[GTALUG] unwinding confusing quoting [was Re: 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again!]
D. Hugh Redelmeier
hugh at mimosa.com
Sun Jul 24 12:12:54 EDT 2016
Note: this is top-posted for completeness
TL;DR: sloppy quoting has confused people, wasted their time,
and hurt some feelings. Careful quoting matters.
There is some confusion on the thread about why people might be
unsubscribing because <something>.
I think this confusion could have been avoided through better quoting.
Here's my tentative analysis:
1. Len's post.
Not top-posted (good).
Response immediately following what it is responding to (good).
Could be improved by trimming things not being responded to.
2. Evan's wide-ranging reply to Len.
Top-posted, so reader cannot tell what he was actually responding to.
I felt much was not actually a response at all.
In particular, I'm guessing that this line is the one relevant
to the mystery.
| "Real men don't use HTML email"?.... pfffft. Get over it.
This does not seem to be a response to anything actually in Len's
message. But it is couched as a snide response to Len.
3. Myles' reply to Evan.
Not top-posted (good).
Bungled quoting: his reply includes a copy of itself, attributed to Evan.
Luckily it was only one level or we'd have an infinite message.
This is what other folks are startled by:
| Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time
| this discussion is bought out and beaten to death.
We have no clue what Myles is responding to since the quoting was
bungled. But I'm pretty sure that it was the comment about HTML.
[snide] Was this worth bring up? I guess so if we wish to beat it
to death again, losing another 3-5 members. [/snide] This is the
second way in which Myles' message is self-referential. Kind of
interesting.
4. William's reply to Myles.
Not top posted (good).
Quotes Myles' misquote of Evan, perpetuating that mistake.
He asks why people are leaving the list due to the discussion of
<something>. He probably thinks Myles' comment was aimed at him
for starting this thread.
| Why? We're giving them valuable informations from personal experience.
I think that his reasonable interpretation is wrong. I don't think
that he actually was being criticised.
At least six other posters (and an unknown number of readers) were
confused by this. Including Evan!
Here are the original messages, without editing of the content:
| From: Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk at gtalug.org>
| To: GTALUG Talk <talk at gtalug.org>
| Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 10:24:08 -0400
| Subject: Re: [GTALUG] 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again!
|
| On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 10:56:12PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote:
| > Where do I begin... First, what's good:
| >
| > 1. Calendar. Since it's so tightly integrated with Google Calendar,
| > adding/editing entry is so easy. Of course, assuming that author of
| > the webpage uses Google link. Then, you click, select "Copy to
| > William Park", then I'm on my Google Calendar, finally "Save".
| >
| > 2. Just checking email. I can check my Yahoo and Gmail account from
| > cell phone and Chromebook. It's simply as clicking icon, and you're
| > automatically logged in, and then swipe up and down to see new
| > emails.
| >
| > Now, what's bad:
| >
| > 1. Typing.
| >
| > Cell phone's 2.5" wide keyboard is just non-starter for me.
| > That's even with
| > - auto-completion,
| > - letter swiping -- instead of typing each key, you move
| > your finger on the screen, from key to key without lifting
| > from the screen, and
| > - voice recognition -- this was better than I expected.
| >
| > Chomebook's keyboard has 2.2mm key travel, so is better than
| > most laptop actually. But, you don't have full keyboard. It
| > took me long time to find out <Alt-Backspace> is <Delete>.
| > Who's going memorize all these combinations,
| > <https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/183101?hl=en>
|
| Well the keyboard on my BB Classic works quite well.
|
| > 2. Multitasking.
| >
| > On desktop, I can move here and there, forward and backward,
| > terminal here and there, etc. On Chromebook, it was difficult
| > to move about. Non-starter on cell phone, of course.
|
| BB OS 10 seems to actually multitask quite well and switching between
| programs is quite simple and fast. Having played some with my wife's
| Nexus 5 I can say android sucks at it.
|
| So it can be done, unfortunately it seems no one wants the phone OS that
| has actually done it well.
|
| > 3. Storage.
| >
| > No local storage. Cell phone and Chromebook are not meant to be
| > substitute for real computer. They are designed for people who
| > don't do real work on computer.
|
| Yeah internal storage or SD card is probably not as good.
|
| > 4. Screen.
| >
| > LG Nexus 5X has 5.7" 1920x1080 screen, same as full desktop
| > monitor. But, because of small size and lack of "mouse", it's
| > not really useable. You spend too much time, zooming in/out.
| > Because it's cell phone, I get automatically redirected to
| > "mobile" site with shitty interface.
| >
| > Chromebook is a little better, 11.5" 1366x768. It's ok for
| > searching Google or Wiki, online shopping, and banking.
|
| I just have a 720x720 screen, but I also have a trackpoint for navigating
| which works a lot better than trying to move the cursor with a finger
| on the screen.
|
| > These are just expensive toys.
|
| They are for consumers. That is people who consume content, not people
| who create it. If you want to write an email or other message you are
| creating content, and who does that these days. :)
|
| --
| Len Sorensen
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk at gtalug.org>
| To: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense at csclub.uwaterloo.ca>, GTALUG Talk <talk at gtalug.org>
| Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 15:51:25 +0200
| Subject: Re: [GTALUG] 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again!
|
| Sheesh, sometimes in this list feel like I'm in a retirement home sitting
| around a circle of people complaining about Elvis and self-serve elevators.
|
| "Real men don't use HTML email"?.... pfffft. Get over it.
|
| These days email makes up but a fraction of my digital communications, and
| most of that is either mailing lists, or Outlook/Exchange from work because
| that's how they work .... Skype, Hangouts, SMS, and social media posts
| enable immediate response and don't need aggressive spam filters. Not every
| communications calls for the same tool.
|
| As for typing, give me a break. I can enter text on a screen without taking
| my finger off the glass, (using the free Swiftkey kb) at least as fast as I
| could ever do on a real keyboard (which was, honestly, never too fast to
| start with). The innovations here are coming from mobile, not the end of an
| RS-232 cable.
|
| The only times where I really like a full keyboard and pointer is for
| typing long documents, and creating things that require greater pointing
| precision than the tip of my finger (which, in my case, mean a Cherry Brown
| keyboard and trackball instead of mouse). But such creative work takes but
| a fraction of my total time interfacing with computing devices.
|
| And as for "ooh, that's a CONSUMER device".... expressed in any field,
| such an attitude does little but reveal elitist snobbery in the speaker. A
| Samsung phone in the hands of a good photographer will produce more
| desirable results than a dork with a Hasselblad.
|
|
|
| On 20 July 2016 at 16:24, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk at gtalug.org> wrote:
|
| > On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 10:56:12PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote:
| > > Where do I begin... First, what's good:
| > >
| > > 1. Calendar. Since it's so tightly integrated with Google Calendar,
| > > adding/editing entry is so easy. Of course, assuming that author of
| > > the webpage uses Google link. Then, you click, select "Copy to
| > > William Park", then I'm on my Google Calendar, finally "Save".
| > >
| > > 2. Just checking email. I can check my Yahoo and Gmail account from
| > > cell phone and Chromebook. It's simply as clicking icon, and you're
| > > automatically logged in, and then swipe up and down to see new
| > > emails.
| > >
| > > Now, what's bad:
| > >
| > > 1. Typing.
| > >
| > > Cell phone's 2.5" wide keyboard is just non-starter for me.
| > > That's even with
| > > - auto-completion,
| > > - letter swiping -- instead of typing each key, you move
| > > your finger on the screen, from key to key without lifting
| > > from the screen, and
| > > - voice recognition -- this was better than I expected.
| > >
| > > Chomebook's keyboard has 2.2mm key travel, so is better than
| > > most laptop actually. But, you don't have full keyboard. It
| > > took me long time to find out <Alt-Backspace> is <Delete>.
| > > Who's going memorize all these combinations,
| > > <https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/183101?hl=en>
| >
| > Well the keyboard on my BB Classic works quite well.
| >
| > > 2. Multitasking.
| > >
| > > On desktop, I can move here and there, forward and backward,
| > > terminal here and there, etc. On Chromebook, it was difficult
| > > to move about. Non-starter on cell phone, of course.
| >
| > BB OS 10 seems to actually multitask quite well and switching between
| > programs is quite simple and fast. Having played some with my wife's
| > Nexus 5 I can say android sucks at it.
| >
| > So it can be done, unfortunately it seems no one wants the phone OS that
| > has actually done it well.
| >
| > > 3. Storage.
| > >
| > > No local storage. Cell phone and Chromebook are not meant to be
| > > substitute for real computer. They are designed for people who
| > > don't do real work on computer.
| >
| > Yeah internal storage or SD card is probably not as good.
| >
| > > 4. Screen.
| > >
| > > LG Nexus 5X has 5.7" 1920x1080 screen, same as full desktop
| > > monitor. But, because of small size and lack of "mouse", it's
| > > not really useable. You spend too much time, zooming in/out.
| > > Because it's cell phone, I get automatically redirected to
| > > "mobile" site with shitty interface.
| > >
| > > Chromebook is a little better, 11.5" 1366x768. It's ok for
| > > searching Google or Wiki, online shopping, and banking.
| >
| > I just have a 720x720 screen, but I also have a trackpoint for navigating
| > which works a lot better than trying to move the cursor with a finger
| > on the screen.
| >
| > > These are just expensive toys.
| >
| > They are for consumers. That is people who consume content, not people
| > who create it. If you want to write an email or other message you are
| > creating content, and who does that these days. :)
| >
| > --
| > Len Sorensen
| > ---
| > Talk Mailing List
| > talk at gtalug.org
| > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
| >
|
|
|
| --
| Evan Leibovitch
| Geneva, CH
|
| Em: evan at telly dot org
| Sk: evanleibovitch
| Tw: el56
|
|
|
| [ Part 2: "Attached Text" ]
| From: Myles Braithwaite via talk <talk at gtalug.org>
| To: GTALUG Talk <talk at gtalug.org>
| Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:02:09 -0400
| Subject: Re: [GTALUG] 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again!
|
| Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
| > Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>.
| >
| > Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time
| > this discussion is on the list. Which makes it toxic to our community.
|
| Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>.
|
| Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time
| this discussion is bought out and beaten to death.
| ---
| Talk Mailing List
| talk at gtalug.org
| https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
|
|
| From talk at gtalug.org Sat Jul 23 09:27:50 2016
| From: William Park via talk <talk at gtalug.org>
| To: talk at gtalug.org
| Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 09:27:33 -0400
| Subject: Re: [GTALUG] 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again!
| Reply-To: William Park <opengeometry at yahoo.ca>, GTALUG Talk <talk at gtalug.org>
|
| On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 10:02:09AM -0400, Myles Braithwaite via talk wrote:
| > Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
| > > Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>.
| > >
| > > Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time
| > > this discussion is on the list. Which makes it toxic to our community.
| >
| > Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>.
| >
| > Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time
| > this discussion is bought out and beaten to death.
|
| Why? We're giving them valuable informations from personal experience.
| --
| William
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