scary things at CRTC

[Madison Kelly]

With apologies to those who want this thread dead. I think of GTALUG as 
a community though, and sometimes it's good for a community to get off 
topic for a spell.

So long as it stays civil. :)

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 01:37:20PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote:
>> What I meant by this is that when someone simply dismisses someone  
>> else's views, beliefs, opinions or what have you out of hand, it closes  
>> the door on discussion, hurts people's feelings and results in people  
>> getting defensive. (run on sentence much?)
> 
> I will happily listen to peoples views and opinions.  I don't care one
> bit about their beliefs, because those really can't be argued or backed
> up by anything and are hence irrelevant.

I feel the need to disagree. Someone's deeply held beliefs inform that 
persons way of life, opinions and actions. For that reason alone, if not 
the specific belief, their belief has value.

An older person I speak to a lot has strong feelings about immigration 
and cultural integration. I don't believe in any of the Abrahamic 
religious beliefs, but she does very strongly. By taking into account 
this, I can frame my views against her beliefs and affect change for the 
better. Isn't that then valuable?

>> I was raised Catholic and when I left the church I was angry. I mean  
>> Livid. I thought all religion was crap, that it's followers were simply  
>> idiots.
> 
> I think I was vaguely raised protestant.  As I grew up and got a clue
> I realised it was all inconsistent and pointless.

For many people, particularly in times of extreme hardship, religion can 
be all they have. Would you tell someone whose belief that their dead 
children are in heaven that they're being close minded and irrational? 
You may *think* it, but you wouldn't say it because to that person in 
such a desperate situation it may be providing the only strength they 
have to wake in the morning. Again then, it has value, despite your or 
my views.

>> It wasn't until I calmed the heck down and actually *talked* to people  
>> of various faiths that I was able to see the value in religion. I still  
>> have no time for the organizations behind major religions, but  
>> individual people's faith I can respect, if not agree with.
> 
> I don't think religion has any value that can't equaly be provided through
> communities that have nothing to do with believe or faith or any other
> religious aspects.  This is not to say religion doesn't provide that
> value, just that I don't think providing that value does anything to
> overcome the harm it causes.  Perhaps someone could explain what value
> it does provide (preferably value which couldn't be provided without
> the religious bits).

My sister-in-law lost her husband, 5 year old daughter and 2 year old 
son last month to a car accident. It's her belief that they are in 
heaven than lets her get out of bed. Personally, I can't think of a 
single "rational" argument that would let me go on at all. Her strength 
is in her beliefs.

I don't share those beliefs, and would have no idea how I would go on. 
In that respect, her beliefs make her stronger than me. From a purely 
evolutionary perspective then her religious beliefs are more valuable 
than my rational beliefs. Does that alone not give them value?

>> That's all I was trying to get at. Talk to people who believe things you  
>> don't, don't simply shut them down with petty name calling.
> 
> As I said above, belief really isn't relevant.  It has nothing to do
> with facts and has no way to be argued.
> 
> Name calling is unnecesary of course.

Agreed, and it's below a group like GTALUG.

To get back to my point, I think both sides would be well served to 
listen to each other. Does it not strike you as ironic that both sides 
in this argument simply dismiss each other? How can anything but crap 
come from that?

Respect each other, that's all I ask.

Madi
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists