From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  1 15:05:15 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 11:05:15 -0400
Subject: Rogers static name
In-Reply-To: <20120529143102.GI32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120529040051.GA1191@amber> <CAAE8m0FKpaYBDLR04k9C-o_7ULzcwagNM1nDY8zcau1b6Vo-MA@mail.gmail.com> <20120529080300.GA2243@amber> <20120529143102.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FC8DA2B.3070803@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-05-29 10:31 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> host<rogers IP>
>
> nslookup has been deprecated for close to a decade now after all.
> Better get used to NOT using it.

IIRC, nslookup was being dropped in favour of dig. Does anyone know (or 
remember) what is wrong with nslookup or why dig was supposed to be better? 
If dig's output isn't that good compared to nslookup I would have thought 
there would have been more complaints about using dig to replace nslookup. 
Now it seems as if host may have been created to fix the issues of dig that 
was supposed to be better than nslookup.

It is interesting to compare the outputs of nslookup, dig, and host. Without 
any command line options, nslookup and host provide almost the same 
information but its better formatted from host and host adds the mail 
exchanger information. dig provides a bunch of information (eg. the TTL 
values) that the other two don't provide (by default) but its output is more 
cryptic if you are looking beyond a simple name IP mapping in its output.

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  1 16:04:03 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 12:04:03 -0400
Subject: Rogers static name
In-Reply-To: <4FC8DA2B.3070803-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120529040051.GA1191@amber>
 <CAAE8m0FKpaYBDLR04k9C-o_7ULzcwagNM1nDY8zcau1b6Vo-MA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120529080300.GA2243@amber>
 <20120529143102.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FC8DA2B.3070803@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <20120601160403.GM32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 11:05:15AM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> IIRC, nslookup was being dropped in favour of dig. Does anyone know
> (or remember) what is wrong with nslookup or why dig was supposed to
> be better? If dig's output isn't that good compared to nslookup I
> would have thought there would have been more complaints about using
> dig to replace nslookup. Now it seems as if host may have been
> created to fix the issues of dig that was supposed to be better than
> nslookup.

nslookup was buggy in certain conditions, and is replaced by 'host'.

If would for example do a reverse lookup on the specified server and
if that failed, it would reply as if the thing you asked it to lookup
didn't exist, even though all that didn't exist was a reverse name for
the dns server.  That has eventually been fixed, but there are other
issues apparently.

> It is interesting to compare the outputs of nslookup, dig, and host.
> Without any command line options, nslookup and host provide almost
> the same information but its better formatted from host and host
> adds the mail exchanger information. dig provides a bunch of
> information (eg. the TTL values) that the other two don't provide
> (by default) but its output is more cryptic if you are looking
> beyond a simple name IP mapping in its output.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  1 17:57:34 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 13:57:34 -0400
Subject: Rogers static name
In-Reply-To: <20120601160403.GM32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120529040051.GA1191@amber> <CAAE8m0FKpaYBDLR04k9C-o_7ULzcwagNM1nDY8zcau1b6Vo-MA@mail.gmail.com> <20120529080300.GA2243@amber> <20120529143102.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FC8DA2B.3070803@ve3syb.ca> <20120601160403.GM32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FC9028E.1000206@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-06-01 12:04 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> nslookup was buggy in certain conditions, and is replaced by 'host'.
>
> If would for example do a reverse lookup on the specified server and
> if that failed, it would reply as if the thing you asked it to lookup
> didn't exist, even though all that didn't exist was a reverse name for
> the dns server.  That has eventually been fixed, but there are other
> issues apparently.

k, thanks. I had remember hearing about dig as replacement for nslookup but 
hadn't heard about host before. Too many binaries in a *nix system. :-)

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From andrei.dimitrief.jianu-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  1 20:21:23 2012
From: andrei.dimitrief.jianu-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrei Dimitrief-Jianu)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 16:21:23 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
Message-ID: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am using the following script to configure iptables on a laptop running
Fedora 16.


#!/bin/bash
IPTABLES=/sbin/iptables
MODPROBE=/sbin/modprobe

### flush existing rules and set chain policy to DROP
echo "[+] Flushing existing iptables rules..."
$IPTABLES -F
$IPTABLES -F -t nat
$IPTABLES -X
$IPTABLES -P INPUT DROP
$IPTABLES -P OUTPUT DROP
$IPTABLES -P FORWARD DROP

### load connection tracking modules
echo "[+] Load connection-tracking modules..."
$MODPROBE ip_conntrack
$MODPROBE iptable_nat
$MODPROBE ip_conntrack_ftp
$MODPROBE ip_nat_ftp


#### INPUT chain ####
echo "[+] Setting up INPUT chain..."
### state tracking rules
$IPTABLES -A INPUT -m state --state INVALID -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP
INVALID " --log-ip-options --log-tcp-options
$IPTABLES -A INPUT -m state --state INVALID -j DROP
$IPTABLES -A INPUT -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT
### ACCEPT rules
$IPTABLES -A INPUT -p tcp -m state --state NEW --dport 22 -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A INPUT -p icmp --icmp-type echo-request -j ACCEPT
### default INPUT LOG rule
$IPTABLES -A INPUT -i !lo -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP " --log-ip-options
--log-tcp-options


#### OUTPUT chain ####
echo "[+] Setting up OUTPUT chain..."
### state tracking rules
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -m state --state INVALID -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP
INVALID " --log-ip-options --log-tcp-options
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -m state --state INVALID -j DROP
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT
### ACCEPT rules for allowing connections out
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 21 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 22 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 25 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 43 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 80 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 443 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 4321 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p udp --dport 53 -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p icmp --icmp-type echo-request -j ACCEPT
### default OUTPUT LOG rule
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -o !lo -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP " --log-ip-options
--log-tcp-options


#### FORWARD chain ####
echo "[+] Setting up FORWARD chain..."
### state tracking rules
$IPTABLES -A FORWARD -m state --state INVALID -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP
INVALID " --log-ip-options --log-tcp-options
$IPTABLES -A FORWARD -m state --state INVALID -j DROP
### default log rule
$IPTABLES -A FORWARD -i !lo -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP " --log-ip-options
--log-tcp-options


After enabling the configuration and rebooting, I am able to login and use
the laptop in text mode, but not able to login in graphic mode.

Would you be able to tell me how to tweak the script so that it will allow
me to login in graphic mode as well?


Regards,
Andrei.
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  1 20:43:47 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 16:43:47 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+6Dzg5tevz1KBdkxaUQwTrBpF5Lb1JCRKr3TbQUToF1zg@mail.gmail.com>

Andrei,

> $IPTABLES -A INPUT -i !lo -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP " --log-ip-options
--log-tcp-options
>
>
Would you mind breaking this rule into two, one to allow local traffic and
another at the end of the list to block all traffic that don't match any of
the above rules?

> #### OUTPUT chain ####
> echo "[+] Setting up OUTPUT chain..."
> ### state tracking rules
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -m state --state INVALID -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP
INVALID " --log-ip-options --log-tcp-options
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -m state --state INVALID -j DROP
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT
> ### ACCEPT rules for allowing connections out
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 21 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 22 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 25 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 43 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 80 --syn -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 443 --syn -m state --state NEW -j
ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 4321 --syn -m state --state NEW -j
ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p udp --dport 53 -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p icmp --icmp-type echo-request -j ACCEPT
> ### default OUTPUT LOG rule
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -o !lo -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP " --log-ip-options
--log-tcp-options
>
>
> #### FORWARD chain ####
> echo "[+] Setting up FORWARD chain..."
> ### state tracking rules
> $IPTABLES -A FORWARD -m state --state INVALID -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP
INVALID " --log-ip-options --log-tcp-options
> $IPTABLES -A FORWARD -m state --state INVALID -j DROP
> ### default log rule
> $IPTABLES -A FORWARD -i !lo -j LOG --log-prefix "DROP " --log-ip-options
--log-tcp-options
>
>
> After enabling the configuration and rebooting, I am able to login and
use the laptop in text mode, but not able to login in graphic mode.
>
> Would you be able to tell me how to tweak the script so that it will
allow me to login in graphic mode as well?
>
Look at the logs generated by the iptables and see if there is any traffic
being dropped.  Are you connecting remotely or this is a local console? If
remote, you may need to make sure xorg is tunneling through SSH
>
> Regards,
> Andrei.
>
William
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  1 21:46:35 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 17:46:35 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120601214635.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 04:21:23PM -0400, Andrei Dimitrief-Jianu wrote:
> I am using the following script to configure iptables on a laptop running
> Fedora 16.
> 
> 
> #!/bin/bash
> IPTABLES=/sbin/iptables
> MODPROBE=/sbin/modprobe
> 
> ### flush existing rules and set chain policy to DROP
> echo "[+] Flushing existing iptables rules..."
> $IPTABLES -F
> $IPTABLES -F -t nat
> $IPTABLES -X
> $IPTABLES -P INPUT DROP
> $IPTABLES -P OUTPUT DROP
> $IPTABLES -P FORWARD DROP

Personally I highly recommend shorewall as a way cleaner way to manage
iptables than doing it manually.  It just makes things so much simpler
to deal with and easier to get an overview of.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  1 21:55:51 2012
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 17:55:51 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <20120601214635.GN32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120601214635.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20120601215551.GA8353@watson-wilson.ca>

On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 05:46:35PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>Personally I highly recommend shorewall as a way cleaner way to manage
>iptables than doing it manually.  It just makes things so much simpler
>to deal with and easier to get an overview of.

QFT

With a little work I was even able to manage Shorewall with Cfengine
including check live rules.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  2 00:11:07 2012
From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 20:11:07 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <20120601214635.GN32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120601214635.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CAP30j16Qc9TTqu_1TsyekHOunYtzs+UT_-0V3m6pvLCfMP-xVg@mail.gmail.com>

> Personally I highly recommend shorewall as a way cleaner way to manage
> iptables than doing it manually. ?It just makes things so much simpler
> to deal with and easier to get an overview of.

I can't recommend shorewall enough.  It makes creating a very complex
firewall into an easy task.

Even though it was designed to be placed on a routing firewall, it
works quite well on a single-homed host too.  I'd be happy to share
some basic configs if it would help get someone up and running.

Thanks
-Ben
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Walton <bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

Take the risk of thinking for yourself. ?Much more happiness,
truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  2 00:12:39 2012
From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 20:12:39 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <20120601215551.GA8353-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120601214635.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<20120601215551.GA8353@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <CAP30j15hekGHWov60FfYpYT+aNVoe7B9FNCGk6tXRyrgxku+hA@mail.gmail.com>

> With a little work I was even able to manage Shorewall with Cfengine
> including check live rules.

I build my files dynamically based on lookups from dyndns services and
then distribute the results with cfengine.  This lets clients roam
around and have the access to various systems open up for them by
simply updating a dynamic registration.  It's pretty slick.

Thanks
-Ben
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Walton <bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

Take the risk of thinking for yourself. ?Much more happiness,
truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  2 02:58:45 2012
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 22:58:45 -0400
Subject: How to partition/format USB key into weird setup?
Message-ID: <20120602025845.GA13798@waltdnes.org>

  I've got USB automounting working under mdev with linux and FAT file
systems.  There's one thing I haven't been able to test, namely the
pathological setup where a USB key is formatted as one large FAT
partition, with no standard partition table.  I've heard of these things
but have never seen one.  Is it possible to generate it under linux for
testing?

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org>
--
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From andrei.dimitrief.jianu-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  2 18:45:14 2012
From: andrei.dimitrief.jianu-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrei Dimitrief-Jianu)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 14:45:14 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <CAP30j15hekGHWov60FfYpYT+aNVoe7B9FNCGk6tXRyrgxku+hA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120601214635.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<20120601215551.GA8353@watson-wilson.ca>
	<CAP30j15hekGHWov60FfYpYT+aNVoe7B9FNCGk6tXRyrgxku+hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFNMnyYwPTr639BHLoPaaaAkhk0cFaeHatohEMLwvuNprBzzyg@mail.gmail.com>

@William

Definitely a good idea to break the LOG rule into two (and to log the local
traffic as well)... the log files revealed the ports that need to be
opened.

DROP LOCAL IN=lo OUT= MAC=00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:08:00
SRC=127.0.0.1 DST=127.0.0.1 LEN=65 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=64 ID=60569 DF
PROTO=UDP SPT=50260 DPT=53 LEN=45
DROP LOCAL IN= OUT=lo SRC=127.0.0.1 DST=127.0.0.1 LEN=60 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00
TTL=64 ID=7439 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=35069 DPT=631 WINDOW=32792 RES=0x00 SYN
URGP=0 OPT (0204400C0402080AFFFC83160000000001030307)
DROP LOCAL IN= OUT=lo SRC=127.0.0.1 DST=127.0.0.1 LEN=60 TOS=0x10 PREC=0x00
TTL=64 ID=35891 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=55455 DPT=4713 WINDOW=32792 RES=0x00 SYN
URGP=0 OPT (0204400C0402080AFFFC24AD0000000001030307)

The default policy for the chains is set to DROP, so I had to let the
packets through:

$IPTABLES -A INPUT -i lo -p udp --dport 53 -s 127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j
ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A INPUT -i lo -p tcp --dport 631 --syn -m state --state NEW -s
127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A INPUT -i lo -p tcp --dport 4713 --syn -m state --state NEW -s
127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j ACCEPT

$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p udp --dport 53 -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -o lo -p tcp --dport 631 --syn -m state --state NEW -s
127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j ACCEPT
$IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -o lo -p tcp --dport 4713 --syn -m state --state NEW -s
127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j ACCEPT

The login was local, and in order to be as restrictive as possible I allow
only packets from 127.0.0.1.

@Lennart, @Neil, @Ben

I will look into using shorewall and cfengine as well. However, I prefer
the raw tools.

Thanks!



On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Ben Walton <bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> > With a little work I was even able to manage Shorewall with Cfengine
> > including check live rules.
>
> I build my files dynamically based on lookups from dyndns services and
> then distribute the results with cfengine.  This lets clients roam
> around and have the access to various systems open up for them by
> simply updating a dynamic registration.  It's pretty slick.
>
> Thanks
> -Ben
> --
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ben Walton <bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>
> Take the risk of thinking for yourself.  Much more happiness,
> truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.
>
> -Christopher Hitchens
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 02:34:01 2012
From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 22:34:01 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <20120601214635.GN32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120601214635.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20120603023401.GV9073@adb.ca>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Personally I highly recommend shorewall as a way cleaner way to manage
> iptables than doing it manually.  It just makes things so much simpler
> to deal with and easier to get an overview of.

I got my baptism-by-fire with the 800-line iptables ruleset from hell
on one of the routers at a previous job, so a basic ruleset really
doesn't have enough horror to scare me anymore.

My previous boss used to call me a complete nobody: "Nobody understands
iptables", or another time "Nobody uses the command line anymore".

OpenBSD firewall rules are fun too; I told the box to "pass out quick on
$cheap_gin", though actually cheap_gin was a macro for "rl0 tagged OK
keep state".

But the tech world is big enough that having general information and
a grasp of a high-level tool in a lot of areas is really all there's
time for; we have to pick and choose our battles going in under the
hood in specific areas and finding out more than we ever wanted to
know about some particular topic.  And in most places I'd rather read
or write a bit of config that's short and sweet and to the point and
not have to parse through reams of boilerplate to see what bits are
unusual this time.

-- 
Anthony de Boer
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 05:03:27 2012
From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 01:03:27 -0400
Subject: I need to find a way to make image file of hard disk booting linux
 mint 9 lxde on all in one imac g5 powerpc
Message-ID: <CAAu3GP3PrQoY-Xc56DSbnyuGpt-nfgd+no8z0ChqKkHuhOnBKg@mail.gmail.com>

All I have achieved so far is a bootable clone of the hard disk.  On my
Kalyway Tiger Hackintosh I used copycatX 5 to clone the source Hard Disk of
80 GB onto a 320 GB.  However, it creates tons of free space.  Perhaps
gparted can resize the home partition to consume all available free space.

Copycatx 5 creates the image file the same size of the hard disk but is
unable to mount it so it cannot be deployed.

Disk Utility creates a dmg image file, 50% the size of the 80GB HD.
However, it cannot restore it to another HD because it cannot mount the
image.

Acronis does NOT see the hard disk
Terabyte's image for Linux can't image the HD
G4l cant image the HD

Any ideas?



-- 
http://drpcdr.ca
http://jobcircle.ca
416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 11:39:10 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 07:39:10 -0400
Subject: I need to find a way to make image file of hard disk
 booting linux mint 9 lxde on all in one imac g5 powerpc
In-Reply-To: <CAAu3GP3PrQoY-Xc56DSbnyuGpt-nfgd+no8z0ChqKkHuhOnBKg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAAu3GP3PrQoY-Xc56DSbnyuGpt-nfgd+no8z0ChqKkHuhOnBKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCB4CDE.8000101@rogers.com>

charles chris wrote:
> All I have achieved so far is a bootable clone of the hard disk.  On 
> my Kalyway Tiger Hackintosh I used copycatX 5 to clone the source Hard 
> Disk of 80 GB onto a 320 GB.  However, it creates tons of free space.  
> Perhaps gparted can resize the home partition to consume all available 
> free space.

I had the same issue when I put a larger drive in my ThinkPad last 
year.  However, since I used LVM, I was able to use that space by 
creating another volume and adding it to my system.

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 12:21:44 2012
From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 08:21:44 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <CAFNMnyYwPTr639BHLoPaaaAkhk0cFaeHatohEMLwvuNprBzzyg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120601214635.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<20120601215551.GA8353@watson-wilson.ca>
	<CAP30j15hekGHWov60FfYpYT+aNVoe7B9FNCGk6tXRyrgxku+hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFNMnyYwPTr639BHLoPaaaAkhk0cFaeHatohEMLwvuNprBzzyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP30j17WKVm-rBDA-jMjHaWs71v4yGycDBLHeqxJU+qqhnYGpA@mail.gmail.com>

> I will look into using shorewall and cfengine as well. However, I prefer the
> raw tools.

I'm with Anthony on this one.  Understanding the raw rules is great
and you should definitely have some familiarity with them.  I don't
have the time to manually write all of the complex rules I need
though, so shorewall is a good compromise for me.  As a learning tool,
you could use the compile mode that shorewall offers to inspect the
raw iptables commands that are generated.  And when using shorewall as
a live firewall, iptables -L (or shorewall show) give you a nicely
segrated rule set that is easy to digest as well.  (It makes heavy use
of _tables_ which most manual firewall configs don't.)

Anyway, don't give up on learning the raw rules, just make sure you
use your time wisely. :)

Thanks
-Ben
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Walton <bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

Take the risk of thinking for yourself. ?Much more happiness,
truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 12:51:38 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 08:51:38 -0400
Subject: I need to find a way to make image file of hard disk
 booting linux mint 9 lxde on all in one imac g5 powerpc
In-Reply-To: <4FCB4CDE.8000101-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAAu3GP3PrQoY-Xc56DSbnyuGpt-nfgd+no8z0ChqKkHuhOnBKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FCB4CDE.8000101@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+5qE-V1c3RJgX6nqwgWpm72c6nbY-21qrUwFdcYD6Af2w@mail.gmail.com>

Charles,

On 3 June 2012 07:39, James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> charles chris wrote:
>>
>> All I have achieved so far is a bootable clone of the hard disk. ?On my
>> Kalyway Tiger Hackintosh I used copycatX 5 to clone the source Hard Disk of
>> 80 GB onto a 320 GB. ?However, it creates tons of free space. ?Perhaps
>> gparted can resize the home partition to consume all available free space.
>
Correct, use gparted or fdisk to extend the partition across the whole
hard disk and then use resize2fs to extend the filesystem to fill up
the partition
>
> I had the same issue when I put a larger drive in my ThinkPad last year.
> ?However, since I used LVM, I was able to use that space by creating another
> volume and adding it to my system.
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 14:25:51 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:25:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: I need to find a way to make image file of hard disk
 booting linux mint 9 lxde on all in one imac g5 powerpc
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+5qE-V1c3RJgX6nqwgWpm72c6nbY-21qrUwFdcYD6Af2w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAAu3GP3PrQoY-Xc56DSbnyuGpt-nfgd+no8z0ChqKkHuhOnBKg@mail.gmail.com> <4FCB4CDE.8000101@rogers.com> <CAE9rU+5qE-V1c3RJgX6nqwgWpm72c6nbY-21qrUwFdcYD6Af2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206031003250.23294@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: William Muriithi <william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| On 3 June 2012 07:39, James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
| > charles chris wrote:
| >>
| >> All I have achieved so far is a bootable clone of the hard disk. ?On my
| >> Kalyway Tiger Hackintosh I used copycatX 5 to clone the source Hard Disk of
| >> 80 GB onto a 320 GB. ?However, it creates tons of free space. ?Perhaps
| >> gparted can resize the home partition to consume all available free space.
| >
| Correct, use gparted or fdisk to extend the partition across the whole
| hard disk and then use resize2fs to extend the filesystem to fill up
| the partition

This advice isn't necessarily useful for Charles.

He's trying to use a Hackintosh (PC of some sort pretending to be an
Intel-based Mac, running some version of OSX with patches) to clone
and adjust a disk for a PowerPC-based Mac so that the PPC Mac can run
its own OSX *and* some Linux.

Charles' goal doesn't sound unreasonable, but it requires knowledge
that I don't have.  I suspect most TLUGers are in the same boat:

- Although many of us have been forced to learn how to make Windows
  and Linux co-exist, fewer of us have had to do so with a OSX.
  If you paid for OSX, usually you actually want it (unlike Windows)

- PowerPC is obsolete enough that it is over the horizon for most of
  us.  Both in the Mac world and in the Linux world.

I don't even know how PPC Macs partition disks.  I doubt that fdisk is
at all relevant.  I don't know about gparted.

Pure guesswork: if the newer and larger disk and filesystem work in
the PPC Mac (i.e. OSX boots and sees all that extra filesystem space)
then do everything from there on the PPC.  In particular, follow some
PPC Linux cookbook to adjust the partitioning and do the installation.

Justification for that suggestion: cross platform incompatibility is
all too common, and you are crossing a heck of a lot of platforms:

- PPC vs x86

- Linux vs OSX

- differing OSX versions

- differing Linux versions

- generic PC hardware trying to run OSX

Is there no way to have both disk drives connected to the PPC Mac at
the same time?  Either temporarily or permanently? That might make
some things easier.

| > I had the same issue when I put a larger drive in my ThinkPad last year.
| > ?However, since I used LVM, I was able to use that space by creating another
| > volume and adding it to my system.

I've played enough with Windows / Linux coexistence that I consider
that problem easy in theory.  Practice often turns up surprises.

From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 15:25:27 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:25:27 -0400
Subject: How to partition/format USB key into weird setup?
In-Reply-To: <20120602025845.GA13798-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120602025845.GA13798@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <20120603152527.GA9686@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 10:58:45PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote:
>   I've got USB automounting working under mdev with linux and FAT file
> systems.  There's one thing I haven't been able to test, namely the
> pathological setup where a USB key is formatted as one large FAT
> partition, with no standard partition table.  I've heard of these things
> but have never seen one.  Is it possible to generate it under linux for
> testing?

mkdosfs /dev/sdX

-- 
William
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 15:33:26 2012
From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:33:26 -0400
Subject: I need to find a way to make image file of hard disk
 booting linux mint 9 lxde on all in one imac g5 powerpc
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206031003250.23294-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAAu3GP3PrQoY-Xc56DSbnyuGpt-nfgd+no8z0ChqKkHuhOnBKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FCB4CDE.8000101@rogers.com>
	<CAE9rU+5qE-V1c3RJgX6nqwgWpm72c6nbY-21qrUwFdcYD6Af2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206031003250.23294@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAAu3GP0n1-sZvgyYi4rQ3H88yrayLhQcy7H6cijc1xK00YS0UQ@mail.gmail.com>

OK Let me clarify things.
First I installed Debian via the business card boot CD onto an iMac G5 (all
in one 20 inch Apple computer, late 2005)

http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/6.0.5/powerpc/iso-cd/debian-6.0.5-powerpc-businesscard.iso

at the boot prompt I typed:
expert64 url=mintppc.org

This installed Debian with a Linux Mint 9 LXDE desktop via Ethernet
Internet connection. Depending on your Internet connection speed, this is a
lengthy process, I would prefer NOT to repeat every time I repair an iMac
G5.

Therefore, I would like to image the HD for rapid deployment like I do with
the images I created for Intel based systems.

BTW:  Terabytes image for Linux software can be used by changing the date
in the BIOS to the same month and year the image files were created (April
2012).

I got Iceweasel to play YouTube videos by installing the add-on,
FlashVideoReplacer then tweaking it to automatically play video in
standalone mode via gnome media player.

Unlike my X86 Linux Mint 9 LXDE image, I am unable to install many aps like
Damnvid, K9copy, DVDrip, etc.

I cloned the HD in my hackintosh via copycatX 5 running on Kalyway Tiger
10.4
The 80GB HD was cloned onto a 320GB HD.  The clone booted on the iMac G5.
Gparted is unable to resize the home partition to use up the 200+ GB of
free space left on the clone HD.
I will try resize2fs and fdisk.

The following is the partitioning scheme of the cloned HD:

/dev/sda1 unknown 31.50 KB I believe this is a special Apple thing
/dev/sda2 hfs bootstrap Size: 977.00 KB Used: 208.00 KB Unused: 769.00 KB
/dev/sda3 ext3 mount point: / size: 6.53 GB Used: 3.17 GB Unused: 3.35 GB
/dev/sda4 linux-swap Size: 1.39 GB
/dev/sda5 ext3 mount point: /home size: 66.59 GB used: 1.28 GB Unused:
65.31 GB
Unallocated size: 223.59 GB

The iMac G5 system:
PowerPC PPC970FX, altivec supported (1800.00MHz)
Debian GNU/Linux 6.05

In Iceweasel click tools >Add-ons > search for FlashVideoReplacer
Install the add-on then restart Iceweasel

Click FlashVideoReplacer icon (top right corner)
Change preferred method to standalone
Check mark Launch player automatically >Close
Goto youtube and play a video
The video will play in gnome media player automatically

I had to add my user account to the Sudoer's list:

su
echo 'username ALL=(ALL) ALL' >> /etc/sudoers.
 Why is powerpc so damn hard to image?


On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 10:25 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> | From: William Muriithi <william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>
> | On 3 June 2012 07:39, James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> | > charles chris wrote:
> | >>
> | >> All I have achieved so far is a bootable clone of the hard disk.  On
> my
> | >> Kalyway Tiger Hackintosh I used copycatX 5 to clone the source Hard
> Disk of
> | >> 80 GB onto a 320 GB.  However, it creates tons of free space.  Perhaps
> | >> gparted can resize the home partition to consume all available free
> space.
> | >
> | Correct, use gparted or fdisk to extend the partition across the whole
> | hard disk and then use resize2fs to extend the filesystem to fill up
> | the partition
>
> This advice isn't necessarily useful for Charles.
>
> He's trying to use a Hackintosh (PC of some sort pretending to be an
> Intel-based Mac, running some version of OSX with patches) to clone
> and adjust a disk for a PowerPC-based Mac so that the PPC Mac can run
> its own OSX *and* some Linux.
>
> Charles' goal doesn't sound unreasonable, but it requires knowledge
> that I don't have.  I suspect most TLUGers are in the same boat:
>
> - Although many of us have been forced to learn how to make Windows
>  and Linux co-exist, fewer of us have had to do so with a OSX.
>  If you paid for OSX, usually you actually want it (unlike Windows)
>
> - PowerPC is obsolete enough that it is over the horizon for most of
>  us.  Both in the Mac world and in the Linux world.
>
> I don't even know how PPC Macs partition disks.  I doubt that fdisk is
> at all relevant.  I don't know about gparted.
>
> Pure guesswork: if the newer and larger disk and filesystem work in
> the PPC Mac (i.e. OSX boots and sees all that extra filesystem space)
> then do everything from there on the PPC.  In particular, follow some
> PPC Linux cookbook to adjust the partitioning and do the installation.
>
> Justification for that suggestion: cross platform incompatibility is
> all too common, and you are crossing a heck of a lot of platforms:
>
> - PPC vs x86
>
> - Linux vs OSX
>
> - differing OSX versions
>
> - differing Linux versions
>
> - generic PC hardware trying to run OSX
>
> Is there no way to have both disk drives connected to the PPC Mac at
> the same time?  Either temporarily or permanently? That might make
> some things easier.
>
> | > I had the same issue when I put a larger drive in my ThinkPad last
> year.
> | >  However, since I used LVM, I was able to use that space by creating
> another
> | > volume and adding it to my system.
>
> I've played enough with Windows / Linux coexistence that I consider
> that problem easy in theory.  Practice often turns up surprises.




-- 
http://drpcdr.ca
http://jobcircle.ca
416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327
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From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 17:06:57 2012
From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:06:57 -0400
Subject: Linux floor plans: solved
Message-ID: <CAGwUD5sBm-Okuvm932JAcauj4b+13h91fXqRRFDTGw3+SovB1g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

How cool is it to be able to make a floorplan, and move your furniture
around on it?  Pretty cool.  Especially if your furniture is heavy.
Much better to move that stuff on paper, rather than by force.  My
previous attempts to make floorplans in Linux revolved around GIMP and
many layers.  it wasn't ideal.

I had reason to want to make another floorplan recently and The Fine
Search lead me to SweetHome3D

http://www.sweethome3d.com/index.jsp

This. Is. Cool.

Floorplans? Check.
Furniture? Check.
3D aerial view?  Check.  Woo woo!
3D virtual walk through?  Oh yeah!
Custom colours, paint and flooring?  Yup.

Pretty awesome.  I'm only just scratching the surface with this thing
and I can see that it would be indispensable for a designer or
decorator.

GPL.  java.  Runs on Linux, and other stuff.

Best regards,
Richard
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun  3 18:02:29 2012
From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:02:29 -0400
Subject: Linux floor plans: solved
In-Reply-To: <CAGwUD5sBm-Okuvm932JAcauj4b+13h91fXqRRFDTGw3+SovB1g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGwUD5sBm-Okuvm932JAcauj4b+13h91fXqRRFDTGw3+SovB1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGvW9WdWzC1DCfVLzpUX=J0re4Lc7HONUnL=mvnj9pV6J7wfnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Richard Weait <richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Pretty awesome. ?I'm only just scratching the surface with this thing
> and I can see that it would be indispensable for a designer or
> decorator.

Thanks, Richard. Perfect timing since we're preparing to move to a
different unit and have to figure out where our furniture will go.

Mike
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  4 17:57:14 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:57:14 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <20120603023401.GV9073-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120601214635.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <20120603023401.GV9073@adb.ca>
Message-ID: <20120604175714.GO32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sat, Jun 02, 2012 at 10:34:01PM -0400, Anthony de Boer wrote:
> I got my baptism-by-fire with the 800-line iptables ruleset from hell
> on one of the routers at a previous job, so a basic ruleset really
> doesn't have enough horror to scare me anymore.
> 
> My previous boss used to call me a complete nobody: "Nobody understands
> iptables", or another time "Nobody uses the command line anymore".
> 
> OpenBSD firewall rules are fun too; I told the box to "pass out quick on
> $cheap_gin", though actually cheap_gin was a macro for "rl0 tagged OK
> keep state".
> 
> But the tech world is big enough that having general information and
> a grasp of a high-level tool in a lot of areas is really all there's
> time for; we have to pick and choose our battles going in under the
> hood in specific areas and finding out more than we ever wanted to
> know about some particular topic.  And in most places I'd rather read
> or write a bit of config that's short and sweet and to the point and
> not have to parse through reams of boilerplate to see what bits are
> unusual this time.

I know how iptables works, and I can look at the results of what shorewall
does to make sure it is what I wanted, but I sure do appreciate not
having to do all that boring work myself.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  4 17:58:01 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:58:01 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <CAFNMnyYwPTr639BHLoPaaaAkhk0cFaeHatohEMLwvuNprBzzyg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120601214635.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <20120601215551.GA8353@watson-wilson.ca>
 <CAP30j15hekGHWov60FfYpYT+aNVoe7B9FNCGk6tXRyrgxku+hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNMnyYwPTr639BHLoPaaaAkhk0cFaeHatohEMLwvuNprBzzyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120604175801.GP32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sat, Jun 02, 2012 at 02:45:14PM -0400, Andrei Dimitrief-Jianu wrote:
> @William
> 
> Definitely a good idea to break the LOG rule into two (and to log the local
> traffic as well)... the log files revealed the ports that need to be
> opened.
> 
> DROP LOCAL IN=lo OUT= MAC=00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:08:00
> SRC=127.0.0.1 DST=127.0.0.1 LEN=65 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=64 ID=60569 DF
> PROTO=UDP SPT=50260 DPT=53 LEN=45
> DROP LOCAL IN= OUT=lo SRC=127.0.0.1 DST=127.0.0.1 LEN=60 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00
> TTL=64 ID=7439 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=35069 DPT=631 WINDOW=32792 RES=0x00 SYN
> URGP=0 OPT (0204400C0402080AFFFC83160000000001030307)
> DROP LOCAL IN= OUT=lo SRC=127.0.0.1 DST=127.0.0.1 LEN=60 TOS=0x10 PREC=0x00
> TTL=64 ID=35891 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=55455 DPT=4713 WINDOW=32792 RES=0x00 SYN
> URGP=0 OPT (0204400C0402080AFFFC24AD0000000001030307)
> 
> The default policy for the chains is set to DROP, so I had to let the
> packets through:
> 
> $IPTABLES -A INPUT -i lo -p udp --dport 53 -s 127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j
> ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A INPUT -i lo -p tcp --dport 631 --syn -m state --state NEW -s
> 127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A INPUT -i lo -p tcp --dport 4713 --syn -m state --state NEW -s
> 127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j ACCEPT
> 
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -p udp --dport 53 -m state --state NEW -j ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -o lo -p tcp --dport 631 --syn -m state --state NEW -s
> 127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j ACCEPT
> $IPTABLES -A OUTPUT -o lo -p tcp --dport 4713 --syn -m state --state NEW -s
> 127.0.0.1 -d 127.0.0.1 -j ACCEPT
> 
> The login was local, and in order to be as restrictive as possible I allow
> only packets from 127.0.0.1.
> 
> @Lennart, @Neil, @Ben
> 
> I will look into using shorewall and cfengine as well. However, I prefer
> the raw tools.

You write all your binaries using a hexeditor?

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  4 17:59:20 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:59:20 -0400
Subject: Linux floor plans: solved
In-Reply-To: <CAGwUD5sBm-Okuvm932JAcauj4b+13h91fXqRRFDTGw3+SovB1g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGwUD5sBm-Okuvm932JAcauj4b+13h91fXqRRFDTGw3+SovB1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120604175920.GQ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jun 03, 2012 at 01:06:57PM -0400, Richard Weait wrote:
> Dear All,
> 
> How cool is it to be able to make a floorplan, and move your furniture
> around on it?  Pretty cool.  Especially if your furniture is heavy.
> Much better to move that stuff on paper, rather than by force.  My
> previous attempts to make floorplans in Linux revolved around GIMP and
> many layers.  it wasn't ideal.
> 
> I had reason to want to make another floorplan recently and The Fine
> Search lead me to SweetHome3D
> 
> http://www.sweethome3d.com/index.jsp
> 
> This. Is. Cool.
> 
> Floorplans? Check.
> Furniture? Check.
> 3D aerial view?  Check.  Woo woo!
> 3D virtual walk through?  Oh yeah!
> Custom colours, paint and flooring?  Yup.
> 
> Pretty awesome.  I'm only just scratching the surface with this thing
> and I can see that it would be indispensable for a designer or
> decorator.
> 
> GPL.  java.  Runs on Linux, and other stuff.

Oh man, I was interested right until the end.  You had to go mention
the 4 letter j word.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  4 18:28:20 2012
From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 14:28:20 -0400
Subject: Linux floor plans: solved
In-Reply-To: <20120604175920.GQ32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGwUD5sBm-Okuvm932JAcauj4b+13h91fXqRRFDTGw3+SovB1g@mail.gmail.com>
    <20120604175920.GQ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <3a6245f73eb69c599d46567f55c88549.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>



>>
>> GPL.  java.  Runs on Linux, and other stuff.
>
> Oh man, I was interested right until the end.  You had to go mention
> the 4 letter j word.

There are some very nice Java programs: ImageJ and GPSPrune, for example.
And they run on multiple platforms. Like Tcl/Tk.. (ducks and runs).

-- 
Peter Hiscocks
Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto
http://www.syscompdesign.com
USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator
647-839-0325

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From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  4 19:14:36 2012
From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:14:36 -0400
Subject: Linux floor plans: solved
In-Reply-To: <20120604175920.GQ32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGwUD5sBm-Okuvm932JAcauj4b+13h91fXqRRFDTGw3+SovB1g@mail.gmail.com> <20120604175920.GQ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP74AF5B331054B5AA4A7F7EAB0F0@phx.gbl>



On 04/06/12 01:59 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> GPL.  java.  Runs on Linux, and other stuff.
> Oh man, I was interested right until the end.  You had to go mention
> the 4 letter j word.
>
"stuff"?  :P

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  4 19:51:50 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:51:50 -0400
Subject: Linux floor plans: solved
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP74AF5B331054B5AA4A7F7EAB0F0-MsuGFMq8XAE@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGwUD5sBm-Okuvm932JAcauj4b+13h91fXqRRFDTGw3+SovB1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120604175920.GQ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <BLU0-SMTP74AF5B331054B5AA4A7F7EAB0F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20120604195150.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 03:14:36PM -0400, Gary Layng wrote:
> On 04/06/12 01:59 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> >GPL.  java.  Runs on Linux, and other stuff.
> >Oh man, I was interested right until the end.  You had to go mention
> >the 4 letter j word.
> >
> "stuff"?  :P

That isn't 4 letters long and does not contain a j.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun  4 19:55:05 2012
From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:55:05 -0400
Subject: Linux floor plans: solved
In-Reply-To: <20120604195150.GR32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGwUD5sBm-Okuvm932JAcauj4b+13h91fXqRRFDTGw3+SovB1g@mail.gmail.com> <20120604175920.GQ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <BLU0-SMTP74AF5B331054B5AA4A7F7EAB0F0@phx.gbl> <20120604195150.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP297D73F15255DA0E91AD7AAB0F0@phx.gbl>



On 04/06/12 03:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 03:14:36PM -0400, Gary Layng wrote:
>> On 04/06/12 01:59 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>>> GPL.  java.  Runs on Linux, and other stuff.
>>> Oh man, I was interested right until the end.  You had to go mention
>>> the 4 letter j word.
>>>
>> "stuff"?  :P
> That isn't 4 letters long and does not contain a j.
>
But it is the word at the end.

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't

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From chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  7 10:44:19 2012
From: chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (David Chipman)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 10:44:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
Message-ID: <1787872255.82773.1339065859301.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed84.prod>

LinkedIn
------------



I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- David

David Chipman
Student at Humber College
Canada

Confirm that you know David Chipman:
https://www.linkedin.com/e/74qdsc-h35p8lpd-11/isd/7399205209/_3lg1kQA/?hs=false&tok=2eeVblKcv4yBg1

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(c) 2012 LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA.

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From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  7 21:18:37 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:18:37 -0400
Subject: Love
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF7qh0a8F18gF07XLC0wfx7dtLJt59L1y7KbboaVjVUppA@mail.gmail.com>

https://love2d.org/

-- 
Thomas Milne
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  7 21:41:57 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:41:57 -0400
Subject: Love
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF7qh0a8F18gF07XLC0wfx7dtLJt59L1y7KbboaVjVUppA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7qh0a8F18gF07XLC0wfx7dtLJt59L1y7KbboaVjVUppA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+7+eQWJwVbEJdxJFjXY_0OXpEe=Ft4qmQcSnOP=sLP_yw@mail.gmail.com>

Thomas

May be you should change your email account password?  Look like it
has been compromised.  Have not clicked on the link, so may be wrong



On 7 June 2012 17:18, Thomas Milne <thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> https://love2d.org/
>
> --
> Thomas Milne
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  7 21:55:07 2012
From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:55:07 -0400
Subject: Love
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF7qh0a8F18gF07XLC0wfx7dtLJt59L1y7KbboaVjVUppA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7qh0a8F18gF07XLC0wfx7dtLJt59L1y7KbboaVjVUppA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06F91B86-0CFE-49A3-8F5F-941987C34F75@mylesbraithwaite.com>

Love is a game engine, it's a safe link.

Myles Braithwaite (via iPhone)

On 2012-06-07, at 5:18 PM, Thomas Milne <thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> https://love2d.org/
> 
> -- 
> Thomas Milne
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  7 21:59:50 2012
From: gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:59:50 -0400
Subject: Love
In-Reply-To: <06F91B86-0CFE-49A3-8F5F-941987C34F75-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7qh0a8F18gF07XLC0wfx7dtLJt59L1y7KbboaVjVUppA@mail.gmail.com>
	<06F91B86-0CFE-49A3-8F5F-941987C34F75@mylesbraithwaite.com>
Message-ID: <20120607175950.065d5762@herring_sucker.example.org>

On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:55:07 -0400
Myles Braithwaite <me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Love is a game engine, it's a safe link.
> 
> Myles Braithwaite (via iPhone)
> 
> On 2012-06-07, at 5:18 PM, Thomas Milne
> <thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
> > https://love2d.org/

A game? I thought he was lonely.


-- 
Glen Strom
gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org
gstrom57-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun  7 22:12:36 2012
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 18:12:36 -0400
Subject: Love
In-Reply-To: <20120607175950.065d5762@herring_sucker.example.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7qh0a8F18gF07XLC0wfx7dtLJt59L1y7KbboaVjVUppA@mail.gmail.com>
	<06F91B86-0CFE-49A3-8F5F-941987C34F75@mylesbraithwaite.com>
	<20120607175950.065d5762@herring_sucker.example.org>
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5We-Wap3JvZmboenFRYHaOxitadDNugrfEzS=MO=H+iBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Glen Strom <gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:55:07 -0400
> Myles Braithwaite <me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> Love is a game engine, it's a safe link.
>>
>> Myles Braithwaite (via iPhone)
>>
>> On 2012-06-07, at 5:18 PM, Thomas Milne
>> <thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>> > https://love2d.org/
>
> A game? I thought he was lonely.

Well, since it's a Lua thing, and with the possibility of Lua being
deemed "security threat" due to the recent association with the Flame
'virus' <http://redtape.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/30/11962850-was-flame-virus-written-by-cyberwarriors-or-gamers?lite>,
I guess there's some association plausible with 'threat'.

But Love2D is really a framework for writing games, albeit one with
perhaps not the most intuitive looking name.
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 15:51:25 2012
From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 11:51:25 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAJfQhuK6WN=_wcWXWwP+10LL1S=Qcpjc7-C4Cm8E6L+H_xbu-w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo@web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <CAJfQhuK6WN=_wcWXWwP+10LL1S=Qcpjc7-C4Cm8E6L+H_xbu-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD21F7D.6090505@alteeve.ca>

I personally *only* use APC, but I make my living off of my equipment. 
My husband uses Cyberpower for his computer and he's been very happy 
with it. We live in Oakville, which has more black/brown-outs than when 
I lived in rural New Brunswick, so both of our UPSes have been heavily 
taxed and both have done fine.

On 06/08/2012 11:39 AM, Aaron Doucette wrote:
> I know APC is _the_ name in UPSs, but I have found good value and
> quality in my CyberPower 1500AVR. Wouldn't hesitate to recommend, and
> they have their own linux software (as well as it working with NUT, last
> I checked).
>
> aaron
>
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 11:30 AM, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org
> <mailto:opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>> wrote:
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     My power supply can normally handle flickering of lights.
>     But, during yesterday storm my light blinked, and my machine
>     hanged.  So, I'm looking for UPS for 20 seconds at 300W.
>     Browsing local stores, practically any UPS will do.
>
>     Is there any brand you'd not recommend?
>     --
>
>     William
>
>     --
>     The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>     TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>     How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>


-- 
Digimer
Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.com
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 15:59:46 2012
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 11:59:46 -0400
Subject: Virtual Server Vendor Recommendations?
Message-ID: <20120608155946.GA32347@yam.witteman.ca>

I currently serve web pages and email from my home server.  The traffic
seems quite low, but I never check how low, because it never mattered.

Now, I am looking to move this server offsite, preferably in Canada (for
latency/legal reasons (hosting in the US (the land of the Free TM) is
not acceptable)).  I'd rather not spend much money, but I far prefer
full control over the machine, but not necessarily the hardware.  To me
that says renting a Virtual Private Server somewhere.

So, how do I estimate traffic, RAM, CPU usage so I know if I need a fast
machine?

Also, who do you recommend as a vendor of VPSs?

Thanks!
-- 

yours,

William

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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 15:30:25 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:30:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Which UPS?
Message-ID: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo@web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

My power supply can normally handle flickering of lights.
But, during yesterday storm my light blinked, and my machine
hanged.? So, I'm looking for UPS for 20 seconds at 300W.
Browsing local stores, practically any UPS will do.

Is there any brand you'd not recommend?
-- 

William

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 16:05:11 2012
From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 12:05:11 -0400
Subject: Virtual Server Vendor Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <20120608155946.GA32347-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608155946.GA32347@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <4FD222B7.4030409@alteeve.ca>

On 06/08/2012 11:59 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> I currently serve web pages and email from my home server.  The traffic
> seems quite low, but I never check how low, because it never mattered.
>
> Now, I am looking to move this server offsite, preferably in Canada (for
> latency/legal reasons (hosting in the US (the land of the Free TM) is
> not acceptable)).  I'd rather not spend much money, but I far prefer
> full control over the machine, but not necessarily the hardware.  To me
> that says renting a Virtual Private Server somewhere.
>
> So, how do I estimate traffic, RAM, CPU usage so I know if I need a fast
> machine?
>
> Also, who do you recommend as a vendor of VPSs?
>
> Thanks!

When I went searching for a host, I landed on a German company's DC. If 
you want to check the lag, ping alteeve.com. The company is called 
Hetzner (http://www.hetzner.de/en/), came highly rated to me, and I have 
been happy so far. You get bare-iron, remote reboot, etc. It's not full 
featured, but I found it to be good value. I've been running love on 
them for about six months now.

-- 
Digimer
Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.com
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 16:13:05 2012
From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:13:05 -0400
Subject: Virtual Server Vendor Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <20120608155946.GA32347-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608155946.GA32347@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <CAC4o_JK6yqHrCy_DfAh2JF4T8QMo+gE5M53d5g0oSC2e2Q8DCw@mail.gmail.com>

I recommend installing some graphing/monitoring software such as Munin and
letting it do it's thing for a few weeks to build up a decent set of data.
It will graph memory, cpu, network, web activity, etc so that you'll have a
solid idea of what your usage requirements will be.

http://munin-monitoring.org/

-jason

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 11:59 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman <
william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I currently serve web pages and email from my home server.  The traffic
> seems quite low, but I never check how low, because it never mattered.
>
> Now, I am looking to move this server offsite, preferably in Canada (for
> latency/legal reasons (hosting in the US (the land of the Free TM) is
> not acceptable)).  I'd rather not spend much money, but I far prefer
> full control over the machine, but not necessarily the hardware.  To me
> that says renting a Virtual Private Server somewhere.
>
> So, how do I estimate traffic, RAM, CPU usage so I know if I need a fast
> machine?
>
> Also, who do you recommend as a vendor of VPSs?
>
> Thanks!
> --
>
> yours,
>
> William
>
>
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 16:16:43 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:16:43 -0400
Subject: Virtual Server Vendor Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <20120608155946.GA32347-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608155946.GA32347@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+6ivjJgqKWBU8YsM=7-FUtEfDszNGpMJZWVTasLxWTjSA@mail.gmail.com>

William

On 8 June 2012 11:59, William O'Higgins Witteman
<william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I currently serve web pages and email from my home server. ?The traffic
> seems quite low, but I never check how low, because it never mattered.
>
> Now, I am looking to move this server offsite, preferably in Canada (for
> latency/legal reasons (hosting in the US (the land of the Free TM) is
> not acceptable)). ?I'd rather not spend much money, but I far prefer
> full control over the machine, but not necessarily the hardware. ?To me
> that says renting a Virtual Private Server somewhere.
>
> So, how do I estimate traffic, RAM, CPU usage so I know if I need a fast
> machine?

Cacti.  Don't use the default template for memory though, google for
Linux specific one for better accuracy

Cacti offer amazing system visibility I always wonder how people
survive without it


>
> Also, who do you recommend as a vendor of VPSs?
>
> Thanks!
> --
>
> yours,
>
> William
>
William
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 15:40:35 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 11:40:35 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo-ywxMEV4duM8/JfqJOfUXs/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo@web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120608154035.GS32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 08:30:25AM -0700, William Park wrote:
> My power supply can normally handle flickering of lights.
> But, during yesterday storm my light blinked, and my machine
> hanged.? So, I'm looking for UPS for 20 seconds at 300W.
> Browsing local stores, practically any UPS will do.
> 
> Is there any brand you'd not recommend?

If your power supply isn't fancy (ie not high efficiency and not very good
active power factor correction), then pretty much anything should work.

If it is high end and fancy, then your UPS is going to have to be too
unfortunately.

I only have APC UPSs myself, but I am sure there are other good brands too.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 15:39:53 2012
From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Doucette)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 11:39:53 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo-ywxMEV4duM8/JfqJOfUXs/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo@web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJfQhuK6WN=_wcWXWwP+10LL1S=Qcpjc7-C4Cm8E6L+H_xbu-w@mail.gmail.com>

I know APC is _the_ name in UPSs, but I have found good value and quality
in my CyberPower 1500AVR. Wouldn't hesitate to recommend, and they have
their own linux software (as well as it working with NUT, last I checked).

aaron

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 11:30 AM, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> My power supply can normally handle flickering of lights.
> But, during yesterday storm my light blinked, and my machine
> hanged.  So, I'm looking for UPS for 20 seconds at 300W.
> Browsing local stores, practically any UPS will do.
>
> Is there any brand you'd not recommend?
> --
>
> William
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 16:18:21 2012
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:18:21 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo-ywxMEV4duM8/JfqJOfUXs/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo@web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5UU6==m=+SaiTXzn8ax9Lho7koY1iEh7CnFuZtWiR26Dg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 11:30 AM, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> My power supply can normally handle flickering of lights.
> But, during yesterday storm my light blinked, and my machine
> hanged.? So, I'm looking for UPS for 20 seconds at 300W.
> Browsing local stores, practically any UPS will do.
>
> Is there any brand you'd not recommend?

I have had OK results with a TrippLite unit.  APC has definitely got
the marketshare...
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 16:29:06 2012
From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:29:06 -0400
Subject: Virtual Server Vendor Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <4FD222B7.4030409-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608155946.GA32347@yam.witteman.ca>
 <4FD222B7.4030409@alteeve.ca>
Message-ID: <E0C24C34F8D94793B5C30A0825670E1E@mylesbraithwaite.com>

On Friday, 8 June, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Digimer wrote:
> When I went searching for a host, I landed on a German company's DC. If 
> you want to check the lag, ping alteeve.com (http://alteeve.com). The company is called 
> Hetzner (http://www.hetzner.de/en/), came highly rated to me, and I have 
> been happy so far. You get bare-iron, remote reboot, etc. It's not full 
> featured, but I found it to be good value. I've been running love on 
> them for about six months now.


If you are hosting in Germany don't you have to have a Impressum?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressum#Webpages>

-- 
Myles Braithwaite
http://mylesbraithwaite.com | me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 16:34:06 2012
From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 12:34:06 -0400
Subject: Virtual Server Vendor Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <E0C24C34F8D94793B5C30A0825670E1E-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608155946.GA32347@yam.witteman.ca> <4FD222B7.4030409@alteeve.ca> <E0C24C34F8D94793B5C30A0825670E1E@mylesbraithwaite.com>
Message-ID: <4FD2297E.5010209@alteeve.ca>

On 06/08/2012 12:29 PM, Myles Braithwaite wrote:
> On Friday, 8 June, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Digimer wrote:
>> When I went searching for a host, I landed on a German company's DC. If
>> you want to check the lag, ping alteeve.com (http://alteeve.com). The company is called
>> Hetzner (http://www.hetzner.de/en/), came highly rated to me, and I have
>> been happy so far. You get bare-iron, remote reboot, etc. It's not full
>> featured, but I found it to be good value. I've been running love on
>> them for about six months now.
>
>
> If you are hosting in Germany don't you have to have a Impressum?
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressum#Webpages>

I don't think so, but I did have to provide ID (I knew this before 
signing up), so maybe that was it.

-- 
Digimer
Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.com
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 16:42:11 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 12:42:11 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo-ywxMEV4duM8/JfqJOfUXs/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1339169425.93003.YahooMailNeo@web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD22B63.9060806@rogers.com>

William Park wrote:
> Is there any brand you'd not recommend?

You probably want to stay away from the UPS Store.  ;-)

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 16:47:56 2012
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:47:56 -0400
Subject: Virtual Server Vendor Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <4FD222B7.4030409-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608155946.GA32347@yam.witteman.ca>
	<4FD222B7.4030409@alteeve.ca>
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5Xsr=BuBvH0q+zXGHvG4E25+bmzf5G9HBuEfBoYEj7Ltw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Digimer <lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 06/08/2012 11:59 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
>>
>> I currently serve web pages and email from my home server. ?The traffic
>> seems quite low, but I never check how low, because it never mattered.
>>
>> Now, I am looking to move this server offsite, preferably in Canada (for
>> latency/legal reasons (hosting in the US (the land of the Free TM) is
>> not acceptable)). ?I'd rather not spend much money, but I far prefer
>> full control over the machine, but not necessarily the hardware. ?To me
>> that says renting a Virtual Private Server somewhere.
>>
>> So, how do I estimate traffic, RAM, CPU usage so I know if I need a fast
>> machine?
>>
>> Also, who do you recommend as a vendor of VPSs?
>
> When I went searching for a host, I landed on a German company's DC. If you
> want to check the lag, ping alteeve.com. The company is called Hetzner
> (http://www.hetzner.de/en/), came highly rated to me, and I have been happy
> so far. You get bare-iron, remote reboot, etc. It's not full featured, but I
> found it to be good value. I've been running love on them for about six
> months now.

I'd be leery of putting a server in Europe, as I haven't enough
connections to the continent to have a good feel for their data
privacy laws, which I gather are rather more extensive than here.

Going to a not-well-understood jurisdiction might jump you from one
set of perceived legal problems into another.

If I was particularly worried about third party surveillance, I'd be
looking further afield, though I'm not sufficiently paranoid to think
it logical to try to head to a would-be data haven like the
Principality of Sealand
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand>.  Something
similar made an entertaining novel plot in Cryptonomicon, but, the
world NOT working the way Ayn Rand imagined in Atlas Shrugged, those
sorts of things seem not to work well, as noted here
<http://socialmediacollective.org/2012/04/01/why-data-havens-dont-work/>.

But I'm not terribly optimistic that going afield *really* solves the
problems, and the "Why Data Havens Don't Work" essay describes the
shortcomings pretty successfully.

In principle, the 'simplest' jurisdiction ought to be Canada, in that
this introduces no new legal issues that you aren't already party to.
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 16:54:07 2012
From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 12:54:07 -0400
Subject: Virtual Server Vendor Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAFNqd5Xsr=BuBvH0q+zXGHvG4E25+bmzf5G9HBuEfBoYEj7Ltw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608155946.GA32347@yam.witteman.ca> <4FD222B7.4030409@alteeve.ca> <CAFNqd5Xsr=BuBvH0q+zXGHvG4E25+bmzf5G9HBuEfBoYEj7Ltw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD22E2F.1040508@alteeve.ca>

On 06/08/2012 12:47 PM, Christopher Browne wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Digimer<lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org>  wrote:
>> On 06/08/2012 11:59 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
>>>
>>> I currently serve web pages and email from my home server.  The traffic
>>> seems quite low, but I never check how low, because it never mattered.
>>>
>>> Now, I am looking to move this server offsite, preferably in Canada (for
>>> latency/legal reasons (hosting in the US (the land of the Free TM) is
>>> not acceptable)).  I'd rather not spend much money, but I far prefer
>>> full control over the machine, but not necessarily the hardware.  To me
>>> that says renting a Virtual Private Server somewhere.
>>>
>>> So, how do I estimate traffic, RAM, CPU usage so I know if I need a fast
>>> machine?
>>>
>>> Also, who do you recommend as a vendor of VPSs?
>>
>> When I went searching for a host, I landed on a German company's DC. If you
>> want to check the lag, ping alteeve.com. The company is called Hetzner
>> (http://www.hetzner.de/en/), came highly rated to me, and I have been happy
>> so far. You get bare-iron, remote reboot, etc. It's not full featured, but I
>> found it to be good value. I've been running love on them for about six
>> months now.
>
> I'd be leery of putting a server in Europe, as I haven't enough
> connections to the continent to have a good feel for their data
> privacy laws, which I gather are rather more extensive than here.
>
> Going to a not-well-understood jurisdiction might jump you from one
> set of perceived legal problems into another.
>
> If I was particularly worried about third party surveillance, I'd be
> looking further afield, though I'm not sufficiently paranoid to think
> it logical to try to head to a would-be data haven like the
> Principality of Sealand
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand>.  Something
> similar made an entertaining novel plot in Cryptonomicon, but, the
> world NOT working the way Ayn Rand imagined in Atlas Shrugged, those
> sorts of things seem not to work well, as noted here
> <http://socialmediacollective.org/2012/04/01/why-data-havens-dont-work/>.
>
> But I'm not terribly optimistic that going afield *really* solves the
> problems, and the "Why Data Havens Don't Work" essay describes the
> shortcomings pretty successfully.
>
> In principle, the 'simplest' jurisdiction ought to be Canada, in that
> this introduces no new legal issues that you aren't already party to.

Privacy concerns were my main focus when looking for a home. I'm lucky 
in that, in the clustering world and in the hacker-space community, I've 
come to know many people from various EU countries. Though none are 
perfect, it is better, and that was enough for me.

Since I setup, Iceland I think has gone even further in privacy 
protection. Might be worth looking there, too.

-- 
Digimer
Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.com
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 17:39:22 2012
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 13:39:22 -0400
Subject: Virtual Server Vendor Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <20120608155946.GA32347-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608155946.GA32347@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <20120608173922.GA29244@watson-wilson.ca>

I would try to stick with vendors that use KVM over Virtualbox.  VB can
be very odd.

Getting out of Canada has the advantage of being less vulnerable to
future government snooping should it come to that.  Also you'll be able
to VPN to the remote box and use it as a web proxy.

Pick someone who has full IPV6 support including reverse PTR records.
You should be able to get a whole block IPV6 addresses.  See
http://watson-wilson.ca/2012/03/ipv6-migration-part-4.html

There are excellent vendors to choose from in Europe including Sweden,
Switzerland and Luxembourg.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca
--
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 17:45:02 2012
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 13:45:02 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
Message-ID: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>

It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
read PDF technical manuals while commuting.  I've avoided these devices
completely in the past due to the DRM issues.

What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
local library?

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 17:57:35 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 13:57:35 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608174502.GA29627-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20120608175735.GT32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 01:45:02PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
> It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
> read PDF technical manuals while commuting.  I've avoided these devices
> completely in the past due to the DRM issues.
> 
> What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
> local library?

I know my wife's sony reader does PDFs.  The newer model she has does
them a lot better than the old one, but both are pretty good at it.

I have no idea what the library uses as a format, although the sony
readers support most formats.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 18:06:38 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:06:38 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608174502.GA29627-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <4FD23F2E.2030705@rogers.com>

Neil Watson wrote:
> It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
> read PDF technical manuals while commuting.  I've avoided these devices
> completely in the past due to the DRM issues.
>
> What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
> local library?
>

You have your choice of regular ebook readers, such as the Kobo or 
tablets.  Both can handle PDFs.  As for library books, the tablets make 
it easier as they can download books, whereas with ebook readers, you 
have to download to your (Windows) computer and then copy to the 
reader.  I have found ebook readers tend to work much better with epub 
and other ebooks than they do with PDF.  Also, O'Reilly is an excellent 
source of tech books.  Most books come in a variety of formats and are 
usually DRM free.



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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 19:29:49 2012
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 15:29:49 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608174502.GA29627-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20120608192949.GA1085@yam.witteman.ca>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 01:45:02PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
>It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
>read PDF technical manuals while commuting.  I've avoided these devices
>completely in the past due to the DRM issues.
>
>What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
>local library?

I've got a Barnes and Noble Nook Color that I am very happy with.  Out
of the box it is a bit underwhelming, but once you put CyanogenMod on
it, it becomes really useful.

Once it is a generic Android-ish tablet, I put on the Nook app, the Kobo
app, the Kindle app and Adobe reader on it, as well at FBReader (my
favourite epub reader) and I can use any ebook around.  DRM still sucks,
but it sucks less when it doesn't matter to your actual use of
legitimate purchases.  Also, Angry Birds makes for quiet cars trips with
my six-year-old.

I really like reading at night with it without needing a light, so the
LCD colour screen is just what I wanted - if your heart is set on eInk,
the new Nook Touch has a backlight that I am very intrigued by.

Short answer - get an Android-able tablet with the features you want and
you'll have the most versatility with the fewest drawbacks.
-- 

yours,

William

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From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  9 01:51:42 2012
From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 21:51:42 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608174502.GA29627-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20120609015142.GA9073@adb.ca>

Neil Watson wrote:
> It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
> read PDF technical manuals while commuting.  I've avoided these devices
> completely in the past due to the DRM issues.
> 
> What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
> local library?

Unfortunately, a number of municipal libraries have gotten into DRM
schemes (publisher-imposed) whereby the e-book "expires" from your
reader at the end of the borrowing period and then they can lend that
"copy" of that title to another reader.  There are even schemes
where they're only allowed to lend it out about the number of times
that a physical book does before it wears out, and then they have to
budget to buy another copy.

Yes, some publishers are quite intent on virtualizing things the way
they worked back in the horse-and-buggy era.

Likely your best first step is to ask at your local library, whichever
one is local to where you live, and find out what their policies are,
what manner of e-lending scheme they're on, and which reader(s) work
with their platform.  There won't be one answer that's the same across
the whole GTA.

I also note that I can buy DRM-free ebooks from O'Reilly, download free
ones from Project Gutenberg and others, and could probably even zip
across the Internet to my alma mater's library a lot faster than I could
physically visit the local library.  The municipal library model makes
a lot of sense for physical borrowing, but isn't as compelling for
ebooks.

-- 
Anthony de Boer
--
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From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 18:54:59 2012
From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:54:59 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
Message-ID: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>

Ewww, UPSes. That's just weird, putting batteries for DC devices at the AC stage. (Probably very reassuring over rigging up a DIY solution though.)

On the other hand, DC UPSes should naturally be happening for raspberry pi.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William Park
> Sent: 06/08/12 11:30 AM
> To: Toronto Linux Users Group
> Subject: [TLUG]: Which UPS?
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> My power supply can normally handle flickering of lights.
> But, during yesterday storm my light blinked, and my machine
> hanged.? So, I'm looking for UPS for 20 seconds at 300W.
> Browsing local stores, practically any UPS will do.
> 
> Is there any brand you'd not recommend?
> -- 
> 
> William

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From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 21:57:37 2012
From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 17:57:37 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <4FD23F2E.2030705-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca> <4FD23F2E.2030705@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4FD27551.8050903@sobac.com>

If you already have a phone with a decent screen, it might do. But I
haven't done any long-duration reading on my phone,

I've used Cool Reader[1] for ePub documents, which isn't awful. Doesn't
seem to do .PDF files, tho.

--Bob.

[1] http://crengine.sourceforge.net


Bob Jonkman <bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>         http://sobac.com/sobac/
SOBAC Microcomputer Services              Voice: +1-519-669-0388
6 James Street, Elmira ON  Canada  N3B 1L5  Cel: +1-519-635-9413
Software   ---   Office & Business Automation   ---   Consulting


On 06/08/2012 02:06 PM, James Knott wrote:
> Neil Watson wrote:
>> It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
>> read PDF technical manuals while commuting.  I've avoided these devices
>> completely in the past due to the DRM issues.
>>
>> What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
>> local library?
>>
> 
> You have your choice of regular ebook readers, such as the Kobo or
> tablets.  Both can handle PDFs.  As for library books, the tablets make
> it easier as they can download books, whereas with ebook readers, you
> have to download to your (Windows) computer and then copy to the
> reader.  I have found ebook readers tend to work much better with epub
> and other ebooks than they do with PDF.  Also, O'Reilly is an excellent
> source of tech books.  Most books come in a variety of formats and are
> usually DRM free.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 19:21:15 2012
From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Doucette)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 15:21:15 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608174502.GA29627-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q@mail.gmail.com>

I have a sony e-reader. It was one of the highly regarded models back in
the day. It WILL read PDF (and many other formats), but it does a terrible
job. While the speed has likely improved, the reality of reading manuals
(or anything else) on a 6" screen (the norm) are the real limiting factor.
Monochrome aside, a few inches does make a difference.

Aside from the screen emulating paper, and battery life, there is nothing
these do that a tablet won't do better, and faster.

Also, I get the "I don't want all that extra stuff, I just want a device to
read off of" argument, but the reality is that tablets are insanely useful
devices. The features are there when you want them, and can be ignored when
you don't. Spending $100+ on a single purpose device that does the job
poorly is not a good use of money, in my opinion.

aaron

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Neil Watson <tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org>wrote:

> It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
> read PDF technical manuals while commuting.  I've avoided these devices
> completely in the past due to the DRM issues.
>
> What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
> local library?
>
> --
> Neil Watson
> Linux/UNIX Consultant
> http://watson-wilson.ca
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists<http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists>
>
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 18:15:04 2012
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:15:04 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608175735.GT32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
 <20120608175735.GT32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20120608181504.GA30621@watson-wilson.ca>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 01:57:35PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>I have no idea what the library uses as a format, although the sony
>readers support most formats.

I believe that the common standard is epub.  The biggest concern about
ereaders seems to be how they handle PDF's.  Sometimes the PDF does not
flow will on a smaller screens.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 18:17:46 2012
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:17:46 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <4FD23F2E.2030705-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
 <4FD23F2E.2030705@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120608181746.GB30621@watson-wilson.ca>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 02:06:38PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
>readers, you have to download to your (Windows) computer and then 
>copy to the reader.  I have found ebook readers tend to work much 
>better with epub and other ebooks than they do with PDF.  Also, 
>O'Reilly is an excellent source of tech books.  Most books come in a 
>variety of formats and are usually DRM free.

I do not have a Windows PC.   Can I transfer to and from a Linux PC? For
PDF's I was looking at open source technical manuals.  Bacula for
example does not have an ebook but they do have PDF manuals.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca
--
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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 18:08:44 2012
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:08:44 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608174502.GA29627-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <CAEx-jsPnxhAVC6HL=jUihUFf68DqXTBLsWTiFabuCObw7Cgrow@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Neil Watson <tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
> read PDF technical manuals while commuting. ?I've avoided these devices
> completely in the past due to the DRM issues.
>
> What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
> local library?

Pretty much any Android device with Acrobat Reader installed, but I
prefer Aldiko <http://www.aldiko.com/>

Both can be downloaded from Google Play:
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.adobe.reader&hl=en>
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aldiko.android&hl=en>

Best,
-- 
? Scott Elcomb
? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca

? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems
? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/

? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada
? http://www.pirateparty.ca/
--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  9 03:04:50 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 23:04:50 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <20120608185501.50610-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <4FD2BD52.3050909@rogers.com>

Molly Tournquist wrote:
> Ewww, UPSes. That's just weird, putting batteries for DC devices at the AC stage. (Probably very reassuring over rigging up a DIY solution though.)

If you're so inclinded, you can get power supplies, at least for 
servers, that run on 48V DC or with some models, about 200V DC.  Of 
course, if you're handy with a soldering iron, you may be able to modify 
an AC power supply to run on high voltage DC.  Come to think of it, an 
AC supply should already run fine on a DC voltage of at least 150V, as 
the AC is just rectified, before being passed to the power oscillator.

--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  9 03:07:05 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 23:07:05 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608181746.GB30621-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca> <4FD23F2E.2030705@rogers.com> <20120608181746.GB30621@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <4FD2BDD9.4010503@rogers.com>

Neil Watson wrote:
> I do not have a Windows PC.   Can I transfer to and from a Linux PC?

The problem is DRM books.  I'm not aware of any DRM software, such as 
Adobe Digital Editions, that runs on Linux.  You should be able to run 
Windows in a VM, if you're so inclined.  DRM free books from O'Reilly 
and elsewhere are no problem for a Linux box.

--
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From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 20:05:06 2012
From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 16:05:06 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608174502.GA29627-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <4FD25AF2.1040908@gmail.com>

On 12-06-08 13:45 , Neil Watson wrote:
> 
> What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
> local library?

Anything that supports PDF and ePub directly through OverDrive and Adobe
Digital Editions. So basically, not a Kindle.

I have a B&N Nook Color which I like, but it has resisted all attempts
to stay as a rooted Android device. It's good for ePub and PDF. The only
major problem I have with it is its power/data cable, which is a mutant
micro-usb thing that's compatible with nothing else.

cheers,
 Stewart
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From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun  8 18:18:47 2012
From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:18:47 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608174502.GA29627-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <18D22D727FC64396860C16DF64E8D141@mylesbraithwaite.com>

On Friday, 8 June, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Neil Watson wrote:
> It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
> read PDF technical manuals while commuting. I've avoided these devices
> completely in the past due to the DRM issues.
> 
> What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
> local library?

PDF are really only in the A4 page layout. So make sure the E-Reader you buy is around the same size (i.e. 8.5" x 11") or a similar aspect ratio.

-- 
Myles Braithwaite
http://mylesbraithwaite.com | me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org



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From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  9 04:23:28 2012
From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 00:23:28 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <18D22D727FC64396860C16DF64E8D141-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
 <18D22D727FC64396860C16DF64E8D141@mylesbraithwaite.com>
Message-ID: <20120609042328.GB9073@adb.ca>

Myles Braithwaite wrote:
> PDF are really only in the A4 page layout. So make sure the E-Reader you buy is around the same size (i.e. 8.5" x 11") or a similar aspect ratio.

A4 is a European standard, and it's a bit taller and narrower than North
American 8.5x11" Letter.

Any attempt to render a document into a set page size becomes an exercise
in fail the moment you let an electronic copy cross the Atlantic, or
really get out of your hands at all.

(A possible compromise is to render to a virtual size as wide as A4 and
11" tall, and let the document have a silly excess right margin here and
bottom margin over there.  But reflowable documents are better.)

-- 
Anthony de Boer
--
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From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  9 04:28:42 2012
From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 00:28:42 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
 <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120609042842.GA2553@amber>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 03:21:15PM -0400, Aaron Doucette wrote:

>    I have a sony e-reader. It was one of the highly regarded models back
>    in the day. It WILL read PDF (and many other formats), but it does a
>    terrible job. While the speed has likely improved, the reality of
>    reading manuals (or anything else) on a 6" screen (the norm) are the
>    real limiting factor. Monochrome aside, a few inches does make a
>    difference.
> 
>    Aside from the screen emulating paper, and battery life, there is
>    nothing these do that a tablet won't do better, and faster.

Well, yes there is. I think the e-ink screen is an excellent solution for
reading books for long periods of time: the contrast is perfect for minimizing
eyestrain, even in direct sunlight, and the technology means that an e-reader 
carries a charge for weeks at a time. They are wonderful devices for reading
fiction, and certain kinds of expository prose.

That said, there are limitations to e-readers. They work extremely well for
one-time-through sequential-access volumes, such as novels. They are terrible
for reference manuals (hard to get to a specific page number) and usually don't
have the horsepower to render PDFs well and quickly. I do those things with my
tablet. But I can toss my Kobo in a flight bag and have enough books for any
trip (currently over 600 on it), in a lightweight and sturdy and portable form
factor, with a charge that lasts and lasts. E-readers do mostly just one thing,
but they do it better than a phone, a tablet, or a computer can.

-- 
Peter King			 	peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
Department of Philosophy
170 St. George Street #521
The University of Toronto		    (416)-978-4951 ofc
Toronto, ON  M5R 2M8
       CANADA

http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/

=========================================================================
GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC  36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42)
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From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  9 05:06:58 2012
From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 01:06:58 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
Message-ID: <20120609050700.50600@gmx.com>

Oh, what a surprise, the really nice things being server-only, accoustically horrifying things like 40mm fans getting in the way of niceness aside.

48DC sounds interesting, I've heard it's somewhat common with solar power systems.

James Knott wrote:
> Molly Tournquist wrote:
> > Ewww, UPSes. That's just weird, putting batteries for DC devices at the AC stage. (Probably very reassuring over rigging up a DIY solution though.)
> 
> If you're so inclinded, you can get power supplies, at least for 
> servers, that run on 48V DC or with some models, about 200V DC. Of 
> course, if you're handy with a soldering iron, you may be able to modify 
> an AC power supply to run on high voltage DC. Come to think of it, an 
> AC supply should already run fine on a DC voltage of at least 150V, as 
> the AC is just rectified, before being passed to the power oscillator.

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  9 11:20:57 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 07:20:57 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <20120609050700.50600-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120609050700.50600@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <4FD33199.5090307@rogers.com>

Molly Tournquist wrote:
> 48DC sounds interesting, I've heard it's somewhat common with solar power systems.

It's the standard supply for telecommunications equipment.  That 
equipment will often have 2 or 3 separate -48V connections for redundancy.
--
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  9 14:57:48 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:57:48 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120609042328.GB9073-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
	<18D22D727FC64396860C16DF64E8D141@mylesbraithwaite.com>
	<20120609042328.GB9073@adb.ca>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+4MfLRSQYF5xH1vz=uudd539QaY=UQTZfJQFBUG8FiQXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Morning
>
> A4 is a European standard, and it's a bit taller and narrower than North
> American 8.5x11" Letter.
>

Hmm, A4 is not European, its the world standard.  Only north American don't
use it, just like they ignore every other metric units

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A4_paper


> Any attempt to render a document into a set page size becomes an exercise
> in fail the moment you let an electronic copy cross the Atlantic, or
> really get out of your hands at all.
>
> (A possible compromise is to render to a virtual size as wide as A4 and
> 11" tall, and let the document have a silly excess right margin here and
> bottom margin over there.  But reflowable documents are better.)
>
> --
> Anthony de Boer
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun  9 21:19:03 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 17:19:03 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608175735.GT32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca> <20120608175735.GT32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FD3BDC7.3080209@rogers.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> I have no idea what the library uses as a format, although the sony
> readers support most formats.

The Mississauga library has epub and pdf, though many items are 
available in only one format.
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From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 10 02:54:58 2012
From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 22:54:58 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>

So, um, who has their Raspberry Pi, then?

Got my two on Thursday. Set one up with a 32GB card and the stock Debian
install. It's surprisingly zippy when moving windows about on a huge
display. The wiki (http://elinux.org/R-Pi_Hub) is decent, but the forum
(http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/) is where the real information
lives. If you're handy with a sharp knife, the shipping box makes a
decent improvised enclosure.

My only complaint is that the connectors are splayed all round the sides
of the board. If you use network, USB, video and sound, that's a cable
or two sticking out each side, which is messy.

cheers,
 Stewart
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 10 03:00:15 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:00:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608175735.GT32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca> <20120608175735.GT32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206092250540.5246@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>
| 
| On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 01:45:02PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote:
| > It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
| > read PDF technical manuals while commuting.  I've avoided these devices
| > completely in the past due to the DRM issues.
| > 
| > What kind of reader can I get that can read PDF's and ebooks from my
| > local library?

ebooks in epub format are not a problem.  TPL uses Adobe's DRM, but
perhaps not exclusively.  So Kobo and Sony readers should work.

I've not really encountered DRMed PDFs, but they apparently exist.

| I know my wife's sony reader does PDFs.  The newer model she has does
| them a lot better than the old one, but both are pretty good at it.

Does it reflow PDFs?  That's pretty hard to do in a generic way, I
think.  PDF gives the producer full control over layout, and that
layout normally does not fit in an e-ink reader.

Panning and zooming a PDF on an e-ink display seems like a horrible
experience.

With an iPad-like tablet
- you have a lot more real estate
- panning and zooming are quite fluid
- the device is more expensive, heavier, and has shorter battery life

(My daugther reads PDFs on a Nokia n810.  One step before loading the
documents on the tablet is to strip off the margins.  I don't know how
painful the reading process is.)

| I have no idea what the library uses as a format, although the sony
| readers support most formats.
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From martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 10 15:29:57 2012
From: martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Martin)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:29:57 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <4FD40C82.2090506-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>

Me. It arrived Wednesday, June 6, ordered February 29.

I'm also running the Debian April 19 distribution on an 8GB card. I
have a second card with Arch Linux in mind.

We're a one TV family. Hooking it up to the TV was sub-optimal from
ergonomic and marital standpoints so now it runs headless with SSH and
tightvncserver and I work on it from (yes, I admit it) a Windows XP
machine.

Curious how much extra cost a $35 computer can get you into.

Still playing. No big plans. But I love this little thing.


John
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From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 11:47:52 2012
From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 07:47:52 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 11:29 AM, John Martin <martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Curious how much extra cost a $35 computer can get you into.
>
> Still playing. No big plans. But I love this little thing.

Here are some instructions to build a cool case made of LEGO for your
Raspberry Pi:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1354

-- 
? ? ? ? ?http://www.circuidipity.com
? .~. ?/
? /V\
?//? \\
/(??? )\
?^`~`^
--
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 13:52:52 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:52:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com> <CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: John Martin <martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| Curious how much extra cost a $35 computer can get you into.

What were your extra costs?  You didn't list any extras in your
message.  Perhaps you are still thinking of buying a monitor.  Then
the space budget gets more serious too!

Who did you order from and how much was shipping and handling?


| From: Daniel Wayne Armstrong <daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org>

| Here are some instructions to build a cool case made of LEGO for your
| Raspberry Pi:
| 
| http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1354

Nice!  But Lego is one of the more expensive building materials.  On
the other hand, maybe kids grow out of Lego and grow into Raspberry Pi
at about the same time.  On the gripper hand, the article suggests
otherwise since Biz is part of the FIRST LEGO League Open Robot
Championship.

Who did you order from and how much was shipping and handling?
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From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:11:12 2012
From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:11:12 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAAsTreCN=06697N1kCimiSw_Cf82+BiNQXQMRDwYgmNtBJrRtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 9:52 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> What were your extra costs?

At the very minimum, you will need:
* A Micro-USB power supply capable of delivering at least 700mA; most
phone chargers will do this.
* A SDHC card of at least 2GB. I got a semi reasonable deal on a
couple of 32GB Class 10s.

You will also likely need:
* a network cable
* USB keyboard/mouse
* HDMI or composite monitor cable. The Raspberry Pi does not do VGA.

You'll easily spend another $35 on this to get it going.

> Who did you order from and how much was shipping and handling?

Newark: http://canada.newark.com/
My total charges were $92.66 for two.They're $35 + tax + shipping
($12). Would be worth doing a bulk-buy to save on shipping.

cheers,
 Stewart

-- 
http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID
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From martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:15:31 2012
From: martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Martin)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:15:31 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAKpZftR13yHxaGH1J1JdHwg=rRJ2kRfBwg8Hyzu0Of6sqP470A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 9:52 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> | From: John Martin <martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>
> | Curious how much extra cost a $35 computer can get you into.
>
> What were your extra costs? ?You didn't list any extras in your
> message. ?Perhaps you are still thinking of buying a monitor. ?Then
> the space budget gets more serious too!
>
> Who did you order from and how much was shipping and handling?

Newark/element14. Total cost $53 and change including shipping from
Mississauga by Purolator.

http://canada.newark.com/raspberry-pi/raspbrry-pcba/raspberry-pi-model-b-board-only/dp/83T1943

The extras were:

power supply, $30
SD cards, 8GB, Kingston, 2, $8 ea.
HDMI cable, 10', $13


No case yet. It sits on a non-conductive surface.

There's cute cardboard cut-out case available as a pdf template at:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1310

Someone suggested taking a sharp knife to the little box it comes in.


j
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:21:31 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:21:31 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
 <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120611142131.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 03:21:15PM -0400, Aaron Doucette wrote:
> I have a sony e-reader. It was one of the highly regarded models back in
> the day. It WILL read PDF (and many other formats), but it does a terrible
> job. While the speed has likely improved, the reality of reading manuals
> (or anything else) on a 6" screen (the norm) are the real limiting factor.
> Monochrome aside, a few inches does make a difference.
> 
> Aside from the screen emulating paper, and battery life, there is nothing
> these do that a tablet won't do better, and faster.
> 
> Also, I get the "I don't want all that extra stuff, I just want a device to
> read off of" argument, but the reality is that tablets are insanely useful
> devices. The features are there when you want them, and can be ignored when
> you don't. Spending $100+ on a single purpose device that does the job
> poorly is not a good use of money, in my opinion.

Well ereaders happen to work well in sun light, something most tablets
do not, they are light, cheap, and very nice to read on.  And the battery
lasts just about forever.

Yes they are a bit slow at changing pages, although not as slow as they
used to be.

The old sony's did have a lot more trouble with PDFs that current ones do.

Personally I have a hard time imaging what a tablet is good for.
I consider them useless.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:22:52 2012
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:22:52 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAJUuK_BmUyRDNe_n6=-2=mS+LPZAaNcmZnf_jfjETFWTJauyUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 9:52 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> | From: John Martin <martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>
> | Curious how much extra cost a $35 computer can get you into.
>
> What were your extra costs? ?You didn't list any extras in your
> message. ?Perhaps you are still thinking of buying a monitor. ?Then
> the space budget gets more serious too!

Extra costs would be an SD card ($5+ depending on capacity),
keyboard/mouse ($15+ if bought new, free if recycled from an old PC),
monitor (~$80+ depending on size new, again can be free if recycled
from an old PC) and a case (plans have been published for a homemade
cardboard box, effectively free on up to whatever...).

> Who did you order from and how much was shipping and handling?
>
>
> | From: Daniel Wayne Armstrong <daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org>
>
> | Here are some instructions to build a cool case made of LEGO for your
> | Raspberry Pi:
> |
> | http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1354
>
> Nice! ?But Lego is one of the more expensive building materials. ?On
> the other hand, maybe kids grow out of Lego and grow into Raspberry Pi
> at about the same time. ?On the gripper hand, the article suggests
> otherwise since Biz is part of the FIRST LEGO League Open Robot
> Championship.
>
> Who did you order from and how much was shipping and handling?
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:24:30 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:24:30 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206092250540.5246-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
 <20120608175735.GT32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206092250540.5246@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20120611142430.GV32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 11:00:15PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> ebooks in epub format are not a problem.  TPL uses Adobe's DRM, but
> perhaps not exclusively.  So Kobo and Sony readers should work.
> 
> I've not really encountered DRMed PDFs, but they apparently exist.
> 
> Does it reflow PDFs?  That's pretty hard to do in a generic way, I
> think.  PDF gives the producer full control over layout, and that
> layout normally does not fit in an e-ink reader.

>From what I have seen, the new one scales them and allows pretty quick
zoom in and out and since it has a touch screen it can be used to move
the pdf view around when zoomed.

> Panning and zooming a PDF on an e-ink display seems like a horrible
> experience.

On the newer much faster ones, it isn't that bad.

> With an iPad-like tablet
> - you have a lot more real estate
> - panning and zooming are quite fluid
> - the device is more expensive, heavier, and has shorter battery life

And can only be read indoors.
Also doesn't tend to have nice dedicated page flip buttons.

> (My daugther reads PDFs on a Nokia n810.  One step before loading the
> documents on the tablet is to strip off the margins.  I don't know how
> painful the reading process is.)

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:28:12 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:28:12 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608192949.GA1085-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
 <20120608192949.GA1085@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <20120611142812.GW32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 03:29:49PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> I've got a Barnes and Noble Nook Color that I am very happy with.  Out
> of the box it is a bit underwhelming, but once you put CyanogenMod on
> it, it becomes really useful.
> 
> Once it is a generic Android-ish tablet, I put on the Nook app, the Kobo
> app, the Kindle app and Adobe reader on it, as well at FBReader (my
> favourite epub reader) and I can use any ebook around.  DRM still sucks,
> but it sucks less when it doesn't matter to your actual use of
> legitimate purchases.  Also, Angry Birds makes for quiet cars trips with
> my six-year-old.
> 
> I really like reading at night with it without needing a light, so the
> LCD colour screen is just what I wanted - if your heart is set on eInk,
> the new Nook Touch has a backlight that I am very intrigued by.

Sony tried that on their first touch display reader.  It made the
screen blurry.  Well it was more 'side lit' than 'back lit', although
so are most back lit screens.  Sony made sure not to make that mistake
on their second touch screen ereader.

> Short answer - get an Android-able tablet with the features you want and
> you'll have the most versatility with the fewest drawbacks.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:30:29 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:30:29 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120611142131.GU32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca> <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q@mail.gmail.com> <20120611142131.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FD60105.3000606@rogers.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Personally I have a hard time imaging what a tablet is good for.
> I consider them useless.

Lots of things.  I often use mine for email, listening to music, surfing 
"the web" and more, in addition to reading books.  I have found some 
books are better on the tablet.  I can also download books directly to 
the tablet, including library books, whereas my ebook reader requires 
books be downloaded to my computer first and then copied across and 
library books have to be downloaded to a computer running Windows.  I 
can also use ssh to access my home computers.  Incidentally, the other 
day, I was showing my tablet to a friend.  She's a real estate agent and 
quickly saw the advantages it would have for her work.

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:30:34 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:30:34 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FD2BD52.3050909-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
 <4FD2BD52.3050909@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120611143034.GX32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 11:04:50PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> Molly Tournquist wrote:
> >Ewww, UPSes. That's just weird, putting batteries for DC devices at the AC stage. (Probably very reassuring over rigging up a DIY solution though.)
> 
> If you're so inclinded, you can get power supplies, at least for
> servers, that run on 48V DC or with some models, about 200V DC.  Of
> course, if you're handy with a soldering iron, you may be able to
> modify an AC power supply to run on high voltage DC.  Come to think
> of it, an AC supply should already run fine on a DC voltage of at
> least 150V, as the AC is just rectified, before being passed to the
> power oscillator.

I suppose it ought to work, although given how many now have power factor
correction, wouldn't that part get very confused?

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:31:31 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:31:31 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <20120608185501.50610-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 02:54:59PM -0400, Molly Tournquist wrote:
> Ewww, UPSes. That's just weird, putting batteries for DC devices at the AC stage. (Probably very reassuring over rigging up a DIY solution though.)
> 
> On the other hand, DC UPSes should naturally be happening for raspberry pi.

Yes, using a UPS to generate AC just to convert it back to DC is very
very stupid.  Yet everyone (almost) keeps doing it.

It would be much more sane to have the UPS convert AC to DC, store it
and then feed DC to the computer.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:32:03 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:32:03 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120611142430.GV32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca> <20120608175735.GT32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206092250540.5246@redclaw.mimosa.com> <20120611142430.GV32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FD60163.8000003@rogers.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Also doesn't tend to have nice dedicated page flip buttons.

On my Android tabley, I can either swipe to change pages or simply touch 
the screen at one side or the other, depending on which way I want to 
turn the page.

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From martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:35:21 2012
From: martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Martin)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:35:21 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <CAJUuK_BmUyRDNe_n6=-2=mS+LPZAaNcmZnf_jfjETFWTJauyUQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	<CAJUuK_BmUyRDNe_n6=-2=mS+LPZAaNcmZnf_jfjETFWTJauyUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKpZftRRPQX+U=GJNPFpEhzEagMKpq-WceD8jYxm1+e5D3XCog@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Colin McGregor <colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> | From: John Martin <martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>> | Curious how much extra cost a $35 computer can get you into.
>>
>> [. . .]
>
> Extra costs would be an SD card ($5+ depending on capacity),
> keyboard/mouse ($15+ if bought new, free if recycled from an old PC),
> monitor (~$80+ depending on size new, again can be free if recycled
> from an old PC) and a case (plans have been published for a homemade
> cardboard box, effectively free on up to whatever...).

The Pi does not do VGA so I'm stuck with a TV for direct connection.
HDMI is excellent, RCA analog a bit rubbish.

It doesn't do PS/2 keyboard/mouse either. Fortunately, I had a some
USB ones kicking around.

As mentioned, for messing about, SSH and VNC works fine at zero cost.

I picked up the extras at Canada Computers.


j
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 14:35:26 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:35:26 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <4FD60105.3000606-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
 <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120611142131.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FD60105.3000606@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120611143526.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:30:29AM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> Lots of things.  I often use mine for email, listening to music,
> surfing "the web" and more, in addition to reading books.  I have
> found some books are better on the tablet.  I can also download
> books directly to the tablet, including library books, whereas my
> ebook reader requires books be downloaded to my computer first and
> then copied across and library books have to be downloaded to a
> computer running Windows.  I can also use ssh to access my home
> computers.  Incidentally, the other day, I was showing my tablet to
> a friend.  She's a real estate agent and quickly saw the advantages
> it would have for her work.

To me "surfing the web" isn't happening without a keyboard, and touch
screens make lousy keyboards.

Same for email obviously.

For showing pictures, I suppose it is better than a digital photo frame
and potentially more convinient than a laptop.

TabletPCs were a good idea, except too expensive and a bit heavy.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 15:00:42 2012
From: martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Martin)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:00:42 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <CAKpZftR13yHxaGH1J1JdHwg=rRJ2kRfBwg8Hyzu0Of6sqP470A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	<CAKpZftR13yHxaGH1J1JdHwg=rRJ2kRfBwg8Hyzu0Of6sqP470A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKpZftSz7qc1oh_-KkgP5kisfdMiNeKx-yhYu965UxpfKdG4mw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:15 AM, John Martin <martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Someone suggested taking a sharp knife to the little box it comes in.

Sorry Stewart, that was you.  -j
--
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 15:30:15 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:30:15 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <20120611143131.GY32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>

'
On Jun 11, 2012 10:33 AM, "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>
wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 08, 2012 at 02:54:59PM -0400, Molly Tournquist wrote:
> > Ewww, UPSes. That's just weird, putting batteries for DC devices at the
AC stage. (Probably very reassuring over rigging up a DIY solution though.)
> >
> > On the other hand, DC UPSes should naturally be happening for raspberry
pi.
>
> Yes, using a UPS to generate AC just to convert it back to DC is very
> very stupid.  Yet everyone (almost) keeps doing it.
>
> It would be much more sane to have the UPS convert AC to DC, store it
> and then feed DC to the computer.

Good point,  the problem though is that all computers expect A/C, so unless
the computer industry agree to provide a DC input point to all laptop and
servers, how would the UPS industry achieve that?

William
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From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 15:34:29 2012
From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:34:29 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <CAKpZftRRPQX+U=GJNPFpEhzEagMKpq-WceD8jYxm1+e5D3XCog-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com> <CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com> <CAJUuK_BmUyRDNe_n6=-2=mS+LPZAaNcmZnf_jfjETFWTJauyUQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAKpZftRRPQX+U=GJNPFpEhzEagMKpq-WceD8jYxm1+e5D3XCog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD61005.60800@rogers.com>

On 11/06/12 10:35 AM, John Martin wrote:
>
> As mentioned, for messing about, SSH and VNC works fine at zero cost.

Would diskless remote boot be easy to set up?
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From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 15:38:27 2012
From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:38:27 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <CAKpZftSz7qc1oh_-KkgP5kisfdMiNeKx-yhYu965UxpfKdG4mw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	<CAKpZftR13yHxaGH1J1JdHwg=rRJ2kRfBwg8Hyzu0Of6sqP470A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftSz7qc1oh_-KkgP5kisfdMiNeKx-yhYu965UxpfKdG4mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAsTreDA2RgcAn2+Fy5H23URU-qgv3+esJ0jp=fs-UHaHb0mfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 11:00 AM, John Martin <martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Sorry Stewart, that was you. ?-j

No worries. I ended up using an old Sparkfun box I had lying around:
http://scruss.com/blog/2012/06/09/not-overthinking-raspberry-pi-enclosures-one-bit/

Kind of looks like a haunted pizza box with the faint flashing glow
from the network lights therein.

cheers,
 Stewart


-- 
http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID
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From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 15:44:51 2012
From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:44:51 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <4FD61005.60800-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	<CAJUuK_BmUyRDNe_n6=-2=mS+LPZAaNcmZnf_jfjETFWTJauyUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftRRPQX+U=GJNPFpEhzEagMKpq-WceD8jYxm1+e5D3XCog@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD61005.60800@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAAsTreAGMfi8x2+Qw4QTq48XS6dTP=0JZg8m-nfMKR9X0wujbA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Yanni Chiu <yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Would diskless remote boot be easy to set up?

No. It needs to boot from the SD card.Since a Class 10 4GB SDHC is
under $5 (and that would give you > 2GB free for your own stuff on top
of the system) it's not really worth the time to try.

cheers,
 Stewart

-- 
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From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 15:57:02 2012
From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:57:02 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAsTreC0WKRryQRm4xBnhQskoeEN61u8+AA_bz+yyw6BsUg+ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 11:30 AM, William Muriithi
<william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Good point,? the problem though is that all computers expect A/C, so unless
> the computer industry agree to provide a DC input point to all laptop and
> servers, how would the UPS industry achieve that?

Any domestic DC system much above 12V is going to be looked at askance
by ULC and any other certification body. DC arcs don't quench, so the
approvals people have traditionally considered DC to be a fire risk.
This is changing, partly because domestic solar systems for MicroFIT
are suddenly causing a whole lot of 600V DC systems to be installed on
people's roofs.

cheers,
 Stewart


-- 
http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 16:07:24 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:07:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <CAKpZftR13yHxaGH1J1JdHwg=rRJ2kRfBwg8Hyzu0Of6sqP470A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com> <CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com> <CAKpZftR13yHxaGH1J1JdHwg=rRJ2kRfBwg8Hyzu0Of6sqP470A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206111020400.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: John Martin <martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| power supply, $30

Would a powered USB hub not do the trick?  You might want a hub anyway
to hook more peripherals in.

Brand name cable, not too expensive:
  <http://www.bewawa.com/usb-cable-4-pin-usb-type-a-male-5.html>

These look like they might work for wall-plug to USB:
 <http://cty.ca/ProductDetails.asp?pid=4789>

Cheap cell phone charger should work (as previously mentioned by Stewart).


| SD cards, 8GB, Kingston, 2, $8 ea.

This might be a good choice (16G, Class 10, $13.49):
 <http://ncix.com/products/?sku=62562&vpn=AUSDH16GCL10-RA1&manufacture=AData%20Technology>
 <http://forums.redflagdeals.com/ncix-13-49-adata-microsdhc-16-gb-class-10-a-1187834/>

| HDMI cable, 10', $13

I *think* you can get them from Dollarama for $2, but shorter.  Stock
comes and goes though.  Bewawa.com has inexpensive HDMI cables too
(and free GTA delivery).

<http://www.bewawa.com/5ft-hdmi-male-to-male-w-ferrites-blue.html>
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 16:18:42 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:18:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120611143526.GZ32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca> <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q@mail.gmail.com> <20120611142131.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD60105.3000606@rogers.com> <20120611143526.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206111211180.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>

| To me "surfing the web" isn't happening without a keyboard, and touch
| screens make lousy keyboards.

I find I use a tablet a lot for surfing.  But not research (google
searches) -- too much text entry.

| Same for email obviously.

Agreed.  But each to his own -- lots of folks find email is fine on a
phone.  Probably their messages are more like SMS than discursive
epistles.

| TabletPCs were a good idea, except too expensive and a bit heavy.

Funny.  I bought a ThinkPad x61t to try this out.  I just don't use
the tablet aspect of it.  Why not?

- having to use the stylus is a little awkward.

- the stylus would be great for handwriting if there were a good
  recognition application that I knew about (people gush about MS
  OneNote but I'm a Linux user)

- the keyboard is already there anyway

- the Multitouch features popularized by Apple really are nice.
  Nothing like it for the x61t.

- the battery and fan/disk noise make it a less serene experience than
  any of my iPad and iPad-like tablets
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 16:23:39 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:23:39 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206111211180.19279-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca> <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q@mail.gmail.com> <20120611142131.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD60105.3000606@rogers.com> <20120611143526.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206111211180.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <4FD61B8B.4020507@rogers.com>

D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> | Same for email obviously.
>
> Agreed.  But each to his own -- lots of folks find email is fine on a
> phone.  Probably their messages are more like SMS than discursive
> epistles.

I do the bulk of my email on a regular PC or notebook, but I don't 
always have those available.  A tablet is easy to carry around and a lot 
easier than a phone for email.

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From martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 17:09:33 2012
From: martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Martin)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 13:09:33 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206111020400.19279-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
	<CAKpZftTtkATP0eLZtRSZBNnD7fADn8W8fmyfNkQXTOxRPtDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACa31mD1MDFGDVJrB0xsP=1Dyq16axdqBLj+OdKQo8vRSYBcUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206110942000.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	<CAKpZftR13yHxaGH1J1JdHwg=rRJ2kRfBwg8Hyzu0Of6sqP470A@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206111020400.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAKpZftRTwC2jDmDB2isUKHC-SUSnAULnDACSyfShCuuXmjM5dg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 12:07 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Would a powered USB hub not do the trick? ?You might want a hub anyway
> to hook more peripherals in.

Apparently this does not work. A powered USB hub is, though,
recommended if you want to run, e.g., a USB-attached HD.


> Cheap cell phone charger should work (as previously mentioned by Stewart).

Not too cheap as the ability to sustain 5V at 700mA is critical.


> | HDMI cable, 10', $13
>
> I *think* you can get them from Dollarama for $2, but shorter. ?Stock
> comes and goes though. ?Bewawa.com has inexpensive HDMI cables too
> (and free GTA delivery).

I was pleased to find this at this price. A 6' cable is under $10.
TigerDirect's HDMI cables (that they actually have in stock) are
upwards of $50.

Thanks for your feedback.


j
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 17:16:24 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 13:16:24 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
 <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 11:30:15AM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
> Good point,  the problem though is that all computers expect A/C, so unless
> the computer industry agree to provide a DC input point to all laptop and
> servers, how would the UPS industry achieve that?

Laptops already take DC in.  They have external AC to DC adapters.

Desktops are the problem.

What you would want is:

http://www.powerstream.com/DC-PC-48V.htm

(or something similar)

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 11 17:25:43 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 13:25:43 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <4FD61B8B.4020507-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
 <CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120611142131.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FD60105.3000606@rogers.com>
 <20120611143526.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206111211180.19279@redclaw.mimosa.com>
 <4FD61B8B.4020507@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120611172543.GB32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 12:23:39PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> I do the bulk of my email on a regular PC or notebook, but I don't
> always have those available.  A tablet is easy to carry around and a
> lot easier than a phone for email.

I think I would take a netbook over a tablet for email, although I don't
particularly like netbooks in their current from.  The Lenovo X230 on
the other hand looks lovely.

There are phones with very nice keyboards on them.  I wish more had that.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 02:54:26 2012
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 22:54:26 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI
In-Reply-To: <4FD40C82.2090506-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org>

On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 10:54:58PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell wrote

> My only complaint is that the connectors are splayed all round the sides
> of the board. If you use network, USB, video and sound, that's a cable
> or two sticking out each side, which is messy.

  If they came with 2 network connectors, they'd make wicked routers /
proxies / gateways.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org>
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From stan-IWrolz/j94yY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 06:08:40 2012
From: stan-IWrolz/j94yY+5vIsb+96wC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Stan Witkowski)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 02:08:40 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120608174502.GA29627-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20120612061802.C903BA2BDB@lethe.ss.org>

At 01:45 PM 2012-06-08, Neil Watson wrote:
>It occurs to me that an ebook reader might be a good choice for me to
>read PDF technical manuals while commuting.
>Neil Watson



Ebook Readers:


I use a Kobo Vox  (Android v2.3.3)  7 inch tablet.   $179
    See:      http://www.kobobooks.com/ereaders
    Specs:    http://www.kobobooks.com/kobovox_tech
    Info:     http://kobo.intelliresponse.com/vox
for:      reading [epub, mobi, PDF, HTML, ASCII text] ebooks and
           music and photos and videos
not for:  reading anything with DRM in it, or email or anything that
           requires a lot of interaction or data entry/typing,
           or reading OUTDOORS.  Your usage will likely vary.


I can't stand e-ink readers because everyone that I've seen
turns the screen 100% black every time you turn a page, and I find
that "blast-to-BLACK" each time REALLY annoying.
Others don't seem to mind, so visit Chapters and try them yourself.


Ignore the official specs on which file formats the Kobo Vox
(or ANY Android tablet) will handle.

It (like any Android tablet) will handle any file format that you
can find an app for. The trick is to suck down a lot of apps as
soon as you get the tablet home.

Also, read up on how Android works to get the most out of your tablet.


Note: Based on complaints I've read online EACH NEW USER should
       know this:

1. You should update your device's firmware ASAP. It may remove
    a lot of annoyances.

2. Android Market (now called Google Play) only sounds like the
    only place to get Android apps, but it is NOT by a long shot.

    Mainly, though, not every Android device automatically has access
    to it, (only if the device manufacturer has made specific
    arrangements!!!).  My Kobo Vox maker did not. To me, this was only
    mildly annoying rather than a deal breaker, but to newbie types
    this can lead to them returning the unit.
    If each Android device maker would only include a ONE PAGE
    piece of paper with each device explaining this it would prevent
    a lot of returns!!!

3. Decided on what you want the unit for BEFORE buying one, and then
    go around and try out various ones.  And learn some basic Android
    info BEFORE trying out different units.

4. Understand that just because your Android device does not do what
    you want with the (usually only few) apps that come on it, that
    DOES NOT MEAN that it is "no good", or that it can not do that.
    GET MORE APPS ASAP when you get your unit!!

5. Battery/power management: Just under two-thirds of your power
    will go to powering the display, and just under one-third will
    go to powering your WI-FI connection, with the remainder
    (10 - 15 per cent) POWERING EVERYTHING ELSE ON YOUR TABLET.
    Please note that these are ballpark figures, and your device may vary.

    Regardless, dimming your display and turning OFF your WI-FI
    (see Airplane Mode) will help a lot.

6. Apps you should get first:
    - Angry Birds             (game)
    - Advanced Task Master    (controls all apps)
    - Battery Watch           (displays battery info)
    - FBReader                (ebook reader)
    - File Expert             (access directories and files)
    - WIFI Analyzer           (list WIFI spots and show signal strength)

    - Turn WIFI ON (touch "Settings", then "Wireless & networks")
    - Go back to the main screen and touch "All Apps", then touch "Get Apps"

7. Note that if you are over, say, 35, your eyesight is likely to
    no longer be great.  If you use your tablet for reading A LOT,
    you should seriously consider a larger (10 inch) tablet.

================

Stan.

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 11:51:47 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:51:47 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120612061802.C903BA2BDB-MHjupGqSvN5g9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca> <20120612061802.C903BA2BDB@lethe.ss.org>
Message-ID: <4FD72D53.3030401@rogers.com>

Stan Witkowski wrote:
>    - FBReader                (ebook reader)

Actually, I find Aldiko is better.  FBReader often does a poor job of 
displaying tables, numbered lists, etc.  Also, you can use Aldiko if you 
want to copy DRM books from your computer, but not with FBReader.

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 12:30:33 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:30:33 -0400
Subject: Rogers DHCP server
In-Reply-To: <4FBEA070.7060601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1205241409440.2865@redclaw.mimosa.com> <4FBEA070.7060601@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4FD73669.7010709@rogers.com>

James Knott wrote:
> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
>> One more reason to hate Rogers cable internet: they changed my IP number
>> today while my DHCP lease was still alive.  I wondered why networking
>> wasn't.
>>
>
> Mine changed recently too.  I my address used to start with 99, now 
> 174.  What happened is your lease expired at a time that was 
> inconvenient and you were given the new address.  I didn't notice 
> until I was checking the IP address for other reasons.  At least with 
> Rogers, unlike some of the other providers, the addresses change so 
> seldom they're virtually static.  The host name is static, so long as 
> you don't change the hardware.  I have a DNS alias that points to the 
> long host name I get from Rogers.  Perhaps they've got some changes 
> occurring that required new addresses.
>
>
>

I see my address is back to 99.x.y.z.  I guess they were doing some work 
that required a temporary change.

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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 15:30:31 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:30:31 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <20120611171624.GA32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 June 2012 13:16, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> What you would want is:
>
> http://www.powerstream.com/DC-PC-48V.htm
>
> (or something similar)

Perhaps something similar but more efficient. From the above link:
Efficiency 70% typical @48V DC Full Load

If you're feeding this from a DC output UPS that provides 48V
converted from AC, your going to waste a lot of power when the mains
are up, for the short time that you'd be running off the battery. In
addition to the low efficiency of the above supplies, you have to
factor in the UPS's efficiency for continuously converting the full
power requirements of the PC, in addition to charging and maintaining
the batteries.

Standard AC input power supplies in PCs are typically 80% efficient or better.

On 11 June 2012 10:31, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Yes, using a UPS to generate AC just to convert it back to DC is very
> very stupid.  Yet everyone (almost) keeps doing it.

If the primary power that you have for your PC is 120VAC (we're
talking the typical North American home here) then an AC output UPS
isn't so stupid.

With a standard 120VAC output UPS:
  - While on mains (most of the time):
AC is fed to the PC from the mains by the UPS (usually through a
mechanical relay). There's no power loss in the UPS. PC efficiency is
80% or better, which is the overall efficiency of the system.
  - While mains are out (rarely):
DC from the battery is converted to AC at maybe 75% efficiency or
better. The PC converts this back to DC at 80% or better. UPS 75% and
PC 80% is 60% overall.

With a 48VDC output UPS powered by mains AC:
  - While on mains (most of the time):
UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
The 48VDC PC power supplies above are 70% efficient but let's say we
find one that's 85%. UPS 85% and PC 85% is 72.25% overall.
  - While mains are out (rarely):
Battery supplies 48VDC directly to the PC. No power loss in the UPS.
PC power supply is 85% efficient, which is the overall efficiency of
the system.

So, given the above two systems, I'd rather use the AC output UPS,
which is at least 80% efficient most of the time but only 60% during
the short periods when the mains are out, as opposed to the DC output
UPS which is only about 72% efficient most of the time except briefly
85% while mains are out.

Note that I didn't factor in power required to charge and maintain the
battery, since it should be about the same in both cases.

-- 
Scott
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 15:41:41 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:41:41 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
 <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120612154141.GC32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:30:31AM -0400, Scott Allen wrote:
> On 11 June 2012 13:16, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > What you would want is:
> >
> > http://www.powerstream.com/DC-PC-48V.htm
> >
> > (or something similar)
> 
> Perhaps something similar but more efficient. From the above link:
> Efficiency 70% typical @48V DC Full Load

Yeah it could certainly be made more efficient.

> If you're feeding this from a DC output UPS that provides 48V
> converted from AC, your going to waste a lot of power when the mains
> are up, for the short time that you'd be running off the battery. In
> addition to the low efficiency of the above supplies, you have to
> factor in the UPS's efficiency for continuously converting the full
> power requirements of the PC, in addition to charging and maintaining
> the batteries.
> 
> Standard AC input power supplies in PCs are typically 80% efficient or better.
> 
> On 11 June 2012 10:31, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Yes, using a UPS to generate AC just to convert it back to DC is very
> > very stupid.  Yet everyone (almost) keeps doing it.
> 
> If the primary power that you have for your PC is 120VAC (we're
> talking the typical North American home here) then an AC output UPS
> isn't so stupid.

Efficiency wise, yes.  But it ought to be much cheaper to build a UPS on
the DC side for a computer.  I have once seen a PC that had a UPS built
in to the power supply system on the DC side.  I think it provided about
10 minutes of run time.

> With a standard 120VAC output UPS:
>   - While on mains (most of the time):
> AC is fed to the PC from the mains by the UPS (usually through a
> mechanical relay). There's no power loss in the UPS. PC efficiency is
> 80% or better, which is the overall efficiency of the system.
>   - While mains are out (rarely):
> DC from the battery is converted to AC at maybe 75% efficiency or
> better. The PC converts this back to DC at 80% or better. UPS 75% and
> PC 80% is 60% overall.
> 
> With a 48VDC output UPS powered by mains AC:
>   - While on mains (most of the time):
> UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
> The 48VDC PC power supplies above are 70% efficient but let's say we
> find one that's 85%. UPS 85% and PC 85% is 72.25% overall.
>   - While mains are out (rarely):
> Battery supplies 48VDC directly to the PC. No power loss in the UPS.
> PC power supply is 85% efficient, which is the overall efficiency of
> the system.
> 
> So, given the above two systems, I'd rather use the AC output UPS,
> which is at least 80% efficient most of the time but only 60% during
> the short periods when the mains are out, as opposed to the DC output
> UPS which is only about 72% efficient most of the time except briefly
> 85% while mains are out.
> 
> Note that I didn't factor in power required to charge and maintain the
> battery, since it should be about the same in both cases.

Of course many high end UPSs always run the PC on generated power since
it is cleaner (supposedly) than what comes from the wall.  I wonder how
much efficiency that costs.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 15:59:45 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:59:45 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>

Scott Allen wrote:
> With a 48VDC output UPS powered by mains AC:
>    - While on mains (most of the time):
> UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
> The 48VDC PC power supplies above are 70% efficient but let's say we
> find one that's 85%. UPS 85% and PC 85% is 72.25% overall.

Whether AC or DC supply to the power supply, there are two stages 
involved, conversion of AC to DC and then converting that DC to the 
required voltages through a switching converter/regulator.  I'd have to 
question why having both in the same package results in higher 
efficiencies of the order you claim.  Many "server farms" run on about 
200V DC or so and get better efficiencies than AC powered systems.  The 
rectified DC inside a typical power supply would be in the range 
approaching 170V.  The conversion of the high voltage DC to the voltages 
required by the computer should have about the same efficiency, no 
matter what the source, all else being equal.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 16:56:09 2012
From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:56:09 -0400
Subject: Micro Routers (Was:Raspberry PI (as router))
In-Reply-To: <20120612025426.GA12931-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org>

On 06/11/2012 10:54 PM, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 10:54:58PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell wrote
>
>> My only complaint is that the connectors are splayed all round the sides
>> of the board. If you use network, USB, video and sound, that's a cable
>> or two sticking out each side, which is messy.
>
>    If they came with 2 network connectors, they'd make wicked routers /
> proxies / gateways.
>

If your already running down that road, why not just add the second port 
with a USB to Ethernet adapter. I have two points for this:

1) Your never going to drive any local DSL or Cable Service hard enough 
to exceed the USB bandwidth.
2) The Rpi's on board Ethernet is already so there nothing extra to 
complain about a performance hit. (the phy is actually a ethernet/USB 
hub combo chip which is why the Model B has two USB ports over the Model A).

But, if you wanted to got this route I'd actually recommend the TP-Link 
TL-MR3020. 400Mhz MIPS, OpenWRT supported, Wired and Wireless-N 
connectivity and a USB port all for $40.

http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_1046_690&item_id=047186

Just throw a USB to Ethernet adapter on the USB port and you have your 
micro router ready to go today. A handful of us have been experimenting 
with them at the Hacklab and are finding them to be very functional.

-- 
Scott Sullivan
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 17:36:03 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 13:36:03 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <20120612154141.GC32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120612154141.GC32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsVjfK+GoBzyGjNY_ED93nMdYwv7o+wy7HZeLyhSU8OpmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 11:41, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Efficiency wise, yes. ?But it ought to be much cheaper to build a UPS on
> the DC side for a computer.

Somewhat cheaper, maybe. I wouldn't go so far as to say *much* cheaper.

You still need a battery, of course (or some other form of energy
storage), and a charging system for it.

Today's PCs require multiple voltages. These voltages need to be
fairly well regulated; typically better than the voltage discharge
curve of a battery. For cost effectiveness, it would be best that a
single battery be used, with a single output voltage. Therefore, you
still need circuitry similar to that in a PC's power supply to provide
the regulation and multiple voltages.

A good solution might be to have dual input capable PC power supplies.
They would accept both 120/240VAC and some standard DC voltage. The
power supplies would favour the AC input and automatically switch to
accepting DC when necessary, as with a standard UPS. Ideally, they
would have an additional standardised DC connector, or combination AC
and DC connector.

A UPS would then basically consist of just a battery and charging
system (and the necessary cabling). You could build this directly into
the PC or have a larger external system, allowing connection to
multiple PCs.

This would eliminate the cost of the AC inverter circuitry in existing
UPSs but possibly increase cost of the PC power supply.

Note that dual input supplies, like I described, already exist but
they're not common or standardised and generally not cheaper than
using an AC output UPS.
E.g.:
<http://www.nipron.com/dc_ups/>

> Of course many high end UPSs always run the PC on generated power since
> it is cleaner (supposedly) than what comes from the wall. ?I wonder how
> much efficiency that costs.

As well as supposedly cleaner power, these UPSs also provide
instantaneous switchover (since there really isn't a switchover). If
you're concerned about either of these, efficiency is a secondary
consideration.

There are also UPSs, that are a little higher end than the basic
models, that provide filtering and regulation for cleaner AC power,
but don't do continuous conversion. You can also get standalone
systems for cleaner AC (e.g. "Monster" power bars).

-- 
Scott
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 18:16:33 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:16:33 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FD76771.10901-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 11:59, James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Whether AC or DC supply to the power supply, there are two stages involved,
> conversion of AC to DC and then converting that DC to the required voltages
> through a switching converter/regulator. ?I'd have to question why having
> both in the same package results in higher efficiencies of the order you
> claim.

I showed some math backing my claim, but I had to estimate the
efficiency of converting 120VAC to 48VDC in the UPS (and I think I was
quite liberal at 85%). Show me the math that would have you question
my claim.

>?Many "server farms" run on about 200V DC or so and get better
> efficiencies than AC powered systems. ?The rectified DC inside a typical
> power supply would be in the range approaching 170V. ?The conversion of the
> high voltage DC to the voltages required by the computer should have about
> the same efficiency, no matter what the source, all else being equal.

How is that 200VDC produced? Is it regulated? Just rectifying AC is
quite efficient. It's chopping and changing to different voltages and
regulating that costs efficiency. Also, multiple conversions cost
efficiency.

-- 
Scott
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 18:27:14 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:27:14 -0400
Subject: Micro Routers (Was:Raspberry PI (as router))
In-Reply-To: <4FD774A9.8090305-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
 <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org>
 <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org>
Message-ID: <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 12:56:09PM -0400, Scott Sullivan wrote:
> If your already running down that road, why not just add the second
> port with a USB to Ethernet adapter. I have two points for this:

They suck.  That's why.  USB (other than 3.0) is highly CPU intensive
and certainly my past experience with USB ethernet adapters is that they
are just too slow and unreliable to bother with.

> 1) Your never going to drive any local DSL or Cable Service hard
> enough to exceed the USB bandwidth.
> 2) The Rpi's on board Ethernet is already so there nothing extra to
> complain about a performance hit. (the phy is actually a
> ethernet/USB hub combo chip which is why the Model B has two USB
> ports over the Model A).
> 
> But, if you wanted to got this route I'd actually recommend the
> TP-Link TL-MR3020. 400Mhz MIPS, OpenWRT supported, Wired and
> Wireless-N connectivity and a USB port all for $40.
> 
> http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_1046_690&item_id=047186
> 
> Just throw a USB to Ethernet adapter on the USB port and you have
> your micro router ready to go today. A handful of us have been
> experimenting with them at the Hacklab and are finding them to be
> very functional.

They are nothing like real network ports when it comes to efficiency
and performance.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 18:53:09 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:53:09 -0400
Subject: delving into ebook readers
In-Reply-To: <20120611143526.GZ32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608174502.GA29627@watson-wilson.ca>
	<CAJfQhuJF-+F7LzX+xbB9jkhsLFiFXTTaQkoxY7AzNEDMypMR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611142131.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<4FD60105.3000606@rogers.com>
	<20120611143526.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsWLgk40Ae0yEYSb4L_rgBZSZjfufm9cyei2EFnu-8v7Vg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 June 2012 10:35, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> To me "surfing the web" isn't happening without a keyboard, and touch
> screens make lousy keyboards.
>
> Same for email obviously.

My Think Outside Stowaway bluetooth keyboard (Dell branded) works fine
with my Android tablet.
<http://www.mobiletechreview.com/tips/stowaway_Bluetooth_Keyboard.htm>

Alternatively, I can attach a full size bluetooth or USB keyboard.

If I want a mouse, any bluetooth or USB one will work.

-- 
Scott
--
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From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 20:14:57 2012
From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:14:57 -0400
Subject: Micro Routers (Was:Raspberry PI (as router))
In-Reply-To: <20120612182714.GD32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org> <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org> <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org>

On 06/12/2012 02:27 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 12:56:09PM -0400, Scott Sullivan wrote:
>> Just throw a USB to Ethernet adapter on the USB port and you have
>> your micro router ready to go today. A handful of us have been
>> experimenting with them at the Hacklab and are finding them to be
>> very functional.
>
> They are nothing like real network ports when it comes to efficiency
> and performance.
>

True. But when your connected to a DSL modem topping out at 6Mbps down 
and 800Kbps one will likely not care.

Lennat, you wouldn't happen to have any recommendations for testing the 
performance? iperf comes to mind, but that will only look at upd/tcp 
throughput.

-- 
Scott Sullivan
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 12 20:59:43 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:59:43 -0400
Subject: Micro Routers (Was:Raspberry PI (as router))
In-Reply-To: <4FD7A341.5000900-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com>
 <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org>
 <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org>
 <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org>
Message-ID: <20120612205943.GE32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 04:14:57PM -0400, Scott Sullivan wrote:
> True. But when your connected to a DSL modem topping out at 6Mbps
> down and 800Kbps one will likely not care.

My DSL is 25/7, so I might care.  Of course my router has 5 gigabit
ports on it (4 switched, one direct to CPU for WAN), so it isn't
a problem.

> Lennat, you wouldn't happen to have any recommendations for testing
> the performance? iperf comes to mind, but that will only look at
> upd/tcp throughput.

udp/tcp covers typical use.

I like nttcp for bandwidth testing.  fping can be brutal too.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 01:14:25 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:14:25 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>

Scott Allen wrote:
> On 12 June 2012 11:59, James Knott<james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>  wrote:
>> Whether AC or DC supply to the power supply, there are two stages involved,
>> conversion of AC to DC and then converting that DC to the required voltages
>> through a switching converter/regulator.  I'd have to question why having
>> both in the same package results in higher efficiencies of the order you
>> claim.
> I showed some math backing my claim, but I had to estimate the
> efficiency of converting 120VAC to 48VDC in the UPS (and I think I was
> quite liberal at 85%). Show me the math that would have you question
> my claim.

An AC supply has two stages, rectifying and converting/regulating.  A DC 
supply would have only the one stage, as rectifying wouldn't be 
necessary.  How can two stages be more efficient than one, particularly 
if the converting/regulating stage is essentially identical either way?
>>   Many "server farms" run on about 200V DC or so and get better
>> efficiencies than AC powered systems.  The rectified DC inside a typical
>> power supply would be in the range approaching 170V.  The conversion of the
>> high voltage DC to the voltages required by the computer should have about
>> the same efficiency, no matter what the source, all else being equal.
> How is that 200VDC produced? Is it regulated? Just rectifying AC is
> quite efficient. It's chopping and changing to different voltages and
> regulating that costs efficiency. Also, multiple conversions cost
> efficiency.
>
There would be large rectifiers and battery banks for the DC.  And yes, 
multiple conversions cost efficiency.  In a data center, UPS is a must.  
With AC supply, you rectify and then convert back to AC in the UPS, 
then, in the computer rectify again, covert back to AC for the converter 
and then rectify again.  Having a DC supply eliminates the first DC to 
AC and second AC to DC stages.

BTW, I read about this in an article about air conditioning savings in 
server sites that have high voltage DC supplies, rather than AC.  Those 
sites may consume 50 KW or more for running the computers and generate a 
lot of heat in the process.

--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 01:18:33 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:18:33 -0400
Subject: Micro Routers (Was:Raspberry PI (as router))
In-Reply-To: <4FD7A341.5000900-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org> <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org> <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org>
Message-ID: <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com>

Scott Sullivan wrote:
> True. But when your connected to a DSL modem topping out at 6Mbps down 
> and 800Kbps one will likely not care.

Rogers is offering up to 75 Mb/s down.

--
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From chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 01:20:38 2012
From: chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DAVID CHIPMAN)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Micro Routers (Was:Raspberry PI (as router))
In-Reply-To: <4FD7EA69.3010708-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org> <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org> <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org> <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

From: James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:18:33 PM
Subject: Re: Micro Routers (Was: [TLUG]: Raspberry PI (as router))

Scott Sullivan wrote:
> True. But when your connected to a DSL modem topping out at 6Mbps down and 800Kbps one will likely not care.

Rogers is offering up to 75 Mb/s down.

You lucky dog you! That may be what they're offering, but do you get that?

-David

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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 01:34:20 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:34:20 -0400
Subject: Micro Routers (Was:Raspberry PI (as router))
In-Reply-To: <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo-5a7jLq7PoN2vYMxfvLqCK1Z8N9CAUha/QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org> <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org> <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org> <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com> <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com>

DAVID CHIPMAN wrote:
> Rogers is offering up to 75 Mb/s down.
>
> You lucky dog you! That may be what they're offering, but do you get that?

I can't say, as I don't have that package.  However, in my experience 
what Rogers delivers is very close to what it promises.  A couple of 
years ago, the CBC compared several ISPs.  Rogers delivered what they 
promised, with Telus not too far behind.  On the other hand Bell was the 
worst.  As part of their test, they downloaded an Linux ISO and after 
several hours, Bell hadn't even finished, whereas Rogers took about 20 
minutes, IIRC.

--
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 01:48:22 2012
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:48:22 -0400
Subject: cell phone repair
Message-ID: <CADK3HHK9yiL_AAdoio2XxktfgQK5J3wP66_e4qF22R7hUNaW3w@mail.gmail.com>

I dropped my One X and the glass is cracked, recommendations on where
to get it fixed ?

Dave Cramer
--
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 01:58:05 2012
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:58:05 -0400
Subject: cell phone repair
In-Reply-To: <CADK3HHK9yiL_AAdoio2XxktfgQK5J3wP66_e4qF22R7hUNaW3w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CADK3HHK9yiL_AAdoio2XxktfgQK5J3wP66_e4qF22R7hUNaW3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD7F3AD.5010001@rogers.com>

On 12-06-12 09:48 PM, Dave Cramer wrote:

> I dropped my One X and the glass is cracked, recommendations on where
> to get it fixed ?
>

http://www.yyztech.ca/ming-wireless-dundas

They fixed up my Galaxy when the display died.

-- 
Stephen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 05:54:03 2012
From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:54:03 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was:Raspberry
 PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <4FD7EE1C.5090707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org> <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org> <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org> <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com> <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Even if Rogers does deliver what they're promising, it's not as good
as it sounds.

Their Ultimate Package[1] has 75 Mbps download speed, but a 250 GByte
cap. 75 Mbps is about 7.5 MBytes/s (accounting for start bits, stop
bits, and other bits), which gives you just under 10 hours to reach
your limit.  My month has more hours than that...

- --Bob

[1] http://www.rogers.com/web/link/hispeedBrowseFlowDefaultPlans
[2] 250 GBytes = 250,000 MBytes; (250,000/7.5)/60/60 = 9.25 hours

Bob Jonkman <bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>         http://sobac.com/sobac/
SOBAC Microcomputer Services              Phone: +1-519-669-0388
6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada  N3B 1L5  Cell: +1-519-635-9413
Software   ---   Office & Business Automation   ---   Consulting


On 06/12/2012 09:34 PM, James Knott wrote:
> DAVID CHIPMAN wrote:
>> Rogers is offering up to 75 Mb/s down.
>> 
>> You lucky dog you! That may be what they're offering, but do you
>> get that?
> 
> I can't say, as I don't have that package.  However, in my
> experience what Rogers delivers is very close to what it promises.
> A couple of years ago, the CBC compared several ISPs.  Rogers
> delivered what they promised, with Telus not too far behind.  On
> the other hand Bell was the worst.  As part of their test, they
> downloaded an Linux ISO and after several hours, Bell hadn't even
> finished, whereas Rogers took about 20 minutes, IIRC.
> 
> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings:
> http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text
> below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE:
> http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: GPG ensures message authenticity  and non-repudiability

iEYEARECAAYFAk/YKvcACgkQuRKJsNLM5erQDACfctvdU+mRp86/uUsfiRwy/POi
UzYAoL1nAUrNzAXPkVjipgO+GPZjTJ1T
=iKUt
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--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 12:22:33 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:22:33 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was: :
 Raspberry PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <4FD82AFB.8060309-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org> <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org> <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org> <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com> <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com> <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com>
Message-ID: <4FD88609.8070706@rogers.com>

Bob Jonkman wrote:
> accounting for start bits, stop bits, and other bits
????

Start & stop bits went out with dial up modems.  Ethernet uses 
synchronous communications, not async.  With async, each character was 
sent independently from the rest and contained it's own start and stop 
bits, so you'd have 1 start bit, 8 data bits and one stop bit (assuming 
ASCII at greater than 110 b/s).  With Ethernet, you have frames 
containing address info, data, check data and more, sent as one large 
block.  With Ethernet, the data portion is limited to 1500 bytes, but IP 
supports up to 65K bytes, IIRC.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 13:12:09 2012
From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:12:09 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was: :
 Raspberry PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <4FD88609.8070706-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A+PZ_aowEyU4tK80P2WhKwqtokVMSCuitsqjxc_sh3Wg@mail.gmail.com> <4FD40C82.2090506@gmail.com> <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org> <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org> <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org> <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com> <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com> <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com> <4FD88609.8070706@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4FD891A9.4060307@sobac.com>

:)  In Ethernet there's preamble bits, Ethernet framing header bits, IP
header bits, TCP header bits, application protocol header bits...  On
average, it still works out close enough to 1 byte of data for 10 bits
transmitted, depending on the size of the data payload. Close enough for
a for a back-of-the-envelope calculation, anyway.

Good to see the old technology is remembered not just by me, though.

--Bob.


On 06/13/2012 08:22 AM, James Knott wrote:
> Bob Jonkman wrote:
>> accounting for start bits, stop bits, and other bits
> ????
> 
> Start & stop bits went out with dial up modems.  Ethernet uses
> synchronous communications, not async.  With async, each character was
> sent independently from the rest and contained it's own start and stop
> bits, so you'd have 1 start bit, 8 data bits and one stop bit (assuming
> ASCII at greater than 110 b/s).  With Ethernet, you have frames
> containing address info, data, check data and more, sent as one large
> block.  With Ethernet, the data portion is limited to 1500 bytes, but IP
> supports up to 65K bytes, IIRC.
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 13:28:38 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:28:38 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FD7E971.3040807-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 21:14, James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> ?How can two stages be more efficient than one, particularly if the
> converting/regulating stage is essentially identical either way?

Who said anything about two stages being more efficient than one? Go
back and reread the post you are questioning. I'm saying that two
stages is more efficient than three.

Note that I was talking about the specific case where the user is
limited to a 120VAC source, which is on line, and either a 120VAC
output UPS is used, or a 48VDC output UPS is used.

My statement, that you quoted and questioned, was for the 48VDC output UPS:
-----
With a 48VDC output UPS powered by mains AC:
 - While on mains (most of the time):
UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
The 48VDC PC power supplies above are 70% efficient but let's say we
find one that's 85%. UPS 85% and PC 85% is 72.25% overall.
-----

There are three stages involved:
1. Rectification of 120VAC to DC in the UPS.
2. Conversion/regulation to 48VDC in the UPS.
3. Conversion/regulation to multiple voltages in the PC.

My statement for a 120VAC output UPS, which I claim is more efficient was:
-----
With a standard 120VAC output UPS:
 - While on mains (most of the time):
AC is fed to the PC from the mains by the UPS (usually through a
mechanical relay). There's no power loss in the UPS. PC efficiency is
80% or better, which is the overall efficiency of the system.
-----

There are two stages involved:
1. Rectification of 120VAC to DC in the PC.
2. Conversion/regulation to multiple voltages in the PC.

I was even generous and gave the DC input PC power supply 85%
efficiency. I gave the AC input PC power supply only 80% efficiency.

I agree that DC UPSs in data centre type environments can likely be
more efficient but, again, you quoted and questioned the statements
and math I gave for a home 120VAC environment.

-- 
Scott
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 14:19:05 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:19:05 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD8A159.8020203@rogers.com>

Scott Allen wrote:
> Who said anything about two stages being more efficient than one? Go
> back and reread the post you are questioning. I'm saying that two
> stages is more efficient than three.
>
> Note that I was talking about the specific case where the user is
> limited to a 120VAC source, which is on line, and either a 120VAC
> output UPS is used, or a 48VDC output UPS is used.
>
> My statement, that you quoted and questioned, was for the 48VDC output UPS:
> -----
> With a 48VDC output UPS powered by mains AC:
>   - While on mains (most of the time):
> UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
> The 48VDC PC power supplies above are 70% efficient but let's say we
> find one that's 85%. UPS 85% and PC 85% is 72.25% overall.

As I mentioned in another note, the high voltage DC in power supplies 
approaches 170V.  Why should a power supply that runs on AC and be more 
efficient than one that runs on a similar DC voltage?  What is it about 
that referenced DC supply that makes it so inefficient?  Why should the 
rectifiers in an AC supply be significantly more efficient than a 
separate rectifier?  Either way, you have to convert AC to DC and then 
back to high frequency AC.  Something about that DC power supply that 
was linked to doesn't make sense.  In this day & age, why is it so 
inefficient?

> UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
What is the conversion efficiency of the rectification part of the AC 
supply?  Why should a separate rectifier be significantly different


> Note that I was talking about the specific case where the user is
> limited to a 120VAC source, which is on line, and either a 120VAC
> output UPS is used, or a 48VDC output UPS is used.

An AC output UPS will have an additional stage to convert DC to AC.  The 
computer will then have an additional stage to convert that AC back to 
DC.  Even if UPS is not used, why should producing DC in a separate box 
be less efficient than when in the same power supply.






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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 14:31:46 2012
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:31:46 -0400
Subject: PC Microphones
Message-ID: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g@mail.gmail.com>

I am looking at a proof-of-concept project at work that calls for
recording audio (some voice instructions). The issue at the moment is
getting a microphone. Obviously I want it all, namely :

- Low cost
- Excellent voice quality (which might NOT be a good thing with my
voice :-( , but... if the proof of concept works I'll hopefully be
able to get someone else to read the matterial...).

So, what do I get at a low cost that avoids the worst pitfalls?

Thanks.

Colin McGregor
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From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 14:39:55 2012
From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:39:55 -0400
Subject: PC Microphones
In-Reply-To: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CE2C5476406D45A18BD5F21B74C7F556@mylesbraithwaite.com>

On Wednesday, 13 June, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Colin McGregor wrote:
> I am looking at a proof-of-concept project at work that calls for
> recording audio (some voice instructions). The issue at the moment is
> getting a microphone. Obviously I want it all, namely :
> 
> - Low cost
> - Excellent voice quality (which might NOT be a good thing with my
> voice :-( , but... if the proof of concept works I'll hopefully be
> able to get someone else to read the matterial...).
> 
> So, what do I get at a low cost that avoids the worst pitfalls?
> 


I am a fan of Blue Microphones <http://www.bluemic.com (http://www.bluemic.com/)>. But they aren't cheap. The Snowflake (which is in their portable line) cost around $60. In my experience they work pretty much seamlessly on Linux (I have a Yeti and Snowball).

-- 
Myles Braithwaite
http://mylesbraithwaite.com | me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org



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From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 14:40:41 2012
From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:40:41 -0400
Subject: PC Microphones
In-Reply-To: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHieY7T7ZDRcESb18=4UFjXA6Cg2iMj+sWKL--CHCOMniFNqLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Colin McGregor <colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I am looking at a proof-of-concept project at work that calls for
> recording audio (some voice instructions). The issue at the moment is
> getting a microphone. Obviously I want it all, namely :
>
> - Low cost
> - Excellent voice quality (which might NOT be a good thing with my
> voice :-( , but... if the proof of concept works I'll hopefully be
> able to get someone else to read the matterial...).
>
> So, what do I get at a low cost that avoids the worst pitfalls?
>

We started a PoC in our company that had voice-over audio and we
started at the $50 and had to throw it away. Don't expect to spend
less than $150 . The cheapest you can get for a decent quality is
either a Yeti or a Snowball, and they are both in that price range. We
got a Yeti and IMHO it has the same quality sound as a Sure at a
fraction of the price. I have not personally tried the snowball but
people say it's pretty good. Both are avail at the Staples in Yonge
near Front.


> Thanks.
>
> Colin McGregor
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 14:42:40 2012
From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:42:40 -0400
Subject: PC Microphones
In-Reply-To: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD8A6E0.7060905@gmail.com>

i had a similar need and got a
shure  beta  58A
it is very good, and surprisingly inexpensive.

-tl

On 06/13/2012 10:31 AM, Colin McGregor wrote:
> I am looking at a proof-of-concept project at work that calls for
> recording audio (some voice instructions). The issue at the moment is
> getting a microphone. Obviously I want it all, namely :
>
> - Low cost
> - Excellent voice quality (which might NOT be a good thing with my
> voice :-( , but... if the proof of concept works I'll hopefully be
> able to get someone else to read the matterial...).
>
> So, what do I get at a low cost that avoids the worst pitfalls?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Colin McGregor
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 14:45:08 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:45:08 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>

Scott Allen wrote:
> AC is fed to the PC from the mains by the UPS (usually through a
> mechanical relay)

How often does that happen?  The relay will cause a brief interruption 
of power that's sufficient to reboot computers.  That sort of device 
will also not protect against short term hits, transients etc.  Many 
years ago, when I was a computer tech, one of the systems I worked on 
was for Air Canada.  That system had a huge UPS and lots of batteries.  
The UPS was run constantly to provide power to the computer sytem.  That 
building, at 151 Front St. W. also had an older generation of "UPS" 
where the incoming AC ran motor/alternator sets, with a diesel engine & 
huge, 8 ton flywheel, so that there would be no interruption to the AC 
supply.  When the power failed, a clutch connected the diesel and the 
flywheel started the it, while maintaining AC output.  The hits caused 
by switched in UPS could not be tolerated in that environment.  There 
was also stand by power in that building that was switched in on power 
failure, but computers and telecom gear were never run on it.

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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 14:45:23 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:45:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: boxes that might be of interest
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206130215250.815@redclaw.mimosa.com>

After Scott's talk last night, I mentioned some of these boxes.  He asked 
for some links.  I thought I might as well pass them on to the list too.

Note: I've not been careful to get the best links, just the easiest for me 
to put my hands on.

No longer that interesting TV boxes.  These run Linux but as appliances:
There are modders communities for each of these.  Not enough GPU 
horsepower for OpenGL so they will probably never run XBMC.

WD TV Live

Patriot Box Office Core Media Player:
<http://www.patriotmemory.com/products/detailp.jsp?prodline=6&catid=69&prodgroupid=159&id=895&type=20>

Pivos AIOS HD Media Center
(The manufacturer's site seems to need Flash so I'm left out.)
<http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=44_567&item_id=042811>


The next generation runs Android 2.x and so may be more powerful:

Patriot Box Office Alpine
<http://www.patriotmemory.com/products/detailp.jsp?prodline=6&catid=69&prodgroupid=159&id=1172&type=20>
<http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=44_567&item_id=047717>

Pivos XIOS DS Media Box Powered by Android 2.3
<http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=44_567&item_id=048549>


Cute little PCs:
These are kind of like netbooks without displays, but they have decent GPUs.
Sadly, netbooks are often cheaper, sometimes even netbooks with decent GPUs.

The AMD E-350 has some strong points.  Unfortunately the Linux support
for the GPU has been a bit of a problem (possibly solved by now).

Acer Revo:
What I use.  I don't think they are for sale any more.
I run Ubuntu + MythTV + XBMC on them.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_Aspire_Revo>
Nice links from that article to comparable devices.

Foxconn nTA 350
We have three of these, but I only have one (my kids have the others)
(I found them cheap, but a one-time-only deal)
<http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856119050>

NCIX and CC both carry Zotac boxes:
<http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_124&item_id=044328>

Asus Sapphire Mini Edge PC:
Expensive, very small.
<http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_126&item_id=047110>
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From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 14:52:59 2012
From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:52:59 -0400
Subject: PC Microphones
In-Reply-To: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <339C8AEC-FF4C-48F1-8E5D-C7B10F6C762C@gmail.com>

You can get excellent quality from a cheap mic. Dan Snaith (Caribou/Manitoba) used to use one of those $5 computer mics to record his studio albums. So what's your budget?

There are a bunch of podcasting mics that will work. What costs money is audio shielding (for pops and clicks) and noise management. You can avoid much of the noise problems and mic power by using a USB mic. 

Pretty much every microphone you'll buy will have the tiny Panasonic modules you can buy for a few cents each. The testing, matching, wiring and casing is what costs money. 

There's a local guy who constructs nice kit at good prices. Find him as CHURCH AUDIO on eBay. You'll know if you've found him as everything he writes is in all caps

Cheers
 Stewart--
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From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 22:16:38 2012
From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:16:38 -0400
Subject: cell phone repair
In-Reply-To: <4FD7F3AD.5010001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CADK3HHK9yiL_AAdoio2XxktfgQK5J3wP66_e4qF22R7hUNaW3w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7F3AD.5010001@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAAu3GP1jg-B0HCw5TvHZ5oWBk_AbiqiF2HjkUTeQn7E+zeF3Ng@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.techknowspace.com/?mod=content_repair_computers

Cool site I have no knowledge of their service

On Tue, Jun 12, 201
http://www.techknowspace.com/?mod=content_repair_computers2 at 9:58 PM,
Stephen <stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On 12-06-12 09:48 PM, Dave Cramer wrote:
>
>  I dropped my One X and the glass is cracked, recommendations on where
>> to get it fixed ?
>>
>>
> http://www.yyztech.ca/ming-**wireless-dundas<http://www.yyztech.ca/ming-wireless-dundas>
>
> They fixed up my Galaxy when the display died.
>
> --
> Stephen
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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>



-- 
http://drpcdr.ca
http://jobcircle.ca
416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 13 23:15:06 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:15:06 -0400
Subject: cell phone repair
In-Reply-To: <CADK3HHK9yiL_AAdoio2XxktfgQK5J3wP66_e4qF22R7hUNaW3w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CADK3HHK9yiL_AAdoio2XxktfgQK5J3wP66_e4qF22R7hUNaW3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+6rsNR0Jm=Z0PixBSRnLFhH5E+Y+aOwjaQWwbWbiPPgGw@mail.gmail.com>

Dave,

You will mostly have to buy a new screen,  and that will cost you around
120 dollars

I would recommend these guys, I did a great job fixing nexus one sometimes
back.

http://www.yyztech.ca/gamerama

William
On Jun 12, 2012 9:49 PM, "Dave Cramer" <davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I dropped my One X and the glass is cracked, recommendations on where
> to get it fixed ?
>
> Dave Cramer
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 00:44:53 2012
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:44:53 -0400
Subject: cell phone repair
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+6rsNR0Jm=Z0PixBSRnLFhH5E+Y+aOwjaQWwbWbiPPgGw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CADK3HHK9yiL_AAdoio2XxktfgQK5J3wP66_e4qF22R7hUNaW3w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAE9rU+6rsNR0Jm=Z0PixBSRnLFhH5E+Y+aOwjaQWwbWbiPPgGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADK3HHLhHEdvBmQJvPKrvGct0ZzKZrmkGCHiXnNQjGprRgc37Q@mail.gmail.com>

Actually it is just the glass that is cracked I ordered one on eBay for 30
bucks will let you know how it goes

Dave Cramer
On Jun 13, 2012 7:15 PM, "William Muriithi" <william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
wrote:

> Dave,
>
> You will mostly have to buy a new screen,  and that will cost you around
> 120 dollars
>
> I would recommend these guys, I did a great job fixing nexus one sometimes
> back.
>
> http://www.yyztech.ca/gamerama
>
> William
> On Jun 12, 2012 9:49 PM, "Dave Cramer" <davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> I dropped my One X and the glass is cracked, recommendations on where
>> to get it fixed ?
>>
>> Dave Cramer
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>
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From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 01:25:41 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:25:41 -0400
Subject: File manager recommendation?
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF5PoFc1p90ZhaLdNmHgeY=qHGESrHc+RP3MSMjY0pcRrg@mail.gmail.com>

For some reason Gnome is broken on my system right now, so for the
time being I'm using LXDE, which isn't too bad. Unfortunately, though,
it uses PCManFM as a file manager, which is just terrible. I have
never used such a retarded FM. Nautilus is messed up along with Gnome,
so is there something similar to Nautilus in the meantime? Something
that recognizes network drives without handholding and doesn't show
files and directories in some random order?

Thanks!

-- 
Thomas Milne
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 02:36:08 2012
From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:36:08 -0400
Subject: File manager recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF5PoFc1p90ZhaLdNmHgeY=qHGESrHc+RP3MSMjY0pcRrg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5PoFc1p90ZhaLdNmHgeY=qHGESrHc+RP3MSMjY0pcRrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACa31mDQHFUTH_4YYrrN4L98rvosEnMmsaW1m9QUEZOGXcKPLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Thomas Milne
<thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> For some reason Gnome is broken on my system right now, so for the
> time being I'm using LXDE, which isn't too bad. Unfortunately, though,
> it uses PCManFM as a file manager, which is just terrible. I have
> never used such a retarded FM. Nautilus is messed up along with Gnome,
> so is there something similar to Nautilus in the meantime? Something
> that recognizes network drives without handholding and doesn't show
> files and directories in some random order?

Maybe give Thunar - the Xfce file manager - a try?

-- 
? ? ? ? ?http://www.circuidipity.com
? .~. ?/
? /V\
?//? \\
/(??? )\
?^`~`^
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 04:15:17 2012
From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 00:15:17 -0400
Subject: PC Microphones
In-Reply-To: <CE2C5476406D45A18BD5F21B74C7F556-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_A5O+yQf6VErA=1aQ0nv-k_3SDUP4rQ2aVsmPCOrP1E5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CE2C5476406D45A18BD5F21B74C7F556@mylesbraithwaite.com>
Message-ID: <20120614041517.GF962@amber>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:39:55AM -0400, Myles Braithwaite wrote:

> I am a fan of Blue Microphones <http://www.bluemic.com (http://www.bluemic.com/)>. But they aren't cheap. The Snowflake (which is in their portable line) cost around $60. In my experience they work pretty much seamlessly on Linux (I have a Yeti and Snowball).

Do you have any views about the Yeti vs. the Yeti Pro?

-- 
Peter King			 	peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
Department of Philosophy
170 St. George Street #521
The University of Toronto		    (416)-978-4951 ofc
Toronto, ON  M5R 2M8
       CANADA

http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/

=========================================================================
GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC  36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42
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From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 05:42:33 2012
From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 01:42:33 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
Message-ID: <20120614054234.50600@gmx.com>

A few side issues here may be muddling the picture and making complex internal PSUs seem clunky, contrasting positive plain statistics.

Doing all the conversion inside the computer case adds more heat to the system; of course, this matters more with smaller form factors. There's the prospect of what if power outage rates were a lot worse. If the power was already out, DC input would facilitate being able to plug a simple battery to power the system. Perhaps these sorts of things just make a PC with a DC plug just intuitively appear less obtuse.

Also, having joint DC production for many devices should be good for efficiency. This is probably something that contributes a bit in the datacenters. Another thing that could influence it would be having some of the power conversion further away, even if every stage of conversion is exactly as efficient, air conditioning power may still be getting saved.

On 12 June 2012 11:41, Lennart Sorensen
<lsorense at ...> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:30:31AM -0400, Scott Allen wrote:
> > On 11 June 2012 13:16, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > What you would want is:
> > >
> > > http://www.powerstream.com/DC-PC-48V.htm
> > >
> > > (or something similar)
> > 
> > Perhaps something similar but more efficient. From the above link:
> > Efficiency 70% typical @48V DC Full Load
> 
> Yeah it could certainly be made more efficient.
> 
> > If you're feeding this from a DC output UPS that provides 48V
> > converted from AC, your going to waste a lot of power when the mains
> > are up, for the short time that you'd be running off the battery. In
> > addition to the low efficiency of the above supplies, you have to
> > factor in the UPS's efficiency for continuously converting the full
> > power requirements of the PC, in addition to charging and maintaining
> > the batteries.
> > 
> > Standard AC input power supplies in PCs are typically 80% efficient or better.
> > 
> > On 11 June 2012 10:31, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > Yes, using a UPS to generate AC just to convert it back to DC is very
> > > very stupid. Yet everyone (almost) keeps doing it.
> > 
> > If the primary power that you have for your PC is 120VAC (we're
> > talking the typical North American home here) then an AC output UPS
> > isn't so stupid.
> 
> Efficiency wise, yes. But it ought to be much cheaper to build a UPS on
> the DC side for a computer. I have once seen a PC that had a UPS built
> in to the power supply system on the DC side. I think it provided about
> 10 minutes of run time.
> 
> > With a standard 120VAC output UPS:
> > - While on mains (most of the time):
> > AC is fed to the PC from the mains by the UPS (usually through a
> > mechanical relay). There's no power loss in the UPS. PC efficiency is
> > 80% or better, which is the overall efficiency of the system.
> > - While mains are out (rarely):
> > DC from the battery is converted to AC at maybe 75% efficiency or
> > better. The PC converts this back to DC at 80% or better. UPS 75% and
> > PC 80% is 60% overall.
> > 
> > With a 48VDC output UPS powered by mains AC:
> > - While on mains (most of the time):
> > UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
> > The 48VDC PC power supplies above are 70% efficient but let's say we
> > find one that's 85%. UPS 85% and PC 85% is 72.25% overall.
> > - While mains are out (rarely):
> > Battery supplies 48VDC directly to the PC. No power loss in the UPS.
> > PC power supply is 85% efficient, which is the overall efficiency of
> > the system.
> > 
> > So, given the above two systems, I'd rather use the AC output UPS,
> > which is at least 80% efficient most of the time but only 60% during
> > the short periods when the mains are out, as opposed to the DC output
> > UPS which is only about 72% efficient most of the time except briefly
> > 85% while mains are out.
> > 
> > Note that I didn't factor in power required to charge and maintain the
> > battery, since it should be about the same in both cases.
> 
> Of course many high end UPSs always run the PC on generated power since
> it is cleaner (supposedly) than what comes from the wall. I wonder how
> much efficiency that costs.
> 
> -- 
> Len Sorensen

--
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From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 06:08:53 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 02:08:53 -0400
Subject: File manager recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CACa31mDQHFUTH_4YYrrN4L98rvosEnMmsaW1m9QUEZOGXcKPLg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5PoFc1p90ZhaLdNmHgeY=qHGESrHc+RP3MSMjY0pcRrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACa31mDQHFUTH_4YYrrN4L98rvosEnMmsaW1m9QUEZOGXcKPLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF698AMNPV8+T45x2mhJ=jG95MRKigqgzz2sJLL=zgoFWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Daniel Wayne Armstrong
<daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Thomas Milne
> <thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> For some reason Gnome is broken on my system right now, so for the
>> time being I'm using LXDE, which isn't too bad. Unfortunately, though,
>> it uses PCManFM as a file manager, which is just terrible. I have
>> never used such a retarded FM. Nautilus is messed up along with Gnome,
>> so is there something similar to Nautilus in the meantime? Something
>> that recognizes network drives without handholding and doesn't show
>> files and directories in some random order?
>
> Maybe give Thunar - the Xfce file manager - a try?
>

Awesome, I totally forgot about Thunar. Thanks :-)

-- 
Thomas Milne
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 13:18:35 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:18:35 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FD8A159.8020203-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A159.8020203@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsWP=2MwiyVmitX0zK-9M+cmSApkEV_2CRe+0+QagU2BCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 June 2012 10:19, James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> As I mentioned in another note, the high voltage DC in power supplies
> approaches 170V. ?Why should a power supply that runs on AC and be more
> efficient than one that runs on a similar DC voltage? ?What is it about that
> referenced DC supply that makes it so inefficient?

It's not a similar DC voltage. The AC input supply rectifies 120VAC to
170VDC. The DC input supply (that you're questioning my reasoning
about) requires 48VDC.

> What is it about that referenced DC supply
> that makes it so inefficient?

I don't know why the supply that Lennart referenced is so inefficient.
That's why I bumped it up to 85% for my calculations. And again, I
used only 80% for the 120VAC input supply. So, my calculations assume
a DC input supply that is more efficient than an AC input supply.

>> UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
>
> What is the conversion efficiency of the rectification part of the AC
> supply? ?Why should a separate rectifier be significantly different

We're talking about 120VAC to 48VDC. It's not just rectification. We
have to get the voltage down to 48VDC. I Assumed that this would be
done by a switching supply in the UPS, since the voltage would have to
be regulated to charge the battery, hence my 85% efficiency estimate.

If the PC supply accepted a fairly large voltage swing, you could get
away with just a 120VAC to 48VAC transformer then rectify and filter
it (and then just regulate the battery charger circuit). I don't know
how efficient the AC transformer would be but we're now less efficient
than just strait rectification to 170VDC. Also, a transformer that
could provide the 500 or more watts required for a typical UPS would
be big, heavy and possibly expensive.

>> Note that I was talking about the specific case where the user is
>> limited to a 120VAC source, which is on line, and either a 120VAC
>> output UPS is used, or a 48VDC output UPS is used.
>
> An AC output UPS will have an additional stage to convert DC to AC. ?The
> computer will then have an additional stage to convert that AC back to DC.

Read my statement that you quoted above. I said "which is on line".
The mains are up. For the AC output UPS the AC is just fed strait
through (I presumed via a mechanical relay). There's no conversions
taking place in the UPS and therefore no losses in the UPS.

> ?Even if UPS is not used, why should producing DC in a separate box be less
> efficient than when in the same power supply.

Again, in the UPS (or other separate box) we have to bring the voltage
down to 48VDC. Inside the AC input PC power supply we just rectify to
170VDC.

-- 
Scott
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 13:38:20 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:38:20 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FD8A774.2050201-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 June 2012 10:45, James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> AC is fed to the PC from the mains by the UPS (usually through a
>> mechanical relay)
>
> How often does that happen? ?The relay will cause a brief interruption of
> power that's sufficient to reboot computers.

Note the statement that I made in my original post, leading into the
paragraph that you're questioning:
"If the primary power that you have for your PC is 120VAC (we're
talking the typical North American home here) then an AC output UPS
isn't so stupid."

Emphasis on "we're talking the typical North American home here", thus
assuming a typical small retail UPS.

I have five of this type of UPS here at home:
- APC Personal Powercell 170W
- APC Back-UPS ES 350
- APC Back-UPS ES 500
- APC Smart-UPS 700
- Belkin 750VA

The APC Smarts-UPS provides true sine output and is more intended for
busness/industrial use.

Every one of these uses a mechanical relay to switch from line to battery.

-- 
Scott
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 14:19:57 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:19:57 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsWP=2MwiyVmitX0zK-9M+cmSApkEV_2CRe+0+QagU2BCQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A159.8020203@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWP=2MwiyVmitX0zK-9M+cmSApkEV_2CRe+0+QagU2BCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD9F30D.20205@rogers.com>

Scott Allen wrote:
> It's not a similar DC voltage. The AC input supply rectifies 120VAC to
> 170VDC. The DC input supply (that you're questioning my reasoning
> about) requires 48VDC.
> We're talking about 120VAC to 48VDC. It's not just rectification. We
> have to get the voltage down to 48VDC. I Assumed that this would be
> done by a switching supply in the UPS, since the voltage would have to
> be regulated to charge the battery, hence my 85% efficiency estimate.
>
> If the PC supply accepted a fairly large voltage swing, you could get
> away with just a 120VAC to 48VAC transformer then rectify and filter
> it (and then just regulate the battery charger circuit). I don't know
> how efficient the AC transformer would be but we're now less efficient
> than just strait rectification to 170VDC. Also, a transformer that
> could provide the 500 or more watts required for a typical UPS would
> be big, heavy and possibly expensive.

As I mentioned, large data centers use high voltage DC for this, whereas 
telecom runs on -48V.  In the high voltage DC supplies, there'd be 
little difference in the converter/regulator section, compared with AC 
supplies.  With 48V, it would be tailored for the higher current, lower 
voltage, but otherwise similar.  As for transformers, AC supplies 
rectify the AC to high voltage DC and use that to power the 
converter/regulator,.  You'd have a high frequency transformer 
regardless of the input supply, though -48v supply would require a 
transformer with heavier wire, but fewer turns in the primary.  
Eitherway, efficiency would be similar.  Where there is a significant 
difference is in the DC distribution within the site, where you'd need 
larger gauge wire to avoid resistance losses at 48v.  Modern rectifiers 
are much more efficient than they used to be, with switching supplies 
commonly used, as with many other power supplies.  Rectifiers intended 
for this service will also have multiple AC inputs and permit multiple 
rectifiers on the same battery bank for redundancy.  They'll also often 
run on 3 phase power, which makes filtering easier.

--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 14:32:17 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:32:17 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD9F5F1.2000906@rogers.com>

Scott Allen wrote:
> Emphasis on "we're talking the typical North American home here", thus
> assuming a typical small retail UPS.

I was referring to industrial systems, as used in telecom and data 
centers where all UPS is truly that.  No relays to switch output.  One 
example I came across a few years ago was at the new headquarters for 
the Kingston police.  Their UPS, made by Liebert IIRC, was a few 
cabinets about 5' high.  It provided power for all their communications 
equipment and computers.  In that environment, you do not want any hits 
that could even briefly interfere with operations.  Same thing, back 
when I was at Unitel/CNCP/CNT.  UPS meant just that, uninteruptable.  
There were no hits cause by switching on power failure.
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 14:51:54 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 07:51:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1339685514.17650.YahooMailNeo@web113414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>



> From: Scott Allen <mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>
> I have five of this type of UPS here at home:
> - APC Personal Powercell 170W
> - APC Back-UPS ES 350
> - APC Back-UPS ES 500
> - APC Smart-UPS 700
> - Belkin 750VA

Anything to complain about APC ES 350?? It's the cheapest APC,
and good enough for my need.
--
William

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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 15:16:48 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:16:48 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FD9F5F1.2000906-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD9F5F1.2000906@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsUuKDxZamBSW=O8E-7fOWWJ=ViGEaRozV0-JyKEbAbrVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 June 2012 10:32, James Knott <james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Scott Allen wrote:
>>
>> Emphasis on "we're talking the typical North American home here", thus
>> assuming a typical small retail UPS.
>
>
> I was referring to industrial systems, as used in telecom and data centers
> where all UPS is truly that. ?No relays to switch output.

Fine, but your statement that started this whole discussion between
you and me was:
"I'd have to question why having both in the same package results in
higher efficiencies of the order you claim."

Which I assumed was referring to the only thing that you quoted from my message:
Scott Allen wrote:
    With a 48VDC output UPS powered by mains AC:
      - While on mains (most of the time):
    UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
    The 48VDC PC power supplies above are 70% efficient but let's say we
    find one that's 85%. UPS 85% and PC 85% is 72.25% overall.

as compared to my given calculations for an AC output UPS.

Given the terms that I had spelled out: that I was talking about a
home system and my stated assumption that the AC output UPS has no
loss while the line is up (due to using a relay), what, exactly, about
my claim are you questioning?

If you're arguing the fact that PC/UPS systems using DC supplies in
the PC can be more efficient than feeding AC to the PCs, then you
should have said something more like:
"Your claims are valid, for a small home UPS/PC setup, but in other
situations DC powered systems can be more efficient."
rather than questioning my claim.

I would then have agreed with you.

-- 
Scott
--
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 15:30:11 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:30:11 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <1339685514.17650.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339685514.17650.YahooMailNeo@web113414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsUpWonYHg14=xNFWTq3wExhMjiQB0vy_vUMOWrEzqq3dw@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 June 2012 10:51, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Anything to complain about APC ES 350?? It's the cheapest APC,
> and good enough for my need.

I'm not currently using it. It has only been used for my Mother's VCR,
which had a habit of losing its clock and timer settings after even a
momentary power loss. There were no problems with it in that
situation. It saved many a need to reprogram the VCR.

Its big brother, the APC ES 500 has worked fine on my PC and monitor
for many years, although it hasn't been required much since I leave
the system powered off when not in use and haven't had many power
failures when the system has been running.

-- 
Scott
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 16:10:41 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:10:41 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FD8A159.8020203-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
 <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD8A159.8020203@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120614161041.GF32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:19:05AM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> Scott Allen wrote:
> >Who said anything about two stages being more efficient than one? Go
> >back and reread the post you are questioning. I'm saying that two
> >stages is more efficient than three.
> >
> >Note that I was talking about the specific case where the user is
> >limited to a 120VAC source, which is on line, and either a 120VAC
> >output UPS is used, or a 48VDC output UPS is used.
> >
> >My statement, that you quoted and questioned, was for the 48VDC output UPS:
> >-----
> >With a 48VDC output UPS powered by mains AC:
> >  - While on mains (most of the time):
> >UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
> >The 48VDC PC power supplies above are 70% efficient but let's say we
> >find one that's 85%. UPS 85% and PC 85% is 72.25% overall.
> 
> As I mentioned in another note, the high voltage DC in power
> supplies approaches 170V.  Why should a power supply that runs on AC
> and be more efficient than one that runs on a similar DC voltage?
> What is it about that referenced DC supply that makes it so
> inefficient?  Why should the rectifiers in an AC supply be
> significantly more efficient than a separate rectifier?  Either way,
> you have to convert AC to DC and then back to high frequency AC.
> Something about that DC power supply that was linked to doesn't make
> sense.  In this day & age, why is it so inefficient?
> 
> >UPS needs to convert 120VAC to 48VDC at, let's say, 85% efficiency.
> What is the conversion efficiency of the rectification part of the
> AC supply?  Why should a separate rectifier be significantly
> different
> 
> 
> >Note that I was talking about the specific case where the user is
> >limited to a 120VAC source, which is on line, and either a 120VAC
> >output UPS is used, or a 48VDC output UPS is used.
> 
> An AC output UPS will have an additional stage to convert DC to AC.
> The computer will then have an additional stage to convert that AC
> back to DC.  Even if UPS is not used, why should producing DC in a
> separate box be less efficient than when in the same power supply.

This one seems to be 96% efficient: http://www.mini-box.com/picoPSU-160-XT

A bit small I suppose.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 16:13:31 2012
From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:13:31 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com>

On 14/06/12 9:38 AM, Scott Allen wrote:
> - APC Personal Powercell 170W

I have one (or something equivalent) sitting around, with the battery 
dead (or something like that - beeping sound, LED colours - can't 
remember the details). I looked into getting a replacement battery, but 
they cost almost as much as a new unit. Any suggestions? It's about the 
size and weight of a brick :)
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 16:18:38 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:18:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Scott Allen <mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| It's not a similar DC voltage. The AC input supply rectifies 120VAC to
| 170VDC. The DC input supply (that you're questioning my reasoning
| about) requires 48VDC.

Something that may be confusing to the casual reader:

Normally, when one says 5V DC, one assumes that it is 5V all the time
(within, say, 5%).  Rectified AC is not like that at all.

The 170VDC you are mentioning is really the function abs(sin(t)) and
bounces between zero and 170 volts.

Note that the original 120V AC actually goes up to 170 volts too!
That's because "120V AC" means that the root means square of the
voltage is 120V but the peak is 170V
	120V * sqrt(2) = 169.7... V


Moving on to guesswork (informed by insufficient knowledge)...

I *assume* that 48V DC that was being referred to is "flat".  So
converting rectified 120V AC to this 48V DC is similar to what I think
a modern PC power supply does:

	Under circuit control, feed the input power intermittently
	into a capacitor, in such a way that the capacitor voltage
	remains close to and above the target voltage.  That output
	goes to a regulator to chop it down to that actual target.

The input to the power supply has a wide latitude.  Different kinds
of inputs may affect efficiency.

Anyway, going through a 48V DC intermediate would seem to double
inefficiency: two levels of power supply.  But I'm no expert and the
devil is in the details.  I think 48V DC is just a telecom convention
dating back to the days before transistors.  Is there anything
technical to recommend it now?

| > What is it about that referenced DC supply
| > that makes it so inefficient?

That is a question I'm mildly interested in.  I'd be more interested
if I thought I could do anything with the information :-)

Current good PC power supplies are about 80% efficient or a little
better.  What is the source of inefficiency?  How do vendors work to
improve efficiency?

I think that each power semiconductor that the power passes though drops 
the voltage a bit, eating the corresponding power (voltage drop * 
current).

The regulator eats any over-voltage to produce the nice fixed output 
voltage.  So the closer the input is to the desired output, the less needs 
to be eaten.

| From: Scott Allen <mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| I have five of this type of UPS here at home:
| - APC Personal Powercell 170W
| - APC Back-UPS ES 350
| - APC Back-UPS ES 500
| - APC Smart-UPS 700
| - Belkin 750VA

Note that each of these is rated/named by power output.  Why isn't
energy capacity mentioned?  When I read blurbs (not spec sheets) about
these UPS units, they give no KWh or equivalent rating.  Why is that?

I recently bought a replacement battery for an old UPS and was
surprised to find that it is used in a bunch of different UPS models,
including APC BackUPS 200, 250, 280, 300, 400, 500, 700 CS 350, 500 (I
could not find a good list).  Since I think that only one is used per
unit, I think that each of these has the same energy capacity!

My unit is a Back-UPS ES 500.  The replacement battery is called RBC2.  It 
was $38 at NCIX a month ago but now seems to be 44.25.  That's cheaper 
than a new UPS.
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 16:58:28 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:58:28 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsUcZj5tef_bD2RA5uqZfz9Qe7CYPm38-4H293qrq=oynA@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 June 2012 12:18, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> My unit is a Back-UPS ES 500. ?The replacement battery is called RBC2. ?It
> was $38 at NCIX a month ago but now seems to be 44.25. ?That's cheaper
> than a new UPS.

In addition to the ES 500, my APC Personal Powercell and Belkin 750VA
also use the same battery. It's a standard 12V 7Ah gel type sealed
lead acid battery (slightly higher Ah capacities are also available in
the same package). You can get them even cheaper at Sayal; about $25
to $28 as I recall.
<http://www.sayal.com/STORE/ActionIndexP.asp?ID=220029>

Note that these batteries are available with two different connector
widths but the wide connector used by APC will usually work with the
thinner tab that is more common on the batteries. It's a bit sloppy
but will still make good contact if you're careful. Adapters are
available to go the other way.

My ES 350 uses a smaller battery. The Smart-UPS 700 uses two 12V
batteries that are another different size (in series for 24V). All are
standard sizes available from various manufacturers and retailers.

-- 
Scott
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 16:58:29 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:58:29 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA1835.4090206@rogers.com>

D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> Anyway, going through a 48V DC intermediate would seem to double
> inefficiency: two levels of power supply.  But I'm no expert and the
> devil is in the details.  I think 48V DC is just a telecom convention
> dating back to the days before transistors.  Is there anything
> technical to recommend it now?

Modern power supplies use switching regulators, which greatly increase 
efficiency and reduce size, compared to older methods where a 60 Hz 
power transformer was used to reduce the line voltage to one a bit above 
the desired DC output.  That low voltage AC was then rectified, filtered 
and then regulated to the desired output.  Modern supplies take the AC 
line voltage and immediately rectify it to produce high voltage DC.  
That DC is then used to run a power oscillator that's connected to a 
transformer.  Since the oscillator can run at very high frequencies 
(several kilohertz), a much smaller, usually ferrite, core transformer 
can be used.  The output of the transformer is now rectified and 
filtered.  Since the frequency is so much higher, much smaller 
capacitors can be used for filtering than at 60 Hz.  These power 
supplies also use feedback to the oscillator to regulate the output 
voltage, instead of requiring the very inefficient linear regulators 
that were commonly used in the past.  So, from an efficiency 
perspective, it makes little difference whether the DC is high voltage, 
48v or other.  It's simply a matter of designing to the specs.

As for -48v, yes, it has been around for many years.  However, in any 
power situation, power is the product of voltage and current.  If you 
run a lower voltage, you need more current.  That won't make much of a 
difference if you have an AC power supply handy, but in a central 
office, the battery banks and rectifiers are often quite a distance from 
where the telecom equipment is located.  This means heavy cables to 
avoid losses and a lower voltage mean higher current and greater losses 
for the same size cable.

BTW, when Unitel had their main central office at 151 Front St. W., the 
-48v plant supplied about 6000 amps!  The connections from the battery 
rooms to the distribution bays consisted of 3 cables that were about the 
size of a man's thumb (000 or 0000 AWG depending on length).  Of course, 
that would be 3 each for -48v and return.


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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 17:11:19 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:11:19 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsXdxL_9oUxx2ymj9VTkvb=6oVyTgj9jJT1iktze_SXf-g@mail.gmail.com>

Small point:

On 14 June 2012 12:18, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> The 170VDC you are mentioning is really the function abs(sin(t)) and
> bounces between zero and 170 volts.

I think both James and I were assuming that the 170VDC was also
"flat", being filtered with capacitors so that it was a constant
170VDC with a little bit of ripple voltage (but unregulated).

-- 
Scott
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 17:26:33 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:26:33 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsXYxx4h0Z_Q2DzDZcsv2bMipgqfb0ZV1EWRQdh_bu-C=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 June 2012 12:18, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Anyway, going through a 48V DC intermediate would seem to double
> inefficiency: two levels of power supply.

Exactly the point I was trying to make originally when I tried to show
that (for home situations) sticking with a 120VAC output UPS would be
better than a DC output UPS, during times when the mains are up.

> But I'm no expert and the
> devil is in the details. ?I think 48V DC is just a telecom convention
> dating back to the days before transistors. ?Is there anything
> technical to recommend it now?

Not really. Multiples of 6V or 12V are desirable if standard if you
plan to use standard lead acid battery technology. However, higher
voltages may present problems, such as what Stewart Russell mentioned
earlier:

On 11 June 2012 11:57, Stewart Russell <scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Any domestic DC system much above 12V is going to be looked at askance
> by ULC and any other certification body. DC arcs don't quench, so the
> approvals people have traditionally considered DC to be a fire risk.
> This is changing, partly because domestic solar systems for MicroFIT
> are suddenly causing a whole lot of 600V DC systems to be installed on
> people's roofs.

-- 
Scott
--
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 17:44:28 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:44:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FDA0DAB.3010406-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <1339695868.10788.YahooMailNeo@web113414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Break it open, and duck-tape it on top of car battery? :-)



----- Original Message -----
> From: Yanni Chiu <yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>
> To: tlug at ss.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:13:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Which UPS?
> 
> On 14/06/12 9:38 AM, Scott Allen wrote:
>>  - APC Personal Powercell 170W
> 
> I have one (or something equivalent) sitting around, with the battery dead (or 
> something like that - beeping sound, LED colours - can't remember the 
> details). I looked into getting a replacement battery, but they cost almost as 
> much as a new unit. Any suggestions? It's about the size and weight of a 
> brick :)
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 18:06:27 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:06:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsXdxL_9oUxx2ymj9VTkvb=6oVyTgj9jJT1iktze_SXf-g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com> <CAArSzsXdxL_9oUxx2ymj9VTkvb=6oVyTgj9jJT1iktze_SXf-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141352070.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Scott Allen <mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| Small point:
| 
| On 14 June 2012 12:18, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
| > The 170VDC you are mentioning is really the function abs(sin(t)) and
| > bounces between zero and 170 volts.
| 
| I think both James and I were assuming that the 170VDC was also
| "flat", being filtered with capacitors so that it was a constant
| 170VDC with a little bit of ripple voltage (but unregulated).

I think it is an interesting point.  Thanks.  Remember: I don't really
know much about this.

If the rectified DC is flat (filtered by capacitors) would it not be
closer to 120V than 170V?  Would the filters not do some kind of
averaging (technically: mean function)?  The RMS of the
simply-rectified voltage would still be 120 (the quadratic mean).

(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square> explains RMS.)

My intuition: you can put a diode between the raw rectified voltage
and the capacitor.  But if you keep the capacitor at 170V, there are
only two instants in the cycle where current can flow into the
capacitor.  If the capacitor is at 120V, current can flow in in two large
portions of the cycle.  Without any diode, I imagine the charge in the
capacitor being some kind of average.

I emphasize again: I don't know what I'm talking about and would
welcome corrections.
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 18:22:41 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:22:41 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsXdxL_9oUxx2ymj9VTkvb=6oVyTgj9jJT1iktze_SXf-g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com> <CAArSzsXdxL_9oUxx2ymj9VTkvb=6oVyTgj9jJT1iktze_SXf-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA2BF1.4030409@rogers.com>

Scott Allen wrote:
> On 14 June 2012 12:18, D. Hugh Redelmeier<hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>  wrote:
>> >  The 170VDC you are mentioning is really the function abs(sin(t)) and
>> >  bounces between zero and 170 volts.
> I think both James and I were assuming that the 170VDC was also
> "flat", being filtered with capacitors so that it was a constant
> 170VDC with a little bit of ripple voltage (but unregulated).

Actually, I was using terms like "approaching", because I didn't have 
enough info to provide hard numbers.

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 18:23:34 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:23:34 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsXYxx4h0Z_Q2DzDZcsv2bMipgqfb0ZV1EWRQdh_bu-C=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com> <CAArSzsXYxx4h0Z_Q2DzDZcsv2bMipgqfb0ZV1EWRQdh_bu-C=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA2C26.6040507@rogers.com>

Scott Allen wrote:
> Not really. Multiples of 6V or 12V are desirable if standard if you
> plan to use standard lead acid battery technology. However, higher
> voltages may present problems, such as what Stewart Russell mentioned
> earlier:

In large installations, as I described, strings of individual cells are 
common.

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 18:30:14 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:30:14 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141352070.16191-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com> <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com> <CAArSzsXdxL_9oUxx2ymj9VTkvb=6oVyTgj9jJT1iktze_SXf-g@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141352070.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA2DB6.9010700@rogers.com>

D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> | I think both James and I were assuming that the 170VDC was also
> | "flat", being filtered with capacitors so that it was a constant
> | 170VDC with a little bit of ripple voltage (but unregulated).
>
> I think it is an interesting point.  Thanks.  Remember: I don't really
> know much about this.
>
> If the rectified DC is flat (filtered by capacitors) would it not be
> closer to 120V than 170V?  Would the filters not do some kind of
> averaging (technically: mean function)?  The RMS of the
> simply-rectified voltage would still be 120 (the quadratic mean).
>
> (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square>  explains RMS.)
>
> My intuition: you can put a diode between the raw rectified voltage
> and the capacitor.  But if you keep the capacitor at 170V, there are
> only two instants in the cycle where current can flow into the
> capacitor.  If the capacitor is at 120V, current can flow in in two large
> portions of the cycle.  Without any diode, I imagine the charge in the
> capacitor being some kind of average.
>
> I emphasize again: I don't know what I'm talking about and would
> welcome corrections.

It's not quite that simple.  Depending on load, you may have a lot or a 
small amount of ripple, depending on how fast the capacitor is 
discharged.  If you were to look at it with a scope, you'd see the 
waveform peak and then discharge to somepoint, before charging again.  
Without any load, voltage would settle at the peak input voltage  Also, 
with switching power supplies, filtering that first stage is not that 
critical, as the variable output is easily handled by the following stages.
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 18:41:56 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:41:56 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120614184156.GG32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 09:38:20AM -0400, Scott Allen wrote:
> Note the statement that I made in my original post, leading into the
> paragraph that you're questioning:
> "If the primary power that you have for your PC is 120VAC (we're
> talking the typical North American home here) then an AC output UPS
> isn't so stupid."
> 
> Emphasis on "we're talking the typical North American home here", thus
> assuming a typical small retail UPS.
> 
> I have five of this type of UPS here at home:
> - APC Personal Powercell 170W
> - APC Back-UPS ES 350
> - APC Back-UPS ES 500
> - APC Smart-UPS 700
> - Belkin 750VA
> 
> The APC Smarts-UPS provides true sine output and is more intended for
> busness/industrial use.

And high efficiency PC power supplies that require sine wave input
(which is most of the high efficiency ones).  80% is not high efficiency
by that measure.  85+% is.  Some power supplies will turn off if you
feed them some of the simulated sine wave power that cheap UPSs generate.
Some will simply make a lot of noise as they try to compensate for the
"weird" input in the active power factor correction circuit.

> Every one of these uses a mechanical relay to switch from line to battery.

I have an APC Smart-UPS 1500, Smart-UPS 750XL, and a Back-UPS 850ES.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 18:43:09 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:43:09 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <1339685514.17650.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1339685514.17650.YahooMailNeo@web113414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120614184309.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 07:51:54AM -0700, William Park wrote:
> Anything to complain about APC ES 350?? It's the cheapest APC,
> and good enough for my need.

As long as your max power needs are around 200 to 250W, it should work.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 18:45:01 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:45:01 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FDA0DAB.3010406-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120614184501.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 12:13:31PM -0400, Yanni Chiu wrote:
> I have one (or something equivalent) sitting around, with the
> battery dead (or something like that - beeping sound, LED colours -
> can't remember the details). I looked into getting a replacement
> battery, but they cost almost as much as a new unit. Any
> suggestions? It's about the size and weight of a brick :)

I have gotten replacement batteries from greytech, which often has non
APC replacement batteries for less than the original APC battery costs.
Usually about 30% cheaper.  Seems worth it to me.

New battery for Smart-UPS 1500 is about $120 or so, versus $600 for a
new unit.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 18:58:14 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:58:14 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20120614185814.GJ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 12:18:38PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> Something that may be confusing to the casual reader:
> 
> Normally, when one says 5V DC, one assumes that it is 5V all the time
> (within, say, 5%).  Rectified AC is not like that at all.
> 
> The 170VDC you are mentioning is really the function abs(sin(t)) and
> bounces between zero and 170 volts.
> 
> Note that the original 120V AC actually goes up to 170 volts too!
> That's because "120V AC" means that the root means square of the
> voltage is 120V but the peak is 170V
> 	120V * sqrt(2) = 169.7... V
> 
> 
> Moving on to guesswork (informed by insufficient knowledge)...
> 
> I *assume* that 48V DC that was being referred to is "flat".  So
> converting rectified 120V AC to this 48V DC is similar to what I think
> a modern PC power supply does:
> 
> 	Under circuit control, feed the input power intermittently
> 	into a capacitor, in such a way that the capacitor voltage
> 	remains close to and above the target voltage.  That output
> 	goes to a regulator to chop it down to that actual target.
> 
> The input to the power supply has a wide latitude.  Different kinds
> of inputs may affect efficiency.
> 
> Anyway, going through a 48V DC intermediate would seem to double
> inefficiency: two levels of power supply.  But I'm no expert and the
> devil is in the details.  I think 48V DC is just a telecom convention
> dating back to the days before transistors.  Is there anything
> technical to recommend it now?

It is 4 car batteries in series.

> That is a question I'm mildly interested in.  I'd be more interested
> if I thought I could do anything with the information :-)
> 
> Current good PC power supplies are about 80% efficient or a little
> better.  What is the source of inefficiency?  How do vendors work to
> improve efficiency?
> 
> I think that each power semiconductor that the power passes though drops 
> the voltage a bit, eating the corresponding power (voltage drop * 
> current).
> 
> The regulator eats any over-voltage to produce the nice fixed output 
> voltage.  So the closer the input is to the desired output, the less needs 
> to be eaten.

I don't think any modern power supply does that anymore.  Way too
inefficient to just regulate down by throwing away the excess as heat.
Everything is pretty much switching mode power supplies these days
that make sure to generate the voltage they want in the first place.

Old power supplies were so much simpler.  Use a transformer to drop
input voltage to just above what you wanted, rectify it, then regulate
it down to desired value by dissipating the excess.  Not very efficient,
but simple.

Apparently the Apple II was probably the first computer with a switching
mode power supply.

> Note that each of these is rated/named by power output.  Why isn't
> energy capacity mentioned?  When I read blurbs (not spec sheets) about
> these UPS units, they give no KWh or equivalent rating.  Why is that?
> 
> I recently bought a replacement battery for an old UPS and was
> surprised to find that it is used in a bunch of different UPS models,
> including APC BackUPS 200, 250, 280, 300, 400, 500, 700 CS 350, 500 (I
> could not find a good list).  Since I think that only one is used per
> unit, I think that each of these has the same energy capacity!
> 
> My unit is a Back-UPS ES 500.  The replacement battery is called RBC2.  It 
> was $38 at NCIX a month ago but now seems to be 44.25.  That's cheaper 
> than a new UPS.

Certainly.  Battery replacements are usually worth it.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 18:56:02 2012
From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:56:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: File manager recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF5PoFc1p90ZhaLdNmHgeY=qHGESrHc+RP3MSMjY0pcRrg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5PoFc1p90ZhaLdNmHgeY=qHGESrHc+RP3MSMjY0pcRrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LMD.2.00.1206141453440.7041@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012, Thomas Milne wrote:

> For some reason Gnome is broken on my system right now, so for the
> time being I'm using LXDE, which isn't too bad. Unfortunately, though,
> it uses PCManFM as a file manager, which is just terrible. I have
> never used such a retarded FM. Nautilus is messed up along with Gnome,
> so is there something similar to Nautilus in the meantime? Something
> that recognizes network drives without handholding and doesn't show
> files and directories in some random order?

    The only file manager I've found acceptable is gentoo
    (http://www.obsession.se/gentoo/)

    No other (execpt mc which doesn't count) gives real file sizes;
    they all use the so-called human-readable format.

-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson, <http://cfajohnson.com/>
    Author:
    Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 19:02:10 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:02:10 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141352070.16191-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120608185501.50610@gmx.com>
	<20120611143131.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	<CAArSzsXdxL_9oUxx2ymj9VTkvb=6oVyTgj9jJT1iktze_SXf-g@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141352070.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsVLutqGBR1R+_hxrvzLVeP9yDrb2YiHwOGwVZVNSAAqNQ@mail.gmail.com>

James responded to this while I was composing this message, but I'll continue.

On 14 June 2012 14:06, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> If the rectified DC is flat (filtered by capacitors) would it not be
> closer to 120V than 170V? ?Would the filters not do some kind of
> averaging (technically: mean function)? ?The RMS of the
> simply-rectified voltage would still be 120 (the quadratic mean).

No. You will get 170VDC peak with the voltage dipping slightly on each
cycle (called ripple).

I'll try to explain it simply (but may not succeed).

A capacitor has a very low resistance when accepting charge current
(and when discharging that current into a load). If you can provide
the current, it can be charged up to a given voltage almost instantly.
An AC line can provide a comparatively large amount of current.

A capacitor has very low leakage. Once charged to a given voltage it
will maintain that voltage until something (a load) pulls current from
it.

Let's look at the case where there's no load:
The AC is rectified by a diode or diode bridge and fed to a capacitor.
On the first AC cycle, the capacitor's low resistance allows it to
draw as much current as required to follow the voltage and be charged
up to the peak of 170V. The diode(s) prevent any current from flowing
out of the capacitor back into the line when the voltage drops below
170V on the downward side of the cycle. With no load on the capacitor
the voltage on it just sits at 170V. (The voltage will drop ever so
slightly due to leakage within the capacitor but will be brought back
up to 170V on the peak of the next cycle.)

Now, if we add a small load to the capacitor the voltage will drop as
current is drawn from it. However if the load is small compared to the
size of the capacitor, the voltage will only drop slowly by a small
amount over the time of an AC cycle. The capacitor will then be fully
charged back to 170V at the peak of the next AC cycle.

The ratio of the size of the capacitor to the size of the load
determines the amount of ripple voltage (how low the voltage drops
below peak). Designers will make sure the capacitor is sufficiently
large to assure that the ripple voltage will never fall below the
minimum that the load can tolerate.

Note that the current on the line will not look anything like a sine
wave. Most of the current will only flow when charging the capacitor
back up from the low voltage of the ripple to the peak voltage

-- 
Scott
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 19:04:11 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:04:11 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsVLutqGBR1R+_hxrvzLVeP9yDrb2YiHwOGwVZVNSAAqNQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
 <CAArSzsXdxL_9oUxx2ymj9VTkvb=6oVyTgj9jJT1iktze_SXf-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141352070.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
 <CAArSzsVLutqGBR1R+_hxrvzLVeP9yDrb2YiHwOGwVZVNSAAqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120614190411.GK32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 03:02:10PM -0400, Scott Allen wrote:
> No. You will get 170VDC peak with the voltage dipping slightly on each
> cycle (called ripple).
> 
> I'll try to explain it simply (but may not succeed).
> 
> A capacitor has a very low resistance when accepting charge current
> (and when discharging that current into a load). If you can provide
> the current, it can be charged up to a given voltage almost instantly.
> An AC line can provide a comparatively large amount of current.
> 
> A capacitor has very low leakage. Once charged to a given voltage it
> will maintain that voltage until something (a load) pulls current from
> it.
> 
> Let's look at the case where there's no load:
> The AC is rectified by a diode or diode bridge and fed to a capacitor.
> On the first AC cycle, the capacitor's low resistance allows it to
> draw as much current as required to follow the voltage and be charged
> up to the peak of 170V. The diode(s) prevent any current from flowing
> out of the capacitor back into the line when the voltage drops below
> 170V on the downward side of the cycle. With no load on the capacitor
> the voltage on it just sits at 170V. (The voltage will drop ever so
> slightly due to leakage within the capacitor but will be brought back
> up to 170V on the peak of the next cycle.)
> 
> Now, if we add a small load to the capacitor the voltage will drop as
> current is drawn from it. However if the load is small compared to the
> size of the capacitor, the voltage will only drop slowly by a small
> amount over the time of an AC cycle. The capacitor will then be fully
> charged back to 170V at the peak of the next AC cycle.
> 
> The ratio of the size of the capacitor to the size of the load
> determines the amount of ripple voltage (how low the voltage drops
> below peak). Designers will make sure the capacitor is sufficiently
> large to assure that the ripple voltage will never fall below the
> minimum that the load can tolerate.
> 
> Note that the current on the line will not look anything like a sine
> wave. Most of the current will only flow when charging the capacitor
> back up from the low voltage of the ripple to the peak voltage

The utility would hate such a design.  Only drawing power at the peak
of the AC wave does not make them happy.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 19:09:04 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:09:04 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was: :
 Raspberry PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <4FD891A9.4060307-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org>
 <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org>
 <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org>
 <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com>
 <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com>
 <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com>
 <4FD88609.8070706@rogers.com>
 <4FD891A9.4060307@sobac.com>
Message-ID: <20120614190904.GL32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 09:12:09AM -0400, Bob Jonkman wrote:
> :)  In Ethernet there's preamble bits, Ethernet framing header bits, IP
> header bits, TCP header bits, application protocol header bits...  On
> average, it still works out close enough to 1 byte of data for 10 bits
> transmitted, depending on the size of the data payload. Close enough for
> a for a back-of-the-envelope calculation, anyway.
> 
> Good to see the old technology is remembered not just by me, though.

Well on my 25Mbit VDSL2 link, I often see 2800KB/s, so the 10:1 is
certainly becoming a bit pesimistic.  Not that 2500KB/s wouldn't be
sufficient for me to be happy.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 19:12:35 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:12:35 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <20120614190411.GK32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141120230.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	<CAArSzsXdxL_9oUxx2ymj9VTkvb=6oVyTgj9jJT1iktze_SXf-g@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206141352070.16191@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	<CAArSzsVLutqGBR1R+_hxrvzLVeP9yDrb2YiHwOGwVZVNSAAqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120614190411.GK32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsXEoPzsfNACiMO_fg5T3CXuE5A==M73bf3eKOVNy2VnWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 June 2012 15:04, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> The utility would hate such a design. ?Only drawing power at the peak
> of the AC wave does not make them happy.

Agreed. That's why modern supplies have power factor correction
circuitry, not just diode and capacitor rectification.

I was just trying to explain to Hugh why you get more or less constant
flat 170VDC when rectifying and filtering 120VAC using diodes and
capacitors, instead of 120VDC.

-- 
Scott
--
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From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 19:18:08 2012
From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:18:08 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was: :
 Raspberry PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <20120614190904.GL32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org> <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org> <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org> <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com> <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com> <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com> <4FD88609.8070706@rogers.com> <4FD891A9.4060307@sobac.com> <20120614190904.GL32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FDA38F0.8010208@sobac.com>

On 14/06/2012 3:09 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Well on my 25Mbit VDSL2 link, I often see 2800KB/s, so the 10:1 is
> certainly becoming a bit pesimistic.  Not that 2500KB/s wouldn't be
> sufficient for me to be happy.

I wonder if there's some level of compression being applied to lower 
levels of the stack, so that the application can actually report a 
higher throughput than the pipe is capable of delivering directly...

--Bob.
--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 20:10:21 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:10:21 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was: :
 Raspberry PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <4FDA38F0.8010208-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120612025426.GA12931@waltdnes.org> <4FD774A9.8090305@ss.org> <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org> <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com> <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com> <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com> <4FD88609.8070706@rogers.com> <4FD891A9.4060307@sobac.com> <20120614190904.GL32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FDA38F0.8010208@sobac.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA452D.40007@rogers.com>

Bob Jonkman wrote:
> On 14/06/2012 3:09 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>> Well on my 25Mbit VDSL2 link, I often see 2800KB/s, so the 10:1 is
>> certainly becoming a bit pesimistic.  Not that 2500KB/s wouldn't be
>> sufficient for me to be happy.
>
> I wonder if there's some level of compression being applied to lower 
> levels of the stack, so that the application can actually report a 
> higher throughput than the pipe is capable of delivering directly...

Back in the dial up days, there was Van Jacobson header compression on 
PPP connections, but I haven't heard anything similar on Ethernet.  
However, Rogers has a speed boost function where you initially start out 
at a higher rate and then work down to your rated speed (actually 
bandwidth).
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 20:34:57 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:34:57 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was: :
 Raspberry PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <4FDA38F0.8010208-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org>
 <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com>
 <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com>
 <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com>
 <4FD88609.8070706@rogers.com>
 <4FD891A9.4060307@sobac.com>
 <20120614190904.GL32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FDA38F0.8010208@sobac.com>
Message-ID: <20120614203457.GM32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 03:18:08PM -0400, Bob Jonkman wrote:
> I wonder if there's some level of compression being applied to lower
> levels of the stack, so that the application can actually report a
> higher throughput than the pipe is capable of delivering directly...

Well there is PPP involved which could be doing compression, although I
am usually transfering stuff that isn't going to get any more compressed.

25Mbit=25000000bits=3125000bytes so even with a bit of overhead, using
1500 byte packets (or close to it) for http transfers, there really
doesn't seem to be any reason it shouldn't be close to 3000KB/s.

I believe PPP adds 8 bytes to a packet.  Ethernet header would be another
14 bytes, so a 1500 byte packet going over the VDSL2 PPPoE link should
be 1522 bytes.  If I scale by 1500/1522, I get 3079KB/s rather than
4125KB/s, so not much overhead there.

I just ran a dist-upgrade and hit 2856 kB/s download speed, although
the connection wasn't completely idle at the time.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 20:35:44 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:35:44 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was: :
 Raspberry PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <20120614203457.GM32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org>
 <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com>
 <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com>
 <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com>
 <4FD88609.8070706@rogers.com>
 <4FD891A9.4060307@sobac.com>
 <20120614190904.GL32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FDA38F0.8010208@sobac.com>
 <20120614203457.GM32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20120614203544.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 04:34:57PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Well there is PPP involved which could be doing compression, although I
> am usually transfering stuff that isn't going to get any more compressed.
> 
> 25Mbit=25000000bits=3125000bytes so even with a bit of overhead, using
> 1500 byte packets (or close to it) for http transfers, there really
> doesn't seem to be any reason it shouldn't be close to 3000KB/s.
> 
> I believe PPP adds 8 bytes to a packet.  Ethernet header would be another
> 14 bytes, so a 1500 byte packet going over the VDSL2 PPPoE link should
> be 1522 bytes.  If I scale by 1500/1522, I get 3079KB/s rather than
> 4125KB/s, so not much overhead there.

3125KB/s that is.  Oops.

> I just ran a dist-upgrade and hit 2856 kB/s download speed, although
> the connection wasn't completely idle at the time.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 20:40:36 2012
From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:40:36 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <20120614184501.GI32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com> <20120614184501.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FDA4C44.6000005@rogers.com>

On 14/06/12 2:45 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>
> I have gotten replacement batteries from greytech, which often has non
> APC replacement batteries for less than the original APC battery costs.
> Usually about 30% cheaper.  Seems worth it to me.
>
> New battery for Smart-UPS 1500 is about $120 or so, versus $600 for a
> new unit.

You left off the model number I quoted:
- APC Personal Powercell 170W

I couldn't find a description of it, but based on the "Personal" "170W", 
I think it's similar to what I had. I got it 50% off the ~$100 
"original" price from Staples. The best price I could find for a 
replacement battery was about $40, but I had to buy two batteries, else 
pay more per unit.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 20:43:30 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:43:30 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was: :
 Raspberry PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <20120614203457.GM32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120612182714.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FD7A341.5000900@ss.org> <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com> <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com> <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com> <4FD88609.8070706@rogers.com> <4FD891A9.4060307@sobac.com> <20120614190904.GL32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FDA38F0.8010208@sobac.com> <20120614203457.GM32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FDA4CF2.3010404@rogers.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 03:18:08PM -0400, Bob Jonkman wrote:
>> >  I wonder if there's some level of compression being applied to lower
>> >  levels of the stack, so that the application can actually report a
>> >  higher throughput than the pipe is capable of delivering directly...
> Well there is PPP involved which could be doing compression, although I
> am usually transfering stuff that isn't going to get any more compressed.
>
> 25Mbit=25000000bits=3125000bytes so even with a bit of overhead, using
> 1500 byte packets (or close to it) for http transfers, there really
> doesn't seem to be any reason it shouldn't be close to 3000KB/s.
>
> I believe PPP adds 8 bytes to a packet.  Ethernet header would be another
> 14 bytes, so a 1500 byte packet going over the VDSL2 PPPoE link should
> be 1522 bytes.  If I scale by 1500/1522, I get 3079KB/s rather than
> 4125KB/s, so not much overhead there.
>
> I just ran a dist-upgrade and hit 2856 kB/s download speed, although
> the connection wasn't completely idle at the time.

On ADSL, the MTU is 1492, not 1500 bytes, with the PPP header occupying 
the remaining 8.  Also, ADSL is very dependent on distance from the 
DSLAM and also cable quality.  Of course, there may be other issues at 
the server or along the route to it.

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 20:58:15 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:58:15 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FDA4C44.6000005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com>
 <20120614184501.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FDA4C44.6000005@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120614205815.GO32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 04:40:36PM -0400, Yanni Chiu wrote:
> You left off the model number I quoted:
> - APC Personal Powercell 170W
> 
> I couldn't find a description of it, but based on the "Personal"
> "170W", I think it's similar to what I had. I got it 50% off the
> ~$100 "original" price from Staples. The best price I could find for
> a replacement battery was about $40, but I had to buy two batteries,
> else pay more per unit.

Well I paid $200 for my Smart-UPS 1500 from Dell on a nice sale, but I
sure can't buy a new one for that price.

I find it odd I can't even find the personal powercell on APC's website.
How old is that thing?

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 20:59:44 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:59:44 -0400
Subject: What Rogers call 'service' [was: Micro Routers (Was: :
 Raspberry PI (as router))]
In-Reply-To: <4FDA4CF2.3010404-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FD7EA69.3010708@rogers.com>
 <1339550438.13416.YahooMailNeo@web88602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4FD7EE1C.5090707@rogers.com>
 <4FD82AFB.8060309@sobac.com>
 <4FD88609.8070706@rogers.com>
 <4FD891A9.4060307@sobac.com>
 <20120614190904.GL32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FDA38F0.8010208@sobac.com>
 <20120614203457.GM32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FDA4CF2.3010404@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120614205944.GP32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 04:43:30PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> On ADSL, the MTU is 1492, not 1500 bytes, with the PPP header
> occupying the remaining 8.  Also, ADSL is very dependent on distance
> from the DSLAM and also cable quality.  Of course, there may be
> other issues at the server or along the route to it.

Sure, although it isn't ADSL in this case, it is VDSL2, and distance is
pretty much a non issue.  The DSLAM is in a cabinet down the street not
back at the CO.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 21:05:39 2012
From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:05:39 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <20120614205815.GO32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com> <20120614184501.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FDA4C44.6000005@rogers.com> <20120614205815.GO32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FDA5223.9050000@rogers.com>

On 14/06/12 4:58 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>
> I find it odd I can't even find the personal powercell on APC's website.
> How old is that thing?

The thing I have is more than 10 years old, and it worked for about 5 
years, maybe more.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 21:08:15 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:08:15 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FDA5223.9050000-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
 <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com>
 <20120614184501.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FDA4C44.6000005@rogers.com>
 <20120614205815.GO32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FDA5223.9050000@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120614210815.GQ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 05:05:39PM -0400, Yanni Chiu wrote:
> The thing I have is more than 10 years old, and it worked for about
> 5 years, maybe more.

Oh OK.

I did find a bunch of places in the US selling batteries for $20US each.
Shipping might be pricey though.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 22:45:47 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 18:45:47 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FDA4C44.6000005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com>
	<20120614184501.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<4FDA4C44.6000005@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsVMkh1jZXGWbbY-K2V08OMWR-E1S0peMOG2=2CyrTKmgg@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 June 2012 16:40, Yanni Chiu <yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> You left off the model number I quoted:
>
> - APC Personal Powercell 170W
>
> I couldn't find a description of it, but based on the "Personal" "170W", I
> think it's similar to what I had.

If it uses the same battery as my APC Personal Powercell 170W then its
the one that costs no more than $28 at Sayal Electronics, as I
previously mentioned.
<http://www.sayal.com/STORE/ActionIndexP.asp?ID=220029>

It's the one with
SAYAL STK#: BCM-539

-- 
Scott
--
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From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 14 23:42:00 2012
From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:42:00 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsVMkh1jZXGWbbY-K2V08OMWR-E1S0peMOG2=2CyrTKmgg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com> <4FD76771.10901@rogers.com> <CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com> <4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com> <CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com> <4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com> <20120614184501.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FDA4C44.6000005@rogers.com> <CAArSzsVMkh1jZXGWbbY-K2V08OMWR-E1S0peMOG2=2CyrTKmgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA76C8.2040509@rogers.com>

On 14/06/12 6:45 PM, Scott Allen wrote:
> If it uses the same battery as my APC Personal Powercell 170W then its
> the one that costs no more than $28

Yes, that looks like the battery shape I researched years ago. But, in 
my browser, I don't see any prices (nor any place to click to get the 
price either). So where are you getting the prices from?
--
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From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 15 00:39:33 2012
From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:39:33 -0400
Subject: File manager recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF5PoFc1p90ZhaLdNmHgeY=qHGESrHc+RP3MSMjY0pcRrg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5PoFc1p90ZhaLdNmHgeY=qHGESrHc+RP3MSMjY0pcRrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120614203933.9e59fe3c.hgibson@eol.ca>

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:25:41 -0400
Thomas Milne <thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> For some reason Gnome is broken on my system right now, so for the
> time being I'm using LXDE, which isn't too bad. Unfortunately, though,
> it uses PCManFM as a file manager, which is just terrible. I have
> never used such a retarded FM. Nautilus is messed up along with Gnome,
> so is there something similar to Nautilus in the meantime? Something
> that recognizes network drives without handholding and doesn't show
> files and directories in some random order?
> 
> Thanks!

Thomas,

   I am running pcmanfm under FVWM.  I think this file manager is part of XFCE.

   I am very happy with it.  It makes FVWM work.  

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org
howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org 
jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
--
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 15 11:12:35 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 07:12:35 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <4FDA76C8.2040509-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com>
	<20120614184501.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<4FDA4C44.6000005@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVMkh1jZXGWbbY-K2V08OMWR-E1S0peMOG2=2CyrTKmgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDA76C8.2040509@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsXVwrQ-xDD2yyCs-qVFQz-su7-SO9fr05AiP527M=-JGw@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 June 2012 19:42, Yanni Chiu <yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Yes, that looks like the battery shape I researched years ago. But, in my
> browser, I don't see any prices (nor any place to click to get the price
> either). So where are you getting the prices from?

You are correct that Sayal doesn't give there prices online. I've
bought one from there before, so that's how I know the price.

I can't recall the exact price but I'm quite sure it was less than
$28. It may have been $25.

-- 
Scott
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 15 11:18:25 2012
From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 07:18:25 -0400
Subject: Which UPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzsXVwrQ-xDD2yyCs-qVFQz-su7-SO9fr05AiP527M=-JGw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+6c19omPmsC_NjxsK8iOViDACverEJ_AbCb3aEmmzZPCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120611171624.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<CAArSzsVfqzYVm9g2UJCke3TprdqiNcMcpWZ-yaKL4fuSMVH2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD76771.10901@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsX1uXZA2hsY1wF20JKR_b2hdrzmVmBfFMN7NYMzW9B0jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD7E971.3040807@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVWJT2QJWo9nfEoFktY=Aa=2ZP2wJaJRx+q1Wcy6ArqWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8A774.2050201@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsWntXqE7Qg6FFs6T8vVh-a8Ae3gFjtymjcOB4QNf33NWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDA0DAB.3010406@rogers.com>
	<20120614184501.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<4FDA4C44.6000005@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsVMkh1jZXGWbbY-K2V08OMWR-E1S0peMOG2=2CyrTKmgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDA76C8.2040509@rogers.com>
	<CAArSzsXVwrQ-xDD2yyCs-qVFQz-su7-SO9fr05AiP527M=-JGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzsVb-dDKpLmudWOo19eO5qwGYR=x5AOkWOstm-Be8cVatA@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 June 2012 07:12, Scott Allen <mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> You are correct that Sayal doesn't give there prices online.

Sorry for the brain fart. That should have been "... their prices ..."

I get irritated when people improperly use there, their and they're.

Improper use of then and than irritates me even more.

-- 
Scott
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 15 15:03:55 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:03:55 -0400
Subject: BBC News - Linus Torvalds: Linux succeeded thanks to selfishness and trust
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF4m9pUMu_6sa48dR1vxmQRiFx3v4hr_-m6gFGj9gcbodA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18419231
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From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 15 15:22:54 2012
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:22:54 -0400
Subject: cell phone repair
In-Reply-To: <CADK3HHLhHEdvBmQJvPKrvGct0ZzKZrmkGCHiXnNQjGprRgc37Q-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CADK3HHK9yiL_AAdoio2XxktfgQK5J3wP66_e4qF22R7hUNaW3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+6rsNR0Jm=Z0PixBSRnLFhH5E+Y+aOwjaQWwbWbiPPgGw@mail.gmail.com> <CADK3HHLhHEdvBmQJvPKrvGct0ZzKZrmkGCHiXnNQjGprRgc37Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADK3HHKE_g1bhMTYBLWaKXHZtVJoUBrAdZwZLaFUu9K73i1NTA@mail.gmail.com>

Turns out Rogers gives you $125 towards out of warranty repairs once
ever so often. I have taken it to them to fix it. Anyone need a glass
for a One X ?

Dave Cramer


On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Dave Cramer <davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Actually it is just the glass that is cracked I ordered one on eBay for 30
> bucks will let you know how it goes
>
> Dave Cramer
>
> On Jun 13, 2012 7:15 PM, "William Muriithi" <william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> You will mostly have to buy a new screen,? and that will cost you around
>> 120 dollars
>>
>> I would recommend these guys, I did a great job fixing nexus one sometimes
>> back.
>>
>> http://www.yyztech.ca/gamerama
>>
>> William
>>
>> On Jun 12, 2012 9:49 PM, "Dave Cramer" <davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I dropped my One X and the glass is cracked, recommendations on where
>>> to get it fixed ?
>>>
>>> Dave Cramer
>>> --
>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 15 19:52:23 2012
From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:52:23 -0400
Subject: boxes that might be of interest
Message-ID: <20120615195224.243340@gmx.com>

Your caution about nettops fits very neatly in a slightly bigger context; mini ITX boxes seem like a pragmatic alternative, with generally identical architecture, but in far more tweakable packaging. So alltogether they're actually a good bit differentiated from netbooks.

In that set of form factors, there's also the new cedar view atom, like AMD fusion it addresses the old atoms' graphics weakness, oddly by replacing the intel GPU with a powerVR one(?a phone/tablet chip), and as a result linux drivers are also lacking, except it's far worse and they're entirely lacking and very likely to remain so, since intel will be switching back to an in house GPU.

> From: D. Hugh Redelmeier
> Sent: 06/13/12 10:45 AM
> To: Scott Sullivan, Toronto Linux Users Group
> Subject: [TLUG]: boxes that might be of interest
> 
> Cute little PCs:
> These are kind of like netbooks without displays, but they have decent GPUs.
> Sadly, netbooks are often cheaper, sometimes even netbooks with decent GPUs.
> 
> The AMD E-350 has some strong points. Unfortunately the Linux support
> for the GPU has been a bit of a problem (possibly solved by now).
> 
--
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 16 18:27:43 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 14:27:43 -0400
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimo8fL+K5-7-J=nEPfDvsrSTL_Sc_b+3pPaFSzY-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimo8fL+K5-7-J=nEPfDvsrSTL_Sc_b+3pPaFSzY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+5xWCEqLMgYG7_y5-2qbiA3mB2nUd4p5TdA0gaJG1HW5g@mail.gmail.com>

Christopher,

Read this article and thought of checking if TLUG  was close in
analysing the deal now that it is history

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18460636
>
> It seems rather suicidal to me, for Nokia. ?It makes their cellular
> business *highly* dependent on Microsoft, and vulnerable to any
> disadvantages that may accrue from changes in MSFT strategy. ?It
> reduces their profit margin, which, when they're "tops" at selling
> phones into low margin markets, could be fatal.

You were spot on in raising this as something they should  worry
about.  It looks like people never actually started to warm up to
Window phone 7 and this is now a Nokia problem too. The work suicide
and fatal now seem a tad appropriate

> I have little difficulty agreeing with the new CEO's claim that
> they're on a "burning platform."
> <http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/08/nokia-ceo-stephen-elop-rallies-troops-in-brutally-honest-burnin/>
>
> But even if you're "standing on a burning platform," you've got to
> look pretty carefully before you leap, lest there be outcomes even
> worse than getting singed. ?(Recall that on 9/11, there were folk that
> fled a "burning platform" to a many-story fatal fall.)
Ya, could actually be neat if there was a way of checking if their
problem could be less acute had they not changed their strategy.
Note, I still think they would be dying, just not too fast.  Think
they panicked and as you said leaped before looked
>
> I'm rather curious as to why, after consciously "open sourcing" parts
> of all their ongoing platforms (e.g. - Maemo, Symbian, Qt), it
> *didn't* appear that Android would fit well. ?There are certainly
> reasons of *pride* to resist a migration towards Android. ?(But such
> reasons would apply every bit as nicely to resisting a move to
> Windows.)
>
> I wonder if there's a massive amount of behind-the-scenes influence
> that mayn't ever be obvious.
Possibly, the risk were too high to call it an educated strategy.
Look more of a serious gamble or they were out of touch. Anyway, look
like they are done now as they don't seem to have plan B
> --
> http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
> --
William
--
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From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 16 19:03:54 2012
From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:03:54 -0400
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim5==BvP1CVQ3hzuQebT7fZSA9kBk_agH7kT2Sx-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=r0xJ4T3JHwRuVwrZe8Fkmm3RWwcgKUEXOkVkw@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTim5==BvP1CVQ3hzuQebT7fZSA9kBk_agH7kT2Sx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDCD89A.4040201@gmail.com>

On 11-02-20 11:27 PM, William Muriithi wrote:
...
>>  It's interesting how often such partners wind up bankrupt...
> On Microsoft defense here, I do not think they are going to follow
> their past trend.  Remember they are also in trouble, unlike the past
> when they were the kings. They are very likely to be supportive on
> Nokia as that would give Window 7 a chance.

Microsoft can make mistakes a lot longer than Nokia can remain solvent.

Sadly, I like(d) Nokia :-(


-Mike
--
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 16 19:58:23 2012
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:58:23 -0400
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+5xWCEqLMgYG7_y5-2qbiA3mB2nUd4p5TdA0gaJG1HW5g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimo8fL+K5-7-J=nEPfDvsrSTL_Sc_b+3pPaFSzY@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAE9rU+5xWCEqLMgYG7_y5-2qbiA3mB2nUd4p5TdA0gaJG1HW5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5UY7EfN-py2B5wFGoYijisFA4d6F-7_0goELXB9+r92+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, what seemed like a bad idea looks to be playing out badly.

Curiously, anyone I have heard that used Windows Mobile seem to like it
quite well, though not necessarily to the point of being prepared to pay
ANY price to get it.

The other curious observation I hear is that the "market" would like there
to be a third alternative to iOS and Android, so there is reason for mobile
carriers to want either WinMo or latest RIM to survive, though they
wouldn't much care which, and they'd prefer to only need to spend anything
supporting one, so one of them should win and the other fail quickly and
ease that support choice :-).
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From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 16 22:41:01 2012
From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:41:01 -0400
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <CAFNqd5UY7EfN-py2B5wFGoYijisFA4d6F-7_0goELXB9+r92+Q-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTimo8fL+K5-7-J=nEPfDvsrSTL_Sc_b+3pPaFSzY@mail.gmail.com>	<CAE9rU+5xWCEqLMgYG7_y5-2qbiA3mB2nUd4p5TdA0gaJG1HW5g@mail.gmail.com> <CAFNqd5UY7EfN-py2B5wFGoYijisFA4d6F-7_0goELXB9+r92+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDD0B7D.3020404@gmail.com>

If they didn't go with Win7/8 they would already probably be dead (if 
went with Android), so its relative. Nokia blew it years ago. They may  
have bottomed out
now, and advance on Win7/8 mobile going forward. They got caught 
snoozing starting in around 2005-2006 time frame.
I have a Win phone, and android. Haven't used the Win phone as a phone 
at all, my sim goes into my Android, I got the Win7 phone as a new 
signup to bell,
and already had my HTC Desire HD. I think the Win7 phone may have a 
slight advantage to very non-tech people (i.e. grandparents), but that's 
about it, but
i haven't installed the new upgrade yet. Win 7 is on my HTC 7, basically 
same phone as desire HD, and the Win7 is a bit flashier with some 
animations,etc.
Nokia has to hope there is demand for WinPhone with MS new 8, if not, 
then they are in extra big trouble. If they had of gone with Android they
would have competed with Samsung, and started to late, and their stock 
would have been bailed on even more by now, so they definitely had only the
one choice to make, go with MS. Decided on Android back when Samsung did 
(or prior), then different story.

-tl

On 06/16/2012 03:58 PM, Christopher Browne wrote:
>
> Yep, what seemed like a bad idea looks to be playing out badly.
>
> Curiously, anyone I have heard that used Windows Mobile seem to like 
> it quite well, though not necessarily to the point of being prepared 
> to pay ANY price to get it.
>
> The other curious observation I hear is that the "market" would like 
> there to be a third alternative to iOS and Android, so there is reason 
> for mobile carriers to want either WinMo or latest RIM to survive, 
> though they wouldn't much care which, and they'd prefer to only need 
> to spend anything supporting one, so one of them should win and the 
> other fail quickly and ease that support choice :-).
>

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 17 04:02:19 2012
From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 07:02:19 +0300
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <4FDD0B7D.3020404-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com>
 <AANLkTimo8fL+K5-7-J=nEPfDvsrSTL_Sc_b+3pPaFSzY@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+5xWCEqLMgYG7_y5-2qbiA3mB2nUd4p5TdA0gaJG1HW5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNqd5UY7EfN-py2B5wFGoYijisFA4d6F-7_0goELXB9+r92+Q@mail.gmail.com> <4FDD0B7D.3020404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACyhTRH8oUCii8hJugN9b1+D4n-i4nB69dQhOQEkXRB2MYgaPA@mail.gmail.com>

Nokia had the N900 which they discontinued, it ran GNU/Linux (based on
debian if I am not mistaken) they also developed with Intel another
distribution which they called Meego but to my knowledge did not sell any
phone with that system since at that time they signed the agreement with MS.
So if they did not sign with MS they would probably make some GNU/Linux
based phones.

-- 
Ori Idan


On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:41 AM, Ted <ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> If they didn't go with Win7/8 they would already probably be dead (if went
> with Android), so its relative. Nokia blew it years ago. They may  have
> bottomed out
> now, and advance on Win7/8 mobile going forward. They got caught snoozing
> starting in around 2005-2006 time frame.
> I have a Win phone, and android. Haven't used the Win phone as a phone at
> all, my sim goes into my Android, I got the Win7 phone as a new signup to
> bell,
> and already had my HTC Desire HD. I think the Win7 phone may have a slight
> advantage to very non-tech people (i.e. grandparents), but that's about it,
> but
> i haven't installed the new upgrade yet. Win 7 is on my HTC 7, basically
> same phone as desire HD, and the Win7 is a bit flashier with some
> animations,etc.
> Nokia has to hope there is demand for WinPhone with MS new 8, if not, then
> they are in extra big trouble. If they had of gone with Android they
> would have competed with Samsung, and started to late, and their stock
> would have been bailed on even more by now, so they definitely had only the
> one choice to make, go with MS. Decided on Android back when Samsung did
> (or prior), then different story.
>
> -tl
>
>
> On 06/16/2012 03:58 PM, Christopher Browne wrote:
>
>>
>> Yep, what seemed like a bad idea looks to be playing out badly.
>>
>> Curiously, anyone I have heard that used Windows Mobile seem to like it
>> quite well, though not necessarily to the point of being prepared to pay
>> ANY price to get it.
>>
>> The other curious observation I hear is that the "market" would like
>> there to be a third alternative to iOS and Android, so there is reason for
>> mobile carriers to want either WinMo or latest RIM to survive, though they
>> wouldn't much care which, and they'd prefer to only need to spend anything
>> supporting one, so one of them should win and the other fail quickly and
>> ease that support choice :-).
>>
>>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists<http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists>
>
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 17 13:45:18 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 09:45:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: odd problem with nouveau on 64-bit Ubuntu 12.04
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206170933160.5785@redclaw.mimosa.com>

I've not had great luck with Ubuntu 12.04.  I've tracked down one of my 
problems and am reporting it here to help others.

On my notebook's hardware (64-bit AMD, 3G of RAM, nVidia GeForce Go 6100 
video chipset), Ubuntu uses the nouveau X video driver.  It doesn't work.  

Symptom (after all updates): LightDM allows login but Unity desktop only 
manages to paint the background.  Lots of crud in dmesg and 
/var/log/Xorg.0.log.  To find this, I needed to ssh in.

There were other symptoms before I applied the updates.

Forcing the VESA driver (with kernel parameter "nomodeset") allowed me to 
log in and thus to do updates and install the ssh server.

This seems to be <https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46557>
That bug report suggests the work-around of adding the kernel parameter 
"mem=2g".  That worked for me.

Sure sounds like the nouveau driver has some sign-extension bug.

If you experience this, be sure to add your observations to the bugzilla 
entry.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 17 14:06:05 2012
From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:06:05 -0400
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <CACyhTRH8oUCii8hJugN9b1+D4n-i4nB69dQhOQEkXRB2MYgaPA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimo8fL+K5-7-J=nEPfDvsrSTL_Sc_b+3pPaFSzY@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAE9rU+5xWCEqLMgYG7_y5-2qbiA3mB2nUd4p5TdA0gaJG1HW5g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFNqd5UY7EfN-py2B5wFGoYijisFA4d6F-7_0goELXB9+r92+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDD0B7D.3020404@gmail.com>
	<CACyhTRH8oUCii8hJugN9b1+D4n-i4nB69dQhOQEkXRB2MYgaPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC4o_JLh11cdti=Z9kMRg_Pwgb0Jy174j8NGRwOaqJBntVsShQ@mail.gmail.com>

Nokia has one handset with Meego on it, the Nokia N9.  I have one and love
it.  It's super responsive, a nice UI that makes sense and has all the apps
I need on it.  Underneath it all is Debian.  No carriers in North America
have it, so I ordered it from Europe, but it is set up for pentaband GSM,
so it should work on any GSM network.  On Rogers, for data, I'm almost
always connected at "3.5G" speeds, which is Meego's way of saying HSDPA.

The N9 has been remarkably well received, and you can even dual boot
Android 4 on it, which runs like a dream.

http://swipe.nokia.com/

-jason

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Ori Idan <ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Nokia had the N900 which they discontinued, it ran GNU/Linux (based on
> debian if I am not mistaken) they also developed with Intel another
> distribution which they called Meego but to my knowledge did not sell any
> phone with that system since at that time they signed the agreement with MS.
> So if they did not sign with MS they would probably make some GNU/Linux
> based phones.
>
> --
> Ori Idan
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:41 AM, Ted <ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> If they didn't go with Win7/8 they would already probably be dead (if
>> went with Android), so its relative. Nokia blew it years ago. They may
>>  have bottomed out
>> now, and advance on Win7/8 mobile going forward. They got caught snoozing
>> starting in around 2005-2006 time frame.
>> I have a Win phone, and android. Haven't used the Win phone as a phone at
>> all, my sim goes into my Android, I got the Win7 phone as a new signup to
>> bell,
>> and already had my HTC Desire HD. I think the Win7 phone may have a
>> slight advantage to very non-tech people (i.e. grandparents), but that's
>> about it, but
>> i haven't installed the new upgrade yet. Win 7 is on my HTC 7, basically
>> same phone as desire HD, and the Win7 is a bit flashier with some
>> animations,etc.
>> Nokia has to hope there is demand for WinPhone with MS new 8, if not,
>> then they are in extra big trouble. If they had of gone with Android they
>> would have competed with Samsung, and started to late, and their stock
>> would have been bailed on even more by now, so they definitely had only the
>> one choice to make, go with MS. Decided on Android back when Samsung did
>> (or prior), then different story.
>>
>> -tl
>>
>>
>> On 06/16/2012 03:58 PM, Christopher Browne wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yep, what seemed like a bad idea looks to be playing out badly.
>>>
>>> Curiously, anyone I have heard that used Windows Mobile seem to like it
>>> quite well, though not necessarily to the point of being prepared to pay
>>> ANY price to get it.
>>>
>>> The other curious observation I hear is that the "market" would like
>>> there to be a third alternative to iOS and Android, so there is reason for
>>> mobile carriers to want either WinMo or latest RIM to survive, though they
>>> wouldn't much care which, and they'd prefer to only need to spend anything
>>> supporting one, so one of them should win and the other fail quickly and
>>> ease that support choice :-).
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists<http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists>
>>
>
>
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From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 17 14:26:11 2012
From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:26:11 +0300
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <CAC4o_JLh11cdti=Z9kMRg_Pwgb0Jy174j8NGRwOaqJBntVsShQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com>
 <AANLkTimo8fL+K5-7-J=nEPfDvsrSTL_Sc_b+3pPaFSzY@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+5xWCEqLMgYG7_y5-2qbiA3mB2nUd4p5TdA0gaJG1HW5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNqd5UY7EfN-py2B5wFGoYijisFA4d6F-7_0goELXB9+r92+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDD0B7D.3020404@gmail.com> <CACyhTRH8oUCii8hJugN9b1+D4n-i4nB69dQhOQEkXRB2MYgaPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC4o_JLh11cdti=Z9kMRg_Pwgb0Jy174j8NGRwOaqJBntVsShQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACyhTRFSLX9-ETu1WpvhAgsvdh2QjfdQXbyV3c2tYuJW-GznPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Jason Shaw <grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Nokia has one handset with Meego on it, the Nokia N9.  I have one and love
> it.  It's super responsive, a nice UI that makes sense and has all the apps
> I need on it.  Underneath it all is Debian.  No carriers in North America
> have it, so I ordered it from Europe, but it is set up for pentaband GSM,
> so it should work on any GSM network.  On Rogers, for data, I'm almost
> always connected at "3.5G" speeds, which is Meego's way of saying HSDPA.
>
> The N9 has been remarkably well received, and you can even dual boot
> Android 4 on it, which runs like a dream.
>
> http://swipe.nokia.com/
>
> -jason
>
> Are you sure it is Debian?
>From what I remember it is using RPM as package manager so I don't think it
is Debian.

-- 
Ori Idan
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 17 14:39:50 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:39:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: refurb wireless router deal: WNDR3700 for $65
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206170952480.5785@redclaw.mimosa.com>

[The subject says it all.  The rest of this message is details about why 
you might care and what some other choices cost.]

The Netgear WNDR3700 is a good choice for open-source firmware.  It has a 
fair bit of RAM and flash memory.  It uses Atheros chips, so there is a 
decent open source driver.  But it is a bit expensive.

The Netgear WNDR3800 is even better.  But it is usually quite a bit 
more expensive.

The Cerowrt project, based on OpenWRT, is very interesting.  It only 
supports these two routers.  Cerowrt is serious about upstreaming its 
fixes for "bufferbloat" to Linux.  It is also 33 days late on its first 
public release :-)
 <http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/cerowrt>

If you don't care about Cerowrt, there are other routers your should 
consider.  For example, certain Buffalo models have very similar hardware 
(lower price but apparently inferior antennae).  You might also consider 
waiting for the Real Soon Now next wireless standard.

newegg.ca is selling refurbed 3700s for 64.99, including shipping, a 
reasonable price:
 <http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122470>
Warning: there used to be a V1 of this -- better antenna but less RAM.  It 
is possible but unlikely that you'd get a V1.

Staples.ca and BestBuy.ca sell the 3700 new for $100 with free shipping. 
The best price I've seen: Boxing Day at BestBuy.ca (not B&M!) $80. I have 
one of these awaiting Cerowrt.

BestBuy.ca sells the 3800 for $130 with free shipping.
 <http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122434>
You could probably beat that price with memoryexpress.com's generous price 
matching
 <http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX36567>
against 
 <http://www.bestdirect.ca/products/237362/Netgear/WNDR3800_100NAS/>
Result should be just under $120.

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 17 16:42:51 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:42:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <CACyhTRFSLX9-ETu1WpvhAgsvdh2QjfdQXbyV3c2tYuJW-GznPA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTimo8fL+K5-7-J=nEPfDvsrSTL_Sc_b+3pPaFSzY@mail.gmail.com> <CAE9rU+5xWCEqLMgYG7_y5-2qbiA3mB2nUd4p5TdA0gaJG1HW5g@mail.gmail.com> <CAFNqd5UY7EfN-py2B5wFGoYijisFA4d6F-7_0goELXB9+r92+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDD0B7D.3020404@gmail.com> <CACyhTRH8oUCii8hJugN9b1+D4n-i4nB69dQhOQEkXRB2MYgaPA@mail.gmail.com> <CAC4o_JLh11cdti=Z9kMRg_Pwgb0Jy174j8NGRwOaqJBntVsShQ@mail.gmail.com> <CACyhTRFSLX9-ETu1WpvhAgsvdh2QjfdQXbyV3c2tYuJW-GznPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206171207470.5785@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Ori Idan <ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org>

| Are you sure it is Debian?
| From what I remember it is using RPM as package manager so I don't think it
| is Debian.

(Fixed quoting.)

Meego is about an alien who claims to be from Canada
  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meego_%28TV_series%29>

Meego itself is a weird mash-up.

- Nokia brought Maemo, which was debian-based
  
- some part came from OpenSUSE.

- some RedHat hackers were hired by Intel (Arjen and Cox, at least)

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeeGo>
    Harmattan, originally slated to become Maemo 6, is now considered to
    be a MeeGo instance (though not a MeeGo product), and Nokia is giving
    up the Maemo branding for Harmattan on the Nokia N9 and beyond (Maemo
    5, aka Fremantle, and previous versions will still be referred to as
    Maemo).[10]

So the N9's Meego might really be Maemo by another name.

Another interesting quote:
    According to Intel, MeeGo was developed because Microsoft did not
    offer comprehensive Windows 7 support for the Atom processor.[6]
I think MS does support Win7 on Atom.

Still another interesting quote:
    Acer Iconia M500 tablet will run MeeGo[65]
I see a lot of A500's available -- A for Android?
I wonder if they could be reflashed to MeeGo?  Oh, no, the M500 is
Atom-base (dumb).  I bet it never actually shipped.

Intel has apparently abandonded Meego for Tizen.  The transition has
been very bad.  Qt seems to have been sidelined.  There is a Mer
project in which voluteers work forward from Meego.

A dizzying amuont of branding changes.  Who knows about the code.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 17 16:51:51 2012
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:51:51 -0400
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <CACyhTRFSLX9-ETu1WpvhAgsvdh2QjfdQXbyV3c2tYuJW-GznPA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimo8fL+K5-7-J=nEPfDvsrSTL_Sc_b+3pPaFSzY@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAE9rU+5xWCEqLMgYG7_y5-2qbiA3mB2nUd4p5TdA0gaJG1HW5g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFNqd5UY7EfN-py2B5wFGoYijisFA4d6F-7_0goELXB9+r92+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDD0B7D.3020404@gmail.com>
	<CACyhTRH8oUCii8hJugN9b1+D4n-i4nB69dQhOQEkXRB2MYgaPA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4o_JLh11cdti=Z9kMRg_Pwgb0Jy174j8NGRwOaqJBntVsShQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACyhTRFSLX9-ETu1WpvhAgsvdh2QjfdQXbyV3c2tYuJW-GznPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5X-edP2wYfNzTxG2P64_B0vip2uVLkTZh5cC86xExHkSg@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm.  Meego was heading to use RPM, but I'm not sure Nokia had gotten there
yet.

Sad that this became a dead end...  I quite liked Maemo.

Q:  how much are N9s to import?
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 17 19:50:49 2012
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:50:49 -0400
Subject: Nokia to use Window mobile 7
In-Reply-To: <4FDCD89A.4040201-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <AANLkTimSrB730cUAMC9=Xz5LUOPLYUz-Xi4gbMug1zO+@mail.gmail.com>
 <AANLkTi=r0xJ4T3JHwRuVwrZe8Fkmm3RWwcgKUEXOkVkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <AANLkTim5==BvP1CVQ3hzuQebT7fZSA9kBk_agH7kT2Sx@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDCD89A.4040201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120617195049.GA30245@waltdnes.org>

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 03:03:54PM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote

> Sadly, I like(d) Nokia :-(

  Me too.  I got a Nokia 6015i "dumbphone" in 2006 and it's still
chugging along.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org>
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 02:53:52 2012
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 22:53:52 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI vs. VIA APC vs. ?
Message-ID: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg@mail.gmail.com>

I quite enjoyed Scott Sullivan's talk last Tuesday at the Greater
Toronto Area Linux user group on ARM based Linux running computers,
but it has left me in a bit of a quandary...

I have a bedroom client PC for my MythTV system that I would love to
replace with something smaller, more power efficient, etc.. With that
in mind I have been paying close attention to the Raspberry PI as it
looks to be something that would do the job for $35 (well, sort of for
$35). At Scott's talk there was news of the VIA APC motherboard for
$49 (http://apc.io/) (well, sort of for $49). Comparing prices is a
little tricky in that the VIA APC comes with a power supply and 2 GB
of flash memory (both cost extra with the Raspberry PI). Both machines
come without cases, though the VIA APC was designed so it could fit
into Mini-ITX or MicroATX cases with lots of space left over. The
Raspberry PI can do 1080p resolution, while the VIA APC is limited to
720p. Both machines seem seriously back ordered...

So, as a MythTV client machine, any thoughts, Raspberry PI, VIA APC or
something else?

Thanks.


Colin McGregor
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From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 04:30:11 2012
From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 00:30:11 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI vs. VIA APC vs. ?
In-Reply-To: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDEAED3.60706@ss.org>

On 06/17/2012 10:53 PM, Colin McGregor wrote:
[...]
> So, as a MythTV client machine, any thoughts, Raspberry PI, VIA APC or
> something else?
>
> Thanks.

Colin,

With the Raspberry Pi starting to reach a multitudes of end users we're 
starting to see a rafter of interesting projects and reviews emerge. The 
most relevant to this thread is Hackaday's review of the Raspberry Pi 
XBMC distro.

http://hackaday.com/2012/06/14/hands-on-with-raspbmc/

While it preformed well for the codecs he has support for, anything out 
side of that was a no-go. This is typical for this class of hardware, 
consumer or otherwise. Investigate if the available codecs are right for 
you and your specific setup.

Now, for the APC, it's just too soon to tell. The hardware has not yet 
made it to the hands of anyone, let alone a xbmc or mythtv developer. 
That said, the fact that it claims to be only 720p capable already puts 
a mark against it in the running.

The one device I would consider is the Mele A1000/A2000(*), as it is 
marketed as an Andriod HTPC and has a very nice breadth video outputs. 
I've not yet enough progress to personal say what the capabilities are, 
but at $90 it's still a league above either of the two options above.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/mele-1080p-android-2-3-internet-tv-set-top-box-w-wifi-optical-3-x-usb-hdmi-av-lan-sd-119913
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/mele-a2000-1080p-android-2-3-network-multi-media-player-w-sata-usb-hdmi-lan-vga-wifi-4gb-131566

* There is actually no difference between these two devices other then 
the casing. Any discrepancy between the specs listed on DX can not be 
trusted. I've had this confirmed by multiple owners.

Relevant liberation work has gathered here:
http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/hacking_the_mele_a1000/

-- 
Scott Sullivan
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 14:47:46 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:47:46 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI vs. VIA APC vs. ?
In-Reply-To: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120618144746.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 10:53:52PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote:
> I quite enjoyed Scott Sullivan's talk last Tuesday at the Greater
> Toronto Area Linux user group on ARM based Linux running computers,
> but it has left me in a bit of a quandary...
> 
> I have a bedroom client PC for my MythTV system that I would love to
> replace with something smaller, more power efficient, etc.. With that
> in mind I have been paying close attention to the Raspberry PI as it
> looks to be something that would do the job for $35 (well, sort of for
> $35). At Scott's talk there was news of the VIA APC motherboard for
> $49 (http://apc.io/) (well, sort of for $49). Comparing prices is a
> little tricky in that the VIA APC comes with a power supply and 2 GB
> of flash memory (both cost extra with the Raspberry PI). Both machines
> come without cases, though the VIA APC was designed so it could fit
> into Mini-ITX or MicroATX cases with lots of space left over. The
> Raspberry PI can do 1080p resolution, while the VIA APC is limited to
> 720p. Both machines seem seriously back ordered...
> 
> So, as a MythTV client machine, any thoughts, Raspberry PI, VIA APC or
> something else?

I intend to buy a cubox for the job.

It's small, cute, fast, lower power, has an IR receiver port, HDMI,
eSata, USB, and is pretty cheap.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 15:55:33 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:55:33 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI vs. VIA APC vs. ?
In-Reply-To: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDF4F75.3000701@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-06-17 10:53 PM, Colin McGregor wrote:
> So, as a MythTV client machine, any thoughts, Raspberry PI, VIA APC or
> something else?

I've been considering getting a Pi but I have too many other projects on the 
go as it is. :-) It looks interesting but I'd have some doubts about trying 
to use it as a MythTV box. Perhaps it would work as a MythTV frontend.

AFAIK, the board is currently (or was recently) available via the Canadian 
outlet of Newark. Some people on MeetUp reported recently receiving their 
boards (shipped from Mississauga). There is another MeetUp gathering in the 
works for the Pi.

The Cubox device someone mentioned is also quite an interesting (and small) 
box but is quite a bit more money (at around $135).

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 17:07:31 2012
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:07:31 -0400
Subject: Interrupted UNIX FAQ
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5VG1T3qya8+tFHaJ=TgdxNp6yEU83aA7BvZ426rJr3Zzw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/interrupted.html

The tcsh question won't make much sense to other than those of us that:
a) Remember what Tenex stands for, or
b) Run something with a tcsh preference (e.g. - BSD)

The other bits are definitely awesome!

-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 17:25:04 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:25:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mythtv-gta]: Re:Raspberry PI vs. VIA APC vs. ?
In-Reply-To: <20120618152655.GS32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg@mail.gmail.com> <20120618144746.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CACXumD=HoVyuD+-o=ay6trD4_LTKKR2zKEOX-Vt6QRBPAJChWg@mail.gmail.com> <20120618152655.GS32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206181205520.25385@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>

| On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 11:21:10AM -0400, Tom Lichti wrote:
| > Let us know how that goes. 800MHz ARM is not all that fast, I'd prefer
| > 1.5GHz at a minimum.

To think, I first used X extensively on a 68020 running at 20 MHz.

| It may not be fast, but with a decent video engine, decoding video ought
| to not be a problem.  Certainly 1080p60 x264 playback on my I.MX53 QSB
| which is 1GHz uses less than 40% CPU.

Beware things not covered by supplied CODECs.  I have a WDTV Live that
doesn't get along with my Myth Backend and it won't even say why, just
that the encoding isn't supported (probably).

| Not a lot of 1.5GHz ARM systems around.
| 
| But of course ARM isn't x86, it's much better.

In what way?

My impression is that modern x86 systems (possibly excipting
Atom) do more per cycle than Arm systems.  It probably starts with a
much higher-performance memory system (wider, larger, larger caches,
better caching algorithms).  Note: "impression", not fact.

After I wrote that, I googled a bit but didn't find anything great.
Here's one useful article from the end of last year.  Not that it is
comparing a new ARM system with ancient non-Atom X86 (Pentim M
@ 1.86 GHz, Core Duo T2400 @ 1.83 GHz).

<http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=pandaboard_es&num=1>

My tentative world view is:

ARM SOCs are cheap, low power, flexible, ubiquitous, well supported.
A great choice for a lot of designs.  Great for embedding, great for
appliances.

x86 systems are standardized, cheap, fast, well-supported, ubiquitous.
A great choice for general purpose computing.

The disputed territory is mostly on the boundary of those two markets.

A Myth Box is actually a mixture of those two markets.  Myth is a
funny beast: it is an appliance built by end users and intended to be
built and customized by end users.  Replication is much looser than
most appliances.

I want a Myth appliance.  But most appliances:

(a) resist end-user programming.  There are ARM systems that try, but
    none is as easy as a PC.  In particular, the lack of
    standardization reduces the leverage of a distro like MythBuntu.
    This will become better if Myth developers gravitate towards
    one particular ARM system.

(b) don't have as much Video, RAM, and disk space, and performance as
    MythTV has become accustomed to.

Oh, and the video driver situation on ARM is mostly worse than on X86.

Once you kit out an ARM to be comfortable for Myth, it starts to be in
enemy territory.  I have a few X86 systems for running Myth front-ends
and they each cost about $200 plus tax.  An ARM system useful for
MythTV isn't likely to be much cheaper and convenient soon.  Note:
nobody had to produce a distro specific to my X86 boxes since they are
just PCs as far as the software is concerned.

I admit that I bought these at good prices, hard to duplicate.  But
then again, I bought some of them three years ago so price/performance
ought to have decreased.  It may not have -- the "nettop" seems to have
lost favour.  Perhaps that is because they are approaching enemy
territory (appliancehood).

Why are nettops unpopular?  Is it because they are seen as
half-powered PCs?  After all, the somewhat similar Mac Mini does seem
to be popular (full priced, full powered, but tiny and cute).  Or are
they viewed as purposeless appliances (they come out of the box with
no applications)?
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 18:42:29 2012
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:42:29 -0400
Subject: zsh, bindkeys, and CTRL+X CTRL+E editor
Message-ID: <4FDF7695.6050506@utoronto.ca>

Does anyone know how to get bindkeys to invoke an editor on a regular
command like by using CTRL+X CTRL+E combination like bash?

Admittedly I haven't searched much, thought I'd ask here first since
folks who don't know about that shortcut in bash might appreciate it.

Jamon
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From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 19:14:59 2012
From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 15:14:59 -0400
Subject: zsh, bindkeys, and CTRL+X CTRL+E editor
In-Reply-To: <4FDF7695.6050506-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FDF7695.6050506@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <CABSLv-87tb4Z9+wzXnZRx3rNeqZ3k4cQx0P4-N4BBxMu-NfySA@mail.gmail.com>

This is how you do it:

autoload -U edit-command-line
zle -N edit-command-line
bindkey '^x^e' edit-command-line

That should bring up $EDITOR when Ctrl-x Ctrl-e is pressed.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Jamon Camisso
<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Does anyone know how to get bindkeys to invoke an editor on a regular
> command like by using CTRL+X CTRL+E combination like bash?
>
> Admittedly I haven't searched much, thought I'd ask here first since
> folks who don't know about that shortcut in bash might appreciate it.
>
> Jamon
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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-- 
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O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:03:06 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:03:06 -0400
Subject: zsh, bindkeys, and CTRL+X CTRL+E editor
In-Reply-To: <4FDF7695.6050506-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FDF7695.6050506@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20120618200306.GA11461@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 02:42:29PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> Does anyone know how to get bindkeys to invoke an editor on a regular
> command like by using CTRL+X CTRL+E combination like bash?
> 
> Admittedly I haven't searched much, thought I'd ask here first since
> folks who don't know about that shortcut in bash might appreciate it.

Not sure about Zsh, but 'fc' will bring up editor for Bourne shell
family.  If you're using Vi-mode in command line (like I do), then you
don't need the editor, of course.
-- 
William
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From jamesemcintosh-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:11:35 2012
From: jamesemcintosh-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (James Mcintosh)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:11:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What hardware
Message-ID: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo@web124503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

What hardware does a laptop lent to me have?
?
The owner says that it's a Pentium 3 with several gigabytes of RAM.
?
The hardware reports to me:
?
Computer:
Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1400MHz 587MHz 512 MB of RAM

Does "Pentium M" mean "Pentium 3"?
?
It reports two speeds:
1400MHz
587MHz
?
Why?
?
Is the 1400MHz for processor, and the 587MHz for RAM speed, or speed of floating point processor - or what?
?
It seems to me that it has only 512 MB of RAM, rather than his stated "several gigabytes".
?
Maybe his recollections are mistaken?
?
I apologize for asking such a beginner's question.
?
James E. McIntosh
JamesEMcIntosh-Iimme/3Z544AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:17:52 2012
From: lists-5ZoueyuiTZiw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Digimer)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:17:52 -0400
Subject: What hardware
In-Reply-To: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo-es0uNtILmeb35Xbc4wGBzZOW+3bF1jUfVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo@web124503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDF8CF0.5040702@alteeve.ca>

On 06/18/2012 04:11 PM, James Mcintosh wrote:
> What hardware does a laptop lent to me have?
> The owner says that it's a Pentium 3 with several gigabytes of RAM.

Pentium M is it's own class of CPU, it is not a P3.

> The hardware reports to me:
> Computer:
> Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1400MHz 587MHz 512 MB of RAM
> Does "Pentium M" mean "Pentium 3"?
> It reports two speeds:
> 1400MHz
> 587MHz
> Why?
> Is the 1400MHz for processor, and the 587MHz for RAM speed, or speed of
> floating point processor - or what?

To save power, the CPU throttles down when there isn't much work to do. 
It jumps up to full speed when it sees a big job. All modern processors 
do this.

> It seems to me that it has only 512 MB of RAM, rather than his stated
> "several gigabytes".
> Maybe his recollections are mistaken?

No idea, maybe you're mixing up hard drive and RAM?

> I apologize for asking such a beginner's question.
> James E. McIntosh
> JamesEMcIntosh-Iimme/3Z544AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org <mailto:JamesEMcIntosh-Iimme/3Z544AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>


-- 
Digimer
Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.com


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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:18:16 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:18:16 -0400
Subject: What hardware
In-Reply-To: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo-es0uNtILmeb35Xbc4wGBzZOW+3bF1jUfVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo@web124503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDF8D08.8000202@rogers.com>

James Mcintosh wrote:
> The owner says that it's a Pentium 3 with several gigabytes of RAM.
Well, for starters, a P3 is not likely to have gigabytes of memory.  
IIRC, my P3 powered ThinkPad that I used at IBM had 48 MB.  However, a 
lot of people confuse disk space with memory.  On that same ThinkPad, I 
had a 2 GB drive.  The Pentium M is the mobile version of a P4.

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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:18:17 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:18:17 -0400
Subject: What hardware
In-Reply-To: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo-es0uNtILmeb35Xbc4wGBzZOW+3bF1jUfVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo@web124503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120618201817.GA11873@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 01:11:35PM -0700, James Mcintosh wrote:
> What hardware does a laptop lent to me have?
> The owner says that it's a Pentium 3 with several gigabytes of RAM.
> The hardware reports to me:
> Computer:
> Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1400MHz 587MHz 512 MB of RAM
> 
> Does "Pentium M" mean "Pentium 3"?
> It reports two speeds:
> 1400MHz
> 587MHz
> Why?
> Is the 1400MHz for processor, and the 587MHz for RAM speed, or speed of floating point processor - or what?
> It seems to me that it has only 512 MB of RAM, rather than his stated "several gigabytes".
> Maybe his recollections are mistaken?
> I apologize for asking such a beginner's question.
> James E. McIntosh
> JamesEMcIntosh-Iimme/3Z544AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org

Pentium M is not and is better than Pentium 3.  Try running,
    cat /proc/cpuinfo
    free
-- 
William
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:22:54 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:22:54 -0400
Subject: What hardware
In-Reply-To: <4FDF8D08.8000202-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo@web124503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FDF8D08.8000202@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120618202254.GA12025@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 04:18:16PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> The Pentium M is the mobile version of a P4.

Are you sure?  Pentium M and P4 were sold at the same time.  But, from
my memory, Pentium M was continuation of P3, and was pre-cursor to Core Duo.
-- 
William
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:32:39 2012
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:32:39 -0400
Subject: zsh, bindkeys, and CTRL+X CTRL+E editor
In-Reply-To: <CABSLv-87tb4Z9+wzXnZRx3rNeqZ3k4cQx0P4-N4BBxMu-NfySA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FDF7695.6050506@utoronto.ca> <CABSLv-87tb4Z9+wzXnZRx3rNeqZ3k4cQx0P4-N4BBxMu-NfySA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDF9067.4030609@utoronto.ca>

On 18/06/12 03:14 PM, Sadiq Saif wrote:
> This is how you do it:
> 
> autoload -U edit-command-line
> zle -N edit-command-line
> bindkey '^x^e' edit-command-line
> 
> That should bring up $EDITOR when Ctrl-x Ctrl-e is pressed.

Brilliant, thanks for that. I hadn't done the autoload part and was just
messing with bindkeys. Working nicely now.

On another note, any idea how to make zsh update it's built in list of
autocomplete program names when something new is installed? For example,
apt-get install foo. Attempting to tab-complete 'foo' always results in
a not found message until I source ~/.zshrc. Very annoying.

In any case, thanks again! Jamon
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From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:39:35 2012
From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:39:35 -0400
Subject: zsh, bindkeys, and CTRL+X CTRL+E editor
In-Reply-To: <4FDF9067.4030609-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FDF7695.6050506@utoronto.ca> <CABSLv-87tb4Z9+wzXnZRx3rNeqZ3k4cQx0P4-N4BBxMu-NfySA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDF9067.4030609@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <CABSLv--hZOemoDSXXuA6QAXW5jTFW9oTdJqZkg0nNPna0xcaHw@mail.gmail.com>

According to the zsh manpage [1], you can use the hash built-in:

hash [ -dfmr ] [ name[=value ] ] ...

hash -f
The `-f' option causes the entire path to be searched, and all the
commands found are added to the hash table.

So, in this case, you would do:

apt-get install foo && hash -f

[1] http://www.cs.elte.hu/zsh-manual/zsh_17.html

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Jamon Camisso
<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 18/06/12 03:14 PM, Sadiq Saif wrote:
>> This is how you do it:
>>
>> autoload -U edit-command-line
>> zle -N edit-command-line
>> bindkey '^x^e' edit-command-line
>>
>> That should bring up $EDITOR when Ctrl-x Ctrl-e is pressed.
>
> Brilliant, thanks for that. I hadn't done the autoload part and was just
> messing with bindkeys. Working nicely now.
>
> On another note, any idea how to make zsh update it's built in list of
> autocomplete program names when something new is installed? For example,
> apt-get install foo. Attempting to tab-complete 'foo' always results in
> a not found message until I source ~/.zshrc. Very annoying.
>
> In any case, thanks again! Jamon
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists



-- 
Sadiq S
O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:56:29 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:56:29 -0400
Subject: [mythtv-gta]: Re:Raspberry PI vs. VIA APC vs. ?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206181205520.25385-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120618144746.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CACXumD=HoVyuD+-o=ay6trD4_LTKKR2zKEOX-Vt6QRBPAJChWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120618152655.GS32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206181205520.25385@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20120618205629.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 01:25:04PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> Beware things not covered by supplied CODECs.  I have a WDTV Live that
> doesn't get along with my Myth Backend and it won't even say why, just
> that the encoding isn't supported (probably).

Certainly a potential issue.

> In what way?
> 
> My impression is that modern x86 systems (possibly excipting
> Atom) do more per cycle than Arm systems.  It probably starts with a
> much higher-performance memory system (wider, larger, larger caches,
> better caching algorithms).  Note: "impression", not fact.

x86 has instructions that can do more, although how often the compiler
happens to have code that fits those instructions, who knows.  The ARM
is certainly quite efficient.  It is a very nice simple instruction set.

And yes the atom is amazingly slow.

Of course most ARM systems have NEON (similar to SSE) which can help
performance of a lot of code too.  Not all of them have it, but a lot do.

> After I wrote that, I googled a bit but didn't find anything great.
> Here's one useful article from the end of last year.  Not that it is
> comparing a new ARM system with ancient non-Atom X86 (Pentim M
> @ 1.86 GHz, Core Duo T2400 @ 1.83 GHz).
> 
> <http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=pandaboard_es&num=1>
> 
> My tentative world view is:
> 
> ARM SOCs are cheap, low power, flexible, ubiquitous, well supported.
> A great choice for a lot of designs.  Great for embedding, great for
> appliances.
> 
> x86 systems are standardized, cheap, fast, well-supported, ubiquitous.
> A great choice for general purpose computing.
> 
> The disputed territory is mostly on the boundary of those two markets.
> 
> A Myth Box is actually a mixture of those two markets.  Myth is a
> funny beast: it is an appliance built by end users and intended to be
> built and customized by end users.  Replication is much looser than
> most appliances.
> 
> I want a Myth appliance.  But most appliances:
> 
> (a) resist end-user programming.  There are ARM systems that try, but
>     none is as easy as a PC.  In particular, the lack of
>     standardization reduces the leverage of a distro like MythBuntu.
>     This will become better if Myth developers gravitate towards
>     one particular ARM system.
> 
> (b) don't have as much Video, RAM, and disk space, and performance as
>     MythTV has become accustomed to.
> 
> Oh, and the video driver situation on ARM is mostly worse than on X86.

That is unfortunately true.  Although to only video cards that actually
work properly for mythtv use are nvidia cards, and pretty much only when
using the binary driver, so overall, it comes out about the same.

I still think an 800Mhz ARM with 1GB DDR3 ram and gigabit ethernet and
video decoding hardware ought to be OK for a mythfrontend.  Worth trying
at least.  Even has OpenGL|ES 2.0.

> Once you kit out an ARM to be comfortable for Myth, it starts to be in
> enemy territory.  I have a few X86 systems for running Myth front-ends
> and they each cost about $200 plus tax.  An ARM system useful for
> MythTV isn't likely to be much cheaper and convenient soon.  Note:
> nobody had to produce a distro specific to my X86 boxes since they are
> just PCs as far as the software is concerned.

Of course.  I still like the idea of a 3W 2" cube that does everything
a mythfrontend could possibly need for $135.

> I admit that I bought these at good prices, hard to duplicate.  But
> then again, I bought some of them three years ago so price/performance
> ought to have decreased.  It may not have -- the "nettop" seems to have
> lost favour.  Perhaps that is because they are approaching enemy
> territory (appliancehood).
> 
> Why are nettops unpopular?  Is it because they are seen as
> half-powered PCs?  After all, the somewhat similar Mac Mini does seem
> to be popular (full priced, full powered, but tiny and cute).  Or are
> they viewed as purposeless appliances (they come out of the box with
> no applications)?

Because they are atom powered and hence slugs?

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 20:58:45 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:58:45 -0400
Subject: What hardware
In-Reply-To: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo-es0uNtILmeb35Xbc4wGBzZOW+3bF1jUfVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340050295.30451.YahooMailNeo@web124503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120618205845.GV32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 01:11:35PM -0700, James Mcintosh wrote:
> What hardware does a laptop lent to me have?
> ?
> The owner says that it's a Pentium 3 with several gigabytes of RAM.
> ?
> The hardware reports to me:
> ?
> Computer:
> Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1400MHz 587MHz 512 MB of RAM
> 
> Does "Pentium M" mean "Pentium 3"?
?
Almost.  The Pentium M is the Pentium Mobile.  A very nice CPU based on
the Pentium 3 (and hence pentium Pro) optimized for low power consumption.
It was what the Core line of CPUs started from when the Pentium 4 disaster
was scrapped.

> It reports two speeds:
> 1400MHz
> 587MHz
> ?
> Why?
?
To same power.

> Is the 1400MHz for processor, and the 587MHz for RAM speed, or speed of floating point processor - or what?

I believe it supports running at two speeds.  Low speed saves power and
makes the battery last longer.

> It seems to me that it has only 512 MB of RAM, rather than his stated "several gigabytes".
?
512MB was a lot for a Pentium M machine.  Perfectly reasonable.

> Maybe his recollections are mistaken?

Likely.

> I apologize for asking such a beginner's question.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 21:00:09 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 17:00:09 -0400
Subject: Raspberry PI vs. VIA APC vs. ?
In-Reply-To: <4FDF4F75.3000701-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDF4F75.3000701@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <20120618210009.GW32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 11:55:33AM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> I've been considering getting a Pi but I have too many other
> projects on the go as it is. :-) It looks interesting but I'd have
> some doubts about trying to use it as a MythTV box. Perhaps it would
> work as a MythTV frontend.
> 
> AFAIK, the board is currently (or was recently) available via the
> Canadian outlet of Newark. Some people on MeetUp reported recently
> receiving their boards (shipped from Mississauga). There is another
> MeetUp gathering in the works for the Pi.
> 
> The Cubox device someone mentioned is also quite an interesting (and
> small) box but is quite a bit more money (at around $135).

1GB ram and gigabit ethernet isn't free.  Neither is the handy case and
power supply.  I don't believe the pi has either of those.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 21:02:28 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 17:02:28 -0400
Subject: Interrupted UNIX FAQ
In-Reply-To: <CAFNqd5VG1T3qya8+tFHaJ=TgdxNp6yEU83aA7BvZ426rJr3Zzw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNqd5VG1T3qya8+tFHaJ=TgdxNp6yEU83aA7BvZ426rJr3Zzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120618210228.GX32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 01:07:31PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote:
> http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/interrupted.html
> 
> The tcsh question won't make much sense to other than those of us that:
> a) Remember what Tenex stands for, or
> b) Run something with a tcsh preference (e.g. - BSD)
> 
> The other bits are definitely awesome!

Wow I think they are all correct.

Not that you should even be using tcsh or sendmail at all.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 23:43:25 2012
From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:43:25 -0400
Subject: Bash history keybinding
Message-ID: <CAGvW9WfMPfh2yd8tWQL9=470bKchJd_mweVFYC1mCk5tTdeTyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Something clobbered my Alt-> (go to the end of the history) in
openSUSE's bash... does anyone know where it can be reinstated?

Mike
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From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 18 18:58:25 2012
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:58:25 -0400
Subject: zsh, bindkeys, and CTRL+X CTRL+E editor
In-Reply-To: <4FDF7695.6050506-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FDF7695.6050506@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <CAFKQHHN=9BBkk4hpeodUD0tHRR0-WGaT-c5EKQVPejwb7g5wsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Jamon Camisso
<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Does anyone know how to get bindkeys to invoke an editor on a regular
> command like by using CTRL+X CTRL+E combination like bash?
>
> Admittedly I haven't searched much, thought I'd ask here first since
> folks who don't know about that shortcut in bash might appreciate it.

I think you're looking for bash macros.

Regards,
-- 
G. Matthew Rice <mrice-WHMkLBA7RDE at public.gmane.org>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? gpg id: EF9AAD20
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 00:35:28 2012
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:35:28 -0400
Subject: zsh, bindkeys, and CTRL+X CTRL+E editor
In-Reply-To: <CABSLv--hZOemoDSXXuA6QAXW5jTFW9oTdJqZkg0nNPna0xcaHw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FDF7695.6050506@utoronto.ca> <CABSLv-87tb4Z9+wzXnZRx3rNeqZ3k4cQx0P4-N4BBxMu-NfySA@mail.gmail.com> <4FDF9067.4030609@utoronto.ca> <CABSLv--hZOemoDSXXuA6QAXW5jTFW9oTdJqZkg0nNPna0xcaHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDFC950.6070401@utoronto.ca>

On 18/06/12 04:39 PM, Sadiq Saif wrote:
> According to the zsh manpage [1], you can use the hash built-in:
> 
> hash [ -dfmr ] [ name[=value ] ] ...
> 
> hash -f
> The `-f' option causes the entire path to be searched, and all the
> commands found are added to the hash table.
> 
> So, in this case, you would do:
> 
> apt-get install foo && hash -f
> 
> [1] http://www.cs.elte.hu/zsh-manual/zsh_17.html

Automating the hash -f part is what I was after. I saw a reference to
hashing in the zshcompsys man page, but no way to automatically update
it. Checking the main docs, I found reference in the Completion System
Standard Styles section[1]. The following works and updates completion
lists when installing/removing packages:

zstyle ':completion:*' rehash 'true'

Thanks for the input all, Jamon

[1]
http://zsh.sourceforge.net/Doc/Release/Completion-System.html#Standard-Styles
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 00:45:08 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:45:08 -0400
Subject: Bash history keybinding
In-Reply-To: <CAGvW9WfMPfh2yd8tWQL9=470bKchJd_mweVFYC1mCk5tTdeTyQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGvW9WfMPfh2yd8tWQL9=470bKchJd_mweVFYC1mCk5tTdeTyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120619004508.GA20042@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 07:43:25PM -0400, Michael Hill wrote:
> Something clobbered my Alt-> (go to the end of the history) in
> openSUSE's bash... does anyone know where it can be reinstated?

Try
    man bash
>From top of my head,
    .inputrc
    .profile
    .bashrc
    .bashlogin
    /etc/profile

-- 
William
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 00:57:07 2012
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:57:07 -0400
Subject: Functioning Apple 1
Message-ID: <4FDFCE63.1060507@rogers.com>

Apple 1 computer and Steve Jobs Atari memo sold at auction

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18456746


-- 
Stephen
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From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 11:18:30 2012
From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 07:18:30 -0400
Subject: [mythtv-gta]: Re:Raspberry PI vs. VIA APC vs. ?
In-Reply-To: <20120618205629.GU32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120618144746.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CACXumD=HoVyuD+-o=ay6trD4_LTKKR2zKEOX-Vt6QRBPAJChWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120618152655.GS32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206181205520.25385@redclaw.mimosa.com>
 <20120618205629.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20120619111830.GJ9073@adb.ca>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> That is unfortunately true.  Although to only video cards that actually
> work properly for mythtv use are nvidia cards, and pretty much only when
> using the binary driver, so overall, it comes out about the same.

I'd be worried that the next generation of Nvidia hardware will halt
and catch fire if it detects you running Linux on it, after the great
esteem Linus recently expressed for that firm.

> I still think an 800Mhz ARM with 1GB DDR3 ram and gigabit ethernet and
> video decoding hardware ought to be OK for a mythfrontend.  Worth trying
> at least.  Even has OpenGL|ES 2.0.

The hardware codec would be the centrepiece of that, though: if you've
got one then a very modest CPU can keep it fed with raw data, while if
you don't then you need a fairly grunty CPU to do it in software.

And a box that can support some things in hardware and has to fall back
to software for others falls off a cliff there performance-wise, so
transcoding one's collection to something the hardware can handle might
be an issue too.  I was at one point going to look into media servers
that can transcode on the fly and run that on a beefy box somewhere off
to the side.

-- 
Anthony de Boer
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 13:10:44 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 06:10:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
Message-ID: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/18/torvalds_curses_nvidia/>

Does that mean I have to replace all nVidia card with ATI? :-)
-- 

William

--
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From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 13:12:05 2012
From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:12:05 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3MP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABSLv--Wy-UZqyKRwEnFiyc9MDyH=YWNM6Wd0Fx+bg-6jHHuWA@mail.gmail.com>

Not until the ATI drivers improve.

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 9:10 AM, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/18/torvalds_curses_nvidia/>
>
> Does that mean I have to replace all nVidia card with ATI? :-)
> --
>
> William
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists



-- 
Sadiq S
O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
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From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 13:29:26 2012
From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 10:29:26 -0300
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <CABSLv--Wy-UZqyKRwEnFiyc9MDyH=YWNM6Wd0Fx+bg-6jHHuWA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CABSLv--Wy-UZqyKRwEnFiyc9MDyH=YWNM6Wd0Fx+bg-6jHHuWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5qdexqZs=1gO1QSnEb3jduz-Qv=-nn5FR8Zi-_59pcg8DxRg@mail.gmail.com>

I don't have many problems with ATI drivers, but had a lot with nVidia.

In fact, I don't like neither ATI or nVidia.

I just prefer Intel graphic cards. Never had problems with Intel + Linux.
But I don't like games, so I recognize that graphic performance is not a
"very important" stuff for me.

===================================================

Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha - Kalib

Graduando em Sistemas de Informa??es - EST?CIO/FIC
Usu?rio Linux #407564 | Usu?rio Asterisk #1148
Fortaleza - Cear? - Brazil
Celular: +55 085 87620983
Certifica??es: ITIL
V3<http://www.itil-officialsite.com/Qualifications/ITILV3QualificationLevels/ITILV3FoundationQualificationinITServiceManagement.aspx>
 | CSM <http://www.scrumalliance.org/> | LPI-C1 <http://www.lpi.org/> | Novell
CLA <http://www.novell.com/training/certinfo/cla/>
Minha Pessoa: Blog <http://www.marcelocavalcante.net>
Projetos: Tux-CE <http://www.tux-ce.org> |
Archlinux-br<http://www.archlinux-br.org>
 | Chakra <http://www.chakra-project.org/> | KDE Brasil <http://br.kde.org>
 | TLUG <http://gtalug.org/wiki/Main_Page> |
PUG-CE<http://pug-ce.python.org.br/blog/>

===================================================


Proteja meu endere?o como estou protegendo o seu.
N?o revele e-mail dos correspondentes: use Cco (Copia Carbonada Oculta).
Retire os endere?os antes de reenviar. Dificulte assim a
dissemina??o de v?rus e spam.



On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Sadiq Saif <sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Not until the ATI drivers improve.
>
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 9:10 AM, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
> > <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/18/torvalds_curses_nvidia/>
> >
> > Does that mean I have to replace all nVidia card with ATI? :-)
> > --
> >
> > William
> >
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>
>
> --
> Sadiq S
> O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 13:35:26 2012
From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:35:26 -0400
Subject: Bash history keybinding
In-Reply-To: <20120619004508.GA20042-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGvW9WfMPfh2yd8tWQL9=470bKchJd_mweVFYC1mCk5tTdeTyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120619004508.GA20042@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <CAGvW9WevaaORmF8ijE+Dwu9e-RHpaYnqBeYUAL5dzvmB7LnLPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 8:45 PM, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 07:43:25PM -0400, Michael Hill wrote:
>> Something clobbered my Alt-> (go to the end of the history) in
>> openSUSE's bash... does anyone know where it can be reinstated?
>
> Try
> ? ?man bash
> From top of my head,
> ? ?.inputrc
> ? ?.profile
> ? ?.bashrc
> ? ?.bashlogin
> ? ?/etc/profile

Thanks, William.  I had already tried three of those, but I'll check the others.

Mike
--
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From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 14:53:17 2012
From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:53:17 +0300
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3MP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 4:10 PM, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/18/torvalds_curses_nvidia/>
>
> Does that mean I have to replace all nVidia card with ATI? :-)
>

It's interesting how everyone notices only this part that is less then 2
minutes towards the end of the lecture.

I enjoyed listening to all the talk.

-- 
Ori Idan
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 15:20:50 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:20:50 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+4wTrHHXvnvw6OL2PLmKV54uSRvZ5Jy4F16KhhsPk8CMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi
>
> It's interesting how everyone notices only this part that is less then 2
minutes towards the end of the lecture.
>
> I enjoyed listening to all the talk.
>
Me too. He really know how to articulate his answers well and honestly.

For example, when asked how he has changed since he started the project,
he said its impossible to respond to search question and only people who
see him rarely can be in position to answer. I do agree, we change in such
a slow manner that its impossible to realize its happening. The saying
about a frog not noticing change in water temperature applies here nicely.

William
> --
> Ori Idan
>
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 16:14:54 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:14:54 -0400
Subject: [mythtv-gta]: Re:Raspberry PI vs. VIA APC vs. ?
In-Reply-To: <20120619111830.GJ9073-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAJUuK_D8NvvQXCWqNtCHaZ-DAbOcCA16mqNp0H5mEhUKifQJHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120618144746.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CACXumD=HoVyuD+-o=ay6trD4_LTKKR2zKEOX-Vt6QRBPAJChWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120618152655.GS32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206181205520.25385@redclaw.mimosa.com>
 <20120618205629.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <20120619111830.GJ9073@adb.ca>
Message-ID: <20120619161454.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 07:18:30AM -0400, Anthony de Boer wrote:
> I'd be worried that the next generation of Nvidia hardware will halt
> and catch fire if it detects you running Linux on it, after the great
> esteem Linus recently expressed for that firm.

Well someone did say the tegra 3 support just got pushed to the kernel.
Probably doesn't include the video accaleration bits though.

> The hardware codec would be the centrepiece of that, though: if you've
> got one then a very modest CPU can keep it fed with raw data, while if
> you don't then you need a fairly grunty CPU to do it in software.
> 
> And a box that can support some things in hardware and has to fall back
> to software for others falls off a cliff there performance-wise, so
> transcoding one's collection to something the hardware can handle might
> be an issue too.  I was at one point going to look into media servers
> that can transcode on the fly and run that on a beefy box somewhere off
> to the side.

Well so far I have only ever had x264 and MPEG2 for my mythtv recordings.
I am pretty sure it supports those.  I guess I will find out.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 16:16:26 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:16:26 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3MP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 06:10:44AM -0700, William Park wrote:
> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/18/torvalds_curses_nvidia/>
> 
> Does that mean I have to replace all nVidia card with ATI? :-)

If you want something worse, then yes.

Nvidia is very mcuh not linux friendly, but they do release very good
working drivers for linux as quickly as they do windows.

ATI doesn't seem able to make reliable drivers for linux at all (and
whether their windows drivers are reliable is debateable at times).

So overall, makers of graphics hardware all suck.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 16:18:07 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:18:07 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+4wTrHHXvnvw6OL2PLmKV54uSRvZ5Jy4F16KhhsPk8CMQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+4wTrHHXvnvw6OL2PLmKV54uSRvZ5Jy4F16KhhsPk8CMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120619161806.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 11:20:50AM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
> Me too. He really know how to articulate his answers well and honestly.

Yes, much better to listen to than RMS.

I remember watching a video of a talk he did at google as far as I recall
on git (where he said lots of not pretty things about subversion).

> For example, when asked how he has changed since he started the project,
> he said its impossible to respond to search question and only people who
> see him rarely can be in position to answer. I do agree, we change in such
> a slow manner that its impossible to realize its happening. The saying
> about a frog not noticing change in water temperature applies here nicely.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 16:24:20 2012
From: stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stephen Gordon)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:24:20 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <20120619161626.GZ32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CAGdUKYv5ba765vJ+-RpOAv=9OwSA7nK0vV=yuetyCJ22tjUepg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Lennart Sorensen
<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 06:10:44AM -0700, William Park wrote:
>> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/18/torvalds_curses_nvidia/>
>>
>> Does that mean I have to replace all nVidia card with ATI? :-)
>
> If you want something worse, then yes.
>
> Nvidia is very mcuh not linux friendly, but they do release very good
> working drivers for linux as quickly as they do windows.

I thought the question was in relation to Nvidia's Optimus technology
which doesn't have official Linux driver support from Nvidia at all,
only windows? The bumblebee project is an attempt to get this stuff
working on linux without Nvidia's help.

> ATI doesn't seem able to make reliable drivers for linux at all (and
> whether their windows drivers are reliable is debateable at times).

My understanding is that ATI have pretty much given up and released
their specs, which is why the FOSS driver for their cards has been
rapidly improving. I use it on my laptop and it works quite well, but
I don't think it would be up to heavy gaming use and I know it is
still hit and miss depending on what model GPU you have.

Steve
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 16:58:24 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:58:24 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <CAGdUKYv5ba765vJ+-RpOAv=9OwSA7nK0vV=yuetyCJ22tjUepg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAGdUKYv5ba765vJ+-RpOAv=9OwSA7nK0vV=yuetyCJ22tjUepg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120619165824.GB32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:24:20PM -0400, Stephen Gordon wrote:
> I thought the question was in relation to Nvidia's Optimus technology
> which doesn't have official Linux driver support from Nvidia at all,
> only windows? The bumblebee project is an attempt to get this stuff
> working on linux without Nvidia's help.

I think there have been other issues too.

> My understanding is that ATI have pretty much given up and released
> their specs, which is why the FOSS driver for their cards has been
> rapidly improving. I use it on my laptop and it works quite well, but
> I don't think it would be up to heavy gaming use and I know it is
> still hit and miss depending on what model GPU you have.

Well ATI says they want to release specs, yet don't seem to actually
really do so.  They seem to keep hitting parts of their design that they
licensed from someone else and are not allowed to release specs for.
I will be impressed the day ATI actually releases complete specs for
even a single chip.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 16:58:58 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:58:58 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <20120619161626.GZ32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE0AFD2.2090604@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-06-19 12:16 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> So overall, makers of graphics hardware all suck.

The only option would be to help with the Open Graphics Project 
(http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php).

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 17:30:28 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:30:28 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <4FE0AFD2.2090604-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FE0AFD2.2090604@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <20120619173028.GC32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:58:58PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> The only option would be to help with the Open Graphics Project
> (http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php).

Or you can lobby hardware makers that it would be worth their while to
be nice.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 18:20:06 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:20:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <20120619173028.GC32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FE0AFD2.2090604@ve3syb.ca> <20120619173028.GC32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <1340130006.89536.YahooMailNeo@web113412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Companies don't move unless they see money.? Problem is that
NVidia and ATI are the only one for discrete card.

-- 

William



----- Original Message -----
> From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbviStVtt7rNQw at public.gmane.orgterloo.ca>
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:30:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Linus vs. NVidia
> 
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:58:58PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
>>  The only option would be to help with the Open Graphics Project
>>  (http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php).
> 
> Or you can lobby hardware makers that it would be worth their while to
> be nice.
> 
> -- 
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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> 
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 18:23:29 2012
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:23:29 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <20120619161626.GZ32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE0C3A1.1060101@utoronto.ca>

On 19/06/12 12:16 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 06:10:44AM -0700, William Park wrote:
>> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/18/torvalds_curses_nvidia/>
>>
>> Does that mean I have to replace all nVidia card with ATI? :-)
> 
> If you want something worse, then yes.
> 
> Nvidia is very mcuh not linux friendly, but they do release very good
> working drivers for linux as quickly as they do windows.
> 
> ATI doesn't seem able to make reliable drivers for linux at all (and
> whether their windows drivers are reliable is debateable at times).

When I bought a 6850 card, the older Catalyst ATI driver that I was
running supported it before it was included in a newer Catalyst release
officially listing the card. I was impressed.

ATI is not the company it was 10 years ago when they gained their
reputation for crappy drivers.

In the end I like the Intel video cards as well because they works
pretty flawlessly as others have noted.

Jamon
--
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 18:23:44 2012
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:23:44 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <20120619173028.GC32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FE0AFD2.2090604@ve3syb.ca> <20120619173028.GC32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE0C3B0.3080009@utoronto.ca>

On 19/06/12 01:30 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:58:58PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
>> The only option would be to help with the Open Graphics Project
>> (http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php).
> 
> Or you can lobby hardware makers that it would be worth their while to
> be nice.
> 

Or you can swear at them publicly and get your video uploaded to Youtube
and gain online press.

Jamon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 19:32:59 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:32:59 -0400
Subject: Firewall configuration for Fedora 16
In-Reply-To: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNMnyYTyGCF7OkUr2ryfETefmQSWcr84kOyXFGKaZCteu8AdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE0D3EB.6050103@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-06-01 04:21 PM, Andrei Dimitrief-Jianu wrote:
> I am using the following script to configure iptables on a laptop running
> Fedora 16.
[snip]
> Would you be able to tell me how to tweak the script so that it will allow
> me to login in graphic mode as well?

Do you need to do something with ports 6000-6003?

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 19:54:09 2012
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:54:09 -0400
Subject: OT: Website Vulnerability Assessment
Message-ID: <CAEnxSC6cw9aTgo6Z49OO09z9rzX+sWNPw8cwR3VGOVKvkJPH_g@mail.gmail.com>

A friend asked me for a recommendation for a company to do website
vulnerability testing, but I haven't dealt with that at all.  Has
anyone on the list dealt with that recently?  We'd be interested in
reviews, both positive and negative.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
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From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 19:57:29 2012
From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:57:29 +0300
Subject: OT: Website Vulnerability Assessment
In-Reply-To: <CAEnxSC6cw9aTgo6Z49OO09z9rzX+sWNPw8cwR3VGOVKvkJPH_g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAEnxSC6cw9aTgo6Z49OO09z9rzX+sWNPw8cwR3VGOVKvkJPH_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACyhTRGLj_B9x=+V4L_OXMPe9UQvGQRp7_P2TA_uoBOA25QVNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Giles Orr <gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> A friend asked me for a recommendation for a company to do website
> vulnerability testing, but I haven't dealt with that at all.  Has
> anyone on the list dealt with that recently?  We'd be interested in
> reviews, both positive and negative.
>

I can recommend Beyond security (http://www.beyondsecurity.com/) I know the
owner and they do pretty good job. Since I have not used them myself I can
not give any review.

-- 
Ori Idan
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From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 19:58:52 2012
From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:58:52 -0400
Subject: Fedora 17 ARM GA Release
In-Reply-To: <c3f20bf9-e0a6-4d80-8bb5-23111c434a01-j0D3zY5eh+x+R5eDjrG6zsCp5Q1pQRjfhaY/URYTgi6ny3qCrzbmXA@public.gmane.org>
References: <c3f20bf9-e0a6-4d80-8bb5-23111c434a01@zmail18.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4FE0D9FC.7060307@ss.org>

Because of the recent spike in interest in ARM, I'd like to like forward 
along this announcement to the list.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [fedora-arm] Fedora 17 ARM GA Release
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:36:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Whalen <pwhalen-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>
To: arm-TuqUDEhatI4ANWPb/1PvSmm0pvjS0E/A at public.gmane.org
CC: devel-TuqUDEhatI4ANWPb/1PvSmm0pvjS0E/A at public.gmane.org, announce-TuqUDEhatI4ANWPb/1PvSmm0pvjS0E/A at public.gmane.org

The Fedora ARM team is pleased to announce that the Fedora 17 GA release
for ARM is now available for download from:

http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora-secondary/releases/17/Images/

The GA release includes prebuilt images for Versatile Express (QEMU), 
Trimslice,
Beagleboard xM, Pandaboard, Kirkwood Plugs, Highbank and iMX based 
hardware platforms.
Please visit the announcement page for additional information and links 
to specific
hardware images:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM/Fedora_17_GA

We invite you to download the Fedora 17 GA release and provide your 
valuable input
to the Fedora ARM team. Please join us on the IRC in #fedora-arm on 
Freenode or
send feedback and comments to the ARM mailing list.

On behalf of the Fedora ARM team,
Paul
_______________________________________________
arm mailing list
arm-TuqUDEhatI4ANWPb/1PvSmm0pvjS0E/A at public.gmane.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/arm
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 20:03:54 2012
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:03:54 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <4FE0C3A1.1060101-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<4FE0C3A1.1060101@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <CAEnxSC6da5x1W+ZvTCo6gCGQOQOfz16sHEOREtRYVa5_dFboRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 June 2012 14:23, Jamon Camisso <jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 19/06/12 12:16 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 06:10:44AM -0700, William Park wrote:
>>> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/18/torvalds_curses_nvidia/>
>>>
>>> Does that mean I have to replace all nVidia card with ATI? :-)
>>
>> If you want something worse, then yes.
>>
>> Nvidia is very mcuh not linux friendly, but they do release very good
>> working drivers for linux as quickly as they do windows.
>>
>> ATI doesn't seem able to make reliable drivers for linux at all (and
>> whether their windows drivers are reliable is debateable at times).
>
> When I bought a 6850 card, the older Catalyst ATI driver that I was
> running supported it before it was included in a newer Catalyst release
> officially listing the card. I was impressed.
>
> ATI is not the company it was 10 years ago when they gained their
> reputation for crappy drivers.
>
> In the end I like the Intel video cards as well because they works
> pretty flawlessly as others have noted.

I've had the impression that there's no such thing as an "Intel video
card."  There's Intel onboard graphics chips, but no discrete cards
...  If I'm wrong about that, please tell me: I'll go out tomorrow to
buy two or three of them (because yes, I'm voting "me too" on this
comment).

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 20:50:48 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:50:48 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+7Vp5ByxPO-qRGWL1VZpfGfKNzEyWJGkyBuxrvh+ZK7hw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

> It's interesting how everyone notices only this part that is less then 2
> minutes towards the end of the lecture.
>
> I enjoyed listening to all the talk.

I just remembered something I did not understand and I am wondering if
there is anyone here who can clarify what he meant.

Someone had asked him if there was any other language other than C
that can fit operating system development. He said no and he showed a
couple of reasons why that is the case.  One of that case was the
ability to optimize, as he can see the assembly lines that will be
generated by just looking at the C code.  At that point he brought up
a fact that Linux is the only language that can parse file without
cache miss and apparently this has only been possible the last 18
months.

I haven't streamed the video again today, just trying to write what I
though he said and I most likely mis quoted him.  Think though I have
enough details for one to figure out what section I am referring.  My
problem though, I didn't really understand what he meant Linux can do
now.  Either my English language skills is failing me or my operating
system concepts are weak

Did anyone figure it out and able to clarify it for us a little challenged?

William
>
> --
> Ori Idan
>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 21:35:15 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:35:15 -0400
Subject: Interrupted UNIX FAQ
In-Reply-To: <CAFNqd5VG1T3qya8+tFHaJ=TgdxNp6yEU83aA7BvZ426rJr3Zzw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNqd5VG1T3qya8+tFHaJ=TgdxNp6yEU83aA7BvZ426rJr3Zzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE0F093.7080604@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-06-18 01:07 PM, Christopher Browne wrote:
> http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/interrupted.html
>
> The tcsh question won't make much sense to other than those of us that:

Cute FAQ. I don't know what the "t" in tcsh stood for but I do remember 
having to do rehash after some changes so tcsh could find some commands.

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 21:41:55 2012
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:41:55 -0400
Subject: Interrupted UNIX FAQ
In-Reply-To: <4FE0F093.7080604-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNqd5VG1T3qya8+tFHaJ=TgdxNp6yEU83aA7BvZ426rJr3Zzw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FE0F093.7080604@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5XsuH3esye3waUsfYd83N+cFpb3odnhrKG2XdrJKrTe4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Kevin Cozens <kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 12-06-18 01:07 PM, Christopher Browne wrote:
>>
>> http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/interrupted.html
>>
>> The tcsh question won't make much sense to other than those of us that:
>
>
> Cute FAQ. I don't know what the "t" in tcsh stood for but I do remember
> having to do rehash after some changes so tcsh could find some commands.

T is for TENEX, an OS that ran on PDP-10 systems a long, long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPS-20#TENEX

The TENEX feature that many of us use all the time is the notion of
tab-completion of arguments in the shell.
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
--
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From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 19 23:36:16 2012
From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:36:16 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <20120619161806.GA32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA@mail.gmail.com> <CAE9rU+4wTrHHXvnvw6OL2PLmKV54uSRvZ5Jy4F16KhhsPk8CMQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120619161806.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE10CF0.7010908@sobac.com>

On 06/19/2012 12:18 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 11:20:50AM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
>> Me too. He really know how to articulate his answers well and honestly.
> 
> Yes, much better to listen to than RMS.

Certainly /easier/ to listen to than RMS.  Listening to RMS makes me
have to think.


> I remember watching a video of a talk he did at google as far as I recall
> on git (where he said lots of not pretty things about subversion).

Link, if you've got it, please?

--Bob.

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From dmtilbrook at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 00:52:58 2012
From: dmtilbrook at gmail.com (David Tilbrook)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:52:58 -0400
Subject: Attaching a monitor via vga
Message-ID: <CAAPNFHQvB4fF0CUjiOPXwVmMfE0VcGPUHYAOP7Cw_As8HyqVDg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a thinkpad t61p running freebsd9.0.  The window size is 1680x1050
-- a reasonable size -- but the screen itself is 38cm. (15") which is
irritatingly
small for my old eyes.

So I want to attach an external monitor via a vga cable, which I have been
doing with my RedHat thinkpad A31P for years.

I tried attaching Asus VE228H (1920x1080) but it would display
only part of the window (the top-left corner). I get a similar behaviour
with a Samsung SyncMaster.

When I tried to xinit with the monitor attached, it displays an even smaller
part of the screen. (On my previous thinkpad with a Samsung, to get a
reasonable full window I had to unplug the vga, start xinit, and then plug
in the vga, but I can live with that.)

My questions:

1) What can I do to display the whole window on an external monitor?
2) Is there a monitor out there that would better support such use?
3) Would a Samsung T220HD 22" which claims to support 1680x1050
     work, and is there someone in Toronto who sells it and would let
     me test it? (Craigs list doesn't qualify).

-- david
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe at freebsd.org"




From erichfreebsdlist at ovitrap.com  Wed Jun 20 02:22:44 2012
From: erichfreebsdlist at ovitrap.com (Erich Dollansky)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 09:22:44 +0700
Subject: Attaching a monitor via vga
In-Reply-To: <CAAPNFHQvB4fF0CUjiOPXwVmMfE0VcGPUHYAOP7Cw_As8HyqVDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAPNFHQvB4fF0CUjiOPXwVmMfE0VcGPUHYAOP7Cw_As8HyqVDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201206200922.44032.erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com>

Hi,

On Wednesday 20 June 2012 07:52:58 David Tilbrook wrote:
> I have a thinkpad t61p running freebsd9.0.  The window size is 
1680x1050
> -- a reasonable size -- but the screen itself is 38cm. (15") which is
> irritatingly
> small for my old eyes.
> 
yeah, the age.

> So I want to attach an external monitor via a vga cable, which I have 
been
> doing with my RedHat thinkpad A31P for years.

Do you still have access to the xorg.conf?

Try to set a single configuration which only supports the native 
resolution of that screen.

You also could have a test with a normal PC and the monitor.

Erich
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From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 20 14:07:34 2012
From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:07:34 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <20120619173028.GC32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120619161626.GZ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FE0AFD2.2090604@ve3syb.ca> <20120619173028.GC32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE1D926.3030907@the-wire.com>

On 12-06-19 01:30 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:58:58PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
>> The only option would be to help with the Open Graphics Project
>> (http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php).
> Or you can lobby hardware makers that it would be worth their while to
> be nice.
Maybe in this new world of Microhard, they'll see that the choice is 
either be nice or risk not being picked the designated winner.

     Mel.

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 20 15:56:31 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 11:56:31 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <4FE10CF0.7010908-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+4wTrHHXvnvw6OL2PLmKV54uSRvZ5Jy4F16KhhsPk8CMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120619161806.GA32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FE10CF0.7010908@sobac.com>
Message-ID: <20120620155631.GD32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 07:36:16PM -0400, Bob Jonkman wrote:
> Certainly /easier/ to listen to than RMS.  Listening to RMS makes me
> have to think.

But often RMS is plain wrong. :)

> Link, if you've got it, please?

I believe this is it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8

>From 5 years ago.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 20 16:27:50 2012
From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 12:27:50 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+7Vp5ByxPO-qRGWL1VZpfGfKNzEyWJGkyBuxrvh+ZK7hw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA@mail.gmail.com>, <CAE9rU+7Vp5ByxPO-qRGWL1VZpfGfKNzEyWJGkyBuxrvh+ZK7hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE1C1C6.27634.D3E3C3A@sciguy.vex.net>

On 19 Jun 2012 at 16:50, William Muriithi wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> > It's interesting how everyone notices only this part that is less then 2
> > minutes towards the end of the lecture.
> >
> > I enjoyed listening to all the talk.
> 
> I just remembered something I did not understand and I am wondering if
> there is anyone here who can clarify what he meant.
> 
> Someone had asked him if there was any other language other than C
> that can fit operating system development. He said no and he showed a
> couple of reasons why that is the case.  One of that case was the
> ability to optimize, as he can see the assembly lines that will be
> generated by just looking at the C code.  

He means that, having coded raw machine code without an assembler since 
about age 10, he can now look at C code and visualize in his mind how 
efficient the machine code will be, allowing him to micro-optimize the 
code effectively. That is a rare skill.

> At that point he brought up
> a fact that Linux is the only language 

the only kernel, you mean...

> that can parse file without
> cache miss and apparently this has only been possible the last 18
> months.

I think you mean "without contention". It always accesses the cache.

> 
> I haven't streamed the video again today, just trying to write what I
> though he said and I most likely mis quoted him.  Think though I have
> enough details for one to figure out what section I am referring.  My
> problem though, I didn't really understand what he meant Linux can do
> now.  Either my English language skills is failing me or my operating
> system concepts are weak
> 
> Did anyone figure it out and able to clarify it for us a little challenged?
> 
> William
> >
> > --
> > Ori Idan
> >
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists


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From rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 20 17:04:54 2012
From: rjh-tkNKonCg4laeFQavDyXPBQ at public.gmane.org (Robin Humble)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:04:54 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+7Vp5ByxPO-qRGWL1VZpfGfKNzEyWJGkyBuxrvh+ZK7hw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+7Vp5ByxPO-qRGWL1VZpfGfKNzEyWJGkyBuxrvh+ZK7hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120620170454.GA32030@raccoon.cita.utoronto.ca>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 04:50:48PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
>I just remembered something I did not understand and I am wondering if
>there is anyone here who can clarify what he meant.
>
>Someone had asked him if there was any other language other than C
>that can fit operating system development. He said no and he showed a
>couple of reasons why that is the case.  One of that case was the
>ability to optimize, as he can see the assembly lines that will be
>generated by just looking at the C code.  At that point he brought up
>a fact that Linux is the only language that can parse file without
>cache miss and apparently this has only been possible the last 18
>months.

here's a recent example of the micro-optimisations for pathname
checking he was referring to
  http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/501492/3623664825cadb0f/

and I'm guessing a bit, but I think the '1000 core'(*) lookups in
parallel scalability that he "thought we'd never get there" is
probably the dentry scalabilty and lockless pagecache work done over
many years by (mostly) Nick Piggin
  https://lwn.net/Articles/419811/
  https://lwn.net/Articles/291826/

FYI, Linus's commits are
  http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Ftorvalds%2Flinux.git&a=search&h=HEAD&st=author&s=Linus+Torvalds
(hopefully someone smarter than me can figure out how to grep the
Merge's out and just show his own code?)

cheers,
robin

(*) currently only big ccNuma SGI machines, one day your cell phone?
--
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 20 17:24:24 2012
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:24:24 -0400
Subject: Linus vs. NVidia
In-Reply-To: <4FE1C1C6.27634.D3E3C3A-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340111444.53272.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CACyhTRGKWxkGyQieJFfLAqwnHj+Qv_0y5r0DLb2__0edxWo+pA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAE9rU+7Vp5ByxPO-qRGWL1VZpfGfKNzEyWJGkyBuxrvh+ZK7hw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FE1C1C6.27634.D3E3C3A@sciguy.vex.net>
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5XdMYNcGHCOiWpE8-VKrav5np8gchPvm69ErsthZuF0Bw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:27 PM,  <sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Someone had asked him if there was any other language other than C
>> that can fit operating system development. He said no and he showed a
>> couple of reasons why that is the case. ?One of that case was the
>> ability to optimize, as he can see the assembly lines that will be
>> generated by just looking at the C code.
>
> He means that, having coded raw machine code without an assembler since
> about age 10, he can now look at C code and visualize in his mind how
> efficient the machine code will be, allowing him to micro-optimize the
> code effectively. That is a rare skill.

Yep.

The main other language I can think of that has *reasonably* entered
such debates is BLISS, which was used heavily for systems programming
on VMS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLISS

If you step back in time, the main operating system implementation
languages have been:
a) C, for quite a large set of systems
b) Assembly language, for a large set of now-forgotten systems
c) PL/I derivatives, for MULTICS, OS-360, AIX
d) BLISS, for VMS

There have been experimental systems using other things, but with not
much success.

I wish that Go were a plausible answer to add to the list, but it is a
bit too keen to have garbage collection pre-provided, and I don't
think it tries terribly hard to provide ways to jump out to assembler
for the "pointiest bits."
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
--
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From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 21 00:14:01 2012
From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:14:01 -0400
Subject: Monitor recommendation?
Message-ID: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>

My faithful Samsung 2443bw (1920x1200) just gave up the ghost -- simply
stopped working -- and so I suppose I'm in the market for a new monitor.
Generally I think you can't have too high a resolution, so 2560x1440 is 
certainly an option. Anyone have anything good to say about any high-res
monitors? I do *not* do any sort of gaming or 3D, but I do a lot of detail
work with images and text, if that helps. Samsung has generally treated me
well. Advice, comments, suggestions? Thanks!

-- 
Peter King			 	peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org
Department of Philosophy
170 St. George Street #521
The University of Toronto		    (416)-978-4951 ofc
Toronto, ON  M5R 2M8
       CANADA

http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/

=========================================================================
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From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 21 00:42:56 2012
From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:42:56 -0400
Subject: Monitor recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>
References: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>
Message-ID: <4FE26E10.80305@gmail.com>

i have a 30" hp lp3065  2560x1600 and a dell 28"   2560x1440
The HP is years older but preferable still to Dell.
I have had a samsung (same or sim. to yours) as well (but back light 
blew just out of warranty :(

I have mine on a dual view set up , with a KVM that supports dual view, 
dual hdmi.
One thing i don't like, and may have altered my decision to by the dell 
(which was posted to this group as a insane Dell special),
is that when i kvm swith, the HP flips almost immediately to and fro, 
the dell has to re-sync, and goes black for 3 seconds between each kvm 
stop :(
I run my hp and dell rotated, and dual'd so i get a
1600+1440=3040 width, 2560 height  res. desktop.
The HP's mounts make for nice rotate, the Dell ... the 4 bolt holes are 
square in layout , but the casing get in the way .. it does work 
(barely), and its not pretty.
The HP stands well rotated, the Dell, i have to wire it to desk (to 
worried my tip over).
I am also worried about the back light going, but not sure solid state 
back-lite ones have come down in price yet?
The 2560x1600 and even dual of these is still so small as a desk topv, 
if you can wait, what i am going to do in 1-2 years is,
the gaming industry is forcing 3840x2160 plasma and lcd's (out now, but 
economical next year?),
so if you buy 2 of these, rotate them, you would get a nice,  4320 x 
3840 desk top dual monitor config, by using
two "relatively cheap"  2000$ a peice 55" tv's, giving one a (not going 
to do the Pythagorean now, but) 70"? desk top display? (for 4 bills)
I just wonder when kvm's will come out for this dvi/hdmi cable res? 
(dual dual hdmi ?  i don't even know what cabling allows 3840x2160 )
Computer users will not drive high quanity sales for > 2560 res computer 
monitors, so this is why i am thinking of going with the dual 55" 
lcd/plasm's
as a solution ....
Now of course, your new "monitor" will have to be 15 feet back from your 
desk, but still, it will kick ass!  Now i just have to figure out how to 
make
one rotate easy, so it can go back to "tv" and "ps4" and "xbox720" 
gaming and movie mode, but i think someone sells a bracket for that.




On 06/20/2012 08:14 PM, Peter King wrote:
> My faithful Samsung 2443bw (1920x1200) just gave up the ghost -- simply
> stopped working -- and so I suppose I'm in the market for a new monitor.
> Generally I think you can't have too high a resolution, so 2560x1440 is
> certainly an option. Anyone have anything good to say about any high-res
> monitors? I do *not* do any sort of gaming or 3D, but I do a lot of detail
> work with images and text, if that helps. Samsung has generally treated me
> well. Advice, comments, suggestions? Thanks!
>

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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 21 03:32:00 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:32:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Monitor recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>
References: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206202309470.12256@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org

| My faithful Samsung 2443bw (1920x1200) just gave up the ghost -- simply

| Advice, comments, suggestions? Thanks!

Price is non-linear in size and maybe quality.

I've found mediocre 1920 x 1080 (TN) for almost as low as $100.  Hard
to beat that price.

1920x1200 better-than-TN (IP?) screens might start at $300 (not 100%
sure).

It's hard to go down in resolution!

The Dell UltraSharp line has mostly been good for me.  Good enough
that my experiences are outdated :-).  Here's a sale:
  <http://accessories.dell.com/sna/sna.aspx?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~topic=eandapromotion2>
I'm not saying that these prices are spectacular.

UltraShar's are:
- not TN
- usually multiple inputs
- usually have USB hub built-in
- often smart card readers are built-in (to go with USB)

23" 1920x1080 $229
24" 1920x1200 $429
30" 25560x1600 $1099

Because of the price non-linearity, two of the 23" monitors seems to
have a nice price/performance ratio.  Too bad about the bezels.

For me, I find my (older) 30" Dell to be quite nice.  I have a 24"
too, next to the 30", and don't really feel the need to have them run
the same desktop.

On RedFlagDeals there are often discoveries of monitor deals.  One
that is intriguing/scary: importing inexpensive 27" IPS monitors with
2560x1440 resolution from Korea, through ebay.

Note: anything over 1920x1200 requires a little care with video card
support.  Dual link DVI is required, or now DisplayPort with
sufficient specs.  VGA is out as is HDMI (in practice) and single-link
DVI.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 21 15:04:46 2012
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:04:46 -0400
Subject: Monitor recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206202309470.12256-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>
	<alpine.LRH.2.02.1206202309470.12256@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <CAEnxSC5s0rQWbT5w5h2VDFbGRixCf7ok1U29DPGKYKoBfU=Xxw@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 June 2012 23:32, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
>
> | My faithful Samsung 2443bw (1920x1200) just gave up the ghost -- simply
>
> | Advice, comments, suggestions? Thanks!
>
> Price is non-linear in size and maybe quality.
>
> I've found mediocre 1920 x 1080 (TN) for almost as low as $100. ?Hard
> to beat that price.
>
> 1920x1200 better-than-TN (IP?) screens might start at $300 (not 100%
> sure).
>
> It's hard to go down in resolution!
>
> The Dell UltraSharp line has mostly been good for me. ?Good enough
> that my experiences are outdated :-). ?Here's a sale:
> ?<http://accessories.dell.com/sna/sna.aspx?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~topic=eandapromotion2>
> I'm not saying that these prices are spectacular.
>
> UltraShar's are:
> - not TN
> - usually multiple inputs
> - usually have USB hub built-in
> - often smart card readers are built-in (to go with USB)
>
> 23" 1920x1080 $229
> 24" 1920x1200 $429
> 30" 25560x1600 $1099
>
> Because of the price non-linearity, two of the 23" monitors seems to
> have a nice price/performance ratio. ?Too bad about the bezels.
>
> For me, I find my (older) 30" Dell to be quite nice. ?I have a 24"
> too, next to the 30", and don't really feel the need to have them run
> the same desktop.
>
> On RedFlagDeals there are often discoveries of monitor deals. ?One
> that is intriguing/scary: importing inexpensive 27" IPS monitors with
> 2560x1440 resolution from Korea, through ebay.
>
> Note: anything over 1920x1200 requires a little care with video card
> support. ?Dual link DVI is required, or now DisplayPort with
> sufficient specs. ?VGA is out as is HDMI (in practice) and single-link
> DVI.

Financially I agree with Hugh: two good 23-24" Samsungs would be much
cheaper than the Dell UltraSharp 30" I bought recently.  But I was
sick to death of dealing with the "quirky" problems of proprietary
dual head drivers and the Dell has made me very, very happy.  Single
screen 2560x1600, lovely colours, and IMMENSE.  I don't think I've
actually full-screened an app (other than a movie) since I bought the
thing - it's overwhelming.

Given that it's summer, I should perhaps point out that the 30" Dell
doubles nicely as a room heater.  I have a 24" Samsung (I bought it
because it's got a higher res than 1920x1200 ... don't remember the
numbers right now) that I like, I seem to recall it pulls about 25W.
Dell lists the 30" UltraSharp as "110W(typical)" but I think it's more
than that.  Fine during the winter but really unpleasant during the
summer.  And not very environmentally friendly.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 21 15:07:16 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:07:16 -0400
Subject: Monitor recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>
References: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>
Message-ID: <20120621150716.GE32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:14:01PM -0400, Peter King wrote:
> My faithful Samsung 2443bw (1920x1200) just gave up the ghost -- simply
> stopped working -- and so I suppose I'm in the market for a new monitor.
> Generally I think you can't have too high a resolution, so 2560x1440 is 
> certainly an option. Anyone have anything good to say about any high-res
> monitors? I do *not* do any sort of gaming or 3D, but I do a lot of detail
> work with images and text, if that helps. Samsung has generally treated me
> well. Advice, comments, suggestions? Thanks!

I have been very happy with the Dell high end monitors (I have a 2407 and
2408 at home, and a 2408 at work, and my parents have a 2410 and 3008).

They often have sales which is obviously the best time to pick one up.

They currently have the U2711 on sale for $799 (2560x1440) and the U3011
on sale for $1099 (2560x1600).  You really can't beat a nice IPS panel
for viewing angle and colour quality.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 21 15:10:29 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:10:29 -0400
Subject: Monitor recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <4FE26E10.80305-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>
 <4FE26E10.80305@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120621151029.GF32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:42:56PM -0400, Ted wrote:
> i have a 30" hp lp3065  2560x1600 and a dell 28"   2560x1440
> The HP is years older but preferable still to Dell.
> I have had a samsung (same or sim. to yours) as well (but back light
> blew just out of warranty :(
> 
> I have mine on a dual view set up , with a KVM that supports dual
> view, dual hdmi.
> One thing i don't like, and may have altered my decision to by the
> dell (which was posted to this group as a insane Dell special),
> is that when i kvm swith, the HP flips almost immediately to and
> fro, the dell has to re-sync, and goes black for 3 seconds between
> each kvm stop :(
> I run my hp and dell rotated, and dual'd so i get a
> 1600+1440=3040 width, 2560 height  res. desktop.
> The HP's mounts make for nice rotate, the Dell ... the 4 bolt holes
> are square in layout , but the casing get in the way .. it does work
> (barely), and its not pretty.
> The HP stands well rotated, the Dell, i have to wire it to desk (to
> worried my tip over).

Wouldn't it be safer to get a proper monitor mount to use?  I am pretty
sure they use the standard vesa bolt pattern.

> I am also worried about the back light going, but not sure solid
> state back-lite ones have come down in price yet?
> The 2560x1600 and even dual of these is still so small as a desk
> topv, if you can wait, what i am going to do in 1-2 years is,
> the gaming industry is forcing 3840x2160 plasma and lcd's (out now,
> but economical next year?),
> so if you buy 2 of these, rotate them, you would get a nice,  4320 x
> 3840 desk top dual monitor config, by using
> two "relatively cheap"  2000$ a peice 55" tv's, giving one a (not
> going to do the Pythagorean now, but) 70"? desk top display? (for 4
> bills)
> I just wonder when kvm's will come out for this dvi/hdmi cable res?
> (dual dual hdmi ?  i don't even know what cabling allows 3840x2160 )

HDMI 1.4 and displayport should both support that.  Not sure any graphics
cards do however.

> Computer users will not drive high quanity sales for > 2560 res
> computer monitors, so this is why i am thinking of going with the
> dual 55" lcd/plasm's
> as a solution ....
> Now of course, your new "monitor" will have to be 15 feet back from
> your desk, but still, it will kick ass!  Now i just have to figure
> out how to make
> one rotate easy, so it can go back to "tv" and "ps4" and "xbox720"
> gaming and movie mode, but i think someone sells a bracket for that.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 21 15:14:47 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:14:47 -0400
Subject: Monitor recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAEnxSC5s0rQWbT5w5h2VDFbGRixCf7ok1U29DPGKYKoBfU=Xxw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120621001401.GA4046@amber>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206202309470.12256@redclaw.mimosa.com>
 <CAEnxSC5s0rQWbT5w5h2VDFbGRixCf7ok1U29DPGKYKoBfU=Xxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120621151447.GG32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:04:46AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> Financially I agree with Hugh: two good 23-24" Samsungs would be much
> cheaper than the Dell UltraSharp 30" I bought recently.  But I was
> sick to death of dealing with the "quirky" problems of proprietary
> dual head drivers and the Dell has made me very, very happy.  Single
> screen 2560x1600, lovely colours, and IMMENSE.  I don't think I've
> actually full-screened an app (other than a movie) since I bought the
> thing - it's overwhelming.

If I needed more space than a 24" 1920x1200 provides, I would go with a
single larger screen.  I have dealing with the bezel between two screens.
Not to mention trying to convince a lot of games not to spread across
both screens.  I run a 24" attached to my laptop, and that can get
annoying at times.  I mainly use the 24" to run a mythtv frontend,
while doing other things on the laptop screen.

> Given that it's summer, I should perhaps point out that the 30" Dell
> doubles nicely as a room heater.  I have a 24" Samsung (I bought it
> because it's got a higher res than 1920x1200 ... don't remember the
> numbers right now) that I like, I seem to recall it pulls about 25W.
> Dell lists the 30" UltraSharp as "110W(typical)" but I think it's more
> than that.  Fine during the winter but really unpleasant during the
> summer.  And not very environmentally friendly.

A sun 3/50 with 12MB ram makes a nice room heater.  The Dell is just a
tad warm. :)

Would be nice if they had LED backlights instead, but that doesn't seem
very common on IPS based screens yet for some reason.  Maybe the LED
backlights don't have proper colour handling yet.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 21 17:04:57 2012
From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:04:57 -0400
Subject: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
Message-ID: <201206211304.59123.icanprogram@295.ca>

We are having a lot of problems debugging a TCP/IP connect problem between my 
associate's Arduino and my Linode server app.    The gist of the problem is 
described here:

http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino

It would appear that the chip used to handle the TCP/IP stack on the Arduino 
thinks that the socket connection it establishes (as a client) has not 
succeeded and it times out.    However, on the Linode side we observe that 
the socket connection has succeeded (ie. been accepted) because we get our 
child process spawned.   Furthermore if we use the Linux C client we never 
observe a client socket timeout from my associates node.

The server code is listed in the link above, and uses a traditional accept 
connection -> fork child handler approach.   The child process immediately 
closes the duplicated parent listener socket.   The parent process 
immediately closes the duplicated accepted socket file descriptor.

From my travels in Google land it appears that there is a 3 way hand shake 
involving SYN and ACK TCP/IP packets which are exchanged to consumate a 
socket connection.    I'm guessing these are the messages that the Arduino 
Wiznet w5100 chip is missing.   I certainly don't know how to control this 
level from my high level C library.

Interestingly if the Arduino is instructed to connect to the port 80 on my 
Linode it succeeds in that connect almost 100% of the time whereas the 
connections to my custom server fails more than 90% of the time. 

I'd love to hear some thoughts on how we might go about debugging this 
problem.    If you know of any Arduino developers out there,  we'd love to 
have more eyeballs on this problem.

Thanks in advance for your help.

bob
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 05:27:56 2012
From: teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy mills)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 01:27:56 -0400
Subject: zoc terminal
Message-ID: <CAEEQVTKjDBibKGbT_40qBP=EDKvW+O8ajnR1X6-BAXnjjCAzgQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.emtec.com/download.html#zocfiles

One could do worse than Zoc Terminal.
You may ask why a Windows+Mac version only?

Well the Linux desktop is slow, even with the current video drivers is not
as snappy as Windows.
With all the virtualization tools, it does not matter if your desktop is
Windows, all the servers of course are Tux.

I have been using Putty and various addons.

Zoc is a much better terminal product.
I dont care that it is commercial. It was worth every penny.

The best feature is the TABS+FOLDERS..You can easily log into hundreds of
servers in a second.

The other nice feature is that I use Dropbox. Your mileage may vary.
I put the Zoc Configuration folder on the Dropbox...and no matter where I
go...all my servers are ready+configured.

The logs is also a nice feature..It writes every server you login to..into
its own log file.
Good for reviewing commands and you dont have to login to servers to review
logs.

You know how you have to convert PEM files to PPK with Putty-Gen?
That step is no longer needed with ZOC. Zoc reads the PEM directly...
Makes working with Amazon PEMS easy.

Another feature is the login tab
You can tell Zoc to auto log you into your server, drop you right to your
shell. This will save you a lot of typing.

It also has a record function.
I was using this feature so after it logs you into the the first server, it
sshs to another server on a different subnet.
Again, much typing saved.

Anyways, just to let you know..

Teddy
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From hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 06:17:16 2012
From: hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Burhan Hanoglu)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 23:17:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: zoc terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAEEQVTKjDBibKGbT_40qBP=EDKvW+O8ajnR1X6-BAXnjjCAzgQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAEEQVTKjDBibKGbT_40qBP=EDKvW+O8ajnR1X6-BAXnjjCAzgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340345836.12249.YahooMailNeo@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Is this sarcasm or a joke for fun?


Burhan




>________________________________
> From: teddy mills <teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org 
>Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:27:56 AM
>Subject: [TLUG]: zoc terminal
> 
>
>
>http://www.emtec.com/download.html#zocfiles
>
>One could do worse than Zoc Terminal. 
>You may ask why a Windows+Mac version only?
>
>Well the Linux desktop is slow, even with the current video drivers is not as snappy as Windows.
>With all the virtualization tools, it does not matter if your desktop is Windows, all the servers of course are Tux.
>
>I have been using Putty and various addons.
>
>Zoc is a much better terminal product. 
>I dont care that it is commercial. It was worth every penny.
>
>The best feature is the TABS+FOLDERS..You can easily log into hundreds of servers in a second.
>
>The other nice feature is that I use Dropbox. Your mileage may vary.
>I put the Zoc Configuration folder on the Dropbox...and no matter where I go...all my servers are ready+configured.
>
>The logs is also a nice feature..It writes every server you login to..into its own log file. 
>Good for reviewing commands and you dont have to login to servers to review logs.
>
>You know how you have to convert PEM files to PPK with Putty-Gen? 
>That step is no longer needed with ZOC. Zoc reads the PEM directly...
>Makes working with Amazon PEMS easy.
>
>Another feature is the login tab
>You can tell Zoc to auto log you into your server, drop you right to your shell. This will save you a lot of typing.
>
>It also has a record function.
>I was using this feature so after it logs you into the the first server, it sshs to another server on a different subnet. 
>Again, much typing saved.
>
>Anyways, just to let you know..
>
>Teddy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 08:44:14 2012
From: teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy mills)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 04:44:14 -0400
Subject: zoc terminal
In-Reply-To: <1340345836.12249.YahooMailNeo-JjjobmVX0cE/JfqJOfUXs/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAEEQVTKjDBibKGbT_40qBP=EDKvW+O8ajnR1X6-BAXnjjCAzgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340345836.12249.YahooMailNeo@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEEQVTLOOLnvmQ8bxX5usbCD7O6XRQOvnbQLtJUy1-VTTd76Eg@mail.gmail.com>

Neither. Just a tool to get your work done.

In this case it works for me.
If it does not work for you, c'est la vie.

If you know of an open source product that does a similar or better job,
please let me know.




On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 2:17 AM, Burhan Hanoglu <hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Is this sarcasm or a joke for fun?
>
> Burhan
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* teddy mills <teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> *To:* tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2012 1:27:56 AM
> *Subject:* [TLUG]: zoc terminal
>
>
> http://www.emtec.com/download.html#zocfiles
>
> One could do worse than Zoc Terminal.
> You may ask why a Windows+Mac version only?
>
> Well the Linux desktop is slow, even with the current video drivers is not
> as snappy as Windows.
> With all the virtualization tools, it does not matter if your desktop is
> Windows, all the servers of course are Tux.
>
> I have been using Putty and various addons.
>
> Zoc is a much better terminal product.
> I dont care that it is commercial. It was worth every penny.
>
> The best feature is the TABS+FOLDERS..You can easily log into hundreds of
> servers in a second.
>
> The other nice feature is that I use Dropbox. Your mileage may vary.
> I put the Zoc Configuration folder on the Dropbox...and no matter where I
> go...all my servers are ready+configured.
>
> The logs is also a nice feature..It writes every server you login to..into
> its own log file.
> Good for reviewing commands and you dont have to login to servers to
> review logs.
>
> You know how you have to convert PEM files to PPK with Putty-Gen?
> That step is no longer needed with ZOC. Zoc reads the PEM directly...
> Makes working with Amazon PEMS easy.
>
> Another feature is the login tab
> You can tell Zoc to auto log you into your server, drop you right to your
> shell. This will save you a lot of typing.
>
> It also has a record function.
> I was using this feature so after it logs you into the the first server,
> it sshs to another server on a different subnet.
> Again, much typing saved.
>
> Anyways, just to let you know..
>
> Teddy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 11:51:28 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 07:51:28 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com>

Coming at you from my new Cubox, actually one of two that I bought on
an impulse one day a few months ago and forgot about...

Anyway, it doesn't impress me as much as I thought it would, which I
would have known if I did a little research, so I don't blame the
developers.

For one thing, I needed to reinstall dbus right away, in order to be
able to change the date and for the sound to work. Actually, prior to
that the network was not connecting either, but once I pulled out the
network cable and plugged it in again it found the router.

What I was not aware of is that there are no packages available for
things like XBMC or even Chrome or Flash, so I've got no reason to
connect this to a TV just yet. The instructions for getting XBMC
working on here seem to imply drastic changes to the built-in
software, so I'm hesitant to try that just yet.

And overall the system seems surprisingly slow. It is pretty much what
I had with my old AMD Sempron. I suppose it might work better with a
different OS running, but again I misunderstood something, because I
could have sworn they said this came with both Ubuntu Linux and
Android OS. Most applications are very slow to respond, especially if
more than a few are running at the same time.

I'll say this, it sure is small and quiet ;)

If anyone else has their Cubox and can share some of their successes
with this device I would be very happy to learn about it, I would
especially be interested in shortcuts for getting XBMC or at least
something similar working.

Also, I have an extra Cubox, so if anyone is really desperate to get
their hands on one I currently have no imminent need for it.

-- 
Thomas Milne
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 14:12:41 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 10:12:41 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120622141241.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:51:28AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote:
> Coming at you from my new Cubox, actually one of two that I bought on
> an impulse one day a few months ago and forgot about...
> 
> Anyway, it doesn't impress me as much as I thought it would, which I
> would have known if I did a little research, so I don't blame the
> developers.
> 
> For one thing, I needed to reinstall dbus right away, in order to be
> able to change the date and for the sound to work. Actually, prior to
> that the network was not connecting either, but once I pulled out the
> network cable and plugged it in again it found the router.
> 
> What I was not aware of is that there are no packages available for
> things like XBMC or even Chrome or Flash, so I've got no reason to
> connect this to a TV just yet. The instructions for getting XBMC
> working on here seem to imply drastic changes to the built-in
> software, so I'm hesitant to try that just yet.
> 
> And overall the system seems surprisingly slow. It is pretty much what
> I had with my old AMD Sempron. I suppose it might work better with a
> different OS running, but again I misunderstood something, because I
> could have sworn they said this came with both Ubuntu Linux and
> Android OS. Most applications are very slow to respond, especially if
> more than a few are running at the same time.
> 
> I'll say this, it sure is small and quiet ;)
> 
> If anyone else has their Cubox and can share some of their successes
> with this device I would be very happy to learn about it, I would
> especially be interested in shortcuts for getting XBMC or at least
> something similar working.
> 
> Also, I have an extra Cubox, so if anyone is really desperate to get
> their hands on one I currently have no imminent need for it.

Well I was planning on ordering one to try and get mythfrontend running
on it.

Did you order two or something?

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 15:27:54 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 11:27:54 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
In-Reply-To: <20120622141241.GH32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120622141241.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Lennart Sorensen
<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:51:28AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote:
>> Coming at you from my new Cubox, actually one of two that I bought on
>> an impulse one day a few months ago and forgot about...
>>
>> Anyway, it doesn't impress me as much as I thought it would, which I
>> would have known if I did a little research, so I don't blame the
>> developers.
>>
>> For one thing, I needed to reinstall dbus right away, in order to be
>> able to change the date and for the sound to work. Actually, prior to
>> that the network was not connecting either, but once I pulled out the
>> network cable and plugged it in again it found the router.
>>
>> What I was not aware of is that there are no packages available for
>> things like XBMC or even Chrome or Flash, so I've got no reason to
>> connect this to a TV just yet. The instructions for getting XBMC
>> working on here seem to imply drastic changes to the built-in
>> software, so I'm hesitant to try that just yet.
>>
>> And overall the system seems surprisingly slow. It is pretty much what
>> I had with my old AMD Sempron. I suppose it might work better with a
>> different OS running, but again I misunderstood something, because I
>> could have sworn they said this came with both Ubuntu Linux and
>> Android OS. Most applications are very slow to respond, especially if
>> more than a few are running at the same time.
>>
>> I'll say this, it sure is small and quiet ;)
>>
>> If anyone else has their Cubox and can share some of their successes
>> with this device I would be very happy to learn about it, I would
>> especially be interested in shortcuts for getting XBMC or at least
>> something similar working.
>>
>> Also, I have an extra Cubox, so if anyone is really desperate to get
>> their hands on one I currently have no imminent need for it.
>
> Well I was planning on ordering one to try and get mythfrontend running
> on it.
>
> Did you order two or something?
>

Yeah, I have a problem with impulsive buying. I thought from what I
read that it either came with XBMC or that it was an available
software package. Oops!

Are you sure about MythTV, though? There aren't even instructions I
can find for compiling on ARM, and the Myth wiki even advises against
using ARM. Sort of.

Seriously, it's freaking me out how quiet this thing is.

-- 
Thomas Milne
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 16:59:32 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:59:32 -0400
Subject: Thunderbolt -- here we go again...
Message-ID: <20120622165932.GA32562@node1.opengeometry.net>

Hi All,

Just came across motherboard with Thunderbolt connectors,
    <http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z77V_PROTHUNDERBOLT/>
    <https://thunderbolttechnology.net/products>
which means, pretty soon, we have to replace our SATA harddisks, as we
did with EIDE ones.
-- 
William
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 17:07:11 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 13:07:11 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120622141241.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120622170711.GI32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:27:54AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote:
> Yeah, I have a problem with impulsive buying. I thought from what I
> read that it either came with XBMC or that it was an available
> software package. Oops!
> 
> Are you sure about MythTV, though? There aren't even instructions I
> can find for compiling on ARM, and the Myth wiki even advises against
> using ARM. Sort of.

I don't care if it works now.  I intend to make it work.

debian multimedia has mythtv built for armhf.  No idea if anyone has
tested it yet.

> Seriously, it's freaking me out how quiet this thing is.

I think it looks perfect as a mythtv frontend sitting next to the TV.

If you want to sell one for whatever they cost to buy I am interested.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 17:09:31 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 13:09:31 -0400
Subject: Thunderbolt -- here we go again...
In-Reply-To: <20120622165932.GA32562-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120622165932.GA32562@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <20120622170931.GJ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 12:59:32PM -0400, William Park wrote:
> Just came across motherboard with Thunderbolt connectors,
>     <http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z77V_PROTHUNDERBOLT/>
>     <https://thunderbolttechnology.net/products>
> which means, pretty soon, we have to replace our SATA harddisks, as we
> did with EIDE ones.

No it most certainly does not mean anything remotely like that.

Thunderbolt is an external connector only meant to compete with USB3 and
possibly eSATA (although that is of course limited to storage devices,
unlike USB3 and thunderbolt).

Thunderbolt is simply PCI express over an external cable.  Very useful,
although somewhat expensive to implement so far.  You would not usually
consider connecting your disk directly to PCI express so you also would
not connect a disk directly to thunderbolt.  You need a controller
in between.  A thunderbolt connected PCI express SATA controller with
SATA disks connected makes perfect sense in an enclosure though.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 17:39:11 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 13:39:11 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com> <20120622141241.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE4ADBF.5050405@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-06-22 11:27 AM, Thomas Milne wrote:
> Are you sure about MythTV, though? There aren't even instructions I
> can find for compiling on ARM, and the Myth wiki even advises against
> using ARM. Sort of.

With a small device like the Cubox you would be better of cross-compiling 
code for the ARM processor.

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 17:42:59 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 13:42:59 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
In-Reply-To: <4FE4ADBF.5050405-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120622141241.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE4ADBF.5050405@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <20120622174259.GK32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 01:39:11PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> With a small device like the Cubox you would be better of
> cross-compiling code for the ARM processor.

No thanks.  Cross compiling is a horrible idea for most open source
projects because autoconf is too damn popular.  Now qemu + multiarch is
possibly going to change that, but until it is fully ready I will stick
with native compiles.

Besides if you have an 800MHz or 1GHz machines with 1GB ram, compiling
really isn't a big deal.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 19:00:26 2012
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:00:26 -0400
Subject: Thunderbolt -- here we go again...
In-Reply-To: <20120622170931.GJ32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120622165932.GA32562@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120622170931.GJ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE4C0CA.9040101@utoronto.ca>

On 22/06/12 01:09 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Thunderbolt is simply PCI express over an external cable.  Very useful,
> although somewhat expensive to implement so far.  You would not usually
> consider connecting your disk directly to PCI express so you also would
> not connect a disk directly to thunderbolt.  You need a controller
> in between.  A thunderbolt connected PCI express SATA controller with
> SATA disks connected makes perfect sense in an enclosure though.

OCZ have a sought after line of PCI-e SSD drives in consumer (Revodrive)
and enterprise (Velodrive) segments:

www.ocztechnology.com/ocz-revodrive-pci-express-ssd.html

--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 19:01:51 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:01:51 -0400
Subject: Thunderbolt -- here we go again...
In-Reply-To: <4FE4C0CA.9040101-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120622165932.GA32562@node1.opengeometry.net>
 <20120622170931.GJ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FE4C0CA.9040101@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20120622190151.GL32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 03:00:26PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> OCZ have a sought after line of PCI-e SSD drives in consumer (Revodrive)
> and enterprise (Velodrive) segments:
> 
> www.ocztechnology.com/ocz-revodrive-pci-express-ssd.html

They would need a huge price change before there is any chance those
will replace hard disks.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 19:11:01 2012
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:11:01 -0400
Subject: Thunderbolt -- here we go again...
In-Reply-To: <20120622190151.GL32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120622165932.GA32562@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120622170931.GJ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FE4C0CA.9040101@utoronto.ca> <20120622190151.GL32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE4C345.9090103@utoronto.ca>

On 22/06/12 03:01 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 03:00:26PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:
>> OCZ have a sought after line of PCI-e SSD drives in consumer (Revodrive)
>> and enterprise (Velodrive) segments:
>>
>> www.ocztechnology.com/ocz-revodrive-pci-express-ssd.html
> 
> They would need a huge price change before there is any chance those
> will replace hard disks.

Depends on the user's requirements. For caching storage with 500+MB/s
read performance in real-world tests, it is a compelling technology. A
good example is last.fm, who use SSD storage up front for commonly
accessed files, and regular spinning disk for lesser listened to songs.
A full TB of SSD out front would make a world of difference when
streaming the same files to multiple users at a time.

Jamon
--
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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 19:29:54 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:29:54 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
In-Reply-To: <20120622174259.GK32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com> <20120622141241.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g@mail.gmail.com> <4FE4ADBF.5050405@ve3syb.ca> <20120622174259.GK32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE4C7B2.5040606@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-06-22 01:42 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> No thanks.  Cross compiling is a horrible idea for most open source
> projects because autoconf is too damn popular.  Now qemu + multiarch is
> possibly going to change that, but until it is fully ready I will stick
> with native compiles.

It will depend on what you need/want to compile, the build environment, and 
what other packages may be required as dependencies. I cross compiled 
ghostscript for ARM in order to be able to print to a printer.

> Besides if you have an 800MHz or 1GHz machines with 1GB ram, compiling
> really isn't a big deal.

No, not as long as you have the RAM/SD Card/HD space to hold all the 
compiler tools and link libraries.


-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 20:02:31 2012
From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 16:02:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: zoc terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAEEQVTKjDBibKGbT_40qBP=EDKvW+O8ajnR1X6-BAXnjjCAzgQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAEEQVTKjDBibKGbT_40qBP=EDKvW+O8ajnR1X6-BAXnjjCAzgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LMD.2.00.1206221600070.12249@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012, teddy mills wrote:

> http://www.emtec.com/download.html#zocfiles
>
> One could do worse than Zoc Terminal.

     I couldn't, since it will not run on any machine I own.

     Besedes, it doesn't offer anything I don't already have.

-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson, <http://cfajohnson.com/>
    Author:
    Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 21:18:04 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:18:04 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
In-Reply-To: <4FE4C7B2.5040606-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120622141241.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE4ADBF.5050405@ve3syb.ca>
 <20120622174259.GK32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FE4C7B2.5040606@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <20120622211804.GM32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 03:29:54PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> It will depend on what you need/want to compile, the build
> environment, and what other packages may be required as
> dependencies. I cross compiled ghostscript for ARM in order to be
> able to print to a printer.
> 
> No, not as long as you have the RAM/SD Card/HD space to hold all the
> compiler tools and link libraries.

My imx53 has a 160GB SATA disk and 1GB ram.  I compile lots of stuff
on it.

It isn't as fast as compiling on a 2.67GHz Core i7 with 6GB ram or a
3.7GHz 6 core P710 with 16GB ram, but it isn't too bad.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 22 23:26:25 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:26:25 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
In-Reply-To: <20120622211804.GM32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com> <20120622141241.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g@mail.gmail.com> <4FE4ADBF.5050405@ve3syb.ca> <20120622174259.GK32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FE4C7B2.5040606@ve3syb.ca> <20120622211804.GM32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE4FF21.7040003@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-06-22 05:18 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> My imx53 has a 160GB SATA disk and 1GB ram.  I compile lots of stuff
> on it.

Aren't you the fortunate one. I was compiling for an ARM based board with 
32Meg Flash and 64 Meg RAM. Can't really host a development environment in 
that limited space.

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 01:45:49 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:45:49 -0400
Subject: Got my Cubox
In-Reply-To: <4FE4FF21.7040003-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF5a_TFeedoyJ11PQyKKYenvpKCn0xLqgjFW5G5BT0guAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120622141241.GH32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CAGc8pF7XbSOBNGnGV4TXaPvBYUAORqnQ7iSHyBUNxN6Pd7i77g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE4ADBF.5050405@ve3syb.ca>
 <20120622174259.GK32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FE4C7B2.5040606@ve3syb.ca>
 <20120622211804.GM32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FE4FF21.7040003@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <20120623014549.GN32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:26:25PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> Aren't you the fortunate one. I was compiling for an ARM based board
> with 32Meg Flash and 64 Meg RAM. Can't really host a development
> environment in that limited space.

Worst ARM compiling I did was about 8 years ago using 64MB ram, 400MHz
CPU (PXA255) and a 10GB IDE drive.  It did get the job done eventually.
32MB flash would be a problem.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 11:49:39 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:49:39 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm thinking the next gadget I would like to play with is an antenna
to pick up some of digital signals in Toronto. Anyone have any good
experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?

-- 
Thomas Milne
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 11:58:21 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:58:21 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF7bVKJeKDzsFyqTqOhXwe7i5-vi6c7T66Bxe2FY4Gzn-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Thomas Milne
<thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I'm thinking the next gadget I would like to play with is an antenna
> to pick up some of digital signals in Toronto. Anyone have any good
> experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?
>

Found this:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/640344--how-to-get-free-hdtv

and from there, this:

http://www.saveandreplay.com/localpickup.asp

-- 
Thomas Milne
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 11:58:42 2012
From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:58:42 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPik5Myrd+87gKqV7bq_scbXeU8mQGacfKifK1bF9YY_MrUdTQ@mail.gmail.com>

I don't have a retail recommendation but read up on Grey-Hoverman antenna's.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Thomas Milne
<thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>wrote:

> I'm thinking the next gadget I would like to play with is an antenna
> to pick up some of digital signals in Toronto. Anyone have any good
> experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?
>
> --
> Thomas Milne
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 12:05:47 2012
From: anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Anthony Verevkin)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:05:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cc19763b-3b72-41f7-b6da-bed26e672481@zimbra>

> Anyone have any good
> experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?

>From my experience the best price and quality is with the $20 antenna from Canada Computers. My friends have it and I've been comparing it to the Channel Master 4221 that I have and it is very similar and performs as well.

Regards,
Anthony
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From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 14:40:21 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:40:21 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <cc19763b-3b72-41f7-b6da-bed26e672481@zimbra>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com>
	<cc19763b-3b72-41f7-b6da-bed26e672481@zimbra>
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF6XPxG9L=7D-H3mFRr_7KEppbaywsR=6F9re46POqJm=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Anthony Verevkin <anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Anyone have any good
>> experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?
>
> From my experience the best price and quality is with the $20 antenna from Canada Computers. My friends have it and I've been comparing it to the Channel Master 4221 that I have and it is very similar and performs as well.
>

Great tip, thanks. I was seriously looking at that exact antenna, the
4221. I'll definitely check out the one from Canada computers now. I
really hate commercial TV, so this is in no way going to be a main
source of entertainment, just for lulz.

-- 
Thomas Milne
--
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From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 14:48:56 2012
From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:48:56 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <cc19763b-3b72-41f7-b6da-bed26e672481@zimbra>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com>
	<cc19763b-3b72-41f7-b6da-bed26e672481@zimbra>
Message-ID: <CAGc8pF6EWv+7mYXoJ1V+8iMdU7G0=n_Rnp1AS=0nbADkApDa9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Anthony Verevkin <anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Anyone have any good
>> experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?
>
> From my experience the best price and quality is with the $20 antenna from Canada Computers. My friends have it and I've been comparing it to the Channel Master 4221 that I have and it is very similar and performs as well.
>
This one?

http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=164_165&item_id=021643

-- 
Thomas Milne
--
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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 16:30:42 2012
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:30:42 -0400
Subject: interesting hackable device?
In-Reply-To: <515eedb6c18569c1aa097c1658378e43.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.00.1005221406330.21368@redclaw.mimosa.com>
 <AANLkTil6YcJQf7p7rWlutxiDZG4YsI6XNtwEn_CRPINC@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.00.1005241111510.21368@redclaw.mimosa.com> <515eedb6c18569c1aa097c1658378e43.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>
Message-ID: <CAEx-jsNvQjoUDyxMR8Wd6-PDYXi+0eR_Rn0EG4qLS1ktpdrdnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 11:50 AM,  <phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> How about this?
>
> http://netbook-review.com/pandora/pandora/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_(console)
>
> Apparently available for $330.

I recently stumbled on this device via <http://designsomething.org/>.
Looks like the Pandora <http://openpandora.org/> runs about $500
through <http://www.ithic.com/> which is more than I'd like to spend.
Very, very tempting though.

-- 
? Scott Elcomb
? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca

? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems
? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/

? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada
? http://www.pirateparty.ca/
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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 17:12:31 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:12:31 -0400
Subject: interesting hackable device?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.1005241111510.21368-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.00.1005221406330.21368@redclaw.mimosa.com> <AANLkTil6YcJQf7p7rWlutxiDZG4YsI6XNtwEn_CRPINC@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.1005241111510.21368@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <4FE5F8FF.9050608@ve3syb.ca>

From: Christopher Browne<cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> Here is a link to the first readily acquirable ARM-based laptop that I've seen:
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39391

Interesting device. I'm surprised at its low price (under $100). BTW, the 
website says they ship to Canada.

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 17:46:28 2012
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:46:28 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJUuK_D2P6FviJnZBbptWwJLp78NsK+BitxVq8GkGtu3aj-Okw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Thomas Milne
<thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I'm thinking the next gadget I would like to play with is an antenna
> to pick up some of digital signals in Toronto. Anyone have any good
> experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?

Several years ago I bought a Winegard GS 2200
(http://www.winegarddirect.com/sensar-III-gs2000-gs2200/winegard-sensar-III-antenna.asp)
off eBay for $9.99 + shipping. Before putting in a bid for the antenna
I did some research on-line and the consensus was that for $70 it was
a moderate performer for a moderate price. So, I got a moderate
performer at a great price. I'll admit there are better antennas out
there, but I have been basically happy with what I got and if you can
get it at a seriously discount below list price would recommend it.

Colin McGregor

> --
> Thomas Milne
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jun 23 19:32:18 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 15:32:18 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF6EWv+7mYXoJ1V+8iMdU7G0=n_Rnp1AS=0nbADkApDa9w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com> <cc19763b-3b72-41f7-b6da-bed26e672481@zimbra> <CAGc8pF6EWv+7mYXoJ1V+8iMdU7G0=n_Rnp1AS=0nbADkApDa9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE619C2.1070406@rogers.com>

Thomas Milne wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Anthony Verevkin<anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org>  wrote:
>>> Anyone have any good
>>> experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?
>>  From my experience the best price and quality is with the $20 antenna from Canada Computers. My friends have it and I've been comparing it to the Channel Master 4221 that I have and it is very similar and performs as well.
>>
> This one?
>
> http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=164_165&item_id=021643
>

One thing you have to be careful of is some antenna, such as this one, 
are UHF only, but there are still some VHF stations around, such as 
CKVR, Barrie on Ch 10 and CHCH, Hamiliton on Ch 11.  If you go with this 
model, you'll need another antenna for those 2 channels.  Or you could 
buy one that covers both VHF high and UHF.  I don't think there are any 
VHF low channels in this area.

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From anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 24 14:52:37 2012
From: anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Anthony Verevkin)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:52:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <4FE619C2.1070406-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4FE619C2.1070406@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <a1960e52-fb5d-40f7-8990-df8e51a39da3@zimbra>

> >>  From my experience the best price and quality is with the $20
> >>  antenna from Canada Computers. My friends have it and I've been
> >>  comparing it to the Channel Master 4221 that I have and it is
> >>  very similar and performs as well.
> > This one?
> > http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=164_165&item_id=021643

No, this is the one: http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=164_165&item_id=016930
You might notice the wire rods and everything is just like on the 4221, that's why I noticed. I can say nothing about the other one.


> One thing you have to be careful of is some antenna, such as this
> one, are UHF only, but there are still some VHF stations around, such as
> CKVR, Barrie on Ch 10 and CHCH, Hamiliton on Ch 11.  If you go with
> this model, you'll need another antenna for those 2 channels.

One other thing. All these antennas are highly directional. So anyway you cannot point the same antenna from GTA to all - CN Tower, Buffalo, Barrie and Hamilton, you would need several antennas if you want to pick it all up. On the other hand from what I've heard, broadcasters have moved from VHF analog to UHF digital because they needed to do both analog and digital at the same time. But now that analog is dead they might consider switching their digital broadcasting back to the powerful VHF transmitters that they own. We'll see.

P.S. You'll be good with the 4-bay antenna if you want to get the channels from Canada and Buffalo. However if you are thinking of trying to get some Rochester or Erie channels, you want to go for an 8-bay antenna.

P.P.S. One thing I like about the OTA TV is that it is similar to fishing. You can do as much as you can to prepare well but you never know what you are going to catch :)

Also check out the following two websites: freetoronto.tv/map1.htm and www.tvfool.com

Regards,
Anthony
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 24 15:07:03 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:07:03 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <a1960e52-fb5d-40f7-8990-df8e51a39da3@zimbra>
References: <a1960e52-fb5d-40f7-8990-df8e51a39da3@zimbra>
Message-ID: <4FE72D17.90606@rogers.com>

Anthony Verevkin wrote:
> One other thing. All these antennas are highly directional. So anyway you cannot point the same antenna from GTA to all - CN Tower, Buffalo, Barrie and Hamilton, you would need several antennas if you want to pick it all up. On the other hand from what I've heard, broadcasters have moved from VHF analog to UHF digital because they needed to do both analog and digital at the same time. But now that analog is dead they might consider switching their digital broadcasting back to the powerful VHF transmitters that they own. We'll see.

Antenna rotators have long been used to aim antennas in the appropriate 
direction.  Most of the digital transmitters are on UHF, but there are 
some on VHF high, as I mentioned.  VHF low does not work well with 
digital.  Since both CKVR (CTV Too) and CHCH are in significantly 
different directions from most of the other stations in this area, it's 
entirely possible to have separate antennas for them and then combine 
them with the UHF antenna.  Digital TV is much better than analog in 
this regard.  With analog, you had to be very careful to avoid ghosts.  
Digital, on the other hand, tends to ignore them.

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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 24 17:19:27 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:19:27 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120624171927.GA22024@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 07:49:39AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote:
> I'm thinking the next gadget I would like to play with is an antenna
> to pick up some of digital signals in Toronto. Anyone have any good
> experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?

I have 4-bay Channel Master 4221HD, bought from <saveandreplay.com>.
No problem.
-- 
William
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From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 24 18:47:16 2012
From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:47:16 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <20120624171927.GA22024-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com> <20120624171927.GA22024@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <4FE760B4.1010309@sobac.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 07:49:39AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote:

> I'm thinking the next gadget I would like to play with is an
> antenna to pick up some of digital signals in Toronto. Anyone have
> any good experiences with certain antennas or ones to avoid?

I'm not understanding something. Aren't the digital broadcasts today
using the same frequencies as the analogue broadcasts of yesteryear?
If so, why aren't the old style antennas (rabbit ears, UHF loops,
Yagis) sufficient to capture today's digital signals?

- --Bob (I Am Not An Electrical Engineer)
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability

iEYEARECAAYFAk/nYLMACgkQuRKJsNLM5eovXwCggTbJsFkGKRxDlWI5dC56jXYv
uLsAn0qBU0W50C8+CwvzJXcnTUJN49z9
=pFev
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 24 19:07:39 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:07:39 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <4FE760B4.1010309-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com> <20120624171927.GA22024@node1.opengeometry.net> <4FE760B4.1010309@sobac.com>
Message-ID: <4FE7657B.3080601@rogers.com>

Bob Jonkman wrote:
> I'm not understanding something. Aren't the digital broadcasts today
> using the same frequencies as the analogue broadcasts of yesteryear?
> If so, why aren't the old style antennas (rabbit ears, UHF loops,
> Yagis) sufficient to capture today's digital signals?
Yes and no.  The VHF low channels (2-6) are not very good for digital 
and the upper UHF channels have been re-allocated to the 4G cell 
network, but yes, existing UHF & VHF high antennas will work.  VHF low 
antennas are now useless.  To my knowledge all digital stations in the 
Toronto/Buffalo area are on UHF, except CKVR (Ch 10) and CHCH (Ch 11).
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From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jun 24 19:50:11 2012
From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:50:11 -0400
Subject: HDTV antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <4FE760B4.1010309-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAGc8pF7iGBg_qJSYYppJAjadzudeCaVAbommFzeca0ptX7yutw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120624171927.GA22024@node1.opengeometry.net>
	<4FE760B4.1010309@sobac.com>
Message-ID: <CAPik5MyOjFBuqFhUe-mLE1+aEmYbPbOtW67Ym=Hk1yjfu9jZeg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> <snip the previous>
> I'm not understanding something. Aren't the digital broadcasts today
> using the same frequencies as the analogue broadcasts of yesteryear?
> If so, why aren't the old style antennas (rabbit ears, UHF loops,
> Yagis) sufficient to capture today's digital signals?
>

Here's a link with pretty good information. Basically the airwaves are
getting pretty polluted. VHF bands are being licensed out to Mobile and
other communications as the Over The Air TV market  is becoming more
minimal.

Remember the old household roof top TV towers we used to see. The ones with
all the different length rods.  You used to point them in one direction and
hope for the best, just fishing for one signal or other. As the technology,
servos etc got better and cheaper you could then remotely physically orient
the antenna for best reception.

With UHF the shorter waves don't bleed as much interference and station
signals can be multiplexed and demuxed with more dexterity. The downside is
the shorter waves don't travel as far, or as well, as the article explains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_high_frequency




> - --Bob (I Am Not An Electrical Engineer)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
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> uLsAn0qBU0W50C8+CwvzJXcnTUJN49z9
> =pFev
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 03:04:31 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 23:04:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: interesting hackable device?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil6YcJQf7p7rWlutxiDZG4YsI6XNtwEn_CRPINC-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.00.1005221406330.21368@redclaw.mimosa.com> <AANLkTil6YcJQf7p7rWlutxiDZG4YsI6XNtwEn_CRPINC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206242249010.27086@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
| Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 09:47:19 -0400

| Here is a link to the first readily acquirable ARM-based laptop that I've seen:
| http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39391
| 
| The huge oddity is that it comes with Wince; that seems likely to be
| remarkably unuseful, as there aren't terribly many apps deployed
| there.  It's not terribly powerful, with just a 266MHz CPU, which
| seems slower than what's being deployed on phones these days.
| 
| It is entirely possible that this will be wiped from interest by
| devices that followup the Eken M001.  (Which is the one that Hugh
| referenced, which *is* capable of hosting Debian and a cut-down
| Ubuntu.)

Well, the device was mostly wiped from interest.  But the tablets still
aren't hosting debian or Ubuntu that well or frequently.

My local Shoppers Drug Mart has one of these on a shelf in lonely
splendor ($149.99):

<http://sylvaniacomputers.com/product.php?id_product=45>

It too is odd.  Sylvania 7" Wireless Smartbook WEC7.

- "Sylvania" brand name.  I don't think that old brand means anything
  any longer: they license it freely and widely.

- 7" screen (800 x 490)

- Via 8650 CPU (ARM 9, 2D graphics)

- OS: Windows Embeded Compact 7

- 512M RAM

- 2G flash

- "Please note that this product is not a computer. It is a wireless
  Mobile Internet Device with a Windows? Embedded Operating
  System."

From shinoj-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 09:49:58 2012
From: shinoj-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Shinoj VG)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:19:58 +0530
Subject: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
In-Reply-To: <201206211304.59123.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <201206211304.59123.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <BAY147-W335AD5845C28F035EBE0A1D6E10@phx.gbl>




Try doing a packet capture using tcpdump on linode and see if you notice any difference between the handshake happening for port80 and custom server when you try to connect from arduino.

Regards,
Shinoj.


> From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Subject: [TLUG]: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:04:57 -0400
> 
> We are having a lot of problems debugging a TCP/IP connect problem between my 
> associate's Arduino and my Linode server app.    The gist of the problem is 
> described here:
> 
> http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino
> 
> It would appear that the chip used to handle the TCP/IP stack on the Arduino 
> thinks that the socket connection it establishes (as a client) has not 
> succeeded and it times out.    However, on the Linode side we observe that 
> the socket connection has succeeded (ie. been accepted) because we get our 
> child process spawned.   Furthermore if we use the Linux C client we never 
> observe a client socket timeout from my associates node.
> 
> The server code is listed in the link above, and uses a traditional accept 
> connection -> fork child handler approach.   The child process immediately 
> closes the duplicated parent listener socket.   The parent process 
> immediately closes the duplicated accepted socket file descriptor.
> 
> From my travels in Google land it appears that there is a 3 way hand shake 
> involving SYN and ACK TCP/IP packets which are exchanged to consumate a 
> socket connection.    I'm guessing these are the messages that the Arduino 
> Wiznet w5100 chip is missing.   I certainly don't know how to control this 
> level from my high level C library.
> 
> Interestingly if the Arduino is instructed to connect to the port 80 on my 
> Linode it succeeds in that connect almost 100% of the time whereas the 
> connections to my custom server fails more than 90% of the time. 
> 
> I'd love to hear some thoughts on how we might go about debugging this 
> problem.    If you know of any Arduino developers out there,  we'd love to 
> have more eyeballs on this problem.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> 
> bob
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
 		 	   		  
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 12:18:57 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:18:57 -0400
Subject: RBS seem to have had major technology issues
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+7iGX9s0EyPxTmpUDFA2y0v-FW+gSweJrqjo619BO9cqw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Wonder if any other bank have had such an extensive outage, apparently
they have been down for at least 4 full day.  Would be nice to know
what really happened.  All I can find is this article

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/25/rbs_natwest_what_went_wrong/

Not detailed enough on the sequence of event though unfortunately.

Regards

William
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 13:04:56 2012
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:04:56 +1000 (EST)
Subject: RBS seem to have had major technology issues
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+7iGX9s0EyPxTmpUDFA2y0v-FW+gSweJrqjo619BO9cqw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+7iGX9s0EyPxTmpUDFA2y0v-FW+gSweJrqjo619BO9cqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206252252140.1996@castor.opentrend.net>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, William Muriithi wrote:

> Wonder if any other bank have had such an extensive outage, apparently

Other banks have certainly had serious outages in recent years.  One of 
the Big Five banks (RBC?) had a serious outage a few years ago which left 
people briefly unpaid.  Similarly, a couple of Australia's "Big Four" 
banks have had brief outages in recent months (IIRC).

Banks used to be bastions of highly available redundant systems.  I 
wonder if times are changing.  If a bank is too big to be allowed to fail 
then perhaps it is also too big to be allowed to have an outage :)

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org		Linux counter ID #16440
IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode)
Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com
Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/)
Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world
"One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December 1250)

From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 13:36:56 2012
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:36:56 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Interrupted UNIX FAQ
In-Reply-To: <CAFNqd5VG1T3qya8+tFHaJ=TgdxNp6yEU83aA7BvZ426rJr3Zzw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAFNqd5VG1T3qya8+tFHaJ=TgdxNp6yEU83aA7BvZ426rJr3Zzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206252335010.27046@proxima.opentrend.net>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Christopher Browne wrote:

> http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/interrupted.html
>
> The tcsh question won't make much sense to other than those of us that:
> a) Remember what Tenex stands for, or
> b) Run something with a tcsh preference (e.g. - BSD)

Hahah - I haven't thought about rehash in years :)

I was a dedicated tcsh user until soon after I arrived in Canada in 2003. 
I found that migrating prompted me to throw off several old habits, 
including tcsh :)  I've been a basher ever since.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org		Linux counter ID #16440
IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode)
Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com
Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/)
Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 13:39:30 2012
From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:39:30 -0400
Subject: RBS seem to have had major technology issues
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206252252140.1996-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+7iGX9s0EyPxTmpUDFA2y0v-FW+gSweJrqjo619BO9cqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206252252140.1996@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <CADK3HHKf+wpUsi5-dxXkoECzJAUBJQiUpoUpuBykYm8fO7d60A@mail.gmail.com>

Well high availability as they sell it is a myth. It is extremely
difficult to test all the possible scenarios.

It's not surprising that the odd bank goes down every once in a while.

Dave Cramer


On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Robert Brockway
<robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, William Muriithi wrote:
>
>> Wonder if any other bank have had such an extensive outage, apparently
>
>
> Other banks have certainly had serious outages in recent years. ?One of the
> Big Five banks (RBC?) had a serious outage a few years ago which left people
> briefly unpaid. ?Similarly, a couple of Australia's "Big Four" banks have
> had brief outages in recent months (IIRC).
>
> Banks used to be bastions of highly available redundant systems. ?I wonder
> if times are changing. ?If a bank is too big to be allowed to fail then
> perhaps it is also too big to be allowed to have an outage :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rob
>
> --
> Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org ? ? ? ? Linux counter ID #16440
> IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode)
> Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com
> Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/)
> Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world
> "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature
> and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December
> 1250)
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 13:44:16 2012
From: ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org (Ian Garmaise)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:44:16 -0400
Subject: RBS seem to have had major technology issues
In-Reply-To: <CADK3HHKf+wpUsi5-dxXkoECzJAUBJQiUpoUpuBykYm8fO7d60A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+7iGX9s0EyPxTmpUDFA2y0v-FW+gSweJrqjo619BO9cqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1206252252140.1996@castor.opentrend.net>
	<CADK3HHKf+wpUsi5-dxXkoECzJAUBJQiUpoUpuBykYm8fO7d60A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALWEx6URiK1u+J_PbHR3c2jydx4uZZu3q9_yEbL3JCL3Nay9mQ@mail.gmail.com>

>From the Guardian - confessions of an IT salesman

http://bit.ly/Mv3kgD

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Dave Cramer <davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org>wrote:

> Well high availability as they sell it is a myth. It is extremely
> difficult to test all the possible scenarios.
>
> It's not surprising that the odd bank goes down every once in a while.
>
> Dave Cramer
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Robert Brockway
> <robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, William Muriithi wrote:
> >
> >> Wonder if any other bank have had such an extensive outage, apparently
> >
> >
> > Other banks have certainly had serious outages in recent years.  One of
> the
> > Big Five banks (RBC?) had a serious outage a few years ago which left
> people
> > briefly unpaid.  Similarly, a couple of Australia's "Big Four" banks have
> > had brief outages in recent months (IIRC).
> >
> > Banks used to be bastions of highly available redundant systems.  I
> wonder
> > if times are changing.  If a bank is too big to be allowed to fail then
> > perhaps it is also too big to be allowed to have an outage :)
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > --
> > Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org         Linux counter ID #16440
> > IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode)
> > Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com
> > Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/)
> > Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world
> > "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by
> nature
> > and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December
> > 1250)
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
=====
Ian Garmaise
Consultant
Phorix Solutions Group Inc.
ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org
Skype: iantor
Toronto: 416.432.2251
NYC: 917.512.9535

http://www.PhorixSol.com
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 14:07:06 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:07:06 -0400
Subject: RBS seem to have had major technology issues
In-Reply-To: <CALWEx6URiK1u+J_PbHR3c2jydx4uZZu3q9_yEbL3JCL3Nay9mQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+7iGX9s0EyPxTmpUDFA2y0v-FW+gSweJrqjo619BO9cqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1206252252140.1996@castor.opentrend.net>
	<CADK3HHKf+wpUsi5-dxXkoECzJAUBJQiUpoUpuBykYm8fO7d60A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALWEx6URiK1u+J_PbHR3c2jydx4uZZu3q9_yEbL3JCL3Nay9mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+6kS7ELnqva+niYfZ+kzKM9obcW5xsJrzOLenLUHJR8FA@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 June 2012 09:44, Ian Garmaise <ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> From the Guardian - confessions of an IT salesman
>
> http://bit.ly/Mv3kgD
>
>
Actually that looks like a better story behind what happened to RBC.
It look like they were able to identify and roll back RC petty
quickly, but they seem to have know one local with the no how to bring
the rest of the systems back to sanity.  Basically they seem to have
thinned their tech group too much that nobody seem to know the system
very well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18577109

One RBS banker put it like this: "it was the management of the
after-effects of the software failure that caused us the real
difficulties, rather than the software failure itself".

As I understand it, one reason why RBS has not given much detailed
information about why its services have been so badly disrupted is
that so much of the operational responsibility for IT is outsourced -
so there is a sensitive issue of where to attribute blame.


William
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Dave Cramer <davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Well high availability as they sell it is a myth. It is extremely
>> difficult to test all the possible scenarios.
>>
>> It's not surprising that the odd bank goes down every once in a while.
>>
>> Dave Cramer
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Robert Brockway
>> <robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, William Muriithi wrote:
>> >
>> >> Wonder if any other bank have had such an extensive outage, apparently
>> >
>> >
>> > Other banks have certainly had serious outages in recent years. ?One of
>> > the
>> > Big Five banks (RBC?) had a serious outage a few years ago which left
>> > people
>> > briefly unpaid. ?Similarly, a couple of Australia's "Big Four" banks
>> > have
>> > had brief outages in recent months (IIRC).
>> >
>> > Banks used to be bastions of highly available redundant systems. ?I
>> > wonder
>> > if times are changing. ?If a bank is too big to be allowed to fail then
>> > perhaps it is also too big to be allowed to have an outage :)
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Rob
>> >
>> > --
>> > Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org ? ? ? ? Linux counter ID #16440
>> > IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode)
>> > Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com
>> > Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/)
>> > Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world
>> > "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by
>> > nature
>> > and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December
>> > 1250)
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>
>
>
> --
> =====
> Ian Garmaise
> Consultant
> Phorix Solutions Group Inc.
> ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org
> Skype: iantor
> Toronto: 416.432.2251
> NYC: 917.512.9535
>
> http://www.PhorixSol.com
>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 15:38:42 2012
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:38:42 -0400
Subject: Video Card for Sale
Message-ID: <20120625153842.GA28808@yam.witteman.ca>

I have a Linux-friendly video card for sale:

EVGA GeForce GTS 450 1024MB GDDR5

http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_557_559&item_id=039212

I bought it when I needed two DVI outputs - I don't need that anymore,
so I'm hoping it goes to a good home.

$50 or best offer - Toronto Downtown or East End.
-- 

yours,

William

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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Mon Jun 25 20:05:17 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 16:05:17 -0400
Subject: Video Card for Sale
In-Reply-To: <20120625153842.GA28808-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20120625153842.GA28808@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <4FE8C47D.9030100@ve3syb.ca>

On 12-06-25 11:38 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> I have a Linux-friendly video card for sale:
>
> EVGA GeForce GTS 450 1024MB GDDR5
[snip]
> $50 or best offer - Toronto Downtown or East End.

wow... someone is going to get a nice deal. It's half the price of the other 
video card I got for my current machine. Unfortunately, my power supply 
rating is less than the 400W minimum required for that card or I would be 
interested.

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 26 01:27:45 2012
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:27:45 +1000 (EST)
Subject: RBS seem to have had major technology issues
In-Reply-To: <CALWEx6URiK1u+J_PbHR3c2jydx4uZZu3q9_yEbL3JCL3Nay9mQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+7iGX9s0EyPxTmpUDFA2y0v-FW+gSweJrqjo619BO9cqw@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206252252140.1996@castor.opentrend.net> <CADK3HHKf+wpUsi5-dxXkoECzJAUBJQiUpoUpuBykYm8fO7d60A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALWEx6URiK1u+J_PbHR3c2jydx4uZZu3q9_yEbL3JCL3Nay9mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261116350.30462@castor.opentrend.net>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Ian Garmaise wrote:

> From the Guardian - confessions of an IT salesman
>
> http://bit.ly/Mv3kgD

Hey that is a great article.  It mirrors many of my experiences and covers 
the reasons well, I think.

I've long been very cautious about recommending data encryption as most 
organisations (even large ones) don't seem to have the processes in place 
to deal wtih it properly, as the author notes.  Cryptography has exploded 
on to the scene and very few people have studied it formally.

I've written a lot about DR, etc, and you'll notice that I always 
emphasise simplicity and making as few assumptions as possible about 
the nature of the failure.

Cheers,

Rob

> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Dave Cramer <davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org>wrote:
>
>> Well high availability as they sell it is a myth. It is extremely
>> difficult to test all the possible scenarios.
>>
>> It's not surprising that the odd bank goes down every once in a while.
>>
>> Dave Cramer
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Robert Brockway
>> <robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, William Muriithi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wonder if any other bank have had such an extensive outage, apparently
>>>
>>>
>>> Other banks have certainly had serious outages in recent years.  One of
>> the
>>> Big Five banks (RBC?) had a serious outage a few years ago which left
>> people
>>> briefly unpaid.  Similarly, a couple of Australia's "Big Four" banks have
>>> had brief outages in recent months (IIRC).
>>>
>>> Banks used to be bastions of highly available redundant systems.  I
>> wonder
>>> if times are changing.  If a bank is too big to be allowed to fail then
>>> perhaps it is also too big to be allowed to have an outage :)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> --
>>> Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org         Linux counter ID #16440
>>> IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode)
>>> Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com
>>> Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/)
>>> Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world
>>> "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by
>> nature
>>> and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December
>>> 1250)
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org		Linux counter ID #16440
IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode)
Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com
Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/)
Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world
"One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December 1250)

From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 26 01:33:34 2012
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:33:34 +1000 (EST)
Subject: RBS seem to have had major technology issues
In-Reply-To: <CADK3HHKf+wpUsi5-dxXkoECzJAUBJQiUpoUpuBykYm8fO7d60A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+7iGX9s0EyPxTmpUDFA2y0v-FW+gSweJrqjo619BO9cqw@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206252252140.1996@castor.opentrend.net> <CADK3HHKf+wpUsi5-dxXkoECzJAUBJQiUpoUpuBykYm8fO7d60A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261128180.30462@castor.opentrend.net>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Dave Cramer wrote:

> Well high availability as they sell it is a myth. It is extremely
> difficult to test all the possible scenarios.

The thing is HA isn't just about systems, it is also about processes. 
Banks used to have very good processes and while this won't ever prevent 
outages it did make them quite unusual.  The emperical data suggests to me 
that bank system failure rates, while still very low, are increasing. 
This is troubling to me since an outage of a large bank could have very 
widespread knock-on effects.

Cheers,

Rob

> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Robert Brockway
> <robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, William Muriithi wrote:
>>
>>> Wonder if any other bank have had such an extensive outage, apparently
>>
>>
>> Other banks have certainly had serious outages in recent years. ?One of the
>> Big Five banks (RBC?) had a serious outage a few years ago which left people
>> briefly unpaid. ?Similarly, a couple of Australia's "Big Four" banks have
>> had brief outages in recent months (IIRC).
>>
>> Banks used to be bastions of highly available redundant systems. ?I wonder
>> if times are changing. ?If a bank is too big to be allowed to fail then
>> perhaps it is also too big to be allowed to have an outage :)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> --
>> Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org ? ? ? ? Linux counter ID #16440
>> IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode)
>> Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com
>> Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/)
>> Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world
>> "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature
>> and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December
>> 1250)
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

-- 
Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org		Linux counter ID #16440
IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode)
Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com
Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/)
Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world
"One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December 1250)

From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 26 03:17:10 2012
From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:17:10 -0400
Subject: Linux Mint 9 LXDE on powerpc iMac G5 all in one computer
Message-ID: <CAAu3GP3DW-P_D4X1EthWNhTB+DgxaLkkVhihgqrzksxRr30wbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Linux Mint 9 LXDE on powerpc iMac G5 all in one computer

The iMac G5 system:
PowerPC PPC970FX, altivec supported (1800.00MHz)
Debian GNU/Linux 6.05
20 inch display

http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/6.0.5/powerpc/iso-cd/debian-6.0.5-powerpc-businesscard.iso

Burned ISO to blank CD.
Inserted business card CD and held down the "C" key immediately after
turning on the computer

at the boot prompt I typed:
expert64 url=mintppc.org

I had to add my user account to the Sudoer's list:

su
echo 'username ALL=(ALL) ALL' >> /etc/sudoers

In Terminal I setup Gufw as follows:

sudo su
# obtain server's IP address
SERVERIP=`hostname ??all?ip?addresses | cut ??fields 1 ??delimiter " "`

# disable firewall
sudo ufw disable

# reset all firewall rules
sudo ufw reset

# set default rules: deny all incoming traffic, allow all outgoing traffic
sudo ufw default deny incoming
sudo ufw default allow outgoing

# open port for SSH
sudo ufw allow ssh

# open port for Webmin
sudo ufw allow webmin

# open ports for Samba file sharing
sudo ufw allow from 10.0.0.0/8 to $SERVERIP app Samba
sudo ufw allow to 10.0.0.0/8 from $SERVERIP app Samba

# open ports for Transmission?Daemon
sudo ufw allow 9091
sudo ufw allow 20500:20599/tcp
sudo ufw allow 20500:20599/udp

# open port for MySQL
# open ports for Lighttpd
sudo ufw allow proto tcp from 10.0.0.0/8 to any port 3306
# sudo ufw allow ?Lighttpd Full?

# open port for network time protocol (ntpd)
sudo ufw allow ntp

# enable firewall
sudo ufw enable

# list all firewall rules
sudo ufw status verbose

Configured Iceweasel to not store browsing history

In Iceweasel click tools >Add-ons > search for FlashVideoReplacer
Install the add-on then restart Iceweasel

Click FlashVideoReplacer icon (top right corner)
Change preferred method to standalone
Check mark Launch player automatically >Close
Goto youtube and play a video
The video will play in gnome media player automatically

Installed Iceweasel add-on, DownloadHelper 4.9.9.  It dowloads MP4 but
failed to convert MP4 to MP3.

Installed Iceweasel add-on, Audio Thief Online Video to MP3 Converter.  It
converts and downloads with blazing speed and fair quality.

I tried and failed to image this Linux Mint OS on an iMac G5 all in one
powerpc.

Copycat X was able to clone the entire hard disk on my hackintosh, a HP
Compaq dc5000 SFF running Kalyway Tiger OS X 10.4.10 available here:
http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/3825389/Kalyway_10.4.10_(IntelSSE3___V1.1_AMD_amp_SSE2_Patch_fixes)

Therefore deployment of Linux Mint 9 LXDE onto a powerpc iMac G5 requires:
1.  An Apple computer or a hackintosh PC running OS X with Copycat X
installed
2.  A hardisk with Linux Mint 9 LXDE powerpc installed on top of Debian
6.05.  I am using SATA. It may be possible to clone IDE to SATA
3.  Customer's or replacement SATA hard disk.

The system came with only 256 DDR1 RAM. I added another stick of 256 for a
total of 512.

Various imaging software could NOT handle the partition scheme. Here is the
output from the terminal command:

su
cat /proc/partitions

8 0 156290904 sda
8 1 31 sda1
8 2 977 sda2
8 3 154826172 sda3
8 4 1462610 sda4
8 5 56 sda5

Later, I will post links to pics and videos of this beautiful computer!



-- 
http://drpcdr.ca
http://jobcircle.ca
416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 26 16:11:55 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 12:11:55 -0400
Subject: Bar code generator for Linux system
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+5Jxe+fQryh=Q-GjO=BrNWfrxdsAg_ZTEFwcNZyCtYF7A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Curious, any one here have worked with bar code generator on Linux
system?  I have done a quick search and there seem to be a good number
of them.  It looks like Zint is the best choice but then it looks like
its no longer maintained.

http://www.adams1.com/unix.html

Just want to help a friend get going instead of changing back to
Windows due to this task alone.  She is not technical so I am looking
for something a little user friendly. Hoping someone has gone down
this route and would save me from having to install and play around
with each of them.

Thanks in advance,

William
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 26 16:53:31 2012
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 12:53:31 -0400
Subject: Bar code generator for Linux system
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+5Jxe+fQryh=Q-GjO=BrNWfrxdsAg_ZTEFwcNZyCtYF7A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+5Jxe+fQryh=Q-GjO=BrNWfrxdsAg_ZTEFwcNZyCtYF7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5WVNtEL3wi=vTUTW-yeTR4Of0vn49reo+V5YrDGTuNbfA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 12:11 PM, William Muriithi
<william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Curious, any one here have worked with bar code generator on Linux
> system? ?I have done a quick search and there seem to be a good number
> of them. ?It looks like Zint is the best choice but then it looks like
> its no longer maintained.

The thing I have used when I wanted to use barcodes is the labels
application, GLabels.

http://www.glabels.org/

It supports several forms of barcodes, notably NOT including QR codes,
the "cool new thing."

GLabels tends to be about generating labels, business cards, and such
like; that's a somewhat different part of the problem than generating
barcodes, in effect, having barcodes is just *part* of the problem,
and most of what it's about are other aspects of working with
documents that could include barcodes.

There's a "KDE" variation on this, http://www.kbarcode.net/

It also points to some things that just do barcodes:
http://www.gnu.org/software/barcode/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdf417encode
http://www.tec-it.com/linux  (note that this is bait'n'switch-ware; if
you need a "properly licensed" version, that costs quite a bit...
<http://www.tec-it.com/en/order/prices/PriceList.aspx#TBCX>).
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 26 17:22:58 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 13:22:58 -0400
Subject: Bar code generator for Linux system
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+5Jxe+fQryh=Q-GjO=BrNWfrxdsAg_ZTEFwcNZyCtYF7A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+5Jxe+fQryh=Q-GjO=BrNWfrxdsAg_ZTEFwcNZyCtYF7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120626172258.GA15619@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 12:11:55PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Curious, any one here have worked with bar code generator on Linux
> system?  I have done a quick search and there seem to be a good number
> of them.  It looks like Zint is the best choice but then it looks like
> its no longer maintained.
> 
> http://www.adams1.com/unix.html
> 
> Just want to help a friend get going instead of changing back to
> Windows due to this task alone.  She is not technical so I am looking
> for something a little user friendly. Hoping someone has gone down
> this route and would save me from having to install and play around
> with each of them.

I'd recommend to first try <http://www.gnu.org/software/barcode>.  I'm
not sure if there are GUI frontend.
-- 
William
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jun 26 18:58:14 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:58:14 -0400
Subject: Bar code generator for Linux system
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+5Jxe+fQryh=Q-GjO=BrNWfrxdsAg_ZTEFwcNZyCtYF7A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+5Jxe+fQryh=Q-GjO=BrNWfrxdsAg_ZTEFwcNZyCtYF7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120626185814.GQ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 12:11:55PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
> Curious, any one here have worked with bar code generator on Linux
> system?  I have done a quick search and there seem to be a good number
> of them.  It looks like Zint is the best choice but then it looks like
> its no longer maintained.
> 
> http://www.adams1.com/unix.html
> 
> Just want to help a friend get going instead of changing back to
> Windows due to this task alone.  She is not technical so I am looking
> for something a little user friendly. Hoping someone has gone down
> this route and would save me from having to install and play around
> with each of them.
> 
> Thanks in advance,

python-qrtools - high level library for reading and generating QR codes

barcode - Utility and library for barcode generation (and kbarcode as
an optional frontend)

php-image-barcode - Barcode generation

libdmtx-utils - Utilities for reading and writing Data Matrix 2D barcodes

libgd-barcode-perl - Perl module to create barcode images (GD::Barcode)

And many others I am sure.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 27 14:35:16 2012
From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 10:35:16 -0400
Subject: canadian vps hosting experiences
Message-ID: <CAP30j14u5BrUur6s5cpfBsY74vBXTFrL=p9OwaL-ZXX65shZtA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

Can anyone recommend a good Canadian VPS host?  The machines must be
on Canadian soil.  Bad experiences are also welcomed so that I can
avoid those companies.

Thanks
-Ben
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Walton <bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

Take the risk of thinking for yourself. ?Much more happiness,
truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 27 17:47:08 2012
From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:47:08 -0400
Subject: canadian vps hosting experiences
In-Reply-To: <CAP30j14u5BrUur6s5cpfBsY74vBXTFrL=p9OwaL-ZXX65shZtA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAP30j14u5BrUur6s5cpfBsY74vBXTFrL=p9OwaL-ZXX65shZtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEB471C.4040406@gmail.com>

On 12-06-27 10:35 AM, Ben Walton wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good Canadian VPS host?  The machines must be
> on Canadian soil.  Bad experiences are also welcomed so that I can
> avoid those companies.

I was recently researching this,

Cartika.ca - Seem pretty awesome, haven't tried them. Cheap for limited
single-core systems, expensive for moderately powerful systems.  no
ability to import/export VMs, require a ticket to do snapshots and other
advanced features.  They're very helpful when you use their chat.
Cloudnorth.ca - Their contact page was down, so I didn't bother looking
further.  Still seems to be down (a week later), shame I can't contact
them to report it.
vpsville.ca - I used these guys for a small instance.  Quick and easy,
but memory limits are hard.  no virtual memory.  no hassle to shut down
your instance and leave.  I like them, but that memory thing limits
their usefulness.
Openvz.ca - Reputedly offer cheap slices on somewhat overtaxed servers.
Telus - didn't return my phonecalls.  They only seem equipped to deal
with medium business and up.
iWeb  - powerful systems for cheap, but their support is disappointing
to me...  I can't *not* recommend them, but I'm not thrilled with them.
 They're probably the cheapest option for a powerful VPS.


Any additional input on these would be *much* appreciated.

-Mike


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From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 27 18:42:31 2012
From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:42:31 -0400
Subject: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-W335AD5845C28F035EBE0A1D6E10-MsuGFMq8XAE@public.gmane.org>
References: <201206211304.59123.icanprogram@295.ca> <BAY147-W335AD5845C28F035EBE0A1D6E10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <201206271442.33287.icanprogram@295.ca>

Great suggestion.    I've managed to get this done now.   The results are 
posted at:

http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino/connectproblem.html

We ran 3 tests all from same network node:

i) Arduino -> Linode:8000
ii) Arduino -> Linode:80 (exactly same code as i) with only port number 
switched)
iii) Linux stub -> Linode:8000

In all cases the packet sequence and timing seems to be virtually identical.

The Linux stub test always succeeds.   The Arduino -> Linode:80 always 
succeeds.    The Arduino->Linode:8000 almost never succeeds and appears to 
timeout in two distinct ways:

a) no TCP/IP packets make their way to the Linode at all
b) correct sequence of TCP/IP packets appears to be exchanged but Arduino 
times out anyway

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

bob



On Monday 25 June 2012 05:49 am, Shinoj VG wrote:
> Try doing a packet capture using tcpdump on linode and see if you notice
> any difference between the handshake happening for port80 and custom server
> when you try to connect from arduino.
>
> Regards,
> Shinoj.
>
> > From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org
> > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> > Subject: [TLUG]: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
> > Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:04:57 -0400
> >
> > We are having a lot of problems debugging a TCP/IP connect problem
> > between my associate's Arduino and my Linode server app.    The gist of
> > the problem is described here:
> >
> > http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino
> >
> > It would appear that the chip used to handle the TCP/IP stack on the
> > Arduino thinks that the socket connection it establishes (as a client)
> > has not succeeded and it times out.    However, on the Linode side we
> > observe that the socket connection has succeeded (ie. been accepted)
> > because we get our child process spawned.   Furthermore if we use the
> > Linux C client we never observe a client socket timeout from my
> > associates node.
> >
> > The server code is listed in the link above, and uses a traditional
> > accept connection -> fork child handler approach.   The child process
> > immediately closes the duplicated parent listener socket.   The parent
> > process immediately closes the duplicated accepted socket file
> > descriptor.
> >
> > From my travels in Google land it appears that there is a 3 way hand
> > shake involving SYN and ACK TCP/IP packets which are exchanged to
> > consumate a socket connection.    I'm guessing these are the messages
> > that the Arduino Wiznet w5100 chip is missing.   I certainly don't know
> > how to control this level from my high level C library.
> >
> > Interestingly if the Arduino is instructed to connect to the port 80 on
> > my Linode it succeeds in that connect almost 100% of the time whereas the
> > connections to my custom server fails more than 90% of the time.
> >
> > I'd love to hear some thoughts on how we might go about debugging this
> > problem.    If you know of any Arduino developers out there,  we'd love
> > to have more eyeballs on this problem.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your help.
> >
> > bob
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 27 19:00:57 2012
From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:00:57 -0400
Subject: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
In-Reply-To: <201206271442.33287.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <201206211304.59123.icanprogram@295.ca> <BAY147-W335AD5845C28F035EBE0A1D6E10@phx.gbl> <201206271442.33287.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <4FEB5869.4050006@rogers.com>

On 27/06/12 2:42 PM, bob 295 wrote:
>
> a) no TCP/IP packets make their way to the Linode at all
> b) correct sequence of TCP/IP packets appears to be exchanged but Arduino
> times out anyway
>
> Any suggestions?

Is there any firewall running on the Arduino?
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From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 27 19:01:16 2012
From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:01:16 -0400
Subject: canadian vps hosting experiences
In-Reply-To: <4FEB471C.4040406-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAP30j14u5BrUur6s5cpfBsY74vBXTFrL=p9OwaL-ZXX65shZtA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FEB471C.4040406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP30j15L0eYSNgf7pF+VJZs+eB14nxS6n5hxTUSnc+=NBJZWzA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Mike, I've passed your "less than glowing" recommendation along
as that info is just as helpful as a good reference.

Thanks
-Ben
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Walton <bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

Take the risk of thinking for yourself. ?Much more happiness,
truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jun 27 19:29:49 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:29:49 -0400
Subject: Bar code generator for Linux system
In-Reply-To: <20120626185814.GQ32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAE9rU+5Jxe+fQryh=Q-GjO=BrNWfrxdsAg_ZTEFwcNZyCtYF7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120626185814.GQ32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+6Loy0TP8mDTArHBk6S9qpb4YEW6QMesEc7VTwmgLFVJA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks guys

Ended up preferring Christopher suggestions of going with glabel. Very well
gone application that I even doubt there is anything equivalent to it on
the Windows world.

And it actually use gnu barcode through the API.  I found that neat. Anyway
thanks again

Regards

William
On Jun 26, 2012 2:58 PM, "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>
wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 12:11:55PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
> > Curious, any one here have worked with bar code generator on Linux
> > system?  I have done a quick search and there seem to be a good number
> > of them.  It looks like Zint is the best choice but then it looks like
> > its no longer maintained.
> >
> > http://www.adams1.com/unix.html
> >
> > Just want to help a friend get going instead of changing back to
> > Windows due to this task alone.  She is not technical so I am looking
> > for something a little user friendly. Hoping someone has gone down
> > this route and would save me from having to install and play around
> > with each of them.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
>
> python-qrtools - high level library for reading and generating QR codes
>
> barcode - Utility and library for barcode generation (and kbarcode as
> an optional frontend)
>
> php-image-barcode - Barcode generation
>
> libdmtx-utils - Utilities for reading and writing Data Matrix 2D barcodes
>
> libgd-barcode-perl - Perl module to create barcode images (GD::Barcode)
>
> And many others I am sure.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From shinoj-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 05:40:27 2012
From: shinoj-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Shinoj VG)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:10:27 +0530
Subject: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
In-Reply-To: <201206271442.33287.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <201206211304.59123.icanprogram@295.ca>
 <BAY147-W335AD5845C28F035EBE0A1D6E10@phx.gbl>,<201206271442.33287.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <BAY147-W6341895C03E59A0EE8D6DBD6E60@phx.gbl>



Hi,

When the connection fails, please do a netstat -an | grep 8000 and report back on the status of connection as seen from linode end. Is there something similar you can do to find the connection status on Arduino? If yes, this will be helpful in debugging. My guess at this point is that this is something to do with the client side rather than the server.

Regards,
Shinoj.

> From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:42:31 -0400
> 
> Great suggestion.    I've managed to get this done now.   The results are 
> posted at:
> 
> http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino/connectproblem.html
> 
> We ran 3 tests all from same network node:
> 
> i) Arduino -> Linode:8000
> ii) Arduino -> Linode:80 (exactly same code as i) with only port number 
> switched)
> iii) Linux stub -> Linode:8000
> 
> In all cases the packet sequence and timing seems to be virtually identical.
> 
> The Linux stub test always succeeds.   The Arduino -> Linode:80 always 
> succeeds.    The Arduino->Linode:8000 almost never succeeds and appears to 
> timeout in two distinct ways:
> 
> a) no TCP/IP packets make their way to the Linode at all
> b) correct sequence of TCP/IP packets appears to be exchanged but Arduino 
> times out anyway
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> bob
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday 25 June 2012 05:49 am, Shinoj VG wrote:
> > Try doing a packet capture using tcpdump on linode and see if you notice
> > any difference between the handshake happening for port80 and custom server
> > when you try to connect from arduino.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Shinoj.
> >
> > > From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org
> > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> > > Subject: [TLUG]: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
> > > Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:04:57 -0400
> > >
> > > We are having a lot of problems debugging a TCP/IP connect problem
> > > between my associate's Arduino and my Linode server app.    The gist of
> > > the problem is described here:
> > >
> > > http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino
> > >
> > > It would appear that the chip used to handle the TCP/IP stack on the
> > > Arduino thinks that the socket connection it establishes (as a client)
> > > has not succeeded and it times out.    However, on the Linode side we
> > > observe that the socket connection has succeeded (ie. been accepted)
> > > because we get our child process spawned.   Furthermore if we use the
> > > Linux C client we never observe a client socket timeout from my
> > > associates node.
> > >
> > > The server code is listed in the link above, and uses a traditional
> > > accept connection -> fork child handler approach.   The child process
> > > immediately closes the duplicated parent listener socket.   The parent
> > > process immediately closes the duplicated accepted socket file
> > > descriptor.
> > >
> > > From my travels in Google land it appears that there is a 3 way hand
> > > shake involving SYN and ACK TCP/IP packets which are exchanged to
> > > consumate a socket connection.    I'm guessing these are the messages
> > > that the Arduino Wiznet w5100 chip is missing.   I certainly don't know
> > > how to control this level from my high level C library.
> > >
> > > Interestingly if the Arduino is instructed to connect to the port 80 on
> > > my Linode it succeeds in that connect almost 100% of the time whereas the
> > > connections to my custom server fails more than 90% of the time.
> > >
> > > I'd love to hear some thoughts on how we might go about debugging this
> > > problem.    If you know of any Arduino developers out there,  we'd love
> > > to have more eyeballs on this problem.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for your help.
> > >
> > > bob
> > > --
> > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
 		 	   		  
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From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 13:30:09 2012
From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:30:09 -0400
Subject: canadian vps hosting experiences
In-Reply-To: <CAP30j15L0eYSNgf7pF+VJZs+eB14nxS6n5hxTUSnc+=NBJZWzA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAP30j14u5BrUur6s5cpfBsY74vBXTFrL=p9OwaL-ZXX65shZtA@mail.gmail.com> <4FEB471C.4040406@gmail.com> <CAP30j15L0eYSNgf7pF+VJZs+eB14nxS6n5hxTUSnc+=NBJZWzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEC5C61.1010500@gmail.com>

On 12-06-27 3:01 PM, Ben Walton wrote:
> Thanks Mike, I've passed your "less than glowing" recommendation along
> as that info is just as helpful as a good reference.

I hope I don't sound too negative.  I was surprised at the lack of
options in Canada.  There seems to be a market gap.

I'd try Cartika for my next project, unless they needed a big machine
and didn't have a budget, then I'd still do iWeb.

-Mike

--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 13:47:38 2012
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:47:38 -0400
Subject: canadian vps hosting experiences
In-Reply-To: <29736_1340890238_q5SDUbVb032177_4FEC5C61.1010500-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAP30j14u5BrUur6s5cpfBsY74vBXTFrL=p9OwaL-ZXX65shZtA@mail.gmail.com> <4FEB471C.4040406@gmail.com> <CAP30j15L0eYSNgf7pF+VJZs+eB14nxS6n5hxTUSnc+=NBJZWzA@mail.gmail.com> <29736_1340890238_q5SDUbVb032177_4FEC5C61.1010500@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEC607A.9070007@utoronto.ca>

On 12-06-28 09:30 AM, Mike Kallies wrote:
> On 12-06-27 3:01 PM, Ben Walton wrote:
>> Thanks Mike, I've passed your "less than glowing" recommendation along
>> as that info is just as helpful as a good reference.
> 
> I hope I don't sound too negative.  I was surprised at the lack of
> options in Canada.  There seems to be a market gap.
> 
> I'd try Cartika for my next project, unless they needed a big machine
> and didn't have a budget, then I'd still do iWeb.

We're a market of at most 35 million. There aren't too many affordable
datacentres in Canada for smaller companies. iWeb are an exception -
they own their datacentres and are competing on a global scale.

That said, at a previous VPS/dedicated hosting company for which I
worked, I would have pretty much moved anywhere in Canada to seek out a
good facility, and to establish hardware vendor relations to get them a
Canadian presence. I still would I liked working with them so much.

Jamon
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 15:21:05 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
Message-ID: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

FYI...? Seagate 3TB $139.99 at canadacomputers.com.

-- 

William

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From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 15:31:27 2012
From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:31:27 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOE5A34FEqDeB/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>

This is the drive in question -
http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=15_1086_210_212&item_id=042242
How reliable are these 3TB drives? Anyone here have any experience with them?

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:21 AM, William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> FYI...? Seagate 3TB $139.99 at canadacomputers.com.
>
> --
>
> William
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists



-- 
Sadiq S
O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 15:35:32 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:35:32 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEC79C4.2000708@rogers.com>

Sadiq Saif wrote:
> This is the drive in question -
> http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=15_1086_210_212&item_id=042242
> How reliable are these 3TB drives? Anyone here have any experience with them?

Hmmm... 64 MB cache.  That's more than twice the size of my first hard 
drive, a Seagate ST238R.

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 15:48:51 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:48:51 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:31:27AM -0400, Sadiq Saif wrote:
> This is the drive in question -
> http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=15_1086_210_212&item_id=042242
> How reliable are these 3TB drives? Anyone here have any experience with them?

I won't touch a seagate these days.

Firmware disaster after firmware disaster.

I wouldn't put my data on it even if it was free.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 15:56:30 2012
From: ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org (Ian Garmaise)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:56:30 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <20120628154851.GR32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <CALWEx6Vc4Ta4S0+TKfjbM9S4BPhmShSo1WnSuVSLF6iRfxgf-w@mail.gmail.com>

In upgrading my Lenovo T60, I originally bought two 760 Gb Seagate 2.5"
drives from Canada computers.
Before opening the package, I then read about all the firmware disasters on
the web.
Returned them for two Western Digital Scorpio Blue 500 Gb drives (one for
internal use, one for backup in an enclosure)
(the 750's won't fit in the notebook slot).  No problems, migration
technique from Lenovo worked as advertised.

Ian


On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Lennart Sorensen <
lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:31:27AM -0400, Sadiq Saif wrote:
> > This is the drive in question -
> >
> http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=15_1086_210_212&item_id=042242
> > How reliable are these 3TB drives? Anyone here have any experience with
> them?
>
> I won't touch a seagate these days.
>
> Firmware disaster after firmware disaster.
>
> I wouldn't put my data on it even if it was free.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
=====
Ian Garmaise
Consultant
Phorix Solutions Group Inc.
ian.g-m+eCFz0Wf2kS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org
Skype: iantor
Toronto: 416.432.2251
NYC: 917.512.9535

http://www.PhorixSol.com
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 16:02:27 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:02:27 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <CALWEx6Vc4Ta4S0+TKfjbM9S4BPhmShSo1WnSuVSLF6iRfxgf-w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CALWEx6Vc4Ta4S0+TKfjbM9S4BPhmShSo1WnSuVSLF6iRfxgf-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120628160227.GS32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:56:30AM -0400, Ian Garmaise wrote:
> In upgrading my Lenovo T60, I originally bought two 760 Gb Seagate 2.5"
> drives from Canada computers.
> Before opening the package, I then read about all the firmware disasters on
> the web.
> Returned them for two Western Digital Scorpio Blue 500 Gb drives (one for
> internal use, one for backup in an enclosure)
> (the 750's won't fit in the notebook slot).  No problems, migration
> technique from Lenovo worked as advertised.

My wife's lenovo came with a 500GB seagate.  It was 7 months old when
it tore two of the 4 heads off against the platter.  Replaced with a
750GB WD.  I didn't even bother lenovo about warrenty on the drive.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 16:03:35 2012
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:03:35 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <20120628154851.GR32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com> <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca>

> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:31:27AM -0400, Sadiq Saif wrote:
> This is the drive in question -

What's interesting to me is they have 500GB Seagate Barracuda's on clearance 
sale at $50. A pair of those would double my hard drive space.

I've generally preferred Seagate drives. They have never given me any 
problems. But that may have been before SATA drives. I don't think my 
current SATA drives are from Seagate but I would have to check who made them.

-- 
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick


--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 16:13:34 2012
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:13:34 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <20120628160227.GS32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com> <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <CALWEx6Vc4Ta4S0+TKfjbM9S4BPhmShSo1WnSuVSLF6iRfxgf-w@mail.gmail.com> <20120628160227.GS32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4FEC82AE.1010909@rogers.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> My wife's lenovo came with a 500GB seagate.  It was 7 months old when
> it tore two of the 4 heads off against the platter.  Replaced with a
> 750GB WD.  I didn't even bother lenovo about warrenty on the drive.

A friend's Lenovo came with, IIRC, a Seagate drive.  She recently had a 
disk crash, less than a year after buying the computer.  She bought a 
larger WD drive to replace it.  She didn't want to send the computer in 
for warranty repair, as she's a psychologist and has confidential 
patient info on that computer.

My own Lenovo ThinkPad has a WD drive.

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 16:14:38 2012
From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:14:38 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <4FEC8057.5080003-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <CAOW5bykczuKaej9c80MH7SzGGvLmW+kC3MSFZc+qpB1o1u_g_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Kevin Cozens <kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:31:27AM -0400, Sadiq Saif wrote:
>> This is the drive in question -
>
>
> What's interesting to me is they have 500GB Seagate Barracuda's on clearance
> sale at $50. A pair of those would double my hard drive space.
>
> I've generally preferred Seagate drives. They have never given me any
> problems. But that may have been before SATA drives. I don't think my
> current SATA drives are from Seagate but I would have to check who made
> them.
>

I'm duty-bound to weigh in at this point. My external RAID-1 with two
Seagate 500 Barracudas failed recently. RAID box is fine, both drives
failed at the same time. One drive was all errors, to the point of
falling off the bus, and the other was a spinning brick.

Spinning brick did not respond to firmware monitor (RS-232 TTL
interface) access, so I had a company in BC (plug: the nice folks at
http://www.onepcbsolution.com) send me replacement drive electronics
with my transplanted PROM. $50 instead of close to $1k for a
professional recovery (last I looked). Thankfully I was finally able
to recover data from spinning brick.

Needles [sic] to say I'm not going anywhere near Seagate for some
time. No matter how good a deal. Lennart might be a bit quick with his
reviews sometimes ( ;-) but I'm right with him on this one!

Cheers,
Mike
--
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 16:50:06 2012
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:50:06 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <CAOW5bykczuKaej9c80MH7SzGGvLmW+kC3MSFZc+qpB1o1u_g_Q-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca>
	<CAOW5bykczuKaej9c80MH7SzGGvLmW+kC3MSFZc+qpB1o1u_g_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rU+5U5GuHwgucqpvuVYx0U9L_s=EsYbXiHHDpgdvNzMVTxg@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,
> I'm duty-bound to weigh in at this point. My external RAID-1 with two
> Seagate 500 Barracudas failed recently. RAID box is fine, both drives
> failed at the same time. One drive was all errors, to the point of
> falling off the bus, and the other was a spinning brick.

I have seen this happen twice in my career.  RAID 1 failing and I believe
this shouldn't be the case. Problem is most vendor set up RAID systems from
the same hard disk vendors and the same manufacturing batch.

I am looking at you Dell. They sell RAID 10 systems with hard disk whose
serial number are so close you can guess the serial number of the last
drive after seeing the first drive.

Of course they end up failing at the same time to my surprise :(

William


>
> Spinning brick did not respond to firmware monitor (RS-232 TTL
> interface) access, so I had a company in BC (plug: the nice folks at
> http://www.onepcbsolution.com) send me replacement drive electronics
> with my transplanted PROM. $50 instead of close to $1k for a
> professional recovery (last I looked). Thankfully I was finally able
> to recover data from spinning brick.
>
> Needles [sic] to say I'm not going anywhere near Seagate for some
> time. No matter how good a deal. Lennart might be a bit quick with his
> reviews sometimes ( ;-) but I'm right with him on this one!
>
> Cheers,
> Mike
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 16:56:24 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:56:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <20120628154851.GR32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com> <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206281224110.32062@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>

| I won't touch a seagate these days.
| 
| Firmware disaster after firmware disaster.
| 
| I wouldn't put my data on it even if it was free.

I think that all disk drive manufacturers have problem drives.  Some
are related to just a particular drive, sometimes a drive design.
Then there is customer service/support.

So all we know is superstition: based on too small a sample size.
That being said, I superstitiously avoid Seagate.  Not boycott, avoid.

I had a Seagate drive go last week.  It was a 7200.11 drive, one that
originally came with a ticking time-bomb in the firmware.  But I fixed
that when they announced it (badly) a few years ago.  So that isn't
what hit me.

(That bug did hit my son.  He had a 7200.11 drive that came in a
Gateway computer.  I checked the serial number with Seagate's tool,
and it said all was well.  Lies.  So he did end up with have a locked
up drive.  Unfortunately, Seagate said that this was Gateway's problem
but Gateway would only replace, not repair the drive.  I built and
sent him a TTL-level serial cable and he did the delecate operation to
re-vivify the disk.  He then copied the drive to a replacement and
won't use that drive again.  Horrible.  I count this too as marks
against Seagate.)

My 7200.11's failure mode was that it would go through this sequence
when powered up: spin up; click 11 times (i.e. seek hard to
recalibrate the head position); spin down.  The consensus on the web
is that this is a head failure -- not to be fixed by firmware or even
PCB replacement.  So I sent it in the Seagate and expect a replacement
in a week or so.

I have to pay shipping one way (just under $9 (including tax) via some
Canada Post service, with $100 insurance and tracking).  I could have
used their premium option: US$10 for them to ship you a replacement
and a prepaid mailing label with which to return the drive.  Normally
that would be a better choice.  One reason: this way you get a box
suitable for shipping a drive before you have to ship it.

Contrast that with Lenovo.  I had a problem with my new Think Pad
Android Tablet.  They shipped me a shipping box (I had to sign for it
at the door!) with prepaid label to return it.  No cost to me.
Because they made a mistake the first time (new machine was US and had
half the flash), the procedure was repeated.

I have to say that the Seagate support person was pleasant and
experienced.  He was in Oklahoma City and had been working for Seagate
for about 15 years (including time at Imprimis, which Seagate took
over).

I bought the 7200.11 in 2009, just before the warranty on Seagate OEM
drives was to be reduced from 5 years to 3.  We always wondered if
that was a sign of Seagate's confidence in its own drives.  Mind you,
WD's similar drives only had 3 years warranty at that time.  A 3 year
warranty would have been up by the time the drive failed.

I did have trouble with an old (10 years old?) WD drive last week too.
A 40G IDE drive.  I was able to get all the contents with ddrescue.  I
only noticed the problem when I was doing a straight dd of the whole
drive that failed 3/4 of the way through (repeatable).
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 17:52:04 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 13:52:04 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <4FEC82AE.1010909-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <CALWEx6Vc4Ta4S0+TKfjbM9S4BPhmShSo1WnSuVSLF6iRfxgf-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628160227.GS32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FEC82AE.1010909@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20120628175204.GT32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:13:34PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> A friend's Lenovo came with, IIRC, a Seagate drive.  She recently
> had a disk crash, less than a year after buying the computer.  She
> bought a larger WD drive to replace it.  She didn't want to send the
> computer in for warranty repair, as she's a psychologist and has
> confidential patient info on that computer.
> 
> My own Lenovo ThinkPad has a WD drive.

So does my thinkpad.  The ideapad seems to often use seagate drives.

I found a lot of discussions on drive recovery methods and it sure sounds
like the seagate momentum line of laptop drives are rather flimsy.
Some cases the head had gotten stuck under the head park ramp and
otherwise had no actual damage (but needed a new head installed to
recover the data).

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 17:55:17 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 13:55:17 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <4FEC8057.5080003-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <20120628175517.GU32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:03:35PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> What's interesting to me is they have 500GB Seagate Barracuda's on
> clearance sale at $50. A pair of those would double my hard drive
> space.
> 
> I've generally preferred Seagate drives. They have never given me
> any problems. But that may have been before SATA drives. I don't
> think my current SATA drives are from Seagate but I would have to
> check who made them.

Seagate's first sata drives didn't work with SiL controllers because
seagate misunderstood part of the sata spec.  Everyone else got it right.
SiL happened to use an optimization in their controller that relied on
the drive working as per the spec, and a specific command would fail
on the seagates because they had limited the allowed values for that
command in a way not permitted by the sata standard.

Then came the 1TB and 1.5TB seagates that would brick themselves due to
a firmware bug that took many month to even get seagate to admit existed.
Seagate tried to blame disk controllers, OSs, etc.

So yes seagate used to be great reliable drives.  These days I have no
interest in trying anything they make.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 17:58:03 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 13:58:03 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <CAE9rU+5U5GuHwgucqpvuVYx0U9L_s=EsYbXiHHDpgdvNzMVTxg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca>
 <CAOW5bykczuKaej9c80MH7SzGGvLmW+kC3MSFZc+qpB1o1u_g_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+5U5GuHwgucqpvuVYx0U9L_s=EsYbXiHHDpgdvNzMVTxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120628175803.GV32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:50:06PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
> I have seen this happen twice in my career.  RAID 1 failing and I believe
> this shouldn't be the case. Problem is most vendor set up RAID systems from
> the same hard disk vendors and the same manufacturing batch.
> 
> I am looking at you Dell. They sell RAID 10 systems with hard disk whose
> serial number are so close you can guess the serial number of the last
> drive after seeing the first drive.
> 
> Of course they end up failing at the same time to my surprise :(

I just built a raid1 using a pair of WD 2TB RE4 drives.  I bought them
a week apart and the serial numbers are about 500 apart. :)

I have not personally ever had drives bought together fail anywhere near
the same time, but I do consider it a valid concern.  Most of the time
the failure of a drive seems pretty random, but sometimes there are
manufacturing caused issues in which case drives from the same batch
very well could fail together.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 18:04:42 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:04:42 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206281224110.32062-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206281224110.32062@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20120628180442.GW32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:56:24PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> I think that all disk drive manufacturers have problem drives.  Some
> are related to just a particular drive, sometimes a drive design.
> Then there is customer service/support.
> 
> So all we know is superstition: based on too small a sample size.
> That being said, I superstitiously avoid Seagate.  Not boycott, avoid.
> 
> I had a Seagate drive go last week.  It was a 7200.11 drive, one that
> originally came with a ticking time-bomb in the firmware.  But I fixed
> that when they announced it (badly) a few years ago.  So that isn't
> what hit me.
> 
> (That bug did hit my son.  He had a 7200.11 drive that came in a
> Gateway computer.  I checked the serial number with Seagate's tool,
> and it said all was well.  Lies.  So he did end up with have a locked
> up drive.  Unfortunately, Seagate said that this was Gateway's problem
> but Gateway would only replace, not repair the drive.  I built and
> sent him a TTL-level serial cable and he did the delecate operation to
> re-vivify the disk.  He then copied the drive to a replacement and
> won't use that drive again.  Horrible.  I count this too as marks
> against Seagate.)
>
> My 7200.11's failure mode was that it would go through this sequence
> when powered up: spin up; click 11 times (i.e. seek hard to
> recalibrate the head position); spin down.  The consensus on the web
> is that this is a head failure -- not to be fixed by firmware or even
> PCB replacement.  So I sent it in the Seagate and expect a replacement
> in a week or so.

My wife's laptop drive clicked (almost sounded like a beep).  I read about
it and determined the spindle was unable to spin up and probably stuck.
So since it was backed up and not a concern, I opened it, and the
head was stuck against the platter with the two heads facing up bent.
Once the head was removed from the platter it was able to spin again,
but those heads will never read a disk again.

> I have to pay shipping one way (just under $9 (including tax) via some
> Canada Post service, with $100 insurance and tracking).  I could have
> used their premium option: US$10 for them to ship you a replacement
> and a prepaid mailing label with which to return the drive.  Normally
> that would be a better choice.  One reason: this way you get a box
> suitable for shipping a drive before you have to ship it.
> 
> Contrast that with Lenovo.  I had a problem with my new Think Pad
> Android Tablet.  They shipped me a shipping box (I had to sign for it
> at the door!) with prepaid label to return it.  No cost to me.
> Because they made a mistake the first time (new machine was US and had
> half the flash), the procedure was repeated.
> 
> I have to say that the Seagate support person was pleasant and
> experienced.  He was in Oklahoma City and had been working for Seagate
> for about 15 years (including time at Imprimis, which Seagate took
> over).
> 
> I bought the 7200.11 in 2009, just before the warranty on Seagate OEM
> drives was to be reduced from 5 years to 3.  We always wondered if
> that was a sign of Seagate's confidence in its own drives.  Mind you,
> WD's similar drives only had 3 years warranty at that time.  A 3 year
> warranty would have been up by the time the drive failed.

I think a lot of that was just money.  Once one of them did it, they
all did it.

> I did have trouble with an old (10 years old?) WD drive last week too.
> A 40G IDE drive.  I was able to get all the contents with ddrescue.  I
> only noticed the problem when I was doing a straight dd of the whole
> drive that failed 3/4 of the way through (repeatable).

I have had WD drives fail, but always with intermiddent issues first
that gave me warning that it was failing, and often cooling the drive
would let me read all the data.  They don't usually seem to just turn
into bricks.

I once had an 80GB maxtor turn into a brick 4 hours after it came out
of the original packaging.  Barely started copying data to it.  One of
those lovely diamond plus drives where most of the 40 and 8GB drives
failed spontaneously within a couple of years use.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 19:43:04 2012
From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:43:04 -0400
Subject: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
In-Reply-To: <BAY147-W6341895C03E59A0EE8D6DBD6E60-MsuGFMq8XAE@public.gmane.org>
References: <201206211304.59123.icanprogram@295.ca> <201206271442.33287.icanprogram@295.ca> <BAY147-W6341895C03E59A0EE8D6DBD6E60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <201206281543.05743.icanprogram@295.ca>

That command was very helpful.   It indicated that others were attempting to 
connect to this port (I have a posting on the Arduino forum).    When we get 
a successful Arduino connect we see the ESTABLISHED state on the netstat 
output.

We have added 2 more tests to the matrix.

i) we put a loop around the connect to count the number of timeout/retries
ii) we brought down Apache on the Linode and put our custom daemon up on port 
80

On the port 80 test (ii above) the Arduino was able to connect each and every 
time without timeouts.   ie. we got exactly the same behavior with our custom 
daemon as we did with Apache.

On the retry test (i above) we got a very strange but reproducible pattern.

after cold boot - success on 3rd retry
after 1st reset - success on 4th retry
after 2nd reset - success on 5th retry
etc.

(all this is documented at 
http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino/connectproblem.html)

Huh???

I'm completely baffled.    Our testing matrix is pointing to a very obtuse bug 
in the Arduino library in which the connect behavior changes if the port 
number moves from 80 -> 8000.    Our Linux stub test verifies that the Linode 
port 8000 is open and accessable from the network node where the Arduino 
resides.

Any ideas to add to our test matrix?    The posting to the Arduino forum has 
thus far failed to produce even a single response even though I've updated 
the thread continuously with each test result.

Thanks in advance for your help.

bob


On Thursday 28 June 2012 01:40 am, Shinoj VG wrote:
> Hi,
>
> When the connection fails, please do a netstat -an | grep 8000 and report
> back on the status of connection as seen from linode end. Is there
> something similar you can do to find the connection status on Arduino? If
> yes, this will be helpful in debugging. My guess at this point is that this
> is something to do with the client side rather than the server.
>
> Regards,
> Shinoj.
>
> > From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org
> > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
> > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:42:31 -0400
> >
> > Great suggestion.    I've managed to get this done now.   The results are
> > posted at:
> >
> > http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino/connectproblem.html
> >
> > We ran 3 tests all from same network node:
> >
> > i) Arduino -> Linode:8000
> > ii) Arduino -> Linode:80 (exactly same code as i) with only port number
> > switched)
> > iii) Linux stub -> Linode:8000
> >
> > In all cases the packet sequence and timing seems to be virtually
> > identical.
> >
> > The Linux stub test always succeeds.   The Arduino -> Linode:80 always
> > succeeds.    The Arduino->Linode:8000 almost never succeeds and appears
> > to timeout in two distinct ways:
> >
> > a) no TCP/IP packets make their way to the Linode at all
> > b) correct sequence of TCP/IP packets appears to be exchanged but Arduino
> > times out anyway
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > bob
> >
> > On Monday 25 June 2012 05:49 am, Shinoj VG wrote:
> > > Try doing a packet capture using tcpdump on linode and see if you
> > > notice any difference between the handshake happening for port80 and
> > > custom server when you try to connect from arduino.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Shinoj.
> > >
> > > > From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org
> > > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> > > > Subject: [TLUG]: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
> > > > Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:04:57 -0400
> > > >
> > > > We are having a lot of problems debugging a TCP/IP connect problem
> > > > between my associate's Arduino and my Linode server app.    The gist
> > > > of the problem is described here:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino
> > > >
> > > > It would appear that the chip used to handle the TCP/IP stack on the
> > > > Arduino thinks that the socket connection it establishes (as a
> > > > client) has not succeeded and it times out.    However, on the Linode
> > > > side we observe that the socket connection has succeeded (ie. been
> > > > accepted) because we get our child process spawned.   Furthermore if
> > > > we use the Linux C client we never observe a client socket timeout
> > > > from my associates node.
> > > >
> > > > The server code is listed in the link above, and uses a traditional
> > > > accept connection -> fork child handler approach.   The child process
> > > > immediately closes the duplicated parent listener socket.   The
> > > > parent process immediately closes the duplicated accepted socket file
> > > > descriptor.
> > > >
> > > > From my travels in Google land it appears that there is a 3 way hand
> > > > shake involving SYN and ACK TCP/IP packets which are exchanged to
> > > > consumate a socket connection.    I'm guessing these are the messages
> > > > that the Arduino Wiznet w5100 chip is missing.   I certainly don't
> > > > know how to control this level from my high level C library.
> > > >
> > > > Interestingly if the Arduino is instructed to connect to the port 80
> > > > on my Linode it succeeds in that connect almost 100% of the time
> > > > whereas the connections to my custom server fails more than 90% of
> > > > the time.
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to hear some thoughts on how we might go about debugging
> > > > this problem.    If you know of any Arduino developers out there, 
> > > > we'd love to have more eyeballs on this problem.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for your help.
> > > >
> > > > bob
> > > > --
> > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> >
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 19:43:00 2012
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:43:00 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <20120628175803.GV32729-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com> <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca> <CAOW5bykczuKaej9c80MH7SzGGvLmW+kC3MSFZc+qpB1o1u_g_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAE9rU+5U5GuHwgucqpvuVYx0U9L_s=EsYbXiHHDpgdvNzMVTxg@mail.gmail.com> <20120628175803.GV32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20120628194300.GA12217@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 01:58:03PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> I just built a raid1 using a pair of WD 2TB RE4 drives.  I bought them
> a week apart and the serial numbers are about 500 apart. :)

WD RE series are top of the line.
But, I hear bad things about WD Green series.
-- 
William
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 19:54:16 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:54:16 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <20120628194300.GA12217-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca>
 <CAOW5bykczuKaej9c80MH7SzGGvLmW+kC3MSFZc+qpB1o1u_g_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+5U5GuHwgucqpvuVYx0U9L_s=EsYbXiHHDpgdvNzMVTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628175803.GV32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <20120628194300.GA12217@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <20120628195416.GX32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 03:43:00PM -0400, William Park wrote:
> WD RE series are top of the line.
> But, I hear bad things about WD Green series.

I have only used blue, black and enterprise.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 21:22:34 2012
From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: canadian vps hosting experiences
In-Reply-To: <CAP30j14u5BrUur6s5cpfBsY74vBXTFrL=p9OwaL-ZXX65shZtA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <CAP30j14u5BrUur6s5cpfBsY74vBXTFrL=p9OwaL-ZXX65shZtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340918554.37418.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I had used hostway some years back in my previous employment. My server used to be in Vancouver and my experience with them was really good.


HTH
Equbay



________________________________
 From: Ben Walton <bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org 
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:35:16 AM
Subject: [TLUG]: canadian vps hosting experiences
 
Hi All,

Can anyone recommend a good Canadian VPS host?? The machines must be
on Canadian soil.? Bad experiences are also welcomed so that I can
avoid those companies.

Thanks
-Ben
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Walton <bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

Take the risk of thinking for yourself. ?Much more happiness,
truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org  Thu Jun 28 22:35:41 2012
From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:35:41 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <20120628194300.GA12217-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca>
 <CAOW5bykczuKaej9c80MH7SzGGvLmW+kC3MSFZc+qpB1o1u_g_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+5U5GuHwgucqpvuVYx0U9L_s=EsYbXiHHDpgdvNzMVTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628175803.GV32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <20120628194300.GA12217@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <20120628223541.GA32452@adb.ca>

William Park wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 01:58:03PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> > I just built a raid1 using a pair of WD 2TB RE4 drives.  I bought them
> > a week apart and the serial numbers are about 500 apart. :)
> 
> WD RE series are top of the line.
> But, I hear bad things about WD Green series.

WD Green has a reputation for spinning down early and often and putting
low-watt numbers ahead of all else.  Performance?  Reliability? 
Bunny-loving tree-huggers crave not these things.

I bought a 2TB one before I started hearing horror stories, and after a
year or two it started throwing checksum errors (you get those with some
random filesystem I won't name on a Linux list).  Currently I have a
Seagate ST32000542AS CC34 and a Hitachi HDS723020BLA642 MN6OA580 mirrored
in that box.  Amazingly enough, all three claim *exactly* the same number
of blocks, so I wonder if my paranoia of never having two by the same
maker in the box is actually winning me anything or if they're all OEMed
from the same assembly line.

I expect I'll be trying the WD RE4 Lennart mentions next.

-- 
Anthony de Boer
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 29 01:58:59 2012
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:58:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <20120628223541.GA32452-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com> <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca> <CAOW5bykczuKaej9c80MH7SzGGvLmW+kC3MSFZc+qpB1o1u_g_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+5U5GuHwgucqpvuVYx0U9L_s=EsYbXiHHDpgdvNzMVTxg@mail.gmail.com> <20120628175803.GV32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120628194300.GA12217@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120628223541.GA32452@adb.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206282144340.2260@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Anthony de Boer <adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org>

| I expect I'll be trying the WD RE4 Lennart mentions next.

My understanding is that RE and non-RE are the same EXCEPT for "TLER"
(a trivial firmware difference).

Without TLER, RAID won't work.  A drive will spend so much time
recovering from a simple local error that the controller will declare
the whole drive offline.  That is a big failure.  It generally
requires the array to be rebuilt, possibly taking longer than the
actual MTBF!

That's how they do "market segmentation".  Market segmentation is a
vendor's dream: sell essentially the same product at two different
price points.

If the drive manufacturing industry were not an oligopoly, this price
differentiation would disappear.  In fact, I think Samsung's normal
drives were capable of TLER; that's been fixed by Seagate taking them
over.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From shinoj-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 29 11:13:54 2012
From: shinoj-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Shinoj VG)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 16:43:54 +0530
Subject: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
In-Reply-To: <201206281543.05743.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <201206211304.59123.icanprogram@295.ca>
 <201206271442.33287.icanprogram@295.ca>
 <BAY147-W6341895C03E59A0EE8D6DBD6E60@phx.gbl>,<201206281543.05743.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <BAY147-W43C27DABDFEBFD86972269D6E50@phx.gbl>



Hi,

Try using ethernet2 library, if you are not already using it. 

Src : http://jpmens.net/2009/04/24/arduino-ethernet2-library/

Regards,
Shinoj.



> From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:43:04 -0400
> 
> That command was very helpful.   It indicated that others were attempting to 
> connect to this port (I have a posting on the Arduino forum).    When we get 
> a successful Arduino connect we see the ESTABLISHED state on the netstat 
> output.
> 
> We have added 2 more tests to the matrix.
> 
> i) we put a loop around the connect to count the number of timeout/retries
> ii) we brought down Apache on the Linode and put our custom daemon up on port 
> 80
> 
> On the port 80 test (ii above) the Arduino was able to connect each and every 
> time without timeouts.   ie. we got exactly the same behavior with our custom 
> daemon as we did with Apache.
> 
> On the retry test (i above) we got a very strange but reproducible pattern.
> 
> after cold boot - success on 3rd retry
> after 1st reset - success on 4th retry
> after 2nd reset - success on 5th retry
> etc.
> 
> (all this is documented at 
> http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino/connectproblem.html)
> 
> Huh???
> 
> I'm completely baffled.    Our testing matrix is pointing to a very obtuse bug 
> in the Arduino library in which the connect behavior changes if the port 
> number moves from 80 -> 8000.    Our Linux stub test verifies that the Linode 
> port 8000 is open and accessable from the network node where the Arduino 
> resides.
> 
> Any ideas to add to our test matrix?    The posting to the Arduino forum has 
> thus far failed to produce even a single response even though I've updated 
> the thread continuously with each test result.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> 
> bob
> 
> 
> On Thursday 28 June 2012 01:40 am, Shinoj VG wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > When the connection fails, please do a netstat -an | grep 8000 and report
> > back on the status of connection as seen from linode end. Is there
> > something similar you can do to find the connection status on Arduino? If
> > yes, this will be helpful in debugging. My guess at this point is that this
> > is something to do with the client side rather than the server.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Shinoj.
> >
> > > From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org
> > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
> > > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:42:31 -0400
> > >
> > > Great suggestion.    I've managed to get this done now.   The results are
> > > posted at:
> > >
> > > http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino/connectproblem.html
> > >
> > > We ran 3 tests all from same network node:
> > >
> > > i) Arduino -> Linode:8000
> > > ii) Arduino -> Linode:80 (exactly same code as i) with only port number
> > > switched)
> > > iii) Linux stub -> Linode:8000
> > >
> > > In all cases the packet sequence and timing seems to be virtually
> > > identical.
> > >
> > > The Linux stub test always succeeds.   The Arduino -> Linode:80 always
> > > succeeds.    The Arduino->Linode:8000 almost never succeeds and appears
> > > to timeout in two distinct ways:
> > >
> > > a) no TCP/IP packets make their way to the Linode at all
> > > b) correct sequence of TCP/IP packets appears to be exchanged but Arduino
> > > times out anyway
> > >
> > > Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > bob
> > >
> > > On Monday 25 June 2012 05:49 am, Shinoj VG wrote:
> > > > Try doing a packet capture using tcpdump on linode and see if you
> > > > notice any difference between the handshake happening for port80 and
> > > > custom server when you try to connect from arduino.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Shinoj.
> > > >
> > > > > From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org
> > > > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> > > > > Subject: [TLUG]: help with Arduino TCP/IP connect problem
> > > > > Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:04:57 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > > We are having a lot of problems debugging a TCP/IP connect problem
> > > > > between my associate's Arduino and my Linode server app.    The gist
> > > > > of the problem is described here:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/arduino
> > > > >
> > > > > It would appear that the chip used to handle the TCP/IP stack on the
> > > > > Arduino thinks that the socket connection it establishes (as a
> > > > > client) has not succeeded and it times out.    However, on the Linode
> > > > > side we observe that the socket connection has succeeded (ie. been
> > > > > accepted) because we get our child process spawned.   Furthermore if
> > > > > we use the Linux C client we never observe a client socket timeout
> > > > > from my associates node.
> > > > >
> > > > > The server code is listed in the link above, and uses a traditional
> > > > > accept connection -> fork child handler approach.   The child process
> > > > > immediately closes the duplicated parent listener socket.   The
> > > > > parent process immediately closes the duplicated accepted socket file
> > > > > descriptor.
> > > > >
> > > > > From my travels in Google land it appears that there is a 3 way hand
> > > > > shake involving SYN and ACK TCP/IP packets which are exchanged to
> > > > > consumate a socket connection.    I'm guessing these are the messages
> > > > > that the Arduino Wiznet w5100 chip is missing.   I certainly don't
> > > > > know how to control this level from my high level C library.
> > > > >
> > > > > Interestingly if the Arduino is instructed to connect to the port 80
> > > > > on my Linode it succeeds in that connect almost 100% of the time
> > > > > whereas the connections to my custom server fails more than 90% of
> > > > > the time.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd love to hear some thoughts on how we might go about debugging
> > > > > this problem.    If you know of any Arduino developers out there, 
> > > > > we'd love to have more eyeballs on this problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance for your help.
> > > > >
> > > > > bob
> > > > > --
> > > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> > >
> > > --
> > > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
 		 	   		  
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jun 29 14:11:55 2012
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:11:55 -0400
Subject: 3TB Harddisk sale
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206282144340.2260-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1340896865.1831.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CABSLv-9T7xr2UDgnY2O8Wss=R9Hb8Tn0uhXdRAZ_wO0G+WkF6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628154851.GR32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <4FEC8057.5080003@ve3syb.ca>
 <CAOW5bykczuKaej9c80MH7SzGGvLmW+kC3MSFZc+qpB1o1u_g_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE9rU+5U5GuHwgucqpvuVYx0U9L_s=EsYbXiHHDpgdvNzMVTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120628175803.GV32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <20120628194300.GA12217@node1.opengeometry.net>
 <20120628223541.GA32452@adb.ca>
 <alpine.LRH.2.02.1206282144340.2260@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20120629141155.GY32729@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 09:58:59PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> My understanding is that RE and non-RE are the same EXCEPT for "TLER"
> (a trivial firmware difference).

I don't know if they are the same or not.

The RE4 has a yellow label with 'Enterprise Storage' on it.  The others
obvious have green, blue and black labels.  I would suspect the yellow
is similar (if not the same) to the black.

They look the same physically, and the specs look the
same, but according to benchmarks the RE4 is faster
than a caviar black in some tests, but slower in others.  At least
according to this:
http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Western-Digital-Caviar-Black-and-RE4-2TB-Drives-Review/?page=3

It would seem that while they share the same case and many other
components, they are not the same drive with a TLER setting changed.

Of course the current version of the 2TB caviar black has a 6Gbps SATA
interface, while the current RE4 2TB still uses a 3Gbps interface,
so they are certainly different at the moment.

> Without TLER, RAID won't work.  A drive will spend so much time
> recovering from a simple local error that the controller will declare
> the whole drive offline.  That is a big failure.  It generally
> requires the array to be rebuilt, possibly taking longer than the
> actual MTBF!

Well it will, but you could have drives fall out of the raid when they
ought not to, which can be rather inconvinient.

> That's how they do "market segmentation".  Market segmentation is a
> vendor's dream: sell essentially the same product at two different
> price points.
> 
> If the drive manufacturing industry were not an oligopoly, this price
> differentiation would disappear.  In fact, I think Samsung's normal
> drives were capable of TLER; that's been fixed by Seagate taking them
> over.

WD drives used to be switchable with a utility, but no more.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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