[GTALUG] brands matter; Lenovo's brands

[David Mason]

As one of those academics (in Computer Science, no less), I use a Macbook
Pro that I connect to a Dell widescreen at work, and a Phillips 328E1 4K
widescreen at home, which I mostly using in Landscape mode. It's
blisteringly fast, works everywhere, runs forever (like 1/2 a day) on
battery, and has all the software available that I could want (almost
completely FOSS). It's not Linux, but it's Unix in a terminal window. The
majority of my colleagues run Macs, with Windows and Linux about tied for
the rest. My machine was a bit pricey, but many people have Macbook Airs,
which are also great at a great pricepoint.

My servers all run Linux, and I used a Linux laptop until (a) my Linux
wouldn't connect to a projector at a conference, and (b) Apple put Unix
under the GUI. So I've been a happy Mac/Linux user for 2 decades.

../Dave

On Sun, 17 Sept 2023 at 16:01, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk at gtalug.org>
wrote:

> | From: Peter King via talk <talk at gtalug.org>
>
> A wonderfully clear and evocative elegy!
> All rational.
>
> | To: D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk at gtalug.org>
> | Cc: Peter King <peter.king at utoronto.ca>
> | Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 13:11:24 -0400
> | Subject: Re: [GTALUG] brands matter; Lenovo's brands
> |
> | All points about brands/branding noted and appreciated.  I got the Lenovo
> | Legion T5 because I wanted a desktop, and it seemed to me that the niche
> for
> | high-quality and well-built desktops -- what used to be called
> "enterprise" or
> | "business" models -- had largely collapsed, being supplanted by either
> | high-end laptops that business users would tote around and if necessary
> plug
> | into a docking station, or by cheap consumer-grade desktops that were
> shoddily
> | built, under-powered, and meant to be thrown away in a few years (more
> | economical than investing in long-lasting hardware that would be
> outmoded too
> | quickly).  So what is someone who wants a good desktop unit to do?
>
> I don't mean to push Lenovo.  I pick them to discuss because I'm slightly
> more familiar with them (mostly on paper).
>
> As far as I can tell, there are still full-sized business towers.  Here's
> a page from Lenovo.
>
> <
> https://www.lenovo.com/ca/lenovopro/en/desktops/subseries-results/?visibleDatas=1033%3ATower%2CTower%25C2%25A0&sortBy=bestSelling
> >
>
> They aren't particularly inexpensive.  Some might be missing important
> features.  I favour AMD processors but they are under-represented.  None
> is offered with Linux.
>
> Interestingly, they include your model (newer variants).
>
> Lenovo has a separate category "Workstation".  It includes desktop
> ThinkStations and notebook ThinkPads.
> <
> https://www.lenovo.com/ca/lenovopro/en/d/deals/workstations/?sortBy=priceUp&visibleDatas=1035%3AThinkStation
> >
>
> Some of their servers (ThinkServer) look a lot like "desktops" (towers
> that go under desks):
> <
> https://www.lenovo.com/ca/lenovopro/en/d/deals/servers/?tabkey=Server%20%26%20Storage%20Deals
> >
> The one inexpensive model has a Celeron processor.
>
> ======================
>
> Perhaps you are inferring too much about the quality of your Legion box
> from a few datapoints.
>
> ==============================
>
> My desktop is a decade old (HP Envy).  The only things I changed inside
> the box in that time (mostly in the first year):
>
> - replaced the GPU (to drive my high resolution displays)
>
> - added RAM
>
> - added an SSD
>
> For my next desktop, I expect to live with the iGPU.  That leaves disk
> bays the only issue with SFF or smaller boxes.
>
> Personally, I don't really fill up modern disks (they are big!).  I do
> want backups, but they need to be separate from the computer anyway.
>
> | A few years ago one of my desktop units failed.  I replaced it with a
> miniPC,
> | a minisform model I put more RAM and two 2TB SSDs into, and it runs just
> | fine.  Maybe that is the way to go.
>
> Ah, so you are quite familiar with that form factor.
>
> |   (I have a portable high-resolution LCD
> | screen now, and I think I'll eventually just carry around miniPCs rather
> than
> | laptops.)
>
> A laptop really is more portable than mini PC + display + keyboard +
> mouse.
>
> | But then again I also have a 14-year-old ThinkPad that still runs
> | like a dream once I put in an SSD; one of the last models with the
> "real" IBM
> | keyboard in it.
>
> 14 year old laptops have processors that use a lot of power when
> sleeping.
> Kind of annoying in a laptop.  They probably don't have USB 3, also
> annoying.  They don't have good displays.  They are surely heavy.  They
> won't have HDMI-out.  The DisplayPort probably cannot drive UltraHD.  By
> now, the battery is probably worn out and it isn't easy to get decent
> replacements.  The oldest processors generation that I'm happy to use in
> notebooks is "Haswell" (launched 10 years ago).
>
> We still use a ThinkPad T530 (Ivy Bridge), but always plugged in and
> without an external monitor.
>
> | Perhaps mistakenly, I thought that the combination of new hardware with
> the
> | rough requirements gamers have for their machines -- able to be run hard
> for
> | long periods of time, for instance -- would give me durability and was
> the
> | Next Best Thing to the trouble of actually assembling a desktop machine
> | myself.  (I actually like to build computers, but I just don't have the
> time
> | these days, unfortunately.) Seems I was wrong, or at least wrong that
> this
> | model from Lenovo would be like that.
>
> Reasonable.  One has to look at what makes a cheap model cheap.  What
> corners are cut?  What proprietary things make replacement / upgrade hard?
>
> But you have to ask the same question about business desktops too.  The
> sheet metal is likely of a higher gauge, but they still may put in
> proprietary traps.  I have old Dell business computers that require you to
> buy extra "sleds" to install more hard drives (why??) and those have all
> the problems of proprietary bits.  They often have lovely tool-less
> access to all the parts.
>
> I have a ThinkCentre M75s to which I added an NVMe drive.  But I cannot
> easily source the odd gizmo that is a support and heat sink for it (I have
> faked it).
>
> | I didn't even consider ThinkCentres, which word-of-mouth had rated as
> | overpriced and underpowered, and in any event I wanted (and still want)
> an
> | extremely reliable machine that I can re-use my 3.5" spinning disks in
> along
> | with other desktop-sized hardware.  My three desktops are located in
> different
> | offices, and they make a mini-cloud of backups etc.
>
> I don't buy new ThinkCentres.  I opportunistically buy used ones -- not a
> quick process.  Underpowered only matters up to a point.  My decade old i7
> is actually fast enough for me.
>
> Having lots of drive bays isn't something that desktops do.  Servers,
> maybe.  You probably need a bespoke system (i.e. made to order).
>
> | Most of my academic colleagues took an entirely different route -- by and
> | large they use a high-end laptop as their main computer, and either go
> for a
> | docking-station setup or just use a cheap "business" desktop for
> email/web
> | work, a reversal of the old approach where the laptop was for light duty
> and
> | the desktop for serious work.
>
> Quite sensible.  But a bit wasteful: you have to replace the whole
> computer when the weakest component pinches.
>
> | I am not a market of one (yet).  But there are times when it is starting
> to
> | feel that way.  And not working in tech, I don't hear what's current,
> whose
> | machines are reliable, and the sort of unwritten lore that would help
> inform
> | sensible purchasing choices.
> |
> | I suspect this list of desiderata would apply to many in this group:
> |
> |  - reliable and long-lived
> |
> |  - user-upgradeable and user-fixable
> |
> |  - high storage capacity
> |
> |  - fast, or fast enough for work purposes
> |
> |  - able to manipulate high-end graphics (and sometimes high-end audio)
> files
>
> No longer mainstream:
> - 5.25" bays (optical drives; 5.25" floppies).
> - 3.5" bays (hard drives)
> - 2.5" bays (laptop HDDs, older SSDs)
>
> Only these internal expansion capabilities remain:
> - PCIe slots (video cards, a few after-market expansion card)
> - m.2 slots (NVMe drives, WiFi / BlueTooth cards)
> - DIMM / SODIMM slots for RAM (endangered)
>
> The "user-fixable" requirement is clearly not binary.  You might want
> to be a bit flexible on this because it's not a good use of your time
> on an academic treadmill.
>
> | Things I don't need are: high framerate, portability, small form-factor,
> | Windows, the latest wireless speed standard, anything more than ordinary
> | ethernet, optical disks.  I can plug in USB peripherals for keyboard,
> mouse,
> | portable devices, or even optical disks.  I can even use offboard DAC
> high-end
> | audio over USB, which works quite well.  I have thought about building a
> NAS
> | system, to reduce my need for local high-capacity storage, but every
> time I
> | look into it, the plethora of software choices and the difficulty of
> | configuring a server to do what is normally done locally makes me just,
> well,
> | give up.
>
> The paradox of choice.
>
> You can buy NASes off the shelf.  For our household, I bought a few
> many years ago.  Now they are no longer supported, even though the
> hardware is fine.  In future, we'll roll our own so that they won't
> get orphaned.
>
> William Park made a good point: why not skip the NAS.
>
> | Essentially, for a desktop unit I want a server-type machine that is also
> | capable of working with large graphics images, mostly static.  I don't
> think
> | there is anything like that for general sale, and so it isn't just
> branding --
> | it's having enough people to sustain a market for such a product.
>
> What aspect of "server type" do you require?
>
> I think that almost any machine these days is capable of working with
> large graphics images, mostly static.
>
> You might want to think hard about how many 3.5" drive bays you want.
> You can get HDDs with really high capacities these days.  It isn't
> obvious to me that RAID works well with drives that big.
>
> | For that matter, I far prefer manual transmission in cars, but that's a
> | preference that is hard to sustain these days.  Fortunately that's just a
> | preference and not a matter of work.
>
> Manual exists but makes less sense when the automatics get similar or
> better fuel economy.  And EV's are a whole different kettle of fish.
>
> | Thanks to everyone for all the reflections; there is more to the problem
> than
> | I was properly aware of.  Today I will open up the Legion and see how
> | easy/difficult it is to replace the CMOS battery and to bypass the
> high-end
> | graphics card.  The saga continues.
>
> I hope that went well.---
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