From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 1 15:51:57 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 11:51:57 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: GTALUG Meeting on Tuesday 10th April, 2012 at 7:30 pm In-Reply-To: References: <4F73BB50.9060205@the-wire.com> <4F73C3A6.3000701@ss.org> <4F7463D4.7050301@ss.org> Message-ID: http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf Title: Experimentation with Linux Mint LXDE, April 01, 2012 Purpose: To rapidly deploy current OS onto: (1) Old computers like year 1999 P3, 500 MHz, max 512 RAM (2) Apple Intel from 2006 to present (3) Apple Power PC (PPC), 1998 ? 2005. This was not achieved in this experiment. Apparatus: (1) Software I used: Linux Mint LXDE, Image for Linux, Bootit NG (all on 3 X 700 MB CD blanks) (2) Hardware: Pentium Duo MB, 1.5 GB RAM, 16GB flash drive, HDDs of 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 160 and 320 GB sizes (3) Services: Internet access: Ethernet and Wireless Method: (1) Downloaded and burned to CD, Image for Linux , http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/image?for?linux.htm (2) Downloaded and burned to CD, BootitNG from: http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootit?nextgeneration. htm. Bootit Bare Metal is the more recent version of Bootit NG: http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/Boot?Manager?Disk/BootIt?Next?Generation.shtml (3) I Downloaded and burned to CD, : Linux Mint LXDE, http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=60 (4) Installed Linux Mint LXDE on the hard disks as follows: 16 GB flash drive: Linux = 6 GB, swap = 3 GB, remainder = NTFS data partition 20 GB HDD: Linux = 6 GB, swap = 3 GB, remainder = NTFS data partition 30 GB HDD: Linux = 9 GB, swap = 5 GB, remainder = NTFS data partition 40 GB HDD: Linux = 12 GB, swap = 6 GB, remainder = NTFS data partition 60 GB HDD: Linux = 18 GB, swap = 9 GB, remainder = NTFS data partition 80 GB HDD: Linux = 24 GB, swap = 12 GB, remainder = NTFS data partition 160 GB HDD: Linux = 48 GB, swap = 24 GB, remainder = NTFS data partition 320 GB HDD: Linux = 96 GB, swap = 48 GB, remainder = NTFS data partition (5) I used BootitNG to deploy a NTFS data partition (I use for images of Windows) to the remaining free space. (6) In terminal I told Linux Mint 9 LXDE to auto mount the NTFS data partition sudo fdisk ?l id user1 sudo su echo "/dev/sda3 /media/My_Data ntfs defaults,umask=0022,uid=1000,gid=1000 0 0" >> /etc/fstab sudo reboot (7) Moved documents, downloads, music, pictures and videos folders to My_Data on data partition. I created a folder called My_Desktop and ISO in My_Data on data partition. (8) I told Firefox to NOT remember history and set default download path, Home/User/Desktop Set homepage to http://google.ca Added bookmark toolbars for: http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews, http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/transit.shtml, http://www.meetup.com/, http://kijiji.ca, http://express.paltalk.com/, http://www.facebook.com/, https://login.yahoo.com/config/login_verify2?&.src=ym, http://www.linkedin.com/ (9) In terminal I installed generic lucid drivers for wireless network adapters: sudo apt?get install linux?backports?modules?wireless?lucid?generic sudo apt?get update (10) I refreshed the synaptic package manager and marked for online update including the recommended and suggested software for the following: Adobe flash plugin 11, Acrobat reader, Acidrip, Efax, Gufw, Gparted, Gedit, Gnome?device?manager, Gnomesystem? monitor, K9 copy and Ripoff, upgraded libdvdcss2 (11) I researched a video editor for Linux and found Openshot and installed it from Firefox at: http://community.linuxmint.com/software/view/openshot (12) In terminal I installed Blender which functions with Openshot: sudo add?apt?repository ppa:openshot.developers/ppa sudo apt?get update sudo apt?get install Openshot blender (13) I researched and found Damnvid for downloading YouTube video and/or converting them to MP3 I installed Damnvid in terminal as follows: sudo add?apt?repository ppa:damnvid/ppa sudo apt?get update sudo apt?get install Damnvid (14) I updated and configured Damnvid to download MP3 to data partition (from converted YouTube video). (15) I researched and found Banshee for synching iPods and installed it in terminal: sudo add?apt?repository ppa:banshee?team/ppa sudo apt?get update sudo apt?get install banshee (16) Installed OpenOffice Light from a tar ball, OOoLight_1.0_100922_LinuxIntel_install_deb.tar.gz, obtained from http://download.ooolight.org/en as follows: mkdir /home/user1/tarsrc/ Using file manager, I copied file, OOoLight_1.0_100922_LinuxIntel_install_deb.tar.gz to tarsrc folder cd ./tarsrc tar ?zxvf OOoLight_1.0_100922_LinuxIntel_install_deb.tar.gz ls cd ./en?US/DEBS sudo dpkg ?i *.deb Finished installation by double?clicking on extracted file in /home/user1/Tar_Src/en?US/DEBS/desktopintegration called OoLight?debian?menus_1.0?10_all.deb (17) Deleted ./tarsrc (18) Emptied recycle bin (19) Installed Skype 2.2 from file, skype?ubuntu_2.2.0.35?1_i386.deb, at: http://hotfile.com/dl/121097168/6fb8e59/skype?ubuntu_2.2.0.35?1_i386.deb.html Doubled clicked on the Skype file and Skype installed automatically (20) Organized shortcuts to programs into a folder called stuff. Stuff folder was copied to desktop and home folder. (21) I deleted the bookmarks of the file manager and added a bookmark for Stuff, My_Data and My_Desktop. (22) I told Transmission to download to /media/My_Data/Downloads, Ripoff to rip tracks to /media/My_Data/music, Blender and K9 copy to rip DVD tracks to /media/My_Data/Videos, audio to ~/Music, ISO to ~/ISO (23) In Terminal I setup Gufw as follows: sudo su # obtain server's IP address SERVERIP=`hostname ??all?ip?addresses | cut ??fields 1 ??delimiter " "` # disable firewall sudo ufw disable # reset all firewall rules sudo ufw reset # set default rules: deny all incoming traffic, allow all outgoing traffic sudo ufw default deny incoming sudo ufw default allow outgoing # open port for SSH sudo ufw allow ssh # open port for Webmin sudo ufw allow webmin # open ports for Samba file sharing sudo ufw allow from 10.0.0.0/8 to $SERVERIP app Samba sudo ufw allow to 10.0.0.0/8 from $SERVERIP app Samba # open ports for Transmission?Daemon sudo ufw allow 9091 sudo ufw allow 20500:20599/tcp sudo ufw allow 20500:20599/udp # open port for MySQL # open ports for Lighttpd sudo ufw allow proto tcp from 10.0.0.0/8 to any port 3306 # sudo ufw allow ?Lighttpd Full? # open port for network time protocol (ntpd) sudo ufw allow ntp # enable firewall sudo ufw enable # list all firewall rules sudo ufw status verbose (24) Used Image for Linux to create image of entire hard disk into 1 file of type, tbi, and 1.5 GB in size. The Linux file system consumed less than 3.5 GB. Created LM9LXDE_16F, LM9LXDE_20, LM9LXDE_30, LM9LXDE_40, LM9LXDE_80, and LM9LXDE_160, LM9LXDE_320.tbi Results: (1) The images deployed with lightning speed, a mere 2 minutes to restore to target HDD and under 5 minutes to create and validate an image. Linux detects and installs hardware so amazingly fast! (2) On MacBook Pro 2006, Intel Celeron dual core 2 GHz I had to comment out reference to My_Data in etc/fstab to achieve boot on MacBook pro ~2006 Source: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MactelSupportTeam/AppleiSight?action=show&redirect=AppleiSight To install isight webcam on MacBook pro 2006: Download AppleUSBVideoSupport firmware from http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/332246/AppleUSBVideoSupport sudo apt?get install isight?firmware?tools su ?c "ift?extract ??apple?driver AppleUSBVideoSupport" Power off then turn on the computer. Worked with Cheese but webcam failed to work with Skype Everything else worked fine. See http://drpcdr.ca/frank_intel_franken_tosh/frank_intel_franken_tosh.html I also deployed my Linux image on a IBM P3, 500 MHz 512 RAM, on a HP Omni book 6000, P3 800 MHz 512 RAM and it played YouTube video by Ethernet flawlessly! I used BootitNG to paste an image of the Linux partition onto the NTFS data partition as a file called Backup1.img This will be used to rescue Linux in the future! (3) I don't believe in updating browsers especially online. Linux Mint 9 LXDE has Firefox 3.6. Conclusion: (1) Linux Mint 9 LXDE runs and deploys amazingly quickly on old PC hardware and onto Intel based Macs! (2) It is 100 percent compatible with Ubuntu, based on Lubuntu! (3) Linux requires hacking to get things working, especially printers and webcams On 3/30/12, charles chris wrote: > I would like to do a presentation on deploying Linux onto low spec and > Apple hardware! > > On 3/29/12, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> On 03/29/2012 02:27 AM, Ori Idan wrote: >>> And I thought that Canadians are more polite and not shouting things at >>> the face of that speaker. >>> I thought such things happen only where I come from (Israel). :-) >>> >> >> Bulls*!t >> >> It's not that we aren't rude from time to time, it's just that we are >> polite about being rude as well. >> >> There is also a difference between shouting and not knowing when to >> shut-up. It is that latter is what I've had to deal with on the >> occasions I've been a speaker. >> >> -- >> Scott Sullivan >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > -- > http://drpcdr.ca > http://jobcircle.ca > 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 1 20:13:19 2012 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 16:13:19 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: GTALUG Meeting on Tuesday 10th April, 2012 at 7:30 pm In-Reply-To: <4F7627AC.7080905-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F73BB50.9060205@the-wire.com> <20120330174246.GA5886@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120330175343.GA24176@yam.witteman.ca> <4F7627AC.7080905@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120401201319.GT19363@adb.ca> James Knott wrote: > I used to come to the meetings regularly, but stopped because of all the > hecklers interrupting the presentation. Maybe the GTALUG executive should invest in a SuperSoaker for use by the speaker at each meeting? Or would Nerf armament be more appropriate? An unarmed audience is a polite audience. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 02:09:45 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 22:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: funny business in phone standards Message-ID: The claim is that Apple is stacking the committee designing the next SIM form factor. Bell Canada is helping. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 01:48:10 2012 From: anthony-P5WJPa9AKEcsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Anthony Verevkin) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 21:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: "Thomas Milne" > I've always suspected that the political process as currently > configured is fundamentally untrustworthy, and that the best methods > for preserving freedom are technical methods (a la Byron Sonne). I > would LOVE to be part of building something like this, anyone know of > anything like this locally? > > http://goo.gl/7Vnua > I just found that similar networks are being built by HAM radio enthusiasts. If you are licensed (which means you've passed an exam) you can use the same 2.4 GHz bands with much higher power limits. You can even slightly go below the frequency of the channel 1 which can be done with Atheros-based wifi. http://kb9mwr.blogspot.com has a lot of information on the subject (specifically check the 2010 articles). It also mentions people in Wisconsin, Texas, San-Francisco and Italy building HAM radio data networks. HAM radio (both data and old-school voice) positions itself as a volunteer run network for emergency communications which is used for fun and experiments in all the other time. I didn't find any information on such networks being built in GTA, maybe it's worth asking the local HAM radio clubs. Anyway with an amateur license and access to high power equipment that it gives it is absolutely possible to build such network with just a few interested geeks from this mailing list. Regards, Anthony -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 13:46:29 2012 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 09:46:29 -0400 Subject: funny business in phone standards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 10:09 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The claim is that Apple is stacking the committee designing the next SIM > form factor. Bell Canada is helping. > That seems to be SOP in the telecom world. I vividly remember seeing a quote from one of the pioneers of the internet to the effect of "Telecom = Fraud", but haven't been able to find the reference since. Does anybody have the reference for that, or know who said it? I don't think it was Vint Cerf. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 14:09:13 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:09:13 -0400 Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F79B309.8080601@rogers.com> Anthony Verevkin wrote: > I just found that similar networks are being built by HAM radio > enthusiasts. If you are licensed (which means you've passed an exam) > you can use the same 2.4 GHz bands with much higher power limits. > You can even slightly go below the frequency of the channel 1 which > can be done with Atheros-based wifi. Amateur radio has had "mesh" networks for decades. Packet radio has been around for at least 30 years and has been used to carry TCP/IP. I used to regularly use packet radio, on the 2 metre band, back in the 80's & 90's. If you have an amateur radio license, you have your choice of several bands to use, along with much more power. 1 kilowatt transmitters are entirely legal for licenced radio amateurs. Even before packet on amateur radio, there was the University of Hawaii Aloha network, which used packets via radio links to connect campuses on the various islands. This network, BTW, was the inspiration for Bob Metcalfe, who co-invented Ethernet. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 14:13:51 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:13:51 -0400 Subject: funny business in phone standards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F79B41F.2010306@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The claim is that Apple is stacking the committee designing the next SIM > form factor. Bell Canada is helping. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists This is very reminissent of how Microsoft corrupted ISO, to ram through their OOXML "standard". Some standards boards do not allow patented methods, unless royalty free. A situation with RAMBUS comes to mind. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 14:38:15 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:38:15 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: GTALUG Meeting on Tuesday 10th April, 2012 at 7:30 pm In-Reply-To: <20120401201319.GT19363-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <4F73BB50.9060205@the-wire.com> <20120330174246.GA5886@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120330175343.GA24176@yam.witteman.ca> <4F7627AC.7080905@rogers.com> <20120401201319.GT19363@adb.ca> Message-ID: <4F79B9D7.8040001@ss.org> On 04/01/2012 04:13 PM, Anthony de Boer wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> I used to come to the meetings regularly, but stopped because of all the >> hecklers interrupting the presentation. > > Maybe the GTALUG executive should invest in a SuperSoaker for use by > the speaker at each meeting? Or would Nerf armament be more > appropriate? > > An unarmed audience is a polite audience. > Antony... you do not know what you have started here. You make this hard for me as I have so many Nerf guns choose from, including two fully automatic ones! -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 14:54:35 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:54:35 -0400 Subject: Cheap man's version of 8-bay disk array? In-Reply-To: <1333209560.70928.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOF+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1333209560.70928.YahooMailNeo@web113415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F79BDAB.8060609@ss.org> On 03/31/2012 11:59 AM, William Park wrote: > I'm running out of disk space, mainly because of backups. > What I need is something like > > Does anyone know any company selling just the circuit > board in ATX/mATX form factor? The device you listed is just a fancy case with a SATA port multiplier. Unfortunately you still need to connect this to a computer. There are certainly plenty of Fully equpiped NAS boxes that you and replace the internal OS one, both in ARM and x86 flavours. > > I can set up a backup server, but that requires motherboard, > cpu, ram, and OS, all of which I really don't want to deal > with. I already have case and power supply. All I want > to do is swap out the motherboard. If you are looking to just reuse a case and have the same "just a bunch of disks on port multiplier" it might be possible. The major issue I for see is that the port-multiplier boards are expecting to butt directly to the hard-drives instead of using Sata Cables. http://usa.chenbro.com/corporatesite/products_cat.php?pos=31 http://blog.backblaze.com/2009/09/01/petabytes-on-a-budget-how-to-build-cheap-cloud-storage/ http://blog.backblaze.com/2011/07/20/petabytes-on-a-budget-v2-0revealing-more-secrets/ > > Maybe I'm dreaming. If you can find a Port Multiplier that takes SATA cables on one end, and eSATA on the other, then maybe... But what you might save in a handful of dollars, you will pay vastly greater in your time. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 14:55:09 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:55:09 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: GTALUG Meeting on Tuesday 10th April, 2012 at 7:30 pm In-Reply-To: <20120401201319.GT19363-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <4F73BB50.9060205@the-wire.com> <20120330174246.GA5886@node1.opengeometry.net> <20120330175343.GA24176@yam.witteman.ca> <4F7627AC.7080905@rogers.com> <20120401201319.GT19363@adb.ca> Message-ID: <4F79BDCD.4030805@the-wire.com> On 04/01/2012 04:13 PM, Anthony de Boer wrote: > James Knott wrote: >> I used to come to the meetings regularly, but stopped because of all the >> hecklers interrupting the presentation. > Maybe the GTALUG executive should invest in a SuperSoaker for use by > the speaker at each meeting? Or would Nerf armament be more > appropriate? Proving the possibility of a Bayesian spam filter for in-person meetings. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 15:26:28 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 08:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cheap man's version of 8-bay disk array? In-Reply-To: <4F79BDAB.8060609-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <1333209560.70928.YahooMailNeo@web113415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F79BDAB.8060609@ss.org> Message-ID: <1333380388.62075.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > From: Scott Sullivan > ... > But what you might save in a handful of dollars, you will > pay vastly greater in your time. Since no one is paying for my time, it's free. :-) My issue with these devices is their crappy power supply. When they burn out, you can only pray they don't take the disks with them, which happened to me personally.? These devices are not cheap enough to be "disposable", and disks are expensive these days. The best solution I could find so far is and use ATX power supply for 12V/5A.? I would need to bolt multiple of these on to something non-combustible and well ventilated.? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 16:32:17 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 12:32:17 -0400 Subject: Activists creating decentralized mesh network that can't be blocked, filtered or silenced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Anthony Verevkin wrote: > > HAM radio (both data and old-school voice) positions itself as a > volunteer run network for emergency communications which is used > for fun and experiments in all the other time. Except with the small problem that any amateur radio transmission cannot be encrypted and that the messages be non-commercial and "of relatively little importance". So, if you're planning to send anything sensitive, it's not going out on the ham bands. (btw, it's not an acronym, so ham can be lower case. The etymology of the term is lost to time.) > I didn't find any information on such networks being built in GTA, > maybe it's worth asking the local HAM radio clubs. I know some folks who play with microwaves, but not of any particular network in the area. With affordable cell data, packet radio is almost dead, except for APRS, which is alive, well and sending tiny data bursts on the 2m band. -- http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 16:36:38 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 12:36:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Android tablet epub Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F79D596.4050802@ve3syb.ca> On 12-03-31 05:23 PM, Scott Allen wrote: > Unless you're in the dark. E-ink isn't generally back lit and needs > ambient light to be visible. Tablets are generally back lit (and > usually are hard to read in bright light, such as sunlight). Its the same with traditional (dead tree) books. I don't try reading them in the dark so I don't find having an eInk based reader is going to limit when I can read books. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 16:42:13 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 12:42:13 -0400 Subject: Cheap man's version of 8-bay disk array? In-Reply-To: <4F79BDAB.8060609-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <1333209560.70928.YahooMailNeo@web113415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F79BDAB.8060609@ss.org> Message-ID: <20120402164213.GQ10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 10:54:35AM -0400, Scott Sullivan wrote: > On 03/31/2012 11:59 AM, William Park wrote: > >I'm running out of disk space, mainly because of backups. > >What I need is something like > > > >Does anyone know any company selling just the circuit > >board in ATX/mATX form factor? > > The device you listed is just a fancy case with a SATA port > multiplier. Unfortunately you still need to connect this to a > computer. Yeah, might as well just get a nice PC case with enough drive bays instead and hook things up internally. > There are certainly plenty of Fully equpiped NAS boxes that you and > replace the internal OS one, both in ARM and x86 flavours. That's another option. > >I can set up a backup server, but that requires motherboard, > >cpu, ram, and OS, all of which I really don't want to deal > >with. I already have case and power supply. All I want > >to do is swap out the motherboard. > > If you are looking to just reuse a case and have the same "just a > bunch of disks on port multiplier" it might be possible. The major > issue I for see is that the port-multiplier boards are expecting to > butt directly to the hard-drives instead of using Sata Cables. > > http://usa.chenbro.com/corporatesite/products_cat.php?pos=31 > http://blog.backblaze.com/2009/09/01/petabytes-on-a-budget-how-to-build-cheap-cloud-storage/ > http://blog.backblaze.com/2011/07/20/petabytes-on-a-budget-v2-0revealing-more-secrets/ > > > > >Maybe I'm dreaming. > > If you can find a Port Multiplier that takes SATA cables on one end, > and eSATA on the other, then maybe... > > But what you might save in a handful of dollars, you will pay vastly > greater in your time. The second box on that page from mediasonic actually does hardware raid in the box and presents a single device to the system over either eSATA or USB3. They are quite nice. I have used the 4 bay version of that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 18:05:23 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Android tablet epub Reader In-Reply-To: <4F79D596.4050802-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4F79D596.4050802@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: | From: Kevin Cozens | On 12-03-31 05:23 PM, Scott Allen wrote: | > Unless you're in the dark. E-ink isn't generally back lit and needs | > ambient light to be visible. Tablets are generally back lit (and | > usually are hard to read in bright light, such as sunlight). | | Its the same with traditional (dead tree) books. I don't try reading them in | the dark so I don't find having an eInk based reader is going to limit when I | can read books. I'm currently reading a novel with my Kobos. I've tried the original E-Ink Kobo (newer E-Ink models have an improved display) and the Kobo Vox (7" Android tablet with LCD screen (102xx800; very nice AFFS+)). According to http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87110 the E-Ink Kobo specs are 800x600 but only 754x584 are usable. So far, I prefer the VOX when I read in bed and the E-Ink Kobo when I'm out of the house. - VOX's self-illumination is handy in bed. - the VOX gets considerably more text on a page, it is clearer, and page turns are faster - E-Ink's size, weight, and battery life are significant advantages on the road. - I wish I could turn off the VOX's boot chime - the VOX really does seem to have poor battery endurance. The E-Ink Kobo's battery is great. The VOX battery cannot even last very long in sleep and it doesn't do what the E-Ink one does: switch from sleep to off if left alone for a while. - for page turning, I actually prefer the mechanical switch of the E-Ink Kobo. Even though it makes an audible click. My VOX's touch sensing is a bit unreliable -- that may be a defect and it may be biasing me. - The VOX is a full Android tablet so you can google etc. in the middle of reading (if you are have WiFi available). Potentially handy when reading in bed and not, say, on the subway. - the E-Ink Kobo came with 100 public domain books in its ROM. I've actually read a couple. A nice bonus. The VOX has all sorts of hooks to make reading a social experience. I don't want that but others may find it fun. I don't recommend buying the VOX: at the moment, the Blackberry Playbook is roughly the same price and size but is a much better piece of hardware. Not surprising: the PlayBook is being sold at less than half the price point it was designed for. I assume that the Kobo reader software for the Playbook is reasonable. For reading novels and other plain, lightly formatted text, both Kobos are quite reasonable. For reading PDFs, I prefer the 10" tablets to the 7" one. My daughter actually reads PDFs on a Nokia N810 tablet with a 4" screen (800x480 pixels). She trims the margins before downloading. I DON'T like DRM. Last week I bought three books with DRM (a first). >From the Kobo store. They were so inexpensive that I consider them disposable, so I can live with DRM on them. The books? The Hunger Games trilogy, less than $1.50 each. The Kobo store has lots of Project Gutenberg books (free, no DRM) which is convenient. The Kobos and the Nokia run Linux. The PlayBook runs QNX. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 20:43:41 2012 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 16:43:41 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability Message-ID: http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/03/desktop-linux -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 21:41:12 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 17:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Sammy Lao | http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/03/desktop-linux I think that the observations are correct but the narative is wrong. - Linux distros are stable (CentOS, Debian Stable, Ubuntu LTS) OR exciting. He seems to think that he can have both, predictably and reliably. I seem to remember some serious quality control lapses in recent Ubuntu releases. Like it or not, that is the face of Linux these days. - "eliminating consumer choices can greatly reduce anxiety for shoppers." There are lots of distros and programs to choose from in the Linux world. How can you know if you are making or have made the right choice? Windows and OSX are much more take-it-or-leave-it propositions I happen to like the choice, but it does cost me time to keep up with them and decide how to go. - some wars are better lost than fought. Think of World War I: each side would have been better off if they had lost in August 1914 rather than fighting on until 1918. I experience this with some Linux problems: all can (in theory) be solved because I have access to the source code. But the cost may be worse than just accepting the problem. - Parts of the world are conspiring against Linux: + patented CODECs + standards mandating patented thingees. + markets mandating patented thingees. + MS Requirements on video card makers to keep certain parts secret + DRM. Linux and DRM don't mix well at all. Everything, including our government is going DRM. - people in positions of power in the Linux ecosystem falling in love with OSX, Windows, or some other ecosystem. + Gnome is currently annoying all its previous users with its push to simplicity and tablet style. On my 30" screen, I'm particularly annoyed. + Ubuntu Unity seems slightly worse to me. Shuttleworth seems to be trying to be like Jobs. Fair enough, it's his nickle. - mediocre video drivers were pretty functional until desktops put 3d demands on them. I think we're in a better place than 5 years ago but the payoff to me has been minor, disporportionate to the agony. I don't think that I intentionally use any 3d features. Kernel Mode Setting is part of the mix too. All that being said, I find the few times I use Windows to be a great burden. I don't use OSX. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 2 21:41:23 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 17:41:23 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Sammy Lao wrote: > http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/03/desktop-linux Well he certainly believes in recycling. I've seen every one of those arguments a thousand times in the last 10 years, and they're as true now as they were then. Trolling for page views, not much of any real substance. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 01:52:16 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 21:52:16 -0400 Subject: A Software Defined Radio for $11 (sort of...). Message-ID: This is something that is worth watching... Seems some DVB-T USB TV tuners can be used as software defined radios, and some of the tuners that will work in this role can be found for as little as $11 on e-Bay. Details to be seen here: http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr . It appears the software is not (yet) fit for prime time, but ... In other words a project that at present is worth keeping an eye on, even if it isn't yet to the point of being worth running out and getting one of those TV tuners... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 02:03:02 2012 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 22:03:02 -0400 Subject: A Software Defined Radio for $11 (sort of...). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, this is an interesting project. That URL doesn't work for me, for some reason. However, you could search through back issues of hackaday, it was described in the last 2 or 3 days. As I understand it, the frequency range is 65MHz up to something like 1.3GHz. So, no AM band, no MW amateur bands. Still... It's pretty amazing to see a garden-variety PC running a real time spectrum display and waterfall diagram off of something like a USB key. Peter > This is something that is worth watching... > > Seems some DVB-T USB TV tuners can be used as software defined radios, > and some of the tuners that will work in this role can be found for as > little as $11 on e-Bay. Details to be seen here: > http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr . > > It appears the software is not (yet) fit for prime time, but ... In > other words a project that at present is worth keeping an eye on, even > if it isn't yet to the point of being worth running out and getting > one of those TV tuners... > > > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 02:43:12 2012 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 22:43:12 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> On 2 Apr 2012 at 16:43, Sammy Lao wrote: > http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/03/desktop-linux > -- Well, he does mention Debian. I sympatised with much of his troubles, but what I did was rip out Ubuntu, which wasn't living up to expectation anymore, and installed Debian, which, while it is slightly dated, it is still reliable. For awhile, Ubuntu had me convinced that I didn't need my OS to absolutely and utterly stable. I thought I could put in some of the latest applications; live a little. But after a while, and on this point I agree with the writer, creators of OS'es like Ubuntu became over-zealous and broke a lot of things. But his problem is that he is using this idea to whitewash all other Linux distros, which is a bit unfair. Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 03:38:49 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 23:38:49 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:43 PM, wrote: > But after a > while, and on this point I agree with the writer, creators of OS'es > like Ubuntu became over-zealous and broke a lot of things. But his > problem is that he is using this idea to whitewash all other Linux > distros, which is a bit unfair. Well, he's putting together a story, optimizing its presentation so as to ensure maximum publication-worthiness, in the "maximizing controversy" sense, so it's pretty predictable that there will be a maximum of luridity. Historically, it hasn't just been Ubuntu that has gotten thus "over-zealous." Fedora has had its moments, and going back as far as when Red Hat 7.3 was aggressive about drawing in things I can barely remember anymore, but broke a lot of things on people. There's eminently good reason to *want* a distribution to be aggressive about drawing stuff in. Ubuntu has been using this with regards to supporting new devices ASAP, and that's rather important if people are trying to install it on a recent laptop. In contrast, Debian's relative conservatism can lead to people having to go searching for "bleeding edge" bits in order to support whatever new stuff is on their motherboard that isn't in a stable kernel. I ran into that very problem when I installed Debian on my present desktop machine at the office - I *needed* to pull a wildly newer kernel than was in Stable to support the NIC that was Dell's flavour of the week. I was able to work it out, but not everyone can, and some might use such challenges to justify arguing that Debian's old and broken. I'm suspicious that Ubuntu may have gotten so aggressive with stuff like Unity that it may well hurt them. There's a lot of stuff "up", between Unity, Wayland, new init alternatives, and it's debatable whether: - Being an old stick-in-the-mud risks being left behind. And a LOT of people left Slackware over such. - Adopters of new things are lemmings leaping towards the edges of cliffs. Precedent exists, in both directions. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 06:45:56 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 02:45:56 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: Linux needs to expand it's user base by allowing manufacturers of laptops to load Linux on them. Then there would be more support for Linux drivers especially for peripherals like webcams, network and standalone printers. On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:43 PM, wrote: > > > But after a > > while, and on this point I agree with the writer, creators of OS'es > > like Ubuntu became over-zealous and broke a lot of things. But his > > problem is that he is using this idea to whitewash all other Linux > > distros, which is a bit unfair. > > Well, he's putting together a story, optimizing its presentation so as > to ensure maximum publication-worthiness, in the "maximizing > controversy" sense, so it's pretty predictable that there will be a > maximum of luridity. > > Historically, it hasn't just been Ubuntu that has gotten thus > "over-zealous." Fedora has had its moments, and going back as far as > when Red Hat 7.3 was aggressive about drawing in things I can barely > remember anymore, but broke a lot of things on people. > > There's eminently good reason to *want* a distribution to be > aggressive about drawing stuff in. Ubuntu has been using this with > regards to supporting new devices ASAP, and that's rather important if > people are trying to install it on a recent laptop. > > In contrast, Debian's relative conservatism can lead to people having > to go searching for "bleeding edge" bits in order to support whatever > new stuff is on their motherboard that isn't in a stable kernel. I > ran into that very problem when I installed Debian on my present > desktop machine at the office - I *needed* to pull a wildly newer > kernel than was in Stable to support the NIC that was Dell's flavour > of the week. I was able to work it out, but not everyone can, and > some might use such challenges to justify arguing that Debian's old > and broken. > > I'm suspicious that Ubuntu may have gotten so aggressive with stuff > like Unity that it may well hurt them. > > There's a lot of stuff "up", between Unity, Wayland, new init > alternatives, and it's debatable whether: > - Being an old stick-in-the-mud risks being left behind. And a LOT of > people left Slackware over such. > - Adopters of new things are lemmings leaping towards the edges of cliffs. > > Precedent exists, in both directions. > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 12:30:48 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 08:30:48 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <4F7AED78.4000300@rogers.com> charles chris wrote: > Linux needs to expand it's user base by allowing manufacturers > of laptops to load Linux on them. > Then there would be more support for Linux drivers especially for > peripherals like webcams, network and standalone printers. > ???? What planet have you been living on? Linux is freely available to any manufacture that wants to include it. The big problem is Microsoft has a long history of trying to kill off any competition and even resorting to extortion and other illegal means to do it. They have lost in court a few times on this, yet they keep on doing it. Take a look at what happen with Microsoft vs OS/2, DR-DOS, Word Perfect, ODF, Android, Linux and much, much more. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 13:01:59 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:01:59 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 2:45 AM, charles chris wrote: > Linux needs to expand it's user base by allowing manufacturers of?laptops to > load Linux on them. > Then there would be more support for Linux drivers especially for > peripherals like webcams, network and standalone printers. I don't want to be over-rude, but are you on crack or something? Linux is already allowing manufacturers of laptops to load Linux on them. (There's something questionable about the identification of agents in that sentence, but I'll leave that...) The notable expression of proof of such is that Linux is used as a major component of the Android platform, and there are all sorts of manufacturers of phones, tablets, and other such widgets that are busily porting Linux to run on their devices. Vendors found participating in the Linux+Android-stuff toolchain to be worthwhile; Samsung, HTC, and Motorola are certainly selling piles of devices as a consequence. There's nothing preventing manufacturers of laptops from doing much the same. The pre-existing use of the GPL with Linux expressly enables such. That, despite having conspicuous permission (that gets widely expressed, in the case of the Android-running devices), we don't see terribly many vendors selling laptops running Linux suggests that other things are going on. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 13:34:07 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:34:07 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:43 PM, ? wrote: > >> But after a >> while, and on this point I agree with the writer, creators of OS'es >> like Ubuntu became over-zealous and broke a lot of things. But his >> problem is that he is using this idea to whitewash all other Linux >> distros, which is a bit unfair. > > Well, he's putting together a story, optimizing its presentation so as > to ensure maximum publication-worthiness, in the "maximizing > controversy" sense, so it's pretty predictable that there will be a > maximum of luridity. 100% absolutely correct. There is nothing in that article that isn't a complete waste of effort to read. It might as well be an advertisement for soap. In general, the claim that adoption of Linux has _anything_ to do with the technical quality of the OS is utter nonsense. It is nothing to do with this or that package management scheme or number of packages, it is a simple matter of politics and economics. Think about it in reverse. Is Microsoft on top because it has some technical advantage? Clearly, no. It has an effective salesman with the right political connections. > Historically, it hasn't just been Ubuntu that has gotten thus > "over-zealous." ?Fedora has had its moments, and going back as far as > when Red Hat 7.3 was aggressive about drawing in things I can barely > remember anymore, but broke a lot of things on people. > > There's eminently good reason to *want* a distribution to be > aggressive about drawing stuff in. ?Ubuntu has been using this with > regards to supporting new devices ASAP, and that's rather important if > people are trying to install it on a recent laptop. > > In contrast, Debian's relative conservatism can lead to people having > to go searching for "bleeding edge" bits in order to support whatever > new stuff is on their motherboard that isn't in a stable kernel. ?I > ran into that very problem when I installed Debian on my present > desktop machine at the office - I *needed* to pull a wildly newer > kernel than was in Stable to support the NIC that was Dell's flavour > of the week. ?I was able to work it out, but not everyone can, and > some might use such challenges to justify arguing that Debian's old > and broken. Why you would run Stable on an office desktop, I'm not sure. A lot of people misunderstand Debian's naming scheme, which is not surprising. We get used to things being a certain way, so when we use a new tool and it uses different procedures and processes we react as if it is broken. Debian has a very clear and logical package management system which will allow people to accomplish almost anything they wish on any hardware with zero headaches. The fact that someone didn't know how that works is not the fault of Debian. > I'm suspicious that Ubuntu may have gotten so aggressive with stuff > like Unity that it may well hurt them. > > There's a lot of stuff "up", between Unity, Wayland, new init > alternatives, and it's debatable whether: > - Being an old stick-in-the-mud risks being left behind. ?And a LOT of > people left Slackware over such. > - Adopters of new things are lemmings leaping towards the edges of cliffs. > > Precedent exists, in both directions. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 14:12:23 2012 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 10:12:23 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > > In general, the claim that adoption of Linux has _anything_ to do with > the technical quality of the OS is utter nonsense. It is nothing to do > with this or that package management scheme or number of packages, it > is a simple matter of politics and economics. Think about it in > reverse. Is Microsoft on top because it has some technical advantage? > Clearly, no. It has an effective salesman with the right political > connections. > All else notwithstanding, Microsoft does have a technical advantage that is important to non-technical businesses: outstanding backwards compatibility at the ABI level. What they've achieved isn't pretty or cheap to do, but it is a technical feat. It allows people to run crufty old in-house tools whose source has been lost many years ago on the latest version of Windows, and it allows them to run crufty old enterprise monster systems similarly, without having to upgrade everything all at once. This is a big deal: you don't have to spend a penny to remediate the compatibility of your crappy in-house tool which just happens to be central to an important business process. From a business perspective, the money spent to remediate that tool merely for technical compatibility, is wasted. It gives the business no return. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 14:27:28 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 10:27:28 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <4F7B08D0.60003@rogers.com> Andrej Marjan wrote: > All else notwithstanding, Microsoft does have a technical advantage > that is important to non-technical businesses: outstanding backwards > compatibility at the ABI level. Windows has a long history of breaking things with new versions. Try running drivers for an older device that worked in an earlier version of Windows. Often they will not work. Same with many apps. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 15:14:54 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 11:14:54 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 02:45:56AM -0400, charles chris wrote: > Linux needs to expand it's user base by allowing manufacturers of laptops > to load Linux on them. > Then there would be more support for Linux drivers especially for > peripherals like webcams, network and standalone printers. Until it becomes more profitable for them to do so, they won't. Too many companies are getting kickbacks for trialware on windows installs these days to the point where the cost of the license to microsoft is less than the kickbacks from norton, mcaffe, etc, possibly even the 30 day trials of microsoft office you often see. There isn't any money in installing linux for them to make, so why bother. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 15:19:39 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 11:19:39 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: <20120403151454.GR10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 02:45:56AM -0400, charles chris wrote: >> Linux needs to expand it's user base by allowing manufacturers of laptops >> to load Linux on them. >> Then there would be more support for Linux drivers especially for >> peripherals like webcams, network and standalone printers. > Until it becomes more profitable for them to do so, they won't. > > Too many companies are getting kickbacks for trialware on windows installs > these days to the point where the cost of the license to microsoft is > less than the kickbacks from norton, mcaffe, etc, possibly even the 30 > day trials of microsoft office you often see. > > There isn't any money in installing linux for them to make, so why bother. > Further, Microsoft has a history of using "strong arm" tactics against manufactures who dared to install other than Windows on PCs. Read up on how they refused to license Windows 95 to IBM at the same rate as other manufacturers, as long as IBM sold computers with OS/2. Or how they put bogus errors in Windows, when it was run on DR-DOS or per CPU licenses whether a computer was shipped with Windows or not. It's a long list of what they've done to block competition. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 15:28:00 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 11:28:00 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Andrej Marjan wrote: > All else notwithstanding, Microsoft does have a technical advantage that is > important to non-technical businesses: outstanding backwards compatibility > at the ABI level. Linux includes an ABI layer that emulates systems going back as far as SCO. I seem to recall one of our members having some involvement in implementing that. :-) > What they've achieved isn't pretty or cheap to do, but it is a technical > feat. It allows people to run crufty old in-house tools whose source has > been lost many years ago on the latest version of Windows, and it allows > them to run crufty old enterprise monster systems similarly, without having > to upgrade everything all at once. It's nice, when it works. OS/2 was generally better at doing that; OS/2 "Warp" did a pretty fine job of emulating Windows 3.1, and was sufficiently good at that as to undermine the market for companies to actually write applications for OS/2. "Why bother with a native app, when you can just target Windows 3.1?" I don't think Microsoft has come anywhere near that level of compatibility. > This is a big deal: you don't have to spend a penny to remediate the > compatibility of your crappy in-house tool which just happens to be central > to an important business process. From a business perspective, the money > spent to remediate that tool merely for technical compatibility, is wasted. > It gives the business no return. In practice, there's a pretty hefty risk of Windows apps breaking between versions of Windows. It may have been less for Vista versus Windows 7 than it has been in the past; that's more a matter of the existing ABIs being sufficiently functional that Microsoft didn't need to make breakage-causing changes than anything else. The company that has actually demonstrated *enormous* competence in this area is IBM, where it's pretty likely that there are still "mouldy old 1401 decks" still running today on Z-Series machines via a series of emulation layers (e.g. - 360 microcode emulator to run the 1401 code, then PPC microcode emulator to run the 360 microcode.) That would be 50-year-back emulation. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 16:14:59 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 12:14:59 -0400 Subject: IETF attendees re-engineer hotel's Wi-Fi Message-ID: <4F7B2203.6060708@rogers.com> An interesting article for us techie types. http://www.itworldcanada.com/news/ietf-attendees-re-engineer-hotels-wi-fi/145164?sub=146611&utm_source=146611&utm_medium=comminfra&utm_campaign=enews -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 16:30:24 2012 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 19:30:24 +0300 Subject: IETF attendees re-engineer hotel's Wi-Fi In-Reply-To: <4F7B2203.6060708-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7B2203.6060708@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 7:14 PM, James Knott wrote: > An interesting article for us techie types. > > http://www.itworldcanada.com/**news/ietf-attendees-re-** > engineer-hotels-wi-fi/145164?**sub=146611&utm_source=146611&** > utm_medium=comminfra&utm_**campaign=enews< > http://www.itworldcanada.com/**news/ietf-attendees-re-** > engineer-hotels-wi-fi/145164?**sub=146611&utm_source=146611&** > utm_medium=comminfra&utm_**campaign=enews > > > > Did they get free nights after re-engineering the hotel's network? :-) -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 18:05:08 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 14:05:08 -0400 Subject: IETF attendees re-engineer hotel's Wi-Fi In-Reply-To: <4F7B2203.6060708-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7B2203.6060708@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:14 PM, James Knott wrote: > An interesting article for us techie types. > > http://www.itworldcanada.com/news/ietf-attendees-re-engineer-hotels-wi-fi/145164?sub=146611&utm_source=146611&utm_medium=comminfra&utm_campaign=enews > I thought the workaround involving suspending a cell phone from the bathroom ceiling to forward signals to a laptop was pretty awesome! -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 18:41:32 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 14:41:32 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: <4F7B150B.4060102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 11:19:39AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Further, Microsoft has a history of using "strong arm" tactics > against manufactures who dared to install other than Windows on PCs. > Read up on how they refused to license Windows 95 to IBM at the same > rate as other manufacturers, as long as IBM sold computers with > OS/2. Or how they put bogus errors in Windows, when it was run on > DR-DOS or per CPU licenses whether a computer was shipped with > Windows or not. It's a long list of what they've done to block > competition. Oh I know. I have read it all over the years. But these days they don't even have to do that since there are 3rd parties giving companies incentives to keep installing windows only. It's a sad market state. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 20:15:44 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 16:15:44 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: <20120403184132.GS10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 11:19:39AM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> Further, Microsoft has a history of using "strong arm" tactics >> against manufactures who dared to install other than Windows on PCs. >> Read up on how they refused to license Windows 95 to IBM at the same >> rate as other manufacturers, as long as IBM sold computers with >> OS/2. Or how they put bogus errors in Windows, when it was run on >> DR-DOS or per CPU licenses whether a computer was shipped with >> Windows or not. It's a long list of what they've done to block >> competition. > Oh I know. I have read it all over the years. > > But these days they don't even have to do that since there are 3rd > parties giving companies incentives to keep installing windows only. > > It's a sad market state. > They're still at it. http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2012/03/microsoft-redeploys-ooxml-in-o.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 21:20:30 2012 From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 17:20:30 -0400 Subject: Udev and systemd to merge Message-ID: Relevant article - https://lwn.net/Articles/490413/ -- Sadiq S http://asininetech.com https://launchpad.net/~staticsafe https://github.com/staticsafe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 3 22:01:13 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 18:01:13 -0400 Subject: Failure Notice Message-ID: <4F7B7329.2030209@ve3syb.ca> Sending this message again as it bounced the first time with the error: : No MX or A records for ss.org Possibly some sort of DNS glitch. ----- On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Ivan Avery Frey > http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-review,3155.html Thank you for the link. It was a good review. The more I read about Gnome 3 the less I am inclined to use it. I don't want to "upgrade" my machine to a version of distro that uses it and have to spend time customizing it to get it to where it is close to what I am used to under Gnome 2. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 4 06:08:03 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 02:08:03 -0400 Subject: Fedora 16 and Gnome 3 Tested and Reviewed Message-ID: <4F7BE543.70909@ve3syb.ca> Apologies. Sending this message one last time with the proper subject line. ----- On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Ivan Avery Frey > http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-review,3155.html Thank you for the link. It was a good review. The more I read about Gnome 3 the less I am inclined to use it. I don't want to "upgrade" my machine to a version of distro that uses it and have to spend time customizing it to get it to where it is close to what I am used to under Gnome 2. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 4 16:08:30 2012 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:08:30 -0400 Subject: Fedora 16 and Gnome 3 Tested and Reviewed In-Reply-To: <4F7BE543.70909-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7BE543.70909@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:08 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > Apologies. Sending this message one last time with the proper subject line. > > ----- > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Ivan Avery Frey >> >> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-review,3155.html > > > Thank you for the link. It was a good review. The more I read about Gnome 3 > the less I am inclined to use it. I don't want to "upgrade" my machine to a > version of distro that uses it and have to spend time customizing it to get > it to where it is close to what I am used to under Gnome 2. > As has been widely and thoroughly reported, Gnome3 comes with a Gnome Classic alternative that can be selected from the login screen. It is identical to Gnome 2.x. There is no need for the hysterical reactions people are having to Gnome 3, it is entirely optional. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 5 04:30:13 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora 16 and Gnome 3 Tested and Reviewed In-Reply-To: References: <4F7BE543.70909@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: | From: Thomas Milne | As has been widely and thoroughly reported, Gnome3 comes with a Gnome | Classic alternative that can be selected from the login screen. It is | identical to Gnome 2.x. There is no need for the hysterical reactions | people are having to Gnome 3, it is entirely optional. This does not seem to be the case on my Fedora 16 systems. My session manager offers GNOME or Xfce. If I installed more, I could choose more (eg. KDE). I seem to remember that if you cripple your video driver so that it does not support 3d stuff, Gnome 3 falls back to "GNOME Classic". This isn't hard to do but seems dumb. And it certainly isn't the way forward -- Classic mode is not being maintained and video acceleration is going to be simulated for hardware without support. I am using Fedora 16 GNOME3 at the moment. I'm giving it a try. So far it is a very minor pain. I'd prefer it to go away but not enough to do anything. I find Ubuntu's Unity a bit more annoying. I expect it will be more fun in a couple of months when Fedora 17 comes out. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 5 04:50:10 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thinkpad Android Tablet blow out Message-ID: Scott Sullivan showed me his Thinkpad Android Tablet after a recent TLUG meeting. It is a 10" iPad-like Android tablet. But there are some interesting things about it + you can get a stylus for it. This is a much more accurate tool than your finger or a capacitive stylus. With some models it is bundled. Otherwise it is $30 or $40. This is potentionally very very useful. + There seems to be a firesale at the moment (starting alst week). NCIX is selling the 32G model, with a stylus and case, for $350. + Lenovo promises that this model will be upgraded to Ice Cream Sandwich (Android 4.0) + solidly built for the business crowd. - this model is probably about to disappear given the price. Since I don't detect market excitement, I suspect that there may be no replacement. After all, Lenovo has other higher profile tablet lines. - the next generation of tablets ought to have much higher resolution if Apple's lead is followed. - this model is heavier than other 10" tablets - this model seems to have odd battery management. There are claims that it uses significant power when asleep. - I don't know what useful software exploits the stylus well. If you want to draw, this is probably wonderful. If you want to cursively enter text (I do), I think that there is no reliable software. But I could be wrong. - The most sought-after stylus-expoiting software is Microsoft OneNote but I think that the non-Window versions are not as useful. Scott: any thoughts? Can you tell us how you like and use the stylus (I know you showed me)? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 5 14:05:30 2012 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 10:05:30 -0400 Subject: Thinkpad Android Tablet blow out In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7DA6AA.5060105@ss.org> On 04/05/2012 12:50 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Scott Sullivan showed me his Thinkpad Android Tablet after a recent > TLUG meeting. It is a 10" iPad-like Android tablet. But there are > some interesting things about it [...] > - I don't know what useful software exploits the stylus well. If you > want to draw, this is probably wonderful. If you want to cursively > enter text (I do), I think that there is no reliable software. But > I could be wrong. > > - The most sought-after stylus-expoiting software is Microsoft OneNote > but I think that the non-Window versions are not as useful. > > > Scott: any thoughts? Can you tell us how you like and use the stylus > (I know you showed me)? There are many applications that exploit the stylus, Levono is actually maintaining an App Store specifically for this device. My current favourite is Quill [1] (which I recently had a bug fixed for this device). The pen is pressure sensitive and reasonably responsive with accuracy I haven't seen on capacitive only device. The hardware buttons are also nice to have, including one to inhibit rotation which I really really like having. [1]: http://code.google.com/p/android-quill/ -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 5 16:07:33 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:07:33 -0400 Subject: Fedora 16 and Gnome 3 Tested and Reviewed In-Reply-To: References: <4F7BE543.70909@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <4F7DC345.8070304@ve3syb.ca> On 12-04-04 12:08 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > As has been widely and thoroughly reported, Gnome3 comes with a Gnome > Classic alternative that can be selected from the login screen. It is > identical to Gnome 2.x. There is no need for the hysterical reactions > people are having to Gnome 3, it is entirely optional. That would be good. I don't recall reading that. Ubuntu used to offer a classic mode but that was supposed to have been dropped as of the lastest (current) release.. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 5 16:27:12 2012 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 19:27:12 +0300 Subject: Fedora 16 and Gnome 3 Tested and Reviewed In-Reply-To: <4F7DC345.8070304-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7BE543.70909@ve3syb.ca> <4F7DC345.8070304@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 12-04-04 12:08 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > >> As has been widely and thoroughly reported, Gnome3 comes with a Gnome >> Classic alternative that can be selected from the login screen. It is >> identical to Gnome 2.x. There is no need for the hysterical reactions >> people are having to Gnome 3, it is entirely optional. >> > > That would be good. I don't recall reading that. Ubuntu used to offer a > classic mode but that was supposed to have been dropped as of the lastest > (current) release.. Ubuntu offers classic mode since they moved to Unity, however this classic mode only resembles the older interface with few changes in the top row, there is no way to put widgets on this row is it was possible in Gnome 2.x -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 5 16:48:05 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 12:48:05 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: <4F7B5A70.5020408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> Message-ID: The usage of Linux can be greatly increased by providing an easy deployment method to computer stores, recyclers and non profits like Free Geek Toronto and Computers for schools in Mississauga. Many computer stores do NOT load Windows on used computers because they cannot afford the license fees. Recyclers and non profit organizations like Computers for Schools in Mississauga and Reboot Canada should deploy Linux onto the computers they donate or sell. Also, good support is needed to help people with Linux boxes install peripherals. I believe my method of deploying operating systems onto standalone computers is most efficient. See http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf On 4/3/12, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 11:19:39AM -0400, James Knott wrote: >>> Further, Microsoft has a history of using "strong arm" tactics >>> against manufactures who dared to install other than Windows on PCs. >>> Read up on how they refused to license Windows 95 to IBM at the same >>> rate as other manufacturers, as long as IBM sold computers with >>> OS/2. Or how they put bogus errors in Windows, when it was run on >>> DR-DOS or per CPU licenses whether a computer was shipped with >>> Windows or not. It's a long list of what they've done to block >>> competition. >> Oh I know. I have read it all over the years. >> >> But these days they don't even have to do that since there are 3rd >> parties giving companies incentives to keep installing windows only. >> >> It's a sad market state. >> > They're still at it. > http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2012/03/microsoft-redeploys-ooxml-in-o.html > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 5 17:23:02 2012 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 13:23:02 -0400 Subject: Fedora 16 and Gnome 3 Tested and Reviewed In-Reply-To: References: <4F7BE543.70909@ve3syb.ca> <4F7DC345.8070304@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On the other side of the coin, Mageia (with Cauldron), openSUSE (Factory) and Fedora (Rawhide) provide the latest and greatest (full) GNOME 3 experience, with Mageia usually getting the jump on new packages. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 5 17:30:12 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 13:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: charles chris | The usage of Linux can be greatly increased by providing an easy | deployment method to computer stores, recyclers and non profits like | Free Geek Toronto and Computers for schools in Mississauga. This is the second message where you seem to be saying: 1) "what Linux needs is X" 2) as if that were the answer to the problems listed in the Economist column 3) where X is already the case Perhaps you need to phrase your answers in the form of a question "Does Linux have X?". As I understand it, Free Geek does deploy Linux on their used computers. | Many computer stores do NOT load Windows on used computers because | they cannot afford the license fees. I don't know. Used computers aren't that common in stores -- new computers are so inexpensive now and old computers are usually weaker / obsolete. There are a few places that sell off-lease computers. They don't load OSes because it is labour intensive (off lease computers that I've bought usually have stickers with Windows licenses). | Recyclers and non profit | organizations like Computers for Schools in Mississauga and Reboot | Canada should deploy Linux onto the computers they donate or sell. I think that they do. It scares Microsoft enough that they have a program for cheap or free licenses for some operations like this just to crowd out Linux. | Also, good support is needed to help people with Linux boxes install | peripherals. Labour intensive! These days, skilled labour to deal with that kind of random minutae would seriously increase the cost of a used computer. The arithmetic of recycling most things is like this. When producing a computer in the first place, the runs are 10k to a million (pure guess), resulting in economies of scale. With recycling computers, you are lucky if you get any run at all. Think of Walmart vs Value Village -- the run lengths have drastic effects. The hardest computers to deal with are the most worthless: the oldest. Although I use computers that are a dozen years old, it makes no practical sense to redeploy a machine older than perhaps four years old. As a hobby, the rules are different (my oldest hobby computer is approaching 40 years old; older if you count my sliderules). There are stores that sell used Macs. I think that this is viable because 1) the Mac world has much less diversity than the PC world 2) Macs retain their value much more than PCs 3) the stores selling used computers gain an edge selling new ones since they can offer to take the old ones in trade. | I believe my method of deploying operating systems onto standalone | computers is most efficient. See http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf A pretty strong claim. Since you haven't even enumerated let alone discussed other methods, I find that hard to credit. Do you know the other methods? Heard of Kickstart? PXE booting? Live Fedora or Ubuntu CDs? And there are plenty more. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 5 20:05:51 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 16:05:51 -0400 Subject: Fedora 16 and Gnome 3 Tested and Reviewed In-Reply-To: References: <4F7BE543.70909@ve3syb.ca> <4F7DC345.8070304@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <4F7DFB1F.7020109@ve3syb.ca> On 12-04-05 12:27 PM, Ori Idan wrote: > Ubuntu offers classic mode since they moved to Unity, however this classic > mode only resembles the older interface with few changes in the top row, > there is no way to put widgets on this row is it was possible in Gnome 2.x The first version of Ubuntu that included Unity had a "classic mode. They also announced they would be dropping classic mode in the following release. Unless they recanted on this, no more Gnome 2 out of the box. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 8 00:52:24 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 20:52:24 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> Message-ID: Well I am going to do my part to help deploy Linux. However, I need the help of others. I envision weekly deployments onto 2 dozen machines. That's 1, 248 deployments annually. If all local groups could match this pace then 1 million Linux deployments is possible annually nationally or throughout North America. I believe weekly 10am - 10pm, 12 hour shifts should produce 24 Linux deployments onto computers brought in by the general public. These Linux deployments would be offered as free computer repairs. That's 1 million new Linux users each year! So far I have deployed Linux onto 4 computers (1 mac and 3 PCs) belonging to 4 different paying customers. Feedback so far has been positive! Remember my image of Linux is barely 30 days old! Another high growth usage market would be Africa, the Caribbean, China, India, etc. On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 1:30 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: charles chris > > | The usage of Linux can be greatly increased by providing an easy > | deployment method to computer stores, recyclers and non profits like > | Free Geek Toronto and Computers for schools in Mississauga. > > This is the second message where you seem to be saying: > > 1) "what Linux needs is X" > > 2) as if that were the answer to the problems listed in the Economist > column > > 3) where X is already the case > > Perhaps you need to phrase your answers in the form of a question > "Does Linux have X?". > > As I understand it, Free Geek does deploy Linux on their used > computers. > > | Many computer stores do NOT load Windows on used computers because > | they cannot afford the license fees. > > I don't know. Used computers aren't that common in stores -- new > computers are so inexpensive now and old computers are usually weaker > / obsolete. > > There are a few places that sell off-lease computers. They don't load > OSes because it is labour intensive (off lease computers that I've > bought usually have stickers with Windows licenses). > > | Recyclers and non profit > | organizations like Computers for Schools in Mississauga and Reboot > | Canada should deploy Linux onto the computers they donate or sell. > > I think that they do. It scares Microsoft enough that they have a > program for cheap or free licenses for some operations like this just > to crowd out Linux. > > | Also, good support is needed to help people with Linux boxes install > | peripherals. > > Labour intensive! > > These days, skilled labour to deal with that kind of random minutae > would seriously increase the cost of a used computer. > > The arithmetic of recycling most things is like this. When producing > a computer in the first place, the runs are 10k to a million (pure > guess), resulting in economies of scale. With recycling computers, you are > lucky if you get any run at all. Think of Walmart vs Value Village -- > the run lengths have drastic effects. > > The hardest computers to deal with are the most worthless: the oldest. > Although I use computers that are a dozen years old, it makes no > practical sense to redeploy a machine older than perhaps four years > old. As a hobby, the rules are different (my oldest hobby computer is > approaching 40 years old; older if you count my sliderules). > > There are stores that sell used Macs. I think that this is viable because > > 1) the Mac world has much less diversity than the PC world > > 2) Macs retain their value much more than PCs > > 3) the stores selling used computers gain an edge selling new ones > since they can offer to take the old ones in trade. > > | I believe my method of deploying operating systems onto standalone > | computers is most efficient. See http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf > > A pretty strong claim. Since you haven't even enumerated let alone > discussed other methods, I find that hard to credit. > > Do you know the other methods? Heard of Kickstart? PXE booting? Live > Fedora or Ubuntu CDs? And there are plenty more. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 8 01:46:05 2012 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 21:46:05 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> Message-ID: <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> While I applaud the scale of the vision you put forth, I do see a number of issues that would arise as a result of these deployments, of which three of the most pertinent [in my mind at least] are noted below. 1. Training - who is going to ensure that the end users are familiar enough with Linux to ensure they continue to use it, and don't revert to Windows/Mac? 2. Support - please provide details on the individuals willing to provide ongoing support for 1248 Linux deployments per year. 3. Compatibility - many programs released today, for which users may or may not have paid money, are developed specifically for a particular platform. Sure, it may be possible to show them that free alternatives are superior to the closed source versions they've used, but they will be resistant to such knowledge. While I think that your plan could work in general, it's not bloody likely going to do so because, really, most users are accustomed to Windows or Mac OS. As a result, even if you do deploy Linux as much as expected, there's nothing to prevent an individual user [or large groups of users] from migrating back to an alternate [i.e. more comfortable for them] operating system. Given the propensity of individuals to resist drastic change, I sincerely doubt such action would have lasting effect, on the scale you've envisioned. I see no problem with trying it, of course, I simply think that it won't reach the proportions you may expect. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of charles chris Sent: April-07-12 8:52 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability Well I am going to do my part to help deploy Linux. However, I need the help of others. I envision weekly deployments onto 2 dozen machines. That's 1, 248 deployments annually. If all local groups could match this pace then 1 million Linux deployments is possible annually nationally or throughout North America. I believe weekly 10am - 10pm, 12 hour shifts should produce 24 Linux deployments onto computers brought in by the general public. These Linux deployments would be offered as free computer repairs. That's 1 million new Linux users each year! So far I have deployed Linux onto 4 computers (1 mac and 3 PCs) belonging to 4 different paying customers. Feedback so far has been positive! Remember my image of Linux is barely 30 days old! Another high growth usage market would be Africa, the Caribbean, China, India, etc. On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 1:30 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | From: charles chris | The usage of Linux can be greatly increased by providing an easy | deployment method to computer stores, recyclers and non profits like | Free Geek Toronto and Computers for schools in Mississauga. This is the second message where you seem to be saying: 1) "what Linux needs is X" 2) as if that were the answer to the problems listed in the Economist column 3) where X is already the case Perhaps you need to phrase your answers in the form of a question "Does Linux have X?". As I understand it, Free Geek does deploy Linux on their used computers. | Many computer stores do NOT load Windows on used computers because | they cannot afford the license fees. I don't know. Used computers aren't that common in stores -- new computers are so inexpensive now and old computers are usually weaker / obsolete. There are a few places that sell off-lease computers. They don't load OSes because it is labour intensive (off lease computers that I've bought usually have stickers with Windows licenses). | Recyclers and non profit | organizations like Computers for Schools in Mississauga and Reboot | Canada should deploy Linux onto the computers they donate or sell. I think that they do. It scares Microsoft enough that they have a program for cheap or free licenses for some operations like this just to crowd out Linux. | Also, good support is needed to help people with Linux boxes install | peripherals. Labour intensive! These days, skilled labour to deal with that kind of random minutae would seriously increase the cost of a used computer. The arithmetic of recycling most things is like this. When producing a computer in the first place, the runs are 10k to a million (pure guess), resulting in economies of scale. With recycling computers, you are lucky if you get any run at all. Think of Walmart vs Value Village -- the run lengths have drastic effects. The hardest computers to deal with are the most worthless: the oldest. Although I use computers that are a dozen years old, it makes no practical sense to redeploy a machine older than perhaps four years old. As a hobby, the rules are different (my oldest hobby computer is approaching 40 years old; older if you count my sliderules). There are stores that sell used Macs. I think that this is viable because 1) the Mac world has much less diversity than the PC world 2) Macs retain their value much more than PCs 3) the stores selling used computers gain an edge selling new ones since they can offer to take the old ones in trade. | I believe my method of deploying operating systems onto standalone | computers is most efficient. See http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf A pretty strong claim. Since you haven't even enumerated let alone discussed other methods, I find that hard to credit. Do you know the other methods? Heard of Kickstart? PXE booting? Live Fedora or Ubuntu CDs? And there are plenty more. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 8 02:10:07 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 22:10:07 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> Message-ID: Hey! Linux is for people who live on Facebook and YouTube. They download videos, songs, copy and make DVD, burn audio CD, perform basic picture and video editing, create resume, etc. Conduct research on the Internet They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam: We need hacks here! Linux is NOT for graphic artists/desktop publishers/printers, video editors Linux is NOT for tax preparers, financial services people Linux is NOT for engineers who use Autocad Linux is NOT for doctors and lawyers Linux is NOT for the near blind who need ZoomText! On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: > While I applaud the scale of the vision you put forth, I do see a number > of issues that would arise as a result of these deployments, of which three > of the most pertinent [in my mind at least] are noted below.**** > > ** ** > > **1. **Training ? who is going to ensure that the end users are > familiar enough with Linux to ensure they continue to use it, and don?t > revert to Windows/Mac?**** > > **2. **Support ? please provide details on the individuals willing > to provide ongoing support for 1248 Linux deployments per year.**** > > **3. **Compatibility ? many programs released today, for which > users may or may not have paid money, are developed specifically for a > particular platform. Sure, it may be possible to show them that free > alternatives are superior to the closed source versions they?ve used, but > they will be resistant to such knowledge.**** > > ** ** > > While I think that your plan could work in general, it?s not bloody likely > going to do so because, really, most users are accustomed to Windows or Mac > OS. As a result, even if you do deploy Linux as much as expected, there?s > nothing to prevent an individual user [or large groups of users] from > migrating back to an alternate [i.e. more comfortable for them] operating > system.**** > > ** ** > > Given the propensity of individuals to resist drastic change, I sincerely > doubt such action would have lasting effect, on the scale you?ve > envisioned. I see no problem with trying it, of course, I simply think > that it won?t reach the proportions you may expect.**** > > ** ** > > Alex Gabriel**** > > Dimensia Design Studio**** > > alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org**** > > ** ** > > *From:* owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] *On Behalf Of *charles > chris > *Sent:* April-07-12 8:52 PM > *To:* tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > *Subject:* Re: [TLUG]: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux > usability**** > > ** ** > > Well I am going to do my part to help deploy Linux. However, I need the > help of others. > > I envision weekly deployments onto 2 dozen machines. That's 1, 248 > deployments annually. If all local groups could match this pace then 1 > million Linux deployments is possible annually nationally or throughout > North America. > > I believe weekly 10am - 10pm, 12 hour shifts should produce 24 Linux > deployments onto computers brought in by the general public. > These Linux deployments would be offered as free computer repairs. > > That's 1 million new Linux users each year! > > So far I have deployed Linux onto 4 computers (1 mac and 3 PCs) belonging > to 4 different paying customers. Feedback so far has been positive! > > Remember my image of Linux is barely 30 days old! > > Another high growth usage market would be Africa, the Caribbean, China, > India, etc.**** > > On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 1:30 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier > wrote:**** > > | From: charles chris **** > > > | The usage of Linux can be greatly increased by providing an easy > | deployment method to computer stores, recyclers and non profits like > | Free Geek Toronto and Computers for schools in Mississauga.**** > > This is the second message where you seem to be saying: > > 1) "what Linux needs is X" > > 2) as if that were the answer to the problems listed in the Economist > column > > 3) where X is already the case > > Perhaps you need to phrase your answers in the form of a question > "Does Linux have X?". > > As I understand it, Free Geek does deploy Linux on their used > computers.**** > > > | Many computer stores do NOT load Windows on used computers because > | they cannot afford the license fees.**** > > I don't know. Used computers aren't that common in stores -- new > computers are so inexpensive now and old computers are usually weaker > / obsolete. > > There are a few places that sell off-lease computers. They don't load > OSes because it is labour intensive (off lease computers that I've > bought usually have stickers with Windows licenses).**** > > > | Recyclers and non profit > | organizations like Computers for Schools in Mississauga and Reboot > | Canada should deploy Linux onto the computers they donate or sell.**** > > I think that they do. It scares Microsoft enough that they have a > program for cheap or free licenses for some operations like this just > to crowd out Linux.**** > > > | Also, good support is needed to help people with Linux boxes install > | peripherals.**** > > Labour intensive! > > These days, skilled labour to deal with that kind of random minutae > would seriously increase the cost of a used computer. > > The arithmetic of recycling most things is like this. When producing > a computer in the first place, the runs are 10k to a million (pure > guess), resulting in economies of scale. With recycling computers, you are > lucky if you get any run at all. Think of Walmart vs Value Village -- > the run lengths have drastic effects. > > The hardest computers to deal with are the most worthless: the oldest. > Although I use computers that are a dozen years old, it makes no > practical sense to redeploy a machine older than perhaps four years > old. As a hobby, the rules are different (my oldest hobby computer is > approaching 40 years old; older if you count my sliderules). > > There are stores that sell used Macs. I think that this is viable because > > 1) the Mac world has much less diversity than the PC world > > 2) Macs retain their value much more than PCs > > 3) the stores selling used computers gain an edge selling new ones > since they can offer to take the old ones in trade.**** > > > | I believe my method of deploying operating systems onto standalone > | computers is most efficient. See http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf**** > > A pretty strong claim. Since you haven't even enumerated let alone > discussed other methods, I find that hard to credit. > > Do you know the other methods? Heard of Kickstart? PXE booting? Live > Fedora or Ubuntu CDs? And there are plenty more.**** > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists**** > > > > > -- > http://drpcdr.ca > http://jobcircle.ca > 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327**** > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 8 02:15:48 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2012 22:15:48 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> Message-ID: <4F80F4D4.6090700@rogers.com> charles chris wrote: > They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam: We need hacks here! Google Talk works for video chat. No need for Skype. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 8 02:17:43 2012 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 22:17:43 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> Message-ID: <000301cd152d$c89768d0$59c63a70$@com> Actually I beg to differ with your assertions. Linux is an operating system, which can be applied to many uses. What you're saying is that the people that you've noted, such as engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc., would not benefit from using Linux. In fact, I feel that these are the target market that developers should be seeking to ensure wider adoption. In other words, Linux is only for high school kids and those without real work to do on their computer. If that's the case, then I'll stop using it immediately, since it seems that I have no real use for Linux. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of charles chris Sent: April-07-12 10:10 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability Hey! Linux is for people who live on Facebook and YouTube. They download videos, songs, copy and make DVD, burn audio CD, perform basic picture and video editing, create resume, etc. Conduct research on the Internet They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam: We need hacks here! Linux is NOT for graphic artists/desktop publishers/printers, video editors Linux is NOT for tax preparers, financial services people Linux is NOT for engineers who use Autocad Linux is NOT for doctors and lawyers Linux is NOT for the near blind who need ZoomText! On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: While I applaud the scale of the vision you put forth, I do see a number of issues that would arise as a result of these deployments, of which three of the most pertinent [in my mind at least] are noted below. 1. Training - who is going to ensure that the end users are familiar enough with Linux to ensure they continue to use it, and don't revert to Windows/Mac? 2. Support - please provide details on the individuals willing to provide ongoing support for 1248 Linux deployments per year. 3. Compatibility - many programs released today, for which users may or may not have paid money, are developed specifically for a particular platform. Sure, it may be possible to show them that free alternatives are superior to the closed source versions they've used, but they will be resistant to such knowledge. While I think that your plan could work in general, it's not bloody likely going to do so because, really, most users are accustomed to Windows or Mac OS. As a result, even if you do deploy Linux as much as expected, there's nothing to prevent an individual user [or large groups of users] from migrating back to an alternate [i.e. more comfortable for them] operating system. Given the propensity of individuals to resist drastic change, I sincerely doubt such action would have lasting effect, on the scale you've envisioned. I see no problem with trying it, of course, I simply think that it won't reach the proportions you may expect. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of charles chris Sent: April-07-12 8:52 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability Well I am going to do my part to help deploy Linux. However, I need the help of others. I envision weekly deployments onto 2 dozen machines. That's 1, 248 deployments annually. If all local groups could match this pace then 1 million Linux deployments is possible annually nationally or throughout North America. I believe weekly 10am - 10pm, 12 hour shifts should produce 24 Linux deployments onto computers brought in by the general public. These Linux deployments would be offered as free computer repairs. That's 1 million new Linux users each year! So far I have deployed Linux onto 4 computers (1 mac and 3 PCs) belonging to 4 different paying customers. Feedback so far has been positive! Remember my image of Linux is barely 30 days old! Another high growth usage market would be Africa, the Caribbean, China, India, etc. On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 1:30 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | From: charles chris | The usage of Linux can be greatly increased by providing an easy | deployment method to computer stores, recyclers and non profits like | Free Geek Toronto and Computers for schools in Mississauga. This is the second message where you seem to be saying: 1) "what Linux needs is X" 2) as if that were the answer to the problems listed in the Economist column 3) where X is already the case Perhaps you need to phrase your answers in the form of a question "Does Linux have X?". As I understand it, Free Geek does deploy Linux on their used computers. | Many computer stores do NOT load Windows on used computers because | they cannot afford the license fees. I don't know. Used computers aren't that common in stores -- new computers are so inexpensive now and old computers are usually weaker / obsolete. There are a few places that sell off-lease computers. They don't load OSes because it is labour intensive (off lease computers that I've bought usually have stickers with Windows licenses). | Recyclers and non profit | organizations like Computers for Schools in Mississauga and Reboot | Canada should deploy Linux onto the computers they donate or sell. I think that they do. It scares Microsoft enough that they have a program for cheap or free licenses for some operations like this just to crowd out Linux. | Also, good support is needed to help people with Linux boxes install | peripherals. Labour intensive! These days, skilled labour to deal with that kind of random minutae would seriously increase the cost of a used computer. The arithmetic of recycling most things is like this. When producing a computer in the first place, the runs are 10k to a million (pure guess), resulting in economies of scale. With recycling computers, you are lucky if you get any run at all. Think of Walmart vs Value Village -- the run lengths have drastic effects. The hardest computers to deal with are the most worthless: the oldest. Although I use computers that are a dozen years old, it makes no practical sense to redeploy a machine older than perhaps four years old. As a hobby, the rules are different (my oldest hobby computer is approaching 40 years old; older if you count my sliderules). There are stores that sell used Macs. I think that this is viable because 1) the Mac world has much less diversity than the PC world 2) Macs retain their value much more than PCs 3) the stores selling used computers gain an edge selling new ones since they can offer to take the old ones in trade. | I believe my method of deploying operating systems onto standalone | computers is most efficient. See http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf A pretty strong claim. Since you haven't even enumerated let alone discussed other methods, I find that hard to credit. Do you know the other methods? Heard of Kickstart? PXE booting? Live Fedora or Ubuntu CDs? And there are plenty more. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 8 05:51:24 2012 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 01:51:24 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 10:10 PM, charles chris wrote: > > They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam:? We need hacks here! I use Skype with an internal webcam on linux regularly... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 8 16:02:39 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 12:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> Message-ID: | From: charles chris | Hey! Linux is for people who live on Facebook and YouTube. They download | videos, songs, copy and make DVD, burn audio CD, perform basic picture and | video editing, create resume, etc. Currently most of those tasks require the use of patented CODECs. You cannot legally distribute those freely (for one or two meanings of "free"). So this is decidedly not a safe baseline niche. There are ways around this problem. Android has done it. But this has come at the cost of changing the nature of community, something I would not like. | They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam: We need hacks here! Skype is now owned by Microsoft. How long do you think that they will keep the Linux client going? | Linux is NOT for graphic artists/desktop publishers/printers, video editors | Linux is NOT for tax preparers, financial services people | Linux is NOT for engineers who use Autocad | Linux is NOT for doctors and lawyers | Linux is NOT for the near blind who need ZoomText! I agree that there are barriers here, but there are also opportunities. The first approximation of who will use Linux is who now uses Linux. Drastic changes in market may come from drastic changes in Linux. For example, Android is a drastic change and it has created a large number of Linux (kernel) users. But it hasn't had much impact on traditional Linux users -- few spinoff benefits (no network effect, no new applications). Example: many appliances run Linux inside (routers, TV sets, set-top-boxes, cameras, ...). Big deal. The GPL has forced some of those to be more open, a benefit to the appliance owners but not so much to the Linux community. Example: Palm/HP WebOS. This might have promise if the Linux community picks up the (dropped)ball and runs with it. I'd like that but I don't expect it to happen. Example: OLPC. That's an open project so sharing with mainline Linux distros is quite possible. But there seems to have been hardly any spin-off benefits to Linux. Sugar (the OLPC distro) is as easy as pie to add to a Fedora system. I've done it on my desktop, but never use the result. Even though I'm a Logo fan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 9 10:24:53 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 06:24:53 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [u-u] Unix Unanimous meeting - Wed 11 Apr 2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Unix Unanimous Webmaster Date: Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 12:01 AM Subject: [u-u] Unix Unanimous meeting - Wed 11 Apr 2012 To: u-u-nUbHFpetmNumKAeH2fHhIti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org The next meeting of Unix Unanimous will be held at 6:45 pm on Wednesday 11 April 2012, in room BA 2179 in the Bahen Centre for Information Technology at 40 St. George Street, on the University of Toronto campus. Unix Unanimous is an informal gathering of people interested in Unix and related topics. There are no fees or membership requirements, and the meeting is open to all. Participants typically include Unix professionals, students, and hobbyists. This message will be repeated on the Monday before the meeting. If there are any items for the agenda, email u-u-owner-nUbHFpetmNumKAeH2fHhIti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org before then. The meeting is always held on the second Wednesday of each month. Special Announcements: A mailing list has been set up for this announcement. If you wish to receive notification via email, go to the web page https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u/ in order to subscribe yourself. A map of the area can be found at http://unixunanimous.org where this message is repeated, and will always contain the correct location and time of the next meeting. _______________________________________________ u-u mailing list u-u-nUbHFpetmNumKAeH2fHhIti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From michaelgalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 9 16:40:33 2012 From: michaelgalea-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A at public.gmane.org (Michael Galea) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 12:40:33 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> Message-ID: <4F831101.9000207@ruggedcom.com> On 08/04/12 01:51 AM, Matt Seburn wrote: > On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 10:10 PM, charles chris wrote: >> They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam: We need hacks here! > I use Skype with an internal webcam on linux regularly... > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists I added a webcam recently. Unfortunately it was on the system that provided my mythtv backend. I was happy until the next boot when device enumeration ordered the webcam first and I lost a tuner. MythTv wasn't too communicative about the failure, either. Help offered by Mythtv walks you through configuring udev.. If linux needs hacks, they are usability hacks that would address problems like this for less sophisticated users. -- Michael Galea -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 9 17:16:15 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 13:16:15 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: <4F831101.9000207-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> <4F 831101.9000207@ruggedcom.com> Message-ID: <4F83195F.2080206@ve3syb.ca> On 12-04-09 12:40 PM, Michael Galea wrote: > I added a webcam recently. Unfortunately it was on the system that provided my > mythtv backend. I was happy until the next boot when device enumeration ordered > the webcam first and I lost a tuner. I ran in to that exact same problem when I added a webcam to my desktop that also runs MythTV. I solved the problem by blacklisting a module (don't remember if I blacklisted the tuner card module or the webcam one) and used a script to load the blacklisted module later in the boot. It gave me a reliable order for the tuner and webcam devices so I was able to configure MythTV accordingly. Definitely not something the average user should have to do. In an ideal world, adding the webcam shouldn't have changed the device naming which can cause problems for other programs. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 9 17:31:59 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 13:31:59 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 10:10 PM, charles chris wrote: > Hey!? Linux is for people who live on Facebook and YouTube.? They download > videos, songs, copy and make DVD, burn audio CD, perform basic picture and > video editing, create resume, etc. Conduct research on the Internet > > They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam:? We need hacks here! > > Linux is NOT for graphic artists/desktop publishers/printers, video editors > Linux is NOT for tax preparers, financial services people > Linux is NOT for engineers who use Autocad > Linux is NOT for doctors and lawyers > Linux is NOT for the near blind who need ZoomText! Well, Linux was created by and for people that wanted to hack around with UNIX but didn't want to buy a VAX 11/780 to do so. (I remember using Ultrix with MFCF extensions on watdragon once upon a time!) The Debian project expresses a pretty massive extension of this, in that it is the "stone soup" of 'here's eight thousand and one packages that contributors wanted as part of their UNIX environment." Fedora expresses a somewhat similar notion, with a not-inconsiderable degree of "and we'll entrust some central engineering infrastructure to Red Hat Software." Android is rather more "for people who live on Facebook and YouTube and Skype", allowing people to download videos and songs. The infrastructure doesn't nearly so much lend itself to more 'techie' aspects; there are vastly, vastly fewer people contributing to the "Android distribution", proportionately, to the point that it makes it pretty clearly a "class structure" of People That Produce Software versus People That Consume Software. Getting people from one group of Persons Of Linux Interest into some other such group seems like a pretty challenging problem. At one level, people often self-identify based on preferred distribution (Fedora, Debian, SuSE, Ubuntu, Slackware, Gentoo), which is something of a cultural preference. Kinds of skills lead to a different "slicing" of interests. Those with kernel coding skills represent a particularly "deep" level. Those with enough comfort with C that they might work on some infrastructure represent another level. Those that tend to 'script stuff' are a third level. Those that need something to click on with their mouse have a fundamentally more shallow kind of access. Those different "levels" get engaged in fundamentally different ways, and if you assume "The Community" as being representative of a particular slice, there's a considerable risk of missing what's important about other slices. You can't *HAVE* Linux without there being a set of kernel developers, and there are thousands of those around, which means their preferences matter. You can't *HAVE* distributions like Ubuntu without already having Debian and the communities of developers that surround infrastructure pieces such as FSF, Apache, GNOME, KDE, Postgres, Perl, Python, and such. Their desires matter, and there's a lotta thousands of them. In contrast, I'm not certain that the desires of Android users "matter" in any important sense, as those desires don't necessarily guide development in meaningful ways. Clicking on "like" on an application doesn't make new features come about. Those folk are using a pretty "embedded" version of Linux that they don't get to control in any more meaningful way than they could control iOS or Symbian or WinMo. >From "what does GTALUG need to care about?" perspective, I think we're way closer to those Communities Of Developers than we are to the users of embedded systems. Trying to satisfy the users of embedded systems seems like a bigger challenge than we are likely to be able to much cope with. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 9 18:30:28 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 14:30:28 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> Message-ID: <20120409183028.GT10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:10:07PM -0400, charles chris wrote: > Hey! Linux is for people who live on Facebook and YouTube. They download > videos, songs, copy and make DVD, burn audio CD, perform basic picture and > video editing, create resume, etc. Conduct research on the Internet > > They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam: We need hacks here! Who cares about skype. Please make it go away and die, evil bastards. > Linux is NOT for graphic artists/desktop publishers/printers, video editors Some of those do use it. > Linux is NOT for tax preparers, financial services people That might be lacking at the moment. > Linux is NOT for engineers who use Autocad That's OK, they use SolidWorks these days, although that too requires windows. :) > Linux is NOT for doctors and lawyers Actually that could be debated. The first major users of unix were apparently lawyers. > Linux is NOT for the near blind who need ZoomText! I don't think zoom helps blind people. brltty and such might, which linux does have. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 10 02:05:18 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 22:05:18 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: <20120409183028.GT10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> <20120409183028.GT10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Well I am surprised by all the responses my post has generated. Thanks for the insights! My concern is mostly with unsophisticated users. This is the great pool from which Linux can draw new users! These people just want to browse Internet for information or do things online like banking or make purchases online. I would say most people use the browser, send and read email, play, download, edit, burn/copy multimedia and perform some basic word processing. This represents almost 100% usage in the Windows world. These people want a stable reliable system. They don't want to bother with the bleeding edge updates! I would like to create a similar image of Linux for PowerPC Macs. Ideally the image will play YouTube videos! I am seeking help with this. By Thursday evening this week, I should have a powerpc Linux image working on a G5, G4 and G3. It must be light on resources and most internal hardware should be detected and installed out of the box. This is true of my X86 Linux Mint LXDE images. I realize the Linux community has many talented individuals who contribute code or test Linux distros voluntarily. I would like to do my part by deploying images of Linux onto computers. Perhaps the Linux community can organize regular deployment of Linux onto: 1. All Pentium III PCs with limit of 512 RAM. Those below 800 MHz will not stream video properly. 2. All powerpc Macs from G3 to G5 (1999 - 2005) 3. Minimum 16 GB flash drives so user can dual boot Windows/Linux by merely removing/inserting the flash drive before boot. Widows and Linux will see the NTFS data partition on the flash drive. No configuration of Windows is necessary here! After Windows has loaded simply insert flash drive to access NTFS data partition on it. On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:10:07PM -0400, charles chris wrote: > > Hey! Linux is for people who live on Facebook and YouTube. They > download > > videos, songs, copy and make DVD, burn audio CD, perform basic picture > and > > video editing, create resume, etc. Conduct research on the Internet > > > > They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam: We need hacks here! > > Who cares about skype. Please make it go away and die, evil bastards. > > > Linux is NOT for graphic artists/desktop publishers/printers, video > editors > > Some of those do use it. > > > Linux is NOT for tax preparers, financial services people > > That might be lacking at the moment. > > > Linux is NOT for engineers who use Autocad > > That's OK, they use SolidWorks these days, although that too requires > windows. :) > > > Linux is NOT for doctors and lawyers > > Actually that could be debated. The first major users of unix were > apparently lawyers. > > > Linux is NOT for the near blind who need ZoomText! > > I don't think zoom helps blind people. brltty and such might, which > linux does have. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 10 06:41:40 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 02:41:40 -0400 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> Message-ID: <4F83D624.405@ve3syb.ca> On 12-04-07 10:10 PM, charles chris wrote: > Linux is NOT for graphic artists/desktop publishers/printers, video editors That statement is debatable on several levels. For graphic artists there is GIMP, I've heard KDE has a capable program (I don't run KDE so I don't know its name), and also Inkscape. Some may argue their suitability to some graphic artists but in general, the programs are more than good enough to get a job done. For desktop publishing there is Scribus. When it comes to video editors, there are several but not one that I've really thought was a good solid package that would get me to stop rebooting to Windows in order to use Pinnacle Studio. Cinelerra comes close but last time I used it I found it to be lacking in support for different video file formats and it was buggy and prone to crash. This is about to change. A high-end video editing package is about to be released for free to the Linux community. The name of the program is called Lightworks. The public beta is currently Windows only while they work on some issues. Check the links below for more information. http://www.lightworksbeta.com/ http://www.editshare.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=112 -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From torfree-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 12 16:54:07 2012 From: torfree-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org (Bill Henderson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:54:07 -0400 Subject: [OT] For Sale Message-ID: <51AEA0E926A340D8957FAAFDCB5F6AE2@darkstar1> Returning to France System complete Great for a server or whatever. HP Tower: sda 260 gb sdb 80 gb CDR/W Intel dual core CPU 6400 @ 2.13Ghz RAM 2 GB USB External drives: (1) 1.0 TB (2) 0.5 TB CRT Gateway flat 21 inch (almost new) Cable Modem DOCSIS 3.0 - high speed (Almost New) For Teksavvy, Rogers, etc Router TP-Link WR841N v5: (Almost new) 4 Wired connections plus Wifi 300 MBps Sound box: Philips Booster or whatever. $ 250 for the lot tel: 647 974 2769 email: slackrat-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org -- Slackrat -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 13 18:04:17 2012 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:04:17 -0400 Subject: Odd (?) Connectivity Problem Message-ID: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC@acm.org> Two nights ago my ISP dis some DNS reconfiguration. It's probably not just a coincidence that I lost my ability to use my DSL connection at the same time...sort of. I have a DSL modem connected to an old router (Linksys BEFSR41 V3). The router says that its connection to the ISP is fine and reports the right DNS addresses but any attempt to do a DNS lookup from my client computers fails with some variety of "server not found" message. Likewise, I get timeouts if I attempt to go directly to a known numerical address. The kicker in this is that a direct PPPoE connection from a computer through the modem works just fine. ISP tech support for a connected router is officially non-existent. They told me that they'd seen the problem and that a factory reset to get rid of anything cached had worked for other people who had the problem yesterday. I did that, re-entered account information, and it reloaded things fine but it didn't change any of the symptoms. Any suggestions before I cancel the service and start looking for a replacement provider? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 13 18:21:38 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:21:38 -0700 Subject: Odd (?) Connectivity Problem In-Reply-To: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org> References: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC@acm.org> Message-ID: sounds like the issue is with the router/computer and not the ISP. Does your resolv.conf have the correct nameservers, and what happens with a dig/nslookup? On Apr 13, 2012 11:05 AM, "Phillip Mills" wrote: > Two nights ago my ISP dis some DNS reconfiguration. It's probably not > just a coincidence that I lost my ability to use my DSL connection at the > same time...sort of. > > I have a DSL modem connected to an old router (Linksys BEFSR41 V3). The > router says that its connection to the ISP is fine and reports the right > DNS addresses but any attempt to do a DNS lookup from my client computers > fails with some variety of "server not found" message. Likewise, I get > timeouts if I attempt to go directly to a known numerical address. > > The kicker in this is that a direct PPPoE connection from a computer > through the modem works just fine. > > ISP tech support for a connected router is officially non-existent. They > told me that they'd seen the problem and that a factory reset to get rid of > anything cached had worked for other people who had the problem yesterday. > I did that, re-entered account information, and it reloaded things fine > but it didn't change any of the symptoms. > > Any suggestions before I cancel the service and start looking for a > replacement provider? > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 13 18:25:18 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:25:18 -0700 Subject: New article in the Economist criticizing Linux usability In-Reply-To: <4F831101.9000207-4VtgCsEi+FIybS5Ee8rs3A@public.gmane.org> References: <4F7A2B80.22204.53F71BA3@sciguy.vex.net> <20120403151454.GR10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B150B.4060102@rogers.com> <20120403184132.GS10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F7B5A70.5020408@rogers.com> <000901cd1529$5dd00a10$19701e30$@com> <4F831101.9000207@ruggedcom.com> Message-ID: this is definitely a long-term PITA in linux, and was fixed for drives by using UIDS, and NIC's with "persistent-net-interfaces" being generated by udev. Of course, windows also has similar stupidity. Ever insert a USB HDD and not find the drive because the OS assigned out the same drive-letter as an existing network mapping? On Apr 9, 2012 9:41 AM, "Michael Galea" wrote: > On 08/04/12 01:51 AM, Matt Seburn wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 10:10 PM, charles chris >> wrote: >> >>> They may need Skype to work with an internal webcam: We need hacks here! >>> >> I use Skype with an internal webcam on linux regularly... >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists >> > I added a webcam recently. Unfortunately it was on the system that > provided my > mythtv backend. I was happy until the next boot when device enumeration > ordered > the webcam first and I lost a tuner. > MythTv wasn't too communicative about the failure, either. Help offered > by Mythtv > walks you through configuring udev.. > > If linux needs hacks, they are usability hacks that would address problems > like this > for less sophisticated users. > > -- > Michael Galea > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 13 18:37:58 2012 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:37:58 -0400 Subject: Odd (?) Connectivity Problem In-Reply-To: References: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC@acm.org> Message-ID: <3023750C-87A8-445A-A954-D23D24EB9DFC@acm.org> On 2012-04-13, at 2:21 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Does your resolv.conf have the correct nameservers, Yes. Exactly the same ones that worked 2 days ago (and the same as the router reports). > and what happens with a dig/nslookup? I see the lights flicker on the modem and eventually get a "no servers could be reached" message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 13 19:34:02 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:34:02 -0400 Subject: Odd (?) Connectivity Problem In-Reply-To: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org> References: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC@acm.org> Message-ID: <20120413193402.GU10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 02:04:17PM -0400, Phillip Mills wrote: > Two nights ago my ISP dis some DNS reconfiguration. It's probably not just a coincidence that I lost my ability to use my DSL connection at the same time...sort of. > > I have a DSL modem connected to an old router (Linksys BEFSR41 V3). The router says that its connection to the ISP is fine and reports the right DNS addresses but any attempt to do a DNS lookup from my client computers fails with some variety of "server not found" message. Likewise, I get timeouts if I attempt to go directly to a known numerical address. > > The kicker in this is that a direct PPPoE connection from a computer through the modem works just fine. > > ISP tech support for a connected router is officially non-existent. They told me that they'd seen the problem and that a factory reset to get rid of anything cached had worked for other people who had the problem yesterday. I did that, re-entered account information, and it reloaded things fine but it didn't change any of the symptoms. > > Any suggestions before I cancel the service and start looking for a replacement provider? Thrown away the linksys? That's what I did a few years ago with a BEFSR41. What a piece of unreliable shit that thing is. WRT54GL works fine, but the BEFSR41 was frequently dropping the connection for no reason. I do not think your ISP is at fault in any way. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 13 20:13:19 2012 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:13:19 -0400 Subject: Odd (?) Connectivity Problem In-Reply-To: <20120413193402.GU10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC@acm.org> <20120413193402.GU10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2012-04-13, at 3:34 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Thrown away the linksys? I suppose that's a possibility. > I do not think your ISP is at fault in any way. I'd be more convinced if they hadn't reconfigured their DNS servers at the same time as the problem started, or weren't telling a large number of customers to do router resets, or the router had any problems connecting...but, maybe. ...or the router is too old or otherwise incapable of dealing with whatever changes they made. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 13 21:40:45 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 17:40:45 -0400 Subject: Odd (?) Connectivity Problem In-Reply-To: References: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC@acm.org> <20120413193402.GU10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120413214045.GV10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 04:13:19PM -0400, Phillip Mills wrote: > I suppose that's a possibility. > > I'd be more convinced if they hadn't reconfigured their DNS servers at the same time as the problem started, or weren't telling a large number of customers to do router resets, or the router had any problems connecting...but, maybe. ...or the router is too old or otherwise incapable of dealing with whatever changes they made. It may be that something they did is making it trigger the problem, but those boxes are ancient, and had issues even when they were new. Given it works fine with you don't use the linksys, I would very much point the blame at the linksys. I do not have fond memories of the BEFSR41. I did some searching, adn as part of testing for dnssec, the BEFSR41 was found to not support tcp dns queries through it's dns proxy (so using the router as your dns to then forward the requests on to whatever dhcp told it to use from the isp), nor does it handle udp packets larger than 1472 bytes (which could be a problem for records with IPv6 info, or at least a lot of entries). So overall, it does look a bit broken. I am trying to remember if it has a setting to pass the upstream DNS setting to the dhcp clients locally rather than using a dns proxy on the router. Of course you could also just configure it to hand out 8.8.8.8 as DNS to your dhcp clients and be done with it. The test report I found shows the WRT54G as having even more DNS proxy problems. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 14 14:41:12 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 10:41:12 -0400 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) POG (Political Outreach Group). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to note that the next GTALug POG meeting will be : April 16th 2012, 7:00 PM at my place (near Yonge and Eglinton). This will be discussions about where open source and politics cross paths. Anyone interested in attending please let me know, and I will send the exact address (this is because my living room is ... not huge and I would like to know how many people to expect). Thanks. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 00:24:54 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:24:54 -0400 Subject: Public IP on loop back interface Message-ID: Evening pal, I am curious, have anybody ever seen a system using a public IP for loop back interface instead of 127.0.0.1? Would there be a good reason to do that? Regards, WIlliam -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 01:32:13 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:32:13 -0400 Subject: Public IP on loop back interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8CC81D.60102@rogers.com> William Muriithi wrote: > Evening pal, > > I am curious, have anybody ever seen a system using a public IP for > loop back interface instead of 127.0.0.1? > > Would there be a good reason to do that? > > Regards, > > WIlliam > I have never seen that and can't think of a reason for doing it. On the other hand I can think of reasons for not doing it. The loop back is always supposed to be 127.x.x.x on IPv4 and ::1 on IPv6. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 01:57:20 2012 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:57:20 -0400 Subject: Public IP on loop back interface In-Reply-To: <4F8CC81D.60102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F8CC81D.60102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F8CCE00.3000503@gmail.com> It's sometimes used in mac-based load balancing. You add the shared IP to the loopback. Then when a frame hits your server with the destination IP address, the packet happily goes up the stack. The reply packet goes out the normal route because it doesn't care about the source mac. ( Linux sometimes needs some ARP trickery or a custom kernel to prevent it from advertising the address though. ) ... but I can't think of any other reason. On 16/04/2012 9:32 PM, James Knott wrote: > William Muriithi wrote: >> Evening pal, >> >> I am curious, have anybody ever seen a system using a public IP for >> loop back interface instead of 127.0.0.1? >> >> Would there be a good reason to do that? >> >> Regards, >> >> WIlliam >> > > I have never seen that and can't think of a reason for doing it. On the > other hand I can think of reasons for not doing it. The loop back is > always supposed to be 127.x.x.x on IPv4 and ::1 on IPv6. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 02:24:13 2012 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:24:13 -0400 Subject: Public IP on loop back interface In-Reply-To: <4F8CCE00.3000503-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F8CC81D.60102@rogers.com> <4F8CCE00.3000503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8CD44D.4020606@rogers.com> Mike Kallies wrote: > You add the shared IP to the loopback. Then when a frame hits your > server with the destination IP address, the packet happily goes up the > stack. The reply packet goes out the normal route because it doesn't > care about the source mac. That would apply only for traffic within the local LAN, as MAC addresses don't make through routers. Also, unless the NIC is in promiscuous mode, that computer shouldn't even see a frame that doesn't have it's MAC as the destination, other than broadcasts. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 11:20:19 2012 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 07:20:19 -0400 Subject: Public IP on loop back interface In-Reply-To: <4F8CD44D.4020606-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F8CC81D.60102@rogers.com> <4F8CCE00.3000503@gmail.com> <4F8CD44D.4020606@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4F8D51F3.6010405@gmail.com> On 16/04/2012 10:24 PM, James Knott wrote: > Mike Kallies wrote: >> You add the shared IP to the loopback. Then when a frame hits your >> server with the destination IP address, the packet happily goes up the >> stack. The reply packet goes out the normal route because it doesn't >> care about the source mac. > > That would apply only for traffic within the local LAN, as MAC addresses > don't make through routers. Also, unless the NIC is in promiscuous > mode, that computer shouldn't even see a frame that doesn't have it's > MAC as the destination, other than broadcasts. That's the point though. The load balancer uses the MAC to select the node which will respond. It's a slick system. Imagine a couple dozen Apache servers behind a load balancer. The load balancer has all the MACs in a table, then selects the node which will respond by directing traffic to the target MAC. The source and target IP address are preserved and the reply packet doesn't go back through the load balancer. This asymmetric path is especially nice for something like http, where most often the request is a tiny fraction of the size of the reply. The logs are also clean with no reverse proxy or NAT appearing in them. I've set this system up, but I'm not aware of FOSS implementations. Point is, it's one situation where you'd put the IP on the loopback :-) -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 12:40:01 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 08:40:01 -0400 Subject: Odd (?) Connectivity Problem In-Reply-To: <20120413214045.GV10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC@acm.org> <20120413193402.GU10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120413214045.GV10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: I assume you did power reset the modem and the router Make sure output of modem is going to WAN input of router and output from router is going to PC You may try using another output port on the router or try changing the Ethernet cables You may uninstall then reinstall your NIC You may try connecting another PC to the router. If that PC connects then the problem lies with your PC On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:40 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 04:13:19PM -0400, Phillip Mills wrote: > > I suppose that's a possibility. > > > > I'd be more convinced if they hadn't reconfigured their DNS servers at > the same time as the problem started, or weren't telling a large number of > customers to do router resets, or the router had any problems > connecting...but, maybe. ...or the router is too old or otherwise > incapable of dealing with whatever changes they made. > > It may be that something they did is making it trigger the problem, > but those boxes are ancient, and had issues even when they were new. > Given it works fine with you don't use the linksys, I would very much > point the blame at the linksys. > > I do not have fond memories of the BEFSR41. > > I did some searching, adn as part of testing for dnssec, the BEFSR41 was > found to not support tcp dns queries through it's dns proxy (so using > the router as your dns to then forward the requests on to whatever dhcp > told it to use from the isp), nor does it handle udp packets larger > than 1472 bytes (which could be a problem for records with IPv6 info, > or at least a lot of entries). So overall, it does look a bit broken. > > I am trying to remember if it has a setting to pass the upstream DNS > setting to the dhcp clients locally rather than using a dns proxy on > the router. Of course you could also just configure it to hand out > 8.8.8.8 as DNS to your dhcp clients and be done with it. > > The test report I found shows the WRT54G as having even more DNS proxy > problems. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 15:30:06 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:30:06 -0400 Subject: Public IP on loop back interface In-Reply-To: <4F8CCE00.3000503-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F8CC81D.60102@rogers.com> <4F8CCE00.3000503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120417153006.GW10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > It's sometimes used in mac-based load balancing. > > You add the shared IP to the loopback. Then when a frame hits your > server with the destination IP address, the packet happily goes up the > stack. The reply packet goes out the normal route because it doesn't > care about the source mac. > > ( Linux sometimes needs some ARP trickery or a custom kernel to prevent > it from advertising the address though. ) > > ... but I can't think of any other reason. And smart people use the dummy0 interface for that. There isn't any reason to abuse lo for such things. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 15:59:03 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:59:03 -0400 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) POG (Political Outreach Group). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry I missed it! I was busy compiling afrogta.ca and uploading to the Net Would you like to host Linux deployment on PCs and Macs. Especially P3s!? If so then let's talk! 647 453 3327 On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Just to note that the next GTALug POG meeting will be : > > April 16th 2012, 7:00 PM at my place (near Yonge and Eglinton). > This will be discussions about where open source and politics cross > paths. > > Anyone interested in attending please let me know, and I will send the > exact address (this is because my living room is ... not huge and I > would like to know how many people to expect). > > > Thanks. > > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 16:43:59 2012 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:43:59 -0400 Subject: progress with my SIMPL framework + libusb-1.0 + Phidgets open source effort Message-ID: <201204171244.02111.icanprogram@295.ca> I have made great progress in getting a SIMPL (www.icanprogram.com/simpl) framework + libusb-1.0 implementation running on my Phidgets (www.phidgets.com) SBC. All my progress and freely available code is at: http://www.icanprogram.com/opndrs/phidgets This Phidgets board is a pretty slick (~$300) embedded Linux device. It is only slightly larger than a deck of cards yet it is a full blown Debian Linux computer complete with an integrated digital (8in, 8out) and (8 channel) analog I/O board, 6 USB ports and an ethernet port. The challenge all along with this project has been that, while the vendor gives away the libusb-0.1 (multi threaded spagetti) source code for this device, they keep documentation of USB protocols and hardware close to their vest. They clearly have never read Joel Spolsky's seminal piece on "smart companies commoditize their product's complements" (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/StrategyLetterV.html) I have been able to "tease" out enough information about said protocols and hardware from that spagetti codebase to get digital inputs, digital outputs and analog temperature sensor (type 1124) working. All this is now cloud enabled by virtue of the SIMPL toolkit and my Linode. All the basics are there but it will take a lot more manpower to stabilize, polish, document and extend this code framework further to encompass the sizable array of other Phidget sensors. Any and all volunteers are welcome. Just contact me offlist. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 17 19:20:01 2012 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 15:20:01 -0400 Subject: Public IP on loop back interface In-Reply-To: <20120417153006.GW10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4F8CC81D.60102@rogers.com> <4F8CCE00.3000503@gmail.com> <20120417153006.GW10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F8DC261.5020703@gmail.com> On 17/04/2012 11:30 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: ... > And smart people use the dummy0 interface for that. > > There isn't any reason to abuse lo for such things. > I'll go with whatever the vendor supports and recommends. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 18 11:22:18 2012 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:22:18 -0400 Subject: Public IP on loop back interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120418112218.GG32666@adb.ca> William Muriithi wrote: > I am curious, have anybody ever seen a system using a public IP for > loop back interface instead of 127.0.0.1? Never instead of, but sometimes in addition to. For some high-end router protocols, each node having a canonical address that isn't subject to the whim of which particular interfaces and routes are up can be useful. Cisco docs referred to it as a loopback address (confusingly, but it's been several years) or router ID, and the Linux boxes I was doing equivalent stuff on would have a public /32 address bound to lo:0 in addition to the usual lo 127.0.0.1. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 19 14:13:23 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 10:13:23 -0400 Subject: Public IP on loop back interface In-Reply-To: <20120418112218.GG32666-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20120418112218.GG32666@adb.ca> Message-ID: Thanks guys Appreciate the feedback Regards, William On 18 April 2012 07:22, Anthony de Boer wrote: > William Muriithi wrote: >> I am curious, have anybody ever seen a system using a public IP for >> loop back interface instead of 127.0.0.1? > > Never instead of, but sometimes in addition to. > > For some high-end router protocols, each node having a canonical address > that isn't subject to the whim of which particular interfaces and routes > are up can be useful. ?Cisco docs referred to it as a loopback address > (confusingly, but it's been several years) or router ID, and the Linux > boxes I was doing equivalent stuff on would have a public /32 address > bound to lo:0 in addition to the usual lo 127.0.0.1. > > -- > Anthony de Boer > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 19 15:43:57 2012 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 11:43:57 -0400 Subject: Odd (?) Connectivity Problem In-Reply-To: <20120413214045.GV10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <10AA6604-0E2A-40D2-8A99-C7568CAFC6BC@acm.org> <20120413193402.GU10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120413214045.GV10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2012-04-13, at 5:40 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > It may be that something they did is making it trigger the problem, > but those boxes are ancient, and had issues even when they were new. To finish the story.... Although I'm still quite sure that the network connection failure was due to changes that the ISP made, it does seem to have been a compatibility problem of some sort rather than an actual error. I bought a new router yesterday -- mid-price, nothing special -- on the assumption that my old one's main problem was 'old'. The new one came up and connected fine...plus we now have a second wireless network in the house, which could come in handy. Thanks for the advice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 20 13:19:29 2012 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 09:19:29 -0400 Subject: Time? Maybe TZ Message-ID: <9e30b787c3b122ff4df13b9cae1c6f6d.squirrel@nray.ca> Hello all, I'm afraid my ignorance has caught up to me again. :( I have a system that appears to know the correct time. When I type 'date' at the command prompt I get the correct date time. However, every file modification timestamp is out by -1 hour. I'm using ntp on a cronjob to keep my clock synced. How do I fix this discrepancy? Could it be a TZ thing? Thanks, Stephen ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 20 13:56:40 2012 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 09:56:40 -0400 Subject: Time? Maybe TZ In-Reply-To: <9e30b787c3b122ff4df13b9cae1c6f6d.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <9e30b787c3b122ff4df13b9cae1c6f6d.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <4ccc5663a0b25db88aa9481ca14fc11d.squirrel@nray.ca> I found it. missmatch of hwclock and system time Fixed it with: /sbin/hwclock --systohc > Hello all, > > I'm afraid my ignorance has caught up to me again. :( > > I have a system that appears to know the correct time. When I type 'date' > at the command prompt I get the correct date time. However, every file > modification timestamp is out by -1 hour. I'm using ntp on a cronjob to > keep my clock synced. > > How do I fix this discrepancy? Could it be a TZ thing? > > Thanks, > Stephen > > > ____________________ > Stephen W. Clarke > Marketing and Communications Officer > Nray Services Inc. > 56A Head Street > Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 > CANADA > > (905) 627-1302 x14 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 20 20:47:01 2012 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 20:47:01 +0000 Subject: Iomega Storage Centre Message-ID: Dell has this Iomega data storage unit on sale. Anyone familiar with it? http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Hard_Drives_Storage/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=A4768772 I am in need of setting up my home file and print server again as my old Debian server had a hard drive crash (old stuff). I have a P4 set aside for the server, but have wondered whether I should get something with a smaller footprint that is designed for this purpose. The Iomega unit is more than I need, although the storage capacity would come in handy when I start doing the video editing that I intend to do shortly. The Iomega "cloud" (file sharing) etc. is also appealing. It also has a print server. The Linux distros that it claims it's compatible with are pretty old. For anyone who is familiar with this type of product, I have a few questions: 1) Should the newer distros also not work with this unit? 2) It says it has a print server (USB ports). Would it be a separate print server than the OS? If so, how would we know if the printer is compatible? I suppose it's more likely to be the OS's print server. 3) To use file sharing from remote locations (the cloud), I assume it would require some server on the internet. Don't some ISPs (Bell and Rogers for example) block servers on consumer internet service? Any thoughts on this? I'm interested, but not so sure it's for me. Thanks, John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Apr 20 22:32:09 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 18:32:09 -0400 Subject: Iomega Storage Centre In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120420223209.GX10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 08:47:01PM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > Dell has this Iomega data storage unit on sale. Anyone familiar with it? > > http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Hard_Drives_Storage/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=A4768772 > > I am in need of setting up my home file and print server again as my old Debian server had a hard drive crash (old stuff). I have a P4 set aside for the server, but have wondered whether I should get something with a smaller footprint that is designed for this purpose. The Iomega unit is more than I need, although the storage capacity would come in handy when I start doing the video editing that I intend to do shortly. The Iomega "cloud" (file sharing) etc. is also appealing. It also has a print server. > > The Linux distros that it claims it's compatible with are pretty old. > > For anyone who is familiar with this type of product, I have a few questions: > 1) Should the newer distros also not work with this unit? > 2) It says it has a print server (USB ports). Would it be a separate print server than the OS? If so, how would we know if the printer is compatible? I suppose it's more likely to be the OS's print server. > 3) To use file sharing from remote locations (the cloud), I assume it would require some server on the internet. Don't some ISPs (Bell and Rogers for example) block servers on consumer internet service? > > Any thoughts on this? I'm interested, but not so sure it's for me. Could put debian on it: http://iomega.nas-central.org/wiki/Ix2-200_Debian_Installation It has a marvell kirkwood arm processor and runs a debian lenny based system out of the box. iomega has a 559MB download of the open source code in use on it. I suspect it has some not open source stuff on it too that you don't get though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 21 13:49:03 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:49:03 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE Message-ID: http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7202851 Check it out -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 17:08:58 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:08:58 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 09:49:03AM -0400, charles chris wrote: > http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7202851 > > Check it out Bittorrent. The most inefficient way to distribute software. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 17:20:19 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:20:19 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: <20120423170858.GY10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Yes indeed. However, it can be tricky! My torrent stops at 99.8 %. However, it downloads the 2 essential files needed, lm9lxde.tbi and iflnet.iso. Check out my linux mint 9 lxde image and give me some feedback Thanks! On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 09:49:03AM -0400, charles chris wrote: > > http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7202851 > > > > Check it out > > Bittorrent. The most inefficient way to distribute software. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 17:38:32 2012 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:38:32 -0400 Subject: SSDs Message-ID: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> From time to time I am curious about using an SSD for the OS on my desktop. Is anyone keeping /, usr, /tmp, /var (and other directories as appropriate) on an SSD on their desktop? Is there an improvement in performance? The slowest and most annoying thing I do on my desktop is moving files around - pushing video onto the network, copying large collections of files, etc. Whenever I have big IO going on my desktop becomes very unresponsive. Would moving that activity to a non-root disk help? Would an SSD help for general system performance? Any experiences would be welcome. Thanks! -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 17:51:58 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:51:58 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: <20120423173832.GA1005-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: My experience with Linux is very limited. I do know that light versions run fast on slow old hardware. Checkout my image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE. http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7202851 I know that Windows responds well to an increase in virtual memory. In Linux Mint this must be done at installation. Also, I know that automatic updates often spoil the OS and this I disable on my images of Windows and Linux. On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 1:38 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman < william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote: > From time to time I am curious about using an SSD for the OS on my > desktop. Is anyone keeping /, usr, /tmp, /var (and other directories as > appropriate) on an SSD on their desktop? Is there an improvement in > performance? > > The slowest and most annoying thing I do on my desktop is moving files > around - pushing video onto the network, copying large collections of > files, etc. Whenever I have big IO going on my desktop becomes very > unresponsive. Would moving that activity to a non-root disk help? > Would an SSD help for general system performance? > > Any experiences would be welcome. Thanks! > -- > > yours, > > William > > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 17:56:09 2012 From: avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Volkov) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:56:09 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: <20120423173832.GA1005-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <4F9597B9.40008@gmail.com> Short answer is yes, SSD give a big improvement insofar as I'd say on laptops they are a must, as an added benefit, battery life somewhat improves and that grinding sound disappears, now only CPU fan annoys me. Mine has read write speed of 500-550 MiB/s. compared to realistically 200MiB for hard drives. Also SSDs don't have seek time issue so small files are copied significantly faster. I used not to have swap partition, but since the easiest way of enabling hibernation is to dump everything into swap, now I have one, I also moved /tmp to RAM, besides that and some tweaking of block allocation in lvm/ext4 I use it as a normal disk, though mine drive is slightly old now, you might not even need to do that. Disk IO is the slowest part of any computer these days and apart from the fact that RAM is dirt cheap and everyone should max out their systems with it, switching to SSDs for root/home should be the next upgrade. Besides that you might want to tweak IO scheduler, also how many CPUs your system has? As a second thought, if you get SSD that is big enough, mount home partition under it as well, and mount all the directories that contain large files into /home. Alex. On 23/04/12 01:38 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > From time to time I am curious about using an SSD for the OS on my > desktop. Is anyone keeping /, usr, /tmp, /var (and other directories as > appropriate) on an SSD on their desktop? Is there an improvement in > performance? > > The slowest and most annoying thing I do on my desktop is moving files > around - pushing video onto the network, copying large collections of > files, etc. Whenever I have big IO going on my desktop becomes very > unresponsive. Would moving that activity to a non-root disk help? > Would an SSD help for general system performance? > > Any experiences would be welcome. Thanks! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 17:57:38 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:57:38 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: <20120423173832.GA1005-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20120423175738.GZ10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 01:38:32PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > From time to time I am curious about using an SSD for the OS on my > desktop. Is anyone keeping /, usr, /tmp, /var (and other directories as > appropriate) on an SSD on their desktop? Is there an improvement in > performance? > > The slowest and most annoying thing I do on my desktop is moving files > around - pushing video onto the network, copying large collections of > files, etc. Whenever I have big IO going on my desktop becomes very > unresponsive. Would moving that activity to a non-root disk help? > Would an SSD help for general system performance? > > Any experiences would be welcome. Thanks! I recently added SSDs to my mythtv box to hold the root FS and the mysql database. It certainly helped performance a lot. I still keep the recordings on a 4 disk raid5. Databases like mysql do a lot of random access and not having to wait for rotational delays and head seek on a harddisk helps a lot for that. I put vertex3 120GB in mine. I was exprimenting with having the journal for the filesystem on the raid5 on the SSD but I was having some stability issues so I turned that off. Doesn't seem like that changed the stability, so I may turn it on again later when I get a chance. I think I need to replace the mainboard, given it seems the chipset on it has issues when 4GB or more ram is installed. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 18:00:07 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:00:07 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 01:20:19PM -0400, charles chris wrote: > Yes indeed. However, it can be tricky! > My torrent stops at 99.8 %. > However, it downloads the 2 essential files needed, lm9lxde.tbi and > iflnet.iso. > > Check out my linux mint 9 lxde image and give me some feedback What is wrong with Linux mint 12 lxde from the official website? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 18:16:11 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:16:11 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: <20120423180007.GA10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Never tried version 12. Linux Mint 9 is NOT called Isadora for nothing! I adore her and it is officially supported until April 2013 On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 01:20:19PM -0400, charles chris wrote: > > Yes indeed. However, it can be tricky! > > My torrent stops at 99.8 %. > > However, it downloads the 2 essential files needed, lm9lxde.tbi and > > iflnet.iso. > > > > Check out my linux mint 9 lxde image and give me some feedback > > What is wrong with Linux mint 12 lxde from the official website? > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 18:22:22 2012 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:22:22 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: <20120423173832.GA1005-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <4F959DDE.6020400@gmail.com> i have used ssd for last 2 years. I first used a intel high-end SLC, no issues. I then used a MLC (because cheaper). No issues with data loss, but i sometimes get unexplained pauses that make me think its gone off and doing bit leveling (algo in device). The SLC i think i rated for 100k w cycles?, MLC 1000-10,000 IRC?, so i am wondering if going to a MLC was mistake, having said that, 99% of them now seem to be MLC's. I have been meaning to find out if there is some way linux can tell me what the SSD is doing behind the scenes. I see Windows util's and such, but not heard of stuff for Linux, especially in real time. For Windows (system i put together recently), since Ram is so cheap now, i.e. 32 GB for 300$, i installed a Ram disk, and norton to back it up every hour, as if Windows crashes, you lose all in Ram disk of course. Of course a Ram disk is a whole step of fast over SSD, so its got me thinking for my next Linux box, do i get 64-128gb ram, and have a Ram disk of say 32-64gb for that as apposed to SSD? I think a Ram disk mixed with conventional may be a better solution a lot of the time, because you tend to want wicked fast for some stuff (and SSD is slow a hell compared to ram disk), and for other stuff, old spinning platter if fine. Other times SSD may be preferable. Unless prices have changed, except of Mobo capacity issues, Ram and SSD flash ram seemed about same price(SLC), again making ram disk a viable alternative for some systems. My mean time between crashes in Linux is about 1 per year, for Win 7 its about same, and Win pre-7 well .. it was daily :( If you don't have a stable system, Ram disk is not a possibility. The Ram disk on my Win7 system has actually made it usable, making up for massive short-comings of it being Windows. -tl On 04/23/2012 01:38 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > From time to time I am curious about using an SSD for the OS on my > desktop. Is anyone keeping /, usr, /tmp, /var (and other directories as > appropriate) on an SSD on their desktop? Is there an improvement in > performance? > > The slowest and most annoying thing I do on my desktop is moving files > around - pushing video onto the network, copying large collections of > files, etc. Whenever I have big IO going on my desktop becomes very > unresponsive. Would moving that activity to a non-root disk help? > Would an SSD help for general system performance? > > Any experiences would be welcome. Thanks! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 18:27:08 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:27:08 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F959EFC.5060906@ve3syb.ca> On 12-04-23 02:16 PM, charles chris wrote: > Linux Mint 9 is NOT called Isadora for nothing! Are you referring to Isadora Duncan, the inventor of modern dance? -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 18:44:53 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:44:53 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: <4F959DDE.6020400-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> <4F959DDE.6020400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F95A325.6000602@ve3syb.ca> On 04/23/2012 01:38 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > Would an SSD help for general system performance? One would think it would. You might need to be careful of how it is used. I don't know how they hold up these days in applications where the SSD sees a lot of write cycles. There is a short video on the main page of Linux Journal that has some comments about selecting an SSD. You might want to have a look at it. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 18:47:39 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:47:39 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: <4F959EFC.5060906-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F959EFC.5060906@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: now you are somewhat off topic Kevin. However, I looked her up and what a great spirit she was. Her life was full of controversy and tragedy! On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 12-04-23 02:16 PM, charles chris wrote: > >> Linux Mint 9 is NOT called Isadora for nothing! >> > > Are you referring to Isadora Duncan, the inventor of modern dance? > > -- > Cheers! > > Kevin. > > http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that > distract > Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're > | powerful!" > #include | --Chris Hardwick > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 19:18:53 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:18:53 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: <4F95A325.6000602-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> <4F959DDE.6020400@gmail.com> <4F95A325.6000602@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > One would think it would. You might need to be careful of how it is used. I > don't know how they hold up these days in applications where the SSD sees a > lot of write cycles. http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/tech/SSDsAndBottlenecks It likely depends on what other resources the machine has and what you're doing on that volume. In a laptop, I think it would definitely be a win but in other cases, it may be marginal and limited to startup where things are cached initially. HTH. -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben Walton Take the risk of thinking for yourself. ?Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 21:44:58 2012 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:44:58 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: <20120423180007.GA10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> On 12-04-23 02:00 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 01:20:19PM -0400, charles chris wrote: >> Yes indeed. However, it can be tricky! >> My torrent stops at 99.8 %. >> However, it downloads the 2 essential files needed, lm9lxde.tbi and >> iflnet.iso. >> >> Check out my linux mint 9 lxde image and give me some feedback > What is wrong with Linux mint 12 lxde from the official website? > Other than the Realtek RTL8168 bug which gives slow and unreliable internet connections of which a Linux driver update from Realtek http://www.realtek.com/Downloads/downloadsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=13&PFid=5&Level=5&Conn=4&DownTypeID=3&GetDown=fa corrects .... not much. I agree with Lennart if you are going to seed, a later version would be preferred. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 21:57:14 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:57:14 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: <4F95CD5A.30702-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: I am seeding using Windows NOT Linux. and Linux Mint 9 LXDE is a LTR. If I get great results from Isadora, why try another version? I tried Linux Mint 10 LXDE and gnome desktop but found them really sluggish on older PCs. I only update what I need. I refuse to upgrade! Upgrade would only ruin a perfect thing! On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 5:44 PM, John Myshrall wrote: > On 12-04-23 02:00 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 01:20:19PM -0400, charles chris wrote: >> >>> Yes indeed. However, it can be tricky! >>> My torrent stops at 99.8 %. >>> However, it downloads the 2 essential files needed, lm9lxde.tbi and >>> iflnet.iso. >>> >>> Check out my linux mint 9 lxde image and give me some feedback >>> >> What is wrong with Linux mint 12 lxde from the official website? >> >> > Other than the Realtek RTL8168 bug which gives slow and unreliable > internet connections of which a Linux driver update from Realtek > http://www.realtek.com/**Downloads/downloadsView.aspx?** > Langid=1&PNid=13&PFid=5&Level=**5&Conn=4&DownTypeID=3&GetDown=**fa > corrects .... not much. > > I agree with Lennart if you are going to seed, a later version would be > preferred. > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 22:08:19 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:08:19 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> <4F959DDE.6020400@gmail.com> <4F95A325.6000602@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: I read somewhere there are linux commands to stop not needed daemons: http://www.linuxtutorialblog.com/post/tutorial-disabling-unused-daemons-to-speed-up-your-boot-sequence http://livelinux.altervista.org/Guida_LMDE/EN_tips.html Check item 11 in above link On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Ben Walton wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > > > > One would think it would. You might need to be careful of how it is > used. I > > don't know how they hold up these days in applications where the SSD > sees a > > lot of write cycles. > > http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/tech/SSDsAndBottlenecks > > It likely depends on what other resources the machine has and what > you're doing on that volume. In a laptop, I think it would definitely > be a win but in other cases, it may be marginal and limited to startup > where things are cached initially. > > HTH. > -Ben > -- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ben Walton > > Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, > truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. > > -Christopher Hitchens > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 22:27:02 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:27:02 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 5:57 PM, charles chris wrote: > I am seeding using Windows NOT Linux. > > and Linux Mint 9 LXDE is a LTR. > > If I get great results from Isadora, why try another version? > > I tried Linux Mint 10 LXDE and gnome desktop but found them really sluggish > on older PCs. > > I only update what I need. > > I refuse to upgrade! > > Upgrade would only ruin a perfect thing! In practice, that seems to be a disastrous result. The set of available hardware has the habit of changing over time. I was just reading a novel that referenced a "FrancoDEC LapVAX", which represents a quite different fork in the road from where we went; a world where DEC survived, but France wound up ruling the world. At the time the book was written, "All the world's a VAX" was one of the prevailing opinions amongst Unix folk. In our world, today, the next computer you get is quite likely to have a NIC or a video card that Mint 9 won't know about. So it is really vitally important to be able to see upgrades of important software, as you might get stuck with a system that will only work on hardware that you can't buy anymore. I get the impression that a lot of the people that want to run alternative OSes like Plan 9 wind up having to run them in a virtualization context because they have a preference for hardware that you can't get anymore. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 22:35:38 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:35:38 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: Linux Mint 9 is supported until April 2013. It can run on anything. Like it's name. It sure can DANCE! On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 5:57 PM, charles chris wrote: > > I am seeding using Windows NOT Linux. > > > > and Linux Mint 9 LXDE is a LTR. > > > > If I get great results from Isadora, why try another version? > > > > I tried Linux Mint 10 LXDE and gnome desktop but found them really > sluggish > > on older PCs. > > > > I only update what I need. > > > > I refuse to upgrade! > > > > Upgrade would only ruin a perfect thing! > > In practice, that seems to be a disastrous result. > > The set of available hardware has the habit of changing over time. I > was just reading a novel that referenced a "FrancoDEC LapVAX", which > represents a quite different fork in the road from where we went; a > world where DEC survived, but France wound up ruling the world. At > the time the book was written, "All the world's a VAX" was one of the > prevailing opinions amongst Unix folk. > > In our world, today, the next computer you get is quite likely to have > a NIC or a video card that Mint 9 won't know about. So it is really > vitally important to be able to see upgrades of important software, as > you might get stuck with a system that will only work on hardware that > you can't buy anymore. > > I get the impression that a lot of the people that want to run > alternative OSes like Plan 9 wind up having to run them in a > virtualization context because they have a preference for hardware > that you can't get anymore. > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 22:40:37 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:40:37 -0700 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: what was the book On Apr 23, 2012 3:27 PM, "Christopher Browne" wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 5:57 PM, charles chris wrote: > > I am seeding using Windows NOT Linux. > > > > and Linux Mint 9 LXDE is a LTR. > > > > If I get great results from Isadora, why try another version? > > > > I tried Linux Mint 10 LXDE and gnome desktop but found them really > sluggish > > on older PCs. > > > > I only update what I need. > > > > I refuse to upgrade! > > > > Upgrade would only ruin a perfect thing! > > In practice, that seems to be a disastrous result. > > The set of available hardware has the habit of changing over time. I > was just reading a novel that referenced a "FrancoDEC LapVAX", which > represents a quite different fork in the road from where we went; a > world where DEC survived, but France wound up ruling the world. At > the time the book was written, "All the world's a VAX" was one of the > prevailing opinions amongst Unix folk. > > In our world, today, the next computer you get is quite likely to have > a NIC or a video card that Mint 9 won't know about. So it is really > vitally important to be able to see upgrades of important software, as > you might get stuck with a system that will only work on hardware that > you can't buy anymore. > > I get the impression that a lot of the people that want to run > alternative OSes like Plan 9 wind up having to run them in a > virtualization context because they have a preference for hardware > that you can't get anymore. > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 23:08:01 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:08:01 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: <20120423230801.GB10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 05:57:14PM -0400, charles chris wrote: > I am seeding using Windows NOT Linux. > > and Linux Mint 9 LXDE is a LTR. Oh OK. > If I get great results from Isadora, why try another version? Fair enough. > I tried Linux Mint 10 LXDE and gnome desktop but found them really sluggish > on older PCs. > > I only update what I need. > > I refuse to upgrade! > > Upgrade would only ruin a perfect thing! That works. Of course downloading off one of the http or ftp mirrors would almost certainly be faster and more efficient than using bittorrent. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 23:09:36 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:09:36 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: <20120423230936.GC10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 06:35:38PM -0400, charles chris wrote: > Linux Mint 9 is supported until April 2013. > > It can run on anything. Anything that was supported at the time it was released. It is supported for existing installations on supported hardware, until April 2013. Which is only a year away. > Like it's name. It sure can DANCE! -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 23 23:59:16 2012 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:59:16 -0400 Subject: Raspberry PI Message-ID: The folks at bit-tech have a review of the Raspberry PI: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/pcs/2012/04/16/raspberry-pi-review/ In summary, they like it, giving the machine a score of 90%. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 24 01:18:29 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:18:29 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: <20120423230936.GC10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> <20120423230936.GC10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: I had considered free file hosting because my web host can't handle large files. Browsers have a hard time downloading large files and cannot resume from where the download was broken. I considered 4shared.com but changed my mind because they don't allow parallel downloads. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_hosting_services On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 06:35:38PM -0400, charles chris wrote: > > Linux Mint 9 is supported until April 2013. > > > > It can run on anything. > > Anything that was supported at the time it was released. > > It is supported for existing installations on supported hardware, until > April 2013. Which is only a year away. > > > Like it's name. It sure can DANCE! > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 24 02:15:08 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 22:15:08 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > what was the book The Long Run, by Daniel Keyes Moran http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/ -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 24 14:56:22 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:56:22 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> <20120423230936.GC10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120424145622.GD10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 09:18:29PM -0400, charles chris wrote: > I had considered free file hosting because my web host can't handle large > files. > > Browsers have a hard time downloading large files and cannot resume from > where the download was broken. > > I considered 4shared.com but changed my mind because they don't allow > parallel downloads. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_hosting_services Well bittorrent is handy for people without a distribution network. Those that have actual servers are much better off ignoring bittorrent since it is a resource hog and a waste of time. So redhat and debian and ubuntu should avoid bittorrent. Individuals without such a distribution system can do qutie well with bittorrent. http://kernel.org/doc/ols/2008/ols2008v1-pages-173-182.pdf was a very interesting paper and presentation on what is wrong with bittorrent for large scale distribution. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 24 19:19:46 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 15:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: <4F959DDE.6020400-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> <4F959DDE.6020400@gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Ted | I first used a intel high-end SLC, no issues. | I then used a MLC (because cheaper). No issues with data loss, but i sometimes | get unexplained pauses that make me think its gone off and | doing bit leveling (algo in device). The SLC i think i rated for 100k w | cycles?, MLC 1000-10,000 IRC?, so i am wondering if going to a MLC was | mistake, having said that, 99% of them now seem to be MLC's. In (my) theory, this is an important issue: SLC vs MLC. SLC's have so much longer lifetime but they are mostly driven out of the (consumer?) market. SLC should (in theory) be twice the price per byte as MLC: as I understand it, mainstream MLC cells store two bits (there is work on increasing this) whereas SLC cells store one bit (by definition). If you use SSD purely as cache, common sense says that it gets hammered by writes. So SLC makes sense for this application. That, I presume, is why Seagate uses SLC for its hybrid drives. | ... Ram and SSD flash ram seemed about same price(SLC), | again making ram disk a viable alternative for some systems. If SLC is as expensive as RAM, why not use RAM? A cache that is stable (in the face of power failures and other system crashes) is much more effective than one that is not, all other things being equal. The classic example is databases: when a transaction is committed, it must reach stable storage. The log could be held in SSD or disk, but not conventional RAM (unconventional works: battery backed-up hardware RAM-Disk). The same idea applies to many less formalised settings. Obviously file-system operations are an example. So: how should we Linux users use mass-market SSDs? - Consider desktops or other PC systems that are not space or weight constrained. Mass-market (MLC) SSDs are 2.5" (usually) and are cheap, large, and fast enough to hold filesystems. I use one for / (which I can reconstruct if it goes south) but not /home (it's on a conventional hard drive). I also like lots of disk space, something that only hard drives can provide economically. - I think that the Seagate hybrid drives are quite attractive for notebooks. They look just like an ordinary 2.5" hard drive but have a transparent but effective SLC SSD cache. - for many notebooks, SSDs make sense: 2.5" size makes them direct replacements for notebook hard drives. Some notebooks even have 1.8" slots which really are best for SSDs. Often notebooks don't need the bulk capacity of hard drives. (120G SSD costs roughly the same as a 1T hard drive.) - I hesitate to use MLC SSDs as ordinary caches. I do feed my systems lots of RAM for that. - some notebooks support mSATA drives in addition to their 2.5" drive slot. mSATA SSDs are more expensive and slower than SATA ones but I think that they could be worthwhile. I'm seriously thinking of adding one to my new ThinkPad T520. I installed a 120G SSD on my desktop a few months back. I use it for /, not home. My impressions: - I only notice a few speed improvements: + booting is faster, but I rarely boot, so it isn't a big win + software updates are a lot faster ("yum update" in Fedora). I think that the reason is that these operations are random-access intensive. Still, I don't spend a lot of time waiting upon Linux software update. - I'm pretty sure I'd notice a lot of slowdowns if I switched back. That's just human nature. The way I use the SSD, 30G would probably be enough. As I get braver, I might put more on it. My current desktop use doesn't really hammer the disk. SSDs could be quite useful for databases. It depends on the actual application of the databases. Lennart gave a good example, MythTV's database (which does not include the actual recording files): I find my Myth TV database is a bit slow on regular hard drives. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 24 20:34:42 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: new Amiga runs Linux, dressed up as Amiga OS Message-ID: http://www.reghardware.com/2012/03/22/commodore_usa_outs_amiga_mini_desktop_pc/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 24 21:49:10 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 17:49:10 -0400 Subject: new Amiga runs Linux, dressed up as Amiga OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120424214910.GE10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 04:34:42PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > http://www.reghardware.com/2012/03/22/commodore_usa_outs_amiga_mini_desktop_pc/ Yeah that one isn't that interesting. This one is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmigaOne_X1000 -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 24 21:56:28 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 17:56:28 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> <4F959DDE.6020400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120424215628.GF10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 03:19:46PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > In (my) theory, this is an important issue: SLC vs MLC. SLC's have so > much longer lifetime but they are mostly driven out of the (consumer?) > market. > > SLC should (in theory) be twice the price per byte as MLC: as I > understand it, mainstream MLC cells store two bits (there is work on > increasing this) whereas SLC cells store one bit (by definition). 3 bit is pretty common too, and 4 bit is being worked on. > If you use SSD purely as cache, common sense says that it gets > hammered by writes. So SLC makes sense for this application. That, I > presume, is why Seagate uses SLC for its hybrid drives. Certainly makes sense. Also SLC is faster than MLC I believe. > If SLC is as expensive as RAM, why not use RAM? > > A cache that is stable (in the face of power failures and other system > crashes) is much more effective than one that is not, all other things > being equal. Loosing your write cache is awful. A non volatile write cache is really nice for performance. Battery backed ram is another valid option and many raid controllers use that option. > The classic example is databases: when a transaction is committed, it > must reach stable storage. The log could be held in SSD or disk, > but not conventional RAM (unconventional works: battery backed-up > hardware RAM-Disk). > > The same idea applies to many less formalised settings. Obviously > file-system operations are an example. > > > So: how should we Linux users use mass-market SSDs? > > - Consider desktops or other PC systems that are not space or weight > constrained. Mass-market (MLC) SSDs are 2.5" (usually) and are > cheap, large, and fast enough to hold filesystems. I use one for / > (which I can reconstruct if it goes south) but not /home (it's on a > conventional hard drive). I also like lots of disk space, something > that only hard drives can provide economically. > > - I think that the Seagate hybrid drives are quite attractive for > notebooks. They look just like an ordinary 2.5" hard drive but have > a transparent but effective SLC SSD cache. Certainly interesting. As soon as someone that isn't seagate has one out I will look at it. > - for many notebooks, SSDs make sense: 2.5" size makes them direct > replacements for notebook hard drives. Some notebooks even have > 1.8" slots which really are best for SSDs. Often notebooks don't > need the bulk capacity of hard drives. (120G SSD costs roughly > the same as a 1T hard drive.) Many people use their laptop as their main and only computer, so they do store a lot on it. > - I hesitate to use MLC SSDs as ordinary caches. I do feed my systems > lots of RAM for that. > > - some notebooks support mSATA drives in addition to their 2.5" drive > slot. mSATA SSDs are more expensive and slower than SATA ones but > I think that they could be worthwhile. I'm seriously thinking > of adding one to my new ThinkPad T520. > > > I installed a 120G SSD on my desktop a few months back. I use it for > /, not home. My impressions: > > - I only notice a few speed improvements: > > + booting is faster, but I rarely boot, so it isn't a big win > > + software updates are a lot faster ("yum update" in Fedora). > I think that the reason is that these operations are > random-access intensive. Still, I don't spend a lot of time > waiting upon Linux software update. > > - I'm pretty sure I'd notice a lot of slowdowns if I switched back. > That's just human nature. > > The way I use the SSD, 30G would probably be enough. As I get braver, > I might put more on it. My current desktop use doesn't really hammer > the disk. > > SSDs could be quite useful for databases. It depends on the actual > application of the databases. Lennart gave a good example, MythTV's > database (which does not include the actual recording files): I find > my Myth TV database is a bit slow on regular hard drives. When doing a scheduling table view requires writing a 1.1GB file to /tmp, you know the mythtv database has a lot going on. Well that and that mysql is a horrible database design. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Apr 24 22:47:10 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 18:47:10 -0400 Subject: new Amiga runs Linux, dressed up as Amiga OS In-Reply-To: <20120424214910.GE10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120424214910.GE10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 5:49 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 04:34:42PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> http://www.reghardware.com/2012/03/22/commodore_usa_outs_amiga_mini_desktop_pc/ > > Yeah that one isn't that interesting. Agreed. Something that says "Amiga", but that is just a thin Mac Mini case around a Linux box isn't nearly esoteric enough to have the "Amiga Nature." > This one is interesting: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmigaOne_X1000 I think I prefer the recent winner of the "Best Ball" category of the IOCCC... http://www.ioccc.org/2011/eastman/hint.html -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 25 00:25:58 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 20:25:58 -0400 Subject: new Amiga runs Linux, dressed up as Amiga OS In-Reply-To: References: <20120424214910.GE10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120425002558.GG10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 06:47:10PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > I think I prefer the recent winner of the "Best Ball" category of the IOCCC... > http://www.ioccc.org/2011/eastman/hint.html That is amazing. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 25 02:55:50 2012 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 22:55:50 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: <20120424215628.GF10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> <4F959DDE.6020400@gmail.com> <20120424215628.GF10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20120425025550.GK32666@adb.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > When doing a scheduling table view requires writing a 1.1GB file to /tmp, > you know the mythtv database has a lot going on. Could be worse: none /tmp tmpfs size=7g,mode=1777,nr_inodes=524288 0 0 which is enough space for Gentoo to rebuild libreoffice. ;-\ (FWIW, that box has 2G of RAM and 8G swap on part of an SSD.) -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 25 07:22:20 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 03:22:20 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: <20120424145622.GD10303-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> <20120423230936.GC10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120424145622.GD10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7208534 is the correct link to my torrent On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 09:18:29PM -0400, charles chris wrote: > > I had considered free file hosting because my web host can't handle large > > files. > > > > Browsers have a hard time downloading large files and cannot resume from > > where the download was broken. > > > > I considered 4shared.com but changed my mind because they don't allow > > parallel downloads. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_hosting_services > > Well bittorrent is handy for people without a distribution network. > Those that have actual servers are much better off ignoring bittorrent > since it is a resource hog and a waste of time. > > So redhat and debian and ubuntu should avoid bittorrent. > > Individuals without such a distribution system can do qutie well with > bittorrent. > > http://kernel.org/doc/ols/2008/ols2008v1-pages-173-182.pdf was a very > interesting paper and presentation on what is wrong with bittorrent for > large scale distribution. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Apr 25 14:17:59 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 10:17:59 -0400 Subject: SSDs In-Reply-To: <20120425025550.GK32666-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20120423173832.GA1005@yam.witteman.ca> <4F959DDE.6020400@gmail.com> <20120424215628.GF10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120425025550.GK32666@adb.ca> Message-ID: <20120425141758.GH10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:55:50PM -0400, Anthony de Boer wrote: > Could be worse: > > none /tmp tmpfs size=7g,mode=1777,nr_inodes=524288 0 0 > > which is enough space for Gentoo to rebuild libreoffice. ;-\ > > (FWIW, that box has 2G of RAM and 8G swap on part of an SSD.) When I discovered that misbehaviour of mysql I had a tmpfs with a 1GB limit as /tmp. This meant mysql kept crashing when it ran out of room for the tmp file. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 26 08:28:17 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 04:28:17 -0400 Subject: I am seeding an image of Linux Mint 9 LXDE In-Reply-To: References: <20120423170858.GY10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120423180007.GA10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4F95CD5A.30702@yaknet.ca> <20120423230936.GC10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20120424145622.GD10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: April 25, 2012, by Drpcdr.ca http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/LM9LXDE_16F.tbi http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/iflnet.iso http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/Read_Me.txt http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/BOOTITNG.ISO The above links to the same files I was unable to seed properly. Sorry for the inconvenience! NB My free Dropbox account allows a limit of 20 GB/file/day This means only 13 downloads per 24 hour period. The paid service would allow 130 downloads per day. My free account may be terminated at any time. On 4/25/12, charles chris wrote: > http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7208534 > > is the correct link to my torrent > > On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Lennart Sorensen < > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 09:18:29PM -0400, charles chris wrote: >> > I had considered free file hosting because my web host can't handle >> > large >> > files. >> > >> > Browsers have a hard time downloading large files and cannot resume >> > from >> > where the download was broken. >> > >> > I considered 4shared.com but changed my mind because they don't allow >> > parallel downloads. >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_hosting_services >> >> Well bittorrent is handy for people without a distribution network. >> Those that have actual servers are much better off ignoring bittorrent >> since it is a resource hog and a waste of time. >> >> So redhat and debian and ubuntu should avoid bittorrent. >> >> Individuals without such a distribution system can do qutie well with >> bittorrent. >> >> http://kernel.org/doc/ols/2008/ols2008v1-pages-173-182.pdf was a very >> interesting paper and presentation on what is wrong with bittorrent for >> large scale distribution. >> >> -- >> Len Sorensen >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > http://drpcdr.ca > http://jobcircle.ca > 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Apr 26 17:36:25 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 13:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ubuntu 12.04 LTS available today Message-ID: I've just downloaded the new Precise Pangolin i386 .iso. As usual, they make it awkward to authenticate: the checksums are not clear from the download page. If you go to an FTP directory (say ftp://ftp.telus.net/pub/ubuntu/12.04/), you will see checksums. I've not bothered to find an authoritative place to find the release's GPG key. When I do check the checksums, GPG whines in a way that I don't completely understand: [hugh at redsquare ubuntu-12.04]$ gpg --verify SHA256SUMS.gpg SHA256SUMS gpg: Signature made Thu 26 Apr 2012 05:54:04 AM EDT using DSA key ID FBB75451 gpg: checking the trustdb gpg: public key A3D025C7 is 383 seconds newer than the signature gpg: public key 970F6D91 is 1084 seconds newer than the signature gpg: public key FBBB8AB1 is 58138 seconds newer than the signature gpg: 3 marginal(s) needed, 1 complete(s) needed, PGP trust model gpg: depth: 0 valid: 1 signed: 0 trust: 0-, 0q, 0n, 0m, 0f, 1u gpg: Good signature from "Ubuntu CD Image Automatic Signing Key " gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature! gpg: There is no indication that the signature belongs to the owner. Primary key fingerprint: C598 6B4F 1257 FFA8 6632 CBA7 4618 1433 FBB7 5451 It seems odd that a key would be newer than a signature (on it? using it? The message isn't clear). There are links from to DVD images. With the additional space comes some additional stuff: For a copy of Ubuntu that includes all the language packs and some other useful applications, such as Inkscape, GIMP, Pitivi, plus a more complete LibreOffice suite, click on your nearest mirror from the list below, then navigate to the DVD folder. Do note that these images are too big to fit on CDs. If you don't need the full language pack, we recommend the standard CD installer as all other packages are available in the Software Centre. I think that I'd like the DVD image -- the other applications do seem useful. But perhaps that is just greed: many packages get updated from the internet anyway so the DVD version becomes useless. Unfortunately, I get a 404 when I try to download from the US mirror, the place that that page points us to. I have no immediate plans to install 12.04 i386, but I am using its memtest86+ to test some RAM I picked up yesterday. I use AMD64 versions where possible; none of those systems have CD drives that are not also DVD drives so I'm waiting for the DVD .iso. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 28 08:48:46 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 04:48:46 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.04 LTS available today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: April 25, 2012, by Drpcdr.ca http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf describes how Linux image was created Someone is seeding the torrent here: http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7220650 I am sharing files at Dropbox.com: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/LM9LXDE_16F.tbi http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/iflnet.iso http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/Read_Me.txt http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/BOOTITNG.ISO The above links to the same files I was unable to seed properly. Sorry for the inconvenience! NB My free Dropbox account allows a limit of 20 GB/file/day This means only 13 downloads per 24 hour period. The paid service would allow 130 downloads per day. My free account may be terminated at any time. -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 28 15:06:20 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:06:20 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.04 LTS available today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://db.tt/URHcmO27 Use the above link to get your free dropbox account Thanks in advance Chris On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 4:48 AM, charles chris wrote: > April 25, 2012, by Drpcdr.ca > > http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf describes how Linux image was created > > Someone is seeding the torrent here: > > http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7220650 > > I am sharing files at Dropbox.com: > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/LM9LXDE_16F.tbi > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/iflnet.iso > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/Read_Me.txt > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75743475/BOOTITNG.ISO > > The above links to the same files I was unable to seed properly. > > Sorry for the inconvenience! > > NB My free Dropbox account allows a limit of 20 GB/file/day > > This means only 13 downloads per 24 hour period. > > The paid service would allow 130 downloads per day. > > My free account may be terminated at any time. > > -- > http://drpcdr.ca > http://jobcircle.ca > 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 > > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 28 15:17:01 2012 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:17:01 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.04 LTS available today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9C09ED.2050607@gmail.com> On 12-04-28 04:48 , charles chris wrote: > > http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf describes how Linux image was created ... and this has what to do with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS? Upgraded my ham radio box in-place to 12.04. No hiccups. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 28 15:20:18 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:20:18 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 12.04 LTS available today In-Reply-To: <4F9C09ED.2050607-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F9C09ED.2050607@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry stewart: I should have just posted this message separately instead of replying to a post. I will be more careful next time! On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 12-04-28 04:48 , charles chris wrote: > > > > http://drpcdr.ca/LMLXDE.pdf describes how Linux image was created > > ... and this has what to do with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS? > > Upgraded my ham radio box in-place to 12.04. No hiccups. > > Stewart > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 28 22:45:19 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 18:45:19 -0400 Subject: flock() or lockf() Message-ID: <20120428224519.GA29644@node1.opengeometry.net> For file locking in C program on Linux, which should I use? flock() or lockf() -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 28 22:49:32 2012 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 18:49:32 -0400 Subject: Avoiding unattended upgrades? Message-ID: <4F9C73FC.7040807@the-wire.com> I see that Ubuntu is back to pushing unattended upgrades last thing in its security updates. My gut feeling is to disapprove: I don't think I'm my most productive if I constantly wonder what might have happened to my toolchains and system while my back was turned. Two questions: 1) Am I overreacting? 2) Are there any serious caveats about installing, say, Debian instead? I have my /home directories sequestered and backed up. I've learned that much, at least. Thanks, Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Apr 28 23:20:21 2012 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 16:20:21 -0700 Subject: Avoiding unattended upgrades? In-Reply-To: <4F9C73FC.7040807-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4F9C73FC.7040807@the-wire.com> Message-ID: Debian : depends on if the applications you use are available, or if you have source-installs etc that may not work. There's a fair but of stuff in ubuntu that may not be as readily available in Debian. One thing that's helpful is to back up your list of installed packages with "dpkg --get-selections > /path/to/backup.txt" prior to blowing away the current OS. On Apr 28, 2012 3:50 PM, "Mel Wilson" wrote: > I see that Ubuntu is back to pushing unattended upgrades last thing in its > security updates. My gut feeling is to disapprove: I don't think I'm my > most productive if I constantly wonder what might have happened to my > toolchains and system while my back was turned. Two questions: > > 1) Am I overreacting? > > 2) Are there any serious caveats about installing, say, Debian instead? I > have my /home directories sequestered and backed up. I've learned that > much, at least. > > Thanks, Mel. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 29 00:15:15 2012 From: bdwalton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ben Walton) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 20:15:15 -0400 Subject: flock() or lockf() In-Reply-To: <20120428224519.GA29644-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120428224519.GA29644@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: Hi William, On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 6:45 PM, William Park wrote: > For file locking in C program on Linux, which should I use? > ? ?flock() or lockf() I'd generally say lockf() (it's a POSIX interface) is a better choice than flock(). This is especially true if you will need to handle the NFS case, although this also depends on the NFS server being sufficiently capable. HTH. -Ben -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben Walton Take the risk of thinking for yourself. ?Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Apr 29 03:05:11 2012 From: cccharlz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (charles chris) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 23:05:11 -0400 Subject: Avoiding unattended upgrades? In-Reply-To: References: <4F9C73FC.7040807@the-wire.com> Message-ID: I always install OS onto free space! I always disable automatic updates! In Windows I always disable system restore I don't know why certain sites like yahoo mail coerce upgrading the browser Internet Explorer should never be upgraded while connected to the Internet In Windows I avoid installing software while connected to the Internet Linux is more secure and often requires installations be done from the Internet As far as data is concerned, I always move the data folders (documents, pics, music, videos, downloads, favorites, outlook data folders) to a separate partition (Linux and Windows). Linux home directory remains on the Linux native partition. I also create an image of the partition that contains the OS/programs and this image exists as 1 or more files written to the NTFS data partition. Just before I create the image, I like to schedule a scandisk to automatically fix errors on data partition and a boot-time virus scan to automatically delete viruses found on the data partition. To rescue the OS, simply restore the image to wipe OS partition and reset it back to original state when image was created. Because the data is NOT on the same partition as the OS, the data remains intact, untouched by the rescue procedure. This is the work of Drpcdr.ca On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 7:20 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Debian : depends on if the applications you use are available, or if you > have source-installs etc that may not work. There's a fair but of stuff in > ubuntu that may not be as readily available in Debian. > > One thing that's helpful is to back up your list of installed packages > with "dpkg --get-selections > /path/to/backup.txt" prior to blowing away > the current OS. > On Apr 28, 2012 3:50 PM, "Mel Wilson" wrote: > >> I see that Ubuntu is back to pushing unattended upgrades last thing in >> its security updates. My gut feeling is to disapprove: I don't think I'm >> my most productive if I constantly wonder what might have happened to my >> toolchains and system while my back was turned. Two questions: >> >> 1) Am I overreacting? >> >> 2) Are there any serious caveats about installing, say, Debian instead? >> I have my /home directories sequestered and backed up. I've learned that >> much, at least. >> >> Thanks, Mel. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists >> > -- http://drpcdr.ca http://jobcircle.ca 416 398 3772 OR 647 453 3327 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 02:38:49 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FireFox list-all-tabs button Message-ID: With FireFox 12, that button (looks a bit like a "v", near the right of the tab bar) becomes part-time. It only shows up when the tab bar overflows. That would seem to make sense. Why do you need it when you can see all the tabs? However, seeing all tabs is not the same as seeing all of the content of each tab. As the tabs get smaller, the descriptive text gets truncated and hard to recognize. The list-all-tabs button let you see much more of the content. So I really dislike this FireFox change. To reverse the change, I'm trying this add-on: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 04:39:12 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 00:39:12 -0400 Subject: FireFox list-all-tabs button In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120430043912.GA8263@node1.opengeometry.net> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 10:38:49PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > With FireFox 12, that button (looks a bit like a "v", near the right of > the tab bar) becomes part-time. It only shows up when the tab bar > overflows. > > That would seem to make sense. Why do you need it when you can see all > the tabs? However, seeing all tabs is not the same as seeing all of the > content of each tab. As the tabs get smaller, the descriptive text gets > truncated and hard to recognize. The list-all-tabs button let you see > much more of the content. > > So I really dislike this FireFox change. > > To reverse the change, I'm trying this add-on: > Yeah, I noticed the change today. I ended up move it one line up, where address box is. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 04:59:15 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 00:59:15 -0400 Subject: Curious situation with unlink() and open() Message-ID: <20120430045915.GA8272@node1.opengeometry.net> To C experts: unlink(2) takes path[] instead of 'fd'. How do people deal with the following situation? 1. Same file is open()ed in 2 different processes (same program, but different instances), so that you have fd1 and fd2. 2. Both fd1 and fd2 try for write-lock. Since fd1 started first, it gets the write-lock, while fd2 waits until fd1 is closed. That's fine. 3. You do some I/O with fd1. Then, you unlink() the original file, and close(fd1). Even though the file may be gone from sight, fd2 is still active, so inode2 is still there. 4. Now that fd1 is closed, fd2 gets the write-lock. You do some I/O with fd2, and close(fd2). 5. Since all reference to the original file is gone, the file is permanantly gone, along with all I/O done with fd2. Bummer! How do you keep what you did with fd2? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 12:07:10 2012 From: chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DAVID CHIPMAN) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 05:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Curious situation with unlink() and open() In-Reply-To: <20120430045915.GA8272-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120430045915.GA8272@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1335787630.76396.YahooMailNeo@web88605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: William Park To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 12:59:15 AM Subject: [TLUG]: Curious situation with unlink() and open() To C experts: unlink(2) takes path[] instead of 'fd'.? How do people deal with the following situation? ? ? 1. Same file is open()ed in 2 different processes (same program, but ? ? different instances), so that you have fd1 and fd2. ? ? 2. Both fd1 and fd2 try for write-lock.? Since fd1 started first, it ? ? gets the write-lock, while fd2 waits until fd1 is closed.? That's ? ? fine. ? ? 3. You do some I/O with fd1.? Then, you unlink() the original file, ? ? and close(fd1).? Even though the file may be gone from sight, fd2 is ? ? still active, so inode2 is still there. ? ? 4. Now that fd1 is closed, fd2 gets the write-lock.? You do some I/O ? ? with fd2, and close(fd2). ? ? 5. Since all reference to the original file is gone, the file is ? ? permanantly gone, along with all I/O done with fd2.? Bummer! How do you keep what you did with fd2? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists William, I'f I'm not mistaken, the inodes won't be erased until the fd2 is closed. -David -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 13:10:11 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:10:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Curious situation with unlink() and open() In-Reply-To: <20120430045915.GA8272-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120430045915.GA8272@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: | From: William Park | How do you keep what you did with fd2? If you want to keep it, don't delete the file. Pretty simple, really. What is the logic of the program such that it would delete a file that you don't want deleted? That's not a rhetorical question: if you can explain the logic, you can probably code it. One hacky solution to the problem as you posed it (not your real problem!) would be to create a (second) hard link to the file. Then deleting the first link does not cause the file to be deleted. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 14:06:29 2012 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:06:29 -0400 Subject: name workspaces in ubuntu/unity OR rename activitiesi n KDE Message-ID: Hey Folks, I'm being driven mildly insane by the attempt to make proper use of desktops in Ubuntu (unity) or activities in Kubuntu (KDE). I'm urnning an up-to-date install of 12.04 (Precise). what I want is to have my tasks oraganized in desktops or activities that i can identify by name. Each task should contain the windows I need for the task at hand and no others -- so, in my "Writing" task I want two Libreoffice windows open, one firefox window with a ocuple of research tabs, and a few windows from acroread or evince. In my "Coding" window I'll have emacs and another firefox window with a different set of tabs; and in "Procrastination and Busywork" I'll have thunderbird running, along witha third firefox window with newspapers & facebook & whatever. Here's what's driving me mad: - Unity does not seem to allow me to name my Desktops. Not such a big deal, but in the absence of names I can't seem to keep track of what windows are where. And also, totally frustrating, there's no way to save my window setup in case I need to logout or reboot -- whcih seems to happen more now thatn it used to. Also unity can be very frustrating to deal with, though I've started to get used to it after about 8 months... - I thought KDE activities would be the obvious solution here, but I cnanot figure out how to modify the properties of existing KDE activities. Every internet guide I've found suggests that there will be an "Activity" icon in the "Desktop Settings" window you can bring up in various ways under KDE. But I'm not seeing one anywhere -- the whole icon is missing, and in fact the configuration GUI is pretty barebones -- se ethis image, https://launchpadlibrarian.net/103617970/desktopsetting_noact.png . Not sure if these config options been moved somewhere else in recent KDE versions, but if so I'm not finding any documentation about it anywhere. Perhaps I'm missing some crucial packages? but if so, again, I can't tell what they might be. If anyone can help with either one of these I'd be so happy -- this is driving me crazy. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 14:18:04 2012 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: name workspaces in ubuntu/unity OR rename activitiesi n KDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Matt Price wrote: > Hey Folks, > > I'm being driven mildly insane by the attempt to make proper use of > desktops in Ubuntu (unity) or activities in Kubuntu (KDE). I'm urnning > an up-to-date install of 12.04 (Precise). > > what I want is to have my tasks oraganized in desktops or activities > that i can identify by name. Each task should contain the windows I > need for the task at hand and no others -- so, in my "Writing" task I > want two Libreoffice windows open, one firefox window with a ocuple of > research tabs, and a few windows from acroread or evince. In my > "Coding" window I'll have emacs and another firefox window with a > different set of tabs; and in "Procrastination and Busywork" I'll have > thunderbird running, along witha third firefox window with newspapers > & facebook & whatever. Here's what's driving me mad: > > - Unity does not seem to allow me to name my Desktops. Not such a big > deal, but in the absence of names I can't seem to keep track of what > windows are where. And also, totally frustrating, there's no way to > save my window setup in case I need to logout or reboot -- whcih seems > to happen more now thatn it used to. Also unity can be very > frustrating to deal with, though I've started to get used to it after > about 8 months... Try Windowmaker. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 15:31:32 2012 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Curious situation with unlink() and open() In-Reply-To: References: <20120430045915.GA8272@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <1335799892.24517.YahooMailNeo@web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> If file already exists, then I can accept it.? But, if file does not exist, then logic would go something like... fd1 creates a new file, but later on, decides it's notneeded. Since it was the one who created the file and has exclusive lock on it, fd1 unlink() the file and close(fd1).? In between fd1's open() and unlink(), fd2 sees the file and happily does I/O oblivious that what fd1 did.? After close(fd2), all the work of fd2 is gone, even though fd2's work happened after close(fd1). ? I think the issue is, lock is applied after open(), not before. But, you lock on file descriptor which open() gives you. -- William ----- Original Message ----- > From: D. Hugh Redelmeier > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:10:11 AM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Curious situation with unlink() and open() > >| From: William Park > > | How do you keep what you did with fd2? > > If you want to keep it, don't delete the file.? Pretty simple, really. > > What is the logic of the program such that it would delete a file that > you don't want deleted?? That's not a rhetorical question: if you can > explain the logic, you can probably code it. > > One hacky solution to the problem as you posed it (not your real > problem!) would be to create a (second) hard link to the file.? Then > deleting the first link does not cause the file to be deleted. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 15:37:49 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:37:49 -0400 Subject: Curious situation with unlink() and open() In-Reply-To: <20120430045915.GA8272-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120430045915.GA8272@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4F9EB1CD.5020801@ve3syb.ca> On 12-04-30 12:59 AM, William Park wrote: > unlink(2) takes path[] instead of 'fd'. How do people deal with the > following situation? Um... by not letting yourself get in to that situation as it indicates you have either a design or coding error. If two instances need to access a common file neither should delete it without notifying the other. On the other hand, if one instance may still need the contents of the file the other instance should not be making the decision to delete the file. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 15:47:17 2012 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:47:17 -0400 Subject: Help with custom Vim plugin Message-ID: <20120430154717.GA1317@watson-wilson.ca> Greetings, I would like to have a vim plugin installed system wide under /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/. This works fine except for help files. I created a helptags doc to go under /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/doc. When one tries to generate the help tags Vim tries to write them to the same location. This fails for normal users. What is the correct way to do about this? Should root generate the helptags one time during installation? How is that done via a script? -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From torfree-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 16:09:32 2012 From: torfree-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org (Slackrat) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:09:32 -0400 Subject: [OT] Parts for Sale Message-ID: <84ipghrykj.fsf@free.fr> _No Reasonable offer refused_ HP Tower: Internal Hard Drive 1: 320 gb Internal Hard Drive 2: 80 gb CDR/W Intel dual core CPU 6400 @ 2.13 Ghz 2 GB High Speed RAM USB External drive: USB (1) 1.0 TB Drive enclosure: - no HD - includes SATA bracket and cables if you wanted to go that way. Screen/Monitor/CRT: Gateway flat 21 inch (almost new) Cable Modem: DOCSIS 3.0 - high speed (Almost New) Ready For Teksavvy, Rogers, etc Router: TP-Link WR841N v5: (Almost new) with 4 Wired connections plus Wifi @ 300 MBps Sound box: Philips Booster and speakers. Book: Programming Windows + Disk This is SDK - not MS-Foundation Classes or whatever the term is in English. Also with this I'll include all the tools you will ever need to develop progs - None of which is hacked-cracked-pirated-etc. All Legal (Bloodshed's "Dev-Cpp" is the main item here plus Mysql) Also will throw in a proggy 90% complete and working for Accounting General Ledger and pass you the copyrights. Nice small hand vacuum cleaner for cleaning keyboards, tower and desktop full size boxes and lard to reach places. tel: 647 974 2769 email: slackrat-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org NON-PUTER STUFF Dining Room table and 4 Chairs Brand New - Never used Extender middle leaf Lazy Susan server (Cost $700) Coffee Table and 2 end tables (worn a bit) 2 Lamps Quantity of kitchen related items - EG: gram scale - mixer plus food items - $25 would be rock-bottom offer for this lot - worth much more. tel: 647 974 2769 email: slackrat-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org -- Bill Henderson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 16:10:49 2012 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:10:49 -0400 Subject: Help with custom Vim plugin In-Reply-To: <20120430154717.GA1317-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120430154717.GA1317@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4F9EB989.9070205@ve3syb.ca> On 12-04-30 11:47 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > I would like to have a vim plugin installed system wide under > /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/. This works fine except for help files. I created a > helptags doc to go under /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/doc. [snip] > This fails for normal users. If it works for root but not for regular users it is likely a permissions problem. If vim is creating some sort of expanded/cached version of the help files it is probably doing so with read perms for root only. Make vim create the "live" help files as root then check perms of the files and adjust them so all users can read the files. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 16:15:33 2012 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:15:33 -0400 Subject: Curious situation with unlink() and open() In-Reply-To: <20120430045915.GA8272-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20120430045915.GA8272@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20120430161533.GI10303@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 12:59:15AM -0400, William Park wrote: > To C experts: > > unlink(2) takes path[] instead of 'fd'. How do people deal with the > following situation? > 1. Same file is open()ed in 2 different processes (same program, but > different instances), so that you have fd1 and fd2. > > 2. Both fd1 and fd2 try for write-lock. Since fd1 started first, it > gets the write-lock, while fd2 waits until fd1 is closed. That's > fine. > > 3. You do some I/O with fd1. Then, you unlink() the original file, > and close(fd1). Even though the file may be gone from sight, fd2 is > still active, so inode2 is still there. > > 4. Now that fd1 is closed, fd2 gets the write-lock. You do some I/O > with fd2, and close(fd2). > > 5. Since all reference to the original file is gone, the file is > permanantly gone, along with all I/O done with fd2. Bummer! > > How do you keep what you did with fd2? Don't unlink the file if you don't want it gone. If you open the same inode twice, and then unlink it, anything you write to that inode still goes to the inode, since unlink does not take effect until all open handles to the inode are gone and no more directories link to it. So in your case you have two open handles, and one directory entry. You close one handle, unlink the directory entry and then close the other handle. It is now gone as it should be. If you want to be able to have handle two create a new file with the same name after whoever had handle one unlinked it, well then that's a very different problem and means you have to prevent handle two even opening the file while handle one is using it. It is doing exactly what you asked for. And this is not a C issue, this is a unix issue. I don't think windows lets you unlink a file while there are open handles to it. To do what you want you probably have to do some mechanism to make sure only one part of the program can even have the file open at a time, so that if one part deletes it, the next part would create a new file to write to with the same name. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 16:19:17 2012 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:19:17 -0400 Subject: Help with custom Vim plugin In-Reply-To: <4F9EB989.9070205-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20120430154717.GA1317@watson-wilson.ca> <4F9EB989.9070205@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20120430161917.GA2288@watson-wilson.ca> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 12:10:49PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote: >Make vim create the "live" help files as root then check perms of the >files and adjust them so all users can read the files. This is what is happening. When you issue :helptags /usr/share/vim/vimfiles/doc, Vim reads the txt files in that directory and creates a kind of index file in the same directory. User's can do this so there must be standard, script way to do this during installation. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 16:19:15 2012 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:19:15 -0400 Subject: Curious situation with unlink() and open() In-Reply-To: <1335799892.24517.YahooMailNeo-ywxMEV4duM8/JfqJOfUXs/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <20120430045915.GA8272@node1.opengeometry.net> <1335799892.24517.YahooMailNeo@web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F9EBB83.4040603@rogers.com> On 30/04/12 11:31 AM, William Park wrote: > > I think the issue is, lock is applied after open(), not before. > But, you lock on file descriptor which open() gives you. I think the issue is that it's a lock on writing the file (so the bits don't get garbled by two processes writing at the same time). It's not a lock on removing the file entirely. As others have said, the two processes have to coordinate, whether or not the file can be removed. The write lock is not the right mechanism for this coordination - you need additional program logic (maybe another file). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 18:40:51 2012 From: chris-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA at public.gmane.org (Mr Chris Aitken) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:40:51 -0400 Subject: more user-friendly than Update manager? Message-ID: <4F9EDCB3.5070200@chrisaitken.net> Is there a more user-friendly way to get updates than Update manager? I see hundreds of suggested updates for things like Evolution that I don't even use. You can't Shift+Click to deselect ranges of updates. So I have to click each update of hundreds. Is there a faster way to do this? Chris -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 19:10:46 2012 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: more user-friendly than Update manager? In-Reply-To: <4F9EDCB3.5070200-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F9EDCB3.5070200@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: | From: Mr Chris Aitken | Is there a more user-friendly way to get updates than Update manager? | | I see hundreds of suggested updates for things like Evolution that I don't | even use. You can't Shift+Click to deselect ranges of updates. So I have to | click each update of hundreds. | | Is there a faster way to do this? You don't say what distro you use. I am guessing Ubuntu. All those updates are for packages that you have installed. If you have them installed, it is probably a good idea to update them. If you find that a pain, then uninstall the ones you don't use. Note: some packages that you don't directly use are used by other packages. So you might not actually know which ones you are using. If you have a broadband internet connection, it is much easier to do all the suggested updates than to be selective. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 20:24:45 2012 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:24:45 -0400 Subject: more user-friendly than Update manager? In-Reply-To: <4F9EDCB3.5070200-n/jUll39koHNgV/OU4+dkA@public.gmane.org> References: <4F9EDCB3.5070200@chrisaitken.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Mr Chris Aitken wrote: > Is there a more user-friendly way to get updates than Update manager? > > I see hundreds of suggested updates for things like Evolution that I don't > even use. You can't Shift+Click to deselect ranges of updates. So I have to > click each update of hundreds. > > Is there a faster way to do this? I would suppose that if you don't use Evolution, and don't want updates for it, then perhaps you should tell the package manager to de-install it. Then, you could just install "everything" that is recommended, and get a more reasonable set. This can sometimes work out badly if you ask to de-install some part of (say) GNOME that a lot of other things depend on, some of which you *do* care about. My inclination would be to strategically pick certain things that I *know* I don't want. Evolution would be near the top of my list. I remove the set of undesirable things, which turns that "update of hundreds" into more of a dull roar of "dozens," which I'm rather more willing to accept. I just ran apt-get update/apt-get dist-upgrade on my work workstation; it's proposing to upgrade about 120 packages. I notice that it includes a bunch of mono packages. If I request to 'apt-get remove' one of them, that drops out a bunch of packages, the only one of which I care *at all* about being sparkleshare, which is loosely a "cloud filesystem" app. I'm willing to drop that, which cascades out 30 packages directly. A run of "apt-get autoremove" drops out another 30-ish packages, mostly libraries. I notice it's upgrading sisu, which I experimented with a while back; dropping that nukes ~6 more packages. After that, the list falls to 94 packages to upgrade. That looks like it'll take ~5 minutes, and I think I can live with that. Trying to have *no* updates seems like a losing battle to me. Your choices fall between two endpoints: a) Pick a distribution that doesn't bother updating anything anymore. That sucks, because it's likely got buggy software that won't get fixed, and some day, some of those bugs will affect you, and your only choice will be to do some sort of massively disruptive upgrade to a massively new version. "Oh, crap, Slackware 6.0 can't support my favorite app without me compiling all of GNOME from scratch by hand. Gotta upgrade." b) Pick a distribution that continually updates things. Debian/testing is a good case in point. That sucks, because you'll have something of a torrent of new versions of packages coming in. Mind you, as long as you do upgrades *reasonably* often, then there won't be a "massively disruptive upgrade." If you're running Ubuntu, and it's asking to update 100 packages, I'd think that if you imagine you want to NOT do that, then I draw the conclusion that Ubuntu is likely the wrong choice for you. Any time you find yourself fighting against your distribution's package management policies, then, more than likely, either: a) They're right, and you're wrong. (Which is pretty possible. The makers of the distribution should have greater competence at knowing how to manage it than you do.) b) The second possibility is that you want something that is good but that the distribution makers didn't intend to make easy. Which implies that you made a poor choice of distributions. c) Least likely is that you're right, and that they are morons. Which means you picked the wrong distribution, and you should see about choosing otherwise, immediately, if not sooner. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Apr 30 22:21:41 2012 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:21:41 -0400 Subject: openLDAP documentation assistance Message-ID: Hello all, I am trying to set openLDAP enforce password policy and I am getting in trouble figuring what these lines should go. Basically, I have the password schema in place, and the module outlay. Now, it look I will have to get LDAP configuration somewhere and also create a new organization unit that will go into the database. The later is easier to figure out where it should be placed, but I am having a hard time figuring where the ppolicy configuration should be placed. I am using the new cn=config setup and assume it should be one of the following: /etc/ldap/slapd.d/cn\=config.ldif /etc/ldap/slapd.d/cn=config/olcDatabase={-1}frontend.ldif /etc/ldap/slapd.d/cn=config/olcDatabase={0}config.ldif /etc/ldap/slapd.d/cn=config/olcDatabase={1}hdb.ldif http://www.openldap.org/doc/admin24/guide.html Look under section 12.10.2 Quote: Instantiate the module in the database where it will be used, after adding the new ppolicy schema and loading the ppolicy module. The following example shows the ppolicy module being added to the database that handles the naming context "dc=example,dc=com". In this example we are also specifying the DN of a policy object to use if none other is specified in a user's object. database bdb suffix "dc=example,dc=com" [...additional database configuration directives go here...] overlay ppolicy ppolicy_default "cn=default,ou=policies,dc=example,dc=com" End of quote: Where the heck should above go? Have anybody here working with password policy outlay before? Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists