From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 1 13:19:28 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:19:28 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split Message-ID: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> I found this recently on Groklaw: http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 1 14:13:31 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 09:13:31 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <4F293BE0.8020507-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:19 AM, James Knott wrote: > I found this recently on Groklaw: > http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html > Awesome, thank you. I've been wondering about that since I started using Linux. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 1 18:21:09 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:21:09 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <4F293BE0.8020507-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 08:19:28AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > I found this recently on Groklaw: > http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html Well it is quite wrong. Linux didn't start using initrd/initramfs until much later in life, and even then, they are optional, so they certainly do not mean that the seperation of what is needed to mount filesystems from the normal operation of the system is obsolete. So in all it is still a useful split. Is /usr a good name for it? Probably not. No idea what a good name would be. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 1 18:34:32 2012 From: gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:34:32 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <4F293BE0.8020507-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> On 02/01/2012 08:19 AM, James Knott wrote: > I found this recently on Groklaw: > http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html > > -- Fedora wants to merge /usr. http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge -- Glen Strom gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 1 18:49:14 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:49:14 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <4F2985B8.9060107-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20120201184914.GP27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 01:34:32PM -0500, Glen Strom wrote: > On 02/01/2012 08:19 AM, James Knott wrote: > >I found this recently on Groklaw: > >http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html > > > >-- > > Fedora wants to merge /usr. > > http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge Some of it makes sense. I think their talk of being able to have a network mounted /usr is wrong and is actually less possible when everything moves to /usr. Where will 'mount' be? Perhaps they fall in to the trap of assuming an initrd is always in use (which perhaps for them it is). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 1 19:12:28 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:12:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <4F293BE0.8020507-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html At one point, /bin stuff was statically linked but /usr/bin was not. When your system (UNIX) was sick and came up in single user mode, only / was mounted and only stuff in /bin was supposed to work. The /bin /sbin distinction is useful, I think. But maybe no longer, given that we're moving towards finer priviledge distinctions than the root / non-root of the good old days. I never did get /local vs /usr/local. /opt was a Sun invention, I think. If distinctions are not going to be clearly and simply made, then perhaps it is time to get rid of them. In the good old days, searching for binaries in too many directories (i.e. a long list in $PATH) caused real slowdown. I think that it still costs more than is recognized. There are way too many entries in these directories. In general, BASH startup is quite expensive. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 1 20:36:47 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:36:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120201184914.GP27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> <20120201184914.GP27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1328128607.65374.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >> >I found this recently on Groklaw: >> >http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html >> >> Fedora wants to merge /usr. >> >> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge > >Some of it makes sense.? I think their talk of being able to have >a network mounted /usr is wrong and is actually less possible when >everything moves to /usr.? Where will 'mount' be?? Perhaps they fall in >to the trap of assuming an initrd is always in use (which perhaps for >them it is). Maybe it's heading that way.? If that's the case, then I'm well ahead of curve.? My / is one big RAID5.? And, I boot from 256MB USB stick which only has LILO, kernel, and initrd. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 1 22:29:47 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 17:29:47 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) In-Reply-To: <20120131161540.GB27835-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 31 January 2012 11:15, Walter Dnes wrote: > ?This only applies to Ontario. ?From > http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/news/newsItem.asp?newsItemID=5933 > >> The IESO will perform a voltage reduction test on Tuesday, >> February 7, 2012. Voltage reductions are tested every 18 months >> to simulate emergency actions available to the IESO to maintain >> system reliability. ?There will be a three percent voltage reduction >> test between 9:00 and 10:00 EST, followed by a five percent test >> between 13:00 and 14:00 EST. ?The IESO will measure the electricity >> load reduction resulting from these voltage changes. The results >> of these tests will be used to analyze and update our emergency >> preparedness procedures. ?Electricity consumers should be unaffected >> as voltages will remain within industry standards specified for >> equipment used by residential and commercial consumers. Consumers >> with questions or concerns about the test should contact their >> local distribution company. A list of local distribution companies >> is available at http://www.ieso.ca/findutility. ?More information >> about voltage reductions is available on the IESO website at >> http://www.ieso.ca/voltagereduction or by contacting IESO Customer >> Relations. > > ?We get to find out how good our power supplies and UPS systems are. The distribution voltages that IESO deals in are likely in the hundreds of kiloVolts range ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_grid_simple-_North_America.svg ). The amount of "smart" electrical equipment between your wall socket and IESO's point of origin would suggest that the chance of us seeing a voltage change would be about nil. If you work at a company that has its own substation (Google, Amazon ...), you might notice. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 2 01:38:05 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 20:38:05 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <4F2985B8.9060107-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20120202013805.GA18522@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 01:34:32PM -0500, Glen Strom wrote > On 02/01/2012 08:19 AM, James Knott wrote: > > I found this recently on Groklaw: > > http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html > > Fedora wants to merge /usr. > > http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge The sad part is that Redhat (the people behind Fedora) also employ the lead developers for udev, and they're trying to make udev unuseable without /usr being present. For the average user, udev is a necessity. By hiring/co-opting the udev lead developers, Redhat hopes to ram the Redhat-compatable format down everybody elses's throats. Well, I'm not the average user. See... http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/msg_bc91b392ee0f76376104591cdf7dc5f0.xml for Gentoo-specific instructions on how to use busybox's mdev in place of udev. It runs fine on my desktop. There may be exotic stuff that requires udev, but I get along fine with mdev. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 2 17:06:05 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:06:05 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120202013805.GA18522-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> <20120202013805.GA18522@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: Walter > ?The sad part is that Redhat (the people behind Fedora) also employ the > lead developers for udev, and they're trying to make udev unuseable > without /usr being present. I really disagree this has anything to do with RedHat. Redhat happen to just employ the majority of the kernel developer which is something to be glad about, not something to whine about. Really, if most of the other big vendors like google could invest on the kernel like Redhat, Linux would be even better The consequence of having most of the kernel dev as RedHat employees is that people start feeling like Redhat control how the kernel development evolve. This can not be correct, most of the kernel developers are top rate C programmers and can not be controlled like a college school kids. So, despite Redhat being their employer, how udev development evolve has more to do with the kernel developers taste than Redhat influence. Which mean, it would not matter if they were employed by Google or IBM for that matter. William > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 2 18:34:12 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 13:34:12 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> <20120202013805.GA18522@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4F2AD724.2050007@ss.org> On 02/02/2012 12:06 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Walter >> The sad part is that Redhat (the people behind Fedora) also employ the >> lead developers for udev, and they're trying to make udev unuseable >> without /usr being present. > > I really disagree this has anything to do with RedHat. Redhat happen > to just employ the majority of the kernel developer which is something > to be glad about, not something to whine about. Really, if most of the > other big vendors like google could invest on the kernel like Redhat, > Linux would be even better > > The consequence of having most of the kernel dev as RedHat employees > is that people start feeling like Redhat control how the kernel > development evolve. This can not be correct, most of the kernel > developers are top rate C programmers and can not be controlled like a > college school kids. So, despite Redhat being their employer, how udev > development evolve has more to do with the kernel developers taste > than Redhat influence. Which mean, it would not matter if they were > employed by Google or IBM for that matter. > > William > William, Thank you! I find it rather distasteful when people claim Fedora is just a facade for Red Hat. It's a real disservice to claim the smaller overlap with developers employed by Red Hat is the larger community as a whole. It is true that Red Hat provides the Fedora Community with a lot of support in the form of Infrastructure. But they see a benefit in supporting the Fedora community because they can benefit from all the development work that the community does. This is the same way we all benefit by the nature of open-source. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 2 19:45:18 2012 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 14:45:18 -0500 Subject: Have you ever edited OpenStreetMap ? Message-ID: Dear all, It has been a while since my OpenStreetMap talk at TLUG[0]. It is gratifying to see that several of you have become regular mappers, and that even more of you at least dipped your toe into the mapping pool. :-) You'll recall from the 'most scintillating' slide in my talk that OSM data is CC-By-SA[1], and transitioning to ODbL[2]. That transition will be completed in early April after almost five years. Part of that transition is asking each previous contributor for permission to continue using their data under the new license. So far, authors of ~99% of the data in Canada have agreed. Mappers have been reaching out to find the other mappers we've lost touch with. Today I was surprised to see a name I recognize from this list hadn't replied yet. Perhaps there are others. If you have ever contributed data (logged in and edited) to OpenStreetMap, please read on and update your OSM contact details. If you are curious to know more about OpenStreetMap, we have a vibrant OpenStreetMap community in Southern Ontario, including groups that meet monthly in Toronto and Waterloo Region. It would be super to have you join us for refreshments and conversation some time! We keep our schedules online here, http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Toronto/ http://www.meetup.com/Waterloo-OSM/ I encourage you to have another look at OpenStreetMap and improve the data in places that you care about. You'll need to login and agree to the upgraded license and contributor terms. http://openstreetmap.org/user/terms This is important even if you don't plan to do any more mapping. We need your permission to keep your earlier contributions and even if they are few or modest, other mappers may have built upon them. Feel free to send any questions you might have. I'll do my best to answer them. Best regards and Mappy New Year, Richard [0] http://gtalug.org/wiki/Meetings:2009-02 [1] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ [2] http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 2 20:59:33 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 15:59:33 -0500 Subject: Videos available of linux.conf.au talks Message-ID: Lots of interesting stuff: http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/linux.conf.au/2012/ Jacob Appelbaum - a lead developer of the Tor Project - gave an excellent, call-to-action talk on surveillance and censorship. Linux Weekly News summary: http://lwn.net/Articles/477032/ ... and video link: http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/linux.conf.au/2012/Keynote_Jacob_Appelbaum.ogv -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 2 21:28:52 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 16:28:52 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> <20120202013805.GA18522@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20120202212851.GA4131@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 12:06:05PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote > Walter > > ?The sad part is that Redhat (the people behind Fedora) also employ the > > lead developers for udev, and they're trying to make udev unuseable > > without /usr being present. > > I really disagree this has anything to do with RedHat. Redhat happen > to just employ the majority of the kernel developer which is something > to be glad about, not something to whine about. Really, if most of the > other big vendors like google could invest on the kernel like Redhat, > Linux would be even better > > The consequence of having most of the kernel dev as RedHat employees > is that people start feeling like Redhat control how the kernel > development evolve. This can not be correct, most of the kernel > developers are top rate C programmers and can not be controlled like a > college school kids. So, despite Redhat being their employer, how udev > development evolve has more to do with the kernel developers taste > than Redhat influence. Which mean, it would not matter if they were > employed by Google or IBM for that matter. In that case, why is the Fedora Project bragging about the specific benefits to Fedora? See... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove#Benefit_to_Fedora The main reason for for the bad feelings towards Redhat/Fedora is that overhead for stuff that benefits Redhat/Fedora could be forced on other distros. If Fedora wants to use systemd, and it doesn't affect Gentoo, fine, I have no problems with that. But when they make changes to basic system services like udevd that would force *ALL* distros to re-organize disk drives, that's when the complaints from everybody else starts. If Fedora had gone with their own service/tool/add-on that was launched by udevd early on and did the Fedora thing, none of this animosity would've happened. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 2 21:36:22 2012 From: stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stephen Gordon) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 16:36:22 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120202212851.GA4131-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> <20120202013805.GA18522@waltdnes.org> <20120202212851.GA4131@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 12:06:05PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote >> Walter >> > ?The sad part is that Redhat (the people behind Fedora) also employ the >> > lead developers for udev, and they're trying to make udev unuseable >> > without /usr being present. >> >> I really disagree this has anything to do with RedHat. ?Redhat happen >> to just employ the majority of the kernel developer which is something >> to be glad about, not something to whine about. Really, if most of the >> other big vendors like google could invest on the kernel like Redhat, >> Linux would be even better >> >> The consequence of having most of the kernel dev as RedHat employees >> is that people start feeling like Redhat control how the kernel >> development evolve. ?This can not be correct, most of the kernel >> developers are top rate C programmers and can not be controlled like a >> college school kids. So, despite Redhat being their employer, how udev >> development evolve has more to do with the kernel developers taste >> than Redhat influence. ?Which mean, it would not matter if they were >> employed by Google or IBM for that matter. > > ?In that case, why is the Fedora Project bragging about the specific > benefits to Fedora? ?See... > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove#Benefit_to_Fedora That is a requirement of the Features process for Fedora. Every Feature page has that section and if you can't list some benefits then it's highly unlike that feature will get accepted. It could just as easily say 'Benefits to GNU/Linux', particularly given the reasons a Feature is desirable for Fedora are exactly the same reasons they are desirable for other distributions. Steve > ?The main reason for for the bad feelings towards Redhat/Fedora is that > overhead for stuff that benefits Redhat/Fedora could be forced on other > distros. ?If Fedora wants to use systemd, and it doesn't affect Gentoo, > fine, I have no problems with that. ?But when they make changes to basic > system services like udevd that would force *ALL* distros to re-organize > disk drives, that's when the complaints from everybody else starts. ?If > Fedora had gone with their own service/tool/add-on that was launched by > udevd early on and did the Fedora thing, none of this animosity would've > happened. > > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 2 22:41:19 2012 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 17:41:19 -0500 Subject: Videos available of linux.conf.au talks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > Lots of interesting stuff: > > http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/linux.conf.au/2012/ > > Jacob Appelbaum - a lead developer of the Tor Project - gave an > excellent, call-to-action talk on surveillance and censorship. Linux > Weekly News summary: > > http://lwn.net/Articles/477032/ > > ... and video link: > > http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/linux.conf.au/2012/Keynote_Jacob_Appelbaum.ogv I haven't had a chance to read the following article yet (or verify the integrity of the site; I'm not familiar with it) but this also showed up in my inbox today via Pirate Parties International: Do You Like Online Privacy? You May Be a Terrorist "A flyer designed by the FBI and the Department of Justice to promote suspicious activity reporting in internet cafes lists basic tools used for online privacy as potential signs of terrorist activity. The document, part of a program called ?Communities Against Terrorism?, lists the use of ?anonymizers, portals, or other means to shield IP address? as a sign that a person could be engaged in or supporting terrorist activity." -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 02:17:06 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:17:06 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120202212851.GA4131-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> <20120202013805.GA18522@waltdnes.org> <20120202212851.GA4131@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4F2B43A2.90305@dinamis.com> On 02/02/2012 04:28 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > In that case, why is the Fedora Project bragging about the specific > benefits to Fedora? See... > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove#Benefit_to_Fedora > > The main reason for for the bad feelings towards Redhat/Fedora is that > overhead for stuff that benefits Redhat/Fedora could be forced on other > distros. Those people with "bad feelings" are the ones with a problem, not the Red Hat/Fedora folks. Who forces anything on anyone? The last I checked, Gentoo folks were free to be as different as they wanted to be. > If Fedora wants to use systemd, and it doesn't affect Gentoo, > fine, I have no problems with that. But when they make changes to basic > system services like udevd that would force *ALL* distros to re-organize > disk drives, that's when the complaints from everybody else starts. If > Fedora had gone with their own service/tool/add-on that was launched by > udevd early on and did the Fedora thing, none of this animosity would've > happened. If udevd is so awful and it's going to "force *ALL* distros to re-organize disk drives", whatever that means, it will die an ignoble death regardless of who is behind it. If Gentoo folks, or others, don't like it, they are free to come up with something better or ignore it. You said there is a workaround. Maybe that will become "the standard". The beauty of open source is that differences of opinion and implementation aren't just tolerated but encouraged. I happily use Fedora 16. I don't know what the fuss is about udevd and I like it that way because it means it's working. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 15:18:41 2012 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 10:18:41 -0500 Subject: Linux TV Message-ID: I'm looking for advice on current digital tv tuners. I'd like to find a local shop, but I have a hard time sorting through the sites only to find they don't have much of what we are looking for. Just installed Fedora 16 for a friend and they want to try a digital tv tuner. I saw this one on Frontier Direct Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250 Hybrid Video Recorder Anyone experienced with this or similar cards they purchased locally. Looking to spend $100 or so. Thanks in advance. Russell -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 15:58:47 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 10:58:47 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Russell Reiter wrote: > I'm looking for advice on current digital tv tuners. I'd like to find > a local shop, but I have a hard time sorting through the sites only to > find they don't have much of what we are looking for. > > Just installed Fedora 16 for a friend and they want to try a digital tv tuner. > > I saw this one on Frontier Direct > Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250 Hybrid Video Recorder > > Anyone experienced with this or similar cards they purchased locally. > > Looking to spend $100 or so. I've got an HVR-1250. Solid basic, single tuner PCI Express card. On paper it can do analog and digital, but last time I checked the Linux driver for analog wasn't up to stuff, so, this card should be seen as a digital only card. Cost at Canada Computers $69.99 and at the time this message was being written some of Canada Computers Toronto area shops do show the card as being in stock : http://canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=44_562&item_id=019081 . Bottom line in all this, a good budget TV tuner card, very usable with a TV antenna, and useless with Rogers cable (all Rogers digital channels are encrypted (an encryption the HVR-1250 can't deal with), and Rogers has announced plans to drop all analog service here in Toronto). Depending on your antenna, location in the GTA, etc., this card should get you about 20 different local over the air TV channels. The other digital card I bought locally was a Hauppauge HVR-1600 which is a dual tuner card (one analog only tuner and one digital only tuner). Depending on how you plan to deal with the end of Rogers analog service, or if you want to be able to feed analog material in from say an old TV camera this might be a better (or worse) choice than the HVR-1250. With the HVR-1600 you can watch/record two programs at the same time. Both the analog and digital sides of the HVR-1600 are supported under Linux, and while I got my HVR-1600 as part of a clearance sale, I see they are still available locally, for $109.99 : http://canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=44_562&item_id=012995 . Hope this helps. Colin > Thanks in advance. > > Russell > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 17:09:42 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:09:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Colin McGregor | On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Russell Reiter wrote: | > Just installed Fedora 16 for a friend and they want to try a digital tv tuner. As Colin points out, digital TV tuners are ONLY useful in Canada with an antena. Digital signals from cable companies in Canada are all encrypted in a way that forces you to use a cable-company settop box. Bell signals are actually worse in theory (only one channel's signal gets to you), but that isn't any worse in practice. If you are forced to use a STB, you can only capture the analogue output. And your card doesn't get to tune -- the STB does. For capturing you can use one of a bunch of cards. Common wisdom is that you want ones that do hardware MPEG encoding to cut down the load on the computer; this may not matter now because CPUs have gotten more powerful in the last 10 years. Hauppauge even makes a box that can capture component video, an analogue HD output available from some STBs. Sometimes NCIX or Dell has these on sale at a noticeable discount. There is also a PCIe version of this called the Colossus. I don't even know if it works under Linux. So: for more focussed advice, you should tell us where the TV signal is coming from. And where it might come from in the future, if that is likely to be different. Note that there is a MythGTA mailing list. It is described at the bottom of -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 17:26:09 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:26:09 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120203172609.GQ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 12:09:42PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > As Colin points out, digital TV tuners are ONLY useful in Canada with > an antena. Digital signals from cable companies in Canada are all > encrypted in a way that forces you to use a cable-company settop box. > Bell signals are actually worse in theory (only one channel's signal > gets to you), but that isn't any worse in practice. > > If you are forced to use a STB, you can only capture the analogue > output. And your card doesn't get to tune -- the STB does. For > capturing you can use one of a bunch of cards. Common wisdom is that > you want ones that do hardware MPEG encoding to cut down the load on > the computer; this may not matter now because CPUs have gotten more > powerful in the last 10 years. > > Hauppauge even makes a box that can capture component video, an > analogue HD output available from some STBs. > Sometimes > NCIX or Dell has these on sale at a noticeable discount. There is > also a PCIe version of this called the Colossus. I don't even know if > it works under Linux. > It does not, and apparently the chip maker is hostile towards open source from what I found in the quick search I did. > So: for more focussed advice, you should tell us where the TV signal > is coming from. And where it might come from in the future, if that is > likely to be different. > > Note that there is a MythGTA mailing list. It is described at the > bottom of -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 17:40:05 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:40:05 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 12:09 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Colin McGregor > > | On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Russell Reiter wrote: > > | > Just installed Fedora 16 for a friend and they want to try a digital tv tuner. > > As Colin points out, digital TV tuners are ONLY useful in Canada with > an antena. ?Digital signals from cable companies in Canada are all > encrypted in a way that forces you to use a cable-company settop box. > Bell signals are actually worse in theory (only one channel's signal > gets to you), but that isn't any worse in practice. Not that simple, some (strong emphasis on the word some) Non-Rogers cable companies do offer some (again emphasis on the word some) digital channels without encryption. So, if you are in a non-Rogers area, a digital tuner MIGHT be useful with the local cable TV company (you would have to do some more research). In Rogers cable areas, then the only value to a digital tuner is with an antenna, and the number of channels you can get with the antenna will depend on several factors... > If you are forced to use a STB, you can only capture the analogue > output. ?And your card doesn't get to tune -- the STB does. ?For > capturing you can use one of a bunch of cards. ?Common wisdom is that > you want ones that do hardware MPEG encoding to cut down the load on > the computer; this may not matter now because CPUs have gotten more > powerful in the last 10 years. > > Hauppauge even makes a box that can capture component video, an > analogue HD output available from some STBs. > ? Sometimes > NCIX or Dell has these on sale at a noticeable discount. ?There is > also a PCIe version of this called the Colossus. ?I don't even know if > it works under Linux. > ? > > So: for more focussed advice, you should tell us where the TV signal > is coming from. ?And where it might come from in the future, if that is > likely to be different. > > Note that there is a MythGTA mailing list. ?It is described at the > bottom of Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 17:54:22 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:54:22 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> i use the hauppy hdpvr on debian (linux DE mint). it is nice because the DRM doesn't extend to analogue component, and it takes the analogue component out and 1080i or 720p captures it. Now you lose a bit in that you have gone from dig->ana->dig, but its still pretty good. On a BR source its hard to tell difference because its so clear to begin with. Only issue is you have to futz with the "IR mouse" to have the hdpvr control the STB (i havn't done this, just to manual sync). Main issue is it ignores the DRM which is nice. a company online was selling a dvi to component converter for about 100$ to allow use with dvi out only devices, but they don't seem to be selling it anymore. Fortunately most cable PVR (if not all) still have comp out. -tl On 02/03/2012 12:09 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Colin McGregor > > | On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Russell Reiter wrote: > > |> Just installed Fedora 16 for a friend and they want to try a digital tv tuner. > > As Colin points out, digital TV tuners are ONLY useful in Canada with > an antena. Digital signals from cable companies in Canada are all > encrypted in a way that forces you to use a cable-company settop box. > Bell signals are actually worse in theory (only one channel's signal > gets to you), but that isn't any worse in practice. > > If you are forced to use a STB, you can only capture the analogue > output. And your card doesn't get to tune -- the STB does. For > capturing you can use one of a bunch of cards. Common wisdom is that > you want ones that do hardware MPEG encoding to cut down the load on > the computer; this may not matter now because CPUs have gotten more > powerful in the last 10 years. > > Hauppauge even makes a box that can capture component video, an > analogue HD output available from some STBs. > Sometimes > NCIX or Dell has these on sale at a noticeable discount. There is > also a PCIe version of this called the Colossus. I don't even know if > it works under Linux. > > > So: for more focussed advice, you should tell us where the TV signal > is coming from. And where it might come from in the future, if that is > likely to be different. > > Note that there is a MythGTA mailing list. It is described at the > bottom of > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 18:02:55 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 13:02:55 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: <4F2C1F4E.7020807-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F2C214F.7010403@utoronto.ca> On 2/3/2012 12:54 PM, Ted wrote: > i use the hauppy hdpvr > on debian (linux DE mint). > > it is nice because the DRM doesn't extend to analogue component, and it > takes the analogue component out and 1080i or 720p captures it. > Now you lose a bit in that you have gone from dig->ana->dig, but its > still pretty good. On a BR source its hard to tell difference because > its so clear to begin with. BlackMagic have an HDMI capture card (or box) that works with Linux. That way you'd have digital right from your Rogers box. Driver notes: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/media/3225450/Blackmagic_Desktop_Video_Linux_9.1.txt I think things have progressed since this guide was written e.g. gstreamer bundles a plugin for the card now. http://opencast.jira.com/wiki/display/MH/Blackmagic+Design+Intensity+Pro+%28PCIe%29+HDMI Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 18:11:47 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:11:47 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: <4F2C214F.7010403-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> <4F2C214F.7010403@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20120203181147.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 01:02:55PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 2/3/2012 12:54 PM, Ted wrote: > > i use the hauppy hdpvr > > on debian (linux DE mint). > > > > it is nice because the DRM doesn't extend to analogue component, and it > > takes the analogue component out and 1080i or 720p captures it. > > Now you lose a bit in that you have gone from dig->ana->dig, but its > > still pretty good. On a BR source its hard to tell difference because > > its so clear to begin with. > > BlackMagic have an HDMI capture card (or box) that works with Linux. > That way you'd have digital right from your Rogers box. Driver notes: > http://www.blackmagic-design.com/media/3225450/Blackmagic_Desktop_Video_Linux_9.1.txt But only HDMI without HDCP. Obviously there is HDCP used on the rogers box output. It is for people editing their own material, not for capturing from cable boxes. > I think things have progressed since this guide was written e.g. > gstreamer bundles a plugin for the card now. > > http://opencast.jira.com/wiki/display/MH/Blackmagic+Design+Intensity+Pro+%28PCIe%29+HDMI -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 18:23:09 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 13:23:09 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: <20120203181147.GR27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> <4F2C214F.7010403@utoronto.ca> <20120203181147.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F2C260D.4090906@utoronto.ca> On 2/3/2012 1:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 01:02:55PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> On 2/3/2012 12:54 PM, Ted wrote: >>> i use the hauppy hdpvr >>> on debian (linux DE mint). >>> >>> it is nice because the DRM doesn't extend to analogue component, and it >>> takes the analogue component out and 1080i or 720p captures it. >>> Now you lose a bit in that you have gone from dig->ana->dig, but its >>> still pretty good. On a BR source its hard to tell difference because >>> its so clear to begin with. >> >> BlackMagic have an HDMI capture card (or box) that works with Linux. >> That way you'd have digital right from your Rogers box. Driver notes: >> http://www.blackmagic-design.com/media/3225450/Blackmagic_Desktop_Video_Linux_9.1.txt > > But only HDMI without HDCP. Obviously there is HDCP used on the rogers > box output. > > It is for people editing their own material, not for capturing from > cable boxes. Seems like there's still a way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r4BkAzkCV8 - around 2:30 he describes cabling. HDMI+HDCP (PS3) -> DVI+SPDIF cables -> HDMI signal -> BlackMagic Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 18:49:07 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 13:49:07 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: <4F2C260D.4090906-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> <4F2C214F.7010403@utoronto.ca> <20120203181147.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F2C260D.4090906@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4F2C2C23.9010903@gmail.com> the converter box must be dropping the DRM HDCP packets? These types of converters were/are a target for shut down (by certain political bodies), and from what I saw, hard to get. Wonder if this is the case with this converter. -tl On 02/03/2012 01:23 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 2/3/2012 1:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 01:02:55PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: >>> On 2/3/2012 12:54 PM, Ted wrote: >>>> i use the hauppy hdpvr >>>> on debian (linux DE mint). >>>> >>>> it is nice because the DRM doesn't extend to analogue component, and it >>>> takes the analogue component out and 1080i or 720p captures it. >>>> Now you lose a bit in that you have gone from dig->ana->dig, but its >>>> still pretty good. On a BR source its hard to tell difference because >>>> its so clear to begin with. >>> BlackMagic have an HDMI capture card (or box) that works with Linux. >>> That way you'd have digital right from your Rogers box. Driver notes: >>> http://www.blackmagic-design.com/media/3225450/Blackmagic_Desktop_Video_Linux_9.1.txt >> But only HDMI without HDCP. Obviously there is HDCP used on the rogers >> box output. >> >> It is for people editing their own material, not for capturing from >> cable boxes. > Seems like there's still a way: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r4BkAzkCV8 - around 2:30 he describes > cabling. > > HDMI+HDCP (PS3) -> DVI+SPDIF cables -> HDMI signal -> BlackMagic > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 18:56:03 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:56:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: <4F2C1F4E.7020807-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Ted | Fortunately most cable PVR (if not all) still have comp | out. I think you mean STB (Set Top Box), not (just) PVR (Personal Video Recorder). "comp" is unfortunately ambiguous. It could mean "composite" (typically for analogue SD) or "component" (typically for analogue HD). My Rogers HD STBs have both composite and component out. The SD boxes have composite but not component out. There is pressure to eliminate component support since it is claimed to facilitate piracy. It is true that it allows avoidance of DRM (that's why we're talking about it), but I don't consider that piracy. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 19:04:26 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 14:04:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: <4F2C2C23.9010903-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> <4F2C214F.7010403@utoronto.ca> <20120203181147.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F2C260D.4090906@utoronto.ca> <4F2C2C23.9010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Ted [top-posting is hard to read, so I've fixed your posting.] | On 02/03/2012 01:23 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: | > On 2/3/2012 1:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: | > > On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 01:02:55PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: | > > > BlackMagic have an HDMI capture card (or box) that works with Linux. | > > > That way you'd have digital right from your Rogers box. Driver notes: | > > > http://www.blackmagic-design.com/media/3225450/Blackmagic_Desktop_Video_Linux_9.1.txt | > > But only HDMI without HDCP. Obviously there is HDCP used on the rogers | > > box output. | > > | > > It is for people editing their own material, not for capturing from | > > cable boxes. | > Seems like there's still a way: | > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r4BkAzkCV8 - around 2:30 he describes | > cabling. | > | > HDMI+HDCP (PS3) -> DVI+SPDIF cables -> HDMI signal -> BlackMagic | the converter box must be dropping the DRM HDCP packets? | These types of converters were/are a target for shut down (by certain | political bodies), and from what I saw, hard to get. | Wonder if this is the case with this converter. If HDCP is done as sensibly, this should be impossible without somehow getting a private key for HDCP. Pretty fishy if they've done this. HDCP is supposed to do a handshake, with signatures, to prove to upstream that downstream is worthy. It is tricky but well-known how to avoid man-in-the-middle attacks. "Worthy" means: part of the cartel enforcing non-leakage of signals. I have not looked at the youtube video. I assume that it requires Adobe Flash, something I don't have on my desktop. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 19:31:37 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 14:31:37 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Sammy, On 13 January 2012 20:52, Sammy Lao wrote: > I am at best buy right now. > > $399 will get you an ugly 15.6 inch i3 with 4gb of ddr3 ram. > > There is a white Samsung net book for $249 -- open box. The Acer net > book has a regular price of $259. Were these netbooks selling with Linux installed? I am interested in a netbook that ship with Linux and have bluetooth to tether with Black berry I can install Linux later but would rather not buy it with Windows as that mean money spend on software that I do not need. > > Pricing has gotten very aggressive lately on laptops and netbook. > > That is good with me William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 19:31:08 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 14:31:08 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: References: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> <4F2C214F.7010403@utoronto.ca> <20120203181147.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F2C260D.4090906@utoronto.ca> <4F2C2C23.9010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120203193107.GA4460@node1.opengeometry.net> You guys are watching too much TV! You'll go blind. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 19:44:06 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 14:44:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: | From: William Muriithi | On 13 January 2012 20:52, Sammy Lao wrote: | > I am at best buy right now. | > | > $399 will get you an ugly 15.6 inch i3 with 4gb of ddr3 ram. | > | > There is a white Samsung net book for $249 -- open box. The Acer net | > book has a regular price of $259. | | Were these netbooks selling with Linux installed? I am interested in a | netbook that ship with Linux and have bluetooth to tether with Black | berry I don't think that Best Buy would ever sell a notebook with Linux preloaded. If you exclude a brief period where netbooks came with Linux, I don't think any mass-market storefront has sold netbooks or notebooks with Linux preloaded. As pathetic as it is, Dell's modest offerings of notebooks preloaded with Linux is as good as it gets. On the other hand, I think Sammy's organization will sell you refurbished notebooks with Linux pre-installed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 20:06:49 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:06:49 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <20120203200649.GA5051@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 02:44:06PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I don't think that Best Buy would ever sell a notebook with Linux > preloaded. Or, with English keyboard for that matter. At stores yesterday, every laptop that I saw had French keyboard. I'm wondering whether it's just for display, or whether they are actually trying to sell French keyboard in GTA. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 20:29:33 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:29:33 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: <20120203200649.GA5051-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> <20120203200649.GA5051@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F2C43AD.6000400@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 02:44:06PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> I don't think that Best Buy would ever sell a notebook with Linux >> preloaded. > Or, with English keyboard for that matter. At stores yesterday, every > laptop that I saw had French keyboard. I'm wondering whether it's just > for display, or whether they are actually trying to sell French keyboard > in GTA. French or multilingual? A friend bought a Dell a few months back. She returned it to get a ThinkPad with a "normal" English keyboard. The ThinkPad I bought in October also had the regular keyboard. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 22:01:42 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 17:01:42 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: <4F2C260D.4090906-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> <4F2C214F.7010403@utoronto.ca> <20120203181147.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F2C260D.4090906@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20120203220142.GS27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 01:23:09PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Seems like there's still a way: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r4BkAzkCV8 - around 2:30 he describes > cabling. > > HDMI+HDCP (PS3) -> DVI+SPDIF cables -> HDMI signal -> BlackMagic That's just for gameplay. It seems that for gameplay the PS3 has HDCP enabled (The xbox 360 does NOT, and that makes sense since it is your gameplay) even though it shouldn't really. This "workaround" probably is just working due to the ps3 probably not really caring about HDCP on gameplay, but having it enabled anyhow. I doubt it would work for recording blueray playback. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 22:10:45 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 17:10:45 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: <4F2C43AD.6000400-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> <20120203200649.GA5051@node1.opengeometry.net> <4F2C43AD.6000400@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120203221044.GA6369@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 03:29:33PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > William Park wrote: > >On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 02:44:06PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >>I don't think that Best Buy would ever sell a notebook with Linux > >>preloaded. > >Or, with English keyboard for that matter. At stores yesterday, every > >laptop that I saw had French keyboard. I'm wondering whether it's just > >for display, or whether they are actually trying to sell French keyboard > >in GTA. > > French or multilingual? A friend bought a Dell a few months back. She > returned it to get a ThinkPad with a "normal" English keyboard. The > ThinkPad I bought in October also had the regular keyboard. It had bunch of non-ASCII symbols, and the key layout was either Keytronics or IBM. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 22:16:07 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 17:16:07 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: References: <4F2C1F4E.7020807@gmail.com> <4F2C214F.7010403@utoronto.ca> <20120203181147.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F2C260D.4090906@utoronto.ca> <4F2C2C23.9010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120203221607.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 02:04:26PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > If HDCP is done as sensibly, this should be impossible without somehow > getting a private key for HDCP. Pretty fishy if they've done this. > > HDCP is supposed to do a handshake, with signatures, to prove to > upstream that downstream is worthy. It is tricky but well-known how > to avoid man-in-the-middle attacks. "Worthy" means: part of the > cartel enforcing non-leakage of signals. > > I have not looked at the youtube video. I assume that it requires Adobe > Flash, something I don't have on my desktop. Maybe the PS3 tries to negotiate HDCP, but is willing to do gameplay even if HDCP isn't available. For blueray playback it should refuse without HDCP, but for gameplay it doens't have to. That's my guess. I still doubt it is a solution in general. Just PS3 specific I think. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 22:18:21 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 17:18:21 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: <20120203200649.GA5051-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> <20120203200649.GA5051@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20120203221821.GU27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 03:06:49PM -0500, William Park wrote: > Or, with English keyboard for that matter. At stores yesterday, every > laptop that I saw had French keyboard. I'm wondering whether it's just > for display, or whether they are actually trying to sell French keyboard > in GTA. Many brands have decided that it is "cheaper" to ship one model to Canada, which means they ship it with canadian multilingual (which is NOT the old french canadian keyboard). Asus laptops at canada computers still for the most part have US keyboards. Thinkpads can be ordered with what you want. Ideapads come with multilingual keyboards only in Canada. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 23:14:18 2012 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 18:14:18 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to all for the replies. We picked up the HVR-1250 at Sonnam Computers on Spadina. Got it installed and the appropriate devices seem to be created in /dev/dvb/adapter0/ I'm not sure about the driver though, can't seem to get xine or Kaffeine scan to generate a channels list. Have to try again later. I'm liking Gnome 3 on Fedora though. The default desktop is quite neat, with it's switched sprite layers.(for lack of a better explanation) for the Desktop/Applications switching toggle. Is it possible to pin folders to the default desktop on startup? Even if I save a file to the Desktop folder, it doesn't display af folder link on start up. I have to use the file manager or a terminal to navigate to it. I like having a few active folders to work every time I start. Russell On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Russell Reiter wrote: >> I'm looking for advice on current digital tv tuners. I'd like to find >> a local shop, but I have a hard time sorting through the sites only to >> find they don't have much of what we are looking for. >> >> Just installed Fedora 16 for a friend and they want to try a digital tv tuner. >> >> I saw this one on Frontier Direct >> Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250 Hybrid Video Recorder >> >> Anyone experienced with this or similar cards they purchased locally. >> >> Looking to spend $100 or so. > > I've got an HVR-1250. Solid basic, single tuner PCI Express card. On > paper it can do analog and digital, but last time I checked the Linux > driver for analog wasn't up to stuff, so, this card should be seen as > a digital only card. Cost at Canada Computers $69.99 and at the time > this message was being written some of Canada Computers Toronto area > shops do show the card as being in stock : > http://canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=44_562&item_id=019081 > . > > Bottom line in all this, a good budget TV tuner card, very usable with > a TV antenna, and useless with Rogers cable (all Rogers digital > channels are encrypted (an encryption the HVR-1250 can't deal with), > and Rogers has announced plans to drop all analog service here in > Toronto). Depending on your antenna, location in the GTA, etc., this > card should get you about 20 different local over the air TV channels. > > The other digital card I bought locally was a Hauppauge HVR-1600 which > is a dual tuner card (one analog only tuner and one digital only > tuner). Depending on how you plan to deal with the end of Rogers > analog service, ?or if you want to be able to feed analog material in > from say an old TV camera this might be a better (or worse) choice > than the HVR-1250. With the HVR-1600 you can watch/record two programs > at the same time. Both the analog and digital sides of the HVR-1600 > are supported under Linux, and while I got my HVR-1600 as part of a > clearance sale, I see they are still available locally, for $109.99 : > http://canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=44_562&item_id=012995 > . > > Hope this helps. > > Colin > >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Russell >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cpchan-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 3 23:47:22 2012 From: cpchan-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org (Charles Philip Chan) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 18:47:22 -0500 Subject: Linux TV In-Reply-To: (Russell Reiter's message of "Fri, 3 Feb 2012 10:18:41 -0500") References: Message-ID: Russell Reiter writes: > I saw this one on Frontier Direct > Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250 Hybrid Video Recorder I wouldn't get this card because the analog side is not supported yet (support is forth coming). However, I recently purchases a WinTV-HVR-2250 to replace my ageing HVR-250. It is a duel tuner card that supports OTA ATSC (over the air digital), NTSC (analog through composite or SVideo input), Clear QAM (unencrypted cable) and a radio tuner. Capture is through hardware based MPEG2 encoders. Everything works out of the box in Linux providing you have kernel > 2.6.32 (haven't tried the radio yet). To capture, I simply dump the stream with mplayer, or I can use MythTV. However, it is a bit more expensive than your budget at $139.99 at Canada Computers. Whatever you buy, you should check http://linuxtv.org and http://www.mythtv.org/ to see if the card is supported. Charles -- "Problem solving under linux has never been the circus that it is under AIX." (By Pete Ehlke in comp.unix.aix) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 4 03:41:59 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:41:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: <20120203221821.GU27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> <20120203200649.GA5051@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120203221821.GU27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | Many brands have decided that it is "cheaper" to ship one model to Canada, | which means they ship it with canadian multilingual (which is NOT the | old french canadian keyboard). I always thought that too. But if is right, what they are shipping is "Canadian French", not "Canadian Multilingual Standard". I know because I'm always typing << instead of shift. I really don't know what to make of . This 2003 document seems inordinately aware of MSDOS 5 problems ("RAM cram". For most substantive content, it refers to CAN/CSA-Z243.200-91, something you have to buy for $79.00 for 36 pages of PDF This standard was published in 1992 and reaffirmed in 2011. I'd expect it to be obsoleted and replaced by now -- it might well be. For one thing, it supports Latin No. 1 which is obsolete (Francophones don't like Latin 1 since it misses out on the oe character (long funny story)) (it also predates the euro symbol). Latin 1 has been superceded by Latin 9. Except, I think, that the first 256 code points in UNICODE correspond to Latin 1. What a mess. (I'm still lamenting the swap of ctrl and caps lock keys by IBM. My Suns had it right and so did my Atari STs.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 4 04:57:06 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 23:57:06 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: <20120203221044.GA6369-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> <20120203200649.GA5051@node1.opengeometry.net> <4F2C43AD.6000400@rogers.com> <20120203221044.GA6369@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20120204045706.GA13095@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 05:10:45PM -0500, William Park wrote: > On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 03:29:33PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > William Park wrote: > > >On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 02:44:06PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > >>I don't think that Best Buy would ever sell a notebook with Linux > > >>preloaded. > > >Or, with English keyboard for that matter. At stores yesterday, every > > >laptop that I saw had French keyboard. I'm wondering whether it's just > > >for display, or whether they are actually trying to sell French keyboard > > >in GTA. > > > > French or multilingual? A friend bought a Dell a few months back. She > > returned it to get a ThinkPad with a "normal" English keyboard. The > > ThinkPad I bought in October also had the regular keyboard. > > It had bunch of non-ASCII symbols, and the key layout was either ^neither :-) > Keytronics or IBM. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 4 14:28:42 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 09:28:42 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <4F2AD724.2050007-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <4F2985B8.9060107@teksavvy.com> <20120202013805.GA18522@waltdnes.org> <4F2AD724.2050007@ss.org> Message-ID: Scott > > William, > > Thank you! I find it rather distasteful when people claim Fedora is just a > facade for Red Hat. It's a real disservice to claim the smaller overlap with > developers employed by Red Hat is the larger community as a whole. Sorry if I said anything hurtful. I though think you did misread me. If you read again what I had written, I did not mention anything about Fedora. All I said was RedHat happen to be the largest contributor of Linux kernel and last time I checked - Think it was an article from ottawa linux symposium -, that seemed to have been correct. > > It is true that Red Hat provides the Fedora Community with a lot of support > in the form of Infrastructure. But they see a benefit in supporting the > Fedora community because they can benefit from all the development work that > the community does. This is the same way we all benefit by the nature of > open-source. > Again agree with you here. I really have nothing against Fedora, and we share the same mindset here. > Scott Sullivan > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 4 21:05:50 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 16:05:50 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: <20120204045706.GA13095-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> <20120203200649.GA5051@node1.opengeometry.net> <4F2C43AD.6000400@rogers.com> <20120203221044.GA6369@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120204045706.GA13095@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F2D9DAE.4040003@rogers.com> William Park wrote: >>> > > French or multilingual? A friend bought a Dell a few months back. She >>> > > returned it to get a ThinkPad with a "normal" English keyboard. The >>> > > ThinkPad I bought in October also had the regular keyboard. >> > >> > It had bunch of non-ASCII symbols, and the key layout was either > ^neither:-) >> > Keytronics or IBM. I have seen some computers with either multi-lingual or bi-lingual keyboards. As I'm uni-lingual, I have no use for them. My friend speaks German and she didn't want one of those keyboards either. It makes no difference what make the keyboard is, as they have the same general layout. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 4 21:15:08 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 16:15:08 -0500 Subject: Commercial Surveillance, who is going to remain part of the problem? In-Reply-To: <4F0F7A03.6060909-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F0C5587.5000503@ss.org> <4F0F7A03.6060909@sobac.com> Message-ID: Giles, >> >> I don't see how information stored on Facebook, Twitter, or other >> social networks differs from having a public website or blog where you >> control your data. I think if we truly want to educate users we need >> to tell them that anything published on the Internet (even for example >> if it's a protected Twitter account or a Google+ message sent only to >> two other people) is public information and can be archive for an >> indefinite period of time and used by anyone for anything. > > > > People who store data on their own servers might understand that there is a > possibility of their data leaking out through holes in their security model. > > People who store data on (free) commercial services almost certainly don't, > never mind understanding about those services' deliberate attempts to > collect, correlate and commercialize their data. > > --Bob. > As other people have mentioned, you can't seriously compare the privacy implication related to facebook and a couple of pictures posted on a personal website. You most likely try to phrase it that way in order to feel better when using facebook. There is a couple of things you can do to break that myth. You may know people who have pictures on their personal servers, go to the search engine of your choice and try to search for picture, you will notice it will be really hard or impossible to find anything other than facebook stuff. And even if you can find them, you will not have a full picture of the victim life. Thats not the same with facebook. I have monkeyed a bit with my sister's facebook account and after a couple of minutes, I can reasonably guess her friends taste and lots of their other intimate details despite having never meet them. That in my opinion is sad. Try finding that information outside facebook and it will take you employing personal detective and paying for it. You will NOT be able to glean that information from personal server however much you try. Anyway, found this online and though it was well thought out: Facebook is not dangerous. There is no danger from posting all of the intimate details of your life, with pictures, and pictures of other people (often taken without their permission) using real names. Look, I am not a paranoid man. I am perfectly willing to give out private and personal information - for a reasonable fee. I give out private information to my bank all the time. In exchange, I get financial services. Facebook offers - a) a blog, b) email, c) games, d) convenient log in The first 3 are available for free elsewhere, the last is not worth much. I'm not paranoid, I'm just not cheap. And Facebook is asking way way too much for the minimal services it provides. William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 04:42:12 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 23:42:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:25:25 -0500 (EST) | | | I got this from slashdot | When I type "about:memory" into my firefox I get a lot of surprises. For example 36MB of ram is used by a compartment for www.facebook.com/;lugins/like... I don't even use facebook! Its caused by those nasty "like" buttons. I'd like a non-rude way to block this kind of junk. /etc/hosts entries seem rude. Google's plusone.google.com/_/+1/fastbu... is taking 19MB. And I don't use it either. I'd love an "about:time". As it is, I have tons of CPU being eaten by firefox and am too lazy to do a search through all my tabs to find the villain(s). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 06:20:10 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 01:20:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC Message-ID: This may well apply to us to. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 11:57:06 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 06:57:06 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <20120205115706.GA32329@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 02:31:37PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote > I can install Linux later but would rather not buy it with Windows as > that mean money spend on software that I do not need. Actually, a Windows-preloaded machine costs ***LESS***. MS sells "volume licences" to OEMs at great discounts. The OEMs, in turn charge Norton, Roxio, etal for the privilege of pre-loading their "craplets" (nagware demo versions) onto new machines. The OEMs make a profit on the "craplets", even after the Windows licence, which reduces the cost of the machine. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 12:31:40 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 07:31:40 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120205123140.GB32329@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Feb 04, 2012 at 11:42:12PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote > For example 36MB of ram is used by a compartment for > www.facebook.com/;lugins/like... > I don't even use facebook! Its caused by those nasty "like" buttons. > I'd like a non-rude way to block this kind of junk. /etc/hosts > entries seem rude. Hosts is not effective against a gazillion different domain names. Block FB with the following ranges with iptables... 66.220.144.0/20 66.220.144.0 - 66.220.159.255 69.63.176.0/20 69.63.176.0 - 69.63.191.255 69.171.224.0/19 69.171.224.0 - 69.171.255.255 74.119.76.0/22 74.119.76.0 - 74.119.79.255 173.252.64.0/18 173.252.64.0 - 173.252.127.255 204.15.20.0/22 204.15.20.0 - 204.15.23.255 Incoming should be sufficient, but since this is my "paranoia plus" ruleset, it blocks coming and going. Here are 3 fragments of the ruleset... -A INPUT -s 66.220.144.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 74.119.76.0/22 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 173.252.64.0/18 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 204.15.20.0/22 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 66.220.144.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 74.119.76.0/22 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 173.252.64.0/18 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 204.15.20.0/22 -j FECESBOOK -A FECESBOOK -j LOG --log-prefix "FECESBOOK:" --log-level 6 -A FECESBOOK -j DROP Be prepared to see a lot of panels in the webpages with ============================ Unable to connect Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at www.facebook.com. ============================ The webpages still seem to load just as fast, if not faster. For lots of laughter+stupidity, see http://www.lamebook.com/ (warning NSFW). All the fun of reading Facebook, without having them track you. I wouldn't be caught dead on FB. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 14:15:55 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 09:15:55 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> On 12-02-05 01:20 , D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > > This may well apply to us to. Bit of an outragefilter there: I think people should be outraged,? commented my fellow researcher McArthur. ?The public needs to know what?s going on...The concept that somebody?s going to record where I was, at a point in time, for no reason, with no probable cause, with no warrant, with no anything... It can recognize where your car is/was, at any point in time. Not you. Your car. And that's why we have licence plates - great big reflective legible things in strictly defined OCR-friendly typefaces - because we do not drive by right. I predict hilarity ensuing with that 95% accuracy thing, though. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 14:57:44 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 09:57:44 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <4F2E8F1B.9080003-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F2E98E8.80401@rogers.com> Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 12-02-05 01:20 , D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> >> >> This may well apply to us to. > Bit of an outragefilter there: > > I think people should be outraged,? commented my fellow researcher > McArthur. ?The public needs to know what?s going on...The concept that > somebody?s going to record where I was, at a point in time, for no > reason, with no probable cause, with no warrant, with no anything... > > It can recognize where your car is/was, at any point in time. Not you. > Your car. And that's why we have licence plates - great big reflective > legible things in strictly defined OCR-friendly typefaces - because we > do not drive by right. > > I predict hilarity ensuing with that 95% accuracy thing, though. The problem is that info can be used to track the driver of that car. In most cases, that will be the owner, but certainly could be others. However, that technology is already used on Hwy 407 and people who have never driven on it have been denied licence plate renewal because of errors. Also, many people carry a cell phone these days. How would you feel if the police monitored everywhere you went, by tracking your cell phone? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 15:03:38 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:03:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <4F2E8F1B.9080003-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Stewart C. Russell | It can recognize where your car is/was, at any point in time. Not you. | Your car. And that's why we have licence plates - great big reflective | legible things in strictly defined OCR-friendly typefaces - because we | do not drive by right. Privacy isn't binary. We (rightly!) don't expect massive quantities of what we do in public to be recorded, collated, and analyzed. Not to mention analyzed badly, as alleged in this lawsuit: Think about it: this system could easily be scaled to keep track of where most cars have been most of the time. Not just cars of Bad Guys. Not just "right now". Apparently without oversight. Heck, even the analysis of the implications seems to have been farmed out, done inaccurately, and as an afterthought. The Ontario Privacy Commissioner's "Privacy By Design" (almost a trade mark) is a really basic idea that has apparently been ignored in this system. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 15:14:02 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 10:14:02 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <4F2E98E8.80401-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> <4F2E98E8.80401@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F2E9CBA.5010307@gmail.com> On 12-02-05 09:57 , James Knott wrote: > > How would you > feel if the police monitored everywhere you went, by tracking your cell > phone? About the same as I do now, because it's been standard operational procedures for the last decade or more. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 15:15:20 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:15:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <4F2E98E8.80401-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> <4F2E98E8.80401@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | However, that | technology is already used on Hwy 407 and people who have never driven on it | have been denied licence plate renewal because of errors. My father died three years ago and is still getting new bills from ETR. (I think that the plate reader is correct but that their database of owners is wrong.) | Also, many people | carry a cell phone these days. How would you feel if the police monitored | everywhere you went, by tracking your cell phone? Maybe they are. In the US, cell phone tracking capability was mandated by legislation. The justification was that 911 calls were too often unlear about location and hence responses were impaired. Interestingly, they could have had the tracking start when a 911 call was made but the legislation requires it to be allways-on. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 15:44:20 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 10:44:20 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <4F2E9CBA.5010307-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> <4F2E98E8.80401@rogers.com> <4F2E9CBA.5010307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F2EA3D4.5000509@rogers.com> Stewart C. Russell wrote: > About the same as I do now, because it's been standard operational > procedures for the last decade or more. The police have been tracking you? The cell networks know approximately where your phone is, but I seem to recall the police didn't have access to that info without a court order. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 15:45:58 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 10:45:58 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> <4F2E98E8.80401@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F2EA436.3010802@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | Also, many people > | carry a cell phone these days. How would you feel if the police monitored > | everywhere you went, by tracking your cell phone? > > Maybe they are. > > In the US, cell phone tracking capability was mandated by legislation. > The justification was that 911 calls were too often unlear about > location and hence responses were impaired. Interestingly, they could > have had the tracking start when a 911 call was made but the > legislation requires it to be allways-on. There's a big difference between using that for the purposes of a 911 call and collecting the info "just in case". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 18:17:46 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 13:17:46 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <4F2E98E8.80401-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> <4F2E98E8.80401@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 9:57 AM, James Knott wrote: >?However, > that technology is already used on Hwy 407 and people who have never driven > on it have been denied licence plate renewal because of errors. A friend got hit with a ~$1500 bill for charges + penalties when she hadn't used the road in years... There seems to be a lot of convenient errors made, relating to 407... > Also, many > people carry a cell phone these days. ?How would you feel if the police > monitored everywhere you went, by tracking your cell phone? If you have watched the coverage on the murder trial in Kingston where the four women allegedly either were drowned or "worst driver ever" (combined with something like the "worst failure to report ever"), the locations of various peoples' phones were indeed tracked, by the telcos, and the police acquired those logs to determine where those phones were during the suspicious periods of time. If they need to get warrants supported by some reasonble-ish notion of "reasonable suspicion" to get that data, that doesn't seem too objectionable. If they just automatically collect it all into Police Data Banks, well, that's a different kettle of fish... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 20:32:39 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 15:32:39 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2EE767.8020503@dinamis.com> On 02/04/2012 11:42 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > When I type "about:memory" into my firefox I get a lot of surprises. > For example 36MB of ram is used by a compartment for > www.facebook.com/;lugins/like... > I don't even use facebook! Its caused by those nasty "like" buttons. > I'd like a non-rude way to block this kind of junk. /etc/hosts > entries seem rude. > > Google's plusone.google.com/_/+1/fastbu... is taking 19MB. And I > don't use it either. The Ghostery add-on will disable all manner of things, not just +1 and FB. It's quite instructive to see what it's blocking, or not. You control what it blocks and what it doesn't. Since I started using it, Firefox feels snappy again. > I'd love an "about:time". As it is, I have tons of CPU being eaten by > firefox and am too lazy to do a search through all my tabs to find the > villain(s). The TooManyTabs add-on has brought memory and CPU consumption under control for me. I now have a bunch of named tab sets that are set aside for future use and Firefox doesn't take minutes to be ready to use after a restart as it did before I started using this. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 21:47:03 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 16:47:03 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <4F2E9CBA.5010307-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> <4F2E98E8.80401@rogers.com> <4F2E9CBA.5010307@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 12-02-05 09:57 , James Knott wrote: >> >> How would you >> feel if the police monitored everywhere you went, by tracking your cell >> phone? > > About the same as I do now, because it's been standard operational > procedures for the last decade or more. > EXCELLENT. I wanted to click 'like' :-\ -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 21:51:45 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 16:51:45 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <4F2E8F1B.9080003-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 12-02-05 01:20 , D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> >> >> This may well apply to us to. > > Bit of an outragefilter there: > > ?I think people should be outraged,? commented my fellow researcher > ?McArthur. ?The public needs to know what?s going on...The concept that > ?somebody?s going to record where I was, at a point in time, for no > ?reason, with no probable cause, with no warrant, with no anything... > > It can recognize where your car is/was, at any point in time. Not you. > Your car. And that's why we have licence plates - great big reflective > legible things in strictly defined OCR-friendly typefaces - because we > do not drive by right. If anything, people should have a lot less privacy when driving their car. Perhaps it would shame them into driving with more courtesy and respect for others. As it is, not nearly enough people take the time to report dangerous drivers to police. I guess that would be a full time job, at least at first :) > I predict hilarity ensuing with that 95% accuracy thing, though. > > ?Stewart -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 21:57:32 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 16:57:32 -0500 Subject: Too many licences (was Have you ever edited OpenStreetMap ?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2EFB4C.1050102@ve3syb.ca> On 12-02-02 02:45 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > OSM data is CC-By-SA[1], and transitioning to ODbL[2]. ODbL? Yet another ffffine licence? Isn't it enough that we have GPL v2, GPL v3, BSD, MIT, multiple CC licences (to name some more common ones), and now ODbL? It's getting to where you have to be (or need to hire) a lawyer just to work on Open Source projects these days. I don't know about any one else but my eyes quickly glaze over while trying to read all the legalese and understand what it means to me as a developer. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 22:00:59 2012 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 17:00:59 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120205220059.GJ18685@adb.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > > This may well apply to us to. Back in 2008 I saw a marked Toronto Police car with video cameras at both front corners of the hood going up and down rows of a parking lot out at YYZ: your concern may be slightly belated. Although I don't know for a fact that they were hooked to an ALPR system, I've worked in computer vision and it's my professional opinion that they would or at least should have been. But fascinating though this or any other technology may be, I believe the key areas of importance are police ethics and the state of the relationship between police, the rest of us, and our politicians. So long as they use whatever they have to help and protect us, not hinder and oppress, I'd be happy. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 22:14:11 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:14:11 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F2EFF33.1070308@dinamis.com> On 02/05/2012 10:03 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Not to mention analyzed badly, as alleged in this lawsuit: > "According to his lawsuit, he was arrested without warning by police three days later and detained for over a day while his house was searched." "Arrested without warning" you say? Is it common practice for the police give warning before they arrest someone? That would seem to eliminate the element of surprise and give the accused a chance to flee if they did. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 22:33:26 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:33:26 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <20120205220059.GJ18685-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20120205220059.GJ18685@adb.ca> Message-ID: <4F2F03B6.8000501@the-wire.com> On 02/05/2012 05:00 PM, Anthony de Boer wrote: > [ ... ] > But fascinating though this or any other technology may be, I believe > the key areas of importance are police ethics and the state of the > relationship between police, the rest of us, and our politicians. So > long as they use whatever they have to help and protect us, not hinder > and oppress, I'd be happy. FWIW I'm going one more time through the series of Martin Beck police novels by Maj Sj?vall and Per Wahl?? (paperback, translated from Swedish). Very concerned with such issues, and very good reading. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 6 02:13:31 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 21:13:31 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2F374B.4010807@dinamis.com> On 02/04/2012 11:42 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > When I type "about:memory" into my firefox I get a lot of surprises. > For example 36MB of ram is used by a compartment for > www.facebook.com/;lugins/like... > I don't even use facebook! Its caused by those nasty "like" buttons. > I'd like a non-rude way to block this kind of junk. /etc/hosts > entries seem rude. > > Google's plusone.google.com/_/+1/fastbu... is taking 19MB. And I > don't use it either. This page is a perfect example of a page that is just infested with "bugs" that track your online behaviour. The content of the page isn't important for the sake of this discussion. There are 18(!) trackers on that page, many of which you've probably never heard of. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 6 13:03:40 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 08:03:40 -0500 Subject: Too many licences (was Have you ever edited OpenStreetMap ?) In-Reply-To: <4F2EFB4C.1050102-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2EFB4C.1050102@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <4F2FCFAC.6060609@gmail.com> On 12-02-05 16:57 , Kevin Cozens wrote: > > ODbL? Yet another ffffine licence? Isn't it enough that we have GPL v2, > GPL v3, BSD, MIT, multiple CC licences (to name some more common ones), > and now ODbL? In many countries, data - as in externally-verifiable facts - cannot be copyrighted. Although CC claim that CC 3.0 and the planned 4.0 are applicable, ODbL made more sense. It's not a decision taken lightly; it involves data loss and other upheavals. Richard's note was I think meant to advise any users from this list that, if they took no action, their contributions might disappear. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 6 14:27:52 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:27:52 -0500 Subject: good deal on Linux notebook (today only) In-Reply-To: References: <350723929234305438@unknownmsgid> <20120203200649.GA5051@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120203221821.GU27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120206142752.GV27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 10:41:59PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I always thought that too. But if > > is right, what they are shipping is "Canadian French", not "Canadian > Multilingual Standard". I know because I'm always typing << instead > of shift. Hmm, I see what you mean. I was pretty sure it was the multilingual they were shipping, but apparently that isn't always the case. That makes even less sense then. > I really don't know what to make of > . > This 2003 document seems inordinately aware of MSDOS 5 problems ("RAM > cram". For most substantive content, it refers to > CAN/CSA-Z243.200-91, something you have to buy for $79.00 for 36 pages > of PDF > > > This standard was published in 1992 and reaffirmed in 2011. I'd > expect it to be obsoleted and replaced by now -- it might well be. > For one thing, it supports Latin No. 1 which is obsolete (Francophones > don't like Latin 1 since it misses out on the oe character (long funny > story)) (it also predates the euro symbol). Latin 1 has been > superceded by Latin 9. Except, I think, that the first 256 code > points in UNICODE correspond to Latin 1. > > What a mess. > > (I'm still lamenting the swap of ctrl and caps lock keys by IBM. My > Suns had it right and so did my Atari STs.) Although they were wrong compared to the majority of type writers as far as I can tell. I personally like control at the bottom. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 17:46:51 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 12:46:51 -0500 Subject: wow: Automatic Licence Plate Recognition surveillance in BC In-Reply-To: <4F2E8F1B.9080003-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2E8F1B.9080003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120205174650.GB2311@node1.opengeometry.net> Personally, I think there should be cameras everywhere and in HD too, not those fuzzy useless store cameras. -- William On Sun, Feb 05, 2012 at 09:15:55AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 12-02-05 01:20 , D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > > > > > This may well apply to us to. > > Bit of an outragefilter there: > > I think people should be outraged,? commented my fellow researcher > McArthur. ?The public needs to know what?s going on...The concept that > somebody?s going to record where I was, at a point in time, for no > reason, with no probable cause, with no warrant, with no anything... > > It can recognize where your car is/was, at any point in time. Not you. > Your car. And that's why we have licence plates - great big reflective > legible things in strictly defined OCR-friendly typefaces - because we > do not drive by right. > > I predict hilarity ensuing with that 95% accuracy thing, though. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 5 17:33:59 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 12:33:59 -0500 Subject: nice paper on FireFox memory usage reduction In-Reply-To: <20120205123140.GB32329-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120205123140.GB32329@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20120205173359.GA2311@node1.opengeometry.net> Yeah. Until recently, I've been using local DNS server to map undesirable domains to 127.0.0.1. It was too much hassle to keep on adding names and their infinite permutations. Now, I just put up with it (Ctrl-W in Firefox), or click "Block Images from ..." (Page Info | Media) if it's too much. -- William On Sun, Feb 05, 2012 at 07:31:40AM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Sat, Feb 04, 2012 at 11:42:12PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote > > > For example 36MB of ram is used by a compartment for > > www.facebook.com/;lugins/like... > > I don't even use facebook! Its caused by those nasty "like" buttons. > > I'd like a non-rude way to block this kind of junk. /etc/hosts > > entries seem rude. > > Hosts is not effective against a gazillion different domain names. > Block FB with the following ranges with iptables... > > 66.220.144.0/20 66.220.144.0 - 66.220.159.255 > 69.63.176.0/20 69.63.176.0 - 69.63.191.255 > 69.171.224.0/19 69.171.224.0 - 69.171.255.255 > 74.119.76.0/22 74.119.76.0 - 74.119.79.255 > 173.252.64.0/18 173.252.64.0 - 173.252.127.255 > 204.15.20.0/22 204.15.20.0 - 204.15.23.255 > > Incoming should be sufficient, but since this is my "paranoia plus" > ruleset, it blocks coming and going. Here are 3 fragments of the > ruleset... > > -A INPUT -s 66.220.144.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 74.119.76.0/22 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 173.252.64.0/18 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 204.15.20.0/22 -j FECESBOOK > > -A OUTPUT -s 66.220.144.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 74.119.76.0/22 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 173.252.64.0/18 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 204.15.20.0/22 -j FECESBOOK > > -A FECESBOOK -j LOG --log-prefix "FECESBOOK:" --log-level 6 > -A FECESBOOK -j DROP > > Be prepared to see a lot of panels in the webpages with > > ============================ > Unable to connect > Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at www.facebook.com. > ============================ > > The webpages still seem to load just as fast, if not faster. For lots > of laughter+stupidity, see http://www.lamebook.com/ (warning NSFW). All > the fun of reading Facebook, without having them track you. I wouldn't > be caught dead on FB. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 6 18:28:44 2012 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:28:44 -0500 Subject: Linux TV - what software do you use to watch tv Message-ID: We got mplayer working on dvb:// and a channels list with w_scan. I did add CBC to the list by hand. If anyone has a GTA channels.conf they could share, I'd appreciate it Some things I'm working on before trying to tackle VLC or myth. Gmplayer crashes the video window, xine can't find the device, Kaffeine finds the channels but won't display the picture and me-tv will record sound and audio beautifully but it also won't display the real time video. Any suggestions on why mplayer seems to drive normally and nothing else does would be helpful . I do have to invoke mplayer this way mplayer dvb:// -ao sdl -autosync 30 to deal with syncing the audtio and there is quite a lag time in changing channel. Thanks Russell -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 6 22:45:53 2012 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 17:45:53 -0500 Subject: Too many licences (was Have you ever edited OpenStreetMap ?) In-Reply-To: <4F2EFB4C.1050102-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4F2EFB4C.1050102@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 12-02-02 02:45 PM, Richard Weait wrote: >> >> OSM data is CC-By-SA[1], and transitioning to ODbL[2]. > > > ODbL? Yet another ffffine licence? Isn't it enough that we have GPL v2, GPL > v3, BSD, MIT, multiple CC licences (to name some more common ones), and now > ODbL? > > It's getting to where you have to be (or need to hire) a lawyer just to work > on Open Source projects these days. I don't know about any one else but my > eyes quickly glaze over while trying to read all the legalese and understand > what it means to me as a developer. Yup. The code in OSM is still under sensible and familiar code licenses. OSM is a F/LOSS project. OSM is also an Open Data project. And OSM, by its success, has changed the the global Open Data landscape. Countries, and smaller jurisdictions are adapting to this relatively young area of law. They are even gaining more clue as time goes on. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 00:08:37 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:08:37 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120201182109.GO27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 08:19:28AM -0500, James Knott wrote: >> I found this recently on Groklaw: >> http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html > > Well it is quite wrong. > > Linux didn't start using initrd/initramfs until much later in life, > and even then, they are optional, so they certainly do not mean that > the seperation of what is needed to mount filesystems from the normal > operation of the system is obsolete. > > So in all it is still a useful split. ?Is /usr a good name for it? > Probably not. ?No idea what a good name would be. The fact that initrd wasn't there in the beginning doesn't prevent it from indicating something that's effectively true today. Yes, initrd is there to satisfy much the same things that /sbin used to be for. To a considerable extent, the split of /bin vs /usr/bin vs /sbin vs /usr/bin vs whatever else often doesn't matter anymore. After all, if all you use $PATH for is to type in one of (firefox|libreoffice|xterm), or hide such behind a menu system, the notion of even having $PATH is somewhat obsolete. (Of course, that may be contrasted with needing to add /usr/bin/mh to your PATH ;-)!) I wonder if we could use something cleverer, to include programs of interest and exclude uninteresting ones; Hurd was going to try to go somewhere like that, by having something a bit like a union mount so that it anticipated you ought only need a /bin directory that would combine all the programs that your user would have access to. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 00:43:19 2012 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:43:19 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 08:19:28AM -0500, James Knott wrote: >>> I found this recently on Groklaw: >>> http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html >> >> Well it is quite wrong. >> >> Linux didn't start using initrd/initramfs until much later in life, >> and even then, they are optional, so they certainly do not mean that >> the seperation of what is needed to mount filesystems from the normal >> operation of the system is obsolete. >> >> So in all it is still a useful split. ?Is /usr a good name for it? >> Probably not. ?No idea what a good name would be. > > The fact that initrd wasn't there in the beginning doesn't prevent it > from indicating something that's effectively true today. ?Yes, initrd > is there to satisfy much the same things that /sbin used to be for. > > To a considerable extent, the split of /bin vs /usr/bin vs /sbin vs > /usr/bin vs whatever else often doesn't matter anymore. > > After all, if all you use $PATH for is to type in one of > (firefox|libreoffice|xterm), or hide such behind a menu system, the > notion of even having $PATH is somewhat obsolete. I thought some things are not included in a normal users path by default whereas root gets everything ? Dave Cramer VP Software Development Visible Assets Inc. www.visibleassets.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 02:43:09 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 21:43:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | I wonder if we could use something cleverer, to include programs of | interest and exclude uninteresting ones; Hurd was going to try to go | somewhere like that, by having something a bit like a union mount so | that it anticipated you ought only need a /bin directory that would | combine all the programs that your user would have access to. That's what Plan 9 does and I assume that Hurd is copying it. (Plan 9 used to be the future.) ========== I've heard that OS/X does something like: all a package does is add a directory, and populates it with all the "stuff", including any executables. The package manager does not have to be intricate, policing shared directories. Then the binary gets made accessible somehow. Symlink? Union mount? I would even give each package a unique UID and make sure that the package manager (almost) only did things that that user would be allowed to do. Of course this would make it harder for packages to share things. In any Linux system with packages, the package manager is a big fat security hole. This scheme would reduce the attack surface. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 05:21:35 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:21:35 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 09:43:09PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I've heard that OS/X does something like: all a package does is add a > directory, and populates it with all the "stuff", including any > executables. The package manager does not have to be intricate, > policing shared directories. Then the binary gets made accessible > somehow. Symlink? Union mount? This would be a step in the right direction. Each package should be given a directory, and it can do whatever under it. This would simplify package management a LOT. There is no need to share anything. If you want something, you know exactly where it is. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 12:54:34 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 07:54:34 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F311F0A.4090505@gmail.com> On 12-02-06 21:43 , D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > I've heard that OS/X does something like: all a package does is add a > directory, and populates it with all the "stuff", including any > executables. The package manager does not have to be intricate, policing > shared directories. The "package manager" in most cases is called "dragging the app to the /Applications folder". Deleting is similarly simple. > Then the binary gets made accessible somehow. > Symlink? Union mount? Extended attributes on the Program.app/ directory, then a defined structure of what lives where under that directory. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 15:16:13 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 10:16:13 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120207052134.GA2403-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 12:21:35AM -0500, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 09:43:09PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > I've heard that OS/X does something like: all a package does is add a > > directory, and populates it with all the "stuff", including any > > executables. The package manager does not have to be intricate, > > policing shared directories. Then the binary gets made accessible > > somehow. Symlink? Union mount? > > This would be a step in the right direction. Each package should be > given a directory, and it can do whatever under it. This would simplify > package management a LOT. There is no need to share anything. If you > want something, you know exactly where it is. Because obviously packages never include libraries that one would want to share and the linker need to know where is. In other words: What an awful idea. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 15:19:31 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 10:19:31 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120207151931.GX27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 07:08:37PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > The fact that initrd wasn't there in the beginning doesn't prevent it > from indicating something that's effectively true today. Yes, initrd > is there to satisfy much the same things that /sbin used to be for. It is only effectively true for some types of systems. It is not true for all systems and probably never will be. > To a considerable extent, the split of /bin vs /usr/bin vs /sbin vs > /usr/bin vs whatever else often doesn't matter anymore. But when it does matter it really sucks if someone has decided to make it hard to keep. > After all, if all you use $PATH for is to type in one of > (firefox|libreoffice|xterm), or hide such behind a menu system, the > notion of even having $PATH is somewhat obsolete. That's a pretty good use of PATH. Also allows me having $HOME/bin in the path which is unique to my user, and add other places if I have a reason to (like those awful commercial aplications that think /opt/applicationname/bin is a good idea). > (Of course, that may be contrasted with needing to add /usr/bin/mh to > your PATH ;-)!) > > I wonder if we could use something cleverer, to include programs of > interest and exclude uninteresting ones; Hurd was going to try to go > somewhere like that, by having something a bit like a union mount so > that it anticipated you ought only need a /bin directory that would > combine all the programs that your user would have access to. Interesting to who? If it wasn't interesting, why is it installed? Sounds like a solution looking for a problem to solve. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 15:20:13 2012 From: stephen.a.gordon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stephen Gordon) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 10:20:13 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120207151613.GW27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 12:21:35AM -0500, William Park wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 09:43:09PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> > I've heard that OS/X does something like: all a package does is add a >> > directory, and populates it with all the "stuff", including any >> > executables. ?The package manager does not have to be intricate, >> > policing shared directories. ?Then the binary gets made accessible >> > somehow. ?Symlink? ?Union mount? >> >> This would be a step in the right direction. ?Each package should be >> given a directory, and it can do whatever under it. ?This would simplify >> package management a LOT. ?There is no need to share anything. ?If you >> want something, you know exactly where it is. > > Because obviously packages never include libraries that one would want > to share and the linker need to know where is. > > In other words: What an awful idea. Indeed, maybe we could call it C:\Program Files. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 16:14:06 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:14:06 -0500 Subject: tar as a file system backup Message-ID: Morning pals I am planning to repurpose a server and I am kind of hesitant of reformatting it as I am not very certain if I got everything backup. How safe is it to assume this command has compressed and archived everything on the old system? tar -zcvpf /backup/servername-`date '+%d-%B-%Y'`.tar.gz / --exclude=/backup --exclude=proc Just may feel a little more confident if I get a second eye saying all seem fine as long as tar exit with 0 flag William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 16:18:12 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:18:12 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120207151613.GW27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 12:21:35AM -0500, William Park wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 09:43:09PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> > I've heard that OS/X does something like: all a package does is add a >> > directory, and populates it with all the "stuff", including any >> > executables. ?The package manager does not have to be intricate, >> > policing shared directories. ?Then the binary gets made accessible >> > somehow. ?Symlink? ?Union mount? >> >> This would be a step in the right direction. ?Each package should be >> given a directory, and it can do whatever under it. ?This would simplify >> package management a LOT. ?There is no need to share anything. ?If you >> want something, you know exactly where it is. > > Because obviously packages never include libraries that one would want > to share and the linker need to know where is. > > In other words: What an awful idea. It's a solution to certain, particularly simplistic, problems. Those problems are fairly frequently occurring, notably with non-Unix-like application monoliths such as office suits and web browsers. Indeed, those classes of applications tend to be sufficiently grandly bloated that I have the suspicion that it might be reasonable to statically link in the bloated library sets that they require. It's not obvious that this would worsen space consumption or anything else too terribly materially, as they're already exceeding grandiose. Embrace the "non-Unix-itude", I say... Notice that if this set of (cr)applications got spun off in this fashion, it would make the attendant bloat that much more visible to everyone, and not have packagers holding their noses, trying to force these apps into the other procrustean beds. There wouldn't need to be a "Firefox for Ubuntu" and "Firefox for Debian" and "Firefox for Red Hat" anymore :-). -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 16:24:28 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:24:28 -0500 Subject: tar as a file system backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120207162428.GY27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 11:14:06AM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > Morning pals > > I am planning to repurpose a server and I am kind of hesitant of > reformatting it as I am not very certain if I got everything backup. > > How safe is it to assume this command has compressed and archived > everything on the old system? > > tar -zcvpf /backup/servername-`date '+%d-%B-%Y'`.tar.gz / > --exclude=/backup --exclude=proc > > Just may feel a little more confident if I get a second eye saying all > seem fine as long as tar exit with 0 flag If you want to be really sure, dump the disk to a file, so you can go and loopback mount it later if you need anything. Can't get anymore complete than that. Besides wouldn't you have to exclude /sys, /dev/pts, and lots of other virtual filesystems? /proc isn't the only one. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 16:26:39 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:26:39 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120207162639.GZ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 11:18:12AM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > It's a solution to certain, particularly simplistic, problems. > > Those problems are fairly frequently occurring, notably with > non-Unix-like application monoliths such as office suits and web > browsers. Indeed, those classes of applications tend to be > sufficiently grandly bloated that I have the suspicion that it might > be reasonable to statically link in the bloated library sets that they > require. It's not obvious that this would worsen space consumption or > anything else too terribly materially, as they're already exceeding > grandiose. > > Embrace the "non-Unix-itude", I say... So if a libssl bug is found and you update libssl to fix it, firefox is still broken. That's a great idea. > Notice that if this set of (cr)applications got spun off in this > fashion, it would make the attendant bloat that much more visible to > everyone, and not have packagers holding their noses, trying to force > these apps into the other procrustean beds. There wouldn't need to be > a "Firefox for Ubuntu" and "Firefox for Debian" and "Firefox for Red > Hat" anymore :-). Well fortunately I have iceweasel from Debian already, so I don't need firefox'x own crazy idea of how to distribute software. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 16:26:39 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:26:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: tar as a file system backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1328631999.70743.YahooMailNeo@web113416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> You might want to exclude /dev, /sys, /mnt/, ... :-) -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Muriithi > To: TLUG mailing list > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 11:14:06 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: tar as a file system backup > > Morning pals > > I am planning to repurpose a server and I am kind of hesitant of > reformatting it as I am not very certain if I got everything backup. > > How? safe is it to assume this command has compressed and archived > everything on the old system? > > tar -zcvpf /backup/servername-`date '+%d-%B-%Y'`.tar.gz? / > --exclude=/backup --exclude=proc > > Just may feel a little more confident if I get a second eye saying all > seem fine as long as tar exit with 0 flag > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 16:21:44 2012 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:21:44 -0500 Subject: new Cygwin release Message-ID: <201202071121.45898.icanprogram@295.ca> We have been waiting patiently in the wings to port our open source SIMPL project code (http://www.icanprogram.com/simpl) to the Cygwin environment. SIMPL already interoperates on Linux, QNX, UNIX and Mac environments. Fortunately it looks like the show stopper problem associated with fifos in the previous version of Cygwin has been addressed in this new version. I'm looking for volunteers with access to a Windows box to help with this code port including the production of a Cygwin-SIMPL package. While I don't have access to a Windows box myself (Linux + Mac shop), I'm willing to help with code snips, analysis and online Linode access for testing as required. Please feel free to contact me offlist if you are interested in helping out. Thanks. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 16:42:04 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:42:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120207151613.GW27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1328632924.36119.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > From: Lennart Sorensen > On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 12:21:35AM -0500, William Park wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 09:43:09PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> > I've heard that OS/X does something like: all a package does is >> > add a directory, and populates it with all the "stuff", including >> > any executables.? The package manager does not have to be intricate, >> > policing shared directories.? Then the binary gets made accessible >> > somehow.? Symlink?? Union mount? >> >> This would be a step in the right direction.? Each package should be >> given a directory, and it can do whatever under it.? This would simplify >> package management a LOT.? There is no need to share anything.? If you >> want something, you know exactly where it is. > > Because obviously packages never include libraries that one would want > to share and the linker need to know where is. > > In other words: What an awful idea. Most of libs are already symlinks, and it's so complicated now that you have to use /etc/ld.so.conf and /sbin/ldconfig.? If you're building list for libXXX.so, then you can do that for executables as well, say /etc/bin.conf and /sbin/binconfig. If you want something from GNU C library, you know it will be under /usr/glibc.? If you want something from Firefox, then you know it will be under /usr/firefox.? This pissing contest about package management is just waste of time and resources. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 17:02:25 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:02:25 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <1328632924.36119.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOFeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1328632924.36119.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120207170225.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 08:42:04AM -0800, William Park wrote: > Most of libs are already symlinks, and it's so complicated now that > you have to use /etc/ld.so.conf and /sbin/ldconfig.? If you're building > list for libXXX.so, then you can do that for executables as well, say > /etc/bin.conf and /sbin/binconfig. It's pretty darn simple on any system I have ever used. Libraries are in /usr/lib for the most part. Any symlinks are purely for the basename to the specific version (to allow multiple versions to be installed at once). > If you want something from GNU C library, you know it will be under > /usr/glibc.? If you want something from Firefox, then you know it > will be under /usr/firefox.? This pissing contest about package > management is just waste of time and resources. But it means I have to tell the link where EVERYTHING is. What a mess. Why do I care what the packagename is that provided libpthread. Could be glibc, eglibc, uclibc, who knows. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 18:11:43 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 10:11:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120207170225.GA27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1328632924.36119.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120207170225.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1328638303.56834.YahooMailNeo@web113415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >> If you want something from GNU C library, you know it will be under >> /usr/glibc.? If you want something from Firefox, then you know it >> will be under /usr/firefox.? This pissing contest about package >> management is just waste of time and resources. > > But it means I have to tell the link where EVERYTHING is.? What a mess. > Why do I care what the packagename is that provided libpthread.? Could > be glibc, eglibc, uclibc, who knows. Hmm... don't you have to know where the library is coming from? I mean, libc.so from GNU C and libc.so from busybox are awefully different. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 19:21:32 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 14:21:32 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <1328638303.56834.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOF+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1328632924.36119.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120207170225.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1328638303.56834.YahooMailNeo@web113415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120207192132.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 10:11:43AM -0800, William Park wrote: > Hmm... don't you have to know where the library is coming from? > I mean, libc.so from GNU C and libc.so from busybox are awefully > different. No you don't. When compiling you really just need: cc -o putput input.c -lpthread Doesn't matter which libc as long as the compiler was originally configured for a given target. My makefile certainly doesn't care if it is glibc, eglibc or uclibc or even klibc. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 19:40:50 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 14:40:50 -0500 Subject: tar as a file system backup In-Reply-To: <1328631999.70743.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEHBU+L9ui1Svu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1328631999.70743.YahooMailNeo@web113416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks guys On 7 February 2012 11:26, William Park wrote: > You might want to exclude /dev, /sys, /mnt/, ... :-) > -- > > William > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: William Muriithi >> To: TLUG mailing list >> Cc: >> Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 11:14:06 AM >> Subject: [TLUG]: tar as a file system backup >> >> Morning pals >> >> I am planning to repurpose a server and I am kind of hesitant of >> reformatting it as I am not very certain if I got everything backup. >> >> How? safe is it to assume this command has compressed and archived >> everything on the old system? >> >> tar -zcvpf /backup/servername-`date '+%d-%B-%Y'`.tar.gz? / >> --exclude=/backup --exclude=proc >> >> Just may feel a little more confident if I get a second eye saying all >> seem fine as long as tar exit with 0 flag >> >> William >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 19:56:06 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:56:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <20120207192132.GB27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F293BE0.8020507@rogers.com> <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1328632924.36119.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120207170225.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1328638303.56834.YahooMailNeo@web113415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120207192132.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1328644566.46634.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I think we're speaking past each other.? Historical convention has accumulated a lot of baggage.? What you're typing only makes sense in the ecosystem it's intended to be used.? If you're supposed to care which library you're supposed to link with, then what you typed is inadequate and vague. Also, you're making selective argument.? For example, 'named' is DNS server, and 'bind' is its package name.? Another, 'httpd' is web server, and 'apache' is the package name.? In these and other cases, you have to know their names and where they are coming from. I'm merely saying that, if we had to care from the beginning, then a lot of headache could be avoided. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lennart Sorensen > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 2:21:32 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split > > On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 10:11:43AM -0800, William Park wrote: >> Hmm... don't you have to know where the library is coming from? >> I mean, libc.so from GNU C and libc.so from busybox are awefully >> different. > > No you don't.? When compiling you really just need: > > cc -o putput input.c -lpthread > > Doesn't matter which libc as long as the compiler was originally > configured for a given target.? My makefile certainly doesn't care if > it is glibc, eglibc or uclibc or even klibc. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 20:02:31 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:02:31 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: <1328644566.46634.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOFeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <20120201182109.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120207052134.GA2403@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120207151613.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1328632924.36119.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120207170225.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1328638303.56834.YahooMailNeo@web113415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120207192132.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1328644566.46634.YahooMailNeo@web113417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120207200231.GC27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 11:56:06AM -0800, William Park wrote: > I think we're speaking past each other.? Historical convention has > accumulated a lot of baggage.? What you're typing only makes sense > in the ecosystem it's intended to be used.? If you're supposed to > care which library you're supposed to link with, then what you typed > is inadequate and vague. But you are not supposed to care. If you start splitting things into seperate directories, suddenly you do have to care. Seperate directories try to solve the problem of how to keep track of a package to make removal or upgrades simpler. Well that's already solved just fine with a decent package manager. Getting all commands into a path that you can actually find things to run them, and getting libraries into a searchable list for the linker/compiler/runtime to find things is an issue that isn't trivial to solve if you split things all over. Hence the current system nicely deals with the real issues, while package managers nicely deal with the simple issue (the one /opt, and c:\program files try to solve stupidly, by instead making you have to solve the much messier and harder problem). > Also, you're making selective argument.? For example, 'named' is > DNS server, and 'bind' is its package name.? Another, 'httpd' is > web server, and 'apache' is the package name.? In these and other > cases, you have to know their names and where they are coming from. > I'm merely saying that, if we had to care from the beginning, then > a lot of headache could be avoided. Fortunately the init scripts to handle them match the name of the package. And in the case of debian at least, the apache process is /usr/sbin/apache2, not httpd. bind is still named named (Hmm, that looks confusing, but correct). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 20:07:39 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:07:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spontaneous hard shutdown -- cause? Message-ID: <1328645259.83635.YahooMailNeo@web113409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi All, For few days now, I'm having spontaneous shutdown.? Not a reboot, but just sudden power down with no log to tell what happened. No problem with hydro.? Just before the shutdown, I hear some relay being triggered in the power supply.? It's the same sound you'd normally hear in the normal shutdown. So, I'm thinking bad motherboard.? Has anyone encountered this kind of symptom before? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 20:31:59 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:31:59 -0500 Subject: Spontaneous hard shutdown -- cause? In-Reply-To: <1328645259.83635.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3M5A34FEqDeB/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1328645259.83635.YahooMailNeo@web113409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120207203159.GD27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 12:07:39PM -0800, William Park wrote: > For few days now, I'm having spontaneous shutdown.? Not a reboot, > but just sudden power down with no log to tell what happened. > No problem with hydro.? Just before the shutdown, I hear some > relay being triggered in the power supply.? It's the same sound > you'd normally hear in the normal shutdown. > > So, I'm thinking bad motherboard.? Has anyone encountered this > kind of symptom before? Overheating? Fan failure? Could be bad power supply or bad motherboard. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 20:38:25 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:38:25 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) - Len's voltage logs. In-Reply-To: References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20120207203825.GE27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 05:29:47PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > The distribution voltages that IESO deals in are likely in the > hundreds of kiloVolts range ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_grid_simple-_North_America.svg > ). The amount of "smart" electrical equipment between your wall > socket and IESO's point of origin would suggest that the chance of us > seeing a voltage change would be about nil. If you work at a company > that has its own substation (Google, Amazon ...), you might notice. So if anyone is curious, here is what my UPS saw today: /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 08:50:26 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 08:51:27 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 08:52:34 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 08:53:35 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 08:54:36 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 08:55:43 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 08:56:45 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 08:57:50 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 08:58:53 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:00:02 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:01:06 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 119.5 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:02:06 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:03:10 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:04:10 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:05:18 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:06:22 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:07:27 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 119.5 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:08:40 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:10:07 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 119.5 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:11:42 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 119.5 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:12:43 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 119.5 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:13:45 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 119.5 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:14:46 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 119.5 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:15:47 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 119.5 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:16:48 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:17:56 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:18:57 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 119.5 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:19:58 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:21:05 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:22:34 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:24:15 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:25:16 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:26:17 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:27:25 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:28:26 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:29:27 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:30:37 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:31:38 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:32:39 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:33:46 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:34:47 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:35:48 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:36:57 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:37:58 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:39:00 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:40:15 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:41:32 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.0 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:42:35 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:43:34 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:44:51 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:46:28 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:47:28 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:48:30 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:49:52 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:50:55 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:52:15 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:53:32 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:54:34 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:55:54 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:56:55 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:57:55 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 09:59:05 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:00:05 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:01:06 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:02:12 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:03:22 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:04:25 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:05:26 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:06:27 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:07:28 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:08:38 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 10:09:39 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts [snip] /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 12:57:25 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 12:58:25 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 12:59:39 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:00:39 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:01:39 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 121.6 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:03:11 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 121.6 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:04:11 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 121.6 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:05:58 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 121.6 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:06:59 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 121.6 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:08:03 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:09:04 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:10:05 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 121.6 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:11:06 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:12:15 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:13:16 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:14:16 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:15:30 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:16:30 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:17:33 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:18:34 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:19:35 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 121.6 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:20:36 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:21:44 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 121.6 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:22:44 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 121.6 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:23:46 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:24:47 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:25:48 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:26:49 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:28:06 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 117.3 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:29:07 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:30:08 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:31:16 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:32:17 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:33:18 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:34:27 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:35:28 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:36:29 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:37:34 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:38:35 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:39:40 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:40:45 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:41:46 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:42:47 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:43:48 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:44:49 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:45:50 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:47:06 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:48:07 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:49:08 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:50:14 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:51:15 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:52:16 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:53:23 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:54:24 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:55:25 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:56:34 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:57:35 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:58:36 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 13:59:45 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:00:47 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:01:50 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:02:53 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:03:55 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 115.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:05:01 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 118.8 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:06:01 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:07:04 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:08:07 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.2 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:09:15 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:10:35 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:11:35 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:12:35 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts /var/log/syslog:Feb 7 14:13:49 mythtv64 apcupsd[13615]: LINEV : 120.9 Volts Seems to have gone well, other than they started a few minutes late and finished a few minutes late too. Didn't stay within the announced window very well. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 20:49:11 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:49:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spontaneous hard shutdown -- cause? In-Reply-To: <20120207203159.GD27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1328645259.83635.YahooMailNeo@web113409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120207203159.GD27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1328647751.50810.YahooMailNeo@web113415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >> For few days now, I'm having spontaneous shutdown.? Not a reboot, >> but just sudden power down with no log to tell what happened. >> No problem with hydro.? Just before the shutdown, I hear some >> relay being triggered in the power supply.? It's the same sound >> you'd normally hear in the normal shutdown. >> >> So, I'm thinking bad motherboard.? Has anyone encountered this >> kind of symptom before? > > Overheating?? Fan failure? > > Could be bad power supply or bad motherboard. Hmm... I'll check the power supply fan. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 7 23:31:04 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:31:04 -0500 Subject: Essay on RAID reliability Message-ID: http://etbe.coker.com.au/2012/02/06/reliability-raid/ Interesting article describing some of the back-and-forth of risks relating to whether or not you actually get improved reliability if you use Really Big Disks to construct RAID arrays. It seems as though it's challenging to figure out which aspects of the overall storage system are implicitly and/or explicitly highly trusted. I observe that discussions are ongoing on the Postgres hackers list on the merits of doing per-page checksums, particularly as some of the failure cases that can take place do not lend themselves to having any reasonable solution beyond "let me get out a backup tape," and there's a fair bit of risk of false positives (e.g. - checksum claims failure of a write, even though what failed was the attempt to flush out the checksum). Use of ZFS/BTRFS may be preferable, though it's not perfect, as it's pushing risks to a different location. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 8 13:04:42 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:04:42 -0500 Subject: tar as a file system backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F3272EA.1080606@rogers.com> William Muriithi wrote: > Morning pals > > I am planning to repurpose a server and I am kind of hesitant of > reformatting it as I am not very certain if I got everything backup. > > How safe is it to assume this command has compressed and archived > everything on the old system? > > tar -zcvpf /backup/servername-`date '+%d-%B-%Y'`.tar.gz / > --exclude=/backup --exclude=proc > > Just may feel a little more confident if I get a second eye saying all > seem fine as long as tar exit with 0 flag > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Well, tar has been used to back up systems for many years. Why do you think it will fail? As always with back ups, make sure you can restore. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 8 13:07:12 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:07:12 -0500 Subject: tar as a file system backup In-Reply-To: <1328631999.70743.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEHBU+L9ui1Svu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1328631999.70743.YahooMailNeo@web113416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F327380.7060205@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > You might want to exclude/dev, /sys, /mnt/, ...:-) Of course he'll want to include /dev/null. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 8 13:24:20 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:24:20 -0500 Subject: Spontaneous hard shutdown -- cause? In-Reply-To: <1328645259.83635.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3M5A34FEqDeB/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1328645259.83635.YahooMailNeo@web113409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F327784.2060401@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > Hi All, > > For few days now, I'm having spontaneous shutdown. Not a reboot, > but just sudden power down with no log to tell what happened. > No problem with hydro. Just before the shutdown, I hear some > relay being triggered in the power supply. It's the same sound > you'd normally hear in the normal shutdown. > > So, I'm thinking bad motherboard. Has anyone encountered this > kind of symptom before? > > Actually, anything that causes a power fault can do this. Without some testing, it's impossible to say. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 8 13:46:45 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 08:46:45 -0500 Subject: tar as a file system backup In-Reply-To: <4F327380.7060205-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1328631999.70743.YahooMailNeo@web113416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F327380.7060205@rogers.com> Message-ID: <22039C4B-C9E5-45BE-A81A-198AB62D19D7@gmail.com> On 2012-02-08, at 8:07, James Knott wrote: > William Park wrote: >> You might want to exclude/dev, /sys, /mnt/, ...:-) > > Of course he'll want to include /dev/null. ;-) > /dev/zero compresses really well ... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 8 14:53:29 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:53:29 -0500 Subject: Voltage Reduction Test February 7 (Ontario only) - Len's voltage logs. In-Reply-To: <20120207203825.GE27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120131161540.GB27835@waltdnes.org> <20120207203825.GE27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F328C69.2040707@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > So if anyone is curious, here is what my UPS saw today: While I didn't notice this, as I wasn't home, I have noticed frequent very brief interruptions lately, that last long enough to be noticeable with lights, but not long enough to affect other stuff. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 8 15:58:49 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:58:49 -0500 Subject: Google tops Greenpeace IT ranking Message-ID: http://goo.gl/0lX43 -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 9 16:16:40 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 11:16:40 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare Message-ID: Has anyone used SparkleShare? It's essentially a DropBox replacement that you run yourself, with git on the back end. I got it installed on Debian testing last night but had no time to experiment - glad there was a package available as it, or its dependencies, sucked in a variety of packages including mono and libbluray that suggested that compiling it yourself wouldn't be pretty. If anyone has used it, I'd be interested in stories of installation, problems, client behaviour, pretty much anything. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 9 16:59:00 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 11:59:00 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > Has anyone used SparkleShare? ?It's essentially a DropBox replacement > that you run yourself, with git on the back end. ?I got it installed > on Debian testing last night but had no time to experiment - glad > there was a package available as it, or its dependencies, sucked in a > variety of packages including mono and libbluray that suggested that > compiling it yourself wouldn't be pretty. ?If anyone has used it, I'd > be interested in stories of installation, problems, client behaviour, > pretty much anything. There's a Debian package now; it seems to start up OK, and generates a couple of SSH keys. Then the X client closes off the initial configuration window, and doesn't appear to offer a way to open another window to get to the bits of the application involved in managing repositories. So that's looking pretty vastly useless, at this point. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 9 18:49:23 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 13:49:23 -0500 Subject: What would you want from an Asterisk/VoIP Talk? Message-ID: <4F341533.5000501@ss.org> I've heard some more then a few folks express interest in having an Asterisk/VoIP talk at GTALUG. I'd like to hear from you all what you'd like from just such a talk. What information do you want or expect from such a talk? What would you like instructional wise from such a talk (an actual walk through, or just pointers to walk throughs)? Any other thoughts/comments? As a change of pace, please email _Me_ directly and I will summarize to list the results come Monday. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 9 18:56:10 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 10:56:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would you want from an Asterisk/VoIP Talk? In-Reply-To: <4F341533.5000501-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4F341533.5000501@ss.org> Message-ID: <1328813770.93524.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> For me... now that Ihave VoIP, what can I do with it? -- William >________________________________ > From: Scott Sullivan >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 1:49:23 PM >Subject: [TLUG]: What would you want from an Asterisk/VoIP Talk? > >I've heard some more then a few folks express interest in having an Asterisk/VoIP talk at GTALUG. > >I'd like to hear from you all what you'd like from just such a talk. > >What information do you want or expect from such a talk? > >What would you like instructional wise from such a talk (an actual walk through, or just pointers to walk throughs)? > >Any other thoughts/comments? > > >As a change of pace, please email _Me_ directly and I will summarize to list the results come Monday. > >-- Scott Sullivan >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jarl.stefansson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 9 20:16:40 2012 From: jarl.stefansson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jarl Stefansson) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:16:40 -0500 Subject: What would you want from an Asterisk/VoIP Talk? In-Reply-To: <1328813770.93524.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOE5A34FEqDeB/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <4F341533.5000501@ss.org> <1328813770.93524.YahooMailNeo@web113419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I for one would be very interested in a comparison of FreeSWITCH vs. Asterisk. -- Regards, Jarl Stefansson jarl.stefansson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org +1-416-888-6908 On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 1:56 PM, William Park wrote: > For me... now that I have VoIP, what can I do with it? > -- > William > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Scott Sullivan > *To:* tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > *Sent:* Thursday, February 9, 2012 1:49:23 PM > *Subject:* [TLUG]: What would you want from an Asterisk/VoIP Talk? > > I've heard some more then a few folks express interest in having an > Asterisk/VoIP talk at GTALUG. > > I'd like to hear from you all what you'd like from just such a talk. > > What information do you want or expect from such a talk? > > What would you like instructional wise from such a talk (an actual walk > through, or just pointers to walk throughs)? > > Any other thoughts/comments? > > > As a change of pace, please email _Me_ directly and I will summarize to > list the results come Monday. > > -- Scott Sullivan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 9 20:21:31 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 12:21:31 -0800 Subject: What would you want from an Asterisk/VoIP Talk? In-Reply-To: <4F341533.5000501-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4F341533.5000501@ss.org> Message-ID: how about a way to help deal with annoying telemarketers as well as the "this is your captain speaking" cruise scams, without making it too annoying for normal callers to get through. Whitelisting. auto-blocking incomplete incoming #'s (9-digit call-id) etc On Feb 9, 2012 10:50 AM, "Scott Sullivan" wrote: > I've heard some more then a few folks express interest in having an > Asterisk/VoIP talk at GTALUG. > > I'd like to hear from you all what you'd like from just such a talk. > > What information do you want or expect from such a talk? > > What would you like instructional wise from such a talk (an actual walk > through, or just pointers to walk throughs)? > > Any other thoughts/comments? > > > As a change of pace, please email _Me_ directly and I will summarize to > list the results come Monday. > > -- > Scott Sullivan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 01:20:24 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 20:20:24 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9 February 2012 11:59, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Giles Orr wrote: >> Has anyone used SparkleShare? ?It's essentially a DropBox replacement >> that you run yourself, with git on the back end. ?I got it installed >> on Debian testing last night but had no time to experiment - glad >> there was a package available as it, or its dependencies, sucked in a >> variety of packages including mono and libbluray that suggested that >> compiling it yourself wouldn't be pretty. ?If anyone has used it, I'd >> be interested in stories of installation, problems, client behaviour, >> pretty much anything. > > There's a Debian package now; it seems to start up OK, and generates a > couple of SSH keys. > > Then the X client closes off the initial configuration window, and > doesn't appear to offer a way to open another window to get to the > bits of the application involved in managing repositories. ?So that's > looking pretty vastly useless, at this point. This is precisely the point I reached this evening, and we both have the same problem for the same reason: neither of us has Gnome. I got to the point in the documentation where it says "Click the SparkleShare status icon ..." I haven't found a solution to that one yet. The sparkleshare process is running, but I have no idea how to invoke it to make changes, and Google hasn't been my friend so far. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 15:06:06 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:06:06 -0500 Subject: OT: Windows iostat equivalent Message-ID: Morning Curious, on Linux, one can use iostat to get an idea how well filesystem is performing. Do Microsoft platform have such a tool? William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 15:22:11 2012 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:22:11 -0500 Subject: OT: Windows iostat equivalent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120210152211.GB2511@watson-wilson.ca> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 10:06:06AM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: >Curious, on Linux, one can use iostat to get an idea how well >filesystem is performing. Do Microsoft platform have such a tool? There used to be a tool called perfmon that comes with Windows. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 15:31:59 2012 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:31:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Windows iostat equivalent In-Reply-To: <20120210152211.GB2511-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120210152211.GB2511@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4F35386F.6070201@gmail.com> On 10/02/2012 10:22 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 10:06:06AM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: >> Curious, on Linux, one can use iostat to get an idea how well >> filesystem is performing. Do Microsoft platform have such a tool? > > There used to be a tool called perfmon that comes with Windows. It's still there in Windows 7. Start, Run, "perfmon". There are also per-process IO counters in the Task Manager. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 16:24:32 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:24:32 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: <4F350A5D.7030806-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F350A5D.7030806@akber.net> Message-ID: On 10 February 2012 07:15, Syed Faisal Akber wrote: > On 12-02-09 08:20 PM, Giles Orr wrote: >> >> On 9 February 2012 11:59, Christopher Browne ?wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Giles Orr ?wrote: >>>> >>>> Has anyone used SparkleShare? ?It's essentially a DropBox replacement >>>> that you run yourself, with git on the back end. ?I got it installed >>>> on Debian testing last night but had no time to experiment - glad >>>> there was a package available as it, or its dependencies, sucked in a >>>> variety of packages including mono and libbluray that suggested that >>>> compiling it yourself wouldn't be pretty. ?If anyone has used it, I'd >>>> be interested in stories of installation, problems, client behaviour, >>>> pretty much anything. >>> >>> There's a Debian package now; it seems to start up OK, and generates a >>> couple of SSH keys. >>> >>> Then the X client closes off the initial configuration window, and >>> doesn't appear to offer a way to open another window to get to the >>> bits of the application involved in managing repositories. ?So that's >>> looking pretty vastly useless, at this point. >> >> This is precisely the point I reached this evening, and we both have >> the same problem for the same reason: neither of us has Gnome. ?I got >> to the point in the documentation where it says "Click the >> SparkleShare status icon ..." ?I haven't found a solution to that one >> yet. ?The sparkleshare process is running, but I have no idea how to >> invoke it to make changes, and Google hasn't been my friend so far. >> > I do use it. ?It is nice but a bit buggy. ?Which version are you using? > > I'm using 0.2 in Ubuntu, which seems to work okayish. ?The problem I have is > that the syncing between hosts is not always automatic as they claim it to > be. ?I sometimes have to manually do a push or a pull using the git > command-line. > > Otherwise, it is a great tool. ?I'm surprised that it hasn't been ported to > Windows yet though. I'm using v0.60, which is available in Debian testing. The SparkleShare website has a v0.80 which makes the Debian version sound old, but it appears that the Debian one is only one rev behind and only a couple months old. There appear to be versions for both Windows and Android, although I haven't tried either of them. Interesting point for anyone who's considering trying it: the client is a big fat install including Mono and some of Gnome (clearly you are expected by the developer(s?) to have ALL of Gnome), but the server is pure Git. Which also means A) revision control, and B) easy recovery of your data should the client go pear-shaped for some reason. As a follow-up to my previous message, I've emailed the developer about accessing the configuration window when you're not a Gnome user. No response yet, but it's only been about 12 hours. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 12:15:25 2012 From: faisal-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Syed Faisal Akber) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 07:15:25 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F350A5D.7030806@akber.net> On 12-02-09 08:20 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > On 9 February 2012 11:59, Christopher Browne wrote: >> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Giles Orr wrote: >>> Has anyone used SparkleShare? It's essentially a DropBox replacement >>> that you run yourself, with git on the back end. I got it installed >>> on Debian testing last night but had no time to experiment - glad >>> there was a package available as it, or its dependencies, sucked in a >>> variety of packages including mono and libbluray that suggested that >>> compiling it yourself wouldn't be pretty. If anyone has used it, I'd >>> be interested in stories of installation, problems, client behaviour, >>> pretty much anything. >> There's a Debian package now; it seems to start up OK, and generates a >> couple of SSH keys. >> >> Then the X client closes off the initial configuration window, and >> doesn't appear to offer a way to open another window to get to the >> bits of the application involved in managing repositories. So that's >> looking pretty vastly useless, at this point. > This is precisely the point I reached this evening, and we both have > the same problem for the same reason: neither of us has Gnome. I got > to the point in the documentation where it says "Click the > SparkleShare status icon ..." I haven't found a solution to that one > yet. The sparkleshare process is running, but I have no idea how to > invoke it to make changes, and Google hasn't been my friend so far. > I do use it. It is nice but a bit buggy. Which version are you using? I'm using 0.2 in Ubuntu, which seems to work okayish. The problem I have is that the syncing between hosts is not always automatic as they claim it to be. I sometimes have to manually do a push or a pull using the git command-line. Otherwise, it is a great tool. I'm surprised that it hasn't been ported to Windows yet though. Faisal -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 17:11:36 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:11:36 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: <4F350A5D.7030806-nMFrlatgk0VeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F350A5D.7030806@akber.net> Message-ID: <4F354FC8.9080508@utoronto.ca> On 02/10/2012 07:15 AM, Syed Faisal Akber wrote: > I do use it. It is nice but a bit buggy. Which version are you using? > > I'm using 0.2 in Ubuntu, which seems to work okayish. The problem I > have is that the syncing between hosts is not always automatic as they > claim it to be. I sometimes have to manually do a push or a pull using > the git command-line. > > Otherwise, it is a great tool. I'm surprised that it hasn't been ported > to Windows yet though. There are instructions for building on Windows, there's just no officially packaged and released version: https://github.com/serras/SparkleShare/blob/gettext-cs/README.windows.md Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 18:04:56 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:04:56 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: References: <4F350A5D.7030806@akber.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > Interesting point for anyone who's considering trying it: the client > is a big fat install including Mono and some of Gnome (clearly you are > expected by the developer(s?) to have ALL of Gnome), but the server is > pure Git. ?Which also means A) revision control, and B) easy recovery > of your data should the client go pear-shaped for some reason. The code base is written in Mono, so the Mono involvement should come as not too much of a surprise. It amounts to a "slightly more specified environment than Java," to my mind, with all that's potentially good and bad about that. The use of SCM underneath is a good thing; I like the way you're thinking about that. > As a follow-up to my previous message, I've emailed the developer > about accessing the configuration window when you're not a Gnome user. > ?No response yet, but it's only been about 12 hours. https://github.com/hbons/SparkleShare/issues/572 >From that, I have been able to infer that you need some X client that can serve as a "notification area." I observe, in searching for that, that the Ubuntu folk have decided that the Notification Area isn't a good thing, and intend its removal. I tend to agree with the reasoning that I see, and SparkleShare seems consistent as a case of something that isn't properly a "notification" that is getting stowed in the Notification Area because it seemed like a convenient idea at the time. FYI, if I install gnome-panel (which draws in something of a "cast of dozens" of additional packages, on Debian), and run it, a sliver of screen gets stolen from Stumpwm, an icon for SparkleShare appears, and I can indeed take the additional steps to add a "Hosted Project." I set up access to one of my repos on GitHub, which seems like a reasonably harmless thing to add, initially. SparkleShare seems unlikely to trash the repo, and that's an eminently repairable action. Adding the project works. What doesn't work quite so much is the following step of getting a "link code" from the "SparkleShare Dashboard," which doesn't appear to have a place for me to link to. I think I'll leave that for now; if someone else takes interest to take it another step down the road, that's great. The interesting bit of outcome is that I feel OK, for now, about adding the sliver of gnome-panel to my screen. That's playing OK with stumpwm, not interfering in any way I can see. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 18:25:51 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:25:51 -0500 Subject: OT: Windows iostat equivalent In-Reply-To: <4F35386F.6070201-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120210152211.GB2511@watson-wilson.ca> <4F35386F.6070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks On 10 February 2012 10:31, Mike Kallies wrote: > On 10/02/2012 10:22 AM, Neil Watson wrote: >> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 10:06:06AM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: >>> Curious, on Linux, one can use iostat to get an idea how well >>> filesystem is performing. ?Do Microsoft platform have such a tool? >> >> There used to be a tool called perfmon that comes with Windows. > > It's still there in Windows 7. ?Start, Run, "perfmon". > > There are also per-process IO counters in the Task Manager. > > > -Mike > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 19:20:49 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:20:49 -0500 Subject: SSL/TLS library comparison Message-ID: Hi, Just came across this link and it got me thinking, why is openSSL so popular than GnuTLS. It looks like GnuTLS has way more features than openSSL? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_TLS_Implementations Just being curious, not that I have any preference Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 19:23:18 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:23:18 -0500 Subject: SSL/TLS library comparison In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120210192318.GF27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 02:20:49PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > Just came across this link and it got me thinking, why is openSSL so > popular than GnuTLS. It looks like GnuTLS has way more features than > openSSL? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_TLS_Implementations > > Just being curious, not that I have any preference Possibly openssl is much older, and it doesn't have the GPL viral issue, although it does have the BSD 3 clause license issue along with the fact it is covered by a lot of different licenses. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 10 20:11:50 2012 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:11:50 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: References: <4F350A5D.7030806@akber.net> Message-ID: On 10 February 2012 13:04, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Giles Orr wrote: >> Interesting point for anyone who's considering trying it: the client >> is a big fat install including Mono and some of Gnome (clearly you are >> expected by the developer(s?) to have ALL of Gnome), but the server is >> pure Git. ?Which also means A) revision control, and B) easy recovery >> of your data should the client go pear-shaped for some reason. > > The code base is written in Mono, so the Mono involvement should come > as not too much of a surprise. ?It amounts to a "slightly more > specified environment than Java," to my mind, with all that's > potentially good and bad about that. > > The use of SCM underneath is a good thing; I like the way you're > thinking about that. > >> As a follow-up to my previous message, I've emailed the developer >> about accessing the configuration window when you're not a Gnome user. >> ?No response yet, but it's only been about 12 hours. > > https://github.com/hbons/SparkleShare/issues/572 > > From that, I have been able to infer that you need some X client that > can serve as a "notification area." > > I observe, in searching for that, that the Ubuntu folk have decided > that the Notification Area isn't a good thing, and intend its removal. > ? ?I tend to > agree with the reasoning that I see, and SparkleShare seems consistent > as a case of something that isn't properly a "notification" that is > getting stowed in the Notification Area because it seemed like a > convenient idea at the time. > > FYI, if I install gnome-panel (which draws in something of a "cast of > dozens" of additional packages, on Debian), and run it, a sliver of > screen gets stolen from Stumpwm, an icon for SparkleShare appears, and > I can indeed take the additional steps to add a "Hosted Project." ?I > set up access to one of my repos on GitHub, which seems like a > reasonably harmless thing to add, initially. ?SparkleShare seems > unlikely to trash the repo, and that's an eminently repairable action. > > Adding the project works. ?What doesn't work quite so much is the > following step of getting a "link code" from the "SparkleShare > Dashboard," which doesn't appear to have a place for me to link to. > > I think I'll leave that for now; if someone else takes interest to > take it another step down the road, that's great. > > The interesting bit of outcome is that I feel OK, for now, about > adding the sliver of gnome-panel to my screen. ?That's playing OK with > stumpwm, not interfering in any way I can see. I got a reply from the developer, and that was the "solution" he offered (ie. run gnome-panel). I've always avoided installing Gnome, so I'm a little disappointed. But good to hear that it (mostly) works. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 11 04:20:52 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 23:20:52 -0500 Subject: Anyone used a LittleChips LN2440SBC board? Message-ID: <4F35ECA4.7090408@ve3syb.ca> Greetings, all. I have an ARM-based LN2440SBC board that is made by LittleChips. I can compile the 2.4 Linux for it and also have compiled the 2.6 kernel that was patched to support this board. I can't seem to get the board to recognize the SD memory card and that is hampering my ability to do more with this board. A lot of the docs I have for the board are in a non-English language. The company website seems a bit lacking in information and also seems a bit dated (obsolete device?). I can't seem to find a community around this device but there are references to using Pokey Linux on it. I'm wondering if anyone on this list might have, or have used, this board, know anything about it. The SD card is supposed to be available as /dev/mmcblk01 but all attempts to access it that way have failed (so far). Any other suggestions of what I can try from those of you who work with embedded systems would be appreciated. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 11 13:28:47 2012 From: chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DAVID CHIPMAN) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 05:28:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: What time server do you use? In-Reply-To: <20110508211526.GA18507-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20110508211526.GA18507@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <1328966927.44341.YahooMailNeo@web88615.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Walter Dnes To: Toronto Linux Users Group Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2011 5:15:26 PM Subject: [TLUG]: What time server do you use? ? My "settime" script is... #!/bin/bash date /usr/bin/sudo /usr/bin/rdate time.nrc.ca -s /usr/bin/sudo /sbin/hwclock --systohc date ? time.nrc.ca seems to have stopped working for me.? What servers do you use? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Walter, I also recently discovered that time.nrc.ca stopped working as a time server. I use time4.nrc.ca. I hope this helps, -David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 11 13:36:52 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:36:52 -0500 Subject: What time server do you use? In-Reply-To: <1328966927.44341.YahooMailNeo-gZPNubE7EPWvYMxfvLqCK1Z8N9CAUha/QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20110508211526.GA18507@waltdnes.org> <1328966927.44341.YahooMailNeo@web88615.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F366EF4.4060703@gmail.com> On 12-02-11 08:28 , DAVID CHIPMAN wrote: > > I also recently discovered that time.nrc.ca stopped working as a time > server. I use time4.nrc.ca. I hope this helps, Use the pool: http://www.pool.ntp.org/zone/ca Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 11 13:40:21 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:40:21 -0500 Subject: What time server do you use? In-Reply-To: <1328966927.44341.YahooMailNeo-gZPNubE7EPWvYMxfvLqCK1Z8N9CAUha/QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20110508211526.GA18507@waltdnes.org> <1328966927.44341.YahooMailNeo@web88615.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 8:28 AM, DAVID CHIPMAN wrote: > I also recently discovered that time.nrc.ca stopped working as a time > server. I use time4.nrc.ca. I hope this helps, I use a couple of instances of pool.ntp.org This is what network appliances tend to use, as it is inherently reasonably distributed. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 11 15:25:11 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 10:25:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone used a LittleChips LN2440SBC board? In-Reply-To: <4F35ECA4.7090408-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4F35ECA4.7090408@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: | From: Kevin Cozens | I have an ARM-based LN2440SBC board that is made by LittleChips. I can compile | the 2.4 Linux for it and also have compiled the 2.6 kernel that was patched to | support this board. I can't seem to get the board to recognize the SD memory | card and that is hampering my ability to do more with this board. Shot in the dark: If the board is old enough, it may not have SDHC support. I only see SD mentioned on the spec sheet. A quick Google for "LN2440SBC sdhc" doesn't convince me that it supports SDHC. Is you SD card SD or SDHC? I think that all cards 2G or less would work as SD. At least that used to be the case. Any card larger than 4G is SDHC-only; SD-only hardware cannot handle them. Some 4G cards would work with SD hardware, even though that was not covered by the SD standard; only some SD drivers were up up to the task. Summary: try a 2G or smaller card. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 11 20:32:14 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:32:14 -0500 Subject: What time server do you use? In-Reply-To: <1328966927.44341.YahooMailNeo-gZPNubE7EPWvYMxfvLqCK1Z8N9CAUha/QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20110508211526.GA18507@waltdnes.org> <1328966927.44341.YahooMailNeo@web88615.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F36D04E.1080402@rogers.com> DAVID CHIPMAN wrote: > My "settime" script is... > > #!/bin/bash > date > /usr/bin/sudo /usr/bin/rdate time.nrc.ca -s > /usr/bin/sudo /sbin/hwclock --systohc > date > > time.nrc.ca seems to have stopped working for me. What servers do you > use? I use time.nrc.ca and it works fine with NTP. However, rdate is obsolete and perhaps is no longer available from them. You might want to try the ntpdate command instead or just configure your computer to use NTP automagically. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 11 23:07:18 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:07:18 -0500 Subject: Kernel panic reading - Can you tell what triggered it? Message-ID: Hello, I am sharing this as I am not sure what triggered it and therefore have not figured how to fix it. This is the third time the system has crashed and the system is just just running vertica. Vertica claim they do not have any kernel level module - I feel like they are not truthful but have no evidence to prove them wrong. If they are telling the truth, then RHEL6 does have a bug would like to post on RedHat bugzilla The most interesting part:- BUG: Bad page state in process vertica pfn:6db6d9adbf6d47af page:ffff8801dfe7ae48 flags:000000000000001f count:36561488 mapcount:-5631 mapping:ffff8801dfe7ae60 index:ffff8801dfe7ae60 (Tainted: G W ---------------- ) Pid: 682, comm: vertica Tainted: G W ---------------- 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 Call Trace: [] ? bad_page+0x107/0x160 I read this and concluded that vertica is messing around with the kernel. Vertica pushed back and said its a xen problem, something I am finding hard to figure out how they arrived to that decision. Am I wrong to assume they are on drugs? What else can taint a kernel other than a kernel module? The odd part though is "cat /proc/sys/kernel/tainted" return zero, yet the system think its tainted when going down. Look like the iptables module also have issues, but I doubt RedHat would would look at it as the kernel claim to be tainted. Full logs below. Microcode Update Driver: v2.00 , Peter Oruba NET: Registered protocol family 10 lo: Disabled Privacy Extensions ip6_tables: (C) 2000-2006 Netfilter Core Team nf_conntrack version 0.5.0 (16384 buckets, 65536 max) ip_tables: (C) 2000-2006 Netfilter Core Team Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server release 6.2 (Santiago) Kernel 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 on an x86_64 dev.bigdatalabs login: ip_tables: (C) 2000-2006 Netfilter Core Team ------------[ cut here ]------------ WARNING: at lib/list_debug.c:48 list_del+0x6e/0xa0() (Not tainted) list_del corruption. prev->next should be ffffea00027543d0, but was ffffea0002724588 Modules linked in: nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv4 iptable_filter ip_tables autofs4 ipt_REJECT ip6t_REJECT nf_conntrack_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv6 xt_state nf_conntrack ip6table_filter ip6_tables ipv6 microcode xen_netfront ext4 mbcache jbd2 xen_blkfront dm_mirror dm_region_hash dm_log dm_mod [last unloaded: nf_defrag_ipv4] Pid: 768, comm: vertica Not tainted 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 Call Trace: [] ? warn_slowpath_common+0x87/0xc0 [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 [] ? warn_slowpath_fmt+0x46/0x50 [] ? do_get_write_access+0x3b4/0x520 [jbd2] [] ? list_del+0x6e/0xa0 [] ? free_pcppages_bulk+0x15c/0x390 [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] ? free_hot_cold_page+0x1b8/0x220 [] ? __pagevec_free+0x42/0x90 [] ? release_pages+0x21c/0x250 [] ? ____pagevec_lru_add+0x167/0x180 [] ? __pagevec_release+0x26/0x40 [] ? truncate_inode_pages_range+0x1fb/0x460 [] ? unmap_mapping_range+0x72/0x140 [] ? truncate_inode_pages+0x15/0x20 [] ? truncate_pagecache+0x47/0x70 [] ? truncate_setsize+0x19/0x20 [] ? vmtruncate+0x3e/0x70 [] ? inode_setattr+0x30/0x60 [] ? ext4_setattr+0x10c/0x360 [ext4] [] ? notify_change+0x168/0x340 [] ? __d_lookup+0xa7/0x150 [] ? do_truncate+0x64/0xa0 [] ? security_inode_permission+0x1f/0x30 [] ? do_filp_open+0x829/0xd60 [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 [] ? alloc_fd+0x92/0x160 [] ? do_sys_open+0x69/0x140 [] ? sys_open+0x20/0x30 [] ? system_call_fastpath+0x16/0x1b ---[ end trace 2de2020846513d27 ]--- BUG: Bad page state in process vertica pfn:6db6d9adbf6d47af page:ffff8801dfe7ae48 flags:000000000000001f count:36561488 mapcount:-5631 mapping:ffff8801dfe7ae60 index:ffff8801dfe7ae60 (Tainted: G W ---------------- ) Pid: 682, comm: vertica Tainted: G W ---------------- 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 Call Trace: [] ? bad_page+0x107/0x160 [] ? get_page_from_freelist+0x724/0x820 [] ? xen_mc_flush+0x106/0x250 [] ? __alloc_pages_nodemask+0x111/0x940 [] ? __copy_from_user_inatomic+0xe/0x20 [] ? get_futex_value_locked+0x2c/0x50 [] ? futex_wait_setup+0x121/0x140 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? alloc_pages_vma+0x9a/0x150 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] ? handle_pte_fault+0x76b/0xb50 [] ? futex_wake+0x10e/0x120 [] ? __raw_callee_save_xen_pmd_val+0x11/0x1e [] ? handle_mm_fault+0x1e4/0x2b0 [] ? do_futex+0x100/0xb00 [] ? __do_page_fault+0x139/0x480 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 [] ? pvclock_clocksource_read+0x58/0xd0 [] ? do_page_fault+0x3e/0xa0 [] ? page_fault+0x25/0x30 Disabling lock debugging due to kernel taint general protection fault: 0000 [#1] SMP last sysfs file: /sys/module/nf_conntrack/initstate CPU 0 Modules linked in: nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv4 iptable_filter ip_tables autofs4 ipt_REJECT ip6t_REJECT nf_conntrack_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv6 xt_state nf_conntrack ip6table_filter ip6_tables ipv6 microcode xen_netfront ext4 mbcache jbd2 xen_blkfront dm_mirror dm_region_hash dm_log dm_mod [last unloaded: nf_defrag_ipv4] Pid: 910, comm: vertica Tainted: G B W ---------------- 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 RIP: e030:[] [] list_del+0xc/0xa0 RSP: e02b:ffff88009f6b9a28 EFLAGS: 00010096 RAX: 0000000000000200 RBX: dead000000100100 RCX: 0000000000012b20 RDX: 0000000000000030 RSI: ffff8801dfe7ae70 RDI: dead000000100100 RBP: ffff88009f6b9a38 R08: 0000000000000002 R09: 0000000000000000 R10: 0000000000000000 R11: 0000000000000000 R12: ffff8801dfe7ae40 R13: ffff8800000106c0 R14: 000000000000073a R15: dead0000001000d8 FS: 00007f5c92a65700(0000) GS:ffff88002804f000(0000) knlGS:0000000000000000 CS: e033 DS: 0000 ES: 0000 CR0: 000000008005003b CR2: 00007f5d19d4c500 CR3: 00000001d74ea000 CR4: 0000000000002660 DR0: 0000000000000000 DR1: 0000000000000000 DR2: 0000000000000000 DR3: 0000000000000000 DR6: 00000000ffff0ff0 DR7: 0000000000000400 Process vertica (pid: 910, threadinfo ffff88009f6b8000, task ffff8801d9b9e040) Stack: ffff88009f6b9a38 0000000000000001 ffff88009f6b9b58 ffffffff81122218 <0> 0000000000000180 0000000000000180 ffffffff00000002 ffffffff810046b6 <0> 000000000002be6e 00000040ffffffff 0000000000000000 ffff880000029b08 Call Trace: [] get_page_from_freelist+0x288/0x820 [] ? xen_mc_flush+0x106/0x250 [] __alloc_pages_nodemask+0x111/0x940 [] ? enqueue_entity+0x125/0x410 ------------[ cut here ]------------ WARNING: at lib/list_debug.c:51 list_del+0x8d/0xa0() (Tainted: G B W ---------------- ) list_del corruption. next->prev should be ffffea00005faac0, but was ffffea000204b060 Modules linked in: nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv4 iptable_filter ip_tables autofs4 ipt_REJECT ip6t_REJECT nf_conntrack_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv6 xt_state nf_conntrack ip6table_filter ip6_tables ipv6 microcode xen_netfront ext4 mbcache jbd2 xen_blkfront dm_mirror dm_region_hash dm_log dm_mod [last unloaded: nf_defrag_ipv4] Pid: 25265, comm: rs:main Q:Reg Tainted: G B W ---------------- 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 Call Trace: [] ? warn_slowpath_common+0x87/0xc0 [] ? warn_slowpath_fmt+0x46/0x50 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? list_del+0x8d/0xa0 [] ? __rmqueue+0xc3/0x490 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? get_page_from_freelist+0x598/0x820 [] ? __alloc_pages_nodemask+0x111/0x940 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] ? kmem_cache_free+0xc4/0x2b0 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 [] ? __wake_up+0x53/0x70 [] ? alloc_pages_current+0xaa/0x110 [] ? __page_cache_alloc+0x87/0x90 [] ? __do_page_cache_readahead+0xdb/0x210 [] ? ra_submit+0x21/0x30 [] ? filemap_fault+0x4c3/0x500 [] ? __do_fault+0x54/0x510 [] ? __generic_file_aio_write+0x250/0x480 [] ? handle_pte_fault+0xf7/0xb50 [] ? generic_file_aio_write+0xbe/0xe0 [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? __raw_callee_save_xen_pmd_val+0x11/0x1e [] ? handle_mm_fault+0x1e4/0x2b0 [] ? __do_page_fault+0x139/0x480 [] ? fsnotify_put_event+0x49/0x70 [] ? pvclock_clocksource_read+0x58/0xd0 [] ? xen_clocksource_read+0x21/0x30 [] ? xen_clocksource_get_cycles+0x9/0x10 [] ? getnstimeofday+0x60/0xf0 [] ? do_page_fault+0x3e/0xa0 [] ? page_fault+0x25/0x30 ---[ end trace 2de2020846513d28 ]--- [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] alloc_pages_vma+0x9a/0x150 [] handle_pte_fault+0x76b/0xb50 [] ? wake_futex+0x40/0x60 [] ? futex_requeue+0x310/0x890 [] ? futex_wake+0x10e/0x120 [] ? __raw_callee_save_xen_pmd_val+0x11/0x1e [] handle_mm_fault+0x1e4/0x2b0 [] ? do_futex+0x100/0xb00 [] __do_page_fault+0x139/0x480 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 [] ? task_sched_runtime+0x46/0xa0 [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 [] ? sample_to_timespec+0x38/0x50 [] ? cpu_clock_sample+0x4c/0x70 [] do_page_fault+0x3e/0xa0 [] page_fault+0x25/0x30 Code: 00 ff ff ff 89 95 fc fe ff ff e9 ab fd ff ff 4c 8b ad e8 fe ff ff e9 db fd ff ff 90 90 90 90 55 48 89 e5 53 48 89 fb 48 83 ec 08 <48> 8b 47 08 4c 8b 00 4c 39 c7 75 39 48 8b 03 4c 8b 40 08 4c 39 RIP [] list_del+0xc/0xa0 RSP ---[ end trace 2de2020846513d29 ]--- Kernel panic - not syncing: Fatal exception Pid: 910, comm: vertica Tainted: G B D W ---------------- 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 Call Trace: [] ? panic+0x78/0x143 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 [] ? oops_end+0xe4/0x100 [] ? die+0x5b/0x90 [] ? do_general_protection+0x152/0x160 [] ? general_protection+0x25/0x30 [] ? list_del+0xc/0xa0 [] ? get_page_from_freelist+0x288/0x820 [] ? xen_mc_flush+0x106/0x250 [] ? __alloc_pages_nodemask+0x111/0x940 [] ? enqueue_entity+0x125/0x410 [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] ? alloc_pages_vma+0x9a/0x150 [] ? handle_pte_fault+0x76b/0xb50 [] ? wake_futex+0x40/0x60 [] ? futex_requeue+0x310/0x890 [] ? futex_wake+0x10e/0x120 [] ? __raw_callee_save_xen_pmd_val+0x11/0x1e [] ? handle_mm_fault+0x1e4/0x2b0 [] ? do_futex+0x100/0xb00 [] ? __do_page_fault+0x139/0x480 [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 [] ? task_sched_runtime+0x46/0xa0 [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 [] ? sample_to_timespec+0x38/0x50 [] ? cpu_clock_sample+0x4c/0x70 [] ? do_page_fault+0x3e/0xa0 [] ? page_fault+0x25/0x30 Xen Minimal OS! start_info: 0x1890000(VA) nr_pages: 0x1e0000 shared_inf: 0xbf712000(MA) pt_base: 0x1893000(VA) nr_pt_frames: 0x11 mfn_list: 0x990000(VA) mod_start: 0x0(VA) mod_len: 0 flags: 0x0 cmd_line: root=/dev/sda1 ro 4 stack: 0x94f860-0x96f860 MM: Init _text: 0x0(VA) _etext: 0x5ff6d(VA) _erodata: 0x78000(VA) _edata: 0x80b00(VA) stack start: 0x94f860(VA) _end: 0x98fe68(VA) start_pfn: 18a7 max_pfn: 1e0000 Mapping memory range 0x1c00000 - 0x1e0000000 setting 0x0-0x78000 readonly skipped 0x1000 MM: Initialise page allocator for 27a0000(27a0000)-1e0000000(1e0000000) MM: done Demand map pfns at 1e0001000-21e0001000. Heap resides at 21e0002000-41e0002000. Initialising timer interface Initialising console ... done. gnttab_table mapped at 0x1e0001000. Initialising scheduler Thread "Idle": pointer: 0x21e0002010, stack: 0x36f0000 Initialising xenbus Thread "xenstore": pointer: 0x21e00027c0, stack: 0x3700000 Dummy main: start_info=0x96f960 Thread "main": pointer: 0x21e0002f70, stack: 0x3710000 "main" "root=/dev/sda1" "ro" "4" vbd 2049 is hd0 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 11 23:22:55 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:22:55 -0500 Subject: Kernel panic reading - Can you tell what triggered it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F36F84F.1080808@ve3syb.ca> On 12-02-11 06:07 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > I am sharing this as I am not sure what triggered it and therefore > have not figured how to fix it. This is the third time the system has > crashed and the system is just just running vertica. Vertica claim > they do not have any kernel level module You can run lsmod to see a list of loaded modules before and after you start vertica. It certainly looks like vertica is doing something. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 12 04:07:44 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:07:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kernel panic reading - Can you tell what triggered it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: William Muriithi | | I am sharing this as I am not sure what triggered it and therefore | have not figured how to fix it. This is the third time the system has | crashed and the system is just just running vertica. Vertica claim | they do not have any kernel level module - I feel like they are not | truthful but have no evidence to prove them wrong. If they are | telling the truth, then RHEL6 does have a bug would like to post on | RedHat bugzilla Makes sense. My default position would be to trust Vertica. | The most interesting part:- | | BUG: Bad page state in process vertica pfn:6db6d9adbf6d47af | page:ffff8801dfe7ae48 flags:000000000000001f count:36561488 | mapcount:-5631 mapping:ffff8801dfe7ae60 index:ffff8801dfe7ae60 I don't know what a mapcount is, but its name suggests that it ought to be non-negative. Googling for "mapcount negative" (no quotes) gets me mostly items from 2006. One exception is a Zen bug report from last month: I didn't look at it so I don't know if it is at all like your problem. | (Tainted: G W ---------------- ) | Pid: 682, comm: vertica Tainted: G W ---------------- According to line 222 on of - G means: all modules are GPL licensed, or compatibly licensed. In other words, not tainted by loading an off-licensed module - W means that a warning has previously been issued by the kernel I infer that kernel hacks wish to look at the first warning because once a warning happens, all bets are off. | Look like the iptables module also have issues, but I doubt RedHat | would would look at it as the kernel claim to be tainted. Would those be the earlier warnings that set the W taint flag? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 12 04:15:57 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:15:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: What would you want from an Asterisk/VoIP Talk? In-Reply-To: <4F341533.5000501-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4F341533.5000501@ss.org> Message-ID: | From: Scott Sullivan | As a change of pace, please email _Me_ directly and I will summarize to list | the results come Monday. Lots of us ignored this. Sorry. Are you thinking of this for next Tuesday? Or what's likely to happen then? I notice that the web site says: Next meetings in need of a speaker or speakers: February 2012, March 2012, and May 2012. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 12 17:44:51 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:44:51 -0500 Subject: Kernel panic reading - Can you tell what triggered it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120212174451.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 06:07:18PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > Hello, > > I am sharing this as I am not sure what triggered it and therefore > have not figured how to fix it. This is the third time the system has > crashed and the system is just just running vertica. Vertica claim > they do not have any kernel level module - I feel like they are not > truthful but have no evidence to prove them wrong. If they are > telling the truth, then RHEL6 does have a bug would like to post on > RedHat bugzilla > > The most interesting part:- > > BUG: Bad page state in process vertica pfn:6db6d9adbf6d47af > page:ffff8801dfe7ae48 flags:000000000000001f count:36561488 > mapcount:-5631 mapping:ffff8801dfe7ae60 index:ffff8801dfe7ae60 > (Tainted: G W ---------------- ) > Pid: 682, comm: vertica Tainted: G W ---------------- > 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 > Call Trace: > [] ? bad_page+0x107/0x160 > > > I read this and concluded that vertica is messing around with the > kernel. Vertica pushed back and said its a xen problem, something I > am finding hard to figure out how they arrived to that decision. Am I > wrong to assume they are on drugs? What else can taint a kernel other > than a kernel module? An application can not mess with the kernel. So it isn't vertica doing it. > The odd part though is "cat /proc/sys/kernel/tainted" return zero, yet > the system think its tainted when going down. > > Look like the iptables module also have issues, but I doubt RedHat > would would look at it as the kernel claim to be tainted. > > > > Full logs below. > > > > Microcode Update Driver: v2.00 , Peter Oruba > NET: Registered protocol family 10 > lo: Disabled Privacy Extensions > ip6_tables: (C) 2000-2006 Netfilter Core Team > nf_conntrack version 0.5.0 (16384 buckets, 65536 max) > ip_tables: (C) 2000-2006 Netfilter Core Team > > Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server release 6.2 (Santiago) > Kernel 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 on an x86_64 > > dev.bigdatalabs login: ip_tables: (C) 2000-2006 Netfilter Core Team > ------------[ cut here ]------------ > WARNING: at lib/list_debug.c:48 list_del+0x6e/0xa0() (Not tainted) > list_del corruption. prev->next should be ffffea00027543d0, but was > ffffea0002724588 > Modules linked in: nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv4 iptable_filter > ip_tables autofs4 ipt_REJECT ip6t_REJECT nf_conntrack_ipv6 > nf_defrag_ipv6 xt_state nf_conntrack ip6table_filter ip6_tables ipv6 > microcode xen_netfront ext4 mbcache jbd2 xen_blkfront dm_mirror > dm_region_hash dm_log dm_mod [last unloaded: nf_defrag_ipv4] > Pid: 768, comm: vertica Not tainted 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 > Call Trace: > [] ? warn_slowpath_common+0x87/0xc0 > [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 > [] ? warn_slowpath_fmt+0x46/0x50 > [] ? do_get_write_access+0x3b4/0x520 [jbd2] > [] ? list_del+0x6e/0xa0 > [] ? free_pcppages_bulk+0x15c/0x390 > [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] ? free_hot_cold_page+0x1b8/0x220 > [] ? __pagevec_free+0x42/0x90 > [] ? release_pages+0x21c/0x250 > [] ? ____pagevec_lru_add+0x167/0x180 > [] ? __pagevec_release+0x26/0x40 > [] ? truncate_inode_pages_range+0x1fb/0x460 > [] ? unmap_mapping_range+0x72/0x140 > [] ? truncate_inode_pages+0x15/0x20 > [] ? truncate_pagecache+0x47/0x70 > [] ? truncate_setsize+0x19/0x20 > [] ? vmtruncate+0x3e/0x70 > [] ? inode_setattr+0x30/0x60 > [] ? ext4_setattr+0x10c/0x360 [ext4] > [] ? notify_change+0x168/0x340 > [] ? __d_lookup+0xa7/0x150 > [] ? do_truncate+0x64/0xa0 > [] ? security_inode_permission+0x1f/0x30 > [] ? do_filp_open+0x829/0xd60 > [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 > [] ? alloc_fd+0x92/0x160 > [] ? do_sys_open+0x69/0x140 > [] ? sys_open+0x20/0x30 > [] ? system_call_fastpath+0x16/0x1b > ---[ end trace 2de2020846513d27 ]--- > BUG: Bad page state in process vertica pfn:6db6d9adbf6d47af > page:ffff8801dfe7ae48 flags:000000000000001f count:36561488 > mapcount:-5631 mapping:ffff8801dfe7ae60 index:ffff8801dfe7ae60 > (Tainted: G W ---------------- ) > Pid: 682, comm: vertica Tainted: G W ---------------- > 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 > Call Trace: > [] ? bad_page+0x107/0x160 > [] ? get_page_from_freelist+0x724/0x820 > [] ? xen_mc_flush+0x106/0x250 > [] ? __alloc_pages_nodemask+0x111/0x940 > [] ? __copy_from_user_inatomic+0xe/0x20 > [] ? get_futex_value_locked+0x2c/0x50 > [] ? futex_wait_setup+0x121/0x140 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? alloc_pages_vma+0x9a/0x150 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] ? handle_pte_fault+0x76b/0xb50 > [] ? futex_wake+0x10e/0x120 > [] ? __raw_callee_save_xen_pmd_val+0x11/0x1e > [] ? handle_mm_fault+0x1e4/0x2b0 > [] ? do_futex+0x100/0xb00 > [] ? __do_page_fault+0x139/0x480 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 > [] ? pvclock_clocksource_read+0x58/0xd0 > [] ? do_page_fault+0x3e/0xa0 > [] ? page_fault+0x25/0x30 > Disabling lock debugging due to kernel taint > general protection fault: 0000 [#1] SMP > last sysfs file: /sys/module/nf_conntrack/initstate > CPU 0 > Modules linked in: nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv4 iptable_filter > ip_tables autofs4 ipt_REJECT ip6t_REJECT nf_conntrack_ipv6 > nf_defrag_ipv6 xt_state nf_conntrack ip6table_filter ip6_tables ipv6 > microcode xen_netfront ext4 mbcache jbd2 xen_blkfront dm_mirror > dm_region_hash dm_log dm_mod [last unloaded: nf_defrag_ipv4] > > Pid: 910, comm: vertica Tainted: G B W ---------------- > 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 > RIP: e030:[] [] list_del+0xc/0xa0 > RSP: e02b:ffff88009f6b9a28 EFLAGS: 00010096 > RAX: 0000000000000200 RBX: dead000000100100 RCX: 0000000000012b20 > RDX: 0000000000000030 RSI: ffff8801dfe7ae70 RDI: dead000000100100 > RBP: ffff88009f6b9a38 R08: 0000000000000002 R09: 0000000000000000 > R10: 0000000000000000 R11: 0000000000000000 R12: ffff8801dfe7ae40 > R13: ffff8800000106c0 R14: 000000000000073a R15: dead0000001000d8 > FS: 00007f5c92a65700(0000) GS:ffff88002804f000(0000) knlGS:0000000000000000 > CS: e033 DS: 0000 ES: 0000 CR0: 000000008005003b > CR2: 00007f5d19d4c500 CR3: 00000001d74ea000 CR4: 0000000000002660 > DR0: 0000000000000000 DR1: 0000000000000000 DR2: 0000000000000000 > DR3: 0000000000000000 DR6: 00000000ffff0ff0 DR7: 0000000000000400 > Process vertica (pid: 910, threadinfo ffff88009f6b8000, task ffff8801d9b9e040) > Stack: > ffff88009f6b9a38 0000000000000001 ffff88009f6b9b58 ffffffff81122218 > <0> 0000000000000180 0000000000000180 ffffffff00000002 ffffffff810046b6 > <0> 000000000002be6e 00000040ffffffff 0000000000000000 ffff880000029b08 > Call Trace: > [] get_page_from_freelist+0x288/0x820 > [] ? xen_mc_flush+0x106/0x250 > [] __alloc_pages_nodemask+0x111/0x940 > [] ? enqueue_entity+0x125/0x410 > ------------[ cut here ]------------ > WARNING: at lib/list_debug.c:51 list_del+0x8d/0xa0() (Tainted: G B > W ---------------- ) > list_del corruption. next->prev should be ffffea00005faac0, but was > ffffea000204b060 > Modules linked in: nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv4 iptable_filter > ip_tables autofs4 ipt_REJECT ip6t_REJECT nf_conntrack_ipv6 > nf_defrag_ipv6 xt_state nf_conntrack ip6table_filter ip6_tables ipv6 > microcode xen_netfront ext4 mbcache jbd2 xen_blkfront dm_mirror > dm_region_hash dm_log dm_mod [last unloaded: nf_defrag_ipv4] > Pid: 25265, comm: rs:main Q:Reg Tainted: G B W ---------------- > 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 > Call Trace: > [] ? warn_slowpath_common+0x87/0xc0 > [] ? warn_slowpath_fmt+0x46/0x50 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? list_del+0x8d/0xa0 > [] ? __rmqueue+0xc3/0x490 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? get_page_from_freelist+0x598/0x820 > [] ? __alloc_pages_nodemask+0x111/0x940 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] ? kmem_cache_free+0xc4/0x2b0 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 > [] ? __wake_up+0x53/0x70 > [] ? alloc_pages_current+0xaa/0x110 > [] ? __page_cache_alloc+0x87/0x90 > [] ? __do_page_cache_readahead+0xdb/0x210 > [] ? ra_submit+0x21/0x30 > [] ? filemap_fault+0x4c3/0x500 > [] ? __do_fault+0x54/0x510 > [] ? __generic_file_aio_write+0x250/0x480 > [] ? handle_pte_fault+0xf7/0xb50 > [] ? generic_file_aio_write+0xbe/0xe0 > [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? __raw_callee_save_xen_pmd_val+0x11/0x1e > [] ? handle_mm_fault+0x1e4/0x2b0 > [] ? __do_page_fault+0x139/0x480 > [] ? fsnotify_put_event+0x49/0x70 > [] ? pvclock_clocksource_read+0x58/0xd0 > [] ? xen_clocksource_read+0x21/0x30 > [] ? xen_clocksource_get_cycles+0x9/0x10 > [] ? getnstimeofday+0x60/0xf0 > [] ? do_page_fault+0x3e/0xa0 > [] ? page_fault+0x25/0x30 > ---[ end trace 2de2020846513d28 ]--- > [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] alloc_pages_vma+0x9a/0x150 > [] handle_pte_fault+0x76b/0xb50 > [] ? wake_futex+0x40/0x60 > [] ? futex_requeue+0x310/0x890 > [] ? futex_wake+0x10e/0x120 > [] ? __raw_callee_save_xen_pmd_val+0x11/0x1e > [] handle_mm_fault+0x1e4/0x2b0 > [] ? do_futex+0x100/0xb00 > [] __do_page_fault+0x139/0x480 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 > [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 > [] ? task_sched_runtime+0x46/0xa0 > [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 > [] ? sample_to_timespec+0x38/0x50 > [] ? cpu_clock_sample+0x4c/0x70 > [] do_page_fault+0x3e/0xa0 > [] page_fault+0x25/0x30 > Code: 00 ff ff ff 89 95 fc fe ff ff e9 ab fd ff ff 4c 8b ad e8 fe ff > ff e9 db fd ff ff 90 90 90 90 55 48 89 e5 53 48 89 fb 48 83 ec 08 <48> > 8b 47 08 4c 8b 00 4c 39 c7 75 39 48 8b 03 4c 8b 40 08 4c 39 > RIP [] list_del+0xc/0xa0 > RSP > ---[ end trace 2de2020846513d29 ]--- > Kernel panic - not syncing: Fatal exception > Pid: 910, comm: vertica Tainted: G B D W ---------------- > 2.6.32-220.el6.x86_64 #1 > Call Trace: > [] ? panic+0x78/0x143 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 > [] ? oops_end+0xe4/0x100 > [] ? die+0x5b/0x90 > [] ? do_general_protection+0x152/0x160 > [] ? general_protection+0x25/0x30 > [] ? list_del+0xc/0xa0 > [] ? get_page_from_freelist+0x288/0x820 > [] ? xen_mc_flush+0x106/0x250 > [] ? __alloc_pages_nodemask+0x111/0x940 > [] ? enqueue_entity+0x125/0x410 > [] ? xen_force_evtchn_callback+0xd/0x10 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] ? alloc_pages_vma+0x9a/0x150 > [] ? handle_pte_fault+0x76b/0xb50 > [] ? wake_futex+0x40/0x60 > [] ? futex_requeue+0x310/0x890 > [] ? futex_wake+0x10e/0x120 > [] ? __raw_callee_save_xen_pmd_val+0x11/0x1e > [] ? handle_mm_fault+0x1e4/0x2b0 > [] ? do_futex+0x100/0xb00 > [] ? __do_page_fault+0x139/0x480 > [] ? check_events+0x12/0x20 > [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 > [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 > [] ? xen_restore_fl_direct_end+0x0/0x1 > [] ? _spin_unlock_irqrestore+0x1c/0x20 > [] ? task_sched_runtime+0x46/0xa0 > [] ? register_posix_clock+0x50/0xa0 > [] ? sample_to_timespec+0x38/0x50 > [] ? cpu_clock_sample+0x4c/0x70 > [] ? do_page_fault+0x3e/0xa0 > [] ? page_fault+0x25/0x30 > Xen Minimal OS! > start_info: 0x1890000(VA) > nr_pages: 0x1e0000 > shared_inf: 0xbf712000(MA) > pt_base: 0x1893000(VA) > nr_pt_frames: 0x11 > mfn_list: 0x990000(VA) > mod_start: 0x0(VA) > mod_len: 0 > flags: 0x0 > cmd_line: root=/dev/sda1 ro 4 > stack: 0x94f860-0x96f860 > MM: Init > _text: 0x0(VA) > _etext: 0x5ff6d(VA) > _erodata: 0x78000(VA) > _edata: 0x80b00(VA) > stack start: 0x94f860(VA) > _end: 0x98fe68(VA) > start_pfn: 18a7 > max_pfn: 1e0000 > Mapping memory range 0x1c00000 - 0x1e0000000 > setting 0x0-0x78000 readonly > skipped 0x1000 > MM: Initialise page allocator for 27a0000(27a0000)-1e0000000(1e0000000) > MM: done > Demand map pfns at 1e0001000-21e0001000. > Heap resides at 21e0002000-41e0002000. > Initialising timer interface > Initialising console ... done. > gnttab_table mapped at 0x1e0001000. > Initialising scheduler > Thread "Idle": pointer: 0x21e0002010, stack: 0x36f0000 > Initialising xenbus > Thread "xenstore": pointer: 0x21e00027c0, stack: 0x3700000 > Dummy main: start_info=0x96f960 > Thread "main": pointer: 0x21e0002f70, stack: 0x3710000 > "main" "root=/dev/sda1" "ro" "4" > vbd 2049 is hd0 Well I can see why xen might be suspected. Need someone that knows those parts of the kernel to make sense of that. It certainly appears something corrupts alist structure in the kernel and messes up other things as a result, and that might even be what set the taint flag. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 12 20:52:12 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:52:12 -0500 Subject: Anyone used a LittleChips LN2440SBC board? In-Reply-To: References: <4F35ECA4.7090408@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <4F38267C.2010903@ve3syb.ca> On 12-02-11 10:25 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | I have an ARM-based LN2440SBC board that is made by LittleChips. I can compile > | the 2.4 Linux for it and also have compiled the 2.6 kernel that was patched to > | support this board. I can't seem to get the board to recognize the SD memory > | card and that is hampering my ability to do more with this board. > If the board is old enough, it may not have SDHC support. I only see > SD mentioned on the spec sheet. A quick Google for "LN2440SBC sdhc" > doesn't convince me that it supports SDHC. Is you SD card SD or SDHC? Thanks, Hugh. It's worth keeping that in mind. Not sure how old is old enough. The latest date on the website for the product is 2008. The SD card I'm trying to use is only 512MB. IIRC, I have a 128MB card that I can try. If I can get it mounted I will be able to verify the device name for the SD card slot. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 12 23:04:05 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 18:04:05 -0500 Subject: An ARM-based desktop Message-ID: http://trimslice.com/web/trim-slice Some review material here: There are some interesting criticisms; I don't think they invalidate the raison d'etre of Raspberry Pi, which is to have something cheap enough to not worry about experimenting with it. But Steinar suggests that these systems are not quite suitable to be made into "general purpose" systems, and that there are some fairly significant limitations, which is likely so. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 01:12:50 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 17:12:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: An ARM-based desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1329095570.95879.YahooMailNeo@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Just give us a motherboard with ARM cpu!? I have dying AM2/DDR2 motherboard that I need to replace. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Browne > To: GTALUG > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 6:04:05 PM > Subject: [TLUG]: An ARM-based desktop > > http://trimslice.com/web/trim-slice > > Some review material here: > > > There are some interesting criticisms; I don't think they invalidate > the raison d'etre of Raspberry Pi, which is to have something cheap > enough to not worry about experimenting with it.? But Steinar suggests > that these systems are not quite suitable to be made into "general > purpose" systems, and that there are some fairly significant > limitations, which is likely so. > > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 01:32:22 2012 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:32:22 -0500 Subject: BSD Experiment Message-ID: <20120213013221.GB11140@amber> The recent BSD talk at TLUG inspired me to go back to give *BSD a try, to see if its software was quite as good as touted. Or at least better than some of the unarguably bad, half-working, slapdash coding in the Linux world. I run gentoo by choice -- our motto: "Burning processor cycles like no other distro" -- so I have gotten hands dirty with enough code to know just how bad it can get. Well, time to be broad-minded, to see what FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD have to offer. The first thing that seriously put me off was finding out that none of the *BSDs -- none! -- have anything to equal the console framebuffer in Linux. Since I spend most of my time at the console, this was a major and unhappy drawback. And I do mean the console, not some xterm. OpenBSD has nothing at all, offering at best a console resolution of 80x50 (perhaps 132x60 with lots of tweaking). Oh come now. It's 2012. FreeBSD has a new (!) driver for the console that actually allows "interactive" ways to query the video card. With that, I could get a screen resolution of almost 1024x768, which is better than nothing, but not even close to the capabilities of the 1680x1050 screen on my laptop. So. NetBSD has a driver in its testing branch (-current) that claims to work pretty much like the Linux frame- buffer. They don't put it like that, but that's clearly the model. Anyhow, that might or might not work; the NetBSD installation CD gave me kernel panics when I was trying to install NetBSD -- the first panic came early on, so I tried again without ACPI; the second one right after it erased my hard disk to repartition it, thank you very much. Oh, and no reason was given for the crash. In the end I never got NetBSD installed to see whether its claims were true. By the way, the "framebuffer" driver in NetBSD has been in the testing branch for at least three years... So I kept going with the unattractive resolution of FreeBSD since it was the best I could do. I did manage to get it installed and (more or less) running. Early on I found out you can basically choose to have it act as a binary-package distro *or* as a source-code one, but not mix-and-match. Living with gentoo I opted for the source-code version. Ahh, the fun started. Forget things like a completely primitive kernel configuration file -- I tried to set things up so that my dual-CPU system could run multiple instances of "make" at the same time in parallel. This is easy to do in gentoo and speeds up compile time considerably. In FreeBSD it seems to be a completely hit-or-miss proposition. Apparently they leave it up to the coders. And if there is even a single package in the list that won't compile in parallel, either the whole thing reverts to sequential (what a way to use SMP), or, what seems more common in my experience, the process crashes and burns in the middle with no real warning. Oh, and wait for it: the kernel *cannot* be compiled in parallel. This is silly. I've been running "make -j8" on my gentoo installation for years, and it is extremely reliable. Where is the supposed "better" code in BSD? Well, okay, I'll try life in the slow lane for a while. Here's another surprise: If FreeBSD discovers that it needs some dependency while it's trying to install some bit of software, it puts the current build on hold, goes to fetch the dependency, and builds that instead. That sounds reasonable, doesn't it? But here's the thing. It doesn't tell you in advance just what it's going to need or how much space it will take up or how many additional packages have to be fetched/built... Not too big a deal for your small packages (such as tmux or mutt which I live by). Even xorg, as big as it is, is more or less well integrated. But just *try* figuring out how long it's going to take to build firefox, or libreoffice, or how much space they are going to take up. I shudder at the mere thought to trying to install KDE or Gnome this way. Fortunately, dwm + dmenu aren't too bad. In the end I never did succeed in getting libreoffice to install (perhaps because I kept having to go to sleep while waiting and then waking up to an error message). After seven tries I managed to get Firefox to run... once... and then it insisted on recompiling it, simply stopped with an error message over installing some Java-equivalent by hand, and kept throwing errors until I gave up. I'm willing to believe the *BSDs make great servers. But they didn't make good desktops for me, even given my rather impoverished text-oriented console "desktop" I prefer to use. Maybe someone who uses BSD could tell me how to get things working correctly. As things stand, running BSD as a substitute for Linux seems like a complete bust, and not for any particular Linux-centric reasons. I have run OpenBSD on a server in the past, and it was very reliable. That seems to be the proper use of *BSD. But then again, most versions of Linux are very reliable, and they do not put you through some of the idiocies mentioned above. While pf (the equivalent of iptables) is indeed a thing of beauty, and the maniacal focus on security rewarding, in the end there aren't any compelling reasons to prefer *BSD. Or at least, so it seems to me. YMMV. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 13:34:46 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:34:46 -0500 Subject: CALL FOR ACTION: THE OPEN WEB NEEDS YOU *NOW* Message-ID: Interesting: quote: "The CSS Working Group, the W3C, the browser vendors and the Open Web need you, and I really mean you ALL. The following article is written by Daniel Glazman, co-chairman of the CSS Working Group; the part until "This must not happen" represents an official discussion of the CSS Working Group. Members of the Group behind that discussion include Adobe, Apple, Disruptive Innovations, Google, HP, Microsoft, Mozilla, Opera and the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). The second part of the article is strictly mine." http://goo.gl/W21G0 -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 15:42:09 2012 From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Doucette) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:42:09 -0500 Subject: CALL FOR ACTION: THE OPEN WEB NEEDS YOU *NOW* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my opinion, the way to stop this is to write an app for the target platform(s), and leave the website to valid, universally supported syntax. Targeting non-conforming platforms with hacks becomes such a pain in butt to maintain, it's almost surely worth the extra effort up front. That being said, I don't develop apps, nor am I a web dev for a site with a large user base. I like to think that if I was, I would tell the ie6 users and their new-age counterparts to jump in the lake. -aaron On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > Interesting: > > quote: > > "The CSS Working Group, the W3C, the browser vendors and the Open Web > need you, and I really mean you ALL. The following article is written > by Daniel Glazman, co-chairman of the CSS Working Group; the part > until "This must not happen" represents an official discussion of the > CSS Working Group. Members of the Group behind that discussion include > Adobe, Apple, Disruptive Innovations, Google, HP, Microsoft, Mozilla, > Opera and the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). The second part of the > article is strictly mine." > > http://goo.gl/W21G0 > > -- > Thomas Milne > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 15:50:38 2012 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:50:38 +0200 Subject: CALL FOR ACTION: THE OPEN WEB NEEDS YOU *NOW* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Aaron Doucette wrote: > In my opinion, the way to stop this is to write an app for the target > platform(s), and leave the website to valid, universally supported syntax. > > Targeting non-conforming platforms with hacks becomes such a pain in butt > to maintain, it's almost surely worth the extra effort up front. > > That being said, I don't develop apps, nor am I a web dev for a site with > a large user base. I like to think that if I was, I would tell the ie6 > users and their new-age counterparts to jump in the lake. > > -aaron > I think the idea of having an app. for every web site, is a step towards closing the web. The whole idea of open standards such as W3C is to make the web accessible to everyone regardless of user agent. -- Ori Idan > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Thomas Milne < > thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> Interesting: >> >> quote: >> >> "The CSS Working Group, the W3C, the browser vendors and the Open Web >> need you, and I really mean you ALL. The following article is written >> by Daniel Glazman, co-chairman of the CSS Working Group; the part >> until "This must not happen" represents an official discussion of the >> CSS Working Group. Members of the Group behind that discussion include >> Adobe, Apple, Disruptive Innovations, Google, HP, Microsoft, Mozilla, >> Opera and the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). The second part of the >> article is strictly mine." >> >> http://goo.gl/W21G0 >> >> -- >> Thomas Milne >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 15:56:44 2012 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:56:44 -0500 Subject: BSD Experiment In-Reply-To: <20120213013221.GB11140@amber> References: <20120213013221.GB11140@amber> Message-ID: <20120213155644.GY18685@adb.ca> Peter King wrote: > ... Well, time to be broad-minded, to > see what FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD have to offer. > > The first thing that seriously put me off was finding > out that none of the *BSDs -- none! -- have anything to > equal the console framebuffer in Linux. ... To be fair, there are a bunch of differentiating features, and strategic choice of one of them can put any of several projects out front. ZFS is still a sore point in Linux, with early attempts to bring it in either relying (slowly!) on FUSE or on recent attempts to bridge the GPL and CDDL worlds. FreeBSD is probably a better choice for a fileserver there, though OpenSolaris via its recent Illumos/OpenIndiana fork would be strong choices to get closer to the headwaters of that. But competition is good, and encourages each group to stay on its toes and push the others along. Linux wouldn't have grown as fast as it did without Unix to first provide a model to try to match in the early years and then become an opposing player to outplay. And the others have been playing catch-up to Linux a lot! Too, we tend to learn the shortcomings best in what we're actually using, and tend to notice bits of grass that look greener on the other side of the fence. I may poke at the others, but this keyboard is plugged into a Linux box. Meanwhile, my major experience of console framebuffer involved a Ubuntu install that didn't make it as far as X, an older CRT that wasn't as bright as it had been, the setting sun in the window behind it, and my eyes not being teenaged anymore either, and *just* being able to read the wee tiny letters on the screen. That was painful. 80x24 and I have a long history together and we're used to each other now, though I spend most of my time in front of a proper X desktop. > I'm willing to believe the *BSDs make great servers. But > they didn't make good desktops for me, ... Linux gets a lot more attention on the desktop front, and I'm not sure I'd want to try to run Free/Open/Net BSD there either. But any major mall will have a shrine to OSX-flavoured BSD on the shiny white desktop and on the iPhone that goes with that. > I have run OpenBSD on a server in the past, and it was very > reliable. That seems to be the proper use of *BSD. But then > again, most versions of Linux are very reliable, and they do > not put you through some of the idiocies mentioned above. > While pf (the equivalent of iptables) is indeed a thing of > beauty, and the maniacal focus on security rewarding, in the > end there aren't any compelling reasons to prefer *BSD. Or > at least, so it seems to me. YMMV. Last time I ran an OpenBSD server, I was surprised at how primitive the RAID support was: they seem *very* oriented toward defending against malicious threats to your data over the wire but much less toward the routine natural threat of a drive crashing. There's the chance that a project like that is worth supporting more as a concept, as someone carrying the security torch, than as something you'd actually run on your own hardware. The example they set, and the security code and patches they offer, gets reflected in everyone else having to pull their socks up and make sure their own level of security doesn't send people running to OpenBSD. And this in turn benefits your distro of choice, so you don't have to give up security to get the rest of the features you want. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 16:06:48 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:06:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: CALL FOR ACTION: THE OPEN WEB NEEDS YOU *NOW* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1329149208.14987.YahooMailNeo@web113413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Just get rid of CSS, and rename the new standard as HTML6. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Thomas Milne > To: tlug > Cc: > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 8:34:46 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: CALL FOR ACTION: THE OPEN WEB NEEDS YOU *NOW* > > Interesting: > > quote: > > "The CSS Working Group, the W3C, the browser vendors and the Open Web > need you, and I really mean you ALL. The following article is written > by Daniel Glazman, co-chairman of the CSS Working Group; the part > until "This must not happen" represents an official discussion of the > CSS Working Group. Members of the Group behind that discussion include > Adobe, Apple, Disruptive Innovations, Google, HP, Microsoft, Mozilla, > Opera and the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). The second part of the > article is strictly mine." > > http://goo.gl/W21G0 > > -- > Thomas Milne > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 16:53:57 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:53:57 -0500 Subject: Kernel panic reading - Can you tell what triggered it? In-Reply-To: <20120212174451.GG27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120212174451.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Morning > > Well I can see why xen might be suspected. ?Need someone that knows > those parts of the kernel to make sense of that. ?It certainly appears > something corrupts alist structure in the kernel and messes up other > things as a result, and that might even be what set the taint flag. > > -- > Len Sorensen Thanks guys. Really appreciate your suggestions William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 17:20:20 2012 From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Doucette) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:20:20 -0500 Subject: CALL FOR ACTION: THE OPEN WEB NEEDS YOU *NOW* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Then the standards need to provide incentive to use them correctly, starting with all user agents providing the same support. However, content creators have little control over that. -aaron On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Ori Idan wrote: > > I think the idea of having an app. for every web site, is a step towards > closing the web. The whole idea of open standards such as W3C is to make > the web accessible to everyone regardless of user agent. > > -- > Ori Idan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 22:30:50 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:30:50 -0500 Subject: OT: ASUS extended warranty? Message-ID: <4F398F1A.3090506@utoronto.ca> Anyone familiar with ASUS's extended warranty? How does one purchase it? I'm planning on purchasing a notebook from them, but the 1 year warranty is insufficient given how prone notebooks are to random failures compared to the replacement cost (in my experience anyway). Is their warranty service any good if one needs to make use of it? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 22:34:01 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:34:01 -0500 Subject: OT: ASUS extended warranty? In-Reply-To: <4F398F1A.3090506-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F398F1A.3090506@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20120213223401.GH27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 05:30:50PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Anyone familiar with ASUS's extended warranty? How does one purchase it? > I'm planning on purchasing a notebook from them, but the 1 year warranty > is insufficient given how prone notebooks are to random failures > compared to the replacement cost (in my experience anyway). No idea. > Is their warranty service any good if one needs to make use of it? Yes. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 22:39:05 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:39:05 -0500 Subject: OT: ASUS extended warranty? In-Reply-To: <4F398F1A.3090506-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F398F1A.3090506@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Anyone familiar with ASUS's extended warranty? How does one purchase it? > I'm planning on purchasing a notebook from them, but the 1 year warranty > is insufficient given how prone notebooks are to random failures > compared to the replacement cost (in my experience anyway). > > Is their warranty service any good if one needs to make use of it? The only time I have had to deal with Asus warranty service was for a motherboard. I found them pleasant, and professional but in the end not very helpful. The problem that I crossed paths with was a BIOS bug (yes, they do exist, and I crossed paths with a BIOS bug that would not impact 99.9%+ of users, but made the motherboard useless for my intended purpose...). Colin. > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 23:23:42 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:23:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: ASUS extended warranty? In-Reply-To: <4F398F1A.3090506-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F398F1A.3090506@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1329175422.78636.YahooMailNeo@web113414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Extended warranty is generally good idea, because this thing tends to get very slippery about 3 months before warranty term. ;-) -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jamon Camisso > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 5:30:50 PM > Subject: [TLUG]: OT: ASUS extended warranty? > > Anyone familiar with ASUS's extended warranty? How does one purchase it? > I'm planning on purchasing a notebook from them, but the 1 year warranty > is insufficient given how prone notebooks are to random failures > compared to the replacement cost (in my experience anyway). > > Is their warranty service any good if one needs to make use of it? > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 13 23:39:06 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:39:06 -0500 Subject: OT: ASUS extended warranty? In-Reply-To: <1329175422.78636.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <4F398F1A.3090506@utoronto.ca> <1329175422.78636.YahooMailNeo@web113414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F399F1A.1010308@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > Extended warranty is generally good idea, because this thing tends > to get very slippery about 3 months before warranty term.;-) > Actually, with electronic gear, extended warranties tend to be a waste of money. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From voidpointer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 14 01:32:14 2012 From: voidpointer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Nicolaides) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:32:14 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: References: <4F350A5D.7030806@akber.net> Message-ID: What about a lighter-weight systray-type app instead of the full on gnome-panel? Something like stalonetray? http://stalonetray.sourceforge.net/ Cheers, Jason On 10 February 2012 15:11, Giles Orr wrote: > On 10 February 2012 13:04, Christopher Browne wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > >> Interesting point for anyone who's considering trying it: the client > >> is a big fat install including Mono and some of Gnome (clearly you are > >> expected by the developer(s?) to have ALL of Gnome), but the server is > >> pure Git. Which also means A) revision control, and B) easy recovery > >> of your data should the client go pear-shaped for some reason. > > > > The code base is written in Mono, so the Mono involvement should come > > as not too much of a surprise. It amounts to a "slightly more > > specified environment than Java," to my mind, with all that's > > potentially good and bad about that. > > > > The use of SCM underneath is a good thing; I like the way you're > > thinking about that. > > > >> As a follow-up to my previous message, I've emailed the developer > >> about accessing the configuration window when you're not a Gnome user. > >> No response yet, but it's only been about 12 hours. > > > > https://github.com/hbons/SparkleShare/issues/572 > > > > From that, I have been able to infer that you need some X client that > > can serve as a "notification area." > > > > I observe, in searching for that, that the Ubuntu folk have decided > > that the Notification Area isn't a good thing, and intend its removal. > > I tend to > > agree with the reasoning that I see, and SparkleShare seems consistent > > as a case of something that isn't properly a "notification" that is > > getting stowed in the Notification Area because it seemed like a > > convenient idea at the time. > > > > FYI, if I install gnome-panel (which draws in something of a "cast of > > dozens" of additional packages, on Debian), and run it, a sliver of > > screen gets stolen from Stumpwm, an icon for SparkleShare appears, and > > I can indeed take the additional steps to add a "Hosted Project." I > > set up access to one of my repos on GitHub, which seems like a > > reasonably harmless thing to add, initially. SparkleShare seems > > unlikely to trash the repo, and that's an eminently repairable action. > > > > Adding the project works. What doesn't work quite so much is the > > following step of getting a "link code" from the "SparkleShare > > Dashboard," which doesn't appear to have a place for me to link to. > > > > I think I'll leave that for now; if someone else takes interest to > > take it another step down the road, that's great. > > > > The interesting bit of outcome is that I feel OK, for now, about > > adding the sliver of gnome-panel to my screen. That's playing OK with > > stumpwm, not interfering in any way I can see. > > I got a reply from the developer, and that was the "solution" he > offered (ie. run gnome-panel). I've always avoided installing Gnome, > so I'm a little disappointed. But good to hear that it (mostly) > works. > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 14 02:22:36 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 21:22:36 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: References: <4F350A5D.7030806@akber.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Jason Nicolaides wrote: > What about a lighter-weight systray-type app instead of the full on > gnome-panel? ?Something like stalonetray? > > http://stalonetray.sourceforge.net/ Oh, excellent, thanks ever so much for pointing that out. On Debian, it depends solely on libc, libx11, and libxpm4, which are all sufficiently broadly used that they're already around. stalonetray evidently stands for "standalone tray," which is not ridiculously anti-intuitive, but it was not notably obvious that such a thing existed :-(. [Mussing around for a bit...] *Very* interesting. I hooked this up to one of my repos on GitHub. The Mono daemon sits around watching the local copy in ~/SparkleShare. Any time a process alters files within a project, it: a) invokes "git add --all" b) figures out what was changed, c) runs "git commit" to indicate the files altered, then d) git push origin master to push the change over to the source Git repo. It is extremely "commit-happy"... As a bit of "torture", I set up a series of processes to create some files: 1. create some files for i in `seq 111`; echo "test" > $i; sleep 3; done & 2. remove some files for i in `seq 111`; rm $i; sleep 4; done & And I set a few instances of this running in ~/SparkleShare/oh-my-zsh/messing-around You can actually see the effects here: https://github.com/cbbrowne/oh-my-zsh/commits/master It's a rubbish little test, but I don't object to people seeing it :-). Boy, that's commit-happy, but it seems to do what I'd fully expect it to do. The mono process is pretty lardful: VIRT = 249m RES = 46m I wonder how the interaction takes place if you have any conflicts in cases where: a) There are two instances of SparkleShare on two hosts, and users are introducing conflicting changes b) Someone introduces different changes via merging something in from another Git repo. I'm content to leave those as unknowns for now. In this example, everything's pretty public, because by default, "free" GitHub accounts are only available for public-facing projects. It takes jumping through *some* additional hoops to get a Git server running that is suitably private to store private information. SparkleShare clearly does work, at some level, and represents a plausible experiment for a DropBox alternative. I'm not sure how far it is from being treated as a realistic alternative. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 14 02:38:49 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:38:49 -0700 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: References: <4F350A5D.7030806@akber.net> Message-ID: On 2012-02-13, at 19:22, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Jason Nicolaides wrote: >> What about a lighter-weight systray-type app instead of the full on >> gnome-panel? Something like stalonetray? >> >> http://stalonetray.sourceforge.net/ > > stalonetray evidently stands for "standalone tray," which is not > ridiculously anti-intuitive ... It's also where Sly puts his drinks. (I'll get my coat) Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 14 03:47:31 2012 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:47:31 -0500 Subject: CALL FOR ACTION: THE OPEN WEB NEEDS YOU *NOW* In-Reply-To: <1329149208.14987.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOH6X00i2u5GFvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1329149208.14987.YahooMailNeo@web113413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120213224731.7f1e9974.hgibson@eol.ca> On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:06:48 -0800 (PST) William Park wrote: > Just get rid of CSS, and rename the new standard as HTML6. > -- > William William, No, CSS is an excellent idea. Proprietary extensions are what is bad. Perhaps it is time to update the "The HTML Terrorist's Handbook" http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%22%20the%20html%20terrorist's%20handbook%22&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fronczek.org%2Fmartin%2Fcoden%2FThe%2520HTML%2520Terrorist's%2520Handbook.htm&ei=sNc5T4GMPI3cggf-nMWZCw&usg=AFQjCNHNCib5O28tOVJltQDTbC0IqDdqng This goes back to the days when Netscape was evil. It badly needs work. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 14 04:03:09 2012 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 23:03:09 -0500 Subject: SparkleShare In-Reply-To: References: <4F350A5D.7030806@akber.net> Message-ID: <20120213230309.415c55d8.hgibson@eol.ca> On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:32:14 -0500 Jason Nicolaides wrote: > What about a lighter-weight systray-type app instead of the full on > gnome-panel? Something like stalonetray? > > http://stalonetray.sourceforge.net/ > > Cheers, > Jason Jason, I use stalonetray to run Google toolbar apps on FVWM. My network tool, whatever it is, uses it. Sylpheed and Opera use this. Other browsers do not use it. I don't know about other email tools. If you are bailing out of Gnome_3, try XFCE. I love FVWM because I have been configuring it since 1996. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 14 16:09:31 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:09:31 -0500 Subject: CALL FOR ACTION: THE OPEN WEB NEEDS YOU *NOW* In-Reply-To: <20120213224731.7f1e9974.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1329149208.14987.YahooMailNeo@web113413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120213224731.7f1e9974.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4F3A873B.6030800@the-wire.com> On 02/13/2012 10:47 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:06:48 -0800 (PST) > William Park wrote: > >> Just get rid of CSS, and rename the new standard as HTML6. >> -- >> William > William, > > No, CSS is an excellent idea. Proprietary extensions are what is bad. > > Perhaps it is time to update the "The HTML Terrorist's Handbook" > > http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%22%20the%20html%20terrorist's%20handbook%22&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fronczek.org%2Fmartin%2Fcoden%2FThe%2520HTML%2520Terrorist's%2520Handbook.htm&ei=sNc5T4GMPI3cggf-nMWZCw&usg=AFQjCNHNCib5O28tOVJltQDTbC0IqDdqng > > This goes back to the days when Netscape was evil. It badly needs work. Ditto the Dr.Jekyll side . It's really pretty good dealing with authorial style. On the other hand, when it says: "we will no doubt continue to print out things. It's hard to curl up with a notebook at night, especially if it has a coaxial cable jutting out the back of it." (yes children, once upon a time...) "your readers will have an average of only 14,400 bits of information per second sent to them. This is not a large number" (coexisting with TV/IP is getting us there -- but not yet) "Another way to manage URLs is to only publicize a few well-known entry points to your Web: for example, the top view, or table of contents page, " (then came Google) it's awesomely out of date. And only since 1995. Wow! Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From voidpointer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 14 16:41:40 2012 From: voidpointer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Nicolaides) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:41:40 -0500 Subject: WMs/DEs (was SparkleShare) Message-ID: Hello Howard, I wasn't the one that was enquiring into stalonetray, I was suggesting it to the others. No big whoop. On 13 February 2012 23:03, Howard Gibson wrote: > I use stalonetray to run Google toolbar apps on FVWM. > It's funny you mention Fvwm because that's how I found out about stalonetray. Up until recently I was using Fvwm as my primary window manager and I was looking for a systray app that docks easily into FvwmButtons. Eventually I decided to run apps that didn't require a notification area or I could turn off their systray icons and just use Iconified windows that were sticky. It worked well. Then I caught the, "I need to change my working environment!" bug and switched to KDE. Go figure. > If you are bailing out of Gnome_3, try XFCE. Xfce is a fantastic desktop environment. I agree with you that Xfce is an excellent replacement for GNOME3. > I love FVWM because I have been configuring it since 1996. When I started my second year of university I got access to the "Linux Lab". Don't ask me what distribution it was I don't remember, it was 1996 as well. The default window manager was Fvwm with that hideous pink title bar. That was the first time I ever used any UNIX(-like) OS much less Linux. Fond memories. That was a bit of a ramble. Sorry about that. Cheers, Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 15 00:39:43 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 19:39:43 -0500 Subject: The death of the Linux distro Message-ID: http://goo.gl/67a21 -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 15 00:55:33 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 19:55:33 -0500 Subject: The death of the Linux distro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F3B0285.3020400@rogers.com> On 12-02-14 07:39 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > http://goo.gl/67a21 > I just want a GUI that leaves the Application's menu, in the application window. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 15 14:30:56 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 09:30:56 -0500 Subject: The death of the Linux distro In-Reply-To: <4F3B0285.3020400-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F3B0285.3020400@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120215143056.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 07:55:33PM -0500, Stephen wrote: > I just want a GUI that leaves the Application's menu, in the > application window. After all Mac OS and Amiga OS both got it completely wrong. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 15 17:10:32 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:10:32 -0500 Subject: The death of the Linux distro In-Reply-To: <20120215143056.GI27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F3B0285.3020400@rogers.com> <20120215143056.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > After all Mac OS and Amiga OS both got it completely wrong. :) I always had a sneaking admiration for the way that Acorn RiscOS did it, with the menu popping up vertically on a right click. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 15 17:29:05 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:29:05 -0500 Subject: The death of the Linux distro In-Reply-To: References: <4F3B0285.3020400@rogers.com> <20120215143056.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F3BEB61.9080902@the-wire.com> On 02/15/2012 12:10 PM, Stewart Russell wrote: > I always had a sneaking admiration for the way that Acorn RiscOS did > it, with the menu popping up vertically on a right click. That behavior in Firefox has been causing me tons of misery over the last few week, and I've only just now figured out why. I'll right-click on an element, expecting to get a pop-up menu and scroll up to 'Open Link in New Tab'. Usually that's what I get. But if the pop-up won't quite fit vertically above the point of click, it gets put a little lower; then the 'Inspect Element with Firebug' falls over the point of click, and that's the menu entry that gets selected -- no recourse. Somehow reminds me of the day back in the old days, when the compile-and-run environment left a 9 in my uninitialized variable, where the program took 9 to mean terminate. Not the same, but sure feels the same. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 16:25:24 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 11:25:24 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package Message-ID: Hi, I have been able to package software into rpm in the past but have not had the opportunity to package source code into deb package format till this morning. I am wondering if anybody here has forward a reliable documentation to assist My hope is to get apache version 2.2.22 that I can use to update the distribution provided apache, which is a little behind. I couple of things I have noticed. On RedHat, I usually download a source RPM and then uses the source spec file as a starting point. I am having problem finding an equivalent file do the deb package. I believe its called control file on Debian based system. Anyone done this before and would know where I could locate it? Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 16:37:26 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 11:37:26 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120216163726.GJ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:25:24AM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > I have been able to package software into rpm in the past but have not > had the opportunity to package source code into deb package format > till this morning. I am wondering if anybody here has forward a > reliable documentation to assist > > My hope is to get apache version 2.2.22 that I can use to update the > distribution provided apache, which is a little behind. I couple of > things I have noticed. > > On RedHat, I usually download a source RPM and then uses the source > spec file as a starting point. I am having problem finding an > equivalent file do the deb package. I believe its called control file > on Debian based system. > > Anyone done this before and would know where I could locate it? Look for the .orig.tar.gz, .diff.gz and .dsc files. That's a debian source package. Newer packages in version 3 format might have a .debian.tar.gz instead of the diff.gz file. So for apache look at: http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apache2/ They even have 2.2.22 packages there already. http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apache2/apache2_2.2.22-1.dsc http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apache2/apache2_2.2.22-1.debian.tar.gz http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apache2/apache2_2.2.22.orig.tar.gz Download those, run dpkg-source -x apache2_2.2.22-1.dsc, and you will have one ready to build debian source directory. dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b generally does it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 16:58:58 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 11:58:58 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: <20120216163726.GJ27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120216163726.GJ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120216165858.GK27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:37:26AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Look for the .orig.tar.gz, .diff.gz and .dsc files. That's a debian > source package. Newer packages in version 3 format might have a > .debian.tar.gz instead of the diff.gz file. > > So for apache look at: > > http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apache2/ > > They even have 2.2.22 packages there already. > > http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apache2/apache2_2.2.22-1.dsc > http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apache2/apache2_2.2.22-1.debian.tar.gz > http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apache2/apache2_2.2.22.orig.tar.gz > > Download those, run dpkg-source -x apache2_2.2.22-1.dsc, and you will > have one ready to build debian source directory. > > dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b generally does it. It appears that you can build that package on squeeze, if you install debhelper from squeeze-backports. It fails to build in a weird way using debhelper 8.0.0 from squeeze, even though it doesn't list a higher debhelper version as a requirement. Also a 'set -e \' in the debian/rules seems like it needs to be 'set -e; \' on some shells. Not sure how that ever worked. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 17:29:45 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:29:45 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:25 AM, William Muriithi wrote: > I have been able to package software into rpm in the past but have not > had the opportunity to package source code into deb package format > till this morning. I am wondering if anybody here has forward a > reliable documentation to assist > > My hope is to get apache version 2.2.22 that I can use to update the > distribution provided apache, which is a little behind. ?I couple of > things I have noticed. Lennart has described a very particular result suitable for that particular version of Apache; what he describes seems pretty ideal, in view that the packaging work has already been done by others. > On RedHat, I usually download a source RPM and then uses the source > spec file as a starting point. ?I am having problem finding an > equivalent file do the deb package. ?I believe its called control file > on Debian based system. > > Anyone done this before and would know where I could locate it? Under the circumstances, Lennart has described a good "short-circuit" to let you get your result without much effort. I'll point out the documentation for building new Debian packages. http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ The structure is a bit more complicated than just having a "control" file. http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/dreq.en.html There can be considerably more complications, if need be: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/dother.en.html More complications are needful because it's not merely about "building a package," it's about integrating a package into a distribution. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 17:47:38 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:47:38 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lennart/Christopher, Thanks for the information. Really appreciated > > Under the circumstances, Lennart has described a good "short-circuit" > to let you get your result without much effort. I like the short cuts, I will be trying Lennart suggestion first. > > I'll point out the documentation for building new Debian packages. > ? http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ > > The structure is a bit more complicated than just having a "control" file. > ? http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/dreq.en.html > > There can be considerably more complications, if need be: > ? http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/dother.en.html > > More complications are needful because it's not merely about "building > a package," it's about integrating a package into a distribution. I know, thats why I was looking for the current control file in use with the distribution as starting one from scratch would be too involving. > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Thanks again guys William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andmalc-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 19:30:03 2012 From: andmalc-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:30:03 -0500 Subject: Rogers One Number on Linux? Message-ID: Rogers One Number requires a soft phone that's available only in Windows & Mac versions. I installed the Windows client under Crossover Linux on Debian. It crashes on startup with a pluginmanager.exe error. Anyone know of a tricky way to use One Number without the official client? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 19:39:04 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:39:04 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120216193904.GL27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:47:38PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > I know, thats why I was looking for the current control file in use > with the distribution as starting one from scratch would be too > involving. For well behaved source code, debhelper 7+ makes life very easy. debian/rules can essentially be just: #!/usr/bin/make -f %: dh $@ This is assuming the source code is normal and well behaved. debian/control needs to list the source package info and at least one binary package name (architecture specific or not as needed). debian/changelog (most conviniently handled using the dch command in devscripts) contains the version info and changelog entries for each version. dh_make can generate a basic template package, although I find it rather dated in the methods it uses. The apache2 package is an example of a very complex build that takes good advantage of the debhelper 7+ features by letting the defaults work when possible and only doing overrides on the steps that have to be handled unusually (Not sure if that is a word, but I think it should be). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 19:47:05 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:47:05 -0500 Subject: Archives of GTALUG list Message-ID: One question brought up at the meeting on Tuesday where the answer seemed to surprise a lot of people was, "where is there an archive of this mailing list?" Some people were rather surprised that the answer was, "yes, it *is* archived!" The archive may be found here: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug Note that it offers a number of feeds: a) Web interface (and not just one; there are several) b) RSS feed c) NNTP feed Note that this has been documented for quite a long time. http://gtalug.org/wiki/TLUG_Mailing_List_FAQ If someone was particularly keen on pulling their own local archive of this, that wouldn't be too hard to do. http://gmane.org/export.php Someone with suitable "Round Tuits" might even find it an entertaining idea to archive this in the form of a Git repository. I have done that with the mailing lists for the Slony project, and have set up scripts that pull archives daily, and push them into a Git repository at GitHub. Those scripts are specifically for Mailman, but the approach could certainly be adapted to other ways of getting at mail archives. My code, which runs every day, may be found here: https://github.com/cbbrowne/slony-backups/tree/master/scripts -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 19:49:47 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:49:47 -0500 Subject: Archives of GTALUG list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120216194947.GM27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 02:47:05PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > One question brought up at the meeting on Tuesday where the answer > seemed to surprise a lot of people was, "where is there an archive of > this mailing list?" > > Some people were rather surprised that the answer was, "yes, it *is* archived!" > > The archive may be found here: > http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug > > Note that it offers a number of feeds: > a) Web interface (and not just one; there are several) > b) RSS feed > c) NNTP feed > > Note that this has been documented for quite a long time. > http://gtalug.org/wiki/TLUG_Mailing_List_FAQ > > If someone was particularly keen on pulling their own local archive of > this, that wouldn't be too hard to do. > http://gmane.org/export.php > > Someone with suitable "Round Tuits" might even find it an entertaining > idea to archive this in the form of a Git repository. I have done > that with the mailing lists for the Slony project, and have set up > scripts that pull archives daily, and push them into a Git repository > at GitHub. Those scripts are specifically for Mailman, but the > approach could certainly be adapted to other ways of getting at mail > archives. > > My code, which runs every day, may be found here: > https://github.com/cbbrowne/slony-backups/tree/master/scripts How exactly is git useful for storing email? I just can't picture that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 20:23:09 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 15:23:09 -0500 Subject: Archives of GTALUG list In-Reply-To: <20120216194947.GM27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120216194947.GM27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > How exactly is git useful for storing email? ?I just can't picture that. I copy the mail (in the form, effectively, of a bunch of mbox files, one per month) into the repository, commit it, and push it out to GitHub. If: a) The server that slony.info is on dies, or b) I become evil, or c) Someone corrupts the files on slony.info In principle, *anyone* could do a "git clone" against the GitHub repo and recreate the mailing list server. Also, consider the scenario where we discover that something bad happened on Jan 15th, and the mail between the 15th and the 20th was somehow corrupted, versioning would allow seeing how things looked on the 15th, before the problem occurred. Git isn't particularly more special as an "email storage" tool than is, say, ext4. Except that you get, "for free" (once you pay some configuration and such costs for using it) all the rather useful things about tracking versions and having the ability to duplicate repository history very easily. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 16 20:31:38 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 15:31:38 -0500 Subject: Archives of GTALUG list In-Reply-To: <20120216194947.GM27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120216194947.GM27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > How exactly is git useful for storing email? ?I just can't picture that. Here's a different somewhat smart alecy answer to this: http://tychoish.com/rhizome/git-mail/ "So basically, what I'm doing is, sorting the email on the server in a git repository, and then pushing and pulling to that as needed, or just working their over ssh." I explained "So what you're saying, is that you've basically reinvented IMAP," Chris said. "Yeah, pretty much, except that this works," I said. "If you say so." The set of things that tycho describes seem interesting and reasonably useful. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 17 03:57:27 2012 From: avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Volkov) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 22:57:27 -0500 Subject: Archives of GTALUG list In-Reply-To: References: <20120216194947.GM27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F3DD027.20207@gmail.com> I love git and am a very silly person, so I created a mirror of tlug list on github. I also wrote file that could be run as a cron job to update mailing list contents periodically, and a bash wrapper that commits changes to github. I ran the thing and the resulting commit was around 37MB which is in absolute terms somewhat worse than bzip2-compressed text file of 29.3 MB. Uncompressed file size is 182.4MB. https://github.com/avolkov/TLUG-Gmane-backup One unfortunate thing, is that github treats txt file that contains mailing list content as a blob and doesn't display it. Alex. On 16/02/12 03:23 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> How exactly is git useful for storing email? I just can't picture that. > I copy the mail (in the form, effectively, of a bunch of mbox files, > one per month) into the repository, commit it, and push it out to > GitHub. > > If: > a) The server that slony.info is on dies, or > b) I become evil, or > c) Someone corrupts the files on slony.info > > In principle, *anyone* could do a "git clone" against the GitHub repo > and recreate the mailing list server. > > Also, consider the scenario where we discover that something bad > happened on Jan 15th, and the mail between the 15th and the 20th was > somehow corrupted, versioning would allow seeing how things looked on > the 15th, before the problem occurred. > > Git isn't particularly more special as an "email storage" tool than > is, say, ext4. Except that you get, "for free" (once you pay some > configuration and such costs for using it) all the rather useful > things about tracking versions and having the ability to duplicate > repository history very easily. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 14:19:17 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:19:17 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. Message-ID: I trust most of the folks here have been following the story of the Raspberry Pi, a $35 (or $25 depending on model) Linux running computer designed in the UK. Here is a short video about what Seneca College is doing about the Raspberry Pi : http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/676 Bottom line, Seneca College will have a release of Fedora Linux available for download to a 2+ GB SD memory card when the Raspberry Pi starts shipping (hopefully within a week). There will be room for improvement with the initial Fedora release that Seneca College does, like the initial release will NOT take advantage of the video graphics acceleration hardware on the Raspberry Pi (ie: video will work, but slowly (a possible issue for me, as the first job I want to see a Raspberry Pi in is video related)). Still, imperfect as the initial release may be, this is great news as it means the Raspberry Pi will at launch will have enough software to get up and at least crawling. Also, nice to see a greater Toronto area institution getting some very positive PR in the open source community. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 15:50:40 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 07:50:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1329839440.9245.YahooMailNeo@web113410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> You gotta give us a demo some time. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Colin McGregor > To: tlug > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:19:17 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. > > I trust most of the folks here have been following the story of the > Raspberry Pi, a $35 (or $25 depending on model) Linux running computer > designed in the UK. Here is a short video about what Seneca College is > doing about the Raspberry Pi : > > http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/676 > > Bottom line, Seneca College will have a release of Fedora Linux > available for download to a 2+ GB SD memory card when the Raspberry Pi > starts shipping (hopefully within a week). There will be room for > improvement with the initial Fedora release that Seneca College does, > like the initial release will NOT take advantage of the video graphics > acceleration hardware on the Raspberry Pi (ie:? video will work, but > slowly (a possible issue for me, as the first job I want to see a > Raspberry Pi in is video related)). > > Still, imperfect as the initial release may be, this is great news as > it means the Raspberry Pi will at launch will have enough software to > get up and at least crawling. Also, nice to see a greater Toronto area > institution getting some very positive PR in the open source > community. > > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 16:01:44 2012 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:01:44 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120221160143.GJ18685@adb.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: > I trust most of the folks here have been following the story of the > Raspberry Pi, a $35 (or $25 depending on model) Linux running computer > designed in the UK. ... Apropos that, you'd at one point mentioned the possibility of a group buy, to save on shipping costs from the UK. Was that still happening, or should I put ordering one directly somewhere down my todo list? It does seem like the next logical thing to play with, after the Arduino. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 16:43:23 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: <20120221160143.GJ18685-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20120221160143.GJ18685@adb.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Anthony de Boer wrote: > Colin McGregor wrote: >> I trust most of the folks here have been following the story of the >> Raspberry Pi, a $35 (or $25 depending on model) Linux running computer >> designed in the UK. ... > > Apropos that, you'd at one point mentioned the possibility of a group > buy, to save on shipping costs from the UK. ?Was that still happening, > or should I put ordering one directly somewhere down my todo list? Scott Sullivan has on more than one occasion noted that he was planning to organize a group Raspberry Pi purchase. So, I'll let Scott note his plans in that regard, but, yes, this is the sort of thing that would be of real interest to me. As it is, the first production run of Raspberry Pi machines, currently in progress, is 10,000 machines. Given the level of interest that seems to be surrounding the Raspberry Pi, I expect that first run of machines (which will all be the $35 model B (the $25 model A may not start mass production for a few months)) will sell out in hours (maybe in minutes). So, likely any group purchase will have to wait until a second run of machines (hopefully by the end of March)... > It does seem like the next logical thing to play with, after the > Arduino. Yes, in some ways the Raspberry Pi does kind of/sort of seem like an Arduino on steroids... > -- > Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 17:24:10 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:24:10 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: <20120216193904.GL27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120216193904.GL27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Hi, I have a control file that looks like as below: Notice "Build-Depends" do not list debhelper 8 as a requirement? However, when I run dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b, I get an error that I have an unmet dependency which happen to be debhelper version 8. dpkg-source -x apache2_2.2.22-1ubuntu1.dsc do runs fine. Where does dpkg-buildpackage get this information? Error message: dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: debhelper (>= 8) libaprutil1-dev (>= 1.3.4) libapr1-dev libpcre3-dev libssl-dev (>= 0.9.8m) sharutils libcap-dev autoconf hardening-wrapper Control file: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Format: 3.0 (quilt) Source: apache2 Binary: apache2.2-common, apache2.2-bin, apache2-mpm-worker, apache2-mpm-prefork, apache2-mpm-event, apache2-mpm-itk, apache2-utils, apache2-suexec, apache2-suexec-custom, apache2, apache2-doc, apache2-prefork-dev, apache2-threaded-dev, apache2-dbg Architecture: any all Version: 2.2.22-1ubuntu1 Maintainer: Ubuntu Developers Uploaders: Stefan Fritsch , Steinar H. Gunderson , Arno T?ll Homepage: http://httpd.apache.org/ Standards-Version: 3.9.2 Vcs-Bzr: http://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apache2 Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 7.4.3), dpatch, lsb-release, libaprutil1-dev (>= 1.3.4), libapr1-dev (>= 1.2.7-6), openssl, libpcre3-dev, mawk, zlib1g-dev, libssl-dev, sharutils, libcap-dev [!kfreebsd-i386 !kfreebsd-amd64 !hurd-i386], autoconf, hardening-wrapper Build-Conflicts: autoconf2.13 Package-List: apache2 deb httpd optional apache2-dbg deb debug extra apache2-doc deb doc optional apache2-mpm-event deb httpd optional apache2-mpm-itk deb httpd extra apache2-mpm-prefork deb httpd optional apache2-mpm-worker deb httpd optional apache2-prefork-dev deb httpd extra apache2-suexec deb httpd optional apache2-suexec-custom deb httpd extra apache2-threaded-dev deb httpd extra apache2-utils deb httpd optional apache2.2-bin deb httpd optional apache2.2-common deb httpd optional Regards, William On 16 February 2012 14:39, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:47:38PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: >> I know, thats why I was looking for the current control file in use >> with the distribution as starting one from scratch would be too >> involving. > > For well behaved source code, debhelper 7+ makes life very easy. > > debian/rules can essentially be just: > > #!/usr/bin/make -f > %: > ? ? ? ?dh $@ > > This is assuming the source code is normal and well behaved. > > debian/control needs to list the source package info and at least one > binary package name (architecture specific or not as needed). > > debian/changelog (most conviniently handled using the dch command in > devscripts) contains the version info and changelog entries for each > version. > > dh_make can generate a basic template package, although I find it rather > dated in the methods it uses. > > The apache2 package is an example of a very complex build that takes > good advantage of the debhelper 7+ features by letting the defaults > work when possible and only doing overrides on the steps that have to > be handled unusually (Not sure if that is a word, but I think it > should be). > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 17:35:24 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:35:24 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: References: <20120221160143.GJ18685@adb.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Scott Sullivan has on more than one occasion noted that > he was planning to organize a group Raspberry Pi purchase. So, I'll > let Scott note his plans in that regard, but, yes, this is the sort of > thing that would be of real interest to me. > > As it is, the first production run of Raspberry Pi machines, currently > in progress, is 10,000 machines. Given the level of interest that > seems to be surrounding the Raspberry Pi, I expect that first run of > machines (which will all be the $35 model B (the $25 model A may not > start mass production for a few months)) will sell out in hours (maybe > in minutes). So, likely any group purchase will have to wait until a > second run of machines (hopefully by the end of March)... For this first-run of RaspberryPi's they plan to limit purchases to one per-person. -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 17:40:51 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:40:51 -0500 Subject: Interesting article on the "costs of supporting legacy hardware" Message-ID: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2012/02/the-costs-of-supporting-legacy-hardware/ I think that the thesis presented explains a lot about why mobile platform projects have a hard time staying viable. You likely can't buy a cell phone from 6 years ago, and it would likely have *so* vastly less capacity than new hardware that few will be terribly interested in working on having modern software accommodate the elderly hardware. We're pretty lucky that a six year old desktop can run reasonably nicely as a headless server, otherwise Linux on desktop and server would be suffering pretty badly from the troubles described. And it seems to me that the "costs of supporting legacy hardware" has a fair bit of explanatory power for how difficult it is to support anything other than the very most popular OS. Linux (the kernel) has so many developers surrounding it that the community can support a pretty broad set of hardware. The BSDs have fewer developers, but still have enough that they can keep up by "cherry picking" from what Linux gets supported. That's not to say they're not doing real work; there are some interesting things going on particularly in the filesystems area. I'm not quite sure how Plan 9 persisted to not be an inoperable curiosity; it suffered from the "only supports hardware that's only barely available" for quite a while. The hardware compatibility list () is fairly large; the last time I attempted an install I ran afoul of the "oops, it doesn't support my SCSI controller" problem. Entertainingly, the list of supported SCSI controllers hasn't changed much since then. And the progression of video hardware support and lack of support looks likely to fit with the initial blog entry. GNU Hurd has been malingering at the edges; it probably deserves a talk. Unfortunately, there are so few people working on GNU Mach (the kernel) that the easiest way to keep Hurd running these days is by running it atop a VM such as QEMU. Sadly, IA-32 only. So, in effect, it only runs on >6yr old hardware, or on newer stuff running another OS and then emulating >6yr old hardware :-(. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 17:50:50 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:50:50 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: References: <20120221160143.GJ18685@adb.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> Scott Sullivan has on more than one occasion noted that >> he was planning to organize a group Raspberry Pi purchase. So, I'll >> let Scott note his plans in that regard, but, yes, this is the sort of >> thing that would be of real interest to me. >> >> As it is, the first production run of Raspberry Pi machines, currently >> in progress, is 10,000 machines. Given the level of interest that >> seems to be surrounding the Raspberry Pi, I expect that first run of >> machines (which will all be the $35 model B (the $25 model A may not >> start mass production for a few months)) will sell out in hours (maybe >> in minutes). So, likely any group purchase will have to wait until a >> second run of machines (hopefully by the end of March)... > > For this first-run of RaspberryPi's they plan to limit purchases to > one per-person. Even at one per person I expect the machines will sell out QUICKLY. Also, I guess should be noted that there is also a version of Debian Linux that has been done for the Raspberry Pi. So, even at launch you will have a choice of Linux distributions, Fedora and Debian. Anyone know if there are any other Linux distributions planned for the launch of Raspberry Pi? Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 17:56:15 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:56:15 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 Message-ID: Hi all ... I installed Debian Squeeze (32-bit) on a Thinkpad Edge E520 and the built-in webcam fails to work with the backported kernel ... launching guvcview or luvcview alternates between crashing and locking up the entire desktop. Some info: * kernel is 3.2.0-0.bpo.1-686-pae * lsusb detects the webcam and identifies it as "5986:03b3 Acer" * uvcvideo module is loaded I tried booting into the default 2.6.32 kernel in Debian Squeeze and the webcam *did* work with that kernel (but everything else is better supported in the newer backport kernel). Anything else I can try to get it working? Can I install maybe another, earlier released Debian kernel (but later than 2.6.32)? Thanks for any help! -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 18:31:31 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:31:31 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F43E303.60007@rogers.com> Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > Hi all ... I installed Debian Squeeze (32-bit) on a Thinkpad Edge E520 > and the built-in webcam fails to work with the backported kernel ... > launching guvcview or luvcview alternates between crashing and locking > up the entire desktop. I have the same computer and the camera works fine with openSUSE 12.1. Also, why are you running a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit computer? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 18:36:31 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:36:31 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: References: <20120216193904.GL27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120221183631.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 12:24:10PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > I have a control file that looks like as below: Notice > "Build-Depends" do not list debhelper 8 as a requirement? However, > when I run dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b, I get an error that I have an > unmet dependency which happen to be debhelper version 8. dpkg-source > -x apache2_2.2.22-1ubuntu1.dsc do runs fine. Where does > dpkg-buildpackage get this information? dpkg-buildpackage gets it from debian/control. Not sure where the other part you listed came from. Also no idea where you got a ubuntu one from. I only checked that the debian package from debian unstable is buildable on debian stable with one minor update in packages by getting debhelper from debian squeeze-backports. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 18:38:45 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:38:45 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120221183845.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 12:56:15PM -0500, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > Hi all ... I installed Debian Squeeze (32-bit) on a Thinkpad Edge E520 > and the built-in webcam fails to work with the backported kernel ... > launching guvcview or luvcview alternates between crashing and locking > up the entire desktop. > > Some info: > > * kernel is 3.2.0-0.bpo.1-686-pae > * lsusb detects the webcam and identifies it as "5986:03b3 Acer" > * uvcvideo module is loaded Does dmesg show it as detected by the driver? Does any /dev/video* devices get created? > I tried booting into the default 2.6.32 kernel in Debian Squeeze and > the webcam *did* work with that kernel (but everything else is better > supported in the newer backport kernel). > > Anything else I can try to get it working? Can I install maybe > another, earlier released Debian kernel (but later than 2.6.32)? All webcams made in the last few years should be UVC and just work (2.6.26 kernel being an exception due to a driver bug). I haven't tried my webcam on my thinkpad lately, but I would have expected it to work with 3.2.0. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 18:52:45 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:52:45 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: <20120221183845.GO27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120221183845.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Does dmesg show it as detected by the driver? > > Does any /dev/video* devices get created? > >> I tried booting into the default 2.6.32 kernel in Debian Squeeze and >> the webcam *did* work with that kernel (but everything else is better >> supported in the newer backport kernel). >> >> Anything else I can try to get it working? Can I install maybe >> another, earlier released Debian kernel (but later than 2.6.32)? > > All webcams made in the last few years should be UVC and just work > (2.6.26 kernel being an exception due to a driver bug). > > I haven't tried my webcam on my thinkpad lately, but I would have expected > it to work with 3.2.0. > $ dmesg | grep video [ 1.027256] pci 0000:00:02.0: Boot video device [ 7.318859] Linux video capture interface: v2.00 [ 7.611816] uvcvideo: Found UVC 1.00 device Integrated Camera (5986:03b3) [ 7.613572] usbcore: registered new interface driver uvcvideo ... and /dev/video0 exists. I have a Thinkpad X220 running Squeeze with the same kernel - 3.2.0.bpo.1-686-pae - and the built-in webcam works fine (though its a different device than the one included in the E520). I think I am going to explore snapshot.debian.org and see about installing an earlier kernel and whether or not it makes a difference. -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 18:59:08 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:59:08 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: <4F43E303.60007-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F43E303.60007@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 1:31 PM, James Knott wrote: > I have the same computer and the camera works fine with openSUSE 12.1. > > Also, why are you running a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit computer? OpenSUSE 12.1 uses 3.1 kernel by default, I believe? I use 32-bit on some older computers and just standardized around that. In the past I have had some niggling little issues with 64-bit that never occurred with 32-bit. -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 19:10:10 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:10:10 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: <4F43E303.60007@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F43EC12.3080602@rogers.com> Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > OpenSUSE 12.1 uses 3.1 kernel by default, I believe? 3.1.9-1.4.1 > I use 32-bit on some older computers and just standardized around > that. In the past I have had some niggling little issues with 64-bit > that never occurred with 32-bit. I suspect those issues may have died years ago. I've been running 64 bits on 64 bit capable systems for about 6 years. I only run 32 bit on 32 bit computers. BTW, I find the E520 to be a very nice computer for running Linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 19:37:10 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:37:10 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: <20120221183845.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > I have a Thinkpad X220 running Squeeze with the same kernel - > 3.2.0.bpo.1-686-pae - and the built-in webcam works fine (though its a > different device than the one included in the E520). > > I think I am going to explore snapshot.debian.org and see about > installing an earlier kernel and whether or not it makes a difference. No luck on the earlier kernel ... Starting guvcview locked the desktop to the point I couldn't even CTRL-ALT out to a console. Well, looks like this one is going to need a little more work. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 19:47:10 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:47:10 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: <4F43EC12.3080602-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F43E303.60007@rogers.com> <4F43EC12.3080602@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 2:10 PM, James Knott wrote: > BTW, I find the E520 to be a very nice computer for running Linux. Your earlier post to the list sparked my original interest ... the laptop is for my father. So far - with the exception of the webcam - everything appears to be working. -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 19:55:16 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:55:16 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: <1329839440.9245.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOE/JfqJOfUXs/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1329839440.9245.YahooMailNeo@web113410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F43F6A4.50605@ss.org> On 02/21/2012 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > You gotta give us a demo some time. > -- > William > William, to the very rarity(*) of the hardware at the moment it is truly hard to find demo expect on YouTube. But you are actually in Luck! As Seneca College has atleast on of the Alpha boards and will be Demoing it Tomorrow. http://bit.ly/raspi-remix-14 Raspberry Pi Fedora Remix 14 Release Event Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:00 - 5:00 pm - Presentations at 3:30 pm Seneca Centre for Development of Open Technology (CDOT), First floor, TEL Building, Seneca at York Campus (88 The Pond Rd, Toronto ON M3J 3M6) -- (*) Currently Population of Raspberry Pi Devices: 50x Alpha Board, seeded to Developers worldwide 10x Beta Boards, used to prove mass production board, one fault was found that was thankfully easy to correct. These were then Sold off at Auction, the Raspberry Pi Foundation is actually a Charity who's goals centre around UK schools. 10000x Model Bs, First Production Run for initial public release to early adopters. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 20:12:14 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:12:14 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: References: <20120221160143.GJ18685@adb.ca> Message-ID: <4F43FA9E.5010200@ss.org> On 02/21/2012 12:50 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Daniel Wayne Armstrong > wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: >>> Scott Sullivan has on more than one occasion noted that >>> he was planning to organize a group Raspberry Pi purchase. So, I'll >>> let Scott note his plans in that regard, but, yes, this is the sort of >>> thing that would be of real interest to me. This is still true. But I would like to remind folks that there is only ONE reason to group buy, and that is simple to shave some dollars off shipping. That value is lost in the logistics of organizing a group buy. If you don't mind waiting to get yours then I will consult with individuals who are interested. Otherwise I would suggest going your own way or organizing your own group buys among your local peers. This started because I plan to buy a minimum of 4 and so does my boss, along with a handful of people I see on a semi-regular and predicable basis. >> For this first-run of RaspberryPi's they plan to limit purchases to >> one per-person. Correct. > > Even at one per person I expect the machines will sell out QUICKLY. Highly Probable. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 21:32:25 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:32:25 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: <20120221183631.GN27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120216193904.GL27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120221183631.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Lennart > > dpkg-buildpackage gets it from debian/control. Thank you. That helped a lot. I was actually able to get further after realizing dpkg-buildpackage and dpkg-source do not share the same configuration file. > > Not sure where the other part you listed came from. > > Also no idea where you got a ubuntu one from. ?I only checked that > the debian package from debian unstable is buildable on debian stable > with one minor update in packages by getting debhelper from debian > squeeze-backports. I got the Ubuntu version from ubuntu 11.10 repository. This is after trying the debian source package without success. I mean, the package on the debian repository can't install on my system without updating and installing lots of other packages which is what I was attempting to avoid. The whole idea is to have apache 2.2.22 without triggering a full system upgrade Now, it seem I have hate some bug from my google search. The thing is if I manually create debian/tmp/usr/share/apache2/icons, it complain it can't clean the tmp directory. If its not created, it complain the directory do not exist. ==Pertinent section=== dh_install -O--parallel cp: cannot stat `debian/tmp/usr/share/apache2/icons': No such file or directory dh_install: cp -a debian/tmp/usr/share/apache2/icons debian/apache2.2-common//usr/share/apache2/ returned exit code 1 make: *** [binary] Error 2 dpkg-buildpackage: error: debian/rules binary gave error exit status 2 ==================== The whole output looked like this: dpkg-buildpackage: set CFLAGS to default value: -g -O2 dpkg-buildpackage: set CPPFLAGS to default value: dpkg-buildpackage: set LDFLAGS to default value: -Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions dpkg-buildpackage: set FFLAGS to default value: -g -O2 dpkg-buildpackage: set CXXFLAGS to default value: -g -O2 dpkg-buildpackage: source package apache2 dpkg-buildpackage: source version 2.2.22-1 dpkg-buildpackage: source changed by Stefan Fritsch dpkg-buildpackage: host architecture amd64 debian/rules clean dh clean --parallel dh_testdir -O--parallel debian/rules override_dh_auto_clean make[1]: Entering directory `/home/ubuntu/apache2-2.2.22' rm -f support/suexec-custom.c rm -rf debian/build-tree rm -rf debian/install-tree rm -f debian/tmp make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/ubuntu/apache2-2.2.22' debian/rules override_dh_clean make[1]: Entering directory `/home/ubuntu/apache2-2.2.22' for f in postinst preinst prerm links dirs ; do \ rm -f debian/apache2-mpm-worker.$f ;\ done rm -f debian/apache2-mpm-worker.lintian-overrides for f in postinst preinst prerm links dirs ; do \ rm -f debian/apache2-mpm-prefork.$f ;\ done rm -f debian/apache2-mpm-prefork.lintian-overrides for f in postinst preinst prerm links dirs ; do \ rm -f debian/apache2-mpm-event.$f ;\ done rm -f debian/apache2-mpm-event.lintian-overrides for f in postinst preinst prerm links dirs ; do \ rm -f debian/apache2-mpm-itk.$f ;\ done rm -f debian/apache2-mpm-itk.lintian-overrides dh_clean make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/ubuntu/apache2-2.2.22' debian/rules build make: `build' is up to date. debian/rules binary dh binary --parallel dh_testdir -O--parallel debian/rules override_dh_auto_configure make[1]: Entering directory `/home/ubuntu/apache2-2.2.22' cp support/suexec.c support/suexec-custom.c patch -p1 < debian/patches/202_suexec-custom patching file support/suexec-custom.c for f in postinst preinst prerm links dirs ; do \ perl -p -e "s/MPMXXX/worker/g" < debian/mpms.$f > debian/apache2-mpm-worker.$f ;\ done perl -p -e "s/^/apache2-mpm-worker: /" < debian/mpms.lintian-overrides > debian/apache2-mpm-worker.lintian-overrides for f in postinst preinst prerm links dirs ; do \ perl -p -e "s/MPMXXX/prefork/g" < debian/mpms.$f > debian/apache2-mpm-prefork.$f ;\ done perl -p -e "s/^/apache2-mpm-prefork: /" < debian/mpms.lintian-overrides > debian/apache2-mpm-prefork.lintian-overrides for f in postinst preinst prerm links dirs ; do \ perl -p -e "s/MPMXXX/event/g" < debian/mpms.$f > debian/apache2-mpm-event.$f ;\ done perl -p -e "s/^/apache2-mpm-event: /" < debian/mpms.lintian-overrides > debian/apache2-mpm-event.lintian-overrides for f in postinst preinst prerm links dirs ; do \ perl -p -e "s/MPMXXX/itk/g" < debian/mpms.$f > debian/apache2-mpm-itk.$f ;\ done perl -p -e "s/^/apache2-mpm-itk: /" < debian/mpms.lintian-overrides > debian/apache2-mpm-itk.lintian-overrides mkdir debian/build-tree mkdir debian/install-tree make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/ubuntu/apache2-2.2.22' # Skipping dh_auto_build - empty override dh_auto_test -O--parallel dh_testroot -O--parallel dh_prep -O--parallel dh_installdirs -O--parallel # Skipping dh_auto_install - empty override dh_install -O--parallel cp: cannot stat `debian/tmp/usr/share/apache2/icons': No such file or directory dh_install: cp -a debian/tmp/usr/share/apache2/icons debian/apache2.2-common//usr/share/apache2/ returned exit code 1 make: *** [binary] Error 2 dpkg-buildpackage: error: debian/rules binary gave error exit status 2 William > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 21:42:53 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:42:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interesting article on the "costs of supporting legacy hardware" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2012/02/the-costs-of-supporting-legacy-hardware/ I was not impressed by the article. 5% of the code in a window manager is duplicated because it wants to use OpenGL and we're going through a transition. 1) (curmudgeon mode) why do window managers need to use OpenGL. When I was a boy, they didn't. Self-inflicted problem, to some extent. (I don't like wobbly windows.) 2) He claims that all the hardware that needs this is 6 years old or older. Not true: you can go to Best Buy today and get stuff with video that won't support OpenGL 2.0. For example, most netbooks. 3) I want many years of life out of my hardware. This does not mean that I want the software to be frozen -- that's dangerous. I have dozen-year-old boxes still in service. Why? Because they are doing their job well and I'm having trouble cheaply configuring something that will do better. 4) OpenGL 2.0 support is still not there. ATI/AMD fglrx doesn't do it. Legacy nVidia proprietary doesn't do it (I think). Open drivers are not always the right choice right now. For example if you wish to get sound over HDMI with the recent ATI hardware you need to use the proprietary driver. 5) the window manager may be the only code that uses OpenGL that I care about. Not a very large body of code to keep working. If he wants to, give us a fallback window manager that doesn't do special effects. Oh the deprivation! That's like Microsoft when they said that 10 years of supporting XP was enough. That's from when they started selling it, not from the end. (I don't think that that is their current position.) That the KDE developers are thinking this way strikes me as a dangerous disconnect from their user base. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 21:54:38 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:54:38 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > Hi all ... I installed Debian Squeeze (32-bit) on a Thinkpad Edge E520 > and the built-in webcam fails to work with the backported kernel ... > launching guvcview or luvcview alternates between crashing and locking > up the entire desktop. > > Some info: > > * kernel is 3.2.0-0.bpo.1-686-pae > * lsusb detects the webcam and identifies it as "5986:03b3 Acer" > * uvcvideo module is loaded Webcam is FIXED. When running VLC failed to display video I suspected - combined with the webcam/desktop freezes - there might be a deeper problem with the X environment. I checked to see if there was a more recent Xorg package in Debian backports ... there is. Replacing the default Xorg and Intel driver in Squeeze with the backported versions + the backported kernel resolved the issue. Thanks for the replies. -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 22:05:29 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:05:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interesting article on the "costs of supporting legacy hardware" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | I think that the thesis presented explains a lot about why mobile | platform projects have a hard time staying viable. You likely can't | buy a cell phone from 6 years ago, and it would likely have *so* | vastly less capacity than new hardware that few will be terribly | interested in working on having modern software accommodate the | elderly hardware. Cell phone hardware is always the minimum to run todays software. When you buy one, you cannot upsize it (and DIMMs and hard drives, choose a better video card) nor can you do so later. There is a real force pushing towards minimal hardware: trying to keep the power budget, the size, and the weight to the minimum, and of course the price. On top of that, the marketing system provides no incentive for vendors to provide upgrades. | And it seems to me that the "costs of supporting legacy hardware" has | a fair bit of explanatory power for how difficult it is to support | anything other than the very most popular OS. Legacy is only one dimension of diversity. There really is a lot of other kinds of diversity. Your SCSI card is a perfect example. In fact, the opposite of legacy is also a problem: new hardware comes out faster than support can flow from the kernel to the distros to the releases. As you point out, Hurd and Plan/9 would probably be livelocked if they tried to support new hardware when it comes out. | Linux (the kernel) has so many developers surrounding it that the | community can support a pretty broad set of hardware. Not broad enough. Mostly due to trade secrecy. And not quickly enough. The world that seems to be the "growing tip" of hardware is quite closed to us. Tablets and mobile phones have completely closed "peripherals". | The BSDs have fewer developers, but still have enough that they can | keep up by "cherry picking" from what Linux gets supported. I didn't think that they are copying code from Linux drivers. I assume that they gain information about hardware from code in Linux drivers. | I'm not quite sure how Plan 9 persisted to not be an inoperable | curiosity; it suffered from the "only supports hardware that's only | barely available" for quite a while. I don't know. But I remember when UNIX and Linux on PCs required you to build your own machine out of carefully selected parts. And sometimes you'd be bushwhacked by hardware that changed without a name change. | The hardware compatibility list | () | is fairly large; the last time I attempted an install I ran afoul of | the "oops, it doesn't support my SCSI controller" problem. The correct solution was to buy a different SCSI controller. Or give up (which you and I did). I suspect now most plan9 die hards (AKA users) run on virtual hardware. But I don't know. | Entertainingly, the list of supported SCSI controllers hasn't changed | much since then. Isn't SCSI legacy now? I mean the physical layer. The only SCSI hardware that gets used in my world is old scanners with unique capabilities (35mm film scanner; flatbed scanner that handles legal size paper). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 22:10:00 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:10:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Daniel Wayne Armstrong | When running VLC failed to display video I suspected - combined with | the webcam/desktop freezes - there might be a deeper problem with the | X environment. I checked to see if there was a more recent Xorg | package in Debian backports ... there is. Replacing the default Xorg | and Intel driver in Squeeze with the backported versions + the | backported kernel resolved the issue. This is the kind of thing that scares me away from Debian. I like it when the distro takes care of me. I will admit: - my trust in Fedora and Ubuntu has not always been justified. - I'm being a bit like a Windows user: if it is broken, someone else will fix it or it will stay broken. I'd like to be braver. How do you keep aware of backports? How do you decide whether to use one? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 22:30:04 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:30:04 -0500 Subject: Interesting article on the "costs of supporting legacy hardware" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 5:05 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Christopher Browne > > | I think that the thesis presented explains a lot about why mobile > | platform projects have a hard time staying viable. ?You likely can't > | buy a cell phone from 6 years ago, and it would likely have *so* > | vastly less capacity than new hardware that few will be terribly > | interested in working on having modern software accommodate the > | elderly hardware. > > Cell phone hardware is always the minimum to run todays software. > When you buy one, you cannot upsize it (and DIMMs and hard drives, > choose a better video card) nor can you do so later. ?There is a real > force pushing towards minimal hardware: trying to keep the power > budget, the size, and the weight to the minimum, and of course the > price. > > On top of that, the marketing system provides no incentive for > vendors to provide upgrades. Laptops have a somewhat similar profile, though there's sometimes *some* capability to upgrade memory and/or hard drive. You certainly have no choice for video save for whatever is soldered into place. > | And it seems to me that the "costs of supporting legacy hardware" has > | a fair bit of explanatory power for how difficult it is to support > | anything other than the very most popular OS. > > Legacy is only one dimension of diversity. ?There really is a lot of > other kinds of diversity. ?Your SCSI card is a perfect example. > > In fact, the opposite of legacy is also a problem: new hardware comes > out faster than support can flow from the kernel to the distros to the > releases. ?As you point out, Hurd and Plan/9 would probably be > livelocked if they tried to support new hardware when it comes out. The presence of VM software is somewhat helpful, except in the sense that there's something somewhat futile about running two operating systems simultaneously, the host and the hosted system. > | Linux (the kernel) has so many developers surrounding it that the > | community can support a pretty broad set of hardware. > > Not broad enough. ?Mostly due to trade secrecy. ?And not quickly > enough. > > The world that seems to be the "growing tip" of hardware is quite > closed to us. ?Tablets and mobile phones have completely closed > "peripherals". You have a point, but in terms of there being a Huge Volume of more or less ancient hardware supported, well, Linux certainly has that. The problems Linux faces are less about having enough developers to cope with the workload and more about fighting with trade secrecy, which is a different problem. > | The BSDs have fewer developers, but still have enough that they can > | keep up by "cherry picking" from what Linux gets supported. > > I didn't think that they are copying code from Linux drivers. ?I > assume that they gain information about hardware from code in Linux > drivers. Oh, I wasn't intending to imply copying of code. I think it has happened once or twice, but the point is rather about gaining information via what the Linux driver developers have discovered. The BSD guys don't have to dig quite as hard. > | ?The hardware compatibility list > | () > | is fairly large; the last time I attempted an install I ran afoul of > | the "oops, it doesn't support my SCSI controller" problem. > > The correct solution was to buy a different SCSI controller. ?Or give > up (which you and I did). > > I suspect now most plan9 die hards (AKA users) run on virtual > hardware. ?But I don't know. That seems almost certainly true for Hurd. > | Entertainingly, the list of supported SCSI controllers hasn't changed > | much since then. > > Isn't SCSI legacy now? ?I mean the physical layer. ?The only SCSI > hardware that gets used in my world is old scanners with unique > capabilities (35mm film scanner; flatbed scanner that handles legal > size paper). I find it interesting that Plan 9's hardware list has burgeoned in almost every area *other* than SCSI. There were some developments of interest after the last cards that they list. I had an Adaptec 2930, I think, and there were a few more Symbios/NCR generations of chips. Though with the Adaptec boards, there were pretty serious problems with the "BIOS of the week" situation, where the vendor was so keen to spew out new board versions that it was mighty difficult to keep *any* driver compatible with it. It certainly is NOT something that would encourage Plan 9 folk with limited time on their hands to work hard on drivers only to expect to fall behind anyways. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 22:50:20 2012 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:50:20 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 5:10 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Daniel Wayne Armstrong > > | When running VLC failed to display video I suspected - combined with > | the webcam/desktop freezes - there might be a deeper problem with the > | X environment. I checked to see if there was a more recent Xorg > | package in Debian backports ... there is. Replacing the default Xorg > | and Intel driver in Squeeze with the backported versions + the > | backported kernel resolved the issue. > > This is the kind of thing that scares me away from Debian. > > I like it when the distro takes care of me. > > I will admit: > > - my trust in Fedora and Ubuntu has not always been justified. > > - I'm being a bit like a Windows user: if it is broken, someone > ?else will fix it or it will stay broken. > > I'd like to be braver. > > How do you keep aware of backports? ?How do you decide whether to use > one? Debian backports repository - a selection of packages backported to the Debian stable release - is not included in a default Debian install. A user can add it to the package manager and choose which packages they would like to install. The package manager can show what different versions of a package are available for install and the user can specify their choice. I like to use it for adding more recent kernels and the latest Iceweasel/Firefox. Once a backported package and its dependencies are installed its tracked for updates like any other package. My hiccup with the backport kernel arose because the kernel does not rely on Xorg as a dependency ... so I was running the default, older version in stable. Usually this wouldn't pose a problem but with this particular combination of hardware and software it did. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 21 23:06:22 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:06:22 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: References: <20120216193904.GL27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120221183631.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: FYI On 21 February 2012 16:32, William Muriithi wrote: > Lennart > >> >> dpkg-buildpackage gets it from debian/control. > > Thank you. ?That helped a lot. ?I was actually able to get further > after realizing ?dpkg-buildpackage and ?dpkg-source do not share the > same configuration file. >> >> Not sure where the other part you listed came from. >> >> Also no idea where you got a ubuntu one from. ?I only checked that >> the debian package from debian unstable is buildable on debian stable >> with one minor update in packages by getting debhelper from debian >> squeeze-backports. > I got the Ubuntu version from ubuntu 11.10 repository. ?This is after > trying the debian source package without success. ?I mean, the package > on the debian repository can't install on my system without updating > and installing lots of other packages which is what I was attempting > to avoid. ?The whole idea is to have apache 2.2.22 without triggering > a full system upgrade > > Now, it seem I have hate some bug from my google search. ?The thing is > if I manually create debian/tmp/usr/share/apache2/icons, it complain > it can't clean the tmp directory. ?If its not created, it complain the > directory do not exist. Managed to go past this issue, by modifying debian/rules file. It compiled successfully but failed up during the clean up process. Damn, now a bit of more googling This is the last couple of lines before the exit with error 2 + mv tmp_config_vars.mk config_vars.mk dh_testroot dh_testdir dh_installdirs #cleanup of death rm -rf debian/tmp/etc/apache2/original rm -rf debian/tmp/usr/include rm -rf debian/tmp/usr/share/apache2/build rm -f debian/tmp/usr/share/man/man8/httpd.8 # We install our own rm -f debian/tmp/usr/sbin/apxs debian/tmp/usr/sbin/apache2 # DO NOT FALL FOR THE TEMPTATION TO MV INTO PACKAGES OR DOOM # WILL FIND YOU. Use dh_install, this is just because dh_install # can't rename files mv debian/tmp/usr/share/man/man8/apxs.8 debian/tmp/usr/share/man/man8/apxs2.8 mv: cannot stat `debian/tmp/usr/share/man/man8/apxs.8': No such file or directory make: *** [install] Error 1 dpkg-buildpackage: error: debian/rules binary gave error exit status 2 Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 22 01:04:52 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:04:52 -0800 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: you could extract both files and control from an existing package using: mkdir packagename dpkg -x package.deb packagename mkdir packagename/DEBIAN dpkg -e package.deb packagename/DEBIAN then update as needed and repackage: dpkg-deb -b packagename On Feb 16, 2012 8:26 AM, "William Muriithi" wrote: > Hi, > > I have been able to package software into rpm in the past but have not > had the opportunity to package source code into deb package format > till this morning. I am wondering if anybody here has forward a > reliable documentation to assist > > My hope is to get apache version 2.2.22 that I can use to update the > distribution provided apache, which is a little behind. I couple of > things I have noticed. > > On RedHat, I usually download a source RPM and then uses the source > spec file as a starting point. I am having problem finding an > equivalent file do the deb package. I believe its called control file > on Debian based system. > > Anyone done this before and would know where I could locate it? > > Regards, > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 22 15:37:03 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:37:03 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: <4F43FA9E.5010200-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <20120221160143.GJ18685@adb.ca> <4F43FA9E.5010200@ss.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > On 02/21/2012 12:50 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Daniel Wayne Armstrong >> ?wrote: >>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Colin McGregor >>> ?wrote: >>>> >>>> Scott Sullivan ?has on more than one occasion noted that >>>> he was planning to organize a group Raspberry Pi purchase. So, I'll >>>> let Scott note his plans in that regard, but, yes, this is the sort of >>>> thing that would be of real interest to me. > > > This is still true. But I would like to remind folks that there is only ONE > reason to group buy, and that is simple to shave some dollars off shipping. > That value is lost in the logistics of organizing a group buy. True. If you save say $6 on shipping by doing a group purchase, then have to buy 2 subway tokens (or spend similar money on gas and parking) to pick-up the machines, then you're no further ahead. > If you don't mind waiting to get yours then I will consult with individuals > who are interested. Otherwise I would suggest going your own way or > organizing your own group buys among your local peers. Good point, and a good thought. I see Scott on a fairly regular/predictable basis. Further, my interest in a Raspberry Pi is as a MythTV client machine, so, I am willing to wait a bit for the video driver software to become somewhat more polished. So, next questions, are there enough people here who don't see Scott on a fairly regular/predictable basis who: - Want a Raspberry Pi? - Are willing to wait a bit to get one? - Do we have one (or more) people who do see these people on a fairly regular/predictable basis who are willing to act as co-coordinators? In other words, if we have Scott and one (or more) other people in GTALug willing to act as group buying co-coordinators we should be able to save everyone a few bucks (if we don't eat the shipping savings on transporting Raspberry Pies within the city)... > This started because I plan to buy a minimum of 4 and so does my boss, along > with a handful of people I see on a semi-regular and predicable basis. I want one. >>> For this first-run of RaspberryPi's they plan to limit purchases to >>> one per-person. > > Correct. > >> >> Even at one per person I expect the machines will sell out QUICKLY. > > > Highly Probable. > > -- > Scott Sullivan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 22 15:58:08 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:58:08 -0500 Subject: Interesting article on the "costs of supporting legacy hardware" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120222155808.GA24237@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 05:05:29PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Isn't SCSI legacy now? I mean the physical layer. The only SCSI > hardware that gets used in my world is old scanners with unique > capabilities (35mm film scanner; flatbed scanner that handles legal > size paper). Parallel scsi is legacy these days. The scsi protocol is alive and well of course, being used for SAS, ATAPI, USB storage class, and lots of other things (even things like iSCSI). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 22 16:00:26 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:00:26 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120222160026.GB24237@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 05:10:00PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > This is the kind of thing that scares me away from Debian. > > I like it when the distro takes care of me. > > I will admit: > > - my trust in Fedora and Ubuntu has not always been justified. > > - I'm being a bit like a Windows user: if it is broken, someone > else will fix it or it will stay broken. > > I'd like to be braver. > > How do you keep aware of backports? How do you decide whether to use > one? Most people running debian stable have no reason to use backports. But if you want to or have some hardware stable doesn't support, then perhaps an updated kernel or other bits from backports will solve the problem while letting you keep the majority of your system at stable (and hence avoiding the huge amount of churn that happens in testing and especially unstable). Now if you just happen to want new stuff for the sake of wanting new stuff, then debian stable isn't for you at all. Testing and unstable are much more fun. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 22 16:09:39 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:09:39 -0500 Subject: Making a deb package In-Reply-To: References: <20120216193904.GL27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120221183631.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120222160939.GC24237@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 04:32:25PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > Thank you. That helped a lot. I was actually able to get further > after realizing dpkg-buildpackage and dpkg-source do not share the > same configuration file. > > I got the Ubuntu version from ubuntu 11.10 repository. This is after > trying the debian source package without success. I mean, the package > on the debian repository can't install on my system without updating > and installing lots of other packages which is what I was attempting > to avoid. The whole idea is to have apache 2.2.22 without triggering > a full system upgrade I built the apache 2.2.22 debian package on a debian stable system. Other than getting debhelper from backports, that was all that was needed to build it. I now tried installing the resulting packages, and they installed fine and work as far as I can tell. It served up a web page for me. > Now, it seem I have hate some bug from my google search. The thing is > if I manually create debian/tmp/usr/share/apache2/icons, it complain > it can't clean the tmp directory. If its not created, it complain the > directory do not exist. I believe that was fixed by using debhelper from backports. The only change I did to get it to compile was to install debhelper from backports and then edit: diff -urN apache2-2.2.22/debian/rules apache2-2.2.22.fixed/debian/rules --- apache2-2.2.22/debian/rules 2012-01-30 16:42:39.000000000 -0500 +++ apache2-2.2.22.fixed/debian/rules 2012-02-16 11:57:41.000000000 -0500 @@ -270,7 +270,7 @@ override_dh_strip: dh_strip --dbg-package=apache2-dbg -Napache2-dbg -Xusr/lib/apache2/mpm - set -e \ + set -e; \ if [ "$(LSB_RELEASE)" != "Ubuntu" ] && [ -n "$(DEB_BUILD_STRIP)" ] ; then \ for i in $(MPMS); do \ MPM=usr/lib/apache2/mpm-$$i/apache2 ;\ -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 22 20:38:46 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:38:46 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: <4F43FA9E.5010200-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <20120221160143.GJ18685@adb.ca> <4F43FA9E.5010200@ss.org> Message-ID: <4F455256.2040103@ve3syb.ca> On 12-02-21 03:12 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > This started because I plan to buy a minimum of 4 and so does my boss, along > with a handful of people I see on a semi-regular and predicable basis. How long will it be before an individual is allowed to buy more than one board? Second production run? -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 23 16:23:11 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 11:23:11 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: <4F455256.2040103-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120221160143.GJ18685@adb.ca> <4F43FA9E.5010200@ss.org> <4F455256.2040103@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <4F4667EF.9030507@ss.org> On 02/22/2012 03:38 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 12-02-21 03:12 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> This started because I plan to buy a minimum of 4 and so does my boss, >> along >> with a handful of people I see on a semi-regular and predicable basis. > > How long will it be before an individual is allowed to buy more than one > board? Second production run? > The Raspberry Pi Foundation has not giving a solid time frame on that. That is rather fair considering there are just too many factors in play. They do know there is very very strong demand and will likely be doing everything reasonable to get the initial sales revenue turned around and put into continuous production. I'm personal guesstimating something in the 2-3 weeks range, but I'm highly ignorant of the logistics. -- Scott Sullivan P.S. My Spell checker recognized and corrected guesstimate... I want off this linguist train. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 23 16:36:07 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 11:36:07 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: <4F43F6A4.50605-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <1329839440.9245.YahooMailNeo@web113410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F43F6A4.50605@ss.org> Message-ID: <4F466AF7.9090504@ve3syb.ca> On 12-02-21 02:55 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > Raspberry Pi Fedora Remix 14 Release Event > > Wednesday, February 22, 2012 > 3:00 - 5:00 pm - Presentations at 3:30 pm > Seneca Centre for Development of Open Technology (CDOT), First floor, TEL > Building, Seneca at York Campus (88 The Pond Rd, Toronto ON M3J 3M6) Until I saw the message (partially quoted above), I didn't realize Seneca was involved in some of the work surrounding the Raspberry Pi. Did anyone on this list attend the event? By the time I saw the message it was already half an hour in to the event and it would have taken me around 2 hours or so to get to the York campus by public transit from where I am. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 23 16:45:39 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 11:45:39 -0500 Subject: Seneca College and the Raspberry Pi. In-Reply-To: <4F466AF7.9090504-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <1329839440.9245.YahooMailNeo@web113410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F43F6A4.50605@ss.org> <4F466AF7.9090504@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <4F466D33.2050604@ss.org> On 02/23/2012 11:36 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > Did anyone on this list attend the event? By the time I saw the message > it was already half an hour in to the event and it would have taken me > around 2 hours or so to get to the York campus by public transit from > where I am. > I was able to make it out. It had a rather large turn out in a way the organizers weren't totally expecting. Some details are available on recent post to the Raspberrypi Web site. http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/688 I've been aware of the Seneca ARM development for the better part of a year now. I'm a regular reader of the dev mailing list and have had the fortune of visiting the ARMoury (the build farm as they call it) in the past. It was nice to get to see it again after the last expansion and re-cabling. At the time of this message, this page is still showing the cold build farm setup. http://zenit.senecac.on.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_ARM_Koji_Buildsystem -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 23 18:02:08 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:02:08 -0500 Subject: Good news: Dismissal of TZ database lawsuit Message-ID: https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-wins-protection-time-zone-database -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 23 19:00:29 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 11:00:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good news: Dismissal of TZ database lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1330023629.51954.YahooMailNeo@web113413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I think they knew that "facts are not copyrightable" from the beginning. :-) -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Browne > To: GTALUG > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 1:02:08 PM > Subject: [TLUG]: Good news: Dismissal of TZ database lawsuit > > https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-wins-protection-time-zone-database > > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 23 21:28:40 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 16:28:40 -0500 Subject: Time zone database now safe... Message-ID: Good news everyone: Just to briefly note the tz timezone database is now safe from a firm that offers astrology software : https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-wins-protection-time-zone-database The astrology software firm has dropped their lawsuit and have offered an apology. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 03:36:58 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 22:36:58 -0500 Subject: POG local action. Message-ID: Some thoughts from from the last GTALug Political Outreach Group meeting. All who attended the meeting agreed that Bill C-30 (which will change what information ISPs have to collect and provide on government request) has at least one provision that needs change and the bill should be revised or gutted. We would love to see the GTALug membership make their concern(s) regarding the bill known to their Member of Parliament. Issues in the bill that are of possible concern include : - Requiring that the ISPs provide personal information without a warrant. - Who pays the cost of the monitoring equipment the government requires? The ISPs? Taxpayers? - The monitoring equipment will be high value targets for fraudsters (and breaching those monitors disastrous). - How will higher Internet fees or taxes help small businesses? - The information must be provided to whoever the government designates (not necessarily just law enforcement). - The law appears to violate section 8 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Anyone wishing to read bill C-30 can see it here : http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Bills/411/Government/C-30/C-30_1/C-30_1.PDF Some good comments regarding issues with the bill can be heard here : http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/main-blog/2012/02/19/does-the-proposed-law-to-allow-police-easier-identification-of-internet-users-go-too-far/ Anyone wishing to find the name and office address of their MP can do so at the following site: http://www.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/Compilations/HouseOfCommons/MemberByPostalCode.aspx?Menu=HOC The best way to complain is to send a short, polite paper letter noting your concern(s) to your MP. Further, remember that when writing your MP you do NOT have to pay postage. An on-line petition against Bill C-30 can be seen here : http://stopspying.ca/ Also discussed was Bill C-11 (changes to the copyright act). Concerns there include: - Digital locks - Interferes with provincial jurisdiction on property rights - Limitations on fair dealing (equivalent to US fair use) Anyone wishing to read bill C-11 can see it here : http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Bills/411/Government/C-11/C-11_1/C-11_1.PDF Again, please do let your concerns be known to your MP. Thanks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 19 04:26:15 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 23:26:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: C-30 section 34 is awesome Message-ID: I thought that naming the bill "Lawful Access" was bad. Why is it Lawful? Because we say so, right here. So they renamed it "Protecting Children from Internet Predators Act". That's even wilder because there is no mention of children or predators in the act (except in Section 1 "Short Title"). This article shows how truly wild the bill's section 34 is: According to the bill, many obligations fall on a ?telecommunications service provider?, including those of section 34. A TSP is defined as someone that provides "telecommunications services". A TS is: ?telecommunications service? means a service, or a feature of a service, that is provided by means of telecommunications facilities, whether the provider owns, leases or has any other interest in or right respecting the telecommunications facilities and any related equipment used to provide the service. A "telecommunications facility": ?telecommunications facility? means any facility, apparatus or other thing that is used for telecommunications or for any operation directly connected with telecommunications. As far as I can tell, we all have telecommunications facilities (phones, computers, routers, ...). So we all have telecommunications services. And we all provide telecommunications services, if not to anyone else, at least to ourselves. So we all are telecommunications service providers. And I don't think that this interpretation is a stretch. From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 03:50:24 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 22:50:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:10:00 -0500 (EST) Sorry, I resent the wrong message to the list. I wrote "C-30 section 34 is awesome" earlier but I think it got lost when the TLUG mail server hung. So I resent it, but I first resent the wrong message. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 03:59:48 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 22:59:48 -0500 Subject: Webcam not working on Thinkpad E520 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120224035948.GA13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 05:10:00PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > This is the kind of thing that scares me away from Debian. > > I like it when the distro takes care of me. > > I will admit: > > - my trust in Fedora and Ubuntu has not always been justified. > > - I'm being a bit like a Windows user: if it is broken, someone > else will fix it or it will stay broken. > > I'd like to be braver. > > How do you keep aware of backports? How do you decide whether to use > one? How do you know a version of anything exists? How do you know firefox exists? www.backports.org has a list of the packages. packages.debian.org/packagename shows the version of any package in each debian release at this time, including backports, so if you wanted say 'apache2.2' then it would tell you which versions exist in which debian releases. For example: packages.debian.org/debhelper: Package debhelper lenny (oldstable) (devel): helper programs for debian/rules 7.0.15: all lenny-backports (devel): helper programs for debian/rules 8.0.0~bpo50+2 [backports]: all squeeze (stable) (devel): helper programs for debian/rules 8.0.0: all squeeze-backports (devel): helper programs for debian/rules 9.20120115~bpo60+1 [backports]: all wheezy (testing) (devel): helper programs for debian/rules 9.20120115: all sid (unstable) (devel): helper programs for debian/rules 9.20120115: all So lenny (oldstable at this point) has version 7.0.15, and backports for lenny has 8.0.0. squeeze (current stable) has 8.0.0 and backports fo squeeze has 9.20120115. wheezy (testing) has 9.20120115 (seems to be where the backport comes from at this time), and sid (unstable) has the same version. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 04:40:17 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:40:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome Message-ID: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 13:27:40 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:27:40 -0500 Subject: POG local action. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Some thoughts from from the last GTALug Political Outreach Group meeting. > > All who attended the meeting agreed that Bill C-30 (which will change > what information ISPs have to collect and provide on government > request) has at least one provision that needs change and the bill > should be revised or gutted. We would love to see the GTALug > membership make their concern(s) regarding the bill known to their > Member of Parliament. Issues in the bill that are of possible concern > include : > > - Requiring that the ISPs provide personal information without a warrant. > - Who pays the cost of the monitoring equipment the government > requires? The ISPs? Taxpayers? > - The monitoring equipment will be high value targets for fraudsters > (and breaching those monitors disastrous). > - How will higher Internet fees or taxes help small businesses? > - The information must be provided to whoever the government > designates (not necessarily just law enforcement). > - The law appears to violate section 8 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. > > Anyone wishing to read bill C-30 can see it here : > > http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Bills/411/Government/C-30/C-30_1/C-30_1.PDF > > Some good comments regarding issues with the bill can be heard here : > > http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/main-blog/2012/02/19/does-the-proposed-law-to-allow-police-easier-identification-of-internet-users-go-too-far/ > > Anyone wishing to find the name and office address of their MP can do > so at the following site: > > http://www.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/Compilations/HouseOfCommons/MemberByPostalCode.aspx?Menu=HOC > > The best way to complain is to send a short, polite paper letter > noting your concern(s) to your MP. Further, remember that when writing > your MP you do NOT have to pay postage. > > An on-line petition against Bill C-30 can be seen here : http://stopspying.ca/ > > Also discussed was Bill C-11 (changes to the copyright act). Concerns > there include: > > - Digital locks > - Interferes with provincial jurisdiction on property rights > - Limitations on fair dealing (equivalent to US fair use) > > Anyone wishing to read bill C-11 can see it here : > > http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Bills/411/Government/C-11/C-11_1/C-11_1.PDF > > Again, please do let your concerns be known to your MP. > > There's a Political Outreach Group? Cool. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 13:31:44 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:31:44 -0500 Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced Message-ID: I've always suspected that the political process as currently configured is fundamentally untrustworthy, and that the best methods for preserving freedom are technical methods (a la Byron Sonne). I would LOVE to be part of building something like this, anyone know of anything like this locally? http://goo.gl/7Vnua -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 15:42:20 2012 From: anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Anthony Verevkin) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:42:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a910810-f3b5-4fb3-bcf2-e5e77f5fb5b6@zimbra> > From: "Thomas Milne" > I would LOVE to be part of building something like this, anyone know of > anything like this locally? > > http://goo.gl/7Vnua I was thinking about this kind of setup earlier and I would also like to be a part of something like that. However I can see some serious issues here: 1. Bandwidth. These guys are probably using 802.11g, 54Mbit, 2.4GHz. This standard allows for 3 independent radio channels with maximum effective bandwidth of 20Mbit each. 3 channels would be enough to create a basic mesh so it's OK. If you upgrade to 802.11n but stay within one channel and still have only one antenna (not using MIMO), your nominal bandwidth would be 75Mbit, taking you to effective 30-40Mbit per channel, shared and half-duplex, not to mention unstable. Provided that this is a mesh network and this becomes the maximum bandwidth even in the bottleneck points (which turn out to become ``backbone''), I would state that this network would not be good enough to allow web browsing. As if only you allow users to browse the web, here comes youtube and the whole network dies. But who wants the network without http nowadays? 2. Access to the roofs. Homeowners have the best access to put the antenna. But also they are the ones with the worst antenna position, low above the ground. People living in the hi-rise buildings either rent or are bound by the condo rules that make it difficult to put the antenna in the best spot. 3. Internet access. The mesh network is a good way to interchange the information, but the traffic should flow into the Big Internet at some point. Toronto FreeNET probably might be a gateway for such a mesh network, but then again they become the ISP. Yes, they do peer at TorIX, and the mesh network would make the last mile free from Bell, but still Toronto FreeNET is and ISP which abides the regulations. And what if you want to have the alternative ISP? How you would balance between them? Would you put the BGP full table into the mesh network? Well, the first Linksys router in the chain is simply gonna die right away. 4. Ease of use. Is it going to be a network for all people or the network ``for geeks only''? Network for all people should have the ease of connecting (the end point should not be a part of the mesh, rather just connect to a hub of the mesh network). This network would also need to have some phone support service. If we are about to build the ``geeks only'' network, this is fun thing as well, but the distance between the geeks in the city might be a fun-breaker. So this is a nice thing to do, but it has a lot of caveats. If you have an idea of how to overcome this, I'd be happy to join you. Regards, Anthony -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 17:37:07 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:37:07 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Meet-up group... Message-ID: FYI: There is a Toronto meet-up group being organized around the Raspberry Pi. Since this is group just being formed, there are a lot of details (like meeting time and location) still to be determined, but anyone wanting more details should have a look here : www.meetup.com/Raspberry-Pi/ Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 17:54:57 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:54:57 -0500 Subject: POG local action. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> Some thoughts from from the last GTALug Political Outreach Group meeting. >> >> All who attended the meeting agreed that Bill C-30 (which will change >> what information ISPs have to collect and provide on government >> request) has at least one provision that needs change and the bill >> should be revised or gutted. We would love to see the GTALug >> membership make their concern(s) regarding the bill known to their >> Member of Parliament. Issues in the bill that are of possible concern >> include : >> >> - Requiring that the ISPs provide personal information without a warrant. >> - Who pays the cost of the monitoring equipment the government >> requires? The ISPs? Taxpayers? >> - The monitoring equipment will be high value targets for fraudsters >> (and breaching those monitors disastrous). >> - How will higher Internet fees or taxes help small businesses? >> - The information must be provided to whoever the government >> designates (not necessarily just law enforcement). >> - The law appears to violate section 8 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. >> >> Anyone wishing to read bill C-30 can see it here : >> >> http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Bills/411/Government/C-30/C-30_1/C-30_1.PDF >> >> Some good comments regarding issues with the bill can be heard here : >> >> http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/main-blog/2012/02/19/does-the-proposed-law-to-allow-police-easier-identification-of-internet-users-go-too-far/ >> >> Anyone wishing to find the name and office address of their MP can do >> so at the following site: >> >> http://www.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/Compilations/HouseOfCommons/MemberByPostalCode.aspx?Menu=HOC >> >> The best way to complain is to send a short, polite paper letter >> noting your concern(s) to your MP. Further, remember that when writing >> your MP you do NOT have to pay postage. >> >> An on-line petition against Bill C-30 can be seen here : http://stopspying.ca/ >> >> Also discussed was Bill C-11 (changes to the copyright act). Concerns >> there include: >> >> - Digital locks >> - Interferes with provincial jurisdiction on property rights >> - Limitations on fair dealing (equivalent to US fair use) >> >> Anyone wishing to read bill C-11 can see it here : >> >> http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Bills/411/Government/C-11/C-11_1/C-11_1.PDF >> >> Again, please do let your concerns be known to your MP. >> >> > > There's a Political Outreach Group? Cool. Yes, and I have mentioned the meetings on this list from time to time. Bottom line, there are proposed laws that can have a negative impact on the open source community and we should be making the politicians aware of said issues... > -- > Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 19:05:11 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:05:11 -0500 Subject: POG local action. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:54 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >>> Some thoughts from from the last GTALug Political Outreach Group meeting. >>> >>> All who attended the meeting agreed that Bill C-30 (which will change >>> what information ISPs have to collect and provide on government >>> request) has at least one provision that needs change and the bill >>> should be revised or gutted. We would love to see the GTALug >>> membership make their concern(s) regarding the bill known to their >>> Member of Parliament. Issues in the bill that are of possible concern >>> include : >>> >>> - Requiring that the ISPs provide personal information without a warrant. >>> - Who pays the cost of the monitoring equipment the government >>> requires? The ISPs? Taxpayers? >>> - The monitoring equipment will be high value targets for fraudsters >>> (and breaching those monitors disastrous). >>> - How will higher Internet fees or taxes help small businesses? >>> - The information must be provided to whoever the government >>> designates (not necessarily just law enforcement). >>> - The law appears to violate section 8 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. >>> >>> Anyone wishing to read bill C-30 can see it here : >>> >>> http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Bills/411/Government/C-30/C-30_1/C-30_1.PDF >>> >>> Some good comments regarding issues with the bill can be heard here : >>> >>> http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/main-blog/2012/02/19/does-the-proposed-law-to-allow-police-easier-identification-of-internet-users-go-too-far/ >>> >>> Anyone wishing to find the name and office address of their MP can do >>> so at the following site: >>> >>> http://www.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/Compilations/HouseOfCommons/MemberByPostalCode.aspx?Menu=HOC >>> >>> The best way to complain is to send a short, polite paper letter >>> noting your concern(s) to your MP. Further, remember that when writing >>> your MP you do NOT have to pay postage. >>> >>> An on-line petition against Bill C-30 can be seen here : http://stopspying.ca/ >>> >>> Also discussed was Bill C-11 (changes to the copyright act). Concerns >>> there include: >>> >>> - Digital locks >>> - Interferes with provincial jurisdiction on property rights >>> - Limitations on fair dealing (equivalent to US fair use) >>> >>> Anyone wishing to read bill C-11 can see it here : >>> >>> http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Bills/411/Government/C-11/C-11_1/C-11_1.PDF >>> >>> Again, please do let your concerns be known to your MP. >>> >>> >> >> There's a Political Outreach Group? Cool. > > Yes, and I have mentioned the meetings on this list from time to time. > Bottom line, there are proposed laws that can have a negative impact > on the open source community and we should be making the politicians > aware of said issues... > Damn right. I'll watch out for future posts :) -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 19:09:41 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:09:41 -0500 Subject: POG local action. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F47E075.2030305@rogers.com> Thomas Milne wrote: > There's a Political Outreach Group? Cool. Either that or: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogs ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 19:20:14 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:20:14 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:40:17PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > That's a shame. I recently gave up on chrome. It's way to bloated, uses way too much ram and cpu, and I am tired of closing and restarting it multiple times per day just to free some ram. Chrome stinks as a browser these days. Probably the worst browser there is. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 20:08:56 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 15:08:56 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: <20120224192014.GB13614-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:40:17PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> > > That's a shame. > > I recently gave up on chrome. ?It's way to bloated, uses way too much > ram and cpu, and I am tired of closing and restarting it multiple times > per day just to free some ram. ?Chrome stinks as a browser these days. > Probably the worst browser there is. > Really? I find the opposite...if I use Iceweasel my machine seems to become embedded in lucite. Chrome always loads quick and doesn't affect my system at all. I leave it open for days at a time. And I have a very weak system, this that old AMD Sempron I put together from odd bits last year. This _seems_ to be borne out by the various 'speed test's I've seen, though I have no idea how scientific they might have been. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 20:10:32 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 15:10:32 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:40:17PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >>> >> >> That's a shame. >> >> I recently gave up on chrome. ?It's way to bloated, uses way too much >> ram and cpu, and I am tired of closing and restarting it multiple times >> per day just to free some ram. ?Chrome stinks as a browser these days. >> Probably the worst browser there is. >> > > Really? I find the opposite...if I use Iceweasel my machine seems to > become embedded in lucite. Chrome always loads quick and doesn't > affect my system at all. I leave it open for days at a time. And I > have a very weak system, this that old AMD Sempron I put together from > odd bits last year. This _seems_ to be borne out by the various 'speed > test's I've seen, though I have no idea how scientific they might have > been. > Should add, that's _unless_ I use Flash. Flash will cause the whole computer to eventually lock up, but that's true for all browsers, at least on this old piece of crap. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 20:15:07 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 15:15:07 -0500 Subject: POG local action. In-Reply-To: <4F47E075.2030305-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F47E075.2030305@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:09 PM, James Knott wrote: > Thomas Milne wrote: >> >> There's a Political Outreach Group? Cool. > > > Either that or: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogs ?;-) > Ha! Brilliant invention. Cheap cardboard discs that people will trade all their valuable slips of paper for. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 21:03:41 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:03:41 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 03:08:56PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Really? I find the opposite...if I use Iceweasel my machine seems to > become embedded in lucite. Chrome always loads quick and doesn't > affect my system at all. I leave it open for days at a time. And I > have a very weak system, this that old AMD Sempron I put together from > odd bits last year. This _seems_ to be borne out by the various 'speed > test's I've seen, though I have no idea how scientific they might have > been. Try using facebook with all its javascript, and gmail, and youtube with flash, and keep 30 or 40 tabs open, and chrome will kill the machine. firefox isn't great either, but handles a lot more than chrome. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 21:13:33 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:13:33 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: <20120224210341.GC13614-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 03:08:56PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Really? I find the opposite...if I use Iceweasel my machine seems to >> become embedded in lucite. Chrome always loads quick and doesn't >> affect my system at all. I leave it open for days at a time. And I >> have a very weak system, this that old AMD Sempron I put together from >> odd bits last year. This _seems_ to be borne out by the various 'speed >> test's I've seen, though I have no idea how scientific they might have >> been. > > Try using facebook with all its javascript, and gmail, and youtube with > flash, and keep 30 or 40 tabs open, and chrome will kill the machine. > > firefox isn't great either, but handles a lot more than chrome. > Yikes, okay, I never have 30 or 40 tabs open. I can't think of even half a dozen web pages I would want open for that long... -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 21:21:41 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:21:41 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 04:13:33PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Yikes, okay, I never have 30 or 40 tabs open. I can't think of even > half a dozen web pages I would want open for that long... It works like this: Oh that sounds interesting, I will read it later. Middle click to open in another tab. Repeat for a while. Eventually read it and close it, but that might be days, weeks or even months later. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 21:34:43 2012 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:34:43 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: <20120224212141.GD13614-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 24 February 2012 16:21, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Oh that sounds interesting, I will read it later. ?Middle click to open > in another tab. Ever consider creating a "to be read" bookmarks folder? -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 21:35:06 2012 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:35:06 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: <20120224212141.GD13614-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 04:13:33PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > > Yikes, okay, I never have 30 or 40 tabs open. I can't think of even > > half a dozen web pages I would want open for that long... > > It works like this: > > Oh that sounds interesting, I will read it later. Middle click to open > in another tab. > > Repeat for a while. Eventually read it and close it, but that might be > days, weeks or even months later. > Or: I have 8 hours to learn everything I can about $topic for $project. Do breadth-first search for material, then process it later in one go. Firefox is leaner for gazillions of tabs, and it also has things like noscript and adblock (100% reliable versions, which isn't possible with Chrome's lobotomized extension model) which help tremendously with CPU and memory use. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 21:37:16 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:37:16 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120224213716.GE13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 04:34:43PM -0500, Scott Allen wrote: > Ever consider creating a "to be read" bookmarks folder? I don't use bookmarks. Ever. Removing obsolete bookmarks is too much work, and tehre is no convinient one click 'add to bookmarks' either. I expect my browser to not be wasting tons of rtam because a page is open. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 21:37:56 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:37:56 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120224213756.GF13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 04:35:06PM -0500, Andrej Marjan wrote: > Or: I have 8 hours to learn everything I can about $topic for $project. Do > breadth-first search for material, then process it later in one go. Yeah that kind of thing too. > Firefox is leaner for gazillions of tabs, and it also has things like > noscript and adblock (100% reliable versions, which isn't possible with > Chrome's lobotomized extension model) which help tremendously with CPU and > memory use. I do like noscript. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 21:39:03 2012 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:39:03 -0500 Subject: OT: laser printer repairs Message-ID: Does anybody know a reliable service shop in Toronto for Laserjets? The scanner motor on my aging 2200 is giving out (oiling it isn't helping much anymore), and I think the fuser just broke. I'd really like to have someone with experience have a look at it and help me determine if it's better to fix or replace it. Thanks, Andrej -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 24 21:41:19 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:41:19 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120224214119.GA11111@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 04:34:43PM -0500, Scott Allen wrote: > On 24 February 2012 16:21, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > Oh that sounds interesting, I will read it later. ?Middle click to open > > in another tab. > > Ever consider creating a "to be read" bookmarks folder? I do use "Bookmark All Tabs". But, keeping them open allows you to go and forth... paragraph here, paragraph there, off to tangents, back again, etc. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 01:39:31 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 20:39:31 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: <20120224212141.GD13614-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 04:13:33PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Yikes, okay, I never have 30 or 40 tabs open. I can't think of even >> half a dozen web pages I would want open for that long... > > It works like this: > > Oh that sounds interesting, I will read it later. ?Middle click to open > in another tab. > > Repeat for a while. ?Eventually read it and close it, but that might be > days, weeks or even months later. > Most of the time all I have is Google News, Facebook, GMail, and Twitter, then the various tabs that I've opened from links on those main four sites, which I then close as soon as I read them, usually immediately. I'm kind of a freak about organization and clutter, so having that many tabs open would not be psychologically tolerable :) It is striking how quickly the Web became dominated by just a few sites. Kind of chilling, really, but if you don't see it on Google News, Facebook, or Twitter, it probably didn't happen ;) -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 02:00:20 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:00:20 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F4840B4.4000506@utoronto.ca> On 12-02-24 08:39 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > It is striking how quickly the Web became dominated by just a few > sites. Kind of chilling, really, but if you don't see it on Google > News, Facebook, or Twitter, it probably didn't happen ;) Oh it did happen, just that most folks aren't aware of how customized those sites are to their particular biases. Caught in a 'filter bubble' as it has been termed: http://www.thefilterbubble.com/ted-talk Do an experiment, try not using Google for a week. It isn't as hard as you might think and it feels great to explore different ways and places that are available to seek out information online. Seriously, try just a week, as an experiment. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 02:40:50 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:40:50 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: <4F4840B4.4000506-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F4840B4.4000506@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 12-02-24 08:39 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: >> It is striking how quickly the Web became dominated by just a few >> sites. Kind of chilling, really, but if you don't see it on Google >> News, Facebook, or Twitter, it probably didn't happen ;) > > Oh it did happen, This meant sarcasm: ;) > just that most folks aren't aware of how customized > those sites are to their particular biases. Caught in a 'filter bubble' > as it has been termed: http://www.thefilterbubble.com/ted-talk The first comment on that page describes what I've found recently, Twitter is often a much better news source than Google, though it takes some time and effort to get to that point, and obviously there's still a danger you can build and even more restrictive bubble. But that's true with any medium, it takes extra effort to seek out the information that is not 'fit to print'. It's not like the Internet is doing anything different than TV, newspapers, and magazines have always done. It's all about advertising and PR. > Do an experiment, try not using Google for a week. It isn't as hard as > you might think and it feels great to explore different ways and places > that are available to seek out information online. > > Seriously, try just a week, as an experiment. > Well, I've already spent most of the last week ignoring Google News anyway, because I'm finding that there is a lot more diverse and interesting coverage and perspectives on Twitter of the stories I'm interested in. I also use Facebook mainly to follow people or organizations that cover favourite topics. Google News tends to repeat the same headlines for days at a time now, which is very frustrating. I'm not sure what their deal is, but it's becoming almost like a static page sometimes :-\ But you're right, there are some things that literally will never show up anywhere 'automatically', for that I go directly to certain sites like Democracy Now, Al Jazeera, FAIR, and so on. It is quite stunning just to see the difference between Al Jazeera and most Western media sources. That reminds me, just finished a book called Al-Jazeera: How TV News Challenged the World by Hugh Miles. Absolutely required reading for anyone interested in modern news media. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 02:46:58 2012 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:46:58 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F4840B4.4000506@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > > The first comment on that page describes what I've found recently, > Twitter is often a much better news source than Google, though it > takes some time and effort to get to that point, and obviously there's > still a danger you can build and even more restrictive bubble. But > that's true with any medium, it takes extra effort to seek out the > information that is not 'fit to print'. It's not like the Internet is > doing anything different than TV, newspapers, and magazines have > always done. It's all about advertising and PR. > It's very different: it's targeting you as an individual. Nobody else sees what you see. While mass media have fostered the creation of publics in the past (every member of the audience sees and responds to the same stories and concerns), the "filter bubble" effect could lead to destroying publics by isolating every individual from every other individual. As for Google News, I've never liked it - the results were always uninteresting and poor quality IMHO. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 02:47:29 2012 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:47:29 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F4840B4.4000506@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4F484BC1.6040300@utoronto.ca> On 12-02-24 09:40 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > But you're right, there are some things that literally will never show > up anywhere 'automatically', for that I go directly to certain sites > like Democracy Now, Al Jazeera, FAIR, and so on. It is quite stunning > just to see the difference between Al Jazeera and most Western media > sources. Closer to home, it is quite interesting to read news releases on newswire.ca and then see how each major outlet in Canada writes up their own version. > That reminds me, just finished a book called Al-Jazeera: How TV News > Challenged the World by Hugh Miles. Absolutely required reading for > anyone interested in modern news media. I'll look for a copy, thanks for the recommendation. Now back to watching cutesy cat videos on youtube :p Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gron.arthur-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 02:58:28 2012 From: gron.arthur-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Gron Arthur) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:58:28 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Then there are the few really great sites off the radar that you spend too much time on, thinking to yoursellf, that's cool. http://www.blotorches.com/ On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 04:13:33PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: >>> Yikes, okay, I never have 30 or 40 tabs open. I can't think of even >>> half a dozen web pages I would want open for that long... >> >> It works like this: >> >> Oh that sounds interesting, I will read it later. ?Middle click to open >> in another tab. >> >> Repeat for a while. ?Eventually read it and close it, but that might be >> days, weeks or even months later. >> > > Most of the time all I have is Google News, Facebook, GMail, and > Twitter, then the various tabs that I've opened from links on those > main four sites, which I then close as soon as I read them, usually > immediately. I'm kind of a freak about organization and clutter, so > having that many tabs open would not be psychologically tolerable :) > > It is striking how quickly the Web became dominated by just a few > sites. Kind of chilling, really, but if you don't see it on Google > News, Facebook, or Twitter, it probably didn't happen ;) > > -- > Thomas Milne > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 05:04:11 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:04:11 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F4840B4.4000506@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Andrej Marjan wrote: > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> >> >> The first comment on that page describes what I've found recently, >> Twitter is often a much better news source than Google, though it >> takes some time and effort to get to that point, and obviously there's >> still a danger you can build and even more restrictive bubble. But >> that's true with any medium, it takes extra effort to seek out the >> information that is not 'fit to print'. It's not like the Internet is >> doing anything different than TV, newspapers, and magazines have >> always done. It's all about advertising and PR. > > > It's very different: it's targeting you as an individual. Nobody else sees > what you see. Well, I suppose the Internet is making it easier to limit your individual horizon, but I don't see it as a qualitative difference. The overall tendency has always been to feed the consumer the news that is most unoffensive to them personally and least likely to subvert their willingness to keep their mouth shut and do their job. It's always been about obedience, only the medium has changed. In any case, I would challenge anyone to find a demographically significant number of people that believe anything radically different from what's served up by their local nightly news. I don't see the 'filter bubble' making things much worse. If they could get worse. For my second book recommendation of the night: Manufacturing Consent (Noam Chomsky) is another necessary read. > While mass media have fostered the creation of publics in the past (every > member of the audience sees and responds to the same stories and concerns), Can you give me an example of a public that was fostered by the mass media? So far as I've ever seen, publics have been created by resistance, whereas the mass media has always been a servant of power, with only minor, anecdotal exceptions. Mass media is almost by definition propaganda. Just because something is a shared experience doesn't make it more real. Maybe we have a different definition of 'publics'. > the "filter bubble" effect could lead to destroying publics by isolating > every individual from every other individual. People are already vastly alienated from each other. All you have to do is drive on the 401 to see that :) I'm not discounting the damage potential of what the advertisers are doing to the Internet, but the tendency to nostalgia about some mythical past golden age of truth and togetherness in the mass media is just as vexing. > As for Google News, I've never liked it - the results were always > uninteresting and poor quality IMHO. > Well, without knowing what you expect from it I can't comment on that, but personally all I ever wanted from Google was the standard 'Top Stories' that would be on the front page of any traditional newspaper like the NYT or The Guardian or the Toronto Star. It certainly fulfils that role quite well. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 06:56:54 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 01:56:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: <20120224213716.GE13614-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224213716.GE13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | I don't use bookmarks. Ever. Removing obsolete bookmarks is too much | work, and tehre is no convinient one click 'add to bookmarks' either. Bookmarks are like files, open tabs are like emacs buffers. Each has their uses and quirks. | I expect my browser to not be wasting tons of rtam because a page is open. Yeah, me too. But our expectations are not fulfilled. Perhaps browsers should have a concept of suspended tabs: ones that consume almost no resources. Under firefox, have a look at about:memory. At the moment, compartment(http://www.facebook.com/plugins/like.php?hr...) is taking 58 MB of RAM and I don't even have a facebook account or visit it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 16:42:45 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 11:42:45 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: <20120224213716.GE13614-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224213716.GE13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 04:34:43PM -0500, Scott Allen wrote: >> Ever consider creating a "to be read" bookmarks folder? > > I don't use bookmarks. ?Ever. ?Removing obsolete bookmarks is too much > work, and tehre is no convinient one click 'add to bookmarks' either. Firefox has a pretty sophisticated history browser, these days, and the data is all captured in a SQLite database, so if you wanted to do some of your own analysis, it wouldn't be terribly hard. And I rather object to the "no convenient one-click add to bookmarks"; I have had that kind of functionality for "Post to Del.icio.us" for *years* now. All of the big name web browsers permit dragging buttons into areas that allow 'convenient one click', so it *is* easy to get a snippet of code into place to allow capturing and storing a bookmark. Using del.icio.us has a few little issues: - Requires a sign-in process, but that's *once* in a long while - Stores bookmarks remotely - Requires another interaction, as it pops open a window to allow adding tags to the bookmark I'd be shocked if it's not possible to create an analogous "click me!" button that utilizes a local bookmark store. I find local bookmark stores uninteresting for a different reason, namely that I use several computers, and rather prefer the notion of the store being shared. Of late, Firefox does this "in droves" as its "Sync" notion allows sharing history and bookmarks and the list of active windows across multiple Firefox instances. It claims to encrypt all the data before uploading to the Firefox site used to control sharing so that they don't know anything about my history; hopefully true. > I expect my browser to not be wasting tons of rtam because a page is open. At a fairly banal level, that may seem reasonable. In principle, the "cost" of a browser page not being viewed might be the bitmap image of the material. Switch back, and the image can be restored, and the image might even be reasonably pushed out as a swap-like thing. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit with the expectations of what should happen when you switch *back* to the hidden page. Expectations instead are that the state of the page should be kept. - If I have filled in parts of a form, they should still be filled in - If I have reshaped the window, text ought to reformat to fill the new width In practice, today, a great deal of the web sites that people care about (*.facebook.com, *.google.com, *.twitter.com) have increased the footprints of their context to a spectacular degree. Hugh observes on the thread that he's got 58MB of "facebook.com" context in his browser despite not having an account or any reason to be visiting that domain directly. It definitely doesn't cost "nothing," and the cost seems to be getting increasingly spectacular. This parallels Jim Mercer's comments at the January meeting on the "bloat trouble with Java"; the trouble isn't with the language itself, rather that unthinking programmers see that there's an option to set the size of the VM to be "really big," and imagine that's a wise thing to do. Only to discover that since 7 other apps running on that server *also* had programmers that had the same idea, the server is now struggling because rather than them all fitting nicely into 256MB of memory, they're swapping (unnecessarily!) across 8GB of memory. The same thing has pretty evidently happened with the use of JavaScript in web applications. Each application behaves as if it was the only one using resources, and so, shockingly quickly, some bits of Facebook shared context (which is disturbing in some privacy-related senses) get to add up to a shocking level. An analogous answer to what happens with Java might be appropriate, namely for there to be restriction as to how much memory any given app gets to chew up. But that is mostly a "political" problem, and I'm not nearly sure how to get there. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marthter-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 18:19:22 2012 From: marthter-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (marthter) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:19:22 -0500 Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: <1a910810-f3b5-4fb3-bcf2-e5e77f5fb5b6@zimbra> References: <1a910810-f3b5-4fb3-bcf2-e5e77f5fb5b6@zimbra> Message-ID: <4F49262A.6050206@yahoo.ca> On 12-02-24 10:42 AM, Anthony Verevkin wrote: >> From: "Thomas Milne" >> I would LOVE to be part of building something like this, anyone know of >> anything like this locally? >> >> http://goo.gl/7Vnua > I was thinking about this kind of setup earlier and I would also like > to be a part of something like that. However I can see some serious > issues here: > > 1. Bandwidth. These guys are probably using 802.11g, 54Mbit, 2.4GHz. This > standard allows for 3 independent radio channels with maximum effective > bandwidth of 20Mbit each. 3 channels would be enough to create a basic mesh > so it's OK. If you upgrade to 802.11n but stay within one channel and still > have only one antenna (not using MIMO), your nominal bandwidth would be > 75Mbit, taking you to effective 30-40Mbit per channel, shared and > half-duplex, not to mention unstable. > > Provided that this is a mesh network and this becomes the maximum bandwidth > even in the bottleneck points (which turn out to become ``backbone''), I > would state that this network would not be good enough to allow web browsing. > As if only you allow users to browse the web, here comes youtube and the > whole network dies. But who wants the network without http nowadays? > > 2. Access to the roofs. Homeowners have the best access to put the antenna. > But also they are the ones with the worst antenna position, low above the > ground. People living in the hi-rise buildings either rent or are bound by > the condo rules that make it difficult to put the antenna in the best spot. > > 3. Internet access. The mesh network is a good way to interchange the > information, but the traffic should flow into the Big Internet at some point. > Toronto FreeNET probably might be a gateway for such a mesh network, but > then again they become the ISP. Yes, they do peer at TorIX, and the mesh > network would make the last mile free from Bell, but still Toronto FreeNET > is and ISP which abides the regulations. And what if you want to have the > alternative ISP? How you would balance between them? Would you put the BGP > full table into the mesh network? Well, the first Linksys router in the > chain is simply gonna die right away. > > 4. Ease of use. Is it going to be a network for all people or the network > ``for geeks only''? Network for all people should have the ease of connecting > (the end point should not be a part of the mesh, rather just connect to a > hub of the mesh network). This network would also need to have some phone > support service. If we are about to build the ``geeks only'' network, > this is fun thing as well, but the distance between the geeks in the city > might be a fun-breaker. > > So this is a nice thing to do, but it has a lot of caveats. If you have an > idea of how to overcome this, I'd be happy to join you. > > Regards, > Anthony I was looking into this a few months ago for a different (work related) purpose. I didn't get so far as to set up any tests (couldn't really find the "download here" link if I recall, or even download source.tgz). Anyway, this might be useful or at least worth further investigation, in the current context. Basically a glorified sneaker net, or moped net, but with small changes to the apps you get fairly usable wikis, e-mail, etc. Abstract TierStore is a distributed filesystem that simplifies the development and deployment of applications in challenged network environments, such as those in developing regions. For effective support of bandwidth-constrained and intermittent connectivity, it uses the Delay Tolerant Networking store-and-forward network overlay and a publish/subscribe-based multicast replication protocol. TierStore provides a standard filesystem interface and a single-object coherence approach to conflict resolution which, when augmented with application-specific handlers, is both sufficient for many useful applications and simple to reason about for programmers. In this paper, we show how these properties enable easy adaptation and robust deployment of applications even in highly intermittent networks and demonstrate the flexibility and bandwidth savings of our prototype with initial evaluation results. http://static.usenix.org/events/fast08/tech/full_papers/demmer/demmer_html/ http://tier.cs.berkeley.edu/wiki/index.php?title=Home http://citris-uc.org/research/projects/tierstore Cheers. Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 25 18:38:59 2012 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:38:59 -0500 Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: <1a910810-f3b5-4fb3-bcf2-e5e77f5fb5b6@zimbra> References: <1a910810-f3b5-4fb3-bcf2-e5e77f5fb5b6@zimbra> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Anthony Verevkin wrote: >> From: "Thomas Milne" >> I would LOVE to be part of building something like this, anyone know of >> anything like this locally? >> >> http://goo.gl/7Vnua > > I was thinking about this kind of setup earlier and I would also like > to be a part of something like that. However I can see some serious > issues here: > So this is a nice thing to do, but it has a lot of caveats. If you have an > idea of how to overcome this, I'd be happy to join you. You may be interested in some of the information the Pirate Party has collected: If a project gets underway, I'd be happy to make some introductions. After months of constitution reform, leadership elections and other restructuring, I suspect we'll be reactivating this topic in the not-too-distant future as well. -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 26 00:08:46 2012 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 10:08:46 +1000 (EST) Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224213716.GE13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Feb 2012, Christopher Browne wrote: > This parallels Jim Mercer's comments at the January meeting on the > "bloat trouble with Java"; the trouble isn't with the language itself, > rather that unthinking programmers see that there's an option to set > the size of the VM to be "really big," and imagine that's a wise thing Exactly. A few years ago I migrated a company's virtual systems from VMWare (slow) to OpenVZ (fast). Most of the systems were running Tomcat for development. OpenVZ applies strict resource constraints[1] to prevent containers (CTs) trampling on one another. These were a precursor to cgroups that are now integrated in to the kernel. During testing we found that Tomcat wouldn't start on a CTs with low memory constraints. We found that Tomcat was asking for but never using enormous amounts of ram. After tuning down the initial resource requirements of Tomcat it ran just fine under OpenVZ. OpenVZ was used at this company for years and, afaik, still is. I have the same browser resource issues that others are mentioning of course. Maybe it is time to apply for cgroups Hmm I wonder what would happen if I got cgroups to limit the brower's resource consumption. Apps are going to have to get better at living in an environment in which the OS says 'no' to resource requests more often. [1] Most problems people report with OpenVZ come from misunderstanding the resource limits. The key I found was to avoid hand tuning (while well documented this is a difficult and thankless process) and get 'vzsplit' to do the hard work. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December 1250) From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 26 01:56:15 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:56:15 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224213716.GE13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > Hmm I wonder what would happen if I got cgroups to limit the brower's > resource consumption. ?Apps are going to have to get better at living in an > environment in which the OS says 'no' to resource requests more often. In a somewhat different context, that's what the bufferbloat problem is about... We get network problems because there's a huge buffer accommodating large amounts of data requests. You get the problem that a lot of small network requests, stuck in between the huge ones, wind up timing out because the interface is busy transferring 5 minutes worth of pending requests. Things improve in that area when the OS says "no" more quickly and more often. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 26 21:16:15 2012 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 16:16:15 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224213716.GE13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120226211615.GA12587@waltdnes.org> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:08:46AM +1000, Robert Brockway wrote > I have the same browser resource issues that others are mentioning > of course. Maybe it is time to apply for cgroups > > Hmm I wonder what would happen if I got cgroups to limit the brower's > resource consumption. Apps are going to have to get better at living > in an environment in which the OS says 'no' to resource requests > more often. That would kill the browser. What the browser needs is to set limits for each individual tab. As an interim solution, I've taken to blocking www memory hogs... 1) I don't do Facebook, so I block it in iptables to kill the "like" button. The address blocks I know of are... 66.220.144.0/20 66.220.144.0 - 66.220.159.255 69.63.176.0/20 69.63.176.0 - 69.63.191.255 69.171.224.0/19 69.171.224.0 - 69.171.255.255 74.119.76.0/22 74.119.76.0 - 74.119.79.255 173.252.64.0/18 173.252.64.0 - 173.252.127.255 204.15.20.0/22 204.15.20.0 - 204.15.23.255 2) In /etc/hosts, I block a few specific "share" links... 127.0.0.2 edge.sharethis.com 127.0.0.2 platform.twitter.com 127.0.0.2 plusone.google.com The websites that you frequent may have different memory hogs. Use Firefox about:memory to find out which ones they are. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 27 15:01:49 2012 From: anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Anthony Verevkin) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:01:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438fb92d-894f-4845-993f-1c2971887dff@zimbra> > From: "Scott Elcomb" > >> From: "Thomas Milne" > >> I would LOVE to be part of building something like this, anyone > >> know of > >> anything like this locally? > >> > >> http://goo.gl/7Vnua > > > You may be interested in some of the information the Pirate Party has > collected: > > If a project gets underway, I'd be happy to make some introductions. > After months of constitution reform, leadership elections and other > restructuring, I suspect we'll be reactivating this topic in the > not-too-distant future as well. I just had a second thought about the mesh network. Setting aside the technical issues (which are obviously the most interesting to us), I would say the mesh network would only make sense if the significant amount of traffic would originate in the network and terminate in another part of the same network. With none of the points being fixed (like a datacenter) or else the link going to that datacenter would become a de-facto backbone. Would you guys have any suggestions on what kinds of applications such network could run? The ones where traffic would both originate and terminate in the Mesh. Say, there are 30-200 nodes in such network. Regards, Anthony -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 27 15:49:01 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:49:01 -0500 Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: <438fb92d-894f-4845-993f-1c2971887dff@zimbra> References: <438fb92d-894f-4845-993f-1c2971887dff@zimbra> Message-ID: <4F4BA5ED.4070103@the-wire.com> On 02/27/2012 10:01 AM, Anthony Verevkin wrote: > I just had a second thought about the mesh network. Setting aside the > technical issues (which are obviously the most interesting to us), I > would say the mesh network would only make sense if the significant > amount of traffic would originate in the network and terminate in another > part of the same network. With none of the points being fixed (like a > datacenter) or else the link going to that datacenter would become a > de-facto backbone. > > Would you guys have any suggestions on what kinds of applications such > network could run? The ones where traffic would both originate and > terminate in the Mesh. Say, there are 30-200 nodes in such network. I had thought Son of Fidonet. There is a real problem in keeping interest alive long enough to form a critical mass that's big enough to keep interest alive. The communities that we've formed in our current Global Village (GTALug, for example) are not line-of-sight communities. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 27 16:07:53 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:07:53 -0500 Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4BAA59.602@the-wire.com> On 02/24/2012 08:31 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > I've always suspected that the political process as currently > configured is fundamentally untrustworthy, and that the best methods > for preserving freedom are technical methods (a la Byron Sonne). I > would LOVE to be part of building something like this, anyone know of > anything like this locally? > > http://goo.gl/7Vnua > Apropos of which 1) What are the standard plugs/sockets and co-ax for connecting to the antenna jacks of consumer wifi routers? 2) Where can you get snap-on plastic lids for juice cans? Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 27 16:37:15 2012 From: anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Anthony Verevkin) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:37:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: <4F4BAA59.602-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4BAA59.602@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <97235db7-d560-4cdd-8e89-55794a00e528@zimbra> > From: "Mel Wilson" > > http://goo.gl/7Vnua > Apropos of which > > 1) What are the standard plugs/sockets and co-ax for connecting to > the antenna jacks of consumer wifi routers? Here is the website where you can find the most popular connectors: http://wireless.gumph.org/content/3/7/011-cable-connectors.html I would say, RP-SMA is the most standard. The popular Linksys WRT54 have RP-TNC. But no matter what the external connector is, or even if the router doesn't have an external antenna, if you disassemble it, you are most likely to find the MC connector on the motherboard. > 2) Where can you get snap-on plastic lids for juice cans? Emm.. On the juice cans maybe? ;) Can you send an image-link of what you are talking about? Regards, Anthony -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 27 17:25:39 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 12:25:39 -0500 Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: <97235db7-d560-4cdd-8e89-55794a00e528@zimbra> References: <97235db7-d560-4cdd-8e89-55794a00e528@zimbra> Message-ID: <4F4BBC93.9000606@the-wire.com> On 02/27/2012 11:37 AM, Anthony Verevkin wrote: From: "Mel Wilson" > Apropos of which >> 1) What are the standard plugs/sockets and co-ax for connecting to >> the antenna jacks of consumer wifi routers? > Here is the website where you can find the most popular connectors: > http://wireless.gumph.org/content/3/7/011-cable-connectors.html > > I would say, RP-SMA is the most standard. The popular Linksys WRT54 > have RP-TNC. But no matter what the external connector is, or even > if the router doesn't have an external antenna, if you disassemble > it, you are most likely to find the MC connector on the motherboard. > > >> 2) Where can you get snap-on plastic lids for juice cans? > Emm.. On the juice cans maybe? ;) Can you send an image-link of what > you are talking about? I got interested in cantennas, is what this is all about. Basically take a used can of some suitable size, with one end cut off, put a 1/4wave antenna 1/2wave from the closed end, and you beam your RF signal directionally out the other end. So you need to run cable from the router to the 1/4wave antenna -- the stuff in the page you cited seems just what I wanted. A purpose-built plastic cap to keep out weather would be the crowning touch. What I have found is that there are a bunch of standard can sizes that all don't quite fit each other. A juice can seems like it would be better than mediocre at 2.4GHz. Gatorade powder comes in a stubby metallized cardboard can with a recloseable lid that's just a few mil too big to close a juice can. In extremis, duct tape can make anything fit, and that might, finally, be the way to go, if the dollar stores don't have the right stuff. Thanks, Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 27 17:38:12 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 12:38:12 -0500 Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: <4F4BBC93.9000606-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <97235db7-d560-4cdd-8e89-55794a00e528@zimbra> <4F4BBC93.9000606@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <4F4BBF84.6070408@rogers.com> Mel Wilson wrote: > I got interested in cantennas, is what this is all about. Basically > take a used can of some suitable size, with one end cut off, put a > 1/4wave antenna 1/2wave from the closed end, and you beam your RF > signal directionally out the other end. So you need to run cable from > the router to the 1/4wave antenna -- the stuff in the page you cited > seems just what I wanted. When I first heard the name "Cantenna", this is what it referred to: http://www.orcadxcc.org/content/cantenna_va7jw.pdf I've had one for almost 40 years and they'd been available long before that. After I built the kit, I went to Shoppers Drug Mart and bought 4 quarts (yes, it was that long ago) of mineral oil to fill it. I wonder if the cashier thought I had a serious problem? ;-) I still have some of that oil, in the original jug, as I've never had any other need for it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 27 18:22:41 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:22:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: <4F4BBF84.6070408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <97235db7-d560-4cdd-8e89-55794a00e528@zimbra> <4F4BBC93.9000606@the-wire.com> <4F4BBF84.6070408@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1330366961.67063.YahooMailNeo@web113406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > When I first heard the name "Cantenna", this is what it referred to: > http://www.orcadxcc.org/content/cantenna_va7jw.pdf > > I've had one for almost 40 years and they'd been available long before > that. > > After I built the kit, I went to Shoppers Drug Mart and bought 4 quarts >(yes, it was that long ago) of mineral oil to fill it.? I wonder if the > cashier thought I had a serious problem?? ;-) > > I still have some of that oil, in the original jug, as I've never had > any other need for it. The cashier probably thought you had a massive sunburn. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 27 19:13:04 2012 From: anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Anthony Verevkin) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 14:13:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: <4F4BA5ED.4070103-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4BA5ED.4070103@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <84eb2a59-67ba-42f1-8a1d-35548787ceea@zimbra> > From: "Mel Wilson" > On 02/27/2012 10:01 AM, Anthony Verevkin wrote: > > Would you guys have any suggestions on what kinds of applications > > such > > network could run? The ones where traffic would both originate and > > terminate in the Mesh. Say, there are 30-200 nodes in such network. > > I had thought Son of Fidonet. There is a real problem in keeping > interest alive long enough to form a critical mass that's big enough > to > keep interest alive. The communities that we've formed in our > current > Global Village (GTALug, for example) are not line-of-sight > communities. > > Mel. How about the following idea, do you think it might be viable? Providing Free Internet access to the neighborhood. The network has three servers - 1) Web proxy, allowing access, 2) Email with web interface, available from both inside and outside, and 3) Bulletin board/Forums to discuss community matters. In order for the Web proxy to give you some free Internet you should register on the Bulletin board and join some discussion. Every message you post counts for the certain amount of traffic and certain amount of days it's valid. The Bulletin board is moderated to clean up the abusing messages and block the users who wrote them. Community websites like local schools, etc. can be made accessible with no registration. Email is always accessible from both inside and outside, but has limits for the amount of storage (which might be dynamically increased with time). Both email and Bulletin Board are showing local ads, the banners from the local restaurants, convenience stores and dry-cleaning services, etc. That's what pays for the expenses. If a person agrees to put a retransmitting station on his house he gets free internet with no obligations in exchange. Users would be encouraged to share the content, including the copyright materials, but this would not be accessible from outside which provides a certain level of protection against claims. Again, no copyright materials would be stored on the servers so the network would also not be held responsible. It is even possible to run a local torrent tracker to facilitate the sharing. The tracker can also calculate the amount of data you shared and that can also count toward the user's Internet traffic allowance. Once the network attracts enough interest, it might start growing independently. Regards, Anthony -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 01:48:32 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:48:32 -0500 Subject: [OT] Email from my domain goes to Hotfile junk Message-ID: <4F4C3270.7090808@rogers.com> I have had a number of models experience trouble in receiving email from my domain dawsonsphotography.com I use an inexpensive shared host, but the smtp server I use is actually rogers. It is routed by hotmail into their junk folder. Is there anything that I can do to make this less likely? Thanks Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 02:49:26 2012 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:49:26 -0500 Subject: [OT] Email from my domain goes to Hotfile junk In-Reply-To: <4F4C3270.7090808-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4C3270.7090808@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Stephen wrote: > I have had a number of models experience trouble in receiving email from > my domain dawsonsphotography.com > > I use an inexpensive shared host, but the smtp server I use is actually > rogers. > > It is routed by hotmail into their junk folder. > > Is there anything that I can do to make this less likely? > My wild guess is that it has something to do with SPF or DomainKeys or whatever the current preferred system is. Essentially, the Rogers SMTP server isn't the sanctioned/properly registered SMTP server for your domain, so your email is considered far more likely to be spam these days because your email domain and the server don't match. I don't know if it's possible to designate their server appropriately without their involvement. You could try using your web host's SMTP server. Presumably they've already set things up correctly for you. Or wait for a mail admin to reply... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 02:54:38 2012 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 02:54:38 +0000 Subject: [OT] Email from my domain goes to Hotfile junk In-Reply-To: References: <4F4C3270.7090808@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1634690220-1330397680-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1748140701-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> You can obviate this issue by using the SMTP server of your host as long as they've opened port 587 (the common port 25 alternate). This isn't blocked by Rogers (I use port 587 to send through my provider and use Rogers for Internet), so it ought to work for you. Check with your host to determine if they allow traffic on ports other than 25, as this is commonly blocked by ISPs for sending mail to servers outside their control. I agree that the likely cause for the problem is likely the mismatch between your SMTP server IP and the MX record for the domain, if one exists. Does this happen only with Hotmail? If not, it may be something in the message headers themselves causing the filters at Hotmail to tag your messages as bulk. Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network -----Original Message----- From: Andrej Marjan Sender: owner-tlug at ss.org Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:49:26 To: Reply-To: tlug at ss.orgSubject: Re: [TLUG]: [OT] Email from my domain goes to Hotfile junk On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Stephen wrote: > I have had a number of models experience trouble in receiving email from > my domain dawsonsphotography.com > > I use an inexpensive shared host, but the smtp server I use is actually > rogers. > > It is routed by hotmail into their junk folder. > > Is there anything that I can do to make this less likely? > My wild guess is that it has something to do with SPF or DomainKeys or whatever the current preferred system is. Essentially, the Rogers SMTP server isn't the sanctioned/properly registered SMTP server for your domain, so your email is considered far more likely to be spam these days because your email domain and the server don't match. I don't know if it's possible to designate their server appropriately without their involvement. You could try using your web host's SMTP server. Presumably they've already set things up correctly for you. Or wait for a mail admin to reply... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 02:56:21 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:56:21 -0500 Subject: [OT] Email from my domain goes to Hotfile junk In-Reply-To: References: <4F4C3270.7090808@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F4C4255.5070201@rogers.com> On 12-02-27 09:49 PM, Andrej Marjan wrote: > On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Stephen > wrote: > > I have had a number of models experience trouble in receiving > email from my domain dawsonsphotography.com > > > I use an inexpensive shared host, but the smtp server I use is > actually rogers. > > It is routed by hotmail into their junk folder. > > Is there anything that I can do to make this less likely? > > > My wild guess is that it has something to do with SPF or DomainKeys or > whatever the current preferred system is. Essentially, the Rogers SMTP > server isn't the sanctioned/properly registered SMTP server for your > domain, so your email is considered far more likely to be spam these > days because your email domain and the server don't match. I don't > know if it's possible to designate their server appropriately without > their involvement. > > You could try using your web host's SMTP server. Presumably they've > already set things up correctly for you. > > Or wait for a mail admin to reply... > Rogers. like most ISPs block SMTP ports to any IP except that of their own SMTP servers. Cuts down on spam from their IP ranges. So I can't connect to my domain host's SMTP server. I imagine this is very common. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 03:08:24 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:08:24 -0500 Subject: [OT] Email from my domain goes to Hotfile junk In-Reply-To: <4F4C4255.5070201-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4C3270.7090808@rogers.com> <4F4C4255.5070201@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F4C4528.1010905@dinamis.com> On 02/27/2012 09:56 PM, Stephen wrote: > Rogers. like most ISPs block SMTP ports to any IP except that of their > own SMTP servers. Cuts down on spam from their IP ranges. > > So I can't connect to my domain host's SMTP server. I imagine this is > very common. That is true only for port 25. Port 465 or 587, both of which are used for different types of authenticated smtp, are fine with Rogers. Many domains will block mail originating from the Rogers smtp servers treating the entire Rogers IP block as "dial-up". -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 03:11:45 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:11:45 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: <20120226211615.GA12587-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224213716.GE13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120226211615.GA12587@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4F4C45F1.5060309@dinamis.com> On 02/26/2012 04:16 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > 1) I don't do Facebook, so I block it in iptables to kill the "like" > button. The address blocks I know of are... > > 66.220.144.0/20 66.220.144.0 - 66.220.159.255 > 69.63.176.0/20 69.63.176.0 - 69.63.191.255 > 69.171.224.0/19 69.171.224.0 - 69.171.255.255 > 74.119.76.0/22 74.119.76.0 - 74.119.79.255 > 173.252.64.0/18 173.252.64.0 - 173.252.127.255 > 204.15.20.0/22 204.15.20.0 - 204.15.23.255 > > 2) In /etc/hosts, I block a few specific "share" links... > 127.0.0.2 edge.sharethis.com > 127.0.0.2 platform.twitter.com > 127.0.0.2 plusone.google.com The Ghostery plug-in will block all that and more. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 03:15:38 2012 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:15:38 -0500 Subject: Linux Flash going to be limited to Chrome In-Reply-To: References: <20120224192014.GB13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224210341.GC13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224212141.GD13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120224213716.GE13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F4C46DA.9020900@dinamis.com> On 02/25/2012 01:56 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Lennart Sorensen > | I expect my browser to not be wasting tons of rtam because a page is open. > > Yeah, me too. But our expectations are not fulfilled. > > Perhaps browsers should have a concept of suspended tabs: ones that > consume almost no resources. TooManyTabs does exactly what you describe. It has made Firefox usable again for me. Unfortunately, it's not as usable on Chrome. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 03:22:44 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:22:44 -0500 Subject: [OT] Email from my domain goes to Hotfile junk In-Reply-To: <1634690220-1330397680-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1748140701--AsA4DumeTO5B3jEAhgDvjWwcY1zWLNb1@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4C3270.7090808@rogers.com> <1634690220-1330397680-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1748140701-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <4F4C4884.3000503@rogers.com> On 12-02-27 09:54 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: > You can obviate this issue by using the SMTP server of your host as > long as they've opened port 587 (the common port 25 alternate). Thank you! 587 works Now I need to check out with the hotmail users. Stephen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 03:40:26 2012 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:40:26 -0500 Subject: [OT] Email from my domain goes to Hotfile junk In-Reply-To: <4F4C4884.3000503-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4C3270.7090808@rogers.com> <1634690220-1330397680-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1748140701-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4F4C4884.3000503@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F4C4CAA.9040006@rogers.com> On 12-02-27 10:22 PM, Stephen wrote: > On 12-02-27 09:54 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: >> You can obviate this issue by using the SMTP server of your host as >> long as they've opened port 587 (the common port 25 alternate). > Thank you! > > 587 works > > Now I need to check out with the hotmail users. > Just got a reply from a hotmail user. The email went to her inbox! Problem solved. Thanks all! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skrishnan-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 15:43:06 2012 From: skrishnan-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Srinivasan Krishnan) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:43:06 -0500 Subject: Job opening for experienced Linux sysadmins Message-ID: <1330443786.10474.5.camel@agni.home> Hello, Flightnetwork.com is looking for experienced Linux sysadmins. We have two positions available, both at our Oakville office. The details can be viewed at http://www.flightnetwork.com/pages/employment.shtml. Thanks. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 28 21:23:48 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 16:23:48 -0500 Subject: OT: laser printer repairs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4D45E4.5030101@ve3syb.ca> On 12-02-24 04:39 PM, Andrej Marjan wrote: > Does anybody know a reliable service shop in Toronto for Laserjets? [snip] > I'd really like to have someone with experience have a look at it and help > me determine if it's better to fix or replace it. I don't know of a place that repairs LaserJet printers. You could contact HP and see if they can tell you who handles repairs of their printers. With the prices of printers the way they are these days it tends to be cheaper to replace a unit instead of repairing it. It doesn't help to keep electronics out of landfill. I have a Xerox WorkCentre XE80 printer/scanner that needs new toner. As it would cost around $100 to get the replacement toner unit I wound up retiring the unit and replaced it with a new Samsung laser printer for $60. The new printer is faster, supports WiFI and new toner cartridges are about $65. The older Xerox printer will be looking for a new home. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 02:38:04 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 21:38:04 -0500 Subject: CUPS error: 'server-error-service-unavailable' Message-ID: Connected an MP250 to my Debian Unstable system, when I open the printer configuration dialogue to add a new printer, it shows the correct model in the list connected by USB. However, when I attempt click 'forward', it says it is searching for drivers and then fails with an error from CUPS 'server-error-service-unavailable'. I tried restarting cupsd and even restarting the machine, but I get the same error. Any tips on how to proceed? -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 03:04:34 2012 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:04:34 -0500 Subject: 6in4 ipv6 tunnel hosting Message-ID: <20120229030434.GA8564@watson-wilson.ca> Greetings, I am now in possession of a server with dual stack ipv4 and ipv6 connections. I even have a /64 block of ipv6's. I'd like to configure this host to act as a tunnel broker for some of my other hosts. I can find plenty of information on configuring a client to connect to a tunnel broker but nothing on how to configure the broker end. There is mention of using Openvpn but I suspect there is a more native way, something do to with protocol 41. Besides I do not require the encryption. Does anyone have any experience with this that they can share? -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 11:56:25 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:56:25 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... Message-ID: FYI : The Raspberry Pi, $35 computer is now on sale : http://www.raspberrypi.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 12:22:43 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 07:22:43 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4E1893.8060705@gmail.com> On 12-02-29 06:56 , Colin McGregor wrote: > FYI : > > The Raspberry Pi, $35 computer is now on sale : http://www.raspberrypi.org/ Looks like the local partner/branch of RS is Allied, . They're not quite set up for sales to Canada yet, but the good news is that there will be a larger production run than the first 10,000. ... oh please please please make the Model B have a BOOP-beep noise on startup. Would be the best homage evar. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 13:09:55 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:09:55 -0500 Subject: 6in4 ipv6 tunnel hosting In-Reply-To: <20120229030434.GA8564-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120229030434.GA8564@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4F4E23A3.3040204@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > Greetings, > > I am now in possession of a server with dual stack ipv4 and ipv6 > connections. I even have a /64 block of ipv6's. I'd like to configure > this host to act as a tunnel broker for some of my other hosts. I can > find plenty of information on configuring a client to connect to a > tunnel broker but nothing on how to configure the broker end. > > There is mention of using Openvpn but I suspect there is a more native > way, something do to with protocol 41. Besides I do not require the > encryption. > > Does anyone have any experience with this that they can share? > That a bit of a broad question. You can set up tunnels with the ip command. Also, at the moment, OpenVPN doesn't support IPv6 in routing mode. If you use a VPN, you should use IPSec, which does support it. You'll likely also need some means of assigning addresses, which is usually done with radvd. I don't know your level of IPv6 expertise, but I find "IPv6 Essentials" from O'Reilly to be an excellent reference: http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596100582 You might also post your questions in the forums at gogoNet: http://gogonet.gogo6.com BTW, I have a /56 subnet, which is over a trillion times the entire IPv4 address space. I've already used about a dozen of them. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 13:15:43 2012 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:15:43 -0500 Subject: 6in4 ipv6 tunnel hosting In-Reply-To: <4F4E23A3.3040204-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20120229030434.GA8564@watson-wilson.ca> <4F4E23A3.3040204@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120229131543.GA19495@watson-wilson.ca> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 08:09:55AM -0500, James Knott wrote: >That a bit of a broad question. You can set up tunnels with the ip >command. I have seen examples of the client side of this but never the server side. >of IPv6 expertise, but I find "IPv6 Essentials" from O'Reilly to be >an excellent reference: >http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596100582 I have it. It's very theoretical and not help for this type or practical work. Sincerely, -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 13:24:28 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:24:28 -0500 Subject: 6in4 ipv6 tunnel hosting In-Reply-To: <20120229131543.GA19495-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120229030434.GA8564@watson-wilson.ca> <4F4E23A3.3040204@rogers.com> <20120229131543.GA19495@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4F4E270C.2010605@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > I have it. It's very theoretical and not help for this type or > practical work. Try the gogoNet forums I mentioned. There's even one for Linux. I use their client on my firewall to get my IPv6 subnet. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 13:39:01 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:39:01 -0500 Subject: 6in4 ipv6 tunnel hosting In-Reply-To: <20120229030434.GA8564-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120229030434.GA8564@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4F4E2A75.5090803@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience with this that they can share? > One other thing, there's no reason why you couldn't get multiple subnets from gogoNet or he.net. IIRC, all you need is an email address to register each one. He.net hands out /48 subnets. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 14:55:41 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:55:41 -0500 Subject: 6in4 ipv6 tunnel hosting In-Reply-To: <20120229030434.GA8564-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120229030434.GA8564@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4F4E3C6D.5000100@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > I even have a /64 block of ipv6's. I'd like to configure > this host to act as a tunnel broker for some of my other hosts. Are those other hosts on the same LAN or remote sites? If on the same LAN, you could set up the server as a router. If different location, then you really don't want to split that /64 subnet. On IPv6, a /64 is supposed to be the smallest subnet, because the addresses are supposed to accommodate 64 bit MAC address (48 bit MACs are padded out to 64 bits by inserting FFFE in the middle). This means that if you split that /64, you will not be able to use the MAC to form the address and may run into issues with random number generated addresses. My /56 subnet can be split into 256 /64 subnets, which can then be routed elsewhere. The IP command should be able to set up a basic tunnel, using the SIT mode, which is 6in4 tunneling. I haven't had to use it, but it should be something along the lines of "IP tunnel add sit " with the addresses appropriate for each end. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 14:57:10 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:57:10 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: <4F4E1893.8060705-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4E1893.8060705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120229145710.GG13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 07:22:43AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Looks like the local partner/branch of RS is Allied, > . They're not quite set up for > sales to Canada yet, but the good news is that there will be a larger > production run than the first 10,000. > > ... oh please please please make the Model B have a BOOP-beep noise on > startup. Would be the best homage evar. Only if they make it optional. Some people want their electronics to shut up and stay unnoticed. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 16:32:44 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:32:44 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4E532C.7080503@ve3syb.ca> On 12-02-29 06:56 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > The Raspberry Pi, $35 computer is now on sale : http://www.raspberrypi.org/ Great! Now we just have to wait a little longer for them to be available in Canada. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 16:45:56 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:45:56 -0500 Subject: Amazing tablet demo Message-ID: <4F4E5644.4070806@rogers.com> It's in German, so enable subtitles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSq7D6aX4dI -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jpikul-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 17:29:58 2012 From: jpikul-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Jeffrey Pikul) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:29:58 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001801ccf707$c26ff290$474fd7b0$@com> Colin McGregor wrote: > > FYI : > > The Raspberry Pi, $35 computer is now on sale : > http://www.raspberrypi.org/ Premier Farnell has a Canadian affiliate that has a 30 day wait, non-cancellable, non-refundable order page: http://canada.newark.com/raspberry-pi/raspbrry-pcba/dp/83T1943 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 17:38:56 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:38:56 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: <20120229145710.GG13614-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4E1893.8060705@gmail.com> <20120229145710.GG13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F4E62B0.1060407@ss.org> On 02/29/2012 09:57 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 07:22:43AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >> Looks like the local partner/branch of RS is Allied, >> . They're not quite set up for >> sales to Canada yet, but the good news is that there will be a larger >> production run than the first 10,000. >> >> ... oh please please please make the Model B have a BOOP-beep noise on >> startup. Would be the best homage evar. > > Only if they make it optional. Some people want their electronics to > shut up and stay unnoticed. > To my knowledge the Debian image does not, and the Fedora Image will not. Additionally the board does not come with an SD card or an OS image preloaded. That is an exercise for the early adopter. The simple fact is not to treat this like a "Consumer Electronics" release. This bare hardware with expectation that it will be landing in the hands of hobbyists and developers. As stated on the website, this is to help grow the ecosystem and community experience in advance of the Education Release which Raspberry Pi's actual target market. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 17:42:08 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:42:08 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: <001801ccf707$c26ff290$474fd7b0$@com> References: <001801ccf707$c26ff290$474fd7b0$@com> Message-ID: <4F4E6370.8000206@ss.org> On 02/29/2012 12:29 PM, Jeffrey Pikul wrote: > Colin McGregor wrote: >> >> FYI : >> >> The Raspberry Pi, $35 computer is now on sale : >> http://www.raspberrypi.org/ > > Premier Farnell has a Canadian affiliate that has a 30 day > wait, non-cancellable, non-refundable order page: > > http://canada.newark.com/raspberry-pi/raspbrry-pcba/dp/83T1943 Jeff, good catch! I was wandering through Farnell's site at 2am and I couldn't locate their Canadian arm. I was worried I'd have to order through the gloabl Export site. That is now bookmarked for when supply eases and I do my bulk buy. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 18:19:52 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:19:52 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: <20120229145710.GG13614-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4E1893.8060705@gmail.com> <20120229145710.GG13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Only if they make it optional. ?Some people want their electronics to > shut up and stay unnoticed. Since the Raspberry Pi is so chock full of Acorn BBC Model B references (the name, the team, the [originally*] Acorn-designed ARM processor) it would've been a nice touch. Ah, the memories of turning on gang switch in the school computer lab, and having a room full of Beebs squawk into life ... cheers, Stewart *: I'll concede that there's very little in common with the instruction set sketched out by Sophie Wilson and used in the Acorn Archimedes, and the ARM9 in the RP, tho'. -- http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 18:23:23 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:23:23 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: References: <4F4E1893.8060705@gmail.com> <20120229145710.GG13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: ahhh, the memories of somebody accidentally bumping the gang-switch accompanied by moans of despair from users with unsaved work... :-) On Feb 29, 2012 10:20 AM, "Stewart Russell" wrote: > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > > > Only if they make it optional. Some people want their electronics to > > shut up and stay unnoticed. > > Since the Raspberry Pi is so chock full of Acorn BBC Model B > references (the name, the team, the [originally*] Acorn-designed ARM > processor) it would've been a nice touch. Ah, the memories of turning > on gang switch in the school computer lab, and having a room full of > Beebs squawk into life ... > > cheers, > Stewart > > *: I'll concede that there's very little in common with the > instruction set sketched out by Sophie Wilson and used in the Acorn > Archimedes, and the ARM9 in the RP, tho'. > > -- > http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 18:31:54 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:31:54 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: References: <4F4E1893.8060705@gmail.com> <20120229145710.GG13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F4E6F1A.4060008@rogers.com> Tyler Aviss wrote: > ahhh, the memories of somebody accidentally bumping the gang-switch > accompanied by moans of despair from users with unsaved work... :-) Many years ago, I was on a course for the Datapoint 2200. During the programming part of the course, I "accidentally" tripped over the power cord for someone else's terminal. ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datapoint_2200 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 29 18:46:21 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:46:21 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Launched... In-Reply-To: <4F4E6F1A.4060008-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F4E1893.8060705@gmail.com> <20120229145710.GG13614@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F4E6F1A.4060008@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F4E727D.9040206@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > Many years ago, I was on a course for the Datapoint 2200. I forgot to mention. The Datapoint 2200 was used in CN Rail's "TRACS" system, which tracked the cars in freight trains. The 2200 would connect to an IBM mainframe, in Montreal, using EBCDIC and had attached printers and card/punch reader (ASCII) and also remote terminals via serial port (Baudot). When a train was expected, the system would generate a print out, at both local and remote locations, and a stack of punch cards, with each card representing one freight car. The cards would be sorted into outgoing trains, along with new cards for loads originating in that yard. I maintained all that equipment as part of my job back then. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists