David, please tell me you weren't part of this...

[Jamon Camisso]

Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> Jamon Camisso wrote:
>> We distributed over 100 cds and people were begging for more.
> I used to love my old steady supply of AOL floppies and CDs, they made
> for great coasters.
> 
> Just because people love getting free stuff doesn't mean that a single
> one of those CDs is going to make its way onto someone's computer. But
> hey, it's your dime...

If 1% of those makes it into someone's computer, I think everyone 
involved would be happy. I know that 2 of the 3 police officers who were 
there walked away with CDS and all three actually knew about Linux and 
wanted to try the livecd. Now we're at 3% and that doesn't include the 
fellow who won a copy of Vista only to find that his system wouldn't run 
all that well with it and took an Ubuntu cd with great enthusiasm. My 
bet is anywhere from 5-10%.

> Well, all attempts to promote the event as a publicity stunt
> (accurately) mentioned that it was Ubuntu pulling the stunt. The CRN
> article may have tried to tar the broader community with the associated
> immaturity, and it indeed was the only publicity generated by the event
> outside of that generated by the participants themselves.

Because it was an Ubuntu effort. But then I don't think that most 
publicity just falls into people's laps. Moreover, I think that the 550+ 
digg users who weighed in on the event would agree.

We've got a few new subscribers to the ubuntu-ca mailing list because of 
it, so I think the goal of promoting Linux (Ubuntu or otherwise) was 
achieved. I recruited two new TLUG members too, they might even pay for 
a membership :)

> Talk about condescention. Many people on this list -- including some
> with the worst criticisms of this dumb event -- have done more than
> their share of "face time". I for one am personally responsible for
> getting more than 3,000 Caldera CDs into the Toronto area more then a
> decade ago, back at a time when every distributed CD had to be
> accompanied by a lengthy description of what "this Lie-nux thing" was.
> Many other folks here have done at least as much, at the Toronto Linux
> Centre on Eastern Avenue, the National Installfest and other events that
> really had lasting effect.

If I was condescending, I apologize, it wasn't intended. It's easy to be 
overly flippant and terse when there was so much negative feedback, 
especially after standing in the cold for 3 hours.

We got the same question as you too: what is Linux? Quite a few people 
sort of knew already. 3,000 is great, hopefully we can get a few 
thousand free Ubuntu discs to hand out too, at the caffe and at Ubuntu 
Toronto meetings and local events (there's talk of a Linuxworld or 
it360 or whatever it'll be called this year both). I'd be happy to hand 
out Fedora Core discs as well.

> So please spare the johnny-come-lately lectures on the value of face
> time. Don't parrot the Ubuntu sentiment that they're inventing Linux
> advocacy.

In 5 years of living in Toronto, the last few events of this year and 
the linuxcaffe itself are the best examples of face time I've seen. 
Maybe I live under a larger than average sized rock, but I'm pretty sure 
that as far as talking to normal people (not suits), right now Ubuntu 
Canada is it for Toronto. TLUG haven't been doing much advocacy from 
what I've seen. So instead of waiting or trying to integrate or 
cooperate, especially on short notice, it seems that sometimes it's just 
easier to go ahead and just do something where others are not. Anything, 
especially with inflatables.

Ubuntu aren't inventing advocacy at all, but they're certainly doing 
something for it. Jono Bacon of Lugradio was hired by Canonical because 
of his advocacy work for example. He's someone who was working in the 
broader advocacy community in the UK that Canonical valued enough to put 
on salary. No mean feat. Maybe he just wanted a job, but his enthusiasm 
and passion for Ubuntu has convinced a few friends of mine to try it out.

>> But I think you fail to see what Ubuntu is doing for Linux. Just as
>> Stallman was and is rightly pissed about Linux overshadowing GNU,
>> Ubuntu may be doing the same in part for Linux.
> Good lord these guys are full of themselves, aren't they? Please don't
> take this personally, Jamon, but if you truly believe this you need some
> serious schooling on the history of Linux.

You'll note the modal verb "may" in that last sentence. It denotes two 
things: first my opinion that there is a parallel to be considered; 
second, the epistemological uncertainty of said statement in my mind. 
Also, by these guys are you referring to myself or the group (which has 
a number of female members)? Additionally, you forget that I'm a recent 
Fedora user.

You might be curious to know that of the people we spoke to at the 
event, many had heard of Ubuntu, but not Linux. Many had of course heard 
only of Linux. But go figure.

> There isn't a single tactic being trotted out -- except for the
> CD-mailed-anywhere thing funded out of Shuttleworth's pocket -- that
> hasn't been used by other advocates for many, many years. Ubuntu is at
> best a refinement of work already been done, it is certainly not the
> reinvention -- let alone the revolution -- that its cheerleaders claim.
> It is right now the leader (in certain criteria) amongst a crowded field
> of distributions, it is certainly a fine piece of work and currently my
> distro of choice. But it is no giant leap in technology or process from
> the rest of the pack. Unfortunately its cheerleaders, in the pitiful
> belief that their baby is indeed a breed apart from everything else, are
> rapidly alienating the greater community. The relationship between
> Ubuntu Toronto and TLUG (ie, there is no relationship) is typical. Is
> the fact that "F*ck Ubuntu" t-shirts are common at Debian meetings a
> source of pride? If you dismiss that as petty jealousy, you'd be wrong.

Nothing comes along all that often that isn't a mere incremental 
improvement. It has been leading for a while now, and may well be 
overtaken at some point in the near or distant future. But for now, you 
can be sure that no one in the Ubuntu camp is going to let up.

Is the greater community (by which I assume you mean FOSS in Toronto) 
what Ubuntu Canada/Toronto is after? I think not. Being a recognized 
team by Canonical frames the group's advocacy work in terms of small 
scale projects since the group is still small.

The audience Ubuntu/Canonical is after as a whole is the desktop first 
and foremost at the moment, though it has made excellent inroads with 
the server market too (SPARC). I think Canonical is going after the 
desktop user and hoping that that will carry over into support contracts 
and general use on workstations and servers. I think the going marketing 
term for the approach is "grassroots".

That disdained pitiful belief is what some might call dogged idealism, 
and from our familiarity with history, and by virtue of using GNU/Linux, 
I think we have an implicit respect and understanding of what such 
persistence and vision can accomplish, so let's not dismiss the current 
optimism (or fanboyishness if you would prefer) out of hand.

Nor would I dismiss the Debian developers' concerns at all. Nor does 
Canonical from what I can tell. From Mark Shuttleworth's blog:
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/56

"I’m of the opinion that Ubuntu could not exist without Debian. So it’s 
absolutely my intention to see that Ubuntu is a constructive part of the 
broader Debian landscape. It’s vital that Ubuntu help to sustain and 
grow Debian, because it’s the breadth and strength of Debian which make 
up the “shoulders of greatness” on which we in the Ubuntu community 
stand when we reach for the stars."

> I guess we're not reading the same magazines. From my POV, Linux is now
> a cornerstone of the product strategies of IBM, Novell and Oracle. It's
> on track for submission as an ISO standard for operating systems, with
> equal status to POSIX. It's being suggested by analysts as a worthy
> alternative to a Vista upgrade, and is a source of increasing employment
> for its practitioners. It's still not for everyone -- especially those
> who want a great games machine -- but it's of value to a steadily
> increasing proportion of PC users. Writers like Marcel have been helping
> Linux be more accessible to the masses long before Ubuntu was a gleam in
> Mark Shuttleworth's eye.

As a potential new user who I've just stopped on the street, I mention 
ISO standard and a computer, POSIX, IBM, Novell, or Oracle, and eyes are 
glazed over already. Those names have nothing to do (from the potential 
user's perspective) with the day to day interaction with their email, 
internet and wordprocessing and video/music enjoyment.

> So no, I don't think it's largely academic.

No we're reading the same magazines, but since the people we were 
talking to (and about) don't even know what Linux is half the time, 
never mind read Linuxjournal, it is academic in this context. It is 
academic to them I think, and counter-productive to add more acronyms 
and names to the mix when first introducing Linux on a person to person 
basis.

I do recall posting on this list a few times extolling the virtues of 
calling it GNU/Linux and how figures like Stallman are necessary, so I'm 
confident in having it both ways here.

What we could use are a few more tempered (read mature, knowledgeable, 
patient, whatever you like) people at any upcoming events like this past 
weekend's. There were quite a few people coming home from work on Yonge, 
and having some people dressed in suits doing PR would be a nice addition.

Maybe some help in the planning stages would be useful too to prevent 
such stupidity of the CRN article (btw, what does making money off 
buying Canadian Tire money have to do at all with Linux!?)

Jamon
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