From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 1 21:41:24 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:41:24 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: <4EF4DA34.3060908-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EF4DA34.3060908@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Digimer wrote: > I'd still argue strongly to move your domains to a business that wasn't > a jerk from the start. Godaddy buckled, but they still have the same > thinking and management that allowed them to support SOPA/PIPA in the > first place. I considered several alternatives and finally selected Gandi.net as my new domain registrar. There were cheaper alternatives but Gandi comes highly recommended and the fact they serve as the registrar for the Electronic Frontier Foundation was a deciding factor for me (I trust the EFF to do their homework and choose reputable vendors). To both Godaddy and Gandi's credit the transfer of my domain was smooth and swift. Until January 15th 2012 Gandi has pledged to contribute $1 per inbound transfer to the EFF: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/12/moveyourdomain-protest-internet-blacklist-bills -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 2 02:53:40 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 21:53:40 -0500 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). Message-ID: Happy New Year, I hope 2012 is a better year than 2011 for everyone. This noted Michael Geist has some thoughts about what we as people in the IT field may be facing in 2012 (much of it not good for open source): http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1108345--2012-could-be-busy-year-for-internet-technology-law-and-policy-in-canada So, what to do about this, well there is the GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). Just to note that the next GTALug PAC meeting will be : January 16th 2011, 7:00 PM at my place (near Yonge and Eglinton). This will be discussions about where open source and politics cross paths (ie: some of the issues Machael Geist notes above). Anyone interested in attending please let me know, and I will send the exact address (this is because my living room is ... not huge and I would like to know how many people to expect). Thanks. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 2 17:04:13 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 12:04:13 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: <4EF4DA34.3060908@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Digimer wrote: >> I'd still argue strongly to move your domains to a business that wasn't >> a jerk from the start. Godaddy buckled, but they still have the same >> thinking and management that allowed them to support SOPA/PIPA in the >> first place. > > I considered several alternatives and finally selected Gandi.net as my > new domain registrar. I looked at the gandi.net website and see their head office is outside the USA (Paris, France), which given the current situation I see as a positive. On the negative, I see they have a US office, which again given the current situation I see as a negative. Any other thoughts as to a registrar that ... doesn't have possible US entanglements... Colin McGregor PS: As I type this on gmail I see a small ad on the right hand side for Go Daddy, which given the circumstances is sort-of funny... > There were cheaper alternatives but Gandi comes highly recommended and > the fact they serve as the registrar for the Electronic Frontier > Foundation was a deciding factor for me (I trust the EFF to do their > homework and choose reputable vendors). To both Godaddy and Gandi's > credit the transfer of my domain was smooth and swift. > > Until January 15th 2012 Gandi has pledged to contribute $1 per inbound > transfer to the EFF: > > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/12/moveyourdomain-protest-internet-blacklist-bills > > -- > ? ? // > [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com > [ ?# ?]\/ > OOO > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 3 14:48:58 2012 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 09:48:58 -0500 Subject: Cfengine, puppet and Chef Message-ID: <20120103144858.GA15554@watson-wilson.ca> Greetings and happy New Year. Here is a good article on Cfengine, Puppet and Chef. http://blog.afistfulofservers.net/post/2011/12/30/cfengine-puppet-and-chef-part-1/ -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 3 15:21:01 2012 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:21:01 -0500 Subject: New Tutorial - RHCS + DRBD + KVM; 2-Node HA on EL6 Message-ID: <4F031CDD.5040706@alteeve.com> Hi TLUG, I'd sequestered myself away last May to write a new clustering tutorial. Welp, 'tis done! https://alteeve.com/w/2-Node_Red_Hat_KVM_Cluster_Tutorial This new tutorial assumes no prior knowledge of clustering. It walks you through the entire build process, starting with the OS install and network config clear through to fully testing the completed cluster. It's based on EL6 (RHEL6, CentOS 6, SL6, etc) using DRBD for clustered storage, so no expensive SAN is needed. When done, you will have a fully redundant highly available platform for KVM virtual servers. It covers both Linux and Microsoft guests, live migration, etc. Cheers! -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "omg my singularity battery is dead again. stupid hawking radiation." - epitron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 3 21:26:07 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 16:26:07 -0500 Subject: New Tutorial - RHCS + DRBD + KVM; 2-Node HA on EL6 In-Reply-To: <4F031CDD.5040706-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4F031CDD.5040706@alteeve.com> Message-ID: Kelly Thanks a lot. Really well done and very detailed. Actually, I have not seen a how to kind of documentation that is this detailed, 192 pages long!. The cool thing is should someone need to support the cluster for your employer, he will have a better time. Most people, and I am guilty too leaves very little documentation making life really interesting for anyone who may work on your project after you are done. Curious, I assume you have now deployed KVM widely. Do you have any reservation about it? I found xen really impossible to do without compiling stuff, something I really hate, but the KVM is not yet well received. Know any users of KVM, someone like Amazon? Anyway, thank again William On 3 January 2012 10:21, Digimer wrote: > Hi TLUG, > > ?I'd sequestered myself away last May to write a new clustering > tutorial. Welp, 'tis done! > > https://alteeve.com/w/2-Node_Red_Hat_KVM_Cluster_Tutorial > > ?This new tutorial assumes no prior knowledge of clustering. It walks > you through the entire build process, starting with the OS install and > network config clear through to fully testing the completed cluster. > > ?It's based on EL6 (RHEL6, CentOS 6, SL6, etc) using DRBD for clustered > storage, so no expensive SAN is needed. > > ?When done, you will have a fully redundant highly available platform > for KVM virtual servers. It covers both Linux and Microsoft guests, live > migration, etc. > > Cheers! > > -- > Digimer > E-Mail: ? ? ? ? ? ? ?digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > Freenode handle: ? ? digimer > Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com > Node Assassin: ? ? ? http://nodeassassin.org > "omg my singularity battery is dead again. > stupid hawking radiation." - epitron > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 3 21:37:18 2012 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 16:37:18 -0500 Subject: New Tutorial - RHCS + DRBD + KVM; 2-Node HA on EL6 In-Reply-To: References: <4F031CDD.5040706@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4F03750E.2050402@alteeve.com> On 01/03/2012 04:26 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Kelly > > Thanks a lot. Really well done and very detailed. Actually, I have > not seen a how to kind of documentation that is this detailed, 192 > pages long!. > > The cool thing is should someone need to support the cluster for your > employer, he will have a better time. Most people, and I am guilty > too leaves very little documentation making life really interesting > for anyone who may work on your project after you are done. > > Curious, I assume you have now deployed KVM widely. Do you have any > reservation about it? I found xen really impossible to do without > compiling stuff, something I really hate, but the KVM is not yet well > received. Know any users of KVM, someone like Amazon? > > Anyway, thank again > > William I used to use Xen (in fact, the previous incarnation of the tutorial is EL5 + Xen) and those clusters have been running for quite a while just fine. I never used anything except the stock Xen installs - nothing extra. As for KVM, I've now been using it for about six months to a year and I've had great success with it. The biggest win is that it is a lot easier to support Windows guests in KVM. With Red Hat backing it, it has come a long way in a hurry. I don't know what major hosting providers use, in terms of Xen vs. KVM, but I am sure some big names have both. In short; Both are just fine. It's more a question of your particular use-case. For me, I want Red Hat support so under EL5 that was Xen and now under EL6 it is KVM. -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "omg my singularity battery is dead again. stupid hawking radiation." - epitron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 4 16:00:35 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 08:00:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Tutorial - RHCS + DRBD + KVM; 2-Node HA on EL6 In-Reply-To: References: <4F031CDD.5040706@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1325692835.54659.YahooMailNeo@web113411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> VirtualBox (4.1.8) is still faster than KVM (1.0).? But, one thing that KVM does and VirtualBox doesn't is booting from USB harddisk.? The relevant option is ??? ??? -usbdevice host:xxx.yyy where "xxx" and "yyy" are from ??? ??? lsusb Thanks Kelly.? "High-availability storage" is my next project.? I will soon recycle my current 8-disk RAID5 machine as backup, and build a new machine.? I was thinking of "raid over network", instead of "continual rsync".? Your doc is just the right thing at the right time. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Muriithi > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 4:26:07 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: New Tutorial - RHCS + DRBD + KVM; 2-Node HA on EL6 > > Kelly > > Thanks a lot.? Really well done and very detailed.? Actually, I have > not seen a how to kind of documentation that is this detailed, 192 > pages long!. > > The cool thing is should someone need to support the cluster for your > employer, he will have a better time.? Most people,? and I am guilty > too leaves very little documentation making life really interesting > for anyone who may work on your project after you are done. > > Curious, I assume you have now deployed KVM widely. Do you have any > reservation about it?? I found xen really impossible to do without > compiling stuff, something I really hate, but the KVM is not yet well > received.? Know any users of KVM, someone like Amazon? > > Anyway, thank again > > William > > > > On 3 January 2012 10:21, Digimer wrote: >> Hi TLUG, >> >> ?I'd sequestered myself away last May to write a new clustering >> tutorial. Welp, 'tis done! >> >> https://alteeve.com/w/2-Node_Red_Hat_KVM_Cluster_Tutorial >> >> ?This new tutorial assumes no prior knowledge of clustering. It walks >> you through the entire build process, starting with the OS install and >> network config clear through to fully testing the completed cluster. >> >> ?It's based on EL6 (RHEL6, CentOS 6, SL6, etc) using DRBD for clustered >> storage, so no expensive SAN is needed. >> >> ?When done, you will have a fully redundant highly available platform >> for KVM virtual servers. It covers both Linux and Microsoft guests, live >> migration, etc. >> >> Cheers! >> >> -- >> Digimer >> E-Mail: ? ? ? ? ? ? ?digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org >> Freenode handle: ? ? digimer >> Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com >> Node Assassin: ? ? ? http://nodeassassin.org >> "omg my singularity battery is dead again. >> stupid hawking radiation." - epitron >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From isaac.q.dupont-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 4 17:40:23 2012 From: isaac.q.dupont-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Quinn DuPont) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 17:40:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Invitation to speak at casual Free & Open Source colloquium (University of Toronto) Message-ID: We are looking for speakers for an ongoing, casual (lunchtime) colloquium on Free & Open Source Software, held at the University of Toronto. More information is available here: http://takhteyev.org/courses/11F/foss-brown-bag/ The talks may be technical in nature, but please recognize that the audience is very general; the topic can be somewhat loosely affiliated with FOSS. For more information, please contact me at http://www.iqdupont.com/contact . Even if you do not have a talk to offer, please feel free to attend and join in the discussion! Regards, Quinn DuPont -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 4 18:37:26 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:37:26 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF24CA6.7070509-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4F049C66.1000709@dinamis.com> On 12/21/2011 04:16 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On 12/21/2011 03:57 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:33:27PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >>> Can you give some examples of such routers, please? Do any of them >>> support wireless "N"? I have a friend looking for a router to >>> replace his existing ISP-supplied router that is apparently not >>> flexible enough. I had set up IPCop for him years ago but the PC on >>> which it was running died and he would rather have an "appliance" >>> that doesn't have any moving parts. I figure we can meet his needs >>> and still have something that is based on Linux by using one of >>> these Atheros MIPS24k routers you mentioned. >> >> Well I use a dual band DIR-825 which is a 600MHz MIPS24k with abgn >> support >> (2.4 and 5ghz bands using all types). >> >> There are some cheaper models that are single band only (so bgn). Any recommendations on a router that does NOT have wireless support? My friend is amenable to flashing with OpenWRT but he doesn't want wireless since he already has Apple wireless base stations. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 4 18:44:44 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 13:44:44 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4F049C66.1000709-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <4F049C66.1000709@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4F049E1C.7090809@rogers.com> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Any recommendations on a router that does NOT have wireless support? > My friend is amenable to flashing with OpenWRT but he doesn't want > wireless since he already has Apple wireless base stations. You can generally turn off WiFi on routers, if you don't need it. Given the prices these days, there's not much of a market for routers without WiFi. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 5 00:45:41 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 19:45:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 16:14:21 -0500 | Also rather interesting is the CeroWRT project: | Note that the one | model (Netlink WNDR3700) on which it runs is available for $99 at | FutureShop/BestBuy: WNDR3700-100PAS On the strength of that, I bought a WNDR3700v2 -- the Best Buy Boxing Week(s) price is $79.00, but you have to kick up a fuss or get lucky since they ran out of them online and didn't want to match their online price for an in-store sale. The sale ends very soon -- maybe tomorrow. Tiger Direct is selling refurbs for $69.xx, but they might well be V1 models which don't qualify -- half the flash memory on board (8MiB vs 16MiB). Apparently the V1 has a better antenna. The WNDR3800 is even better -- twice the RAM but similar enough to have the same FCC ID. But it is quite a bit more expensive ($129.97 at Tiger Direct). If you can live with a Broadcom chipset (I cannot), then WNDR4500 has more resources: 128MiB of flash and 128MiB of RAM. Quite expensive ($179.69 from Direct Canada). (Atheros chipsets are better than broadcom chipsets because there is an open source driver. The Broadcom open source driver isn't suitable for routers since it only supports STA mode (if I remember correctly).) As for Cerowrt, I'm not sure what shape the project is in. The latest news on the front page is 3 months old and says that rc7 will slip a few weeks. I think that is was supposed to ship on Novenber 15 but has not yet been shipped. (Just for comparison, remember that I bought an AMD E-350 based nettop for $99, added 4G of RAM for $20, and added 750G hard drive for $59.99 (all exceptional prices, I admit). The result is as small as a wireless router, takes more electrical power, but is way more powerful. Only one ethernet port though.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 5 00:48:14 2012 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:48:14 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4F049C66.1000709-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <4F049C66.1000709@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <2652152.rIo02JEmYh@grouchy.120> Today, most wireless 'routers' are really 'switches' with wireless capability. For examples of switches, look at: http://www.pcvonline.com/ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=24815&24136&manuf=TP- LINK Duncan On January 4, 2012 01:37:26 PM you wrote: > On 12/21/2011 04:16 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > On 12/21/2011 03:57 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:33:27PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > >>> Can you give some examples of such routers, please? Do any of them > >>> support wireless "N"? I have a friend looking for a router to > >>> replace his existing ISP-supplied router that is apparently not > >>> flexible enough. I had set up IPCop for him years ago but the PC on > >>> which it was running died and he would rather have an "appliance" > >>> that doesn't have any moving parts. I figure we can meet his needs > >>> and still have something that is based on Linux by using one of > >>> these Atheros MIPS24k routers you mentioned. > >> > >> Well I use a dual band DIR-825 which is a 600MHz MIPS24k with abgn > >> support > >> (2.4 and 5ghz bands using all types). > >> > >> There are some cheaper models that are single band only (so bgn). > > Any recommendations on a router that does NOT have wireless support? My > friend is amenable to flashing with OpenWRT but he doesn't want wireless > since he already has Apple wireless base stations. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 5 01:36:09 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:36:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <2652152.rIo02JEmYh-sb60JjQlQz7I0729u30ZFQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <4F049C66.1000709@dinamis.com> <2652152.rIo02JEmYh@grouchy.120> Message-ID: | From: Duncan MacGregor | Today, most wireless 'routers' are really 'switches' with wireless capability. | For examples of switches, look at: | | http://www.pcvonline.com/ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=24815&24136&manuf=TP-LINK (Your link got folded; I've fixed that.) A router does a lot more than a switch. It connects networks. Of course it matters which functions Clifford's friend really needs. I'd bet he needs NAPT, certainly not a switch function but standard on home routers. Most home wireless routers' hardware is actually router + switch + access point. Many include USB too. The services provided by software are often quite diverse: firewalls, NAPT, VLANs, VPNs, torrent clients, printer servers, file servers, ... In support of your statement, most "modems" for cable or ADSL these days actually include routers with a single LAN port. Slapping a switch on the LAN side instead of a full router often accomplishes what's needed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 5 02:21:53 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:21:53 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <2652152.rIo02JEmYh-sb60JjQlQz7I0729u30ZFQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <4F049C66.1000709@dinamis.com> <2652152.rIo02JEmYh@grouchy.120> Message-ID: <4F050941.5010806@rogers.com> Duncan MacGregor wrote: > Today, most wireless 'routers' are really 'switches' with wireless capability. > For examples of switches, look at: > > http://www.pcvonline.com/ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=24815&24136&manuf=TP- > LINK Actually, what people buy are routers that include a 4 (actually 6) port switch with WiFi. I have no idea why you posted that link as those items are not what's being discussed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 5 17:07:59 2012 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:07:59 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4F050941.5010806-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <2652152.rIo02JEmYh@grouchy.120> <4F050941.5010806@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1421801.izUCMhW5o8@grouchy.120> On January 4, 2012 09:21:53 PM you wrote: > Duncan MacGregor wrote: > > Today, most wireless 'routers' are really 'switches' with wireless > > capability. For examples of switches, look at: > > > > http://www.pcvonline.com/ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=24815&24136&manuf= > > TP- LINK > > Actually, what people buy are routers that include a 4 (actually 6) port > switch with WiFi. I have no idea why you posted that link as those > items are not what's being discussed. Why? I posted that link in answer to the earlier question: >>Any recommendations on a router that does NOT have wireless support? My >>friend is amenable to flashing with OpenWRT but he doesn't want wireless >>since he already has Apple wireless base stations. And suggested that a search for 'switch' might be more useful than a search for 'wifi router without wifi' Duncan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 5 17:20:27 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:20:27 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <1421801.izUCMhW5o8-sb60JjQlQz7I0729u30ZFQ@public.gmane.org> References: <2652152.rIo02JEmYh@grouchy.120> <4F050941.5010806@rogers.com> <1421801.izUCMhW5o8@grouchy.120> Message-ID: <4F05DBDB.1000305@rogers.com> Duncan MacGregor wrote: > On January 4, 2012 09:21:53 PM you wrote: >> Duncan MacGregor wrote: >>> Today, most wireless 'routers' are really 'switches' with wireless >>> capability. For examples of switches, look at: >>> >>> http://www.pcvonline.com/ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=24815&24136&manuf= >>> TP- LINK >> Actually, what people buy are routers that include a 4 (actually 6) port >> switch with WiFi. I have no idea why you posted that link as those >> items are not what's being discussed. > Why? I posted that link in answer to the earlier question: > >>> Any recommendations on a router that does NOT have wireless support? My >>> friend is amenable to flashing with OpenWRT but he doesn't want wireless >>> since he already has Apple wireless base stations. I believe the orginal question was: > Can you give some examples of such routers, please? Do any of them > support wireless "N"? I have a friend looking for a router to > replace his existing ISP-supplied router that is apparently not > flexible enough. I had set up IPCop for him years ago but the PC on > which it was running died and he would rather have an "appliance" > that doesn't have any moving parts. I figure we can meet his needs > and still have something that is based on Linux by using one of > these Atheros MIPS24k routers you mentioned. Routers, not switches, are generally used to connect to the ISP, as routing function is required. Switches don't provide that. Consumer routers provide router, switch & WiFi all in one box. Also, I don't recall ever seeing a switch with WiFi included, in either consumer or industrial level equipment. > And suggested that a search for 'switch' might be more useful than a search > for 'wifi router without wifi' A switch does not provide the needed function and so not considered. A switch may be added if the router doesn't provide sufficient ports for the number of devices to be connected. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 5 18:32:01 2012 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:32:01 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4F05DBDB.1000305-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <2652152.rIo02JEmYh@grouchy.120> <4F050941.5010806@rogers.com> <1421801.izUCMhW5o8@grouchy.120> <4F05DBDB.1000305@rogers.com> Message-ID: I have one of these: http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=DIR-632 It does routing, switching and Wifi-N. But please, don't buy it. Its really undependable. On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:20 PM, James Knott wrote: > Duncan MacGregor wrote: >> >> On January 4, 2012 09:21:53 PM you wrote: >>> >>> Duncan MacGregor wrote: >>>> >>>> Today, most wireless 'routers' are really 'switches' with wireless >>>> capability. For examples of switches, look at: >>>> >>>> http://www.pcvonline.com/ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=24815&24136&manuf= >>>> TP- LINK >>> >>> Actually, what people buy are routers that include a 4 (actually 6) port >>> switch with WiFi. ?I have no idea why you posted that link as those >>> items are not what's being discussed. >> >> Why? I posted that link in answer to the earlier question: >> >>>> Any recommendations on a router that does NOT have wireless support? My >>>> friend is amenable to flashing with OpenWRT but he doesn't want wireless >>>> since he already has Apple wireless base stations. > > > I believe the orginal question was: > > >> Can you give some examples of such routers, please? Do any of them >> support wireless "N"? I have a friend looking for a router to >> replace his existing ISP-supplied router that is apparently not >> flexible enough. I had set up IPCop for him years ago but the PC on >> which it was running died and he would rather have an "appliance" >> that doesn't have any moving parts. I figure we can meet his needs >> and still have something that is based on Linux by using one of >> these Atheros MIPS24k routers you mentioned. > > > Routers, not switches, are generally used to connect to the ISP, as routing > function is required. ?Switches don't provide that. ?Consumer routers > provide router, switch & WiFi all in one box. ?Also, I don't recall ever > seeing a switch with WiFi included, in either consumer or industrial level > equipment. > >> And suggested that a search for 'switch' might be more useful than a >> search >> for 'wifi router without ?wifi' > > A switch does not provide the needed function and so not considered. ?A > switch may be added if the router doesn't provide sufficient ports for the > number of devices to be connected. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 7 02:37:18 2012 From: gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 21:37:18 -0500 Subject: NASA Launches Open Source Code Website Message-ID: <4F07AFDE.9040406@teksavvy.com> If anyone is interested in space-related software, NASA launched an open source website yesterday. http://code.nasa.gov/ -- Glen Strom gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 7 03:15:30 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 22:15:30 -0500 Subject: Instal script gone terribly wrong (users stung by Bumblebee) Message-ID: <20120107031530.GA13971@waltdnes.org> https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6#diff-1 GIANT BUG... causing /usr to be deleted... so sorry.... issue #123, i# Some light/dark humour. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 8 19:30:58 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 14:30:58 -0500 Subject: TV tuner card to give away... Message-ID: For anyone wanting to dabble with the likes of MythTV I have an Avermedia TV98 PCI TV tuner card I am looking to give away (and could easily bring to this Tuesday's GTALug meeting). The TV98 card is a pretty lousy card on several levels, analog only, CPU intensive, and requires the use of your sound card being just some of the issues. Still, last time I used it, it did work. So, anyone who would like to play with MythTV and can put up with a bit of hassle, well, the price is right... Let me know if you're interested, and we can go from there. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 8 19:39:49 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:39:49 -0500 Subject: TV tuner card to give away... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F09F105.7030401@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > For anyone wanting to dabble with the likes of MythTV I have an > Avermedia TV98 PCI TV tuner card I am looking to give away (and could > easily bring to this Tuesday's GTALug meeting). > > The TV98 card is a pretty lousy card on several levels, analog only, > CPU intensive, and requires the use of your sound card being just some > of the issues. Still, last time I used it, it did work. So, anyone who > would like to play with MythTV and can put up with a bit of hassle, > well, the price is right... > > Let me know if you're interested, and we can go from there. > Are there any analog stations in the GTA? Might make a good paper weight. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 8 19:57:47 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 14:57:47 -0500 Subject: TV tuner card to give away... In-Reply-To: <4F09F105.7030401-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F09F105.7030401@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 2:39 PM, James Knott wrote: > Colin McGregor wrote: >> >> For anyone wanting to dabble with the likes of MythTV I have an >> Avermedia TV98 PCI TV tuner card I am looking to give away (and could >> easily bring to this Tuesday's GTALug meeting). >> >> The TV98 card is a pretty lousy card on several levels, analog only, >> CPU intensive, and requires the use of your sound card being just some >> of the issues. Still, last time I used it, it did work. So, anyone who >> would like to play with MythTV and can put up with a bit of hassle, >> well, the price is right... >> >> Let me know if you're interested, and we can go from there. >> > Are there any analog stations in the GTA? ?Might make a good paper weight. > ?;-) Over the air there is one analog station in Buffalo, a low power channel 15 WBNF-CA (which I can get from near Yonge and Eglinton, with more snow than picture). Analog service is still available on cable (at least for now). Also, if you wanted to say transfer video tapes to digital, this card could do the trick... In other words, this card, while FAR from ideal, isn't quite ready to be a paperweight. Colin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 8 20:39:11 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 20:39:11 +0000 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers Message-ID: I have a DVD's that were recorded from old family video 8 tapes. Is it possible (with Linux software - either free or not) to edit the ripped DVD? The idea being to record another DVD from the edited files. When I google for DVD editing, I can see that there are a few packages that can edit video and export to a DVD. I'm not quite sure if DVD files can be edited (maybe converted first?). If so, what about loss? I'm not looking for detail, only to know if it's possible. A tip on which software package would work might be handy too :). Thanks, John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 8 21:14:30 2012 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:14:30 -0500 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 3:39 PM, wrote: > I have a DVD's that were recorded from old family video 8 tapes. Is it > possible (with Linux software - either free or not) to edit the ripped DVD? > The idea being to record another DVD from the edited files. > > When I google for DVD editing, I can see that there are a few packages > that can edit video and export to a DVD. I'm not quite sure if DVD files > can be edited (maybe converted first?). If so, what about loss? > > I'm not looking for detail, only to know if it's possible. A tip on which > software package would work might be handy too :). > > Thanks, > > John. > I'd think that any nonlinear editor would do the trick. There was a review of kdenlive on LWN recently... beyond that I know nothing of video editing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 8 22:09:16 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 22:09:16 +0000 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I saved the links for all 5 tutorials and reviewed the kdenlive web site. It's clear that it can export to DVD. What I'm not sure about, without installing the package, is whether it's possible to edit the .vob files, titles, etc from a previously made DVD. Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:14:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [TLUG]: All Video Editing Lovers From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 3:39 PM, wrote: I have a DVD's that were recorded from old family video 8 tapes. Is it possible (with Linux software - either free or not) to edit the ripped DVD? The idea being to record another DVD from the edited files. When I google for DVD editing, I can see that there are a few packages that can edit video and export to a DVD. I'm not quite sure if DVD files can be edited (maybe converted first?). If so, what about loss? I'm not looking for detail, only to know if it's possible. A tip on which software package would work might be handy too :). Thanks, John. I'd think that any nonlinear editor would do the trick. There was a review of kdenlive on LWN recently... beyond that I know nothing of video editing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 02:14:08 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 21:14:08 -0500 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's been awhile, but I think you should be able to do what you want with AVIDemux. On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:09 PM, wrote: > I saved the links for all 5 tutorials and reviewed the kdenlive web site. > It's clear that it can export to DVD. What I'm not sure about, without > installing the package, is whether it's possible to edit the .vob files, > titles, etc from a previously made DVD. > > ________________________________ > Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:14:30 -0500 > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: All Video Editing Lovers > From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 3:39 PM, wrote: > > I have a DVD's that were recorded from old family video 8 tapes. Is it > possible (with Linux software - either free or not) to edit the ripped DVD? > The idea being to record another DVD from the edited files. > > When I google for DVD editing, I can see that there are a few packages that > can edit video and export to a DVD. I'm not quite sure if DVD files can be > edited (maybe converted first?). If so, what about loss? > > I'm not looking for detail, only to know if it's possible. A tip on which > software package would work might be handy too :). > > Thanks, > > John. > > > I'd think that any nonlinear editor would do the trick. There was a review > of kdenlive on LWN recently... beyond that I know nothing of video editing. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 00:17:02 2012 From: faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Syed Faisal Akber) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 19:17:02 -0500 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120108191702.10918ngf11bpqrcu@webmail.no-ip.com> There are a number of video editing software available on Linux. Here are just a couple: CinelerraCV Kino Kino is more simplistic but works. CinelerraCV is more advanced. There is a Cinelerra version but the CV version is a fork maintained by the community. http://cinelerra.org/ <== Find CinelerraCV here. Good luck, Faisal Quoting Andrej Marjan : > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 3:39 PM, wrote: > >> I have a DVD's that were recorded from old family video 8 tapes. Is it >> possible (with Linux software - either free or not) to edit the ripped DVD? >> The idea being to record another DVD from the edited files. >> >> When I google for DVD editing, I can see that there are a few packages >> that can edit video and export to a DVD. I'm not quite sure if DVD files >> can be edited (maybe converted first?). If so, what about loss? >> >> I'm not looking for detail, only to know if it's possible. A tip on which >> software package would work might be handy too :). >> >> Thanks, >> >> John. >> > > I'd think that any nonlinear editor would do the trick. There was a review > of kdenlive on LWN recently... beyond that I know nothing of video editing. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 05:41:45 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 00:41:45 -0500 Subject: Unix Unanimous meeting - Wed 11 Jan 2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The next meeting of Unix Unanimous will be held at 6:45 pm on Wednesday 11 January 2012, in room BA 2179 in the Bahen Centre for Information Technology at 40 St. George Street, on the University of Toronto campus. Unix Unanimous is an informal gathering of people interested in Unix and related topics. There are no fees or membership requirements, and the meeting is open to all. Participants typically include Unix professionals, students, and hobbyists. The meeting is always held on the second Wednesday of each month. Special Announcements: A mailing list has been set up for this announcement. If you wish to receive notification via email, go to the web page https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u/ in order to subscribe yourself. A map of the area can be found at http://unixunanimous.org where this message is repeated, and will always contain the correct location and time of the next meeting. _______________________________________________ u-u mailing list u-u-nUbHFpetmNumKAeH2fHhIti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 06:24:29 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 01:24:29 -0500 Subject: TV tuner card to give away... In-Reply-To: References: <4F09F105.7030401@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F0A881D.8060608@ve3syb.ca> On 12-01-08 02:57 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> Are there any analog stations in the GTA? The signals for channels 2 through 70 on Rogers cable are analog. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 08:09:32 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 00:09:32 -0800 Subject: Instal script gone terribly wrong (users stung by Bumblebee) In-Reply-To: <20120107031530.GA13971-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120107031530.GA13971@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: biggest comit-log comment thread ever! Reminds me of when somebody I know wrote a script+ran with "deluser $USER" instead of "deluser $USERNAME"... as root, of course On Jan 6, 2012 7:16 PM, "Walter Dnes" wrote: > https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6#diff-1 > > GIANT BUG... causing /usr to be deleted... so sorry.... issue #123, i# > > Some light/dark humour. > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 13:21:39 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:21:39 -0500 Subject: TV tuner card to give away... In-Reply-To: <4F0A881D.8060608-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4F09F105.7030401@rogers.com> <4F0A881D.8060608@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <4F0AE9E3.9020202@rogers.com> Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 12-01-08 02:57 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >>> Are there any analog stations in the GTA? > > The signals for channels 2 through 70 on Rogers cable are analog. > For now. However, they've already started handing out a digital terminal that provides only what's carried on the analog channels and not any of the digital only channels. Once enough customers have some form of digital, analog will be gone. Cable companies want to get rid of analog as soon as possible for a couple of reasons. 1) It uses a lot of bandwidth for what's provided. 2) Lock out those who have been "borrowing" a cable connection. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 14:36:55 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 09:36:55 -0500 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120109143655.GY27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Jan 08, 2012 at 08:39:11PM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I have a DVD's that were recorded from old family video 8 tapes. Is it possible (with Linux software - either free or not) to edit the ripped DVD? The idea being to record another DVD from the edited files. > > When I google for DVD editing, I can see that there are a few packages that can edit video and export to a DVD. I'm not quite sure if DVD files can be edited (maybe converted first?). If so, what about loss? > > I'm not looking for detail, only to know if it's possible. A tip on which software package would work might be handy too :). As suggested, a non linear editing tool should work. You do NOT have to reencode the video (and get quality loss) since every 8 frames or so has a keyfram, so as long as the cuts are done at a keyframe, you don't have to reencode anything. I have certainly made nice working DVDs with kdenlive and I sure won't claim to know what I am doing. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 18:47:18 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:47:18 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 03:04:29PM -0500, Alex Gabriel wrote: > There are deb files on the Opera site as well, but I'd rather not have > to add that step into the configuration necessary to get a new system > up and running. I prefer to simply install the operating, and then > run one command to install and configure everything I need. > > Yes, I'm aware that I could write a shell script to automate > installation and configuration on *buntu, I just see no specific > reason to switch to *buntu. > > I suppose I could have made my previous comments on PCLinuxOS a bit > clearer. I initially found the distro [after playing with Fedora 5, > and Mandrake], and installed it as my preferred distribution. Around > the same time, my employer [now former employer], decided to move all > desktops [except 3] and all servers to Linux. I applauded this idea, > of course, until I discovered Kubuntu was the distro of choice. > > I've never been a big fan of some choices made by the *buntu > developers, but the decision to select [using KDE] the Netbook > interface [when using a netbook] or Unity [using GNOME] when > installing [and without giving me the option to choose during install] > really annoyed me when I encountered it. > > GNOME's Unity can be disabled, and the workspace in KDE can be > changed, but why should I receive what someone else has determined is > the "best configuration" for my system when Linux is being installed? > > I realize these minor interface issues can be rectified, but I'd > rather have the choice to install the components I deem necessary to > my use of a system as opposed to someone making choices for me. If I > want my choices made for me, I'll switch to Apple products [insert > mindless zombie/sheep noises here], and stop using Linux altogether. > > PCLinuxOS does, by default, install specific applications, but it is > also very simple to remove them, and their configurations, if they are > inadvertently installed. Moreover, there's a "MiniMe" variant that > installs a much more slim version of the distro, so there's no bloat, > unless I want it. I've noted that *buntu over the years has become > more resource intensive, and I've no inclination to buy a new > netbook/laptop/desktop every year or two. Seems the sensible option would be Debian which only installs what you ask for. If you ask for nothing you get a basic linux system with a working package manager that you can tell what to install. I certainly am not a fan of Ubuntu in general. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 18:52:09 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:52:09 -0500 Subject: Reliable HDD SATA Enclosures/Adapters In-Reply-To: <4EFCCC0F.6040408-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFCCA2D.1090301@gmail.com> <4EFCCC0F.6040408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20120109185209.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 03:22:39PM -0500, Digimer wrote: > I've used many Vantec Nexstar3 (and variants) for years with good success. > > http://www.vantecusa.com/en/product/index/21 > > Most retailers carry Vantec carriers. That's what I always use too. Never a problem. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 18:55:00 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:55:00 -0800 Subject: Reliable HDD SATA Enclosures/Adapters In-Reply-To: <4EFCCC0F.6040408-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFCCA2D.1090301@gmail.com> <4EFCCC0F.6040408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: ditto. just be careful of the USB connectors, if the cord is pulled they can come loose On Dec 29, 2011 12:24 PM, "Digimer" wrote: > On 12/29/2011 03:14 PM, Mike Kallies wrote: > > Hey everyone, > > > > I know somebody will have a good opinion about this. Does anyone have > > any advice for *reliable* external drive enclosures, and where you might > > get one in the Toronto area? There are so many really bad ones out > > there. Some are fast at the beginning, but don't survive being on for > > long periods of time. Some are slow and unreliable, some break down on > > long file transfers. > > > > Price doesn't seem to indicate much either. Order of importance is: > > > > 1. reliablity > > 2. performance > > 3. price > > > > I'm looking at 2.5" and 3.5" enclosures or adapters. I tried the usual > > places online. canadacomputers, tigerdirect, newegg, amazon, the > > reviews are... misleading. > > > > Thanks for any input. > > > > -Mike > > I've used many Vantec Nexstar3 (and variants) for years with good success. > > http://www.vantecusa.com/en/product/index/21 > > Most retailers carry Vantec carriers. > > -- > Digimer > E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > Freenode handle: digimer > Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com > Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org > "omg my singularity battery is dead again. > stupid hawking radiation." - epitron > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 19:17:49 2012 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:17:49 -0500 Subject: Reliable HDD SATA Enclosures/Adapters In-Reply-To: <20120109185209.GA27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFCCA2D.1090301@gmail.com> <4EFCCC0F.6040408@alteeve.com> <20120109185209.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F0B3D5D.10706@gmail.com> On 09/01/2012 1:52 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 03:22:39PM -0500, Digimer wrote: >> I've used many Vantec Nexstar3 (and variants) for years with good success. >> >> http://www.vantecusa.com/en/product/index/21 >> >> Most retailers carry Vantec carriers. > > That's what I always use too. Never a problem. > This seems to be unanimous. Thanks for all the input. :-) -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 19:41:13 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:41:13 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120109184718.GZ27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 03:04:29PM -0500, Alex Gabriel wrote: >> There are deb files on the Opera site as well, but I'd rather not have [...] > Seems the sensible option would be Debian which only installs what you > ask for. ?If you ask for nothing you get a basic linux system with a > working package manager that you can tell what to install. > > I certainly am not a fan of Ubuntu in general. It all depends on your needs. Ubuntu is just fine for everyday workstations where you don't want to worry about things just working, no matter how bad the approach may be (much a la Windoze) but it get's the job done and it's not Windows. For specialized workstations and servers Debian is clearly a better choice. But then so is Slack and Gentoo. So it all depends... there is no one size fits all and that is the beauty of Open Source in particular Linux where there are many specialized distros for each need. -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 20:01:13 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 12:01:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reliable HDD SATA Enclosures/Adapters In-Reply-To: <4F0B3D5D.10706-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFCCA2D.1090301@gmail.com> <4EFCCC0F.6040408@alteeve.com> <20120109185209.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0B3D5D.10706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1326139273.85905.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> If you're buying new disk, then external disk is not a bad option.? It's even cheaper than internal ones. As for portable enclosure, Vantec.? Docking station, Thermaltake. Off topic.? One thing I noticed that external USB disk uses 4k block.? But, when I recently broke open a Hitachi external disk (I needed the bare disk), it's the same as internal disk sold separately with 512b sector.? In fact, it's exactly the model that I bought almost a year ago, except for newer firmware which accounts for being 50% faster.? This may create problems when you take the disk out and connect it directly to SATA. -- William >________________________________ > From: Mike Kallies >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 2:17:49 PM >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Reliable HDD SATA Enclosures/Adapters > >On 09/01/2012 1:52 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 03:22:39PM -0500, Digimer wrote: >>> I've used many Vantec Nexstar3 (and variants) for years with good success. >>> >>> http://www.vantecusa.com/en/product/index/21 >>> >>> Most retailers carry Vantec carriers. >> >> That's what I always use too.? Never a problem. >> > >This seems to be unanimous. > >Thanks for all the input.? :-) > >-Mike >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 20:02:42 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:02:42 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: > It all depends on your needs. Ubuntu is just fine for everyday > workstations where you don't want to worry about things just working, > no matter how bad the approach may be (much a la Windoze) but it get's > the job done and it's not Windows. The *one* place where I find Ubuntu to be a notable convenience is that the developers have been quite aggressive about getting it to function in conjunction with bleeding-edge-ish hardware (e.g. - reasonably recent laptops). Debian has the failing that it often doesn't have the "bleeding edge" kernels required to support some of the "flavour of the week" hardware. Mind you, some of those "flavours of the week" aren't notably wonderful. (Dell, I'm looking at you!) > For specialized workstations and servers Debian is clearly a better > choice. But then so is Slack and Gentoo. So it all depends... there is > no one size fits all and that is the beauty of Open Source in > particular Linux where there are many specialized distros for each > need. If "so is Slack and Gentoo," then it's not nearly so clear what is a better choice. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 20:12:58 2012 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 12:12:58 -0800 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> For specialized workstations and servers Debian is clearly a better >> choice. But then so is Slack and Gentoo. So it all depends... there is >> no one size fits all and that is the beauty of Open Source in >> particular Linux where there are many specialized distros for each >> need. > > If "so is Slack and Gentoo," then it's not nearly so clear what is a > better choice. I parsed Alejandro's comment as "Debian is clearly a better choice than Ubuntu for specialized workstations and servers", which is not contradicted by the fact that Slack and Gentoo are also better choices than Ubuntu in those cases. Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 20:50:14 2012 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:50:14 +0400 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F0B5306.7020406@gmail.com> Oh, once you helped me on this list how to go back to CentOS-like GUI - I am almost ok for now, with Ubuntu. I mean, almost. But I use it by necessity, not by choice. My preferences right now are not about learning OS but about using programs that can be installed. Ubuntu allowed me to install quite a few nice programs easy that I fighted with for years on CentOS. Besides, I am not at all impressed well. Perhaps indeed I should try next day a pure Debian or like that. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 21:17:59 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:17:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >If "so is Slack and Gentoo," then it's not nearly so clear what is a >better choice. I find that Slackware and CentOS (not Fedora) are the most well-behaved distros out there.? My horror stories of openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Mint, and Ubuntu are endless. ??? 1. openSUSE which has the nasty habit of going around corrupting the boot sectors of other partitions.? Fedora only corrupts /dev/sda5.? Honestly, why does a distro care about what's in the other partitions? ??? 2. Slackware and CentOS are the only one which I can install the bootloader in MBR or in root partition, and I can convert CentOS's GRUB into LILO which I have to do if I want both in MBR.? This is one reason why I want the bootloader in its own partition, and MBR should only ask you which partition you want to boot. ??? 3. Over the weekend, I found that Ubuntu-11.10 can only be installed MBR and must be GRUB only.? I even can't convert it to LILO as I can with other distros. These so-called "open source" distros are incorporating more and more "vendor-lockin" features. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 21:52:02 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:52:02 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:17 PM, William Park wrote: >>If "so is Slack and Gentoo," then it's not nearly so clear what is a >>better choice. > > I find that Slackware and CentOS (not Fedora) are the most well-behaved distros out there.? My horror stories of openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Mint, and Ubuntu are endless. > ??? 1. openSUSE which has the nasty habit of going around corrupting the boot sectors of other partitions.? Fedora only corrupts /dev/sda5.? Honestly, why does a distro care about what's in the other partitions? > > ??? 2. Slackware and CentOS are the only one which I can install the bootloader in MBR or in root partition, and I can convert CentOS's GRUB into LILO which I have to do if I want both in MBR.? This is one reason why I want the bootloader in its own partition, and MBR should only ask you which partition you want to boot. > > ??? 3. Over the weekend, I found that Ubuntu-11.10 can only be installed MBR and must be GRUB only.? I even can't convert it to LILO as I can with other distros. > > These so-called "open source" distros are incorporating more and more "vendor-lockin" features. How can it conceivably be called "vendor lock-in" when all modern Linux distributions support GRUB, which is generally agreed to be a lot more flexible and powerful than LILO? I'm not sure for how many years Slackware violated Donald Knuth's copyrights; if you're looking for sins, you can certainly find some there... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 21:55:15 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:55:15 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 02:41:13PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: > It all depends on your needs. Ubuntu is just fine for everyday > workstations where you don't want to worry about things just working, > no matter how bad the approach may be (much a la Windoze) but it get's > the job done and it's not Windows. That's just it. Ubuntu doesn't just work. It's too buggy for that. And good luck if you actually try to upgrade to the next version. Now if you were using Mint, OK then I will give you the claim of 'just works'. But not with Ubuntu. > For specialized workstations and servers Debian is clearly a better > choice. But then so is Slack and Gentoo. So it all depends... there is > no one size fits all and that is the beauty of Open Source in > particular Linux where there are many specialized distros for each > need. Actually I very much do think Debian does fit just about all tasks, including workstations. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 21:57:24 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:57:24 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120109215724.GC27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 01:17:59PM -0800, William Park wrote: > I find that Slackware and CentOS (not Fedora) are the most well-behaved distros out there.? My horror stories of openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Mint, and Ubuntu are endless. > ??? 1. openSUSE which has the nasty habit of going around corrupting the boot sectors of other partitions.? Fedora only corrupts /dev/sda5.? Honestly, why does a distro care about what's in the other partitions? > > ??? 2. Slackware and CentOS are the only one which I can install the bootloader in MBR or in root partition, and I can convert CentOS's GRUB into LILO which I have to do if I want both in MBR.? This is one reason why I want the bootloader in its own partition, and MBR should only ask you which partition you want to boot. Debian supports that. > ??? 3. Over the weekend, I found that Ubuntu-11.10 can only be installed MBR and must be GRUB only.? I even can't convert it to LILO as I can with other distros. > > These so-called "open source" distros are incorporating more and more "vendor-lockin" features. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 21:59:29 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:59:29 -0500 Subject: Reliable HDD SATA Enclosures/Adapters In-Reply-To: <1326139273.85905.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOFeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFCCA2D.1090301@gmail.com> <4EFCCC0F.6040408@alteeve.com> <20120109185209.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0B3D5D.10706@gmail.com> <1326139273.85905.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120109215929.GD27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 12:01:13PM -0800, William Park wrote: > If you're buying new disk, then external disk is not a bad option.? It's even cheaper than internal ones. > > As for portable enclosure, Vantec.? Docking station, Thermaltake. > > Off topic.? One thing I noticed that external USB disk uses 4k block.? But, when I recently broke open a Hitachi external disk (I needed the bare disk), it's the same as internal disk sold separately with 512b sector.? In fact, it's exactly the model that I bought almost a year ago, except for newer firmware which accounts for being 50% faster.? This may create problems when you take the disk out and connect it directly to SATA. My external disks use whatever sector size the disk uses. So with some newer WD drives the sector size is 4k, although presented as logical 512byte sectors for compatibility, but performance suffers if the system gets the alignment wrong. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 9 22:44:26 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:44:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1326149066.55357.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Well, I dare anyone to setup 15 partitions, and install a distro into each partition.? You just have to make sure Slackware is first, and openSUSE last. Since this thread is about Ubuntu, I see it loading kernel modules in GRUB config.? Why?? What's wrong with initrd?? Pretty soon, you're going to see Emacs at the sector 0. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Browne > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 4:52:02 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Ubuntu first time > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:17 PM, William Park > wrote: >>> If "so is Slack and Gentoo," then it's not nearly so clear > what is a >>> better choice. >> >> I find that Slackware and CentOS (not Fedora) are the most well-behaved > distros out there.? My horror stories of openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Mint, and > Ubuntu are endless. >> ??? 1. openSUSE which has the nasty habit of going around corrupting the > boot sectors of other partitions.? Fedora only corrupts /dev/sda5.? Honestly, > why does a distro care about what's in the other partitions? >> >> ??? 2. Slackware and CentOS are the only one which I can install the > bootloader in MBR or in root partition, and I can convert CentOS's GRUB into > LILO which I have to do if I want both in MBR.? This is one reason why I want > the bootloader in its own partition, and MBR should only ask you which partition > you want to boot. >> >> ??? 3. Over the weekend, I found that Ubuntu-11.10 can only be installed > MBR and must be GRUB only.? I even can't convert it to LILO as I can with > other distros. >> >> These so-called "open source" distros are incorporating more and > more "vendor-lockin" features. > > How can it conceivably be called "vendor lock-in" when all modern > Linux distributions support GRUB, which is generally agreed to be a > lot more flexible and powerful than LILO? > > I'm not sure for how many years Slackware violated Donald Knuth's > copyrights; if you're looking for sins, you can certainly find some > there... > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 00:30:33 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 19:30:33 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120109215515.GB27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 02:41:13PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> It all depends on your needs. Ubuntu is just fine for everyday >> workstations where you don't want to worry about things just working, >> no matter how bad the approach may be (much a la Windoze) but it get's >> the job done and it's not Windows. > > That's just it. ?Ubuntu doesn't just work. ?It's too buggy for that. > And good luck if you actually try to upgrade to the next version. > No man, you can't assert that just like that. We use Ubuntu on a daily basis and for much more than just simple stuff. I did find 11 to be somewhat broken and I waited until 11.10 to upgrade from 10.10. Same thing we've done since we started using it circa Ubuntu 5.04 We've used Debian stable extensively as well, a bit befor Woody, though for the past few years we've migrated all our Internet servers to FBSD. We are currently using Debian mostly for embedded solutions and for deployment of VMs. We also used Gentoo and Slack in past but not anymore. > Now if you were using Mint, OK then I will give you the claim of > 'just works'. ?But not with Ubuntu. > Again I have to disagree. It may not work for you, but it works for us, so I must vouch in favor of. I'm not saying is the best distro by any means, but our particular needs to get laptops working quickly and get stuff installed easily it works. For example, try and get Android devel env on Debian stable, close to impossible or very quirky. Simple stuff like OpenProject or a decent version of any package. Again, Debian testing is different, but still some apps tend to be very old as well. Debian unstable is just unsuable, so for apt-based distro you're probably left with Ubuntu as a better choice. Not for every application, but great for getting the job done. Most Linux software works well and officially supported with Ubuntu (e.g. Skype) so it's become some sort of standard. For example, we run a team of developers that work both in Mac OSX and Ubuntu and deploy on FBSD. i don't want my programmers to spend hours getting somewhat later versions of open source packages that are very updated both in MacPorts and FreeBSD, so Debian in that sense started getting in the way. >> For specialized workstations and servers Debian is clearly a better >> choice. But then so is Slack and Gentoo. So it all depends... there is >> no one size fits all and that is the beauty of Open Source in >> particular Linux where there are many specialized distros for each >> need. > > Actually I very much do think Debian does fit just about all tasks, > including workstations. > Yes and no. Maybe if you use testing, but stable is simply too retrograde to be very useful as a workstation. As a server, it's usually great and very stable and secure, yet it has had it's share of problems there. One thing that drove me a bit away of Debian is that their concept of patching stuff to Debianize it seem a bit extreme and over zealous. Rememebr the OpenSSH fiasco for example. In conclusion, none of Linux distros are perfect, but you can't say Ubuntu is a bad distro. IMHO it has probably done more than any other distro to get Linux on the map. It's not meant as an inflammatory comment and get into a distro war, but I think we must be fair and objective with our comments here. Cheers! -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 02:16:26 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 21:16:26 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 02:41:13PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>> It all depends on your needs. Ubuntu is just fine for everyday >>> workstations where you don't want to worry about things just working, >>> no matter how bad the approach may be (much a la Windoze) but it get's >>> the job done and it's not Windows. >> >> That's just it. ?Ubuntu doesn't just work. ?It's too buggy for that. >> And good luck if you actually try to upgrade to the next version. >> > > No man, you can't assert that just like that. We use Ubuntu on a daily > basis and for much more than just simple stuff. I did find 11 to be > somewhat broken and I waited until 11.10 to upgrade from 10.10. ??? That's EXACTLY LENNART'S POINT. That _never happens_ with Debian. Ever. But as you yourself say, it does happen with Ubuntu. A lot. > Same thing we've done since we started using it circa Ubuntu 5.04 Wow, that sounds like amazing fun. Why not just load Debian and never have to even worry if some or other release of Ubuntu is going to be, as YOU describe it, 'somewhat broken'? > We've used Debian stable extensively as well, a bit befor Woody, > though for the past few years we've migrated all our Internet servers > to FBSD. We are currently using Debian mostly for embedded solutions > and for deployment of VMs. > > We also used Gentoo and Slack in past but not anymore. > >> Now if you were using Mint, OK then I will give you the claim of >> 'just works'. ?But not with Ubuntu. >> > > Again I have to disagree. It may not work for you, but it works for > us, so I must vouch in favor of. I'm not saying is the best distro by > any means, but our particular needs to get laptops working quickly and > get stuff installed easily it works. For example, try and get Android > devel env on Debian stable, close to impossible or very quirky. Simple > stuff like OpenProject or a decent version of any package. Again, > Debian testing is different, but still some apps tend to be very old > as well. Debian unstable is just unsuable, so for apt-based distro > you're probably left with Ubuntu as a better choice. Not for every > application, but great for getting the job done. How _exactly_ is Debian Unstable 'unusable' (I'm assuming that's the word you meant)? > Most Linux software works well and officially supported with Ubuntu > (e.g. Skype) so it's become some sort of standard. For example, we run > a team of developers that work both in Mac OSX and Ubuntu and deploy > on FBSD. i don't want my programmers to spend hours getting somewhat > later versions of open source packages that are very updated both in > MacPorts and FreeBSD, so Debian in that sense started getting in the > way. > >>> For specialized workstations and servers Debian is clearly a better >>> choice. But then so is Slack and Gentoo. So it all depends... there is >>> no one size fits all and that is the beauty of Open Source in >>> particular Linux where there are many specialized distros for each >>> need. >> >> Actually I very much do think Debian does fit just about all tasks, >> including workstations. >> > > Yes and no. Maybe if you use testing, but stable is simply too > retrograde to be very useful as a workstation. As a server, it's > usually great and very stable and secure, yet it has had it's share of > problems there. One thing that drove me a bit away of Debian is that > their concept of patching stuff to Debianize it seem a bit extreme and > over zealous. Rememebr the OpenSSH fiasco for example. > > In conclusion, none of Linux distros are perfect, but you can't say > Ubuntu is a bad distro. IMHO it has probably done more than any other > distro to get Linux on the map. It's not meant as an inflammatory > comment and get into a distro war, but I think we must be fair and > objective with our comments here. You mean like 'Debian Unstable is unusable'? > Cheers! > > -- > Alejandro Imass -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 02:39:06 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 02:39:06 +0000 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers In-Reply-To: <20120109143655.GY27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: ,<20120109143655.GY27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Reading the documentation from each web site, AVIDemux does mention that it can accept input from vob files. I don't see the same in kdenlive. Lennart, did you actually edit vob files from a DVD in kdenlive or just export video to DVD? Thanks, John. > Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 09:36:55 -0500 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: All Video Editing Lovers > From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org > > On Sun, Jan 08, 2012 at 08:39:11PM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I have a DVD's that were recorded from old family video 8 tapes. Is it possible (with Linux software - either free or not) to edit the ripped DVD? The idea being to record another DVD from the edited files. > > > > When I google for DVD editing, I can see that there are a few packages that can edit video and export to a DVD. I'm not quite sure if DVD files can be edited (maybe converted first?). If so, what about loss? > > > > I'm not looking for detail, only to know if it's possible. A tip on which software package would work might be handy too :). > > As suggested, a non linear editing tool should work. > > You do NOT have to reencode the video (and get quality loss) since every 8 > frames or so has a keyfram, so as long as the cuts are done at a keyframe, > you don't have to reencode anything. > > I have certainly made nice working DVDs with kdenlive and I sure won't > claim to know what I am doing. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 04:29:22 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:29:22 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <1326149066.55357.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOFeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1326149066.55357.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F0BBEA2.9070808@gmail.com> On 12-01-09 17:44 , William Park wrote: > > Pretty soon, you're > going to see Emacs at the sector 0. Where can I sign up? An OS is really just something that can host emacs. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 04:36:00 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:36:00 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F0BC030.8030000@gmail.com> On 12-01-09 21:16 , Thomas Milne wrote: > > That's EXACTLY LENNART'S POINT. That _never happens_ with Debian. > Ever. But as you yourself say, it does happen with Ubuntu. A lot. What about that lovely sshd upgrade that the Debianites foisted on us that opened a whole giant vulnerability? You can't say it never happens now. Karl Popper *will* get you in the end ... I must be doing something wrong. Been running two machines from early Ubuntu 9-ish to current, using auto-updates. Apart from the time that the power went out mid-way through and I had to dpkg-reconfigure everything from one command, they're running fine. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 05:54:57 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:54:57 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Lennart Sorensen >> wrote: >>> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 02:41:13PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: [...] > That's EXACTLY LENNART'S POINT. That _never happens_ with Debian. > Ever. But as you yourself say, it does happen with Ubuntu. A lot. > It does happen with Debian also and just saying it doesn't mean it's true. You post is typical Debianite zealotry that ultimately leads to errors like the ssh scandal, which you seem to have deliberately ignored in my last post. They do happen in Debian, *very publicly and shamefully so* - it was Debian stable, so don't say they don't happen "Ever", because it undermines the credibility of your whole post. I can understand why Debianites are pissed off at Ubuntu but it doesn't justify creating FUD on it, on ANY Linux distro for that matter. >> Same thing we've done since we started using it circa Ubuntu 5.04 > > Wow, that sounds like amazing fun. Why not just load Debian and never > have to even worry if some or other release of Ubuntu is going to be, > as YOU describe it, 'somewhat broken'? > I don't install _any_ software on it's point o version. In Ubuntu it seems they have adopted Microsoft's approach to client beta testing but at least they don't charge people for it. The .10 versions seem to be quite stable, and people should wait for those. [...] > How _exactly_ is Debian Unstable 'unusable' (I'm assuming that's the > word you meant)? > [...] > > You mean like 'Debian Unstable is unusable'? > Oh my god! I have a typo, please spare my life! If you are a Debian user you know for a fact that Debian unstable is so quirky it makes it unusable, un-usable, not-usable, or whatever you wanna call it, like it's very name: unstable and hardly good for any practical use. "Testing" is quite good and probably the best choice for doing anything on the desktop that requires some relatively new version of anything. Stable is great for servers yet the packaging is so old it can be challenging sometimes to get things done and you may wind up compiling many things from source. Debian is a great OS, but so is Ubuntu and it's unfair to create this FUD just because YOU think Debian is awesome and Ubuntu is crap, because it's not. They satisfy different needs and to solve real-world problems, and so do the other Linux distros, and non Linux OSes as well. -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 08:05:11 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:05:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Alejandro Imass | I don't install _any_ software on it's point o version. In Ubuntu it | seems they have adopted Microsoft's approach to client beta testing | but at least they don't charge people for it. The .10 versions seem to | be quite stable, and people should wait for those. I have trouble with Ubuntu and Fedora releases. I guess I'm a trouble-magnet. I haven't even tried Debian, so I cannot compare it. Ubuntu's "cadence" isn't two phase, as far as I know. So .04 and .10 versions should have an equal chance of perfection. Except for LTS versions. The current LTS is 10.04; next is 12.04. 10.04 wasn't perfect out of the gate. In fact, it isn't even perfect now. But it is pretty solid (and a bit stale). Stale and solid are correlated for most distros, I imagine. Ubuntu LTS versions sometimes come out with even-more-dots versions which are fixed but not advanced, more or less. Like 10.04.1. My strategy for non-critical installations is to wait a couple of months for the dust to settle before using either a Fedora release or a Ubuntu release. Solid Current Exciting ===== ======= ======== RHEL/CentOS Fedora Rawhide Ubuntu LTS Ubuntu beta / RC Debian Stable Debian Unstable Debian Testing (Sid?) I like the idea of Solid, but I often find it too stale for my taste. I wish updated Live CD images were easy to come by. I think Fedora lets you "respin" Live CDs, but I haven't looked at how much machinery you need. I wonder if Live USB stick version can be updated by the normal update mechanisms of the distro. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 14:53:58 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:53:58 -0500 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers In-Reply-To: References: <20120109143655.GY27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120110145358.GE27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 02:39:06AM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > Reading the documentation from each web site, AVIDemux does mention that it can accept input from vob files. I don't see the same in kdenlive. Lennart, did you actually edit vob files from a DVD in kdenlive or just export video to DVD? I am pretty sure I loaded some .vob files. It has been a while though. I just tried it though and it loads .vob files perfectly as expected. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 14:55:38 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:55:38 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <1326149066.55357.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOFeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1326149066.55357.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120110145538.GF27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 02:44:26PM -0800, William Park wrote: > Well, I dare anyone to setup 15 partitions, and install a distro into each partition.? You just have to make sure Slackware is first, and openSUSE last. > > Since this thread is about Ubuntu, I see it loading kernel modules in GRUB config.? Why?? What's wrong with initrd?? Pretty soon, you're going to see Emacs at the sector 0. GRUB 2 is modular. You see it loading grub modules in grub config. This is normal and a good thing. Nothing to do with kernel modules. Now you could use multiboot support and load kernel modules I suppose but I have never seen anyone do that. Maybe Ubuntu decided to try that, although that would surprise me. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 15:03:19 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:03:19 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 07:30:33PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: > No man, you can't assert that just like that. We use Ubuntu on a daily > basis and for much more than just simple stuff. I did find 11 to be > somewhat broken and I waited until 11.10 to upgrade from 10.10. Same > thing we've done since we started using it circa Ubuntu 5.04 > > We've used Debian stable extensively as well, a bit befor Woody, > though for the past few years we've migrated all our Internet servers > to FBSD. We are currently using Debian mostly for embedded solutions > and for deployment of VMs. > > We also used Gentoo and Slack in past but not anymore. I haven't used slackware in many years (not since the time it was about the only choice). Gentoo to me has always been a complete misguided joke. I can't honestly take any of the BSDs seriously anymore. They are just so outdated compared to Linux. I used to use netBSD but haven't for about a decade now. There simply is not reason to. > Again I have to disagree. It may not work for you, but it works for > us, so I must vouch in favor of. I'm not saying is the best distro by > any means, but our particular needs to get laptops working quickly and > get stuff installed easily it works. For example, try and get Android > devel env on Debian stable, close to impossible or very quirky. Simple > stuff like OpenProject or a decent version of any package. Again, > Debian testing is different, but still some apps tend to be very old > as well. Debian unstable is just unsuable, so for apt-based distro > you're probably left with Ubuntu as a better choice. Not for every > application, but great for getting the job done. I have less trouble running Debian unstable than probably most people running stable releases of other distributions. > Most Linux software works well and officially supported with Ubuntu > (e.g. Skype) so it's become some sort of standard. For example, we run > a team of developers that work both in Mac OSX and Ubuntu and deploy > on FBSD. i don't want my programmers to spend hours getting somewhat > later versions of open source packages that are very updated both in > MacPorts and FreeBSD, so Debian in that sense started getting in the > way. Debian has backports that work great, but Debian stable is very much intended to be reliable not up to date. Similar to what Ubuntu does with LTS to some extend. The Debian CUT idea could very well be nice if it gets going. CUT being 'continuously usable testing'. > Yes and no. Maybe if you use testing, but stable is simply too > retrograde to be very useful as a workstation. As a server, it's > usually great and very stable and secure, yet it has had it's share of > problems there. One thing that drove me a bit away of Debian is that > their concept of patching stuff to Debianize it seem a bit extreme and > over zealous. Rememebr the OpenSSH fiasco for example. Why does a workstation need to run the latest of everything? Tons of people still run XP. Clearly newest is not what most people want. > In conclusion, none of Linux distros are perfect, but you can't say > Ubuntu is a bad distro. IMHO it has probably done more than any other > distro to get Linux on the map. It's not meant as an inflammatory > comment and get into a distro war, but I think we must be fair and > objective with our comments here. Until they drop fixed release dates and start aiming for quality releases instead, I will continue to say it is a bad distribution. Fixed release dates have never worked for anything and never will. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 15:08:01 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:08:01 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4F0BC030.8030000-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0BC030.8030000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120110150801.GH27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 11:36:00PM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > What about that lovely sshd upgrade that the Debianites foisted on > us that opened a whole giant vulnerability? You can't say it never > happens now. Karl Popper *will* get you in the end ... The ssh random number bug for key generation from some years ago was certainly unfortunate. Everyone has bugs occationally. The system worked great though, the keys generated just weren't that good. One small mistake in one package (which didn't make the system unstable or unusable) hardly means the distribution is bad. It just happened to be a very unfortunate mistake. > I must be doing something wrong. Been running two machines from > early Ubuntu 9-ish to current, using auto-updates. Apart from the > time that the power went out mid-way through and I had to > dpkg-reconfigure everything from one command, they're running fine. My Debian 2.0 installed machine is still working after 13 years of upgrading. It could use being moved to a new disk though. The bearings sound awful on the current disk. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 15:13:11 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:13:11 -0500 Subject: Commercial Surveillance, who is going to remain part of the problem? Message-ID: <4F0C5587.5000503@ss.org> I knew there was a reason I disliked using social network services. It was partially the lack of control over how my information would be used, but I was having trouble articulating it in a manner which would be meaningful to others. Well worth a read for it's honesty and brevity, but powerful point. http://www.betabeat.com/2011/12/13/in-which-eben-moglen-like-legit-yells-at-me-for-being-on-facebook/ -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 15:14:19 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:14:19 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120110151419.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:54:57AM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: > It does happen with Debian also and just saying it doesn't mean it's > true. You post is typical Debianite zealotry that ultimately leads to > errors like the ssh scandal, which you seem to have deliberately > ignored in my last post. They do happen in Debian, *very publicly and > shamefully so* - it was Debian stable, so don't say they don't happen > "Ever", because it undermines the credibility of your whole post. > > I can understand why Debianites are pissed off at Ubuntu but it > doesn't justify creating FUD on it, on ANY Linux distro for that > matter. My problem with Ubuntu is that their idiotic fixed release dates means they are releasing unstable and often broken software which frequently breaks things when upgrading. I thoroughly believe in releasing stuff when it is ready and not before. Ubuntu clearly doesn't care. Ubuntu had a lovely X server upgrade a few years ago that completely broke X for anyone using an intel video chip. Apparently most Ubuntu developers don't use that. Most users apaprently do. I don't remember if it was a security update or not, but it was an update to a stable release. > I don't install _any_ software on it's point o version. In Ubuntu it > seems they have adopted Microsoft's approach to client beta testing > but at least they don't charge people for it. The .10 versions seem to > be quite stable, and people should wait for those. .10 means released in October. No more, no less. .04 means released in April. No more, no less. > Oh my god! I have a typo, please spare my life! > > If you are a Debian user you know for a fact that Debian unstable is > so quirky it makes it unusable, un-usable, not-usable, or whatever you > wanna call it, like it's very name: unstable and hardly good for any > practical use. stable and unstable in Debian terms means 'packages don't change versions and packages do change versions'. If you want unstable software in Debian, you would at least have to go to experimental. unstable is perfectly usable 99.9% of the time. > "Testing" is quite good and probably the best choice for doing > anything on the desktop that requires some relatively new version of > anything. Stable is great for servers yet the packaging is so old it > can be challenging sometimes to get things done and you may wind up > compiling many things from source. > > Debian is a great OS, but so is Ubuntu and it's unfair to create this > FUD just because YOU think Debian is awesome and Ubuntu is crap, > because it's not. They satisfy different needs and to solve real-world > problems, and so do the other Linux distros, and non Linux OSes as > well. I do like some of what Ubuntu has done, and they certainly are helping Debian with many things (like multiarch). I just want them to stop releasing things before they are tested and ready. Also what the heck were they thinking with Unity? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 15:16:26 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:16:26 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120110151626.GJ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 03:05:11AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I have trouble with Ubuntu and Fedora releases. I guess I'm a > trouble-magnet. I haven't even tried Debian, so I cannot compare it. > > Ubuntu's "cadence" isn't two phase, as far as I know. So .04 and .10 > versions should have an equal chance of perfection. Except for LTS > versions. Correct. > The current LTS is 10.04; next is 12.04. 10.04 wasn't perfect out of > the gate. In fact, it isn't even perfect now. But it is pretty solid > (and a bit stale). Stale and solid are correlated for most distros, I > imagine. > > Ubuntu LTS versions sometimes come out with even-more-dots versions > which are fixed but not advanced, more or less. Like 10.04.1. > > My strategy for non-critical installations is to wait a couple of > months for the dust to settle before using either a Fedora release or > a Ubuntu release. > > Solid Current Exciting > ===== ======= ======== > RHEL/CentOS Fedora Rawhide > Ubuntu LTS Ubuntu beta / RC > Debian Stable Debian Unstable Debian Testing (Sid?) Did you swap unstable and testing? Testing is wheezy (the next release). Unstable is sid (always is). Sid liked to break toys after all. > I like the idea of Solid, but I often find it too stale for my taste. > > I wish updated Live CD images were easy to come by. I think Fedora > lets you "respin" Live CDs, but I haven't looked at how much machinery > you need. > > I wonder if Live USB stick version can be updated by the normal update > mechanisms of the distro. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 15:38:59 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:38:59 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120110151419.GI27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110151419.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F0C5B93.1000203@the-wire.com> On 01/10/2012 10:14 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I do like some of what Ubuntu has done, and they certainly are helping > Debian with many things (like multiarch). I just want them to stop > releasing things before they are tested and ready. > > Also what the heck were they thinking with Unity? That's what's getting to me with Ubuntu. If you take any of it, you take it all. Avoiding big GUI changes also means doing without the latest versions of packages that I really do need. Unless I install them myself. Which is more and more like using Slackware. If Slackware has picked up the things that lately make X configuration so easy, I might do that. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 15:54:53 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:54:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4F0C5B93.1000203-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110151419.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C5B93.1000203@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <1326210893.15904.YahooMailNeo@web113411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X -configure -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mel Wilson > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:38:59 AM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Ubuntu first time > > On 01/10/2012 10:14 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> I do like some of what Ubuntu has done, and they certainly are helping >> Debian with many things (like multiarch).? I just want them to stop >> releasing things before they are tested and ready. >> >> Also what the heck were they thinking with Unity? > > That's what's getting to me with Ubuntu.? If you take any of it, you > take it all.? Avoiding big GUI changes also means doing without the latest > versions of packages that I really do need.? Unless I install them myself.? > Which is more and more like using Slackware. > > If Slackware has picked up the things that lately make X configuration so easy, > I might do that. > > ? ? Mel. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 16:05:57 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:05:57 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120110150319.GG27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 07:30:33PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> No man, you can't assert that just like that. We use Ubuntu on a daily [...] > Until they drop fixed release dates and start aiming for quality releases > instead, I will continue to say it is a bad distribution. ?Fixed release > dates have never worked for anything and never will. > That's a technical and moderated point of view and completely valid, again from one particular perspective. Please note I am not saying Ubuntu is perfect, nor that it's better than Debian or anything of the sort. My comments in this thread are specifically against creating unfair FUD against _any_ other distro just because you (not *you*, but in a general sense) may think the sun shine out the ass of your particular distro. Many distros exist exactly because of this and we should aggregate, no segregate in Open Source communities. The zealosy distro bullshit is one of the things that has traditionally fragmented Linux communities and makes it harder to get Open Source in the main stream government and Enterprise. Divide and conquer my friend, and that is _exactly_ what traditional software corporations do whilst we spent our precious time arguing about how great my distro is. Regarding the Debian community in particular, they seem to think that everything else is crap, and that has been my point all along. I have learned the hard way that zealotry is the #1 enemy of Open Source. Cheers, -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 16:17:49 2012 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:17:49 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4F0BBEA2.9070808-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1326149066.55357.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F0BBEA2.9070808@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 12-01-09 17:44 , William Park wrote: >> >> >> Pretty soon, you're >> going to see Emacs at the sector 0. > > > Where can I sign up? An OS is really just something that can host emacs. I laughed so hard when I read this, my pinky finger started to hurt. > > ?Stewart > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 16:24:40 2012 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:24:40 -0500 Subject: Commercial Surveillance, who is going to remain part of the problem? In-Reply-To: <4F0C5587.5000503-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4F0C5587.5000503@ss.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > I knew there was a reason I disliked using social network services. > It was partially the lack of control over how my information would be used, > but I was having trouble articulating it in a manner which would be > meaningful to others. > > Well worth a read for it's honesty and brevity, but powerful point. > > http://www.betabeat.com/2011/12/13/in-which-eben-moglen-like-legit-yells-at-me-for-being-on-facebook/ > > -- > Scott Sullivan I don't see how information stored on Facebook, Twitter, or other social networks differs from having a public website or blog where you control your data. I think if we truly want to educate users we need to tell them that anything published on the Internet (even for example if it's a protected Twitter account or a Google+ message sent only to two other people) is public information and can be archive for an indefinite period of time and used by anyone for anything. -- Myles Braithwaite http://mylesbraithwaite.com | me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 16:41:48 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:41:48 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <1326210893.15904.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOGORdMXk8NaZPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110151419.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C5B93.1000203@the-wire.com> <1326210893.15904.YahooMailNeo@web113411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120110164148.GK27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 07:54:53AM -0800, William Park wrote: > X -configure In most cases: X Who needs a config file for X anymore? It often doesn't need one. The auto detection actually works most of the time now. I still have one though. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 16:45:51 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:45:51 -0500 Subject: Commercial Surveillance, who is going to remain part of the problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4F0C5587.5000503@ss.org> Message-ID: On 10 January 2012 11:24, Myles Braithwaite wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> I knew there was a reason I disliked using social network services. >> It was partially the lack of control over how my information would be used, >> but I was having trouble articulating it in a manner which would be >> meaningful to others. >> >> Well worth a read for it's honesty and brevity, but powerful point. >> >> http://www.betabeat.com/2011/12/13/in-which-eben-moglen-like-legit-yells-at-me-for-being-on-facebook/ >> > > I don't see how information stored on Facebook, Twitter, or other > social networks differs from having a public website or blog where you > control your data. I think if we truly want to educate users we need > to tell them that anything published on the Internet (even for example > if it's a protected Twitter account or a Google+ message sent only to > two other people) is public information and can be archive for an > indefinite period of time and used by anyone for anything. Does your personal website have a tagging system for associating a portion of a photo to a personal profile, thus helping to train a massive facial recognition system? No? Even if your website tied photos to names reliably, it seems unlikely it would be API-compatible with Facebook's system. Personal websites can be scraped for information, but posting information there instead of on Facebook substantially reduces the amount of data the major players can get and makes it more difficult for them to get that information. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 16:48:50 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:48:50 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120110164850.GL27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:05:57AM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: > That's a technical and moderated point of view and completely valid, > again from one particular perspective. > > Please note I am not saying Ubuntu is perfect, nor that it's better > than Debian or anything of the sort. My comments in this thread are > specifically against creating unfair FUD against _any_ other distro > just because you (not *you*, but in a general sense) may think the sun > shine out the ass of your particular distro. Many distros exist > exactly because of this and we should aggregate, no segregate in Open > Source communities. > > The zealosy distro bullshit is one of the things that has > traditionally fragmented Linux communities and makes it harder to get > Open Source in the main stream government and Enterprise. Divide and > conquer my friend, and that is _exactly_ what traditional software > corporations do whilst we spent our precious time arguing about how > great my distro is. > > Regarding the Debian community in particular, they seem to think that > everything else is crap, and that has been my point all along. I have > learned the hard way that zealotry is the #1 enemy of Open Source. The Debian commmunity works great with lots of other communities. Many Debian developers are also Ubuntu developers as far as I can tell. I am NOT a Debian developer. Just a user. I just happen to think that releasing things that are not good shouldn't be done. Ubuntu's standards are too low. Their absolute need to meet a fixed deadline assures that has to be the case. Good enough is something Ubuntu accepts (as does Fedora for the same reason). I really doubt Ubuntu has a bug category of 'release critical' which prevents a release from happening until it is fixed. Debian does. If you can do a good job, why would you choose to do less? I don't think any release of Windows has ever been out at the scheduled release date. I don't think that's a bad thing, I think it is better they waited for it to be ready (not that windows is necesarily that good, but at least they try). So in that respect even Microsoft does a better job than Ubuntu and Fedora (and anyone else that has the same crazy idea of release scheduling). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 16:49:30 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:49:30 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1326143879.46923.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1326149066.55357.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F0BBEA2.9070808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120110164930.GM27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:17:49AM -0500, Russell Reiter wrote: > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > On 12-01-09 17:44 , William Park wrote: > >> > >> > >> Pretty soon, you're > >> going to see Emacs at the sector 0. > > > > > > Where can I sign up? An OS is really just something that can host emacs. > > I laughed so hard when I read this, my pinky finger started to hurt. I thought I had heard emacs was an OS. What does it need a host OS for? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 16:51:15 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:51:15 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120110150319.GG27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 07:30:33PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> No man, you can't assert that just like that. We use Ubuntu on a daily >> basis and for much more than just simple stuff. I did find 11 to be [...] > I can't honestly take any of the BSDs seriously anymore. ?They are just > so outdated compared to Linux. ?I used to use netBSD but haven't for > about a decade now. ?There simply is not reason to. > I think this is a very myopic statement and shows that the Linux crowd needs to get out more, especially so in the Debian crowd. Let me just point out *some* differences between FBSD and Linux. And again, I'm not saying that Linux is bad, but since you have made it a habit to throw careless FUD everywhere it is necessary to point just some benefits of FBSD: 1) For starters, Linux's overly-optimistic vm is really crappy for high-load systems and no matter how you tweak it you will never get the high-load stability of a FBSD kernel. At least not to date. A simple example, just push linux to near exhaustion of swap and: *boom*, you will need to eventually reboot as it never recovers completely. The over optimistic vm is a well known problem in the Linux Kernel, and _any one_ can try this at home with ab or httperf with a 2.6.x. Linux kernel running a memory hungry multi-threaded Apache application. 2) Another problem with Linux is the mixing of base system and applications. In *BSD there is a clear-cut separation between the base system and the application world, making it not only extremely secure, but very stable in upgrades. You can upgrade apps and system practically independent from each other. This could easily be done by any Linux distro, but none to date have. 3) FBSD Jails: There is nothing like this in the Linux world to date, and it's a shame because it would be so easy as is nothing more than a sophisticated chroot environment. Jails amongst other things (like pseudo-virtualization without overhead) allows you to further separate base system from running services with so-called "service jails" 4) The ports/package system. One thing that is superior IMO with the FBSD posrts system is the way they are able to use packages directly from source and use a very clever patching mechanism, which is a *light* modification to the original package.This makes it relatively easy to use the newest versions of the source paakcges. Debian, on the other hand (and may other a Linux distro) , tend to modify packages extensively to make them *their way* and this is not only inefficient and resource intensive, but brings forth may problems and goes against common-sense and cost-effective maintainability. These are only scratching the surface. The point here is not saying that FBSD is better than Linux because they each serve a purpose and should be respected for that. Linux may be great for some applications but that also holds true for *BSD and other Open Source OSs; things like MenuetOS, Open Solaris, etc, which most Linux enthusiasts ignore altogether, living in their own little Linux world and fighting over KDE vs. Gnome and Debian vs. Ubuntu vs. Fedora, Free Software vs. Open Source, etc. I use and love Linux on a daily basis, but also FBSD and MacOSX and they are all great systems each with it's pros and cons, virtues and flaws. And yes, it took me many years to abandon zealotry and discover a broader and richer world in Free Software _and_ Open Source. Best, -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 16:53:50 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:53:50 -0500 Subject: Commercial Surveillance, who is going to remain part of the problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4F0C5587.5000503@ss.org> Message-ID: <4F0C6D1E.1070105@ss.org> On 01/10/2012 11:24 AM, Myles Braithwaite wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> I knew there was a reason I disliked using social network services. >> It was partially the lack of control over how my information would be used, >> but I was having trouble articulating it in a manner which would be >> meaningful to others. >> >> Well worth a read for it's honesty and brevity, but powerful point. >> >> http://www.betabeat.com/2011/12/13/in-which-eben-moglen-like-legit-yells-at-me-for-being-on-facebook/ >> >> -- >> Scott Sullivan > > > I don't see how information stored on Facebook, Twitter, or other > social networks differs from having a public website or blog where you > control your data. I think if we truly want to educate users we need > to tell them that anything published on the Internet (even for example > if it's a protected Twitter account or a Google+ message sent only to > two other people) is public information and can be archive for an > indefinite period of time and used by anyone for anything. > I disagree, service like Facebook and other social networks claim to permit privacy. A claim that has been proven false again and again. They also make changes to your level of privacy with out your permission. Services you control allow you to share information with select individuals usually through authentication. Because you control the service, you control your privacy and it doesn't change without your direct interaction, and know one at a company can walk through in the background. It's also a matter of Friction. If everyones data is stored on personal servers (Plug computer or otherwise), then friction involved in collecting that data for surveillance also increases significantly. Examples of this friction are the bandwidth costs and the security barriers of your server in regards to actually keeping semi-private information private to only the intended recipients. This is a in stark contrast to single link into facebook's datacenter and going through every image at leisure regardless of the users privacy settings on the data. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 17:00:04 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:00:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120110164148.GK27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110151419.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C5B93.1000203@the-wire.com> <1326210893.15904.YahooMailNeo@web113411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120110164148.GK27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1326214804.73607.YahooMailNeo@web113412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> True.? Slackware doesn't have it anymore.? At first, I thought the install had gone wrong, so I install it again.? I realized only after looking the install logs, and confirmed by looking at other distros. -- William >________________________________ > From: Lennart Sorensen >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:41:48 AM >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Ubuntu first time > >On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 07:54:53AM -0800, William Park wrote: >> X -configure > >In most cases: > >X > >Who needs a config file for X anymore?? It often doesn't need one. >The auto detection actually works most of the time now. > >I still have one though. :) > >-- >Len Sorensen >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 17:09:09 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:09:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question about FBSD (was: Ubuntu first time) In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1326215349.85911.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Ok, question about FBSD.? Can someone explain to me the partition layout of FBSD?? I can't install it into a logical partition.? It has to be a primary.? It then slices it into something resembling LVM which I don't use because I can't remember their command line arguments. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alejandro Imass > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:51:15 AM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Ubuntu first time > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 07:30:33PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>> No man, you can't assert that just like that. We use Ubuntu on a > daily >>> basis and for much more than just simple stuff. I did find 11 to be > [...] > >> I can't honestly take any of the BSDs seriously anymore. ?They are just >> so outdated compared to Linux. ?I used to use netBSD but haven't for >> about a decade now. ?There simply is not reason to. >> > > I think this is a very? myopic statement and shows that the Linux > crowd needs to get out more, especially so in the Debian crowd. > > Let me just point out *some* differences between FBSD and Linux. And > again, I'm not saying that Linux is bad, but since you have made it a > habit to throw careless FUD everywhere it is necessary to point just > some benefits of FBSD: > > 1) For starters, Linux's overly-optimistic vm is really crappy for > high-load systems and no matter how you tweak it you will never get > the high-load stability of a FBSD kernel. At least not to date. A > simple example, just push linux to near exhaustion of swap and: > *boom*, you will need to eventually reboot as it never recovers > completely. The over optimistic vm is a well known problem in the > Linux Kernel, and _any one_ can try this at home with ab or httperf > with a 2.6.x. Linux kernel running a memory hungry multi-threaded > Apache application. > > 2) Another problem with Linux is the mixing of base system and > applications. In *BSD there is a clear-cut separation between the base > system and the application world, making it not only extremely secure, > but very stable in upgrades. You can upgrade apps and system > practically independent from each other. This could easily be done by > any Linux distro, but none to date have. > > 3) FBSD Jails: There is nothing like this in the Linux world to date, > and it's a shame because it would be so easy as is nothing more than a > sophisticated chroot environment. Jails amongst other things (like > pseudo-virtualization without overhead) allows you to further separate > base system from running services with so-called "service jails" > > 4) The ports/package system. One thing that is superior IMO with the > FBSD posrts system is the way they are able to use packages directly > from source and use a very clever patching mechanism, which is a > *light* modification to the original package.This makes it relatively > easy to use the newest versions of the source paakcges. Debian, on the > other hand (and may other a Linux distro)? , tend to modify packages > extensively to make them *their way* and this is not only inefficient > and resource intensive, but brings forth may problems and goes against > common-sense and cost-effective maintainability. > > These are only scratching the surface. The point here is not saying > that FBSD is better than Linux because they each serve a purpose and > should be respected for that. Linux may be great for some applications > but that also holds true for *BSD and other Open Source OSs; things > like MenuetOS, Open Solaris, etc, which most Linux enthusiasts ignore > altogether, living in their own little Linux world and fighting over > KDE vs. Gnome and Debian vs. Ubuntu vs. Fedora, Free Software vs. Open > Source, etc. > > I use and love Linux on a daily basis, but also FBSD and MacOSX and > they are all great systems each with it's pros and cons, virtues and > flaws. And yes, it took me many years to abandon zealotry and discover > a broader and richer world in Free Software _and_ Open Source. > > Best, > > -- > Alejandro Imass > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 17:15:49 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:15:49 -0500 Subject: Question about FBSD (was: Ubuntu first time) In-Reply-To: <1326215349.85911.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1326215349.85911.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:09 PM, William Park wrote: > Ok, question about FBSD.? Can someone explain to me the partition layout of FBSD?? I can't install it into a logical partition.? It has to be a primary.? It then slices it into something resembling LVM which I don't use because I can't remember their command line arguments. This is explained fairly satisfactorily in the documentation. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-pre.html -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 17:22:34 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:22:34 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:51:15AM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: > I think this is a very myopic statement and shows that the Linux > crowd needs to get out more, especially so in the Debian crowd. > > Let me just point out *some* differences between FBSD and Linux. And > again, I'm not saying that Linux is bad, but since you have made it a > habit to throw careless FUD everywhere it is necessary to point just > some benefits of FBSD: > > 1) For starters, Linux's overly-optimistic vm is really crappy for > high-load systems and no matter how you tweak it you will never get > the high-load stability of a FBSD kernel. At least not to date. A > simple example, just push linux to near exhaustion of swap and: > *boom*, you will need to eventually reboot as it never recovers > completely. The over optimistic vm is a well known problem in the > Linux Kernel, and _any one_ can try this at home with ab or httperf > with a 2.6.x. Linux kernel running a memory hungry multi-threaded > Apache application. Linux's overly optimistic VM can be made not optimistic at all. > 2) Another problem with Linux is the mixing of base system and > applications. In *BSD there is a clear-cut separation between the base > system and the application world, making it not only extremely secure, > but very stable in upgrades. You can upgrade apps and system > practically independent from each other. This could easily be done by > any Linux distro, but none to date have. Sometimes you do add features to the kernel and then the system libraries have to be updated before you can use it. As long as your library interface is well designed, this doesn't force you to update any applications, they just won't have any way to use the new feature until they are updated. > 3) FBSD Jails: There is nothing like this in the Linux world to date, > and it's a shame because it would be so easy as is nothing more than a > sophisticated chroot environment. Jails amongst other things (like > pseudo-virtualization without overhead) allows you to further separate > base system from running services with so-called "service jails" Those are a neat idea. Not that I have ever had a need for anything like it, but they are neat. I think many people use virtual machines instead, which is certainly perhasp overkill in comparison. > 4) The ports/package system. One thing that is superior IMO with the > FBSD posrts system is the way they are able to use packages directly > from source and use a very clever patching mechanism, which is a > *light* modification to the original package.This makes it relatively > easy to use the newest versions of the source paakcges. Debian, on the > other hand (and may other a Linux distro) , tend to modify packages > extensively to make them *their way* and this is not only inefficient > and resource intensive, but brings forth may problems and goes against > common-sense and cost-effective maintainability. I hate the ports system. It is what I think is wrong with Gentoo too. Why the heck should every person be grabbing things from source when the same binary could have been generated once already. It is inefficient waste of resources. Compiling from source should be a last resort, not the norm. Debian tries to avoid modifying packages when possible, but meeting the FHS is a requirement and sometimes requries modifying the package if upstream's makefiles are that badly done. Sometimes there are bugs to fix and while waiting for upstream would be nice, sometimes that can take a long time. They do try to get the patches accepted upstream though. > These are only scratching the surface. The point here is not saying > that FBSD is better than Linux because they each serve a purpose and > should be respected for that. Linux may be great for some applications > but that also holds true for *BSD and other Open Source OSs; things > like MenuetOS, Open Solaris, etc, which most Linux enthusiasts ignore > altogether, living in their own little Linux world and fighting over > KDE vs. Gnome and Debian vs. Ubuntu vs. Fedora, Free Software vs. Open > Source, etc. Once upon a time there was a system to allow Linux to run BSD binaries. Back then BSD was relevant and hence that was useful. Now it is the other way around. > I use and love Linux on a daily basis, but also FBSD and MacOSX and > they are all great systems each with it's pros and cons, virtues and > flaws. And yes, it took me many years to abandon zealotry and discover > a broader and richer world in Free Software _and_ Open Source. I did see recently that one of the BSDs now supports 64cpu machines. I wonder if they have heard of USB 3 yet. I know Linux handles 4096 CPUs these days and has for a few years. So I will give you Jails are neat, but the rest are either irrelevant or wrong. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 18:02:04 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:02:04 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120110172234.GN27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:51:15AM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> I think this is a very ?myopic statement and shows that the Linux >> crowd needs to get out more, especially so in the Debian crowd. >> >> Let me just point out *some* differences between FBSD and Linux. And >> again, I'm not saying that Linux is bad, but since you have made it a >> habit to throw careless FUD everywhere it is necessary to point just >> some benefits of FBSD: >> >> 1) For starters, Linux's overly-optimistic vm is really crappy for >> high-load systems and no matter how you tweak it you will never get >> the high-load stability of a FBSD kernel. At least not to date. A >> simple example, just push linux to near exhaustion of swap and: >> *boom*, you will need to eventually reboot as it never recovers >> completely. The over optimistic vm is a well known problem in the >> Linux Kernel, and _any one_ can try this at home with ab or httperf >> with a 2.6.x. Linux kernel running a memory hungry multi-threaded >> Apache application. > > Linux's overly optimistic VM can be made not optimistic at all. Kind of in keeping with tonight's talk topic... There are "truths" whose value has depreciated. Linux has had some habits of being overoptimistic about memory allocation, which does, indeed, behave badly as described. But, of course, you're not *forced* to be so overoptimistic. >> 2) Another problem with Linux is the mixing of base system and >> applications. In *BSD there is a clear-cut separation between the base >> system and the application world, making it not only extremely secure, >> but very stable in upgrades. You can upgrade apps and system >> practically independent from each other. This could easily be done by >> any Linux distro, but none to date have. > > Sometimes you do add features to the kernel and then the system libraries > have to be updated before you can use it. ?As long as your library > interface is well designed, this doesn't force you to update any > applications, they just won't have any way to use the new feature until > they are updated. Well, I'd count this as a place where BSDs and Linux make somewhat different choices as to where the separation takes place. The "BSD way" is for the 'system' to be inclusive of kernel + system libraries. The "Linux way" doesn't really have a notion of a 'system'; the kernel is quite separate from everything else. A few years ago, I considered that to be rather unfortunate, but the strict separation has actually gotten used for real things, and people doing embedded systems, which clearly includes mobile platforms such as Android, have gotten some milage out of the strict separation. >> 3) FBSD Jails: There is nothing like this in the Linux world to date, >> and it's a shame because it would be so easy as is nothing more than a >> sophisticated chroot environment. Jails amongst other things (like >> pseudo-virtualization without overhead) allows you to further separate >> base system from running services with so-called "service jails" > > Those are a neat idea. ?Not that I have ever had a need for anything like > it, but they are neat. ?I think many people use virtual machines instead, > which is certainly perhasp overkill in comparison. It's not true that "there is nothing like this in the Linux world to date"; there appear to be several implementations of Jails on Linux. They mightn't be as featureful as the FreeBSD implementation, but to say "there is nothing like this" is simply untrue. http://olivier.sessink.nl/jailkit/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/linuxjail/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/jail/ I haven't enough familiarity to know which of these are still usable; some may suffer from code rot. VMs seem to be more usable than jails; the fact that the whole "bundle of system" gets embedded into a single ball of mud (e.g. - a VM image) seems to be an enormously useful thing that doesn't seem to have a Jail analogy. But I suppose that if things had occurred somewhat differently, and jails had become the favoured virtualization mechanism, we'd probably have seen tooling emerge to make that very easy. But I'm not surprised that VMs have dominated. They offer a solution to the "I've got a Whole System I need to emulate, and I don't have the time to figure out what are the tiny bits that I *actually* need. So I'll just throw the whole ball of mud into a VM image. After all, disk space is cheaper than analyst time" problem. >> 4) The ports/package system. One thing that is superior IMO with the >> FBSD posrts system is the way they are able to use packages directly >> from source and use a very clever patching mechanism, which is a >> *light* modification to the original package.This makes it relatively >> easy to use the newest versions of the source paakcges. Debian, on the >> other hand (and may other a Linux distro) ?, tend to modify packages >> extensively to make them *their way* and this is not only inefficient >> and resource intensive, but brings forth may problems and goes against >> common-sense and cost-effective maintainability. > > I hate the ports system. ?It is what I think is wrong with Gentoo too. > Why the heck should every person be grabbing things from source when > the same binary could have been generated once already. ?It is inefficient > waste of resources. ?Compiling from source should be a last resort, > not the norm. > > Debian tries to avoid modifying packages when possible, but meeting the > FHS is a requirement and sometimes requries modifying the package if > upstream's makefiles are that badly done. ?Sometimes there are bugs to > fix and while waiting for upstream would be nice, sometimes that can > take a long time. ?They do try to get the patches accepted upstream > though. The notion that Ports involves materially less modification to the original packages than is involved with Debian or RPM packaging seems likely to be a mirage. And in practice, people use pkgadd rather a lot on *BSD, which heads more down the "dpkg" route... >> These are only scratching the surface. The point here is not saying >> that FBSD is better than Linux because they each serve a purpose and >> should be respected for that. Linux may be great for some applications >> but that also holds true for *BSD and other Open Source OSs; things >> like MenuetOS, Open Solaris, etc, which most Linux enthusiasts ignore >> altogether, living in their own little Linux world and fighting over >> KDE vs. Gnome and Debian vs. Ubuntu vs. Fedora, Free Software vs. Open >> Source, etc. > > Once upon a time there was a system to allow Linux to run BSD binaries. > Back then BSD was relevant and hence that was useful. ?Now it is the > other way around. > >> I use and love Linux on a daily basis, but also FBSD and MacOSX and >> they are all great systems each with it's pros and cons, virtues and >> flaws. And yes, it took me many years to abandon zealotry and discover >> a broader and richer world in Free Software _and_ Open Source. > > I did see recently that one of the BSDs now supports 64cpu machines. > I wonder if they have heard of USB 3 yet. ?I know Linux handles 4096 > CPUs these days and has for a few years. Oh, come on. Sometimes Linux supports some hardware sooner than FreeBSD, and sometimes hardware is supported first by NetBSD or FreeBSD. As for machines with extraordinary numbers of CPUs, those tend to be custom built things that are dramatically overpriced the day that they're built, as they have to have weird custom memory and CPU buses that deviate from what's typical and cheap. Hardly anyone remembers Sequent :-). -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 18:07:00 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:07:00 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120110172234.GN27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:51:15AM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> I think this is a very ?myopic statement and shows that the Linux >> crowd needs to get out more, especially so in the Debian crowd. >> [...] > Linux's overly optimistic VM can be made not optimistic at all. > Yeah set it to ==2, been there, done that. And then you get no memory for doing almost anything. Try running Apache that way. Try it, and _then_ tell me it's a viable option for the vm. That doesn't cut it for a modern OS, you need some optimism but you also need to deal with peak loads and Linux does not. At least not in 2.6 [...] > Sometimes you do add features to the kernel and then the system libraries > have to be updated before you can use it. ?As long as your library > interface is well designed, this doesn't force you to update any > applications, they just won't have any way to use the new feature until > they are updated. > This is *totally* unprecise because in Linux they both live practically in the same directories. Go ahead and upgrade libc or even gcc. There is no separation between system and applications in Linux. In *BSD even the compiler is specific to the base system, so they are completely separated. Why doesn't any Linux distro follow this beats me, but it should. [...] > I hate the ports system. ?It is what I think is wrong with Gentoo too. > Why the heck should every person be grabbing things from source when > the same binary could have been generated once already. ?It is inefficient > waste of resources. ?Compiling from source should be a last resort, > not the norm. > Yeah but you forget to mention that *BSD offers binary packages as well and these derive directly from ports. They both hit the same database so you can install from ports, and delete via package commands and vice-versa. Even CPAN in FBSD registers to the same packages DB so everything is in sync. Oh that's another problem in Debian I forgot to mention "the Debian Perl policiy". > Debian tries to avoid modifying packages when possible, but meeting the > FHS is a requirement and sometimes requries modifying the package if > upstream's makefiles are that badly done. ?Sometimes there are bugs to > fix and while waiting for upstream would be nice, sometimes that can > take a long time. ?They do try to get the patches accepted upstream > though. Hmm, really? To mee it seems the other way around, or at minimum it goes both ways. As a simple example, how long does it take for Debian to incorporate a new Sane scanner driver? AGES! It's not uncommon for upstream developers to complain on how it takes for upgrades to reach the Debian repos, so the overall feeling *out there* is the _opposite_ of what you are conveying. [...] > > Once upon a time there was a system to allow Linux to run BSD binaries. > Back then BSD was relevant and hence that was useful. ?Now it is the > other way around. > Hmm, I think you are confused with Linuxator which allows native Linux code to run on FBSD. If FreeBSD is so outdated, why does it still run over 50% of the Web? http://freebsdfoundation.blogspot.com/2011/12/apache-software-foundation-testimonial.html http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2011/ http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2011/03/01/most-reliable-hosting-company-sites-in-february-2011.html > I did see recently that one of the BSDs now supports 64cpu machines. > I wonder if they have heard of USB 3 yet. ?I know Linux handles 4096 > CPUs these days and has for a few years. > It's about solving _real_ problems not imaginary ones. Anyway, the point of all this is not to start a FBSD vs. Linux flame, it's to point out that you can't just be throwing FUD all over the place without asserting the facts. Especially when you are going to create FUD on other Open Source projects. Just to be clear, I *love* Linux, for some things at least. But I *love* FreeBSD and other Open Source as well, not just Free Software. Man, more and more I get to understand the saying "Linux is for people that hate Windows and FreeBSD is for people that love Unix". Though, lately it seems that Debian GNU/Linux is for people that hate anything else! -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 18:35:42 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:35:42 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F0C84FE.7070201@utoronto.ca> On 1/10/2012 1:07 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: > Just to be clear, I *love* Linux, for some things at least. But I > *love* FreeBSD and other Open Source as well, not just Free Software. > > Man, more and more I get to understand the saying "Linux is for people > that hate Windows and FreeBSD is for people that love Unix". Though, > lately it seems that Debian GNU/Linux is for people that hate anything > else! You can't take one or two people from this list who are strongly opinionated about Debian and generalize to all Debian users. Most are silent and just go about using the OS. In the right hands, almost any OS is going to do the job. I for one think everyone should give OpenIndiana a shot for a week and forget about Linux and FreeBSD zealotry. You get ZFS, which when used for backend container storage means a completely isolated container (like Jails, or LXC) only take a few MB of disk space. Joyent also ported KVM to OpenIndiana for those wanting full virtualization. Quite the feat given KVM is Linux kernel specific. At the moment it only works with Intel processors, but an AMD update is in the works. Seriously, boot up a VM version and give it a shot. Also, Gnome 2.x for those who fall into that camp, but there's a KDE 4 repository available as well. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 18:50:00 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:50:00 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:51:15AM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>> I think this is a very ?myopic statement and shows that the Linux >>> crowd needs to get out more, especially so in the Debian crowd. [...] > Kind of in keeping with tonight's talk topic... > > There are "truths" whose value has depreciated. > > Linux has had some habits of being overoptimistic about memory > allocation, which does, indeed, behave badly as described. > > But, of course, you're not *forced* to be so overoptimistic. > > True but not applicable to *all* scenarios, PRECISELY my point on that Linux is great for many things, but just because it is, people should not go out minimizing other great Open Source OSs, _especially_ when ignoring your own weaknesses. The point is you don't go near the fire if your tail is made of straw. [...] > Well, I'd count this as a place where BSDs and Linux make somewhat > different choices as to where the separation takes place. > > The "BSD way" is for the 'system' to be inclusive of kernel + system libraries. > > The "Linux way" doesn't really have a notion of a 'system'; the kernel > is quite separate from everything else. > Awesome way to put it. > A few years ago, I considered that to be rather unfortunate, but the > strict separation has actually gotten used for real things, and people > doing embedded systems, which clearly includes mobile platforms such > as Android, have gotten some milage out of the strict separation. > Again, there are places where Linux excels, and Debian as well. For example I would Debian Linux on most pseudo-embeded systems (e.g. Pico ITX and alike), but probably not so much so for smaller hw. [...] > It's not true that "there is nothing like this in the Linux world to > date"; there appear to be several implementations of Jails on Linux. > They mightn't be as featureful as the FreeBSD implementation, but to > say "there is nothing like this" is simply untrue. > > http://olivier.sessink.nl/jailkit/ > http://sourceforge.net/projects/linuxjail/ > http://sourceforge.net/projects/jail/ > True for the advanced chroot part, but these implementations would also require that the kernel is jail-aware. So I think my statement still holds true because I haven't come across a distro that implemented jails and kernel being jail-aware for true pseudo-virtualization (yeah it sound strange, but I think you know what I mean). > VMs seem to be more usable than jails; the fact that the whole "bundle > of system" gets embedded into a single ball of mud (e.g. - a VM image) > seems to be an enormously useful thing that doesn't seem to have a > Jail analogy. > Yes and no, again, it depends. Slicing the server into service jails is an application of jails that has nothing to do with virtualization in that sense. It's more about more granular control, security, performance and maintainability. To give you an example, on _my_ FBSD servers Apache runs on a Jail and reverse proxies to the application apaches sitting on other jails. In other words, our Web2Project system along with other php52 apps run in a production jail that is fined tuned to php52, while our php53 stuff runs in a specific php53 jail. I also have jail flavors (I use EzJail), so for example I can create a Perl/Catalyst 5.8 environment with Perl 5.10 in about 5 minutes, and run it side by side with a Catalyst 5.9 with Perl 5.12. They all see the internet through a main Apache reverse proxy running on another jail. Even the MTA sits in it's own jail, so the base system has never even compiled a single package, making it extremely secure. Now, I would *love* to do that with Linux, and diversify my Internet servers but I can't. Today it's simply not possible. > But I suppose that if things had occurred somewhat differently, and > jails had become the favoured virtualization mechanism, we'd probably > have seen tooling emerge to make that very easy. > Yeah, EzJail > But I'm not surprised that VMs have dominated. ?They offer a solution > to the "I've got a Whole System I need to emulate, and I don't have > the time to figure out what are the tiny bits that I *actually* need. > So I'll just throw the whole ball of mud into a VM image. ?After all, > disk space is cheaper than analyst time" problem. > Could be, but YMMV in our case we take great care to use our hardware as efficiently as possible because we simply can't afford hundreds of servers. With just some quad cores I am able to pack much more on a single server that I would with Linux, and _without_ experiencing problems with updates. I think everyone here should rememeber the php52 to 53 fiasco. It happened to me but never again, so my use of Jails is not so much VM as I pointed out above. [...] > The notion that Ports involves materially less modification to the > original packages than is involved with Debian or RPM packaging seems > likely to be a mirage. > A valid matter of opinion, yet _IMO_ the posrt/patches system is more elegant and you can see much less mods in the resulting software. Just take Apache 2, PostgreSQL or MySQL on Debian for example. Same goes for example for RedHat's "services". > And in practice, people use pkgadd rather a lot on *BSD, which heads > more down the "dpkg" route... > Yes, but they are based on ports with the default make options. [...] >> I did see recently that one of the BSDs now supports 64cpu machines. >> I wonder if they have heard of USB 3 yet. ?I know Linux handles 4096 >> CPUs these days and has for a few years. > Note that _is not_ my commentary above. I completely agree with your point of view bellow: > Oh, come on. > > Sometimes Linux supports some hardware sooner than FreeBSD, and > sometimes hardware is supported first by NetBSD or FreeBSD. > > As for machines with extraordinary numbers of CPUs, those tend to be > custom built things that are dramatically overpriced the day that > they're built, as they have to have weird custom memory and CPU buses > that deviate from what's typical and cheap. > > Hardly anyone remembers Sequent :-). > -- Great un-passionate discussion. Thank you! Cheers, -- Alejandro -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 19:05:02 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:05:02 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4F0C84FE.7070201-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C84FE.7070201@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 1/10/2012 1:07 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> Just to be clear, I *love* Linux, for some things at least. But I >> *love* FreeBSD and other Open Source as well, not just Free Software. >> >> Man, more and more I get to understand the saying "Linux is for people >> that hate Windows and FreeBSD is for people that love Unix". Though, >> lately it seems that Debian GNU/Linux is for people that hate anything >> else! > > You can't take one or two people from this list who are strongly > opinionated about Debian and generalize to all Debian users. Most are > silent and just go about using the OS. In the right hands, almost any OS > is going to do the job. > Thanks for pointing this out and I must apologize if I offended any other Debian users, especially being a Debian user myself. I recognize my previous comments on Debianites were prejudicious and I too fell into the passionate trap, but it really annoys me when people put other stuff down with a myopic view, and this I have found very typical of many a Debian folk, nevertheless it's unfair to judge all Debian users. > I for one think everyone should give OpenIndiana a shot for a week and > forget about Linux and FreeBSD zealotry. You get ZFS, which when used Looks very interesting indeed, will give a shot later in the year! I'm not a big fan of ZFS though. Perhaps, this supports my basic underlying argument in this thread and that is to aggregate, not segregate. Thanks! -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 19:12:58 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:12:58 -0500 Subject: ZFS (was Ubuntu first time) In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C84FE.7070201@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4F0C8DBA.702@utoronto.ca> On 1/10/2012 2:05 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: > Thanks for pointing this out and I must apologize if I offended any > other Debian users, especially being a Debian user myself. > I recognize my previous comments on Debianites were prejudicious and I > too fell into the passionate trap, but it really annoys me when people > put other stuff down with a myopic view, and this I have found very > typical of many a Debian folk, nevertheless it's unfair to judge all > Debian users. > >> I for one think everyone should give OpenIndiana a shot for a week and >> forget about Linux and FreeBSD zealotry. You get ZFS, which when used > > Looks very interesting indeed, will give a shot later in the year! I'm > not a big fan of ZFS though. Now that I find curious. Is this based on experience using the FreeBSD port? That lags behind Solaris/OpenIndiana by a fair number of releases. For example, I don't think the current FreeBSD version has built in deduplication, whereas that has been available for quite some time now using a Solaris based (Illumos kernel) version. > Perhaps, this supports my basic underlying argument in this thread and > that is to aggregate, not segregate. If you've got Apaches falling over under load, I'd segregate the front-end functionality and stick an nGinx or Varnish in front of your backend servers to handle the load :P Sidenote: I think you might find containers in Solaris, or LXC which is progressing quite rapidly in Linux, are very well suited to the variety and separation of application stacks that you outlined in a previous message. Cheers, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 19:34:58 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:34:58 -0500 Subject: ZFS (was Ubuntu first time) In-Reply-To: <4F0C8DBA.702-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C84FE.7070201@utoronto.ca> <4F0C8DBA.702@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 1/10/2012 2:05 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> Thanks for pointing this out and I must apologize if I offended any >> other Debian users, especially being a Debian user myself. [...] > Now that I find curious. Is this based on experience using the FreeBSD > port? That lags behind Solaris/OpenIndiana by a fair number of releases. Yep. Very, very bad experience with ZFS one of the first FBSD ports I tried, well with RAID-z actually. It never truly recovered and was left in a continuous loop of fix and fall back to error mode, time and time again. I found the whole thing just *too easy* to be true and it my experience it was. I doubt it had to do with the FBSD port because it seemed like a RAID-z issue I found on several forums and mailing lists at the time, on Open Solaris even. Another problem I remember had to do with hanging on large disk copies 500GB and above it would just hang the whole system in the middle. This failure was related to the FBSD port as I recall. Of course, one bad experience is not enough to judge the fs but I haven't had time to play around with it anymore so I just cautiously stated "I'm not a big fan", but haven't said it sucks because a lot of people use it successfully and are *very* happy. Guess I'll just have to give it another go someday. > For example, I don't think the current FreeBSD version has built in > deduplication, whereas that has been available for quite some time now > using a Solaris based (Illumos kernel) version. > Yeah, again this was one of the very first stable ports on FBSD but never tried it again. As stated, a lot of FBSD folks seem to be using it and seem *very* happy. >> Perhaps, this supports my basic underlying argument in this thread and >> that is to aggregate, not segregate. > > If you've got Apaches falling over under load, I'd segregate the > front-end functionality and stick an nGinx or Varnish in front of your > backend servers to handle the load :P > Yeah well, I *had* them failing under load before we migrated to FBSD. I have been thinking of replacing Apache for my main proxy servers though, and nGinx has been in my radar for a while but not so much Varnish. Will give the latter a another look though. > Sidenote: I think you might find containers in Solaris, or LXC which is > progressing quite rapidly in Linux, are very well suited to the variety > and separation of application stacks that you outlined in a previous > message. > Wow. I was completely ignorant on LXC, will definitively look into that!!! Thanks! -- Alejandro -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 20:02:08 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:02:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4F0C84FE.7070201-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C84FE.7070201@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1326225728.30242.YahooMailNeo@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Ok, I'll give it a spin.? But, "server" and "desktop" version?? Where is "everything" version?? God, I'm already pissed off...? too much coffee, I guess. -- William > From: Jamon Camisso > >I for one think everyone should give OpenIndiana a shot for a week and >forget about Linux and FreeBSD zealotry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 20:08:26 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:08:26 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Alejandro Imass wrote: > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Lennart Sorensen >>> wrote: >>>> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 02:41:13PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: > [...] > >> That's EXACTLY LENNART'S POINT. That _never happens_ with Debian. >> Ever. But as you yourself say, it does happen with Ubuntu. A lot. >> > > It does happen with Debian also and just saying it doesn't mean it's > true. You post is typical Debianite zealotry that ultimately leads to > errors like the ssh scandal, which you seem to have deliberately > ignored in my last post. They do happen in Debian, *very publicly and > shamefully so* - it was Debian stable, so don't say they don't happen > "Ever", because it undermines the credibility of your whole post. > > I can understand why Debianites are pissed off at Ubuntu but it > doesn't justify creating FUD on it, on ANY Linux distro for that > matter. I don't care about Ubuntu at all. You claim that it is more usable than Debian Unstable, I am merely asking you to back that up with facts. Don't get all upset about it, just answer the question. >>> Same thing we've done since we started using it circa Ubuntu 5.04 >> >> Wow, that sounds like amazing fun. Why not just load Debian and never >> have to even worry if some or other release of Ubuntu is going to be, >> as YOU describe it, 'somewhat broken'? >> > > I don't install _any_ software on it's point o version. In Ubuntu it > seems they have adopted Microsoft's approach to client beta testing > but at least they don't charge people for it. The .10 versions seem to > be quite stable, and people should wait for those. > > [...] > >> How _exactly_ is Debian Unstable 'unusable' (I'm assuming that's the >> word you meant)? >> > > [...] > >> >> You mean like 'Debian Unstable is unusable'? >> > > Oh my god! I have a typo, please spare my life! > > If you are a Debian user you know for a fact that Debian unstable is > so quirky it makes it unusable, un-usable, not-usable, or whatever you > wanna call it, like it's very name: unstable and hardly good for any > practical use. No, I don't know that at all, you just keep saying it. Can you give me an example, other than the one that everyone seems to be repeating about sshd? The name 'Unstable' has absolutely nothing to do with its performance. An experienced user would know that. > "Testing" is quite good and probably the best choice for doing > anything on the desktop that requires some relatively new version of > anything. Stable is great for servers yet the packaging is so old it > can be challenging sometimes to get things done and you may wind up > compiling many things from source. > > Debian is a great OS, but so is Ubuntu and it's unfair to create this > FUD just because YOU think Debian is awesome and Ubuntu is crap, > because it's not. Uh, try again. YOU said Debian Unstable was 'unusable'. I'm asking you to simply back that up with some facts, since that and the sshd thing are your entire argument for using Ubuntu. > They satisfy different needs and to solve real-world problems, and so do the other Linux distros, and non Linux OSes as well. > > -- > Alejandro Imass > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 20:27:54 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:27:54 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <1326225728.30242.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3NeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C84FE.7070201@utoronto.ca> <1326225728.30242.YahooMailNe o@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F0C9F4A.9020501@utoronto.ca> On 1/10/2012 3:02 PM, William Park wrote: > Ok, I'll give it a spin. But, "server" and "desktop" version? Where is "everything" version? God, I'm already pissed off... too much coffee, I guess. Desktop includes server, it just adds Gnome and X on top of the base packages. Firefox and Thunderbird 9 are available here: http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/latest/contrib/solaris_pkgadd/ http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/thunderbird/releases/latest/contrib/solaris_pkgadd/ Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 20:29:34 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:29:34 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> You mean like 'Debian Unstable is unusable'? >> > > Oh my god! I have a typo, please spare my life! > > If you are a Debian user you know for a fact that Debian unstable is > so quirky it makes it unusable, un-usable, not-usable, or whatever you > wanna call it, like it's very name: unstable and hardly good for any > practical use. What? Debian unstable hasn't been visibly unstable in *years*. I recall the days of the "Perl problem," when some bleeding edged Perl bits got pushed out more quickly than they ought to have been, but I think that was well back into the 1990s. (e.g. - MORE THAN 10 YEARS AGO.) I have found the converse to be true, that Debian unstable is hardly ever quirky. > "Testing" is quite good and probably the best choice for doing > anything on the desktop that requires some relatively new version of > anything. Stable is great for servers yet the packaging is so old it > can be challenging sometimes to get things done and you may wind up > compiling many things from source. One might wind up compiling from source, but that's quite likely to be a mistake in comparison with dropping an extra entry or two into /etc/apt/sources.list along with some preferences in /etc/apt/preferences.d/simple so that you generally favor Stable over Testing over Unstable over Experimental. If you are compiling many things from source, then you're fighting against the packaging system rather ferociously, and that is rather suggestive of using the system badly. It is equivalent to... - Writing FORTH programs that have more code grinding thru stack manipulations than doing Real Work - Writing Lisp programs that spend most of their code on list manipulations rather than doing Real Work. - Writing Scheme programs where most of the code is spent building tail recursions and/or continuations rather than... If you have to "defeat" the packaging system rather than using it, then chances are that you're in a losing battle. > Debian is a great OS, but so is Ubuntu and it's unfair to create this > FUD just because YOU think Debian is awesome and Ubuntu is crap, > because it's not. They satisfy different needs and to solve real-world > problems, and so do the other Linux distros, and non Linux OSes as > well. Well, Ubuntu deserves a certain bit of "bashing;" it has taken some different choices as to the preferences used to construct it, and those preferences are not undeserving of criticism. They have made some rather controversial choices that initiate a pretty substantial risk that they're leaping off cliffs into destruction. To some, the potentially-suicidal choices may seem a fine thing. "When the dust clears, we'll still be running Debian..." -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 21:15:26 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:15:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120110172234.GN27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | I hate the ports system. It is what I think is wrong with Gentoo too. | Why the heck should every person be grabbing things from source when | the same binary could have been generated once already. It is inefficient | waste of resources. Compiling from source should be a last resort, | not the norm. Not to take away from your main point, but compiling from source ought to be a lot cheaper than it is. For some reason we've made our build systems ridiculously cumbersome. The autoconf etc. crap is one big culprit. Another is overly intricate header files. There are layers of this crud. The wizard Fabrice Bellard demonstrated some of this in his amazing TCCBOOT hack The original Pascal compiler didn't bother producing binaries since compiling was about as fast as loading binaries (circa 1970). But then it didn't have a good system for modular programs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 23:36:28 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:36:28 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120110233628.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 04:15:26PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Not to take away from your main point, but compiling from source ought > to be a lot cheaper than it is. For some reason we've made our build > systems ridiculously cumbersome. > > The autoconf etc. crap is one big culprit. Another is overly > intricate header files. There are layers of this crud. autoconf is quite a nightmare and seeing something spend 5 minutes running configure and then compiling 5 source files in 10 seconds is crazy. autoconf is also a nightmare for cross compiling. > The wizard Fabrice Bellard demonstrated some of this in his amazing > TCCBOOT hack > > > The original Pascal compiler didn't bother producing binaries since > compiling was about as fast as loading binaries (circa 1970). But > then it didn't have a good system for modular programs. So a tiny ancient kernel without modules can compile quickly on a fast machine. I don't see this being generally useful though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 10 23:44:54 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:44:54 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120110234454.GP27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 01:02:04PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > Oh, come on. > > Sometimes Linux supports some hardware sooner than FreeBSD, and > sometimes hardware is supported first by NetBSD or FreeBSD. > > As for machines with extraordinary numbers of CPUs, those tend to be > custom built things that are dramatically overpriced the day that > they're built, as they have to have weird custom memory and CPU buses > that deviate from what's typical and cheap. > > Hardly anyone remembers Sequent :-). When a laptop has 8 CPUs (well threads), and a fairly cheap server has 32, I don't see 64 as at all a reasonable limit. I wonder what the last time was any BSD supported a piece of hardware before Linux. It used to be true. My last use for BSD was netBSD on a decstation 5000 (mips little endian) which Linux did not support at the time (which was 1998). A couple of years later Linux did support the machine and was a whole lot more pleasant to install and work with. I suspect there just aren't that many people contributing to BSD anymore and Linux has way more. Also how anything can cantinue to default to (t)csh as the default shell is unbelievable. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 00:10:10 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:10:10 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120111001010.GQ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 01:07:00PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: > Yeah set it to ==2, been there, done that. And then you get no memory > for doing almost anything. Try running Apache that way. Try it, and > _then_ tell me it's a viable option for the vm. > > That doesn't cut it for a modern OS, you need some optimism but you > also need to deal with peak loads and Linux does not. At least not in > 2.6 Well clearly a lot of people are managing to run some rather heavy loads on Linux. Given the much more permissive license of the BSDs you would think companies would prefer to spend their time and effort there, but they don't. > This is *totally* unprecise because in Linux they both live > practically in the same directories. Go ahead and upgrade libc or even > gcc. There is no separation between system and applications in Linux. > In *BSD even the compiler is specific to the base system, so they are > completely separated. Why doesn't any Linux distro follow this beats > me, but it should. I have upgraded libc. Didn't affect anything else. I have upgraded gcc, again, didn't affect anything else. > Yeah but you forget to mention that *BSD offers binary packages as > well and these derive directly from ports. They both hit the same > database so you can install from ports, and delete via package > commands and vice-versa. Even CPAN in FBSD registers to the same > packages DB so everything is in sync. Oh that's another problem in > Debian I forgot to mention "the Debian Perl policiy". And Debian has source packages that I can tak and modify should I choose to do so, compile and install and it works fine too. > Hmm, really? To mee it seems the other way around, or at minimum it > goes both ways. As a simple example, how long does it take for Debian > to incorporate a new Sane scanner driver? AGES! It's not uncommon for > upstream developers to complain on how it takes for upgrades to reach > the Debian repos, so the overall feeling *out there* is the _opposite_ > of what you are conveying. Some package maintainers are faster than others at updating things. Maybe the sane package maintainer has other commitments too. No one is getting paid for this after all. > Hmm, I think you are confused with Linuxator which allows native Linux > code to run on FBSD. If FreeBSD is so outdated, why does it still run > over 50% of the Web? > > http://freebsdfoundation.blogspot.com/2011/12/apache-software-foundation-testimonial.html > http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2011/ > http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2011/03/01/most-reliable-hosting-company-sites-in-february-2011.html http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2012/01/01/most-reliable-hosting-company-sites-in-december-2011.html Interesting change. So the top 40 last month by their reliability measures (which certainly also involve network equipment outages and such) has 5 FreeBSD, 2 Win 2003, 5 Win 2008, 2 F5 BIG-IP (no idea what that is) and 28 Linux sites. I wish I could find a page there that lists how many sites run on what OS, not just which web server, but I couldn't find one. Innertia is hard to overcome too. If FreeBSD is _good_enough_ for hosting, why change if it works. Linux would have to be much better than FreeBSD to convince existing large scale users to change, not just equally good. > It's about solving _real_ problems not imaginary ones. Anyway, the > point of all this is not to start a FBSD vs. Linux flame, it's to > point out that you can't just be throwing FUD all over the place > without asserting the facts. Especially when you are going to create > FUD on other Open Source projects. > > Just to be clear, I *love* Linux, for some things at least. But I > *love* FreeBSD and other Open Source as well, not just Free Software. > > Man, more and more I get to understand the saying "Linux is for people > that hate Windows and FreeBSD is for people that love Unix". Though, > lately it seems that Debian GNU/Linux is for people that hate anything > else! I actually don't hate Windows or BSD, I just don't think there is much of anything that either is better at than Linux anymore. A lot of BSD users keep insisting that stuff that was true a decade ago must be true forever. I have used BSD back when there was a reason to. Now I no longer see one and the BSD user space I just find highly unpleasant to work withcompared to Debian and most other Linux distributions. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 01:42:22 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 20:42:22 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F0CE8FE.9050905@dinamis.com> On 01/10/2012 03:08 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > The name 'Unstable' has absolutely nothing to do with its performance. In that case, it's a very unfortunate choice of nomenclature. For the record, I only run Debian stable on production servers. I have tried to like Debian on my desktop but stable was too ancient and the fussy details of having a usable system, like having good-looking fonts, eluded me when I tried Debian but that was about five years ago when I had much less experience with Debian. I ran Mandriva for a long time and quite liked it but they seemed to lose their way. I eventually got to Kubuntu. It was OK, though there was more breakage than I liked with KDE. For KDE fans, it's not a great distro. I've ended up with Fedora running KDE and I'm quite happy with it. I might be happy with Debian unstable on my desktop, too, now that I'm much more comfortable with Debian. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 02:07:33 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:07:33 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120111001010.GQ27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120111001010.GQ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F0CEEE5.9020906@dinamis.com> On 01/10/2012 07:10 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I have upgraded libc. Didn't affect anything else. I have upgraded gcc, > again, didn't affect anything else. You just reminded me of a Gentoo horror story. It was around 2005 or 2006 that I tried Gentoo on a P3-850MHz ThinkPad that was getting long-in-the-tooth. Gentoo could supposedly be more efficient so I thought it could make that machine usable with the maximum of 512M of RAM that it had. It took days to build the system, KDE, OpenOffice, Firefox, etc. Shortly thereafter, there was a major change in glibc, which meant that first, the entire build toolchain had to be rebuilt and then everything else had to be rebuilt using the new toolchain. I remember that the build would bail out at various points and in Googling, I found some lengthy articles about how non-deterministic that particular scenario was. Many people had given up and just done a fresh install but there was no way that I was going to spend days fiddling around with my system periodically just to have a usable system. I gave up and realized that any advantages of Gentoo were illusory and looked at that whole sorry episode as a big waste of time. I'll take binary distros, thank you. CPU cycles are cheaper than my time and that's assuming the big if of whether Gentoo is in fact any faster. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 02:28:57 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:28:57 -0500 Subject: CMake vs autoconf Message-ID: <20120111022857.GA2576@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi all, I'm now trying out Razor-qt, essentially KDE-lite. It's okay. Kind of old FVWM with KDE icons and fonts. Anyways, Razor-qt is configured by cmake . instead of the more usual ./configure After that, you do make; make install but, looking at the Makefile, it's just frontend to "cmake". For user, I guess it doesn't matter whether it's CMake or autoconf. But, if anyone is writing build scripts, is it really easier? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 03:10:45 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:10:45 -0500 Subject: CMake vs autoconf In-Reply-To: <20120111022857.GA2576-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120111022857.GA2576@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F0CFDB5.9030509@utoronto.ca> On 1/10/2012 9:28 PM, William Park wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm now trying out Razor-qt, essentially KDE-lite. It's okay. Kind of > old FVWM with KDE icons and fonts. Anyways, Razor-qt is configured by > cmake . > instead of the more usual > ./configure > After that, you do > make; make install > but, looking at the Makefile, it's just frontend to "cmake". > > For user, I guess it doesn't matter whether it's CMake or autoconf. > But, if anyone is writing build scripts, is it really easier? CMake is fundamentally different in that it allows cross-platform configuration for a variety of compilers. Whereas autotools can generate makefiles for use with minGW on Windows, which also entails using Cygwin, CMake can generate a makefile for use with a variety of compilers on Linux, Windows, BSD, OSX, etc. So if you were stuck using Visual Studio, CMake can help you there. Another semi-direct competitor to CMake (if you want to call it competition) is SCons, which is a fundamentally different compilation system that relies on Python to figure out dependencies and call compilers. It too will work on Windows, as well as any POSIX compliant system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCons Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 13:38:11 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:38:11 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Thomas Milne >> wrote: >>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Lennart Sorensen >>>> wrote: >>>>> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 02:41:13PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> [...] >> [...] >> I can understand why Debianites are pissed off at Ubuntu but it >> doesn't justify creating FUD on it, on ANY Linux distro for that >> matter. > > I don't care about Ubuntu at all. You claim that it is more usable > than Debian Unstable, I am merely asking you to back that up with > facts. Don't get all upset about it, just answer the question. > First of all I am not upset, and don't turn this around on me. If you read back on the thread you will realize the point here is my objection on your unfair criticism on Ubuntu and the position that Debian is the greatest thing ever. You can criticize the choices made by Ubuntu but you shouldn't dismiss it as a piece of crap. To answer your question is very simple: As a business, I would not use Debian unstable on a typical workstation because of the support costs associated with it, but I would (and do) use Ubuntu because the support resources are vast and my employees can usually solve problems on their own. On the contrary, when using Debian unstable you are basically on your own, an this goes not only for Debian, but also when using _any_ unstable version of anything, including FreeBSD or any other. For unstable versions, it is expected from the communities that you are hacking your way through with the bleeding edge and you can't (and shouldn't) expect a great level of support. On the contrary, it is expected that you contribute by finding, reporting and perhaps fixing the bugs. This is fine, and perhaps exciting, if you are an experienced hacker, but it's not when that's not your business objective. In that sense, Debian unstable "is hardly good for any practical use" other than being used by an expert-level user, and in that sense Ubuntu is superior than Debian unstable. It's better for business, period. And that is __exactly__ what I said. Now on the other hand, if I'm going to deploy a few dozen appliances and I need long-term reliability I wouldn't use Ubuntu but rather Debian stable and in this case Debian is better for business. So whether one or the other is "good" or not depends very much on the application. The whole point I've been trying to convey is that each one has it's pros and cons and it's unfair to bash against one just because you don't like it. I would do the same if someone comes here and implies that Debian or any other distro or Open Source OS is a piece of crap. Hope this answers your question. -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 14:12:24 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:12:24 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4F0CE8FE.9050905-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0CE8FE.9050905@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20120111141224.