[OT] Public Transit

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 10:56:52AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> | From: James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>
> 
> | The problem is no matter how much public transit there is, there will still be
> | a need for roads.  For many, public transit is simply not an option.
> 
> Not really.  Sure roads are necessary but we already have them.
> 
> The question is: how much road capacity do we need.
> 
> Since using the roads is kind of free (if you already have a car and
> ignore the cost of gas), the limitation that kicks in is capacity.
> 
> If we priced the use of roads and users were rational, we could reduce
> traffic to the extent that it would not cause slowdowns.  I'm *not*
> saying that that is the right choice, just that it is possible.

I am not sure road tolls in London has helped traffic very much.  I am
sure the city makes good money on it though.  Hopefully some of that
money is being used to improve transit.

> | Regardless, Toronto's public transit would be much better, if so many plans
> | hadn't been killed over the years.
> 
> I think so.  But an unimplemented plan hasn't been tested: some could
> have turned out to be bad.
> 
> Some of the weaknesses of getting to a good subway system:
> 
> - deserves careful design, rather than politically motivated approaches
>   (It isn't at all clear to me that the route to York has been
>   justified on the basis of traffic, current or projected.  I have
>   suspicions of how it got done.)

York university has a lot of students.  A stupid amount of them commute
by car because transit in the area is so awful.

> - is awesomely expensive (a billion dollars for a mile or two?).  I
>   think it creates value (eg. real estate value) but the government
>   hasn't been able to figure out how to capture enough of this to
>   finance the building.  So folks on a subway (like me!) are being
>   subsidized by folks elsewhere (like Cornerbrook or Kamloops).

Yes it is.  And Ford thinks building more subways in places where light
rail is an option is a good idea?  Save subways for places where it is
the only option.

> - it has a tremendous lead-time.  You cannot solve current problems by
>   building a subway.  You don't actually know the needs by the time
>   the system is delivered.  With luck, the promise of a subway can
>   cause the appropriate adjustment of development in the area served
>   (e.g. perhaps in Vaughan with the new extension).

All the subway extensions they are planning to build should be in use
already.  They are years behind in building a proper transit system in
the GTA.  Why does it need to take so many years to build?  I thought
we had lots of unemployed people looking for work.  Let them help.

> - subways are not flexible.  Bus routes are much easier to add or
>   change (assuming you can grab existing road capacity).

Busses are also affected by cars in many cases unfortunately, which
makes them very unreliable for commuting.  Now if you have dedicated
roads for them as some places do (and the dedicated power line corridor
up to york university is a great idea.  They should make more of those),
then you can do well and busses can be very cheap, although I do wonder
if paved roads cost more or less than train tracks.

> - our current system doesn't scale.  Some "express" system is needed
>   if it is to service a larger area.
> 
>   Even in the current system this shows: downtown subway stops are
>   very comfortably spaced for pedestrians but that's not true at the
>   north end: the stops are one concession apart (except for the North
>   York City Centre add-on).
> 
>   (The 1.25mi concession grid structure of much of Ontario dates back
>   to Governor Simcoe!)
> 
> - the current system feels shabby and the seats are too narrow for many.  
>   During rush hour, the trains are uncomfortably crowded.
>   The result is that many middle-class people feel that the subway
>   isn't for them.
> 
> - cars are mass produced.  Transit equipment seems to be custom made
>   and hence a lot more expensive.  See, for example, what the auditor
>   general said about the Canadian helicopter purchases: prices went up
>   (roughly) a factor of two for what appear to be minor upgrades.
> 
> - during an individual trip, the cost in time and convenience of switching 
>   between a bus and a subway is way too high.  As a contrast, I find 
>   switching between the Spadina streetcar and the subway to have much less 
>   overhead.

Certainly.  Actually at some of the newer stations bus to subway and
vice versa is quite good.  Don Mills station (much as it appears highly
under used) is very nice for changing to and from busses.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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