Officially OT -> Re:My fiscal responcibility...

[James Knott]

J. Schaap wrote:
> On Mon, 2004-05-24 at 13:25, James Knott wrote:
> 
>>J. Schaap wrote:
>>
>>>>"Mnay people have such beliefs, simply because they've been brainwashed
>>>
>>>all their lives with such things."<
>>>
>>>Judging you by your own standards:
>>>
>>>Many people have such *unbeliefs*, simply because they've been
>>>brainwashed all their lives with such things.
>>>
>>
>>OK, where are the proofs that the Bible is not simply a collection of 
>>fiction?  With science, the goal is to continually refine the knowledge, 
>>not simply accept "that's the way it is", unlike religion, where you're 
>>supposed to accept, without question.
>>
> 
> The Old Testament as I see it is a collections of books. One of these
> collections deals with a code of ethics (Law). To teach moral standards
> to the nation of Israel. 
> Can't really call that fiction.
> My religion doesn't allow me to simply accept "that's the way it is"
> without question.

No doubt it is a collection of stories.  And I have never said that 
there wasn't some good in it.  There is, along with some bad.  It's the 
concept of some supreme being that absolute nonsense.  God was created 
by man, not the other way around.

> 
>>One of the principal causes of the dark ages, was the imposition of 
>>ignorance, by the church.  Ever wonder why only the Christian world was 
>>afflicted by that great loss of knowledge?  Ever wonder why the Arab 
>>world flourished back in those days, only to similarly flounder, when 
>>their beliefs became dominant?  A few hundred years ago, it was accepted 
>>knowledge that the world was flat, even though others had earlier proven 
>>otherwise.  The teachings of the church were that the earth was the 
>>center of the universe.  Those falacies and others have fallen, simply 
>>because people such as Galeleo, Coperinicus and others were willing to 
>>stand up to what religion taught as being correct.
> 
> There is such a thing as traditions. The Jewish people according,
> to the New Testament had a problem with that. They had some weird ideas. 
> That also applies to the people in the past and also in this present time.
> These things have nothing to with religion. 
> If the so called "church" would have studied the scriptures they would
> come to the conclusion that the earth is a 'sphere' and hangs on
> nothing. (Book of Job, considered to be thousands of years old).
> Christopher Columbus quoted Isaiah 40:21-22 to prove that the world was
> round: 
> 
> "Do you not know? 
> Have you not heard?
> Has it not been told you from the beginning?
> Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
> He sits enthroned above the 'circle' of the earth, and its people are
> like grasshoppers."

As I recall, Columbus was one of the ones who challanged the common 
"knowledge".

> 
> the word 'circle' here in Hebrew is 'chuwg' which 'sphere'
> 
> The plague in medieval Europe, it has been said, could have been avoided
> if people would have read and understand the scriptures.
>  

And how would that have helped?  The religious leaders of the time sure 
didn't do much to help.

> 
>>Then we get to religious frauds, such as the Shroud of Turin, which for 
>>centuries was held as an article of faith, by the Catholic church, only 
>>to be shown to be the fraud that it was, when science was allowed to be 
>>applied.  The history of religion is full of such deception.  Perhaps 
>>that's because it's entire foundation is fraudulent.
>>
> 
> I would call it the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic church has a
> different meaning to me.
> There are lots of these religious frauds around.
> But then are scientific frauds and history of science is full of
> deception. 
> It is up to us to make a discerned judgement in either religion or
> science. And that is not an easy task.

While the Catholic church is certainly full of such frauds, it's not the 
only religious group that presents such "facts".  You seem to be a 
follower of the Jewish faith.  What do you have that you claim to be 
fact without proof?  Why do you claim it's such?  How do you know, for 
example, that the Torah is not the Jewish equivalent of the shroud? 
What do you have, that establishes it, without doubt, to be the five 
books of Moses?  Or that there was even such a person?  Or is it just a 
collection of stories?  Are you one of those who claim that yours is the 
only "true" belief?

As for science, yes there have been errors and frauds over the years. 
But the whole principle of science, is that it's self correcting. 
Sooner or later those errors or frauds will be found and corrected, as 
has happened many times in the past and will likely continue in the future.

How do you make your judgements about religious "facts"?

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