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 08:42:22PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > In that case, it's a very unfortunate choice of nomenclature. For > the record, I only run Debian stable on production servers. I have > tried to like Debian on my desktop but stable was too ancient and > the fussy details of having a usable system, like having > good-looking fonts, eluded me when I tried Debian but that was about > five years ago when I had much less experience with Debian. I ran > Mandriva for a long time and quite liked it but they seemed to lose > their way. I eventually got to Kubuntu. It was OK, though there was > more breakage than I liked with KDE. For KDE fans, it's not a great > distro. I've ended up with Fedora running KDE and I'm quite happy > with it. I might be happy with Debian unstable on my desktop, too, > now that I'm much more comfortable with Debian. The naming could probably have been chosen better. In the stable release the idea is that things don't change. Security updates happen but package versions should be stable unless there is a very good reason a security update should involve a new version (it does occationally happen). In unstable, packages change versions all the time. This doesn't mean the new packages are unstable, and in fact the idea of course is that they should not be. If they were it would make life difficult for all other developers. For things that are unsure, there is experimental which is where packages go that need some testing and hence are not necesarily safe to put in unstable yet. testing is the area for the next stable release. Packages don't go there directly (except as exceptions during the freeze before release to fix bugs without upgrading the version which the freeze is not supposed to allow doing). Normally packages go there automatically after something like two weeks of being in unstable without any serious bugs filed against them, and if moving them to testing doesn't break installing other packages in any obvious way (this does still occationally happen unfortunately during major transitions to new versions of gnome or kde or perl. The CUT idea is to make a testing that is more manually updated to avoid such occational breaks in testing for installing some packages). I personally run my desktop machines at home and work on unstable, as well as my mythtv box (which I consider rather important, although I think my wife considers it more important than me). Servers at work run stable. Some people run their workstations on stable, some use testing. Not sure if anyone other than me runs unstable. None of these really ever seem to have any issues (except the couple that have ATI graphics cards. Those seem to break every upgrade. I think we replaced the video cards in those by now though). The router I develop software for is based on stable with a few packages being newer versions. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 14:13:05 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:13:05 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Alejandro Imass wrote: [...] >> If you are a Debian user you know for a fact that Debian unstable is >> so quirky it makes it unusable, un-usable, not-usable, or whatever you >> wanna call it, like it's very name: unstable and hardly good for any >> practical use. > > What? > > Debian unstable hasn't been visibly unstable in *years*. [...] > I have found the converse to be true, that Debian unstable is hardly > ever quirky. > In the context of the complete note, my point is in the practical use, as in "day to day" use by non hacker users. Perhaps the "so quirky" was unnecessary noise to the argument I was making of practical use. The point is simple: if I have to choose between Ubuntu and Debian unstable, to get a relatively up to date set of applications, I will choose Ubuntu. Depending on the specific scenario, I might use Debian stable with backports, but the truth of the matter is that business is practical, so Ubuntu is usually the most cost-effective choice. [...] > One might wind up compiling from source, but that's quite likely to be > a mistake in comparison with dropping an extra entry or two into > /etc/apt/sources.list along with some preferences in > /etc/apt/preferences.d/simple so that you generally favor Stable over > Testing over Unstable over Experimental. > Yes. Backports and apt-pinning are always an option in cases where you need the stability/security of Debian but require some bleeding edge version of a package. Yet, this _does not_ fall under practical use as it requires rather specialized resources. [...] > Well, Ubuntu deserves a certain bit of "bashing;" it has taken some > different choices as to the preferences used to construct it, and > those preferences are not undeserving of criticism. > True. But it should be objective and preferably from the perspective of real-world issues, not imaginary ones. > They have made some rather controversial choices that initiate a > pretty substantial risk that they're leaping off cliffs into > destruction. ?To some, the potentially-suicidal choices may seem a > fine thing. ?"When the dust clears, we'll still be running Debian..." Yeah, I don't doubt that _you_ will ;-) -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 14:21:54 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:21:54 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120111142154.GS27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 08:38:11AM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: > First of all I am not upset, and don't turn this around on me. If you > read back on the thread you will realize the point here is my > objection on your unfair criticism on Ubuntu and the position that > Debian is the greatest thing ever. You can criticize the choices made > by Ubuntu but you shouldn't dismiss it as a piece of crap. > > To answer your question is very simple: As a business, I would not use > Debian unstable on a typical workstation because of the support costs > associated with it, but I would (and do) use Ubuntu because the > support resources are vast and my employees can usually solve problems > on their own. > > On the contrary, when using Debian unstable you are basically on your > own, an this goes not only for Debian, but also when using _any_ > unstable version of anything, including FreeBSD or any other. For > unstable versions, it is expected from the communities that you are > hacking your way through with the bleeding edge and you can't (and > shouldn't) expect a great level of support. On the contrary, it is > expected that you contribute by finding, reporting and perhaps fixing > the bugs. This is fine, and perhaps exciting, if you are an > experienced hacker, but it's not when that's not your business > objective. I find the support of Debian's mailing lists excellent, and hence not a problem for running unstable. > In that sense, Debian unstable "is hardly good for any practical use" > other than being used by an expert-level user, and in that sense > Ubuntu is superior than Debian unstable. It's better for business, > period. And that is __exactly__ what I said. The thing is the Ubuntu machines I have experience with (such as the machine my wife has on her desk at school) involves serious breakages on many upgrades from one version to another, to the point where reinstalling the machine was apparently the simplest way out. That is far worse that I encounter with Debian unstable. So from what I have seen and read of Ubuntu upgrade disasters, I would choose debian unstable over Ubuntu if I was running an IT department and had to support the workstations. It would be less work from what I have seen. Of course testing would probably be an even better choice. So in my experience and from what I have from other people using Ubuntu, Ubuntu would NOT be better for business because it would not be easier to support. So there is no benefit in that case. > Now on the other hand, if I'm going to deploy a few dozen appliances > and I need long-term reliability I wouldn't use Ubuntu but rather > Debian stable and in this case Debian is better for business. So > whether one or the other is "good" or not depends very much on the > application. > > The whole point I've been trying to convey is that each one has it's > pros and cons and it's unfair to bash against one just because you > don't like it. I would do the same if someone comes here and implies > that Debian or any other distro or Open Source OS is a piece of crap. > > Hope this answers your question. Yes, but I don't agree with your facts. They don't match my data. To me it is simple. If your hardware supports it, run Debian stable. If you need a few packages of newer versions for some reason, then use debian backports. If your hardware is too new for stable (it happens), then either use stable with the backport kernel if possible, or use testing if necesary. If you want to play around and try new stuff and know what you are doing, have fun with unstable. Just pay attension during upgrades since sometimes apt will happily remove gnome to satisfy some other dependancies during a transition to a new version of something major. In that case it might be better to put something on hold, or to upgrade later, unless you don't want gnome or whatever else is going to be removed. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 15:23:58 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:23:58 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Alejandro Imass wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Thomas Milne >>> wrote: >>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Lennart Sorensen >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 02:41:13PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>> [...] >>> > > [...] > >>> I can understand why Debianites are pissed off at Ubuntu but it >>> doesn't justify creating FUD on it, on ANY Linux distro for that >>> matter. >> >> I don't care about Ubuntu at all. You claim that it is more usable >> than Debian Unstable, I am merely asking you to back that up with >> facts. Don't get all upset about it, just answer the question. >> > > First of all I am not upset, and don't turn this around on me. If you > read back on the thread you will realize the point here is my > objection on your unfair criticism on Ubuntu and the position that > Debian is the greatest thing ever. You can criticize the choices made > by Ubuntu but you shouldn't dismiss it as a piece of crap. > > To answer your question is very simple: As a business, I would not use > Debian unstable on a typical workstation because of the support costs > associated with it, but I would (and do) use Ubuntu because the > support resources are vast and my employees can usually solve problems > on their own. > > On the contrary, when using Debian unstable you are basically on your > own, an this goes not only for Debian, but also when using _any_ > unstable version of anything, including FreeBSD or any other. For > unstable versions, it is expected from the communities that you are > hacking your way through with the bleeding edge and you can't (and > shouldn't) expect a great level of support. On the contrary, it is > expected that you contribute by finding, reporting and perhaps fixing > the bugs. This is fine, and perhaps exciting, if you are an > experienced hacker, but it's not when that's not your business > objective. That's not anyone's experience with Debian Unstable that I've ever encountered. It's certainly not my experience. I am FAR from a 'hacker'. I know as much about Linux as the average fanboy, perhaps, but that's it. I don't know anything about programming, I couldn't edit a config file by hand if you paid me, at least none more complicated than for Quake. I can paste commands into a terminal, that's the extent of my hacking abilities. The thing is, I have never really needed 'support' of any kind. As I've mentioned, I'm lazy as HELL, so when I do cause problems by not paying attention when Debian gives me cogent advice and I've ignored it thinking I know better, I come running here and annoy the heck out of people who actually do deserve 'hacker', or perhaps better 'professional'. But really, I can say honestly that in every case I would have sorted it myself eventually. Not because I know the slightest thing about Debian, but because Debian has so many built-in safeguards, even for r-tards like me. Seriously, I had to have Lennart point it out to me a couple of times (because I'm lazy), but even when you fux it up, Debian actually spits out advice on how to fix it. Literally, 'you did this. Now do this to fix it'. I don't want to make this personal, but to be frank everything you've said about Debian is among a list of tropes that I've read continually about Debian over the years as I've been using Linux. Tropes that, up until a few years ago, I believed. 'Debian makes everyone do it their weird Debian way'. 'Debian is out of date unless you use unstable, and unstable is unusable'. 'Debian offers lousy support'. Etc, etc. I think the only one that ended up being true in my case is that 'Debian is for old farts'. > In that sense, Debian unstable "is hardly good for any practical use" > other than being used by an expert-level user, and in that sense > Ubuntu is superior than Debian unstable. It's better for business, > period. And that is __exactly__ what I said. My seven year old son uses Debian Unstable. He navigates the menu and clicks on things and plays games. Really, if you know how to run an application, whether it's a game or an Xterm for Emacs, who cares? Like I said, no one here, not even me the designated 'computer guy' in the house, has to deal with anything even remotely serious with Debian Unstable. A few months ago I installed Unstable on another machine, which is now in our kids play room. They use it to stream video from the NAS with XBMC. This is an eleven year old and a seven year old. They commit the most egregious errors in the way they use the computer, and I sometimes lose my temper, but damned if that computer isn't bullet proof. It's simple, as long as the computer can run the application(s) you need, and not require a lot of needless support, what else is there? > Now on the other hand, if I'm going to deploy a few dozen appliances > and I need long-term reliability I wouldn't use Ubuntu but rather > Debian stable and in this case Debian is better for business. So > whether one or the other is "good" or not depends very much on the > application. > > The whole point I've been trying to convey is that each one has it's > pros and cons and it's unfair to bash against one just because you > don't like it. I would do the same if someone comes here and implies > that Debian or any other distro or Open Source OS is a piece of crap. I'm not saying anything is a piece of crap. I did point out that YOU said there were 'versions' of Ubuntu that you would not use, which is exactly why I don't use Ubuntu, and exactly why Ubuntu fails to meet a basic element of reliability: easy and safe upgrades. It has nothing to do with my personal feelings one way or the other. If some people find that Ubuntu works for them, that's awesome. Some people want Skype, and I guess Skype is easier to install on Ubuntu. Great. Some people have laptops that need special drivers for wireless, and they say Ubuntu is easier for that. Perfect. My only objection is your continued characterization of Debian Unstable, which just doesn't match up with facts, at least none that I've ever seen or heard of or experienced. > Hope this answers your question. Well, it's not like it's a test ;) > -- > Alejandro Imass -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 15:47:58 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:47:58 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <20120110151419.GI27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110151419.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:54:57AM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> It does happen with Debian also and just saying it doesn't mean it's >> true. You post is typical Debianite zealotry that ultimately leads to >> errors like the ssh scandal, which you seem to have deliberately >> ignored in my last post. They do happen in Debian, *very publicly and >> shamefully so* - it was Debian stable, so don't say they don't happen >> "Ever", because it undermines the credibility of your whole post. >> >> I can understand why Debianites are pissed off at Ubuntu but it >> doesn't justify creating FUD on it, on ANY Linux distro for that >> matter. > > My problem with Ubuntu is that their idiotic fixed release dates means > they are releasing unstable and often broken software which frequently > breaks things when upgrading. ?I thoroughly believe in releasing stuff > when it is ready and not before. ?Ubuntu clearly doesn't care. > > Ubuntu had a lovely X server upgrade a few years ago that completely > broke X for anyone using an intel video chip. ?Apparently most Ubuntu > developers don't use that. ?Most users apaprently do. ?I don't remember if > it was a security update or not, but it was an update to a stable release. > >> I don't install _any_ software on it's point o version. In Ubuntu it >> seems they have adopted Microsoft's approach to client beta testing >> but at least they don't charge people for it. The .10 versions seem to >> be quite stable, and people should wait for those. > > .10 means released in October. ?No more, no less. ?.04 means released > in April. ?No more, no less. > >> Oh my god! I have a typo, please spare my life! >> >> If you are a Debian user you know for a fact that Debian unstable is >> so quirky it makes it unusable, un-usable, not-usable, or whatever you >> wanna call it, like it's very name: unstable and hardly good for any >> practical use. > > stable and unstable in Debian terms means 'packages don't change versions > and packages do change versions'. > > If you want unstable software in Debian, you would at least have to go > to experimental. ?unstable is perfectly usable 99.9% of the time. I wanted the latest Gnome Shell (I know, I know), so I'm now running quite a bit of Experimental. Still, IT WILL NOT BREAK. Zero problems. If I had a third machine I would love to try as much of Experimental as possible, just to see. This is perhaps one of the reasons Debian users might have earned a rep for 'zealotry' over the years, I suppose. But from what I've seen personally, it's entirely based on facts. I really have no reason to even care, I would gladly try something else if I thought it would work better. >> "Testing" is quite good and probably the best choice for doing >> anything on the desktop that requires some relatively new version of >> anything. Stable is great for servers yet the packaging is so old it >> can be challenging sometimes to get things done and you may wind up >> compiling many things from source. >> >> Debian is a great OS, but so is Ubuntu and it's unfair to create this >> FUD just because YOU think Debian is awesome and Ubuntu is crap, >> because it's not. They satisfy different needs and to solve real-world >> problems, and so do the other Linux distros, and non Linux OSes as >> well. > > I do like some of what Ubuntu has done, and they certainly are helping > Debian with many things (like multiarch). ?I just want them to stop > releasing things before they are tested and ready. > > Also what the heck were they thinking with Unity? > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 15:53:08 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:53:08 -0500 Subject: Instal script gone terribly wrong (users stung by Bumblebee) In-Reply-To: <20120107031530.GA13971-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120107031530.GA13971@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 10:15 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6#diff-1 > > GIANT BUG... causing /usr to be deleted... so sorry.... issue #123, i# > > ?Some light/dark humour. > Funniest comment: "I didn't like that directory anyway." -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 15:59:06 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:59:06 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110151419.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120111155906.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 10:47:58AM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > I wanted the latest Gnome Shell (I know, I know), so I'm now running > quite a bit of Experimental. Still, IT WILL NOT BREAK. Zero problems. > If I had a third machine I would love to try as much of Experimental > as possible, just to see. The package maintainers don't usually upload knowingly broken stuff after all. > This is perhaps one of the reasons Debian users might have earned a > rep for 'zealotry' over the years, I suppose. But from what I've seen > personally, it's entirely based on facts. I really have no reason to > even care, I would gladly try something else if I thought it would > work better. Yeah when you have seen how good it can be, why accept anything less? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 11 20:52:41 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:52:41 -0500 Subject: CMake vs autoconf In-Reply-To: <20120111022857.GA2576-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120111022857.GA2576@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F0DF699.8010009@ve3syb.ca> On 12-01-10 09:28 PM, William Park wrote: > For user, I guess it doesn't matter whether it's CMake or autoconf. > But, if anyone is writing build scripts, is it really easier? The only time I've looked behind the scenes of a CMake build environment was when I helped fix some build issues in Blender regarding the support for a Space Navigator. The initial impression was that it appeared better than the autofoo stuff but after a little while I started to think it might not be much simpler, just different. The one thing CMake has going for is being able to have all files related to compilation go to a directory separate from the actual source tree. This has the advantage you can have separate sub-directories with builds using different configuration options in CMake at the same time from the same source code without having to do full recompiles every time you switch build versions. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 12 02:37:06 2012 From: faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Syed Faisal Akber) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:37:06 -0500 Subject: CMake vs autoconf In-Reply-To: <4F0DF699.8010009-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120111022857.GA2576@node1.opengeometry.net> <4F0DF699.8010009@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20120111213706.68117igaq6q1h74i@webmail.no-ip.com> Quoting Kevin Cozens : > On 12-01-10 09:28 PM, William Park wrote: >> For user, I guess it doesn't matter whether it's CMake or autoconf. >> But, if anyone is writing build scripts, is it really easier? > > The only time I've looked behind the scenes of a CMake build > environment was when I helped fix some build issues in Blender > regarding the support for a Space Navigator. The initial impression > was that it appeared better than the autofoo stuff but after a > little while I started to think it might not be much simpler, just > different. > > The one thing CMake has going for is being able to have all files > related to compilation go to a directory separate from the actual > source tree. This has the advantage you can have separate > sub-directories with builds using different configuration options in > CMake at the same time from the same source code without having to > do full recompiles every time you switch build versions. You can do that with the regular make as well. You just run configure from the source tree in an empty directory elsewhere. This works well when compiling gcc/binutils/etc... for many different architectures at the same time. 73, Faisal > > -- > Cheers! > > Kevin. > > http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're > | powerful!" > #include | --Chris Hardwick > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 12 03:30:32 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:30:32 -0500 Subject: CMake vs autoconf In-Reply-To: <20120111213706.68117igaq6q1h74i-2RFepEojUI2QMrzro3nHSQC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20120111022857.GA2576@node1.opengeometry.net> <4F0DF699.8010009@ve3syb.ca> <20120111213706.68117igaq6q1h74i@webmail.no-ip.com> Message-ID: <4F0E53D8.4090900@ve3syb.ca> On 12-01-11 09:37 PM, Syed Faisal Akber wrote: > Quoting Kevin Cozens : >> The one thing CMake has going for is being able to have all files related >> to compilation go to a directory separate from the actual source tree. > > You can do that with the regular make as well. You just run configure from > the source tree in an empty directory elsewhere. This works well when > compiling gcc/binutils/etc... for many different architectures at the same > time. That's worth knowing but I have never seen any examples of it. On the other hand, CMake seemed to actively discourage compilation in the source tree. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 12 04:26:14 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:26:14 -0500 Subject: OpenIndiana (was: Ubuntu first time) In-Reply-To: <4F0C9F4A.9020501-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C84FE.7070201@utoronto.ca> <1326225728.30242.YahooMailNeo@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F0C9F4A.9020501@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20120112042613.GA3084@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi Jamon, I tried OpenIndiana in VM. It's Gnome desktop (like CentOS), so that part is familiar. But, I think it's too little too late... 1. How do I determine disk layout in OpenIndiana? In Linux, I would do cat /proc/partitions /proc/mounts /etc/fstab mount df fdisk -l to get some idea. 2. What is the naming convention for devices found under /dev/dsk and /dev/rdsk? Doc doesn't explain this. -- William On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 03:27:54PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 1/10/2012 3:02 PM, William Park wrote: > > Ok, I'll give it a spin. But, "server" and "desktop" version? > > Where is "everything" version? God, I'm already pissed off... too > > much coffee, I guess. > > Desktop includes server, it just adds Gnome and X on top of the base > packages. Firefox and Thunderbird 9 are available here: > > http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/latest/contrib/solaris_pkgadd/ > > http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/thunderbird/releases/latest/contrib/solaris_pkgadd/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 12 16:36:34 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:36:34 -0500 Subject: OpenIndiana In-Reply-To: <20120112042613.GA3084-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110150319.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120110172234.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F0C84FE.7070201@utoronto.ca> <1326225728.30242.YahooMailNeo@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F0C9F4A.9020501@utoronto.ca> <20120112042613.GA3084@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F0F0C12.5090705@utoronto.ca> On 1/11/2012 11:26 PM, William Park wrote: > Hi Jamon, > > I tried OpenIndiana in VM. It's Gnome desktop (like CentOS), so that > part is familiar. But, I think it's too little too late... > > 1. How do I determine disk layout in OpenIndiana? In Linux, I would do > cat /proc/partitions /proc/mounts /etc/fstab > mount > df > fdisk -l > to get some idea. Take a look at the 'format' utility, it will show you the disks that you have in use. Specifically, check the verify command and you'll see a list of partitions. Mostly though if you picked the default install options, zpool and zfs commands will be all that you really need to learn and use. > 2. What is the naming convention for devices found under /dev/dsk and > /dev/rdsk? Doc doesn't explain this. This is a good diagram showing how disk devices work: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/821-1459/figures/dev_access.fig2091.png Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 12 18:26:21 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:26:21 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Thomas Milne >> wrote: >>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Thomas Milne >>>> wrote: >>>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Lennart Sorensen >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 02:41:13PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>>> [...] >>>> >> >> [...] >> [...] >> My seven year old son uses Debian Unstable. He navigates the menu and >> clicks on things and plays games. Really, if you know how to run an >> application, whether it's a game or an Xterm for Emacs, who cares? >>Like I said, no one here, not even me the designated 'computer guy' in EVERYTHING you said applies to ANY Linux-based system and practically of ANY distro. Ease of use and stability is the reason why people who switch to Linux hardly ever go back to Windows. The greatness of Linux is not a Debian thing, sorry. [...] > I'm not saying anything is a piece of crap. I did point out that YOU > said there were 'versions' of Ubuntu that you would not use, which is > exactly why I don't use Ubuntu, and exactly why Ubuntu fails to meet a > basic element of reliability: easy and safe upgrades. It has nothing You may not use the word crap literally, but in this paragraph alone you are contradicting yourself. The fact that "easy and safe upgrades" may hold true for some doesn't mean it's _the truth_. It depends on what you use your computer for and the types and quantities of packages you have installed. I for one, HAVE NEVER been able to get a dist-upgrade to work correctly in Debian NOR Ubuntu. Notice that I am _particularly_ referring to dist-upgrade not regular upgrades. Similar mechanism haven't worked for us in other distros either and that's because a fundamental problem in the way ALL Linux distros are built, and BTW one of the fundamental advantages of *BSD like systems. Now, some people may come here and say I have a computer that I have dist-upgraded since Woody, and that maybe perfectly true, but in my humble 14 year experience with Linux, it is many times not the case. If dist-upgrades work for you, then good for you. For us they haven't and we partition our machines in a specific way to be able to re-install new versions without much hassle, basically isolating /home usually suffices, so we don't really care. The ease of use, stability and easiness of upgrades is hardly a Debian trait, it's a Linux trait, and the tons of great Open Source Software projects around it. > to do with my personal feelings one way or the other. If some people > find that Ubuntu works for them, that's awesome. Some people want > Skype, and I guess Skype is easier to install on Ubuntu. Great. Some > people have laptops that need special drivers for wireless, and they > say Ubuntu is easier for that. Perfect. > Yeah, well that has been my point all along: avoid unfair bashing and FUD. And it's the _only_ reason I've kept answering this long, boring and inflammatory thread. > My only objection is your continued characterization of Debian > Unstable, which just doesn't match up with facts, at least none that > I've ever seen or heard of or experienced. > It's called a difference of opinion. Every usage scenario will have a different set of facts. In my set of facts I wouldn't touch Debian unstable with a ten foot pole, but I would install a fresh Ubuntu regardless of the version. In your set of facts, it's just the opposite, so let's be content with this fact and give this thread a peaceful and deserved rest. Once again may I stress: I also use and prefer Debian for other situations (or Slack, CentOS, and even RHEL or whatever _better fits the bill for that particular situation_[1]), but in either case I would bash against anyone of them, because I love Linux, FreeBSD, Perl, and Open Source in general, not Debian or Ubuntu in particular. Cheers, -- Alejandro Imass [1] A typical (yet not the only) scenario for using RHEL is for customers that hate Windows but love their Oracle. I've gotten Oracle to run on Debian, but Oracle won't give you any support, so in this particular case Debian is basically useless. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 12 21:39:00 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:39:00 -0500 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F0F52F4.3000601@ve3syb.ca> On 12-01-08 03:39 PM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I have a DVD's that were recorded from old family video 8 tapes. Is it > possible (with Linux software - either free or not) to edit the ripped > DVD? The idea being to record another DVD from the edited files. There are programs that can pull the contents off a DVD and save the video in standard video file formats. To edit the files there are four different programs you can use: LiVES, Kino, Cinelerra, and kdenlive. I have never looked at kdenlive but I have tried the other three (but not recently). Kino seemed a rather basic editor but IIRC it had a feature (reversing a video segment which I did use once) that wasn't in the other programs. I tried Cinelerra which was closer to the editor I use in Windows but it's selection of file formats for import seemed limited and it didn't seem to be as stable as the other offerings. In Linux I was mostly using LiVES. It wasn't as full featured as Cinelerra but it offered more than Kino, supported more file formats and was more stable than Cinelerra. It has been a while since I have checked out the Linux based video editors so all of the programs may have changed and/or improved since I last tried them. I still find myself going back to Pinnacle Studio in Windows when I have a need to edit some video. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 12 23:35:53 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:35:53 +0000 Subject: All Video Editing Lovers In-Reply-To: <4F0F52F4.3000601-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: ,<4F0F52F4.3000601@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:39:00 -0500 > From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: All Video Editing Lovers > > > On 12-01-08 03:39 PM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I have a DVD's that were recorded from old family video 8 tapes. Is it > > possible (with Linux software - either free or not) to edit the ripped > > DVD? The idea being to record another DVD from the edited files. > > There are programs that can pull the contents off a DVD and save the video > in standard video file formats. To edit the files there are four different > programs you can use: LiVES, Kino, Cinelerra, and kdenlive. > > I have never looked at kdenlive but I have tried the other three (but not > recently). Kino seemed a rather basic editor but IIRC it had a feature > (reversing a video segment which I did use once) that wasn't in the other > programs. I tried Cinelerra which was closer to the editor I use in Windows > but it's selection of file formats for import seemed limited and it didn't > seem to be as stable as the other offerings. In Linux I was mostly using > LiVES. It wasn't as full featured as Cinelerra but it offered more than > Kino, supported more file formats and was more stable than Cinelerra. > > It has been a while since I have checked out the Linux based video editors > so all of the programs may have changed and/or improved since I last tried > them. I still find myself going back to Pinnacle Studio in Windows when I > have a need to edit some video. > > -- > Cheers! > > Kevin. > Thanks Kevin. And thanks also to the many people who replied, I received some really good information. I was under the mistaken belief that a ripped DVD would result in identical copies of the files that are on the DVD (ie. vob). After your reply, I found some DVD rippers that encode to other file formats, so now my choices for video editors are even better. I was initially considering using AVIDemux because their web site has such good documentation. But I think I'll give kdenlive a try instead, mostly because it seems to be getting a lot of press lately. I have at least 50 hours of video to edit, so ought to start cracking... John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 00:25:39 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 19:25:39 -0500 Subject: Commercial Surveillance, who is going to remain part of the problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4F0C5587.5000503@ss.org> Message-ID: <4F0F7A03.6060909@sobac.com> On 12-01-10 11:24 AM, Myles Braithwaite wrote: > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> I knew there was a reason I disliked using social network services. >> It was partially the lack of control over how my information would be used, >> but I was having trouble articulating it in a manner which would be >> meaningful to others. >> >> Well worth a read for it's honesty and brevity, but powerful point. >> >> http://www.betabeat.com/2011/12/13/in-which-eben-moglen-like-legit-yells-at-me-for-being-on-facebook/ >> >> -- >> Scott Sullivan > > > I don't see how information stored on Facebook, Twitter, or other > social networks differs from having a public website or blog where you > control your data. I think if we truly want to educate users we need > to tell them that anything published on the Internet (even for example > if it's a protected Twitter account or a Google+ message sent only to > two other people) is public information and can be archive for an > indefinite period of time and used by anyone for anything. People who store data on their own servers might understand that there is a possibility of their data leaking out through holes in their security model. People who store data on (free) commercial services almost certainly don't, never mind understanding about those services' deliberate attempts to collect, correlate and commercialize their data. --Bob. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 06:24:14 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 01:24:14 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> <20120109184718.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120109215515.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F0FCE0E.4060202@sobac.com> On 12-01-10 03:05 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Alejandro Imass > > | I don't install _any_ software on it's point o version. In Ubuntu it > | seems they have adopted Microsoft's approach to client beta testing > | but at least they don't charge people for it. The .10 versions seem to > | be quite stable, and people should wait for those. > > I have trouble with Ubuntu and Fedora releases. I guess I'm a > trouble-magnet. I haven't even tried Debian, so I cannot compare it. > > Ubuntu's "cadence" isn't two phase, as far as I know. So .04 and .10 > versions should have an equal chance of perfection. Except for LTS > versions. Perhaps he meant the YY.MM.1 version. For example, there was an Ubuntu 10.04.1 release in July 2010, and there will be a 10.04.4 release later this month or next. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseSchedule/LTStoLTS https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule > The current LTS is 10.04; next is 12.04. 10.04 wasn't perfect out of > the gate. In fact, it isn't even perfect now. But it is pretty solid > (and a bit stale). Stale and solid are correlated for most distros, I > imagine. > > Ubuntu LTS versions sometimes come out with even-more-dots versions > which are fixed but not advanced, more or less. Like 10.04.1. Ah. Yes. > My strategy for non-critical installations is to wait a couple of > months for the dust to settle before using either a Fedora release or > a Ubuntu release. > > Solid Current Exciting > ===== ======= ======== > RHEL/CentOS Fedora Rawhide > Ubuntu LTS Ubuntu beta / RC > Debian Stable Debian Unstable Debian Testing (Sid?) > > I like the idea of Solid, but I often find it too stale for my taste. > > I wish updated Live CD images were easy to come by. I think Fedora > lets you "respin" Live CDs, but I haven't looked at how much machinery > you need. Ubuntu LTS point release ISOs for both server and Live CDs for desktop are available at http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/alternative-download . > > I wonder if Live USB stick version can be updated by the normal update > mechanisms of the distro. It is my experience that while you can update individual packages, the persistent Live CD images created by Ubuntu Startup Disk Creator do not have enough room for an upgrade. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 17:10:56 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:10:56 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? Message-ID: Afternoon pal I am interested in configuring sshd to use both PKI and password and this do not seem possible from what I can tell by a bit of googling? Is this correct? Have someone here ever managed to achieve that? Thanks in advance William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 17:17:52 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:17:52 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F106740.5080309@rogers.com> William Muriithi wrote: > I am interested in configuring sshd to use both PKI and password and > this do not seem possible from what I can tell by a bit of googling? > Is this correct? Have someone here ever managed to achieve that? Do you mean one or the other? Or both required? IIRC, turning off the requirement for passwords and enabling PKI are two separate configuration issues and you can have both required, but I don't know if it's possible to configure for either. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 17:23:34 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:23:34 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: <4F106740.5080309-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F106740.5080309@rogers.com> Message-ID: James > > Do you mean one or the other? ?Or both required? I mean both would be required > > IIRC, turning off the requirement for passwords and enabling PKI are two > separate configuration issues and you can have both required, but I don't > know if it's possible to configure for either. > Cool, that what I need. How do I ensure login fail if no password or wrong password is presented? > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 18:15:14 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:15:14 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: <4F106740.5080309@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F1074B2.3020104@rogers.com> William Muriithi wrote: >> IIRC, turning off the requirement for passwords and enabling PKI are two >> > separate configuration issues and you can have both required, but I don't >> > know if it's possible to configure for either. >> > > Cool, that what I need. How do I ensure login fail if no password or > wrong password is presented? >> > The configuration is done in /etc/ssh/sshd_config (at least in openSUSE) I have disabled passwords here: # To disable tunneled clear text passwords, change to no here! PasswordAuthentication no You will have to change that to yes to require passwords. You also want to leave as is: # Change to no to disable s/key passwords #ChallengeResponseAuthentication yes However, I haven't tried both password and shared key, so you'll have to experiment. You can also man sshd_config for more info. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 18:25:03 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:25:03 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:10 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Afternoon pal > > I am interested in configuring sshd to use both PKI and password and > this do not seem possible from what I can tell by a bit of googling? > Is this correct? ?Have someone here ever managed to achieve that? Well, if I use a key that has a password attached, then the local agent checks the password before allowing access to the key for the purposes of using the key to access a remote system. However there is not a way for the sshd server to determine whether or not the password on that key was null, and the validation takes place on the local host, it's not done by sshd. It sounds as though what you're asking for is instead for sshd to require multiple forms of authentication. It's not a built-in thing: http://marc.info/?l=secure-shell&m=114954496014532&w=2 Another thought would be to hack with the resulting shell to require a password check after logging in via the public key. The following describes the use of an "sshgatekeeper" script to do a post-connection password check. https://calomel.org/openssh.html But that feels pretty kludgey and fragile to me. My inclination would be, in an environment where this sort of thing is required, to have a step that requires submission of *both* the public and private ssh key, which then refuses to install the public key in ~/.ssh/authorized_keys if the private key uses a null key. That takes us back to the initial scenario I described above, with the guarantee that there is a password on the private key. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 18:36:22 2012 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:36:22 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120113183622.GA2436@watson-wilson.ca> It's a shame that OpenSSH does not allow such a two factor authentication. If you have the infrastructure you might use two hosts. Host one, a bastion, accepts key authentication. Host two accepts passwords. Once a user is logged on to host two they can have access to their target. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 18:45:20 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:45:20 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: <20120113183622.GA2436-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120113183622.GA2436@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4F107BC0.4020404@utoronto.ca> On 1/13/2012 1:36 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > It's a shame that OpenSSH does not allow such a two factor > authentication. If you have the infrastructure you might use two hosts. > Host one, a bastion, accepts key authentication. Host two accepts > passwords. Once a user is logged on to host two they can have access to > their target. You can do an awful lot with the use of ForceCommand and Match directives in sshd_config. Link up whatever recipe is in said script to Google Authenticator, and you have working multi-factor authentication. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 19:07:50 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:07:50 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Well, if I use a key that has a password attached, then the local > agent checks the password before allowing access to the key for the > purposes of using the key to access a remote system. ?However there is > not a way for the sshd server to determine whether or not the password > on that key was null, and the validation takes place on the local > host, it's not done by sshd. No that is not what I wanted. That is a client solution and does not scale or can not be enforced > > It sounds as though what you're asking for is instead for sshd to > require multiple forms of authentication. Yeap, that correct, should have used that phrase now that I think of it > It's not a built-in thing: > http://marc.info/?l=secure-shell&m=114954496014532&w=2 > Hmm, now that is the answer to my question. Hmm, I guess I will go with Google authenticator as Jason mentioned. > Another thought would be to hack with the resulting shell to require a > password check after logging in via the public key. Agree Neil, I do not see why openssh decided not to support password and PKI. They would just have needed one configuration flag and a bit of code refactoring. Wonder if there is any public discussion out there on how they arrived on this decision? May be there is security implication behind it, since openssh developers are security guys. Anyway, again, thanks for the feedback William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 19:32:58 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 14:32:58 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 2:07 PM, William Muriithi wrote: >> >> Well, if I use a key that has a password attached, then the local >> agent checks the password before allowing access to the key for the >> purposes of using the key to access a remote system. ?However there is >> not a way for the sshd server to determine whether or not the password >> on that key was null, and the validation takes place on the local >> host, it's not done by sshd. > No that is not what I wanted. ?That is a client solution and does not > scale or can not be enforced It *can* be enforced if the process that draws in entries for ~/.ssh/authorized_keys requires checking that the private key has a password. As for "does not scale," I'm not sure that your requirement can be considered to "scale", but I think that requires explaining precisely what you mean, as "does not scale" is an overloaded term that itself 'does not scale'. > Hmm, now that is the answer to my question. ?Hmm, I guess I will go > with Google authenticator as Jason mentioned. Plausible. That requires NTP syncing. There may be other implementations of RFC 4226 available; haven't looked hard, so not certain. >> Another thought would be to hack with the resulting shell to require a >> password check after logging in via the public key. > Agree Neil, I do not see why openssh decided not to support password > and PKI. ?They would just have needed one configuration flag and a bit > of code refactoring. > > Wonder if there is any public discussion out there on how they arrived > on this decision? ?May be there is security implication behind it, > since openssh developers are security guys. They put a hook in place allowing a secondary authentication layer. But configuring multiple mechanisms is something that I'd suggest "does not scale," as it requires an exponential growth of configuration to control what authentication is to be used, in which order, and it introduces additional failure modes, thereby lowering reliability and introducing risks of self-imposed denials of service. It's not obvious that there's much gained for those diminishments of scalability... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 20:03:38 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F108E1A.80406@utoronto.ca> On 1/13/2012 2:32 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 2:07 PM, William Muriithi > wrote: >>> >>> Well, if I use a key that has a password attached, then the local >>> agent checks the password before allowing access to the key for the >>> purposes of using the key to access a remote system. However there is >>> not a way for the sshd server to determine whether or not the password >>> on that key was null, and the validation takes place on the local >>> host, it's not done by sshd. > >> No that is not what I wanted. That is a client solution and does not >> scale or can not be enforced > > It *can* be enforced if the process that draws in entries for > ~/.ssh/authorized_keys requires checking that the private key has a > password. > > As for "does not scale," I'm not sure that your requirement can be > considered to "scale", but I think that requires explaining precisely > what you mean, as "does not scale" is an overloaded term that itself > 'does not scale'. Relying on .ssh/authorized_keys is probably only maintainable using something like puppet or cfengine. Otherwise, that certainly won't scale. Also, if the user can change the contents of that file, whatever commands are being enforced there can be bypassed. Better to use ForceCommand in sshd_config. >> Hmm, now that is the answer to my question. Hmm, I guess I will go >> with Google authenticator as Jason mentioned. > > Plausible. That requires NTP syncing. There may be other > implementations of RFC 4226 available; haven't looked hard, so not > certain. It is not that difficult to maintain accurate time these days. I haven't run into any problems using my mobile phone with google authenticator. Additionally, the RFC 4226 allows for HMAC one time passwords instead of time based, so maintaining clock-sync needn't be a complete blocker for implementing this. >>> Another thought would be to hack with the resulting shell to require a >>> password check after logging in via the public key. >> Agree Neil, I do not see why openssh decided not to support password >> and PKI. They would just have needed one configuration flag and a bit >> of code refactoring. >> >> Wonder if there is any public discussion out there on how they arrived >> on this decision? May be there is security implication behind it, >> since openssh developers are security guys. > > They put a hook in place allowing a secondary authentication layer. > > But configuring multiple mechanisms is something that I'd suggest > "does not scale," as it requires an exponential growth of > configuration to control what authentication is to be used, in which > order, and it introduces additional failure modes, thereby lowering > reliability and introducing risks of self-imposed denials of service. > > It's not obvious that there's much gained for those diminishments of > scalability... Using Match Group haxors and a subsequent ForceCommand to control multi-factor authentication can scale to as many users as are in said haxors group, or as many users or groups as you need to support. With a central policy based configuration tool there is no reason this cannot scale to as many entries as SSH itself supports in sshd_config (no idea what that limit might be). This type of configuration also addresses the problem of users being able to manipulate their .ssh/authorized_keys files, since the command cannot be altered by the user. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 21:11:02 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:11:02 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christopher > It *can* be enforced if the process that draws in entries for > ~/.ssh/authorized_keys requires checking that the private key has a > password. > Hmm, not sure I understood you. How would you enforce it if you have a contractor in USA and no physical access to his laptop during the key pair generation? Can you tell the private key is secured by a password when all you have is the public key? > As for "does not scale," I'm not sure that your requirement can be > considered to "scale", but I think that requires explaining precisely > what you mean, as "does not scale" is an overloaded term that itself > 'does not scale'. Agree, have misused the word scaling. I meant it does now work if some people are remote geographically > Thanks -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 21:17:47 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:17:47 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: <4F108E1A.80406-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F108E1A.80406@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: > > Relying on .ssh/authorized_keys is probably only maintainable using > something like puppet or cfengine. Otherwise, that certainly won't > scale. It can scale if all the servers have a shared home directory and home directories >Also, if the user can change the contents of that file, whatever > commands are being enforced there can be bypassed. Better to use > ForceCommand in sshd_config. I think I do not understand, how would the user change authorized_keys without authenticating first? And if he/she change it after authenticating, why should it be of concern? I am suspecting though I may have misread your response and wonder if you can explain further? > William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 21:24:14 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:24:14 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:11 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Christopher >> It *can* be enforced if the process that draws in entries for >> ~/.ssh/authorized_keys requires checking that the private key has a >> password. >> > Hmm, not sure I understood you. ?How would you enforce it if you have > a contractor in USA and no physical access to his laptop during the > key pair generation? ?Can you tell the private key is secured by a > password when all you have is the public key? You tell them: "Give me a copy of both the private key and the public key. If I don't see a passphrase on the private key, I won't be adding this key to ~/.ssh/authorized_keys" Further... "You don't want to give me the private key? Well, if you don't give me both keys, I won't be authorizing your access. Giving me both keys is a condition of your Continued Employment." I'm not certain it's easy to validate that a public and private key correspond to each other without having the password; I leave that puzzle for others to puzzle over. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 21:24:26 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:24:26 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: <4F108E1A.80406-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F108E1A.80406@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 1/13/2012 2:32 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 2:07 PM, William Muriithi >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, if I use a key that has a password attached, then the local >>>> agent checks the password before allowing access to the key for the >>>> purposes of using the key to access a remote system. ?However there is >>>> not a way for the sshd server to determine whether or not the password >>>> on that key was null, and the validation takes place on the local >>>> host, it's not done by sshd. >> >>> No that is not what I wanted. ?That is a client solution and does not >>> scale or can not be enforced >> >> It *can* be enforced if the process that draws in entries for >> ~/.ssh/authorized_keys requires checking that the private key has a >> password. >> >> As for "does not scale," I'm not sure that your requirement can be >> considered to "scale", but I think that requires explaining precisely >> what you mean, as "does not scale" is an overloaded term that itself >> 'does not scale'. > > Relying on .ssh/authorized_keys is probably only maintainable using > something like puppet or cfengine. Otherwise, that certainly won't > scale. Also, if the user can change the contents of that file, whatever > commands are being enforced there can be bypassed. Better to use > ForceCommand in sshd_config. ... Or by *any* mechanism that allows authorized keys to get captured in a centralized way. I might like the idea of inserting the ssh key, along with other data, into a Postgres table. You might be keen on stowing the ssh keys into a set of files pulled into place by Puppet/CFEngine. Someone else might feel that MongoDB is more "web scale", and stow ssh keys into a MongoDB store. The other option I'd think pretty logical would be to stow the ssh keys as attributes in an LDAP store. And it's a SMOP (Simple Matter Of Programming) to pull the data out of *any* of those to generate an authorized_keys file. Note that the Original Poster *wanted* to use ssh keys as part of the authentication process; in that case, if the authorized_keys mechanism "doesn't scale," then the whole notion of using ssh keys is problematic, and all of the above amounts to shuffling around deck chairs whilst the ship is sinking underneath you... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 21:30:30 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:30:30 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120113213030.GU27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 04:24:14PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > You tell them: > "Give me a copy of both the private key and the public key. If I > don't see a passphrase on the private key, I won't be adding this key > to ~/.ssh/authorized_keys" > > Further... > "You don't want to give me the private key? Well, if you don't give > me both keys, I won't be authorizing your access. Giving me both keys > is a condition of your Continued Employment." > > I'm not certain it's easy to validate that a public and private key > correspond to each other without having the password; I leave that > puzzle for others to puzzle over. Giving you the private key is also bad security practice and proves nothing to you. You can remove the passphrase later after all or change it. -- LeN Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 21:53:38 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:53:38 -0500 Subject: ssh server configuration - Are public key and password exclusive? In-Reply-To: <20120113213030.GU27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120113213030.GU27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F10A7E2.1070004@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> I'm not certain it's easy to validate that a public and private key >> > correspond to each other without having the password; I leave that >> > puzzle for others to puzzle over. > Giving you the private key is also bad security practice and proves > nothing to you. You can remove the passphrase later after all or > change it. Also, unless you have a secure method of transporting the private key, how do you keep someone else from getting it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 13 23:49:37 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:49:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) Message-ID: The Dell Vostro V131 is on sale today at dell for $319. A coupon can reduce this by 10% Part of day 9 of Dell's Business Days of Deals: Coupon: D1MWRSLGFQ7X0Q Note: coupon can only be used for one item per customer. Thanks: One of the few mainstream notebooks that comes with Linux pre-installed (Ubuntu 11.04). I am obliged to point out that Lennart thinks Dell computers stink. On the other hand, you could apply the coupon to a pretty interesting monitor in the same sale: the U2212HM. Price today is $169 and the coupon reduces that by 10%. This monitor is IPS, much nicer than TN. The real win would have been to use the coupon yesterday when they had the 30" U3011 for about $1000. Nice monitor! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 14 00:24:40 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:24:40 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120114002440.GV27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 06:49:37PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The Dell Vostro V131 is on sale today at dell for $319. A coupon can > reduce this by 10% > > Part of day 9 of Dell's Business Days of Deals: > > > Coupon: D1MWRSLGFQ7X0Q > Note: coupon can only be used for one item per customer. > > Thanks: > > One of the few mainstream notebooks that comes with Linux pre-installed > (Ubuntu 11.04). > > I am obliged to point out that Lennart thinks Dell computers stink. > > On the other hand, you could apply the coupon to a pretty interesting > monitor in the same sale: the U2212HM. Price today is $169 and the coupon > reduces that by 10%. This monitor is IPS, much nicer than TN. Unfortunately Dell is now using eIPS in some of the cheaper IPS screens which is not nearly as good as the traditional IPS (but still much better than TN). It is quite a bit cheaper to build though, hence the lower price. I believe the traditional IPS is sIPS or hIPS. > The real win would have been to use the coupon yesterday when they had the > 30" U3011 for about $1000. Nice monitor! Yeah that one sure is nice. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 14 00:29:47 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:29:47 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 6:49 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The Dell Vostro V131 is on sale today at dell for $319. ?A coupon can > reduce this by 10% > > Part of day 9 of Dell's Business Days of Deals: > > > Coupon: D1MWRSLGFQ7X0Q > Note: coupon can only be used for one item per customer. > > Thanks: > > One of the few mainstream notebooks that comes with Linux pre-installed > (Ubuntu 11.04). > > I am obliged to point out that Lennart thinks Dell computers stink. Ha! I was thinking the exact same thing. > On the other hand, you could apply the coupon to a pretty interesting > monitor in the same sale: the U2212HM. ?Price today is $169 and the coupon > reduces that by 10%. ?This monitor is IPS, much nicer than TN. > > The real win would have been to use the coupon yesterday when they had the > 30" U3011 for about $1000. ?Nice monitor! > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 14 01:52:31 2012 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:52:31 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) Message-ID: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> I am at best buy right now. $399 will get you an ugly 15.6 inch i3 with 4gb of ddr3 ram. There is a white Samsung net book for $249 -- open box. The Acer net book has a regular price of $259. Pricing has gotten very aggressive lately on laptops and netbook. Sent from my mobile On 2012-01-13, at 18:49, "D. Hugh Redelmeier" wrote: > The Dell Vostro V131 is on sale today at dell for $319. A coupon can > reduce this by 10% > > Part of day 9 of Dell's Business Days of Deals: > > > Coupon: D1MWRSLGFQ7X0Q > Note: coupon can only be used for one item per customer. > > Thanks: > > One of the few mainstream notebooks that comes with Linux pre-installed > (Ubuntu 11.04). > > I am obliged to point out that Lennart thinks Dell computers stink. > > On the other hand, you could apply the coupon to a pretty interesting > monitor in the same sale: the U2212HM. Price today is $169 and the coupon > reduces that by 10%. This monitor is IPS, much nicer than TN. > > The real win would have been to use the coupon yesterday when they had the > 30" U3011 for about $1000. Nice monitor! > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 14 05:36:40 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 00:36:40 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120114053640.GA6864@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 06:49:37PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The Dell Vostro V131 is on sale today at dell for $319. A coupon can > reduce this by 10% > > Part of day 9 of Dell's Business Days of Deals: > > > Coupon: D1MWRSLGFQ7X0Q > Note: coupon can only be used for one item per customer. > > Thanks: > > One of the few mainstream notebooks that comes with Linux pre-installed > (Ubuntu 11.04). > > I am obliged to point out that Lennart thinks Dell computers stink. Hey, it's after midnight, and the coupon still works. Vostro class should be better than Inspiron. I can't get rating on that cpu, but closest Celeron 847 is pretty bad. It has VT-x and 64-bit, but I don't think anyone is going to run VM on it. I can barely get away with Athlon II X2 3.2GHz. It's useful only for X-terminal and "PowerPoint". My Toshiba Pentium-M 1.73GHz is half as fast but twice as heavy. So, it's a wash! -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 15 03:51:04 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 22:51:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Thomas Milne | Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:18:46 -0400 | http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/microsoft-tries-to-block-linux-off-windows-8-pcs/9572?tag=mantle_skin%3Bcontent That may not happen. But it seems to be happening in the ARM world: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 15 22:15:54 2012 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:15:54 -0500 Subject: [TLUG] Problems with Thinkcentre S50 desktop and Opensuse 12.1 Message-ID: <000c01ccd3d3$4006cf10$c0146d30$@iprimus.ca> Hello all I recently bought a refurbished Lenovo Thinkcentre S50 desktop and installed OpenSUSE 12.1 on it. It seems to work great EXCEPT instead of going into the screensaver after 30 minutes of inactivity it sort of hibernates (shuts down, tapping the keyboard, moving the mouse etc does not wake it up. I adjusted the Power setting in OpenSUSE NOT to suspend or hibernate and did the same in OpenSUSE. Not sure what to try next. Any ideas would be appreciated. Clive DaSilva CMA Business Analyst Home: 416-421-2480|Mobile: 416-560-8820|Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 16 01:54:45 2012 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:54:45 +1000 Subject: [TLUG] Problems with Thinkcentre S50 desktop and Opensuse 12.1 In-Reply-To: <000c01ccd3d3$4006cf10$c0146d30$@iprimus.ca> References: <000c01ccd3d3$4006cf10$c0146d30$@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: Throw it on the ground? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ&feature=related On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Clive DaSilva wrote: > Hello all**** > > ** ** > > I recently bought a refurbished Lenovo Thinkcentre S50 desktop and > installed OpenSUSE 12.1 on it. It seems to work great EXCEPT instead of > going into the screensaver after 30 minutes of inactivity it sort of > hibernates (shuts down, tapping the keyboard, moving the mouse etc does not > wake it up. I adjusted the Power setting in OpenSUSE NOT to suspend or > hibernate and did the same in OpenSUSE. Not sure what to try next.**** > > ** ** > > Any ideas would be appreciated.**** > > ** ** > > Clive DaSilva CMA**** > > Business Analyst**** > > Home: 416-421-2480|Mobile: 416-560-8820|Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org**** > > ** ** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 16 18:09:59 2012 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:09:59 -0500 Subject: [TLUG] Problems with Thinkcentre S50 desktop and Opensuse 12.1 In-Reply-To: References: <000c01ccd3d3$4006cf10$c0146d30$@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: <001d01ccd47a$0fa6a5a0$2ef3f0e0$@iprimus.ca> Thanks Tim J From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Timothy Hildred Sent: January-15-12 8:55 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Re: [TLUG] Problems with Thinkcentre S50 desktop and Opensuse 12.1 Throw it on the ground? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ &feature=related On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Clive DaSilva wrote: Hello all I recently bought a refurbished Lenovo Thinkcentre S50 desktop and installed OpenSUSE 12.1 on it. It seems to work great EXCEPT instead of going into the screensaver after 30 minutes of inactivity it sort of hibernates (shuts down, tapping the keyboard, moving the mouse etc does not wake it up. I adjusted the Power setting in OpenSUSE NOT to suspend or hibernate and did the same in OpenSUSE. Not sure what to try next. Any ideas would be appreciated. Clive DaSilva CMA Business Analyst Home: 416-421-2480|Mobile: 416-560-8820|Email: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 17 11:34:46 2012 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 04:34:46 -0700 (MST) Subject: Linux Bootable UDF Message-ID: Hi! Do you know how to make a writable (packet writing) UDF media (such as UDF-formatted USB flash drive or DVD+RW formatted for packet writing) bootable under Linux? I did some Google search but cannot find anything into that direction. Grub 2 said it support UDF, but refuse to install on an UDF media (grub2-install failed with error). Thanks! -- ____ ____ ____ ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo /___ /___/ /___/ /___ http://www.arifsaha.com/ ____/ / / / ____/ ***** Happy New Year! Felix dies Nativitatis! ***** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 17 13:06:01 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:06:01 -0500 Subject: MP250 printer settings on Debian Message-ID: When I try to print a black and white document with this printer, it gives an error that the colour ink is empty. I am looking for a way to tell this printer to only print black and white. I can't find a clear answer anywhere, some say you _have to_ have colour ink, others say it's optional. I can't find any relevant settings for this printer except under Printer Options in the Printing dialogue, there is a setting for 'colour model', which only has 'RGB' available. Anyone else have this printer? -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 17 15:51:45 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:51:45 -0500 Subject: Linux Bootable UDF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120117155145.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 04:34:46AM -0700, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > Do you know how to make a writable (packet writing) UDF media (such > as UDF-formatted USB flash drive or DVD+RW formatted for packet > writing) bootable under Linux? > > I did some Google search but cannot find anything into that > direction. Grub 2 said it support UDF, but refuse to install on an > UDF media (grub2-install failed with error). CD/DVD drives typically use el torito boot. I don't know how that would integrate with a UDF media. It certainly would not be easily changeable. USB flash drives boot like a harddisk in most cases, which is totally different. grub2 probably supports reading UDF and booting kernels found on UDF. That doesn't mean it can embed in UDF (there probably isn't anywhere to embed in UDF). One option would be to generate a grub image with a config that tells it to load a different config from UDF. Then if possible embed that image as the boot code when creating the UDF file system. ISO supports doing this. UDF might. I quick search reveals UDF can not be bootable. Bootable UDF DVDs actually also have a fake ISO embedded at the start to contain the boot code. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 20:02:44 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:02:44 -0500 Subject: Changing the UID number of a directory Message-ID: Hello I have two users with the same name, and I got them because I configured the system to use LDAP after I had already created a local account and generated files on the home directory. In another word, I have two account both called william, but one with a UID of 501 and another with a UID 2005. When I check the file properties of the home directory with "ls -n /home/ | grep william", they are owned by UID 501, so despite login with the same account "william", I get permission denied because of the inconsistent UID. I have checked chown and it does not have a way of changing UID when both account has a name "william". Is there a way of changing this properties without destroying and starting a fresh? I have looked at all the flags for chown and nothing seem to allow that. Regards William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vic-2vUEnoANFF8dnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 20:09:29 2012 From: vic-2vUEnoANFF8dnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org (Vic Gedris) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:09:29 -0500 Subject: Changing the UID number of a directory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Doesn't this work? chown 2005 filename -Vic Vic Gedris - http://vic.gedris.org Toronto, Ontario, Canada - http://www.junctiontriangle.ca On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 3:02 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Hello > > I have two users with the same name, and I got them because I > configured the system to use LDAP after I had already created a local > account and generated files on the home directory. > > In another word, I have two account both called william, but one with > a UID of 501 and another with a UID 2005. ?When I check the file > properties of the home directory with "ls -n /home/ | grep william", > they are owned by UID 501, so despite login with the same account > "william", I get permission denied because of the inconsistent UID. > > I have checked chown and it does not have a way of changing UID when > both account has a name "william". ?Is there a way of changing this > properties without destroying and starting a fresh? ?I have looked at > all the flags for chown and nothing seem to allow that. > > Regards > William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 20:17:21 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:17:21 -0800 Subject: Changing the UID number of a directory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: changing UID if the files or the account? Try the number instead of username for files, or "vipw" for the account On Jan 18, 2012 12:03 PM, "William Muriithi" wrote: > Hello > > I have two users with the same name, and I got them because I > configured the system to use LDAP after I had already created a local > account and generated files on the home directory. > > In another word, I have two account both called william, but one with > a UID of 501 and another with a UID 2005. When I check the file > properties of the home directory with "ls -n /home/ | grep william", > they are owned by UID 501, so despite login with the same account > "william", I get permission denied because of the inconsistent UID. > > I have checked chown and it does not have a way of changing UID when > both account has a name "william". Is there a way of changing this > properties without destroying and starting a fresh? I have looked at > all the flags for chown and nothing seem to allow that. > > Regards > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 20:17:32 2012 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:17:32 -0500 Subject: Changing the UID number of a directory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This does the trick on my machine at work, so it should work for you, William. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org On 18 January 2012 15:09, Vic Gedris wrote: > Doesn't this work? > chown 2005 filename > > -Vic > > Vic Gedris - http://vic.gedris.org > Toronto, Ontario, Canada - http://www.junctiontriangle.ca > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 3:02 PM, William Muriithi > wrote: >> Hello >> >> I have two users with the same name, and I got them because I >> configured the system to use LDAP after I had already created a local >> account and generated files on the home directory. >> >> In another word, I have two account both called william, but one with >> a UID of 501 and another with a UID 2005. ?When I check the file >> properties of the home directory with "ls -n /home/ | grep william", >> they are owned by UID 501, so despite login with the same account >> "william", I get permission denied because of the inconsistent UID. >> >> I have checked chown and it does not have a way of changing UID when >> both account has a name "william". ?Is there a way of changing this >> properties without destroying and starting a fresh? ?I have looked at >> all the flags for chown and nothing seem to allow that. >> >> Regards >> William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 21:14:21 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:14:21 -0500 Subject: Changing the UID number of a directory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F17362D.6080409@rogers.com> William Muriithi wrote: > Hello > > I have two users with the same name, and I got them because I > configured the system to use LDAP after I had already created a local > account and generated files on the home directory. > > In another word, I have two account both called william, but one with > a UID of 501 and another with a UID 2005. When I check the file > properties of the home directory with "ls -n /home/ | grep william", > they are owned by UID 501, so despite login with the same account > "william", I get permission denied because of the inconsistent UID. > > I have checked chown and it does not have a way of changing UID when > both account has a name "william". Is there a way of changing this > properties without destroying and starting a fresh? I have looked at > all the flags for chown and nothing seem to allow that. > Do you really need both users to be "william"? If not, remove one and then change the owner of that directory. Also, the chown command accepts either name or numericID. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From michaelgalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 21:18:00 2012 From: michaelgalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org (Michael Galea) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:18:00 -0500 Subject: Changing the UID number of a directory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F173708.9060906@ruggedcom.com> On 18/01/12 03:02 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Hello > > I have two users with the same name, and I got them because I > configured the system to use LDAP after I had already created a local > account and generated files on the home directory. > > In another word, I have two account both called william, but one with > a UID of 501 and another with a UID 2005. When I check the file > properties of the home directory with "ls -n /home/ | grep william", > they are owned by UID 501, so despite login with the same account > "william", I get permission denied because of the inconsistent UID. > > I have checked chown and it does not have a way of changing UID when > both account has a name "william". Is there a way of changing this > properties without destroying and starting a fresh? I have looked at > all the flags for chown and nothing seem to allow that. > > Regards > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Won't this work? find / -xdev -uid 2005 -print -exec chown 501 {} \; find / -xdev -gid 2005 -print -exec chgrp 501 {} \; -- Michael Galea -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 21:20:04 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:04 -0500 Subject: Changing the UID number of a directory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120118212004.GX27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 03:02:44PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > I have two users with the same name, and I got them because I > configured the system to use LDAP after I had already created a local > account and generated files on the home directory. > > In another word, I have two account both called william, but one with > a UID of 501 and another with a UID 2005. When I check the file > properties of the home directory with "ls -n /home/ | grep william", > they are owned by UID 501, so despite login with the same account > "william", I get permission denied because of the inconsistent UID. > > I have checked chown and it does not have a way of changing UID when > both account has a name "william". Is there a way of changing this > properties without destroying and starting a fresh? I have looked at > all the flags for chown and nothing seem to allow that. find with -uid 501 -exec chown 2005 \; should work. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 21:32:06 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:32:06 -0500 Subject: PGP Key signing, February 7 Message-ID: Ludovic Hirlimann , who's one of the QA guys on the Mozilla project, is holding a key signing party at the Mozilla offices. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Keysigning party will happen in the Toronto mozilla office at : 366 Adelaide St W, Suite 500 Toronto, Ontario Canada, M5V 1R9 at 7pm in order to people to attend. If you plan on attending let me know and send me your public key and I'll make a signing sheet with fingerprints and names. -------------------------------------- If people are interested, please contact him directly. This is something that some TLUG folk have been interested in, at times that has definitely not happened in a while. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 21:34:36 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:34:36 -0500 Subject: Changing the UID number of a directory In-Reply-To: <20120118212004.GX27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120118212004.GX27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Thanks guys > > find with -uid 501 -exec chown 2005 \; should work. This did work. I seem to have assumed that man page implied the name only and was expecting a special flag to deal with UID. Thanks again all. Highly appreaciate > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 22:25:25 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:25:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction Message-ID: I got this from slashdot -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 23:18:46 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:18:46 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:25 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Incredibly encouraging! In keeping with what I'd consider the most legitimate/most vitally critical criticism made at the recent meeting, this is the sort of thing to be paying goodly attention to. I suspect that there's something of an ongoing battle to be found here; all those "AJAX" applications that embed JavaScript into your browser are something of an "arms race" that will tend to increase memory consumption of the web browser. To have some efforts to fight back against that consumption gives some hope that we mayn't expire of consumption (which is the old way of describing tuberculosis). No doubt Google's Chrome team are watching this; similar issues doubtless affect them. I'd be keen to see similar pressure given to projects like Gnome and KDE which have grand, complex architectures that have sufficiently vaulting edifices that they have plenty of room for similar kinds of abuse of limited system resources. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Jan 18 23:18:58 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:18:58 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:25 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Incredibly encouraging! In keeping with what I'd consider the most legitimate/most vitally critical criticism made at the recent meeting, this is the sort of -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 00:45:52 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:45:52 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1767C0.7040503@utoronto.ca> On 1/18/2012 6:18 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:25 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> > I'd be keen to see similar pressure given to projects like Gnome and > KDE which have grand, complex architectures that have sufficiently > vaulting edifices that they have plenty of room for similar kinds of > abuse of limited system resources. There was something the other day on Slashdot about LibreOffice developers removing deprecated, unused, or just plain dead code from the codebase: http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/01/14/008236/code-cleanup-culls-libreoffice-cruft http://www.i-programmer.info/news/136-open-source/3607-drive-to-remove-unused-code-in-libreoffice.html Maybe I'm too or prematurely optimistic, but a few cycle of development that are focused on optimizing instead of just throwing more hardware at things would be nice. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 04:18:00 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:18:00 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: <4F1767C0.7040503-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F1767C0.7040503@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20120119041800.GA2457@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 07:45:52PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 1/18/2012 6:18 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:25 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >> > > I'd be keen to see similar pressure given to projects like Gnome and > > KDE which have grand, complex architectures that have sufficiently > > vaulting edifices that they have plenty of room for similar kinds of > > abuse of limited system resources. > > There was something the other day on Slashdot about LibreOffice > developers removing deprecated, unused, or just plain dead code from the > codebase: > > http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/01/14/008236/code-cleanup-culls-libreoffice-cruft > http://www.i-programmer.info/news/136-open-source/3607-drive-to-remove-unused-code-in-libreoffice.html > > Maybe I'm too or prematurely optimistic, but a few cycle of development > that are focused on optimizing instead of just throwing more hardware at > things would be nice. There gotta be better way of writing applications. What happened to "small tools, doing one things" ideas of Unix. Like Emacs... no bad example, like Kernel... no not that one, like like... I give up! -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 05:05:03 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:05:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes Message-ID: This is a blog entry from Raymond Chen, a really interesting Microsoft worker: Basically, he justifies NTFS reporting incorrect sizes by saying "it's a lot cheaper than not lying". Apparently NTFS supports hard links. Each link has its own copy of SOME metadata (most usefully file size). The metadata in a directory entry gets updated when the file handle created from that directory entry is closed (and perhaps when it is opened). So if hard links were ever used seriously in NTFS, there would be a lot of lying. If the file has been appended to since the last open or close of that directory entry, then it will be wrong too. So the lying isn't just to do with hard links. Since directory traversal in FAT gave you this metadata, they felt they had to give it to you in NTFS. Rather than get it right (possibly slow), they decided that it would be better to be fast and wrong. Yuck. The FindFirstFile manual seems to admit to this lying, but in a minimizing way. Note In rare cases, file information on NTFS file systems may not be current at the time you call this function. To be assured of getting the current file information, call the GetFileInformationByHandle function. That description does not make the problem clear to me as a programmer. "Rare" isn't really a useful characterization. Actually, there seems to be more questionable metadata. See I bet that only the last two field of the datastructure are reliable: cFileName and cAlternateFilename (the 8.3 filename). In that FindFirstFile manual, I found the following rather odd directive: If you are writing a 32-bit application to list all the files in a directory and the application may be run on a 64-bit computer, you should call the Wow64DisableWow64FsRedirectionfunction before calling FindFirstFile and call Wow64RevertWow64FsRedirection after the last call to FindNextFile. For more information, see File System Redirector. So 32-bit applications have to be 64-bit aware? Wow indeed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 05:19:58 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:19:58 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: <20120119041800.GA2457-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4F1767C0.7040503@utoronto.ca> <20120119041800.GA2457@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F17A7FE.6030105@utoronto.ca> On 1/18/2012 11:18 PM, William Park wrote: >> Maybe I'm too or prematurely optimistic, but a few cycle of development >> that are focused on optimizing instead of just throwing more hardware at >> things would be nice. > > There gotta be better way of writing applications. What happened to > "small tools, doing one things" ideas of Unix. Like Emacs... no bad > example, like Kernel... no not that one, like like... I give up! At $dayjob we've been working with this pipeline from source .doc files: recode -> utf8 unrtf -> html tidy -> xml xmllint xalan a few perl scripts to reorder elements a php cli script to convert to CSV sed & awk to clean incorrect elements, populate empty fields The result is a nicely formatted CSV file containing HTML5 markup. Then into Drupal it goes using feeds import functionality. Pretty fun and neat stuff. These very small utilities all chained together with a single bash script are brilliantly reliable and robust ways to accomplish the task given highly variable source material. I don't want to even imagine how difficult it would be using something like libreoffice from the command line with macros. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 06:32:03 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:32:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | Apparently NTFS supports hard links. If this report is true, its successor will not: That sure suggests that nobody used them. Extended attributes go too. Not exactly sure what they are, but perhaps that means that they can get dropped from Linux ExtN filesystems (assuming that they are the same thing and are only there to make extN semantics a superset of NTFS semantics). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 12:47:18 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:47:18 -0500 Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1810D6.1020002@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Extended attributes go too. Not exactly sure what they are, but > perhaps that means that they can get dropped from Linux ExtN > filesystems (assuming that they are the same thing and are only there > to make extN semantics a superset of NTFS semantics). Extended attributes were used in OS/2 and could support up to 64KB of meta data. Windows NT could run character mode OS/2 1.x apps, so that's probably why extended attributes were supported in NTFS. Microsoft also developed the HPFS file system, used in OS/2, back when they were partners with IBM in developing OS/2. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 16:30:23 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:30:23 -0500 Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes In-Reply-To: <4F1810D6.1020002-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F1810D6.1020002@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120119163023.GY27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 07:47:18AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Extended attributes were used in OS/2 and could support up to 64KB > of meta data. Windows NT could run character mode OS/2 1.x apps, so > that's probably why extended attributes were supported in NTFS. > Microsoft also developed the HPFS file system, used in OS/2, back > when they were partners with IBM in developing OS/2. NT 3.x even included HPFS support. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 17:01:08 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:01:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes In-Reply-To: <4F1810D6.1020002-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F1810D6.1020002@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | Extended attributes were used in OS/2 and could support up to 64KB of meta | data. Windows NT could run character mode OS/2 1.x apps, so that's probably | why extended attributes were supported in NTFS. Microsoft also developed the | HPFS file system, used in OS/2, back when they were partners with IBM in | developing OS/2. What were they actually used for? As far as I know, there is no strong culture / convention for using this capability in Linux. As far as I'm concerned, all it accomplishes is to break the "a file is a bucket of bytes" model of UNIX files. So tar won't work as a backup, cp won't work to copy a file, etc -- many utilities are broken or need(ed) revision. Extended attributes surely don't matter in Linux since I've been able to ignore them up to now. The beauty of UNIX compared with its precursors was simplicity. I moved to UNIX from IBM OS/360. Files there had all kinds of attributes that optimized how I/O was performed but actually just made file I/O complicated. Files had "record formats" (how file blocks were to be broken into records), block sizes, record sizes, printer control types, indices, and more. UNIX had "just a bucket of bytes" (plus, I admit, modest, fixed, simple metadata). In MacOS (pre-OSX) the "resource fork" of each file was important and there were strong conventions on how it was used. So much so that Resedit (the resource fork editor) was a very powerful tool for customization without needing access to source code or being a programmer. I don't know how OSX resolved its twin heritages. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 17:08:38 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:08:38 -0500 Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes In-Reply-To: References: <4F1810D6.1020002@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120119170838.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 12:01:08PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > What were they actually used for? > > As far as I know, there is no strong culture / convention for using > this capability in Linux. As far as I'm concerned, all it > accomplishes is to break the "a file is a bucket of bytes" model of > UNIX files. So tar won't work as a backup, cp won't work to copy a > file, etc -- many utilities are broken or need(ed) revision. > > Extended attributes surely don't matter in Linux since I've been able > to ignore them up to now. > > The beauty of UNIX compared with its precursors was simplicity. I > moved to UNIX from IBM OS/360. Files there had all kinds of > attributes that optimized how I/O was performed but actually just made > file I/O complicated. Files had "record formats" (how file blocks > were to be broken into records), block sizes, record sizes, printer > control types, indices, and more. UNIX had "just a bucket of bytes" > (plus, I admit, modest, fixed, simple metadata). > > In MacOS (pre-OSX) the "resource fork" of each file was important and > there were strong conventions on how it was used. So much so that Resedit > (the resource fork editor) was a very powerful tool for customization > without needing access to source code or being a programmer. > > I don't know how OSX resolved its twin heritages. In OS X applications are now directories with resource files, icon files, executables for different CPU architectures and 32/64bit,etc. So they look like a file in the GUI, but really are a directory. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 17:16:04 2012 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:16:04 -0500 Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes In-Reply-To: References: <4F1810D6.1020002@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 12:01 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > What were they actually used for? > > As far as I know, there is no strong culture / convention for using > this capability in Linux. As far as I'm concerned, all it > accomplishes is to break the "a file is a bucket of bytes" model of > UNIX files. So tar won't work as a backup, cp won't work to copy a > file, etc -- many utilities are broken or need(ed) revision. > > Extended attributes surely don't matter in Linux since I've been able > to ignore them up to now. > > The beauty of UNIX compared with its precursors was simplicity. I > moved to UNIX from IBM OS/360. Files there had all kinds of > attributes that optimized how I/O was performed but actually just made > file I/O complicated. Files had "record formats" (how file blocks > were to be broken into records), block sizes, record sizes, printer > control types, indices, and more. UNIX had "just a bucket of bytes" > (plus, I admit, modest, fixed, simple metadata). > > In MacOS (pre-OSX) the "resource fork" of each file was important and > there were strong conventions on how it was used. So much so that Resedit > (the resource fork editor) was a very powerful tool for customization > without needing access to source code or being a programmer. > > I don't know how OSX resolved its twin heritages. > OSX makes heavy use of extended attributes. See http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/08/mac-os-x-10-6.ars/3 (the "Installation footprint" section) for some details. And resource forks have been re-purposed, per that same article. The same author has written quite a few similarly exhaustive reviews of various versions of OSX over the years which make for interesting reading for the casual observer/non-OSX user. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 17:23:22 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:23:22 -0500 Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes In-Reply-To: References: <4F1810D6.1020002@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F18518A.5090205@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > What were they actually used for? All kinds of stuff. An app developer could create their own attributes. As an example, I used to access CompuServe with an app called "Golden Compass". I'd often download zipped files using it. GC would set the extended attributes of the zip file with history, such as download date, the contents of a text file (FILE_ID.DIZ) that zip files often included, access date & time, key words and all kinds of other stuff and everything in the extended attributes was searchable. The icon was stored in there as well, as well as all the "shadows" (multiple instances of the object in various locations. REXX apps would be interpreted and the parsed version stored in the EAs for faster execution. Extended attributes could do all this and much, much more. It is these extended attributes that made the OS/2 "Workplace Shell" desktop so powerful. I have never seen any other desktop that can come anywhere near to what the WPS could do. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 19:17:32 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:17:32 -0500 Subject: CuBox Message-ID: Saw this reporting in the availability of a pretty-itty-bitty-ARM-based system http://suihkulokki.blogspot.com/2012/01/cubox.html It's not as small or cheap as the Raspberry Pi device, but has a lot more I/O connectors going on, so it is interesting... http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 20:08:01 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120119200801.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 02:17:32PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > Saw this reporting in the availability of a pretty-itty-bitty-ARM-based system > http://suihkulokki.blogspot.com/2012/01/cubox.html > > It's not as small or cheap as the Raspberry Pi device, but has a lot > more I/O connectors going on, so it is interesting... > http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox That's pretty darn cute. Similar to the i.MX53 QSB I have (although the i.MX doesn't have a case, but does have twice the ram and runs a bit faster). Would make an excellent mythtv frontend. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 22:04:32 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:04:32 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F189370.30101@the-wire.com> On 01/19/2012 02:17 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > Saw this reporting in the availability of a pretty-itty-bitty-ARM-based system > http://suihkulokki.blogspot.com/2012/01/cubox.html > > It's not as small or cheap as the Raspberry Pi device, but has a lot > more I/O connectors going on, so it is interesting... > http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox Is it really $135 ? That's in the ballpark of Mini-ITX systems, which run vanilla Linux releases. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 22:47:17 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:47:17 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: <4F189370.30101-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F189370.30101@the-wire.com> Message-ID: On 19 January 2012 17:04, Mel Wilson wrote: > On 01/19/2012 02:17 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: >> >> Saw this reporting in the availability of a pretty-itty-bitty-ARM-based >> system >> http://suihkulokki.blogspot.com/2012/01/cubox.html >> >> It's not as small or cheap as the Raspberry Pi device, but has a lot >> more I/O connectors going on, so it is interesting... >> http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox > > Is it really $135 ? ?That's in the ballpark of Mini-ITX systems, which run > vanilla Linux releases. Not if you want decent 1080p playback. And the size is a bit different. It's really unfortunate that both this and the Raspberry Pi suffer from proprietary video. There are also plug computers if you're not too worried about the video output. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 23:11:05 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:11:05 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: <4F189370.30101-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F189370.30101@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <20120119231105.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 05:04:32PM -0500, Mel Wilson wrote: > Is it really $135 ? That's in the ballpark of Mini-ITX systems, > which run vanilla Linux releases. What mini itx system can you get that uses that little power, that little space and has that good specs and performance? This thing makes miniITX look huge. -- Len Sorensen -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 19 23:13:13 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:13:13 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: <4F1767C0.7040503-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F1767C0.7040503@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Jamon Camisso > Maybe I'm too or prematurely optimistic, but a few cycle of development > that are focused on optimizing instead of just throwing more hardware at > things would be nice. There's a certain value in that. This has evidently been happening with Firefox, and I suppose something akin has happened with Chromium, including designing with a rather different process model (somewhat more in keeping with "Unix philosophy"). I find it a fascinating thing, when using Chromium-based browsers, that if one misbehaving process for one window gets killed, it has the bad habit of shutting down the processes for A Number Of Evidently Related Windows (Google's services, I'm looking at you!). Some efforts are going into broader kinds of alternatives (uzbl, conkeror, luakit), that is, web browsers that: - start new processes to open new windows - are deeply scriptable It's not all good - I'm not thrilled with the usability; they have a bit too high a learning curve. By starting with "nothing," and forcing the user to build their own interface, this guarantees idiosyncrasy of it all, which doesn't thrill me. The popularity of common add-ons for Firefox and such demonstrates that there *are* common things that people want, and I don't think much is won by playing against that. - There seems to be a temptation to turn this into a single all-singing, all-dancing process, and it seems to me they'd be *more* onto something if they had a split of "The Browser" into - Browser windows - A bookmark and history manager, that *isn't* a web browse, but rather a quite separate process with separate window - A "browser process" manager [I'm not sure exactly what it should do...] - A password manager - A cookie manager The "Unix Way" is for these to not all be 'captive UIs,' but rather separate processes that are useful in their own rights that do useful things for the Other Components Of The System. Thus, the cookie manager captures data surrounding cookies, and allows: a) Browser windows to ask for that data b) Scripted requests to do the same, and to manipulate the cookie data Similar is true for bookmarks, passwords, etc. Many of us know that The Unix Way to do documents is to build *roff files, and set up a pipeline of processes (perhaps in a Makefile) to automagically transform source into output. That's kind of an obvious handling of document management, that's very deeply opposite from the All Singing All Dancing word processor. I'd be interested in seeing something that's more of an in-between, a more "Unixy word processor," with some of the aspects of graphical interaction we see in the "ASAD" (All Singing, All Dancing) WPs. But it doesn't need to tightly integrate spell checking - popping a window to show off recommended improvements in a separate process is a fine idea. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 00:59:05 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:59:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: <20120119200801.GA27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120119200801.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | That's pretty darn cute. Similar to the i.MX53 QSB I have (although | the i.MX doesn't have a case, but does have twice the ram and runs a | bit faster). | | Would make an excellent mythtv frontend. These toys look fun to me. And the prices aren't horrible. As far as I know, none of these kinds of systems has an open source video driver. The ARM world seems to be horrible that way. >From the posting: Biggest disappointment so far is the non-mainline kernel, based on old 2.6.32.9. Some mainline support of Armada 510 exist, but will it work with the proprietary graphics code? In the Raspberry Pi case, the source is closed but they think that they've got a driver that exposes an interface that won't prevent the rest of the system from moving forward. We'll see if that pans out. On there is a link with a description IMX53_11_09_LINUX_MMCODECS: Linux Multimedia Codecs Documentation and Sources 11.09 for i.MX53 for the Quick Start boards. I wonder how that works since Codecs are usually patent-encumbered. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 01:09:05 2012 From: faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Syed Faisal Akber) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:09:05 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F18BEB1.9030001@akber.net> On 12-01-19 02:17 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > Saw this reporting in the availability of a pretty-itty-bitty-ARM-based system > http://suihkulokki.blogspot.com/2012/01/cubox.html > > It's not as small or cheap as the Raspberry Pi device, but has a lot > more I/O connectors going on, so it is interesting... > http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox Chris, You're right in that it's more expensive than Raspberry Pi, but it does have a gigabit Ethernet port instead of 100 Mbit port. It also has a TOSLINK/Optical S/PDIF output and more RAM. It would make a great thin-client or even better XBMC box. 73, Faisal Akber -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 01:19:52 2012 From: faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Syed Faisal Akber) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:19:52 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: References: <20120119200801.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F18C138.3070100@akber.net> On 12-01-19 07:59 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I wonder how that works since Codecs are usually patent-encumbered. > I just checked the download. It's a bunch of shared object libraries (DLL's). You don't need to be GPL'd to link against GPL code dynamically. They keep thinking of more and more methods to get around the GPL these days. 73, Faisal Akber -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 01:55:05 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:55:05 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: <4F18BEB1.9030001-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F18BEB1.9030001@akber.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Syed Faisal Akber wrote: > On 12-01-19 02:17 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: >> >> Saw this reporting in the availability of a pretty-itty-bitty-ARM-based >> system >> http://suihkulokki.blogspot.com/2012/01/cubox.html >> >> It's not as small or cheap as the Raspberry Pi device, but has a lot >> more I/O connectors going on, so it is interesting... >> http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox > > Chris, > > You're right in that it's more expensive than Raspberry Pi, but it does have > a gigabit Ethernet port instead of 100 Mbit port. ?It also has a > TOSLINK/Optical S/PDIF output and more RAM. ? It would make a great > thin-client or even better XBMC box. Absolutely correct. You're getting quite a lot for the extra $100. What would likely be "pretty killer" would be a device with either no or minimal video, but *two* GigE ports, which could be turned into a Mighty Powerful Mighty Small Router. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 02:00:18 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:00:18 -0800 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what's "dual-issue" ARM. is that a form of multicore or HT equivalent On Jan 19, 2012 11:18 AM, "Christopher Browne" wrote: > Saw this reporting in the availability of a pretty-itty-bitty-ARM-based > system > http://suihkulokki.blogspot.com/2012/01/cubox.html > > It's not as small or cheap as the Raspberry Pi device, but has a lot > more I/O connectors going on, so it is interesting... > http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 02:36:52 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:36:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: <4F18C138.3070100-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120119200801.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F18C138.3070100@akber.net> Message-ID: | From: Syed Faisal Akber | On 12-01-19 07:59 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > I wonder how that works since Codecs are usually patent-encumbered. | > | I just checked the download. It's a bunch of shared object libraries (DLL's). | You don't need to be GPL'd to link against GPL code dynamically. Oh, and here I thought "Documentation and Sources" meant source. Silly me. Still, you *could* distribute source code that is patent encumbered. I'm not sure what they mean by codecs. Are these codecs that exploit the video hardware or are they regular CPU codecs? | They keep thinking of more and more methods to get around the GPL these days. Dynamic linking per se isn't an evil work-around. Most video drivers need to live in kernel space (often as modules). There is no stable kernel ABI for modules so binary-only modules are specific to kernel versions and that makes them ephemeral. Not something I want. I think that nVidia has gone to considerable work to make the binary portion of their video drivers fairly agnostic about kernel versions. They have an open-source shim that matches a particular kernel with the binary video driver. Even so, binary drivers have to be updated once in a while. So old nVidia cards are no longer supported on current kernels with the proprietary drivers. I think that the situation in the ARM world is much worse. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 06:41:57 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:41:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes In-Reply-To: References: <4F1810D6.1020002@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: Andrej Marjan | OSX makes heavy use of extended attributes. See | http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/08/mac-os-x-10-6.ars/3 (the | "Installation footprint" section) for some details. And resource forks have | been re-purposed, per that same article. Thanks. The resource fork seems to have been used in an unimportant way. I mean, if you have it, sure, use it like that, but the application does not justify if. The use appears to be: put a compressed object code file (what we used to call a.out) in the resource fork rather than the data fork. The data fork is left then empty. Surely putting the compressed executable in the data fork, with a distinct magic number, would work much better in a UNIX environment. The traditional bag-of-bytes tools would still work (cp, tar, ...). What would break? The extended attributes appear to be useful. They are a continuation of the legacy of older MacOS and would be expected by any Mac user. The "type" and "creator" are much cleaner ways of determining which application owns a data file than the hacky "file extension" convention. The concept of "ownership" is quite useful with the desktop metaphor being so impoverished when it comes to verbs. You point at an Excel spreadsheet file, say "ugh ugh" (the only intransitive verb other than "ugh"), and the system knows you mean "run the creator (Excel) on this file". This metaphor maps fairly poorly onto the UNIX way. But we've done it anyway. We imitated MS Windows which imitated MacOS which was inspired by Lisa which was inspired by Bravo, which was inspired by the Alto's system. Anyway, I feel that - resource forks are not a good feature for UNIX / Linux - extended attributes are not a good feature for UNIX / Linux as far as I know Either feature could be good if widely adopted conventions for their use appeared and that convention was worthwhile. That condition seems to have been met by OS/2 and MacOS. If resource forks were useful, I suspect that directories could be used instead. I've sometimes thought that directories and files could be unified differently (but not in Unix). Each file-system object could have a data fork and a directory fork. Then there would be only one kind of node, not two. Symlinks? The work of the devil. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 16:00:16 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:00:16 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120120160016.GC27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 06:00:18PM -0800, Tyler Aviss wrote: > what's "dual-issue" ARM. is that a form of multicore or HT equivalent It means it can issue two instructions to the pipeline in one clock cycle. So probably and interger and a floating point instruction at the same time. It is a pipelined CPU and might even be out of order execution (if it is Cortex A9 style rather than A8 style). It has nothing to do with multithreading or any other multiprocessor like thing. Much simpler and much older idea. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 16:03:13 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:03:13 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: References: <20120119200801.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120120160313.GD27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 07:59:05PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > These toys look fun to me. And the prices aren't horrible. > > As far as I know, none of these kinds of systems has an open source > video driver. The ARM world seems to be horrible that way. Absolutely true at this time. Many people are whining about it. Hopefully some day ARM will design a video core that they release the specs for. > From the posting: > > Biggest disappointment so far is the non-mainline kernel, based on > old 2.6.32.9. Some mainline support of Armada 510 exist, but will > it work with the proprietary graphics code? > > In the Raspberry Pi case, the source is closed but they think that > they've got a driver that exposes an interface that won't prevent the > rest of the system from moving forward. We'll see if that pans out. At least the i.MX5x seems to finally have drivers for the hardware in the mainline kernel (except of course the video engine, although the framebuffer does work, just not the accaleration bits). > On > > there is a link with a description > > IMX53_11_09_LINUX_MMCODECS: Linux Multimedia Codecs > Documentation and Sources 11.09 for i.MX53 for the Quick Start > boards. > > I wonder how that works since Codecs are usually patent-encumbered. Well if the codecs are provided as a binary blob for the DSP and some source code for loading it and providing an API, then that would work. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 16:06:02 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:06:02 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: References: <20120119200801.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F18C138.3070100@akber.net> Message-ID: <20120120160602.GE27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 09:36:52PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Oh, and here I thought "Documentation and Sources" meant source. > Silly me. > > Still, you *could* distribute source code that is patent encumbered. > > I'm not sure what they mean by codecs. Are these codecs that exploit > the video hardware or are they regular CPU codecs? Almost certainly the video hardware, since it appears to have the ARM MALI video core. > Dynamic linking per se isn't an evil work-around. > > Most video drivers need to live in kernel space (often as modules). > There is no stable kernel ABI for modules so binary-only modules are > specific to kernel versions and that makes them ephemeral. Not > something I want. They don't really have to. All you need in kernel space is a stub that can talk to the hardware. The actual logic could be in user space. > I think that nVidia has gone to considerable work to make the binary > portion of their video drivers fairly agnostic about kernel versions. > They have an open-source shim that matches a particular kernel with > the binary video driver. Even so, binary drivers have to be updated > once in a while. So old nVidia cards are no longer supported on > current kernels with the proprietary drivers. They do drop support for very old cards once in a while. It is quite old hardware though. > I think that the situation in the ARM world is much worse. Actually it seems pretty similar to the nvidia case. You have open source drivers to use the video as a frame buffer with some minimal accaleration of scrolling and such. If you want openGL or video decoding though you need some binary blob to do it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 20 22:38:06 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:38:06 -0500 Subject: why NTFS reports incorrect file sizes In-Reply-To: References: <4F1810D6.1020002@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120120223806.GA27783@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 01:41:57AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote > The concept of "ownership" is quite useful with the desktop metaphor > being so impoverished when it comes to verbs. You point at an Excel > spreadsheet file, say "ugh ugh" (the only intransitive verb other > than "ugh"), and the system knows you mean "run the creator (Excel) > on this file". A couple of comments 1) This concept works at Microsoft's address (1 Microsoft Way... yes, it really exists). What happens if there is more than one program that can work on a file? In linux a spreadsheet can be worked on by gnumeric, libreoffice, openoffice, koffice, and who knows what else. Ditto for sound files that can be played by mpg123, mpg321, mplayer, etc. etc. 2) And this was part of the mechanism behind the Windows KLEZ and Sircam viruses. The viruses were standard Windows EXE files, but renamed with a .WAV or .MID extension. The email program looked at the extension, and said... "look, a harmless sound file; let's play it". The file was passed to the OS, which checked the file's "magic", determined that it was really an executable, and proceeded to execute it... oops. Both points 1 and 2 above illustrate a major problem with the idea that the file tells the OS how what to do. This is DRM++. I want to control my computer, not surrender control to files I download, even if it's from a "reputable media company". Sony rootkits anyone? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 06:11:41 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:11:41 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: References: <4F18BEB1.9030001@akber.net> Message-ID: <4F1A571D.3080102@ss.org> On 01/19/2012 08:55 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: [...] > What would likely be "pretty killer" would be a device with either no > or minimal video, but *two* GigE ports, which could be turned into a > Mighty Powerful Mighty Small Router. Chris, If your looking for something with Dual GigE, then the Dreamplug is the device most likely to meet your needs. http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/p-41-dreamplug-devkit.aspx Admittedly, your dropping back to an ARMv5 instruction set and half the memory of the Cubox. In trade you do get wireless b/g/n and bluetooth though. I actually own one of these devices if you wanted to get a look at it. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 17:09:02 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:09:02 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: <4F1A571D.3080102-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4F18BEB1.9030001@akber.net> <4F1A571D.3080102@ss.org> Message-ID: <4F1AF12E.2070604@gmail.com> On 12-01-21 01:11 , Scott Sullivan wrote: > > If your looking for something with Dual GigE, then the Dreamplug is the > device most likely to meet your needs. Ah, this looks like a sensible redesign of the GuruPlug Server+, which had serious overheating problems. My SheevaPlug is still doing sterling duty as a simple file server. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 17:18:02 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:18:02 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one Message-ID: Morning I have a system that is maxing up the disk space and was trying to find a logs to purge. The odd thing is, the root of the log directory reports 3.6G, but all the logs file living on that directory do not even come close to the sum of all the logs file size added up. du -h /var/log 4.0K /var/log/unattended-upgrades 4.0K /var/log/apparmor 4.0K /var/log/landscape 4.0K /var/log/dist-upgrade 56K /var/log/apt 40K /var/log/ConsoleKit 824K /var/log/exim4 4.0K /var/log/news 4.0K /var/log/jetty 12K /var/log/fsck 3.6G /var/log Why would that happen? How would I fix it? Someone seem this before? Really odd, or I am missing something fundamental Thanks in advance and great weekend William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 17:22:47 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:22:47 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1AF467.1010603@gmail.com> be aware that if you delete a log file, i.e. say apache access or error log, the space is not reclaimed until the process is restarted (at least that has been my experience). So perhaps you deleted files, and the space hasn't been reclaimed? Also look at . files that may not be showing in your list. maybe lsof would help. -tl On 01/21/2012 12:18 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Morning > > I have a system that is maxing up the disk space and was trying to > find a logs to purge. The odd thing is, the root of the log directory > reports 3.6G, but all the logs file living on that directory do not > even come close to the sum of all the logs file size added up. > > du -h /var/log > 4.0K /var/log/unattended-upgrades > 4.0K /var/log/apparmor > 4.0K /var/log/landscape > 4.0K /var/log/dist-upgrade > 56K /var/log/apt > 40K /var/log/ConsoleKit > 824K /var/log/exim4 > 4.0K /var/log/news > 4.0K /var/log/jetty > 12K /var/log/fsck > 3.6G /var/log > > Why would that happen? How would I fix it? Someone seem this before? > Really odd, or I am missing something fundamental > > Thanks in advance and great weekend > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 17:27:42 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:27:42 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:18 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Morning > > I have a system that is maxing up the disk space and was trying to > find a logs to purge. ?The odd thing is, the root of the log directory > reports 3.6G, but all the logs file living on that directory do not > even come close to the sum of all the logs file size added up. > > du -h /var/log > 4.0K ? ?/var/log/unattended-upgrades > 4.0K ? ?/var/log/apparmor > 4.0K ? ?/var/log/landscape > 4.0K ? ?/var/log/dist-upgrade > 56K ? ? /var/log/apt > 40K ? ? /var/log/ConsoleKit > 824K ? ?/var/log/exim4 > 4.0K ? ?/var/log/news > 4.0K ? ?/var/log/jetty > 12K ? ? /var/log/fsck > 3.6G ? ?/var/log > > Why would that happen? ?How would I fix it? ?Someone seem this before? > ?Really odd, or I am missing something fundamental I have seen this phenomenon when a file has been removed while a process is still writing to it. >From the directory structure perspective, that file is no longer accessible, but it's still being written to. That could happen if you have: a) A process writing to the log file, then b) Another process (say, a log rotator) renames the file, and then unlinks it, while a) still has the file open. A reboot would (ahem!) resolve this silently; close out the process that's writing to the file, and the unlinking completes. That's overkill - it really suffices to kill the single process that's writing to the file. I expect you could use fuser to find the process, but leave that as exercise to the reader :-) -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 17:52:30 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:52:30 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christopher and Ted > > I have seen this phenomenon when a file has been removed while a > process is still writing to it. > > From the directory structure perspective, that file is no longer > accessible, but it's still being written to. > > That could happen if you have: > a) A process writing to the log file, then > b) Another process (say, a log rotator) renames the file, and then > unlinks it, while a) still has the file open. > Hmm, its really possible this is the problem. I have cleaned up the logs twice and have done so when the services were still running. Will have to restart the service later and hopes this will fix it Thanks again for the pointer William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From Alexander.Short-V7Ve2fXh0sTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 18:08:53 2012 From: Alexander.Short-V7Ve2fXh0sTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Alexander Short) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:08:53 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Never seem to have this problem when I echo '' > apache.log vs an rm. -- Alexander Short Associate Director, IT Operations Iovate Health Sciences Inc. 381 North Service Road West Oakville, ON L6M 0H4 www.iovate.com E-mail: alexander.short at iovate.com Phone: 905.678.4024 Toll-Free: 1.888.334.4448 x 4024 Cell: 416.317.9924 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic transmission and any attachments hereto are intended for the confidential use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential information belonging to Iovate. You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action, based on the contents of this electronic transmission and without Iovate?s express authorization, is strictly prohibited. If you have reason to believe that you have received this transmission in error, please notify immediately by return e-mail and delete and destroy this communication. [Sent from a BlackBerry Wireless Device] ----- Original Message ----- From: William Muriithi [mailto:william.muriithi at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 12:52 PM To: tlug at ss.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Riddle me on this one Christopher and Ted > > I have seen this phenomenon when a file has been removed while a > process is still writing to it. > > From the directory structure perspective, that file is no longer > accessible, but it's still being written to. > > That could happen if you have: > a) A process writing to the log file, then > b) Another process (say, a log rotator) renames the file, and then > unlinks it, while a) still has the file open. > Hmm, its really possible this is the problem. I have cleaned up the logs twice and have done so when the services were still running. Will have to restart the service later and hopes this will fix it Thanks again for the pointer William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 18:29:38 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:29:38 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1B0412.1040303@ve3syb.ca> On 12-01-21 12:52 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Hmm, its really possible this is the problem. I have cleaned up the > logs twice and have done so when the services were still running. Some processes (ie. apache) respond to a signal that makes them close the current log and start a fresh one. You can check if that is possible with the processes you are running. You can also check if logrotate knows how to handle the logs of the processes you are running so they don't get too large. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 20:16:20 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:16:20 -0500 Subject: PGP Key signing, February *8* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1B1D14.50609@gmail.com> Ludovic just advised me that it's on the 8th. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 21 22:48:02 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:48:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | I have seen this phenomenon when a file has been removed while a | process is still writing to it. Of course you are right, but I think that the principles deserve to be clearly stated: A file can have one or more names within the filesystem (hard links) When the last link has been deleted, and no process has the file open, the file will be deleted. Processes can have files open for read or write. =============== Log files are a special case of this. You can truncate a log file echo >/var/log/whatever This will free the space but leave the file. Somewhat confusing. The logging system has ways for rolling over logs. I don't remember them, but they are what you want to use if you space is eaten by a log file. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 22 03:12:46 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:12:46 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 5:48 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: Decidedly a fuller explanation than I gave... > The logging system has ways for rolling over logs. ?I don't remember > them, but they are what you want to use if you space is eaten by a log > file. Actually, I would characterize it in something of an opposite way... Log rotators switch over the files so that the log data gets 'sucked out' into a secondary file, and then truncates it from the "main" file. If you have actually run out of disk space, log rotation won't actually help, as the rotation process temporarily needs that there be enough free space to capture the data that is being rotated out of the "main" log file. But assuming you're not actually out of space, this process "sucks" the early portions of the log file out into another file, whilst not interrupting the process being logged which wants to keep writing out information about its activities at the end of the log file. By doing that regularly, and dropping the eldest log files, this restricts the space being chewed up by log files. Unfortunately, if you get to the point where: a) You're actually out of space, there's no place for the rotation process to do its work. There is good analogy here to doing backups. You need to set up log rotation *before* you need it, just as you need to set up backups *before* you need them. If you don't have a backup, and have a problem that requires one, you're Outta Luck. Likewise, if you haven't set up log rotation, "when you run out of disk space" is too late a point for rotation to really help. It's not as bad as lacking backups; it ought to be reasonable to delete a log file or three, or "echo '' > something.log", to empty something out. b) If the only remaining file descriptor is held by some live process, and the file is otherwise unlinked, log rotation will also do you no good, as it has no way of getting at the file to suck data out of it. Frankly, at that moment, you pretty much need to "kick" the process holding the file descriptor, to make it give it up. Whether that's something like "kill -HUP" or "kill -9" depends on what signals the process is prepared to recognize. For anyone interested in more details take a look at the source code to logrotate: http://logrotate.sourcearchive.com/downloads/3.7.1/ See the function copyTruncate() in logrotate.c -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 22 03:30:40 2012 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:30:40 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1B82E0.3030903@rogers.com> On 21/01/12 10:12 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > a) You're actually out of space, there's no place for the rotation > process to do its work. Couldn't the rotation process use file space from a different disk partition to accomplish its work? > b) If the only remaining file descriptor is held by some live process, > and the file is otherwise unlinked, log rotation will also do you no > good, as it has no way of getting at the file to suck data out of it. Would this work: - attach to live process with a debugger - figure out which file descriptor corresponded to the log file - poke a program into memory at some innocuous location - the program would copy the log file to another file (on another disk partition) - then the original log file could be truncated -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 22 03:58:53 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:58:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: ARM video drivers [was: Re: CuBox] In-Reply-To: References: <20120119200801.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | As far as I know, none of these kinds of systems has an open source | video driver. The ARM world seems to be horrible that way. A bit of good news. Not yet useful, but still ... "An Open-Source, Reverse-Engineered Mali GPU Driver" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 22 04:00:42 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:00:42 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: <4F1B82E0.3030903-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F1B82E0.3030903@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:30 PM, Yanni Chiu wrote: > On 21/01/12 10:12 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: >> >> a) You're actually out of space, there's no place for the rotation >> process to do its work. > > Couldn't the rotation process use file space from a different disk partition > to accomplish its work? Sure, but the complexity of the mechanism just went up, and you're now injuring another filesystem (by chewing up its space). And the fact that you're needing to switch filesystems because one of the files is filling it up seems to indicate that the log rotation system wasn't functioning in the first place. Any time I have had such problems with log files filling things up, the trouble has been that the offending file wasn't being rotated due to some failure of either configuration or of the functioning of the log rotator. It doesn't much help to enhance the log rotator to grasp at additional straws if it's not running... >> b) If the only remaining file descriptor is held by some live process, >> and the file is otherwise unlinked, log rotation will also do you no >> good, as it has no way of getting at the file to suck data out of it. > > > Would this work: > - attach to live process with a debugger > - figure out which file descriptor corresponded to the log file > - poke a program into memory at some innocuous location > - the program would copy the log file to another file (on another disk > partition) > - then the original log file could be truncated Something like that. I imagine that some "rooty" process could turn an inode reference back into a file. By downloading the sources to logrotate, I think I've done my system call investigations for the day; I'll leave that exercise to someone else :-). But I also step back to the backup analogy... It's too late to start worrying about backups *after* your disk fails. It'll take heroic efforts to rectify the log file problem after the fact. Most likely, it's sufficient to kill the offending process, "echo '' > some_extraordinarily_large_file.log", and make sure that the file gets added to the rotation regimen for next time. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 22 04:30:29 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:30:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 5:48 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | Decidedly a fuller explanation than I gave... | | > The logging system has ways for rolling over logs. ?I don't remember | > them, but they are what you want to use if you space is eaten by a log | > file. | | Actually, I would characterize it in something of an opposite way... | | Log rotators switch over the files so that the log data gets 'sucked | out' into a secondary file, and then truncates it from the "main" | file. Of course you are right: log rotation doesn't generally reduce space requirements NOW. It might in the case where it deletes the oldest logs and those logs are large. Compression would help, but again, not NOW (during compression, space is needed for both the original and the compressed file). What I was really thinking (but didn't say) is that any log rotation system must solve the problem of getting the log file closed for the rotation to take effect. You really have to go back to how programs log things. I think that they are all creatively different. If they use syslog(3), the actual file writing will be done by syslogd(8). So it is the only program that needs to be kicked to close the log file (& likely reopen a different file with the same name). According to the manpages on my system, a SIGHUP to syslogd should do the trick. So it seems to me (which means: I have made this all up), log rotation would be: rename all log file, possibly deleting oldest ones and compressing less old ones, and signal syslogd with a SIGHUP to have it close and reopen the log files. This may be optimistic: my suspicion is that logging daemons is where there has been some creativity in the distro worlds. Furthermore, I think that many programs think that they know how to log better than syslog(8) provides. The logrotate(8) example /etc/logrotate.conf certainly shows that several things (eg. apache) do their own logging. How you discover this for each application of interest seems like a mess. Sidenote: many programmers don't know how to correctly handle signals in C. In particular, the only safe thing to do in a signal handler is to set a flag and return. The program must then check that flag frequently and act accordingly when the flag is found to be set. For example, years ago, I could not convince the main author of PINE that doing too much in a signal handler was why PINE was breaking on Solaris. He blamed Solaris. From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 22 04:46:08 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:46:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: <4F1B82E0.3030903@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | Something like that. I imagine that some "rooty" process could turn | an inode reference back into a file. By downloading the sources to | logrotate, I think I've done my system call investigations for the | day; I'll leave that exercise to someone else :-). I think logrotate expects that /etc/logrotate.conf will specify the hammer with which to hit the offendor over the head. An inode (in this case) IS a file. Perhaps you mean a pathname. There may not be a normal one -- all the hard links gone. But there is always (yuck) /proc/PID/fd/N. For each process PID, and file descriptor N open in process PID, /proc/PID/fd/N is a sort of symbolic link to that file. I say "sort of" because it works even if the file has no pathname. A real symlink cannot do that. At least I think it works. [hugh at redclaw ~]$ ls -l /proc/$$/fd total 0 lrwx------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 0 -> /dev/pts/2 lrwx------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 1 -> /dev/pts/2 lrwx------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 2 -> /dev/pts/2 lrwx------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 255 -> /dev/pts/2 lrwx------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 3 -> /home/hugh/.pine-debug1 lrwx------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 4 -> /tmp/.303.174c31 lrwx------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 5 -> /var/spool/mail/hugh lrwx------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 6 -> /tmp/.305.4f6ce lrwx------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 7 -> /home/hugh/mail/1tlug lr-x------ 1 hugh hugh 64 Jan 21 23:35 8 -> /home/hugh/.addressbook This was run in a shell window of the editor that I'm running to compose this message under ALPINE. I would say that it shows an ALPINE bug -- file descriptors 3-8 have leaked from ALPINE into the subeditor and this is a very bad idea. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 22 05:26:38 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:26:38 -0500 Subject: VoIP (Teksavvy's TekTalk) In-Reply-To: <20120121065155.GA17456-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120121065155.GA17456@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20120122052638.GA4157@node1.opengeometry.net> Sent again, because first one got lost... Today, I switched from Rogers Home Phone to Teksavvy TekTalk. It went well and will pay for itself in 3 months. Instruction says cable modem --> router --> ATA | | computers phone But, I put ATA in front of router, cable modem --> ATA --> router | | phone computers Important: ---------- Make sure you return Rogers Modem/EMTA box on the day of switch-over, and call them 30 days ahead of transfer date. 1. I went to Rogers store today to return the box, but they couldn't accept the return because my account is still active. The account has to be closed first. They said my account will be automatically closed when switch-over takes place. Well, it didn't. The "meter" was still running. I phoned Rogers from the store, and cancelled. They put me through 3 different departments, though. 2. 2 weeks ago, I was told by Rogers that 30 days notice doesn't apply for "porting out" home phone to another party. Now, they say it does, for any kind of termination. So, they are charging me full 30 days. Same thing happened when I switched Cable Internet from Rogers to Teksavvy. They kept the meter running. And, when it exceeded the monthly cap after the switch-over date, they charged me for the bandwidth usage. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From michael-FrGFjTVnvXxAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 22 19:21:00 2012 From: michael-FrGFjTVnvXxAFePFGvp55w at public.gmane.org (Michael Galea) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:21:00 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1C619C.5060305@galeahome.ca> On 01/21/12 23:30, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Christopher Browne > > | On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 5:48 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | Decidedly a fuller explanation than I gave... > | > |> The logging system has ways for rolling over logs. I don't remember > |> them, but they are what you want to use if you space is eaten by a log > |> file. > | > | Actually, I would characterize it in something of an opposite way... > | > | Log rotators switch over the files so that the log data gets 'sucked > | out' into a secondary file, and then truncates it from the "main" > | file. > > Of course you are right: log rotation doesn't generally reduce space > requirements NOW. It might in the case where it deletes the oldest logs > and those logs are large. Compression would help, but again, not NOW > (during compression, space is needed for both the original and the > compressed file). > There are a few scenarios in which log rotation is an answer. You can boost the rate of log rotation so that more closely tracks the target you wish to enforce for /var/logs. You can override individual targets for maximum log sizes specified in logrotate.d by "forcing" the rotate. You can make the metric for rotating the size of the directory as opposed to the size on any individual file in it. You should also ensure your daemons are well behaved and log through syslog, do not allow them to log directly to files in /var/log. This allows you to close open files by restarting syslog. But at this point you have move far away the standard use of logrotate in Linux for desktops. You do these sorts of things on small devices such as embedded routers because you value system stability, as judged by the logging footprint, to be less important then the useful information contained in the logs. The way to get the best of both worlds is to export logging using remote syslog, possibly leaving copies of a few of the more important logs on the router, for local debugging. > What I was really thinking (but didn't say) is that any log rotation > system must solve the problem of getting the log file closed for the > rotation to take effect. > > > You really have to go back to how programs log things. I think > that they are all creatively different. > > If they use syslog(3), the actual file writing will be done by > syslogd(8). So it is the only program that needs to be kicked to > close the log file (& likely reopen a different file with the same > name). According to the manpages on my system, a SIGHUP to syslogd > should do the trick. > > So it seems to me (which means: I have made this all up), log rotation > would be: rename all log file, possibly deleting oldest ones and > compressing less old ones, and signal syslogd with a SIGHUP to have it > close and reopen the log files. > > This may be optimistic: my suspicion is that logging daemons is where > there has been some creativity in the distro worlds. Furthermore, I > think that many programs think that they know how to log better than > syslog(8) provides. > > The logrotate(8) example /etc/logrotate.conf certainly shows that > several things (eg. apache) do their own logging. How you discover > this for each application of interest seems like a mess. > > > Sidenote: many programmers don't know how to correctly handle signals > in C. In particular, the only safe thing to do in a signal handler is > to set a flag and return. The program must then check that flag > frequently and act accordingly when the flag is found to be set. For > example, years ago, I could not convince the main author of PINE that > doing too much in a signal handler was why PINE was breaking on > Solaris. He blamed Solaris. -- Michael Galea -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 05:38:29 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 00:38:29 -0500 Subject: (question) 11 WiFi channels -- which one? Message-ID: <20120123053829.GA8466@node1.opengeometry.net> My Wireless router (Linksys WRT54G) has 11 channels. Which one do I select? My guess is that for single router (my case), it doesn't matter. And, those multiple channels are for multiple wireless routers, where each router will be given different channel. Is that right? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 06:22:13 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:22:13 -0500 Subject: (question) 11 WiFi channels -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20120123053829.GA8466-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120123053829.GA8466@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F1CFC95.8030905@gmail.com> On 01/23/2012 12:38 AM, William Park wrote: > My Wireless router (Linksys WRT54G) has 11 channels. Which one do I > select? My guess is that for single router (my case), it doesn't > matter. And, those multiple channels are for multiple wireless routers, > where each router will be given different channel. Is that right? That and perhaps as I used it , to get a better signal based on partially side stepping interference from other electronic devices (and signals in the neighborhood). -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 06:21:56 2012 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:21:56 -0500 Subject: (question) 11 WiFi channels -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20120123053829.GA8466-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120123053829.GA8466@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F1CFC84.5040208@sobac.com> Check your environment for competing WiFi signals from neighbours, &c. You'll want to pick the channel that has the least interference. A WiFi signal tends to splat itself across three channels, so pick a channel that has lots of room on either side, too. I find the InSSIDer tool from Metageek useful for determining free WiFi space. http://www.metageek.net/products/inssider/ (caution: Javascrippled Web pages and Mono-dependent application) --Bob. Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Voice: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cel: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting On 12-01-23 12:38 AM, William Park wrote: > My Wireless router (Linksys WRT54G) has 11 channels. Which one do I > select? My guess is that for single router (my case), it doesn't > matter. And, those multiple channels are for multiple wireless > routers, where each router will be given different channel. Is that > right? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 07:40:22 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:40:22 -0800 Subject: VoIP (Teksavvy's TekTalk) In-Reply-To: <20120122052638.GA4157-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120121065155.GA17456@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120122052638.GA4157@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: I went through the same "30 days notice" b.s. when porting from my old cellular provider, though it said nothing of such notice on my actual contract (which I had just completed). It seems to be the new vogue in preventing customer migration (or at least giving them one least bill). If your provider is screwing you over, I suggest contacting the CCTS. Though my provider swore up-and-down there was no way I could get a refund, a short while after filing an official complaint they refunded the extra month's charge: https://www.ccts-cprst.ca/en/complaints/complaint-form Hopefully you'll have equal luck. It seems that - unlike certain other four-letter-world regulators - the CCTS still has the back of the consumer. On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 9:26 PM, William Park wrote: > Sent again, because first one got lost... > > Today, I switched from Rogers Home Phone to Teksavvy TekTalk. ?It went > well and will pay for itself in 3 months. ?Instruction says > > ? ?cable modem --> router --> ATA > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ? ? ? ? | > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?computers ? phone > > But, I put ATA in front of router, > > ? ?cable modem --> ATA --> router > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ?| > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? phone ? computers > > Important: > ---------- > Make sure you return Rogers Modem/EMTA box on the day of switch-over, > and call them 30 days ahead of transfer date. > > ? ?1. ?I went to Rogers store today to return the box, but they > ? ?couldn't accept the return because my account is still active. ?The > ? ?account has to be closed first. ?They said my account will be > ? ?automatically closed when switch-over takes place. ?Well, it didn't. > ? ?The "meter" was still running. ?I phoned Rogers from the store, and > ? ?cancelled. ?They put me through 3 different departments, though. > > ? ?2. ?2 weeks ago, I was told by Rogers that 30 days notice doesn't > ? ?apply for "porting out" home phone to another party. ?Now, they say > ? ?it does, for any kind of termination. ?So, they are charging me full > ? ?30 days. > > Same thing happened when I switched Cable Internet from Rogers to > Teksavvy. ?They kept the meter running. ?And, when it exceeded the > monthly cap after the switch-over date, they charged me for the > bandwidth usage. > -- > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2/DCTS/CLA "Computers don't make mistakes. They can, however, execute those provided to them very quickly" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 07:46:34 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:46:34 -0800 Subject: My new PXE project Message-ID: Sharing time ... :-) My new project recently has been setting up a massive PXE server and environment. After dealing with the varying differences in LTSP over the last time I tried, I've had pretty good success. A whole whackload of games, which run very nicely under modern versions of WINE, and boot from LAN = instant LAN party (and when in a mini-ITX box, it's portable too!) The biggest headaches were: modifying the setup to get binary drivers in *without* messing stuff up for alternate video cards getting rid of pulseaudio (runs like crap in wine... I have no idea how ESD/PA became standard given the many longstanding complaints) updating the environment easily (NBD main image with a few extra NFS mounts). moving to a nicer DM (settled on GDM with XFCE, also tried IceWM but it seems not as friendly to screen resizes etc) getting mythtv to work properly inside Has anyone else manager to do something "cool" with PXE? I'd love to hear suggestions for what I can do with it. I'm hoping to get an easily-run antivirus scanner (gotta figure out the local drive mounting) added. Also, if anyone has suggestions on possible ways to have SYSLinux pass off to an ISO or something similar, I'd like to hear it. It would be nice to have a few CD ISO's for various OS installs etc included -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2/DCTS/CLA "Computers don't make mistakes. They can, however, execute those provided to them very quickly" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 11:28:59 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:28:59 -0500 Subject: (question) 11 WiFi channels -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20120123053829.GA8466-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120123053829.GA8466@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 12:38 AM, William Park wrote: > My Wireless router (Linksys WRT54G) has 11 channels. ?Which one do I > select? ?My guess is that for single router (my case), it doesn't > matter. ?And, those multiple channels are for multiple wireless routers, > where each router will be given different channel. ?Is that right? The first thing you want to do is a site scan, see what channel(s) your neighbors are using (ie: if you have 20 neighbors all using channel 1, then channel 1 should be your LAST choice). The next issue to consider is co-channel interference. For the 2.4GHz WiFi signals to not interfere with each other the centre of the signal needs to be 25MHz apart, but the channel assignments for the channels are closer than 25 MHz (sigh, grumble at regulators). What this means is that if you wanted the maximum number of non-interfering channels, you would be looking at 1, 6 and 11 (because channels 2-5 will cause differing amounts of interference to channels 1 and 6. Likewise channels 7-10 will cause differing amounts of interference to channels 6 and 11). In other words my advice see which of the three channels, 1, 6 and 11 are least used in your area, and go there. Further if you have a number of neighbors who have gotten weird and picked, say channel 2 then you want to be on channel 7 or above... To do site scans I use the program WiFi Radar which is available as a standard package for Debian (http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/wifi-radar) and likely most other major Linux distributions... Hope this helps. Colin. P.S. In case anyone in suburbia thinks that detecting 20 WiFi signals is ridiculously high, let me note that from where I am (mid-town Toronto) I have picked up over 50 WiFi signals on a single site scan (though granted, I am likely towards the upper limit as to what anyone would see in the real world). > -- > William > -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 11:39:59 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:39:59 -0500 Subject: (question) 11 WiFi channels -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <20120123053829.GA8466@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F1D470F.9070900@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > For the 2.4GHz WiFi signals to > not interfere with each other the centre of the signal needs to be > 25MHz apart, but the channel assignments for the channels are closer > than 25 MHz (sigh, grumble at regulators). The reason for that is the channels were set for the original 802.11, which did not use as much bandwidth as 802.11b & later. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 11:50:41 2012 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:50:41 -0500 Subject: (question) 11 WiFi channels -- which one? In-Reply-To: <4F1CFC84.5040208-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120123053829.GA8466@node1.opengeometry.net> <4F1CFC84.5040208@sobac.com> Message-ID: On 23 January 2012 01:21, Bob Jonkman wrote: > A WiFi signal tends to splat itself across three channels, [...] And sometimes more than three. Selecting a channel that's not one of the standard non-overlapping ones gives a greater possibility of receiving interference from other Wi-Fi devices, even if none are on the same channel that you're using. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 15:28:56 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:28:56 -0500 Subject: Republished Cisco equipments Message-ID: Morning. I am interested in buying some old but functional Cisco equipment for a lab. I wonder if any of us here would know of a place where I can get them cheaply Specifically, I am looking for: Switches - 3550 and 2950 Routers - 2851 and 3825 I am planning to walk across College street, but frankly, I do not remember seeing any of the shop selling Cisco equipments, just old computers Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 16:34:37 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:34:37 -0500 Subject: Republished Cisco equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:28 AM, William Muriithi wrote: > I am planning to walk across College street, but frankly, I do not > remember seeing any of the shop selling Cisco equipments, just old > computers There was one on the south side, just a block or so west of Spadina, that used to have some UNIX systems lurking about (HP/UX stuff, as I recall). But Cisco stuff is pretty much outside what the PC stores would be expected to carry. Searching on search engines for "used cisco equipment toronto" finds pretty relevant looking links. But I'm not sure it'll be particularly cheap to buy from specialty places... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 17:12:20 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:12:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Republished Cisco equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1327338740.58668.YahooMailNeo@web113408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Try tigerdirect.? They tend to have more "off-leases" than any other places. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Muriithi > To: TLUG mailing list > Cc: > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:28:56 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: Republished Cisco equipments > > Morning. > > I? am interested in buying some old but functional Cisco equipment for > a lab.? I wonder if any of us here would know of a place where I can > get them cheaply > > Specifically, I am looking for: > > Switches - 3550 and 2950 > Routers - 2851 and 3825 > > I am planning to walk across College street, but frankly, I do not > remember seeing any of the shop selling Cisco equipments, just old > computers > > Regards, > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 18:23:30 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:23:30 -0500 Subject: Republished Cisco equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1DA5A2.6090506@dinamis.com> On 01/23/2012 10:28 AM, William Muriithi wrote: > Morning. > > I am interested in buying some old but functional Cisco equipment for > a lab. I wonder if any of us here would know of a place where I can > get them cheaply > > Specifically, I am looking for: > > Switches - 3550 and 2950 > Routers - 2851 and 3825 Hi William, Talk to Ramesh Pon at Micropeer , (416) 444-1881, on Lesmill Rd. and tell him I sent you. He has lots of refurb gear like that. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 18:44:57 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:44:57 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: <4F1A571D.3080102-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4F18BEB1.9030001@akber.net> <4F1A571D.3080102@ss.org> Message-ID: <20120123184457.GF27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 01:11:41AM -0500, Scott Sullivan wrote: > If your looking for something with Dual GigE, then the Dreamplug is > the device most likely to meet your needs. > > http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/p-41-dreamplug-devkit.aspx > > Admittedly, your dropping back to an ARMv5 instruction set and half > the memory of the Cubox. In trade you do get wireless b/g/n and > bluetooth though. And you loose the FPU too I believe. This makes some software a lot slower. > I actually own one of these devices if you wanted to get a look at it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 18:53:30 2012 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:53:30 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120123185330.GH18351@adb.ca> William Muriithi wrote: > I have a system that is maxing up the disk space and was trying to > find a logs to purge. The odd thing is, the root of the log directory > reports 3.6G, but all the logs file living on that directory do not > even come close to the sum of all the logs file size added up. > > du -h /var/log > 4.0K /var/log/unattended-upgrades > 4.0K /var/log/apparmor > 4.0K /var/log/landscape > 4.0K /var/log/dist-upgrade > 56K /var/log/apt > 40K /var/log/ConsoleKit > 824K /var/log/exim4 > 4.0K /var/log/news > 4.0K /var/log/jetty > 12K /var/log/fsck > 3.6G /var/log What you're seeing here is the total space used in /var/log and each of its subdirectories, and most of your space usage is in files that are in /var/log itself. Try: ls -s /var/log and you should see something useful to the tune of a couple of gigabytes. Beyond that, likewise with /var/log/exim4 will show you 824K of logs, and the rest is hardly worth bothering. Note that deleting something like /var/log/messages that syslogd is still writing doesn't free up the space, nor are you likely to want to delete recent information. Past generations of rotated logs eventually need to be deleted, though, and sometimes log rotation is broken and you have a *huge* messages file that needs to be split once in awhile. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 19:04:35 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:04:35 -0500 Subject: CuBox In-Reply-To: <20120123184457.GF27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F18BEB1.9030001@akber.net> <4F1A571D.3080102@ss.org> <20120123184457.GF27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > And you lose the FPU too I believe. ?This makes some software a lot > slower. Yes, none of the GlobalScale units have an ARM with an FPU. I can /almost/ do real time MP3 encoding on my SheevaPlug ... Stewart -- http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 20:50:26 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:50:26 -0500 Subject: ARM video drivers [was: Re: CuBox] In-Reply-To: References: <20120119200801.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120123205026.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:58:53PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier > > | As far as I know, none of these kinds of systems has an open source > | video driver. The ARM world seems to be horrible that way. > > A bit of good news. Not yet useful, but still ... > "An Open-Source, Reverse-Engineered Mali GPU Driver" > Whoo!!! -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 20:53:41 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:53:41 -0500 Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120123205341.GH27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:30:29PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Of course you are right: log rotation doesn't generally reduce space > requirements NOW. It might in the case where it deletes the oldest logs > and those logs are large. Compression would help, but again, not NOW > (during compression, space is needed for both the original and the > compressed file). > > What I was really thinking (but didn't say) is that any log rotation > system must solve the problem of getting the log file closed for the > rotation to take effect. > > > You really have to go back to how programs log things. I think > that they are all creatively different. > > If they use syslog(3), the actual file writing will be done by > syslogd(8). So it is the only program that needs to be kicked to > close the log file (& likely reopen a different file with the same > name). According to the manpages on my system, a SIGHUP to syslogd > should do the trick. > > So it seems to me (which means: I have made this all up), log rotation > would be: rename all log file, possibly deleting oldest ones and > compressing less old ones, and signal syslogd with a SIGHUP to have it > close and reopen the log files. > > This may be optimistic: my suspicion is that logging daemons is where > there has been some creativity in the distro worlds. Furthermore, I > think that many programs think that they know how to log better than > syslog(8) provides. > > The logrotate(8) example /etc/logrotate.conf certainly shows that > several things (eg. apache) do their own logging. How you discover > this for each application of interest seems like a mess. > > > Sidenote: many programmers don't know how to correctly handle signals > in C. In particular, the only safe thing to do in a signal handler is > to set a flag and return. The program must then check that flag > frequently and act accordingly when the flag is found to be set. For > example, years ago, I could not convince the main author of PINE that > doing too much in a signal handler was why PINE was breaking on > Solaris. He blamed Solaris. That's when I stopped using pine. That's a long time ago. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 20:58:50 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:58:50 -0500 Subject: VoIP (Teksavvy's TekTalk) In-Reply-To: <20120122052638.GA4157-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120121065155.GA17456@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120122052638.GA4157@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20120123205850.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:26:38AM -0500, William Park wrote: > Sent again, because first one got lost... > > Today, I switched from Rogers Home Phone to Teksavvy TekTalk. It went > well and will pay for itself in 3 months. Instruction says > > cable modem --> router --> ATA > | | > computers phone > > But, I put ATA in front of router, > > cable modem --> ATA --> router > | | > phone computers Most likely you are only allowed one IP on your cable modem, so unless the ATA does NAT and acts as a router for your router, that is not a good idea. Now if you are allowed multiple IPs then no problem, assuming the ATA has a switch built in. > Important: > ---------- > Make sure you return Rogers Modem/EMTA box on the day of switch-over, > and call them 30 days ahead of transfer date. > > 1. I went to Rogers store today to return the box, but they > couldn't accept the return because my account is still active. The > account has to be closed first. They said my account will be > automatically closed when switch-over takes place. Well, it didn't. > The "meter" was still running. I phoned Rogers from the store, and > cancelled. They put me through 3 different departments, though. > > 2. 2 weeks ago, I was told by Rogers that 30 days notice doesn't > apply for "porting out" home phone to another party. Now, they say > it does, for any kind of termination. So, they are charging me full > 30 days. > > Same thing happened when I switched Cable Internet from Rogers to > Teksavvy. They kept the meter running. And, when it exceeded the > monthly cap after the switch-over date, they charged me for the > bandwidth usage. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 21:07:03 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:07:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: <20120123205341.GH27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120123205341.GH27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1327352823.73181.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > From: Lennart Sorensen > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:30:29PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> Sidenote: many programmers don't know how to correctly handle signals >> in C.? In particular, the only safe thing to do in a signal handler is >> to set a flag and return.? The program must then check that flag >> frequently and act accordingly when the flag is found to be set.? For >> example, years ago, I could not convince the main author of PINE that >> doing too much in a signal handler was why PINE was breaking on >> Solaris.? He blamed Solaris. > > That's when I stopped using pine.? That's a long time ago. Hmm... as one who likes to do a lot in signal handler (simply because it's nicely separated from main program), how much is too much? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 21:16:50 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:16:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: VoIP (Teksavvy's TekTalk) In-Reply-To: <20120123205850.GI27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120121065155.GA17456@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120122052638.GA4157@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120123205850.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1327353410.9539.YahooMailNeo@web113416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > From: Lennart Sorensen >> On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:26:38AM -0500, William Park wrote: >> Sent again, because first one got lost... >> >> Today, I switched from Rogers Home Phone to Teksavvy TekTalk.? It went >> well and will pay for itself in 3 months.? Instruction says >> ? ? >> ? ? cable modem --> router --> ATA >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |? ? ? ? | >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? computers? phone >> >> But, I put ATA in front of router, >> ? ? >> ? ? cable modem --> ATA --> router >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |? ? ? ? | >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? phone? computers > > Most likely you are only allowed one IP on your cable modem, so unless > the ATA does NAT and acts as a router for your router, that is not a > good idea. Yes, it's Linksys SPA-2102.? After looking at the web configuration pages of both ATA and Router, though, putting ATA behind the router may be better option.? Let ATA handle phone, and let router handle routing and QoS. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 23 22:30:27 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:30:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Riddle me on this one In-Reply-To: <1327352823.73181.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <20120123205341.GH27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1327352823.73181.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: | From: William Park | Hmm... as one who likes to do a lot in signal handler (simply because | it's nicely separated from main program), how much is too much? I've simplified this in my mind, and I'm too lazy to look it up, but roughly: - no library routines can be safely called because none is guaranteed to be re-entrant. I seem to remember that longjmp and __exit might be exceptions. Oh, and signalaction, I guess. - if a variable is shared between a signal handler and any other code, it must be declared volatile and its type must be atomic_t. That leaves very little that you can do safely. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 24 01:59:36 2012 From: faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Syed Faisal Akber) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:59:36 -0500 Subject: Republished Cisco equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1E1088.4050802@akber.net> On 12-01-23 10:28 AM, William Muriithi wrote: > Morning. > > I am interested in buying some old but functional Cisco equipment for > a lab. I wonder if any of us here would know of a place where I can > get them cheaply > > Specifically, I am looking for: > > Switches - 3550 and 2950 > Routers - 2851 and 3825 > > I am planning to walk across College street, but frankly, I do not > remember seeing any of the shop selling Cisco equipments, just old > computers > > Regards, > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Try http://www.certificationkits.com/ I purchased a CCNA kit from them including a number routers and switches at the time. The only problem is that they ship using UPS which has enormous brokerage fees. Faisal -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 24 02:04:18 2012 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:04:18 -0500 Subject: Republished Cisco equipments In-Reply-To: <4F1E1088.4050802-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F1E1088.4050802@akber.net> Message-ID: > On 12-01-23 10:28 AM, William Muriithi wrote: >> Morning. >> >> I am interested in buying some old but functional Cisco equipment for >> a lab. I wonder if any of us here would know of a place where I can >> get them cheaply >> >> Specifically, I am looking for: >> >> Switches - 3550 and 2950 >> Routers - 2851 and 3825 >> >> I am planning to walk across College street, but frankly, I do not >> remember seeing any of the shop selling Cisco equipments, just old >> computers >> >> Regards, >> >> William >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Try http://www.certificationkits.com/ I purchased a CCNA kit from them > including a number routers and switches at the time. The only problem > is that they ship using UPS which has enormous brokerage fees. > > Faisal > -- Fedex charge brokerage fees but they are much more reasonable than UPS, especially if you can get the shipper to do the appropriate cross-border paperwork and include it on the outside of the package. If you can get the shipper to use USPS (US Postal Service) then there will be no brokerage charges at all. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 24 04:43:19 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:43:19 -0500 Subject: Republished Cisco equipments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F1E36E7.9080603@utoronto.ca> On 1/23/2012 10:28 AM, William Muriithi wrote: > Morning. > > I am interested in buying some old but functional Cisco equipment for > a lab. I wonder if any of us here would know of a place where I can > get them cheaply > > Specifically, I am looking for: > > Switches - 3550 and 2950 > Routers - 2851 and 3825 Why not try Vyatta[1] in a virtual machine first? Plenty to learn and test there. That and you don't need to have a few U of switches/routers sucking power for a home lab all the time. [1] http://www.vyatta.org/ Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 24 13:36:26 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 08:36:26 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: TASK January Event Reminder Message-ID: TASK is the Toronto Area Security Klatch a group that gets together about computer security issues on ALL platforms. Here is a note about their next meeting, and do note, the "B" in the room number means "basement". ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: TASK Steering Committee Date: Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:46 PM Subject: TASK January Event Reminder =================== January TASK Meeting: ?Forensics and Data Recovery 25 January 2012; 6:00 - 9:00 PM Leslie Dan Pharmacy Building, 144 College Street, Room B150 First TASK event of the year is this week! ?We look forward to seeing you there. Note the second topic and speaker has been updated since our first reminder email. Talk 1: Who's watching the gatekeeper? What is the best way to monitor the activities of your privileged users (system administrators!)? This evenings discussion will cover: - How to address the administrative control audit and investigation challenge - How to incorporate both host data and network data for complete insight and visibility into the matter - How to leverage SIEM Technology to supplement the effort - Practical techniques to secure your network Speaker: Tom Wong, Engineer at AccessData. Prior to joining Accessdata, Tom was a Senior Security Engineer for Microsoft, where he led the Network Security Monitoring and Response team. ?Tom has over 15 years of Information Technology Experience in the software industry. Talk 2: ?Data Recovery ARE YOU A HERO OR A VILLAN? ARE YOU A PROFESSIONAL OR A RUSSIAN ROULETTE PLAYER? ARE YOU A CAUSE OF DATA LOSS OR A SOLUTION PROVIDER? The number one cause of data loss is hardware failure. The number two reason is human error and much, if not most of it is caused or compounded by technicians. This presentation is meant to inform you of many of the reasons for data loss, how to minimize the risk of loss and how to maximize the chance of a successful, cost-effective recovery when losses do occur. You will be presented with information that every professional computer technician should know; but has never been taught. Speaker: R. Douglas Coughey, President, Recovery Force Inc. ?Doug is a member of the High Tech Crime Investigation Association, an associate member of the Ontario Council of Private Investigators and was a participant of the 2003 & 2007 Annual Toronto Fraud Forum co-hosted by the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners (Toronto Chapter) and the Canadian Association of Investigation Units (Trillium Chapter). --------------------------------------------------- About This Month's TASK Sponsor: AccessData AccessData (www.accessdata.com) is the global leader in forensic and eEvidence software. AccessData has recently released its new CyberSecurity Solution that integrates with SIEM Solutions to empower the organization to gain better visibility and insight into what's actually occurring on the network. ?For a brief overview of how this solution works, and the benefits it provides in the market place, please watch this short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRJk9ZwXY5w, or review the marketing brochure which outlines the solution's incident response capabilities: http://accessdata.com/downloads/media/CIRT_brochure.pdf -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Jan 26 21:39:58 2012 From: gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:39:58 -0500 Subject: Robot computer, 1963-style Message-ID: <4F21C82E.8040704@teksavvy.com> AT&T released a short film titled "Robot" that Muppets creator Jim Henson made for Bell in 1963. Amusing. http://thestar.blogs.com/viralvideos/2012/01/robot-computer-1963-style.html -- Glen Strom gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 05:31:08 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 00:31:08 -0500 Subject: Dynamic DNS -- which one? Message-ID: <20120127053108.GA2774@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi All, Many many years ago, I used ZoneEdit.com as dynamic DNS. Is there other DNS service you use or recommend now? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 12:03:13 2012 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:03:13 -0500 Subject: Dynamic DNS -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20120127053108.GA2774-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120127053108.GA2774@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 27 January 2012 00:31, William Park wrote: > Is there other DNS service you use or recommend now? I've used for many year now without any problems or issues. However if you want a free service, it's not as easy with Dyn as it used to be. You can still get one free dynamic address but I think you have to sign up for the DynDNS Pro free trial and then cancel. You also have to sign in to your account at least once a month thereafter to keep it active. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 12:35:53 2012 From: avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Volkov) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:35:53 -0500 Subject: Dynamic DNS -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <20120127053108.GA2774@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: I don't get it why anyone would still sign up for dyn.com. Through the years they have become progressively worse by putting more and more roadblocks in registration and renewal process to make people pay, now you have to go 'pro-trial' just to sign up. I use no-ip.com, they sometimes send me an email saying to renew my subscription, but that is it. I don't have to deal with nearly as much bullshit as dyn.com puts everyone through. Sent from my mobile device. On Jan 27, 2012 7:03 AM, "Scott Allen" wrote: > On 27 January 2012 00:31, William Park wrote: > > Is there other DNS service you use or recommend now? > > I've used for many year now without any problems > or issues. > > However if you want a free service, it's not as easy with Dyn as it > used to be. You can still get one free dynamic address but I think you > have to sign up for the DynDNS Pro free trial and then cancel. You > also have to sign in to your account at least once a month thereafter > to keep it active. > > -- > Scott > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 14:59:39 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:59:39 -0500 Subject: Dynamic DNS -- which one? In-Reply-To: <20120127053108.GA2774-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120127053108.GA2774@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 12:31 AM, William Park wrote: > Hi All, > > Many many years ago, I used ZoneEdit.com as dynamic DNS. > Is there other DNS service you use or recommend now? I use freedns.afraid.org and pay for a premium membership as donation, though basic services are free. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 15:05:57 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:05:57 +0000 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection Message-ID: Hello everyone; After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP address. On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. Fedora: forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X eth0: no IPv6 routers present Ubuntu: [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to fix it. I've been at this for days... Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, just thought I'd zero in on the above first. Thanks, John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 15:13:34 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:13:34 -0500 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. -tl On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: > Hello everyone; > > After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it > (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. > The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of > whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP > address. > > On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with > either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. > > Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. > > Fedora: > > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > Ubuntu: > > [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for > MSI/MSI-X > [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not > good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to > fix it. I've been at this for days... > > Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, > just thought I'd zero in on the above first. > > Thanks, > > John. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 15:16:16 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:16:16 -0800 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: try killing persistent-net-interfaces too in case it's wrong somehow (/etc/udev/rules.d) On Jan 27, 2012 7:14 AM, "ted leslie" wrote: > Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. > -tl > On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: > >> Hello everyone; >> >> After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it >> (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. >> The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of >> whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP >> address. >> >> On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with >> either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. >> >> Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. >> >> Fedora: >> >> forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X >> eth0: no IPv6 routers present >> >> Ubuntu: >> >> [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for >> MSI/MSI-X >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present >> [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X >> [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present >> >> I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not >> good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to >> fix it. I've been at this for days... >> >> Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, >> just thought I'd zero in on the above first. >> >> Thanks, >> >> John. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 15:23:52 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:23:52 -0500 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: lspci -vv i mean. -tl On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:13 AM, ted leslie wrote: > Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. > -tl > > On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: >> >> Hello everyone; >> >> After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it >> (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. >> The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of >> whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP >> address. >> >> On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with >> either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. >> >> Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. >> >> Fedora: >> >> forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X >> eth0: no IPv6 routers present >> >> Ubuntu: >> >> [? 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X >> [? 490.348024] eth0: no[? 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for >> MSI/MSI-X >> [? 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present >> [? 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X >> [? 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present >> >> I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not >> good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to fix >> it. I've been at this for days... >> >> Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, >> just thought I'd zero in on the above first. >> >> Thanks, >> >> John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 15:43:56 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:43:56 -0800 Subject: Dynamic DNS -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <20120127053108.GA2774@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: why does everything need to be free? I've never had issues with their service and the price isn't unreasonable On Jan 27, 2012 4:36 AM, "Alex Volkov" wrote: > I don't get it why anyone would still sign up for dyn.com. Through the > years they have become progressively worse by putting more and more > roadblocks in registration and renewal process to make people pay, now you > have to go 'pro-trial' just to sign up. > > I use no-ip.com, they sometimes send me an email saying to renew my > subscription, but that is it. I don't have to deal with nearly as much > bullshit as dyn.com puts everyone through. > > Sent from my mobile device. > On Jan 27, 2012 7:03 AM, "Scott Allen" wrote: > >> On 27 January 2012 00:31, William Park wrote: >> > Is there other DNS service you use or recommend now? >> >> I've used for many year now without any problems >> or issues. >> >> However if you want a free service, it's not as easy with Dyn as it >> used to be. You can still get one free dynamic address but I think you >> have to sign up for the DynDNS Pro free trial and then cancel. You >> also have to sign in to your account at least once a month thereafter >> to keep it active. >> >> -- >> Scott >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 16:24:57 2012 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:24:57 -0500 Subject: Dynamic DNS -- which one? In-Reply-To: References: <20120127053108.GA2774@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 27 January 2012 10:43, Tyler Aviss wrote: > why does everything need to be free? I've never had issues with their > service and the price isn't unreasonable I should have mentioned that I pay for my Dyn service as well and am satisfied. I pointed out the caveats of their free service in case that's what the OP was looking for. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 16:49:23 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:49:23 +0000 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: ,, Message-ID: Do you mean to delete the file /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules? I don't see persistent-net-interfaces. Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:16:16 -0800 Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org try killing persistent-net-interfaces too in case it's wrong somehow (/etc/udev/rules.d) On Jan 27, 2012 7:14 AM, "ted leslie" wrote: Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. -tl On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: Hello everyone; After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP address. On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. Fedora: forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X eth0: no IPv6 routers present Ubuntu: [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to fix it. I've been at this for days... Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, just thought I'd zero in on the above first. Thanks, John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 17:07:25 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:07:25 +0000 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:23:52 -0500 > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > lspci -vv > i mean. > > -tl Here's what came out - all I get out of it is that the irq's are different for ubuntu and fedora. UBUNTU: ------------- "dmesg eth": [ 0.815136] forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.64. [ 0.815419] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> GSI 23 (level, low) -> IRQ 23 [ 0.815424] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 [ 1.336900] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 @ 13, addr 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 [ 1.336903] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim msi desc-v3 [ 2270.703264] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X [ 2281.216026] eth0: no IPv6 routers present "lspci -vv": 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx- Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- SERR- Kernel driver in use: forcedeth Kernel modules: forcedeth FEDORA: ------------- "dmesg eth": forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.64. forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> GSI 22 (level, low) -> IRQ 22 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 @ 13, addr 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim msi desc-v3 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X eth0: no IPv6 routers present "lspci -vv": 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx+ Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- SERR- Kernel driver in use: forcedeth Kernel modules: forcedeth I find it odd that eth0 in fedora ended up with irq 25 rather than 22 (from the 2nd line of fedora dmesg), yet in ubuntu eth0 got irq 23 (from the 2nd line of ubuntu dmesg) rather than 25. Is there a clue somewhere in the above? Thanks, John. > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:13 AM, ted leslie wrote: > > Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. > > -tl > > > > On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: > >> > >> Hello everyone; > >> > >> After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it > >> (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. > >> The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of > >> whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP > >> address. > >> > >> On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with > >> either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. > >> > >> Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. > >> > >> Fedora: > >> > >> forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > >> eth0: no IPv6 routers present > >> > >> Ubuntu: > >> > >> [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for > >> MSI/MSI-X > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > >> [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > >> [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > >> > >> I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not > >> good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to fix > >> it. I've been at this for days... > >> > >> Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, > >> just thought I'd zero in on the above first. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 17:19:00 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:19:00 -0500 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com> did you add a pci card or reset or change your bios in mobo at the time this occurred. looking at other entries for other HW in lspci -vv may show other differences. There is PCI irq mapping at play and the fedora vs. ubuntu kernel are working it differently (i am guessing). of course if you change pci settings in your bios (i.e. no plug and play,and other pci/irq related settings) you risk nuking your windows (i know, as its happened to me once years ago). you should also look at dmesg of boot time (time frame). Maybe just update your ubuntu kernel? or pass in some boot string to manipulate APCH settings. But why it started to happen in the first place? i am guessing because of a add/remove pci card or bios change/update? -tl On 01/27/2012 12:07 PM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > > From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:23:52 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > > lspci -vv > > i mean. > > > > -tl > > Here's what came out - all I get out of it is that the irq's are > different for ubuntu and fedora. > > UBUNTU: > ------------- > "dmesg eth": > > [ 0.815136] forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. > Version 0.64. > [ 0.815419] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> GSI > 23 (level, low) -> IRQ 23 > [ 0.815424] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 > [ 1.336900] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 @ > 13, addr 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 > [ 1.336903] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim msi > desc-v3 > [ 2270.703264] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > [ 2281.216026] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > "lspci -vv": > > 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) > Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 > Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- > ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx- > Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- > SERR- Latency: 0 (250ns min, 5000ns max) > Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 23 > Region 0: Memory at fe02d000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=4K] > Region 1: I/O ports at ec00 [size=8] > Capabilities: > Kernel driver in use: forcedeth > Kernel modules: forcedeth > > FEDORA: > ------------- > "dmesg eth": > > forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.64. > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> GSI 22 (level, low) > -> IRQ 22 > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 @ 13, addr > 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim msi desc-v3 > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > > "lspci -vv": > > 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) > Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 > Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- > ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx+ > Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- > SERR- Latency: 0 (250ns min, 5000ns max) > Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 25 > Region 0: Memory at fe02d000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=4K] > Region 1: I/O ports at ec00 [size=8] > Capabilities: > Kernel driver in use: forcedeth > Kernel modules: forcedeth > > I find it odd that eth0 in fedora ended up with irq 25 rather than 22 > (from the 2nd line of fedora dmesg), yet in ubuntu eth0 got irq 23 > (from the 2nd line of ubuntu dmesg) rather than 25. > > Is there a clue somewhere in the above? > > Thanks, > > John. > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:13 AM, ted leslie > wrote: > > > Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. > > > -tl > > > > > > On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: > > >> > > >> Hello everyone; > > >> > > >> After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now > lost it > > >> (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu > set up. > > >> The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, > regardless of > > >> whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give > me an IP > > >> address. > > >> > > >> On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to > connect with > > >> either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. > > >> > > >> Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. > > >> > > >> Fedora: > > >> > > >> forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > > >> eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > >> > > >> Ubuntu: > > >> > > >> [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq > 25 for > > >> MSI/MSI-X > > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > >> [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > > >> [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > >> > > >> I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that > it's not > > >> good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where > to go to fix > > >> it. I've been at this for days... > > >> > > >> Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if > necessary, > > >> just thought I'd zero in on the above first. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> > > >> John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 18:04:39 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:04:39 +0000 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: <4F22DC84.5000100-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: , ,<4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:19:00 -0500 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org CC: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection did you add a pci card or reset or change your bios in mobo at the time this occurred. looking at other entries for other HW in lspci -vv may show other differences. There is PCI irq mapping at play and the fedora vs. ubuntu kernel are working it differently (i am guessing). of course if you change pci settings in your bios (i.e. no plug and play,and other pci/irq related settings) you risk nuking your windows (i know, as its happened to me once years ago). you should also look at dmesg of boot time (time frame). Maybe just update your ubuntu kernel? or pass in some boot string to manipulate APCH settings. But why it started to happen in the first place? i am guessing because of a add/remove pci card or bios change/update? -tl I haven't added a pci card nor changed bios settings. Tracing back my steps, its hard to pinpoint the last thing I did before it stopped working, reason being that I had the system (ubuntu) in sleep mode and the changes I made may not have affected it until I rebooted. I have in fact been making some network changes and the problem appeared a few days after making my changes when the system was rebooted. In fact I rebooted only because the system shut down one day when I tried waking it up. At that boot and every reboot afterward, there was no connection. What I did was to change the router from my coyote pc to a commercial box so that I could do dhcp. I bought a blu-ray disk player that I could not connect to the internet on static ip, so changed systems. Meanwhile, I kept this one box as static ip. The dhcp was only for the BD player. And I made sure that the dhcp numbering was kept quite apart from the static ip numbers I use. I got everything working OK, including the ubuntu system I was running. Then, after the system shut down instead of awakening and I could not connect, I started fiddling with dhcp ip's, ended up with ip conflicts and made a mess of it. But I'm fairly certain this mess happened *after* I lost connection in the first place. And I did get fedora and vista connected, so I was able to fix what I messed up. Except I can't fix ubuntu. I had also installed mediatomb, which I have since removed. That's the history of it in a nutshell. I can't update the ubuntu kernel very easily because I have no internet when I'm on ubuntu. I'm not a computer whiz, so upgrading the kernel without using the package system is not something I have the skills to do. If there are no clues on what to do to fix it, I may have to re-install ubuntu. Or maybe try something else. Thanks, John. On 01/27/2012 12:07 PM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:23:52 -0500 > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > lspci -vv > i mean. > > -tl Here's what came out - all I get out of it is that the irq's are different for ubuntu and fedora. UBUNTU: ------------- "dmesg eth": [ 0.815136] forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.64. [ 0.815419] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> GSI 23 (level, low) -> IRQ 23 [ 0.815424] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 [ 1.336900] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 @ 13, addr 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 [ 1.336903] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim msi desc-v3 [ 2270.703264] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X [ 2281.216026] eth0: no IPv6 routers present "lspci -vv": 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx- Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- SERR- Kernel driver in use: forcedeth Kernel modules: forcedeth FEDORA: ------------- "dmesg eth": forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.64. forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> GSI 22 (level, low) -> IRQ 22 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 @ 13, addr 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim msi desc-v3 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X eth0: no IPv6 routers present "lspci -vv": 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx+ Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- SERR- Kernel driver in use: forcedeth Kernel modules: forcedeth I find it odd that eth0 in fedora ended up with irq 25 rather than 22 (from the 2nd line of fedora dmesg), yet in ubuntu eth0 got irq 23 (from the 2nd line of ubuntu dmesg) rather than 25. Is there a clue somewhere in the above? Thanks, John. > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:13 AM, ted leslie wrote: > > Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. > > -tl > > > > On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: > >> > >> Hello everyone; > >> > >> After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it > >> (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. > >> The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of > >> whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP > >> address. > >> > >> On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with > >> either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. > >> > >> Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. > >> > >> Fedora: > >> > >> forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > >> eth0: no IPv6 routers present > >> > >> Ubuntu: > >> > >> [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for > >> MSI/MSI-X > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > >> [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > >> [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > >> > >> I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not > >> good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to fix > >> it. I've been at this for days... > >> > >> Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, > >> just thought I'd zero in on the above first. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 18:14:45 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:14:45 -0500 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: , ,<4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F22E995.5090109@gmail.com> try to manual set networking, i.e. ifconfig eth0 route add default gw assuming you are on eth0, else change accordingly. on that note, what are your netstat -rn and ifconfig -a outputs? -tl On 01/27/2012 01:04 PM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:19:00 -0500 > From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > CC: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > > did you add a pci card or reset or change your bios in mobo at the > time this occurred. > looking at other entries for other HW in lspci -vv may show other > differences. > There is PCI irq mapping at play and the fedora vs. ubuntu kernel are > working it differently (i am guessing). > > of course if you change pci settings in your bios (i.e. no plug and > play,and other pci/irq related settings) you risk nuking your windows > (i know, as its happened to me once years ago). > > you should also look at dmesg of boot time (time frame). > Maybe just update your ubuntu kernel? or pass in some boot string to > manipulate APCH settings. > But why it started to happen in the first place? i am guessing because > of a add/remove pci card or bios change/update? > > -tl > > I haven't added a pci card nor changed bios settings. > > Tracing back my steps, its hard to pinpoint the last thing I did > before it stopped working, reason being that I had the system (ubuntu) > in sleep mode and the changes I made may not have affected it until I > rebooted. I have in fact been making some network changes and the > problem appeared a few days after making my changes when the system > was rebooted. In fact I rebooted only because the system shut down one > day when I tried waking it up. At that boot and every reboot > afterward, there was no connection. > > What I did was to change the router from my coyote pc to a commercial > box so that I could do dhcp. I bought a blu-ray disk player that I > could not connect to the internet on static ip, so changed systems. > Meanwhile, I kept this one box as static ip. The dhcp was only for the > BD player. And I made sure that the dhcp numbering was kept quite > apart from the static ip numbers I use. > > I got everything working OK, including the ubuntu system I was > running. Then, after the system shut down instead of awakening and I > could not connect, I started fiddling with dhcp ip's, ended up with ip > conflicts and made a mess of it. But I'm fairly certain this mess > happened *after* I lost connection in the first place. And I did get > fedora and vista connected, so I was able to fix what I messed up. > Except I can't fix ubuntu. > > I had also installed mediatomb, which I have since removed. > > That's the history of it in a nutshell. > > I can't update the ubuntu kernel very easily because I have no > internet when I'm on ubuntu. I'm not a computer whiz, so upgrading the > kernel without using the package system is not something I have the > skills to do. If there are no clues on what to do to fix it, I may > have to re-install ubuntu. Or maybe try something else. > > Thanks, > > John. > > > On 01/27/2012 12:07 PM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org > wrote: > > > > > From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:23:52 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > > lspci -vv > > i mean. > > > > -tl > > Here's what came out - all I get out of it is that the irq's are > different for ubuntu and fedora. > > UBUNTU: > ------------- > "dmesg eth": > > [ 0.815136] forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet > driver. Version 0.64. > [ 0.815419] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> > GSI 23 (level, low) -> IRQ 23 > [ 0.815424] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 > [ 1.336900] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 > @ 13, addr 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 > [ 1.336903] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim > msi desc-v3 > [ 2270.703264] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > [ 2281.216026] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > "lspci -vv": > > 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) > Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 > Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- > ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx- > Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- > SERR- Latency: 0 (250ns min, 5000ns max) > Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 23 > Region 0: Memory at fe02d000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=4K] > Region 1: I/O ports at ec00 [size=8] > Capabilities: > Kernel driver in use: forcedeth > Kernel modules: forcedeth > > FEDORA: > ------------- > "dmesg eth": > > forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.64. > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> GSI 22 (level, > low) -> IRQ 22 > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 @ 13, addr > 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim msi desc-v3 > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > > "lspci -vv": > > 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) > Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 > Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- > ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx+ > Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- > SERR- Latency: 0 (250ns min, 5000ns max) > Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 25 > Region 0: Memory at fe02d000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=4K] > Region 1: I/O ports at ec00 [size=8] > Capabilities: > Kernel driver in use: forcedeth > Kernel modules: forcedeth > > I find it odd that eth0 in fedora ended up with irq 25 rather than > 22 (from the 2nd line of fedora dmesg), yet in ubuntu eth0 got irq > 23 (from the 2nd line of ubuntu dmesg) rather than 25. > > Is there a clue somewhere in the above? > > Thanks, > > John. > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:13 AM, ted leslie > wrote: > > > Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. > > > -tl > > > > > > On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, > wrote: > > >> > > >> Hello everyone; > > >> > > >> After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have > now lost it > > >> (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my > Ubuntu set up. > > >> The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, > regardless of > > >> whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't > give me an IP > > >> address. > > >> > > >> On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to > connect with > > >> either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. > > >> > > >> Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and > Ubuntu. > > >> > > >> Fedora: > > >> > > >> forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > > >> eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > >> > > >> Ubuntu: > > >> > > >> [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: > irq 25 for > > >> MSI/MSI-X > > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > >> [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > > >> [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > >> > > >> I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that > it's not > > >> good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know > where to go to fix > > >> it. I've been at this for days... > > >> > > >> Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if > necessary, > > >> just thought I'd zero in on the above first. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> > > >> John. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 19:45:32 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:45:32 +0000 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: <4F22E995.5090109-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: , ,<4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com> ,<4F22E995.5090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: I now wish I had some kind of VM to go back and forth between distros. This computer has been rebooted more in the last few days than most of it's life. That worked somewhat... I was able to connect to the network but not the internet. Below is netstat output. Thanks again. Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:14:45 -0500 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection try to manual set networking, i.e. ifconfig eth0 route add default gw assuming you are on eth0, else change accordingly. on that note, what are your netstat -rn and ifconfig -a outputs? -tl ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- netstat -rn was initially blank. After doing the above commands, it retrieved: Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt Iface 192.168.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 eth0 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0 On 01/27/2012 01:04 PM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:19:00 -0500 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org CC: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection did you add a pci card or reset or change your bios in mobo at the time this occurred. looking at other entries for other HW in lspci -vv may show other differences. There is PCI irq mapping at play and the fedora vs. ubuntu kernel are working it differently (i am guessing). of course if you change pci settings in your bios (i.e. no plug and play,and other pci/irq related settings) you risk nuking your windows (i know, as its happened to me once years ago). you should also look at dmesg of boot time (time frame). Maybe just update your ubuntu kernel? or pass in some boot string to manipulate APCH settings. But why it started to happen in the first place? i am guessing because of a add/remove pci card or bios change/update? -tl I haven't added a pci card nor changed bios settings. Tracing back my steps, its hard to pinpoint the last thing I did before it stopped working, reason being that I had the system (ubuntu) in sleep mode and the changes I made may not have affected it until I rebooted. I have in fact been making some network changes and the problem appeared a few days after making my changes when the system was rebooted. In fact I rebooted only because the system shut down one day when I tried waking it up. At that boot and every reboot afterward, there was no connection. What I did was to change the router from my coyote pc to a commercial box so that I could do dhcp. I bought a blu-ray disk player that I could not connect to the internet on static ip, so changed systems. Meanwhile, I kept this one box as static ip. The dhcp was only for the BD player. And I made sure that the dhcp numbering was kept quite apart from the static ip numbers I use. I got everything working OK, including the ubuntu system I was running. Then, after the system shut down instead of awakening and I could not connect, I started fiddling with dhcp ip's, ended up with ip conflicts and made a mess of it. But I'm fairly certain this mess happened *after* I lost connection in the first place. And I did get fedora and vista connected, so I was able to fix what I messed up. Except I can't fix ubuntu. I had also installed mediatomb, which I have since removed. That's the history of it in a nutshell. I can't update the ubuntu kernel very easily because I have no internet when I'm on ubuntu. I'm not a computer whiz, so upgrading the kernel without using the package system is not something I have the skills to do. If there are no clues on what to do to fix it, I may have to re-install ubuntu. Or maybe try something else. Thanks, John. On 01/27/2012 12:07 PM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:23:52 -0500 > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > lspci -vv > i mean. > > -tl Here's what came out - all I get out of it is that the irq's are different for ubuntu and fedora. UBUNTU: ------------- "dmesg eth": [ 0.815136] forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.64. [ 0.815419] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> GSI 23 (level, low) -> IRQ 23 [ 0.815424] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 [ 1.336900] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 @ 13, addr 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 [ 1.336903] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim msi desc-v3 [ 2270.703264] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X [ 2281.216026] eth0: no IPv6 routers present "lspci -vv": 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx- Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- SERR- Kernel driver in use: forcedeth Kernel modules: forcedeth FEDORA: ------------- "dmesg eth": forcedeth: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.64. forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[APCH] -> GSI 22 (level, low) -> IRQ 22 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: setting latency timer to 64 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: ifname eth0, PHY OUI 0x732 @ 13, addr 00:1f:c6:04:ec:f0 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: highdma pwrctl mgmt lnktim msi desc-v3 forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X eth0: no IPv6 routers present "lspci -vv": 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2) Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 2a66 Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx+ Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- SERR- Kernel driver in use: forcedeth Kernel modules: forcedeth I find it odd that eth0 in fedora ended up with irq 25 rather than 22 (from the 2nd line of fedora dmesg), yet in ubuntu eth0 got irq 23 (from the 2nd line of ubuntu dmesg) rather than 25. Is there a clue somewhere in the above? Thanks, John. > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:13 AM, ted leslie wrote: > > Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. > > -tl > > > > On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: > >> > >> Hello everyone; > >> > >> After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it > >> (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. > >> The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of > >> whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP > >> address. > >> > >> On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with > >> either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. > >> > >> Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. > >> > >> Fedora: > >> > >> forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > >> eth0: no IPv6 routers present > >> > >> Ubuntu: > >> > >> [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for > >> MSI/MSI-X > >> [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > >> [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > >> [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > >> > >> I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not > >> good. However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to fix > >> it. I've been at this for days... > >> > >> Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, > >> just thought I'd zero in on the above first. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 21:18:30 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:18:30 -0800 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's the one. I find that if it's wrong, you end up with an invalid eth0 device that isn't using your driver, and then an eth1 device that doesn't work, etc You might also want to look for the following in /etc/modprobe.conf or /etc/modprobe.d/0 alias eth0 SOMETHING (a driver other than forcedeth) More stuff when you do "lsmod | grep forcedeth" do you see a number of 1 or greater under "Used by" When booting an older kernel, does it work (bad forcedeth module?) Does "ethtool eth0" display a valid link/duplex speed (and an active link) On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 8:49 AM, wrote: > Do you mean to delete the file /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules? I > don't see persistent-net-interfaces. > > ________________________________ > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:16:16 -0800 > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > try killing persistent-net-interfaces too in case it's wrong somehow > (/etc/udev/rules.d) > On Jan 27, 2012 7:14 AM, "ted leslie" wrote: > > Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. > -tl > On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: > > Hello everyone; > > After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it > (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. > The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of > whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP > address. > > On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with > either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. > > Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. > > Fedora: > > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > Ubuntu: > > [? 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > [? 490.348024] eth0: no[? 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for > MSI/MSI-X > [? 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > [? 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > [? 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not good. > However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to fix it. > I've been at this for days... > > Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, just > thought I'd zero in on the above first. > > Thanks, > > John. -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2/DCTS/CLA "Computers don't make mistakes. They can, however, execute those provided to them very quickly" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 21:34:33 2012 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:34:33 -0500 Subject: Insomnia user? Message-ID: <20120127213433.GA11902@amber> If anyone here belongs to Insomnia 24/7, I'd appreciate an invite code. Thanks. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org Fri Jan 27 21:46:00 2012 From: mollytournquist-ifvz4xmYPRU at public.gmane.org (Molly Tournquist) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:46:00 -0500 Subject: Commercial Surveillance, who is going to remain part of the problem? Message-ID: <20120127214602.282630@gmx.com> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > I knew there was a reason I disliked using social network services. > It was partially the lack of control over how my information would be used, > but I was having trouble articulating it in a manner which would be > meaningful to others. > > Well worth a read for it's honesty and brevity, but powerful point. > > http://www.betabeat.com/2011/12/13/in-which-eben-moglen-like-legit-yells-at-me-for-being-on-facebook/ > > -- > Scott Sullivan Here's another perspective against the social media bandwagon. http://everything2.com/title/Facebook+destroys+real+relationships However, it's not really specific to facebook, it would be similarly against alternatives that might respect your privacy more. It could be said to focus on how facebook persistantly underhandedly prods you in certain directions, requiring you to go out of your way not to comply. Perhaps the article bluntly gets into things which people have habits for blocking out of attention. On top of general automatic defensiveness against criticisms of something people are hooked on like that. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 28 00:49:01 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:49:01 -0500 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: <4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com> <4F22E995.5090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120128004901.GA1567@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 07:45:32PM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote > netstat -rn was initially blank. After doing the above commands, it retrieved: > > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt Iface > 192.168.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 eth0 > 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0 Check your configuration with the commands "ifconfig" and "route". Something is terribly wrong if you don't have lo 127.0.0.1. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 28 02:39:37 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:39:37 +0000 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: <20120128004901.GA1567-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: ,,,,<4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com>,,<4F22E995.5090109@gmail.com>,,<20120128004901.GA1567@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: Are you sure lo is listed with netstat? I don't get it with my fedora distro either, and the network is working with that one. I do show lo with ifconfig. John. > From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:49:01 -0500 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 07:45:32PM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote > > > netstat -rn was initially blank. After doing the above commands, it retrieved: > > > > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt Iface > > 192.168.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 eth0 > > 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0 > > Check your configuration with the commands "ifconfig" and "route". > Something is terribly wrong if you don't have lo 127.0.0.1. > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 28 02:41:44 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:41:44 -0500 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: ,,,,<4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com>,,<4F22E995.5090109@gmail.com>,,<20120128004901.GA1567@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4F236068.2020405@gmail.com> you don't need lo to have a working system, i don't have it on my linux mint. -tl On 01/27/2012 09:39 PM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > Are you sure lo is listed with netstat? I don't get it with my fedora > distro either, and the network is working with that one. > > I do show lo with ifconfig. > > John. > > > > From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:49:01 -0500 > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 07:45:32PM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote > > > > > netstat -rn was initially blank. After doing the above commands, > it retrieved: > > > > > > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt Iface > > > 192.168.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 eth0 > > > 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0 > > > > Check your configuration with the commands "ifconfig" and "route". > > Something is terribly wrong if you don't have lo 127.0.0.1. > > > > -- > > Walter Dnes > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 28 02:46:55 2012 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:46:55 -0500 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: <4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com> <4F22E995.5090109@gmail.com> <20120128004901.GA1567@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 9:39 PM, wrote: > Are you sure lo is listed with netstat? I don't get it with my fedora distro > either, and the network is working with that one. To see lo, you'll probably want the -i (or --interfaces) option for netstat (won't work with -r though) -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 28 02:48:18 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:48:18 +0000 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: ,,,, Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:18:30 -0800 > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > That's the one. I find that if it's wrong, you end up with an invalid > eth0 device that isn't using your driver, and then an eth1 device that > doesn't work, etc > You might also want to look for the following in /etc/modprobe.conf or > /etc/modprobe.d/0 > alias eth0 SOMETHING (a driver other than forcedeth) I can't find /etc/modprobe.conf nor /etc/modprobe.d/0. > > More stuff > when you do "lsmod | grep forcedeth" do you see a number of 1 or > greater under "Used by" I get a '0' > > When booting an older kernel, does it work (bad forcedeth module?) It doesn't connect with an older kernel either. > Does "ethtool eth0" display a valid link/duplex speed (and an active link) I don't see anything obviously wrong: Settings for eth0: Supported ports: [ MII ] Supported link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full Supports auto-negotiation: Yes Advertised link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full Advertised pause frame use: No Advertised auto-negotiation: Yes Link partner advertised link modes: Not reported Link partner advertised pause frame use: No Link partner advertised auto-negotiation: No Speed: 100Mb/s Duplex: Full Port: MII PHYAD: 13 Transceiver: external Auto-negotiation: on Supports Wake-on: g Wake-on: d Link detected: yes Is it time to reinstall? John. > > > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 8:49 AM, wrote: > > Do you mean to delete the file /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules? I > > don't see persistent-net-interfaces. > > > > ________________________________ > > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:16:16 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > > From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > > > > > > try killing persistent-net-interfaces too in case it's wrong somehow > > (/etc/udev/rules.d) > > On Jan 27, 2012 7:14 AM, "ted leslie" wrote: > > > > Compare lspci -xx on the two linux os. > > -tl > > On Jan 27, 2012 10:08 AM, wrote: > > > > Hello everyone; > > > > After many years of trouble free ethernet connections, I have now lost it > > (in more ways than one) and cannot get an IP address on my Ubuntu set up. > > The condensed version of this story is that it won't connect, regardless of > > whether I try DHCP or static IP address. Ubuntu just won't give me an IP > > address. > > > > On this same box, I also have Vista and Fedora. I am able to connect with > > either, both with DHCP and static address configurations. > > > > Here's a comparison of "dmesg | grep eth" for both Fedora and Ubuntu. > > > > Fedora: > > > > forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > > eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > > > Ubuntu: > > > > [ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > > [ 490.348024] eth0: no[ 480.187616] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for > > MSI/MSI-X > > [ 490.348024] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > [ 611.855532] forcedeth 0000:00:07.0: irq 25 for MSI/MSI-X > > [ 622.492015] eth0: no IPv6 routers present > > > > I don't like what I see from Ubuntu and I have a feeling that it's not good. > > However, feelings don't fix things and I don't know where to go to fix it. > > I've been at this for days... > > > > Any help would be appreciated. And I can expand the story if necessary, just > > thought I'd zero in on the above first. > > > > Thanks, > > > > John. > > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2/DCTS/CLA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 28 03:43:06 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:43:06 -0500 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: References: <4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com> <4F22E995.5090109@gmail.com> <20120128004901.GA1567@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20120128034306.GA1760@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 02:39:37AM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote > I do show lo with ifconfig. OK, 2 possibilities... 1) Try traceroute -n 157.166.226.26 or tracepath -n 157.166.226.26 That's www.cnn.com. If you can get to IP addresses, but not names, then you have a DNS problem. What does /etc/resolv.conf look like? You can generally use the address of your ADSL router/modem (192.168.0.1) Other options are... Google 8.8.8.8 8.8.4.4 Verizon 4.2.2.1 4.2.2.2 4.2.2.3 4.2.2.4 4.2.2.5 4.2.2.6 2) If that doesn't work, we get desparate. I notice that your working Fedora shows IRQ 25, but the non-working Ubuntu shows IRQ 23. Note that you have to be root or use su/sudo to change settings with ifconfig. Can you list the *COMPLETE* output of "ifconfig eth0"? Here are a few options... Plan A) ifconfig eth0 irq 25 and try the network Plan B) ifconfig eth0 irq 23 and try the network There is no "Plan C", other than re-installing. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Jan 28 06:45:55 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:45:55 -0500 Subject: Commercial Surveillance, who is going to remain part of the problem? In-Reply-To: <20120127214602.282630-KK0ffGbhmjU@public.gmane.org> References: <20120127214602.282630@gmx.com> Message-ID: <20120128064555.GA9620@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 04:46:00PM -0500, Molly Tournquist wrote > It could be said to focus on how facebook persistantly underhandedly > prods you in certain directions, requiring you to go out of your way > not to comply. Perhaps the article bluntly gets into things which > people have habits for blocking out of attention. On top of general > automatic defensiveness against criticisms of something people are > hooked on like that. The thing about Facebook is that it has gradually changed its privacy settings for the worse. If Zuckerberg had start Facebook in its current wide-open configuration, it would never have taken off. Instead, Facebook started off as a private web-board, got "network effect", hooked users, and then started turning down privacy. See http://mattmckeon.com/facebook-privacy for a graphic illustration of how things have changed. Rather than me telling you what I think of Facebook users, I suggest looking at what Mark Zuckerberg thinks of Facebook users. Let's just say it's NSFW (Not Safe For Work). See... http://www.businessinsider.com/well-these-new-zuckerberg-ims-wont-help-facebooks-privacy-problems-2010-5 For those of you wanting to block Facebook at home (so the "Like" buttons don't track you) or at work (to restore productivity), mp iptables rules currently block... 66.220.144.0/20 66.220.144.0 - 66.220.159.255 69.63.176.0/20 69.63.176.0 - 69.63.191.255 69.171.224.0/19 69.171.224.0 - 69.171.255.255 74.119.76.0/22 74.119.76.0 - 74.119.79.255 173.252.64.0/18 173.252.64.0 - 173.252.127.255 204.15.20.0/22 204.15.20.0 - 204.15.23.255 -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 29 05:39:21 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:39:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: a useful list techniques to use in Linux Message-ID: The title is "Some time-saving tips that every Linux user should know" but I think that is an exageration. Casual users certainly don't need to know all of this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 29 06:12:27 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 01:12:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: memory overcommitment Message-ID: When Jim Mercer spoke at our meeting earlier this month, one Linux feature that had him shaking his head was memory overcommitment. Normally, Linux will effectively promise processes more memory than it can deliver. This is called overcommitment. Why would this be a good idea? Because many processes don't use the worst case of what they can, and usually not all running processes are simultaneously using their maximal amount. Why would this be a bad idea? Because failure (i.e. running out of memory and swap space to support the requirements) is hard to recover from and it is not connected in any obvious way with the requests that caused the problem. The way Linux recovers is the "OOM killer" -- a process that kills dead somewhat random processes in the hope that memory requirements become become small enough to handle. The OOM Handler behaviour makes it extremely hard to reason about how a system will perform. You can tell Linux not to overcommit. That sounds easy and reasonable. I didn't know why you would not want to do this. Here's an interesting article that addresses the issue: If I read this right, it seems as if Linux has a cute generalization that makes it expensive to avoid overcommitment. Copy On Write (COW) is really neat. Two processes created by forking can share all their memory until one writes to it. Then the page that is written two must be copied so that each process has its own copy. With COW, a fork causes almost no memory use but writes afterwards do. To properly account for this without overcommitment, the system would have to account for complete copying on fork, even though that is probably way too generous. But: in a properly designed system, much of the memory of a process should be read-only and never have to be copied: the program code itself and any constants. Reading between the lines, it sounds as if Linux doesn't enforce this. I wonder if it is true. Even if this were fixed, fork needs to account for duplication of all the heap and stack. If, as is often the case, the next serious thing that the child process does is exec, the allocation of the space for the child's heap and stack is a wicked waste. Another argument for the abomination vfork which recognized this idiom. Reading in between the lines in these documents, I'm guessing that glibc's malloc implementation assumes that allocating memory that isn't used doesn't have a cost. This is not true if overcommit is forbidden. Still a bit of a puzzle to me. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Jan 29 18:15:28 2012 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:15:28 -0500 Subject: Anyone have experience with Argus, it crashing, and potentially filters to prevent crashes? Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I have a long standing problem where certain traffic that I am monitoring with Argus is causing repeated under certain circumstances. Usually filtering our some IPSEC traffic using a filter of (esp or ether proto 0x9000) causes problems like this to go away. Not today though. I am running it on Ubuntu 9.04 (not by my choice....) Effectively I see this error upon crash: *** glibc detected *** argus: free(): invalid next size (fast): 0x0000000002551db0 *** John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 30 05:16:27 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:16:27 -0500 Subject: Anyone compiled Xorg from source? Message-ID: <20120130051627.GA2917@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi All, Has anyone compiled Xorg from source? Did you compile all 200 packages manually, or was there some top-level "Makefile" where you just do "./configure && make && make install"? I can get all the packages from , but there are 200 packages. Surely, no one would compile them manually. Then again, judging by the fact that individual packages are available in various distros, may be they were compiled manually. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 30 05:27:53 2012 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 00:27:53 -0500 Subject: Truth about service uptime Message-ID: <4f262a59.49cee00a.12a7.0f9b@mx.google.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 30 05:51:35 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:51:35 +0000 Subject: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection In-Reply-To: <20120128034306.GA1760-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: ,,,,<4F22DC84.5000100@gmail.com>,,<4F22E995.5090109@gmail.com>,,<20120128004901.GA1567@waltdnes.org>,,<20120128034306.GA1760@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: > From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:43:06 -0500 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Cannot Get Back Ethernet Connection > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 02:39:37AM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote > > > I do show lo with ifconfig. > > OK, 2 possibilities... > > 1) Try > traceroute -n 157.166.226.26 > or > tracepath -n 157.166.226.26 > > That's www.cnn.com. If you can get to IP addresses, but not names, > then you have a DNS problem. What does /etc/resolv.conf look like? > You can generally use the address of your ADSL router/modem (192.168.0.1) OK, some good progress! Your suspicions were correct Walter, I was able to ping external IP addresses. So, with Ted's ifconfig and route commands, I can access the outside world. The ubuntu /etc/resolv.conf file was empty. I copied the one from fedora and now I'm able to browse the internet. I'm emailing this from the problem system (ubuntu). But the fix is not permanent. Whenever I boot up, I still get no eth0 connection (in ubuntu only) - eth0 doesn't even show up in ifconfig. How do I make it permanent? One thing I noticed when I boot up ubuntu, which I never noticed previously - just before it starts to boot, I get a nearly blank screen with just the following on the very top: resume: libgcrypt version 1.4.4 Googling this message, I see some grumblings about it, even some which link it to a loss of ethernet connection, but no solutions that I found. Anyone know what that's about? Thanks, John. > Other options are... > Google > 8.8.8.8 > 8.8.4.4 > > Verizon > 4.2.2.1 > 4.2.2.2 > 4.2.2.3 > 4.2.2.4 > 4.2.2.5 > 4.2.2.6 > > 2) If that doesn't work, we get desparate. I notice that your working > Fedora shows IRQ 25, but the non-working Ubuntu shows IRQ 23. Note that > you have to be root or use su/sudo to change settings with ifconfig. > Can you list the *COMPLETE* output of "ifconfig eth0"? Here are a few > options... > > Plan A) ifconfig eth0 irq 25 > and try the network > > Plan B) ifconfig eth0 irq 23 > and try the network > > There is no "Plan C", other than re-installing. > > -- > Walter Dnes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 30 14:40:16 2012 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:40:16 -0500 Subject: Anyone compiled Xorg from source? In-Reply-To: <20120130051627.GA2917-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120130051627.GA2917@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 30 January 2012 00:16, William Park wrote: > Has anyone compiled Xorg from source? If you run Gentoo Linux, you pretty much always do. ;-) -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 30 15:24:35 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:24:35 -0500 Subject: memory overcommitment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120130152435.GJ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 01:12:27AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > When Jim Mercer spoke at our meeting earlier this month, one Linux feature > that had him shaking his head was memory overcommitment. > > Normally, Linux will effectively promise processes more memory than it can > deliver. This is called overcommitment. > > Why would this be a good idea? Because many processes don't use the worst > case of what they can, and usually not all running processes are > simultaneously using their maximal amount. > > Why would this be a bad idea? Because failure (i.e. running out of memory > and swap space to support the requirements) is hard to recover from and it > is not connected in any obvious way with the requests that caused the > problem. The way Linux recovers is the "OOM killer" -- a process that > kills dead somewhat random processes in the hope that memory requirements > become become small enough to handle. > > The OOM Handler behaviour makes it extremely hard to reason about how a > system will perform. > > You can tell Linux not to overcommit. That sounds easy and reasonable. I > didn't know why you would not want to do this. > > Here's an interesting article that addresses the issue: > > > If I read this right, it seems as if Linux has a cute generalization that > makes it expensive to avoid overcommitment. > > Copy On Write (COW) is really neat. Two processes created by forking can > share all their memory until one writes to it. Then the page that is > written two must be copied so that each process has its own copy. > > With COW, a fork causes almost no memory use but writes afterwards do. To > properly account for this without overcommitment, the system would have to > account for complete copying on fork, even though that is probably way too > generous. > > But: in a properly designed system, much of the memory of a process should > be read-only and never have to be copied: the program code itself and any > constants. Reading between the lines, it sounds as if Linux doesn't > enforce this. x86 had no way to enforce this. x86_64 added support for marking a page no execute (data only). Well x86 could enforce read only on the code pages, but it couldn't prevent a program from executing a data page. Of course since some programs thought self modifying code was a good idea, I am not sure linux did enforce read only code pages in the past, or if it even does now. > I wonder if it is true. > > Even if this were fixed, fork needs to account for duplication of all the > heap and stack. If, as is often the case, the next serious thing that the > child process does is exec, the allocation of the space for the child's > heap and stack is a wicked waste. Another argument for the abomination > vfork which recognized this idiom. > > Reading in between the lines in these documents, I'm guessing that glibc's > malloc implementation assumes that allocating memory that isn't used > doesn't have a cost. This is not true if overcommit is forbidden. Not really glibc's problem when an application requests 100MB and only needs 1MB. In the cases where glibc chooses to deal with small allocations in a heap rather than bother the kernel for each malloc, then it is different, but I don't think those are the cases that really matter in general. > Still a bit of a puzzle to me. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tom-P9LCsnxcr+NWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 30 16:31:55 2012 From: tom-P9LCsnxcr+NWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Tom Low-Shang) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:31:55 -0500 Subject: Anyone compiled Xorg from source? In-Reply-To: <20120130051627.GA2917-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120130051627.GA2917@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20120130163154.GA4996@goblin.lowshang.com> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 12:16:27AM -0500, William Park wrote: > Hi All, > > Has anyone compiled Xorg from source? Did you compile all 200 packages > manually, or was there some top-level "Makefile" where you just do > "./configure && make && make install"? > > I can get all the packages from > , but there are 200 > packages. Surely, no one would compile them manually. Then again, > judging by the fact that individual packages are available in various > distros, may be they were compiled manually. On Debian unstable I've compiled xf86-video-ati, xcb-proto, libxcb from a git checkout without building the entire xorg suite. I just installed the appropriate -dev packages when ./configure complained about missing dependencies. How much of the xorg suite you need to compile depends on the age of the xorg packages in your distribution and on the package(s) you are replacing. -- Tom Low-Shang cell 416 857 7013 skype tomlowshang -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 30 16:41:05 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:41:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: memory overcommitment In-Reply-To: <20120130152435.GJ27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120130152435.GJ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | > But: in a properly designed system, much of the memory of a process should | > be read-only and never have to be copied: the program code itself and any | > constants. Reading between the lines, it sounds as if Linux doesn't | > enforce this. | | x86 had no way to enforce this. x86_64 added support for marking a page | no execute (data only). Well x86 could enforce read only on the code | pages, but it couldn't prevent a program from executing a data page. | Of course since some programs thought self modifying code was a good | idea, I am not sure linux did enforce read only code pages in the past, | or if it even does now. x86 sure does allow read-only as opposed to read/write (execution is a kind of read). Partial demonstration: that's one of the hardware mechanisms used in implementing COW. See the R/W bit in the page table entry. See _PAGE_RW in 3.2 Neither of those mention it, but there are even more levels of write protection exist in x86 - 286 and later segmentation also allows write protection. - the Page Directory Entry (PDE) allows write protection Self modifying code is sometimes a good idea. Examples: - JIT compilers (including fast emulators to implement virtual machines) - BIT BLIT - hacking continuations into C - dynamic loaders In most of these examples, there is normally still a large area that isn't simultaineously writeable and executable. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Jan 30 17:24:41 2012 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:24:41 -0500 Subject: Anyone compiled Xorg from source? In-Reply-To: References: <20120130051627.GA2917@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: Somebody stole my answer. Renata Rocha http://renata.org On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 09:40, Scott Allen wrote: > On 30 January 2012 00:16, William Park wrote: > > Has anyone compiled Xorg from source? > > If you run Gentoo Linux, you pretty much always do. ;-) > > -- > Scott > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 04:15:21 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:15:21 -0500 Subject: Anyone compiled Xorg from source? In-Reply-To: References: <20120130051627.GA2917@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20120131041521.GB20935@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 09:40:16AM -0500, Scott Allen wrote > On 30 January 2012 00:16, William Park wrote: > > Has anyone compiled Xorg from source? > > If you run Gentoo Linux, you pretty much always do. ;-) In Gentoo it's one ebuild (makefile+install+whatever) for X11, and 3 or so ebuilds for the device drivers (video/mouse/keyboard). There are 2 options for X11. xorg-server is the basic one. I use it. xorg-x11 is the "kitchen sink" version that pulls in a lot more fonts and X utility programs. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 06:10:53 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:10:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: My Concerns Regarding The Copyright Modernization Act Bill C-11 Message-ID: Apparently C-11 is going to the floor of the Commons on Feb 7. I think its DRM provisions are bad. Please consider sending a letter to your MP etc. I took the lazy way out and used to generate one. I did customize it slightly. You can read it: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- X-Spam-Level: From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org To: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:02:43 -0500 Subject: My Concerns Regarding The Copyright Modernization Act Bill C-11 Jan 31, 2012 To: John.Carmichael-o8LxKXBI9Raw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org House of Commons Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 Dear Ministers, I would like to take this opportunity to convey my concerns and suggestions for points of revision and amendment in regards to Bill C-11, The Copyright Modernization Act. Although Bill C-11 appears to be more flexible than the previous attempts at copyright reform, this Bill is flawed to its core by the inclusion of strict, anti-circumvention provisions. As a Canadian, I am both concerned and disheartened by how easily my rights are trumped by the overriding and all encompassing protection for digital locks contained in the legislation. The anti-circumvention provisions included in Bill C-11, unduly equip corporate copyright owners and distributors in the music, movie, book, periodical, and video game industries with a powerful set of tools that can be utilized to exercise absolute control over Canadians??? interaction with media and technology and may even undermine Canadians??? constitutional rights. Even worse problems arise with devices containing computer software. A solution to Bill C-11???s contentious core problem and the means to avoid the unintended consequences generated by the broad protection for digital locks is to amend the Bill to permit circumvention for lawful purposes. Not only is this approach compliant with the WIPO Internet Treaties, but it also provides legal protection for digital locks while maintaining the crucial copyright balance. I urge this Government to either add an infringing purpose requirement to the prohibition of circumvention or add an exception to the legislation to address circumvention for lawful purposes. I strongly believe that in addition to linking the prohibition of circumvention to the act of infringement, it is also paramount for consumers to have commercial access to the tools required to facilitate such lawful acts. It is imperative that the ban on the distribution and marketing of devices or tools that can be used to lawfully circumvent be eliminated by removing paragraph 41.1(c) and any associated references to it or any paragraphs in the Bill that would be rendered irrelevant by this change. Some have suggested that market forces will decide the fate of digital locks in Canada and that codifying strong protection for such measures in Canadian law is simply good interim policy. I disagree. Rather than handing control of Canadians??? digital rights over to corporations, the Government must consider regulating how digital locks are implemented to ensure they are not simply used to deny user rights. I put forward to this Government that adding a labelling requirement to disclose the use of digital locks on consumer goods be considered. A requirement as such, would permit Canadian consumers to make informed decisions about the products they purchase and the access and usage rights, or lack thereof, they can expect with the ownership of a given product. In review, I believe it is in the best interest of Canadian consumers and creators alike to amend Bill C-11 to clearly link the act of circumvention to infringement, remove the all-encompassing ban on circumvention tools and to establish a new TPM labelling provision. Sincerely, D. Hugh Redelmeier 29 Donino Avenue Toronto Ontario M4N2W6 hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org CC: The Right Honourable Stephen Harper CC: The Honourable Christian Paradis Minister of Industry CC: The Honourable James Moore Minister of Canadian Heritage CC: The Honourable Geoff Regan CC: Scott Simms CC: Charlie Angus -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 14:18:21 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:18:21 -0500 Subject: My Concerns Regarding The Copyright Modernization Act Bill C-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:10 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Apparently C-11 is going to the floor of the Commons on Feb 7. ?I think > its DRM provisions are bad. > > Please consider sending a letter to your MP etc. ?I took the lazy way out > and used to generate one. ?I did customize it > slightly. ?You can read it: I absolutely 100% agree with you, and I will send a letter. However, my intuition tells me that even if this doesn't pass, something will eventually. There is just too much money behind it. In the end, I strongly believe this will come down to a final battle on the technical front, with the hackers (legitimate and otherwise) taking on the entertainment industry and its cronies using advance esoteric tactics like in Neuromancer. There's an awesome book about this historical pattern of new communication methods warring for supremacy with the old, it's called The Master Switch: http://goo.gl/AZcAM Mind blowing. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 14:51:57 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:51:57 -0500 Subject: Truth about service uptime In-Reply-To: <4f262a59.49cee00a.12a7.0f9b-ATjtLOhZ0NVl57MIdRCFDg@public.gmane.org> References: <4f262a59.49cee00a.12a7.0f9b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 30 January 2012 00:27, wrote: > http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3067-lets-get-honest-about-uptime > > I had expected 37 Signals to have a higher uptime. > > Is this normal? Their worst service was out for six hours in one year. That sounds pretty fantastic to me. I remember being taken off-line by a 24 hour power outage to the building my webserver was in: not much you can do about that (okay, okay, "redundant servers," but maybe your business isn't operating at that scale). That's four times 37signals' worst downtime. My server stayed up for an hour or so on its UPS, but that was pretty meaningless because the network was down. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 15:07:25 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:07:25 -0500 Subject: a useful list techniques to use in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2803AD.9020600@utoronto.ca> On 1/29/2012 12:39 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The title is "Some time-saving tips that every Linux user should know" but > I think that is an exageration. Casual users certainly don't need to know > all of this. > > Biggest thing for me was learning non-greedy regular expressions using negated characters for use with egrep and sed. I don't use grep at all now, and rarely use a .* or .+. Next up, here documents were a revelation for me. Sometimes the need arises, and being able to ssh foo < References: <4f262a59.49cee00a.12a7.0f9b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20120131154039.GK27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 09:51:57AM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > Their worst service was out for six hours in one year. That sounds > pretty fantastic to me. > > I remember being taken off-line by a 24 hour power outage to the > building my webserver was in: not much you can do about that (okay, > okay, "redundant servers," but maybe your business isn't operating at > that scale). That's four times 37signals' worst downtime. My server > stayed up for an hour or so on its UPS, but that was pretty > meaningless because the network was down. No it isn't 4 times more than their worst downtime. It is 4 times their total downtime for one year for their worst service. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 15:42:42 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:42:42 -0500 Subject: a useful list techniques to use in Linux In-Reply-To: <4F2803AD.9020600-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2803AD.9020600@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20120131154242.GL27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:07:25AM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Biggest thing for me was learning non-greedy regular expressions using > negated characters for use with egrep and sed. I don't use grep at all > now, and rarely use a .* or .+. > > Next up, here documents were a revelation for me. Sometimes the need > arises, and being able to ssh foo < bash script say is remarkably handy sometimes. > > Last, I was quite pleased to learn that dd responds to SIGUSR1 and will > display its status if you ask it nicely. Start a dd in a new terminal or > screen session: > > [9:51:31|12-01-31]jamon at jamon:pts/5: /home/jamon > 0 % dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null > > Then send it SIGUSR1: > pkill -SIGUSR1 dd > > You'll see something like this: > 7029904+0 records in > 7029904+0 records out > 3599310848 bytes (3.6 GB) copied, 2.23009 s, 1.6 GB/s > > Quite handy for large dd operations. Combine with watch (or watch -d on > the target dd output file if applicable?) and you've got a decent way to > monitor progress. I tend to do: dd if=/... of=/... bs=... etc & while killall -USR1 dd; do sleep 5; done It conviniently stops when dd is done (or at least within 5 seconds of it being done. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 16:15:40 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:15:40 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) Message-ID: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> This only applies to Ontario. From http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/news/newsItem.asp?newsItemID=5933 > The IESO will perform a voltage reduction test on Tuesday, > February 7, 2012. Voltage reductions are tested every 18 months > to simulate emergency actions available to the IESO to maintain > system reliability. There will be a three percent voltage reduction > test between 9:00 and 10:00 EST, followed by a five percent test > between 13:00 and 14:00 EST. The IESO will measure the electricity > load reduction resulting from these voltage changes. The results > of these tests will be used to analyze and update our emergency > preparedness procedures. Electricity consumers should be unaffected > as voltages will remain within industry standards specified for > equipment used by residential and commercial consumers. Consumers > with questions or concerns about the test should contact their > local distribution company. A list of local distribution companies > is available at http://www.ieso.ca/findutility. More information > about voltage reductions is available on the IESO website at > http://www.ieso.ca/voltagereduction or by contacting IESO Customer > Relations. We get to find out how good our power supplies and UPS systems are. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 16:21:03 2012 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:21:03 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <20120131161540.GB27835-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4F2814EF.6020702@alteeve.com> On 01/31/2012 11:15 AM, Walter Dnes wrote: > This only applies to Ontario. From > http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/news/newsItem.asp?newsItemID=5933 > >> The IESO will perform a voltage reduction test on Tuesday, >> February 7, 2012. Voltage reductions are tested every 18 months >> to simulate emergency actions available to the IESO to maintain >> system reliability. There will be a three percent voltage reduction >> test between 9:00 and 10:00 EST, followed by a five percent test >> between 13:00 and 14:00 EST. The IESO will measure the electricity >> load reduction resulting from these voltage changes. The results >> of these tests will be used to analyze and update our emergency >> preparedness procedures. Electricity consumers should be unaffected >> as voltages will remain within industry standards specified for >> equipment used by residential and commercial consumers. Consumers >> with questions or concerns about the test should contact their >> local distribution company. A list of local distribution companies >> is available at http://www.ieso.ca/findutility. More information >> about voltage reductions is available on the IESO website at >> http://www.ieso.ca/voltagereduction or by contacting IESO Customer >> Relations. > > We get to find out how good our power supplies and UPS systems are. Eek, thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to enable logging on my UPS. :) -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 16:20:38 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:20:38 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <20120131161540.GB27835-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4F2814D6.50803@gmail.com> since all the stuff we use also works in USA, where they are 110? and we are 120-125? There should never be chance of an issue? -tl On 01/31/2012 11:15 AM, Walter Dnes wrote: > This only applies to Ontario. From > http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/news/newsItem.asp?newsItemID=5933 > >> The IESO will perform a voltage reduction test on Tuesday, >> February 7, 2012. Voltage reductions are tested every 18 months >> to simulate emergency actions available to the IESO to maintain >> system reliability. There will be a three percent voltage reduction >> test between 9:00 and 10:00 EST, followed by a five percent test >> between 13:00 and 14:00 EST. The IESO will measure the electricity >> load reduction resulting from these voltage changes. The results >> of these tests will be used to analyze and update our emergency >> preparedness procedures. Electricity consumers should be unaffected >> as voltages will remain within industry standards specified for >> equipment used by residential and commercial consumers. Consumers >> with questions or concerns about the test should contact their >> local distribution company. A list of local distribution companies >> is available at http://www.ieso.ca/findutility. More information >> about voltage reductions is available on the IESO website at >> http://www.ieso.ca/voltagereduction or by contacting IESO Customer >> Relations. > We get to find out how good our power supplies and UPS systems are. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 16:34:23 2012 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:34:23 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <20120131161540.GB27835-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 31 January 2012 11:15, Walter Dnes wrote: > ?We get to find out how good our power supplies and UPS systems are. Most power supplies, these days, are designed for nominal input voltages down to 100V. Japan runs at 100V and manufacturers don't bother designing specific supplies just for them. Look and any universal switching wall wart. I bet it will say 100-240VAC. PC power supplies usually specify 90V minimum. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 16:40:47 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:40:47 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <20120131161540.GB27835-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4F28198F.1080607@rogers.com> Walter Dnes wrote: > The IESO will perform a voltage reduction test on Tuesday, > February 7, 2012. Voltage reductions are tested every 18 months > to simulate emergency actions available to the IESO to maintain > system reliability. There will be a three percent voltage reduction > test between 9:00 and 10:00 EST, followed by a five percent test > between 13:00 and 14:00 EST. I have a power line monitor that's always plugged in. It would be interesting to watch it, but I'll be at work at those times. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 16:43:21 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:43:21 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <4F2814D6.50803-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> <4F2814D6.50803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F281A29.6090002@rogers.com> Ted wrote: > since all the stuff we use also works in USA, where they are 110? and > we are 120-125? > There should never be chance of an issue? > Actually, we're frequently below 120V, sometimes significantly. However, most consumer devices can handle a wide range of voltage. Back in the days of tube type CRT TVs, we'd likely see the screen shrink. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 17:08:14 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:08:14 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <4F281A29.6090002-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> <4F2814D6.50803@gmail.com> <4F281A29.6090002@rogers.com> Message-ID: Might be fun for all those nicely engineered European-designed solar inverters from the micro-FIT program. European grid folks are usually left slack-jawed by our lax tolerances. If it's sunny and cold on the morning of the seventh, the solar units will be putting out maximum DC voltage, so the inverters will get a workout. cheers, Stewart -- http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 17:17:47 2012 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:17:47 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <4F2814D6.50803-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> <4F2814D6.50803@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Ted wrote: > since all the stuff we use also works in USA, where they are 110? and we are > 120-125? > There should never be chance of an issue? > Actually both US and Canada are standardized at 120V _nominal_ voltage on a single phase to neutral. 120V nominal phase to neutral is anywhere between 114 and 126V. Nominal AC Voltage is actually the rated mean square of the actual 60Hz sine waveform which has a peak to peak nominal voltage of about 170V so it's RMS is _about_ 120 V. -- Alejandro Imass > -tl > > > On 01/31/2012 11:15 AM, Walter Dnes wrote: >> >> ? This only applies to Ontario. ?From >> http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/news/newsItem.asp?newsItemID=5933 >> >>> The IESO will perform a voltage reduction test on Tuesday, >>> February 7, 2012. Voltage reductions are tested every 18 months >>> to simulate emergency actions available to the IESO to maintain >>> system reliability. ?There will be a three percent voltage reduction >>> test between 9:00 and 10:00 EST, followed by a five percent test >>> between 13:00 and 14:00 EST. ?The IESO will measure the electricity >>> load reduction resulting from these voltage changes. The results >>> of these tests will be used to analyze and update our emergency >>> preparedness procedures. ?Electricity consumers should be unaffected >>> as voltages will remain within industry standards specified for >>> equipment used by residential and commercial consumers. Consumers >>> with questions or concerns about the test should contact their >>> local distribution company. A list of local distribution companies >>> is available at http://www.ieso.ca/findutility. ?More information >>> about voltage reductions is available on the IESO website at >>> http://www.ieso.ca/voltagereduction or by contacting IESO Customer >>> Relations. >> >> ? We get to find out how good our power supplies and UPS systems are. >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 18:00:07 2012 From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:00:07 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <4F28198F.1080607-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> <4F28198F.1080607@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:40 AM, James Knott wrote: > Walter Dnes wrote: >> >> The IESO will perform a voltage reduction test on Tuesday, >> February 7, 2012. Voltage reductions are tested every 18 months >> to simulate emergency actions available to the IESO to maintain >> system reliability. ?There will be a three percent voltage reduction >> test between 9:00 and 10:00 EST, followed by a five percent test >> between 13:00 and 14:00 EST. > > > I have a power line monitor that's always plugged in. ?It would be > interesting to watch it, but I'll be at work at those times. > Neat-o. I don't suppose you can log to a file? I'd be interested to see the data with mine own eyes... Cheers, Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 19:05:39 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:05:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <20120131161540.GB27835-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | > There will be a three percent voltage reduction | > test between 9:00 and 10:00 EST, followed by a five percent test | > between 13:00 and 14:00 EST. There was a 5 minute power failure in our neighbourhood at 9:30. And another short one at 10:46. I don't imagine that they were connected with the test. More likely to do with the hydraulic excavator that is digging down 5m or more on the road at our driveway today. n | > The IESO will measure the electricity | > load reduction resulting from these voltage changes. I'd expect some loads to go up. Power transmission at lower voltage is less efficient and some things (like computers) take a certain amount of power, whatever the voltage is (within reason). Simple restance thingees, like baseboard heaters, water heaters, ordinary electric stoves, and incandescent lightbulbs would use less power (but some would lengthen their on time to compensate). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 19:10:18 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:10:18 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> <4F28198F.1080607@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F283C9A.4020608@rogers.com> Mike wrote: >> I have a power line monitor that's always plugged in. It would be >> > interesting to watch it, but I'll be at work at those times. >> > > Neat-o. I don't suppose you can log to a file? I'd be interested to > see the data with mine own eyes... No recording. It's simply an expanded scale analog voltmeter that shows a narrow range of voltage around 120V -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 19:30:35 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:30:35 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <4F283C9A.4020608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> <4F28198F.1080607@rogers.com> <4F283C9A.4020608@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120131193035.GM27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 02:10:18PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Mike wrote: > >>I have a power line monitor that's always plugged in. It would be > >>> interesting to watch it, but I'll be at work at those times. > >>> > >Neat-o. I don't suppose you can log to a file? I'd be interested to > >see the data with mine own eyes... > > No recording. It's simply an expanded scale analog voltmeter that > shows a narrow range of voltage around 120V I will leave my UPS logging. Current state: # cat /var/log/apcupsd.status APC : 001,043,1056 DATE : 2012-01-31 14:27:21 -0500 HOSTNAME : mythtv64 VERSION : 3.14.10 (13 September 2011) debian UPSNAME : mythtv64 CABLE : USB Cable DRIVER : USB UPS Driver UPSMODE : Stand Alone STARTTIME: 2012-01-31 14:27:17 -0500 MODEL : Smart-UPS 1500 STATUS : ONLINE LINEV : 120.2 Volts LOADPCT : 19.5 Percent Load Capacity BCHARGE : 100.0 Percent TIMELEFT : 57.0 Minutes MBATTCHG : 5 Percent MINTIMEL : 3 Minutes MAXTIME : 0 Seconds OUTPUTV : 120.2 Volts SENSE : High DWAKE : -01 Seconds DSHUTD : 090 Seconds LOTRANS : 106.0 Volts HITRANS : 127.0 Volts RETPCT : 000.0 Percent ITEMP : 24.7 C Internal ALARMDEL : 30 seconds BATTV : 27.7 Volts LINEFREQ : 60.0 Hz LASTXFER : No transfers since turnon NUMXFERS : 0 TONBATT : 0 seconds CUMONBATT: 0 seconds XOFFBATT : N/A SELFTEST : NO STESTI : 14 days STATFLAG : 0x07000008 Status Flag MANDATE : 2007-05-11 SERIALNO : AS0719222574 BATTDATE : 2007-05-11 NOMOUTV : 120 Volts NOMBATTV : 24.0 Volts FIRMWARE : 601.3.D USB FW:8.1 END APC : 2012-01-31 14:27:22 -0500 It is dumping that to logs as well every 60 seconds. # grep LINEV /var/log/syslog Jan 31 14:27:22 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts Jan 31 14:28:31 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts Jan 31 14:29:33 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From david.vangeest-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 20:07:19 2012 From: david.vangeest-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (David van Geest) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:07:19 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 2:05 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Walter Dnes > > | > ?There will be a three percent voltage reduction > | > test between 9:00 and 10:00 EST, followed by a five percent test > | > between 13:00 and 14:00 EST. > > There was a 5 minute power failure in our neighbourhood at 9:30. ?And > another short one at 10:46. > > I don't imagine that they were connected with the test. ?More likely > to do with the hydraulic excavator that is digging down 5m or more on > the road at our driveway today. Well, given that the test is scheduled for Feb. 7, I doubt your outage was connected to the test too :-). > | > ?The IESO will measure the electricity > | > load reduction resulting from these voltage changes. > > I'd expect some loads to go up. ?Power transmission at lower voltage > is less efficient and some things (like computers) take a certain > amount of power, whatever the voltage is (within reason). If the input voltage to a computer goes down, but the computer requires constant power, then the PS will draw more current (P = IV). Power would remain constant. The IESO says that overall load goes down by 500 MW (http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteShared/voltage_reduction.asp?sid=bi), so it would seem that the resistance load is significant. > > Simple restance thingees, like baseboard heaters, water heaters, > ordinary electric stoves, and incandescent lightbulbs would use less > power (but some would lengthen their on time to compensate). True, but since it's an emergency measure designed to reduce instantaneous load, it doesn't matter if they stay on longer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Jan 31 22:23:04 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 17:23:04 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20120131222304.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 03:07:19PM -0500, David van Geest wrote: > If the input voltage to a computer goes down, but the computer > requires constant power, then the PS will draw more current (P = IV). > Power would remain constant. The IESO says that overall load goes > down by 500 MW (http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteShared/voltage_reduction.asp?sid=bi), > so it would seem that the resistance load is significant. Old lightbulbs, most electric stoves, etc. probably electric heaters as well. I wonder how my stove would react to it given it is induction. > True, but since it's an emergency measure designed to reduce > instantaneous load, it doesn't matter if they stay on longer. Makes sense. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists