[GTALUG] Was Re: [browser bitching] Now: considerations for user controlled browser segmentation

[o1bigtenor]

Anyone who understands this topic better (and there are likely lots of you)
please modify the subject!


On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 7:59 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. <apetrie at aspetrie.net>
wrote:

> Please see my comments below.
>
> With apologies for wordiness ...
>
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: o1bigtenor via talk
>>>> To: Alvin Starr ; GTALUG Talk
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:22 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was
>>>> Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Alvin Starr via talk <talk at gtalug.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 12/11/2017 12:29 AM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-12-10 09:50 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> FF57 is much cleaner than before, and is at least as fast as Chrome. You
>>>> can quit FF, then have it restart with all your windows and tabs open.
>>>> The clever part is, it'll only render that tab when it gets focus, so
>>>> you could have hundreds of tabs open yet only a few loaded. So while I'm
>>>> pretty sure it won't fit your needs of an entire Starbucks-load of pages
>>>> in the one browser, it might get a little closer than FF <57.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is that more and more services, systems and applications
>>>> are using HTML as the interface.
>>>> So you will find yourself with pages(tabs) open in your browser instead
>>>> of applications open on your desktop.
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> It sounds like I'm not the only one who has issues with browsers - - -
>>>> thank you!
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it is time that browsers were split into parts that do separate
>>>> things,
>>>> and things that could be managed by the USERS of those browsers rather
>>>> than by the advertising  (I'll use the word people although I would
>>>> much rather
>>>> not include them as such) people that think they do own my desktop.
>>>>
>>>> If the browser coders were actually listening to their users this would
>>>> have
>>>> already been happening!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> It seems to me that there's a clue in the above proposal by Dee, quoted
> here:: "Perhaps it is time that browsers were split into parts that do
> separate things, and things that could be managed by the USERS of those
> browsers rather than by the advertising".
>
> Dee complains when current browser technology is unable to cope gracefully
> with his huge web page workload.
>
> I also suffer a browser resource contraint problem, but mine is due to my
> outdated PC and Internet hookup. 1. use an extremely amcient operating
> system (Win XP SP3 until I get moved to a new PC with debian Linux.), and
> 2. the low bandwidth of my current Internet connection (approx. 46 Kbps
> over landline telephone dial-up modem).
>
> My survivalist approach to using current browsers (FF and Comodo Dragon)
> is to start the desired page (or maybe two or three pages, max.) loading,
> and then I turn my attention to some other task, checking occasionally to
> see if the page(s) has(ve) finished loading the vast quantities of: useless
> eye-candy "rich" content, unwanted adware, great gobs of JavaScript crud, a
> zillion videos I don't care to see, etc., etc.
>
> * * *
> * * *
>
> It seems to me that the clue in Dee's pronouncement that I quoted, is to
> take back control of the page load / display experience from the PROVIDER
> of the page (often an arrogant rich titanic-scale oligarchic zillionaire
> e.g amazon, google) , and give that control back to the CONSUMER of the
> page.
>
> To my way of thinking, regaining browsing control and freedom, begins with
> getting rid of the idea that the web browser is a monolithic opaque black
> box that LOADS AND RENDERS A COMPLETE WEB PAGE AT A TIME. Currently, the
> browser user is faced with an all-or-nothing choice. Either start a page
> loading and wait until the browser has finished loading the entire page, or
> don't try to view that page at all.
>
> I know that browsers do begin to render and display a page in parts,
> before it has all been loaded and rendered internally by the browser. But
> the designer of the browser controls the order of this progressive
> rendering. And the order doesn't usually seem very helpful to me.
>
> * * *
> * * *
>
> If we take Dee's idea: "it is time that browsers were split into parts
> that do separate things, and things that could be managed by the USERS" as
> a guiding principle, what can a browser developer do, to give more control
> and power back to the user of the browser, and prevent the provider of th
> page from dominating the page view esperience ??
>
> WHAT I WOULD LIKE, IS TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL THE WEB BROWSER AT THE LEVEL
> OF INDIVIDUAL ELEMENTS OF HTML ITSELF. I WOULD LIKE THE BROWSER START A
> PAGE LOAD, BY PRESENTING TO ME, A COMPACT AND EASILY-NAVIGABLE
> TREE-STRUCTURED LARGELY TEXTUAL REPRESENTATION OF THE WEB PAGE'S HTML
> STRUCTURE.
>
> Then, I can scroll around to inspect all that nicely formatted and
> coloured HTML textual rep, pick the parts of the page that I think would be
> worthwhile actually loading and rendering, and set the browser loading only
> my chosen few page parts. And I can ask for thumbprints of graphic
> elemesnts that might seem interesting to me, And I can see still shots from
> a huge video / movie, without loading/ playing the whole thing. And I can
> hear sample audio clips.
>
> An even more advanced p'n'c browser, could synthesize "subversive"
> versions of the original web page, guided by the browser user, The
> "subversive": page would load the valuable nuggets, and leave behind
> untouched all the useless intrusive BS that the tech titans like to think
> is twisting our souls into consumerist puppets.
>
> A "subversive" p'n'c-generated web page, would be like the grumpy nasty
> bitchy smelly customer with the bulging shopping buggy, who barges up to
> the counter of the fast food outlet, and demands an X-large Diet Coke WITH
> NO ICE. In other words, I will take the good stuff ONLY, and leave all the
> BS to the next (and more conformist / compliant / wimpsterist) customer.
>
> * * *
> * * *
>
> No doubt, the "dream" of a navigable tree-structured pick'n'choose (p'n'c)
> list rep of an HTML page would be complicated to implement.
>
> And it would need to provide plernty of of hints and help so naive users
> would be able to understand the HTML in simplistic terms.
>
> Some regexp-driven highlighting could help the user in their pick'n'choose
> navigation, too. And the p'n'c browser would come pre-loaded with regexps
> that isolate and exclude lots of recognizeable adware / snoopware crap and
> junk. Google and Amazon, etc. will ABSOLUTELY LOATHE the p'n'c browser and
> that will be a VERY GOOD THING :)
>
>
Preach it brother. I do NOT like my online life being controlled as much as
it is and that controlling appears to be headed for greater levels (see FCC
removal of net neutrality).

> * * *
> * * *
>
> There are text-mode web browsers out there that actually have no GUI, they
> work at a command line prompt. But I decided I couldn't use them because:
> either they offer no Win XP-compatible version, or they are not up to date
> with current HTML technology.
>
> But no doubt, most of the basic building blocks of a p'n'c browser are
> already available in open source libraries. So, the task of building the
> p'n'c browser would be more of an integration challenge than a greenfield
> coding challenge.
>
> An interesting axample of the kind of technololgy that could be harnessed
> in a p'n'c browser, crossed my eyes today:
> ===
> Headless Chrome and the Puppeteer Library for Scraping and Testing the
> Web   Wednesday 29 November
> http://www.i-programmer.info/news/87/11344.html
>
> With the advent of Single Page Applications, scraping pages for
> information as well as running automated user interaction tests has become
> much harder due to its highly dynamic nature. The solution? Headless Chrome
> and the Puppeteer library.
> ...
> There's just one caveat. Since CDP only works with Chromium, Chrome and
> other Blink-based browsers, so does Puppeteer. If you require more than
> that, then sticking to Selenium and its WebDriver API still remains the
> best option..
> ===
>
> The Selenium WebDriver API might be a useful code base to be considered,
> in the design of the p'n'c "subversive incremental load" browser ...
>
> My 2 cents worth.


OK - - - so any suggestions out there on how to achieve this, at least IMO
worthy goal?

Dee
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://gtalug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20171215/4af9686a/attachment.html>