scary things at CRTC

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 07:52:29PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote:
> With apologies to those who want this thread dead. I think of GTALUG as  
> a community though, and sometimes it's good for a community to get off  
> topic for a spell.
>
> So long as it stays civil. :)
>
> I feel the need to disagree. Someone's deeply held beliefs inform that  
> persons way of life, opinions and actions. For that reason alone, if not  
> the specific belief, their belief has value.

It may have value to them, but really no relevance to anyone else.

People who base their decisions on beliefs often make very bad decisions.

> An older person I speak to a lot has strong feelings about immigration  
> and cultural integration. I don't believe in any of the Abrahamic  
> religious beliefs, but she does very strongly. By taking into account  
> this, I can frame my views against her beliefs and affect change for the  
> better. Isn't that then valuable?

Trying to understand someone elses point of view can be useful if you
are trying to change their opinions.  That doesn't make their beliefs
valuable.  It makes understanding their beliefs have some value however.

> For many people, particularly in times of extreme hardship, religion can  
> be all they have. Would you tell someone whose belief that their dead  
> children are in heaven that they're being close minded and irrational?  
> You may *think* it, but you wouldn't say it because to that person in  
> such a desperate situation it may be providing the only strength they  
> have to wake in the morning. Again then, it has value, despite your or  
> my views.

No I wouldn't tell them that, but I sure wouldn't agree with it either.
I would probably just ignore them when they say such things.

> My sister-in-law lost her husband, 5 year old daughter and 2 year old  
> son last month to a car accident. It's her belief that they are in  
> heaven than lets her get out of bed. Personally, I can't think of a  
> single "rational" argument that would let me go on at all. Her strength  
> is in her beliefs.

Well that would be hard.  I have no idea how being in heaven possibly
makes things any better.

On the other hand we have a wonderful world out there to explore with
billions of people.  There is a lot to see and learn.

> I don't share those beliefs, and would have no idea how I would go on.  
> In that respect, her beliefs make her stronger than me. From a purely  
> evolutionary perspective then her religious beliefs are more valuable  
> than my rational beliefs. Does that alone not give them value?

Again, her beliefs may have value to her.  They do nothing for others.
Beliefs are personal, and trying to inflict them on others is not a good
thing in general.  When people start making decisions based on beliefs
then almost always cause harm to the world around them.

> Agreed, and it's below a group like GTALUG.
>
> To get back to my point, I think both sides would be well served to  
> listen to each other. Does it not strike you as ironic that both sides  
> in this argument simply dismiss each other? How can anything but crap  
> come from that?

Listening to opinions is useful.  Listening to beliefs rarely is, except
to try and understand someone to potentially change their mind.
Telling people what to believe is what makes so many religions harmful.

> Respect each other, that's all I ask.

Well respect comes in varying amounts depending on your opinion of people.
At least be civil to each other.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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