From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 1 04:17:05 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 23:17:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | | From: William Muriithi | | | http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/nsas-ant-division-catalog-of-exploits-for-nearly-every-major-software-hardware-firmware/ | I've stopped reading for now, at about half way down. | | All these revelations seem to be from about 2007. Who knows what they | are up to now. Reading more... Some are as recent as 2009. SWAP provides "software application persistence" by exploiting the BIOS and the HDD's Host Protected Area. Works with Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, or Solaris (as of 2007). Cottonmouth (I, II, and III) are USB plugs that contain network exfiltration capability. Ragemaster is a little thing that you put in a VGA cable that captures the red signal and makes it available for exfiltration via a RADAR unit. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 1 22:21:16 2014 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 17:21:16 -0500 Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > | All these revelations seem to be from about 2007. Who knows what they > | are up to now. > > Reading more... > > Some are as recent as 2009. Correct, had planned to mention that yesterday after reading your previous mail. > > SWAP provides "software application persistence" by exploiting the > BIOS and the HDD's Host Protected Area. Works with Windows, Linux, > FreeBSD, or Solaris (as of 2007). > > Cottonmouth (I, II, and III) are USB plugs that contain network > exfiltration capability. > > Ragemaster is a little thing that you put in a VGA cable that captures > the red signal and makes it available for exfiltration via a RADAR > unit. Another odd thing about these attacks is they seem mostly aimed at corporate products. Don't seem to make sense, as terrorist activity are unlikely to happen in office networks. Weird. Apple products are missing in the list. Looks like this has to do with dumping BIOS for EFI earlier. I think EFI is more bloated so may already be compromised in updated list . The only good news is it seem the vendors are not working with them. This mean they pick a victim, send someone to break into the premise discretely and plant the bug. Or is there anyway on can infect BIOS of a running system? Or what is their delivery method in your opinion? Regards William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 1 22:49:03 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 17:49:03 -0500 Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52C49B5F.3080003@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 William Muriithi wrote: > The only good news is it seem the vendors are not working with > them. This mean they pick a victim, send someone to break into the > premise discretely and plant the bug. The spokespeople who talked to the press have no knowledge of cooperation, and it is likely that the senior execs have no knowledge of cooperation. But remember that this is being done by a spy organization, who likely have bribed staff (or even have their own agents working as staff). Or it was done by hacking into source code repositories, as was done in the Adobe breach a few months ago. In Bunnie Huang's 30C3 talk last week, he mentioned that SD cards (which have embedded microprocessors) are made in factories with no security guards, access passes, or even doors. He's seen chickens walking through the factory floor. There's lots of opportunity for subverting the code in embedded devices. Bunnie's blog: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3554 And watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3GDPwIuRKI - --Bob. On 14-01-01 05:21 PM, William Muriithi wrote: >> | All these revelations seem to be from about 2007. Who knows >> what they >> | are up to now. >> >> Reading more... >> >> Some are as recent as 2009. > > Correct, had planned to mention that yesterday after reading your previous > mail. >> >> SWAP provides "software application persistence" by exploiting >> the BIOS and the HDD's Host Protected Area. Works with Windows, >> Linux, FreeBSD, or Solaris (as of 2007). >> >> Cottonmouth (I, II, and III) are USB plugs that contain network >> exfiltration capability. >> >> Ragemaster is a little thing that you put in a VGA cable that >> captures the red signal and makes it available for exfiltration >> via a RADAR unit. > > Another odd thing about these attacks is they seem mostly aimed at > corporate products. Don't seem to make sense, as terrorist > activity are unlikely to happen in office networks. Weird. > > Apple products are missing in the list. Looks like this has to do > with dumping BIOS for EFI earlier. I think EFI is more bloated so > may already > be compromised in updated list . > > The only good news is it seem the vendors are not working with > them. This > mean they pick a victim, send someone to break into the premise discretely > and plant the bug. Or is there anyway on can infect BIOS of a > running system? Or what is their delivery method in your opinion? > > Regards > > William > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLEm10ACgkQuRKJsNLM5erCPgCgmj4H/E+9uYxtqEZAa/CS1Iw9 WFYAoOLmHkY7OTyRX6yNTTEbX1CYov1m =R4t8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 1 22:52:38 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 17:52:38 -0500 Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: <52C49B5F.3080003-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52C49B5F.3080003@sobac.com> Message-ID: <52C49C36.4010503@rogers.com> Bob Jonkman wrote: > In Bunnie Huang's 30C3 talk last week, he mentioned that SD cards > (which have embedded microprocessors) are made in factories with no > security guards, access passes, or even doors. He's seen chickens > walking through the factory floor. There's lots of opportunity for > subverting the code in embedded devices. Yeah, you just can't trust those chickens. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gstrom57-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 1 23:19:55 2014 From: gstrom57-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 18:19:55 -0500 Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: <52C49C36.4010503-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52C49B5F.3080003@sobac.com> <52C49C36.4010503@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20140101181955.17c7f0d2@herring_sucker.example.org> On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 17:52:38 -0500 James Knott wrote: > Bob Jonkman wrote: > > In Bunnie Huang's 30C3 talk last week, he mentioned that SD cards > > (which have embedded microprocessors) are made in factories with no > > security guards, access passes, or even doors. He's seen chickens > > walking through the factory floor. There's lots of opportunity for > > subverting the code in embedded devices. > > Yeah, you just can't trust those chickens. ;-) Don't chickens usually program in AWK? Or do they prefer markup languages? > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Glen Strom gstrom57-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 1 23:45:49 2014 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 18:45:49 -0500 Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: <20140101181955.17c7f0d2@herring_sucker.example.org> References: <52C49B5F.3080003@sobac.com> <52C49C36.4010503@rogers.com> <20140101181955.17c7f0d2@herring_sucker.example.org> Message-ID: <52C4A8AD.3050404@dinamis.com> On 01/01/2014 06:19 PM, Glen Strom wrote: > On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 17:52:38 -0500 > James Knott wrote: > >> Bob Jonkman wrote: >>> In Bunnie Huang's 30C3 talk last week, he mentioned that SD cards >>> (which have embedded microprocessors) are made in factories with no >>> security guards, access passes, or even doors. He's seen chickens >>> walking through the factory floor. There's lots of opportunity for >>> subverting the code in embedded devices. >> Yeah, you just can't trust those chickens. ;-) > Don't chickens usually program in AWK? Or do they prefer markup > languages? Neither. They prefer Scratch . -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay 647-778-8696 Dinamis -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 2 03:43:33 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 22:43:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: war story: LCD display backlight problem Message-ID: My desktop display is a 30" Dell Ultrasharp 3007WFP. Amazing that an eight year old monitor isn't superseded on my desktop (some newer monitors are better, but not enough to matter). After the ice storm's power failures, a patch of the screen was darker than the rest. Not enough to make that area hard to read, but distractingly different. The patch was shaped as a horizontal bar that stretched roughly half way across the screen. It was perhaps a sixth of the height of the screen. I assume that this is one of the fluorescent backlights going. I don't think backlights are replaceable. Today I cranked the display brightness up all the way and left it for a while. Now, several hours later, the dim patch has disappeared. Even when I turn down the brightness. I don't know if my fiddling with brightness fixed the problem. But the problem was there for the better part of a week before I tried it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 2 04:13:59 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 23:13:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: William Muriithi | Another odd thing about these attacks is they seem mostly aimed at | corporate products. Don't seem to make sense, as terrorist activity are | unlikely to happen in office networks. Weird. Terrorism is a big distraction. It isn't really important in the scheme of things, as long as you exclude self-inflicted wounds (what I liken to an auto-immune disease). 3000 people were killed in the horrible September 11 event. As I understand it, order-of-magnitude a million people are involved in US spying etc. Seems disproportionate. More than 10 times as many people are killed each year in the US in traffic accidents. Do they put 10 million traffic cops on the case? Oh, but wait, Sept 11 was a dozen years ago. So I guess that the comparable figure would be 120 million traffic cops. Fear of terrorism is used to elect politicians, to build empires, and to justify all sorts of things I think of as wrong. All the way up to intrusive copyright enforcement (I'm not joking about that -- it happened in Canada with our equivalent to the USA PATRIOT act). | Apple products are missing in the list. Looks like this has to do with | dumping BIOS for EFI earlier. I think EFI is more bloated so may already | be compromised in updated list . I think I saw something for an iphone; too lazy to check. In that era, Apple computers were fairly uncommon. (As are Linux desktops.) | The only good news is it seem the vendors are not working with them. Why do you conclude this? Juniper products seemed to be disproportionately mentioned, for example. I doubt that Vendors whole chain of command would be in on any subversion. | This | mean they pick a victim, send someone to break into the premise discretely | and plant the bug. Or is there anyway on can infect BIOS of a running | system? Or what is their delivery method in your opinion? Not my area. But in theory many different exploits could turn into BIOS flashings (notice that you don't need to flick a switch to enable flashing?). Those subversions would be persistent. SMM (System Management Mode) provides an easy way to make the result omnipotent and hard to observe. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 2 19:21:16 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 14:21:16 -0500 Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140102192116.GI17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 07:43:46PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > Hello pals, > > This looks like a petty interesting read. > > http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/nsas-ant-division-catalog-of-exploits-for-nearly-every-major-software-hardware-firmware/ > > Remind me of Lennart claimed hard disk firmware are petty safe a month or > two ago. Apparently NSA has compromised them too. I did? It doesn't seem the firmware of the harddisk could really be used to do much, although what they have done makes some sense, although it does seem it could still be detected sometimes. > Quote : > > Another program attacks the firmware in hard drives manufactured by Western > Digital, Seagate, Maxtor and Samsung, all of which, with the exception of > latter, are American companies. Here, too, it appears the US intelligence > agency is compromising the technology and products of American companies. > > End quote: > > These guys have been petty busy. No kidding. So essentially they have made a boot sector virus that only shows up in the boot sector some of the time. There is a lot of neat stuff on that list. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 2 19:22:35 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 14:22:35 -0500 Subject: Papers on hacking a typesetter Message-ID: This is a historical piece on a Bell Labs experience in hacking on a typesetter. That it combines serious matters with matters whimsical may be gleaned from the title: Experience with the Mergenthaler Linotron 202 Phototypesetter, or, How We Spent Our Summer Vacation. http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/ Paper by Joe Condon, Brian Kernighan and Ken Thompson, written in 1980, I suspect produced on said typesetter. Further entertainment comes from a subsequent paper that describes the process of reconstructing the initial paper so that it could be read using modern means (e.g. - as a well-formed PDF document). -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 2 19:24:31 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 14:24:31 -0500 Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: <52C229E6.8040005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52C229E6.8040005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20140102192430.GJ17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 09:20:22PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > William Muriithi wrote: > > > > Another program attacks the firmware in hard drives manufactured by > > Western Digital, Seagate, Maxtor and Samsung, all of which, with the > > exception of latter, are American companies. Here, too, it appears the > > US intelligence agency is compromising the technology and products of > > American companies. > > > > One would assume they want to collect info. How does a hard drive > communicate anything back to the NSA? That would require the drive to > send the data via the SATA port, through the IP stack and then out the > NIC. How is that possible? Seems what they do is have the firmware provide alternate boot code in the master boot record (sector 0) to the system right after power on, and then after the system boots, they go back to showing the original code that the system expects so you can't detect it from a virus scanner. I guess this is one place secure boot would actually help, except the NSA probably has access to signing their code with microsoft's key. Using secureboot with your own signed code and certificates on the other hand could actually be helpful. So the harddisk firmware isn't sending data or collecting it, it is just providing a way to hijack the boot process early on in a hard to detect manner and nearly impossible to exterminate manner. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 2 19:40:07 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 14:40:07 -0500 Subject: Catalog of NSA compromised equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140102194007.GK17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 01, 2014 at 11:13:59PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Terrorism is a big distraction. It isn't really important in the scheme > of things, as long as you exclude self-inflicted wounds (what I liken to > an auto-immune disease). 3000 people were killed in the horrible > September 11 event. As I understand it, order-of-magnitude a million > people are involved in US spying etc. Seems disproportionate. > > More than 10 times as many people are killed each year in the US in > traffic accidents. > > Do they put 10 million traffic cops on the case? > Oh, but wait, Sept 11 was a dozen years ago. So I guess that the > comparable figure would be 120 million traffic cops. > > Fear of terrorism is used to elect politicians, to build empires, and to > justify all sorts of things I think of as wrong. All the way up to > intrusive copyright enforcement (I'm not joking about that -- it happened > in Canada with our equivalent to the USA PATRIOT act). Oh absolutely. It's all about appearing to be doing something about the scary terrorists, not about doing something about real problems. > I think I saw something for an iphone; too lazy to check. Yes iphone is mentioned. > In that era, Apple computers were fairly uncommon. (As are Linux > desktops.) > > Why do you conclude this? Juniper products seemed to be > disproportionately mentioned, for example. I doubt that Vendors whole > chain of command would be in on any subversion. Juniper makes large routers, and hence good targets. Being x86 PC hardware inside with intel CPUs with SMM support with freebsd running on them probably just makes them easy targets too. > Not my area. But in theory many different exploits could turn into > BIOS flashings (notice that you don't need to flick a switch to enable > flashing?). Those subversions would be persistent. SMM (System > Management Mode) provides an easy way to make the result omnipotent > and hard to observe. SMM is an absolute disaster. Stupid thing to have invented, all just to save a few cents per box in hardware. Makes winmodems seem like a good idea in comparison. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 2 21:22:06 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 16:22:06 -0500 Subject: Mediasonic Probox USB3/eSATA non-raid -- USB3 not working, but USB2 works In-Reply-To: <20131230011514.GA32284-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20131230011514.GA32284@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <20140102212206.GL17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 08:15:14PM -0500, William Park wrote: > Does anyone have working Mediasonic Probox USB3/eSATA non-raid box? > > I just bought > Mediasonic Probox (4-bay non-raid enclosure) > Model: HF2-SU3S2 rev.2 > Serial: MAY1301327 > > When connected via USB3, it is not recognized by the computer, and > harddisks do not show up at all. Nothing in dmesg. > > However, when connected via USB2, it works. Probox's JMicron chipset is > recognized, and I can see all harddisks (3 x 3TB). Kernel output is as > follows: > Dec 29 18:48:42 node1 kernel: [354203.357812] usb 2-5: new high-speed USB device number 5 using ehci-pci > Dec 29 18:48:42 node1 kernel: [354203.483253] usb 2-5: New USB device found, idVendor=152d, idProduct=0539 > Dec 29 18:48:42 node1 kernel: [354203.483267] usb 2-5: New USB device strings: Mfr=10, Product=11, SerialNumber=5 > Dec 29 18:48:42 node1 kernel: [354203.483274] usb 2-5: Product: USB to ATA/ATAPI Bridge > Dec 29 18:48:42 node1 kernel: [354203.483280] usb 2-5: Manufacturer: JMicron > Dec 29 18:48:42 node1 kernel: [354203.483285] usb 2-5: SerialNumber: 000000000000 > > Specs for computer side are: > OS: Linux 3.12.6 > Motherboard: Asus M5A97 > USB3 chipset: ASMedia Technology Inc. ASM1042 SuperSpeed USB Host Controller [1b21:1042] > USB2 chipset: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller [1002:4396] > > I emailed Mediasonic.ca, but I might get faster response from TLUG. I had some issues with USB3 with an ASMedia controller the first time I tried using it. I didn't need USB3 on the machine and moved my device to a USB2 port and had no issues. I have never tried the port again since. I have used USB3 on my laptop in linux and the intel USB3 works fine. I am not sure how good those ASMedia controllers really are. You are using the USB3 cable I would assume. Have you tried on a box with a different USB3 controller type? http://marc.info/?l=linux-usb&m=134236551409964&w=2 for example mentions the ASM1042 has known bugs. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 01:04:18 2014 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 20:04:18 -0500 Subject: Linux fix for untrustworthy hardware random # generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI This commit allow Linux to use untrusted hardware random number generator. commit a9f069e38cc36d6c4ab3c831bc4bef 2ae1a16e96 Author: Theodore Ts'o < tytso-3s7WtUTddSA at public.gmane.org> Date: Tue Dec 17 21:16:39 2013 -0500 random: use the architectural HWRNG for the SHA's IV in extract_buf() To help assuage the fears of those who think the NSA can introduce a massive hack into the instruction decode and out of order execution engine in the CPU without hundreds of Intel engineers knowing about it (only one of which woud need to have the conscience and courage of Edward Snowden to spill the beans to the public), use the HWRNG to initialize the SHA starting value, instead of xor'ing it in afterwards. Signed-off-by: "Theodore Ts'o" diff --git a/drivers/char/random.c b/drivers/char/random.c index 8cc7d65..d07575c 100644 --- a/drivers/char/random.c +++ b/drivers/char/random.c @@ -1012,23 +1012,23 @@ static void extract_buf(struct entropy_store *r, __u8 *out) __u8 extract[64]; unsigned long flags; - /* Generate a hash across the pool, 16 words (512 bits) at a time */- sha_init(hash.w); - spin_lock_irqsave(&r->lock, flags); - for (i = 0; i < r->poolinfo->poolwords; i += 16) - sha_transform(hash.w, (__u8 *)(r->pool + i), workspace); -/* * If we have an architectural hardware random number - * generator, mix that in, too. + * generator, use it for SHA's initial vector */+ sha_init(hash.w); for (i = 0; i < LONGS(20); i++) { unsigned long v; if (!arch_get_random_long(&v)) break; - hash.l[i] ^= v; + hash.l[i] = v; } + /* Generate a hash across the pool, 16 words (512 bits) at a time */+ spin_lock_irqsave(&r->lock, flags); + for (i = 0; i < r->poolinfo->poolwords; i += 16) + sha_transform(hash.w, (__u8 *)(r->pool + i), workspace); + /* * We mix the hash back into the pool to prevent backtracking * attacks (where the attacker knows the the state of the pool. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 14:11:34 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 09:11:34 -0500 Subject: Papers on hacking a typesetter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52C6C516.2040207@utoronto.ca> On 02/01/14 02:22 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > This is a historical piece on a Bell Labs experience in hacking on a typesetter. > > That it combines serious matters with matters whimsical may be gleaned > from the title: > > Experience with the Mergenthaler Linotron 202 Phototypesetter, or, How > We Spent Our Summer Vacation. > > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/ > > Paper by Joe Condon, Brian Kernighan and Ken Thompson, written in > 1980, I suspect produced on said typesetter. > > Further entertainment comes from a subsequent paper that describes the > process of reconstructing the initial paper so that it could be read > using modern means (e.g. - as a well-formed PDF document). I wish I had a tenth as much broad understanding of the systems as the authors. I mean, everything from hardware to reverse engineering proprietary floppy filesystems, using a PDP11 for a bootloader (awesome that), figuring out a proprietary font engine & encodings, to writing their own fonts in vectors, playing with chip timings. Sure systems are probably more complex now than they were then, but what they managed to pull off in getting the typesetter to work with their own fonts even is remarkable, nevermind commandeer the font loading program to load other programs or fonts. 'When hackers could hack' should be the title! Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 16:01:41 2014 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 14:01:41 -0200 Subject: Papers on hacking a typesetter In-Reply-To: <52C6C516.2040207-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <52C6C516.2040207@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: I was amused by the text, and by their log of errors too. The guys did the unthinkable, making a better firmware to an undocumented device without Google. And they write like they were mounting Lego bricks! Mauro http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. 2014/1/3 Jamon Camisso > On 02/01/14 02:22 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > > This is a historical piece on a Bell Labs experience in hacking on a > typesetter. > > > > That it combines serious matters with matters whimsical may be gleaned > > from the title: > > > > Experience with the Mergenthaler Linotron 202 Phototypesetter, or, How > > We Spent Our Summer Vacation. > > > > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/ > > > > Paper by Joe Condon, Brian Kernighan and Ken Thompson, written in > > 1980, I suspect produced on said typesetter. > > > > Further entertainment comes from a subsequent paper that describes the > > process of reconstructing the initial paper so that it could be read > > using modern means (e.g. - as a well-formed PDF document). > > I wish I had a tenth as much broad understanding of the systems as the > authors. I mean, everything from hardware to reverse engineering > proprietary floppy filesystems, using a PDP11 for a bootloader (awesome > that), figuring out a proprietary font engine & encodings, to writing > their own fonts in vectors, playing with chip timings. > > Sure systems are probably more complex now than they were then, but what > they managed to pull off in getting the typesetter to work with their > own fonts even is remarkable, nevermind commandeer the font loading > program to load other programs or fonts. > > 'When hackers could hack' should be the title! > > Cheers, Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 16:05:01 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 11:05:01 -0500 Subject: Papers on hacking a typesetter In-Reply-To: References: <52C6C516.2040207@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <52C6DFAD.2000408@rogers.com> Mauro Souza wrote: > Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. Or more accurately absolute B.S.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tisdall-DXT9u3ndKiSh7up9GtFB90EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 16:14:50 2014 From: tisdall-DXT9u3ndKiSh7up9GtFB90EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (Tim Tisdall) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:14:50 -0500 Subject: Papers on hacking a typesetter In-Reply-To: <52C6DFAD.2000408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52C6C516.2040207@utoronto.ca> <52C6DFAD.2000408@rogers.com> Message-ID: James can write another text called "how to flame bate" On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 11:05 AM, James Knott wrote: > Mauro Souza wrote: > > Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. > > Or more accurately absolute B.S.. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 17:35:06 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 12:35:06 -0500 Subject: Papers on hacking a typesetter In-Reply-To: <52C6DFAD.2000408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52C6C516.2040207@utoronto.ca> <52C6DFAD.2000408@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 3 January 2014 11:05, James Knott wrote: > Mauro Souza wrote: > > Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. > > Or more accurately absolute B.S.. > It's possible I disagree with the politics (and possibly the religion) of many people on this list. But I'm not on the list to discuss those things: we're all here to talk about Linux and related topics. Mauro has never pressed his religious beliefs on us - a single line of his sig is hardly something to get worked up about. Both of you have contributed a lot to this list. Let's try to keep my favourite mailing list classy, please? -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 18:35:20 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 13:35:20 -0500 Subject: Papers on hacking a typesetter In-Reply-To: References: <52C6C516.2040207@utoronto.ca> <52C6DFAD.2000408@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > On 3 January 2014 11:05, James Knott wrote: >> >> Mauro Souza wrote: >> > Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. >> >> Or more accurately absolute B.S.. > > It's possible I disagree with the politics (and possibly the religion) of > many people on this list. But I'm not on the list to discuss those things: > we're all here to talk about Linux and related topics. Mauro has never > pressed his religious beliefs on us - a single line of his sig is hardly > something to get worked up about. Both of you have contributed a lot to > this list. Let's try to keep my favourite mailing list classy, please? Indeed. GTALUG has generally not been entirely specific about the sorts of ways in which it purports to be inclusive. The usual things that are supposed to NOT be the basis for insulting people tend to include race, gender, and, to the point, here, religion. A waggish reaction might be that this leaves things open to insult people on the basis of *not* cleaving to a religion. There are enough folk around with some anti-religious fervour that that situation wouldn't last terribly long :-). "Keep it classy", indeed. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 21:40:19 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 16:40:19 -0500 Subject: mint-bash weirdness Message-ID: I have a favourite function/alias that I install on all Debian-based systems: function dpkgs () { dpkg-query -W --showformat='${Installed-Size}\t${Package}\n' | sort -n; } dpkgs outputs out a list of all packages on the system with their size, and sorts them from smallest to largest. Very useful on space-limited systems. I've been using it for years without problems. But in the last few days I've been playing with both Debian Jesse and Debian-Mint (with Cinnamon) inside VirtualBox. No problem with Debian, I just drop the function into /etc/bash.bashrc as usual. But on Mint it just prints: Size Size Size ... for as many packages as are installed. This is an indication of some form of bad parsing on the part of Mint, I can't remember exactly what (I've seen it before: the quoting in the command makes it hard to turn it into an alias). But what I'm really not getting is: why does this work on Debian and not on Mint? And just as odd, it works from the Mint command line, but not in the Mint /etc/bash.bashrc. Perhaps they recompiled bash with different options? Or set the command line options differently? I'm not entirely sure how to check that, or why they would do that. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 22:22:32 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 17:22:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: mint-bash weirdness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Giles Orr | function dpkgs () { dpkg-query -W | --showformat='${Installed-Size}\t${Package}\n' | sort -n; } | | No problem with Debian, I just drop the | function into /etc/bash.bashrc as usual. But on Mint it just prints: | | Size | Size | Size [all the following is unreliable guess-work.] Shell variables don't normally had - in them. Try the following: echo ${yuck-zop} That should print "zop". I think that this is an undocumented backward compatability feature of bash. See sh(1), page 159, in Now your usage should not involve shell parameter substitution but dpkg-query --showformat substitution. But if the single quotes were somehow eaten, the shell would do the substitution and "Size" would be printed. If you do the command set | less and search for dpkgs, you should see what definition bash has. I see: dpkgs () { dpkg-query -W --showformat='${Installed-Size}\t${Package}\n' | sort -n } which looks correct (see the quotes?). I suspect that on the problematic system (Mint), those quotes are gone. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 3 22:39:09 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 17:39:09 -0500 Subject: mint-bash weirdness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 January 2014 17:22, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Giles Orr > > | function dpkgs () { dpkg-query -W > | --showformat='${Installed-Size}\t${Package}\n' | sort -n; } > | > | No problem with Debian, I just drop the > | function into /etc/bash.bashrc as usual. But on Mint it just prints: > | > | Size > | Size > | Size > > [all the following is unreliable guess-work.] > > Shell variables don't normally had - in them. Try the following: > echo ${yuck-zop} > That should print "zop". I think that this is an undocumented > backward compatability feature of bash. See sh(1), page 159, in > > > Now your usage should not involve shell parameter substitution but > dpkg-query --showformat substitution. But if the single quotes were > somehow eaten, the shell would do the substitution and "Size" would be > printed. > > If you do the command > set | less > and search for dpkgs, you should see what definition bash has. > > I see: > dpkgs () > { > dpkg-query -W --showformat='${Installed-Size}\t${Package}\n' | > sort -n > } > which looks correct (see the quotes?). > > I suspect that on the problematic system (Mint), those quotes are gone. > With sincere apologies ... I've rebooted the Vbox, and now it works. I have no explanation. I reloaded and retried six ways from Sunday with no luck prior to the reboot. Probably stupidity on my part, but it must have been a particularly clever brand of stupidity because I can't see what it was. Sorry for the wasted time ... -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 4 17:17:01 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 12:17:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: SSDs are scary Message-ID: Via slashdot and other postings, I got to this. Boy, most SSDs seem to have unconscionable flaws: This will certainly affect my use of SSDs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 4 18:54:42 2014 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2014 13:54:42 -0500 Subject: SSDs are scary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52C858F2.5050701@alteeve.ca> On 04/01/14 12:17 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Via slashdot and other postings, I got to this. Boy, most SSDs seem > to have unconscionable flaws: > > > > This will certainly affect my use of SSDs. It's a young technology, there is a reason it's called "the bleeding edge". :) I've bought and used a couple dozen SSDs in the last 2~3 years and I've had three or four failures so far. Not bad for a young technology. To the specific power-loos induced corruption; That speaks to use-case. In laptops (and tablets/phones), the device's internal battery helps to protect against power events. It's similar to BBWC/FBWC in high-end RAID arrays; It's a trade-off you make. Now, running write-back caching without a BBU/FBU, that is insane. Equivalently, running SSDs in a desktop without a UPS is along the same lines of risky behaviour. Thankfully, half-decent UPSes aren't that expensive. All this said, that document specifically states that the Intel S3500 and 320 have internal capacitance sufficient to flush a full cache out to NAND in a power loss event. So if this issue concerns you, it sounds like you have a valid option if you want to use SSDs still (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167163 - well under $2/GB). -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 4 22:11:46 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 17:11:46 -0500 Subject: SSDs are scary In-Reply-To: <52C858F2.5050701-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52C858F2.5050701@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: <20140104221146.GA3479@node1.localdomain> On Sat, Jan 04, 2014 at 01:54:42PM -0500, Digimer wrote: > On 04/01/14 12:17 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >Via slashdot and other postings, I got to this. Boy, most SSDs seem > >to have unconscionable flaws: > > > > > > > >This will certainly affect my use of SSDs. > All this said, that document specifically states that the Intel > S3500 and 320 have internal capacitance sufficient to flush a full > cache out to NAND in a power loss event. So if this issue concerns > you, it sounds like you have a valid option if you want to use SSDs > still > (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167163 - > well under $2/GB). Slightly cheaper at But, thanks Hugh. I look forward to see Intel vs Samsung comparison. This morning my computer rebooted twice. Probably power flickering, but I don't see flashing "12:00" on other appliances. I do feel that this power supply (Corsair AX650, 80+Gold) seems a little more sensitive to power fluctuation than others. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 5 01:41:19 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2014 20:41:19 -0500 Subject: Papers on hacking a typesetter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52C8B83F.8080604@gmail.com> On 14-01-02 02:22 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/ I'd recommend the David Brailsford videos linked from these pages, too. It really was a hack of epic proportions, covering everything from chemicals, through mechanics, to software. I just missed out on working with phototypesetters, as CTP was fully in everywhere I worked in pre-press. I don't think I missed much; Clark Coffee's Old Phototypesetter Tales - http://haagens.com/oldtype.tpl.html - would indicate that I certainly didn't. (Though while folks complain about the ITU, they had *phenomenal* training materials. The ITU training manuals were works of art.) cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 5 02:56:08 2014 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 00:56:08 -0200 Subject: Papers on hacking a typesetter In-Reply-To: <52C8B83F.8080604-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52C8B83F.8080604@gmail.com> Message-ID: Flaming only works on flammable people, and that definitely is not my case... Back in topic, those guys sort of remind me of the DCSS-John, GeoHot, Saurik and the ones from Iphone Dev Team, and other people hacking things today. I wonder what Joe Condon, Brian Kernighan and Ken Thompson would be able to do today, with Internet, Google, and all the tools we have today... Those guys are incredible, and they did a lot to our world. It's hard to imagine a world without Unix, C, and everything derived from that. Mauro http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. 2014/1/4 Stewart C. Russell > On 14-01-02 02:22 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > > > > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/ > > I'd recommend the David Brailsford videos linked from these pages, too. > It really was a hack of epic proportions, covering everything from > chemicals, through mechanics, to software. > > I just missed out on working with phototypesetters, as CTP was fully in > everywhere I worked in pre-press. I don't think I missed much; Clark > Coffee's Old Phototypesetter Tales - http://haagens.com/oldtype.tpl.html > - would indicate that I certainly didn't. > > (Though while folks complain about the ITU, they had *phenomenal* > training materials. The ITU training manuals were works of art.) > > cheers, > Stewart > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 5 16:33:28 2014 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:33:28 -0500 Subject: Co-working or shared office space near Humber College Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm looking for somewhere to sit and work for a day that's near Humber College Blvd and Highway 27 -- just for tomorrow. Wifi would be convenient, but I can go with tethering if necessary. I don't mind going to a Tim's for a while, but I'd prefer not to be there for an entire day. The places I've found using Google look much fancier than I need -- and probably cost more to boot. Thanks for your suggestions! Alex Beamish -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 5 18:17:54 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2014 13:17:54 -0500 Subject: Co-working or shared office space near Humber College In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52C9A1D2.4030400@utoronto.ca> On 05/01/14 11:33 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm looking for somewhere to sit and work for a day that's near Humber > College Blvd and Highway 27 -- just for tomorrow. Wifi would be convenient, > but I can go with tethering if necessary. > > I don't mind going to a Tim's for a while, but I'd prefer not to be there > for an entire day. > > The places I've found using Google look much fancier than I need -- and > probably cost more to boot. Considered a TPL branch? There's one on Albion between Finch and Kipling, or south on Kipling from Albion there's the Rexdale branch. Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 05:39:50 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 00:39:50 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? Message-ID: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> Hi, Question: Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? Background: I've been using paper calendar to keep track of appointments, meetings, due dates, reminders, etc. In the spirit of keeping up with time, I tried using cell phone (Blackberry). It's ok, but typing on Blackberry is just silly. What I want is calendar app on my computer. All I need is to enter text on particular day and time, that's all. Don't need syncing to anything. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 08:51:22 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2014 03:51:22 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20140106053949.GA2941-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52CA6E8A.1090506@sobac.com> I'm using Thunderbird with the Lightning calendar plugin. I used Lightning as the UI to Google Calendar (also requires the Thunderbird "Google Calendar Provider" plugin), but I've now abandoned Google and am running an ownCloud server for the calendar repository. I don't find the ownCloud web UI for the calendar very good, so I'm happy that ownCloud's WebCal access works well with Lightning. On my Android phone I use both aCal and SolCalendar to access the ownCloud calendar repository. SolCalendar is prettier, but aCal is more reliable. I use them only for alarms and viewing my schedule; all event data entry is done with Lightning. --Bob. On 14-01-06 12:39 AM, William Park wrote: > Hi, > > Question: > Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? > > Background: > I've been using paper calendar to keep track of appointments, > meetings, due dates, reminders, etc. In the spirit of keeping up > with time, I tried using cell phone (Blackberry). It's ok, but > typing on Blackberry is just silly. > > What I want is calendar app on my computer. All I need is to enter > text on particular day and time, that's all. Don't need syncing to > anything. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 13:00:28 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2014 08:00:28 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20140106053949.GA2941-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52CAA8EC.5090600@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > Question: > Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? I use Google Calendar. There are apps for it available for smart phones & tablets, it works with Thunderbird, using Lightning and can be accessed with a browser. I even use the Tasks function for my grocery list and other things. You can also share calendars, so I have my own, plus a couple of groups I belong to. I have the same synced calendar on my computer, phone and tablet and it doesn't matter which I use, as they're all the same calendar. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 14:07:05 2014 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 09:07:05 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <52CAA8EC.5090600-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <52CAA8EC.5090600@rogers.com> Message-ID: Hard to beat Google Calendar Dave Cramer On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:00 AM, James Knott wrote: > William Park wrote: > > Question: > > Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? > > I use Google Calendar. There are apps for it available for smart phones > & tablets, it works with Thunderbird, using Lightning and can be > accessed with a browser. I even use the Tasks function for my grocery > list and other things. You can also share calendars, so I have my own, > plus a couple of groups I belong to. I have the same synced calendar on > my computer, phone and tablet and it doesn't matter which I use, as > they're all the same calendar. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 14:20:49 2014 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 12:20:49 -0200 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <52CAA8EC.5090600@rogers.com> Message-ID: Google Calendar is very good. I use it since launch, and is very useful. It runs on all devices I have, and have lots of funcions beyond a simple calendar. And is simple as a simple calendar. Mauro http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. 2014/1/6 Dave Cramer > Hard to beat Google Calendar > > Dave Cramer > > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:00 AM, James Knott wrote: > >> William Park wrote: >> > Question: >> > Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? >> >> I use Google Calendar. There are apps for it available for smart phones >> & tablets, it works with Thunderbird, using Lightning and can be >> accessed with a browser. I even use the Tasks function for my grocery >> list and other things. You can also share calendars, so I have my own, >> plus a couple of groups I belong to. I have the same synced calendar on >> my computer, phone and tablet and it doesn't matter which I use, as >> they're all the same calendar. >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 16:51:41 2014 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2014 11:51:41 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20140106053949.GA2941-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52CADF1D.4040104@ve3syb.ca> On 14-01-06 12:39 AM, William Park wrote: > Question: > Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? I don't have much need for a calendar program. The rare times I need to be reminded of something I use the calendar in Thunderbird since that program is usually already running. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 18:07:43 2014 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 13:07:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20140106053949.GA2941-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jan 2014, William Park wrote: > Hi, > > Question: > Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? $ man calendar CALENDAR(1) BSD General Commands Manual CALENDAR(1) NAME calendar -- reminder service SYNOPSIS calendar [-ab] [-A num] [-B num] [-l num] [-w num] [-f calendarfile] [-t [[[cc]yy]mm]dd] DESCRIPTION The calendar utility checks the current directory or the directory speci- fied by the CALENDAR_DIR environment variable for a file named calendar and displays lines that begin with either today's date or tomorrow's. On Fridays, events on Friday through Monday are displayed. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 18:45:00 2014 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2014 13:45:00 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> On Mon, 2014-01-06 at 13:07 -0500, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 6 Jan 2014, William Park wrote: [ ... ] > > Question: > > Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? > > $ man calendar > CALENDAR(1) BSD General Commands Manual CALENDAR(1) > > NAME > calendar -- reminder service > > SYNOPSIS > calendar [-ab] [-A num] [-B num] [-l num] [-w num] [-f calendarfile] [-t > [[[cc]yy]mm]dd] > > DESCRIPTION > The calendar utility checks the current directory or the directory speci- > fied by the CALENDAR_DIR environment variable for a file named calendar > and displays lines that begin with either today's date or tomorrow's. On > Fridays, events on Friday through Monday are displayed. That's cute. I've stumbled across pcal to make nice printable 1-month calendars. Not sure about compatibility between the more complicated lines in the calendar file. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 19:07:46 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 14:07:46 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: Have a look at OSMO . It is more than just a calendar -it is a personal organizer. It is written in C and depends on GTK+ and LibXML2 so you can easily add in functionality or modify and customise to suit. You can organize your calendars, tasks, contacts, and notes. The calendar tool offers features like: Day notes with text attributes, date calculator, full year calendar, compact mode, iCal support, integration with Tasks and Contact modules. OSMO does not sync with other computers or other calendars. This is a local calendar only. On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > On Mon, 2014-01-06 at 13:07 -0500, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Jan 2014, William Park wrote: > [ ... ] > > > Question: > > > Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? > > > > $ man calendar > > CALENDAR(1) BSD General Commands Manual > CALENDAR(1) > > > > NAME > > calendar -- reminder service > > > > SYNOPSIS > > calendar [-ab] [-A num] [-B num] [-l num] [-w num] [-f > calendarfile] [-t > > [[[cc]yy]mm]dd] > > > > DESCRIPTION > > The calendar utility checks the current directory or the directory > speci- > > fied by the CALENDAR_DIR environment variable for a file named > calendar > > and displays lines that begin with either today's date or > tomorrow's. On > > Fridays, events on Friday through Monday are displayed. > > That's cute. I've stumbled across pcal to make nice printable 1-month > calendars. Not sure about compatibility between the more complicated > lines in the calendar file. > > Mel. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 19:10:03 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 14:10:03 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: The OSMO build for Slackware is here : http://slackbuilds.org/result/?search=osmo&sv= On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 2:07 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Have a look at OSMO . It is more than just a > calendar -it is a personal organizer. It is written in C and depends on > GTK+ and LibXML2 so you can easily add in functionality or modify and > customise to suit. > > You can organize your calendars, tasks, contacts, and notes. The calendar > tool offers features like: Day notes with text attributes, date calculator, > full year calendar, compact mode, iCal support, integration with Tasks and > Contact modules. > > OSMO does not sync with other computers or other calendars. This is a > local calendar only. > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > >> On Mon, 2014-01-06 at 13:07 -0500, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> > On Mon, 6 Jan 2014, William Park wrote: >> [ ... ] >> > > Question: >> > > Which calendar app are you guys using on your computer? >> > >> > $ man calendar >> > CALENDAR(1) BSD General Commands Manual >> CALENDAR(1) >> > >> > NAME >> > calendar -- reminder service >> > >> > SYNOPSIS >> > calendar [-ab] [-A num] [-B num] [-l num] [-w num] [-f >> calendarfile] [-t >> > [[[cc]yy]mm]dd] >> > >> > DESCRIPTION >> > The calendar utility checks the current directory or the >> directory speci- >> > fied by the CALENDAR_DIR environment variable for a file named >> calendar >> > and displays lines that begin with either today's date or >> tomorrow's. On >> > Fridays, events on Friday through Monday are displayed. >> >> That's cute. I've stumbled across pcal to make nice printable 1-month >> calendars. Not sure about compatibility between the more complicated >> lines in the calendar file. >> >> Mel. >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > *Aruna Hewapathirane* > Consultant/Trainer > Phone : 647-709-9269 > Website: Open Source Solutions > > > > > > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 19:53:50 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2014 14:53:50 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: <52CB09CE.801@gmail.com> On 14-01-06 01:45 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > > That's cute. I've stumbled across pcal to make nice printable 1-month > calendars. It's been a while since I used it, but pcal and cal are supposed to use the same basic config files. I used to use pcal to typeset a departmental calendar, and had quite the baroque little rule set to make sure everyone's requirements were met. Yes, even the Wiccans and Partick Thistle fans were catered for ? I know several people who are fans of Remind - http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/remind . Personally, I use Google Calendar because it's simple, but I am not too keen on the way that Google uses personal data. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 6 19:54:53 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 14:54:53 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: I liked pcal, particularly when I wanted to do periodic printed calendars. http://pcal.sourceforge.net/ Wildly more sophisticated is remind, which has a (pretty much excessively) sophisticated system for indicating repetition of events http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/remind For Emacs users, it would be worth looking into OrgMode calendar integration: I don't think William's an Emacs guy... In practice, I use Google Calendar; while I'm not a huge fan of pointy-clicky, the fact that it integrates across a lot of devices (desktop via web, and sundry phones/tablets), and is pretty good at synchronization adds up to being nice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 7 02:31:10 2014 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 21:31:10 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Is anyone using korganizer? Peter > I liked pcal, particularly when I wanted to do periodic printed calendars. > > http://pcal.sourceforge.net/ > > Wildly more sophisticated is remind, which has a (pretty much > excessively) sophisticated system for indicating repetition of events > > http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/remind > > For Emacs users, it would be worth looking into OrgMode calendar > integration: I don't > think William's an Emacs guy... > > In practice, I use Google Calendar; while I'm not a huge fan of > pointy-clicky, the fact that it integrates across a lot of devices > (desktop via web, and sundry phones/tablets), and is pretty good at > synchronization adds up to being nice. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 7 03:00:42 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 22:00:42 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> I use Slackware which uses KDE. For reasons beyond me, KOrganizer doesn't work. I click date/time, type a text, and click OK. But, what I typed doesn't show up on the calendar. Other KDE distros are the same, so I don't understand. CentOS is the only one that has working KOrganizer, and CentOS is not KDE distro, so I really don't understand. -- William On Mon, Jan 06, 2014 at 09:31:10PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Is anyone using korganizer? > > Peter > > > I liked pcal, particularly when I wanted to do periodic printed calendars. > > > > http://pcal.sourceforge.net/ > > > > Wildly more sophisticated is remind, which has a (pretty much > > excessively) sophisticated system for indicating repetition of events > > > > http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/remind > > > > For Emacs users, it would be worth looking into OrgMode calendar > > integration: I don't > > think William's an Emacs guy... > > > > In practice, I use Google Calendar; while I'm not a huge fan of > > pointy-clicky, the fact that it integrates across a lot of devices > > (desktop via web, and sundry phones/tablets), and is pretty good at > > synchronization adds up to being nice. > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > http://www.syscompdesign.com > USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > 647-839-0325 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 7 03:43:03 2014 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 22:43:03 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20140107030041.GA4028-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> I'm just starting to use it under Linux Mint 16. The usual 'sudo apt-get' routine seemed to work fine, although there was a lot of stuff that got installed. Entering an event seems to work: Display 'Month', which shows the complete month in the right-hand pane. Click on one of the days. Double left click on one of the days. The event entry box pops up. Fill that out. Click OK. The event title appears in the calendar in the day box. To edit an event, double left click on it. The event box pops up, as before. Originally, I couldn't get the 'New Event' button to work, but that seems to be working now. I'm not clear what I did to enable it. Peter > I use Slackware which uses KDE. For reasons beyond me, KOrganizer > doesn't work. I click date/time, type a text, and click OK. But, what > I typed doesn't show up on the calendar. Other KDE distros are the > same, so I don't understand. CentOS is the only one that has working > KOrganizer, and CentOS is not KDE distro, so I really don't understand. > -- > William > > On Mon, Jan 06, 2014 at 09:31:10PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> Is anyone using korganizer? >> >> Peter >> >> > I liked pcal, particularly when I wanted to do periodic printed >> calendars. >> > >> > http://pcal.sourceforge.net/ >> > >> > Wildly more sophisticated is remind, which has a (pretty much >> > excessively) sophisticated system for indicating repetition of events >> > >> > http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/remind >> > >> > For Emacs users, it would be worth looking into OrgMode calendar >> > integration: I don't >> > think William's an Emacs guy... >> > >> > In practice, I use Google Calendar; while I'm not a huge fan of >> > pointy-clicky, the fact that it integrates across a lot of devices >> > (desktop via web, and sundry phones/tablets), and is pretty good at >> > synchronization adds up to being nice. >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > >> >> >> -- >> Peter Hiscocks >> Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto >> http://www.syscompdesign.com >> USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator >> 647-839-0325 >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 7 20:26:52 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 15:26:52 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20140107202652.GA27737@node1.localdomain> Grrr... It turns out that I have to click and enable the calendar I want to see, presumably in case there are multiple calendars. So, on "Calendar Manager" on the left, click the checkbox just before the calendar title (clicking the calendar title or line item is NOT enough) and then a red mark will show at the end of the line. -- William On Mon, Jan 06, 2014 at 10:43:03PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > I'm just starting to use it under Linux Mint 16. The usual 'sudo apt-get' > routine seemed to work fine, although there was a lot of stuff that got > installed. > > Entering an event seems to work: > Display 'Month', which shows the complete month in the right-hand pane. > Click on one of the days. Double left click on one of the days. The event > entry box pops up. Fill that out. Click OK. The event title appears in the > calendar in the day box. > > To edit an event, double left click on it. The event box pops up, as before. > > Originally, I couldn't get the 'New Event' button to work, but that seems > to be working now. I'm not clear what I did to enable it. > > Peter > > > > > I use Slackware which uses KDE. For reasons beyond me, KOrganizer > > doesn't work. I click date/time, type a text, and click OK. But, what > > I typed doesn't show up on the calendar. Other KDE distros are the > > same, so I don't understand. CentOS is the only one that has working > > KOrganizer, and CentOS is not KDE distro, so I really don't understand. > > -- > > William > > > > On Mon, Jan 06, 2014 at 09:31:10PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > >> Is anyone using korganizer? > >> > >> Peter > >> > >> > I liked pcal, particularly when I wanted to do periodic printed > >> calendars. > >> > > >> > http://pcal.sourceforge.net/ > >> > > >> > Wildly more sophisticated is remind, which has a (pretty much > >> > excessively) sophisticated system for indicating repetition of events > >> > > >> > http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/remind > >> > > >> > For Emacs users, it would be worth looking into OrgMode calendar > >> > integration: I don't > >> > think William's an Emacs guy... > >> > > >> > In practice, I use Google Calendar; while I'm not a huge fan of > >> > pointy-clicky, the fact that it integrates across a lot of devices > >> > (desktop via web, and sundry phones/tablets), and is pretty good at > >> > synchronization adds up to being nice. > >> > -- > >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Peter Hiscocks > >> Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > >> http://www.syscompdesign.com > >> USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > >> 647-839-0325 > >> > >> -- > >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > -- > Peter Hiscocks > Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > http://www.syscompdesign.com > USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > 647-839-0325 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 7 22:53:11 2014 From: tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org (Todd Howe) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 17:53:11 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20140107202652.GA27737-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107202652.GA27737@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <1389135191.3159.2.camel@Nokia-N900> I notice no one has brought up Evolution yet, which may be more than you want (also a mail client and you can in future sync it with syncevolution if you change your mind on that requirement) but it works great and integrates into various Gnome family distros, possibly others too - it will pop up Desktop reminders if desired. Like a drop-in Outlook clone. -- Todd Howe - GPG id E8BCABA7 On Tue,? 7 Jan 2014, 15:26:52 EST, William Park wrote: > Grrr... It turns out that I have to click and enable the calendar I want > to see, presumably in case there are multiple calendars.? So, on > "Calendar Manager" on the left, click the checkbox just before the > calendar title (clicking the calendar title or line item is NOT enough) > and then a red mark will show at the end of the line. > -- > William > > On Mon, Jan 06, 2014 at 10:43:03PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I'm just starting to use it under Linux Mint 16. The usual 'sudo > > apt-get' routine seemed to work fine, although there was a lot of > > stuff that got installed. > > > > Entering an event seems to work: > > Display 'Month', which shows the complete month in the right-hand pane. > > Click on one of the days. Double left click on one of the days. The > > event entry box pops up. Fill that out. Click OK. The event title > > appears in the calendar in the day box. > > > > To edit an event, double left click on it. The event box pops up, as > > before. > > > > Originally, I couldn't get the 'New Event' button to work, but that > > seems to be working now. I'm not clear what I did to enable it. > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > I use Slackware which uses KDE.? For reasons beyond me, KOrganizer > > > doesn't work.? I click date/time, type a text, and click OK.? But, > > > what I typed doesn't show up on the calendar.? Other KDE distros are > > > the same, so I don't understand.? CentOS is the only one that has > > > working KOrganizer, and CentOS is not KDE distro, so I really don't > > > understand. -- > > > William > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 06, 2014 at 09:31:10PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org > > > wrote: > > > > Is anyone using korganizer? > > > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > I liked pcal, particularly when I wanted to do periodic printed > > > > calendars. > > > > > > > > > > http://pcal.sourceforge.net/ > > > > > > > > > > Wildly more sophisticated is remind, which has a (pretty much > > > > > excessively) sophisticated system for indicating repetition of > > > > > events > > > > > > > > > > http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/remind > > > > > > > > > > For Emacs users, it would be worth looking into OrgMode calendar > > > > > integration: ? I > > > > > don't think William's an Emacs guy... > > > > > > > > > > In practice, I use Google Calendar; while I'm not a huge fan of > > > > > pointy-clicky, the fact that it integrates across a lot of > > > > > devices (desktop via web, and sundry phones/tablets), and is > > > > > pretty good at synchronization adds up to being nice. > > > > > -- > > > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Peter Hiscocks > > > > Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > > > > http://www.syscompdesign.com > > > > USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > > > > 647-839-0325 > > > > > > > > -- > > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > > > > > -- > > Peter Hiscocks > > Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto > > http://www.syscompdesign.com > > USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator > > 647-839-0325 > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 8 00:16:08 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:16:08 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <1389135191.3159.2.camel@Nokia-N900> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107202652.GA27737@node1.localdomain> <1389135191.3159.2.camel@Nokia-N900> Message-ID: <20140108001607.GA30213@node1.localdomain> On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 05:53:11PM -0500, Todd Howe wrote: > I notice no one has brought up Evolution yet, which may be more than > you want (also a mail client and you can in future sync it with > syncevolution if you change your mind on that requirement) but it > works great and integrates into various Gnome family distros, possibly > others too - it will pop up Desktop reminders if desired. Like a > drop-in Outlook clone. > > -- Todd Howe > - GPG id E8BCABA7 I looked into 8 different distros. With Evolution, I had to set up account and then "turn it off" to avoid conflict with Fetchmail/Mutt setup. Same for Thunderbird. Both are copy of MS Outlook, in my opinion, and turns me off for some reason. I think it's more to do with presentation and use case. I've settled on KOrganizer. Even KOrganizer is not better than paper calendar and postit stickers, just different. The recurring meeting is a nice feature, but too many of those, your calendar looks crowded and loses effectiveness. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 8 14:52:05 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:52:05 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20140108001607.GA30213-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140106053949.GA2941@node1.localdomain> <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107202652.GA27737@node1.localdomain> <1389135191.3159.2.camel@Nokia-N900> <20140108001607.GA30213@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <20140108145205.GM17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 07:16:08PM -0500, William Park wrote: > I looked into 8 different distros. With Evolution, I had to set up > account and then "turn it off" to avoid conflict with Fetchmail/Mutt > setup. Same for Thunderbird. Both are copy of MS Outlook, in my > opinion, and turns me off for some reason. I think it's more to do with > presentation and use case. My experience with evolution makes outlook look like a great email client. Even outlook isn't able to match the memory leaking of evolution. > I've settled on KOrganizer. Even KOrganizer is not better than paper > calendar and postit stickers, just different. The recurring meeting is > a nice feature, but too many of those, your calendar looks crowded and > loses effectiveness. I used to use it, until the reminder popups stopped working, then I just stopped bothering. I guess now I am just not organized anymore. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 8 15:19:16 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 10:19:16 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20140108145205.GM17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107202652.GA27737@node1.localdomain> <1389135191.3159.2.camel@Nokia-N900> <20140108001607.GA30213@node1.localdomain> <20140108145205.GM17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140108151916.GA3634@node1.localdomain> On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 09:52:05AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 07:16:08PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > I've settled on KOrganizer. Even KOrganizer is not better than paper > > calendar and postit stickers, just different. The recurring meeting is > > a nice feature, but too many of those, your calendar looks crowded and > > loses effectiveness. > > I used to use it, until the reminder popups stopped working, then I just > stopped bothering. I guess now I am just not organized anymore. My calendar is now fully populated, and it looks like kindergarten colouring book. I swear, there is no substitute for paper. Just write it on postit and stick it on the day. You don't get email reminders, but the calendar is staring at you on your desk, so you can hardly miss it. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 8 18:58:26 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20140108151916.GA3634-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107202652.GA27737@node1.localdomain> <1389135191.3159.2.camel@Nokia-N900> <20140108001607.GA30213@node1.localdomain> <20140108145205.GM17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140108151916.GA3634@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: On 01/08/2014 10:19 AM, William Park wrote: > On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 09:52:05AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 07:16:08PM -0500, William Park wrote: >>> I've settled on KOrganizer. Even KOrganizer is not better than paper >>> calendar and postit stickers, just different. The recurring meeting is >>> a nice feature, but too many of those, your calendar looks crowded and >>> loses effectiveness. >> I used to use it, until the reminder popups stopped working, then I just >> stopped bothering. I guess now I am just not organized anymore. > My calendar is now fully populated, and it looks like kindergarten > colouring book. I swear, there is no substitute for paper. Just write > it on postit and stick it on the day. You don't get email reminders, > but the calendar is staring at you on your desk, so you can hardly miss > it. Why not continue with paper? There are advantages to paper, if you can withstand the peer pressure :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 8 19:36:30 2014 From: teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:36:30 -0500 Subject: OpenELEC Message-ID: <52CDA8BE.4050302@gmail.com> It is a linux distro so it is relevant. http://openelec.tv/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHDddt4LhEk Unless you like to fuss with Raspberry I do not see the need for a Raspberry or a Beagle. I think these small units have trouble with 1080p playback. I just used a normal PC. Dual Core with a decent DVI video card (6770) and a 2TB WD Green Get a projector and setup your sound and your good to go. I prefer OpenELEC since it is very easy to install and setup. It can be running in 5 minutes and most addons work. In XBMC or MythTV that may not be the case. A remote will be best, as a keyboard is clumsy. Teddy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 8 20:01:20 2014 From: avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Volkov) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:01:20 -0500 Subject: OpenELEC In-Reply-To: <52CDA8BE.4050302-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52CDA8BE.4050302@gmail.com> Message-ID: I run RasBMC on Raspberry Pi as a media center and can assure you raspberry pi has no problem playing 1080p videos, 96% of the area of the main chip is used for video encoding/decoding and I successfully played files encoded as mp4, avi, and mkv -- I've even played the videos over the network using NFS. Sometimes it takes a couple of seconds to load the video, but otherwise playback is perfect. (Several people working on raspberry pi project mentioned that the chip was originally designed for stand-alone media players, and the remaining vacant 4% of the die area was used for a general-purpose cpu). Raspbmc setup is pretty easy, just dd an image to SD card and connect raspberry pi to your tv -- http://www.raspbmc.com/download/. I suggest using standalone image, as network updates could be annoying. Several issues I've noticed with raspberry pi as a media center player: * if you are playing a video over samba it may cause some issues as samba protocol is rather CPU-intensive (thanks Microsoft!). * No youtube videos, and this seems the biggest downside * All proprietary formats such as WMV aren't playable. * Obviously, no netflix. By the way Beagle Bone Black, though superior to Raspberry Pi in almost every other respect, has video decoder chip that not nearly as powerful and can only play 720p video at best. Alex. On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:36 PM, teddy wrote: > > It is a linux distro so it is relevant. > > http://openelec.tv/ > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHDddt4LhEk > > Unless you like to fuss with Raspberry I do not see the need for a > Raspberry or a Beagle. > I think these small units have trouble with 1080p playback. > > I just used a normal PC. > Dual Core with a decent DVI video card (6770) and a 2TB WD Green > Get a projector and setup your sound and your good to go. > > I prefer OpenELEC since it is very easy to install and setup. > > It can be running in 5 minutes and most addons work. > In XBMC or MythTV that may not be the case. > > A remote will be best, as a keyboard is clumsy. > > Teddy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 8 20:21:26 2014 From: tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org (Todd Howe) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:21:26 -0500 Subject: OpenELEC In-Reply-To: References: <52CDA8BE.4050302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20140108202125.GA22732@signaltonoise.ca> I use OpenElec on my RasbPi which is nice, and lighter than RaspBMC, though the interface is a wee bit sluggish still. Can't be bothered overclocking it. It's perhaps ironic that the weak link in my media system is the multicore MythTV server, probably a couple versions old now - it needs restarting sometimes to avoid occasional stuttering. I've absolutely no idea how to troubleshoot that just yet. But yeah, OpenElec is slick. -- -____ Todd Howe ____________________ tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org ___________- -____ GPG: public key id E8BCABA7__ IM: tehowe on twitter, jabber ____- On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 03:01:20PM -0500, Alex Volkov wrote: > I run RasBMC on Raspberry Pi as a media center and can assure you raspberry > pi has no problem playing 1080p videos, 96% of the area of the main chip is > used for video encoding/decoding and I successfully played files encoded > as mp4, avi, and mkv -- I've even played the videos over the network using > NFS. Sometimes it takes a couple of seconds to load the video, but > otherwise playback is perfect. > (Several people working on raspberry pi project mentioned that the chip was > originally designed for stand-alone media players, and the remaining vacant > 4% of the die area was used for a general-purpose cpu). > > Raspbmc setup is pretty easy, just dd an image to SD card and connect > raspberry pi to your tv -- http://www.raspbmc.com/download/. I suggest > using standalone image, as network updates could be annoying. > > Several issues I've noticed with raspberry pi as a media center player: > > * if you are playing a video over samba it may cause some issues as samba > protocol is rather CPU-intensive (thanks Microsoft!). > > * No youtube videos, and this seems the biggest downside > > * All proprietary formats such as WMV aren't playable. > > * Obviously, no netflix. > > By the way Beagle Bone Black, though superior to Raspberry Pi in almost > every other respect, has video decoder chip that not nearly as powerful and > can only play 720p video at best. > > > Alex. > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:36 PM, teddy wrote: > > > > > It is a linux distro so it is relevant. > > > > http://openelec.tv/ > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHDddt4LhEk > > > > Unless you like to fuss with Raspberry I do not see the need for a > > Raspberry or a Beagle. > > I think these small units have trouble with 1080p playback. > > > > I just used a normal PC. > > Dual Core with a decent DVI video card (6770) and a 2TB WD Green > > Get a projector and setup your sound and your good to go. > > > > I prefer OpenELEC since it is very easy to install and setup. > > > > It can be running in 5 minutes and most addons work. > > In XBMC or MythTV that may not be the case. > > > > A remote will be best, as a keyboard is clumsy. > > > > Teddy > > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 8 21:19:02 2014 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 16:19:02 -0500 Subject: Security hack, sort of... Message-ID: Here is something that is not directly Linux related, but is IT security related. What happens when someone changes their user name to a system command and uses that name while playing a multi-player game on a system that has audio input? The answer is amusing, but be warned some mild obscenities are to be heard when people realize what has happened : youtube.com/watch?v=mWZLa4AnN5k#t=148 Bottom line, one more security issue we will have to consider in the years ahead... Colin. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 8 21:44:45 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 16:44:45 -0500 Subject: Security hack, sort of... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140108214445.GN17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 04:19:02PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > Here is something that is not directly Linux related, but is IT security > related. What happens when someone changes their user name to a system > command and uses that name while playing a multi-player game on a system > that has audio input? The answer is amusing, but be warned some mild > obscenities are to be heard when people realize what has happened : > > youtube.com/watch?v=mWZLa4AnN5k#t=148 > > Bottom line, one more security issue we will have to consider in the years > ahead... Who really thought a voice command interface was a good idea? I hope they have (or add) an global option to turn that shit off. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 02:03:52 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:03:52 -0500 Subject: Security hack, sort of... In-Reply-To: <20140108214445.GN17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140108214445.GN17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140109020352.GA28462@node1.localdomain> On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 04:44:45PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 04:19:02PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > > youtube.com/watch?v=mWZLa4AnN5k#t=148 > > Who really thought a voice command interface was a good idea? > > I hope they have (or add) an global option to turn that shit off. I hope this works, "Are M Space Minus Are F Space Slash" -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 02:11:29 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:11:29 -0500 Subject: OpenELEC In-Reply-To: <52CDA8BE.4050302-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52CDA8BE.4050302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20140109021129.GB28462@node1.localdomain> Thanks Teddy, Finally, something for commodity PC. It's a step in the right direction. History will show that commodity PC crushed anything that fought it. If they can produce $200 Chromebook, then they can produce $200 PC. If they push it down to $100 PC, then ARM fads will disappear, along with used-PC market. -- William On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 02:36:30PM -0500, teddy wrote: > > It is a linux distro so it is relevant. > > http://openelec.tv/ > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHDddt4LhEk > > Unless you like to fuss with Raspberry I do not see the need for a > Raspberry or a Beagle. > I think these small units have trouble with 1080p playback. > > I just used a normal PC. > Dual Core with a decent DVI video card (6770) and a 2TB WD Green > Get a projector and setup your sound and your good to go. > > I prefer OpenELEC since it is very easy to install and setup. > > It can be running in 5 minutes and most addons work. > In XBMC or MythTV that may not be the case. > > A remote will be best, as a keyboard is clumsy. > > Teddy > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 02:12:47 2014 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:12:47 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107202652.GA27737@node1.localdomain> <1389135191.3159.2.camel@Nokia-N900> <20140108001607.GA30213@node1.localdomain> <20140108145205.GM17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140108151916.GA3634@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: > Why not continue with paper? There are advantages to paper, if you can > withstand the peer pressure :-) > -- For many years, I have used appointment books from the local Dollar Store. I particularly liked the one with lambs on the cover. When at a meeting like the Professional Engineers Ontario, and everyone pulled out their iwhatevers and blackberries to schedule something, it amused me to pull out the dollar store appointment book with the lambies. But then that Dollar Store folded and I couldn't get an appointment book in the right format. We'll see how KOrganizer works out. In any case, there is a Dollarama opening soon in my neighbourhood near Danforth and Pape, I may revert back to the paper version. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 02:32:15 2014 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:32:15 -0500 Subject: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? Message-ID: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> Some !@#$%^&* braindead webmasters insist on playing games with me based on the user-agent my browser sends. I guess I'll have to play along, so I need an uptodate list of User Agents to mix-n-match. Any websites anywhere? -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 02:43:22 2014 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:43:22 -0500 Subject: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: <20140109023215.GA31992-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > Some !@#$%^&* braindead webmasters insist on playing games with me > based on the user-agent my browser sends. I guess I'll have to play > along, so I need an uptodate list of User Agents to mix-n-match. Any > websites anywhere? :-) -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 http://psema4.com/pubkey.txt http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 02:59:19 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 21:59:19 -0500 Subject: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: <20140109023215.GA31992-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/user-agent-switcher/ On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > Some !@#$%^&* braindead webmasters insist on playing games with me > based on the user-agent my browser sends. I guess I'll have to play > along, so I need an uptodate list of User Agents to mix-n-match. Any > websites anywhere? > > -- > Walter Dnes > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 03:22:15 2014 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 22:22:15 -0500 Subject: Why was Teksavvy Down? Message-ID: <5a0f9e192343c4b16abb8844d28b0008.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Teksavvy was down for the afternoon and part of the evening. Anyone know the technical details? -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From iconnor-8+tXeFxsjZXBNxJ6UmF5jlaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 03:51:45 2014 From: iconnor-8+tXeFxsjZXBNxJ6UmF5jlaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Isaac Connor) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 22:51:45 -0500 Subject: Why was Teksavvy Down? In-Reply-To: <5a0f9e192343c4b16abb8844d28b0008.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <5a0f9e192343c4b16abb8844d28b0008.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <52CE1CD1.5070204@connortechnology.com> On 14-01-08 10:22 PM, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Teksavvy was down for the afternoon and part of the evening. Anyone know > the technical details? > Flooding in their chatham office. I'm still down. Cable is ok though. Isaac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gstrom57-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 03:55:54 2014 From: gstrom57-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 22:55:54 -0500 Subject: Why was Teksavvy Down? In-Reply-To: <52CE1CD1.5070204-8+tXeFxsjZXBNxJ6UmF5jlaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <5a0f9e192343c4b16abb8844d28b0008.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <52CE1CD1.5070204@connortechnology.com> Message-ID: <20140108225554.5cae9bbe@herring_sucker.example.org> On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 22:51:45 -0500 Isaac Connor wrote: > On 14-01-08 10:22 PM, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Teksavvy was down for the afternoon and part of the evening. Anyone > > know the technical details? > > > > Flooding in their chatham office. I'm still down. Cable is ok > though. > I'm in North York and I haven't noticed any problems. > Isaac > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Glen Strom gstrom57-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 05:22:26 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 00:22:26 -0500 Subject: Why was Teksavvy Down? In-Reply-To: <5a0f9e192343c4b16abb8844d28b0008.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <5a0f9e192343c4b16abb8844d28b0008.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20140109052226.GA30422@node1.localdomain> On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 10:22:15PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > Teksavvy was down for the afternoon and part of the evening. Anyone know > the technical details? I'm on cable, and I haven't noticed anything. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 16:44:28 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:44:28 -0500 Subject: Calendar app -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <1389033900.4128.2.camel@tecumseth3> <2024a2d98a2a1f2b046b57b03cde3f9f.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107030041.GA4028@node1.localdomain> <03fb1d7bd323f31082afafa065820f7a.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20140107202652.GA27737@node1.localdomain> <1389135191.3159.2.camel@Nokia-N900> <20140108001607.GA30213@node1.localdomain> <20140108145205.GM17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140108151916.GA3634@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52CED1EC.5010604@rogers.com> phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > But then that Dollar Store folded and I couldn't get an appointment book > in the right format. Don't you just hate those proprietary formats! ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 17:17:46 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:17:46 -0500 Subject: OpenELEC In-Reply-To: <20140109021129.GB28462-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52CDA8BE.4050302@gmail.com> <20140109021129.GB28462@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52CED9BA.5050902@gmail.com> On 14-01-08 09:11 PM, William Park wrote: > > History will show that commodity PC crushed anything that > fought it. Well, as long as that commodity PC is a laptop. The additional cost of ownership of a box ? in both peripherals and power use ? push it into the niche market now. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 17:27:19 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 12:27:19 -0500 Subject: Security hack, sort of... In-Reply-To: <20140109020352.GA28462-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140108214445.GN17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140109020352.GA28462@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: On 8 January 2014 21:03, William Park wrote: > On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 04:44:45PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 04:19:02PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > > > youtube.com/watch?v=mWZLa4AnN5k#t=148 > > > > Who really thought a voice command interface was a good idea? > > > > I hope they have (or add) an global option to turn that shit off. > > I hope this works, > "Are M Space Minus Are F Space Slash" > I was thinking along those lines. I think they'll change things pretty soon so you have to say something like "xbox CHARACTER are em space minus are eff space slash" so that there's a distinction between a command and a character name. Or alternatively you should have to say "xbox COMMAND " before it's executed at a system level. Although in either case the response by pranksters and hackers would be to embed the keyword into your character name. But having a single keyword would introduce what one would hope would be a more obvious mental trigger so people would think "I shouldn't say that." It's pretty ambiguous, isn't it? It'll get sorted as time passes, although not before more people get logged out and a few hard drives get wiped ... -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 20:28:29 2014 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:28:29 -0500 Subject: [SOLVED]: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20140109202829.GB3715@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 09:43:22PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote > On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > > Some !@#$%^&* braindead webmasters insist on playing games with me > > based on the user-agent my browser sends. I guess I'll have to play > > along, so I need an uptodate list of User Agents to mix-n-match. Any > > websites anywhere? > > :-) Thanks. For future reference... * all known software UA strings http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php * Chrome http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Chrome/ * IE http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Internet%20Explorer/ * Firefox http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Firefox/ -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 21:08:02 2014 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:08:02 -0500 Subject: [SOLVED]: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: <20140109202829.GB3715-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> <20140109202829.GB3715@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: That's very useful information, thank you very much. Renata Rocha http://renata.org On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 09:43:22PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote >> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: >> > Some !@#$%^&* braindead webmasters insist on playing games with me >> > based on the user-agent my browser sends. I guess I'll have to play >> > along, so I need an uptodate list of User Agents to mix-n-match. Any >> > websites anywhere? >> >> :-) > > Thanks. For future reference... > > * all known software UA strings > http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php > > * Chrome http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Chrome/ > * IE http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Internet%20Explorer/ > * Firefox http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Firefox/ > > > -- > Walter Dnes > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 9 21:08:18 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 16:08:18 -0500 Subject: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <52CF0FC2.9090209@sobac.com> And on a discussion forum for "User Agent Switcher" is a file of user agents suitable for importing into that plugin: http://forums.chrispederick.com/discussion/7/a-large-regularly-updated-import-list-of-user-agents --Bob. On 14-01-08 09:59 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/user-agent-switcher/ > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > >> Some !@#$%^&* braindead webmasters insist on playing games with me >> based on the user-agent my browser sends. I guess I'll have to play >> along, so I need an uptodate list of User Agents to mix-n-match. Any >> websites anywhere? >> >> -- >> Walter Dnes >> I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications >> -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 03:11:52 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 22:11:52 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser Message-ID: My colour ink jet all-in-one just died. I don't need photo quality colour, so was thinking that a colour laser would do. I also need the scan/copy function, not so much the fax feature. Any recommendations for a colour laser all-in-one? I'd rather have one box on my desk, but would appreciate knowing if having everything on one unit is a mistake. Having a couple of boxes would mean placing them in the basement (networked or print server), one floor down from the main pc. Just not as convenient. Naturally, it must be very linux compatible. Thanks for any advice. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 03:24:26 2014 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 22:24:26 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02c7e67a9fb2fc159691dc272c4666b3.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> We're using the Brother MFC-9125CN. It's been fine. It connects properly via network to this Linux Mint 16 system. To my surprise, once the printer was working the scanner could be accessed from the same computer without any additional fiddling, using Simple Scan, which is adequate for our purposes. I usually print in monochrome. The colour quality seems fine, but I haven't used it much. As well, it functions as a copy machine and that's really handy in this small office. I haven't tried the Fax function. It comes with a massive manual, which I have not read..except to find out how print out the page with the printer's network parameters. So the operation is reasonably intuitive. Check the cost of the cartridges before buying. My impression is that the Brother cartridges are readily available and reasonably priced. (That wasn't the case with a Lexmark printer that I had, where the cartridges were nearly $200 each!). Peter > My colour ink jet all-in-one just died. I don't need photo quality > colour, so was thinking that a colour laser would do. I also need the > scan/copy function, not so much the fax feature. > > Any recommendations for a colour laser all-in-one? > > I'd rather have one box on my desk, but would appreciate knowing if > having everything on one unit is a mistake. Having a couple of boxes > would mean placing them in the basement (networked or print server), one > floor down from the main pc. Just not as convenient. > > Naturally, it must be very linux compatible. > > Thanks for any advice. > > John. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From maxcess-KK0ffGbhmjU at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 14:04:58 2014 From: maxcess-KK0ffGbhmjU at public.gmane.org (Abby Bassie-Cripps) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:04:58 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser Message-ID: <20140110140458.44000@gmx.com> We are using an HP colour laser model CP1518ni, it has been a cheaper choice per print page and very good quality. Cartages cost range from 70 to 130 (per cartridge) but it has been worth it. It also connects via our network and we have had no issues with our win xp, win 7&8, iMax, and all of our Linux versions. Happy shopping ----- Original Message ----- From: John Moniz Sent: 01/09/14 10:11 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: All-in-one Colour Laser My colour ink jet all-in-one just died. I don't need photo quality colour, so was thinking that a colour laser would do. I also need the scan/copy function, not so much the fax feature. Any recommendations for a colour laser all-in-one? I'd rather have one box on my desk, but would appreciate knowing if having everything on one unit is a mistake. Having a couple of boxes would mean placing them in the basement (networked or print server), one floor down from the main pc. Just not as convenient. Naturally, it must be very linux compatible. Thanks for any advice. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Kind regards Abby 416 799 3969 www.maxcess.info - Health Products: NFuse, ATP, Cellgevity, MaxGXL - abby at maxcess.info www.nuthy.ca - Computer IT, Tutor & Graphic Design - geekette-mfPn/Ppx9ZE at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 14:26:13 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:26:13 -0500 Subject: [SOLVED]: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: <20140109202829.GB3715-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> <20140109202829.GB3715@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <52D00305.7050002@gmail.com> On 14-01-09 03:28 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > > * all known software UA strings > http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php User agent detection and capability determination is part of the HTML5 standard. If you're pretending to be something you're not, you're on your own with how well current websites will respond. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 15:57:15 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:57:15 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 09, 2014 at 10:11:52PM -0500, John Moniz wrote: > My colour ink jet all-in-one just died. I don't need photo quality > colour, so was thinking that a colour laser would do. I also need > the scan/copy function, not so much the fax feature. > > Any recommendations for a colour laser all-in-one? > > I'd rather have one box on my desk, but would appreciate knowing if > having everything on one unit is a mistake. Having a couple of boxes > would mean placing them in the basement (networked or print server), > one floor down from the main pc. Just not as convenient. > > Naturally, it must be very linux compatible. > > Thanks for any advice. Certainly a network connected printer with postscript support built in means it will always work. Anything else means worrying about drivers forever. It does tend to cost a bit more of course, but also tends to be better printers. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 15:59:07 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:59:07 -0500 Subject: [SOLVED]: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: <52D00305.7050002-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> <20140109202829.GB3715@waltdnes.org> <52D00305.7050002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20140110155907.GP17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 09:26:13AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 14-01-09 03:28 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > > > > * all known software UA strings > > http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php > > User agent detection and capability determination is part of the HTML5 > standard. If you're pretending to be something you're not, you're on > your own with how well current websites will respond. Given the quality of what web developers often make, you are on your own already. They obviously aren't testing with anything other than their choice of browser and often arbitrarily declare that it isn't supported on any other browser, and hence you ahve to "lie" to work around their arbitrary blocking. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 16:11:12 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:11:12 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: <20140110155715.GO17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 01/10/2014 10:57 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Jan 09, 2014 at 10:11:52PM -0500, John Moniz wrote: >> My colour ink jet all-in-one just died. I don't need photo quality >> colour, so was thinking that a colour laser would do. I also need >> the scan/copy function, not so much the fax feature. >> >> Any recommendations for a colour laser all-in-one? >> >> I'd rather have one box on my desk, but would appreciate knowing if >> having everything on one unit is a mistake. Having a couple of boxes >> would mean placing them in the basement (networked or print server), >> one floor down from the main pc. Just not as convenient. >> >> Naturally, it must be very linux compatible. >> >> Thanks for any advice. > Certainly a network connected printer with postscript support built in > means it will always work. Anything else means worrying about drivers > forever. > > It does tend to cost a bit more of course, but also tends to be better > printers. > What about scanning? I suppose I still have to worry about drivers for that function? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 16:28:40 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:28:40 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140110162840.GQ17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 11:11:12AM -0500, John Moniz wrote: > What about scanning? I suppose I still have to worry about drivers > for that function? Yeah probably. I have seen some higher end devices that can scan to pdf and email it. I guess that doesn't require a driver. I was just thinking of printers, not scanners or copiers or other multi function devices. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 17:06:19 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:06:19 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <52D0288B.5070805@gmail.com> On 14-01-10 11:11 AM, John Moniz wrote: > > What about scanning? I suppose I still have to worry about drivers for > that function? Brother pretty much rely on x86/x86_64 binary drivers for printing and scanning. That might be a problem for you if you're not running x86 systems. I find it easier to scan to my AIO's SD card (I have an Epson WorkForce WF-7520 large format inkjet) which appears on the network as a Samba share. While there are scanner drivers for SANE for this, they're not very smart: duplex pages, for instance, appear upside down. The PDFs retrieved from the network share are all right-way-up. I've found the duplex scanning and network storage very handy, and if/when I have to replace the Epson, they'll be high on the list. It's at times like this I wish that the Linux Printing Database still worked. It's got lots of broken links since it joined the L*n*x F**nd*t**n (name redacted to prevent certain list-members from exploding). cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 17:13:13 2014 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:13:13 -0500 Subject: More recent glibc for Ubuntu 10.04 ? Message-ID: <1389373993.4047.6.camel@tecumseth3> I'm trying to run OpenSCAD under Ubuntu 10.04. I'm finding that the pre-built package that installs doesn't support the latest OpenSCAD features, and the most up-to-date OpenSCAD installed from bare objects needs advanced versions of glibc. I'm getting error messages: /usr/local/bin/../lib/openscad//openscad: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.15' not found (required by /usr/local/bin/../lib/openscad/libQtGui.so.4) /usr/local/bin/../lib/openscad//openscad: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.15' not found (required by /usr/local/bin/../lib/openscad/libQtCore.so.4) /usr/local/bin/../lib/openscad//openscad: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.17' not found (required by /usr/local/bin/../lib/openscad/libstdc++.so.6) /usr/local/bin/../lib/openscad//openscad: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.15' not found (required by /usr/local/bin/../lib/openscad/libaudio.so.2) readelf finds a most recent version of GLIBC_2.11 in that library. Is there a simple fix for this, or is it time to get a new hard drive and shift to the latest Debian? (Not cool with the recent GUI churn, and don't see the need for my address book to live on Ubuntu One.) Thanks, Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 18:46:44 2014 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio Neves) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:46:44 -0500 Subject: [SOLVED]: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: <20140110155907.GP17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> <20140109202829.GB3715@waltdnes.org> <52D00305.7050002@gmail.com> <20140110155907.GP17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Depending on what you're trying to achieve, testing for user agents might not be the best idea. If we're talking about client-side stuff, the best practice is to test for browser features and ignore the UA. *Fabio Neves (FZero)* http://fzero.ca | http://nostep.ca | http://bitbang.ca On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 09:26:13AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > On 14-01-09 03:28 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > > > > > > * all known software UA strings > > > http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php > > > > User agent detection and capability determination is part of the HTML5 > > standard. If you're pretending to be something you're not, you're on > > your own with how well current websites will respond. > > Given the quality of what web developers often make, you are on your > own already. They obviously aren't testing with anything other than their > choice of browser and often arbitrarily declare that it isn't supported > on any other browser, and hence you ahve to "lie" to work around their > arbitrary blocking. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 19:02:45 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:02:45 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: <52D0288B.5070805-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52D0288B.5070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/10/2014 12:06 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 14-01-10 11:11 AM, John Moniz wrote: >> What about scanning? I suppose I still have to worry about drivers for >> that function? > Brother pretty much rely on x86/x86_64 binary drivers for printing and > scanning. That might be a problem for you if you're not running x86 systems. > > I find it easier to scan to my AIO's SD card (I have an Epson WorkForce > WF-7520 large format inkjet) which appears on the network as a Samba > share. While there are scanner drivers for SANE for this, they're not > very smart: duplex pages, for instance, appear upside down. The PDFs > retrieved from the network share are all right-way-up. > > I've found the duplex scanning and network storage very handy, and > if/when I have to replace the Epson, they'll be high on the list. > > It's at times like this I wish that the Linux Printing Database still > worked. It's got lots of broken links since it joined the L*n*x > F**nd*t**n (name redacted to prevent certain list-members from exploding). > > cheers, > Stewart Stewart, you are doing all of your printing on an inkjet? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 19:06:38 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:06:38 -0500 Subject: [SOLVED]: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> <20140109202829.GB3715@waltdnes.org> <52D00305.7050002@gmail.com> <20140110155907.GP17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Fabio Neves wrote: > Depending on what you're trying to achieve, testing for user agents might > not be the best idea. If we're talking about client-side stuff, the best > practice is to test for browser features and ignore the UA. > You're perfectly correct that the appropriate way for applications to check for the user's browser's capabilities is to test for browser features. The original problem of the poster was to try to work around the problem of applications that fail to follow decent practice, but, instead, use the browser name + OS name to indicate compatibility, where the only combinations supported were some small set chosen from (browser, os) picked from (ie, small subset of Chrome/Mozilla) and (MacOS, Windows). -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 20:00:47 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:00:47 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52D0288B.5070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D0516F.8090802@utoronto.ca> On 14-01-10 02:02 PM, John Moniz wrote: >> I find it easier to scan to my AIO's SD card (I have an Epson WorkForce >> WF-7520 large format inkjet) which appears on the network as a Samba >> share. While there are scanner drivers for SANE for this, they're not >> very smart: duplex pages, for instance, appear upside down. The PDFs >> retrieved from the network share are all right-way-up. > Stewart, you are doing all of your printing on an inkjet? For photographic prints, dye and pigment inkjet is the way to go at home or small office. I have made spectacularly good archival quality 13x19 prints from The Gimp with my Epson Stylus 1400 using cups with an ICC profile for the paper being used. Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 20:22:58 2014 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:22:58 -0500 Subject: [SOLVED]: Is there an uptodate list of current browser user agents somewhere? In-Reply-To: <52D00305.7050002-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20140109023215.GA31992@waltdnes.org> <20140109202829.GB3715@waltdnes.org> <52D00305.7050002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20140110202257.GA6311@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 09:26:13AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote > On 14-01-09 03:28 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > > > > * all known software UA strings > > http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php > > User agent detection and capability determination is part of the HTML5 > standard. If you're pretending to be something you're not, you're on > your own with how well current websites will respond. 1) I'm a paying subscriber of live365.com internet radio. If I go in with Firefox on linux, using default UA, I get a stripped-down list of player options... i.e. only the "new-and-improved" Flash player, which doesn't work under linux. If I go in as Firefox under Windows, I get the new player (which doesn't work), the older player (which *DOES* work for me), and the client-side-media-player option, e.g. mplayer or mpg123 (and xmms long ago), which also works for me. 2) I'm getting serious about transitioning over to uzbl webbrowser. It's based on webkit. When I go to nhl.com, the website sees "webkit" and a browser the webmaster never heard of, so they assume I'm using a smartphone and redirect me to the mobile site. Obligatory xkcd comics http://xkcd.com/1174/ http://xkcd.com/869/ At least they allow me to click a button go to the main website, and don't nag me for the mobile site. It's stuff like this that annoys me. The git version of uzbl allows me to simultaneously launch multiple instances, using different config files, which comes in useful. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 10 20:40:31 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:40:31 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52D0288B.5070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D05ABF.7040506@gmail.com> On 14-01-10 02:02 PM, John Moniz wrote: > > Stewart, you are doing all of your printing on an inkjet? No, very little. We also have a B&W duplex Brother laser for volume stuff. The inkjet's for stuff that needs colour, large format, or the occasional photograph. It mostly gets used as a sheet-fed scanner. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 01:05:27 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:05:27 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching Message-ID: Hello Everybody, I am a total newbie to kernel hacking and I have a question. Am trying to patch the Network Subsystem and changing the net_random() to direct calls of prandom_u32. Why ? Because it is harder to audit / grep and new commits actually use prandom_u32 only am told. u32 prandom_u32(void); /* defined in include/linux/random.h: */ #define net_random() prandom_u32() /* defined in include/linux/net.h */ Everything works as expected until I get to net/core/neighbour.c and then patch fails to apply. The diff is here: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- diff --git a/net/core/neighbour.c b/net/core/neighbour.c index 47d834e..ea97361 100644 --- a/net/core/neighbour.c +++ b/net/core/neighbour.c @@ -117,7 +117,7 @@ static void neigh_cleanup_and_release(struct neighbour *neig unsigned long neigh_rand_reach_time(unsigned long base) { - return base ? (prandom_u32() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; + return base ? (net_random() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; } EXPORT_SYMBOL(neigh_rand_reach_time); @@ -1415,7 +1415,7 @@ void pneigh_enqueue(struct neigh_table *tbl, struct neigh_ struct sk_buff *skb) { unsigned long now = jiffies; - unsigned long sched_next = now + (prandom_u32() % + unsigned long sched_next = now + (net_random() % NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_DELAY)); if (tbl->proxy_queue.qlen > NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_QLEN)) { ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can use some help and guidance please, what am I doing wrong ? Or not seeing ? It's just this neighbor.c file that is doing this and I am stumped. Thank you. Aruna -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 01:36:27 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:36:27 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What patch error are you getting? You can see what the patch is doing, you can just go put the changed two lines in with editor. -tl On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Hello Everybody, > > I am a total newbie to kernel hacking and I have a question. Am trying to > patch the Network Subsystem and changing the net_random() to direct calls > of prandom_u32. Why ? Because it is > harder to audit / grep and new commits actually use prandom_u32 only am > told. > > u32 prandom_u32(void); /* defined in include/linux/random.h: */ > > #define net_random() prandom_u32() /* defined in > include/linux/net.h */ > > Everything works as expected until I get to net/core/neighbour.c and then > patch fails to apply. > > The diff is here: > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > diff --git a/net/core/neighbour.c b/net/core/neighbour.c > index 47d834e..ea97361 100644 > --- a/net/core/neighbour.c > +++ b/net/core/neighbour.c > @@ -117,7 +117,7 @@ static void neigh_cleanup_and_release(struct neighbour > *neig > > unsigned long neigh_rand_reach_time(unsigned long base) > { > - return base ? (prandom_u32() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; > + return base ? (net_random() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; > } > EXPORT_SYMBOL(neigh_rand_reach_time); > > @@ -1415,7 +1415,7 @@ void pneigh_enqueue(struct neigh_table *tbl, struct > neigh_ > struct sk_buff *skb) > { > unsigned long now = jiffies; > - unsigned long sched_next = now + (prandom_u32() % > + unsigned long sched_next = now + (net_random() % > NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_DELAY)); > > if (tbl->proxy_queue.qlen > NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_QLEN)) { > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I can use some help and guidance please, what am I doing wrong ? Or not > seeing ? It's just this neighbor.c file that is doing this and I am > stumped. > > Thank you. > Aruna > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 01:42:16 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:42:16 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ted believe me I have tried and tried and finally decided to ask for help. The patch errors are below: aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/next-net/net-next$ git format-patch --subject-prefix="PATCH v1" HEAD^ 0001-Network-Subsystem-v2.patch aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/next-net/net-next$ git apply --check 0001-Network-Subsystem-v2.patch error: patch failed: net/core/neighbour.c:117 error: net/core/neighbour.c: patch does not apply It makes no sense to me because all the other files compile clean nil errors :( On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:36 PM, ted leslie wrote: > What patch error are you getting? > > You can see what the patch is doing, you can just go put the changed two > lines in with editor. > -tl > > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < > aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> Hello Everybody, >> >> I am a total newbie to kernel hacking and I have a question. Am trying to >> patch the Network Subsystem and changing the net_random() to direct calls >> of prandom_u32. Why ? Because it is >> harder to audit / grep and new commits actually use prandom_u32 only am >> told. >> >> u32 prandom_u32(void); /* defined in include/linux/random.h: */ >> >> #define net_random() prandom_u32() /* defined in >> include/linux/net.h */ >> >> Everything works as expected until I get to net/core/neighbour.c and then >> patch fails to apply. >> >> The diff is here: >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> diff --git a/net/core/neighbour.c b/net/core/neighbour.c >> index 47d834e..ea97361 100644 >> --- a/net/core/neighbour.c >> +++ b/net/core/neighbour.c >> @@ -117,7 +117,7 @@ static void neigh_cleanup_and_release(struct >> neighbour *neig >> >> unsigned long neigh_rand_reach_time(unsigned long base) >> { >> - return base ? (prandom_u32() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; >> + return base ? (net_random() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; >> } >> EXPORT_SYMBOL(neigh_rand_reach_time); >> >> @@ -1415,7 +1415,7 @@ void pneigh_enqueue(struct neigh_table *tbl, struct >> neigh_ >> struct sk_buff *skb) >> { >> unsigned long now = jiffies; >> - unsigned long sched_next = now + (prandom_u32() % >> + unsigned long sched_next = now + (net_random() % >> NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_DELAY)); >> >> if (tbl->proxy_queue.qlen > NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_QLEN)) { >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I can use some help and guidance please, what am I doing wrong ? Or not >> seeing ? It's just this neighbor.c file that is doing this and I am >> stumped. >> >> Thank you. >> Aruna >> >> >> > > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 01:53:54 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:53:54 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I ran make defconfig, ran make allyesconfig, then make scripts and finally make M= net/ to build tehy subsytem alone and this is what it tells me ... aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/dev/linux-git$ make M=net/ WARNING: Symbol version dump /media/kernel-dev/dev/linux-git/Module.symvers is missing; modules will have no dependencies and modversions. CC net/socket.o CC net/802/fddi.o LD net/802/built-in.o CC net/core/sock.o CC net/core/request_sock.o CC net/core/skbuff.o CC net/core/iovec.o CC net/core/datagram.o CC net/core/stream.o CC net/core/scm.o CC net/core/gen_stats.o CC net/core/gen_estimator.o CC net/core/net_namespace.o CC net/core/secure_seq.o CC net/core/flow_dissector.o CC net/core/sysctl_net_core.o CC net/core/dev.o CC net/core/ethtool.o CC net/core/dev_addr_lists.o CC net/core/dst.o CC net/core/netevent.o CC net/core/neighbour.o net/core/neighbour.c: In function ?pneigh_enqueue?: net/core/neighbour.c:1396: error: implicit declaration of function ?NEIGH_VAR? net/core/neighbour.c:1396: error: ?PROXY_DELAY? undeclared (first use in this function) net/core/neighbour.c:1396: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once net/core/neighbour.c:1396: error: for each function it appears in.) net/core/neighbour.c:1403: error: ?PROXY_QLEN? undeclared (first use in this function) net/core/neighbour.c:1423: warning: ISO C90 forbids mixed declarations and code net/core/neighbour.c:1423: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:1423: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:1427: error: invalid storage class for function ?lookup_neigh_parms? net/core/neighbour.c:1471: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_parms_alloc? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:1439: note: previous definition of ?neigh_parms_alloc? was here net/core/neighbour.c:1471: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:1471: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:1474: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_rcu_free_parms? net/core/neighbour.c:1502: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_parms_release? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:1481: note: previous definition of ?neigh_parms_release? was here net/core/neighbour.c:1502: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:1502: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:1505: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_parms_destroy? net/core/neighbour.c:1513: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_table_init_no_netlink? net/core/neighbour.c:1577: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_table_init? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:1557: note: previous definition of ?neigh_table_init? was here net/core/neighbour.c:1577: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:1577: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:1613: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_table_clear? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:1579: note: previous definition of ?neigh_table_clear? was here net/core/neighbour.c:1613: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:1613: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:1616: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_delete? net/core/neighbour.c:1680: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_add? net/core/neighbour.c:1778: error: invalid storage class for function ?neightbl_fill_parms? net/core/neighbour.c:1816: error: invalid storage class for function ?neightbl_fill_info? net/core/neighbour.c:1905: error: invalid storage class for function ?neightbl_fill_param_info? net/core/neighbour.c:1958: error: invalid storage class for function ?neightbl_set? net/core/neighbour.c:2093: error: invalid storage class for function ?neightbl_dump_info? net/core/neighbour.c:2143: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_fill_info? net/core/neighbour.c:2196: error: invalid storage class for function ?pneigh_fill_info? net/core/neighbour.c:2224: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_update_notify? net/core/neighbour.c:2231: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_dump_table? net/core/neighbour.c:2272: error: invalid storage class for function ?pneigh_dump_table? net/core/neighbour.c:2311: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_dump_info? net/core/neighbour.c:2369: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_for_each? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:2349: note: previous definition of ?neigh_for_each? was here net/core/neighbour.c:2369: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:2369: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:2404: error: non-static declaration of ?__neigh_for_each_release? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:2372: note: previous definition of ?__neigh_for_each_release? was here net/core/neighbour.c:2404: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:2404: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:2409: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_get_first? net/core/neighbour.c:2450: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_get_next? net/core/neighbour.c:2496: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_get_idx? net/core/neighbour.c:2511: error: invalid storage class for function ?pneigh_get_first? net/core/neighbour.c:2534: error: invalid storage class for function ?pneigh_get_next? net/core/neighbour.c:2560: error: invalid storage class for function ?pneigh_get_idx? net/core/neighbour.c:2575: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_get_idx_any? net/core/neighbour.c:2601: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_seq_start? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:2587: note: previous definition of ?neigh_seq_start? was here net/core/neighbour.c:2601: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:2601: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:2628: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_seq_next? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:2603: note: previous definition of ?neigh_seq_next? was here net/core/neighbour.c:2628: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:2628: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:2635: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_seq_stop? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:2630: note: previous definition of ?neigh_seq_stop? was here net/core/neighbour.c:2635: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:2635: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:2640: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_stat_seq_start? net/core/neighbour.c:2657: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_stat_seq_next? net/core/neighbour.c:2671: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_stat_seq_stop? net/core/neighbour.c:2676: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_stat_seq_show? net/core/neighbour.c:2710: error: initializer element is not constant net/core/neighbour.c:2710: error: (near initialization for ?neigh_stat_seq_ops.start?) net/core/neighbour.c:2711: error: initializer element is not constant net/core/neighbour.c:2711: error: (near initialization for ?neigh_stat_seq_ops.next?) net/core/neighbour.c:2712: error: initializer element is not constant net/core/neighbour.c:2712: error: (near initialization for ?neigh_stat_seq_ops.stop?) net/core/neighbour.c:2713: error: initializer element is not constant net/core/neighbour.c:2713: error: (near initialization for ?neigh_stat_seq_ops.show?) net/core/neighbour.c:2717: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_stat_seq_open? net/core/neighbour.c:2729: error: initializer element is not constant net/core/neighbour.c:2729: error: (near initialization for ?neigh_stat_seq_fops.open?) net/core/neighbour.c:2727: warning: ISO C90 forbids mixed declarations and code net/core/neighbour.c:2738: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_nlmsg_size? net/core/neighbour.c:2747: error: invalid storage class for function ?__neigh_notify? net/core/neighbour.c:2774: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_app_ns? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:2770: note: previous definition of ?neigh_app_ns? was here net/core/neighbour.c:2774: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:2774: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:2783: error: invalid storage class for function ?proc_unres_qlen? net/core/neighbour.c:2879: error: initializer element is not constant net/core/neighbour.c:2879: error: (near initialization for ?neigh_sysctl_template.neigh_vars[7].proc_handler?) net/core/neighbour.c:3035: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_sysctl_register? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:2960: note: previous definition of ?neigh_sysctl_register? was here net/core/neighbour.c:3035: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:3035: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:3046: error: non-static declaration of ?neigh_sysctl_unregister? follows static declaration net/core/neighbour.c:3037: note: previous definition of ?neigh_sysctl_unregister? was here net/core/neighbour.c:3046: warning: ?__used__? attribute ignored net/core/neighbour.c:3046: error: section attribute cannot be specified for local variables net/core/neighbour.c:3051: error: invalid storage class for function ?neigh_init? net/core/neighbour.c:3063: error: initializer element is not constant net/core/neighbour.c:3063: error: expected declaration or statement at end of input net/core/neighbour.c:2727: warning: unused variable ?neigh_stat_seq_fops? net/core/neighbour.c:1396: warning: unused variable ?sched_next? make[2]: *** [net/core/neighbour.o] Error 1 make[1]: *** [net/core] Error 2 make: *** [_module_net] Error 2 aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/dev/linux-git$ On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:42 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Ted believe me I have tried and tried and finally decided to ask for help. > The patch errors are below: > > aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/next-net/net-next$ git format-patch > --subject-prefix="PATCH v1" HEAD^ > 0001-Network-Subsystem-v2.patch > > aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/next-net/net-next$ git apply > --check 0001-Network-Subsystem-v2.patch > > error: patch failed: net/core/neighbour.c:117 > > error: net/core/neighbour.c: patch does not apply > > It makes no sense to me because all the other files compile clean nil > errors :( > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:36 PM, ted leslie wrote: > >> What patch error are you getting? >> >> You can see what the patch is doing, you can just go put the changed two >> lines in with editor. >> -tl >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < >> aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Everybody, >>> >>> I am a total newbie to kernel hacking and I have a question. Am trying >>> to patch the Network Subsystem and changing the net_random() to direct >>> calls of prandom_u32. Why ? Because it is >>> harder to audit / grep and new commits actually use prandom_u32 only am >>> told. >>> >>> u32 prandom_u32(void); /* defined in include/linux/random.h: */ >>> >>> #define net_random() prandom_u32() /* defined in >>> include/linux/net.h */ >>> >>> Everything works as expected until I get to net/core/neighbour.c and >>> then patch fails to apply. >>> >>> The diff is here: >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> diff --git a/net/core/neighbour.c b/net/core/neighbour.c >>> index 47d834e..ea97361 100644 >>> --- a/net/core/neighbour.c >>> +++ b/net/core/neighbour.c >>> @@ -117,7 +117,7 @@ static void neigh_cleanup_and_release(struct >>> neighbour *neig >>> >>> unsigned long neigh_rand_reach_time(unsigned long base) >>> { >>> - return base ? (prandom_u32() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; >>> + return base ? (net_random() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; >>> } >>> EXPORT_SYMBOL(neigh_rand_reach_time); >>> >>> @@ -1415,7 +1415,7 @@ void pneigh_enqueue(struct neigh_table *tbl, >>> struct neigh_ >>> struct sk_buff *skb) >>> { >>> unsigned long now = jiffies; >>> - unsigned long sched_next = now + (prandom_u32() % >>> + unsigned long sched_next = now + (net_random() % >>> NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_DELAY)); >>> >>> if (tbl->proxy_queue.qlen > NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_QLEN)) { >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> I can use some help and guidance please, what am I doing wrong ? Or not >>> seeing ? It's just this neighbor.c file that is doing this and I am >>> stumped. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> Aruna >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > *Aruna Hewapathirane* > Consultant/Trainer > Phone : 647-709-9269 > Website: Open Source Solutions > > > > > > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 02:03:35 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:03:35 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not familiar with Git patch, but I guess it is just "patch". follow this https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/msysgit/6NNvXeyd5xM -tl On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:42 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Ted believe me I have tried and tried and finally decided to ask for help. > The patch errors are below: > > aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/next-net/net-next$ git format-patch > --subject-prefix="PATCH v1" HEAD^ > 0001-Network-Subsystem-v2.patch > > aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/next-net/net-next$ git apply > --check 0001-Network-Subsystem-v2.patch > > error: patch failed: net/core/neighbour.c:117 > > error: net/core/neighbour.c: patch does not apply > > It makes no sense to me because all the other files compile clean nil > errors :( > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:36 PM, ted leslie wrote: > >> What patch error are you getting? >> >> You can see what the patch is doing, you can just go put the changed two >> lines in with editor. >> -tl >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < >> aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Everybody, >>> >>> I am a total newbie to kernel hacking and I have a question. Am trying >>> to patch the Network Subsystem and changing the net_random() to direct >>> calls of prandom_u32. Why ? Because it is >>> harder to audit / grep and new commits actually use prandom_u32 only am >>> told. >>> >>> u32 prandom_u32(void); /* defined in include/linux/random.h: */ >>> >>> #define net_random() prandom_u32() /* defined in >>> include/linux/net.h */ >>> >>> Everything works as expected until I get to net/core/neighbour.c and >>> then patch fails to apply. >>> >>> The diff is here: >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> diff --git a/net/core/neighbour.c b/net/core/neighbour.c >>> index 47d834e..ea97361 100644 >>> --- a/net/core/neighbour.c >>> +++ b/net/core/neighbour.c >>> @@ -117,7 +117,7 @@ static void neigh_cleanup_and_release(struct >>> neighbour *neig >>> >>> unsigned long neigh_rand_reach_time(unsigned long base) >>> { >>> - return base ? (prandom_u32() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; >>> + return base ? (net_random() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; >>> } >>> EXPORT_SYMBOL(neigh_rand_reach_time); >>> >>> @@ -1415,7 +1415,7 @@ void pneigh_enqueue(struct neigh_table *tbl, >>> struct neigh_ >>> struct sk_buff *skb) >>> { >>> unsigned long now = jiffies; >>> - unsigned long sched_next = now + (prandom_u32() % >>> + unsigned long sched_next = now + (net_random() % >>> NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_DELAY)); >>> >>> if (tbl->proxy_queue.qlen > NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_QLEN)) { >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> I can use some help and guidance please, what am I doing wrong ? Or not >>> seeing ? It's just this neighbor.c file that is doing this and I am >>> stumped. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> Aruna >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > *Aruna Hewapathirane* > Consultant/Trainer > Phone : 647-709-9269 > Website: Open Source Solutions > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 02:12:50 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:12:50 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank's Ted will go through and see... On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:03 PM, ted leslie wrote: > Not familiar with Git patch, but I guess it is just "patch". > follow this > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/msysgit/6NNvXeyd5xM > > -tl > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:42 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < > aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> Ted believe me I have tried and tried and finally decided to ask for >> help. The patch errors are below: >> >> aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/next-net/net-next$ git >> format-patch --subject-prefix="PATCH v1" HEAD^ >> 0001-Network-Subsystem-v2.patch >> >> aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/next-net/net-next$ git apply >> --check 0001-Network-Subsystem-v2.patch >> >> error: patch failed: net/core/neighbour.c:117 >> >> error: net/core/neighbour.c: patch does not apply >> >> It makes no sense to me because all the other files compile clean nil >> errors :( >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:36 PM, ted leslie wrote: >> >>> What patch error are you getting? >>> >>> You can see what the patch is doing, you can just go put the changed two >>> lines in with editor. >>> -tl >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < >>> aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Everybody, >>>> >>>> I am a total newbie to kernel hacking and I have a question. Am trying >>>> to patch the Network Subsystem and changing the net_random() to direct >>>> calls of prandom_u32. Why ? Because it is >>>> harder to audit / grep and new commits actually use prandom_u32 only >>>> am told. >>>> >>>> u32 prandom_u32(void); /* defined in include/linux/random.h: */ >>>> >>>> #define net_random() prandom_u32() /* defined in >>>> include/linux/net.h */ >>>> >>>> Everything works as expected until I get to net/core/neighbour.c and >>>> then patch fails to apply. >>>> >>>> The diff is here: >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> diff --git a/net/core/neighbour.c b/net/core/neighbour.c >>>> index 47d834e..ea97361 100644 >>>> --- a/net/core/neighbour.c >>>> +++ b/net/core/neighbour.c >>>> @@ -117,7 +117,7 @@ static void neigh_cleanup_and_release(struct >>>> neighbour *neig >>>> >>>> unsigned long neigh_rand_reach_time(unsigned long base) >>>> { >>>> - return base ? (prandom_u32() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; >>>> + return base ? (net_random() % base) + (base >> 1) : 0; >>>> } >>>> EXPORT_SYMBOL(neigh_rand_reach_time); >>>> >>>> @@ -1415,7 +1415,7 @@ void pneigh_enqueue(struct neigh_table *tbl, >>>> struct neigh_ >>>> struct sk_buff *skb) >>>> { >>>> unsigned long now = jiffies; >>>> - unsigned long sched_next = now + (prandom_u32() % >>>> + unsigned long sched_next = now + (net_random() % >>>> NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_DELAY)); >>>> >>>> if (tbl->proxy_queue.qlen > NEIGH_VAR(p, PROXY_QLEN)) { >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> I can use some help and guidance please, what am I doing wrong ? Or not >>>> seeing ? It's just this neighbor.c file that is doing this and I am >>>> stumped. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> Aruna >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> *Aruna Hewapathirane* >> Consultant/Trainer >> Phone : 647-709-9269 >> Website: Open Source Solutions >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 15:47:58 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:47:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Aruna Hewapathirane | I ran make defconfig, ran make allyesconfig, then make scripts and finally | make M= net/ to build tehy subsytem alone and this is what it tells me ... | | aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/dev/linux-git$ make M=net/ It has been years since I built a kernel -- there rarely seems to be a need. I recommend that you start with clean source, without your patch, and try building. It will likely be a learning experience. Only patch after you have perfected building and installing. I infer from previous posts that you are using Ubuntu. Ubuntu has its own packaged kernels and hence its own protocol for building a kernel. Try (1) starting from one of their kernel source packages, and (2) using their official method of building the kernel. That should minimize the chance of problems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 16:09:35 2014 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:09:35 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52D16CBF.2080907@ve3syb.ca> On 14-01-10 08:53 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > I ran make defconfig, ran make allyesconfig, then make scripts and finally > make M= net/ to build tehy subsytem alone and this is what it tells me ... > > aruna at aruna-desktop:/media/kernel-dev/dev/linux-git$ make M=net/ > > WARNING: Symbol version dump /media/kernel-dev/dev/linux-git/Module.symvers > is missing; modules will have no dependencies and modversions. [snip] > CC net/core/neighbour.o > net/core/neighbour.c: In function ?pneigh_enqueue?: > net/core/neighbour.c:1396: error: implicit declaration of function ?NEIGH_VAR? > net/core/neighbour.c:1396: error: ?PROXY_DELAY? undeclared (first use in > this function) > net/core/neighbour.c:1396: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported > only once > net/core/neighbour.c:1396: error: for each function it appears in.) > net/core/neighbour.c:1403: error: ?PROXY_QLEN? undeclared (first use in this > function) Based on those error messages you are missing a #include. As someone else suggested, make sure you can build a working kernel from source using clean code before you start applying patches. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 22:57:40 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:57:40 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >It has been years since I built a kernel -- there rarely seems to be a >need. This is my first one. Simply wanted to see if I can build a kernel to match and fit my hardware, the documentation says that can make things lighter and faster ? >I recommend that you start with clean source, without your patch, and >try building. It will likely be a learning experience. Understood and will comply and yes very much a learning process here :-) >Only patch after you have perfected building and installing. Understood again,, >I infer from previous posts that you are using Ubuntu. Ubuntu has its >own packaged kernels and hence its own protocol for building a kernel. >Try >(1) starting from one of their kernel source packages, and >(2) using their official method of building the kernel. I have a soft spot for Ubuntu because I cut my teeth on Karmic But am looking at Cent-OS, Fedora also Backtrack( Kali) and Slackware. Slackware one needs advanced know-how and knowledge to configure which am yet to attain, not for newbies I felt. So am not chained to ubuntu am open to alternatives... just thought knowing the kernel compiling and build process will help later to tweak things so I have a system that is fast. >That should minimize the chance of problems. Many thank's Hugh for all the pointers :-) -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 23:00:54 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:00:54 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <52D16CBF.2080907-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D16CBF.2080907@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: >Based on those error messages you are missing a #include. As someone else suggested, make sure you can build a working >kernel from source using clean code before you start applying patches. Thank you Kevin I will do so... actually it was a problem with git. Correction, not a problem with git but my lack of familiarity with the usage and syntax of git :-))) > -- > Cheers! > > Kevin. > > http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that > distract > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're > | powerful!" > #include | --Chris Hardwick > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 23:03:02 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:03:02 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: " lighter and faster" that means go with the "GCC screen saver" linux distribution or as its also known by the name gentoo. :) -tl On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >It has been years since I built a kernel -- there rarely seems to be a > >need. > > This is my first one. Simply wanted to see if I can build a kernel to > match and fit my hardware, the documentation says that can make things > lighter and faster ? > > >I recommend that you start with clean source, without your patch, and > >try building. It will likely be a learning experience. > Understood and will comply and yes very much a learning process here :-) > > >Only patch after you have perfected building and installing. > Understood again,, > > >I infer from previous posts that you are using Ubuntu. Ubuntu has its > >own packaged kernels and hence its own protocol for building a kernel. > >Try > >(1) starting from one of their kernel source packages, and > >(2) using their official method of building the kernel. > > I have a soft spot for Ubuntu because I cut my teeth on Karmic But am > looking at Cent-OS, Fedora also Backtrack( Kali) and Slackware. Slackware > one needs advanced know-how and knowledge to configure which am yet to > attain, not for newbies I felt. So am not chained to ubuntu am open to > alternatives... just thought knowing the kernel compiling and build process > will help later to tweak things so I have a system that is fast. > > >That should minimize the chance of problems. > Many thank's Hugh for all the pointers :-) > > > -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > *Aruna Hewapathirane* > Consultant/Trainer > Phone : 647-709-9269 > Website: Open Source Solutions > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 11 23:59:12 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:59:12 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >" lighter and faster" that means go with the "GCC screen saver" linux distribution or as its also known by the name gentoo. >:) Let me clarify and explain the need 'why' I want it 'lighter and faster' . I have a ancient D915 motherboard ( Please don't laugh ) with 2GB Ram and on board integrated video with a Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU runni9ng at 3.06GHz. Recently I noticed top showing me a lot more than the usual load average and I thought let me hyperthread, enabled in BIOS but strangely some applications actually took longer to load and some were slow than before ? Also had strange incoming connections from all over, so being paranoid I installed mac-changer in a shell script so at each boot it changes my MAC then the load average did drop but it is still not the 0.02 a pristine install used to show me. While compiling the kernel it took for ever, and if I render something in Blender I can go get groceries from No-Frills drop in at cafe time to say hello to my crack head buddies and have a ciggy then walk home only to see it's still not done. Takes a long time so these are a few reasons I want to comiple and tweak a kernel that matches my hardware and hopefully will have a responsive system again instead of this sluggish beast that is a pain to work on at times :-) Oh, the desktop ( am running gnome classic ) sudeenly totally freezes and the only way out is to CTRL+F1 and drop into a shell then sudo shutdown -r now which I am getting weary of now... I will checkout gentoo thank's ted. -tl > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < > aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> >It has been years since I built a kernel -- there rarely seems to be a >> >need. >> >> This is my first one. Simply wanted to see if I can build a kernel to >> match and fit my hardware, the documentation says that can make things >> lighter and faster ? >> >> >I recommend that you start with clean source, without your patch, and >> >try building. It will likely be a learning experience. >> Understood and will comply and yes very much a learning process here :-) >> >> >Only patch after you have perfected building and installing. >> Understood again,, >> >> >I infer from previous posts that you are using Ubuntu. Ubuntu has its >> >own packaged kernels and hence its own protocol for building a kernel. >> >Try >> >(1) starting from one of their kernel source packages, and >> >(2) using their official method of building the kernel. >> >> I have a soft spot for Ubuntu because I cut my teeth on Karmic But am >> looking at Cent-OS, Fedora also Backtrack( Kali) and Slackware. Slackware >> one needs advanced know-how and knowledge to configure which am yet to >> attain, not for newbies I felt. So am not chained to ubuntu am open to >> alternatives... just thought knowing the kernel compiling and build process >> will help later to tweak things so I have a system that is fast. >> >> >That should minimize the chance of problems. >> Many thank's Hugh for all the pointers :-) >> >> >> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> *Aruna Hewapathirane* >> Consultant/Trainer >> Phone : 647-709-9269 >> Website: Open Source Solutions >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 12 00:48:21 2014 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 19:48:21 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 06:59:12PM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote > >" lighter and faster" that means go with the "GCC screen saver" > linux distribution or as its also known by the name gentoo. >:) > > Let me clarify and explain the need 'why' I want it 'lighter and > faster' . I have a ancient D915 motherboard ( Please don't laugh ) > with 2GB Ram and on board integrated video with a Intel(R) Pentium(R) > 4 CPU runni9ng at 3.06GHz. > > Recently I noticed top showing me a lot more than the usual load > average and I thought let me hyperthread, enabled in BIOS but > strangely some applications actually took longer to load and some > were slow than before ? "Hyperthreading" isn't all it's cracked up to be. In theory it's supposed to help a lot, in practice it can actually slow down a machine, as you've seen. > While compiling the kernel it took for ever, and if I render something in > Blender I can go get groceries from No-Frills drop in at cafe time to say > hello to my crack head buddies and have a ciggy then walk home only to see > it's still not done. Takes a long time so these are a few reasons I want to > comiple and tweak a kernel that matches my hardware and hopefully will have > a responsive system again instead of this sluggish beast that is a pain to > work on at times :-) [...deletia...] > I will checkout gentoo thank's ted. As a gentoo user myself, I would *NOT* recommend gentoo as the cure for your problem... 1) Gentoo is source-based, you will be compiling kernels and everything else you update. If you dislike doing an occasional kernel rebuild, forget gentoo. There's recompiling of various applications and libraries each update (say approx every 2 weeks). 2) A gentoo-optimized machine will be somewhat faster, but your machine has no business running blender. I had an Intel Core 2 with onboard Intel GPU, and it had problems keeping up with NHL Gamecentre Live on the slowest stream. Sorry, you need a newer more powerful machine... period... end of story. > Oh, the desktop ( am running gnome classic ) sudeenly totally freezes > and the only way out is to CTRL+F1 and drop into a shell then sudo > shutdown -r now which I am getting weary of now... 1) gnome (even the classic version) is a resource hog. Can you switch to a "mere" window manager like ICEWM? Doing that should provide a bit of a performance boost. 2) When you get to a shell, can you run top? The PID (process ID) is the first column on the left. At the top of the display you may see a process taking a ridiculous "%CPU" or "%RAM". If it's not X or a system proc, you may be able to kill it, and return to your desktop. Issue a kill -3 If that doesn't kill it, try kill -9 or if that fails, try kill -15 -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 12 01:16:00 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:16:00 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140112004821.GA15127-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: > "Hyperthreading" isn't all it's cracked up to be. In theory it's > supposed to help a lot, in practice it can actually slow down a machine, > as you've seen. I know eh ? I was frankly very taken aback when instead of things speeding up, things started slowing down more :-) > As a gentoo user myself, I would *NOT* recommend gentoo as the cure for > your problem... > 1) Gentoo is source-based, you will be compiling kernels and everything > else you update. If you dislike doing an occasional kernel rebuild, > forget gentoo. There's recompiling of various applications and > libraries each update (say approx every 2 weeks). I have no issues compiling kernels or other sources, just do not want compiling to take half a day :-) > 2) A gentoo-optimized machine will be somewhat faster, but your machine > has no business running blender. I had an Intel Core 2 with onboard > Intel GPU, and it had problems keeping up with NHL Gamecentre Live on > the slowest stream. Sorry, you need a newer more powerful machine... > period... end of story. I can't afford an upgrade right now, so am stuck with what I have. And agreed fully i had no business running blender on this hardware but I am a firm believer that necessity is the mother of invention. Quite by accident I found that setting the resolution percentage to 50% will render the scene *4 times faster*! And you try explaining to a little child why their greeting card is not ready as promised in 3d with all the bells n whistles ? Ever have a female give you dat why don't you drop dead like yesterday look ( the kids elder sister and my very good friend who said don make promises you cant keep Aruna. I made damn sure I kept this one! This is why am here and alive right now :))) Am a sucker for kids, so shoot me :-) worth the hassle and time to see their faces light up with absolute glee... > 1) gnome (even the classic version) is a resource hog. Can you switch > to a "mere" window manager like ICEWM? Doing that should provide a bit > of a performance boost. Yes there is a lot of bloat in any Ubuntu distro I guess because it is designed to work out of the box but we dont need all the drivers, this is why I was trying to compile and roll my own kernel. I will have a look at ICEWM thank's. > kill -15 Am running compiz that may be hogging resources too, will try the PID and kill thank's > > -- > Walter Dnes > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 12 02:28:38 2014 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:28:38 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140112004821.GA15127-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> On Sat, 2014-01-11 at 19:48 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 06:59:12PM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote [ ... ] > > Recently I noticed top showing me a lot more than the usual load > > average and I thought let me hyperthread, enabled in BIOS but > > strangely some applications actually took longer to load and some > > were slow than before ? > > "Hyperthreading" isn't all it's cracked up to be. In theory it's > supposed to help a lot, in practice it can actually slow down a machine, > as you've seen. Or worse. The system here is an MSI motherboard G41M-P26. From the day I got it, under load (large compiles, for instance), it would eventually lock up. ISTR I needed to cycle power to get it down. Resource monitor would show "both" processors pinned at 100%. When I'd hunted the web and found out what Hyperthreading was, and turned it off, the machine got stable, and has been ever since. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 12 02:54:19 2014 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 21:54:19 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20140112025419.GA15586@waltdnes.org> > > 1) Gentoo is source-based, you will be compiling kernels and everything > > else you update. If you dislike doing an occasional kernel rebuild, > > forget gentoo. There's recompiling of various applications and > > libraries each update (say approx every 2 weeks). > > I have no issues compiling kernels or other sources, just do not want > compiling to take half a day :-) I now have a 4-core i5 from Dell. Building a kernel is a snap. But building gcc or glibc or Firefox when they update can take an hour or so. Extrapolate that to your single-core machine... you do not want any source-based distro that requires you to do builds of *ALL* your apps. > Yes there is a lot of bloat in any Ubuntu distro I guess because it > is designed to work out of the box but we dont need all the drivers, > this is why I was trying to compile and roll my own kernel. Maybe you could look at Debian, on which Ubuntu is based. You have to do more grunt work, but if you're building kernels, I think you won't have a problem. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 12 03:54:19 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:54:19 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140112025419.GA15586-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <20140112025419.GA15586@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: > I now have a 4-core i5 from Dell. Building a kernel is a snap. But > building gcc or glibc or Firefox when they update can take an hour or > so. Extrapolate that to your single-core machine... you do not want any > source-based distro that requires you to do builds of *ALL* your apps. I know... I know... what can I do :( can't afford to upgrade have to cover rent and put food on the table and I wish I had your system ( some day huh ? :) > Maybe you could look at Debian, on which Ubuntu is based. You have to > do more grunt work, but if you're building kernels, I think you won't > have a problem. I am trying to find the distro that best uses my hardware resources without overloading my single core cpu so yes will definitely have a look at Debian but I still feel best thing would be to get the mainline stable kernel or pull straight from Linus then build and use a lightweight DE like ICEWM or Awesome ? > -- > Walter Dnes > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 12 04:25:43 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 23:25:43 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140112004821.GA15127-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <52D21947.5060909@sobac.com> Walter Dnes wrote: >2) When you get to a shell, can you run top? [...] >Issue a kill -3 You can do that directly from 'top' with the 'k' keystroke, so you can see the effect of killing the process immediately. --Bob. On 14-01-11 07:48 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 06:59:12PM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote >>> " lighter and faster" that means go with the "GCC screen saver" >> linux distribution or as its also known by the name gentoo. >:) >> >> Let me clarify and explain the need 'why' I want it 'lighter and >> faster' . I have a ancient D915 motherboard ( Please don't laugh ) >> with 2GB Ram and on board integrated video with a Intel(R) Pentium(R) >> 4 CPU runni9ng at 3.06GHz. >> >> Recently I noticed top showing me a lot more than the usual load >> average and I thought let me hyperthread, enabled in BIOS but >> strangely some applications actually took longer to load and some >> were slow than before ? > > "Hyperthreading" isn't all it's cracked up to be. In theory it's > supposed to help a lot, in practice it can actually slow down a machine, > as you've seen. > >> While compiling the kernel it took for ever, and if I render something in >> Blender I can go get groceries from No-Frills drop in at cafe time to say >> hello to my crack head buddies and have a ciggy then walk home only to see >> it's still not done. Takes a long time so these are a few reasons I want to >> comiple and tweak a kernel that matches my hardware and hopefully will have >> a responsive system again instead of this sluggish beast that is a pain to >> work on at times :-) > > [...deletia...] > >> I will checkout gentoo thank's ted. > > As a gentoo user myself, I would *NOT* recommend gentoo as the cure for > your problem... > > 1) Gentoo is source-based, you will be compiling kernels and everything > else you update. If you dislike doing an occasional kernel rebuild, > forget gentoo. There's recompiling of various applications and > libraries each update (say approx every 2 weeks). > > 2) A gentoo-optimized machine will be somewhat faster, but your machine > has no business running blender. I had an Intel Core 2 with onboard > Intel GPU, and it had problems keeping up with NHL Gamecentre Live on > the slowest stream. Sorry, you need a newer more powerful machine... > period... end of story. > >> Oh, the desktop ( am running gnome classic ) sudeenly totally freezes >> and the only way out is to CTRL+F1 and drop into a shell then sudo >> shutdown -r now which I am getting weary of now... > > 1) gnome (even the classic version) is a resource hog. Can you switch > to a "mere" window manager like ICEWM? Doing that should provide a bit > of a performance boost. > > 2) When you get to a shell, can you run top? The PID (process ID) is > the first column on the left. At the top of the display you may see a > process taking a ridiculous "%CPU" or "%RAM". If it's not X or a system > proc, you may be able to kill it, and return to your desktop. Issue a > > kill -3 > > If that doesn't kill it, try > > kill -9 > > or if that fails, try > > kill -15 > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 12 18:34:49 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:34:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <20140112025419.GA15586@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Aruna Hewapathirane | I am trying to find the distro that best uses my hardware resources without | overloading my single core cpu so yes will definitely | have a look at Debian but I still feel best thing would be to get the | mainline stable kernel or pull straight from Linus then build and use a | lightweight DE like ICEWM or Awesome ? It depends on how much mucking about you want to do. I would think that a mainstream distro packaged with a lightweight desktop would be easy and fine. For example: Xfce or LXDE might be good. I assume (with no knowledge) that Slackware might be or could be light-weight. My intuition is that the #1 cause of problems on older hardware is the compositing desktop managers that require 3d acceleration (Gnome 3, Unity, and KDE). The desktop bloat has also probably continued apace. So older, slower evolving applications and environments are probably fine. CentOS 6. is probably old enough to be good on older hardware. I run CentOS 5 on a couple of older/smaller machines. I'm 100% sure that one can configure a modest Debian. But I've not tried. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 12 21:33:25 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:33:25 -0500 Subject: SSDs are scary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140112213325.GA19915@node1.localdomain> On Sat, Jan 04, 2014 at 12:17:01PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Via slashdot and other postings, I got to this. Boy, most SSDs seem > to have unconscionable flaws: > > > > This will certainly affect my use of SSDs. Same thing on but with post from Samsung. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 13 01:05:14 2014 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:05:14 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Supper... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For Tuesday's GTALug meeting... GTALug no longer has an "official" before meeting restaurant recommendation, but there will be a few of us gathering at "Love at First Bite" (96 Gerrard St E, Toronto) http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=43.66022&mlon=-79.37758#map=19/43.66022/-79.37758. All are welcome to join us starting at about 6:00 PM. It will be a short walk from "Love at First Bite" to the meeting location. "Love at First Bite" serves both pizza and Thai food (I don't know how that combination happened). Colin McGregor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 13 03:49:22 2014 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 22:49:22 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Supper... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > "Love at First Bite" serves both pizza and Thai food (I don't know how > that > combination happened). For many years, I worked across the street from LaFB and bought their pizza on a regular basis. The place is really convenient to some large Ryerson departments, so they sold pizza for lunch meetings, and there would be a lineup of students at lunch and after work. They also had a lunch room with spaghetti dishes and salads. Then the place changed hands and the new folks started serving Thai food. I guess since they still had the pizza oven they kept on with that item as well. My favourite combo of this sort was a restaurent up on Markham Road near Eglinton that had been a Scottish restaurent and changed owners to sell Sushi. So you could get blood pudding with your california rolls. By the way, the little place at Gerrard and Mutual (just a little east from Love at First Bite, also on the north side of Gerrard) serves an excellent chicken shawarma. Unfortunately, their sit-down area is really primitive. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 13 19:48:48 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 14:48:48 -0500 Subject: RFC -- application without user configuration? Message-ID: <20140113194847.GA23011@node1.localdomain> Hi, Question: Do you know sizable application that has no user configuration at all, or the configuration is done in source file? When I say "sizable", I mean things like spreadsheet, not 'ls' or 'make'. Most, if not all, apps nowadays have user configuration as their selling point. So, I would be interested in hearing from old guys. Background: I decided against using or extending Python, because it eventually becomes a trap. It's easy at the beginning, but as soon as customization comes into play, I'm stuck with what I can find or do in Python. Some will say Python/Ruby is designed for that. But, considering target audience, business practice, use case, deployment, and support, it's not that simple in real world. So, I wrote my own code, which turns out to be glorified wordexp(3) with if/for/while things. But, in trying to avoid trap dug by someone else, it feels like I'm digging my own trap to fall into. In ERP/accounting system, you practically never make changes once the business flow has been set. You will see people use 20 years old setup, and that's because their business process has not changed for 20 years. So, "user configuration" has different meaning in this part of world. I'm interested in looking at applications which has no user configuration at all, or if there is config file, then it's included as part of source. Whether you edit external config file or source file, editing would be the same. Just that users don't get to edit anything. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 13 20:42:47 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:42:47 -0500 Subject: RFC -- application without user configuration? In-Reply-To: <20140113194847.GA23011-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140113194847.GA23011@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: On 13 January 2014 14:48, William Park wrote: > Question: > Do you know sizable application that has no user configuration at > all, or the configuration is done in source file? When I say > "sizable", I mean things like spreadsheet, not 'ls' or 'make'. > > Most, if not all, apps nowadays have user configuration as their > selling point. So, I would be interested in hearing from old guys. > > Background: > I decided against using or extending Python, because it eventually > becomes a trap. It's easy at the beginning, but as soon as > customization comes into play, I'm stuck with what I can find or do > in Python. Some will say Python/Ruby is designed for that. But, > considering target audience, business practice, use case, > deployment, and support, it's not that simple in real world. > > So, I wrote my own code, which turns out to be glorified wordexp(3) > with if/for/while things. But, in trying to avoid trap dug by > someone else, it feels like I'm digging my own trap to fall into. > > In ERP/accounting system, you practically never make changes once > the business flow has been set. You will see people use 20 years > old setup, and that's because their business process has not changed > for 20 years. So, "user configuration" has different meaning in > this part of world. > > I'm interested in looking at applications which has no user > configuration at all, or if there is config file, then it's included > as part of source. Whether you edit external config file or source > file, editing would be the same. Just that users don't get to edit > anything. > The wm2 window manager: http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/wm2/ . You'll like it: install and go, thou shalt not configure. Just remember that removing configurability means you'd better have defaults so good they appeal to enough people to support your product. That's not easy. Speaking of which ... I liked wm2, but I imagine it appealed to a very narrow audience! -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 13 23:03:26 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 18:03:26 -0500 Subject: RFC -- application without user configuration? In-Reply-To: References: <20140113194847.GA23011@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > On 13 January 2014 14:48, William Park wrote: > >> Question: >> Do you know sizable application that has no user configuration at >> all, or the configuration is done in source file? When I say >> "sizable", I mean things like spreadsheet, not 'ls' or 'make'. >> >> Most, if not all, apps nowadays have user configuration as their >> selling point. So, I would be interested in hearing from old guys. >> >> Background: >> I decided against using or extending Python, because it eventually >> becomes a trap. It's easy at the beginning, but as soon as >> customization comes into play, I'm stuck with what I can find or do >> in Python. Some will say Python/Ruby is designed for that. But, >> considering target audience, business practice, use case, >> deployment, and support, it's not that simple in real world. >> >> So, I wrote my own code, which turns out to be glorified wordexp(3) >> with if/for/while things. But, in trying to avoid trap dug by >> someone else, it feels like I'm digging my own trap to fall into. >> >> In ERP/accounting system, you practically never make changes once >> the business flow has been set. You will see people use 20 years >> old setup, and that's because their business process has not changed >> for 20 years. So, "user configuration" has different meaning in >> this part of world. >> >> I'm interested in looking at applications which has no user >> configuration at all, or if there is config file, then it's included >> as part of source. Whether you edit external config file or source >> file, editing would be the same. Just that users don't get to edit >> anything. >> > > The wm2 window manager: http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/wm2/ . You'll > like it: install and go, thou shalt not configure. Just remember that > removing configurability means you'd better have defaults so good they > appeal to enough people to support your product. That's not easy. > Speaking of which ... I liked wm2, but I imagine it appealed to a very > narrow audience! > > wmx went in the other direction; the file Config.h, in the source tree, is where you can configure the 106 things that can be fiddled with. You then recompile wmx, which pretty much requires recompiling *all* of it (in that pretty much all the files will refer to Config.h). Mind you, it was, in my pre-tiling WMs days, my second favorite choice, and I never modified the built-in configuration at all. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 14 22:32:24 2014 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:32:24 -0500 Subject: Apache reverse proxy issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, Got a quick question, anyone here have set up Apache so that, when I client hit it as HTTP, it pass HTTP and when the client come in on https, it passes https and the back end server? I am able to either force all traffic to HTTP or otherwise but have not been able to pass the traffic nativity. I have a broken application that have some modules that can't speak https, hence the need for the passing the traffic unchanged Regards, William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From northdot9-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 03:46:37 2014 From: northdot9-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (David Thornton) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 22:46:37 -0500 Subject: RFC -- application without user configuration? In-Reply-To: References: <20140113194847.GA23011@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: Bank green screens don't have user configuration. It just is. and is that way for X years ; Tuns of hot keys to make like go smoothly. David Thornton On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > >> On 13 January 2014 14:48, William Park wrote: >> >>> Question: >>> Do you know sizable application that has no user configuration at >>> all, or the configuration is done in source file? When I say >>> "sizable", I mean things like spreadsheet, not 'ls' or 'make'. >>> >>> Most, if not all, apps nowadays have user configuration as their >>> selling point. So, I would be interested in hearing from old guys. >>> >>> Background: >>> I decided against using or extending Python, because it eventually >>> becomes a trap. It's easy at the beginning, but as soon as >>> customization comes into play, I'm stuck with what I can find or do >>> in Python. Some will say Python/Ruby is designed for that. But, >>> considering target audience, business practice, use case, >>> deployment, and support, it's not that simple in real world. >>> >>> So, I wrote my own code, which turns out to be glorified wordexp(3) >>> with if/for/while things. But, in trying to avoid trap dug by >>> someone else, it feels like I'm digging my own trap to fall into. >>> >>> In ERP/accounting system, you practically never make changes once >>> the business flow has been set. You will see people use 20 years >>> old setup, and that's because their business process has not changed >>> for 20 years. So, "user configuration" has different meaning in >>> this part of world. >>> >>> I'm interested in looking at applications which has no user >>> configuration at all, or if there is config file, then it's included >>> as part of source. Whether you edit external config file or source >>> file, editing would be the same. Just that users don't get to edit >>> anything. >>> >> >> The wm2 window manager: http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/wm2/ . You'll >> like it: install and go, thou shalt not configure. Just remember that >> removing configurability means you'd better have defaults so good they >> appeal to enough people to support your product. That's not easy. >> Speaking of which ... I liked wm2, but I imagine it appealed to a very >> narrow audience! >> >> > wmx went in the other direction; > the file Config.h, in the source tree, is where you can configure the 106 > things that can be fiddled with. > > You then recompile wmx, which pretty much requires recompiling *all* of it > (in that pretty much all the files will refer to Config.h). > > Mind you, it was, in my pre-tiling WMs days, my second favorite choice, > and I never modified the built-in configuration at all. > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 16:07:16 2014 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:07:16 -0800 Subject: RFC -- application without user configuration? In-Reply-To: <20140113194847.GA23011-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140113194847.GA23011@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: Sendmail didn't need one to configure the binaries per-se, but the config file itself was best built via M4. On Jan 13, 2014 11:51 AM, "William Park" wrote: > Hi, > > Question: > Do you know sizable application that has no user configuration at > all, or the configuration is done in source file? When I say > "sizable", I mean things like spreadsheet, not 'ls' or 'make'. > > Most, if not all, apps nowadays have user configuration as their > selling point. So, I would be interested in hearing from old guys. > > Background: > I decided against using or extending Python, because it eventually > becomes a trap. It's easy at the beginning, but as soon as > customization comes into play, I'm stuck with what I can find or do > in Python. Some will say Python/Ruby is designed for that. But, > considering target audience, business practice, use case, > deployment, and support, it's not that simple in real world. > > So, I wrote my own code, which turns out to be glorified wordexp(3) > with if/for/while things. But, in trying to avoid trap dug by > someone else, it feels like I'm digging my own trap to fall into. > > In ERP/accounting system, you practically never make changes once > the business flow has been set. You will see people use 20 years > old setup, and that's because their business process has not changed > for 20 years. So, "user configuration" has different meaning in > this part of world. > > I'm interested in looking at applications which has no user > configuration at all, or if there is config file, then it's included > as part of source. Whether you edit external config file or source > file, editing would be the same. Just that users don't get to edit > anything. > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 17:16:40 2014 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:16:40 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Last month Renata Rocha raised some very legit concerns regarding harassment at GTALug meetings. While this isn't a direct tie into that, here is part of the issue : http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html . Basically we as geeks tend to make social mistakes that are ... different from, but in some way just as serious (or arguably more serious) than "mainstream" groups. Bottom line, these are issues we need to be aware of, and from there we can start thinking about how to deal these said issues. Colin McGregor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 17:24:21 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:24:21 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: <52D0288B.5070805-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52D0288B.5070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/10/2014 12:06 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 14-01-10 11:11 AM, John Moniz wrote: >> What about scanning? I suppose I still have to worry about drivers for >> that function? > Brother pretty much rely on x86/x86_64 binary drivers for printing and > scanning. That might be a problem for you if you're not running x86 systems. > > I find it easier to scan to my AIO's SD card (I have an Epson WorkForce > WF-7520 large format inkjet) which appears on the network as a Samba > share. While there are scanner drivers for SANE for this, they're not > very smart: duplex pages, for instance, appear upside down. The PDFs > retrieved from the network share are all right-way-up. > > I've found the duplex scanning and network storage very handy, and > if/when I have to replace the Epson, they'll be high on the list. > > It's at times like this I wish that the Linux Printing Database still > worked. It's got lots of broken links since it joined the L*n*x > F**nd*t**n (name redacted to prevent certain list-members from exploding). > > cheers, > Stewart > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > Neither of the specific models mentioned in reply (the Brother MFC-9125CN & HP CP1518ni) could be found in the Linux Printing Database, so never would have known about them without a recommendation. Thanks. Re: HP MFP M276nw Is anyone using one of these? While out looking for the printers recommended above, I ran into the HP MFP 276nw, which has an RJ45 plug as well as being wireless, on sale for $250. A very good price and just the size I'm looking for. Looking at the HP Linux site, it needs the hplip driver. This model is listed for Linux as "Support level: Full" and "Recommended: Yes". http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/models/color_laserjet/hp_laserjet_200_colormfp_m276nw.html For anyone who has experience with HP multi-function devices and the hplip driver, am I safe in assuming this will work? If I'm going to buy it, I'd like to do it while it's still on sale. Many thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From wwitteman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 18:01:17 2014 From: wwitteman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Witteman) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:01:17 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It has been a long time since I was at a GTALug meeting, but I definitely contributed negatively to the experience in two ways that I suspect are still going on: 1. I saw some pretty disruptive heckling of the presenter, and I said nothing. I was annoyed at the heckler, and the presentation was badly derailed by the heckling, but I still didn't feel like I had the social standing in the group to say anything. Unchecked heckling of a presenter creates an atmosphere where social faux pas are tolerated, and one person's social faux pas can easily be harassment to another. 2. Whispering during the presentation - I was whispering quietly to a friend during the presentation, and while I made an effort to be quiet, I was unable to render myself either silent or invisible. It is a rude practice, and I am embarrassed that I did it. There are ample ways available now for maintaining back-channel communications during a talk, but if you are going to use them you need to be unobtrusive. There are studies that show that laptop use by some people in a lecture hall lower retention scores for the whole room. Laptop use at a GTALug meeting is probably normal and acceptable, even encouraged, but it should be balanced with professional courtesy and social grace. In the intervening years I have come to the opinion that waiting for someone with more social standing to call out rude or harassing behaviour is a mistake. Everyone needs to politely defend everyone else's right to a courteous environment. On 15 January 2014 12:16, Colin McGregor wrote: > Last month Renata Rocha raised some very legit concerns regarding harassment > at GTALug meetings. While this isn't a direct tie into that, here is part of > the issue : http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html . > > Basically we as geeks tend to make social mistakes that are ... different > from, but in some way just as serious (or arguably more serious) than > "mainstream" groups. Bottom line, these are issues we need to be aware of, > and from there we can start thinking about how to deal these said issues. > > > Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 18:07:19 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:07:19 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> William Witteman wrote: > 1. I saw some pretty disruptive heckling of the presenter, and I said > nothing. I stopped going because of all the heckling trashing the presentation. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 18:41:15 2014 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:41:15 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D6CE57.2030603-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <52D6D64B.5050100@alteeve.ca> On 15/01/14 01:07 PM, James Knott wrote: > William Witteman wrote: >> 1. I saw some pretty disruptive heckling of the presenter, and I said >> nothing. > > I stopped going because of all the heckling trashing the presentation. As a multiple-time presenter, the heckling/interruptions were, far and away, the most annoying and rude thing. I've presented numerous other places and largely stopped presenting at TLUG because of this. I had hoped to try presenting again this month, but work got in the way. I still hope to reschedule, and I do hope this is no longer an issue. The problem seems to be a deep seated desire by some to show how intelligent they are by interrupting the presenter to point out perceived flaws. It makes for a very uninviting environment, male or female. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 18:52:16 2014 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:52:16 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D6D64B.5050100-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <52D6D64B.5050100@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: <52D6D8E0.9050603@mylesbraithwaite.com> Digimer wrote: > As a multiple-time presenter, the heckling/interruptions were, far and > away, the most annoying and rude thing. I've presented numerous other > places and largely stopped presenting at TLUG because of this. I had > hoped to try presenting again this month, but work got in the way. I > still hope to reschedule, and I do hope this is no longer an issue. > > The problem seems to be a deep seated desire by some to show how > intelligent they are by interrupting the presenter to point out > perceived flaws. It makes for a very uninviting environment, male or > female. The best thing to do if you don't want to be heckled at your talk is to just layout the ground rules of asking questions before the meeting . But I do agree (as a multiple-time presenter myself and sometimes heckler) that when the heckling issue gets to out of hand the organizers of GTALUG should be the ones to put a stop to it not the speaker. -- Myles Braithwaite | http://mylesb.ca/e -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 19:07:35 2014 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 14:07:35 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D6D8E0.9050603-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <52D6D64B.5050100@alteeve.ca> <52D6D8E0.9050603@mylesbraithwaite.com> Message-ID: <52D6DC77.9040502@alteeve.ca> On 15/01/14 01:52 PM, Myles Braithwaite wrote: > Digimer wrote: >> As a multiple-time presenter, the heckling/interruptions were, far and >> away, the most annoying and rude thing. I've presented numerous other >> places and largely stopped presenting at TLUG because of this. I had >> hoped to try presenting again this month, but work got in the way. I >> still hope to reschedule, and I do hope this is no longer an issue. >> >> The problem seems to be a deep seated desire by some to show how >> intelligent they are by interrupting the presenter to point out >> perceived flaws. It makes for a very uninviting environment, male or >> female. > > The best thing to do if you don't want to be heckled at your talk is to > just layout the ground rules of asking questions before the meeting > . > > But I do agree (as a multiple-time presenter myself and sometimes > heckler) that when the heckling issue gets to out of hand the organizers > of GTALUG should be the ones to put a stop to it not the speaker. When presenting to adults, one should not have to "layout the ground rules" of politeness. This is something most people are taught in kindergarten. I've presented at LUGs smaller than TLUG, I've presented before many potential clients (where you expect arrows to be flung), I've presented at large organizations (LCE '11, for one)... Never outside of TLUG have I had problems with people interrupting and heckling. This said, 90%+ of the TLUG members are awesome and mature. It's time though for the other 10%- to grow up if TLUG as a group wants to stay relevant. The Undiplomatic Digimer -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 19:12:44 2014 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 14:12:44 -0500 Subject: All-in-one Colour Laser In-Reply-To: References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52D0288B.5070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D6DDAC.4060107@ve3syb.ca> On 14-01-15 12:24 PM, John Moniz wrote: > Neither of the specific models mentioned in reply (the Brother MFC-9125CN & > HP CP1518ni) could be found in the Linux Printing Database, so never would > have known about them without a recommendation. Thanks. You can't rely on the LPD as much as you used to. If the printers are relatively new, they may not have info on them. On the other hand, when someone took over the LPD and it moved host(?) some of the information that used to be in there was lost. Check the brother website to see if they offer support for the printer. See if you can add the printer in CUPS. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 19:13:43 2014 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 14:13:43 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D6CE57.2030603-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 01:07:19PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > 1. I saw some pretty disruptive heckling of the presenter, and I said > > nothing. > > I stopped going because of all the heckling trashing the presentation. Ditto. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 21:25:00 2014 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:25:00 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D6DC77.9040502-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <52D6D64B.5050100@alteeve.ca> <52D6D8E0.9050603@mylesbraithwaite.com> <52D6DC77.9040502@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: > When presenting to adults, one should not have to "layout the ground rules" > of politeness. This is something most people are taught in kindergarten. > > I've presented at LUGs smaller than TLUG, I've presented before many > potential clients (where you expect arrows to be flung), I've presented at > large organizations (LCE '11, for one)... Never outside of TLUG have I had > problems with people interrupting and heckling. > > This said, 90%+ of the TLUG members are awesome and mature. It's time though > for the other 10%- to grow up if TLUG as a group wants to stay relevant. Can I just upvote this? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william-HPpJ5Ac2/Hg at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 15 22:10:56 2014 From: william-HPpJ5Ac2/Hg at public.gmane.org (William Porquet) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:10:56 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <52D6D64B.5050100@alteeve.ca> <52D6D8E0.9050603@mylesbraithwaite.com> <52D6DC77.9040502@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm glad we renewed this discussion (after avoiding the inevitable trolling). I've been to a few TLUG presentations over the past couple of years, and I gave two last year (the first on wifi hacking, and the second on hacking the Voynich Manuscript with Linux and FOSS tools). I agree that the heckling can be too much sometimes. I personally didn't mind it myself, but I think my subject matter was so obscure in my second talk that no one had a lot of material to throw back at me. Plus I started the talk with the famous XKCD "Voynich" cartoon, so they didn't even have that on me. ;-) This thread makes me wonder, however, how my experience giving a talk would have gone if I presented as female? Reminds me of the scene in The Little Prince about the Turkish astronomer giving two talks about discovering a star, one in traditional Turkish garb and the other in a business suit. In spite of having valid data, he was only believed by the established astronomer community whilst wearing the business suit. Maybe we need a presentation on gender sensitivity and geek social fallacies within the IT community? Just my $0.02 worth. Cheers, William On 15 January 2014 16:25, Renata Rocha wrote: >> When presenting to adults, one should not have to "layout the ground rules" >> of politeness. This is something most people are taught in kindergarten. >> >> I've presented at LUGs smaller than TLUG, I've presented before many >> potential clients (where you expect arrows to be flung), I've presented at >> large organizations (LCE '11, for one)... Never outside of TLUG have I had >> problems with people interrupting and heckling. >> >> This said, 90%+ of the TLUG members are awesome and mature. It's time though >> for the other 10%- to grow up if TLUG as a group wants to stay relevant. > > Can I just upvote this? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- William Porquet, M.A. ? mailto:william-HPpJ5Ac2/Hg at public.gmane.org ? http://www.2038.org/ ?Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.? - Lucius Ann?us Seneca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 00:53:59 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:53:59 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> Message-ID: <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 02:13:43PM -0500, Peter King wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 01:07:19PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > I stopped going because of all the heckling trashing the > > presentation. > > Ditto. Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because they have nothing to learn. Heckling and harassment are side issues. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 01:39:26 2014 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 20:39:26 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116005359.GA22882-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 02:13:43PM -0500, Peter King wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 01:07:19PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >> > I stopped going because of all the heckling trashing the >> > presentation. >> >> Ditto. > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and > counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because > they have nothing to learn. People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. > Heckling and harassment are side issues. On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be dismissed out of hand. Best, -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 http://psema4.com/pubkey.txt http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 01:44:26 2014 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 20:44:26 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <4496_1389833702_s0G0t1Xp007084_20140116005359.GA22882-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <4496_1389833702_s0G0t1Xp007084_20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <20140116014426.GA16793@amber> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 07:53:59PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 01:07:19PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > > I stopped going because of all the heckling trashing the > > > presentation. > > > > Ditto. > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and > counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because > they have nothing to learn. Heckling and harassment are side issues. I disagree. I want to learn something, but I can't because a few people are constantly interrupting for no good reason. And as a social group, heckling and harassment are central to what makes something a cohesive social group, or the opposite. Personally, I find it off-putting, and unlike the sort of behaviour I've encountered in other computer groups. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 02:15:41 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:15:41 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:39:26PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park wrote: > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and > > counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they > > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because > > they have nothing to learn. > > People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the > community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. > > > Heckling and harassment are side issues. > > On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer > participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then > meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be dismissed > out of hand. What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no need to come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, they are acting in their own self interest. For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come in garter belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, too, only because I normally have to pay to see that. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 02:23:40 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:23:40 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116021541.GA3156-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52D742AC.60209@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > I'd bet women would be more than happy to come in garter belt and > sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, too, only > because I normally have to pay to see that. That is exactly the kind of language and behaviour that drives people away. Both from meetings and the mailing list. William, that's not acceptable. Don't do it any more. - --Bob. On 14-01-15 09:15 PM, William Park wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:39:26PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park >> wrote: >>> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to >>> me and counter productive as group. People come to the meeting >>> because they want to learning something, and people don't come >>> to the meeting because they have nothing to learn. >> >> People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the >> community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. >> >>> Heckling and harassment are side issues. >> >> On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer >> participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then >> meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be >> dismissed out of hand. > > What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no need > to come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, > tons of info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. > That is, they are acting in their own self interest. > > For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples > of their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come > in garter belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would > attend, too, only because I normally have to pay to see that. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLXQqYACgkQuRKJsNLM5eo8tgCgwaITY/jGXv5j5FIedeDlSULV fNgAn2xdm2pB4PQlJjcPRnP9Fc+CsBvP =HDuq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 02:31:36 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:31:36 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116005359.GA22882-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52D74488.3090905@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and > counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because > they have nothing to learn. Heckling and harassment are side issues. > - I find it very annoying when the heckling interrupts the presentation, sometimes to the point where the presenter is sidetracked to the point that the presentation is a waste of my time. I have to come in from Mississauga and I want to hear the presentation, not someone's interrupting. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 02:35:43 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:35:43 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116021541.GA3156-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52D7457F.1000000@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no need to > come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of > info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, they > are acting in their own self interest. What I mean is that while there have been many topics that would have interested me, I stopped going to TLUG because of the heckling. It is that heckling that has caused me to skip many potentially interesting presentations. I am not going to waste my time getting to and from the meeting, as well as the meeting time, to listen to a presentation that's been shredded by heckling. If you don't see that as a problem then it makes me suspect you may be one of the hecklers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 02:37:39 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:37:39 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116005359.GA22882-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> On 14-01-15 07:53 PM, William Park wrote: > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and > counter productive as group. Actually, no; it's very productive to constructively criticize something you want to see improve. In the link that Colin posted, it's written up under ?Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am?: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html ? read it, it's good. So, while I know the TLUG directors have tried their best, I have to say that the new room at Ryerson is definitely sub-standard. In the days of pretending to be associated with UofT, at least the rooms were big enough that the annoying back-channel chatter didn't prevent you from hearing everything. > People come to the meeting because they > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because > they have nothing to learn. While TLUG has a roster of genuine subject matter experts who are a joy to listen to, there are a number of folks at meetings who - maybe - just come to give their 2? on whatever topic is being presented. I understand that it's sometimes hard to contain one's natural exuberance about sharing knowledge, but it's better to be kind than correct, so we should strive to remember that a presenter is just giving their experience of their way of running their system. It may be vastly different from the way we'd do it, but if it works, good! Stewart (who may have occasionally used ?cat file | ??, but is yet to run out of processes to do so) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 02:38:54 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:38:54 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D742AC.60209-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D742AC.60209@sobac.com> Message-ID: <52D7463E.2050302@rogers.com> Bob Jonkman wrote: > William, that's not acceptable. Don't do it any more. Why do I suspect he may be one of the hecklers? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 02:45:15 2014 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:45:15 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <25441_1389838626_s0G2H67q027042_20140116021541.GA3156-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <25441_1389838626_s0G2H67q027042_20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <20140116024515.GA17115@amber> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 09:15:41PM -0500, William Park wrote: > For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of > their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come in garter > belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, too, only > because I normally have to pay to see that. That is simply offensive, both in language and in sentiment. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 02:55:19 2014 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:55:19 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116021541.GA3156-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:15 PM, William Park wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:39:26PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park > wrote: > > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and > > > counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they > > > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting > because > > > they have nothing to learn. > > > > People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the > > community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. > > > > > Heckling and harassment are side issues. > > > > On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer > > participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then > > meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be dismissed > > out of hand. > > What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no need to > come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of > info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, they > are acting in their own self interest. > > For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of > their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come in garter > belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, too, only > because I normally have to pay to see that. > William, Sigh, the above sort of comment is part of the problem, not part of the solution... Colin. > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 02:55:52 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:55:52 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116021541.GA3156-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52D74A38.4090001@gmail.com> William - no, it's not acceptable to say that. You should apologize, and consider leaving the list. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 03:12:56 2014 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:12:56 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> On 14-01-15 09:55 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:15 PM, William Park > wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:39:26PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park > > wrote: > > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to > me and > > > counter productive as group. People come to the meeting > because they > > > want to learning something, and people don't come to the > meeting because > > > they have nothing to learn. > > > > People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the > > community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. > > > > > Heckling and harassment are side issues. > > > > On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer > > participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then > > meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be > dismissed > > out of hand. > > What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no need to > come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of > info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, they > are acting in their own self interest. > > For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of > their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come in > garter > belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, too, only > because I normally have to pay to see that. > > > William, > > Sigh, the above sort of comment is part of the problem, not part of > the solution... > > > Colin. I must admit William's comment took me by surprise and shocked me. But in a free society where free speech is lauded and exported beyond our borders I must disagree with the condemnations. Are we to censor ourselves so only anodine speech is acceptable? Free speech involves the freedom to be offended. If William wishes to represent himself as someone who objectifies women as sexual objects so be it. Although he has my condolences. Poor taste and a lack of judgement is no excuse for censorship. Randy Do not ask who I am and do not ask me to remain the same: leave it to our bureaucrats and our police to see that our papers are in order. At least spare us their morality when we write. --Michel Foucault > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 03:23:47 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:23:47 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D74E38.6040900-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D750C3.5090804@rogers.com> Randy Jonasz wrote: > I must admit William's comment took me by surprise and shocked me. > But in a free society where free speech is lauded and exported beyond > our borders I must disagree with the condemnations. Are we to censor > ourselves so only anodine speech is acceptable? Free speech involves > the freedom to be offended. If William wishes to represent himself as > someone who objectifies women as sexual objects so be it. Although he > has my condolences. Poor taste and a lack of judgement is no excuse > for censorship. It's more than that. He maintains the heckling is not the problem, even though some here have clearly said it was. His other comment shows the sort of attitude that causes problems for women. While people are certainly free to say what they want, with that comes responsibility. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From wwitteman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 03:38:23 2014 From: wwitteman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Witteman) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:38:23 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D74E38.6040900-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 15 January 2014 22:12, Randy Jonasz wrote: > I must admit William's comment took me by surprise and shocked me. But in a > free society where free speech is lauded and exported beyond our borders I > must disagree with the condemnations. Are we to censor ourselves so only > anodine speech is acceptable? Free speech involves the freedom to be > offended. If William wishes to represent himself as someone who objectifies > women as sexual objects so be it. Although he has my condolences. Poor > taste and a lack of judgement is no excuse for censorship. I think you have confused two things here - freedom of speech, and freedom from consequences. I don't think that anyone is attacking William's right to write what he wrote, what they are saying is that it is against the social norms and codes of civility to write such things, and they would prefer that he exercise his right to speak freely in another forum. In a mailing list, we can easily filter or ignore someone whose speech offends us. In a meeting it is disruptive. I would advocate much more tolerance on the list than I would at a meeting, but if we don't want this list which many of us have participated in for years to resemble the worst Youtube comment thread, then we must advise what types and characteristics of language and tone are acceptable. We would not censor him, we would ask him to stop, to reflect, to apologize. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 03:40:13 2014 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:40:13 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D74E38.6040900-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D7549D.8040205@dinamis.com> On 01/15/2014 10:12 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > On 14-01-15 09:55 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:15 PM, William Park > > wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:39:26PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park >> > wrote: >> > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange >> to me and >> > > counter productive as group. People come to the meeting >> because they >> > > want to learning something, and people don't come to the >> meeting because >> > > they have nothing to learn. >> > >> > People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the >> > community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. >> > >> > > Heckling and harassment are side issues. >> > >> > On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer >> > participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then >> > meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be >> dismissed >> > out of hand. >> >> What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no >> need to >> come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of >> info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, they >> are acting in their own self interest. >> >> For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of >> their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come in >> garter >> belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, too, >> only >> because I normally have to pay to see that. >> >> >> William, >> >> Sigh, the above sort of comment is part of the problem, not part of >> the solution... >> >> >> Colin. > > I must admit William's comment took me by surprise and shocked me. > But in a free society where free speech is lauded and exported beyond > our borders I must disagree with the condemnations. Are we to censor > ourselves so only anodine speech is acceptable? Free speech involves > the freedom to be offended. If William wishes to represent himself as > someone who objectifies women as sexual objects so be it. Although he > has my condolences. Poor taste and a lack of judgement is no excuse > for censorship. Randy, please refer to GSF#1 in the article Colin posted. While anyone is free to make a fool of themselves, others are free to hold them to account and condemn their behaviour. Comments like the ones made by William only serve to add insult to the original injury. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay 647-778-8696 Dinamis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 03:56:12 2014 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:56:12 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D7585C.3060004@gmail.com> On 14-01-15 10:38 PM, William Witteman wrote: > On 15 January 2014 22:12, Randy Jonasz wrote: > >> I must admit William's comment took me by surprise and shocked me. But in a >> free society where free speech is lauded and exported beyond our borders I >> must disagree with the condemnations. Are we to censor ourselves so only >> anodine speech is acceptable? Free speech involves the freedom to be >> offended. If William wishes to represent himself as someone who objectifies >> women as sexual objects so be it. Although he has my condolences. Poor >> taste and a lack of judgement is no excuse for censorship. > I think you have confused two things here - freedom of speech, and > freedom from consequences. I don't think that anyone is attacking > William's right to write what he wrote, what they are saying is that > it is against the social norms and codes of civility to write such > things, and they would prefer that he exercise his right to speak > freely in another forum. > > In a mailing list, we can easily filter or ignore someone whose speech > offends us. In a meeting it is disruptive. I would advocate much > more tolerance on the list than I would at a meeting, but if we don't > want this list which many of us have participated in for years to > resemble the worst Youtube comment thread, then we must advise what > types and characteristics of language and tone are acceptable. > > We would not censor him, we would ask him to stop, to reflect, to apologize. I think William's comments will only serve to ostracise him from the list. And that is up to each individual to decide. No problem there. But to ban him from the list? I disagree with that even if he doesn't think he did anything wrong. And yes heckling at a presentation such as TLUG is unacceptable. Keep your commentary to after the presentation. Randy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 03:57:11 2014 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:57:11 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116021541.GA3156-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52D75897.1080805@alteeve.ca> On 15/01/14 09:15 PM, William Park wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:39:26PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park wrote: >>> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and >>> counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they >>> want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because >>> they have nothing to learn. >> >> People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the >> community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. >> >>> Heckling and harassment are side issues. >> >> On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer >> participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then >> meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be dismissed >> out of hand. > > What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no need to > come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of > info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, they > are acting in their own self interest. > > For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of > their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come in garter > belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, too, only > because I normally have to pay to see that. Comments like this, and the reaction (or lack there-of) of the TLUG community, will determine the future of TLUG. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 03:58:49 2014 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:58:49 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D7549D.8040205-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D7549D.8040205@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <52D758F9.10902@gmail.com> On 14-01-15 10:40 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On 01/15/2014 10:12 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: >> On 14-01-15 09:55 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:15 PM, William Park >> > wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:39:26PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: >>> > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park >>> > wrote: >>> > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange >>> to me and >>> > > counter productive as group. People come to the meeting >>> because they >>> > > want to learning something, and people don't come to the >>> meeting because >>> > > they have nothing to learn. >>> > >>> > People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the >>> > community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. >>> > >>> > > Heckling and harassment are side issues. >>> > >>> > On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer >>> > participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then >>> > meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be >>> dismissed >>> > out of hand. >>> >>> What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no >>> need to >>> come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of >>> info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, >>> they >>> are acting in their own self interest. >>> >>> For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of >>> their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come >>> in garter >>> belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, >>> too, only >>> because I normally have to pay to see that. >>> >>> >>> William, >>> >>> Sigh, the above sort of comment is part of the problem, not part of >>> the solution... >>> >>> >>> Colin. >> >> I must admit William's comment took me by surprise and shocked me. >> But in a free society where free speech is lauded and exported beyond >> our borders I must disagree with the condemnations. Are we to censor >> ourselves so only anodine speech is acceptable? Free speech involves >> the freedom to be offended. If William wishes to represent himself >> as someone who objectifies women as sexual objects so be it. >> Although he has my condolences. Poor taste and a lack of judgement >> is no excuse for censorship. > > Randy, please refer to GSF#1 in the article Colin posted. While anyone > is free to make a fool of themselves, others are free to hold them to > account and condemn their behaviour. Comments like the ones made by > William only serve to add insult to the original injury. Injury is a fact of life and on a list we can choose to ignore any thread we wish. Expressing distaste for someone's behaviour is unproblematic but banning from the list is. > -- > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > > 647-778-8696 > > Dinamis > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 04:40:56 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 23:40:56 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D758F9.10902-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D7549D.8040205@dinamis.com> <52D758F9.10902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D762D8.4080304@gmail.com> On 14-01-15 10:58 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > > Expressing distaste for someone's behaviour is > unproblematic but banning from the list is. Mailing lists die from weak moderation. It's also not a free speech issue at all; this list exists at the will of the list owner. None of us would have any recourse should our posts be removed or our membership banned. ISTR at least one person being banned from this list over the last few years (someone who was trying to advertise computers commercially, I recall, and did so repeatedly). cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 05:02:09 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 00:02:09 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D758F9.10902-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D7549D.8040205@dinamis.com> <52D758F9.10902@gmail.com> Message-ID: How well you communicate can make or break your professional image. It directly influences how others view your work and performance ? As well as your prospects for career advancement and mobility ? Unfortunately, being diplomatic, tactful and credible doesn?t always come naturally to people ( it sure did not to me, it was a skill acquired over a period of many long and hard years and still being worked upon. ) . Even when it does, such communication can easily be derailed by emotions and conflicts. As it has for me right now... am being pulled in many directions right now :( When Renetta first brought up this issue, though I have never met her or know anything at all about her I was appalled. "I" have cousin sisters and I thought what if someone did this to one of "my" sisters ? I do not think I would be diplomatic nor tactful but promptly resort to physical assault and battery and hell with the consequences. But that does not solve the problem nor do I have any real desire to see Don Jail from the interior. ( Then again I do not prescribe to acts of violence of any kind..) When a professor of all people used expletives I saw red, but I also wanted to understand why would someone at that level use such language? After much thought , I realized no matter what the credentials we are all human, with all the weaknesses and failings that come with being human. Still, I took matters into my own hands... I was angry and not thinking straight and i did something I wish I had not now. Too late damage already done. ( The expletives stopped though.. ) I believe in giving others the benefit of the doubt.. so I thought maybe the person who made that outrageous generalization isn?t really insensitive. Maybe this person has had a painful experience that made him overreact ? I tried to see things from both perspectives. I am disappointed, and sad that I have to write this email to this particular group. I am very new to the list but I have come to feel safe and comfortable among you all in this short period. And I honestly believe it is our diversity that is our strength. The diversity that brings strength will also at times manifest in forms not acceptable to society or our current environment. If we as a group can work within an anti-oppressive framework that promotes social justice and equity. And we strive to reduce the impact of racism, sexism, heterosexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, ageism, classism, and all other forms of any such phobia. If we as a group are committed to the greater and *Meaningful Involvement*of People in all aspects of our work, and we strive to be transparent and accountable I still feel we can make this work and work well as a group. About Williams comment I only have this to say, if one is a recently elected board member, that is a position in which and one needs to demonstrate non-judgmental, non-offensive and responsible behavior. And it is not my business to say anything other than I feel the right thing to do would be to offer an apology and move forward together as a group and put all this down to a lesson learnt ? In Solidarity - Aruna ( Yes I am fully aware speaking your mind can get one killed.. ) On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 10:58 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > On 14-01-15 10:40 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > On 01/15/2014 10:12 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > > On 14-01-15 09:55 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:15 PM, William Park wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:39:26PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park >> wrote: >> > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me >> and >> > > counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they >> > > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting >> because >> > > they have nothing to learn. >> > >> > People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the >> > community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. >> > >> > > Heckling and harassment are side issues. >> > >> > On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer >> > participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then >> > meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be dismissed >> > out of hand. >> >> What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no need to >> come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of >> info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, they >> are acting in their own self interest. >> >> For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of >> their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come in garter >> belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, too, only >> because I normally have to pay to see that. >> > > William, > > Sigh, the above sort of comment is part of the problem, not part of the > solution... > > > Colin. > > > I must admit William's comment took me by surprise and shocked me. But in > a free society where free speech is lauded and exported beyond our borders > I must disagree with the condemnations. Are we to censor ourselves so only > anodine speech is acceptable? Free speech involves the freedom to be > offended. If William wishes to represent himself as someone who > objectifies women as sexual objects so be it. Although he has my > condolences. Poor taste and a lack of judgement is no excuse for > censorship. > > > Randy, please refer to GSF#1 in the article Colin posted. While anyone is > free to make a fool of themselves, others are free to hold them to account > and condemn their behaviour. Comments like the ones made by William only > serve to add insult to the original injury. > > Injury is a fact of life and on a list we can choose to ignore any thread > we wish. Expressing distaste for someone's behaviour is unproblematic but > banning from the list is. > > > > -- > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > 647-778-8696 > > Dinamis > > > > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 05:02:33 2014 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 00:02:33 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D762D8.4080304-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D7549D.8040205@dinamis.com> <52D758F9.10902@gmail.com> <52D762D8.4080304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6c66dacac06a4abf8c3fd31b3d3da415.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Mailing lists die from weak moderation. It's also not a free speech > issue at all; this list exists at the will of the list owner. None of us > would have any recourse should our posts be removed or our membership > banned. ISTR at least one person being banned from this list over the > last few years (someone who was trying to advertise computers > commercially, I recall, and did so repeatedly). > There was someone else banned as well. His posts were demeaning and excessively abrasive. He was warned, he persisted, and then he was banned. The people who 'own' the space get to make the rules. There are certain things you can do in a church, other things in a hockey stadium, other things in an office. So the members of TLUG get to make the rules on what's acceptable and what's not. I dealt with this issue when I taught at Ryerson. On occasion, something that was said that was offensive to others in the workplace, and defended on the basis of 'free speech' (usually combined with the phrase 'political correctness'.) My position was that (a) you can *think* whatever you want. We are not the thought police. (b) You cannot *say* whatever you want in that particular workspace. (The same reasoning applied to the posting of material that others regarded as offensive.) Outside the workplace, the rules may be different, maybe there is somewhere your spoken comments will be welcomed. The tone was set by the senior members of the administration: when they laid down the law, the problems disappeared. (That's a hint...) Regarding interjections during a presentation: I'd vote against them. Some of us are experienced enough and have enough of a thick skin to deal with it. But some presenters are relatively inexperienced and having to deal with interruptions is intimidating and discouraging. I think we want to have an atmosphere where you can present without intimidation or challenges during the presentation. In the Q&A, sure, you can challenge. Just be polite. My 2 cents worth. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 05:14:18 2014 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 00:14:18 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140116001418.7420a6d5a472889997c69779@eol.ca> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:16:40 -0500 Colin McGregor wrote: > Last month Renata Rocha raised some very legit concerns regarding > harassment at GTALug meetings. While this isn't a direct tie into that, > here is part of the issue : > http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html . > > Basically we as geeks tend to make social mistakes that are ... different > from, but in some way just as serious (or arguably more serious) than > "mainstream" groups. Bottom line, these are issues we need to be aware of, > and from there we can start thinking about how to deal these said issues. > > > Colin McGregor Colin, As you may be aware, this is a HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux... http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 05:40:36 2014 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 00:40:36 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D74E38.6040900-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D770D4.5080909@ss.org> On 01/15/2014 10:12 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > On 14-01-15 09:55 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:15 PM, William Park > > wrote: >> For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of >> their software, I'd bet women would be more than happy to come in >> garter >> belt and sucking on their favourite dildos. I would attend, too, only >> because I normally have to pay to see that. >> >> >> William, >> >> Sigh, the above sort of comment is part of the problem, not part of >> the solution... >> >> >> Colin. > > I must admit William's comment took me by surprise and shocked me. But > in a free society where free speech is lauded and exported beyond our > borders I must disagree with the condemnations. Are we to censor > ourselves so only anodine speech is acceptable? Free speech involves > the freedom to be offended. If William wishes to represent himself as > someone who objectifies women as sexual objects so be it. Although he > has my condolences. Poor taste and a lack of judgement is no excuse for > censorship. Well, this an interesting example case. William is Free to say what he wishes. Likewise others are Free to say that they feel his behaviour is not acceptable. Free speech is simply letting both side stand in the light and allow those with brains in their heads to consider and make their own opinions. If I didn't support free speech, as an operator of the list I could simply ban the parties involved and remove the messages from our archive. That is Censorship. It is now and always will be William's choice in what he says. It is also his choice to consider how what he has said will reflect on his character and influence how one may choose, or choose not to interact with him in the future. This cuts in both directions for all parties on this list and is not a zero sum game. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 06:11:17 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 01:11:17 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D75897.1080805-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D75897.1080805@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Digimer wrote: > On 15/01/14 09:15 PM, William Park wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 08:39:26PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM, William Park >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and >>>> counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they >>>> want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because >>>> they have nothing to learn. >>> >>> >>> People come for other reasons as well. They also come for the >>> community - I hate not making it out more often than I do. >>> >>>> Heckling and harassment are side issues. >>> >>> On the contrary, people are talking about why they no longer >>> participate in person. If community is the heart of GTALUG then >>> meetings should be the lifeblood. Such topics should not be dismissed >>> out of hand. >> >> >> What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no need to >> come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of >> info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, they >> are acting in their own self interest. >> >> For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free samples of >> their software, I'd bet women would *** OMITTED; not going to repeat that!!! Utterly, utterly inappropriate. Not going to touch that point with any sort of implement. That's the sort of sentiment that justifies people staying away in droves, whatever the gender, > Comments like this, and the reaction (or lack there-of) of the TLUG > community, will determine the future of TLUG. I am willing to take people at their public word, as said in this thread, that they prefer not to come to meetings anymore because they have been unhappy with what they consider heckling. Others may disagree with what to call it ("I think that *genuine* heckling means something else"), but that is pretty irrelevant if the consequence is that people are staying away. A rose, by any other name, is still a rose. And this bit of the thread amounts to pouring additional inflammables onto the fire. Sigh. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"And -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 07:48:13 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 02:48:13 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D770D4.5080909-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D770D4.5080909@ss.org> Message-ID: <52D78EBD.4060706@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Scott wrote: > William is Free to say what he wishes. [...] > If I didn't support free speech, as an operator of the list I > could simply ban the parties involved and remove the messages from > our archive. That is Censorship. Yes, moderating a list treads the fine line of censorship. We're all free to make our own choices (list operators included), but if that kind of "free speech" is the norm on the list then I choose to remove myself. If strict behaviour is enforced by banning someone then only that one person is inconvenienced, allowing the majority of the list members to enjoy the benefits of having a list. But if one person's behaviour or language drives everyone else away then nobody benefits. I'm not a list moderator, so I was out of line in telling William not to repeat such language. For that I apologize to Scott. - --Bob. On 14-01-16 12:40 AM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > On 01/15/2014 10:12 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: >> On 14-01-15 09:55 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:15 PM, William Park >>> > wrote: >>> For example, if SAP were to present at TLUG and give free >>> samples of their software, I'd bet women would be more than >>> happy to come in garter belt and sucking on their favourite >>> dildos. I would attend, too, only because I normally have to >>> pay to see that. >>> >>> >>> William, >>> >>> Sigh, the above sort of comment is part of the problem, not >>> part of the solution... >>> >>> >>> Colin. >> >> I must admit William's comment took me by surprise and shocked >> me. But in a free society where free speech is lauded and >> exported beyond our borders I must disagree with the >> condemnations. Are we to censor ourselves so only anodine speech >> is acceptable? Free speech involves the freedom to be offended. >> If William wishes to represent himself as someone who objectifies >> women as sexual objects so be it. Although he has my >> condolences. Poor taste and a lack of judgement is no excuse >> for censorship. > > Well, this an interesting example case. > > William is Free to say what he wishes. > > Likewise others are Free to say that they feel his behaviour is > not acceptable. > > Free speech is simply letting both side stand in the light and > allow those with brains in their heads to consider and make their > own opinions. > > If I didn't support free speech, as an operator of the list I > could simply ban the parties involved and remove the messages from > our archive. That is Censorship. > > It is now and always will be William's choice in what he says. It > is also his choice to consider how what he has said will reflect on > his character and influence how one may choose, or choose not to > interact with him in the future. This cuts in both directions for > all parties on this list and is not a zero sum game. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLXjrwACgkQuRKJsNLM5erkuACfa8+p13oukaZBkmAezZ29eMcI gKsAnRV6sbueEWI29iSXZTK9lOWbUv6G =Jg6v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 08:06:31 2014 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 03:06:31 -0500 Subject: What is acceptable in TLUG? In-Reply-To: <52D78EBD.4060706-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D770D4.5080909@ss.org> <52D78EBD.4060706@sobac.com> Message-ID: <52D79307.9050607@alteeve.ca> On 16/01/14 02:48 AM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Scott wrote: > >> William is Free to say what he wishes. > [...] >> If I didn't support free speech, as an operator of the list I >> could simply ban the parties involved and remove the messages from >> our archive. That is Censorship. > > Yes, moderating a list treads the fine line of censorship. We're all > free to make our own choices (list operators included), but if that > kind of "free speech" is the norm on the list then I choose to remove > myself. > > If strict behaviour is enforced by banning someone then only that one > person is inconvenienced, allowing the majority of the list members to > enjoy the benefits of having a list. But if one person's behaviour or > language drives everyone else away then nobody benefits. > > I'm not a list moderator, so I was out of line in telling William not > to repeat such language. For that I apologize to Scott. > > - --Bob. As others have said, this is not a free speech issue. It's not even a censorship issue. Those concepts pertain to government issues. If someone wants to spew terrible things like this in a public square and people argued that he should be arrested, then that would be a free speech issue. If the government says that people can't publish ideas like this, that is censorship. Even then, our society has placed limits ("yell fire in a theatre", publishing hate speech, etc). What this is, is a decision on how the administrators of this group wishes to shape this group. If the administration of TLUG decides that William's comments are fair game, that is their choice. So I would like to ask for a formal statement from TLUG on whether comments like William's are considered acceptable or not. Once this policy is stated, members can decide if they wish to support that policy by remaining members. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 09:02:55 2014 From: ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org (Bill Henderson) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:02:55 +0000 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116021541.GA3156-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52D7A03F.7060604@torfree.net> On 01/16/2014 02:15 AM, William Park wrote: > What I mean is, they no longer participate because they see no need to > come to the meeting (e.g. Linux distros are easy to install, tons of > info on Web, etc.), and not because there is heckling. That is, they > are acting in their own self interest. For example, if SAP were to > present at TLUG and give free samples of their software, I'd bet women > would be more than happy to come in garter belt and sucking on their > favourite dildos. I would attend, too, only because I normally have to > pay to see that. Folks come because of a sense of community, to get help on a particuar problem or to render assistance to others who may have problems. In Antibes this discussion would be totally redundant. The "heckling" or unwarranted attention is not an issue here. We have a woman as president of Linux Azur and V?ro's been re-elected for almost as long as I can remember. -- Bill Henderson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 11:19:24 2014 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 06:19:24 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D745F3.2090304-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 14-01-15 07:53 PM, William Park wrote: > > > > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and > > counter productive as group. > > Actually, no; it's very productive to constructively criticize something > you want to see improve. In the link that Colin posted, it's written up > under ?Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am?: > http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html > ? read it, it's good. > Sorry, my bad, I first heard about the Geek Social Fallacy article via Stewart Russell on Monday, and I didn't credit him. Bottom line though, there are points in that article that should be driven home to a GTALug (and several other geek groups) audience (sad but true). I often attend the GTALug board meetings, even though I am not a board member. It is my hope that at the next board meeting GTALug will adopt a formal code of conduct and then be prepared to enforce the code... So, while I know the TLUG directors have tried their best, I have to say > that the new room at Ryerson is definitely sub-standard. In the days of > pretending to be associated with UofT, at least the rooms were big > enough that the annoying back-channel chatter didn't prevent you from > hearing everything. > > > People come to the meeting because they > > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because > > they have nothing to learn. > > While TLUG has a roster of genuine subject matter experts who are a joy > to listen to, there are a number of folks at meetings who - maybe - just > come to give their 2? on whatever topic is being presented. I understand > that it's sometimes hard to contain one's natural exuberance about > sharing knowledge, but it's better to be kind than correct, so we should > strive to remember that a presenter is just giving their experience of > their way of running their system. It may be vastly different from the > way we'd do it, but if it works, good! > > Stewart > > (who may have occasionally used ?cat file | ??, but is yet to run out of > processes to do so) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 12:12:19 2014 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:12:19 -0500 Subject: What is acceptable in TLUG? In-Reply-To: <52D79307.9050607-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D770D4.5080909@ss.org> <52D78EBD.4060706@sobac.com> <52D79307.9050607@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:06 AM, Digimer wrote: > On 16/01/14 02:48 AM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Scott wrote: >> >> William is Free to say what he wishes. >>> >> [...] >> >>> If I didn't support free speech, as an operator of the list I >>> could simply ban the parties involved and remove the messages from >>> our archive. That is Censorship. >>> >> >> Yes, moderating a list treads the fine line of censorship. We're all >> free to make our own choices (list operators included), but if that >> kind of "free speech" is the norm on the list then I choose to remove >> myself. >> >> If strict behaviour is enforced by banning someone then only that one >> person is inconvenienced, allowing the majority of the list members to >> enjoy the benefits of having a list. But if one person's behaviour or >> language drives everyone else away then nobody benefits. >> >> I'm not a list moderator, so I was out of line in telling William not >> to repeat such language. For that I apologize to Scott. >> >> - --Bob. >> > > As others have said, this is not a free speech issue. It's not even a > censorship issue. > > Those concepts pertain to government issues. If someone wants to spew > terrible things like this in a public square and people argued that he > should be arrested, then that would be a free speech issue. If the > government says that people can't publish ideas like this, that is > censorship. Even then, our society has placed limits ("yell fire in a > theatre", publishing hate speech, etc). > > What this is, is a decision on how the administrators of this group wishes > to shape this group. If the administration of TLUG decides that William's > comments are fair game, that is their choice. > > So I would like to ask for a formal statement from TLUG on whether > comments like William's are considered acceptable or not. > > Once this policy is stated, members can decide if they wish to support > that policy by remaining members. My 2 cents worth.... Free speech is extended by the charter of rights of Canada, it does not have to be extended here. This would be considered sexual harassment in any workplace in Canada. I don't see any reason why we should not expect (demand) our members converse politely. If I want to find offensive material to read there is a whole internet full of it, I see no reason to have it come into my inbox. The position I would be in favour of is: conversation should be polite, and what would be considered acceptable in a workplace. Dave Cramer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 12:52:41 2014 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:52:41 +0100 Subject: What is acceptable in TLUG? In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D770D4.5080909@ss.org> <52D78EBD.4060706@sobac.com> <52D79307.9050607@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: > The position I would be in favour of is: conversation should be polite, and > what would be considered acceptable in a workplace. A code of conduct has been proposed to the board, discussions about the details were going on over the holidays. There's a lot being discussed on it. Zero tolerance vs. reconciliation and education, scope and applicability (informal events? christmas parties?), how to handle "violations", whether to lean towards TLUG as a professional group or as a social club, accessibility as discrimination, precedent in the FOSS community, outsiders who can provide policy input, revision, review etc. etc. The elected board members will be voting as representatives of the TLUG membership. The outcome will affect how complaints will be identified and managed. I don't want to over-speak my authority (I have none on this), but I don't want it to appear as though past complaints have been ignored. A lot of work has been done in this area. The timing of this most recent issue is difficult, but is a test of the draft policy and highlights the need for it. I'm only piping up because I don't want to see these threads derail the process of creating a solid code of conduct. Again, I have no authority and don't speak for the board. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 16:01:52 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 11:01:52 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: This thread is absurd to me. Count me as one of those put off enough by what I see here to consider TLUG utterly useless. I attended one meeting years ago, and felt so unwelcome that I haven't been back since. Heckling was an issue, but I chose not to come back because the group felt very unwelcoming. It felt like I had walked into a clique of people who had known each other for years and had no interest in letting newcomers into the group. I tried to follow along to the post-meeting social time (hoping that I'd have better luck socializing there), but everyone walked ahead of me and occasionally looked back to glare at me until I gave up and left. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had an experience like this. I stayed on the list because of the useful and interesting discussion, but now I'm reconsidering that decision. I see a group of people condoning sexual harassment, and prioritizing the harasser's "right" to harass above others' right to not be harassed. This is absurd to me. Free speech does not mean you have the right to say whatever you want without consequences. You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you can't sexually harass people. Both actions can and often do have serious consequences, and for good reason. Moderation is an important part of any internet community. I agree that the banhammer should be used sparingly, but at a minimum the moderator's role is to set the tone and ensure that the space remains useful for its intended purpose, and in TLUG's case this extends to in-person meetups. Many people in this thread have shared that they feel the group has become problematic and is not useful to them. I think this is a real problem that those in charge of TLUG need to pay attention to. If you want to get together with your friends and heckle each other and make sexist jokes, you are free to do so whenever and wherever you like. That is not the purpose of TLUG, and it's the responsibility of those in charge to ensure it remains true to its purpose. Matt On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > >> On 14-01-15 07:53 PM, William Park wrote: >> > >> > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and >> > counter productive as group. >> >> Actually, no; it's very productive to constructively criticize something >> you want to see improve. In the link that Colin posted, it's written up >> under ?Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am?: >> http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html >> ? read it, it's good. >> > > Sorry, my bad, I first heard about the Geek Social Fallacy article via > Stewart Russell on Monday, and I didn't credit him. Bottom line though, > there are points in that article that should be driven home to a GTALug > (and several other geek groups) audience (sad but true). > > I often attend the GTALug board meetings, even though I am not a board > member. It is my hope that at the next board meeting GTALug will adopt a > formal code of conduct and then be prepared to enforce the code... > > So, while I know the TLUG directors have tried their best, I have to say >> that the new room at Ryerson is definitely sub-standard. In the days of >> pretending to be associated with UofT, at least the rooms were big >> enough that the annoying back-channel chatter didn't prevent you from >> hearing everything. >> >> > People come to the meeting because they >> > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because >> > they have nothing to learn. >> >> While TLUG has a roster of genuine subject matter experts who are a joy >> to listen to, there are a number of folks at meetings who - maybe - just >> come to give their 2? on whatever topic is being presented. I understand >> that it's sometimes hard to contain one's natural exuberance about >> sharing knowledge, but it's better to be kind than correct, so we should >> strive to remember that a presenter is just giving their experience of >> their way of running their system. It may be vastly different from the >> way we'd do it, but if it works, good! >> >> Stewart >> >> (who may have occasionally used ?cat file | ??, but is yet to run out of >> processes to do so) >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 16:07:20 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 11:07:20 -0500 Subject: What is acceptable in TLUG? In-Reply-To: <52D79307.9050607-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D770D4.5080909@ss.org> <52D78EBD.4060706@sobac.com> <52D79307.9050607@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:06 AM, Digimer wrote: > As others have said, this is not a free speech issue. It's not even a > censorship issue. > > Those concepts pertain to government issues. If someone wants to spew > terrible things like this in a public square and people argued that he > should be arrested, then that would be a free speech issue. If the > government says that people can't publish ideas like this, that is > censorship. Even then, our society has placed limits ("yell fire in a > theatre", publishing hate speech, etc). > > What this is, is a decision on how the administrators of this group wishes > to shape this group. If the administration of TLUG decides that William's > comments are fair game, that is their choice. > > So I would like to ask for a formal statement from TLUG on whether > comments like William's are considered acceptable or not. > > Once this policy is stated, members can decide if they wish to support > that policy by remaining members. > Thank you for starting this thread. I agree with Dave, William's post was absolutely sexual harassment and has no place here. If the moderators consider that kind of thing acceptable, I will be forced to leave TLUG. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 16:07:52 2014 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 11:07:52 -0500 Subject: What is acceptable in TLUG? In-Reply-To: <52D79307.9050607-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D770D4.5080909@ss.org> <52D78EBD.4060706@sobac.com> <52D79307.9050607@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2014 3:10 AM, "Digimer" wrote: > > On 16/01/14 02:48 AM, Bob Jonkman wrote: >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Scott wrote: >> >>> William is Free to say what he wishes. >> >> [...] >>> >>> If I didn't support free speech, as an operator of the list I >>> could simply ban the parties involved and remove the messages from >>> our archive. That is Censorship. >> >> >> Yes, moderating a list treads the fine line of censorship. We're all >> free to make our own choices (list operators included), but if that >> kind of "free speech" is the norm on the list then I choose to remove >> myself. >> >> If strict behaviour is enforced by banning someone then only that one >> person is inconvenienced, allowing the majority of the list members to >> enjoy the benefits of having a list. But if one person's behaviour or >> language drives everyone else away then nobody benefits. >> >> I'm not a list moderator, so I was out of line in telling William not >> to repeat such language. For that I apologize to Scott. >> >> - --Bob. > > > As others have said, this is not a free speech issue. It's not even a censorship issue. > > Those concepts pertain to government issues. If someone wants to spew terrible things like this in a public square and people argued that he should be arrested, then that would be a free speech issue. If the government says that people can't publish ideas like this, that is censorship. Even then, our society has placed limits ("yell fire in a theatre", publishing hate speech, etc). > > What this is, is a decision on how the administrators of this group wishes to shape this group. If the administration of TLUG decides that William's comments are fair game, that is their choice. > > So I would like to ask for a formal statement from TLUG on whether comments like William's are considered acceptable or not. > > Once this policy is stated, members can decide if they wish to support that policy by remaining members. > > -- > Digimer There is another issue that is important here. As usual, because it is hateful speech about women, lots of people cry about censorship. If William had made similarly hateful remarks about African, gay, or disabled people, a lot fewer people would be worrying about free speech. Free speech does not outweigh the right of women to participate in a group without fear of being subjected to hateful and disgusting comments like William's. The advice from some people on here about how women just need to grin and bear it is equally moronic. As long as people keep standing up for the "rights" of misogynist pigs like William, they will continue to believe that their behaviour is okay. It is not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 16:09:14 2014 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 11:09:14 -0500 Subject: What is acceptable in TLUG? In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D770D4.5080909@ss.org> <52D78EBD.4060706@sobac.com> <52D79307.9050607@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2014 11:08 AM, "Matt Seburn" wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:06 AM, Digimer wrote: >> >> As others have said, this is not a free speech issue. It's not even a censorship issue. >> >> Those concepts pertain to government issues. If someone wants to spew terrible things like this in a public square and people argued that he should be arrested, then that would be a free speech issue. If the government says that people can't publish ideas like this, that is censorship. Even then, our society has placed limits ("yell fire in a theatre", publishing hate speech, etc). >> >> What this is, is a decision on how the administrators of this group wishes to shape this group. If the administration of TLUG decides that William's comments are fair game, that is their choice. >> >> So I would like to ask for a formal statement from TLUG on whether comments like William's are considered acceptable or not. >> >> Once this policy is stated, members can decide if they wish to support that policy by remaining members. > > > > Thank you for starting this thread. I agree with Dave, William's post was absolutely sexual harassment and has no place here. If the moderators consider that kind of thing acceptable, I will be forced to leave TLUG. Totally agree. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 16:35:49 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 11:35:49 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a suspicion the recent william incident and the Z issues (tlug list subscriber with name starting with Z), are perhaps "mel gibson" moments. It happens. Maybe they will apologize, work well for Mel (or did it). The mail list , i think overall, hasn't been to bad over the years at all, but what alarms me is the quotes on the meet ups. Sounds like if someone recorded the meetings, it may spawn a new reality TV series! Personally, sounds like a TLUG meeting, to me, would be more entertaining then Pawn Stars, Homes on Homes, or even Man Tracker :) (And by entertaining I mean in a more WTF! did they just say/do way). Oddly enough, if the meetings were recorded (not uncommon in presentations), one may find the misbehaviours miraculously start behaving. But in the emails of late, even sounds like the social meet ups after are very problematic. I don't think people should get to hung up on free-speech, its is of huge importance, but its secondary to democracy. The people in TLUG who share common thoughts on this stuff can do what ever they want as a majority ( note however some groups I am a member of require 2/3 votes to make some changes to things, as if the majority is 51/49, you some times don't want to make decisions on that tight a vote). Even the board serves the member base, and long term have no power, as they are elected. In the end the majority hold all the power, so I hope TLUG doesn't get caught up in a lot of necessary politics and red tape, and complicate something that is in the end very very simple. I am a member of a home owners association that owns land amongst the group where we live, some times things get heated, but in the end, there will be a suggestion in the meeting, owners are present, and the board, there is a show of hands (or secret ballot i.e. if election) on issues, and the will of the majority gets things moving along just nice in the end. A strong minority can always go off and do their own thing if they don't respect the governance of the majority, so no concern has to be given to breaking a few eggs. -tl On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Matt Seburn wrote: > This thread is absurd to me. Count me as one of those put off enough by > what I see here to consider TLUG utterly useless. > > I attended one meeting years ago, and felt so unwelcome that I haven't > been back since. Heckling was an issue, but I chose not to come back > because the group felt very unwelcoming. It felt like I had walked into a > clique of people who had known each other for years and had no interest in > letting newcomers into the group. I tried to follow along to the > post-meeting social time (hoping that I'd have better luck socializing > there), but everyone walked ahead of me and occasionally looked back to > glare at me until I gave up and left. I'm sure I'm not the only one who > has had an experience like this. > > I stayed on the list because of the useful and interesting discussion, but > now I'm reconsidering that decision. I see a group of people condoning > sexual harassment, and prioritizing the harasser's "right" to harass above > others' right to not be harassed. This is absurd to me. Free speech does > not mean you have the right to say whatever you want without consequences. > You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you can't sexually harass > people. Both actions can and often do have serious consequences, and for > good reason. > > Moderation is an important part of any internet community. I agree that > the banhammer should be used sparingly, but at a minimum the moderator's > role is to set the tone and ensure that the space remains useful for its > intended purpose, and in TLUG's case this extends to in-person meetups. > Many people in this thread have shared that they feel the group has become > problematic and is not useful to them. I think this is a real problem that > those in charge of TLUG need to pay attention to. > > If you want to get together with your friends and heckle each other and > make sexist jokes, you are free to do so whenever and wherever you like. > That is not the purpose of TLUG, and it's the responsibility of those in > charge to ensure it remains true to its purpose. > > Matt > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >> >>> On 14-01-15 07:53 PM, William Park wrote: >>> > >>> > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and >>> > counter productive as group. >>> >>> Actually, no; it's very productive to constructively criticize something >>> you want to see improve. In the link that Colin posted, it's written up >>> under ?Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am?: >>> http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html >>> ? read it, it's good. >>> >> >> Sorry, my bad, I first heard about the Geek Social Fallacy article via >> Stewart Russell on Monday, and I didn't credit him. Bottom line though, >> there are points in that article that should be driven home to a GTALug >> (and several other geek groups) audience (sad but true). >> >> I often attend the GTALug board meetings, even though I am not a board >> member. It is my hope that at the next board meeting GTALug will adopt a >> formal code of conduct and then be prepared to enforce the code... >> >> So, while I know the TLUG directors have tried their best, I have to say >>> that the new room at Ryerson is definitely sub-standard. In the days of >>> pretending to be associated with UofT, at least the rooms were big >>> enough that the annoying back-channel chatter didn't prevent you from >>> hearing everything. >>> >>> > People come to the meeting because they >>> > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting >>> because >>> > they have nothing to learn. >>> >>> While TLUG has a roster of genuine subject matter experts who are a joy >>> to listen to, there are a number of folks at meetings who - maybe - just >>> come to give their 2? on whatever topic is being presented. I understand >>> that it's sometimes hard to contain one's natural exuberance about >>> sharing knowledge, but it's better to be kind than correct, so we should >>> strive to remember that a presenter is just giving their experience of >>> their way of running their system. It may be vastly different from the >>> way we'd do it, but if it works, good! >>> >>> Stewart >>> >>> (who may have occasionally used ?cat file | ??, but is yet to run out of >>> processes to do so) >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 16:41:32 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 11:41:32 -0500 Subject: Tcl's 25th Birthday Message-ID: 2014 marks 25 years of Tcl... http://blog.tkdocs.com/2014/01/happy-25th-tcl.html Here's a pithy description... "For anyone under 40 years old, you can think of Tcl like Ruby or Python, if those languages didn't have objects, if absolutely everything in them was treated as a string, and if every syntax rule added to the language resulted in its creator being tortured for one year." -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 16:55:30 2014 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:55:30 -0200 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't felt that people on this list condoned William's misbehavior, quite the opposite. And as I haven't attended any meeting yet, I will as soon as I have time. All my relationship with TLUG is using this list, and I found it very polite on the majority of the time. There's the occasional trolling here and there, but that's something expected on Internet. No matter if TLUG is a democracy or not, IMHO William should apologize, be banned, or both. As someone mentioned, freedom of speech is not freedom from responsibility nor freedom from consequence. If his view on women is in complete disagreement with almost everyone in this list, he is out of place and should go somewhere else. I think the channels on 4chan would be a better place to him. Even with this issues, I don't recommend anybody leaving the list. The good people are not to leave. The bad people are. If we as individuals have the right to not befriend nor talk to people we don't like, why should we as a group be denied from the same right? Lets just dump the trolls! Mauro http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. 2014/1/16 Matt Seburn > This thread is absurd to me. Count me as one of those put off enough by > what I see here to consider TLUG utterly useless. > > I attended one meeting years ago, and felt so unwelcome that I haven't > been back since. Heckling was an issue, but I chose not to come back > because the group felt very unwelcoming. It felt like I had walked into a > clique of people who had known each other for years and had no interest in > letting newcomers into the group. I tried to follow along to the > post-meeting social time (hoping that I'd have better luck socializing > there), but everyone walked ahead of me and occasionally looked back to > glare at me until I gave up and left. I'm sure I'm not the only one who > has had an experience like this. > > I stayed on the list because of the useful and interesting discussion, but > now I'm reconsidering that decision. I see a group of people condoning > sexual harassment, and prioritizing the harasser's "right" to harass above > others' right to not be harassed. This is absurd to me. Free speech does > not mean you have the right to say whatever you want without consequences. > You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you can't sexually harass > people. Both actions can and often do have serious consequences, and for > good reason. > > Moderation is an important part of any internet community. I agree that > the banhammer should be used sparingly, but at a minimum the moderator's > role is to set the tone and ensure that the space remains useful for its > intended purpose, and in TLUG's case this extends to in-person meetups. > Many people in this thread have shared that they feel the group has become > problematic and is not useful to them. I think this is a real problem that > those in charge of TLUG need to pay attention to. > > If you want to get together with your friends and heckle each other and > make sexist jokes, you are free to do so whenever and wherever you like. > That is not the purpose of TLUG, and it's the responsibility of those in > charge to ensure it remains true to its purpose. > > Matt > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >> >>> On 14-01-15 07:53 PM, William Park wrote: >>> > >>> > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and >>> > counter productive as group. >>> >>> Actually, no; it's very productive to constructively criticize something >>> you want to see improve. In the link that Colin posted, it's written up >>> under ?Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am?: >>> http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html >>> ? read it, it's good. >>> >> >> Sorry, my bad, I first heard about the Geek Social Fallacy article via >> Stewart Russell on Monday, and I didn't credit him. Bottom line though, >> there are points in that article that should be driven home to a GTALug >> (and several other geek groups) audience (sad but true). >> >> I often attend the GTALug board meetings, even though I am not a board >> member. It is my hope that at the next board meeting GTALug will adopt a >> formal code of conduct and then be prepared to enforce the code... >> >> So, while I know the TLUG directors have tried their best, I have to say >>> that the new room at Ryerson is definitely sub-standard. In the days of >>> pretending to be associated with UofT, at least the rooms were big >>> enough that the annoying back-channel chatter didn't prevent you from >>> hearing everything. >>> >>> > People come to the meeting because they >>> > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting >>> because >>> > they have nothing to learn. >>> >>> While TLUG has a roster of genuine subject matter experts who are a joy >>> to listen to, there are a number of folks at meetings who - maybe - just >>> come to give their 2? on whatever topic is being presented. I understand >>> that it's sometimes hard to contain one's natural exuberance about >>> sharing knowledge, but it's better to be kind than correct, so we should >>> strive to remember that a presenter is just giving their experience of >>> their way of running their system. It may be vastly different from the >>> way we'd do it, but if it works, good! >>> >>> Stewart >>> >>> (who may have occasionally used ?cat file | ??, but is yet to run out of >>> processes to do so) >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 17:09:58 2014 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 12:09:58 -0500 Subject: What is acceptable in TLUG? In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <20140116021541.GA3156@node1.localdomain> <52D74E38.6040900@gmail.com> <52D770D4.5080909@ss.org> <52D78EBD.4060706@sobac.com> <52D79307.9050607@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: I totally agree with everything that has been said, and I shall add - if we don't start taking some action, by demanding public apology, banning from the list, etc, these unacceptable attitudes are going to get more common as there's no punishment. Censorship would be if we forbade him of saying what he thought. He already expressed his feelings, now he has to face the consequences of expressing them. You're free to think, you're free to say, and you have to bee accountable for what you do. My 2 cents. Renata Rocha http://renata.org On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > > On Jan 16, 2014 11:08 AM, "Matt Seburn" wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:06 AM, Digimer wrote: >>> >>> As others have said, this is not a free speech issue. It's not even a >>> censorship issue. >>> >>> Those concepts pertain to government issues. If someone wants to spew >>> terrible things like this in a public square and people argued that he >>> should be arrested, then that would be a free speech issue. If the >>> government says that people can't publish ideas like this, that is >>> censorship. Even then, our society has placed limits ("yell fire in a >>> theatre", publishing hate speech, etc). >>> >>> What this is, is a decision on how the administrators of this group >>> wishes to shape this group. If the administration of TLUG decides that >>> William's comments are fair game, that is their choice. >>> >>> So I would like to ask for a formal statement from TLUG on whether >>> comments like William's are considered acceptable or not. >>> >>> Once this policy is stated, members can decide if they wish to support >>> that policy by remaining members. >> >> >> >> Thank you for starting this thread. I agree with Dave, William's post was >> absolutely sexual harassment and has no place here. If the moderators >> consider that kind of thing acceptable, I will be forced to leave TLUG. > > Totally agree. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 17:22:21 2014 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 12:22:21 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Matt Seburn wrote: > I stayed on the list because of the useful and interesting discussion, but > now I'm reconsidering that decision. I see a group of people condoning > sexual harassment, and prioritizing the harasser's "right" to harass above > others' right to not be harassed. This is absurd to me. Free speech does > not mean you have the right to say whatever you want without consequences. > You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you can't sexually harass > people. Both actions can and often do have serious consequences, and for > good reason. Can I just sign my name here? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 17:17:39 2014 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 12:17:39 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: Renata Rocha http://renata.org > Even with this issues, I don't recommend anybody leaving the list. The good > people are not to leave. The bad people are. If we as individuals have the > right to not befriend nor talk to people we don't like, why should we as a > group be denied from the same right? Lets just dump the trolls! I don't know what you consider "bad people", but I am *this close* to leaving, as I haven't seen anything that resembles an apology from the offenders, which, in my opinion, is just a silent endorsement of this kind of behaviour. I'm not the troll here. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 17:33:11 2014 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:33:11 -0200 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: No Renata, you are not the troll... I failed to state clearly that the bad people and the trolls are the ones disregarding the rules of respect, that ones that speak whatever they think without considering if they are offensive. William and one Russian guy that i forgot the name was some examples. You are the one courageous enough to bring forth a issue that most people knew but let out of discussion. If more people acted like you did, less people would be inclined to leave because of the trolls. We would identify those trolls before they had done enough damage to our list and made it unappealing... Mauro http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. 2014/1/16 Renata Rocha > Renata Rocha > http://renata.org > > > Even with this issues, I don't recommend anybody leaving the list. The > good > > people are not to leave. The bad people are. If we as individuals have > the > > right to not befriend nor talk to people we don't like, why should we as > a > > group be denied from the same right? Lets just dump the trolls! > > I don't know what you consider "bad people", but I am *this close* to > leaving, as I haven't seen anything that resembles an apology from the > offenders, which, in my opinion, is just a silent endorsement of this > kind of behaviour. > > I'm not the troll here. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 17:37:18 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 12:37:18 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D74488.3090905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D74488.3090905@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 01/15/2014 09:31 PM, James Knott wrote: > William Park wrote: >> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and >> counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they >> want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because >> they have nothing to learn. Heckling and harassment are side issues. >> - > I find it very annoying when the heckling interrupts the presentation, > sometimes to the point where the presenter is sidetracked to the point > that the presentation is a waste of my time. I have to come in from > Mississauga and I want to hear the presentation, not someone's interrupting. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > Speaking up at times of disruptions really works. Some speakers have the skill to handle such disruptions (heckling is not really the right word, I don't think), but most do not and should not have to possess that skill. At the old NewTLUG meetings (which I attended frequently right from the very first one to the time they ended) some of the same disturbers from the TLUG meetings were also there for a time, causing many, many interruptions. It became a waste of a trip and time spent at the meeting. Someone spoke up (name is not important) and basically told the clique, who liked to sit together as a group, that we were here to listen to THAT presenter and if they wished to provide their own input to the subject, we would likely attend their presentation as well. The interruptions stopped, not only for the rest of the current presentation, but also for most future presentations. NewTLUG meetings became a pleasure to attend. An unwanted side effect was that the hecklers stopped coming to the meetings. They were welcome there, but better they leave than me - that was my thought anyway. They were clearly there for the wrong reasons. Speaking up works very well! John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 17:38:29 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 12:38:29 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Mauro Souza wrote: > I don't felt that people on this list condoned William's misbehavior, > quite the opposite. > The group as a whole did not condone his behaviour (most condemned it) but a few certainly did. Even with this issues, I don't recommend anybody leaving the list. The good > people are not to leave. The bad people are. > Agreed, however allowing this kind of behaviour to continue unchecked will necessarily lead to good people leaving. If the administrators decide they don't care to keep this space free from bullying and harassment, there's nothing I can do to change it and I'm not going to waste my time trying. Matt > Mauro > http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 > Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. > > > 2014/1/16 Matt Seburn > >> This thread is absurd to me. Count me as one of those put off enough by >> what I see here to consider TLUG utterly useless. >> >> I attended one meeting years ago, and felt so unwelcome that I haven't >> been back since. Heckling was an issue, but I chose not to come back >> because the group felt very unwelcoming. It felt like I had walked into a >> clique of people who had known each other for years and had no interest in >> letting newcomers into the group. I tried to follow along to the >> post-meeting social time (hoping that I'd have better luck socializing >> there), but everyone walked ahead of me and occasionally looked back to >> glare at me until I gave up and left. I'm sure I'm not the only one who >> has had an experience like this. >> >> I stayed on the list because of the useful and interesting discussion, >> but now I'm reconsidering that decision. I see a group of people condoning >> sexual harassment, and prioritizing the harasser's "right" to harass above >> others' right to not be harassed. This is absurd to me. Free speech does >> not mean you have the right to say whatever you want without consequences. >> You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you can't sexually harass >> people. Both actions can and often do have serious consequences, and for >> good reason. >> >> Moderation is an important part of any internet community. I agree that >> the banhammer should be used sparingly, but at a minimum the moderator's >> role is to set the tone and ensure that the space remains useful for its >> intended purpose, and in TLUG's case this extends to in-person meetups. >> Many people in this thread have shared that they feel the group has become >> problematic and is not useful to them. I think this is a real problem that >> those in charge of TLUG need to pay attention to. >> >> If you want to get together with your friends and heckle each other and >> make sexist jokes, you are free to do so whenever and wherever you like. >> That is not the purpose of TLUG, and it's the responsibility of those in >> charge to ensure it remains true to its purpose. >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >>> >>>> On 14-01-15 07:53 PM, William Park wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and >>>> > counter productive as group. >>>> >>>> Actually, no; it's very productive to constructively criticize something >>>> you want to see improve. In the link that Colin posted, it's written up >>>> under ?Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am?: >>>> http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html >>>> ? read it, it's good. >>>> >>> >>> Sorry, my bad, I first heard about the Geek Social Fallacy article via >>> Stewart Russell on Monday, and I didn't credit him. Bottom line though, >>> there are points in that article that should be driven home to a GTALug >>> (and several other geek groups) audience (sad but true). >>> >>> I often attend the GTALug board meetings, even though I am not a board >>> member. It is my hope that at the next board meeting GTALug will adopt a >>> formal code of conduct and then be prepared to enforce the code... >>> >>> So, while I know the TLUG directors have tried their best, I have to say >>>> that the new room at Ryerson is definitely sub-standard. In the days of >>>> pretending to be associated with UofT, at least the rooms were big >>>> enough that the annoying back-channel chatter didn't prevent you from >>>> hearing everything. >>>> >>>> > People come to the meeting because they >>>> > want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting >>>> because >>>> > they have nothing to learn. >>>> >>>> While TLUG has a roster of genuine subject matter experts who are a joy >>>> to listen to, there are a number of folks at meetings who - maybe - just >>>> come to give their 2? on whatever topic is being presented. I understand >>>> that it's sometimes hard to contain one's natural exuberance about >>>> sharing knowledge, but it's better to be kind than correct, so we should >>>> strive to remember that a presenter is just giving their experience of >>>> their way of running their system. It may be vastly different from the >>>> way we'd do it, but if it works, good! >>>> >>>> Stewart >>>> >>>> (who may have occasionally used ?cat file | ??, but is yet to run out of >>>> processes to do so) >>>> -- >>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 17:53:07 2014 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 12:53:07 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D74488.3090905@rogers.com> Message-ID: I was going to suggest that we implement a timer with a silly picture, so every time a heckler interrupts the presenter, they (the presenter) can activate the timer in the screen, counting for how long the presentation has been interrupted due to heckling. It's a way to deal with it with a little of humour and will also make hecklers uncomfortable. Suggested silly pictures could be any current internet meme. (come on, we can write that in 5 languages in 5 minutes...) Renata Rocha http://renata.org On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:37 PM, John Moniz wrote: > On 01/15/2014 09:31 PM, James Knott wrote: >> >> William Park wrote: >>> >>> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and >>> counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they >>> want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting because >>> they have nothing to learn. Heckling and harassment are side issues. >>> - >> >> I find it very annoying when the heckling interrupts the presentation, >> sometimes to the point where the presenter is sidetracked to the point >> that the presentation is a waste of my time. I have to come in from >> Mississauga and I want to hear the presentation, not someone's >> interrupting. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > Speaking up at times of disruptions really works. Some speakers have the > skill to handle such disruptions (heckling is not really the right word, I > don't think), but most do not and should not have to possess that skill. > > At the old NewTLUG meetings (which I attended frequently right from the very > first one to the time they ended) some of the same disturbers from the TLUG > meetings were also there for a time, causing many, many interruptions. It > became a waste of a trip and time spent at the meeting. Someone spoke up > (name is not important) and basically told the clique, who liked to sit > together as a group, that we were here to listen to THAT presenter and if > they wished to provide their own input to the subject, we would likely > attend their presentation as well. > > The interruptions stopped, not only for the rest of the current > presentation, but also for most future presentations. NewTLUG meetings > became a pleasure to attend. An unwanted side effect was that the hecklers > stopped coming to the meetings. They were welcome there, but better they > leave than me - that was my thought anyway. They were clearly there for the > wrong reasons. > > Speaking up works very well! > > John. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 18:08:15 2014 From: qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bill Thanis) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:08:15 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D74488.3090905@rogers.com> Message-ID: Renata has a point. We need to go through the TLUG-board list and remove the people that are no longer on the board or in the exec. Scott pointed out that TLUG-board needs to go back to being a list for the tlug purposes and not the circle of friends that happen to be on the list. Can we extract the tlug-board list and go through it figuring out who should or shouldn't be on it. For example, I am pretty sure that Leah is still on it. Bill On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Renata Rocha wrote: > I was going to suggest that we implement a timer with a silly picture, > so every time a heckler interrupts the presenter, they (the presenter) > can activate the timer in the screen, counting for how long the > presentation has been interrupted due to heckling. It's a way to deal > with it with a little of humour and will also make hecklers > uncomfortable. Suggested silly pictures could be any current internet > meme. > > (come on, we can write that in 5 languages in 5 minutes...) > > Renata Rocha > http://renata.org > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:37 PM, John Moniz > wrote: > > On 01/15/2014 09:31 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> > >> William Park wrote: > >>> > >>> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and > >>> counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they > >>> want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting > because > >>> they have nothing to learn. Heckling and harassment are side issues. > >>> - > >> > >> I find it very annoying when the heckling interrupts the presentation, > >> sometimes to the point where the presenter is sidetracked to the point > >> that the presentation is a waste of my time. I have to come in from > >> Mississauga and I want to hear the presentation, not someone's > >> interrupting. > >> -- > >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > >> > >> > > Speaking up at times of disruptions really works. Some speakers have the > > skill to handle such disruptions (heckling is not really the right word, > I > > don't think), but most do not and should not have to possess that skill. > > > > At the old NewTLUG meetings (which I attended frequently right from the > very > > first one to the time they ended) some of the same disturbers from the > TLUG > > meetings were also there for a time, causing many, many interruptions. It > > became a waste of a trip and time spent at the meeting. Someone spoke up > > (name is not important) and basically told the clique, who liked to sit > > together as a group, that we were here to listen to THAT presenter and if > > they wished to provide their own input to the subject, we would likely > > attend their presentation as well. > > > > The interruptions stopped, not only for the rest of the current > > presentation, but also for most future presentations. NewTLUG meetings > > became a pleasure to attend. An unwanted side effect was that the > hecklers > > stopped coming to the meetings. They were welcome there, but better they > > leave than me - that was my thought anyway. They were clearly there for > the > > wrong reasons. > > > > Speaking up works very well! > > > > John. > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 18:20:38 2014 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:20:38 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D74488.3090905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <52D822F6.3080203@rogers.com> I ask that any purging of the list be performed carefully. I, and I am sure others, get very useful help from the list but have a hard time getting to meetings. Stephen On 14-01-16 01:08 PM, Bill Thanis wrote: > Renata has a point. We need to go through the TLUG-board list and > remove the people that are no longer on the board or in the exec. > > Scott pointed out that TLUG-board needs to go back to being a list for > the tlug purposes and not the circle of friends that happen to be on > the list. > > Can we extract the tlug-board list and go through it figuring out who > should or shouldn't be on it. For example, I am pretty sure that Leah > is still on it. > > Bill > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Renata Rocha > wrote: > > I was going to suggest that we implement a timer with a silly picture, > so every time a heckler interrupts the presenter, they (the presenter) > can activate the timer in the screen, counting for how long the > presentation has been interrupted due to heckling. It's a way to deal > with it with a little of humour and will also make hecklers > uncomfortable. Suggested silly pictures could be any current internet > meme. > > (come on, we can write that in 5 languages in 5 minutes...) > > Renata Rocha > http://renata.org > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:37 PM, John Moniz > > wrote: > > On 01/15/2014 09:31 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> > >> William Park wrote: > >>> > >>> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to > me and > >>> counter productive as group. People come to the meeting > because they > >>> want to learning something, and people don't come to the > meeting because > >>> they have nothing to learn. Heckling and harassment are side > issues. > >>> - > >> > >> I find it very annoying when the heckling interrupts the > presentation, > >> sometimes to the point where the presenter is sidetracked to > the point > >> that the presentation is a waste of my time. I have to come in > from > >> Mississauga and I want to hear the presentation, not someone's > >> interrupting. > >> -- > >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > >> > >> > > Speaking up at times of disruptions really works. Some speakers > have the > > skill to handle such disruptions (heckling is not really the > right word, I > > don't think), but most do not and should not have to possess > that skill. > > > > At the old NewTLUG meetings (which I attended frequently right > from the very > > first one to the time they ended) some of the same disturbers > from the TLUG > > meetings were also there for a time, causing many, many > interruptions. It > > became a waste of a trip and time spent at the meeting. Someone > spoke up > > (name is not important) and basically told the clique, who liked > to sit > > together as a group, that we were here to listen to THAT > presenter and if > > they wished to provide their own input to the subject, we would > likely > > attend their presentation as well. > > > > The interruptions stopped, not only for the rest of the current > > presentation, but also for most future presentations. NewTLUG > meetings > > became a pleasure to attend. An unwanted side effect was that > the hecklers > > stopped coming to the meetings. They were welcome there, but > better they > > leave than me - that was my thought anyway. They were clearly > there for the > > wrong reasons. > > > > Speaking up works very well! > > > > John. > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- Stephen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 18:25:21 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:25:21 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D822F6.3080203-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D74488.3090905@rogers.com> <52D822F6.3080203@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Stephen wrote: > I ask that any purging of the list be performed carefully. > > I, and I am sure others, get very useful help from the list but have a > hard time getting to meetings. > > Stephen > I think he's talking about the TLUG-board list, not the main TLUG list. On 14-01-16 01:08 PM, Bill Thanis wrote: > > Renata has a point. We need to go through the TLUG-board list and > remove the people that are no longer on the board or in the exec. > > Scott pointed out that TLUG-board needs to go back to being a list for > the tlug purposes and not the circle of friends that happen to be on the > list. > > Can we extract the tlug-board list and go through it figuring out who > should or shouldn't be on it. For example, I am pretty sure that Leah is > still on it. > > Bill > > -- > Stephen > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 18:29:39 2014 From: qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bill Thanis) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:29:39 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D822F6.3080203-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D74488.3090905@rogers.com> <52D822F6.3080203@rogers.com> Message-ID: To clarify, I wasn't speaking about the main list (this one). Any idiot can join this list. It is completely unmoderated or more realistically self-moderated. It is run as a community service and there are no requirements for to join it. The tlug-board list, the list that the execs use to communicate is over a decade old now. It probably contains both the members who are now deceased, and several dozen people that have come and gone from the board and the exec. That is the list we need to clean up. Bill On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Stephen wrote: > I ask that any purging of the list be performed carefully. > > I, and I am sure others, get very useful help from the list but have a > hard time getting to meetings. > > Stephen > > > On 14-01-16 01:08 PM, Bill Thanis wrote: > > Renata has a point. We need to go through the TLUG-board list and > remove the people that are no longer on the board or in the exec. > > Scott pointed out that TLUG-board needs to go back to being a list for > the tlug purposes and not the circle of friends that happen to be on the > list. > > Can we extract the tlug-board list and go through it figuring out who > should or shouldn't be on it. For example, I am pretty sure that Leah is > still on it. > > Bill > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Renata Rocha wrote: > >> I was going to suggest that we implement a timer with a silly picture, >> so every time a heckler interrupts the presenter, they (the presenter) >> can activate the timer in the screen, counting for how long the >> presentation has been interrupted due to heckling. It's a way to deal >> with it with a little of humour and will also make hecklers >> uncomfortable. Suggested silly pictures could be any current internet >> meme. >> >> (come on, we can write that in 5 languages in 5 minutes...) >> >> Renata Rocha >> http://renata.org >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:37 PM, John Moniz >> wrote: >> > On 01/15/2014 09:31 PM, James Knott wrote: >> >> >> >> William Park wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange to me and >> >>> counter productive as group. People come to the meeting because they >> >>> want to learning something, and people don't come to the meeting >> because >> >>> they have nothing to learn. Heckling and harassment are side issues. >> >>> - >> >> >> >> I find it very annoying when the heckling interrupts the presentation, >> >> sometimes to the point where the presenter is sidetracked to the point >> >> that the presentation is a waste of my time. I have to come in from >> >> Mississauga and I want to hear the presentation, not someone's >> >> interrupting. >> >> -- >> >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> >> >> >> > Speaking up at times of disruptions really works. Some speakers have the >> > skill to handle such disruptions (heckling is not really the right >> word, I >> > don't think), but most do not and should not have to possess that skill. >> > >> > At the old NewTLUG meetings (which I attended frequently right from the >> very >> > first one to the time they ended) some of the same disturbers from the >> TLUG >> > meetings were also there for a time, causing many, many interruptions. >> It >> > became a waste of a trip and time spent at the meeting. Someone spoke up >> > (name is not important) and basically told the clique, who liked to sit >> > together as a group, that we were here to listen to THAT presenter and >> if >> > they wished to provide their own input to the subject, we would likely >> > attend their presentation as well. >> > >> > The interruptions stopped, not only for the rest of the current >> > presentation, but also for most future presentations. NewTLUG meetings >> > became a pleasure to attend. An unwanted side effect was that the >> hecklers >> > stopped coming to the meetings. They were welcome there, but better they >> > leave than me - that was my thought anyway. They were clearly there for >> the >> > wrong reasons. >> > >> > Speaking up works very well! >> > >> > John. >> > >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > Stephen > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 18:44:11 2014 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:44:11 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D8287B.8060004@yaknet.ca> On 14-01-16 12:38 PM, Matt Seburn wrote: > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Mauro Souza > wrote: > > I don't felt that people on this list condoned William's > misbehavior, quite the opposite. > > > The group as a whole did not condone his behaviour (most condemned it) > but a few certainly did. > > Even with this issues, I don't recommend anybody leaving the list. > The good people are not to leave. The bad people are. > > > Agreed, however allowing this kind of behaviour to continue unchecked > will necessarily lead to good people leaving. If the administrators > decide they don't care to keep this space free from bullying and > harassment, there's nothing I can do to change it and I'm not going to > waste my time trying. > > Matt > I deleted most these messages but them decided to weigh in as it seems to have filled my inbox. The fact that the vast majority of people have weighed in should speak volumes. Yes the comment was over the top period! Was it meant to be malicious that could be debated. It still shouldn't not have been said. The genie is out of the bottle. What is the hard thing to do is move on and learn by it. Does everyone know William. He seems like a nice person to me and I have met him a couple times. This looks more like a "very bad" choice of words to demonstrate his point about why people attend. E-mail lacks emotion and can be in many ways a terrible way to express a point. It's quite worse when english is you second language and the true meaning of what you are saying is lost on everyone else. You think you are funny, but you are anything but. I actually met the "Bad Russian" he was a nice guy too and was very grateful for components the TLUG members myself included gave him to build a box. He was bitter about Canada with the "Immigrate to Canada we have good jobs for skilled people" hoax. I know so many educated immigrants that got bit. He spoke broken english. I know he also spoke several languages. I understand that F / M members are upset, some are intimidated and I'm empathize with you. I also think William is probably shell shocked by the amount of responses. Perhaps I missed something but before we condemn a person consider do we have all the facts. I'm not condoning but maybe kinder hearts may be of benefit. William perhaps it time to stand up clarify and apologize. There is no harm in admitting a mistake. The harm comes from not learning from it. Peace out John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 18:57:22 2014 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 19:57:22 +0100 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D74488.3090905@rogers.com> <52D822F6.3080203@rogers.com> Message-ID: TLUG is a volunteer organisation which has been in existence for roughly 20 years. There are members of the group who are working very hard to change the character of the organisation while preserving the group as a whole. It's not fair to ignore their efforts, and it is not fair for them to be pressured to discuss private conversations in the public mailing list. It does take time to ensure that everyone's voice is heard on these matters, it also takes time for the organisation to adopt a standard policy on how to handle these matters. There is no one "Voice of TLUG" who can respond instantly to comments on the list or unilaterally ban people. It's not fair to expect somebody to assess, evaluate and execute like that. The steps to create such a process are underway, which is why we're voting on a code of conduct. Each person involved is a human being. People are fallible, and it's not always so clear as to what the right course of action should be. I don't think anyone stood by and ignored William's statement. I take exception that it is the norm for TLUG, and I take exception with the specific directed attacks at William's character. William has been a long time member and deserves an opportunity to make amends of his own accord. To the best of my knowledge, he has not made such a statement in the past. Please do not make assumptions about what kind of conversations are not occurring off-list. In the case of the previous member who was making outrageous comments, I believe they were removed from the list after an unrepentant pattern of ill comments. He was a contributing member of the group, but made no effort to correct his behaviour. I encourage anyone who wants to be involved in setting policy for TLUG to consider running for executive or stepping up and volunteering. People with experience in the creation of community policies and handling issues of professionalism and conduct would be much appreciated. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 18:58:42 2014 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:58:42 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> On 14-01-16 11:01 AM, Matt Seburn wrote: > This thread is absurd to me. Count me as one of those put off enough > by what I see here to consider TLUG utterly useless. > > I attended one meeting years ago, and felt so unwelcome that I haven't > been back since. Heckling was an issue, but I chose not to come back > because the group felt very unwelcoming. It felt like I had walked > into a clique of people who had known each other for years and had no > interest in letting newcomers into the group. I tried to follow along > to the post-meeting social time (hoping that I'd have better luck > socializing there), but everyone walked ahead of me and occasionally > looked back to glare at me until I gave up and left. I'm sure I'm not > the only one who has had an experience like this. > > I stayed on the list because of the useful and interesting discussion, > but now I'm reconsidering that decision. I see a group of people > condoning sexual harassment, and prioritizing the harasser's "right" > to harass above others' right to not be harassed. This is absurd to > me. Free speech does not mean you have the right to say whatever you > want without consequences. You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded > theatre, and you can't sexually harass people. Both actions can and > often do have serious consequences, and for good reason. I'll limit my response to William's comment. No one but maybe a first year philosophy student would argue free speech should not have any limits. The question involves what those limits are. If someone incited hatred to a group or an individual by her actions then we must act to prevent that from occurring because the behaviour is injuring someone else's ability to pursue her life's goals. In my opinion William's comment does not come close to that. It was a crude comment which belies a distasteful sentiment. If you find his comments distasteful then filter his messages to the trash bin or express your distaste to him or both. I worked on an assembly line in a factory in Ontario while in university. The sensibilities there were completely different. Women and men engaged in sexual innuendo usually deriving from stereotypes zestfully. There was no consideration of it being harassment. Everyone smiled or rolled their eyes and played along. The consequences of free speech does involve tolerating distasteful speech in the sense of allowing the perpetrator freedom to offend. The consequences of giving offence can be manifold, not to mention being ostracized from the group. But to silence him or her in the name of social justice is wrong in my opinion as it limits all our speech and gives precedence for further reductions in the space we have for self expression. The nanny state of modern liberalism must be curtailed. Randy > > Moderation is an important part of any internet community. I agree > that the banhammer should be used sparingly, but at a minimum the > moderator's role is to set the tone and ensure that the space remains > useful for its intended purpose, and in TLUG's case this extends to > in-person meetups. Many people in this thread have shared that they > feel the group has become problematic and is not useful to them. I > think this is a real problem that those in charge of TLUG need to pay > attention to. > > If you want to get together with your friends and heckle each other > and make sexist jokes, you are free to do so whenever and wherever you > like. That is not the purpose of TLUG, and it's the responsibility of > those in charge to ensure it remains true to its purpose. > > Matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 19:27:11 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:27:11 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D8287B.8060004-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D8287B.8060004@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:44 PM, John Myshrall wrote: > nice person > Unfortunately "nice people" are also capable of harassment and bullying. Being "nice" does not give you a free pass to get out of the consequences of your actions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 19:29:12 2014 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:29:12 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D82BE2.4010500-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > On 14-01-16 11:01 AM, Matt Seburn wrote: > >> This thread is absurd to me. Count me as one of those put off enough by >> what I see here to consider TLUG utterly useless. >> >> I attended one meeting years ago, and felt so unwelcome that I haven't >> been back since. Heckling was an issue, but I chose not to come back >> because the group felt very unwelcoming. It felt like I had walked into a >> clique of people who had known each other for years and had no interest in >> letting newcomers into the group. I tried to follow along to the >> post-meeting social time (hoping that I'd have better luck socializing >> there), but everyone walked ahead of me and occasionally looked back to >> glare at me until I gave up and left. I'm sure I'm not the only one who >> has had an experience like this. >> >> I stayed on the list because of the useful and interesting discussion, >> but now I'm reconsidering that decision. I see a group of people condoning >> sexual harassment, and prioritizing the harasser's "right" to harass above >> others' right to not be harassed. This is absurd to me. Free speech does >> not mean you have the right to say whatever you want without consequences. >> You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you can't sexually harass >> people. Both actions can and often do have serious consequences, and for >> good reason. >> > I'll limit my response to William's comment. No one but maybe a first > year philosophy student would argue free speech should not have any limits. > The question involves what those limits are. If someone incited hatred to > a group or an individual by her actions then we must act to prevent that > from occurring because the behaviour is injuring someone else's ability to > pursue her life's goals. In my opinion William's comment does not come > close to that. It was a crude comment which belies a distasteful > sentiment. If you find his comments distasteful then filter his messages to > the trash bin or express your distaste to him or both. I worked on an > assembly line in a factory in Ontario while in university. The > sensibilities there were completely different. Women and men engaged in > sexual innuendo usually deriving from stereotypes zestfully. There was no > consideration of it being harassment. Everyone smiled or rolled their eyes > and played along. The consequences of free speech does involve tolerating > distasteful speech in the sense of allowing the perpetrator freedom to > offend. The consequences of giving offence can be manifold, not to mention > being ostracized from the group. But to silence him or her in the name of > social justice is wrong in my opinion as it limits all our speech and gives > precedence for further reductions in the space we have for self expression. > The nanny state of modern liberalism must be curtailed. > > As I said free speech is accorded to you in public. While this list is publicly available it is not a public list. There is a requirement to join it. If you want put your own website up and publish your own views feel free. I'll defend your right to do so. I'd also like to remind everyone that this is a view into the linux world for which we should be ambassadors. I personally make my living from and around the linux ecosystem, and to have derogatory views associated with my name through this list will damage my ability to do so. Given that; I cannot abide this notion of free speech on this list. I don't mind if it is off topic, but if you wouldn't say it in front of your grandmother please keep it to yourself. And if you would say the things that were said in front of your grandmother than I'd vote for banning you. Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 19:51:46 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 14:51:46 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D82BE2.4010500-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > If someone incited hatred to a group or an individual by her actions then > we must act to prevent that from occurring because the behaviour is > injuring someone else's ability to pursue her life's goals. In my opinion > William's comment does not come close to that. > I disagree. His comment basically amounts to "women are whores". If that's not an example of inciting hatred, I'm not sure what is. I worked on an assembly line in a factory in Ontario while in university. > The sensibilities there were completely different. Women and men engaged > in sexual innuendo usually deriving from stereotypes zestfully. There was > no consideration of it being harassment. Everyone smiled or rolled their > eyes and played along. > You're delusional. You're describing a textbook example of workplace sexual harassment. Just because *you* didn't experience it as such doesn't mean the same was true of others. I suspect some of those who "rolled their eyes and played along" felt like they had no choice if they wanted to keep their jobs. This kind of thing is against the law for a reason. The consequences of free speech does involve tolerating distasteful speech > in the sense of allowing the perpetrator freedom to offend. The > consequences of giving offence can be manifold, not to mention being > ostracized from the group. But to silence him or her in the name of social > justice is wrong in my opinion as it limits all our speech and gives > precedence for further reductions in the space we have for self expression. > The nanny state of modern liberalism must be curtailed. > As others have pointed out, "free speech", "censorship" and "the nanny state" are all irrelevant here. William is not in danger of being arrested so his right to free speech is not being challenged. Being a member of the TLUG mailing list is not a right. It's telling that you think that his ability to denigrate an entire class of people is more important than the ability of that class of people to use this space. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 20:02:16 2014 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:02:16 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D8287B.8060004@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: <52D83AC8.2010609@yaknet.ca> On 14-01-16 02:27 PM, Matt Seburn wrote: > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:44 PM, John Myshrall > wrote: > > nice person > > > Unfortunately "nice people" are also capable of harassment and > bullying. Being "nice" does not give you a free pass to get out of > the consequences of your actions. This is not about getting a free pass. Do you know for sure what he was trying say and more importantly his intent ? Do you know him? I think you should "reread" my message before you completely misquote the context of my message. I agree with you. I do not agree with what William wrote. Only he can answer for that. There have been plenty of people that have said they are shock which means they can't believe he said that. This meaning it was wrong but also meaning it's not in his character. It was a bad joke that went really wrong. We have all said / wrote things we wish we hadn't. Stop fishing John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 20:10:00 2014 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:10:00 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I disagree. His comment basically amounts to "women are whores". If that's > not an example of inciting hatred, I'm not sure what is. > > You're delusional. You're describing a textbook example of workplace sexual > harassment. Just because *you* didn't experience it as such doesn't mean > the same was true of others. I suspect some of those who "rolled their eyes > and played along" felt like they had no choice if they wanted to keep their > jobs. This kind of thing is against the law for a reason. I know a story. This girl I know was hired - she thought - because of her skills. Second day on the job and her boss comes and makes a comment about how she is sexy (and other very inappropriate things). She feels really violated and basically tells the boss to fuck off. She loses the job on the spot. People from the office tell her she's such a fool and she should "have played along" because "he does that to all the girls", but "he's such a nice guy". But, you know, "women are whores" and if the guy is a "nice fellow" he is allowed to joke around with the girls, right? What are they complaining about? I'd really like to see these comments taken seriously and it's not because someone is "our friend" or "a nice person" that we should be permissive. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bduncan-m0FWaBiyNdxg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 20:16:29 2014 From: bduncan-m0FWaBiyNdxg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Bill Duncan) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:16:29 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20140116201629.GA5783@linda> I think we're all in agreement that William's comments were totally out of place. I haven't met him, but I suspect that he meant no harm and it was his misunderstanding of what is (and isn't) acceptable behaviour. I'm hoping that he'll come forward and apologize and that we can all get beyond this. The topic of free speech and censorship seems out of place here as it is a private list and the elected executive have the power to do as the members want. The issue might be a more practical one however; who would moderate such a list? How would that impact the timeliness of replies (and that some members might be waiting for a timely reply to issues they have)? So, would some poor sole be required to moderate the list daily? Several times a day maybe? I'm thinking that rather than putting the onus for filtering on one person, that we're all grown up enough here to spread the pain and do the filtering ourselves. If we object to something that was said, either skip it or say something and then skip it. But let's move on.. While I find William's comments abhorent, distasteful and agree that we all should be disgusted by them, I'm amazed at how much bandwidth this has generated. If he has misunderstood or misjudged what is appropriate conversation then educate and expect an apology. If that doesn't work, then send him a note saying "thank you very much but you're not welcome here anymore" and move on. I don't think anyone actually wants the job of moderating the list and the list would become less relevant if we only received them in batches every so often. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 02:51:46PM -0500, Matt Seburn wrote: > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > > > If someone incited hatred to a group or an individual by her actions then > > we must act to prevent that from occurring because the behaviour is > > injuring someone else's ability to pursue her life's goals. In my opinion > > William's comment does not come close to that. > > > > I disagree. His comment basically amounts to "women are whores". If > that's not an example of inciting hatred, I'm not sure what is. > > I worked on an assembly line in a factory in Ontario while in university. > > The sensibilities there were completely different. Women and men engaged > > in sexual innuendo usually deriving from stereotypes zestfully. There was > > no consideration of it being harassment. Everyone smiled or rolled their > > eyes and played along. > > > > You're delusional. You're describing a textbook example of workplace > sexual harassment. Just because *you* didn't experience it as such doesn't > mean the same was true of others. I suspect some of those who "rolled > their eyes and played along" felt like they had no choice if they wanted to > keep their jobs. This kind of thing is against the law for a reason. > > The consequences of free speech does involve tolerating distasteful speech > > in the sense of allowing the perpetrator freedom to offend. The > > consequences of giving offence can be manifold, not to mention being > > ostracized from the group. But to silence him or her in the name of social > > justice is wrong in my opinion as it limits all our speech and gives > > precedence for further reductions in the space we have for self expression. > > The nanny state of modern liberalism must be curtailed. > > > > As others have pointed out, "free speech", "censorship" and "the nanny > state" are all irrelevant here. William is not in danger of being arrested > so his right to free speech is not being challenged. Being a member of the > TLUG mailing list is not a right. > > It's telling that you think that his ability to denigrate an entire class > of people is more important than the ability of that class of people to use > this space. -- Bill Duncan, bduncan-m0FWaBiyNdxg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org +1 416 697-9315 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 20:21:14 2014 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:21:14 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <20140116201629.GA5783@linda> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> <20140116201629.GA5783@linda> Message-ID: <52D83F3A.60704@yaknet.ca> On 14-01-16 03:16 PM, Bill Duncan wrote: > I think we're all in agreement that William's comments were totally > out of place. I haven't met him, but I suspect that he meant no harm > and it was his misunderstanding of what is (and isn't) acceptable > behaviour. I'm hoping that he'll come forward and apologize and that > we can all get beyond this. > > The topic of free speech and censorship seems out of place here as it > is a private list and the elected executive have the power to do as the > members want. > > The issue might be a more practical one however; who would moderate such > a list? How would that impact the timeliness of replies (and that some > members might be waiting for a timely reply to issues they have)? So, > would some poor sole be required to moderate the list daily? Several > times a day maybe? > > I'm thinking that rather than putting the onus for filtering on one > person, that we're all grown up enough here to spread the pain and > do the filtering ourselves. If we object to something that was said, > either skip it or say something and then skip it. But let's move on.. > > While I find William's comments abhorent, distasteful and agree that > we all should be disgusted by them, I'm amazed at how much bandwidth > this has generated. > > > If he has misunderstood or misjudged what is appropriate conversation > then educate and expect an apology. If that doesn't work, then send > him a note saying "thank you very much but you're not welcome here > anymore" and move on. I don't think anyone actually wants the job > of moderating the list and the list would become less relevant if > we only received them in batches every so often. > > < snip> +1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 20:23:50 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:23:50 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't disagree with this, but this is a internet forum (not an office), and all though what I am about to say isn't complementary to William or "Z", especially in Z case, i have to think he was blitz out of his gourd when he did some of his writing. William could have been, could have even pulled a "Rob Ford". These "Meds" (liquor , crack, etc) are not sodium thiopental , not even to say that really is a truth drug. People that may get "medicated" at home, may just do really dumb things, and it may not be accurate at all of there true nature. Hopefully in these cases there is an apology. Maybe even a "Rob Ford" admission moment. -tl On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Renata Rocha wrote: > > I disagree. His comment basically amounts to "women are whores". If > that's > > not an example of inciting hatred, I'm not sure what is. > > > > You're delusional. You're describing a textbook example of workplace > sexual > > harassment. Just because *you* didn't experience it as such doesn't mean > > the same was true of others. I suspect some of those who "rolled their > eyes > > and played along" felt like they had no choice if they wanted to keep > their > > jobs. This kind of thing is against the law for a reason. > > I know a story. This girl I know was hired - she thought - because of > her skills. Second day on the job and her boss comes and makes a > comment about how she is sexy (and other very inappropriate things). > She feels really violated and basically tells the boss to fuck off. > She loses the job on the spot. People from the office tell her she's > such a fool and she should "have played along" because "he does that > to all the girls", but "he's such a nice guy". > > But, you know, "women are whores" and if the guy is a "nice fellow" he > is allowed to joke around with the girls, right? What are they > complaining about? > > I'd really like to see these comments taken seriously and it's not > because someone is "our friend" or "a nice person" that we should be > permissive. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 20:32:32 2014 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:32:32 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D841E0.1010308@gmail.com> On 14-01-16 03:10 PM, Renata Rocha wrote: >> I disagree. His comment basically amounts to "women are whores". If that's >> not an example of inciting hatred, I'm not sure what is. >> >> You're delusional. You're describing a textbook example of workplace sexual >> harassment. Just because *you* didn't experience it as such doesn't mean >> the same was true of others. I suspect some of those who "rolled their eyes >> and played along" felt like they had no choice if they wanted to keep their >> jobs. This kind of thing is against the law for a reason. > I know a story. This girl I know was hired - she thought - because of > her skills. Second day on the job and her boss comes and makes a > comment about how she is sexy (and other very inappropriate things). > She feels really violated and basically tells the boss to fuck off. > She loses the job on the spot. People from the office tell her she's > such a fool and she should "have played along" because "he does that > to all the girls", but "he's such a nice guy". > > But, you know, "women are whores" and if the guy is a "nice fellow" he > is allowed to joke around with the girls, right? What are they > complaining about? I'll make this my last post on the thread. I thank everyone who has taken the time to read and comment. But Renata, what your friend's boss did WAS harassment. He was in a position of authority and failed to take into account your friend's position. I don't think or at least know of anyone on this list who believes "women are whores." I wish William would speak up. Randy > > I'd really like to see these comments taken seriously and it's not > because someone is "our friend" or "a nice person" that we should be > permissive. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 20:32:36 2014 From: qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bill Thanis) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:32:36 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: A point for Bull DUncan: This list will be shut down before it gets moderated. There isn't enough volunteers to do the important stuff, and moderating a list that is run as a courtesy to the community isn't exactly the highest priority. Bill On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:23 PM, ted leslie wrote: > I don't disagree with this, but this is a internet forum (not an office), > and all though what I am about to say isn't > complementary to William or "Z", > especially in Z case, i have to think he was blitz out of his gourd when > he did some of his writing. > William could have been, could have even pulled a "Rob Ford". > These "Meds" (liquor , crack, etc) are not sodium thiopental , not even to > say that really is a truth drug. > People that may get "medicated" at home, may just do really dumb things, > and it may not be accurate at all of there true nature. Hopefully in these > cases there is an apology. Maybe even a "Rob Ford" admission moment. > > -tl > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Renata Rocha wrote: > >> > I disagree. His comment basically amounts to "women are whores". If >> that's >> > not an example of inciting hatred, I'm not sure what is. >> > >> > You're delusional. You're describing a textbook example of workplace >> sexual >> > harassment. Just because *you* didn't experience it as such doesn't >> mean >> > the same was true of others. I suspect some of those who "rolled their >> eyes >> > and played along" felt like they had no choice if they wanted to keep >> their >> > jobs. This kind of thing is against the law for a reason. >> >> I know a story. This girl I know was hired - she thought - because of >> her skills. Second day on the job and her boss comes and makes a >> comment about how she is sexy (and other very inappropriate things). >> She feels really violated and basically tells the boss to fuck off. >> She loses the job on the spot. People from the office tell her she's >> such a fool and she should "have played along" because "he does that >> to all the girls", but "he's such a nice guy". >> >> But, you know, "women are whores" and if the guy is a "nice fellow" he >> is allowed to joke around with the girls, right? What are they >> complaining about? >> >> I'd really like to see these comments taken seriously and it's not >> because someone is "our friend" or "a nice person" that we should be >> permissive. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 20:48:04 2014 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:48:04 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> <52D82BE2.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D84584.1000108@mylesbraithwaite.com> Bill Thanis wrote: > A point for Bull DUncan: > This list will be shut down before it gets moderated. There isn't enough > volunteers to do the important stuff, and moderating a list that is run > as a courtesy to the community isn't exactly the highest priority. This is not an official statement from the board. The mailing list is the second highest priority of the GTALUG origination (first being finding speakers for the meetings). The software/setup that is currently running the mailing list is really old and has a limited feature set (which makes it hard for the GTALUG volunteers to moderate) also it is running on someones personal server who wont give access to anyone else. The current president of GTALUG, Scott, is working on updating the infrastructure (updating software and moving it to an independent server) that runs this mailing list with one of the requirements being better control over the mailing list. -- Myles Braithwaite | http://mylesb.ca/e -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 20:51:53 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:51:53 -0500 Subject: HP MFP M726nw [was Re:All-in-one Colour Laser] In-Reply-To: References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52D0288B.5070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 01/15/2014 12:24 PM, John Moniz wrote: > On 01/10/2014 12:06 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >> On 14-01-10 11:11 AM, John Moniz wrote: >>> What about scanning? I suppose I still have to worry about drivers for >>> that function? >> Brother pretty much rely on x86/x86_64 binary drivers for printing and >> scanning. That might be a problem for you if you're not running x86 >> systems. >> >> I find it easier to scan to my AIO's SD card (I have an Epson WorkForce >> WF-7520 large format inkjet) which appears on the network as a Samba >> share. While there are scanner drivers for SANE for this, they're not >> very smart: duplex pages, for instance, appear upside down. The PDFs >> retrieved from the network share are all right-way-up. >> >> I've found the duplex scanning and network storage very handy, and >> if/when I have to replace the Epson, they'll be high on the list. >> >> It's at times like this I wish that the Linux Printing Database still >> worked. It's got lots of broken links since it joined the L*n*x >> F**nd*t**n (name redacted to prevent certain list-members from >> exploding). >> >> cheers, >> Stewart >> >> > Neither of the specific models mentioned in reply (the Brother > MFC-9125CN & HP CP1518ni) could be found in the Linux Printing > Database, so never would have known about them without a > recommendation. Thanks. > > Re: HP MFP M276nw > Is anyone using one of these? While out looking for the printers > recommended above, I ran into the HP MFP 276nw, which has an RJ45 plug > as well as being wireless, on sale for $250. A very good price and > just the size I'm looking for. > > Looking at the HP Linux site, it needs the hplip driver. This model is > listed for Linux as "Support level: Full" and "Recommended: Yes". > http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/models/color_laserjet/hp_laserjet_200_colormfp_m276nw.html > > > For anyone who has experience with HP multi-function devices and the > hplip driver, am I safe in assuming this will work? If I'm going to > buy it, I'd like to do it while it's still on sale. > > Many thanks, > > John. > HP MFP M726nw colour multi function laser printer: One last try before I lose out on the sale price. If anyone is using this printer, or knows about it, please let me know if it works with Linux as I'm about to go buy one. Thanks, John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 23:26:45 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 18:26:45 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D745F3.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D86AB5.2040604@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Matt wrote: > I attended one meeting years ago, and felt so unwelcome that I > haven't been back since. Heckling was an issue, I've also been to only one TLUG meeting, about a year ago. I went to the pre-meeting dinner, where only one woman attended (sorry, I've completely forgotten your name). We sat across from each other, and I don't believe there was any sexism or other unwelcome attention from anyone. The speaker at the meeting was a guest from Sweden, presenting a particularly technical topic. Again, I didn't observe any heckling or other disruptive activity. Certainly he was peppered with questions throughout his presentation, but as far as I could tell they were legitimate questions seeking to further the questioner's knowledge, not heckling. It turns out that meeting was the TLUG Executive Elections night. I'm not a TLUG member; I was a self-invited guest to the meeting (and the pre-dinner, and the post-gathering). As a non-member I couldn't vote in the elections, but wasn't made to feel unwelcome at all. In fact, when I came along to the post-meeting gathering I seemed to be fully accepted. Now, it turns out I knew a couple of the TLUG members from other gatherings (Hackerspace meetings, Ubuntu Release Parties). So maybe my positive experience is because everyone was on their best behaviour trying to impress me. Or maybe it was because I'm in the clique, and a naive, unsocialized loner, and part of the problem. But I don't think so. TLUG meetings aren't *all* as bad as they've been made out here. - --Bob, extrapolating from a sample size of one. On 14-01-16 11:01 AM, Matt Seburn wrote: > This thread is absurd to me. Count me as one of those put off > enough by what I see here to consider TLUG utterly useless. > > I attended one meeting years ago, and felt so unwelcome that I > haven't been back since. Heckling was an issue, but I chose not > to come back because the group felt very unwelcoming. It felt like > I had walked into a clique of people who had known each other for > years and had no interest in letting newcomers into the group. I > tried to follow along to the post-meeting social time (hoping that > I'd have better luck socializing there), but everyone walked ahead > of me and occasionally looked back to glare at me until I gave up > and left. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had an experience > like this. > > I stayed on the list because of the useful and interesting > discussion, but now I'm reconsidering that decision. I see a > group of people condoning sexual harassment, and prioritizing the > harasser's "right" to harass above others' right to not be > harassed. This is absurd to me. Free speech does not mean you have > the right to say whatever you want without consequences. You can't > yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you can't sexually harass > people. Both actions can and often do have serious consequences, > and for good reason. > > Moderation is an important part of any internet community. I > agree that the banhammer should be used sparingly, but at a minimum > the moderator's role is to set the tone and ensure that the space > remains useful for its intended purpose, and in TLUG's case this > extends to in-person meetups. Many people in this thread have > shared that they feel the group has become problematic and is not > useful to them. I think this is a real problem that those in > charge of TLUG need to pay attention to. > > If you want to get together with your friends and heckle each > other and make sexist jokes, you are free to do so whenever and > wherever you like. That is not the purpose of TLUG, and it's the > responsibility of those in charge to ensure it remains true to its > purpose. > > Matt > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Colin McGregor > wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Stewart C. Russell >> wrote: >> >>> On 14-01-15 07:53 PM, William Park wrote: >>>> >>>> Come on, guys. This bitching about TLUG meeting is strange >>>> to me and counter productive as group. >>> >>> Actually, no; it's very productive to constructively criticize >>> something you want to see improve. In the link that Colin >>> posted, it's written up under ?Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends >>> Accept Me As I Am?: >>> http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html ? read it, >>> it's good. >>> >> >> Sorry, my bad, I first heard about the Geek Social Fallacy >> article via Stewart Russell on Monday, and I didn't credit him. >> Bottom line though, there are points in that article that should >> be driven home to a GTALug (and several other geek groups) >> audience (sad but true). >> >> I often attend the GTALug board meetings, even though I am not a >> board member. It is my hope that at the next board meeting >> GTALug will adopt a formal code of conduct and then be prepared >> to enforce the code... >> >> So, while I know the TLUG directors have tried their best, I >> have to say >>> that the new room at Ryerson is definitely sub-standard. In >>> the days of pretending to be associated with UofT, at least the >>> rooms were big enough that the annoying back-channel chatter >>> didn't prevent you from hearing everything. >>> >>>> People come to the meeting because they want to learning >>>> something, and people don't come to the meeting because they >>>> have nothing to learn. >>> >>> While TLUG has a roster of genuine subject matter experts who >>> are a joy to listen to, there are a number of folks at meetings >>> who - maybe - just come to give their 2? on whatever topic is >>> being presented. I understand that it's sometimes hard to >>> contain one's natural exuberance about sharing knowledge, but >>> it's better to be kind than correct, so we should strive to >>> remember that a presenter is just giving their experience of >>> their way of running their system. It may be vastly different >>> from the way we'd do it, but if it works, good! >>> >>> Stewart >>> >>> (who may have occasionally used ?cat file | ??, but is yet to >>> run out of processes to do so) -- The Toronto Linux Users >>> Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux >>> topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLYarQACgkQuRKJsNLM5epy2ACfY5t0ML/nlRiRF86K2L/IbxJ+ w2QAnjLK1JKNFJs+MCfJClnCBlgVAS2d =uTxP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 23:35:37 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 18:35:37 -0500 Subject: HP MFP M726nw [was Re:All-in-one Colour Laser] In-Reply-To: References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52D0288B.5070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52D86CC9.2010208@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John wrote: > HP MFP M726nw colour multi function laser printer: > > One last try before I lose out on the sale price. If anyone is > using this printer, or knows about it, please let me know if it > works with Linux as I'm about to go buy one. This is as close as I can get: My father-in-law has an HP all-in-one *inkjet* printer (Officejet 6600). He doesn't do any scanning, so I can't comment on that, but the printer was automatically detected by Ubuntu 13.10 and both printing and faxing works flawlessly. So, HP has good Linux-compatibilty cred with me. - --Bob. On 14-01-16 03:51 PM, John Moniz wrote: > On 01/15/2014 12:24 PM, John Moniz wrote: >> On 01/10/2014 12:06 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >>> On 14-01-10 11:11 AM, John Moniz wrote: >>>> What about scanning? I suppose I still have to worry about >>>> drivers for that function? >>> Brother pretty much rely on x86/x86_64 binary drivers for >>> printing and scanning. That might be a problem for you if >>> you're not running x86 systems. >>> >>> I find it easier to scan to my AIO's SD card (I have an Epson >>> WorkForce WF-7520 large format inkjet) which appears on the >>> network as a Samba share. While there are scanner drivers for >>> SANE for this, they're not very smart: duplex pages, for >>> instance, appear upside down. The PDFs retrieved from the >>> network share are all right-way-up. >>> >>> I've found the duplex scanning and network storage very handy, >>> and if/when I have to replace the Epson, they'll be high on >>> the list. >>> >>> It's at times like this I wish that the Linux Printing >>> Database still worked. It's got lots of broken links since it >>> joined the L*n*x F**nd*t**n (name redacted to prevent certain >>> list-members from exploding). >>> >>> cheers, Stewart >>> >>> >> Neither of the specific models mentioned in reply (the Brother >> MFC-9125CN & HP CP1518ni) could be found in the Linux Printing >> Database, so never would have known about them without a >> recommendation. Thanks. >> >> Re: HP MFP M276nw Is anyone using one of these? While out >> looking for the printers recommended above, I ran into the HP MFP >> 276nw, which has an RJ45 plug as well as being wireless, on sale >> for $250. A very good price and just the size I'm looking for. >> >> Looking at the HP Linux site, it needs the hplip driver. This >> model is listed for Linux as "Support level: Full" and >> "Recommended: Yes". >> http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/models/color_laserjet/hp_laserjet_200_colormfp_m276nw.html >> >> >> >> >> For anyone who has experience with HP multi-function devices and the >> hplip driver, am I safe in assuming this will work? If I'm going >> to buy it, I'd like to do it while it's still on sale. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> John. >> > HP MFP M726nw colour multi function laser printer: > > One last try before I lose out on the sale price. If anyone is > using this printer, or knows about it, please let me know if it > works with Linux as I'm about to go buy one. > > Thanks, > > John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLYbMgACgkQuRKJsNLM5eq3dwCgnW4N1H1oLPkYcrwJZyCIxtiA 3cMAn0Vawo7NmCPjzZbO48yIYbPEF/sJ =iBZN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 16 23:59:02 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 18:59:02 -0500 Subject: HP MFP M726nw [was Re:All-in-one Colour Laser] Message-ID: VGhhbmtzLiBJJ20gaW4gdGhlIHN0b3JlIG5vdy4gU2FsZSBpcyBvdmVyLCB0aGV5IGFyZSBjaGVj a2luZyBvbiB3aGF0IHByaWNlIHRoZXkgY2FuIGRvIGZvciBtZSwgYnV0IHdpbGwgbm90IG1hdGNo IHRoZSBvbGQgcHJpY2UuIE15IGxvc3MuCgpCb2IgSm9ua21hbiA8YmpvbmttYW5Ac29iYWMuY29t PiB3cm90ZToKCj4tLS0tLUJFR0lOIFBHUCBTSUdORUQgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tCj5IYXNoOiBTSEEx Cj4KPkpvaG4gd3JvdGU6Cj4+IEhQIE1GUCBNNzI2bncgY29sb3VyIG11bHRpIGZ1bmN0aW9uIGxh c2VyIHByaW50ZXI6Cj4+IAo+PiBPbmUgbGFzdCB0cnkgYmVmb3JlIEkgbG9zZSBvdXQgb24gdGhl IHNhbGUgcHJpY2UuIElmIGFueW9uZSBpcyAKPj4gdXNpbmcgdGhpcyBwcmludGVyLCBvciBrbm93 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Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 00:55:57 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 19:55:57 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> So I've managed to get a temperature sensor wired up and outputting data from my Raspberry Pi. I can poll the /sys/bus/w1/devices file for the sensor and see output like the following: 1a 01 4b 46 7f ff 06 10 ea : crc=ea YES 1a 01 4b 46 7f ff 06 10 ea t=17625 I've given myself the exercise of learning some C and so far I've done a reasonable job with a C function to read it and get the t=17625 value as a temperature, the function's output: temp is : 17.7C const char file[] = "/sys/bus/w1/devices/device-id-here/w1_slave"; float get_temp() { FILE *fp; char line[40], temp_raw[5]; fp = fopen(file, "r"); if (fp == NULL) { fprintf(stderr, "File %s not found\n", file); exit(1); } else { while (fgets(line, 40, fp) != NULL) { // pass, just want the last line of the file } fclose(fp); } int len = strlen(line); strncpy(temp_raw, line+len-6, 6); float temp_f = floorf((atof(temp_raw)/1000 + 0.05)*100)/100; printf("temp is : %.1f\n", temp_f ); return temp_f; } So ok, great, job done right? Well I don't think so. I think I'm going about this in a very non-reusable manner. I can't tell if the device is returning lines one at a time to stdout first of all, hence the while loop. Question 1) Would fread( )or fscanf() be better here? Can I skip the while loop? What if this was 500,000 lines long? Any better way? I was thinking of looking at how head and tail in coreutils handle this but figured to ask here first. Second, I'm not sure how to extract the t=17625 value - it is always at position len-6 (\0 line termination needs to be accounted for). It is always the same length which is great. But: Question 2) Is there a better way than strncpy? Thanks for any tips, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 01:01:50 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 20:01:50 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <52D87F9D.30804-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <52D880FE.9060805@utoronto.ca> On 16/01/14 07:55 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > So I've managed to get a temperature sensor wired up and outputting data > from my Raspberry Pi. I can poll the /sys/bus/w1/devices file for the > sensor and see output like the following: > > 1a 01 4b 46 7f ff 06 10 ea : crc=ea YES > 1a 01 4b 46 7f ff 06 10 ea t=17625 > > I've given myself the exercise of learning some C and so far I've done a > reasonable job with a C function to read it and get the t=17625 value as > a temperature, the function's output: temp is : 17.7C > > const char file[] = "/sys/bus/w1/devices/device-id-here/w1_slave"; > float get_temp() { > FILE *fp; > char line[40], temp_raw[5]; > fp = fopen(file, "r"); > if (fp == NULL) { > fprintf(stderr, "File %s not found\n", file); > exit(1); > } > else { > while (fgets(line, 40, fp) != NULL) { > // pass, just want the last line of the file > } > fclose(fp); > } > int len = strlen(line); > strncpy(temp_raw, line+len-6, 6); > float temp_f = floorf((atof(temp_raw)/1000 + 0.05)*100)/100; > printf("temp is : %.1f\n", temp_f ); > return temp_f; > } > > So ok, great, job done right? Well I don't think so. I think I'm going > about this in a very non-reusable manner. I can't tell if the device is > returning lines one at a time to stdout first of all, hence the while loop. > > Question 1) Would fread( )or fscanf() be better here? Can I skip the > while loop? What if this was 500,000 lines long? Any better way? I was > thinking of looking at how head and tail in coreutils handle this but > figured to ask here first. > > Second, I'm not sure how to extract the t=17625 value - it is always at > position len-6 (\0 line termination needs to be accounted for). It is > always the same length which is great. But: > > Question 2) Is there a better way than strncpy? > > Thanks for any tips, Ah and note: I know that the inline variable assignment is bad form, I'm just trying to save some space. I also know my rounding is off here: float temp_f = floorf((atof(temp_raw)/1000 + 0.05)*100)/100; But that I can figure out on my own. Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 01:21:19 2014 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 20:21:19 -0500 Subject: Women and TLUG - a personal rant In-Reply-To: <52D822F6.3080203-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D6CE57.2030603@rogers.com> <20140115191343.GB14928@amber> <20140116005359.GA22882@node1.localdomain> <52D74488.3090905@rogers.com> <52D822F6.3080203@rogers.com> Message-ID: <52D8858F.2040305@ss.org> On 01/16/2014 01:20 PM, Stephen wrote: > I ask that any purging of the list be performed carefully. > > I, and I am sure others, get very useful help from the list but have a > hard time getting to meetings. > > Stephen Stephen, Bill is referring to a very specific operations mailing list [tlug-board]. and not the main [tlug-discussion] list. > On 14-01-16 01:08 PM, Bill Thanis wrote: >> Renata has a point. We need to go through the TLUG-board list and >> remove the people that are no longer on the board or in the exec. >> >> Scott pointed out that TLUG-board needs to go back to being a list for >> the tlug purposes and not the circle of friends that happen to be on >> the list. >> >> Can we extract the tlug-board list and go through it figuring out who >> should or shouldn't be on it. For example, I am pretty sure that Leah >> is still on it. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 01:43:47 2014 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 20:43:47 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <52D880FE.9060805-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D880FE.9060805@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1389923027.6306.3.camel@tecumseth3> On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 20:01 -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 16/01/14 07:55 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > > So I've managed to get a temperature sensor wired up and outputting data > > from my Raspberry Pi. I can poll the /sys/bus/w1/devices file for the > > sensor and see output like the following: > > [ ... ] > Ah and note: I know that the inline variable assignment is bad form, I'm > just trying to save some space. I also know my rounding is off here: > float temp_f = floorf((atof(temp_raw)/1000 + 0.05)*100)/100; > > But that I can figure out on my own. Could I ask which sensor you're using, and how you've hooked it up? I'm doing similar things here, using RHT02, RHT03 or DS1820B. I've been using them with Arduini, though. I have some RasPi boards to play with. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 01:54:09 2014 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 20:54:09 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <52D87F9D.30804-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <52D88D41.9000209@ve3syb.ca> On 14-01-16 07:55 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Second, I'm not sure how to extract the t=17625 value - it is always at > position len-6 (\0 line termination needs to be accounted for). It is > always the same length which is great. But: > > Question 2) Is there a better way than strncpy? FYI, in your original (as pasted), you declared temp_raw as a char array with space for five characters but your strncpy was reading in up to 6 characters. The temp_raw buffer should have been big enough to hold the maximum number of characters. strncpy could read up to 6 characters so temp_raw should be declared with 7 minimum (up to 6 from strncpy, plus space for a terminating NUL). Avoiding strncpy: float raw_temp; sscanf(&line[len-6], "%f", &raw_temp); float temp_f = floorf((raw_temp/1000 + 0.05)*100)/100; -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 02:25:37 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 21:25:37 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1389923027.6306.3.camel@tecumseth3> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D880FE.9060805@utoronto.ca> <1389923027.6306.3.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: <52D894A1.9000802@utoronto.ca> On 16/01/14 08:43 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: >> Ah and note: I know that the inline variable assignment is bad form, I'm >> just trying to save some space. I also know my rounding is off here: >> float temp_f = floorf((atof(temp_raw)/1000 + 0.05)*100)/100; >> >> But that I can figure out on my own. > > Could I ask which sensor you're using, and how you've hooked it up? I'm > doing similar things here, using RHT02, RHT03 or DS1820B. I've been > using them with Arduini, though. I have some RasPi boards to play with. I'm using a DS18B20 as well, hence that float rounding - it's supposed to be accurate to +/- 0.5C through most of it's range, but I've measured with other thermometers and it's close enough to 1/10th for my purposes. I've used it with an Ardunino as well with the Dallas 1-wire scanning library. Is that what you used? I also tried building an op-amp for PT-100 sensors but couldn't get it going, hence overpaying for a 1-wire device :p Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 02:37:27 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 21:37:27 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <52D88D41.9000209-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D88D41.9000209@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <52D89767.8030605@utoronto.ca> On 16/01/14 08:54 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 14-01-16 07:55 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Second, I'm not sure how to extract the t=17625 value - it is always at >> position len-6 (\0 line termination needs to be accounted for). It is >> always the same length which is great. But: >> >> Question 2) Is there a better way than strncpy? > > FYI, in your original (as pasted), you declared temp_raw as a char array > with space for five characters but your strncpy was reading in up to 6 > characters. The temp_raw buffer should have been big enough to hold the > maximum number of characters. strncpy could read up to 6 characters so > temp_raw should be declared with 7 minimum (up to 6 from strncpy, plus > space for a terminating NUL). > > Avoiding strncpy: > > float raw_temp; > sscanf(&line[len-6], "%f", &raw_temp); > float temp_f = floorf((raw_temp/1000 + 0.05)*100)/100; Ah interesting, do I understand this correctly as: sscanf returns the indicated 6 bytes of the contents of the string 'line' into the memory address of the float raw_temp? Thanks, I like it better, if only because it's another method I'd never have figured out on my own and I need to get better with pointers ;) Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 05:03:32 2014 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:03:32 -0500 Subject: Apology (was: Women and TLUG - a personal rant) Message-ID: <20140117050331.GA12491@node1.localdomain> To TLUG, I would like to apologize to all concerned about my comment yesterday. When "Women and TLUG" thread came up twice, I correctly ignored it. Yesterday, however, my fingers were responding to TLUG list, but my mind was still responding to something else. I regret very much the memory corruption which caused my raw comment to end up on TLUG. Yours truly, -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 07:19:49 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 02:19:49 -0500 Subject: Apology (was: Women and TLUG - a personal rant) In-Reply-To: <20140117050331.GA12491-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140117050331.GA12491@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: <52D8D995.4090702@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thanx William. Speaking strictly for myself, I'm glad that's over. - --Bob. On 14-01-17 12:03 AM, William Park wrote: > To TLUG, > > I would like to apologize to all concerned about my comment > yesterday. When "Women and TLUG" thread came up twice, I correctly > ignored it. Yesterday, however, my fingers were responding to TLUG > list, but my mind was still responding to something else. I regret > very much the memory corruption which caused my raw comment to end > up on TLUG. > > Yours truly, > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLY2ZIACgkQuRKJsNLM5eqKYgCfdz3yGyBTf9b1U6ChPHyD68d3 i3EAmwZCFXMaLW+gMz98D2Man+1ZPgU2 =3E/w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sam-mbGOkdUrTekDvCpQy/7GcA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 13:13:54 2014 From: sam-mbGOkdUrTekDvCpQy/7GcA at public.gmane.org (Sam Sgro) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:13:54 -0500 Subject: Tcl's 25th Birthday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth, here is an older post from Salvatore Sanfilippo (aka antirez, the author of Redis ) on why Tcl is a misunderstood and unfairly maligned language :) It's a fairly interesting read. http://antirez.com/articoli/tclmisunderstood.html On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Christopher Browne wrote: > 2014 marks 25 years of Tcl... > http://blog.tkdocs.com/2014/01/happy-25th-tcl.html > > Here's a pithy description... > > "For anyone under 40 years old, you can think of Tcl like Ruby or Python, > if those languages didn't have objects, if absolutely everything in them > was treated as a string, and if every syntax rule added to the language > resulted in its creator being tortured for one year." > > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > > -- > Sam Sgro > sam.sgro-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 13:58:18 2014 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:58:18 -0500 Subject: Apology (was: Women and TLUG - a personal rant) In-Reply-To: <20140117050331.GA12491-+21/tKCbORjP0Z7Jsv878P8+0UxHXcjY@public.gmane.org> References: <20140117050331.GA12491@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: Thank you William, your apology means a lot! It's really great to see people like you re-thinking their behaviour and up to stand up and write a public apology recognizing that they did something wrong. Considering you are a smart dude and open for self-improvement, I'd recommend researching about gender equality. Have an awesome day! Renata Rocha http://renata.org On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:03 AM, William Park wrote: > To TLUG, > > I would like to apologize to all concerned about my comment yesterday. > When "Women and TLUG" thread came up twice, I correctly ignored it. > Yesterday, however, my fingers were responding to TLUG list, but my mind > was still responding to something else. I regret very much the memory > corruption which caused my raw comment to end up on TLUG. > > Yours truly, > -- > William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 14:41:03 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:41:03 -0500 Subject: Apology (was: Women and TLUG - a personal rant) In-Reply-To: References: <20140117050331.GA12491@node1.localdomain> Message-ID: Agreed, thanks William! On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 8:58 AM, Renata Rocha wrote: > Thank you William, your apology means a lot! It's really great to see > people like you re-thinking their behaviour and up to stand up and > write a public apology recognizing that they did something wrong. > > Considering you are a smart dude and open for self-improvement, I'd > recommend researching about gender equality. > > Have an awesome day! > > > Renata Rocha > http://renata.org > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:03 AM, William Park > wrote: > > To TLUG, > > > > I would like to apologize to all concerned about my comment yesterday. > > When "Women and TLUG" thread came up twice, I correctly ignored it. > > Yesterday, however, my fingers were responding to TLUG list, but my mind > > was still responding to something else. I regret very much the memory > > corruption which caused my raw comment to end up on TLUG. > > > > Yours truly, > > -- > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 14:41:56 2014 From: qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bill Thanis) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:41:56 -0500 Subject: HP MFP M726nw [was Re:All-in-one Colour Laser] In-Reply-To: <52D86CC9.2010208-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20140110155715.GO17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52D0288B.5070805@gmail.com> <52D86CC9.2010208@sobac.com> Message-ID: I have a HP mfp 822n and after checking the list of supported printers in hplip the HP MFP M726nw on the list of supported printers. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > John wrote: > > HP MFP M726nw colour multi function laser printer: > > > > One last try before I lose out on the sale price. If anyone is > > using this printer, or knows about it, please let me know if it > > works with Linux as I'm about to go buy one. > > This is as close as I can get: My father-in-law has an HP all-in-one > *inkjet* printer (Officejet 6600). He doesn't do any scanning, so I > can't comment on that, but the printer was automatically detected by > Ubuntu 13.10 and both printing and faxing works flawlessly. So, HP > has good Linux-compatibilty cred with me. > > - --Bob. > > > On 14-01-16 03:51 PM, John Moniz wrote: > > On 01/15/2014 12:24 PM, John Moniz wrote: > >> On 01/10/2014 12:06 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > >>> On 14-01-10 11:11 AM, John Moniz wrote: > >>>> What about scanning? I suppose I still have to worry about > >>>> drivers for that function? > >>> Brother pretty much rely on x86/x86_64 binary drivers for > >>> printing and scanning. That might be a problem for you if > >>> you're not running x86 systems. > >>> > >>> I find it easier to scan to my AIO's SD card (I have an Epson > >>> WorkForce WF-7520 large format inkjet) which appears on the > >>> network as a Samba share. While there are scanner drivers for > >>> SANE for this, they're not very smart: duplex pages, for > >>> instance, appear upside down. The PDFs retrieved from the > >>> network share are all right-way-up. > >>> > >>> I've found the duplex scanning and network storage very handy, > >>> and if/when I have to replace the Epson, they'll be high on > >>> the list. > >>> > >>> It's at times like this I wish that the Linux Printing > >>> Database still worked. It's got lots of broken links since it > >>> joined the L*n*x F**nd*t**n (name redacted to prevent certain > >>> list-members from exploding). > >>> > >>> cheers, Stewart > >>> > >>> > >> Neither of the specific models mentioned in reply (the Brother > >> MFC-9125CN & HP CP1518ni) could be found in the Linux Printing > >> Database, so never would have known about them without a > >> recommendation. Thanks. > >> > >> Re: HP MFP M276nw Is anyone using one of these? While out > >> looking for the printers recommended above, I ran into the HP MFP > >> 276nw, which has an RJ45 plug as well as being wireless, on sale > >> for $250. A very good price and just the size I'm looking for. > >> > >> Looking at the HP Linux site, it needs the hplip driver. This > >> model is listed for Linux as "Support level: Full" and > >> "Recommended: Yes". > >> > http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/models/color_laserjet/hp_laserjet_200_colormfp_m276nw.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > For anyone who has experience with HP multi-function devices and the > >> hplip driver, am I safe in assuming this will work? If I'm going > >> to buy it, I'd like to do it while it's still on sale. > >> > >> Many thanks, > >> > >> John. > >> > > HP MFP M726nw colour multi function laser printer: > > > > One last try before I lose out on the sale price. If anyone is > > using this printer, or knows about it, please let me know if it > > works with Linux as I'm about to go buy one. > > > > Thanks, > > > > John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > > http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > > below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability > > iEYEARECAAYFAlLYbMgACgkQuRKJsNLM5eq3dwCgnW4N1H1oLPkYcrwJZyCIxtiA > 3cMAn0Vawo7NmCPjzZbO48yIYbPEF/sJ > =iBZN > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 14:49:20 2014 From: qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bill Thanis) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:49:20 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <52D87F9D.30804-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: I'm not sure if the exercise is to learn C or to read the device. If it is simply to read the device, tail -f should work fine. Bill On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > So I've managed to get a temperature sensor wired up and outputting data > from my Raspberry Pi. I can poll the /sys/bus/w1/devices file for the > sensor and see output like the following: > > 1a 01 4b 46 7f ff 06 10 ea : crc=ea YES > 1a 01 4b 46 7f ff 06 10 ea t=17625 > > I've given myself the exercise of learning some C and so far I've done a > reasonable job with a C function to read it and get the t=17625 value as > a temperature, the function's output: temp is : 17.7C > > const char file[] = "/sys/bus/w1/devices/device-id-here/w1_slave"; > float get_temp() { > FILE *fp; > char line[40], temp_raw[5]; > fp = fopen(file, "r"); > if (fp == NULL) { > fprintf(stderr, "File %s not found\n", file); > exit(1); > } > else { > while (fgets(line, 40, fp) != NULL) { > // pass, just want the last line of the file > } > fclose(fp); > } > int len = strlen(line); > strncpy(temp_raw, line+len-6, 6); > float temp_f = floorf((atof(temp_raw)/1000 + 0.05)*100)/100; > printf("temp is : %.1f\n", temp_f ); > return temp_f; > } > > So ok, great, job done right? Well I don't think so. I think I'm going > about this in a very non-reusable manner. I can't tell if the device is > returning lines one at a time to stdout first of all, hence the while loop. > > Question 1) Would fread( )or fscanf() be better here? Can I skip the > while loop? What if this was 500,000 lines long? Any better way? I was > thinking of looking at how head and tail in coreutils handle this but > figured to ask here first. > > Second, I'm not sure how to extract the t=17625 value - it is always at > position len-6 (\0 line termination needs to be accounted for). It is > always the same length which is great. But: > > Question 2) Is there a better way than strncpy? > > Thanks for any tips, > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 15:17:50 2014 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 10:17:50 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <52D894A1.9000802-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D880FE.9060805@utoronto.ca> <1389923027.6306.3.camel@tecumseth3> <52D894A1.9000802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1389971870.3481.11.camel@tecumseth3> On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 21:25 -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 16/01/14 08:43 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > [ ... ] > I'm using a DS18B20 as well, hence that float rounding - it's supposed > to be accurate to +/- 0.5C through most of it's range, but I've measured > with other thermometers and it's close enough to 1/10th for my purposes. > > I've used it with an Ardunino as well with the Dallas 1-wire scanning > library. Is that what you used? My apologies. I'm way too shambolic in running these projects. The RHT03 temperature/humidity sensor (with its host of part-numbers) with the Arduino is the setup I've got results from. My DS18B20 project is still only prototype code that will be run on an AVR. Both of these setups use bit-banged interfaces. You're working farther up the food chain than I am. Without actual results, just to post something, here's my initial DS18B20 code (Some of those newlines are from the mail client. Can't get them out): //===================================== #ifndef DS18B20_H #define DS19B20 #include typedef uint8_t romcode_t [8]; extern void delay_msec (int msec); extern void delay_usec (int usec); void bus_setup (); uint16_t read_temperature (romcode_t device_rom); #endif // DS18B20 //===================================== #include #include "ds18b20.h" #define bit_set(F,B) (F |= (1<<(B))) #define bit_clr(F,B) (F &= ~(1<<(B))) #define bit_tst(F,B) (F & (1<<(B))) #define bit_val(F,B) (bit_tst(F,B) != 0) #define pin_clr(P) (bit_clr (P)) #define pin_set(P) (bit_set (P)) #define BUS_OUTPUT_PIN PORTB,2 #define BUS_INPUT_PIN PINB,2 #define BUS_DDR_OUT (bit_set (DDRB,2)) #define BUS_DDR_IN (bit_clr (DDRB,2)) void bus_setup () { BUS_DDR_IN; pin_clr (BUS_OUTPUT_PIN); } // bus_setup static void bus_low () { BUS_DDR_OUT; } // bus_low static void bus_release () { BUS_DDR_IN; } // bus_release static uint8_t bus_pin () { return bit_val (BUS_INPUT_PIN); } // bus_pin static void master_write (uint8_t bit_val) { bus_low(); if (bit_val) { // write "1" bit delay_usec (2); bus_release(); delay_usec (58); } else { // write "0" bit delay_usec (60); bus_release(); } } // master_write static int master_read () { uint8_t val; bus_low(); delay_usec (1); bus_release(); delay_usec (14); val = bus_pin(); if (!val) // slave is driving bus pin low delay_usec (45); return val; }// master_read static uint8_t transaction_initialization() { uint8_t delay_count; uint8_t slave_present; bus_low(); delay_usec (480); // reset pulse bus_release(); while (!bus_pin()) ; delay_usec (14); slave_present = 0; for (delay_count=0; delay_count < 240; ++delay_count) { if (!bus_pin()) slave_present = 1; } delay_usec (480 - 14 - delay_count); return slave_present; } // transaction_initialization static void transmit_uint8 (uint8_t data) { uint8_t i; for (i=0; i < 8; ++i) { master_write (data & 1); data >>= 1; } } // transmit_uint8 static uint8_t receive_uint8 () { uint8_t i, val; for (i=0; i < 8; ++i) val = val | (bus_pin() << i); } // receive_uint8 uint8_t transaction (uint8_t rom_command, uint8_t function_command) { if (!transaction_initialization()) return 0; transmit_uint8 (rom_command); return 1; } // transaction uint16_t read_temperature (const romcode_t *device_rom) { uint8_t scratchpad [9]; if (!transaction_initialization()) return 0xFFFF; transmit_uint8 (0x55); // Match ROM for (i=0; i < 8; ++i) transmit_uint8 (device_rom [8-i]); transmit_uint8 (0x44); // Convert T delay_msec (750); // delay until conversion has been finished transaction_initialization(); transmit_uint8 (0x55); // match ROM for (i=0; i < 8; ++i) transmit_uint8 (device_rom [8-i]); transmit_uint8 (0xBE); // read scratchpad for (i=0; i < 9; ++i) scratchpad [9-i] = receive_uint8(); // ??? verify checksum return scratchpad[1] << 8 | scratchpad[0]; } // read_temperature -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 17:23:48 2014 From: qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bill Thanis) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:23:48 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1389971870.3481.11.camel@tecumseth3> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D880FE.9060805@utoronto.ca> <1389923027.6306.3.camel@tecumseth3> <52D894A1.9000802@utoronto.ca> <1389971870.3481.11.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: You could open the file descriptor and use the select() call to wait on input. When I wrote multithreaded servers, I would use this with the non-blocking mode. In your case, you probably want to set a timeout on the select(). If the timeout occurs, you do something, if the FD is ready to be read you read it and do something else. I'll try to dig up the code tonight, but in my case this was - open the sockets (or any other file descriptor) - add the FD to the select() as read - call select() to wait. - when select ends. - check if it was a read opportunity. - if yes spawn a thread (or pass the read FD to a thread) to be read and do something with the data. - check if it was a timeout (because a timeout and a read opportunity can happen simultaneously, which I found out the hard way). - if yes do what you do on a timeout - go back to wait on select() I'm not sure this will help, but its my $0.02. Bill On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Mel Wilson wrote: > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 21:25 -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > > On 16/01/14 08:43 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > > [ ... ] > > I'm using a DS18B20 as well, hence that float rounding - it's supposed > > to be accurate to +/- 0.5C through most of it's range, but I've measured > > with other thermometers and it's close enough to 1/10th for my purposes. > > > > I've used it with an Ardunino as well with the Dallas 1-wire scanning > > library. Is that what you used? > > My apologies. I'm way too shambolic in running these projects. The > RHT03 temperature/humidity sensor (with its host of part-numbers) with > the Arduino is the setup I've got results from. My DS18B20 project is > still only prototype code that will be run on an AVR. Both of these > setups use bit-banged interfaces. > > You're working farther up the food chain than I am. > > Without actual results, just to post something, here's my initial > DS18B20 code (Some of those newlines are from the mail client. Can't > get them out): > > > //===================================== > #ifndef DS18B20_H > #define DS19B20 > > #include > > typedef uint8_t romcode_t [8]; > > extern void delay_msec (int msec); > extern void delay_usec (int usec); > > > void bus_setup (); > uint16_t read_temperature (romcode_t device_rom); > > #endif // DS18B20 > > > //===================================== > #include > #include "ds18b20.h" > > #define bit_set(F,B) (F |= (1<<(B))) > #define bit_clr(F,B) (F &= ~(1<<(B))) > #define bit_tst(F,B) (F & (1<<(B))) > #define bit_val(F,B) (bit_tst(F,B) != 0) > #define pin_clr(P) (bit_clr (P)) > #define pin_set(P) (bit_set (P)) > > #define BUS_OUTPUT_PIN PORTB,2 > #define BUS_INPUT_PIN PINB,2 > #define BUS_DDR_OUT (bit_set (DDRB,2)) > #define BUS_DDR_IN (bit_clr (DDRB,2)) > > > void bus_setup () > { > BUS_DDR_IN; > pin_clr (BUS_OUTPUT_PIN); > } // bus_setup > > > static void bus_low () > { > BUS_DDR_OUT; > } // bus_low > > static void bus_release () > { > BUS_DDR_IN; > } // bus_release > > static uint8_t bus_pin () > { > return bit_val (BUS_INPUT_PIN); > } // bus_pin > > static void master_write (uint8_t bit_val) > { > bus_low(); > if (bit_val) { // write "1" bit > delay_usec (2); > bus_release(); > delay_usec (58); > } > else { // write "0" bit > delay_usec (60); > bus_release(); > } > } // master_write > > static int master_read () > { > uint8_t val; > bus_low(); > delay_usec (1); > bus_release(); > delay_usec (14); > val = bus_pin(); > if (!val) // slave is driving bus pin low > delay_usec (45); > return val; > }// master_read > > static uint8_t transaction_initialization() > { > uint8_t delay_count; > uint8_t slave_present; > bus_low(); > delay_usec (480); // reset pulse > bus_release(); > while (!bus_pin()) ; > delay_usec (14); > slave_present = 0; > for (delay_count=0; delay_count < 240; ++delay_count) { > if (!bus_pin()) > slave_present = 1; > } > delay_usec (480 - 14 - delay_count); > return slave_present; > } // transaction_initialization > > static void transmit_uint8 (uint8_t data) > { > uint8_t i; > for (i=0; i < 8; ++i) { > master_write (data & 1); > data >>= 1; > } > } // transmit_uint8 > > static uint8_t receive_uint8 () > { > uint8_t i, val; > for (i=0; i < 8; ++i) > val = val | (bus_pin() << i); > } // receive_uint8 > > uint8_t transaction (uint8_t rom_command, uint8_t function_command) > { > if (!transaction_initialization()) > return 0; > transmit_uint8 (rom_command); > return 1; > } // transaction > > uint16_t read_temperature (const romcode_t *device_rom) > { > uint8_t scratchpad [9]; > if (!transaction_initialization()) > return 0xFFFF; > transmit_uint8 (0x55); // Match ROM > for (i=0; i < 8; ++i) > transmit_uint8 (device_rom [8-i]); > transmit_uint8 (0x44); // Convert T > delay_msec (750); // delay until conversion has been finished > transaction_initialization(); > > transmit_uint8 (0x55); // match ROM > for (i=0; i < 8; ++i) > transmit_uint8 (device_rom [8-i]); > > transmit_uint8 (0xBE); // read scratchpad > for (i=0; i < 9; ++i) > scratchpad [9-i] = receive_uint8(); > // ??? verify checksum > return scratchpad[1] << 8 | scratchpad[0]; > } // read_temperature > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 17:52:33 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:52:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D880FE.9060805@utoronto.ca> <1389923027.6306.3.camel@tecumseth3> <52D894A1.9000802@utoronto.ca> <1389971870.3481.11.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: | From: Mel Wilson | My DS18B20 project is | still only prototype code that will be run on an AVR. | | You're working farther up the food chain than I am. | From: Bill Thanis | You could open the file descriptor and use the select() call to wait on | input. [I have never tried to program an Arduino or other AVR system. So don't trust what I say.] The AVR is a modest embedded processor. The supplied runtime system likely doesn't provide pthreads or select calls or file descriptors. Of course you could build that yourself but it probably isn't the most direct way to solve problems of this scale. The Raspberry Pi usually runs Linux and Bill's ideas might apply. But I expect most access to the GPIO pins on the RP look more like AVR than higher-level Unix API. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 18:00:14 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:00:14 -0500 Subject: Linux: The clear choice for security - TechRepublic Message-ID: <52D96FAE.3010907@rogers.com> http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/linux-and-open-source/linux-the-clear-choice-for-security/#ftag=RSS56d97e7 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 18:04:31 2014 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:04:31 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D880FE.9060805@utoronto.ca> <1389923027.6306.3.camel@tecumseth3> <52D894A1.9000802@utoronto.ca> <1389971870.3481.11.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: <1389981871.4716.4.camel@tecumseth3> On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 12:52 -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Mel Wilson > | From: Bill Thanis [ ... ] > The Raspberry Pi usually runs Linux and Bill's ideas might apply. But > I expect most access to the GPIO pins on the RP look more like AVR > than higher-level Unix API. Yeah, I think Bill's reply was really meant for Jason directly, but no problem. AFAIK there's a thick layer of drivers between a RasPi application program and the GPIO pins. The code I've actually seen has used cat or echo to write text to magic files (under /dev , I think?) for the purpose of opening access to pins and sending and receiving bits on them. There's a lot there I still need to learn. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 18:20:55 2014 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:20:55 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <52D89767.8030605-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D88D41.9000209@ve3syb.ca> <52D89767.8030605@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <52D97487.7070505@ve3syb.ca> On 14-01-16 09:37 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 16/01/14 08:54 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: >> sscanf(&line[len-6], "%f", &raw_temp); > > Ah interesting, do I understand this correctly as: sscanf returns the > indicated 6 bytes of the contents of the string 'line' into the memory > address of the float raw_temp? The first parameter is the address where it will start scanning for something. The second parameter is the format of what it expects to find (in this case, a floating point number). The third parameter is the address of a variable where it will store the floating point number it reads from the memory pointed to by the first parameter. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 21:03:03 2014 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 16:03:03 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1389981871.4716.4.camel@tecumseth3> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D880FE.9060805@utoronto.ca> <1389923027.6306.3.camel@tecumseth3> <52D894A1.9000802@utoronto.ca> <1389971870.3481.11.camel@tecumseth3> <1389981871.4716.4.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: <52D99A87.9070505@ve3syb.ca> On 14-01-17 01:04 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > AFAIK there's a thick layer of drivers between a RasPi application > program and the GPIO pins. The size of the layer between a Pi program and the GPIO pins depends on the programming lanaguge you are using and how you choose to access the I/O pins. If I was programming in Python I could use the Python GPIO library. If I'm writing in C I can choose to directly access the GPIO pins. See: https://sites.google.com/site/semilleroadt/raspberry-pi-tutorials/gpio http://www.pieter-jan.com/node/15 http://www.airspayce.com/mikem/bcm2835/ -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 17 21:20:30 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 16:20:30 -0500 Subject: How to read a 1-wire sensor with C on a Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <52D99A87.9070505-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <52D87F9D.30804@utoronto.ca> <52D880FE.9060805@utoronto.ca> <1389923027.6306.3.camel@tecumseth3> <52D894A1.9000802@utoronto.ca> <1389971870.3481.11.camel@tecumseth3> <1389981871.4716.4.camel@tecumseth3> <52D99A87.9070505@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <52D99E9E.30503@utoronto.ca> On 17/01/14 04:03 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 14-01-17 01:04 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: >> AFAIK there's a thick layer of drivers between a RasPi application >> program and the GPIO pins. > > The size of the layer between a Pi program and the GPIO pins depends on > the programming lanaguge you are using and how you choose to access the > I/O pins. If I was programming in Python I could use the Python GPIO > library. If I'm writing in C I can choose to directly access the GPIO pins. > > See: > https://sites.google.com/site/semilleroadt/raspberry-pi-tutorials/gpio > http://www.pieter-jan.com/node/15 > http://www.airspayce.com/mikem/bcm2835/ I'm glad I decided to just read the device files directly as a first start! Wow, this stuff gets complicated pretty quickly, quite a large rabbit hole looming if I'm not careful. Thanks for all the feedback, I'm refactoring and trying other methods as suggested. Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 19 04:31:30 2014 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 23:31:30 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT Message-ID: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Wasn't aware of this video. Was wondering what others thought of Torvalds' opinionated view of different types of source control software ... ? http://youtu.be/idLyobOhtO4 Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 19 06:52:37 2014 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 22:52:37 -0800 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org> References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: He's right. :) There are corner cases where the file view is still better than content view, but for 99.9% of the cases out there, managing file content is much saner and far more powerful. If your project isn't absolutely massive (it's not) in terms of file/directory count, using something like subversion is not the right choice. I personally prefer git as it's a real power tool, but mercurial would also be a workable choice. Interestingly, it seems that git and mercurial are the only two real choices left in the dvcs field...all others seem to have fallen by the wayside. Thanks -Ben On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Paul King wrote: > Wasn't aware of this video. Was wondering what others thought of Torvalds' > opinionated view of different types of source control software ... ? > > http://youtu.be/idLyobOhtO4 > > Paul > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 19 07:46:41 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 02:46:41 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: You should check out PlasticSCM it makes GIT and Mercurial just seem out dated and underpowered, but that is for good reason, they make sure they take any good feature anyone has and grab it into their. Easiest SCM to use to boot. Works on Linux, Win, OSX, Unix's Its actually painful, because once you use it, and then inevitably you have to go back to git for something, because your into a project that uses it, and man its so depressing. Its gui pipes through command line (and accessible api) but the GUI is just sooooo nice. Can backend via mysql, etc. Don't go near it if you don't want to be blown away with pure SCM goodness. Also, I can't recall the argument, but GIT isn't a real dvcs like plastic is, but you will have to read their faq to understand their argument. Plastics really the only game in town. SVN is never the right choice. -tl On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Ben Walton wrote: > He's right. :) > > There are corner cases where the file view is still better than > content view, but for 99.9% of the cases out there, managing file > content is much saner and far more powerful. If your project isn't > absolutely massive (it's not) in terms of file/directory count, using > something like subversion is not the right choice. > > I personally prefer git as it's a real power tool, but mercurial would > also be a workable choice. Interestingly, it seems that git and > mercurial are the only two real choices left in the dvcs field...all > others seem to have fallen by the wayside. > > Thanks > -Ben > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Paul King wrote: > > Wasn't aware of this video. Was wondering what others thought of > Torvalds' > > opinionated view of different types of source control software ... ? > > > > http://youtu.be/idLyobOhtO4 > > > > Paul > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > -- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, > truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. > > -Christopher Hitchens > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 19 07:48:18 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 02:48:18 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: http://www.plasticscm.com/comparisons/index.html this is the total ass kicking it puts on the competition :) -tl On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 2:46 AM, ted leslie wrote: > You should check out PlasticSCM it makes GIT and Mercurial just seem out > dated and underpowered, but that is for good reason, they make sure they > take any good feature anyone has and grab it into their. Easiest SCM to use > to boot. > Works on Linux, Win, OSX, Unix's > Its actually painful, because once you use it, and then inevitably you > have to go back to git for something, > because your into a project that uses it, and man its so depressing. > Its gui pipes through command line (and accessible api) but the GUI is > just sooooo nice. Can backend via mysql, etc. > Don't go near it if you don't want to be blown away with pure SCM goodness. > Also, I can't recall the argument, but GIT isn't a real dvcs like plastic > is, but you will have to read their faq to understand their argument. > Plastics really the only game in town. > > SVN is never the right choice. > > -tl > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Ben Walton wrote: > >> He's right. :) >> >> There are corner cases where the file view is still better than >> content view, but for 99.9% of the cases out there, managing file >> content is much saner and far more powerful. If your project isn't >> absolutely massive (it's not) in terms of file/directory count, using >> something like subversion is not the right choice. >> >> I personally prefer git as it's a real power tool, but mercurial would >> also be a workable choice. Interestingly, it seems that git and >> mercurial are the only two real choices left in the dvcs field...all >> others seem to have fallen by the wayside. >> >> Thanks >> -Ben >> >> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Paul King wrote: >> > Wasn't aware of this video. Was wondering what others thought of >> Torvalds' >> > opinionated view of different types of source control software ... ? >> > >> > http://youtu.be/idLyobOhtO4 >> > >> > Paul >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> >> >> -- >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, >> truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. >> >> -Christopher Hitchens >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 19 14:37:05 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 09:37:05 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <52DBE311.9090307@gmail.com> On 14-01-19 02:48 AM, ted leslie wrote: > > http://www.plasticscm.com/comparisons/index.html > > this is the total ass kicking it puts on the competition :) http://www.plasticscm.com/pricing.html And this is the total ass kicking its competition gives it back. git and mercurial may have all the user-friendliness of a rabid wolverine, but you'll always be able to get your files and history back out, somehow. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 19 15:16:22 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 10:16:22 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: Well, seems like PlasticSCM has the same prohibitive problem as BitKeeper, which is that its proprietors may take their toys away at their will. Perhaps ok for a "corporate" project where there's vastly more risk of the company cancelling the project than of vendor rot, but utterly unacceptable for free software projects. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 19 17:34:11 2014 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 12:34:11 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: <52DBE311.9090307-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net>, , <52DBE311.9090307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52DC0C93.11292.15DE8B@sciguy.vex.net> Yeah, I guess I was wanting to start a discussion of "open source" source control software, not stuff you pay for. In my MIT project work (FAQ archive scripting right now), I use CVS, so I guess Torvalds would count me among people who should check themselves into a mental institution :-) I don't mind saying (out loud) that I don't mind CVS. But maybe the reason I don't mind is because my repositories consist of individual single scripts, written in Perl. For my next project, I will produce a T-Shirt saying "I have been abused by Linus Torvalds". :-p Before anyone gets too excited about what I do at MIT, it is volunteer work, and what I do plus a dollar will buy a doughnut at Timmies. I teach math in my day job. :-) Paul On 19 Jan 2014 at 9:37, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 14-01-19 02:48 AM, ted leslie wrote: > > > > http://www.plasticscm.com/comparisons/index.html > > > > this is the total ass kicking it puts on the competition :) > > http://www.plasticscm.com/pricing.html > > And this is the total ass kicking its competition gives it back. > > git and mercurial may have all the user-friendliness of a rabid > wolverine, but you'll always be able to get your files and history back > out, somehow. > > Stewart > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 19 18:02:33 2014 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 10:02:33 -0800 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:46 PM, ted leslie wrote: > You should check out PlasticSCM it makes GIT and Mercurial just seem out > dated and underpowered, but that is for good reason, they make sure they > take any good feature anyone has and grab it into their. Easiest SCM to use > to boot. > Works on Linux, Win, OSX, Unix's > Its actually painful, because once you use it, and then inevitably you have > to go back to git for something, > because your into a project that uses it, and man its so depressing. > Its gui pipes through command line (and accessible api) but the GUI is just > sooooo nice. Can backend via mysql, etc. > Don't go near it if you don't want to be blown away with pure SCM goodness. > Also, I can't recall the argument, but GIT isn't a real dvcs like plastic > is, but you will have to read their faq to understand their argument. I think it runs along the lines of "git is a content addressable filesystem with version control built on top." I'm not sure if that's entirely fair, but it's not unfair, either. It's pointing out that the powerful version control features rely on the underlying data storage format being very awesome, but as they were developed together, I don't think it's quite right to phrase it that way unless you're trying to make a specific point. > Plastics really the only game in town. > The licensing looks a little off-putting, if you ask me. BitKeeper all over again? > SVN is never the right choice. Fwiw, I complete agree here. > > -tl > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Ben Walton wrote: >> >> He's right. :) >> >> There are corner cases where the file view is still better than >> content view, but for 99.9% of the cases out there, managing file >> content is much saner and far more powerful. If your project isn't >> absolutely massive (it's not) in terms of file/directory count, using >> something like subversion is not the right choice. >> >> I personally prefer git as it's a real power tool, but mercurial would >> also be a workable choice. Interestingly, it seems that git and >> mercurial are the only two real choices left in the dvcs field...all >> others seem to have fallen by the wayside. >> >> Thanks >> -Ben >> >> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Paul King wrote: >> > Wasn't aware of this video. Was wondering what others thought of >> > Torvalds' >> > opinionated view of different types of source control software ... ? >> > >> > http://youtu.be/idLyobOhtO4 >> > >> > Paul >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> >> >> -- >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, >> truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. >> >> -Christopher Hitchens >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 20 00:54:41 2014 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:54:41 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: > Well, seems like PlasticSCM has the same prohibitive problem as BitKeeper, which is that its proprietors may take their toys away at their will. > > Perhaps ok for a "corporate" project where there's vastly more risk of the company cancelling the project than of vendor rot, but utterly unacceptable for free software projects. Plus, it seem like a Windows SCM. They say it has a weak support for Unix and OSX. Essentially, that to me imply you need to be on Windows platform. Now, I got curious by noticing it support both centralized development and distributed development, I thought this would be exclusive? How do they pull that? William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 20 02:43:50 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:43:50 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 7:54 PM, William Muriithi < william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > Well, seems like PlasticSCM has the same prohibitive problem as > BitKeeper, which is that its proprietors may take their toys away at their > will. > > > > Perhaps ok for a "corporate" project where there's vastly more risk of > the company cancelling the project than of vendor rot, but utterly > unacceptable for free software projects. > > Plus, it seem like a Windows SCM. They say it has a weak support for Unix > and OSX. Essentially, that to me imply you need to be on Windows platform. > I noticed that, yeah. They didn't really explain what "weak" meant in that context. > Now, I got curious by noticing it support both centralized development and > distributed development, I thought this would be exclusive? How do they > pull that? > I don't think that's too terribly hard. If you attach policy that requires that commits get some sort of approval in a central place, that imposes centralization. You can do that with Git by having commit hook scripts in a central place, for instance. That doesn't diminish that the model of Git supports distributed development. Perhaps they do similar. If the distributable bits only run on Windows, and you only have 1 Windows server in your environment, then that would effectively centralize things :-) -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 20 03:04:47 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 22:04:47 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: The servers certainly work well or superior with Linux, I would assume HP and other high end clients are at least back ending the Plastic on Linux. The client gui, I loved it because it worked on Linux, and I thought it was great, but gui aside, if you go down to CLI level, if one prefers, it would be the same across all platforms. I thought they would be using gtk# on all 3 platforms, so the client experience should be the same given its a linux/unix GUI, but they may have the win client being WPF, but then it is all supposed to be Mono, so that wouldn't make any sense. I like open source too, but even if Plastic stopped the free license for 10 users or whatever it is, I would be fine for 10-20 more years just using the last free version, unless there is some miracle advancements in merging. Then if someone did do a much better merge, that would be worth paying a bit for IMO. I would be surprised if they ever revoked the free, but maybe they could take it down to 2-3 person groups size. Of course if you have project that needs 10+ on it, then there would be a cost, but if their GIT client is good? I am going to test that out soon, as I have a project on GIT hub that I want to work with via a gui client. Maybe their GIT gui will make it so i don't care whats beneath as the SCM engine. -tl On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 7:54 PM, William Muriithi < > william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> >> > Well, seems like PlasticSCM has the same prohibitive problem as >> BitKeeper, which is that its proprietors may take their toys away at their >> will. >> > >> > Perhaps ok for a "corporate" project where there's vastly more risk of >> the company cancelling the project than of vendor rot, but utterly >> unacceptable for free software projects. >> >> Plus, it seem like a Windows SCM. They say it has a weak support for Unix >> and OSX. Essentially, that to me imply you need to be on Windows platform. >> > I noticed that, yeah. They didn't really explain what "weak" meant in > that context. > >> Now, I got curious by noticing it support both centralized development >> and distributed development, I thought this would be exclusive? How do >> they pull that? >> > I don't think that's too terribly hard. > > If you attach policy that requires that commits get some sort of approval > in a central place, that imposes centralization. You can do that with Git > by having commit hook scripts in a central place, for instance. That > doesn't diminish that the model of Git supports distributed development. > > Perhaps they do similar. > > If the distributable bits only run on Windows, and you only have 1 Windows > server in your environment, then that would effectively centralize things > :-) > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 20 18:01:21 2014 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 13:01:21 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: Well, the security thing is solved very nicely by gitolite, and the branch visualization is handled by a variety of tools like gitk. Git's also a decent standard -- for me it's the best choice. And the 'weak' support for Linux doesn't help matters. Alex On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 2:48 AM, ted leslie wrote: > http://www.plasticscm.com/comparisons/index.html > > this is the total ass kicking it puts on the competition :) > > -tl > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 2:46 AM, ted leslie wrote: > >> You should check out PlasticSCM it makes GIT and Mercurial just seem out >> dated and underpowered, but that is for good reason, they make sure they >> take any good feature anyone has and grab it into their. Easiest SCM to use >> to boot. >> Works on Linux, Win, OSX, Unix's >> Its actually painful, because once you use it, and then inevitably you >> have to go back to git for something, >> because your into a project that uses it, and man its so depressing. >> Its gui pipes through command line (and accessible api) but the GUI is >> just sooooo nice. Can backend via mysql, etc. >> Don't go near it if you don't want to be blown away with pure SCM >> goodness. >> Also, I can't recall the argument, but GIT isn't a real dvcs like plastic >> is, but you will have to read their faq to understand their argument. >> Plastics really the only game in town. >> >> SVN is never the right choice. >> >> -tl >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Ben Walton wrote: >> >>> He's right. :) >>> >>> There are corner cases where the file view is still better than >>> content view, but for 99.9% of the cases out there, managing file >>> content is much saner and far more powerful. If your project isn't >>> absolutely massive (it's not) in terms of file/directory count, using >>> something like subversion is not the right choice. >>> >>> I personally prefer git as it's a real power tool, but mercurial would >>> also be a workable choice. Interestingly, it seems that git and >>> mercurial are the only two real choices left in the dvcs field...all >>> others seem to have fallen by the wayside. >>> >>> Thanks >>> -Ben >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Paul King wrote: >>> > Wasn't aware of this video. Was wondering what others thought of >>> Torvalds' >>> > opinionated view of different types of source control software ... ? >>> > >>> > http://youtu.be/idLyobOhtO4 >>> > >>> > Paul >>> > -- >>> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, >>> truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. >>> >>> -Christopher Hitchens >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> > -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 20 18:17:30 2014 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:17:30 -0800 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 7:04 PM, ted leslie wrote: > The servers certainly work well or superior with Linux, I would assume HP > and other high end clients are at least back ending the Plastic on Linux. > The client gui, I loved it because it worked on Linux, and I thought it was > great, but gui aside, if you go down to CLI level, if one prefers, it would > be the same across all platforms. I thought they would be using gtk# on all > 3 platforms, so the client experience should be the same given its a > linux/unix GUI, but they may have the win client being WPF, but then it is > all supposed to be Mono, so that wouldn't make any sense. > I like open source too, but even if Plastic stopped the free license for 10 > users or whatever it is, I would be fine for 10-20 more years just using the > last free version, unless there is some miracle advancements in merging. > Then if someone did do a much better merge, that would be worth paying a bit > for IMO. I'd be surprised if it is still runnable without a containerized OS in that time window. 10-20 years in this game is an eternity... > I would be surprised if they ever revoked the free, but maybe they could > take it down to 2-3 person groups size. Of course if you have project that > needs 10+ on it, then there would be a cost, but if their GIT client is > good? I am going to test that out soon, as I have a project on GIT hub that > I want to work with via a gui client. Maybe their GIT gui will make it so i > don't care whats beneath as the SCM engine. > > -tl > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Christopher Browne > wrote: >> >> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 7:54 PM, William Muriithi >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> > Well, seems like PlasticSCM has the same prohibitive problem as >>> > BitKeeper, which is that its proprietors may take their toys away at their >>> > will. >>> > >>> > Perhaps ok for a "corporate" project where there's vastly more risk of >>> > the company cancelling the project than of vendor rot, but utterly >>> > unacceptable for free software projects. >>> >>> Plus, it seem like a Windows SCM. They say it has a weak support for Unix >>> and OSX. Essentially, that to me imply you need to be on Windows platform. >> >> I noticed that, yeah. They didn't really explain what "weak" meant in >> that context. >>> >>> Now, I got curious by noticing it support both centralized development >>> and distributed development, I thought this would be exclusive? How do they >>> pull that? >> >> I don't think that's too terribly hard. >> >> If you attach policy that requires that commits get some sort of approval >> in a central place, that imposes centralization. You can do that with Git >> by having commit hook scripts in a central place, for instance. That >> doesn't diminish that the model of Git supports distributed development. >> >> Perhaps they do similar. >> >> If the distributable bits only run on Windows, and you only have 1 Windows >> server in your environment, then that would effectively centralize things >> :-) >> -- >> When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the >> question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 20 19:01:56 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:01:56 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Ben Walton wrote: > I'd be surprised if it is still runnable without a containerized OS in > that time window. 10-20 years in this game is an eternity... > > Indeed. The "good" news is that, as a system deployed late enough in time that we already have "containerization", it's plausible to containerize it so that you could indeed keep it running for a goodly long period of time. In contrast, consider the ancient Wingz spreadsheet http://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/apps/financial/spreadsheet/Wingz-142.tgz Binaries are still available, from 1996. But getting it to run on a modern system may require a decent dose of near-unobtainable libraries. (Needs some pretty old libc and Xlib.) 1996 is rather less than 20 years ago. It would be an entertaining exercise to see what's needed to get Wingz running on a modern AMD64-based Linux system. I expect it's possible. In contrast, if PlasticSCM uses GTK, then you need to maintain present (probably past; whatever version they linked against from last year or the year before) libraries for GTK, which, as it is an evolving library/framework, and that'll pretty quickly become un-runnable. I have a copy around somewhere of the "Corel WordPerfect Suite for Linux;" that has assorted oddball dependencies on WINE, glibc (of particular version), and such, and I'll bet nobody could readily get the binaries running unless they have an exactly suitable InfoMagic CD set from the 1990s :-). The policies for PlasticSCM seem troublesome too; it may be fine for an uninteresting open source project with only a couple of users/developers, but if that project became of broader interest, you likely couldn't use PlasticSCM. (indeed, efforts to do reverse engineering due to kernel developers that were *forbidden* to use BitKeeper due to their work on competing software are *precisely* the flammables that led to permission to use it being taken away from the Linux kernel.) -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 20 20:01:14 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:01:14 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <20140120200114.GR17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:52:37PM -0800, Ben Walton wrote: > He's right. :) > > There are corner cases where the file view is still better than > content view, but for 99.9% of the cases out there, managing file > content is much saner and far more powerful. If your project isn't > absolutely massive (it's not) in terms of file/directory count, using > something like subversion is not the right choice. > > I personally prefer git as it's a real power tool, but mercurial would > also be a workable choice. Interestingly, it seems that git and > mercurial are the only two real choices left in the dvcs field...all > others seem to have fallen by the wayside. Yes he is right. CVS was a disaster, and subversion is too for trying to fix CVS. Some people think bazaar is an option, but I don't particularly like it. git seems most common, with mercurial certainly a good choice too. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 20 23:00:31 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 18:00:31 -0500 Subject: Does KDE really suck this much? In-Reply-To: <52BD9346.3080700-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <10008_1387930652_rBP0HWhI013818_CAN_Dec-n4BesXeT73w65BbRku98mTGb4kE0unpJaq_vGNeJA1A@mail.gmail.com> <52BA25CF.2010309@utoronto.ca> <52BD9346.3080700@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <52DDAA8F.6070608@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jason wrote: > I use terminator & tmux extensively through the day for various > tasks. I had ignored this thread until yesterday, when I found myself with three workspaces each with four terminal windows. I think I'm going to like terminator. Just installing guake now, and I'll see what it can do for me. - --Bob. On 13-12-27 09:48 AM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 27/12/13 03:54 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> | From: Jamon Camisso >> >> | Yakuake is indispensable in any desktop environent - it isn't a >> KDE | specific app, it works better than in Gnome or others. >> >> I'd never ehard of this before. Or the Gnome equivalent, Guake. >> >> So I read a bit about them and don't see why I'd want them. >> >> It's true that switching to terminal windows is a bit awkward by >> default. But I'd really hate having only one. In my world, I >> have lots, each with task-based lifetimes (not nested or any >> other simple relationship). >> >> Can you expain how it works for you? We might learn something. > > I use terminator & tmux extensively through the day for various > tasks. I'll have one pane open for work chat/mail, a few for > remote servers/poring over logs, and 3-5 others depending on what > I'm doing. Terminator supports custom layouts and you can invoke it > with a specified layout on startup. > > For example: terminator -l four -p dark > > This starts my four pane layout with the dark colour & font > profile, which I use on my laptop. Specifying config, layout, and > profile lets you mix and match as you choose depending on the > task. > > I use the same ~/.config/terminator/config on my laptop and > desktop, so depending on where I'm working, I can have 4 or 6 > terminals open with the same profile. Very handy IMO. > > Which is all a long winded way of getting at Yakuake. For those one > off moments of just needing a quick terminal and don't want to mess > with desktop window tiling, arrangement, covering etc., they're > brilliantly handy. > > Say you want to do a quick bit of math, fire up bc, or you want to > run a local program or what have you. The extra hidden terminal is > unobtrusive on my main desktop layout for those little one off > tasks. > > Hit F12 and a terminal is there, run whatever is needed, and > another F12 and it's hidden again. > > Give them a try. I have Yakauke setup to run on login via KDE's > session autorun preferences, so the thing is just there all the > time. > > Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLdqo0ACgkQuRKJsNLM5eo0fgCeN9vVKQIixP7njOwVyLtvAWK+ +jEAoP3R+pI3fTBb3MrNvZZpM7Hvv3bj =dtUv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 00:52:50 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 19:52:50 -0500 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <52DDC4E2.5030904@gmail.com> On 14-01-20 02:01 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > > ? I'll bet nobody could readily get the > binaries running unless they have an exactly suitable InfoMagic CD set > from the 1990s :-). Only half-jokingly: has someone maintained an archive of these? Because if you did have to resurrect mid-90s software, they would be excellent archival sources. I'm not saying there are many people who'd need to run an a.out-based Linux (kernel version < 1.2, for those lucky enough not to remember this transition), but those who need it would need it a lot. Software rots terribly, and takes data with it: the model spreadsheets for my MSc thesis are in an unreadable form, and it's from 1993. The thesis itself is fine, in LaTeX. The good thing is, it was barely worth reading in '93, so it's no loss. On the other hand, a friend makes decent money developing data workflows that rely on IBM VMs. He processes modern data through hoary old (but tested, and long ago paid-for) COBOL routines. His costs are so low per job that his group routinely undercuts huge offshore IT companies. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 02:17:23 2014 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 21:17:23 -0500 Subject: Rescue software RAID system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Evening, I am curious if someone has gone through this, I have a centos 6 system with the operating system running on RAID 1 (software based). Sometimes over weekend, one of the drive failed. That exposed a mistake I did when setting up the RAID. It looks like grub is pointed to one of the disk, which unfortunately happen to be the broken one. I have tried a bit of things that don't seem to work. My biggest hope was to repoint grub from hd0 to hd1. I did that from the grub prompt and didn't work. Seem to still be poking the dead drive instead of the good pair. So I booted from a rescue CD, used mdadmin to start RAID device, mounted the device and tried to chroot into the mount directory and don't work, don't seem to have chroot binary in my rescue environment. Will give it another try tomorrow but can someone see a problem with this approach? Or rather, how did you guys approach it? Any advice would be highly appreciated. Regards, William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 02:56:49 2014 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 18:56:49 -0800 Subject: Rescue software RAID system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 6:17 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Evening, > > I am curious if someone has gone through this, I have a centos 6 system with > the operating system running on RAID 1 (software based). > > Sometimes over weekend, one of the drive failed. That exposed a mistake I > did when setting up the RAID. It looks like grub is pointed to one of the > disk, which unfortunately happen to be the broken one. > > I have tried a bit of things that don't seem to work. My biggest hope was to > repoint grub from hd0 to hd1. I did that from the grub prompt and didn't > work. Seem to still be poking the dead drive instead of the good pair. > > So I booted from a rescue CD, used mdadmin to start RAID device, mounted the > device and tried to chroot into the mount directory and don't work, don't > seem to have chroot binary in my rescue environment. If this is the centos rescue environment, it definitely should include chroot. The approach you're taking seems fine to me. I've done this in the past. Also, in the unfortunate event that you have problems during the rebuild, be aware that unless the first failed disk is completely fubared, you may be able to use some of its data if required. Hopefully not, but keep it in mind. Thanks -Ben -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 03:10:09 2014 From: qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bill Thanis) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 22:10:09 -0500 Subject: Rescue software RAID system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check grub2-install You are probably looking for the --target or --directory options. Bill On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:17 PM, William Muriithi < william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Evening, > > I am curious if someone has gone through this, I have a centos 6 system > with the operating system running on RAID 1 (software based). > > Sometimes over weekend, one of the drive failed. That exposed a mistake I > did when setting up the RAID. It looks like grub is pointed to one of the > disk, which unfortunately happen to be the broken one. > > I have tried a bit of things that don't seem to work. My biggest hope was > to repoint grub from hd0 to hd1. I did that from the grub prompt and didn't > work. Seem to still be poking the dead drive instead of the good pair. > > So I booted from a rescue CD, used mdadmin to start RAID device, mounted > the device and tried to chroot into the mount directory and don't work, > don't seem to have chroot binary in my rescue environment. > > Will give it another try tomorrow but can someone see a problem with this > approach? Or rather, how did you guys approach it? > > Any advice would be highly appreciated. > > Regards, > William > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 04:07:44 2014 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 20:07:44 -0800 Subject: Linus Torvalds discussing source control programs and GIT In-Reply-To: References: <52DB5522.12178.1705BBD@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Ben Walton wrote: >> >> I'd be surprised if it is still runnable without a containerized OS in >> that time window. 10-20 years in this game is an eternity... >> > > Indeed. The "good" news is that, as a system deployed late enough in time > that we already have "containerization", it's plausible to containerize it > so that you could indeed keep it running for a goodly long period of time. I think it's also important to distinguish the difference between runable and usable. Being able to run it doesn't mean you can use it with other people. It might be good for inspecting the history of an old project, but if you need to fire up some ancient version of windows (or whatever) to run it, that makes it pretty tough to collaborate with other people. They'd look at you like you asked them to use CVS. :) Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 06:56:21 2014 From: teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 01:56:21 -0500 Subject: Rescue software RAID system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52DE1A15.4090206@gmail.com> I agree. Try and get grub installed onto the working drive without messing up the partitioning. I would copy out the data first or work from a mirror of the working drive first. Teddy Bill Thanis wrote: > Check grub2-install > > You are probably looking for the --target or --directory > options. > > Bill > > > > On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:17 PM, William Muriithi > > wrote: > > Evening, > > I am curious if someone has gone through this, I have a centos 6 > system with the operating system running on RAID 1 (software based). > > Sometimes over weekend, one of the drive failed. That exposed a > mistake I did when setting up the RAID. It looks like grub is > pointed to one of the disk, which unfortunately happen to be the > broken one. > > I have tried a bit of things that don't seem to work. My biggest > hope was to repoint grub from hd0 to hd1. I did that from the grub > prompt and didn't work. Seem to still be poking the dead drive > instead of the good pair. > > So I booted from a rescue CD, used mdadmin to start RAID device, > mounted the device and tried to chroot into the mount directory and > don't work, don't seem to have chroot binary in my rescue environment. > > Will give it another try tomorrow but can someone see a problem with > this approach? Or rather, how did you guys approach it? > > Any advice would be highly appreciated. > > Regards, > William > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 16:12:52 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:12:52 -0500 Subject: Does KDE really suck this much? In-Reply-To: <52DDAA8F.6070608-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <10008_1387930652_rBP0HWhI013818_CAN_Dec-n4BesXeT73w65BbRku98mTGb4kE0unpJaq_vGNeJA1A@mail.gmail.com> <52BA25CF.2010309@utoronto.ca> <52BD9346.3080700@utoronto.ca> <52DDAA8F.6070608@sobac.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > I had ignored this thread until yesterday, when I found myself with > three workspaces each with four terminal windows. > > I think I'm going to like terminator. Just installing guake now, and > I'll see what it can do for me. > I was a longtime user of gnu screen, but discovered tmux 6 months ago or so and haven't looked back. I should check out terminator. Does anyone know what the key differences are between them? With my current workspace setup (on KDE, if it matters), I have one terminal window stickied to all of my desktops. I separate my browser windows by desktop, and have my terminal work separated into tmux sessions. Works great for me. > - --Bob. > > > > On 13-12-27 09:48 AM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > > On 27/12/13 03:54 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >> | From: Jamon Camisso > >> > >> | Yakuake is indispensable in any desktop environent - it isn't a > >> KDE | specific app, it works better than in Gnome or others. > >> > >> I'd never ehard of this before. Or the Gnome equivalent, Guake. > >> > >> So I read a bit about them and don't see why I'd want them. > >> > >> It's true that switching to terminal windows is a bit awkward by > >> default. But I'd really hate having only one. In my world, I > >> have lots, each with task-based lifetimes (not nested or any > >> other simple relationship). > >> > >> Can you expain how it works for you? We might learn something. > > > > I use terminator & tmux extensively through the day for various > > tasks. I'll have one pane open for work chat/mail, a few for > > remote servers/poring over logs, and 3-5 others depending on what > > I'm doing. Terminator supports custom layouts and you can invoke it > > with a specified layout on startup. > > > > For example: terminator -l four -p dark > > > > This starts my four pane layout with the dark colour & font > > profile, which I use on my laptop. Specifying config, layout, and > > profile lets you mix and match as you choose depending on the > > task. > > > > I use the same ~/.config/terminator/config on my laptop and > > desktop, so depending on where I'm working, I can have 4 or 6 > > terminals open with the same profile. Very handy IMO. > > > > Which is all a long winded way of getting at Yakuake. For those one > > off moments of just needing a quick terminal and don't want to mess > > with desktop window tiling, arrangement, covering etc., they're > > brilliantly handy. > > > > Say you want to do a quick bit of math, fire up bc, or you want to > > run a local program or what have you. The extra hidden terminal is > > unobtrusive on my main desktop layout for those little one off > > tasks. > > > > Hit F12 and a terminal is there, run whatever is needed, and > > another F12 and it's hidden again. > > > > Give them a try. I have Yakauke setup to run on login via KDE's > > session autorun preferences, so the thing is just there all the > > time. > > > > Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: > > http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text > > below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: > > http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability > > iEYEARECAAYFAlLdqo0ACgkQuRKJsNLM5eo0fgCeN9vVKQIixP7njOwVyLtvAWK+ > +jEAoP3R+pI3fTBb3MrNvZZpM7Hvv3bj > =dtUv > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 16:21:07 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:21:07 -0500 Subject: screen vs. tmux - WAS: Does KDE etc. Message-ID: On 21 January 2014 11:12, Matt Seburn wrote: > I was a longtime user of gnu screen, but discovered tmux 6 months ago or > so and haven't looked back. I should check out terminator. Does anyone > know what the key differences are between them? > > With my current workspace setup (on KDE, if it matters), I have one > terminal window stickied to all of my desktops. I separate my browser > windows by desktop, and have my terminal work separated into tmux > sessions. Works great for me. > As a basic user of screen, I find that there are a couple small but annoying things I cannot do in tmux (and I couldn't even tell you what now as I haven't used tmux in a while - renaming sessions maybe, something else as well) that I can in screen. So, while I think tmux is probably "the way forward," I'm wondering what would motivate a long-time screen user to move from one to the other. I guess I'm hoping you'll tell us the good about using tmux and I'll finally make the move and stick with it ... Thanks. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 16:27:12 2014 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:27:12 -0500 Subject: screen vs. tmux - WAS: Does KDE etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140121162712.GA97570@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> I missed most of this thread too. Have folks looked at tiling window managers? They eliminate the need for manual window layout. Using dwm (there are others) I don't need Terminator. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 16:31:52 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:31:52 -0500 Subject: screen vs. tmux - WAS: Does KDE etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52DEA0F8.1090608@utoronto.ca> On 21/01/14 11:21 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > On 21 January 2014 11:12, Matt Seburn wrote: > As a basic user of screen, I find that there are a couple small but > annoying things I cannot do in tmux (and I couldn't even tell you what now > as I haven't used tmux in a while - renaming sessions maybe, something else > as well) that I can in screen. So, while I think tmux is probably "the way > forward," I'm wondering what would motivate a long-time screen user to move > from one to the other. I guess I'm hoping you'll tell us the good about > using tmux and I'll finally make the move and stick with it ... Sharing a tmux is easy, splitting windows is easy, and resizing is simple and works with arrow keys. I'm sure you can do all those things in screen, but in all my years of using it I never figured it out. Whereas with tmux in a week I was able to do all those things and the devs at work love using it collaboratively. Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 16:34:49 2014 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 08:34:49 -0800 Subject: screen vs. tmux - WAS: Does KDE etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2014 8:21 AM, "Giles Orr" wrote: > > On 21 January 2014 11:12, Matt Seburn wrote: >> >> I was a longtime user of gnu screen, but discovered tmux 6 months ago or so and haven't looked back. I should check out terminator. Does anyone know what the key differences are between them? >> >> With my current workspace setup (on KDE, if it matters), I have one terminal window stickied to all of my desktops. I separate my browser windows by desktop, and have my terminal work separated into tmux sessions. Works great for me. > > > As a basic user of screen, I find that there are a couple small but annoying things I cannot do in tmux (and I couldn't even tell you what now as I haven't used tmux in a while - renaming sessions maybe, something else as well) that I can in screen. So, while I think tmux is probably "the way forward," I'm wondering what would motivate a long-time screen user to move from one to the other. I guess I'm hoping you'll tell us the good about using tmux and I'll finally make the move and stick with it ... Scriptability is light years more advanced in tmux. It also sports a nice MVC model which makes working with and reasoning about it easier. I switched after years of screen use and haven't looked back or missed anything from screen. My shell auto attaches to an always running session when I open a terminal locally or ssh in. My emacs client is wired up to find my emacs pane, flip to it and then back when I terminate the client. I have several handy hotkeys for man page browsing, etc. Some of those were cumbersome our always subtlety broken in screen... Thanks -Ben > > Thanks. > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 16:35:29 2014 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:35:29 -0500 Subject: Does KDE really suck this much? In-Reply-To: References: <10008_1387930652_rBP0HWhI013818_CAN_Dec-n4BesXeT73w65BbRku98mTGb4kE0unpJaq_vGNeJA1A@mail.gmail.com> <52BA25CF.2010309@utoronto.ca> <52BD9346.3080700@utoronto.ca> <52DDAA8F.6070608@sobac.com> Message-ID: <52DEA1D1.8080403@utoronto.ca> On 21/01/14 11:12 AM, Matt Seburn wrote: > On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > >> I had ignored this thread until yesterday, when I found myself with >> three workspaces each with four terminal windows. >> >> I think I'm going to like terminator. Just installing guake now, and >> I'll see what it can do for me. >> > > I was a longtime user of gnu screen, but discovered tmux 6 months ago or so > and haven't looked back. I should check out terminator. Does anyone know > what the key differences are between them? > > With my current workspace setup (on KDE, if it matters), I have one > terminal window stickied to all of my desktops. I separate my browser > windows by desktop, and have my terminal work separated into tmux > sessions. Works great for me. Terminator shines with profiles and layouts. I use a 4 or 6 pane layout, and connect to remote tmux sessions inside some and not others. Each terminal can be set to execute something on start up. So I fire up emacs in terminal one, attach to my local irssi tmux in two, mutt in another, and the 4th-6th are free for whatever task I'm working on. Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 16:36:26 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:36:26 -0500 Subject: screen vs. tmux - WAS: Does KDE etc. In-Reply-To: <20140121162712.GA97570-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20140121162712.GA97570@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > I missed most of this thread too. Have folks looked at tiling window > managers? They eliminate the need for manual window layout. Using dwm > (there are others) I don't need Terminator. > I love tiling window managers, and used ratpoison for years. It's basically gnu screen for all your windows. I switched to KDE because I had never really used the full environment my distro (Slackware) provides and wanted to see what I was missing out on. And, I was also getting sick of having random small frames for things like Skype, alsamixer and wicd, which would all be in a taskbar in a DE. > -- > Neil Watson > Linux/UNIX Consultant > http://watson-wilson.ca > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 17:01:40 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:01:40 -0500 Subject: screen vs. tmux - WAS: Does KDE etc. In-Reply-To: <20140121162712.GA97570-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20140121162712.GA97570@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20140121170140.GS17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 11:27:12AM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > I missed most of this thread too. Have folks looked at tiling window > managers? They eliminate the need for manual window layout. Using dwm > (there are others) I don't need Terminator. Sure they eliminate it by doing it wrong for you all the time. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 17:03:02 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:03:02 -0500 Subject: screen vs. tmux - WAS: Does KDE etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > On 21 January 2014 11:12, Matt Seburn wrote: > >> I was a longtime user of gnu screen, but discovered tmux 6 months ago or >> so and haven't looked back. I should check out terminator. Does anyone >> know what the key differences are between them? >> >> With my current workspace setup (on KDE, if it matters), I have one >> terminal window stickied to all of my desktops. I separate my browser >> windows by desktop, and have my terminal work separated into tmux >> sessions. Works great for me. >> > > As a basic user of screen, I find that there are a couple small but > annoying things I cannot do in tmux (and I couldn't even tell you what now > as I haven't used tmux in a while - renaming sessions maybe, something else > as well) that I can in screen. So, while I think tmux is probably "the way > forward," I'm wondering what would motivate a long-time screen user to move > from one to the other. I guess I'm hoping you'll tell us the good about > using tmux and I'll finally make the move and stick with it ... > I'm actually having difficulty imagining what could be easier with screen than tmux. The only thing I've found even moderately irritating is that its concept of windows and panes is slightly different than screen. When you split a window into panes, it creates a new shell prompt, rather than pulling one of the windows you already have into the new pane. So, for example, if you've got windows 1 through 5 in a session, and want to split your screen so that you can view windows 1 and 3 side by side, and *don't'* want to create a new prompt... well, I don't know if there's a way to do that. As someone who used ratpoison for a long time, I got used to thinking of the windows as existing in this amorphous pile "behind" my screen, and the frames as the thing I actually manage. Creating a new frame (splitting the screen) has no impact on the windows, it just gives you a new place to put them. So, the tmux way of doing this is a little counter-intuitive to me. Incidentally, to rename a tmux session, use "rename-session " at the tmux command prompt. > Thanks. > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 21:07:27 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:07:27 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140112004821.GA15127-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20140121210727.GT17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 07:48:21PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > "Hyperthreading" isn't all it's cracked up to be. In theory it's > supposed to help a lot, in practice it can actually slow down a machine, > as you've seen. In theory is could help, and in theory it could hurt. In practice that is true too. It is NOT expected to help in general if your two threads are doing the same kind of thing since then they will usually be trying to use the same execution units in the CPU. A thread doing integer work at the same time as one doing floating point work is probably the best case. Also the P4 was terribly designed, and really not equiped to handle extra instructions at a time anyhow. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 21:08:52 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:08:52 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 09:28:38PM -0500, Mel Wilson wrote: > Or worse. The system here is an MSI motherboard G41M-P26. From the day > I got it, under load (large compiles, for instance), it would eventually > lock up. ISTR I needed to cycle power to get it down. Resource monitor > would show "both" processors pinned at 100%. When I'd hunted the web > and found out what Hyperthreading was, and turned it off, the machine > got stable, and has been ever since. Code that dead locks because the coder didn't know how to do multithreading properly is not hyperthreading's fault. Hyperthreading just makes it MUCH easier to hit such a deadlock if the code is wrong to begin with. Any multi processor system would increase the chances of hitting such bugs. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 21:26:24 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:26:24 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140121210852.GU17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Is there a difference between hyperthreading and multithreading? (Not a snark -- I really don't know, and would like to...) - --Bob On 14-01-21 04:08 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 09:28:38PM -0500, Mel Wilson wrote: >> Or worse. The system here is an MSI motherboard G41M-P26. From >> the day I got it, under load (large compiles, for instance), it >> would eventually lock up. ISTR I needed to cycle power to get it >> down. Resource monitor would show "both" processors pinned at >> 100%. When I'd hunted the web and found out what Hyperthreading >> was, and turned it off, the machine got stable, and has been ever >> since. > > Code that dead locks because the coder didn't know how to do > multithreading properly is not hyperthreading's fault. > Hyperthreading just makes it MUCH easier to hit such a deadlock if > the code is wrong to begin with. Any multi processor system would > increase the chances of hitting such bugs. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLe5f0ACgkQuRKJsNLM5eqgwwCg8Fe9dQ3TgNj1QLJlpyfD5gEz 6YUAnRjr6zDiNbrHg5sW2zgQ69dtFYHg =0Rgu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 21:31:52 2014 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:31:52 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140121210852.GU17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1390339912.6042.2.camel@tecumseth3> On Tue, 2014-01-21 at 16:08 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 09:28:38PM -0500, Mel Wilson wrote: > > Or worse. The system here is an MSI motherboard G41M-P26. From the day > > I got it, under load (large compiles, for instance), it would eventually > > lock up. ISTR I needed to cycle power to get it down. Resource monitor > > would show "both" processors pinned at 100%. When I'd hunted the web > > and found out what Hyperthreading was, and turned it off, the machine > > got stable, and has been ever since. > > Code that dead locks because the coder didn't know how to do > multithreading properly is not hyperthreading's fault. Hyperthreading > just makes it MUCH easier to hit such a deadlock if the code is wrong > to begin with. Any multi processor system would increase the chances > of hitting such bugs. I wasn't really worried about fault, just getting a gcc build of my bignum-embedded library to go to completion. That couldn't happen then, and now with hyperthreading turned of in the BIOS options, the system is totally smooth and satisfactory. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 21:40:08 2014 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:40:08 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <52DEE600.2050408-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> Message-ID: <1390340408.6197.2.camel@tecumseth3> On Tue, 2014-01-21 at 16:26 -0500, Bob Jonkman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Is there a difference between hyperthreading and multithreading? > > (Not a snark -- I really don't know, and would like to...) AFAIK hyperthreading is a hardware option in some Intel processors that lets a single processor emulate a dual-processor-pair. So that it would let you get some of the advantages of multiprocessing without two actual cores. Lennart can probably say it more precisely. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 21:49:15 2014 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:49:15 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >It has been years since I built a kernel -- there rarely seems to be a > >need. > > This is my first one. Simply wanted to see if I can build a kernel to > match and fit my hardware, the documentation says that can make things > lighter and faster ? > > >I recommend that you start with clean source, without your patch, and > >try building. It will likely be a learning experience. > Understood and will comply and yes very much a learning process here :-) > > >Only patch after you have perfected building and installing. > Understood again,, > > >I infer from previous posts that you are using Ubuntu. Ubuntu has its > >own packaged kernels and hence its own protocol for building a kernel. > >Try > >(1) starting from one of their kernel source packages, and > >(2) using their official method of building the kernel. > > I have a soft spot for Ubuntu because I cut my teeth on Karmic But am > looking at Cent-OS, Fedora also Backtrack( Kali) and Slackware. Slackware > one needs advanced know-how and knowledge to configure which am yet to > attain, not for newbies I felt. So am not chained to ubuntu am open to > alternatives... just thought knowing the kernel compiling and build process > will help later to tweak things so I have a system that is fast. > Slackware is definitely not for command-line-adverse newbies, but if you're not afraid of getting your hands dirty I think you'd find it to be fairly simple to use. It's also lightweight, and very stable. And, the community (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/) is friendly and helpful as well. If you do go that route, feel free to ping me for questions. I've been using it for a few years and have probably run into most of the newbie issues by now. > >That should minimize the chance of problems. > Many thank's Hugh for all the pointers :-) > > > -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > *Aruna Hewapathirane* > Consultant/Trainer > Phone : 647-709-9269 > Website: Open Source Solutions > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 22:42:07 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 17:42:07 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <52DEE600.2050408-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> Message-ID: <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 04:26:24PM -0500, Bob Jonkman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Is there a difference between hyperthreading and multithreading? > > (Not a snark -- I really don't know, and would like to...) Hyperthreading is one way to give you multiple hardware threads. Actual seperate cores is another way. To software there is no difference between a CPU core and a CPU thread. Every core has at least one hardware thread. Hyperthreading gives each core 2 threads (in all current implementations). power6 has 2 threads per core of SMT, and power7 has 4 threads per core. power8 is likely to have 8 threads per core. Multithreading is multiple threads in a process. Every process has at least one thread (if it has more than the first one, then it is a multithreaded program). The system runs one thread on one CPU at any given time, so a multithreaded program could be using multiple cores at once, or at least multiple hardware threads on a core. The hardware threads share some resources, such as execution units, but do not share CPU registers. Each CPU core on the other hand is independant (in general. AMD's newer chips is starting the share the FPU between two cores in interesting ways, without sharing anything else). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 23:04:26 2014 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:04:26 -0500 Subject: TLUG list archive? Message-ID: Is there a complete TLUG mailing list archive? The one at gmane returns errors for many messages. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 23:36:38 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:36:38 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140121224207.GV17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <52DF0486.4050201@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thanx, Len. > Multithreading is multiple threads in a process. Every process > has at least one thread Even a single, 1-core processor can run multi-threaded code, can't it? I imagine by the OS timeslicing. The Amiga was the computer I saw where someone pointed out the pitfalls of multi-threading, and I'm sure that didn't have multi-core. But I expect that code that runs multi-threaded on a 1-core processor would run better on a multi-core processor. How much code tweaking is necessary for a multi-threaded program to take advantage of multiple cores? Or does the compiler take care of that? - --Bob. On 14-01-21 05:42 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 04:26:24PM -0500, Bob Jonkman wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> >> Is there a difference between hyperthreading and multithreading? >> >> (Not a snark -- I really don't know, and would like to...) > > Hyperthreading is one way to give you multiple hardware threads. > Actual seperate cores is another way. To software there is no > difference between a CPU core and a CPU thread. Every core has at > least one hardware thread. Hyperthreading gives each core 2 > threads (in all current implementations). power6 has 2 threads per > core of SMT, and power7 has 4 threads per core. power8 is likely > to have 8 threads per core. > > Multithreading is multiple threads in a process. Every process > has at least one thread (if it has more than the first one, then it > is a multithreaded program). The system runs one thread on one CPU > at any given time, so a multithreaded program could be using > multiple cores at once, or at least multiple hardware threads on a > core. > > The hardware threads share some resources, such as execution > units, but do not share CPU registers. Each CPU core on the other > hand is independant (in general. AMD's newer chips is starting the > share the FPU between two cores in interesting ways, without > sharing anything else). > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLfBIEACgkQuRKJsNLM5erEDQCfYycJJe9wxLT3JcCikUf3eWuc awsAn0oAe3dvGxIWxSOM2A0fVtqla2X8 =B+hW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 21 23:57:54 2014 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:57:54 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <52DEE600.2050408-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 4:26 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Is there a difference between hyperthreading and multithreading? > > (Not a snark -- I really don't know, and would like to...) > No snark taken; it's kind of old technology now, but it still quite allows it to be new to someone :-) The notion is that on Intel's fancy modern multicore CPUs, there's enough parallelizable circuitry hiding out there that it might just be worthwhile to have the CPU pretend to be multiple cores, because it may have enough parallel hiding amongst the arrays of gazillions of transistors to make it conceivably worthwhile to let "the CPU" pretend to be several cores even though it's truly just one. It's not just Intel that offers it; they did so on various series of CPUs including pretty old stuff (I recall some PAE-based Dell servers where we shut it off), Itanium (which is rather not the same as the other Intel stuff), as well as IBM POWER Series (e.g. - PowerPC). There has been a fair bit of controversy as to whether there are actually benefits to be had by trying to harness hyperthreading. We found on Postgres servers that it was preferable to generally turn it off. (Mind you, Postgres is decidedly not a multithreaded application, so there's some intuition to suggest using HT would be pretty pessimal...) -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 02:37:28 2014 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:37:28 -0500 Subject: Voynich Manuscript Update... Message-ID: For those who attended and enjoyed William Porquet GTALug talk on the Voynich Manuscript there has been a development of sorts : http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1689897 In summary, some of the plants shown in the manuscript are considered to be definitively of New World (well current day Mexican) origin. So, one more wrinkle to a complex mystery... Colin. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 03:09:21 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:09:21 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Matt Seburn wrote: > On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < > aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> >It has been years since I built a kernel -- there rarely seems to be a >> >need. >> >> This is my first one. Simply wanted to see if I can build a kernel to >> match and fit my hardware, the documentation says that can make things >> lighter and faster ? >> >> >I recommend that you start with clean source, without your patch, and >> >try building. It will likely be a learning experience. >> Understood and will comply and yes very much a learning process here :-) >> >> >Only patch after you have perfected building and installing. >> Understood again,, >> >> >I infer from previous posts that you are using Ubuntu. Ubuntu has its >> >own packaged kernels and hence its own protocol for building a kernel. >> >Try >> >(1) starting from one of their kernel source packages, and >> >(2) using their official method of building the kernel. >> >> I have a soft spot for Ubuntu because I cut my teeth on Karmic But am >> looking at Cent-OS, Fedora also Backtrack( Kali) and Slackware. Slackware >> one needs advanced know-how and knowledge to configure which am yet to >> attain, not for newbies I felt. So am not chained to ubuntu am open to >> alternatives... just thought knowing the kernel compiling and build process >> will help later to tweak things so I have a system that is fast. >> > > Slackware is definitely not for command-line-adverse newbies, but if > you're not afraid of getting your hands dirty I think you'd find it to be > fairly simple to use. It's also lightweight, and very stable. And, the > community (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/) is > friendly and helpful as well. > > If you do go that route, feel free to ping me for questions. I've been > using it for a few years and have probably run into most of the newbie > issues by now. > > >> >That should minimize the chance of problems. >> Many thank's Hugh for all the pointers :-) >> >> >> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> *Aruna Hewapathirane* >> Consultant/Trainer >> Phone : 647-709-9269 >> Website: Open Source Solutions >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 03:14:13 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:14:13 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My apologies for the earlier blank email, have no idea what the hell happened - Oops sorry ! >Slackware is definitely not for command-line-adverse newbies, So I have been told many times :) >but if you're not afraid of getting your hands dirty I think you'd >find it to be fairly simple to use. Most what I know was self taught and learnt the hard way by getting my hands dirty so am good with that :-) >It's also lightweight, and very >stable. And, the community ( http://www.linuxquestions.>org/questions/slackware-14/) is >friendly and helpful as well. Thank you for the link.. >If you do go that route, feel free to ping me for questions. I've been using it for a few years and have probably run into most >of the newbie issues by now. Thank's again Matt will definitely do so... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 03:25:53 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:25:53 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu Message-ID: I was testing window managers and having a hard time comparing each due to constantly having to log-off and sign back in as another user with a different window manager and then something sweet happened. I came across a article and now I am flipping back and forth between virtual terminals that have gnome-classic, LXDE, Openbox and Awesome and it's amazing. The article is here: http://www.doknowevil.net/2010/10/13/multiple-x-desktop-sessions-in-ubuntu/ and for those of us who are lazy the content is right below, seriously you should try this it blew me away :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This post has a lot to do with graphics but there are no graphics. It?s a walk-through explanation and and proof of concept of some very interesting features of Linux as a desktop operating system. If you aren?t familiar with X, than this webpage might confuse you, the X Window System is what draws the GUI (graphical user interface) for Ubuntu. On top of this, you may have a Window Manager or Desktop Environment , such as Gnome (Ubuntu default) or KDE (Kubuntu). When you boot up Ubuntu, it creates a set of ?virtual terminals?. These VTs are accessible via a key combination of clt+alt+f1-12. VT7 (ctrl+alt+f7) is the default and it handles X?s ?screen 0?. If you play around, with the key combination, you?ll notice you drop into consoles with a login prompt (f1-6) or a blank screen (f8-f12, don?t worry if you see USB errors). These virtual terminals used to be handled by X which was slower and more prone to crash (citation needed) but since Ubuntu 8.04, this has been handled by ?Kernel Mode? , where this management is handled by the kernel. You can switch to another virtual terminal and create another X session. Typically in Linux, you could switch to another VT, login [as another user] and type $ *startx ? :1* (special argument ?--? marks the end of client arguments and the beginning of server options, :1 defines screen 1). This will work in Ubuntu but the part where I found it failing was switching between this newly created X session and back to my original :0 on VT7. The way I found to do this in Ubuntu seems a bit counter-intuitive. Before I explain, you should create a new user, if you don?t have another already. You can do this by going to System > Administration > Users and Groups. To create a second X session in Ubuntu, go to your logout menu (default top right) and select ?switch user?, and login as another user (you don?t want to create an error in the user environment). When you login as another user, Ubuntu creates a screen :1 on VT8. This means, you can change back to VT7 with ctrl+alt+f7, then back to VT8 with ctrl+alt+f8. I *suspect* this is the reason VT8-12 show up as blank screens instead of login terminals. Ubuntu seems to be leveraging the power of virtual terminals for ?user switches?. I haven?t noticed much in performance loss doing this and the other big question is practicality. Why would you ever do this? Perhaps you are testing software and want isolated test cases or you want a dedicated user for games with a more streamlined window manager and want to be able to flip back and forth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 06:41:27 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:41:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140121224207.GV17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | The hardware threads share some resources, such as execution units, | but do not share CPU registers. Each CPU core on the other hand is | independant (in general. AMD's newer chips is starting the share the | FPU between two cores in interesting ways, without sharing anything else). It all depends on what your computing bottleneck is. For example, hyperthreading can be quite good at hiding memory latency: while one hyperthread is waiting for a memory fetch, another hyperthread can be using the CPU's resources. This was used to great effect in the Sun Niagara. If your bottleneck is the Floating Point Unit, and that unit is shared between hyperthreads, there is no improvement. If all threads are competing for memory bandwidth, it is quite possible that hyperthreading could make the memory access patterns worse. I know that the Pentium 4 hyperthreading often made performance worse. I never heard why. It could have been badly implemented. This claims to be an answer: . That seems odd since it claims that the problem (uselessly tied up execution resources) is in just the case that hyperthreading should be best (if the resources hadn't been tied up). (Reading more Wikipedia. They point out that the generic (non-Intel) name is . They also claim Niagara isn't SMT, but I don't see an important difference.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 07:18:29 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 02:18:29 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: *Bit of a read but truly helped me to understand Hyperthreading vs Multi-threading vs Super Threading, may help others so sharing : * Hyper-threading is using one processor but logically dividing it into two so that it gives the user the benefit of two processors with only using the resources equivalent to almost one. This is achieved by sharing, partitioning and duplicating the various resources almost into two processors. Used by the latest Pentium processors, which are HT enabled, in layman's terms, it allows you to use more than two applications at the same time without slowing down processing speed. Multi-threading is when various processes are time sliced such that it gives the user the impression that all the programs are being run at the same time. This is what happens on your computer regularly. Super-threading allows threads from different processes to be executed at the same time unlike Multi-threading where every process has a time slot during which, thread from only one process will be executed. But every time, if for example, there are four instructions issued to the processor. They will all be from the same process. Hyper-threading takes it a step further. It allows threads from different processes to be issued at the same time, in turn, utilizing the waste cycles of the processor. You can go to any Intel site for further info on this. Another answer: Super-threading is a multithreading approach that weaves together the execution of different threads on a single processor without truly executing them at the same time. This qualifies it as time-sliced or temporal multithreading rather than simultaneous multithreading. It is motivated by the observation that the processor is occasionally left idle while executing an instruction from one thread. Super-threading seeks to make use of unused processor cycles by applying them to the execution of an instruction from another thread. Multithreading computers have hardware support to efficiently execute multiple threads. These are distinguished from multiprocessing systems (such as multi-core systems) in that the threads have to share the resources of single core: the computing units, the CPU caches and the translation lookaside buffer (TLB). Where multiprocessing systems include multiple complete processing units, multithreading aims to increase utilization of a single core by leveraging thread-level as well as instruction-level parallelism. As the two techniques are complementary, they are sometimes combined in systems with multiple multithreading CPUs and in CPUs with multiple multithreading cores. Hyper-threading is Intel's trademarked term for its simultaneous multithreading implementation in their Pentium 4, Atom, Core i7, and certain Xeon CPUs. Hyper-threading (officially termed Hyper-Threading Technology or HTT) is an Intel-proprietary technology used to improve parallelization of computations (doing multiple tasks at once) performed on PC microprocessors. A processor with hyper-threading enabled is treated by the operating system as two processors instead of one. This means that only one processor is physically present but the operating system sees two virtual processors, and shares the workload between them. *Hyper-threading requires both operating system and CPU support for efficient usage; conventional multiprocessor support is not enough, and may actually decrease performance if the Operating System is not sufficiently aware of the distinction between a physical core and a HTT-enabled core.* For example, Intel does not recommend that physical core and a HTT-enabled core. For example, Intel does not recommend that hyper-threading be enabled under Windows 2000, even though the operating system supports multiple CPUs (but is not HTT-aware). Original article/slides here : http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_hyper-threading_multi-threading_and_super-threading_in_computer_processors?#slide=1 Aruna -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 12:26:05 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:26:05 -0500 Subject: Hard Drive Endurance Message-ID: "Which hard drive to buy" has come up a couple times on this list: http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/01/21/2232235/who-makes-the-best-hard-disk-drives The original article, if you want to bypass Slashdot: http://blog.backblaze.com/2014/01/21/what-hard-drive-should-i-buy/ Backblaze buys the cheapest model of HD they can find, but they use them by the thousands. The stats they generate are of course for their specific use case, but it's interesting. The short version: Seagate: Bad, Western Digital: OK, Hitachi: Good (others: not enough data). I've favoured WD, so I may need to rethink that. Definitely interesting. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 14:25:59 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:25:59 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <52DF0486.4050201-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DF0486.4050201@sobac.com> Message-ID: <20140122142559.GW17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 06:36:38PM -0500, Bob Jonkman wrote: > Even a single, 1-core processor can run multi-threaded code, can't it? > I imagine by the OS timeslicing. The Amiga was the computer I saw > where someone pointed out the pitfalls of multi-threading, and I'm > sure that didn't have multi-core. But I expect that code that runs > multi-threaded on a 1-core processor would run better on a multi-core > processor. Sure. The system selects among all the runnable threads and distributes them among the available CPUs. The amiga was one of the first consumer systems to have preemptive multitasking (that means the OS decides when to switch between threads. Windows 95 and up and all the Windows NT line work this way, as does OS/2, and of course all the unix style systems), rather then cooporative multitasking (where the application decides when to stop running and let another task have a chance to run. Windows 1 through 3.11 worked this way, as did Mac OS until they switched to the unixish nextstep based Mac OS X). The big pitfall on the Amiga was actually that it had no memory protection at all, so it had to way to isolate applications from each other. This means a bad pointer in one program could actually just as easily corrupt memory in another program as in itself. Amazingly it was very stable so apparently amiga application developers were extremely careful. The multitasking was not really the issue. Multitasking simply means an OS that is capable of running more than one thread at a time. So not DOS for example. > How much code tweaking is necessary for a multi-threaded program to > take advantage of multiple cores? Or does the compiler take care of that? The OS takes care of that. The compiler has nothing to do with it. Now there have certainly been things that did their own threading inside the application, in which case to the OS it would actually look like a single threaded process, in which case the OS can't help you and you do not get to use more than one CPU. That doesn't really seem to be done anymore now that pretty much every OS supports threading in the native C library, and in the case of all the unix style systems, they all support the standard posix thread interface, which makes the code fairly easy to make portable (except of course to windows, which does things in a completely different way). Of course sometimes people did things without threads to make the code simpler, or avoid portability issues, such as apache, which traditionally simply forks a new copy of itself for each connection, rather than use threads in one process to handle them. Part of it is that it runs on practically every OS, and a standard threading model doesn't always exist, and also when using apache modules, sometimes things have bugs and can break, or a module uses a library that isn't thread safe (meaning the library has functions that can't be called multiple times at once due to keeping internal state, or globab variables in the library), so by using a new copy each time you avoid those issues. For good measure apache tends to have the copy commit suicide after handling a certain number of requests, just in case anything got corrupted, so that any problems don't hang around too long. There certainly exists threaded versions of the apache server, but many of the modules explicitly don't work with it. OK, that seems long enough already. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 14:44:42 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:44:42 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140122144442.GX17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 01:41:27AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > It all depends on what your computing bottleneck is. > > For example, hyperthreading can be quite good at hiding memory > latency: while one hyperthread is waiting for a memory fetch, another > hyperthread can be using the CPU's resources. > > This was used to great effect in the Sun Niagara. > > If your bottleneck is the Floating Point Unit, and that unit is shared > between hyperthreads, there is no improvement. > > If all threads are competing for memory bandwidth, it is quite > possible that hyperthreading could make the memory access patterns > worse. Exactly. There are cases you can think of where it helps, and cases where it hurts. So in theory it could do either, and in practice it does either. > I know that the Pentium 4 hyperthreading often made performance worse. > I never heard why. It could have been badly implemented. This claims > to be an answer: . That > seems odd since it claims that the problem (uselessly tied up > execution resources) is in just the case that hyperthreading should be > best (if the resources hadn't been tied up). The instruction decoder is too small on the P4. There is only one (shared between the two threads), and it can only decode one x86 instruction into microops per clock cycle. So unless your code is already decoded in an the L1 trace cache, you can't start more than one instruction per clock cycle for the core. So only one of the two threads can start anything on that clock cycle. As far as I recall up to 3 instructions from the trace cache can be started in one clock cycle. There are 3 integer units, 2 floating point units and 2 memory units in total. Even before intel added hyperthreading, the instruction decoder was a bottleneck on a lot of code. Only code with fairly small tight loops that could run out of the L1 cache would really have a chance to get full speed, and even then, only if the branch predictor didn't make a mistake (given the cost of the pipeline flush on the P4's extremently long pipeline, which was between 20 and 31 stages depending on the generation of the P4). It was a very good branch predictor, but it can still be wrong. > (Reading more Wikipedia. They point out that the generic (non-Intel) > name is . > They also claim Niagara isn't SMT, but I don't see an important > difference.) Yes, the niagara (which I have never cared to look into very much), seems to be trying to essentially do a round robin between threads that have instructions to run, which can certainly help hide memory stalls and such. So essentialyl it ends up doing very fast switching between threads, without the overhead of doing a context switch, because it does have the duplicated register sets of an SMT design, but where SMT can issue instructions from multiple threads at once, the niagara can only issue one instruction each clock and simply takes turns from the threads. Nice and simple, and for some work loads would very likely work quite well. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 14:47:58 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:47:58 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140122144758.GY17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 02:18:29AM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > *Bit of a read but truly helped me to understand Hyperthreading vs > Multi-threading vs Super Threading, may help others so sharing : * > > Hyper-threading is using one processor but logically dividing it into two > so that it gives the user the benefit of two processors with only using the > resources equivalent to almost one. > > This is achieved by sharing, partitioning and duplicating the various > resources almost into two processors. Used by the latest Pentium > processors, which are HT enabled, in layman's terms, it allows you to use > more than two applications > at the same time without slowing down processing speed. > > Multi-threading is when various processes are time sliced such that it > gives the user the impression that all the programs are being run at the > same time. This is what happens on your computer regularly. No that is multi tasking. Multi threading is when one process has multiple exutable states in it that can be run at the same time (each thread has it's own stack, and cpu register state), > Super-threading allows threads from different processes to be executed at > the same time unlike Multi-threading where every process has a time slot > during which, thread from only one process will be executed. But every > time, if for example, there are four instructions issued to the processor. > They will all be from the same process. Hyper-threading takes it a step > further. It allows threads from different processes to be issued at the > same time, in turn, utilizing the waste cycles of the processor. You can go > to any Intel site for further info on this. > > Another answer: Super-threading is a multithreading approach that weaves > together the execution of different threads on a single processor without > truly executing them at the same time. This qualifies it as time-sliced or > temporal multithreading rather than simultaneous multithreading. So that's what Sun must have called the niagara. Never heard the term super-treading before. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 14:50:14 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:50:14 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140122144758.GY17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140122144758.GY17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140122145014.GZ17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 09:47:58AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 02:18:29AM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > > *Bit of a read but truly helped me to understand Hyperthreading vs > > Multi-threading vs Super Threading, may help others so sharing : * > > > > Hyper-threading is using one processor but logically dividing it into two > > so that it gives the user the benefit of two processors with only using the > > resources equivalent to almost one. > > > > This is achieved by sharing, partitioning and duplicating the various > > resources almost into two processors. Used by the latest Pentium > > processors, which are HT enabled, in layman's terms, it allows you to use > > more than two applications > > at the same time without slowing down processing speed. > > > > Multi-threading is when various processes are time sliced such that it > > gives the user the impression that all the programs are being run at the > > same time. This is what happens on your computer regularly. > > No that is multi tasking. Multi threading is when one process has > multiple exutable states in it that can be run at the same time (each > thread has it's own stack, and cpu register state), Actually it becomes a terminology problem. Different places and people use the terms differently. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 14:51:25 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:51:25 -0500 Subject: Hard Drive Endurance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140122145125.GA17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 07:26:05AM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > "Which hard drive to buy" has come up a couple times on this list: > > http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/01/21/2232235/who-makes-the-best-hard-disk-drives > > The original article, if you want to bypass Slashdot: > > http://blog.backblaze.com/2014/01/21/what-hard-drive-should-i-buy/ > > Backblaze buys the cheapest model of HD they can find, but they use them by > the thousands. The stats they generate are of course for their specific > use case, but it's interesting. The short version: Seagate: Bad, Western > Digital: OK, Hitachi: Good (others: not enough data). I've favoured WD, so > I may need to rethink that. Definitely interesting. The IBM deskstar still worries me, which may be why I never have given Hitachi a chance. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 14:55:32 2014 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:55:32 -0500 Subject: TLUG list archive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is a backup archive on GitHub: < https://github.com/avolkov/TLUG-Gmane-backup> (by Alex Volkov) but it hasn't been updated since April 23, 2013. On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > Is there a complete TLUG mailing list archive? The one at gmane > returns errors for many messages. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Myles Braithwaite | http://mylesb.ca/e -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 16:02:21 2014 From: tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org (Todd Howe) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:02:21 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140122160221.GA11905@signaltonoise.ca> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 10:25:53PM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > I was testing window managers and having a hard time comparing each due to > constantly having to log-off and sign back in as another user with a > different window manager and then something sweet happened. I came across a > article and now I am flipping back and forth between virtual terminals that > have gnome-classic, LXDE, Openbox and Awesome and it's amazing. > > The article is here: > http://www.doknowevil.net/2010/10/13/multiple-x-desktop-sessions-in-ubuntu/ > and for those of us who are lazy the content is right below, seriously you > should try this it blew me away :) > Hi Aruna; That was quite interesting, thanks. If you happen to see which DEs support a context-menu, or similarly quick option for mounting samba shares during the course of your investigations, could you share that info as well? Unity seems to be getting worse and not better with each Ubuntu point release on my Precise installs, breaking compositing across various kinds of hardware and I'm in a holding pattern with Unity 2D until I can find a better replacement (ideally, a DE with semantic search as well). I tried Cinnamon, but one disadvantage that I saw was no quick native way to mount my shares. Thanks; -- -____ Todd Howe ____________________ tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org ___________- -____ GPG: public key id E8BCABA7__ IM: tehowe on twitter, jabber ____- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 490 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 16:02:59 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:02:59 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21 January 2014 22:25, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > I was testing window managers and having a hard time comparing each due to > constantly having to log-off and sign back in as another user with a > different window manager and then something sweet happened. I came across a > article and now I am flipping back and forth between virtual terminals that > have gnome-classic, LXDE, Openbox and Awesome and it's amazing. > > The article is here: > http://www.doknowevil.net/2010/10/13/multiple-x-desktop-sessions-in-ubuntu/ > and for those of us who are lazy the content is right below, seriously > you should try this it blew me away :) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This post has a lot to do with graphics but there are no graphics. It?s a > walk-through explanation and and proof of concept of some very interesting > features of Linux as a desktop operating system. > > If you aren?t familiar with X, than this webpage might confuse you, > the X Window System is > what draws the GUI (graphical user interface) for Ubuntu. On top of this, > you may have a Window Manager or Desktop Environment , > such as Gnome (Ubuntu default) or KDE (Kubuntu). > > When you boot up Ubuntu, it creates a set of ?virtual terminals?. These > VTs are accessible via a key combination of clt+alt+f1-12. VT7 > (ctrl+alt+f7) is the default and it handles X?s ?screen 0?. If you play > around, with the key combination, you?ll notice you drop into consoles with > a login prompt (f1-6) or a blank screen (f8-f12, don?t worry if you see > USB errors ). > > > These virtual terminals used to be handled by X which was slower and more > prone to crash (citation needed) but since Ubuntu 8.04, this has been > handled by ?Kernel Mode? , > where this management is handled by the kernel. You can switch to another > virtual terminal and create another X session. > > Typically in Linux, you could switch to another VT, login [as another > user] and type $ *startx ? :1* (special argument ?--? marks the end of > client arguments and the beginning of server options, :1 defines screen 1). > This will work in Ubuntu but the part where I found it failing was > switching between this newly created X session and back to my original :0 > on VT7. > > The way I found to do this in Ubuntu seems a bit counter-intuitive. Before > I explain, you should create a new user, if you don?t have another already. > You can do this by going to System > Administration > Users and Groups. > > To create a second X session in Ubuntu, go to your logout menu (default > top right) and select ?switch user?, and login as another user (you don?t > want to create an error in the user environment). When you login as another > user, Ubuntu creates a screen :1 on VT8. This means, you can change back to > VT7 with ctrl+alt+f7, then back to VT8 with ctrl+alt+f8. I *suspect* this > is the reason VT8-12 show up as blank screens instead of login terminals. > Ubuntu seems to be leveraging the power of virtual terminals for ?user > switches?. > > I haven?t noticed much in performance loss doing this and the other big > question is practicality. Why would you ever do this? Perhaps you are > testing software and want isolated test cases or you want a dedicated user > for games with a more streamlined window manager and want to be able to > flip back and forth. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I've spent a lot of time working with a variety of window managers, and the method described in the article works well. It's also good if you want to run different WMs at different resolutions. You can also use Xnest or Xephyr (if you can get them running), to test WMs - it's essentially an X server inside a window in your window manager. But that can be problematic as the parent window manager traps keys that would otherwise be passed to the child window manager, so there are limitations. Contrary to Lennart's dislike of tiling window managers, I'm actually a pretty big fan - although usually only on netbooks and smallish laptops, where "use the whole screen for one window and don't ask me about arrangement" actually makes sense. I mention this because Xephyr and a tiling window manager offers an interesting solution for running multi-window applications like the GIMP that don't play well with tiling window managers: run most of your applications as usual in the tiling window manager, but run a lightweight "normal" WM (fluxbox, icewm, jwm ... there are lots of choices) in Xephyr, and run the GIMP in Xephyr. It works, although it's still subject to the key-combo trapping I mentioned earlier. But it'll work well if you use the Xephyrized WM as mouse only. And a touch of self promotion (directly related to the subject at hand): "The Window Manager Report," http://www.gilesorr.com/wm/ , which includes a comprehensive (correct me if I'm wrong!) list of Window Managers. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From do.ming.lum-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 17:27:44 2014 From: do.ming.lum-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Do-Ming Lum) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:27:44 -0500 Subject: Hard Drive Endurance In-Reply-To: <20140122145125.GA17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140122145125.GA17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Agreed. Every IBM or Hitachi drive I have ever owned failed. Admittedly not a very large sample because I have mostly stuck with Seagate and WD. The Seagate stats are worrying, though. On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 07:26:05AM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > > "Which hard drive to buy" has come up a couple times on this list: > > > > > http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/01/21/2232235/who-makes-the-best-hard-disk-drives > > > > The original article, if you want to bypass Slashdot: > > > > http://blog.backblaze.com/2014/01/21/what-hard-drive-should-i-buy/ > > > > Backblaze buys the cheapest model of HD they can find, but they use them > by > > the thousands. The stats they generate are of course for their specific > > use case, but it's interesting. The short version: Seagate: Bad, Western > > Digital: OK, Hitachi: Good (others: not enough data). I've favoured WD, > so > > I may need to rethink that. Definitely interesting. > > The IBM deskstar still worries me, which may be why I never have given > Hitachi a chance. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 19:37:55 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:37:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Aruna Hewapathirane | *Bit of a read but truly helped me to understand Hyperthreading vs | Multi-threading vs Super Threading, may help others so sharing : * I found that very confusing, and I understood the subject before reading it. The term "thread" in hardware is not the same as "thread" in software. A thread in hardware is just the execution of a process (which might involve execution of a software thread). A "thread" in software is just a process that shares a lot of resources with other threads. Software view: Unix Process: essentially a running program. Remember, you can have multiple instances of the running program, assuming it is written to not have multiple instances trip over each other. This "trip over each other" criterion is actually very important. Old style Unix programs did that pretty well. The only issue was global resources, for example a wired-in file that might be written to. Unfortunately, most GUI programs to have global resources that they don't share well: config files, caches, and who knows what else. When you try to run multiple copies of Firefox, it discovers this and actually only runs the one copy, with multiple windows. Windows programs (of which I know little) seem to be like GUI programs: they are not very good at having multiple instances NOT stepping on each other. Unix processes can only share a few things accidentally (files), and they are fairly easy to get straight. Threads are different. Traditionally, multiple threads within the same program share almost everything. For example, memory and hence most variables. So instances very easily step on each other. It takes a lot of care to design a program with threads that is both efficient and not buggy. It's not a great paradigm and I avoid it like the plague. Multiprogramming / multi-tasking: a property of an operating system (OS) that allows multiple processes to run at (roughly) the same time. All modern OSes do that, but it wasn't always so. Hardware view: Multiprocessor: hardware with multiple CPUs. It takes work to make an OS support it, but Linux got that support about 20 years ago. Windows has it too. Unix and OSX have supported it for quite a while. To properly written user software, it is a non-issue because all that happens is that the OS can let multiple process run and exactly the same time, which is more or less indistinguishable from (roughly) the same time. An OS might do a better job if it knows that certain paths between pairs of processors have different costs (eg. NUMA, shared caches, ...). For example, an OS scheduler probably tries to restart a process on the same processor on which it ran the last time in the hope that the cache retains relevant data. Multicore: a multiprocessor that has several CPUs on the same chip. >From a software view, indistinguishable from Multiprocessor. HyperThreaded (HT): Intel's trademark(?) for Simultaneous Multi-Threaded (SMT). It has probably displaced SMT as a term. Simultaneous Multi-Threaded: implement multi-core, but with a lot of shared hardware resources. These hardware resources are expensive. By design, this sharing is invisible to software, except for performance. SMT can opportunistically keep the hardware usefully employed when work on one process is "stalled" (eg. due to a memory fetch). How can this go wrong (apart from bogus implementation)? One way is that things like the L1 cache are likely shared and therefore less effective for each "processor". Since the OS can switch a processor between processes when progress on the first is delays (multitasking), why is SMT useful? Because multitasking and SMT operate on quite different time scales. Process switching takes many microseconds and involves storing and restoring a lot of state (eg. registers), taking many OS instructions. SMT switching is all done by hardware and takes just a few machine cycles, less than the time to access a single memory location. But SMT requires that the hardware have duplicate resources for holding exactly that state. Multitasking is good for exploiting hardware that would otherwise be idle while waiting for I/O. SMT is good for exploiting hardware that would be idle while awaiting a memory fetch. Summary: as a programmer, you don't need to care about Multicore, HT, SMT. Except that you need to remember that processors are not getting faster, they are getting wider. If you don't parallelize your software stack, you are not getting all the CPU crunch out of your hardware. If CPU isn't a bottleneck, then this matters not at all. Don't write multi-threaded programs without a great deal of forethought. There are ways of exploiting multiprocessing that are easy: - lots of independent programs can be run at the same time - lots of copies of the same program can be run (as long as it is polite about sharing global resources) - you can write programs in a language which doesn't force the programmer to explicitly deal with threads (eg. Erlang). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 20:11:34 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:11:34 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/21/2014 10:25 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > I was testing window managers and having a hard time comparing each > due to constantly having to log-off and sign back in as another user > with a different window manager and then something sweet happened. I > came across a article and now I am flipping back and forth between > virtual terminals that have gnome-classic, LXDE, Openbox and Awesome > and it's amazing. > > The article is here: > http://www.doknowevil.net/2010/10/13/multiple-x-desktop-sessions-in-ubuntu/ > and for those of us who are lazy the content is right below, seriously > you should try this it blew me away :) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This post has a lot to do with graphics but there are no graphics. > It?s a walk-through explanation and and proof of concept of some very > interesting features of Linux as a desktop operating system. > > If you aren?t familiar with X, than this webpage might confuse you > , the X Window System > is what draws the GUI > (graphical user interface) for Ubuntu. On top of this, you may have a > Window Manager or Desktop Environment , such as > Gnome (Ubuntu default) or KDE (Kubuntu). > > When you boot up Ubuntu, it creates a set of ?virtual terminals?. > These VTs are accessible via a key combination of clt+alt+f1-12. VT7 > (ctrl+alt+f7) is the default and it handles X?s ?screen 0?. If you > play around, with the key combination, you?ll notice you drop into > consoles with a login prompt (f1-6) or a blank screen (f8-f12, don?t > worry if you see USB errors > ). > > These virtual terminals used to be handled by X which was slower and > more prone to crash (citation needed) but since Ubuntu 8.04, this has > been handled by ?Kernel Mode? > , where this management > is handled by the kernel. You can switch to another virtual terminal > and create another X session. > > Typically in Linux, you could switch to another VT, login [as another > user] and type $ *startx ? :1* (special argument ?|--|? marks the end > of client arguments and the beginning of server options, :1 defines > screen 1). This will work in Ubuntu but the part where I found it > failing was switching between this newly created X session and back to > my original :0 on VT7. > > The way I found to do this in Ubuntu seems a bit counter-intuitive. > Before I explain, you should create a new user, if you don?t have > another already. You can do this by going to System > Administration > > Users and Groups. > > To create a second X session in Ubuntu, go to your logout menu > (default top right) and select ?switch user?, and login as another > user (you don?t want to create an error in the user environment). When > you login as another user, Ubuntu creates a screen :1 on VT8. This > means, you can change back to VT7 with ctrl+alt+f7, then back to VT8 > with ctrl+alt+f8. I /suspect/ this is the reason VT8-12 show up as > blank screens instead of login terminals. Ubuntu seems to be > leveraging the power of virtual terminals for ?user switches?. > > I haven?t noticed much in performance loss doing this and the other > big question is practicality. Why would you ever do this? Perhaps you > are testing software and want isolated test cases or you want a > dedicated user for games with a more streamlined window manager and > want to be able to flip back and forth. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We use this method at home daily for one simple task. My wife and I each have our own profile the first one to log on gets VT7, the next gets VT8. She switches to her profile using 'switch user', my prederence is ctrl+alt+f7/8. One annoyance that I have with a similar task in Ubuntu, and maybe it's only on my machine, is that logging out of one user will result in a black blank screen that cannot be released, even with ctrl+alt+backspace or ctrl+alt+delete. Whenever more than one user is logged on, we have to leave them on until it's time to shut down. The above problem does not seem to occur on my mother-in-law's machine using Ubuntu, or even in this one when using a different distro. John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 20:21:38 2014 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:21:38 -0500 Subject: A favour for Unix Unanimous Message-ID: Unix Unanimous is another local user group that deals in all sorts of Unix and Unix like OSs (in other words Linux, the BSDs and the commercial Unixes (such as Solaris, etc). In other words this is a Linux related (but not purely Linux) related note. Starting in March, Unix Unanimous will need a new home, and we are looking for help in finding that home. In summary, Unix Unanimous meets on the 2nd Wednesday of each month, in a round the room discussion format. Bring your Unix / Unix related questions and the group will try to come up with answer for you. A typical meeting will have 15-20 fans of Unix so a room that could accommodate about 25+ people would be great. In terms of "special" equipment the group does normally uses a whiteboard or blackboard to keep notes on during the meeting. The groups doe not charge a membership fee, so free (as in dollars) is a priority. Beyond that good TTC transit access would also be nice. Anyone who could be of help or could point us to someone who could help that would be very much appreciated. Thanks. Colin McGregor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 20:47:26 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:47:26 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20140122160221.GA11905-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg@public.gmane.org> References: <20140122160221.GA11905@signaltonoise.ca> Message-ID: >Hi Aruna; >That was quite interesting, thanks. If you happen to see which DEs support a >context-menu, or similarly quick option for mounting samba shares during the >course of your investigations, could you share that info as well? Hey Todd, have a look at Gnome Commander ? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1791306 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1169149 If your a gnome classic lover like me Mate is very good too :) >Unity seems to be getting worse and not better with each Ubuntu point release on my Precise >installs, breaking compositing across various kinds of hardware and I'm in a >holding pattern with Unity 2D until I can find a better replacement (ideally, >a DE with semantic search as well). I tried Cinnamon, but one disadvantage that >I saw was no quick native way to mount my shares. Unity has it's good points but does not work for me. It's personal preference I suppose but the Unity dock/launcher I am yet trying to move to a location other than the default left with nil success. It takes up real-estate on my screen I need and can put to good use and it gets in the way most times by making me click many times than necessary so for those who love Unity and it work's for you great but am happy with my Gnome Classic. Gnome3 vs Unity:http://lifehacker.com/5853099/linux-desktop-faceoff-gnome-3-vs-ubuntu-unity Thank's - Aruna -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 20:53:11 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:53:11 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >And a touch of self promotion (directly related to the subject at hand): "The Window Manager Report," >http://www.gilesorr.com/wm/, which includes a comprehensive (correct me if I'm wrong!) list of Window Managers. Wow, this is exactly what I was looking all over for many thank's and nice work :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 21:41:46 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:41:46 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140122214146.GB17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 02:37:55PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I found that very confusing, and I understood the subject before > reading it. > > The term "thread" in hardware is not the same as "thread" in > software. A thread in hardware is just the execution of a process > (which might involve execution of a software thread). > > A "thread" in software is just a process that shares a lot of > resources with other threads. A thread is a CPU context and stack running within a process's memory space. A software process is one or more threads sharing a memoryspace. If you avoid things like thread local storage (TLS), then memory is shared between all threads in a process. > Software view: > > Unix Process: essentially a running program. Remember, you can have > multiple instances of the running program, assuming it is written to > not have multiple instances trip over each other. I would almost have thought that you had to write your program to trip over itself. Most things should automatically not do so, but then again I am probably thinking of the standard utilities lke cat and such which tend to work with files specified on the command line and pipes and such, and hence really can't interfere with other copies unless the users asks for it. > This "trip over each other" criterion is actually very important. Old > style Unix programs did that pretty well. The only issue was global > resources, for example a wired-in file that might be written to. > > Unfortunately, most GUI programs to have global resources that they > don't share well: config files, caches, and who knows what else. When > you try to run multiple copies of Firefox, it discovers this and > actually only runs the one copy, with multiple windows. > > Windows programs (of which I know little) seem to be like GUI > programs: they are not very good at having multiple instances NOT > stepping on each other. > > Unix processes can only share a few things accidentally (files), and > they are fairly easy to get straight. > > Threads are different. Traditionally, multiple threads within the > same program share almost everything. For example, memory and hence > most variables. So instances very easily step on each other. It takes a > lot of care to design a program with threads that is both efficient and > not buggy. It's not a great paradigm and I avoid it like the plague. > > Multiprogramming / multi-tasking: a property of an operating system > (OS) that allows multiple processes to run at (roughly) the same time. > All modern OSes do that, but it wasn't always so. > > Hardware view: > > Multiprocessor: hardware with multiple CPUs. It takes work to make an > OS support it, but Linux got that support about 20 years ago. Windows > has it too. Unix and OSX have supported it for quite a while. To > properly written user software, it is a non-issue because all that > happens is that the OS can let multiple process run and exactly the > same time, which is more or less indistinguishable from (roughly) the > same time. > > An OS might do a better job if it knows that certain paths between > pairs of processors have different costs (eg. NUMA, shared caches, > ...). For example, an OS scheduler probably tries to restart a > process on the same processor on which it ran the last time in the > hope that the cache retains relevant data. That probably explains the statement I saw that Windows 2000 ran better with hyperthreading off, since it did not have a clue about the SMT stuff and would schedule two tass on one core while leaving other cores idle and getting subpar performance as a result. > Multicore: a multiprocessor that has several CPUs on the same chip. > From a software view, indistinguishable from Multiprocessor. > > HyperThreaded (HT): Intel's trademark(?) for Simultaneous > Multi-Threaded (SMT). It has probably displaced SMT as a term. IBM very much uses the term SMT for the power line of CPUs. A nice system like the IBM p795 has 32 CPUs, each with 8 cores, each with 4 threads. So it qualifies as multi processor, multi core (both SMP really), multi thread (SMT). So 256 cores, with a total of 1024 hardware threads. I seem to recall hearing a presentation once where someone mentioned having tried doing a linux kernel 'make allyesconfig -j' on such a machine, and having the complete kernel with all drivers built in about 5 seconds. > Simultaneous Multi-Threaded: implement multi-core, but with a lot of > shared hardware resources. These hardware resources are expensive. > By design, this sharing is invisible to software, except for > performance. SMT can opportunistically keep the hardware usefully > employed when work on one process is "stalled" (eg. due to a memory > fetch). How can this go wrong (apart from bogus implementation)? > One way is that things like the L1 cache are likely shared and > therefore less effective for each "processor". Well the P4 did SMT with just one core, as does the atom chips. > Since the OS can switch a processor between processes when progress on > the first is delays (multitasking), why is SMT useful? Because > multitasking and SMT operate on quite different time scales. Process > switching takes many microseconds and involves storing and restoring a > lot of state (eg. registers), taking many OS instructions. SMT > switching is all done by hardware and takes just a few machine cycles, > less than the time to access a single memory location. But SMT > requires that the hardware have duplicate resources for holding > exactly that state. SMT takes no time to switch because each thread has it's own set of registers. The CPU state is duplicated, the other resources are generally shared (although a design can choose to duplicate as much as it wants in addition to the CPU state bits). > Multitasking is good for exploiting hardware that would otherwise be > idle while waiting for I/O. SMT is good for exploiting hardware that > would be idle while awaiting a memory fetch. > > Summary: as a programmer, you don't need to care about Multicore, HT, > SMT. Except that you need to remember that processors are not getting > faster, they are getting wider. If you don't parallelize your > software stack, you are not getting all the CPU crunch out of your > hardware. If CPU isn't a bottleneck, then this matters not at all. Certainly don't expect much improvement in clock speeds or performance for a single thread going forward. If your code can't be parallelized, then your performance limit has pretty much been hit at this point. > Don't write multi-threaded programs without a great deal of > forethought. That is certainly true. > There are ways of exploiting multiprocessing that are easy: > > - lots of independent programs can be run at the same time > > - lots of copies of the same program can be run (as long as it is > polite about sharing global resources) > > - you can write programs in a language which doesn't force the > programmer to explicitly deal with threads (eg. Erlang). Certainly some interesting research into having compilers generate parallel code automatically from loops and other things in the code. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 02:24:06 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:24:06 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52E07D46.7020508@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John wrote: > ...a black blank screen that cannot be released, even with > ctrl+alt+backspace or ctrl+alt+delete. Ctrl+Alt+Backspace hasn't been implemented in Ubuntu for about five years. Now the preferred way to restart X is with the Secure Access Key, SysRq+Alt+K There's a document on the various System Request keystrokes at http://www.debian-administration.org/article/457/The_magic_sysreq_options_introduced And the Internet is full of documents on how to restore Ctrl+Alt+Backspace: https://ixquick.com/do/metasearch.pl?query=ubuntu+ctrl-alt-backspace - --Bob. On 14-01-22 03:11 PM, John Moniz wrote: > On 01/21/2014 10:25 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: >> I was testing window managers and having a hard time comparing >> each due to constantly having to log-off and sign back in as >> another user with a different window manager and then something >> sweet happened. I came across a article and now I am flipping >> back and forth between virtual terminals that have gnome-classic, >> LXDE, Openbox and Awesome and it's amazing. >> >> The article is here: >> http://www.doknowevil.net/2010/10/13/multiple-x-desktop-sessions-in-ubuntu/ >> >> >> >> >> >> and for those of us who are lazy the content is right below, >> seriously you should try this it blew me away :) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> This post has a lot to do with graphics but there are no graphics. >> It?s a walk-through explanation and and proof of concept of some >> very interesting features of Linux as a desktop operating >> system. >> >> If you aren?t familiar with X, than this webpage might confuse >> you , the X Window System >> is what draws the >> GUI (graphical user interface) for Ubuntu. On top of this, you >> may have a Window Manager or Desktop Environment >> , such as Gnome (Ubuntu default) or KDE >> (Kubuntu). >> >> When you boot up Ubuntu, it creates a set of ?virtual terminals?. >> These VTs are accessible via a key combination of clt+alt+f1-12. >> VT7 (ctrl+alt+f7) is the default and it handles X?s ?screen 0?. >> If you play around, with the key combination, you?ll notice you >> drop into consoles with a login prompt (f1-6) or a blank screen >> (f8-f12, don?t worry if you see USB errors >> ). >> >> These virtual terminals used to be handled by X which was slower >> and more prone to crash (citation needed) but since Ubuntu 8.04, >> this has been handled by ?Kernel Mode? >> , where this >> management is handled by the kernel. You can switch to another >> virtual terminal and create another X session. >> >> Typically in Linux, you could switch to another VT, login [as >> another user] and type $ *startx ? :1* (special argument ?|--|? >> marks the end of client arguments and the beginning of server >> options, :1 defines screen 1). This will work in Ubuntu but the >> part where I found it failing was switching between this newly >> created X session and back to my original :0 on VT7. >> >> The way I found to do this in Ubuntu seems a bit >> counter-intuitive. Before I explain, you should create a new >> user, if you don?t have another already. You can do this by going >> to System > Administration > Users and Groups. >> >> To create a second X session in Ubuntu, go to your logout menu >> (default top right) and select ?switch user?, and login as >> another user (you don?t want to create an error in the user >> environment). When you login as another user, Ubuntu creates a >> screen :1 on VT8. This means, you can change back to VT7 with >> ctrl+alt+f7, then back to VT8 with ctrl+alt+f8. I /suspect/ this >> is the reason VT8-12 show up as blank screens instead of login >> terminals. Ubuntu seems to be leveraging the power of virtual >> terminals for ?user switches?. >> >> I haven?t noticed much in performance loss doing this and the >> other big question is practicality. Why would you ever do this? >> Perhaps you are testing software and want isolated test cases or >> you want a dedicated user for games with a more streamlined >> window manager and want to be able to flip back and forth. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> >> >> >> > We use this method at home daily for one simple task. My wife and I > each have our own profile the first one to log on gets VT7, the > next gets VT8. She switches to her profile using 'switch user', my > prederence is ctrl+alt+f7/8. > > One annoyance that I have with a similar task in Ubuntu, and maybe > it's only on my machine, is that logging out of one user will > result in a black blank screen that cannot be released, even with > ctrl+alt+backspace or ctrl+alt+delete. Whenever more than one user > is logged on, we have to leave them on until it's time to shut > down. > > The above problem does not seem to occur on my mother-in-law's > machine using Ubuntu, or even in this one when using a different > distro. > > John. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLgfUMACgkQuRKJsNLM5erFkwCdEXaVza3fKTrh/UjFvGeR99f5 pDsAnjRe3vMGO5xU1/4iHDj3Bja1sqq+ =oUzj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 03:49:09 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:49:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140122214146.GB17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140122214146.GB17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | A thread is a CPU context and stack running within a process's memory | space. | A software process is one or more threads sharing a memoryspace. | If you avoid things like thread local storage (TLS), then memory is | shared between all threads in a process. True, in my opinion that isn't the clearest way to explain it to people who don't already understand. BTW, it is sad that TLS isn't a standard part of POSIX. Threads are given their own stack space -- otherwise things get REALLY crazy. | > Unix Process: essentially a running program. Remember, you can have | > multiple instances of the running program, assuming it is written to | > not have multiple instances trip over each other. | | I would almost have thought that you had to write your program to trip | over itself. Most things should automatically not do so, but then again | I am probably thinking of the standard utilities lke cat and such which | tend to work with files specified on the command line and pipes and such, | and hence really can't interfere with other copies unless the users asks | for it. Unix conventions carefully make it easy to write programs that don't trip over themselves. Not so much other systems. Consider, for example, systems with co-operative multi-tasking: everything trips over everything else. You remember being taught how to create temp files? Some of that was to make sure your program instance's tempfile didn't have the same name as another. File locking? All about not tripping over other program instances. Trying to run multiple X display managers? An unknown amount of danger explored in a current (discussion) thread. Notice the suggestion that different users be logged in to each DM (otherwise there will be tripping). Security race conditions: protect yourself from a bad guy tripping you! | > Simultaneous Multi-Threaded: implement multi-core, but with a lot of | > shared hardware resources. I should clarify that: implement it LIKE multi-core... This isn't multi-core but the idea is logically similar. Multi-core shares less than SMT. But multi-core generally does share things: typically some level of cache, perhaps the access to the memory bus, sometimes the clock. Lately, AMD has started sharing FPUs, making their multi-core part way along the spectrum towards SMT. | Well the P4 did SMT with just one core, as does the atom chips. Sorry that I didn't make it clear that I was talking of SMT as like multi-core. | SMT takes no time to switch because each thread has it's own set of | registers. There are registers and there are registers. I think SMT switching can take time on some implementations (certainly some I can dream up). Just like register windows can take time. | Certainly some interesting research into having compilers generate | parallel code automatically from loops and other things in the code. I think that the normal programming models don't lend themselves to fine-grained parallelism, at least not much past what our current compilers and out-of-order CPUs manage already. New languages + new hardware all at once are hard. You can only hope for at most one miracle at a time. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 04:16:30 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:16:30 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140122214146.GB17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Hi Everybodeee, I just spent over four hours waiting for a kernel to compile and from this thread am starting to understand my P4 and 2GB of RAM may not be the best hardware to build kernels on. So this is a urgent cry for help, can anyone please recommend a motherboard+CPU combo that is under $100 that will speed things up ? Maximum available budget is $125.00. If anyone has a old motherboard+CPU they no longer require and I can use that has more processing power than mine please let me know. Can pick up. Question: For reasons unknown am unable to get ccache to kick in. ccache is installed oh-kay, Checks out oh-kay but does not kick in when I use make ? Any and all advice or guidance is very welcome. What else can one do to cut down the time it takes for compilation ? And am still waiting for this to compile ( aaargh ! ) Thank's ! Aruna On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 10:49 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Lennart Sorensen > > | A thread is a CPU context and stack running within a process's memory > | space. > | A software process is one or more threads sharing a memoryspace. > | If you avoid things like thread local storage (TLS), then memory is > | shared between all threads in a process. > > True, in my opinion that isn't the clearest way to explain it to > people who don't already understand. > > BTW, it is sad that TLS isn't a standard part of POSIX. > > Threads are given their own stack space -- otherwise things get REALLY > crazy. > > | > Unix Process: essentially a running program. Remember, you can have > | > multiple instances of the running program, assuming it is written to > | > not have multiple instances trip over each other. > | > | I would almost have thought that you had to write your program to trip > | over itself. Most things should automatically not do so, but then again > | I am probably thinking of the standard utilities lke cat and such which > | tend to work with files specified on the command line and pipes and such, > | and hence really can't interfere with other copies unless the users asks > | for it. > > Unix conventions carefully make it easy to write programs that don't > trip over themselves. Not so much other systems. > > Consider, for example, systems with co-operative multi-tasking: > everything trips over everything else. > > You remember being taught how to create temp files? Some of that was > to make sure your program instance's tempfile didn't have the same > name as another. > > File locking? All about not tripping over other program instances. > > Trying to run multiple X display managers? An unknown amount of > danger explored in a current (discussion) thread. Notice the > suggestion that different users be logged in to each DM (otherwise > there will be tripping). > > Security race conditions: protect yourself from a bad guy tripping > you! > > | > Simultaneous Multi-Threaded: implement multi-core, but with a lot of > | > shared hardware resources. > > I should clarify that: implement it LIKE multi-core... > This isn't multi-core but the idea is logically similar. > > Multi-core shares less than SMT. But multi-core generally > does share things: typically some level of cache, perhaps the access > to the memory bus, sometimes the clock. Lately, AMD has started > sharing FPUs, making their multi-core part way along the spectrum > towards SMT. > > | Well the P4 did SMT with just one core, as does the atom chips. > > Sorry that I didn't make it clear that I was talking of SMT as like > multi-core. > > | SMT takes no time to switch because each thread has it's own set of > | registers. > > There are registers and there are registers. I think SMT switching > can take time on some implementations (certainly some I can dream up). > Just like register windows can take time. > > | Certainly some interesting research into having compilers generate > | parallel code automatically from loops and other things in the code. > > I think that the normal programming models don't lend themselves to > fine-grained parallelism, at least not much past what our current > compilers and out-of-order CPUs manage already. > > New languages + new hardware all at once are hard. You can only > hope for at most one miracle at a time. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 04:22:40 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:22:40 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <20140112004821.GA15127@waltdnes.org> <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | *Bit of a read but truly helped me to understand Hyperthreading vs > | Multi-threading vs Super Threading, may help others so sharing : * > >I found that very confusing, and I understood the subject before >reading it. My apologies Hugh am still very much learning all this and I sometimes may not use the correct terminology or follow accepted norm. That is simply due to my own limited exposure to the area under discussion. I am sorry if that confused you or anyone else :( -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 18:12:29 2014 From: tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org (Todd Howe) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:12:29 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <20140122160221.GA11905@signaltonoise.ca> Message-ID: <20140123181229.GC5855@signaltonoise.ca> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 03:47:26PM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > Hey Todd, have a look at Gnome Commander ? > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1791306 > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1169149 Oh, nice, MC for the desktop. > If your a gnome classic lover like me Mate is > very good too :) ... > Unity has it's good points but does not work for me. It's personal It (Unity) has some nifty features, like the ALT-key thing that searches an application's menus for you, but it entirely blacklisted itself from consideration for my next distro when it started datamining searches after the LTS. That, and there are plenty of other options for semantic desktop search now as well. Someone was telling me I should look into 'Gnome Do'. *Waits for Jesse* -- -____ Todd Howe ____________________ tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org ___________- -____ GPG: public key id E8BCABA7__ IM: tehowe on twitter, jabber ____- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 490 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 18:23:31 2014 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 16:23:31 -0200 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20140123181229.GC5855-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg@public.gmane.org> References: <20140122160221.GA11905@signaltonoise.ca> <20140123181229.GC5855@signaltonoise.ca> Message-ID: Gnome-do is currently stagnant code, depends on Mono and lots of other things... On my Mint 16 I use Synapse (http://launchpad.net/synapse-project) and it's very very good. It's one of the first packages I install on every Ubuntu/Mint I create. Mauro http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. 2014/1/23 Todd Howe > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 03:47:26PM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > > > > > Hey Todd, have a look at Gnome Commander ? > > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1791306 > > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1169149 > > Oh, nice, MC for the desktop. > > > If your a gnome classic lover like me Mate is > > very good too :) > ... > > Unity has it's good points but does not work for me. It's personal > > It (Unity) has some nifty features, like the ALT-key thing that searches an > application's menus for you, but it entirely blacklisted itself from > consideration > for my next distro when it started datamining searches after the LTS. > > That, and there are plenty of other options for semantic desktop search > now as well. Someone was telling me I should look into 'Gnome Do'. > > *Waits for Jesse* > -- > -____ Todd Howe ____________________ tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org ___________- > -____ GPG: public key id E8BCABA7__ IM: tehowe on twitter, jabber ____- > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 18:24:54 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:24:54 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140122214146.GB17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140123182454.GC17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:16:30PM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > Hi Everybodeee, > > I just spent over four hours waiting for a kernel to compile and from this > thread am starting to understand my P4 and 2GB of RAM may not be the best > hardware to build kernels on. > > So this is a urgent cry for help, can anyone please recommend a > motherboard+CPU combo that is under $100 that will speed things up ? > Maximum available budget is $125.00. If anyone has a old motherboard+CPU > they no longer require and I can use that has more processing power than > mine please let me know. Can pick up. Hmm, that is a rather low budget for anything decent x86 wise. Maybe something like Asus H81M-E for $65 and a Pentium G3220 for $68 or a G3420 for $75. Those are 3.0 and 3.2GHZ and dual core. That's really all you could get for that kind of budget. So minimum seems to be $133+tax. $125 is not possible. Oh and you still need to buy ram. Also your powersupply might not have the right 12V connector for a new motherboard, and perhaps your harddisks are not SATA (nothing comes with IDE anymore). Upgrading can be tricky, and often not worth it. > Question: For reasons unknown am unable to get ccache to kick in. ccache is > installed oh-kay, Checks out oh-kay but does not kick in when I use make ? > Any and all advice or guidance is very welcome. What else can one do to cut > down the time it takes for compilation ? And am still waiting for this to > compile ( aaargh ! ) Hmm, I have never really looked at ccache. I believe it wants the checksum of the file and possibly the filename and compiler arguments to all be exactly the same for it to use the cache. Assuming it is even trying to use the cache. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 18:53:32 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:53:32 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20140123181229.GC5855-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg@public.gmane.org> References: <20140122160221.GA11905@signaltonoise.ca> <20140123181229.GC5855@signaltonoise.ca> Message-ID: > >Oh, nice, MC for the desktop. Yup :) > >It (Unity) has some nifty features, like the ALT-key thing that searches an >application's menus for you, but it entirely blacklisted itself from consideration >for my next distro when it started datamining searches after the LTS. That's not all I get amazon ads I never asked for thrown at me, Firefox wants to track me using Geo-location, and Google I recently noticed keep's a log of all and any searches I make. All are easily resolved but Karmic was 110% end user customizable, meaning if I wanted my desktop upside down and sideways it allowed me to do exactly that. Unity has serious issues when it comes to customization and to me that is a big no-no :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 19:02:10 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:02:10 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: <20140123182454.GC17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1389493718.2519.3.camel@tecumseth3> <20140121210852.GU17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140122214146.GB17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140123182454.GC17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: >Hmm, that is a rather low budget for anything decent x86 wise. Lennart if I had the resources I would go purchase that IBM you were saying compiled a kernel with make allyesconfig in under six seconds but am on disability, I have a family far way across the world to support and put food on the table and cover rent and pay utility bills and it goes on... and on. So unless I win lotto6/49 or some good Samaritan decides to give me his/her second hand system am stuck with this measly budget. >Maybe something like Asus H81M-E for $65 and a Pentium G3220 for $68 or >a G3420 for $75. Those are 3.0 and 3.2GHZ and dual core. That's really >all you could get for that kind of budget. So minimum seems to be >$133+tax. $125 is not possible. Oh and you still need to buy ram. >Also your powersupply might not have the right 12V connector for a new >motherboard, and perhaps your harddisks are not SATA (nothing comes with >IDE anymore). Upgrading can be tricky, and often not worth it. Oh dear... well one lives and learns I guess. Thank you for all the valuable info, will rethink all this and decide. > > > Question: For reasons unknown am unable to get ccache to kick in. ccache > is > > installed oh-kay, Checks out oh-kay but does not kick in when I use make > ? > > Any and all advice or guidance is very welcome. What else can one do to > cut > > down the time it takes for compilation ? And am still waiting for this to > > compile ( aaargh ! ) > > >Hmm, I have never really looked at ccache. I believe it wants the >checksum of the file and possibly the filename and compiler arguments >to all be exactly the same for it to use the cache. Assuming it is even >trying to use the cache. Yes it is picky but the documentation says once everything is configured and you get things going ccache can show a remarkable improvement in compilation time. If I had a dual core with 8gigs of ram probably would not need ccache ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 20:46:35 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:46:35 -0500 Subject: Linux Kernel Network Subsystem Patching In-Reply-To: References: <52DEE600.2050408@sobac.com> <20140121224207.GV17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140122214146.GB17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20140123182454.GC17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140123204635.GD17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 02:02:10PM -0500, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: > >Hmm, that is a rather low budget for anything decent x86 wise. > Lennart if I had the resources I would go purchase that IBM you were saying > compiled a kernel with make allyesconfig in under six seconds but am on > disability, I have a family far way across the world to support and put > food on the table and cover rent and pay utility bills and it goes on... > and on. So unless I win lotto6/49 or some good Samaritan decides to give me > his/her second hand system am stuck with this measly budget. I suspect that IBM system costs over $1000000. They don't list prices. > Oh dear... well one lives and learns I guess. Thank you for all the > valuable info, will rethink all this and decide. I think about the cheapest you can do a new machine with the lowest components of everything is around $300 or so. Uping that by another $100 probably close to doubles what you get. > Yes it is picky but the documentation says once everything is configured > and you get things going ccache can show a remarkable improvement in > compilation time. If I had a dual core with 8gigs of ram probably would not > need ccache ? > Well the instructions I see says you can either do: put ccache in front of the compiler command line or Create symlinks matching the name of the compiler in the path earlier than the compiler. /usr/local/bin being a common place, so for example: ln -s `which ccache` /usr/local/bin/gcc ln -s `which ccache` /usr/local/bin/g++ ln -s `which ccache` /usr/local/bin/cc ln -s `which ccache` /usr/local/bin/c++ -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 22:01:08 2014 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:01:08 -0500 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <52E07D46.7020508-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52E07D46.7020508@sobac.com> Message-ID: On 01/22/2014 09:24 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > John wrote: >> ...a black blank screen that cannot be released, even with >> ctrl+alt+backspace or ctrl+alt+delete. > Ctrl+Alt+Backspace hasn't been implemented in Ubuntu for about five > years. Now the preferred way to restart X is with the Secure Access > Key, SysRq+Alt+K Thanks, this works beautifully. I had googled about the problem, but never found this solution. Just don't try it within Gnome, it tries to save a screen shot - often many times over. > > There's a document on the various System Request keystrokes at > http://www.debian-administration.org/article/457/The_magic_sysreq_options_introduced > > And the Internet is full of documents on how to restore > Ctrl+Alt+Backspace: > https://ixquick.com/do/metasearch.pl?query=ubuntu+ctrl-alt-backspace > > - --Bob. > > > On 14-01-22 03:11 PM, John Moniz wrote: >> On 01/21/2014 10:25 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: >>> I was testing window managers and having a hard time comparing >>> each due to constantly having to log-off and sign back in as >>> another user with a different window manager and then something >>> sweet happened. I came across a article and now I am flipping >>> back and forth between virtual terminals that have gnome-classic, >>> LXDE, Openbox and Awesome and it's amazing. >>> >>> The article is here: >>> http://www.doknowevil.net/2010/10/13/multiple-x-desktop-sessions-in-ubuntu/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > and for those of us who are lazy the content is right below, >>> seriously you should try this it blew me away :) >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > This post has a lot to do with graphics but there are no graphics. >>> It?s a walk-through explanation and and proof of concept of some >>> very interesting features of Linux as a desktop operating >>> system. >>> >>> If you aren?t familiar with X, than this webpage might confuse >>> you , the X Window System >>> is what draws the >>> GUI (graphical user interface) for Ubuntu. On top of this, you >>> may have a Window Manager or Desktop Environment >>> , such as Gnome (Ubuntu default) or KDE >>> (Kubuntu). >>> >>> When you boot up Ubuntu, it creates a set of ?virtual terminals?. >>> These VTs are accessible via a key combination of clt+alt+f1-12. >>> VT7 (ctrl+alt+f7) is the default and it handles X?s ?screen 0?. >>> If you play around, with the key combination, you?ll notice you >>> drop into consoles with a login prompt (f1-6) or a blank screen >>> (f8-f12, don?t worry if you see USB errors >>> ). >>> >>> These virtual terminals used to be handled by X which was slower >>> and more prone to crash (citation needed) but since Ubuntu 8.04, >>> this has been handled by ?Kernel Mode? >>> , where this >>> management is handled by the kernel. You can switch to another >>> virtual terminal and create another X session. >>> >>> Typically in Linux, you could switch to another VT, login [as >>> another user] and type $ *startx ? :1* (special argument ?|--|? >>> marks the end of client arguments and the beginning of server >>> options, :1 defines screen 1). This will work in Ubuntu but the >>> part where I found it failing was switching between this newly >>> created X session and back to my original :0 on VT7. >>> >>> The way I found to do this in Ubuntu seems a bit >>> counter-intuitive. Before I explain, you should create a new >>> user, if you don?t have another already. You can do this by going >>> to System > Administration > Users and Groups. >>> >>> To create a second X session in Ubuntu, go to your logout menu >>> (default top right) and select ?switch user?, and login as >>> another user (you don?t want to create an error in the user >>> environment). When you login as another user, Ubuntu creates a >>> screen :1 on VT8. This means, you can change back to VT7 with >>> ctrl+alt+f7, then back to VT8 with ctrl+alt+f8. I /suspect/ this >>> is the reason VT8-12 show up as blank screens instead of login >>> terminals. Ubuntu seems to be leveraging the power of virtual >>> terminals for ?user switches?. >>> >>> I haven?t noticed much in performance loss doing this and the >>> other big question is practicality. Why would you ever do this? >>> Perhaps you are testing software and want isolated test cases or >>> you want a dedicated user for games with a more streamlined >>> window manager and want to be able to flip back and forth. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >> We use this method at home daily for one simple task. My wife and I >> each have our own profile the first one to log on gets VT7, the >> next gets VT8. She switches to her profile using 'switch user', my >> prederence is ctrl+alt+f7/8. >> >> One annoyance that I have with a similar task in Ubuntu, and maybe >> it's only on my machine, is that logging out of one user will >> result in a black blank screen that cannot be released, even with >> ctrl+alt+backspace or ctrl+alt+delete. Whenever more than one user >> is logged on, we have to leave them on until it's time to shut >> down. >> >> The above problem does not seem to occur on my mother-in-law's >> machine using Ubuntu, or even in this one when using a different >> distro. >> >> John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 22:17:28 2014 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 20:17:28 -0200 Subject: Multiple X ( Desktop ) Sessions in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <52E07D46.7020508@sobac.com> Message-ID: Use AltGr instead of regular Alt key... If won't screen shots you... On Jan 23, 2014 8:04 PM, "John Moniz" wrote: > On 01/22/2014 09:24 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> John wrote: >> >>> ...a black blank screen that cannot be released, even with >>> ctrl+alt+backspace or ctrl+alt+delete. >>> >> Ctrl+Alt+Backspace hasn't been implemented in Ubuntu for about five >> years. Now the preferred way to restart X is with the Secure Access >> Key, SysRq+Alt+K >> > > Thanks, this works beautifully. I had googled about the problem, but never > found this solution. Just don't try it within Gnome, it tries to save a > screen shot - often many times over. > > >> There's a document on the various System Request keystrokes at >> http://www.debian-administration.org/article/ >> 457/The_magic_sysreq_options_introduced >> >> And the Internet is full of documents on how to restore >> Ctrl+Alt+Backspace: >> https://ixquick.com/do/metasearch.pl?query=ubuntu+ctrl-alt-backspace >> >> - --Bob. >> >> >> On 14-01-22 03:11 PM, John Moniz wrote: >> >>> On 01/21/2014 10:25 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane wrote: >>> >>>> I was testing window managers and having a hard time comparing >>>> each due to constantly having to log-off and sign back in as >>>> another user with a different window manager and then something >>>> sweet happened. I came across a article and now I am flipping >>>> back and forth between virtual terminals that have gnome-classic, >>>> LXDE, Openbox and Awesome and it's amazing. >>>> >>>> The article is here: >>>> http://www.doknowevil.net/2010/10/13/multiple-x-desktop- >>>> sessions-in-ubuntu/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> and for those of us who are lazy the content is right below, >> >>> seriously you should try this it blew me away :) >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This post has a lot to do with graphics but there are no graphics. >> >>> It?s a walk-through explanation and and proof of concept of some >>>> very interesting features of Linux as a desktop operating >>>> system. >>>> >>>> If you aren?t familiar with X, than this webpage might confuse >>>> you , the X Window System >>>> is what draws the >>>> GUI (graphical user interface) for Ubuntu. On top of this, you >>>> may have a Window Manager or Desktop Environment >>>> , such as Gnome (Ubuntu default) or KDE >>>> (Kubuntu). >>>> >>>> When you boot up Ubuntu, it creates a set of ?virtual terminals?. >>>> These VTs are accessible via a key combination of clt+alt+f1-12. >>>> VT7 (ctrl+alt+f7) is the default and it handles X?s ?screen 0?. >>>> If you play around, with the key combination, you?ll notice you >>>> drop into consoles with a login prompt (f1-6) or a blank screen >>>> (f8-f12, don?t worry if you see USB errors >>>> ). >>>> >>>> These virtual terminals used to be handled by X which was slower >>>> and more prone to crash (citation needed) but since Ubuntu 8.04, >>>> this has been handled by ?Kernel Mode? >>>> , where this >>>> management is handled by the kernel. You can switch to another >>>> virtual terminal and create another X session. >>>> >>>> Typically in Linux, you could switch to another VT, login [as >>>> another user] and type $ *startx ? :1* (special argument ?|--|? >>>> marks the end of client arguments and the beginning of server >>>> options, :1 defines screen 1). This will work in Ubuntu but the >>>> part where I found it failing was switching between this newly >>>> created X session and back to my original :0 on VT7. >>>> >>>> The way I found to do this in Ubuntu seems a bit >>>> counter-intuitive. Before I explain, you should create a new >>>> user, if you don?t have another already. You can do this by going >>>> to System > Administration > Users and Groups. >>>> >>>> To create a second X session in Ubuntu, go to your logout menu >>>> (default top right) and select ?switch user?, and login as >>>> another user (you don?t want to create an error in the user >>>> environment). When you login as another user, Ubuntu creates a >>>> screen :1 on VT8. This means, you can change back to VT7 with >>>> ctrl+alt+f7, then back to VT8 with ctrl+alt+f8. I /suspect/ this >>>> is the reason VT8-12 show up as blank screens instead of login >>>> terminals. Ubuntu seems to be leveraging the power of virtual >>>> terminals for ?user switches?. >>>> >>>> I haven?t noticed much in performance loss doing this and the >>>> other big question is practicality. Why would you ever do this? >>>> Perhaps you are testing software and want isolated test cases or >>>> you want a dedicated user for games with a more streamlined >>>> window manager and want to be able to flip back and forth. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We use this method at home daily for one simple task. My wife and I >>> each have our own profile the first one to log on gets VT7, the >>> next gets VT8. She switches to her profile using 'switch user', my >>> prederence is ctrl+alt+f7/8. >>> >>> One annoyance that I have with a similar task in Ubuntu, and maybe >>> it's only on my machine, is that logging out of one user will >>> result in a black blank screen that cannot be released, even with >>> ctrl+alt+backspace or ctrl+alt+delete. Whenever more than one user >>> is logged on, we have to leave them on until it's time to shut >>> down. >>> >>> The above problem does not seem to occur on my mother-in-law's >>> machine using Ubuntu, or even in this one when using a different >>> distro. >>> >>> John. >>> >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 23 23:52:01 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 18:52:01 -0500 Subject: A Helping Hand when I needed one ! Message-ID: Dear All, I am unable to find the appropriate words to properly express the immense feeling of gratitude and relief I am feeling right now. I experienced an emotional overload I have not felt in long years a few hours ago. I used to feel am just another positive person who 'cares' but I was suddenly made to clearly re-think and understand there are others out there who do very much CARE! I am truly blessed to have such a wonderful "family" showing their support in such a magnificent way. Since I am at loss for words, it might be best to simply express my appreciation with a sincere and profound thank you. And since you are all now quite confused and wondering has Aruna finally lost his marbles, actually no am quitel sane and the reason for my state of euphoria is that a very kind and generous gentlemen who wishes to remain anonymous reached out to me off the list and contributed the amount of $200.00 toward my computer fund. So I will soon have a new PC that will not take 4 hours to compile a kernel. I wish to state that without the said gentleman and his wife's support I would still be pulling my receding hair all out bit by bit due to kernel compiling stress :) Today I will treasure forever. I am humbled and I am grateful. And I feel special to be among you. Thank you so very much ! Aruna ( The video Chat meeting starts in ten minutes ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 24 03:34:26 2014 From: ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 22:34:26 -0500 Subject: OT: NSA Stuff Message-ID: <1390534466.5070.5.camel@HP-Envy4.local> A bill has been introduced in Washington State that would cut the electricity to the NSA's surveillance center: http://act.rootsaction.org/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=9103 And also this from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/us/politics/watchdog-report-says-nsa-program-is-illegal-and-should-end.html?ref=us&_r=0 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tisdall-DXT9u3ndKiSh7up9GtFB90EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 24 14:04:25 2014 From: tisdall-DXT9u3ndKiSh7up9GtFB90EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (Tim Tisdall) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:04:25 -0500 Subject: A Helping Hand when I needed one ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome. :) I feel your pain too, because my laptop can barely finish compiling a kernel without overheating. It's plenty fast enough (I think), but they didn't design the thing for sustained CPU usage so the heat goes from a safe-ish 60C to over 90C. At about 90C the machine does an emergency shut off to save itself (the safe highest temperature for my CPU is 62C). So, make sure your new machine isn't an Acer Aspire laptop which overheats like mine. -Tim On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane < aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Dear All, > > I am unable to find the appropriate words to properly express the immense > feeling of gratitude > and relief I am feeling right now. I experienced an emotional overload I > have not felt in long years a few hours ago. > > I used to feel am just another positive person who 'cares' but I was > suddenly made to clearly re-think and understand there are others out there > who do very much CARE! > > I am truly blessed to have such a wonderful "family" showing their support > in such a magnificent way. Since I am at loss for words, it might be best > to simply express my appreciation with a sincere and profound thank you. > > And since you are all now quite confused and wondering has Aruna finally > lost his marbles, actually no am quitel sane and the reason for my state of > euphoria is that a very kind and generous gentlemen who wishes to remain > anonymous reached out to me off the list and contributed the amount of > $200.00 toward my computer fund. So I will soon have a new PC that will not > take 4 hours to compile a kernel. > > I wish to state that without the said gentleman and his wife's support I > would still be pulling > my receding hair all out bit by bit due to kernel compiling stress :) > > Today I will treasure forever. I am humbled and I am grateful. And I feel > special to be among you. > > Thank you so very much ! > > Aruna ( The video Chat meeting starts in ten minutes ) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 24 14:08:43 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:08:43 -0500 Subject: A Helping Hand when I needed one ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140124140843.GE17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 09:04:25AM -0500, Tim Tisdall wrote: > Awesome. :) > > I feel your pain too, because my laptop can barely finish compiling a > kernel without overheating. It's plenty fast enough (I think), but they > didn't design the thing for sustained CPU usage so the heat goes from a > safe-ish 60C to over 90C. At about 90C the machine does an emergency shut > off to save itself (the safe highest temperature for my CPU is 62C). So, > make sure your new machine isn't an Acer Aspire laptop which overheats like > mine. I find that cleaning dust and such out of the heatsink/fan every 6 months or so really helps laptops run better. They eventually stop being able to cool. Of course I have 3 cats in the house which doesn't help. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From wwitteman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 24 14:16:37 2014 From: wwitteman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Witteman) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:16:37 -0500 Subject: A Helping Hand when I needed one ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had an Acer Aspire small form-factor desktop which was very laptop like in its construction, and it had a bad heat sink. I bought two at a time and one was a lemon with the heat sink problem. It was fine until you got both CPU cores up to 100%, and then it would shut down very quickly. That happened to me the same weekend I bought the machines, so I was able to return it for replacement without any trouble. On 24 January 2014 09:04, Tim Tisdall wrote: > Awesome. :) > > I feel your pain too, because my laptop can barely finish compiling a kernel > without overheating. It's plenty fast enough (I think), but they didn't > design the thing for sustained CPU usage so the heat goes from a safe-ish > 60C to over 90C. At about 90C the machine does an emergency shut off to > save itself (the safe highest temperature for my CPU is 62C). So, make sure > your new machine isn't an Acer Aspire laptop which overheats like mine. > > -Tim > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane > wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> I am unable to find the appropriate words to properly express the immense >> feeling of gratitude >> and relief I am feeling right now. I experienced an emotional overload I >> have not felt in long years a few hours ago. >> >> I used to feel am just another positive person who 'cares' but I was >> suddenly made to clearly re-think and understand there are others out there >> who do very much CARE! >> >> I am truly blessed to have such a wonderful "family" showing their support >> in such a magnificent way. Since I am at loss for words, it might be best >> to simply express my appreciation with a sincere and profound thank you. >> >> And since you are all now quite confused and wondering has Aruna finally >> lost his marbles, actually no am quitel sane and the reason for my state of >> euphoria is that a very kind and generous gentlemen who wishes to remain >> anonymous reached out to me off the list and contributed the amount of >> $200.00 toward my computer fund. So I will soon have a new PC that will not >> take 4 hours to compile a kernel. >> >> I wish to state that without the said gentleman and his wife's support I >> would still be pulling >> my receding hair all out bit by bit due to kernel compiling stress :) >> >> Today I will treasure forever. I am humbled and I am grateful. And I feel >> special to be among you. >> >> Thank you so very much ! >> >> Aruna ( The video Chat meeting starts in ten minutes ) > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tisdall-DXT9u3ndKiSh7up9GtFB90EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 24 14:34:42 2014 From: tisdall-DXT9u3ndKiSh7up9GtFB90EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (Tim Tisdall) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:34:42 -0500 Subject: A Helping Hand when I needed one ! In-Reply-To: <20140124140843.GE17874-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20140124140843.GE17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: ^_^ Yes, that's the first thing I tried. Unfortunately the Acer Aspire is BRUTALLY hard to open up. Here's the 12 minutes video I used to figure it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq7jH3jFerI After all that work I discovered there wasn't really any dust in there. My guess is it's the unit's design. If you look at 11:48 in the video you can see that the CPU is way on the right side of the laptop while the fan is way on the left. There's a long metal channel connecting the two together. I don't know how common this kind of design is, but it seems like it'd be far better to have the CPU and the fan closer together. There is noticeable heat coming out of the cooling vent, but not enough to keep the CPU at a normal temperature with moderate use. I also noticed I get overheating when watching videos on YouTube! For anyone else with similar issues: I deal with it using a little program called Psensor (in the Ubuntu repo). You can set alarm temperatures on it so you can get a warning with it's starting to overheat. Essentially I get warned when it's overheating instead of finding out when the system just shuts itself off. On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 09:04:25AM -0500, Tim Tisdall wrote: > > Awesome. :) > > > > I feel your pain too, because my laptop can barely finish compiling a > > kernel without overheating. It's plenty fast enough (I think), but they > > didn't design the thing for sustained CPU usage so the heat goes from a > > safe-ish 60C to over 90C. At about 90C the machine does an emergency > shut > > off to save itself (the safe highest temperature for my CPU is 62C). So, > > make sure your new machine isn't an Acer Aspire laptop which overheats > like > > mine. > > I find that cleaning dust and such out of the heatsink/fan every 6 months > or so really helps laptops run better. They eventually stop being able > to cool. > > Of course I have 3 cats in the house which doesn't help. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 24 15:34:59 2014 From: ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org (Bill Henderson) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:34:59 +0000 Subject: A Helping Hand when I needed one ! In-Reply-To: References: <20140124140843.GE17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <52E28823.3040601@torfree.net> On 01/24/2014 02:34 PM, Tim Tisdall wrote: > Unfortunately the Acer Aspire is BRUTALLY hard to open up. [SNIP] Bill reluctantly sticks up his hand. I wouldn't trade 50 Acers for my old Trash80 The Sound went out after half an hour on mine and servicing in PT land is done in Spain from whence, according to the forums, it might be returned in 5 or 6 months. But in the other hand it might not. Ever. Crying Corner: Bill Henderson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 27 23:56:53 2014 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 18:56:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: KDE eating my disk? Message-ID: My /home partition is getting full. Bad me. I'm looking around at the largest files that don't seem useful to me. ~/.kde/share/apps/nepomuk/repository/main/data/virtuosobackend is 105 megs and I don't know what it is. It hasn't been modified for 9 months. Googling suggests that it might be a file index for KDE. I don't use KDE (but I do use a few of its programs under Gnome (eg. kolorpaint, kompare)). I admit that I have tried KDE on this Linux system. Does an index really take 105 MiB? I've got locate, and its system-wide database is 24 MiB. How can I politely ask this thing to go away? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 28 05:05:03 2014 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:05:03 -0500 Subject: KDE eating my disk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52E73A7F.5030200@ss.org> On 01/27/2014 06:56 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > My /home partition is getting full. Bad me. > > I'm looking around at the largest files that don't seem useful to me. > > ~/.kde/share/apps/nepomuk/repository/main/data/virtuosobackend is 105 megs > and I don't know what it is. > > It hasn't been modified for 9 months. > > Googling suggests that it might be a file index for KDE. I don't use KDE > (but I do use a few of its programs under Gnome (eg. kolorpaint, > kompare)). I admit that I have tried KDE on this Linux system. > > Does an index really take 105 MiB? I've got locate, and its system-wide > database is 24 MiB. > > How can I politely ask this thing to go away? My search turns up this: http://www.my-guides.net/en/guides/linux/how-to-disable-nepomuk-strigi-and-akonadi-in-kde4 It probably is one of the KDE apps that's getting it started up via Akonadi. There is a section on disabling Akonadi on the KDE userbase. http://userbase.kde.org/Akonadi More info: http://userbase.kde.org/Nepomuk http://aseigo.blogspot.ca/2010/05/i-dont-need-no-stinking-nepomuk-right.html -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 28 19:35:28 2014 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 14:35:28 -0500 Subject: KDE eating my disk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52E80680.9020000@dinamis.com> On 01/27/2014 06:56 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > My /home partition is getting full. Bad me. > > I'm looking around at the largest files that don't seem useful to me. > > ~/.kde/share/apps/nepomuk/repository/main/data/virtuosobackend is 105 megs > and I don't know what it is. > > It hasn't been modified for 9 months. > > Googling suggests that it might be a file index for KDE. I don't use KDE > (but I do use a few of its programs under Gnome (eg. kolorpaint, > kompare)). I admit that I have tried KDE on this Linux system. > > Does an index really take 105 MiB? I've got locate, and its system-wide > database is 24 MiB. > > How can I politely ask this thing to go away? That was created when you tried KDE. If you don't run KDE, you can safely delete it. It has to do with the Semantic Desktop, something which as a KDE user, I don't enable or use. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay 647-778-8696 Dinamis -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 28 21:01:59 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:01:59 -0500 Subject: A Helping Hand when I needed one ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Awesome. :) >I feel your pain too, because my laptop can barely finish compiling a kernel without overheating. It's plenty fast enough (I >think), but they didn't design the thing for sustained CPU usage so the heat goes from a safe-ish 60C to over 90C. At about >90C the machine does an emergency shut off to save itself (the safe highest temperature for my CPU is 62C). So, make >sure your new machine isn't an Acer Aspire laptop which overheats like mine. Hi Tim, Yes I am negotiating with Filtech Computers at Spadina and College to see if they will reduce the price as I have my own Hard disks and I have a desktop that I clean at least once a month. So heat is not really a issue so far. When I do get a laptop that will of-course have to be looked into :) Aruna -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 28 21:55:08 2014 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:55:08 -0500 Subject: recommend a small remote power box Message-ID: <20140128215508.GA76797@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Can anyone recommend a small power switch to do remote power cycles? 1. Must use wired Ethernet, no wifi. 2. Must have command line interface. 3. Would like it to be small with 4 or less power outlets. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 28 22:08:17 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 17:08:17 -0500 Subject: recommend a small remote power box In-Reply-To: <20140128215508.GA76797-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20140128215508.GA76797@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: if this is to kick a locked machine, i have always used http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/pci_pc_watchdog.aspx even have temp sensor you can also query. Nice thing about these is they will also work when your not around. Assuming the lock up is fully recoverable. -tl On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > Can anyone recommend a small power switch to do remote power cycles? > > 1. Must use wired Ethernet, no wifi. > 2. Must have command line interface. > 3. Would like it to be small with 4 or less power outlets. > -- > Neil Watson > Linux/UNIX Consultant > http://watson-wilson.ca > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 28 22:14:08 2014 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 17:14:08 -0500 Subject: recommend a small remote power box In-Reply-To: <20140128215508.GA76797-ajb9/b42oWj7qFZT6RBq9oSPOIov7LNK@public.gmane.org> References: <20140128215508.GA76797@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <52E82BB0.8010208@alteeve.ca> On 28/01/14 04:55 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > Can anyone recommend a small power switch to do remote power cycles? > > 1. Must use wired Ethernet, no wifi. > 2. Must have command line interface. > 3. Would like it to be small with 4 or less power outlets. You can usually find APC AP7900 1U PDUs for ~$200 used. Not super small, but they are amazing switched PDUs. I use two of them in every cluster I build/sell and they are super fast and built like tanks. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 28 23:16:01 2014 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:16:01 -0500 Subject: recommend a small remote power box In-Reply-To: References: <20140128215508.GA76797@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20140128231601.GA80435@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 05:08:17PM -0500, ted leslie wrote: > > > if this is to kick a locked machine, i have always used No. It's to kick a cable modem. I'm suffering random bouts of high latency. The modem has been replaced, but the problem persists. I have a Rogers tech coming tomorrow, but my hopes are low. Phone support is keen to blame everything on me. One phone tech suggested that the power bar was causing the problem. So the power box is my last resort. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 00:13:07 2014 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:13:07 -0500 Subject: Gnucash 2.4 Small Business Accounting: Beginner's Guide:Amazon:Books Message-ID: Evening, I have always meant to do a bit of personal book keeping but I have always not followed through. I mean, I would start and after a couple of weeks, forget to keep recording my expenses/revenue. So today I thought I could try again - new year resolution you may say. I thought it would be a good thing to invest time learning the software I plan to use for two reasons : - Make it less frustrating and hence likely to follow through - Do a good job while at it. So went online and googled for gnucash books. Looks like there is just one book and Amazon recommendations isn't that great. Have you guys come across something you enjoyed? Or how did you guys learn gnucash? Just monkeying around? Would be great if someone can share their experience. Thanks in advance William http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1849513864/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1390953536&sr=8-3 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 00:40:05 2014 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:40:05 -0500 Subject: HDMI to VGA adapter has arrived. In-Reply-To: References: <52434D7E.9020700@ss.org> <52434EDA.4070201@ss.org> Message-ID: > > http://canada.newark.com/element14/piview/cable-assembly-hdmi-to-vga-adapter/dp/07W8937 > > Just to expand on this a little, I bought the above adapter for use > with one of my Raspberry Pies. Having spent $35 on a computer, I > wasn't about to drop another $100+ plus on a new monitor, not when I > had a couple of 15" LCD VGA monitors available. Reading some of the > Raspberry Pi message boards turns up the fact that some of the HDMI to > VGA adapters don't get along with the Raspberry Pi (the adapters steal > power from the Pi, and some demand more power than the Pi can > supply...). Bottom line for me was that the "PI View" adapter was a > safe choice to allow me to re-use monitors with a Raspberry Pi... The > nice bit here being that these adapters will work in, as far as I > know, all HDMI to VGA situations. Okay, just realized my mistake and feel like an idiot. I bought this cable the other day in order to watch online stuff on TV. The TV has HDMI and the desktop only has VGA. Spent a while wondering why its not working. Then today, took the cable to work to test a hypothesis as there is HDMI cable desktop there. No surprising, it do work if the source is HDMI driving the VGA. I haven't hard luck the other way. Does this mean VGA can't drive HMDI or am I missing something? Any solution around it? William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 00:44:18 2014 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:44:18 -0500 Subject: Gnucash 2.4 Small Business Accounting: Beginner's Guide:Amazon:Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140129004418.GB85523@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> I used GNU cash for a while. I did not find it very intuitive. Making custom reports was especially frustrating. I stopped using it and went back to a spreadsheet. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 01:03:19 2014 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 20:03:19 -0500 Subject: Gnucash 2.4 Small Business Accounting: Beginner's Guide:Amazon:Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been using GnuCash for about four years, and I quite like it. Apart from apparently mind-bendingly complicated manoeuvres necessary to do split transactions (like when you get a cash advance when paying for groceries), it works for me. (And my incomprehension regarding transaction splits may have something to do with a learning disability -- who can tell.) For me, the challenge is recording stuff that I've paid cash for -- if there's no receipt, I don't remember all of the miscellaneous things I've spent money on: paying cash for the TTC, paying for parking with a loose toonie, buying some Tim's, and so forth. Cheers, Alex On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM, William Muriithi < william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Evening, > > I have always meant to do a bit of personal book keeping but I have always > not followed through. I mean, I would start and after a couple of weeks, > forget to keep recording my expenses/revenue. > > So today I thought I could try again - new year resolution you may say. I > thought it would be a good thing to invest time learning the software I > plan to use for two reasons : > > - Make it less frustrating and hence likely to follow through > > - Do a good job while at it. > > So went online and googled for gnucash books. Looks like there is just one > book and Amazon recommendations isn't that great. Have you guys come across > something you enjoyed? Or how did you guys learn gnucash? Just monkeying > around? Would be great if someone can share their experience. > > Thanks in advance > > William > > > http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1849513864/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1390953536&sr=8-3 > -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 01:52:09 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 20:52:09 -0500 Subject: Gnucash 2.4 Small Business Accounting: Beginner's Guide:Amazon:Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: cool timing, i need to get into this, check it out (gnucash). FYI, that book is in safari online, free in the trial, or whatever level membership. Going to get my wife (the accountant) to check it out, she is doing the spread sheet thing now and its not ideal. -tl On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM, William Muriithi < william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Evening, > > I have always meant to do a bit of personal book keeping but I have always > not followed through. I mean, I would start and after a couple of weeks, > forget to keep recording my expenses/revenue. > > So today I thought I could try again - new year resolution you may say. I > thought it would be a good thing to invest time learning the software I > plan to use for two reasons : > > - Make it less frustrating and hence likely to follow through > > - Do a good job while at it. > > So went online and googled for gnucash books. Looks like there is just one > book and Amazon recommendations isn't that great. Have you guys come across > something you enjoyed? Or how did you guys learn gnucash? Just monkeying > around? Would be great if someone can share their experience. > > Thanks in advance > > William > > > http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1849513864/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1390953536&sr=8-3 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 02:29:45 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 21:29:45 -0500 Subject: HDMI to VGA adapter has arrived. In-Reply-To: References: <52434D7E.9020700@ss.org> <52434EDA.4070201@ss.org> Message-ID: On 28 January 2014 19:40, William Muriithi wrote: > > > > > http://canada.newark.com/element14/piview/cable-assembly-hdmi-to-vga-adapter/dp/07W8937 > > > > Just to expand on this a little, I bought the above adapter for use > > with one of my Raspberry Pies. Having spent $35 on a computer, I > > wasn't about to drop another $100+ plus on a new monitor, not when I > > had a couple of 15" LCD VGA monitors available. Reading some of the > > Raspberry Pi message boards turns up the fact that some of the HDMI to > > VGA adapters don't get along with the Raspberry Pi (the adapters steal > > power from the Pi, and some demand more power than the Pi can > > supply...). Bottom line for me was that the "PI View" adapter was a > > safe choice to allow me to re-use monitors with a Raspberry Pi... The > > nice bit here being that these adapters will work in, as far as I > > know, all HDMI to VGA situations. > > Okay, just realized my mistake and feel like an idiot. I bought this cable the other day in order to watch online stuff on TV. The TV has HDMI and the desktop only has VGA. > > Spent a while wondering why its not working. Then today, took the cable to work to test a hypothesis as there is HDMI cable desktop there. No surprising, it do work if the source is HDMI driving the VGA. I haven't hard luck the other way. > > Does this mean VGA can't drive HMDI or am I missing something? Any solution around it? As I understand it, converters going between VGA and HDMI (or DVI or DisplayPort) have to be active, that is there's actually some electronics in them because they're converting from an analog signal (VGA) to a digital signal (HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort). As such, most (all?) of these converters only work in one direction. There's probably someone on the list who can explain it better, but I think that's the main problem. I own two or three such converters: they work fine. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 02:35:07 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 21:35:07 -0500 Subject: Gnucash 2.4 Small Business Accounting: Beginner's Guide:Amazon:Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM, William Muriithi < william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: >> >> Evening, >> >> I have always meant to do a bit of personal book keeping but I have always not followed through. I mean, I would start and after a couple of weeks, forget to keep recording my expenses/revenue. >> >> So today I thought I could try again - new year resolution you may say. I thought it would be a good thing to invest time learning the software I plan to use for two reasons : >> >> - Make it less frustrating and hence likely to follow through >> >> - Do a good job while at it. >> >> So went online and googled for gnucash books. Looks like there is just one book and Amazon recommendations isn't that great. Have you guys come across something you enjoyed? Or how did you guys learn gnucash? Just monkeying around? Would be great if someone can share their experience. >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> William >> >> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1849513864/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1390953536&sr=8-3 On 28 January 2014 20:52, ted leslie wrote: > cool timing, i need to get into this, check it out (gnucash). > FYI, that book is in safari online, free in the trial, or whatever level membership. > Going to get my wife (the accountant) to check it out, she is doing the spread sheet thing now and its not > ideal. Also available for free online at Toronto Public Library if you have a library card: http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/search.jsp?Ntt=gnucash You have to read it in a browser though. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 03:24:12 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 22:24:12 -0500 Subject: Gnucash 2.4 Small Business Accounting: Beginner's Guide:Amazon:Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >So went online and googled for gnucash books. Looks like there is just one book and Amazon recommendations isn't that >great. Have you guys come across something you enjoyed? Or how did you guys learn gnucash? Just monkeying around? >Would be great if someone can share their experience. I just typed in gnucash into youtube and there are tons of tutorials.. Aruna -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 15:12:32 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:12:32 -0500 Subject: HDMI to VGA adapter has arrived. In-Reply-To: References: <52434D7E.9020700@ss.org> <52434EDA.4070201@ss.org> Message-ID: <20140129151232.GA987@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 07:40:05PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > > > > http://canada.newark.com/element14/piview/cable-assembly-hdmi-to-vga-adapter/dp/07W8937 > > > > Just to expand on this a little, I bought the above adapter for use > > with one of my Raspberry Pies. Having spent $35 on a computer, I > > wasn't about to drop another $100+ plus on a new monitor, not when I > > had a couple of 15" LCD VGA monitors available. Reading some of the > > Raspberry Pi message boards turns up the fact that some of the HDMI to > > VGA adapters don't get along with the Raspberry Pi (the adapters steal > > power from the Pi, and some demand more power than the Pi can > > supply...). Bottom line for me was that the "PI View" adapter was a > > safe choice to allow me to re-use monitors with a Raspberry Pi... The > > nice bit here being that these adapters will work in, as far as I > > know, all HDMI to VGA situations. > > Okay, just realized my mistake and feel like an idiot. I bought this cable > the other day in order to watch online stuff on TV. The TV has HDMI and the > desktop only has VGA. > > Spent a while wondering why its not working. Then today, took the cable to > work to test a hypothesis as there is HDMI cable desktop there. No > surprising, it do work if the source is HDMI driving the VGA. I haven't > hard luck the other way. > > Does this mean VGA can't drive HMDI or am I missing something? Any solution > around it? VGA is analog, HDMI is digital. No way without active convertion electronics to go from one to the other. DVI-I consists of both DVI-A and DVI-D. DVI-A is VGA signaling, DVI-D is HDMI signaling, so a DVI port can usually drive HDMI or VGA with a simple adapter for the connector. And yes an HDMI to VGA adapter is one way given the active electronics. In fact converting digital to analog is much easier than the other way. You would want something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1080P-Audio-VGA-to-HDMI-HD-HDTV-Video-Converter-Box-Adapter-for-PC-Laptop-DVD-/111219723013 -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 29 18:37:01 2014 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:37:01 -0500 Subject: Gnucash 2.4 Small Business Accounting: Beginner's Guide:Amazon:Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52E94A4D.8080000@sobac.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 gnucash does seem to be a timely topic. Here at the House of Jonkman my wife is handing back the bookkeeping sceptre (spectre?). So far I've only managed to install gnucash, and haven't done any configuration or data entry at all. I'm still trying to figure out how to download bank statements to import into gnucash -- if I can't manage that with gnucash then using a spreadsheet for manual data entry is probably the better (easier) way. - --Bob. On 14-01-28 08:52 PM, ted leslie wrote: > cool timing, i need to get into this, check it out (gnucash). FYI, > that book is in safari online, free in the trial, or whatever > level membership. Going to get my wife (the accountant) to check it > out, she is doing the spread sheet thing now and its not ideal. > > -tl > > > On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM, William Muriithi < > william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> Evening, >> >> I have always meant to do a bit of personal book keeping but I >> have always not followed through. I mean, I would start and >> after a couple of weeks, forget to keep recording my >> expenses/revenue. >> >> So today I thought I could try again - new year resolution you >> may say. I thought it would be a good thing to invest time >> learning the software I plan to use for two reasons : >> >> - Make it less frustrating and hence likely to follow through >> >> - Do a good job while at it. >> >> So went online and googled for gnucash books. Looks like there is >> just one book and Amazon recommendations isn't that great. Have >> you guys come across something you enjoyed? Or how did you guys >> learn gnucash? Just monkeying around? Would be great if someone >> can share their experience. >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> William >> >> >> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1849513864/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1390953536&sr=8-3 >> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAlLpSksACgkQuRKJsNLM5epMegCgv/dvQeOoIBz6Y2HrKFwOkjEd ugoAoK2JccfD3qLNpTh8HFyj2TWeoi74 =dxLc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 04:50:59 2014 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 23:50:59 -0500 Subject: Gnucash 2.4 Small Business Accounting: Beginner's Guide:Amazon:Books In-Reply-To: <52E94A4D.8080000-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <52E94A4D.8080000@sobac.com> Message-ID: I didn't bother importing any old financial information into GnuCash when I started using it -- I just started entering information. I probably had to make some adjustment when I did my first bank statement reconciliation to get GnuCash's balance to match reality. I'm not really happy with the reporting side of GnuCash, but I that's probably because I haven't fiddled around with that feature enough. Cheers, Alex On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > gnucash does seem to be a timely topic. Here at the House of Jonkman > my wife is handing back the bookkeeping sceptre (spectre?). So far > I've only managed to install gnucash, and haven't done any > configuration or data entry at all. I'm still trying to figure out how > to download bank statements to import into gnucash -- if I can't > manage that with gnucash then using a spreadsheet for manual data > entry is probably the better (easier) way. > > - --Bob. > > > On 14-01-28 08:52 PM, ted leslie wrote: > > cool timing, i need to get into this, check it out (gnucash). FYI, > > that book is in safari online, free in the trial, or whatever > > level membership. Going to get my wife (the accountant) to check it > > out, she is doing the spread sheet thing now and its not ideal. > > > > -tl > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM, William Muriithi < > > william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > >> Evening, > >> > >> I have always meant to do a bit of personal book keeping but I > >> have always not followed through. I mean, I would start and > >> after a couple of weeks, forget to keep recording my > >> expenses/revenue. > >> > >> So today I thought I could try again - new year resolution you > >> may say. I thought it would be a good thing to invest time > >> learning the software I plan to use for two reasons : > >> > >> - Make it less frustrating and hence likely to follow through > >> > >> - Do a good job while at it. > >> > >> So went online and googled for gnucash books. Looks like there is > >> just one book and Amazon recommendations isn't that great. Have > >> you guys come across something you enjoyed? Or how did you guys > >> learn gnucash? Just monkeying around? Would be great if someone > >> can share their experience. > >> > >> Thanks in advance > >> > >> William > >> > >> > >> > http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1849513864/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1390953536&sr=8-3 > >> > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability > > iEYEARECAAYFAlLpSksACgkQuRKJsNLM5epMegCgv/dvQeOoIBz6Y2HrKFwOkjEd > ugoAoK2JccfD3qLNpTh8HFyj2TWeoi74 > =dxLc > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 07:15:50 2014 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 02:15:50 -0500 Subject: Choice of two VPSs Message-ID: Hi all, I am in the process of procuring a VPS instance to run Wordpress and CiviCRM for the Internet Society. After spending a good chunk of time on culling from the crowded hosting field it's down to two providers who offer fairly similar services: VPS.NETand CirrusTech. Both offer good specs, good prices, support Ubuntu and (important to us) have Canadian datacentres. Does anyone here have experience with either of these companies, positive OR negative? If there is something better than the above in the $28-32/mo range, I'm interested. Just be aware that we've already gone through quite a bit to get to the above short list, so any new suggestions need to be compelling. Thanks! -- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 07:20:02 2014 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 02:20:02 -0500 Subject: Make Web Not War: Astroturf? Message-ID: After someone mentioned it to me I checked out http://www.webnotwar.ca It looks very interesting .... until you get to the bottom of the page: *We are a community of open tech enthusiasts. We love everything open: Open Standards, Open Source, and Open Data.* *If you have built something awesome or would like to get involved, please reach out to us - we are always up for making new friends.* *Make Web Not War is powered by People & Code, Idea Notion, Microsoft using WordPress on Windows Azure - and we love it.* I've never known anyone to "love" Microsoft products, especially nobody who claims to "love everything open". No mention of Linux, Apache, BSD, etc. And then... look at the copyright on the website. Pfft. Then again... does anyone here know the people there? I'm happy to be proven wrong. But on the surface this looks like some high quality M$ astroturf. -- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 08:42:49 2014 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 03:42:49 -0500 Subject: Choice of two VPSs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am always eval'ing this stuff, and I use the cloud a lot. I was doing the calc. in your case. Amazon ec2 small linux instance is 1vcpu 1.7GB ram 160gb HD, but slow network storage. your vps is 1gb ram, 40gb hd, 1000GB transfer. for the 27$ ec2 with that, if transfer is all outbound is 100$+ / month. with 200GB outbound its 31$ / month now with amazon all inbound is free. If you need more the 200GB and its all outbound then ec2 look less attractive, I am sure there will be similarly priced in Canada. The ram and cpu are going to be preferable on the ec2. And of course its probably a better vitalization on ec2. I guess this is the standard health club membership deal, that if the average customer is using >200GB a month, its likely going to be a pretty rough (crowded) service. I guess they can offer that 1TB transfer, because on average the customer is somewhat <200GB on average. There are so many other advantages with ec2, RS, or even Azure (which has pretty good small linux instance deals). But I am guessing you need >250GB / month trans? Amazon has a free 1 year .micro instance but it does cycle stealing, and some times you get none. I run a decent CMS on azure linux ubuntu server (probably uses more cpu then your setup), their micro instance appears to be dedicated, and its a cheap lose leader. I think its about 10$/mon. but its only 700MB ram. Bandwidth cost would be similar to ec2. I think you have way better choices if your ok with <200GB outbound / month. second IP will then usually add you 5$, but do you need it? -tl On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hi all, > > I am in the process of procuring a VPS instance to run Wordpress and > CiviCRM for the Internet Society. > > After spending a good chunk of time on culling from the crowded hosting > field it's down to two providers who offer fairly similar services: > VPS.NET and CirrusTech. Both offer good specs, good prices, support > Ubuntu and (important to us) have Canadian datacentres. > > Does anyone here have experience with either of these companies, positive > OR negative? > > If there is something better than the above in the $28-32/mo range, I'm > interested. Just be aware that we've already gone through quite a bit to > get to the above short list, so any new suggestions need to be compelling. > > Thanks! > > -- > Evan Leibovitch > Toronto Canada > > Em: evan at telly dot org > Sk: evanleibovitch > Tw: el56 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 10:42:13 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 05:42:13 -0500 Subject: Hard Drive Endurance In-Reply-To: References: <20140122145125.GA17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 07:26:05AM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: >> > "Which hard drive to buy" has come up a couple times on this list: >> > >> > http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/01/21/2232235/who-makes-the-best-hard-disk-drives >> > >> > The original article, if you want to bypass Slashdot: >> > >> > http://blog.backblaze.com/2014/01/21/what-hard-drive-should-i-buy/ >> > >> > Backblaze buys the cheapest model of HD they can find, but they use them by >> > the thousands. The stats they generate are of course for their specific >> > use case, but it's interesting. The short version: Seagate: Bad, Western >> > Digital: OK, Hitachi: Good (others: not enough data). I've favoured WD, so >> > I may need to rethink that. Definitely interesting. >> >> The IBM deskstar still worries me, which may be why I never have given >> Hitachi a chance. > > On 22 January 2014 12:27, Do-Ming Lum wrote: > Agreed. Every IBM or Hitachi drive I have ever owned failed. Admittedly not > a very large sample because I have mostly stuck with Seagate and WD. The > Seagate stats are worrying, though. Can't trust anything these days: http://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/storage-hardware/selecting-a-disk-drive-how-not-to-do-research-1.html Also from Slashdot, it's a refutal - by someone who claims no association with Backblaze, Seagate, or any other HD manufacturer. I admit to not having read it, but Slashdot's summary claims that Backblaze's Seagate drives were all significantly older than the other drives and some had known problems - so of course they failed first. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 11:57:46 2014 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 06:57:46 -0500 Subject: Make Web Not War: Astroturf? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 January 2014 02:20, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > After someone mentioned it to me I checked out http://www.webnotwar.ca > > It looks very interesting .... until you get to the bottom of the page: > > We are a community of open tech enthusiasts. We love everything open: Open Standards, Open Source, and Open Data. > > If you have built something awesome or would like to get involved, please reach out to us - we are always up for making new friends. > > Make Web Not War is powered by People & Code, Idea Notion, Microsoft using WordPress on Windows Azure - and we love it. > > > > I've never known anyone to "love" Microsoft products, especially nobody who claims to "love everything open". No mention of Linux, Apache, BSD, etc. > > And then... look at the copyright on the website. > > Pfft. > > Then again... does anyone here know the people there? I'm happy to be proven wrong. But on the surface this looks like some high quality M$ astroturf. On the "Contact Us" page: Email: mwnwcan-0li6OtcxBFHby3iVrkZq2A at public.gmane.org Microsoft knows a LOT about "openness" - they've been trying to prevent it for years! -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 12:18:08 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 07:18:08 -0500 Subject: Make Web Not War: Astroturf? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please scroll all the way to the bottom and check the Terms and Conditionslink. But under Tutorials they have this: http://www.webnotwar.ca/setting-up-ubuntu-linux-vm-on-windows-azure-for-node-js-using-essential-node-azure-tools-on-mac-os-x/ On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > On 30 January 2014 02:20, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > After someone mentioned it to me I checked out http://www.webnotwar.ca > > > > It looks very interesting .... until you get to the bottom of the page: > > > > We are a community of open tech enthusiasts. We love everything open: > Open Standards, Open Source, and Open Data. > > > > If you have built something awesome or would like to get involved, > please reach out to us - we are always up for making new friends. > > > > Make Web Not War is powered by People & Code, Idea Notion, Microsoft > using WordPress on Windows Azure - and we love it. > > > > > > > > I've never known anyone to "love" Microsoft products, especially nobody > who claims to "love everything open". No mention of Linux, Apache, BSD, etc. > > > > And then... look at the copyright on the website. > > > > Pfft. > > > > Then again... does anyone here know the people there? I'm happy to be > proven wrong. But on the surface this looks like some high quality M$ > astroturf. > > On the "Contact Us" page: > > Email: mwnwcan-0li6OtcxBFHby3iVrkZq2A at public.gmane.org > > Microsoft knows a LOT about "openness" - they've been trying to prevent it > for years! > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marclijour-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 12:23:35 2014 From: marclijour-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 07:23:35 -0500 Subject: Choice of two VPSs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did you check Dreamhost? On Jan 30, 2014 2:18 AM, "Evan Leibovitch" wrote: > Hi all, > > I am in the process of procuring a VPS instance to run Wordpress and > CiviCRM for the Internet Society. > > After spending a good chunk of time on culling from the crowded hosting > field it's down to two providers who offer fairly similar services: > VPS.NET and CirrusTech. Both offer good specs, good prices, support > Ubuntu and (important to us) have Canadian datacentres. > > Does anyone here have experience with either of these companies, positive > OR negative? > > If there is something better than the above in the $28-32/mo range, I'm > interested. Just be aware that we've already gone through quite a bit to > get to the above short list, so any new suggestions need to be compelling. > > Thanks! > > -- > Evan Leibovitch > Toronto Canada > > Em: evan at telly dot org > Sk: evanleibovitch > Tw: el56 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 12:24:23 2014 From: aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aruna Hewapathirane) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 07:24:23 -0500 Subject: Make Web Not War: Astroturf? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Under Terms and Conditions: ( I have boldfaced and colored red the critical mass term ) PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE LIMITATION. Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and non-commercial use. You may *not* modify, copy, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services obtained from the Services. Wow.. so THIS is their concept of openness :) On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 7:18 AM, Aruna Hewapathirane < aruna.hewapathirane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Please scroll all the way to the bottom and check the Terms and Conditionslink. > > But under Tutorials they have this: > > http://www.webnotwar.ca/setting-up-ubuntu-linux-vm-on-windows-azure-for-node-js-using-essential-node-azure-tools-on-mac-os-x/ > > > > > On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > >> On 30 January 2014 02:20, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> > After someone mentioned it to me I checked out http://www.webnotwar.ca >> > >> > It looks very interesting .... until you get to the bottom of the page: >> > >> > We are a community of open tech enthusiasts. We love everything open: >> Open Standards, Open Source, and Open Data. >> > >> > If you have built something awesome or would like to get involved, >> please reach out to us - we are always up for making new friends. >> > >> > Make Web Not War is powered by People & Code, Idea Notion, Microsoft >> using WordPress on Windows Azure - and we love it. >> > >> > >> > >> > I've never known anyone to "love" Microsoft products, especially nobody >> who claims to "love everything open". No mention of Linux, Apache, BSD, etc. >> > >> > And then... look at the copyright on the website. >> > >> > Pfft. >> > >> > Then again... does anyone here know the people there? I'm happy to be >> proven wrong. But on the surface this looks like some high quality M$ >> astroturf. >> >> On the "Contact Us" page: >> >> Email: mwnwcan-0li6OtcxBFHby3iVrkZq2A at public.gmane.org >> >> Microsoft knows a LOT about "openness" - they've been trying to prevent >> it for years! >> >> -- >> Giles >> http://www.gilesorr.com/ >> gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org >> > > > > -- > *Aruna Hewapathirane* > Consultant/Trainer > Phone : 647-709-9269 > Website: Open Source Solutions > > > > > > -- *Aruna Hewapathirane* Consultant/Trainer Phone : 647-709-9269 Website: Open Source Solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marclijour-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 12:20:29 2014 From: marclijour-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 07:20:29 -0500 Subject: Make Web Not War: Astroturf? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keith Loo and Bruce Chau are very active in local meet ups and open government/data circles. They get developers started with Azure. They are also helping big time the people with disabilities community. On Jan 30, 2014 2:23 AM, "Evan Leibovitch" wrote: > > After someone mentioned it to me I checked out http://www.webnotwar.ca > > It looks very interesting .... until you get to the bottom of the page: > > *We are a community of open tech enthusiasts. We love everything open: > Open Standards, Open Source, and Open Data.* > > *If you have built something awesome or would like to get involved, please > reach out to us - we are always up for making new friends.* > > *Make Web Not War is powered by People & Code, Idea Notion, Microsoft > using WordPress on Windows Azure - and we love it.* > > > > I've never known anyone to "love" Microsoft products, especially nobody > who claims to "love everything open". No mention of Linux, Apache, BSD, etc. > > And then... look at the copyright on the website. > > Pfft. > > Then again... does anyone here know the people there? I'm happy to be > proven wrong. But on the surface this looks like some high quality M$ > astroturf. > > -- > Evan Leibovitch > Toronto Canada > > Em: evan at telly dot org > Sk: evanleibovitch > Tw: el56 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 14:41:07 2014 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 09:41:07 -0500 Subject: Gnucash 2.4 Small Business Accounting: Beginner's Guide:Amazon:Books In-Reply-To: References: <52E94A4D.8080000@sobac.com> Message-ID: > I didn't bother importing any old financial information into GnuCash when I started using it -- I just started entering information. I probably had to make some adjustment when I did my first bank statement reconciliation to get GnuCash's balance to match reality. Have started doing this too. Plan to look at statement importation over weekend > > I'm not really happy with the reporting side of GnuCash, but I that's probably because I haven't fiddled around with that feature enough. > What was off if you don't mind me asking? Have you ever used something else before that you compared against? Thanks all for advice. Will scribble what I learn along and update the group later > Cheers, > > Alex > > William > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote: >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> gnucash does seem to be a timely topic. Here at the House of Jonkman >> my wife is handing back the bookkeeping sceptre (spectre?). So far >> I've only managed to install gnucash, and haven't done any >> configuration or data entry at all. I'm still trying to figure out how >> to download bank statements to import into gnucash -- if I can't >> manage that with gnucash then using a spreadsheet for manual data >> entry is probably the better (easier) way. >> >> - --Bob. >> >> >> On 14-01-28 08:52 PM, ted leslie wrote: >> > cool timing, i need to get into this, check it out (gnucash). FYI, >> > that book is in safari online, free in the trial, or whatever >> > level membership. Going to get my wife (the accountant) to check it >> > out, she is doing the spread sheet thing now and its not ideal. >> > >> > -tl >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM, William Muriithi < >> > william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Evening, >> >> >> >> I have always meant to do a bit of personal book keeping but I >> >> have always not followed through. I mean, I would start and >> >> after a couple of weeks, forget to keep recording my >> >> expenses/revenue. >> >> >> >> So today I thought I could try again - new year resolution you >> >> may say. I thought it would be a good thing to invest time >> >> learning the software I plan to use for two reasons : >> >> >> >> - Make it less frustrating and hence likely to follow through >> >> >> >> - Do a good job while at it. >> >> >> >> So went online and googled for gnucash books. Looks like there is >> >> just one book and Amazon recommendations isn't that great. Have >> >> you guys come across something you enjoyed? Or how did you guys >> >> learn gnucash? Just monkeying around? Would be great if someone >> >> can share their experience. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1849513864/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1390953536&sr=8-3 >> >> >> > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) >> Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability >> >> iEYEARECAAYFAlLpSksACgkQuRKJsNLM5epMegCgv/dvQeOoIBz6Y2HrKFwOkjEd >> ugoAoK2JccfD3qLNpTh8HFyj2TWeoi74 >> =dxLc >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > -- > Alex Beamish > Toronto, Ontario > aka talexb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 14:44:20 2014 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 09:44:20 -0500 Subject: HDMI to VGA adapter has arrived. In-Reply-To: <20140129151232.GA987-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <52434D7E.9020700@ss.org> <52434EDA.4070201@ss.org> <20140129151232.GA987@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: > > > > Does this mean VGA can't drive HMDI or am I missing something? Any solution > > around it? > > VGA is analog, HDMI is digital. No way without active convertion > electronics to go from one to the other. > > DVI-I consists of both DVI-A and DVI-D. DVI-A is VGA signaling, DVI-D > is HDMI signaling, so a DVI port can usually drive HDMI or VGA with > a simple adapter for the connector. > > And yes an HDMI to VGA adapter is one way given the active electronics. > In fact converting digital to analog is much easier than the other way. > > You would want something like this: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/1080P-Audio-VGA-to-HDMI-HD-HDTV-Video-Converter-Box-Adapter-for-PC-Laptop-DVD-/111219723013 > Thanks a lot Len. Will look for it at Canada computers and if they don't have pick above William > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 15:12:52 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:12:52 -0500 Subject: Make Web Not War: Astroturf? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140130151252.GA15446@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 02:20:02AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > After someone mentioned it to me I checked out http://www.webnotwar.ca > > It looks very interesting .... until you get to the bottom of the page: > > *We are a community of open tech enthusiasts. We love everything open: Open > Standards, Open Source, and Open Data.* > > *If you have built something awesome or would like to get involved, please > reach out to us - we are always up for making new friends.* > > *Make Web Not War is powered by People & Code, Idea Notion, Microsoft > using WordPress on Windows Azure - and we love it.* > > > > I've never known anyone to "love" Microsoft products, especially nobody who > claims to "love everything open". No mention of Linux, Apache, BSD, etc. > > And then... look at the copyright on the website. > > Pfft. > > Then again... does anyone here know the people there? I'm happy to be > proven wrong. But on the surface this looks like some high quality M$ > astroturf. Wow that wesite seems so self contradictory. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 15:21:15 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:21:15 -0500 Subject: HDMI to VGA adapter has arrived. In-Reply-To: References: <52434D7E.9020700@ss.org> <52434EDA.4070201@ss.org> <20140129151232.GA987@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140130152115.GB15446@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 09:44:20AM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > > > > > > Does this mean VGA can't drive HMDI or am I missing something? Any > solution > > > around it? > > > > VGA is analog, HDMI is digital. No way without active convertion > > electronics to go from one to the other. > > > > DVI-I consists of both DVI-A and DVI-D. DVI-A is VGA signaling, DVI-D > > is HDMI signaling, so a DVI port can usually drive HDMI or VGA with > > a simple adapter for the connector. > > > > And yes an HDMI to VGA adapter is one way given the active electronics. > > In fact converting digital to analog is much easier than the other way. > > > > You would want something like this: > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/1080P-Audio-VGA-to-HDMI-HD-HDTV-Video-Converter-Box-Adapter-for-PC-Laptop-DVD-/111219723013 > > > Thanks a lot Len. Will look for it at Canada computers and if they don't > have pick above That was just the first one I found on google. No idea if it is any good. I haven't owned a PC for over a decade that only had VGA output (and except for laptops, they haven't even had VGA output). A few found through shopbot.ca: http://www.123inkcartridges.ca/accessories-product/Cab_4629.html http://www.primecables.com/p-311466-cab-4629-vga-rl-stereo-audio-to-hdmi-converter-w-dc-adapter http://www.ahappydeal.com/product-85679.html The first two appear to in fact be the same company (same phone number, same waysite layout, same model, same price), the last one might actually be US based. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 15:35:47 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:35:47 -0500 Subject: Hard Drive Endurance In-Reply-To: References: <20140122145125.GA17874@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20140130153547.GC15446@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 05:42:13AM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > Can't trust anything these days: Certainly not this article. > http://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/storage-hardware/selecting-a-disk-drive-how-not-to-do-research-1.html > > Also from Slashdot, it's a refutal - by someone who claims no association > with Backblaze, Seagate, or any other HD manufacturer. I admit to not > having read it, but Slashdot's summary claims that Backblaze's Seagate > drives were all significantly older than the other drives and some had > known problems - so of course they failed first. Seagate has had a lot of "known problems", many of which Seagate spent a long time denying at first. They still failed. They still put drives on the market that didn't last. And that article is amazingly wrong. It confuses read error rate with drive failure rate. And it doesn't understand that 120% failure per year means the drives on average lasted less than a year (and in fact is listed as 0.8 years on average). So no understanding of statistics or hard drives in general it seems. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 15:55:36 2014 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: Make Web Not War: Astroturf? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52EA75F8.4090509@mylesbraithwaite.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I've never known anyone to "love" Microsoft products, especially nobody > who claims to "love everything open". No mention of Linux, Apache, BSD, etc. > > And then... look at the copyright on the website. > > Pfft. > > Then again... does anyone here know the people there? I'm happy to be > proven wrong. But on the surface this looks like some high quality M$ > astroturf. I went to one of their events a few years ago and had amazing conversations about the open web. It was definitely worth going. It was heavily sponsored by Microsoft but I wouldn't call it "high quality M$ astroturf" (at least it wasn't as bad when Yahoo! had a similar event in Toronto now that was some high quality astroturf). Azure does support Linux VMs[1] and their web site is running on CentOS and Apache (and because it's WordPress I would assume PHP and MySQL): $ curl --head www.webnotwar.ca HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 15:44:40 GMT Server: Apache/2.2.15 (CentOS) X-Powered-By: PHP/5.3.3 X-Pingback: http://www.webnotwar.ca/xmlrpc.php Connection: close Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 [1]: -- Myles Braithwaite | http://mylesb.ca/e -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 17:19:37 2014 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:19:37 -0500 Subject: Make Web Not War: Astroturf? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52EA89A9.9010903@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > But on the surface this looks like some high quality M$ astroturf. Since when does MS make quality anything? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 17:45:38 2014 From: qwerty172-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bill Thanis) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: Make Web Not War: Astroturf? In-Reply-To: <52EA89A9.9010903-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <52EA89A9.9010903@rogers.com> Message-ID: The term was high quality, not good quality. High quality shit, is still meets or exceeds the expectations for that product. On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 12:19 PM, James Knott wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > But on the surface this looks like some high quality M$ astroturf. > > Since when does MS make quality anything? ;-) > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 17:49:43 2014 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:49:43 -0500 Subject: Hosting & DNS providers... Message-ID: I'm doing a little job for a not-for-profit that is currently using three firms to support their web presence (a DNS registrar and two web hosting firms (one website offering their public presence, the other used to distribute files). The organization is wondering about reducing the number of firms down to one. Okay, so I can easily look-up and see that firm X has the services needed for $X month, but it is a little harder to figure out is this firm good/bad/indifferent when it comes to support, and service. So, anyone on this list with suggestions regarding who is particularly good (or particularly bad). One of the firms I have looked at is GoDaddy. Yes, I know some of their ads have been in ... questionable ... taste (heavy on women in tight fitting outfits), but are they good for ALL of the roles listed above? Thanks. Colin. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 17:55:54 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:55:54 -0500 Subject: Hosting & DNS providers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140130175554.GD15446@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 12:49:43PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > I'm doing a little job for a not-for-profit that is currently using three > firms to support their web presence (a DNS registrar and two web hosting > firms (one website offering their public presence, the other used to > distribute files). The organization is wondering about reducing the number > of firms down to one. > > Okay, so I can easily look-up and see that firm X has the services needed > for $X month, but it is a little harder to figure out is this firm > good/bad/indifferent when it comes to support, and service. > > So, anyone on this list with suggestions regarding who is particularly good > (or particularly bad). One of the firms I have looked at is GoDaddy. Yes, I > know some of their ads have been in ... questionable ... taste (heavy on > women in tight fitting outfits), but are they good for ALL of the roles > listed above? Weren't they the ones that "lost" a highly "valuable" twitter account for someone recently? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/30/rare_twitter_account_stolen/ -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From wwitteman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 18:03:08 2014 From: wwitteman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Witteman) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:03:08 -0500 Subject: Hosting & DNS providers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would take two tacks to approach this question: 1. You are better off if your DNS is different from your registrar is different from your host. This gives you the opportunity to migrate any one or two pieces of your DNS-driven infrastructure to other providers is you have any difficulties. 2. Take a look at EasyDNS - they have a Toronto office, they are principled and technically sound and they've been around forever. I've had great experiences with them for 10+ years. William On 30 January 2014 12:49, Colin McGregor wrote: > I'm doing a little job for a not-for-profit that is currently using three > firms to support their web presence (a DNS registrar and two web hosting > firms (one website offering their public presence, the other used to > distribute files). The organization is wondering about reducing the number > of firms down to one. > > Okay, so I can easily look-up and see that firm X has the services needed > for $X month, but it is a little harder to figure out is this firm > good/bad/indifferent when it comes to support, and service. > > So, anyone on this list with suggestions regarding who is particularly good > (or particularly bad). One of the firms I have looked at is GoDaddy. Yes, I > know some of their ads have been in ... questionable ... taste (heavy on > women in tight fitting outfits), but are they good for ALL of the roles > listed above? > > Thanks. > > Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 18:11:29 2014 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:11:29 -0500 Subject: Hosting & DNS providers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52EA95D1.6020603@mylesbraithwaite.com> > Okay, so I can easily look-up and see that firm X has the services > needed for $X month, but it is a little harder to figure out is this > firm good/bad/indifferent when it comes to support, and service. I am using NearlyFreeSpeech.net[1] for a bunch of client web sites at the moment and love it (they are a mixture of static and PHP/MySQL). I have used WebFaction[2] in the past and it's okay. > So, anyone on this list with suggestions regarding who is particularly > good (or particularly bad). One of the firms I have looked at is > GoDaddy. Yes, I know some of their ads have been in ... questionable ... > taste (heavy on women in tight fitting outfits), but are they good for > ALL of the roles listed above? Please don't use GoDaddy they kill elephants[3] and there are better alternatives out there. [1]: [2]: [3]: -- Myles Braithwaite | http://mylesb.ca/e -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 30 18:22:00 2014 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 13:22:00 -0500 Subject: Hosting & DNS providers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140130182200.GA95723@ettin.watson-wilson.ca> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 01:03:08PM -0500, William Witteman wrote: >2. Take a look at EasyDNS - they have a Toronto office, they are >principled and technically sound and they've been around forever. >I've had great experiences with them for 10+ years. ++ -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 31 16:46:40 2014 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 11:46:40 -0500 Subject: (Way off topic) Wanted: pen plotter Message-ID: I'm looking for an electro-mechanical plotter, preferably working. Thought I'd ask here before hitting eBay just in case someone had one stashed away. (Please reply off list if possible.) Thanks Stewart -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From northdot9-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 31 16:53:59 2014 From: northdot9-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (David Thornton) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 11:53:59 -0500 Subject: (Way off topic) Wanted: pen plotter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting , I can think of a pile of cool things to do with a plotter. http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/search/sss?zoomToPosting=&catAbb=sss&query=plotter+-vinyl&minAsk=&maxAsk=&sort=rel&excats= David On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Stewart Russell wrote: > I'm looking for an electro-mechanical plotter, preferably working. Thought > I'd ask here before hitting eBay just in case someone had one stashed away. > > (Please reply off list if possible.) > > Thanks > Stewart > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 31 21:00:29 2014 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 16:00:29 -0500 Subject: (Way off topic) Wanted: pen plotter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140131210029.GE15446@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 11:46:40AM -0500, Stewart Russell wrote: > I'm looking for an electro-mechanical plotter, preferably working. Thought > I'd ask here before hitting eBay just in case someone had one stashed away. > > (Please reply off list if possible.) I couldn't find an easy way to do that without cutting and pasting. My dad has his pen plotter sitting in the basement (those eventually became impossible to run with modern CAD software, and Epson had a sale on a 9700). It seemed a shame to throw it out, so it has been sitting a few years now. It is a Calcomp PaceSetter 2036, so it works at up to 36" width (that will do E size paper which is 34x44"). It has both the standard serial interface and the highspeed parallel interface (with 1MB buffer, which was rather expensive add on card 20 years ago). Probably the most durable, precise (2036dpi when using the calcomp command language) and fast (about 1m/s movement speed) pen plotter ever made. It can emulate HP-GL, but the precision drops to HP level and it's not nearly as nice to work with. The command language is documented in the manual. There should still be some working pens lying around with it, as well as 2 or 3 of the 8 pen carusels. And yes all those specs are from memory. I know it well. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists