From avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 01:13:52 2012 From: avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Volkov) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:13:52 -0400 Subject: Nvidia Quadro FX 4400/4500 -- Free Message-ID: <5068EE50.1030605@gmail.com> Hello Everyone, I'm doing an autumn cleaning and I've found Nvidia Quadro 4400 that I no longer need. It's of 2006/2007 vintage PCI-e card and has been pulled out of recently deceased Dell Precision 470, card itself seemed to have survived -- I've tried it with a different computer and it worked, since that I've been keeping it in an antistatic bag. The reason I'm posting this on TLUG and not Craigslist -- It's got dual DVI and works pretty well in dual screen mode in linux with proprietary Nvidia drivers, one small downside it had -- I was unable to run the latest kernel from Debian testing, and sometimes had to wait a few moths or so before activating it, not a big deal. Let me know if anyone wants it and if so, I'll bring it to TLUG, or meet in the vicinity of King/Spadina on a weekday. Alex. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 17:06:48 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 13:06:48 -0400 Subject: Nvidia Quadro FX 4400/4500 -- Free In-Reply-To: <5068EE50.1030605-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <5068EE50.1030605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121001170648.GF23027@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 09:13:52PM -0400, Alex Volkov wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > I'm doing an autumn cleaning and I've found Nvidia Quadro 4400 that > I no longer need. It's of 2006/2007 vintage PCI-e card and has been > pulled out of recently deceased Dell Precision 470, card itself > seemed to have survived -- I've tried it with a different computer > and it worked, since that I've been keeping it in an antistatic > bag. > > The reason I'm posting this on TLUG and not Craigslist -- It's got > dual DVI and works pretty well in dual screen mode in linux with > proprietary Nvidia drivers, one small downside it had -- I was > unable to run the latest kernel from Debian testing, and sometimes > had to wait a few moths or so before activating it, not a big deal. > > Let me know if anyone wants it and if so, I'll bring it to TLUG, or > meet in the vicinity of King/Spadina on a weekday. In case anyone doesn't know, a Quadro 4400 is about equivalant of a 6800. It should work with current nvidia drivers, and possibly neuvaeu (sp?) as well. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 20:03:23 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 16:03:23 -0400 Subject: Missing kids plan for 404 pages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19741350 What do people have to say about this plan? Rogers does do hijack -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 1 21:00:25 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 17:00:25 -0400 Subject: Missing kids plan for 404 pages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <506A0469.3050009@ss.org> On 10/01/2012 04:03 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19741350 > > What do people have to say about this plan? Rogers does do hijack > Just a couple of points. 1) It's an EU project, so the missing kids reports will not sufficiently relevant to our region. Rogers will likely only get involved if there is something local that they can leverage for good PR. 2) Rogers only does DNS hijacking for non-existent or typo'd domain names. They do not hijack successful HTTP transfers (a 404 is still a successful http request, just not the answer you we're hoping for). 3) This is an opt-in that has to be configured on the hosting web-servers. When the are referring to ISPs in the article they mean Webhosting (which many last-mile ISPs do as well). Over all, it's a nifty idea and I hope it works out. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 00:20:14 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 20:20:14 -0400 Subject: Missing kids plan for 404 pages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121002002014.GA25256@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Oct 01, 2012 at 04:03:23PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19741350 > > What do people have to say about this plan? Rogers does do hijack I read the article, and it specifically stated that the redirect would be done by code on the website, not via a hijack by the ISP. That's not a problem per se. What worries me is that, just like regular web ads, it'll well great at first, and then effectiveness will tail off... and that the response would be to push more of these ads all over the place. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 00:23:24 2012 From: chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DAVID CHIPMAN) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 17:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Missing kids plan for 404 pages In-Reply-To: <20121002002014.GA25256-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20121002002014.GA25256@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <1349137404.19704.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Dnes To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Cc: Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 8:20:14 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Missing kids plan for 404 pages On Mon, Oct 01, 2012 at 04:03:23PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19741350 > > What do people have to say about this plan? Rogers does do hijack ? I read the article, and it specifically stated that the redirect would be done by code on the website, not via a hijack by the ISP.? That's not a problem per se.? What worries me is that, just like regular web ads, it'll well great at first, and then effectiveness will tail off... and that the response would be to push more of these ads all over the place. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists What about the fact that when a 404 is generated, there is also indication in the response header? Would that not allow an ISP to handle things to produce a missing child page? -David -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 02:10:19 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 22:10:19 -0400 Subject: Missing kids plan for 404 pages In-Reply-To: <1349137404.19704.YahooMailNeo-mhNdJOJujDavrfWm4H71L5EhsgyP+Z75VpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <20121002002014.GA25256@waltdnes.org> <1349137404.19704.YahooMailNeo@web140606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Walter, > Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 8:20:14 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Missing kids plan for 404 pages > > On Mon, Oct 01, 2012 at 04:03:23PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19741350 >> >> What do people have to say about this plan? Rogers does do hijack > > I read the article, and it specifically stated that the redirect would > be done by code on the website, not via a hijack by the ISP. That's not > a problem per se. What worries me is that, just like regular web ads, > it'll well great at first, and then effectiveness will tail off... and > that the response would be to push more of these ads all over the place. > Correct. This is different from DNS hijacking, In fact, the 404 is a file sent from the file server and by then DNS work is already over. So you may ask, why did you send this mail? I read the article about a month ago and initially somehow associated it with DNS hijacking. During the time I was drafting the mail, I noticed my logical error and at that point decided not to send out the mail. Somehow, gmail saved it as a draft. At some point today evening, I was walking and thought of some correspondence I had over email. So, I did a search and the keywords ended up pulling this draft together with other mails. One way or the other, I seem to have hit the send button but was not aware of it until I saw the first response from it. Could have been worse if I had sent out a more personal stuff, but thats my explanation of why its not well thought out Either way, think it was a good article to share, though I could have phrased it better William > -- > Walter Dnes > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > What about the fact that when a 404 is generated, there is also indication in the response header? Would that not allow an ISP to handle things to produce a missing child page? > > -David > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 2 19:52:27 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 15:52:27 -0400 Subject: Missing kids plan for 404 pages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121002195227.GG23027@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 01, 2012 at 04:03:23PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19741350 > > What do people have to say about this plan? Rogers does do hijack I think the main issue is that most people don't type URLs so why would they hit a 404 page at all other than if someone is sloppy and has broken links on their pages? It doesn't seem that likely to be useful. I think someone just thought "How about if we associate 'page not found' with 'child not found'. Wouldn't that be clever?". And really, it isn't that clever. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 3 16:11:49 2012 From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 12:11:49 -0400 Subject: MythTV 0.26 released Message-ID: This might interest many of the MythTV users on this list. Release notes: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Release_Notes_-_0.26 -- Sadiq S O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 16:24:15 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 12:24:15 -0400 Subject: Seen on teh interwebz Message-ID: Here is a quite well written guidebook on CryptoParties, the notion being to educate people on why they might want to use cryptography to keep parts of their lives a bit more private https://cryptoparty.org/wiki/CryptoPartyHandbook -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:06:41 2012 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 15:06:41 -0400 Subject: whoah! network manager won't let me use new wireless card Message-ID: Hi everyone, I have just installed a new wireless card in my Thinkp[ad T410 and it seems to work pretty well (yay). However, my Ubuntu Quantal system is having some trouble with it. As root I can access the card, add new connections, and so forth. But as a normal user I can't use the wireless at all. All of my old connections are still visible, but I've lost my permission to edit them. This is in my main account, where I have full admin privileges. What I'm guessing is that network-manager doesn't quite understand the new card somehow, and isn't giving up permissions to the user. I've tried various googlable solutions, mostly involving changing the poermissions in polkit, but they don't seem to have worked so far. Anyone know what I ought to do? I feel like network-manger needs to somehow reregister this card, but I don't know how to make that happen. If anyone has suggestions... I'd appreciatethem! Thanks Matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:11:06 2012 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 15:11:06 -0400 Subject: clearing out my very slow gnome session Message-ID: after logging in with another user, I realized that my main account on my laptop logs in VERY slowly by comparison. Anyone know how I can figureout what the hell is taking so long? I'm not even sure where such files are stored these days. thanks, matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:17:05 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 12:17:05 -0700 Subject: whoah! network manager won't let me use new wireless card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you see it with ifconfig/iwconfig? On Oct 5, 2012 12:07 PM, "Matt Price" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I have just installed a new wireless card in my Thinkp[ad T410 and it > seems to work pretty well (yay). However, my Ubuntu Quantal system is > having some trouble with it. As root I can access the card, add new > connections, and so forth. But as a normal user I can't use the > wireless at all. All of my old connections are still visible, but > I've lost my permission to edit them. This is in my main account, > where I have full admin privileges. > > What I'm guessing is that network-manager doesn't quite understand the > new card somehow, and isn't giving up permissions to the user. I've > tried various googlable solutions, mostly involving changing the > poermissions in polkit, but they don't seem to have worked so far. > Anyone know what I ought to do? I feel like network-manger needs to > somehow reregister this card, but I don't know how to make that > happen. > > If anyone has suggestions... I'd appreciatethem! > > Thanks > > Matt > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 19:20:41 2012 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 15:20:41 -0400 Subject: clearing out my very slow gnome session In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121005192041.GA30240@watson-wilson.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 03:11:06PM -0400, Matt Price wrote: >after logging in with another user, I realized that my main account on >my laptop logs in VERY slowly by comparison. Anyone know how I can Try killing dbus. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 20:15:34 2012 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 16:15:34 -0400 Subject: clearing out my very slow gnome session In-Reply-To: <20121005192041.GA30240-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20121005192041.GA30240@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: ok, but will that cause other programs to get confused? - On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 03:11:06PM -0400, Matt Price wrote: >> >> after logging in with another user, I realized that my main account on >> my laptop logs in VERY slowly by comparison. Anyone know how I can > > > Try killing dbus. > > -- > Neil Watson > Linux/UNIX Consultant > http://watson-wilson.ca > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 20:19:14 2012 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 16:19:14 -0400 Subject: whoah! network manager won't let me use new wireless card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: yes On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Do you see it with ifconfig/iwconfig? > > On Oct 5, 2012 12:07 PM, "Matt Price" wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I have just installed a new wireless card in my Thinkp[ad T410 and it >> seems to work pretty well (yay). However, my Ubuntu Quantal system is >> having some trouble with it. As root I can access the card, add new >> connections, and so forth. But as a normal user I can't use the >> wireless at all. All of my old connections are still visible, but >> I've lost my permission to edit them. This is in my main account, >> where I have full admin privileges. >> >> What I'm guessing is that network-manager doesn't quite understand the >> new card somehow, and isn't giving up permissions to the user. I've >> tried various googlable solutions, mostly involving changing the >> poermissions in polkit, but they don't seem to have worked so far. >> Anyone know what I ought to do? I feel like network-manger needs to >> somehow reregister this card, but I don't know how to make that >> happen. >> >> If anyone has suggestions... I'd appreciatethem! >> >> Thanks >> >> Matt >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 5 21:18:15 2012 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 17:18:15 -0400 Subject: clearing out my very slow gnome session In-Reply-To: References: <20121005192041.GA30240@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20121005211815.GA2652@watson-wilson.ca> On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 04:15:34PM -0400, Matt Price wrote: >ok, but will that cause other programs to get confused? Yes it will. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 03:18:51 2012 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 23:18:51 -0400 Subject: clearing out my very slow gnome session In-Reply-To: <20121005211815.GA2652-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20121005192041.GA30240@watson-wilson.ca> <20121005211815.GA2652@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 04:15:34PM -0400, Matt Price wrote: >> >> ok, but will that cause other programs to get confused? > > > Yes it will. > huh. that sounds... chaotic... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 6 03:46:48 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 23:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: clearing out my very slow gnome session In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Matt Price | after logging in with another user, I realized that my main account on | my laptop logs in VERY slowly by comparison. Anyone know how I can | figureout what the hell is taking so long? I'm not even sure where | such files are stored these days. I assume that you meant: I created another user account on my machine and logged into that instead of my normal account; the logging in on the new account was much faster. The difference must surely be in a dot-file -- that's where almost all per-user settings live. Try diffing the dot files of the two users with different behaviour. I take it that this is a Ubuntu 12.10 pre-release of some sort. Might have bugs, of course. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 7 20:22:24 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: slow booting after installation of another Linux Message-ID: After installing another version of Linux, my original Linux became slow to boot. Spoiler: The problem was that I let the new installation reformat the swap partition. In the process, it gave it a new UUID. That means that the fstab entries on the old system referred to the partition by a UUID that no longer existed or worked. Diagnosis: 1. booting was slow. The splash screen gives no clue other than time. 2. changed the "linux" line in grub.cfg, removing "quiet" and "rhgb". This means that logs will pour out as booting proceeds. (You can make this change on-the-fly, for a single boot, by asking grub to let you edit.) 3. During booting, the log pauses with a message somewhat like: systemd[1]: Recreating volatile files 4. After the boot, in dmesg output, at about the same timestamp, there are messages about not finding partitions with the old UUID. Fix: Edit /etc/fstab to refer to the swap partition with the new UUID. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 00:28:48 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FSOSS registration fees go up on Oct 11 Message-ID: According to Early bird prices are good until October 11. I don't know whether that is "until and including". I'm planning on attending the CUDA workshop on the Thursday too. There are imited seats, allocated to the first 32 registrants. On the Thursday there is an event for little hackable machines like Raspberry Pi: I'd be interested in that too. At last year's FSOSS, Dr. Eben Upton, the creator of the Raspberry Pi, was showing prototypes. See you there! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 01:09:10 2012 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:09:10 -0400 Subject: slow booting after installation of another Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 4:22 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > After installing another version of Linux, my original Linux became > slow to boot. > > Spoiler: > The problem was that I let the new installation reformat the swap > partition. In the process, it gave it a new UUID. That means that > the fstab entries on the old system referred to the partition by a > UUID that no longer existed or worked. > > Diagnosis: > > 1. booting was slow. The splash screen gives no clue other than time. > > 2. changed the "linux" line in grub.cfg, removing "quiet" and "rhgb". > This means that logs will pour out as booting proceeds. > (You can make this change on-the-fly, for a single boot, by > asking grub to let you edit.) > > 3. During booting, the log pauses with a message somewhat like: > systemd[1]: Recreating volatile files > > 4. After the boot, in dmesg output, at about the same timestamp, there > are messages about not finding partitions with the old UUID. > > Fix: > > Edit /etc/fstab to refer to the swap partition with the new UUID. Great story. Better than "Twilight". Would read again. :-) Thanks for the problem report and solution, Hugh! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 01:11:32 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:11:32 -0400 Subject: FSOSS registration fees go up on Oct 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121008011132.GA3726@node1.opengeometry.net> Does anyone know the time of the event, especially CUDA workshop? -- William On Sun, Oct 07, 2012 at 08:28:48PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > According to > > Early bird prices are good until October 11. I don't know whether that is > "until and including". > > I'm planning on attending the CUDA workshop on the Thursday too. There > are imited seats, allocated to the first 32 registrants. > > On the Thursday there is an event for little hackable machines like > Raspberry Pi: > > I'd be interested in that too. At last year's FSOSS, Dr. Eben Upton, the > creator of the Raspberry Pi, was showing prototypes. > > See you there! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 01:36:33 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:36:33 -0400 Subject: Disable Thinkpad mouse buttons Message-ID: My father has a Thinkpad E520 running Debian and he wants a few of the mouse buttons disabled (he hits them with his hands when he types producing unexpected results). Thinkpad E520 has a touchpad with left-, middle-, right-click buttons along the top and left-, right-click button along the bottom. He would like the 3 mouse buttons along the top of the touchpad to be disabled. I came across this HOWTO - http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_configure_the_TrackPoint - that provided this snippet of code to disable the middle-button: xmodmap -e "pointer = 1 9 3 4 5 6 7 8 2" ... and it indeed works and disables the middle mouse button (no idea what that series of numbers signify or what it is doing, though). How can I disable the left- and right-click mouse buttons? Thanks for any help. -- www.circuidipity.com :: twitter.com/circuidipity .~. / /V\ // \\ /( )\ ^`~`^ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 16:07:30 2012 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 12:07:30 -0400 Subject: slow booting after installation of another Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121008160730.GX24789@adb.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > After installing another version of Linux, my original Linux became > slow to boot. > > Spoiler: > The problem was that I let the new installation reformat the swap > partition. In the process, it gave it a new UUID. That means that > the fstab entries on the old system referred to the partition by a > UUID that no longer existed or worked. I just love new technologies that replace the problems they're touted as solving with a shiny new set of problems. > Diagnosis: > > 1. booting was slow. The splash screen gives no clue other than time. The joy of hotplugging: any device that isn't around when needed might be later, so let's procrastinate and maybe it'll show up in a bit. The joy of user-friendliness: error messages are confrontational, so it's somehow better to just fail silently and refuse to admit there's any problem. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 16:25:43 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:25:43 -0400 Subject: slow booting after installation of another Linux In-Reply-To: <20121008160730.GX24789-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20121008160730.GX24789@adb.ca> Message-ID: <5072FE87.2040705@ve3syb.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Spoiler: > The problem was that I let the new installation reformat the swap > partition. In the process, it gave it a new UUID. That means that > the fstab entries on the old system referred to the partition by a > UUID that no longer existed or worked. It is also why I avoid using UUID's in fstab. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 17:18:45 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:18:45 -0400 Subject: slow booting after installation of another Linux In-Reply-To: <5072FE87.2040705-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20121008160730.GX24789@adb.ca> <5072FE87.2040705@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <50730AF5.5050608@sobac.com> On 12-10-08 12:25 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> Spoiler: >> The problem was that I let the new installation reformat the swap >> partition. In the process, it gave it a new UUID. That means that >> the fstab entries on the old system referred to the partition by a >> UUID that no longer existed or worked. > > It is also why I avoid using UUID's in fstab. Yes, I assign a label, then use that in the fstabs for both installations (by manually editing fstab after installation). Great for sharing home partitions across installations as well. Are there any Linuces that use a different format for swap partitions? Or does mkswap always create the same format, regardless of distribution or version? --Bob. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 324 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 17:51:28 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 13:51:28 -0400 Subject: slow booting after installation of another Linux In-Reply-To: <5072FE87.2040705-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20121008160730.GX24789@adb.ca> <5072FE87.2040705@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: n Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> >> Spoiler: >> The problem was that I let the new installation reformat the swap >> partition. In the process, it gave it a new UUID. That means that >> the fstab entries on the old system referred to the partition by a >> UUID that no longer existed or worked. > > > It is also why I avoid using UUID's in fstab. I'd not think that the fault of this is the use of UUIDs; the UUID is just a label constructed with a reasonable expectation of uniqueness. Is the problem with UUID usage that: a) They're bad labels? That seems unlikely; they're not memorable, but that's not unintentional. b) The use of a label is bad? Again, I don't think so. The emergence of dynamic disk-like devices, and lots potentially on buses, means that we can no longer expect particular stability of /dev/sda being the same device from one bootup to the next. I suppose it's somewhat nice if one can arrive at labels that are human interpretable; that's likely to make them easier to organize. But Linux distributions have to cope with there being humans that don't even know there's some reason to attach a label. We have plenty of cases already where people are forced to make up encodings; adding more isn't an obvious feature. (A "forced to" case is with local networks. What's 192.168.0.1 to you? :-)) I'm being bitten by an edge case on the "UUID/label" thing, lately. I have been trying out BTRFS, and, with there being no guarantee that the disks on the "BTRFS array" will forcibly be /dev/sdc and /dev/sdd, I'm not able to consistently able to get the BTRFS filesystem to mount at boot time. There is a labelling command for BTRFS... $ btrfs filesystem label /dev/sdc my-favorite-label is *supposed* to work, but has a strange constraint that seems to make this useless. NOTE: Currently there are the following limitations: - the filesystem has to be unmounted - the filesystem should not have more than one device. I merged two disks into the filesystem, so my system 'fails' on the latter aspect. Mind you, there's something odd about the failure. Note it doesn't say what kind of failure will take place under the >1 device condition. wolfe:~# btrfs filesystem show Label: '3463deb0-0a63-11e2-b113-0013d4789ffa' uuid: 396ae2ef-a891-4a8d-8ee7-543bcc069ec9 Total devices 2 FS bytes used 3.55TB devid 2 size 1.82TB used 1.82TB path /dev/sdd devid 1 size 1.82TB used 1.82TB path /dev/sdc Btrfs Btrfs v0.19 It appears as though I have not one, but two labels attached to my favorite large filesystem. But if I set up a UUID=... /brownes/wolfe/btrfs btrfs defaults entry in /etc/fstab, mount doesn't seem happy about recognizing this. [Mumble, looking at "man mount"] Perhaps I should instead look at LABEL=, if I assigned a label... Heh. That did the trick! LABEL=3463deb0-0a63-11e2-b113-0013d4789ffa /brownes/wolfe/btrfs btrfs defaults --> mount /brownes/wolfe/btrfs now works as expected... There's something that's a pain about this; it seems to me as though we don't need both a LABEL and UUID to label a filesystem. Rather, UUID seems like a way to automatically generate a label for those that don't want to expend though on label generation. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 8 19:04:57 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 15:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: slow booting after installation of another Linux In-Reply-To: <50730AF5.5050608-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20121008160730.GX24789@adb.ca> <5072FE87.2040705@ve3syb.ca> <50730AF5.5050608@sobac.com> Message-ID: | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | Yes, I assign a label, then use that in the fstabs for both | installations (by manually editing fstab after installation). Great for | sharing home partitions across installations as well. I didn't know that you could label swap files. Apparently mkswap can label "new style" swap partitions (new is not very new any more: old style swap areas were limited to 128MiB on x86 so they had to go). Can anything label a swap partition without also initializing it? In particular, I like labeling partitions (using e2label) after they are created since the GUI tools for distro installation don't seem to let you specify labels. UUIDs can be created automatically by the system. This avoid bothering the human. If you have two partitions with the same designator on one system, confusion rains. UUIDs are more likely unique than human-assigned labels. It is very easy to have two disks that were on different systems, assign them overlapping partition labels, and then put on the same machine -- I've done it. I've actually gotten into the same mess with UUIDs. I've cloned a disk partition with dd(1), duping the UUID. But that takes active stupidity. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 9 17:59:48 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 13:59:48 -0400 Subject: Disable Thinkpad mouse buttons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121009175948.GA18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 07, 2012 at 09:36:33PM -0400, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > My father has a Thinkpad E520 running Debian and he wants a few of the > mouse buttons disabled (he hits them with his hands when he types > producing unexpected results). > > Thinkpad E520 has a touchpad with left-, middle-, right-click buttons > along the top and left-, right-click button along the bottom. He would > like the 3 mouse buttons along the top of the touchpad to be disabled. > > I came across this HOWTO - > http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_configure_the_TrackPoint - that > provided this snippet of code to disable the middle-button: > > xmodmap -e "pointer = 1 9 3 4 5 6 7 8 2" > > ... and it indeed works and disables the middle mouse button (no idea > what that series of numbers signify or what it is doing, though). It assigns button one to work as button 1, button 2 to work as button 9 (usually does nothing), button 3 to work as button 3, etc. > How can I disable the left- and right-click mouse buttons? Thanks for any help. Well I suspect the result (unless you can convince X that the buttons for the touch pad are different than the buttons for the trackpoint) will be to disable all left and right buttons on the system. If you can manage to apply a map to a specific input device rather than to the system overall, then you should be able to do something about them. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 10 04:51:49 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 00:51:49 -0400 Subject: Disable Thinkpad mouse buttons In-Reply-To: <20121009175948.GA18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20121009175948.GA18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> I came across this HOWTO - >> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_configure_the_TrackPoint - that >> provided this snippet of code to disable the middle-button: >> >> xmodmap -e "pointer = 1 9 3 4 5 6 7 8 2" >> >> ... and it indeed works and disables the middle mouse button (no idea >> what that series of numbers signify or what it is doing, though). > > It assigns button one to work as button 1, button 2 to work as button 9 > (usually does nothing), button 3 to work as button 3, etc. > >> How can I disable the left- and right-click mouse buttons? Thanks for any help. > > Well I suspect the result (unless you can convince X that the buttons > for the touch pad are different than the buttons for the trackpoint) > will be to disable all left and right buttons on the system. > > If you can manage to apply a map to a specific input device rather than > to the system overall, then you should be able to do something about them. Thanks Lennart ... When I visit him next week I will do a bit of experimenting. -- www.circuidipity.com :: twitter.com/circuidipity .~. / /V\ // \\ /( )\ ^`~`^ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 22:42:55 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 18:42:55 -0400 Subject: Logging solutions? Message-ID: I have added a couple more little boxes into my home environment, and it seems as though I probably ought to have *some* centralized examination of syslog and similar data. Nagios seems as though it's likely to be overkill. I poked around a little bit at answers and it looks as though solutions often get pretty heavyweight for something that I want to pay as *little* attention to as I can. Somewhat interesting is a tool called "petit" crunchtools.com/software/petit/ The creator discusses some ideas surrounding trimming out irrelevancies via what he terms "artificial ignorance" http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/papers/ai/index.html The most-referenced listing of log analysis tools that I find is this one: . Does anyone have better? There's something elegant about some of the thoughts in "petit", have to poke at that more... As a complete aside, the clever hack of the day is to diminish peoples' annoyance at your phone making curious sounds by having That Notification Tone be something that you can recognize but that they probably won't perceive... http://lifehacker.com/5950285/make-a-coughing-ringtone-to-go-unnoticed-when-you-forget-to-silence-your-phone -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 11 23:42:58 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 19:42:58 -0400 Subject: Logging solutions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50775982.1030507@utoronto.ca> On 12-10-11 06:42 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > I have added a couple more little boxes into my home environment, and > it seems as though I probably ought to have *some* centralized > examination of syslog and similar data. > > Nagios seems as though it's likely to be overkill. > > I poked around a little bit at answers and it looks as though > solutions often get pretty heavyweight for something that I want to > pay as *little* attention to as I can. > > Somewhat interesting is a tool called "petit" > crunchtools.com/software/petit/ > > The creator discusses some ideas surrounding trimming out > irrelevancies via what he terms "artificial ignorance" > http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/papers/ai/index.html > > The most-referenced listing of log analysis tools that I find is this > one: . Does > anyone have better? > > There's something elegant about some of the thoughts in "petit", have > to poke at that more... I use a central rsyslog server with the relp plugin. From there judicious use of logcheck ignore rules keeps the noise down to a minimum. There's overhead at first in narrowing down what to ignore, but the default set is pretty good out of the box. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 01:41:25 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:41:25 -0400 Subject: GUI app to make RPM or DEB package? Message-ID: <20121012014124.GA16352@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi, Is there graphical frontend in making your own RPM or DEB package? It seems that "apt-get" and "yum" are just installer, not package creator. I mean, after ./configure make make install DESTDIR=/tmp/xxx what do you do? In Slackware, you simply run "makepkg" from /tmp/xxx. I'm not sure what I have to run in order to build DEB or RPM package. I use Slackware, but in the latest Slackware-14 (x64), my USB keyboard and mouse stop working at the login prompt. So, I'm looking for another distro. :-( -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 01:43:43 2012 From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:43:43 -0400 Subject: GUI app to make RPM or DEB package? In-Reply-To: <20121012014124.GA16352-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20121012014124.GA16352@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 9:41 PM, William Park wrote: > Hi, > > Is there graphical frontend in making your own RPM or DEB package? > It seems that "apt-get" and "yum" are just installer, not package > creator. > > I mean, after > ./configure > make > make install DESTDIR=/tmp/xxx > what do you do? In Slackware, you simply run "makepkg" from /tmp/xxx. > I'm not sure what I have to run in order to build DEB or RPM package. > > I use Slackware, but in the latest Slackware-14 (x64), my USB keyboard > and mouse stop working at the login prompt. So, I'm looking for another > distro. :-( > -- > William > -- Debian has some excellent documentation regarding this. [1] - http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ [2] - http://wiki.debian.org/HowToPackageForDebian -- Sadiq S O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 02:48:25 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:48:25 -0400 Subject: GUI app to make RPM or DEB package? In-Reply-To: <20121012014124.GA16352-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20121012014124.GA16352@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <507784F9.9070203@ss.org> On 10/11/2012 09:41 PM, William Park wrote: > Hi, > > Is there graphical frontend in making your own RPM or DEB package? > It seems that "apt-get" and "yum" are just installer, not package > creator. > > I mean, after > ./configure > make > make install DESTDIR=/tmp/xxx > what do you do? In Slackware, you simply run "makepkg" from /tmp/xxx. > I'm not sure what I have to run in order to build DEB or RPM package. > > I use Slackware, but in the latest Slackware-14 (x64), my USB keyboard > and mouse stop working at the login prompt. So, I'm looking for another > distro. :-( > This is the documentation I used when creating my first package. It walk through taking what you have above to an rpm package. It uses the GNU hello project as an example. It's really is the Hello World of RPM tutorials. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_a_GNU_Hello_RPM_package?rd=A_Short_RPM_Tutorial More detailed and slightly fedora centric information is here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_an_RPM_package -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From michaelgalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 13:14:41 2012 From: michaelgalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org (Michael Galea) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:14:41 -0400 Subject: GUI app to make RPM or DEB package? In-Reply-To: <20121012014124.GA16352-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20121012014124.GA16352@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <507817C1.5070804@ruggedcom.com> On 11/10/12 09:41 PM, William Park wrote: > Hi, > > Is there graphical frontend in making your own RPM or DEB package? > It seems that "apt-get" and "yum" are just installer, not package > creator. > > I mean, after > ./configure > make > make install DESTDIR=/tmp/xxx > what do you do? In Slackware, you simply run "makepkg" from /tmp/xxx. > I'm not sure what I have to run in order to build DEB or RPM package. > > I use Slackware, but in the latest Slackware-14 (x64), my USB keyboard > and mouse stop working at the login prompt. So, I'm looking for another > distro. :-( This perl package might be of help for new package builders. It hid sid a last week. I haven?t tried it, but it claims to be able to help you lint your debs after their built. Package: libconfig-model-dpkg-perl (2.027) editor for Dpkg source files with validation The command 'cme edit dpkg' provide a graphical editor for most files of a package source.... -- Michael Galea -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From steven.meyer-bdq14YP6qtRg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 14:02:21 2012 From: steven.meyer-bdq14YP6qtRg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (steven.meyer) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:02:21 -0000 Subject: Position for Linux Admin Message-ID: <201210121402.q9CE2KKF003298@mail138c0.megamailservers.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 15:50:54 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:50:54 -0400 Subject: GUI app to make RPM or DEB package? In-Reply-To: <20121012014124.GA16352-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20121012014124.GA16352@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20121012155054.GB18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 09:41:25PM -0400, William Park wrote: > Is there graphical frontend in making your own RPM or DEB package? > It seems that "apt-get" and "yum" are just installer, not package > creator. > > I mean, after > ./configure > make > make install DESTDIR=/tmp/xxx > what do you do? In Slackware, you simply run "makepkg" from /tmp/xxx. > I'm not sure what I have to run in order to build DEB or RPM package. > > I use Slackware, but in the latest Slackware-14 (x64), my USB keyboard > and mouse stop working at the login prompt. So, I'm looking for another > distro. :-( Well you don't start by doing configure and make. You add that to the rules for making the package so that the entire thing is done by the package build. Now for a package that has a nice configure and make that has install with DESTDIR support, the entire debian/rules file needed would be: #!/usr/bin/make -f %: dh $@ Other than that you need a control file describing the package and such. Once that is all done you can run 'dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b' and it should create a .deb for you. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 12 22:39:17 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:39:17 -0400 Subject: slow booting after installation of another Linux In-Reply-To: References: <20121008160730.GX24789@adb.ca> <5072FE87.2040705@ve3syb.ca> <50730AF5.5050608@sobac.com> Message-ID: <50789C15.3040401@sobac.com> On 12-10-08 03:04 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Bob Jonkman wrote: > | Yes, I assign a label, then use that in the fstabs for both > | installations (by manually editing fstab after installation). Great for > | sharing home partitions across installations as well. > > I didn't know that you could label swap files. Apparently mkswap can > label "new style" swap partitions (new is not very new any more: old > style swap areas were limited to 128MiB on x86 so they had to go). I don't know about swap *files*, I apply the label to the partition before it's formatted as swap. Usually during the OS install from CD, but I've also created swap partitions (or LVs) after installation. Both parted and gparted label names work in fstab. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 324 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 18:31:56 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:31:56 -0400 Subject: Authentication while respecting DNT header Message-ID: Hi Got a question for the developers here. Looks like European will enforce DNT eventually, so I tried thinking what else would be affected. One thing that came in mind may be the need to change is authenticating browsers. We currently use session cookies, are these affected by DNT? If so, how else would you authenticate a browser without being out of compliance of DNT? I guess you can use URL change to identify authenticated session, but that can also have security issues? As in, if someone can intercept the URL, he/she can able to keep using the session. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19908880 Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 18:39:21 2012 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:39:21 -0400 Subject: FREE: XO-1, wireless card Message-ID: Hey Folks, I have an old OLPC XO-1 that my kids no longer use at all, and I'd like to see someone enjoy it a little before it is completely completely updated. Anyone on lthe list interested before I ask on Freecycle? I've also got the old wireless card from my Thinkpad T410 -- a Realtek, um, 89xx-something-or-other. It's a pretty standard a/g/n card, nothing fancy, but if you need a wireless card it might come in handy for you. Again, just checking in before freecycling. Thanks! matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 23:07:24 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:07:24 -0400 Subject: Logging solutions? In-Reply-To: <50781DA8.9020405-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <50781DA8.9020405@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 9:39 AM, David Collier-Brown wrote: > The petit link is broken, try https://code.google.com/p/petit-log/ The link *was* working when I first saw it; there's something interesting there. > I used Marcus's approach to write "antilog", described in the story > "Sherlock Holmes on Log Files", at > http://www.datacenterworks.com/stories/antilog.html. > > It's pretty easy to write config files for syslog and various apps and > thereby arrange for only unexpected log messages to be mailed to you > early in the morning, for you to read over your first coffee. In the interests of doing some of my own thing, I took Jamon's idea of setting up rsyslog to do centralized collection. Interestingly, it took a tiny amount of configuration, on Debian, to set things up to stow all nodes' data into a Postgres database, as the central representation. That makes writing awk-based rewriting rules a little bit awkward, but hey, maybe I create a rewriter into SQL! :-) Some useful food for thought here, and it's pretty slick how easy it was to centralize the data. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 14 23:39:25 2012 From: jasonspiro4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason A. Spiro) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:39:25 -0400 Subject: Logging solutions? In-Reply-To: References: <50781DA8.9020405@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 9:39 AM, David Collier-Brown wrote: >> The petit link is broken, try https://code.google.com/p/petit-log/ > > The link *was* working when I first saw it; there's something interesting there. > > [...] The Internet Archive has a copy. See . -- Jason Spiro: software/web developer/packager/trainer. Cellphone/IT consultant. I support Linux, UNIX, Windows, and more. Contact me to discuss your needs. Also ask me how I can reduce your phone and long-distance bills. +1 (416) 992-3445 / . -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 04:16:59 2012 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 00:16:59 -0400 Subject: FREE: XO-1, wireless card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507B8E3B.1030005@alteeve.com> Interested in XO-1. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 18:07:37 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:07:37 -0400 Subject: Authentication while respecting DNT header In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121015180737.GC18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 02:31:56PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > Got a question for the developers here. Looks like European will > enforce DNT eventually, so I tried thinking what else would be > affected. One thing that came in mind may be the need to change is > authenticating browsers. We currently use session cookies, are these > affected by DNT? If so, how else would you authenticate a browser > without being out of compliance of DNT? > > I guess you can use URL change to identify authenticated session, but > that can also have security issues? As in, if someone can intercept > the URL, he/she can able to keep using the session. > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19908880 I believe what they are going to mandate is something like DNT for user tracking for advertising purposes and such. Tracking a session when the user logs in for the purpose of doing what the user came there for is outside that scope. If you have seen how strangely appropriate ads can sometimes be on facebook and other random sites (usually those that are served by google's add system), then you have some idea what kind of long term cookies are being used to track your navigation around the internet. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 15 22:47:44 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:47:44 -0400 Subject: KW QuantalQuetzal Ubuntu 12.10 Release Party, 20 October 2012 at St. John's Kitchen Message-ID: <507C9290.4000600@sobac.com> Hello Everybodee! I'm happy to announce that we'll be having the Kitchener-Waterloo Ubuntu Release Party for the version named Quantal Quetzal, v12.10 at St. John's Kitchen this Saturday. The best parties always happen in the kitchen. Although we won't have access to the cooking facilities, bring along some snack food to share, maybe some blank DVDs, and your laptop or netbook. Here's the details: Saturday, 20 October 2012 from 4:00pm to 8:00pm St. John's Kitchen, 97 Victoria Street North Kitchener, Ontario Canada Map: http://osm.org/go/ZXnwWZAk?m Automobile parking is available through Heit Lane in the Worth A Second Look parking lot; bicyles can be locked to railings at the entrance to St. John's Kitchen. Event link: http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-ca/2029/detail/ -- Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Phone: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cell: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 324 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 16 17:09:09 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:09:09 -0400 Subject: GUI app to make RPM or DEB package? In-Reply-To: <20121012155054.GB18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20121012014124.GA16352@node1.opengeometry.net> <20121012155054.GB18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 12 October 2012 11:50, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 09:41:25PM -0400, William Park wrote: >> Is there graphical frontend in making your own RPM or DEB package? >> It seems that "apt-get" and "yum" are just installer, not package >> creator. >> >> I mean, after >> ./configure >> make >> make install DESTDIR=/tmp/xxx >> what do you do? In Slackware, you simply run "makepkg" from /tmp/xxx. >> I'm not sure what I have to run in order to build DEB or RPM package. >> >> I use Slackware, but in the latest Slackware-14 (x64), my USB keyboard >> and mouse stop working at the login prompt. So, I'm looking for another >> distro. :-( > > Well you don't start by doing configure and make. You add that to the > rules for making the package so that the entire thing is done by the > package build. > > Now for a package that has a nice configure and make that has install with DESTDIR support, the entire debian/rules file needed would be: > > #!/usr/bin/make -f > %: > dh $@ > > Other than that you need a control file describing the package and such. > > Once that is all done you can run 'dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b' and it > should create a .deb for you. On the other hand, if all you want to do is install some package locally that isn't available as a deb, it's a lot easier to use checkinstall: http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/checkinstall You do the usual drill, with a slight twist: ./configure make checkinstall make install (I think I have that right: read your docs ...) And after that, your home-compiled package is installed on your Debian system and you can remove it with a "apt-get purge whatever" command. Since it's an out-of-band package, it doesn't get tracked and updated by the system: you have to do that. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 12:48:18 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 08:48:18 -0400 Subject: ADSL Modems... Message-ID: My mother's ADSL modem (a basic TP-Link model) appears to have failed. I will be visiting her (near Ottawa) within the next month, and the question is: "What make/model of ADSL modem should I be packing with me?". Primary concern here is reliability, with cost secondary... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 13:12:27 2012 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:12:27 -0400 Subject: ADSL Modems... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5080003B.5020002@yaknet.ca> On 12-10-18 08:48 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > My mother's ADSL modem (a basic TP-Link model) appears to have failed. > I will be visiting her (near Ottawa) within the next month, and the > question is: "What make/model of ADSL modem should I be packing with > me?". Primary concern here is reliability, with cost secondary... > > I'm using the TP link 8616 for about a year with no issues. My phone line is surge protected and then the modem and router is secondarily protected and powered via a very good UPS. What I have recommend for my family members is to get a spare modem that way the family tech guy can walk them through getting you net back up. http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_1059_358&item_id=024298 John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 14:06:42 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:06:42 -0400 Subject: ADSL Modems... In-Reply-To: <5080003B.5020002-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <5080003B.5020002@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: <50800CF2.40609@rogers.com> John Myshrall wrote: > My phone line is surge protected All phone lines are surge protected where they enter the building. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 14:21:29 2012 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:21:29 -0400 Subject: ADSL Modems... In-Reply-To: <50800CF2.40609-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5080003B.5020002@yaknet.ca> <50800CF2.40609@rogers.com> Message-ID: In order for surge protectors to work properly they need to be as close to the hardware they are protecting as possible. Lightning will generate spikes on any length of wire. Dave Cramer On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:06 AM, James Knott wrote: > John Myshrall wrote: >> >> My phone line is surge protected > > > All phone lines are surge protected where they enter the building. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 14:35:25 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:35:25 -0400 Subject: ADSL Modems... In-Reply-To: References: <5080003B.5020002@yaknet.ca> <50800CF2.40609@rogers.com> Message-ID: <508013AD.9000003@rogers.com> Dave Cramer wrote: > In order for surge protectors to work properly they need to be as > close to the hardware they are protecting as possible. > > Lightning will generate spikes on any length of wire. In order to work properly, surge must have a direct & short ground connection. The incoming phone line is grounded directly to the building ground with a short piece of wire. Surge protectors connected near the equipment will have a much longer ground path over a wire that's intended for electrical safety, rather than surge protection. Also, compared to the cables that are used to bring the phone line to your home, the length of wire within your home is negligible. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 14:48:22 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:48:22 -0400 Subject: ADSL Modems... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121018144822.GD18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 08:48:18AM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > My mother's ADSL modem (a basic TP-Link model) appears to have failed. > I will be visiting her (near Ottawa) within the next month, and the > question is: "What make/model of ADSL modem should I be packing with > me?". Primary concern here is reliability, with cost secondary... ADSL, ADSL2+, VDSL? Which level is needed. ADSL2+ would probably make sense to get these days since it covers all ADSL versions. You can't actually buy the VDSL modems yet so that wouldn't matter. Of course given you can get an ADSL2+ modem for $24, even if they are not the longest lasting device ever, it's not bad. http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_1059_358&item_id=024298 is a TP-Link for $24, whoever TP-Link is. There is a d-link ADSL2+ router for $40 as well. You can probably turn of the router part and just use it as a modem if you already have a router you want to use. I remember it used to be SpeedStream 5360 and such were considered among the best ADSL1 modems you could get. No idea if their new models for ADSL2+ are as well. >From searching a bit, some people find the d-link unreliable. Supposedly lots of techy websites really like Billion ADSL modems, such as the Billion 7300RA, which does not seem to exist in Canada at all. Very popular in Australia it would seem. The TP-link is supposed to work quite well unless you happen to be in an area where Bell uses a particular model of DSLAM which doesn't get along with the chipset in the TP-Link. No wonder ADSL is so hard to make reliable. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 17:52:16 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dell 14" notebook shipped with Ubuntu $299 today only Message-ID: Dell Business "10 Days of Deals" has a Vostro 2420 for $299. This is as cheap as a low end netbook but is better in a bunch of ways. I'm not sure of what all the goo is in a Dell URL, so here's an RFD thread that refers to it Intel Core i3-2328M (2.2GHz). Decent: 14" screen, surely 1366 x 768 (listed as "London Slate", but that is the colour of the case!) Intel HD Graphics 3000 (reasonable; built into CPU chip) WiFi b/g/n, Bluetooth, 1G wired 4G RAM 320G HDD Shipped with an unspecified version of Ubuntu. 4.83 lbs "Advertised System Weight". "No productivity software" which surely means that I didn't add MS Office. It cannot mean that they removed LibreOffice :-) All in all, seems like a bargain. Lennart would say: Dell notebooks are crap. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 18:25:50 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 14:25:50 -0400 Subject: Dell 14" notebook shipped with Ubuntu $299 today only In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121018182550.GE18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 01:52:16PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Dell Business "10 Days of Deals" has a Vostro 2420 for $299. > This is as cheap as a low end netbook but is better in a bunch of ways. > > I'm not sure of what all the goo is in a Dell URL, so here's an RFD > thread that refers to it > > > Intel Core i3-2328M (2.2GHz). Decent: > Way better than an atom that's for sure. > 14" screen, surely 1366 x 768 (listed as "London Slate", but that is > the colour of the case!) > Intel HD Graphics 3000 (reasonable; built into CPU chip) > WiFi b/g/n, Bluetooth, 1G wired > 4G RAM > 320G HDD Pretty reasonable for that price. > Shipped with an unspecified version of Ubuntu. > 4.83 lbs "Advertised System Weight". > > "No productivity software" which surely means that I didn't add MS > Office. It cannot mean that they removed LibreOffice :-) > > All in all, seems like a bargain. > > Lennart would say: Dell notebooks are crap. Well they certainly do have a history of being so. Is it stock Ubuntu or did they modify it to make it work? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 18:29:22 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 14:29:22 -0400 Subject: Dell 14" notebook shipped with Ubuntu $299 today only In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:52 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Dell Business "10 Days of Deals" has a Vostro 2420 for $299. > This is as cheap as a low end netbook but is better in a bunch of ways. Agreed that I expect some to consider it crap, with decent reason. It seems tempting as a possible replacement for my elderly "oh, my burning thighs!" MacBook, with considerably more of everything, and probably rather less "burning thighs" :-) Lennart's question of "is it really standard Ubuntu?" is a good question indeed. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 18:33:36 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 14:33:36 -0400 Subject: Dell 14" notebook shipped with Ubuntu $299 today only In-Reply-To: <20121018182550.GE18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20121018182550.GE18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Is it stock Ubuntu or did they modify it to make it work? I think this answers the question... http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/hardware/201202-10593/ -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 18:43:18 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 14:43:18 -0400 Subject: Dell 14" notebook shipped with Ubuntu $299 today only In-Reply-To: References: <20121018182550.GE18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121018184318.GF18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 02:33:36PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > Is it stock Ubuntu or did they modify it to make it work? > > I think this answers the question... > http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/hardware/201202-10593/ So does that mean if you try to install any other Linux distribution (or even Ubuntu version) it very well might not work? Odd that the ubuntu details lists an nvidia NVS 5200m (it's 10de:1140 in the unknown hardware section). I wonder if some models come with that, but not this one. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 19:31:44 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dell 14" notebook shipped with Ubuntu $299 today only In-Reply-To: <20121018184318.GF18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20121018182550.GE18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121018184318.GF18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 02:33:36PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: | > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Lennart Sorensen | > wrote: | > > Is it stock Ubuntu or did they modify it to make it work? | > | > I think this answers the question... | > http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/hardware/201202-10593/ I don't think that that is reliable (but it is surely useful). - that's old and the hardware has changed since then - it only certifies the per-installed Ubuntu (1 year out of date, as of today (Ubuntu 12.10 was released today)) - even so, Hibernate was disabled. Another reason for distrust: Dell released netbooks preinstalled with Ubuntu that required a Dell-only driver (Poulsbo video). On the other hand, this hardware looks really stock and should be a breeze for any current Linux distro. There is a slight chance that the wireless card isn't yet supported (I've had that with an HP computer) or that the ACPI is only good enough for Windows in some way (the hibernate note hints at that). | So does that mean if you try to install any other Linux distribution | (or even Ubuntu version) it very well might not work? What Christopher pointed at was a promise that an earlier version of the hardware worked (except for hibernate) with a potentially customized earlier version of the software. That sounds negative but in fact it is way more positive than what is promised with 99.9% of laptops. | Odd that the ubuntu details lists an nvidia NVS 5200m (it's 10de:1140 | in the unknown hardware section). I wonder if some models come with that, | but not this one. It is optional, perhaps only in US, perhaps only in the past. Dell does odd things in their offering web pages. I think that the intent is price discrimination. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 19:50:23 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released Message-ID: Even before you get it, you might notice some changes: - no longer a CD version. Or a version that fits on a CD. - no longer a DVD version. There used to be a larger version that exploited more of a DVD's . Now the standard desktop version is too big for a CD but only slightly so. - the download site asks you for money. Suggestion: $16. If you select $0 (which takes filling in 8 fields) it shows you a skull. - there are folks grumbling about Ubuntu's capturing and mining data about users. In particular, apparently desktop search is merged with web search and it goes through Canonical. I seem to have an old but growing culture clash with Canonical. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 20:05:35 2012 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:05:35 -0300 Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: o.O Perhaps in a few months/years they'll remove the "0 $" option?! o.O I'm not sure if this "no CD/DVD" strategy is a good option for Ubuntu. know so many people who does get started with Linux by using Ubuntu as their first distro. Some of them need it to be easy. Without a CD/DVD image could make it harder for some users. I know that USB flashs are easy to use, but it can cause some troubles for some users on "how to burn this image on my flash usb?", etc. Anyway, let's wait and see the news about it on the next weeks. =================================================== Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha - Kalib Graduando em Sistemas de Informa??es - EST?CIO/FIC Usu?rio Linux #407564 | Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 Fortaleza - Cear? - Brazil Celular: +55 085 87620983 Certifica??es: ITIL V3 | CSM | LPI-C1 | LPI-C2 | LPI-C3 | Novell CLA Minha Pessoa: Blog Projetos: Tux-CE | Archlinux-br | Chakra | KDE Brasil | TLUG | PUG-CE =================================================== Proteja meu endere?o como estou protegendo o seu. N?o revele e-mail dos correspondentes: use Cco (Copia Carbonada Oculta). Retire os endere?os antes de reenviar. Dificulte assim a dissemina??o de v?rus e spam. On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:50 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Even before you get it, you might notice some changes: > > - no longer a CD version. Or a version that fits on a CD. > > - no longer a DVD version. There used to be a larger version that > exploited more of a DVD's . Now the standard desktop version > is too big for a CD but only slightly so. > > - the download site asks you for money. Suggestion: $16. If you select > $0 (which takes filling in 8 fields) it shows you a skull. > > - there are folks grumbling about Ubuntu's capturing and mining data about > users. In particular, apparently desktop search is merged with web > search and it goes through Canonical. > > I seem to have an old but growing culture clash with Canonical. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 20:10:06 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5080621E.3030506@rogers.com> On 12-10-18 03:50 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Even before you get it, you might notice some changes: > > - the download site asks you for money. Suggestion: $16. If you select > $0 (which takes filling in 8 fields) it shows you a skull. > > - there are folks grumbling about Ubuntu's capturing and mining data about > users. In particular, apparently desktop search is merged with web > search and it goes through Canonical. > > I seem to have an old but growing culture clash with Canonical. > I have no reason to upgrade, and reasons to not upgrade. -- Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 20:22:44 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Marcelo Cavalcante | | I'm not sure if this "no CD/DVD" strategy is a good option for Ubuntu. I'm sorry, my wording was tricky, to make a point. They *do* release an image that can be burnt on a DVD (or USB stick). What's new is: (1) you cannot use a CD (2) the version to be burnt on a DVD does not exploit that available space (previous releases had a large DVD-only image). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 20:27:24 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:27:24 -0400 Subject: Dell 14" notebook shipped with Ubuntu $299 today only In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5080662C.70706@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Lennart would say: Dell notebooks are crap. He's not the only one. I had a Dell notebook at work. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 20:33:45 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:33:45 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released In-Reply-To: <3127_1350591063_q9IKB2EQ008698_5080621E.3030506-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3127_1350591063_q9IKB2EQ008698_5080621E.3030506@rogers.com> Message-ID: <508067A9.1070307@utoronto.ca> On 18/10/12 04:10 PM, Stephen wrote: > I have no reason to upgrade, and reasons to not upgrade. I'm sure some would appreciate hearing what said reasons are? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 20:40:37 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:40:37 -0400 Subject: [OT] Old Sangoma s514 T1 cards available. Message-ID: <50806945.4000809@ss.org> For the Telecom/ISP folks, We've recently been clearing out old equipment at work and found 5 Sangoma s514 T1 cards. These are PCI T1 interface cards designed to be linux friendly. New, in original packaging. They are a decade old, but I wanted to check if anyone wanted them before we put them out for e-cycling. If your interested please contact me off list. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 20:52:45 2012 From: mwilson-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:52:45 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released In-Reply-To: <5080621E.3030506-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5080621E.3030506@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1350593565.4126.2.camel@tecumseth3> On Thu, 2012-10-18 at 16:10 -0400, Stephen wrote: > I have no reason to upgrade, and reasons to not upgrade. I'm having a little trouble: the latest Java, therefore Arduino software isn't available on 10.04. Contemplating picking up yet another cheap laptop so I can rehearse installing something else -- latest Debian perhaps, and hunt for a desktop manager that doesn't aim to transform my life for the worse. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 20:58:47 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:58:47 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released In-Reply-To: <1350593565.4126.2.camel@tecumseth3> References: <5080621E.3030506@rogers.com> <1350593565.4126.2.camel@tecumseth3> Message-ID: <50806D87.8050007@utoronto.ca> On 18/10/12 04:52 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > On Thu, 2012-10-18 at 16:10 -0400, Stephen wrote: > >> I have no reason to upgrade, and reasons to not upgrade. > > I'm having a little trouble: the latest Java, therefore Arduino software > isn't available on 10.04. Contemplating picking up yet another cheap > laptop so I can rehearse installing something else -- latest Debian > perhaps, and hunt for a desktop manager that doesn't aim to transform my > life for the worse. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Java for details - you ought to be able to manually install the Sun JDK, or get a working OpenJDK for Lucid using those instructions. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 21:13:43 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:13:43 -0400 Subject: [OT] Old Sangoma s514 T1 cards available. In-Reply-To: <50806945.4000809-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <50806945.4000809@ss.org> Message-ID: <50807107.1090100@ss.org> On 10/18/2012 04:40 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > For the Telecom/ISP folks, > > We've recently been clearing out old equipment at work and found 5 > Sangoma s514 T1 cards. These are PCI T1 interface cards designed to be > linux friendly. New, in original packaging. Correction, slightly used. Still with original packaging and documentation. One box contains original floppy disks. > They are a decade old, but I wanted to check if anyone wanted them > before we put them out for e-cycling. > > If your interested please contact me off list. > -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 22:22:54 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:22:54 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released In-Reply-To: <50806D87.8050007-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <5080621E.3030506@rogers.com> <1350593565.4126.2.camel@tecumseth3> <50806D87.8050007@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <5080813E.7040004@sobac.com> For those interested, Michael Kaulbach (genii-around on IRC) is hosting an Ubuntu Release Party next week, 25 October, 8:00pm at the Alio Lounge, 108 Dundas Street West. Official event listing is at http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-ca/2025/detail/ There's a link for registration, but it's probably OK if you just drop in. Free cupcakes! Bottomless coffee! --Bob. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 22:35:44 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:35:44 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released In-Reply-To: <508067A9.1070307-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <3127_1350591063_q9IKB2EQ008698_5080621E.3030506@rogers.com> <508067A9.1070307@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <50808440.4060601@rogers.com> On 12-10-18 04:33 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 18/10/12 04:10 PM, Stephen wrote: >> I have no reason to upgrade, and reasons to not upgrade. > I'm sure some would appreciate hearing what said reasons are? > The two points that Hugh made that I quoted are negatives. Ubuntu 12.04 does everything I need, and it is a LTR. Also my last upgrade stalled, and I ended up having to reinstall from scratch. I like my application's window to have the menu, so I stick to classic Gnome. I am drifting away from Canonical. -- Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 22:36:00 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:36:00 -0400 Subject: ADSL Modems... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50808450.70806@sobac.com> I've had good experiences buying the Thomson Speedtouch ST516 from Acme Telephone. A venerable old model; all the ones I've installed are still running strong, some after 5 years of continuous uptime (requiring only the occasional reboot when the ISP has done something funky). http://www.speedtouch.ca/typesearch.php Acme Telephone is an authorized Thomson dealer, mail-order only, and offers next-day delivery. Looks like the price of the ST516 has come down, too (now $39.99) http://acmetelephone.ca/ --Bob, who for some reason is reminded of roadrunners... Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Phone: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cell: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting On 12-10-18 08:48 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > My mother's ADSL modem (a basic TP-Link model) appears to have failed. > I will be visiting her (near Ottawa) within the next month, and the > question is: "What make/model of ADSL modem should I be packing with > me?". Primary concern here is reliability, with cost secondary... > > > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 18 23:57:41 2012 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 19:57:41 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator Message-ID: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> I'm seeing a lot of consternation with Ubuntu surrounding the 12.10 release. I thought I'd throw my $0.02 out there for people to read or discard as they see fit. I started as a Red Hat user (pre-RHEL/FC split). I didn't like where Red Hat was going around the RH8 ~ RH9 days, so I switched to Debian. Of course, Debian and and always has been a server distro, so when Ubuntu came along in '05, I decided to give it a go. Like many, many others, I was converted. I was a die-hard Ubuntu user for a long time and many non-geek friends and family still use the Ubuntu machines I built for them. When I started going down the clustering road, I spend countless hours trying to make it work on Debian and Ubuntu. First I switched to CentOS on the servers, but stuck to Ubuntu for my desktop. I still had bad memories of my former Red Hat end-days and was extremely reluctant to try Fedora. In the end, I switched back around Fedora 13. There were the usual growing pains of getting used to the way Red Hat / Fedora did things, but I got used to it quickly enough. Now, after about two years of solid Fedora use, I am a pretty big fan again. Fedora is *far* from perfect. It's got plenty of sharp corners and more than a few grumpy community members, but when I go back to Ubuntu for one reason or another, I remember why I love it. For all it's wrinkles, it strikes me as a real open source community. In a way, I feel bad for Canonical. They need to pay the bills and I can only imagine how big their bills are. However, they've gone about it in a way that is, I think, something of a slap in the face of open source. To default-bundle ads, to put up a skull (cute as they may have tried to make it) when you don't offer them money is offensive. Yes, they have invested in a tremendous amount of overhead, but there are countless contributors on top of whom's work they build their OS. Anyway, my purpose was to say; If you are unhappy with Ubuntu, give Fedora a try. If you are happy with Ubuntu, and if you want to support Canonical, that's totally understandable, too. There is no denying that they've been wonderful for open source adoption. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 04:42:25 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 21:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADSL Modems... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1350621745.34258.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Check Teksavvy.com, and see which modem they are selling with their DSL packages. --William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Colin McGregor > To: tlug > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:48:18 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: ADSL Modems... > > My mother's ADSL modem (a basic TP-Link model) appears to have failed. > I will be visiting her (near Ottawa) within the next month, and the > question is: "What make/model of ADSL modem should I be packing with > me?". Primary concern here is reliability, with cost secondary... > > > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 09:33:05 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 05:33:05 -0400 Subject: ADSL Modems... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121019093305.GB20642@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 08:48:18AM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote > My mother's ADSL modem (a basic TP-Link model) appears to have failed. > I will be visiting her (near Ottawa) within the next month, and the > question is: "What make/model of ADSL modem should I be packing with > me?". Primary concern here is reliability, with cost secondary... I'm on a Thomson ST546, the 4-port version of the ST516. I bought it from Teksavvy almost 5 years ago, and it's running fine. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 09:56:19 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 05:56:19 -0400 Subject: Dell 14" notebook shipped with Ubuntu $299 today only In-Reply-To: References: <20121018182550.GE18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121018184318.GF18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121019095619.GC20642@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 03:31:44PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote > - even so, Hibernate was disabled. I ran into that problem with an Acer netbook with Poulsbo GPU. > Another reason for distrust: Dell released netbooks preinstalled > with Ubuntu that required a Dell-only driver (Poulsbo video). This was a problem with virtually all early Intel Atom netbooks, including my Acer. BTW, Poulsbo GPUs are now supported in the mainline kernel. See the thread... http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/58557 -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 11:19:39 2012 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:19:39 -0300 Subject: Ubuntu 12.10 released In-Reply-To: <50808440.4060601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <3127_1350591063_q9IKB2EQ008698_5080621E.3030506@rogers.com> <508067A9.1070307@utoronto.ca> <50808440.4060601@rogers.com> Message-ID: Reinstall it? o.O That's strange. I can't really comment about it because I'm not an Ubuntu user. (I use Arch and never really used Ubuntu before for more than a month - just don't like gnome). But my girlfriend uses Kubuntu on her laptop and since Kubuntu 09.10 we don't need to reinstall it from scratch. Always just updating and upgrading and never had big problems. I know that these distros (ubuntu - kubuntu) are quite independent and different, but most of the packages should be simmilar, also repos, or not?! =================================================== Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha - Kalib Graduando em Sistemas de Informa??es - EST?CIO/FIC Usu?rio Linux #407564 | Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 Fortaleza - Cear? - Brazil Celular: +55 085 87620983 Certifica??es: ITIL V3 | CSM | LPI-C1 | LPI-C2 | LPI-C3 | Novell CLA Minha Pessoa: Blog Projetos: Tux-CE | Archlinux-br | Chakra | KDE Brasil | TLUG | PUG-CE =================================================== Proteja meu endere?o como estou protegendo o seu. N?o revele e-mail dos correspondentes: use Cco (Copia Carbonada Oculta). Retire os endere?os antes de reenviar. Dificulte assim a dissemina??o de v?rus e spam. On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Stephen wrote: > On 12-10-18 04:33 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> On 18/10/12 04:10 PM, Stephen wrote: >> >>> I have no reason to upgrade, and reasons to not upgrade. >>> >> I'm sure some would appreciate hearing what said reasons are? >> >> The two points that Hugh made that I quoted are negatives. > > Ubuntu 12.04 does everything I need, and it is a LTR. > > Also my last upgrade stalled, and I ended up having to reinstall from > scratch. > > I like my application's window to have the menu, so I stick to classic > Gnome. I am drifting away from Canonical. > > -- > Stephen > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 14:44:16 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 10:44:16 -0400 Subject: ADSL Modems... In-Reply-To: <50808450.70806-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <50808450.70806@sobac.com> Message-ID: <20121019144415.GG18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 06:36:00PM -0400, Bob Jonkman wrote: > I've had good experiences buying the Thomson Speedtouch ST516 from Acme > Telephone. A venerable old model; all the ones I've installed are still > running strong, some after 5 years of continuous uptime (requiring only > the occasional reboot when the ISP has done something funky). > > http://www.speedtouch.ca/typesearch.php > > Acme Telephone is an authorized Thomson dealer, mail-order only, and > offers next-day delivery. Looks like the price of the ST516 has come > down, too (now $39.99) > > http://acmetelephone.ca/ And yet I found many reports of how awful the alcatel/thomsom/whoever owns it now speedtouch modems were. Although not as awful as GVC which tended to overheat and lockup apparently. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 14:51:28 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 10:51:28 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <50809775.5050909-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 07:57:41PM -0400, Digimer wrote: > I'm seeing a lot of consternation with Ubuntu surrounding the 12.10 > release. I thought I'd throw my $0.02 out there for people to read or > discard as they see fit. > > I started as a Red Hat user (pre-RHEL/FC split). I didn't like where Red > Hat was going around the RH8 ~ RH9 days, so I switched to Debian. Of > course, Debian and and always has been a server distro, so when Ubuntu > came along in '05, I decided to give it a go. Debian is 'the universal operating system'. I have run it as a desktop OS for 14 years now after I got fed up with the bugs in redhat. It is not just a server OS (although it is very popular for server use). > Like many, many others, I was converted. I was a die-hard Ubuntu user > for a long time and many non-geek friends and family still use the > Ubuntu machines I built for them. To me the release policy of Ubuntu was fundamentally wrong, and as far as I am concerned the quality problems I have seen in Ubuntu have proved me right. > When I started going down the clustering road, I spend countless hours > trying to make it work on Debian and Ubuntu. First I switched to CentOS > on the servers, but stuck to Ubuntu for my desktop. I still had bad > memories of my former Red Hat end-days and was extremely reluctant to > try Fedora. > > In the end, I switched back around Fedora 13. There were the usual > growing pains of getting used to the way Red Hat / Fedora did things, > but I got used to it quickly enough. Now, after about two years of solid > Fedora use, I am a pretty big fan again. > > Fedora is *far* from perfect. It's got plenty of sharp corners and more > than a few grumpy community members, but when I go back to Ubuntu for > one reason or another, I remember why I love it. For all it's wrinkles, > it strikes me as a real open source community. As long as redhat is deciding where it is going it will never be such a community to me. Debian on the other hand clearly is community developed. I also know I will never go back to an RPM based distribution after having used Debian. RPM is just way too painful to make packages for (and I find the rpm/yum interface too clumsy too). It was a vast improvement over slackware's patchetic concept of a package, but that was a long time ago. > In a way, I feel bad for Canonical. They need to pay the bills and I can > only imagine how big their bills are. However, they've gone about it in > a way that is, I think, something of a slap in the face of open source. > To default-bundle ads, to put up a skull (cute as they may have tried to > make it) when you don't offer them money is offensive. Yes, they have > invested in a tremendous amount of overhead, but there are countless > contributors on top of whom's work they build their OS. Debian manages fine without asking for funding. They get plenty of services and hardware donated just by being who they are and doing what they do. > Anyway, my purpose was to say; If you are unhappy with Ubuntu, give > Fedora a try. If you are happy with Ubuntu, and if you want to support > Canonical, that's totally understandable, too. There is no denying that > they've been wonderful for open source adoption. Or go back to Debian and get something truly open in every way and enjoy your stable system (or use testing or unstable if you want, they almost always work great too). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 15:55:02 2012 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 11:55:02 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121019145128.GH18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <508177D6.3040309@alteeve.ca> On 10/19/2012 10:51 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 07:57:41PM -0400, Digimer wrote: >> I'm seeing a lot of consternation with Ubuntu surrounding the 12.10 >> release. I thought I'd throw my $0.02 out there for people to read or >> discard as they see fit. >> >> I started as a Red Hat user (pre-RHEL/FC split). I didn't like where Red >> Hat was going around the RH8 ~ RH9 days, so I switched to Debian. Of >> course, Debian and and always has been a server distro, so when Ubuntu >> came along in '05, I decided to give it a go. > > Debian is 'the universal operating system'. I have run it as a desktop > OS for 14 years now after I got fed up with the bugs in redhat. It is > not just a server OS (although it is very popular for server use). > >> Like many, many others, I was converted. I was a die-hard Ubuntu user >> for a long time and many non-geek friends and family still use the >> Ubuntu machines I built for them. > > To me the release policy of Ubuntu was fundamentally wrong, and as far > as I am concerned the quality problems I have seen in Ubuntu have proved > me right. > >> When I started going down the clustering road, I spend countless hours >> trying to make it work on Debian and Ubuntu. First I switched to CentOS >> on the servers, but stuck to Ubuntu for my desktop. I still had bad >> memories of my former Red Hat end-days and was extremely reluctant to >> try Fedora. >> >> In the end, I switched back around Fedora 13. There were the usual >> growing pains of getting used to the way Red Hat / Fedora did things, >> but I got used to it quickly enough. Now, after about two years of solid >> Fedora use, I am a pretty big fan again. >> >> Fedora is *far* from perfect. It's got plenty of sharp corners and more >> than a few grumpy community members, but when I go back to Ubuntu for >> one reason or another, I remember why I love it. For all it's wrinkles, >> it strikes me as a real open source community. > > As long as redhat is deciding where it is going it will never be such > a community to me. Debian on the other hand clearly is community > developed. > > I also know I will never go back to an RPM based distribution after > having used Debian. RPM is just way too painful to make packages for > (and I find the rpm/yum interface too clumsy too). It was a vast > improvement over slackware's patchetic concept of a package, but that > was a long time ago. > >> In a way, I feel bad for Canonical. They need to pay the bills and I can >> only imagine how big their bills are. However, they've gone about it in >> a way that is, I think, something of a slap in the face of open source. >> To default-bundle ads, to put up a skull (cute as they may have tried to >> make it) when you don't offer them money is offensive. Yes, they have >> invested in a tremendous amount of overhead, but there are countless >> contributors on top of whom's work they build their OS. > > Debian manages fine without asking for funding. They get plenty of > services and hardware donated just by being who they are and doing what > they do. > >> Anyway, my purpose was to say; If you are unhappy with Ubuntu, give >> Fedora a try. If you are happy with Ubuntu, and if you want to support >> Canonical, that's totally understandable, too. There is no denying that >> they've been wonderful for open source adoption. > > Or go back to Debian and get something truly open in every way and enjoy > your stable system (or use testing or unstable if you want, they almost > always work great too). I would never fault someone for using Debian. I would like to comment on a couple of things though; I'm active in the Fedora community and from everything I've seen in the last two years, Red Hat is very hands-off Fedora. If anything, I've seen more stress from RHEL developers trying to meet Fedora people's expectations than the other way around. I think what people see is that Red Hat employees *many* people who contribute the Red Hat. This can be seen as a form of control. It's not a fair terms though... There is guidance though. For example, Red Hat will say to their devs; "There is a duplication of effort in these two projects", arrange meetings between the devs of the different projects and see if they can find a way to work together. I see this as providing resources and guidance, more than control, but I could also understand why people might see this as control. I'd only ask people interested in this to take the time to look at some fedora-hosted projects and see how the community works, then make up their mind. Again though; This is not to take away from the viability of Debian as a distro. I still stand by my argument that it is a server distro first, given it's dedication to stability over features (the same view I have for CentOS/RHEL), but of course people can use server distros as their workstation OS just fine. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 19 18:57:15 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 14:57:15 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <508177D6.3040309-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <508177D6.3040309@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: <20121019185715.GI18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 11:55:02AM -0400, Digimer wrote: > I would never fault someone for using Debian. I would like to comment on > a couple of things though; > > I'm active in the Fedora community and from everything I've seen in the > last two years, Red Hat is very hands-off Fedora. If anything, I've seen > more stress from RHEL developers trying to meet Fedora people's > expectations than the other way around. > > I think what people see is that Red Hat employees *many* people who > contribute the Red Hat. This can be seen as a form of control. It's not > a fair terms though... There is guidance though. For example, Red Hat > will say to their devs; "There is a duplication of effort in these two > projects", arrange meetings between the devs of the different projects > and see if they can find a way to work together. > > I see this as providing resources and guidance, more than control, but I > could also understand why people might see this as control. I'd only ask > people interested in this to take the time to look at some fedora-hosted > projects and see how the community works, then make up their mind. > > Again though; This is not to take away from the viability of Debian as a > distro. I still stand by my argument that it is a server distro first, > given it's dedication to stability over features (the same view I have > for CentOS/RHEL), but of course people can use server distros as their > workstation OS just fine. If Debian was a server OS it would not include most of the packages that it does. It includes almost everything you could imagine wanting. If someone wants to maintain it, it can be included. A server OS would focus on server things and not allow too much creep of unnecesary things. I think it is crazy to not want your desktop to be stable. Just think how many people have stuck with windows XP for the desktop. It's pretty stable by now and they know what to expect. That does NOT make windows XP a server OS. Desktop OS does not require having the latest version of everything, stability be damned. Never mind what Ubuntu thinks. Fedora is last I checked rather explicitly labeled as a development system for RHEL, and not expected to be stable (and new release often are very much not stable). Fedora includes things that are far from ready knowwingly with the hope that getting some use will help shake out the bugs. That is great for developers, not great for users, making fedora unsuitable as a desktop OS (never mind even imaginging a server OS) for most people. Adding things to a release that are known to be in an unuable state (which Fedora has done fairly recently) by redhat, to me is not something that makes for something in the best interest of the community of users (unless only developers get to count as part of the community, which does seem to match my understanding of the purpose of the fedora project). So based on my experience with redhat (which I used as a desktop from 2.0 to 6.0, and paid money for many CD sets of along the way) and RHEL and centos (which is not directly redhat) and reading about the choices made in fedora, and having tried to file bug reports (even providing a patch to fix an obvious problem) even with help from someone I knew that worked at redhat in their support department (the bug report was never accepted), I have been thoroughly convinced that if you don't have a RHEL support contract, your opinion matters not to redhat. This is fair enough, they are in the business of making money after all. I also still don't think RPM is a particularly good design for package handling. Making packages is way too much work and too error prone. Redhat does support lots of useful development (gcc, glibc (well somewhat), and a bunch of other stuff). That doesn't make their distributions good though. They are pretty good at fixing bugs for people on support contract though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 02:49:43 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 19:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121019145128.GH18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1350701383.15266.YahooMailNeo@web113403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> All these years attempting to try out Debian, I've never gone past installation.? I mean, ??? - boot install DVD ??? - install Debian and GRUB to a spare partition (/dev/sdj10) ??? - reboot Nothing.? So, ??? - boot "rescue disk" ??? - run"grub-install --force /dev/sdj10" ??? - reboot Still nothing. The only way I can actually run Debian is to install in VM and put GRUB in MBR.? If I want to try out new kernel (like, better wireless support), it's way easier to compile/install/remove in Slackware than in Debian/Redhat family.? The only thing about Slackware package is that it doesn't do dependency check. This is ok by me. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lennart Sorensen ... > Or go back to Debian and get something truly open in every way and enjoy > your stable system (or use testing or unstable if you want, they almost > always work great too). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 03:37:16 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 23:37:16 -0400 Subject: How stable is Debian Unstable? Message-ID: Building a bit on the thread about Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora ... I would be interested in any feedback from long-term Debian unstable/sid users. I have played with the various Debian branches (stable, testing, unstable) over the years. Stable for server setups + a few desktop installs with simple needs and usually testing for myself. I am currently running Debian unstable with no problems ... so far. A couple things I do that (might) make a difference to make the Debian unstable branch more stable: * installed apt-listbugs * use apt-get from the console (logged out of X) vs aptitude or synaptic * frequent upgrades (1-3 times a week) * use a simple window manager (Fluxbox) ... maybe a more complex desktop environment might cause problems??? So - out of curiosity - does anyone here use Debian Unstable as their daily desktop environment? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 08:39:41 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 09:39:41 +0100 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121019145128.GH18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I also know I will never go back to an RPM based distribution after > having used Debian. RPM is just way too painful to make packages for > (and I find the rpm/yum interface too clumsy too). It was a vast > improvement over slackware's patchetic concept of a package, but that > was a long time ago. I've never understood why people find making RPM's difficult in the least. I've always found it quite easy to whip up an RPM for anything I've needed (which over time grew a large collection). I'd be interested to hear why you found it difficult though... FWIW, I happily use both RHEL and Debian and find that they both have their place. If you're an enterprise and can afford RHEL (instead of CentOS), the RHN is definitely a good value add proposition when looking after a lot of systems. Although I use Ubuntu on the desktop, I cringe when I hear of its use on servers...they've rushed too many half baked things into LTS releases that you're essentially stuck with. Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 14:50:31 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 10:50:31 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/20/2012 04:39 AM, Ben Walton wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > >> I also know I will never go back to an RPM based distribution after >> having used Debian. RPM is just way too painful to make packages for >> (and I find the rpm/yum interface too clumsy too). It was a vast >> improvement over slackware's patchetic concept of a package, but that >> was a long time ago. > I've never understood why people find making RPM's difficult in the > least. I've always found it quite easy to whip up an RPM for anything > I've needed (which over time grew a large collection). I'd be > interested to hear why you found it difficult though... > > FWIW, I happily use both RHEL and Debian and find that they both have > their place. If you're an enterprise and can afford RHEL (instead of > CentOS), the RHN is definitely a good value add proposition when > looking after a lot of systems. Although I use Ubuntu on the desktop, > I cringe when I hear of its use on servers...they've rushed too many > half baked things into LTS releases that you're essentially stuck > with. > > Thanks > -Ben How easy is it to get all of the pertinent multimedia codecs installed on Fedora (I'd be interested in an answer for Debian also)? The main reason I use Ubuntu and have installed it on several family and friends' PCs is the ease with which I got multimedia working. I've often given up on it after installing Fedora. I really miss RH7.3 :-( John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 15:44:31 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 11:44:31 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> Fortunately, most of the half-baked things in Ubuntu are Unity related, and have little to do with servers stuff. I've administered servers with both Debian Stable and Ubuntu Server, and in comparison Debian feels primitive. But that may be because I'm so used to Ubuntu on the desktop. And there are four significant minor releases throughout the life of the LTS editions, so you're not stuck with half-bakedness too long. --Bob. On 12-10-20 04:39 AM, Ben Walton wrote: > Although I use Ubuntu on the desktop, I cringe when I hear of its > use on servers...they've rushed too many half baked things into LTS > releases that you're essentially stuck with. Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Phone: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cell: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 16:08:19 2012 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:08:19 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <5082C6DF.70208-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> Message-ID: <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 11:44:31AM -0400, Bob Jonkman wrote: > And there are four significant minor releases throughout the life of the > LTS editions, so you're not stuck with half-bakedness too long. This baffles me. Why accept any half-bakedness for any time at all, in your working environment? Debian stable is exactly that, rock-solid (if unexciting and not up-to-date), and Debian Testing, which I ran for years, is more solid than these "timed release" distros. Now I prefer Gentoo, which is not only a very solid stable rolling-release, but which is transparent all the way through (not only the package management system but the software itself is all open to inspection, fiddling, and recompiling). If I want to risk more bleeding-edge software I can always unmask packages, or use Gentoo unstable, or just write a shell script (an ebuild) and compile them myself; when things break I know who broke them, and often why they broke. But never mind *which* distro we're talking about. Why should anyone put up with half-bakedness forced on them as a consequence of a release schedule? That's what the Other OSes do -- OSX and Windows -- and there it's part of the whole package, take it or leave it. Well, I left it, and I'm not going to take it again. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 16:11:05 2012 From: stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stephen Gordon) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:11:05 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:50 AM, John Moniz wrote: > On 10/20/2012 04:39 AM, Ben Walton wrote: >> >> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen >> wrote: >> >>> I also know I will never go back to an RPM based distribution after >>> having used Debian. RPM is just way too painful to make packages for >>> (and I find the rpm/yum interface too clumsy too). It was a vast >>> improvement over slackware's patchetic concept of a package, but that >>> was a long time ago. >> >> I've never understood why people find making RPM's difficult in the >> least. I've always found it quite easy to whip up an RPM for anything >> I've needed (which over time grew a large collection). I'd be >> interested to hear why you found it difficult though... >> >> FWIW, I happily use both RHEL and Debian and find that they both have >> their place. If you're an enterprise and can afford RHEL (instead of >> CentOS), the RHN is definitely a good value add proposition when >> looking after a lot of systems. Although I use Ubuntu on the desktop, >> I cringe when I hear of its use on servers...they've rushed too many >> half baked things into LTS releases that you're essentially stuck >> with. >> >> Thanks >> -Ben > > > How easy is it to get all of the pertinent multimedia codecs installed on > Fedora (I'd be interested in an answer for Debian also)? The main reason I > use Ubuntu and have installed it on several family and friends' PCs is the > ease with which I got multimedia working. I've often given up on it after > installing Fedora. > > I really miss RH7.3 :-( > > John. In Fedora you still have to add an external repository (rpmfusion) to install the relevant non-free codec package for your media player, which I assume is the difficulty that you are referring to. I usually direct people to fedorafaq.org or fedorasolved.org for instructions. Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 16:48:35 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:48:35 -0400 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting Message-ID: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> I am kinda stumped what to do next, but not in a hurry so I thought I would ask the experts for advise. I am using Ubuntu 12.04 with classic gnome. When I insert a music CD it does not mount. This is in fstab: # Use 'blkid' to print the universally unique identifier for a # device; this may be used with UUID= as a more robust way to name devices # that works even if disks are added and removed. See fstab(5). # # proc /proc proc nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0 # / was on /dev/sda1 during installation UUID=fdc65bec-ed4b-407b-beef-b7c630f96acf / ext4 errors=remount-ro 0 1 # /more was on /dev/sda6 during installation UUID=976259d9-7cdf-4faf-94ea-b636e0b910c5 /more ext4 defaults 0 2 # swap was on /dev/sda5 during installation UUID=0cd6ede7-e59b-4577-9a73-a85a3c37aa85 none swap sw 0 0 UUID=75503554-d27d-4227-898b-f9ad783c939e /big0 ext4 errors=remount-ro 0 1 UUID=30d6b7e9-b6a2-4227-ad0a-e180ab2340ba /home ext4 errors=remount-ro 0 1 /dev/sr0 /media/cdrom0 udf,iso9660 user,noauto,exec,utf8 0 0 When I run: mount|grep ^'/dev' I get: /dev/sda1 on / type ext4 (rw,errors=remount-ro) /dev/sda6 on /more type ext4 (rw) /dev/sdb1 on /big0 type ext4 (rw,errors=remount-ro) /dev/sdc1 on /home type ext4 (rw,errors=remount-ro) I DO NOT get anything like: /dev/sr0 on /media/cdrom0 type iso9660 (ro,nosuid,nodev,user=ozzman) When I insert a CD the light comes on and it spins. The BIOS recognizes the CD-ROM drive. Where should I go from here? Many thanks . * * -- Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 16:57:27 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Stephen Gordon | On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:50 AM, John Moniz wrote: | > How easy is it to get all of the pertinent multimedia codecs installed on | > Fedora (I'd be interested in an answer for Debian also)? The main reason I | > use Ubuntu and have installed it on several family and friends' PCs is the | > ease with which I got multimedia working. I've often given up on it after | > installing Fedora. | In Fedora you still have to add an external repository (rpmfusion) to | install the relevant non-free codec package for your media player, | which I assume is the difficulty that you are referring to. I usually | direct people to fedorafaq.org or fedorasolved.org for instructions. Yeah. Fedora is right or perhaps righteous. Those things are mostly not authorized for a distro to include. So Ubuntu is stretching things, I think. But it sure is convenient. When I feel the need, I follow these instructions for Fedora: Pretty easy. You learn just what is problematic too. Without such a guide it would be a lot more work. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 16:59:38 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: <5082D5E3.60209-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: Stephen | When I insert a music CD it does not mount. Generally speaking, music CDs are not mounted. And they don't need to be to play or rip them. A bit surprising, I admit. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 17:07:22 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:07:22 -0400 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> Message-ID: <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> On 12-10-20 12:59 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Stephen > > | When I insert a music CD it does not mount. > > Generally speaking, music CDs are not mounted. And they don't need to > be to play or rip them. A bit surprising, I admit. Well neither Rythmbox (player) or Assunder(ripper) notice the music CD. In the Assunder preferences I specify /dev/sr0 as the CD-ROM device. -- Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 17:29:37 2012 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:29:37 -0400 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: <5082DA4A.9040304-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Stephen wrote: > On 12-10-20 12:59 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> >> | From: Stephen >> >> | When I insert a music CD it does not mount. >> >> Generally speaking, music CDs are not mounted. And they don't need to >> be to play or rip them. A bit surprising, I admit. > > Well neither Rythmbox (player) or Assunder(ripper) notice the music CD. > > In the Assunder preferences I specify /dev/sr0 as the CD-ROM device. Hardware sanity check - is there an audio connection from the CD drive to the sound card? -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 17:38:38 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:38:38 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 10/20/2012 12:11 PM, Stephen Gordon wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:50 AM, John Moniz wrote: >> On 10/20/2012 04:39 AM, Ben Walton wrote: >>> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I also know I will never go back to an RPM based distribution after >>>> having used Debian. RPM is just way too painful to make packages for >>>> (and I find the rpm/yum interface too clumsy too). It was a vast >>>> improvement over slackware's patchetic concept of a package, but that >>>> was a long time ago. >>> I've never understood why people find making RPM's difficult in the >>> least. I've always found it quite easy to whip up an RPM for anything >>> I've needed (which over time grew a large collection). I'd be >>> interested to hear why you found it difficult though... >>> >>> FWIW, I happily use both RHEL and Debian and find that they both have >>> their place. If you're an enterprise and can afford RHEL (instead of >>> CentOS), the RHN is definitely a good value add proposition when >>> looking after a lot of systems. Although I use Ubuntu on the desktop, >>> I cringe when I hear of its use on servers...they've rushed too many >>> half baked things into LTS releases that you're essentially stuck >>> with. >>> >>> Thanks >>> -Ben >> >> How easy is it to get all of the pertinent multimedia codecs installed on >> Fedora (I'd be interested in an answer for Debian also)? The main reason I >> use Ubuntu and have installed it on several family and friends' PCs is the >> ease with which I got multimedia working. I've often given up on it after >> installing Fedora. >> >> I really miss RH7.3 :-( >> >> John. > In Fedora you still have to add an external repository (rpmfusion) to > install the relevant non-free codec package for your media player, > which I assume is the difficulty that you are referring to. I usually > direct people to fedorafaq.org or fedorasolved.org for instructions. > > Steve I manage to add the repository, but the codecs don't seem to be there when I need them. Maybe I'm not downloading the right packages. I'm going to fiddle around some more with fedora and maybe provide more details. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 17:40:00 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> Message-ID: <5082E1F0.30509@rogers.com> On 12-10-20 01:29 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Stephen wrote: >> >> Well neither Rythmbox (player) or Assunder(ripper) notice the music CD. >> >> In the Assunder preferences I specify /dev/sr0 as the CD-ROM device. > Hardware sanity check - is there an audio connection from the CD drive > to the sound card? > No. But I believe that one is not necessary. It is a sata connection, and if the program could see the disc it would read it as data. -- Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 17:41:30 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 10:41:30 -0700 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> Message-ID: Shouldn't be needed for ripping, etc On Oct 20, 2012 10:30 AM, "Scott Elcomb" wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Stephen wrote: > > On 12-10-20 12:59 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >> > >> | From: Stephen > >> > >> | When I insert a music CD it does not mount. > >> > >> Generally speaking, music CDs are not mounted. And they don't need to > >> be to play or rip them. A bit surprising, I admit. > > > > Well neither Rythmbox (player) or Assunder(ripper) notice the music CD. > > > > In the Assunder preferences I specify /dev/sr0 as the CD-ROM device. > > Hardware sanity check - is there an audio connection from the CD drive > to the sound card? > > -- > Scott Elcomb > @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more > > Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems > http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ > > Member of the Pirate Party of Canada > http://www.pirateparty.ca/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 18:07:59 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 14:07:59 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> Message-ID: <5082E87F.1030007@sobac.com> On 12-10-20 12:08 PM, Peter King wrote: > This baffles me. Why accept any half-bakedness for any time at all, > in your working environment? If I knew about half-bakedness ahead of time I wouldn't install it. I don't think anyone would intentionally install something they knew to be half-baked. My point was that I'd only have to wait for the next point release to see if it was fixed; not the entire LTS cycle. And this is what test environments are for. Any half-bakedness should be discovered when you test a new release. Anyone who installs untested software in a production environment should be made to return their sysadmin hat. > Why should anyone put up with half-bakedness forced on them as a > consequence of a release schedule? That's what the Other OSes do -- > OSX and Windows -- and there it's part of the whole package, take it > or leave it. Even on a timed-release distro like Ubuntu you're not forced to accept the whole package. You can add repositories from application developers to ensure you stay up-to-date on critical software, or you can pin packages at an older version number to avoid known half-bakedness in recent releases. Windows and MacOS probably not so much. --Bob. On 12-10-20 12:08 PM, Peter King wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 11:44:31AM -0400, Bob Jonkman wrote: > >> And there are four significant minor releases throughout the life >> of the LTS editions, so you're not stuck with half-bakedness too >> long. > > This baffles me. Why accept any half-bakedness for any time at all, > in your working environment? > > Debian stable is exactly that, rock-solid (if unexciting and not > up-to-date), and Debian Testing, which I ran for years, is more solid > than these "timed release" distros. Now I prefer Gentoo, which is not > only a very solid stable rolling-release, but which is transparent > all the way through (not only the package management system but the > software itself is all open to inspection, fiddling, and > recompiling). If I want to risk more bleeding-edge software I can > always unmask packages, or use Gentoo unstable, or just write a shell > script (an ebuild) and compile them myself; when things break I know > who broke them, and often why they broke. > > But never mind *which* distro we're talking about. Why should anyone > put up with half-bakedness forced on them as a consequence of a > release schedule? That's what the Other OSes do -- OSX and Windows -- > and there it's part of the whole package, take it or leave it. Well, > I left it, and I'm not going to take it again. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 18:50:41 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 14:50:41 -0400 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: <5082E1F0.30509-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> <5082E1F0.30509@rogers.com> Message-ID: <5082F281.4070902@rogers.com> Stephen wrote: > No. But I believe that one is not necessary. It is a sata connection, > and if the program could see the disc it would read it as data. Yes it is. I've never had a CD or DVD drive that could play audio without an audio connection of some sort. Audio tracks are not "data" in the sense of computer files. They are just a continuous stream of bits representing the music. CD burner programs can read those tracks and copy them to a file that can be played. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 19:03:58 2012 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 15:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: <5082F281.4070902-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> <5082E1F0.30509@rogers.com> <5082F281.4070902@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012, James Knott wrote: > Stephen wrote: >> No. But I believe that one is not necessary. It is a sata connection, and >> if the program could see the disc it would read it as data. > > Yes it is. I've never had a CD or DVD drive that could play audio without an > audio connection of some sort. Audio tracks are not "data" in the sense of > computer files. They are just a continuous stream of bits representing the > music. CD burner programs can read those tracks and copy them to a file that > can be played. No, it's not necessary. It's only required if you want to play the CD directly; it's not necessary for ripping it. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 19:26:50 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 15:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> <5082E1F0.30509@rogers.com> <5082F281.4070902@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: Chris F.A. Johnson | On Sat, 20 Oct 2012, James Knott wrote: | | > Stephen wrote: | > > No. But I believe that one is not necessary. It is a sata connection, and | > > if the program could see the disc it would read it as data. | > | > Yes it is. I've never had a CD or DVD drive that could play audio without | > an audio connection of some sort. Audio tracks are not "data" in the sense | > of computer files. They are just a continuous stream of bits representing | > the music. CD burner programs can read those tracks and copy them to a file | > that can be played. | | No, it's not necessary. | | It's only required if you want to play the CD directly; it's not necessary | for ripping it. Let me amplify the point Chris is making. The computer has access to the bits on an audio CD. These come in as WAV files, essentially (16-bit PCM, 44.1KHz, uncompressed). There is a structure like a filesystem, but OSes have opted not to treat them as filesystems. Most CD and DVD drives also have analogue out. This is hardly ever useful these days: - you cannot use these as stand-alone CD players since there are no buttons for play, fast forward, rewind, next track, etc. So you need a computer to do this. - in the initial days of CD-ROM drives, audio was an oddity. Programs to read audio tracks digitally were rare and took considerable CPU. Of a 286. Software and hardware has advanced. Mixing used to be analogue. Now it is digital. So using analogue out from a CD drive these days is worse than pointless: it requires more hardware and loses fidelity. - I'd bet that the ditital-analogue converters (DACs) on CDROM drives are junk since every penny matters in that business and good DACs appear to be expensive. Of course it just might be that audiophiles are unreasonably critical of cheap DACs. I don't ever play CDs on a computer. I do rip them sometimes. I think that there are bunches of programs to rip CDs. I think that most use cd-paranoia to do the actual ripping. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 19:35:02 2012 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 15:35:02 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5082FCE6.2040903@alteeve.ca> On 10/20/2012 12:57 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Stephen Gordon > > | On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:50 AM, John Moniz wrote: > > | > How easy is it to get all of the pertinent multimedia codecs installed on > | > Fedora (I'd be interested in an answer for Debian also)? The main reason I > | > use Ubuntu and have installed it on several family and friends' PCs is the > | > ease with which I got multimedia working. I've often given up on it after > | > installing Fedora. > > | In Fedora you still have to add an external repository (rpmfusion) to > | install the relevant non-free codec package for your media player, > | which I assume is the difficulty that you are referring to. I usually > | direct people to fedorafaq.org or fedorasolved.org for instructions. > > Yeah. Fedora is right or perhaps righteous. Those things are > mostly not authorized for a distro to include. So Ubuntu is > stretching things, I think. But it sure is convenient. > > When I feel the need, I follow these instructions for Fedora: > > Pretty easy. You learn just what is problematic too. > > Without such a guide it would be a lot more work. I suspect it's less to do with righteousness and more to do with liability. Given that Fedora is the upstream source for RHEL, and given the number of Red Hat employees who develop for Fedora, it would not be much of a stretch for a copyright holder to go after Red Hat if Fedora was seen to be stepping on copyrights. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 20 20:10:35 2012 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 16:10:35 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <5082FCE6.2040903-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082FCE6.2040903@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: <000f01cdaefe$f7bac0b0$e7304210$@iprimus.ca> Actually the Rpmfusion repositories provide Fedora users with all the multimedia codecs Clive -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Digimer Sent: October-20-12 3:35 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Cc: D. Hugh Redelmeier Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator On 10/20/2012 12:57 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Stephen Gordon > > | On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:50 AM, John Moniz wrote: > > | > How easy is it to get all of the pertinent multimedia codecs > | > installed on Fedora (I'd be interested in an answer for Debian > | > also)? The main reason I use Ubuntu and have installed it on > | > several family and friends' PCs is the ease with which I got > | > multimedia working. I've often given up on it after installing Fedora. > > | In Fedora you still have to add an external repository (rpmfusion) > | to install the relevant non-free codec package for your media > | player, which I assume is the difficulty that you are referring to. > | I usually direct people to fedorafaq.org or fedorasolved.org for instructions. > > Yeah. Fedora is right or perhaps righteous. Those things are mostly > not authorized for a distro to include. So Ubuntu is stretching > things, I think. But it sure is convenient. > > When I feel the need, I follow these instructions for Fedora: > > Pretty easy. You learn just what is problematic too. > > Without such a guide it would be a lot more work. I suspect it's less to do with righteousness and more to do with liability. Given that Fedora is the upstream source for RHEL, and given the number of Red Hat employees who develop for Fedora, it would not be much of a stretch for a copyright holder to go after Red Hat if Fedora was seen to be stepping on copyrights. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 21 02:04:28 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 22:04:28 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> Message-ID: <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 12:08:19PM -0400, Peter King wrote > Debian stable is exactly that, rock-solid (if unexciting and not up-to-date), > and Debian Testing, which I ran for years, is more solid than these "timed > release" distros. Now I prefer Gentoo, which is not only a very solid stable > rolling-release, but which is transparent all the way through (not only the > package management system but the software itself is all open to inspection, > fiddling, and recompiling). Agree with a previous poster about missing Redhat 7.3. It was the best Redhat ever. RH8 and RH9 were Windows-like bloat in comparison. In an over-reaction to rapid version releases by Redhat, I went to, Debian, a distro which allegedly had 3 flavours... "Rusty", "Stale", and "Ancient". I actually loved it for a while. That was back in the day when Mozilla's lightweight browser was called Phoenix, and Realplayer was king of the multimedia hill. It was great for a while. Then some security updates of Phoenix and Realplayer needed newer versions of libraries than Debian had. So "Rusty"/"Stale"/"Ancient" came back to bite me. Then I switched to CRUX linux http://crux.nu/ where I learned to "make menuconfig" and build a custom kernel. I kept asking if they could optimize it beyond basic i686. Somebody on the list told me that I was really looking for Gentoo. That's where I went, and I'm still on it. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 21 16:18:15 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 12:18:15 -0400 Subject: How stable is Debian Unstable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used to, back in the days when it was rather more exciting than today. (Remember when Perl broke, and forced rolling upgrades back?). After the Perl troubles, the project got more careful, and occurrences have been pretty rare since. I'm mostly on testing, these days, with occasional unstable overrides. I wouldn't expect the difference to make much difference today, particularly for the scenario you describe. For "desktop" packages, which I think it is reasonable to assume the Gnomes, KDEs, and GTks of the world, things don't just dribble in piecemeal. Rather, they do releases, e.g. a new version of KDE, and they enter not as a package, into unstable, but rather as a whole stream of packages, into experimental. Only after they are seen to play well there do they get into unstable. So what you get there are pretty chunky updates. Particularly for desktoppy packages. You only get rapid changes streaming into Debian when you select something directly tracking SCM-based versions. And that tends to require conscious choice. E.g. I want bleeding edge GNU Emacs, I'll add the dev repo to my /etc/apt sources. Emacs 24 only entered Debian unstable pretty late in the process, when the Emacs devs were preparing the version 24 release. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 21 18:45:16 2012 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 14:45:16 -0400 Subject: CentOS Server Installation Message-ID: Hey all, Just joined the group Friday, and looking forward to the first F2F meeting. I wanted to ask a question about a CentOS install I'm doing right now. I've been having difficulty finding an install of CentOS 6.3 that will allow me to install just the server applications without X11 that can be installed from USB. I decided that instead I'd just put the live CD on USB and install that, then strip out the bloat. Not ideal but it'll have to do. So I'm stripping out stuff that I know isn't needing, and starting with yum groups that I know aren't necessary. First time I did this I went over zealous and nixed a bit to much, causing the box to not be able to boot into run level 3 anymore. This time I'm working a little more piece by piece. I was wondering if anyone had a CentOS server install or a spare box/vm they could put a fresh one on, so that I could get both the grouplist and package list off of it. It won't be exactly what I end up with but it would be a good frame of reference. If this doesn't work I may just have to try to do a network install (I don't have CD Drives on any of my PC's. I don't like the waste and most things are comfortable with a usb install.) Thanks, Will -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 21 19:20:57 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 20:20:57 +0100 Subject: CentOS Server Installation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, This is the %packages section from a RHEL6 kickstart that I've been using. It's a pretty bare setup: @base @console-internet @core @debugging @directory-client @hardware-monitoring @java-platform @large-systems @network-file-system-client @performance @perl-runtime @server-platform @server-policy -fprintd -fprintd-pam nc pax python-dmidecode oddjob sgpio certmonger pam_krb5 krb5-workstation nscd pam_ldap nss-pam-ldapd perl-DBD-SQLite git rpm-build rpmlint screen emacs ctags ruby authd telnet finger lsscsi nmap net-snmp xorg-x11-xauth HTH. Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 21 19:27:25 2012 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 15:27:25 -0400 Subject: CentOS Server Installation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50844C9D.2010709@alteeve.ca> On 10/21/2012 02:45 PM, William Weaver wrote: > Hey all, > > Just joined the group Friday, and looking forward to the first F2F meeting. > > I wanted to ask a question about a CentOS install I'm doing right now. I've > been having difficulty finding an install of CentOS 6.3 that will allow me > to install just the server applications without X11 that can be installed > from USB. I decided that instead I'd just put the live CD on USB and > install that, then strip out the bloat. Not ideal but it'll have to do. > > So I'm stripping out stuff that I know isn't needing, and starting with yum > groups that I know aren't necessary. First time I did this I went over > zealous and nixed a bit to much, causing the box to not be able to boot > into run level 3 anymore. This time I'm working a little more piece by > piece. > > > > I was wondering if anyone had a CentOS server install or a spare box/vm > they could put a fresh one on, so that I could get both the grouplist and > package list off of it. It won't be exactly what I end up with but it would > be a good frame of reference. > > If this doesn't work I may just have to try to do a network install (I > don't have CD Drives on any of my PC's. I don't like the waste and most > things are comfortable with a usb install.) > > Thanks, > > Will I do a "minimal" install. It is *super* minimal; no man pages, no tar, nada. Then I install the packages I want. All my production CentOS machines are built like this. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 21 19:46:42 2012 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 15:46:42 -0400 Subject: CentOS Server Installation In-Reply-To: <50844C9D.2010709-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <50844C9D.2010709@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: Ben - Thanks. Learning how to set up kickstarts is on my list of stuff to do. I'm just starting to learn more about deployment and administration of linux instead of just use and basic management. I just need to get this server (my KVM server) up first. Then I'll be able to build the VMs to study for the Red Hat Exams. Digimer - Yea even the minimal install I was having issues getting to boot, then when I did the network stuff was not there. I need something a bit more robust as this is going to be my hobby KVM machine and I only have so many hours in a day to mess with getting it set up. I'd rather spend more time cleaning up bloat after I have a working system, than not have the working system until I figure out what and only what I need. Will On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Digimer wrote: > On 10/21/2012 02:45 PM, William Weaver wrote: > > Hey all, > > > > Just joined the group Friday, and looking forward to the first F2F > meeting. > > > > I wanted to ask a question about a CentOS install I'm doing right now. > I've > > been having difficulty finding an install of CentOS 6.3 that will allow > me > > to install just the server applications without X11 that can be installed > > from USB. I decided that instead I'd just put the live CD on USB and > > install that, then strip out the bloat. Not ideal but it'll have to do. > > > > So I'm stripping out stuff that I know isn't needing, and starting with > yum > > groups that I know aren't necessary. First time I did this I went over > > zealous and nixed a bit to much, causing the box to not be able to boot > > into run level 3 anymore. This time I'm working a little more piece by > > piece. > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone had a CentOS server install or a spare box/vm > > they could put a fresh one on, so that I could get both the grouplist and > > package list off of it. It won't be exactly what I end up with but it > would > > be a good frame of reference. > > > > If this doesn't work I may just have to try to do a network install (I > > don't have CD Drives on any of my PC's. I don't like the waste and most > > things are comfortable with a usb install.) > > > > Thanks, > > > > Will > > I do a "minimal" install. It is *super* minimal; no man pages, no tar, > nada. Then I install the packages I want. All my production CentOS > machines are built like this. > > -- > Digimer > Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ > What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without > access to education? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 02:39:09 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 22:39:09 -0400 Subject: How stable is Debian Unstable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > I used to, back in the days when it was rather more exciting than today. > (Remember when Perl broke, and forced rolling upgrades back?). After the > Perl troubles, the project got more careful, and occurrences have been > pretty rare since. > > I'm mostly on testing, these days, with occasional unstable overrides. Hi Christopher ... Do you use apt-pinning to add unstable packages to an otherwise Debian testing installation? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 02:58:23 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 22:58:23 -0400 Subject: How stable is Debian Unstable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: >> I used to, back in the days when it was rather more exciting than today. >> (Remember when Perl broke, and forced rolling upgrades back?). After the >> Perl troubles, the project got more careful, and occurrences have been >> pretty rare since. >> >> I'm mostly on testing, these days, with occasional unstable overrides. > > Hi Christopher ... Do you use apt-pinning to add unstable packages to > an otherwise Debian testing installation? Indeed. I recently set this up so as to get a more bleeding-edge version of git-annex. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:44:18 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:44:18 -0400 Subject: How stable is Debian Unstable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121022154418.GJ18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 11:37:16PM -0400, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > Building a bit on the thread about Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora ... I > would be interested in any feedback from long-term Debian unstable/sid > users. > > I have played with the various Debian branches (stable, testing, > unstable) over the years. Stable for server setups + a few desktop > installs with simple needs and usually testing for myself. I am > currently running Debian unstable with no problems ... so far. A > couple things I do that (might) make a difference to make the Debian > unstable branch more stable: > > * installed apt-listbugs > * use apt-get from the console (logged out of X) vs aptitude or synaptic > * frequent upgrades (1-3 times a week) > * use a simple window manager (Fluxbox) ... maybe a more complex > desktop environment might cause problems??? > > So - out of curiosity - does anyone here use Debian Unstable as their > daily desktop environment? I use unstable on my work desktop, my home desktop and laptop and my mythtv box. I upgrade haphazardly (sometimes multiple times in a day, sometimes 2 or 3 weeks apart). The only times I ever had trouble is if I try to upgrade in the middle of a major transition (perl 5.12 to 5.14 for example) when not everything needed is in the archive yet. In those cases, I see the long list of tings to be removed and think "That looks wrong" and don't upgrade and wait a day or two and try again. I always use apt-get dist-upgrade. I know aptitude is supposed to be better, but its conflict resolution tends to drive me bonkers with its long questions. I consider synaptic useless. I use xfce these days as both gnome and kde are memory hogs (and gnome 3 seems plain useless on top of that). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:54:28 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:54:28 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 09:39:41AM +0100, Ben Walton wrote: > I've never understood why people find making RPM's difficult in the > least. I've always found it quite easy to whip up an RPM for anything > I've needed (which over time grew a large collection). I'd be > interested to hear why you found it difficult though... The .spec format to me is a mess. The debhelper stuff in debian makes things much simpler and less effort. > FWIW, I happily use both RHEL and Debian and find that they both have > their place. If you're an enterprise and can afford RHEL (instead of > CentOS), the RHN is definitely a good value add proposition when > looking after a lot of systems. Although I use Ubuntu on the desktop, > I cringe when I hear of its use on servers...they've rushed too many > half baked things into LTS releases that you're essentially stuck > with. I think Debian works on servers if you have the people to maintain it yourself. If you don't, then RHEL makes sense since the support is quite good. So to me if you have to people to run it, Debian makes a much better system to work with, but it is your problem to keep it running. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:55:11 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:55:11 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121022155511.GL18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:50:31AM -0400, John Moniz wrote: > How easy is it to get all of the pertinent multimedia codecs > installed on Fedora (I'd be interested in an answer for Debian > also)? The main reason I use Ubuntu and have installed it on several > family and friends' PCs is the ease with which I got multimedia > working. I've often given up on it after installing Fedora. The codecs can be had from debian-multimedia.org but not from Debian itself. They work fine. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 15:57:17 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:57:17 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> Message-ID: <20121022155717.GM18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 12:08:19PM -0400, Peter King wrote: > This baffles me. Why accept any half-bakedness for any time at all, in your > working environment? > > Debian stable is exactly that, rock-solid (if unexciting and not up-to-date), > and Debian Testing, which I ran for years, is more solid than these "timed > release" distros. Now I prefer Gentoo, which is not only a very solid stable > rolling-release, but which is transparent all the way through (not only the > package management system but the software itself is all open to inspection, > fiddling, and recompiling). If I want to risk more bleeding-edge software I > can always unmask packages, or use Gentoo unstable, or just write a shell > script (an ebuild) and compile them myself; when things break I know who > broke them, and often why they broke. > > But never mind *which* distro we're talking about. Why should anyone put up > with half-bakedness forced on them as a consequence of a release schedule? > That's what the Other OSes do -- OSX and Windows -- and there it's part of > the whole package, take it or leave it. Well, I left it, and I'm not going > to take it again. I certainly don't want half-bakedness under the name of a stable release. To me that is a contradiction. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 16:00:51 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 12:00:51 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121021020427.GA24500-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20121022160051.GN18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:04:28PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > Agree with a previous poster about missing Redhat 7.3. It was the > best Redhat ever. RH8 and RH9 were Windows-like bloat in comparison. To me RH 7.x were the worst ever. Both the libc and gcc were hack jobs trying to get features that were not ready for release yet. This made RH 7.x totally incompatible with any other linux distribution for C++ based code. Total disaster. I was so happy I had bailed after 6.0's bugs. > In an over-reaction to rapid version releases by Redhat, I went to, > Debian, a distro which allegedly had 3 flavours... "Rusty", "Stale", and > "Ancient". I actually loved it for a while. That was back in the day > when Mozilla's lightweight browser was called Phoenix, and Realplayer > was king of the multimedia hill. It was great for a while. Then some > security updates of Phoenix and Realplayer needed newer versions of > libraries than Debian had. So "Rusty"/"Stale"/"Ancient" came back to > bite me. > > Then I switched to CRUX linux http://crux.nu/ where I learned to > "make menuconfig" and build a custom kernel. I kept asking if they could > optimize it beyond basic i686. Somebody on the list told me that I was > really looking for Gentoo. That's where I went, and I'm still on it. I guess everyone needs to play with compiler flags for a while before they get over the idea that that is a useful thing to do. I got over that back in university on a solaris system. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 16:02:40 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 12:02:40 -0400 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: <5082F281.4070902-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> <5082E1F0.30509@rogers.com> <5082F281.4070902@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20121022160240.GO18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 02:50:41PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Yes it is. I've never had a CD or DVD drive that could play audio > without an audio connection of some sort. Audio tracks are not > "data" in the sense of computer files. They are just a continuous > stream of bits representing the music. CD burner programs can read > those tracks and copy them to a file that can be played. Modern drives no longer have an audio connection. Since win98 switched to digital extraction to play audio, the connector has been disappearing from drives. So the analog audio connector is gone. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 16:25:07 2012 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 12:25:07 -0400 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: <20121022160240.GO18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> <5082E1F0.30509@rogers.com> <5082F281.4070902@rogers.com> <20121022160240.GO18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 02:50:41PM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> Yes it is. I've never had a CD or DVD drive that could play audio >> without an audio connection of some sort. Audio tracks are not >> "data" in the sense of computer files. They are just a continuous >> stream of bits representing the music. CD burner programs can read >> those tracks and copy them to a file that can be played. > > Modern drives no longer have an audio connection. Since win98 switched > to digital extraction to play audio, the connector has been disappearing > from drives. > > So the analog audio connector is gone. FWIW, I haven't installed a CD-ROM drive in years; it never occurred to me that they'd be on SATA connections now (though in retrospect I guess it only makes sense) Despite having little use for CD-ROM drives anymore, I for one am happy to hear that the audio cable is gone. Wish I could be of more help... looks like it's back to hardware school for me! -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 18:54:08 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121022160051.GN18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> <20121022160051.GN18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:04:28PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: | > Agree with a previous poster about missing Redhat 7.3. It was the | > best Redhat ever. RH8 and RH9 were Windows-like bloat in comparison. | | To me RH 7.x were the worst ever. Both the libc and gcc were hack jobs | trying to get features that were not ready for release yet. This made | RH 7.x totally incompatible with any other linux distribution for C++ | based code. | | Total disaster. I was so happy I had bailed after 6.0's bugs. I don't remember it that way. I admit that my memory isn't 100% reliable. I think that this was the time where there were GCC project political problems. It was important to move GCC forward -- it was an important pillar of free software. FSF's GCC was stalled, so there was a fork. Eventually, the fork won. I think that Red Hat was pushing on this, ahead of the other distros. The only problem that I remember is that there were kernel bugs that only showed up with the new compilers so you needed to have the old compilers around if you wished to compile the kernel. The Linux kernel isn't really compiler-independant, and was less so then. I consider this an unfortunate flaw but Linus doesn't. I'm not a C++ guy (an understatement) but my impression is that g++ has been embarassingly non-conformant and as it improves, more code written for it breaks. Perhaps that is what you are talking about. Summary: users experienced problems, but these were on account of progress that Red Hat was pushing. I consider it a feather in their cap. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 19:16:58 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How stable is Debian Unstable? In-Reply-To: <20121022154418.GJ18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20121022154418.GJ18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | I use unstable on my work desktop, my home desktop and laptop and my | mythtv box. Sounds encouraging. | I upgrade haphazardly (sometimes multiple times in a day, sometimes 2 | or 3 weeks apart). Sounds encouraging. | The only times I ever had trouble is if I try to upgrade in the middle of | a major transition (perl 5.12 to 5.14 for example) when not everything | needed is in the archive yet. In those cases, I see the long list of | tings to be removed and think "That looks wrong" and don't upgrade and | wait a day or two and try again. Sounds scary. Do you have to infer that you are in a time of high sunspot activity, or do you get some kind of notice that an inattentive ordinary user might pick up on? It sounds as if you are aware enough that you can avoid or work through problems. It would be nice if users were shielded from this kind of trouble. I don't generally remember such problems with either Fedora or Ubuntu (distro's possibly comparable to debian unstable) | I always use apt-get dist-upgrade. I know aptitude is supposed to be | better, but its conflict resolution tends to drive me bonkers with its | long questions. I consider synaptic useless. Interesting. On Ubuntu, I use "update-manager" (a GUI thing) for updates; once in a while, I'll use "apt-get update & upgrade" (mostly when I ssh in). For adding packages, I've tried but not liked the "Ubuntu Software Center". I usually use Synaptic because it lets me explore a bit (but it is clunky). I use "apt-get install" if I know exactly what I want. I don't understand what aptitude is about and haven't been motivated to find out. The fact that there is a difference in dependency handling between apt-get and aptitude is a bit scary. Note: I don't invest a lot into Ubuntu, I let the distro drive me where it wants. Impression: Ubuntu has a lot of users and they trip over a high percentage of problems that I hit, so often google finds a solution for me. But if the problem is deep, Red Hat's ecosystem feels better at solving it. Guess: Debian might well be better still (but fixes might not flow to stable at an observable rate). | I use xfce these days as both gnome and kde are memory hogs (and gnome | 3 seems plain useless on top of that). I use Gnome 3 because I'm not interested in investing in that fight. But I'm certainly not in love with Gnome 3 or Unity. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 19:20:49 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:20:49 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> <20121022160051.GN18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121022192049.GP18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 02:54:08PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I don't remember it that way. I admit that my memory isn't 100% > reliable. > > I think that this was the time where there were GCC project political > problems. It was important to move GCC forward -- it was an important > pillar of free software. FSF's GCC was stalled, so there was a fork. > Eventually, the fork won. I think that Red Hat was pushing on this, > ahead of the other distros. http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-2.96.html That was one of the problem with redhat 7.x They were too impatient to wait for 3.0 to be done. It was far from stalled at the time. But the decision makers at redhat just had to have the new gcc 3.0 features that weren't quite ready yet. Never mind what the gcc developers think. > The only problem that I remember is that there were kernel bugs that > only showed up with the new compilers so you needed to have the old > compilers around if you wished to compile the kernel. > > The Linux kernel isn't really compiler-independant, and was less so > then. I consider this an unfortunate flaw but Linus doesn't. > > I'm not a C++ guy (an understatement) but my impression is that g++ > has been embarassingly non-conformant and as it improves, more code > written for it breaks. Perhaps that is what you are talking about. > > Summary: users experienced problems, but these were on account of > progress that Red Hat was pushing. I consider it a feather in their > cap. If the gcc developers say "Don't do that", then that is NOT pushing development. It is rather hindering it. You are wasting their time with issues they don't want to deal with. gcc 3.0 was getting close to done. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 19:27:58 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:27:58 -0400 Subject: How stable is Debian Unstable? In-Reply-To: References: <20121022154418.GJ18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121022192758.GQ18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 03:16:58PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Sounds scary. Do you have to infer that you are in a time of high > sunspot activity, or do you get some kind of notice that an > inattentive ordinary user might pick up on? Well when you see apt-get say it will remove 200 packages, usually that is a good time to hit the 'n' button when it asks if you want to continue. I believe debian-planet.org has status notices on major transitions. Major transitions being things like: New major version of perl, new major version of xorg, new major version of gnome, new major version of kde, new major version of python. They are not very common though. > It sounds as if you are aware enough that you can avoid or work > through problems. It would be nice if users were shielded from this > kind of trouble. I don't generally remember such problems with either > Fedora or Ubuntu (distro's possibly comparable to debian unstable) Well there is the side project of debian CUT. That is a version of testing that is manually protected from transition breakage. Now quite as up to date as unstable but pretty good. I haven't used it. CUT stands for "Continusly Usable Testing". Check cut.debian.net for any status of the side project. I believe Mint Linux Debian Edition is essentially Debian CUT. Certainly very stable and much more up to date than debian stable. Very polished actually. > Interesting. > > On Ubuntu, I use "update-manager" (a GUI thing) for > updates; once in a while, I'll use "apt-get update & upgrade" (mostly > when I ssh in). > > For adding packages, I've tried but not liked the "Ubuntu Software > Center". I usually use Synaptic because it lets me explore a bit (but > it is clunky). I use "apt-get install" if I know exactly what I want. > > I don't understand what aptitude is about and haven't been motivated > to find out. The fact that there is a difference in dependency > handling between apt-get and aptitude is a bit scary. aptitude is curses based and lets you search and such. It also lets you resolve conflicts interactively, although not necesarily user friendly manner. You can replace apt-get with aptitude as a command line tool, although rather than tell you about conflicts aptitude will offer possible resolutions. aptitude update, aptitude upgrade, etc, all work. > Note: I don't invest a lot into Ubuntu, I let the distro drive me > where it wants. > > Impression: Ubuntu has a lot of users and they trip over a high > percentage of problems that I hit, so often google finds a solution > for me. But if the problem is deep, Red Hat's ecosystem feels better > at solving it. Guess: Debian might well be better still (but fixes > might not flow to stable at an observable rate). Well stable rarely needs fixes because it is tested to death before being released. Security fixes go in quite quickly. > I use Gnome 3 because I'm not interested in investing in that fight. > But I'm certainly not in love with Gnome 3 or Unity. gnome 3 disagreed with my very fundamental requirements of a window manager. That makes it not even an option to use. I don't expect much, and gnome failed to meet even those needs. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 19:32:42 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121022155717.GM18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121022155717.GM18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 12:08:19PM -0400, Peter King wrote: | > This baffles me. Why accept any half-bakedness for any time at all, in your | > working environment? | | I certainly don't want half-bakedness under the name of a stable release. | To me that is a contradiction. [In defense of Ubuntu, they kind of gave a hint that the 12.04 wasn't stable. They recommended waiting for 12.04.1. Still, I think that is kind of funny.] I like the idea of a rolling release. I'm not sure why that isn't the norm. Perhaps because certain changes have cascading effects, ones that almost require a "flag day". - "a major transition (perl 5.12 to 5.14 for example)" - switching to NetworkManager "without a net" (pun intended). - switching to systemd Could all those be reasonably captured in accurate dependencies? I'd hope so. But capturing dependencies outside the distro (eg. in users own code or practice) isn't as easy. Perhaps because users are not ready for continuous change if it has observable effects. Maybe they like punctuated equilibrium At one point, releases were meant to let the vendor resell the product to you at intervals. Debian's releases are so infrequent that they drive a significant number of users to unstable. If unstable were billed as a rolling release, and everyone drew the right inferences, it would be pretty neat: the best of both worlds. It's a mystery to me. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 19:38:13 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:38:13 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121022155717.GM18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121022193813.GR18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 03:32:42PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > [In defense of Ubuntu, they kind of gave a hint that the 12.04 wasn't > stable. They recommended waiting for 12.04.1. Still, I think that is > kind of funny.] > > I like the idea of a rolling release. I'm not sure why that isn't the > norm. > > Perhaps because certain changes have cascading effects, ones that > almost require a "flag day". > > - "a major transition (perl 5.12 to 5.14 for example)" > > - switching to NetworkManager "without a net" (pun intended). > > - switching to systemd > > Could all those be reasonably captured in accurate dependencies? I'd hope > so. But capturing dependencies outside the distro (eg. in users own code > or practice) isn't as easy. > > Perhaps because users are not ready for continuous change if it has > observable effects. Maybe they like punctuated equilibrium > > > At one point, releases were meant to let the vendor resell the product to > you at intervals. > > Debian's releases are so infrequent that they drive a significant number > of users to unstable. If unstable were billed as a rolling release, and > everyone drew the right inferences, it would be pretty neat: the best of > both worlds. And some people will run stable with select pieces from stable-backports. That's the sensible way to run a server that matters. > It's a mystery to me. To some extent the debian name 'unstable' scares people. It isn't named 'unstable' because it is 'unstable'. It has the name because it is always changing. It is the opposite of debian 'stable' which never changes (and also happens to be very stable as far as reliability, but that's because it is well tested). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 19:41:13 2012 From: stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stephen Gordon) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:41:13 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121022192049.GP18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> <20121022160051.GN18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022192049.GP18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 02:54:08PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> I don't remember it that way. I admit that my memory isn't 100% >> reliable. >> >> I think that this was the time where there were GCC project political >> problems. It was important to move GCC forward -- it was an important >> pillar of free software. FSF's GCC was stalled, so there was a fork. >> Eventually, the fork won. I think that Red Hat was pushing on this, >> ahead of the other distros. > > http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-2.96.html > > That was one of the problem with redhat 7.x > > They were too impatient to wait for 3.0 to be done. It was far from > stalled at the time. > > But the decision makers at redhat just had to have the new gcc 3.0 > features that weren't quite ready yet. Never mind what the gcc developers > think. Of course there are two sides to every story: http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_gcc.html >> The only problem that I remember is that there were kernel bugs that >> only showed up with the new compilers so you needed to have the old >> compilers around if you wished to compile the kernel. >> >> The Linux kernel isn't really compiler-independant, and was less so >> then. I consider this an unfortunate flaw but Linus doesn't. >> >> I'm not a C++ guy (an understatement) but my impression is that g++ >> has been embarassingly non-conformant and as it improves, more code >> written for it breaks. Perhaps that is what you are talking about. >> >> Summary: users experienced problems, but these were on account of >> progress that Red Hat was pushing. I consider it a feather in their >> cap. > > If the gcc developers say "Don't do that", then that is NOT pushing > development. It is rather hindering it. You are wasting their time > with issues they don't want to deal with. gcc 3.0 was getting close > to done. Some gcc developers agreed with that line of thinking, some didn't. Acting as if GCC community universally agreed it was a Bad Thing TM is revisionist. http://lwn.net/2000/1005/a/rh-tools.php3 Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 19:48:23 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:48:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121022192049.GP18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> <20121022160051.GN18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022192049.GP18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-2.96.html | | That was one of the problem with redhat 7.x Thanks for the pointer. I was conflating two different things 2.96 and EGCC (which mostly became 2.95, I think). But I don't think that they were unrelated events. | They were too impatient to wait for 3.0 to be done. It was far from | stalled at the time. | | But the decision makers at redhat just had to have the new gcc 3.0 | features that weren't quite ready yet. Never mind what the gcc developers | think. So object code from g++ 2.96 could not be used on a system with a different compiler. Big deal. Red Hat did support 2.96. Since they supplied a lot of the manpower for GCC, glibc, etc., this hardly seems to be a stretch. | If the gcc developers say "Don't do that", then that is NOT pushing | development. It is rather hindering it. You are wasting their time | with issues they don't want to deal with. gcc 3.0 was getting close | to done. That doesn't seem to be the case. Non-RH GCC developers' time wasn't wasted if they paid no attention to 2.96 users' bug reports (as I infer from the page you posted). I admit that this is old news. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 20:52:36 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:52:36 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> <20121022160051.GN18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022192049.GP18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121022205236.GS18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 03:41:13PM -0400, Stephen Gordon wrote: > Of course there are two sides to every story: > > http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_gcc.html I have read that too. Redhat was wrong. > Some gcc developers agreed with that line of thinking, some didn't. > Acting as if GCC community universally agreed it was a Bad Thing TM is > revisionist. > > http://lwn.net/2000/1005/a/rh-tools.php3 Well the compatibility hell the gcc developers warned of DID happen. I remember dealing with it. It was very annoying. You kept having to tell people to stop using redhat 7.x for development because no one else could run their binaries. I really don't give a shit if redhat just had to support the useless itanium. Not as if they do anymore. Perhaps they could have delayed their release until gcc was stable with itanium support, but oh wait, redhat is one of those companies that started the fixed release schedule crap, so I guess they couldn't. Sales/marketing couldn't wait for something that worked because they had a schedule to follow. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 20:56:26 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:56:26 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> <20121022160051.GN18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022192049.GP18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121022205626.GT18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 03:48:23PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Thanks for the pointer. I was conflating two different things 2.96 > and EGCC (which mostly became 2.95, I think). But I don't think that > they were unrelated events. egcc took over after gcc 2.7.2.3 stalled forever. I believe the first egcc was released as 2.8, but I might remember that wrong. > So object code from g++ 2.96 could not be used on a system with a > different compiler. Big deal. And libstdc++ was incompatible too, so you couldn't run the binaries anywhere else because no one else had a compatible C++ runtime. That part was a big deal. > Red Hat did support 2.96. Since they supplied a lot of the manpower for > GCC, glibc, etc., this hardly seems to be a stretch. Sure, but no one else (distribution wise) did. > That doesn't seem to be the case. Non-RH GCC developers' time wasn't > wasted if they paid no attention to 2.96 users' bug reports (as I infer > from the page you posted). They would have to filter them out first. > I admit that this is old news. That it is. But to me it means redhat will always make decisions in the interest of their needs, not their users needs. I like the support they have for a lot of important projects, but they have certainly showed some bad judgement when it comes to releasing their distribution over the years. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 21:23:03 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dave's messages [was: Re: Avoiding flag days (was: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator)] In-Reply-To: <5085B03C.5000008-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121022155717.GM18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5085B03C.5000008@rogers.com> Message-ID: I got this message from David directly. I did not get it through the tlug mail server, and I should have. In fact, I have not received a single message from davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org or davec-b-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org through the tlug list. But I have seen messages that were replies to his posts (September 11, September 24, October 12). I also don't see them in the list archive I've looked in my SPAM traps and find no evidence of at least the recent message. Clearly SOME people are seeing Dave's posts. What's up? | Return-Path: | X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on redclaw.mimosa.com | X-Spam-Level: | X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,T_DKIM_INVALID | autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 | Received: from gw-d.mimosa.com (redgate.mimosa.com [192.139.70.81]) | by redclaw.mimosa.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q9MKfda3003955 | for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:41:39 -0400 | Received: from nm25-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com | (nm25-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.213.156]) | by gw-d.mimosa.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id q9MKfdZ9009894 | for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:41:39 -0400 | Received: from [98.139.215.143] by nm25.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; | 22 Oct 2012 20:41:38 -0000 | Received: from [98.139.221.70] by tm14.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; | 22 Oct 2012 20:41:38 -0000 | Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp107.rog.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 | Oct 2012 20:41:38 -0000 | DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; | t=1350938498; bh=M7iZ1UvSCbJ4KsvgnYoHD3mYw4c1BwpM6qiUBxI7Y2k=; | h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Recei | ved:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:Re | ferences:In-Reply-To:X-Enigmail-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Enco | ding; | b=VcTaCQuvfMmEeb1Ej248sIWqO6PHRJ+FslYLUUWWDlpERMFCc+iheBTZxaE1J8XGQiyUUqeF | xLIeAaAWXOtOMoL+6uuICg8JDdIsLoa0sTYwMddobosQB/sIdgs47m/BSdWd/xrrXBQIg3Xetq | 4KO2/9hxCCdUNCo8QxRFRWQeM= | X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 258560.53403.bm-qCNq7z0e6cHzJNTqFNLFoULUdxTIq2jXG6kzb5Gsg2M at public.gmane.org | X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 | X-YMail-OSG: _Lxif04VM1nUebhcnKjZviobs._ruFPC2I7_0LQWyDGGewn | ciMrJSkmOZ0pAn0ke1T.FD3mrEOceJY_dQO1nlf3xNs3aOtNBqq1g5KfNHCl | XH4TZduEK8sna5m9L2_4VMJ9dFkG3eQzS9NC0Z4r5fkJ3E5UpnsZSwey6PTF | pgbnFOatPWLqu39vtGyIjEHrdK4Ane4GKTLH2KZmnRFh2WL.gLwKoZmjxUzF | N9c.XquJoulKrA4uv5h_5jX1ZBTz7RArJZQ6WTz0joLObxsy6rnliiYsOPAt | uPywYmn7X0beYzU90hcOFokrlugrhFV.1m_ZXX66OPb5zFsFZHUFi0PxkthF | jeQfUmsJF7wJBp823uEoCgdWlO6NhW5CRYhYPozfUa_hxWgyYS19octiGvmu | sN.uVCe1Fr.V2DI7ZSlHHkeqM6v6_o5dPTJP0IlK8leCunu4h75oqouEyHx7 | tCe0nJ1WnNDt4y_u3JufLKAkztBH1kQM48NUFeKp_pgdtzBLmqmqv6fBQ3pE | weZG.GJQI8ZrLFOa3VCRx2M6vvzs77Ia5N1gYq66VfHzxY2.dSMpKavqNYdD | HpEFuU9iLW3ZjI1JfI6_Tenh.sO3gc1gqfGPP2zlJLLHHDDS_ggOe2BtIEg4 | 4Ql32qid52eQ- | X-Yahoo-SMTP: sltvjZWswBCRD.ElTuB1l9j6s9wRYPpuyTNWOE5oEg-- | Received: from [192.168.11.48] (davec-b-LMYGs5aOBMIF+fTsMqTCbw at public.gmane.org with plain) | by smtp107.rog.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 2012 13:41:38 | -0700 PDT | Message-ID: <5085B03C.5000008-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> | Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:44:44 -0400 | From: David Collier-Brown | Reply-To: davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org | User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120430 | Thunderbird/12.0.1 | MIME-Version: 1.0 | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | CC: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" | Subject: Avoiding flag days (was: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora | migrator) | References: <50809775.5050909-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org> | <20121019145128.GH18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> | | <5082C6DF.70208-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> <20121020160819.GA19052 at amber> | <20121022155717.GM18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> | | In-Reply-To: | X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit | | On 10/22/2012 03:32 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | | > I like the idea of a rolling release. I'm not sure why that isn't the | > norm. | > | > Perhaps because certain changes have cascading effects, ones that | > almost require a "flag day". | > | > - "a major transition (perl 5.12 to 5.14 for example)" | > | > - switching to NetworkManager "without a net" (pun intended). | > | > - switching to systemd | > | > Could all those be reasonably captured in accurate dependencies? I'd hope | > so. But capturing dependencies outside the distro (eg. in users own code | > or practice) isn't as easy. | > | > Perhaps because users are not ready for continuous change if it has | > observable effects. Maybe they like punctuated equilibrium | > | | | It isn't *quite* a flag day, but it it a genuinely difficult set of | dependencies, with the risk of circularity. | | Multics did a continuous rolling release, described in the Paul Stachour | paper on versioning, and their and the ARPAnet's versioning did allow | one to break out of circular dependencies. | | But that's getting exceedingly off-topic (:-)) | | --dave | | -- | David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify | System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest | davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org | -- Mark Twain | (416) 223-8968 | -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 21:25:30 2012 From: stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stephen Gordon) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:25:30 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121022205236.GS18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> <20121022160051.GN18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022192049.GP18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022205236.GS18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 03:41:13PM -0400, Stephen Gordon wrote: >> Of course there are two sides to every story: >> >> http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_gcc.html > > I have read that too. Redhat was wrong. I am simply pointing it out for anyone who might be less familiar with the situation allowing them to form their own opinions (as informative as sweeping statements about people being "wrong" on the Internet are). Personally I don't remember RHL 7.x with all that much fondness either but not due to anything related to this particular issue. Steve -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 22:04:58 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:04:58 -0400 Subject: Dave's messages [was: Re: Avoiding flag days (was: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator)] In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121022155717.GM18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5085B03C.5000008@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 22 October 2012 17:23, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I got this message from David directly. I did not get it through the tlug > mail server, and I should have. > > In fact, I have not received a single message from davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org or > davec-b-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org through the tlug list. But I have seen messages that > were replies to his posts (September 11, September 24, October 12). > > I also don't see them in the list archive > > > I've looked in my SPAM traps and find no evidence of at least the recent > message. > > Clearly SOME people are seeing Dave's posts. What's up? > > | Return-Path: > | X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on redclaw.mimosa.com > | X-Spam-Level: > | X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,T_DKIM_INVALID > | autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 > | Received: from gw-d.mimosa.com (redgate.mimosa.com [192.139.70.81]) > | by redclaw.mimosa.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q9MKfda3003955 > | for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:41:39 -0400 > | Received: from nm25-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com > | (nm25-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.213.156]) > | by gw-d.mimosa.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id q9MKfdZ9009894 > | for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:41:39 -0400 > | Received: from [98.139.215.143] by nm25.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; > | 22 Oct 2012 20:41:38 -0000 > | Received: from [98.139.221.70] by tm14.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; > | 22 Oct 2012 20:41:38 -0000 > | Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp107.rog.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 > | Oct 2012 20:41:38 -0000 > | DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; > | t=1350938498; bh=M7iZ1UvSCbJ4KsvgnYoHD3mYw4c1BwpM6qiUBxI7Y2k=; > | h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Recei > | ved:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:Re > | ferences:In-Reply-To:X-Enigmail-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Enco > | ding; > | b=VcTaCQuvfMmEeb1Ej248sIWqO6PHRJ+FslYLUUWWDlpERMFCc+iheBTZxaE1J8XGQiyUUqeF > | xLIeAaAWXOtOMoL+6uuICg8JDdIsLoa0sTYwMddobosQB/sIdgs47m/BSdWd/xrrXBQIg3Xetq > | 4KO2/9hxCCdUNCo8QxRFRWQeM= > | X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 258560.53403.bm-qCNq7z0e6cHzJNTqFNLFoULUdxTIq2jXG6kzb5Gsg2M at public.gmane.org > | X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 > | X-YMail-OSG: _Lxif04VM1nUebhcnKjZviobs._ruFPC2I7_0LQWyDGGewn > | ciMrJSkmOZ0pAn0ke1T.FD3mrEOceJY_dQO1nlf3xNs3aOtNBqq1g5KfNHCl > | XH4TZduEK8sna5m9L2_4VMJ9dFkG3eQzS9NC0Z4r5fkJ3E5UpnsZSwey6PTF > | pgbnFOatPWLqu39vtGyIjEHrdK4Ane4GKTLH2KZmnRFh2WL.gLwKoZmjxUzF > | N9c.XquJoulKrA4uv5h_5jX1ZBTz7RArJZQ6WTz0joLObxsy6rnliiYsOPAt > | uPywYmn7X0beYzU90hcOFokrlugrhFV.1m_ZXX66OPb5zFsFZHUFi0PxkthF > | jeQfUmsJF7wJBp823uEoCgdWlO6NhW5CRYhYPozfUa_hxWgyYS19octiGvmu > | sN.uVCe1Fr.V2DI7ZSlHHkeqM6v6_o5dPTJP0IlK8leCunu4h75oqouEyHx7 > | tCe0nJ1WnNDt4y_u3JufLKAkztBH1kQM48NUFeKp_pgdtzBLmqmqv6fBQ3pE > | weZG.GJQI8ZrLFOa3VCRx2M6vvzs77Ia5N1gYq66VfHzxY2.dSMpKavqNYdD > | HpEFuU9iLW3ZjI1JfI6_Tenh.sO3gc1gqfGPP2zlJLLHHDDS_ggOe2BtIEg4 > | 4Ql32qid52eQ- > | X-Yahoo-SMTP: sltvjZWswBCRD.ElTuB1l9j6s9wRYPpuyTNWOE5oEg-- > | Received: from [192.168.11.48] (davec-b-LMYGs5aOBMIF+fTsMqTCbw at public.gmane.org with plain) > | by smtp107.rog.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 2012 13:41:38 > | -0700 PDT > | Message-ID: <5085B03C.5000008-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> > | Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:44:44 -0400 > | From: David Collier-Brown > | Reply-To: davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org > | User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120430 > | Thunderbird/12.0.1 > | MIME-Version: 1.0 > | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > | CC: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" > | Subject: Avoiding flag days (was: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora > | migrator) > | References: <50809775.5050909-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org> > | <20121019145128.GH18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> > | > | <5082C6DF.70208-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> <20121020160819.GA19052 at amber> > | <20121022155717.GM18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> > | > | In-Reply-To: > | X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 > | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > | > | On 10/22/2012 03:32 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | > | > I like the idea of a rolling release. I'm not sure why that isn't the > | > norm. > | > > | > Perhaps because certain changes have cascading effects, ones that > | > almost require a "flag day". > | > > | > - "a major transition (perl 5.12 to 5.14 for example)" > | > > | > - switching to NetworkManager "without a net" (pun intended). > | > > | > - switching to systemd > | > > | > Could all those be reasonably captured in accurate dependencies? I'd hope > | > so. But capturing dependencies outside the distro (eg. in users own code > | > or practice) isn't as easy. > | > > | > Perhaps because users are not ready for continuous change if it has > | > observable effects. Maybe they like punctuated equilibrium > | > > | > | > | It isn't *quite* a flag day, but it it a genuinely difficult set of > | dependencies, with the risk of circularity. > | > | Multics did a continuous rolling release, described in the Paul Stachour > | paper on versioning, and their and the ARPAnet's versioning did allow > | one to break out of circular dependencies. > | > | But that's getting exceedingly off-topic (:-)) > | > | --dave > | > | -- > | David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > | System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > | davecb-0XdUWXLQalXR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org | -- Mark Twain > | (416) 223-8968 > | > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists I didn't even know Dave was on this list. I didn't receive the original of this message, and the last message I saw from him directly was from a lexis-nexis account in 2010. But a search of tlug mails finds several references to "David Collier-Brown wrote ..." but no originals to accompany those. If gmail is filtering him as spam for some bizarre reason, it's deeply embedded - they don't show up in the spam/trash. So yeah, there appears to be something wrong. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 23:40:57 2012 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:40:57 -0400 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: <20121022160240.GO18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> <5082E1F0.30509@rogers.com> <5082F281.4070902@rogers.com> <20121022160240.GO18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 22 October 2012 12:02, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Modern drives no longer have an audio connection. > [...] > So the analog audio connector is gone. And the front headphone jack and volume control along with it. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 22 23:43:21 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:43:21 -0400 Subject: CD-Rom not mounting In-Reply-To: <5082F281.4070902-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5082D5E3.60209@rogers.com> <5082DA4A.9040304@rogers.com> <5082E1F0.30509@rogers.com> <5082F281.4070902@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20121022234321.GA8148@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 02:50:41PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Stephen wrote: > >No. But I believe that one is not necessary. It is a sata > >connection, and if the program could see the disc it would read it > >as data. > > Yes it is. I've never had a CD or DVD drive that could play audio > without an audio connection of some sort. Audio tracks are not > "data" in the sense of computer files. They are just a continuous > stream of bits representing the music. CD burner programs can read > those tracks and copy them to a file that can be played. Nowdays, you don't need audio cable to play music CD. At least in Slackware, there is a program "workbone" which uses keypad as buttons for "play", "stop", "forward", "reverse", etc. Of course, you need the audio cable if you are playing directly from the CD drive. But, this is old days, when CD drives were just another spin of CD walkman. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 00:42:59 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:42:59 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121022160051.GN18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121021020427.GA24500@waltdnes.org> <20121022160051.GN18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121023004259.GA29146@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 12:00:51PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:04:28PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > > Agree with a previous poster about missing Redhat 7.3. It was the > > best Redhat ever. RH8 and RH9 were Windows-like bloat in comparison. > > To me RH 7.x were the worst ever. Both the libc and gcc were hack jobs > trying to get features that were not ready for release yet. This made > RH 7.x totally incompatible with any other linux distribution for C++ > based code. > > Total disaster. I was so happy I had bailed after 6.0's bugs. 7.0 was a stereotypical "point zero release", with bugs galore. 7.1 fixed most of the problems. 7.2 made even more bug-fixes, and 7.3 was very good. > I guess everyone needs to play with compiler flags for a while before > they get over the idea that that is a useful thing to do. I got over > that back in university on a solaris system. In my case, yes it is useful. The machine is a Dell Inspiron 530, manufacture date 2008/06/19. I subscribe to NHL Gamecentre Live (when they're not locked out ). Right after a fresh install off the generic i686 download, the system simply could not keep up with even the slowest stream. After I ran "emerge system" and "emerge world", it was easily able to keep up with that stream, even in fullscreen mode. So in my case, it is useful, even it it makes me a "Gentoo ricer". BTW, my settings are... CFLAGS="-O2 -march=native -mfpmath=sse -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe -fno-unwind-tables -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables" CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}" MAKEOPTS="-j1" -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 01:26:23 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dave's messages [was: Re: Avoiding flag days (was: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator)] In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5082C6DF.70208@sobac.com> <20121020160819.GA19052@amber> <20121022155717.GM18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5085B03C.5000008@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: Giles Orr | I didn't even know Dave was on this list. I didn't receive the | original of this message, and the last message I saw from him directly | was from a lexis-nexis account in 2010. But a search of tlug mails | finds several references to "David Collier-Brown wrote ..." but no | originals to accompany those. That matches my observations. | If gmail is filtering him as spam for | some bizarre reason, it's deeply embedded - they don't show up in the | spam/trash. It's not gmail. I run my own mail server. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 06:34:09 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 07:34:09 +0100 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121022155428.GK18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 09:39:41AM +0100, Ben Walton wrote: >> I've never understood why people find making RPM's difficult in the >> least. I've always found it quite easy to whip up an RPM for anything >> I've needed (which over time grew a large collection). I'd be >> interested to hear why you found it difficult though... > > The .spec format to me is a mess. The debhelper stuff in debian makes > things much simpler and less effort. Ok. I guess it's subjective which is fair. From my perspective, the .spec format is fine. It's macro based so a basic package can be incredibly short and sweet. I also like that it's a single file instead of multiple for Debian. Overall, I find them both reasonable formats though. > I think Debian works on servers if you have the people to maintain > it yourself. If you don't, then RHEL makes sense since the support is > quite good. So to me if you have to people to run it, Debian makes a much > better system to work with, but it is your problem to keep it running. That matches my experience as well and also demonstrates nicely why the redhat model works. They're a value add making money selling a "free" product. Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 15:42:12 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:42:12 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 07:34:09AM +0100, Ben Walton wrote: > That matches my experience as well and also demonstrates nicely why > the redhat model works. They're a value add making money selling a > "free" product. Unfortunately a lot of companies think RHEL is the only linux distribution and hence won't even talk to you if you try to run their software on anything else. Not really redhat's fault, other than for being successful at doing what they do. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 16:08:49 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:08:49 +0100 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121023154212.GU18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 07:34:09AM +0100, Ben Walton wrote: >> That matches my experience as well and also demonstrates nicely why >> the redhat model works. They're a value add making money selling a >> "free" product. > > Unfortunately a lot of companies think RHEL is the only linux distribution > and hence won't even talk to you if you try to run their software on > anything else. Yes, this is a shame, I agree. The world (I was going to say "computing world" but I think it extends beyond that) owes Debian a huge debt and it's not always or even often recognized. It is quite frustrating to get .tar.gz or .rpm downloads but rarely a .deb. I(t's also frustrating when the .rpm is for some ancient RHEL version too. :( ) > Not really redhat's fault, other than for being successful at doing what > they do. This is the point that is often left out so I'm glad you made it. Red Hat has been successful while also being, as far as I can tell, a good corporate and FLOSS citizen. The sad part is that their success masks the great work done by other groups. Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 16:30:00 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:30:00 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: > >> That matches my experience as well and also demonstrates nicely why > >> the redhat model works. They're a value add making money selling a > >> "free" product. > > > > Unfortunately a lot of companies think RHEL is the only linux distribution > > and hence won't even talk to you if you try to run their software on > > anything else. > > Yes, this is a shame, I agree. The world (I was going to say > "computing world" but I think it extends beyond that) owes Debian a > huge debt and it's not always or even often recognized. It is quite > frustrating to get .tar.gz or .rpm downloads but rarely a .deb. I(t's > also frustrating when the .rpm is for some ancient RHEL version too. > :( ) > May be we should blame the network effect but sometimes its even more weird. Case in point, Cisco SSL vpn client is Java based yet they made it RedHat specific. I thought Java is platform independent. Other cases that have left me flabbergasted, Vertica, Oracle or even Dell will not support their application on Scientific Linux despite them being the same binaries as RHEL. You can just guess how long they will take to support Debian if the later case is a problem William > > Not really redhat's fault, other than for being successful at doing what > > they do. > > This is the point that is often left out so I'm glad you made it. Red > Hat has been successful while also being, as far as I can tell, a good > corporate and FLOSS citizen. The sad part is that their success masks > the great work done by other groups. > > Thanks > -Ben > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, > truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. > > -Christopher Hitchens > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 16:30:16 2012 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:30:16 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121023154212.GU18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5086C618.3030106@alteeve.ca> On 10/23/2012 11:42 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 07:34:09AM +0100, Ben Walton wrote: >> That matches my experience as well and also demonstrates nicely why >> the redhat model works. They're a value add making money selling a >> "free" product. > > Unfortunately a lot of companies think RHEL is the only linux distribution > and hence won't even talk to you if you try to run their software on > anything else. > > Not really redhat's fault, other than for being successful at doing what > they do. It's not that companies feel that RHEL is the only Linux distro. It's that Red Hat the support company is the best at providing support to large businesses. Companies pay Red Hat for access to timely updates and for their support infrastructure. Those who don't need or don't want to pay for that can use CentOS and get 100% the same software without paying any money. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 16:35:10 2012 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:35:10 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5086C73E.2010605@alteeve.ca> On 10/23/2012 12:30 PM, William Muriithi wrote: >>>> That matches my experience as well and also demonstrates nicely why >>>> the redhat model works. They're a value add making money selling a >>>> "free" product. >>> >>> Unfortunately a lot of companies think RHEL is the only linux > distribution >>> and hence won't even talk to you if you try to run their software on >>> anything else. >> >> Yes, this is a shame, I agree. The world (I was going to say >> "computing world" but I think it extends beyond that) owes Debian a >> huge debt and it's not always or even often recognized. It is quite >> frustrating to get .tar.gz or .rpm downloads but rarely a .deb. I(t's >> also frustrating when the .rpm is for some ancient RHEL version too. >> :( ) >> > May be we should blame the network effect but sometimes its even more weird. > > Case in point, Cisco SSL vpn client is Java based yet they made it RedHat > specific. I thought Java is platform independent. > > Other cases that have left me flabbergasted, Vertica, Oracle or even Dell > will not support their application on Scientific Linux despite them being > the same binaries as RHEL. This is incorrect. SL does not strive for binary compatibility with RHEL. So far as I know, only CentOS strives for this. It's a major reason why SL was able to push out v6.0 months before CentOS was able to. The CentOS folks needed to effectively reverse-engineer the Red Hat build environment. I am not one to defend either Oracle, Dell or Cisco (quite the contrary), but in this case I can understand their reasoning. You don't know what corner-case bugs might slip in with RHEL derivatives that are not 100% binary compatible. So to support distros like SL, they would have to spend a fair bit of time and money to test against them (and repeat for every update). Why bother when there is a compatible, free alternative in CentOS? As for Debian support, I suspect it's more a question of market share. If you're selling a product aimed at enterprise, and if the bulk of your potential client base runs OS A, why spend a lot of money to support the smaller OS B option? These are fairly simple business decisions and do not reflect on the quality of OS B. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 16:41:21 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:41:21 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <5086C73E.2010605-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5086C73E.2010605@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: > > Other cases that have left me flabbergasted, Vertica, Oracle or even Dell > > will not support their application on Scientific Linux despite them being > > the same binaries as RHEL. > > This is incorrect. SL does not strive for binary compatibility with > RHEL. So far as I know, only CentOS strives for this. It's a major > reason why SL was able to push out v6.0 months before CentOS was able > to. The CentOS folks needed to effectively reverse-engineer the Red Hat > build environment. > Don't matter, I tried to raise a case with Dell over open manage and they refused to work with me after saying I was on centos. Called back and lied it was redhat and they worked with me. I was honestly using sl here to cover all the redhat clones. William > I am not one to defend either Oracle, Dell or Cisco (quite the > contrary), but in this case I can understand their reasoning. You don't > know what corner-case bugs might slip in with RHEL derivatives that are > not 100% binary compatible. So to support distros like SL, they would > have to spend a fair bit of time and money to test against them (and > repeat for every update). Why bother when there is a compatible, free > alternative in CentOS? > > As for Debian support, I suspect it's more a question of market share. > If you're selling a product aimed at enterprise, and if the bulk of your > potential client base runs OS A, why spend a lot of money to support the > smaller OS B option? These are fairly simple business decisions and do > not reflect on the quality of OS B. > > -- > Digimer > Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ > What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without > access to education? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 17:22:57 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 18:22:57 +0100 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 5:30 PM, William Muriithi wrote: >> Yes, this is a shame, I agree. The world (I was going to say >> "computing world" but I think it extends beyond that) owes Debian a >> huge debt and it's not always or even often recognized. It is quite >> frustrating to get .tar.gz or .rpm downloads but rarely a .deb. I(t's >> also frustrating when the .rpm is for some ancient RHEL version too. >> :( ) >> > May be we should blame the network effect but sometimes its even more weird. > > Case in point, Cisco SSL vpn client is Java based yet they made it RedHat > specific. I thought Java is platform independent. My experience is that things have gotten somewhat better on the java front but for a long time "platform independent" was only true if you were willing to maintain ~8 versions of the platform (jre) on any given box. :) > Other cases that have left me flabbergasted, Vertica, Oracle or even Dell > will not support their application on Scientific Linux despite them being > the same binaries as RHEL. What is worse? Not supporting a major distro like Debian or not supporting a clone of a supported platform? It'd be interesting to hear the discussions had by the PHB's around things like this. Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 18:44:27 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:44:27 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <5086C618.3030106-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5086C618.3030106@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: <20121023184427.GV18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:30:16PM -0400, Digimer wrote: > It's not that companies feel that RHEL is the only Linux distro. It's > that Red Hat the support company is the best at providing support to > large businesses. Companies pay Red Hat for access to timely updates and > for their support infrastructure. > > Those who don't need or don't want to pay for that can use CentOS and > get 100% the same software without paying any money. And then when they try to run some other proprietary software it refuses to run because you have centos and not RHEL, and the support people say "We don't know what centos is. We only support RHEL." Nevermind that we have no interest or need in RHEL support. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 18:49:53 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:49:53 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <5086C73E.2010605-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5086C73E.2010605@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: <20121023184953.GW18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:35:10PM -0400, Digimer wrote: > This is incorrect. SL does not strive for binary compatibility with > RHEL. So far as I know, only CentOS strives for this. It's a major > reason why SL was able to push out v6.0 months before CentOS was able > to. The CentOS folks needed to effectively reverse-engineer the Red Hat > build environment. > > I am not one to defend either Oracle, Dell or Cisco (quite the > contrary), but in this case I can understand their reasoning. You don't > know what corner-case bugs might slip in with RHEL derivatives that are > not 100% binary compatible. So to support distros like SL, they would > have to spend a fair bit of time and money to test against them (and > repeat for every update). Why bother when there is a compatible, free > alternative in CentOS? > > As for Debian support, I suspect it's more a question of market share. > If you're selling a product aimed at enterprise, and if the bulk of your > potential client base runs OS A, why spend a lot of money to support the > smaller OS B option? These are fairly simple business decisions and do > not reflect on the quality of OS B. I guess a big problem for Debian users is that no one knows how many Debian systems are out there. Redhat knows exactly how many support contracts are active. It is quite possible there are more Debian systems, but no one will ever know. I suppose it is also possible those running Debian wouldn't be nearly as interested in such proprietary addons anyhow. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 19:00:07 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 15:00:07 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <20121023184953.GW18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5086C73E.2010605@alteeve.ca> <20121023184953.GW18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5086E937.30308@sobac.com> On 12-10-23 02:49 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I guess a big problem for Debian users is that no one knows how many > Debian systems are out there. Redhat knows exactly how many support > contracts are active. > > It is quite possible there are more Debian systems, but no one will > ever know. I suppose it is also possible those running Debian wouldn't > be nearly as interested in such proprietary addons anyhow. Anecdotally, of the three places I've recently worked two primarily used Debian for their Linux boxes; I don't know what was used in the third. Of course, in all three places Windows server was more prevalent than Linux, and in two of the three there was even more Solaris and Netware than Linux... --Bob. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 23:42:17 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 19:42:17 -0400 Subject: How stable is Debian Unstable? In-Reply-To: <20121022154418.GJ18612-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20121022154418.GJ18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I use unstable on my work desktop, my home desktop and laptop and my > mythtv box. > > I upgrade haphazardly (sometimes multiple times in a day, sometimes 2 > or 3 weeks apart). > > The only times I ever had trouble is if I try to upgrade in the middle of > a major transition (perl 5.12 to 5.14 for example) when not everything > needed is in the archive yet. In those cases, I see the long list of > tings to be removed and think "That looks wrong" and don't upgrade and > wait a day or two and try again. > > I always use apt-get dist-upgrade. I know aptitude is supposed to be > better, but its conflict resolution tends to drive me bonkers with its > long questions. I consider synaptic useless. Thanks for the responses. I like the idea behind a "rolling release" of incremental, continuous change vs the "punctuated equilibrium" model mentioned elsewhere and Debian unstable sounds like rolling release done right. I also will take another look at Linux Mint Debian Edition ... it sounds more suitable for a few people I help with their Linux installs. Thanks for mentioning it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 23 23:47:35 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 19:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: <5086C618.3030106-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5086C618.3030106@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: | From: Digimer | It's not that companies feel that RHEL is the only Linux distro. It's | that Red Hat the support company is the best at providing support to | large businesses. Companies pay Red Hat for access to timely updates and | for their support infrastructure. | | Those who don't need or don't want to pay for that can use CentOS and | get 100% the same software without paying any money. True. I have found that there is some Red Hat support for CentOS! We CentOS users can file bugzilla reports and they do get addressed. Of course the service level isn't guaranteed. For example, I found a RHEL 5 kind-of-bug in the kernel. It apparently (by the number of bug reports) only hit me. It appeared that Red Hat would have patched their kernel to fix it but I suggested that it was unnecessary and unwise since the bug fix might break more than one system and I already knew how to (un)patch the kernel to fix my problem. (The cause of the bug was that Red Hat selectively backports kernel patches. One caused the kernel to ignore one of the ACPI tables on my computer as nonsense. That's because it expected another patch (not backported) to filter the entries.) Note: Red Hat did not figure out the problem. I did, and involved an Intel ACPI maintainer (my fault: I reported it as a upstream kernel bug when it was not). But 20 years ago I spent a small fortune on Sun support and got less (Sun ignored a bug report in which I even told them where the serial driver had to be fixed). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 00:29:19 2012 From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 20:29:19 -0400 Subject: Views from an Red Hat -> Ubuntu -> Fedora migrator In-Reply-To: References: <50809775.5050909@alteeve.ca> <20121019145128.GH18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121022155428.GK18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20121023154212.GU18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5086C618.3030106@alteeve.ca> Message-ID: <5087365F.30409@alteeve.ca> On 10/23/2012 07:47 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Digimer > > | It's not that companies feel that RHEL is the only Linux distro. It's > | that Red Hat the support company is the best at providing support to > | large businesses. Companies pay Red Hat for access to timely updates and > | for their support infrastructure. > | > | Those who don't need or don't want to pay for that can use CentOS and > | get 100% the same software without paying any money. > > True. > > I have found that there is some Red Hat support for CentOS! We CentOS > users can file bugzilla reports and they do get addressed. Of course > the service level isn't guaranteed. > > For example, I found a RHEL 5 kind-of-bug in the kernel. It > apparently (by the number of bug reports) only hit me. It appeared > that Red Hat would have patched their kernel to fix it but I suggested > that it was unnecessary and unwise since the bug fix might break more > than one system and I already knew how to (un)patch the kernel to fix my > problem. > > (The cause of the bug was that Red Hat selectively backports kernel > patches. One caused the kernel to ignore one of the ACPI tables on my > computer as nonsense. That's because it expected another patch (not > backported) to filter the entries.) > > Note: Red Hat did not figure out the problem. I did, and involved an > Intel ACPI maintainer (my fault: I reported it as a upstream kernel bug > when it was not). But 20 years ago I spent a small fortune on Sun support > and got less (Sun ignored a bug report in which I even told them where the > serial driver had to be fixed). I've filed many bugs on rhbz from centos systems and they were addressed most of the time, too (feel free to search rhbz for "digimer" to see many examples, if you care to). >From my discussions with various Red Hat people, I hear repeatedly that they like CentOS. CentOS users today might become Red Hat customers tomorrow. Like you said though, priority always goes to paying customers and rightly so. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 11:43:36 2012 From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 07:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: lots and lots of online linux kernel tutorials Message-ID: hi, folks. for those of you who remember me, i now live in ottawa and am in the midst of writing/updating a massive amount of linux courseware, covering kernel programming, device drivers and embedded linux. in aid of this, i've decided to keep rough notes on various kernel topics at my web site: http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Kernel_topics think of all that as my working copies -- since all of the eventual courseware will be released under the creative commons license, i have no qualms about publishing early material and letting people have at it. while it's a wiki for now, i'm not allowing public editing to keep out the spammers. eventually, i'm going to reorganize all of that to allow reader comments. in any event, while everything showing up at that page and below it is a first pass and just my way of keeping track of stuff for later, you're welcome to peruse to your heart's content. thoughts? rday -- ======================================================================== Robert P. J. Day Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca Twitter: http://twitter.com/rpjday LinkedIn: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rpjday ======================================================================== -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 12:06:37 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 08:06:37 -0400 Subject: lots and lots of online linux kernel tutorials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5087D9CD.7020409@rogers.com> Robert P. J. Day wrote: > for those of you who remember me, i now live in ottawa Where do you live if we don't remember you? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 13:34:17 2012 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 09:34:17 -0400 Subject: lots and lots of online linux kernel tutorials In-Reply-To: <5087D9CD.7020409-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <5087D9CD.7020409@rogers.com> Message-ID: I'd like to believe it's a magical cyber castle orbiting Pluto, mostly out of respect for people who write tutorials and guides. I'll definately look through it that along with forwarding it to a few of my friends in the states who are more into the embedded side who fit what I figure are your target audience. Will Weaver On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:06 AM, James Knott wrote: > Robert P. J. Day wrote: > >> for those of you who remember me, i now live in ottawa >> > > Where do you live if we don't remember you? ;-) > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 24 16:20:02 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 12:20:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for love on github Message-ID: Ran across the following story about a woman who is looking for love via an advertisement on github : http://gizmodo.com/5954354/can-this-girl-find-love-on-a-coding-website The reason this is Linux related is some of the requirements Noriko Higashi has posted (https://github.com/norinori2222/boyfriend_require/blob/master/README-en.md) , which include : - Someone who prefers Mac/Linux to Windows. - Someone who writes beautiful code--it makes me cry tears of joy. (Required) - Someone who maintains their own server (Required, Linux preferred) - Someone who will let me help them maintain their own server (Required) - Someone with public repos on Github (Required) I wish her well, I fail in areas such as "Someone who can play classic or jazz piano." (sigh...). Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 04:37:41 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:37:41 -0400 Subject: Raid10 calibrating every 0.5 second? Message-ID: <20121025043740.GA10217@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi, anyone here running Raid10? My Raid10 seems to be "calibrating" (so I think) every 0.5 second. It's slightly different from "clicking" sound when harddisk is about to die. So, it's thrashing almost continually if it's mounted, even if there is no user-level disk activity. Of course, no sound if it's un-mounted. I played around with "scheduler" (noop, deadline, cfq), but no difference. Any ponters? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 05:55:37 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:55:37 -0700 Subject: Raid10 calibrating every 0.5 second? In-Reply-To: <20121025043740.GA10217-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20121025043740.GA10217@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: Try "cat /proc/mdstat" ? On Oct 24, 2012 9:38 PM, "William Park" wrote: > Hi, anyone here running Raid10? > > My Raid10 seems to be "calibrating" (so I think) every 0.5 second. It's > slightly different from "clicking" sound when harddisk is about to die. > So, it's thrashing almost continually if it's mounted, even if there is > no user-level disk activity. Of course, no sound if it's un-mounted. > > I played around with "scheduler" (noop, deadline, cfq), but no > difference. Any ponters? > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marclijour-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 06:43:23 2012 From: marclijour-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marc Lijour) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 02:43:23 -0400 Subject: How stable is Debian Unstable? In-Reply-To: References: <20121022154418.GJ18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Agreed, I am also looking art Mint Debian. I am still running Mint 12. I got so used to rolling updates and releases with Mandriva. Who has the time to reinstall everything twice a year? I also want to give Mageia a try sooner rather than later. On 2012-10-23 7:42 PM, "Daniel Wayne Armstrong" wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > I use unstable on my work desktop, my home desktop and laptop and my > > mythtv box. > > > > I upgrade haphazardly (sometimes multiple times in a day, sometimes 2 > > or 3 weeks apart). > > > > The only times I ever had trouble is if I try to upgrade in the middle of > > a major transition (perl 5.12 to 5.14 for example) when not everything > > needed is in the archive yet. In those cases, I see the long list of > > tings to be removed and think "That looks wrong" and don't upgrade and > > wait a day or two and try again. > > > > I always use apt-get dist-upgrade. I know aptitude is supposed to be > > better, but its conflict resolution tends to drive me bonkers with its > > long questions. I consider synaptic useless. > > Thanks for the responses. I like the idea behind a "rolling release" > of incremental, continuous change vs the "punctuated equilibrium" > model mentioned elsewhere and Debian unstable sounds like rolling > release done right. > > I also will take another look at Linux Mint Debian Edition ... it > sounds more suitable for a few people I help with their Linux > installs. Thanks for mentioning it. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 06:45:49 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 07:45:49 +0100 Subject: Raid10 calibrating every 0.5 second? In-Reply-To: <20121025043740.GA10217-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20121025043740.GA10217@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 5:37 AM, William Park wrote: > I played around with "scheduler" (noop, deadline, cfq), but no > difference. Any ponters? Looking at /proc/mdstat is a good idea as Tyler mentioned. I'd also be looking at getting smartmon to see how it feels about the disk health. Look in /var/log/messages and /var/log/kern for anything being logged too. Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 19:30:51 2012 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Domains not resolving Message-ID: My landlord has just switched form Teksavvy on DSL to Teksavvy on cable. The DSL modem, 2wire with built-in wireless, worked with no problems. He now has a cable modem plus a DLink DIR-815 wireless router. My laptop, running Mandriva 2010.1, connects with no problems. My desktop, running Mandriva 2010.2, connects but does not resolve URLs (Firefox works fine; lynx does not). I can connect (ssh, smtp, POP3, etc.) if I give a dotted quad IP address, but not with a URL. This is info from both machines: $ iwconfig wlan0 ## laptop wlan0 IEEE 802.11bg ESSID:"MY HOME 1" Mode:Managed Frequency:2.462 GHz Access Point: BC:F6:85:C0:A4:E1 Bit Rate=36 Mb/s Tx-Power=27 dBm Retry long limit:7 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off Power Management:off Link Quality=64/70 Signal level=-46 dBm Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0 $ iwconfig wlan0 ## desktop wlan0 IEEE 802.11g ESSID:"MY HOME 1" Nickname:"localhost.localdomain" Mode:Managed Frequency:2.462 GHz Access Point: BC:F6:85:C0:A4:E1 Bit Rate=48 Mb/s Tx-Power:20 dBm Sensitivity=-121 dBm RTS thr=2347 B Fragment thr=2346 B Power Management:off Link Quality:70/100 Signal level:-51 dBm Noise level:-96 dBm Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0 Does anyone have any idea how to fix it? -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 19:33:59 2012 From: davecramer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:33:59 -0400 Subject: Domains not resolving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Use google's name servers 8.8.8.8 and 4.4.4.4 I think Dave Cramer On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > My landlord has just switched form Teksavvy on DSL to Teksavvy on cable. > > The DSL modem, 2wire with built-in wireless, worked with no problems. > > He now has a cable modem plus a DLink DIR-815 wireless router. > > My laptop, running Mandriva 2010.1, connects with no problems. > > My desktop, running Mandriva 2010.2, connects but does not resolve URLs > (Firefox works fine; lynx does not). I can connect (ssh, smtp, POP3, > etc.) if > I give a dotted quad IP address, but not with a URL. > > This is info from both machines: > > $ iwconfig wlan0 ## laptop > wlan0 IEEE 802.11bg ESSID:"MY HOME 1" > Mode:Managed Frequency:2.462 GHz Access Point: BC:F6:85:C0:A4:E1 > Bit Rate=36 Mb/s Tx-Power=27 dBm > Retry long limit:7 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off > Power Management:off > Link Quality=64/70 Signal level=-46 dBm > Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 > Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0 > > $ iwconfig wlan0 ## desktop > wlan0 IEEE 802.11g ESSID:"MY HOME 1" Nickname:"localhost.localdomain" > Mode:Managed Frequency:2.462 GHz Access Point: BC:F6:85:C0:A4:E1 > Bit Rate=48 Mb/s Tx-Power:20 dBm Sensitivity=-121 dBm > RTS thr=2347 B Fragment thr=2346 B > Power Management:off > Link Quality:70/100 Signal level:-51 dBm Noise level:-96 dBm > Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 > Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0 > > > Does anyone have any idea how to fix it? > > -- > Chris F.A. Johnson, > Author: > Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) > Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 20:15:58 2012 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:15:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Domains not resolving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Dave Cramer wrote: > Use google's name servers 8.8.8.8 and 4.4.4.4 I think I tried those (and 216.239.32.10) in /etc/resolv.conf, but it didn't help. URLs in .etc.hosts don't do anything, either. On the laptop, /etc/resolv.conf contains 192.168.0.1 (the router). I just discovered the command resolveip, and it resolves the addresses just fine. > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson > wrote: >> >> My landlord has just switched form Teksavvy on DSL to Teksavvy on cable. >> >> The DSL modem, 2wire with built-in wireless, worked with no problems. >> >> He now has a cable modem plus a DLink DIR-815 wireless router. >> >> My laptop, running Mandriva 2010.1, connects with no problems. >> >> My desktop, running Mandriva 2010.2, connects but does not resolve URLs >> (Firefox works fine; lynx does not). I can connect (ssh, smtp, POP3, >> etc.) if I give a dotted quad IP address, but not with a URL. >> >> This is info from both machines: >> >> $ iwconfig wlan0 ## laptop >> wlan0 IEEE 802.11bg ESSID:"MY HOME 1" >> Mode:Managed Frequency:2.462 GHz Access Point: BC:F6:85:C0:A4:E1 >> Bit Rate=36 Mb/s Tx-Power=27 dBm >> Retry long limit:7 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off >> Power Management:off >> Link Quality=64/70 Signal level=-46 dBm >> Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 >> Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0 >> >> $ iwconfig wlan0 ## desktop >> wlan0 IEEE 802.11g ESSID:"MY HOME 1" Nickname:"localhost.localdomain" >> Mode:Managed Frequency:2.462 GHz Access Point: BC:F6:85:C0:A4:E1 >> Bit Rate=48 Mb/s Tx-Power:20 dBm Sensitivity=-121 dBm >> RTS thr=2347 B Fragment thr=2346 B >> Power Management:off >> Link Quality:70/100 Signal level:-51 dBm Noise level:-96 dBm >> Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 >> Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0 >> >> >> Does anyone have any idea how to fix it? -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 20:44:13 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:44:13 +0100 Subject: Domains not resolving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, >> Use google's name servers 8.8.8.8 and 4.4.4.4 I think > > > I tried those (and 216.239.32.10) in /etc/resolv.conf, but it didn't > help. What is in resolv.conf on the desktop that doesn't work (before you modified for testing)? You said that firefox worked but lynx didn't...that means that firefox was doing name lookups and was able to view URL's but lynx couldn't? Were you perhaps getting cached pages in firefox? (Try a private browsing session to avoid this...) > URLs in .etc.hosts don't do anything, either. /etc/hosts takes IP to name mappings, not URLs. What were you adding to the hosts file? > I just discovered the command resolveip, and it resolves the addresses > just fine. Do they indicate which DNS server they're using? Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 20:47:00 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:47:00 -0400 Subject: Domains not resolving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121025204700.GX18612@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 03:30:51PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > My landlord has just switched form Teksavvy on DSL to Teksavvy on cable. > > The DSL modem, 2wire with built-in wireless, worked with no problems. > > He now has a cable modem plus a DLink DIR-815 wireless router. > > My laptop, running Mandriva 2010.1, connects with no problems. > > My desktop, running Mandriva 2010.2, connects but does not resolve URLs > (Firefox works fine; lynx does not). I can connect (ssh, smtp, POP3, etc.) if > I give a dotted quad IP address, but not with a URL. > > This is info from both machines: > > $ iwconfig wlan0 ## laptop > wlan0 IEEE 802.11bg ESSID:"MY HOME 1" > Mode:Managed Frequency:2.462 GHz Access Point: BC:F6:85:C0:A4:E1 > Bit Rate=36 Mb/s Tx-Power=27 dBm > Retry long limit:7 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off > Power Management:off > Link Quality=64/70 Signal level=-46 dBm > Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 > Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0 > > $ iwconfig wlan0 ## desktop > wlan0 IEEE 802.11g ESSID:"MY HOME 1" Nickname:"localhost.localdomain" > Mode:Managed Frequency:2.462 GHz Access Point: BC:F6:85:C0:A4:E1 > Bit Rate=48 Mb/s Tx-Power:20 dBm Sensitivity=-121 dBm > RTS thr=2347 B Fragment thr=2346 B > Power Management:off > Link Quality:70/100 Signal level:-51 dBm Noise level:-96 dBm > Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 > Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0 > > > Does anyone have any idea how to fix it? Any chance you configured a proxy in the past that some programs are using and others are not and now it is no longer reachable? You might have an http_proxy environment or something like that. Can the 'host' command resolv IPs? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 25 20:53:25 2012 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Domains not resolving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > My landlord has just switched form Teksavvy on DSL to Teksavvy on cable. > > The DSL modem, 2wire with built-in wireless, worked with no problems. > > He now has a cable modem plus a DLink DIR-815 wireless router. > > My laptop, running Mandriva 2010.1, connects with no problems. > > My desktop, running Mandriva 2010.2, connects but does not resolve URLs > (Firefox works fine; lynx does not). I can connect (ssh, smtp, POP3, etc.) Problem solved: permissions had changed on /etc/hosts and only root could read it. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 00:46:55 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:46:55 -0400 Subject: Domains not resolving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121026004654.GB26244@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 03:30:51PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote > > My landlord has just switched form Teksavvy on DSL to Teksavvy on cable. > > The DSL modem, 2wire with built-in wireless, worked with no problems. > > He now has a cable modem plus a DLink DIR-815 wireless router. > > My laptop, running Mandriva 2010.1, connects with no problems. > > My desktop, running Mandriva 2010.2, connects but does not > resolve URLs (Firefox works fine; lynx does not). I can connect > (ssh, smtp, POP3, etc.) if I give a dotted quad IP address, > but not with a URL. This sounds like you're not getting a proper value in /etc/resolv.conf I assume you used the DSL router/modem as your DNS server, and it passed queries to Teksavvy's servers. The cable router/modem probably has a different IP address than the old DSL router modem, and the entry in your /etc/resolv.conf is no longer valid. You have 3 options... 1) Figure out the IP address of the cable router/modem, and insert that into your /etc/resolv.conf. Try "traceroute -n 8.8.8.8". The "-n" forces numeric-only mode, i.e. no name lookups. I get... 1 192.168.123.254 37.714 ms 37.018 ms 36.719 ms 2 206.248.154.104 13.052 ms 13.996 ms 19.292 ms 3 69.196.136.66 20.489 ms 22.277 ms 25.328 ms 4 206.108.34.6 25.966 ms 28.586 ms 29.269 ms 5 216.239.47.114 31.402 ms 32.028 ms 34.698 ms 6 216.239.46.170 54.211 ms 209.85.255.235 43.415 ms 45.206 ms 7 72.14.239.93 47.117 ms 46.574 ms 209.85.249.11 46.811 ms 8 72.14.238.16 45.735 ms 72.14.238.18 45.803 ms 45.916 ms 9 216.239.49.145 54.769 ms 53.464 ms 53.448 ms 10 8.8.8.8 43.686 ms 43.232 ms 44.828 ms And yes, my ADSL router/modem is 192.168.123.254, the first item in the list. Run "traceroute -n 8.8.8.8" on your machine, and copy the first IP address in your output to /etc/resolv.conf. 2) Insert the IP address of Teksavvy's nameservers directly into your /etc/resolv.conf. According to a thread on Teksavvy's forum on dslreports.com, their DNS servers are 206.248.154.22 and 206.248.154.170. 3) Use a public nameserver like Google (8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4) or OpenDNS (208.67.222.222 and 208.67.220.220 -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 26 13:31:02 2012 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 06:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Domains not resolving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1351258262.87082.YahooMailNeo@web120801.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave Cramer > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Domains not resolving > > Use google's name servers 8.8.8.8 and 4.4.4.4 I think > OP's issue is solved but I can't help it; Google's DNS servers are 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 (not 4.4.4.4) ?http://xkcd.com/386/?:-) Somehow related, I'm a fan of ? ?http://code.google.com/p/namebench/?, a tool that will find the fastest nameservers for your location and usage. Cheers, Fernando http://fduran.com/? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 11:01:06 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 07:01:06 -0400 Subject: Questions about building from source tarball Message-ID: <20121029110106.GA5336@waltdnes.org> Several years ago, back in the days of Mozilla 0.9x and Phoenix, I used to build Mozilla or Pheonix from the source tarball. I've been using Gentoo for years, and I've forgotten a lot about building manually from source. I asked this question on mozillazine.org, but no answers yet. Hopefully, I can get some help here. I'm looking at https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Simple_SeaMonkey_build and I have a few questions... 1) What options do I need to set to make Seamonkey (or Firefox) build in, and run from, a local dir, e.g. "${HOME}/seamonkey"? I'd prefer to avoid jumping to root for the install. And throwing in files in /usr that my distro package management (portage) doesn't know about, is begging for trouble. 2) I read the instructions on how to pass the "O2" flag to the make and compile process. What about the rest of the CFLAGS line? My CFLAGS are CFLAGS="-O2 -march=native -mfpmath=sse -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe -fno-unwind-tables -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables" -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 16:31:12 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:31:12 -0400 Subject: whois hacked? - google data changed Message-ID: I just ran "whois google.com" through http://networking.ringofsaturn.com/Tools/whois.php and got this: Whois Server Version 2.0 Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net for detailed information. GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.LOVE.AND.TOLERANCE.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.HAVENDATA.COM GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.GET.ONE.MILLION.DOLLARS.AT.WWW.UNIMUNDI.COM GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZ.GET.LAID.AT.WWW.SWINGINGCOMMUNITY.COM GOOGLE.COM.ZOMBIED.AND.HACKED.BY.WWW.WEB-HACK.COM GOOGLE.COM.ZNAET.PRODOMEN.COM GOOGLE.COM.Z.LOVE.AND.TOLERANCE.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM GOOGLE.COM.YUCEKIRBAC.COM GOOGLE.COM.YUCEHOCA.COM GOOGLE.COM.WORDT.DOOR.VEEL.WHTERS.GEBRUIKT.SERVERTJE.NET GOOGLE.COM.VN GOOGLE.COM.VABDAYOFF.COM GOOGLE.COM.UY GOOGLE.COM.UA GOOGLE.COM.TW GOOGLE.COM.TR GOOGLE.COM.SUCKS.FIND.CRACKZ.WITH.SEARCH.GULLI.COM GOOGLE.COM.SPROSIUYANDEKSA.RU GOOGLE.COM.SPAMMING.IS.UNETHICAL.PLEASE.STOP.THEM.HUAXUEERBAN.COM GOOGLE.COM.SOUTHBEACHNEEDLEARTISTRY.COM GOOGLE.COM.SHQIPERIA.COM GOOGLE.COM.SA GOOGLE.COM.PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENIS.COM GOOGLE.COM.PE GOOGLE.COM.MY GOOGLE.COM.MX GOOGLE.COM.LOLOLOLOLOL.SHTHEAD.COM GOOGLE.COM.LASERPIPE.COM GOOGLE.COM.IS.NOT.HOSTED.BY.ACTIVEDOMAINDNS.NET GOOGLE.COM.IS.HOSTED.ON.PROFITHOSTING.NET GOOGLE.COM.IS.APPROVED.BY.NUMEA.COM GOOGLE.COM.HK GOOGLE.COM.HICHINA.COM GOOGLE.COM.HAS.LESS.FREE.PORN.IN.ITS.SEARCH.ENGINE.THAN.SECZY.COM GOOGLE.COM.DO GOOGLE.COM.CO GOOGLE.COM.CN GOOGLE.COM.BR GOOGLE.COM.BITERMANSOLUTIONS.COM GOOGLE.COM.BEYONDWHOIS.COM GOOGLE.COM.AU GOOGLE.COM.AR GOOGLE.COM.ALL.THE.PEOPLE.WHO.SPAM.THE.WHOIS.ARE.SERIOUSLY.ANNOYING.SOMEPONY.COM GOOGLE.COM.AFRICANBATS.ORG GOOGLE.COM.9.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM GOOGLE.COM.1.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM GOOGLE.COM [ SNIP STANDARD VERBIAGE ] -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:25:43 2012 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:25:43 -0300 Subject: whois hacked? - google data changed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's it: "Whois Server Version 2.0" This is "normal". People are always spamming old whois bases. Check your base against this one: $ whois --version && whois gogle.com | grep Version You'll see the difference. For the ones who are curious about that: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CFIQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.icann.org%2Fen%2Fgroups%2Fssac%2Fdocuments%2Fsac-023-en.pdf&ei=YLiOUPTaPIrI9QTewIGwCg&usg=AFQjCNEMcmihgC8FZOlpXTs8elHi7fmq8g&sig2=LV1rnhHajXZ51YnHClKAOw Or the short one: http://goo.gl/MZSCp =================================================== Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha - Kalib Graduando em Sistemas de Informa??es - EST?CIO/FIC Usu?rio Linux #407564 | Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 Fortaleza - Cear? - Brazil Celular: +55 085 87620983 Certifica??es: ITIL V3 | CSM | LPI-C1 | LPI-C2 | LPI-C3 | Novell CLA Minha Pessoa: Blog Projetos: Tux-CE | Archlinux-br | Chakra | KDE Brasil | TLUG | PUG-CE =================================================== Proteja meu endere?o como estou protegendo o seu. N?o revele e-mail dos correspondentes: use Cco (Copia Carbonada Oculta). Retire os endere?os antes de reenviar. Dificulte assim a dissemina??o de v?rus e spam. On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > I just ran "whois google.com" through > http://networking.ringofsaturn.com/Tools/whois.php and got this: > > Whois Server Version 2.0 > > Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered > with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net > for detailed information. > > > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.LOVE.AND.TOLERANCE.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.HAVENDATA.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.GET.ONE.MILLION.DOLLARS.AT.WWW.UNIMUNDI.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZ.GET.LAID.AT.WWW.SWINGINGCOMMUNITY.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZOMBIED.AND.HACKED.BY.WWW.WEB-HACK.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZNAET.PRODOMEN.COM > GOOGLE.COM.Z.LOVE.AND.TOLERANCE.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM > GOOGLE.COM.YUCEKIRBAC.COM > GOOGLE.COM.YUCEHOCA.COM > GOOGLE.COM.WORDT.DOOR.VEEL.WHTERS.GEBRUIKT.SERVERTJE.NET > GOOGLE.COM.VN > GOOGLE.COM.VABDAYOFF.COM > GOOGLE.COM.UY > GOOGLE.COM.UA > GOOGLE.COM.TW > GOOGLE.COM.TR > GOOGLE.COM.SUCKS.FIND.CRACKZ.WITH.SEARCH.GULLI.COM > GOOGLE.COM.SPROSIUYANDEKSA.RU > GOOGLE.COM.SPAMMING.IS.UNETHICAL.PLEASE.STOP.THEM.HUAXUEERBAN.COM > GOOGLE.COM.SOUTHBEACHNEEDLEARTISTRY.COM > GOOGLE.COM.SHQIPERIA.COM > GOOGLE.COM.SA > > GOOGLE.COM.PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENIS.COM > GOOGLE.COM.PE > GOOGLE.COM.MY > GOOGLE.COM.MX > GOOGLE.COM.LOLOLOLOLOL.SHTHEAD.COM > GOOGLE.COM.LASERPIPE.COM > GOOGLE.COM.IS.NOT.HOSTED.BY.ACTIVEDOMAINDNS.NET > GOOGLE.COM.IS.HOSTED.ON.PROFITHOSTING.NET > GOOGLE.COM.IS.APPROVED.BY.NUMEA.COM > GOOGLE.COM.HK > GOOGLE.COM.HICHINA.COM > GOOGLE.COM.HAS.LESS.FREE.PORN.IN.ITS.SEARCH.ENGINE.THAN.SECZY.COM > GOOGLE.COM.DO > GOOGLE.COM.CO > GOOGLE.COM.CN > GOOGLE.COM.BR > GOOGLE.COM.BITERMANSOLUTIONS.COM > GOOGLE.COM.BEYONDWHOIS.COM > GOOGLE.COM.AU > GOOGLE.COM.AR > > GOOGLE.COM.ALL.THE.PEOPLE.WHO.SPAM.THE.WHOIS.ARE.SERIOUSLY.ANNOYING.SOMEPONY.COM > GOOGLE.COM.AFRICANBATS.ORG > GOOGLE.COM.9.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM > GOOGLE.COM.1.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM > GOOGLE.COM > > [ SNIP STANDARD VERBIAGE ] > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 17:44:46 2012 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:44:46 -0400 Subject: Awk Question Message-ID: Hey folks, So I'm still working on my awk skills. I'm trying to write a script that allows me to pase a csv file of user rights and get all users that have a specific right. Then using that list of users find all other rights those users have. Ex CSV: UserName,Right Bob,Add Ben,Add Ben,Delete Tommy,Add Sarah,Delete Sarah,Edit My result set if I search for users with Delete should look like Ben,Delete Sarah,Edit This is what I have so far BEGIN { FS = "," } /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2 } /Delete/ {print $1, " - ", Users[$1]} This gets me the list of all users with Delete and prints it for me. I've been tinkering with a few ways to iterate through the array but I can't seem to figure out how to do it. I think it requires two passes through the file, one to generate the user list and one to generate the rights list, but I'm kinda stuck. Anyone have any ideas. Will Weaver -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 18:49:06 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:49:06 -0400 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121029184906.GA3717@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 01:44:46PM -0400, William Weaver wrote: > Hey folks, > > So I'm still working on my awk skills. I'm trying to write a script that > allows me to pase a csv file of user rights and get all users that have a > specific right. Then using that list of users find all other rights those > users have. > > Ex CSV: > > UserName,Right > Bob,Add > Ben,Add > Ben,Delete > Tommy,Add > Sarah,Delete > Sarah,Edit > > My result set if I search for users with Delete should look like > > Ben,Delete > Sarah,Edit > > This is what I have so far > > BEGIN { FS = "," } > > /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2 } > /Delete/ {print $1, " - ", Users[$1]} > > This gets me the list of all users with Delete and prints it for me. I've > been tinkering with a few ways to iterate through the array but I can't > seem to figure out how to do it. I think it requires two passes through the > file, one to generate the user list and one to generate the rights list, > but I'm kinda stuck. Anyone have any ideas. > > Will Weaver :-) If one pass is acceptable for your assignment, try something like this. First, set up "rights" arrays, ie. Add[Bob] = 1 Add[Ben] = 1 Delete[Ben] = 1 Add[Tommy] = 1 Delete[Sarah] = 1 Edit[Sarah] = 1 where Delete array has "Ben" and "Sarah". Second, check if other arrays have "Ben" and "Sarah". Here, "Ben" shows up in Add/Delete arrays, and "Sarah" shows up in Delete/Edit arrays. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 18:55:56 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:55:56 -0400 Subject: Questions about building from source tarball In-Reply-To: <20121029110106.GA5336-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20121029110106.GA5336@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20121029185556.GA4100@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 07:01:06AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > Several years ago, back in the days of Mozilla 0.9x and Phoenix, I > used to build Mozilla or Pheonix from the source tarball. I've been > using Gentoo for years, and I've forgotten a lot about building manually > from source. I asked this question on mozillazine.org, but no answers > yet. Hopefully, I can get some help here. I'm looking at > https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Simple_SeaMonkey_build and I > have a few questions... > > 1) What options do I need to set to make Seamonkey (or Firefox) build > in, and run from, a local dir, e.g. "${HOME}/seamonkey"? I'd prefer to > avoid jumping to root for the install. And throwing in files in /usr > that my distro package management (portage) doesn't know about, is > begging for trouble. > > 2) I read the instructions on how to pass the "O2" flag to the make and > compile process. What about the rest of the CFLAGS line? My CFLAGS are > > CFLAGS="-O2 -march=native -mfpmath=sse -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe -fno-unwind-tables -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables" I used to compile Firefox. Then, I downloaded already compiled tarball and install in /usr/local. Now, I just install distro package (Slackware, in my case). So, try pre-compiled tarball. I think, you can install it anywhere, as long as "firefox" is symlinked in the usual place, like /usr/local/bin. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 19:01:22 2012 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:01:22 -0400 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: <20121029184906.GA3717-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20121029184906.GA3717@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: For the actual work (which I can't give the actual data out because the buisness nature of it. There are alot more rights than the 3 that I put in. I would end up defining enough arrays that it wouldn't be worth it unless I could define the array name dynamically as well. $2[$3]=1 I've been looking at the getline functionality and it seems to be the right path but now I have a boss moving up the time line on me so I may have to do this in a combonation of excel/by hand instead of getting the time to actually learn something useful out of this. I'll still be doing it afterword if for nothing else than my own edification. Will Weaver On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 2:49 PM, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 01:44:46PM -0400, William Weaver wrote: > > Hey folks, > > > > So I'm still working on my awk skills. I'm trying to write a script that > > allows me to pase a csv file of user rights and get all users that have a > > specific right. Then using that list of users find all other rights those > > users have. > > > > Ex CSV: > > > > UserName,Right > > Bob,Add > > Ben,Add > > Ben,Delete > > Tommy,Add > > Sarah,Delete > > Sarah,Edit > > > > My result set if I search for users with Delete should look like > > > > Ben,Delete > > Sarah,Edit > > > > This is what I have so far > > > > BEGIN { FS = "," } > > > > /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2 } > > /Delete/ {print $1, " - ", Users[$1]} > > > > This gets me the list of all users with Delete and prints it for me. I've > > been tinkering with a few ways to iterate through the array but I can't > > seem to figure out how to do it. I think it requires two passes through > the > > file, one to generate the user list and one to generate the rights list, > > but I'm kinda stuck. Anyone have any ideas. > > > > Will Weaver > > :-) If one pass is acceptable for your assignment, try something like > this. First, set up "rights" arrays, ie. > > Add[Bob] = 1 > Add[Ben] = 1 > Delete[Ben] = 1 > Add[Tommy] = 1 > Delete[Sarah] = 1 > Edit[Sarah] = 1 > > where Delete array has "Ben" and "Sarah". Second, check if other arrays > have "Ben" and "Sarah". Here, "Ben" shows up in Add/Delete arrays, and > "Sarah" shows up in Delete/Edit arrays. > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 19:13:07 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:13:07 +0000 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 5:44 PM, William Weaver wrote: > So I'm still working on my awk skills. I'm trying to write a script that > allows me to pase a csv file of user rights and get all users that have a > specific right. Then using that list of users find all other rights those > users have. > > ...snip... > > This gets me the list of all users with Delete and prints it for me. I've > been tinkering with a few ways to iterate through the array but I can't seem > to figure out how to do it. I think it requires two passes through the file, > one to generate the user list and one to generate the rights list, but I'm > kinda stuck. Anyone have any ideas. Not to discourage you from learning something new, but my honest advice is that in 2012, awk is typically _not_ the right tool for this kind of thing. Any/all of ruby/python/perl are perfectly suited to this task and also provide many more abilities for larger scripts. (eg: They're more useful to learn!) The rule of thumb I apply to the use of awk these days is that if you're doing more than pulling field X,Y,Z, possibly with a filter condition, out of a stream you should use a different tool. An example of what I'm describing as the ceiling for awk use might be pulling all users with /bin/sh as their shell from /etc/passwd, listing username and gecos fields... (Please ignore the above if you're learning for the sake of learning.) Now, commenting generally on your approach with awk, if you skip through the whole file looking only for a certain privilege, you'll be restricting yourself to needing a second pass through the file. What you (likely) want to do instead is build two maps as you go through the file. The first mapping is privilege -> user, so store a list of users that have privilege edit, delete, etc. The second map, built at the same time, is the reverse of that: user -> privilege. Here is a quick example I just banged out; The printing logic is ugly, but I think it demonstrates what you're trying to do. #!/usr/bin/awk -f BEGIN { FS="," } { Privs[$2,$1] = 1; Users[$1,$2] = 1; } END { for (u in Users) { split (u, parts, SUBSEP); if (parts[2] == "Delete") { print parts[1]; for (p in Privs) { split(p, privparts, SUBSEP); if (privparts[2] == parts[1]) { print privparts[1]; } } } } } [I had to look up how multidimensional arrays in awk worked...nasty!] Thanks -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 19:21:56 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:21:56 +0000 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > END { > for (u in Users) { > split (u, parts, SUBSEP); You should likely iterate[1] over Privs first, skipping any priv that you don't care about. Then, iterate over the user array for each username found holding the desired privilege. That avoids even looking at users that don't hold the desired privilege. > if (parts[2] == "Delete") { > print parts[1]; > for (p in Privs) { > split(p, privparts, SUBSEP); > if (privparts[2] == parts[1]) { > print privparts[1]; > } > } > } > } > } HTH. Thanks -Ben [1] Because multidimensional arrays are simply concatenated keys stuffed in a single array element, you will need to iterate...unless there is a saner way that I'm not aware of. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 19:27:26 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:27:26 -0400 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: References: <20121029184906.GA3717@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20121029192726.GA4480@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 03:01:22PM -0400, William Weaver wrote: > For the actual work (which I can't give the actual data out because the > buisness nature of it. There are alot more rights than the 3 that I put in. > I would end up defining enough arrays that it wouldn't be worth it unless I > could define the array name dynamically as well. > > $2[$3]=1 > > I've been looking at the getline functionality and it seems to be the right > path but now I have a boss moving up the time line on me so I may have to > do this in a combonation of excel/by hand instead of getting the time to > actually learn something useful out of this. I'll still be doing it > afterword if for nothing else than my own edification. In that case, use multi-index arrays, ie. RightUser["Add", "Bob"] = 1 Right["Add"] = 1 User["Bob"] = 1 Or, you can use Bash's array with similar syntax. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 20:24:05 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:24:05 -0400 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508EE5E5.4070209@ve3syb.ca> On 12-10-29 01:44 PM, William Weaver wrote: > So I'm still working on my awk skills. I'm trying to write a script that > allows me to pase a csv file of user rights and get all users that have a > specific right. Then using that list of users find all other rights those > users have. As a rule I use awk where I need to process individual lines of a file to alter the output somehow or extract info from each line. For what you are suggesting I would probably lean towards using Perl. Depends whether you are trying to learn awk or have restrictions preventing use of Perl. > UserName,Right > Bob,Add > Ben,Add > Ben,Delete > Tommy,Add > Sarah,Delete > Sarah,Edit > > My result set if I search for users with Delete should look like > > Ben,Delete > Sarah,Edit I think you have an error in the example. Are you trying to format the output in to "name,list of perms" (ie. Ben,Add,Delete)? You may be better off parsing the input and building associative arrays. One array for each user with their list of permissions. You can then print the output of the arrays with the perms for each user that can be piped to a file for later searching. Alternatively, you can build arrays based on the perms and get a list of names who have a given permission. You also need to watch out for CSV fields enclosed in quotes where there might be a comma between the quotes. It will mess up splitting the CSV input in to fields. > /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2 } > /Delete/ {print $1, " - ", Users[$1]} /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2; print $1, " - ", Users[$1]; } or /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2; print $1, " - ", Users[$1]; } You can also do the print statement as: printf "%s - %s",$1, Users[$1]; -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 21:05:03 2012 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:05:03 -0400 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: <508EE5E5.4070209-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <508EE5E5.4070209@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: That just gives me the users who have delete. I need the other rights they have that aren't delete. Thanks, Will On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 12-10-29 01:44 PM, William Weaver wrote: > >> So I'm still working on my awk skills. I'm trying to write a script that >> allows me to pase a csv file of user rights and get all users that have a >> specific right. Then using that list of users find all other rights those >> users have. >> > > As a rule I use awk where I need to process individual lines of a file to > alter the output somehow or extract info from each line. For what you are > suggesting I would probably lean towards using Perl. Depends whether you > are trying to learn awk or have restrictions preventing use of Perl. > > > UserName,Right >> Bob,Add >> Ben,Add >> Ben,Delete >> Tommy,Add >> Sarah,Delete >> Sarah,Edit >> >> My result set if I search for users with Delete should look like >> >> Ben,Delete >> Sarah,Edit >> > > I think you have an error in the example. Are you trying to format the > output in to "name,list of perms" (ie. Ben,Add,Delete)? > > You may be better off parsing the input and building associative arrays. > One array for each user with their list of permissions. You can then print > the output of the arrays with the perms for each user that can be piped to > a file for later searching. Alternatively, you can build arrays based on > the perms and get a list of names who have a given permission. > > You also need to watch out for CSV fields enclosed in quotes where there > might be a comma between the quotes. It will mess up splitting the CSV > input in to fields. > > > /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2 } >> /Delete/ {print $1, " - ", Users[$1]} >> > > /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2; print $1, " - ", Users[$1]; } > or > /Delete/ { > Users[$1]=$2; > print $1, " - ", Users[$1]; > } > > You can also do the print statement as: > printf "%s - %s",$1, Users[$1]; > > > -- > Cheers! > > Kevin. > > http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that > distract > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're > | powerful!" > #include | --Chris Hardwick > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 29 22:40:59 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:40:59 -0400 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: References: <508EE5E5.4070209@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20121029224059.GA19387@node1.opengeometry.net> Here is non-Awk/Python/Perl/Ruby solution: mkdir /tmp/Bob; touch /tmp/Bob/Add mkdir /tmp/Ben; touch /tmp/Ben/{Add,Delete} mkdir /tmp/Tommy; touch /tmp/Tommy/Add mkdir /tmp/Sarah; touch /tmp/Sarah/{Delete,Edit} To get all users with Delete rights, cd /tmp ls */Delete | cut -f1 -d/ To get all other rights for users with the Delete rights, cd /tmp ls */Delete | cut -f1 -d/ | xargs ls Adjust to your taste... -- William On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 05:05:03PM -0400, William Weaver wrote: > That just gives me the users who have delete. I need the other rights they > have that aren't delete. > > Thanks, > > Will > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > > On 12-10-29 01:44 PM, William Weaver wrote: > > > >> So I'm still working on my awk skills. I'm trying to write a script that > >> allows me to pase a csv file of user rights and get all users that have a > >> specific right. Then using that list of users find all other rights those > >> users have. > >> > > > > As a rule I use awk where I need to process individual lines of a file to > > alter the output somehow or extract info from each line. For what you are > > suggesting I would probably lean towards using Perl. Depends whether you > > are trying to learn awk or have restrictions preventing use of Perl. > > > > > > UserName,Right > >> Bob,Add > >> Ben,Add > >> Ben,Delete > >> Tommy,Add > >> Sarah,Delete > >> Sarah,Edit > >> > >> My result set if I search for users with Delete should look like > >> > >> Ben,Delete > >> Sarah,Edit > >> > > > > I think you have an error in the example. Are you trying to format the > > output in to "name,list of perms" (ie. Ben,Add,Delete)? > > > > You may be better off parsing the input and building associative arrays. > > One array for each user with their list of permissions. You can then print > > the output of the arrays with the perms for each user that can be piped to > > a file for later searching. Alternatively, you can build arrays based on > > the perms and get a list of names who have a given permission. > > > > You also need to watch out for CSV fields enclosed in quotes where there > > might be a comma between the quotes. It will mess up splitting the CSV > > input in to fields. > > > > > > /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2 } > >> /Delete/ {print $1, " - ", Users[$1]} > >> > > > > /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2; print $1, " - ", Users[$1]; } > > or > > /Delete/ { > > Users[$1]=$2; > > print $1, " - ", Users[$1]; > > } > > > > You can also do the print statement as: > > printf "%s - %s",$1, Users[$1]; > > > > > > -- > > Cheers! > > > > Kevin. > > > > http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that > > distract > > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're > > | powerful!" > > #include | --Chris Hardwick > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 03:06:51 2012 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 23:06:51 -0400 Subject: whois hacked? - google data changed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121029230651.1286ae4b997725f1bca09d2c@eol.ca> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:31:12 -0400 Giles Orr wrote: > I just ran "whois google.com" through > http://networking.ringofsaturn.com/Tools/whois.php and got this: > > Whois Server Version 2.0 > > Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered > with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net > for detailed information. > > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.LOVE.AND.TOLERANCE.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.HAVENDATA.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.GET.ONE.MILLION.DOLLARS.AT.WWW.UNIMUNDI.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZ.GET.LAID.AT.WWW.SWINGINGCOMMUNITY.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZOMBIED.AND.HACKED.BY.WWW.WEB-HACK.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZNAET.PRODOMEN.COM > GOOGLE.COM.Z.LOVE.AND.TOLERANCE.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM > GOOGLE.COM.YUCEKIRBAC.COM... etc. geektools.com works fine. Maybe it was your link that got hacked. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 05:07:02 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 01:07:02 -0400 Subject: whois hacked? - google data changed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121030050702.GA7208@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 12:31:12PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote > I just ran "whois google.com" through > http://networking.ringofsaturn.com/Tools/whois.php and got this: > > Whois Server Version 2.0 > > Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered > with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net > for detailed information. > > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.LOVE.AND.TOLERANCE.THE-WONDERBOLTS.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.HAVENDATA.COM > GOOGLE.COM.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.GET.ONE.MILLION.DOLLARS.AT.WWW.UNIMUNDI.COM That is not a compromise. Anybody can set up ***SUB*** domains containing any legal characters. E.g. I could easily set up GOOGLE.COM.WALTDNES.ORG which is *NOT* the same as GOOGLE.COM/WALTDNES.ORG Notice the slash and the dot? Question; is there a way to search for the end of the name? Something equivalant to regex "GOOGLE.COM$" -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 05:20:50 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 01:20:50 -0400 Subject: Questions about building from source tarball In-Reply-To: <20121029185556.GA4100-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20121029110106.GA5336@waltdnes.org> <20121029185556.GA4100@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20121030052050.GC7208@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 02:55:56PM -0400, William Park wrote > I used to compile Firefox. Then, I downloaded already compiled tarball > and install in /usr/local. Now, I just install distro package > (Slackware, in my case). So, try pre-compiled tarball. I think, you can > install it anywhere, as long as "firefox" is symlinked in the usual > place, like /usr/local/bin. I want to tweak the options for my machine. Not just for optimized compile, but what modules firefox/seamonkey builds with. This is well beyond even what Gentoo offers. And Gentoo's version is not uptodate. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 05:57:56 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 01:57:56 -0400 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: References: <508EE5E5.4070209@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <508F6C64.3060801@ve3syb.ca> On 12-10-29 05:05 PM, William Weaver wrote: > That just gives me the users who have delete. I need the other rights they > have that aren't delete. I wasn't providing a solution to your problem as your example output seemed to contain an error that made it unclear what you wanted out. I was showing you how the two "/DELETE/" lines could be made in to one. If you read the rest of what I wrote I was suggesting the use of associative arrays to save the data being parsed before outputting in your desired format. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 08:38:36 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 04:38:36 -0400 Subject: whois hacked? - google data changed In-Reply-To: <20121030050702.GA7208-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20121030050702.GA7208@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20121030083836.GA7402@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 01:07:02AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote > > That is not a compromise. Anybody can set up ***SUB*** domains > containing any legal characters. E.g. I could easily set up > GOOGLE.COM.WALTDNES.ORG which is *NOT* the same as > GOOGLE.COM/WALTDNES.ORG > > Notice the slash and the dot? Question; is there a way to search for > the end of the name? Something equivalant to regex "GOOGLE.COM$" Actually, that should be "[^a-z,A-Z,0-9]GOOGLE\.COM$" -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 14:11:55 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 10:11:55 -0400 Subject: whois hacked? - google data changed In-Reply-To: <20121030050702.GA7208-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20121030050702.GA7208@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20121030141155.GA14557@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 01:07:02AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > That is not a compromise. Anybody can set up ***SUB*** domains > containing any legal characters. E.g. I could easily set up > GOOGLE.COM.WALTDNES.ORG which is *NOT* the same as > GOOGLE.COM/WALTDNES.ORG > > Notice the slash and the dot? Question; is there a way to search for > the end of the name? Something equivalant to regex "GOOGLE.COM$" Well typically for DNS stuff, if you care, you put a period at the end. google.com. for example. Unfortunately it seems whois doesn't work that way. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 15:49:50 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 11:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: William Weaver | /Delete/ { Users[$1]=$2 } | /Delete/ {print $1, " - ", Users[$1]} I think that these should read $2=="Delete" { Users[$1]=$2 ; print $1, " - ", Users[$1] } You don't want a version of the Little Bobby Tables problem. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 16:19:54 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:19:54 -0400 Subject: Awk Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508FFE2A.80003@ve3syb.ca> On 12-10-30 11:49 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > $2=="Delete" { Users[$1]=$2 ; print $1, " - ", Users[$1] } > > You don't want a version of the Little Bobby Tables problem. > > That is a better version of the check for the Delete perm. The "Little Bobby Tables" problem is one of my favourite xkcd cartoons. :-) -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 21:13:24 2012 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 17:13:24 -0400 Subject: Free CrossOver for a year (Tomorrow only) Message-ID: For those crossing over... Cheers, -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 22:56:32 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:56:32 -0400 Subject: Free CrossOver for a year (Tomorrow only) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121030225632.GA13517@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 05:13:24PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > For those crossing over... > > So, they're going out of business? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 30 23:41:05 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:41:05 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: Notices and Upcoming Meetings In-Reply-To: <508ED02E.5040607-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <508ED02E.5040607@ss.org> Message-ID: Hmm, Damn, this talk seem to have been petty good. Kind of didn't check on what's was on presentation till now :( I didn't see the slides on netsniff-ng, have they been taken down? Anyway a tad pissed with myself On Oct 29, 2012 2:53 PM, "Scott Sullivan" wrote: > ### Notices ### > > GTALUG would like thank Daniel Borkmann of ETH Zurich for his wonderful > talk Dynamic Protocol Stacks in the Linux Kernel. His side talk on > netsniff-ng and other network tools was also very informative and we > encourage those who did not make to meeting to look over the links added to > the wiki page. > > http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Meetings:2012-10 > > > GTALUG would also like to thank and welcome Colin Caprusu and Ivan Frey to > the Board. > > > ### Upcoming Meetings ### > > Tuesday 13th November, 2012 at 7:30pm > http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Meetings:2012-11 > Scrum 101: The Basics w/ Todd Charron > > > ## Upcoming Events ### > > 9th - 11th November 2012 - PyCon Canada > http://pycon.ca/ > > 1st December 2012 - FITC Toronto, Spotlight: Responsive Design > http://www.fitc.ca/events/**about/?event=140 > > 12th - 14th June 2013 - Search Engine Strategies (SES) Toronto > http://sesconference.com/**toronto/ > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 00:44:32 2012 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:44:32 -0400 Subject: Free CrossOver for a year (Tomorrow only) In-Reply-To: <20121030225632.GA13517-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20121030225632.GA13517@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 6:56 PM, William Park wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 05:13:24PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> For those crossing over... >> >> > > So, they're going out of business? It's marketing wrapped in some playful language AFAICT. I seriously doubt a company would put out a press release like this if they were closing up shop. Personally, I have no use for CrossOver. I would've jumped on it about 10 years ago though, back when I was first making the transition to Linux -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 03:04:58 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 23:04:58 -0400 Subject: Free CrossOver for a year (Tomorrow only) In-Reply-To: References: <20121030225632.GA13517@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <5090955A.2010506@ve3syb.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 05:13:24PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > For those crossing over... > > Interesting. Not sure what happens after a year. Does it stop working or do you only have to pay money if you need tech support. I have a few Windows programs I occasionally run in Linux using Wine. One high end CAD package doesn't work any more in Wine due to how they check the licensing key but it would be nice to run that from Linux. It might be worth getting a copy of it to try it out and see how it compares to running programs with Wine. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 07:07:23 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 03:07:23 -0400 Subject: Free CrossOver for a year (Tomorrow only) In-Reply-To: <5090955A.2010506-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20121030225632.GA13517@node1.opengeometry.net> <5090955A.2010506@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <5090CE2B.4070003@sobac.com> On 12-10-30 11:04 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 05:13:24PM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: >> For those crossing over... >> >> > > Interesting. Not sure what happens after a year. Does it stop working or > do you only have to pay money if you need tech support. I took advantage of their offer back in 2008. Got a download file, installed it, and ignored it for a year. Then I got a reminder in 2009 that my free tech support was about to expire, and would I like to renew (for money, this time). I think it's on the up-and-up. I won't be getting it this time around, since native Linux apps are serving me well. --Bob. > > I have a few Windows programs I occasionally run in Linux using Wine. > One high end CAD package doesn't work any more in Wine due to how they > check the licensing key but it would be nice to run that from Linux. It > might be worth getting a copy of it to try it out and see how it > compares to running programs with Wine. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 263 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 15:55:11 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:55:11 -0400 Subject: whois hacked? - google data changed In-Reply-To: <20121030141155.GA14557-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20121030050702.GA7208@waltdnes.org> <20121030141155.GA14557@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 01:07:02AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: >> That is not a compromise. Anybody can set up ***SUB*** domains >> containing any legal characters. E.g. I could easily set up >> GOOGLE.COM.WALTDNES.ORG which is *NOT* the same as >> GOOGLE.COM/WALTDNES.ORG >> >> Notice the slash and the dot? Question; is there a way to search for >> the end of the name? Something equivalant to regex "GOOGLE.COM$" > > Well typically for DNS stuff, if you care, you put a period at the end. > > google.com. for example. > > Unfortunately it seems whois doesn't work that way. The WHOIS RFC specifies very little about what data is to be returned, which means that almost however egregious the result returned, it's not provably "wrong." That being said, the result for GOOGLE.COM seems a little surprising to me. The expected information about that singular zone is listed, at the bottom, and a query is passed on to the relevant registrar, to get contact information. The additional information, with a whole series of "GOOGLE.COM.*" entries, are evidently the list of nameservers/hosts (as per RFC 5732) that begin with the specified string. It's a bit bizarre if you weren't expecting it :-). -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 16:07:19 2012 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:07:19 -0400 Subject: whois hacked? - google data changed In-Reply-To: References: <20121030050702.GA7208@waltdnes.org> <20121030141155.GA14557@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Christopher Browne wrote: > The WHOIS RFC specifies very > little about what data is to be returned, which means that almost > however egregious the result returned, it's not provably "wrong." > > That being said, the result for GOOGLE.COM seems a little surprising to me. > > The expected information about that singular zone is listed, at the > bottom, and a query is passed on to the relevant registrar, to get > contact information. > > The additional information, with a whole series of "GOOGLE.COM.*" > entries, are evidently the list of nameservers/hosts (as per RFC 5732) > that begin with the specified string. It's a bit bizarre if you > weren't expecting it :-). It strikes me as a bit counter-intuitive though: if I run a search on a domain, I want information about *that* domain - not others*. I imagine the reasoning is in the RFC which I'll have to save for reading some rainy day (oh wait, ok - another rainy day ;-) * I also wonder how many of those GOOGLE.COM.* URI's are phishing related or malware infested. -- Scott Elcomb @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca / Github & more Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 18:26:25 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:26:25 -0400 Subject: Free CrossOver for a year (Tomorrow only) In-Reply-To: <5090955A.2010506-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20121030225632.GA13517@node1.opengeometry.net> <5090955A.2010506@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20121031182625.GB14557@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 11:04:58PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote: > Interesting. Not sure what happens after a year. Does it stop > working or do you only have to pay money if you need tech support. I believe for one year you have support and can download upgrades. After a year you are stuck with whatever version you are at, and stop having tech support. > I have a few Windows programs I occasionally run in Linux using > Wine. One high end CAD package doesn't work any more in Wine due to > how they check the licensing key but it would be nice to run that > from Linux. It might be worth getting a copy of it to try it out and > see how it compares to running programs with Wine. Worth a try. To some extent that may be part of why they are doing this. It is lots of publicity in the press and such potentuially, and some people that try it may decide it is really useful to them. -- len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 31 18:34:14 2012 From: williamdweaver-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Weaver) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:34:14 -0400 Subject: Free CrossOver for a year (Tomorrow only) In-Reply-To: <20121031182625.GB14557-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20121030225632.GA13517@node1.opengeometry.net> <5090955A.2010506@ve3syb.ca> <20121031182625.GB14557@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Honestly I'm a huge League of Legends fan, and video gaming really is the reason that my desktop (not my server or workstation) still boots into windows. Things like crossover and the steam for linux project definately help bridge that gap and let me take my workstation linux off the VM and onto the baremetal. Will Weaver On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 11:04:58PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > Interesting. Not sure what happens after a year. Does it stop > > working or do you only have to pay money if you need tech support. > > I believe for one year you have support and can download upgrades. > After a year you are stuck with whatever version you are at, and stop > having tech support. > > > I have a few Windows programs I occasionally run in Linux using > > Wine. One high end CAD package doesn't work any more in Wine due to > > how they check the licensing key but it would be nice to run that > > from Linux. It might be worth getting a copy of it to try it out and > > see how it compares to running programs with Wine. > > Worth a try. > > To some extent that may be part of why they are doing this. It is lots > of publicity in the press and such potentuially, and some people that > try it may decide it is really useful to them. > > -- > len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: