From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 1 01:04:29 2011 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 21:04:29 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20110921234524.GY15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7CCC90.6040203@rogers.com> <004501cc7f60$3a3e9670$aebbc350$@com> <20110930182429.GH17017@adb.ca> <4E86232F.4000309@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4E86671D.7000209@ss.org> On 09/30/2011 04:24 PM, Michael Hill wrote: > On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Stephen wrote: > >> So what will this do to motherboard sales? >> >> You build your own computer, you can only install windows???? > Only if you give Microsoft their cut... otherwise you can't install anything. > > Mike > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists The UEFI is only meant for pre-installed Windows 8 (Logo Program, ie, you build it and install this way, you can put the MS windows log on the case). It's not in motherboard maker's interest to enable those security features when selling bare boards. If the did, the would severely cut their market as system builder would avoid it. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 1 01:41:21 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 21:41:21 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: <4E86671D.7000209-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20110921234524.GY15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7CCC90.6040203@rogers.com> <004501cc7f60$3a3e9670$aebbc350$@com> <20110930182429.GH17017@adb.ca> <4E86232F.4000309@rogers.com> <4E86671D.7000209@ss.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote: > On 09/30/2011 04:24 PM, Michael Hill wrote: >> >> On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Stephen ?wrote: >> >>> So what will this do to motherboard sales? >>> >>> You build your own computer, you can only install windows???? >> >> Only if you give Microsoft their cut... otherwise you can't install >> anything. >> >> Mike >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > The UEFI is only meant for pre-installed Windows 8 (Logo Program, ie, you > build it and install this way, you can put the MS windows log on the case). > It's not in motherboard maker's interest to enable those security features > when selling bare boards. If the did, the would severely cut their market as > system builder would avoid it. Sigh, no. Windows 8 will not boot without UEFI and there is to be no way for the user to disable UEFI. In other words if the motherboard makers don't include UEFI they know they will loose the Windows market (ie: 90+% of their sales). This may suck to the system builders, but they are not going to sacrifice that big a share of their market... Again have a look at : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/21/secure_boot_firmware_linux_exclusion_fears/ > -- > Scott Sullivan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 1 01:59:50 2011 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 21:59:50 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20110921234524.GY15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7CCC90.6040203@rogers.com> <004501cc7f60$3a3e9670$aebbc350$@com> <20110930182429.GH17017@adb.ca> <4E86232F.4000309@rogers.com> <4E86671D.7000209@ss.org> Message-ID: <4E867416.2060101@ss.org> On 09/30/2011 09:41 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> On 09/30/2011 04:24 PM, Michael Hill wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Stephen wrote: >>> >>>> So what will this do to motherboard sales? >>>> >>>> You build your own computer, you can only install windows???? >>> Only if you give Microsoft their cut... otherwise you can't install >>> anything. >>> >>> Mike >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> The UEFI is only meant for pre-installed Windows 8 (Logo Program, ie, you >> build it and install this way, you can put the MS windows log on the case). >> It's not in motherboard maker's interest to enable those security features >> when selling bare boards. If the did, the would severely cut their market as >> system builder would avoid it. > Sigh, no. Windows 8 will not boot without UEFI and there is to be no > way for the user to disable UEFI. In other words if the motherboard > makers don't include UEFI they know they will loose the Windows market > (ie: 90+% of their sales). This may suck to the system builders, but > they are not going to sacrifice that big a share of their market... > Again have a look at : > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/21/secure_boot_firmware_linux_exclusion_fears/ Collin, I've read the Articles, there is a difference between UEFI and UEFI + Key Signed Boot. I already own UEFI motherboards, it's true that manufacturers are moving there. What I was pointing out is that it is not in the interest of the manufactures, when selling bare board at _retail_, to enable the Key Signed Boot. What form that will take depends, but options include a generic key or disabling the security features outright. Also, when I refer to System Builder's, I mean small independent persons or shops, not OEMs like Dell, Lenovo or HP (well... not HP anymore). As I've read and understand, Windows 8 will require UEFI. And for those wanting to be part of the Logo Program, part of that means for OEMs, is configuring UEFI with Key Signed Boot. Personally, I agree with the concerns and that this needs to be addressed as the situation progresses. But there is a lot of play as to where the pendulum will finally end up. One thing that I think will be interesting to watch is how the Chinese market reacts to this, or any other large market with a lot of Piracy in it. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 1 04:47:07 2011 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 00:47:07 -0400 Subject: Britain's Digital Economy Act (long) In-Reply-To: <4947bf8b4411d1288dbcc3656fe7d7c8.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <4947bf8b4411d1288dbcc3656fe7d7c8.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 2:41 PM, wrote: > > Today in Daily Kos: > http://dailykos.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Britain's Digital Economy Act is coming to America > by brooklynbadboy > Mon May 24, 2010 at 07:00:03 AM PDT > The EFF strongly opposes ACTA much as it opposed the awful Digital Economy > Act in Britian. Liberal Democrat leader, now Deputy Prime Minister Nick > Clegg promised to repeal it if elected. However, the new Conservative > minister responsible for the law has made it clear it is here to stay. That would be the same ACTA Canada just signed on to: Here's an excerpt: "Following the signature of ACTA, the Government of Canada will develop and introduce the necessary legislation to implement the agreement. The government has already taken steps to enforce and defend intellectual property rights and help balance the needs of creators and users by reintroducing its Copyright Modernization Act (Bill C-11) in Parliament on September 29. The bill informed and guided Canada?s approach to the ACTA negotiations." -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 1 18:25:48 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 14:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today: cheap 16 port gig switch Message-ID: TRENDnet TEGS16DG Gigabit GREENnet Switch - 16x 10/100/100 Ports At $79.97 + $8.17 shipping, this seems like a good sale. Not available in the B&M stores. "Green" sounds good. No fan. No ears for rack mounting (not 19" wide either). US Newegg.com ($159.99) reviews are mostly good. Some suggest interference with WiFi -- a bit of a concern. The sale ends today. I've ordered one. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 1 18:35:06 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2011 14:35:06 -0400 Subject: today: cheap 16 port gig switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E875D5A.9080607@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > TRENDnet TEGS16DG Gigabit GREENnet Switch - 16x 10/100/100 Ports > > > At $79.97 + $8.17 shipping, this seems like a good sale. > > Not available in the B&M stores. > > "Green" sounds good. No fan. No ears for rack mounting (not 19" wide > either). > > US Newegg.com ($159.99) reviews are mostly good. Some suggest > interference with WiFi -- a bit of a concern. > > > The sale ends today. I've ordered one. > I believe that should be 10/100/1000. However, last January, I bought a Cisco 16 port 10/100 switch for $50 from the local TigerDirect store. > "Green" sounds good. Does it come in any other colours? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 17:43:46 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 13:43:46 -0400 Subject: Britain's Digital Economy Act (long) In-Reply-To: References: <4947bf8b4411d1288dbcc3656fe7d7c8.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20111003174346.GG15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 12:47:07AM -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 2:41 PM, wrote: > > > > Today in Daily Kos: > > http://dailykos.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Britain's Digital Economy Act is coming to America > > by brooklynbadboy > > Mon May 24, 2010 at 07:00:03 AM PDT > > > The EFF strongly opposes ACTA much as it opposed the awful Digital Economy > > Act in Britian. Liberal Democrat leader, now Deputy Prime Minister Nick > > Clegg promised to repeal it if elected. However, the new Conservative > > minister responsible for the law has made it clear it is here to stay. > > That would be the same ACTA Canada just signed on to: > > > > Here's an excerpt: > > "Following the signature of ACTA, the Government of Canada will > develop and introduce the necessary legislation to implement the > agreement. The government has already taken steps to enforce and > defend intellectual property rights and help balance the needs of > creators and users by reintroducing its Copyright Modernization Act > (Bill C-11) in Parliament on September 29. The bill informed and > guided Canada?s approach to the ACTA negotiations." Balance of course means "screw the user while doing nothing to actually prevent mass piracy". -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 17:48:59 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 13:48:59 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: References: <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20110921234524.GY15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7CCC90.6040203@rogers.com> <004501cc7f60$3a3e9670$aebbc350$@com> <20110930182429.GH17017@adb.ca> <4E86232F.4000309@rogers.com> <4E86671D.7000209@ss.org> Message-ID: <20111003174859.GH15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 09:41:21PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Sigh, no. Windows 8 will not boot without UEFI and there is to be no > way for the user to disable UEFI. In other words if the motherboard > makers don't include UEFI they know they will loose the Windows market > (ie: 90+% of their sales). This may suck to the system builders, but > they are not going to sacrifice that big a share of their market... > Again have a look at : > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/21/secure_boot_firmware_linux_exclusion_fears/ Windows 8 will work without UEFI and will boot. However you can't get a Windows 8 Certified logo on a box that doesn't have UEFI with secure boot enabled by default. People can still buy and install windows 8, but any machine that wants the "windows 8 logo" has to meet those specs. Windows 7 64bit already works on both UEFI and BIOS based systems, and windows 8 won't be any different. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 17:54:08 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 13:54:08 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: <004501cc7f60$3a3e9670$aebbc350$@com> References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20110921234524.GY15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7CCC90.6040203@rogers.com> <004501cc7f60$3a3e9670$aebbc350$@com> Message-ID: <20111003175408.GI15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 07:00:54AM -0400, Alex Gabriel wrote: > Sorry for the late weigh in, but here are some of my thoughts on this > matter. > > Having read the discourses on this topic on this and another list, and > having read the article, I can see the reason for concern. > > As far as I understand the situation, this has not moved past the discussion > phase. > > If it comes to pass, then Linux users will be required to be more selective > in their choice of hardware distributor. There are quite a few businesses > that sell prebuilt machines without an operating system. > > If Microsoft chooses to implement this idea and, by virtue of their buying > power, to coerce vendors into adopting it, then those that sell systems > without an operating system can only benefit from the increased sales caused > thereby. > > While this does pose a restriction on the possible number of previously > constructed computers available, why is this a bad thing? > > Selling Windows as part of the computer purchase drives up the cost to all > parties, especially the consumer. Additionally, it increases the perceived > market share of Microsoft because the numbers touted do not reflect > instances where Windows is immediately removed by the user. As there's no > central body to maintain figures on the prevalence of Linux, and not > everyone will report their preferences, there's no relevant data on the > adoption of Linux. > > Really, this isn't much different than the tactics employed by Apple in > regard to their computers. They force you to buy their hardware if you want > the operating system. Why is there no hue and cry against them? If you choose to run apple's OS, you have to buy apple hardware to run it on. If you choose to buy a PC, you have to run windows on it. Does that seem like they are the same to you? You can run any OS you want on apples hardware if you buy it. You can run anything you want on a PC if you buy it, except you can't buy it without windows which is not even the company you are buying a PC from, and in some cases if it is a logo certified windows 8 PC you might not actually be able to run anything you want. > Overall, I see this as something, that, should it happen, will be painful, > but will ultimately benefit the consumer as more companies will be required > to fill the need for computers without Windows. It may very well case a pile of useless landfill to be created in a few years when off lease business PCs can't run something other than windows 8. This assuming business PCs are locked down without a BIOS/UEFI option to turn off microsoft only boot. Given how businesses hate moving to the latest OS right away, I don't see those machines as being likely to not have the option however, so perhaps it won't be a problem after all. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 19:55:13 2011 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 15:55:13 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question Message-ID: I've been having rotten luck with reliability of 1TB drives, so I'm finally biting the bullet and trying to figure out RAID. So far I have a tenuous, but (seemingly) working grasp of how to make device mapper do RAID1 and how to make it play nice with grub and LVM. My question: is it possible to do a new install into a sort of "degraded" RAID1 setup with only a single drive, and then add the second drive later, or do I need to wait until I acquire the second drive before installing? Thanks, Andrej -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 19:59:56 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 12:59:56 -0700 Subject: Stupid RAID question Message-ID: When you do the "assemble", just build with a single element rather than two. The wikipedia article on mdadm is pretty useful On Oct 3, 2011 12:55 PM, "Andrej Marjan" wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 20:13:38 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 16:13:38 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111003201338.GJ15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 03:55:13PM -0400, Andrej Marjan wrote: > I've been having rotten luck with reliability of 1TB drives, so I'm finally > biting the bullet and trying to figure out RAID. So far I have a tenuous, > but (seemingly) working grasp of how to make device mapper do RAID1 and how > to make it play nice with grub and LVM. > > My question: is it possible to do a new install into a sort of "degraded" > RAID1 setup with only a single drive, and then add the second drive later, > or do I need to wait until I acquire the second drive before installing? It could be done, but I doubt any linux distribution installer supports it. So it would involve manual work. As for device mapper, don't use it. Really. Just don't. It doesn't work with any of the bootloaders properly, and if a disk fails it becomes unbootable until you repair it with the windows tool for that particular fakeraid. If you are only going to run linux on this raid, then use pure linux software raid, do not get tempted by the fakeraid the BIOS may offer. Let mdadm do its thing, and tell grub to install to the MBR of both drives. Then it works great. If you for some reason do want to dual boot linux and windows and you want raid under both and you are not willing to drop a few hundred dollars on a hardware raid card from 3ware or areca, then it is theoretically possible to use the fakeraid, and you can even convince grub to use it with some proding (it won't figure it out automatically) and use mdadm to manage it (recent mdadm 3.x support fakeraid in intel and the industry standard format, whatever it is called). I have this on one machine at home, and after giving up on device mapper and going to mdadm to manage it, at least it now can resync and handle drive failures, and grub2 almost installs automaticly (device mapper only works with grub 0.97 and only with a very convoluted manual install). I just have one step left to explain to the initramfs about how to start the raid that for some reason it still hasn't got right. So in other words, it is still extremely painful. So md software raid, or hardware raid or a lot of headaches. Those are the three choices. I run md raid on almost every machine I deal with, except a few machines at work that are servers have hardware raid, and the one fakeraid machine at home which is now using mdadm. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 23:03:42 2011 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:03:42 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Andrej Marjan wrote: > I've been having rotten luck with reliability of 1TB drives, so I'm finally > biting the bullet and trying to figure out RAID. So far I have a tenuous, > but (seemingly) working grasp of how to make device mapper do RAID1 and how > to make it play nice with grub and LVM. > > My question: is it possible to do a new install into a sort of "degraded" > RAID1 setup with only a single drive, and then add the second drive later, > or do I need to wait until I acquire the second drive before installing? > It depends. It's usual, and actually quite typical to have the OS and boot system in a non-RAID drive and then start your array from that disk. For example, older servers had a boot-up IDE drive and then from there you would start the array. You have to differentiate software and hardware raids. There are some cheap motherboards out there that actually support some RAID over SATA but usually very limited to RAID 0 or RAID 1, and sometimes level 5. Anyway, for most applications level 5 is overkill and you need to have many drives for it to be really effective. I honestly wouldn't use cheap SATA RAID controllers as these usually require a software component as well and are really not as reliable as true hardware RAID (e.g. 3com). For usual street hardware (off-the-shelf SATA MBs) software RAID 10 (1+ 0 nested) is the best cost/effective and fault tolerant solution I have worked with, on cheap hardware. It only requires 4 drives for the array and tolerates one drive failure on each side. I usually use a separate boot drive in any case and is usually a good idea. So my recommendation use 3 or 5 drives: 1 small boot drive and then 2 others in raid 1, or 4 in raid 10 Best, -- Alejandro Imass > Thanks, > > Andrej > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 23:27:54 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:27:54 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > It depends. It's usual, and actually quite typical to have the OS and > boot system in a non-RAID drive and then start your array from that > disk. For example, older servers had a boot-up IDE drive and then from > there you would start the array. > Hmm, why would you do that whem you can boot straight on the RAID system and hence avoid single point of failure? That was a good solution when GRUB was not able to handle RAID > > 1 small boot drive and then 2 others in raid 1, or 4 in raid 10 > RAID 10 would waste too much space I think. For more than 3 drives, RAID 5 would offer him more space. That would still be an overkill for a personal desktop. A RAID 1 on two drive would be the cheapest solution > > -- > Alejandro Imass > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Andrej > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 3 23:48:14 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:48:14 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111003234814.GA2898@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 07:27:54PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > > It depends. It's usual, and actually quite typical to have the OS > > and boot system in a non-RAID drive and then start your array from > > that disk. For example, older servers had a boot-up IDE drive and > > then from there you would start the array. > > > Hmm, why would you do that whem you can boot straight on the RAID > system and hence avoid single point of failure? That was a good > solution when GRUB was not able to handle RAID I don't think you can boot off RAID5, yet. All the docs talk about booting from RAID0 or RAID1. For the OP... I recommend going directly to 'mdadm' software raid. You may want to try your "device mapper", but you'll find that it's dependent on BIOS to do its "fake raid". -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 00:43:36 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:43:36 -0700 Subject: Stupid RAID question Message-ID: Make a small raid-1 partition for /boot, and put your LVM on a raid-5 for the rest. Works great On Oct 3, 2011 4:49 PM, "William Park" wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 00:44:09 2011 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:44:09 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 7:27 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > >> It depends. It's usual, and actually quite typical to have the OS and >> boot system in a non-RAID drive and then start your array from that >> disk. For example, older servers had a boot-up IDE drive and then from >> there you would start the array. >> > Hmm, why would you do that whem you can boot straight on the RAID system and > hence avoid single point of failure? That was a good solution when GRUB was > not able to handle RAID > Usually you want to separate your booting OS from your RAID volumes. It's actually standard practice. >> >> 1 small boot drive and then 2 others in raid 1, or 4 in raid 10 >> > RAID 10 would waste too much space I think. For more than 3 drives, RAID 5 > would offer him more space. That would still be an overkill for a personal > desktop. A RAID 1 on two drive would be the cheapest solution > Again it depends on what is your goal: reduce risk, performance, size of the array? RAID 10 usually provides the lowest level of risk and the simplicity greatly outweighs RAID 5 in most situations where you have a small number of spindles. Anything less than 10 drives I would usually go with RAID 10 despite the "less" space (not actually that much less). In RAID 10 with just 4 drives you can have one drive fail on each side and the array is fully functional. In RAID 5 any 2 drive failure renders the array unusable, you will need to rebuild, etc. Regarding Linux software raid in particular, I had a very bad experience with mdadm/RAID 5 in the past. I mean, it works in the lab, but in a real world scenario, it will bite you in the ass, so I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. But RAID 10 is usually very simple and straight forward, very stable and very fault tolerant especially if you have S.M.A.R.T. working. With cheap commercial drives you can bet that all your drives will fail almost simultaneously, so it's very common for 2 drives to fail in any cheap array, one right after the other. Furthermore, if the application is random-write intensive (e.g. RDBMS storage) RAID 5 will kill the performance of the DB unless it's a very large SAN implementation with *very* professional hardware. Disk drives are relatively cheap nowadays and RAID 10 is being preferred all across the board for many reasons, especially for slow and unstable software raid. My real world 0.02: If you are limited in budget for a real hardware RAID it's usually best to stick to raid 1 or raid 10 with a small number of spindles. For example, with a relatively cheap and good quality 1000 watt power supply (e.g. Agiler) you can easily fit 5 SATA drives: 1 for boot and 4 for a raid 10 array. Some boards still have the IDE port which is ideal for the boot disk. As to having a separate boot disk versus booting directly on the array, I would almost always have a separate boot disk but it's a question of choice. A single point of failure for the OS is OK IMHO, but it's never OK for your data! Hence the 3-layer separation is usually good practice: (a) base system, (b) application software, (c) data. Boot drive will only be used for that: boot and you can even enable and setup spin-down on that particular drive. Cheers, -- Alejandro Imass >> >> -- >> Alejandro Imass >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Andrej >> > >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 01:36:17 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:36:17 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8A6311.1000201@rogers.com> Alejandro Imass wrote: > It depends. It's usual, and actually quite typical to have the OS and > boot system in a non-RAID drive and then start your array from that > disk. For example, older servers had a boot-up IDE drive and then from > there you would start the array. > > I recently set up a RAID array at work and a while ago at home. I have /boot on non RAID, but apparently it can be on RAID1. On the work server, I used a 2 GB slice of the 1st drive for /boot and used the 2 GB slices on the other 3 drives for swap. I used the rest of the drive space for RAID5 I then put LVM on top of the RAID array. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 14:43:37 2011 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:43:37 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Andrej Marjan wrote: > I've been having rotten luck with reliability of 1TB drives, so I'm finally > biting the bullet and trying to figure out RAID. So far I have a tenuous, > but (seemingly) working grasp of how to make device mapper do RAID1 and how > to make it play nice with grub and LVM. > > My question: is it possible to do a new install into a sort of "degraded" > RAID1 setup with only a single drive, and then add the second drive later, > or do I need to wait until I acquire the second drive before installing? > > Thanks, > > Andrej > Thanks to everyone for the informative responses. It seems that among other things, I got the terminology wrong: I'm actually looking at using mdadm with 2 drives in a RAID 1 setup with drives from different batches or manufacturers. I have good backups, so the specific failure case to be avoided is when the drive dies and I have no computer until I get another drive and waste a bunch of time re-installing. Anything more (RAID5, RAID10) seems like it would be overkill for me. So I think the solution would be, for each drive: - 512MB RAID1 boot partition, formatted to ext3 - 8 GB swap - rest of the drive RAID1 partition with LVM for root and home, all ext4 at this time - grub in the MBR of both disks Done right, this is supposed to survive a single hard drive failure (either disk can boot into a working system by itself) and give me a few days to replace the other drive and rebuild the RAID. Am I missing something? Thanks again, Andrej -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 17:50:17 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1317750617.31922.YahooMailNeo@web113413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >So I think the solution would be, for each drive: >- 512MB RAID1 boot partition, formatted to ext3 >- 8 GB swap >- rest of the drive RAID1 partition with LVM for root and home, all ext4 at this time Everything else looks ok.? But, I don't think you need LVM here.? Just put / and /home in the same filesystem.? >- grub in the MBR of both disks -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 19:11:04 2011 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 15:11:04 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: <1317750617.31922.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOH6X00i2u5GFvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1317750617.31922.YahooMailNeo@web113413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 1:50 PM, William Park wrote: > >So I think the solution would be, for each drive: > > >- 512MB RAID1 boot partition, formatted to ext3 > >- 8 GB swap > >- rest of the drive RAID1 partition with LVM for root and home, all ext4 > at this time > > Everything else looks ok. But, I don't think you need LVM here. Just put > / and /home > in the same filesystem. > Usually I've placed / and /home on separate partitions to make changing distributions quicker (just install, no need to restore files from backup). That was my motivation for throwing LVM in there. I suppose I could make two RAID partitions instead. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 20:26:28 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:26:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Andrej Marjan | with 2 drives in a RAID 1 setup with drives from different batches or | manufacturers. Yeah. And soon there will only be two manufacturers, so good luck in diversity in systems larger than 2 disks. If you really have an IDE / PATA interface, I wonder about putting /boot on a Compart Flash device and using one of those inexpensive gizmos that allows them to be plugged into PATA. Apparently not all of them support DMA which may matter. /boot isn't used after booting so the small capacity wouldn't matter and the physical space and power would be small. Besides, it would be easy to have another in your desk as a spare. Note that most current consumer hard drives are not suitable for RAID. The can take a large amount of time doing internal error recover, enough that the RAID system decides the whole drive is dead. That is a practical disaster because rebuilding an array on a 2TB disk takes a large portion of a day. See for example: This is a scam as far as I'm concerned. Perpetrated by the last two surviving drive manufacturers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 21:27:33 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:27:33 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: <20111003234814.GA2898-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111003234814.GA2898@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20111004212733.GK15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 07:48:14PM -0400, William Park wrote: > I don't think you can boot off RAID5, yet. All the docs talk about > booting from RAID0 or RAID1. Hardware raid can boot from anything of course. Software raid, not so. I personally use a 50GB raid 1 for / and another 50GB raid 1 for /home, and then the remaining space on my 4 drives as a raid 5 for LVM to store everything else (like most of /var and other data heavy locations on a mythtv box). > For the OP... I recommend going directly to 'mdadm' software raid. > You may want to try your "device mapper", but you'll find that it's > dependent on BIOS to do its "fake raid". Even mdadm with bios fake raid is tricky, although less so than device mapper was. Pure linux md software raid is by far the simplest and most reliable. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 21:33:48 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:33:48 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111004213348.GL15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 08:44:09PM -0400, Alejandro Imass wrote: > Usually you want to separate your booting OS from your RAID volumes. > It's actually standard practice. Standard practice on servers with hardware raid controllers and a lot of disks. Often the OS disks are a different performance characteristic than the data drives too. > Again it depends on what is your goal: reduce risk, performance, size > of the array? > > RAID 10 usually provides the lowest level of risk and the simplicity > greatly outweighs RAID 5 in most situations where you have a small > number of spindles. Anything less than 10 drives I would usually go > with RAID 10 despite the "less" space (not actually that much less). > In RAID 10 with just 4 drives you can have one drive fail on each side > and the array is fully functional. In RAID 5 any 2 drive failure > renders the array unusable, you will need to rebuild, etc. Raid 5 takes a lot of CPU unless you have a hardware raid controller or other xor engine to do the lifting. RAID 0 and 1 are completely trivial. So yeah raid 10 is a nice way to get the performance of stripping and the reliability of mirroring without the overhead of xor calculations of raid 3+ (usually 5 or 6), but at the cost of some disk space. > Regarding Linux software raid in particular, I had a very bad > experience with mdadm/RAID 5 in the past. I mean, it works in the lab, > but in a real world scenario, it will bite you in the ass, so I > wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. But RAID 10 is usually very > simple and straight forward, very stable and very fault tolerant > especially if you have S.M.A.R.T. working. With cheap commercial > drives you can bet that all your drives will fail almost > simultaneously, so it's very common for 2 drives to fail in any cheap > array, one right after the other. raid 5 with mdadm has been running fine for a number of years for me, including a few disk migrations (from 500GB to 1TB drives on a live system hotswapping one disk at a time and rebuilding). > Furthermore, if the application is random-write intensive (e.g. RDBMS > storage) RAID 5 will kill the performance of the DB unless it's a very > large SAN implementation with *very* professional hardware. Disk > drives are relatively cheap nowadays and RAID 10 is being preferred > all across the board for many reasons, especially for slow and > unstable software raid. Certainly getting the filesystem block size and the raid stripe size matched makes a huge difference, and small random I/Os hurt raid 5. > My real world 0.02: If you are limited in budget for a real hardware > RAID it's usually best to stick to raid 1 or raid 10 with a small > number of spindles. For example, with a relatively cheap and good > quality 1000 watt power supply (e.g. Agiler) you can easily fit 5 SATA > drives: 1 for boot and 4 for a raid 10 array. Some boards still have > the IDE port which is ideal for the boot disk. I am personally not willing to have any disk without at least raid 1, and that includes boot. I value my time. > As to having a separate boot disk versus booting directly on the > array, I would almost always have a separate boot disk but it's a > question of choice. A single point of failure for the OS is OK IMHO, > but it's never OK for your data! I don't think any single point of failure when it comes to disks is acceptable. Disks are too cheap for that. Boot should be raid 1 at minimum. > Hence the 3-layer separation is usually good practice: (a) base > system, (b) application software, (c) data. > > Boot drive will only be used for that: boot and you can even enable > and setup spin-down on that particular drive. I am not wasting a disk interface for something just to boot the system. I suppose a USB key could be acceptable and then boot from USB. But still, I really couldn't be bothered. Booting from software raid 1 has been super reliable in linux for over a decade now, why not use it? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 21:35:30 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:35:30 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: <4E8A6311.1000201-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8A6311.1000201@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111004213530.GM15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 09:36:17PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > I recently set up a RAID array at work and a while ago at home. I > have /boot on non RAID, but apparently it can be on RAID1. On the > work server, I used a 2 GB slice of the 1st drive for /boot and used > the 2 GB slices on the other 3 drives for swap. I used the rest of > the drive space for RAID5 I then put LVM on top of the RAID array. Just remember that if your swap is NOT on raid, then a drive failure crashes the system and corrupts data. I don't know why so many people can't understand that basic concept. raid 0 is NOT something you use for swap. It is only something to use for unimportant temporary data that you don't need to keep. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 21:38:01 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:38:01 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111004213801.GN15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 10:43:37AM -0400, Andrej Marjan wrote: > Thanks to everyone for the informative responses. It seems that among other > things, I got the terminology wrong: I'm actually looking at using mdadm > with 2 drives in a RAID 1 setup with drives from different batches or > manufacturers. I have good backups, so the specific failure case to be > avoided is when the drive dies and I have no computer until I get another > drive and waste a bunch of time re-installing. Anything more (RAID5, RAID10) > seems like it would be overkill for me. > > So I think the solution would be, for each drive: > - 512MB RAID1 boot partition, formatted to ext3 > - 8 GB swap Swap must be raid 1 as well. Might as well put it in the lvm in fact. > - rest of the drive RAID1 partition with LVM for root and home, all ext4 at > this time > - grub in the MBR of both disks Yep. > Done right, this is supposed to survive a single hard drive failure (either > disk can boot into a working system by itself) and give me a few days to > replace the other drive and rebuild the RAID. > > Am I missing something? My personal experience has made me never ever want to try root on lvm ever again. if something goes wrong with the lvm it is much harder to recover if you can't boot the system normally until it is fixed. That is why I use a larger raid 1 for root (including boot), and use lvm for swap, data, etc. No reason not to swap on lvm. I do it all the time. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 21:42:33 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:42:33 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111004214233.GO15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:26:28PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Yeah. And soon there will only be two manufacturers, so good luck in > diversity in systems larger than 2 disks. > > If you really have an IDE / PATA interface, I wonder about putting > /boot on a Compart Flash device and using one of those inexpensive > gizmos that allows them to be plugged into PATA. Apparently not all > of them support DMA which may matter. /boot isn't used after booting > so the small capacity wouldn't matter and the physical space and power > would be small. Besides, it would be easy to have another in your > desk as a spare. > > Note that most current consumer hard drives are not suitable for RAID. > The can take a large amount of time doing internal error recover, > enough that the RAID system decides the whole drive is dead. That is > a practical disaster because rebuilding an array on a 2TB disk takes a > large portion of a day. See for example: > > This is a scam as far as I'm concerned. Perpetrated by the last two > surviving drive manufacturers. No I don't consider that a scam. Most consumers don't use raid, so if the drive can recover from a failing sector by trying multiple reads to see if it can get lucky, then that makes it a better drive. The fact raid systems have a time limit on a drive responding makes the above behaviour undesirable when using it in a raid. So the two uses have mutually exclusive needs. To some extent I think WD sells raid edition drives for more money than non raid drives just to make sure consumers don't buy them thinking "raid drives must be better or faster so I will use that" and end up with a much less reliable drive in their single drive system. People that need them will know what they need and get the right one. Now I would prefer the old method where a software tool or a jumper could change the behaviour, but unfortunately we don't get that option anymore. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 22:52:42 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:52:42 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question Message-ID: > No I don't consider that a scam. Most consumers don't use raid, so if > the drive can recover from a failing sector by trying multiple reads to > see if it can get lucky, then that makes it a better drive. > > The fact raid systems have a time limit on a drive responding makes the > above behaviour undesirable when using it in a raid. > > So the two uses have mutually exclusive needs. Hmm, good explaination. I was not aware about this stuff. In short, they sell the less intelligent drive more expensive to discourage consumers from buying them. One follow up question, does this too apply to linux software RAID? I mean, would software RAID eject a drive for taking too long to respond? > > To some extent I think WD sells raid edition drives for more money than > non raid drives just to make sure consumers don't buy them thinking > "raid drives must be better or faster so I will use that" and end up > with a much less reliable drive in their single drive system. People that > need them will know what they need and get the right one. Now I would > prefer the old method where a software tool or a jumper could change > the behaviour, but unfortunately we don't get that option anymore. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 4 23:26:55 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:26:55 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111004232655.GP15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 06:52:42PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > Hmm, good explaination. I was not aware about this stuff. In short, they > sell the less intelligent drive more expensive to discourage consumers from > buying them. Well that's my guess on the reason for the price difference. I really don't get the impression that the hardware is different in any way. Of course non raid drives ship in vastly larger quantities too. So the economies of scale thing probably matters too. But if they really cared about that, they would have a jumper for it instead and let people choose to change the jumper if they know what they are doing. Of course jumpers cost money too. > One follow up question, does this too apply to linux software RAID? I mean, > would software RAID eject a drive for taking too long to respond? Yes. The idea after all is that if you have raid a bad sector is no big deal, just recognize it as bad, tell the OS "sorry I couldn't read that", and then the raid will rewrite the sector after reading it from the other disk and when it is written the drive can remap the bad sector to a spare sector. So waiting multiple minutes potentially while the drive tries to fix the problem itself through brute force and stuberness, the raid could have solved the problem in a few miliseconds. So a raid edition drive has a time limit on correction attempts, and if it can't correct the error in that amount of time it will just return "read error". To the raid controller (or software) a drive taking more than 30 seconds or so to respond to a request might be totally dead. No way to know, so to get on with life the drive is kicked out of the raid even though all it has is one bad sector. Not really worth having to do a complete resync for. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 01:03:06 2011 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:03:06 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: <20111004232655.GP15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111004232655.GP15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <90fc9b82407278fe1471dc292ce6c4b1.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> But if they really cared > about that, they would have a jumper for it instead and let people choose > to change the jumper if they know what they are doing. Of course jumpers > cost money too. About $0.01 in quantity, including the jumper and header. I suspect the real cost is explaining to people how to set the jumpers properly, ie, customer support. I'm in favour of getting rid of hardware jumpers, but there should be a software controlled switch in its place. So the support cost plus the opportunity to charge more for essentially the same product may be driving this. (This business model is very common in the audio world.) -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 16:23:32 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 12:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: <20111004214233.GO15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111004214233.GO15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:26:28PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > Note that most current consumer hard drives are not suitable for RAID. | > The can take a large amount of time doing internal error recover, | > enough that the RAID system decides the whole drive is dead. That is | > a practical disaster because rebuilding an array on a 2TB disk takes a | > large portion of a day. See for example: | > | > This is a scam as far as I'm concerned. Perpetrated by the last two | > surviving drive manufacturers. | | No I don't consider that a scam. "Scam" is a subjective term. So let me explain how I see this. They are using market segmentation to make more money. That's fair. But as a techie, I like to think of commodity products being sold at close to cost, not value. The value of a RAID-capable disk is higher than the value of one that is not RAID-capable. The cost of providing it is essentially identical (or actually lower). The sign of a monopoly market is a vendor able to capture the value of a product to the customer, not just its cost of production. Market segmentation is one tool used by vendors to accomplish this more effectively. >From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_segmentation The term is also used when consumers with identical product and/or service needs are divided up into groups so they can be charged different amounts for the services. The cost of having a TLER option in the firmware is essentially $0. The cost of having different firmware for identical devices, including service cost is more than $0 (perhaps not a lot). Eliminating this option segments the market. | Most consumers don't use raid, so if | the drive can recover from a failing sector by trying multiple reads to | see if it can get lucky, then that makes it a better drive. I use the same drives in different contexts during my ownership. I'd sure like to be able to use a drive for RAID or not whenever I chose to do so. WD used to allow this, but no longer. Hitachi and Samsung still allow this (but are going to disappear). Seagate does not allow this now but may have done so in the past. I'm particularly annoyed at Seagate since they advertised my drive (a 7200.11 series) as suitable for "desktop RAID" but provided no way of bounding the error recovery time. When pressed by any particular user encountering problems, if they cose to reply at all, they claimed any particular configuration was not desktop RAID. Notice this 327-message thread that I started: This is on top of the 7200.11 BSY firmware bug which was handled very very badly. | The fact raid systems have a time limit on a drive responding makes the | above behaviour undesirable when using it in a raid. | | So the two uses have mutually exclusive needs. Right, but it is only a tiny aspect of behaviour, quite within the realm of tweaking. | To some extent I think WD sells raid edition drives for more money than | non raid drives just to make sure consumers don't buy them thinking | "raid drives must be better or faster so I will use that" and end up | with a much less reliable drive in their single drive system. No, they do it to make more money. The fact that they can get away with this clearly demonstrates that the market isn't free. Only a monopoly/oligopoly can get away with market segmentation like this. Consider, for another example, how CPU virtualization technology was in essentially all AMD chips but only some Intel chips. My analysis: - Intel felt it could force users requiring virtualization to pay more (because they dominated the market). A sale of a cheap chip, if it had supported virtualization, could be cannibalizing a sale of a more expensive chip - AMD was happy to sell any chips they could. A cheap chip with virtualization might be displacing an Intel chip. (So even my cheap-as-dirt AMD-based netbook supports virtualization but Intel netbooks and most Intel notebooks don't.) Ordinary customers might well want virtualization. If I remember/understand correctly, Win7 supports backwards compatibility using virtualization. | People that | need them will know what they need and get the right one. Now I would | prefer the old method where a software tool or a jumper could change | the behaviour, but unfortunately we don't get that option anymore. If that were the case, why would Seagate advertise the 7200.11 as suitable for "desktop RAID"? With the 7200.12, they don't mention "desktop RAID" but they do suggest, without reservations or qualifications: PERFECT WHEN YOU NEED TO: Build robust workstations Equip home servers Create PC-based gaming systems Implement a desktop RAID Outfit direct attached external storage devices (DAS) Build network attached storage devices (NAS) No, they are certainly not in it to give a clear understanding of this issue to the rubes. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 17:57:06 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 13:57:06 -0400 Subject: Stupid RAID question In-Reply-To: References: <20111004214233.GO15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111005175706.GQ15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 12:23:32PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > "Scam" is a subjective term. So let me explain how I see this. > > They are using market segmentation to make more money. That's fair. > But as a techie, I like to think of commodity products being sold at > close to cost, not value. The value of a RAID-capable disk is higher > than the value of one that is not RAID-capable. The cost of providing > it is essentially identical (or actually lower). It certainly does not cost _less_. It may not cost more to produce either, except that the runs with the raid edition firmware is likely smaller, shipments to stores are likely in smaller portions, etc. Now if they just made it a user option like it used to be, then it would in fact cost them nothing more or less. > The sign of a monopoly market is a vendor able to capture the value of a > product to the customer, not just its cost of production. Market > segmentation is one tool used by vendors to accomplish this more > effectively. Well nvidia sells quadro cards which are the same GPUs as a geforce card, except they turn off a couple of features on the geforce line and use much better tested drivers for the quadro cards. And then they charge 5 to 10 times as much for the quadro card. > From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_segmentation > > The term is also used when consumers with identical product and/or > service needs are divided up into groups so they can be charged > different amounts for the services. > > The cost of having a TLER option in the firmware is essentially $0. > The cost of having different firmware for identical devices, including > service cost is more than $0 (perhaps not a lot). Eliminating this > option segments the market. > > I use the same drives in different contexts during my ownership. I'd > sure like to be able to use a drive for RAID or not whenever I chose > to do so. The vast majority of people won't. I would. Well actually I think all my disks would be in raid unless in a USB enclosure. > WD used to allow this, but no longer. Hitachi and Samsung still allow > this (but are going to disappear). Seagate does not allow this now > but may have done so in the past. Yeah it is annoying. > I'm particularly annoyed at Seagate since they advertised my drive (a > 7200.11 series) as suitable for "desktop RAID" but provided no way of > bounding the error recovery time. When pressed by any particular user > encountering problems, if they cose to reply at all, they claimed any > particular configuration was not desktop RAID. Notice this > 327-message thread that I started: > > > This is on top of the 7200.11 BSY firmware bug which was handled very very > badly. Seagate seems to keep screwing up firmware on SATA drives in annoying ways. They have been off my list of acceptable drives for years. > Right, but it is only a tiny aspect of behaviour, quite within the > realm of tweaking. Certainly, and it used to be tweakable on a number of drives. > No, they do it to make more money. > > The fact that they can get away with this clearly demonstrates that > the market isn't free. Only a monopoly/oligopoly can get away with > market segmentation like this. Well harddisks are amazingly cheap these days. If they can find a way to make more money in that market, well good for them. I doubt the raid market is large enough for anyone to be super excited to jump in and compete with them. > Consider, for another example, how CPU virtualization technology was in essentially > all AMD chips but only some Intel chips. My analysis: > > - Intel felt it could force users requiring virtualization to pay more > (because they dominated the market). A sale of a cheap chip, if it > had supported virtualization, could be cannibalizing a sale of a > more expensive chip Sure. Intel's tweaking of features in different chips of the same line is making things very confusing for consumers. > - AMD was happy to sell any chips they could. A cheap chip with > virtualization might be displacing an Intel chip. Yes, much simpler with AMD. > (So even my cheap-as-dirt AMD-based netbook supports virtualization > but Intel netbooks and most Intel notebooks don't.) > > Ordinary customers might well want virtualization. If I > remember/understand correctly, Win7 supports backwards compatibility > using virtualization. Yes, initially windows 7 required it, but then they did an update that permits it to do it (slightly less efficiently) without the hardware support. > | People that > | need them will know what they need and get the right one. Now I would > | prefer the old method where a software tool or a jumper could change > | the behaviour, but unfortunately we don't get that option anymore. > > If that were the case, why would Seagate advertise the 7200.11 as > suitable for "desktop RAID"? > > > With the 7200.12, they don't mention "desktop RAID" but they do > suggest, without reservations or qualifications: > > PERFECT WHEN YOU NEED TO: > > Build robust workstations > Equip home servers > Create PC-based gaming systems > Implement a desktop RAID > Outfit direct attached external storage devices (DAS) > Build network attached storage devices (NAS) > > No, they are certainly not in it to give a clear understanding of this > issue to the rubes. So they advertise it as such, except when people actually do it, it doesn't work. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 18:35:29 2011 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:35:29 -0400 Subject: anyone with Arduino expertise? Message-ID: <201110051435.31620.icanprogram@295.ca> I'm looking to partner with someone who has Arduino expertise on an Elance.com job bid. If this interests you contact me offlist and we can discuss. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 5 19:27:16 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 12:27:16 -0700 Subject: anyone with Arduino expertise? In-Reply-To: <201110051435.31620.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201110051435.31620.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: Drop Brent Marshall - @eightlines on Twitter - a note. Stewart On 10/5/11, bob 295 wrote: > I'm looking to partner with someone who has Arduino expertise on an > Elance.com > job bid. If this interests you contact me offlist and we can discuss. > > bob > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 00:26:25 2011 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:26:25 -0400 Subject: R.I.P Steve Jobs Message-ID: Steve Jobs has died at the age of 56 http://www.apple.com/stevejobs/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 03:11:07 2011 From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:11:07 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem Message-ID: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> Hi , wondering if anyone has any suggestions for me. My laptop battery suddenly died. It wasn't slow and graceful. I'm wondering if there are fuses in them typically. It is a relatively new ASUS laptop but beyond the warranty. Since there is absolutely no life in it, I suspect it is a fuse . Perhaps it isn't the battery but is internal to the computer as well. I tried to measure the battery voltage with a meter but may not have been able to make contact with the proper terminals. What ever happened to the good ol days when batteries only had two terminals. There must be 8 or 9 hard to access pins on this battery. Wondering if anyone has any words of wisdom on this. Do I just buy a new battery and take a chance or is it worth cracking this one open to look for a fuse? Thanks, Jim -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 04:02:07 2011 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 00:02:07 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:11 PM, jim wrote: > Hi , wondering if anyone has any suggestions for me. My laptop battery > suddenly died. It wasn't slow and graceful. I'm wondering if there are > fuses in them typically. It is a relatively new ASUS laptop but beyond > the warranty. Since there is absolutely no life in it, I suspect it is a Apparently if you drain the newer Lithium-ion to zero they simply die and can't even be re-charged. This happened to me with a relatively new external (and quite expensive) APC battery. The guys at APC said it was because I left it uncharged for a few hours and it was exactly what happened! I drained it whilst working on a plane and forgot to charge it that night. Next day: dead. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 13:52:46 2011 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:52:46 -0400 Subject: Network Interfaces - description and groups tags Message-ID: Good Morning, Does linux have the ability to provide a 'description' and 'groups' set of labels to it's network interfaces? The reason I ask is that I have them on our BSD machines: bge0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 lladdr blah description: External groups: egress media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT full-duplex) status: active inet blah.blah.blah.blah netmask 0xffffffe0 broadcast blahblah inet6 blah bge0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1 bge1: flags=8943 mtu 1500 lladdr blah description: Internal media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT full-duplex) status: active inet 10.0.0.1 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 10.0.0.255 inet6 blah bge1 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x2 Thank you! John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 14:05:00 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 10:05:00 -0400 Subject: Remember to vote! Message-ID: <4E8DB58C.8070109@alteeve.com> Happy 'Go Vote' day! -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "At what point did we forget that the Space Shuttle was, essentially, a program that strapped human beings to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 14:07:26 2011 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 10:07:26 -0400 Subject: Remember to vote! In-Reply-To: <4E8DB58C.8070109-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8DB58C.8070109@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On October 6, 2011 10:05:00 you wrote: > Happy 'Go Vote' day! > > Two words: Advance Polls. I voted two weeks ago. That means I can relax and enjoy three games of youth hockey tonight. -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 14:08:28 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 10:08:28 -0400 Subject: Remember to vote! In-Reply-To: References: <4E8DB58C.8070109@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4E8DB65C.5010907@alteeve.com> On 10/06/2011 10:07 AM, Gary Layng wrote: > On October 6, 2011 10:05:00 you wrote: >> Happy 'Go Vote' day! >> >> > Two words: Advance Polls. I voted two weeks ago. > > That means I can relax and enjoy three games of youth hockey tonight. Voting early, voting today - it's all good, just vote. :) -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "At what point did we forget that the Space Shuttle was, essentially, a program that strapped human beings to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 14:17:40 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 10:17:40 -0400 Subject: Remember to vote! In-Reply-To: <4E8DB65C.5010907-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8DB58C.8070109@alteeve.com> <4E8DB65C.5010907@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4E8DB884.30900@rogers.com> Digimer wrote: > Voting early, voting today - it's all good, just vote Vote early, vote often. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 14:48:21 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 10:48:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: <20111006144821.GR15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:02:07AM -0400, Alejandro Imass wrote: > Apparently if you drain the newer Lithium-ion to zero they simply die > and can't even be re-charged. This happened to me with a relatively > new external (and quite expensive) APC battery. The guys at APC said > it was because I left it uncharged for a few hours and it was exactly > what happened! I drained it whilst working on a plane and forgot to > charge it that night. Next day: dead. What kind of APC battery? APC UPS batteries are lead acid and certainly don't have any such issue. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From iconnor-8+tXeFxsjZXBNxJ6UmF5jlaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 14:51:58 2011 From: iconnor-8+tXeFxsjZXBNxJ6UmF5jlaTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Isaac Connor) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 10:51:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: <20111006144821.GR15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> <20111006144821.GR15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4E8DC08E.40009@connortechnology.com> On 11-10-06 10:48 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:02:07AM -0400, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> Apparently if you drain the newer Lithium-ion to zero they simply die >> and can't even be re-charged. This happened to me with a relatively >> new external (and quite expensive) APC battery. The guys at APC said >> it was because I left it uncharged for a few hours and it was exactly >> what happened! I drained it whilst working on a plane and forgot to >> charge it that night. Next day: dead. > What kind of APC battery? > > APC UPS batteries are lead acid and certainly don't have any such issue. > I have seen UPS's that if drained and left will no longer power on. Trickle Charging the batteries for a minute and then re-installing in the UPS will revive the UPS. I have only seen this on cheap ULTRA (Powercom) UPS's. Never an APC. It's as if the charging circuitry needs some small amount of juice from the battery to engage. Weird, but I've had it happen 3 or 4 times now. This of course has nothing to do with Lithium-ion batteries in laptops. Sounds like a bad battery to me. Isaac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 15:05:43 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 11:05:43 -0400 Subject: Remember to vote! In-Reply-To: References: <4E8DB58C.8070109@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Gary Layng wrote: > On October 6, 2011 10:05:00 you wrote: >> Happy 'Go Vote' day! >> >> > Two words: ?Advance Polls. ?I voted two weeks ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_early_and_vote_often -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 15:08:06 2011 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 11:08:06 -0400 Subject: Remember to vote! In-Reply-To: References: <4E8DB58C.8070109@alteeve.com> Message-ID: Vote for me. Thanks. Renata Rocha http://renata.org On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:05, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Gary Layng wrote: >> On October 6, 2011 10:05:00 you wrote: >>> Happy 'Go Vote' day! >>> >>> >> Two words: ?Advance Polls. ?I voted two weeks ago. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_early_and_vote_often > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 15:22:58 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 11:22:58 -0400 Subject: Network Interfaces - description and groups tags In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 9:52 AM, John Miles wrote: > Good Morning, > > Does linux have the ability to provide a 'description' and 'groups' set of > labels to it's network interfaces? > > The reason I ask is that I have them on our BSD machines: > > > bge0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 > ??????? lladdr blah > ??????? description: External > ??????? groups: egress > ??????? media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT full-duplex) > ??????? status: active > ??????? inet blah.blah.blah.blah netmask 0xffffffe0 broadcast blahblah > ??????? inet6 blah bge0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1 > bge1: flags=8943 mtu 1500 > ??????? lladdr blah > ??????? description: Internal > ??????? media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT full-duplex) > ??????? status: active > ??????? inet 10.0.0.1 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 10.0.0.255 > ??????? inet6 blah bge1 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x2 It appears so, in iproute2, which is apparently the not-deprecated followup to ifconfig. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iproute2 http://www.policyrouting.org/iproute2.doc.html#ss9.2.1 In particular, see: label NAME --- Each address may be tagged with a label string. In order to preserve compatibility with Linux-2.0 net aliases, this string must coincide with the name of the device or must be prefixed with device name followed by a colon. (eth0:duh) This is interesting; I was not aware that net-tools was being deprecated in favor of iproute2. The legacy stuff is definitely filled with odd little non-intuitive special cases that people are expected to remember. If anyone has a good understanding of iproute2, that's the sort of thing that might be worth a talk... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 15:29:42 2011 From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 11:29:42 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: <4E8DC08E.40009-8+tXeFxsjZXBNxJ6UmF5jlaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> <20111006144821.GR15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E8DC08E.40009@connortechnology.com> Message-ID: <1317914982.2023.4.camel@jimslaptop> > I have seen UPS's that if drained and left will no longer power on. > Trickle Charging the batteries for a minute and then re-installing in > the UPS will revive the UPS. I have only seen this on cheap ULTRA > (Powercom) UPS's. Never an APC. > > It's as if the charging circuitry needs some small amount of juice from > the battery to engage. Weird, but I've had it happen 3 or 4 times now. > > This of course has nothing to do with Lithium-ion batteries in laptops. > Sounds like a bad battery to me. Would anyone have a recommendation for where to buy laptop replacement batteries in TO. Thanks, Jim -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 15:32:11 2011 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 11:32:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: <1317914982.2023.4.camel@jimslaptop> References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> <20111006144821.GR15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E8DC08E.40009@connortechnology.com> <1317914982.2023.4.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: <4E8DC9FB.1050407@rogers.com> On 11-10-06 11:29 AM, jim wrote: > > >> I have seen UPS's that if drained and left will no longer power on. >> Trickle Charging the batteries for a minute and then re-installing in >> the UPS will revive the UPS. I have only seen this on cheap ULTRA >> (Powercom) UPS's. Never an APC. >> >> It's as if the charging circuitry needs some small amount of juice from >> the battery to engage. Weird, but I've had it happen 3 or 4 times now. >> >> This of course has nothing to do with Lithium-ion batteries in laptops. >> Sounds like a bad battery to me. > Would anyone have a recommendation for where to buy laptop replacement > batteries in TO. > Thanks, > Jim > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > I recommend http://laptopcentre.ca/index.php These guys know their stuff and don't have the box store overhead. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 16:15:06 2011 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:15:06 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: <20111006144821.GR15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> <20111006144821.GR15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:02:07AM -0400, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> Apparently if you drain the newer Lithium-ion to zero they simply die >> and can't even be re-charged. This happened to me with a relatively >> new external (and quite expensive) APC battery. The guys at APC said >> it was because I left it uncharged for a few hours and it was exactly >> what happened! I drained it whilst working on a plane and forgot to >> charge it that night. Next day: dead. > > What kind of APC battery? > > APC UPS batteries are lead acid and certainly don't have any such issue. > Universal external Laptop battery, it comes for adapters for most (if not all) laptops and uses Li-Ion batteries. It originally cost like $250 in a Brookstone though I later saw it for like $200 at Best Buy. Mine was just like this one: http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=upb80i I worked great for a few months until I let it discharge completely and failed to charge it within a "reasonable" time-frame. The APC folks said that whilst you can fully drain the battery and that's fine (though not recommended), the problem arises when it's not charged almost immediately after drained. For example if you drain the battery and don't charge it after a day or two. They also noted that this was a problem in all Li-Ion batteries, not just this one. With Ni-Cad batteries it was the other way around because they had a memory effect and actually needed to be fully drained before charging. With Li-Ion it seems that fully draining the battery and leaving it like that for a few hours simply damages the battery and it cannot be undone. -- Alejandro Imass > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 16:16:30 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:16:30 -0400 Subject: Network Interfaces - description and groups tags In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111006161630.GS15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:22:58AM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > It appears so, in iproute2, which is apparently the not-deprecated > followup to ifconfig. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iproute2 > http://www.policyrouting.org/iproute2.doc.html#ss9.2.1 > > In particular, see: > > label NAME --- Each address may be tagged with a label string. > In order to preserve compatibility with Linux-2.0 net aliases, this > string must coincide with the name of the device or must be prefixed > with device name followed by a colon. (eth0:duh) > > This is interesting; I was not aware that net-tools was being > deprecated in favor of iproute2. > > The legacy stuff is definitely filled with odd little non-intuitive > special cases that people are expected to remember. > > If anyone has a good understanding of iproute2, that's the sort of > thing that might be worth a talk... I don't think the address label is the same as an interface description. I thought I saw a field in the interface struct for a description in the past, but I can't find it now. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 19:23:28 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:23:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: | From: Alejandro Imass | On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:11 PM, jim wrote: | > Hi , wondering if anyone has any suggestions for me. My laptop battery | > suddenly died. It wasn't slow and graceful. I'm wondering if there are | > fuses in them typically. LiOIN batteries are fairly high-tech. Charging them isn't simple -- I think it is under computer control, but I'm not sure where the computer is. It might be the BIOS of the laptop, it might be an embedded processor in the laptop or battery. If you do certain funny things to a LiON batter, it can burn or explode. Not something I'd play with. | Apparently if you drain the newer Lithium-ion to zero they simply die | and can't even be re-charged. This happened to me with a relatively | new external (and quite expensive) APC battery. The guys at APC said | it was because I left it uncharged for a few hours and it was exactly | what happened! I drained it whilst working on a plane and forgot to | charge it that night. Next day: dead. That may be the case. But it it isn't clearly laid out in the product manual, it should be counted as a manufacturing defect. There is no way that the customer should be required to guess that there is this kind of quirk -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 19:26:45 2011 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:26:45 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 3:23 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > LiOIN batteries are fairly high-tech. Charging them isn't simple -- I > think it is under computer control, but I'm not sure where the > computer is. It might be the BIOS of the laptop, it might be an > embedded processor in the laptop or battery. > > If you do certain funny things to a LiON batter, it can burn or > explode. Not something I'd play with. > At least some batteries have on-board controllers, which have been hacked: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/apple_battery/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 21:47:48 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 17:47:48 -0400 Subject: TCP IP Offloading Message-ID: Hi, I came across this today the first time, as we had an application that needed TSO disabled and wanted to know if there is side effects of disabling it. It appear that there is a lot of people and research that imply that TSE is a bad solution and if you read the PDF, it looks like they have a point. http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/linux/linux-kernel/2003-28/0029.html This article below imply that TSO could help with CPU usage, apparently activating it drop the CPU usage from 40% to 19% http://lwn.net/Articles/9123/ Now the question is, is there an way network traffic can take 40% of today's CPU cycles? Most of the articles that were discussing it are a bit dated? It looks like modern Linux have partially enabled TSE, would it be correct to assume all NIC cards out there support TSE? [root at william ~]# ethtool --show-offload eth0 Offload parameters for eth0: rx-checksumming: on tx-checksumming: on scatter-gather: on tcp-segmentation-offload: on udp-fragmentation-offload: off generic-segmentation-offload: off generic-receive-offload: off large-receive-offload: off Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 6 21:17:42 2011 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 17:17:42 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem Message-ID: Isaac Connor wrote: >On 11-10-06 10:48 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:02:07AM -0400, Alejandro Imass wrote: >>> Apparently if you drain the newer Lithium-ion to zero they simply die >>> and can't even be re-charged. This happened to me with a relatively >>> new external (and quite expensive) APC battery. The guys at APC said >>> it was because I left it uncharged for a few hours and it was exactly >>> what happened! I drained it whilst working on a plane and forgot to >>> charge it that night. Next day: dead. >> What kind of APC battery? >> >> APC UPS batteries are lead acid and certainly don't have any such issue. >> >I have seen UPS's that if drained and left will no longer power on. >Trickle Charging the batteries for a minute and then re-installing in >the UPS will revive the UPS. I have only seen this on cheap ULTRA >(Powercom) UPS's. Never an APC. > >It's as if the charging circuitry needs some small amount of juice from >the battery to engage. Weird, but I've had it happen 3 or 4 times now. > >This of course has nothing to do with Lithium-ion batteries in laptops. >Sounds like a bad battery to me. > >Isaac >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 15:26:58 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:26:58 -0400 Subject: TCP IP Offloading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111007152658.GT15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 05:47:48PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > I came across this today the first time, as we had an application that > needed TSO disabled and wanted to know if there is side effects of > disabling it. It appear that there is a lot of people and research > that imply that TSE is a bad solution and if you read the PDF, it > looks like they have a point. > > http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/linux/linux-kernel/2003-28/0029.html > > This article below imply that TSO could help with CPU usage, > apparently activating it drop the CPU usage from 40% to 19% > > http://lwn.net/Articles/9123/ > > Now the question is, is there an way network traffic can take 40% of > today's CPU cycles? Most of the articles that were discussing it are > a bit dated? Sure. Try 64 byte packets are wire speed on a 10Gbit port. On the other hand a high end quad core i7 with large packets has been shown to be able to route around 70Gbit per second using multiple high end dual port intel PCIe > It looks like modern Linux have partially enabled TSE, would it be > correct to assume all NIC cards out there support TSE? TSO or TSE? Now can we please get the acronym soup straightened out? TSE = No idea TSO = TCP Segmentation Offload (Considered useful for servers handling large chunks of data on tcp sockets) TOE = TCP Offload Engine (Considered a bad idea and not supported in linux) LRO = Large Receive Offload (Done in software (NAPI) in linux. Some BSDs support it in hardware on some cards). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 16:41:59 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 12:41:59 -0400 Subject: TCP IP Offloading In-Reply-To: <20111007152658.GT15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111007152658.GT15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Len > >> It looks like modern Linux have partially enabled TSE, would it be >> correct to assume all NIC cards out there support TSE? > > TSO or TSE? Hmm, I was drunk I think, my bad. Have no idea where TSE came from, I meant TSO I believe That being said, TSE could mean "TCP segmentation Enable " See www.cs.usfca.edu/~cruse/cs686s08/lesson22.ppt > > Now can we please get the acronym soup straightened out? > > TSE = No idea > TSO = TCP Segmentation Offload (Considered useful for servers handling > ? ? ?large chunks of data on tcp sockets) > TOE = TCP Offload Engine (Considered a bad idea and not supported in linux) > LRO = Large Receive Offload (Done in software (NAPI) in linux. ?Some BSDs > ? ? ?support it in hardware on some cards). I see. I was under impression TSO and TOE are the same thing. I was therefore nervous that enabling TSO would have triggered the problems discussed on the kernel mailing list Actually, it would not have been fun moving to IPv6 if TOE had taken off as I believe that would have meant replacing the NIC cards, Thanks a lot Len > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 16:44:04 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 12:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today: cheap 16 port gig switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | At $79.97 + $8.17 shipping, this seems like a good sale. | | Not available in the B&M stores. | The sale ends today. I've ordered one. A Dell deal-of-the-day caught my eye. Looks better than the TigerDirect deal. Dell is selling TRENDnet's TEG-S224 "26-port 10/100/1000 MBps Gigabit Ethernet Switch" for $59.99 today! Sounds good, but... Reading the fine print, only 2 of the ports are gig! This sure seems like a misleading headline. (Last week Dell offered a portable hard drive with a headline saying USB 3.0 but the fine print showed it was only USB 2.0. So it happens. Make sure to read details when buying.) (UPS says that the 16 port switch I bought from Tiger Direct has been delivered to someone in Illinois?!?!) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 17:42:41 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 13:42:41 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone Message-ID: Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to learn to choose his battles. http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 17:50:02 2011 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 13:50:02 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111007175001.GA3202@pogoplugpink.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> It's bad taste. But one can't imagine Stallman from doing anything different. And there is a certain degree of bad boy-ness to it. Like Steve Jobs. On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 01:42:41PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to > learn to choose his battles. > > http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) > > -- > Thomas Milne > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:01:24 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 14:01:24 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F3E74.80803@alteeve.com> On 10/07/2011 01:42 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to > learn to choose his battles. > > http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) He is a zealot, no different from religious counterparts like the Pope or Dawkins. So completely convinced at their moral high-ground, they feel free to spew garbage from their lips with impunity. -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "At what point did we forget that the Space Shuttle was, essentially, a program that strapped human beings to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:04:42 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:04:42 -0400 Subject: TCP IP Offloading In-Reply-To: References: <20111007152658.GT15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111007180442.GU15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 12:41:59PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > Hmm, I was drunk I think, my bad. Have no idea where TSE came from, I > meant TSO I believe > > That being said, TSE could mean "TCP segmentation Enable " > > See > > www.cs.usfca.edu/~cruse/cs686s08/lesson22.ppt > > I see. I was under impression TSO and TOE are the same thing. I was > therefore nervous that enabling TSO would have triggered the problems > discussed on the kernel mailing list > > Actually, it would not have been fun moving to IPv6 if TOE had taken > off as I believe that would have meant replacing the NIC cards, My understanding is that TSO means the kernel can take a chunk of 50KB data, and tell the network card "Take this data, spit out frames of 1500 bytes, with this header, starting at this sequence number. Go!". TOE means having an entire TCP/IP stack in the network card and having issues with keeping it in sync with the kernels network stack. This tends to mean QoS, traffic shaping, packet filtering, etc all stop working. And yes if there is a bug in the network stack in the card, you can't easily fix it. That is why the linux kernel won't support TOE. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:11:01 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:11:01 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 01:42:41PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to > learn to choose his battles. > > http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) Stallman is quite the nut job. Unfortunately I think I actually agree with him for once. Eek. Not a very nice way to say it though. I do actually have a vague hope Apple just might become a nicer company now, but I am not very optimistic. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:18:40 2011 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 14:18:40 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: <20111007181101.GV15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4E8F4280.8070300@gmail.com> On 10/07/2011 02:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 01:42:41PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to >> learn to choose his battles. >> >> http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) > Stallman is quite the nut job. > > Unfortunately I think I actually agree with him for once. Eek. Not a > very nice way to say it though. > > I do actually have a vague hope Apple just might become a nicer company > now, but I am not very optimistic. > As much as Jobs was a fairly big freedom hater, Apple may get even worst without him, because they are probably facing desperate times ahead, with competition (fair competition), and my guess is they will become strictly a "levy lawsuits" company, and try to milk what they have for as long as they can before hanging it up. I am probably different then most people on sizing up Jobs legacy, to me, its 99.9999% apple I apple ][, Lisa, and Mac (so basically work until 1986 or so), and .000001% since then. Most people (typical consumer) it is probably the opposite, and the ipad, iphone and ipad are where they give Jobs the nod, which I think is very very flawed. -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ushnish.sengupta-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:30:24 2011 From: ushnish.sengupta-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ushnish Sengupta) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:30:24 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: <20111007181101.GV15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On CBC Metro Morning, the tech columnist Jesse Hirsh was fairly critical of how Apple under Steve Jobs was very "closed" e.g. not supportive of open source software or hardware. It was an appropriate critique as it was in the context of a holistic and mostly positive review of Steve Jobs legacy. The main comment that sticks in my mind was: Steve Jobs used the closedness of Apple in a relatively benign way. The next person with that level of power may not be so benign. The podcast is available at: http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/includes/metromorning.xml Ushnish On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 01:42:41PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > > Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to > > learn to choose his battles. > > > > > http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) > > Stallman is quite the nut job. > > Unfortunately I think I actually agree with him for once. Eek. Not a > very nice way to say it though. > > I do actually have a vague hope Apple just might become a nicer company > now, but I am not very optimistic. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:31:34 2011 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:31:34 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: <20111007181101.GV15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 01:42:41PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to >> learn to choose his battles. >> >> http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) > > Stallman is quite the nut job. > > Unfortunately I think I actually agree with him for once. ?Eek. ?Not a > very nice way to say it though. > > I do actually have a vague hope Apple just might become a nicer company > now, but I am not very optimistic. > It's nicer than many others. Their technology is sound and they use a lot of Open Source. MacOSX is practically based on FreeBSD and you can run most of FBSD's ports on the Mac using MacPorts. We interchangeably use Debian and Ubuntu Workstations with Mac workstations and FreeBSD servers. I think each one has it's strengths and weaknesses, What we don't use _at all_ is crapy Microsoft software or any Oracle products either. I personally see Apple as Open Source friendly and their products are really high quality. Don't get me wrong though we love Linux and we also love cheap hardware, but we also love Apple. Besides, I don't know what rms is complaining so much about Steve Jobs. For example he opened Next Step with Sun and created Open Step from which GNU Step directly derives. I remember using GNU Step with Linux when Gnome and KDE where in their infancy, and where do you think many ideas for the latter came from? All the zealotry is really stupid. Maybe we should we stop using TCP/IP or the Internet because it was built by and for the military? > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:35:08 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:35:08 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: <4E8F4280.8070300-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E8F4280.8070300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111007183508.GW15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 02:18:40PM -0400, Ted wrote: > As much as Jobs was a fairly big freedom hater, Apple may get even > worst without him, because they are probably facing desperate > times ahead, with competition (fair competition), and my guess is > they will become strictly a "levy lawsuits" company, and try to > milk > what they have for as long as they can before hanging it up. They have been suing people for years. But yeah they aren't likely to get better. After all look how successful the strategy has been as far as "shareholder value" is concerned. > I am probably different then most people on sizing up Jobs legacy, > to me, its 99.9999% apple I apple ][, Lisa, and Mac (so basically > work until 1986 or so), > and .000001% since then. Most people (typical consumer) it is > probably the opposite, and the ipad, iphone and ipad are where they > give Jobs the nod, > which I think is very very flawed. As far as being a great CEO, Steve Jobs has been amazing. He has raised share prices by unbelievable amounts in the time he has been in charge. I just happen to hate the methods by which he accomplished his success. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:43:30 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:43:30 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111007184330.GA1291@watson-wilson.ca> Ironically, AFAIK, the Iphone is the only phone that whose address book can come from any LDAP compatible source. Similarly the Iphone is also the only phone that natively supports any CalDAV service you care to use. I don't think that Apple is any more or less closed than most other corporations, save perhaps Red Hat. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:43:38 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:43:38 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111007184338.GX15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 02:31:34PM -0400, Alejandro Imass wrote: > It's nicer than many others. Their technology is sound and they use a > lot of Open Source. MacOSX is practically based on FreeBSD and you can > run most of FBSD's ports on the Mac using MacPorts. We interchangeably > use Debian and Ubuntu Workstations with Mac workstations and FreeBSD > servers. I think each one has it's strengths and weaknesses, Yes, but the big part of Apple these days is the iphone, ipad and ipod devices. The Mac bit is largely irrelevant. And with the App store for Macs now around and some of the changes that are going into Mac OS X, it appears that the Mac as a desktop machine may actually be heading towards the level of control of the iphone and ipad. Maybe not entirely, but they sure seem to be considering it. > What we don't use _at all_ is crapy Microsoft software or any Oracle > products either. What does that have to do with Apple and their stupid policies? I despise both of those too, but for different reasons. > I personally see Apple as Open Source friendly and their products are > really high quality. Don't get me wrong though we love Linux and we > also love cheap hardware, but we also love Apple. Nothing open source is permitted on any iOS device. It all must go through the app store and the app store does not permit source code to be included. > Besides, I don't know what rms is complaining so much about Steve > Jobs. For example he opened Next Step with Sun and created Open Step > from which GNU Step directly derives. I remember using GNU Step with > Linux when Gnome and KDE where in their infancy, and where do you > think many ideas for the latter came from? Xerox PARC. And according to a friend of Steve Jobs interviewed on CBC Jobs was not at all interested in having next step be part of an open unix future. He hated the idea of anything open. Jobs loved being in control. > All the zealotry is really stupid. Maybe we should we stop using > TCP/IP or the Internet because it was built by and for the military? I think Apple's technology is great. I hate their restrictions on how it can be used. So in fact this is the exact opposit of that. If everything to go on the Internet had to first be approved by the military, the Internet would not be something we would want to use. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:45:21 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:45:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Thomas Milne | Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to | learn to choose his battles. | | http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) Stallman did say that he wasn't glad he was dead, just glad he was gone. GOING SERIOUSLY OFF TOPIC: BTW, I had never seen his blog and didn't realize all the other issues he speaks about. 06 October 2011 (Protesters Arrested) 100 protesters against the planet-burning Keystone tar sand oil pipeline were arrested in Toronto. This article omits the reason why this pipeline must be stopped: because extracting and burning that oil will commit Earth to an amount of warming that is catastrophic. I hadn't actually heard this elsewhere (probably my fault). "planet-burning" is an odd metaphor. What do we burn that isn't part of our planet? I don't know all the details, but my best guess is that - we (humanity) will burn all we can get our hands on, sooner or later. So the tar sands* will be exploited. - the pipeline to the gulf coast is "needed" because it is expensive to build heavy oil upgraders and they already exist in that area to handle Venezuelan (and Trinidadian?) heavy crude which is in decline - without the pipline, upgraders would be built in Canada and we would capture more of the "value chain". The output could be sold anywhere, not just to the US gulf coast. - the ability to sell anywhere seems to be valuable. There are two crude oil indices: WTI (based on West Texas crude) and Brent (based on North Sea crude). WT crude is cleaner and lighter and should cost more than Brent, but Brent is currently US$23 more a barrel! Apparently that's because of lack of transportation facilities (not their cost) Conveniently, most Canadian oil sells against the WTI benchmark whereas we (in Toronto) pay for gasoline somewhat based on the Brent benchmark -- not good for us. So: building the Keystone XL pipeline is better for the US than it is for Canada. * "tar sands" is a misnomer, but I've been using that term since the mid-1960s and I'm not going to change just for politics. Technically, I think the stuff in the sand is bitumen. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:46:42 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:46:42 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: <20111007184330.GA1291-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111007184330.GA1291@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111007184642.GY15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 02:43:30PM -0400, Neil Watson wrote: > Ironically, AFAIK, the Iphone is the only phone that whose address book > can come from any LDAP compatible source. Similarly the Iphone is also > the only phone that natively supports any CalDAV service you care to > use. > > I don't think that Apple is any more or less closed than most other > corporations, save perhaps Red Hat. Anyone could write and release a program for the Palm Pilot. Anyone can do so for a Windows PC. Anyone can do so for a Linux PC, BSD, AIX, etc. Anyone can do so for Symbian based phones. Anyone can do so for java supporting phones. Only those people and applications approved by Apple can release applications for the iphone/ipad/ipod. And they can only be released through Apple, and Apple wants a 30% cut, and wants to set all the rules on what and how your application does things. Not sure about Android, but I hate that too. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:50:37 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:50:37 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111007185037.GZ15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 02:45:21PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Stallman did say that he wasn't glad he was dead, just glad he was > gone. > > GOING SERIOUSLY OFF TOPIC: > > BTW, I had never seen his blog and didn't realize all the other issues > he speaks about. > > 06 October 2011 (Protesters Arrested) > > 100 protesters against the planet-burning Keystone tar sand oil > pipeline were arrested in Toronto. > > This article omits the reason why this pipeline must be stopped: > because extracting and burning that oil will commit Earth to an amount > of warming that is catastrophic. > > I hadn't actually heard this elsewhere (probably my fault). > > "planet-burning" is an odd metaphor. What do we burn that isn't part > of our planet? > > I don't know all the details, but my best guess is that > > - we (humanity) will burn all we can get our hands on, sooner or > later. So the tar sands* will be exploited. > > - the pipeline to the gulf coast is "needed" because it is expensive > to build heavy oil upgraders and they already exist in that area to > handle Venezuelan (and Trinidadian?) heavy crude which is in decline Given the weather they have in that area, it seems like a bad place for them. > - without the pipline, upgraders would be built in Canada and we would > capture more of the "value chain". The output could be sold > anywhere, not just to the US gulf coast. > > - the ability to sell anywhere seems to be valuable. There are two > crude oil indices: WTI (based on West Texas crude) and Brent (based > on North Sea crude). WT crude is cleaner and lighter and should > cost more than Brent, but Brent is currently US$23 more a barrel! > Apparently that's because of lack of transportation facilities (not > their cost) > > Conveniently, most Canadian oil sells against the WTI benchmark > whereas we (in Toronto) pay for gasoline somewhat based on the Brent > benchmark -- not good for us. > > So: building the Keystone XL pipeline is better for the US than it is > for Canada. > > * "tar sands" is a misnomer, but I've been using that term since the > mid-1960s and I'm not going to change just for politics. Technically, > I think the stuff in the sand is bitumen. Certainly seems that if they are going to bother with it they should refine some of it closer to home and sell that instead. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:54:52 2011 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 14:54:52 -0400 Subject: Which Wiki is right for you? Message-ID: <4E8F4AFC.8030400@ss.org> I've recently been looking at setting up my own personal wiki. Part of my desires is the it be F/OSS, and backed by a Revision control system. Media Wiki is right out on the above two, and that leaves almost 200 others wiki solutions out there to choose from. But surprisingly, there is a service that helps you figure it out. O_o! http://www.wikimatrix.org/ And the have a wizard that parred down my requirements to just 15 options. Nice. http://www.wikimatrix.org/wizard.php Thought I'd share. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:56:27 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:56:27 -0400 Subject: Which Wiki is right for you? In-Reply-To: <4E8F4AFC.8030400-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8F4AFC.8030400@ss.org> Message-ID: <20111007185627.GA15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 02:54:52PM -0400, Scott Sullivan wrote: > I've recently been looking at setting up my own personal wiki. > Part of my desires is the it be F/OSS, and backed by a Revision > control system. > > Media Wiki is right out on the above two, and that leaves almost 200 > others wiki solutions out there to choose from. Why would you want it backed by revision control when part of the point of most wikis is that they have revision history in them and easily viewable. And mediawiki only fails on one as far as I can tell. > But surprisingly, there is a service that helps you figure it out. O_o! > http://www.wikimatrix.org/ > > And the have a wizard that parred down my requirements to just 15 > options. Nice. > http://www.wikimatrix.org/wizard.php > > Thought I'd share. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:58:59 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Alejandro Imass | I personally see Apple as Open Source friendly I'm lobster friendly. I'll eat them whenever they are available. Apple will use open source but isn't very good at giving back. - they like BSD licensed code because it doesn't force them to give back. The Darwin process is more open than required, but still not very good. - when they used GPLed code, they have a long term plan to migrate away. Example: migrating from GCC. Example: migrating from Samba Domain Server stuff (I don't know enough about this to even get the description right). - the only reason that their Objective C front-end to GCC was released was because Stallman or his proxies forced them to recognize that the GPL applied. Using Open Source doesn't get you many points in my book unless you intend to give something back. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 19:15:26 2011 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 15:15:26 -0400 Subject: Which Wiki is right for you? In-Reply-To: <20111007185627.GA15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8F4AFC.8030400@ss.org> <20111007185627.GA15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4E8F4FCE.1090601@ss.org> On 10/07/2011 02:56 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 02:54:52PM -0400, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> I've recently been looking at setting up my own personal wiki. >> Part of my desires is the it be F/OSS, and backed by a Revision >> control system. >> >> Media Wiki is right out on the above two, and that leaves almost 200 >> others wiki solutions out there to choose from. > Why would you want it backed by revision control when part of the point of > most wikis is that they have revision history in them and easily viewable. > > And mediawiki only fails on one as far as I can tell. Revision History, and Revision Control Systems are different in their scope. Sure you can store revision history in a database, but with a control system you can't pull it back out and manipulate it easily. By that definition I would say mediawiki also is a form of RCS. I'm picking a revision control system because most wikis based on them leave the source in plain text files. This is beneficial to me as I prefer to do my writing/editing in an editor, not a browser. Using a RCSs like git or mercurial also means I can work on branched updates to my wiki in private and then push them back to the public instance when I'm ready. The closest mediawiki came to this was with the 3rd party wikipediaFS which was a FUSE based file system interface. Unfortunately it has fallen out of maintenance and at last check no longer worked correctly with recent version of mediawiki. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 19:17:27 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 15:17:27 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111007191727.GB15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 02:58:59PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I'm lobster friendly. I'll eat them whenever they are available. > > Apple will use open source but isn't very good at giving back. > > - they like BSD licensed code because it doesn't force them to give > back. The Darwin process is more open than required, but still > not very good. > > - when they used GPLed code, they have a long term plan to migrate > away. Example: migrating from GCC. Example: migrating from Samba > Domain Server stuff (I don't know enough about this to even get the > description right). That's probably their main reason for wanting to move from GCC, although GCC isn't a very good compiler to begin with so there are probably other reasons too. > - the only reason that their Objective C front-end to GCC was released > was because Stallman or his proxies forced them to recognize that > the GPL applied. Actually they didn't. They blackmailed Next. Unfortunately the GPL really didn't apply to that situation. > Using Open Source doesn't get you many points in my book unless you > intend to give something back. At least Google does controbute back changes for the open source they use as infrastructure. Their own code for the core business on the other hand they keep to themselves. But that stuff isn't open source to begin with. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 19:19:46 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 15:19:46 -0400 Subject: Which Wiki is right for you? In-Reply-To: <4E8F4FCE.1090601-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8F4AFC.8030400@ss.org> <20111007185627.GA15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E8F4FCE.1090601@ss.org> Message-ID: <20111007191946.GC15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 03:15:26PM -0400, Scott Sullivan wrote: > Revision History, and Revision Control Systems are different in > their scope. Sure you can store revision history in a database, but > with a control system you can't pull it back out and manipulate it > easily. By that definition I would say mediawiki also is a form of > RCS. > > I'm picking a revision control system because most wikis based on > them leave the source in plain text files. This is beneficial to me > as I prefer to do my writing/editing in an editor, not a browser. Mediawiki filesystem seems to provide that too. > Using a RCSs like git or mercurial also means I can work on branched > updates to my wiki in private and then push them back to the public > instance when I'm ready. OK so what you really wanted was a revision controlled web page framework for publishing web pages. You don't want a wiki at all. > The closest mediawiki came to this was with the 3rd party > wikipediaFS which was a FUSE based file system interface. > Unfortunately it has fallen out of maintenance and at last check no > longer worked correctly with recent version of mediawiki. Oh they stopped doing that? It sounded so neat. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 20:07:23 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 16:07:23 -0400 Subject: Which Wiki is right for you? In-Reply-To: <20111007185627.GA15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8F4AFC.8030400@ss.org> <20111007185627.GA15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 02:54:52PM -0400, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> I've recently been looking at setting up my own personal wiki. >> Part of my desires is the it be F/OSS, and backed by a Revision >> control system. >> >> Media Wiki is right out on the above two, and that leaves almost 200 >> others wiki solutions out there to choose from. > > Why would you want it backed by revision control when part of the point of > most wikis is that they have revision history in them and easily viewable. > > And mediawiki only fails on one as far as I can tell. I very much like the notion of having the capture be done in a distributed SCM, as this means that I can have copies pulled out "offline" very easily. The GTALUG wiki currently resides in a Mediawiki instance; having my "own copy" would require that I take a backup of the database, and install a duplicate of its configuration on my own server. And any hacking around I might do with my copy would need to be re-done in order to get the "master" updated. In contrast, supposing it was managed using ikiwiki +Git, then, given a suitable address, I could readily "git clone" and have my own copy that I could keep up to date as easily as a cron entry of "* * 1 * * (cd /home/cbbrowne/GTALUG.git; git pull origin master)". And that update would incrementally capture changes; it wouldn't need to be a 'full backup.' Further, given an ssh key, I could hack on my copy, and "git push origin master" to push my changes over to the "official" instance. I observe that this is exactly what Software In The Public Interest has done with their web site: is the Git repo that publishes . I note that "our own" Robert Brockway is one of the heavy editors of that repo :-). I haven't been entirely thrilled with ikiwiki (http://ikiwiki.info) in my bit of playing with it; I'm keeping my eyes peeled as other things like gitit, git-wiki, emerge. Here's a nice description of things someone else found dreadful about wiki implementations that I, at first glance, mostly agree with. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 20:19:43 2011 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 16:19:43 -0400 Subject: Which Wiki is right for you? In-Reply-To: <4E8F4AFC.8030400-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8F4AFC.8030400@ss.org> Message-ID: My current favorite is MarkDoc . On Friday, October 7, 2011, Scott Sullivan wrote: > I've recently been looking at setting up my own personal wiki. > Part of my desires is the it be F/OSS, and backed by a Revision control system. > > Media Wiki is right out on the above two, and that leaves almost 200 others wiki solutions out there to choose from. > > But surprisingly, there is a service that helps you figure it out. O_o! > http://www.wikimatrix.org/ > > And the have a wizard that parred down my requirements to just 15 options. Nice. > http://www.wikimatrix.org/wizard.php > > > Thought I'd share. > > -- > Scott Sullivan > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Myles Braithwaite http://mylesbraithwaite.com | me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 20:30:00 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 16:30:00 -0400 Subject: today: cheap 16 port gig switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F6148.8020000@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Sounds good, but... Reading the fine print, only 2 of the ports are > gig! This sure seems like a misleading headline. > In industrial level gear, those would be sold as 24 port 100 MB with 2 GB uplink ports. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 20:32:05 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 16:32:05 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F61C5.3090600@rogers.com> Thomas Milne wrote: > Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to > learn to choose his battles. > > http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) > > This sort of thing is why I don't care much for RMS. While he's done a lot for software, he tends to be a bit extreme, to the point of being destructive. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 20:31:59 2011 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 16:31:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Which Wiki is right for you? In-Reply-To: <4E8F4FCE.1090601-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8F4AFC.8030400@ss.org> <20111007185627.GA15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E8F4FCE.1090601@ss.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Scott Sullivan wrote: ... > I'm picking a revision control system because most wikis based on them leave > the source in plain text files. This is beneficial to me as I prefer to do my > writing/editing in an editor, not a browser. I agree, which I why I have the "It's All Text" extension in Firefox. It allows me to use my favourite text editor on textarea fields on a website. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From self_same_self-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 22:00:47 2011 From: self_same_self-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 18:00:47 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: <4E8F61C5.3090600-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8F61C5.3090600@rogers.com> Message-ID: I just saw this on HN. The Most Excellent and Lamentable Tragedy of Richard Stallman http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms >From 2005. On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 4:32 PM, James Knott wrote: > Thomas Milne wrote: > >> Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to >> learn to choose his battles. >> >> http://stallman.org/archives/**2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_** >> 2011_(Steve_Jobs) >> >> >> > > This sort of thing is why I don't care much for RMS. While he's done a lot > for software, he tends to be a bit extreme, to the point of being > destructive. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 22:06:19 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 18:06:19 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: FSOSS: Oct. 27-29th, Cheap Tickets End Oct 8th In-Reply-To: <4E8DEECA.4070806-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <4E8DEECA.4070806@ss.org> Message-ID: On 6 October 2011 14:09, Scott Sullivan wrote: > Just a reminder to all that the Free Software and Open Source Symposium is > coming up. > > Currently admission is only $40 for the three days, but only till the end of > October 8th. > > If you some how miss that, GTALug members will also be eligible to enter in > a Raffle for free Admission to the Event. This will take place at our AGM on > the 11th and any member present at the meeting can enter. > > http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2011/ > * > FSOSS October 27-29th, 2011*. > > at the Seneca at York Campus, Toronto > > Register: > https://matrix.senecac.on.ca:8443/fsoss/fsoss/register2011.php The registration address is inaccessible through both Toronto Public Library's internal network and through TPL's public wireless. I'll try tonight through teksavvy. We suspect the TPL IT department doesn't allow https: on a non-standard port, but I'm not in IT so I'm not sure. And I have no explanation, not even a gues, for the failure on the TPL wireless ... unless the server has been down for more than 24 hours (I've tried several times). -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 22:18:13 2011 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 18:18:13 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: FSOSS: Oct. 27-29th, Cheap Tickets End Oct 8th In-Reply-To: References: <4E8DEECA.4070806@ss.org> Message-ID: <-5700705998045408916@unknownmsgid> I will forward to the IT person running the site. Thanks for pointing it out. Sent from my mobile On 2011-10-07, at 18:06, Giles Orr wrote: > On 6 October 2011 14:09, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> Just a reminder to all that the Free Software and Open Source Symposium is >> coming up. >> >> Currently admission is only $40 for the three days, but only till the end of >> October 8th. >> >> If you some how miss that, GTALug members will also be eligible to enter in >> a Raffle for free Admission to the Event. This will take place at our AGM on >> the 11th and any member present at the meeting can enter. >> >> http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2011/ >> * >> FSOSS October 27-29th, 2011*. >> >> at the Seneca at York Campus, Toronto >> >> Register: >> https://matrix.senecac.on.ca:8443/fsoss/fsoss/register2011.php > > The registration address is inaccessible through both Toronto Public > Library's internal network and through TPL's public wireless. I'll > try tonight through teksavvy. We suspect the TPL IT department > doesn't allow https: on a non-standard port, but I'm not in IT so I'm > not sure. And I have no explanation, not even a gues, for the failure > on the TPL wireless ... unless the server has been down for more than > 24 hours (I've tried several times). > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 22:21:57 2011 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 18:21:57 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: FSOSS: Oct. 27-29th, Cheap Tickets End Oct 8th In-Reply-To: References: <4E8DEECA.4070806@ss.org> Message-ID: <4E8F7B85.3070400@ss.org> On 10/07/2011 06:06 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > On 6 October 2011 14:09, Scott Sullivan wrote: >> Just a reminder to all that the Free Software and Open Source Symposium is >> coming up. >> >> Currently admission is only $40 for the three days, but only till the end of >> October 8th. >> >> If you some how miss that, GTALug members will also be eligible to enter in >> a Raffle for free Admission to the Event. This will take place at our AGM on >> the 11th and any member present at the meeting can enter. >> >> http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2011/ >> * >> FSOSS October 27-29th, 2011*. >> >> at the Seneca at York Campus, Toronto >> >> Register: >> https://matrix.senecac.on.ca:8443/fsoss/fsoss/register2011.php > The registration address is inaccessible through both Toronto Public > Library's internal network and through TPL's public wireless. I'll > try tonight through teksavvy. We suspect the TPL IT department > doesn't allow https: on a non-standard port, but I'm not in IT so I'm > not sure. And I have no explanation, not even a gues, for the failure > on the TPL wireless ... unless the server has been down for more than > 24 hours (I've tried several times). > Evening Giles & Whom Else it concerns. I can confirm that the site was working when I sent the message out, and is working currently. In the past when using the TPL Public Wireless I've not been able to use ssh on anything but the standard port. (Causing me to leapfrog though another server at times to get to my destination). The do tend to run a very inters testing Ship out there, tightened in all the odd places. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 18:24:16 2011 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:24:16 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: <20111007181101.GV15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 01:42:41PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to >> learn to choose his battles. > > Unfortunately I think I actually agree with him for once. ?Eek. ?Not a > very nice way to say it though. You just like being a contrarian. And don't say, "No, I don't." It's not funny. -- G. Matthew Rice ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? gpg id: EF9AAD20 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 23:33:19 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 19:33:19 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: <20111007181101.GV15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 01:42:41PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Seriously?? Can't he keep his mouth shut for 3 seconds? Guy needs to >> learn to choose his battles. >> >> http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs) > > Stallman is quite the nut job. > > Unfortunately I think I actually agree with him for once. ?Eek. ?Not a > very nice way to say it though. > > I do actually have a vague hope Apple just might become a nicer company > now, but I am not very optimistic. Yep, RMS is definitely an ass, but I am afraid I am compelled to mostly agree with his concerns, if not with how gracefully he put things. While, with two options (better|worse), it is NOT the case that there is an equal chance of either possibility, I rather think there's a fair bit of risk of Apple getting worse. With Jobs on the job, there was a focus on whatever was the new thing, to the point of monomania. In his absence, it's pretty plausible that the company may fall into more of a tendency of playing more and more licensing games. Witness the jousting with tablet vendors over similarities to iPad. That's not a direction towards "nicer" company... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 7 23:38:11 2011 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 19:38:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: <4E8DC9FB.1050407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> <20111006144821.GR15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E8DC08E.40009@connortechnology.com> <1317914982.2023.4.camel@jimslaptop> <4E8DC9FB.1050407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4E8F8D63.4010704@ve3syb.ca> On 11-10-06 11:32 AM, Stephen wrote: > I recommend http://laptopcentre.ca/index.php > > These guys know their stuff and don't have the box store overhead. They may know laptops but apparently not as much when it comes to websites. I just clicked their "all products" link on the right side of their website and got a SQL error. :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 01:09:09 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 21:09:09 -0400 Subject: Balky mounting of external devices Message-ID: <20111008010909.GA10024@waltdnes.org> This has happened to me with a few different external devices (USB keys, etc) on multiple computers, so it seems to be a generic problem. Right now, I have an HTC Desire HD with the smae problem... * Either hit {CTRL}{ALT}{F12} to switch to tty12 or else (as root) execute "tail -f /var/log/messages" * Attach a device to the PC's USB port, and you'll see a bunch of stuff spewing out. In my case, the last 3 lines are... Oct 7 20:50:23 localhost kernel: [114416.426175] scsi 26:0:0:0: Direct-Access HTC Android Phone 0100 PQ: 0 ANSI: 2 Oct 7 20:50:23 localhost kernel: [114416.426336] sd 26:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg3 type 0 Oct 7 20:50:23 localhost kernel: [114416.432119] sd 26:0:0:0: [sdc] Attached SCSI removable disk * If I try mounting /dev/sdc1 (either as ordinary user or root), it's not found * "fdisk -l" doesn't even see /dev/sdc ***BUT*** * as root "fdisk /dev/sdc", and quit immediately and now "fdisk -l" sees /dev/sdc, and regular user can mount it. Has anyone seen this before... and more importantly, found a solution? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 04:46:20 2011 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 00:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: <20111007181101.GV15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Lennart Sorensen wrote: ... > Unfortunately I think I actually agree with him for once. Eek. Not a > very nice way to say it though. (everyone except RMS, that is.) -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 14:36:42 2011 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 10:36:42 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4E905FFA.4030900@yaknet.ca> On 11-10-08 12:46 AM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > ... >> Unfortunately I think I actually agree with him for once. Eek. Not a >> very nice way to say it though. > > > > (everyone except RMS, that is.) > Interesting article. I have been saying for many few years that Apple was Microsoft's cousin. As for their products, they are over priced and over hyped. I don't own any and likely never will. There are better products for less. I have to be honest because was initially sadden to hear of his passing as cancer is a curse for all people. I'm surprised that a so called Buddhist could act in such a manner. Hopefully his legacy does come to the forefront and people know the truth. Hopefully there was plenty of good that he did and that comes out as well. The CEO Steve Jobs doesn't sound like a good person. Perhaps he led a double life and did all sorts of wonderful things outside the media spotlights. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 8 16:23:17 2011 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 02:23:17 +1000 (EST) Subject: Which Wiki is right for you? In-Reply-To: References: <4E8F4AFC.8030400@ss.org> <20111007185627.GA15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Christopher Browne wrote: > Further, given an ssh key, I could hack on my copy, and "git push > origin master" to push my changes over to the "official" instance. I was about to post and say "yeah that's what we do in SPI"... > I observe that this is exactly what Software In The Public Interest > has done with their web site: > is the Git repo that > publishes . I note that "our own" Robert > Brockway is one of the heavy editors of that repo :-). Write access is exclusively through ssh key. This is the first time I've used git. It was easy to pick up. > I haven't been entirely thrilled with ikiwiki (http://ikiwiki.info) in > my bit of playing with it; I'm keeping my eyes peeled as other things > like gitit, git-wiki, emerge. I'm not really in love with Ikiwiki but it's what SPI uses so it's what I use to edit the website. Having a local copy of the repo doesn't help me much as I can't easily display the page before pushing it anyway. I ended up solving this by creating a 'drafts'[1] area on the website where I can view draft pages while I'm writing them. [1] A drafts area on the live website works fine for SPI since it aims to achieve as much transparency as possible anyway, but this would not be ok in many organisations. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tentra-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 9 14:34:41 2011 From: tentra-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Seneca Cunningham) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 10:34:41 -0400 Subject: OT: Epson LQ1050 up for grabs Message-ID: <2B542A29-94E6-4347-93F0-A6DC7085224A@gmail.com> I have an old Epson LQ1050 (and manual), and it worked when I last hooked it up. I'm clearing out my excess stuff, and this is part of it. Anyone want it? It worked great with lpr.-- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 9 14:36:11 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 10:36:11 -0400 Subject: A LUG unlike ours... Message-ID: Ran across BAYLUG a user group very unlike ours. Potentially interesting, but no Linux at BAYLUG, just LEGO.... Details to be seen here : http://www.baylug.org/ Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 01:27:00 2011 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:27:00 -0400 Subject: A LUG unlike ours... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9249E4.2090605@ve3syb.ca> On 11-10-09 10:36 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Ran across BAYLUG a user group very unlike ours. Potentially > interesting, but no Linux at BAYLUG, just LEGO.... Details to be seen > here : http://www.baylug.org/ A LEGO user group and train club? That seems like an odd combination unless you are making your trains, train set, and accessory items out of LEGO. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 01:52:22 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:52:22 -0400 Subject: A LUG unlike ours... In-Reply-To: <4E9249E4.2090605-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4E9249E4.2090605@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: Well, Lego has computerized stuff like MindStorm, where wider collaboration would be pretty useful. And note that the MIT hacking community initially coalesced around their model train club. So the train aspect isn't so terribly alien... On Oct 9, 2011 9:27 PM, "Kevin Cozens" wrote: > On 11-10-09 10:36 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > >> Ran across BAYLUG a user group very unlike ours. Potentially >> interesting, but no Linux at BAYLUG, just LEGO.... Details to be seen >> here : http://www.baylug.org/ >> > > A LEGO user group and train club? That seems like an odd combination unless > you are making your trains, train set, and accessory items out of LEGO. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bcopeland-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 13:16:59 2011 From: bcopeland-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Copeland) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:16:59 -0400 Subject: Balky mounting of external devices In-Reply-To: <20111008010909.GA10024-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111008010909.GA10024@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > Oct 7 20:50:23 localhost kernel: [114416.426175] scsi 26:0:0:0: Direct-Access HTC Android Phone 0100 PQ: 0 ANSI: 2 > Oct 7 20:50:23 localhost kernel: [114416.426336] sd 26:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg3 type 0 > Oct 7 20:50:23 localhost kernel: [114416.432119] sd 26:0:0:0: [sdc] Attached SCSI removable disk > > * If I try mounting /dev/sdc1 (either as ordinary user or root), it's > not found > * "fdisk -l" doesn't even see /dev/sdc It's possible that this disk doesn't have a partition table -- try mounting /dev/sdc directly instead of /dev/sdc1. -- Bob Copeland %% www.bobcopeland.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Lmt0BfyYGMw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 10 22:22:44 2011 From: sciguy-Lmt0BfyYGMw at public.gmane.org (sciguy-Lmt0BfyYGMw at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:22:44 -0400 Subject: Kernel version 3 -- did I miss something? Message-ID: <86aa79bd6b47f4ae9010000c03f183e4.squirrel@mail.vex.net> Hello Looks like we've been into kernel version 3 since about May of this year. And this being the first full version increase in 15 years, I thought I would have heard of it. I must have been asleep (or extremely busy with work). Any impressions as to how good/bad this kernel is? Will it work with my AMD Athlon dual-core 64 (which by now has been around a few years)? I've recently been rather unimpressed by my latest Ubuntu and it's wonky desktop, and have been considering changing distros (probably back to Debian) for some time. Maybe in the meantime, if it's feasible I'll compile myself a version 3 kernel. Just like old times. :) Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 02:01:57 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:01:57 -0400 Subject: Any Arduino fans? Message-ID: Not sure how many, if any Arduino fans are on the list. But for any Ardunio fans that are on the list let me point you to this video, one that explains how to do mini-Arduino projects: blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/10/how-to-shrinkify-your-arduino-projects.html Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 02:36:04 2011 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:36:04 -0400 Subject: Kernel version 3 -- did I miss something? In-Reply-To: <86aa79bd6b47f4ae9010000c03f183e4.squirrel-41R2vWz+eC7k1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> References: <86aa79bd6b47f4ae9010000c03f183e4.squirrel@mail.vex.net> Message-ID: <4E93AB94.4010401@ss.org> On 10/10/2011 06:22 PM, sciguy-Lmt0BfyYGMw at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hello > > Looks like we've been into kernel version 3 since about May of this year. > And this being the first full version increase in 15 years, I thought I > would have heard of it. I must have been asleep (or extremely busy with > work). Yes it was big news, but then again there are folks out there that haven't seen Star Wars yet. You are slightly forgiven. :P > Any impressions as to how good/bad this kernel is? Will it work with my > AMD Athlon dual-core 64 (which by now has been around a few years)? I've > recently been rather unimpressed by my latest Ubuntu and it's wonky > desktop, and have been considering changing distros (probably back to > Debian) for some time. Maybe in the meantime, if it's feasible I'll > compile myself a version 3 kernel. Just like old times. :) > Nothing in the way kernels are vetted or released has changed. It's still the same incremental updates we've been having for a long while now. Linus just wanted a change of pace in the numbering. They use to say Linus would have to be nuts for the to be a 3.x kernel. This was close enough as it made no sense other then he said it should be. https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/5/29/204 Same new-old kernel, just a flashy new number. Yay! -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 02:36:50 2011 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:36:50 -0400 Subject: Any Arduino fans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E93ABC2.1040908@ss.org> On 10/10/2011 10:01 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Not sure how many, if any Arduino fans are on the list. But for any > Ardunio fans that are on the list let me point you to this video, one > that explains how to do mini-Arduino projects: > > blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/10/how-to-shrinkify-your-arduino-projects.html > > Colin. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Thank you Collin! I'll be cross posting this to the hacklab.to list. -- Scott Sullivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 03:28:39 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:28:39 -0400 Subject: Kernel version 3 -- did I miss something? In-Reply-To: <86aa79bd6b47f4ae9010000c03f183e4.squirrel-41R2vWz+eC7k1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> References: <86aa79bd6b47f4ae9010000c03f183e4.squirrel@mail.vex.net> Message-ID: <20111011032839.GA21111@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 06:22:44PM -0400, sciguy-Lmt0BfyYGMw at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hello > > Looks like we've been into kernel version 3 since about May of this year. > And this being the first full version increase in 15 years, I thought I > would have heard of it. I must have been asleep (or extremely busy with > work). > > Any impressions as to how good/bad this kernel is? Will it work with my > AMD Athlon dual-core 64 (which by now has been around a few years)? I've > recently been rather unimpressed by my latest Ubuntu and it's wonky > desktop, and have been considering changing distros (probably back to > Debian) for some time. Maybe in the meantime, if it's feasible I'll > compile myself a version 3 kernel. Just like old times. :) Been runing 3.0.4 for a while. No problem. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 04:34:55 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 00:34:55 -0400 Subject: Kernel version 3 -- did I miss something? In-Reply-To: <4E93AB94.4010401-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org> References: <86aa79bd6b47f4ae9010000c03f183e4.squirrel@mail.vex.net> <4E93AB94.4010401@ss.org> Message-ID: <20111011043455.GA6570@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:36:04PM -0400, Scott Sullivan wrote > Nothing in the way kernels are vetted or released has changed. It's > still the same incremental updates we've been having for a long while > now. Linus just wanted a change of pace in the numbering. > > They use to say Linus would have to be nuts for the to be a 3.x kernel. > This was close enough as it made no sense other then he said it should be. > > https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/5/29/204 > > Same new-old kernel, just a flashy new number. Yay! Even that is causing problems. You wouldn't believe how many build files break, because they're hard-coded to expect 2.something. Arrrgh. This especially affects Gentoo, which builds almost everything from source. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 17:54:34 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:54:34 -0400 Subject: I Need a DisplayPort to VGA Adapter for Tonight's Presentation Message-ID: <4E9482DA.9090603@dinamis.com> Hi, I'd prefer to use my Mac for my presentation on how to use Trac for project management tonight. I need Internet access, a projector, and a DisplayPort to VGA adapter to connect to the projector. Can someone please bring one for me to use? -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 18:13:47 2011 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:13:47 -0400 Subject: I Need a DisplayPort to VGA Adapter for Tonight's Presentation In-Reply-To: <4E9482DA.9090603-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4E9482DA.9090603@dinamis.com> Message-ID: Already pack them in the laptop bag. On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:54 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Hi, > > I'd prefer to use my Mac for my presentation on how to use Trac for project > management tonight. I need Internet access, a projector, and a DisplayPort > to VGA adapter to connect to the projector. Can someone please bring one for > me to use? > -- > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis > 1419-3266 Yonge St. > Toronto, ON > Canada ?M4N 3P6 > > > +1 416-410-3326 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Myles Braithwaite http://mylesbraithwaite.com | me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 18:23:14 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:23:14 -0400 Subject: I Need a DisplayPort to VGA Adapter for Tonight's Presentation In-Reply-To: References: <4E9482DA.9090603@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4E948992.3030206@dinamis.com> On 10/11/2011 02:13 PM, Myles Braithwaite wrote: > Already pack them in the laptop bag. Thank you. I'll bring my ThinkPad running Windows XP, too, just in case. It's older and not as pleasant to use. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 11 21:27:43 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:27:43 -0400 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: <4E8DC9FB.1050407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop> <20111006144821.GR15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E8DC08E.40009@connortechnology.com> <1317914982.2023.4.camel@jimslaptop> <4E8DC9FB.1050407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111011212743.GA7839@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:32:11AM -0400, Stephen wrote > These guys know their stuff and don't have the box store overhead. What he said. I was down there earlier today, because my laptop was acting up. I went there with my laptop and charger, and described the symptoms to the guy at the counter. He looked at the charger and did a double-take. Then he looked at the battery and the charger again. Guy... Do you have a netbook at home? Me... Yes. Why? Guy... Because you're using the wrong charger. The symptoms you describe are exactly what happens when you use an under-powered charger. Try the other charger you have at home and see what happens. Me... Facepalm It was all over in 2 minutes flat, and he didn't even charge the minimum diagnostic fee. All it cost me was a couple of hours of my time, 2 TTC tokens, and some wounded pride. I'm at home now, updating Gentoo (emerge system and world after a gcc upgrade), and it's humming along. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 01:37:00 2011 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 01:37:00 +0000 Subject: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem In-Reply-To: <20111011212743.GA7839-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <1317870667.2062.14.camel@jimslaptop>,,<20111006144821.GR15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>,<4E8DC08E.40009@connortechnology.com>,<1317914982.2023.4.camel@jimslaptop>,<4E8DC9FB.1050407@rogers.com>,<20111011212743.GA7839@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: Walter, your story put a smile on my face. Thanks for sharing. John > From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:27:43 -0400 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT: Weird Laptop Battery Problem > > On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:32:11AM -0400, Stephen wrote > > > These guys know their stuff and don't have the box store overhead. > > What he said. > > I was down there earlier today, because my laptop was acting up. I > went there with my laptop and charger, and described the symptoms to the > guy at the counter. He looked at the charger and did a double-take. > Then he looked at the battery and the charger again. > > Guy... Do you have a netbook at home? > > Me... Yes. Why? > > Guy... Because you're using the wrong charger. The symptoms you > describe are exactly what happens when you use an under-powered > charger. Try the other charger you have at home and see what > happens. > > Me... Facepalm > > It was all over in 2 minutes flat, and he didn't even charge the > minimum diagnostic fee. All it cost me was a couple of hours of my > time, 2 TTC tokens, and some wounded pride. I'm at home now, > updating Gentoo (emerge system and world after a gcc upgrade), and it's > humming along. > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 16:56:49 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:56:49 -0400 Subject: Kernel version 3 -- did I miss something? In-Reply-To: <86aa79bd6b47f4ae9010000c03f183e4.squirrel-41R2vWz+eC7k1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> References: <86aa79bd6b47f4ae9010000c03f183e4.squirrel@mail.vex.net> Message-ID: <20111012165649.GD15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 06:22:44PM -0400, sciguy-Lmt0BfyYGMw at public.gmane.org wrote: > Looks like we've been into kernel version 3 since about May of this year. > And this being the first full version increase in 15 years, I thought I > would have heard of it. I must have been asleep (or extremely busy with > work). > > Any impressions as to how good/bad this kernel is? Will it work with my > AMD Athlon dual-core 64 (which by now has been around a few years)? I've > recently been rather unimpressed by my latest Ubuntu and it's wonky > desktop, and have been considering changing distros (probably back to > Debian) for some time. Maybe in the meantime, if it's feasible I'll > compile myself a version 3 kernel. Just like old times. :) Version 3.0 is simply version 2.6.40 except Linus decided that he was tired of having a constant 2.6 in front of the version and thought 40 was higher than he could count or something like that. 2.6.39 to 3.0 is actually a pretty small update compared to many previous updates. Next kernel will be 3.1. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 17:06:44 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:06:44 -0400 Subject: Richard M. Stallman is glad Jobs is gone In-Reply-To: References: <20111007181101.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111012170644.GE15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 12:46:20AM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > > (everyone except RMS, that is.) Much better way to put it. Nice article. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 12 22:57:21 2011 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:57:21 -0400 Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: GTALUG @ FSOSS, A chance to tell your story! (Call for Volunteers) Message-ID: <4E961B51.9040205@ss.org> Greetings, With the Free Software and Open Source Symposium at the end of the month, most of you have probably already heard that GTALUG will be in attendance as a Sponsor. GTALUG has always been a group about the people in it and I don't doubt many of you have great stories about times you had that "one burning question" answered, or at least been pointed in the right direction. Or you've come out of a talk with a deeper understanding of a concept or tool that you didn't have before. It is these kinds of experiences we try to foster and wish to share with others. If you have one of these stories, are going to be at FSOSS, and have an hour or two to spare, we would love you to come by the table and be an ambassador for the group. This is a chance to tell those stories to others who would not normally know about or think to come to GTALUG. Take a look at the schedule and email me off-list if you'd like to assist us in promoting GTALUG within the community. http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2011/schedule -- Scott Sullivan GTALUG Conference Coordinator scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org 647-235-9654 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 01:15:18 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:15:18 -0400 Subject: Grant Officer Message-ID: Another update via Jim Mercer: -------------------------------------------- Sorry for the late notice, but Grant is being moved to a hospital in London in the morning. If you want to visit him in Toronto, tonight would be the night. St. Mike's, 9th floor, Room 918. And don't forget to spread the word about his birthday gathering on Saturday. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 03:41:39 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away Message-ID: > From: Nevin Liber > Date: October 12, 2011 7:50:04 PM PDT > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away > Reply-To: c++std-all-asIZ316RZTI at public.gmane.org > > > > via Rob Pike - 8:02 PM - Public > I just heard that, after a long illness, Dennis Ritchie (dmr) died at home this weekend. I have no more information. > > I trust there are people here who will appreciate the reach of his contributions and mourn his passing appropriately. > > He was a quiet and mostly private man, but he was also my friend, colleague, and collaborator, and the world has lost a truly great mind. > -- > Nevin Liber (847) 691-1404 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 04:38:33 2011 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:38:33 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 11.10 Release Party Message-ID: <20111013043832.GA25567@pogoplugpink.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Hi everyone! Mike Kaulbach at the Toronto Free Net is organizing the Ubuntu 11.10 release party for tomorrow at the Alio Lounge at 7pm. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-ca/1262/detail/ Drop by and say hi and hang out for a bit. The Alio Lounge is on the North-West corner of Bay and Dundas. http://aliotoronto.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 13:22:17 2011 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:22:17 -0400 Subject: OT:solar panel supplier Message-ID: Can anyone recommend resources to find, and get background info for solar panel suppliers ? Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 14:22:51 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:22:51 -0400 Subject: OT:solar panel supplier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Dave Cramer wrote: > Can anyone recommend resources to find, and get background info for > solar panel suppliers ? CanSIA's the industry association: http://cansia.ca/ - they have a comprehensive member directory. If you're doing anything for FIT or microFIT, it has to be majority Ontario manufactured. My work involves specifying (admittedly very very large) solar PV systems, if you need any help. Stewart -- http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 15:34:37 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:34:37 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:41 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> From: Nevin Liber >> Date: October 12, 2011 7:50:04 PM PDT >> To: undisclosed-recipients:; >> Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away >> Reply-To: c++std-all-asIZ316RZTI at public.gmane.org >> >> >> >> via Rob Pike ?- ?8:02 PM ?- ?Public >> I just heard that, after a long illness, Dennis Ritchie (dmr) died at home this weekend. I have no more information. >> >> I trust there are people here who will appreciate the reach of his contributions and mourn his passing appropriately. >> >> He was a quiet and mostly private man, but he was also my friend, colleague, and collaborator, and the world has lost a truly great mind. >> -- >> ?Nevin Liber ? ?(847) 691-1404 Very sad to hear. I trust everyone here knows who Dennis Ritchie was, just in case there is someone who doesn't know: - Creator of the C programming language. - Co-creator of the Unix operating system - Co-author of "The C Programming Language" (arguably our field's greatest textbook) Also sad to see, while Steve Jobs death got front page treatment, the mainstream press seems to have ignored the death of a man who arguably had a greater impact on the computer industry than Mr. Jobs. Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 16:00:42 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:00:42 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Also sad to see, while Steve Jobs death got front page treatment, the > mainstream press seems to have ignored the death of a man who arguably > had a greater impact on the computer industry than Mr. Jobs. dmr won't get nearly the same accolades from the general public, but within our community, he is surely noticed. This was a blow, for sure. "When I saw the news about Steve Jobs it was a shock. But the news that Dennis Ritchie has died was much more like a blow. I didn't know him super well, we attended Usenix together for many years, but he was mostly a quiet man, not the sort to seek the limelight." -- Brad Templeton "It?s probably essentially impossible to explain to civilians how much dmr?s work mattered and matters." -- Tim Bray http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/rip-dmr.html A happier moment... http://pastebin.com/vBRynAXw Steve Jobs' passing is marred by distasteful things; I point to the "iSad" product line . Since, as Tim Bray comments, dmr's work doesn't visibly "matter" to people not involved with Unix, I don't think we'll see nearly so many tasteless things about him. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 16:20:49 2011 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:20:49 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:41 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >>> From: Nevin Liber >>> Date: October 12, 2011 7:50:04 PM PDT > Also sad to see, while Steve Jobs death got front page treatment, the > mainstream press seems to have ignored the death of a man who arguably > had a greater impact on the computer industry than Mr. Jobs. > > > Colin. I second you completely on this. K&R have had a much more profound impact in our field than many others who more well known. -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 16:43:30 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! Message-ID: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I came across a CPU benchmark ??? where AMD Bulldozer (released yesterday) can't beat a year-old Intel i7-2600. Price difference is $80 which is nothing compared to overall system cost. Can someone explain to me why AMD is doing this? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 17:19:43 2011 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:19:43 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OORdMXk8NaZPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> On 10/13/2011 12:43 PM, William Park wrote: > I came across a CPU benchmark > > where AMD Bulldozer (released yesterday) can't beat a year-old Intel i7-2600. > Price difference is $80 which is nothing compared to overall system cost. > Can someone explain to me why AMD is doing this? > The benchmark isn't really using multicore?, and bull has 8, so it probably makes sense in a server, but no dice on a desktop, having said that, its pretty sad how desktop isn't making use of multicore in most software, and by that I mean N cores, not 2-3. There is a multicore zip program for linux, but i don't even think its standard install yet. We are a multicore world (on desktop) living with a single core application base :( and the worst part- we can't blame Bill for this mess :( -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 17:26:42 2011 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:26:42 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 11.10 Release Party In-Reply-To: <20111013043832.GA25567-Z+pK6GCb6EWdIoqhcP47WetNOYkX6+2uxDRhNaKAnwpYzD5mSbZInQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111013043832.GA25567@pogoplugpink.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <4E971F52.1030202@ve3syb.ca> On 11-10-13 12:38 AM, Sammy Lao wrote: > Mike Kaulbach at the Toronto Free Net is organizing the Ubuntu 11.10 > release party for tomorrow at the Alio Lounge at 7pm. Having just gotten this message today, it seems the release party is today (Thursday) and not tomorrow according to the information on the webpage at the link provided. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 17:43:53 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:43:53 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:41 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >>>> From: Nevin Liber >>>> Date: October 12, 2011 7:50:04 PM PDT >> Also sad to see, while Steve Jobs death got front page treatment, the >> mainstream press seems to have ignored the death of a man who arguably >> had a greater impact on the computer industry than Mr. Jobs. >> >> >> Colin. > > I second you completely on this. K&R have had a much more profound > impact in our field than many others who more well known. Yes, K&R (Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie), co-authors of "The C Programming Language" and co-creators of Unix have had a greater impact on the field than just about any other pairing, including Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Ran across the following quotes from Dennis Ritchie: "I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the demigodic party." "Usenet is a strange place." "UNIX is very simple, it just needs a genius to understand its simplicity." "C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success." Colin McGregor P.S.: I gather that Toronto born Brian Kernighan is still very much alive and working as a computer science professor at Princeton University... > -- > Alejandro Imass > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 18:09:22 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:09:22 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jobs was not only a geek of sorts but also a businessman. He was tied strongly to the image of his product, which - love it our hate it - is very popular in the mainstream. Lack of news doesn't lessen Dennis' contributions, it just means that he was less of a public figure or publicity hound. RIP. On Oct 13, 2011 8:35 AM, "Colin McGregor" wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:41 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier > wrote: > >> From: Nevin Liber > >> Date: October 12, 2011 7:50:04 PM PDT > >> To: undisclosed-recipients:; > >> Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away > >> Reply-To: c++std-all-asIZ316RZTI at public.gmane.org > >> > >> > >> > >> via Rob Pike - 8:02 PM - Public > >> I just heard that, after a long illness, Dennis Ritchie (dmr) died at > home this weekend. I have no more information. > >> > >> I trust there are people here who will appreciate the reach of his > contributions and mourn his passing appropriately. > >> > >> He was a quiet and mostly private man, but he was also my friend, > colleague, and collaborator, and the world has lost a truly great mind. > >> -- > >> Nevin Liber (847) 691-1404 > > Very sad to hear. I trust everyone here knows who Dennis Ritchie was, > just in case there is someone who doesn't know: > > - Creator of the C programming language. > - Co-creator of the Unix operating system > - Co-author of "The C Programming Language" (arguably our field's > greatest textbook) > > Also sad to see, while Steve Jobs death got front page treatment, the > mainstream press seems to have ignored the death of a man who arguably > had a greater impact on the computer industry than Mr. Jobs. > > > Colin. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 18:17:00 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:17:00 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <4E971DAF.5050005-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: Multiple might not do much for your standard app, but having an OS that uses it well (and enough ram for a lot of apps running) still works out nicely. My 1.6ghz dual-core atom it's still much nicer for doing a lot if stuff at one than my old 3ghz P4. At 3+ghz (4+ at turbo),8 core, and 8mb L2+8mb L3 cache, the newer AMD CPU's still seem pretty awesome for the price-point. The 120W power consumption is a bit of a *yikes* though. On Oct 13, 2011 10:23 AM, "Ted" wrote: > On 10/13/2011 12:43 PM, William Park wrote: > >> I came across a CPU benchmark >> >> > >> where AMD Bulldozer (released yesterday) can't beat a year-old Intel >> i7-2600. >> Price difference is $80 which is nothing compared to overall system cost. >> Can someone explain to me why AMD is doing this? >> >> The benchmark isn't really using multicore?, and bull has 8, so it > probably makes sense in a server, > but no dice on a desktop, having said that, its pretty sad how desktop > isn't making use of multicore in most software, > and by that I mean N cores, not 2-3. There is a multicore zip program for > linux, but i don't even think its standard install yet. > We are a multicore world (on desktop) living with a single core application > base :( and the worst part- we can't blame Bill for this mess :( > > -tl > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 18:19:53 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:19:53 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Jobs was not only a geek of sorts but also a businessman. He was tied > strongly to the image of his product, which - love it our hate it - is very > popular in the mainstream. True. > Lack of news doesn't lessen Dennis' contributions, it just means that he was > less of a public figure or publicity hound. Here is a video that has interviews with some of the early Unix people (including Dennis Richie) at Bell Labs : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoVQTPbD6UY . But compared to Steve Jobs, video with Dennis Richie will I expect be far harder to find. > RIP. > > On Oct 13, 2011 8:35 AM, "Colin McGregor" wrote: >> >> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:41 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier >> wrote: >> >> From: Nevin Liber >> >> Date: October 12, 2011 7:50:04 PM PDT >> >> To: undisclosed-recipients:; >> >> Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away >> >> Reply-To: c++std-all-asIZ316RZTI at public.gmane.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> via Rob Pike ?- ?8:02 PM ?- ?Public >> >> I just heard that, after a long illness, Dennis Ritchie (dmr) died at >> >> home this weekend. I have no more information. >> >> >> >> I trust there are people here who will appreciate the reach of his >> >> contributions and mourn his passing appropriately. >> >> >> >> He was a quiet and mostly private man, but he was also my friend, >> >> colleague, and collaborator, and the world has lost a truly great mind. >> >> -- >> >> ?Nevin Liber ? ?(847) 691-1404 >> >> Very sad to hear. I trust everyone here knows who Dennis Ritchie was, >> just in case there is someone who doesn't know: >> >> - Creator of the C programming language. >> - Co-creator of the Unix operating system >> - Co-author of "The C Programming Language" (arguably our field's >> greatest textbook) >> >> Also sad to see, while Steve Jobs death got front page treatment, the >> mainstream press seems to have ignored the death of a man who arguably >> had a greater impact on the computer industry than Mr. Jobs. >> >> >> Colin. >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 18:49:25 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:49:25 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <4E971DAF.5050005-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> Ted wrote: > and the worst part- we can't blame Bill for this mess Sure we can. OS/2 and it's apps were multithreaded 20 years ago and could have made use of multiple cores had they been available back then. You can thank BG for killing OS/2 and a lot of excellent technology with it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 19:09:32 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <4E9732B5.2050001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1318532972.29805.YahooMailNeo@web113405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >> and the worst part- we can't blame Bill for this mess > > Sure we can.? OS/2 and it's apps were multithreaded 20 years ago and could > have made use of multiple cores had they been available back then.? You can > thank BG for killing OS/2 and a lot of excellent technology with it. No, that was IBM's fault.? I remember OS/2, because I couldn't afford it. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 19:17:30 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:17:30 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <1318532972.29805.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3N+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> <1318532972.29805.YahooMailNeo@web113405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E97394A.2010104@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > > >>> and the worst part- we can't blame Bill for this mess >>> >> Sure we can. OS/2 and it's apps were multithreaded 20 years ago and could >> have made use of multiple cores had they been available back then. You can >> thank BG for killing OS/2 and a lot of excellent technology with it. >> > No, that was IBM's fault. I remember OS/2, because I couldn't afford it. > So then, it was IBM who punished computer manufactures who dared to sell computers with anything other than Windows? Or who took IBMs OS/2 development money and used it for Windows? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 20:18:22 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:18:22 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <4E971DAF.5050005-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111013201822.GF15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 01:19:43PM -0400, Ted wrote: > The benchmark isn't really using multicore?, and bull has 8, so it > probably makes sense in a server, > but no dice on a desktop, having said that, its pretty sad how > desktop isn't making use of multicore in most software, > and by that I mean N cores, not 2-3. There is a multicore zip > program for linux, but i don't even think its standard install yet. > We are a multicore world (on desktop) living with a single core > application base :( and the worst part- we can't blame Bill for this > mess :( So far the only benchmark I have seen that the FX8150 won, was a 7zip run. Most things even highly multithreaded seem to run a bit faster on the i7-2600. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 20:19:43 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:19:43 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <4E9732B5.2050001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111013201943.GG15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 02:49:25PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Sure we can. OS/2 and it's apps were multithreaded 20 years ago and > could have made use of multiple cores had they been available back > then. You can thank BG for killing OS/2 and a lot of excellent > technology with it. NT could use multiple threads and cores just as well as OS/2. People wanted DOS compatibility more than they wanted multithreading. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 21:36:55 2011 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:36:55 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:41 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: [...] > P.S.: I gather that Toronto born Brian Kernighan is still very much > alive and working as a computer science professor at Princeton > University... You know I still hold a hard cover 2nd edition when C was a _proposed_ ANSI! It's still one of the best written books in computing I have ever read. Entertaining and easy to read, short and to the point. Anyone can learn C with this book! BTW, now that you brought up quotes and Kernighan, here is one of the ones I live by every day: "Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian Kernighan Best, -- Alejandro Imass -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 13 21:55:18 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:55:18 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <4E97394A.2010104-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> <1318532972.29805.YahooMailNeo@web113405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E97394A.2010104@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 3:17 PM, James Knott wrote: > William Park wrote: >>>> ?and the worst part- we can't blame Bill for this mess >>>> >>> >>> Sure we can. ?OS/2 and it's apps were multithreaded 20 years ago and >>> could >>> have made use of multiple cores had they been available back then. ?You >>> can >>> thank BG for killing OS/2 and a lot of excellent technology with it. >>> >> >> No, that was IBM's fault. ?I remember OS/2, because I couldn't afford it. > > So then, it was IBM who punished computer manufactures who dared to sell > computers with anything other than Windows? ?Or who took IBMs OS/2 > development money and used it for Windows? When I lived in Texas, my neighbor worked for the PC division, and they had a pretty spectacular degree of Microsoft-centrism, to the point of being more loyal to MSFT, in some ways, than to their own company. Buddy couldn't imagine them finding anyone interested in buying machines running OS/2, irrespective of how this affected the price of the bundle. And presumably other portions of the organization would have difficulty imagining anyone wanting anything not running OS/400. At the same time, my brother was doing APL development at IBM, and they exclusively used Dyalog APL, even though there was a whole division of IBM responsible for hawking their own APL2 product. The trouble was that they could get discounts from Dyalog that would make it *look* cheap to buy it, even though the would-be license fees for APL2 would have been 'pure profit' for IBM, as overall organization. The divisions were exceedingly divided, with quite a lot of "ne'er the twain shall meet." Thinking about IBM as if it's "an organization" is a pretty big mistake... -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 00:41:01 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:41:01 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <4E9732B5.2050001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4E97851D.9080900@gmail.com> On 11-10-13 14:49 , James Knott wrote: > > OS/2 and it's apps were multithreaded 20 years ago OS/2 Warp's multithreadedness is the reason I've used Linux since 1995. I bought Warp, but its file manager had a delightful and pretty fork-bomb (a window would open, then a view would open inside that, then one would open inside that, until the thing ran out of resources and fell over). Since I'd spent my entire software budget on Warp, I tried an early Slackware distro, and the rest is ... cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 00:45:35 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:45:35 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E97862F.7020408@gmail.com> On 11-10-13 17:36 , Alejandro Imass wrote: > > It's still one of the best written books in computing I have ever > read. Entertaining and easy to read, short and to the point. Anyone > can learn C with this book! Not me. After several tries with K&R2, "C By Example" by Noel Kalicharan was the one that made the concepts stick. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 01:05:14 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:05:14 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E978ACA.9080607@dinamis.com> On 10/13/2011 05:36 PM, Alejandro Imass wrote: > It's still one of the best written books in computing I have ever > read. Entertaining and easy to read, short and to the point. Anyone > can learn C with this book! My definitive C reference was Hugh Redelmeier. Hugs! :) And yes, the K&R book was pretty good, too. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 03:30:49 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:30:49 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie passed away In-Reply-To: <4E978ACA.9080607-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4E978ACA.9080607@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4E97ACE9.8050503@gmail.com> CBC finally came out with something: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/10/13/dennis-ritchie.html Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 12:24:08 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:24:08 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <20111013201943.GG15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> <20111013201943.GG15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4E9829E8.9030206@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > People wanted DOS compatibility more than they wanted multithreading. > OS/2 DOS compatibility was excellent. In fact, if necessary, you could even install an original DOS image or even CP/M-86. It also had far better DOS memory management than real DOS & Windows 3.x. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 12:29:11 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:29:11 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <20111013201943.GG15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> <20111013201943.GG15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4E982B17.8030107@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > NT could use multiple threads and cores just as well as OS/2. > In NT, ever try copying a file to a floppy and then trying to do anything else? Compared to OS/2, NT's multitasking was pathetic. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 14:35:01 2011 From: ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:35:01 -0400 Subject: OS/2 (was AMD Bulldozer vs core i7-2600) In-Reply-To: <4E982B17.8030107-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> <20111013201943.GG15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E982B17.8030107@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4E984895.8010408@gmail.com> On 14/10/11 8:29, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> NT could use multiple threads and cores just as well as OS/2. > > In NT, ever try copying a file to a floppy and then trying to do anything else? > Compared to OS/2, NT's multitasking was pathetic. Oh god! Don't remind me! Ever try formatting a disk in Win95? The difference between that and OS/2 was like the difference between night and day. Defragmenting a drive in XP was another joy. The defragmentation would stop when I scrolled the graphical drive map. Ivan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 15:38:52 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:38:52 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <4E9829E8.9030206-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> <20111013201943.GG15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E9829E8.9030206@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111014153852.GH15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 08:24:08AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >People wanted DOS compatibility more than they wanted multithreading. > > OS/2 DOS compatibility was excellent. In fact, if necessary, you > could even install an original DOS image or even CP/M-86. It also > had far better DOS memory management than real DOS & Windows 3.x. Actually OS/2 1.x's DOS compatibility was terrible. It wasn't until OS/2 2.x running on a 386 that DOS compatibility was any good. The 286 protected mode that OS/2 used was not suited for running DOS applications unless they were very well behaved. It could only run one DOS application at a time, and that program owned the machine and could crash the whole system. By the time 2.x came out (in 1992 I believe), windows had pretty much already won. Certainly Microsoft had stopped caring about OS/2 at all. I am not convinced IBM ever did care. "One of the more important consequences of the decision to support 286s was relatively poor compatibility with DOS applications. It was a miracle that OS/2 could run DOS applications at all, but the 286 limitations severely undermined both the compatibility and stability of OS/2. The 386 offered a Virtual-8086 mode (V86 mode) which made it possible to provide better compatibility without compromising stability, but that had to wait until OS/2 2.0; in the meantime, the V86 mode was used by Windows/386, DesqView, as well as several UNIX variants." according to http://www.os2museum.com/wp/?page_id=313 So windows 3.0 with the 386 enhanced mode was vastly better at running DOS programs it than OS/2 1.x. Especially since you could just exit windows and do it. Desqview and such also used the 386's V86 mode to do a much better job than OS/2 in 286 mode had any chance of doing. Why it took them so many years to get OS/2 2.0 done I have no idea. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 21:18:46 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:18:46 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <20111014153852.GH15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> <20111013201943.GG15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E9829E8.9030206@rogers.com> <20111014153852.GH15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4E98A736.8000004@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Actually OS/2 1.x's DOS compatibility was terrible. It wasn't until > OS/2 2.x running on a 386 that DOS compatibility was any good. The 286 > protected mode that OS/2 used was not suited for running DOS applications > unless they were very well behaved. It could only run one DOS application > at a time, and that program owned the machine and could crash the > whole system. > That was the case with OS/2 1.x, which was, prior to 1.3 mainly a product of Microsoft. As for running on the 286, IBM had this peculiar concept of delivering what they promised the customer. As they promised mulitasking etc. on the 286, that's what they delivered. However, as I mentioned, DOS support was excellent, even if it took until 2.0 to deliver it. Unlike on Windows, you could configure DOS memory management individually for each app, if needed. You could even configure it to deliver more usable space than you could with real DOS. If you were a developer, you could have images of various DOS versions to test with as well. Now, Windows 3.0 and OS/2 2.0 came out at roughly the same time, but there was simply no comparison in capability. OS/2 was much more stable, had better multitasking and could even run Windows as an application (which it was back in those days). BTW, I used to do 3rd level OS/2 support at IBM and worked on the team that developed standard desktop systems for IBM Canada. I also had to work with some apps on Windows 95 & NT. There were far more problems with apps, stability etc. on Windows, compared to OS/2 (essentially none). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 14 21:46:48 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:46:48 -0400 Subject: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it! In-Reply-To: <4E98A736.8000004-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> <20111013201943.GG15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E9829E8.9030206@rogers.com> <20111014153852.GH15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E98A736.8000004@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111014214648.GI15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 05:18:46PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > That was the case with OS/2 1.x, which was, prior to 1.3 mainly a > product of Microsoft. As for running on the 286, IBM had this > peculiar concept of delivering what they promised the customer. As > they promised mulitasking etc. on the 286, that's what they > delivered. However, as I mentioned, DOS support was excellent, even > if it took until 2.0 to deliver it. Unlike on Windows, you could > configure DOS memory management individually for each app, if > needed. You could even configure it to deliver more usable space > than you could with real DOS. If you were a developer, you could > have images of various DOS versions to test with as well. Now, > Windows 3.0 and OS/2 2.0 came out at roughly the same time, but > there was simply no comparison in capability. OS/2 was much more > stable, had better multitasking and could even run Windows as an > application (which it was back in those days). > > BTW, I used to do 3rd level OS/2 support at IBM and worked on the > team that developed standard desktop systems for IBM Canada. I also > had to work with some apps on Windows 95 & NT. There were far more > problems with apps, stability etc. on Windows, compared to OS/2 > (essentially none). OS/2 1.x only ran one DOS program at a time and not well. Released in 1988. OS/2 2.0 did much better, but was released in 1992. Windows 3.0 used the 386, could run multiple DOS programs quite well at the same time. Released in May 1990. About two years before OS/2 2.0. A very long time in the computer world. Windows 3.1 made it a bit better still, although not by a lot. But really, windows 3.0 had a two year headstart on OS/2 for running multiple DOS programs at the same time, and particularly well. OS/2 was also vastly more expensive. So yes OS/2 2.x was a much better system than Windows, although the GUI was an inconsistent mess in OS/2. OS/2 was more expensive, was multiple years later in having good DOS support and taking advantage of the 386. That combined with IBM not really seeming interested in pushing it to anyone (other than people wanting a GUI for 3270 applications at banks and insurance companies) and Microsoft certainly prefering to push windows resulted in the death of OS/2. OS/2 1.x was irrelevant, and OS/2 2.x was too late. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 15 00:36:04 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ancient OS wars [was Re: AMD Bulldozer vs. Intel i7-2600 -- I don't get it!] In-Reply-To: <20111014214648.GI15312-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1318524210.68696.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E971DAF.5050005@gmail.com> <4E9732B5.2050001@rogers.com> <20111013201943.GG15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E9829E8.9030206@rogers.com> <20111014153852.GH15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E98A736.8000004@rogers.com> <20111014214648.GI15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | OS/2 1.x only ran one DOS program at a time and not well. Released in | 1988. | | OS/2 2.0 did much better, but was released in 1992. | | Windows 3.0 used the 386, could run multiple DOS programs quite well at | the same time. Released in May 1990. About two years before OS/2 2.0. | A very long time in the computer world. | OS/2 1.x was irrelevant, and OS/2 2.x was too late. At the time I was in the UNIX world. I thought that UNIX should dominate the x86 market once the hardware was good enough (286 was OK, 386 was great) but the promises of OS/2 and then NT seemed to keep the market from trying UNIX. On the desktop x86, I don't think X got decent until somewhere around 1992 but if you really wanted GUI, x86 wasn't where it was at: - Mac, Amiga, Atari were all better, starting around 1985 - Sun etc were much more to my taste a couple of years later - in 1992 there were a bunch of very decent System V r4.2 distributions of UNIX for 386 (including Consensys that I helped produce, Esix that Evan liked, and even a good one from Dell (not limited to Dell hardware)). Also available from Commodore for high-end Amigas. They should have taken off. (There had been earlier decent UNIXes too.) No, the best OS didn't win. The platform with the mindshare won. As always. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 17:23:30 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:23:30 -0400 Subject: Grant Officer Message-ID: I was at the birthday party for Grant Officer last evening. Not sure how much of what I heard is considered fit for public consumption, but in summary the news was not very hopeful. A bit that is worth noting, one of the reasons Grant went to Thailand was to get certified for doing deep SCUBA dives, and the diving place required that Grant have top of the line travel medical insurance. So, Grant bought a policy that cost just over $300, a policy that ended up costing the insurance company over $200,000 . Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 12:45:07 2011 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:45:07 +0400 Subject: Embedded programming (not only) - job wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9AD1D3.5050105@gmail.com> Thanks God, not for me, this time. Please excuse me for messing up here with this subject. I myself work now as a physicist in Russia. The man I would like to help to is from Sri Lanka. I worked with him around 3 years ago, in Pickering. This is a young person. An engineer. When I worked with him (for around 3 years) that was his first job after a sort of higher education. Hence: He is young. Good or bad he has family (wife and at least one child). He is a very nice man. My boss loved to share all company secrets and ideas with him. He learns quickly. I was amazed. His main experience is with embedded programming. However, he has a sort of artistic approach to any problem. He could even design web sites as well and is willing to do that if needed. He knows basics on Linux. Please contact Karth: *Karthick Ganeshan, karthickganeshan-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 16 14:39:11 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:39:11 -0400 Subject: fetchmail and imap help Message-ID: <20111016143911.GA15255@watson-wilson.ca> My goal is to have fetchmail get email from a remote imap server (Dovecot) over ssh. Here's what I have done: In my remote account I created dovecot.conf: listen = 127.0.0.1 protocols = imap ssl = no mail_location = /var/spool/mail/%u listen = 127.0.0.1:1143 auth default { mechanisms=plain passdb pam { } userdb passwd { } user=root } base_dir = /home/neil/tmp/ login_dir = /home/neil login_user = neil login_chroot = no Install public ssh key to mail server. Add command to key before "ssh..." command="/usr/sbin/dovecot -c /home/neil/dovecot.conf --exec-mail imap",no-port-forwarding,no-agent-forwarding On client install procmail and fetchmail. Fetchmailrc: poll 127.0.0.1 with proto IMAP preauth ssh and port 1143: plugin "ssh check-mail > /dev/null" mda '/usr/bin/procmail -d %T' There seems to be some issues with deleting and fetching that are too random for me to pin down. fetchmail: IMAP> A0003 EXPUNGE fetchmail: IMAP< A0003 OK Expunge completed. fetchmail: IMAP> A0004 SEARCH UNSEEN fetchmail: IMAP< * SEARCH fetchmail: IMAP< A0004 OK Search completed (0.000 secs). 3 messages (3 seen) for neil at 127.0.0.1. skipping message neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org:1 not flushed skipping message neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org:2 not flushed skipping message neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org:3 not flushed fetchmail: IMAP> A0005 LOGOUT fetchmail: IMAP< * BYE Logging out fetchmail: IMAP< A0005 OK Logout completed. fetchmail: 6.3.18 querying 127.0.0.1 (protocol IMAP) at Sat 15 Oct 2011 03:45:23 PM EDT: poll completed fetchmail: normal termination, status 1 and this: neil at pluto:~$ fetchmail -a 3 messages for neil at 127.0.0.1. reading message neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org:1 of 3 (600 header octets) (8 body octets) flushed fetchmail: mail expunge mismatch (0 actual != 1 expected) fetchmail: client/server synchronization error while fetching from neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org fetchmail: Query status=7 (ERROR) Any and all suggestions welcome. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 15:30:11 2011 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:30:11 -0400 Subject: fetchmail and imap help In-Reply-To: <20111016143911.GA15255-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111016143911.GA15255@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On a general note, why not just copy the spool file locally and then inject it locally? Why spin up an IMAP server just to, in effect, copy /var/spool/mail/neil locally and then run procmail on it? On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > My goal is to have fetchmail get email from a remote imap server (Dovecot) > over ssh. Here's what I have done: > In my remote account I created dovecot.conf: > listen = 127.0.0.1 > protocols = imap > ssl = no > mail_location = /var/spool/mail/%u > listen = 127.0.0.1:1143 > Probably doesn't matter but you have two listen settings there. > auth default { > mechanisms=plain > passdb pam { > } userdb passwd { > } user=root > } base_dir = /home/neil/tmp/ > login_dir = /home/neil > login_user = neil > login_chroot = no > > Install public ssh key to mail server. Add command to key before > "ssh..." > command="/usr/sbin/dovecot -c /home/neil/dovecot.conf --exec-mail > imap",no-port-forwarding,no-agent-forwarding > On client install procmail and fetchmail. Fetchmailrc: > poll 127.0.0.1 with proto IMAP preauth ssh and port 1143: > plugin "ssh check-mail > /dev/null" > mda '/usr/bin/procmail -d %T' > > There seems to be some issues with deleting and fetching that are too > random for me to pin down. > fetchmail: IMAP> A0003 EXPUNGE > fetchmail: IMAP< A0003 OK Expunge completed. > fetchmail: IMAP> A0004 SEARCH UNSEEN > fetchmail: IMAP< * SEARCH > fetchmail: IMAP< A0004 OK Search completed (0.000 secs). > 3 messages (3 seen) for neil at 127.0.0.1. > skipping message neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org:1 not flushed > skipping message neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org:2 not flushed > skipping message neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org:3 not flushed > fetchmail: IMAP> A0005 LOGOUT > fetchmail: IMAP< * BYE Logging out > fetchmail: IMAP< A0005 OK Logout completed. > fetchmail: 6.3.18 querying 127.0.0.1 (protocol IMAP) at Sat 15 Oct 2011 > 03:45:23 PM EDT: poll completed > fetchmail: normal termination, status 1 > > and this: > neil at pluto:~$ fetchmail -a > 3 messages for neil at 127.0.0.1. > reading message neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org:1 of 3 (600 header octets) (8 body octets) > flushed > fetchmail: mail expunge mismatch (0 actual != 1 expected) > fetchmail: client/server synchronization error while fetching from > neil-savSHZN5Fh8qMp+WYRx65w at public.gmane.org > fetchmail: Query status=7 (ERROR) > > Any and all suggestions welcome. > It seems like there are a ton of automation steps in there without intermediate testing. Do all the constituent parts work individually? For instance, if you ssh into the remote host by hand, forwarding port 1143, and then run dovecot by hand, does that work with fetchmail? How about other IMAP clients? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 17 17:48:45 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: (OT) great local talks Message-ID: I know some TLUGers are interested in these things so I hope you will forgive this non-LINUX posting. ============================= The Royal Canadian Institute puts on talks about science each Sunday afternoon that are (1) by experts in their field (2) aimed at an educated but non-expert audience Here's a list of this Fall's lectures: http://www.yorku.ca/rci/Site/Fall_11.html I missed the one yesterday. I would have liked to attend: Leonardo and Steve: How Fibinacci beat Apple to Market by 800 Years. TLUGer Alan Rocker is quite active in RCI. I'm a life member but not that active. ============================= The Gairdner Foundation gives out awards in medical sciences every year. These turn out to be good predictors of who will later win Nobel Prize (for example, two of this year's Nobel Laureates had earlier won Gairdners). Each year they run a symposium with award winners and others. It is several days long and open to the public. I've attended a few times and learned a lot. Not all lectures are suitable for non-researchers. This year's symposium almost completely overlaps FSOSS :-( Wednesday Oct 26 is a day-long symposium on diabetes. This was the topic of an earlier symposium that I found eye-opening. The concept of insulin resistance and obesity and other metabolic problems seems really important. My guess is that these are going to be a bit hard to follow. Thursday's symposium is by the awardees. I think that they will be understandable to a wider audience. Friday's symposium is about immunology and inflamation. Interestingly, diabetes is probably an immunological disease. Notes: - all are free - at least the first symposium requires (free) registration - all these are on the U of T downtown campus - There are other events at other universities, but not nearly as much -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 19:41:15 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:41:15 -0400 Subject: Grant Officer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another update via Jim Mercer: -------------------------------------------- Grant passed on today at around 15:00. i don't have much detail to post, except that it was more sudden than was expected, and some family was at his side. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 18 20:01:09 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:01:09 -0700 Subject: Grant Officer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9DDB05.3050301@alteeve.com> On 10/18/2011 12:41 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Another update via Jim Mercer: > > -------------------------------------------- > > Grant passed on today at around 15:00. > > i don't have much detail to post, except that it was more sudden than > was expected, and some family was at his side. I'm really sorry to hear that. Condolences to his family. -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "At what point did we forget that the Space Shuttle was, essentially, a program that strapped human beings to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 03:50:17 2011 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:50:17 -0400 Subject: Grant Officer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On October 18, 2011 15:41:15 you wrote: > Another update via Jim Mercer: > > -------------------------------------------- > > Grant passed on today at around 15:00. > > i don't have much detail to post, except that it was more sudden than > was expected, and some family was at his side. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > My thoughts are with his family and close friends at this moment. They have my deepest sympathies. -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 19 21:04:15 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:04:15 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > The central point in all of this is that ANY OS that is not properly > signed in Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) will not be > allowed to boot. In other words, NO Linux will run (unless the > hardware vendor has included a signature for YOUR Linux distro.), > ditto old versions of Microsoft Windows, ditto other free OSs such as > FreeBSD. The reason the hardware vendors would add UEFI is because > they will not be able to use the Windows 8 logo without UEFI. Bottom > line, this is Microsoft under the cover of "security" attacking Linux, > other free OSs and old versions of Windows. The "shrill paranoia" seems to be giving way to somewhat more realistic analyses. The following one presents things rather more interestingly than the "oh, no, the sky is falling" thing. http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/6503.html I judge from this that what's likely to actually happen is rather different from the initial "shrill paranoia" theorized approaches, which would have generated a pretty enormous potential for self-inflicted DOS attacks. Notably, as long as the BIOS provides an option of going around the "check the sigs" logic, which is *very* much in the interests of motherboard vendors, it shouldn't be very difficult to avoid having a problem. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 02:11:13 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:11:13 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111020021113.GB22953@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 05:04:15PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote > I judge from this that what's likely to actually happen is rather > different from the initial "shrill paranoia" theorized approaches, > which would have generated a pretty enormous potential for > self-inflicted DOS attacks. > > Notably, as long as the BIOS provides an option of going around the > "check the sigs" logic, which is *very* much in the interests of > motherboard vendors, it shouldn't be very difficult to avoid having a > problem. I seem to remember several years ago that it was fashionable for BIOS to have a "do not write to boot/ sector or partition table" setting. I had to turn it off before I could install linux. Then I turned it back on after the install. Whatever happened to that? It was so much simpler than UEFI. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 14:23:39 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:23:39 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: <20111020021113.GB22953-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20111020021113.GB22953@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111020142339.GA30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:11:13PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 05:04:15PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote > > > I judge from this that what's likely to actually happen is rather > > different from the initial "shrill paranoia" theorized approaches, > > which would have generated a pretty enormous potential for > > self-inflicted DOS attacks. > > > > Notably, as long as the BIOS provides an option of going around the > > "check the sigs" logic, which is *very* much in the interests of > > motherboard vendors, it shouldn't be very difficult to avoid having a > > problem. > > I seem to remember several years ago that it was fashionable for BIOS > to have a "do not write to boot/ sector or partition table" setting. I > had to turn it off before I could install linux. Then I turned it back > on after the install. Whatever happened to that? It was so much > simpler than UEFI. Well it only protected the boot sector when using BIOS calls. Once DOS was replaced by a real OS with native drivers for the disk controller, the BIOS no longer had a say. It used to be considered a protection from DOS boot sector viruses. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 14:50:28 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? Message-ID: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work.? One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things.? So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 14:55:20 2011 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:55:20 -0300 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I do use Arch at home/work (laptop.. yeah I care it with me at work too).. and as workstation (just work) I'm using Debian. br =================================================== Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha - Kalib Graduando em Sistemas de Informa??es - EST?CIO/FIC Usu?rio Linux #407564 | Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 Fortaleza - Cear? - Brazil Celular: +55 085 87620983 Certifica??es: ITIL V3 | CSM Minha Pessoa: Blog | Linkedin Projetos: Tux-CE | Archlinux-br | Chakra | KDE Brasil | TLUG | PUG-CE =================================================== Proteja meu endere?o como estou protegendo o seu. N?o revele e-mail dos correspondentes: use Cco (Copia Carbonada Oculta). Retire os endere?os antes de reenviar. Dificulte assim a dissemina??o de v?rus e spam. On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work. One disadvantage is that I > can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually > involves distro specific things. So, I want to find out Redhat's market > percentage in GTA. > > -- > > William > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 14:54:45 2011 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:54:45 +0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA03635.4020501@gmail.com> On 20/10/11 06:50 PM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work. One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things. So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. > Oh, I am not in GTA, but from there... Last time in Pickering I used CentOs. Now, in Russia, I still use it. Not that it is better in anyway but because I know it better. So, all the computers we have in our research lab I work in Russia at university are with Centos. Recentely, I started to work for a private high school. I mounted CentOs there as well ;) Schoolboys and schoolgirls do not even seem to care what kind of operating system is there. They just use them and even, in some cases, are able to figure out better than myself how to change configuration ;) zb. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 15:00:35 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:00:35 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA03793.7030304@rogers.com> William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work. One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things. So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. > > I use openSUSE both at home & work. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 15:01:59 2011 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:01:59 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <4EA03635.4020501-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EA03635.4020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: Scientific Linux gets my vote now Dave Cramer Visible Assets Inc. www.visibleassets.com On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > On 20/10/11 06:50 PM, William Park wrote: > > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work.? One disadvantage is that I > can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually > involves distro specific things.? So, I want to find out Redhat's market > percentage in GTA. > > Oh, I am not in GTA, but from there... > > Last time in Pickering I used CentOs. Now, in Russia, I still use it. Not > that it is better in anyway but because I know it better. So, all the > computers we have in our research lab I work in Russia at university are > with Centos. Recentely, I started to work for a private high school. I > mounted CentOs there as well ;) Schoolboys and schoolgirls do not even seem > to care what kind of operating system is there. They just use them and even, > in some cases, are able to figure out better than myself how to change > configuration ;) > > zb. > > > > > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 15:15:19 2011 From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:15:19 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ubuntu and Debian on home machines with Ubuntu on my station at work and nearly all servers running RHEL or CentOS. -jason On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work. One disadvantage is that I > can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually > involves distro specific things. So, I want to find out Redhat's market > percentage in GTA. > > -- > > William > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vic-2vUEnoANFF8dnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 15:40:15 2011 From: vic-2vUEnoANFF8dnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org (Vic Gedris) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:40:15 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Red Hat, with a tiny bit of SuSE sprinkled here and there. -Vic Vic Gedris - http://vic.gedris.org Toronto, Ontario, Canada - http://www.junctiontriangle.ca On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work.? One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things.? So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 15:43:13 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:43:13 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111020154313.GB30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:40:15AM -0400, Vic Gedris wrote: > Red Hat, with a tiny bit of SuSE sprinkled here and there. > > -Vic > > Vic Gedris - http://vic.gedris.org > Toronto, Ontario, Canada - http://www.junctiontriangle.ca > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work.? One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things.? So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. Debian, more Debian, and yet more Debian, and then somewhat modified Debian on our products. Servers and desktops. I think we have one user that runs fedora, and a couple of VMs running Centos due to some commercial software only supporting RHEL and being very badly written. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 15:43:32 2011 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:43:32 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111020154332.GA28067@amber> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 07:50:28AM -0700, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Gentoo at home, work, and on servers, except for Debian for an old nslu2. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:05:06 2011 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:05:06 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111020160506.GA20093@yam.witteman.ca> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 07:50:28AM -0700, William Park wrote: >Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Debian across the board; servers, workstations, home, laptops. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:03:52 2011 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:03:52 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA04668.2060707@gmail.com> On 10/20/2011 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work. One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things. So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. > Debian at home (via. Linux Mint Debian Edition), Debian at work (currently) via Ubuntu Server. With legacy Redhat and SLES still lingering. -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From david.vangeest-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:09:27 2011 From: david.vangeest-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (David van Geest) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:09:27 -0700 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 7:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Linux Mint on my home desktop and work laptop. CentOS or RHEL on work servers. -- David van Geest http://davidvg.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:25:50 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:25:50 -0400 Subject: Grant Officer's obituary Message-ID: Grant Officer's obituary : http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/thestar/obituary.aspx?n=grant-alan-officer&pid=154204889 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:28:50 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: | From: Jason Shaw | Ubuntu and Debian on home machines with Ubuntu on my station at work and | nearly all servers running RHEL or CentOS. I thought that the RHEL license made it hard to run both RHEL and CentOS at a site. Note: this is a half-memory, I could easily be wrong. The idea was that RHEL always involves support and they don't want to have you pay for one machine but get, in effect, support for a bunch. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:32:19 2011 From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:32:19 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not entirely sure about how that all works, but we use RHEL for production and CentOS for intranet and testing purposes. -jason On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:28 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Jason Shaw > > | Ubuntu and Debian on home machines with Ubuntu on my station at work and > | nearly all servers running RHEL or CentOS. > > I thought that the RHEL license made it hard to run both RHEL and > CentOS at a site. Note: this is a half-memory, I could easily be > wrong. > > The idea was that RHEL always involves support and they don't want to > have you pay for one machine but get, in effect, support for a bunch. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.vangeest-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:34:18 2011 From: david.vangeest-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (David van Geest) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:34:18 -0700 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 9:28 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Jason Shaw > > | Ubuntu and Debian on home machines with Ubuntu on my station at work and > | nearly all servers running RHEL or CentOS. > > I thought that the RHEL license made it hard to run both RHEL and > CentOS at a site. ?Note: this is a half-memory, I could easily be > wrong. > > The idea was that RHEL always involves support and they don't want to > have you pay for one machine but get, in effect, support for a bunch. I'm not too sure about the licensing, but we run CentOS locally and RHEL on our Rackspace machines. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From voidpointer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:48:58 2011 From: voidpointer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Nicolaides) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:48:58 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At home, on my main desktop, I was running Debian but then switched to Ubuntu (Xubuntu to be exact). My one laptop is currently running Fedora but I am going to wipe it and install Slackware when I get the chance (or maybe I'll try Arch again...) My other, work laptop is running Xubuntu as well. My desktop at work is a Mac Pro running Lion...(I work at an advertising firm and have to support the Macs with Remote Desktop). As far as distributions go I have run a smattering of everything from RedHat 6 when I first tried Linux back in '98 to Debian for a very long time to trying out Fedora, Mint, Arch, Slackware and Ubuntu. I am very proud to say that none of my personal computers run a Windows OS. Cheers, Jason On 20 October 2011 12:34, David van Geest wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 9:28 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier > wrote: > > | From: Jason Shaw > > > > | Ubuntu and Debian on home machines with Ubuntu on my station at work > and > > | nearly all servers running RHEL or CentOS. > > > > I thought that the RHEL license made it hard to run both RHEL and > > CentOS at a site. Note: this is a half-memory, I could easily be > > wrong. > > > > The idea was that RHEL always involves support and they don't want to > > have you pay for one machine but get, in effect, support for a bunch. > > I'm not too sure about the licensing, but we run CentOS locally and > RHEL on our Rackspace machines. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- "Surround yourself with all you own, Work your fingers to the bone, And happiness evades you still..." Assemblage 23, "I am the Rain" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:52:55 2011 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Work and home are one and the same. I use Mandriva. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:54:21 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:54:21 -0700 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA0523D.1030901@alteeve.com> On 10/20/2011 09:28 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Jason Shaw > > | Ubuntu and Debian on home machines with Ubuntu on my station at work and > | nearly all servers running RHEL or CentOS. > > I thought that the RHEL license made it hard to run both RHEL and > CentOS at a site. Note: this is a half-memory, I could easily be > wrong. > > The idea was that RHEL always involves support and they don't want to > have you pay for one machine but get, in effect, support for a bunch. We're a Red Hat reseller and there is no restrictions in their licensing or support that would prevent mixed environments. I used RHEL for customers who want RH support, CentOS on all other servers/clusters and Fedora on my workstations and laptops. As an aside; I started my Linux career with Red Hat, switched to Debian with Red Hat 8 (original), switched to Ubuntu on laptop/desktop in '05, then switched back to RHEL/CentOS + Fedora a few years ago with my change in focus to clustering. Debian/Ubuntu and EL/Fedora are both excellent distros with their own quirks and benefits. You should choose which you want to use based on your needs, not based on what everyone else is using. -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "At what point did we forget that the Space Shuttle was, essentially, a program that strapped human beings to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 16:58:44 2011 From: martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Martin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:58:44 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ubuntu 10.04 LTS on most of the office workstations (3 out of 5; the other two are Windows or dual boot Ubuntu/Windows); Ubuntu 11.10 on a home laptop; various other virtual Linux desktops just for fun. j On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:00:21 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:00:21 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA053A5.90609@rogers.com> Jason Nicolaides wrote: > I am very proud to say that none of my personal computers run a > Windows OS. I only have Windows on my notebook, as it came with it. However, most of the time it runs Linux. All my other personal computers are Windows free. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:01:55 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:01:55 -0700 Subject: How to slave a partial reverse-DNS entry Message-ID: Hey all, I've got a bit of a confusing issue in setting up my DNS masters/slaves. I've got a DNS server that I need to slave to a master I don't have full control over. The master has records for me subdomain, as well as many others. e.g. it has records for sub1.mydomain.com sub2.mydomain.com sub3.mydomain.com My slave is setup properly to slave the "sub2.mydomain.com" zone, which works fine. However, I'm having issues getting or configuring the reverse records. The problem is that my servers only have records in 10.3.55, while the master has records that span the entire 10.0.0.0/8 subnet, and appears to have one large reverse DNS entry for them all (10.in-addr.arpa). I have no need for the ENTIRE /8 set of reverse records. Is there a way to have my slave only grab the 10.3.55.0/24 (55.3.10.in-addr.arpa) without any special configuration needed on the master? Alternately, can I have BIND build/update the reverse-DNS automatically based on when sub2.mydomain.com re-syncs without needing to pull the reverse-record from the master? Thanks, Tyler -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:04:13 2011 From: martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Martin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:04:13 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Forgot to mention my first ever Linux installation: Slackware on a 4MB (four megabyte) '386. It took me 18 hours and four restarts to compile Apache. Still runs though it's now on a '486 with 16 megs. j On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:58 PM, John Martin wrote: > Ubuntu 10.04 LTS on most of the office workstations (3 out of 5; the > other two are Windows or dual boot Ubuntu/Windows); Ubuntu 11.10 on a > home laptop; various other virtual Linux desktops just for fun. > > > j > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: >> Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:06:43 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:06:43 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111020170643.GC30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 01:04:13PM -0400, John Martin wrote: > Forgot to mention my first ever Linux installation: Slackware on a 4MB > (four megabyte) '386. It took me 18 hours and four restarts to compile > Apache. Still runs though it's now on a '486 with 16 megs. My first was SLS 1.03 (slackware hadn't been invented yet) on a 486DX50 with 8MB ram from more floppies than I want to remember. 2400 baud modem wasn't the fastest way to download disk images. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:13:44 2011 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:13:44 -0300 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <20111020170643.GC30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111020170643.GC30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Strange... Arch is a Canadian distro and I'm the only one in here using it? hehehe And I'm not Canadian, also not in Canada right now.. Living in Brazil. I'll only return to Toronto in 2 or 3 years. I thought Arch was a litle bit popular in there. ;] =================================================== Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha - Kalib Graduando em Sistemas de Informa??es - EST?CIO/FIC Usu?rio Linux #407564 | Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 Fortaleza - Cear? - Brazil Celular: +55 085 87620983 Certifica??es: ITIL V3 | CSM Minha Pessoa: Blog | Linkedin Projetos: Tux-CE | Archlinux-br | Chakra | KDE Brasil | TLUG | PUG-CE =================================================== Proteja meu endere?o como estou protegendo o seu. N?o revele e-mail dos correspondentes: use Cco (Copia Carbonada Oculta). Retire os endere?os antes de reenviar. Dificulte assim a dissemina??o de v?rus e spam. On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 01:04:13PM -0400, John Martin wrote: > > Forgot to mention my first ever Linux installation: Slackware on a 4MB > > (four megabyte) '386. It took me 18 hours and four restarts to compile > > Apache. Still runs though it's now on a '486 with 16 megs. > > My first was SLS 1.03 (slackware hadn't been invented yet) on a 486DX50 > with 8MB ram from more floppies than I want to remember. 2400 baud > modem wasn't the fastest way to download disk images. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:19:55 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Updates: grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence Message-ID: Every once in a while, I run MS Windows. Usually just to do updates. Some kind of compulsion like obsessive hand washing. I rebooted my Fedora 15 desktop machine because of Fedora updates, so I took the opportunity to update the Vista that came with the machine. Infelicities that I remember: - Microsoft updates are slow and require a reboot - upon reboot, more updates appear. Why? No explanation given (I could invent some reasons). They too require a reboot. - one of the updates prompts for permission to install (ie9, I think). But it puts the prompt UNDER the Windows Update window so I let the machine sit there invisibly waiting for me for quite some time until I moved the Windows Update window and could see it. DUMB. - several other non-Microsoft things clamour to be updated and sometimes require reboots: java, Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader, ATI Video driver - I have to "agree" to multi-page terms at several junctures - I have no clue about which upgrades can be done in parallel and which might step on each others toes. So I do this serially. - HP Updates tool says I should update the Intel Matrix driver (for the hard drives). It stalls during download (0 bytes downloaded). Perhaps it is a firewall setting, but I get no help as to what the problem is. (Trying again, after all the other updates, seems to work. No idea why.) - At virtually every step, Vista says that a program is doing something serious, and do I want to let it? - Firefox 3.x doesn't automatically upgrade, so I asked it to check for updates. It then asked to update to 3.6.y, I said OK, and it did. After that, it asked if I wanted to update to the latest version. I then had to download and run an executable that took several steps. - Microsoft Security Essentials is now nagging me about an update. I guess that means that it isn't updated by Windows Update. No, it turns out that it was already updated but the notification thingee hadn't noticed. Updating Fedora is much easier. BTW, I recently updated my iPad to iOS 5. Even that was more awkward than Fedora updates. Typing in my WPA key again, through the touchscreen, was particularly annoying. And yes, I still speak English. Of course I had to fire up a Windows box to run iTunes to do the update. In contrast, the HP TouchPad update I did yesterday was much easier. I didn't need to tether it, only one reboot, taken care of automatically. Ubuntu updates are as easy as Fedora updates except in the odd case where a config file is being changed. Two bad things happen: - the update hangs on a prompt (that's against Red Hat rules) so unattended updates don't work - the system wants the operator to specify what it should do with the conflicting config files. I am usually unprepared to answer questions about obscure programs' obscure config files. I admit that doing better safely is hard. CentOS updates are as easy as Fedora updates. But for much of this year, CentOS didn't issue any updates -- somewhat worrying. They are back at it now. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:26:14 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:26:14 -0700 Subject: Updates: grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My personal peeve is when I step away from a windows 7 machine for a bit, and come back to find it rebooted due to a background update. More annoying is when I'm in a game and windows yanks me out to say "windows needs to reboot in order to apply an update" ... Grrrr On Oct 20, 2011 10:20 AM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier" wrote: > Every once in a while, I run MS Windows. Usually just to do updates. > Some kind of compulsion like obsessive hand washing. > > I rebooted my Fedora 15 desktop machine because of Fedora updates, so I > took the opportunity to update the Vista that came with the machine. > > Infelicities that I remember: > > - Microsoft updates are slow and require a reboot > > - upon reboot, more updates appear. Why? No explanation given (I > could invent some reasons). They too require a reboot. > > - one of the updates prompts for permission to install (ie9, I think). > But it puts the prompt UNDER the Windows Update window so I let the > machine sit there invisibly waiting for me for quite some time until > I moved the Windows Update window and could see it. DUMB. > > - several other non-Microsoft things clamour to be updated and > sometimes require reboots: java, Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader, ATI > Video driver > > - I have to "agree" to multi-page terms at several junctures > > - I have no clue about which upgrades can be done in parallel and > which might step on each others toes. So I do this serially. > > - HP Updates tool says I should update the Intel Matrix driver (for > the hard drives). It stalls during download (0 bytes downloaded). > Perhaps it is a firewall setting, but I get no help as to what the > problem is. (Trying again, after all the other updates, seems to > work. No idea why.) > > - At virtually every step, Vista says that a program is doing > something serious, and do I want to let it? > > - Firefox 3.x doesn't automatically upgrade, so I asked it to check > for updates. It then asked to update to 3.6.y, I said OK, and it > did. After that, it asked if I wanted to update to the latest > version. I then had to download and run an executable that took > several steps. > > - Microsoft Security Essentials is now nagging me about an update. I > guess that means that it isn't updated by Windows Update. No, it > turns out that it was already updated but the notification thingee > hadn't noticed. > > Updating Fedora is much easier. > > BTW, I recently updated my iPad to iOS 5. Even that was more awkward > than Fedora updates. Typing in my WPA key again, through the > touchscreen, was particularly annoying. And yes, I still speak > English. Of course I had to fire up a Windows box to run iTunes to do > the update. > > In contrast, the HP TouchPad update I did yesterday was much easier. I > didn't need to tether it, only one reboot, taken care of > automatically. > > Ubuntu updates are as easy as Fedora updates except in the odd case > where a config file is being changed. Two bad things happen: > > - the update hangs on a prompt (that's against Red Hat rules) > so unattended updates don't work > > - the system wants the operator to specify what it should do with the > conflicting config files. I am usually unprepared to answer > questions about obscure programs' obscure config files. > > I admit that doing better safely is hard. > > CentOS updates are as easy as Fedora updates. But for much of this > year, CentOS didn't issue any updates -- somewhat worrying. They are > back at it now. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 17:40:12 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:40:12 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I use PCLinuxOS at home, and a mixture of RHEL/SLES at work for servers and workstations. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work.? One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things.? So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. > > -- > > William > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:00:28 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:00:28 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111020170643.GC30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111020180028.GD30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 02:13:44PM -0300, Marcelo Cavalcante wrote: > Strange... > Arch is a Canadian distro and I'm the only one in here using it? hehehe And > I'm not Canadian, also not in Canada right now.. Living in Brazil. I'll only > return to Toronto in 2 or 3 years. > > I thought Arch was a litle bit popular in there. I have never gotten the impression it was popular anywhere. I don't even get the point if it as a distribution to be honest. But of course that is true of Gentoo as well. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:05:52 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:05:52 -0400 Subject: Resume from Sleep/Hibernation Message-ID: Hey all, Before I begin, let me say that I've already scoured the Internet for possible solutions, but nothing appears relevant. I've noticed an issue with sleep and hibernation in both Kubuntu 11.10 and PCLinuxOS 2011.09. Initiating sleep and/or hibernation works correctly, but when I resume from either one, rather than being prompted for my password [as was the default previously], the KDM login screen appears. So, it seems that, somehow, KDE crashed during the restore. The behaviour occurs on my Acer Aspire One D250 net book, Compaq Presario V6000 note book, and my girlfriend's Lenovo note book. I've not yet seen it occur on any desktop, but as I haven't had time to test it, I'm not sure if it's related to KDE or the hardware. Sleep/Hibernation worked flawlessly in previous versions of both distributions. I've tested other distributions with KDE [Fedora, openSUSE, RHEL], as well as GNOME [Fedora, RHEL, SLES, Ubuntu] and XFCE [PCLinuxOS], and haven't seen this issue appear for those environments. I've tested the behaviour when running no applications whatsoever as well as running multiple different applications, and it seems to make no difference. When I run either distro through a VM at work, sleep, hibernate, and restore all occur without any issue. I'm not overly certain whether this is a valid test, though, given that the distro doesn't [as far as I am aware] interact directly with the hardware. I'm not overly familiar with the workings of KDE, so if anyone has any pointers to information, or ways I can troubleshoot this, it would be greatly appreciated. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:09:46 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:09:46 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If memory serves me correctly, my first distro was Mandrake. I remember spending HOURS trying to figure out how things worked at the time. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 13:04, John Martin wrote: > Forgot to mention my first ever Linux installation: Slackware on a 4MB > (four megabyte) '386. It took me 18 hours and four restarts to compile > Apache. Still runs though it's now on a '486 with 16 megs. > > > j > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:58 PM, John Martin wrote: >> Ubuntu 10.04 LTS on most of the office workstations (3 out of 5; the >> other two are Windows or dual boot Ubuntu/Windows); Ubuntu 11.10 on a >> home laptop; various other virtual Linux desktops just for fun. >> >> >> j >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: >>> Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:13:45 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:13:45 -0400 Subject: Updates: grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA064D9.1040700@rogers.com> Tyler Aviss wrote: > More annoying is when I'm in a game and windows yanks me out to say > "windows needs to reboot in order to apply an update" ... Grrrr I believe that happened to Steve Ballmer, when he was in the middle of a presentation. I also find Windows, in general, to be very annoying, but it's much worse in W7. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:14:07 2011 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:14:07 -0300 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <20111020180028.GD30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111020170643.GC30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111020180028.GD30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 02:13:44PM -0300, Marcelo Cavalcante wrote: > > I have never gotten the impression it was popular anywhere. I don't > even get the point if it as a distribution to be honest. > > But of course that is true of Gentoo as well. > Strange... Check these links: http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/10-best-linux-distros-for-2011-704584 Even in here Arch is getting more and more popular every year. =================================================== Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha - Kalib Graduando em Sistemas de Informa??es - EST?CIO/FIC Usu?rio Linux #407564 | Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 Fortaleza - Cear? - Brazil Celular: +55 085 87620983 Certifica??es: ITIL V3 | CSM Minha Pessoa: Blog | Linkedin Projetos: Tux-CE | Archlinux-br | Chakra | KDE Brasil | TLUG | PUG-CE =================================================== Proteja meu endere?o como estou protegendo o seu. N?o revele e-mail dos correspondentes: use Cco (Copia Carbonada Oculta). Retire os endere?os antes de reenviar. Dificulte assim a dissemina??o de v?rus e spam. On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 02:13:44PM -0300, Marcelo Cavalcante wrote: > > Strange... > > Arch is a Canadian distro and I'm the only one in here using it? hehehe > And > > I'm not Canadian, also not in Canada right now.. Living in Brazil. I'll > only > > return to Toronto in 2 or 3 years. > > > > I thought Arch was a litle bit popular in there. > > I have never gotten the impression it was popular anywhere. I don't > even get the point if it as a distribution to be honest. > > But of course that is true of Gentoo as well. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From voidpointer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:16:32 2011 From: voidpointer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Nicolaides) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:16:32 -0400 Subject: Resume from Sleep/Hibernation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I seem to remember there being a problem with Intel graphics and OpenGL screen savers causing this issue. When I was running Kubuntu I had to switch to a different screensaver because of it. Cheers, Jason On 20 October 2011 14:05, Alex Gabriel wrote: > Hey all, > > Before I begin, let me say that I've already scoured the Internet for > possible solutions, but nothing appears relevant. > > I've noticed an issue with sleep and hibernation in both Kubuntu 11.10 > and PCLinuxOS 2011.09. Initiating sleep and/or hibernation works > correctly, but when I resume from either one, rather than being > prompted for my password [as was the default previously], the KDM > login screen appears. So, it seems that, somehow, KDE crashed during > the restore. > > The behaviour occurs on my Acer Aspire One D250 net book, Compaq > Presario V6000 note book, and my girlfriend's Lenovo note book. I've > not yet seen it occur on any desktop, but as I haven't had time to > test it, I'm not sure if it's related to KDE or the hardware. > > Sleep/Hibernation worked flawlessly in previous versions of both > distributions. I've tested other distributions with KDE [Fedora, > openSUSE, RHEL], as well as GNOME [Fedora, RHEL, SLES, Ubuntu] and > XFCE [PCLinuxOS], and haven't seen this issue appear for those > environments. > > I've tested the behaviour when running no applications whatsoever as > well as running multiple different applications, and it seems to make > no difference. When I run either distro through a VM at work, sleep, > hibernate, and restore all occur without any issue. I'm not overly > certain whether this is a valid test, though, given that the distro > doesn't [as far as I am aware] interact directly with the hardware. > > I'm not overly familiar with the workings of KDE, so if anyone has any > pointers to information, or ways I can troubleshoot this, it would be > greatly appreciated. > > Alex Gabriel > Dimensia Design Studio > alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- "Surround yourself with all you own, Work your fingers to the bone, And happiness evades you still..." Assemblage 23, "I am the Rain" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:31:37 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:31:37 -0400 Subject: Resume from Sleep/Hibernation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recall having that problem as well, but that was with KDE 3.5, and it's only happened with the new versions mentioned. I've used OpenGL screensavers for a while, and never had a problem. I did come across this, however, just after I posted the message, so this may be a known bug. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=284045 Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 14:16, Jason Nicolaides wrote: > I seem to remember there being a problem with Intel graphics and OpenGL > screen savers causing this issue.? When I was running Kubuntu I had to > switch to a different screensaver because of it. > > Cheers, > Jason > > On 20 October 2011 14:05, Alex Gabriel > wrote: >> >> Hey all, >> >> Before I begin, let me say that I've already scoured the Internet for >> possible solutions, but nothing appears relevant. >> >> I've noticed an issue with sleep and hibernation in both Kubuntu 11.10 >> and PCLinuxOS 2011.09. ?Initiating sleep and/or hibernation works >> correctly, but when I resume from either one, rather than being >> prompted for my password [as was the default previously], the KDM >> login screen appears. ?So, it seems that, somehow, KDE crashed during >> the restore. >> >> The behaviour occurs on my Acer Aspire One D250 net book, Compaq >> Presario V6000 note book, and my girlfriend's Lenovo note book. ?I've >> not yet seen it occur on any desktop, but as I haven't had time to >> test it, I'm not sure if it's related to KDE or the hardware. >> >> Sleep/Hibernation worked flawlessly in previous versions of both >> distributions. ?I've tested other distributions with KDE [Fedora, >> openSUSE, RHEL], as well as GNOME [Fedora, RHEL, SLES, Ubuntu] and >> XFCE [PCLinuxOS], and haven't seen this issue appear for those >> environments. >> >> I've tested the behaviour when running no applications whatsoever as >> well as running multiple different applications, and it seems to make >> no difference. ?When I run either distro through a VM at work, sleep, >> hibernate, and restore all occur without any issue. ?I'm not overly >> certain whether this is a valid test, though, given that the distro >> doesn't [as far as I am aware] interact directly with the hardware. >> >> I'm not overly familiar with the workings of KDE, so if anyone has any >> pointers to information, or ways I can troubleshoot this, it would be >> greatly appreciated. >> >> Alex Gabriel >> Dimensia Design Studio >> alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > -- > "Surround yourself with all you own, > Work your fingers to the bone, > And happiness evades you still..." > Assemblage 23, "I am the Rain" > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 18:42:29 2011 From: gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:42:29 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA06B95.6000504@teksavvy.com> On 10/20/2011 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work. One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things. So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. > Home and work are the same. Slackware. -- Glen Strom gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 19:55:59 2011 From: hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Burhan Hanoglu) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319140559.67348.YahooMailNeo@web113812.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Debian; everywhere... Regards, Burhan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tom-P9LCsnxcr+NWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:08:34 2011 From: tom-P9LCsnxcr+NWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Tom Low-Shang) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:08:34 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111020200834.GC6846@goblin.lowshang.com> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 07:50:28AM -0700, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Debian. Servers, workstations, embedded systems, everywhere. -- Tom Low-Shang 416 857 7013 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 20 20:11:43 2011 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:11:43 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: CentOS for servers (don't get the CentOS obsession) - would prefer debian. I am trying a couple for desktop, but most likely going for the new Xubuntu. Honestly, at home I've been running MacOS for a while. Renata Rocha http://renata.org On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work.? One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things.? So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. > > -- > > William > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 00:11:12 2011 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:11:12 -0400 Subject: How to slave a partial reverse-DNS entry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111021001112.GK1867@adb.ca> Tyler Aviss wrote: > I have no need for the ENTIRE /8 set of reverse records. Is there a > way to have my slave only grab the 10.3.55.0/24 (55.3.10.in-addr.arpa) > without any special configuration needed on the master? With traditional DNS software, you'd need there to be a SOA record at 55.3.10.in-addr.arpa for you to be able to AXFR just that set of records. If the only SOA is at 10.in-addr.arpa then it'll barf trying to grab just a subset of that. With a SOA, you also need NS records, and if there are any other slaves they'd need to be configured to secondary the new subdomain in addition to the existing parent. Odds are that unless you're on dialup, or there are records the master doesn't want you to see, just copying the whole zone may be less trouble than trying to divvy it up. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 03:41:38 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:41:38 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: <20111020142339.GA30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20111020021113.GB22953@waltdnes.org> <20111020142339.GA30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111021034138.GA24960@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:23:39AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Well it only protected the boot sector when using BIOS calls. Once DOS > was replaced by a real OS with native drivers for the disk controller, > the BIOS no longer had a say. It used to be considered a protection > from DOS boot sector viruses. Did linux installs use BIOS calls??? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 05:15:30 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 01:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: <20111021034138.GA24960-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20111020021113.GB22953@waltdnes.org> <20111020142339.GA30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111021034138.GA24960@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | Did linux installs use BIOS calls??? LILO did (for booting). It is pretty hard to fit a native HD driver within the 512-byte limit of a boot sector, along with everything else. Grub's first stage(s) (at least) use BIOS calls for the same reason. But running Linux (including normal installers) use the raw hardware. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 12:14:29 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:14:29 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: <20111021034138.GA24960-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20111020021113.GB22953@waltdnes.org> <20111020142339.GA30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111021034138.GA24960@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4EA16225.8070408@rogers.com> Walter Dnes wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:23:39AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > >> Well it only protected the boot sector when using BIOS calls. Once DOS >> was replaced by a real OS with native drivers for the disk controller, >> the BIOS no longer had a say. It used to be considered a protection >> from DOS boot sector viruses. >> > Did linux installs use BIOS calls??? > > As I understand it, the BIOS calls were so limited that multitasking operating systems bypass it entirely. Even with DOS, it was often ignored because of poor performance. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 14:59:13 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:59:13 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: <20111021034138.GA24960-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20111020021113.GB22953@waltdnes.org> <20111020142339.GA30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111021034138.GA24960@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111021145913.GE30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:41:38PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > Did linux installs use BIOS calls??? No, not that I can imagine. I have seen linux detect attached disks that were "disabled" in the BIOS. DOS couldn't see them, but linux asked the controller and found the disk. The only part of linux that would use BIOS calls should be the bootloader and it would only do reads. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 14:59:33 2011 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:59:33 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <20111020200834.GC6846-RqvtDOqfSGaKV7X0E1fEy0EOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111020200834.GC6846@goblin.lowshang.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Tom Low-Shang wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 07:50:28AM -0700, William Park wrote: >> Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > Debian. Servers, workstations, embedded systems, everywhere. > I switched from Ubuntu to Debian servers a few years ago (when ever they got rid of init.d) and haven't looked back. I still use Ubuntu on my workstation/laptop but it's the version before Unity. If I upgrade it will most likely be Xubuntu. -- Myles Braithwaite http://mylesbraithwaite.com | me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 15:16:07 2011 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:16:07 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111020200834.GC6846@goblin.lowshang.com> Message-ID: Renata Rocha http://renata.org On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 10:59, Myles Braithwaite wrote: > I switched from Ubuntu to Debian servers a few years ago (when ever > they got rid of init.d) and haven't looked back. > > I still use Ubuntu on my workstation/laptop but it's the version > before Unity. If I upgrade it will most likely be Xubuntu. Go for it. I am loving my Xubuntu experience and haven't used linux in my desktop for about a year! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 15:22:05 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:22:05 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111020200834.GC6846@goblin.lowshang.com> Message-ID: <4EA18E1D.4080302@rogers.com> Renata Rocha wrote: > I am loving my Xubuntu experience and haven't used linux in > my desktop for about a year! ???? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 15:22:05 2011 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:22:05 -0400 Subject: Updates: grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a Windows 7 machine here. I can relate. My condolences. Renata Rocha http://renata.org On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 13:19, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Every once in a while, I run MS Windows. ?Usually just to do updates. > Some kind of compulsion like obsessive hand washing. > > I rebooted my Fedora 15 desktop machine because of Fedora updates, so I > took the opportunity to update the Vista that came with the machine. > > Infelicities that I remember: > > - Microsoft updates are slow and require a reboot > > - upon reboot, more updates appear. ?Why? ?No explanation given (I > ?could invent some reasons). ?They too require a reboot. > > - one of the updates prompts for permission to install (ie9, I think). > ?But it puts the prompt UNDER the Windows Update window so I let the > ?machine sit there invisibly waiting for me for quite some time until > ?I moved the Windows Update window and could see it. ?DUMB. > > - several other non-Microsoft things clamour to be updated and > ?sometimes require reboots: java, Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader, ATI > ?Video driver > > - I have to "agree" to multi-page terms at several junctures > > - I have no clue about which upgrades can be done in parallel and > ?which might step on each others toes. ?So I do this serially. > > - HP Updates tool says I should update the Intel Matrix driver (for > ?the hard drives). ?It stalls during download (0 bytes downloaded). > ?Perhaps it is a firewall setting, but I get no help as to what the > ?problem is. ?(Trying again, after all the other updates, seems to > ?work. ?No idea why.) > > - At virtually every step, Vista says that a program is doing > ?something serious, and do I want to let it? > > - Firefox 3.x doesn't automatically upgrade, so I asked it to check > ?for updates. ?It then asked to update to 3.6.y, I said OK, and it > ?did. ?After that, it asked if I wanted to update to the latest > ?version. ?I then had to download and run an executable that took > ?several steps. > > - Microsoft Security Essentials is now nagging me about an update. ?I > ?guess that means that it isn't updated by Windows Update. ?No, it > ?turns out that it was already updated but the notification thingee > ?hadn't noticed. > > Updating Fedora is much easier. > > BTW, I recently updated my iPad to iOS 5. ?Even that was more awkward > than Fedora updates. ?Typing in my WPA key again, through the > touchscreen, was particularly annoying. ?And yes, I still speak > English. ?Of course I had to fire up a Windows box to run iTunes to do > the update. > > In contrast, the HP TouchPad update I did yesterday was much easier. ?I > didn't need to tether it, only one reboot, taken care of > automatically. > > Ubuntu updates are as easy as Fedora updates except in the odd case > where a config file is being changed. ?Two bad things happen: > > - the update hangs on a prompt (that's against Red Hat rules) > ?so unattended updates don't work > > - the system wants the operator to specify what it should do with the > ?conflicting config files. ?I am usually unprepared to answer > ?questions about obscure programs' obscure config files. > > I admit that doing better safely is hard. > > CentOS updates are as easy as Fedora updates. ?But for much of this > year, CentOS didn't issue any updates -- somewhat worrying. ?They are > back at it now. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 15:27:35 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:27:35 +0200 Subject: Updates: grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Renata Rocha wrote: > I have a Windows 7 machine here. I can relate. My condolences. > I like the idea of condolences to everyone using Windows. I remember once my wife told me about a colleague programming in .NET, my response was "Give her my condolences..." -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 15:31:27 2011 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:31:27 -0400 Subject: Updates: grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111021153127.GL1867@adb.ca> Ori Idan wrote: > I like the idea of condolences to everyone using Windows. I remember once my > wife told me about a colleague programming in .NET, my response was "Give > her my condolences..." It needs to be a Hallmark moment, with a selection of cards one can give to the Windows user. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 15:36:37 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:36:37 +0200 Subject: Updates: grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence In-Reply-To: <20111021153127.GL1867-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20111021153127.GL1867@adb.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Anthony de Boer wrote: > Ori Idan wrote: > > I like the idea of condolences to everyone using Windows. I remember once > my > > wife told me about a colleague programming in .NET, my response was "Give > > her my condolences..." > > It needs to be a Hallmark moment, with a selection of cards one can > give to the Windows user. > If anyone sees such a card in Hallmark shop, I would be happy to get some :-) -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 21 18:54:22 2011 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:54:22 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <4EA18E1D.4080302-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111020200834.GC6846@goblin.lowshang.com> <4EA18E1D.4080302@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:22, James Knott wrote: > Renata Rocha wrote: >> >> I am loving my Xubuntu experience and haven't used linux in >> my desktop for about a year! Sold my soul to Steve Jobs about a year ago. MacOS X's not free, but it's ohh shiny and has a decent kernel. And, to be VERY honest, I've recently freed myself from the non-free side of Unix. It's good to be working with Linux again! But don't worry, I'm not buying an Iphone 4S. :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 02:30:28 2011 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:30:28 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111021223028.f9423aea.hgibson@eol.ca> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT) William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work.? One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things.? So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. I use Windows XP Professional at work because that is what they put on my desktop. My primary application is SolidWorks. At home, I run Fedora. On my main desktop, I am in the process of replacing FC12 with FC15. My laptop runs FC14. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 02:32:46 2011 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:32:46 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core 15 Fonts Message-ID: <20111021223246.3363a748.hgibson@eol.ca> I am installing Fedora Core 15 on my desktop. I downloaded the DVD image, not the CD. I have booted, and I am seeing some weird fonts. The n's and s's are cut off. I anyone else seeing this? I am concerned because my computer has been acting strange, with Open Office not working, and all sorts of error messages. I could have a hardware problem. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 03:43:29 2011 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:43:29 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111020200834.GC6846@goblin.lowshang.com> Message-ID: <4EA23BE1.8000007@sobac.com> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 07:50:28AM -0700, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? In my office I have Ubuntu 10.10 on my laptop (desktop replacement unit), and various Ubuntu servers. At the client's office the servers are either Debian or Windows2003. I'm using Ubuntu 11.04 on their laptop and Ubuntu 11.10 on their desktop, but then I'm a Linux Rogue (everyone else uses WinXP). I've got WinXP in a VirtualBox for those times when I absolutely have to use Windows (eg. OneNote). -- Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Voice: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cel: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office& Business Automation --- Consulting -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 09:03:21 2011 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:03:21 +1000 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > The idea was that RHEL always involves support and they don't want to > have you pay for one machine but get, in effect, support for a bunch. > > My understanding is that the approach that Red Hat has taken in the past is that they'll make you recreate any issues requiring support from the CentOS boxes on the RHEL boxes as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slackrat-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 11:17:18 2011 From: slackrat-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org (Slack Rat) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:17:18 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <20111021223028.f9423aea.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> (Howard Gibson's message of "Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:30:28 -0400") References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111021223028.f9423aea.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <85hb31p961.fsf@azurservers.com> Howard Gibson a ?crit profondement: | On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT) | William Park wrote: > | > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Slackware -- Slackrat Flying the Flag of the English http://usera.imagecave.com/daveycrockett/englishdragon.jpg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 15:04:00 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Core 15 Fonts In-Reply-To: <20111021223246.3363a748.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111021223246.3363a748.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: | From: Howard Gibson | I am installing Fedora Core 15 on my desktop. I downloaded the DVD | image, not the CD. I have booted, and I am seeing some weird fonts. | The n's and s's are cut off. I'm running Fedora 15 (no longer called Fedora Core) on my desktop. But only for a month. I'm not really thrilled by the new Gnome desktop. Maybe in F16 (next month, I presume) it will be better. Anyway, it is working fine. Mind you, the first thing I do after installation is apply the updates, and there sure are a lot. | I anyone else seeing this? This list has too few Fedora users to be a great sample. Remember that there are a lot of configurations and only a few are likely misbehaving. But: no, I'm not seeing this. | I am concerned because my computer has been acting strange, with Open | Office not working, and all sorts of error messages. I could have a | hardware problem. - look in the kernel messages (output of dmesg command) for diagnostics - look in /var/log/messges and perhaps other things in /var/log for diagnostics - leave your machine running memtest86 or memtest86+ overnight (I don't remember which program is better now, but either should do) - check if any of your partitions is full - be sure to apply all the updates - fire up the misbehaving Open Office (on your old system) from a shell window to see if it reports problems on stderr or stdout. - google for your problem - report more details of your system (eg. video card) - do a SMART test on your HD. (Always a good idea, but not likely to uncover your current problem.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 14:51:47 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:51:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RHEL/CentOS support [was Re:Which Linux distro do you use at work?] In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: | From: Timothy Hildred | > The idea was that RHEL always involves support and they don't want to | > have you pay for one machine but get, in effect, support for a bunch. | My understanding is that the approach that Red Hat has taken in the past is | that they'll make you recreate any issues requiring support from the CentOS | boxes on the RHEL boxes as well. I don't own any RHEL licenses. I do run CentOS. I've been able to post to the Red Hat bugzilla and get action on a kernel bug. Since I was the only one observing it, I suggested that they *not* fix it since it might cause problems for others. On that machine, whenever I want to adopt a new kernel from CentOS (Red Hat), I have to take the source package, suppress one of the Red Hat patches, and build my own kernel. Anyway, the point is, I'm actually impressed that they take bug reports from CentOS folks and act on them. Not the same as support, but remarkable anyway. (I actually contribute to fixes to Openswan, which is included in RHEL, so it goes both ways, but they don't know that.) On the other hand, I've found CentOS support fairly weak. They usually punt things to "upstream" because they are unwilling to diverge from it. Perhaps my meaning of "support" is one-sided. Usually I'm dealing with a real misbehaviour of the system, not the user. For user misbehaviours, I generally find mailing lists, fora, and google are the best support tools. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 14:10:51 2011 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:10:51 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA2CEEB.5010308@the-wire.com> On 11-10-20 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Client standardized on WinXP. Two of us developing an embedded Linux app used Wubi to make our desktop systems dual-boot Ubuntu/WinXP. The app ran on Debian. Central support server was Ubuntu Server. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 17:44:59 2011 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:44:59 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core 15 Fonts In-Reply-To: <20111021223246.3363a748.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111021223246.3363a748.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20111022134459.77da6366.hgibson@eol.ca> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:32:46 -0400 Howard Gibson wrote: > I am installing Fedora Core 15 on my desktop. I downloaded the DVD image, not the CD. I have booted, and I am seeing some weird fonts. The n's and s's are cut off. > > I anyone else seeing this? > > I am concerned because my computer has been acting strange, with Open Office not working, and all sorts of error messages. I could have a hardware problem. I am still seeing font problems, but they change as I reboot the system. This usually is a sign of a bad power supply, right? -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 19:37:47 2011 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 15:37:47 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core 15 Fonts In-Reply-To: References: <20111021223246.3363a748.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:04 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I'm running Fedora 15 (no longer called Fedora Core) on my desktop. > But only for a month. ?I'm not really thrilled by the new Gnome > desktop. ?Maybe in F16 (next month, I presume) it will be better. I'm running the F16 beta with GNOME 3.2. It's a 6-year-old ThinkPad with an nVidia GeForce card, so it uses the nouveau driver by default. The desktop fonts are broken up in some places. I'm told nVidia's proprietary driver available from the RPM Fusion site fixes everything, but it's not available yet for my GeForce card on the latest kernel. I have no such issues with GNOME 3.2 on openSUSE, with either nouveau or the free radeon driver (both on newer hardware). Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 20:25:57 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 16:25:57 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core 15 Fonts In-Reply-To: <20111022134459.77da6366.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111021223246.3363a748.hgibson@eol.ca> <20111022134459.77da6366.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4EA326D5.80803@utoronto.ca> On 22/10/11 01:44 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:32:46 -0400 > Howard Gibson wrote: > >> I am installing Fedora Core 15 on my desktop. I downloaded the DVD image, not the CD. I have booted, and I am seeing some weird fonts. The n's and s's are cut off. >> >> I anyone else seeing this? >> >> I am concerned because my computer has been acting strange, with Open Office not working, and all sorts of error messages. I could have a hardware problem. > > I am still seeing font problems, but they change as I reboot the system. This usually is a sign of a bad power supply, right? I've personally never liked fonts on Fedora. In the past this was due to licensing issues with the freetype engine and possible patent infringement. I'm not sure what the status is now, but there are easy ways to change the default behaviour. Take a look at these pages, you'll be much happier: http://blog.andreas-haerter.com/2011/07/18/tune-improve-fedora-fonts-typeface-ubuntu-like-sharp-fonts https://kevinkofler.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/hint-how-to-force-autohinting-on-fedora-15/ Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 22 21:41:57 2011 From: avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Volkov) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:41:57 -0400 Subject: Resume from Sleep/Hibernation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA338A5.5070706@gmail.com> Hey Alex, I had a similar problem with my thinkpad laptop. In my case though, sleep worked flawlessly but hibernation failed. I don't remember exact steps, but on the debian system, re-running the following command and fiddling with parameters helped: # dpkg-reconfigure uswsusp This is kind of obvious, but if you running off SSD, you still need to have swap partition for hibernation to work. If you are using any proprietary drivers i.e. video card drivers -- I have nvidia on my desktop and the weird issue I had some time ago, the system will hibernate only once, also if you are using non-free firmware you will have to blacklist it in one of the uswsusp config files so the module will be reloaded for each hibernate/wakeup. Strangely in my case wireless module correctly wakes up from sleep but not hibernation. I hope that helps. Alex. On 20/10/11 02:05 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: > Hey all, > > Before I begin, let me say that I've already scoured the Internet for > possible solutions, but nothing appears relevant. > > I've noticed an issue with sleep and hibernation in both Kubuntu 11.10 > and PCLinuxOS 2011.09. Initiating sleep and/or hibernation works > correctly, but when I resume from either one, rather than being > prompted for my password [as was the default previously], the KDM > login screen appears. So, it seems that, somehow, KDE crashed during > the restore. > > The behaviour occurs on my Acer Aspire One D250 net book, Compaq > Presario V6000 note book, and my girlfriend's Lenovo note book. I've > not yet seen it occur on any desktop, but as I haven't had time to > test it, I'm not sure if it's related to KDE or the hardware. > > Sleep/Hibernation worked flawlessly in previous versions of both > distributions. I've tested other distributions with KDE [Fedora, > openSUSE, RHEL], as well as GNOME [Fedora, RHEL, SLES, Ubuntu] and > XFCE [PCLinuxOS], and haven't seen this issue appear for those > environments. > > I've tested the behaviour when running no applications whatsoever as > well as running multiple different applications, and it seems to make > no difference. When I run either distro through a VM at work, sleep, > hibernate, and restore all occur without any issue. I'm not overly > certain whether this is a valid test, though, given that the distro > doesn't [as far as I am aware] interact directly with the hardware. > > I'm not overly familiar with the workings of KDE, so if anyone has any > pointers to information, or ways I can troubleshoot this, it would be > greatly appreciated. > > Alex Gabriel > Dimensia Design Studio > alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 23 12:13:03 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 08:13:03 -0400 Subject: Debian update - keyboard unresponsive Message-ID: I helped an older retired gentleman switch from MS to linux. I got a call from him, his keyboard has stopped working. I told him how to initialize the on screen keyboard for now. I had added Wheezy to the apt repository catalog and apparantly, from what I've read so far, something in that update has broken udev rules for usb devices. However the keyboard is a PS2 connection. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm heading up there today to help with this and any input would be appreciated. Russell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ushnish.sengupta-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 01:49:25 2011 From: ushnish.sengupta-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ushnish Sengupta) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:49:25 -0400 Subject: Last few days for advance registration for FSOSS/Linuxfest 2011 Message-ID: Hi Lookign forward to meeting with many of you at the upcoming FSOSS/Linuxfest conference Sep 27-29 If you are planning to attend the conference, a reminder that advance registration closes on Wednesday, and walk registration is more expensive Register at http://fsoss.ca Schedule is available at: http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2011/schedule. Also this year, the conference is providing a special discounted rate of $20 for Saturday Oct 29th ONLY attendees. In addition to regular conference presentations in the morning, Saturday will include an unconference session in the afternoon, where you can meet like minded attendees and talk on any topic of your choice. The Sat-only promo code is: linuxfest-2011 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 03:16:18 2011 From: ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:16:18 -0400 Subject: Updates: grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA4D882.7080906@gmail.com> Sorry for this delay and this off topic followup on this thread. Some ideas for short circuiting the Windows update process. I suspect that Windows Update is rather stupid. It appears that updates are downloaded and then the service pack is downloaded which includes all the updates you've just applied. So if you know that the Windows you're installing is a service pack or two behind, I would suggest disabling Windows Update after installing Windows, download the service packs manually and install them; then turn Windows update back on. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 05:25:17 2011 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 01:25:17 -0400 Subject: Last few days for advance registration for FSOSS/Linuxfest 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA4F6BD.3080308@ve3syb.ca> On 11-10-23 09:49 PM, Ushnish Sengupta wrote: > Also this year, the conference is providing a special discounted rate of $20 > for Saturday Oct 29th ONLY attendees. $20 only for the day? That's quite a discount compared to the $120 at the door price. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 13:54:54 2011 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:54:54 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Started with Debian at home ('96), ran SLES servers at work starting in '03 until we were acquired by a Microsoft shop, ran Ubuntu at home and work *since* 2004. This spring I got involved with the GNOME Documentation Team and needed a running GNOME 3 desktop, so I switched to openSUSE (the flavour of the GNOME 3 Live DVD) everywhere with no regrets. I now also run Fedora 16 on my old laptop, and still run an older copy of Ubuntu in VMware Fusion on the iMac. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 14:33:02 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:33:02 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <20111021223028.f9423aea.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111021223028.f9423aea.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20111024143302.GF30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 10:30:28PM -0400, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT) > William Park wrote: > > > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work.? One disadvantage is that I can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually involves distro specific things.? So, I want to find out Redhat's market percentage in GTA. > > I use Windows XP Professional at work because that is what they put on my desktop. My primary application is SolidWorks. Well I suppose by the time SolidWorks 2013 comes out you will get an upgrade since XP support is history by then. :) > At home, I run Fedora. On my main desktop, I am in the process of replacing FC12 with FC15. My laptop runs FC14. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 15:48:15 2011 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:48:15 -0400 Subject: Microsoft tries to block Linux off Windows 8 PCs In-Reply-To: <4EA16225.8070408-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20110921212819.GV15312@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4E7A592F.2050207@gmail.com> <20111020021113.GB22953@waltdnes.org> <20111020142339.GA30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111021034138.GA24960@waltdnes.org> <4EA16225.8070408@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:14 AM, James Knott wrote: >> >> ? Did linux installs use BIOS calls??? >> > > As I understand it, the BIOS calls were so limited that multitasking > operating systems bypass it entirely. ?Even with DOS, it was often ignored > because of poor performance. They were indeed limited. Before I began using Linux a co-worker challenged me to write an OS. I didn't think I'd be up to it but after looking around I bumped into the OSDev ring of websites where I learned a great deal about BIOS calls. They are enough to create simple OS's with though, and were what I used in my experiments. After getting stuck and reading Andrew Tanenbaum's book on Minix* I was able to get some basic multitasking working. I then began my move to Linux. :-) I can't say for certain - as I haven't looked in on it years - but for any interested in the topic of OS development, I believe that is the successor to the old site ring. -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 15:58:48 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:58:48 +0200 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <20111024143302.GF30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111021223028.f9423aea.hgibson@eol.ca> <20111024143302.GF30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 10:30:28PM -0400, Howard Gibson wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT) > > William Park wrote: > > > > > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > > > > > > I use Slackware at home and Redhat at work. One disadvantage is that I > can't easily transfer knowledge between home and work, because it usually > involves distro specific things. So, I want to find out Redhat's market > percentage in GTA. > > > > I use Windows XP Professional at work because that is what they put on > my desktop. My primary application is SolidWorks. > > Well I suppose by the time SolidWorks 2013 comes out you will get an > upgrade since XP support is history by then. :) > > > At home, I run Fedora. On my main desktop, I am in the process of > replacing FC12 with FC15. My laptop runs FC14. > > -- > Len Sorensen > > The first Linux distribution I used at work was Caldera which is funny as this was from SCO who later went against red hat and red hat users, claiming for patent infringement and in the end it turned out that the IP for Unix was still at Novell's hands :-) Before that I had played a little with a distribution I think called Ygdrasill if I spell it correctly. Today after trying many distributions including Red Hat and Mandriva (when they called it Mandrake), I am now using Ubuntu on both my desktop and 2 client servers I manage. I do work sometimes at client sites on Windows XP or Windows 7 but try to avoid it as much as possible. -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 16:33:20 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:33:20 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? Debian/Unstable. Well, I have some release of Ubuntu on my laptop; don't remember what offhand. 10.something, I think. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 17:32:03 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:32:03 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sadly, none. As the design systems I run are Windows-only, and our corporate network flags and chases off all unknown machines, you know what I have to use ... Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 17:33:35 2011 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:33:35 -0300 Subject: [TLUG] Let's help KDE Message-ID: Hi, you like KDE and you want to support it ? Here's an easy way to do it: The german bank ING DiBa is giving away 1000 Euro each to 1000 associations. Selecting the 1000 winning associations is done via voting. So, if you vote for the KDE eV there, we have a good chance to be one of the winners :-) The money will be used by the eV to fund sprints, cover travel costs, run servers, etc. This is how to do it: 1) go to https://verein.ing-diba.de/sonstiges/10115/kde-ev and click "Stimme abgeben" 2) enter your email and the captcha it asks for and then click "absenden" 3) you'll get an email to confirm your vote - click the link in the email 4) you'll get to a website - click "Stimme abgeben" You have 3 votes, i.e. you can vote 3 times for KDE (per email address). =================================================== Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha - Kalib Graduando em Sistemas de Informa??es - EST?CIO/FIC Usu?rio Linux #407564 | Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 Fortaleza - Cear? - Brazil Celular: +55 085 87620983 Certifica??es: ITIL V3 | CSM Minha Pessoa: Blog | Linkedin Projetos: Tux-CE | Archlinux-br | Chakra | KDE Brasil | TLUG | PUG-CE =================================================== Proteja meu endere?o como estou protegendo o seu. N?o revele e-mail dos correspondentes: use Cco (Copia Carbonada Oculta). Retire os endere?os antes de reenviar. Dificulte assim a dissemina??o de v?rus e spam. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 17:53:03 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:53:03 -0400 Subject: talk topic: Cfengine Message-ID: <20111024175303.GA8228@watson-wilson.ca> Hi Folks, Would anyone be interested in a talk on Cfengine? If so what subtopics would you like covered? Sincerely, -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 17:57:07 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:57:07 +0200 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Stewart Russell wrote: > Sadly, none. As the design systems I run are Windows-only, and our > corporate network flags and chases off all unknown machines, you know > what I have to use ... > What design systems do you use? I also have problems convincing IT personel of my customers to use Linux instead of windows. -- Ori Idan > Stewart > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 18:38:29 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:38:29 -0400 Subject: talk topic: Cfengine In-Reply-To: <20111024175303.GA8228-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111024175303.GA8228@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Would anyone be interested in a talk on Cfengine? ?If so what subtopics > would you like covered? That seems like a pretty good idea. I'm still on version 2, myself... 'Twould be interesting to see what's differing about v3 these days. Having some "compare & contrast" with Puppet, which is also pretty popular these days, would be nice. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 19:11:50 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:11:50 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Ori Idan wrote: > > What design systems do you use? Rather specialized ones: * WindFarm: * WindPRO: * PVsyst: WindFarm and WindPro use elaborate Hasp key encryption. The predecessor of WindPro used to run on Linux. PVsyst has something in the README about how to get it to run under Wine, but that's cheating. There is one open wind farm design package - AWS openWind - but it's limited to small projects. Stewart -- http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ushnish.sengupta-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 24 19:35:19 2011 From: ushnish.sengupta-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ushnish Sengupta) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:35:19 -0400 Subject: Last few days for advance registration for FSOSS/Linuxfest 2011 In-Reply-To: <4EA4F6BD.3080308-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4EA4F6BD.3080308@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: Yes, the one day Saturday registration of $20 is discounted compared to the three day conference price (walk in $120). The $20 essentially covers the lunch/snacks cost, there is no SWAG bag for the one day Saturday registration. We were told by a number of people in the community that they are working on Thursday/Friday and can only attend Saturday. So as conference organizers we responded with the Saturday only discount! Given the opportunity to take in both scheduled presentations on Saturday morning, and to talk on any topic of your choice during the unconference session in the afternoon, we hope there is a good representation from the community :-). Ushnish On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:25 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > On 11-10-23 09:49 PM, Ushnish Sengupta wrote: > >> Also this year, the conference is providing a special discounted rate of >> $20 >> for Saturday Oct 29th ONLY attendees. >> > > $20 only for the day? That's quite a discount compared to the $120 at the > door price. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 00:03:58 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:03:58 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? Message-ID: > > What design systems do you use? > > Rather specialized ones: > * WindFarm: > * WindPRO: > * PVsyst: > Nice, did not even know there are wind farm software out there. Amaizing > WindFarm and WindPro use elaborate Hasp key encryption. The > predecessor of WindPro used to run on Linux. PVsyst has something in > the README about how to get it to run under Wine, but that's cheating. > > There is one open wind farm design package - AWS openWind > - but it's limited to small projects. > Will definately monkey with this one. Just curious whats in this industry as i have been hearing a lot about it in the media. > Stewart > > -- > http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 03:12:36 2011 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:12:36 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <20111024143302.GF30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111021223028.f9423aea.hgibson@eol.ca> <20111024143302.GF30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111024231236.a427bb88.hgibson@eol.ca> On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:33:02 -0400 lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > > > > I use Windows XP Professional at work because that is what they put on my desktop. My primary application is SolidWorks. > > Well I suppose by the time SolidWorks 2013 comes out you will get an > upgrade since XP support is history by then. :) Lennart, We just upgraded from SW2007 to SW2011. We were held up because our PDM runs off the same database as our accounting software, and they only upgraded that recently. We are at the end of a chain. The first Linux I ever tested was Yggdrasil. All I did was run the CDROM. The first Linux I installed was a version of Slackware, with the 1.2.13 kernel. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 13:13:37 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:13:37 -0400 Subject: Grant Officer Message-ID: Two postings from Jim Mercer re: Grant Officer (the Glen Allen Cemetery is in Glen Allen, Ontario) : ----------------------------------------- Grant's funeral will be on Saturday, Oct 29, at 2:pm. It will be held at the Glen Allan Cemetery. I will follow-up with any details of a wake or the ceremony itself. -------------------------------------------- >From Mike: To get to the cemetery in Glen Allan, simply continue going north east on the main street (Wellington Rd 45) past Bridge Street. You will see a church on your right and the cemetery is in behind the church. Google map showing directions from the 401. ON-401 W to Glen Allan, ON - Google Maps : http://maps.google.ca/maps?saddr=ON-401+W&daddr=Glen+Allan%2C+ON&hl=en&sll=43.530315%2C-80.540455&sspn=0.39577%2C1.056747&geocode=FRJalgIdgrY1-w%3BFQkmmgIdm4Qw-ynPHv1oueYriDEv3FYjSEmjaA&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&t=m&z=11 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 18:09:37 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:09:37 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <20111024231236.a427bb88.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111021223028.f9423aea.hgibson@eol.ca> <20111024143302.GF30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111024231236.a427bb88.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20111025180937.GG30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:12:36PM -0400, Howard Gibson wrote: > We just upgraded from SW2007 to SW2011. We were held up because our PDM runs off the same database as our accounting software, and they only upgraded that recently. We are at the end of a chain. > > The first Linux I ever tested was Yggdrasil. All I did was run the CDROM. The first Linux I installed was a version of Slackware, with the 1.2.13 kernel. I think yggdrasil might have been the first with a bootable CD. I have it on a CD that also contains redhat 2.0 and slackware and a few other distrubions. I never did try yggdrasil. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 18:35:18 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:35:18 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA70166.5080906@dinamis.com> On 10/20/2011 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? I started with Red Hat 4, switched to Mandrake, made side-trips to (Open)SuSE, Gentoo, Mepis, and various other distros I don't remember, used Mandriva for years, Ubuntu for a while, and CentOS. I currently use Fedora 13 on this machine, my primary working environment. I'll update to 16 once it's out. We run Debian Squeeze on our servers and virtualize them with OpenVZ. I also run OS X and Windows on notebooks. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 18:41:44 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:41:44 -0400 Subject: Conference Confusion Message-ID: I got a phone call this afternoon from a person wanting to know if this week's Linux conference had been cancelled. My answer was, not as far as I knew. With a little back and forth, it turned out the person calling had gone to the website for a now dead series of Ontario Linux conferences (that I will let remain nameless). This week's conference is (as far as I know) still on, with details to be seen here: http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2011/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 20:40:35 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harddisk prices... going up? Message-ID: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I was looking to buy a 1TB disk, and I noticed that the price of harddisks in general went up by 60% or so.? What gives? -- William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 20:45:10 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:45:10 -0400 Subject: Harddisk prices... going up? In-Reply-To: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:40 PM, William Park wrote: > I was looking to buy a 1TB disk, and I noticed that the price of harddisks > in general went up by 60% or so.? What gives? Apparently, manufacture of crucial portions of hard drives has shifted, to a considerable extent, to parts of Thailand that recently experienced severe flooding. http://news.yahoo.com/thailand-flooding-smacks-hard-drive-industry-194036552.html -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From Alexander.Short-V7Ve2fXh0sTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 20:45:12 2011 From: Alexander.Short-V7Ve2fXh0sTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Alexander Short) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:45:12 -0400 Subject: Harddisk prices... going up? In-Reply-To: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Got this from my Insight rep... Dear valued client, We want to make you aware of recent world events that could impact your upcoming technology purchases. Due to the monsoon weather and subsequent flooding that is currently devastating parts of Thailand, Insight is anticipating a major hard drive shortage. Insight's procurement team is working proactively to secure an adequate product supply and minimize the impact of this disaster on any upcoming hard drive needs you may have. Information about the impact of this event: Western Digital has reported that this disaster has affected operations in Thailand which account for about 25 percent of the world's hard drive manufacturing Seagate is also affected and is predicting shortages Insight is actively placing stocking orders with our distribution partners to increase our current hard drive inventory While the effects of this hard drive shortage are being assessed and addressed, you may experience delays in product availability and potential price impacts. We regret that we cannot entirely mitigate these risks and their impact on your procurement plans. However, be assured that Insight will continue to work proactively to minimize the potential impact of this hard drive shortage on your organization. We value your business and will continue to partner with you during this situation. Thank you for your continued partnership. -- Alexander Short Associate Director, IT Operations Iovate Health Sciences Inc. 381 North Service Road West Oakville, ON L6M 0H4 www.iovate.com E-mail: alexander.short at iovate.com Phone: 905.678.4024 Toll-Free: 1.888.334.4448 x 4024 Cell: 416.317.9924 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic transmission and any attachments hereto are intended for the confidential use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential information belonging to Iovate. You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action, based on the contents of this electronic transmission and without Iovate?s express authorization, is strictly prohibited. If you have reason to believe that you have received this transmission in error, please notify immediately by return e-mail and delete and destroy this communication. [Sent from a BlackBerry Wireless Device] From: William Park [mailto:opengeometry at yahoo.ca] Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 04:40 PM To: tlug at ss.org Subject: [TLUG]: Harddisk prices... going up? I was looking to buy a 1TB disk, and I noticed that the price of harddisks in general went up by 60% or so. What gives? -- William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 20:47:08 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:47:08 -0400 Subject: Harddisk prices... going up? In-Reply-To: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111025204708.GH30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 01:40:35PM -0700, William Park wrote: > I was looking to buy a 1TB disk, and I noticed that the price of harddisks in general went up by 60% or so.? What gives? Toshiba and WD plants in Thailand are sitting with 1m flood water on the factory floor. Production capacity is down about 60% for both. The suppliers next door have the same issue. Lots of production equipment is probably destroyed at this point. Seagate is still working it seems, but the expectation is about a 30% drop in supply for the quarter, so about 50 million drives short of normal production. Apparently Thailand manufactures almost all hard drives in the world. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ushnish.sengupta-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 20:57:13 2011 From: ushnish.sengupta-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ushnish Sengupta) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:57:13 -0400 Subject: Conference Confusion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Colin, you are absolutely correct. This year FSOSS & Linuxfest is one combined conference. Two conferences for the price of one! http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2011/ Ushnish On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > I got a phone call this afternoon from a person wanting to know if > this week's Linux conference had been cancelled. My answer was, not as > far as I knew. With a little back and forth, it turned out the person > calling had gone to the website for a now dead series of Ontario Linux > conferences (that I will let remain nameless). > > This week's conference is (as far as I know) still on, with details to > be seen here: > > http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2011/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slackrat-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 21:40:21 2011 From: slackrat-GANU6spQydw at public.gmane.org (Slack Rat) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:40:21 -0400 Subject: Harddisk prices... going up? In-Reply-To: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo-iGg6QNsgFOEP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> (William Park's message of "Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:40:35 -0700 (PDT)") References: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <85pqhk3g2q.fsf@azurservers.com> William Park a ?crit profondement: | I was looking to buy a 1TB disk, and I noticed that the price of | harddisks in general went up by 60% or so.? What gives? Opportunity knocks Hard drive prices going up - Thailand+++ Memory prices going up - Japan Time to open a Canadian Factory or two -- Slackrat Flying the Flag of the English http://usera.imagecave.com/daveycrockett/englishdragon.jpg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 22:04:16 2011 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:04:16 -0400 Subject: Conference Confusion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3020687501342758159@unknownmsgid> Thanks Colin! It's a joint event this year. FSOSS and toronto Linux Fest starts Thursday and ends Saturday. There is now a sat only option for those who cannot make it out during the week. $20. Check the website in Colin's message for details. Sent from my mobile On 2011-10-25, at 2:41 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > I got a phone call this afternoon from a person wanting to know if > this week's Linux conference had been cancelled. My answer was, not as > far as I knew. With a little back and forth, it turned out the person > calling had gone to the website for a now dead series of Ontario Linux > conferences (that I will let remain nameless). > > This week's conference is (as far as I know) still on, with details to > be seen here: > > http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2011/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 25 23:33:12 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 19:33:12 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive Message-ID: The updated system was having problems with udevadm trigger. This is a known bug Debian Bug report logs - #593083 This fix is from the bug report In single user mode cd /etc/rc2.d/ mv S02udev K02udev init 6 On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:13 AM, Russell Reiter wrote: > > I helped an older retired gentleman switch from MS to linux. I got a call from him, his keyboard has stopped working. I told him how to initialize the on screen keyboard for now. > > I had added Wheezy to the apt repository catalog and apparantly, from what I've read so far, something in that update has broken udev rules for usb devices. However the keyboard is a PS2 connection. > > Has anyone else experienced this?? I'm heading up there today to help with this and any input would be appreciated. > > Russell -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 00:09:56 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:09:56 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2011 7:33 PM, "Russell Reiter" wrote: > > The updated system was having problems with udevadm trigger. > > This is a known bug > > Debian Bug report logs - #593083 > > This fix is from the bug report > > In single user mode > > cd /etc/rc2.d/ > mv S02udev K02udev > > init 6 Nice, thanks for updating us on how you solved it. Appreaciate William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 01:09:41 2011 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 01:09:41 +0000 Subject: talk topic: Cfengine Message-ID: <793888443-1319591383-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2041103513-@b13.c24.bise6.blackberry> I would be interested ------Original Message------ From: Neil Watson Sender: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org ReplyTo: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: talk topic: Cfengine Sent: Oct 24, 2011 1:53 PM Hi Folks, Would anyone be interested in a talk on Cfengine? If so what subtopics would you like covered? Sincerely, -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 07:06:39 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:06:39 +0200 Subject: Harddisk prices... going up? In-Reply-To: <85pqhk3g2q.fsf-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA@public.gmane.org> References: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <85pqhk3g2q.fsf@azurservers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Slack Rat wrote: > William Park a ?crit profondement: > > | I was looking to buy a 1TB disk, and I noticed that the price of > | harddisks in general went up by 60% or so. What gives? > > Opportunity knocks > > Hard drive prices going up - Thailand+++ > > Memory prices going up - Japan > > Time to open a Canadian Factory or two > The problem is labour prices in Canada, actually not only Canada, all the western world. But if you do open a factory, I will be happy to help :-) -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 15:11:54 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:11:54 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 07:33:12PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > The updated system was having problems with udevadm trigger. > > This is a known bug > > Debian Bug report logs - #593083 > > This fix is from the bug report > > In single user mode > > cd /etc/rc2.d/ > mv S02udev K02udev That doesn't look like a fix to me. That just kills udev in normal mode. That will certainly make a lot of things not work anymore. > init 6 aka 'reboot'? Why not 'telinit 2' to actually just finish booting to normal mode? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 15:27:57 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:27:57 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111026151154.GI30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 11:11:54AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 07:33:12PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > > The updated system was having problems with udevadm trigger. > > > > This is a known bug > > > > Debian Bug report logs - #593083 > > > > This fix is from the bug report > > > > In single user mode > > > > cd /etc/rc2.d/ > > mv S02udev K02udev > > That doesn't look like a fix to me. That just kills udev in normal mode. > That will certainly make a lot of things not work anymore. Amazing how the very first comment in the bug is also 'You just made it worse'. in fact deleting S02udev from rc[2345].d would be a solution (since udev starts in rcS.d and should not attempt to start in rc[2345].d). One person said they probably caused it by using gnome's service config tool. > > init 6 > > aka 'reboot'? > > Why not 'telinit 2' to actually just finish booting to normal mode? In other words, don't take advice from people that don't know what they are doing, as clearly the person filling the bug report didn't. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 15:57:28 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:57:28 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111026152757.GJ30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: What I like about Linux is that there is more than one way to fix stuff. Udev is apparently working now. It looks to me like this one init script was fouling up by initializing udev before /dev/null was created. On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 11:11:54AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 07:33:12PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> > The updated system was having problems with udevadm trigger. >> > >> > This is a known bug >> > >> > Debian Bug report logs - #593083 >> > >> > This fix is from the bug report >> > >> > In single user mode >> > >> > cd /etc/rc2.d/ >> > mv S02udev K02udev >> >> That doesn't look like a fix to me. ?That just kills udev in normal mode. >> That will certainly make a lot of things not work anymore. > > Amazing how the very first comment in the bug is also 'You just made > it worse'. > > in fact deleting S02udev from rc[2345].d would be a solution (since udev > starts in rcS.d and should not attempt to start in rc[2345].d). ?One > person said they probably caused it by using gnome's service config tool. > >> > init 6 >> >> aka 'reboot'? >> >> Why not 'telinit 2' to actually just finish booting to normal mode? > > In other words, don't take advice from people that don't know what they > are doing, as clearly the person filling the bug report didn't. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 16:31:26 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:31:26 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 11:57:28AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > What I like about Linux is that there is more than one way to fix > stuff. Udev is apparently working now. It looks to me like this one > init script was fouling up by initializing udev before /dev/null was > created. The problem appears to be that some people end up with udev starting both in rcS.d and rc2.d. Starting udev twice does NOT work. On the other hand starting udev in rcS.d and stopping it in rc2.d does not fix things. Sure it means you don't start udev twice, but it also means you end up with udev not running at all. What you want it udev running exactly once. That means starting in rcS.d only, and not in rc[2345].d. Not starting is not the same as stopping. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:19:57 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:19:57 -0400 Subject: OT: Android power-hog app Message-ID: With the assistance of the "Battery Monitor Widget" Android app, I've been trying to figure out what exactly could cause the battery charge on an Asus Transformer to tank entirely overnight. For a couple months, the battery lasted as long as I expected (several days), but now the battery charts are showing that occasionally I have several hours overnight where the power consumption is in the 2-7 mA range (expected), and then it can suddenly switch to the 40-140 mA range and stay there permanently. But I don't know what's causing this, and I'm not even sure I can get at the appropriate logs on an unrooted device (or if those logs exist). Anyone have any thoughts about tracking this down? Thanks. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:26:25 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:26:25 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111026163126.GK30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Just to be clear here, I meant the problem is solved for the end user. At least until it breaks again. This worked, no apparant acpi problems have surfaced as of yet (as mentioned in the bug report) and the ps2 keyboard is now working, as well as all usb devices are detected on boot and are functioning. I did read something about gdm problems and the maintainer thinks initramfs is broken for the guy who reported the bug. I'm not so sure, I'm having a look for similar gdm problems now. In case there are other issues. I tried the other suggested fixes before this one: rm -rf /run and creating an xorg.conf file with autodetect disabled. This renaming is what worked. So far so good. On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 11:57:28AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> What I like about Linux is that there is more than one way to fix >> stuff. Udev is apparently working now. It looks to me like this one >> init script was fouling up by initializing udev before /dev/null was >> created. > > The problem appears to be that some people end up with udev starting > both in rcS.d and rc2.d. ?Starting udev twice does NOT work. You mean udevd right? > > On the other hand starting udev in rcS.d and stopping it in rc2.d does > not fix things. ?Sure it means you don't start udev twice, but it also > means you end up with udev not running at all. ?What you want it udev > running exactly once. ?That means starting in rcS.d only, and not in > rc[2345].d. ?Not starting is not the same as stopping. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:30:58 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:30:58 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 01:26:25PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > Just to be clear here, I meant the problem is solved for the end user. > At least until it breaks again. > > This worked, no apparant acpi problems have surfaced as of yet (as > mentioned in the bug report) and the ps2 keyboard is now working, as > well as all usb devices are detected on boot and are functioning. Yes but almost certainly any usb devices connected later won't work. > I did read something about gdm problems and the maintainer thinks > initramfs is broken for the guy who reported the bug. I'm not so sure, > I'm having a look for similar gdm problems now. In case there are > other issues. That appeared to be a wrong track. The real problem is that both rcS.d and rc2.d tried to start udev. udev never uses rc2.d, only rcS.d so something else had created the link in rc2.d for udev which caused the problem. > I tried the other suggested fixes before this one: rm -rf /run and > creating an xorg.conf file with autodetect disabled. This renaming is > what worked. So far so good. That appears to be a different unrelated problem. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:36:31 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:36:31 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111026173058.GL30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 01:26:25PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> Just to be clear here, I meant the problem is solved for the end user. >> At least until it breaks again. >> >> This worked, no apparant acpi problems have surfaced as of yet (as >> mentioned in the bug report) and the ps2 keyboard is now working, as >> well as all usb devices are detected on boot and are functioning. > > Yes but almost certainly any usb devices connected later won't work. The web cam hot plugs fine. As do the two mice and the two keyboards that are connectd to the box. He uses the wireless one's from across the room. He's using a 42 in HDTV as a monitor. > >> I did read something about gdm problems and the maintainer thinks >> initramfs is broken for the guy who reported the bug. I'm not so sure, >> I'm having a look for similar gdm problems now. In case there are >> other issues. > > That appeared to be a wrong track. ?The real problem is that both rcS.d > and rc2.d tried to start udev. ?udev never uses rc2.d, only rcS.d so > something else had created the link in rc2.d for udev which caused > the problem. > >> I tried the other suggested fixes before this one: rm -rf /run and >> creating an xorg.conf file with autodetect disabled. This renaming is >> what worked. So far so good. > > That appears to be a different unrelated problem. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:41:36 2011 From: hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Burhan Hanoglu) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Android power-hog app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1319650896.91278.YahooMailNeo@web113814.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> "Settings-->About phone-->Battery use" (not sure if this is standard across all devices)should tell you about the top battery consumer(s). Sincerely, Burhan >________________________________ >From: Giles Orr >To: tlug >Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 1:19:57 PM >Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Android power-hog app > >With the assistance of the "Battery Monitor Widget" Android app, I've >been trying to figure out what exactly could cause the battery charge >on an Asus Transformer to tank entirely overnight.? For a couple >months, the battery lasted as long as I expected (several days), but >now the battery charts are showing that occasionally I have several >hours overnight where the power consumption is in the 2-7 mA range >(expected), and then it can suddenly switch to the 40-140 mA range and >stay there permanently.? But I don't know what's causing this, and I'm >not even sure I can get at the appropriate logs on an unrooted device >(or if those logs exist).? Anyone have any thoughts about tracking >this down?? Thanks. > >-- >Giles >http://www.gilesorr.com/ >gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org >-- >The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 17:42:57 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:42:57 -0700 Subject: OT: Android power-hog app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Use bluetooth? I've found that the "mediaserver" process goes berserk sometimes after terminating an A2DP connection. On Oct 26, 2011 10:20 AM, "Giles Orr" wrote: > With the assistance of the "Battery Monitor Widget" Android app, I've > been trying to figure out what exactly could cause the battery charge > on an Asus Transformer to tank entirely overnight. For a couple > months, the battery lasted as long as I expected (several days), but > now the battery charts are showing that occasionally I have several > hours overnight where the power consumption is in the 2-7 mA range > (expected), and then it can suddenly switch to the 40-140 mA range and > stay there permanently. But I don't know what's causing this, and I'm > not even sure I can get at the appropriate logs on an unrooted device > (or if those logs exist). Anyone have any thoughts about tracking > this down? Thanks. > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 18:30:39 2011 From: ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:30:39 -0400 Subject: Harddisk prices... going up? In-Reply-To: <20111025204708.GH30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111025204708.GH30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EA851CF.6010701@gmail.com> On 25/10/11 16:47, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 01:40:35PM -0700, William Park wrote: >> I was looking to buy a 1TB disk, and I noticed that the price of harddisks in general went up by 60% or so. What gives? > > Toshiba and WD plants in Thailand are sitting with 1m flood water on > the factory floor. Production capacity is down about 60% for both. > > The suppliers next door have the same issue. Lots of production equipment > is probably destroyed at this point. > > Seagate is still working it seems, but the expectation is about a 30% > drop in supply for the quarter, so about 50 million drives short of > normal production. > > Apparently Thailand manufactures almost all hard drives in the world. If I hear another neoconservative quote Ricardo and the Theory of Comparative Advantage, I'm going to puke. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 18:34:40 2011 From: ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:34:40 -0400 Subject: Harddisk prices... going up? In-Reply-To: References: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <85pqhk3g2q.fsf@azurservers.com> Message-ID: <4EA852C0.6000408@gmail.com> On 26/10/11 3:06, Ori Idan wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Slack Rat > wrote: > > William Park a ?crit profondement: > > | I was looking to buy a 1TB disk, and I noticed that the price of > | harddisks in general went up by 60% or so. What gives? > > Opportunity knocks > > Hard drive prices going up - Thailand+++ > > Memory prices going up - Japan > > Time to open a Canadian Factory or two > > > The problem is labour prices in Canada, actually not only Canada, all the > western world. > But if you do open a factory, I will be happy to help :-) Are wages too high in in the Western World or too low in the rest of the world? Would you suggest we settle for third world living and working conditions just so that we can compete successfully? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 18:46:19 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:46:19 +0200 Subject: Harddisk prices... going up? In-Reply-To: <4EA852C0.6000408-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1319575235.45769.YahooMailNeo@web113418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <85pqhk3g2q.fsf@azurservers.com> <4EA852C0.6000408@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > On 26/10/11 3:06, Ori Idan wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Slack Rat > > wrote: >> >> William Park a ?crit profondement: >> >> | I was looking to buy a 1TB disk, and I noticed that the price of >> | harddisks in general went up by 60% or so. What gives? >> >> Opportunity knocks >> >> Hard drive prices going up - Thailand+++ >> >> Memory prices going up - Japan >> >> Time to open a Canadian Factory or two >> >> >> The problem is labour prices in Canada, actually not only Canada, all the >> western world. >> But if you do open a factory, I will be happy to help :-) >> > > Are wages too high in in the Western World or too low in the rest of the > world? > > Would you suggest we settle for third world living and working conditions > just so that we can compete successfully? Not at all, I think we can not compete in cheap manufacturing but we can compete in things that require innovation. So if someone has an innovative way to manufactures disks or memory that will have high yields, this is the way to go and I am sure there are ways to do it. -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 19:08:38 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:08:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Android power-hog app In-Reply-To: <1319650896.91278.YahooMailNeo-JjjobmVX0cEA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319650896.91278.YahooMailNeo@web113814.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 26 October 2011 13:41, Burhan Hanoglu wrote: > ________________________________ > From: Giles Orr > To: tlug > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 1:19:57 PM > Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Android power-hog app > > With the assistance of the "Battery Monitor Widget" Android app, I've > been trying to figure out what exactly could cause the battery charge > on an Asus Transformer to tank entirely overnight.? For a couple > months, the battery lasted as long as I expected (several days), but > now the battery charts are showing that occasionally I have several > hours overnight where the power consumption is in the 2-7 mA range > (expected), and then it can suddenly switch to the 40-140 mA range and > stay there permanently.? But I don't know what's causing this, and I'm > not even sure I can get at the appropriate logs on an unrooted device > (or if those logs exist).? Anyone have any thoughts about tracking > this down?? Thanks. > > > "Settings-->About phone-->Battery use" (not sure if this is standard across > all devices) should tell you about the top battery consumer(s). > Sincerely, > Burhan On Android 3.x the equivalent is filed under Settings -> Applications -> Battery use. Unfortunately, the amount of time it reports on is extremely variable at its whim, being anywhere from 15 minutes to 6 hours - and more important, I don't think I'm buying what it's telling me. When the tablet has been on for a while, what I see on that chart makes sense, but when the tablet has been off for a while the "Battery use" chart will occasionally report the Screen as the main user of power. And it doesn't mention other processes I know are running that they evidently don't consider "significant enough." Sorry I didn't mention that I'd tried that: I wrote it off a while ago, and thus my reliance on a third party app. It's a sound suggestion, it just doesn't seem to be working in this context. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 19:13:44 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:13:44 -0400 Subject: OT: Android power-hog app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 October 2011 13:42, Tyler Aviss wrote: > On Oct 26, 2011 10:20 AM, "Giles Orr" wrote: >> With the assistance of the "Battery Monitor Widget" Android app, I've >> been trying to figure out what exactly could cause the battery charge >> on an Asus Transformer to tank entirely overnight. ?For a couple >> months, the battery lasted as long as I expected (several days), but >> now the battery charts are showing that occasionally I have several >> hours overnight where the power consumption is in the 2-7 mA range >> (expected), and then it can suddenly switch to the 40-140 mA range and >> stay there permanently. ?But I don't know what's causing this, and I'm >> not even sure I can get at the appropriate logs on an unrooted device >> (or if those logs exist). ?Anyone have any thoughts about tracking >> this down? ?Thanks. >> > Use bluetooth? I've found that the "mediaserver" process goes berserk > sometimes after terminating an A2DP connection. Bluetooth is off now, and has been since I purchased the thing 5 months ago. So probably not ... Thanks. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 21:26:28 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:26:28 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 01:36:31PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 01:26:25PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > >> Just to be clear here, I meant the problem is solved for the end user. > >> At least until it breaks again. > >> > >> This worked, no apparant acpi problems have surfaced as of yet (as > >> mentioned in the bug report) and the ps2 keyboard is now working, as > >> well as all usb devices are detected on boot and are functioning. > > > > Yes but almost certainly any usb devices connected later won't work. > > The web cam hot plugs fine. As do the two mice and the two keyboards > that are connectd to the box. He uses the wireless one's from across > the room. He's using a 42 in HDTV as a monitor. Hmm, well certainly renaming S02udev to K02udev would stop udev. That clearly isn't what you want. Not sure why any new device would get the driver loaded if udev has been stopped. Any device type that is already handled will stay working with or without udev. New device types that need a driver loaded on the other hand probably won't. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 22:20:02 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:20:02 -0400 Subject: rsync behaviour Message-ID: When I do rsync -au ~/.config user at host:~/backup it puts .config under ~/backup like so: ~/backup/.config but when I do rsync -au ~/Documents user at host:~/backup it puts the _contents_ of Documents under ~/backup...so I lose the 'Documents' folder. Is it because the first was a hidden dir? -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 22:25:57 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:25:57 -0400 Subject: rsync behaviour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nevermind, the second command actually had a '/' at the end, so it excluded the last folder. Picky, picky, picky ;) On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > When I do rsync -au ~/.config user at host:~/backup > > it puts .config under ~/backup like so: > > ~/backup/.config > > but when I do rsync -au ~/Documents user at host:~/backup > > it puts the _contents_ of Documents under ~/backup...so I lose the > 'Documents' folder. > > Is it because the first was a hidden dir? > > -- > Thomas Milne > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 23:16:14 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:16:14 -0400 Subject: rsync behaviour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111026231614.GN30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 06:20:02PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > When I do rsync -au ~/.config user at host:~/backup > > it puts .config under ~/backup like so: > > ~/backup/.config > > but when I do rsync -au ~/Documents user at host:~/backup > > it puts the _contents_ of Documents under ~/backup...so I lose the > 'Documents' folder. > > Is it because the first was a hidden dir? You want: rsync -au ~/Documents user at host:~/backup Make sure you do not do: rsync -au ~/Documents/ user at host:~/backup by accident using tab completion. A trailing slash means contents of directory rather than the directory and contents. I prefer to have a trailing slash on the target though since otherwise if backup does not exist, it will think you wanted to copy Documents as backup rather than into an existing directory named backup. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 23:30:14 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:30:14 -0400 Subject: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd Message-ID: Hi pals, I am having a problem with samba that I have not been able to overcome and I wonder if a fresh pair of eyes would find what I am missing. Would really appreciate any suggestion. We have samba authenticating users through openLDAP running in a separate boxes. OpenLDAP is setup with samba.schema schema and all have been running fine. I added a new share today and restarted samba but have not been able to use it. I get permission related error when I attempt to connect to the share. Below is how the share looks like: [Facility] path = /media/storage/facility read only = no guest ok = no printable = no comment = For facility usage create mask = 0770 directory mask = 0770 force create mode = 0770 force directory mode = 0770 writable = yes browsable = yes #force group = facility #valid users = @facility force group = facility valid users = @facility Below is how the file system looks like: samba:~# ls -al /media/shares/facility/ total 4 drwxrws--- 2 root facility 32 2011-10-07 09:12 . drwxr-xr-x 17 root root 456 2011-10-04 10:33 .. -rw-rwSr-- 1 root facility 83 2011-10-07 09:12 William_testing.txt samba:~# mount /dev/sdak1 on /media/shares/facility type xfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,_netdev) When I attempt to connect to the share, these is what openLDAP dump on the logs Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SRCH base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SRCH attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description displayName cn objectClass Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SEARCH RESULT tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SRCH base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SRCH attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description displayName cn objectClass Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SEARCH RESULT tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SRCH base="dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 filter="(&(sambaSID=s-1-5-21-3488853230-4045497441-2260166743-3524)(objectClass=sambaSamAccount))" Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SRCH attr=uid uidNumber gidNumber homeDirectory sambaPwdLastSet sambaPwdCanChange sambaPwdMustChange sambaLogonTime sambaLogoffTime sambaKickoffTime cn sn displayName sambaHomeDrive sambaHomePath sambaLogonScript sambaProfilePath description sambaUserWorkstations sambaSID sambaPrimaryGroupSID sambaLMPassword sambaNTPassword sambaDomainName objectClass sambaAcctFlags sambaMungedDial sambaBadPasswordCount sambaBadPasswordTime sambaPasswordHistory modifyTimestamp sambaLogonHours modifyTimestamp uidNumber Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: <= bdb_equality_candidates: (sambaSID) not indexed Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SEARCH RESULT tag=101 err=0 nentries=1 text= Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SRCH base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SRCH attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description displayName cn objectClass Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SEARCH RESULT tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= On the file server running Samba version 3.2.5, below are the corresponding logs when I attempted to connect to the share Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: connect to service Facility by user william Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: opendir ./ Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: disconnected Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: opendir ./ Anyone notice anything I may be overlooking somewhere? Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 26 23:57:23 2011 From: hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Burhan Hanoglu) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1319673443.62927.YahooMailNeo@web113808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> "path = /media/storage/facility" Is that supposed to be "/media/shares/facility" ? -Burhan ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Muriithi > To: TLUG mailing list > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:30:14 PM > Subject: [TLUG]: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd > > Hi pals, > > I am having a problem with samba that I have not been able to overcome > and I wonder if a fresh pair of eyes would find what I am missing. > Would really appreciate any suggestion. > > We have samba authenticating users through openLDAP running in a > separate boxes. OpenLDAP is setup with? samba.schema schema and all > have been running fine.? I added a new share today and restarted samba > but have? not been able to use it.? I get permission related error > when I attempt to connect to the share. Below is how the share looks > like: > > [Facility] > path = /media/storage/facility > read only = no > guest ok = no > printable = no > comment = For facility usage > create mask = 0770 > directory mask = 0770 > force create mode = 0770 > force directory mode = 0770 > writable = yes > browsable = yes > #force group = facility > #valid users = @facility > force group = facility > valid users = @facility > > Below is how the file system looks like: > > samba:~# ls -al /media/shares/facility/ > total 4 > drwxrws---? 2 root facility? 32 2011-10-07 09:12 . > drwxr-xr-x 17 root root? ? 456 2011-10-04 10:33 .. > -rw-rwSr--? 1 root facility? 83 2011-10-07 09:12 William_testing.txt > > samba:~# mount > /dev/sdak1 on /media/shares/facility type xfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,_netdev) > > When I attempt to connect to the share, these is what openLDAP dump on the logs > > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SRCH > base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 > filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SRCH > attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description > displayName cn objectClass > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SEARCH RESULT > tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SRCH > base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 > filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SRCH > attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description > displayName cn objectClass > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SEARCH RESULT > tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SRCH > base="dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 > filter="(&(sambaSID=s-1-5-21-3488853230-4045497441-2260166743-3524)(objectClass=sambaSamAccount))" > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SRCH attr=uid > uidNumber gidNumber homeDirectory sambaPwdLastSet sambaPwdCanChange > sambaPwdMustChange sambaLogonTime sambaLogoffTime sambaKickoffTime cn > sn displayName sambaHomeDrive sambaHomePath sambaLogonScript > sambaProfilePath description sambaUserWorkstations sambaSID > sambaPrimaryGroupSID sambaLMPassword sambaNTPassword sambaDomainName > objectClass sambaAcctFlags sambaMungedDial sambaBadPasswordCount > sambaBadPasswordTime sambaPasswordHistory modifyTimestamp > sambaLogonHours modifyTimestamp uidNumber > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: <= bdb_equality_candidates: > (sambaSID) not indexed > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SEARCH RESULT > tag=101 err=0 nentries=1 text= > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SRCH > base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 > filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SRCH > attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description > displayName cn objectClass > Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SEARCH RESULT > tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= > > On the file server running Samba version 3.2.5, below are the > corresponding logs when I attempted to connect to the share > > Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: connect to service Facility > by user william > Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: opendir ./ > Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: disconnected > Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: opendir ./ > > Anyone notice anything I may be overlooking somewhere? > > > Regards, > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 00:06:15 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:06:15 -0400 Subject: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd In-Reply-To: <1319673443.62927.YahooMailNeo-yuErHerIfHQP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319673443.62927.YahooMailNeo@web113808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Burhan, On 26 October 2011 19:57, Burhan Hanoglu wrote: > "path = /media/storage/facility" > > Is that supposed to be "/media/shares/facility" ? Ah, yea its "/media/shares/facility" but that was a typo when drafting the mail as I had been using /media/storage./facility for testing On the system, I have just checked and they match, so this is not the problem Regards, William > > -Burhan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: William Muriithi >> To: TLUG mailing list >> Cc: >> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:30:14 PM >> Subject: [TLUG]: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd >> >> Hi pals, >> >> I am having a problem with samba that I have not been able to overcome >> and I wonder if a fresh pair of eyes would find what I am missing. >> Would really appreciate any suggestion. >> >> We have samba authenticating users through openLDAP running in a >> separate boxes. OpenLDAP is setup with? samba.schema schema and all >> have been running fine.? I added a new share today and restarted samba >> but have? not been able to use it.? I get permission related error >> when I attempt to connect to the share. Below is how the share looks >> like: >> >> [Facility] >> path = /media/storage/facility >> read only = no >> guest ok = no >> printable = no >> comment = For facility usage >> create mask = 0770 >> directory mask = 0770 >> force create mode = 0770 >> force directory mode = 0770 >> writable = yes >> browsable = yes >> #force group = facility >> #valid users = @facility >> force group = facility >> valid users = @facility >> >> Below is how the file system looks like: >> >> samba:~# ls -al /media/shares/facility/ >> total 4 >> drwxrws---? 2 root facility? 32 2011-10-07 09:12 . >> drwxr-xr-x 17 root root? ? ?456 2011-10-04 10:33 .. >> -rw-rwSr--? 1 root facility? 83 2011-10-07 09:12 William_testing.txt >> >> samba:~# mount >> /dev/sdak1 on /media/shares/facility type xfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,_netdev) >> >> When I attempt to connect to the share, these is what openLDAP dump on the logs >> >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SRCH >> base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 >> filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SRCH >> attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description >> displayName cn objectClass >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SEARCH RESULT >> tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SRCH >> base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 >> filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SRCH >> attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description >> displayName cn objectClass >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SEARCH RESULT >> tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SRCH >> base="dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 >> filter="(&(sambaSID=s-1-5-21-3488853230-4045497441-2260166743-3524)(objectClass=sambaSamAccount))" >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SRCH attr=uid >> uidNumber gidNumber homeDirectory sambaPwdLastSet sambaPwdCanChange >> sambaPwdMustChange sambaLogonTime sambaLogoffTime sambaKickoffTime cn >> sn displayName sambaHomeDrive sambaHomePath sambaLogonScript >> sambaProfilePath description sambaUserWorkstations sambaSID >> sambaPrimaryGroupSID sambaLMPassword sambaNTPassword sambaDomainName >> objectClass sambaAcctFlags sambaMungedDial sambaBadPasswordCount >> sambaBadPasswordTime sambaPasswordHistory modifyTimestamp >> sambaLogonHours modifyTimestamp uidNumber >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: <= bdb_equality_candidates: >> (sambaSID) not indexed >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SEARCH RESULT >> tag=101 err=0 nentries=1 text= >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SRCH >> base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 >> filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SRCH >> attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description >> displayName cn objectClass >> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SEARCH RESULT >> tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= >> >> On the file server running Samba version 3.2.5, below are the >> corresponding logs when I attempted to connect to the share >> >> Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: connect to service Facility >> by user william >> Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: opendir ./ >> Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: disconnected >> Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: opendir ./ >> >> Anyone notice anything I may be overlooking somewhere? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> William >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 00:37:31 2011 From: hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Burhan Hanoglu) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd In-Reply-To: References: <1319673443.62927.YahooMailNeo@web113808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319675851.31484.YahooMailNeo@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hey William, Can you paste the error message you receive? Also; anything in /var/log/messages and /var/log/syslog ? Sincerely, Burhan ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Muriithi > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 8:06:15 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd > > Burhan, > > On 26 October 2011 19:57, Burhan Hanoglu wrote: >> "path = /media/storage/facility" >> >> Is that supposed to be "/media/shares/facility" ? > > Ah, yea its "/media/shares/facility"? but that was a typo when > drafting the mail as I had been using /media/storage./facility for > testing > > On the system, I have just checked and they match, so this is not the problem > > Regards, > > William >> >> -Burhan >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: William Muriithi >>> To: TLUG mailing list >>> Cc: >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:30:14 PM >>> Subject: [TLUG]: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd >>> >>> Hi pals, >>> >>> I am having a problem with samba that I have not been able to overcome >>> and I wonder if a fresh pair of eyes would find what I am missing. >>> Would really appreciate any suggestion. >>> >>> We have samba authenticating users through openLDAP running in a >>> separate boxes. OpenLDAP is setup with? samba.schema schema and all >>> have been running fine.? I added a new share today and restarted samba >>> but have? not been able to use it.? I get permission related error >>> when I attempt to connect to the share. Below is how the share looks >>> like: >>> >>> [Facility] >>> path = /media/storage/facility >>> read only = no >>> guest ok = no >>> printable = no >>> comment = For facility usage >>> create mask = 0770 >>> directory mask = 0770 >>> force create mode = 0770 >>> force directory mode = 0770 >>> writable = yes >>> browsable = yes >>> #force group = facility >>> #valid users = @facility >>> force group = facility >>> valid users = @facility >>> >>> Below is how the file system looks like: >>> >>> samba:~# ls -al /media/shares/facility/ >>> total 4 >>> drwxrws---? 2 root facility? 32 2011-10-07 09:12 . >>> drwxr-xr-x 17 root root? ? ?456 2011-10-04 10:33 .. >>> -rw-rwSr--? 1 root facility? 83 2011-10-07 09:12 William_testing.txt >>> >>> samba:~# mount >>> /dev/sdak1 on /media/shares/facility type xfs > (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,_netdev) >>> >>> When I attempt to connect to the share, these is what openLDAP dump on > the logs >>> >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SRCH >>> base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 >>> > filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SRCH >>> attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description >>> displayName cn objectClass >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=16 SEARCH RESULT >>> tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SRCH >>> base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 >>> > filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SRCH >>> attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description >>> displayName cn objectClass >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=17 SEARCH RESULT >>> tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SRCH >>> base="dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 >>> > filter="(&(sambaSID=s-1-5-21-3488853230-4045497441-2260166743-3524)(objectClass=sambaSamAccount))" >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SRCH attr=uid >>> uidNumber gidNumber homeDirectory sambaPwdLastSet sambaPwdCanChange >>> sambaPwdMustChange sambaLogonTime sambaLogoffTime sambaKickoffTime cn >>> sn displayName sambaHomeDrive sambaHomePath sambaLogonScript >>> sambaProfilePath description sambaUserWorkstations sambaSID >>> sambaPrimaryGroupSID sambaLMPassword sambaNTPassword sambaDomainName >>> objectClass sambaAcctFlags sambaMungedDial sambaBadPasswordCount >>> sambaBadPasswordTime sambaPasswordHistory modifyTimestamp >>> sambaLogonHours modifyTimestamp uidNumber >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: <= bdb_equality_candidates: >>> (sambaSID) not indexed >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=372036 op=18920 SEARCH RESULT >>> tag=101 err=0 nentries=1 text= >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SRCH >>> base="ou=group,dc=example,dc=local" scope=2 deref=0 >>> > filter="(&(objectClass=sambaGroupMapping)(|(displayName=facility)(cn=facility)))" >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SRCH >>> attr=gidNumber sambaSID sambaGroupType sambaSIDList description >>> displayName cn objectClass >>> Oct 26 19:03:30 ldap slapd[2272]: conn=1370019 op=18 SEARCH RESULT >>> tag=101 err=0 nentries=0 text= >>> >>> On the file server running Samba version 3.2.5, below are the >>> corresponding logs when I attempted to connect to the share >>> >>> Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: connect to service Facility >>> by user william >>> Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: opendir ./ >>> Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: disconnected >>> Oct 26 19:02:59 samba smbd_audit[16126]: opendir ./ >>> >>> Anyone notice anything I may be overlooking somewhere? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> William >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From woon.steven-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 00:52:58 2011 From: woon.steven-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steven Woon) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:52:58 -0400 Subject: Trouble logging into Powerstream E-billing website Message-ID: Sorry for my rant. Just like to know if anyone has the same problem. My email to Powerstream customer service: "I have trouble with logging to https://www.powerstream.ca/app/pages/RESWELCOME.jsp from my PC running Firefox 7.0.1/Ubuntu 10.04. The Account # field does not respond to key strokes. No problem logging into my account using WinXP. Unfortunately, I do most of my Internet banking and transactions stuff with my more secured Ubuntu PC. Looks like I may have to go back to paper billing." Response from Powerstream: "Good evening, thank you for your email below. Sorry for the delay in answering your request, however, I had our webmaster looking into this issue and she had to pass along to the creator of our website, as she has never come across a situation like this before. According to the creator of our website, unfortunately, because Ubuntu is an open source operating system, it does not seem to be compatible with our system and because this is the first and only request like this, at this time we will not be able to assist you with trying to have our system handle Ubuntu. In the future, if we do receive more requests like yours, we may look into further programming which would allow your system to be compatible with ours. Sorry I could not be of assistance to you, but if you do require anything further, I would be happy to assist you. Thank you. (Name withheld to protect the clueless) Senior Customer Relations Rep. POWERSTREAM INC. <1%20877%20963%206900%2C%20ext.%2035213> (clueless)@powerstream.ca" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 01:14:20 2011 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:14:20 -0400 Subject: Trouble logging into Powerstream E-billing website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:52 PM, Steven Woon wrote: > Sorry for my rant.? Just like to know if anyone has the same problem. > > My email to Powerstream customer service: > "I have trouble with logging to > https://www.powerstream.ca/app/pages/RESWELCOME.jsp from my PC running > Firefox 7.0.1/Ubuntu 10.04.? The Account # field does not respond to key > strokes. Are any errors reported if you open the Firefox Error Console? (Ctrl-Shift-J or Tools->Web Developer->Error Console) Using FF 7.0.1/Ubuntu 10.04.2 I can enter numeric digits (the page injects hyphen's automatically) but see no errors reported. I tried disabling JavaScript, but that just stops client-side validation, so that's not a likely cause. (I wonder if you can log in with JavaScript disabled and the properly formatted account number?) Also, do you have the Firebug plugin installed? -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 06:23:14 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:23:14 +0200 Subject: Trouble logging into Powerstream E-billing website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Steven Woon wrote: > Sorry for my rant. Just like to know if anyone has the same problem. > > My email to Powerstream customer service: > "I have trouble with logging to > https://www.powerstream.ca/app/pages/RESWELCOME.jsp from my PC running > Firefox 7.0.1/Ubuntu 10.04. The Account # field does not respond to key > strokes. > > No problem logging into my account using WinXP. Unfortunately, I do most > of my Internet banking and transactions stuff with my more secured Ubuntu > PC. Looks like I may have to go back to paper billing." > > > Response from Powerstream: > "Good evening, thank you for your email below. Sorry for the delay in > answering your request, however, I had our webmaster looking into this issue > and she had to pass along to the creator of our website, as she has never > come across a situation like this before. According to the creator of our > website, unfortunately, because Ubuntu is an open source operating system, > it does not seem to be compatible with our system and because this is the > first and only request like this, at this time we will not be able to assist > you with trying to have our system handle Ubuntu. In the future, if we do > receive more requests like yours, we may look into further programming which > would allow your system to be compatible with ours. > > Sorry I could not be of assistance to you, but if you do require anything > further, I would be happy to assist you. > > Thank you. > > (Name withheld to protect the clueless) > Senior Customer Relations Rep. > POWERSTREAM INC. <1%20877%20963%206900%2C%20ext.%2035213> > (clueless)@powerstream.ca" > At least they did not say that since Ubuntu is an open source system, it is less secure and thus not supported by their web system, some people in Israel got such an answer from Israel banks that believe it or not, still support only IE. Now to your problem, I tried entering numbers to this field (using Ubuntu 11.04 and firefox 7.0) and had no problem entering numbers, I tried letters and could not, so I guess they have JavaScript that validates only numbers. So there is nothing I can see with their web site. -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 12:43:05 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:43:05 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111026212628.GM30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 01:36:31PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Lennart Sorensen >> wrote: >> > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 01:26:25PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> >> Just to be clear here, I meant the problem is solved for the end user. >> >> At least until it breaks again. >> >> >> >> This worked, no apparant acpi problems have surfaced as of yet (as >> >> mentioned in the bug report) and the ps2 keyboard is now working, as >> >> well as all usb devices are detected on boot and are functioning. >> > >> > Yes but almost certainly any usb devices connected later won't work. >> >> The web cam hot plugs fine. As do the two mice and the two keyboards >> that are connectd to the box. He uses the wireless one's from across >> the room. He's using a 42 in HDTV as a monitor. > > Hmm, well certainly renaming S02udev to K02udev would stop udev. > That clearly isn't what you want. if udevd is called from /etc/rcS.d and that is parsed before rc2.d, its the redundant entry that looks to be the source of the problem. > > Not sure why any new device would get the driver loaded if udev has > been stopped. What appears to have happened is another package installed the redundant S02udev entry in rc2.d. That machine does use parts of the unstable release for AV reasons. Some other reading tells me possible culprit is gdm. Rember the fix was rename the file not remove or move it. Moving it to K leaves the development tree stable > > Any device type that is already handled will stay working with or > without udev. > > New device types that need a driver loaded on the other hand probably > won't. I dunno tried rebooting several times with several different usb devices plugged in afterwords. All seemed to work out ok. Got some device for me to try and test it with? > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From woon.steven-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 13:30:51 2011 From: woon.steven-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steven Woon) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:30:51 -0400 Subject: Trouble logging into Powerstream E-billing website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Before I sent my mail to Powerstream, I tried to log in with Chromium too, but with the same failure. Scott, I'll take your suggestion and try to debug the problem tonight. It was just too easy for me to avoid this problem by going back to paper billing. Thanks. --- Steven On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:52 PM, Steven Woon > wrote: > > Sorry for my rant. Just like to know if anyone has the same problem. > > > > My email to Powerstream customer service: > > "I have trouble with logging to > > https://www.powerstream.ca/app/pages/RESWELCOME.jsp from my PC running > > Firefox 7.0.1/Ubuntu 10.04. The Account # field does not respond to key > > strokes. > > Are any errors reported if you open the Firefox Error Console? > (Ctrl-Shift-J or Tools->Web Developer->Error Console) > > Using FF 7.0.1/Ubuntu 10.04.2 I can enter numeric digits (the page > injects hyphen's automatically) but see no errors reported. I tried > disabling JavaScript, but that just stops client-side validation, so > that's not a likely cause. (I wonder if you can log in with > JavaScript disabled and the properly formatted account number?) > > Also, do you have the Firebug plugin installed? > > -- > Scott Elcomb > @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca > > Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems > http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ > > Member of the Pirate Party of Canada > http://www.pirateparty.ca/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 13:56:35 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:56:35 +0200 Subject: Trouble logging into Powerstream E-billing website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Steven Woon wrote: > Before I sent my mail to Powerstream, I tried to log in with Chromium too, > but with the same failure. > > Scott, I'll take your suggestion and try to debug the problem tonight. It > was just too easy for me to avoid this problem by going back to paper > billing. Thanks. > It's good that you sent them the problem. People should be aware that we are not a small minority of crazy people :-) -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 14:56:52 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:56:52 -0400 Subject: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd In-Reply-To: <1319675851.31484.YahooMailNeo-JjjobmVX0cE/JfqJOfUXs/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319673443.62927.YahooMailNeo@web113808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1319675851.31484.YahooMailNeo@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Burhan, Thanks for the response On 26 October 2011 20:37, Burhan Hanoglu wrote: > Hey William, > > Can you paste the error message you receive? Also; anything in /var/log/messages and /var/log/syslog ? > > Sincerely, > Burhan > The logs above are from syslog and were the one that was triggered by smbclient when I had done "tail -f /var/log/syslog" This being Ubuntu, the same logs appears on the message file, so posting it would be a duplicate On the client side, I am essentially getting access denied. root at ubuntu:~# smbclient -d 3 //samba/Facility --user william lp_load_ex: refreshing parameters Initialising global parameters rlimit_max: rlimit_max (1024) below minimum Windows limit (16384) params.c:pm_process() - Processing configuration file "/etc/samba/smb.conf" Processing section "[global]" added interface eth0 ip=fe80::21c:42ff:fe77:6b80%eth0 bcast=fe80::ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff%eth0 netmask=ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:: added interface eth0 ip=192.168.5.124 bcast=192.168.15.255 netmask=255.255.240.0 Client started (version 3.5.4). Enter william's password: resolve_lmhosts: Attempting lmhosts lookup for name samba<0x20> resolve_wins: Attempting wins lookup for name samba<0x20> resolve_wins: WINS server resolution selected and no WINS servers listed. resolve_hosts: Attempting host lookup for name samba<0x20> Connecting to 10.2.3.60 at port 445 Doing spnego session setup (blob length=58) got OID=1.3.6.1.4.1.311.2.2.10 got principal=NONE Got challenge flags: Got NTLMSSP neg_flags=0x608a8215 NTLMSSP: Set final flags: Got NTLMSSP neg_flags=0x60088215 NTLMSSP Sign/Seal - Initialising with flags: Got NTLMSSP neg_flags=0x60088215 Domain=[EXAMPLE] OS=[Unix] Server=[Samba 3.2.5] tree connect failed: NT_STATUS_ACCESS_DENIED Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 15:51:27 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:51:27 +0200 Subject: and yet another death of a big mind Message-ID: Jhon mccarthy the creator of lisp has passed away. http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/24/creator-of-lisp-john-mccarthy-dead-at-84/ -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 15:58:51 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:58:51 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 08:43:05AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > if udevd is called from /etc/rcS.d and that is parsed before rc2.d, > its the redundant entry that looks to be the source of the problem. Yes it is redundant and yes you want it to not try starting twice. So rename it or move it or something. Just DON'T rename it to a kill script. > What appears to have happened is another package installed the > redundant S02udev entry in rc2.d. That machine does use parts of the > unstable release for AV reasons. Some other reading tells me possible > culprit is gdm. > > Rember the fix was rename the file not remove or move it. Moving it to > K leaves the development tree stable The problem is renaming it to K turns it from a 'start udev' script into a 'stop udev' script. That is how sysv init works. That is NOT what you want. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 16:02:04 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:02:04 +0200 Subject: [OT] Request for employment offer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As some of you may know, I am in the process of immigrating to Canada. In order to faciliate the request, I need an employment offer, this is an offer only, not an obligation to hire me. This offer should be from a Canadian business (sole proprietorship, partnership or corporation) registered for at list one year and currently employs 1 or more Canadian citizen or permanent resident. I have a lawyer that will handle all the formalities. I am an experienced developer with reasonable experience as a sysadmin. I am also writing PHP based web systems and websites. I have done many embedded systems projects, either Linux based or no OS at all (on 8 bit microcontrollers). If anyone interested, I can send a detailed resume. Thank you in advance for any help you can offer. -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 16:03:41 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:03:41 -0400 Subject: Trouble logging into Powerstream E-billing website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111027160341.GP30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 08:52:58PM -0400, Steven Woon wrote: > Sorry for my rant. Just like to know if anyone has the same problem. > > My email to Powerstream customer service: > "I have trouble with logging to > https://www.powerstream.ca/app/pages/RESWELCOME.jsp from my PC running > Firefox 7.0.1/Ubuntu 10.04. The Account # field does not respond to key > strokes. Responds fine in iceweasel 7.0 on Debian unstable. Responds fine in google chrome 16.0.904.0 dev on the same system. I see no problem. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 16:22:24 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:22:24 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111027155851.GO30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026151154.GI30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 08:43:05AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> if udevd is called from /etc/rcS.d and that is parsed before rc2.d, >> its the redundant entry that looks to be the source of the problem. > > Yes it is redundant and yes you want it to not try starting twice. > So rename it or move it or something. ?Just DON'T rename it to a kill > script. > >> What appears to have happened is another package installed the >> redundant S02udev entry in rc2.d. That machine does use parts of the >> unstable release for AV reasons. Some other reading tells me possible >> culprit is gdm. >> >> Rember the fix was rename the file not remove or move it. Moving it to >> K leaves the development tree stable > > The problem is renaming it to K turns it from a 'start udev' script into a > 'stop udev' script. ?That is how sysv init works. ?That is NOT what you want. Renaming it to K disables the script which makes it non-functional as a start script, it does not turn it into a stop script. Unless the README file is wrong. To disable a script in this directory, rename it so that it begins with a 'K' and run 'update-rc.d script defaults' to update the order using the script dependencies. For more information see /etc/init.d/README. I don't see what you think is broken. Certainly hot plugging is working now on the machine and in fact some of the buttons which didn't work on the ps2 keyboard are now functioning, so clearly there was a point to the update which caused the initial problem. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 16:36:31 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:36:31 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111027163631.GQ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 12:22:24PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > Renaming it to K disables the script which makes it non-functional as > a start script, it does not turn it into a stop script. Unless the > README file is wrong. No it disables the service by turning it into a stop script. > To disable a script in this directory, rename it so that it begins > with a 'K' and run 'update-rc.d script defaults' to update the order > using the script dependencies. > > For more information see /etc/init.d/README. > > I don't see what you think is broken. Certainly hot plugging is > working now on the machine and in fact some of the buttons which > didn't work on the ps2 keyboard are now functioning, so clearly there > was a point to the update which caused the initial problem. /etc/rc2.d/README: To disable a service in this runlevel, rename its script in this directory so that the new name begins with a 'K' and a two-digit number, where the number is the difference between the two-digit number following the 'S' in its current name, and 100. To re-enable the service, rename the script back to its original name beginning with 'S'. Note the "To disable a service" bit. That means to stop it. It doesn't say "To disable this script". -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 16:49:30 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:49:30 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111027163631.GQ30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026152757.GJ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027163631.GQ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 12:22:24PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> Renaming it to K disables the script which makes it non-functional as >> a start script, it does not turn it into a stop script. Unless the >> README file is wrong. > > No it disables the service by turning it into a stop script. > >> To disable a script in this directory, rename it so that it begins >> with a 'K' and run 'update-rc.d script defaults' to update the order >> using the script dependencies. >> >> For more information see /etc/init.d/README. >> >> I don't see what you think is broken. Certainly hot plugging is >> working now on the machine and in fact some of the buttons which >> didn't work on the ps2 keyboard are now functioning, so clearly there >> was a point to the update which caused the initial problem. > > /etc/rc2.d/README: > > To disable a service in this runlevel, rename its script in this directory > so that the new name begins with a 'K' and a two-digit number, where the > number is the difference between the two-digit number following the 'S' > in its current name, and 100. ?To re-enable the service, rename the script > back to its original name beginning with 'S'. > > Note the "To disable a service" bit. ?That means to stop it. ?It doesn't > say "To disable this script". No it means to disable it in this runlevel. ie. not use it in this runlevel. In development there is a foreknowledge that things will change and maybe even interfere with something it shouldn't. The idea is to provide an avenue to a timely fix. Different process's use different runlevels for different purposes. Why not have the ability to change that feature just by a name change. Don't delete the work just make sure everything has the ability to be reordered correctly. So tell me what is broken here? > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 17:17:17 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:17:17 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027163631.GQ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111027171717.GR30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 12:49:30PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > No it means to disable it in this runlevel. ie. not use it in this runlevel. Yes, that's it. It disables the _service_ in this run level by stopping it. When you move from runlevel to runlevel, anything labeled S## is started, and anything labeled K## is stopped. That's what runlevels are for. Anything not labeled S... or K... does nothing. > In development there is a foreknowledge that things will change and > maybe even interfere with something it shouldn't. The idea is to > provide an avenue to a timely fix. Different process's use different > runlevels for different purposes. Why not have the ability to change > that feature just by a name change. > > Don't delete the work just make sure everything has the ability to be > reordered correctly. > > So tell me what is broken here? If you rename S02udev to K02udev in rc2.d then you are telling the system to stop udev in runlevel 2. So now your system no longer has udev running. Since udev is expected to be running, that is a problem. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 18:45:24 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:45:24 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111027171717.GR30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026163126.GK30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027163631.GQ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027171717.GR30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 12:49:30PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> No it means to disable it in this runlevel. ie. not use it in this runlevel. > > Yes, that's it. ?It disables the _service_ in this run level by > stopping it. ?When you move from runlevel to runlevel, anything labeled > S## is started, and anything labeled K## is stopped. ?That's what > runlevels are for. > > Anything not labeled S... or K... does nothing. > >> In development there is a foreknowledge that things will change and >> maybe even interfere with something it shouldn't. The idea is to >> provide an avenue to a timely fix. Different process's use different >> runlevels for different purposes. Why not have the ability to change >> that feature just by a name change. >> >> Don't delete the work just make sure everything has the ability to be >> reordered correctly. >> >> So tell me what is broken here? > > If you rename S02udev to K02udev in rc2.d then you are telling the > system to stop udev in runlevel 2. ?So now your system no longer has > udev running. > > Since udev is expected to be running, that is a problem. Udev was running and tried to run again from a different runlevel, that was the problem. At this moment the fix for the user works, udev initializes on boot. It detects and deals with devices and applies its rules appropriately. >From my perspective it's about having a condition state of ready for purpose. So what's broken here? > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 19:28:18 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:28:18 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027163631.GQ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027171717.GR30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111027192818.GS30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 02:45:24PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > Udev was running and tried to run again from a different runlevel, > that was the problem. Correct. That was the problem. The workaround provided by the original reporter of the bug on the other hand did not correctly solve that problem. It replaced it with a different problem. That is why the udev package maintainer said in the comment to the bug "Don't do that. It is wrong". > At this moment the fix for the user works, udev initializes on boot. > It detects and deals with devices and applies its rules appropriately. udev is not just for boot, it is for handling all hotplugged devices at runtime. > From my perspective it's about having a condition state of ready for purpose. > > So what's broken here? udev is supposed to be always running. You told it to stop. That is what is broken. You may not have noticed the consequences of that yet, but they still exist. Simply rename the incorrect script to anything you want as long as it doesn't start with K. Then you will have solved the original problem and NOT created a new one. But hey if you think you are smarter than the udev package maintainer, go ahead. Break your system. Who cares. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 19:43:12 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:43:12 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111027192818.GS30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026173058.GL30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027163631.GQ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027171717.GR30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027192818.GS30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 02:45:24PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> Udev was running and tried to run again from a different runlevel, >> that was the problem. > > Correct. ?That was the problem. > > The workaround provided by the original reporter of the bug on the > other hand did not correctly solve that problem. ?It replaced it with > a different problem. ?That is why the udev package maintainer said in > the comment to the bug "Don't do that. ?It is wrong". > >> At this moment the fix for the user works, udev initializes on boot. >> It detects and deals with devices and applies its rules appropriately. > > udev is not just for boot, it is for handling all hotplugged devices > at runtime. > >> From my perspective it's about having a condition state of ready for purpose. >> >> So what's broken here? > > udev is supposed to be always running. ?You told it to stop. ?That is > what is broken. ?You may not have noticed the consequences of that yet, > but they still exist. So if it is stopped why does it detect devices that weren't plugged in when it is first booted. It is not stopped. Udev is just stopped from being called while it is already running. > > Simply rename the incorrect script to anything you want as long as it > doesn't start with K. ?Then you will have solved the original problem > and NOT created a new one. > > But hey if you think you are smarter than the udev package maintainer, > go ahead. ?Break your system. ?Who cares. Nope I'm not smarter than him. Debian just uses LSB headers to deal with package maintainers. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 19:52:22 2011 From: hanoglu_b-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Burhan Hanoglu) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd In-Reply-To: References: <1319673443.62927.YahooMailNeo@web113808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1319675851.31484.YahooMailNeo@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319745142.4730.YahooMailNeo@web113815.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi William, I'm assuming that the user "william" can mount some other share(s) from the same samba server, so there should not be an authentication problem; am I wrong? For testing purpose; if you create a subfolder in "/media/shares/facility/" (or in "/media/storage/facility/") and share that one, I wonder if it can be mounted. Sincerely, Burhan ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Muriithi > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:56:52 AM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd > > Burhan, > > Thanks for the response > > On 26 October 2011 20:37, Burhan Hanoglu wrote: >> Hey William, >> >> Can you paste the error message you receive? Also; anything in > /var/log/messages and /var/log/syslog ? >> >> Sincerely, >> Burhan >> > > The logs above are from syslog and were the one that was? triggered by > smbclient? when I had done "tail -f /var/log/syslog" This being > Ubuntu, the same logs appears on the message file, so posting it would > be a duplicate > > On the client side, I am essentially getting access denied. > > root at ubuntu:~# smbclient -d 3? //samba/Facility --user william > lp_load_ex: refreshing parameters > Initialising global parameters > rlimit_max: rlimit_max (1024) below minimum Windows limit (16384) > params.c:pm_process() - Processing configuration file > "/etc/samba/smb.conf" > Processing section "[global]" > added interface eth0 ip=fe80::21c:42ff:fe77:6b80%eth0 > bcast=fe80::ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff%eth0 netmask=ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:: > added interface eth0 ip=192.168.5.124 bcast=192.168.15.255 netmask=255.255.240.0 > Client started (version 3.5.4). > Enter william's password: > resolve_lmhosts: Attempting lmhosts lookup for name samba<0x20> > resolve_wins: Attempting wins lookup for name samba<0x20> > resolve_wins: WINS server resolution selected and no WINS servers listed. > resolve_hosts: Attempting host lookup for name samba<0x20> > Connecting to 10.2.3.60 at port 445 > Doing spnego session setup (blob length=58) > got OID=1.3.6.1.4.1.311.2.2.10 > got principal=NONE > Got challenge flags: > Got NTLMSSP neg_flags=0x608a8215 > NTLMSSP: Set final flags: > Got NTLMSSP neg_flags=0x60088215 > NTLMSSP Sign/Seal - Initialising with flags: > Got NTLMSSP neg_flags=0x60088215 > Domain=[EXAMPLE] OS=[Unix] Server=[Samba 3.2.5] > tree connect failed: NT_STATUS_ACCESS_DENIED > > Regards, > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 19:58:46 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:58:46 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: References: <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027163631.GQ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027171717.GR30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027192818.GS30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111027195846.GT30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 03:43:12PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > So if it is stopped why does it detect devices that weren't plugged in > when it is first booted. If the driver is already loaded, the kernel will detect those devices just fine. > It is not stopped. Udev is just stopped from being called while it is > already running. So you have a udevd running? If you are running in runlevel 2 with a script named K02udev in /etc/rc2.d then sysvinit says udev must be stopped. If you do have udevd still running, then there must be a bug in the init system, because that shouldn't be possible. > Nope I'm not smarter than him. > > Debian just uses LSB headers to deal with package maintainers. LSB headers deal with dependancies/ordering. Not deciding if things should or should not be running. It also includes default values for how to generate the runlevel links, but they are only defaults, they have no influence on what actually happens. LSB headers don't deal with package maintainers. Package maintainers use them to tell init what order things need to be started in. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 27 20:15:48 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:15:48 -0400 Subject: Solved - Debian update - keyboard unresponsive In-Reply-To: <20111027195846.GT30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111026212628.GM30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027155851.GO30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027163631.GQ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027171717.GR30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027192818.GS30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111027195846.GT30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 03:43:12PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> So if it is stopped why does it detect devices that weren't plugged in >> when it is first booted. > > If the driver is already loaded, the kernel will detect those devices > just fine. > >> It is not stopped. Udev is just stopped from being called while it is >> already running. > > So you have a udevd running? ?If you are running in runlevel 2 with > a script named K02udev in /etc/rc2.d then sysvinit says udev must > be stopped. > > If you do have udevd still running, then there must be a bug in the init > system, because that shouldn't be possible. > >> Nope I'm not smarter than him. >> >> Debian just uses LSB headers to deal with package maintainers. > > LSB headers deal with dependancies/ordering. ?Not deciding if things > should or should not be running. ?It also includes default values for > how to generate the runlevel links, but they are only defaults, they > have no influence on what actually happens. > > LSB headers don't deal with package maintainers. ?Package maintainers > use them to tell init what order things need to be started in. Debian uses the LSB header to order the boot sequence for Dependency Based Boot. For all intents and purposes runlevels 2-5 are treated the same unless there are special device considerations. Udev starts and runs now from rcS.d. without the conflicting instance being called. It also leaves open the option to revert from Dependency Based Boot. So what's broken here? > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 13:20:07 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:20:07 -0400 Subject: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd In-Reply-To: <1319745142.4730.YahooMailNeo-JjjobmVX0cF+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319673443.62927.YahooMailNeo@web113808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1319675851.31484.YahooMailNeo@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1319745142.4730.YahooMailNeo@web113815.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Thanks again > > I'm assuming that the user "william" can mount some other share(s) from the same samba server, so there should not be an authentication problem; am I wrong? Yea, can authenticate to other shares, so the username password combination is fine. > > For testing purpose; if you create a subfolder in "/media/shares/facility/" (or in "/media/storage/facility/") and share that one, I wonder if it can be mounted. I am suspecting there is something broken with openLDAP. It may not be handling the group properties properly. I dumped the database yesterday into and ldif file and went through it and the groups seems fine. Planning to set up an new LDAP and test some changes > > Sincerely, > Burhan > Thank you again Burhan and great weekend > > William > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: William Muriithi >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Cc: >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:56:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Samba issues - Any one see anything odd >> >> Burhan, >> >> Thanks for the response >> >> On 26 October 2011 20:37, Burhan Hanoglu wrote: >>> ?Hey William, >>> >>> ?Can you paste the error message you receive? Also; anything in >> /var/log/messages and /var/log/syslog ? >>> >>> ?Sincerely, >>> ?Burhan >>> >> >> The logs above are from syslog and were the one that was? triggered by >> smbclient? when I had done "tail -f /var/log/syslog" This being >> Ubuntu, the same logs appears on the message file, so posting it would >> be a duplicate >> >> On the client side, I am essentially getting access denied. >> >> root at ubuntu:~# smbclient -d 3? //samba/Facility --user william >> lp_load_ex: refreshing parameters >> Initialising global parameters >> rlimit_max: rlimit_max (1024) below minimum Windows limit (16384) >> params.c:pm_process() - Processing configuration file >> "/etc/samba/smb.conf" >> Processing section "[global]" >> added interface eth0 ip=fe80::21c:42ff:fe77:6b80%eth0 >> bcast=fe80::ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff%eth0 netmask=ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:: >> added interface eth0 ip=192.168.5.124 bcast=192.168.15.255 netmask=255.255.240.0 >> Client started (version 3.5.4). >> Enter william's password: >> resolve_lmhosts: Attempting lmhosts lookup for name samba<0x20> >> resolve_wins: Attempting wins lookup for name samba<0x20> >> resolve_wins: WINS server resolution selected and no WINS servers listed. >> resolve_hosts: Attempting host lookup for name samba<0x20> >> Connecting to 10.2.3.60 at port 445 >> Doing spnego session setup (blob length=58) >> got OID=1.3.6.1.4.1.311.2.2.10 >> got principal=NONE >> Got challenge flags: >> Got NTLMSSP neg_flags=0x608a8215 >> NTLMSSP: Set final flags: >> Got NTLMSSP neg_flags=0x60088215 >> NTLMSSP Sign/Seal - Initialising with flags: >> Got NTLMSSP neg_flags=0x60088215 >> Domain=[EXAMPLE] OS=[Unix] Server=[Samba 3.2.5] >> tree connect failed: NT_STATUS_ACCESS_DENIED >> >> Regards, >> >> William >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From paul-HzDep54A8sA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 15:21:25 2011 From: paul-HzDep54A8sA at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:21:25 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3OZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi. Despite being in a place where Windows 7 is the dominant desktop OS, I run Ubuntu 10.04.3 on my work deskop and laptop. I do have a Windows 7 VM running under Virtualbox, but it's only for Outlook 2010 and any Word format docs that LibreOffice won't open properly. When we had Exchange 2003, I used Evolution as the mail client too, and had no M$ on my workstation. pm (P.S. Just to comment on Lennart's admission to starting with SLS 1.03. My first distribution of Linux was also SLS. Not sure what version, but I remember the kernel being 0.96. I downloaded the 30-odd diskettes from a BBS using my 2400 baud modem, and installed it on my 486DX50 with 4MB RAM. I can honestly say, it was love at first sight, and from there, I only ran Linux. ) On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, William Park wrote: > Just curious... which Linux distro do you use at work? > -- *Paul Mora* email: paul-HzDep54A8sA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 15:32:35 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:32:35 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111028153235.GU30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:21:25AM -0400, Paul Mora wrote: > Despite being in a place where Windows 7 is the dominant desktop OS, I run > Ubuntu 10.04.3 on my work deskop and laptop. I do have a Windows 7 VM > running under Virtualbox, but it's only for Outlook 2010 and any Word format > docs that LibreOffice won't open properly. When we had Exchange 2003, I used > Evolution as the mail client too, and had no M$ on my workstation. > > pm > > (P.S. Just to comment on Lennart's admission to starting with SLS 1.03. My > first distribution of Linux was also SLS. Not sure what version, but I > remember the kernel being 0.96. I downloaded the 30-odd diskettes from a BBS > using my 2400 baud modem, and installed it on my 486DX50 with 4MB RAM. I can > honestly say, it was love at first sight, and from there, I only ran Linux. > ) Yeah it took at while at 2400. I installed on a DX50 with 8MB ram and 213MB disk. It was huge (at the time). I think I gave linux 80MB of the disk. To think it was actually feasible to backup the HD contents to a small stack of floppies, then repartition and reformat the disk and restore the data in a couple of hours. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 18:26:44 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:26:44 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <20111028153235.GU30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111028153235.GU30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EAAF3E4.30804@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > To think it was actually feasible to backup the HD contents to a small > stack of floppies, then repartition and reformat the disk and restore > the data in a couple of hours. > > Only to find you had a bad floppy in the pile... ;-) BTW, I used to have a QIC-80 tape drive attached to my floppy controller. I could put an entire drive image on one of those tapes, a couple of times over and still have space on it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 28 18:36:39 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:36:39 -0400 Subject: Which Linux distro do you use at work? In-Reply-To: <4EAAF3E4.30804-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1319122228.83663.YahooMailNeo@web113402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20111028153235.GU30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EAAF3E4.30804@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111028183639.GV30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 02:26:44PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Only to find you had a bad floppy in the pile... ;-) > > BTW, I used to have a QIC-80 tape drive attached to my floppy > controller. I could put an entire drive image on one of those > tapes, a couple of times over and still have space on it. Oh I have a QIC-120 in the 486 too. Not quite big enough to fit a 213MB drive entirely on one tape, but two would do. I wonder if it still works. I have a collection of .mod files on a tape. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 29 15:17:33 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:17:33 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much Message-ID: Lennart, I don't know what it is about me that brings out the troll in otherwise apparantly normal people. But there it is. When someone bangs on me as hard as you did, I have to defend my position and that position is, I quote you here: "In other words, don't take advice from people that don't know what they are doing, ..." Well Lennart that's your opinion, here's mine. You had little desire to assist with the problem, until someone thanked me for posting my experience. Then you tried to use your belief in your own superior knowledge to belittle the solution, which in fact was not my solution but simply a solution provided by someone else experiencing the same difficulties. If you notice, what I did was not exactly the same as what was posted. Not that it matters, or does it? You tell me you're the theorist, I'm a system's integrator. You have to remember who I am in all this, I was helping the system operator restore functionality. Debian developers started using Dependency Based Boot around 2009. Squeeze is the first to use it as default in a product release. It is to deal with the fact the kernel is becoming more event driven. I won't bore you with the abstract details of the transitional problems of migration, even in respect of moving a temporary virtual file system to a static one because you should know all this. However, you apparantly don't care enough about the problem. Instead you try and piss all over me when I asked a sincere question. What you didn't know, before you tried to pick on me, was where the problem was sourced, yet you pretended you did and worse, you assumed that I didn't. Here's some background on how Debian maintainers are dealing with event driven kernels, which is what this is really all about. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/03/msg02640.html When I first joined this list there were about sixty users sharing their experiences with integrating this OS into more mainstream use. I do my small bit to help users adapt. Much in the same way that my old friend Jan Carlson did. One day I asked him why he sold me a cd with Red Hat on it for five bucks at a TLUG meeting and then gave me two thousand dollars worth of telephone support? He said "I'm just an old Unix fart. Besides I"m beta testing for them and I like to keep my hand in." Thanks Jan, god bless you. Lennart, wise up. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From woon.steven-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 29 16:15:15 2011 From: woon.steven-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Steven Woon) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:15:15 -0400 Subject: Trouble logging into Powerstream E-billing website In-Reply-To: <20111027160341.GP30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111027160341.GP30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Thanks for your responses, folks. I got that figured out. Probably 90% my fault here. Somehow, the Account # box has the word "MOTOROLA", which was actually my old username for a lot of less critical sign-in accounts. Not sure how I managed to get that keyed in, when that box only accepts numbers. Also, because most of my other e-billing uses usernames, I tried to sign in using what I though was my current username, one that does not contain any numbers. Naturally, fooled by the word "MOTOROLA" and did not realized I can only enter numbers as in my account number. BTW, who remembers account numbers? Once again, thanks guys. --- Steven On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 08:52:58PM -0400, Steven Woon wrote: > > Sorry for my rant. Just like to know if anyone has the same problem. > > > > My email to Powerstream customer service: > > "I have trouble with logging to > > https://www.powerstream.ca/app/pages/RESWELCOME.jsp from my PC running > > Firefox 7.0.1/Ubuntu 10.04. The Account # field does not respond to key > > strokes. > > Responds fine in iceweasel 7.0 on Debian unstable. > Responds fine in google chrome 16.0.904.0 dev on the same system. > > I see no problem. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 05:47:52 2011 From: ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 01:47:52 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> On 29/10/11 11:17, Russell Reiter wrote: > Lennart, I don't know what it is about me that brings out the troll in > otherwise apparantly normal people. But there it is. When someone > bangs on me as hard as you did, I have to defend my position and that > position is, I quote you here: > > "In other words, don't take advice from people that don't know what they > are doing, ..." > > Well Lennart that's your opinion, here's mine. > > You had little desire to assist with the problem, until someone > thanked me for posting my experience. Then you tried to use your > belief in your own superior knowledge to belittle the solution, which > in fact was not my solution but simply a solution provided by someone > else experiencing the same difficulties. > > If you notice, what I did was not exactly the same as what was posted. > Not that it matters, or does it? You tell me you're the theorist, I'm > a system's integrator. You have to remember who I am in all this, I > was helping the system operator restore functionality. > > Debian developers started using Dependency Based Boot around 2009. > Squeeze is the first to use it as default in a product release. It is > to deal with the fact the kernel is becoming more event driven. I > won't bore you with the abstract details of the transitional problems > of migration, even in respect of moving a temporary virtual file > system to a static one because you should know all this. However, you > apparantly don't care enough about the problem. Instead you try and > piss all over me when I asked a sincere question. > > What you didn't know, before you tried to pick on me, was where the > problem was sourced, yet you pretended you did and worse, you assumed > that I didn't. > > Here's some background on how Debian maintainers are dealing with > event driven kernels, which is what this is really all about. > > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/03/msg02640.html > > When I first joined this list there were about sixty users sharing > their experiences with integrating this OS into more mainstream use. > > I do my small bit to help users adapt. Much in the same way that my > old friend Jan Carlson did. One day I asked him why he sold me a cd > with Red Hat on it for five bucks at a TLUG meeting and then gave me > two thousand dollars worth of telephone support? > > He said "I'm just an old Unix fart. Besides I"m beta testing for them > and I like to keep my hand in." > > Thanks Jan, god bless you. > > Lennart, wise up. I have to say both you and Lennart appeared to be talking past each other. In a normal boot process does the os pass through runlevel 2? Because if it does then the fact that udev gets started in rc.S (typo?) and killed in runlevel 2 but you still have udev running is a mystery to me also. At the very least what Lennart is trying to warn you about is that when you switch to runlevel 2, the K script is supposed to stop udev. Scripts beginning with K are kill scripts. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 06:25:29 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 08:25:29 +0200 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: <4EACE508.9050005-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 7:47 AM, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > On 29/10/11 11:17, Russell Reiter wrote: > >> Lennart, I don't know what it is about me that brings out the troll in >> otherwise apparantly normal people. But there it is. When someone >> bangs on me as hard as you did, I have to defend my position and that >> position is, I quote you here: >> >> "In other words, don't take advice from people that don't know what they >> are doing, ..." >> >> Well Lennart that's your opinion, here's mine. >> >> You had little desire to assist with the problem, until someone >> thanked me for posting my experience. Then you tried to use your >> belief in your own superior knowledge to belittle the solution, which >> in fact was not my solution but simply a solution provided by someone >> else experiencing the same difficulties. >> >> If you notice, what I did was not exactly the same as what was posted. >> Not that it matters, or does it? You tell me you're the theorist, I'm >> a system's integrator. You have to remember who I am in all this, I >> was helping the system operator restore functionality. >> >> Debian developers started using Dependency Based Boot around 2009. >> Squeeze is the first to use it as default in a product release. It is >> to deal with the fact the kernel is becoming more event driven. I >> won't bore you with the abstract details of the transitional problems >> of migration, even in respect of moving a temporary virtual file >> system to a static one because you should know all this. However, you >> apparantly don't care enough about the problem. Instead you try and >> piss all over me when I asked a sincere question. >> >> What you didn't know, before you tried to pick on me, was where the >> problem was sourced, yet you pretended you did and worse, you assumed >> that I didn't. >> >> Here's some background on how Debian maintainers are dealing with >> event driven kernels, which is what this is really all about. >> >> http://lists.debian.org/**debian-devel/2005/03/msg02640.**html >> >> When I first joined this list there were about sixty users sharing >> their experiences with integrating this OS into more mainstream use. >> >> I do my small bit to help users adapt. Much in the same way that my >> old friend Jan Carlson did. One day I asked him why he sold me a cd >> with Red Hat on it for five bucks at a TLUG meeting and then gave me >> two thousand dollars worth of telephone support? >> >> He said "I'm just an old Unix fart. Besides I"m beta testing for them >> and I like to keep my hand in." >> >> Thanks Jan, god bless you. >> >> Lennart, wise up. >> > > I have to say both you and Lennart appeared to be talking past each other. > In a normal boot process does the os pass through runlevel 2? > > Because if it does then the fact that udev gets started in rc.S (typo?) > and killed in runlevel 2 but you still have udev running is a mystery to me > also. > > At the very least what Lennart is trying to warn you about is that when > you switch to runlevel 2, the K script is supposed to stop udev. Scripts > beginning with K are kill scripts. > > As much as I remember, scripts prefix with K are executed as stop only when you exit a runlevel,, that means that in this case udev is killed when you exit the system (or switch runlevel) -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 09:18:04 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 05:18:04 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: <4EACE508.9050005-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 1:47 AM, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > On 29/10/11 11:17, Russell Reiter wrote: >> >> Lennart, I don't know what it is about me that brings out the troll in >> otherwise apparantly normal people. But there it is. When someone >> bangs on me as hard as you did, I have to defend my position and that >> position is, I quote you here: >> >> "In other words, don't take advice from people that don't know what they >> are doing, ..." >> >> Well Lennart that's your opinion, here's mine. >> >> You had little desire to assist with the problem, until someone >> thanked me for posting my experience. Then you tried to use your >> belief in your own superior knowledge to belittle the solution, which >> in fact was not my solution but simply a solution provided by someone >> else experiencing the same difficulties. >> >> If you notice, what I did was not exactly the same as what was posted. >> Not that it matters, or does it? You tell me you're the theorist, I'm >> a system's integrator. ?You have to remember who I am in all this, I >> was helping the system operator restore functionality. >> >> Debian developers started using Dependency Based Boot around 2009. >> Squeeze is the first to use it as default in a product release. It is >> to deal with the fact the kernel is becoming more event driven. I >> won't bore you with the abstract details of the transitional problems >> of migration, even in respect of moving a temporary virtual file >> system to a static one because you should know all this. However, you >> apparantly don't care enough about the problem. Instead you try and >> piss all over me when I asked a sincere question. >> >> What you didn't know, before you tried to pick on me, was where the >> problem was sourced, yet you pretended you did and worse, you assumed >> that I didn't. >> >> Here's some background on how Debian maintainers are dealing with >> event driven kernels, which is what this is really all about. >> >> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/03/msg02640.html >> >> When I first joined this list there were about sixty users sharing >> their experiences with integrating this OS into more mainstream use. >> >> I do my small bit to help users adapt. Much in the same way that my >> old friend Jan Carlson did. One day I asked him why he sold me a cd >> with Red Hat on it for five bucks at a TLUG meeting and then gave me >> two thousand dollars worth of telephone support? >> >> He said "I'm just an old Unix fart. Besides I"m beta testing for them >> and I like to keep my hand in." >> >> Thanks Jan, god bless you. >> >> Lennart, wise up. > > I have to say both you and Lennart appeared to be talking past each other. > In a normal boot process does the os pass through runlevel 2? > > Because if it does then the fact that udev gets started in rc.S (typo?) and > killed in runlevel 2 but you still have udev running is a mystery to me > also. > > At the very least what Lennart is trying to warn you about is that when you > switch to runlevel 2, the K script is supposed to stop udev. Scripts > beginning with K are kill scripts. Lennart wasn't trying to warn me about anything he was trying to self aggrandize. He didn't understand the problem, he presumed syvinit, even though Debian is now using Dependency Based Boot. Most importantly he did not try to help in the first place, he just criticized without knowledge or understanding. He was not trying to help he was trying to put down. There is a big difference. > > Ivan. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 09:47:55 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 11:47:55 +0200 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think this argument is not the topic of the list. If you Russell have any problems with Lennart, I think it would be better if you solve them between you. I am not saying that Lennart is right or that you are right. I only say that I think this issue should be solved off list. -- Ori Idan On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Russell Reiter wrote: > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 1:47 AM, Ivan Avery Frey > wrote: > > On 29/10/11 11:17, Russell Reiter wrote: > >> > >> Lennart, I don't know what it is about me that brings out the troll in > >> otherwise apparantly normal people. But there it is. When someone > >> bangs on me as hard as you did, I have to defend my position and that > >> position is, I quote you here: > >> > >> "In other words, don't take advice from people that don't know what they > >> are doing, ..." > >> > >> Well Lennart that's your opinion, here's mine. > >> > >> You had little desire to assist with the problem, until someone > >> thanked me for posting my experience. Then you tried to use your > >> belief in your own superior knowledge to belittle the solution, which > >> in fact was not my solution but simply a solution provided by someone > >> else experiencing the same difficulties. > >> > >> If you notice, what I did was not exactly the same as what was posted. > >> Not that it matters, or does it? You tell me you're the theorist, I'm > >> a system's integrator. You have to remember who I am in all this, I > >> was helping the system operator restore functionality. > >> > >> Debian developers started using Dependency Based Boot around 2009. > >> Squeeze is the first to use it as default in a product release. It is > >> to deal with the fact the kernel is becoming more event driven. I > >> won't bore you with the abstract details of the transitional problems > >> of migration, even in respect of moving a temporary virtual file > >> system to a static one because you should know all this. However, you > >> apparantly don't care enough about the problem. Instead you try and > >> piss all over me when I asked a sincere question. > >> > >> What you didn't know, before you tried to pick on me, was where the > >> problem was sourced, yet you pretended you did and worse, you assumed > >> that I didn't. > >> > >> Here's some background on how Debian maintainers are dealing with > >> event driven kernels, which is what this is really all about. > >> > >> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/03/msg02640.html > >> > >> When I first joined this list there were about sixty users sharing > >> their experiences with integrating this OS into more mainstream use. > >> > >> I do my small bit to help users adapt. Much in the same way that my > >> old friend Jan Carlson did. One day I asked him why he sold me a cd > >> with Red Hat on it for five bucks at a TLUG meeting and then gave me > >> two thousand dollars worth of telephone support? > >> > >> He said "I'm just an old Unix fart. Besides I"m beta testing for them > >> and I like to keep my hand in." > >> > >> Thanks Jan, god bless you. > >> > >> Lennart, wise up. > > > > I have to say both you and Lennart appeared to be talking past each > other. > > In a normal boot process does the os pass through runlevel 2? > > > > Because if it does then the fact that udev gets started in rc.S (typo?) > and > > killed in runlevel 2 but you still have udev running is a mystery to me > > also. > > > > At the very least what Lennart is trying to warn you about is that when > you > > switch to runlevel 2, the K script is supposed to stop udev. Scripts > > beginning with K are kill scripts. > > Lennart wasn't trying to warn me about anything he was trying to self > aggrandize. He didn't understand the problem, he presumed syvinit, > even though Debian is now using Dependency Based Boot. Most > importantly he did not try to help in the first place, he just > criticized without knowledge or understanding. He was not trying to > help he was trying to put down. There is a big difference. > > > > > > > Ivan. > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 10:16:30 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 06:16:30 -0400 Subject: Grant Officer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another (final?) update via Jim Mercer: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Grant's ashes were interred along side his father's, in a small cemetery, overlooking the Conestoga river. The ceremony was rather informal, and provided opportunities to all attending to have a word, or to just provide their presence. A good selection of his family, friends and community were there. I think Grant would have been pleased with the way things went. A small gathering happened at the Duke of Wellington in Waterloo. A few beers consumed, a few stories swapped. All was good. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 10:27:23 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 06:27:23 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 5:47 AM, Ori Idan wrote: > I think this argument is not the topic of the list. > If you Russell have any problems with Lennart, I think it would be better if > you solve them between you. > I am not saying that Lennart is right or that you are right. I only say that > I think this issue should be solved off list. I didn't have any problem with Lennart till he started hammering on me about something he did not fully understand, nor care to help with in the first place. He did not respond in order to help, yet he responded eleven times to criticize. He didn't respond privately, he responded on the list. Lennart presumed to tell me that I was pretending I was smarter than the udev maintainer. The subtext of that is that he is at least as smart as the maintainer and I am not. He selectively snipped my posts, which obfuscated the content of the thread. I don't claim to be smart. I claim experience and a certain plodding ability to solve problems related to the linux operating system. I started using linux around 1995 when I could afford to buy my first computer and I'v had to adapt and change a lot in order to keep functional. When I need help understanding a problem I ask for that help. When I ask for help in helping someone else, it's nice if this list is helpful. Lennart was not being nice nor helpful. Help I appreciate. Someone posting message after message in order to make themselves appear expert in something where they are not, in this case LSB init, hijacks the thread and obfuscates the learning process I engage myself in. > > -- > Ori Idan > > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Russell Reiter > wrote: >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 1:47 AM, Ivan Avery Frey >> wrote: >> > On 29/10/11 11:17, Russell Reiter wrote: >> >> >> >> Lennart, I don't know what it is about me that brings out the troll in >> >> otherwise apparantly normal people. But there it is. When someone >> >> bangs on me as hard as you did, I have to defend my position and that >> >> position is, I quote you here: >> >> >> >> "In other words, don't take advice from people that don't know what >> >> they >> >> are doing, ..." >> >> >> >> Well Lennart that's your opinion, here's mine. >> >> >> >> You had little desire to assist with the problem, until someone >> >> thanked me for posting my experience. Then you tried to use your >> >> belief in your own superior knowledge to belittle the solution, which >> >> in fact was not my solution but simply a solution provided by someone >> >> else experiencing the same difficulties. >> >> >> >> If you notice, what I did was not exactly the same as what was posted. >> >> Not that it matters, or does it? You tell me you're the theorist, I'm >> >> a system's integrator. ?You have to remember who I am in all this, I >> >> was helping the system operator restore functionality. >> >> >> >> Debian developers started using Dependency Based Boot around 2009. >> >> Squeeze is the first to use it as default in a product release. It is >> >> to deal with the fact the kernel is becoming more event driven. I >> >> won't bore you with the abstract details of the transitional problems >> >> of migration, even in respect of moving a temporary virtual file >> >> system to a static one because you should know all this. However, you >> >> apparantly don't care enough about the problem. Instead you try and >> >> piss all over me when I asked a sincere question. >> >> >> >> What you didn't know, before you tried to pick on me, was where the >> >> problem was sourced, yet you pretended you did and worse, you assumed >> >> that I didn't. >> >> >> >> Here's some background on how Debian maintainers are dealing with >> >> event driven kernels, which is what this is really all about. >> >> >> >> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/03/msg02640.html >> >> >> >> When I first joined this list there were about sixty users sharing >> >> their experiences with integrating this OS into more mainstream use. >> >> >> >> I do my small bit to help users adapt. Much in the same way that my >> >> old friend Jan Carlson did. One day I asked him why he sold me a cd >> >> with Red Hat on it for five bucks at a TLUG meeting and then gave me >> >> two thousand dollars worth of telephone support? >> >> >> >> He said "I'm just an old Unix fart. Besides I"m beta testing for them >> >> and I like to keep my hand in." >> >> >> >> Thanks Jan, god bless you. >> >> >> >> Lennart, wise up. >> > >> > I have to say both you and Lennart appeared to be talking past each >> > other. >> > In a normal boot process does the os pass through runlevel 2? >> > >> > Because if it does then the fact that udev gets started in rc.S (typo?) >> > and >> > killed in runlevel 2 but you still have udev running is a mystery to me >> > also. >> > >> > At the very least what Lennart is trying to warn you about is that when >> > you >> > switch to runlevel 2, the K script is supposed to stop udev. Scripts >> > beginning with K are kill scripts. >> >> Lennart wasn't trying to warn me about anything he was trying to self >> aggrandize. He didn't understand the problem, he presumed syvinit, >> even though Debian is now using Dependency Based Boot. Most >> importantly he did not try to help in the first place, he just >> criticized without knowledge or understanding. He was not trying to >> help he was trying to put down. There is a big difference. >> >> >> >> > >> > Ivan. >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 30 15:53:43 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 11:53:43 -0400 Subject: Weird Local Network Problem Message-ID: This is a little odd. I have a WD MyBookWorld drive on my local network. It has 3 pre-configured shares, Public, Download, and Configuration. I have Public currently mounted on my desktop. Also, my PS3 can access the files in Public through the built-in DLNA server on the MyBook. However, as of this morning, I cannot mount or browse any of the shares on the MyBook from any computer on the network, even a Windows netbook. Even though Public is still mounted on my main Linux desktop, and I can transfer files to it, I cannot see it the shares otherwise. In fact, if I go into Nautilus and go to Network, I cannot even browse the 'Windows Network' where the MyBook usually shows up. I did try to create some Samba shares on my main desktop the other day, but I don't know how that could affect all of the machines, could it? I don't even know where to start looking. I don't want to change anything for fear of losing even that one share that I have access to... Help? -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 14:39:36 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:39:36 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111031143936.GW30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 08:25:29AM +0200, Ori Idan wrote: > As much as I remember, scripts prefix with K are executed as stop only > when you exit a runlevel,, that means that in this case udev is killed when > you exit the system (or switch runlevel) No, actually all scripts in a run level are executed when you enter that runlevel. Most are executed as start scripts, some as stop. Some people would have a runlevel setup for doing backups, and another for normal operation. Switching to the backup level would stop various services then the backup could run, and then switching back would start the services again. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 15:19:55 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:19:55 -0400 Subject: [OT] Bittorrent and Networking Message-ID: I have two linux machines on my network, with a Linksys WRT54G router (running Tomato). If I run Transmission bittorrent client on one machine, it's okay, but if both are running Transmission, the whole network grinds to a halt. Even if I put a speed limit on both clients, so that each only uses a small percentage of the bandwidth (admittedly slim at around 2 Mb), it is still impossible to do anything else on the network. Has anyone encountered a situation like this? I am a total beginner when it comes to configuring routers, beyond port forwarding. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 15:39:12 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:39:12 +0200 Subject: [OT] Bittorrent and Networking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > I have two linux machines on my network, with a Linksys WRT54G router > (running Tomato). If I run Transmission bittorrent client on one > machine, it's okay, but if both are running Transmission, the whole > network grinds to a halt. Even if I put a speed limit on both clients, > so that each only uses a small percentage of the bandwidth (admittedly > slim at around 2 Mb), it is still impossible to do anything else on > the network. > > Has anyone encountered a situation like this? I am a total beginner > when it comes to configuring routers, beyond port forwarding. > Did you limit both upload and download speeds? It might be that two bittorents are sending a lot of data and that slows down the network. -- Ori Idan > -- > Thomas Milne > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From do.ming.lum-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 15:47:53 2011 From: do.ming.lum-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Do-Ming Lum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:47:53 -0400 Subject: [OT] Bittorrent and Networking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In addition to limiting speed, did you also limit the number of connections used by each client? I have found (on Windows not LInux), that if I limit the number of connections that my bittorrent client uses to between 80 and 160 connections, I don't actually need to limit the speed. On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Ori Idan wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Thomas Milne < > thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> I have two linux machines on my network, with a Linksys WRT54G router >> (running Tomato). If I run Transmission bittorrent client on one >> machine, it's okay, but if both are running Transmission, the whole >> network grinds to a halt. Even if I put a speed limit on both clients, >> so that each only uses a small percentage of the bandwidth (admittedly >> slim at around 2 Mb), it is still impossible to do anything else on >> the network. >> >> Has anyone encountered a situation like this? I am a total beginner >> when it comes to configuring routers, beyond port forwarding. >> > > Did you limit both upload and download speeds? > It might be that two bittorents are sending a lot of data and that slows > down the network. > > -- > Ori Idan > > >> -- >> Thomas Milne >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 16:23:49 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:23:49 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111031162349.GX30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 05:18:04AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > Lennart wasn't trying to warn me about anything he was trying to self > aggrandize. He didn't understand the problem, he presumed syvinit, > even though Debian is now using Dependency Based Boot. Most > importantly he did not try to help in the first place, he just > criticized without knowledge or understanding. He was not trying to > help he was trying to put down. There is a big difference. What you read into other peoples messages is entirely _your_problem_. insserv still uses the symlink files like sysvinit, but not entirely the same way, just mostly. For example: lennartsorensen:~# ls -l /etc/*/*pulseaudio -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1166 Oct 1 08:18 /etc/default/pulseaudio -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2227 Oct 1 08:18 /etc/init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Sep 27 2010 /etc/rc1.d/K01pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Oct 19 14:08 /etc/rc2.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Oct 19 14:08 /etc/rc3.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Oct 19 14:08 /etc/rc4.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Oct 19 14:08 /etc/rc5.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio lennartsorensen:~# insserv -r pulseaudio lennartsorensen:~# ls -l /etc/*/*pulseaudio -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1166 Oct 1 08:18 /etc/default/pulseaudio -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2227 Oct 1 08:18 /etc/init.d/pulseaudio lennartsorensen:~# insserv -d pulseaudio lennartsorensen:~# ls -l /etc/*/*pulseaudio -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1166 Oct 1 08:18 /etc/default/pulseaudio -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2227 Oct 1 08:18 /etc/init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc1.d/K01pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc2.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc3.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc4.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc5.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio So the K and S scripts still apply. They are what are used to determine what should be started and stopped in a given runlevel by insserv. What insserv changes is the fact that they no longer run one at a time based only on the names of the scripts. Things are done whenever everything they depend on is ready. A K##udev scripts is still supposed to tell insserv to stop udev in the given runlevel. So either it does, and it isn't very noticeable, or it does not because some dependancy made insserv figure the user didn't know what they were doing. So it still doesn't make sense that renaming /etc/rc2.d/S##udev to K##udev doesn't break the system, but it certainly does make sense that it solves the "udev is trying to start twice" problem. It should be resulting in insserv stopping udev, but perhaps the dependancies of other things is getting udev to ignore the users request. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 16:57:30 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:57:30 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: <20111031162349.GX30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> <20111031162349.GX30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 05:18:04AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> Lennart wasn't trying to warn me about anything he was trying to self >> aggrandize. He didn't understand the problem, he presumed syvinit, >> even though Debian is now using Dependency Based Boot. Most >> importantly he did not try to help in the first place, he just >> criticized without knowledge or understanding. He was not trying to >> help he was trying to put down. There is a big difference. > > What you read into other peoples messages is entirely _your_problem_. It's what you take out of my message which changes the meaning and intent. I just don't like people snipping out their words and leaving mine in, like you did in this snippet: > Simply rename the incorrect script to anything you want as long as it > doesn't start with K. Then you will have solved the original problem > and NOT created a new one. > > But hey if you think you are smarter than the udev package maintainer, > go ahead. Break your system. Who cares. Nope I'm not smarter than him. Debian just uses LSB headers to deal with package maintainers. But hey, thanks for the input. > > insserv still uses the symlink files like sysvinit, but not entirely > the same way, just mostly. > > For example: > > lennartsorensen:~# ls -l /etc/*/*pulseaudio > -rw-r--rThe posted fix was to renam-- 1 root root 1166 Oct ?1 08:18 /etc/default/pulseaudio > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2227 Oct ?1 08:18 /etc/init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Sep 27 ?2010 /etc/rc1.d/K01pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Oct 19 14:08 /etc/rc2.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Oct 19 14:08 /etc/rc3.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Oct 19 14:08 /etc/rc4.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Oct 19 14:08 /etc/rc5.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > lennartsorensen:~# insserv -r pulseaudio > lennartsorensen:~# ls -l /etc/*/*pulseaudio > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1166 Oct ?1 08:18 /etc/default/pulseaudio > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2227 Oct ?1 08:18 /etc/init.d/pulseaudio > lennartsorensen:~# insserv -d pulseaudio > lennartThe posted fix was to renamsorensen:~# ls -l /etc/*/*pulseaudio > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1166 Oct ?1 08:18 /etc/default/pulseaudio > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2227 Oct ?1 08:18 /etc/init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc1.d/K01pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc2.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc3.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc4.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root ? 20 Oct 31 12:14 /etc/rc5.d/S21pulseaudio -> ../init.d/pulseaudio > > So the K and S scripts still apply. ?They are what are used to determine > what should be started and stopped in a given runlevel by insserv. > What insserv changes is the fact that they no longer run one at a > time based only on the names of the scripts. ?Things are done whenever > everything they depend on is ready. > > A K##udev scripts is still supposed to tell insserv to stop udev in > the given runlevel. ?So either it does, and it isn't very noticeable, > or it does not because some dependancy made insserv figure the user > didn't know what they were doing. > > So it still doesn't make sense that renaming /etc/rc2.d/S##udev to K##udev > doesn't break the system, but it certainly does make sense that it solves > the "udev is trying to start twice" problem. ?It should be resulting in > insserv stopping udev, but perhaps the dependancies of other things is > getting udev to ignore the users request. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 17:36:56 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:36:56 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> <20111031162349.GX30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111031173656.GY30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:57:30PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > It's what you take out of my message which changes the meaning and > intent. I just don't like people snipping out their words and leaving > mine in, like you did in this snippet: Are you complaining about following proper qouting style on a mailing list? That's the only thing I can think you mean. > > > Simply rename the incorrect script to anything you want as long as it > > doesn't start with K. Then you will have solved the original problem > > and NOT created a new one. > > > > But hey if you think you are smarter than the udev package maintainer, > > go ahead. Break your system. Who cares. > > Nope I'm not smarter than him. > > Debian just uses LSB headers to deal with package maintainers. I remember that line. I still doesn't make sense this time. "package maintainers" are human beings that maintain packages. "Debian" is the organization that makes Debian releases "LSB headers" are a chunk of text put into the init scripts to tell insserv and similar what dependancies and defaults an init script has. How exactly does Debian use LSB headers to do anything with the humans that maintain packages? I just can't figure that one out. > > > But hey, thanks for the input. Apparently not. I guess I should learn to stop bothering a lot sooner. I often forget some people just want answers or solutions without caring to learn and gain knowledge. As for not helping originally, well I really had no idea why your keyboard stopped responding. I had never encountered anything like it. Of course I had never encountered a system where udev was being started twice. It's not supposed to happen. It does seem like a bad udev design that attempting to start it twice can break things. Rather unfortunate. The Bug you found had the right problem and the cause, just the wrong solution. The right solution was discussed later in the comments on the bug. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 20:14:39 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:14:39 -0400 Subject: Debian: Broken packages, bug Message-ID: I wan't paying attention when I did an update and said 'y' when I should not have. So now I have this situation: node1:/home/joehill# apt-get upgrade Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done You might want to run 'apt-get -f install' to correct these. The following packages have unmet dependencies: brasero-cdrkit : Depends: libbrasero-media3-1 (= 3.0.0-4) but it is not installed empathy : Depends: empathy-common (= 3.2.0.1-1) but 2.30.3-1 is installed Depends: gstreamer0.10-gconf but it is not installed evince : Depends: libevince3-3 (= 3.2.1-1) but it is not installed Depends: libnautilus-extension1a (>= 2.91) but it is not installed Depends: evince-common (>= 3.2) but 2.30.3-3 is installed file-roller : Depends: libnautilus-extension1a (>= 2.91) but it is not installed Depends: nautilus-data (>= 3.0) but 2.30.1-3 is installed gnome-disk-utility : Depends: libavahi-ui-gtk3-0 (>= 0.6.30) but it is not installed Depends: libgdu-gtk0 (>= 3.0.0) but 2.32.1-1 is installed Depends: libnautilus-extension1a (>= 2.91) but it is not installed Depends: libunique-3.0-0 (>= 2.90.1) but it is not installed nautilus : Depends: libnautilus-extension1a (>= 2.91) but it is not installed Depends: nautilus-data (>= 3.0) but 2.30.1-3 is installed nautilus-actions : Depends: libnautilus-extension1a (>= 2.91) but it is not installed Depends: libunique-3.0-0 (>= 2.90.1) but it is not installed Recommends: ksh but it is not installed nautilus-open-terminal : Depends: libnautilus-extension1a (>= 2.91) but it is not installed nautilus-sendto-empathy : Depends: empathy-common (= 3.2.0.1-1) but 2.30.3-1 is installed sound-juicer : Depends: libbrasero-media3-1 (>= 2.91.91) but it is not installed Depends: libgnome-media-profiles-3.0-0 (>= 2.91.2) but it is not installed totem : Depends: libnautilus-extension1a (>= 2.91) but it is not installed Depends: libpeas-1.0-0 (>= 1.0.0) but it is not installed Depends: libtotem0 (>= 3.0.1-3) but it is not installed Depends: libtotem0 (< 3.1) but it is not installed Depends: totem-common (= 3.0.1-3) but 2.30.2-6 is installed totem-plugins : Depends: libgdata11 (>= 0.8.0) but it is not installed Depends: libpeas-1.0-0 (>= 1.0.0) but it is not installed Depends: libtotem0 (>= 3.0.1-3) but it is not installed Depends: libtotem0 (< 3.1) but it is not installed Depends: libtracker-sparql-0.10-0 (>= 0.10.0) but it is not installed Depends: gir1.2-totem-1.0 (= 3.0.1-3) but it is not installed Depends: gir1.2-gtk-3.0 but it is not installed Depends: gir1.2-peas-1.0 but it is not installed E: Unmet dependencies. Try using -f. node1:/home/joehill# node1:/home/joehill# apt-get -f install Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Correcting dependencies... Done The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: liblash2 libclucene0ldbl csound-manpages libqca2 libqimageblitz4 bind9 libqt4-assistant libhttp-access2-ruby1.8 libsolidcontrolifaces4 libqzion0a gadmin-openvpn-server python-clientform bind9utils oxygen-icon-theme oxygencursors libgdata1.4-cil bluez-cups google-gadgets-common phonon libggadget-qt-1.0-0b lockfile-progs libgps19 shared-desktop-ontologies podsleuth python-pypdf google-gadgets-gst libggadget-1.0-0b libntrack-qt4-1 python2.5-dev libpango1.0-common libeina-svn-06 libeet1 virtuoso-minimal libakonadiprivate1 libsoprano4 libqt4-webkit libvirtodbc0 google-gadgets-xul libxcb-render-util0-dev libntrack0 gadmin-openvpn-client gadmin-rsync libstreamanalyzer0 libphonon4 libpkcs11-helper1 thunar-data gadmin-samba libfluidsynth1 libkephal4 phonon-backend-xine ksysguardd gadmin-bind proftpd-basic python-gdbm libattica0 libakonadi-kabc4 libstk0c2a akonadi-server libstreams0 gadmin-proftpd libartsc0-dev openvpn python-pythonmagick virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common libqedje0a soprano-daemon libiodbc2 kaboom virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin python-rdflib libwebkit1.1-cil libdigest-sha1-perl Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. The following extra packages will be installed: brasero brasero-common empathy-common evince-common gir1.2-clutter-1.0 gir1.2-cogl-1.0 gir1.2-coglpango-1.0 gir1.2-gtk-3.0 gir1.2-json-1.0 gir1.2-nautilus-3.0 gir1.2-peas-1.0 gir1.2-totem-1.0 gir1.2-totem-plparser-1.0 gstreamer0.10-gconf libavahi-ui-gtk3-0 libbrasero-media3-1 libevince3-3 libgdata11 libgdu-gtk0 libgnome-media-profiles-3.0-0 libgtk-3-dev libnautilus-extension-dev libnautilus-extension1a libpeas-1.0-0 libpeas-common libpoppler-glib6 libseed-gtk3-0 libtotem0 libtracker-sparql-0.10-0 libunique-3.0-0 nautilus-data totem-common Suggested packages: libgtk-3-doc The following packages will be REMOVED: libbrasero-media0 libnautilus-extension1 seahorse-plugins totem-coherence The following NEW packages will be installed: gir1.2-clutter-1.0 gir1.2-cogl-1.0 gir1.2-coglpango-1.0 gir1.2-gtk-3.0 gir1.2-json-1.0 gir1.2-nautilus-3.0 gir1.2-peas-1.0 gir1.2-totem-1.0 gir1.2-totem-plparser-1.0 gstreamer0.10-gconf libavahi-ui-gtk3-0 libbrasero-media3-1 libevince3-3 libgdata11 libgnome-media-profiles-3.0-0 libgtk-3-dev libnautilus-extension1a libpeas-1.0-0 libpeas-common libpoppler-glib6 libseed-gtk3-0 libtotem0 libtracker-sparql-0.10-0 libunique-3.0-0 The following packages will be upgraded: brasero brasero-common empathy-common evince-common libgdu-gtk0 libnautilus-extension-dev nautilus-data totem-common 8 upgraded, 24 newly installed, 4 to remove and 650 not upgraded. 14 not fully installed or removed. Need to get 0 B/32.6 MB of archives. After this operation, 24.8 MB of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue [Y/n]? Retrieving bug reports... Done Parsing Found/Fixed information... Done serious bugs of gstreamer0.10-gconf (-> 0.10.30-1) #646325 - gstreamer0.10-gconf needs to replace gstreamer0.10-plugins-good Summary: gstreamer0.10-gconf(1 bug) Are you sure you want to install/upgrade the above packages? [Y/n/?/...] This is the same bug that I ignored before and let it go ahead. Should I basically just wait until this bug is fixed and then this situation will go away, or is there some corrective action I need to take right now? The system seems to be working okay as far as I can tell, except that Nautilus will not run. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 20:18:56 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:18:56 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: <20111031173656.GY30119-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> <20111031162349.GX30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111031173656.GY30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Ok Lennart even though I've been told you can't pour more water into a full glass, still I'm going to try. On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:57:30PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: >> It's what you take out of my message which changes the meaning and >> intent. I just don't like people snipping out their words and leaving >> mine in, like you did in this snippet: > > Are you complaining about following proper qouting style on a mailing > list? ?That's the only thing I can think you mean. > >> >> > Simply rename the incorrect script to anything you want as long as it >> > doesn't start with K. ?Then you will have solved the original problem >> > and NOT created a new one. >> > >> > But hey if you think you are smarter than the udev package maintainer, >> > go ahead. ?Break your system. ?Who cares. >> >> Nope I'm not smarter than him. >> >> Debian just uses LSB headers to deal with package maintainers. > > I remember that line. ?I still doesn't make sense this time. > > "package maintainers" are human beings that maintain packages. > "Debian" is the organization that makes Debian releases > "LSB headers" are a chunk of text put into the init scripts to tell > insserv and similar what dependancies and defaults an init script has. > > How exactly does Debian use LSB headers to do anything with the humans > that maintain packages? ?I just can't figure that one out. Debian is an organization made up of humans. Package maintainers are humans, although some might argue differently. The organization Debian realized that there are problems developing and maintaining packages in the current manner. Dealing with an event driven kernel requires some elegance in a solution, elegance and and a modicum of recycling of code, at least in transition. This is part of that decision process in terms of when and how to inject and monitor commands in the initialization of the OS. On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 10:02:51AM +0100, Thomas Hood wrote: > > Changes: > > lsb (2.0-6) unstable; urgency=low > > . > > * Create lsb package in binary-indep step. (Closes: #297788) > > * Merge /lib/lsb/init-functions from Ubuntu. > > * Split /lib/lsb/init-functions into arch-all lsb-base package; this > > functionality is thus available for use by other, non-LSB packages. > > * Update README.Debian. > > > Should Debian initscripts use lsb init-functions? Yes, IMHO it should, and it has been requested before (#208010). There are several issues with the way init scripts are written by developers currently: - no uniformity, messages are show in a "messy" way and it's not easy to tell when the system has started up correctly and when it has failed - not all init scripts share the same arguments, some useful arguments are not common (like 'status', #291148) - there is no logging of init scripts (#169600) startup, so it's difficult to determine (post-boot) if all the system's elements started up correctly. - adding common library functions for LSB scripts could allow us to provide an 'interactive login' such as the used by other distributions and which is, actually, quite useful for new installations (to determine which init.d script is freezing the system due to hardware trouble). There are more advantages than those above, but those above are the ones that I would like to see fixed first :-) Regards Javier > >> >> >> But hey, thanks for the input. > > Apparently not. > > I guess I should learn to stop bothering a lot sooner. > > I often forget some people just want answers or solutions without caring > t<>> > But hey if you think you are smarter than the udev package maintainer, >> > go ahead. Break your system. Who cares. >>o learn and gain knowledge. You were the one that warned about not taking the advice of people who don't know what they are doing. > > As for not helping originally, well I really had no idea why your keyboard Is this you admitting you didn't really have an idea, oh my god Lennart, get a grip on things. > stopped responding. ?I had never encountered anything like it. ?Of course > I had never encountered a system where udev was being started twice. > It's not supposed to happen. ?It does seem like a bad udev design that > attempting to start it twice can break things. ?Rather unfortunate. > The Bug you found had the right problem and the cause, just the wrong > solution. ?The right solution was discussed later in the comments on > the bug. What was the right solution you speak of? This is what I got from that thread. "It seems that this bug is still not understood, and not readily reproducible, so I don't think we should delay squeeze for it. If/when a fix becomes available it can still be considered, either before the release or for a point update." You see from my point of view, in all this there is no right or wrong, only functional and non-functional. Since both keyboards and mice work when they are plugged in, hot or on boot, as well as the other usb device's I had to fool with at the time, the usb Multi Function Unit and various usb dongles, what's broken here? I can't tell from the hardware and neither can you from your theories. Yet you pontificate on the right solution, when you still don't understand the problem. That's what's broken here Lennart, you don't understand the problem. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=208010 > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 31 22:03:42 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:03:42 -0400 Subject: Solved Debian update - keyboard responsive, Lennart Sorrenson not so much In-Reply-To: References: <4EACE508.9050005@gmail.com> <20111031162349.GX30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111031173656.GY30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111031220342.GZ30119@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 04:18:56PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote: > Ok Lennart even though I've been told you can't pour more water into a > full glass, still I'm going to try. Well you keep talking about LSB even though it has nothing to do with this. > Debian is an organization made up of humans. Package maintainers are > humans, although some might argue differently. The organization Debian > realized that there are problems developing and maintaining packages > in the current manner. > > Dealing with an event driven kernel requires some elegance in a > solution, elegance and and a modicum of recycling of code, at least in > transition. > > This is part of that decision process in terms of when and how to > inject and monitor commands in the initialization of the OS. Sure. I know what the LSB headers do. Nothing to do with this. I know how sysvinit works, and how insserv works (which is what Debian uses now). The point of insserv is to speed up booting by starting services in parallel when possible and to start things in the right order, which was tricky to arrange using sysvinit's numerical ordering only. [snip more irrelevant LSB stuff] > You were the one that warned about not taking the advice of people who > don't know what they are doing. Well the bug report you orriginally posted a "fix" from, was one such person. And the package maintainer said so in the 3rd comment. Ths "workaround" was wrong and should not be followed. A proper workaround would likely have been "insserv -d udev". Simply reset the start/stop state of udev to the defaults as specified in it's LSB header (rather convinient to have such defaults there). The renaming workaround did not do that. Far from it. > Is this you admitting you didn't really have an idea, oh my god > Lennart, get a grip on things. I did not get involved in trying to fix the odd keyboard behaviour, since I had nothing to contribute to it. On the other hand when someone says they found a solution that is clearly a bad idea, that I do have something to contribute to. Having archives of problems out there with incorrect solutions listed as "the fix" without someone pointing out that is it wrong is not productive. > What was the right solution you speak of? This is what I got from that thread. > > "It seems that this bug is still not understood, and not readily > reproducible, so I don't think we should delay squeeze for it. If/when > a fix becomes available it can still be considered, either before the > release or for a point update." >From having read the bug report the state was: The cause of keyboard issues was trying to start udev twice. The udev package itself could never have caused this to happen. Someone had managed to make gnome's service manager create such an incorrect duplicate symlink file that caused the problem. Whether this was the only way it could happen is unknown. The original bug reporter suggested a work around involving renaming one of the runlevel symlink files, which certainly stopped udev from trying to start twice, but unfortunately should cause it to stop instead. The package maintainer pointed out this was not the right way to fix it. So the attempt at starting udev twice caused the problem. What caused the extra start script for udev was unclear. So the correct solution is to remove the incorrect link for udev in runlevels 2, 3, 4 and 5. The wrong solution is renaming the wrong link to a stop link from a start link. The udev package never created those links and does not work with them, so removing them makes sense. It doesn't solve how the wrong link came to be unfortunately, which is what the bug report seems to be stuck at. > You see from my point of view, in all this there is no right or wrong, > only functional and non-functional. On current debian systems, udev is by design supposed to start in runlevel S (startup), and stay running. By renaming the extra start script in runlevel 2 to a stop script, the setup now says to start udev in runlevel S and then stop it when moving to runlevel 2. Clearly that is not how the system was designed to run, so it is wrong. It would seem in this case that perhaps that isn't what turns out to happen, but it is what that configuration should cause to happen. So the configuration doesn't match what should happen, hence it is wrong. I am tempted to create a virtual machine and go create the extra link for udev and then rename it to try and figure out why it isn't doing what is should be doing. It could be another bug after all, which if fixed would turn the "bad" workaround into a broken system again. > Since both keyboards and mice work when they are plugged in, hot or on > boot, as well as the other usb device's I had to fool with at the > time, the usb Multi Function Unit and various usb dongles, what's > broken here? The only thing broken seems to be the config and the fact that the system appears to not be entirely following it. Clearly the keyboard is working. Certainly the renaming work around does not put the system back into the state a freshly installed system would be (which would only have the udev links in rcS.d since udev never stops on normal systems). It would not have any S or K scripts for udev in any other runlevel. lennartsorensen:~# ls -l /etc/*/*udev -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 8047 Jun 4 20:35 /etc/init.d/udev lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 14 May 13 2010 /etc/rcS.d/S02udev -> ../init.d/udev That's all I see on a normal install. > I can't tell from the hardware and neither can you from your theories. > Yet you pontificate on the right solution, when you still don't > understand the problem. > > That's what's broken here Lennart, you don't understand the problem. > > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=208010 What does LSB init scripts have to do with whether something creates an extra link to udev's init script breaks things? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists