From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 1 03:26:03 2013 From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 22:26:03 -0500 Subject: Little Linux Box Bits... Message-ID: <20130201032603.261860@gmx.com> Whoa, that's getting inappropriate, it's not like it ties in with the whole gaming topic, is it even a common type of naiveness that naggs for reactions? Maybe it's influenced by target audience issues as well as the time it's from? On the other hand, the addictiveness issue actually would, in theory, apply backwards with the LAN party situation, whatwith potentially encouraging people who don't get out much or who intentionally avoid exposing such a habit to interact with others in meatspace. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lennart Sorensen > Sent: 01/31/13 10:51 AM > On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 07:19:43PM -0500, Molly Tournquist wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Colin McGregor > > > Sent: 01/26/13 04:04 PM > > > > > > My take on "Quake III" the game "Open Arena" is based on can be seen > > > here : ftp://ftp.linuxjournal.com/pub/tux/tux017.pdf . > > > > > > > > > > >...way of coping with stress > > There's a worrying bias, shoving under the rug that potential for spinning escapism by writing it off as a neat, cut and dry pressure valve. Escapism as one negative side among many potential big contexts, gaming has become a humongous thing. > > > > Sorry about however you were pushed into weaving in that slant. > > I think the sudo advice is just insane. Add all user to sudo with > permission to do everything? Why would someone recommend such a thing? > Terrible advice. > -- > Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 1 14:42:11 2013 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 09:42:11 -0500 Subject: Unix permission coexistence with posix acl In-Reply-To: <20130131153551.GW1769-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130131153551.GW1769@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: > > setgid on a directory forced anything created to inherit the group. > There is no way to do the same for owner of the file. Whoever creates > it, owns it. FreeBSD allows setuid on directories to do the same thing > to owner of the file, but linux and other unix systems do not. Thank Len. Understand now. How does FreeBSD achieve the purpose that Linux use setuid for? Running binaries like passwd for example? Just got curious. > There is no 'default user' concept in posix acl or unix acl (except > on freebsd). > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 1 14:47:54 2013 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 14:47:54 +0000 Subject: Unix permission coexistence with posix acl In-Reply-To: References: <20130131153551.GW1769@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 2:42 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > >> >> setgid on a directory forced anything created to inherit the group. >> There is no way to do the same for owner of the file. Whoever creates >> it, owns it. FreeBSD allows setuid on directories to do the same thing >> to owner of the file, but linux and other unix systems do not. > > Thank Len. Understand now. How does FreeBSD achieve the purpose that Linux > use setuid for? Running binaries like passwd for example? > > Just got curious. > >> There is no 'default user' concept in posix acl or unix acl (except >> on freebsd). FreeBSD has setuid for files too, just like Linux. What Len is saying is that in FreeBSD, you can setuid a directory and all files created in that directory will have the owner of the directory, not the owner of the process creating the file. Note that the setuid bit would not be inherited as that would be a huge security hole. :) Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 1 15:20:44 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 10:20:44 -0500 Subject: Unix permission coexistence with posix acl In-Reply-To: References: <20130131153551.GW1769@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130201152044.GA1769@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 09:42:11AM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > > > > setgid on a directory forced anything created to inherit the group. > > There is no way to do the same for owner of the file. Whoever creates > > it, owns it. FreeBSD allows setuid on directories to do the same thing > > to owner of the file, but linux and other unix systems do not. > > Thank Len. Understand now. How does FreeBSD achieve the purpose that Linux > use setuid for? Running binaries like passwd for example? The only difference is that UNIX and Linux ignore setuid on directories. FreeBSD uses it on directories to control inheriting the owner on new files. On files they all use setuid the same way (to control what user the process runs as). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 1 15:21:39 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 10:21:39 -0500 Subject: Unix permission coexistence with posix acl In-Reply-To: References: <20130131153551.GW1769@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130201152139.GB1769@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 01, 2013 at 02:47:54PM +0000, Ben Walton wrote: > FreeBSD has setuid for files too, just like Linux. What Len is saying > is that in FreeBSD, you can setuid a directory and all files created > in that directory will have the owner of the directory, not the owner > of the process creating the file. > > Note that the setuid bit would not be inherited as that would be a > huge security hole. :) That would be scary. Of course setgid is not inherited either as that would be a only slightly less huge security hole. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 1 15:43:26 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:43:26 -0500 Subject: China, GitHub, and the Man In The Middle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <510BE29E.5080208@utoronto.ca> On 13-01-30 03:32 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > A *very* interesting article that points to how the increasing use of > HTTPS makes it rather a lot more difficult for would-be interfering > intermediaries such as the Chinese government. > https://en.greatfire.org/blog/2013/jan/china-github-and-man-middle > > That GitHub uses HTTPS means that, to control their peoples' access to > GitHub, the choices are: > > a) Block GitHub altogether, > b) Give up, or > c) Try to insinuate a certificate into place so as to be Man In The Middle. > > None of these are particularly palatable, acceptable, or usable. c) is very much usable. Many of Fortigate's appliances are built on that model of SSL MITM. BES (blackberry) lets you control certificates as well. If you're working on a corporate network, assume your HTTPS traffic *is* being monitored. I'd say in fact that C is the easiest to pull off as you move up in network scale because it becomes more transparent. Especially with the weaknesses in the trust model, what with all the compromises to CAs in the last year or two.. Do you check all the root CAs installed on your systems? What about the ones Mozilla bundles separately? I agree that option C is neither palatable or acceptable to me as someone who is fortunate/privileged enough to not have to work within or run a corporate network. Ja,pm -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 1 17:00:43 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:00:43 -0500 Subject: Little Linux Box Bits... In-Reply-To: <20130201032603.261860-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org> References: <20130201032603.261860@gmx.com> Message-ID: <510BF4BB.9090506@utoronto.ca> On 13-01-31 10:26 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: > Whoa, that's getting inappropriate, it's not like it ties in with the whole gaming topic, is it even a common type of naiveness that naggs for reactions? Maybe it's influenced by target audience issues as well as the time it's from? No the sudo portion of the article is very much problematic (if that's what this comment is discussing). Spending a few minutes looking at how the engine and runtime use environment variables would allow installing the game in a location like $HOME/bin/foo and using that on one's path for example. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 2 17:53:02 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 12:53:02 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130131025918.261850-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org> References: <20130131025918.261850@gmx.com> Message-ID: <510D527E.2050004@ve3syb.ca> On 13-01-30 09:59 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: > Don't get me wrong, it's not at all unexpected that rapberry pis will > be used MOSTLY for gaming, but what seems fitting is something > stranger and specialized. Why do say it will be used mostly for gaming? By "will be" you are referring to the future when it is being used more in schools? I would be suprirsed if most of the people that have bought them so far plan to use them for gaming. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From s at sadiqs.com Sat Feb 2 20:39:23 2013 From: s at sadiqs.com (Sadiq Saif) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:39:23 -0500 Subject: OCLUG June Kernel Walkthrough Message-ID: <1359837563.13986.140661186002053.0D8B4CAF@webmail.messagingengine.com> Something I just found posted on reddit, from the Ottawa LUG, very interesting. http://excess.org/article/2008/07/oclug-june-kernel-walkthrough/ A bit old, but still relevant I suppose. -- Sadiq Saif -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 3 00:39:27 2013 From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 19:39:27 -0500 Subject: Little Linux Box Bits... Message-ID: <20130203003927.261860@gmx.com> Okay, but look at the context of the magizine, there's a review of a the nonpay version of linspire, which had you running as root all the time. There's a big review of pingus back when it was nothing but tutorial levels, there's expectations for linux to have a full smorgasboard of gaming and for linux users to be purchassing an amount of games "acceptable enough" for the industry. But there's a need to jump over that kind of head spinning groupthink firmly onto such a discrete oversight? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jamon Camisso > Sent: 02/01/13 12:00 PM > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Little Linux Box Bits... > > On 13-01-31 10:26 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: > > Whoa, that's getting inappropriate, it's not like it ties in with the whole gaming topic, is it even a common type of naiveness that naggs for reactions? Maybe it's influenced by target audience issues as well as the time it's from? > > No the sudo portion of the article is very much problematic (if that's > what this comment is discussing). > > Spending a few minutes looking at how the engine and runtime use > environment variables would allow installing the game in a location like > $HOME/bin/foo and using that on one's path for example. > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 3 00:46:38 2013 From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 19:46:38 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... Message-ID: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> Either in schools or outside. Schools are circusses anyway. Of course not by the early adopters. But regarding the LAN gaming prospects... I'd expect a big preference for one of the linux community's significantly more own FPSs, like Sauerbraten in particular or maybe Xonotic, though those are a tiny bit hardware hungry. There's also a few based on the quake 3 engine. But, to be very blunt, the core hassles are lugging in a monitor and keyboard for each player, but more importantly the monitors are also the majority of the component cost and also the most fragile. (space issues aside) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Cozens > Sent: 02/02/13 12:53 PM > On 13-01-30 09:59 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: > > Don't get me wrong, it's not at all unexpected that rapberry pis will > > be used MOSTLY for gaming, but what seems fitting is something > > stranger and specialized. > > Why do say it will be used mostly for gaming? By "will be" you are > referring to the future when it is being used more in schools? I would > be suprirsed if most of the people that have bought them so far plan to > use them for gaming. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 3 02:33:04 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 21:33:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130203004639.261850-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> Message-ID: | From: Molly Tournquist | Either in schools or outside. Schools are circusses anyway. Of course | not by the early adopters. I take it you are trying to be a bit controversial/confrontational (without being wrong, just blunt). Of course this is a little broken except in response to an earlier message. It would be a lot clearer if you didn't top-post. | But regarding the LAN gaming prospects... | But, to be very blunt, the core hassles are lugging in a monitor and | keyboard for each player, but more importantly the monitors are also the | majority of the component cost and also the most fragile. (space issues | aside) There are always a million reasons for not doing something. So don't do it. Maybe Collin and a few others are willing to put the effort in to have a different experience. Me? I'm lazy as a log. There are a million things that I said made no sense to me but still got done. There is some fun in playing with toys. In this case, I mean undersized things that still manage to do cute stuff. The Raspberry Pis is such a qualifies. I've already given away three for that reason. Not, not to help the recipients in school (two already have PhDs). I have to admit that I'm not a gamer. The only game I got hooked on was Captain Beeble for the Atari 8-bit computers (not the VCS). Odd fact: that Atari 600xl cost me about the same as the Raspberry Pi. It required a TV set too. But maybe it isn't odd since the Raspberry Pi designers were trying to capture the fun of their youth on a similar computer of a similar vintage, the BBC Micro. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 3 09:35:05 2013 From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 04:35:05 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... Message-ID: <20130203093506.261860@gmx.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: D. Hugh Redelmeier > Sent: 02/02/13 09:33 PM > | From: Molly Tournquist > > | Either in schools or outside. Schools are circusses anyway. Of course > | not by the early adopters. Well, they are inanely uptight and they are chaotic. I think that roughly adds up to that. > | But, to be very blunt, the core hassles are lugging in a monitor and > | keyboard for each player, but more importantly the monitors are also the > | majority of the component cost and also the most fragile. (space issues > | aside) > > There are always a million reasons for not doing something. So don't > do it. Maybe Collin and a few others are willing to put the effort in > to have a different experience. But ... sticking to standard Quake is *not* really a blueprint for a diferrent experience. Perhaps neither is sticking with keyboards for that matter, and I forgot all about those small left hand portion keyboardy things. Well, yeah, there *are* indeed reassons why the majority of the time it's done differently with consoles. I'm not saying it's unavoidable to do it mostly like with consoles, I was just pointing out specific difficulties with strictly PC traditionned gaming meetups. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 02:02:53 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 21:02:53 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? Message-ID: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> My old netbook appears to be dying, with spontaneous freezes, taking multiple attempts to reboot, etc. I like the netbook form-factor, but not the crippled hardware. For potential replacements, I'm looking at 1) An ASUS machine (AMD) http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=046492 2) An Acer machine (Intel with HM77 Express chipset) www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=054900 Any linux compatability gotcha's? The Intel video driver appears to be open source http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel_hd4000_linux37&num=1 but the AMD appears to be proprietary. The Intel has twice the ram and a larger hard drive. Any comments/experiences? -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 02:07:50 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 21:07:50 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204020253.GA26926-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <510F17F6.4090600@rogers.com> Walter Dnes wrote: > My old netbook appears to be dying, with spontaneous freezes, taking > multiple attempts to reboot, etc. I like the netbook form-factor, but > not the crippled hardware. For potential replacements, I'm looking at A little over a year ago, I bought a Lenovo Thinkpad E520. Works well with Linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 02:11:41 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 18:11:41 -0800 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204020253.GA26926-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: What's in the logs? Maybe you just need a RAM or HDD replacement. for laptops/netbooks, I'm fairly happy with Asus. You might want to check the U.S. Costco site as they often get superior models/prices, and laptops have no duty (you'd still need to pick one up or use border-shipper, but I still saved $300+ even after all that with my last purchase). On Feb 3, 2013 6:04 PM, "Walter Dnes" wrote: > My old netbook appears to be dying, with spontaneous freezes, taking > multiple attempts to reboot, etc. I like the netbook form-factor, but > not the crippled hardware. For potential replacements, I'm looking at > > 1) An ASUS machine (AMD) > > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=046492 > > 2) An Acer machine (Intel with HM77 Express chipset) > www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=054900 > > Any linux compatability gotcha's? The Intel video driver appears to > be open source > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel_hd4000_linux37&num=1 > but the AMD appears to be proprietary. The Intel has twice the ram and > a larger hard drive. Any comments/experiences? > > -- > Walter Dnes > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 06:05:02 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 01:05:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204020253.GA26926-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | My old netbook appears to be dying, with spontaneous freezes, taking | multiple attempts to reboot, etc. I like the netbook form-factor, but | not the crippled hardware. As Tyler said, the problem may be fixable. The longer you put off a purchase, the better the purchase will be. Except: netbooks are dying. They are not being made any longer. So: maybe you can get a deal NOW, as they are being cleared. | For potential replacements, I'm looking at | | 1) An ASUS machine (AMD) | http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=046492 This is a netbook. It would hope that you could find a less expensive one. This isn't much better than an Acer Aspire One 522 that I bought a year or two ago for $229, new. It is a bit better: - C50 vs E450 processor (perhaps 50% faster, but same chip) - 1280x720 vs 1366x768 screen (note: Win8 supports 768 but noto 720!) - 10" vs 11.6" screen (I prefer smaller) - nasty keys vs possibly OK keys - USB2.0 only vs some USB3.0 | 2) An Acer machine (Intel with HM77 Express chipset) | www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=054900 Nicer machine, almost 50% higher price. Creeping into Ultrabook price range. I suspect Ultrabooks have been a bit of a market failure so we might see some discounting. If you like netbooks, Ultrabooks are even better except for the ridiculous prices. I kind of like the idea of a touchscreen, if it is cheap enough. You may not use it, but you might. I know that I didn't use my Thinkpad x61t's stylus much. This seems similar but with touch screen. Slightly inferior CPU. Half the RAM -- I'd see if that can be fixed before I'd buy it: Note: I didn't look hard for this. It is not a Hugh Certified Deal:-) | Any linux compatability gotcha's? The Intel video driver appears to | be open source http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel_hd4000_linux37&num=1 | but the AMD appears to be proprietary. The Intel has twice the ram and | a larger hard drive. Any comments/experiences? These AMD chips have been around for quite a while. The kinks have mostly been worked out. One annoying one was AMD didn't release specs for how a driver could enable sound over HDMI. Intel has been really good about video driver support (although there have been bugs early in KMS). All notebooks have kinks. Most are surviveable. An exception: see earlier posting about how Linux bricks Samsung notebooks using UEFI. Turns out that (mostly) Samsung is to blame. AMD chips are just not as good as Intel chips at the moment. AMD has not been able to catch up. They seem to have missed a generation. The good news is that they discount them to reflect this. The Brazos chips are better than Atom chips, but they do burn more power. If you really want to be daring, go for the $250 Samsung Chromebook. Not much "disk" space. A bit of hacking to get Ubuntu or Fedora on it. But cheap and light and solid state. Not available in Canada for some reason: This Arm-based device has reasonable processing power. Not up to level of the other machines we've mentioned. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 06:20:22 2013 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 01:20:22 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204020253.GA26926-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: Hi > > 1) An ASUS machine (AMD) > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=046492 > I own the above netbook and run Ubuntu 12.04 on it. Everything run fine. Use it mainly to respond to nagios calls but would be fine as my main laptop as I don't game. Only problem I had with it was it has issues hibernating. There is a work around and its possible they actually fix the problem. Will check tomorrow. It do struggle playing music too... music videos. That's in full screen mode. I bet most netbook has this issue. I opted for it as it was better than most atom based netbook without being too expensive. If a netbook is more than 500 dollars, I would start thinking of a laptop. That's all the beef I have with it. > 2) An Acer machine (Intel with HM77 Express chipset) > www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=054900 > > Any linux compatability gotcha's? The Intel video driver appears to > be open source http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel_hd4000_linux37&num=1 > but the AMD appears to be proprietary. The Intel has twice the ram and > a larger hard drive. Any comments/experiences? > AMD does work with open source driver but do agree Intel offer better support. > -- > Walter Dnes > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 07:32:24 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 02:32:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | Except: netbooks are dying. They are not being made any longer. | So: maybe you can get a deal NOW, as they are being cleared. Interesting, colourful, opinion piece. As usual, the author thinks his use case is the important one. I do that too. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 14:58:40 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 09:58:40 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20130204145840.GA28537@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 01:05:02AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote > | From: Walter Dnes > | For potential replacements, I'm looking at > | > | 1) An ASUS machine (AMD) > | http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=046492 > > This is a netbook. It would hope that you could find a less expensive > one. This isn't much better than an Acer Aspire One 522 that I bought > a year or two ago for $229, new. When I say "netbook", I mean the crippled versions specified by MS and Intel; e.g. stuff like a max of 2 gigs of ram. My old netbook has an "embedded" version Atom that does 32-bit only! Even so, it could've easily addressed 3 gigs of ram. If you mean to say this is what netbooks should have been like, then that's a different matter. I'll try to check a local shop where I bought my "Home Theatre" PC from. The websites I've found are pushing either clearout crippled netbooks or highend ultrabooks, and nothing in between. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 17:23:46 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 12:23:46 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130203004639.261850-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> Message-ID: <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> On 13-02-02 07:46 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: > But, to be very blunt, the core hassles are lugging in a monitor and > keyboard for each player, but more importantly the monitors are also > the majority of the component cost and also the most fragile. Lugging around a monitor and keyboard is the same hassle one would have with any LAN party. The main difference being is that a Pi is a much easier to deal with than lugging around a computer in a tower case. Using a monitor from a car backup camera system, and a mini wireless keyboard with built-in mouse pad means an entire computer system can fit in a small back or backpack. I have seen these monitors avaialable in 3.5", 4.3", and 7". The caveat is that the resolution is very low. About 480x234 on all of them (even on the 7"). You wouldn't want to be reading a lot of text on a screen that small but it would be ok for some graphics based programs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 17:42:58 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <510FEEA2.40403-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 13-02-02 07:46 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: >> >> But, to be very blunt, the core hassles are lugging in a monitor and >> keyboard for each player, but more importantly the monitors are also >> the majority of the component cost and also the most fragile. > > > Lugging around a monitor and keyboard is the same hassle one would have with > any LAN party. The main difference being is that a Pi is a much easier to > deal with than lugging around a computer in a tower case. > > Using a monitor from a car backup camera system, and a mini wireless > keyboard with built-in mouse pad means an entire computer system can fit in > a small back or backpack. I have seen these monitors avaialable in 3.5", > 4.3", and 7". The caveat is that the resolution is very low. About 480x234 > on all of them (even on the 7"). You wouldn't want to be reading a lot of > text on a screen that small but it would be ok for some graphics based > programs. I'd love to get in on some Pi LAN gaming, but free-time is as elusive as ever. :-( That said, I'm hoping to grab one of these as a dedicated Pi display. -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 18:30:35 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 13:30:35 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> On 13-02-04 12:42 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > That said, I'm hoping to grab one of these > as a dedicated Pi display. That is a much better resolution for a 7" display than the resolution in the car backup system monitors. The only downside is the price. You could buy a 23" LCD monitor from Best Buy for the same amount of money. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 18:58:46 2013 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:58:46 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <510FEEA2.40403-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 13-02-02 07:46 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: >> >> But, to be very blunt, the core hassles are lugging in a monitor and >> keyboard for each player, but more importantly the monitors are also >> the majority of the component cost and also the most fragile. > > Lugging around a monitor and keyboard is the same hassle one would have with > any LAN party. The main difference being is that a Pi is a much easier to > deal with than lugging around a computer in a tower case. Yes. Also, it largely gets us away from people saying things like "The only reason she won is because she had a $2,000 video card in her computer!" type comments (okay, I see Canada Computers is offering $149.99 gaming mouse (seriously : http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_273_275&item_id=032880)). But by keeping the compute platform the same we can LARGELY (not completely) level the playing field. Obviously there would be some small advantages to be gained via special peripherals (gaming mice, etc), and some small advantages via OS tweaks, but largely we would be looking at win/loose based on tactics (camping in one area vs. say keeping mobile) and reflexes. > Using a monitor from a car backup camera system, and a mini wireless > keyboard with built-in mouse pad means an entire computer system can fit in > a small back or backpack. I have seen these monitors avaialable in 3.5", > 4.3", and 7". The caveat is that the resolution is very low. About 480x234 > on all of them (even on the 7"). You wouldn't want to be reading a lot of > text on a screen that small but it would be ok for some graphics based > programs. Even 15" or 17" LCD screens are not that hard to transport for most people. For a game where (due to the hardware limitations) you do NOT want to run at the software's maximum potential resolution, a 15" screen would be just fine. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 19:08:20 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 14:08:20 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20130204190820.GA30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 01:58:46PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > Yes. Also, it largely gets us away from people saying things like "The > only reason she won is because she had a $2,000 video card in her > computer!" type comments (okay, I see Canada Computers is offering > $149.99 gaming mouse (seriously : > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_273_275&item_id=032880)). > But by keeping the compute platform the same we can LARGELY (not > completely) level the playing field. Obviously there would be some > small advantages to be gained via special peripherals (gaming mice, > etc), and some small advantages via OS tweaks, but largely we would be > looking at win/loose based on tactics (camping in one area vs. say > keeping mobile) and reflexes. I think many lan parties have limits on power comsumption per user which certainly rule out a lot of the insane machines. > Even 15" or 17" LCD screens are not that hard to transport for most > people. For a game where (due to the hardware limitations) you do NOT > want to run at the software's maximum potential resolution, a 15" > screen would be just fine. 21" CRTs were hard to transport. :) A 24" LCD is not really hard to transport. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 19:12:54 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 14:12:54 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204020253.GA26926-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20130204191254.GB30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Feb 03, 2013 at 09:02:53PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > My old netbook appears to be dying, with spontaneous freezes, taking > multiple attempts to reboot, etc. I like the netbook form-factor, but > not the crippled hardware. For potential replacements, I'm looking at > > 1) An ASUS machine (AMD) > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=046492 > > 2) An Acer machine (Intel with HM77 Express chipset) > www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=054900 > > Any linux compatability gotcha's? The Intel video driver appears to > be open source http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel_hd4000_linux37&num=1 > but the AMD appears to be proprietary. The Intel has twice the ram and > a larger hard drive. Any comments/experiences? I would certainly avoid ATI/AMD video chips for linux use. Intel is generally not a problem (with the poulsbo exception for recent issues). Wifi can still be a hassle, although if you get intel wifi it generally just works. That's why my laptops are custom ordered thinkpads. My current one is a thinkpad W530. It does have nvidia and intel graphics and hence the optimus issues, but it works with the intel drives and at some point I will play with bumblebee to enable the switching between the two video chips. The intel 6300 wifi works very well. The intel 1000 in my wife's ideapad Y470 also works perfectly fine in linux. I don't buy Acer stuff because their purpose for existing is to make cheap stuff. Asus and Lenovo are the two brands I would buy for laptops as they are among the best in reliability out there. I tend to go for the lenovo option because I can actually customize what I get in my machine and pick the most linux compatible parts that way. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 19:29:57 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 14:29:57 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204020253.GA26926-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20130204192956.GA20893@node1.opengeometry.net> Avoid HP. Lenovo, Samsung, Asus have good rumours. Dell is gamble. From personal circle, Dell has 50% failure within 2 years. -- William On Sun, Feb 03, 2013 at 09:02:53PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > My old netbook appears to be dying, with spontaneous freezes, taking > multiple attempts to reboot, etc. I like the netbook form-factor, but > not the crippled hardware. For potential replacements, I'm looking at > > 1) An ASUS machine (AMD) > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=046492 > > 2) An Acer machine (Intel with HM77 Express chipset) > www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=054900 > > Any linux compatability gotcha's? The Intel video driver appears to > be open source http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel_hd4000_linux37&num=1 > but the AMD appears to be proprietary. The Intel has twice the ram and > a larger hard drive. Any comments/experiences? > > -- > Walter Dnes > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 19:53:34 2013 From: sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Steve Harvey) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 14:53:34 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204191254.GB30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204191254.GB30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130204195334.GK13571@vex.net> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 02:12:54PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > I don't buy Acer stuff because their purpose for existing is to make > cheap stuff. Asus and Lenovo are the two brands I would buy for laptops > as they are among the best in reliability out there. I tend to go for > the lenovo option because I can actually customize what I get in my > machine and pick the most linux compatible parts that way. > How about 1600x1200 or 1920x1440, or even 2880x1800 non-glossy screens in a 15" form-factor? Can I get one of these from lenovo (today)? -sgh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 20:19:29 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 15:19:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204145840.GA28537-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204145840.GA28537@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | When I say "netbook", I mean the crippled versions specified by MS and | Intel; e.g. stuff like a max of 2 gigs of ram. I've bought three things called netbooks. Each had low RAM, enforced by Windows. A new high-capacity SODIMM was cheap and Linux somehow didn't get the memo about low RAM limit. Solved. Two had 1366x768 displays and one had 1280x720. Each was 10.1 inch. Not easy to find, but I was unwilling to settle for less. Two were Atoms. Slow, but good enough. Two had weak Intel graphics. One of those had a Broadcom accelerator but we haven't used it. So videos aren't so great. Bad experiences: Keyboard stopped working on an LG x120. Fixed under warranty (LG paid shipping both ways). Dell Inspiron Mini 1012 has no fan. Silence is golden. But the darn thing overheats. We neglected to get it fixed while under warranty. Maybe removing the unused Broadcom card would help. The Acer Aspire One 522 has a poor keyboard. The battery life is short (AMD processors take more power than Intel). Video driver support took much longer to come than it should have. On balance, these have been good purchases. | My old netbook has an | "embedded" version Atom that does 32-bit only! Even so, it could've | easily addressed 3 gigs of ram. Linux will support almost 4G on these devices. Most 32-bit x86 processors (since the Pentium Pro) support PAE (Physical Address Extension), allowing much more than 4G. The (some?) 32-bit Atoms have PAE but they don't bring all the address pins out to the bus!!!! So some address space must be tied up with video, meaning 4G of RAM cannot be handled. Talk about brain-dead. I couldn't believe it until I read the datasheet of the processor. It was *not* highlighted. Now that's crippled! | If you mean to say this is what | netbooks should have been like, then that's a different matter. As I pointed out, there were non-crippled netbooks. | I'll try to check a local shop where I bought my "Home Theatre" PC | from. The websites I've found are pushing either clearout crippled | netbooks or highend ultrabooks, and nothing in between. Future shop has sold a few clearance ultrabooks for $500. Too few to count on catching. RedFlagDeals.com has had a few threads on them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 21:08:43 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 16:08:43 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204192956.GA20893-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204192956.GA20893@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130204210843.GC30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 02:29:57PM -0500, William Park wrote: > Avoid HP. > Lenovo, Samsung, Asus have good rumours. > Dell is gamble. From personal circle, Dell has 50% failure within 2 > years. Avoid samsung until they fix their UEFI bricking problem. :) Dell and HP are certainly at the bottom of my list. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 21:44:10 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 16:44:10 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204195334.GK13571-Ja3L+HSX0kI@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204191254.GB30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130204195334.GK13571@vex.net> Message-ID: <20130204214410.GD30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 02:53:34PM -0500, Steve Harvey wrote: > How about 1600x1200 or 1920x1440, or even 2880x1800 non-glossy screens in > a 15" form-factor? Can I get one of these from lenovo (today)? Not sure who does those. Mine is 1920x1080 on a 15.something" 2880x1800 is only mac so far. Not sure how many 1920x1200 you can find at the moment. Haven't seen 1600x1200 in a long time. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 22:13:10 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 17:13:10 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204195334.GK13571-Ja3L+HSX0kI@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204191254.GB30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130204195334.GK13571@vex.net> Message-ID: <20130204221310.GA9382@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 02:53:34PM -0500, Steve Harvey wrote: > On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 02:12:54PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > I don't buy Acer stuff because their purpose for existing is to make > > cheap stuff. Asus and Lenovo are the two brands I would buy for laptops > > as they are among the best in reliability out there. I tend to go for > > the lenovo option because I can actually customize what I get in my > > machine and pick the most linux compatible parts that way. > > > > How about 1600x1200 or 1920x1440, or even 2880x1800 non-glossy screens in > a 15" form-factor? Can I get one of these from lenovo (today)? But, what good is it if your laptop doesn't work in 6 months? Even if you do RMA, what do you do while it's in transit? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 22:33:46 2013 From: sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Steve Harvey) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 17:33:46 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204221310.GA9382-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204191254.GB30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130204195334.GK13571@vex.net> <20130204221310.GA9382@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130204223345.GL13571@vex.net> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 05:13:10PM -0500, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 02:53:34PM -0500, Steve Harvey wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 02:12:54PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > > > I don't buy Acer stuff because their purpose for existing is to make > > > cheap stuff. Asus and Lenovo are the two brands I would buy for laptops > > > as they are among the best in reliability out there. I tend to go for > > > the lenovo option because I can actually customize what I get in my > > > machine and pick the most linux compatible parts that way. > > > > > > > How about 1600x1200 or 1920x1440, or even 2880x1800 non-glossy screens in > > a 15" form-factor? Can I get one of these from lenovo (today)? > > But, what good is it if your laptop doesn't work in 6 months? Even if > you do RMA, what do you do while it's in transit? I have two lenovo T60's, each 1400x1050 and 6 years old. The kernel builds for each are slightly different, which is easily selectable from the GRUB menu should I need to switch hard drives while one is in the repair shop. Alas, the drives are PATA. I wish they hadn't swallowed the wide-screen koolaid like everyone else... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 23:08:37 2013 From: sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Steve Harvey) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 18:08:37 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204214410.GD30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204191254.GB30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130204195334.GK13571@vex.net> <20130204214410.GD30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130204230836.GM13571@vex.net> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 04:44:10PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 02:53:34PM -0500, Steve Harvey wrote: > > How about 1600x1200 or 1920x1440, or even 2880x1800 non-glossy screens in > > a 15" form-factor? Can I get one of these from lenovo (today)? > > Not sure who does those. Mine is 1920x1080 on a 15.something" > > 2880x1800 is only mac so far. Not sure how many 1920x1200 you can find > at the moment. > > Haven't seen 1600x1200 in a long time. > AFAIK, no one yet does 1920x1440. I just threw it in as a 4:3 aspect ratio response to the ubiquitous 1920x1080. Considering that the widespread adoption of high pixel density cellphones has demonstrated that at least some portion of laptop users might welcome higher resolutions, where are the vendors on this (other than Apple)? I would love to be able to quantify the size of this market niche. I imagine that small form-factors also require less raw materials and consume less power. I don't want to buy multiple/humongous monitors unless I actually want to demo something. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 4 23:25:18 2013 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 18:25:18 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204230836.GM13571-Ja3L+HSX0kI@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204191254.GB30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130204195334.GK13571@vex.net> <20130204214410.GD30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130204230836.GM13571@vex.net> Message-ID: <5110435E.3@utoronto.ca> On 13-02-04 06:08 PM, Steve Harvey wrote: >> Haven't seen 1600x1200 in a long time. >> > > AFAIK, no one yet does 1920x1440. I just threw it in as a 4:3 aspect > ratio response to the ubiquitous 1920x1080. > > Considering that the widespread adoption of high pixel density cellphones > has demonstrated that at least some portion of laptop users might welcome > higher resolutions, where are the vendors on this (other than Apple)? I > would love to be able to quantify the size of this market niche. > > I imagine that small form-factors also require less raw materials and > consume less power. I don't want to buy multiple/humongous monitors > unless I actually want to demo something. I have a first generation Zenbook[1] running Debian, I bought it for the form factor (13.3" 1600x900 display) and portability. The newer generation of Zenbook Prime (same UX31 model number) is 1920x1080 in a matte finish in the same 13.3" size IIRC. [1] http://zenbook.asus.com/zenbook/?c=ux31a Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 01:47:23 2013 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 20:47:23 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <510FEEA2.40403-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 13-02-02 07:46 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: > > But, to be very blunt, the core hassles are lugging in a monitor and > > keyboard for each player, but more importantly the monitors are also > > the majority of the component cost and also the most fragile. > > Lugging around a monitor and keyboard is the same hassle one would have > with any LAN party. The main difference being is that a Pi is a much > easier to deal with than lugging around a computer in a tower case. > > Using a monitor from a car backup camera system, and a mini wireless > keyboard with built-in mouse pad means an entire computer system can fit > in a small back or backpack. I have seen these monitors avaialable in > 3.5", 4.3", and 7". The caveat is that the resolution is very low. About > 480x234 on all of them (even on the 7"). You wouldn't want to be reading > a lot of text on a screen that small but it would be ok for some > graphics based programs. Just get yourself any reasonable netbook and you've got all that in a package you can flip open with far less hassle than plugging together a bunch of components. Juggling a Pi with all that just isn't viable. Granted, being able to go somewhere up north with a nice big flatscreen and a Model M keyboard and be able to fit everything else you need to do some coding in your back pocket could still be a Pi application. But if you're hauling a pile of stuff then a bigger computer works too. The Pi shines mostly for being cheap and tiny and having GPIO pins. Note also that the latest Intel thing about them getting out of the traditional desktop-board racket is not because desktops are dead, but rather that the ATX form factor is a huge waste of real estate: Intel can do all it wants to do for a high-end machine on a four-inch-square board nowadays. And that's only about double the size of a Pi. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 15:19:44 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 10:19:44 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130205014723.GD19974-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> Message-ID: <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 08:47:23PM -0500, Anthony de Boer wrote: > Just get yourself any reasonable netbook and you've got all that in a > package you can flip open with far less hassle than plugging together > a bunch of components. Juggling a Pi with all that just isn't viable. > > Granted, being able to go somewhere up north with a nice big flatscreen > and a Model M keyboard and be able to fit everything else you need to > do some coding in your back pocket could still be a Pi application. > But if you're hauling a pile of stuff then a bigger computer works too. > > The Pi shines mostly for being cheap and tiny and having GPIO pins. > > Note also that the latest Intel thing about them getting out of the > traditional desktop-board racket is not because desktops are dead, but > rather that the ATX form factor is a huge waste of real estate: Intel can > do all it wants to do for a high-end machine on a four-inch-square board > nowadays. And that's only about double the size of a Pi. The memory and cpu sockets alone take more than that on a high end intel. 8 DDR3 slots and a 2011 pin cpu socket takes some space. And of course any high end machine would want at least one PCIe x16 slot for a video card (since that is something intel certainly doesn't know how to do yet). But certainly 7 expansion slots are hadly ever needed except by those people that seem to think 3 or 4 video cards working together is required. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 15:36:37 2013 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 10:36:37 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130205151944.GE30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 08:47:23PM -0500, Anthony de Boer wrote: >> Just get yourself any reasonable netbook and you've got all that in a >> package you can flip open with far less hassle than plugging together >> a bunch of components. Juggling a Pi with all that just isn't viable. >> >> Granted, being able to go somewhere up north with a nice big flatscreen >> and a Model M keyboard and be able to fit everything else you need to >> do some coding in your back pocket could still be a Pi application. >> But if you're hauling a pile of stuff then a bigger computer works too. >> >> The Pi shines mostly for being cheap and tiny and having GPIO pins. >> >> Note also that the latest Intel thing about them getting out of the >> traditional desktop-board racket is not because desktops are dead, but >> rather that the ATX form factor is a huge waste of real estate: Intel can >> do all it wants to do for a high-end machine on a four-inch-square board >> nowadays. And that's only about double the size of a Pi. > > The memory and cpu sockets alone take more than that on a high end intel. > 8 DDR3 slots and a 2011 pin cpu socket takes some space. And of course > any high end machine would want at least one PCIe x16 slot for a video > card (since that is something intel certainly doesn't know how to do yet). > > But certainly 7 expansion slots are hadly ever needed except by those > people that seem to think 3 or 4 video cards working together is required. Well, there still are a range of people who want/need to do massive amounts of IO (not just video out). Obviously there are other examples, but the first one that come to my mind is extreme MythTV people who want to be able to record from EVERYTHING (cable TV, OTA, and satellite), For the extreme MythTV people 7 expansion slots could be used up very quickly. > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 16:24:51 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 11:24:51 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 08:47:23PM -0500, Anthony de Boer wrote: >>> Just get yourself any reasonable netbook and you've got all that in a >>> package you can flip open with far less hassle than plugging together >>> a bunch of components. Juggling a Pi with all that just isn't viable. >>> >>> Granted, being able to go somewhere up north with a nice big flatscreen >>> and a Model M keyboard and be able to fit everything else you need to >>> do some coding in your back pocket could still be a Pi application. >>> But if you're hauling a pile of stuff then a bigger computer works too. >>> >>> The Pi shines mostly for being cheap and tiny and having GPIO pins. >>> >>> Note also that the latest Intel thing about them getting out of the >>> traditional desktop-board racket is not because desktops are dead, but >>> rather that the ATX form factor is a huge waste of real estate: Intel can >>> do all it wants to do for a high-end machine on a four-inch-square board >>> nowadays. And that's only about double the size of a Pi. >> >> The memory and cpu sockets alone take more than that on a high end intel. >> 8 DDR3 slots and a 2011 pin cpu socket takes some space. And of course >> any high end machine would want at least one PCIe x16 slot for a video >> card (since that is something intel certainly doesn't know how to do yet). >> >> But certainly 7 expansion slots are hadly ever needed except by those >> people that seem to think 3 or 4 video cards working together is required. > > Well, there still are a range of people who want/need to do massive > amounts of IO (not just video out). Obviously there are other > examples, but the first one that come to my mind is extreme MythTV > people who want to be able to record from EVERYTHING (cable TV, OTA, > and satellite), For the extreme MythTV people 7 expansion slots could > be used up very quickly. Sure, but this purpose deviates heavily from what Intel would have in mind in terms of the "4 inch square board" notion. A MythTV recording box isn't much like that There are a number of scenarios where computers should be physically fairly large, and this tends to relate to scenarios involving heavy I/O: a) Database servers want to have a lot of disk and connectivlity, and hence, quite commonly, multiple RAID controllers and NICs. b) A MythTV box needs multiple recording cards. c) A machine devoted to disk storage needs many RAID controllers d) A network controller (which covers a number of cases, firewalls, packet shapers) needs a whole bunch of NICs, and possibly crypto accelerator cards These have some diversity of purpose, but they all imply that there is an ongoing need for "tower/server" boxes with a bunch of slots for things supplementary to what's on a typical motherboard. And this does nothing to prevent Intel from discovering that there is considerable value in selling Many Many Many desktop-oriented systems that didn't need the extra controllers and which can fit into a few square inches of board area, and, correspondingly, into a pretty tiny number of cubic inches of case space. I'd think this eminently true for typical office desktops. Raspberry Pi may be a *bit* on the wimpy side for such, but something powerful enough to run Office 2013, um, wait a moment, yes, that probably requires sufficiently entropy-bending amounts of RAM and CPU that, hey, "My hair is a bird, your argument is invalid!" Sorry about that... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 16:47:29 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 11:47:29 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <510FFE4B.5050807-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 13-02-04 12:42 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> >> That said, I'm hoping to grab one of these >> as a dedicated Pi display. > > > That is a much better resolution for a 7" display than the resolution in the > car backup system monitors. The only downside is the price. You could buy a > 23" LCD monitor from Best Buy for the same amount of money. Since joining the Pine* project (and now maintaining) I've wanted dedicated hardware for building and testing the linux distro on which the console is based. In this case, I'd prefer the small size so I can easily put everything away in a drawer when I'm not working on the project. In addition to portability, this little display can act as a handy diagnostic tool - I keep a spare VGA monitor around in case I need physical access to some older headless boxes. This monitor mostly just sits around and collects dust. I'd rather be rid of it. BTW, about 5pm last night I recieved a notice from Adafruit saying these units were back in stock. When I visited the page, they had 25. There's currently 10 left. * -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 16:58:57 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 11:58:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | Sure, but this purpose deviates heavily from what Intel would have in mind | in terms of the "4 inch square board" notion. A MythTV recording box isn't | much like that There has always been a tension between flexability and efficiency. Plug-in cards, and even just card slots, are more expensive than integrated devices. We (Unix and Linux folks) have been really lucky that Win 3 pushed commodity hardware such that it was capable of running our systems fairly well. Quibbles: they didn't understand headless or remote management or reliability (think ECC) or a myriad other things as well as we'd like. But they were "good enough". Part of this was forward thinking by Intel: eg. putting in an MMU before the DOS / Windows folks needed it. We're moving into an era where that cannot be assumed. Examples: "sealed" boxes that prevent anything but the manufacturer-provided OS (Apple iOS devices, Microsoft WinRT devices, cell phones in general). If not sealed, many have undocumented hardware that is hard for FLOSS to support. Laptops have always been worse for Linux than desktops; desktops are fading. New systems are integrated in the way laptops are -- possibly even more so. Linux is doing OK for drivers. Other third party OSes have whithered because they cannot support the deluge of devices. For them, you have to hand-pick your system's peripherals, possibly from a scrap yard. For example, my impression is most Plan 9 users run it on a virtual machine for this reason (luckilly, it runs on the bare Raspberry Pi). I think that this is a major factor in the dominance of Linux compared with *BSD. And Windows above all. Android is the new Windows (except on Intel). The fact that it is based on Linux gives us a significant help. But the Android video drivers don't support our userland. PS: what would it take to write an X or Wayland server that uses the Android video drivers? For all we've debased our desktops to be tablet-like (Unity, Gnome 3), there doesn't seem to be a familiar distro that actually works on a tablet in a useful way. I have a Nexus 10 waiting to be upgraded. What a screen! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 17:16:05 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 12:16:05 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript Message-ID: Per Slashdot: "Much to most programmers' shock and dismay Gnome has made JavaScript its main language for apps. It will still support other languages and it still supports C for libraries, but for apps it is JavaScript that rules. JavaScript seems to be a good choice for Gnome 3, as the shell UI is written in the language. It is also consistent with the use of JavaScript in WinRT, Chrome Apps, and FirefoxOS apps, and generally the rise of web apps. As you might expect, the initial reactions are of horror at the idea that JavaScript has been selected rather than the favorite language of the commenter. There is a great deal of ignorance about (and prejudice against) JavaScript, which is often regarded as an incomplete toy language rather than the elegant and sparse language that it actually is." I'd love to hear perspectives on this. (I'm a little biased in that I actually like JavaScript and think this is the right way to go. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 17:31:11 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 12:31:11 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I'd love to hear perspectives on this. (I'm a little biased in that I > actually like JavaScript and think this is the right way to go. ;-) If we step *WAY* back, to 1994, when the 'war' began to make GNOME scriptable, the fight was between Tcl and Lisp. http://www.vanderburg.org/OldPages/Tcl/war/0000.html I'm rather disappointed that it has taken 18 years to get to the point where it seems to make sense to integrate a scripting language into GNOME so as to be able to 'do everything.' I don't think JavaScript is actually a more horrible choice than Tcl or Guile were, back then. I don't think Tcl *or* Guile are options, today; both are still supported, but only marginally. The 'traditionally popular' scripting languages, Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, would involve drawing in pretty large 'core libraries' that live at the individual OS level, which isn't a keen thing; that's expensive to have to integrate into the framework. JavaScript is more nearly 'self contained,' which has merit, for sure, and I can't think of another language that has that. Again, I'm just disappointed that it took 18 years to get around to it... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 17:37:12 2013 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 12:37:12 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > I'm rather disappointed that it has taken 18 years to get to the point > where it seems to make sense to integrate a scripting language into > GNOME so as to be able to 'do everything.' GNOME isn't a Richard Stallman creation... it only claims to have been around since Miguel and Federico conceived it in 1997. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 18:10:25 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 13:10:25 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130205181025.GF30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 12:16:05PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > Per Slashdot: > > "Much to most programmers' shock and dismay Gnome has made JavaScript > its main language for apps. It will still support other languages and > it still supports C for libraries, but for apps it is JavaScript that > rules. JavaScript seems to be a good choice for Gnome 3, as the shell > UI is written in the language. It is also consistent with the use of > JavaScript in WinRT, Chrome Apps, and FirefoxOS apps, and generally > the rise of web apps. As you might expect, the initial reactions are > of horror at the idea that JavaScript has been selected rather than > the favorite language of the commenter. There is a great deal of > ignorance about (and prejudice against) JavaScript, which is often > regarded as an incomplete toy language rather than the elegant and > sparse language that it actually is." > > > > I'd love to hear perspectives on this. (I'm a little biased in that I > actually like JavaScript and think this is the right way to go. ;-) I have yet to see elegant javascript. coffeescript is pretty elegant and compiles to javascript. Of course having already given up on gnome 3, this isn't going to change anything. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 18:18:40 2013 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 13:18:40 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I'd love to hear perspectives on this. (I'm a little biased in that I > actually like JavaScript and think this is the right way to go. ;-) >From a documentation team perspective it will simplify things. Vala seems to be the language of choice for apps developed within the project, but it's not the best tool for convincing people to develop apps for your platform. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 18:33:19 2013 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 13:33:19 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:58 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > For all we've debased our desktops to be tablet-like (Unity, Gnome 3), > there doesn't seem to be a familiar distro that actually works on a tablet > in a useful way. I have a Nexus 10 waiting to be upgraded. What a > screen! I got a Nexus 7 last week to run gnome-shell, made possible because of the Ubuntu port. I'm not quite there with my own installation effort, but I have to admit Unity (the intermediate step) looks terrific and works well. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 19:20:01 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 14:20:01 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20130205192001.GG30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 11:47:29AM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > Since joining the Pine* project (and now maintaining) I've wanted > dedicated hardware for building and testing the linux distro on which > the console is based. In this case, I'd prefer the small size so I > can easily put everything away in a drawer when I'm not working on the > project. Great, they had to name their library the same as a long time well known email client. Briliant. Open source namespace colisions suck. > In addition to portability, this little display can act as a handy > diagnostic tool - I keep a spare VGA monitor around in case I need > physical access to some older headless boxes. This monitor mostly > just sits around and collects dust. I'd rather be rid of it. > > BTW, about 5pm last night I recieved a notice from Adafruit saying these > units were back in stock. When I visited the page, they had 25. > There's currently 10 left. > > * -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 19:21:40 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 14:21:40 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130205192140.GH30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 10:36:37AM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > Well, there still are a range of people who want/need to do massive > amounts of IO (not just video out). Obviously there are other > examples, but the first one that come to my mind is extreme MythTV > people who want to be able to record from EVERYTHING (cable TV, OTA, > and satellite), For the extreme MythTV people 7 expansion slots could > be used up very quickly. Sure, although many USB tuners exist. Certainly my primary tuner these days is entirely external using USB (For capture) and Firewire (for control of cable box). Doing over the air you could use a bunch of internal PCIe/PCI tuner cards for ATSC and get quite a lot. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 19:53:40 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 14:53:40 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: <20130205181025.GF30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130205181025.GF30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I have yet to see elegant javascript. coffeescript is pretty elegant > and compiles to javascript. I'm not really a fan of coffeescript but have to admit some interest in Microsofts' typescript which also compiles to js: As for elegant javascript, anecdotal evidence suggests it's dependent on skill level. John Resig's simple inheritance model comes to mind as a good example . "Learning JavaScript Design Patterns" by Addy Osmani provides more . Some of the node.js developers are downright awe inspiring. While not particularly "elegant," dnsserver.js - an authoritative DNS server - is still one of my favorite examples of javascript outside of the browser environment. Clocks in at < 500 lines, comments and empty lines included. -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 19:56:14 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 14:56:14 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130205192001.GG30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> <20130205192001.GG30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 11:47:29AM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> Since joining the Pine* project (and now maintaining) I've wanted >> dedicated hardware for building and testing the linux distro on which >> the console is based. In this case, I'd prefer the small size so I >> can easily put everything away in a drawer when I'm not working on the >> project. > > Great, they had to name their library the same as a long time well known > email client. Briliant. Open source namespace colisions suck. Indeed; once I get things stabilized I'll be taking it up with the group. ;-) -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 20:33:05 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:33:05 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> <20130205192001.GG30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130205203305.GI30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 02:56:14PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > Indeed; once I get things stabilized I'll be taking it up with the group. ;-) Other collisions I remember: git (Bad Linus) go (Bad Google) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 20:38:01 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:38:01 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: References: <20130205181025.GF30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130205203801.GJ30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 02:53:40PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I'm not really a fan of coffeescript but have to admit some interest > in Microsofts' typescript which also compiles to js: > > > > As for elegant javascript, anecdotal evidence suggests it's dependent > on skill level. John Resig's simple inheritance model comes to mind as > a good example . > "Learning JavaScript Design Patterns" by Addy Osmani provides more > . I consider objected oriented programming to be a Bad Thing in general. > Some of the node.js developers are downright awe inspiring. While not > particularly "elegant," dnsserver.js - an authoritative DNS server - > is still one of my favorite examples of javascript outside of the > browser environment. Clocks in at < 500 lines, comments and empty > lines included. > > Not bad. 434 lines (including generous good comments). Not sure how much the 'use' statements add toit, but system library use is not a bad thing. OK, apparently it is possible to write pretty decent looking javascript. I still don't think I will consider it elegant, but that's personal taste too. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 20:41:11 2013 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:41:11 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: <20130205203801.GJ30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130205181025.GF30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130205203801.GJ30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: > I consider objected oriented programming to be a Bad Thing in general. I personally would like to know the reasoning for that. It seems a pretty heavy handed dismissal of an approach to programming. Will Weaver On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 02:53:40PM -0500, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > I'm not really a fan of coffeescript but have to admit some interest > > in Microsofts' typescript which also compiles to js: > > > > > > > > As for elegant javascript, anecdotal evidence suggests it's dependent > > on skill level. John Resig's simple inheritance model comes to mind as > > a good example . > > "Learning JavaScript Design Patterns" by Addy Osmani provides more > > . > > I consider objected oriented programming to be a Bad Thing in general. > > > Some of the node.js developers are downright awe inspiring. While not > > particularly "elegant," dnsserver.js - an authoritative DNS server - > > is still one of my favorite examples of javascript outside of the > > browser environment. Clocks in at < 500 lines, comments and empty > > lines included. > > > > > > Not bad. 434 lines (including generous good comments). > > Not sure how much the 'use' statements add toit, but system library use > is not a bad thing. > > OK, apparently it is possible to write pretty decent looking javascript. > I still don't think I will consider it elegant, but that's personal > taste too. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 20:48:18 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:48:18 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204223345.GL13571-Ja3L+HSX0kI@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204191254.GB30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130204195334.GK13571@vex.net> <20130204221310.GA9382@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130204223345.GL13571@vex.net> Message-ID: <20130205204817.GA31182@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 05:33:46PM -0500, Steve Harvey wrote > I wish they hadn't swallowed the wide-screen koolaid like everyone > else... I think it's a matter of the OEM screen makers standardizing on 1920x1080, with economies of scale going there. If you want non-standard 1920x1200 you pay a hefty premium. Outside of Apple iToys, that kills sales. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 21:01:02 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:01:02 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130204210843.GC30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204192956.GA20893@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130204210843.GC30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130205210102.GB31182@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 04:08:43PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Avoid samsung until they fix their UEFI bricking problem. :) The problem is already fixed according to... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/01/linux_samsung_laptop_fix_advice/ but the fix may take a while to reach the mainstream kernel. I'd prefer to avoid UEFI altogether. UEFI is proof positive that those of us who ranted against Palladium and "Trusted Computing" and the "Fritz chip" were not paranoid, after all. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 21:03:44 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:03:44 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: References: <20130205181025.GF30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130205203801.GJ30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Weaver wrote: >> I consider objected oriented programming to be a Bad Thing in general. > > I personally would like to know the reasoning for that. It seems a pretty > heavy handed dismissal of an approach to programming. I find OO to be a dogma that's desperately in need of some actual theory to support it. I'm not aware that there are two notionally "object oriented" languages that have identical models for what "object oriented" means. - They always have some notion of "classes", but a class in C++ isn't the same as in Objective C or in Smalltalk or as in CLOS. Except, it's NOT true that they "always have some notion of classes," as Self, which is the basis for Javascript and Lua, doesn't have classes, using prototypes instead. - They always have some notion of "inheritance", but C++, Java, Ruby, CLOS have, across them, *extremely* different semantics. And inheritance requires having a class to inherit from, so "always" isn't quite as often as one might have imagined. I find that people, once properly indoctrinated into object orientation dogmas, are frequently painfully unaccepting of the notion that there are other programming paradigms that might be of value, slavishly trying to force everything into the procrustean bed represented by whichever "OO" language was the first one they got excited about. What with the absence of firm theory (go looking; you'll find a *tiny* number of books with genuinely theoretical material on OO; they'll all fit in a briefcase), why *wouldn't* it be more interesting to look at the broad set of programming paradigms, such as: - agent-oriented - flow-based - declarative - functional - event-driven - concurrency - parallelism (!= concurrency) - logic programming (& unification) - pattern matching - generative programming -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 21:34:04 2013 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:34:04 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: References: <20130205181025.GF30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130205203801.GJ30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: >>I find that people, once properly indoctrinated into object orientation >>dogmas, are frequently painfully unaccepting of the notion that there are >> other programming paradigms that might be of value, slavishly trying to >>force everything into the procrustean bed represented by whichever "OO" >>language was the first one they got excited about. That also seems like a pretty opinion laden and heavy handed stereotype. I personally switch between Java, C, and tcl in my day to day and find that I take the approach that makes the most sense for the task at hand. I wouldn't force a C library into an object paradigm that would be best served with another model but I also wouldn't deny myself a simple object oriented approach in Java when it allows for large designs to be quickly templated and abstracted in some cases saving me hours of work that are replaced with fully featured and well planed for inherited objects. Personally I believe each job should be evaluated as to what is the right tool for it. By your definition I must not be "properly indoctinated" as I maintain free choice about how I choose to approach problems. I would suggest though before completely dismissing a programing paradigm that is very popular you consider that there is often a reason for such popularity. Sometimes it might be the right tool for the job. William Weaver On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 4:03 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Weaver > wrote: > >> I consider objected oriented programming to be a Bad Thing in general. > > > > I personally would like to know the reasoning for that. It seems a pretty > > heavy handed dismissal of an approach to programming. > > I find OO to be a dogma that's desperately in need of some actual theory to > support it. > > I'm not aware that there are two notionally "object oriented" languages > that > have identical models for what "object oriented" means. > > - They always have some notion of "classes", but a class in C++ isn't the > same as in Objective C or in Smalltalk or as in CLOS. > > Except, it's NOT true that they "always have some notion of classes," as > Self, which is the basis for Javascript and Lua, doesn't have classes, > using > prototypes instead. > > - They always have some notion of "inheritance", but C++, Java, Ruby, CLOS > have, across them, *extremely* different semantics. And inheritance > requires having a class to inherit from, so "always" isn't quite as > often as > one might have imagined. > > I find that people, once properly indoctrinated into object orientation > dogmas, > are frequently painfully unaccepting of the notion that there are > other programming > paradigms that might be of value, slavishly trying to force everything > into the > procrustean bed represented by whichever "OO" language was the first one > they > got excited about. > > What with the absence of firm theory (go looking; you'll find a *tiny* > number of > books with genuinely theoretical material on OO; they'll all fit in a > briefcase), > why *wouldn't* it be more interesting to look at the broad set of > programming > paradigms, such as: > - agent-oriented > - flow-based > - declarative > - functional > - event-driven > - concurrency > - parallelism (!= concurrency) > - logic programming (& unification) > - pattern matching > - generative programming > > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 21:55:45 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:55:45 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: References: <20130205181025.GF30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130205203801.GJ30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130205215545.GK30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 03:41:11PM -0500, William Weaver wrote: > I personally would like to know the reasoning for that. It seems a pretty > heavy handed dismissal of an approach to programming. Well first of all, things almost never organize nicely into a hiearchy of classes. There always seem to be exceptions. Most people end up making a mess. More importantly, scalability across multiple CPUs is much simpler with functional programing languages. The common procedural object oriented languages (C++, java, c#, etc) simply aren't suited for it and involve a lot of work to try and make scalable code. Functional languages can let the language take care of scalability because you say what to do to the date rather than say how to do things to the data. Parallel programming is hard, and CPUs are not going to get much faster (there will just be a lot more of them). Time to start using the languages suited to the future. I will admit object oriented can be pretty handy for dealing with GUIs, but that's about it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 22:03:28 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 17:03:28 -0500 Subject: Linux compatability of a couple of laptops? In-Reply-To: <20130205210102.GB31182-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130204020253.GA26926@waltdnes.org> <20130204192956.GA20893@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130204210843.GC30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130205210102.GB31182@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20130205220328.GL30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 04:01:02PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 04:08:43PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > > Avoid samsung until they fix their UEFI bricking problem. :) > > The problem is already fixed according to... > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/01/linux_samsung_laptop_fix_advice/ No the fix is NOT the kernel. The fix has to be in the firmware since a virus could easily do what the kernel did and kill the machine. Making linux not trigger it is nice and polite, but isn't a fix. It's treating the symptoms at best. > but the fix may take a while to reach the mainstream kernel. I'd prefer > to avoid UEFI altogether. UEFI is proof positive that those of us who > ranted against Palladium and "Trusted Computing" and the "Fritz chip" > were not paranoid, after all. UEFI is just a better BIOS. Nothing wrong with that. About time we got rid of that old pile of shit. The other things are a seperate issue that could easily have been implemented with the old style BIOS if people had wanted to (and in certain cases it was implemented, but not universally). The issue these days is that microsoft has decided to make UEFI (a good thing), secureboot (a useful thing for some people) on by default (not such a good thing) using only microsoft's key (a bad thing), a requirement for getting windows 8 logo certification. UEFI is great (unless you implement it the way samsung apparently did), and means you can use GPT (GUID partion table) which supports 128 partitions and much better boot support on disks larger than 2TB. The BIOS only supported MBR on disks up to 2GB. Sure grub could use a fake MBR table with jump code to fake it on a disk with GPT but it isn't as clean. The old partition table was very limited in number of partitions and the size of the disk. Even secureboot can be very useful to companies that want to keep their machines secure and locked down. Nothing wrong with that. Microsoft hijacking it to protect against some types of viruses and preventing easy installation of other OSs is not great. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 22:04:08 2013 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 17:04:08 -0500 Subject: Gnome Goes JavaScript In-Reply-To: <20130205215545.GK30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130205181025.GF30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130205203801.GJ30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130205215545.GK30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: > Well first of all, things almost never organize nicely into a hiearchy > of classes. There always seem to be exceptions. Most people end up > making a mess. At this point I'm going to excuse myself from the conversation as we've gotten pretty far off the topic and truthfully I don't want to be involved in a flame war. But I do feel your bias makes discourse difficult. William Weaver On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 03:41:11PM -0500, William Weaver wrote: > > I personally would like to know the reasoning for that. It seems a pretty > > heavy handed dismissal of an approach to programming. > > Well first of all, things almost never organize nicely into a hiearchy > of classes. There always seem to be exceptions. Most people end up > making a mess. > > More importantly, scalability across multiple CPUs is much simpler with > functional programing languages. The common procedural object oriented > languages (C++, java, c#, etc) simply aren't suited for it and involve > a lot of work to try and make scalable code. Functional languages can > let the language take care of scalability because you say what to do to > the date rather than say how to do things to the data. Parallel > programming is hard, and CPUs are not going to get much faster (there > will just be a lot more of them). Time to start using the languages > suited to the future. > > I will admit object oriented can be pretty handy for dealing with GUIs, > but that's about it. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 5 22:14:01 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 17:14:01 -0500 Subject: 10 Myths About Systemd In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130205221401.GM30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:08:00AM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > The most cogent counterargument that I have seen is this one: > > > > There are definitely some things there worth quibbling with. > > The notable one is where PAPPP complains: > "This program is not intended to be used by scripts or other programs" > > That would be fair comment were it not that there's an intended "out" > for scripts and other programs to use, namely udisks2-daemon > > There are complaints about udisks2-daemon: > http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/udisks2-another-loss-for-linux/ > > I'm not sure (see docs: > ) > if it is the case that the "published accesses" are inadequate. > > There's also a "flame war" that has harvested things that seem worth > looking at: > > I think it's a fascinating idea to consider replacing traditional init > with something else, and have long thought it to be so. But it's not > obvious to me that the direction taken with systemd is quite right. > It sure looks like it's being created for the convenience of certain > applications, rather than broad improvement of the "initialization > condition," which seems wrong. I think the current problem is that udev is pretty much necesary on all systems these days. systemd certainly is not, and there are plenty of other valid options for systems to use instead. The systemd (and udev now) maintainers have already shown quite clearly that they don't care about breaking peoples systems if anyone does things differently than the maintainers think it should be done. They have clearly shown they have no interest in what anyone else thinks (such as the request that it should be possible to take the source tree and just configure, compile and install udev without the rest of the crap, to which the maintainers have said "NO". They expect you to build everything and then just install udev which is a huge waste for many situations). More debateable is that some (at least one) of the main developers of systemd have previously shown on other projects (like pulseaudio) that they are not capable of writing stable software that always works and that they really don't care what anyone else thinks or wants. Why should people be willing to accept udev being tied into systemd and everything else given how it is being maintained and by who? Maybe systemd will turn out to be good for many situations, and will solve a lot of problems. That doesn't excuse the way it is currently being developed and handled. I can see why some people want to rescue udev from the systemd project. It just seems way too much like gnome 3 except this is way more important than gnome. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 6 12:26:26 2013 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 07:26:26 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130205192001.GG30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> <20130205192001.GG30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <51124BF2.7050803@gmail.com> On 05-02-13 14:20 , Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Great, they had to name their library the same as a long time well known > email client. Briliant. Open source namespace colisions suck. ah, don't worry. No-one under 40 knows what pine is, anyway. We can have the same words meaning different things; we are sophisticated that way. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 6 13:06:55 2013 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 08:06:55 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130205151944.GE30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130206130655.GI19974@adb.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 08:47:23PM -0500, Anthony de Boer wrote: > > Note also that the latest Intel thing about them getting out of the > > traditional desktop-board racket is not because desktops are dead, but > > rather that the ATX form factor is a huge waste of real estate: Intel can > > do all it wants to do for a high-end machine on a four-inch-square board > > nowadays. And that's only about double the size of a Pi. > > The memory and cpu sockets alone take more than that on a high end intel. > 8 DDR3 slots and a 2011 pin cpu socket takes some space. And of course > any high end machine would want at least one PCIe x16 slot for a video > card (since that is something intel certainly doesn't know how to do yet). I was quoting from recollection of: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/24/intel_exits_desktop_motherboard_market/ which in turn led to a search that found: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/next-unit-computing-introduction.html which certainly look like a couple of sweet wee boards. > But certainly 7 expansion slots are hadly ever needed except by those > people that seem to think 3 or 4 video cards working together is required. I think the world in general is moving toward USB-or-faster external interfaces (Thunderbolt, on one of those NUC boards) in part for laptop compatibility, and in part to make adding stuff easier and avoid voided warranties by the sort of user who could cut himself with a screwdriver. Granted, you still see dual PCIe slots on that same board, and some internal slots may always be with us, but the days of _everything_ being a card in an Apple ][ are long behind us. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 6 15:07:48 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 10:07:48 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <51124BF2.7050803-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> <20130205192001.GG30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51124BF2.7050803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130206150748.GN30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 07:26:26AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > ah, don't worry. No-one under 40 knows what pine is, anyway. We can have > the same words meaning different things; we are sophisticated that way. I am under 40 and I know what pine is. And apt-get install pine could only install one of them (not that you would want pine on your system, nor is it in debian due to license issues upstream). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 6 16:17:14 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 11:17:14 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130206150748.GN30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> <20130205192001.GG30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51124BF2.7050803@gmail.com> <20130206150748.GN30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 07:26:26AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >> ah, don't worry. No-one under 40 knows what pine is, anyway. We can have >> the same words meaning different things; we are sophisticated that way. :) > I am under 40 and I know what pine is. +1 and a former user to boot. -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 6 17:01:52 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 12:01:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pine [was Re: $35 LAN Party...] In-Reply-To: <20130206150748.GN30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> <20130205192001.GG30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51124BF2.7050803@gmail.com> <20130206150748.GN30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | I am under 40 and I know what pine is. | | And apt-get install pine could only install one of them (not that you | would want pine on your system, nor is it in debian due to license | issues upstream). Pine(tm) has been replaced by Alpine. Alpine claims to have the Apache license. "Pine development has long since come to an end." Alpine development seems to be problematic too. A ray of hope: Different sources give different stories about the name Alpine. A couple say it stand for "Alternatively Licensed Program for Internet News and Email". The official web site says Why Alpine? We just liked the name and the closeness to Pine. The beautiful setting we enjoy here in the Pacific Northwest helped; that is Mt. Rainier on the Alpine logo. But it does admit that licensing and trademark issues were involved. You can track down some interesting licensing conflicts starting from According to Stallman, the U of W license stated: Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee to the University of Washington is hereby granted ? but that U of W claimed that this didn't allow you to distribute modified versions! Mark Crispin died in December. I infer that he was a bright and difficult character and that much of the Pine world was shaped by him. But perhaps it was only the IMAP part. Everyone seems to still call it Pine. Program for Internet News and Email. I and my kids use Alpine. They are under 40. It is fast and efficient and doesn't drown one in crappy HTML and attachments. The chances of getting malware by just looking at mail with Pine are low. We use Alpine via SSH much of the time, something that is more awkward with GUI mail clients. From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 6 22:17:04 2013 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 17:17:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pine/alpine [was: $35 LAN Party...] In-Reply-To: <20130206150748.GN30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> <20130205192001.GG30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51124BF2.7050803@gmail.com> <20130206150748.GN30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 07:26:26AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >> ah, don't worry. No-one under 40 knows what pine is, anyway. We can have >> the same words meaning different things; we are sophisticated that way. > > I am under 40 and I know what pine is. > > And apt-get install pine could only install one of them (not that you > would want pine on your system, nor is it in debian due to license > issues upstream). Pine is longer maintained. It is now called alpine, and the license issues no longer apply. It is still the only mail client I use. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 6 22:29:42 2013 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 17:29:42 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130206130655.GI19974-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130206130655.GI19974@adb.ca> Message-ID: On 6 February 2013 08:06, Anthony de Boer wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 08:47:23PM -0500, Anthony de Boer wrote: >> > Note also that the latest Intel thing about them getting out of the >> > traditional desktop-board racket is not because desktops are dead, but >> > rather that the ATX form factor is a huge waste of real estate: Intel can >> > do all it wants to do for a high-end machine on a four-inch-square board >> > nowadays. And that's only about double the size of a Pi. >> >> The memory and cpu sockets alone take more than that on a high end intel. >> 8 DDR3 slots and a 2011 pin cpu socket takes some space. And of course >> any high end machine would want at least one PCIe x16 slot for a video >> card (since that is something intel certainly doesn't know how to do yet). > > I was quoting from recollection of: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/24/intel_exits_desktop_motherboard_market/ > > which in turn led to a search that found: > > http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/next-unit-computing-introduction.html > > which certainly look like a couple of sweet wee boards. The "Next Unit of Computing" comes equipped with "Three external USB 2.0 ports." Seriously? USB3 is readily available and three times as fast. Accessing a 2TB external HD through a USB2 port is molasses-in-winter fun. "Next Unit" implies progress, but all that seems to have changed is the size ... Or, depending on how you look at it, not even that - this is essentially a fat net-top with a better chip. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 7 03:30:36 2013 From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 22:30:36 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... Message-ID: <20130207033037.87030@gmx.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Colin McGregor > Sent: 02/04/13 01:58 PM > On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > On 13-02-02 07:46 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: > >> > >> But, to be very blunt, the core hassles are lugging in a monitor and > >> keyboard for each player, but more importantly the monitors are also > >> the majority of the component cost and also the most fragile. > > > > Lugging around a monitor and keyboard is the same hassle one would have with > > any LAN party. The main difference being is that a Pi is a much easier to > > deal with than lugging around a computer in a tower case. > > Yes. Also, it largely gets us away from people saying things like "The > only reason she won is because she had a $2,000 video card in her > computer!" type comments (okay, I see Canada Computers is offering > $149.99 gaming mouse (seriously : > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_273_275&item_id=032880)). > But by keeping the compute platform the same we can LARGELY (not > completely) level the playing field. Obviously there would be some > small advantages to be gained via special peripherals (gaming mice, > etc), and some small advantages via OS tweaks, but largely we would be > looking at win/loose based on tactics (camping in one area vs. say > keeping mobile) and reflexes. I'm skeptical that that will work in quite the anticipated manner. The flipside of that is if some people get sore that they're completely unused to dealing with such minimal hardware, perhaps something to look out for, that is, if they come at all. How hard is it to have adequate harmware to run quake3 without issue anyway? So, it seems a degree of reduction of drama there would be based on excluding difficult people, which kind of competes with easily making this kind of thing fly. Compare that to teamplay focused games, where there isn't as much of an intense drive to get sore about outcomes because the goals are more diffused. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anthony de Boer > Sent: 02/04/13 08:47 PM > Kevin Cozens wrote: > > Lugging around a monitor and keyboard is the same hassle one would have > > with any LAN party. The main difference being is that a Pi is a much > > easier to deal with than lugging around a computer in a tower case. > > > > Using a monitor from a car backup camera system, and a mini wireless > > keyboard with built-in mouse pad means an entire computer system can fit > > in a small back or backpack. I have seen these monitors avaialable in > > 3.5", 4.3", and 7". The caveat is that the resolution is very low. About > > 480x234 on all of them (even on the 7"). You wouldn't want to be reading > > a lot of text on a screen that small but it would be ok for some > > graphics based programs. > > Just get yourself any reasonable netbook and you've got all that in a > package you can flip open with far less hassle than plugging together > a bunch of components. Juggling a Pi with all that just isn't viable. Admitedly, netbooks as well as notebooks. for intense gaming perhaps have a downside - tapping away on the whole machine, shaking it, particularly with the hard drive. However much of an issue that is, it could be dealt with by using a thing like here (compatibility permitting) http://www.thelab.gr/1063176380-post5.html or maybe even something like a numeric keypad instead of the built in keyboard. Though as I've sort of mentioned, these could also be used with Pis though(though I hadn't pointed to any examples of them, so there it is now). > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Cozens > Sent: 02/04/13 01:30 PM > On 13-02-04 12:42 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > That said, I'm hoping to grab one of these > > as a dedicated Pi display. > > That is a much better resolution for a 7" display than the resolution in > the car backup system monitors. The only downside is the price. You > could buy a 23" LCD monitor from Best Buy for the same amount of money. But what about the issue of how the durability of the two types compares? If the whole setup was more compact, it's easily conceivable that people would be doing it more often / more casually. Netbooks at least fold up shielding the monitor automatically, sort of. Of course, if you find it too conveniant to use that netbook for other things, you could end up leaving personal stuff around wherever your LAN gear ends up. Not really the same with a Pi. THAT is one unexpected, inviting advantage of a Pi for gaming, it could be casually packed up more whimsically, not neccessarily just for LAN get togethers but wherever, particularly if the screen(s) is/are already there, especially if it was set up to work with just a gamepad. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 7 14:31:48 2013 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:31:48 -0500 Subject: Bash env issues Message-ID: Morning Came across an odd issue and wonder if someone can explain if its normal. I set my java home on /etc/environment and assumed it should work across accounts. -bash-4.1$ cat /etc/environment JAVA_HOME="/usr/bin/java" When I ssh in, I can see its working when I type env. However, if I "su - jira" to a system account, or even another user account, java home don't show up on env. I am still able to locate java though so may be no a issue when I type Java version. Just got curious why that is the case. Regards William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 7 14:50:58 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:50:58 -0500 Subject: Pine/alpine [was: $35 LAN Party...] In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <510FFE4B.5050807@ve3syb.ca> <20130205192001.GG30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <51124BF2.7050803@gmail.com> <20130206150748.GN30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130207145058.GO30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 05:17:04PM -0500, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > Pine is longer maintained. It is now called alpine, and the license > issues no longer apply. It is still the only mail client I use. I switched to mutt in the late 90s due to bugs in pine at the time. :) I see alpine does exist in debian. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 7 14:52:32 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:52:32 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130206130655.GI19974@adb.ca> Message-ID: <20130207145232.GP30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 05:29:42PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > The "Next Unit of Computing" comes equipped with "Three external USB > 2.0 ports." Seriously? USB3 is readily available and three times as > fast. Accessing a 2TB external HD through a USB2 port is > molasses-in-winter fun. "Next Unit" implies progress, but all that > seems to have changed is the size ... Or, depending on how you look > at it, not even that - this is essentially a fat net-top with a better > chip. USB3 is 10 times the speed of USB2. Your disk of course is nowhere near the speed of USB3 though but is faster than USB2. Remember intel hasn't put USB3 ports in their chips yet. All boards with USB3 I have seen so far use external PCIe chips from other makers (Usually ASMedia). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 7 15:29:38 2013 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 10:29:38 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: <20130207145232.GP30790-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130206130655.GI19974@adb.ca> <20130207145232.GP30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 7 February 2013 09:52, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 05:29:42PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: >> The "Next Unit of Computing" comes equipped with "Three external USB >> 2.0 ports." Seriously? USB3 is readily available and three times as >> fast. Accessing a 2TB external HD through a USB2 port is >> molasses-in-winter fun. "Next Unit" implies progress, but all that >> seems to have changed is the size ... Or, depending on how you look >> at it, not even that - this is essentially a fat net-top with a better >> chip. > > USB3 is 10 times the speed of USB2. Your disk of course is nowhere near > the speed of USB3 though but is faster than USB2. > > Remember intel hasn't put USB3 ports in their chips yet. All boards > with USB3 I have seen so far use external PCIe chips from other makers > (Usually ASMedia). According to Wikipedia's entry on Ivy Bridge, the chipset does include USB3 - and they do make Ivy Bridge i3 chips. The NUC may well use an older i3, but I think it's a poor move to not include USB3 either way. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 7 16:37:33 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:37:33 -0500 Subject: $35 LAN Party... In-Reply-To: References: <20130203004639.261850@gmx.com> <510FEEA2.40403@ve3syb.ca> <20130205014723.GD19974@adb.ca> <20130205151944.GE30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130206130655.GI19974@adb.ca> <20130207145232.GP30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130207163733.GQ30790@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 10:29:38AM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > According to Wikipedia's entry on Ivy Bridge, the chipset does include > USB3 - and they do make Ivy Bridge i3 chips. The NUC may well use an > older i3, but I think it's a poor move to not include USB3 either way. Hmm, so it does. I just checked my Z77 board, and sure enough it has both an intel and an ASMedia USB3 controller (Asus clearly thought 2 ports was not enough). USB3 ports do also require more power than USB2 ports. I suspect the lack of USB3 is because they used the QA77 chipset. I believe only the Z77 has USB3 and that would be overkill for this board. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 7 18:57:37 2013 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 13:57:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bash env issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, William Muriithi wrote: > Morning > > Came across an odd issue and wonder if someone can explain if its normal. > > I set my java home on /etc/environment and assumed it should work across > accounts. > > -bash-4.1$ cat /etc/environment > JAVA_HOME="/usr/bin/java" > > When I ssh in, I can see its working when I type env. However, if I "su - > jira" to a system account, or even another user account, java home don't > show up on env. Bash doesn't source /etc/environment. Put it in /etc/profile. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 8 16:21:27 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 08:21:27 -0800 Subject: Kernel TCP tuning Message-ID: My understanding is that the following setting basically sets the range of high "local ports" used for outgoing connections Either in sysctl.conf /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_local_port_range = LOW HIGH This can also be set by using sysctl or echoing to proc (but lost on reboot). My question is, what would be a symptom of exhausting the port pool? Say if you have a port range of 10001 15000, and you attempt connection #5001... what happens? Is there something visible in dmesg/kern.log/syslog that indicates an error opening ports? Do you see the port opening/connection attempt time out, or just block? I know if you start nipping at the limits of your max filehandles, an kernel error is rather apparent, but I'm not sure what happens for ports. As most people prefer to leave this at the default, there isn't a lot of information other than how to set the port range -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2/DCTS/CLA "Computers don't make mistakes. They can, however, execute those provided to them very quickly" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 8 16:24:00 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 08:24:00 -0800 Subject: Bash env issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about if you use "su -m jira" ? On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:31 AM, William Muriithi wrote: > > Morning > > Came across an odd issue and wonder if someone can explain if its normal. > > I set my java home on /etc/environment and assumed it should work across > accounts. > > -bash-4.1$ cat /etc/environment > JAVA_HOME="/usr/bin/java" > > When I ssh in, I can see its working when I type env. However, if I "su - > jira" to a system account, or even another user account, java home don't > show up on env. > > I am still able to locate java though so may be no a issue when I type > Java version. Just got curious why that is the case. > > Regards > > William > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2/DCTS/CLA "Computers don't make mistakes. They can, however, execute those provided to them very quickly" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 8 22:44:00 2013 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 22:44:00 +0000 Subject: Kernel TCP tuning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What condition do you need to detect? Are you looking to solve/monitor an application or system problem? I expect the kernel would log something but the source our experimentation are the oracles for this as I've never tried it. Also, why would you do this? (For my own curiosity...) Thanks -Ben On Feb 8, 2013 4:21 PM, "Tyler Aviss" wrote: > My understanding is that the following setting basically sets the range of > high "local ports" used for outgoing connections > > Either in sysctl.conf > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_local_port_range = LOW HIGH > > This can also be set by using sysctl or echoing to proc (but lost on > reboot). > > > > My question is, what would be a symptom of exhausting the port pool? > Say if you have a port range of 10001 15000, and you attempt connection > #5001... what happens? > > Is there something visible in dmesg/kern.log/syslog that indicates an > error opening ports? Do you see the port opening/connection attempt time > out, or just block? > > I know if you start nipping at the limits of your max filehandles, an > kernel error is rather apparent, but I'm not sure what happens for ports. > > As most people prefer to leave this at the default, there isn't a lot of > information other than how to set the port range > > > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2/DCTS/CLA > > "Computers don't make mistakes. They can, however, execute those provided > to them very quickly" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 8 23:47:40 2013 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 21:47:40 -0200 Subject: Kernel TCP tuning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can try setting a lower limit, like 5 ports, and using netcat to open 4 connections. Then use strace/ptrace on a curl or wget and see what happens. On Feb 8, 2013 8:45 PM, "Ben Walton" wrote: > What condition do you need to detect? Are you looking to solve/monitor an > application or system problem? I expect the kernel would log something but > the source our experimentation are the oracles for this as I've never tried > it. > > Also, why would you do this? (For my own curiosity...) > > Thanks > -Ben > On Feb 8, 2013 4:21 PM, "Tyler Aviss" wrote: > >> My understanding is that the following setting basically sets the range >> of high "local ports" used for outgoing connections >> >> Either in sysctl.conf >> /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_local_port_range = LOW HIGH >> >> This can also be set by using sysctl or echoing to proc (but lost on >> reboot). >> >> >> >> My question is, what would be a symptom of exhausting the port pool? >> Say if you have a port range of 10001 15000, and you attempt connection >> #5001... what happens? >> >> Is there something visible in dmesg/kern.log/syslog that indicates an >> error opening ports? Do you see the port opening/connection attempt time >> out, or just block? >> >> I know if you start nipping at the limits of your max filehandles, an >> kernel error is rather apparent, but I'm not sure what happens for ports. >> >> As most people prefer to leave this at the default, there isn't a lot of >> information other than how to set the port range >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Tyler Aviss >> Systems Support >> LPIC/LPIC-2/DCTS/CLA >> >> "Computers don't make mistakes. They can, however, execute those provided >> to them very quickly" >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 10 00:56:02 2013 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 19:56:02 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers Message-ID: You are chatting with Tracy.Rogers Live Chat 10:29 PM Connecting... 10:29 PM Connected. A support representative will be with you shortly. 10:29 PM Support session established with Tracy. 10:29 PM Tracy: Hi, you've reached Tracy. How may I help you? 10:30 PM James: Hi. We have Rogers High Speed Express internet and we have received a message that we have hit our bandwidth usage for the month. It says our cap is 60GB but the comparison on your website says it should be 80GB. Why the discrepancy? 10:30 PM Tracy: There is a newer product code for Express which provides 80GB/month of usage, however you are required to have the enhanced home networking gateway modem which is $7/month plus tax to rent as our other modems aren't compatible with this code due to the speed/usage requirements. If you're currently renting either a DOCSIS modem for $4/month plus tax or a home networking gateway modem for $5.50/month plus tax, they are not compatible with this and you would need to exchange your modem for the enhanced home networking gateway modem to receive the code which provides 80GB/month of usage and the faster speed. 10:30 PM Tracy: Do you know if this is the type of modem you currently have? If you're not sure, I can certainly check your account for you. 10:31 PM James: I am pretty sure we have the older modem. 10:31 PM Tracy: You would just need to take your current modem & power cord (if applicable) and exchange it at a Rogers store for the enhanced home networking gateway. Once this is updated on your account, at the same time, they should add the newer product code for Express so that you'll start receiving 80GB/month of usage. You can find your closest location to do so at the following link: 10:31 PM Tracy has sent a link: www.rogers.com/storelocator 10:31 PM James: What if we don't want to pay more for the modem? I have a home network set up that works quite well as it is. 10:33 PM Tracy: Unfortunately without this modem, the current modem isn't compatible with the usage & speed requirements for the newer code with 80GB. I believe you can disable the wireless part of the modem if you prefer to use your own router, etc. Internet technical support would be able to advise you how this can be done. If you wanted to check & see if this would be an option, please follow this link for assistance http://echat.rogers.com, agents are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. 10:34 PM James: I have a Masters degree in computer engineering. I would appreciate it if you could explain to me how a modem is "compatible" with a bandwidth cap. 10:35 PM Tracy: The new bandwidth cap, as well as the higher download/upload speed are both included in the newer product code for this. Unfortunately it's not able to add one without the other. I apologize for the inconvenience. 10:35 PM James: We don't need the higher speeds, just the bandwidth cap that we are paying for. 10:36 PM Tracy: I do understand that, however the 80GB is only included in the code that also provides the faster speeds and cannot be added on it's own unfortunately. There's no way in the system to do so. 10:38 PM James: Perhaps someone should look into that. It appears to me that this is a shameless money grab to get people to pay more for a modem. 10:38 PM Tracy: I can certainly forward your feedback regarding this & apologize for any frustration that this may cause. Were there any other questions you had at this time? 10:39 PM James: Can you suggest another internet provider? 10:39 PM Tracy: I'm sorry to hear you're thinking of cancelling do to this.You would need to call our customer relations department to process a cancellation request. They can be reached at 1-888-764 -3771 and are open 8am-midnight EST Mon-Fri and 8am-9pm Sat & Sun (EST). 10:40 PM James: Thanks *so much* for your help and automated responses. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From maxcess-KK0ffGbhmjU at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 10 04:44:58 2013 From: maxcess-KK0ffGbhmjU at public.gmane.org (Maxcess) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 05:44:58 +0100 Subject: Conversation with Rogers Message-ID: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> Holly Shit! Does Rogers use an AI now!? Tracey's comments are so robotic! Kind Regards >From the office of Abidel (Abby) Bassie-Cripps ----- Original Message ----- From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Sent: 02/09/13 07:56 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Conversation with Rogers You are chatting with Tracy.Rogers Live Chat 10:29 PM Connecting... 10:29 PM Connected. A support representative will be with you shortly. 10:29 PM Support session established with Tracy. 10:29 PM Tracy: Hi, you've reached Tracy. How may I help you? 10:30 PM James: Hi. We have Rogers High Speed Express internet and we have received a message that we have hit our bandwidth usage for the month. It says our cap is 60GB but the comparison on your website says it should be 80GB. Why the discrepancy? 10:30 PM Tracy: There is a newer product code for Express which provides 80GB/month of usage, however you are required to have the enhanced home networking gateway modem which is $7/month plus tax to rent as our other modems aren't compatible with this code due to the speed/usage requirements. If you're currently renting either a DOCSIS modem for $4/month plus tax or a home networking gateway modem for $5.50/month plus tax, they are not compatible with this and you would need to exchange your modem for the enhanced home networking gateway modem to receive the code which provides 80GB/month of usage and the faster speed. 10:30 PM Tracy: Do you know if this is the type of modem you currently have? If you're not sure, I can certainly check your account for you. 10:31 PM James: I am pretty sure we have the older modem. 10:31 PM Tracy: You would just need to take your current modem & power cord (if applicable) and exchange it at a Rogers store for the enhanced home networking gateway. Once this is updated on your account, at the same time, they should add the newer product code for Express so that you'll start receiving 80GB/month of usage. You can find your closest location to do so at the following link: 10:31 PM Tracy has sent a link: www.rogers.com/storelocator 10:31 PM James: What if we don't want to pay more for the modem? I have a home network set up that works quite well as it is. 10:33 PM Tracy: Unfortunately without this modem, the current modem isn't compatible with the usage & speed requirements for the newer code with 80GB. I believe you can disable the wireless part of the modem if you prefer to use your own router, etc. Internet technical support would be able to advise you how this can be done. If you wanted to check & see if this would be an option, please follow this link for assistance http://echat.rogers.com, agents are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. 10:34 PM James: I have a Masters degree in computer engineering. I would appreciate it if you could explain to me how a modem is "compatible" with a bandwidth cap. 10:35 PM Tracy: The new bandwidth cap, as well as the higher download/upload speed are both included in the newer product code for this. Unfortunately it's not able to add one without the other. I apologize for the inconvenience. 10:35 PM James: We don't need the higher speeds, just the bandwidth cap that we are paying for. 10:36 PM Tracy: I do understand that, however the 80GB is only included in the code that also provides the faster speeds and cannot be added on it's own unfortunately. There's no way in the system to do so. 10:38 PM James: Perhaps someone should look into that. It appears to me that this is a shameless money grab to get people to pay more for a modem. 10:38 PM Tracy: I can certainly forward your feedback regarding this & apologize for any frustration that this may cause. Were there any other questions you had at this time? 10:39 PM James: Can you suggest another internet provider? 10:39 PM Tracy: I'm sorry to hear you're thinking of cancelling do to this.You would need to call our customer relations department to process a cancellation request. They can be reached at 1-888-764 -3771 and are open 8am-midnight EST Mon-Fri and 8am-9pm Sat & Sun (EST). 10:40 PM James: Thanks *so much* for your help and automated responses. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 10 05:32:04 2013 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 00:32:04 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: <20130210044458.74600-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org> References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> Message-ID: On 9 Feb 2013 23:46, "Maxcess" wrote: > > Holly Shit! > Does Rogers use an AI now!? > Tracey's comments are so robotic! > Its borderline intelligent too. Could be a person or a very smart robot. Problem is support people work with script too often that they can sound robotic too. But the fact they suggested you call point to a robot serving you. I used to be with Rogers and capped at 40 GB. One month, we maxed it and my bill almost doubled. I called and they said they had a deal for better cap. They though put me in a 2 year contract without telling me. I had never been on contract and pay for modem upfront. Two months later, some of their marketer called and revealed I am on contract. I was so pissed off I cancelled then and there. They asked me to pay for the month I was over quota and I obliged. Now with techsavvy, same monthly bill, faster download steep and 300 GB limit. Couldn't have worked any better! I knew about techsavvy for years but too lazy to make a switch till that day. May be you could do the same too:) William > Kind Regards > > From the office of Abidel (Abby) Bassie-Cripps > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org >> >> Sent: 02/09/13 07:56 PM >> >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> >> Subject: [TLUG]: Conversation with Rogers >> >> >> >> You are chatting with Tracy.Rogers Live Chat >> 10:29 PM Connecting... >> 10:29 PM Connected. A support representative will be with you shortly. >> 10:29 PM Support session established with Tracy. >> 10:29 PM Tracy: >> Hi, you've reached Tracy. How may I help you? >> 10:30 PM James: >> Hi. We have Rogers High Speed Express internet and we have received a >> message that we have hit our bandwidth usage for the month. It says >> our cap is 60GB but the comparison on your website says it should be >> 80GB. Why the discrepancy? >> 10:30 PM Tracy: >> There is a newer product code for Express which provides 80GB/month of >> usage, however you are required to have the enhanced home networking >> gateway modem which is $7/month plus tax to rent as our other modems >> aren't compatible with this code due to the speed/usage requirements. >> If you're currently renting either a DOCSIS modem for $4/month plus >> tax or a home networking gateway modem for $5.50/month plus tax, they >> are not compatible with this and you would need to exchange your modem >> for the enhanced home networking gateway modem to receive the code >> which provides 80GB/month of usage and the faster speed. >> 10:30 PM Tracy: >> Do you know if this is the type of modem you currently have? If you're >> not sure, I can certainly check your account for you. >> 10:31 PM James: >> I am pretty sure we have the older modem. >> 10:31 PM Tracy: >> You would just need to take your current modem & power cord (if >> applicable) and exchange it at a Rogers store for the enhanced home >> networking gateway. Once this is updated on your account, at the same >> time, they should add the newer product code for Express so that >> you'll start receiving 80GB/month of usage. You can find your closest >> location to do so at the following link: >> 10:31 PM Tracy has sent a link: www.rogers.com/storelocator >> 10:31 PM James: >> What if we don't want to pay more for the modem? I have a home network >> set up that works quite well as it is. >> 10:33 PM Tracy: >> Unfortunately without this modem, the current modem isn't compatible >> with the usage & speed requirements for the newer code with 80GB. I >> believe you can disable the wireless part of the modem if you prefer >> to use your own router, etc. Internet technical support would be able >> to advise you how this can be done. If you wanted to check & see if >> this would be an option, please follow this link for assistance >> http://echat.rogers.com, agents are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a >> week. >> 10:34 PM James: >> I have a Masters degree in computer engineering. I would appreciate it >> if you could explain to me how a modem is "compatible" with a >> bandwidth cap. >> 10:35 PM Tracy: >> The new bandwidth cap, as well as the higher download/upload speed are >> both included in the newer product code for this. Unfortunately it's >> not able to add one without the other. I apologize for the >> inconvenience. >> 10:35 PM James: >> We don't need the higher speeds, just the bandwidth cap that we are paying >> for. >> 10:36 PM Tracy: >> I do understand that, however the 80GB is only included in the code >> that also provides the faster speeds and cannot be added on it's own >> unfortunately. There's no way in the system to do so. >> 10:38 PM James: >> Perhaps someone should look into that. It appears to me that this is a >> shameless money grab to get people to pay more for a modem. >> 10:38 PM Tracy: >> I can certainly forward your feedback regarding this & apologize for >> any frustration that this may cause. Were there any other questions >> you had at this time? >> 10:39 PM James: >> Can you suggest another internet provider? >> 10:39 PM Tracy: >> I'm sorry to hear you're thinking of cancelling do to this.You would >> need to call our customer relations department to process a >> cancellation request. They can be reached at 1-888-764 -3771 and are >> open 8am-midnight EST Mon-Fri and 8am-9pm Sat & Sun (EST). >> 10:40 PM James: >> Thanks *so much* for your help and automated responses. >> >> >> -- >> Peter Hiscocks >> Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto >> http://www.syscompdesign.com >> USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator >> 647-839-0325 >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 10 13:11:34 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 08:11:34 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: <20130210044458.74600-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org> References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> Message-ID: <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> Maxcess wrote: > Holly Shit! > Does Rogers use an AI now!? > Tracey's comments are so robotic! I find they're not allowed to deviate from the official line. I have been using SSL/TLS with them for quite a while. I recently discovered that the Yahoo digital certificate (Rogers uses Yahoo for email) had expired, which causes a warning message when I tried to send an email. While I allowed the exception, I first tried to report this via Yahoo, but Rogers customers are supposed to go through Rogers support. They insisted that SSL/TLS was not supported. When I pointed out that such a policy would leave customers using public WiFi hot spots vulnerable to snooping they insisted that plain SMTP was all they support. In the end, I wound up opening a Yahoo account and reporting the issue that way and the certificate was updated within a few days. In general, I find Rogers support to be OK and much better than Bell, but some times they get stuck on bad policy, instead of providing appropriate support. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From maxcess-KK0ffGbhmjU at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 10 14:32:02 2013 From: maxcess-KK0ffGbhmjU at public.gmane.org (Maxcess) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 09:32:02 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers Message-ID: <20130210143202.162920@gmx.com> Hello William and James I was being silling with my own comments about "AI & Robotics" I too have used Bell & Rogers in the past and never like the customer support or pricing structures. That is why I am with Teksavvy now. Let them deal with the B.S. I apperciate the human interation & pricing sturture, I get from Teksavvy. Abby ----- Original Message ----- From: James Knott Sent: 02/10/13 08:11 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Conversation with Rogers Maxcess wrote: > Holly Shit! > Does Rogers use an AI now!? > Tracey's comments are so robotic! I find they're not allowed to deviate from the official line. I have been using SSL/TLS with them for quite a while. I recently discovered that the Yahoo digital certificate (Rogers uses Yahoo for email) had expired, which causes a warning message when I tried to send an email. While I allowed the exception, I first tried to report this via Yahoo, but Rogers customers are supposed to go through Rogers support. They insisted that SSL/TLS was not supported. When I pointed out that such a policy would leave customers using public WiFi hot spots vulnerable to snooping they insisted that plain SMTP was all they support. In the end, I wound up opening a Yahoo account and reporting the issue that way and the certificate was updated within a few days. In general, I find Rogers support to be OK and much better than Bell, but some times they get stuck on bad policy, instead of providing appropriate support. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 10 20:39:04 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:39:04 -0500 Subject: Found a replacement power supply ? Message-ID: <51180568.2040508@ve3syb.ca> Greetings, all. For those that remember, my desktop power supply seems to have died and I am looking for a replacement with a higher wattage than the original. I can't turn on my desktop any more so I am unable to reply directly to those who had commented and/or provided info regarding my search. Thank you for those that replied. I want to get the supply from Best Buy as I can easily walk over there to return a supply if it turns out it isn't suitable or goes bad. Other suppliers would mean getting someone to drive me back to a store or pay to have item mailed back. I eliminated the supplies for which I could find no detailed specifications, that were less than 80% efficient, or did not have at least 19A on the +12V rail (as recommended by the video card I'm using). Detailed reviews on some of the remaining choices has also not been easy, if any were found. I was down to two power supplies: Antec EarthWatts 650 Green (EA650), or the Corsair TX650 (CMPSU-650TXV2). They are close in price and each near the limit of what I wanted to spend. I just discovered Best Buy now has the Corsair CX600M (CP-9020060-NA) available for a few dollars less. Some reviews mentioning short life of the Antec pushed me towards the Corsair TX650, despite a common issue it has with fan noise, but now I'm thinking of going with the CX600M. The CX600M is 50W less but that won't make a difference as the original supply was only 300W and being modular solves the issue of trying to stuff all the power supply cables in to a mid-size tower box. There are only has 3 SATA connectors which I will use for the pair of HD's and I can use adapters (possibly from the original supply) to convert Molex (peripheral) connectors to SATA for the two DVD drives. The only nagging concern is the video I saw of a CX600 (non-modular) that let out copious amounts of "magic smoke" when it died while idling. The CX600M likely to have the same basic guts as the CX600. Videos of supplies tested to failure have not died in such a fashion. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 01:33:10 2013 From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 20:33:10 -0500 Subject: Found a replacement power supply ? Message-ID: <20130211013311.220150@gmx.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Cozens > Sent: 02/10/13 03:39 PM > > Greetings, all. > > For those that remember, my desktop power supply seems to have died and > I am looking for a replacement with a higher wattage than the original. > I can't turn on my desktop any more so I am unable to reply directly to > those who had commented and/or provided info regarding my search. > > Thank you for those that replied. I want to get the supply from Best Buy > as I can easily walk over there to return a supply if it turns out it > isn't suitable or goes bad. Other suppliers would mean getting someone > to drive me back to a store or pay to have item mailed back. > > I eliminated the supplies for which I could find no detailed > specifications, that were less than 80% efficient, or did not have at > least 19A on the +12V rail (as recommended by the video card I'm using). > Detailed reviews on some of the remaining choices has also not been > easy, if any were found. > > I was down to two power supplies: Antec EarthWatts 650 Green (EA650), or > the Corsair TX650 (CMPSU-650TXV2). They are close in price and each near > the limit of what I wanted to spend. I just discovered Best Buy now has > the Corsair CX600M (CP-9020060-NA) available for a few dollars less. > Some reviews mentioning short life of the Antec pushed me towards the > Corsair TX650, despite a common issue it has with fan noise, but now I'm > thinking of going with the CX600M. > > The CX600M is 50W less but that won't make a difference as the original > supply was only 300W and being modular solves the issue of trying to > stuff all the power supply cables in to a mid-size tower box. There are > only has 3 SATA connectors which I will use for the pair of HD's and I > can use adapters (possibly from the original supply) to convert Molex > (peripheral) connectors to SATA for the two DVD drives. > > The only nagging concern is the video I saw of a CX600 (non-modular) > that let out copious amounts of "magic smoke" when it died while idling. > The CX600M likely to have the same basic guts as the CX600. Videos of > supplies tested to failure have not died in such a fashion. The TX650 is made by seasonic. The CX600 and CX600M are apparently made by channel well. I believe you've heard about the differences/uninterchangeability of completely different products by the same distributor/brand. If you insist on sticking with best buy, and are okay with taking a risk with the quality anyway, you might want to look at the antec basiq 350W (BP350) , it has 23A on the pair of 12V rails. Even if it's not 80plus certified, it probably won't be much less efficient, due to not being so deep in the unloaded end of the efficiency curve most of the time. The basiq series are made by Fortron, so it shouldn't be all that dangerous, not like getting a 400 wat generic. Though a basiq bp430 would probably be a better option, if you could get one. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 09:12:32 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 04:12:32 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: <51179C86.5070902-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi James, Which mailer (sendmail or postfix) are you using, and how did you set it up to use SSL/TLS? I'm using Yahoo as mail relay (SMART_HOST in sendmail) using port 25. But, not sure how long they are going to keep that open. -- William On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 08:11:34AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Maxcess wrote: > >Holly Shit! > >Does Rogers use an AI now!? > >Tracey's comments are so robotic! > > I find they're not allowed to deviate from the official line. I > have been using SSL/TLS with them for quite a while. I recently > discovered that the Yahoo digital certificate (Rogers uses Yahoo for > email) had expired, which causes a warning message when I tried to > send an email. While I allowed the exception, I first tried to > report this via Yahoo, but Rogers customers are supposed to go > through Rogers support. They insisted that SSL/TLS was not > supported. When I pointed out that such a policy would leave > customers using public WiFi hot spots vulnerable to snooping they > insisted that plain SMTP was all they support. In the end, I wound > up opening a Yahoo account and reporting the issue that way and the > certificate was updated within a few days. > > > In general, I find Rogers support to be OK and much better than > Bell, but some times they get stuck on bad policy, instead of > providing appropriate support. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 12:44:24 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 07:44:24 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: <20130211091232.GA5289-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <5118E7A8.3010702@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > Which mailer (sendmail or postfix) are you using, and how did you set it > up to use SSL/TLS? I'm using Yahoo as mail relay (SMART_HOST in > sendmail) using port 25. But, not sure how long they are going to keep > that open. I use Seamonkey for email and also use fetchmail to download my incoming mail to my own imap server. I use the Yahoo SMTP server for outgoing. Yahoo supports ports 487, IIRC, as a replacement for 25 and 465 for smtp on SSL/TLS. The same ports work for Rogers, but you'll get a name mismatch on the digital certificates. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 13:32:47 2013 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 08:32:47 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: <5118E7A8.3010702-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> <5118E7A8.3010702@rogers.com> Message-ID: Regarding their requirement for a modem. I have two thoughts. 1) It may be possible they they are compressing data.... and the modem really is part of the compression. 2) if the above isn't true then the way to go after them is for misleading advertising. They are saying you get 80G for the same price, but have to buy a modem for more money Dave Cramer On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:44 AM, James Knott wrote: > William Park wrote: > >> Which mailer (sendmail or postfix) are you using, and how did you set it >> up to use SSL/TLS? I'm using Yahoo as mail relay (SMART_HOST in >> sendmail) using port 25. But, not sure how long they are going to keep >> that open. >> > > I use Seamonkey for email and also use fetchmail to download my incoming > mail to my own imap server. I use the Yahoo SMTP server for outgoing. > Yahoo supports ports 487, IIRC, as a replacement for 25 and 465 for smtp > on SSL/TLS. The same ports work for Rogers, but you'll get a name mismatch > on the digital certificates. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 13:39:13 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 08:39:13 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> <5118E7A8.3010702@rogers.com> Message-ID: <5118F481.2040203@rogers.com> Dave Cramer wrote: > 1) It may be possible they they are compressing data.... and the modem > really is part of the compression. Not likely. The Internet is not compressed, so they'd have to compress and then uncompress all that data. One reason they may want DOCSIS 3 modems is IPv6 management. While DOCSIS 2 modems can carry IPv6, they generally have IPv4 only management. Comcast, in the U.S. is switching it's entire network to IPv6, as they can't manage it with IPv4, without segmenting the network, as there aren't enough RFC 1918 IPv4 addresses to do otherwise. They're also using 4in6 tunnels and large scale NAT to provide IPv4 service to their customers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mikemacleod-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 14:18:34 2013 From: mikemacleod-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael MacLeod) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:18:34 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> <5118E7A8.3010702@rogers.com> Message-ID: Is it possible to go over you 60GB cap with the old modem and hit 80GB of data in a month? I suspect it is. And I highly doubt Rogers is doing compression - it's cheaper to just increase the size of the pipe than to throw compute for the purposes of compression at the problem. This is just a money grab, and a reminder of why I'm with TekSavvy. On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Dave Cramer wrote: > Regarding their requirement for a modem. I have two thoughts. > > 1) It may be possible they they are compressing data.... and the modem > really is part of the compression. > 2) if the above isn't true then the way to go after them is for > misleading advertising. They are saying you get 80G for the same price, but > have to buy a modem for more money > > Dave Cramer > > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:44 AM, James Knott wrote: > >> William Park wrote: >> >>> Which mailer (sendmail or postfix) are you using, and how did you set it >>> up to use SSL/TLS? I'm using Yahoo as mail relay (SMART_HOST in >>> sendmail) using port 25. But, not sure how long they are going to keep >>> that open. >>> >> >> I use Seamonkey for email and also use fetchmail to download my incoming >> mail to my own imap server. I use the Yahoo SMTP server for outgoing. >> Yahoo supports ports 487, IIRC, as a replacement for 25 and 465 for smtp >> on SSL/TLS. The same ports work for Rogers, but you'll get a name mismatch >> on the digital certificates. >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 14:25:19 2013 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:25:19 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> <5118E7A8.3010702@rogers.com> Message-ID: So then the real way to get these guys is with misleading adv. This is not the first time they have done it, and they have had their hands slapped before. Dave Cramer On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Michael MacLeod wrote: > Is it possible to go over you 60GB cap with the old modem and hit 80GB of > data in a month? I suspect it is. And I highly doubt Rogers is doing > compression - it's cheaper to just increase the size of the pipe than to > throw compute for the purposes of compression at the problem. > > This is just a money grab, and a reminder of why I'm with TekSavvy. > > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Dave Cramer wrote: > >> Regarding their requirement for a modem. I have two thoughts. >> >> 1) It may be possible they they are compressing data.... and the modem >> really is part of the compression. >> 2) if the above isn't true then the way to go after them is for >> misleading advertising. They are saying you get 80G for the same price, but >> have to buy a modem for more money >> >> Dave Cramer >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:44 AM, James Knott wrote: >> >>> William Park wrote: >>> >>>> Which mailer (sendmail or postfix) are you using, and how did you set it >>>> up to use SSL/TLS? I'm using Yahoo as mail relay (SMART_HOST in >>>> sendmail) using port 25. But, not sure how long they are going to keep >>>> that open. >>>> >>> >>> I use Seamonkey for email and also use fetchmail to download my incoming >>> mail to my own imap server. I use the Yahoo SMTP server for outgoing. >>> Yahoo supports ports 487, IIRC, as a replacement for 25 and 465 for smtp >>> on SSL/TLS. The same ports work for Rogers, but you'll get a name mismatch >>> on the digital certificates. >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 15:38:19 2013 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 10:38:19 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu Network Restart Required with Rogers (?) and Setting Modem Password Message-ID: <5119106B.2090509@rogers.com> I have the Cisco DPC3825 modem/router. Three times in the last week, "something" happened, and networking hung on my Ubuntu system. The modem lights went a bit crazy and seemed to recycle. I did not have to reset networking on my Laptop that runs Windows 7, but while the modem was funky I could not access email. Any thoughts on this? A bit of a worry is that I tried to access the modem control panel using my browser. I could not log in, despite my browser populating the credentials automatically. The account id was "admin". I called Rogers tech support and they advised that the admin id was "cusadmin". And they told me the default password, which worked. WTF? I can't say for certain that I failed to change the default password, but I am pretty good at doing so. I tried to change the default password for "cusadmin" but when I saved I was prompted asking if I wanted to change the password for "admin" or for "<>". WTF? I Googled a bit and found reference to a super admin credential that Rogers keep to itself. But nothing all that clear. I am guessing that Rogers "upgraded" the firmware to my modem without my knowledge. Can anyone shed some light on this? Especially changing the password. Thanks! -- Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 15:48:58 2013 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 10:48:58 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu Network Restart Required with Rogers (?) and Setting Modem Password In-Reply-To: <5119106B.2090509-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5119106B.2090509@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20130211154858.GA31479@watson-wilson.ca> I do not trust any ISP to manage gear for me. I had Roger configure the router to only function as a modem. I run my owner router behind it. I do not user their DNS servers. I'm even toying with tunneling all traffic via VPN to a gateway elsewhere. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 16:09:52 2013 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:09:52 +0000 Subject: Ubuntu Network Restart Required with Rogers (?) and Setting Modem Password In-Reply-To: <20130211154858.GA31479-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <5119106B.2090509@rogers.com> <20130211154858.GA31479@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > I do not trust any ISP to manage gear for me. I had Roger configure the > router to only function as a modem. I run my owner router behind it. I > do not user their DNS servers. I'm even toying with tunneling all > traffic via VPN to a gateway elsewhere. This is my recommendation too. You'll find that the wifi strenght in many of these ISP devices is weak compared to CotS stuff you can buy for low prices. I haven't gone so far as to tunnel out of the ISP network but I'd never rely on their DNS (often filtered/crippled) or mail offereing. All I want from them is a bit pipe. :) Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 17:32:41 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 12:32:41 -0500 Subject: Found a replacement power supply ? In-Reply-To: <51180568.2040508-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <51180568.2040508@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20130211173241.GA20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 03:39:04PM -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote: > Greetings, all. > > For those that remember, my desktop power supply seems to have died > and I am looking for a replacement with a higher wattage than the > original. I can't turn on my desktop any more so I am unable to > reply directly to those who had commented and/or provided info > regarding my search. > > Thank you for those that replied. I want to get the supply from Best > Buy as I can easily walk over there to return a supply if it turns > out it isn't suitable or goes bad. Other suppliers would mean > getting someone to drive me back to a store or pay to have item > mailed back. > > I eliminated the supplies for which I could find no detailed > specifications, that were less than 80% efficient, or did not have > at least 19A on the +12V rail (as recommended by the video card I'm > using). Detailed reviews on some of the remaining choices has also > not been easy, if any were found. > > I was down to two power supplies: Antec EarthWatts 650 Green > (EA650), or the Corsair TX650 (CMPSU-650TXV2). They are close in > price and each near the limit of what I wanted to spend. I just > discovered Best Buy now has the Corsair CX600M (CP-9020060-NA) > available for a few dollars less. Some reviews mentioning short life > of the Antec pushed me towards the Corsair TX650, despite a common > issue it has with fan noise, but now I'm thinking of going with the > CX600M. > > The CX600M is 50W less but that won't make a difference as the > original supply was only 300W and being modular solves the issue of > trying to stuff all the power supply cables in to a mid-size tower > box. There are only has 3 SATA connectors which I will use for the > pair of HD's and I can use adapters (possibly from the original > supply) to convert Molex (peripheral) connectors to SATA for the two > DVD drives. > > The only nagging concern is the video I saw of a CX600 (non-modular) > that let out copious amounts of "magic smoke" when it died while > idling. The CX600M likely to have the same basic guts as the CX600. > Videos of supplies tested to failure have not died in such a > fashion. I seem to remember reading that the TX650 isn't that good (at least the model made a few years ago wasn't), unlike the TX750, 850 and 1000 (which are similar and made by a different maker than the 650). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 20:54:09 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 15:54:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ubuntu Network Restart Required with Rogers (?) and Setting Modem Password In-Reply-To: <20130211154858.GA31479-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <5119106B.2090509@rogers.com> <20130211154858.GA31479@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: | From: Neil Watson | I do not trust any ISP to manage gear for me. Cannot always be avoided. I have a VDSL2 modem. It gets firmware updates (and who knows what else) pushed by the ISP. Same as Rogers modems. If they push firmware, they've got a lot of control. | I had Roger configure the | router to only function as a modem. Do you actually have to have Rogers do that? I didn't (with my DOCSIS 2 (i.e. old)) modem. Or with my sequence of ADSL and VDSL2 modems. Too bad that the wireless portion (if any) goes to waste or worse (i.e. becomes a security hole). Bell forced my ISP to force me to rent a VDSL2 modem with wireless (and bugs). BTW, Rogers keeps changing the deals underneath me. Without informing me to my satisfaction. I bought my modem from Rogers because they said that I'd get "Extreme" service at no additional cost over the lower tier if I did so. I think that they forgot that promise. Furthermore, I think that I'm paying for more speed than my modem can deliver. They haven't told me that. When a Rogers sales person phoned to review my account, they could not answer questions about that. | I run my owner router behind it. Me too. | I | do not user their DNS servers. Me too. A few weeks ago, Rogers DNS server went down for an evening. Everyone was upset. Made the papers. I only knew by reading online complaints because I do my own DNS. | I'm even toying with tunneling all | traffic via VPN to a gateway elsewhere. I tunnel some traffic. One reason: Rogers blocks outgoing Port 25. The other end of my tunnel is in Amsterdam, but I don't seem to need to put extra stamps on my mail. I only use that mail server when my DSL gateway isn't working. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 21:30:24 2013 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:30:24 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu Network Restart Required with Rogers (?) and Setting Modem Password In-Reply-To: References: <5119106B.2090509@rogers.com> <20130211154858.GA31479@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <511962F0.2010204@sobac.com> This seems timely: https://www.eviscerati.org/comics/comic/hd/2013/02/Its-Modem ===== CUSTOMER: I'm having a problem with my DSL access. I can't seem to-- ALEX: --it's the modem, sir. CUSTOMER: Wait, I don't think it's the modem, because I can still-- ALEX: --it's the modem. CUSTOMER: Look, I'm telling you-- ALEX: --sir, if you really want, I'll be happy to go through all the tests that I'm required to put you through, including all the tests you've already done, and including the tests that will insult your intelligence because that's exactly what they're designed to do. After that I'll probably escalate you to your advanced tech support line, and whoever gets the call will force you to repeat all those tests, and will then run a few more that are just as idiotic, frustrating, insulting, and time-consuming. ALEX: After that, regardless of what we find, we'll recommend you upgrade your modem to our newest model. Once you receive that modem, there is a 99% chance that your DSL service will be restored, regardless of what the actual problem was to begin with. (Silence.) CUSTOMER: I think I'd like to upgrade my modem now. ALEX: I'll transfer you to sales. Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Phone: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cell: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From maxcess-KK0ffGbhmjU at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 22:03:06 2013 From: maxcess-KK0ffGbhmjU at public.gmane.org (Maxcess) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 23:03:06 +0100 Subject: Ubuntu Network Restart Required with Rogers (?) and Setting Modem Password Message-ID: <20130211220307.74590@gmx.com> Hello Stephen Wow, you got a lot of good replies on this. I to had many of the similar issues. To me, why have an extra router when I am renting one. But their control is the issue for me. I fought to much with Rogers and Teksavvy over the control issues of the combined modem & router issues. I gave in and bridged the units to my own router. Also, staying with Teksavvy for the better customer service. Problem solved! Kind Regards >From the office of Abidel (Abby) Bassie-Cripps Max International Associate Office: 905 790 5627 Cell: 416 799 3969 Skype: abbymaxcess Facebook: abidel.bassiecripps Twitter: AbidelBC LinkedIn: abidel-bassie-cripps Brampton, Ontario, Canada Happy Max Discovery! Start Growing your Business by Inviting Your people to visit my Generic Web Site at: http://maxcess.info Your Future is Fueled by Max! My other part time effort is with NUTHY.ca for all your computer & web needs! ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Sent: 02/11/13 10:38 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Ubuntu Network Restart Required with Rogers (?) and Setting Modem Password I have the Cisco DPC3825 modem/router. Three times in the last week, "something" happened, and networking hung on my Ubuntu system. The modem lights went a bit crazy and seemed to recycle. I did not have to reset networking on my Laptop that runs Windows 7, but while the modem was funky I could not access email. Any thoughts on this? A bit of a worry is that I tried to access the modem control panel using my browser. I could not log in, despite my browser populating the credentials automatically. The account id was "admin". I called Rogers tech support and they advised that the admin id was "cusadmin". And they told me the default password, which worked. WTF? I can't say for certain that I failed to change the default password, but I am pretty good at doing so. I tried to change the default password for "cusadmin" but when I saved I was prompted asking if I wanted to change the password for "admin" or for "<>". WTF? I Googled a bit and found reference to a super admin credential that Rogers keep to itself. But nothing all that clear. I am guessing that Rogers "upgraded" the firmware to my modem without my knowledge. Can anyone shed some light on this? Especially changing the password. Thanks! -- Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 22:35:48 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:35:48 -0500 Subject: Death of C-30, Good Stuff? Message-ID: The bill is evidently dead, not to be brought back. Is this an actual win, or just an apparent one? http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/11/conservatives-kill-controversial-internet-surveillance-bill/ -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 11 22:41:20 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:41:20 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu Network Restart Required with Rogers (?) and Setting Modem Password In-Reply-To: References: <5119106B.2090509@rogers.com> <20130211154858.GA31479@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20130211224120.GB20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 03:54:09PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Do you actually have to have Rogers do that? I didn't (with my DOCSIS > 2 (i.e. old)) modem. Or with my sequence of ADSL and VDSL2 modems. > Too bad that the wireless portion (if any) goes to waste or worse (i.e. > becomes a security hole). > > Bell forced my ISP to force me to rent a VDSL2 modem with wireless > (and bugs). I run my VDSL2 modem with wifi turned off, and in PPPoE bypass mode. My router does the PPPoE instead. > BTW, Rogers keeps changing the deals underneath me. Without informing > me to my satisfaction. They might send an email to your rogers yahoo mail account. > I bought my modem from Rogers because they said that I'd get "Extreme" > service at no additional cost over the lower tier if I did so. I > think that they forgot that promise. > > Furthermore, I think that I'm paying for more speed than my modem > can deliver. They haven't told me that. When a Rogers sales person > phoned to review my account, they could not answer questions about > that. I did that deal years ago, and the service you get is in fact different than the service people would get with a newer modem. With the old modem you are limited to 10Mbps, but your quota is 95GB. With the newer modem you get 15Mbps or something like that, but only 60GB transfer quota. Price is the same either way and both are named Extreme. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 12 19:02:50 2013 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:02:50 -0500 Subject: Death of C-30, Good Stuff? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130212190250.GA10773@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 05:35:48PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote > The bill is evidently dead, not to be brought back. Is this an actual > win, or just an apparent one? > > http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/11/conservatives-kill-controversial-internet-surveillance-bill/ While the current bill is dead, I expect its provisions to be re-introduced piecemeal in other bills. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 12 19:07:13 2013 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:07:13 -0500 Subject: Death of C-30, Good Stuff? In-Reply-To: <20130212190250.GA10773-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130212190250.GA10773@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20130212190713.GA7150@watson-wilson.ca> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 02:02:50PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: >> http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/11/conservatives-kill-controversial-internet-surveillance-bill/ > > While the current bill is dead, I expect its provisions to be >re-introduced piecemeal in other bills. The Harper government often buries these things in large omnibus bills. A VPN connection to a foreign IP address is still a safe bet. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 13 21:26:47 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:26:47 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> <5118E7A8.3010702@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20130213212647.GC20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 08:32:47AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: > Regarding their requirement for a modem. I have two thoughts. > > 1) It may be possible they they are compressing data.... and the modem > really is part of the compression. No docsis 3.0 modems can use multiple channels at once. Docsis 2.0 modems can only use one channel. This limits the speed based on the channel sizes available. > 2) if the above isn't true then the way to go after them is for misleading > advertising. They are saying you get 80G for the same price, but have to > buy a modem for more money Well I know I had a cap of 95GB/month with my own modem on rogers with the extreme service, while those with new modems and the higher speed got 80GB/month. I guess my cap was an old code you couldn't get anymore, but I still had it because it was an existing setup. At least that made more sense. More speed or more data but same price. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 13 22:21:03 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:21:03 -0500 Subject: Found a replacement power supply ? In-Reply-To: <20130211173241.GA20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <51180568.2040508@ve3syb.ca> <20130211173241.GA20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <511C11CF.7040800@ve3syb.ca> On 13-02-11 12:32 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I seem to remember reading that the TX650 isn't that good (at least > the model made a few years ago wasn't), unlike the TX750, 850 and 1000 > (which are similar and made by a different maker than the 650). That might have been the original version of the TX650 (made by Channel Well from what I've read). What I'm considering is the TX650 V2 model. The more I try dig for detailed technical review of power supplies the more often I can find at least a couple of people saying they have had problems with a particular supply. Seems as if there are no supplies that haven't given trouble to someone and the Internet just makes it easier to hear of those issues. I try to discount or ignore messages about problems that are from several years ago. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 13 22:24:15 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:24:15 -0500 Subject: Found a replacement power supply ? In-Reply-To: <20130211013311.220150-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org> References: <20130211013311.220150@gmx.com> Message-ID: <511C128F.1060200@ve3syb.ca> On 13-02-10 08:33 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: > The TX650 is made by seasonic. The CX600 and CX600M are apparently > made by channel well. Correct. I found a web page that lists who actually makes the supplies sold under different brand names. > I believe you've heard about the differences/uninterchangeability of > completely different products by the same distributor/brand. I know the name on the box doesn't indicate who actually made the supply. Other than that, I don't know what what you are trying to say. > If you insist on sticking with best buy, and are okay with taking a > risk with the quality anyway, you might want to look at the antec > basiq 350W (BP350) , it has 23A on the pair of 12V rails. Even if > it's not 80plus certified, it probably won't be much less efficient, I previously stated my reasons for using Best Buy which has nothing to do with taking a risk. If I really wanted to take a risk I would just gone to my local outlet of Best Buy and picked up either the Dynex or RocketFish supply they have available. Since I'm going to change the supply I want to make sure it can handle the two built-in HD's and a removable one all at the same time and also allow me to use higher end video cards in the future. I also want an 80%+ supply as my machine gets a lot of use. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 13 22:41:34 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:41:34 -0500 Subject: Found a replacement power supply ? In-Reply-To: <511C11CF.7040800-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <51180568.2040508@ve3syb.ca> <20130211173241.GA20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <511C11CF.7040800@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20130213224134.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 05:21:03PM -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote: > That might have been the original version of the TX650 (made by > Channel Well from what I've read). What I'm considering is the TX650 > V2 model. OK, that would be different then. > The more I try dig for detailed technical review of power supplies > the more often I can find at least a couple of people saying they > have had problems with a particular supply. Seems as if there are no > supplies that haven't given trouble to someone and the Internet just > makes it easier to hear of those issues. I try to discount or ignore > messages about problems that are from several years ago. I have had good luck only buying what hardwaresecrets.com has given an award in a review. Going by brand, series or anything else doesn't work since they don't make them themselves and different sizes in a given series can be totally different. About all you can be sure of is that if it has no name at all, it is a piece of junk. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 14 02:29:42 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:29:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: <20130213212647.GC20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> <5118E7A8.3010702@rogers.com> <20130213212647.GC20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 08:32:47AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: | > Regarding their requirement for a modem. I have two thoughts. | > | > 1) It may be possible they they are compressing data.... and the modem | > really is part of the compression. | | No docsis 3.0 modems can use multiple channels at once. That's ambiguous. I think you mean: That is not the case. DOCSIS(R) 3.0 modems can use multiple channels at once. not DOCSIS(R) 3.0 modems cannot use multiple channels at once. | Docsis 2.0 | modems can only use one channel. This limits the speed based on the | channel sizes available. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 14 05:29:04 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:29:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: "Chow, Chislon" | Just read this and thought it deserves some attention: | H-Online article: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops | http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Booting-Linux-using-UEFI-can-brick-Samsung-laptops-1793958.html | | Quote | "Linux and Bricks Booting Linux using UEFI just once on various | Samsung laptops is enough to permanently stop them working.... the | problem is likely to also be present in other Linux distributions, as | it appears to be caused by a kernel driver for Samsung laptops. Kernel | developers are currently discussing a change which would disable the | driver when booting via UEFI." It turns out that the problem is not just with Linux. This blog entry is an interesting and informative update: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 14 15:27:10 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:27:10 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> <5118E7A8.3010702@rogers.com> <20130213212647.GC20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130214152710.GE20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 09:29:42PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Lennart Sorensen > > | On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 08:32:47AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: > | > Regarding their requirement for a modem. I have two thoughts. > | > > | > 1) It may be possible they they are compressing data.... and the modem > | > really is part of the compression. > | > | No docsis 3.0 modems can use multiple channels at once. > > That's ambiguous. I think you mean: > That is not the case. DOCSIS(R) 3.0 modems can use multiple > channels at once. That's the one. > not > DOCSIS(R) 3.0 modems cannot use multiple channels at once. > I meant to write: "No, docsis 3.0 modems can use multiple channels at once." > | Docsis 2.0 > | modems can only use one channel. This limits the speed based on the > | channel sizes available. It could have been clearer that's for sure. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 14 15:28:22 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:28:22 -0500 Subject: Booting Linux using UEFI can brick Samsung laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130214152822.GF20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:29:04AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > It turns out that the problem is not just with Linux. This blog entry > is an interesting and informative update: > > Anyone that had any clue about firmware already knew it wasn't a linux problem. Linux was just the first known trigger. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 14 16:40:56 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:40:56 -0500 Subject: Conversation with Rogers In-Reply-To: References: <20130210044458.74600@gmx.com> <51179C86.5070902@rogers.com> <20130211091232.GA5289@node1.opengeometry.net> <5118E7A8.3010702@rogers.com> Message-ID: <511D1398.5080801@ve3syb.ca> On 13-02-11 09:18 AM, Michael MacLeod wrote: > Is it possible to go over you 60GB cap with the old modem and hit 80GB of > data in a month? I suspect it is. It is possible. My Internet connection via Rogers is capped at 60GB per month. I went over the limit once when I was backing up data from a remote MySQL database. When you go over the limit you pay extra per GB up to a maximum dollar value. The maximum extra amount you would have to pay was $50. They have now upped that limit to $100. There is plenty of room to speculate as to why they raised the limit on the overage fee. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 15 18:26:05 2013 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:26:05 -0500 Subject: TLUG: OFF TOPIC: Security Mailing list Message-ID: Hello, I want to go to the security users group that is available in Toronto. Though I can't find the mailing list to join or when it meets next. Can someone give me a link/mailing list id that I can join? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Want to send emails that can't be read by someone else Some people ask "Why encrypt email?" The reason is simple: privacy. As it stands, getting access to an email message is very easy to do. Whether it's because of an email server being hacked, the email being intercepted, or even laws that allow governments to go through all electronic messages sent. You have a right to your privacy, but it's up to you to protect that right. * Encrypt with my pgp key which can be found here: * https://keyserver.pgp.com/vkd/GetWelcomeScreen.event -- For more info go here: http://www.gnupg.org/ for GNU Version or here http://www.symantec.com/business/theme.jsp?themeid=pgp for business implementation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 15 18:34:23 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:34:23 -0500 Subject: TLUG: OFF TOPIC: Security Mailing list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <511E7FAF.4010400@rogers.com> Dave Germiquet wrote: > I want to go to the security users group that is available in Toronto. > Though I can't find the mailing list to join or when it meets next. > > Can someone give me a link/mailing list id that I can join? That would be a security violation. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 15 18:34:53 2013 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:34:53 -0500 Subject: TLUG: OFF TOPIC: Security Mailing list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130215183453.GA2929@watson-wilson.ca> Perhaps http://www.task.to/ -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 15 18:36:45 2013 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:36:45 -0500 Subject: TLUG: OFF TOPIC: Security Mailing list In-Reply-To: <20130215183453.GA2929-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20130215183453.GA2929@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: Thanks Neil. Thats what I was looking for. On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > Perhaps http://www.task.to/ > > -- > Neil Watson > Linux/UNIX Consultant > http://watson-wilson.ca > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Want to send emails that can't be read by someone else Some people ask "Why encrypt email?" The reason is simple: privacy. As it stands, getting access to an email message is very easy to do. Whether it's because of an email server being hacked, the email being intercepted, or even laws that allow governments to go through all electronic messages sent. You have a right to your privacy, but it's up to you to protect that right. * Encrypt with my pgp key which can be found here: * https://keyserver.pgp.com/vkd/GetWelcomeScreen.event -- For more info go here: http://www.gnupg.org/ for GNU Version or here http://www.symantec.com/business/theme.jsp?themeid=pgp for business implementation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 15 18:49:11 2013 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:49:11 -0500 Subject: TLUG: OFF TOPIC: Security Mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <20130215183453.GA2929@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <511E8327.7020802@sobac.com> There's also http://sector.ca/ --Bob. On 13-02-15 01:36 PM, Dave Germiquet wrote: > Thanks Neil. Thats what I was looking for. > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Neil Watson wrote: >> Perhaps http://www.task.to/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 16 04:48:44 2013 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 23:48:44 -0500 Subject: Fedora 18 FirewallD Message-ID: <20130215234844.c38262ee6d1c70e34fee142e@eol.ca> I have just installed Fedora_18 onto my laptop. Mostly it has gone okay. Can anyone recommend some good documentation for Firewall Daemon? I want to pass the True Stealth analysis at http://www.grc.com. My other option is to turn it off and keep running iptables. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 16 22:47:48 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:47:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: RAID without TLER Message-ID: This old article claims that TLER (Time Limited Error Recovery) is not needed for disks in some home RAID systems. You can read some forum posts too. One mistake in the article: their NAS RAID controllers don't depend on or even listen to TLER, CCTL, ERC or any other similar error recovery signal from their drives. As I undertand it, there isn't a TLER signal. TLER just puts a bound on how long a disk drive will take before responding to a read request. Here's another thread that seems to confirm that Linux software RAID handles disks without TLER. Just much more patience is needed in the RAID system when waiting for a result from a disk? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 16 23:57:15 2013 From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:57:15 -0500 Subject: Found a replacement power supply ? Message-ID: <20130216235715.304150@gmx.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Cozens > Sent: 02/13/13 05:24 PM > On 13-02-10 08:33 PM, Molly Tournquist wrote: > > The TX650 is made by seasonic. The CX600 and CX600M are apparently > > made by channel well. > > Correct. I found a web page that lists who actually makes the supplies > sold under different brand names. > > > I believe you've heard about the differences/uninterchangeability of > > completely different products by the same distributor/brand. > > I know the name on the box doesn't indicate who actually made the > supply. Other than that, I don't know what what you are trying to say. I mean that you have to be consistantly mindful of the rebranding trail, that you cannot put faith in vague power supply name similarities. Particularly if they're different model lines... when Antec earthwatts units switched from being made by Seasonic to Delta, that might not have been a huge drop in quality, but that doesn't make "value lines" safe, even from the same distributors as celebrated PSU models. > > If you insist on sticking with best buy, and are okay with taking a > > risk with the quality anyway, you might want to look at the antec > > basiq 350W (BP350) , it has 23A on the pair of 12V rails. Even if > > it's not 80plus certified, it probably won't be much less efficient, > > I previously stated my reasons for using Best Buy which has nothing to > do with taking a risk. If I really wanted to take a risk I would just > gone to my local outlet of Best Buy and picked up either the Dynex or > RocketFish supply they have available. > > Since I'm going to change the supply I want to make sure it can handle > the two built-in HD's and a removable one all at the same time and also > allow me to use higher end video cards in the future. I also want an > 80%+ supply as my machine gets a lot of use. I didn't claim or imply that best buy was the daring thing, that was going with a CX600M rather than the TX650 or the earthwatts, "for a few dollars less". If you were doing that, you might as well just look into the possibility of a 350 watt Fortron. Best buy glaringly excludes probably the most sensible type of PSU's(300-500 watt top quality models), that is obviously meant to push people up into the flat out extravagant models, so a very appropriate response to that is making sure if whatever modest alternative is available is or isn't actually enough. And it does have the 19 amps on the 12V rail you mentioned, though it's quite important to remember that CPU also uses 12V heavily. Two hard drives don't really use much power, and an external one wouldn't even be able to actually get the power it needs off the USB port unless it was a 2.5 incher. Now, you might worry about if a set of hard drives is actually getting clean power, but once again that's more a case of a quality power supply not a heavy one(heavy as in expensive and high watt, literally heavy does suggest high quality). And those generics, that's a big distance from taking a risk, that's just plunging all out into the dark, who will even know if you'd end up with an allied/deer junker? Maybe something like a Channel Well or ATNG unit which you'd be trying to *avoid* with the name brands would actually be along the lines of what you'd be *hoping* for ... still they might not even be similar designs ... they're showing themselves to be not even worth people's attention. What 80+ means is that it's at least 80% efficient at 20% to 100% of maximum load, they test it in the middle too, but that's not a challenge, the median load is high on the efficiency bell curve. Therefor, from all the time that it's much closer to the minimum load, the higher rated a power supply you're using the *LESS efficient* it actually will be. If it's 78% efficient at 70 watts, that might just be better than if it's 82% efficient at 120 watts. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lennart Sorensen > Sent: 02/13/13 05:41 PM > I have had good luck only buying what hardwaresecrets.com has given an > award in a review. Review sites that actually do a proper job tend to do eleborate, very technical tests, of course you don't have to read through their whole test documentations. Xbitlabs from what I've heard is one of the established, older PSU testers. > Going by brand, series or anything else doesn't work since they don't > make them themselves and different sizes in a given series can be > totally different. That is a bit of an exageration. Some brands are those of the manufacturers, like Seasonic and Fortron/FSP Group/Sparkle Power International, and have been well regarded. HEC/Compucase is a manufacturer. > About all you can be sure of is that if it has no name at all, it is a > piece of junk. :) You can make various generalizations. Power supply brands have their quirks. The "gamer" themed brands not unexpectedly seem ?more eratic and marked up. Enermax has long had a solid reputation, which was known to be partly undeserved(they outsourced to Channel Well sometimes too). Silverstone seems to have gone for being a high class brand. Antec is somewhat value oriented yet has been rather creative. Silenx, well, let's just rememeber that they've had their ... shenanigans. Server PSU manufacturers would likely be very reliable, perhaps noisy too; Zippy is one. Scythe seems to have certain standard for quality and noise from a considerable focus on the Japanese market. Brands that sell cases rarely are manufacturers, though Inwin has their Power Man like. Brands that are better known for selling RAM or video cards... are just strange newcomers. Still, it's not exactly the same mess as when all CD/DVD distributers outsourced to Ritek and CMC magnetics. Which even was a bit of an special nuisance with linux not having had the same mini arsenal of disc testing tools as on windows. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 17 21:42:52 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 16:42:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: bad blocks on SATA disk: another war story and a request for advice Message-ID: I'm going to lay out this story in the hope that it helps others in a similar situation, and in the hope that others might might recommend improvements. The 2.5" hard drive in one of my "nettop" computers has developed read errors. I discovered this when fsck threw up its hands during a reboot (planned: after updates). I just shut the machine down. I rebooted a different partition (the sick one was Fedora; I rebooted to Ubuntu). It sure is handy to be able to boot a system that doesn't itself have bad sectors. If you don't have a healthy system on your hard disk, consider booting an emergency system off CD or USB. palimpsest is the real name of what Ubuntu menus call "Disk Utility". It seems to have no manpage and does not respond to a --help flag. Grrr. Among other things, it is a GUI interface to S.M.A.R.T capabilities of disk drives. palmipsest said "Current Pending Sector Count" is 64 after a long selftest. That means that there are 64 sectors that cannot be read. The "Reallocation Count" is 8. That means that there were 8 sectors that the disk firmware has judged to be bad or going bad and has "remapped" to spare. This is invisible to the computer: the new sectors appear to be at the original address. If I wrote something to one of those pending sectors, the firmware would remap it too. The Pending Sector Count would go down by one, and the Reallocation Count would go up by one. That's where the odd euphemistic term "Pending" comes from: they are awaiting a write so that they can be remapped. To be honest, I think I prefer the CLI tool smartctl(8) to Palimpsest(?). For a complete report: sudo smartctl -x /dev/sda To start a long test: sudo smartctl -t long /dev/sda The test runs a long time but command returns immediately and the system continues to operate, and the drive remains available to it. The command will tell you a guestimate of when the test will complete. To find out the results, ask for another report when the test is complete (the report will say if the test isn't yet complete). Summary: - Current Pending Sector Count is the number of sectors that cannot be read by the drive and haven't subsequently been written to. They are bad news and the problem is visible to software. - Reallocation Count is old bad news. Everything is fine now. But, of course, it is a sign that the disk might not have a long and healthy life ahead of it. Now, what to do about this? badblocks(8) will look for badblocks. It can optionally use nondestructive writes in the test (i.e. read a block and write the same contents back). The output of badblocks can be fed into e2fsck (the file system check command for ext2, ext3, and ext4 filesystems). But: badblocks needs to know the blocksize used by the filesystem. Unfortunate: the badblocks output does not declare the blocksize used so e2fsck just assumes that it is right. On my system, the defaults were wrong (badblocks assumes 1k, my filesystem actually used 4k). How can you discover the extN blocksize? tune2fs -l /dev/sda5 This reports a lot of info, including the blocksize. Safer is to use the -c parameter to e2fsck and have it run badblocks the right way itself. The downside is that you don't get to see the damage before acting on it. In my case, badblocks found four 4KiB bad blocks in the Fedora partition. That explains at most 32 512B bad blocks so there must be more lurking somewhere. Yikes. Getting e2fsck to handle the bad blocks is good because you can find out what the damage is in terms of files and inodes. What is unfortunate is that it doesn't allow the disk firmware to get rid of the bad sectors: they are still there and they will still cause problems if you read them. But the filesystem is adjusted so that they no longer are or will be used. dd'ing the whole raw disk will still hit them though. One unfortunate thing: it could be that only a part of a 4KiB block is lost (i.e. fewer than eight of the 512B sectors on the drive that hold one 4KiB block). e2fsck does not seem to try to recover and use this partial info. It should at least try to recover something if this contained inodes. Hmmm. When I ask for SMART data, without running another test, it seems to be down to 8 Pending (from 64) and up to 17 Reallocated (from 8 then 9). So maybe e2fsck does write to the bad blocks. And it appears that not all the errors are in the Fedora partition. Is it likely that what has gone wrong is a one-time thing or is it the start of a trend? - the bad sectors are not all in one place (three ranges in the Fedora partition, and at least one elsewhere). So it isn't a simple physical bad-spot - the Reallocated number went up from 8 to 9 for a reason I don't understand This makes me think that I should just discard the drive because it will be more trouble than it is worth. But being a hacker, I will play with it a bit more. The disk is a Hitachi 5K750 HTS547575A9E384 750G 2.5" drive. I bought it as an external drive because that was cheaper than a bare drive. I cracked it open and installed it in my nettop. Consequently there is no warranty on it as far as I know. Reading a review of the drive, All models in this product range employ AF and emulate 512-byte sectors. That means that the actual sector size is 4KiB (probably). So the filesystem's 4KiB block size is appropriate. So why would any of the SMART sector counts be other than a multiple of 8? How could there be 9 or 17 reallocated sectors when reallocation must be done 8 at a time? Hitachi took over IBM's disk business. Recently HGST, the disk business, was sold to Western Digital. So I guess the ERC will disappear. Right now, smartctl reports: SCT capabilities: (0x003d) SCT Status supported. SCT Error Recovery Control supported. SCT Feature Control supported. SCT Data Table supported. I think that SCT Error Recovery Control supported means that you should be able to ask the drive to limit how long it will attempt to read bad sectors. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 18 03:58:48 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 22:58:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: bad blocks on SATA disk: another war story and a request for advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did badblocks on the whold disk (/dev/sda). It came up with no bad sectors! Now smartctl says: ID Attribute raw value 5 Reallocate Sector Count 0 196 Reallocation Count 18 197 Current Pending Sector 0 Why is ID 5 not 18? ID 5 and 196 would seem to have similar descriptions. ID 5 is "count of remapped sectors. When the hard drive finds a read/write/verification error, it maks the sector as "reallocated" and transfers data to a special reserved area (spare area)." ID 196 is the number of successful and unsuccessful attempts to transfer from reallocated sectors to a spare area. Surely if pending sectors has gone from 64 to 0, the previous pending sectors must have been reallocated and hence ID 5 should be 64, or at least some number above 0. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 19 16:55:22 2013 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 11:55:22 -0500 Subject: bad blocks on SATA disk: another war story and a request for advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 February 2013 16:42, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I'm going to lay out this story in the hope that it helps others in a > similar situation, and in the hope that others might might recommend > improvements. > > The 2.5" hard drive in one of my "nettop" computers has developed read > errors. > > I discovered this when fsck threw up its hands during a reboot > (planned: after updates). I just shut the machine down. > > I rebooted a different partition (the sick one was Fedora; I rebooted > to Ubuntu). It sure is handy to be able to boot a system that > doesn't itself have bad sectors. If you don't have a healthy system > on your hard disk, consider booting an emergency system off CD or USB. > > palimpsest is the real name of what Ubuntu menus call "Disk Utility". > It seems to have no manpage and does not respond to a --help flag. > Grrr. Among other things, it is a GUI interface to S.M.A.R.T > capabilities of disk drives. > > palmipsest said "Current Pending Sector Count" is 64 after a long > selftest. That means that there are 64 sectors that cannot be read. > > The "Reallocation Count" is 8. That means that there were 8 sectors > that the disk firmware has judged to be bad or going bad and has > "remapped" to spare. This is invisible to the computer: the new > sectors appear to be at the original address. > > If I wrote something to one of those pending sectors, the firmware > would remap it too. The Pending Sector Count would go down > by one, and the Reallocation Count would go up by one. That's where > the odd euphemistic term "Pending" comes from: they are awaiting a > write so that they can be remapped. > > To be honest, I think I prefer the CLI tool smartctl(8) to > Palimpsest(?). > > For a complete report: > sudo smartctl -x /dev/sda > > To start a long test: > sudo smartctl -t long /dev/sda > The test runs a long time but command returns immediately and the > system continues to operate, and the drive remains available to it. > The command will tell you a guestimate of when the test will complete. > To find out the results, ask for another report when the test is > complete (the report will say if the test isn't yet complete). > > Summary: > > - Current Pending Sector Count is the number of sectors that cannot be > read by the drive and haven't subsequently been written to. They are > bad news and the problem is visible to software. > > - Reallocation Count is old bad news. Everything is fine now. But, > of course, it is a sign that the disk might not have a long and > healthy life ahead of it. > > > Now, what to do about this? > > badblocks(8) will look for badblocks. It can optionally use > nondestructive writes in the test (i.e. read a block and write the > same contents back). > > The output of badblocks can be fed into e2fsck (the file system check > command for ext2, ext3, and ext4 filesystems). But: badblocks needs > to know the blocksize used by the filesystem. Unfortunate: the > badblocks output does not declare the blocksize used so e2fsck just > assumes that it is right. On my system, the defaults were wrong > (badblocks assumes 1k, my filesystem actually used 4k). > > How can you discover the extN blocksize? > tune2fs -l /dev/sda5 > This reports a lot of info, including the blocksize. > > Safer is to use the -c parameter to e2fsck and have it run > badblocks the right way itself. The downside is that you don't get to > see the damage before acting on it. > > In my case, badblocks found four 4KiB bad blocks in the Fedora > partition. That explains at most 32 512B bad blocks so there must be > more lurking somewhere. Yikes. > > Getting e2fsck to handle the bad blocks is good because you can find > out what the damage is in terms of files and inodes. What is > unfortunate is that it doesn't allow the disk firmware to get rid of > the bad sectors: they are still there and they will still cause > problems if you read them. But the filesystem is adjusted so that > they no longer are or will be used. dd'ing the whole raw disk will > still hit them though. > > One unfortunate thing: it could be that only a part of a 4KiB block is > lost (i.e. fewer than eight of the 512B sectors on the drive that hold > one 4KiB block). e2fsck does not seem to try to recover and use this > partial info. It should at least try to recover something if this > contained inodes. > > Hmmm. When I ask for SMART data, without running another test, it > seems to be down to 8 Pending (from 64) and up to 17 Reallocated (from > 8 then 9). So maybe e2fsck does write to the bad blocks. And it > appears that not all the errors are in the Fedora partition. > > Is it likely that what has gone wrong is a one-time thing or is it the > start of a trend? > > - the bad sectors are not all in one place (three ranges in the Fedora > partition, and at least one elsewhere). So it isn't a simple > physical bad-spot > > - the Reallocated number went up from 8 to 9 for a reason I don't > understand > > This makes me think that I should just discard the drive because it > will be more trouble than it is worth. But being a hacker, I will > play with it a bit more. > > The disk is a Hitachi 5K750 HTS547575A9E384 750G 2.5" drive. I bought > it as an external drive because that was cheaper than a bare drive. I > cracked it open and installed it in my nettop. Consequently there is > no warranty on it as far as I know. > > Reading a review of the drive, > All models in this product range employ AF and emulate > 512-byte sectors. > That means that the actual sector size is 4KiB (probably). So the > filesystem's 4KiB block size is appropriate. > > So why would any of the SMART sector counts be other than a multiple > of 8? How could there be 9 or 17 reallocated sectors when > reallocation must be done 8 at a time? > > Hitachi took over IBM's disk business. Recently HGST, the disk > business, was sold to Western Digital. So I guess the ERC will > disappear. Right now, smartctl reports: > > SCT capabilities: (0x003d) SCT Status supported. > SCT Error Recovery Control supported. > SCT Feature Control supported. > SCT Data Table supported. > > I think that SCT Error Recovery Control supported means that you > should be able to ask the drive to limit how long it will attempt to > read bad sectors. Thanks for the extensive report: it's something I hope not to face again, but I probably will, and knowing some of this will be a help. As for "Is it likely that what has gone wrong is a one-time thing or is it the start of a trend?" My experience with drives going bad goes back a decade - I had to deal with several over a relatively short period - and drive technology has changed A LOT since then. But my thought is the same as yours: I think this is a sign of things to come and I wouldn't trust the drive at all. More trouble than it's worth. The cost to replace it is small to improve your own peace of mind. However, if you do replace it, for your education and ours, you could toss it into some support role and keep an eye on it to see if it really does continue to degrade. But that may also be more trouble than it's worth. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 19 17:02:25 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:02:25 -0500 Subject: bad blocks on SATA disk: another war story and a request for advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130219170224.GA15030@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 04:42:52PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >... > This makes me think that I should just discard the drive because it > will be more trouble than it is worth. But being a hacker, I will > play with it a bit more. Last time I got bad sectors, I set up a partition (1GB) containing those bad sectors. But, soon, the number and size of "bad partitions" grow. Real advice is to get a SSD. :-) > > The disk is a Hitachi 5K750 HTS547575A9E384 750G 2.5" drive. I bought > it as an external drive because that was cheaper than a bare drive. I > cracked it open and installed it in my nettop. Consequently there is > no warranty on it as far as I know. I did the same with Hitachi 3GB USB harddisk, and it soon gave me so much errors that it was unusable. If someone wants a dead-ish 3TB harddisk, let me know. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 19 17:09:24 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:09:24 -0500 Subject: bad blocks on SATA disk: another war story and a request for advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130219170924.GG20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 04:42:52PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I'm going to lay out this story in the hope that it helps others in a > similar situation, and in the hope that others might might recommend > improvements. > > The 2.5" hard drive in one of my "nettop" computers has developed read > errors. > > I discovered this when fsck threw up its hands during a reboot > (planned: after updates). I just shut the machine down. > > I rebooted a different partition (the sick one was Fedora; I rebooted > to Ubuntu). It sure is handy to be able to boot a system that > doesn't itself have bad sectors. If you don't have a healthy system > on your hard disk, consider booting an emergency system off CD or USB. > > palimpsest is the real name of what Ubuntu menus call "Disk Utility". > It seems to have no manpage and does not respond to a --help flag. > Grrr. Among other things, it is a GUI interface to S.M.A.R.T > capabilities of disk drives. > > palmipsest said "Current Pending Sector Count" is 64 after a long > selftest. That means that there are 64 sectors that cannot be read. > > The "Reallocation Count" is 8. That means that there were 8 sectors > that the disk firmware has judged to be bad or going bad and has > "remapped" to spare. This is invisible to the computer: the new > sectors appear to be at the original address. > > If I wrote something to one of those pending sectors, the firmware > would remap it too. The Pending Sector Count would go down > by one, and the Reallocation Count would go up by one. That's where > the odd euphemistic term "Pending" comes from: they are awaiting a > write so that they can be remapped. > > To be honest, I think I prefer the CLI tool smartctl(8) to > Palimpsest(?). > > For a complete report: > sudo smartctl -x /dev/sda > > To start a long test: > sudo smartctl -t long /dev/sda > The test runs a long time but command returns immediately and the > system continues to operate, and the drive remains available to it. > The command will tell you a guestimate of when the test will complete. > To find out the results, ask for another report when the test is > complete (the report will say if the test isn't yet complete). > > Summary: > > - Current Pending Sector Count is the number of sectors that cannot be > read by the drive and haven't subsequently been written to. They are > bad news and the problem is visible to software. > > - Reallocation Count is old bad news. Everything is fine now. But, > of course, it is a sign that the disk might not have a long and > healthy life ahead of it. > > > Now, what to do about this? > > badblocks(8) will look for badblocks. It can optionally use > nondestructive writes in the test (i.e. read a block and write the > same contents back). > > The output of badblocks can be fed into e2fsck (the file system check > command for ext2, ext3, and ext4 filesystems). But: badblocks needs > to know the blocksize used by the filesystem. Unfortunate: the > badblocks output does not declare the blocksize used so e2fsck just > assumes that it is right. On my system, the defaults were wrong > (badblocks assumes 1k, my filesystem actually used 4k). > > How can you discover the extN blocksize? > tune2fs -l /dev/sda5 > This reports a lot of info, including the blocksize. > > Safer is to use the -c parameter to e2fsck and have it run > badblocks the right way itself. The downside is that you don't get to > see the damage before acting on it. > > In my case, badblocks found four 4KiB bad blocks in the Fedora > partition. That explains at most 32 512B bad blocks so there must be > more lurking somewhere. Yikes. > > Getting e2fsck to handle the bad blocks is good because you can find > out what the damage is in terms of files and inodes. What is > unfortunate is that it doesn't allow the disk firmware to get rid of > the bad sectors: they are still there and they will still cause > problems if you read them. But the filesystem is adjusted so that > they no longer are or will be used. dd'ing the whole raw disk will > still hit them though. > > One unfortunate thing: it could be that only a part of a 4KiB block is > lost (i.e. fewer than eight of the 512B sectors on the drive that hold > one 4KiB block). e2fsck does not seem to try to recover and use this > partial info. It should at least try to recover something if this > contained inodes. > > Hmmm. When I ask for SMART data, without running another test, it > seems to be down to 8 Pending (from 64) and up to 17 Reallocated (from > 8 then 9). So maybe e2fsck does write to the bad blocks. And it > appears that not all the errors are in the Fedora partition. > > Is it likely that what has gone wrong is a one-time thing or is it the > start of a trend? > > - the bad sectors are not all in one place (three ranges in the Fedora > partition, and at least one elsewhere). So it isn't a simple > physical bad-spot > > - the Reallocated number went up from 8 to 9 for a reason I don't > understand > > This makes me think that I should just discard the drive because it > will be more trouble than it is worth. But being a hacker, I will > play with it a bit more. > > The disk is a Hitachi 5K750 HTS547575A9E384 750G 2.5" drive. I bought > it as an external drive because that was cheaper than a bare drive. I > cracked it open and installed it in my nettop. Consequently there is > no warranty on it as far as I know. > > Reading a review of the drive, > All models in this product range employ AF and emulate > 512-byte sectors. > That means that the actual sector size is 4KiB (probably). So the > filesystem's 4KiB block size is appropriate. > > So why would any of the SMART sector counts be other than a multiple > of 8? How could there be 9 or 17 reallocated sectors when > reallocation must be done 8 at a time? The firmware might be smart enough to do partial remapping, waiting for the remaining logical sectors in the larger physical sector to be written before finishing the remapping. > Hitachi took over IBM's disk business. Recently HGST, the disk > business, was sold to Western Digital. So I guess the ERC will > disappear. Right now, smartctl reports: > > SCT capabilities: (0x003d) SCT Status supported. > SCT Error Recovery Control supported. > SCT Feature Control supported. > SCT Data Table supported. > > I think that SCT Error Recovery Control supported means that you > should be able to ask the drive to limit how long it will attempt to > read bad sectors. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 19 17:11:27 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:11:27 -0500 Subject: RAID without TLER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130219171127.GH20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 05:47:48PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > This old article > > claims that TLER (Time Limited Error Recovery) is not needed for disks in > some home RAID systems. > > You can read some forum posts too. > > One mistake in the article: > their NAS RAID controllers don't depend on or even listen to > TLER, CCTL, ERC or any other similar error recovery signal > from their drives. > As I undertand it, there isn't a TLER signal. TLER just puts a bound > on how long a disk drive will take before responding to a read > request. > > Here's another thread that seems to confirm that Linux software RAID > handles disks without TLER. > > > > Just much more patience is needed in the RAID system when waiting for > a result from a disk? Of course now that western digital red drives are available, why would you not use those? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 19 19:49:09 2013 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:49:09 -0500 Subject: bad blocks on SATA disk: another war story and a request for advice In-Reply-To: <20130219170224.GA15030-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130219170224.GA15030@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1361303349.3601.0.camel@tecumseth3> On Tue, 2013-02-19 at 12:02 -0500, William Park wrote: > I did the same with Hitachi 3GB USB harddisk, and it soon gave me so > much errors that it was unusable. If someone wants a dead-ish 3TB > harddisk, let me know. The maker-people love those stepper motors. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 19 22:09:38 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:09:38 -0500 Subject: bad blocks on SATA disk: another war story and a request for advice In-Reply-To: <1361303349.3601.0.camel@tecumseth3> References: <20130219170224.GA15030@node1.opengeometry.net> <1361303349.3601.0.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: <5123F822.8090504@rogers.com> Mel Wilson wrote: > The maker-people love those stepper motors. Stepper motors? To my knowledge, they haven't been used in disk drives for years. Hard drives have used servos for decades. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 20 06:41:10 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 01:41:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: RAID without TLER In-Reply-To: <20130219171127.GH20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130219171127.GH20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | Of course now that western digital red drives are available, why would | you not use those? 1) they are quite a bit more expensive. 2) according to the smallnetbuilder article, consumer NAS devices don't use ERC. Sounds odd to me. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 20 12:19:29 2013 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 07:19:29 -0500 Subject: RAID without TLER In-Reply-To: References: <20130219171127.GH20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130220121929.GS19974@adb.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > ... [ re Western Digital Red ] > > 1) they are quite a bit more expensive. > > 2) according to the smallnetbuilder article, consumer NAS devices > don't use ERC. Sounds odd to me. Maybe those NAS builders think RAID stands for "Redundant Array of *Inexpensive* Devices" or some such silly thing? (Me, I'm paranoid enough that the sides of a mirror won't even be from the same vendor, let alone have consecutive serial numbers.) -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 20 16:24:44 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:24:44 -0500 Subject: RAID without TLER In-Reply-To: References: <20130219171127.GH20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130220162443.GI20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 01:41:10AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > 1) they are quite a bit more expensive. No, WD enterprise (yellow label) drives are expensive. 2TB Red: $120 2TB Green: $100 (but much slower) 2TB Black: $170 1TB Red: $85 1TB Green: $75 1TB Blue: $75 1TB Black: $95 So given the Red is rated 24/7 operation with time limited error recovery, and has similar performance to the Blue, that seems pretty reasonable to me. > 2) according to the smallnetbuilder article, consumer NAS devices > don't use ERC. Sounds odd to me. Maybe not, but a drive that doesn't take very long to respond with 'bad read' is still good for any raid controller. The time limited error recovery is what RAIDs have needed. ERC isn't needed, but can be useful for high end RAID controllers perhaps. A drive that disappears for 2 minutes trying to read a failing sector will cause the drive to drop out of most RAIDs, which is what the WD Red is meant to avoid. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 20 19:31:49 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 14:31:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: RAID without TLER In-Reply-To: <20130220162443.GI20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130219171127.GH20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130220162443.GI20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 01:41:10AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > 1) they are quite a bit more expensive. | | No, WD enterprise (yellow label) drives are expensive. | | 2TB Red: $120 | 2TB Green: $100 (but much slower) | 2TB Black: $170 | | 1TB Red: $85 | 1TB Green: $75 | 1TB Blue: $75 | 1TB Black: $95 Sale price for 3T Red: 140; 3T Seagate $90; both 7200RPM; Seagate has no ERC. | So given the Red is rated 24/7 operation Just what does that mean? Drives don't know what time of day they are on. Which spec realistically reflects this, MTBF? Or is this another market segmentation trick. | with time limited error recovery, | and has similar performance to the Blue, that seems pretty reasonable | to me. Limiting error recovery time costs WD nothing. Reliability might. Hence I'm willing to pay for that if it is demonstrable. Neither anecdotes nor marketing constitute demonstrations. | > 2) according to the smallnetbuilder article, consumer NAS devices | > don't use ERC. Sounds odd to me. | | Maybe not, but a drive that doesn't take very long to respond with | 'bad read' is still good for any raid controller. Doesn't matter too much: if you need an absolute bound on latency, maybe. This has little effect on average latency since these errors are very rare (or something is very wrong and needs to be fixed). | The time limited error recovery is what RAIDs have needed. ERC isn't | needed, but can be useful for high end RAID controllers perhaps. This terminology is a mess. TLER is a WD marketing term (a good one, and apparently not trademarked). In the interest of being neutral, I switchted to ERC which seems to be the generic term. | A drive that disappears for 2 minutes trying to read a failing sector | will cause the drive to drop out of most RAIDs, which is what the WD | Red is meant to avoid. Well yes, that's what I was saying (with some more details). And ordinary inexpensive drives used to have that capability. So they are giving us back, at a price, what they took away. Seagate took away ERC too. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 20 19:31:55 2013 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 14:31:55 -0500 Subject: bad blocks on SATA disk: another war story and a request for advice In-Reply-To: <20130219170224.GA15030-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130219170224.GA15030@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William, > > Last time I got bad sectors, I set up a partition (1GB) containing those > bad sectors. But, soon, the number and size of "bad partitions" grow. > > Real advice is to get a SSD. :-) > Hmm, I think for reliability, I would stay with hard disk. SSD fails without without warning. At least with hard disk, you get warnings Why SSD shine is on speed. Oh and can comfortably survive being dropped William William > > > > The disk is a Hitachi 5K750 HTS547575A9E384 750G 2.5" drive. I bought > > it as an external drive because that was cheaper than a bare drive. I > > cracked it open and installed it in my nettop. Consequently there is > > no warranty on it as far as I know. > > I did the same with Hitachi 3GB USB harddisk, and it soon gave me so > much errors that it was unusable. If someone wants a dead-ish 3TB > harddisk, let me know. > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 20 20:26:37 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 15:26:37 -0500 Subject: RAID without TLER In-Reply-To: References: <20130219171127.GH20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130220162443.GI20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130220202637.GJ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 02:31:49PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Sale price for 3T Red: 140; 3T Seagate $90; both 7200RPM; Seagate has no > ERC. I wouldn't put any data of mine on a Seagate drive. No comparison at all. Compare it against something reliable. > Just what does that mean? Drives don't know what time of day they are > on. Which spec realistically reflects this, MTBF? Or is this another > market segmentation trick. Many drives sold for desktop use are only expected to run about 8 hours a day 5 days a week. They expect they will be off the rest of the time. They claim the MTBF of the Red is 35% higher than the standard desktop drive (I would think that means the Blue model). Of course my experience is that leaving a drive always on makes it last longer. WD did put some of the WD green features in too, to help control heat in small NAS enclosures, but without the annoying constant park that the green drives like to do. > Limiting error recovery time costs WD nothing. Reliability might. > Hence I'm willing to pay for that if it is demonstrable. Neither > anecdotes nor marketing constitute demonstrations. Firmware wise it costs them nothing. They offer free 24/7 tech support for red drives apparently. No idea what that's useful for. > Doesn't matter too much: if you need an absolute bound on latency, > maybe. This has little effect on average latency since these errors > are very rare (or something is very wrong and needs to be fixed). What seagate calls ERC, western digital calls TLER, and it's not something a RAID uses, it is something it requires. If a disk decides to spend 2 minutes trying to complete a read that is failing in the hopes that it just might eventually read it and then be able to remap it right away, then the RAID will usually drop that disk as being dead. That's not good. Since you have raid (raid0 isn't raid), you would rather have the read fail quickly, keep the disk in the raid with one unreadable area, have the raid controller rewrite the bad area which lets the disk remap it. No RAID rebuild needed and no slowdown. > This terminology is a mess. TLER is a WD marketing term (a good one, > and apparently not trademarked). In the interest of being neutral, I > switchted to ERC which seems to be the generic term. ERC is a seagate marketing term and much less accurate than TLER. ERC sounds like something that the controller needs to talk to. That isn't the case. TLER says exactly what it does. > Well yes, that's what I was saying (with some more details). And > ordinary inexpensive drives used to have that capability. So they are > giving us back, at a price, what they took away. Seagate took away ERC > too. That is true. Why they took it away I don't know, but at least now cheap drives are again available that have it. I will certainly be buying the WD red drives for any raid setup I do. I think I have been lucky never to have a problem with the Blacks so far, probably because none of them have ever had a read error that took long to deal with. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 17:51:35 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 12:51:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: RAID without TLER In-Reply-To: <20130220202637.GJ20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130219171127.GH20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130220162443.GI20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130220202637.GJ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 02:31:49PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > Sale price for 3T Red: 140; 3T Seagate $90; both 7200RPM; Seagate has no | > ERC. | | I wouldn't put any data of mine on a Seagate drive. No comparison at all. | Compare it against something reliable. Based on anecdotes? Based on long-obsolete models? Of course you might be right. I personally hold a grudge against Seagate for how they handled the 7200.11 firmware bug. That's not anecdote, that's observed behaviour of the company. | > Just what does that mean? Drives don't know what time of day they are | > on. Which spec realistically reflects this, MTBF? Or is this another | > market segmentation trick. | | Many drives sold for desktop use are only expected to run about 8 hours | a day 5 days a week. They expect they will be off the rest of the time. | | They claim the MTBF of the Red is 35% higher than the standard desktop | drive (I would think that means the Blue model). | | Of course my experience is that leaving a drive always on makes it | last longer. Thanks for trying, but you didn't answer my question. I, cynically, think that the 8x5 claim is just marketing FUD. | WD did put some of the WD green features in too, to help control heat | in small NAS enclosures, but without the annoying constant park that | the green drives like to do. Sometimes constant parking is timed just right to be worst-case for Linux. In earlier posts I've noted how some laptop disks seem to be murdered by this. | > Doesn't matter too much: if you need an absolute bound on latency, | > maybe. This has little effect on average latency since these errors | > are very rare (or something is very wrong and needs to be fixed). | | What seagate calls ERC, western digital calls TLER, and it's not something | a RAID uses, it is something it requires. I thought so too. But learned otherwise. That's part of my original post. I would like the RAID system to be able to use ERC to reduce the time exactly when there is redundancy. For example, if the RAID is degraded, I'd like the disk hardware to try really hard to read. But ERC isn't needed on systems without requirements on worst-case-latency UNLESS the RAID controller cannot be told to be patient. I have read claims that Linux software RAID is patient. | If a disk decides to spend 2 | minutes trying to complete a read that is failing in the hopes that it | just might eventually read it and then be able to remap it right away, | then the RAID will usually drop that disk as being dead. That's not good. | Since you have raid (raid0 isn't raid), you would rather have the read | fail quickly, keep the disk in the raid with one unreadable area, have | the raid controller rewrite the bad area which lets the disk remap it. | No RAID rebuild needed and no slowdown. That was my understanding until I read the smallnetbuilder article. | > This terminology is a mess. TLER is a WD marketing term (a good one, | > and apparently not trademarked). In the interest of being neutral, I | > switchted to ERC which seems to be the generic term. | | ERC is a seagate marketing term and much less accurate than TLER. | ERC sounds like something that the controller needs to talk to. | That isn't the case. TLER says exactly what it does. And the ATA standard calls SCT ERC. So does smartmontools. SCT == SMART Command Transport SMART == Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology ERC == Error Recovery Control Some people claim that ERC is a non-optional part of ATA-8. I'm too lazy to check. | I think I have been | lucky never to have a problem with the Blacks so far, probably because | none of them have ever had a read error that took long to deal with. Who knows? I had a Hitachi 2.5" drive go bad recently. I timed an attempted read of a bad sector: silly at reddot:~$ sudo time dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null bs=512 count=1 skip=104674232 dd: reading `/dev/sda': Input/output error 0+0 records in 0+0 records out 0 bytes (0 B) copied, 19.6043 s, 0.0 kB/s Command exited with non-zero status 1 0.00user 0.00system 0:19.60elapsed 0%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 3696maxresident)k 8inputs+0outputs (0major+281minor)pagefaults 0swaps It took 19 seconds. I don't have a clue what evasive actions Linux took: multiple reads, bus resets, or whatever. So I don't know how long the disk was in limbo for exactly one attempt. I wish that the system could query the disk "Just what are you up to? Should I be patient? Are we nearly there?" Then the driver could make more informed decisions. "smartctl -x" shows that the drive does have SCT ERC. Who knows it the disk is lying (some disks do lie about some of their capabilities). This is what smartctl reported: SCT capabilities: (0x003d) SCT Status supported. SCT Error Recovery Control supported. SCT Feature Control supported. SCT Data Table supported. The ERC feature was not actually being used: SCT Error Recovery Control: Read: Disabled Write: Disabled -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 18:06:58 2013 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:06:58 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? Message-ID: <51266242.90502@ss.org> This is a wisdom of the crowd question. If I had to use Git in a windows environment, what utilities would you recommend to make it easier? So far I've found. http://msysgit.github.com/ If I was to make git more accessible for a first time user, what GUIs have people found worth while? Please limit your answers to git. I know there are equally capable other revision control systems, but they are not the focus of my inquiry. Thanks, -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 18:16:44 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:16:44 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: <51266242.90502-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > This is a wisdom of the crowd question. > > If I had to use Git in a windows environment, what utilities would you > recommend to make it easier? > > So far I've found. http://msysgit.github.com/ > > If I was to make git more accessible for a first time user, what GUIs have > people found worth while? I don't always use Windows but when I do, I use TortoiseGit (which uses msysgit under the hood) -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 18:16:39 2013 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:16:39 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: <51266242.90502-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> Message-ID: <20130221181639.GA13557@watson-wilson.ca> Scott, I have no experience with Git and Windows. http://windows.github.com/ http://git-scm.com/downloads http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/01/microsoft-embraces-git-with-new-tfs-support-visual-studio-integration/ -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 18:19:59 2013 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:19:59 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> Message-ID: Echoing for TortoiseGit. I used it and TortiseSVN in windows environments. Definately gets the job done. Will Weaver -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 18:40:09 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:40:09 -0500 Subject: RAID without TLER In-Reply-To: References: <20130219171127.GH20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130220162443.GI20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130220202637.GJ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130221184009.GK20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 12:51:35PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Based on anecdotes? Based on long-obsolete models? Of course you > might be right. Based on the firmware disasters on the 1 and 1.5TB drives, and the fact that they couldn't even implement SATA correctly initially making them incompatible with the most popular SATA controller early on (the Silicon image ones). > I personally hold a grudge against Seagate for how they handled the > 7200.11 firmware bug. That's not anecdote, that's observed behaviour > of the company. Yeah that one is a huge problem. The crappy head park design on the laptop drive in my wife's laptop didn't impress me either when a small bump made the drive tear the head of using the head park mechanism (which is a flimsy piece of plastic). Reading up on recovery methods for those drives found a lot of people working in the recovery industry that certainly didn't have anything nice to say about seagate laptop drives. Seagate used to make really good drives. I no longer think that is their goal in life. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 18:41:42 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:41:42 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> Message-ID: <20130221184142.GL20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 01:19:59PM -0500, William Weaver wrote: > Echoing for TortoiseGit. I used it and TortiseSVN in windows environments. > Definately gets the job done. Yeah gets the job done, but what a shitty interface it is. I wonder what microsoft's git interface in visual studio is going to be like. I have heard of a commercial product called smartgit (as far as I remember) that I haven't seen, although some people use it at work. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 18:50:08 2013 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:50:08 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: <20130221184142.GL20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> <20130221184142.GL20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Yea, I used it's direct integration with explorer and it suited my purposes well enough. It's not amazing but it's good and free. Will Weaver On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 01:19:59PM -0500, William Weaver wrote: > > Echoing for TortoiseGit. I used it and TortiseSVN in windows > environments. > > Definately gets the job done. > > Yeah gets the job done, but what a shitty interface it is. > > I wonder what microsoft's git interface in visual studio is going to > be like. > > I have heard of a commercial product called smartgit (as far as I > remember) that I haven't seen, although some people use it at work. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 18:50:09 2013 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:50:09 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: <51266242.90502-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> Message-ID: <51266C61.8010804@mylesbraithwaite.com> I use what ever they are using at git-scm.com: (will auto start downloading). But if you are using an IDE it best to use a plugin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 20:47:29 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:47:29 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> Message-ID: <512687E1.2060202@ve3syb.ca> On 13-02-21 01:16 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I don't always use Windows but when I do, I use TortoiseGit > (which uses msysgit under the > hood) On the rare occasions when I am in Windows and need to do something with git I use TortoiseGit. It's integration with Windows Explorer is also handy. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 21 22:37:36 2013 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 17:37:36 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required Message-ID: All this talk of drive features has got me questioning my backup strategy, which is somewhere between ad hoc and none at all. I'm considering setting up the following box: * QNAP TS-419P II 4-bay NAS: < http://www.qnap.com/useng/?lang=en-us&sn=862&c=355&sc=688&t=695&n=3888> * 4x WD Red 2TB drives. * Crashplan cloud backup for all my (cross-platform) machines and the NAS itself. Anything that can't run Crashplan (not sure how well the Java client would run on a Raspberry Pi ...) would rsync to the NAS box, which itself would be running Crashplan. The QNAP is a little ARM Linux box. I'm not really looking to build a custom box unless it's cheaper, quieter and uses less power than the QNAP. It supports a bunch of RAID levels, so could in theory could be a 6TB RAID5, or a 4TB RAID6 (less the usual system and marketing overhead). I'm more interested in data integrity than flat-out transfer speed. If a single drive failed, would either of these RAID levels be able to realistically carry on without data loss until I replaced the faulty unit? Is it really worth going for non-sequential serial numbers on the drives? Apart from buying a single drive from different stores, how would one do this? Wisdom appreciated, thanks. Point-and-laugh is also okay, as long as you say why, and what you'd do better. cheers, Stewart -- http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 01:31:43 2013 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 20:31:43 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130221203143.3a5da22dccbaf8b99982c2d8@eol.ca> On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 17:37:36 -0500 Stewart Russell wrote: > All this talk of drive features has got me questioning my backup strategy, > which is somewhere between ad hoc and none at all. I'm considering setting > up the following box: > * QNAP TS-419P II 4-bay NAS: < > http://www.qnap.com/useng/?lang=en-us&sn=862&c=355&sc=688&t=695&n=3888> > * 4x WD Red 2TB drives. > * Crashplan cloud backup for all my (cross-platform) machines and the NAS > itself. Anything that can't run Crashplan (not sure how well the Java > client would run on a Raspberry Pi ...) would rsync to the NAS box, which > itself would be running Crashplan. > > ... Stewart, My back up strategy is my second hard drive. I use tar to back up /home every night, /etc every week, and /usr/local every month. Periodically, I copy the tarballs to disc. I now have a BluRay burner, so I do not have to compress the backups. Recently, just for the heck of it, I did a recovery from the BluRay and I verified that everything worked. I burn the tarball directly to the disc. I don't make an ISO. Only I need to read this stuff. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 02:03:40 2013 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:03:40 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: <51266242.90502-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> Message-ID: plastic scm is by far the best scm. you are using git, but plastic front end can be used against git backend so you may want to give that a try. it is a fantastic front end. i use a full plastic solution on Linux and win,has osx as will. .tl On Feb 21, 2013 1:07 PM, "Scott Sullivan" wrote: > This is a wisdom of the crowd question. > > If I had to use Git in a windows environment, what utilities would you > recommend to make it easier? > > So far I've found. http://msysgit.github.com/ > > If I was to make git more accessible for a first time user, what GUIs have > people found worth while? > > > > Please limit your answers to git. I know there are equally capable other > revision control systems, but they are not the focus of my inquiry. > > Thanks, > -- > Scott Sullivan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 02:27:41 2013 From: andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org (Andrew Cowie) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 13:27:41 +1100 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1361500061.14889.29.camel@turminder-xuss.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> On Thu, 2013-02-21 at 17:37 -0500, Stewart Russell wrote: > * QNAP TS-419P II 4-bay NAS: I have a Qnap of similar vintage; I have Ubuntu installed on it and it works fine as a backup target and media vault. Print server too, among other things. AfC Sydney -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 03:03:59 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 22:03:59 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: <20130221203143.3a5da22dccbaf8b99982c2d8-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130221203143.3a5da22dccbaf8b99982c2d8@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20130222030359.GA21055@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 08:31:43PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > I burn the tarball directly to the disc. I don't make an ISO. > Only I need to read this stuff. Hmm... what command (and options) do you use? Can you do that with DVD-RW or CD-RW? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 03:24:31 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 22:24:31 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130222032431.GB21055@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 05:37:36PM -0500, Stewart Russell wrote: > All this talk of drive features has got me questioning my backup strategy, > which is somewhere between ad hoc and none at all. I'm considering setting > up the following box: > * QNAP TS-419P II 4-bay NAS: < > http://www.qnap.com/useng/?lang=en-us&sn=862&c=355&sc=688&t=695&n=3888> > * 4x WD Red 2TB drives. > * Crashplan cloud backup for all my (cross-platform) machines and the NAS > itself. Anything that can't run Crashplan (not sure how well the Java > client would run on a Raspberry Pi ...) would rsync to the NAS box, which > itself would be running Crashplan. > > The QNAP is a little ARM Linux box. I'm not really looking to build a > custom box unless it's cheaper, quieter and uses less power than the QNAP. > It supports a bunch of RAID levels, so could in theory could be a 6TB > RAID5, or a 4TB RAID6 (less the usual system and marketing overhead). I'm > more interested in data integrity than flat-out transfer speed. > > If a single drive failed, would either of these RAID levels be able to > realistically carry on without data loss until I replaced the faulty unit? > > Is it really worth going for non-sequential serial numbers on the drives? > Apart from buying a single drive from different stores, how would one do > this? > > Wisdom appreciated, thanks. Point-and-laugh is also okay, as long as you > say why, and what you'd do better. > > cheers, > Stewart I would've gone with 4-bay USB3 external instead. It's local mount, and you can simply do "rsync" daily and "rsync --delete" weekly. I'm currently doing daily rsync to RAID10 as backup. I personally don't own NAS. But, watching people who do, I don't want to maintain/upgrade yet another machine. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 03:39:19 2013 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 22:39:19 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: <51266242.90502-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> Message-ID: <20130222033919.GT19974@adb.ca> Scott Sullivan wrote: > This is a wisdom of the crowd question. > > If I had to use Git in a windows environment, what utilities would you > recommend to make it easier? > > So far I've found. http://msysgit.github.com/ I was talking to a couple of Windows git users recently, one of whom recommended msysgit and/or Smartgit (commercial), while the other was a temporarily-displaced Unix user who recommended installing Cygwin and using traditional commandline git thereunder. Your mileage may vary. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 13:25:58 2013 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:25:58 -0300 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: <20130222032431.GB21055-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130222032431.GB21055@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: I have a discontinued Chumby Hacker Board running Debian, samba, with a external USB disk and connected to my network. On my computers I have d?j?-dup running, and backing my home every day. I have it working for 2+ years, and I am happy with it. Chumby is even my torrentbox and I can play my movies straight from that USB disk. I intend to upgrade my Chumby to a RasPi some day int he future, but as Chumby is running fine, I think I will keep it as it is. Mauro http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. 2013/2/22 William Park > On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 05:37:36PM -0500, Stewart Russell wrote: > > All this talk of drive features has got me questioning my backup > strategy, > > which is somewhere between ad hoc and none at all. I'm considering > setting > > up the following box: > > * QNAP TS-419P II 4-bay NAS: < > > http://www.qnap.com/useng/?lang=en-us&sn=862&c=355&sc=688&t=695&n=3888> > > * 4x WD Red 2TB drives. > > * Crashplan cloud backup for all my (cross-platform) machines and the > NAS > > itself. Anything that can't run Crashplan (not sure how well the Java > > client would run on a Raspberry Pi ...) would rsync to the NAS box, which > > itself would be running Crashplan. > > > > The QNAP is a little ARM Linux box. I'm not really looking to build a > > custom box unless it's cheaper, quieter and uses less power than the > QNAP. > > It supports a bunch of RAID levels, so could in theory could be a 6TB > > RAID5, or a 4TB RAID6 (less the usual system and marketing overhead). I'm > > more interested in data integrity than flat-out transfer speed. > > > > If a single drive failed, would either of these RAID levels be able to > > realistically carry on without data loss until I replaced the faulty > unit? > > > > Is it really worth going for non-sequential serial numbers on the drives? > > Apart from buying a single drive from different stores, how would one do > > this? > > > > Wisdom appreciated, thanks. Point-and-laugh is also okay, as long as you > > say why, and what you'd do better. > > > > cheers, > > Stewart > > I would've gone with 4-bay USB3 external instead. It's local mount, and > you can simply do "rsync" daily and "rsync --delete" weekly. I'm > currently doing daily rsync to RAID10 as backup. I personally don't own > NAS. But, watching people who do, I don't want to maintain/upgrade yet > another machine. > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 13:29:03 2013 From: thoriumbr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mauro Souza) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:29:03 -0300 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: <20130222033919.GT19974-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> <20130222033919.GT19974@adb.ca> Message-ID: I was wondering why nobody had suggested Cygwin yet. For sad Linux users trapped inside Windows, Cygwin is a good environment to use. Mauro http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. 2013/2/22 Anthony de Boer > Scott Sullivan wrote: > > This is a wisdom of the crowd question. > > > > If I had to use Git in a windows environment, what utilities would you > > recommend to make it easier? > > > > So far I've found. http://msysgit.github.com/ > > I was talking to a couple of Windows git users recently, one of whom > recommended msysgit and/or Smartgit (commercial), while the other was a > temporarily-displaced Unix user who recommended installing Cygwin and > using traditional commandline git thereunder. Your mileage may vary. > > -- > Anthony de Boer > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 13:55:41 2013 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 08:55:41 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> <20130222033919.GT19974@adb.ca> Message-ID: <20130222135541.GA17587@watson-wilson.ca> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 10:29:03AM -0300, Mauro Souza wrote: > I was wondering why nobody had suggested Cygwin yet. For sad Linux users > trapped inside Windows, Cygwin is a good environment to use. Cygwin is a last resort for me. It's non trial to setup and maintain. Anti-virus software can play havoc with it. Cygwin is not for the faint of heart. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 14:00:27 2013 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:00:27 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> <20130222033919.GT19974@adb.ca> Message-ID: <2947A3FC-EF97-4C95-823C-AF21B91A344E@mylesbraithwaite.com> Cygwin doesn't have a Git package yet so you would have to compile it yourself. But it is good for installing bash on Windows. On 2013-02-22, at 8:29 AM, Mauro Souza wrote: > I was wondering why nobody had suggested Cygwin yet. For sad Linux users trapped inside Windows, Cygwin is a good environment to use. > > Mauro > http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 > Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. > > > 2013/2/22 Anthony de Boer >> Scott Sullivan wrote: >> > This is a wisdom of the crowd question. >> > >> > If I had to use Git in a windows environment, what utilities would you >> > recommend to make it easier? >> > >> > So far I've found. http://msysgit.github.com/ >> >> I was talking to a couple of Windows git users recently, one of whom >> recommended msysgit and/or Smartgit (commercial), while the other was a >> temporarily-displaced Unix user who recommended installing Cygwin and >> using traditional commandline git thereunder. Your mileage may vary. >> >> -- >> Anthony de Boer >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 15:10:58 2013 From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:10:58 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: References: <20130222032431.GB21055@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: I run debian on a DreamPlug ( http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-dreamplugdetails.aspx ) that has an eSATA JBoD box hooked up to it with software RAID1. It runs samba for sharing media, BackupPC for rsync backups of the other computers in the house, Transmission Daemon for downloads, and a few other things. The eSATA connection is faster than USB, although in hindsight, I sort of wish I'd bought an eSATA box with hardware RAID as the little ARM processor struggles occasionally with the software RAID. I've been running this for around 6 months now and it's been fine. Need to do some rewiring of the house though so that my Boxee Box can stop using wireless for streaming, but that's nothing to do with backup solutions. -jason On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Mauro Souza wrote: > I have a discontinued Chumby Hacker Board running Debian, samba, with a > external USB disk and connected to my network. On my computers I have > d?j?-dup running, and backing my home every day. I have it working for 2+ > years, and I am happy with it. Chumby is even my torrentbox and I can play > my movies straight from that USB disk. > I intend to upgrade my Chumby to a RasPi some day int he future, but as > Chumby is running fine, I think I will keep it as it is. > > Mauro > http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 > Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. > > > 2013/2/22 William Park >> >> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 05:37:36PM -0500, Stewart Russell wrote: >> > All this talk of drive features has got me questioning my backup >> > strategy, >> > which is somewhere between ad hoc and none at all. I'm considering >> > setting >> > up the following box: >> > * QNAP TS-419P II 4-bay NAS: < >> > http://www.qnap.com/useng/?lang=en-us&sn=862&c=355&sc=688&t=695&n=3888> >> > * 4x WD Red 2TB drives. >> > * Crashplan cloud backup for all my (cross-platform) machines and the >> > NAS >> > itself. Anything that can't run Crashplan (not sure how well the Java >> > client would run on a Raspberry Pi ...) would rsync to the NAS box, >> > which >> > itself would be running Crashplan. >> > >> > The QNAP is a little ARM Linux box. I'm not really looking to build a >> > custom box unless it's cheaper, quieter and uses less power than the >> > QNAP. >> > It supports a bunch of RAID levels, so could in theory could be a 6TB >> > RAID5, or a 4TB RAID6 (less the usual system and marketing overhead). >> > I'm >> > more interested in data integrity than flat-out transfer speed. >> > >> > If a single drive failed, would either of these RAID levels be able to >> > realistically carry on without data loss until I replaced the faulty >> > unit? >> > >> > Is it really worth going for non-sequential serial numbers on the >> > drives? >> > Apart from buying a single drive from different stores, how would one do >> > this? >> > >> > Wisdom appreciated, thanks. Point-and-laugh is also okay, as long as you >> > say why, and what you'd do better. >> > >> > cheers, >> > Stewart >> >> I would've gone with 4-bay USB3 external instead. It's local mount, and >> you can simply do "rsync" daily and "rsync --delete" weekly. I'm >> currently doing daily rsync to RAID10 as backup. I personally don't own >> NAS. But, watching people who do, I don't want to maintain/upgrade yet >> another machine. >> -- >> William >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 16:23:21 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:23:21 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> <20130222033919.GT19974@adb.ca> Message-ID: <51279B79.80809@ve3syb.ca> On 13-02-22 08:29 AM, Mauro Souza wrote: > I was wondering why nobody had suggested Cygwin yet. For sad Linux users > trapped inside Windows, Cygwin is a good environment to use. Cygwin is one option that a number of people use when doing cross-platform development. I went the MinGW/MSYS route. I get a GCC compiler environment, a bash shell, and a lot of command line *nix programs. Before MinGW/MSYS I was using some of the command line *nix tools that were part of the DJGPP suite. I don't know if there is a git available for it as I wasn't even using SVN when I was last using the DJGPP tools. It shouldn't be too hard to compile git in that environment. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 17:19:26 2013 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:19:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: References: <20130222032431.GB21055@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1361553566.64385.YahooMailNeo@web120803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Can I ask where you bought the DreamPlug? I can't find it in the usual suspects in Canada. I'm looking for a cheap small factor silent (no movable parts) ?PC with 2 Eth ports. Thanks! ? --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jason Shaw > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 10:10:58 AM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Little linux backup box - wisdom required > > I run debian on a DreamPlug ( > http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-dreamplugdetails.aspx ) that > has an eSATA JBoD box hooked up to it with software RAID1.? It runs > samba for sharing media, BackupPC for rsync backups of the other > computers in the house, Transmission Daemon for downloads, and a few > other things.? The eSATA connection is faster than USB, although in > hindsight, I sort of wish I'd bought an eSATA box with hardware RAID > as the little ARM processor struggles occasionally with the software > RAID. > > I've been running this for around 6 months now and it's been fine. > Need to do some rewiring of the house though so that my Boxee Box can > stop using wireless for streaming, but that's nothing to do with > backup solutions. > > -jason > > On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Mauro Souza wrote: >> I have a discontinued Chumby Hacker Board running Debian, samba, with a >> external USB disk and connected to my network. On my computers I have >> d?j?-dup running, and backing my home every day. I have it working for 2+ >> years, and I am happy with it. Chumby is even my torrentbox and I can play >> my movies straight from that USB disk. >> I intend to upgrade my Chumby to a RasPi some day int he future, but as >> Chumby is running fine, I think I will keep it as it is. >> >> Mauro >> http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 >> Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. >> >> >> 2013/2/22 William Park >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 05:37:36PM -0500, Stewart Russell wrote: >>> > All this talk of drive features has got me questioning my backup >>> > strategy, >>> > which is somewhere between ad hoc and none at all. I'm > considering >>> > setting >>> > up the following box: >>> > * QNAP TS-419P II 4-bay NAS: < >>> > > http://www.qnap.com/useng/?lang=en-us&sn=862&c=355&sc=688&t=695&n=3888> >>> > * 4x WD Red 2TB drives. >>> > * Crashplan cloud backup for all my (cross-platform)? machines and > the >>> > NAS >>> > itself. Anything that can't run Crashplan (not sure how well > the Java >>> > client would run on a Raspberry Pi ...) would rsync to the NAS > box, >>> > which >>> > itself would be running Crashplan. >>> > >>> > The QNAP is a little ARM Linux box. I'm not really looking to > build a >>> > custom box unless it's cheaper, quieter and uses less power > than the >>> > QNAP. >>> > It supports a bunch of RAID levels, so could in theory could be a > 6TB >>> > RAID5, or a 4TB RAID6 (less the usual system and marketing > overhead). >>> > I'm >>> > more interested in data integrity than flat-out transfer speed. >>> > >>> > If a single drive failed, would either of these RAID levels be > able to >>> > realistically carry on without data loss until I replaced the > faulty >>> > unit? >>> > >>> > Is it really worth going for non-sequential serial numbers on the >>> > drives? >>> > Apart from buying a single drive from different stores, how would > one do >>> > this? >>> > >>> > Wisdom appreciated, thanks. Point-and-laugh is also okay, as long > as you >>> > say why, and what you'd do better. >>> > >>> > cheers, >>> >? Stewart >>> >>> I would've gone with 4-bay USB3 external instead.? It's local > mount, and >>> you can simply do "rsync" daily and "rsync > --delete" weekly.? I'm >>> currently doing daily rsync to RAID10 as backup.? I personally > don't own >>> NAS.? But, watching people who do, I don't want to maintain/upgrade > yet >>> another machine. >>> -- >>> William >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 17:35:36 2013 From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:35:36 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: <1361553566.64385.YahooMailNeo-4IE30E7YIUj35Xbc4wGBzZOW+3bF1jUfVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <20130222032431.GB21055@node1.opengeometry.net> <1361553566.64385.YahooMailNeo@web120803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I picked mine up from kijiji, but a coworker ordered his straight from Global Scale - https://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/p-54-dreamplug-devkit.aspx My only real gripe with it is that the LEDs are extremely bright, so I keep a piece of heavy card stock taped over them. -jason On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Fernando Duran wrote: > Can I ask where you bought the DreamPlug? I can't find it in the usual suspects in Canada. I'm looking for a cheap small factor silent (no movable parts) PC with 2 Eth ports. > > Thanks! > > --------------------- > Fernando Duran > http://www.fduran.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jason Shaw >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Cc: >> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 10:10:58 AM >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Little linux backup box - wisdom required >> >> I run debian on a DreamPlug ( >> http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-dreamplugdetails.aspx ) that >> has an eSATA JBoD box hooked up to it with software RAID1. It runs >> samba for sharing media, BackupPC for rsync backups of the other >> computers in the house, Transmission Daemon for downloads, and a few >> other things. The eSATA connection is faster than USB, although in >> hindsight, I sort of wish I'd bought an eSATA box with hardware RAID >> as the little ARM processor struggles occasionally with the software >> RAID. >> >> I've been running this for around 6 months now and it's been fine. >> Need to do some rewiring of the house though so that my Boxee Box can >> stop using wireless for streaming, but that's nothing to do with >> backup solutions. >> >> -jason >> >> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Mauro Souza wrote: >>> I have a discontinued Chumby Hacker Board running Debian, samba, with a >>> external USB disk and connected to my network. On my computers I have >>> d?j?-dup running, and backing my home every day. I have it working for 2+ >>> years, and I am happy with it. Chumby is even my torrentbox and I can play >>> my movies straight from that USB disk. >>> I intend to upgrade my Chumby to a RasPi some day int he future, but as >>> Chumby is running fine, I think I will keep it as it is. >>> >>> Mauro >>> http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521 >>> Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. >>> >>> >>> 2013/2/22 William Park >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 05:37:36PM -0500, Stewart Russell wrote: >>>> > All this talk of drive features has got me questioning my backup >>>> > strategy, >>>> > which is somewhere between ad hoc and none at all. I'm >> considering >>>> > setting >>>> > up the following box: >>>> > * QNAP TS-419P II 4-bay NAS: < >>>> > >> http://www.qnap.com/useng/?lang=en-us&sn=862&c=355&sc=688&t=695&n=3888> >>>> > * 4x WD Red 2TB drives. >>>> > * Crashplan cloud backup for all my (cross-platform) machines and >> the >>>> > NAS >>>> > itself. Anything that can't run Crashplan (not sure how well >> the Java >>>> > client would run on a Raspberry Pi ...) would rsync to the NAS >> box, >>>> > which >>>> > itself would be running Crashplan. >>>> > >>>> > The QNAP is a little ARM Linux box. I'm not really looking to >> build a >>>> > custom box unless it's cheaper, quieter and uses less power >> than the >>>> > QNAP. >>>> > It supports a bunch of RAID levels, so could in theory could be a >> 6TB >>>> > RAID5, or a 4TB RAID6 (less the usual system and marketing >> overhead). >>>> > I'm >>>> > more interested in data integrity than flat-out transfer speed. >>>> > >>>> > If a single drive failed, would either of these RAID levels be >> able to >>>> > realistically carry on without data loss until I replaced the >> faulty >>>> > unit? >>>> > >>>> > Is it really worth going for non-sequential serial numbers on the >>>> > drives? >>>> > Apart from buying a single drive from different stores, how would >> one do >>>> > this? >>>> > >>>> > Wisdom appreciated, thanks. Point-and-laugh is also okay, as long >> as you >>>> > say why, and what you'd do better. >>>> > >>>> > cheers, >>>> > Stewart >>>> >>>> I would've gone with 4-bay USB3 external instead. It's local >> mount, and >>>> you can simply do "rsync" daily and "rsync >> --delete" weekly. I'm >>>> currently doing daily rsync to RAID10 as backup. I personally >> don't own >>>> NAS. But, watching people who do, I don't want to maintain/upgrade >> yet >>>> another machine. >>>> -- >>>> William >>>> -- >>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >>> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 17:57:56 2013 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:56 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: <20130222030359.GA21055-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130221203143.3a5da22dccbaf8b99982c2d8@eol.ca> <20130222030359.GA21055@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130222125756.dc5fbd46517169289677b093@eol.ca> On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 22:03:59 -0500 William Park wrote: > On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 08:31:43PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > > I burn the tarball directly to the disc. I don't make an ISO. > > Only I need to read this stuff. > > Hmm... what command (and options) do you use? Can you do that with > DVD-RW or CD-RW? > -- > William William, This varies depending on your setup and probably your brand of Linux. Note that I am logged in as root. How I burn to my DVD... # growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/sr1=/backup/RevHome.01; eject /dev/sr1 How I burn to my Blu-ray... # growisofs -Z /dev/sr0=/backup/RevHome.01; eject /dev/sr0 For CDs, I used to go... # cdrecord -v speed=4 dev=ATA:1,0,0 /backup/RevHome.01 My old CD burner was SCSI. /backup/RevHome.01 is my backup file, in whatever format I chose. Basically, the standard for CDs, DVDs and Blu-rays that everyone can read is ISO9660. Actually, you can burn whatever you damn well please to them. For backups, either you don't care about other people, or you actively hate them. You just have to log in as root and use the command line. I have used Brasero to burn an ISO file to DVD. Maybe it will burn other stuff. Recovering the files from DVD is easy... # tar tvf /dev/sr1 -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 22 19:13:43 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 14:13:43 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130222191343.GM20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 05:37:36PM -0500, Stewart Russell wrote: > All this talk of drive features has got me questioning my backup strategy, > which is somewhere between ad hoc and none at all. I'm considering setting > up the following box: > * QNAP TS-419P II 4-bay NAS: < > http://www.qnap.com/useng/?lang=en-us&sn=862&c=355&sc=688&t=695&n=3888> > * 4x WD Red 2TB drives. > * Crashplan cloud backup for all my (cross-platform) machines and the NAS > itself. Anything that can't run Crashplan (not sure how well the Java > client would run on a Raspberry Pi ...) would rsync to the NAS box, which > itself would be running Crashplan. > > The QNAP is a little ARM Linux box. I'm not really looking to build a > custom box unless it's cheaper, quieter and uses less power than the QNAP. > It supports a bunch of RAID levels, so could in theory could be a 6TB > RAID5, or a 4TB RAID6 (less the usual system and marketing overhead). I'm > more interested in data integrity than flat-out transfer speed. > > If a single drive failed, would either of these RAID levels be able to > realistically carry on without data loss until I replaced the faulty unit? > > Is it really worth going for non-sequential serial numbers on the drives? > Apart from buying a single drive from different stores, how would one do > this? > > Wisdom appreciated, thanks. Point-and-laugh is also okay, as long as you > say why, and what you'd do better. Anything other than RAID0 can handle a single disk failing. RAID6 can handle two disks failing. The performance might drop while a disk has failed depending on the implementation. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 23 05:18:25 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:18:25 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: <20130222125756.dc5fbd46517169289677b093-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130221203143.3a5da22dccbaf8b99982c2d8@eol.ca> <20130222030359.GA21055@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130222125756.dc5fbd46517169289677b093@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20130223051825.GA11031@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 12:57:56PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 22:03:59 -0500 > William Park wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 08:31:43PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > > > I burn the tarball directly to the disc. I don't make an ISO. > > > Only I need to read this stuff. > > > > Hmm... what command (and options) do you use? Can you do that with > > DVD-RW or CD-RW? > How I burn to my DVD... > # growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/sr1=/backup/RevHome.01; eject /dev/sr1 > > How I burn to my Blu-ray... > # growisofs -Z /dev/sr0=/backup/RevHome.01; eject /dev/sr0 > > For CDs, I used to go... > # cdrecord -v speed=4 dev=ATA:1,0,0 /backup/RevHome.01 I was able to write to and read back from CD using "cdrecord". But, my version of "growisofs -version" * growisofs by , version 7.1, front-ending to mkisofs: mkisofs 3.01a08 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) Copyright (C) 1993-1997 Eric Youngdale (C) 1997-2010 Joerg Schilling is refusing to write regular files to DVD. What version is yours? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 23 05:19:09 2013 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:09 -0500 Subject: Little linux backup box - wisdom required In-Reply-To: <20130223051825.GA11031-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130221203143.3a5da22dccbaf8b99982c2d8@eol.ca> <20130222030359.GA21055@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130222125756.dc5fbd46517169289677b093@eol.ca> <20130223051825.GA11031@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130223001909.b4d28caa9dc431a64cebbebe@eol.ca> On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:18:25 -0500 William Park wrote: > > I was able to write to and read back from CD using "cdrecord". But, my > version of "growisofs -version" > > * growisofs by , version 7.1, > front-ending to mkisofs: mkisofs 3.01a08 > (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) Copyright (C) 1993-1997 Eric Youngdale > (C) 1997-2010 Joerg Schilling > > is refusing to write regular files to DVD. What version is yours? > -- > William William, Interesting output from command line of my Fedora 17 system... [howard at rev ~]$ growisofs --version * growisofs by , version 7.1, front-ending to mkisofs: mkisofs 2.01 is not what you see here. This line is only a fake for too clever GUIs and other frontend applications. In fact, this program is: genisoimage 1.1.11 (Linux) [howard at rev ~]$ When I get new equipment, I have to hack around with it a bit. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 23 08:00:18 2013 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 03:00:18 -0500 Subject: Found a replacement power supply (Corsair TX650M) In-Reply-To: <20130213224134.GD20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <51180568.2040508@ve3syb.ca> <20130211173241.GA20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <511C11CF.7040800@ve3syb.ca> <20130213224134.GD20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <51287712.70701@ve3syb.ca> On 13-02-13 05:41 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I have had good luck only buying what hardwaresecrets.com has given an > award in a review. > > Going by brand, series or anything else doesn't work since they don't > make them themselves and different sizes in a given series can be > totally different. Buying something recommended, or given an award, by a site you feel you can trust is a good strategy. My research confirms that the name on the box seldom reflects who actually made the supply. I found a good web page that lists the names of manufacturers of various supplies. For future reference by others who may need a supply in the future, the URL is: http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/psu_manufacturers > About all you can be sure of is that if it has no name at all, it is a > piece of junk. :) Definitely true. A lot of the names on the supplies mean nothing to me as I don't have any first hand experience with those manufacturers. In the end I settled on the TX650M (modular version of the TX650). It meant paying a bit more than I wanted and a switch of manufacturer from Seasonic to Channel Well. I wasn't comfortable going with the CX600M after seeing how one CX600 died. The supply arrived about three days ago. Modular was definitely the way to go as I wouldn't have had room in the mid-size tower box for the full set of cables that are typically found on higher wattage supplies. I didn't need any of the modular cables but I did use two peripheral to SATA adapters from the old supply. It took me about between 1.5 and 2 hours to take out the old supply, give the box a thorough cleaning to remove dust and cobwebs, put in the new supply and run the wires and connect everything back up. I had to fight with the power connection for the top DVD, the last connection I had to make. Once that was sorted out, I closed up the box, crossed my fingers and hit the power switch. The machine started up right away. It all looks good so far. I may write up a more detailed set of comments and review for my website later. What I didn't think to do during all this was to take before, during, and after pictures of the whole process. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 23 21:14:44 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 16:14:44 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router Message-ID: Way back in 2011, Lennart was recommending the D-Link router, the DIR825 rev B. Unfortunately it doesn't appear on Canada Computers site or anywhere else I can find. It seems to still be available from d-linkshop.ca as a 'Top Seller' but it doesn't show whether it is the preferred 'rev B'. Is there something comparable, particularly with Shareport, that is likewise recommended? Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 23 22:05:20 2013 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 17:05:20 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51293D20.1040007@ss.org> On 02/23/2013 04:14 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > Way back in 2011, Lennart was recommending the D-Link router, the DIR825 > rev B. Unfortunately it doesn't appear on Canada Computers site or > anywhere else I can find. > > It seems to still be available from d-linkshop.ca > as a 'Top Seller' but it doesn't show whether it is the preferred 'rev B'. > > Is there something comparable, particularly with Shareport, that is > likewise recommended? > > Thanks! > I've got a DIR825 rev B with OpenWRT that I've been using at home as well (from the same recommendation). Now, at work and for various personal projects I've been leaning towards TP-Link products. They have good build quality and reliable performance. In the category your looking for, I've heard some well researched recommendations for the TL-WDR4300. http://www.tp-link.com/ca/products/details/?categoryid=&model=TL-WDR4300 http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/tl-wdr4300 http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_1046_1047&item_id=050695 -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 24 05:42:25 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 00:42:25 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: <51293D20.1040007-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <51293D20.1040007@ss.org> Message-ID: <20130224054224.GA12470@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 05:05:20PM -0500, Scott Sullivan wrote: > On 02/23/2013 04:14 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > >Way back in 2011, Lennart was recommending the D-Link router, the DIR825 > >rev B. Unfortunately it doesn't appear on Canada Computers site or > >anywhere else I can find. > > > >It seems to still be available from d-linkshop.ca > >as a 'Top Seller' but it doesn't show whether it is the preferred 'rev B'. > > > >Is there something comparable, particularly with Shareport, that is > >likewise recommended? > > > >Thanks! > > > > I've got a DIR825 rev B with OpenWRT that I've been using at home as > well (from the same recommendation). > > Now, at work and for various personal projects I've been leaning > towards TP-Link products. They have good build quality and reliable > performance. > > In the category your looking for, I've heard some well researched > recommendations for the TL-WDR4300. > > http://www.tp-link.com/ca/products/details/?categoryid=&model=TL-WDR4300 > http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/tl-wdr4300 > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_1046_1047&item_id=050695 Well, I have TP-Link WDR4300. It's ok as wireless router, but forget about doing wireless bridge with this. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 24 12:36:30 2013 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 07:36:30 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: <20130224054224.GA12470-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <51293D20.1040007@ss.org> <20130224054224.GA12470@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <512A094E.1050203@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > Well, I have TP-Link WDR4300. It's ok as wireless router, but forget > about doing wireless bridge with this. While not dual band, the TP-Link TL-WA901ND can certainly be used as a bridge. That's one of the modes it supports. I have one as my non-router access point. I rely on Linux on a computer for a router/firewall. It's a nice access point that supports PoE and has a few different modes. It also supports VLANs and multiple SSIDs. It's available at Canada Computers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 01:13:37 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 20:13:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: <20130224054224.GA12470-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <51293D20.1040007@ss.org> <20130224054224.GA12470@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: | From: William Park | Well, I have TP-Link WDR4300. It's ok as wireless router, but forget | about doing wireless bridge with this. Is that with original firmware or with OpenWRT? The hardware looks to be very good for OpenWWRT. I never expect much from original firmware. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jarl.stefansson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 01:27:03 2013 From: jarl.stefansson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jarl Stefansson) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 20:27:03 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: References: <51293D20.1040007@ss.org> <20130224054224.GA12470@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: I just purchased a TL-WR2543N from Canada Computers, for $90 it does pretty much everything I need and has detachable antennas. OpenWRT was a breeze to install, use built in firmware update utility via a browser. R. Jarl On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:13 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: William Park > > | Well, I have TP-Link WDR4300. It's ok as wireless router, but forget > | about doing wireless bridge with this. > > Is that with original firmware or with OpenWRT? > > The hardware looks to be very good for OpenWWRT. I never expect much > from original firmware. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Regards, Jarl Stefansson jarl.stefansson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org +1-416-888-6908 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 07:39:43 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 02:39:43 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: References: <51293D20.1040007@ss.org> <20130224054224.GA12470@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130225073943.GA2054@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 08:13:37PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: William Park > > | Well, I have TP-Link WDR4300. It's ok as wireless router, but forget > | about doing wireless bridge with this. > > Is that with original firmware or with OpenWRT? > > The hardware looks to be very good for OpenWWRT. I never expect much > from original firmware. I did upgrade the firmware to the latest. I haven't tried OpenWRT, because if it screws up, then I have a dead router. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 17:20:44 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 12:20:44 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 04:14:44PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Way back in 2011, Lennart was recommending the D-Link router, the DIR825 > rev B. Unfortunately it doesn't appear on Canada Computers site or anywhere > else I can find. > > It seems to still be available from d-linkshop.ca as a 'Top Seller' but it > doesn't show whether it is the preferred 'rev B'. > > Is there something comparable, particularly with Shareport, that is > likewise recommended? See if you can find this: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/buffalo/wzr-600dhp 680MHz CPU, 32MB flash and 128MB ram and dual band is about as good as it gets. $100 at NCIX in markham. Out of stock at canadacomputers (but $84). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 18:38:49 2013 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:38:49 -0500 Subject: Having Trouble sending to txt.bell.ca Message-ID: <9f62a5ec1037f253329d626efc3b3b3d.squirrel@nray.ca> Hey all, I've got an auto-email setup running from a shell script. It sends fine to all the internal email addresses and sms messages to both rogers and telus cell customers, but does not send sms to bell customers. I've used both @txt.bell.ca and @txt.bellmobility.ca with no luck. Has anybody else ever seen something like this? Any thoughts on how to troubleshoot? Stephen ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 18:52:08 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:52:08 -0500 Subject: Having Trouble sending to txt.bell.ca In-Reply-To: <9f62a5ec1037f253329d626efc3b3b3d.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <9f62a5ec1037f253329d626efc3b3b3d.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <20130225185208.GA5649@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 01:38:49PM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > Hey all, > > I've got an auto-email setup running from a shell script. > It sends fine to all the internal email addresses and sms messages to both > rogers and telus cell customers, but does not send sms to bell customers. > I've used both @txt.bell.ca and > @txt.bellmobility.ca with no luck. > > Has anybody else ever seen something like this? Any thoughts on how to > troubleshoot? How do you send SMS text to Rogers cell number, anyways? I know that Rogers has free web-to-cell service, but emailing SMS text is new to me. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 19:00:52 2013 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:00:52 -0500 Subject: Having Trouble sending to txt.bell.ca In-Reply-To: <20130225185208.GA5649-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <9f62a5ec1037f253329d626efc3b3b3d.squirrel@nray.ca> <20130225185208.GA5649@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: > On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 01:38:49PM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: >> Hey all, >> >> I've got an auto-email setup running from a shell script. >> It sends fine to all the internal email addresses and sms messages to >> both >> rogers and telus cell customers, but does not send sms to bell >> customers. >> I've used both @txt.bell.ca and >> @txt.bellmobility.ca with no luck. >> >> Has anybody else ever seen something like this? Any thoughts on how to >> troubleshoot? > > How do you send SMS text to Rogers cell number, anyways? > I know that Rogers has free web-to-cell service, but emailing SMS text > is new to me. > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > William, @msg.telus.com will send to telus and koodo customers @pcs.rogers.com will send to rogers customers. @txt.bell.ca is supposed to send to bell customers, and works if I use an email client, but not if using the mail -s "Subject" email_user-9IKiO1iGCm/QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Stephen ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From s at sadiqs.com Mon Feb 25 19:01:05 2013 From: s at sadiqs.com (Sadiq Saif) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:01:05 -0500 Subject: Having Trouble sending to txt.bell.ca In-Reply-To: <20130225185208.GA5649-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <9f62a5ec1037f253329d626efc3b3b3d.squirrel@nray.ca> <20130225185208.GA5649@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <512BB4F1.1060106@sadiqs.com> On 2/25/2013 13:52, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 01:38:49PM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: >> Hey all, >> >> I've got an auto-email setup running from a shell script. >> It sends fine to all the internal email addresses and sms messages to both >> rogers and telus cell customers, but does not send sms to bell customers. >> I've used both @txt.bell.ca and >> @txt.bellmobility.ca with no luck. >> >> Has anybody else ever seen something like this? Any thoughts on how to >> troubleshoot? > > How do you send SMS text to Rogers cell number, anyways? > I know that Rogers has free web-to-cell service, but emailing SMS text > is new to me. It is: mynumber-N2cUGYwyuVJYzD5mSbZInQ at public.gmane.org For other details/commands - http://goo.gl/r7heI (Link shortened because it is an ugly one.) -- Sadiq Saif -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 19:08:51 2013 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:08:51 -0500 Subject: Having Trouble sending to txt.bell.ca In-Reply-To: <20130225185208.GA5649-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <9f62a5ec1037f253329d626efc3b3b3d.squirrel@nray.ca> <20130225185208.GA5649@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <512BB6C3.5030501@dinamis.com> On 02/25/2013 01:52 PM, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 01:38:49PM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: >> Hey all, >> >> I've got an auto-email setup running from a shell script. >> It sends fine to all the internal email addresses and sms messages to both >> rogers and telus cell customers, but does not send sms to bell customers. >> I've used both @txt.bell.ca and >> @txt.bellmobility.ca with no luck. >> >> Has anybody else ever seen something like this? Any thoughts on how to >> troubleshoot? > How do you send SMS text to Rogers cell number, anyways? > I know that Rogers has free web-to-cell service, but emailing SMS text > is new to me. And some providers, like WIND which I use, don't have email to SMS gateways so I have workaround that I read about online. I set up a Twitter account specifically for my phone number and turned on SMS notifications for direct messages. If I want to send a text to my phone, I can send a direct message to my Twitter account and my phone will receive it. I also use IFTTT to notify me via SMS of every event on my Google calendar. It's pretty handy and free. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3230 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 19:46:51 2013 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:46:51 -0500 Subject: Having Trouble sending to txt.bell.ca In-Reply-To: <512BB6C3.5030501-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <9f62a5ec1037f253329d626efc3b3b3d.squirrel@nray.ca> <20130225185208.GA5649@node1.opengeometry.net> <512BB6C3.5030501@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <72fe2e43f6f1d9853172a0d9e2cc947a.squirrel@nray.ca> > On 02/25/2013 01:52 PM, William Park wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 01:38:49PM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: >>> Hey all, >>> >>> I've got an auto-email setup running from a shell script. >>> It sends fine to all the internal email addresses and sms messages to >>> both >>> rogers and telus cell customers, but does not send sms to bell >>> customers. >>> I've used both @txt.bell.ca and >>> @txt.bellmobility.ca with no luck. >>> >>> Has anybody else ever seen something like this? Any thoughts on how to >>> troubleshoot? >> How do you send SMS text to Rogers cell number, anyways? >> I know that Rogers has free web-to-cell service, but emailing SMS text >> is new to me. > > And some providers, like WIND which I use, don't have email to SMS > gateways so I have workaround that I read about online. I set up a > Twitter account specifically for my phone number and turned on SMS > notifications for direct messages. If I want to send a text to my phone, > I can send a direct message to my Twitter account and my phone will > receive it. > > I also use IFTTT to notify me via SMS of every > event on my Google calendar. It's pretty handy and free. > > -- > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis > 1419-3230 Yonge St. > Toronto, ON > Canada M4N 3P6 > > > +1 416-410-3326 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Thanks for that suggestion. I've found a simpler work-around for now. It appears that the bell system just objects when the addresses are part of a group. If I specify them individually they go through. Go figure. Stephen ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 20:17:14 2013 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:17:14 -0500 Subject: Having Trouble sending to txt.bell.ca In-Reply-To: <72fe2e43f6f1d9853172a0d9e2cc947a.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <9f62a5ec1037f253329d626efc3b3b3d.squirrel@nray.ca> <20130225185208.GA5649@node1.opengeometry.net> <512BB6C3.5030501@dinamis.com> <72fe2e43f6f1d9853172a0d9e2cc947a.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: Your outgoing mail client may not be using RFC 822 standards. Most gateways can interperet the following email to line bob-RCJoxwfniyM at public.gmane.org, santa-RCJoxwfniyM at public.gmane.org, monkey-RCJoxwfniyM at public.gmane.org But the "proper" standard for sending the to line actually is: ,, you may find that if you send your email addresses like that you will get a better result. I can say for certain that if you are using sendmail and not giving it the email address in this format that it will send, and most gateways will happily accept it, but some microsoft gateways enforce the RFC 822 standard and if it's not in the correct format it will send to only the first email address changing the to line to look like: , Hope this helps, Will Weaver On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > > > > On 02/25/2013 01:52 PM, William Park wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 01:38:49PM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > >>> Hey all, > >>> > >>> I've got an auto-email setup running from a shell script. > >>> It sends fine to all the internal email addresses and sms messages to > >>> both > >>> rogers and telus cell customers, but does not send sms to bell > >>> customers. > >>> I've used both @txt.bell.ca and > >>> @txt.bellmobility.ca with no luck. > >>> > >>> Has anybody else ever seen something like this? Any thoughts on how to > >>> troubleshoot? > >> How do you send SMS text to Rogers cell number, anyways? > >> I know that Rogers has free web-to-cell service, but emailing SMS text > >> is new to me. > > > > And some providers, like WIND which I use, don't have email to SMS > > gateways so I have workaround that I read about online. I set up a > > Twitter account specifically for my phone number and turned on SMS > > notifications for direct messages. If I want to send a text to my phone, > > I can send a direct message to my Twitter account and my phone will > > receive it. > > > > I also use IFTTT to notify me via SMS of every > > event on my Google calendar. It's pretty handy and free. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Clifford Ilkay > > Dinamis > > 1419-3230 Yonge St. > > Toronto, ON > > Canada M4N 3P6 > > > > > > +1 416-410-3326 > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > Thanks for that suggestion. I've found a simpler work-around for now. It > appears that the bell system just objects when the addresses are part of a > group. If I specify them individually they go through. Go figure. > > Stephen > ____________________ > Stephen W. Clarke > Marketing and Communications Officer > Nray Services Inc. > 56A Head Street > Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 > CANADA > > (905) 627-1302 x14 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 21:02:48 2013 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:02:48 -0500 Subject: Having Trouble sending to txt.bell.ca In-Reply-To: <20130225185208.GA5649-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <9f62a5ec1037f253329d626efc3b3b3d.squirrel@nray.ca> <20130225185208.GA5649@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 25 February 2013 13:52, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 01:38:49PM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > How do you send SMS text to Rogers cell number, anyways? > I know that Rogers has free web-to-cell service, but emailing SMS text > is new to me. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 23:06:13 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 18:06:13 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: <20130225172044.GN20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2013-02-25 12:21 PM, "Lennart Sorensen" wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 04:14:44PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > > Way back in 2011, Lennart was recommending the D-Link router, the DIR825 > > rev B. Unfortunately it doesn't appear on Canada Computers site or anywhere > > else I can find. > > > > It seems to still be available from d-linkshop.ca as a 'Top Seller' but it > > doesn't show whether it is the preferred 'rev B'. > > > > Is there something comparable, particularly with Shareport, that is > > likewise recommended? > > See if you can find this: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/buffalo/wzr-600dhp > > 680MHz CPU, 32MB flash and 128MB ram and dual band is about as good as > it gets. > > $100 at NCIX in markham. Out of stock at canadacomputers (but $84). Thanks to all. I just remembered something else. Currently I have my old Linksys set up with Tomato and MLPPP with Teksavvy. Anyone know if that's even necessary now? Is encrypted traffic like Bittorrent still throttled or otherwise diddled with by big ISPs? If so, would this Buffalo router support MLPPP with either stock or custom firmware? Thanks again! > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 25 23:18:44 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 18:18:44 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130225231844.GO20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 06:06:13PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Thanks to all. I just remembered something else. Currently I have my old > Linksys set up with Tomato and MLPPP with Teksavvy. Anyone know if that's > even necessary now? Is encrypted traffic like Bittorrent still throttled or > otherwise diddled with by big ISPs? > > If so, would this Buffalo router support MLPPP with either stock or custom > firmware? No idea really. I use fully encrypted bittorrent traffic (for the bits I use it at all), and speed seems fine (on my 25Mbit link). No idea if MLPPP would make any difference to it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 26 13:14:39 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:14:39 -0500 Subject: Need a Dual Band Wireless Router In-Reply-To: <20130225231844.GO20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130225172044.GN20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130225231844.GO20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2013-02-25 6:19 PM, "Lennart Sorensen" wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 06:06:13PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > > Thanks to all. I just remembered something else. Currently I have my old > > Linksys set up with Tomato and MLPPP with Teksavvy. Anyone know if that's > > even necessary now? Is encrypted traffic like Bittorrent still throttled or > > otherwise diddled with by big ISPs? > > > > If so, would this Buffalo router support MLPPP with either stock or custom > > firmware? > > No idea really. I use fully encrypted bittorrent traffic (for the bits > I use it at all), and speed seems fine (on my 25Mbit link). No idea if > MLPPP would make any difference to it. I did some looking around and it does appear that Bell has ended it's throttling practices, at least as far as wholesale market, so Teksavvy should be fine without MLPPP. I can probably also get rid of my static IP and save a few bucks. I was only keeping that because it meant I didn't have to pay extra for MLPPP. I really want to sign up for their fibre service. Only ten bucks more and I think I get like ten times the speed I get now. According to Teksavvy, anyhow :-) > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 26 15:07:24 2013 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 10:07:24 -0500 Subject: New Linux and Open Source Meetup in St. Catharines / Niagara Message-ID: I hope it's alright that I advertise the new Niagara Linux Group. This is a restart as we use to meet as NPLUG back in 2009-2010. Hopefully it will last longer this time. The Linux and Open Source Users of Niagara Group (LOSUNG) is for people interested in using open source software. Whether you just run Firefox on your Windows 8 PC or a full suite of open source software on your Google Chromebook, our group is here to teach you more about Open Source. http://www.meetup.com/Linux-and-Open-Source-Users-of-Niagara-Group/ FIRST MEETUP Open Source Software - Getting your feet wet Wednesday, March 6, 2013 7:00 PM J.J. Kapps 327 Ontario Street, St. Catharines, ON Ask for the Linux User Group Meeting Please RSVP on Meetup Site http://www.meetup.com/Linux-and-Open-Source-Users-of-Niagara-Group/events/105991132/ Join us on Wednesday March 3rd as Mark Lane presents 'Open Source Software - Getting your feet wet'. Mark will take a look a what Open Source Software is Available for Windows and Mac Operating Systems. Starting with Browsers such as Firefox and Chrome, Mark will go through the available Open Source software solutions for word processing, spreadsheeting, emailing, scheduling. photo editing, audio editing, video/audio playback and streaming, secure shell, secure file copy and ftp and software development. Thx, -- Mark Lane http://2100computerlane.net -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 26 17:36:00 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 12:36:00 -0500 Subject: New Linux and Open Source Meetup in St. Catharines / Niagara In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Mark Lane wrote: > I hope it's alright that I advertise the new Niagara Linux Group. This > is a restart as we use to meet as NPLUG back in 2009-2010. Hopefully > it will last longer this time. Very pleased to hear of it! It's a challenge to keep things running for a long term; if you have a small group, it's tough to keep on finding interesting things to bring to the group on an ongoing basis, and to keep the organizational bits going. It makes sense to try to draw people in to share the organizational load, so that there's the possibility that it won't just "die" when someone moves away. It likely makes some sense for you to take a peek at GTALUG's old talks (see http://gtalug.org/wiki/Category:TLUG_Meeting) to see if there are any where you could invite a speaker in; we're not too far away, and no doubt it's worth connecting a bit. We've got a Wiki page on regional LUGs, and what's still live (some groups have doubtless died off) would be worth also looking at as resources to talk to. If you set up a web presence, it would be good to link that in. Due to spamming troubles, we've locked access to set up wiki accounts; ask and we can make sure it can get updated. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 26 17:58:26 2013 From: chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DAVID CHIPMAN) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 09:58:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: DAVID CHIPMAN Message-ID: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>    http://www.milionart.com/mlxjzyvc/aimni4safr0goofnbdevse.vtp0j?6idp2ni9sdqrdyjm4ghho4qwdb       DAVID CHIPMAN2/26/2013 6:58:24 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 26 18:23:47 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:23:47 -0500 Subject: DAVID CHIPMAN In-Reply-To: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo-mhNdJOJujDavrfWm4H71L5EhsgyP+Z75VpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:58 PM, DAVID CHIPMAN wrote: > > http://www.milionart.com/mlxjzyvc/aimni4safr0goofnbdevse.vtp0j?6idp2ni9sdqrdyjm4ghho4qwdb > > > > DAVID CHIPMAN > 2/26/2013 6:58:24 PM Oops, it appears as though someone's account has gotten hijacked to a spammy end. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 26 19:00:35 2013 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:00:35 -0500 Subject: DAVID CHIPMAN In-Reply-To: References: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512D0653.50400@sobac.com> There's been a whole raft of those over the last few days. They all have the "sender's"[1] name in the subject line, they all originate from Yahoo mail servers (which are also used by @rogers.com), and they're all signed as authentic by DKIM. Or maybe that's DMARC... What was the point of signing headers again? [1] In scare quotes, because I don't really believe that those people actually sent the message. They're victims, not perpetrators. The message also list a number of addresses in the To: field from the victim's addressbook. It's an attack on Yahoo's servers, not a drive-by vulnerability on web browsers that access Yahoo's webmail site. One of the message I received was "from" a friend who passed away in 2011, so I *know* he wasn't using a vulnerable browser or a malware infested computer. Some of the addresses listed in the To: field were from unpublished accounts on a mail system we administered, so I'm pretty sure Yahoo's servers were compromised, giving the attackers access even to dormant accounts. I've also been receiving a ton of messages where the name in the From: field is someone I know, but the e-mail address is something like qwertysplat-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Looks like that's a different spam engine... In both cases my spam filter catches them nicely, except when the message has been sent to a mailing list. At least two mailing lists I manage have been spammed this way, and now the TLUG list too. --Bob. -- Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Phone: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cell: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting On 13-02-26 01:23 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:58 PM, DAVID CHIPMAN wrote: >> http://www.milionart.com/mlxjzyvc/aimni4safr0goofnbdevse.vtp0j?6idp2ni9sdqrdyjm4ghho4qwdb >> >> >> >> DAVID CHIPMAN >> 2/26/2013 6:58:24 PM > Oops, it appears as though someone's account has gotten hijacked to a > spammy end. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 26 19:34:35 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:34:35 -0500 Subject: DAVID CHIPMAN In-Reply-To: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo-mhNdJOJujDavrfWm4H71L5EhsgyP+Z75VpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130226193435.GB17451@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 09:58:26AM -0800, DAVID CHIPMAN wrote: >    http://www.milionart.com/mlxjzyvc/aimni4safr0goofnbdevse.vtp0j?6idp2ni9sdqrdyjm4ghho4qwdb       DAVID CHIPMAN2/26/2013 6:58:24 PM $5,000-7,000/month! Wait, there is $50 maintenance fee. Pretty soon, you too can buy a house with no money down. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 26 23:24:15 2013 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 18:24:15 -0500 Subject: New Linux and Open Source Meetup in St. Catharines / Niagara In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Mark Lane wrote: >> I hope it's alright that I advertise the new Niagara Linux Group. This >> is a restart as we use to meet as NPLUG back in 2009-2010. Hopefully >> it will last longer this time. > > Very pleased to hear of it! It's a challenge to keep things running for a > long term; if you have a small group, it's tough to keep on finding interesting > things to bring to the group on an ongoing basis, and to keep the > organizational bits going. It makes sense to try to draw people in to > share the organizational load, so that there's the possibility that it won't > just "die" when someone moves away. > > It likely makes some sense for you to take a peek at GTALUG's old talks > (see http://gtalug.org/wiki/Category:TLUG_Meeting) > to see if there are any where you could invite a speaker in; we're not too > far away, and no doubt it's worth connecting a bit. > > We've got a Wiki page on regional LUGs, and what's still live (some groups > have doubtless died off) would be worth also looking at as resources to > talk to. > > > If you set up a web presence, it would be good to link that in. Due to > spamming troubles, we've locked access to set up wiki accounts; ask > and we can make sure it can get updated. > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Thanks Christopher: We are actually already on the wiki from before. We haven't setup a website so it just points to our facebook page. If we put up a webpage, I will probably ask to have the link changed then. Eventually I will want to stop paying meetup so I don't want to bother changing the link to that. -- Mark Lane http://2100computerlane.net -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 27 00:14:29 2013 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:14:29 -0500 Subject: DAVID CHIPMAN In-Reply-To: <20130226193435.GB17451-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130226193435.GB17451@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: William, > $5,000-7,000/month! Wait, there is $50 maintenance fee. Pretty soon, > you too can buy a house with no money down. > -- You clicked on it? You better be running patched Linux system if you are that brave. Petty soon you will get infected if you are on windows. I never click on a mail with just a link and I also pass URL shortened links. That even when on Linux. I also got a couple of SMS offering an iPhone if I click on the link. The phones are also not safe it seems :( William > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 27 01:09:31 2013 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:09:31 -0500 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". Message-ID: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/02/linus-torvalds-i-will-not-change-linux-to-deep-throat-microsoft/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s at sadiqs.com Wed Feb 27 01:27:46 2013 From: s at sadiqs.com (Sadiq Saif) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:27:46 -0500 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512D6112.5000502@sadiqs.com> On 2/26/2013 20:09, Thomas Milne wrote: > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/02/linus-torvalds-i-will-not-change-linux-to-deep-throat-microsoft/ > Curious, has Linus always been like this or is the media just catching on to a trend? I know when I started using Linux a few years back, I did not read online news stories like the one you linked. -- Sadiq Saif -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 27 01:33:07 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:33:07 -0500 Subject: DAVID CHIPMAN In-Reply-To: References: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130226193435.GB17451@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130227013307.GB19564@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 07:14:29PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > > $5,000-7,000/month! Wait, there is $50 maintenance fee. Pretty soon, > > you too can buy a house with no money down. > > -- > You clicked on it? You better be running patched Linux system if you are > that brave. Petty soon you will get infected if you are on windows. > > I never click on a mail with just a link and I also pass URL shortened > links. That even when on Linux. > > I also got a couple of SMS offering an iPhone if I click on the link. The > phones are also not safe it seems :( I cut/pasted on Firefox-19.0, Java-7u13, and Kernel-3.8, all of which are the latest. So, if it can worm through those, I'm toast. :-) -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From s at sadiqs.com Wed Feb 27 01:40:20 2013 From: s at sadiqs.com (Sadiq Saif) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:40:20 -0500 Subject: DAVID CHIPMAN In-Reply-To: References: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130226193435.GB17451@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <512D6404.8080205@sadiqs.com> On 2/26/2013 19:14, William Muriithi wrote: > William, > >> $5,000-7,000/month! Wait, there is $50 maintenance fee. Pretty soon, >> you too can buy a house with no money down. >> -- > You clicked on it? You better be running patched Linux system if you are > that brave. Petty soon you will get infected if you are on windows. > > I never click on a mail with just a link and I also pass URL shortened > links. That even when on Linux. > > I also got a couple of SMS offering an iPhone if I click on the link. The > phones are also not safe it seems :( > > William >> William My provider's SA setup caught it, it landed in my Junk e-mail folder: X-Spam: spam X-Spam-score: 5.0 X-Spam-hits: BAYES_99 3.5, HTML_MESSAGE 0.001, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS 1.506, LANGUAGES unknown, BAYES_USED global, SA_VERSION 3.3.1 Hopefully these URLs will get added to URIBLs soon enough and they will land in spam folders for most people. -- Sadiq Saif -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 27 02:02:17 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:02:17 -0500 Subject: DAVID CHIPMAN In-Reply-To: <20130227013307.GB19564-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130226193435.GB17451@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130227013307.GB19564@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 8:33 PM, William Park wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 07:14:29PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: >> > $5,000-7,000/month! Wait, there is $50 maintenance fee. Pretty soon, >> > you too can buy a house with no money down. >> > -- >> You clicked on it? You better be running patched Linux system if you are >> that brave. Petty soon you will get infected if you are on windows. > I cut/pasted on Firefox-19.0, Java-7u13, and Kernel-3.8, all of which > are the latest. So, if it can worm through those, I'm toast. :-) I could see following the link like this for forensic testing but only in a virtual machine (not JVM) or on test hardware. Otherwise it's just playing with fire. In most cases, wget and lynx are my tools for previewing questionable URLs. Out of curiosity did you have javascript disabled? Was the browser running in a virtual machine? -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 27 02:31:18 2013 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:31:18 -0500 Subject: DAVID CHIPMAN In-Reply-To: References: <1361901506.42232.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130226193435.GB17451@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 7:14 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > William, > >> $5,000-7,000/month! Wait, there is $50 maintenance fee. Pretty soon, >> you too can buy a house with no money down. >> -- > You clicked on it? You better be running patched Linux system if you are > that brave. Petty soon you will get infected if you are on windows. > > I never click on a mail with just a link and I also pass URL shortened > links. That even when on Linux. Just a note about links shortened with bit.ly: if you add a "+" (no quotes) to the shortened URL, you'll get an information page with preview & stats. By way of example, my most recent is about how the cola wars started back in the 1700's: One can confirm the link's target (the information page in this case) without following the shortened link by visiting my profile at . The above mentioned article is currently the first listed bitmark. -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 27 05:07:46 2013 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:07:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: <512D6112.5000502-W7mmRt3Ql23QT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <512D6112.5000502@sadiqs.com> Message-ID: | From: Sadiq Saif | Curious, has Linus always been like this or is the media just catching | on to a trend? I know when I started using Linux a few years back, I did | not read online news stories like the one you linked. What's "like this"? Opinionated? Yes. Strongly stating his opinion? Yes. Right? Usually. Using crude/rude words and analogies? Yes, I think so. I suspect that it is cultural rather than idiosyncratic. I know a lot of others who talk like that but not so often in public venues. BTW, I strongly sympathize with his position. I don't understand the issues deeply enough to see whether his position is impractical. Microsoft really is at war with Linux. Giving them the "keys to the kingdom" would seem quite foolish. Better to force a new Linux-wide signing authority to be created. Who needs this? As far as I know, only publishers of distro-independent closed-source Linux Kernel modules and firmware binary blobs, a dubious category in itself. And I would certainly not automatically/mechanically trust a system with such drivers. I guess we've lost the fight about binary blobs. X.509 certificates really are the industry standard and probably should be sufficient. Each (signed) cert needs to declare its competence (i.e. what it is allowed to sign). I don't know how you delegate a delimited driver-signing competency (but I haven't tried to find out). Perhaps Microsoft only signs PE binaries to avoid the issues of delegation. It's important to know the meaning of a all signatures that could allow a system to be considered "Trusted" by this mechanism. If the meaning of one signature is "this really came from a specific Yahoo email account", and another means "I've formally verified that this module meets its specs", and another means "The US government wants you to trust this", what does that say about the trust of a system with all those? The things that are forbidden are the intersection of the complement of all those claims, and lot of bad things escape that. Remember Microsoft's telling us we should trust ActiveX over the web? After all, all ActiveX modules were signed. But all that proved was that Microsoft believed that the module it signed came from the source who had paid a license fee and agreed to license terms. No verification of the code was involved. Punishment for a discovered violation was loss of the license AFTER THE FACT. No sandboxing or any other technical control. This went on for years. Pathetic. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 27 16:00:43 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:00:43 -0500 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: References: <512D6112.5000502@sadiqs.com> Message-ID: <20130227160043.GP20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:07:46AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > What's "like this"? > > Opinionated? Yes. > > Strongly stating his opinion? Yes. > > Right? Usually. > > Using crude/rude words and analogies? Yes, I think so. I suspect > that it is cultural rather than idiosyncratic. I know a lot of others > who talk like that but not so often in public venues. Yeah nothing new there. > BTW, I strongly sympathize with his position. I don't understand the > issues deeply enough to see whether his position is impractical. > > Microsoft really is at war with Linux. Giving them the "keys to the > kingdom" would seem quite foolish. Better to force a new Linux-wide > signing authority to be created. > > Who needs this? As far as I know, only publishers of distro-independent > closed-source Linux Kernel modules and firmware binary blobs, a dubious > category in itself. And I would certainly not automatically/mechanically > trust a system with such drivers. I guess we've lost the fight about > binary blobs. > > X.509 certificates really are the industry standard and probably > should be sufficient. Each (signed) cert needs to declare its competence > (i.e. what it is allowed to sign). I don't know how you delegate a > delimited driver-signing competency (but I haven't tried to find out). > Perhaps Microsoft only signs PE binaries to avoid the issues of > delegation. Well Microsoft uses PE/COFF executables. Linux (and most unix systems) use ELF. Mac OS X is using Mach-O format. Not much else is in common use. Of course EFI requires PE/COFF format for boot loaders and other files that it executes. Probably Microsoft's fault that it uses that. > It's important to know the meaning of a all signatures that could allow a > system to be considered "Trusted" by this mechanism. If the meaning of > one signature is "this really came from a specific Yahoo email account", > and another means "I've formally verified that this module meets its > specs", and another means "The US government wants you to trust this", > what does that say about the trust of a system with all those? The things > that are forbidden are the intersection of the complement of all those > claims, and lot of bad things escape that. > > Remember Microsoft's telling us we should trust ActiveX over the web? > After all, all ActiveX modules were signed. But all that proved was that > Microsoft believed that the module it signed came from the source who had > paid a license fee and agreed to license terms. No verification of the > code was involved. Punishment for a discovered violation was loss of the > license AFTER THE FACT. No sandboxing or any other technical control. > This went on for years. Pathetic. Yeah signing didn't help anything there. Also given the security disasters a few certificate authorities have been... -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 27 20:29:33 2013 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:29:33 -0500 Subject: Cory Doctorow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Toronto born technology commentator / science fiction author Cory Doctorow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Doctorow) will be speaking here in Toronto on Friday. Details as follows: Bakka-Phoenix Books CORY DOCTOROW! The inimitable Cory Doctorow is coming to town! He?ll join us in the basement of the Lillian H. Smith Library (239 College, at Huron) this Friday March 1st (it?s a big space ? let?s try to fill it!). He?s finishing up his tour for Homeland, the sequel to his spectacular novel Little Brother. But since he?s Cory, we?ll probably also hear about e-rights, fabulous new tech, parenting, legislation, travel and? pretty much anything anyone cares to ask about. Engaged, entertaining, and energetic: that?s Cory Doctorow. Doors open at 6pm: the event will start at 7pm. We?d love to see you there. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 27 22:04:47 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:04:47 -0500 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/02/linus-torvalds-i-will-not-change-linux-to-deep-throat-microsoft/ Note that Torvalds has made some more "constructive" comments to describe use of UEFI, that is, to describe ways to make systematic use of it, as opposed to merely saying, fairly rudely, "nope, not that way"... http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=136185386310140&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=136185309010028&w=2 At first blush, it seems plausible. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 05:12:05 2013 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 00:12:05 -0500 Subject: Using Git in a Windows environment? In-Reply-To: <51266242.90502-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <51266242.90502@ss.org> Message-ID: Scott, I use GIT both on Linux and Windows. My suggestion is to use the GIT console, its really easy and much more efficient. You can create aliases if you don't like typing =) You can type gitk from inside a git repository, a nice UI for browsing your git repo history and changes will pop up! It's only a viewer. For Windows you will want to install git from: http://msysgit.github.com/ Git comes with it's own shell, I highly suggest you use it, DON'T try to use GIT from cygwin or msys or via CMD shell or (VC++ shell if you're using VisualStudio), you will get mixed results. The GIT shell provided some unix like commands found in msys or cygwin. If you have not come across this free book (Git Pro): http://git-scm.com/book I'd recommend you study it, it's an easy read! Finally I suggest you checkout Bitbucket: https://bitbucket.org/ It's a free public and private repository with no restriction on space! So forget github or gitorious, I've tried both, but I love Bitbucket, I host all my stuff on bitbucket. GIT was designed for the command line to be easy to use, using a UI is overkill and it will actually slow you down imho! -- Rajinder Yadav DevMentor Labshttp://labs.devmentor.org Creating Amazing Possibilities On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > This is a wisdom of the crowd question. > > If I had to use Git in a windows environment, what utilities would you > recommend to make it easier? > > So far I've found. http://msysgit.github.com/ > > If I was to make git more accessible for a first time user, what GUIs have > people found worth while? > > > > Please limit your answers to git. I know there are equally capable other > revision control systems, but they are not the focus of my inquiry. > > Thanks, > -- > Scott Sullivan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav SafetyNet Test Driven Development http://safetynet.devmentor.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 05:24:55 2013 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dev Guy) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 00:24:55 -0500 Subject: Some people call Linus Torvalds "rude". I call him "honest". In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is the short version of the FU youtube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ When I saw it, I almost fell off my chair laughing! The long version in from his speaking engagement Aalto Talk with Linus Torvalds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MShbP3OpASA On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Thomas Milne > wrote: > > > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/02/linus-torvalds-i-will-not-change-linux-to-deep-throat-microsoft/ > > Note that Torvalds has made some more "constructive" comments to > describe use of UEFI, > that is, to describe ways to make systematic use of it, as opposed to > merely saying, fairly > rudely, "nope, not that way"... > > http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=136185386310140&w=2 > http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=136185309010028&w=2 > > At first blush, it seems plausible. > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav SafetyNet Test Driven Development http://safetynet.devmentor.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 11:09:30 2013 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 06:09:30 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? Message-ID: Looking at this for a customer. Any suggestions would be welcome. Dave Cramer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 11:32:30 2013 From: faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Syed Faisal Akber) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:32:30 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 12:16:19 2013 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 07:16:19 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB-MHjupGqSvN5g9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I think the connection type is flexible. Dave Cramer On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Syed Faisal Akber wrote: > How do you want to connect to it? > iSCSI, FC, or NFS? > > What is your budget? > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > *From: *Dave Cramer > *Sent: *Thursday, February 28, 2013 06:09 PM > *To: *tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > *Reply To: *tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > *Subject: *[TLUG]: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage > array ? > > Looking at this for a customer. > > Any suggestions would be welcome. > > Dave Cramer > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG > requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 14:40:21 2013 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:40:21 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: > > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I think the connection type is flexible. > Hmm, if USB is acceptable, speed is not a problem. Budget is also tight for brand name storage. Buy 2 or 3 servers with as many hard disk bays as possible. Then buy 1 or 2 TB drives and run software RAID over them. The merge all the resulting storage using glusterfs. You will get a solid fully redundant storage for all your systems. Not fast enough for serious work in my opinion but stable and easily maintained. If you want speed, use lusterfs or gfs2. Unfortunately glusterfs client is slow as its not kernel based. Price you pay if you want a product that can run on all Unix systems. Some people have been pushing them for Linux kernel based client to improve throughput William > Dave Cramer > > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Syed Faisal Akber wrote: >> >> How do you want to connect to it? >> iSCSI, FC, or NFS? >> >> What is your budget? >> >> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. >> >> From: Dave Cramer >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 06:09 PM >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Reply To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Subject: [TLUG]: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? >> >> Looking at this for a customer. >> >> Any suggestions would be welcome. >> >> Dave Cramer >> >> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 15:40:44 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:40:44 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: <20130228154044.GQ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:16:19AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I think > the connection type is flexible. USB? Are they mad? USB is often unreliable and it is slow. I tried connecting a 4.5TB external storage via USB because it was simple, and it kept dropping off the bus under load a few times a day. Switching to eSATA on the same box made it perfectly reliable and much much faster. USB3 should be better, but not too many machines have that yet. Could be added of course. USB2 would take close to 4 days to transfer 10TB. Something like this might do the job: http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=14_207&item_id=040363 eSATA, USB3 are both nice options (and USB2 compatible should you want to). Putting in 8x2TB or 3TB should give you 14 or 21TB storage with RAID5. $400 for the box + 8 x $160 (WD Red 3TB) = $1680 for 21TB RAID5 $400 for the box + 8 x $120 (WD Red 2TB) = $1360 for 14TB RAID5 A USB3 or eSATA controller if needed should be cheap. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 16:28:02 2013 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 08:28:02 -0800 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130228154044.GQ20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228154044.GQ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: I agree with Lennart on the USB thing. For a large dedicated storage array, USB is not going to be a reliable choice. Even USB3 can have issues. If your hardware doesn't have an eSATA port, the adaptors are usually affordable. The best of both worlds might be some NAS storage solutions that also support eSATA (and/or USB) On Feb 28, 2013 7:41 AM, "Lennart Sorensen" wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:16:19AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: > > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I > think > > the connection type is flexible. > > USB? Are they mad? USB is often unreliable and it is slow. I tried > connecting a 4.5TB external storage via USB because it was simple, and > it kept dropping off the bus under load a few times a day. Switching to > eSATA on the same box made it perfectly reliable and much much faster. > > USB3 should be better, but not too many machines have that yet. Could be > added of course. > > USB2 would take close to 4 days to transfer 10TB. > > Something like this might do the job: > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=14_207&item_id=040363 > > eSATA, USB3 are both nice options (and USB2 compatible should you > want to). Putting in 8x2TB or 3TB should give you 14 or 21TB storage > with RAID5. > > $400 for the box + 8 x $160 (WD Red 3TB) = $1680 for 21TB RAID5 > $400 for the box + 8 x $120 (WD Red 2TB) = $1360 for 14TB RAID5 > > A USB3 or eSATA controller if needed should be cheap. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 17:20:31 2013 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:20:31 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228154044.GQ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: I want to give my advice but I have a laundry list of questions that need to be asked first. Is only a single machine storing to the server or will it be multiple? What type of backup are you using? How about redundancy? Any specs on data required transfer speed? What type of local network do they have and is a network share an acceptable solution? Are they looking for a one time investment or do they want/need future expansion? Are you doing this work in house or is it contract based? This matters mostly for budgetary reasons. Initially I would suggest looking at connecting via a network share. While USB 3.0 is theoretically faster you're going to be limited by your hard drive speed. A gigabit network switch/router, which if they aren't on they should be, allows for a file transfer connection that will max the hard drives speed but doesn't suffer the issues of USB such as single access point. This also allows for you to use a lightweight linux distro and a samba, nfs, or gluster network share depending on what OS's will have to access it and your requirements. With that, 5k for a 20T box is easy. You could easily make a 20G raid 1 for that price when you look at WD greens being only 100 for 2T. A quick ballpark figure. AMD Bulldozer based PC built from scratch roughly 400-500. Most of that is a case that has 12 front facing 5.25 slots example the Antec 1200. 20 WD reds 2TB roughly 2400. you can even bump to 3TB if you want to be able to add more drives later 4 5.25 3/5 drive caddies. 400 1 SSD small sized for the OS - 100 RAID card, if needed. You may just do glusterfs or zfs pooling with redundancy. Here were're looking at a PC running a newer bulldozer core, which is a consumer version of the AMD server CPUs, which are great for parallel process but low single stream power, in a case that holds 20 physical drives plus an SSD for the OS. You're also coming in at roughly 3/5ths of your budget and exceeding specs substantially. Add in a phenominal RAID card if needed and go to town. Lastly you can always use the leftover power to run a few VMs to consolidate a few seats for any software the license and hopefully reduce overall cost. These VMs can even have access to the file share locally through glusterfs if you want. You could even go crazy and offer to build them two so they have crazy levels of redunancy and a higher read and write speed using glusterfs replication. You have a lot of options, it feels like to me you just need to get all the specs and customer desires worked out. Will Weaver On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > I agree with Lennart on the USB thing. For a large dedicated storage > array, USB is not going to be a reliable choice. Even USB3 can have issues. > > If your hardware doesn't have an eSATA port, the adaptors are usually > affordable. > > The best of both worlds might be some NAS storage solutions that also > support eSATA (and/or USB) > On Feb 28, 2013 7:41 AM, "Lennart Sorensen" > wrote: > >> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:16:19AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: >> > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I >> think >> > the connection type is flexible. >> >> USB? Are they mad? USB is often unreliable and it is slow. I tried >> connecting a 4.5TB external storage via USB because it was simple, and >> it kept dropping off the bus under load a few times a day. Switching to >> eSATA on the same box made it perfectly reliable and much much faster. >> >> USB3 should be better, but not too many machines have that yet. Could be >> added of course. >> >> USB2 would take close to 4 days to transfer 10TB. >> >> Something like this might do the job: >> >> http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=14_207&item_id=040363 >> >> eSATA, USB3 are both nice options (and USB2 compatible should you >> want to). Putting in 8x2TB or 3TB should give you 14 or 21TB storage >> with RAID5. >> >> $400 for the box + 8 x $160 (WD Red 3TB) = $1680 for 21TB RAID5 >> $400 for the box + 8 x $120 (WD Red 2TB) = $1360 for 14TB RAID5 >> >> A USB3 or eSATA controller if needed should be cheap. >> >> -- >> Len Sorensen >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 18:25:20 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 13:25:20 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228154044.GQ20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130228182520.GR20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 12:20:31PM -0500, William Weaver wrote: > I want to give my advice but I have a laundry list of questions that need > to be asked first. > > Is only a single machine storing to the server or will it be multiple? > What type of backup are you using? > How about redundancy? > Any specs on data required transfer speed? > What type of local network do they have and is a network share an > acceptable solution? > Are they looking for a one time investment or do they want/need > future expansion? > Are you doing this work in house or is it contract based? This matters > mostly for budgetary reasons. > > Initially I would suggest looking at connecting via a network share. While > USB 3.0 is theoretically faster you're going to be limited by your hard > drive speed. A gigabit network switch/router, which if they aren't on they > should be, allows for a file transfer connection that will max the hard > drives speed but doesn't suffer the issues of USB such as single access > point. This also allows for you to use a lightweight linux distro and a > samba, nfs, or gluster network share depending on what OS's will have to > access it and your requirements. With that, 5k for a 20T box is easy. You > could easily make a 20G raid 1 for that price when you look at WD greens > being only 100 for 2T. A single SATA drive can saturate a gigabit link these days. A RAID5 of 8 of them will do much more. eSATA as 3Gbit or maybe 6Gbit or USB3 at 5Gbit will be much faster than gigabit ethernet and have much less overhead. Unless you use a 10Gbit card in your PC that is doing the hosting of the RAID you won't match the speed. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 15:29:59 2013 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:29:59 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: <512F77F7.6040503@alteeve.ca> On 02/28/2013 07:16 AM, Dave Cramer wrote: > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I > think the connection type is flexible. > > Dave Cramer I built this over the holidays for myself. If the customer is okay with you building something and you can use nfs or smb to mount instead of USB, then look at a simple server. Most mainboards support at least six SATA headers. Put 8 or so GB of RAM in it and 6x 3TB drives in software RAID level 6*. This will give you 12 TB of usable space. I used the Lian-Li PC-A04B chassis, which is a mATX case that can support up to 7 3.5" drives, plus has two 5.25" bays. If 12 TB isn't enough space, add a PCIe SATA adapter and add a couple more drives for 18 TB of usable space. The biggest thing I'd recommend is to get a proper network card. Most mainboards come with Realtek NICs and they are utter crap. Personally, I like Intel NICs and have a lot of luck with their PCIe Pro 1000/CT adapter when budget is a concern. Note that this won't be fast storage, but it will be inexpensive and large. :) digimer The reason for RAID level 6 is well laid out here; http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/datacenter/how-to-protect-yourself-from-raid-related-unrecoverable-read-errors-ures/1752 -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 20:35:13 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:35:13 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> Message-ID: <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 07:16:19AM -0500, Dave Cramer wrote: > Customer is looking for something under 5k, connected via USB, but I > think the connection type is flexible. 1. 8-bay USB3 external from Mediasonic. 2. Get a motherboard with 8+ SATA ports and NFS mount. Since this is stand-alone system, they need to know how to maintain it, or pay for support. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 20:56:16 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:56:16 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130228203513.GA30920-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130228205616.GS20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 03:35:13PM -0500, William Park wrote: > 1. > 8-bay USB3 external from Mediasonic. No not that one. That one does NOT have a RAID controller and instead it presents you with 8 seperate disks and then your OS has to do all the setup and maintainance of raid. Huge hassle. Also means all the extra reads/writes for parity data has to go over the connection too, making it much slower. You want the H8R2 model not the H82. > 2. Get a motherboard with 8+ SATA ports and NFS mount. Since this is > stand-alone system, they need to know how to maintain it, or pay for > support. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 21:22:08 2013 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:22:08 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130228205616.GS20464-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228205616.GS20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20130228212208.GA4439@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 03:56:16PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 03:35:13PM -0500, William Park wrote: > > 1. > > 8-bay USB3 external from Mediasonic. > > No not that one. That one does NOT have a RAID controller and instead > it presents you with 8 seperate disks and then your OS has to do all > the setup and maintainance of raid. Huge hassle. Also means all the > extra reads/writes for parity data has to go over the connection too, > making it much slower. > > You want the H8R2 model not the H82. I picked non-RAID model, because I've heard that builtin controller is crappy. I guess you can try their hardware raid, and then opt for software raid if not satisfied. I generally don't like hardware raid because you're now locked to that card/version/firmware. Of course, you'd replace disks more often than card itself, unless there is fire, lightning (happened to me), flood, etc. > > > 2. Get a motherboard with 8+ SATA ports and NFS mount. Since this is > > stand-alone system, they need to know how to maintain it, or pay for > > support. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 21:41:48 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:41:48 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130228212208.GA4439-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228205616.GS20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130228212208.GA4439@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130228214148.GT20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 04:22:08PM -0500, William Park wrote: > I picked non-RAID model, because I've heard that builtin controller is > crappy. I guess you can try their hardware raid, and then opt for > software raid if not satisfied. The built in controller does a very nice job. At least assuming it is anything like the 4 bay version I have used. It is not very flexible though. You will have one raid setup on all disks. No splitting and mixing or making multiple volumes as far as I recall from when I configured the 4 bay one. The non raid is quite different in that it has a USB interface that simply does 8 separate usb storage devices, and a SATA port multiplier (it will NOT work with a controller that does not support port multipliers). The raid model works with any eSATA controller since it only presents one disk. USB of course also only shows one disk. > I generally don't like hardware raid because you're now locked to that > card/version/firmware. Of course, you'd replace disks more often than > card itself, unless there is fire, lightning (happened to me), flood, > etc. Well hardware raid saves bandwidth and is vastly easier to use. Software raid required a competent admin. Of course if your machine has room for the disks internally, a nice hardware raid controller like a 3ware or areca would give much better performance, and certainly software raid could be an option if you are willing to administrate it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 21:41:55 2013 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:41:55 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: <20130228212208.GA4439-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228205616.GS20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130228212208.GA4439@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 4:22 PM, William Park wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 03:56:16PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 03:35:13PM -0500, William Park wrote: >> > 1. >> > 8-bay USB3 external from Mediasonic. >> >> No not that one. That one does NOT have a RAID controller and instead >> it presents you with 8 seperate disks and then your OS has to do all >> the setup and maintainance of raid. Huge hassle. Also means all the >> extra reads/writes for parity data has to go over the connection too, >> making it much slower. >> >> You want the H8R2 model not the H82. > > I picked non-RAID model, because I've heard that builtin controller is > crappy. I guess you can try their hardware raid, and then opt for > software raid if not satisfied. > > I generally don't like hardware raid because you're now locked to that > card/version/firmware. Of course, you'd replace disks more often than > card itself, unless there is fire, lightning (happened to me), flood, > etc. Yep, neither option fills me with "warm fuzzies." I'd prefer, if using "budget hardware," to use software RAID, because RAID controllers tend to require specific-to-that-hardware tooling to do anything to the RAID array. It's a TERRIBLE thing if the RAID controller fails and you can't access data on the disks without getting a replacement of the same model number (potentially tied to version + firmware version, as William suggests). On the other hand, it's also terrible if using software RAID with JBOD forces enormously more traffic across a not-quite-fast-enough-bus. There are two poisons here - you've got to pick one of them :-(. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 28 21:57:17 2013 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:57:17 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for a 10-20TB linux compatible storage array ? In-Reply-To: References: <20130228113243.8B92FA2BDB@lethe.ss.org> <20130228203513.GA30920@node1.opengeometry.net> <20130228205616.GS20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20130228212208.GA4439@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20130228215717.GU20464@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 04:41:55PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > Yep, neither option fills me with "warm fuzzies." > > I'd prefer, if using "budget hardware," to use software RAID, because > RAID controllers tend to require specific-to-that-hardware tooling to > do anything to the RAID array. It's a TERRIBLE thing if the RAID > controller fails and you can't access data on the disks without getting > a replacement of the same model number (potentially tied to version > + firmware version, as William suggests). > > On the other hand, it's also terrible if using software RAID with JBOD > forces enormously more traffic across a not-quite-fast-enough-bus. > > There are two poisons here - you've got to pick one of them :-(. Absolutely. Some raid controllers you can in fact figure out how they wrote the disks and recover, but not simple. Software raid does need a higher skill level to manage though,given changing disks and doing rebuilds isn't plug and play the way it is on hardware raid in general. Software raid can be faster and much more flexible though. I certainly have both in different setups (or in the case of my mythtv box, it actually has both in one system.) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists