From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 00:24:08 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:24:08 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? Message-ID: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> My God, what kind of incantation do I have to recite in order to install Fedora-18? I can't get past "partition selection". Fedora-18's partition selection is totally different from previous Fedora or any other distro. Has anyone successfully installed Fedora-18? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 00:35:52 2013 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:35:52 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <20130301002408.GA28805-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <512FF7E8.8090002@alteeve.ca> On 02/28/2013 07:24 PM, William Park wrote: > My God, what kind of incantation do I have to recite in order to install > Fedora-18? I can't get past "partition selection". Fedora-18's > partition selection is totally different from previous Fedora or any > other distro. > > Has anyone successfully installed Fedora-18? I have. Yes, it's different, but it is possible to do it manually as well. What are you having trouble with, exactly? -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 00:47:52 2013 From: stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stephen Gordon) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:47:52 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <20130301002408.GA28805-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:24 PM, William Park wrote: > My God, what kind of incantation do I have to recite in order to install > Fedora-18? I can't get past "partition selection". Fedora-18's > partition selection is totally different from previous Fedora or any > other distro. > > Has anyone successfully installed Fedora-18? Probably a stupid question but have you glanced at the Installation Guide at all?: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/18/html/Installation_Guide/index.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 00:59:08 2013 From: faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Syed Faisal Akber) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 00:59:08 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: <20130301005925.73A0CA2D9E@lethe.ss.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 01:06:05 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:06:05 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <512FF7E8.8090002-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <512FF7E8.8090002@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: <20130301010605.GA28996@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:35:52PM -0500, Digimer wrote: > On 02/28/2013 07:24 PM, William Park wrote: > >My God, what kind of incantation do I have to recite in order to install > >Fedora-18? I can't get past "partition selection". Fedora-18's > >partition selection is totally different from previous Fedora or any > >other distro. > > > >Has anyone successfully installed Fedora-18? > > I have. Yes, it's different, but it is possible to do it manually as well. > > What are you having trouble with, exactly? Under "Manual Partitioning" screen, I get + New Fedora 18 installation + Unknown Linux ... + Fedora Linux 17 + Unknown Linux ... What do I do then? I would think that I just have to point to partition that Fedora-18 will be installed. In this case, overwriting old Fedora-17 (/dev/sda5). But, I can't get Fedora-18 to point to /dev/sda5. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 01:15:41 2013 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:15:41 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130301005925.73A0CA2D9E-MHjupGqSvN5g9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130301005925.73A0CA2D9E@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: Is it supported under Linux On 2013-02-28 7:59 PM, "Syed Faisal Akber" wrote: > I don't think that you'll see anything that large for USB. Try looking at > the Drobo. > > Faisal > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > *From: *Dave Cramer > *Sent: *Thursday, February 28, 2013 07:16 PM > *To: *tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > *Reply To: *tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > *Subject: *Re: [TLUG]: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage > array ? > > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I think > the connection type is flexible. > > Dave Cramer > > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Syed Faisal Akber wrote: > >> How do you want to connect to it? >> iSCSI, FC, or NFS? >> >> What is your budget? >> >> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. >> *From: *Dave Cramer >> *Sent: *Thursday, February 28, 2013 06:09 PM >> *To: *tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> *Reply To: *tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> *Subject: *[TLUG]: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage >> array ? >> >> Looking at this for a customer. >> >> Any suggestions would be welcome. >> >> Dave Cramer >> >> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG >> requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG > requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 01:30:52 2013 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:30:52 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <20130301002408.GA28805-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130228203052.4e0e2a1cd36058d5a39e8052@eol.ca> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:24:08 -0500 William Park wrote: > My God, what kind of incantation do I have to recite in order to install > Fedora-18? I can't get past "partition selection". Fedora-18's > partition selection is totally different from previous Fedora or any > other distro. > > Has anyone successfully installed Fedora-18? > -- > William William, I post my installation instructions online here... http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/Linux.html#Articles I have installed Fedora_18 on my laptop, Romin. The partition window is a pain. I worked it out, step my step. I still cannot get at my old swap partition, located between /home and /usr/local. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 01:44:09 2013 From: faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Syed Faisal Akber) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 01:44:09 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130301005925.73A0CA2D9E@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: <20130301014425.665A1A2DA6@lethe.ss.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 01:44:24 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:44:24 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130301005925.73A0CA2D9E-MHjupGqSvN5g9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130301005925.73A0CA2D9E@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: <20130301014424.GA29126@node1.opengeometry.net> Are we supposed to read this? -- William On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 12:59:08AM +0000, Syed Faisal Akber wrote: >
I don't think that you'll see anything that large for USB. Try looking at the Drobo.

Faisal

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: Dave Cramer
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 07:16 PM
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Reply To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage > array ?

Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I think the connection type is flexible.

Dave Cramer
>

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Syed Faisal Akber <faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
How do you want to connect to it? 
> > iSCSI, FC, or NFS?

> > What is your budget? 
>

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

> > > >
> >
From: Dave Cramer
Sent: Thursday, February 28, > 2013 06:09 PM
Subject: [TLUG]: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ?
> >

Looking at this for a customer.
> >
Any suggestions would be welcome.

Dave Cramer
>
>
> -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >

>
> -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 04:30:20 2013 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 23:30:20 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130228214148.GT20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228205616.GS20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130228212208.GA4439@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228214148.GT20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130301043020.GG19974@adb.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Software raid required a competent admin. I'm told that even hardware raid requires someone more clued than the datacentre simian who, on finding no written procedure to deal with a server that had started beeping, stuck a screwdriver in the beeper so it'd stop bothering them. Naturally, all this didn't come out until the screaming from HQ that accompanied the departure of that box from the network due to the eventual failure of the other drive. To that I can add the story of starting at a past new job and being told to use such-and-such a server, it's spare, for my first deployment, and after finding it had two dead drives in it eventually cornering somebody with the above about-a-year-ago story who realized it was that same box sitting in the rack abandoned as-was. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 04:49:23 2013 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 23:49:23 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130301043020.GG19974-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228205616.GS20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130228212208.GA4439@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228214148.GT20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130301043020.GG19974@adb.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Anthony de Boer wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> Software raid required a competent admin. > > I'm told that even hardware raid requires someone more clued than the > datacentre simian who, on finding no written procedure to deal with a > server that had started beeping, stuck a screwdriver in the beeper so > it'd stop bothering them. > > Naturally, all this didn't come out until the screaming from HQ that > accompanied the departure of that box from the network due to the > eventual failure of the other drive. > > To that I can add the story of starting at a past new job and being told > to use such-and-such a server, it's spare, for my first deployment, and > after finding it had two dead drives in it eventually cornering somebody > with the above about-a-year-ago story who realized it was that same box > sitting in the rack abandoned as-was. > > -- > Anthony de Boer > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists I use to design and sell NAS systems for a Living. The best way to go is get a 3U or 4U rackmount chassis with enough hot-swap bays for our size of array. You will need raid cards for sure because the onboard raid won't support all the drives you need nor will it be good enough. We use to use 3ware Cards but LSI is no longer developing them so while still available, they do provide the performance that RAID controllers. The last time I looked at raid controllers, I noticed the LSI sells SAS raid controllers, This is not an issue because the SAS controllers actually support both SAS and SATA Drives. I would get a server quality motherboard but the processor(s) don't have to be great. You will want make sure you have enough memory to serve you the files how planning to do so. I believe there's a formula for how much memory your need for each NFS client. Networking will be your bottle neck. If you are just serving one computer, you just put a 10GigE controller in each machine. If you are serving multiple machines, I would suggest getting just 10GigE controller and the GigE switch with a 10G uplink port. All in All there must be someone around who still makes these custom boxes. -- Mark Lane http://2100computerlane.net -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 06:33:10 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 01:33:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <20130301002408.GA28805-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: | From: William Park | Has anyone successfully installed Fedora-18? Yes. It's a GUI. Obvious how to use it once you know how to use it. Horrible to describe in words. I remember doing partitioning the way I wanted. It wasn't completely obvious but you have to click of icons for partitions and then change their state. The hardest part was telling which partition the icons stood for because there were no or few identifying marks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 11:00:37 2013 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 06:00:37 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228205616.GS20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130228212208.GA4439@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228214148.GT20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130301043020.GG19974@adb.ca> Message-ID: Thanks for all the answers. I'll let you know what the customer decides.... All in all the whole concept of a budget 20TB storage array doesn't make much sense. Dave Cramer On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Mark Lane wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Anthony de Boer wrote: > > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >> Software raid required a competent admin. > > > > I'm told that even hardware raid requires someone more clued than the > > datacentre simian who, on finding no written procedure to deal with a > > server that had started beeping, stuck a screwdriver in the beeper so > > it'd stop bothering them. > > > > Naturally, all this didn't come out until the screaming from HQ that > > accompanied the departure of that box from the network due to the > > eventual failure of the other drive. > > > > To that I can add the story of starting at a past new job and being told > > to use such-and-such a server, it's spare, for my first deployment, and > > after finding it had two dead drives in it eventually cornering somebody > > with the above about-a-year-ago story who realized it was that same box > > sitting in the rack abandoned as-was. > > > > -- > > Anthony de Boer > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > I use to design and sell NAS systems for a Living. The best way to go > is get a 3U or 4U rackmount chassis with enough hot-swap bays for our > size of array. You will need raid cards for sure because the onboard > raid won't support all the drives you need nor will it be good enough. > We use to use 3ware Cards but LSI is no longer developing them so > while still available, they do provide the performance that RAID > controllers. The last time I looked at raid controllers, I noticed the > LSI sells SAS raid controllers, This is not an issue because the SAS > controllers actually support both SAS and SATA Drives. > > I would get a server quality motherboard but the processor(s) don't > have to be great. You will want make sure you have enough memory to > serve you the files how planning to do so. I believe there's a formula > for how much memory your need for each NFS client. Networking will be > your bottle neck. If you are just serving one computer, you just put a > 10GigE controller in each machine. If you are serving multiple > machines, I would suggest getting just 10GigE controller and the GigE > switch with a 10G uplink port. > > All in All there must be someone around who still makes these custom boxes. > -- > Mark Lane > http://2100computerlane.net > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 14:44:15 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 09:44:15 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130228154044.GQ20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228154044.GQ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2013-02-28 10:41 AM, "Lennart Sorensen" wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:16:19AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: > > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I think > > the connection type is flexible. > > USB? Are they mad? USB is often unreliable and it is slow. I tried > connecting a 4.5TB external storage via USB because it was simple, and > it kept dropping off the bus under load a few times a day. Switching to > eSATA on the same box made it perfectly reliable and much much faster. > > USB3 should be better, but not too many machines have that yet. Could be > added of course. > > USB2 would take close to 4 days to transfer 10TB. > > Something like this might do the job: > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=14_207&item_id=040363 > > eSATA, USB3 are both nice options (and USB2 compatible should you > want to). Putting in 8x2TB or 3TB should give you 14 or 21TB storage > with RAID5. > > $400 for the box + 8 x $160 (WD Red 3TB) = $1680 for 21TB RAID5 > $400 for the box + 8 x $120 (WD Red 2TB) = $1360 for 14TB RAID5 > > A USB3 or eSATA controller if needed should be cheap. Wouldn't that be sweet connected to the Cubox? > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 18:02:45 2013 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 13:02:45 -0500 Subject: Fwd: GO Open Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5130ED45.4040503@sobac.com> I just received a note about the Ontario Open Data conference from the organizer, Albert O'Connor. I thought folks on other lists might be interested, too... -------- Original Message -------- Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 09:19:16 -0500 Subject: [OpenDataWR] GO Open Data From: Albert O'Connor To: opendatawr-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw at public.gmane.org Mailing-list: list opendatawr-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw at public.gmane.org; contact opendatawr+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw at public.gmane.org GO Open Data is the first Ontario-wide open data conference, held on Saturday, May 11, 2013 in Kitchener. Our goal is to help build the Ontario open data community by bringing together citizens, municipal staff, developers, educators and many others from across Ontario to share experiences and learn from each other. The one day conference features a keynote by Dr. Ann Cavoukian, Information and Privacy Commissioner for Ontario. James McKinney from Open North in Montreal is our first featured speaker. An expo of open data based apps and sources called Open Data Alley will be taking place during the conference. Registration is open and the early bird price is only $25! We are still accepting speaker applications until March 4th. The conference will take place at the University of Waterloo School of Pharmacy at King and Victoria, Kitchener. Registration, speaker applications, venue information and more is available on our website: http://go-opendata.ca/ -- ><><><>< Albert O'Connor - amjoconn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org albertoconnor.ca | watpy.ca | go-opendata.ca -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 20:48:22 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 12:48:22 -0800 Subject: "normal" clock drift Message-ID: What do you see as a 'regular' clock drift on your hosts. (e.g. if you ran an ntp process at 30-min intervals, how far would you expect the drift on an average machine to be?) What would be considered abnormal? -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2/DCTS/CLA "Computers don't make mistakes. They can, however, execute those provided to them very quickly" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 20:53:45 2013 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 15:53:45 -0500 Subject: "normal" clock drift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130301205345.GA19436@watson-wilson.ca> On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 12:48:22PM -0800, Tyler Aviss wrote: > What do you see as a 'regular' clock drift on your hosts. > (e.g. if you ran an ntp process at 30-min intervals, how far would you > expect the drift on an average machine to be?) Why would you run NTP like that? Ntpd is meant to run continuously. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 21:01:42 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 16:01:42 -0500 Subject: "normal" clock drift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > What do you see as a 'regular' clock drift on your hosts. > (e.g. if you ran an ntp process at 30-min intervals, how far would you > expect the drift on an average machine to be?) > > What would be considered abnormal? My phone regularly drifts by ~1s; the ClockSync app often adjusts, when it gets onto a network, by around 1s. I don't see any bumps in my logs at home lately; I would expect fairly similar drift on an undisciplined clock (e.g. - one not regularly getting touched by a continuous NTP daemon). The crystals commonly on PC clocks aren't spectacularly precise, and things have cheapened since the "real UNIX(tm) server days", where the vendors *sometimes* paid attention to clock precision. If you care about precise time, you really should install ntpd, and have it continuously discipline your clock, as you can surely, on modern hardware, afford the ~1MB of RSS consumed by ntpd. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 21:44:22 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 16:44:22 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130228203513.GA30920-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130301214421.GA8731@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 03:35:13PM -0500, William Park wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:16:19AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: > > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I > > think the connection type is flexible. > > 1. > 8-bay USB3 external from Mediasonic. > > 2. Get a motherboard with 8+ SATA ports and NFS mount. Since this is > stand-alone system, they need to know how to maintain it, or pay for > support. 3. Pre-built 8-bay embedded Linux box from QNAP. Probably, least amount of work for you and your client. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 22:20:40 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 17:20:40 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130301005925.73A0CA2D9E-MHjupGqSvN5g9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130301005925.73A0CA2D9E@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: <20130301222040.GV20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 12:59:08AM +0000, Syed Faisal Akber wrote: >
I don't think that you'll see anything that large for USB. Try looking at the Drobo.

Faisal

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: Dave Cramer
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 07:16 PM
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Reply To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage > array ?

Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I think the connection type is flexible.

Dave Cramer
>

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Syed Faisal Akber <faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
How do you want to connect to it? 
> > iSCSI, FC, or NFS?

> > What is your budget? 
>

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

> > > >
> >
From: Dave Cramer
Sent: Thursday, February 28, > 2013 06:09 PM
Subject: [TLUG]: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ?
> >

Looking at this for a customer.
> >
Any suggestions would be welcome.

Dave Cramer
>
>
> -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >

>
> -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Notice the line above saying "No HTML"? I can't read that mess. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 22:21:53 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 17:21:53 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228154044.GQ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130301222153.GW20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 09:44:15AM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Wouldn't that be sweet connected to the Cubox? I spent enough money on high tech toys last year... :) But yes it would. Of course it would take a lot more space than the cubox does by itself. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 22:24:42 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 17:24:42 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130301214421.GA8731-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301214421.GA8731@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130301222442.GX20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 04:44:22PM -0500, William Park wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 03:35:13PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:16:19AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: > > > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I > > > think the connection type is flexible. > > > > 1. > > 8-bay USB3 external from Mediasonic. > > > > 2. Get a motherboard with 8+ SATA ports and NFS mount. Since this is > > stand-alone system, they need to know how to maintain it, or pay for > > support. > > 3. > Pre-built 8-bay embedded Linux box from QNAP. Probably, least > amount of work for you and your client. But gigabit is so slow. Now if all you want is a fileserver for a network, then sure. But if you want decent performance disk for a server, then it's a crappy option. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 22:26:58 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 17:26:58 -0500 Subject: "normal" clock drift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130301222658.GY20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 04:01:42PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > My phone regularly drifts by ~1s; the ClockSync app often adjusts, > when it gets onto a > network, by around 1s. > > I don't see any bumps in my logs at home lately; I would expect fairly > similar drift on > an undisciplined clock (e.g. - one not regularly getting touched by a > continuous NTP > daemon). The crystals commonly on PC clocks aren't spectacularly precise, and > things have cheapened since the "real UNIX(tm) server days", where the vendors > *sometimes* paid attention to clock precision. > > If you care about precise time, you really should install ntpd, and have it > continuously discipline your clock, as you can surely, on modern > hardware, afford > the ~1MB of RSS consumed by ntpd. ntpd running continuously certainly works most of the time. I have only encountered one system where that didn't work. ntpd declared the sytem unusable. It's clock drifted 5 to 10 minutes per day, and not in any consistent direction. Everytime ntpd thought it had the drift right, it would overshoot and have to change directions. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 22:29:21 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 17:29:21 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <20130301002408.GA28805-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:24:08PM -0500, William Park wrote: > My God, what kind of incantation do I have to recite in order to install > Fedora-18? I can't get past "partition selection". Fedora-18's > partition selection is totally different from previous Fedora or any > other distro. > > Has anyone successfully installed Fedora-18? Well the one fedora fan at work installed fedora-18, then went looking for a new distribution and is now running mint. Haven't convinced him to go debian yet, but at least he is on a .deb based system now that cares what the users want in a system. :) Fedora-18 seems to be having a lot of users going "WTF?" at it. So good luck. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 1 22:40:23 2013 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 17:40:23 -0500 Subject: "normal" clock drift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > If you care about precise time, you really should install ntpd ... > > Absolutely. It's hardly worth worrying about clock precision any more, though there may be weird cases (like Lennart's) where it won't work. I'm semi-seriously considering adding either GPS or rubidium oscillator time conditioning to one of my machines. Both are surprisingly cheap ($100-ish for the bare hardware), but each has its own disadvantages. GPS needs a skyview to produce a meaningful PPS signal. A rubidium atom clock uses a hefty amount of power, gets just a /little/ warm, and has a finite operating life. Decisions, decisions, ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 2 20:41:02 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 15:41:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: good deal for monitor (today-only) Message-ID: 21.5" monitor at MemoryExpress.com for $109.99 + 4.99 shipping Why do I think that this is good? IPS (In Plane Switching) LCD is much better than TN, the normal inexpensive LCD technology. The best prices for IPS monitors are usually closer to $200 rather than $100. 1920x1080, the highest mainstream resolution. Almost assumed these days. LED backlight. More efficient than CFL, but fairly common these days Three inputs: HDMI, DVI-D, and D-Sub. Of course it would be nice if it had even more inputs, but this is generous for this low price. Headphone out (surely only for sound coming from HDMI). No built-in speaker, but still useful. Many monitors have no provision for sound. Note: I've not seen this monitor. It might actually have a horrible picture. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 3 08:07:39 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 03:07:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: chipset fan on VIA KT400 Message-ID: I have an old motherboard: GA-7VAXP It's in my MythTV backend and has been running for years. In recent years, the chipset fan has vibrated badly for the first few minutes after it is turned on (rare, since it is hardly ever turned off). Now it won't stop buzzing. So I've removed the fan, leaving the heatsink (while the system was live!). The heatsink on the chipset doesn't seem very warm to the touch. Does anyone know if the KT400 northbridge (or is it the 8235 southbridge? I don't think so.) actually needs active cooling? Or was the fan there just to make the thing look cool? (See the picture: the fan's cover has a big "8X" emblazoned on it.) Overclockers talked about this chipset 10 years ago. They thought that cooling was a must for overclocking. I'm not overclocking. I guess I'll find out soon. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 3 14:48:11 2013 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 09:48:11 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <20130301222921.GZ20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:24:08PM -0500, William Park wrote: >> My God, what kind of incantation do I have to recite in order to install >> Fedora-18? I can't get past "partition selection". Fedora-18's >> partition selection is totally different from previous Fedora or any >> other distro. >> >> Has anyone successfully installed Fedora-18? > > Well the one fedora fan at work installed fedora-18, then went looking > for a new distribution and is now running mint. Haven't convinced him > to go debian yet, but at least he is on a .deb based system now that > cares what the users want in a system. :) > > Fedora-18 seems to be having a lot of users going "WTF?" at it. > > So good luck. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists If you use LVM it didn't seem to allow you to pick what drives certain mount points were on. It just makes a JBOD out of the disks you pick. I had an SSD and platter drive so I definitely want to choose where to make mount points. So I just turned LVM off. LVM is nice if you need to resize stuff later but otherwise really isn't needed. Another option is to partition the drive before hand though I am not sure the installer supports that. The other issue I had though probably not unique to FC18, was installing the fglrx drivers. I tried the prebuild modules from rpmfusion but they didn't work so I installed the kernel source and used the akmod-fglrx packages to rebuild the modules. That got video working but broke my network adaptor. So I had to uninstall the akmod-fglrx packages (they are only need to build the driver) just so networking would work again. Don't ask me how rpmfusion messed up packages for building modules so much that networking didn't work. So I have the fglrx drivers installed but the story doesn't end here. I install catalyst so that I can setup my dual monitor. However apparently fglrx Xinerama doesn't work with 3D acceleration so I had to turn that off and use xrandr to configure my dual monitors. It didn't stop there. I have steam installed and wanted to try and run Counter Strike on my new FC18 box. It claimed it couldn't find one of the libgl files. After 2 hours of search, I found out that the problem was I only installed the 64 bit version of libgl and it was looking for the 32Bit version. So I played for the better part of the day to get FC18 installed properly and I'm a Linux Expert. We aren't going to get people to move to Linux if it this complicated. My current procedure for updating my kernel is: 1) Install new kernel and kernel sources 2) Reboot to boot to runlevel 3 3) Install akmod-fglrx 4) Rebuilt fglrx kernel modules 5) uninstall akmod-fglrx 6) reboot Do you expect some noobie to do that? -- Mark Lane http://2100computerlane.net -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 3 17:24:34 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 12:24:34 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130303172434.GA26825@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Mar 03, 2013 at 09:48:11AM -0500, Mark Lane wrote: > If you use LVM it didn't seem to allow you to pick what drives certain > mount points were on. It just makes a JBOD out of the disks you pick. > I had an SSD and platter drive so I definitely want to choose where to > make mount points. So I just turned LVM off. LVM is nice if you need > to resize stuff later but otherwise really isn't needed. Another > option is to partition the drive before hand though I am not sure the > installer supports that. I choose "standard partition", and I wanted to install to a partition which already has Fedora-17. I usually install to harddisk using QEMU and then run from the disk. If I install to a file image, I can't test the hardware. Anyway, I successfully installed Fedora-18 to clean file image, letting it format as it wished. Pretty much the same as Fedora-17... but, I don't run Fedora daily. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 3 17:42:04 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 12:42:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Mark Lane | The other issue I had though probably not unique to FC18, was | installing the fglrx drivers. My understanding is that Fedora isn't interested in supporting non-free drivers. I also understand that ATI's binary drivers don't quickly follow kernel changes. Since Fedora trys to adopt upstream kernels promptly, you end up with a problem. One that recurs. Ubuntu does try to support non-free drivers. If you want to use the nVidia or ATI video drivers, try Ubuntu before Fedora. That's what I do: on my desktop, I use open drivers and Fedora; on my media machines, I use Ubuntu. Even so, Ubuntu still has problems. "Jockey" completely screwed up on my nettop with an AMD E-350. For about a year! | It didn't stop there. I have steam installed and wanted to try and run | Counter Strike on my new FC18 box. It claimed it couldn't find one of | the libgl files. After 2 hours of search, I found out that the problem | was I only installed the 64 bit version of libgl and it was looking | for the 32Bit version. Fedora is really not designed for binaries from other origins. It works with source code from other sources. I'd have imagined Counter Strike and Steam were built primarily for Ubuntu (I haven't checked) since that is the most popular distro and is more binary-driver friendly that Fedora. Luckily I'm not a gamer. Steam would be temmpting. But I don't trust it from a security standpoint. | My current procedure for updating my kernel is: | | 1) Install new kernel and kernel sources | 2) Reboot to boot to runlevel 3 | 3) Install akmod-fglrx | 4) Rebuilt fglrx kernel modules | 5) uninstall akmod-fglrx | 6) reboot | | Do you expect some noobie to do that? Thanks very much for the roadmap. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 3 17:47:36 2013 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 12:47:36 -0500 Subject: chipset fan on VIA KT400 In-Reply-To: <513385E5.4090608-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <513385E5.4090608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51338CB8.4060809@gmail.com> Hi Hugh, > So I've removed the fan, leaving the heatsink (while the system was > live!). The heatsink on the chipset doesn't seem very warm to the touch. This looks identical to the salvage ATI fans that Active Surplus have for about $2-3. The one I use for another project runs very quietly. They're bright red and have a flashy ATI logo, which may or may not work for you ... cheers, Stewart [reposted to the list at Hugh's request] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 3 19:22:31 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 14:22:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: chipset fan on VIA KT400 In-Reply-To: <5133939D.6010405-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5133939D.6010405@rogers.com> Message-ID: DCB mailed a reply to the list and to me. As in the past, the one to the list disappeared so I'm taking the liberty of posting it for him: | From: David Collier-Brown | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | Cc: D. Hugh Redelmeier | Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 13:17:01 -0500 | Subject: Re: [TLUG]: chipset fan on VIA KT400 | Reply-To: davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org | | On 03/03/2013 03:07 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > I have an old motherboard: GA-7VAXP | > | > | > It's in my MythTV backend and has been running for years. In recent | > years, the chipset fan has vibrated badly for the first few minutes after | > it is turned on (rare, since it is hardly ever turned off). | > | > Now it won't stop buzzing. | > | > So I've removed the fan, leaving the heatsink (while the system was | > live!). The heatsink on the chipset doesn't seem very warm to the touch. | > | > Does anyone know if the KT400 northbridge (or is it the 8235 southbridge? | > I don't think so.) actually needs active cooling? Or was the fan there | > just to make the thing look cool? (See the picture: the fan's cover has a | > big "8X" emblazoned on it.) | > | > Overclockers talked about this chipset 10 years ago. They thought that | > cooling was a must for overclocking. I'm not overclocking. | > | > I guess I'll find out soon. | > -- | > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ | > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns | > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists | > | There may be a readable temperature indicator on the chip, despite its | age. If so, you can probably read it with moderate privilege... | | --dave | | -- | David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify | System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest | davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org | -- Mark Twain | (416) 223-8968 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 3 20:38:14 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 15:38:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: chipset fan on VIA KT400 In-Reply-To: References: <5133939D.6010405@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: David Collier-Brown | There may be a readable temperature indicator on the chip, despite its | age. If so, you can probably read it with moderate privilege... Thanks. That sent me on a couple of hours' quest through lm_sensors and settings for a ten year old motherboard (hint: in 10 years, the config language has changed slightly, and so has the character set). CPU core: +1.68 V (min = +1.66 V, max = +1.84 V) DDRAM: +1.34 V (min = +1.17 V, max = +1.33 V) ALARM 3v3 I/O: +3.33 V (min = +3.14 V, max = +3.47 V) +5V: +4.93 V (min = +4.76 V, max = +5.26 V) +12V: +12.10 V (min = +11.39 V, max = +12.61 V) -12V: -12.81 V (min = -7.17 V, max = -16.76 V) -5V: -8.29 V (min = -2.48 V, max = -10.02 V) Stdby: +5.17 V (min = +4.76 V, max = +5.26 V) CPU Fan: 2343 RPM (min = 1599 RPM, div = 4) BOX Fan: 0 RPM (min = 897 RPM, div = 8) ALARM IT87 Temp: +44.0\302\260C (low = +15.0\302\260C, high = +55.0\302\260C) sensor = thermistor I don't actually know where the thermistor is. Some overclockers were saying that it is closer to the KT400 chip than the CPU. Some of the voltages look questionable. But maybe the readings are wrong and maybe the specs of my actual components differ from what the config file specifies. Of course a bad voltage could explain why one of the TV tuners in this box (out of four) wasn't working properly. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 3 21:52:09 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:52:09 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a Cubox? Message-ID: The instructions for using the Cubox installer are written by retards, and I no longer have any interest in running in circles trying to accomplish something that probably isn't even worthwhile, or that I could probably find in a finished product for about $50. Whatever you want to pay, I'll take the highest offer for this piece of shit. I'm buying a Mac. I'm done with this hacker bullshit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 3 22:03:49 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:03:49 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a Cubox? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately the Cubox doesn't even work any more. Apparently plugging in a USB key as the instructions suggested with a new microsd card have now ruined the device. I put the old microsd back in but it doesn't boot. Good job guys, fantastic device. Nice knowin yall but I'm done with this bullshit. When I can pay a thousand bucks and just have everything I want, hacking around with Linux is just retarded. On 2013-03-03 4:52 PM, "Thomas Milne" wrote: > The instructions for using the Cubox installer are written by retards, and > I no longer have any interest in running in circles trying to accomplish > something that probably isn't even worthwhile, or that I could probably > find in a finished product for about $50. > > Whatever you want to pay, I'll take the highest offer for this piece of > shit. I'm buying a Mac. I'm done with this hacker bullshit. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 00:05:01 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:05:01 -0800 Subject: Anyone want a Cubox? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you can't post to a public forum and use common decency, please don't bother. I'm sure any future HR department googling you will be happy to read your rant in the permanent archives, though. Whether or not time spent on this so-called "hacker bullshit" is for you, common decency wouldn't have cost you more than a few seconds thought before posting. On Mar 3, 2013 2:04 PM, "Thomas Milne" wrote: > Unfortunately the Cubox doesn't even work any more. > > Apparently plugging in a USB key as the instructions suggested with a new > microsd card have now ruined the device. I put the old microsd back in but > it doesn't boot. > > Good job guys, fantastic device. > > Nice knowin yall but I'm done with this bullshit. When I can pay a > thousand bucks and just have everything I want, hacking around with Linux > is just retarded. > On 2013-03-03 4:52 PM, "Thomas Milne" > wrote: > >> The instructions for using the Cubox installer are written by retards, >> and I no longer have any interest in running in circles trying to >> accomplish something that probably isn't even worthwhile, or that I could >> probably find in a finished product for about $50. >> >> Whatever you want to pay, I'll take the highest offer for this piece of >> shit. I'm buying a Mac. I'm done with this hacker bullshit. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 04:08:07 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 23:08:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone want a Cubox? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Thomas Milne | Unfortunately the Cubox doesn't even work any more. | | Apparently plugging in a USB key as the instructions suggested with a new | microsd card have now ruined the device. I put the old microsd back in but | it doesn't boot. That sounds odd. The device specs don't suggest that there is any state in the device to screw up past a power cycle. All the state lives in external stuff (MicroSD card and disks). Were you reflashing the boot ROM? That surely is internal state. | Good job guys, fantastic device. It sounds like you are addressing us, but I presume that you are really addressing Solid Run. | Nice knowin yall but I'm done with this bullshit. Again, it sounds like you are addressing us. And that you are unhappy with how we've treated you. In fact, we've tried to be helpful. | When I can pay a thousand | bucks and just have everything I want, hacking around with Linux is just | retarded. I agree: if the cost of everything you want is a thousand dollars, you'd be a fool to do anything else. I cannot imagine a thousand dollar purchase satisfying all my wants. As far as hacking around, I find Windows is harder to bend to my will than Linux. The only advantage of Windows is that most battles are short, (leading to my defeat); my battles with Linux are generally longer but I win most of them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 05:00:10 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 21:00:10 -0800 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: I'm fairly happy with "mint" at the moment. I haven't upgraded a mint distro yet, but the version I'm on seems to smooth out some of the issues or rough edges people commonly have with Ubuntu. Other than Debian though, I haven't seem many distros handle installing to (or accessing from livecd) LVM volumes without some degree of pain. MD-RAID+LVM is particularly annoying. After install, make sure to access the chroot, install lvm2, add to the modules file (both /etc and the initramfs-tools one) and update-initrd | From: Mark Lane | The other issue I had though probably not unique to FC18, was | installing the fglrx drivers. My understanding is that Fedora isn't interested in supporting non-free drivers. I also understand that ATI's binary drivers don't quickly follow kernel changes. Since Fedora trys to adopt upstream kernels promptly, you end up with a problem. One that recurs. Ubuntu does try to support non-free drivers. If you want to use the nVidia or ATI video drivers, try Ubuntu before Fedora. That's what I do: on my desktop, I use open drivers and Fedora; on my media machines, I use Ubuntu. Even so, Ubuntu still has problems. "Jockey" completely screwed up on my nettop with an AMD E-350. For about a year! | It didn't stop there. I have steam installed and wanted to try and run | Counter Strike on my new FC18 box. It claimed it couldn't find one of | the libgl files. After 2 hours of search, I found out that the problem | was I only installed the 64 bit version of libgl and it was looking | for the 32Bit version. Fedora is really not designed for binaries from other origins. It works with source code from other sources. I'd have imagined Counter Strike and Steam were built primarily for Ubuntu (I haven't checked) since that is the most popular distro and is more binary-driver friendly that Fedora. Luckily I'm not a gamer. Steam would be temmpting. But I don't trust it from a security standpoint. | My current procedure for updating my kernel is: | | 1) Install new kernel and kernel sources | 2) Reboot to boot to runlevel 3 | 3) Install akmod-fglrx | 4) Rebuilt fglrx kernel modules | 5) uninstall akmod-fglrx | 6) reboot | | Do you expect some noobie to do that? Thanks very much for the roadmap. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 15:32:50 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:32:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Tyler Aviss Please be more careful with your quoting. 1) top posting is very wasteful of your reader's time. 2) in this case, you made no distinction between your text and the quoted text. 3) your quoted text was missing attribution to the extent that it looked as if it was attributed to the indirectly quoted source. The actual contents of your post was useful and I thank you for it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 16:12:57 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 08:12:57 -0800 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 7:32 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Tyler Aviss > > Please be more careful with your quoting. > > 1) top posting is very wasteful of your reader's time. > > 2) in this case, you made no distinction between your text and the > quoted text. > > 3) your quoted text was missing attribution to the extent that it > looked as if it was attributed to the indirectly quoted source. > > The actual contents of your post was useful and I thank you for it. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Do you - or anyone on here - know how to make the Android email client *not* top-post. The default behavior seems to be to top-post and then optionally quote the original message text. The only way to avoid this appears to be to use "respond inline" and then scroll down. Actually responding "in-line" is a bit messy with smaller devices such as phones. It would be nice if bottom-posting was a configurable default. I've heard good things about k9mail, and that bottom-posting is an option. Thoughts? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 16:42:27 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 11:42:27 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130304164227.GB20808@waltdnes.org> On Sun, Mar 03, 2013 at 09:48:11AM -0500, Mark Lane wrote > So I played for the better part of the day to get FC18 installed > properly and I'm a Linux Expert. We aren't going to get people to move > to Linux if it this complicated. > > My current procedure for updating my kernel is: > > 1) Install new kernel and kernel sources > 2) Reboot to boot to runlevel 3 > 3) Install akmod-fglrx > 4) Rebuilt fglrx kernel modules > 5) uninstall akmod-fglrx > 6) reboot > > Do you expect some noobie to do that? Installing *ANY* OS is subject to booby-traps. Give some noobie a Windows install CD and a a new system with a blank hard drive, and see how far he gets. Windows' advantage is that it comes pre-installed. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 17:38:49 2013 From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 12:38:49 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a Cubox? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > The instructions for using the Cubox installer are written by retards, and I > no longer have any interest in running in circles trying to accomplish > something that probably isn't even worthwhile, or that I could probably find > in a finished product for about $50. > No need to flame out, dude. The instructions are written for developers. It's a development system. If you want a black box with "features" you should go to a big box store. No disrespect intended - it's just a different audience / market. The instructions are on the wiki. They're not the easiest to parse if you don't have the background. And even if you do, such bleeding-edge devices are often not quite completely documented. > Whatever you want to pay, I'll take the highest offer for this piece of > shit. I'm buying a Mac. I'm done with this hacker bullshit. Don't lose heart. Recognize that the "hacker" mindset is one that considers exactly such an incompletely documented, slightly mysterious, little gizmo to be exactly the kind of puzzle that they are willing to spend hours and hours trying to figure out. If you're not such a person, so what? There's no need to get upset. The cubox is a nifty little gizmo, and I'm effectively running one as a server box. Debian runs on it. If you care, puzzle over the wiki for a bit, especially the bits about the boot loader and provisioning an OS on the SD card. Cheers, The Pluimber -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 17:54:05 2013 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 12:54:05 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a Cubox? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How much are you selling it for? On Mar 4, 2013 12:39 PM, "Mike" wrote: > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Thomas Milne > wrote: > > The instructions for using the Cubox installer are written by retards, > and I > > no longer have any interest in running in circles trying to accomplish > > something that probably isn't even worthwhile, or that I could probably > find > > in a finished product for about $50. > > > > No need to flame out, dude. The instructions are written for > developers. It's a development system. If you want a black box with > "features" you should go to a big box store. No disrespect intended - > it's just a different audience / market. > > The instructions are on the wiki. They're not the easiest to parse if > you don't have the background. And even if you do, such bleeding-edge > devices are often not quite completely documented. > > > Whatever you want to pay, I'll take the highest offer for this piece of > > shit. I'm buying a Mac. I'm done with this hacker bullshit. > > Don't lose heart. Recognize that the "hacker" mindset is one that > considers exactly such an incompletely documented, slightly > mysterious, little gizmo to be exactly the kind of puzzle that they > are willing to spend hours and hours trying to figure out. > > If you're not such a person, so what? There's no need to get upset. > > The cubox is a nifty little gizmo, and I'm effectively running one as > a server box. Debian runs on it. If you care, puzzle over the wiki for > a bit, especially the bits about the boot loader and provisioning an > OS on the SD card. > > Cheers, > The Pluimber > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 19:46:46 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:46:46 -0500 Subject: chipset fan on VIA KT400 In-Reply-To: References: <5133939D.6010405@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20130304194646.GA20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Mar 03, 2013 at 03:38:14PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: David Collier-Brown > > | There may be a readable temperature indicator on the chip, despite its > | age. If so, you can probably read it with moderate privilege... > > Thanks. That sent me on a couple of hours' quest through lm_sensors > and settings for a ten year old motherboard (hint: in 10 years, the > config language has changed slightly, and so has the character set). > > CPU core: +1.68 V (min = +1.66 V, max = +1.84 V) > DDRAM: +1.34 V (min = +1.17 V, max = +1.33 V) ALARM > 3v3 I/O: +3.33 V (min = +3.14 V, max = +3.47 V) > +5V: +4.93 V (min = +4.76 V, max = +5.26 V) > +12V: +12.10 V (min = +11.39 V, max = +12.61 V) > -12V: -12.81 V (min = -7.17 V, max = -16.76 V) > -5V: -8.29 V (min = -2.48 V, max = -10.02 V) > Stdby: +5.17 V (min = +4.76 V, max = +5.26 V) > CPU Fan: 2343 RPM (min = 1599 RPM, div = 4) > BOX Fan: 0 RPM (min = 897 RPM, div = 8) ALARM > IT87 Temp: +44.0\302\260C (low = +15.0\302\260C, high = +55.0\302\260C) sensor = thermistor > > I don't actually know where the thermistor is. Some overclockers were > saying that it is closer to the KT400 chip than the CPU. > > Some of the voltages look questionable. But maybe the readings are > wrong and maybe the specs of my actual components differ from what the > config file specifies. > > Of course a bad voltage could explain why one of the TV tuners in this > box (out of four) wasn't working properly. Unless you have the config correct for your board with all the right parameters, you won't get correct voltage readings. In fact most of them look good. The -12V could be that off because nothing is using it (which often makes the voltage regulator not do a good job),which could also explain the -5V. Neither of those is actually used in most systems (but are part of the PCI standard and hence have to be supported even if almost no PCI card ever uses them). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 20:00:49 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 15:00:49 -0500 Subject: good deal for monitor (today-only) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130304200049.GB20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Mar 02, 2013 at 03:41:02PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > 21.5" monitor at MemoryExpress.com for $109.99 + 4.99 shipping > > Why do I think that this is good? > > IPS (In Plane Switching) LCD is much better than TN, the normal > inexpensive LCD technology. The best prices for IPS monitors are usually > closer to $200 rather than $100. Well it appears from what I can find to be e-IPS, which is nowhere near as nice as the full IPS, but still beats TN. Real IPS also costs a lot more than e-IPS, which is why some screens now use it. See http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/panel_technologies_content.htm#e-ips for en explanation of the difference it makes. Note that E-IPS and e-IPS are not the same thing. > 1920x1080, the highest mainstream resolution. Almost assumed these days. I still want 1920x1200 24" or better for a desktop display. I will tolerate 1920x1080 on my laptop. > LED backlight. More efficient than CFL, but fairly common these days > > Three inputs: HDMI, DVI-D, and D-Sub. Of course it would be nice if it > had even more inputs, but this is generous for this low price. Yeah more inputs adds to the cost. > Headphone out (surely only for sound coming from HDMI). No > built-in speaker, but still useful. Many monitors have no provision for > sound. For sure. > Note: I've not seen this monitor. It might actually have a horrible > picture. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 20:23:27 2013 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 15:23:27 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <513502BF.1030405@dinamis.com> On 03/04/2013 10:32 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Tyler Aviss > > Please be more careful with your quoting. > > 1) top posting is very wasteful of your reader's time. This is one of very few email addresses to which I send email where people are fussy about top vs bottom posting. I've given up on convincing people of the merits of bottom posting or replying inline because so many people who use mobile devices or aren't familiar with these practices have told me, "You sent me an email but you didn't say anything." They didn't think to scroll down to read. Except to this and another list, I top post and I use HTML email. I could insist that the rest of the world conform to what I think is right (bottom or inline posting - no HTML) and have many of my emails ignored or, I can just do what the majority of people do, which is top post and use HTML email to emphasize things. Giving up being right has my emails read by more people. :) -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3230 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 4 21:14:43 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 16:14:43 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <513502BF.1030405-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <513502BF.1030405@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20130304211443.GC20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Mar 04, 2013 at 03:23:27PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > This is one of very few email addresses to which I send email where > people are fussy about top vs bottom posting. I've given up on > convincing people of the merits of bottom posting or replying inline > because so many people who use mobile devices or aren't familiar with > these practices have told me, "You sent me an email but you didn't say > anything." They didn't think to scroll down to read. Except to this and > another list, I top post and I use HTML email. I could insist that the > rest of the world conform to what I think is right (bottom or inline > posting - no HTML) and have many of my emails ignored or, I can just do > what the majority of people do, which is top post and use HTML email to > emphasize things. Giving up being right has my emails read by more > people. :) Well some of us have enough email from various mailing lists to follow, that a GUI email client simply doesn't work. If you send HTML and can't be bothered to use multipart with a text version too, then I simply won't read what you write. Probably wasn't important if it was only HTML anyhow. :) Your plain text bottom post might not be read by everyone, but it probably will be read by the people that will reply with something useful. I doubt you would have gotten useful input from those that don't understand scrolling to read an email. I have a hard time imagining anyone seriously using a phone to compose anything useful email wise, but I guess all those blackberry users would disagree with me. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 00:12:55 2013 From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 19:12:55 -0500 Subject: chipset fan on VIA KT400 Message-ID: <20130305001255.324900@gmx.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: D. Hugh Redelmeier > Sent: 03/03/13 03:07 AM > > I have an old motherboard: GA-7VAXP > > > Does anyone know if the KT400 northbridge (or is it the 8235 southbridge? > I don't think so.) actually needs active cooling? Or was the fan there > just to make the thing look cool? (See the picture: the fan's cover has a > big "8X" emblazoned on it.) I believe that from that era, it was the nforce chipsets that produced tons of heat, The fan might have been there because of being cheaper than a decent size heatsink, and a better failsafe against lots of dust and bad airflow. Or, putting those two things together, it might have looked inadequate compared to nforce boards, but even some of those had passive cooling, albeit with pretty solid heatsinks. If you were willing to replace the heatsink on that ... like, if you think it might be a good idea to get some practice, and try it to see what the result would be, a 4 x 4 x 2.5 cm heatsink, or even something of similar size and weirder shape, should work well. Anyone trying out sawwing down a bigger heatsink, be careful not to hurt yourself! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 15:32:37 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 10:32:37 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Mar 04, 2013 at 10:32:50AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > 1) top posting is very wasteful of your reader's time. Actually, top posting is useful when you're replying to the whole email, containing disorganized rambling points spread over entire email body. Also, top posting is better when you want to record of the entire conversation. You just have to know when to cut the quoting and start afresh. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 16:03:19 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:03:19 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <20130305153237.GB32756-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 10:32:37AM -0500, William Park wrote: > Actually, top posting is useful when you're replying to the whole email, > containing disorganized rambling points spread over entire email body. > Also, top posting is better when you want to record of the entire > conversation. You just have to know when to cut the quoting and start > afresh. The entire conversation in reverse order. It never has been very readable, and always becomes very unclear as soon as it is a reply to anything discussing multiple things. How do you tell what parts you are replying to? You can save the entire conversation by never deleting anything and just quoting every time. That is readable, and maintains order, and makes it clear what you are replying to inline. Of course most people don't want to have the entire conversation repeated in every email. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 16:16:13 2013 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:16:13 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <20130305160319.GD20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 11:03 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > You can save the entire conversation by never deleting anything and just > quoting every time. That is readable, and maintains order, and makes > it clear what you are replying to inline. But how easy is this to set up once Fedora 18 finishes installing? Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 17:34:28 2013 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 12:34:28 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <20130305160319.GD20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <51362CA4.4000003@sobac.com> I read every message in the TLUG list. As I read and delete each message, it is far better to have the new content at the top, where it is immediately visible. I've already read the quoted reply text contained in the current message (because I just finished reading the previous message), so there's no need to repeat it to provide context. But keeping that quoted reply text is still important in case I want to save that message independently of the message thread, so don't just reply with an otherwise blank message, but keep the previous conversation below your reply. Bottom posting is especially obnoxious for people who use screen readers. They can't just visually skip over the previous reply text, they have to sit through an entire recitation, even when they've just heard it in the previous message. Yes, there's "skip to end", but that's prone to missing interspersed replies. Interspersing your replies with the previous message is useful if you're replying to only a small portion of the previous message. In that case, copy the portion of the message you're replying to at the top of your message, write your reply below it, and then keep the entire original message below that, possibly with duplicated portions. In today's world the argument of wasting bandwidth by including the orginal message is no longer valid. Have a look at the raw, unformatted message -- I'll bet the message headers (with list headers, anti-spam headers, DKIM headers, and the chain of received headers) is often larger than the content of the message. And anyone who's ever listened to a podcast or watched a YouTube video has plenty of bandwidth, and no cause to complain about using few extra KB to include the full reply text. And finally, I just want to voice the observation that all the complaints I ever see about top posting vs. bottom posting are invariably started by bottom-posters complaining about top posting. People who top-post never complain about the bottom-posters or interspersers. Why is that? --Bob. On 13-03-05 11:03 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 10:32:37AM -0500, William Park wrote: >> Actually, top posting is useful when you're replying to the whole email, >> containing disorganized rambling points spread over entire email body. >> Also, top posting is better when you want to record of the entire >> conversation. You just have to know when to cut the quoting and start >> afresh. > The entire conversation in reverse order. It never has been very > readable, and always becomes very unclear as soon as it is a reply to > anything discussing multiple things. How do you tell what parts you > are replying to? > > You can save the entire conversation by never deleting anything and just > quoting every time. That is readable, and maintains order, and makes > it clear what you are replying to inline. > > Of course most people don't want to have the entire conversation repeated > in every email. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 17:59:20 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 12:59:20 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <51362CA4.4000003-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51362CA4.4000003@sobac.com> Message-ID: <51363278.4030500@utoronto.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > And finally, I just want to voice the observation that all the > complaints I ever see about top posting vs. bottom posting are > invariably started by bottom-posters complaining about top posting. > People who top-post never complain about the bottom-posters or > interspersers. Why is that? Because when you trample all over an established list convention without caring about maintaining a modicum of readability, it's easy to forget about everyone else who explicitly ask for and expect bottom posting and interspersed replies. Jamon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRNjJ3AAoJEDJp9n+rTckFiswP/jVoqnhYVXlnRE2yJcVJ+HlA 0xT/dBynmn/s4iEr/PI1aG9fhU6rrWOaQPD9NsNjWbT0jLU1Q0CrDoeelsbt8BXs XwXSUJxnPBbVmB6QWZ59MGBBsBzk7/AgHWXJgZ8WdP476m5HDwjwd6BExI74gKqQ 6WsO9pD6o/Uaz4wsPTCRojscYrRwQmHujRY+oXcNb0U61Z93pgqrycjr+z1/gtHx hbQUtgRrzKgOJ6SPFWylUiZY83qLUyhXVfXd6bB+RcP4AV3DpOEFKvONTYqx38yU zSptzlFRJoonOxYNPemYO7j1f+DQ1JXHPENn6ePA4RmRzSd+F3ibVJ6RA7m85Ol2 Wgg/HhpaooJyjKuEYsWPh7XGHgCHtgMSnG6M0OtN3zVgsKNfy8dfhVtsj00RXAZi +EZDS1p8NWJ00hcs3BxR64eVYTXwHBRgYOL+Ev8PJGOjId59IDtbSuRVJzFwVzMd doHIv/4P6CeRhWYW/mRhs8D5Qb2qB8NMte7/8yuJXPRLKHNPvzAqgmNhUfTAF+w1 izgTax+ZX2ZRqJ5i6dLHSF6iwYjwxFUkYxHqjQqorfDT88DTNSgEOsFsUqtpvDoT QoSph9FHopXkmB2ux/X0J1ZoRwQxaJGlaeXi8hkYwxF5UfbBN13VrrArHua08c1a y/wFz1cw4qYJ+1XrrQuc =sGyL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 19:03:34 2013 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 16:03:34 -0300 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <51362CA4.4000003-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51362CA4.4000003@sobac.com> Message-ID: I think we already deviated way too far from the original topic... Installing Fedora is a pain, and going thru it until the end is a proof someone is a very loyal Fedorist, and should receive an medal, and should add "I installed Fedora 'till the end!' to the default mail signature. People left and right are complaining about the messed up installer, like if four or more guys created the installer together, but without communicating with each other. I don't installed it myself, I am judging for the screenshots and comments I saw. I have Ubuntu on my notebook, Mint on my desktop, RedHat and Suse on my clients' mainframes, sort-of-Debian on my chumby hacker board, and on my RasPi, OpenBSD on my firewall, and those installers look sane. Even the minimal text-based Gentoo installer looks more user friendly than Fedora's, as it doesn't keep consistency between tasks and icons. Mauro http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. 2013/3/5 Bob Jonkman > I read every message in the TLUG list. As I read and delete each > message, it is far better to have the new content at the top, where it > is immediately visible. I've already read the quoted reply text > contained in the current message (because I just finished reading the > previous message), so there's no need to repeat it to provide context. > But keeping that quoted reply text is still important in case I want to > save that message independently of the message thread, so don't just > reply with an otherwise blank message, but keep the previous > conversation below your reply. > > Bottom posting is especially obnoxious for people who use screen > readers. They can't just visually skip over the previous reply text, > they have to sit through an entire recitation, even when they've just > heard it in the previous message. Yes, there's "skip to end", but that's > prone to missing interspersed replies. > > Interspersing your replies with the previous message is useful if you're > replying to only a small portion of the previous message. In that case, > copy the portion of the message you're replying to at the top of your > message, write your reply below it, and then keep the entire original > message below that, > possibly with duplicated portions. > > In today's world the argument of wasting bandwidth by including the > orginal message is no longer valid. Have a look at the raw, unformatted > message -- I'll bet the message headers (with list headers, anti-spam > headers, DKIM headers, and the chain of received headers) is often > larger than the content of the message. And anyone who's ever listened > to a podcast or watched a YouTube video has plenty of bandwidth, and no > cause to complain about using few extra KB to include the full reply text. > > And finally, I just want to voice the observation that all the > complaints I ever see about top posting vs. bottom posting are > invariably started by bottom-posters complaining about top posting. > People who top-post never complain about the bottom-posters or > interspersers. Why is that? > > --Bob. > > > > On 13-03-05 11:03 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 10:32:37AM -0500, William Park wrote: > >> Actually, top posting is useful when you're replying to the whole email, > >> containing disorganized rambling points spread over entire email body. > >> Also, top posting is better when you want to record of the entire > >> conversation. You just have to know when to cut the quoting and start > >> afresh. > > The entire conversation in reverse order. It never has been very > > readable, and always becomes very unclear as soon as it is a reply to > > anything discussing multiple things. How do you tell what parts you > > are replying to? > > > > You can save the entire conversation by never deleting anything and just > > quoting every time. That is readable, and maintains order, and makes > > it clear what you are replying to inline. > > > > Of course most people don't want to have the entire conversation repeated > > in every email. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 19:29:12 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:29:12 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305160319.GD20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Main advantages of top-posting are as follows: - You know what's on the top is new content. - You get the latest exchanges in chronological order, which can be trimmed if it gets too long. This is useful if you need to print it on paper. - In Outlook, bottom-posting gets very messy very quick, even with threading (aka. Conversation mode). - Your boss/coworker most likely use Outlook. - Getting paid is better than trying to convert people. -- William On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 11:03:19AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 10:32:37AM -0500, William Park wrote: > > Actually, top posting is useful when you're replying to the whole email, > > containing disorganized rambling points spread over entire email body. > > Also, top posting is better when you want to record of the entire > > conversation. You just have to know when to cut the quoting and start > > afresh. > > The entire conversation in reverse order. It never has been very > readable, and always becomes very unclear as soon as it is a reply to > anything discussing multiple things. How do you tell what parts you > are replying to? > > You can save the entire conversation by never deleting anything and just > quoting every time. That is readable, and maintains order, and makes > it clear what you are replying to inline. > > Of course most people don't want to have the entire conversation repeated > in every email. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 19:40:36 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:40:36 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305192912.GA6694-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:29 PM, William Park wrote: > Main advantages of top-posting are as follows: > - You know what's on the top is new content. > - You get the latest exchanges in chronological order, which can be > trimmed if it gets too long. This is useful if you need to print > it on paper. > - In Outlook, bottom-posting gets very messy very quick, even with > threading (aka. Conversation mode). > - Your boss/coworker most likely use Outlook. > - Getting paid is better than trying to convert people. Lolwat? Outlook is a horrid email client (regardless of the fact that many employers use it) and imho should count towards getting one godwin'd in threads about email. (Personal opinion of course) Regarding the first point - with bottom posting, I get context before reading your point, not after. I can skip the context if I don't need or want it. If you top post, I'll have to search for the context when I get confused and need it - especially in long conversations where participants have been top-posting and including the entire conversation at each stage across dozens of messages... The second point is incorrect. Top posting is in reverse chronological order (see above) -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 19:52:41 2013 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:52:41 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305192912.GA6694-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William, > > Main advantages of top-posting are as follows: > - You know what's on the top is new content. I don't have problem figuring new content in either format. > - You get the latest exchanges in chronological order, which can be > trimmed if it gets too long. This is useful if you need to print > it on paper. Interesting. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder .... > - Your boss/coworker most likely use Outlook. > - Getting paid is better than trying to convert people. > -- Bottom posting is exclusive of being paid now? Anyway I do understand your point. Better idea is to know your readers. I believe everybody write to get read, so anything that can trigger a negative should be avoided. On a technical mailing list, it would be wise to avoid top posting. At least that's what they told me when I started writing resume William > William > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 11:03:19AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 10:32:37AM -0500, William Park wrote: > > > Actually, top posting is useful when you're replying to the whole email, > > > containing disorganized rambling points spread over entire email body. > > > Also, top posting is better when you want to record of the entire > > > conversation. You just have to know when to cut the quoting and start > > > afresh. > > > > The entire conversation in reverse order. It never has been very > > readable, and always becomes very unclear as soon as it is a reply to > > anything discussing multiple things. How do you tell what parts you > > are replying to? > > > > You can save the entire conversation by never deleting anything and just > > quoting every time. That is readable, and maintains order, and makes > > it clear what you are replying to inline. > > > > Of course most people don't want to have the entire conversation repeated > > in every email. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:12:04 2013 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:12:04 -0500 Subject: YAHDF (Yet Another Hard Drive Failure?) Message-ID: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> I have a sinking feeling I know the answer to this, but just in case... Yes, bash is slow/unresponsive; a reboot yielded the message that there were file system errors; and my logfiles have the following messages repeated (with minor variations) literally hundreds of times: Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.826516] ata3.00: configured for UDMA/133 Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833553] ata3.01: configured for UDMA/133 Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833567] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] Unhandled sense code Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833570] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833572] Result: hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833575] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833577] Sense Key : Medium Error [current] [descriptor] Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833581] Descriptor sense data with sense descriptors (in hex): Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833582] 72 03 11 04 00 00 00 0c 00 0a 80 00 00 00 00 00 Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833591] 42 39 23 4f Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833595] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833599] Add. Sense: Unrecovered read error - auto reallocate failed Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833602] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] CDB: Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833603] Read(10): 28 00 42 39 23 4e 00 00 08 00 Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833623] ata3: EH complete Looks like yet another hard disk failure. But perhaps I'm missing something? Any advice/suggestions welcome. The hard drive at issue is, naturally, the one containing /boot and /. It's a Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB drive, perhaps a couple years old. Right now I think I'll replace it with an SSD, but again, any advice/suggestions welcome. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:12:18 2013 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:12:18 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305192912.GA6694-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: I can't believe that you guys are having this conversation. It's not 1990. The majority of web, corporate and smartphone clients use top posting. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to scroll down an entire email thread that gets shifted bit by bit to the right on a smart phone? On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:29 PM, William Park wrote: > Main advantages of top-posting are as follows: > - You know what's on the top is new content. > - You get the latest exchanges in chronological order, which can be > trimmed if it gets too long. This is useful if you need to print > it on paper. > - In Outlook, bottom-posting gets very messy very quick, even with > threading (aka. Conversation mode). > - Your boss/coworker most likely use Outlook. > - Getting paid is better than trying to convert people. > -- > William > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 11:03:19AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 10:32:37AM -0500, William Park wrote: > > > Actually, top posting is useful when you're replying to the whole > email, > > > containing disorganized rambling points spread over entire email body. > > > Also, top posting is better when you want to record of the entire > > > conversation. You just have to know when to cut the quoting and start > > > afresh. > > > > The entire conversation in reverse order. It never has been very > > readable, and always becomes very unclear as soon as it is a reply to > > anything discussing multiple things. How do you tell what parts you > > are replying to? > > > > You can save the entire conversation by never deleting anything and just > > quoting every time. That is readable, and maintains order, and makes > > it clear what you are replying to inline. > > > > Of course most people don't want to have the entire conversation repeated > > in every email. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:12:52 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:12:52 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: <51362CA4.4000003-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51362CA4.4000003@sobac.com> Message-ID: <20130305201252.GE20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 12:34:28PM -0500, Bob Jonkman wrote: > I read every message in the TLUG list. As I read and delete each > message, it is far better to have the new content at the top, where it > is immediately visible. I've already read the quoted reply text > contained in the current message (because I just finished reading the > previous message), so there's no need to repeat it to provide context. > But keeping that quoted reply text is still important in case I want to > save that message independently of the message thread, so don't just > reply with an otherwise blank message, but keep the previous > conversation below your reply. So a week later I read this, and I then wonder "what the hell is this about?". Now I have to scroll down, guess what you are refering to, and then find out where I got to up here. > Bottom posting is especially obnoxious for people who use screen > readers. They can't just visually skip over the previous reply text, > they have to sit through an entire recitation, even when they've just > heard it in the previous message. Yes, there's "skip to end", but that's > prone to missing interspersed replies. What the heck is a screen reader? > Interspersing your replies with the previous message is useful if you're > replying to only a small portion of the previous message. In that case, > copy the portion of the message you're replying to at the top of your > message, write your reply below it, and then keep the entire original > message below that, > possibly with duplicated portions. Actually is is always useful, so that you can tell what the reply is about. > In today's world the argument of wasting bandwidth by including the > orginal message is no longer valid. Have a look at the raw, unformatted > message -- I'll bet the message headers (with list headers, anti-spam > headers, DKIM headers, and the chain of received headers) is often > larger than the content of the message. And anyone who's ever listened > to a podcast or watched a YouTube video has plenty of bandwidth, and no > cause to complain about using few extra KB to include the full reply text. The argument has at no point been about wasted bandwidth. It has been about having things in a logical order and context for the reply. > And finally, I just want to voice the observation that all the > complaints I ever see about top posting vs. bottom posting are > invariably started by bottom-posters complaining about top posting. > People who top-post never complain about the bottom-posters or > interspersers. Why is that? Because most top-posters often know they are wrong and are just too lazy to deal with their broken client. Perhaps most don't care and are just busy forwarding the latest joke email to all the people they know. I have no idea. None of them have ever had a valid argument presented for top posting being a good idea other than in business situations where you might want to be able to forward an entire conversation to a new person without having to dig up all the other messages. For mailing lists that isn't an issue, and generally there is an archive you can point a person at instead which will me much easier to follow and read than the horrible top posted conversation. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:16:42 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:16:42 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305192912.GA6694-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130305201642.GF20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 02:29:12PM -0500, William Park wrote: > Main advantages of top-posting are as follows: > - You know what's on the top is new content. How is that useful? I have no idea what it refers to. > - You get the latest exchanges in chronological order, which can be > trimmed if it gets too long. This is useful if you need to print > it on paper. Well they are in order, but it is in reverse. > - In Outlook, bottom-posting gets very messy very quick, even with > threading (aka. Conversation mode). The times I have used outlook, it was never a problem to do proper quoting and write my reply inline. > - Your boss/coworker most likely use Outlook. Some do. Their replies are generally impossible to follow because they seem to assume colours are a valid way to indicate their comments mixed in with the quoted message. > - Getting paid is better than trying to convert people. Hasn't been a problem yet. Quite a few develors around here use mutt these days. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:17:58 2013 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:17:58 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: Totally agree. Sorry, Hugh. Long live Top Posting! Peter > I can't believe that you guys are having this conversation. > > It's not 1990. The majority of web, corporate and smartphone clients use > top posting. > > Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to scroll down an entire email > thread that gets shifted bit by bit to the right on a smart phone? > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:29 PM, William Park > wrote: > >> Main advantages of top-posting are as follows: >> - You know what's on the top is new content. >> - You get the latest exchanges in chronological order, which can be >> trimmed if it gets too long. This is useful if you need to print >> it on paper. >> - In Outlook, bottom-posting gets very messy very quick, even with >> threading (aka. Conversation mode). >> - Your boss/coworker most likely use Outlook. >> - Getting paid is better than trying to convert people. >> -- >> William >> >> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 11:03:19AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 10:32:37AM -0500, William Park wrote: >> > > Actually, top posting is useful when you're replying to the whole >> email, >> > > containing disorganized rambling points spread over entire email >> body. >> > > Also, top posting is better when you want to record of the entire >> > > conversation. You just have to know when to cut the quoting and >> start >> > > afresh. >> > >> > The entire conversation in reverse order. It never has been very >> > readable, and always becomes very unclear as soon as it is a reply to >> > anything discussing multiple things. How do you tell what parts you >> > are replying to? >> > >> > You can save the entire conversation by never deleting anything and >> just >> > quoting every time. That is readable, and maintains order, and makes >> > it clear what you are replying to inline. >> > >> > Of course most people don't want to have the entire conversation >> repeated >> > in every email. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:19:26 2013 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 17:19:26 -0300 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: Actually, scroll down an entire email thread is not only frustrating when using smartphones, but also on regular desktops (depending on the size of the thread). And yeah, we're in 2013. Kind of "lazy" talk (discuss) about this. =================================================== Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha - Kalib Graduado em Sistemas de Informa??es - EST?CIO/FIC Usu?rio Linux #407564 | Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 Fortaleza - Cear? - Brazil Celular: +55 085 87620983 Certifica??es: ITIL V3 | CSM | LPI-C1 | LPI-C2 | LPI-C3 | Novell CLA Minha Pessoa: Blog Projetos: Tux-CE | Archlinux-br | Chakra | KDE Brasil | TLUG | PUG-CE =================================================== Proteja meu endere?o como estou protegendo o seu. N?o revele e-mail dos correspondentes: use Cco (Copia Carbonada Oculta). Retire os endere?os antes de reenviar. Dificulte assim a dissemina??o de v?rus e spam. 2013/3/5 Ansar Mohammed > I can't believe that you guys are having this conversation. > > It's not 1990. The majority of web, corporate and smartphone clients use > top posting. > > Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to scroll down an entire email > thread that gets shifted bit by bit to the right on a smart phone? > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:29 PM, William Park wrote: > >> Main advantages of top-posting are as follows: >> - You know what's on the top is new content. >> - You get the latest exchanges in chronological order, which can be >> trimmed if it gets too long. This is useful if you need to print >> it on paper. >> - In Outlook, bottom-posting gets very messy very quick, even with >> threading (aka. Conversation mode). >> - Your boss/coworker most likely use Outlook. >> - Getting paid is better than trying to convert people. >> -- >> William >> >> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 11:03:19AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 10:32:37AM -0500, William Park wrote: >> > > Actually, top posting is useful when you're replying to the whole >> email, >> > > containing disorganized rambling points spread over entire email body. >> > > Also, top posting is better when you want to record of the entire >> > > conversation. You just have to know when to cut the quoting and start >> > > afresh. >> > >> > The entire conversation in reverse order. It never has been very >> > readable, and always becomes very unclear as soon as it is a reply to >> > anything discussing multiple things. How do you tell what parts you >> > are replying to? >> > >> > You can save the entire conversation by never deleting anything and just >> > quoting every time. That is readable, and maintains order, and makes >> > it clear what you are replying to inline. >> > >> > Of course most people don't want to have the entire conversation >> repeated >> > in every email. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:21:33 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:21:33 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:12:18PM -0500, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > I can't believe that you guys are having this conversation. I can't believe people keep top posting in HTML to a list that explicitly says not to. > It's not 1990. The majority of web, corporate and smartphone clients use > top posting. Who cares? Just because the majority are being idiots, doesn't mean you should follow them. Top posting does NOT work for detailed technical discussions. I have asked people at work to rewrite their emails because I could not tell what they wrote from what they replied to or what they were in fact replying to. If people can't write legible text (which is what email is), then I don't need to read what they wrote. If you insist on doing email from a device that isn't suitable for email, that's your problem, not mine. > Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to scroll down an entire email > thread that gets shifted bit by bit to the right on a smart phone? There isn't much to scroll when people trim appropriately. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:24:05 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:24:05 -0500 Subject: YAHDF (Yet Another Hard Drive Failure?) In-Reply-To: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> References: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> Message-ID: <20130305202405.GH20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:12:04PM -0500, Peter King wrote: > I have a sinking feeling I know the answer to this, but just in case... > > Yes, bash is slow/unresponsive; a reboot yielded the message that there > were file system errors; and my logfiles have the following messages > repeated (with minor variations) literally hundreds of times: > > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.826516] ata3.00: configured for UDMA/133 > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833553] ata3.01: configured for UDMA/133 > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833567] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] Unhandled sense code > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833570] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833572] Result: hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833575] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833577] Sense Key : Medium Error [current] [descriptor] > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833581] Descriptor sense data with sense descriptors (in hex): > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833582] 72 03 11 04 00 00 00 0c 00 0a 80 00 00 00 00 00 > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833591] 42 39 23 4f > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833595] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833599] Add. Sense: Unrecovered read error - auto reallocate failed > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833602] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] CDB: > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833603] Read(10): 28 00 42 39 23 4e 00 00 08 00 > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833623] ata3: EH complete > > > Looks like yet another hard disk failure. But perhaps I'm missing something? > Any advice/suggestions welcome. Looks like a failing disk. I hope you have backups. > The hard drive at issue is, naturally, the one containing /boot and /. It's > a Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB drive, perhaps a couple years old. Right > now I think I'll replace it with an SSD, but again, any advice/suggestions > welcome. I put raid1 minimum in every machine I build. Disks will fail. Laptops are a problem though since raid is usually not an option there. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:30:45 2013 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:30:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305202133.GG20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Mar 2013, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:12:18PM -0500, Ansar Mohammed wrote: >> I can't believe that you guys are having this conversation. > > I can't believe people keep top posting in HTML to a list that explicitly > says not to. > >> It's not 1990. The majority of web, corporate and smartphone clients use >> top posting. > > Who cares? Just because the majority are being idiots, doesn't mean > you should follow them. You beat me to it. I wasn't going to use quite those words, but the same sentiment. ... >> Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to scroll down an entire email >> thread that gets shifted bit by bit to the right on a smart phone? > > There isn't much to scroll when people trim appropriately. Exactly!! -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:30:21 2013 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:30:21 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > I can't believe that you guys are having this conversation. > [...] I can't believe that people prefer top posting rather than clipping and answering only relevant portions in-line. For one thing, m,ailing list archives are much more useful and are less wasteful. I do understand the problem with smartphones but usually mailing lists are more technical so you will take your time answering anyway, probably not on your smartphone. Besides, most modern smartphone MUAs now support in-line replies. -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:31:11 2013 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:31:11 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305201642.GF20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305201642.GF20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 02:29:12PM -0500, William Park wrote: >> Main advantages of top-posting are as follows: [...] > > Hasn't been a problem yet. Quite a few develors around here use mutt > these days. +1 for bottom posting. -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:36:35 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:36:35 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: > I do understand the problem with smartphones but usually mailing lists > are more technical so you will take your time answering anyway, > probably not on your smartphone. Besides, most modern smartphone MUAs > now support in-line replies. My tendency, when on a tiny-screened-device, is to click the little checkbox to omit quoting *anything*, as it seems better to let threading and previous emails on a MAILING LIST to do their thing and provide that context. The proper lazy answer is to omit quoting anything at all, rather than quoting things you're likely not even commenting on. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:36:59 2013 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:36:59 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305202133.GG20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:12:18PM -0500, Ansar Mohammed wrote: >> I can't believe that you guys are having this conversation. > > I can't believe people keep top posting in HTML to a list that explicitly > says not to. > +1 I forgot about the HTML part. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:39:19 2013 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:39:19 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > My tendency, when on a tiny-screened-device, is to click the little checkbox > to omit quoting *anything*, as it seems better to let threading and previous > emails on a MAILING LIST to do their thing and provide that context. +1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:40:32 2013 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:40:32 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: [...] > The proper lazy answer is to omit quoting anything at all, rather than > quoting things you're likely not even commenting on. The proper thing is to respond with just enough context to make sense of that single reply without having to read the whole thread. Like others have said, maybe the cell phone is not the most effective device to hold a technical discussion on a mailing list. -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 20:46:04 2013 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:46:04 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305202133.GG20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: FWIW, you can complain all you like. I don't think anyone is going to change their email client's configuration. Keep fighting the good fight! On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:12:18PM -0500, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > > I can't believe that you guys are having this conversation. > > I can't believe people keep top posting in HTML to a list that explicitly > says not to. > > > It's not 1990. The majority of web, corporate and smartphone clients use > > top posting. > > Who cares? Just because the majority are being idiots, doesn't mean > you should follow them. > > Top posting does NOT work for detailed technical discussions. I have > asked people at work to rewrite their emails because I could not tell > what they wrote from what they replied to or what they were in fact > replying to. > > If people can't write legible text (which is what email is), then I > don't need to read what they wrote. > > If you insist on doing email from a device that isn't suitable for email, > that's your problem, not mine. > > > Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to scroll down an entire email > > thread that gets shifted bit by bit to the right on a smart phone? > > There isn't much to scroll when people trim appropriately. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 21:49:59 2013 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 16:49:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Mar 2013, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > FWIW, you can complain all you like. I don't think anyone is going to > change their email client's configuration. Is there an email client that doesn't let you put your reply wherever you want? -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 21:58:37 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 16:58:37 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Tue, 5 Mar 2013, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > >> FWIW, you can complain all you like. I don't think anyone is going to >> change their email client's configuration. > > > Is there an email client that doesn't let you put your reply > wherever you want? I may be mistaken, and this is why context is important. I believe Ansar's response was referring to Lennart's comment about the use of HTML on this list (whose rules specifically state not to use HTML). Of course, Lennart's entire post follows the top-posted response so I may very well be wrong. -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 5 22:23:32 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:23:32 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5d4d911a-a5d5-48dc-a6de-35245afd6402@email.android.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Ansar Mohammed wrote: >FWIW, you can complain all you like. I don't think anyone is going to >change their email client's configuration. > >Keep fighting the good fight! Funny you argue about phones but post from gmail. This message ought to be a plain text bottom post, from my phone, using K9 mail. It took two seconds to toggle a box. Oh and there ought to be a GPG signature too. basically, the argument comes down to, "I'm lazy and don't care about etiquette, so no one else should either." FWIW indeed. Jamon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: APG v1.0.8 iQI8BAEBCAAmBQJRNnBkHxxKYW1vbiBDYW1pc3NvIDxqYW1vbkBqYW1vbi5jYT4A CgkQMmn2f6tNyQWJLg//Td/GfJtzEMGXazWOW2rFtIQNTx9Hqr1W4EyS9pLoeX6f VzqLmzIkQWE4WWI9vuJPb7qc8Vku17BSlDCJlGWhsHXedjGMg2XFeCSY9u8jd4N+ PyOt5CAKwt9mcTiEh5ADFjw6+QVDmpDjjjm7M2bxe1ELTn56OYG06mzilAG1zAbH gEQpHUHaY7fzunB8SRTM91IgUz9QdAA/VhYoKupspxa/7Sz040O9qMjz/flW2LGI TmeCjW0lpB9Qfv5npsRAFxjeB+9MFcPdP5bpFc5DZb3fHjBbqugkJTM3ZuQyaJQ9 8i3GLbS03X+4wfR4m9si6fLpSoyCKiS9EDK79lmXNvpJ16PuXpz6l0QJUrw4qVq6 eFvtwA8APhiOGUnCwA2SgFuroP8JjhrFU4lfJuV8eDauFIuxBdnny4lm0MDH3w4w jSTgkPWglLwbuF5gPjxaqSRY27crJkgVuN+6PhgfFcBGtPuokNUveDD/cU+8bJGZ LSAlKX+7n4MFgcOrhsmUOOzAbUu6fJMeK2wZZBroQNpLyU7rum8/eTamtEXNQasT OTOlkYm75hQ1/AvAMZf5FseMe/aM9AzCRExUTRCFYIPlFU8X/4yt0rqGHOE7kFe0 duB6eue1qP/EgaRBr1WNrc+WCx4rDNulvoIY3IqStW/Z2HeuoBV3KvsjENyOC8s= =9Wdx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 02:58:35 2013 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 21:58:35 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <5d4d911a-a5d5-48dc-a6de-35245afd6402-2ueSQiBKiTY7tOexoI0I+QC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5d4d911a-a5d5-48dc-a6de-35245afd6402@email.android.com> Message-ID: That's just your view of etiquette, I'm afraid. It's diametrically opposed to the vast majority of the internet users on the planet. My view is that you don't call a complete stranger "lazy" or "idiots" because they have a different point of view. I guess I am not as "cultured" as the rest of you. On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Funny you argue about phones but post from gmail. This message ought to be > a plain text bottom post, from my phone, using K9 mail. It took two seconds > to toggle a box. Oh and there ought to be a GPG signature too. > > basically, the argument comes down to, "I'm lazy and don't care about > etiquette, so no one else should either." > > FWIW indeed. > > Jamon > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: APG v1.0.8 > > iQI8BAEBCAAmBQJRNnBkHxxKYW1vbiBDYW1pc3NvIDxqYW1vbkBqYW1vbi5jYT4A > CgkQMmn2f6tNyQWJLg//Td/GfJtzEMGXazWOW2rFtIQNTx9Hqr1W4EyS9pLoeX6f > VzqLmzIkQWE4WWI9vuJPb7qc8Vku17BSlDCJlGWhsHXedjGMg2XFeCSY9u8jd4N+ > PyOt5CAKwt9mcTiEh5ADFjw6+QVDmpDjjjm7M2bxe1ELTn56OYG06mzilAG1zAbH > gEQpHUHaY7fzunB8SRTM91IgUz9QdAA/VhYoKupspxa/7Sz040O9qMjz/flW2LGI > TmeCjW0lpB9Qfv5npsRAFxjeB+9MFcPdP5bpFc5DZb3fHjBbqugkJTM3ZuQyaJQ9 > 8i3GLbS03X+4wfR4m9si6fLpSoyCKiS9EDK79lmXNvpJ16PuXpz6l0QJUrw4qVq6 > eFvtwA8APhiOGUnCwA2SgFuroP8JjhrFU4lfJuV8eDauFIuxBdnny4lm0MDH3w4w > jSTgkPWglLwbuF5gPjxaqSRY27crJkgVuN+6PhgfFcBGtPuokNUveDD/cU+8bJGZ > LSAlKX+7n4MFgcOrhsmUOOzAbUu6fJMeK2wZZBroQNpLyU7rum8/eTamtEXNQasT > OTOlkYm75hQ1/AvAMZf5FseMe/aM9AzCRExUTRCFYIPlFU8X/4yt0rqGHOE7kFe0 > duB6eue1qP/EgaRBr1WNrc+WCx4rDNulvoIY3IqStW/Z2HeuoBV3KvsjENyOC8s= > =9Wdx > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 03:37:56 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 22:37:56 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5d4d911a-a5d5-48dc-a6de-35245afd6402@email.android.com> Message-ID: <5136BA14.1020009@utoronto.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 13-03-05 09:58 PM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > That's just your view of etiquette, I'm afraid. It's diametrically > opposed to the vast majority of the internet users on the planet. > My view is that you don't call a complete stranger "lazy" or > "idiots" because they have a different point of view. I guess I am > not as "cultured" as the rest of you. This thread has nothing to do with the vast majority of the users on the internet. It has to do with a geographically specific technical community who use a variety of specialized mail tools that in their own ways attempt to adhere to RFC specifications. Moreover, said community has a set of established practices and norms built up around them. Etiquette is having at least a modicum of understanding and adherence to those norms, and of your audience, however arbitrary they might seem. Jamon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRNroUAAoJEDJp9n+rTckFp0IP/RaQGa97O1OH3D65aU3itm2+ mghS1K3Dy//Nb6ot7va5JQ8U6izL1ffpAnpj1XI1ufsNt28AR6NVLUGMam01FAmg HCihRkk5p2JbFyMzUPwLeb+VDEIylZpnGUr66E4aToUi6JJm+FxnFlhHoARIpj7M oCaqXeiPBh/42LMwSfVU8gM4tUA0hAxS9AAsg/FYeacBiffK9SdABvaTkXBk9W1t G1JtR89nk5AtqQYp/5pwQ04GH2NO8ZVUquVX9tF1CWx/vM7w8LBLcS373EyUFysJ 7/GFNisTVgI/TMy9cOABEZ5KCjX1xl5FKjfO8+mYDD4TYIehoNjRx1/Ogi2/5glB qZFHwhSnuXFHaILGcYZGP/KSJg1qdSvOjuPODrtTyGjxsVCtDpcyRf0kZOLjjuD9 48qBcfe3RYrr5Vl4mjJmGvC/7ltuf9WDWiTfyFnEh2MMLWs/hX6WpE5Vr6gqVJB2 ASRJ0Q/LgYelh52bfbFlzl7X0I+HHNvsnGM1iuYEu08AmM0sIvnvDYEU5qr75zss 9+a8NYqrRf2Ht91yyRgXIkwf+xhJpSdRAh6GpeNcLG7BtIFZg6wR67ZCQnQM+YGB XmoBH45NJbhMUobZXt0LA1fu8CAUoEC3Q0r/B8vplYBPV1RTw5+nWMFP2GtUnqic q8+hc6usd8j5bOLXMUhk =0pKf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 04:30:35 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 23:30:35 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130306043035.GC2687@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:12:18PM -0500, Ansar Mohammed wrote > I can't believe that you guys are having this conversation. > > It's not 1990. The majority of web, corporate and smartphone clients > use top posting. This is a list by linux users for linux users. Why should we follow MS Windows software conventions, i.e. Outlook? Outlook also executed attachments at one point; does linux's failure to do so cause any complaints? > Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to scroll down an entire > email thread that gets shifted bit by bit to the right on a smart > phone? As Scott Adams would say "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer". http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-06-24/ Seriously, this is a list about a PC operating system and programs, and most people read it on PC's. I do not want to see this list dumbed down to accomadate the limits of an "iToy" aimed at kids logged onto Facebook or Twitter. I'm not going out of my way to make things difficult for anybody. On the other hand, I'm not going out of my way... period. "Smartphones" are not going to replace computers, except for tasks where a computer is wrong or overkill to begin with. A kid or a grandmother who wants to update their Facebook status is probably not a candidate for a real computer. On the other hand, doing real work often requires a real computer. Yes, I do have a smartphone, an HTC Desire that I use in wifi-only mode. It's OK for light webbrowsing, listening to music, or FM radio, or doing some reading whilst waiting at the doctor's office or at an airport or a McDonald's. It'll even take grainy snapshots. But I don't expect to get serious work done with it. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 06:42:50 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 01:42:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: YAHDF (Yet Another Hard Drive Failure?) In-Reply-To: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> References: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> Message-ID: | From: Peter King It does look like a hard drive failure. You could boot from a CD and peer at the drive with smartctl. | The hard drive at issue is, naturally, the one containing /boot and /. On my system, that would be the best stuff to lose: just re-install. /home is more critical. That's why I use my SSD for /: I don't mind losing it. And I have lost an SSD (still under warranty). It was my first SSD, so that isn't a great track record. I don't have a /boot. Can anyone explain why having one would be a win for me? I don't use RAID (one possible reason). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 07:09:35 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 02:09:35 -0500 Subject: YAHDF (Yet Another Hard Drive Failure?) In-Reply-To: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> References: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> Message-ID: <20130306070935.GA13825@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:12:04PM -0500, Peter King wrote: > I have a sinking feeling I know the answer to this, but just in case... > > Yes, bash is slow/unresponsive; a reboot yielded the message that there > were file system errors; and my logfiles have the following messages > repeated (with minor variations) literally hundreds of times: > > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.826516] ata3.00: configured for UDMA/133 > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833553] ata3.01: configured for UDMA/133 > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833567] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] Unhandled sense code > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833570] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833572] Result: hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833575] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833577] Sense Key : Medium Error [current] [descriptor] > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833581] Descriptor sense data with sense descriptors (in hex): > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833582] 72 03 11 04 00 00 00 0c 00 0a 80 00 00 00 00 00 > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833591] 42 39 23 4f > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833595] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833599] Add. Sense: Unrecovered read error - auto reallocate failed > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833602] sd 2:0:0:0: [sda] CDB: > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833603] Read(10): 28 00 42 39 23 4e 00 00 08 00 > Mar 4 03:10:04 amber kernel: [477226.833623] ata3: EH complete > > Looks like yet another hard disk failure. But perhaps I'm missing something? > Any advice/suggestions welcome. > > The hard drive at issue is, naturally, the one containing /boot and /. It's > a Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB drive, perhaps a couple years old. Right > now I think I'll replace it with an SSD, but again, any advice/suggestions > welcome. "Medium Error" and "Unrecovered read error - auto reallocate failed" might be good hints. Do backup, but keep any old backups because current data might not be reliable. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 07:31:15 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 02:31:15 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130306073115.GB13825@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:30:21PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: > I can't believe that people prefer top posting rather than clipping > and answering only relevant portions in-line. Yes, but only if the original email is logically structured with proper paragraphing, so that you can respond point by point. But, you know, that's rare in real world. What do you do if - those "relevant portions" are all over the place? - if original email needs to be preserved as posted and included as reference? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 07:40:40 2013 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 02:40:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130306073115.GB13825-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130306073115.GB13825@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, William Park wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:30:21PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> I can't believe that people prefer top posting rather than clipping >> and answering only relevant portions in-line. > > Yes, but only if the original email is logically structured with proper > paragraphing, so that you can respond point by point. Insert a new line after each point. > But, you know, > that's rare in real world. What do you do if > - those "relevant portions" are all over the place? Put your responses all over the place. (And cut irrelevant portions of the original.) > - if original email needs to be preserved as posted and included as > reference? Then preserve it. It doesn't need to be sent back and forth with every reply. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 08:52:52 2013 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 03:52:52 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51362CA4.4000003@sobac.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Mauro Souza wrote: > I think we already deviated way too far from the original topic... > > Installing Fedora is a pain, and going thru it until the end is a proof > someone is a very loyal Fedorist, and should receive an medal, and should > add "I installed Fedora 'till the end!' to the default mail signature. Other than having to disable LVM, my install of FC18 was smooth. If I stuck with the open source video drivers, I wouldn't have had much problems at all. Installing current video drivers, even in the windows world is not part initial install. It's like installing an application. -- Mark Lane http://2100computerlane.net -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 08:55:56 2013 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 03:55:56 -0500 Subject: Fedora-18 -- how to install? In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51362CA4.4000003@sobac.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:52 AM, Mark Lane wrote: > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Mauro Souza wrote: >> I think we already deviated way too far from the original topic... >> >> Installing Fedora is a pain, and going thru it until the end is a proof >> someone is a very loyal Fedorist, and should receive an medal, and should >> add "I installed Fedora 'till the end!' to the default mail signature. > > > Other than having to disable LVM, my install of FC18 was smooth. If I > stuck with the open source video drivers, I wouldn't have had much > problems at all. > > Installing current video drivers, even in the windows world is not > part initial install. It's like installing an application. > Also you can't blame fedora for binary drivers supplied by one 3rd party and packaged by another 3rd party. -- Mark Lane http://2100computerlane.net -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 14:21:59 2013 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:21:59 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Tue, 5 Mar 2013, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > >> FWIW, you can complain all you like. I don't think anyone is going to >> change their email client's configuration. > > > Is there an email client that doesn't let you put your reply > wherever you want? > AFAIK a lot of smartphone MUAs don't allow this. Even GMail's Android client only until recently allows in-line replies. I still have a Nexus One with CyanogenMod and the GMail client there does not allow bottom or in-line replies. So I only answer business-related or personal emails because __that particular scenario__ the expectation is in fact, top-posting. Anyway, the point of this discussion is that __on technical mailing lists__, especially those related to Unix and Linux expect you to follow RFC1855 and AFAIK it has not superseded by any other RFC so until that happens, those are the official guidelines for mail and mailing lists, period (regardless if it's from 1995). Furthermore, it seems quite awkward to talk about Outlook on a Linux mailing list because that is in fact Off-Topic. The RFC explicitly states: Page 4: (on mail in general) Be brief without being overly terse. When replying to a message, include enough original material to be understood but no more. It is extremely bad form to simply reply to a message by including all the previous message: edit out all the irrelevant material. Page 8: (specifically for mailing lists) If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of the original to give a context. This will make sure readers understand when they start to read your response. Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context helps everyone. But do not include the entire original! Best, -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 14:46:38 2013 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:46:38 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5d4d911a-a5d5-48dc-a6de-35245afd6402@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > That's just your view of etiquette, I'm afraid. It's diametrically opposed > to the vast majority of the internet users on the planet. My view is that It may be true in the Windoze business world but on almost every single Unix and Linux mailing list is quite the opposite. It actually does depend on the context. Email is used in many different contexts and on mailing lists there are certain expectations given the topic at hand. Some lists prohibit top-posting and remove members after the first warning, some don't seem to care. > you don't call a complete stranger "lazy" or "idiots" because they have a > different point of view. I guess I am not as "cultured" as the rest of you. > That is precisely the point here. It is in fact expected of you to understand the context and the general culture of any mailing you are posting to. Actually, this holds true for any human group, not just mailing lists (e.g. you don't sit on the Yankee stadium playing the Red Sox, on the Yankee side with a Red Sox shirt. IMO this what using Outlook as an argument here sounds like). In Linux, Unix and many, many technical lists (I would say the majority I've participated in), the expectation is that you are at least familiar with the "Netiquette Guidelines" RFC1855 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt) and the more colloquial "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" written and mainatined by Eric Raymond at http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Everyone has had their share of this "rudeness" (http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#keepcool) on technical lists and I surely had my share when I started with Linux and Open Source back in 1998. It's not personal, that's just the way it is. Cheers! -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 15:37:58 2013 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:37:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post In-Reply-To: <5136BA14.1020009-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5d4d911a-a5d5-48dc-a6de-35245afd6402@email.android.com> <5136BA14.1020009@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1362584278.42179.YahooMailNeo@web120804.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Top Post vs Bottom Post ? Hello, Here are my random thoughts about top/bottom posting. I don't care if people top/bottom/whatever?post;?the?same way I don't?criticize?other people's grammar, punctuation or writing style in posts. I don't see the big deal. I do acknowledge some people have strong opinions about one posting way over the other but sorry, I reply in the way it makes more sense to me: - If a reply addresses one or more points in the middle of a post, and especially if it can be confused with other points, then interspersed sentences are the best. Optionally trimming other text that is not pertaining is usually good. - If I reply to a short post (one or two paragraphs) I'll tend to reply at the bottom; it reads better. - If I reply to a very long post with something short related to the whole post (esp. when I know it's my last comment and it won't have a?reply) then I'll top post; if you followed the conversation is faster to just get the one reply than scrolling a wall of text and find it at the bottom. Cheers, --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 15:53:18 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:53:18 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130306073115.GB13825-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130306073115.GB13825@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130306155318.GI20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 02:31:15AM -0500, William Park wrote: > Yes, but only if the original email is logically structured with proper > paragraphing, so that you can respond point by point. But, you know, > that's rare in real world. What do you do if > - those "relevant portions" are all over the place? If everyone did what makes sense, that wouldn't be an issue. Almost all emails I get are sensibly structured. probably says something about the type of people I mainly deal with. Top posting is what causes most badly structured emails to begin with. So top posting is only a solution to a problem created by top posting in seems. > - if original email needs to be preserved as posted and included as > reference? On a mailing list that isn't the case, so who gives a shit? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 15:54:10 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:54:10 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130306155410.GJ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 04:49:59PM -0500, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > Is there an email client that doesn't let you put your reply > wherever you want? Well some users are alergic to cursor keys. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 15:58:24 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:58:24 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <5d4d911a-a5d5-48dc-a6de-35245afd6402-2ueSQiBKiTY7tOexoI0I+QC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5d4d911a-a5d5-48dc-a6de-35245afd6402@email.android.com> Message-ID: <20130306155824.GK20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 05:23:32PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > Funny you argue about phones but post from gmail. This message ought to be a plain text bottom post, from my phone, using K9 mail. It took two seconds to toggle a box. Oh and there ought to be a GPG signature too. > > basically, the argument comes down to, "I'm lazy and don't care about etiquette, so no one else should either." > > FWIW indeed. > > Jamon > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: APG v1.0.8 > > iQI8BAEBCAAmBQJRNnBkHxxKYW1vbiBDYW1pc3NvIDxqYW1vbkBqYW1vbi5jYT4A > CgkQMmn2f6tNyQWJLg//Td/GfJtzEMGXazWOW2rFtIQNTx9Hqr1W4EyS9pLoeX6f > VzqLmzIkQWE4WWI9vuJPb7qc8Vku17BSlDCJlGWhsHXedjGMg2XFeCSY9u8jd4N+ > PyOt5CAKwt9mcTiEh5ADFjw6+QVDmpDjjjm7M2bxe1ELTn56OYG06mzilAG1zAbH > gEQpHUHaY7fzunB8SRTM91IgUz9QdAA/VhYoKupspxa/7Sz040O9qMjz/flW2LGI > TmeCjW0lpB9Qfv5npsRAFxjeB+9MFcPdP5bpFc5DZb3fHjBbqugkJTM3ZuQyaJQ9 > 8i3GLbS03X+4wfR4m9si6fLpSoyCKiS9EDK79lmXNvpJ16PuXpz6l0QJUrw4qVq6 > eFvtwA8APhiOGUnCwA2SgFuroP8JjhrFU4lfJuV8eDauFIuxBdnny4lm0MDH3w4w > jSTgkPWglLwbuF5gPjxaqSRY27crJkgVuN+6PhgfFcBGtPuokNUveDD/cU+8bJGZ > LSAlKX+7n4MFgcOrhsmUOOzAbUu6fJMeK2wZZBroQNpLyU7rum8/eTamtEXNQasT > OTOlkYm75hQ1/AvAMZf5FseMe/aM9AzCRExUTRCFYIPlFU8X/4yt0rqGHOE7kFe0 > duB6eue1qP/EgaRBr1WNrc+WCx4rDNulvoIY3IqStW/Z2HeuoBV3KvsjENyOC8s= > =9Wdx > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Very nice. I like it. Only thing I would improve is a 'dash dash space' above your signature so that email clients know it is a signature, and not part of the message. Some clients automatically avoid quiting the signature if it is marked that way. And of course wrapping at 80 columns as the list rules also say to do in every footer of every tlug message you get. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 19:00:55 2013 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:00:55 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post (was: Fedora-18 -- how to install?) In-Reply-To: <20130305201252.GE20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130301002408.GA28805@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130301222921.GZ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51362CA4.4000003@sobac.com> <20130305201252.GE20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <51379267.3080205@sobac.com> Lennart Sorensen asked: >What the heck is a screen reader? "Screen reader" refers to an assistive device that turns text normally displayed on a screen into speech, or a single (or double) line of braille, or a single line or a single word of magnified text. These are serial outputs, ill-suited to bottom-posted messages. --Bob. "A screen is an assistive device for the visually dependent" --Geoff Eden, Accessibility Planner for the City of Toronto On 13-03-05 03:12 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 12:34:28PM -0500, Bob Jonkman wrote: >> I read every message in the TLUG list. As I read and delete each >> message, it is far better to have the new content at the top, where it >> is immediately visible. I've already read the quoted reply text >> contained in the current message (because I just finished reading the >> previous message), so there's no need to repeat it to provide context. >> But keeping that quoted reply text is still important in case I want to >> save that message independently of the message thread, so don't just >> reply with an otherwise blank message, but keep the previous >> conversation below your reply. > So a week later I read this, and I then wonder "what the hell is this > about?". Now I have to scroll down, guess what you are refering to, > and then find out where I got to up here. > >> Bottom posting is especially obnoxious for people who use screen >> readers. They can't just visually skip over the previous reply text, >> they have to sit through an entire recitation, even when they've just >> heard it in the previous message. Yes, there's "skip to end", but that's >> prone to missing interspersed replies. > What the heck is a screen reader? > >> Interspersing your replies with the previous message is useful if you're >> replying to only a small portion of the previous message. In that case, >> copy the portion of the message you're replying to at the top of your >> message, write your reply below it, and then keep the entire original >> message below that, >> possibly with duplicated portions. > Actually is is always useful, so that you can tell what the reply > is about. > >> In today's world the argument of wasting bandwidth by including the >> orginal message is no longer valid. Have a look at the raw, unformatted >> message -- I'll bet the message headers (with list headers, anti-spam >> headers, DKIM headers, and the chain of received headers) is often >> larger than the content of the message. And anyone who's ever listened >> to a podcast or watched a YouTube video has plenty of bandwidth, and no >> cause to complain about using few extra KB to include the full reply text. > The argument has at no point been about wasted bandwidth. It has been > about having things in a logical order and context for the reply. > >> And finally, I just want to voice the observation that all the >> complaints I ever see about top posting vs. bottom posting are >> invariably started by bottom-posters complaining about top posting. >> People who top-post never complain about the bottom-posters or >> interspersers. Why is that? > Because most top-posters often know they are wrong and are just too > lazy to deal with their broken client. Perhaps most don't care and are > just busy forwarding the latest joke email to all the people they know. > I have no idea. None of them have ever had a valid argument presented > for top posting being a good idea other than in business situations > where you might want to be able to forward an entire conversation to a > new person without having to dig up all the other messages. For mailing > lists that isn't an issue, and generally there is an archive you can > point a person at instead which will me much easier to follow and read > than the horrible top posted conversation. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 19:50:54 2013 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:50:54 -0500 Subject: YAHDF (Yet Another Hard Drive Failure?) In-Reply-To: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> References: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> Message-ID: <20130306195054.GA2518@amber> I replaced the questionable hard drive with an SSD, without loss of data, and (much to my surprise) everything went reasonably smoothly. Except for one place where I lost my way entirely. So, without further ado, here's... TODAY'S QUIZ FOR EXPERTS !!! Booted from a CD located at /dev/sr0, copied the contents of the defective drive (/dev/sda) to the replacement drive (/dev/sdb). Then chrooted into the replacement drive so as to install grub manually. Dropped into the grub shell, and... What the heck is the grub "name" of the drive I want to install it on? ( No peeking now -- ) Hint: Grub claimed to find three hard drives (of the actual four in the system at the time). ( Give up? -- ) Okay, if your answer was (hd1,0) for the boot partition, on the grounds that Linux saw it as /dev/sdb, well, you'd be wrong. The correct answer is "(hd0,0)" -- that is, as though it were /dev/sda. And indeed once I reboot the whole thing it should be /dev/sda, and so it proved to be. I have no idea why. Undoubtedly there is some corner of an obscure man page that says when you're chrooted all devices are /dev/sda or something equally strange. But whatever the reason is, it isn't obvious, and grub itself gives no clues what to do. Fortunately, I guessed correctly. Well, to be honest, I didn't. I decided that since I had no clue I'd just start with (hd0) and see whether the system booted, and if not, try (hd1), and so on, until I ran through all the integers. At least that's what it felt like. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 20:07:07 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:07:07 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop Message-ID: An old laptop (IBM Thinkpad T43) recently died on me, so I have been poking around at laptop options. The one that finally tempted me into a buy was an HP 2000 2b53CA that is on sale at $339 at Costco. That is a bit time sensitive; I think the sale ends tomorrow or Friday. I'm collecting my notes here: http://linuxdatabases.info/info/hpaq.html It's pretty basic hardware: - 15.6" screen - 4GB memory, expandable to 8 - Pentium B980 It uses UEFI by default; hitting "F10" during boot allows switching to "legacy" BIOS, which was suitable to let me toss in a Debian CD (6.0.5 netinst), which recognized enough hardware to get me on network. It spent last night installing 1300-ish packages, and is further, today, upgrading those to testing. It's early to say "everything's good"; I should have better answers on that tomorrow, notably relating to wireless (which I haven't tried to play with). But it's all looking promising. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 20:30:57 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:30:57 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 03:07:07PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > An old laptop (IBM Thinkpad T43) recently died on me, so I have been > poking around at laptop options. The one that finally tempted me into > a buy was an HP 2000 2b53CA that is on sale at $339 at Costco. That > is a bit time sensitive; I think the sale ends tomorrow or Friday. > > I'm collecting my notes here: > http://linuxdatabases.info/info/hpaq.html > > It's pretty basic hardware: > - 15.6" screen Surprisingly hard to find the resolution. HP doesn't seem to like telling you, but apparently by high definition, HP means 1366x768. Does bilingual mean it has the awful keyboard with the tiny shift keys and enter key that are impossible to hit when actually typing (rather than hunt and peck)? > - 4GB memory, expandable to 8 > - Pentium B980 > > It uses UEFI by default; hitting "F10" during boot allows switching to > "legacy" BIOS, which was suitable to let me toss in a Debian CD > (6.0.5 netinst), which recognized enough hardware to get me on > network. It spent last night installing 1300-ish packages, and is > further, today, upgrading those to testing. Well I think wheezy at least should natively work with UEFI (at least the 64bit version should). > It's early to say "everything's good"; I should have better answers > on that tomorrow, notably relating to wireless (which I haven't tried > to play with). But it's all looking promising. I think the wifi is a ralink chip, so you might be in luck if your kernel is new enough. So for debian that might mean you need to use squeeze-backports to get a new enough kernel (or use wheezy even though it isn't released yet). I do like my new thinkpad W530, but it sure didn't cost only $339. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 20:49:09 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:49:09 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: <20130306203057.GA11991-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Does bilingual mean it has the awful keyboard with the tiny shift keys > and enter key that are impossible to hit when actually typing (rather > than hunt and peck)? Yep, I expect I'll want to poke at xmodmap to map several of those onto Control. I briefly set it to "bilingual" mode; I couldn't figure out a way of getting important characters like <, >, |, which matter rather a lot in shell. That was a serious mistake. >> - 4GB memory, expandable to 8 >> - Pentium B980 >> >> It uses UEFI by default; hitting "F10" during boot allows switching to >> "legacy" BIOS, which was suitable to let me toss in a Debian CD >> (6.0.5 netinst), which recognized enough hardware to get me on >> network. It spent last night installing 1300-ish packages, and is >> further, today, upgrading those to testing. > > Well I think wheezy at least should natively work with UEFI (at least > the 64bit version should). Hmm. I should probably poke at that a little. Nice to get it booting both ways. >> It's early to say "everything's good"; I should have better answers >> on that tomorrow, notably relating to wireless (which I haven't tried >> to play with). But it's all looking promising. > > I think the wifi is a ralink chip, so you might be in luck if your kernel > is new enough. > > So for debian that might mean you need to use squeeze-backports to get > a new enough kernel (or use wheezy even though it isn't released yet). Yep, ralink sounds right. It's presently on 2.6.something; I'll see about switching to something modern-ish, and see how that turns out. > I do like my new thinkpad W530, but it sure didn't cost only $339. Tempting, for sure. Supporting up to 32GB of memory is pretty spectacular, for a laptop. I wasn't keen on ~$900. Mind you, my Macbook, which cost ~$1300, once upon a time, has gotten pretty ratty, and the W530 is wildly more powerful despite being quite a bit cheaper. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 21:30:58 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 16:30:58 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: References: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130306213058.GB11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 03:49:09PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > Yep, I expect I'll want to poke at xmodmap to map several of those onto > Control. > > I briefly set it to "bilingual" mode; I couldn't figure out a way of getting > important characters like <, >, |, which matter rather a lot in shell. > That was a serious mistake. My wife's ideapad Y470 came with a bilingual keyboard, but she never did figure out how to make it do what the symbols claimed it should be able to do. When it broke (due to excessive cat impact), I just replaced it with a US keyboard which is much nicer to work with. > Hmm. I should probably poke at that a little. Nice to get it booting > both ways. Well if EFI booting works, then why bother booting legacy anymore? > Yep, ralink sounds right. It's presently on 2.6.something; I'll see about > switching to something modern-ish, and see how that turns out. > > Tempting, for sure. Supporting up to 32GB of memory is pretty > spectacular, for a laptop. I wasn't keen on ~$900. Mind you, my > Macbook, which cost ~$1300, once upon a time, has gotten pretty > ratty, and the W530 is wildly more powerful despite being quite a bit > cheaper. Mine came with 2x4GB, and I added 2x8GB more just because well it was cheap at canada computers to buy more ram and there was two empty slots in the laptop that could be filled. I got mine with the K2000M video and the 1920x1080 screen and the backlit US keyboard (the backlit keyboard is great in the dark, well worth the extra $40). And of course the 6300 wifi module that has 3x3 antenna setup dual band. Only thing I wish it had was eSata, but USB3 will have to do unless I get an expresscard esata card. I should also pick up a displayport to HDMI adapter to have around for it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 21:44:12 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 16:44:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: YAHDF (Yet Another Hard Drive Failure?) In-Reply-To: <20130306195054.GA2518@amber> References: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> <20130306195054.GA2518@amber> Message-ID: | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | I replaced the questionable hard drive with an SSD, without loss of data, | and (much to my surprise) everything went reasonably smoothly. Congratulations! | Booted from a CD located at /dev/sr0, copied the contents of the defective | drive (/dev/sda) to the replacement drive (/dev/sdb). Then chrooted into the | replacement drive so as to install grub manually. Dropped into the grub | shell, and... | | What the heck is the grub "name" of the drive I want to install it on? Drive names are not safe or stable. That's why all the distros I use seem to refer to partitions via UUIDs. I think GRUB lets the BIOS determine the enumeration of drives. I think Linux (in recent years) has its own enumberation which can have races, yielding unstable names. Note: this is based on half-remembered information and could be wrong. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 21:48:25 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 16:48:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: References: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Lennart Sorensen | wrote: | > Does bilingual mean it has the awful keyboard with the tiny shift keys | > and enter key that are impossible to hit when actually typing (rather | > than hunt and peck)? | | Yep, I expect I'll want to poke at xmodmap to map several of those onto | Control. | | I briefly set it to "bilingual" mode; I couldn't figure out a way of getting | important characters like <, >, |, which matter rather a lot in shell. | That was a serious mistake. Ubuntu has a guess-your-keyboard-layout feature when you are installing. Even with that, I couldn't get a bilinugual keyboard configured properly. I'm too lazy to do whatever hard work is required. But if somebody else figures it out, I'm interested. My understanding is that the layout is a Canadian Standard. But I didn't track down a copy of it (I don't remember if it cost money -- I hate when they charge for standards). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 22:17:20 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 17:17:20 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: References: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5137C070.2050109@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I briefly set it to "bilingual" mode; I couldn't figure out a way of getting > | important characters like <, >, |, which matter rather a lot in shell. > | That was a serious mistake. > > Ubuntu has a guess-your-keyboard-layout feature when you are > installing. Even with that, I couldn't get a bilinugual keyboard > configured properly. > > I'm too lazy to do whatever hard work is required. But if somebody > else figures it out, I'm interested. > > My understanding is that the layout is a Canadian Standard. But I > didn't track down a copy of it (I don't remember if it cost money -- > I hate when they charge for standards). I configure my computers for U.S. International. It's largely the U.S. Standard keyboard, but uses the right Alt key to get the other characters. It would be nice if the keyboards sold here had that layout, with the special characters included on the keytops. Here's an article showing the various keyboard layouts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 6 23:22:04 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:22:04 -0500 Subject: Top Post vs Bottom Post In-Reply-To: <449_1362585545_r26Fx3DH002859_20130306155824.GK20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130305153237.GB32756@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305160319.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130305192912.GA6694@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130305202133.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5d4d911a-a5d5-48dc-a6de-35245afd6402@email.android.com> <449_1362585545_r26Fx3DH002859_20130306155824.GK20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5137CF9C.6000702@utoronto.ca> On 13-03-06 10:58 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Very nice. I like it. > > Only thing I would improve is a 'dash dash space' above your signature so > that email clients know it is a signature, and not part of the message. > Some clients automatically avoid quiting the signature if it is marked > that way. > > And of course wrapping at 80 columns as the list rules also say to do > in every footer of every tlug message you get. Funny I hate signatures so don't add one, but it looks like the K9 and APG (gpg on Android) don't integrate GPG signatures that nicely. I refrain from posting to the list with K9 because of the lack of wrapping at 72 or 80 columns, but there is a patch upstream: http://code.google.com/p/k9mail/issues/detail?id=387 Not sure why my version doesn't have it though, I suppose I could build and install my own apk. Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 01:01:40 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 20:01:40 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: References: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130307010140.GB4390@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 03:49:09PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote > Yep, ralink sounds right. It's presently on 2.6.something; I'll see > about switching to something modern-ish, and see how that turns out. Can the install CD give a commandline tty or a terminal? From there try... lspci -v | less That is the standard procedure for Gentoo installs. The output tells you... a) what hardware is hooked up to PCI on the machine b) what kernel module is being used to run the hardware lsusb -v | less ...will give similar info for USB-attached devices. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 02:33:46 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:33:46 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: <20130307010140.GB4390-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130307010140.GB4390@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 3/6/13, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 03:49:09PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote > >> Yep, ralink sounds right. It's presently on 2.6.something; I'll see >> about switching to something modern-ish, and see how that turns out. > > Can the install CD give a commandline tty or a terminal? From there > try... > > lspci -v | less A bit more targeted is thus... root at hpaq:~# lspci | egrep '(Network|Realtek)' 01:00.0 Network controller: Ralink corp. Device 539b 02:00.0 Unassigned class [ff00]: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTS5229 PCI Express Card Reader (rev 01) 08:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8101E/RTL8102E PCI Express Fast Ethernet controller (rev 05) That validates Lennart's speculation, yes, indeed, Ralink Wifi. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 05:19:22 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 00:19:22 -0500 Subject: YAHDF (Yet Another Hard Drive Failure?) In-Reply-To: <20130306195054.GA2518@amber> References: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> <20130306195054.GA2518@amber> Message-ID: <20130307051922.GA27654@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 02:50:54PM -0500, Peter King wrote: > Booted from a CD located at /dev/sr0, copied the contents of the defective > drive (/dev/sda) to the replacement drive (/dev/sdb). Then chrooted into the > replacement drive so as to install grub manually. Dropped into the grub > shell, and... > > What the heck is the grub "name" of the drive I want to install it on? If you just did mount /dev/sdb /mnt chroot /mnt then it's crab shoot. You were lucky that your guess was the same as GRUB's. Proper way to do this is mount /dev/sdb /mnt for i in dev proc sys run; do mount -B /$i /mnt/$i done chroot /mnt where you duplicate parent system environment under /mnt. Then, you definitely know that /dev/sdb is what you want. One thing is not clear. Did you leave the old /dev/sda in, and just rebooted? In that case, you're still booting off the old disk, and using the kernel and root partition from the new SSD. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 11:48:15 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 06:48:15 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a Cubox? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2013-03-03 11:08 PM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier" wrote: > > | From: Thomas Milne > > | Unfortunately the Cubox doesn't even work any more. > | > | Apparently plugging in a USB key as the instructions suggested with a new > | microsd card have now ruined the device. I put the old microsd back in but > | it doesn't boot. > > That sounds odd. The device specs don't suggest that there is any > state in the device to screw up past a power cycle. All the state > lives in external stuff (MicroSD card and disks). > > Were you reflashing the boot ROM? That surely is internal state. That is likely correct. One of the recommended steps was to install a new u-boot, so I included that. The instructions said that the latest installer supports HDMI. It didn't. Tried connecting to a terminal but failed. So I had to shut it down and try again. Somewhere in there I lost the boot ROM. I guess I'll get around to fixing it, but right now I need to focus on getting something running for my kids to use. We got the new router that Lennart recommended and tonight we go to the Apple Store. I'm looking at the entry level iMac, but I can't decide between getting the extra RAM or the awesome Fusion Drive. Probably Fusion Drive. > | Good job guys, fantastic device. > > It sounds like you are addressing us, but I presume that you are > really addressing Solid Run. Sorry, ya, wasn't aiming very good was I? I think I had reason to be frustrated. They've had like over a year to work on this installer, and it can't even do the most basic thing it promised to do two versions ago? REALLY? > | Nice knowin yall but I'm done with this bullshit. > > Again, it sounds like you are addressing us. And that you are unhappy > with how we've treated you. In fact, we've tried to be helpful. That is very true. I hope no one on here took anything I said personally. Just lost my temper. I've had really awful luck with stuff breaking down lately so I snapped. I have been helped by many people many times over many...many years. This also is not the first time I've blown my lid... > | When I can pay a thousand > | bucks and just have everything I want, hacking around with Linux is just > | retarded. > > I agree: if the cost of everything you want is a thousand dollars, > you'd be a fool to do anything else. I cannot imagine a thousand > dollar purchase satisfying all my wants. No argument there. I am actually more pissed at myself than anything. With what I've spent in the last year on various, relatively small projects that came to nothing, I could have bought my kids a Mac. Which they do actually kinda need. So anyway, as I hope is obvious, this is nothing to do with anyone here, and I apologize for the unwarranted shot at Linux and hackers and so on, it's just my personal shit. > As far as hacking around, I find Windows is harder to bend to my will > than Linux. The only advantage of Windows is that most battles are > short, (leading to my defeat); my battles with Linux are generally > longer but I win most of them. I never said nuthin about resorting to Windows ;) Again, my apologies to all and really appreciate that you took the time to respond. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 14:52:16 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:52:16 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: References: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130307010140.GB4390@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20130307145216.GC11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 09:33:46PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > A bit more targeted is thus... > > root at hpaq:~# lspci | egrep '(Network|Realtek)' > 01:00.0 Network controller: Ralink corp. Device 539b > 02:00.0 Unassigned class [ff00]: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. > RTS5229 PCI Express Card Reader (rev 01) > 08:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. > RTL8101E/RTL8102E PCI Express Fast Ethernet controller (rev 05) > > That validates Lennart's speculation, yes, indeed, Ralink Wifi. commit 2aed691540661e9cf6dac5dd2bd8742b9d68399d Author: Zero.Lin Date: Thu May 10 10:06:31 2012 +0800 rt2x00:Add RT539b chipset support Signed-off-by: Zero.Lin Acked-by: Gertjan van Wingerde Signed-off-by: John W. Linville diff --git a/drivers/net/wireless/rt2x00/rt2800pci.c b/drivers/net/wireless/rt2x00/rt2800pci.c index 931331d..cad25bf 100644 --- a/drivers/net/wireless/rt2x00/rt2800pci.c +++ b/drivers/net/wireless/rt2x00/rt2800pci.c @@ -1192,6 +1192,7 @@ static DEFINE_PCI_DEVICE_TABLE(rt2800pci_device_table) = { { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x5390) }, { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x5392) }, { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x539a) }, + { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x539b) }, { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x539f) }, #endif { 0, } So you will need kernel version 3.5 or higher to use wifi. in the case of debian that's tricky. You would have to install wheezy or sid and use the experimental branch to get the 3.7 kernel. Once wheezy is released, there should be a backports version of a new enough kernel too. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 15:59:54 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:59:54 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: <20130307145216.GC11991-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130307010140.GB4390@waltdnes.org> <20130307145216.GC11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 09:33:46PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: >> A bit more targeted is thus... >> >> root at hpaq:~# lspci | egrep '(Network|Realtek)' >> 01:00.0 Network controller: Ralink corp. Device 539b >> 02:00.0 Unassigned class [ff00]: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. >> RTS5229 PCI Express Card Reader (rev 01) >> 08:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. >> RTL8101E/RTL8102E PCI Express Fast Ethernet controller (rev 05) >> >> That validates Lennart's speculation, yes, indeed, Ralink Wifi. > > commit 2aed691540661e9cf6dac5dd2bd8742b9d68399d > Author: Zero.Lin > Date: Thu May 10 10:06:31 2012 +0800 > > rt2x00:Add RT539b chipset support > > Signed-off-by: Zero.Lin > Acked-by: Gertjan van Wingerde > Signed-off-by: John W. Linville > > diff --git a/drivers/net/wireless/rt2x00/rt2800pci.c b/drivers/net/wireless/rt2x00/rt2800pci.c > index 931331d..cad25bf 100644 > --- a/drivers/net/wireless/rt2x00/rt2800pci.c > +++ b/drivers/net/wireless/rt2x00/rt2800pci.c > @@ -1192,6 +1192,7 @@ static DEFINE_PCI_DEVICE_TABLE(rt2800pci_device_table) = { > { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x5390) }, > { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x5392) }, > { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x539a) }, > + { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x539b) }, > { PCI_DEVICE(0x1814, 0x539f) }, > #endif > { 0, } > > So you will need kernel version 3.5 or higher to use wifi. > > in the case of debian that's tricky. You would have to install wheezy or > sid and use the experimental branch to get the 3.7 kernel. Once wheezy is > released, there should be a backports version of a new enough kernel too. Slightly scarily, I tried out the 3.2.0-4 kernel (in testing) last night, and that turned out strangely badly, where very shortly after the kernel started, the screen blanked, and there was no indication of further activity of the system. Possibly just a screen confusion; I didn't check further. Too many things *useful* to do to the system. Adding in a 3.7+ kernel looks not too troublesome; I suppose that I add in deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ experimental main contrib non-free and some pin rules, such as: cbbrowne at cbbrowne ~/firefox> cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/simple Package: * Pin: release a=stable Pin-Priority: 700 Package: * Pin: release a=testing Pin-Priority: 650 Package: * Pin: release a=unstable Pin-Priority: 600 Package: * Pin: release a=experimental Pin-Priority: 100 The other little entertainment was that I had to work a little harder than expected to get Firefox going. - The built-in iceweasel is a rather too elderly version. - The tarball that comes from a "default" download from Mozilla is a 32 bit build, and my system hasn't 32 bit libs. Installing 32 bit libraries seemed a bit of a pain, so I went with... - Pulling a specifically-64-bit Firefox tarball. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 16:02:02 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 11:02:02 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: <20130225172044.GN20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2013-02-25 12:21 PM, "Lennart Sorensen" wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 04:14:44PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > > Way back in 2011, Lennart was recommending the D-Link router, the DIR825 > > rev B. Unfortunately it doesn't appear on Canada Computers site or anywhere > > else I can find. > > > > It seems to still be available from d-linkshop.ca as a 'Top Seller' but it > > doesn't show whether it is the preferred 'rev B'. > > > > Is there something comparable, particularly with Shareport, that is > > likewise recommended? > > See if you can find this: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/buffalo/wzr-600dhp > > 680MHz CPU, 32MB flash and 128MB ram and dual band is about as good as > it gets. > > $100 at NCIX in markham. Out of stock at canadacomputers (but $84). Got it and it seems awesome so far. I've got the router up in the kitchen, with both Playstations in the basement rooms streaming video from MyBookWorld, plus my phone and the iPad streaming Youtube (nothing HD mind you) and no hiccups I can notice. The 5Ghz light isn't even blinking...weird. Thanks for the recommendation, you've never steered me wrong. The router even has something called a Movie Engine, not a clue what that does, and of course I still have to explore the other firmware option. Amazing. Thanks man. > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 16:06:10 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 11:06:10 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5138BAF2.3000706@utoronto.ca> On 13-03-07 11:02 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > Got it and it seems awesome so far. I've got the router up in the kitchen, > with both Playstations in the basement rooms streaming video from > MyBookWorld, plus my phone and the iPad streaming Youtube (nothing HD mind > you) and no hiccups I can notice. > > The 5Ghz light isn't even blinking...weird. > > Thanks for the recommendation, you've never steered me wrong. The router > even has something called a Movie Engine, not a clue what that does, and of > course I still have to explore the other firmware option. Given your recent woes with hacking on things, I wouldn't recommend that you do it, but I run OpenWRT on my DIR-825 and am thrilled at how well it works and how much control it gives over the unit. I highly recommend it for anyone with an 825. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 16:36:52 2013 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 11:36:52 -0500 Subject: YAHDF (Yet Another Hard Drive Failure?) In-Reply-To: <22075_1362633604_r275K2v2000864_20130307051922.GA27654-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130305201139.GA2893@amber> <20130306195054.GA2518@amber> <22075_1362633604_r275K2v2000864_20130307051922.GA27654@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130307163652.GB5589@amber> On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 12:19:22AM -0500, William Park wrote: > One thing is not clear. Did you leave the old /dev/sda in, and just > rebooted? In that case, you're still booting off the old disk, and using > the kernel and root partition from the new SSD. Nope, I took the old /dev/sda out (along with the liveCD), and the system booted up from the SSD as the new /dev/sda. It's been running beautifully for a few days now. I put in more RAM as well, so as to put all the gentoo compilations on tmpfs, which should reduce wear and tear (well write and rewrite) on the SSD. Wonderful breath of life into the hardware. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 18:21:08 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 13:21:08 -0500 Subject: War Story: HP 2000 Laptop In-Reply-To: References: <20130306203057.GA11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130307010140.GB4390@waltdnes.org> <20130307145216.GC11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130307182108.GD11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 10:59:54AM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > Slightly scarily, I tried out the 3.2.0-4 kernel (in testing) last > night, and that > turned out strangely badly, where very shortly after the kernel started, the > screen blanked, and there was no indication of further activity of the system. > Possibly just a screen confusion; I didn't check further. Too many things > *useful* to do to the system. > > Adding in a 3.7+ kernel looks not too troublesome; I suppose that I add in > deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ experimental main contrib non-free > and some pin rules, such as: > cbbrowne at cbbrowne ~/firefox> cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/simple > Package: * > Pin: release a=stable > Pin-Priority: 700 > > Package: * > Pin: release a=testing > Pin-Priority: 650 > > Package: * > Pin: release a=unstable > Pin-Priority: 600 > > Package: * > Pin: release a=experimental > Pin-Priority: 100 > > The other little entertainment was that I had to work a little harder than > expected to get Firefox going. > - The built-in iceweasel is a rather too elderly version. > - The tarball that comes from a "default" download from Mozilla > is a 32 bit build, and my system hasn't 32 bit libs. Installing > 32 bit libraries seemed a bit of a pain, so I went with... > - Pulling a specifically-64-bit Firefox tarball. You don't need pinning. experimental is ALWAYS lower priority and you have to explicitly ask for such packages by version (or by name if only experimental contains the package). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 18:23:37 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 13:23:37 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130307182337.GE11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 11:02:02AM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Got it and it seems awesome so far. I've got the router up in the kitchen, > with both Playstations in the basement rooms streaming video from > MyBookWorld, plus my phone and the iPad streaming Youtube (nothing HD mind > you) and no hiccups I can notice. > > The 5Ghz light isn't even blinking...weird. Did you setup both a 2.4ghz and a 5ghz SSID? I have a wifi24 and wifi5. Are any of your devices connected via 5ghz? > Thanks for the recommendation, you've never steered me wrong. The router > even has something called a Movie Engine, not a clue what that does, and of > course I still have to explore the other firmware option. > > Amazing. Thanks man. They have lots of weird features that probably aren't useful. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 20:55:41 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 15:55:41 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: <20130307182337.GE11991-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130307182337.GE11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2013-03-07 1:24 PM, "Lennart Sorensen" wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 11:02:02AM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > > Got it and it seems awesome so far. I've got the router up in the kitchen, > > with both Playstations in the basement rooms streaming video from > > MyBookWorld, plus my phone and the iPad streaming Youtube (nothing HD mind > > you) and no hiccups I can notice. > > > > The 5Ghz light isn't even blinking...weird. > > Did you setup both a 2.4ghz and a 5ghz SSID? I have a wifi24 and wifi5. > > Are any of your devices connected via 5ghz? Okay well now I've read the manual and so on. The bad news is the PS3's do not support wireless n/a, so only the iPad and iPod will benefit from 5ghz. That's cool because they were the ones mainly complaining. So what I did was run a cable to the one PS3 and left the other on the 2.4 connection. My logic being that the two playstations should not now ever compete with each other for bandwidth. Right? > > Thanks for the recommendation, you've never steered me wrong. The router > > even has something called a Movie Engine, not a clue what that does, and of > > course I still have to explore the other firmware option. > > > > Amazing. Thanks man. > > They have lots of weird features that probably aren't useful. Ya, I can't even find documentation that says what this Movie Engine does... :-/ > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 21:24:19 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 16:24:19 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130307182337.GE11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130307212419.GF11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 03:55:41PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Okay well now I've read the manual and so on. The bad news is the PS3's do > not support wireless n/a, so only the iPad and iPod will benefit from 5ghz. > That's cool because they were the ones mainly complaining. So what I did > was run a cable to the one PS3 and left the other on the 2.4 connection. > > My logic being that the two playstations should not now ever compete with > each other for bandwidth. Right? I don't have a PS3, so I don't know if it has wifi or not built in. I know the Wii does (although I don't have one of those either) and that the xbox 360 does not have wifi built in (I do have one of those around). Wired is always better though. > Ya, I can't even find documentation that says what this Movie Engine > does... :-/ It is QoS. You can specify certain ports as high or low priority for outbound traffic to try and make certain traffic have priority. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 7 22:11:38 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:11:38 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130307221138.GA5411@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 11:02:02AM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Got it and it seems awesome so far. I've got the router up in the kitchen, > with both Playstations in the basement rooms streaming video from > MyBookWorld, plus my phone and the iPad streaming Youtube (nothing HD mind > you) and no hiccups I can notice. > > The 5Ghz light isn't even blinking...weird. So, are you connected on 5GHz now? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 8 13:46:14 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:46:14 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: <20130307221138.GA5411-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130307221138.GA5411@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 5:11 PM, William Park wrote: > On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 11:02:02AM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > > Got it and it seems awesome so far. I've got the router up in the > kitchen, > > with both Playstations in the basement rooms streaming video from > > MyBookWorld, plus my phone and the iPad streaming Youtube (nothing HD > mind > > you) and no hiccups I can notice. > > > > The 5Ghz light isn't even blinking...weird. > > So, are you connected on 5GHz now? > You bet. The iPad/iPods and now our new iMac are connected on 5GHz, and so far it's been waaaaaay better than on our old Linksys single band router. > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Thomas Milne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 9 15:46:37 2013 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 10:46:37 -0500 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:07 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: Microsoft really is at war with Linux. Giving them the "keys to the > kingdom" would seem quite foolish. Better to force a new Linux-wide > signing authority to be created. . . . > Remember Microsoft's telling us we should trust ActiveX over the web? > After all, all ActiveX modules were signed. But all that proved was that > Microsoft believed that the module it signed came from the source who had > paid a license fee and agreed to license terms. No verification of the > code was involved. Punishment for a discovered violation was loss of the > license AFTER THE FACT. No sandboxing or any other technical control. > This went on for years. Pathetic. > What's that Microsoft Window8's booting all about? I have to admit that I haven't been paying attention to news from Windows world, except that all Microsoft's decisions are becoming more and more insane, it's new logo, UI, booting, etc, which explains why the new Window's products has now become the **biggest failure* . (*Ref: http://www.zdnet.com/five-reasons-why-windows-8-has-failed-7000012104/, "The numbers are in and they don't lie. Windows 8 market adoption numbers are well behind Microsoft's greatest previous operating system failure, Vista.", "*neither Windows 8 nor its cousins Windows RT and Windows Phone 8 even appear on NetApplication's mobile and tablet reports for February 2013. How bad is that? Android 1.6, with is tiny 0.02% of the market, does make the list*.") So back to to Window8's booting, when I first heard it, I knew Microsoft is clearly waging wars against Linux, and I was thinking the Linux world must have ways to retaliate. Now that it's becoming an unresolved issue, I'm wondering, how it can be technically possible for Microsoft to control a PC only boots into its Windows, but not other OSs? Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 9 16:09:26 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 08:09:26 -0800 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By having a BIOS that only a boots "signed" OS, and MS controls the signinf authority. On Mar 9, 2013 7:47 AM, "Antonio Sun" wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:07 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > Microsoft really is at war with Linux. Giving them the "keys to the >> kingdom" would seem quite foolish. Better to force a new Linux-wide >> signing authority to be created. > > . . . > >> Remember Microsoft's telling us we should trust ActiveX over the web? >> After all, all ActiveX modules were signed. But all that proved was that >> Microsoft believed that the module it signed came from the source who had >> paid a license fee and agreed to license terms. No verification of the >> code was involved. Punishment for a discovered violation was loss of the >> license AFTER THE FACT. No sandboxing or any other technical control. >> This went on for years. Pathetic. >> > > What's that Microsoft Window8's booting all about? > > I have to admit that I haven't been paying attention to news from Windows > world, except that all Microsoft's decisions are becoming more and more > insane, it's new logo, UI, booting, etc, which explains why the new > Window's products has now become the **biggest failure* . (*Ref: > http://www.zdnet.com/five-reasons-why-windows-8-has-failed-7000012104/, "The > numbers are in and they don't lie. Windows 8 market adoption numbers are > well behind Microsoft's greatest previous operating system failure, Vista.", > "*neither Windows 8 nor its cousins Windows RT and Windows Phone 8 even > appear on NetApplication's mobile and tablet reports for February 2013. How > bad is that? Android 1.6, with is tiny 0.02% of the market, does make the > list*.") > > So back to to Window8's booting, when I first heard it, I knew Microsoft > is clearly waging wars against Linux, and I was thinking the Linux world > must have ways to retaliate. Now that it's becoming an unresolved issue, > I'm wondering, how it can be technically possible for Microsoft to control > a PC only boots into its Windows, but not other OSs? > > Thanks > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 11 01:03:12 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:03:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old Pentium III computers Message-ID: I have four working PIII computers that I'm about to junk. Three are 833 MHz Dell Optiplex GX115 Small Form Factor boxes. One is a full-size beige box with a 667 MHz processor. All but one box has 512M of RAM. One GX115 couldn't handle 512M so it has 384M. I don't think that they support more than 512M. If anyone wants some or all, speak up before Tuesday. (Crrently the disk drives have been removed. If someone wants a machine with a disk drive, I can re-install and wipe the disk.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 11 18:49:11 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 14:49:11 -0400 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130311184911.GG11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Mar 09, 2013 at 10:46:37AM -0500, Antonio Sun wrote: > What's that Microsoft Window8's booting all about? > > I have to admit that I haven't been paying attention to news from Windows > world, except that all Microsoft's decisions are becoming more and more > insane, it's new logo, UI, booting, etc, which explains why the new > Window's products has now become the **biggest failure* . (*Ref: > http://www.zdnet.com/five-reasons-why-windows-8-has-failed-7000012104/, "The > numbers are in and they don't lie. Windows 8 market adoption numbers are > well behind Microsoft's greatest previous operating system failure, Vista.", > "*neither Windows 8 nor its cousins Windows RT and Windows Phone 8 even > appear on NetApplication's mobile and tablet reports for February 2013. How > bad is that? Android 1.6, with is tiny 0.02% of the market, does make the > list*.") > > So back to to Window8's booting, when I first heard it, I knew Microsoft is > clearly waging wars against Linux, and I was thinking the Linux world must > have ways to retaliate. Now that it's becoming an unresolved issue, I'm > wondering, how it can be technically possible for Microsoft to control a PC > only boots into its Windows, but not other OSs? I think the biggest problem for Windows 8 is the new user interface. It might be pretty decent on a touch screen device, but most people don't have those and aren't buying those. If you use a mouse and keyboard, it is not a nice interface and people don't want to have to learn something completely different especially when it doesn't gain them anything. At least when windows 95 added the start menu and taskbar it was a major improvement in functionality over the program manager in windows 3.x. As for booting, to get a machine certified to carry the 'windows 8' logo sticker, it must use UEFI instead of a BIOS, and it must have secureboot (an optional UEFI feature) enabled by default and it must have microsoft's signing key preloaded as a valid signature checking key. It will then when booting check that the bootloader code has a valid signature and has not been modified, and then the boot loader will do the same for the kernel and drivers and other bits it loads. This is supposed to mean a virus can't modify the bootloader or other windows components without being detected. So non official code simply won't run. This will of course be fun when a virus does modify the bootloader and you are left with an unbootable PC rather than one with a virus that needs cleaning. As a side effect (that I imagine Microsoft likes), by default these 'windows 8' certified machines won't boot any OS that doesn't have a bootloader signed by microsoft's key. UEFI secureboot does in the spec allow adding and removing which keys are valid, so that you could on your machines (if say you were a big company) sign your own code and only allow your signed code to run on your machines. Nice feature if you need that level of security on your machines. Microsoft has simply hijacked this feature for their own benefit. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 12 19:35:47 2013 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:35:47 -0400 Subject: Canada Computers selling a PC with a GPL'd OS pre-installed Message-ID: <513F8393.5090305@ss.org> Now that I have your hopes up, read the specs carefully. Sapphire Edge VS4 (4H000-08-40G) Mini PC - AMD APU A4 1.9GHz, 4GB DDR3, 320GB HDD - AMD RadeonTM HD7400G, Pre-installed FreeDOS, Support Windows 8 http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_1157&item_id=056104 http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentation/product/?cid=6&gid=1186&sgid=1189&pid=1746&psn=&lid=1&leg=0 Yes... FreeDOS. I know it's not Linux, but short of building your own machine, this is the closest to "sell me a bare, but pre-built machine" I've seen. Aka, No Windows Tax -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 12 20:13:58 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Canada Computers selling a PC with a GPL'd OS pre-installed In-Reply-To: <513F8393.5090305-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <513F8393.5090305@ss.org> Message-ID: | From: Scott Sullivan | Yes... FreeDOS. | | I know it's not Linux, but short of building your own machine, this is the | closest to "sell me a bare, but pre-built machine" I've seen. Aka, No Windows | Tax As I reported here in August 2010, you could get Acer Revo systems with FreeDOS. In the description, they were called "linux boot" but no Linux was supplied! (The Acer Revo is very much like the Asus Saphire.) I guess that Microsoft strongarmed manufacturers to not deliver "naked PCs" (that was the terminology in Microsoft's advertising that implied it was improper and immoral). Heck, I remember buying Dell UNIX (circa 1990, System V release 4 for i386) that came with MS-DOS, whether you wanted it or not! You can a very few Dell Vostro notebooks with Ubuntu and no Microsoft license. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 00:04:53 2013 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:04:53 -0400 Subject: Canada Computers selling a PC with a GPL'd OS pre-installed In-Reply-To: <513F8393.5090305-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <513F8393.5090305@ss.org> Message-ID: <20130312200453.e55df9ce658243581301e334@eol.ca> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:35:47 -0400 Scott Sullivan wrote: > Now that I have your hopes up, read the specs carefully. > > Sapphire Edge VS4 (4H000-08-40G) Mini PC > - AMD APU A4 1.9GHz, 4GB DDR3, 320GB HDD > - AMD RadeonTM HD7400G, Pre-installed FreeDOS, Support Windows 8 > > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_1157&item_id=056104 > http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentation/product/?cid=6&gid=1186&sgid=1189&pid=1746&psn=&lid=1&leg=0 > > > Yes... FreeDOS. > > I know it's not Linux, but short of building your own machine, this is > the closest to "sell me a bare, but pre-built machine" I've seen. Aka, > No Windows Tax Scott, A few years ago, I bought an Acer Aspire 3623 with something called Linpus Linux on it. This was not at all functional, and I quickly replaced it with Fedora_3. The machine is now retired, primarily because the keyboard sucks. I am now happy with my Fujitsu Lifebook. I touch type. An encrypted /home partition, a long encryption key, touch typing and a bad keyboard do not work. :( -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 03:09:23 2013 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:09:23 -0400 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: <20130311184911.GG11991-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130311184911.GG11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > As for booting, to get a machine certified to carry the 'windows 8' logo > sticker, it must use UEFI instead of a BIOS, and it must have secureboot > (an optional UEFI feature) enabled by default and it must have microsoft's > signing key preloaded as a valid signature checking key. It will then > when booting check that the bootloader code has a valid signature and > has not been modified, and then the boot loader will do the same for > the kernel and drivers and other bits it loads. This is supposed to > mean a virus can't modify the bootloader or other windows components > without being detected. So non official code simply won't run. > > This will of course be fun when a virus does modify the bootloader and > you are left with an unbootable PC rather than one with a virus that > needs cleaning. > > As a side effect (that I imagine Microsoft likes), by default these > 'windows 8' certified machines won't boot any OS that doesn't have a > bootloader signed by microsoft's key. Thanks for the detailed explanation. I sense reasons to avoid windows 8 all over the places. Those poor guys who got the 'windows 8' logoed PCs, do they know exactly what they are buying? well I guest most of them don't care, but , can they still boot their old CD/DVDs? I'm considering to buy a new PC, but I guess I better to wait until I'm able to boot Linux from it, and the booting easy enough so that I don't have to jump through several hoops to make it happen. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 03:54:17 2013 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:54:17 -0400 Subject: Following up on tonight's talk, Micro Controller Usb Devices Message-ID: Hi, Excellent talk tonight, Jan. Pure Excellent! I just want to follow up on my question, which is on the micro controller programming side. Could you give us a brief idea what micro controller programming is all about please, Jan? I.e., - to read the voltage, or capacity, or RPM, can you just do a USB read, or you have to do some programming, e.g., to have the MC to prepare the data then put the data at dual band usb ram before reading? Same question goes for the DAC converter as well. How ready-to-use it is? Briefly explanation would be good enough for me. - Beside programming MC to provide the above read/write, what other typical things you can program the MC to do? I guess you can use complicated logic when programming it, right? - Do you think the following would be a typical real-life usage of the MCs? You write to MC a certain bytes, representing some certain commands/instructions; MC correctly interprets those instructions and "calls" the "predefined procedures" to carry out the tasks. Then you send out the instruction for reading back the data, and then read them back, right? - Since MC have no cache, then I guess to get the correct RPM value, you have to pull the data from its USB as fast as possible, If so, it still seems a problem to me that Linux is not a real time OS. I've leaned that MC can get those readings at pretty predictable interval, but at the end of the day, wouldn't how fast/predictable the USB host can read them back still be the problem? Last questions, please explain very briefly, how can the USB host know that there are still unused USB bandwidths? Thanks again for the excellent talk. Antonio PS, Scott, I didn't find the slides from the meeting info page @ http://gtalug.org/wiki/Meetings:2013-03. where can I find it? Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 04:29:42 2013 From: chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DAVID CHIPMAN) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Following up on tonight's talk, Micro Controller Usb Devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1363148982.17822.YahooMailNeo@web140605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Antonio Sun To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:54:17 PM Subject: [TLUG]: Following up on tonight's talk, Micro Controller Usb Devices Hi,? Excellent talk tonight, Jan. Pure?Excellent! I'm sorry I missed it! PS, Scott, I didn't find the slides from the meeting info page @ http://gtalug.org/wiki/Meetings:2013-03. where can I find it?? I would also like to se the slides from tonight's talk,? -David Chipman -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 05:02:31 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 01:02:31 -0400 Subject: Following up on tonight's talk, Micro Controller Usb Devices In-Reply-To: <1363148982.17822.YahooMailNeo-mhNdJOJujDYMe+d1jY/0H5EhsgyP+Z75VpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1363148982.17822.YahooMailNeo@web140605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:29 AM, DAVID CHIPMAN wrote: > Excellent talk tonight, Jan. Pure Excellent! > > I'm sorry I missed it! > > PS, Scott, I didn't find the slides from the meeting info page @ http://gtalug.org/wiki/Meetings:2013-03. where can I find it? > > > I would also like to se the slides from tonight's talk, I attached them, and they sure seem to be there... Look for the string "Image:Building_USB_Devices.pdf" It links to the page where you can then download the document: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Image:Building_USB_Devices.pdf I validated that they were there by downloading it onto my tablet while I was at the meeting, so I'm quite sure the slides are and were there. I won't put words into Jan's mouth, but there's a piece alluded to but not totally explained, that being what gets programmed on the microcontroller. It was alluded to in that I recall Jan indicating that some actions would be handled via the controller's interrupt handler. There wasn't a structure presented as the broader picture of what a microcontroller program looks like. Some bits are in the slides, not as a broad structure: see pages 15-16. I have some imagined thoughts on some of the interfacing-MC-to-USB side of things, but I haven't expertise enough for it to be other than blather. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 11:38:58 2013 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 07:38:58 -0400 Subject: Following up on tonight's talk, Micro Controller Usb Devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1363174738.2036.14.camel@tecumseth3> On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 23:54 -0400, Antonio Sun wrote: [ ... ] > - Beside programming MC to provide the above read/write, what other > typical things you can program the MC to do? I guess you can use > complicated logic when programming it, right? > - Do you think the following would be a typical real-life usage of the > MCs? You write to MC a certain bytes, representing some certain > commands/instructions; MC correctly interprets those instructions and > "calls" the "predefined procedures" to carry out the tasks. Then you > send out the instruction for reading back the data, and then read them > back, right? Arduino is a really good platform to use to get familiar with these issues. The hardware is affordable even though it isn't cheap, and the free IDE and libraries and bootloader are completely worth it when you're starting out. The Arduino programming language is fundamentally standard C with a touch of C++; C is the preferred language for microcontroller programming now so you won't be led astray. There are zillions of other peoples' projects on the web to compare yours with. Mine is kind of esoteric, but it's at for what it's worth. Typical Arduino projects communicate using USART serial links over an on-board USB/serial adapter. Jan didn't talk much about the microcontroller side of the USB link, except to say that it's very complicated for the developer, which it is, and that sample implementations are provided by the microcontroller manufacturers, which they are. The difficulties can be overcome; I've seen people do it. It'll just take work. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 15:45:01 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:45:01 -0400 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: References: <20130311184911.GG11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130313154500.GH11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:09:23PM -0400, Antonio Sun wrote: > Thanks for the detailed explanation. I sense reasons to avoid windows 8 > all over the places. Those poor guys who got the 'windows 8' logoed PCs, do > they know exactly what they are buying? well I guest most of them don't > care, but , can they still boot their old CD/DVDs? Only if they change the secureboot setting to off in the UEFI firmware. I believe Microsoft says it expects PC makers to have such a setting, and at one point I thought they said it was requried to get certified, but I am not so sure about that. > I'm considering to buy a new PC, but I guess I better to wait until I'm > able to boot Linux from it, and the booting easy enough so that I don't > have to jump through several hoops to make it happen. Waiting won't change anything. If you can disable secureboot, then you should be fine. If you can actually control secureboot then that's an even better design. Those of us that buy parts and build our own don't have a problem so far. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 17:16:46 2013 From: sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Steve Harvey) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:16:46 -0400 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: <20130313154500.GH11991-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130311184911.GG11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130313154500.GH11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130313171645.GG1023@vex.net> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:45:01AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:09:23PM -0400, Antonio Sun wrote: > > > I'm considering to buy a new PC, but I guess I better to wait until I'm > > able to boot Linux from it, and the booting easy enough so that I don't > > have to jump through several hoops to make it happen. > > Waiting won't change anything. If you can disable secureboot, then you > should be fine. If you can actually control secureboot then that's an > even better design. > The Linux Foundation made available a UEFI Secure Boot pre-loader just over a month ago. It requires user presence so I wouldn't recommend this solution in a server environment. I would expect adoption by many distros in the next few months. -sgh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 17:30:58 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:30:58 -0400 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: <20130313171645.GG1023-Ja3L+HSX0kI@public.gmane.org> References: <20130311184911.GG11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130313154500.GH11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130313171645.GG1023@vex.net> Message-ID: <20130313173058.GI11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 01:16:46PM -0400, Steve Harvey wrote: > The Linux Foundation made available a UEFI Secure Boot pre-loader just over a > month ago. It requires user presence so I wouldn't recommend this solution > in a server environment. I would expect adoption by many distros in the > next few months. As far as I am concerned it is a non solution. Certainly any distribution that cares about free software like say Debian will not be able to use this "solution". -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 13 18:10:00 2013 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:10:00 -0400 Subject: Ability to buy bare machines. (Was: PC with a GPL'd OS pre-installed) In-Reply-To: <20130312200453.e55df9ce658243581301e334-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <513F8393.5090305@ss.org> <20130312200453.e55df9ce658243581301e334@eol.ca> Message-ID: <5140C0F8.9020700@ss.org> On 03/12/2013 08:04 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:35:47 -0400 > Scott Sullivan wrote: >> I know it's not Linux, but short of building your own machine, this is >> the closest to "sell me a bare, but pre-built machine" I've seen. Aka, >> No Windows Tax > > Scott, > > A few years ago, I bought an Acer Aspire 3623 with something called > Linpus Linux on it. This was not at all functional, and I quickly > replaced it with Fedora_3. The machine is now retired, primarily > because the keyboard sucks. I am now happy with my Fujitsu Lifebook. > I touch type. An encrypted /home partition, a long encryption key, >t ouch typing and a bad keyboard do not work. :( > Hello Howard, I remember Linpus rather well, the distro it's self was a Fedora derivative and come install on my Acer Aspire One. I had bought that in the first wave of netbooks and yes, it's keyboard sucked and I also upgrade to a full Fedora later. The real point of the post was somewhere else entirely. 1) We shouldn't have to build our own machines in order to have a choices of OS. On the above point, when selling hardware that bundles an OS, that alright if that's your business model and it's free. But if the OS is not free, I want the option not to take it. This is what I found interesting about the Sapphire PC listed. It leaves the option of the OS open to you. They ship you the drivers along assuming you intend to install windows, but it doesn't make you pay for something you don't want. 2) I'm Trolling the list. FreeDOS, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 04:17:03 2013 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:17:03 -0400 Subject: Mir, the next generation of X Message-ID: Ubuntu has an ambitious plan to develope a next generation display server known as Mir . https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec To be honest, I wasn't even following the Wayland / Weston attempts. Now that Ubuntu already has its own Ubuntu phone and Ubuntu tablets, I start to wonder if this thing is going to fly. What do you think? Is Ubuntu pushing Mir forward single-handed, or some other players are in the ring as well? Personally I don't like Ubuntu's Unity interface, and Qt, which is what Mir is based on. But I'd like to hear you view on this. Please comment. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 04:39:30 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:39:30 -0700 Subject: Mir, the next generation of X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Question: what problem does Mir solve? Seems in many ways a solution in search of a problem. Remember how Pulseaudio "solved" all those problems with ALSA? On Mar 13, 2013 9:17 PM, "Antonio Sun" wrote: > Ubuntu has an ambitious plan to develope a next generation display server > known as Mir . > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec > > To be honest, I wasn't even following the Wayland / Weston attempts. Now > that Ubuntu already has its own Ubuntu phone and Ubuntu tablets, I start to > wonder if this thing is going to fly. What do you think? Is Ubuntu pushing > Mir forward single-handed, or some other players are in the ring as well? > > Personally I don't like Ubuntu's Unity interface, and Qt, which is what > Mir is based on. But I'd like to hear you view on this. > > Please comment. > > Thanks > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 04:52:34 2013 From: andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org (Andrew Cowie) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:52:34 +1100 Subject: Mir, the next generation of X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1363236754.14997.10.camel@turminder-xuss.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 00:17 -0400, Antonio Sun wrote: > Please comment. Canonical is at it again. It doesn't really matter that they think they can do well. It's that they're doing it by themselves, rather than as a part of the [existing] community. I'd encourage you to watch http://mirror.linux.org.au/linux.conf.au/2013/mp4/The_real_story_behind_Wayland_and_X.mp4 which is the recording of a talk Daniel Stone gave at LCA this year, http://lca2013.linux.org.au/schedule/30256/view_talk?day=friday Most of the talk is describing all the things that have piled up as a result of ~4 decades of decisions in the design and implementation of the X server. I'll apologize for encouraging you to watch something where there are lots of interjections from the audience that didn't make it to the audio track, but the room was full of X hackers, notably Kieth Packard [X.org] and Carl Worth [cairo graphics]. I think that Linus guy was there, too. The end result is that [people who would know] having described all of X's shortcomings, they then describe what Wayland *is*. It didn't take very long. Wow. I can't wait. You can draw your own conclusions, but it's pretty impressive when people can step back from their work, learn from it, and head in a new direction. I'm sure Canonical will have fun writing Mir, but they're not going to have much help from the rest of us. AfC Sydney -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 13:41:33 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:41:33 -0400 Subject: Project brings new meaning to the phrase 'back it up'. Message-ID: https://github.com/panicsteve/cloud-to-butt -- Thomas Milne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 14:25:48 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:25:48 -0400 Subject: Project brings new meaning to the phrase 'back it up'. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > https://github.com/panicsteve/cloud-to-butt I think it's irony to observe that one of the ads that my web browser shows when reading this email is entitled "FTP in the Cloud(tm)". Back it up, indeed... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 14:25:55 2013 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:25:55 -0400 Subject: Ability to buy bare machines. (Was: PC with a GPL'd OS pre-installed) In-Reply-To: <5140C0F8.9020700-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <513F8393.5090305@ss.org> <20130312200453.e55df9ce658243581301e334@eol.ca> <5140C0F8.9020700@ss.org> Message-ID: hi all. don't post here much, but thought i might jump in. Regarding the windows tax. i'd agree entirely except that you the consumer never pay it. it is payed by the crapware vendors who pay to have their software installed as well. that is why windows machines are cheaper then bare bones. just buy it with windows and thank the crapware vendors for the subsidy as you are reformatting with your favourite distro. On 2013-03-13 2:10 PM, "Scott Sullivan" wrote: > On 03/12/2013 08:04 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > >> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:35:47 -0400 >> Scott Sullivan wrote: >> >>> I know it's not Linux, but short of building your own machine, this is >>> the closest to "sell me a bare, but pre-built machine" I've seen. Aka, >>> No Windows Tax >>> >> >> Scott, >> >> A few years ago, I bought an Acer Aspire 3623 with something called >> Linpus Linux on it. This was not at all functional, and I quickly >> replaced it with Fedora_3. The machine is now retired, primarily >> > > because the keyboard sucks. I am now happy with my Fujitsu Lifebook. > >> I touch type. An encrypted /home partition, a long encryption key, >> t ouch typing and a bad keyboard do not work. :( >> >> > Hello Howard, > > I remember Linpus rather well, the distro it's self was a Fedora > derivative and come install on my Acer Aspire One. I had bought that in the > first wave of netbooks and yes, it's keyboard sucked and I also upgrade to > a full Fedora later. > > The real point of the post was somewhere else entirely. > > 1) We shouldn't have to build our own machines in order to have a choices > of OS. > > On the above point, when selling hardware that bundles an OS, that alright > if that's your business model and it's free. But if the OS is not free, I > want the option not to take it. This is what I found interesting about the > Sapphire PC listed. It leaves the option of the OS open to you. They ship > you the drivers along assuming you intend to install windows, but it > doesn't make you pay for something you don't want. > > 2) I'm Trolling the list. > > FreeDOS, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!**!! > > -- > Scott Sullivan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 14:47:26 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:47:26 -0400 Subject: Mir, the next generation of X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130314144726.GJ11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:17:03AM -0400, Antonio Sun wrote: > Ubuntu has an ambitious plan to develope a next generation display server > known as Mir . > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec > > To be honest, I wasn't even following the Wayland / Weston attempts. Now > that Ubuntu already has its own Ubuntu phone and Ubuntu tablets, I start to > wonder if this thing is going to fly. What do you think? Is Ubuntu pushing > Mir forward single-handed, or some other players are in the ring as well? > > Personally I don't like Ubuntu's Unity interface, and Qt, which is what Mir > is based on. But I'd like to hear you view on this. Well at this point Ubuntu is the only user left of upstart as far as I know, and no one else cares. They are the only user of Unity, and no one else wants to touch it. Not sure why they think this will make anyone care either. Getting rid of X11 would be like trying to release a version of Windows that didn't run existing windows applications. Sure getting rid of an old API might be desirable, but people want to be able to actually do useful things with it too. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 14:52:51 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:52:51 -0400 Subject: Mir, the next generation of X In-Reply-To: <1363236754.14997.10.camel-h+bEsSVjjEvomGmVskzo88GHMNzfLsLvu/SBMH9hmaLwNE34jsGUJe658FiBabzs@public.gmane.org> References: <1363236754.14997.10.camel@turminder-xuss.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> Message-ID: <20130314145251.GK11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 03:52:34PM +1100, Andrew Cowie wrote: > Canonical is at it again. It doesn't really matter that they think they > can do well. It's that they're doing it by themselves, rather than as a > part of the [existing] community. > > I'd encourage you to watch > http://mirror.linux.org.au/linux.conf.au/2013/mp4/The_real_story_behind_Wayland_and_X.mp4 > which is the recording of a talk Daniel Stone gave at LCA this year, > http://lca2013.linux.org.au/schedule/30256/view_talk?day=friday > > Most of the talk is describing all the things that have piled up as a > result of ~4 decades of decisions in the design and implementation of > the X server. I'll apologize for encouraging you to watch something > where there are lots of interjections from the audience that didn't make > it to the audio track, but the room was full of X hackers, notably Kieth > Packard [X.org] and Carl Worth [cairo graphics]. I think that Linus guy > was there, too. > > The end result is that [people who would know] having described all of > X's shortcomings, they then describe what Wayland *is*. It didn't take > very long. Wow. I can't wait. > > You can draw your own conclusions, but it's pretty impressive when > people can step back from their work, learn from it, and head in a new > direction. I'm sure Canonical will have fun writing Mir, but they're not > going to have much help from the rest of us. Well whatever wayland manages to do, it better start with a really good X11 emulation, because if all existing software doesn't work right away, then it isn't going to fly. Once you have full backwards compatibility through some emulation, then you can start to get people to care about using the new stuff. But you will probably never be able to completely get rid of X11 support. It just doesn't have to be the actual server. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 15:05:18 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:05:18 -0400 Subject: Mir, the next generation of X In-Reply-To: <20130314144726.GJ11991-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130314144726.GJ11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5141E72E.8060702@utoronto.ca> On 13-03-14 10:47 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Getting rid of X11 would be like trying to release a version of Windows > that didn't run existing windows applications. Sure getting rid of an > old API might be desirable, but people want to be able to actually do > useful things with it too. I'm sure they have considered backwards compatibility. I'm guessing someone, Ubuntu or Wayland or another interested party will write a wrapper for standalone applications, so that they can run in an emulated X11 environment. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 18:37:06 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: aspect ratios are going the wrong way Message-ID: Dell has a new 29" monitor on sale today for $529.99 Pixel count: 2560 x 1080 That's 4^3 : 3^3! We went from 4:3 (old fashioned TV, 20th centurty monitors) to 4^1.63 : 3^1.63 (1920:1200) to 4^2 : 3^2 (HD TV) to 4^3 : 3^3 (this goofy monitor) 16:12 == 4:3 16:10 == 1920:1200 == 2560:1600 (the best ratio you can get these days) 16:9 == 4^2 : 3^2 16:6.75 == 4^3 : 3^3 So two of these monitors, stacked, would be fairly close to good old fashioned 4:3. In the limit, we will have a single row of pixels stretching around the room. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 18:53:26 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: good deal for Nexus 7 today Message-ID: This looks like a good price ($200) for the Nexus 7: Normally these are $209 + shipping from Google Play store. These seem to be fairly hackable as Android tablets go. Wet blankets: I think Ubuntu on this is still a proof of concept (i.e. not useful for anything). I'm not convinced that has anything useful and they want money to work on it. These tablets may soon be superceded by ones with cell capability. I have a Nexus 10 which I quite like as a tablet but wish I could push into netbook capability (decent convenient keyboard, and running a conventional distro userland). I love the gorgeous display, long battery life, and silence. The new Google Pixel sounds great: it fixes many of these things, but using an i5 means (I think) that it has a fan and shorter battery life. And the price! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 18:54:52 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:54:52 -0400 Subject: aspect ratios are going the wrong way In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130314185452.GL11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 02:37:06PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Dell has a new 29" monitor on sale today for $529.99 > > > Pixel count: 2560 x 1080 > That's 4^3 : 3^3! > > We went from 4:3 (old fashioned TV, 20th centurty monitors) > to 4^1.63 : 3^1.63 (1920:1200) > to 4^2 : 3^2 (HD TV) > to 4^3 : 3^3 (this goofy monitor) > > 16:12 == 4:3 > 16:10 == 1920:1200 == 2560:1600 (the best ratio you can get these days) > 16:9 == 4^2 : 3^2 > 16:6.75 == 4^3 : 3^3 > > So two of these monitors, stacked, would be fairly close to good old > fashioned 4:3. > > In the limit, we will have a single row of pixels stretching around > the room. Well 16:9 is popular because that's what HDTV uses. I think Dell is aiming that one at people that like two monitors side by side, but hate the bezel down the middle (which really is annoying). So you are essentially getting two 1280x1080 displays side by side without the bezel in the middle. Also a lot of movie theatres are 2.35:1 these days which matches pretty much what this does. And it is conviniently the 2560 width of the 30" monsters, but with 1080 height matching full HD video height. Seems like it is somewhat a 30" 2560x1600 panel cut down in height. Probably not quite that simple though. I know they also have 2560x1440 screens. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 19:13:13 2013 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:13:13 -0400 Subject: good deal for Nexus 7 today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I think Ubuntu on this is still a proof of concept (i.e. not useful for > anything). Hugh, if you're happy with Ubuntu on the small screen, it installs easily and works well. Seems pretty good for reading book-length PDFs, and the serial console works from the other distributions I've tried. An external keyboard works well if you get the right USB adapter. I bought it to run GNOME, and for that I need to be patient... raring's gnome-shell package is too old to work with the nVidia driver (3.7/3.8 is supposed to fix this, but it's much too early for them in Ubuntu). If you watch your disk space, Unity works well for building the GNOME stack until you hit a dependency that hasn't been implemented yet in Ubuntu (at this point one of the systemd components). Here's the story so far: https://live.gnome.org/MichaelHill/Nexus7 Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 19:13:58 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:13:58 -0700 Subject: aspect ratios are going the wrong way In-Reply-To: <20130314185452.GL11991-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130314185452.GL11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Movie-wise - and possibly for games - it's not good. For general computing or coding that could be useful /w horizontally stacked windows (editor+debug etc). On Mar 14, 2013 11:55 AM, "Lennart Sorensen" wrote: > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 02:37:06PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > Dell has a new 29" monitor on sale today for $529.99 > > < > http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Monitors/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=225-4201 > > > > > > Pixel count: 2560 x 1080 > > That's 4^3 : 3^3! > > > > We went from 4:3 (old fashioned TV, 20th centurty monitors) > > to 4^1.63 : 3^1.63 (1920:1200) > > to 4^2 : 3^2 (HD TV) > > to 4^3 : 3^3 (this goofy monitor) > > > > 16:12 == 4:3 > > 16:10 == 1920:1200 == 2560:1600 (the best ratio you can get these days) > > 16:9 == 4^2 : 3^2 > > 16:6.75 == 4^3 : 3^3 > > > > So two of these monitors, stacked, would be fairly close to good old > > fashioned 4:3. > > > > In the limit, we will have a single row of pixels stretching around > > the room. > > Well 16:9 is popular because that's what HDTV uses. > > I think Dell is aiming that one at people that like two monitors side > by side, but hate the bezel down the middle (which really is annoying). > > So you are essentially getting two 1280x1080 displays side by side > without the bezel in the middle. > > Also a lot of movie theatres are 2.35:1 these days which matches pretty > much what this does. > > And it is conviniently the 2560 width of the 30" monsters, but with 1080 > height matching full HD video height. Seems like it is somewhat a 30" > 2560x1600 panel cut down in height. Probably not quite that simple > though. I know they also have 2560x1440 screens. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 19:26:28 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:26:28 -0400 Subject: good deal for Nexus 7 today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I'm not convinced that has anything useful > and they want money to work on it. I put Debian on a stock 7" Iconia with linuxonandroid. The terminal works great. Desktop, not so much - it takes several hours to start Gnome. :'( -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 20:00:50 2013 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:00:50 -0400 Subject: good deal for Nexus 7 today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > Desktop, not so much - it takes several hours to start Gnome. :'( GNOME doesn't work on the Nexus 7, but it boots pretty quickly. :-) Unity works and boots in a minute or two. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 20:49:24 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: good deal for Nexus 7 today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Michael Hill | GNOME doesn't work on the Nexus 7, but it boots pretty quickly. :-) | | Unity works and boots in a minute or two. I don't understand what that means. Clearly you mean at least that GNOME Shell doesn't work on Nexus 7 under Ubuntu. How about GNOME applications? I'm not sure what Unity is now. It used to be a shell for X applications, I think. GTK-based, I think. But now, with the announcement of Mir, I think that Unity is a brand name and design and not necessarily a particular program (I think that at least some of it/them is/are going to be QT-based). Could you elaborate on what works, how well, and what doesn't work and why? Thanks! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 21:53:58 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:53:58 -0400 Subject: aspect ratios are going the wrong way In-Reply-To: <20130314185452.GL11991-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130314185452.GL11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130314215358.GB9547@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 02:54:52PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Well 16:9 is popular because that's what HDTV uses. It's economies of scale. A lot of 1920x1080 production is for TV sets, from the 60" monstrosities down to 10" utility monitors. If you use those same screens for computer displays, that means you don't have to invest millions/billions in separate fabrication facilities. Essentially, a monitor is a TV without a tuner, or a TV is a monitor with a tuner thrown in. Using separate production facilities would raise costs substantially, which is a killer in today's budget-based PC market. Apple has been able to use "retina displays", because they've always been able to charge extra for their products. With ever-larger monitors, I've addapted to stuff like running two 960x1080 browser windows side-by-side. This is actually works better, because many websites seem to be set up by 19th-century-luddite newspaper refugees who insist on portrait mode with small columns. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 22:25:42 2013 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:25:42 -0400 Subject: good deal for Nexus 7 today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:49 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I don't understand what that means. Clearly you mean at least that > GNOME Shell doesn't work on Nexus 7 under Ubuntu. How about GNOME > applications? GNOME apps I've tried that just work... Terminal, Evince (I did the test with the 35-megabyte OOXML spec mentioned in a bug), Nautilus. The toolchain required to build jhbuild, then jhbuild GNOME, installs and gets about half-way to gnome-shell before failing. > I'm not sure what Unity is now. It used to be a shell for X > applications, I think. GTK-based, I think. But now, with the > announcement of Mir, I think that Unity is a brand name and design and > not necessarily a particular program (I think that at least some of > it/them is/are going to be QT-based). This project is over a year old, so this is the good old X/GTK-based Unity. LightDM and GDM both work, but Unity is the only session I've succeeded in launching. > Could you elaborate on what works, how well, and what doesn't work and > why? Everything I've tried has been from the dock or the command line except the command line, and launching Terminal (or anything not in the dock) is as simple as tapping the Ubuntu icon at the top of the dock and starting to type the name. After that it will show in the search results, so it's tap tap (or dock it for next time). Touch works well (except for a scrollbar on the right edge of the screen which can never be hit, but this only matters in Terminal where you can't scroll using your finger in the middle of the window). I could get used to Onboard, the on-screen keyboard, but have yet to figure out the double-click key -- I launch things from Nautilus by selecting them and hitting Enter, usually succeeding on the second try because on the first I forgot it was necessary. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 23:22:45 2013 From: tehowe-lJUvcdpYuyfIEIWhD7vHkg at public.gmane.org (Todd Howe) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:22:45 -0400 Subject: aspect ratios are going the wrong way In-Reply-To: <20130314215358.GB9547-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130314185452.GL11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130314215358.GB9547@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <1363303365.6289.2.camel@Nokia-N900> The way I always understood it is that 16:9 engages more of your (somewhat horizontal) visual field. Get a big enough 16:9 monitor, open more portrait sized windows... works for me. Why not get two? OTOH single screen mobile devices are still biased towards the vertical. Potato potahtoh ----- Original message ----- > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 02:54:52PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > > Well 16:9 is popular because that's what HDTV uses. > >? ? It's economies of scale.? A lot of 1920x1080 production is for TV > sets, from the 60" monstrosities down to 10" utility monitors.? If you > use those same screens for computer displays, that means you don't have > to invest millions/billions in separate fabrication facilities. > Essentially, a monitor is a TV without a tuner, or a TV is a monitor > with a tuner thrown in.? Using separate production facilities would > raise costs substantially, which is a killer in today's budget-based PC > market.? Apple has been able to use "retina displays", because they've > always been able to charge extra for their products. > >? ? With ever-larger monitors, I've addapted to stuff like running two > 960x1080 browser windows side-by-side.? This is actually works better, > because many websites seem to be set up by 19th-century-luddite > newspaper refugees who insist on portrait mode with small columns. > > -- > Walter Dnes > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 14 23:23:23 2013 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:23:23 -0400 Subject: good deal for Nexus 7 today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have the nexus 7. It's a good device even with android on it. Use it for reading ebooks, PDFs and watching videos and just regular browsing. I got in September. The battery also lasts a long time On 14 Mar 2013 18:25, "Michael Hill" wrote: > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:49 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier > wrote: > > > I don't understand what that means. Clearly you mean at least that > > GNOME Shell doesn't work on Nexus 7 under Ubuntu. How about GNOME > > applications? > > GNOME apps I've tried that just work... Terminal, Evince (I did the > test with the 35-megabyte OOXML spec mentioned in a bug), Nautilus. > The toolchain required to build jhbuild, then jhbuild GNOME, installs > and gets about half-way to gnome-shell before failing. > > > I'm not sure what Unity is now. It used to be a shell for X > > applications, I think. GTK-based, I think. But now, with the > > announcement of Mir, I think that Unity is a brand name and design and > > not necessarily a particular program (I think that at least some of > > it/them is/are going to be QT-based). > > This project is over a year old, so this is the good old X/GTK-based > Unity. LightDM and GDM both work, but Unity is the only session I've > succeeded in launching. > > > Could you elaborate on what works, how well, and what doesn't work and > > why? > > Everything I've tried has been from the dock or the command line > except the command line, and launching Terminal (or anything not in > the dock) is as simple as tapping the Ubuntu icon at the top of the > dock and starting to type the name. After that it will show in the > search results, so it's tap tap (or dock it for next time). > > Touch works well (except for a scrollbar on the right edge of the > screen which can never be hit, but this only matters in Terminal where > you can't scroll using your finger in the middle of the window). I > could get used to Onboard, the on-screen keyboard, but have yet to > figure out the double-click key -- I launch things from Nautilus by > selecting them and hitting Enter, usually succeeding on the second try > because on the first I forgot it was necessary. > > Mike > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 15 00:10:30 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 20:10:30 -0400 Subject: good deal for Nexus 7 today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130315001030.GA30634@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 07:23:23PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: > I have the nexus 7. It's a good device even with android on it. Use it > for reading ebooks, PDFs and watching videos and just regular > browsing. I got in September. The battery also lasts a long time I don't like my Nexus 7: - you need to two hands to handle it, so your thumbs easily touch the screen. - 7" screen is too small for anything. Spoiled by fullsize monitor, I guess. - portability wasn't all it's cracked up to be: - watching movie while sitting on toilet? ... get a life. - in bed? ... my arm hurts. - when eating? ... you have to washing afterwards. - while driving? ... - email? ... can't type on this thing, and can't use my keyboard. - web? ... can't use my mouse. I think "tablet" will go the way of "netbook". You have "cell phone" at one end and "laptop" at the other end. The middle will be squeezed more and more, as time goes on. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 15 06:25:33 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 02:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mir, the next generation of X In-Reply-To: <20130314144726.GJ11991-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130314144726.GJ11991@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | Well at this point Ubuntu is the only user left of upstart as far as | I know, and no one else cares. They are the only user of Unity, and | no one else wants to touch it. Not sure why they think this will make | anyone care either. I've not paid close attention over the years. My impression was that upstart was a reasonable attempt at cleaning up the System V initscript system. Upstart was probably an improvement. But the key requirement for it to improve the world was the long-term process of getting everyone to buy in and use it. Red Hat did, for a while. I take that as an indication that upstart wasn't horrible. systemd is probably better (my guess), but it is large and has a lot of moving parts. Not my favourite state of affairs. Now: what else has Canonical created that others were able/willing to adopt? All I can think of is Simple Scan. I find it a mixed blessing: it makes scanning a lot simpler but it crashes a lot (on Ubuntu and Fedora). And it's not new -- there's no excuse. The controls could be better too, but that's a matter of taste. Oh, who wrote Simple Scan? Apparently Robert Ancell based on the PPA (). He's the Mir project leader. Other than that, Canonical is mostly a free-rider. Which is fine. Except that Shuttleworth talks as if it is otherwise. I read this old series about Unity vs GNOME. A long read. It shows to me that Suttleworth is a politician and a salesman -- he talks slickly but inaccurately. Perhaps like Steve Jobs: with a reality distortion field. It might be a good thing but I'm allergic. The creation of Mir seems very similar. The reasons put forward in the Mir Spec seem wrong, confusing, or unconvincing. I've enjoyed having Ubuntu as a choice up until now. I suspect it is going to be less useful to me in the future. I will miss Mythbuntu. But the sky hasn't fallen yet. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 15 18:35:47 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:35:47 -0400 Subject: Video codecs: The ugly business behind pretty pictures Message-ID: Some insight re history of video codecs and patents http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source-software/video-codecs-the-ugly-business-behind-pretty-pictures-214525 -- Thomas Milne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 15 19:04:10 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:04:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: another Windowless PC deal In-Reply-To: <513F8393.5090305-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <513F8393.5090305@ss.org> Message-ID: This long but useful RFD thread has what appears to be a great deal: With the right jujitsu, you can order a tiny PC for just over $200, including tax. But you have to read the a lot of the article, not just the first message. For example, if you order a French system, you can select DOS instead of Windows saving a whole bunch. But how to do that isn't obvious. Tricks I remember: - use the Lenovo EPP when logging in (employee purchase plan) (explained in #1) - (before adding to cart!), select French - downgrade the CPU to the Celeron G1610T (explained in #1) - consider adding Intel combo wireless card (I think that it supports 802.11whatever + Bluetooth) for $30 - select free wireless keyboard and mouse. Use choice 445 because that is actually an English keyboard. - add to cart - edit your order. At this point DOS option shows up. But many of your other choices might have been washed away: fix them - use the coupon code CAXDISCOUNT on purchase page (explained in #1) Warning: - this might be a price error and Lenovo might cancel orders - USB2 only - VGA and DisplayPort only. Use a cheap dongle to get HDMI or (single-link) DVI. - DisplayPort *might* not have sound. That would be stupid, but it is true of some other Lenovo models. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 15 21:32:34 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:32:34 -0400 Subject: another Windowless PC deal In-Reply-To: References: <513F8393.5090305@ss.org> Message-ID: <20130315213234.GA5378@node1.opengeometry.net> Yeah, selecting French, then adding to cart, and then choosing DOS gave me $178.50. Why do they always have sale after I bought stuffs!! -- William On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 03:04:10PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > This long but useful RFD thread has what appears to be a great deal: > > > With the right jujitsu, you can order a tiny PC for just over $200, > including tax. But you have to read the a lot of the article, not just > the first message. > > For example, if you order a French system, you can select DOS instead of > Windows saving a whole bunch. But how to do that isn't obvious. > > Tricks I remember: > > - use the Lenovo EPP when logging in (employee purchase plan) (explained > in #1) > > - (before adding to cart!), select French > > - downgrade the CPU to the Celeron G1610T (explained in #1) > > - consider adding Intel combo wireless card (I think that it supports > 802.11whatever + Bluetooth) for $30 > > - select free wireless keyboard and mouse. Use choice 445 because > that is actually an English keyboard. > > - add to cart > > - edit your order. At this point DOS option shows up. But many of > your other choices might have been washed away: fix them > > - use the coupon code CAXDISCOUNT on purchase page (explained in #1) > > Warning: > > - this might be a price error and Lenovo might cancel orders > > - USB2 only > > - VGA and DisplayPort only. Use a cheap dongle to get HDMI or > (single-link) DVI. > > - DisplayPort *might* not have sound. That would be stupid, but it is > true of some other Lenovo models. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 15 22:03:21 2013 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:03:21 -0400 Subject: Steam for Linux Message-ID: <51439AA9.3020206@yaknet.ca> Well my son has been harassing me about this daily since he found out. Although not very recent news it does address more of the Linux gaming short fall. Well I don't think it has a short fall as I rarely play games. I was addicted to Tremulous for a while because my son and I both played. http://store.steampowered.com/news/9943/ John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 16 18:00:30 2013 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 14:00:30 -0400 Subject: Steam for Linux In-Reply-To: <51439AA9.3020206-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <51439AA9.3020206@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: <5144B33E.4000400@yaknet.ca> On 13-03-15 06:03 PM, John Myshrall wrote: > Well my son has been harassing me about this daily since he found out. > Although not very recent news it does address more of the Linux gaming > short fall. Well I don't think it has a short fall as I rarely play > games. I was addicted to Tremulous for a while because my son and I > both played. > > http://store.steampowered.com/news/9943/ > > John For those who are interested. It seems to work ok however some of the games are quite large to down load. Team Fortress 2 took 5 hours to download as it is over 12 gigs. I then copied most of the files over to another machine to save downloading again on that machine. There are lots of free games and other that you can purchase. There is one issue with the install I found out. You have to make an install directory for flash. See here for a work around. http://www.webupd8.org/2013/01/how-to-get-flash-player-to-work-with.html John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 00:15:49 2013 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 20:15:49 -0400 Subject: case command and regex Message-ID: I am trying to write a usable regex for the case command in a shell script. For example: --- #!/bin/bash # testscript $1 if [[ $1 =~ [\+\-]([0-9]+)+$ ]]; then echo "Match is $1" else echo "No match." fi while [ $# -gt 0 ]; do case $1 in [\+\-]\([0-9]+\)+$ ) echo "Match is $1" exit ;; * ) echo "No match." exit ;; esac done --- ... and if I run "./testscript +77" I get: Match is +77 No match. I know I have the syntax messed up somehow in the case regex example but I have tried it many different ways and can't seem to get it right. I have tried extglob as well and no joy. If anyone could see what I am missing it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! -- (o< .: per curiositas ad astra .: http://www.circuidipity.com (/)_ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 00:20:36 2013 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 20:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: case command and regex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Mar 2013, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > I am trying to write a usable regex for the case command in a shell > script. For example: The case statement does not use regex; it uses globbing, as in filename expanson. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 02:53:35 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:53:35 -0400 Subject: case command and regex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130317025335.GA30103@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 08:15:49PM -0400, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > I am trying to write a usable regex for the case command in a shell > script. For example: > > --- > > #!/bin/bash > # testscript $1 > if [[ $1 =~ [\+\-]([0-9]+)+$ ]]; then > echo "Match is $1" > else > echo "No match." > fi > > while [ $# -gt 0 ]; do > case $1 in > [\+\-]\([0-9]+\)+$ ) echo "Match is $1" > exit > ;; > * ) echo "No match." > exit > ;; > esac > done > > --- > > ... and if I run "./testscript +77" I get: > > Match is +77 > No match. > > I know I have the syntax messed up somehow in the case regex example > but I have tried it many different ways and can't seem to get it > right. I have tried extglob as well and no joy. > > If anyone could see what I am missing it would be greatly appreciated! > Thanks! Case statement takes glob(7) pattern, not regular expression. Well, 'extglob' is in the right direction. Try case $1 in [+-]+([0-9]) ) echo "Match is $1" ;; * ) echo "No match." ;; esac -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 02:59:36 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:59:36 -0400 Subject: English keyboard on Lenovo/Toshiba laptop? Message-ID: <20130317025935.GA30336@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi, I've browsed through Toshiba and Lenovo website, and notived that all their laptops come with "Canadian Bilingual" keyboard. That won't do for me. I need English keyboard (laptop keyboard is bad enough as is). Do you know how you can order a laptop with English keyboard? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 03:01:51 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:01:51 -0400 Subject: English keyboard on Lenovo/Toshiba laptop? In-Reply-To: <20130317025935.GA30336-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130317025935.GA30336@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130317030151.GA30369@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59:36PM -0400, William Park wrote: > Hi, > > I've browsed through Toshiba and Lenovo website, and notived that all > their laptops come with "Canadian Bilingual" keyboard. That won't do > for me. I need English keyboard (laptop keyboard is bad enough as is). > > Do you know how you can order a laptop with English keyboard? If it has to be Bilingual keyboard, then it better be dirt cheap to make it worth it. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 03:22:21 2013 From: ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org (Ian Garmaise) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:22:21 -0400 Subject: English keyboard on Lenovo/Toshiba laptop? In-Reply-To: <20130317030151.GA30369-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130317025935.GA30336@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130317030151.GA30369@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: I'm planning to buy a Lenovo E430 next week. Looking at the customization page (on the Canadian site) for this model, I see three choices for keyboard: US English (the default) French Acnor Canadian French This is a Thinkpad Edge. The situation may be different for the consumer models like G570 etc. Ian On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 11:01 PM, William Park wrote: > On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59:36PM -0400, William Park wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I've browsed through Toshiba and Lenovo website, and notived that all > > their laptops come with "Canadian Bilingual" keyboard. That won't do > > for me. I need English keyboard (laptop keyboard is bad enough as is). > > > > Do you know how you can order a laptop with English keyboard? > > If it has to be Bilingual keyboard, then it better be dirt cheap to make > it worth it. > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ===== Ian Garmaise Consultant Phorix Solutions Group Inc. ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org Skype: iantor Toronto: 416.432.2251 NYC: 917.512.9535 http://www.PhorixSol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 03:54:59 2013 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:54:59 -0400 Subject: case command and regex In-Reply-To: <20130317025335.GA30103-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130317025335.GA30103@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:53 PM, William Park wrote: > On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 08:15:49PM -0400, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: >> I am trying to write a usable regex for the case command in a shell >> script. For example: >> >> --- >> >> #!/bin/bash >> # testscript $1 >> if [[ $1 =~ [\+\-]([0-9]+)+$ ]]; then >> echo "Match is $1" >> else >> echo "No match." >> fi >> >> while [ $# -gt 0 ]; do >> case $1 in >> [\+\-]\([0-9]+\)+$ ) echo "Match is $1" >> exit >> ;; >> * ) echo "No match." >> exit >> ;; >> esac >> done >> >> --- >> >> ... and if I run "./testscript +77" I get: >> >> Match is +77 >> No match. >> >> I know I have the syntax messed up somehow in the case regex example >> but I have tried it many different ways and can't seem to get it >> right. I have tried extglob as well and no joy. >> >> If anyone could see what I am missing it would be greatly appreciated! >> Thanks! > > Case statement takes glob(7) pattern, not regular expression. Well, > 'extglob' is in the right direction. Try > > case $1 in > [+-]+([0-9]) ) echo "Match is $1" ;; > * ) echo "No match." ;; > esac Thanks William and Chris! The point about globbing narrowed my search and: shopt -s extglob case $1 in [+-]+([0-9]) ) echo "Match is $1" ;; * ) echo "No match." ;; esac ... indeed works as desired. I was jumbling up the regex and globbing earlier ... the manpage was a help as well as this LJ article: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/bash-extended-globbing -- (o< .: per curiositas ad astra .: http://www.circuidipity.com (/)_ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 04:25:12 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:25:12 -0400 Subject: case command and regex In-Reply-To: References: <20130317025335.GA30103@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130317042511.GA31187@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 11:54:59PM -0400, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:53 PM, William Park wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 08:15:49PM -0400, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > >> if [[ $1 =~ [\+\-]([0-9]+)+$ ]]; then > >> echo "Match is $1" > >> else > >> echo "No match." > >> fi Also, I think you can omit \, because it loses its meaning inside []. So, if [[ $1 =~ ^[+-][0-9]+$ ]]; then should do equally well. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 04:37:12 2013 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:37:12 -0400 Subject: case command and regex In-Reply-To: <20130317042511.GA31187-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130317025335.GA30103@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130317042511.GA31187@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 12:25 AM, William Park wrote: >> >> if [[ $1 =~ [\+\-]([0-9]+)+$ ]]; then >> >> echo "Match is $1" >> >> else >> >> echo "No match." >> >> fi > > Also, I think you can omit \, because it loses its meaning inside []. > So, > if [[ $1 =~ ^[+-][0-9]+$ ]]; then > should do equally well. Indeed ... that works and looks more clean. -- (o< .: per curiositas ad astra .: http://www.circuidipity.com (/)_ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 17 16:12:41 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:12:41 -0400 Subject: English keyboard on Lenovo/Toshiba laptop? In-Reply-To: References: <20130317025935.GA30336@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130317030151.GA30369@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <5145EB79.3030604@rogers.com> Ian Garmaise wrote: > I'm planning to buy a Lenovo E430 next week. Looking at the > customization page (on the Canadian site) for this model, > I see three choices for keyboard: > I bought an E520 last year that has a U.S. Keyboard. A friend also bought a ThinkPad a bit earlier, as it came with the proper English keyboard. IIRC, the Lenovo she had considered didn't. So perhaps the thing to do is go for a ThinkPad, rather than just Lenovo. If all else fails, buy a computer from the U.S.. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 18 14:31:06 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:31:06 -0400 Subject: English keyboard on Lenovo/Toshiba laptop? In-Reply-To: <20130317025935.GA30336-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130317025935.GA30336@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130318143106.GA1274@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59:36PM -0400, William Park wrote: > I've browsed through Toshiba and Lenovo website, and notived that all > their laptops come with "Canadian Bilingual" keyboard. That won't do > for me. I need English keyboard (laptop keyboard is bad enough as is). > > Do you know how you can order a laptop with English keyboard? Thinkpads can be ordered with US keyboards. Ideapads seem to vary what they have available at any given time. Sometimes they have stock with canadian, sometimes us keyboard. Certainly the thinkpad W530 I bought in november has a nice backlit US keyboard because that's what I wanted. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 18 14:32:13 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 10:32:13 -0400 Subject: English keyboard on Lenovo/Toshiba laptop? In-Reply-To: References: <20130317025935.GA30336@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130317030151.GA30369@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130318143213.GB1274@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 11:22:21PM -0400, Ian Garmaise wrote: > I'm planning to buy a Lenovo E430 next week. Looking at the customization > page (on the Canadian site) for this model, > I see three choices for keyboard: > > US English (the default) > French Acnor > Canadian French > > This is a Thinkpad Edge. The situation may be different for the consumer > models like G570 etc. Yeah thinkpad line is customizeable (so you can pick better intel wifi and such and sane keyboard). Ideapads are not customizable. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 18 22:29:53 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 18:29:53 -0400 Subject: ssh agent troubles Message-ID: I'm running into an odd situation where my shell loses connectivity to ssh-agent. I'll commonly set things up via: % ssh-agent zsh [which starts a fresh zsh, and all is good...] % ssh-add -l 2048 d3:b8:ab:c1:a8:f8:03:a7:31:b7:ad:a2:40:ec:70:40 cbbrowne at cbbrowne (RSA) 2048 03:c3:e6:2e:1a:8c:08:9c:84:ab:3f:0a:d9:2d:9a:71 cbbrowne at cbbrowne (RSA) 2048 31:34:0f:bc:90:bf:1f:fd:4a:49:7f:ad:44:04:4c:62 cbbrowne at wolfe (RSA) Lovely, I have some of my favorite ssh keys in place. But a little bit of time passes, and, for inexplicable reason, ability to connect fails. I find my ssh connection requests asking either for passwords (for remote hosts) or for the passphrase for the key. % ssh-add -l Could not open a connection to your authentication agent. I still have legitimate values for $SSH_AGENT_PID and $SSH_AUTH_SOCK, and if I search for the PID, it's an agent that's still running. % echo $SSH_AGENT_PID 2737 % ps auxww | egrep 2737 | grep agent cbbrowne 2737 0.0 0.0 12392 772 ? Ss 17:58 0:00 ssh-agent Curiously, if I start another child shell, everything's fine again, for a little while... % ssh-agent zsh [new shell] % echo $SSH_AGENT_PID 2737 And I have intermittent success at using the agent, again. Until it decides to stop. Quoi?!?!? -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 18 23:08:07 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:08:07 -0400 Subject: ssh agent troubles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51479E57.6030004@utoronto.ca> On 13-03-18 06:29 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > I'm running into an odd situation where my shell loses connectivity to > ssh-agent. > > I'll commonly set things up via: > % ssh-agent zsh > [which starts a fresh zsh, and all is good...] > % ssh-add -l > 2048 d3:b8:ab:c1:a8:f8:03:a7:31:b7:ad:a2:40:ec:70:40 cbbrowne at cbbrowne (RSA) > 2048 03:c3:e6:2e:1a:8c:08:9c:84:ab:3f:0a:d9:2d:9a:71 cbbrowne at cbbrowne (RSA) > 2048 31:34:0f:bc:90:bf:1f:fd:4a:49:7f:ad:44:04:4c:62 cbbrowne at wolfe (RSA) > > Lovely, I have some of my favorite ssh keys in place. > > But a little bit of time passes, and, for inexplicable reason, ability > to connect > fails. I find my ssh connection requests asking either for passwords > (for remote > hosts) or for the passphrase for the key. > > % ssh-add -l > Could not open a connection to your authentication agent. > > I still have legitimate values for $SSH_AGENT_PID and $SSH_AUTH_SOCK, and if I > search for the PID, it's an agent that's still running. > % echo $SSH_AGENT_PID > 2737 > % ps auxww | egrep 2737 | grep agent > cbbrowne 2737 0.0 0.0 12392 772 ? Ss 17:58 0:00 ssh-agent > > Curiously, if I start another child shell, everything's fine again, for a little > while... > % ssh-agent zsh > [new shell] > % echo $SSH_AGENT_PID > 2737 > > And I have intermittent success at using the agent, again. Until it decides > to stop. Quoi?!?!? You'll need to do three things to debug this: 1) start ssh-agent with -d to enable debug (non daemon mode). Do this without spawning a zsh session to test. This is shell 1. If you want to make it easy in step 2, start with -a and make an easy to remember agent name. 2) In a second shell run strace on the pid of the ssh agent. Capture this output to a file or somewhere safe for analysis. This is shell 2. 3) export the SSH_AGENT_PID and SSH_AUTH_SOCK variables in another fresh shell. This is done in a new shell, shell 3. Add your keys and operate as you normally would in shell 3, or 4 or 5 or however many you want to use with the exported variables. I suggest testing with bash as well to see if it is specific to zsh (I've never encountered this). The key is using the same auth socket and seeing what triggers the agent to die via strace or the debug output from ssh-agent. If it is not something you can reproduce, then I suspect it is something causing the spawned zsh to exit silently, e.g. a ctrl+c or d or something. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 18 23:11:04 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:11:04 -0400 Subject: ssh agent troubles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130318231104.GA26527@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 06:29:53PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > I'm running into an odd situation where my shell loses connectivity to > ssh-agent. > > I'll commonly set things up via: > % ssh-agent zsh > [which starts a fresh zsh, and all is good...] > % ssh-add -l > 2048 d3:b8:ab:c1:a8:f8:03:a7:31:b7:ad:a2:40:ec:70:40 cbbrowne at cbbrowne (RSA) > 2048 03:c3:e6:2e:1a:8c:08:9c:84:ab:3f:0a:d9:2d:9a:71 cbbrowne at cbbrowne (RSA) > 2048 31:34:0f:bc:90:bf:1f:fd:4a:49:7f:ad:44:04:4c:62 cbbrowne at wolfe (RSA) > > Lovely, I have some of my favorite ssh keys in place. > > But a little bit of time passes, and, for inexplicable reason, ability > to connect fails. I find my ssh connection requests asking either for > passwords (for remote hosts) or for the passphrase for the key. > > % ssh-add -l > Could not open a connection to your authentication agent. Here, are you still in 'zsh' session which you started with 'ssh-agent zsh' above? > > I still have legitimate values for $SSH_AGENT_PID and $SSH_AUTH_SOCK, and if I > search for the PID, it's an agent that's still running. > % echo $SSH_AGENT_PID > 2737 > % ps auxww | egrep 2737 | grep agent > cbbrowne 2737 0.0 0.0 12392 772 ? Ss 17:58 0:00 ssh-agent > > Curiously, if I start another child shell, everything's fine again, for a little > while... > % ssh-agent zsh > [new shell] > % echo $SSH_AGENT_PID > 2737 > > And I have intermittent success at using the agent, again. Until it decides > to stop. Quoi?!?!? > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 19 03:22:16 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:22:16 -0400 Subject: 2 min cycle on Wireless connection? Message-ID: <20130319032216.GA28586@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi, My wireless connection goes to 0Mbps for about 2 second every 2 minutes. I used to blame it on flaky hardware, driver, or something. But, now that 3.8.3 kernel is stable ('dmesg' is very quiet), it may be my router or my ISP (Teksavvy). Anyone notice a similar 2min cycle on their wireless throughput? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From s at sadiqs.com Tue Mar 19 03:27:31 2013 From: s at sadiqs.com (Sadiq Saif) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:27:31 -0400 Subject: 2 min cycle on Wireless connection? In-Reply-To: <20130319032216.GA28586-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130319032216.GA28586@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <5147DB23.4050707@sadiqs.com> On 3/18/2013 23:22, William Park wrote: > Hi, > > My wireless connection goes to 0Mbps for about 2 second every 2 minutes. > I used to blame it on flaky hardware, driver, or something. But, now > that 3.8.3 kernel is stable ('dmesg' is very quiet), it may be my router > or my ISP (Teksavvy). > > Anyone notice a similar 2min cycle on their wireless throughput? > Few questions: - What router model is it? - How far are you from the AP? - Is there any interference, electromagnetic or otherwise (microwaves, cordless phones etc.)? -- Sadiq Saif -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 19 17:20:16 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 2 min cycle on Wireless connection? In-Reply-To: <20130319032216.GA28586-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130319032216.GA28586@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: | From: William Park | My wireless connection goes to 0Mbps for about 2 second every 2 minutes. | I used to blame it on flaky hardware, driver, or something. But, now | that 3.8.3 kernel is stable ('dmesg' is very quiet), it may be my router | or my ISP (Teksavvy). | | Anyone notice a similar 2min cycle on their wireless throughput? That sounds like the kind of time it takes router firmware to reboot. Could it be crashing and rebooting? If you have a wired connection to the router, does it display the same pauses? Is there a connection that avoids the router? If so, is it still active? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 22 11:19:49 2013 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:19:49 -0400 Subject: PGP key signing? Message-ID: <514C3E55.10700@gmail.com> I see that several of the TLUG folks are listed on Biglumber.com: http://biglumber.com/x/web?qs=Toronto Has the group had a key signing event recently? Would anyone be interested in having a key signing get-together? cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 10:53:12 2013 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 10:53:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... Message-ID: I just read this, it seems to be related to an older scam which was canned recently. It is not at all clear what these people are doing, technically. How would this affect a linux user? http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/03/21/joe-oconnor-microsoft-windows-scam-a-grift-that-keeps-giving-for-cyber-crooks/ Note that I am in Europe, i.e. not in Canada, and not in Bangladesh... tia, --Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 11:07:27 2013 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 11:07:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Video codecs: The ugly business behind pretty pictures References: Message-ID: Thomas Milne writes: > Some insight re history of video codecs and patents It is really simple. Codec makers see this as a 'commercial opportunity' to make money from something which was previously not trasiting their toll charging schemes, i.e. video content. There is no point in whining about it, it is normal for people to try that, just as it is normal for patent trolls to keep trying to corner a bit of the market. What is not normal, is a whine reaction from open source users, instead of focusing on promotion of open source/free use codecs, of which there is no real shortage. I.o.w. the normal reaction should be, to counter any such article with another 1-2-3 emphasizing non commercial licensed codecs, such as ogg and others. I have to deal with voip issues where hardware makers use every opportunity to foist preset encumbered codecs in their devices, although the do not make a dime on that, and I have scripts and procedures to back out of G729 to safe/sane G711 all the time. This is not an accident, it is a long term war, and the actions and reactions caused by it are here to stay. I would like to know if I can send the bill for my efforts required to make standard hardware work with standard codecs in an Asterisk pbx context to the clever people who foist the bad sounding proprietary codecs upon us all the time (answer: no, I can't, but with enough pulic pressure that could change). So please do not whine about these things, write some oganization or political figure who might help implementing the change instead. Aside: The craptacular "quality" of phone connections including on landline is only fully revealed, when one uses international connections using G711 (plain old jane ulaw or alaw) over Asterisk, at only 64kbps standard speed. The difference between the pristine sound of plain G711 and the craptacular 'professional use' codecs used by telcos to squeeze out another 0.001 cents per minute in profits while charging $60/month for copper line service is really exe-opening. Note that 'bit stealing' and other shenanigans used to 'accommodate low rate services' alongside T1 and other telco frames were already described in early 1980s T1 gear datasheets. You can only imagine what goes on today. Proprietary codecs are just like that in video and everywhere else. Lack of transparency, locking to certain players and regions and a generally assured lack of quality, lack of alternatives, and lack of relief are guaranteed. If you like it, keep complining instead of doing something about it. And, no, I am not a Socialist freetard at all, I just try to make my living with technology, in despite of the unceasing attempts by some so-called media companies to finish us off as a whole, technicians, engineers, programmers and small companies. After all, we are just the tiny bump-annoyance between their goals and achieving them at the (major) expense of the public's interests, financial and moral, likewise. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 11:15:21 2013 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 11:15:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Video codecs: The ugly business behind pretty pictures References: Message-ID: Thomas Milne writes: > Some insight re history of video codecs and patents It is really simple. Codec makers see this as a 'commercial opportunity' to make money from something which was previously not trasiting their toll charging schemes, i.e. video content. There is no point in whining about it, it is normal for people to try that, just as it is normal for patent trolls to keep trying to corner a bit of the market. What is not normal, is a whine reaction from open source users, instead of focusing on promotion of open source/free use codecs, of which there is no real shortage. I.o.w. the normal reaction should be, to counter any such article with another 1-2-3 emphasizing non commercial licensed codecs, such as ogg and others. I have to deal with voip issues where hardware makers use every opportunity to foist preset encumbered codecs in their devices, although the do not make a dime on that, and I have scripts and procedures to back out of G729 to safe/sane G711 all the time. This is not an accident, it is a long term war, and the actions and reactions caused by it are here to stay. I would like to know if I can send the bill for my efforts required to make standard hardware work with standard codecs in an Asterisk pbx context to the clever people who foist the bad sounding proprietary codecs upon us all the time (answer: no, I can't, but with enough pulic pressure that could change). So please do not whine about these things, write some oganization or political figure who might help implementing the change instead. Aside: The craptacular "quality" of phone connections including on landline is only fully revealed, when one uses international connections using G711 (plain old jane ulaw or alaw) over Asterisk, at only 64kbps standard speed. The difference between the pristine sound of plain G711 and the craptacular 'professional use' codecs used by telcos to squeeze out another 0.001 cents per minute in profits while charging $60/month for copper line service is really exe-opening. Note that 'bit stealing' and other shenanigans used to 'accommodate low rate services' alongside T1 and other telco frames were already described in early 1980s T1 gear datasheets. You can only imagine what goes on today. Proprietary codecs are just like that in video and everywhere else. Lack of transparency, locking to certain players and regions and a generally assured lack of quality, lack of alternatives, and lack of relief are guaranteed. If you like it, keep complining instead of doing something about it. And, no, I am not a Socialist freetard at all, I just try to make my living with technology, in despite of the unceasing attempts by some so-called media companies to finish us off as a whole, technicians, engineers, programmers and small companies. After all, we are just the tiny bump-annoyance between their goals and achieving them at the (major) expense of the public's interests, financial and moral, likewise. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 12:10:51 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 08:10:51 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I I used to receive these sorts of calls from the "Windows service Center" quite frequently, and the once I challenged their honesty I got hurled abuse (*&$* you in the a$$!!!). I haven't gotten any of these calls in months, tho. perhaps the scam has passed its best before date, at least for cold calling. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 12:17:33 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 08:17:33 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As for Linux effects, I played that script out once, and their remote control client seemed to have a Linux version, albeit being wacky harder to deploy than on Windows. It wasn't just sudo ;-)! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 14:22:30 2013 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 10:22:30 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1364048550.2320.8.camel@tecumseth3> On Sat, 2013-03-23 at 10:53 +0000, Peter wrote: > I just read this, it seems to be related to an older scam which was canned > recently. It is not at all clear what these people are doing, technically. How > would this affect a linux user? If it were me, I wouldn't plant a glitch which I fix for $40; I would plant malware to recruit the victim into a botnet. Recent posts in Krebs on Security detail how open and commercial these operations are getting. Apparently (IIRC, it's not in the link I post here) you can join a DDoS-of-the-month club for $10 a month, payable through PayPal. http://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/03/the-obscurest-epoch-is-today/#more-19478 That would, indirectly, be the biggest effect on Linux users. Mel. > > http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/03/21/joe-oconnor-microsoft-windows-scam-a-grift-that-keeps-giving-for-cyber-crooks/ > > Note that I am in Europe, i.e. not in Canada, and not in Bangladesh... > > tia, > --Peter > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 15:31:09 2013 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 11:31:09 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> On 13-03-23 06:53 AM, Peter wrote: > I just read this, it seems to be related to an older scam which was canned > recently. It is not at all clear what these people are doing, technically. How > would this affect a linux user? > > http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/03/21/joe-oconnor-microsoft-windows-scam-a-grift-that-keeps-giving-for-cyber-crooks/ > > Note that I am in Europe, i.e. not in Canada, and not in Bangladesh... > > tia, > --Peter > > These parasites are an outlet for me. I made it a point to keep them on the phone as much as possible. Best time was around half an hour. I told the person several times I was clicking on a Linux desktop icon. They didn't clue in. Finally I just told her I'm not running Windows and I did not approve of what she was trying to do. She said sorry and hung up. The last time they called me. I played along and made up a story that my computer was asking for his IP. The caller asked me after about 15 minutes if I was running "Line-nux". I told him it was pronounced "Lin-nux" and yes I was. He hung up. I have made sure my family members and friends are aware of these parasites. Typically I grab a cup of coffee or a beer and keep them tied up as long as possible. I think they finally clued in but now I really miss screwing with them :-( The first time it happened I did report the number to local, provincial and federal fraud squads. I did get a call back from the provincial fraud squad and they said there was nothing they could do. The number was from a soon to be listed Wisconsin area code. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 17:24:27 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 13:24:27 -0400 Subject: PGP key signing? In-Reply-To: <514C3E55.10700-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <514C3E55.10700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > I see that several of the TLUG folks are listed on Biglumber.com: > http://biglumber.com/x/web?qs=Toronto > > Has the group had a key signing event recently? Would anyone be > interested in having a key signing get-together? We haven't, and perhaps it's an idea to do some crypto-related mini-talks, including a key signing. There will be discussion of upcoming meeting plans on Monday, I'll make sure I bring this up as an idea. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 20:00:45 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 16:00:45 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: <514DCABD.9020103-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: <514E09ED.4000902@rogers.com> John Myshrall wrote: > I made it a point to keep them on the phone as much as possible. What I have often done, with telemarketers in general, is to let them get going on their spiel and then quietly put them on hold. I then watch the line light on the phone, to see how long it takes them to clue in. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 20:19:24 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 16:19:24 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: <514DCABD.9020103-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: <514E0E4C.80909@ve3syb.ca> On 13-03-23 11:31 AM, John Myshrall wrote: > The first time it happened I did report the number to local, provincial and > federal fraud squads. I did get a call back from the provincial fraud squad > and they said there was nothing they could do. The number was from a soon to > be listed Wisconsin area code. If you had felt like it at the time you could have contacted the US federal authorities. I wouldn't have any fun with one of these calls as calls at my house are screened. We let the answering machine pick up first as we get so many calls from telemarketers. We have had up to 6 calls in a day. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 20:27:39 2013 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 16:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: <514E0E4C.80909-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> <514E0E4C.80909@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Mar 2013, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 13-03-23 11:31 AM, John Myshrall wrote: >> The first time it happened I did report the number to local, provincial and >> federal fraud squads. I did get a call back from the provincial fraud squad >> and they said there was nothing they could do. The number was from a soon >> to >> be listed Wisconsin area code. > > If you had felt like it at the time you could have contacted the US federal > authorities. I wouldn't have any fun with one of these calls as calls at my > house are screened. We let the answering machine pick up first as we get so > many calls from telemarketers. We have had up to 6 calls in a day. I have had no telemarketing calls (well, maybe one) since getting my number on the National Do Not Call List a few years ago. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 21:00:03 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 17:00:03 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> <514E0E4C.80909@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: I haven't noticed that DNCL decreased my spam calls at all overall. I cancelled my MBNA credit card, as they were a prime caller trying to upsell additional services like insurance. Six months later, no more from them. I was similarly pleased about dropping Robbers Mobile in favor of Wind, who pester wildly less. Bell calls a few times a year to try upsell, and that is specifically permitted under DNCL. However, there was a dramatic increase after DNCL, quite possibly purely coincidental rather than causal, of calls appearing to be from the Indian subcontinent that were dramatically scammy. I have heard rumor that some Indian call centres lost contracts for real work and started freelancing the Windows Service Centre scam, and that seems quite believable. I stopped getting calls from moving services after DNCL, but there's still quite a lot of phone "spam" going around. I'm a little surprised that it has been several months since my last Windows scam call; perhaps it's waning. I suppose I should have recorded dates in a diary for statistical purposes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 22:17:56 2013 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> <514E0E4C.80909@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Mar 2013, Christopher Browne wrote: ... > Bell calls a few times a year to try upsell I stopped those calls (back when I had a Bell landline) by telling them that if I received another such call, I would switch providers. > I'm a little surprised that it has been several months since my last > Windows scam call; perhaps it's waning. I've never received any of those. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 23 23:19:01 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:19:01 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> <514E0E4C.80909@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <514E3865.8040005@ve3syb.ca> On 13-03-23 04:27 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > I have had no telemarketing calls (well, maybe one) since getting > my number on the National Do Not Call List a few years ago. I'm on the do not call list but it doesn't apply to people who are using call centers located outside the country. What the phone companies should do is block incoming calls from the call centers. That would get rid of a lot of the nuisance calls in a real hurry. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 00:40:25 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 20:40:25 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> <514E0E4C.80909@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <514E4B79.9090802@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > Bell calls a few times a year to try upsell, and that is specifically > permitted under DNCL. Well after I switched my home phone from Bell to Rogers, I started getting lots of calls from Bell, mostly for satellite, but also for Internet. My number was on the do not call list. When they called, I told them I was never to be contacted again. They persisted. I eventually started complaining to the CRTC on every occasion. That got the attention of the Bell office of the president. I made it quite clear that every time Bell tried to contact me, I would complain to the CRTC. I did so, with a copy of the complaint to the office of the president. It didn't take long for that problem to be resolved and it's been years since I've heard from them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 04:00:20 2013 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 00:00:20 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: <514E4B79.9090802-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> <514E0E4C.80909@ve3syb.ca> <514E4B79.9090802@rogers.com> Message-ID: <514E7A54.3080809@gmail.com> On 23-03-13 20:40 , James Knott wrote: > > When they called, I > told them I was never to be contacted again. They persisted. I > eventually started complaining to the CRTC on every occasion. Actually, any company you?ve done business with in the last 18 months can call you, even if you're registered on the DNCL: https://www.lnnte-dncl.gc.ca/cofi-fico-eng#link1 cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 08:20:13 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 04:20:13 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130324082013.GC19927@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 10:53:12AM +0000, Peter wrote > I just read this, it seems to be related to an older scam which was canned > recently. It is not at all clear what these people are doing, technically. How > would this affect a linux user? It would either annoy or amuse them, depending on their mood. At the risk of being called elitist, anybody who's smart enough to fight their way through a Linux install is smart enough to recognize this scam. Think of that as "the barrier". Years ago when Redhat 7.3 (RH7.3 long before Fedora7.3) was the most popular distro, there were fake "Redhat linux security updates" being spammed via email, as well as fake "Windows Security Updates". The Redhat "updates" disappeared quickly, so they apparently didn't catch very many victims. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 09:15:23 2013 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:15:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... References: <20130324082013.GC19927@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: Walter Dnes writes: > It would either annoy or amuse them, depending on their mood. At the > risk of being called elitist, anybody who's smart enough to fight their > way through a Linux install is smart enough to recognize this scam. > Think of that as "the barrier". I am not sure what to say. I cut my teeth by installing Slackware 3.0 from diskettes and recompiling the kernel as required at the time to make my hardware work (no modular drivers then). I would call that a 'barrier'. I would not call booting today's live distributions from DVD and clicking install from within those a 'barrier'. And I confess to do the latter lately. Saves time. Of course after that I play back my binary patches on top of the new system as needed. After 10 years of this the patch set, part sources, part binaries is larger than the DVD heh. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 09:17:48 2013 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:17:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> <514E0E4C.80909@ve3syb.ca> <514E3865.8040005@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: Kevin Cozens writes: > I'm on the do not call list but it doesn't apply to people who are using > call centers located outside the country. What the phone companies should do > is block incoming calls from the call centers. That would get rid of a lot > of the nuisance calls in a real hurry. Do not call lists and call blocking play a peculiar game in North America vs. Europe. Since in NA people pay for incoming calls too (especially mobile), phone companies make money on incoming calls and they are VERY hard to get to block incoming calls from anyone. You have to pay a premium price for this. -- Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 10:15:51 2013 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 10:15:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Following up on tonight's talk, Micro Controller Usb Devices References: Message-ID: Antonio Sun writes: > I just want to follow up on my question, which is on the micro controller programming side. Could you give us a brief idea what micro controller programming is all about please, Jan? I am not Jan but I am an embedded mcu guy among other things so I'll jump in here while sipping my Sunday morning (noonish) coffee: Today's mcus (microcontrollers) consist of a cpu core, flash memory, ram and io peripherals all in one integrated circuit which has pins for electrical connection to the outside on it. Some of those pins are either reserved or multiplexed with other pins and serve to clear, program, verify or update the software stored in the internal non-volatile flash memory. Each mcu family has its own protocol for programming which uses 1, 2, 3 or at most 4 pins for so-called 'serial programming'. Sometimes those are an USB interface proper, sometimes they are a serial interface, most times they represent a proprietary serial synchronous interface. In most cases they are operated at low voltage using a PC attached interface called a programmer, or an in circuit programmer. This device toggles the programming pins in a certain sequence to perform programming, verification and other functions on the mcu. The mcu can be programmed while in the final circuit where it is destined to be used, or stand alone in a socket. The former method is currently preferred. There are also other ways to program the mcus which are reserved for production, using many more pins and fast external hardware. This resumes the hardware side of programming. The software side consists in writing code in some suitable language, such as, assembler, C, Pascal, Forth etc., and then in assembling or compiling it to object code, which is then transferred to the hardware programmer and to the mcu using a cable connecting the PC to the programmer. Most development is done on a PC or equivalent workstation, but sometimes it is done on the embedded device itself, if it has a suitable interface. An example would be an Andoid phone interfaced to a robot where programming can be done on the phone itself, using its screen etc., although that would be tedious and only used for touchups and mods. Also, simulation can be performed on the host machine (PC), using suitable software, which can simulate the embedded target down to individual buttons, leds and displays, as well as deeper protocol and bit level or even DC voltage level display and multi trace digital and analogue oscilloscope type signal display. All these will be displayed on one or several workstation (PC) screens and/or application windows. Sometimes dedicated hardware interfaces are attached to a workstation to permit attachment of real size and functional interface and peripheral hardware and the simulator running in the PC uses these real hardware devices instead of the simulator avatars thereof for simulation. This is usually an expensive and complex process which is only used when other options are not satisfactory. PC based mcu development software usually comes in 2 flavors: IDE and stand alone components. An IDE is an integrated GUI which allows the user, in theory, easy access to the individual software components used to develop, simulate and program the mcu by clicking on buttons and by using familiar desktop widgets. Such IDEs are widely used but many advanced developers prefer to use makefiles and individual scriptable editors, compilers, assemblers and programmer drivers instead. Basically an IDE is a click-intensive GUI application which requires the developer to do a lot of clicking every time to complete a task, and a scripted makefile based application set or project is a one stop self contained do-it-all single cli command which performs all the necessary actions once completed and tested (that takes a while). Beginners usually start with IDEs. A further class of embedded debugging and development tools is represented by ICDs which are In Circuit Debuggers. This device acts and looks like a programmer hardware, being connected between the PC and and the target embedded board with a mcu on it, and permits the developer to interact in real time at pin io level with the target circuit, set breakpoints, alter code and so on. ICDs can be very expensive but lately ICD hardware support has been embedded in current mcus and it is common for more advanced programmers to have ICD functionality built in and readily available for very little money. ICD capable programmers start out at about $40 or so. Embedded code development is done in C, assembler or other languages. C++ plays a minor role for now, mainly due to the size of the created code which is unwieldy for embedded use today. Embedded systems have many limitations which make porting code from desktop applications a challenge. Intimate knowledge of the drivers and hardware is required, advanced knowledge in applied electronics and circuit building and measurement is required. There is no operating system, every peripheral used will have to have a driver or specialized code which enables relevant hardware parts and configures them. Each embedded code project is different. Code reuse is high, but reused code is very seldomly unmodified, at least for small mcus. Seeking help on forums and the like is a stumbling block since each device is different and people can only answer in the context of what they did before, assuming they are not talking out of their navels, which is sadly frequently the case. Relying on standard C library functions is a bad idea, as it causes code size bloat and frequently requires a mcu device larger than the one which could be used with optimized code. This directly and immediately impacts the project price, which can jump from $3 in hardware to over $30 in a second by simply choosing the wrong mcu or development environment (see above for code bloat). Basically embedded programming is writing code literally 'on the bare metal' (or bare silicon), and can be very hard and have a steep learning curve even for people with years of electronics and desktop programming experience. Easy free IDEs (Windows only from most makers, some also Linux) for popular mcus are Atmel Studio and Microchip Mplab. There are also IDEs from Cypress, ONsemi, STmicro and other MCU makers. This does not touch upon 32 bit embedded micros such as pic32 (MIPS) and ARM based 32 bit embedded mcus from NXP, Atmel, Intel and others, it refers only to 8 and 16 bit small mcus. The Arduino 'ecosystem' is based on vastly overpriced hardware modules which frequently contain just a $2 Atmel mcu and $2 or anciallary parts following a freely available schematic diagram (search for Arduino solderless breadboard version for clues) , which sells for only $29 plus tax when fully assembled, and is useless without more interfaces and parts (more $, almost as above). I wish I could mark up my devices like that. It does have a free and easy to start with IDE based on Fritzing!, which runs on Linux too and a wide following. Working through examples made by others is a good idea for starting out in embedded, but do not expect to become proficient before you put down 10 or more working projects and probably 2 years or so of real work on these things. Also beware of many MANY non working projects, and self elected 'experts' and their pretty pictures and code online which sometimes won't work or may be seriously unsafe. If it works for one person, it does not mean it will also work for you, unless you use the exact same parts and environment the original author used. In some forums I am active in, in electronics, I see daily pleas by Arduino users who have no clue about electronics or programming or safety or even what a ground wire is for in a DC circuit, asking for help on how to connect their Arduino project in impossible situations and or to lethal voltages (mains, Tesla coil, powerful motors and fire starting accumulator batteries, the works - totally scary). Meanwhile, here's a literally bare solderless Arduino clone board: http://itp.nyu.edu/physcomp/Tutorials/ArduinoBreadboard Wikipedia knows a lot about these things so people who are interested should peruse that first. Again, BEWARE of so-called information you find in colorful and attractive articles on the net posted by various people, and use discernment. site:.edu links are usually better than the average. Unlike pure software bugs, embedded bugs can and do frequently indicate a fault by killing hardware which costs money and sometimes by causing a small fire or physically exploding parts. In electronics, we call this the magic smoke. It is said that if you keep the magic smoke inside the parts, they keep working, if you let it out, then they cease doing that. Also, that if you put all of it back in, once escaped, then they start working again. But I know no-one who ever managed to put all the smoke back into a part ;). -- Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 11:21:29 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 07:21:29 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: <514E7A54.3080809-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <514DCABD.9020103@yaknet.ca> <514E0E4C.80909@ve3syb.ca> <514E4B79.9090802@rogers.com> <514E7A54.3080809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514EE1B9.3000904@rogers.com> Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 23-03-13 20:40 , James Knott wrote: >> When they called, I >> told them I was never to be contacted again. They persisted. I >> eventually started complaining to the CRTC on every occasion. > Actually, any company you?ve done business with in the last 18 months > can call you, even if you're registered on the DNCL: > https://www.lnnte-dncl.gc.ca/cofi-fico-eng#link1 > I am aware of that but this was after that period. Also, DNC list or not, if you tell a company not to call you, they have to comply. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 11:23:26 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 07:23:26 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: <20130324082013.GC19927@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <514EE22E.2000001@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > I would not call > booting today's live distributions from DVD and clicking install from within > those a 'barrier'. Well, considering most Windows users have never installed any OS... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 13:27:01 2013 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:27:01 -0400 Subject: Following up on tonight's talk, Micro Controller Usb Devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514EFF25.7060708@gmail.com> On 24-03-13 06:15 , Peter wrote: > > The Arduino 'ecosystem' is based on vastly overpriced hardware modules They're not overpriced if you haven't already invested in $000s of electronics kit. F'rinstance, that breadboard Arduino you linked to: the serial interface and the USB MCU programmer alone comes to more than the cost of an official Arduino bought at high-street prices. > ... do not expect to become proficient before you > put down 10 or more working projects ... Everyone has to start somewhere. While it might pain you ? an experienced hardware developer ? to see a flashy project that might only be using 1% of its MCU's capabilities become popular, the barriers to physical computing have been drastically lowered. If you have a project that needs to sample a few sensors in the 1 Hz ? 10 kHz range, drive a few simple outputs, and be easily controlled from the USB port, why not use an Arduino? For the few people who take this from a hobby to a career, it's important for them to learn the specifics of the trade. Prototyping isn't even on the same planet as Quantity 1,000,000 production. But you have to admit, there are a lot more interested learners out there. Every second spent complaining about newbies would be better spent designing something simple that you could sell to them at a tidy markup ... ;-) > Also beware of many MANY non working projects Yes, that can be true, sadly. A couple of Arduino projects I've been interested in have been wildly off where their creators said they were. One power meter project that generated a bit of a buzz online a couple of years back couldn't work, and when I queried the author I got a "yeah, that never quite worked, do you know how to fix it?" response. Another, the pleasantly futile Arduino hardware random number generator misses ways of correcting for component ageing, has no stop conditions if the noise circuit fails, and can't tell if external noise is being applied to attempt to throw the process. But for each one that failed, there are more examples that are well thought out, clearly documented, and work nicely. K3NG's radio projects, and Limor Fried's GPS-based toys are two that spring immediately to mind. > Wikipedia knows a lot about these things so people who are interested should > peruse that first. But then, it is written by self elected 'experts' too. I've given up trying to correct factual errors about wind power technology on Wikipedia. It's no longer fun to see one's industry standard citations overwritten by someone parroting a news release they read on TreeHugger.com. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 14:11:57 2013 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 10:11:57 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130324101157.1253a52146182455c3255ca2@eol.ca> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 10:53:12 +0000 (UTC) Peter wrote: > I just read this, it seems to be related to an older scam which was canned > recently. It is not at all clear what these people are doing, technically. How > would this affect a linux user? Peter, If you want the bad guys to remain online, you must act frightened. If you sound confident when you ask them which of your ports is open, they will realize you are a nasty person. They are offended after ten or fifteen minutes when I tell them I am running Linux. I love it. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 16:03:37 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 12:03:37 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: <20130324101157.1253a52146182455c3255ca2-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130324101157.1253a52146182455c3255ca2@eol.ca> Message-ID: My favorite way of getting them to hang up was to demand that they tell me what my IP address was, that this was a security protocol required of me. It stands to reason, if I try to play this "straight", they tell me that they have been told my computer is infected with viruses and malware, they need to know this somehow, and prerequisites include knowing my computer's address and that it's mine. So telling them that we cannot continue unless they tell me my IP address is suitably mean. If there is a specific bill from a particular session of Parliament that forbids probing peoples' computers, it would be slick to respond with something like... Sir, it seems as though your organization has been connecting to my computer without my knowledge, which clearly contravenes Section 2.718 of Bill C-3.141, from the 2014 session. I'm afraid I need to get the IP address of the computer you used to violate security, to pass on to the RCMP... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 16:20:54 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 12:20:54 -0400 Subject: Git isn't quite a backup Message-ID: People periodically murmur "RAID isn't a backup". It turns out that git isn't, either, necessarily. KDE had a near disastrous blowup of 1500 repos. http://jefferai.org/2013/03/24/too-perfect-a-mirror/ It points at the minutia that a git mirror is pretty vulnerable to anything that might break on its parent. But it looks like one should watch more carefully, broadly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 17:16:23 2013 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:16:23 -0400 Subject: Git isn't quite a backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514F34E7.1020502@gmail.com> On 24-03-13 12:20 , Christopher Browne wrote: > > It turns out that git isn't, either, necessarily. Ouch ouch ouch. I'm just learning - through the power of rsnapshot* - that real backups are hard. Stewart *: and through the utter craptasticness of Apple Time Machine, which works great until it doesn't, and then it's a mess. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 19:44:47 2013 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:44:47 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: <20130324101157.1253a52146182455c3255ca2@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20130324194447.GO8986@adb.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > My favorite way of getting them to hang up was to demand that they tell me > what my IP address was, that this was a security protocol required of me. ``Sir, your IP address is 127.0.0.1.'' -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 24 21:27:24 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: wikipedia [was Re: Following up on tonight's talk, Micro Controller Usb Devices] In-Reply-To: <514EFF25.7060708-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <514EFF25.7060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Stewart C. Russell | I've given up | trying to correct factual errors about wind power technology on | Wikipedia. It's no longer fun to see one's industry standard citations | overwritten by someone parroting a news release they read on TreeHugger.com. Please don't give up on Wikipedia. I depend on your work (and everyone elses). There are methods of resolving disputes. I've not been involved so I don't know their effectiveness. At least use the talk pages. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kenslists-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 25 01:30:22 2013 From: kenslists-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Ken Heard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 08:30:22 +0700 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: <20130324101157.1253a52146182455c3255ca2@eol.ca> Message-ID: <514FA8AE.8060701@teksavvy.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2013-03-24 23:03, Christopher Browne wrote: > If there is a specific bill from a particular session of Parliament > that forbids probing peoples' computers, it would be slick to > respond with something like... What you need to refer to is not the bill, but the Act of Parliament once the bill has become law. This is a common mistake many people make. in > Sir, it seems as though your organization has been connecting to > my computer without my knowledge, which clearly contravenes Section > 2.718 of Bill C-3.141, from the 2014 session. I'm afraid I need to > get the IP address of the computer you used to violate security, to > pass on to the RCMP... So, instead of Bill C-3.141 it would be something like "Protection against computer snooping Act". Regards, Ken Heard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFPqKwACgkQlNlJzOkJmTf8zwCbBQ7iibXv/pGQIyVComKqCO5L TAwAn1NXfZ5X8HemilVaAMCngX2B0PeX =jk+x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0xE9099937.asc Type: application/pgp-keys Size: 2381 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Mar 25 01:40:21 2013 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 21:40:21 -0400 Subject: Phone scam affects Windows only? Canadian sense of humor... In-Reply-To: References: <20130324101157.1253a52146182455c3255ca2@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20130324214021.ba92a585febe9a0ad8f02bdf@eol.ca> On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 12:03:37 -0400 Christopher Browne wrote: > My favorite way of getting them to hang up was to demand that they tell me > what my IP address was, that this was a security protocol required of me. Christopher, Then there is this response... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7OgWcwgB50 -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Mar 26 14:34:34 2013 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:34:34 -0400 Subject: Fwd: TASK March Event Reminder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This may be of general interest to group. Byron Sonne did a very well received GTALug talk in January. The "B" in room number B250 is to indicate "Basement"... Also of note, Oracle's "Virtual Box" software is available for Linux... Colin McGregor ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: TASK Steering Committee Date: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 2:39 AM Subject: TASK March Event Reminder To: "colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org" Final event reminder and details below. Hope to see you this Wednesday. Also a reminder that the SecTor first round cfp is open at http://sector.ca/cfp and that early bird registration for SecTor 2013 is also open! Date: 27 March, 2013 1800-2100 hrs Location: Leslie Dan Pharmacy Building, Room B250, 144 College Street Toronto, Ontario Talk #1: Malware Analysis with Cuckoo Sandbox Speaker: Byron L. Sonne Cuckoo Sandbox is an open source, free, automated sandbox solution that allows you to tear malware apart, discover its ins and outs, and collect data. Byron Sonne will show you how to set it up to work with Oracle's free virtualization solution, Virtual Box, and several simple malware analysis examples will be stepped through. Talk #2:The More Things Change: The vulnerabilities that time forgot Speaker: Jamie Gamble The more things change the more they stay the same. There have been numerous advances in the security field over the last 15 years yet many corporate networks are still plagued with the same vulnerabilities they were over a decade ago. If a hacker from the late 1990's had a time machine, how successful would they be at penetrating your network? This presentation will go through a quick run down of the advances and changes in the security landscape. In addition, the vulnerabilities that penetration testers are exploiting today that have been around since the 90's will be reviewed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 27 21:04:07 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 17:04:07 -0400 Subject: HispaLinux files complaint about UEFI Message-ID: http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/77645.html I suspect our own "POG" group might find it interesting to take a peek at this to see if there is any local applicability. It's possible that there's nothing apropos to do in Canada, but I couldn't evaluate that one way or another. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 27 21:14:10 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 17:14:10 -0400 Subject: HispaLinux files complaint about UEFI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130327211410.GA21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 05:04:07PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/77645.html > > I suspect our own "POG" group might find it interesting to take a peek > at this to see if there is any local applicability. It's possible > that there's nothing apropos to do in Canada, but I couldn't evaluate > that one way or another. Well on x86 machines, Microsoft can legitimately claim that they require an option to turn off secureboot as part of the windows 8 certification, but the default has to be on and with microsoft's key installed. They don't say how you turn it off, so on some systems it could be pretty hard, but that's the fault of the vendor of the machine. On the arm surface windows rt devices, Microsoft does not permit an off option. But no one cares, given they have no market there anyhow. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 27 21:19:56 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 17:19:56 -0400 Subject: HispaLinux files complaint about UEFI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130327211956.GB21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 05:04:07PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/77645.html > > I suspect our own "POG" group might find it interesting to take a peek > at this to see if there is any local applicability. It's possible > that there's nothing apropos to do in Canada, but I couldn't evaluate > that one way or another. Note that the guy from Suse is clearly confused and does not understand things properly. The option to disable UEFI which exist on some machines and allow legacy boot might disappear eventually, since that is extra code (I believe often called CSM). The option to disable secureboot however has no reason to disappear from UEFI, since it is just an on/off toggle on a feature. Turning off code is not a chunk of seperate code, it is just telling it to not be used. So yes in a few years UEFI will be the only option, but that isn't the same as "secureboot on" being the only option. Legacy boot support and secureboot are not related at all (although if secureboot is on, legacy boot is automatically off, which makes sense). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Wed Mar 27 22:04:33 2013 From: sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Steve Harvey) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: HispaLinux files complaint about UEFI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130327220433.GF12328@vex.net> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 05:04:07PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/77645.html > > I suspect our own "POG" group might find it interesting to take a peek > at this to see if there is any local applicability. It's possible > that there's nothing apropos to do in Canada, but I couldn't evaluate > that one way or another. > I have used sbsigntool to look at the EFI binaries signed by Microsoft in several "solutions", namely Xubuntu 12.04.2, Ubuntu 12.10, Linux Foundation (James Bottomley's release in February), and Fedora 18, all these 64 bit. There are always two Microsoft signed certificates present relating to a chain of trust, i.e. 1) subject=.../CN=Microsoft Windows UEFI Driver Publisher issuer=.../CN=Microsoft Corporation UEFI CA 2011 validity 2012-07-02 to 2013-10-02 2) subject=.../CN=Microsoft Corporation UEFI CA 2011 issuer=.../CN=Microsoft Corporation Third Party Marketplace Root validity 2011-06-27 to 2026-06-27 For both certificates, both "X509v3 CRL Distribution Points" and "Authority Information Access" extensions have attributes set. From the above, I wonder if any of these would be expected to be bootable in a fully compliant UEFI environment past Oct. 2nd of this year. It also looks as though Microsoft is retaining the ability to revoke any of these at any time as UEFI is generally network-aware. I suspect that in general you would have to enroll your own Machine Owner Keys and use them to sign your media if you wanted to dual-boot Windows 8 and your own custom Linux setup. A real pain! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 12:59:37 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 08:59:37 -0400 Subject: Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus Message-ID: One curious line in this story says that the attack was partly enabled by "open DNS", which it says are "known to be insecure". Thoughts? Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus http://gu.com/p/3emqz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 14:39:25 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 10:39:25 -0400 Subject: Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130328143925.GC21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 08:59:37AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > One curious line in this story says that the attack was partly enabled by > "open DNS", which it says are "known to be insecure". > > Thoughts? > > Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus > > http://gu.com/p/3emqz Plain old DNS is insecure. This is part of why DNSSEC is being pushed, but not very many places are using it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 14:48:52 2013 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 10:48:52 -0400 Subject: Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus In-Reply-To: <20130328143925.GC21770-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130328143925.GC21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130328144852.GA12052@watson-wilson.ca> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:39:25AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >Plain old DNS is insecure. This is part of why DNSSEC is being pushed, >but not very many places are using it. I want to like DNSSEC, but its complexity is off putting. Security should be simple. Inconvenient perhaps but still simple. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 15:17:16 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 11:17:16 -0400 Subject: Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus In-Reply-To: <20130328144852.GA12052-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20130328143925.GC21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130328144852.GA12052@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20130328151716.GD21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:48:52AM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:39:25AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >Plain old DNS is insecure. This is part of why DNSSEC is being pushed, > >but not very many places are using it. > > I want to like DNSSEC, but its complexity is off putting. Security > should be simple. Inconvenient perhaps but still simple. Well reality isn't simple. Security never is either. Deal with it. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 16:06:13 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:06:13 -0400 Subject: Linux Foundation Training Prepares the International Space Station for Linux Migration | Linux.com Message-ID: <51546A75.5040603@rogers.com> https://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/191-linux-training/711318-linux-foundation-training-prepares-the-international-space-station-for-linux-migration -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 16:19:42 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:19:42 -0400 Subject: Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus In-Reply-To: <20130328144852.GA12052-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20130328143925.GC21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130328144852.GA12052@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:48 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:39:25AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> >> Plain old DNS is insecure. This is part of why DNSSEC is being pushed, >> but not very many places are using it. > > > I want to like DNSSEC, but its complexity is off putting. Security > should be simple. Inconvenient perhaps but still simple. It's desirable for security to be simple; that doesn't guarantee that it will be so. What's unfortunate about DNSSEC is that it seems to make a bunch of behaviours more brittle and prone to break down, which is, in the "availability" sense, counter to 'good security.' There are inherently conflicting purposes here... - If I want to connect to my bank's web site, it is a pretty bad thing if I cannot connect to it. - It is also a pretty bad thing if I get "spoofed" onto another web site. Unfortunately, introducing DNSSEC increases the set of ways that I might discover that I can't connect to my bank's web site. It's not obvious that customers will consider that to be a "feature." -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 16:47:34 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux Foundation Training Prepares the International Space Station for Linux Migration | Linux.com In-Reply-To: <51546A75.5040603-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <51546A75.5040603@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | https://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/191-linux-training/711318-linux-foundation-training-prepares-the-international-space-station-for-linux-migration Thanks. Interesting. First part read like an add for the Linux Foundation Training Staff. I guess it is. Didn't really explain why Linux is replacing Windows. Later parts were a bit confusing. What is Debian 6? Why would moving from Scientific Linux (which release?) to Debian 6 provide more robust enterprise support? What is Robonaut? How could a humanoid robot make any sense on ISS? Seems like a crazy skeuomorphic idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 16:53:54 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:53:54 -0400 Subject: Linux Foundation Training Prepares the International Space Station for Linux Migration | Linux.com In-Reply-To: References: <51546A75.5040603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <515475A2.1080207@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Didn't really explain why Linux is replacing Windows. ?We migrated key functions from Windows to Linux because we needed an operating system that was stable and reliable ? one that would give us in-house control. So if we needed to patch, adjust or adapt, we could.? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 16:54:43 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:54:43 -0400 Subject: Linux Foundation Training Prepares the International Space Station for Linux Migration | Linux.com In-Reply-To: References: <51546A75.5040603@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 12:47 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > What is Robonaut? How could a humanoid robot make any sense on ISS? > Seems like a crazy skeuomorphic idea. "The value of a humanoid over other designs is the ability to use the same workspace and tools - not only does this improve efficiency in the types of tools, but also removes the need for specialized robotic connectors" Best, -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 17:21:45 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 13:21:45 -0400 Subject: Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like this may have been overblown somewhat, for the usual reason: greed. http://gizmodo.com/5992652/that-internet-war-apocalypse-is-a-lie On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > One curious line in this story says that the attack was partly enabled by > "open DNS", which it says are "known to be insecure". > > Thoughts? > > Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus > > http://gu.com/p/3emqz > -- Thomas Milne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 19:17:09 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 15:17:09 -0400 Subject: HispaLinux files complaint about UEFI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130328191709.GA29196@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 05:04:07PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/77645.html > > I suspect our own "POG" group might find it interesting to take a peek > at this to see if there is any local applicability. It's possible > that there's nothing apropos to do in Canada, but I couldn't evaluate > that one way or another. I have UEFI bios in my Asus AMD board. I have no problem booting Linux. Or, is "Secure Boot" a different animal? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 20:55:17 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 16:55:17 -0400 Subject: HispaLinux files complaint about UEFI In-Reply-To: <20130328191709.GA29196-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130328191709.GA29196@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <5154AE35.50903@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 05:04:07PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: >> http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/77645.html >> >> I suspect our own "POG" group might find it interesting to take a peek >> at this to see if there is any local applicability. It's possible >> that there's nothing apropos to do in Canada, but I couldn't evaluate >> that one way or another. > I have UEFI bios in my Asus AMD board. I have no problem booting Linux. > Or, is "Secure Boot" a different animal? It's a different animal. UEFI replaces the BIOS for booting. Secure Boot is supposedly a means of ensuring booting a trusted OS, though it's beyond me how that would apply to Windows 8. It is also controlled by MS, so one might suspect it's an attempt to keep other than Windows from booting. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 21:10:47 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:10:47 -0400 Subject: HispaLinux files complaint about UEFI In-Reply-To: <20130328191709.GA29196-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130328191709.GA29196@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130328211047.GE21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 03:17:09PM -0400, William Park wrote: > I have UEFI bios in my Asus AMD board. I have no problem booting Linux. > Or, is "Secure Boot" a different animal? Secureboot is an optional feature of UEFI 2.3.1 and higher. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Mar 28 21:24:19 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:24:19 -0400 Subject: Linux Foundation Training Prepares the International Space Station for Linux Migration | Linux.com In-Reply-To: References: <51546A75.5040603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20130328212419.GF21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 12:47:34PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: James Knott > > | https://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/191-linux-training/711318-linux-foundation-training-prepares-the-international-space-station-for-linux-migration > > Thanks. Interesting. > > First part read like an add for the Linux Foundation Training Staff. > I guess it is. > > Didn't really explain why Linux is replacing Windows. > > Later parts were a bit confusing. What is Debian 6? Why would moving > from Scientific Linux (which release?) to Debian 6 provide more robust > enterprise support? > > What is Robonaut? How could a humanoid robot make any sense on ISS? > Seems like a crazy skeuomorphic idea. Debian 6 is the current stable release of debian. AKA squeeze. Scientific linux seems to be a recompiled RHEL (just like centos). RHEL makes debian like amazingly modern, so if they want something more current than RHEL, it makes sense to go with Debian. A lot more software is packaged for Debian too, which may be handy for them. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From s at sadiqs.com Thu Mar 28 23:08:24 2013 From: s at sadiqs.com (Sadiq Saif) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 19:08:24 -0400 Subject: Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1364512104.7625.140661210530865.451EDBCD@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013, at 13:21, Thomas Milne wrote: > Looks like this may have been overblown somewhat, for the usual reason: > greed. > > http://gizmodo.com/5992652/that-internet-war-apocalypse-is-a-lie > > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Thomas Milne > wrote: > > > One curious line in this story says that the attack was partly enabled by > > "open DNS", which it says are "known to be insecure". > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus > > > > http://gu.com/p/3emqz > > > > > > -- > Thomas Milne Plain text version - http://cluepon.net/ras/gizmodo -- Sadiq Saif -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 29 18:30:11 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 14:30:11 -0400 Subject: Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus In-Reply-To: <20130328143925.GC21770-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130328143925.GC21770@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130329183011.GA3962@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:39:25AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 08:59:37AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > > One curious line in this story says that the attack was partly enabled by > > "open DNS", which it says are "known to be insecure". > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Internet slows down after DNS attack on Spamhaus > > > > http://gu.com/p/3emqz > > Plain old DNS is insecure. This is part of why DNSSEC is being pushed, > but not very many places are using it. Without egress filtering, will even DNSSEC stop these attacks? Or are we talking TCP 3-way handshakes for DNS? -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Mar 29 19:47:25 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:47:25 -0400 Subject: Current Dells and UEFI/secureboot? Message-ID: <20130329194725.GB3962@waltdnes.org> I don't want to hi-jack the Hispalinux thread, so I'm starting a separate one. How are current Dells regarding UEFI/secureboot? Is it simply a matter of toggling an option in the BIOS setup to get "legacy boot"? The reason I'm asking is that I have 2 Dell desktops ("production" and "hot backup") that are pushing 5 or 6 years of age, and I need to replace at least one. They simply can't keep up with HD video streams... * it could keep up with Youtube 480p videos fullscreen under Teksavvy's 5 megabit service. The stream was the limit. * after the speed was bumped up, it could keep up with Youtube 720p videos fullscreen under Teksavvy's 6 megabit service. The stream was the limit. The download still couldn't keep up with 1080p videos. * This week, I moved from "legacy 6 GAS" to "FTTN 7". Unlike GAS, FTTN speeds are net, not gross. So my Speedtest.net results jumped from approx 5.1-5.2 megabits to 7.1-7.2 megabits, and it can keep up with 1080p streams. * The "newer", more powerful, machine can play 1080p Youtube videos under Firefox in the "large player", but the load is pegged at between 2.5 and 3. For a 2-core machine, that's bad. The leaner Midori can play the same video with a load between 1.7 and 2.1, which is pushing it. Going to fullscreen, it stutters noticably under Firefox. Midori can just barely keep up in fullscreen mode. * The machine can play NHL GameCenter Live at the slowest stream (400 kbits/sec). It doesn't even show the other options (800, 1600, and 3000) The 1080p video was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US3Px2sePWk Note that you have to manually select 1080p. The "fmt=" option doesn't seem to work anymore. The onboard Intel GPU is not the problem; it's the CPU trying to keep up with Flash. And before anyone asks... * I'm running Gentoo with full optimizations * I'm running ICEWM with no "desktop environment"; see my sig So I don't think there are any more optimizations to be had, other than a new PC. Assuming there are no showstoppers, I'll be buying another Dell. They seem to last for me. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 30 01:20:16 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 21:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Current Dells and UEFI/secureboot? In-Reply-To: <20130329194725.GB3962-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130329194725.GB3962@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | The onboard Intel GPU is not the problem; it's the CPU trying to keep | up with Flash. And before anyone asks... | * I'm running Gentoo with full optimizations | * I'm running ICEWM with no "desktop environment"; see my sig | So I don't think there are any more optimizations to be had, other than | a new PC. Assuming there are no showstoppers, I'll be buying another | Dell. They seem to last for me. Flash is evil. I don't use Flash, so this is from googling. Adobe seems to have stopped supporting hardware acceleration on Linux. "* On Linux, hardware acceleration is only supported in Google Chrome." They used to support the proprietary nVidia driver's VDPAU. Perhaps if you use the Chrome browser you can keep your old machines. But I don't know if your GPU is supported by Chrome's Flash. Or switch to an old Flash (danger! danger!). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 30 03:02:54 2013 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 23:02:54 -0400 Subject: ad-hoc connection on my nexus 10? Message-ID: Hey folks, I have a google nexus 10 table,t which is in many ways kinda cool, but is by farthe worst distro to work with I've ever encountered. I'm taking a long car trip with my son and one of his friends. They would liketo play minecraft together on their tablets, and in order to do so the tablets need to be able to communicate with each other. But neither tablet is set up to create an ad-hoc network (the friend's is an ipad, so I don't know what to do with that). Anyway, two possible solutions -- if I could get advice on either of htem, that'd be great. 1) PREFERRED -- get the android tablet to set up its own ad-hoc network. I guess because there is no G3 wireless, google thought it wasn't necessary to include a GUI method to do this. But a command-line system would work fine for me as I have a terminal emulator. amny thoughts? 2) get the stupid google tablet to SEE an ad-hoc network when I create one on my laptop. This is less parsimonious and also requires me to use up the battery on my laptop, which I'm not crazy about, but still it would be better than nothing. But the tablet just doesn't see my network when I set it up!! I'm so frustrated! Anyway, if anyone has suggestions for either case, please let me know. Thanks folks!@ matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 30 03:50:16 2013 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 23:50:16 -0400 Subject: ad-hoc connection on my nexus 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515660F8.2060003@gmail.com> On 29-03-13 23:02 , Matt Price wrote: > Anyway, if anyone has suggestions for either case, please let me know. There's also a case 3: enable Personal Hotspot on the friend's iPad, and connect to the Nexus through that. I use that all the time to get G3 on my Nexus 7. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Mar 30 06:29:05 2013 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 02:29:05 -0400 Subject: ad-hoc connection on my nexus 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51568631.3090809@ss.org> On 03/29/2013 11:02 PM, Matt Price wrote: > Hey folks, > > I have a google nexus 10 table,t which is in many ways kinda cool, but > is by farthe worst distro to work with I've ever encountered. > > > I'm taking a long car trip with my son and one of his friends. They > would liketo play minecraft together on their tablets, and in order to > do so the tablets need to be able to communicate with each other. But > neither tablet is set up to create an ad-hoc network (the friend's is > an ipad, so I don't know what to do with that). Anyway, two possible > solutions -- if I could get advice on either of htem, that'd be great. So, not answering your direct question I do have some experience to share about your end goal. You mentioned that both kids are playing on their Tablets, this means they are using Minecraft Pocket Edition. I've not played with the pocket edition, but I know with the full version you need Internet access in order to verify your player account. If this is also true for the pocket edition, then they may not be able to play together. The reason I say this is because of an experience I had while doing the same thing with a bunch of laptops while at a Con. I had my Nexus 4 setup as a hotspot and my laptop running the server using the "Share with LAN" feature. Because I started my client before setting up the wifi access point, I was playing in offline mode with the "Player" user instead of my registered player account. When the other folks got onto the wifi, the couldn't connect because they had also started their clients in offline mode and we're trying to connect to my "Shared to Lan" server with the same username as I had, ie "Player". In my case they could easily restart their clients with the now available internet from my phone, and it was then a non-issue. If your in a non-internet situation, you may run into the same issue. If this is not an issue for the Pocket Edition, consider spending the $40 on a TP-Link TL-MR3020 to act as the AP. That way their not dependent on your tablet or laptop. http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/tp-link-portable-3g375g-wireless-n-router-tl-mr3020/10066020 (Wanted to give the Canada Computers Link, but their website was non-responsive at this time). Also, very well supported by OpenWRT. http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/tl-mr3020 Makes for great project fodder or a PirateBox. http://daviddarts.com/piratebox-diy-openwrt Also, finer point on terminology. Most Cellphone or Tablet hot-spot my be "ad-hoc" from a logistical perspective, the are not in fact "ad-hoc" in relation to the 802.11 terminology. "ad-hoc" in the later case refers to a mode in which wifi devices run with out a managing wifi device, aka an access point. In the former case of cells and tabs, they are running as a proper managing access point. Fedora recently introduced work to use proper AP based hot-spots where ever it's support by the hardware. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RealHotspot#Detailed_Description -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 06:40:44 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 23:40:44 -0700 Subject: High-res IPS L[EC]D monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone ever try monitors from mono? http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10325&cs_id=1130704 The big ones are pricey but they've all got >1080p resolution. I'm not familiar with the Crystalpro but the one review I found basically says low price, less features (compared to Mac IPS) but picture-quality is quite good. http://www.macworld.com/article/2027182/review-crystalpro-monitor-has-a-hard-to-beat-price.html Not too big on the 5 dead-pixel min 1 year warranty. Decent price though I know the general lack of >1080 has come up before so.... thoughts? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 15:08:07 2013 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 11:08:07 -0400 Subject: High-res IPS L[EC]D monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130331110807.62a0978184e7c5e75e3de902@eol.ca> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 23:40:44 -0700 Tyler Aviss wrote: > Anyone ever try monitors from mono? > > http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10325&cs_id=1130704 > > The big ones are pricey but they've all got >1080p resolution. I'm not > familiar with the Crystalpro but the one review I found basically says low > price, less features (compared to Mac IPS) but picture-quality is quite > good. > > http://www.macworld.com/article/2027182/review-crystalpro-monitor-has-a-hard-to-beat-price.html > > Not too big on the 5 dead-pixel min 1 year warranty. Decent price though > > I know the general lack of >1080 has come up before so.... thoughts? Tyler, What do you mean by a general lack of 1080? I have a cheap LCD TV, an Irico 32", and it does 1920x1080 pixels for everything except my laptop. When I got it, I plugged in the COAX cable from my Roger's box, and I got 480p on all channels. One day, I connected the Terk antenna for my radio, to it, and I discovered that CBC is 720p, and channels 19 and 57 are 1080i. The correct way to connect a Roger's box to an LCD TV is YPbPr. This is a batch of RCA cables. Then, you have to search through the channels for the high resolution stuff. The lower channels still are 480p. For example, channel 17 at Roger's 61 is 480p. Channel 17 at Roger's 525 is 1080i. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 20:34:01 2013 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (sciguy) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 16:34:01 -0400 Subject: Mint 14 with MATE: DVD not mounted Message-ID: <088d77e94116fd2806ced3de295119aa@mail.vex.net> Hello I have been scratching my head about this as it has happened on two machines with two separate installations of the same Mint 14 version (the latest stable version), 64-bit. If I stick in a blank DVD into the DVDROM drive, I immediately get the error "Cannot mount DVD: DVD already mounted." This would tell me that two processes are competing for the DVD. But if this were the case, then neither process succeeded in mounting the DVD at all. "mount" and "df" show no evidence of the drive being mounted. This has been tried with several DVD, and BD devices. Same error, each time. Did anyone else encounter this error, and if so, what was done about it? These are dual-boot machines, and all drives record perfectly under Windows 7. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 20:46:13 2013 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 16:46:13 -0400 Subject: Mint 14 with MATE: DVD not mounted In-Reply-To: <088d77e94116fd2806ced3de295119aa-41R2vWz+eC7k1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> References: <088d77e94116fd2806ced3de295119aa@mail.vex.net> Message-ID: what does dmesg say during this. . and also at boot up? may want to turn off auto mount also while examining the issue. USB of sata/ide dvd? .tl On Mar 31, 2013 4:34 PM, "sciguy" wrote: > Hello > > I have been scratching my head about this as it has happened on two > machines with two separate installations of the same Mint 14 version (the > latest stable version), 64-bit. > > If I stick in a blank DVD into the DVDROM drive, I immediately get the > error "Cannot mount DVD: DVD already mounted." > > This would tell me that two processes are competing for the DVD. But if > this were the case, then neither process succeeded in mounting the DVD at > all. "mount" and "df" show no evidence of the drive being mounted. This has > been tried with several DVD, and BD devices. Same error, each time. > > Did anyone else encounter this error, and if so, what was done about it? > > These are dual-boot machines, and all drives record perfectly under > Windows 7. > > Paul King > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 21:42:42 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mint 14 with MATE: DVD not mounted In-Reply-To: <088d77e94116fd2806ced3de295119aa-41R2vWz+eC7k1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> References: <088d77e94116fd2806ced3de295119aa@mail.vex.net> Message-ID: | From: sciguy | If I stick in a blank DVD into the DVDROM drive, I immediately get the error | "Cannot mount DVD: DVD already mounted." I don't think that a blank DVD can be mounted. Not in any conventional sense. There is no filesystem on it. Just try to use it (eg. as a destination for k3b burning). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 21:44:21 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: High-res IPS L[EC]D monitors In-Reply-To: <20130331110807.62a0978184e7c5e75e3de902-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130331110807.62a0978184e7c5e75e3de902@eol.ca> Message-ID: | From: Howard Gibson | Tyler Aviss wrote: | > I know the general lack of >1080 has come up before so.... thoughts? | What do you mean by a general lack of 1080? You missed one symbol ">" meaning "greater than". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 21:50:34 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: High-res IPS L[EC]D monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Tyler Aviss | Anyone ever try monitors from mono? | | http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10325&cs_id=1130704 Hardly anyone: they are new and get sold out quite often. Have a look at this Red Flag Deals threads. This thread show a cheaper/riskier alternative source for 27": 27" 2560x1440 seems to be substantially cheaper than 30" 2560x1600 Dell has 30" monitors on sale once in a while and 27" ones more often. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 21:52:18 2013 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:52:18 -0400 Subject: Mint 14 with MATE: DVD not mounted In-Reply-To: References: <088d77e94116fd2806ced3de295119aa@mail.vex.net> Message-ID: <5158B012.1010900@vex.net> On 13-03-31 05:42 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: sciguy > > | If I stick in a blank DVD into the DVDROM drive, I immediately get the error > | "Cannot mount DVD: DVD already mounted." > > I don't think that a blank DVD can be mounted. Not in any conventional > sense. There is no filesystem on it. > > Just try to use it (eg. as a destination for k3b burning). When I jut try to use it, Brasero (the burner that comes with Mint) detects the DVD, but disables all buttons except the cancel button. Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 22:13:25 2013 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 18:13:25 -0400 Subject: Mint 14 with MATE: DVD not mounted In-Reply-To: References: <088d77e94116fd2806ced3de295119aa@mail.vex.net> Message-ID: <5158B505.60308@vex.net> On 13-03-31 04:46 PM, ted leslie wrote: > > what does dmesg say during this. . and also at boot up? > may want to turn off auto mount also while examining the issue. > USB of sata/ide dvd? > .tl > > dmesg does not give any messages at all related to this; but an icon appears on my desktop. The icon is useless, since Brasero won't record on the device anyway (tried that). There are also no obvious kernel errors at boot-up, tied to either the DVD-RW device or the Blu-Ray-R/DVD-RW device (although it seems to be looking for a floppy drive that doesn't exist - fd0). All connections on this machine are SATA. It appears that just because the device icon is on my desktop, it doesn't mean necessarily that it is actually mounted -- sda, sdb, and sdc are my hard drive partitions, and there are no sdd or sde devices which would give evidence that the DVD is detected. As Hugh pointed out, this is all moot, since if the DVD is blank, there is no filesystem there to mount anyway, so the fact that there is no sdd or sde is correct behaviour for a disk with no fs on it. Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Mar 31 22:21:51 2013 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 18:21:51 -0400 Subject: Mint 14 with MATE: DVD not mounted In-Reply-To: <5158B505.60308-Ja3L+HSX0kI@public.gmane.org> References: <088d77e94116fd2806ced3de295119aa@mail.vex.net> <5158B505.60308@vex.net> Message-ID: <5158B6FF.1070406@vex.net> By the way, I have just noticed that there are actually 3 DVD icons now on my desktop for the same blank disk. Things just get stranger and stranger. The problem persists that I still have a blank DVD that I can't seem to record on. Paul On 13-03-31 06:13 PM, Paul King wrote: > On 13-03-31 04:46 PM, ted leslie wrote: >> >> what does dmesg say during this. . and also at boot up? >> may want to turn off auto mount also while examining the issue. >> USB of sata/ide dvd? >> .tl >> >> > dmesg does not give any messages at all related to this; but an icon > appears on my desktop. The icon is useless, since Brasero won't record > on the device anyway (tried that). There are also no obvious kernel > errors at boot-up, tied to either the DVD-RW device or the > Blu-Ray-R/DVD-RW device (although it seems to be looking for a floppy > drive that doesn't exist - fd0). All connections on this machine are > SATA. > > It appears that just because the device icon is on my desktop, it > doesn't mean necessarily that it is actually mounted -- sda, sdb, and > sdc are my hard drive partitions, and there are no sdd or sde devices > which would give evidence that the DVD is detected. > > As Hugh pointed out, this is all moot, since if the DVD is blank, > there is no filesystem there to mount anyway, so the fact that there > is no sdd or sde is correct behaviour for a disk with no fs on it. > > Paul > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists