From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 14:52:18 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 09:52:18 -0500 Subject: Random Hacks of Kindness Message-ID: FYI: There will be another "Random Hacks of Kindness" event this weekend here in Toronto, details to be seen here: http://www.rhok.org/event/toronto-canada . In essence a weekend of writing code to help non-profits and charities. This can be great fun. Colin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 19:22:41 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 14:22:41 -0500 Subject: Where can I get older PCI video cards in the GTA? In-Reply-To: <20111130150326.GF6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111129222325.GA2203@waltdnes.org> <20111130010649.GA3663@waltdnes.org> <20111130150326.GF6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111201192241.GB4455@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 10:03:26AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 08:06:49PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > > Wow, that was fast. Thanks for the quick responses guys. As you can > > tell, I've forgotten that AGP existed. I'll check out the Tigerdirect > > store near Weston and Hwy 7 tomorrow. I can get there by bus using the > > parts of York Region Transit that aren't on strike. > > Or better yet to canada computers at rutherford and jane. Tigerdirect is > useless and the staff are rude in many cases. Tigerdirect's Vaughan store didn't have any in stock. I picked up a PCI card at Canada Computers North York store, just north of the YRT+GO "Finch" terminal, which is just north of the TTC "Finch" terminal. YRT allows multiple stopovers+roundtrips on a transfer. It's effectively a 2-hour bus pass. I got from Dufferin+Steeles to Weston+7, and then back to the YRT Finch terminal on one YRT ticket+transfer. I took the TTC 60 (Steeles West) back home. I've got another pet project distracting me now, so I'll try the card later. I have tried it out, and yes, it does fit. Thanks to all the people who replied. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 1 19:47:39 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 14:47:39 -0500 Subject: openLDAP with slapd-config backend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update, On 30 November 2011 10:40, William Muriithi wrote: > Morning guys, > > Curious, anyone here have had the "fun" of setting up openLDAP with > the new dynamic backend? How the heck do we change the password for > the oclRootDN? > > A little about the problem, it look like now, whenever you set up > openLDAP, you have to explicitly add the super user password on the > backend so that you can be able to bind and do further configuration > either though ldapmodify or the GUI based ?tools? > Found a solution, just in case it help someone else root at testldap2:~# cat changePW.ldif # 2.4. #delete: olcRootPW dn: olcDatabase={1}hdb,cn=config replace: olcRootPW olcRootPW: my-secret ldapadd -Y EXTERNAL -H ldapi:/// -f changePW.ldif -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 03:30:50 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 22:30:50 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum Message-ID: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> An interesting bit of history. http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix/1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 06:20:09 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 01:20:09 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: <4ED8466A.2000606-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 10:30 PM, James Knott wrote: > An interesting bit of history. > > http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix/1 > That was a great story. I was really interested in the idea of running the original Unix. That would be very cool, to run Unix 1.0 in some kind of emulator on my linux machine. Would that be possible? -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 12:03:09 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (R. Russell Reiter) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 07:03:09 -0500 Subject: Paranoia Metanoia and Ultranoia Sharing a news story Message-ID: <2f7dc3d5-f576-4519-8445-494555e769f8@email.android.com> They say if you lie awake at night, afraid a rhino is going to smash through the wall, you are paranoid. However if you are in the crosswalk and you see a car swerve towards you and you are afraid, that is metanoia. What if you are caught in the middle of the information superhighway and you turn off gps, is that ultranoia? http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/tories-have-yet-to-prove-case-for-e-snooping-bill/article2256197/?service=mobile Do you worry about state and or corporate snooping on your phone? Is privacy becoming an outmoded concept as our society "avatarizes" our concept of self? Do you avatar shield in some places but not others and how can you trust that your protected id is not compromised? Comments appreciated. I was approached by a gamer to help him ferret out a potential benedict arnold on his team. I told him to construct an insider idiom. Like the Bonano crime family used to thwart the fbi. I saw this article. It makes me wonder how much to trust corporations who provide access to the internet to not snoop my stuff? R. Russell Reiter's Left Brain Messaging Matrix [Currently Under Development] Your mileage may vary. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 12:07:24 2011 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 07:07:24 -0500 Subject: Unix Turns 40 Message-ID: <4ED8BF7C.3030505@yaknet.ca> Found this on my morning Grok. http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 12:09:13 2011 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 07:09:13 -0500 Subject: Unix Turns 40 In-Reply-To: <4ED8BF7C.3030505-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8BF7C.3030505@yaknet.ca> Message-ID: <4ED8BFE9.9020705@yaknet.ca> On 11-12-02 07:07 AM, John Myshrall wrote: > Found this on my morning Grok. > > http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix > > > John LOL should put my glasses on too. 3rd post about it sry. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 16:19:57 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:19:57 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 Message-ID: Last night Linus Torvalds posted this on Google+: ----- Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is starting to look almost usable. Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that "clean default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard install. Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not politically acceptable? ----- That's the full post. I've heard a lot of unkind things about Gnome 3.2, and Linus has been one of its best known detractors. Given that his opinions are based on pragmatism rather than zealotry (Stallman anyone?), I'm always interested in what he has to say. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 16:24:17 2011 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:24:17 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> Lol. It took a long time for KDE 4.x to be stable/useable. People should give Gnome time an benefit of the doubt. Sent from my mobile On 2011-12-02, at 11:20, Giles Orr wrote: > Last night Linus Torvalds posted this on Google+: > > ----- > > Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is > starting to look almost usable. > > Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell > setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather > than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that > "clean default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard > install. > > Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not > politically acceptable? > > ----- > > That's the full post. > > I've heard a lot of unkind things about Gnome 3.2, and Linus has been > one of its best known detractors. Given that his opinions are based > on pragmatism rather than zealotry (Stallman anyone?), I'm always > interested in what he has to say. It'll be interesting to see how > this plays out. > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 18:11:56 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 13:11:56 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 11:19:57AM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > Last night Linus Torvalds posted this on Google+: > > ----- > > Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is > starting to look almost usable. > > Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell > setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather > than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that > "clean default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard > install. > > Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not > politically acceptable? > > ----- > > That's the full post. > > I've heard a lot of unkind things about Gnome 3.2, and Linus has been > one of its best known detractors. Given that his opinions are based > on pragmatism rather than zealotry (Stallman anyone?), I'm always > interested in what he has to say. It'll be interesting to see how > this plays out. I had gnome 3 pop up by default on a login on a new setup. I gave up finding anything after 5 minutes and logged in with kde instead. Some ideas are just not that good and gnome 3 is one of them. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 18:12:36 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 13:12:36 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 11:24:17AM -0500, Sammy Lao wrote: > It took a long time for KDE 4.x to be stable/useable. > > People should give Gnome time an benefit of the doubt. kde 4.x was a bit unstable and buggy, but at least the user interface worked the way you would expect it to. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 18:18:49 2011 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 13:18:49 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111202181236.GH6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> On 12/02/2011 01:12 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 11:24:17AM -0500, Sammy Lao wrote: >> It took a long time for KDE 4.x to be stable/useable. >> >> People should give Gnome time an benefit of the doubt. > kde 4.x was a bit unstable and buggy, but at least the user interface > worked the way you would expect it to. > i , like many, bailed from kde (2.x?), when the next release was a bug fest. Always liked kde better for its extra power, but have been with gnome for about last 4 years i am guessing. I was going to go back to kde , next i do a update/install, but.. you say still a bit buggy and unstable? no 4.x release point (even if 6-12 months old) is built proof yet? I will have my current gnome 2 main desktop system (on 24/7/365), have a crash (out of desktop to text console) maybe 1-2 times per year, people not seeing this stability yet with kde 4.x ? -tl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 19:36:56 2011 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:36:56 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED928D8.9010008@sobac.com> I tend to agree with Linus. I upgraded some computers to Ubuntu 11.10, and am no longer using Unity on any of them. I have one running Gnome 3.2 with the gnome-tweak-tool and another with gnome-session-fallback, and while neither suits me as well as Gnome 2 in Ubuntu 10.10, I can live with them in anticipation of everything being fixed in Ubuntu 12.04. --Bob. Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Voice: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cel: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office& Business Automation --- Consulting On 11-12-02 11:19 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > Last night Linus Torvalds posted this on Google+: > > ----- > > Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is > starting to look almost usable. > > Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell > setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather > than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that > "clean default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard > install. > > Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not > politically acceptable? > > ----- > > That's the full post. > > I've heard a lot of unkind things about Gnome 3.2, and Linus has been > one of its best known detractors. Given that his opinions are based > on pragmatism rather than zealotry (Stallman anyone?), I'm always > interested in what he has to say. It'll be interesting to see how > this plays out. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 19:52:19 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:52:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Statscan going to stop charging for much of its data Message-ID: I don't know what's on CANSIM vs other databases. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:00:08 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:00:08 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <4ED91689.6000009-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 01:18:49PM -0500, Ted wrote: > On 12/02/2011 01:12 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 11:24:17AM -0500, Sammy Lao wrote: > >>It took a long time for KDE 4.x to be stable/useable. > >> > >>People should give Gnome time an benefit of the doubt. > >kde 4.x was a bit unstable and buggy, but at least the user interface > >worked the way you would expect it to. > > > i , like many, bailed from kde (2.x?), when the next release was a > bug fest. > Always liked kde better for its extra power, but have been with > gnome for about last 4 years i am guessing. > I was going to go back to kde , next i do a update/install, but.. > you say still a bit buggy and unstable? > no 4.x release point (even if 6-12 months old) is built proof yet? > I will have my current gnome 2 main desktop system (on 24/7/365), > have a crash (out of desktop to text console) maybe 1-2 times per > year, > people not seeing this stability yet with kde 4.x ? No kde 4.x is fine now. Of course some people are using xfce instead. Much lighter weight and nice and simple to work with it seems. I keep meaning to give it a try. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:04:10 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:04:10 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111202181156.GG6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 11:19:57AM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: >> Last night Linus Torvalds posted this on Google+: >> >> ? ? ?----- >> >> Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is >> starting to look almost usable. >> >> Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell >> setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather >> than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that >> "clean default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard >> install. >> >> Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not >> politically acceptable? >> >> ? ? ?----- >> >> That's the full post. >> >> I've heard a lot of unkind things about Gnome 3.2, and Linus has been >> one of its best known detractors. ?Given that his opinions are based >> on pragmatism rather than zealotry (Stallman anyone?), I'm always >> interested in what he has to say. ?It'll be interesting to see how >> this plays out. > > I had gnome 3 pop up by default on a login on a new setup. ?I gave up > finding anything after 5 minutes and logged in with kde instead. > > Some ideas are just not that good and gnome 3 is one of them. > I have had exactly the same experience, but with KDE, so I think it is more a matter of personal preference. KDE always seems like a nightmare to make anything work the way I want it, and I find the look of it kind of awkward. I hate the file chooser dialogue beyond comprehension. I only use maybe half a dozen apps on a regular basis, so maybe that has something to do with it. I hate the KDE menu, I don't need even a fraction of the applications. Gnome 3 without the Tweak Tool would be infuriating for anyone with a desire for a lot of personalization, but now that I have that working I honestly don't see what's missing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:12:43 2011 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:12:43 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <4ED928D8.9010008-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED928D8.9010008@sobac.com> Message-ID: I think GNOME 3/3.2 is terrific. I haven't been this excited about running Linux since it was outlawed at work. I've been installing it everywhere (mostly openSUSE but also Fedora and Debian), even in VMware and VirtualBox at the office. I need to thank Marcel Gagne for blogging about it in early 2010, Jim Campbell of the Documentation Project for posting right here about the Doc Hackfest in March, and Hugh for pressing Jim for more information. Once I showed up at the Hackfest, Phil Bull gave me the clue to unlock the Live DVD and replace my long-time distro, Ubuntu. I haven't looked back. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:34:39 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:34:39 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > Last night Linus Torvalds posted this on Google+: > > ? ? ----- > > Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is > starting to look almost usable. > > Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell > setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather > than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that > "clean default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard > install. > > Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not > politically acceptable? > > ? ? ----- > > That's the full post. > > I've heard a lot of unkind things about Gnome 3.2, and Linus has been > one of its best known detractors. ?Given that his opinions are based > on pragmatism rather than zealotry (Stallman anyone?), I'm always > interested in what he has to say. ?It'll be interesting to see how > this plays out. > I don't know why he thinks the dock extension is useful. From what I can see, it is simply a mirror of the application launch bar on the left. And it doesn't even look as nice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:36:08 2011 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:36:08 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111202200008.GI6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Yeah. KDE is fine now. It was a horror show two years ago. On Dec 2, 2011 3:00 PM, "Lennart Sorensen" wrote: > On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 01:18:49PM -0500, Ted wrote: > > On 12/02/2011 01:12 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > >On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 11:24:17AM -0500, Sammy Lao wrote: > > >>It took a long time for KDE 4.x to be stable/useable. > > >> > > >>People should give Gnome time an benefit of the doubt. > > >kde 4.x was a bit unstable and buggy, but at least the user interface > > >worked the way you would expect it to. > > > > > i , like many, bailed from kde (2.x?), when the next release was a > > bug fest. > > Always liked kde better for its extra power, but have been with > > gnome for about last 4 years i am guessing. > > I was going to go back to kde , next i do a update/install, but.. > > you say still a bit buggy and unstable? > > no 4.x release point (even if 6-12 months old) is built proof yet? > > I will have my current gnome 2 main desktop system (on 24/7/365), > > have a crash (out of desktop to text console) maybe 1-2 times per > > year, > > people not seeing this stability yet with kde 4.x ? > > No kde 4.x is fine now. > > Of course some people are using xfce instead. Much lighter weight and > nice and simple to work with it seems. I keep meaning to give it a try. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:36:43 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:36:43 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 03:04:10PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > I have had exactly the same experience, but with KDE, so I think it is > more a matter of personal preference. KDE always seems like a > nightmare to make anything work the way I want it, and I find the look > of it kind of awkward. I hate the file chooser dialogue beyond > comprehension. > > I only use maybe half a dozen apps on a regular basis, so maybe that > has something to do with it. I hate the KDE menu, I don't need even a > fraction of the applications. > > Gnome 3 without the Tweak Tool would be infuriating for anyone with a > desire for a lot of personalization, but now that I have that working > I honestly don't see what's missing. Actually it is infuriating to anyone wanting to just work. I expect and want very little: I want my programs to be in a box that I can resize, minimize and maximize. I like it if double clicking the title bar toggles maximize on/off. I want alt+tab to switch between windows. I like alt+f2 to give me a box to type a command to run. This is the only way other than typing stuff in an xterm I use to start things. I don't ever use menus. I expect sloppy focus. If I point at a window, give it focus. If I alt+tab to a window, give it focuas and bring it to the top. If I click on it, bring it to the top. I prefer not to waste too much space on the screen for things, but I do like having a clock/date in the corner, with a place for icons of things like pidgin and such to show the status. A list of running programs that I can click if I don't feel like alt+tabing for some reason is nice too. I can't be bothered with multiple desktops. I can't ever remember what I put where, and find switching between them too ackward. Besides I only ever have about 5 applications running. - iceweasel. Two windows with many tabs each. One holds comics and other fun things, the other holds more useful stuff. - chrome. One window, lots of tabs. - konsole. Many tabs. - pidgin. Only shows as a window if I am chatting with anyone. - korganizer. To handle popus for any meetings I have to remember. Nicely tied into mutt using a perl and python thing that parses .ics meeting requests and send either accept or reject replies, and adds it to my calendar if accepted. So that's really all I want. I don't want automatic window arranging, tiling, fancy animated anything (although it looks neat), keyboard shortcuts that override what applications default to, lots of panels taking up space with useless applets, etc. I very much do NOT want a filemanager of any kind what so ever. I don't want desktop icons. In fact I tend to run almost everything maximized and hence don't even see a desktop background image. I show pictures in my screensaver. At least then I see them sometimes. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:45:34 2011 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:45:34 -0500 Subject: Statscan going to stop charging for much of its data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111202204534.GA6107@yam.witteman.ca> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 02:52:19PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > >I don't know what's on CANSIM vs other databases. Quite a bit - lots of microdata, lots more customization of data formatting. I use it regularly at work. It is an incredible resource. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 20:51:27 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:51:27 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111202203643.GJ6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 03:04:10PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: >> I have had exactly the same experience, but with KDE, so I think it is >> more a matter of personal preference. KDE always seems like a >> nightmare to make anything work the way I want it, and I find the look >> of it kind of awkward. I hate the file chooser dialogue beyond >> comprehension. >> >> I only use maybe half a dozen apps on a regular basis, so maybe that >> has something to do with it. I hate the KDE menu, I don't need even a >> fraction of the applications. >> >> Gnome 3 without the Tweak Tool would be infuriating for anyone with a >> desire for a lot of personalization, but now that I have that working >> I honestly don't see what's missing. > > Actually it is infuriating to anyone wanting to just work. > > I expect and want very little: > > I want my programs to be in a box that I can resize, minimize and > maximize. ?I like it if double clicking the title bar toggles maximize > on/off. Gnome 3 has that with Tweak Tool. That decision, to not allow a min/max button, was pretty stupid, granted. > I want alt+tab to switch between windows. That's on by default. > I like alt+f2 to give me a box to type a command to run. ?This is the > only way other than typing stuff in an xterm I use to start things. > I don't ever use menus. Got that. > I expect sloppy focus. ?If I point at a window, give it focus. ?If I > alt+tab to a window, give it focuas and bring it to the top. ?If I click > on it, bring it to the top. That exactly how it works in my Gnome 3. > I prefer not to waste too much space on the screen for things, but I do > like having a clock/date in the corner, with a place for icons of things > like pidgin and such to show the status. ?A list of running programs that > I can click if I don't feel like alt+tabing for some reason is nice too. > > I can't be bothered with multiple desktops. ?I can't ever remember what > I put where, and find switching between them too ackward. ?Besides I > only ever have about 5 applications running. I also mainly use Alt-Tab. Multiple desktops seems cool, but it's actual usefulness has escaped me so far ;) > - iceweasel. ?Two windows with many tabs each. ?One holds comics and > ?other fun things, the other holds more useful stuff. > > - chrome. ?One window, lots of tabs. > > - konsole. ?Many tabs. > > - pidgin. ?Only shows as a window if I am chatting with anyone. > > - korganizer. ?To handle popus for any meetings I have to remember. > ?Nicely tied into mutt using a perl and python thing that parses .ics > ?meeting requests and send either accept or reject replies, and adds it > ?to my calendar if accepted. > > So that's really all I want. ?I don't want automatic window arranging, > tiling, fancy animated anything (although it looks neat), keyboard > shortcuts that override what applications default to, lots of panels > taking up space with useless applets, etc. ?I very much do NOT want a > filemanager of any kind what so ever. ?I don't want desktop icons. > In fact I tend to run almost everything maximized and hence don't even > see a desktop background image. ?I show pictures in my screensaver. > At least then I see them sometimes. > >From what you've written, I can't see anything that you'd be missing. I don't have desktop icons, and I also run everything maximized. I always set a wallpaper, but I don't know why because I never see it :-) -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vic-2vUEnoANFF8dnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 21:03:44 2011 From: vic-2vUEnoANFF8dnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org (Vic Gedris) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 16:03:44 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: My biggest annoyances so far: * To much mouse movement to navigate menus to start apps (i.e. Move to the far top-left of screen, click "All Applications" (or however it's labeled), move all the way over to the other edge of the screen to select a sub category, then move back to somewhere else in the middle of the screen to choose your app). Especially annoying on a wide high-res screen. * I actually like dedicating some screen space to a dock panel, panel listing all open apps, etc. * Accidentally moving the mouse too far to the corners causes things to pop up over my open windows. Highly annoying, especially when I'm aiming for a button in the lower-right of my window. * It takes a million mouse clicks to shut down the computer. Only option is to log out (with a confirmation click or two, of course). Then shut down from the *DM screen (probably with a confirmation click or two). There is, however, a hidden feature were if you hold down ALT while logging out it turns the logout into a poweroff (I luckily stumbled across that somewhere). But other than that...I can generally get along OK with it. I switched to xfce for a little while, but now I'm back to gnome. This is with Debian Unstable,. -Vic Vic Gedris - http://vic.gedris.org Toronto, Ontario, Canada - http://www.junctiontriangle.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 21:06:12 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 16:06:12 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 03:51:27PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Gnome 3 has that with Tweak Tool. That decision, to not allow a > min/max button, was pretty stupid, granted. I don't want to have to tweak it. I want it to have sane defaults. At least it should be in the standard config tool. > From what you've written, I can't see anything that you'd be missing. > I don't have desktop icons, and I also run everything maximized. I > always set a wallpaper, but I don't know why because I never see it I couldn't find the icon for pidgin in gnome3 as far as I recall. It was simply nowhere. And it was wasting an enourmous amount of screen space on some dock looking thing. Gnome has always wasted too much screen space on panels by default. I really didn't have the patience to figure out why anything wasn't working. It didn't just work, so I switched to something that did. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 21:54:03 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 16:54:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Vic Gedris I'm using Gnome 3.0 on Fedora 15, no tweaking, so my experience might be different. | * To much mouse movement to navigate menus to start apps (i.e. Move to | the far top-left of screen, click "All Applications" (or however it's | labeled), move all the way over to the other edge of the screen to | select a sub category, then move back to somewhere else in the middle | of the screen to choose your app). Especially annoying on a wide | high-res screen. [I'm struggling to describe this stuff because I don't know what the features are called.] The "bang mouse into top left corner" gesture gets annoying quickly with a high-pixel screen. Hit the Windows key to get the same effect. This is the first time in my life that I've ever used the Windows. (Hitting it again reverses the transition.) The menu-equivallent is hopeless: slow and larg. Just type enough of the name into the "type to search" box. I have customized the palette on the left, whatever that is called. I added xterm (right click on the icon and make the appropriate choice). Annoyance: clicking on the xterm icon doesn't give you a new xterm, it gives you an old one. You have to right click on the xterm icon and chose "new window". | * I actually like dedicating some screen space to a dock panel, panel | listing all open apps, etc. It isn't dedicated. I would like it to be. Oh, and when I hit the Windows key, I see a matrix of shrunken windows. I have not deduced how they are ordered so I waste a lot of time scanning to find the one I want. Does anyone know the order? | * Accidentally moving the mouse too far to the corners causes things | to pop up over my open windows. Highly annoying, especially when I'm | aiming for a button in the lower-right of my window. Upper left corner: as discussed -- menus and window icons Lower right corner: something unknown and ghostly, perhaps notifications. Other corners: nothing I notice | * It takes a million mouse clicks to shut down the computer. Only | option is to log out (with a confirmation click or two, of course). | Then shut down from the *DM screen (probably with a confirmation click | or two). There is, however, a hidden feature were if you hold down | ALT while logging out it turns the logout into a poweroff (I luckily | stumbled across that somewhere). The hidden feature is moderately well advertised. Dumb, but it works well enough. I guess you could argue that it makes it slightly safer from accidental discharge. Funny thing: I used to leave my desktop on 24x7. Now I often put it to sleep at night. Wrecks SSH and IRC sessions, but seems to work really well. | But other than that...I can generally get along OK with it. I've been using this for two or three months. I'm annoyed by a few things. I'm going to get around to moving to Fedora 16 and tweak tool, hoping things are a bit better. I miss some widgets from the top bar: system monitor, for example. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 22:00:13 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 17:00:13 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111202210612.GK6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:06 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 03:51:27PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Gnome 3 has that with Tweak Tool. That decision, to not allow a >> min/max button, was pretty stupid, granted. > > I don't want to have to tweak it. ?I want it to have sane defaults. > At least it should be in the standard config tool. I think from what you described as your basic needs, it met 90% of them by default. >> From what you've written, I can't see anything that you'd be missing. >> I don't have desktop icons, and I also run everything maximized. I >> always set a wallpaper, but I don't know why because I never see it > > I couldn't find the icon for pidgin in gnome3 as far as I recall. ?It was > simply nowhere. ?And it was wasting an enourmous amount of screen space > on some dock looking thing. ?Gnome has always wasted too much screen > space on panels by default. It has one thin panel at the top of the screen. The dock doesn't appear unless you select the Activities menu. There are no applets loaded by default except the standards that everyone is used to. The icon for Pidgin is under Applications --> Internet. > I really didn't have the patience to figure out why anything wasn't > working. ? It didn't just work, so I switched to something that did. > Personal experience and preferences are valid, but I don't think the fact that it's missing a maximize button by default qualifies it as a total failure of design standards. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 22:14:39 2011 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 17:14:39 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:54 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Annoyance: clicking on the xterm icon doesn't give you a new xterm, it > gives you an old one. ?You have to right click on the xterm icon and > chose "new window". Ctrl-Click should open a new window. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 2 23:50:48 2011 From: teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 18:50:48 -0500 Subject: 2 Linux admins needed Message-ID: Hi TLUG, First, I am looking for 1 or 2 TLUG users to work in equal partnership with myself. I want to setup some CPanel, Amazon, Ecommerce, Cloud and Physical servers for new clients. I need 1 or 2 TLUG users that want some PT linux work. We will form a team and provide Linux support. I have work space+internet. Second, (and more importantly at this time) I have some URGENT ongoing part time work I need immediate help with! (job details/skills/hours/pay can be discussed offlist) Here are some skills you will need: Linux, Ubuntu 11/10 server, Fedora (32/64bit) Intermediate to Advanced Linux administration skills on Production servers Amazon EC2/RDS/Firewalls/Cloud Computing/ThePlanet/SoftLayer/Cpanel DNS/Postfix/VPNs/OpenSWAN/OpenVPN/IPSEC/Magento/ Be available for PT hours to start, and very quickly move to FT I would prefer that you live downtown, but that is not a dealbreaker. Please send email only to: teddymills1-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thank you! Teddy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 00:06:21 2011 From: teddymills4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 19:06:21 -0500 Subject: 2 PT Linux admins needed, repost Message-ID: Hi TLUG, (same message as before, just fixed up a bit :) First, I am looking for 1 or 2 TLUG linux admins to work in equal partnership with myself. 3 Linux admins working together provide better service+support than 1 admin. I want to setup some Linux servers, CPanel, Amazon, Ecommerce, Cloud/Physical servers for new clients. We will form a team and provide Linux support services. I have work space+internet. Second, (and more importantly at this time) I have some URGENT ongoing part time Linux server work I need immediate help with! (job details/skills/hours/pay can be discussed offlist) I need 1 or 2 PT Linux admins that can do Linux server admin work. Here are some skills you will need: Linux, Ubuntu 11/10 server, Fedora (32/64bit) Intermediate to Advanced Linux administration skills on Production servers Amazon EC2/RDS/Firewalls/Cloud Computing/Cpanel/ DNS/Postfix/VPNs/OpenSWAN/OpenVPN/IPSEC/Magento/ Be available for PT hours to start, and very quickly move to FT I would prefer that you live downtown, but that is not a dealbreaker. Please send email only to: teddymills1-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thank you! Teddy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 00:35:20 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 19:35:20 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111203003520.GB27678@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 03:04:10PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote > > I have had exactly the same experience, but with KDE, so I think it is > more a matter of personal preference. KDE always seems like a > nightmare to make anything work the way I want it, and I find the look > of it kind of awkward. I hate the file chooser dialogue beyond > comprehension. > > I only use maybe half a dozen apps on a regular basis, so maybe that > has something to do with it. I hate the KDE menu, I don't need even a > fraction of the applications. > > Gnome 3 without the Tweak Tool would be infuriating for anyone with a > desire for a lot of personalization, but now that I have that working > I honestly don't see what's missing. The pox on both their houses. I use ICEWM. I don't run desktops, I run applications. I also don't understand multiple desktops. My first encounter with them was when I'd move the mouse pointer out of the way, and all my apps disappeared on me... not very newbie-friendly. I either ALT-TAB between apps, or move the mouse down to the bottom where the menu bar pops up. It has an area with icons for launching my selected apps, a "commandline" area, cpu-load applet, date-time applet, network applet for each network interface, and on my laptop there's an applet for battery time remaining. There's also a row for currently open apps and windows. I can click on that row to select the currently running app I want. Desktop icons would be useless, because I tend to have several apps open all the time, and the desktop is totally covered most of the time. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 01:14:29 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 17:14:29 -0800 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Distros should stop forcing users to adopt the latest cool-aid until it's more usable. When KDE4 became the only version available on many distros, it was definitely half-baked, with user-unfriendly UI choices, sometimes poor stability, and previously-available features missing from core apps (or important apps missing entirely). On Dec 2, 2011 8:24 AM, "Sammy Lao" wrote: > Lol. > > It took a long time for KDE 4.x to be stable/useable. > > People should give Gnome time an benefit of the doubt. > > Sent from my mobile > > On 2011-12-02, at 11:20, Giles Orr wrote: > > > Last night Linus Torvalds posted this on Google+: > > > > ----- > > > > Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is > > starting to look almost usable. > > > > Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell > > setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather > > than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that > > "clean default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard > > install. > > > > Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not > > politically acceptable? > > > > ----- > > > > That's the full post. > > > > I've heard a lot of unkind things about Gnome 3.2, and Linus has been > > one of its best known detractors. Given that his opinions are based > > on pragmatism rather than zealotry (Stallman anyone?), I'm always > > interested in what he has to say. It'll be interesting to see how > > this plays out. > > > > -- > > Giles > > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 01:35:37 2011 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 20:35:37 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111202203643.GJ6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson@eol.ca> On Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:36:43 -0500 lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 03:04:10PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > > I have had exactly the same experience, but with KDE, so I think it is > > more a matter of personal preference. KDE always seems like a > > nightmare to make anything work the way I want it, and I find the look > > of it kind of awkward. I hate the file chooser dialogue beyond > > comprehension. > > > > I only use maybe half a dozen apps on a regular basis, so maybe that > > has something to do with it. I hate the KDE menu, I don't need even a > > fraction of the applications. > > > > Gnome 3 without the Tweak Tool would be infuriating for anyone with a > > desire for a lot of personalization, but now that I have that working > > I honestly don't see what's missing. > > Actually it is infuriating to anyone wanting to just work. > > I expect and want very little: > > I want my programs to be in a box that I can resize, minimize and > maximize. I like it if double clicking the title bar toggles maximize > on/off. > > I want alt+tab to switch between windows. > > I like alt+f2 to give me a box to type a command to run. This is the > only way other than typing stuff in an xterm I use to start things. > I don't ever use menus. > > I expect sloppy focus. If I point at a window, give it focus. If I > alt+tab to a window, give it focuas and bring it to the top. If I click > on it, bring it to the top.... Lennart, I use FVWM2 most of the time. I love multiple windows. FVWM is the only window manager I know of that allows you to keep a non-focus window on top of the focus window. I find this handy for copy and paste. Other than that, I like speed and reliability, which FVWM has. I have been configuring it to work exactly as I damn well please since 1996. I don't see the point of Gnome_3.0. It seems to take more mouse clicks to do anything. It looks cool, but that is way down my list of window manager requirements. I want to locate files, launch applications, and move from application to application when I have multiple things running. I did not appreciate it when I had problems with accelerated video, and Gnome_3 refused to work. 3D_Video should not be a requirement of the desktop. The KDE with Fedora_15 is vastly improved. It launches almost immediately now. It was easier to personalize then I recall previously. I also played with XFCE a bit. It works. It is small and fast. It is predicable and configurable to someone used to Microsoft Windows. I am not looking for new paradigms. There is a Linux advocacy issue here. People remark to me that they have an old computer that, probably, will not run the latest version of Microsoft Windows. They are curious about Linux. The old Gnome was a good solution for these people, and it provided enough eye candy to keep power users happy. I am not sure what to tell people now. Definitely, they should install KDE, if or nothing else to get KDM, which can be configured to not display the user list. XFCE is a good low powered window manager, but I do not know how well the Linux community supports it. It uses a lot of old, now-obsolete Gnome tools. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 02:49:45 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 21:49:45 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:36:43 -0500 > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 03:04:10PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: >> > I have had exactly the same experience, but with KDE, so I think it is >> > more a matter of personal preference. KDE always seems like a >> > nightmare to make anything work the way I want it, and I find the look >> > of it kind of awkward. I hate the file chooser dialogue beyond >> > comprehension. >> > >> > I only use maybe half a dozen apps on a regular basis, so maybe that >> > has something to do with it. I hate the KDE menu, I don't need even a >> > fraction of the applications. >> > >> > Gnome 3 without the Tweak Tool would be infuriating for anyone with a >> > desire for a lot of personalization, but now that I have that working >> > I honestly don't see what's missing. >> >> Actually it is infuriating to anyone wanting to just work. >> >> I expect and want very little: >> >> I want my programs to be in a box that I can resize, minimize and >> maximize. ?I like it if double clicking the title bar toggles maximize >> on/off. >> >> I want alt+tab to switch between windows. >> >> I like alt+f2 to give me a box to type a command to run. ?This is the >> only way other than typing stuff in an xterm I use to start things. >> I don't ever use menus. >> >> I expect sloppy focus. ?If I point at a window, give it focus. ?If I >> alt+tab to a window, give it focuas and bring it to the top. ?If I click >> on it, bring it to the top.... > > Lennart, > > ? I use FVWM2 most of the time. ?I love multiple windows. ?FVWM is the only window manager I know of that allows you to keep a non-focus window on top of the focus window. ?I find this handy for copy and paste. ?Other than that, I like speed and reliability, which FVWM has. ?I have been configuring it to work exactly as I damn well please since 1996. > > ? I don't see the point of Gnome_3.0. ?It seems to take more mouse clicks to do anything. ?It looks cool, but that is way down my list of window manager requirements. ?I want to locate files, launch applications, and move from application to application when I have multiple things running. ?I did not appreciate it when I had problems with accelerated video, and Gnome_3 refused to work. ?3D_Video should not be a requirement of the desktop. > > ? The KDE with Fedora_15 is vastly improved. ?It launches almost immediately now. ?It was easier to personalize then I recall previously. ?I also played with XFCE a bit. ?It works. ?It is small and fast. ?It is predicable and configurable to someone used to Microsoft Windows. ?I am not looking for new paradigms. > > ? There is a Linux advocacy issue here. ?People remark to me that they have an old computer that, probably, will not run the latest version of Microsoft Windows. ?They are curious about Linux. ?The old Gnome was a good solution for these people, and it provided enough eye candy to keep power users happy. ?I am not sure what to tell people now. ?Definitely, they should install KDE, if or nothing else to get KDM, which can be configured to not display the user list. ?XFCE is a good low powered window manager, but I do not know how well the Linux community supports it. ?It uses a lot of old, now-obsolete Gnome tools. Gnome is perfectly fine on old computers. I am still using my Pentium 4 with an old AGP NVidia card, it runs very fast. Web browsers contending with content-heavy sites are going to tax a computer far more than the desktop environment. I believe at least one person on this list has looked very closely at the resources used by XFCE, and as far as memory it uses just as much as Gnome or KDE. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 18:47:08 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 13:47:08 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 05:00:13PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > I think from what you described as your basic needs, it met 90% of > them by default. And it wasn incapable of meeting some of the basic ones at all. 90% isn't that good either. All I ever had to do in gnome 2.x and kde has been to weak the focus setting, and ocationally a couple of keyboard shortcuts. gnome 3 could not even be fixed with extensive tweaking. > It has one thin panel at the top of the screen. The dock doesn't > appear unless you select the Activities menu. There are no applets > loaded by default except the standards that everyone is used to. The > icon for Pidgin is under Applications --> Internet. Not the icon for launching it (I never use the menus for that). The icon for the running pidgin (it was running). > Personal experience and preferences are valid, but I don't think the > fact that it's missing a maximize button by default qualifies it as a > total failure of design standards. Ehm, yeah actually it does. Cleary no consideration to users was given what so ever. Someone with a huge ego had an idea for how they thought the desktop world shold be and decided to implement it hijacking a rather popular project in the process. What they should have done is go make a new project with a new name for their new invention and let gnome users keep using gnome. Apparently a complete lack of regard for users is becoming a new trend in open source projects. Just look at the huge long newsgroup argument over the lead UX guy from mozilla wanting to remove the version number from help->about. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 18:52:01 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 13:52:01 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20111203185201.GM6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 08:35:37PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > I use FVWM2 most of the time. I love multiple windows. FVWM is the only window manager I know of that allows you to keep a non-focus window on top of the focus window. I find this handy for copy and paste. Other than that, I like speed and reliability, which FVWM has. I have been configuring it to work exactly as I damn well please since 1996. I am pretty sure kde can do that to. Of course since I expect clickin on the window to bring it to the top, I guess my way of working wouldn't work with that. > I don't see the point of Gnome_3.0. It seems to take more mouse clicks to do anything. It looks cool, but that is way down my list of window manager requirements. I want to locate files, launch applications, and move from application to application when I have multiple things running. I did not appreciate it when I had problems with accelerated video, and Gnome_3 refused to work. 3D_Video should not be a requirement of the desktop. Yeah it might be usuable with a touch screen, but I don't have one of those (really wouldn't wan one. My screen gets dirty enough as it is). > The KDE with Fedora_15 is vastly improved. It launches almost immediately now. It was easier to personalize then I recall previously. I also played with XFCE a bit. It works. It is small and fast. It is predicable and configurable to someone used to Microsoft Windows. I am not looking for new paradigms. I just switched my work machine from kde4 to xfce4 yesterday. Wow the machine is fast again. Who knew kde was wasting that much ram and cpu. > There is a Linux advocacy issue here. People remark to me that they have an old computer that, probably, will not run the latest version of Microsoft Windows. They are curious about Linux. The old Gnome was a good solution for these people, and it provided enough eye candy to keep power users happy. I am not sure what to tell people now. Definitely, they should install KDE, if or nothing else to get KDM, which can be configured to not display the user list. XFCE is a good low powered window manager, but I do not know how well the Linux community supports it. It uses a lot of old, now-obsolete Gnome tools. Certainly with low resources kde and gnome3 are bad choices. gnome 2 was OK. xfce looks very good for it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 20:18:39 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:18:39 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111203185201.GM6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson@eol.ca> <20111203185201.GM6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDA841F.5040308@utoronto.ca> On 12/03/2011 01:52 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> There is a Linux advocacy issue here. People remark to me that they have an old computer that, probably, will not run the latest version of Microsoft Windows. They are curious about Linux. The old Gnome was a good solution for these people, and it provided enough eye candy to keep power users happy. I am not sure what to tell people now. Definitely, they should install KDE, if or nothing else to get KDM, which can be configured to not display the user list. XFCE is a good low powered window manager, but I do not know how well the Linux community supports it. It uses a lot of old, now-obsolete Gnome tools. > > Certainly with low resources kde and gnome3 are bad choices. gnome 2 > was OK. xfce looks very good for it. Linux Mint with LXDE is worth a try for folks who want an up to date distro that uses a light weight desktop environment. It uses GTK+ so running any Gnome or XFCE application isnt' going to incur much more overhead. http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1802 I haven't tried the Fedora version, but it should perform just as well. http://spins.fedoraproject.org/lxde/ Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 20:24:11 2011 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 15:24:11 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111203185201.GM6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson@eol.ca> <20111203185201.GM6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Certainly with low resources kde and gnome3 are bad choices. ?gnome 2 > was OK. ?xfce looks very good for it. GNOME 3 has been fine for me on lesser computers. I haven't tried it on less than a Pentium IV, though. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 20:26:43 2011 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 15:26:43 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111203184708.GL6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Ehm, yeah actually it does. ?Cleary no consideration to users was given > what so ever. ?Someone with a huge ego had an idea for how they thought > the desktop world shold be and decided to implement it hijacking a rather > popular project in the process. Lennart, I see someone with a huge ego who says a project should remain static to suit *his* needs. Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 22:17:09 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 17:17:09 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Michael Hill wrote: > On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > >> Ehm, yeah actually it does. ?Cleary no consideration to users was given >> what so ever. ?Someone with a huge ego had an idea for how they thought >> the desktop world shold be and decided to implement it hijacking a rather >> popular project in the process. > > Lennart, I see someone with a huge ego who says a project should > remain static to suit *his* needs. I'm with Lennart on this one... Making massive changes to a project is a risky matter, and if it was functioning reasonably well, before, then it's worth considering whether Massive Change should, instead, be proposed as a "fork." If you're killing off backwards compatibility, then you're on is likely, in essence, a new project, and it should be called such. It looks a lot like what's happening with Gnome is a whole lot like this. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 22:33:23 2011 From: mdhillca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Hill) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 17:33:23 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > If you're killing off backwards compatibility, then you're on is > likely, in essence, a new project, and it should be called such. ?It > looks a lot like what's happening with Gnome is a whole lot like this. Why is GNOME the first project to be held to that standard? I've been around Linux long enough to have seen backwards compatibility killed off before. Where would we be if it hadn't? Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 3 22:50:14 2011 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 17:50:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Sammy Lao wrote: > Yeah. KDE is fine now. > It was a horror show two years ago. When I tried KDE a few months ago I found it worse than the last time I tried it (a year or two earlier). Things I could do before to make it behave the way I wanted were no longer possible. So, after fighting with KDE for a few hours, I went back to WindowMaker. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 03:42:22 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:42:22 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111204034222.GN6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 03:26:43PM -0500, Michael Hill wrote: > Lennart, I see someone with a huge ego who says a project should > remain static to suit *his* needs. No it should not be static, but don't throw away what you have just to go try some stupid idea. Given the number of gnome users that have abandoned gnome because of gnome 3, clearly the project leads are idiots. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 03:50:18 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:50:18 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111204035018.GO6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 05:33:23PM -0500, Michael Hill wrote: > Why is GNOME the first project to be held to that standard? I've been > around Linux long enough to have seen backwards compatibility killed > off before. Where would we be if it hadn't? OK, try me. Name one. Who has totally thrown away the user interface If Unity can be a project for a new dsktop style, why couldn't the people that wanted someting totally new do someting like that instead of hijacked and breaking gnome? Gnome has lost many users and almost certainl a number of developers over this. Was this new desktop idea really worth that? If it was a good idea if would have survived and grown as a new project. You don't go an break the expectations of our users if you care about them as users. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 03:51:18 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:51:18 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111204035118.GP6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 05:50:14PM -0500, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > When I tried KDE a few months ago I found it worse than the last > time I tried it (a year or two earlier). > > Things I could do before to make it behave the way I wanted were no > longer possible. So, after fighting with KDE for a few hours, I went > back to WindowMaker. WindowMaker is certainly predictable. Did use that many years ago. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:16:43 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 23:16:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111204035018.GO6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111204035018.GO6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | If Unity can be a project for a new dsktop style, why couldn't the | people that wanted someting totally new do someting like that instead | of hijacked and breaking gnome? | | Gnome has lost many users and almost certainl a number of developers | over this. Was this new desktop idea really worth that? If it was a | good idea if would have survived and grown as a new project. | | You don't go an break the expectations of our users if you care about | them as users. As a Gnome 2 & 3 user, my opinion IN THIS CASE is strongly in agreement with Lennart. But I don't like that. Our systems are too complicated and intricate. Simplicity and elegance are important goals in computer systems. The horrible truth is that it is very hard to throw things away so almost all living computer systems grow worse over time by this metric. We really need to figure out how to simplify and eliminate features without killing the userbase. The Gnome Shell (by whatever name) has a long history of removing features and options. I've been bitten more than once. I've taken it philosophically in the past. I've not decided whether I will accept the losses with the move to Gnome 3's shell. And even if I end up accepting it, I probably won't think that this is a wise or kind change for most of the exiting userbase. Given all this simplification, why is the resulting system so fat? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:25:46 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 04:25:46 +0000 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 Message-ID: <2087727100-1322972746-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1360753347-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> The move to Gnome 3 (with accompanying Unity portion) was more than enough to cause me to abandon it altogether. KDE 4 does provide some nice tools (such as Amarok for music), but overall I find it runs a bit more slowly than previous iterations. I've begun using XFCE, which provides, to my mind, a nice balance of features a la KDE while maintaining the simplicity of Gnome. Neither Gnome 3 nor KDE have yet to produce a compelling reason for me to return to using them on a daily basis. I get enough of both KDE and Gnome at work, while my computers at home all run XFCE. I've managed to accomplish all the necessary tasks I have every using XFCE, as it has neither the speed issues of KDE nor the unpleasant interface of Gnome. ------Original Message------ From: D. Hugh Redelmeier Sender: owner-tlug at ss.org To: tlug at ss.org ReplyTo: tlug at ss.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Linus on Gnome 3.2 Sent: Dec 3, 2011 23:16 | From: Lennart Sorensen | If Unity can be a project for a new dsktop style, why couldn't the | people that wanted someting totally new do someting like that instead | of hijacked and breaking gnome? | | Gnome has lost many users and almost certainl a number of developers | over this. Was this new desktop idea really worth that? If it was a | good idea if would have survived and grown as a new project. | | You don't go an break the expectations of our users if you care about | them as users. As a Gnome 2 & 3 user, my opinion IN THIS CASE is strongly in agreement with Lennart. But I don't like that. Our systems are too complicated and intricate. Simplicity and elegance are important goals in computer systems. The horrible truth is that it is very hard to throw things away so almost all living computer systems grow worse over time by this metric. We really need to figure out how to simplify and eliminate features without killing the userbase. The Gnome Shell (by whatever name) has a long history of removing features and options. I've been bitten more than once. I've taken it philosophically in the past. I've not decided whether I will accept the losses with the move to Gnome 3's shell. And even if I end up accepting it, I probably won't think that this is a wise or kind change for most of the exiting userbase. Given all this simplification, why is the resulting system so fat? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:35:54 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 23:35:54 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson@eol.ca> <20111203185201.GM6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Michael Hill wrote: > On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > >> Certainly with low resources kde and gnome3 are bad choices. ?gnome 2 >> was OK. ?xfce looks very good for it. > > GNOME 3 has been fine for me on lesser computers. ?I haven't tried it > on less than a Pentium IV, though. > I'm finding Gnome 3.2 to be much more responsive than Gnome 2.3. Everything starts a lot faster, especially terminals and Chrome. Anything less than a P4 would be essentially useless for viewing web content anyway, no matter how light your desktop. My P4 is already too slow to run the most recent Iceweasel, it takes forever just to load GMail. Chrome is fine, of course. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 04:45:49 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 23:45:49 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111204035018.GO6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 11:16 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Lennart Sorensen > > | If Unity can be a project for a new dsktop style, why couldn't the > | people that wanted someting totally new do someting like that instead > | of hijacked and breaking gnome? > | > | Gnome has lost many users and almost certainl a number of developers > | over this. ?Was this new desktop idea really worth that? ?If it was a > | good idea if would have survived and grown as a new project. > | > | You don't go an break the expectations of our users if you care about > | them as users. > > As a Gnome 2 & 3 user, my opinion IN THIS CASE is strongly in > agreement with Lennart. > > But I don't like that. > > Our systems are too complicated and intricate. ?Simplicity and > elegance are important goals in computer systems. ?The horrible truth > is that it is very hard to throw things away so almost all living > computer systems grow worse over time by this metric. > > We really need to figure out how to simplify and eliminate features > without killing the userbase. > > The Gnome Shell (by whatever name) has a long history of removing > features and options. ?I've been bitten more than once. ?I've taken it > philosophically in the past. ?I've not decided whether I will accept > the losses with the move to Gnome 3's shell. > > And even if I end up accepting it, I probably won't think that this is > a wise or kind change for most of the exiting userbase. > > Given all this simplification, why is the resulting system so fat? I don't see Gnome 3 as all that radical a departure from Gnome 2. Apart from the hysteria over the removal of the restore button, I haven't even heard much in the way of _specific_ criticisms. It's mostly vague assumptions about how it works by people who haven't used it. I'm not saying there _aren't_ valid criticisms, but nothing fundamental is even missing, apart from the restore button. Gnome 3 actually runs much faster for me than Gnome 2 did. Has anyone actually observed a lot of users abandoning Gnome, or is this speculation? -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 05:09:35 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 00:09:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: | From: Howard Gibson | have an old computer that, probably, will not run the latest version | of Microsoft Windows. They are curious about Linux. The old Gnome | was a good solution for these people, and it provided enough eye | candy to keep power users happy. I am not sure what to tell people | now. Definitely, they should install KDE, if or nothing else to get | KDM, which can be configured to not display the user list. XFCE is a | good low powered window manager, but I do not know how well the Linux | community supports it. It uses a lot of old, now-obsolete Gnome | tools. I would really like to know where the fat is. Apparently not enough to cause me to do systematic research. There's a bit in Anecdotes: I have a reasonable older AMD64 Small Form Factor PC in my pile of spares. I decided to drop Ubuntu 11.10 on it to loan it to someone. It was horrible -- disk bound for a lot of stuff. I fixed that by upping the RAM from 512MiB to 1024MiB (rendering my other spare RAMless and useless). That's ridiculous. Note: RAM is cheap. I bought 8GiB for $30 today. But DDR3 won't work with boxes that require DDR1. The first box I bought to run Linux had 64MiB of RAM. That was serious overkill. When I decided to run X on my Sun 3 system (instead of SunView or whatever it was called), I thought it was prudent (not required) to upgrade to 8MiB of RAM. Even then I thought X to be excessively large and I said (immortalized in Henry's signature): The average pointer, statistically, points somewhere in X. The first widely used GUI system was the Mac. It came with 128KiB (not MiB or GiB) of RAM, a significant chunk of which was frame buffer. We all thought the RAM was too light; 512KiB was good. The Xerox Alto only had 128KiB of memory if I remember correctly. I know that newer systems do more and that there is no reason to be seriously stingy with memory so cheap, but what are we burning this memory on? In my history with X-based-systems, the memory requirements have gone up by a factor of almost 1000 -- truly mind boggling. One partial answer is caching. That is completely justifiable given how slowly disk speed is scaling compared with CPU speed. The other side of that coin is that with caching, programmers are sloppier about how much file access is being done because it is masked by caching on the machines they use. Example: when I first used UNIX, we kept our PATH lists short to cut down on the time the shell searched for a command. Nobody does that any more. When I type a bum command into bash these days, there is a noticeable delay as (I think) it consults a package manager to see if it can guess what I need to install the make my typo work. There's a parallel example. People tell me that systems implemented in Java are big and bloated and slow. But I can never get out of them why. My best guess is that the systems are so intricate that nobody understands them well enough to keep them simple. But that explanation based on is superstition, not science. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 05:11:41 2011 From: lance-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Lance F. Squire) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 00:11:41 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111204035018.GO6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDB010D.3090707@alteeve.com> Thomas Milne wrote: ... > Has anyone actually observed a lot of users abandoning Gnome, or is > this speculation? > I left. Took me longer and more annoyance to find and launch programs in G3 than G2. Way too much mouse movement and waiting for the pile-o-icons to load-up. I don't do Hot keys, and don't remember the exact name of every program I want to use. KDE was not to my taste. xfce is where I am now. Lance F. Squire -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 06:57:13 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:57:13 -0800 Subject: Encryption, paranoia and virtual machines In-Reply-To: <9678ed11-4bb7-4128-b942-f3311eaae381-2ueSQiBKiTY7tOexoI0I+QC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <20111125152312.GA23173@watson-wilson.ca> <4ECFD85D.6090409@utoronto.ca> <4ECFE23C.5020904@utoronto.ca> <4ECFF33D.9020707@utoronto.ca> <9678ed11-4bb7-4128-b942-f3311eaae381@email.android.com> Message-ID: on my phone it resolves just fine to the ss.org address. how interesting On Nov 28, 2011 3:06 AM, "R. Russell Reiter" wrote: > Ah, the enigma codes. The German esszett ligature (also called the > scharfes s (sharp s)) ? evolved from the ligature"long s over round s". > > It is replaced by 'SS' in capitalized spelling and in alphabetic ordering. > ? is only used in Germany and Austria, nowadays generally never in > Switzerland. > > The code might have been a little harder to crack if there weren't > apparantly orphaned SS's in messages. > > I wonder how tlug.?.org would resolve. > > Cheers, > Ru?ell > > Christopher Browne wrote: > > >Well, the "security" of the rolls mostly depends on the attacker not > >knowing how it works, and the majority of the population being > >comprised of > >illiterate slaves. Having 3 or 4 rolls of different sizes would > >suffice > >for cracking most of this; knowing the fact of variable roll size is > >99% of > >the trick. > > > >A considerable portion of security from encryption is achieved by > >minimizing the source text, notably to keep out readily guessable plain > >text. In WWII, British decryption efforts were helped plenty by German > >officers that considered it a "career limiting" factor *not* to end > >messages with "Heil Hitler". That perception mayn't have been wrong, > >but > >those bits of predictable plain text almost certainly caused the losses > >of > >German U-Boats, as it provided a vulnerability for Allied > >cryptographers to > >exploit. > > > >F. L. Bauer's book on cryptography describes other "politically > >necessary" > >sorts of cryptographic protocol failures - when messages contain > >fawning > >phrasing ("by order of the fuhrer") or spelling out some of the wacky > >long > >officer titles in high command, this all helps in attacking: > >A) individual messages > >B) message keys that will be used on other messages > >(Hence, the sloppy bozo may wind up getting others that are competent > >killed) > >C) the cipher system as a whole. > > > >Bauer observes that a *good* cryptograms clerk: > >- removes all unnecessary text > >- abbreviates heavily > >- misspells whatever they can > > > >That seems like it's likely to still be valid-ish. > > > >We do have stronger ciphers, today, but the notion that having known > >plaintext helps certainly persists in modern cryptanalysis. You'll see > >it > >a fair bit in Bruce Schneier's writing (sp?) > > > >On some extra reflection, there is a harmful aspect to encrypting your > >whole system, as this introduces a barrel load of known plaintext. > >Forget > >about a few references to Nazi haute, you are throwing in a dozen > >copies of > >the GPL, and as likely as not, a gigabyte of well-known binary and text > >data. Lots of material for cryptanalysis, quite possibly enough to > >meaningfully enhance a brute force attack. > > > >And when it's certain that the key for all that will be in the VM, a > >smart > >attacker won't bother with brute force when getting the key from the VM > >will provide the Keys To The Kingdom. Better still, once cracked, you > >can't fix it - changing the key requires rebuilding your VM. A > >*really* > >smart attacker may be sufficiently ready that they'll regain access > >before > >you can reboot into the new VM! > > R. Russell Reiter's Left Brain Messaging Matrix > [Currently Under Development] Your mileage may vary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 12:50:15 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 07:50:15 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111204035018.GO6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDB6C87.2010508@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The Gnome Shell (by whatever name) has a long history of removing > features and options. I've been bitten more than once. I've taken it > philosophically in the past. I've not decided whether I will accept > the losses with the move to Gnome 3's shell. > When I first started with Linux, several years ago, I tried and gave up on Gnome because I found it too limiting. It'd be nice if they had both useful and dumbed down versions of a desktop available. Anyone developing a desktop should give the OS/2 desktop (Workplace Shell) a good look. There were a lot of excellent features in it that I haven't seen elsewhere. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 14:31:51 2011 From: andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Andrew Heagle) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 09:31:51 -0500 Subject: Recovering openLDAP rootdn In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201112040931.51776.andrew@logaan.com> On November 11, 2011 04:55:35 pm you wrote: > Pals, > > Is there a way one can over change openLDAP rootdn password without > starting from scratch? I have googled for hours and I seem not to be > in luck today? > > ldapadd -x -D "cn=admin,dc=example,dc=local" -W -f ppolicy.ldif > SASL/DIGEST-MD5 authentication started > ldap_sasl_interactive_bind_s: Invalid credentials (49) > > > ldapmodify -r -D 'cn=admin,dc=example,dc=local' -W < ppolicy.ldif > Enter LDAP Password: > SASL/DIGEST-MD5 authentication started > ldap_sasl_interactive_bind_s: Invalid credentials (49) > > > > william:~# sasldblistusers2 > admin at william: userPassword > kvoort at william: userPassword > user at william: userPassword > > Just curious if there is someone out there who has had such an experience > > Regards, > > William The password for the rootdn account is specified is in the configuration itself, its the rootpw option. Use the slappasswd to generate a new hashed password. If you are using the slapd.conf file, just change the rootpw option and restart. If you are using the slapd.d "configuration system", and you are sure your slapd.config is up-to-date, you can change the rootpw option and run slaptest -f slapd.conf -F slapd.d If you have write access to your cn=config database via LDAP, then you can change the password in there. Look for the olcRootPW attribute Otherwise, you'll have to find the proper oldRootPW entry in your slapd.d configuration, eg, slapd.d/cn=config/olcDatabase={1}hdb.ldif and update the olcRootPW attribute with a Base64 encoded slappasswd password that you generated before. Hope its not too late. Andrew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 16:48:59 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 11:48:59 -0500 Subject: Recovering openLDAP rootdn In-Reply-To: <201112040931.51776.andrew-vUgxaBqSMS7QT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <201112040931.51776.andrew@logaan.com> Message-ID: Andrew, Thanks for the response. > The password for the rootdn account is specified is in the configuration > itself, its the rootpw option. Use the slappasswd to generate a new hashed > password. Actually with openLDAP 2.4, its also possible to store it at the back end with other user information and that is where it get tricky. That happen to be my current case, we re using slapd.conf file - The old way of setting up openLDAP - but there is no password on the configuration file. Thats the first thing I checked. Really confused, I researched and realized one can now also save it on the backend. ldapsearch, which do not require password for binding do dump that super root user which confirmed my hypothesis > > If you are using the slapd.conf file, just change the rootpw option and > restart. > > If you are using the slapd.d "configuration system", and you are sure your > slapd.config is up-to-date, you can change the rootpw option and run slaptest > -f slapd.conf -F slapd.d > > If you have write access to your cn=config database via LDAP, then you can > change the password in there. Look for the olcRootPW attribute > > Otherwise, you'll have to find the proper oldRootPW entry in your slapd.d > configuration, eg, slapd.d/cn=config/olcDatabase={1}hdb.ldif and update the > olcRootPW attribute with a Base64 encoded slappasswd password that you > generated before. Hmm, just actually learned something here. I was initially introducing olcRootPW without encoding it and slapd would refuse to accept it. It eventually worked when I used the ldapadd utility but now that you mentioned that, may be I could have modified it directly through vim > > > Hope its not too late. > Actually, I chickened out and did not change it on the old openLDAP. The way I went around it, I setup a new openLDAP from scratch and initially set it up as a slave. Later, I configured both to be master master and when I need to make change with ldapmodify, I just do it with the new openLDAP and its replicated to the old slapd. Inefficient I know, but I was not confident doing any change I would not know how to revert And the new openLDAP configuration is just a pain. It took me two weeks to figure out how to setup up one a fresh without using slaptest to convert the old configuration to the new configuration. I am afraid these guys just managed to get the learning curve more steep > > Andrew > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 18:08:02 2011 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:08:02 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson@eol.ca> <20111203185201.GM6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111204130802.e8992d77.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 23:35:54 -0500 Thomas Milne wrote: > > I'm finding Gnome 3.2 to be much more responsive than Gnome 2.3. > Everything starts a lot faster, especially terminals and Chrome. > > Anything less than a P4 would be essentially useless for viewing web > content anyway, no matter how light your desktop. My P4 is already too > slow to run the most recent Iceweasel, it takes forever just to load > GMail. Chrome is fine, of course. Thomas, You make some points there. The FVWM2 window manager and Sylpheed email ran fine on my old Pentium II/350. I replaced it because OpenOffice would not work. I did not have high speed internet at the time, so I was unable to cause browser problems. At work, I run SolidWorks 2011 under Windows XP Pro. 3D mechanical CAD, definitely including SolidWorks, is a brutal thing to do to your computer. SolidWorks crashes a lot, and it does weird things to the Windows environment as the memory runs out. One of the standard bits of advice to SolidWorks users is to save memory and turn off the eye candy. This means I use the plainest window decorations available. I was sad at having to turn off the waddling dinosaur mouse icon. I have work to do, and the desktop actually is a minimal part of my experience. It is mostly Outlook, Explorer, SolidWorks, and Microsoft Excel. I don't have anything anywhere near as abuse under Linux. I would assume that the OS is better protected from memory hogs, but it has been a few years since I have activated swap. I would love it if they would port SolidWorks to Linux. I think that people's primary criticism of Gnome_3 is that it is inefficient. It takes a maximum number of mouse clicks to find your files and applications, and to switch from application to application. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 18:56:48 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 13:56:48 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <20111202200008.GI6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> On 12/02/2011 03:00 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 01:18:49PM -0500, Ted wrote: >> people not seeing this stability yet with kde 4.x ? > > No kde 4.x is fine now. I'm a long-time KDE user and fan. KDE 4 was hard to like for a few years because it seemed that a lot of time and effort was put into things I didn't care about, like eye candy at the expense of features that I valued from KDE 3, like stability, apps that mostly worked, etc. Recently, I upgraded to Fedora 16 from the long since deprecated Fedora 13. For a few days, I really couldn't use KDE because any GTK app would be very unresponsive. I read similar reports on-line and figured that it would eventually get fixed so in the meantime, I attempted to live a GTK-free existence, which meant no Thunderbird and back to KMail, which I had abandoned when it became unusable coincident with the switch to KDE 4. KMail is much better now but I still don't "get" the grab bag of "funny" names, Nepomuk, Akonadi, etc. I'll have to read up what they're trying to accomplish with that. There were a few irritants that were large enough with KMail to have me considering other mail clients until I thought, "Wait a minute. I use Thunderbird on three different operating systems. It's *the* mission-critical application for me. Why should I have to switch from it just because the desktop manager is broken, even if temporarily?" so I decided to try a few different desktop/window managers. I had read enough about Gnome 3 that I wasn't enthusiastic about trying it, and I'd never really warmed up to previous versions of Gnome anyway, so I installed LXDE, ICEWM, WindowMaker, and BlackBox. I attempted to install XFce but for whatever reason, I never managed to see it in the available choices on the login screen. The GTK issue disappeared with the other window managers but I found myself missing things that I took for granted, like the ability to hover my mouse over the clock in the bottom right corner of my KDE panel and see the local time in time zones of interest to me. Silly? Perhaps but that's an essential productivity tool for me. I also tend to have many open windows so I've become dependent on Alt-Tab, point and click on the list of open windows to bring a window to the foreground. Right-mouse click on the background to bring up a list of open windows as I'd have to do with some of the desktop/window managers I tried just wasn't the same because with many windows open, I usually can't see much desktop. I don't want to have to remember to leave a bit of desktop exposed and have to mouse all the way to that little bit just to see my list of open windows. Virtually all of the desktop/window managers support some sort of Alt-Tab cycling through windows but when you have many windows open, it's not especially useful to have to cycle through every window to get to the last one on the stack. When I analyzed the memory consumption between the "lightweight" window/desktop managers and KDE, with the amount of RAM I have in my system (8GB), it was really negligible. I was "wasting" at most 100M of RAM to run KDE compared to the other ones so "lightweight" really depends on ones perspective. ICEWM wasn't usable out-of-the-box without reading docs and figuring out why there weren't any applications in the menu. Once I figured that out, it was pretty easy to configure the application menu as I wanted but that exposed yet another difference between KDE and all of the "lightweight" window/desktop managers. In KDE, I have the option of seeing my menus by function of the program and then the program name underneath it in a smaller font. Certain programs, like XChat, Thunderbird, Google Chrome, Konsole, Kate, I know what they do without having to be told "IRC", "Email", "Web Browser", "Terminal", "Text Editor" but others, like Karbon14, which I use infrequently, I can't remember the name without being told that it's a "Scalable Graphics" program. The whole point of these systems is supposed to be to make us more productive. If I have to spend time Googling or launching applications that I think might be the one I'm looking for instead of just launching an application that's labelled "Scalable Graphics", I would be penny-wise and pound-foolish. For the sake of "saving" some negligible amount of RAM compared to the total pool of RAM I have, I would essentially pay for that RAM the first time I had to spend a few minutes trying to remember what the name of that obscure application that did XYZ was. Getting back to GTK apps slowing down to a crawl on KDE 4.7x on Fedora 16, I kept an eye updates to see if there were any KDE, nVidia driver (I use the proprietary binary), or kernel updates and I would test with KDE to see if the problem was fixed. It took less than a week for the problem to be fixed and I was back in business with KDE again. When I run out of system resources, damned Flash is implicated every single time. I need Flash in my work so being a "purist" and running without Flash isn't an option. I noticed the same issue using ICEWM so I know it has nothing to do with the desktop/window manager. There are a few things that I don't have in KDE 4 that I had in KDE 3 that I miss. * I used to be able to sort Konsole sessions, as they used to be called in KDE 3, but sorting profiles, as they're called in KDE 4, is no longer possible. There used to be buttons in the "Manage Profiles" window for "Move Up" and "Move Down" in earlier versions of KDE 4 but they were always greyed out. Those buttons have since disappeared so now there isn't even a pretense that my dozens of profiles can be sorted. Sometimes, it's just faster for me to type "ssh foo-+RB1Aph5k6s at public.gmane.org" than to hunt through the unordered list of dozens of profiles for same. I'd like to be able to not only sort the profiles but arrange them in logical groupings in folders. For instance, I have access to multiple virtual machines running on multiple physical machines. One grouping could be physical machine -> virtual machine. * I use Kate like an "IDE", though it's not really an all-singing, all-singing IDE like Eclipse, et al. It was ultra-stable until whatever version is in Fedora 16. Now, it crashes occasionally. * KMail is still only barely usable for me. It seems to be quite slow with IMAP folders, which it also was back in the KDE 3 days. It doesn't report how many unread messages are in a given folders as it used to in KDE 3. It doesn't report new messages in my IMAP folders unless I click on the folders, which when you have hundreds of folders is a bit of a problem. Thunderbird started behaving the same way after I started using server-side filtering with Sieve. Other people have reported the same problem but none of the guesses have been helpful. The one that seemed credible was that the IMAP server, Dovecot in this case, didn't support the IMAP IDLE command. That wasn't the case so I'm patrolling important message folders manually. Sigh... * I used to use kdissert, a mind-mapping tool in KDE 3. It has since been superseded by Semantik. Semantik seems nice, except when you attempt to print the pretty diagram you just created to a PDF. It *only* prints what is visible in the window's view port, not the whole document and there seems to be no obvious way to do otherwise. That means I wasted a bunch of time doing a mind map of a project I'm working on only to discover after I'd done that there was no easy way to share what I'd done with other project participants, all of whom use OS X. I had to fiddle with the diagram to get it to fit within the view port but that's fragile because the next object I added, it rearranged the diagram automatically. This pushes me some on-line hosted application that I don't really trust, bubble.us, so I'm looking for better alternatives. I've seen some Java-based cross-platform app but it has the handicap of being Java-based, which I'm reluctant to install because every time I install anything Java-based, it seems to be a pig and it always seems to disappoint. (Case in point: Eclipse. I have a rant about it that I'll have to save for another day.) Yet another, "Sigh..." One general irritant in KDE 4: * The mouse is "twitchy". I gave up on using a PS/2 mouse and keyboard long ago with Fedora 13 because I'd lose control of the keyboard and mouse after some random interval ranging from minutes to hours. I've been using a USB keyboard and an optical mouse since then. The problem has been that the mouse would often jump to almost any old place on the screen when given just the slightest nudge. (I haven't tried another mouse yet.) This made what seemed like a useful feature, hotspots on screen corners to do certain things like expose the widget dashboard, show all windows on all desktops, show just the desktop, and show only windows for the current application, a la OS X, utterly useless. On OS X, this works marvellously well. On KDE 4, it's unusable because the mouse seemed to find its way to the hotspots when I didn't mean to have it there. I'll have to try this with a new mouse to see if it makes any difference. Kudos in KDE 4: * Speed, speed, speed - The "lightweight" desktop/window managers are supposed to be so much faster. It only takes a few seconds more by the time my KDE desktop is ready for use compared to the "lightweight" desktops but once it's ready for use, there is no appreciable difference in any operation that I've noticed, even with eye candy like fancy effects and transparency enabled. * Configurability - I like being able to configure my environment as I like. I don't want to have to use the default out of fear of the distro clobbering my changes as I upgrade. I upgraded to Fedora 16 from 13 by doing a fresh install. Just to be on the safe side, I physically disconnected the drive(s) that has /home on it during the installation, which meant a bit more work after installation but I could then be certain that an installer bug couldn't screw up my /home. After I rebooted after reconnecting the drive(s) containing /home and enabling them in fstab, my old configuration was completely preserved. All told, the upgrade/fresh install took me about 1.5 hours from start to finish. It was pretty much painless but I knew about things like volume UUIDs, etc. so I had done some prep work in advance that made things go smoothly. After I restored /home to the one I had before the upgrade, the only thing that had changed in the look and feel of KDE for me was the wallpaper. That was a pretty smooth upgrade compared to the upgrade from KDE 3 to KDE 4. By the way, I don't expect "ordinary" users to be able to disconnect the drive(s) containing /home, fiddling with volume IDs and correcting fstab after installation, etc. so I have no idea what the experience would be like for the average Windows or OS X user. Actually, I do know. They'd be completely lost. For Windows users, the upgrade path is buying a new machine. For OS X users, it's a bit smoother. I'm not sure I care since I doubt Linux will ever be viable as a mainstream desktop OS. Even in countries where the cost of a Windows license represents a monthly, or in some cases, an annual income, people use Windows because it just so happens that those countries have a vibrant counterfeiting market so licensing is a non-issue for them. * UI - I think the KDE team have done a great job of creating a modern interface that is competitive in terms of look and feel with the other two mainstream operating systems. To anyone who is familiar with Windows, it doesn't seem like an alien environment. For instance, my 11 year old daughter can (and does) sit in front of KDE 4 and with no training whatsoever figures out what she needs to do in order to use the applications she needs, which are word processor, spreadsheet, and web browser. Things work as I would expect them to work. By the way, I use multiple desktops only because I want to isolate certain applications, like GIMP, on their own desktop. GIMP opens a mess of windows and bringing one window to the foreground doesn't bring all windows associated with GIMP to the foreground as it should to be usable so rather than grumble about it, I just open it in its own virtual desktop and switch to that desktop by clicking on the pager I have in my panel when I need to access GIMP. There might be a keyboard equivalent for switching desktops but I haven't found it to be important enough to me to find out. What it boils down to is that KDE 4 is really stable and fast and it has features I value. I can't say the same about all KDE 4 applications though but the only KDE applications upon which I have dependencies are Konsole and Kate. I used to develop pyKDE applications but I don't do that any more so I no longer have a dependency on KDE as a developer. I use XChat, though I would probably be fine with using Konversation. I use Thunderbird and I might be able to live with KMail if I had to. I use LibreOffice but I haven't tried any of the KOffice stuff. The last time I'd tried, which was a couple of years ago, KOffice apps were not even half-baked. As I think about how I work, I could probably live happily on OS X if it were not for the stupid keyboards on Macs and the fact that without a coherent way of managing packages, it tends to be more of a pain than it's worth to use MacPorts and such to install software I care about. I might even be happy enough on Windows 7 for my desktop environment but I haven't used Windows 7 very much. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 19:51:48 2011 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 14:51:48 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <4EDBC270.50009-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> As a original Kde user, then on gnome for last 3-4 years, wanting to go back to kde, i find one question with your report below, i was under the understanding, and this has been how i operated in the past, that as long as the libraries are installed, you can run any kde app, i.e. i run kb3 (or whatever burn program is called), on gnome desktop, and when i was using kde, i was running apps from gnome project on kde. I am confused that when you talk about the different desktops, that you can't effectively run apps from the other desktops collection of apps.??? If I go back to KDE, and run KDE4, i would expect to be able to run banshee, Thunderbird, etc, but your experience seems to cast darkness on that. Guess i will have to experience for myself. Now i understand if you use a gnome app in kde DT, or a kde app in gnome DT, you lose some of the features inherent to the DT, i.e. some drag drop, and replacement of windows on next load, but most functionality should work irregardless of the gnome app on KDE, or kde app on gnome? At least that has been my experience. -tl On 12/04/2011 01:56 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On 12/02/2011 03:00 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 01:18:49PM -0500, Ted wrote: >>> people not seeing this stability yet with kde 4.x ? >> >> No kde 4.x is fine now. > > I'm a long-time KDE user and fan. KDE 4 was hard to like for a few > years because it seemed that a lot of time and effort was put into > things I didn't care about, like eye candy at the expense of features > that I valued from KDE 3, like stability, apps that mostly worked, > etc. Recently, I upgraded to Fedora 16 from the long since deprecated > Fedora 13. For a few days, I really couldn't use KDE because any GTK > app would be very unresponsive. I read similar reports on-line and > figured that it would eventually get fixed so in the meantime, I > attempted to live a GTK-free existence, which meant no Thunderbird and > back to KMail, which I had abandoned when it became unusable > coincident with the switch to KDE 4. KMail is much better now but I > still don't "get" the grab bag of "funny" names, Nepomuk, Akonadi, > etc. I'll have to read up what they're trying to accomplish with that. > > There were a few irritants that were large enough with KMail to have > me considering other mail clients until I thought, "Wait a minute. I > use Thunderbird on three different operating systems. It's *the* > mission-critical application for me. Why should I have to switch from > it just because the desktop manager is broken, even if temporarily?" > so I decided to try a few different desktop/window managers. I had > read enough about Gnome 3 that I wasn't enthusiastic about trying it, > and I'd never really warmed up to previous versions of Gnome anyway, > so I installed LXDE, ICEWM, WindowMaker, and BlackBox. I attempted to > install XFce but for whatever reason, I never managed to see it in the > available choices on the login screen. > > The GTK issue disappeared with the other window managers but I found > myself missing things that I took for granted, like the ability to > hover my mouse over the clock in the bottom right corner of my KDE > panel and see the local time in time zones of interest to me. Silly? > Perhaps but that's an essential productivity tool for me. I also tend > to have many open windows so I've become dependent on Alt-Tab, point > and click on the list of open windows to bring a window to the > foreground. Right-mouse click on the background to bring up a list of > open windows as I'd have to do with some of the desktop/window > managers I tried just wasn't the same because with many windows open, > I usually can't see much desktop. I don't want to have to remember to > leave a bit of desktop exposed and have to mouse all the way to that > little bit just to see my list of open windows. Virtually all of the > desktop/window managers support some sort of Alt-Tab cycling through > windows but when you have many windows open, it's not especially > useful to have to cycle through every window to get to the last one on > the stack. > > When I analyzed the memory consumption between the "lightweight" > window/desktop managers and KDE, with the amount of RAM I have in my > system (8GB), it was really negligible. I was "wasting" at most 100M > of RAM to run KDE compared to the other ones so "lightweight" really > depends on ones perspective. ICEWM wasn't usable out-of-the-box > without reading docs and figuring out why there weren't any > applications in the menu. Once I figured that out, it was pretty easy > to configure the application menu as I wanted but that exposed yet > another difference between KDE and all of the "lightweight" > window/desktop managers. > > In KDE, I have the option of seeing my menus by function of the > program and then the program name underneath it in a smaller font. > Certain programs, like XChat, Thunderbird, Google Chrome, Konsole, > Kate, I know what they do without having to be told "IRC", "Email", > "Web Browser", "Terminal", "Text Editor" but others, like Karbon14, > which I use infrequently, I can't remember the name without being told > that it's a "Scalable Graphics" program. The whole point of these > systems is supposed to be to make us more productive. If I have to > spend time Googling or launching applications that I think might be > the one I'm looking for instead of just launching an application > that's labelled "Scalable Graphics", I would be penny-wise and > pound-foolish. For the sake of "saving" some negligible amount of RAM > compared to the total pool of RAM I have, I would essentially pay for > that RAM the first time I had to spend a few minutes trying to > remember what the name of that obscure application that did XYZ was. > > Getting back to GTK apps slowing down to a crawl on KDE 4.7x on Fedora > 16, I kept an eye updates to see if there were any KDE, nVidia driver > (I use the proprietary binary), or kernel updates and I would test > with KDE to see if the problem was fixed. It took less than a week for > the problem to be fixed and I was back in business with KDE again. > When I run out of system resources, damned Flash is implicated every > single time. I need Flash in my work so being a "purist" and running > without Flash isn't an option. I noticed the same issue using ICEWM so > I know it has nothing to do with the desktop/window manager. > > There are a few things that I don't have in KDE 4 that I had in KDE 3 > that I miss. > > * I used to be able to sort Konsole sessions, as they used to be > called in KDE 3, but sorting profiles, as they're called in KDE 4, is > no longer possible. There used to be buttons in the "Manage Profiles" > window for "Move Up" and "Move Down" in earlier versions of KDE 4 but > they were always greyed out. Those buttons have since disappeared so > now there isn't even a pretense that my dozens of profiles can be > sorted. Sometimes, it's just faster for me to type "ssh foo-+RB1Aph5k6s at public.gmane.org" > than to hunt through the unordered list of dozens of profiles for > same. I'd like to be able to not only sort the profiles but arrange > them in logical groupings in folders. For instance, I have access to > multiple virtual machines running on multiple physical machines. One > grouping could be physical machine -> virtual machine. > > * I use Kate like an "IDE", though it's not really an all-singing, > all-singing IDE like Eclipse, et al. It was ultra-stable until > whatever version is in Fedora 16. Now, it crashes occasionally. > > * KMail is still only barely usable for me. It seems to be quite slow > with IMAP folders, which it also was back in the KDE 3 days. It > doesn't report how many unread messages are in a given folders as it > used to in KDE 3. It doesn't report new messages in my IMAP folders > unless I click on the folders, which when you have hundreds of folders > is a bit of a problem. Thunderbird started behaving the same way after > I started using server-side filtering with Sieve. Other people have > reported the same problem but none of the guesses have been helpful. > The one that seemed credible was that the IMAP server, Dovecot in this > case, didn't support the IMAP IDLE command. That wasn't the case so > I'm patrolling important message folders manually. Sigh... > > * I used to use kdissert, a mind-mapping tool in KDE 3. It has since > been superseded by Semantik. Semantik seems nice, except when you > attempt to print the pretty diagram you just created to a PDF. It > *only* prints what is visible in the window's view port, not the whole > document and there seems to be no obvious way to do otherwise. That > means I wasted a bunch of time doing a mind map of a project I'm > working on only to discover after I'd done that there was no easy way > to share what I'd done with other project participants, all of whom > use OS X. I had to fiddle with the diagram to get it to fit within the > view port but that's fragile because the next object I added, it > rearranged the diagram automatically. This pushes me some on-line > hosted application that I don't really trust, bubble.us, so I'm > looking for better alternatives. I've seen some Java-based > cross-platform app but it has the handicap of being Java-based, which > I'm reluctant to install because every time I install anything > Java-based, it seems to be a pig and it always seems to disappoint. > (Case in point: Eclipse. I have a rant about it that I'll have to save > for another day.) Yet another, "Sigh..." > > One general irritant in KDE 4: > > * The mouse is "twitchy". I gave up on using a PS/2 mouse and keyboard > long ago with Fedora 13 because I'd lose control of the keyboard and > mouse after some random interval ranging from minutes to hours. I've > been using a USB keyboard and an optical mouse since then. The problem > has been that the mouse would often jump to almost any old place on > the screen when given just the slightest nudge. (I haven't tried > another mouse yet.) This made what seemed like a useful feature, > hotspots on screen corners to do certain things like expose the widget > dashboard, show all windows on all desktops, show just the desktop, > and show only windows for the current application, a la OS X, utterly > useless. On OS X, this works marvellously well. On KDE 4, it's > unusable because the mouse seemed to find its way to the hotspots when > I didn't mean to have it there. I'll have to try this with a new mouse > to see if it makes any difference. > > Kudos in KDE 4: > > * Speed, speed, speed - The "lightweight" desktop/window managers are > supposed to be so much faster. It only takes a few seconds more by the > time my KDE desktop is ready for use compared to the "lightweight" > desktops but once it's ready for use, there is no appreciable > difference in any operation that I've noticed, even with eye candy > like fancy effects and transparency enabled. > > * Configurability - I like being able to configure my environment as I > like. I don't want to have to use the default out of fear of the > distro clobbering my changes as I upgrade. I upgraded to Fedora 16 > from 13 by doing a fresh install. Just to be on the safe side, I > physically disconnected the drive(s) that has /home on it during the > installation, which meant a bit more work after installation but I > could then be certain that an installer bug couldn't screw up my > /home. After I rebooted after reconnecting the drive(s) containing > /home and enabling them in fstab, my old configuration was completely > preserved. All told, the upgrade/fresh install took me about 1.5 hours > from start to finish. It was pretty much painless but I knew about > things like volume UUIDs, etc. so I had done some prep work in advance > that made things go smoothly. After I restored /home to the one I had > before the upgrade, the only thing that had changed in the look and > feel of KDE for me was the wallpaper. That was a pretty smooth upgrade > compared to the upgrade from KDE 3 to KDE 4. > > By the way, I don't expect "ordinary" users to be able to disconnect > the drive(s) containing /home, fiddling with volume IDs and correcting > fstab after installation, etc. so I have no idea what the experience > would be like for the average Windows or OS X user. Actually, I do > know. They'd be completely lost. For Windows users, the upgrade path > is buying a new machine. For OS X users, it's a bit smoother. I'm not > sure I care since I doubt Linux will ever be viable as a mainstream > desktop OS. Even in countries where the cost of a Windows license > represents a monthly, or in some cases, an annual income, people use > Windows because it just so happens that those countries have a vibrant > counterfeiting market so licensing is a non-issue for them. > > * UI - I think the KDE team have done a great job of creating a modern > interface that is competitive in terms of look and feel with the other > two mainstream operating systems. To anyone who is familiar with > Windows, it doesn't seem like an alien environment. For instance, my > 11 year old daughter can (and does) sit in front of KDE 4 and with no > training whatsoever figures out what she needs to do in order to use > the applications she needs, which are word processor, spreadsheet, and > web browser. Things work as I would expect them to work. > > By the way, I use multiple desktops only because I want to isolate > certain applications, like GIMP, on their own desktop. GIMP opens a > mess of windows and bringing one window to the foreground doesn't > bring all windows associated with GIMP to the foreground as it should > to be usable so rather than grumble about it, I just open it in its > own virtual desktop and switch to that desktop by clicking on the > pager I have in my panel when I need to access GIMP. There might be a > keyboard equivalent for switching desktops but I haven't found it to > be important enough to me to find out. > > What it boils down to is that KDE 4 is really stable and fast and it > has features I value. I can't say the same about all KDE 4 > applications though but the only KDE applications upon which I have > dependencies are Konsole and Kate. I used to develop pyKDE > applications but I don't do that any more so I no longer have a > dependency on KDE as a developer. I use XChat, though I would probably > be fine with using Konversation. I use Thunderbird and I might be able > to live with KMail if I had to. I use LibreOffice but I haven't tried > any of the KOffice stuff. The last time I'd tried, which was a couple > of years ago, KOffice apps were not even half-baked. > > As I think about how I work, I could probably live happily on OS X if > it were not for the stupid keyboards on Macs and the fact that without > a coherent way of managing packages, it tends to be more of a pain > than it's worth to use MacPorts and such to install software I care > about. I might even be happy enough on Windows 7 for my desktop > environment but I haven't used Windows 7 very much. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 20:56:35 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 15:56:35 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <4EDBCF54.8040907-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> On 12/04/2011 02:51 PM, Ted wrote: > As a original Kde user, then on gnome for last 3-4 years, wanting to go > back to kde, > i find one question with your report below, > i was under the understanding, and this has been how i operated in the > past, > that as long as the libraries are installed, you can run any kde app, > i.e. i run kb3 (or whatever burn program is called), on gnome desktop, > and when i was using kde, i was running apps from gnome project on kde. > I am confused that when you talk about the different desktops, that you > can't effectively run apps from the other desktops collection of apps.??? [snip] That is normally the case, correct. However, I, and many others, noticed that GTK applications would run intolerably slow with the version of KDE that shipped with Fedora 16 on the day that F16 went live. For instance, if I typed in Thunderbird or XChat, the characters would appear some seconds after-the-fact and mouse was very unresponsive, as if the machine had a high load average, which wasn't the case at all. If I typed in a KDE app, there was no problem. I thought it might have had something to do with the nouveau driver so I installed the proprietary binary driver but that made no difference. The problem was resolved with updates to KDE, the kernel, and the nVidia driver. I don't know what specifically fixed the problem but GTK apps have been fine since then. It was a transient and unusual problem. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 21:49:35 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 16:49:35 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111204130802.e8992d77.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203537.32caf1ef.hgibson@eol.ca> <20111203185201.GM6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111204130802.e8992d77.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 23:35:54 -0500 > Thomas Milne wrote: > > >> >> I'm finding Gnome 3.2 to be much more responsive than Gnome 2.3. >> Everything starts a lot faster, especially terminals and Chrome. >> >> Anything less than a P4 would be essentially useless for viewing web >> content anyway, no matter how light your desktop. My P4 is already too >> slow to run the most recent Iceweasel, it takes forever just to load >> GMail. Chrome is fine, of course. > > Thomas, > > ? You make some points there. ?The FVWM2 window manager and Sylpheed email ran fine on my old Pentium II/350. ?I replaced it because OpenOffice would not work. ?I did not have high speed internet at the time, so I was unable to cause browser problems. > > ? At work, I run SolidWorks 2011 under Windows XP Pro. ?3D mechanical CAD, definitely including SolidWorks, is a brutal thing to do to your computer. ?SolidWorks crashes a lot, and it does weird things to the Windows environment as the memory runs out. ?One of the standard bits of advice to SolidWorks users is to save memory and turn off the eye candy. ?This means I use the plainest window decorations available. ?I was sad at having to turn off the waddling dinosaur mouse icon. ?I have work to do, and the desktop actually is a minimal part of my experience. ?It is mostly Outlook, Explorer, SolidWorks, and Microsoft Excel. > > ? I don't have anything anywhere near as abuse under Linux. ?I would assume that the OS is better protected from memory hogs, but it has been a few years since I have activated swap. ?I would love it if they would port SolidWorks to Linux. > > ? I think that people's primary criticism of Gnome_3 is that it is inefficient. ?It takes a maximum number of mouse clicks to find your files and applications, and to switch from application to application. > It depends. Like Lennart, I tend to use Alt-F2 to launch apps, so I haven't noticed any changes. But even if you use the new Gnome 3 menu, once they are added to favourites it's only one or two clicks to launch an app, like it would be with any menu system I would guess. If you pick out the worst possible way to do things on any desktop it's going to be awkward. I think that's what's happening with a lot of people using Gnome 3. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 22:03:41 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 17:03:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <4EDBDE83.9080700-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> Message-ID: | From: CLIFFORD ILKAY | However, I, and many others, noticed that | GTK applications would run intolerably slow with the version of KDE that | shipped with Fedora 16 on the day that F16 went live. For instance, if I typed | in Thunderbird or XChat, the characters would appear some seconds | after-the-fact and mouse was very unresponsive, as if the machine had a high | load average, which wasn't the case at all. If I typed in a KDE app, there was | no problem. I thought it might have had something to do with the nouveau | driver so I installed the proprietary binary driver but that made no | difference. The problem was resolved with updates to KDE, the kernel, and the | nVidia driver. I don't know what specifically fixed the problem but GTK apps | have been fine since then. It was a transient and unusual problem. Pet peeve: distro releases seem to not be very good these days. You are better off installing a distro, say, a month after release, and then applying all the updates. That makes the release CDs only a starting place. Even worse live CDs or USB sticks are doomed to be poor. I wish more distros were released when they got to a stable point. Alternatively, I wish more releases would let you download a .iso that reflected the current state of updates. Or some state that folks discovered was a local optimum. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 22:14:04 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 17:14:04 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 5:03 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: CLIFFORD ILKAY > > | ?However, I, and many others, noticed that > | GTK applications would run intolerably slow with the version of KDE that > | shipped with Fedora 16 on the day that F16 went live. For instance, if I typed > | in Thunderbird or XChat, the characters would appear some seconds > | after-the-fact and mouse was very unresponsive, as if the machine had a high > | load average, which wasn't the case at all. If I typed in a KDE app, there was > | no problem. I thought it might have had something to do with the nouveau > | driver so I installed the proprietary binary driver but that made no > | difference. ?The problem was resolved with updates to KDE, the kernel, and the > | nVidia driver. I don't know what specifically fixed the problem but GTK apps > | have been fine since then. It was a transient and unusual problem. > > Pet peeve: distro releases seem to not be very good these days. ?You > are better off installing a distro, say, a month after release, and > then applying all the updates. > > That makes the release CDs only a starting place. ?Even worse live CDs or > USB sticks are doomed to be poor. > > I wish more distros were released when they got to a stable point. You mean like Debian? ;) > Alternatively, I wish more releases would let you download a .iso that > reflected the current state of updates. ?Or some state that folks > discovered was a local optimum. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 22:48:36 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 17:48:36 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <4EDBC270.50009-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20111204224836.GQ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 01:56:48PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > As I think about how I work, I could probably live happily on OS X > if it were not for the stupid keyboards on Macs and the fact that > without a coherent way of managing packages, it tends to be more of > a pain than it's worth to use MacPorts and such to install software > I care about. I might even be happy enough on Windows 7 for my > desktop environment but I haven't used Windows 7 very much. No fink anymore? Anything to do with the BSD ports would be a pain. fink is Debian based and hence has lovely package management. http://www.finkproject.org/ -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 22:49:17 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 17:49:17 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <4EDBC270.50009-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 1:56 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On 12/02/2011 03:00 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> >> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 01:18:49PM -0500, Ted wrote: >>> >>> people not seeing this stability yet with kde 4.x ? >> >> >> No kde 4.x is fine now. > > > I'm a long-time KDE user and fan. KDE 4 was hard to like for a few years > because it seemed that a lot of time and effort was put into things I didn't > care about, like eye candy at the expense of features that I valued from KDE > 3, like stability, apps that mostly worked, etc. Recently, I upgraded to > Fedora 16 from the long since deprecated Fedora 13. For a few days, I really > couldn't use KDE because any GTK app would be very unresponsive. I read > similar reports on-line and figured that it would eventually get fixed so in > the meantime, I attempted to live a GTK-free existence, which meant no > Thunderbird and back to KMail, which I had abandoned when it became unusable > coincident with the switch to KDE 4. KMail is much better now but I still > don't "get" the grab bag of "funny" names, Nepomuk, Akonadi, etc. I'll have > to read up what they're trying to accomplish with that. > > There were a few irritants that were large enough with KMail to have me > considering other mail clients until I thought, "Wait a minute. I use > Thunderbird on three different operating systems. It's *the* > mission-critical application for me. Why should I have to switch from it > just because the desktop manager is broken, even if temporarily?" so I > decided to try a few different desktop/window managers. I had read enough > about Gnome 3 that I wasn't enthusiastic about trying it, and I'd never > really warmed up to previous versions of Gnome anyway, so I installed LXDE, > ICEWM, WindowMaker, and BlackBox. I attempted to install XFce but for > whatever reason, I never managed to see it in the available choices on the > login screen. > > The GTK issue disappeared with the other window managers but I found myself > missing things that I took for granted, like the ability to hover my mouse > over the clock in the bottom right corner of my KDE panel and see the local > time in time zones of interest to me. Silly? Perhaps but that's an essential > productivity tool for me. I also tend to have many open windows so I've > become dependent on Alt-Tab, point and click on the list of open windows to > bring a window to the foreground. Right-mouse click on the background to > bring up a list of open windows as I'd have to do with some of the > desktop/window managers I tried just wasn't the same because with many > windows open, I usually can't see much desktop. I don't want to have to > remember to leave a bit of desktop exposed and have to mouse all the way to > that little bit just to see my list of open windows. Virtually all of the > desktop/window managers support some sort of Alt-Tab cycling through windows > but when you have many windows open, it's not especially useful to have to > cycle through every window to get to the last one on the stack. > > When I analyzed the memory consumption between the "lightweight" > window/desktop managers and KDE, with the amount of RAM I have in my system > (8GB), it was really negligible. I was "wasting" at most 100M of RAM to run > KDE compared to the other ones so "lightweight" really depends on ones > perspective. ICEWM wasn't usable out-of-the-box without reading docs and > figuring out why there weren't any applications in the menu. Once I figured > that out, it was pretty easy to configure the application menu as I wanted > but that exposed yet another difference between KDE and all of the > "lightweight" window/desktop managers. > > In KDE, I have the option of seeing my menus by function of the program and > then the program name underneath it in a smaller font. Certain programs, > like XChat, Thunderbird, Google Chrome, Konsole, Kate, I know what they do > without having to be told "IRC", "Email", "Web Browser", "Terminal", "Text > Editor" but others, like Karbon14, which I use infrequently, I can't > remember the name without being told that it's a "Scalable Graphics" > program. The whole point of these systems is supposed to be to make us more > productive. If I have to spend time Googling or launching applications that > I think might be the one I'm looking for instead of just launching an > application that's labelled "Scalable Graphics", I would be penny-wise and > pound-foolish. For the sake of "saving" some negligible amount of RAM > compared to the total pool of RAM I have, I would essentially pay for that > RAM the first time I had to spend a few minutes trying to remember what the > name of that obscure application that did XYZ was. > > Getting back to GTK apps slowing down to a crawl on KDE 4.7x on Fedora 16, I > kept an eye updates to see if there were any KDE, nVidia driver (I use the > proprietary binary), or kernel updates and I would test with KDE to see if > the problem was fixed. It took less than a week for the problem to be fixed > and I was back in business with KDE again. When I run out of system > resources, damned Flash is implicated every single time. I need Flash in my > work so being a "purist" and running without Flash isn't an option. I > noticed the same issue using ICEWM so I know it has nothing to do with the > desktop/window manager. > > There are a few things that I don't have in KDE 4 that I had in KDE 3 that I > miss. > > * I used to be able to sort Konsole sessions, as they used to be called in > KDE 3, but sorting profiles, as they're called in KDE 4, is no longer > possible. There used to be buttons in the "Manage Profiles" window for "Move > Up" and "Move Down" in earlier versions of KDE 4 but they were always greyed > out. Those buttons have since disappeared so now there isn't even a pretense > that my dozens of profiles can be sorted. Sometimes, it's just faster for me > to type "ssh foo-+RB1Aph5k6s at public.gmane.org" than to hunt through the unordered list of dozens > of profiles for same. I'd like to be able to not only sort the profiles but > arrange them in logical groupings in folders. For instance, I have access to > multiple virtual machines running on multiple physical machines. One > grouping could be physical machine -> virtual machine. > > * I use Kate like an "IDE", though it's not really an all-singing, > all-singing IDE like Eclipse, et al. It was ultra-stable until whatever > version is in Fedora 16. Now, it crashes occasionally. > > * KMail is still only barely usable for me. It seems to be quite slow with > IMAP folders, which it also was back in the KDE 3 days. It doesn't report > how many unread messages are in a given folders as it used to in KDE 3. It > doesn't report new messages in my IMAP folders unless I click on the > folders, which when you have hundreds of folders is a bit of a problem. > Thunderbird started behaving the same way after I started using server-side > filtering with Sieve. Other people have reported the same problem but none > of the guesses have been helpful. The one that seemed credible was that the > IMAP server, Dovecot in this case, didn't support the IMAP IDLE command. > That wasn't the case so I'm patrolling important message folders manually. > Sigh... > > * I used to use kdissert, a mind-mapping tool in KDE 3. It has since been > superseded by Semantik. Semantik seems nice, except when you attempt to > print the pretty diagram you just created to a PDF. It *only* prints what is > visible in the window's view port, not the whole document and there seems to > be no obvious way to do otherwise. That means I wasted a bunch of time doing > a mind map of a project I'm working on only to discover after I'd done that > there was no easy way to share what I'd done with other project > participants, all of whom use OS X. I had to fiddle with the diagram to get > it to fit within the view port but that's fragile because the next object I > added, it rearranged the diagram automatically. This pushes me some on-line > hosted application that I don't really trust, bubble.us, so I'm looking for > better alternatives. I've seen some Java-based cross-platform app but it has > the handicap of being Java-based, which I'm reluctant to install because > every time I install anything Java-based, it seems to be a pig and it always > seems to disappoint. (Case in point: Eclipse. I have a rant about it that > I'll have to save for another day.) Yet another, "Sigh..." > > One general irritant in KDE 4: > > * The mouse is "twitchy". I gave up on using a PS/2 mouse and keyboard long > ago with Fedora 13 because I'd lose control of the keyboard and mouse after > some random interval ranging from minutes to hours. I've been using a USB > keyboard and an optical mouse since then. The problem has been that the > mouse would often jump to almost any old place on the screen when given just > the slightest nudge. (I haven't tried another mouse yet.) This made what > seemed like a useful feature, hotspots on screen corners to do certain > things like expose the widget dashboard, show all windows on all desktops, > show just the desktop, and show only windows for the current application, a > la OS X, utterly useless. On OS X, this works marvellously well. On KDE 4, > it's unusable because the mouse seemed to find its way to the hotspots when > I didn't mean to have it there. I'll have to try this with a new mouse to > see if it makes any difference. > > Kudos in KDE 4: > > * Speed, speed, speed - The "lightweight" desktop/window managers are > supposed to be so much faster. It only takes a few seconds more by the time > my KDE desktop is ready for use compared to the "lightweight" desktops but > once it's ready for use, there is no appreciable difference in any operation > that I've noticed, even with eye candy like fancy effects and transparency > enabled. Most of what people say about Gnome or KDE being slow is totally without basis in fact, they're just repeating what they've heard in the internet echo chamber. > * Configurability - I like being able to configure my environment as I like. > I don't want to have to use the default out of fear of the distro clobbering > my changes as I upgrade. I upgraded to Fedora 16 from 13 by doing a fresh > install. Just to be on the safe side, I physically disconnected the drive(s) > that has /home on it during the installation, which meant a bit more work > after installation but I could then be certain that an installer bug > couldn't screw up my /home. After I rebooted after reconnecting the drive(s) > containing /home and enabling them in fstab, my old configuration was > completely preserved. All told, the upgrade/fresh install took me about 1.5 > hours from start to finish. It was pretty much painless but I knew about > things like volume UUIDs, etc. so I had done some prep work in advance that > made things go smoothly. After I restored /home to the one I had before the > upgrade, the only thing that had changed in the look and feel of KDE for me > was the wallpaper. That was a pretty smooth upgrade compared to the upgrade > from KDE 3 to KDE 4. > > By the way, I don't expect "ordinary" users to be able to disconnect the > drive(s) containing /home, fiddling with volume IDs and correcting fstab > after installation, etc. so I have no idea what the experience would be like > for the average Windows or OS X user. Actually, I do know. They'd be > completely lost. For Windows users, the upgrade path is buying a new > machine. For OS X users, it's a bit smoother. I'm not sure I care since I > doubt Linux will ever be viable as a mainstream desktop OS. Even in > countries where the cost of a Windows license represents a monthly, or in > some cases, an annual income, people use Windows because it just so happens > that those countries have a vibrant counterfeiting market so licensing is a > non-issue for them. > > * UI - I think the KDE team have done a great job of creating a modern > interface that is competitive in terms of look and feel with the other two > mainstream operating systems. To anyone who is familiar with Windows, it > doesn't seem like an alien environment. For instance, my 11 year old > daughter can (and does) sit in front of KDE 4 and with no training > whatsoever figures out what she needs to do in order to use the applications > she needs, which are word processor, spreadsheet, and web browser. Things > work as I would expect them to work. > > By the way, I use multiple desktops only because I want to isolate certain > applications, like GIMP, on their own desktop. GIMP opens a mess of windows > and bringing one window to the foreground doesn't bring all windows > associated with GIMP to the foreground as it should to be usable so rather > than grumble about it, I just open it in its own virtual desktop and switch > to that desktop by clicking on the pager I have in my panel when I need to > access GIMP. There might be a keyboard equivalent for switching desktops but > I haven't found it to be important enough to me to find out. That's the same with me, I like to keep Gimp on a different desktop. > What it boils down to is that KDE 4 is really stable and fast and it has > features I value. I can't say the same about all KDE 4 applications though > but the only KDE applications upon which I have dependencies are Konsole and > Kate. I used to develop pyKDE applications but I don't do that any more so I > no longer have a dependency on KDE as a developer. I use XChat, though I > would probably be fine with using Konversation. I use Thunderbird and I > might be able to live with KMail if I had to. I use LibreOffice but I > haven't tried any of the KOffice stuff. The last time I'd tried, which was a > couple of years ago, KOffice apps were not even half-baked. > > As I think about how I work, I could probably live happily on OS X if it > were not for the stupid keyboards on Macs and the fact that without a > coherent way of managing packages, it tends to be more of a pain than it's > worth to use MacPorts and such to install software I care about. I might > even be happy enough on Windows 7 for my desktop environment but I haven't > used Windows 7 very much. I think this is what I'm not getting: I really don't see that much difference between the desktops. KDE has some weird features that Gnome doesn't and vice versa I suppose, but nothing that's ever been so shocking to me. The only difference for me, and I suspect for a lot of people whether they are aware of it or not, is the look and feel. Once someone settles on something that feels right to them, it's of course only a matter of time before they mould it to their individual procedures. After that, other desktops, with their default configurations, are of course going to feel awkward. That's exactly how I found KDE when I tried it out. I could not find the things I wanted, I was wasting huge amounts of time navigating menus trying to find configuration dialogues. But that's not because KDE is designed badly, it's because I'm not used to it. The only thing that kept me from using KDE was I could not find any way to configure it that didn't look gaudy to me. Everything was too shiny and colourful. If I had tried harder I'm sure it's there somewhere, but I couldn't find any glaring difference in KDE that made it worth testing as an alternative to Gnome. Honestly, I don't even see what's the big difference with the Windows interface. It has a menu, it has alt-tab, it has favourites, it has a taskbar. The focus model is annoying if I remember correctly, but seriously, is it REALLY that different? This whole Gnome vs. KDE thing has always struck me as totally overblown. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 22:51:44 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 17:51:44 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20111204225144.GR6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 05:14:04PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 5:03 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > I wish more distros were released when they got to a stable point. > > You mean like Debian? ;) And yet some of us run Debian unstable on our machines. :) Not that it really ever seems to break much. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 22:57:59 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 17:57:59 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <20111204225144.GR6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> <20111204225144.GR6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 05:14:04PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 5:03 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> > I wish more distros were released when they got to a stable point. >> >> You mean like Debian? ;) > > And yet some of us run Debian unstable on our machines. :) I don't want to start a brand new debate, but I would put Debian Unstable up against any 'stable' release of other distros. Not going to mention even one single name though. > Not that it really ever seems to break much. > Sometimes it seems to, and I panic briefly, then I log out and back in and everything's fine again. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 4 23:09:20 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:09:20 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <20111204224836.GQ6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <20111204224836.GQ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDBFDA0.2080008@dinamis.com> On 12/04/2011 05:48 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 01:56:48PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> As I think about how I work, I could probably live happily on OS X >> if it were not for the stupid keyboards on Macs and the fact that >> without a coherent way of managing packages, it tends to be more of >> a pain than it's worth to use MacPorts and such to install software >> I care about. I might even be happy enough on Windows 7 for my >> desktop environment but I haven't used Windows 7 very much. > > No fink anymore? Anything to do with the BSD ports would be a pain. > fink is Debian based and hence has lovely package management. > > http://www.finkproject.org/ I had tried that on a G4 Mac a couple of years ago. Both ports and fink sucked, though for different reasons if I recall. I can't remember my specific complaints but I remember lots of frustration and giving up in disgust. It might be better with a faster machine like my i5 MacBook Pro. I haven't cared enough to try. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 00:11:45 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 19:11:45 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4EDC0C41.5090500@dinamis.com> On 12/04/2011 05:03 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Pet peeve: distro releases seem to not be very good these days. You > are better off installing a distro, say, a month after release, and > then applying all the updates. You're right and that's usually what I do. Fedora 13 was dead enough that I was motivated to make the switch. I supposed I could have waited a bit longer but once the mood struck me, I was committed to doing it. > That makes the release CDs only a starting place. Even worse live CDs or > USB sticks are doomed to be poor. I used the live CD. > I wish more distros were released when they got to a stable point. > > Alternatively, I wish more releases would let you download a .iso that > reflected the current state of updates. Or some state that folks > discovered was a local optimum. One of my rationales for installing Fedora 16 the day that the stable version started shipping was that after I'd finished downloading the live CD and installing, I wouldn't have to download another 300M of updates immediately thereafter since there presumably wouldn't be much to update at that point. You see, it's 1995 all over again for Internet service where our sucky ISPs have forced us to start thinking about every last byte we're downloading to keep those "overage" charges to a minimum, and despite that, I managed to rack up $60 of "overage" charges on the piece of crap Internet service known as Sympatico. (I know this list is archived so I'm trying to help Sympatico with some SEO.) How did I manage that? I have no idea. My "generous" cap is 20GB, which of course is wholly inadequate since the other piece of crap ISP, Rogers, that I dumped after having been with them for 13 years, so "generously" gave me 60GB, which I'd blow past on a regular basis. My kids used to watch stuff on YouTube back in the days of "good Internet service", as my 11 year old daughter calls our pre-Sympatico days. I had cancelled Rogers before I went on vacation in August and neglected to place an order with TekSavvy before I left. By the time I returned, TekSavvy had a "stop sell" order in my area (York Mills) due to congestion on their network. They were waiting for Rogers to provision additional bandwidth to start selling again. It was provisioned but within days and before I got around to placing an order with them, the "stop sell" was reinstated because the network was, once again, congested. I've been patiently waiting for TekSavvy to get their act together in my neighbourhood since late August so I've been using Sympatico as a stopgap measure since early September. Sympatico has to be the worst ISP I've ever used. I have outages multiple times a day ranging from 30 seconds to a few minutes. I've been keeping an eye on the TekSavvy blog to understand why they still have a "stop sell" order in my area. While I'm sympathetic to TekSavvy and I really want there to be a vibrant independent ISP market, after following this issue closely for the last few months, I'm beginning to wonder if it will ever be possible for TekSavvy and other smaller ISPs to have a chance with the two incumbents in this area having such a stranglehold on the "last mile". Neither of the incumbents have any incentive to cooperate and in fact, have every incentive to make the lives of the incumbents as difficult as possible by taking forever to provision additional connections, consistently missing promised installation dates, dragging their feet in responding to serious issues like the Rogers network splits that affected DHCP for TekSavvy customers, "accidentally" disconnecting third-party ISP connections, etc. It's a system designed to put the third-party ISPs and their customers at the mercy of the incumbents who only begrudgingly allow access to their networks. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 00:31:17 2011 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 19:31:17 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDC10D5.3090800@sobac.com> On 11-12-02 05:14 PM, Michael Hill wrote: > On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:54 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >> Annoyance: clicking on the xterm icon doesn't give you a new xterm, it >> gives you an old one. You have to right click on the xterm icon and >> chose "new window". > Ctrl-Click should open a new window. Or if you have a wheelie mouse, use the wheel to click. --Bob. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 00:43:16 2011 From: bjonkman-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Bob Jonkman) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 19:43:16 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <20111203184708.GL6035-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDC13A4.4010303@sobac.com> On 11-12-03 01:47 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Just look at the huge long newsgroup argument > over the lead UX guy from mozilla wanting to remove the version number > from help->about. Which newsgroup is that, Lennart? --Bob. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 01:14:29 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:14:29 -0500 Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <4EDC13A4.4010303-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202210612.GK6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111203184708.GL6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDC13A4.4010303@sobac.com> Message-ID: <20111205011429.GS6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 07:43:16PM -0500, Bob Jonkman wrote: > On 11-12-03 01:47 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >Just look at the huge long newsgroup argument > >over the lead UX guy from mozilla wanting to remove the version number > >from help->about. > > Which newsgroup is that, Lennart? mozilla.dev.useability Specificly: http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.usability/browse_thread/thread/fe75ec92c02be934/8a9c8fd36308ad00?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=removing+firefox+version+number#8a9c8fd36308ad00 -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 01:26:42 2011 From: peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Peter King) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:26:42 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20111205012642.GB3428@amber> On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 05:03:41PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I wish more distros were released when they got to a stable point. Gentoo uses so-called "rolling releases" -- install once, then update as needed. Every now and then there is a big change and you have to pay a bit of attention, but it's always well-flagged and everything works as described. When it doesn't, it gets corrected right away. (There was a small bug in the binutils package last week, and it was corrected within five hours; since it was Gentoo, they also posted the patch earlier, within three hours, so you could just fix the source yourself.) I moved to Gentoo from running a mix of Debian Testing/Unstable, and never looked back; it's as solid as they are but with a lot more control over the low-level innards. Binary distributions are convenient but you pay a price for them. -- Peter King peter.king-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-978-4951 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 01:27:15 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:27:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Linus on Gnome 3.2 In-Reply-To: <4EDC10D5.3090800-w5ExpX8uLjYAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181156.GG6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111202203643.GJ6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDC10D5.3090800@sobac.com> Message-ID: | From: Bob Jonkman | On 11-12-02 05:14 PM, Michael Hill wrote: | > On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:54 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > | > > Annoyance: clicking on the xterm icon doesn't give you a new xterm, it | > > gives you an old one. You have to right click on the xterm icon and | > > chose "new window". | > Ctrl-Click should open a new window. | | Or if you have a wheelie mouse, use the wheel to click. I tried that. Got a new xterm in a new desktop. Odd. Why would I want that? It seems to be intentional: While I have your attention: do you know the order of windows in the matrix of scale models in the "overview"? The overview is apparently undocumented. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 11:48:08 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (R. Russell Reiter) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 06:48:08 -0500 Subject: Encryption, paranoia and virtual machines In-Reply-To: References: <20111125152312.GA23173@watson-wilson.ca> <4ECFD85D.6090409@utoronto.ca> <4ECFE23C.5020904@utoronto.ca> <4ECFF33D.9020707@utoronto.ca> <9678ed11-4bb7-4128-b942-f3311eaae381@email.android.com> Message-ID: This is interesting, what phone are you using? Do you think its some sort of best guess factor of the phone browser? Ie. you surf to tlug.ss.org enough that the phone guesses that is where you want to go. I can't use the link from my phone, in fact it doesn't highlight it as a link. Although checking gmail from the web does show it as a clickable link, however it does not resolve to anything. The 404 not found page is what shows up. Tyler Aviss wrote: >on my phone it resolves just fine to the ss.org address. how >interesting >On Nov 28, 2011 3:06 AM, "R. Russell Reiter" >wrote: > >> Ah, the enigma codes. The German esszett ligature (also called the >> scharfes s (sharp s)) ? evolved from the ligature"long s over round >s". >> >> It is replaced by 'SS' in capitalized spelling and in alphabetic >ordering. >> ? is only used in Germany and Austria, nowadays generally never in >> Switzerland. >> >> The code might have been a little harder to crack if there weren't >> apparantly orphaned SS's in messages. >> >> I wonder how tlug.?.org would resolve. >> >> Cheers, >> Ru?ell >> >> Christopher Browne wrote: >> >> >Well, the "security" of the rolls mostly depends on the attacker not >> >knowing how it works, and the majority of the population being >> >comprised of >> >illiterate slaves. Having 3 or 4 rolls of different sizes would >> >suffice >> >for cracking most of this; knowing the fact of variable roll size is >> >99% of >> >the trick. >> > >> >A considerable portion of security from encryption is achieved by >> >minimizing the source text, notably to keep out readily guessable >plain >> >text. In WWII, British decryption efforts were helped plenty by >German >> >officers that considered it a "career limiting" factor *not* to end >> >messages with "Heil Hitler". That perception mayn't have been wrong, >> >but >> >those bits of predictable plain text almost certainly caused the >losses >> >of >> >German U-Boats, as it provided a vulnerability for Allied >> >cryptographers to >> >exploit. >> > >> >F. L. Bauer's book on cryptography describes other "politically >> >necessary" >> >sorts of cryptographic protocol failures - when messages contain >> >fawning >> >phrasing ("by order of the fuhrer") or spelling out some of the >wacky >> >long >> >officer titles in high command, this all helps in attacking: >> >A) individual messages >> >B) message keys that will be used on other messages >> >(Hence, the sloppy bozo may wind up getting others that are >competent >> >killed) >> >C) the cipher system as a whole. >> > >> >Bauer observes that a *good* cryptograms clerk: >> >- removes all unnecessary text >> >- abbreviates heavily >> >- misspells whatever they can >> > >> >That seems like it's likely to still be valid-ish. >> > >> >We do have stronger ciphers, today, but the notion that having known >> >plaintext helps certainly persists in modern cryptanalysis. You'll >see >> >it >> >a fair bit in Bruce Schneier's writing (sp?) >> > >> >On some extra reflection, there is a harmful aspect to encrypting >your >> >whole system, as this introduces a barrel load of known plaintext. >> >Forget >> >about a few references to Nazi haute, you are throwing in a dozen >> >copies of >> >the GPL, and as likely as not, a gigabyte of well-known binary and >text >> >data. Lots of material for cryptanalysis, quite possibly enough to >> >meaningfully enhance a brute force attack. >> > >> >And when it's certain that the key for all that will be in the VM, a >> >smart >> >attacker won't bother with brute force when getting the key from the >VM >> >will provide the Keys To The Kingdom. Better still, once cracked, >you >> >can't fix it - changing the key requires rebuilding your VM. A >> >*really* >> >smart attacker may be sufficiently ready that they'll regain access >> >before >> >you can reboot into the new VM! >> >> R. Russell Reiter's Left Brain Messaging Matrix >> [Currently Under Development] Your mileage may vary. -- R. Russell Reiter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 5 13:23:11 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 08:23:11 -0500 Subject: Geek at the Eye Doctor Message-ID: <4EDCC5BF.4050101@rogers.com> http://www.datamation.com/imagesvr_ce/5678/geek-eye-doctor.jpg ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 03:07:56 2011 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 22:07:56 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:20 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 10:30 PM, James Knott > wrote: > > An interesting bit of history. > > > > > http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix/1 > It definitely brings back the warmth memories when I was learning the Unix system in the University, and the legendary stories about its genius authors. - "The first edition of Unix let programmers call 34 different low-level routines built into the operating system. It's a testament to the system's enduring nature that nearly all of these system calls are still available?and still heavily used?on modern Unix and Linux systems four decades on. " - The "first-?edition Unix provided a remarkably powerful environment for software development. Yet it contained just 4200 lines of code at its heart and occupied a measly 16 KB of main memory when it ran." Anyone still remember what's the gross line count, including the comments? I remember it was around 10,000, and I remember my prof quoting from the author, something like, 10,000 lines of code, that's about the maximum one can handle (memories each function and each line of code). Was it, or was it about the *A Commentary on the Unix Operating System*book that we learned, or neither? That was a great story. I was really interested in the idea of running > the original Unix. That would be very cool, to run Unix 1.0 in some > kind of emulator on my linux machine. Would that be possible? > Yep, as in the article, ..." a copy of the first edition of Unix[is] running on an emulated PDP-11/20." http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1 Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 04:59:08 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 23:59:08 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <4EDC0C41.5090500-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> <4EDC0C41.5090500@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20111206045908.GC3418@waltdnes.org> On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 07:11:45PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote > I've been patiently waiting for TekSavvy to get their act together in my > neighbourhood since late August so I've been using Sympatico as a > stopgap measure since early September. Sympatico has to be the worst ISP > I've ever used. I have outages multiple times a day ranging from 30 > seconds to a few minutes. I've been keeping an eye on the TekSavvy blog > to understand why they still have a "stop > sell" order in my area. If you can use Sympatico DSL, why can't you use Teksavvy DSL? It's the same infrastructure. Given the complaints about Teksavvy cable on their forum in dslreports.com, I'm perfectly happy with my ADSL service. I'm on the 5 (soon to be 6) megabit 300 gigs/month for $31.95/month plan. The unlimited version is $39.96/month. Tek also has higher speed plans 12/1, 16/1, and 25/7 megabits, at higher prices. But these higher speed plans are all limited to 300 gigs/month. See http://teksavvy.com/en/res-internet.asp#adsl -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 13:56:18 2011 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: Wireless for wired computers? Message-ID: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C@acm.org> We have two networks in the house. Upstairs, there's a wireless router, hooked to cable, with one wired computer and a number of wireless devices. The downstairs network -- much older -- connects through DSL and includes two computers that can't use wireless. The need for those two systems to access the net has become infrequent but still exists. I had the idea this morning that I could eliminate the DSL line, modem, and router if I had a box that combined a wireless client with a few wired ethernet ports. Essentially, it would connect to the upstairs wireless router (distance isn't a problem) and broker that connection to computers that used its physical ports. Does such a thing exist and, if so, what would I call it when I went shopping? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 14:17:54 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 09:17:54 -0500 Subject: Wireless for wired computers? In-Reply-To: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org> References: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C@acm.org> Message-ID: <4EDE2412.1010302@utoronto.ca> On 12/06/2011 08:56 AM, Phillip Mills wrote: > We have two networks in the house. Upstairs, there's a wireless router, hooked to cable, with one wired computer and a number of wireless devices. The downstairs network -- much older -- connects through DSL and includes two computers that can't use wireless. The need for those two systems to access the net has become infrequent but still exists. > > I had the idea this morning that I could eliminate the DSL line, modem, and router if I had a box that combined a wireless client with a few wired ethernet ports. Essentially, it would connect to the upstairs wireless router (distance isn't a problem) and broker that connection to computers that used its physical ports. > > Does such a thing exist and, if so, what would I call it when I went shopping? I think you can do that with WDS and Open/DD/Tomato WRT firmwares on wireless routers. I've never tried, but I know I see the option in those on my WRT54GL/DIR-825 routers. Or even easier, I think you can make the router a wifi client of the upstairs unit. That or put a PCI wireless card in one of the downstairs boxes and add a 4 port ethernet card to it? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 14:55:43 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 06:55:43 -0800 Subject: Wireless for wired computers? In-Reply-To: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org> References: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C@acm.org> Message-ID: I believe what you're looking for isba wireless bridge to have ethernet on both end connected by wifi? a bridge, or router that does bridging, should do the job. Alternately, a linux/BSD box connected /w wifi and doing nat or running as a bridge might also do the trick On Dec 6, 2011 5:57 AM, "Phillip Mills" wrote: > We have two networks in the house. Upstairs, there's a wireless router, > hooked to cable, with one wired computer and a number of wireless devices. > The downstairs network -- much older -- connects through DSL and includes > two computers that can't use wireless. The need for those two systems to > access the net has become infrequent but still exists. > > I had the idea this morning that I could eliminate the DSL line, modem, > and router if I had a box that combined a wireless client with a few wired > ethernet ports. Essentially, it would connect to the upstairs wireless > router (distance isn't a problem) and broker that connection to computers > that used its physical ports. > > Does such a thing exist and, if so, what would I call it when I went > shopping? > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 15:09:08 2011 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 10:09:08 -0500 Subject: Wireless for wired computers? In-Reply-To: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org> References: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C@acm.org> Message-ID: <4EDE3014.6000003@gmail.com> On 06/12/2011 8:56 AM, Phillip Mills wrote: ... > Does such a thing exist and, if so, what would I call it when I went > shopping? A full hardware solution would be a wireless bridge plugged into a switch. They used to be more common. e.g.: http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=241 Tomato Linux does bridge mode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_(firmware) (as does dd-wrt and OpenWRT ) -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 15:22:44 2011 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 10:22:44 -0500 Subject: Wireless for wired computers? In-Reply-To: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org> References: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C@acm.org> Message-ID: <20111206152244.GA4478@yam.witteman.ca> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 08:56:18AM -0500, Phillip Mills wrote: >Does such a thing exist and, if so, what would I call it when I went shopping? I've got a wireless bridge sitting unused in my basement. It's only got one port, but you could easily add a hub to get you more wired access. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 15:32:28 2011 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 10:32:28 -0500 Subject: Wireless for wired computers? In-Reply-To: <4EDE3014.6000003-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C@acm.org> <4EDE3014.6000003@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks to the various people who pointed me at wireless bridges. I'll think about that. On 2011-12-06, at 10:09 AM, Mike Kallies wrote: > They used to be more common It seems that any current, multi-port ones I can find are aimed at game boxes, video cameras, printers, media players, and such. I wonder if that's a limitation or a marketing strategy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 15:37:45 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 10:37:45 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <20111206045908.GC3418-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> <4EDC0C41.5090500@dinamis.com> <20111206045908.GC3418@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111206153745.GA9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 11:59:08PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > If you can use Sympatico DSL, why can't you use Teksavvy DSL? It's > the same infrastructure. Given the complaints about Teksavvy cable on > their forum in dslreports.com, I'm perfectly happy with my ADSL service. > I'm on the 5 (soon to be 6) megabit 300 gigs/month for $31.95/month > plan. The unlimited version is $39.96/month. Tek also has higher speed > plans 12/1, 16/1, and 25/7 megabits, at higher prices. But these higher > speed plans are all limited to 300 gigs/month. See > http://teksavvy.com/en/res-internet.asp#adsl Yeah, there really is no excuse for using sympatico. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 15:38:42 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 10:38:42 -0500 Subject: Wireless for wired computers? In-Reply-To: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org> References: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C@acm.org> Message-ID: <20111206153842.GB9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 08:56:18AM -0500, Phillip Mills wrote: > We have two networks in the house. Upstairs, there's a wireless router, hooked to cable, with one wired computer and a number of wireless devices. The downstairs network -- much older -- connects through DSL and includes two computers that can't use wireless. The need for those two systems to access the net has become infrequent but still exists. > > I had the idea this morning that I could eliminate the DSL line, modem, and router if I had a box that combined a wireless client with a few wired ethernet ports. Essentially, it would connect to the upstairs wireless router (distance isn't a problem) and broker that connection to computers that used its physical ports. > > Does such a thing exist and, if so, what would I call it when I went shopping? A number of wireless routers can be configured as wireless bridges (which is what you want). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 15:46:26 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 10:46:26 -0500 Subject: Wireless for wired computers? In-Reply-To: References: <068EABED-B3A4-4AF6-876F-A2261096962C@acm.org> <4EDE3014.6000003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111206154626.GC9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 10:32:28AM -0500, Phillip Mills wrote: > Thanks to the various people who pointed me at wireless bridges. I'll think about that. > > On 2011-12-06, at 10:09 AM, Mike Kallies wrote: > > > They used to be more common > > It seems that any current, multi-port ones I can find are aimed at game boxes, video cameras, printers, media players, and such. I wonder if that's a limitation or a marketing strategy. http://canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_356&item_id=020575 http://canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_356&item_id=025598 -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 16:45:29 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 11:45:29 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:07 PM, Antonio Sun wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:20 AM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 10:30 PM, James Knott >> wrote: >> > An interesting bit of history. >> > >> > >> > http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix/1 > > > It definitely brings back the warmth memories when I was learning the Unix > system in the University, and the legendary stories about its genius > authors. > > - "The first edition of Unix let programmers call 34 different low-level > routines built into the operating system. It's a testament to the system's > enduring nature that nearly all of these system calls are still > available?and?still heavily used?on modern Unix and Linux systems four > decades on. " > - The "first-?edition Unix provided a remarkably powerful environment for > software development. Yet it contained just 4200 lines of code at its heart > and occupied a measly 16?KB of main memory when it ran." > > Anyone still remember what's the gross line count, including the comments? I > remember it was around 10,000, and I remember my prof quoting from the > author, something like, 10,000 lines of code, that's about the maximum one > can handle (memories each function and each line of code). > > Was it, or was it about the A Commentary on the Unix Operating System book > that we learned, or neither? > >> That was a great story. I was really interested in the idea of running >> the original Unix. That would be very cool, to run Unix 1.0 in some >> kind of emulator on my linux machine. Would that be possible? > > > Yep, as in the article, > > ..." a copy of the first edition of Unix [is] running on an emulated > PDP-11/20." > http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1 I guess I assumed someone would be thoughtful enough to figure out I was asking 'how', and maybe even 'what'. Sorry about that. > Thanks > > -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 17:25:53 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 12:25:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: Antonio Sun | http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1 I started to read the code and was puzzled by something I found in the first few lines: apparently redundant moves to lsh in It turns out that it won't run on a PDP-11/20 without the KE11A Extended Arithmentic Element, something I've never used. lsh is a register in that device that causes another register pair (called mq and ac) to shift. Without the EAE, the PDP-11/20 had only single bit shift instructions. The symbols are mentioned in the assembler manual but not their actual meaning. This is an interesting example of devices being addressed as if they were memory, a noteable feature of the PDP-11. Anyway, the moves were not redundant: each one caused a shift. The code has lots of comments. I think later kernel assembly code had a lot fewer. It would have been more interesting (and alien) to me to see the PDP-7 version of Unix that preceded this one. I've never written assembly language for the PDP-7, but I kind of know it. In some ways it is a stretched PDP-8, something I have used. Odd fact: the PDP-7 supported both one's complement and two's complement arithmetic. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:04:43 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 13:04:43 -0500 Subject: Cfengine webinar for the curious Message-ID: <20111206180443.GA22786@watson-wilson.ca> For those that are curious about Cfengine and Cfengine 3 they are hosting a webinar on the 14th. http://info.cfengine.com/CFEngine3NovaWebinar_Registration.html -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:15:52 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 13:15:52 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > This is an interesting example of devices being addressed as if they > were memory, a noteable feature of the PDP-11. Actually, most CPUs can use memory mapped I/O. DEC had the "feature" of not having any separate I/O instructions, which meant that I/O, not having it's own address space, occupied addresses that might otherwise be used for memory. I believe the Motorola mircroprocessors also did that. BTW, anyone else here remember the Data General I/O, where you could branch on busy & done flags? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 18:20:30 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 13:20:30 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: <4EDE5BD8.7090407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EDE5CEE.7060209@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > BTW, anyone else here remember the Data General I/O, where you could > branch on busy & done flags? Forgot to mention, that could be used for a singe instruction "buzy loop", where you'd sit at a single instruction while waiting for an I/O operation to complete. You'd do a "NO I/O instruction and jump back 1 continuously until the busy flag cleared or the done set. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 19:17:18 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 14:17:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: <4EDE5BD8.7090407-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > This is an interesting example of devices being addressed as if they | > were memory, a noteable feature of the PDP-11. | | Actually, most CPUs can use memory mapped I/O. Not before the PDP-11. My recollection is that it wasn't the first, but it made the idea popular. The PDP-11 was kind of like an Apple product: most computer architects were inspired by it and copied it. Even its mistakes. I'm talking about device registers, not buffers. | DEC had the "feature" of not | having any separate I/O instructions, which meant that I/O, not having it's | own address space, occupied addresses that might otherwise be used for memory. | I believe the Motorola mircroprocessors also did that. Yes. And of course the 6502 (an descendant of the 6800 architecture). | BTW, anyone else here remember the Data General I/O, where you could branch on | busy & done flags? I never used one. It was rumoured that Edson de Castro, the designer of the Nova, actually designed it as the PDP-11 but DEC cancelled it and he started DG to build it. It was definitely not as advanced as the PDP-11, more like a stretched PDP-8 (but different from the PDP-7/9/15 sequence). I think it is similar to the original ARM in a number of ways. The PDP-8 had no conditional branch instructions. Instead, its conditional instructions conditionally skipped the next word (instruction) in the instruction stream. This seems to be true of the Nova too. If so, how could you have a one instruction conditional loop? Perhaps you meant a loop with one instruction in the body. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 19:57:44 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 14:57:44 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? Message-ID: On 4 December 2011 13:56, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > * I used to use kdissert, a mind-mapping tool in KDE 3. It has since been > superseded by Semantik. Semantik seems nice, except when you attempt to > print the pretty diagram you just created to a PDF. It *only* prints what is > visible in the window's view port, not the whole document and there seems to > be no obvious way to do otherwise. That means I wasted a bunch of time doing > a mind map of a project I'm working on only to discover after I'd done that > there was no easy way to share what I'd done with other project > participants, all of whom use OS X. I had to fiddle with the diagram to get > it to fit within the view port but that's fragile because the next object I > added, it rearranged the diagram automatically. This pushes me some on-line > hosted application that I don't really trust, bubble.us, so I'm looking for > better alternatives. I've seen some Java-based cross-platform app but it has > the handicap of being Java-based, which I'm reluctant to install because > every time I install anything Java-based, it seems to be a pig and it always > seems to disappoint. (Case in point: Eclipse. I have a rant about it that > I'll have to save for another day.) Yet another, "Sigh..." I understand your discomfort with Java-based software, but have for several years been using FreeMind very happily despite it being Java-based. I think it's the only Java-based software I use at home (not so at work, where we use Eclipse). I've found FreeMind to be the most flexible of the several mind-mapping softwares I've tried, and two other reasons I settled on it were A) entirely cross-platform (behaves identically under Windows and Linux), and B) it stores its files in a non-proprietary format ... XML. And my respect for it was sealed when I fired up Thinking Space (mind-mapping software for Android, also highly recommended) and found that it uses the same file format and opens FreeMind files flawlessly. I don't think I've ever tried to print a mind map, but on several occasions I've used FreeMind's export-to-HTML, which has worked quite well. It builds a nicely structured page of indented lists - obviously a different appearance, but quite functional. You'll have to investigate that aspect of its behaviour yourself to see if it serves your purposes. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 20:14:50 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:14:50 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > I understand your discomfort with Java-based software, but have for > several years been using FreeMind very happily despite it being > Java-based. +1 from me on this... Note that on Debian (and probably Ubuntu), it's not particularly visible that it's a "Java thing." apt-get install freemind installs it. $ freemind runs it, and it's not in-your-face about being a Java thing. I think it's using the AWT widget set, and when you use the file manager, you can tell that it's consistent with other Java/GUI apps in that regard. But it's not notably bloated - when I propose removing it, apt-get tells me I'll save 3.6MB of space. With a moderately large diagram, it chews 4.1MB of memory, which isn't anything I'd complain about. There are clearly Java-based applications out there that cause people to have the intuition that "Java is big and bloated". I disagree with that intuition - what is pretty clear is that Java is the "Cobol of the 200x's", and, having been a "hot in-language," it has attracted a lot of incompetent developers that have built big, bloated, non-performant applications. Those apps wouldn't be any smaller or faster had they been written in some other language. (Not even Ada!) -- "If Ada became the hot, in-language you would see a lot more bad code in Ada." -- Thaddeus L. Olczyk , comp.lang.C++ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 20:24:07 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:24:07 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 02:57:44PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > I understand your discomfort with Java-based software, but have for > several years been using FreeMind very happily despite it being > Java-based. I think it's the only Java-based software I use at home > (not so at work, where we use Eclipse). I've found FreeMind to be the > most flexible of the several mind-mapping softwares I've tried, and > two other reasons I settled on it were A) entirely cross-platform > (behaves identically under Windows and Linux), and B) it stores its > files in a non-proprietary format ... XML. And my respect for it was > sealed when I fired up Thinking Space (mind-mapping software for > Android, also highly recommended) and found that it uses the same file > format and opens FreeMind files flawlessly. XML is no cure for proprietary formats. Sure you can see some of the structure of the file, but that doesn't mean you have a clue what the contents mean. > I don't think I've ever tried to print a mind map, but on several > occasions I've used FreeMind's export-to-HTML, which has worked quite > well. It builds a nicely structured page of indented lists - > obviously a different appearance, but quite functional. You'll have > to investigate that aspect of its behaviour yourself to see if it > serves your purposes. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 20:32:04 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 15:32:04 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: <20111206202407.GD9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDE7BC4.9080907@utoronto.ca> On 12/06/2011 03:24 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 02:57:44PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: >> I understand your discomfort with Java-based software, but have for >> several years been using FreeMind very happily despite it being >> Java-based. I think it's the only Java-based software I use at home >> (not so at work, where we use Eclipse). I've found FreeMind to be the >> most flexible of the several mind-mapping softwares I've tried, and >> two other reasons I settled on it were A) entirely cross-platform >> (behaves identically under Windows and Linux), and B) it stores its >> files in a non-proprietary format ... XML. And my respect for it was >> sealed when I fired up Thinking Space (mind-mapping software for >> Android, also highly recommended) and found that it uses the same file >> format and opens FreeMind files flawlessly. > > XML is no cure for proprietary formats. Sure you can see some of the > structure of the file, but that doesn't mean you have a clue what the > contents mean. In this case Freemind takes advantage of the extensibility of the format - it works very well across platforms and can be transformed into multiple outputs (pdf, svg, png, html). http://freemind.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Import_and_export Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 20:53:19 2011 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:53:19 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > I guess I assumed someone would be thoughtful enough to figure out I > was asking 'how', and maybe even 'what'. Sorry about that. I haven't tried this yet, but hope to once I get some free time: The instructions are Windows specific; I expect that using the provided ISO image with a copy of SIMH (computer history simulation project) for Linux would work as well. -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 21:02:48 2011 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 16:02:48 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> I guess I assumed someone would be thoughtful enough to figure out I >> was asking 'how', and maybe even 'what'. Sorry about that. > > I haven't tried this yet, but hope to once I get some free time: Just had another quick look. This might be a bit better: Apparently SIMH is prepackaged for Ubuntu & Fedora :-) -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 21:23:21 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 16:23:21 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | Actually, most CPUs can use memory mapped I/O. > > Not before the PDP-11. My recollection is that it wasn't the first, > but it made the idea popular. Other computers had separate I/O instructions and signals on the bus. Since the PDP-11 didn't have those, it had to use memory mapped I/O. However, you could generally use memory mapped I/O on any CPU. > | BTW, anyone else here remember the Data General I/O, where you could branch on > | busy& done flags? > > I never used one. > > It was rumoured that Edson de Castro, the designer of the Nova, > actually designed it as the PDP-11 but DEC cancelled it and he started > DG to build it. It was definitely not as advanced as the PDP-11, more > like a stretched PDP-8 (but different from the PDP-7/9/15 sequence). > > I think it is similar to the original ARM in a number of ways. > > The PDP-8 had no conditional branch instructions. Instead, its > conditional instructions conditionally skipped the next word > (instruction) in the instruction stream. This seems to be true of the > Nova too. I recall reading up on the PDP-8 instruction set. IIRC, self modifying code was recommended! This was to get around limitations of the instruction set. The Nova had conditional jump relative instructions. It also had skip instructions, where you could skip over an instructions. > If so, how could you have a one instruction conditional loop? > Perhaps you meant a loop with one instruction in the body. It's been *MANY* years since I've look at this, but you could do a "NO I/O" instruction, which would test the device status flags and then do a jump -1 on a specified status. The jump -1 would put you back to the instruction again, so you'd keep on executing that one instruction until the status bit changed. Here's a link to the Nova instruction set. http://users.rcn.com/crfriend/museum/doco/DG/Nova/base-instr.html IIRC, you'd do something like: NIO SKPDN JMP .-1 I guess it was 2 instructions, not one. With the above, if the "Done" flag was set, you'd skip over the next instruction and execute whatever followed. If it wasn't set, you'd jump back the NIO instruction and run it again. However, IIRC, you could do a JMP .0, which would loop on that single instruction. The "." made it a jump relative instruction. One interesting feature the Nova had was auto increment and decrement memory locations. If you did an indirect memory access, using the contents of those locations as the final address, the contents would increment (or decrement) so the next time you did that, you'd go to the next address. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 21:47:19 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 16:47:19 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: <20111206202407.GD9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 6 December 2011 15:24, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 02:57:44PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: >> I understand your discomfort with Java-based software, but have for >> several years been using FreeMind very happily despite it being >> Java-based. ?I think it's the only Java-based software I use at home >> (not so at work, where we use Eclipse). ?I've found FreeMind to be the >> most flexible of the several mind-mapping softwares I've tried, and >> two other reasons I settled on it were A) entirely cross-platform >> (behaves identically under Windows and Linux), and B) it stores its >> files in a non-proprietary format ... XML. ?And my respect for it was >> sealed when I fired up Thinking Space (mind-mapping software for >> Android, also highly recommended) and found that it uses the same file >> format and opens FreeMind files flawlessly. > > XML is no cure for proprietary formats. ?Sure you can see some of the > structure of the file, but that doesn't mean you have a clue what the > contents mean. Yes, it's possible - even likely - that people will create XML formats that aren't useful in any other application. But it's still structured and readable. And in the very worst instance (Freemind is abandoned, can no longer be compiled on future versions of Linux, and no other application can read their ".mm" files), the data can still be readily examined with less, or parsed and converted with a Bash script because it's a mark-up language - it's TEXT. I understand your argument, but I consider this a significant advantage over proprietary binary formats. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 22:48:45 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 17:48:45 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: References: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > On 6 December 2011 15:24, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 02:57:44PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: >>> I understand your discomfort with Java-based software, but have for >>> several years been using FreeMind very happily despite it being >>> Java-based. ?I think it's the only Java-based software I use at home >>> (not so at work, where we use Eclipse). ?I've found FreeMind to be the >>> most flexible of the several mind-mapping softwares I've tried, and >>> two other reasons I settled on it were A) entirely cross-platform >>> (behaves identically under Windows and Linux), and B) it stores its >>> files in a non-proprietary format ... XML. ?And my respect for it was >>> sealed when I fired up Thinking Space (mind-mapping software for >>> Android, also highly recommended) and found that it uses the same file >>> format and opens FreeMind files flawlessly. >> >> XML is no cure for proprietary formats. ?Sure you can see some of the >> structure of the file, but that doesn't mean you have a clue what the >> contents mean. > > Yes, it's possible - even likely - that people will create XML formats > that aren't useful in any other application. ?But it's still > structured and readable. ?And in the very worst instance (Freemind is > abandoned, can no longer be compiled on future versions of Linux, and > no other application can read their ".mm" files), the data can still > be readily examined with less, or parsed and converted with a Bash > script because it's a mark-up language - it's TEXT. ?I understand your > argument, but I consider this a significant advantage over proprietary > binary formats. Furthermore, there are an appreciable number of applications that have been written which are known to read and write Freemind-compatible documents. http://freemind.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Accessories http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FreeMind Most entertaining is an Emacs Lisp mode for converting between OrgMode and Freemind. Sure, there are "bad players" out there that use "New! Improved! Now with XML!!!" (but with binary blobs of crap encoded inside them) to abuse imagination of portability. But *THE XML FORMAT USED BY FREEMIND* is one that is reasonably readable and writable, and FUD thrown against XML can be as bad a thing as FUD thrown in favor of it. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 22:50:06 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 17:50:06 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: References: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111206225006.GE9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 04:47:19PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > Yes, it's possible - even likely - that people will create XML formats > that aren't useful in any other application. But it's still > structured and readable. And in the very worst instance (Freemind is > abandoned, can no longer be compiled on future versions of Linux, and > no other application can read their ".mm" files), the data can still > be readily examined with less, or parsed and converted with a Bash > script because it's a mark-up language - it's TEXT. I understand your > argument, but I consider this a significant advantage over proprietary > binary formats. Many xml formats have binary data chunks inside the tags. So no xml doesn't gain you that much. In many cases xml is better than a purely binary format, but not in all cases. xml does not mean open, never mind what Microsoft and such would like to make people believe. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 22:51:08 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 17:51:08 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: References: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111206225108.GF9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 05:48:45PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > Furthermore, there are an appreciable number of applications that have > been written which are known to read and write Freemind-compatible > documents. > > http://freemind.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Accessories > http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FreeMind > > Most entertaining is an Emacs Lisp mode for converting between OrgMode > and Freemind. > > Sure, there are "bad players" out there that use "New! Improved! Now > with XML!!!" (but with binary blobs of crap encoded inside them) to > abuse imagination of portability. > > But *THE XML FORMAT USED BY FREEMIND* is one that is reasonably > readable and writable, and FUD thrown against XML can be as bad a > thing as FUD thrown in favor of it. I didn't mean freemind has a proprietary format as such. I just said xml does not mean open. It's a wrong assumption to make. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 23:02:09 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 18:02:09 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: <20111206225108.GF9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111206225108.GF9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I didn't mean freemind has a proprietary format as such. ?I just said > xml does not mean open. ?It's a wrong assumption to make. XML doesn't mean closed. That's also a wrong assumption to make. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 23:16:34 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 18:16:34 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: References: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111206225108.GF9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111206231634.GG9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 06:02:09PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > XML doesn't mean closed. That's also a wrong assumption to make. It is just a format. I just disagree with the original implication that because freemind uses xml it is automatically an open format. That's the wrong implication. If freemind has a documented easy to read format, then that is why it is open. It could be in lots of formats and still be nice and open. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 6 23:29:05 2011 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 18:29:05 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: <20111206231634.GG9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111206225108.GF9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111206231634.GG9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > It is just a format. > > I just disagree with the original implication that because freemind uses > xml it is automatically an open format. That's the wrong implication. > If freemind has a documented easy to read format, then that is why it > is open. It could be in lots of formats and still be nice and open. > Absolutely, there are plenty of XML-hosted formats that are only machine readable and as opaque as any proprietary binary format. Freemind apparently has a very nice file format for mind maps, because it seems to have become a de facto interchange format for a bunch of mind mapping programs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 01:14:23 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 20:14:23 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: References: <20111206202407.GD9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111206225108.GF9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111206231634.GG9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDEBDEF.4070604@dinamis.com> On 12/06/2011 06:29 PM, Andrej Marjan wrote: > On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Lennart Sorensen > > wrote: > > It is just a format. > > I just disagree with the original implication that because freemind uses > xml it is automatically an open format. That's the wrong implication. > If freemind has a documented easy to read format, then that is why it > is open. It could be in lots of formats and still be nice and open. > > > Absolutely, there are plenty of XML-hosted formats that are only machine > readable and as opaque as any proprietary binary format. ... such as: Lotus Notes forms output to XML. I found out that XML is not meant to be read by other applications. It's meant to be imported by other Lotus Notes instances that know how to make sense of the binary stuff stored in the XML. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 04:05:13 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 23:05:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: <4EDE87C9.8090301-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > | Actually, most CPUs can use memory mapped I/O. | > | > Not before the PDP-11. My recollection is that it wasn't the first, | > but it made the idea popular. | | Other computers had separate I/O instructions and signals on the bus. Generally separate busses even. | Since | the PDP-11 didn't have those, it had to use memory mapped I/O. However, you | could generally use memory mapped I/O on any CPU. You are right, but I have a different picture. Most computers before the PDP-11 had a set of instructions for dealing with memory and a disjoint set of instructions for dealing with I/O. Examples include the PDP-7, PDP-8, and Nova. The PDP-11 elegantly unified those sets and had one bus: the Unibus(TM). "Less is more." There are costs to this design. The bus has to work for the slowest peripheral AND the fastest RAM. The bus has to support a lot of fan-out/fan-in. The semantics of reading or writing memory is somewhat different from the semantics of reading or writing a device register. Precious chunks of address space are lost (but a notional instruction bit is gained). On systems with separate I/O an memory busses, I/O device registers were almost always on the I/O bus. Some devices could also do DMA transfers to RAM, but only of buffers, not registers. | I recall reading up on the PDP-8 instruction set. IIRC, self modifying code | was recommended! This was to get around limitations of the instruction set. Subroutine call was "JSR dest". It stored the return address at the destination word and transferred control to the word after that. Certainly not re-entrant. It was easy to modify instructions themselves, but not usually necessary: every memory reference could be indirect (one level). I think that the Nova's rep of pointer had a spare bit that was used to indicate "one more level of indirection" so I presume that you could even have an infinite indirect addressing loop within a single instruction. I/O instructions didn't have indirection. So if you wanted the same code to handle multiple devices, you had to build the instruction dynamically, probably as self-modifying code (in other words, probably within the instruction stream). That's a case where unifying the two address spaces is a win. Then the rich addressing facilities would work for selecting I/O registers too. The PDP-11 had a stack, recognized in hardware, and certainly in the description of the hardware. It was one of the first to have that (certainly Burroughs machines had stacks about a decade earlier). The PDP-7, PDP-8, and the Nova did not. The Nova architecture was later extended to have a stack (infered from the page you mentioned ). | The Nova had conditional jump relative instructions. It also had skip | instructions, where you could skip over an instructions. I don't think that the original Nova hardware had conditional relative jumps. The assembler might have synthesized one out of two machine instructions (conditional skip over relative jump). See again | > If so, how could you have a one instruction conditional loop? | > Perhaps you meant a loop with one instruction in the body. | | It's been *MANY* years since I've look at this, but you could do a "NO I/O" | instruction, which would test the device status flags and then do a jump -1 on | a specified status. The jump -1 would put you back to the instruction again, | so you'd keep on executing that one instruction until the status bit changed. | | Here's a link to the Nova instruction set. | http://users.rcn.com/crfriend/museum/doco/DG/Nova/base-instr.html Yes, that's nice. It shows the layout of machine language instructions. | IIRC, you'd do something like: | | NIO SKPDN | JMP .-1 | | I guess it was 2 instructions, not one. With the above, if the "Done" flag | was set, you'd skip over the next instruction and execute whatever followed. | If it wasn't set, you'd jump back the NIO instruction and run it again. | However, IIRC, you could do a JMP .0, which would loop on that single | instruction. The "." made it a jump relative instruction. All non-indexed, non-page-zero jump instructions were relative. Assembly notation might disguise this. The "." means current location in DG and DEC assemblers. Assemblers generally allow fairly complex assembly-time expressions in operands. loop: jmp loop and jmp . both would generate the same relative jumps (unless, perhaps, we are currently on Page 0). | One interesting feature the Nova had was auto increment and decrement memory | locations. If you did an indirect memory access, using the contents of those | locations as the final address, the contents would increment (or decrement) so | the next time you did that, you'd go to the next address. The PDP-8 had a simpler form. Locations 0010 through 0017 were "auto indexing": when you indirected through them, they incremented. The Nova's instruction set was quite a nice upgrade to the PDP-8's: - 16 bit words instead of 12 bit. Lots of variables fit in 16 but not 12. - 15 bit addresses instead of 12. Too bad it wasn't 16. I've programmed in assembler on machines that had unbounded indirection but it isn't as valuable as an extra address bit :-) - 4 accumulators instead of 1 - indexed addressing - JSR stuffs return address into AC3, not first word of subroutine - ALC instructions are quite a bit richer than PDP-8's equivallent. The way of combining a whole bunch of operations into one instruction is like the PDP-8's OPR instsrcution, and like horizontal microcode. I was proud to have coded a word in a PDP-8 program that was simultaneously a) an instruction to clear the accumulator b) the address to indirect through when exiting the program (i.e. the OS entry point) c) a constant for the negate of the length of a buffer for a loop. I would not code like that now. But programs then had to fit in less than 4k words of 12 bits. The PDP-11 was considered way more elegant in its day. But with RISC glasses on, the Nova wins in some ways. The PDP-8 line's instruction set didn't evolve much. The PDP-11's and Nova's did. The PDP-8 CPU was reimplemented in a single chip quite early and probably could have killed off the 8080 if DEC hadn't been scared that it would have killed off their mini business . Most 16-bit and 32-bit micros followed the path of the PDP-11 but "ought" to have been wiped out by the 32-bit and 64-bit RISC machines which are closer to the Nova. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 04:28:59 2011 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 23:28:59 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> Message-ID: <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> To mention an example of what the PDP-8 was capable of: Back in the early 70's Durham College had a PDP-8S, which used a serial ALU (arithmetic-logic unit), ie, one bit processed at a time. (I think the register transfers were all serial as well. In those days, hardware was *expensive*.) They had a 64K hard drive attached to the computer. The drive was enormous - it just barely fit into a 19 inch rack and sounded like a washing machine on spin cycle. This computing facility ran a timesharing computing service of 4 ASR-33 teletypes, supporting the FOCAL programming language, which was an interpreted language something like BASIC. It was pretty slow when you got four people on the terminals and man, there was a lot of activity in the carry-bit indicator. But it did work. Of course, time-sharing is fairly trivial using an interpreted language, but it was still pretty impressive in the day. Personally, I found programming in PDP-8 assembler a huge chore and never got the hang of it. The 6502 instruction set was a gift from god by comparison. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 05:31:49 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 00:31:49 -0500 Subject: Mind mapping software, was Re: Is KDE 4 Stable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EDEFA45.4040706@dinamis.com> On 12/06/2011 02:57 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > I understand your discomfort with Java-based software, but have for > several years been using FreeMind very happily despite it being > Java-based. I think it's the only Java-based software I use at home > (not so at work, where we use Eclipse). I've found FreeMind to be the > most flexible of the several mind-mapping softwares I've tried, and > two other reasons I settled on it were A) entirely cross-platform > (behaves identically under Windows and Linux), and B) it stores its > files in a non-proprietary format ... XML. And my respect for it was > sealed when I fired up Thinking Space (mind-mapping software for > Android, also highly recommended) and found that it uses the same file > format and opens FreeMind files flawlessly. Thank you, Giles. Thanks to the issue with Thunderbird where I don't see unread messages in the TLUG folder until I actually remember to click on it, I didn't notice any messages sent to the list since the weekend. On the weekend, I had installed Freemind and decided to re-create the mind maps that I had previously created in Semantik because FM couldn't read Semantik's file format. It worked quite well and you're right, it is a usable Java application. Other than the characteristically Java UI, I couldn't tell it's written in Java. I installed a Trac plug-in so that I could display the FM-created mind maps on a Trac wiki page. It uses a Flash player to render the mind maps. There are a few things that disappeared along the way, like the styling of hyperlinks in the text within bubbles, but by and large, it works fine. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 05:41:49 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 00:41:49 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <20111206045908.GC3418-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <-5948175372233689013@unknownmsgid> <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> <4EDC0C41.5090500@dinamis.com> <20111206045908.GC3418@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4EDEFC9D.4070407@dinamis.com> On 12/05/2011 11:59 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 07:11:45PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote > >> I've been patiently waiting for TekSavvy to get their act together in my >> neighbourhood since late August so I've been using Sympatico as a >> stopgap measure since early September. Sympatico has to be the worst ISP >> I've ever used. I have outages multiple times a day ranging from 30 >> seconds to a few minutes. I've been keeping an eye on the TekSavvy blog >> to understand why they still have a "stop >> sell" order in my area. > > If you can use Sympatico DSL, why can't you use Teksavvy DSL? It's > the same infrastructure. That's what I'm afraid of. Today, I was using Skype. I got a call on my land line that I chose to ignore so that I could continue my conversation on Skype. That plan was thwarted when my Internet connection dropped while the phone was ringing only to resume about 30 seconds after it stopped ringing. > Given the complaints about Teksavvy cable on > their forum in dslreports.com, I'm perfectly happy with my ADSL service. > I'm on the 5 (soon to be 6) megabit 300 gigs/month for $31.95/month > plan. The unlimited version is $39.96/month. Tek also has higher speed > plans 12/1, 16/1, and 25/7 megabits, at higher prices. But these higher > speed plans are all limited to 300 gigs/month. See > http://teksavvy.com/en/res-internet.asp#adsl Another issue is that I can't get anything faster than the 5M service here. It is noticeably slower than what I used to have with Rogers. Anything faster requires Bell to install fiber optic cable to a "remote" and there is no install date for that. If that were an option, I might be more inclined to iron the problems with the line but it isn't so I'm not. I tried to entice Bell by pretending to be interested in Fibe TV, which I'm not, but that wasn't enough for them to care. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 05:47:05 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 00:47:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: | From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org | They had a 64K hard drive attached to the computer. The | drive was enormous - it just barely fit into a 19 inch rack and sounded | like a washing machine on spin cycle. Really? My recollection was that they were fixed-head disks, hence the low capacity. They should have been quiet. I don't know -- I used one in a noisy room. In the picture, it looks to be about a foot high. About the same heigth as a PDP-8s, I would guess. I used a PDP-8/S (with only an ASR-33 for IO) and a PDP-8/I (with said drive) in 1968/69. There was a noticeable speed difference. But the disk was way better than the ASR-33. It was lucky that big programs would not fit on the machine. I still have some paper tapes for them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 12:14:39 2011 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 07:14:39 -0500 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: <4EDE87C9.8090301-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 6 December 2011 16:23, James Knott wrote: > Other computers had separate I/O instructions and signals on the bus. ?Since > the PDP-11 didn't have those, it had to use memory mapped I/O. ?However, you > could generally use memory mapped I/O on any CPU. True; unless there are timing or caching problems, memory mapped I/O just appears as regular memory to a CPU. When I designed an I/O board for my 8080 based system (back around 1978) I made all the I/O registers both I/O and memory mapped at the same time. In some cases, you could write more efficient assembler if you could choose between using a memory or I/O instruction to access a register. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 12:55:13 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 14:55:13 +0200 Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Scott Allen wrote: > On 6 December 2011 16:23, James Knott wrote: > > Other computers had separate I/O instructions and signals on the bus. > Since > > the PDP-11 didn't have those, it had to use memory mapped I/O. However, > you > > could generally use memory mapped I/O on any CPU. > > True; unless there are timing or caching problems, memory mapped I/O > just appears as regular memory to a CPU. > > When I designed an I/O board for my 8080 based system (back around > 1978) I made all the I/O registers both I/O and memory mapped at the > same time. In some cases, you could write more efficient assembler if > you could choose between using a memory or I/O instruction to access a > register. > I think the AVR processor from ATMEL can see the I/O as memory space but can still access it with special instructions. -- Ori Idan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 13:08:30 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (R. Russell Reiter) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 08:08:30 -0500 Subject: Udev - reordering glitchy hardware Message-ID: <39aa5575-bc2b-43f7-b1d7-714a1edeb274@email.android.com> I thought I'd follow up on a previous series of posts regarding some udev inconsistancies. Ie. udev renaming devices. Part of the problem was the usb hub. Beware cheap hardware. In this case, helping my friend with some troubleshooting, he would plug and unplug while I monitored the events. It wasn't till I noticed that one of the four dongles on the hub was installed upsidedown that we got the reordering jumps under control. I mean when there are only six devices plugged in, its hard to figure why something would show up on the bus as device /042 with nothing in between it and the one showing up as 005. When the device was plugged into the inverted dongle it would not register. When it did register in one of the other dongles I'm assuming a possible electrical short, either in that inverted connection or one of the others that was sending spikes which were being counted as polled devices. Also I did as Lennart suggested and removed the K scripts from runlevel 2-5. Although I had renamed 2-3 to K, the scripts were present in the other folders. I don't know why they wound up there. I blew everthing but home away and reinstalled from source and ran update. No reappearence of the S scripts as of yet and both keyboards and mice and MFU are performing nicely. I'm sensing an impending shift in the kernel vis a vie code morphing or some other feature, perhaps someone was jumping the gun. Or testing a potential exploit, who can say. -- R. Russell Reiter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 13:09:38 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 08:09:38 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4EDF6592.8090908@rogers.com> phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > To mention an example of what the PDP-8 was capable of: Back in the early > 70's Durham College had a PDP-8S, which used a serial ALU > (arithmetic-logic unit), ie, one bit processed at a time. (I think the > register transfers were all serial as well. In those days, hardware was > *expensive*.) They had a 64K hard drive attached to the computer. The > drive was enormous - it just barely fit into a 19 inch rack and sounded > like a washing machine on spin cycle. > > This computing facility ran a timesharing computing service of 4 ASR-33 > teletypes, supporting the FOCAL programming language, which was an > interpreted language something like BASIC. It was pretty slow when you got > four people on the terminals and man, there was a lot of activity in the > carry-bit indicator. But it did work. > > Of course, time-sharing is fairly trivial using an interpreted language, > but it was still pretty impressive in the day. At work, we had one PDP-8i and also several Nova 800s across the country. I don't recall the disk size on the PDP-8 (16K?), but it was much smaller than the Novas which had either 128 or 256K. They both used head per track disks. Both systems were connected to several terminals used to enter telegrams at CN Telecommunications/CNCP. > > Personally, I found programming in PDP-8 assembler a huge chore and never > got the hang of it. The 6502 instruction set was a gift from god by > comparison. > > Other than a FORTRAN class in high school, my first programming experience was on the Datapoint 2200 terminal, which used the 8008 instruction set. The Intel 8008 was originally intended for that terminal, but it wasn't fast enough, so Datapoint went with discrete logic to build their CPU. About a year later, I bought my IMSAI 8080, which had the 8080 CPU, which was much better than the 8008. Another year later, I was working with the Nova 800 and found it's instruction set to be primitive compared to the 8080. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 14:56:06 2011 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 09:56:06 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On 6 December 2011 23:28, wrote: > Personally, I found programming in PDP-8 assembler a huge chore and never > got the hang of it. The 6502 instruction set was a gift from god by > comparison. The company I started working for, back in the late '70's was founded by a few people who used to work at IBM. The head technical guy was used to working on IBM System/360 class machines, but we were developing products based on the 8080 CPU. The 8080 based product was also suitable as a development machine. Rather than create a development environment using 8080 code, he wrote a System/360 instruction set emulator for the 8080 and then proceeded to write an editor, 360 assembler, job control language, etc. in 360 assembly code. So we had an emulated System/360 running on an 8080 microcomputer. Products that we sold that used an 8080 (or later Z80) CPU also ran this emulator and much of the application code was written in Sys/360 assembler. Some parts of the 8080 product applications ran native 8080 code, which was created using an 8080 cross assembler written in Sys/360 assembly code. So we had an 8080 system emulating a Sys/360 which ran a cross assembler to generate 8080 code. My experience was similar to Peter's: I preferred working with 8080 assembler over Sys/360 assembler. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 15:57:53 2011 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 10:57:53 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder Message-ID: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel@nray.ca> Hello all, I'm stumped with what should be a simple issue. I have a folder that due to a coding error ended up with 280,000 files in it. A total of about 3GB of junk. I tried to delete it using #rm -rf foldername but it produces this error: CIFS VFS: No response for cmd 50 mid 14xxx A google search suggested turning off the Opportunistic Locking with #echo 0 > /proc/fs/cifs/OplockEnabled and then re-running the rm command from above But that didn't help either. Any suggestions? Thanks, Stephen ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 15:59:42 2011 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:59:42 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <4EDF8D6E.3050102@gmail.com> does it let you delete one file even? -tl On 12/07/2011 10:57 AM, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm stumped with what should be a simple issue. > > I have a folder that due to a coding error ended up with 280,000 files in > it. A total of about 3GB of junk. > > I tried to delete it using > > #rm -rf foldername > > but it produces this error: > > CIFS VFS: No response for cmd 50 mid 14xxx > > A google search suggested turning off the Opportunistic Locking with > > #echo 0> /proc/fs/cifs/OplockEnabled > > and then re-running the rm command from above > > But that didn't help either. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > Stephen > > ____________________ > Stephen W. Clarke > Marketing and Communications Officer > Nray Services Inc. > 56A Head Street > Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 > CANADA > > (905) 627-1302 x14 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:05:09 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:05:09 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <20111207160509.GH9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 10:57:53AM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm stumped with what should be a simple issue. > > I have a folder that due to a coding error ended up with 280,000 files in > it. A total of about 3GB of junk. > > I tried to delete it using > > #rm -rf foldername > > but it produces this error: > > CIFS VFS: No response for cmd 50 mid 14xxx > > A google search suggested turning off the Opportunistic Locking with > > #echo 0 > /proc/fs/cifs/OplockEnabled > > and then re-running the rm command from above > > But that didn't help either. > > Any suggestions? find foldername -print0 | xargs -0 -n 100 rm Basicly, delete 100 things at a time. It should tolerate that, shouldn't it? Is this a local drive, or a network mount? The error makes me suspect it is a windows drive remotely mounted. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:07:17 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:07:17 -0500 Subject: Is KDE 4 Stable? (was Re:Linus on Gnome 3.2) In-Reply-To: <4EDEFC9D.4070407-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111202181236.GH6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ED91689.6000009@gmail.com> <20111202200008.GI6035@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDBC270.50009@dinamis.com> <4EDBCF54.8040907@gmail.com> <4EDBDE83.9080700@dinamis.com> <4EDC0C41.5090500@dinamis.com> <20111206045908.GC3418@waltdnes.org> <4EDEFC9D.4070407@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20111207160717.GI9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 12:41:49AM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > That's what I'm afraid of. Today, I was using Skype. I got a call on > my land line that I chose to ignore so that I could continue my > conversation on Skype. That plan was thwarted when my Internet > connection dropped while the phone was ringing only to resume about > 30 seconds after it stopped ringing. That ususally indicates a failure to correcly place DSL filters on every phone in the house. DSL requires those. And if one is defective, it breaks it too. > Another issue is that I can't get anything faster than the 5M > service here. It is noticeably slower than what I used to have with > Rogers. Anything faster requires Bell to install fiber optic cable > to a "remote" and there is no install date for that. If that were an > option, I might be more inclined to iron the problems with the line > but it isn't so I'm not. I tried to entice Bell by pretending to be > interested in Fibe TV, which I'm not, but that wasn't enough for > them to care. They just started offering their fibe TV in my area. Not interested. Go away Bell. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:08:35 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:08:35 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <4EDF8F83.6060104@rogers.com> Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > Any suggestions? Are there a lot of subdirectories? Try just deleting the top level files first, without using recursion and see what happens. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:11:14 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:11:14 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <20111207160509.GH9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel@nray.ca> <20111207160509.GH9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDF9022.1090802@utoronto.ca> On 12/07/2011 11:05 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 10:57:53AM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> I'm stumped with what should be a simple issue. >> >> I have a folder that due to a coding error ended up with 280,000 files in >> it. A total of about 3GB of junk. >> >> I tried to delete it using >> >> #rm -rf foldername >> >> but it produces this error: >> >> CIFS VFS: No response for cmd 50 mid 14xxx >> >> A google search suggested turning off the Opportunistic Locking with >> >> #echo 0 > /proc/fs/cifs/OplockEnabled >> >> and then re-running the rm command from above >> >> But that didn't help either. >> >> Any suggestions? > > find foldername -print0 | xargs -0 -n 100 rm > > Basicly, delete 100 things at a time. It should tolerate that, > shouldn't it? > > Is this a local drive, or a network mount? The error makes me suspect > it is a windows drive remotely mounted. xargs isn't the best way to delete things. find has the -delete option for this, which avoids forking processes, and is portable across *NIX versions of the tool, whereas xargs is apparently not: http://www.gnu.org/software/findutils/manual/html_node/find_html/Deleting-Files.html Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:24:05 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:24:05 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4EDF9325.5070907@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I still have some paper tapes for them. Anyone recall using the PDP-8 RIM loader? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:26:49 2011 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:26:49 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder Message-ID: Thanks for the quick response!! Ted: > does it let you delete one file even? Not sure as the directory is so big I can't get it to list the file names. Len: >find foldername -print0 | xargs -0 -n 100 rm >Basicly, delete 100 things at a time. It should tolerate that, >shouldn't it? >Is this a local drive, or a network mount? The error makes me suspect it is a windows drive remotely mounted. I'll give that a try next. I just decided to abandon the command prompt and try to do this with the Gnome file manager (Nautilus?) It appears to be working. The folder is on a NAS unit so yes it is a mount. James: >Are there a lot of subdirectories? Try just deleting the top level files first, without using recursion and see what happens. There are no subdirectories. Jamon: >xargs isn't the best way to delete things. find has the -delete option >for this, which avoids forking processes, and is portable across *NIX >versions of the tool, whereas xargs is apparently not: > >http://www.gnu.org/software/findutils/manual/html_node/find_html/Deleting-Files.html Thanks I'll give that a read. Doing the delete from the GUI seems to be working. Thanks again for all your suggestions. Stephen > On 12/07/2011 11:05 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 10:57:53AM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: >>> Hello all, >>> I'm stumped with what should be a simple issue. >>> I have a folder that due to a coding error ended up with 280,000 files in >>> it. A total of about 3GB of junk. >>> I tried to delete it using >>> #rm -rf foldername >>> but it produces this error: >>> CIFS VFS: No response for cmd 50 mid 14xxx >>> A google search suggested turning off the Opportunistic Locking with #echo 0 > /proc/fs/cifs/OplockEnabled >>> and then re-running the rm command from above >>> But that didn't help either. >>> Any suggestions? >> find foldername -print0 | xargs -0 -n 100 rm >> Basicly, delete 100 things at a time. It should tolerate that, shouldn't it? >> Is this a local drive, or a network mount? The error makes me suspect it is a windows drive remotely mounted. > > xargs isn't the best way to delete things. find has the -delete option for this, which avoids forking processes, and is portable across *NIX versions of the tool, whereas xargs is apparently not: > > http://www.gnu.org/software/findutils/manual/html_node/find_html/Deleting-Files.html > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:37:02 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:37:02 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <4EDF9022.1090802-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel@nray.ca> <20111207160509.GH9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDF9022.1090802@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20111207163702.GJ9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:11:14AM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > xargs isn't the best way to delete things. find has the -delete option > for this, which avoids forking processes, and is portable across *NIX > versions of the tool, whereas xargs is apparently not: > > http://www.gnu.org/software/findutils/manual/html_node/find_html/Deleting-Files.html posix find does NOT have a -delete option, so it is clearly NOT portable. find foldername -exec rm {} \; That is portable. But calls rm a lot more times, hence the xargs. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:37:45 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:37:45 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <20111207163702.GJ9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <5913a3dcba4db284e2a4cc7ea7a1284a.squirrel@nray.ca> <20111207160509.GH9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDF9022.1090802@utoronto.ca> <20111207163702.GJ9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111207163745.GK9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:37:02AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > posix find does NOT have a -delete option, so it is clearly NOT portable. > > find foldername -exec rm {} \; > > That is portable. But calls rm a lot more times, hence the xargs. The -print0 is unfortunately NOT portable. Usually isn't needed either though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:38:43 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:38:43 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111207163843.GL9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:26:49AM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > Thanks for the quick response!! > > Ted: > > does it let you delete one file even? > Not sure as the directory is so big I can't get it to list the file names. ls by default sorts. If you asked it not to sort it would probably work. find doesn't sort, and hence has no such issue. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:38:43 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:38:43 -0500 Subject: Monitor issue - Samsung SyncMaster P2770 Message-ID: Morning, Just curious, any one here use the above monitor? I have tried to google for its user manual without lack and I am getting irritated by a "feature" where it keep cycling through all its source. I have not found a way to configure it manually to remain on "digital source" A bit about the monitor, it has analogue, digital and HDMI interface. HDMI is useless as the laptop does not have HDMI input and converter result to a down graded display. So I was forced to use DVI. After that, the monitor go blank when the circuit decided to automatically scan through all the inputs. I have not found a way of disabling this annoying feature. Anyone here know what to do from the top of their head? Seem nothing out there have a decent manual any more Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:46:29 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:46:29 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EDF9865.8060101@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > There are costs to this design. The bus has to work for the slowest > peripheral AND the fastest RAM. The bus has to support a lot of > fan-out/fan-in. The semantics of reading or writing memory is somewhat > different from the semantics of reading or writing a device register. > Precious chunks of address space are lost (but a notional instruction bit > is gained). I worked on a variety of systems. IIRC, they all used the same bus for I/O and memory. Also, back in those days, core memory was used, which was slower than I/O registers. > I/O instructions didn't have indirection. So if you wanted the same > code to handle multiple devices, you had to build the instruction > dynamically, probably as self-modifying code (in other words, probably > within the instruction stream). Actually, in a lot of hardware, such as serial ports, where you'd have multiple lines etc., there was a register to select which line you wanted to access and then the same I/O address was used as for all other lines. The Data General line had only 64 device codes (I/O addresses). Yet, you could run multiple disk & tape drives and hundreds of serial ports, with the serial ports spread over multiple boards. With disk drives, the device code was 20 for the primary controller and 60 for the secondary. You could then select one of the drives attached to that controller. Mag tape was 22 & 62 IIRC, again you could select one of up to eight drives. Same again with disk pack drives (30 & 70?) etc. If all that wasn't enough, you could add up to 4 Data Channel Adapters, each of which was a chassis that included a single board Nova, for controlling all the I/O in that chassis. On the other hand, DEC used the "Unibus", which daisy chained through all the chassis, controllers, memory boards etc. Finding a fault somewhere on that Unibus could be "interesting". I worked on some Data General Eclipse systems that had multiple drives, a DCA and a few hundred serial ports. > The PDP-11 had a stack, recognized in hardware, and certainly in the > description of the hardware. It was one of the first to have that > (certainly Burroughs machines had stacks about a decade earlier). > > The PDP-7, PDP-8, and the Nova did not. The Nova architecture was > later extended to have a stack (infered from the page you mentioned > ). As you say, the Nova didn't have a stack, but the Eclipse did. > | I guess it was 2 instructions, not one. With the above, if the "Done" flag > | was set, you'd skip over the next instruction and execute whatever followed. > | If it wasn't set, you'd jump back the NIO instruction and run it again. > | However, IIRC, you could do a JMP .0, which would loop on that single > | instruction. The "." made it a jump relative instruction. > > All non-indexed, non-page-zero jump instructions were relative. > Assembly notation might disguise this. > > The "." means current location in DG and DEC assemblers. Assemblers > generally allow fairly complex assembly-time expressions in operands. I think we're saying the same thing. The . means relative to the current location i.e. -1 the previous location. The I/O flag status tests resulted in either a .2 or .1, to skip or not depending on status. > The PDP-8 CPU was reimplemented in a single chip quite > early and probably could have killed off the 8080 if DEC hadn't been > scared that it would have killed off their mini business > . There were also microprocessor versions of the PDP-11 and Nova. The LSI-11 was used in some Heathkit computers and also the boot loader (loaded the microcode into the CPU) of the VAX 11/780 systems. The Nova CPU was used in the DCAs mentioned above. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 16:53:17 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:53:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: <4EDF9325.5070907-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4EDF9325.5070907@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | > I still have some paper tapes for them. | | Anyone recall using the PDP-8 RIM loader? Yes. You had to enter it using the switches. It was just used to read in the BIN loader tape. The actual code was silk-screened on the console. Roughly 16 instructions. To key each in, you had to set the 12 data switches and then press "deposit". Self-modifying to cut down on the size. Since memory was core (magnetized doughnuts), it was non-volatile. Most of the time the BIN loader stayed intact, even across power cycles. The Altair was similar. In fact, I'm sure it's system design was inspired by minis like the PDP-8. But its ram was volatile. I'm sure glad mine had an add-on board that held EPROM (it could read and program 2708s). The original Altair kit had only 256 bytes of memory. You had to buy expansion kits for more. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 17:22:56 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:22:56 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4EDF9325.5070907@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EDFA0F0.9030706@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | Anyone recall using the PDP-8 RIM loader? > > Yes. You had to enter it using the switches. It was just used to > read in the BIN loader tape. I used it to boot from disk. The Nova had an optional boot loader ROM. If that was installed, you just had to enter the device code into the switches and hit boot. > Since memory was core (magnetized doughnuts), it was non-volatile. > Most of the time the BIN loader stayed intact, even across power > cycles. Entire programs stayed intact. I could power down a computer, turn it on again and restart the app from memory. > The Altair was similar. In fact, I'm sure it's system design was > inspired by minis like the PDP-8. But its ram was volatile. I'm sure > glad mine had an add-on board that held EPROM (it could read and > program 2708s). > > The original Altair kit had only 256 bytes of memory. You had to buy > expansion kits for more. My IMSAI came with no memory, so I bought a 16K board, initially loaded with 4K. I also had a multi I/O board from Morrow's Micro Stuff, that could load a 256 byte block of data from a cassette tape and then run it. Later on, I got an EPROM board that used 2716s. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 17:25:19 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:25:19 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: <4EDFA0F0.9030706-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4EDF9325.5070907@rogers.com> <4EDFA0F0.9030706@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EDFA17F.1030408@rogers.com> James Knott wrote: > and hit boot. Sorry, that should be "Program Load". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 17:43:20 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:43:20 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <20111207163843.GL9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111207163843.GL9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDFA5B8.5000701@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:26:49AM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: >> Thanks for the quick response!! >> >> Ted: >>> does it let you delete one file even? >> Not sure as the directory is so big I can't get it to list the file names. > ls by default sorts. If you asked it not to sort it would probably work. > > find doesn't sort, and hence has no such issue. > Of course, it should be possible to delete files without running ls first. I'd try something like rm * in that directory to see what happens. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 17:46:39 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 12:46:39 -0500 Subject: Monitor issue - Samsung SyncMaster P2770 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111207174639.GM9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:38:43AM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > Just curious, any one here use the above monitor? I have tried to > google for its user manual without lack and I am getting irritated by > a "feature" where it keep cycling through all its source. I have not > found a way to configure it manually to remain on "digital source" > > A bit about the monitor, it has analogue, digital and HDMI interface. > HDMI is useless as the laptop does not have HDMI input and converter > result to a down graded display. So I was forced to use DVI. After > that, the monitor go blank when the circuit decided to automatically > scan through all the inputs. I have not found a way of disabling this > annoying feature. > > Anyone here know what to do from the top of their head? Seem nothing > out there have a decent manual any more It seems to be a popular "feature" on samsung screens. I checked what appeared to be a manual and it makes no mention of it. It does mention that only inputs with detected signals are selectable, which is probably related. If a signal goes away, it declares the input no longer valid and starts to search for a valid one. It is VERY annoyung, -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 17:47:07 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 12:47:07 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <4EDFA5B8.5000701-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20111207163843.GL9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDFA5B8.5000701@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111207174707.GN9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 12:43:20PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Of course, it should be possible to delete files without running ls > first. I'd try something like rm * in that directory to see what > happens. You will probably exceed the shell command line limit. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 18:09:43 2011 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:09:43 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <20111207174707.GN9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111207163843.GL9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDFA5B8.5000701@rogers.com> <20111207174707.GN9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1323281383.31848.4.camel@cougar-natty> On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 12:47 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 12:43:20PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > Of course, it should be possible to delete files without running ls > > first. I'd try something like rm * in that directory to see what > > happens. > > You will probably exceed the shell command line limit. Some commands do their own wildcard expansion; I do not know if `rm` is one of them. So, whether it works or not, the shell should not complain if you do `rm '*'`. Just kibitzing, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 18:12:36 2011 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:12:36 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <20111207174707.GN9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111207163843.GL9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDFA5B8.5000701@rogers.com> <20111207174707.GN9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EDFAC94.2040104@rogers.com> On 07/12/11 12:47 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 12:43:20PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >> I'd try something like rm * in that directory to see what >> happens. > > You will probably exceed the shell command line limit. Yup, I've that happen. Usually I do: rm a* rm b* ... etc. or, rm [a-k]* -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 18:25:42 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 13:25:42 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <1323281383.31848.4.camel@cougar-natty> References: <20111207163843.GL9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDFA5B8.5000701@rogers.com> <20111207174707.GN9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1323281383.31848.4.camel@cougar-natty> Message-ID: <20111207182542.GO9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 01:09:43PM -0500, Terrence Enger wrote: > Some commands do their own wildcard expansion; I do not know if `rm` > is one of them. So, whether it works or not, the shell should not > complain if you do `rm '*'`. Very few commands in unix do wildcard expansion. The shell always does it so why implement it in any command? rm certainly does not. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 18:27:06 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 13:27:06 -0500 Subject: Unable to delete LARGE folder In-Reply-To: <4EDFAC94.2040104-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20111207163843.GL9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDFA5B8.5000701@rogers.com> <20111207174707.GN9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EDFAC94.2040104@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111207182706.GP9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 01:12:36PM -0500, Yanni Chiu wrote: > Yup, I've that happen. > > Usually I do: > > rm a* > rm b* > ... etc. > > or, > rm [a-k]* With 200000+ files, that might not even be enough. Use find. It works. And it's faster. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 18:29:57 2011 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 13:29:57 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: <4EDF9325.5070907-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4EDF9325.5070907@rogers.com> Message-ID: <793a9436e7cb83abe0228b7e6f9ad1a1.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> I still have some paper tapes for them. > > Anyone recall using the PDP-8 RIM loader? Yeah. First you toggled in a very small machine language program from the front panel switches. That loaded a paper tape with the real loader. Then you could load the program. That was ugly. But not as ugly as debugging on the PDP-12 that Ryerson had, equipped with 4K 12-bit words of memory (at $1 a word). You'd load and run your program. (see above). Lights would flash on the console. There would be great activity from the LINC tape drives. Then after a long pause the program would stop with one word in the centre of the CRT display: NO So much for informative error messages. When we phoned Dec about this, they said we could get real error messages if we had an additional 4k words of memory. Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 21:24:06 2011 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 16:24:06 -0500 Subject: Adventures Setting up a Debian System Message-ID: <20111207212406.GA27342@yam.witteman.ca> I am in the process of setting up a Debian system, to be a clone of another desktop/server. There have been a few hiccoughs: Burned a net install disc - booted, said okey-dokey to the usual options, including guided partitioning. This gave me a 10Gb root filesystem. This will come up again later. It started up just fine, but I wanted a "testing" system. So, I edit /etc/apt/sources.list to Debian testing, including the contrib and non-free sections. Then I ran an apt-get dist-upgrade to get all the way to testing This worked, but it failed half a dozen times before finishing - I needed to use apt-get -f dist-upgrade. On the upside, the error messages suggested the extra switch, but it did take a while. Next, I want the same set of packages on this machine as on another machine I've got. To do this I use dpkg --get-selections > packages.txt on my old machine, and dpkg --set-selections < packages.txt && dselect install on the new machine. It turns out, dselect had to be installed first. Once it starts though, lot of packages get downloaded - a few Gbs worth. It installs for a while, and then it starts throwing "I'm out of room!" errors. No joke, after a while it errors all the way out, and I am using 100% of my 10Gb root partition. I run apt-get clean, which clears out 600Mb, and start again - all of the packages that I hadn't installed yet when I ran out of space just got jettisoned and need to be redownloaded, which is a bit of a pain. When I finish, I'm using 89% of the 10Gb - not as much headroom for excitable log files as you might hope for. Aside: Does anyone know if/how I can resize the root partition - I'm using LVM? It makes sense to have more room, and I don't need /home to be as big as it is. Thanks! There are a few other things to sort out - adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to my PATH so sudo actually works, permanently turning off gdm, etc. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 21:31:04 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 16:31:04 -0500 Subject: Adventures Setting up a Debian System In-Reply-To: <20111207212406.GA27342-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111207212406.GA27342@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20111207213104.GA14813@watson-wilson.ca> You can resize file systems using LVM assuming the file system is ext3. Relevant commands may still be lvextend and resize2fs. There is always some risk though but since it is a new system you only loose the time to make it. I've never seen a new Debian install take as much space as you describe. What packages did you install? -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 21:34:37 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 16:34:37 -0500 Subject: Adventures Setting up a Debian System In-Reply-To: <20111207212406.GA27342-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111207212406.GA27342@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <4EDFDBED.4010607@utoronto.ca> On 12/07/2011 04:24 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > Aside: Does anyone know if/how I can resize the root partition - I'm using > LVM? It makes sense to have more room, and I don't need /home to be as big > as it is. Thanks! > > There are a few other things to sort out - adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to > my PATH so sudo actually works, permanently turning off gdm, etc. You want to use lvextend and resize2fs (presuming you're using ext3/4 for a filesystem). Note you need to unmount the filesystem first! Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 21:44:36 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 16:44:36 -0500 Subject: Adventures Setting up a Debian System In-Reply-To: <20111207212406.GA27342-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111207212406.GA27342@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20111207214436.GQ9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 04:24:06PM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I am in the process of setting up a Debian system, to be a clone of > another desktop/server. There have been a few hiccoughs: > > Burned a net install disc - booted, said okey-dokey to the usual > options, including guided partitioning. This gave me a 10Gb root > filesystem. This will come up again later. Well the default is to use one large partition (which is in the vast majority of cases the correct option). The split partition setup really does require more input and knowledge to know what space you need in each partition. > It started up just fine, but I wanted a "testing" system. So, I edit > /etc/apt/sources.list to Debian testing, including the contrib and > non-free sections. > > Then I ran an apt-get dist-upgrade to get all the way to testing > > This worked, but it failed half a dozen times before finishing - I needed > to use apt-get -f dist-upgrade. On the upside, the error messages > suggested the extra switch, but it did take a while. > > Next, I want the same set of packages on this machine as on another > machine I've got. To do this I use dpkg --get-selections > packages.txt > on my old machine, and dpkg --set-selections < packages.txt && dselect > install on the new machine. > > It turns out, dselect had to be installed first. You can do it with 'apt-get dselect-upgrade'. No dselect pain required. > Once it starts though, lot of packages get downloaded - a few Gbs worth. > It installs for a while, and then it starts throwing "I'm out of room!" > errors. No joke, after a while it errors all the way out, and I am > using 100% of my 10Gb root partition. I run apt-get clean, which clears > out 600Mb, and start again - all of the packages that I hadn't installed > yet when I ran out of space just got jettisoned and need to be > redownloaded, which is a bit of a pain. > > When I finish, I'm using 89% of the 10Gb - not as much headroom for > excitable log files as you might hope for. Did you ever run 'apt-get clean' to remove the downloaded packages from the cache directory? Those things add up over time. > Aside: Does anyone know if/how I can resize the root partition - I'm using > LVM? It makes sense to have more room, and I don't need /home to be as big > as it is. Thanks! Boot some livecd revovery disk, and use it to resize things. It would probably be much faster to just start over though at this point. > There are a few other things to sort out - adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to Well /sbin and /usr/sbin are not supposed to be in the path of regular unix traditionally, and debian doesn't setup sudo by default either. You can certainly add them in your .bash* files or even system wide if desired (probably not) in /etc/profile and such. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 7 21:47:30 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 16:47:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: | From: Scott Allen | To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 09:56:06 -0500 | Subject: Re: [TLUG]: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth | and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] | Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org | | On 6 December 2011 23:28, wrote: | > Personally, I found programming in PDP-8 assembler a huge chore and never | > got the hang of it. The 6502 instruction set was a gift from god by | > comparison. | | The company I started working for, back in the late '70's was founded | by a few people who used to work at IBM. | | The head technical guy was used to working on IBM System/360 class | machines, but we were developing products based on the 8080 CPU. The | 8080 based product was also suitable as a development machine. Rather | than create a development environment using 8080 code, he wrote a | System/360 instruction set emulator for the 8080 and then proceeded to | write an editor, 360 assembler, job control language, etc. in 360 | assembly code. So we had an emulated System/360 running on an 8080 | microcomputer. Wow. That's awesomely goofy. /360 code was engineered for a quite different world. The machine language was better than the 8080's in a number of ways but not in code density, which mattered when your address space is only 64k. Emulating would have created an enormous hit. If you were willing to pay that, might as well get something worthwhile for the cost -- UCSD's pcode comes to mind. | Products that we sold that used an 8080 (or later Z80) CPU also ran | this emulator and much of the application code was written in Sys/360 | assembler. One of the best features of /360 machine code, as compared to 8080 code, was that you could reasonably compile to it so high-level languages were more practical. So to write in /360 assemble was dumb. | Some parts of the 8080 product applications ran native 8080 code, | which was created using an 8080 cross assembler written in Sys/360 | assembly code. So we had an 8080 system emulating a Sys/360 which ran | a cross assembler to generate 8080 code. That takes the cake: writing all that systems software, for no leaverage. Wow. One example where it kind of made sense: I understand that the IBM 5100 had an 8080, emulating a /360, so that it could run APL\360. This made a great implementation of a powerful language available without a mainframe. It did not take over the world. The MCM/70 was an APL machine implemented on an 8008 or 8080. It was interesting but didn't take over the world. A local product: the APL was originally York APL. Apparently no source code of York APL still exists. For years, I had a big pile of scrap paper that had been a listing of it, but when I went to look for it to give to the York computer museum, I couldn't find it. York APL was written in /360 assembler first but rewritten for the MCM/70 hardware, as I understand it. | My experience was similar to Peter's: I preferred working with 8080 | assembler over Sys/360 assembler. I imagine it is partly a matter of what you deeply understand. /360 assembler was more powerful and better for larger programs. Its regularity made it a better target for compilers of conventional languages. The 8080 was quite workable for humans. But it hit annoying walls quickly. Like lack of address space, no indexing, almost no 16-bit support, let alone 32-bit support, no memory protection, no invalid opcodes. The worst part of /360 assembly programming was talking to the aweful OS APIs. Second worst: worrying about base register coverage for your code. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 04:03:35 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 23:03:35 -0500 Subject: Output from 'xxd' -- what mime.types? Message-ID: <20111208040335.GA3531@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi All, I like "xxd" way more than "uuencode" or "mimencode". It may double the size, but is much easier to deal with, particularly with "xxd -r". Output from "xxd" looks something like 0000000: 4241 5348 3d2f 6269 6e2f 6261 7368 0a42 BASH=/bin/bash.B 0000010: 4153 484f 5054 533d 636d 6468 6973 743a ASHOPTS=cmdhist: 0000020: 6578 7471 756f 7465 3a66 6f72 6365 5f66 extquote:force_f ... Output from "xxd -p" looks like 424153483d2f62696e2f626173680a424153484f5054533d636d64686973 743a65787471756f74653a666f7263655f6669676e6f72653a686f737463 6f6d706c6574653a696e7465726163746976655f636f6d6d656e74733a70 ... Do you know what mime.types it should be? I would to use something more descriptive than "plain/text"... may be "plain/xxd"? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 13:11:03 2011 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 08:11:03 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On 7 December 2011 16:47, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Scott Allen > | The head technical guy was used to working on IBM System/360 class > | machines, but we were developing products based on the 8080 CPU. The > | 8080 based product was also suitable as a development machine. Rather > | than create a development environment using 8080 code, he wrote a > | System/360 instruction set emulator for the 8080 and then proceeded to > | write an editor, 360 assembler, job control language, etc. in 360 > | assembly code. So we had an emulated System/360 running on an 8080 > | microcomputer. > Emulating would have created an enormous hit. ?If you were willing to > pay that, might as well get something worthwhile for the cost -- > UCSD's pcode comes to mind. I think that was probably the idea; that if we wanted to move our development environment and some applications to another processor, all it would require would be to write a Sys/360 emulator for it (it never happened though). Emulating did create a bit of a hit. For instance: If you wanted to see the machine code generated by the assembler, you had to send the output to a line printer. The assembler was so slow that the high speed Printronix P300 printer often paused due to lack of input (at 9600 baud serial). The actual product applications that used the emulator weren't that time critical, though, so it wasn't much of a problem there. > | Some parts of the 8080 product applications ran native 8080 code, > | which was created using an 8080 cross assembler written in Sys/360 > | assembly code. So we had an 8080 system emulating a Sys/360 which ran > | a cross assembler to generate 8080 code. > > That takes the cake: writing all that systems software, for no > leaverage. ?Wow. Well, the same development environment was used to assemble or cross-assemble for processors other than the 8080; the aforementioned emulated Sys/360, the National Semiconductor SC/MP the Fairchild F8 the Intel 3000 bit-slice system among others. So having a different development environment environment just for the 8080 didn't make sense. > One example where it kind of made sense: I understand that the IBM > 5100 had an 8080, emulating a /360, so that it could run APL\360. > This made a great implementation of a powerful language available > without a mainframe. ?It did not take over the world. And, coincidentally (or perhaps not?), one of the first products that we used this emulator for was an "intelligent" 8 inch floppy drive for the IBM 5100, which natively only had tape support. The drive was interfaced to the 5100 through a serial port. >From what I find from a web search, the 5100 wasn't 8080 based. It used a proprietary processor. > | My experience was similar to Peter's: I preferred working with 8080 > | assembler over Sys/360 assembler. > > I imagine it is partly a matter of what you deeply understand. And probably why the head engineer wrote the 360 emulator. > The 8080 was quite workable for humans. ?But it hit annoying walls > quickly. ?Like lack of address space, no indexing, almost no 16-bit > support, let alone 32-bit support, no memory protection, no invalid > opcodes. Indexing was one of the big features that the Z80 added. It also added invalid opcodes :-) -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 15:56:58 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:56:58 -0500 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). Message-ID: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). Just to note that the next GTALug PAC meeting will be : December 12th 2011, 7:00 PM at my place (near Yonge and Eglinton). This will be discussions about where open source and politics cross paths (ie: things like copyright law). Anyone interested in attending please let me know, and I will send the exact address (this is because my living room is ... not huge and I would like to know how many people to expect). Thanks. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 16:05:34 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:05:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: | From: Scott Allen | Indexing was one of the big features that the Z80 added. Yes, but if you looked at the actual bytes of generated code, it didn't often make your code much faster or shorter. I had z80s but didn't find it worthwhile to use any of the added instructions. Even the block move instructions weren't much faster than a loop: they refetched the instruction for each byte! | It also added invalid opcodes :-) What I meant was: detecting invalid opcodes and trapping. I don't think that the z80 did that. Assembly programs go off the rails in a number of ways and having the system detect and stop them is handy. On /360, ABEND S0C1 (invalid opcode) and S0C4 (storage protection violation) were common and useful to me as a programmer. On the /360, arithmetic overflow can cause a trap, but that is normally disabled. I usually enabled it in my programs because it detected real bugs. This is an example where the /360 is superior to the PDP-11, but most architects don't notice: the /360 had two sets of certain arithmetic instructions: ones where the operand was unsigned and ones where it was signed two's complement. Although the calculated result was the same, the concept of overflow was different. This allowed trap-on-overflow to be reasonable. On the PDP-11, the CPU doesn't know whether the "c" condition or the "v" condition is an error because it doesn't know if the operation is signed or unsigned. In C code, one of the most common run-time errors is dereferencing a NULL pointer. On the original Mac, it would just silently work, operating on location 0. On the Atari ST, location 0 references (or perhaps only stores, I don't remember) would trap. When an ST program to emulate the Mac was created, I think the majority of the work to make it practical was to create fixups for all the important Mac programs that silently dereferenced NULL. I heard that a few Mac programmers bought an ST + the emulator to catch bugs in their own programs! Later Macs forbid dereferencing NULL. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 16:11:36 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:11:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Colin McGregor | GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). Neat. Is this a new creation? PAC is a loaded term in US politics. Does that make the name better or worse for this group? | (ie: things like copyright law). Boy, that's really important RIGHT NOW. C-11 is likely to be passed soon. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 16:44:07 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:44:07 -0500 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:11 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Colin McGregor > > | GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). > > Neat. > > Is this a new creation? Over a year old, but the first meetings were held in Mike Kallies' apartment (and who's living room is even smaller than mine). > PAC is a loaded term in US politics. ?Does that make the name better > or worse for this group? Not sure. > | (ie: things like copyright law). > > Boy, that's really important RIGHT NOW. > C-11 is likely to be passed soon. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 16:53:12 2011 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:53:12 -0500 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). > > Just to note that the next GTALug PAC meeting will be : > > December 12th 2011, 7:00 PM at my place (near Yonge and Eglinton). > This will be discussions about where open source and politics cross > paths (ie: things like copyright law). > > Anyone interested in attending please let me know, and I will send the > exact address (this is because my living room is ... not huge and I > would like to know how many people to expect). Please announce future meetings? I would be very interested in attending, but there's no way I'll be able to make it this time around. Also, would it be worthwhile/possible to setup a list specifically for this committee? I'd really like to keep up on developments. As it stands, I'll be trying to get a similar group together in Hamilton (under a Pirate banner) starting in January. -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:02:00 2011 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 08/12/11 11:11 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Colin McGregor > > | GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). > > Neat. > > Is this a new creation? > > PAC is a loaded term in US politics. Does that make the name better > or worse for this group? PAC is a legal term in the Excited States. They're regulated in regard to how much we can contribute and how much they can spend and how much they can contribute to candidates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee > > | (ie: things like copyright law). > > Boy, that's really important RIGHT NOW. > C-11 is likely to be passed soon. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- There are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 17:41:15 2011 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 12:41:15 -0500 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Gary Layng wrote: > PAC is a legal term in the Excited States. ?They're regulated in regard to > how much we can contribute and how much they can spend and how much they can > contribute to candidates. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee We are more of an Advocacy Group primarily deal with the government sector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advocacy_group -- Myles Braithwaite http://mylesbraithwaite.com | me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 18:10:49 2011 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:10:49 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4EE0FDA9.5050909@the-wire.com> On 12/08/2011 11:05 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Scott Allen > > | Indexing was one of the big features that the Z80 added. > > Yes, but if you looked at the actual bytes of generated code, it > didn't often make your code much faster or shorter. I had z80s but > didn't find it worthwhile to use any of the added instructions. Granted, any code snippet using an X along with the other regs could be replaced by an equivalent snippet using HL and DE, and probably be smaller and faster. We had two big applications, though, where common code was augmented by big tables of structs with configuration info for the installation. We wrote the common data-processing routines for most efficient use of the vanilla 8080 registers, and pulled in the custom arguments via IX/IY pointers as needed. Trying this without IX and IY would have driven us all mad. > Even the block move instructions weren't much faster than a loop: they > refetched the instruction for each byte! Probably so that long strings of byte moves could be interrupted. Even so, you verge on the unfair, I think. LDIR took 21 clocks per byte, a naive loop for the same thing can take 42, and clobber the A register. Boy. Haven't thought about this stuff in a long time. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 18:15:28 2011 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:15:28 -0500 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EE0FEC0.6060507@the-wire.com> On 12/08/2011 12:02 PM, Gary Layng wrote: > On 08/12/11 11:11 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> | From: Colin McGregor >> >> | GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political >> Action Committee). >> >> Neat. >> >> Is this a new creation? >> >> PAC is a loaded term in US politics. Does that make the name better >> or worse for this group? > PAC is a legal term in the Excited States. They're regulated in > regard to how much we can contribute and how much they can spend and > how much they can contribute to candidates. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee Except for now, when they're not. I regret I don't have the links to Stephen Colbert where he's explaining how this works. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 18:25:51 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:25:51 -0500 Subject: old processor architectures [was Re: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix - IEEE Spectrum] In-Reply-To: <4EE0FDA9.5050909-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4ED8466A.2000606@rogers.com> <4EDE5BD8.7090407@rogers.com> <4EDE87C9.8090301@rogers.com> <34e2e94c6b3e99dd79ba9dae07319034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <4EE0FDA9.5050909@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <4EE1012F.7050203@rogers.com> Mel Wilson wrote: > Boy. Haven't thought about this stuff in a long time. Me either. Back when I had my IMSAI 8080, I used to do a lot of 8080 assembly programming. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 18:46:06 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 13:46:06 -0500 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). In-Reply-To: <4EE0FEC0.6060507-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EE0FEC0.6060507@the-wire.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: >> PAC is a legal term in the Excited States. ?They're regulated in regard to >> how much we can contribute and how much they can spend and how much they can >> contribute to candidates. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee > > Except for now, when they're not. ?I regret I don't have the links to > Stephen Colbert where he's explaining how this works. Yeah, when I lived in Texas, I got bugged by the "Sabre PAC" as a consequence of working at Sabre. They were pretty keen on having employees participate in PAC, so as to make sure Beltway "gravy train" activities were suitably influenced in favour of them. At the time, it appeared that I, as a foreign national, was legally precluded from involvement in that. At least, I took that reading of things; it allowed for some fun readings of things. "You see, I'm a foreign national; you know it's improper for foreigners to interfere in American politics, right?" It made the Sabre staff that called a tad mental; I *sounded* "pretty American" to them (when in Texas, I got a bit of "Yankee" reaction, 'cause from down there, we're all 'up North'), so it kept surprising them that I *wasn't* a citizen. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 19:52:27 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 14:52:27 -0500 Subject: GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> GTALug (Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group) PAC (Political Action Committee). >> >> Just to note that the next GTALug PAC meeting will be : >> >> December 12th 2011, 7:00 PM at my place (near Yonge and Eglinton). >> This will be discussions about where open source and politics cross >> paths (ie: things like copyright law). >> >> Anyone interested in attending please let me know, and I will send the >> exact address (this is because my living room is ... not huge and I >> would like to know how many people to expect). > > Please announce future meetings? I would be very interested in > attending, but there's no way I'll be able to make it this time > around. I will try to. Keep in mind that 2nd Monday of the month is not our usual meeting date, but with the holidays the schedule had to be shifted... > Also, would it be worthwhile/possible to setup a list specifically for > this committee? ?I'd really like to keep up on developments. > > As it stands, I'll be trying to get a similar group together in > Hamilton (under a Pirate banner) starting in January. > > -- > ? Scott Elcomb > ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca > > ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems > ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ > > ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada > ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 21:43:50 2011 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 21:43:50 +0000 Subject: PC Routers Message-ID: Hello all, I've been using an old PC with Coyote Linux as my internet router for quite a few years. I'd like to set up another router to be ready in case the old one experiences a power supply failure. I have enough old equipment to do this, although I've yet to see the RAM requirements on the new coyote linux. I have 128MB EDO on the unit I want to use. The old coyote fw only needed 16Mb to run. I like this set up because it uses a floppy (or CD) and there's no HD for crackers to get into. However, I'm wondering if it's time to switch to a commercial router (less power usage, smaller footprint). But can they be made as secure as something like coyote linux? If anyone is still using a PC for a router, what's your reasoning for not changing to commercial hardware? By the way, I don't need wireless at this point. Thanks, John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 21:54:41 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 16:54:41 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:43 PM, wrote: > Hello all, > > I've been using an old PC with Coyote Linux as my internet router for quite > a few years. I'd like to set up another router to be ready in case the old > one experiences a power supply failure. I have enough old equipment to do > this, although I've yet to see the RAM requirements on the new coyote linux. > I have 128MB EDO on the unit I want to use. The old coyote fw only needed > 16Mb to run. I like this set up because it uses a floppy (or CD) and there's > no HD for crackers to get into. > > However, I'm wondering if it's time to switch to a commercial router (less > power usage, smaller footprint). But can they be made as secure as something > like coyote linux? If anyone is still using a PC for a router, what's your > reasoning for not changing to commercial hardware? My suggestion would be to get a commercial router that can be re-flashed with OpenWRT and/or Tomato Linux (I am rather partial to the Linksys WRT54GL type routers, but there are others). This means you have Linux level security, along with small footprint, and low power consumption. Best of all worlds. If you don't need wireless that can be turned off via the configuration menus and/or files (and for the truly paranoid you can remove the antennas...). > By the way, I don't need wireless at this point. > > Thanks, > > John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 22:01:57 2011 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 17:01:57 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:43 PM, wrote: > However, I'm wondering if it's time to switch to a commercial router (less > power usage, smaller footprint). But can they be made as secure as something > like coyote linux? If anyone is still using a PC for a router, what's your > reasoning for not changing to commercial hardware? Just curious, what kind of environment (home, commercial, non-profit, etc.) are you looking at? For many cases, I'd agree with Colin - a commercial router running OpenWRT or similar is a good solution. At home, I have IPCop running on a PC (in front of a DMZ); it's been blocking between 500-1500 intrusion attempts per day since the summer and logs (and blocks) any unusual traffic coming from within my networks. Power consumption sucks, but I like the amount of control it provides. -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 22:19:15 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 17:19:15 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EE137E3.6070201@rogers.com> john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hello all, > > I've been using an old PC with Coyote Linux as my internet router for > quite a few years. I'd like to set up another router to be ready in > case the old one experiences a power supply failure. I have enough old > equipment to do this, although I've yet to see the RAM requirements on > the new coyote linux. I have 128MB EDO on the unit I want to use. The > old coyote fw only needed 16Mb to run. I like this set up because it > uses a floppy (or CD) and there's no HD for crackers to get into. > > However, I'm wondering if it's time to switch to a commercial router > (less power usage, smaller footprint). But can they be made as secure > as something like coyote linux? If anyone is still using a PC for a > router, what's your reasoning for not changing to commercial hardware? > > By the way, I don't need wireless at this point. > > Thanks, > > John. I have used a Linux box for a router for years. My current one is openSUSE 11.3 on an old Compaq. One nice thing about Linux boxes as firewalls, is that you can really customize what you have on it. For example, I have mine set up for a masking cahcing DNS, DHCP & NTP servers, VPN and 6in4 IPv6 tunnel etc. I have also considered moving my IMAP server to it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 22:59:43 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 17:59:43 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 04:54:41PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > My suggestion would be to get a commercial router that can be > re-flashed with OpenWRT and/or Tomato Linux (I am rather partial to > the Linksys WRT54GL type routers, but there are others). This means > you have Linux level security, along with small footprint, and low > power consumption. Best of all worlds. If you don't need wireless that > can be turned off via the configuration menus and/or files (and for > the truly paranoid you can remove the antennas...). WRT54GL specificaly is ancient, slow, resource limited, broadcom based (a rather bad thing for wifi drivers in general), and runs rather hot. Really, what's to like? One of the Atheros MIPS24k based with 64MB ram on the other hand and USB2 and such is way more interesting. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 8 23:43:19 2011 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 18:43:19 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111208225943.GR9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 8 December 2011 17:59, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > WRT54GL specificaly is ancient, slow, resource limited, broadcom based > (a rather bad thing for wifi drivers in general), and runs rather hot. > > Really, what's to like? The price? I got one from NCIX on sale for $25, although it was a Linksys certified refurb. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 00:24:58 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 19:24:58 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Scott Allen wrote: > On 8 December 2011 17:59, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> WRT54GL specificaly is ancient, slow, resource limited, broadcom based >> (a rather bad thing for wifi drivers in general), and runs rather hot. >> >> Really, what's to like? > > The price? I got one from NCIX on sale for $25, although it was a > Linksys certified refurb. Exactly, I've gotten a couple of free early WRT54G (OpenWRT/Tomato compatible) routers from people upgrading to 802.11n routers. Are the WRT54G/WRT54GL's perfect? Obviously no, but they have a smaller footprint than almost any PC, they consume far less power than almost all PCs and the price can not be beaten. As Lennart notes there are some routers that have better power consumption numbers, better drivers and a longer list of features, all at a MUCH higher price. Regardless, I stand by the view that OpenWRT or Tomato Linux running on a commercial router (be it an inexpensive one (like the WRT54GL) or a feature rich one (like the Atheros MIPS24k based ones)) is in MOST situations a much better option than a PC running Coyote Linux. Colin > -- > Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 04:06:21 2011 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 23:06:21 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: This conversatoin keeps coming up and I keep giving the same response.. :) I would suggest a Wyse VX0 terminal, or any of these: http://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/ You can get them for ~$30 on Ebay, they have 1Ghz VIA x86 processors and USB 2.0. They run Linux quite well, are low on power and with a IDE based flash drive, possibilities are quite endless. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:24 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Scott Allen wrote: > > On 8 December 2011 17:59, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > >> WRT54GL specificaly is ancient, slow, resource limited, broadcom based > >> (a rather bad thing for wifi drivers in general), and runs rather hot. > >> > >> Really, what's to like? > > > > The price? I got one from NCIX on sale for $25, although it was a > > Linksys certified refurb. > > Exactly, I've gotten a couple of free early WRT54G (OpenWRT/Tomato > compatible) routers from people upgrading to 802.11n routers. Are the > WRT54G/WRT54GL's perfect? Obviously no, but they have a smaller > footprint than almost any PC, they consume far less power than almost > all PCs and the price can not be beaten. As Lennart notes there are > some routers that have better power consumption numbers, better > drivers and a longer list of features, all at a MUCH higher price. > > Regardless, I stand by the view that OpenWRT or Tomato Linux running > on a commercial router (be it an inexpensive one (like the WRT54GL) or > a feature rich one (like the Atheros MIPS24k based ones)) is in MOST > situations a much better option than a PC running Coyote Linux. > > Colin > > > -- > > Scott > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 06:12:17 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 01:12:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Ansar Mohammed | I would suggest a Wyse VX0 terminal, or any of these: | http://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/ | You can get them for ~$30 on Ebay, they have 1Ghz VIA x86 processors and | USB 2.0. | They run Linux quite well, are low on power and with a IDE based flash | drive, possibilities are quite endless. Cute. UniChrome video interfaces are not well supported in Linux. Like many cute boxes, this only has one ethernet port. You'd have to use an USB ethernet interface to extend it. I don't really like using USB dongles as ethernet interfaces. This isn't tested, but I think USB overhead is expensive and the USB 2.x transfer rate isn't up to 1G ethernet. I wish there were USB 3.x 1G ethernet dongles. (I just bought some cute boxes with only one ethernet interface.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 14:05:58 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 09:05:58 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111209140558.GA3293@watson-wilson.ca> If you want to spend a little there are some nice boards you can buy to build your own. They will perform better and be more reliably than any consumer grade router. For example: http://soekris.com/net6501.htm -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 16:15:41 2011 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 11:15:41 -0500 Subject: Nautilus at 62% of CPU on boot Message-ID: <40008a81110425dde1718e26a4d5f7bd.squirrel@nray.ca> Hey all, I'm running Mint 11 on my laptop and recently I've been experiencing performance issues. When I run top I see nautilus using 62% of CPU. That's on boot before I'm running any applications. I've tried uninstalling and re-installing nautilus but no change. Is there a substitute program I could use that would work? Thanks, Stephen ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 16:59:17 2011 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 11:59:17 -0500 Subject: Nautilus at 62% of CPU on boot In-Reply-To: <40008a81110425dde1718e26a4d5f7bd.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <40008a81110425dde1718e26a4d5f7bd.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <18ef4cadf0c83fde2ae2d97576afa389.squirrel@nray.ca> A google search suggested Thuanr so I've change my default file browser. I'll see how this goes. Stephen > Hey all, > > I'm running Mint 11 on my laptop and recently I've been experiencing > performance issues. When I run top I see nautilus using 62% of CPU. That's > on boot before I'm running any applications. > > I've tried uninstalling and re-installing nautilus but no change. > Is there a substitute program I could use that would work? > > Thanks, > > Stephen > > > ____________________ > Stephen W. Clarke > Marketing and Communications Officer > Nray Services Inc. > 56A Head Street > Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 > CANADA > > (905) 627-1302 x14 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 17:44:47 2011 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 12:44:47 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111209174447.GV32262@adb.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I don't really like using USB dongles as ethernet interfaces. This > isn't tested, but I think USB overhead is expensive and the USB 2.x > transfer rate isn't up to 1G ethernet. You certainly wouldn't want to try that between gigabit LAN segments, but a large number of router deployments involve a low-bandwidth Internet uplink, WAN, or wireless connection on one side, leaving a small box and a slow interface being not an unconscionable bottleneck in the situation. As a sysadmin, I'd put the most reliable interface on the side facing where I'm sitting, so that I have a chance of debugging issues on the other side. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 19:48:53 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 14:48:53 -0500 Subject: For Gnome 3 'refugees'. Message-ID: http://www.thevarguy.com/2011/11/23/could-mate-be-the-savior-of-the-gnome-2-linux-interface/ -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 9 23:17:09 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 18:17:09 -0500 Subject: Gnome Do Message-ID: Finding this very useful. It is similar to Alt-F2, in that you can type the first few letters of an application name and it will find similar. You can also browse your filesystem, though, and there are plugins for other functions, like one of my favourites which lets you paste in a long URL for shortening with TinyURL. Available in Debian repos, works with Gnome 3, I almost never use the Activities overlay anymore. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 20:46:41 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:46:41 -0500 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 Message-ID: <4EE3C531.60707@dinamis.com> Hello, Thanks to Giles Orr, I'm happily using Freemind. Inspired by Chris Browne's comments about Java not necessarily being as slow and piggy as the popular wisdom would suggest, I decided to give Eclipse another shot. After installing from the Fedora repos, I installed the PyDev and Mylyn add-ons. Mylyn has a Trac connector and as those of you who attended my presentation a couple of months ago about Trac know, we use it extensively for managing projects. I had to configure Trac to expose an xmlrpc interface and then configure a repository in Eclipse to connect to Trac via xmlrpc. I got an exception: "Internal error validating repository: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/xmlrpc/XmlRpcException". To determine whether the problem was on the Trac side or on the Eclipse side, I wrote a simple Python script to authenticate against Trac and then query Trac for the xmlrpc methods it exposed. It worked so I knew that Trac was configured properly. I thought it could be a missing dependency in Eclipse. That was not the case. The package containing org.eclipse.mylyn.internal.trac.core.TracClientFactory.createClient(TracClientFactory.java:34), which is what threw the exception, was installed. I Googled and couldn't find anything useful. A few blog posts talked about how easy it was to set this up. The only problems that people seemed to encounter were on the Trac side, which I was fairly certain was working. I downloaded an Eclipse distro for OS X and tried connecting to Trac from Mylyn. It worked so now I knew that it was something specific to Eclipse. I then downloaded an Eclipse distro for Linux and installed it in my home directory. After installing Mylyn, etc., I was able to connect to Trac in exactly the same manner as had failed with the Fedora-supplied Eclipse. Unfortunately, that Eclipse distro is otherwise unusable. It takes 15 seconds to open a file in the editor after double clicking and switching from one open file tab to another is equally slow. Therefore, I'm quite motivated to get the Fedora-supplied Eclipse working. Any suggestions would be welcome and appreciated. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 22:52:15 2011 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:52:15 -0800 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 Message-ID: <5349660984582254792@unknownmsgid> You're missing the From: CLIFFORD ILKAY Sent: 2011-12-10 12:47 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 Hello, Thanks to Giles Orr, I'm happily using Freemind. Inspired by Chris Browne's comments about Java not necessarily being as slow and piggy as the popular wisdom would suggest, I decided to give Eclipse another shot. After installing from the Fedora repos, I installed the PyDev and Mylyn add-ons. Mylyn has a Trac connector and as those of you who attended my presentation a couple of months ago about Trac know, we use it extensively for managing projects. I had to configure Trac to expose an xmlrpc interface and then configure a repository in Eclipse to connect to Trac via xmlrpc. I got an exception: "Internal error validating repository: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/xmlrpc/XmlRpcException". To determine whether the problem was on the Trac side or on the Eclipse side, I wrote a simple Python script to authenticate against Trac and then query Trac for the xmlrpc methods it exposed. It worked so I knew that Trac was configured properly. I thought it could be a missing dependency in Eclipse. That was not the case. The package containing org.eclipse.mylyn.internal.trac.core.TracClientFactory.createClient(TracClientFactory.java:34), which is what threw the exception, was installed. I Googled and couldn't find anything useful. A few blog posts talked about how easy it was to set this up. The only problems that people seemed to encounter were on the Trac side, which I was fairly certain was working. I downloaded an Eclipse distro for OS X and tried connecting to Trac from Mylyn. It worked so now I knew that it was something specific to Eclipse. I then downloaded an Eclipse distro for Linux and installed it in my home directory. After installing Mylyn, etc., I was able to connect to Trac in exactly the same manner as had failed with the Fedora-supplied Eclipse. Unfortunately, that Eclipse distro is otherwise unusable. It takes 15 seconds to open a file in the editor after double clicking and switching from one open file tab to another is equally slow. Therefore, I'm quite motivated to get the Fedora-supplied Eclipse working. Any suggestions would be welcome and appreciated. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 10 22:55:20 2011 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:55:20 -0800 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 Message-ID: <5059869300488623270@unknownmsgid> Sorry both for the double post and for top posting; sending from my phone is clumsy. You're missing the class named org.apache.xmlrpc.XmlRpcException, which suggests to me that you either have an incomplete classpath or you're missing a dependency. I'd start by searching to see what's supposed to provide that class, and then see if you have whatever that is. Ian From: CLIFFORD ILKAY Sent: 2011-12-10 12:47 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 Hello, Thanks to Giles Orr, I'm happily using Freemind. Inspired by Chris Browne's comments about Java not necessarily being as slow and piggy as the popular wisdom would suggest, I decided to give Eclipse another shot. After installing from the Fedora repos, I installed the PyDev and Mylyn add-ons. Mylyn has a Trac connector and as those of you who attended my presentation a couple of months ago about Trac know, we use it extensively for managing projects. I had to configure Trac to expose an xmlrpc interface and then configure a repository in Eclipse to connect to Trac via xmlrpc. I got an exception: "Internal error validating repository: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/xmlrpc/XmlRpcException". To determine whether the problem was on the Trac side or on the Eclipse side, I wrote a simple Python script to authenticate against Trac and then query Trac for the xmlrpc methods it exposed. It worked so I knew that Trac was configured properly. I thought it could be a missing dependency in Eclipse. That was not the case. The package containing org.eclipse.mylyn.internal.trac.core.TracClientFactory.createClient(TracClientFactory.java:34), which is what threw the exception, was installed. I Googled and couldn't find anything useful. A few blog posts talked about how easy it was to set this up. The only problems that people seemed to encounter were on the Trac side, which I was fairly certain was working. I downloaded an Eclipse distro for OS X and tried connecting to Trac from Mylyn. It worked so now I knew that it was something specific to Eclipse. I then downloaded an Eclipse distro for Linux and installed it in my home directory. After installing Mylyn, etc., I was able to connect to Trac in exactly the same manner as had failed with the Fedora-supplied Eclipse. Unfortunately, that Eclipse distro is otherwise unusable. It takes 15 seconds to open a file in the editor after double clicking and switching from one open file tab to another is equally slow. Therefore, I'm quite motivated to get the Fedora-supplied Eclipse working. Any suggestions would be welcome and appreciated. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 01:35:44 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 20:35:44 -0500 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 In-Reply-To: <5059869300488623270@unknownmsgid> References: <5059869300488623270@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EE408F0.8020102@dinamis.com> On 12/10/2011 05:55 PM, Ian Petersen wrote: > You're missing the class named org.apache.xmlrpc.XmlRpcException, which > suggests to me that you either have an incomplete classpath or you're > missing a dependency. I'd start by searching to see what's supposed to > provide that class, and then see if you have whatever that is. The package providing that class is installed, as I indicated in my original message. I'm going to remove everything related to Eclipse and re-install. I had installed Mylyn from within the Fedora Eclipse without realizing that I could have installed it via yum. I don't really understand this world like I understand the Python world. In Python, I only need the distro to supply the bare minimum Python. If it supplies pip, virtualenv, and virtualenvwrapper packages, that's great, too but it's not essential. I can always install them using easy_install. Once I have pip, I can "pip install" whatever I want inside virtualenvs created using virtualenvwrapper. I don't know if Java has anything similar to that. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 06:30:04 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 01:30:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: "HP to Contribute webOS to Open Source" Message-ID: A press release: I like WebOS. It is built on Linux. Might just turn out to be useful. But there are many ways that this could be uninteresting. We'll see. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 06:51:58 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 01:51:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111209174447.GV32262-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111209174447.GV32262@adb.ca> Message-ID: | From: Anthony de Boer | D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > I don't really like using USB dongles as ethernet interfaces. | | You certainly wouldn't want to try that between gigabit LAN segments, but | a large number of router deployments involve a low-bandwidth Internet | uplink, WAN, or wireless connection on one side, leaving a small box and | a slow interface being not an unconscionable bottleneck in the situation. Yes. Another approach I've wondered about is using a commodity consumer router + OpenWRT as a multiplexor/demultiplexor for a little PC. The little PC would use the vlan capability of the router to direct packets out any of the (likely 4) LAN ports on the router. (I think that we may have chatted about this.) Still another thing that MIGHT work is replacing a Mini PCI Express wireless card in many tiny PCs. Dual 1G ports! It isn't at all clear that this one would work with anything but a Commell motherboard. Here's another one. It has only a single port: MiniPCI Express ethernet doesn't seem common. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 07:11:55 2011 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 23:11:55 -0800 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 In-Reply-To: <4EE408F0.8020102-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <5059869300488623270@unknownmsgid> <4EE408F0.8020102@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:35 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On 12/10/2011 05:55 PM, Ian Petersen wrote: >> You're missing the class named org.apache.xmlrpc.XmlRpcException, which >> suggests to me that you either have an incomplete classpath or you're >> missing a dependency. I'd start by searching to see what's supposed to >> provide that class, and then see if you have whatever that is. > > > The package providing that class is installed, as I indicated in my original > message. Well, in your original message you said, "I thought it could be a missing dependency in Eclipse. That was not the case. The package containing org.eclipse.mylyn.internal.trac.core.TracClientFactory.createClient(TracClientFactory.java:34), which is what threw the exception, was installed." But it's unsurprising that the thing that threw the exception is installed; it has to be installed for it to run, and it has to run before it can throw an exception. The important part of the message is the class that couldn't be found, which is org.apache.xmlrpc.XmlRpcException. According to a random source I found in the first few hits on Google (http://www.jarfinder.com/index.php/java/info/org.apache.xmlrpc.XmlRpcException), the class that couldn't be found might come from a .jar file with xmlrpc in the name. Looking a little further, it appears that the central source for Apache's XML RPC implementation is at http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc, and the download page is at http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc/download.html. The binary archive contains, among other things, xmlrpc-common-3.1.3.jar, which includes a definition of XmlRpcException. > I'm going to remove everything related to Eclipse and re-install. I > had installed Mylyn from within the Fedora Eclipse without realizing that I > could have installed it via yum. I don't really understand this world like I > understand the Python world. In Python, I only need the distro to supply the > bare minimum Python. If it supplies pip, virtualenv, and virtualenvwrapper > packages, that's great, too but it's not essential. I can always install > them using easy_install. Once I have pip, I can "pip install" whatever I > want inside virtualenvs created using virtualenvwrapper. I don't know if > Java has anything similar to that. It's been a few years since I've worked much in the Java community, but there was nothing like what you describe for Java in general a few years ago. Eclipse is based on a plug-in architecture, though, and it has its own system for describing, distributing, and updating plug-ins (which you at least got a taste of if you installed Mylyn through Eclipse rather than yum). I don't know whether it's better to let yum or Eclipse manage your Eclipse plug-ins. Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 17:01:00 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 12:01:00 -0500 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 In-Reply-To: <4EE3C531.60707-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EE3C531.60707@dinamis.com> Message-ID: Well, I daresay I'm a bit suspicious that Eclipse may be one of the "bloated" things in Java. Lotta participants, including organizations that have some bloated systems in their histories... It's pretty popular, but it seems like more than Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping ;-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 17:01:00 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 12:01:00 -0500 Subject: Gnome Do In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The thing to compare this with is Quicksilver, which is an alternative program launcher on MacOS. Quicksilver behavior is that you hit C-space to launch, then... - enter launches the last thing launched - hit a and it'll propose a list of apps starting with a, ordered by popularity. s/a/some other letter/ as needed - more letters chooses perhaps more precisely - oh yeah, the choices might be other than applications. The objects to be selected from also include your contacts. - and while "launch" is the eponymous action, other actions are selectable. For a contact, sending email is an intuitive action, for instance. Quicksilver has gotten released as open source, and it has done a fair bit of inspiring for the various launchers of late. How much of that is needed for Gnome Do to be useful is a fine question. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 11 18:33:38 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:33:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dell sale on new 30" IPS screen. In-Reply-To: <20101205144237.GO12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101205144237.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 09:42:37 -0500 | | Dell has the U3011 (brand new model replacing the 3008WFP). Normally | $1599, on sale for $1199 today. Today, one year later, it is a one-day-special at $999.00 | The new regular price is only $100 | above the best sale price I have seen on the old model. | | 2560x1600 resolution, IPS panel, dual HDMI, dual DVI-D, single VGA, | single DP, single component input, and of course a memory card reader | and USB hub. | | To bad I don't really need a 30" screen, my 24" will have to do. :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 03:08:17 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:08:17 -0500 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 In-Reply-To: <5059869300488623270@unknownmsgid> References: <5059869300488623270@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EE57021.7020007@dinamis.com> On 12/10/2011 05:55 PM, Ian Petersen wrote: > You're missing the class named org.apache.xmlrpc.XmlRpcException, which > suggests to me that you either have an incomplete classpath or you're > missing a dependency. I'd start by searching to see what's supposed to > provide that class, and then see if you have whatever that is. I had yet a third Eclipse distro installed, Titanium Studio but I hadn't been able to install the Trac adapter for Mylyn on that one due to missing dependencies. I was able to figure that out and now I have a working and fast IDE that has the things I care about. The Titanium framework seems pretty interesting for mobile development. They claim you can create native applications targeting iOS, Android, and soon, BlackBerry, with one code base. I'm going to ignore the Eclipse that I'd installed via yum for now and just use Titanium Studio. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 20:32:02 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:32:02 -0500 Subject: Asus Service Center? Message-ID: Is there nowhere to take Asus netbooks for service in Toronto? On their site it doesn't even have one in Canada... -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 20:35:07 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:35:07 -0500 Subject: Asus Service Center? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EE6657B.5060900@alteeve.com> On 12/12/2011 03:32 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > Is there nowhere to take Asus netbooks for service in Toronto? On > their site it doesn't even have one in Canada... They have one in Markham, I believe. I took my Eee there for a replacement screen a few years back and they had it repaired the next day. -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "omg my singularity battery is dead again. stupid hawking radiation." - epitron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 21:32:35 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:32:35 -0500 Subject: Asus Service Center? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111212213235.GA13971@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 03:32:02PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > Is there nowhere to take Asus netbooks for service in Toronto? On > their site it doesn't even have one in Canada... Asus notebook service is at highway 7 and woodbine. You have to call to get an RMA number first though. Service is very fast in my experience. There is also a place downtown that at least used to be an option as well. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 21:37:56 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:37:56 -0500 Subject: Asus Service Center? In-Reply-To: <20111212213235.GA13971-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111212213235.GA13971@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 03:32:02PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Is there nowhere to take Asus netbooks for service in Toronto? On >> their site it doesn't even have one in Canada... > > Asus notebook service is at highway 7 and woodbine. > > You have to call to get an RMA number first though. ?Service is very > fast in my experience. > > There is also a place downtown that at least used to be an option as well. > I called back and this time confirmed that they do have a service depot on Cochrane in Markham. I can't believe the idiots they hire for these jobs. The first guy I got was completely inaudible, had no idea what 'Ontario' was, and insisted that there was no closer center than North Bay. Even the second person, once they confirmed the Markham depot, just got annoyed when I had the temerity to ask what their business hours might be. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 21:52:35 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:52:35 -0500 Subject: Asus Service Center? In-Reply-To: References: <20111212213235.GA13971@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111212215235.GB13971@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 04:37:56PM -0500, Thomas Milne wrote: > I called back and this time confirmed that they do have a service > depot on Cochrane in Markham. > > I can't believe the idiots they hire for these jobs. The first guy I > got was completely inaudible, had no idea what 'Ontario' was, and > insisted that there was no closer center than North Bay. Even the > second person, once they confirmed the Markham depot, just got annoyed > when I had the temerity to ask what their business hours might be. I believe they close at 6pm from memory. 9am to 6pm if my memory serves me right. Can't seem to find anything to confirm that though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 12 23:08:23 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:08:23 -0500 Subject: Interesting announcement on Dylan... Message-ID: For the "language geeks" around... http://opendylan.org/news/2011/12/10/new_release.html I had been under the impression that Dylan was fairly much a "dead language." (For those not familiar, it's kind of like a cross between C++ and Lisp. It uses C++-like syntax, but is a dynamic language that does functional application and garbage collection... The project was started by a bunch of Lispers notably including David Moon, and, during the pre-Steve-Jobs days, it was being sponsored by Apple.) The encouraging bit is that the developers have succeeded at removing about 1/3 of the code base, which evidently related to supporting platforms that effectively no longer exist or that are basically uninteresting today (Old MacOS, IRIX, SunOS, OSF3, PPC backend, Java backend). Outright removal of obsolete code should make it easier to support and perhaps even improve it. I'm not sure that Dylan will be the would-be C successor to "shake the world." (Of anything currently available, the most plausible to succeed C seems to me to be Go.) But it's a nice thing to see a bit of a success in deploying a new version/release. See it at GitHub, if you like... https://github.com/dylan-lang/ -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 01:22:04 2011 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:22:04 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111209174447.GV32262@adb.ca> Message-ID: <20111213012204.GB32262@adb.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Another approach I've wondered about is using a commodity consumer > router + OpenWRT as a multiplexor/demultiplexor for a little PC. The little PC > would use the vlan capability of the router to direct packets out any > of the (likely 4) LAN ports on the router. (I think that we may have > chatted about this.) In theory, a WRT54GL can be configured with each of its five Ethernet ports on a different segment, and ISTR is even capable of configuring 802.1q trunking, which would let you configure four virtual interfaces across a trunk cable from a Linux box to talk to four segments, using the Linksys as a bridge. However, with OpenWRT or such, the Linksys is a configurable Linux box in its own right, and I'd be more likely to do the actual routing there, unless there was some application involving a full BGP table or such that actually needed the big Linux box. Back at the ISP I used to help run, when we needed a lot of ports we could load up a Linux box with five 4-port PCI NICs, though later on the other strategy was to use 802.1q and have VLAN-capable switches peeling off the requisite ports halfway across the datacentre. A decent PC with a few quality NICs, running Linux and Zebra/Quagga, made a very good backbone router, and you could configure redundant pairs of them for less than the cost of one name-brand router. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 05:34:16 2011 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:34:16 -0500 Subject: portable realpath Message-ID: Hi, Anyone knows a portable way to get realpath, ie, the canonical file name of a symbolic link? Both GNU Linux and NetBSD seem to support 'readlink -f', but the '-f' will fail in FreeBSD, v8.2-RELEASE-p4 at least. Any suggestions? PS. 'readlink -f', will canonicalize by following every symlink in every component of the given name recursively. Thanks Antonio -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gyre-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 11:37:58 2011 From: gyre-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Eric) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 06:37:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: portable realpath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Dec 2011, Antonio Sun wrote: > Anyone knows a portable way to get realpath, ie, the canonical file name of > a symbolic link? > > Both GNU Linux and NetBSD seem to support 'readlink -f', but the '-f' will > fail in FreeBSD, v8.2-RELEASE-p4 at least. > > Any suggestions? > > PS. 'readlink -f', will canonicalize by following every symlink in every > component of the given name recursively. What about: perl -le 'use Cwd; print Cwd::realpath("tmp")' What is happening on FreeBSD, v8.2-RELEASE-p4, with 'readlink -f'? -- Eric. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 15:38:39 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:38:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: portable realpath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Antonio Sun | Anyone knows a portable way to get realpath, ie, the canonical file name of | a symbolic link? I find the term "canonical" odd. I realized that the term is (at least) used in realpath(1). But files in UNIX and Linux don't have canonical names (i.e. a guaranteed to be unique name). - a volume can be mounted more than one place - a file can have multiple names (hard links), all of equal status. Normally there are no hard links to directories (unless you count . and ..), but that restriction has been questioned. What realpath -f does is simply replace symbolic links by their referents. Perhaps it could be called evaluation or dereferencing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 15:48:18 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:48:18 -0500 Subject: portable realpath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EE773C2.8020103@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Normally there are no hard links to directories (unless you count . > and ..), but that restriction has been questioned. I thought multiple hard links didn't work with directories. Also are . and .. hard links or relative locations. You can have those in different directories, where they refer to different locations. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 16:59:10 2011 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:59:10 -0500 Subject: portable realpath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Eric, Anyone knows a portable way to get realpath, ie, the canonical file name of >> a symbolic link? >> >> Both GNU Linux and NetBSD seem to support 'readlink -f', but the '-f' will >> fail in FreeBSD, v8.2-RELEASE-p4 at least. >> >> What is happening on FreeBSD, v8.2-RELEASE-p4, with 'readlink -f'? $ readlink -f /tmp readlink: illegal option -- f usage: readlink [-n] [file ...] What about: > > perl -le 'use Cwd; print Cwd::realpath("tmp")' > Yep, that works. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 17:52:40 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:52:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: portable realpath In-Reply-To: <4EE773C2.8020103-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4EE773C2.8020103@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | I thought multiple hard links didn't work with directories. Also are . and .. | hard links or relative locations. You can have those in different | directories, where they refer to different locations. In the original UNIX filesystems, . and .. were real links. I don't know if that is so in current filesystems. You are not "supposed" to create links to directories. It certainly could be done. But then you've broken a rule and who knows what programs would then break (eg. find, dump). I think that fsck checks for this problem. In the original UNIX filesystem, directories were just files with a simple table in them, but marked as directories. The table was simply an array of entries like this: struct directory_entry { /* I don't remember the order of these fields */ unsigned short inode_number; char name[14]; /* note: NUL-padded, not NUL-terminated! */ }; Notice that there isn't enough information for a name to refer to a different filesystem from the one containing the directory. A hard link is just a normal directory entry. A symlink is something quite different: a file containing a path string. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 18:47:24 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:47:24 -0500 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 In-Reply-To: References: <4EE3C531.60707@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4EE79DBC.5030300@dinamis.com> On 12/11/2011 12:01 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > Well, I daresay I'm a bit suspicious that Eclipse may be one of the > "bloated" things in Java. Lotta participants, including organizations > that have some bloated systems in their histories... > > It's pretty popular, but it seems like more than Eight Megabytes And > Constantly Swapping ;-) From the Fedora wiki: <> 33 million lines of code! The mind boggles. I haven't found it to be slow or particularly piggy in terms of resource utilization. Thunderbird, Firefox, and Google Chrome are all much piggier. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 18:49:18 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:49:18 -0500 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 In-Reply-To: References: <5059869300488623270@unknownmsgid> <4EE408F0.8020102@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4EE79E2E.1090908@dinamis.com> Hi Ian, Thanks for the help. On 12/11/2011 02:11 AM, Ian Petersen wrote: > Well, in your original message you said, "I thought it could be a > missing dependency in Eclipse. That was not the case. The package > containing org.eclipse.mylyn.internal.trac.core.TracClientFactory.createClient(TracClientFactory.java:34), > which is what threw the exception, was installed." > > But it's unsurprising that the thing that threw the exception is > installed; it has to be installed for it to run, and it has to run > before it can throw an exception. The important part of the message > is the class that couldn't be found, which is > org.apache.xmlrpc.XmlRpcException. > > According to a random source I found in the first few hits on Google > (http://www.jarfinder.com/index.php/java/info/org.apache.xmlrpc.XmlRpcException), > the class that couldn't be found might come from a .jar file with > xmlrpc in the name. Looking a little further, it appears that the > central source for Apache's XML RPC implementation is at > http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc, and the download page is at > http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc/download.html. The binary archive > contains, among other things, xmlrpc-common-3.1.3.jar, which includes > a definition of XmlRpcException. I copied a few jars related to xmlrpc from the working Eclipse distro to the one that isn't working, restarted the one that wasn't working, and it made no difference. > It's been a few years since I've worked much in the Java community, > but there was nothing like what you describe for Java in general a few > years ago. Eclipse is based on a plug-in architecture, though, and it > has its own system for describing, distributing, and updating plug-ins > (which you at least got a taste of if you installed Mylyn through > Eclipse rather than yum). I don't know whether it's better to let yum > or Eclipse manage your Eclipse plug-ins. Neither do I. It's probably not good to do both. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 18:58:15 2011 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:58:15 -0800 Subject: Eclipse Adventures on Fedora 16 In-Reply-To: <4EE79E2E.1090908-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <5059869300488623270@unknownmsgid> <4EE408F0.8020102@dinamis.com> <4EE79E2E.1090908@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 10:49 AM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > I copied a few jars related to xmlrpc from the working Eclipse distro to the > one that isn't working, restarted the one that wasn't working, and it made > no difference. Well, that suggests to me that you'd need to update the non-working Eclipse's class path, too, but doing so is beyond me. If I were in your shoes, I'd give up on the not-working version and just go with the working one. Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 19:22:04 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:22:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: portable realpath In-Reply-To: References: <4EE773C2.8020103@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | In the original UNIX filesystems, . and .. were real links. I don't know | if that is so in current filesystems. | | You are not "supposed" to create links to directories. It certainly | could be done. But then you've broken a rule and who knows what | programs would then break (eg. find, dump). I think that fsck checks | for this problem. I forgot to mention: if there were additional hard links to a directory, .. would not be meaningful. Currently it means the (unique) parent directory of this directory (or the directory itself if it is the root of a filesystem). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 13 22:11:40 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:11:40 -0500 Subject: portable realpath In-Reply-To: References: <4EE773C2.8020103@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EE7CD9C.7090605@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > In the original UNIX filesystems, . and .. were real links. I don't know > if that is so in current filesystems. When I have tried creating a hard link to a directory, I get an error message stating it isn't allowed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 06:57:40 2011 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 01:57:40 -0500 Subject: "HP to Contribute webOS to Open Source" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EE848E4.7000802@ve3syb.ca> On 11-12-11 01:30 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > A press release: > I find it interesting that, on the one hand, HP supports the Linux community while at the same time produces HP branded hardware that is not supported with drivers for use in Linux (ie. some of their scanners). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 18:01:37 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:01:37 -0500 Subject: Added EPUB links to wiki Message-ID: For those that are interested, I have added links to the various tools described at last night's talk to the wiki page on the presentation. http://gtalug.org/wiki/Meetings:2011-12 The one peculiar bit is that the LibreOffice extension, Writer2EPUB, is primarily (only?) properly available from the author's web site, written in Italian. There are references on the web to stuff surrounding support.openoffice.org, but what with all the reorganizations that have taken place since Oracle took over Sun (which took over StarOffice which had become OpenOffice.org, which had to be so named due to some other OpenOffice... mumble, mumble...), such links seem to have fallen into oblivion. Luke's blog seems to be the surviving thing. I'm not sure that's quite enough infrastructure for it; it probably ought to be mirrored somewhere, but that seems out of today's scope :-). -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 18:08:23 2011 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:08:23 -0500 Subject: "HP to Contribute webOS to Open Source" In-Reply-To: <4EE848E4.7000802-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4EE848E4.7000802@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <20111214180823.GA8097@yam.witteman.ca> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 01:57:40AM -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote: >On 11-12-11 01:30 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >>A press release: >> > >I find it interesting that, on the one hand, HP supports the Linux >community while at the same time produces HP branded hardware that is >not supported with drivers for use in Linux (ie. some of their >scanners). HP is a big, big company, and they have no idea what they do and don't support as a monolithic enterprise. They have had a revolving door of CEOs, each of which hewed to the adage that an incoming CEO tries to change the company into something they think they can manage. Each CEO has tried to make big, strategic changes to the company, while at the same time trying to deflect questions/concerns about their incompetence/delusions/confusion about the market needs met and unmet/misogynism etc. The only divisions that make any sense at this point are the ones that have kept their heads down, returned quarterly profits, and were too complex (servers) or too boring (printing and scanning) for the CEO to mess (not the word I'm thinking of, but family-friendly) with. HP and Linux is a complicated relationship - just like most hardware/software/services companies and Linux. The parts of the business that really understand Linux support it, the parts that don't show it contempt, and the middle group that knows that an easy PR win can be made that might also hinder some competitors by giving away a product that would have been orphaned anyway. [If Android/Google falters by losing some mindshare to WebOS then HP/MS win - at least in theory. If it doesn't work it was still essentially a free pawn to sacrifice.] -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 20:14:04 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:14:04 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze Message-ID: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> My Debian Squeeze host stopped issuing sound through the sound card. This is not the first time. Sometimes fiddling around seems to start it again. This time nothing. Sound is one of those mysterious places in Linux that a rarely venture to. Sound card is seen: lspci 01:08.0 Multimedia audio controller: VIA Technologies Inc. ICE1712 [Envy24] PCI Multi-Channel I/O Controller (rev 02) aplay -l **** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices **** card 0: M2496 [M Audio Audiophile 24/96], device 0: ICE1712 multi [ICE1712 multi] Subdevices: 1/1 Subdevice #0: subdevice #0 Alsamixer shows all volumes are up. No channels are muted. However even simple tests produce not sound: ettin:/usr/share/alsa/cards# aplay /usr/share/bzflag/shock.wav Playing WAVE '/usr/share/bzflag/shock.wav' : Signed 16 bit Little Endian, Rate 22050 Hz, Stereo This hangs indefinitely as does this: ettin:/usr/share/alsa/cards# speaker-test speaker-test 1.0.23 Playback device is default Stream parameters are 48000Hz, S16_LE, 1 channels Using 16 octaves of pink noise Rate set to 48000Hz (requested 48000Hz) Buffer size range from 2048 to 6144 Period size range from 1024 to 1024 Using max buffer size 6144 Periods = 4 was set period_size = 1024 was set buffer_size = 6144 0 - Front Left Modules all appear to be loaded. Code: lsmod|grep snd snd_ice1712 50553 0 snd_ice17xx_ak4xxx 2108 1 snd_ice1712 snd_ak4xxx_adda 6063 2 snd_ice1712,snd_ice17xx_ak4xxx snd_cs8427 5649 1 snd_ice1712 snd_ac97_codec 99186 1 snd_ice1712 snd_pcm_oss 32607 0 snd_mixer_oss 12606 1 snd_pcm_oss snd_pcm 60487 3 snd_ice1712,snd_ac97_codec,snd_pcm_oss snd_page_alloc 6249 1 snd_pcm ac97_bus 1086 1 snd_ac97_codec snd_i2c 3362 2 snd_ice1712,snd_cs8427 snd_mpu401_uart 4995 1 snd_ice1712 snd_seq_midi 4400 0 snd_rawmidi 15515 2 snd_mpu401_uart,snd_seq_midi snd_seq_midi_event 4628 1 snd_seq_midi snd_seq 42881 2 snd_seq_midi,snd_seq_midi_event snd_timer 15598 2 snd_pcm,snd_seq snd_seq_device 4493 3 snd_seq_midi,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq snd 46526 13 snd_ice1712,snd_ak4xxx_adda,snd_cs8427,snd_ac97_codec,snd_pcm_oss,snd_mixer_oss, snd_pcm,snd_i2c,snd_mpu401_uart,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq,snd_timer,snd_seq_device soundcore 4598 1 snd I tried alsactl init but still no sound. Now I'm out of ideas. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 20:29:58 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:29:58 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111214201404.GA28616-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On 14 December 2011 15:14, Neil Watson wrote: > My Debian Squeeze host stopped issuing sound through the sound card. This is > not the first time. Sometimes fiddling around seems to start it again. This > time nothing. Sound is one of those mysterious places in Linux that a rarely > venture to. > > Sound card is seen: > lspci > 01:08.0 Multimedia audio controller: VIA Technologies Inc. ICE1712 [Envy24] > ? PCI Multi-Channel I/O Controller (rev 02) > > aplay -l > **** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices **** > card 0: M2496 [M Audio Audiophile 24/96], device 0: ICE1712 multi [ICE1712 > multi] > ?Subdevices: 1/1 > ?Subdevice #0: subdevice #0 > > > Alsamixer shows all volumes are up. No channels are muted. However even > simple > tests produce not sound: > > ettin:/usr/share/alsa/cards# aplay /usr/share/bzflag/shock.wav > Playing WAVE '/usr/share/bzflag/shock.wav' : Signed 16 bit Little Endian, > Rate 22050 Hz, Stereo > > This hangs indefinitely as does this: > > ettin:/usr/share/alsa/cards# speaker-test > > speaker-test 1.0.23 > > Playback device is default > Stream parameters are 48000Hz, S16_LE, 1 channels > Using 16 octaves of pink noise > Rate set to 48000Hz (requested 48000Hz) > Buffer size range from 2048 to 6144 > Period size range from 1024 to 1024 > Using max buffer size 6144 > Periods = 4 > was set period_size = 1024 > was set buffer_size = 6144 > 0 - Front Left > > Modules all appear to be loaded. > Code: > lsmod|grep snd > snd_ice1712 ? ? ? ? ? ?50553 ?0 > snd_ice17xx_ak4xxx ? ? ?2108 ?1 snd_ice1712 > snd_ak4xxx_adda ? ? ? ? 6063 ?2 snd_ice1712,snd_ice17xx_ak4xxx > snd_cs8427 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?5649 ?1 snd_ice1712 > snd_ac97_codec ? ? ? ? 99186 ?1 snd_ice1712 > snd_pcm_oss ? ? ? ? ? ?32607 ?0 > snd_mixer_oss ? ? ? ? ?12606 ?1 snd_pcm_oss > snd_pcm ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?60487 ?3 snd_ice1712,snd_ac97_codec,snd_pcm_oss > snd_page_alloc ? ? ? ? ?6249 ?1 snd_pcm > ac97_bus ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1086 ?1 snd_ac97_codec > snd_i2c ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3362 ?2 snd_ice1712,snd_cs8427 > snd_mpu401_uart ? ? ? ? 4995 ?1 snd_ice1712 > snd_seq_midi ? ? ? ? ? ?4400 ?0 > snd_rawmidi ? ? ? ? ? ?15515 ?2 snd_mpu401_uart,snd_seq_midi > snd_seq_midi_event ? ? ?4628 ?1 snd_seq_midi > snd_seq ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?42881 ?2 snd_seq_midi,snd_seq_midi_event > snd_timer ? ? ? ? ? ? ?15598 ?2 snd_pcm,snd_seq > snd_seq_device ? ? ? ? ?4493 ?3 snd_seq_midi,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq > snd ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?46526 ?13 > snd_ice1712,snd_ak4xxx_adda,snd_cs8427,snd_ac97_codec,snd_pcm_oss,snd_mixer_oss, > > snd_pcm,snd_i2c,snd_mpu401_uart,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq,snd_timer,snd_seq_device > soundcore ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4598 ?1 snd > > I tried alsactl init but still no sound. Now I'm out of ideas. I'd suggest booting Knoppix (or something similar) and testing sound there. My guess is that your hardware is fine - I've had enough issues like the one you're seeing to feel your pain. Debugging sound problems has always been one of the least satisfactory and least consistent problem behaviours I've ever encountered in Linux. But if sound works in Knoppix at least you'll know that it _can_ be fixed and isn't a hardware problem. You haven't upgraded to a different kernel recently have you? -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 20:35:21 2011 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:35:21 -0500 Subject: GTALUG Position on Bill C11? Message-ID: <4EE90889.209@gmail.com> Hello Everyone, C-11 is The Canadian Government's most recent attempt to live up to their promise to support the WIPO treaty of 1996. It's similar to the previous attempt of Bill C-32, and the one before that, C-60. With some exceptions, for GTALUG C11 seems mostly okay. Canada has agreed to fulfill obligations of the 1996 treaty. If we oppose all changes to the current copyright law, we may in the future be presented with something as ugly as what they have down South. GTALUG PAC would like to present a constructive message to our representatives about GTALUG's position on C-11. As a member of GTALUG, how does C-11 affect you? Are there particular concerns which are not being addressed or protected? Two concerns were identified by the GTALUG PAC: For digital locks: the right to open digital locks to research the origin of software so as to uncover suspected acts of copyright infringement *must* be ensured. -- The GPL uses copyright to ensure that the works we share are always shared. Digital locks could hide modified and redistributed works. If it is impossible or illegal to break those digital locks to research a suspected act of infringement, it could mean that it is impossible to identify or prove infringement of your rights. C-11 notice-and-notice provisions: these have measures for alleged copyright holders to require service providers to forward notifications of alleged copyright infringement to their customers. There needs to be a protection from abuse of this system. Fees might be one way to do this, however, 41.26 section 2 makes it unclear as to whether service providers will be able to pass fees on to the alleged copyright holders who may be abusing the system. For this to work, a maximum fee needs to be set at the time of legislation. Are there other concerns in the proposed amendments in the copyright act? Thanks for any input, -Mike (and the GTALUG PAC) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 20:39:13 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:39:13 -0500 Subject: Added EPUB links to wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can I just say that epubcheck is your friend the first few times you make one? Seriously. It catches all the structural errors. It's a 'lint' for the format. I don't know how many times I ran it (on a train journey from Toronto to Ottawa) to make this: http://scruss.com/carp/Augustus_Carp.epub -- http://scruss.com/blog/ - 73 de VA3PID -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 20:39:41 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:39:41 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111214203941.GA29144@watson-wilson.ca> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 03:29:58PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: >You haven't upgraded to a different kernel recently have you? No upgrades recently. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 21:31:53 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:31:53 -0500 Subject: GTALUG Position on Bill C11? In-Reply-To: <4EE90889.209-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EE90889.209@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Mike Kallies wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > C-11 is The Canadian Government's most recent attempt to live up to > their promise to support the WIPO treaty of 1996. ?It's similar to the > previous attempt of Bill C-32, and the one before that, C-60. ?With some > exceptions, for GTALUG C11 seems mostly okay. > > Canada has agreed to fulfill obligations of the 1996 treaty. ?If we > oppose all changes to the current copyright law, we may in the future be > presented with something as ugly as what they have down South. ?GTALUG > PAC would like to present a constructive message to our representatives > about GTALUG's position on C-11. > > As a member of GTALUG, how does C-11 affect you? ?Are there particular > concerns which are not being addressed or protected? > > Two concerns were identified by the GTALUG PAC: > > For digital locks: ?the right to open digital locks to research the > origin of software so as to uncover suspected acts of copyright > infringement *must* be ensured. -- ?The GPL uses copyright to ensure > that the works we share are always shared. ?Digital locks could hide > modified and redistributed works. ?If it is impossible or illegal to > break those digital locks to research a suspected act of infringement, > it could mean that it is impossible to identify or prove infringement of > your rights. > > C-11 notice-and-notice provisions: ?these have measures for alleged > copyright holders to require service providers to forward notifications > of alleged copyright infringement to their customers. ?There needs to be > a protection from abuse of this system. ? Fees might be one way to do > this, however, 41.26 section 2 makes it unclear as to whether service > providers will be able to pass fees on to the alleged copyright holders > who may be abusing the system. ?For this to work, a maximum fee needs to > be set at the time of legislation. My view is that we need to be more concerned about a minimum fee rather than a maximum fee, What we don't want is an abusive rights holder (or rights claimant) with very deep pockets from being able to view the maximum fee as a cost of doing business. In other words a rights holder or claimant needs to know that abuses will cost at least $X and could get so high as to be punishing regardless as to how much money they have. > Are there other concerns in the proposed amendments in the copyright act? > > Thanks for any input, > > -Mike (and the GTALUG PAC) > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 21:43:16 2011 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:43:16 -0500 Subject: portable realpath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EE91874.2090909@ve3syb.ca> Not sure if this was already sent or was stuck in my drafts folder. > Anyone knows a portable way to get realpath, ie, the canonical file name of > a symbolic link? There is an program called 'realpath'. Is that portable (ie. "apt-get install realpath")? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 22:05:30 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:05:30 -0500 Subject: iscsiadm assistance - Changing the size of iet based target Message-ID: Afternoon pal I am trying to extend the size of a logical volume and I have encountered a problem where the the iscsi server do not seem to notice the change of the logical volume and continue to advertise the old logical volume size. This is how I approached it:- >From the initiator 1) Unmounted the device on the iscisi initiator umount /dev/sde1 2) Disconnected the target from the initiator iscsiadm --mode node --targetname iqn.2010-01.com.example:server1.synstor2.fileshares.example-lun-9 --portal 10.2.3.75:3260 --logout >From the target 1) Kill existing iscsi session from the initiator by first finding it and the using parameters under proc to kill the session cat /proc/net/iet/session ietadm --op delete --tid=36 --sid=15762599018562048 --cid=0 2) Delete the advertised LUN from the RAM ietadm --op delete --tid=36 --lun=55 3) Delete the target ID from RAM ietadm --op delete --tid=36 (Fails by the way, saying the "device is busy" 4) Extend the logical volume lvextend -L90G /dev/FileShares/Testing (This is supposed to change the volume from 80 GB to 90 GB) When I type lvdisplay, I can see that the lvextend has run successfully 5) ?Create the target ID again ietadm --op new --tid=2 --lun=1 --params Path=/dev/vg01/vol1,Type=blockio 6) Then, on the initiator side, I connect back to the target iscsiadm --mode node --targetname iqn.2010-01.com.example:server1.synstor2.fileshares.example-lun-9 --portal 10.2.3.75:3260 ?--login 7) Mount the devices mount -av 8) Extend the file system xfs_growfs /media/store/example However, the filesize do not change, and this look like its because the iscsi target still advertise the LUN as 80 GB instead of 90 GB. Any one know of a way of making iet notice the change short of restarting the target? ?I am not able to do that as there is a lot of initiators using this target and would all be affected Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 22:44:01 2011 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:44:01 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111214201404.GA28616-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > My Debian Squeeze host stopped issuing sound through the sound card. This is > not the first time. Sometimes fiddling around seems to start it again. This > time nothing. Sound is one of those mysterious places in Linux that a rarely > venture to. Do you have any pulseaudio packages installed (or were dragged in as dependencies)? Sometimes pulseaudio and alsa can step on each other in strange ways. -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 22:59:05 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:59:05 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111214225905.GA27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 05:44:01PM -0500, Daniel Wayne Armstrong wrote: > Do you have any pulseaudio packages installed (or were dragged in as > dependencies)? Sometimes pulseaudio and alsa can step on each other in > strange ways. Alsa talks to hardware, pulseaudio talks to alsa. Pulse audio sometimes gets in the way of programs that expect to talk to alsa directly, but other than that they can not step on each other since one essentially uses the other. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 14 23:28:42 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:28:42 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111214232842.GA31558@watson-wilson.ca> Pulse Audio is not installed. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 03:32:22 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:32:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: GTALUG Position on Bill C11? In-Reply-To: <4EE90889.209-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EE90889.209@gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Mike Kallies | Are there other concerns in the proposed amendments in the copyright act? DRM should not prevent otherwise authorised (by copyright legislation) acts. That's pretty simple and obvious. But in the current weird world, that's radical! If DRM does prevent authorised uses, the work should lose copyright protection. After all, copyright is a bargain, and if one side breaks the bargain, why should the other side be constrained by it. Again, this sensible position is probably considered radical. Breaking DRM to perform otherwise authorised acts should be perfectly legal. I don't think that that could be considered radical. Think of DRM as self-defence for copyright holders. As a legal defence, self-defence only works when you are defending your rights, not claiming otherwise non-existent rights -- that's called assault, robbery, or some other tort. ================ DRM, if it is effective, will effectively prevent works falling into the public domain when the copyright term expires. To prevent this failure, DRM users should be required to put DRM unlocking tools in escrow (or perhaps a new government institution). Since the unlocking tools would only be used (and hence tested) long after the producer has gone, it would be easy to place a sham tool in escrow. The escrow institution must have and use an effective test protocol to prevent bogus tools being registered. Many in our community think that the right to break DRM is sufficient (but C-11 doesn't even allow that). That's only true if DRM is easy enough to break. I'm not sure that DRM will always be easy to break, nor should the obligation be on the users. ================ The only reason my proposals seem radical is they prevent the land-grab that is contemplated by DRM proponents. This land-grab has not been announced, so it would be interesting to see how they frame any objection. DRM allows very fine-grained control of the use of works. I think that this is antithetical to conventional copyright. The First Sale doctrine shows this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 16:42:35 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:42:35 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111214201404.GA28616-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> Some research indicated that installing Pulseaudio might help. I did so. However sound still eludes me. This is the most frustrating Linux issue I have ever had. There seems to be no configuration tools to help troubleshoot. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 17:06:53 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 12:06:53 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111215164235.GA3778-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:42:35AM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > Some research indicated that installing Pulseaudio might help. I did > so. However sound still eludes me. This is the most frustrating Linux > issue I have ever had. There seems to be no configuration tools to help > troubleshoot. Does /proc/asound/cards show it as detected? Does alsamixer show master and pcm and such as being non zero volume and not muted? Does 'aplay' work? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 17:39:18 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 12:39:18 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111215170653.GB27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:06:53PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >Does /proc/asound/cards show it as detected? 0 [M2496 ]: ICE1712 - M Audio Audiophile 24/96 M Audio Audiophile 24/96 at 0xdc00, irq 18 >Does alsamixer show master and pcm and such as being non zero volume >and not muted? Alsamixer looks good to me. >Does 'aplay' work? Can you define work? ettin:/etc/pulse# aplay ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:1018:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave aplay: main:654: audio open error: Device or resource busy ettin:/etc/pulse# !fuse fuser -v /dev/snd/* /dev/dsp* USER PID ACCESS COMMAND /dev/dsp: neil 3559 F.... wfica ettin:/etc/pulse# fuser -v /dev/snd/* /dev/dsp* ettin:/etc/pulse# aplay From there is just hangs and I hear now sound. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 17:52:08 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 12:52:08 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111215173918.GA5070-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111215175208.GC27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:39:18PM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:06:53PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >Does /proc/asound/cards show it as detected? > > 0 [M2496 ]: ICE1712 - M Audio Audiophile 24/96 > M Audio Audiophile 24/96 at 0xdc00, irq 18 > > >Does alsamixer show master and pcm and such as being non zero volume > >and not muted? > > Alsamixer looks good to me. > > >Does 'aplay' work? > > Can you define work? > > ettin:/etc/pulse# aplay > ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:1018:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave > aplay: main:654: audio open error: Device or resource busy > ettin:/etc/pulse# !fuse > fuser -v /dev/snd/* /dev/dsp* > USER PID ACCESS COMMAND > /dev/dsp: neil 3559 F.... wfica > ettin:/etc/pulse# fuser -v /dev/snd/* /dev/dsp* > ettin:/etc/pulse# aplay > > From there is just hangs and I hear now sound. aplay some.wav What was PID 3559? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 18:10:40 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:10:40 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111215175208.GC27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215175208.GC27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111215181040.GA5991@watson-wilson.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:52:08PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >aplay some.wav aplay /usr/share/bzflag/shock.wav Playing WAVE '/usr/share/bzflag/shock.wav' : Signed 16 bit Little Endian, Rate 22050 Hz, Stereo No sound and does not return the prompt. >What was PID 3559? Citrix client for a remote desktop. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 19:41:37 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:41:37 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111215181040.GA5991-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215175208.GC27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215181040.GA5991@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111215194137.GD27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 01:10:40PM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:52:08PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > >aplay some.wav > > aplay /usr/share/bzflag/shock.wav > Playing WAVE '/usr/share/bzflag/shock.wav' : Signed 16 bit Little > Endian, Rate 22050 Hz, Stereo > > No sound and does not return the prompt. > > >What was PID 3559? > > Citrix client for a remote desktop. It might be hogging the sound device and preventing anything else from using it. But it could also be something else. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 19:52:22 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:52:22 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111215194137.GD27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215175208.GC27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215181040.GA5991@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215194137.GD27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111215195222.GA7948@watson-wilson.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 02:41:37PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> Citrix client for a remote desktop. > >It might be hogging the sound device and preventing anything else from >using it. Even if I turn it off the problem persists. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 20:02:18 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:02:18 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111215195222.GA7948-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215175208.GC27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215181040.GA5991@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215194137.GD27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215195222.GA7948@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111215200218.GE27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 02:52:22PM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 02:41:37PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >>Citrix client for a remote desktop. > > > >It might be hogging the sound device and preventing anything else from > >using it. > > Even if I turn it off the problem persists. The speakers are plugged in right? To the right jack? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 15 20:07:02 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:07:02 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111215200218.GE27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215175208.GC27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215181040.GA5991@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215194137.GD27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215195222.GA7948@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215200218.GE27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111215200702.GA10180@watson-wilson.ca> Update. I purged and reinstalled Alsa. Now alsa does give me sound. Pulseaudio still not working. Pavucontrol shows there is output going on via the bottom bouncing monitor. However no sound comes through Amarok which is configured to use pulsaudio. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 15:12:50 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 10:12:50 -0500 Subject: More Raspberry Pi stuff... Message-ID: For those who have not been following the Raspberry Pi let me just note that we are talking a single board Linux computer that will (they are not shipping quite yet) cost (depending on model) $25 - $35 (US) each. The Raspberry Pi by itself is a very interesting machine, but it looks like it will be getting even more interesting, as the first add-on Arduino style shield card has been announced for the Raspberry Pi: http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/411 . Now things get REALLY interesting! Before I was looking at the Raspberry Pi as a replacement for low-end PCs, but now it can also be looked at as a replacement for jobs that would be a stretch for an Arduino to do... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 15:41:47 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 10:41:47 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111215173918.GA5070-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111216154147.GA21142@watson-wilson.ca> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:39:18PM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: >ettin:/etc/pulse# aplay >ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:1018:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave >aplay: main:654: audio open error: Device or resource busy >ettin:/etc/pulse# !fuse >fuser -v /dev/snd/* /dev/dsp* > USER PID ACCESS COMMAND >/dev/dsp: neil 3559 F.... wfica After further testing I think this is the problem. This is the Citrix remote client. When it is running Alsa seems to be broken which in turn breaks Pulseaudio. Now to think of some way to fix it. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 15:47:29 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 10:47:29 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111216154147.GA21142-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> <20111216154147.GA21142@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111216154729.GF27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 10:41:47AM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:39:18PM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > >ettin:/etc/pulse# aplay > >ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:1018:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave > >aplay: main:654: audio open error: Device or resource busy > >ettin:/etc/pulse# !fuse > >fuser -v /dev/snd/* /dev/dsp* > > USER PID ACCESS COMMAND > >/dev/dsp: neil 3559 F.... wfica > > After further testing I think this is the problem. This is the Citrix > remote client. When it is running Alsa seems to be broken which in turn > breaks Pulseaudio. Now to think of some way to fix it. You can create an asoundrc file that makes pulseaudio the default audio device for alsa using programs. After all if the citrix client hogs alsa, pulseaudio (and hence just about everything else) has no way to use it. A google search should find recipes for doing this. What I am using is: lennartsorensen at lennartsorensen:~$ cat .pulse/client.conf autospawn = no (This for some reason helped let pulseaudio start properly). I thought I had created a .asoundrc file as well, but apparently in the end I didn't. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 19:58:13 2011 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:58:13 -0500 Subject: GTALUG Position on Bill C11? In-Reply-To: References: <4EE90889.209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111216195813.GT32262@adb.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Many in our community think that the right to break DRM is sufficient > (but C-11 doesn't even allow that). That's only true if DRM is easy > enough to break. I'm not sure that DRM will always be easy to break, > nor should the obligation be on the users. On the one hand, it's the creator's content to create and release as they see fit, and if they want to release it only in DRM'ed format that's their preogative. However, the fact that this pushes the user into an overly-simplified use model, and the fact that they assert that anyone whose needs go outside the walled garden _must_ be an Evil Pirate and couldn't possibly have any good purpose is odious. Entrenching anti-circumvention into law merely adds teeth to what is already an ugly monster. Although I have a fairly good opinion of my technical skills and could likely breach DRM if I turned my mind to it, I choose not to do so. I have better things to do than dig through arbitrary roadblocks, would not enjoy "entertainment" from people I disrespect, and have a limited discretionary budget that could go instead toward unlocked content, woodworking tools, outdoor gear, a bottle of good Scotch, or whatever. Buying DRM'ed content sends the makers a message that it's good and they should do more of it; this is an especially stupid thing to do if you're going to break that DRM. I'd rather simply boycott such products, ignore them and consider their cultural memes irrelevant, and counsel others to do likewise. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 20:09:44 2011 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:09:44 -0800 Subject: More Raspberry Pi stuff... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: when somebody gets one of these, please let the group know how it goes, I'd love to hear about it. On Dec 16, 2011 7:13 AM, "Colin McGregor" wrote: > For those who have not been following the Raspberry Pi let me just > note that we are talking a single board Linux computer that will (they > are not shipping quite yet) cost (depending on model) $25 - $35 (US) > each. > > The Raspberry Pi by itself is a very interesting machine, but it looks > like it will be getting even more interesting, as the first add-on > Arduino style shield card has been announced for the Raspberry Pi: > http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/411 . Now things get REALLY > interesting! Before I was looking at the Raspberry Pi as a replacement > for low-end PCs, but now it can also be looked at as a replacement for > jobs that would be a stretch for an Arduino to do... > > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 01:00:31 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:00:31 -0500 Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth Message-ID: Completely unrelated, but so astounding I can't help myself: http://www.rimmell.com/bbc/news.htm -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 01:11:16 2011 From: chipmand-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (DAVID CHIPMAN) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 17:11:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1324084276.34888.YahooMailNeo@web88606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Thomas Milne To: tlug Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:00:31 PM Subject: [TLUG]: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth Completely unrelated, but so astounding I can't help myself: http://www.rimmell.com/bbc/news.htm -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists April Fools! -David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 02:45:14 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 21:45:14 -0500 Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EEC023A.9060308@rogers.com> Thomas Milne wrote: > Completely unrelated, but so astounding I can't help myself: > > http://www.rimmell.com/bbc/news.htm > Where's Jodi Foster when you need her? BTW, did you notice the date on that article? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 03:54:10 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:54:10 -0500 Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth In-Reply-To: <4EEC023A.9060308-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4EEC023A.9060308@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:45 PM, James Knott wrote: > Thomas Milne wrote: >> >> Completely unrelated, but so astounding I can't help myself: >> >> http://www.rimmell.com/bbc/news.htm >> > > Where's Jodi Foster when you need her? > > BTW, did you notice the date on that article? ?;-) > Not only that, but the URL isn't even BBC. Got me good. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 04:13:25 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 23:13:25 -0500 Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth In-Reply-To: References: <4EEC023A.9060308@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EEC16E5.3090608@rogers.com> Thomas Milne wrote: > Not only that, but the URL isn't even BBC. > > Got me good. Not only that, but if aliens actually watched some of those TV shows, they'd conclude there was no intelligent life here. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 04:14:43 2011 From: aimass-EzYyMjUkBrFWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Alejandro Imass) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 23:14:43 -0500 Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth In-Reply-To: <4EEC16E5.3090608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4EEC023A.9060308@rogers.com> <4EEC16E5.3090608@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:13 PM, James Knott wrote: > Thomas Milne wrote: >> >> Not only that, but the URL isn't even BBC. >> >> Got me good. > > > Not only that, but if aliens actually watched some of those TV shows, they'd > conclude there was no intelligent life here. ?;-) Disagree. Classic Dr. Who was awesome! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 14:01:18 2011 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 09:01:18 -0500 Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth In-Reply-To: <1324084276.34888.YahooMailNeo-VEVLQIUYP3avYMxfvLqCK1Z8N9CAUha/QQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <1324084276.34888.YahooMailNeo@web88606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EECA0AE.7000508@the-wire.com> On 12/16/2011 08:11 PM, DAVID CHIPMAN wrote: > > *From:* Thomas Milne > **Completely unrelated, but so astounding I can't help myself: > http://www.rimmell.com/bbc/news.htm > > April Fools! A lucky thing. Imagine the Intellectual Property issues! Mel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 17 20:00:45 2011 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:00:45 -0500 Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth In-Reply-To: <4EECA0AE.7000508-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <1324084276.34888.YahooMailNeo@web88606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EECA0AE.7000508@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <4EECF4ED.1020206@ve3syb.ca> On 11-12-17 09:01 AM, Mel Wilson wrote: > A lucky thing. Imagine the Intellectual Property issues! yeah, but it would have been nice if meant the BBC could have obtained more of the missing episodes of Dr. Who. :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 18 21:32:39 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 16:32:39 -0500 Subject: (info) RAID5 root, 3TB Harddisk Message-ID: <20111218213239.GA7027@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi All, Now that I'm between courses, I was able to do few things from my TODO list. 1. Mounting RAID5 as / (root). ------------------------------ This required "initrd" and separate /boot partition. I'm using 256MB USB stick as /boot. When computer boots, it loads kernel and initrd.gz from the USB stick. Then, it brings up RAID5 as /dev/md0, and "switch_root" to that. So, I only have /dev/md0 as /. Before, I used to have separate partitions for / (real disk) and /home (RAID5). Nothing wrong with that, but less partitions means less maintenance. 2. 3TB Hardisk = $149.99 ------------------------ TigerDirect is selling Hitache 3TB USB 2.0 external harddisk for $149.99. I bought one today, and doing "dd" right now. I don't smell any burning plastic... yet. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 05:17:04 2011 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 00:17:04 -0500 Subject: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick Message-ID: <20111219051704.GA19697@yam.witteman.ca> I've got an nice clean image of a USB stick on my hard drive. I'm pretty sure there is still data on it - stings returns *oodles* of stuff. The problem is that there is no partition table on this thing - gpart says that there are no partitions. So, I can't mount the image (or the stick) 'cause there are no partitions. I'm pretty sure it was a FAT32 stick, so I'd love to somehow replace the partition table on the image I've got and see if I can pull off some of that data. Anyone have a set of documents for this? I've found lots of almost-useful information, including some really old docs, but nothing that says "do this!" for my situation. Thanks! -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 07:13:21 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 02:13:21 -0500 Subject: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick In-Reply-To: <20111219051704.GA19697-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219051704.GA19697@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20111219071321.GA4870@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:17:04AM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > I've got an nice clean image of a USB stick on my hard drive. I'm > pretty sure there is still data on it - stings returns *oodles* of > stuff. The problem is that there is no partition table on this thing - > gpart says that there are no partitions. > > So, I can't mount the image (or the stick) 'cause there are no > partitions. I'm pretty sure it was a FAT32 stick, so I'd love to > somehow replace the partition table on the image I've got and see if I > can pull off some of that data. > > Anyone have a set of documents for this? I've found lots of > almost-useful information, including some really old docs, but nothing > that says "do this!" for my situation. > > Thanks! Odd that it doesn't have partition table. Windows always creates the first partition. Unless it was created from Linux to use the whole device. In any case, you can take a peek into the image: # losetup usb.img -- check /proc/partition to see that "loop0" is created # fdisk -u -l /dev/loop0 -- if you see partitions, say loop0p1, then create loop device for that. Calculate the offset into the first partition, like # losetup usb.img -o $((2048*512)) -- check /proc/partitions to see "loop1" # mount /dev/loop1 /mnt -- if you don't see partition, then it's probably using the whole device. Then, just mount it. # mount /dev/loop0 /mnt # losetup -d /dev/loop0 # losetup -d /dev/loop1 -- delete the loop devices -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 07:46:46 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 02:46:46 -0500 Subject: Video playback problem solved Message-ID: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> Several days ago, I was trying to solve the problem of stuttering video playback on an older Dell (manufactured August 2007), on which I had just installed Gentoo. The PC wasn't capable of handling 1080i streaming video from my HDHomerun TV tuner. The answer did *NOT* involve getting a video card. I finally discovered the solution, after an incredible saga of thud and blunder... * the Gentoo x86 install CD must use lowest-common-denominator basic i686 instructions, in order to work on every x86 machine. That's what the CD puts on the machine during the install process. That very basic code doesn't have sse2, sse3 (aka pni), ssse3, and various other advanced instructions. Decoding video streams is a heavy-duty number crunching job, and the CPU couldn't do it with one arm tied behind its back. * when I emerged system and world (i.e. rebuilt the OS and programs), all the source code was compiled with the CFLAGS that I specified. Now, the machine not only handles 1080i using the onboard Intel GPU, it handles 1080p flawlessly. I downloaded a short 1080p video clip from Youtube to test on, because my 5-megabit ADSL connection couldn't stream it realtime. So yes, Gentoo's optimization does make a difference. The onboard GPU shows up in lspci as... "Intel Corporation 82G33/G31 Express Integrated Graphics Controller" and the cpu is a Core2 (*NOT* a Core2 Duo) with 2 cores that show up under /proc/cpuinfo as... vendor_id : GenuineIntel cpu family : 6 model : 15 model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU 2140 @ 1.60GHz stepping : 2 cpu MHz : 1595.987 cache size : 1024 KB physical id : 0 siblings : 2 A 4+ year old system is saved from the scrap heap. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 08:11:08 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 03:11:08 -0500 Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: <20111219074646.GB22397-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111219081108.GA5062@node1.opengeometry.net> Couldn't you just re-compiled the decoding program? -- William On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 02:46:46AM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > Several days ago, I was trying to solve the problem of stuttering > video playback on an older Dell (manufactured August 2007), on which I > had just installed Gentoo. The PC wasn't capable of handling 1080i > streaming video from my HDHomerun TV tuner. The answer did *NOT* > involve getting a video card. I finally discovered the solution, after > an incredible saga of thud and blunder... > > * the Gentoo x86 install CD must use lowest-common-denominator basic > i686 instructions, in order to work on every x86 machine. That's what > the CD puts on the machine during the install process. That very > basic code doesn't have sse2, sse3 (aka pni), ssse3, and various other > advanced instructions. Decoding video streams is a heavy-duty number > crunching job, and the CPU couldn't do it with one arm tied behind its > back. > > * when I emerged system and world (i.e. rebuilt the OS and programs), > all the source code was compiled with the CFLAGS that I specified. > Now, the machine not only handles 1080i using the onboard Intel GPU, > it handles 1080p flawlessly. I downloaded a short 1080p video clip > from Youtube to test on, because my 5-megabit ADSL connection couldn't > stream it realtime. > > So yes, Gentoo's optimization does make a difference. The onboard > GPU shows up in lspci as... > > "Intel Corporation 82G33/G31 Express Integrated Graphics Controller" > > and the cpu is a Core2 (*NOT* a Core2 Duo) with 2 cores that show up > under /proc/cpuinfo as... > > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family : 6 > model : 15 > model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU 2140 @ 1.60GHz > stepping : 2 > cpu MHz : 1595.987 > cache size : 1024 KB > physical id : 0 > siblings : 2 > > A 4+ year old system is saved from the scrap heap. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 13:07:41 2011 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:07:41 -0500 Subject: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick In-Reply-To: <20111219071321.GA4870-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219051704.GA19697@yam.witteman.ca> <20111219071321.GA4870@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20111219130740.GA24036@yam.witteman.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 02:13:21AM -0500, William Park wrote: >On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:17:04AM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >> I've got an nice clean image of a USB stick on my hard drive. I'm >> pretty sure there is still data on it - stings returns *oodles* of >> stuff. The problem is that there is no partition table on this thing - >> gpart says that there are no partitions. >> >> So, I can't mount the image (or the stick) 'cause there are no >> partitions. I'm pretty sure it was a FAT32 stick, so I'd love to >> somehow replace the partition table on the image I've got and see if I >> can pull off some of that data. >> >> Anyone have a set of documents for this? I've found lots of >> almost-useful information, including some really old docs, but nothing >> that says "do this!" for my situation. >> >> Thanks! > >Odd that it doesn't have partition table. Windows always creates the >first partition. Unless it was created from Linux to use the whole >device. In any case, you can take a peek into the image: > > # losetup usb.img > -- check /proc/partition to see that "loop0" is created Here's where it breaks down, like this: loop: can't get info on device usb.img: Inappropriate ioctl for device Am I hosed? -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 14:08:03 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:08:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: <20111219074646.GB22397-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | and the cpu is a Core2 (*NOT* a Core2 Duo) with 2 cores that show up | under /proc/cpuinfo as... | | vendor_id : GenuineIntel | cpu family : 6 | model : 15 | model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU 2140 @ 1.60GHz | stepping : 2 | cpu MHz : 1595.987 | cache size : 1024 KB | physical id : 0 | siblings : 2 Do you mean "Core Duo (*NOT* a Core 2 Duo)"? The "2" refers to the generation (more or less) while the "Duo" refers to the number of cores. Your machine seems to have two cores ("siblings : 2"). You didn't include the "flags" line which might have cleared this up. If I'm correct, your processor will be 32-bits only. Look for the flag "lm" for "long mode". I don't have that many intel boxes to test. My Core 2 Quad Q66 has this entry in procinfo (essentially repeated 4 times): processor : 0 vendor_id : GenuineIntel cpu family : 6 model : 15 model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz stepping : 11 cpu MHz : 1600.000 cache size : 4096 KB physical id : 0 siblings : 4 core id : 0 cpu cores : 4 apicid : 0 initial apicid : 0 fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 10 wp : yes flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl aperfmperf pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm lahf_lm dts tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority bogomips : 4799.72 clflush size : 64 cache_alignment : 64 address sizes : 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual power management: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 14:55:21 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:55:21 -0500 Subject: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick In-Reply-To: <20111219071321.GA4870-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219051704.GA19697@yam.witteman.ca> <20111219071321.GA4870@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20111219145521.GG27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 02:13:21AM -0500, William Park wrote: > Odd that it doesn't have partition table. Windows always creates the > first partition. Unless it was created from Linux to use the whole > device. In any case, you can take a peek into the image: > > # losetup usb.img > -- check /proc/partition to see that "loop0" is created > > # fdisk -u -l /dev/loop0 > -- if you see partitions, say loop0p1, then create loop device > for that. Calculate the offset into the first partition, like > # losetup usb.img -o $((2048*512)) > -- check /proc/partitions to see "loop1" > # mount /dev/loop1 /mnt > > -- if you don't see partition, then it's probably using the > whole device. Then, just mount it. > # mount /dev/loop0 /mnt > > # losetup -d /dev/loop0 > # losetup -d /dev/loop1 > -- delete the loop devices Simpler yet: modprobe -r losetup modprobe losetup max_parts=16 Now you get /dev/loopXpY devices for whatever partition table your image has. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 14:56:23 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:56:23 -0500 Subject: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick In-Reply-To: <20111219130740.GA24036-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219051704.GA19697@yam.witteman.ca> <20111219071321.GA4870@node1.opengeometry.net> <20111219130740.GA24036@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20111219145623.GH27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:07:41AM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 02:13:21AM -0500, William Park wrote: > >On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:17:04AM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > >> I've got an nice clean image of a USB stick on my hard drive. I'm > >> pretty sure there is still data on it - stings returns *oodles* of > >> stuff. The problem is that there is no partition table on this thing - > >> gpart says that there are no partitions. > >> > >> So, I can't mount the image (or the stick) 'cause there are no > >> partitions. I'm pretty sure it was a FAT32 stick, so I'd love to > >> somehow replace the partition table on the image I've got and see if I > >> can pull off some of that data. > >> > >> Anyone have a set of documents for this? I've found lots of > >> almost-useful information, including some really old docs, but nothing > >> that says "do this!" for my situation. > >> > >> Thanks! > > > >Odd that it doesn't have partition table. Windows always creates the > >first partition. Unless it was created from Linux to use the whole > >device. In any case, you can take a peek into the image: > > > > # losetup usb.img > > -- check /proc/partition to see that "loop0" is created > > Here's where it breaks down, like this: > > loop: can't get info on device usb.img: Inappropriate ioctl for > device > > Am I hosed? losetup /dev/loop0 usb.img or losetup -f usb.img -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 14:56:41 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 06:56:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick In-Reply-To: <20111219130740.GA24036-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219051704.GA19697@yam.witteman.ca> <20111219071321.GA4870@node1.opengeometry.net> <20111219130740.GA24036@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <1324306601.53827.YahooMailNeo@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Are you "root"? -- >________________________________ > From: William O'Higgins Witteman >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 8:07:41 AM >Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick > >On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 02:13:21AM -0500, William Park wrote: >>On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:17:04AM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >>> I've got an nice clean image of a USB stick on my hard drive.? I'm >>> pretty sure there is still data on it - stings returns *oodles* of >>> stuff.? The problem is that there is no partition table on this thing - >>> gpart says that there are no partitions. >>> >>> So, I can't mount the image (or the stick) 'cause there are no >>> partitions.? I'm pretty sure it was a FAT32 stick, so I'd love to >>> somehow replace the partition table on the image I've got and see if I >>> can pull off some of that data. >>> >>> Anyone have a set of documents for this?? I've found lots of >>> almost-useful information, including some really old docs, but nothing >>> that says "do this!" for my situation. >>> >>> Thanks! >> >>Odd that it doesn't have partition table.? Windows always creates the >>first partition.? Unless it was created from Linux to use the whole >>device.? In any case, you can take a peek into the image: >> >>? ? # losetup usb.img >>??? -- check /proc/partition to see that "loop0" is created > >Here's where it breaks down, like this: > >loop: can't get info on device usb.img: Inappropriate ioctl for >device > >Am I hosed? >-- > >yours, > >William > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 14:59:41 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:59:41 -0500 Subject: OT: Solaris 11 kernel source leaked Message-ID: <4EEF515D.2020905@utoronto.ca> Saw this on the OpenIndiana list, it looks like someone has uploaded a copy of the full Solaris 11 kernel to some filesharing sites: http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?65756-Solaris-11-source-code-leaked http://news.softpedia.com/news/Oracle-Solaris-11-Kernel-Source-Leaked-241597.shtml I wonder how Oracle will respond, if at all, especially since it sounds like most files are CDDL licensed. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 15:00:22 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:00:22 -0500 Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: <20111219074646.GB22397-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111219150022.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 02:46:46AM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > Several days ago, I was trying to solve the problem of stuttering > video playback on an older Dell (manufactured August 2007), on which I > had just installed Gentoo. The PC wasn't capable of handling 1080i > streaming video from my HDHomerun TV tuner. The answer did *NOT* > involve getting a video card. I finally discovered the solution, after > an incredible saga of thud and blunder... > > * the Gentoo x86 install CD must use lowest-common-denominator basic > i686 instructions, in order to work on every x86 machine. That's what > the CD puts on the machine during the install process. That very > basic code doesn't have sse2, sse3 (aka pni), ssse3, and various other > advanced instructions. Decoding video streams is a heavy-duty number > crunching job, and the CPU couldn't do it with one arm tied behind its > back. > > * when I emerged system and world (i.e. rebuilt the OS and programs), > all the source code was compiled with the CFLAGS that I specified. > Now, the machine not only handles 1080i using the onboard Intel GPU, > it handles 1080p flawlessly. I downloaded a short 1080p video clip > from Youtube to test on, because my 5-megabit ADSL connection couldn't > stream it realtime. > > So yes, Gentoo's optimization does make a difference. The onboard > GPU shows up in lspci as... Well sse matters to video decoding. That's what many distributions have optimized versions of mplayer and such. > "Intel Corporation 82G33/G31 Express Integrated Graphics Controller" > > and the cpu is a Core2 (*NOT* a Core2 Duo) with 2 cores that show up > under /proc/cpuinfo as... OK, if it is a Core2, with two CPUs, how is it not a Core2 Duo? Oh of course, it's a Pentium Dual Core E2140. Less L2 cache and a different name. > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family : 6 > model : 15 > model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU 2140 @ 1.60GHz > stepping : 2 > cpu MHz : 1595.987 > cache size : 1024 KB > physical id : 0 > siblings : 2 > > A 4+ year old system is saved from the scrap heap. -- Len Sorenssen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 15:18:02 2011 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:18:02 -0500 Subject: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick In-Reply-To: <20111219071321.GA4870-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219051704.GA19697@yam.witteman.ca> <20111219071321.GA4870@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20111219151802.GA25293@yam.witteman.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 02:13:21AM -0500, William Park wrote: Thanks to Lennart and William, I can put the image on the loopback interface, but it I sadly no further ahead. Here's what happens: losetup /dev/loop0 usb.img fdisk -u -l /dev/loop0 Disk /dev/loop0: 4041 MB, 4041211904 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 491 cylinders, total 7892992 sectors Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes Disk identifier: 0xb8167e71 Disk /dev/loop0 doesn't contain a valid partition table mount /dev/loop0 /mnt/tmp/ NTFS signature is missing. Failed to mount '/dev/loop0': Invalid argument The device '/dev/loop0' doesn't seem to have a valid NTFS. Maybe the wrong device is used? Or the whole disk instead of a partition (e.g. /dev/sda, not /dev/sda1)? Or the other way around? This is where I got stuck before - I can't mount the image because it is broken, but I don't know how to fix its brokenness. Any other suggestions? -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 15:24:57 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:24:57 -0500 Subject: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick In-Reply-To: <20111219151802.GA25293-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219051704.GA19697@yam.witteman.ca> <20111219071321.GA4870@node1.opengeometry.net> <20111219151802.GA25293@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <4EEF5749.7030005@utoronto.ca> On 19/12/11 10:18 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > This is where I got stuck before - I can't mount the image because it is > broken, but I don't know how to fix its brokenness. > > Any other suggestions? Grab a copy of testdisk and run that on the image. Best. Tool. Ever. You ought to be able to run it on the dd image, and just follow the prompts. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 16:54:32 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:54:32 -0500 Subject: Rescuing a Damaged USB Stick In-Reply-To: <20111219151802.GA25293-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219051704.GA19697@yam.witteman.ca> <20111219071321.GA4870@node1.opengeometry.net> <20111219151802.GA25293@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20111219165432.GJ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:18:02AM -0500, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 02:13:21AM -0500, William Park wrote: > > Thanks to Lennart and William, I can put the image on the loopback > interface, but it I sadly no further ahead. Here's what happens: > > losetup /dev/loop0 usb.img > fdisk -u -l /dev/loop0 > > Disk /dev/loop0: 4041 MB, 4041211904 bytes > 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 491 cylinders, total 7892992 sectors > Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes > Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes > I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes > Disk identifier: 0xb8167e71 > > Disk /dev/loop0 doesn't contain a valid partition table > > mount /dev/loop0 /mnt/tmp/ > NTFS signature is missing. > Failed to mount '/dev/loop0': Invalid argument > The device '/dev/loop0' doesn't seem to have a valid NTFS. > Maybe the wrong device is used? Or the whole disk instead of a > partition (e.g. /dev/sda, not /dev/sda1)? Or the other way around? > > This is where I got stuck before - I can't mount the image because it is > broken, but I don't know how to fix its brokenness. > > Any other suggestions? gpart (guess partition) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 21:06:14 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:06:14 -0500 Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: <20111219081108.GA5062-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> <20111219081108.GA5062@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20111219210614.GB24467@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 03:11:08AM -0500, William Park wrote > Couldn't you just re-compiled the decoding program? That would help somewhat in the case of mplayer, but... 1) mplayer uses various libraries (dynamically linked). They have to be rebuilt too, for mplayer to get more benefit. 2) Speeding up the entire OS leaves additional cpu cycles for the decoder to use. E.g. NHL Gamecenter Live uses Flash, which is a proprietary blob, that I cannot optimize. Before the rebuild, I could only run a live hockey game halfscreen without it stuttering and dropping frames. After the rebuild, I can run the game fullscreen without problems. It's not HD, but it's definitely better than SD. I grew up in Winnipeg, so I like to watch Jets games when they're not blacked out in Toronto. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 21:45:45 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:45:45 -0500 Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: <20111219150022.GI27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> <20111219150022.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111219214545.GC24467@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:00:22AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote > Well sse matters to video decoding. That's what many distributions > have optimized versions of mplayer and such. That doesn't provide full benefit, unless you optimize all the packages that mplayer depends on. I ran "equery" (a Gentoo-specific tool) to list all dependancies of mplayer. Here are the packages I have installed that mplayer depends on... app-arch/bzip2-1.0.6-r3 sys-libs/zlib-1.2.5-r2 sys-libs/ncurses-5.9 virtual/libiconv-0 media-libs/win32codecs-20071007-r4 app-arch/unrar-4.0.7 dev-util/pkgconfig-0.26 virtual/opengl-7.0 media-libs/freetype-2.4.8 virtual/jpeg-0 dev-lang/yasm-1.1.0-r1 media-libs/libpng-1.5.6 media-libs/alsa-lib-1.0.24.1 virtual/ttf-fonts-1 media-libs/giflib-4.1.6-r2 dev-libs/libxslt-1.1.26-r2 media-libs/a52dec-0.7.4-r6 media-video/rtmpdump-2.3 x11-libs/libXext-1.3.0 media-libs/libvorbis-1.3.1 x11-proto/videoproto-2.3.1 x11-proto/xf86vidmodeproto-2.3.1 x11-proto/xf86dgaproto-2.1 x11-proto/xineramaproto-1.2.1 x11-proto/scrnsaverproto-1.2.1 media-libs/fontconfig-2.8.0-r1 media-libs/libass-0.9.13 dev-libs/fribidi-0.19.2-r1 media-sound/lame-3.98.4 media-libs/x264-0.0.20110426 media-libs/xvid-1.2.2-r2 media-libs/libmng-1.0.10-r1 media-sound/mpg123-1.13.2 x11-libs/libXxf86vm-1.1.1 x11-libs/libXxf86dga-1.1.2 x11-libs/libXv-1.0.6 media-libs/libtheora-1.1.1 x11-libs/libXvMC-1.0.6 ...and those are just the direct first level dependancies. If I listed the dependancies for these packages, the output would get really ugly really fast. I repeat, it isn't enough to merely optimize mplayer itself. * mplayer video calls X, so you have to optimize all of X * mplayer audio calls alsa, so you have to optimize all of alsa * if you're playing streaming audio/video, it helps to optimize all the networking code * the calls are, in many cases, handled by the kernel, so you have to optimize the kernel * etc, etc. Optimize the entire system, and be done with it. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 21:50:37 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:50:37 -0500 Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111219215037.GD24467@waltdnes.org> Here is half the output (i.e. 1 core) from /proc/cpuinfo processor : 1 vendor_id : GenuineIntel cpu family : 6 model : 15 model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU 2140 @ 1.60GHz stepping : 2 cpu MHz : 1595.987 cache size : 1024 KB physical id : 0 siblings : 2 core id : 1 cpu cores : 2 apicid : 1 initial apicid : 1 fdiv_bug : no hlt_bug : no f00f_bug : no coma_bug : no fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 10 wp : yes flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts aperfmperf pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm lahf_lm dts bogomips : 3192.04 clflush size : 64 cache_alignment : 64 address sizes : 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual power management: -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 21:58:21 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:58:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: <20111219214545.GC24467-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> <20111219150022.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111219214545.GC24467@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <1324331901.98228.YahooMailNeo@web113406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >* mplayer video calls X, so you have to optimize all of X >* mplayer audio calls alsa, so you have to optimize all of alsa >* if you're playing streaming audio/video, it helps to optimize all the >? networking code >* the calls are, in many cases, handled by the kernel, so you have to >? optimize the kernel >* etc, etc.? Optimize the entire system, and be done with it. I guess this is one advantage of Gentoo.? I tried installing it way back, but I gave up! It made more sense to run 64bit OS on 64bit CPU. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 22:03:15 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:03:15 -0500 Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: <20111219214545.GC24467-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> <20111219150022.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111219214545.GC24467@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111219220315.GK27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 04:45:45PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:00:22AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > > Well sse matters to video decoding. That's what many distributions > > have optimized versions of mplayer and such. > > That doesn't provide full benefit, unless you optimize all the > packages that mplayer depends on. I ran "equery" (a Gentoo-specific > tool) to list all dependancies of mplayer. Here are the packages I have > installed that mplayer depends on... > > app-arch/bzip2-1.0.6-r3 > sys-libs/zlib-1.2.5-r2 > sys-libs/ncurses-5.9 > virtual/libiconv-0 > media-libs/win32codecs-20071007-r4 > app-arch/unrar-4.0.7 > dev-util/pkgconfig-0.26 > virtual/opengl-7.0 > media-libs/freetype-2.4.8 > virtual/jpeg-0 > dev-lang/yasm-1.1.0-r1 > media-libs/libpng-1.5.6 > media-libs/alsa-lib-1.0.24.1 > virtual/ttf-fonts-1 > media-libs/giflib-4.1.6-r2 > dev-libs/libxslt-1.1.26-r2 > media-libs/a52dec-0.7.4-r6 > media-video/rtmpdump-2.3 > x11-libs/libXext-1.3.0 > media-libs/libvorbis-1.3.1 > x11-proto/videoproto-2.3.1 > x11-proto/xf86vidmodeproto-2.3.1 > x11-proto/xf86dgaproto-2.1 > x11-proto/xineramaproto-1.2.1 > x11-proto/scrnsaverproto-1.2.1 > media-libs/fontconfig-2.8.0-r1 > media-libs/libass-0.9.13 > dev-libs/fribidi-0.19.2-r1 > media-sound/lame-3.98.4 > media-libs/x264-0.0.20110426 > media-libs/xvid-1.2.2-r2 > media-libs/libmng-1.0.10-r1 > media-sound/mpg123-1.13.2 > x11-libs/libXxf86vm-1.1.1 > x11-libs/libXxf86dga-1.1.2 > x11-libs/libXv-1.0.6 > media-libs/libtheora-1.1.1 > x11-libs/libXvMC-1.0.6 > > ...and those are just the direct first level dependancies. If I listed > the dependancies for these packages, the output would get really ugly > really fast. I repeat, it isn't enough to merely optimize mplayer itself. > > * mplayer video calls X, so you have to optimize all of X > * mplayer audio calls alsa, so you have to optimize all of alsa > * if you're playing streaming audio/video, it helps to optimize all the > networking code > * the calls are, in many cases, handled by the kernel, so you have to > optimize the kernel > * etc, etc. Optimize the entire system, and be done with it. I run a 64bit x86 system. So of course everything is already sse optimized in every distribution. Since your CPU is 64bit capable, just do that. Twice the registers gains you typically about 10% performance on everything, so you probably would benefit from that on an older system like that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 23:28:36 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:28:36 -0500 Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: <20111219220315.GK27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> <20111219150022.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111219214545.GC24467@waltdnes.org> <20111219220315.GK27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111219232836.GA24664@waltdnes.org> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 05:03:15PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > I run a 64bit x86 system. So of course everything is already sse > optimized in every distribution. > > Since your CPU is 64bit capable, just do that. > > Twice the registers gains you typically about 10% performance on > everything, so you probably would benefit from that on an older system > like that. And the binaries also end up slightly larger, which may increase swapping. Since the system only has 2 gigs of RAM, it's not really worth it. I don't know if it can take more than 2 gigs, and even if it could, how expensive is memory for that old of a motherboard? What prompted all this work on my part was the announcement that "Antenna TV" http://www.antennatv.tv/affiliates/ will be showing up as a sub-channel on WGRZ, Buffalo, on January 1st. It may not be everybody's cup of tea, but the schedule intrigues me http://affiliate.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCGrid.do?aid=antennatv Think of it as a real-world version of http://www.rimmell.com/bbc/news.htm I'm in a 6th-storey condo with a clear view to the SSE, and WGRZ is reliable reception for me with a good indoor antenna. I want to be able to PVR to my PC and view later. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 19 23:47:26 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:47:26 -0500 Subject: Video playback problem solved In-Reply-To: <20111219232836.GA24664-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111219074646.GB22397@waltdnes.org> <20111219150022.GI27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111219214545.GC24467@waltdnes.org> <20111219220315.GK27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111219232836.GA24664@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111219234726.GL27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 06:28:36PM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > And the binaries also end up slightly larger, which may increase > swapping. Since the system only has 2 gigs of RAM, it's not really > worth it. I don't know if it can take more than 2 gigs, and even if > it could, how expensive is memory for that old of a motherboard? You are not going to have enough code to make a noticeable difference. Most of that will be data and the data size doesn't change. The extra register more than make up for it. x86_64 is unlike any other 64bit CPU extension. It is actually faster and better than the 32bit variant, unlike anything else where 32bit was always faster. > What prompted all this work on my part was the announcement that > "Antenna TV" http://www.antennatv.tv/affiliates/ will be showing up as a > sub-channel on WGRZ, Buffalo, on January 1st. It may not be everybody's > cup of tea, but the schedule intrigues me > http://affiliate.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCGrid.do?aid=antennatv Think > of it as a real-world version of http://www.rimmell.com/bbc/news.htm > > I'm in a 6th-storey condo with a clear view to the SSE, and WGRZ is > reliable reception for me with a good indoor antenna. I want to be able > to PVR to my PC and view later. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 20:06:36 2011 From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:06:36 -0500 Subject: Network Attached Temperature Monitor? Message-ID: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel@nray.ca> Hi all, Does anyone on this list know where I can get my hands on a network attached thermometer that can send email if the temperature gets out of range? The A/C in my server room is not behaving and I'd like it to be able to call for help if it breaks down over the holidays. :) Thanks, Stephen ____________________ Stephen W. Clarke Marketing and Communications Officer Nray Services Inc. 56A Head Street Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 CANADA (905) 627-1302 x14 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From david.vangeest-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 20:41:05 2011 From: david.vangeest-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (David van Geest) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:41:05 -0500 Subject: Network Attached Temperature Monitor? In-Reply-To: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone on this list know where I can get my hands on a network > attached thermometer that can send email if the temperature gets out of > range? I actually just worked on a project that does this exact thing. The thermometer itself isn't network-attached, but it uses RF to talk to an Internet-connected bridge which sends your data to a server. The server will email you or send a text message if it gets over a user-defined threshold. It integrates with a bunch of other weather-related sensors that may or may not be of interest to you. Here's the marketing website: http://www.acurite.com/mybackyardweather I am in no way responsible for the UI design or the forecasting algorithms..... :-). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 20:58:51 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:58:51 -0500 Subject: Tux stickers Message-ID: <4EF0F70B.6090207@rogers.com> Does anyone in the Toronto area have "Tux" stickers available? I want to remove the Windows 7 sticker from my ThinkPad and replace it with something useful. Another nice thing, but probably not available, would be a small round Tux sticker that I can put on the "Windows" key. It actually has a recessed circular area about 4.5mm across that would be perfect for a small round sticker. tnx jk -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 21:39:01 2011 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:39:01 -0500 Subject: Network Attached Temperature Monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <4EF10075.3030900@gmail.com> http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/pci_pc_watchdog.aspx i use these as they are watch dogs as well, not network attached, but have temp sensors. -tl On 12/20/2011 03:41 PM, David van Geest wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Does anyone on this list know where I can get my hands on a network >> attached thermometer that can send email if the temperature gets out of >> range? > I actually just worked on a project that does this exact thing. The > thermometer itself isn't network-attached, but it uses RF to talk to > an Internet-connected bridge which sends your data to a server. The > server will email you or send a text message if it gets over a > user-defined threshold. It integrates with a bunch of other > weather-related sensors that may or may not be of interest to you. > > Here's the marketing website: http://www.acurite.com/mybackyardweather > > I am in no way responsible for the UI design or the forecasting > algorithms..... :-). > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 20 21:44:21 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:44:21 -0500 Subject: Network Attached Temperature Monitor? In-Reply-To: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <4EF101B5.5010803@gmail.com> It would be a SMOP to poll the Arduino Online Thermometer: http://www.freetronics.com/pages/online-thermometer Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 00:35:25 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 19:35:25 -0500 Subject: Did XDMX get replaced? Message-ID: I want to use a monitor on another machine to extend the X desktop on my current machine. Not dual head, or at least not in the expected way: each monitor is attached to its own computer. Years ago, XDMX was the solution to this particular problem, but XDMX appears to be completely abandoned. There are packages in Debian, but notes online suggest that the only thing you can get out of those packages are segfaults (and that was my experience after a lot of work about a year ago). The people who have got it working are suggesting you dig out xdmx packages from etch, which seems just a little too old to be practical. Synergy is nice and I like it, but it's not what I'm looking for in this instance. I want to be able to drag a window between the two (or more) monitors. Is there some other way to do this, or has anybody had success with recent builds of xdmx? Thanks. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 01:08:01 2011 From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:08:01 -0500 Subject: Bash question Message-ID: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> Hi, I have a bash or scripting question. I have a few hundred files in a directory, They have file names formatted similar to below: 6230718_1puJ0P8Z_file1.pdf 6230718_b9nP4YtD_file2.pdf 6230718_O1F0Qj0p_file3.pdf 6233064_c9yOocTq_file4.pdf 6233064_ON8OdanT_file5.pdf 6233064_X64AbjZZ_file6.pdf I want to take all the files that have the same 7 digit numbers at the front end of the file names and join the PDF files. There are not always 3 files associated with the same 7 digit number. Sometimes there are more or less than 3 pdf files to join. I figured I can use pdftk to join the files but trying to figure out how to easily select and sort a random number of PDFs has me a bit stumped. Any takers? Thanks, Jim -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 02:29:39 2011 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:29:39 -0500 Subject: Bash question In-Reply-To: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> References: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: <20111220212939.f0d7441a.hgibson@eol.ca> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:08:01 -0500 jim wrote: > Hi, > I have a bash or scripting question. I have a few hundred files in a > directory, They have file names formatted similar to below: > 6230718_1puJ0P8Z_file1.pdf > 6230718_b9nP4YtD_file2.pdf > 6230718_O1F0Qj0p_file3.pdf > 6233064_c9yOocTq_file4.pdf6233064 > 6233064_ON8OdanT_file5.pdf > 6233064_X64AbjZZ_file6.pdf > > I want to take all the files that have the same 7 digit numbers at the > front end of the file names and join the PDF files. There are not always > 3 files associated with the same 7 digit number. Sometimes there are > more or less than 3 pdf files to join. I figured I can use pdftk to join > the files but trying to figure out how to easily select and sort a > random number of PDFs has me a bit stumped. Any takers? > Thanks, > Jim Jim, For any sort of weird, complicated text processing, I strongly recommend Perl. You can capture the directory list by going ls 6233064*. You can feed this to the next command. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howard.gibson-PadmjKOQAFnQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org jhowardgibson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 02:51:03 2011 From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:51:03 -0500 Subject: Bash question In-Reply-To: <20111220212939.f0d7441a.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> <20111220212939.f0d7441a.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1324435863.2208.27.camel@jimslaptop> > > > Hi, > > I have a bash or scripting question. I have a few hundred files in a > > directory, They have file names formatted similar to below: > > 6230718_1puJ0P8Z_file1.pdf > > 6230718_b9nP4YtD_file2.pdf > > 6230718_O1F0Qj0p_file3.pdf > > 6233064_c9yOocTq_file4.pdf > > 6233064_ON8OdanT_file5.pdf > > 6233064_X64AbjZZ_file6.pdf > > > > I want to take all the files that have the same 7 digit numbers at the > > front end of the file names and join the PDF files. There are not always > > 3 files associated with the same 7 digit number. Sometimes there are > > more or less than 3 pdf files to join. I figured I can use pdftk to join > > the files but trying to figure out how to easily select and sort a > > random number of PDFs has me a bit stumped. Any takers? > > Thanks, > > Jim > Jim, > > For any sort of weird, complicated text processing, I strongly recommend Perl. > > You can capture the directory list by going ls 6233064*. You can feed this to the next command. Thanks. I would prefer not to have to do an ls for each 7 digit number. There are at least 100 of these unique 7 digit numbers in the directory. I was thinking I may have to use the linux " uniq " command in here to somehow first get all the unique numbers?? Jim > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 03:12:47 2011 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:12:47 -0500 Subject: Bash question In-Reply-To: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> References: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: <4EF14EAF.6050504@gmail.com> You could do something like: ls *pdf | sed 's/_.*//;' | sort -u | while read prefix do pdftk --outfile joined_${prefix}.pdf --infiles ${prefix}*pdf done This gives you loop over every unique prefix. I've assumed that every file starts with prefix+'_'. I know I have the arguments for pdftk wrong; it's slightly odd the way it's used. But I hope you get the idea. cheers, Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From wheagy1-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 03:19:05 2011 From: wheagy1-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Bill Heagy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:19:05 -0500 Subject: Bash question In-Reply-To: <1324435863.2208.27.camel@jimslaptop> References: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> <20111220212939.f0d7441a.hgibson@eol.ca> <1324435863.2208.27.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: <4EF15029.7030303@rogers.com> jim wrote: > >> >>> Hi, >>> I have a bash or scripting question. I have a few hundred files in a >>> directory, They have file names formatted similar to below: >>> 6230718_1puJ0P8Z_file1.pdf >>> 6230718_b9nP4YtD_file2.pdf >>> 6230718_O1F0Qj0p_file3.pdf >>> 6233064_c9yOocTq_file4.pdf >>> 6233064_ON8OdanT_file5.pdf >>> 6233064_X64AbjZZ_file6.pdf >>> >>> I want to take all the files that have the same 7 digit numbers at the >>> front end of the file names and join the PDF files. There are not always >>> 3 files associated with the same 7 digit number. Sometimes there are >>> more or less than 3 pdf files to join. I figured I can use pdftk to join >>> the files but trying to figure out how to easily select and sort a >>> random number of PDFs has me a bit stumped. Any takers? >>> Thanks, >>> Jim >> Jim, >> >> For any sort of weird, complicated text processing, I strongly recommend Perl. >> >> You can capture the directory list by going ls 6233064*. You can feed this to the next command. > > Thanks. I would prefer not to have to do an ls for each 7 digit number. > There are at least 100 of these unique 7 digit numbers in the directory. > I was thinking I may have to use the linux " uniq " command in here to > somehow first get all the unique numbers?? > > Jim >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > I think something like for i in `ls [0-9]* | cut -b1-7|uniq`;do foobar ${i}*pdf -o new${i}.pdf;done will work. This assumes that all files starting with a digit are eligible: adjust as required. I don't know the syntax for your pdftk command: adjust this as required also. Beware using ">" for redirecting output though: that requires careful use of quotes. (This is not gospel: I'm not a bash expert.) -- Bill Heagy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 03:19:35 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 03:19:35 +0000 Subject: Bash question Message-ID: <1079887628-1324437577-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1468380619-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> Are you looking to merge all files into a single PDF based on the file name, or will you create multiple PDF documents from a series of files? I.e. 6230718*.pdf is merged into 6230718.pdf and 6230719*.pdf is merged into 6230719.pdf or all files into arbitrary-name.pdf What tools are installed with regard to PDF generation? I typically use GhostScript to join PDF files, but it may not be the best option when dealing with an arbitrary number of files. ------Original Message------ From: jim Sender: owner-tlug at ss.org To: tlug at ss.org ReplyTo: tlug at ss.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Bash question Sent: Dec 20, 2011 21:51 > > > Hi, > > I have a bash or scripting question. I have a few hundred files in a > > directory, They have file names formatted similar to below: > > 6230718_1puJ0P8Z_file1.pdf > > 6230718_b9nP4YtD_file2.pdf > > 6230718_O1F0Qj0p_file3.pdf > > 6233064_c9yOocTq_file4.pdf > > 6233064_ON8OdanT_file5.pdf > > 6233064_X64AbjZZ_file6.pdf > > > > I want to take all the files that have the same 7 digit numbers at the > > front end of the file names and join the PDF files. There are not always > > 3 files associated with the same 7 digit number. Sometimes there are > > more or less than 3 pdf files to join. I figured I can use pdftk to join > > the files but trying to figure out how to easily select and sort a > > random number of PDFs has me a bit stumped. Any takers? > > Thanks, > > Jim > Jim, > > For any sort of weird, complicated text processing, I strongly recommend Perl. > > You can capture the directory list by going ls 6233064*. You can feed this to the next command. Thanks. I would prefer not to have to do an ls for each 7 digit number. There are at least 100 of these unique 7 digit numbers in the directory. I was thinking I may have to use the linux " uniq " command in here to somehow first get all the unique numbers?? Jim > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 04:14:06 2011 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:14:06 -0500 Subject: Network Attached Temperature Monitor? In-Reply-To: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: Two possible solutions that come to mind - Phidgets http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?category=6 USB connected, they provide various drivers for different programming languages, (I believe) you have to write the software to access their hardware. Syscomp (us) http://www.syscompdesign.com/products.html DVM-101 (Mastech MS8226) digital voltmeter with temperature sensor. We provide open source Tcl software for reading the instrument, logging the data and/or plotting the variable (such as temperature) vs time. The advantage of the multimeter is that it has its own readout, so you can use it independently of a computer, or plug it into a USB port for logging. You could modify the software we provide to use the Tcl HTTP routines to send data over a network connection. Regards - Peter > Hi all, > > Does anyone on this list know where I can get my hands on a network > attached thermometer that can send email if the temperature gets out of > range? > > The A/C in my server room is not behaving and I'd like it to be able to > call for help if it breaks down over the holidays. :) > > Thanks, > Stephen > ____________________ > Stephen W. Clarke > Marketing and Communications Officer > Nray Services Inc. > 56A Head Street > Dundas, ON L9H 3H7 > CANADA > > (905) 627-1302 x14 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 04:32:23 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:32:23 -0500 Subject: Network Attached Temperature Monitor? In-Reply-To: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: > Does anyone on this list know where I can get my hands on a network > attached thermometer that can send email if the temperature gets out of > range? I know that the product exists; we sent one to a data centre where we didn't entirely trust the A/C quality. It was network addressable, and cost a fair bit, whether that was hundreds of dollars or beyond $1K I wasn't privy to. The point of the exercise isn't about sending email; that's easy to do anywhere; you just need the ability to get at the temperature feed. I don't know that these are good vendors, but they do carry such stuff... http://www.hw-group.com/index_en.html http://www.sensaphone.com/data_center.php -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 06:13:19 2011 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 01:13:19 -0500 Subject: Help analyze this, how can she be hacked Message-ID: Hi, All of sudden one of my friend, an elder lady, started to send spams to everybody. When I talked about it with her, she thought it all began with her opening up a suspicious attachment from within her cell phone, and has nothing to do with her PC. Since she is not tech savvy at all, I am kind of not fully buying into it. Has anyone heard of any malware that successfully infects cell phones? So I did some research, and found another victim very similar to her. *Am I sending out spam? * http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=633043 in which the OP says, "1)I'm ridiculously careful about that kind of stuff and I'm not sure I > could be tricked into it. > 2)This is a seldom used account. It's not used for any social networking > sites, I never would have typed in the username/password anywhere other > then on the webmail page and my phone (it's a POP3 account).. . ." > Yet he's been hacked. -- The fact that it sent the email to people in your contacts list is a sure > sign that the account has been compromised. > I don't have a cell phone that can send/receive email, so can anyone help me analysis the following email header, and see what kind of conclusion can be drawn from it? - Looks to me that the spammer did send out the spams from within YahooMail Web Service, or it is forged as well? - Can we conclude from the fact that the string "androidMobile" in the Message-ID that the spammer is sending out the spams using an Android cell phone using the YahooMail Mobile phone Web Service? Any guesses what actually had happened to her? Thanks Received: (qmail 62123 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2011 20:24:45 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; t=1324412685; bh=Uerd3bJ2IEQlAxxINeFmfZ/RbZ1Dqn4BLyX/qf4QVRE=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mCaYOO18t1+C9xm1u0Fisd1s9fO5+MR6Mykku0cZMf9smq+yg2Qx70hK8mdurk97PTUDW/OsJSnLugzArQQWiApnLVG/t+CIZr+IAYdBNwFQXZ1lotAOpW1tGMtcMI6QjtFXZt9gYWOAHVamCYAKq0Vf4meMnfNGk88NisYQgE4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=pT7VarhBYaYQUGmhmthvyP7UjypmjidcaFIJO8yLX4FGZsqHbsy+iazsEfC1bWdo1rC/djsMlFv6tuhEoKrzjLJ45sMmDDBuQWIXZpzZjMGw5ILVRsGPrp2OeS/WDTc9pvGS6dTFiU+DjbFcWPCIncoOobSNVCSQVFdPmtQ7eKI=; X-YMail-OSG: JcRxq6EVM1nm3zKFcoOnAtEo23MwEaGh9nAQXyvg7XOo1J. tnKPDlwG_SvTEDpG8ylRTyTahWKUtOAxa4.bE_WiHzbvHbRxirSg5d3h.rjL LT84eL012aK0Fp835Z_7H0ahfrV6JIOlOJW_9PvPjOKllgMvEOwWbjuoOf8H SEUEfWQwcFbK7Oxn39c.APJmVwM5gk5ry77kt1f_pExbC9CS1TzUk_Wrw.su R9zfMRzAIcKKW0obEWK7d6BoeKiIhl2o5ndOOePZz7_NEoAvZKmqg5lIPSI9 gM9jDmHVH8gS1rESp4qTSMukULc6u9d1b02PHCOum0i4g_zG4lUX7yWOIYJ3 71qJl6YkJKjebVUt5.Ilemt2DxIy9DZ4CYTCB0eY.6itVYj7JeuS2fzvhse1 s_wuKst.ftWlM7g34z..crd9VRL5vKoZw6SPwWII17p_XKk9mfo.a.FuZ1kW n0ovtEqD4ZyFbqCcRMcJjS0wx2CDmDzWx7ftt.KtZSOvl_NIvuGW9JeVK_w. WR4Ulzk.XiFfm3UOnBTilXKxSC_bBNubfwpzLKk1foQ-- Received: from [117.195.97.137] by web88605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:24:44 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.115.331698 Message-ID: <1324412684.53494.androidMobile-cTa2G3qg0ZGvYMxfvLqCK1Z8N9CAUha/QQ4Iyu8u01E at public.gmane.org> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:24:44 -0800 (PST) From: ...... Subject: I DID IT! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 03:12:33 2011 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:12:33 -0500 Subject: Bash question In-Reply-To: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> References: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: <1324437153.29314.1.camel@cougar-natty> On Tue, 2011-12-20 at 20:08 -0500, jim wrote: > > I want to take all the files that have the same 7 digit numbers at the > front end of the file names Jim, You might try something like this, with changes of course, to fit your situation ... ls -1 \ | grep --extended-regexp '^[[:digit:]]{6}.*\.pdf' \ | grep --only-match --extended-regexp '^[[:digit:]]{7}' \ | uniq \ | xargs -L1 -I theNumber \ bash -c 'eval echo "Do something clever with files ... theNumber* "' Note how neatly the `echo` command at the end of that sidesteps the question of how one joins PDF files. That question came up on this list a couple of weeks ago. HTH, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 04:35:40 2011 From: jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Sellens) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:35:40 -0500 Subject: Network Attached Temperature Monitor? In-Reply-To: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org> References: <5efb1d2974af9baec9951db8088c03ab.squirrel@nray.ca> Message-ID: <201112210435.pBL4ZeR3014897@john.syonex.com> Might be tough to get one by mail order on short notice. There are a number of self-contained (i.e. not do it yourself) devices that plug into the network. I've used and been happy with the WeatherGoose products from http://www.itwatchdogs.com/ Dan Klein wrote and maintains the thermd software, and has a whole page of device links here: http://www.thermd.com/devices.shtml Dan likes the "1-wire" devices in various forms (I think). You may already have some devices in your machine room that you can read the temperature from. Temperature inside a device won't tell you room temperature, but you can track relative changes. If you have relatively recent (last few years) servers, you may be able to use IPMI to query the motherboard temperature sensors. On Dell servers running Linux (or windows!) you can install the Dell OpenManage tools, and "omreport chassis temps" will tell you the temperature readings from your server. The lm_sensors package (http://www.lm-sensors.org/) can get temperatures from some servers. Some Cisco routers have temperature sensors that you can query with SNMP (which I did years ago). My power bars can tell me the temperature. APC UPSs can have environmental monitoring addons. Hope that helps - cheers! John On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 03:06:36PM -0500, Stephen W. Clarke wrote: | Hi all, | | Does anyone on this list know where I can get my hands on a network | attached thermometer that can send email if the temperature gets out of | range? | | The A/C in my server room is not behaving and I'd like it to be able to | call for help if it breaks down over the holidays. :) | | Thanks, | Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 08:54:36 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 03:54:36 -0500 Subject: Help analyze this, how can she be hacked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111221085436.GA12739@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 01:13:19AM -0500, Antonio Sun wrote It's been years since I frequented NANAE, but my take is that you trust only the topmost "Received:" header with an IP address. > Received: from [117.195.97.137] by web88605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:24:44 PST The 117.195.96.0/20 address block (117.192.0.0 - 117.207.255.255) belongs to BSNL Internet in India, according to a whois lookup. Unless she's in India, I doubt its her. Someone may have gotten at her contact list, and be forging emails from her. Spammers will forge emails from a person to everyone in their contact list. The idea is that people are more likely to open emails from someone they know. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 14:24:29 2011 From: rreiter91-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Russell Reiter) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:24:29 -0500 Subject: OT cleaning laptop components- sugary liquid contamination Message-ID: I've been given a supposedly broken laptop by a neighbour. Someone in the building was throwing it out and it was rescued by the superintendent of the building. They apparently took it around to stores in the neighbourhood and were told it would be impossible or too expensive to fix. When I first got it, when the power button was pressed it would shut off after five seconds with no POST beeps and what I perceived to be excessive heat buildup around the area of the power supply. The laptop is a hp pavilion dv1000. 1.6 bus and 512 ram. I monkeyed around with it a bit. ie. turning it on every time it shut off and was eventually able to get the battery charged and then it would stay on but with a black screen and two short POST beeps, which in some computers indicates a normal boot. I attached an external monitor, got the apparently normal post but still a black screen. I kept repeating the boot process while placing the laptop screen at different angles, in case the video cable to the inverter had been pinched after dropping the laptop or some sort of similar impact. Assuming normal boot and a display problem I pressed the enter button to continue to boot windows and the laptop would churn for a few seconds and then shut off. Finally I was able to get a flash of text on the attached monitor which was the windows "boot in safe or normal" prompt. As soon as I stopped applying pressure to the top of the laptop display that text would disappear. Again by moving the laptop display during boot while I applied pressure to the top of the display, and after many attempts to find an orientation where the display worked, I was able to find an place where the laptop display kept the message on the attached monitor. I was then able to watch the windows boot process as it failed to access the windows system directories, which appeared to be corrupted and then it would shut down. I reinstalled from the original disks which had been kept with the computer in the box it was thrown out in and with the external monitor attached I was able to reinstall windows. I resized the disk volume with gparted and installed Debian. After getting this far I assumed the backlight inverter or its connection was failing and I started to remove the display. In order to do that you have to remove the keyboard. I removed the screws indicated by the service manual I had downloaded, but the keyboard was stuck fast. It was so stuck that when I was trying to remove it, I would look in the area between the part of the keyboard I was able to lift and the part that would not separate and it appeared to be held down with double sided tape. That was not so. When I was finaly able to disengage the keyboard, I noticed a caramel coloured residue on the plate the keyboard rests on. It looks like a soft drink had been spilled and had soaked the paper label on the back of the keyboard. I guess the glue dissolved and then re-hardened essentially gluing the keyboard in place. I also took the faceplate off the display to access the inverter and cable and noticed the same caramel residue on the lower left corner of the display case. Before I search out an new inverter or cable, I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how to clean the soft drink residue from the components. At this point I am unsure whether the video problem is in fact the inverter or cable or some sort of loading imbalance in the related power supply or video components. The power supply, external monitor attachment and the video port are all clustered in the area where the liquid was apparently spilled. Right now as I type, if I pull the display forward the picture disappears and then appears again in the new forward location. If I push the display backwards the picture stays normal. This might be the inverter or the cable. To help with the perceived heating problem I keep the laptop elevated off the table to allow air to circulate around the power supply. I really think that a good cleaning might bring it back to normal service. I could try soap and water and dry the components in rice or gel packs, but I'm afraid that there would be some residue from the soap or minerals in the water. Any cleaning solutions are appreciated. Thanks Russell -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 14:40:37 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:40:37 -0500 Subject: Help analyze this, how can she be hacked In-Reply-To: <20111221085436.GA12739-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111221085436.GA12739@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111221144037.GA3051@watson-wilson.ca> Yes, Joe Jobbing is the most likely explanation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_jobbing Every so often my mail server gets a return of emails I did not send which must have originated from a Joe Jobber. There is little one can do to prevent this. If you look the headers you can usually see how they are forged. There is one concern though and that is if these emails are being sent to your friend's contacts how did the spammer acquire them? -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 15:29:39 2011 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor http://www.computing.net/howto/simple/keyboard/) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:29:39 -0500 Subject: OT cleaning laptop components- sugary liquid contamination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5153161.iBm4mjZlMj@grouchy.120> You can follow the instructions below, but I want to emphasize a few things. You will need to remove the keys, so take a photograph of the keyboard so that you can put them back properly. (In the late '60s, a techie working very late spilled his coke on the console keyboard of our mainframe. He did his best to clean it up, but for the next few days, one by obne, the keytops kept falling off. In the meantime we had to work the console from memory.) Pay particular attention to where the special character keys are. Cleaning finger gunge from the keytops is best done with q-tps and 'Fantastic'. Make a tool in the shape of U, bending the upper parts of the U inward ninety degrees. This tool should, turned upside down, grip both side of a key at once, allowing a straight pull. http://www.computing.net/howto/simple/keyboard/ Good luck. On December 21, 2011 09:24:29 AM you wrote: > I've been given a supposedly broken laptop by a neighbour. Someone in > the building was throwing it out and it was rescued by the > superintendent of the building. They apparently took it around to > stores in the neighbourhood and were told it would be impossible or > too expensive to fix. When I first got it, when the power button was > pressed it would shut off after five seconds with no POST beeps and > what I perceived to be excessive heat buildup around the area of the > power supply. The laptop is a hp pavilion dv1000. 1.6 bus and 512 ram. > > I monkeyed around with it a bit. ie. turning it on every time it shut > off and was eventually able to get the battery charged and then it > would stay on but with a black screen and two short POST beeps, which > in some computers indicates a normal boot. I attached an external > monitor, got the apparently normal post but still a black screen. I > kept repeating the boot process while placing the laptop screen at > different angles, in case the video cable to the inverter had been > pinched after dropping the laptop or some sort of similar impact. > Assuming normal boot and a display problem I pressed the enter button > to continue to boot windows and the laptop would churn for a few > seconds and then shut off. > > Finally I was able to get a flash of text on the attached monitor > which was the windows "boot in safe or normal" prompt. As soon as I > stopped applying pressure to the top of the laptop display that text > would disappear. Again by moving the laptop display during boot while > I applied pressure to the top of the display, and after many attempts > to find an orientation where the display worked, I was able to find an > place where the laptop display kept the message on the attached > monitor. I was then able to watch the windows boot process as it > failed to access the windows system directories, which appeared to be > corrupted and then it would shut down. > > I reinstalled from the original disks which had been kept with the > computer in the box it was thrown out in and with the external monitor > attached I was able to reinstall windows. I resized the disk volume > with gparted and installed Debian. After getting this far I assumed > the backlight inverter or its connection was failing and I started to > remove the display. In order to do that you have to remove the > keyboard. I removed the screws indicated by the service manual I had > downloaded, but the keyboard was stuck fast. It was so stuck that when > I was trying to remove it, I would look in the area between the part > of the keyboard I was able to lift and the part that would not > separate and it appeared to be held down with double sided tape. That > was not so. > > When I was finaly able to disengage the keyboard, I noticed a caramel > coloured residue on the plate the keyboard rests on. It looks like a > soft drink had been spilled and had soaked the paper label on the back > of the keyboard. I guess the glue dissolved and then re-hardened > essentially gluing the keyboard in place. I also took the faceplate > off the display to access the inverter and cable and noticed the same > caramel residue on the lower left corner of the display case. > > Before I search out an new inverter or cable, I was wondering if > anyone has any suggestions on how to clean the soft drink residue from > the components. At this point I am unsure whether the video problem is > in fact the inverter or cable or some sort of loading imbalance in the > related power supply or video components. The power supply, external > monitor attachment and the video port are all clustered in the area > where the liquid was apparently spilled. > > Right now as I type, if I pull the display forward the picture > disappears and then appears again in the new forward location. If I > push the display backwards the picture stays normal. This might be the > inverter or the cable. To help with the perceived heating problem I > keep the laptop elevated off the table to allow air to circulate > around the power supply. I really think that a good cleaning might > bring it back to normal service. I could try soap and water and dry > the components in rice or gel packs, but I'm afraid that there would > be some residue from the soap or minerals in the water. > > Any cleaning solutions are appreciated. > > Thanks > Russell > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 15:41:47 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:41:47 -0500 Subject: Bash question In-Reply-To: <1324435863.2208.27.camel@jimslaptop> References: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> <20111220212939.f0d7441a.hgibson@eol.ca> <1324435863.2208.27.camel@jimslaptop> Message-ID: <20111221154147.GM27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 09:51:03PM -0500, jim wrote: > Thanks. I would prefer not to have to do an ls for each 7 digit number. > There are at least 100 of these unique 7 digit numbers in the directory. > I was thinking I may have to use the linux " uniq " command in here to > somehow first get all the unique numbers?? 100 is irrelevant to the system. If you were talking 100000 you would have a point. We do have disk caches after all. sort -u is sort and uniq combined. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 15:42:57 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:42:57 -0500 Subject: Bash question In-Reply-To: <4EF15029.7030303-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> <20111220212939.f0d7441a.hgibson@eol.ca> <1324435863.2208.27.camel@jimslaptop> <4EF15029.7030303@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111221154257.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:19:05PM -0500, Bill Heagy wrote: > I think something like > > for i in `ls [0-9]* | cut -b1-7|uniq`;do foobar ${i}*pdf -o new${i}.pdf;done The ${I}*pdf is essentially doing an ls. > will work. This assumes that all files starting with a digit are > eligible: adjust as required. I don't know the syntax for your > pdftk command: adjust this as required also. Beware using ">" for > redirecting output though: that requires careful use of quotes. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 15:50:43 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:50:43 -0500 Subject: OT cleaning laptop components- sugary liquid contamination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111221155043.GO27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 09:24:29AM -0500, Russell Reiter wrote: > I've been given a supposedly broken laptop by a neighbour. Someone in > the building was throwing it out and it was rescued by the > superintendent of the building. They apparently took it around to > stores in the neighbourhood and were told it would be impossible or > too expensive to fix. When I first got it, when the power button was > pressed it would shut off after five seconds with no POST beeps and > what I perceived to be excessive heat buildup around the area of the > power supply. The laptop is a hp pavilion dv1000. 1.6 bus and 512 ram. > > I monkeyed around with it a bit. ie. turning it on every time it shut > off and was eventually able to get the battery charged and then it > would stay on but with a black screen and two short POST beeps, which > in some computers indicates a normal boot. I attached an external > monitor, got the apparently normal post but still a black screen. I > kept repeating the boot process while placing the laptop screen at > different angles, in case the video cable to the inverter had been > pinched after dropping the laptop or some sort of similar impact. > Assuming normal boot and a display problem I pressed the enter button > to continue to boot windows and the laptop would churn for a few > seconds and then shut off. > > Finally I was able to get a flash of text on the attached monitor > which was the windows "boot in safe or normal" prompt. As soon as I > stopped applying pressure to the top of the laptop display that text > would disappear. Again by moving the laptop display during boot while > I applied pressure to the top of the display, and after many attempts > to find an orientation where the display worked, I was able to find an > place where the laptop display kept the message on the attached > monitor. I was then able to watch the windows boot process as it > failed to access the windows system directories, which appeared to be > corrupted and then it would shut down. > > I reinstalled from the original disks which had been kept with the > computer in the box it was thrown out in and with the external monitor > attached I was able to reinstall windows. I resized the disk volume > with gparted and installed Debian. After getting this far I assumed > the backlight inverter or its connection was failing and I started to > remove the display. In order to do that you have to remove the > keyboard. I removed the screws indicated by the service manual I had > downloaded, but the keyboard was stuck fast. It was so stuck that when > I was trying to remove it, I would look in the area between the part > of the keyboard I was able to lift and the part that would not > separate and it appeared to be held down with double sided tape. That > was not so. > > When I was finaly able to disengage the keyboard, I noticed a caramel > coloured residue on the plate the keyboard rests on. It looks like a > soft drink had been spilled and had soaked the paper label on the back > of the keyboard. I guess the glue dissolved and then re-hardened > essentially gluing the keyboard in place. I also took the faceplate > off the display to access the inverter and cable and noticed the same > caramel residue on the lower left corner of the display case. > > Before I search out an new inverter or cable, I was wondering if > anyone has any suggestions on how to clean the soft drink residue from > the components. At this point I am unsure whether the video problem is > in fact the inverter or cable or some sort of loading imbalance in the > related power supply or video components. The power supply, external > monitor attachment and the video port are all clustered in the area > where the liquid was apparently spilled. > > Right now as I type, if I pull the display forward the picture > disappears and then appears again in the new forward location. If I > push the display backwards the picture stays normal. This might be the > inverter or the cable. To help with the perceived heating problem I > keep the laptop elevated off the table to allow air to circulate > around the power supply. I really think that a good cleaning might > bring it back to normal service. I could try soap and water and dry > the components in rice or gel packs, but I'm afraid that there would > be some residue from the soap or minerals in the water. > > Any cleaning solutions are appreciated. My wife once spilled soy sauce in a laptop. Step o was of course to emmidiately turn it off and remove the battery and leave it that way until cleaned. You don't want to fry it by trying to turn it one with stuff in it shorting things out. So stop doing that. :) To clean the bits that got soy sauce in them, I disassembled everything, removed every keycap from the keyboard, the various plastic layers and such from the keyboard and a few bits of the electronics below, and soaked everything in warm water (tap water hot, not boiled) for a few minutes until the soy sauce all disolved. Then I left everything to dry for a couple of days and reassembled. Worked fine after that. The sugar/salt will cause short circuits (although not great ones) which likely explains why it keeps turning off and gets hot. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 16:04:07 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:04:07 -0500 Subject: OT cleaning laptop components- sugary liquid contamination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EF20377.4030802@rogers.com> Russell Reiter wrote: > Any cleaning solutions are appreciated. I have often cleaned circuit boards with hot water. You can then use alcohol to help remove the water, if necessary. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 16:15:57 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:15:57 -0500 Subject: OT cleaning laptop components- sugary liquid contamination In-Reply-To: <5153161.iBm4mjZlMj-sb60JjQlQz7I0729u30ZFQ@public.gmane.org> References: <5153161.iBm4mjZlMj@grouchy.120> Message-ID: <4EF2063D.7090908@rogers.com> Duncan MacGregor http://www.computing.net/howto/simple/keyboard/ wrote: > Cleaning finger gunge from the keytops is best done with q-tps and 'Fantastic'. Sugar laced drinks can be cleaned with hot water. Clean water is not harmful to electronics. In fact, circuit boards are cleaned with it or steam during manufacture and back when I was a computer tech I often used water. Just make sure to get it all off. You can use alcohol to help with that. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 19:56:12 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:56:12 -0500 Subject: Sound problems in Squeeze In-Reply-To: <20111216154729.GF27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111214201404.GA28616@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215164235.GA3778@watson-wilson.ca> <20111215170653.GB27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20111215173918.GA5070@watson-wilson.ca> <20111216154147.GA21142@watson-wilson.ca> <20111216154729.GF27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111221195612.GA6217@watson-wilson.ca> Here is an update on this should it plague anyone else. By configuring .asound to use Pules Citirx does not grab the Alsa device file. pcm.pulse { type pulse } ctl.pulse { type pulse } pcm.!default { type pulse } ctl.!default { type pulse } I have not had any sound problems since then. Thank you everyone for your input. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 19:57:58 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:57:58 -0500 Subject: Shell redirection Message-ID: <20111221195758.GB6217@watson-wilson.ca> Suppose I have a command: "time " How can I redirect the other command's stdout and stderr but not the output of time? -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:06:59 2011 From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:06:59 -0500 Subject: Shell redirection In-Reply-To: <20111221195758.GB6217-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111221195758.GB6217@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: time CMD > /some/file 2>&1 works for me using jshaw at jshaw:~$ bash --version GNU bash, version 4.1.5(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) jshaw at jshaw:~$ time ls -alh > /tmp/huh 2>&1 real 0m0.045s user 0m0.000s sys 0m0.000s All of my output is in /tmp/huh and the time output is on the console. -jason On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > Suppose I have a command: > > "time " > > How can I redirect the other command's stdout and stderr but not the > output of time? > > -- > Neil Watson > Linux/UNIX Consultant > http://watson-wilson.ca > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/**Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:07:15 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:07:15 -0500 Subject: Shell redirection In-Reply-To: <20111221195758.GB6217-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111221195758.GB6217@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4EF23C73.4070701@utoronto.ca> On 21/12/11 02:57 PM, Neil Watson wrote: > Suppose I have a command: > > "time " > > How can I redirect the other command's stdout and stderr but not the > output of time? time can write to a file with -o, and append to said file with -a. Is that enough to get you going? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:08:42 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:08:42 -0500 Subject: Shell redirection In-Reply-To: <20111221195758.GB6217-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111221195758.GB6217@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111221200842.GP27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 02:57:58PM -0500, Neil Watson wrote: > Suppose I have a command: > > "time " > > How can I redirect the other command's stdout and stderr but not the > output of time? Well you can send the output of time to a file with 'time -o filename command'. I don't think you can do what you wanted though otherwise. You could maybe do something like: time sh -c 'myactualcommand > blah 2> errorblah' Seems to work as far as I can tell. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:10:51 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:10:51 -0500 Subject: Shell redirection In-Reply-To: References: <20111221195758.GB6217@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111221201051.GQ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:06:59PM -0500, Jason Shaw wrote: > time CMD > /some/file 2>&1 works for me using > > jshaw at jshaw:~$ bash --version > GNU bash, version 4.1.5(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) > > jshaw at jshaw:~$ time ls -alh > /tmp/huh 2>&1 > > real 0m0.045s > user 0m0.000s > sys 0m0.000s > > All of my output is in /tmp/huh and the time output is on the console. That is a feature of bash using the builtin time. If you used /usr/bin/time instead that wouldn't be true. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:12:35 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:12:35 -0500 Subject: profiling a binary Message-ID: <20111221201235.GA6404@watson-wilson.ca> Greeting again, Upon the subject of the time command, my goal is to profile some Cfengine policy. I run cf-agent against some policy to see how it performs in terms of time and resource use. Make changes and run again to look for improvements. GNU time seems to be the best way at the moment. Is there another way? -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:14:43 2011 From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:14:43 -0500 Subject: Shell redirection In-Reply-To: <20111221201051.GQ27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111221195758.GB6217@watson-wilson.ca> <20111221201051.GQ27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Thanks for pointing that out, Lennart. /usr/bin/time definitely has some handy options. -jason On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:06:59PM -0500, Jason Shaw wrote: > > time CMD > /some/file 2>&1 works for me using > > > > jshaw at jshaw:~$ bash --version > > GNU bash, version 4.1.5(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) > > > > jshaw at jshaw:~$ time ls -alh > /tmp/huh 2>&1 > > > > real 0m0.045s > > user 0m0.000s > > sys 0m0.000s > > > > All of my output is in /tmp/huh and the time output is on the console. > > That is a feature of bash using the builtin time. > > If you used /usr/bin/time instead that wouldn't be true. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:33:27 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:33:27 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111208225943.GR9831-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> On 12/08/2011 05:59 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 04:54:41PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: >> My suggestion would be to get a commercial router that can be >> re-flashed with OpenWRT and/or Tomato Linux (I am rather partial to >> the Linksys WRT54GL type routers, but there are others). This means >> you have Linux level security, along with small footprint, and low >> power consumption. Best of all worlds. If you don't need wireless that >> can be turned off via the configuration menus and/or files (and for >> the truly paranoid you can remove the antennas...). > > WRT54GL specificaly is ancient, slow, resource limited, broadcom based > (a rather bad thing for wifi drivers in general), and runs rather hot. > > Really, what's to like? > > One of the Atheros MIPS24k based with 64MB ram on the other hand and > USB2 and such is way more interesting. Can you give some examples of such routers, please? Do any of them support wireless "N"? I have a friend looking for a router to replace his existing ISP-supplied router that is apparently not flexible enough. I had set up IPCop for him years ago but the PC on which it was running died and he would rather have an "appliance" that doesn't have any moving parts. I figure we can meet his needs and still have something that is based on Linux by using one of these Atheros MIPS24k routers you mentioned. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 20:57:04 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:57:04 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF24297.6080902-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:33:27PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Can you give some examples of such routers, please? Do any of them > support wireless "N"? I have a friend looking for a router to > replace his existing ISP-supplied router that is apparently not > flexible enough. I had set up IPCop for him years ago but the PC on > which it was running died and he would rather have an "appliance" > that doesn't have any moving parts. I figure we can meet his needs > and still have something that is based on Linux by using one of > these Atheros MIPS24k routers you mentioned. Well I use a dual band DIR-825 which is a 600MHz MIPS24k with abgn support (2.4 and 5ghz bands using all types). There are some cheaper models that are single band only (so bgn). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 21:14:21 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 16:14:21 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111221205704.GR27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:33:27PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> Can you give some examples of such routers, please? Do any of them >> support wireless "N"? I have a friend looking for a router to >> replace his existing ISP-supplied router that is apparently not >> flexible enough. I had set up IPCop for him years ago but the PC on >> which it was running died and he would rather have an "appliance" >> that doesn't have any moving parts. I figure we can meet his needs >> and still have something that is based on Linux by using one of >> these Atheros MIPS24k routers you mentioned. > > Well I use a dual band DIR-825 which is a 600MHz MIPS24k with abgn support > (2.4 and 5ghz bands using all types). > > There are some cheaper models that are single band only (so bgn). Ah, so like this...? http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/d-link-xtreme-wireless-n-router-dir-825/10111490.aspx http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/d-link/dir-825 And the OpenWRT project has a pretty decent directory of hardware they support: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/start There aren't terribly many routers on their list with 64MB of storage, so there's not a *huge* selection to pick from. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the models are reasonably available. Also rather interesting is the CeroWRT project: Note that the one model (Netlink WNDR3700) on which it runs is available for $99 at FutureShop/BestBuy: WNDR3700-100PAS -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 21:16:22 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 16:16:22 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111221205704.GR27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> On 12/21/2011 03:57 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:33:27PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> Can you give some examples of such routers, please? Do any of them >> support wireless "N"? I have a friend looking for a router to >> replace his existing ISP-supplied router that is apparently not >> flexible enough. I had set up IPCop for him years ago but the PC on >> which it was running died and he would rather have an "appliance" >> that doesn't have any moving parts. I figure we can meet his needs >> and still have something that is based on Linux by using one of >> these Atheros MIPS24k routers you mentioned. > > Well I use a dual band DIR-825 which is a 600MHz MIPS24k with abgn support > (2.4 and 5ghz bands using all types). > > There are some cheaper models that are single band only (so bgn). I presume you had to flash the firmware with OpenWRT (or was it Tomato?). If so, what does that do to the warranty? My friend is concerned about voiding the warranty. Is it easy to revert to the factory firmware? He also doesn't seem to care about wireless at all since he already has an Apple base station. When I searched for Atheros MIPS24k routers, the first hit I got was . That seemed pretty interesting. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 22:32:35 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:32:35 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111221223235.GS27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 04:14:21PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > Ah, so like this...? > http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/d-link-xtreme-wireless-n-router-dir-825/10111490.aspx > > http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/d-link/dir-825 > > And the OpenWRT project has a pretty decent directory of hardware they support: > http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/start > > There aren't terribly many routers on their list with 64MB of storage, > so there's not a *huge* selection to pick from. That's not > necessarily a bad thing, as long as the models are reasonably > available. > > Also rather interesting is the CeroWRT project: > Note that the one > model (Netlink WNDR3700) on which it runs is available for $99 at > FutureShop/BestBuy: WNDR3700-100PAS That is essentially the same hardware as the DIR-825. But actually seems a bit cheaper to buy. If you can find a v2 then you get 16MB flash rather than 8, which would be a nice improvement. 64MB ram is certainly nice to have, and while flash is nice too, an external USB stick or drive can always help with that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 21 22:40:49 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:40:49 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF24CA6.7070509-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 04:16:22PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > I presume you had to flash the firmware with OpenWRT (or was it > Tomato?). If so, what does that do to the warranty? My friend is > concerned about voiding the warranty. Is it easy to revert to the > factory firmware? He also doesn't seem to care about wireless at all > since he already has an Apple base station. Well in my case I still run dlink's stock firmware. I keep meaning to switch to openwrt, but just haven't got around to it. It works quite well with the stock firmware for my needs so far. > When I searched for Atheros MIPS24k routers, the first hit I got was > . That seemed > pretty interesting. Those are neat, but you do have to supply your own case and wifi cards and such. Too bad it does NOT have gigabit ports. The DIR-825 has a gigabit switch after all. I don't know if the CPU and wan interface is gigabit though. Probably not. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 03:00:26 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:00:26 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111221224049.GT27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Too bad it does NOT have gigabit ports. The DIR-825 has a gigabit switch Unless your Internet connection is greater than 100 Mb, gigabit won't give you much. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 03:03:59 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:03:59 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF29D4A.8000709-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> On 12/21/2011 10:00 PM, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> Too bad it does NOT have gigabit ports. The DIR-825 has a gigabit switch > > Unless your Internet connection is greater than 100 Mb, gigabit won't > give you much. I thought so, too, until I upgraded to a gigabit switch. It comes in handy when copying large files on the LAN. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 03:19:42 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:19:42 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF29E1F.3090000-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > I thought so, too, until I upgraded to a gigabit switch. It comes in > handy when copying large files on the LAN. There's no reason why the rest of your LAN can't be Gb. The switch takes care of the difference between ports. Unlike the days of coax & hubs, the different devices do not have to be the same speed. You could have 10 Mb, 100 Mb, Gb and 10 Gb (assuming the switch can handle all those speeds) on the same switch and it will all work together. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 03:39:43 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:39:43 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF2A1CE.3090903-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> On 12/21/2011 10:19 PM, James Knott wrote: > CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> I thought so, too, until I upgraded to a gigabit switch. It comes in >> handy when copying large files on the LAN. > > There's no reason why the rest of your LAN can't be Gb. The switch takes > care of the difference between ports. Unlike the days of coax & hubs, > the different devices do not have to be the same speed. You could have > 10 Mb, 100 Mb, Gb and 10 Gb (assuming the switch can handle all those > speeds) on the same switch and it will all work together. Sure. That assumes there is another switch on the network. For many people, that isn't the case. They'll just use the switch in the router. By the way, I found out that just because modern switches can auto-negotiate the connection doesn't mean that it works as you'd expect in all cases. I had installed a consumer-grade D-Link gigabit switch at the colo facility in Toronto where we have some servers so that we could connect multiple servers to one switch port. Even though the colo facility provided a 100Mb/s port, the switch was a gigabit switch, and all the servers had gigabit NICs, the best we could manage on the servers was 10Mb/s. The colo facility's Cisco switch was configured to be 100Mb/s and consumer-grade switches like the D-Link apparently don't auto-negotiate down to 100Mb/s as I thought it would. It fell to the lowest common denominator, 10Mb/s. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 05:50:42 2011 From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 00:50:42 -0500 Subject: Bash question In-Reply-To: <20111221154257.GN27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1324429681.2208.21.camel@jimslaptop> <20111220212939.f0d7441a.hgibson@eol.ca> <1324435863.2208.27.camel@jimslaptop> <4EF15029.7030303@rogers.com> <20111221154257.GN27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1324533042.2215.28.camel@jimslaptop> Thanks a lot everyone for helping me with this script. I'll try to digest all these and put something together that does what I need. Interesting to see all the variations that are possible. Much appreciated. Jim On Wed, 2011-12-21 at 10:42 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:19:05PM -0500, Bill Heagy wrote: > > I think something like > > > > for i in `ls [0-9]* | cut -b1-7|uniq`;do foobar ${i}*pdf -o new${i}.pdf;done > > The ${I}*pdf is essentially doing an ls. > > > will work. This assumes that all files starting with a digit are > > eligible: adjust as required. I don't know the syntax for your > > pdftk command: adjust this as required also. Beware using ">" for > > redirecting output though: that requires careful use of quotes. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 13:41:06 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 08:41:06 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF2A67F.50703-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4EF33372.9060107@rogers.com> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On 12/21/2011 10:19 PM, James Knott wrote: >> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >>> I thought so, too, until I upgraded to a gigabit switch. It comes in >>> handy when copying large files on the LAN. >> >> There's no reason why the rest of your LAN can't be Gb. The switch takes >> care of the difference between ports. Unlike the days of coax & hubs, >> the different devices do not have to be the same speed. You could have >> 10 Mb, 100 Mb, Gb and 10 Gb (assuming the switch can handle all those >> speeds) on the same switch and it will all work together. > > Sure. That assumes there is another switch on the network. For many > people, that isn't the case. They'll just use the switch in the router. > > By the way, I found out that just because modern switches can > auto-negotiate the connection doesn't mean that it works as you'd > expect in all cases. I had installed a consumer-grade D-Link gigabit > switch at the colo facility in Toronto where we have some servers so > that we could connect multiple servers to one switch port. Even though > the colo facility provided a 100Mb/s port, the switch was a gigabit > switch, and all the servers had gigabit NICs, the best we could manage > on the servers was 10Mb/s. The colo facility's Cisco switch was > configured to be 100Mb/s and consumer-grade switches like the D-Link > apparently don't auto-negotiate down to 100Mb/s as I thought it would. > It fell to the lowest common denominator, 10Mb/s. That board linked to in a previous article has only 2 Ethernet ports. This means a switch will be required, if it is used with more than one computer. As for that D-Link, there may be problems with some devices, but that doesn't rule out what I said. Unlike hubs, switches have a separate interface for every port. This means each port can negotiate (or be configured in managed switches) to any speed (actually bandwidth). The switch will then move the data around between the various ports as required. There is no place within the switch, other than on the line side of the interfaces where you have speeds such as 100 Mb. The switch bus will have some maximum amount of capacity or bandwidth, with which to handle all the traffic. On some switches, it may be possible to bump into that limit. BTW, why would you use a consumer grade device in a colo site? It likely couldn't handle the load if those servers were busy. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 14:01:51 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 09:01:51 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF2A67F.50703-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20111222140151.GA15390@watson-wilson.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:39:43PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >gigabit switch, and all the servers had gigabit NICs, the best we >could manage on the servers was 10Mb/s. The colo facility's Cisco >switch was configured to be 100Mb/s and consumer-grade switches like >the D-Link apparently don't auto-negotiate down to 100Mb/s as I >thought it would. It fell to the lowest common denominator, 10Mb/s. I blame Cisco for this. Cisco often recommend manually configuring their switch ports to a set speed. This often breaks auto-negotiation. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 15:06:41 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 10:06:41 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111222140151.GA15390-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> <20111222140151.GA15390@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4EF34781.8060403@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:39:43PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> gigabit switch, and all the servers had gigabit NICs, the best we >> could manage on the servers was 10Mb/s. The colo facility's Cisco >> switch was configured to be 100Mb/s and consumer-grade switches like >> the D-Link apparently don't auto-negotiate down to 100Mb/s as I >> thought it would. It fell to the lowest common denominator, 10Mb/s. > > I blame Cisco for this. Cisco often recommend manually configuring > their switch ports to a set speed. This often breaks auto-negotiation. > Yep. If auto-negotiation fails, the connection is supposed to default to the lowest common denominator, which is 10 Mb half duplex. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 15:52:38 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 10:52:38 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF29D4A.8000709-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111222155238.GU27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:00:26PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Unless your Internet connection is greater than 100 Mb, gigabit > won't give you much. It will between the local PCs connected through the switch. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 15:55:40 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 10:55:40 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF2A67F.50703-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20111222155540.GV27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:39:43PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Sure. That assumes there is another switch on the network. For many > people, that isn't the case. They'll just use the switch in the > router. > > By the way, I found out that just because modern switches can > auto-negotiate the connection doesn't mean that it works as you'd > expect in all cases. I had installed a consumer-grade D-Link gigabit > switch at the colo facility in Toronto where we have some servers so > that we could connect multiple servers to one switch port. Even > though the colo facility provided a 100Mb/s port, the switch was a > gigabit switch, and all the servers had gigabit NICs, the best we > could manage on the servers was 10Mb/s. The colo facility's Cisco > switch was configured to be 100Mb/s and consumer-grade switches like > the D-Link apparently don't auto-negotiate down to 100Mb/s as I > thought it would. It fell to the lowest common denominator, 10Mb/s. It's more likely that it just didn't know what to do when the other switch didn't want to negotiate. I personally hate when people turn off autonegotiation, but some networking people seem to think they know better and that forcing 100mbit full duplex because that's what they want is better. They then forget to bother telling other people that that is the setting you must use. Of course a consumer switch generally has no settings, so it always negotiates. Not a good combination. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 16:07:56 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:07:56 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111222155238.GU27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <20111222155238.GU27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EF355DC.8000807@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:00:26PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >> Unless your Internet connection is greater than 100 Mb, gigabit >> won't give you much. > It will between the local PCs connected through the switch. > I thought my comments were about that board mentioned in a previous message. It has two ports, one for the Internet side and the other, the local network. If you connect more than one computer to it, you will need a separate switch. Since each switch port is completely independent of the others, it can run at any supported speed. However, the internet connection is limited to whatever your ISP provides. So, if you have a Gb switch connecting your LAN, any Gb capable devices will be able to operate among themselves at that rate. Having a 100 Mb device (that router board) connected will not affect that traffic. On the other hand, any traffic going to/from the Internet will be limited to whatever your ISP & the net allows. As I mentioned, switches are quite different from the old hubs and coax networks, where everything had to run at the same speed. With a switch, you should be able to transparently run any mix of speed and even half/full duplex, with throughput limited only by the characteristics of the individual devices connected to the switch. So, getting back to that board, you can connect it to a Gb switch and that one switch port will run at 100 Mb, while all the other ports can run at 1 Gb. Even then, the actual throughput to the Internet will depend on the ISP and beyond. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 18:08:41 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:08:41 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF33372.9060107-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> <4EF33372.9060107@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EF37229.6050509@dinamis.com> On 12/22/2011 08:41 AM, James Knott wrote: > That board linked to in a previous article has only 2 Ethernet ports. > This means a switch will be required, if it is used with more than one > computer. I was referring to the router with 4 switch ports. That's often sufficient for people. We're talking about two different things, apparently. :) > As for that D-Link, there may be problems with some devices, but that > doesn't rule out what I said. According to the network guys at the colo facility, this is something they've seen with all unmanaged switches. > Unlike hubs, switches have a separate > interface for every port. This means each port can negotiate (or be > configured in managed switches) to any speed (actually bandwidth). The > switch will then move the data around between the various ports as > required. There is no place within the switch, other than on the line > side of the interfaces where you have speeds such as 100 Mb. The switch > bus will have some maximum amount of capacity or bandwidth, with which > to handle all the traffic. On some switches, it may be possible to bump > into that limit. > > BTW, why would you use a consumer grade device in a colo site? It likely > couldn't handle the load if those servers were busy. 1. Cost. 2. The servers never saturate the 100Mb/s connection. 3. I wanted the switch mostly to accommodate the out-of-band remote access cards. I don't really care if that interface is slow but if it slows down the main interface to 10Mb/s half-duplex, that's a problem. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 19:25:24 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:25:24 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF37229.6050509-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> <4EF33372.9060107@rogers.com> <4EF37229.6050509@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4EF38424.606@rogers.com> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > According to the network guys at the colo facility, this is something > they've seen with all unmanaged switches. There's something strange there. They should work properly. I have combined managed & un-managed switches and never had an issue. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 20:21:43 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 15:21:43 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF38424.606-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> <4EF33372.9060107@rogers.com> <4EF37229.6050509@dinamis.com> <4EF38424.606@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 2:25 PM, James Knott wrote: > CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> >> According to the network guys at the colo facility, this is something >> they've seen with all unmanaged switches. > > There's something strange there. ?They should work properly. ?I have > combined managed & un-managed switches and never had an issue. Based on the dumb things that people do when faced with operating, erm, technologies that enable room for (stupid) choices, I don't think it's too surprising that there'd be some network admins out there that would configure their systems in ways that might fill you with WTF. After all, programmers have some ridonkulous habits... http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Date-Array.aspx http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/JavaScript-JSON-Parsing.aspx http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-WET-Cart.aspx -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 21:16:50 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:16:50 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: References: <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> <4EF33372.9060107@rogers.com> <4EF37229.6050509@dinamis.com> <4EF38424.606@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20111222211650.GW27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 03:21:43PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > Based on the dumb things that people do when faced with operating, > erm, technologies that enable room for (stupid) choices, I don't think > it's too surprising that there'd be some network admins out there that > would configure their systems in ways that might fill you with WTF. > After all, programmers have some ridonkulous habits... > > http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Date-Array.aspx > http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/JavaScript-JSON-Parsing.aspx > http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-WET-Cart.aspx That last one is especially awful. I many years ago wrote an X font selector dialog in that style. Way too much copy and paste and edit a few bits. Apparently I didn't know how to code properly yet, but hey it worked, and it only took 16000 lines of C++ (written in one day) to do it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 21:53:29 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:53:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: OCZ Revodrive (PCIe x4) vs. SATA3 SSD (6Gbps)? Message-ID: <1324590809.91207.YahooMailNeo@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi All, Anyone with hands-on experience with OCZ Revedrive (PCIe x4)? I'm curious whether by-passing SATA controller makes any real world difference. On paper, both Revodrive and SATA3 SSD are 500MB/s.? The only difference is Revodrive is PCIe card, and regular SSD is 2.5" SATA3 harddisk. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 21:55:55 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:55:55 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA Message-ID: Something I first heard about via Fabio Neves... Seems domain registrar Go Daddy is supporting SOPA ( http://support.godaddy.com/godaddy/go-daddys-position-on-sopa/ ). SOPA is a toxic bit of legislation working its way though the US Congress ( www.popularmechanics.com/science/mythbusters/articles/mythbuster-adam-savage-sopa-could-destroy-the-internet-as-we-know-it-6620300 ). I would strongly recommend anyone using Go Daddy as a registrar move. The next question, as a Canadian living in Canada but with a domain hosted via a USA based (non-Go Daddy) registrar, where do I move my .org so as to be as immune (as is possible) to the impact of SOPA? Thanks. Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:20:50 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:20:50 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It would be a conflict of interest for me to recommend any registrar over another, but I can certainly point you to an official list of possibilities: http://pir.org/get/registrars That list includes indication of the nationality of registrars. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 22:26:33 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:26:33 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EF3AE99.4020707@alteeve.com> On 12/22/2011 04:55 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Something I first heard about via Fabio Neves... > > Seems domain registrar Go Daddy is supporting SOPA ( > http://support.godaddy.com/godaddy/go-daddys-position-on-sopa/ ). SOPA > is a toxic bit of legislation working its way though the US Congress ( > www.popularmechanics.com/science/mythbusters/articles/mythbuster-adam-savage-sopa-could-destroy-the-internet-as-we-know-it-6620300 > ). > > I would strongly recommend anyone using Go Daddy as a registrar move. > > The next question, as a Canadian living in Canada but with a domain > hosted via a USA based (non-Go Daddy) registrar, where do I move my > .org so as to be as immune (as is possible) to the impact of SOPA? > > Thanks. > > > Colin. I use http://www.mydomain.com/ and http://www.domainsatcost.ca/ (for .ca). -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "omg my singularity battery is dead again. stupid hawking radiation." - epitron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 23:25:36 2011 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 18:25:36 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Something I first heard about via Fabio Neves... > > Seems domain registrar Go Daddy is supporting SOPA ( > http://support.godaddy.com/godaddy/go-daddys-position-on-sopa/ ). SOPA > is a toxic bit of legislation working its way though the US Congress ( > www.popularmechanics.com/science/mythbusters/articles/mythbuster-adam-savage-sopa-could-destroy-the-internet-as-we-know-it-6620300 > ). > > I would strongly recommend anyone using Go Daddy as a registrar move. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Colin. I have a few domains at GoDaddy and another New Years Eve resolution ... Get the heck away from GoDaddy. -- ? ? // [ - .- ] ?,< http://www.circuidipity.com [ ?# ?]\/ OOO -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 00:07:29 2011 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:07:29 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111222140151.GA15390-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> <20111222140151.GA15390@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111223000729.GL32262@adb.ca> Neil Watson wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:39:43PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > >gigabit switch, and all the servers had gigabit NICs, the best we > >could manage on the servers was 10Mb/s. The colo facility's Cisco > >switch was configured to be 100Mb/s and consumer-grade switches like > >the D-Link apparently don't auto-negotiate down to 100Mb/s as I > >thought it would. It fell to the lowest common denominator, 10Mb/s. > > I blame Cisco for this. Cisco often recommend manually configuring > their switch ports to a set speed. This often breaks auto-negotiation. I'm aware of at least one colo facility in the GTA that uses Cisco gear and buys that old chestnut. The story as it was told to me was that first generation Sun and Cisco Fast Ethernet (100MB) gear didn't quite autonegotiate correctly and that was the workaround needed back then, with it subsequently hanging around like a bad superstition. With a managed switch, or mii-tool on a Linux box, you too can force your port to a manually-agreed-on speed and duplex and join the cargo cult. You could open a ticket with your provider asking them to properly enable autonegotiation on your port, reminding them that it's the 21st century now. If they're still running gear that can't autonegotiate, I could put them in touch with my buddy who works for the Ontario E-Waste Recycling Program. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 02:55:52 2011 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:55:52 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > The next question, as a Canadian living in Canada but with a domain > hosted via a USA based (non-Go Daddy) registrar, where do I move my > .org so as to be as immune (as is possible) to the impact of SOPA? I think that, of all the crap that is SOPA, this bothers me the most. There's no sense of jurisdiction; where your content is hosted is almost irrelevant. It won't end well. Some Canadian perspective: "Geist: U.S. could claim millions of Canadian domain names in piracy battle" "The Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) and what it means for Canadians" "SOPA, theft and the new Cold War" "If SOPA Passes, Impact Will Devastate Reddit. How Many Others?" was also an interesting read: -- ? Scott Elcomb ? @psema4 on Twitter / Identi.ca ? Atomic OS: Self Contained Microsystems ? http://code.google.com/p/atomos/ ? Member of the Pirate Party of Canada ? http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 03:04:26 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 03:04:26 +0000 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA Message-ID: <1933871667-1324609464-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1647507380-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> Actually, I think, if you've got more than the .ORG extension, you should have a look at ICANN's accredited registrar list. The advantage of the list is that the appropriate extension handled by the registrar is listed, as is their country of origin. Personally, I'd only be concerned if this was adopted in Canada, as my domain is registered in Canada by a Canadian registrar. For those so inclined, here is the list: http://www.icann.org/en/registrars/accredited-list.html ------Original Message------ From: Christopher Browne Sender: owner-tlug at ss.org To: tlug at ss.org ReplyTo: tlug at ss.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA Sent: Dec 22, 2011 17:20 It would be a conflict of interest for me to recommend any registrar over another, but I can certainly point you to an official list of possibilities: http://pir.org/get/registrars That list includes indication of the nationality of registrars. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 03:14:44 2011 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:14:44 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > It would be a conflict of interest for me to recommend any registrar > over another, but I can certainly point you to an official list of > possibilities: > ? http://pir.org/get/registrars > > That list includes indication of the nationality of registrars. Christopher you are among friends (or at least I hope everyone here is a friend). If I were you I would note the likes of http://pir.org/get/registrars and then note (without being pushy about it) your employer (http://www.afilias.info/) is a domain registrar firm. In other words note a overview list of all players and then note where your sympathies are (or at least I hope you favor your employer's services). Colin > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 03:19:45 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 03:19:45 +0000 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA Message-ID: <2083232520-1324610384-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-102387564-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> SG1tLCBmb3JnaXZlIG1lIGlmIG15IGtub3dsZWRnZSBpcyBhIGJpdCBvdXQgb2YgZGF0ZSBieSBh IGZldyBtb250aHMsIGJ1dCBBZmlsaWFzIGlzIGEgcmVnaXN0cnkgcHJvdmlkZXIsIHNpbWlsYXIg dG8gVmVyaVNpZ24uICBUaGV5J3JlLCBhcyBmYXIgYXMgSSBrbm93LCBub3QgYSByZWdpc3RyYXIg ZGlyZWN0bHkuDQoNCklmIHRoYXQncyB0aGUgY2FzZSwgdGhlcmUncyBubyB2ZXN0ZWQgaW50ZXJl c3QgZm9yIHRoZW0gdG8gcmVjb21tZW5kIGFueSBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIHJlZ2lzdHJhciwgYWx0aG91 Z2ggSSBjYW4gY2VydGFpbmx5IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhlIGNhcGFjaXR5IGZvciBhIGNvbmZsaWN0 IG9mIGludGVyZXN0Lg0KLS0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogQ29saW4g TWNHcmVnb3INClNlbmRlcjogb3duZXItdGx1Z0Bzcy5vcmcNClRvOiB0bHVnQHNzLm9yZw0KUmVw bHlUbzogdGx1Z0Bzcy5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbVExVR106IFNlbWktT1Q6IEdvIERhZGR5 IGFuZCBTT1BBDQpTZW50OiBEZWMgMjIsIDIwMTEgMjI6MTQNCg0KT24gVGh1LCBEZWMgMjIsIDIw MTEgYXQgNToyMCBQTSwgQ2hyaXN0b3BoZXIgQnJvd25lIDxjYmJyb3duZUBnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdy b3RlOg0KPiBJdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBhIGNvbmZsaWN0IG9mIGludGVyZXN0IGZvciBtZSB0byByZWNv bW1lbmQgYW55IHJlZ2lzdHJhcg0KPiBvdmVyIGFub3RoZXIsIGJ1dCBJIGNhbiBjZXJ0YWlubHkg cG9pbnQgeW91IHRvIGFuIG9mZmljaWFsIGxpc3Qgb2YNCj4gcG9zc2liaWxpdGllczoNCj4goCBo dHRwOi8vcGlyLm9yZy9nZXQvcmVnaXN0cmFycw0KPg0KPiBUaGF0IGxpc3QgaW5jbHVkZXMgaW5k aWNhdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgbmF0aW9uYWxpdHkgb2YgcmVnaXN0cmFycy4NCg0KQ2hyaXN0b3BoZXIg eW91IGFyZSBhbW9uZyBmcmllbmRzIChvciBhdCBsZWFzdCBJIGhvcGUgZXZlcnlvbmUgaGVyZSBp cw0KYSBmcmllbmQpLg0KDQpJZiBJIHdlcmUgeW91IEkgd291bGQgbm90ZSB0aGUgbGlrZXMgb2Yg IGh0dHA6Ly9waXIub3JnL2dldC9yZWdpc3RyYXJzDQphbmQgdGhlbiBub3RlICh3aXRob3V0IGJl aW5nIHB1c2h5IGFib3V0IGl0KSB5b3VyIGVtcGxveWVyDQooaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hZmlsaWFzLmlu Zm8vKSBpcyBhIGRvbWFpbiByZWdpc3RyYXIgZmlybS4gSW4gb3RoZXIgd29yZHMNCm5vdGUgYSBv dmVydmlldyBsaXN0IG9mIGFsbCBwbGF5ZXJzIGFuZCB0aGVuIG5vdGUgd2hlcmUgeW91cg0Kc3lt cGF0aGllcyBhcmUgKG9yIGF0IGxlYXN0IEkgaG9wZSB5b3UgZmF2b3IgeW91ciBlbXBsb3llcidz DQpzZXJ2aWNlcykuDQoNCkNvbGluDQoNCj4gLS0NCj4gV2hlbiBjb25mcm9udGVkIGJ5IGEgZGlm ZmljdWx0IHByb2JsZW0sIHNvbHZlIGl0IGJ5IHJlZHVjaW5nIGl0IHRvIHRoZQ0KPiBxdWVzdGlv biwgIkhvdyB3b3VsZCB0aGUgTG9uZSBSYW5nZXIgaGFuZGxlIHRoaXM/Ig0KPiAtLQ0KPiBUaGUg VG9yb250byBMaW51eCBVc2VycyBHcm91cC4goCCgIKBNZWV0aW5nczogaHR0cDovL2d0YWx1Zy5v cmcvDQo+IFRMVUcgcmVxdWVzdHM6IExpbnV4IHRvcGljcywgTm8gSFRNTCwgd3JhcCB0ZXh0IGJl bG93IDgwIGNvbHVtbnMNCj4gSG93IHRvIFVOU1VCU0NSSUJFOiBodHRwOi8vZ3RhbHVnLm9yZy93 aWtpL01haWxpbmdfbGlzdHMNCi0tDQpUaGUgVG9yb250byBMaW51eCBVc2VycyBHcm91cC4gICAg ICBNZWV0aW5nczogaHR0cDovL2d0YWx1Zy5vcmcvDQpUTFVHIHJlcXVlc3RzOiBMaW51eCB0b3Bp Y3MsIE5vIEhUTUwsIHdyYXAgdGV4dCBiZWxvdyA4MCBjb2x1bW5zDQpIb3cgdG8gVU5TVUJTQ1JJ QkU6IGh0dHA6Ly9ndGFsdWcub3JnL3dpa2kvTWFpbGluZ19saXN0cw0KDQpTZW50IGZyb20gbXkg QmxhY2tCZXJyeSBkZXZpY2Ugb24gdGhlIFJvZ2VycyBXaXJlbGVzcyBOZXR3b3Jr -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 03:53:38 2011 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ted) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:53:38 -0500 Subject: OCZ Revodrive (PCIe x4) vs. SATA3 SSD (6Gbps)? In-Reply-To: <1324590809.91207.YahooMailNeo-CtIdhJAQs3NeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <1324590809.91207.YahooMailNeo@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EF3FB42.7050002@gmail.com> There are revo's that go much higher then that, and that is where you blow-away the sata3. I was about to buy one, the 1.5gb/s one, but the "as little as" 10,000 write cycles still bugs me, i bought 32 gb ram instead for 300$, and have very fast ram drives :) (much faster then pcie x4 even). -tl On 12/22/2011 04:53 PM, William Park wrote: > Hi All, > > Anyone with hands-on experience with OCZ Revedrive (PCIe x4)? > > I'm curious whether by-passing SATA controller makes any real world difference. > On paper, both Revodrive and SATA3 SSD are 500MB/s. The only difference > is Revodrive is PCIe card, and regular SSD is 2.5" SATA3 harddisk. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 04:24:47 2011 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:24:47 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA Message-ID: <8084147703172855605@unknownmsgid> That's the badness of SOPA. You can still be sued in a US court even if your domain is not in the US. I am using Sibername right now. Sent from my mobile On 2011-12-22, at 16:56, Colin McGregor wrote: > Something I first heard about via Fabio Neves... > > Seems domain registrar Go Daddy is supporting SOPA ( > http://support.godaddy.com/godaddy/go-daddys-position-on-sopa/ ). SOPA > is a toxic bit of legislation working its way though the US Congress ( > www.popularmechanics.com/science/mythbusters/articles/mythbuster-adam-savage-sopa-could-destroy-the-internet-as-we-know-it-6620300 > ). > > I would strongly recommend anyone using Go Daddy as a registrar move. > > The next question, as a Canadian living in Canada but with a domain > hosted via a USA based (non-Go Daddy) registrar, where do I move my > .org so as to be as immune (as is possible) to the impact of SOPA? > > Thanks. > > > Colin. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 09:46:25 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 04:46:25 -0500 Subject: OCZ Revodrive (PCIe x4) vs. SATA3 SSD (6Gbps)? In-Reply-To: <4EF3FB42.7050002-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1324590809.91207.YahooMailNeo@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EF3FB42.7050002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111223094624.GA10149@node1.opengeometry.net> My root filesystem can be trimmed down to 7GB. So, is there a way to create 16GB ramdisk and use that as root device? I mean, sort of ramdisk over a real disk, so that you can keep the data after reboot. -- William On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:53:38PM -0500, Ted wrote: > There are revo's that go much higher then that, and that is where you > blow-away the sata3. > I was about to buy one, the 1.5gb/s one, but the "as little as" 10,000 > write cycles still bugs me, > i bought 32 gb ram instead for 300$, and have very fast ram drives :) > (much faster then pcie x4 even). > > -tl > > On 12/22/2011 04:53 PM, William Park wrote: > >Hi All, > > > >Anyone with hands-on experience with OCZ Revedrive (PCIe x4)? > > > >I'm curious whether by-passing SATA controller makes any real world > >difference. > >On paper, both Revodrive and SATA3 SSD are 500MB/s. The only difference > >is Revodrive is PCIe card, and regular SSD is 2.5" SATA3 harddisk. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 13:06:03 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 08:06:03 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: <2083232520-1324610384-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-102387564--AsA4DumeTO5B3jEAhgDvjWwcY1zWLNb1@public.gmane.org> References: <2083232520-1324610384-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-102387564-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: > Hmm, forgive me if my knowledge is a bit out of date by a few months, but Afilias is a registry provider, similar to VeriSign. ?They're, as far as I know, not a registrar directly. Yep, just so. Registrars are our customers, and there are obligations to deal with them equitably. > If that's the case, there's no vested interest for them to recommend any particular registrar, although I can certainly understand the capacity for a conflict of interest. It would be a conflict of interest for me to recommend a registrar, as substantially all of them are customers of my employer. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 14:16:03 2011 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 00:16:03 +1000 (EST) Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth In-Reply-To: <4EEC16E5.3090608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4EEC023A.9060308@rogers.com> <4EEC16E5.3090608@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, James Knott wrote: > Thomas Milne wrote: >> Not only that, but the URL isn't even BBC. The article gets more and more suspicious as it goes along :) I've read on various science sites that physicists now think that TV & radio signals eminating from Earth degrade beyond recognition well before they get to even Alpha Centauri. > Not only that, but if aliens actually watched some of those TV shows, they'd > conclude there was no intelligent life here. ;-) "And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth" -- The Galaxy Song, Monty Python Cheers, Rob (who is late to the thread) -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December 1250) From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 14:25:43 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:25:43 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111223142543.GA29118@watson-wilson.ca> It seems to me that this is another example of how the Internet can route around problems. Those determined to avoid the SOPA net will just move their sites, servers, domains and networks to countries outside of ARIN. This will be especially true should the US government, on behalf of the big media corps, have a go at websites dedicated to encryption and P2P software development. Overnight these very savvy people will move their sites from .net to .ru or .ch. It's a battle that cannot be won. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 14:59:12 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:59:12 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: <20111223142543.GA29118-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111223142543.GA29118@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > This will be especially true should the US government, on behalf of the > big media corps, have a go at websites dedicated to encryption and P2P > software development. Overnight these very savvy people will move their > sites from .net to .ru or .ch. ?It's a battle that cannot be won. I'm not sure I'd want to put my infrastructure into hands that aren't historically terribly far away from pretty visible despotism. You might be jumping from one problem into one that you weren't expecting to be a bigger one. But if you're out to solve your "SOPA problem" by detaching from US influence, it would be rather dumb to detach one "US tentacle" whilst leaving a whole bunch of others attached to your services. And there's a different "public policy" that can happen, then. Supposing all the services worried about SOPA jump over to .ch and .ru, that might give US legislators a premise to block them. Not a *certain* policy change, but it should be appreciated that they are not incapable of noticing and reacting to such changes. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 15:05:48 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:05:48 -0500 Subject: [OT] 47 year old television signals bouncing back to Earth In-Reply-To: References: <4EEC023A.9060308@rogers.com> <4EEC16E5.3090608@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4EF498CC.8090400@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > I've read on various science sites that physicists now think that TV & > radio signals eminating from Earth degrade beyond recognition well > before they get to even Alpha Centauri. Signal strength decreases with the square of distance and eventually reaches the point where it's below the noise level and unrecoverable. High gain antennas can reduce, but not eliminate this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 15:06:00 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:06:00 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: <20111223142543.GA29118@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111223150600.GA30448@watson-wilson.ca> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 09:59:12AM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: >And there's a different "public policy" that can happen, then. >Supposing all the services worried about SOPA jump over to .ch and >.ru, that might give US legislators a premise to block them. Not a >*certain* policy change, but it should be appreciated that they are >not incapable of noticing and reacting to such changes. In response to this have mirrors in two dozen country TLD's. Unless enough countries are prepared to shut down a significant part of the Internet the US and other SOPA participants are wasting tax dollars on a shell game. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 15:40:48 2011 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:40:48 -0500 Subject: OCZ Revodrive (PCIe x4) vs. SATA3 SSD (6Gbps)? In-Reply-To: <20111223094624.GA10149-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1324590809.91207.YahooMailNeo@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EF3FB42.7050002@gmail.com> <20111223094624.GA10149@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20111223154048.GX27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 04:46:25AM -0500, William Park wrote: > My root filesystem can be trimmed down to 7GB. So, is there a way to > create 16GB ramdisk and use that as root device? I mean, sort of > ramdisk over a real disk, so that you can keep the data after reboot. Linux's disk cache already covers an awful lot. And conviniently caches the stuff you use, without wasting ram on the stuff you don't. Loading that ramdisk each boot would slow your boot time a lot. There is unionfs, but that basicly allows you to have a readonly filesystem that all writes go to a different filesystem. That's not helpful to do with a ramdisk, since then you loose all changes on reboot. There does exist battery backed ram disks as far as I know, and those would make some sense since they would survice reboots. For example: http://techreport.com/articles.x/16255 -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 22 16:12:03 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:12:03 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111222155540.GV27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> <20111222155540.GV27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4EF356D3.5030109@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I personally hate when people turn off autonegotiation, but some > networking people seem to think they know better and that forcing 100mbit > full duplex because that's what they want is better. They then forget > to bother telling other people that that is the setting you must use. > > Of course a consumer switch generally has no settings, so it always > negotiates. Not a good combination. Yep. I have configure many industrial level switches and always use auto-negotiate, unless there was some specific reason for manual config. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 16:25:07 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:25:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Colin McGregor | I would strongly recommend anyone using Go Daddy as a registrar move. Darn. I wish I'd realized this a week ago, before I renewed for 3 years. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 17:08:27 2011 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 12:08:27 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <20111223000729.GL32262-SACILpcuo74@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> <20111222140151.GA15390@watson-wilson.ca> <20111223000729.GL32262@adb.ca> Message-ID: <4EF4B58B.6020800@dinamis.com> On 12/22/2011 07:07 PM, Anthony de Boer wrote: > I'm aware of at least one colo facility in the GTA that uses Cisco gear > and buys that old chestnut. The story as it was told to me was that > first generation Sun and Cisco Fast Ethernet (100MB) gear didn't quite > autonegotiate correctly and that was the workaround needed back then, > with it subsequently hanging around like a bad superstition. > > With a managed switch, or mii-tool on a Linux box, you too can force > your port to a manually-agreed-on speed and duplex and join the cargo > cult. I've used mii-tool to do this in another colo facility that had the same issue but in that case, the server was connected directly to the colo-supplied switch port. I was renting the server from the colo facility and they blamed Debian claiming that none of the Windows servers they were hosting or any of the other Linux servers had the same problem. It was only after I started dealing with the colo facility in Toronto that I understood the issue. Before that, it was a complete mystery to me as to why I had to force 100Mb/s bi-directional with mii-tool. I thought it was something specific to the hardware that they had provided and had just shrugged it off and moved on. mii-tool made no difference in the colo facility in Toronto because there was an unmanaged switch in between the servers and the colo-supplied switch port. > You could open a ticket with your provider asking them to properly > enable autonegotiation on your port, reminding them that it's the 21st > century now. I haven't had any luck on that one with the colo facilities I've dealt with. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 17:24:20 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 12:24:20 -0500 Subject: Certificates - openLDAP on Debian ? Message-ID: Hi pal, I have been trying to enable ldaps on openLDAP running on Debian and its proving impossible because openLDAP is compiled against gnutls and it apparently do not work well with openSSL generated certificate. I have a wild card certificate bought from GeoCert and I was planning to use it, so generating a certificate using gnutls does not sound like a viable option, since GeoCert will not reissue it Have someone here managed to go around this problem? This is the error I am getting when I try restarting openLDAP with LDAPS activated tionContext ) ) Dec 23 16:48:07 enigma slapd[3507]: main: TLS init def ctx failed: -1 Dec 23 16:48:07 enigma slapd[3507]: slapd destroy: freeing system resources. Dec 23 16:48:07 enigma slapd[3507]: syncinfo_free: rid=226 Dec 23 16:48:07 enigma slapd[3507]: slapd stopped. Dec 23 16:48:07 enigma slapd[3507]: connections_destroy: nothing to destroy. root at enigma:~# vi /etc/ldap/slapd.d/cn\=config.ldif The same setup on redhat Enterprise 6 works fine. The pertinent configuration file looks like this root at enigma:~# cat /tmp/cn\=config.ldif dn: cn=config objectClass: olcGlobal cn: config olcArgsFile: /var/run/slapd/slapd.args olcPidFile: /var/run/slapd/slapd.pid olcToolThreads: 1 structuralObjectClass: olcGlobal entryUUID: f8f83668-bf9d-1030-9487-37e3f5733c9d creatorsName: cn=config createTimestamp: 20111220213316Z olcLogLevel: -1 olcTLSCACertificateFile: /etc/ssl/certs/GeoCert.int.pem olcTLSCertificateFile: /etc/ssl/certs/example.pem olcTLSCertificateKeyFile: /etc/ssl/private/example.key entryCSN: 20111222165552.851957Z#000000#000#000000 modifiersName: cn=admin,cn=config modifyTimestamp: 20111222165552Z root at enigma:~# ldd /usr/sbin/slapd linux-vdso.so.1 => (0x00007fff548b9000) libldap_r-2.4.so.2 => /usr/lib/libldap_r-2.4.so.2 (0x00007fafd2eed000) liblber-2.4.so.2 => /usr/lib/liblber-2.4.so.2 (0x00007fafd2cdf000) libdb-4.7.so => /usr/lib/libdb-4.7.so (0x00007fafd297c000) libodbc.so.1 => /usr/lib/libodbc.so.1 (0x00007fafd271b000) libslp.so.1 => /usr/lib/libslp.so.1 (0x00007fafd250a000) libsasl2.so.2 => /usr/lib/libsasl2.so.2 (0x00007fafd22ef000) libgssapi_krb5.so.2 => /usr/lib/libgssapi_krb5.so.2 (0x00007fafd20bb000) libgnutls.so.26 => /usr/lib/libgnutls.so.26 (0x00007fafd1e19000) libcrypt.so.1 => /lib/libcrypt.so.1 (0x00007fafd1bdf000) libresolv.so.2 => /lib/libresolv.so.2 (0x00007fafd19c6000) libltdl.so.7 => /usr/lib/libltdl.so.7 (0x00007fafd17bc000) libwrap.so.0 => /lib/libwrap.so.0 (0x00007fafd15b0000) libpthread.so.0 => /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007fafd1393000) libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x00007fafd1010000) libnsl.so.1 => /lib/libnsl.so.1 (0x00007fafd0df5000) libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x00007fafd0bf1000) libkrb5.so.3 => /usr/lib/libkrb5.so.3 (0x00007fafd092d000) libk5crypto.so.3 => /usr/lib/libk5crypto.so.3 (0x00007fafd0706000) libcom_err.so.2 => /lib/libcom_err.so.2 (0x00007fafd0502000) libkrb5support.so.0 => /usr/lib/libkrb5support.so.0 (0x00007fafd02fa000) libkeyutils.so.1 => /lib/libkeyutils.so.1 (0x00007fafd00f6000) libtasn1.so.3 => /usr/lib/libtasn1.so.3 (0x00007fafcfee5000) libz.so.1 => /lib/libz.so.1 (0x00007fafcfcce000) libgcrypt.so.11 => /lib/libgcrypt.so.11 (0x00007fafcfa55000) /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007fafd34c9000) libgpg-error.so.0 => /lib/libgpg-error.so.0 (0x00007fafcf851000) dpkg -l libgnutls26 Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Inst/Cfg-files/Unpacked/Failed-cfg/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Description +++-======================================-======================================-============================================================================================ ii libgnutls26 2.8.5-2 the GNU TLS library - runtime library root at enigma:~# cat /etc/issue Ubuntu 10.04.2 LTS \n \l root at enigma:~# dpkg -l slapd Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Inst/Cfg-files/Unpacked/Failed-cfg/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Description +++-======================================-======================================-============================================================================================ ii slapd 2.4.21-0ubuntu5.6 OpenLDAP server (slapd) Happy holidays and thanks a lot in advance William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 18:39:51 2011 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:39:51 -0500 Subject: PC Routers In-Reply-To: <4EF4B58B.6020800-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20111208225943.GR9831@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24297.6080902@dinamis.com> <20111221205704.GR27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF24CA6.7070509@dinamis.com> <20111221224049.GT27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4EF29D4A.8000709@rogers.com> <4EF29E1F.3090000@dinamis.com> <4EF2A1CE.3090903@rogers.com> <4EF2A67F.50703@dinamis.com> <20111222140151.GA15390@watson-wilson.ca> <20111223000729.GL32262@adb.ca> <4EF4B58B.6020800@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:08 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > On 12/22/2011 07:07 PM, Anthony de Boer wrote: >> You could open a ticket with your provider asking them to properly >> enable autonegotiation on your port, reminding them that it's the 21st >> century now. > > I haven't had any luck on that one with the colo facilities I've dealt with. Indeed. If there's a network admin that still holds tenaciously to some elder Cisco-ish superstitions, then there's a big "good luck on that"... This falls into the self-polarizing-deception described in _Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me)_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistakes_Were_Made_%28But_Not_by_Me%29 Once people have committed to particular positions, arguing them into an opposite position is frequently not merely likely to be unsuccessful, but rather may have the counterproductive effect of making them hold even more tenaciously to their position. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 19:19:59 2011 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Sammy Lao) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:19:59 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That was quick. GoDaddy No Longer Supports SOPA http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/23/godaddy-no-longer-supports-sopa/ On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 11:25 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Colin McGregor > > | I would strongly recommend anyone using Go Daddy as a registrar move. > > Darn. I wish I'd realized this a week ago, before I renewed for 3 > years. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 19:19:39 2011 From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:19:39 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An update to the situation, GoDaddy no longer supports SOPA: http://www.godaddy.com/newscenter/release-view.aspx?news_item_id=378 On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 11:25 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Colin McGregor > > | I would strongly recommend anyone using Go Daddy as a registrar move. > > Darn. I wish I'd realized this a week ago, before I renewed for 3 > years. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Sadiq S http://asininetech.com https://launchpad.net/~staticsafe https://github.com/staticsafe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 23 19:44:52 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:44:52 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Go Daddy and SOPA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EF4DA34.3060908@alteeve.com> On 12/23/2011 02:19 PM, Sammy Lao wrote: > That was quick. > > > GoDaddy No Longer Supports SOPA > > > http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/23/godaddy-no-longer-supports-sopa/ I'd still argue strongly to move your domains to a business that wasn't a jerk from the start. Godaddy buckled, but they still have the same thinking and management that allowed them to support SOPA/PIPA in the first place. Also, don't forget PIPA, it's almost as bad. -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "omg my singularity battery is dead again. stupid hawking radiation." - epitron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 24 04:11:48 2011 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 23:11:48 -0500 Subject: OCZ Revodrive (PCIe x4) vs. SATA3 SSD (6Gbps)? In-Reply-To: <20111223154048.GX27744-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <1324590809.91207.YahooMailNeo@web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EF3FB42.7050002@gmail.com> <20111223094624.GA10149@node1.opengeometry.net> <20111223154048.GX27744@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20111224041147.GA4930@node1.opengeometry.net> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 10:40:48AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 04:46:25AM -0500, William Park wrote: > > My root filesystem can be trimmed down to 7GB. So, is there a way to > > create 16GB ramdisk and use that as root device? I mean, sort of > > ramdisk over a real disk, so that you can keep the data after reboot. > > Linux's disk cache already covers an awful lot. And conviniently caches > the stuff you use, without wasting ram on the stuff you don't. > Loading that ramdisk each boot would slow your boot time a lot. > > There is unionfs, but that basicly allows you to have a readonly > filesystem that all writes go to a different filesystem. That's not > helpful to do with a ramdisk, since then you loose all changes on reboot. > > There does exist battery backed ram disks as far as I know, and those > would make some sense since they would survice reboots. > > For example: http://techreport.com/articles.x/16255 ACard product is old and can't compete with current SATA2 SSDs. And, their website don't mention any new product. It's shame that SSD thing is driven by Windows. Because, all I need is 20GB of super fast disk, which is not enough for Windows install. :-) -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 25 16:49:52 2011 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 11:49:52 -0500 Subject: Volkswagen turns off Blackberry email after work hours Message-ID: Hello, Just came across this article and got curious how one can implement it efficiently, that is, without subscribing the phone in the morning and de-subscribing in the evening. I believe this is not what VW will be doing us it would easily become annoying? What if all the VW employees are not BB users? Also off topic a bit, what's the deal with unions sometimes? Seriously, I do like unions but these are some of the things that make people think twice about them. Turning off the phone would be a better solution http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16314901 Happy holidays William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alexander.Short-V7Ve2fXh0sTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 25 17:09:56 2011 From: Alexander.Short-V7Ve2fXh0sTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Alexander Short) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 12:09:56 -0500 Subject: Volkswagen turns off Blackberry email after work hours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems like their schedule is similar for all workers. So its as easy as scheduling the Blackberry router service to shutdown and start up on at certain times. BES is also sql based so there are ways to change things around with some T-SQL know how. We for example set our BB signatures using a vbs file that pulls data from AD and shoves it into the right field in the BES sql database. -- Alexander Short Associate Director, IT Operations Iovate Health Sciences Inc. 381 North Service Road West Oakville, ON L6M 0H4 www.iovate.com E-mail: alexander.short at iovate.com Phone: 905.678.4024 Toll-Free: 1.888.334.4448 x 4024 Cell: 416.317.9924 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic transmission and any attachments hereto are intended for the confidential use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential information belonging to Iovate. You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action, based on the contents of this electronic transmission and without Iovate?s express authorization, is strictly prohibited. If you have reason to believe that you have received this transmission in error, please notify immediately by return e-mail and delete and destroy this communication. [Sent from a BlackBerry Wireless Device] From: William Muriithi [mailto:william.muriithi at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 11:49 AM To: TLUG mailing list Subject: [TLUG]: Volkswagen turns off Blackberry email after work hours Hello, Just came across this article and got curious how one can implement it efficiently, that is, without subscribing the phone in the morning and de-subscribing in the evening. I believe this is not what VW will be doing us it would easily become annoying? What if all the VW employees are not BB users? Also off topic a bit, what's the deal with unions sometimes? Seriously, I do like unions but these are some of the things that make people think twice about them. Turning off the phone would be a better solution http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16314901 Happy holidays William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 25 18:14:19 2011 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:14:19 -0500 Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? Message-ID: It can be either shared or VPS, although I'm kind of leaning to the latter. I'm thinking about moving away from US-based hosts in case things like SOPA and Protect-IP actually pass. I host remixes, music made with samples, and podcasts. I don't want to have to have problems in case someone decides that I'm "infringing copyrights". - Fabio -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org Sun Dec 25 19:17:31 2011 From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 14:17:31 -0500 Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recommend Carat Hosting and iWeb. http://www.caratnetworks.com/ http://iweb.com/ On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Fabio FZero wrote: > It can be either shared or VPS, although I'm kind of leaning to the > latter. I'm thinking about moving away from US-based hosts in case things > like SOPA and Protect-IP actually pass. > > I host remixes, music made with samples, and podcasts. I don't want to > have to have problems in case someone decides that I'm "infringing > copyrights". > > - Fabio > -- Sadiq S http://asininetech.com https://launchpad.net/~staticsafe https://github.com/staticsafe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Dec 26 23:21:57 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 18:21:57 -0500 Subject: Linux Mint's Cinnamon: A GNOME 3.x shell fork Message-ID: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/linux-mints-cinnamon-a-gnome-3x-shell-fork/10056 -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 10:05:19 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 05:05:19 -0500 Subject: Question about gnumeric navigation Message-ID: <20111227100519.GA23639@waltdnes.org> A few minutes ago, I had to fight off the urge to "excercise a rarely used portion of my vocabulary", thanks to gnumeric. It seems that at times the "HOME" and "END" keys will take me to the first or last tab in the spreadsheet, rather than acting like they normally do. What gives, and how can I turn this behaviour off? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 14:28:26 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:28:26 -0500 Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111227142826.GC3135@watson-wilson.ca> Since Canada shares the same IP address pool with the US (ARIN) the SOPA law could affect Canadian sites. I would expect our Conservative government to support the US in this. It would be safer to host your site outside of ARIN. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 14:52:48 2011 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 14:52:48 +0000 Subject: Question about gnumeric navigation In-Reply-To: <20111227100519.GA23639-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111227100519.GA23639@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: I think this happens when the cursor is over the tabs bar. Similarly, scrolling the wheel will scroll through the tabs (if the cursor is over the tabs). I've never had this happen to me when the cursor was not over the tabs. > From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 05:05:19 -0500 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: Question about gnumeric navigation > > A few minutes ago, I had to fight off the urge to "excercise a rarely > used portion of my vocabulary", thanks to gnumeric. It seems that at > times the "HOME" and "END" keys will take me to the first or last tab in > the spreadsheet, rather than acting like they normally do. What gives, > and how can I turn this behaviour off? > > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 14:58:49 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:58:49 -0500 Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? In-Reply-To: <20111227142826.GC3135-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111227142826.GC3135@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <4EF9DD29.90708@rogers.com> Neil Watson wrote: > Since Canada shares the same IP address pool with the US (ARIN) the SOPA > law could affect Canadian sites. I would expect our Conservative > government to support the US in this. > > It would be safer to host your site outside of ARIN. > Is Sealand still around? http://www.sealandgov.org/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 15:09:28 2011 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 01:09:28 +1000 (EST) Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? In-Reply-To: <20111227142826.GC3135-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111227142826.GC3135@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Neil Watson wrote: > Since Canada shares the same IP address pool with the US (ARIN) the SOPA > law could affect Canadian sites. I would expect our Conservative > government to support the US in this. > > It would be safer to host your site outside of ARIN. Hi Neil. Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) such as ARIN simply distribute certain Internet resources (and perform other services such as training) as directed by their membership. I don't see how RIRs come in to this argument at all. Canada (and other nations) may well create legislation aligned with SOPA but it won't have anything to do with how they source IP addreses or As numbers. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December 1250) From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 15:15:31 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:15:31 -0500 Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? In-Reply-To: References: <20111227142826.GC3135@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111227151531.GA4182@watson-wilson.ca> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 01:09:28AM +1000, Robert Brockway wrote: >Hi Neil. Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) such as ARIN simply >distribute certain Internet resources (and perform other services >such as training) as directed by their membership. > >I don't see how RIRs come in to this argument at all. Michael Geist thinks that this is possible. http://www.thestar.com/article/1085837--geist-u-s-could-claim-millions-of-canadian-domain-names-in-piracy-battle "Yet IP addresses are allocated by regional organizations, not national ones. The allocation entity located in the U.S. is called ARIN, the Americas Registry for Internet Numbers. Its territory includes the U.S., Canada and 20 Caribbean nations. This bill treats all IP addresses in this region as domestic for U.S. law purposes." -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 15:19:58 2011 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:19:58 -0500 Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? In-Reply-To: References: <20111227142826.GC3135@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: Exaclty. As far as I know, Canada doesn't have (for now) anything like the DMCA, which is another concern I have. The alternative would be hosting somewhere in Europe or Asia - the problem would be the price. By the way: if anyone of you have the same concerns, I would gladly share a box overseas if we all agree to run something Debian-based. :-) - Fabio On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 10:09, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Neil Watson wrote: > > Since Canada shares the same IP address pool with the US (ARIN) the SOPA >> law could affect Canadian sites. I would expect our Conservative >> government to support the US in this. >> >> It would be safer to host your site outside of ARIN. >> > > Hi Neil. Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) such as ARIN simply > distribute certain Internet resources (and perform other services such as > training) as directed by their membership. > > I don't see how RIRs come in to this argument at all. > > Canada (and other nations) may well create legislation aligned with SOPA > but it won't have anything to do with how they source IP addreses or As > numbers. > > Cheers, > > Rob > > -- > Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 > IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) > Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.**com > Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) > Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world > "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by > nature and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 > December 1250) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 16:24:19 2011 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:24:19 +1000 (EST) Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? In-Reply-To: <20111227151531.GA4182-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20111227142826.GC3135@watson-wilson.ca> <20111227151531.GA4182@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Neil Watson wrote: > Michael Geist thinks that this is possible. > http://www.thestar.com/article/1085837--geist-u-s-could-claim-millions-of-canadian-domain-names-in-piracy-battle > > "Yet IP addresses are allocated by regional organizations, not national > ones. The allocation entity located in the U.S. is called ARIN, the > Americas Registry for Internet Numbers. Its territory includes the U.S., > Canada and 20 Caribbean nations. This bill treats all IP addresses in > this region as domestic for U.S. law purposes." Thanks, I read the article. People consistently over-estimate the authority and power of RIRs. It may be that Mr Geist is doing the same thing. The only enforcement option the RIRs have is through the courts, so it really comes down to whether a Canadian court would enforce an attempt to remove a resource from a Canadian organisation. It seems to me that they could only do this subject to Canadian laws and treaties. My point is that if the US government went after Canadian organisations they would do so directly using whatever options Canadian laws and treaties gave them. The RIRs just don't fit in well here as far as I can see. If a court order was made then ARIN would presumably update it's whois database to reflect the change. So as far as I can tell Canada isn't special here because it draws from the same RIR as the US. What matters, imho, are Canadian treaties with the US and Canadian law. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Free & Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world "One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature and the force of reason" -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 ? 13 December 1250) From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 16:42:59 2011 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 11:42:59 -0500 Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? In-Reply-To: References: <20111227142826.GC3135@watson-wilson.ca> <20111227151531.GA4182@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111227164259.GA5462@watson-wilson.ca> By the time this type of thing gets to the courts the site owner can often be so over burdened with legal fees that they are forced to cut their losses and give in. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 17:16:17 2011 From: adb-SACILpcuo74 at public.gmane.org (Anthony de Boer) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 12:16:17 -0500 Subject: Any tips of decent web hosting companies based in Canada? In-Reply-To: References: <20111227142826.GC3135@watson-wilson.ca> <20111227151531.GA4182@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20111227171617.GW32262@adb.ca> Robert Brockway wrote: > The only enforcement option the RIRs have is through the courts, so it > really comes down to whether a Canadian court would enforce an attempt to > remove a resource from a Canadian organisation. It seems to me that they > could only do this subject to Canadian laws and treaties. > > My point is that if the US government went after Canadian organisations > they would do so directly using whatever options Canadian laws and > treaties gave them. The RIRs just don't fit in well here as far as I can > see. If a court order was made then ARIN would presumably update it's > whois database to reflect the change. Traditionally it's been easier to hand out v4 space than to pull it back. If SOPA did result in a US court finding against a Canadian ISP, you'd still find its Canadian upstream BGP-advertising the prefix, listings in RADB and such, and even if ARIN were to change its database entry for the space as required by law there, the prefix would still be hanging on. The key is that US entities would be required to follow SOPA, while Canadian ones not so much. The line gets blurred with wings of US network carriers operating in Canada and contract terms between Canadian and US firms. Either way, if your path to the rest of the Internet is through the US and a court there decides there are too many filesharers in your netblock you're probably out-of-luck. If SOPA starts looking like a bad stink this side of the border, and we don't go down the legislative path together, then you might see more emphasis on Canadian providers interconnecting with each other and with transatlantic and transpacific partners: interpret the US as damage and route around it. This might also lead to a Canadian-flavoured RADB to track prefixes deallocated in US databases. Attempts in the US to reallocate such prefixes, or announce blackhole routes, might result in various routing problems here or overseas. People wanting to host pirate servers here to serve the US market would likely make the situation worse as the US attacks the chunks of Canadian address space they show up in, and make it harder for the rest of us to access US websites if we're originating from banned blocks. You might see legit websites having to geolocate more just to steer customers on each side of the wall of brokenness to a server on the same side. IPv6 has a slightly different allocation model, with a major block going to each Tier 1 backbone provider for suballocation through its various affiliates and resellers. If your Canadian provider is working under an allocation from a US Tier 1, then there are chances your netblock can be yanked more directly. There is the chance that there'd be momentum toward a Canadian Tier 1 as a result of this mess. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Dec 27 20:52:01 2011 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 20:52:01 +0000 Subject: Question about gnumeric navigation In-Reply-To: References: <20111227100519.GA23639@waltdnes.org>, Message-ID: Sorry, I couldn't duplicate your original problem. What I said seems to only apply when scrolling with mouse wheel. From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [TLUG]: Question about gnumeric navigation Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 14:52:48 +0000 I think this happens when the cursor is over the tabs bar. Similarly, scrolling the wheel will scroll through the tabs (if the cursor is over the tabs). I've never had this happen to me when the cursor was not over the tabs. > From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 05:05:19 -0500 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: Question about gnumeric navigation > > A few minutes ago, I had to fight off the urge to "excercise a rarely > used portion of my vocabulary", thanks to gnumeric. It seems that at > times the "HOME" and "END" keys will take me to the first or last tab in > the spreadsheet, rather than acting like they normally do. What gives, > and how can I turn this behaviour off? > > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 06:39:38 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 01:39:38 -0500 Subject: Question about gnumeric navigation In-Reply-To: References: <20111227100519.GA23639@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111228063938.GA24286@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 02:52:48PM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote > > I think this happens when the cursor is over the tabs bar. Similarly, > scrolling the wheel will scroll through the tabs (if the cursor is > over the tabs). I've never had this happen to me when the cursor > was not over the tabs. I've narrowed it down to the first keystroke after hitting the small black triangles at the bottom, which normally go to next tab (right hand side) or previous tab (left hand side). If I want to go to the top of the spreadsheet, I hit {END}{UPARROW}. The {END} key immediately sends me to the last tab. If I click somewhere in the spreadsheet, that doesn't happen. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 07:20:35 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:20:35 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? Message-ID: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> Out of a bit of paranoia, I'm blocking Facebook and its "Like" buttons, on my machine. Here are 3 snippets from my iptables rules -A INPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 69.220.144.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 96.16.0.0/15 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 200.58.112.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A INPUT -s 213.155.64.0/19 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 69.220.144.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 96.16.0.0/15 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 200.58.112.0/20 -j FECESBOOK -A OUTPUT -s 213.155.64.0/19 -j FECESBOOK -A FECESBOOK -j LOG --log-prefix "FECESBOOK:" --log-level 6 -A FECESBOOK -j DROP That works. However, I've recently started running into a lot of web pages that simply refuse to load under Firefox+Opera with those IP addresses blocked. w3m works on them, so I assume this is related to graphic elements, i.e. the "Like" button, or "Follow" links. Any idea how I can block those ranges without webpages refusing to load? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 10:08:00 2011 From: ori-RdxWQVHs3mjDN57Tih+YPw at public.gmane.org (Ori Idan) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:08:00 +0200 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: <20111228072035.GB24286-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: Out of curiosity, why block facebook? -- Ori Idan On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Walter Dnes wrote: > Out of a bit of paranoia, I'm blocking Facebook and its "Like" > buttons, on my machine. Here are 3 snippets from my iptables rules > > -A INPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 69.220.144.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 96.16.0.0/15 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 200.58.112.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A INPUT -s 213.155.64.0/19 -j FECESBOOK > > -A OUTPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 69.220.144.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 69.63.176.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 69.171.224.0/19 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 96.16.0.0/15 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 200.58.112.0/20 -j FECESBOOK > -A OUTPUT -s 213.155.64.0/19 -j FECESBOOK > > -A FECESBOOK -j LOG --log-prefix "FECESBOOK:" --log-level 6 > -A FECESBOOK -j DROP > > That works. However, I've recently started running into a lot of web > pages that simply refuse to load under Firefox+Opera with those IP > addresses blocked. w3m works on them, so I assume this is related to > graphic elements, i.e. the "Like" button, or "Follow" links. Any idea > how I can block those ranges without webpages refusing to load? > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 13:44:59 2011 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 08:44:59 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: <20111228072035.GB24286-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111228134459.GA14826@yam.witteman.ca> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 02:20:35AM -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > Out of a bit of paranoia, I'm blocking Facebook and its "Like" >buttons, on my machine. Here are 3 snippets from my iptables rules This doesn't work with Opera, but there are Firefox extensions that do what you want without disrupting browsing, like BlockSite: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/blocksite/ -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 14:43:38 2011 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 14:43:38 +0000 Subject: Question about gnumeric navigation In-Reply-To: <20111228063938.GA24286-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111227100519.GA23639@waltdnes.org>,,<20111228063938.GA24286@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: Yep, got the same thing. What I find odd is that it doesn't happen at all when you click on a tab and it only happens once when you click on the black triangle. > From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org > Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 01:39:38 -0500 > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Question about gnumeric navigation > > On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 02:52:48PM +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote > > > > I think this happens when the cursor is over the tabs bar. Similarly, > > scrolling the wheel will scroll through the tabs (if the cursor is > > over the tabs). I've never had this happen to me when the cursor > > was not over the tabs. > > I've narrowed it down to the first keystroke after hitting the small > black triangles at the bottom, which normally go to next tab (right hand > side) or previous tab (left hand side). If I want to go to the top of > the spreadsheet, I hit {END}{UPARROW}. The {END} key immediately sends > me to the last tab. If I click somewhere in the spreadsheet, that > doesn't happen. > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 14:53:42 2011 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 18:53:42 +0400 Subject: mobile access - is it possible to get connected to IP? Message-ID: <4EFB2D76.3080701@gmail.com> Here is Russia mobile internet access is quite popular. They sell mobile modems, similar to these memory keys, for USB. I did not figure out yet how o use it. Some companies claim that it is supported on some versions of Linux, but no instructions are available. On another hand, the latest Ubuntu version I have has a something that looks like configuring a broadband 3G wireless access in its network configuration. I wonder: is it possible to access a computer, from the internet, that uses that kind of connection? Let say that I use that mobile modem key and run a web server on my computer. Is it possible to get access to my web server from the wired internet? I guess that that that may depend on security policy of the company providing the mobile access. Right? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 15:09:58 2011 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 10:09:58 -0500 Subject: mobile access - is it possible to get connected to IP? In-Reply-To: <4EFB2D76.3080701-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFB2D76.3080701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EFB3146.4030005@rogers.com> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Here is Russia mobile internet access is quite popular. They sell > mobile modems, similar to these memory keys, for USB. > > I did not figure out yet how o use it. Some companies claim that it is > supported on some versions of Linux, but no instructions are > available. On another hand, the latest Ubuntu version I have has a > something that looks like configuring a broadband 3G wireless access > in its network configuration. > > I wonder: is it possible to access a computer, from the internet, that > uses that kind of connection? Let say that I use that mobile modem key > and run a web server on my computer. Is it possible to get access to > my web server from the wired internet? I guess that that that may > depend on security policy of the company providing the mobile access. > > Right? Without knowing the device in question, I can't really say. However, I did try a Rogers "Stick" in my Linux computer and it was recognized as a dial up modem. As for whether you can reach your web site, that depends on whether the carrier uses a "private address" (RFC1918) for that device. My Android phone on Rogers gets one of those, which means it's not publicly reachable. This sort of problem will disappear, when IPv6 becomes common. With it there are plenty to hand out. In fact, my own IPv6 subnet is a trillion times the entire IPv4 address space. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 15:38:00 2011 From: sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (sammy.lao-OvU2V46eqDdvgyatUqoQW0B+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 10:38:00 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: <20111228134459.GA14826-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111228134459.GA14826@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <4efb37d8.6a6c340a.21c4.11c8@mx.google.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 15:59:36 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 10:59:36 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20111228155936.GA25561@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 12:08:00PM +0200, Ori Idan wrote > Out of curiosity, why block facebook? Because they're tracking everybody they can, *REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE MEMBERS OF FACEBOOK*. See the article at http://www.thinq.co.uk/2010/11/30/facebooks-button-tracking-you/ for an explanation of how it works. And I quote... > "However, when a site is visited which includes Facebook Connect, > this application issues a cookie. From that moment on, visits to > other websites which display the 'Like' button result in a request > for the Like button from the Facebook server including the cookie." > > Which means Facebook has swiped another batch of valuable data > without asking for permission. > > When you consider that 40 million unique visitors ended up on a site > using Facebook Connect in a single month in March 2009, and that > these particular cookies have a two-year expiry date, that ads up > to a lot of user data flying around looking for a home. > > "Based on the cookie, the entire web behaviour of an individual > user can be followed," says Roosendaal. "Every site that includes > some kind of Facebook content will initiate an interaction with the > Facebook servers, disclosing information about the visited web site > together with the cookie." > > So you find yourself dragging all of this invisible data round with > you like a piece of toilet paper stuck to your shoe, even though > you have never even been to Facebook, let alone signed up. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 17:09:16 2011 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:09:16 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: <20111228155936.GA25561-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> <20111228155936.GA25561@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: On 28 December 2011 10:59, Walter Dnes wrote: > ?Because they're tracking everybody they can, *REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR > NOT THEY'RE MEMBERS OF FACEBOOK*. However, if you've never signed into Facebook, I doubt they could tell who *you* actually are. They would just know "some unknown person using this device is/has [...]". Regardless, it sounds like you could get away with just blocking cookies for the domains setting and reading these cookies, as opposed to blocking all traffic for them. Blocking just the cookies may be easier and may help with your problem of pages not loading. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 17:21:36 2011 From: echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Elliott Chapin) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:21:36 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> <20111228155936.GA25561@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4EFB5020.1060607@teksavvy.com> On 12/28/2011 12:09 PM, Scott Allen wrote: > On 28 December 2011 10:59, Walter Dnes wrote: >> Because they're tracking everybody they can, *REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR >> NOT THEY'RE MEMBERS OF FACEBOOK*. > > However, if you've never signed into Facebook, I doubt they could tell > who *you* actually are. They would just know "some unknown person > using this device is/has [...]". > > Regardless, it sounds like you could get away with just blocking > cookies for the domains setting and reading these cookies, as opposed > to blocking all traffic for them. Blocking just the cookies may be > easier and may help with your problem of pages not loading. > http://www.ghostery.com/ http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/researchers-find-methods-kill-persistent-evercookie-101910 -- clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 18:50:15 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:50:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> <20111228155936.GA25561@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Scott Allen | However, if you've never signed into Facebook, I doubt they could tell | who *you* actually are. They would just know "some unknown person | using this device is/has [...]". Identity is a really complex concept. In some sense your identity is the set of web sites you visit. | Regardless, it sounds like you could get away with just blocking | cookies for the domains setting and reading these cookies, as opposed | to blocking all traffic for them. Blocking just the cookies may be | easier and may help with your problem of pages not loading. In FireFox, I blocked facebook cookies and yet they reappeared. I don't know how that happened. I cleaned them out again and they haven't yet reappeared (I just checked). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 21:03:11 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:03:11 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> <20111228155936.GA25561@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4EFB840F.1080703@utoronto.ca> On 12/28/2011 01:50 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > In FireFox, I blocked facebook cookies and yet they reappeared. I > don't know how that happened. I cleaned them out again and they > haven't yet reappeared (I just checked). To me this is the inverse of how cookies (and browser security) should be handled. I browse with Noscript, Cookie Monster, Better Privacy, Refcontrol, and Adblock add-ons for Firefox. It means that all javascript, cookies, referers, and ads are blacklisted by default, and I have the option to add temporary or permanent exceptions. This setup means that I was not affected by the kissmetrics cookie over the summer, despite the ability of kissmetrics to glean information based on cookies from other sites: http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/07/undeletable-cookie/ tl;dr - blacklist javascript, cookies and flash by default, selectively whitelist sites that you want to visit. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Dec 28 21:27:42 2011 From: andrej-igvx78u1SeH3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:27:42 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: <4EFB840F.1080703-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> <20111228155936.GA25561@waltdnes.org> <4EFB840F.1080703@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 12/28/2011 01:50 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > In FireFox, I blocked facebook cookies and yet they reappeared. I > > don't know how that happened. I cleaned them out again and they > > haven't yet reappeared (I just checked). > > To me this is the inverse of how cookies (and browser security) should > be handled. I browse with Noscript, Cookie Monster, Better Privacy, > Refcontrol, and Adblock add-ons for Firefox. It means that all > javascript, cookies, referers, and ads are blacklisted by default, and I > have the option to add temporary or permanent exceptions. > Cookie Monster is pretty neat - I guess I won't have to keep my private hacked version of CS Lite anymore. Completely agreed on the rest, and this is a big part of the reason Firefox is my browser of choice: the privacy and control extensions available for it are simply not possible in other browsers. As for the original question, blocking facebook.com and fbcdn.net (I think) in adblock will do the trick (in Firefox, at least). Other sites will continue to work just fine, though facebook.com won't work at all. I made a separate, hardened profile for Facebook for those very rare occasions when I have reason to use that site. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 02:20:20 2011 From: thomas.bruce.milne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 21:20:20 -0500 Subject: Huge portions of the Web vulnerable to hashing denial-of-service attack Message-ID: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/12/huge-portions-of-web-vulnerable-to-hashing-denial-of-service-attack.ars -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 15:30:24 2011 From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 07:30:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shell redirection In-Reply-To: <4EF23C73.4070701-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4EF23C73.4070701@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1325172624.47562.YahooMailClassic@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Try time command &> outputFile eg. time ls -la &> flist flist will contain the list of files. Hope that helps Equbay --- On Wed, 12/21/11, Jamon Camisso wrote: > From: Jamon Camisso > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Shell redirection > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Received: Wednesday, December 21, 2011, 3:07 PM > On 21/12/11 02:57 PM, Neil Watson > wrote: > > Suppose I have a command: > > > > "time " > > > > How can I redirect the other command's stdout and > stderr but not the > > output of time? > > time can write to a file with -o, and append to said file > with -a. Is > that enough to get you going? > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 > columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 17:48:57 2011 From: ivan.avery.frey-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:48:57 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: <20111228072035.GB24286-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4EFCA809.3040807@gmail.com> ghostery has plugins for all the major browsers. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 20:14:37 2011 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 15:14:37 -0500 Subject: Reliable HDD SATA Enclosures/Adapters Message-ID: <4EFCCA2D.1090301@gmail.com> Hey everyone, I know somebody will have a good opinion about this. Does anyone have any advice for *reliable* external drive enclosures, and where you might get one in the Toronto area? There are so many really bad ones out there. Some are fast at the beginning, but don't survive being on for long periods of time. Some are slow and unreliable, some break down on long file transfers. Price doesn't seem to indicate much either. Order of importance is: 1. reliablity 2. performance 3. price I'm looking at 2.5" and 3.5" enclosures or adapters. I tried the usual places online. canadacomputers, tigerdirect, newegg, amazon, the reviews are... misleading. Thanks for any input. -Mike (Bonus points for IEEE1394 + eSATA + USB3.0) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 20:22:39 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 15:22:39 -0500 Subject: Reliable HDD SATA Enclosures/Adapters In-Reply-To: <4EFCCA2D.1090301-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFCCA2D.1090301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EFCCC0F.6040408@alteeve.com> On 12/29/2011 03:14 PM, Mike Kallies wrote: > Hey everyone, > > I know somebody will have a good opinion about this. Does anyone have > any advice for *reliable* external drive enclosures, and where you might > get one in the Toronto area? There are so many really bad ones out > there. Some are fast at the beginning, but don't survive being on for > long periods of time. Some are slow and unreliable, some break down on > long file transfers. > > Price doesn't seem to indicate much either. Order of importance is: > > 1. reliablity > 2. performance > 3. price > > I'm looking at 2.5" and 3.5" enclosures or adapters. I tried the usual > places online. canadacomputers, tigerdirect, newegg, amazon, the > reviews are... misleading. > > Thanks for any input. > > -Mike I've used many Vantec Nexstar3 (and variants) for years with good success. http://www.vantecusa.com/en/product/index/21 Most retailers carry Vantec carriers. -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "omg my singularity battery is dead again. stupid hawking radiation." - epitron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 21:19:38 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:19:38 -0500 Subject: Reliable HDD SATA Enclosures/Adapters In-Reply-To: <4EFCCC0F.6040408-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFCCA2D.1090301@gmail.com> <4EFCCC0F.6040408@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On 29 December 2011 15:22, Digimer wrote: > On 12/29/2011 03:14 PM, Mike Kallies wrote: >> Hey everyone, >> >> I know somebody will have a good opinion about this. ?Does anyone have >> any advice for *reliable* external drive enclosures, and where you might >> get one in the Toronto area? ?There are so many really bad ones out >> there. ?Some are fast at the beginning, but don't survive being on for >> long periods of time. ?Some are slow and unreliable, some break down on >> long file transfers. >> >> Price doesn't seem to indicate much either. ?Order of importance is: >> >> 1. reliablity >> 2. performance >> 3. price >> >> I'm looking at 2.5" and 3.5" enclosures or adapters. ?I tried the usual >> places online. ?canadacomputers, tigerdirect, newegg, amazon, the >> reviews are... misleading. >> >> Thanks for any input. >> >> -Mike > > I've used many Vantec Nexstar3 (and variants) for years with good success. > > http://www.vantecusa.com/en/product/index/21 > > Most retailers carry Vantec carriers. +1 GTALUG put me onto the Vantecs on one of the previous rounds of "which case is best," and I've been buying them ever since. I can't really speak to speed or being on for long periods, but I've used them a lot in both USB and eSATA mode (the ones that have that available ...) and been very happy with them. Prices are usually quite similar to other offerings. I've always bought them through Canada Computers. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Dec 29 21:23:35 2011 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:23:35 -0500 Subject: How do I block Facebook without breaking web surfing? In-Reply-To: <4EFCA809.3040807-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20111228072035.GB24286@waltdnes.org> <4EFCA809.3040807@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29 December 2011 12:48, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > ghostery has plugins for all the major browsers. There was some concern back in early 2010 when ghostery was sold to a marketing company. I removed it from my browser at that point (foxes guarding the hen house and all that). It looks like they've played nicely, but I think it's a matter for concern. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 18:24:01 2011 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:24:01 +0400 Subject: Ubuntu first time Message-ID: <4EFE01C1.4090709@gmail.com> Used am to CentOS. For years. For certain reasons I installed Ubuntu on my main desktop at home, the latest one. And am frustrated enourmously. Yes, its Ubuntu Software Center works great. Unfortunately, if I wanted to use Ubuntu at school where I have a small part time work I could not - they have no Internet. However, I am sick with the menu on the left. Why these icons are so large? The idea about this menu must have been invented by an insane Windows users, right? Why i can not add my own icons of programs to upper horizontal menu?Where is terminal configuaration? Why do I have to click so many times to open a terminal? Where are terminal tabs? Why I can not change screen window with a one mouse movement and a click? Why firefox needs a new configuration? Ughrr... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 18:26:49 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:26:49 +0000 Subject: Ubuntu first time Message-ID: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> These are similar complaints I had when testing Ubuntu. As a result of this, I moved off *buntu completely, selecting PCLinuxOS and haven't looked back. ------Original Message------ From: Zbigniew Koziol Sender: owner-tlug at ss.org To: tlug at ss.org ReplyTo: tlug at ss.org Subject: [TLUG]: Ubuntu first time Sent: Dec 30, 2011 13:24 Used am to CentOS. For years. For certain reasons I installed Ubuntu on my main desktop at home, the latest one. And am frustrated enourmously. Yes, its Ubuntu Software Center works great. Unfortunately, if I wanted to use Ubuntu at school where I have a small part time work I could not - they have no Internet. However, I am sick with the menu on the left. Why these icons are so large? The idea about this menu must have been invented by an insane Windows users, right? Why i can not add my own icons of programs to upper horizontal menu?Where is terminal configuaration? Why do I have to click so many times to open a terminal? Where are terminal tabs? Why I can not change screen window with a one mouse movement and a click? Why firefox needs a new configuration? Ughrr... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 18:35:36 2011 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:35:36 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4EFE01C1.4090709-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE01C1.4090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EFE0478.4030200@alteeve.com> On 12/30/2011 01:24 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Used am to CentOS. For years. > > For certain reasons I installed Ubuntu on my main desktop at home, the > latest one. > > And am frustrated enourmously. > > Yes, its Ubuntu Software Center works great. Unfortunately, if I wanted > to use Ubuntu at school where I have a small part time work I could not > - they have no Internet. > > However, I am sick with the menu on the left. Why these icons are so > large? The idea about this menu must have been invented by an insane > Windows users, right? Why i can not add my own icons of programs to > upper horizontal menu?Where is terminal configuaration? Why do I have to > click so many times to open a terminal? Where are terminal tabs? Why I > can not change screen window with a one mouse movement and a click? Why > firefox needs a new configuration? Ughrr... I left Ubuntu for Fedora when Ubiquity replaced Gnome. That said, it's not influenced by windows; It's influenced by tablets. They're aiming for touch-screen users. I've not used it, but Mint is a gnome-based Ubuntu derivative that is getting a lot of good reviews. In Fedora as of 15, gnome has been been upgraded to version 3. Many people don't like it, as it's a dramatic departure from Gnome 2. The top/bottom panel we've seen for over a decade is gone there, too. It seems that all the major GUIs are re-inventing themselves for various reasons. I decided to forget how I used to work and try to understand the intended work-flow of Gnome 3, and now I love it. I actually find the old Gnome 2 frustrating. All of the new GUIs will take time to get used to, but it will go a lot easier if you don't try to hang on to old ways. Remember, when Gnome came out, it was a dramatic shift from what came before and required re-learning. Heck, GUIs themselves were a major shift. Personally, I think the new designs are long over due. -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Freenode handle: digimer Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org "omg my singularity battery is dead again. stupid hawking radiation." - epitron -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 19:09:57 2011 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:09:57 +0400 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374--AsA4DumeTO5B3jEAhgDvjWwcY1zWLNb1@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> On 12/30/2011 10:26 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: > These are similar complaints I had when testing Ubuntu. As a result of this, I moved off *buntu completely, selecting PCLinuxOS and haven't looked back. Does PCLinuxOS has a comparable to ubuntu abilities to install additional packages? Is it debian based? > ------Original Message------ > From: Zbigniew Koziol > Sender: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > ReplyTo: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: Ubuntu first time > Sent: Dec 30, 2011 13:24 > > Used am to CentOS. For years. > > For certain reasons I installed Ubuntu on my main desktop at home, the > latest one. > > And am frustrated enourmously. > > Yes, its Ubuntu Software Center works great. Unfortunately, if I wanted > to use Ubuntu at school where I have a small part time work I could not > - they have no Internet. > > However, I am sick with the menu on the left. Why these icons are so > large? The idea about this menu must have been invented by an insane > Windows users, right? Why i can not add my own icons of programs to > upper horizontal menu?Where is terminal configuaration? Why do I have to > click so many times to open a terminal? Where are terminal tabs? Why I > can not change screen window with a one mouse movement and a click? Why > firefox needs a new configuration? Ughrr... > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless NetworkN???'?????T????.????)??m?????n????2?????-????h?',6??0?+j?^????? References: <4EFE01C1.4090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Used am to CentOS. For years. > > For certain reasons I installed Ubuntu on my main desktop at home, the > latest one. > > And am frustrated enourmously. > > Yes, its Ubuntu Software Center works great. Unfortunately, if I wanted to > use Ubuntu at school where I have a small part time work I could not - they > have no Internet. > > However, I am sick with the menu on the left. Why these icons are so large? > The idea about this menu must have been invented by an insane Windows users, > right? Why i can not add my own icons of programs to upper horizontal You can, just select Applications and then the ones you want can be dragged over or added from the right-click menu. > menu?Where is terminal configuaration? Why do I have to click so many times > to open a terminal? Where are terminal tabs? Why I can not change screen > window with a one mouse movement and a click? Why firefox needs a new > configuration? Ughrr... > When you log in, there should be an option for Gnome Classic or something like that. It will give you the old Gnome 2 desktop that you are used to. -- Thomas Milne -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 19:18:01 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:18:01 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4EFE0C85.2070108-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30 December 2011 14:09, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > On 12/30/2011 10:26 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: >> >> These are similar complaints I had when testing Ubuntu. ?As a result of >> this, I moved off *buntu completely, selecting PCLinuxOS and haven't looked >> back. > > Does PCLinuxOS has a comparable to ubuntu abilities to install additional > packages? Is it debian based? > > >> ------Original Message------ >> From: Zbigniew Koziol >> Sender: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> ReplyTo: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Subject: [TLUG]: Ubuntu first time >> Sent: Dec 30, 2011 13:24 >> >> Used am to CentOS. For years. >> >> For certain reasons I installed Ubuntu on my main desktop at home, the >> latest one. >> >> And am frustrated enourmously. >> >> Yes, its Ubuntu Software Center works great. Unfortunately, if I wanted >> to use Ubuntu at school where I have a small part time work I could not >> - they have no Internet. >> >> However, I am sick with the menu on the left. Why these icons are so >> large? The idea about this menu must have been invented by an insane >> Windows users, right? Why i can not add my own icons of programs to >> upper horizontal menu?Where is terminal configuaration? Why do I have to >> click so many times to open a terminal? Where are terminal tabs? Why I >> can not change screen window with a one mouse movement and a click? Why >> firefox needs a new configuration? Ughrr... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless NetworkN >> ???'?????T??? ?.????)?? m?????n????2? ????-???? h?',6 ?0?+j?^?????> ?-?CRP ?D?D??i??-j[ ????)"????)??+-s=== > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists PCLinuxOS is based on Mandriva, which is, itself, based on Red Hat. If your question about additional packages means the ability to download source files, RPMs, or binary packages, yes, it has that ability as well. It also offers Synaptic [and, thus, apt-get] to install packages. Through my experimentation with PCLinuxOS back in 2006/2007, I discovered KeePassX, a cross platform password manager. While some of my at work use Windows, the majority are Linux based. Having the ability to access a single encrypted password file [CIFS share mounted on each system] making management of the systems here much simpler. FYI, I just noticed the garbage at the end of my signature. Sorry for that, I'll ensure I don't send anything from my BlackBerry until I figure out how to change the formatting. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 19:22:27 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:22:27 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30 December 2011 14:18, Alex Gabriel wrote: > On 30 December 2011 14:09, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >> On 12/30/2011 10:26 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: >>> >>> These are similar complaints I had when testing Ubuntu. ?As a result of >>> this, I moved off *buntu completely, selecting PCLinuxOS and haven't looked >>> back. >> >> Does PCLinuxOS has a comparable to ubuntu abilities to install additional >> packages? Is it debian based? >> >> >>> ------Original Message------ >>> From: Zbigniew Koziol >>> Sender: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >>> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >>> ReplyTo: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >>> Subject: [TLUG]: Ubuntu first time >>> Sent: Dec 30, 2011 13:24 >>> >>> Used am to CentOS. For years. >>> >>> For certain reasons I installed Ubuntu on my main desktop at home, the >>> latest one. >>> >>> And am frustrated enourmously. >>> >>> Yes, its Ubuntu Software Center works great. Unfortunately, if I wanted >>> to use Ubuntu at school where I have a small part time work I could not >>> - they have no Internet. >>> >>> However, I am sick with the menu on the left. Why these icons are so >>> large? The idea about this menu must have been invented by an insane >>> Windows users, right? Why i can not add my own icons of programs to >>> upper horizontal menu?Where is terminal configuaration? Why do I have to >>> click so many times to open a terminal? Where are terminal tabs? Why I >>> can not change screen window with a one mouse movement and a click? Why >>> firefox needs a new configuration? Ughrr... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >>> Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless NetworkN >>> ???'?????T??? ?.????)?? m?????n????2? ????-???? h?',6 ?0?+j?^?????>> ?-?CRP ?D?D??i??-j[ ????)"????)??+-s=== >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > PCLinuxOS is based on Mandriva, which is, itself, based on Red Hat. > If your question about additional packages means the ability to > download source files, RPMs, or binary packages, yes, it has that > ability as well. ?It also offers Synaptic [and, thus, apt-get] to > install packages. > > Through my experimentation with PCLinuxOS back in 2006/2007, I > discovered KeePassX, a cross platform password manager. ?While some of > my at work use Windows, the majority are Linux based. ?Having the > ability to access a single encrypted password file [CIFS share mounted > on each system] making management of the systems here much simpler. > > FYI, I just noticed the garbage at the end of my signature. ?Sorry for > that, I'll ensure I don't send anything from my BlackBerry until I > figure out how to change the formatting. > > Alex Gabriel > Dimensia Design Studio > alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org As another reason why I prefer to use PCLinuxOS, it natively supports Opera, my preferred web browser. I don't need to download the package using Firefox, and then install it, and remove Firefox. It's a small issue, of course, but if it means one less thing I have to do in the event I need to setup another system, so much the better. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 19:33:34 2011 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:33:34 +0400 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE01C1.4090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EFE120E.6040604@gmail.com> On 12/30/2011 11:14 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >> Used am to CentOS. For years. >> >> For certain reasons I installed Ubuntu on my main desktop at home, the >> latest one. >> >> And am frustrated enourmously. >> >> Yes, its Ubuntu Software Center works great. Unfortunately, if I wanted to >> use Ubuntu at school where I have a small part time work I could not - they >> have no Internet. >> >> However, I am sick with the menu on the left. Why these icons are so large? >> The idea about this menu must have been invented by an insane Windows users, >> right? Why i can not add my own icons of programs to upper horizontal > You can, just select Applications and then the ones you want can be > dragged over or added from the right-click menu. I do not seem to know how to do that ;) > >> menu?Where is terminal configuaration? Why do I have to click so many times >> to open a terminal? Where are terminal tabs? Why I can not change screen >> window with a one mouse movement and a click? Why firefox needs a new >> configuration? Ughrr... >> > When you log in, there should be an option for Gnome Classic or > something like that. It will give you the old Gnome 2 desktop that you > are used to. > This seems to be helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xDXeOsLQ3k sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback If I do not return soon means I am lost entirely or everything went very easy ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 19:34:40 2011 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:34:40 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4EFE01C1.4090709-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE01C1.4090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111230193440.GA30134@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 10:24:01PM +0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote > However, I am sick with the menu on the left. Why these icons are so > large? The idea about this menu must have been invented by an insane > Windows users, right? Why i can not add my own icons of programs to > upper horizontal menu?Where is terminal configuaration? Why do I have to > click so many times to open a terminal? Where are terminal tabs? Why I > can not change screen window with a one mouse movement and a click? Why > firefox needs a new configuration? Ughrr... Can you replace the desktop/WM? I use ICEWM. My favourite saying is... I don't run desktops, I run applications. ICEWM with a menu bar on the bottom is perfectly sufficient for me. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 19:42:23 2011 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:42:23 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> On 30/12/11 02:22 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: >> Through my experimentation with PCLinuxOS back in 2006/2007, I >> discovered KeePassX, a cross platform password manager. While some of >> my at work use Windows, the majority are Linux based. Having the >> ability to access a single encrypted password file [CIFS share mounted >> on each system] making management of the systems here much simpler. >> >> FYI, I just noticed the garbage at the end of my signature. Sorry for >> that, I'll ensure I don't send anything from my BlackBerry until I >> figure out how to change the formatting. > > As another reason why I prefer to use PCLinuxOS, it natively supports > Opera, my preferred web browser. I don't need to download the package > using Firefox, and then install it, and remove Firefox. It's a small > issue, of course, but if it means one less thing I have to do in the > event I need to setup another system, so much the better. Mint have an Opera deb: apt-cache madison opera opera | 11.60.1185-1linuxmint | http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian/import amd64 Packages With Mint you have your choice of the Gnome 3 or the forked version called Cinnamon that is designed to be similar to Gnome 2. Then there is very nice integration with KDE, XFCE or LXDE amongst other desktop environments. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 19:48:28 2011 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:48:28 +0400 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4EFE120E.6040604-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE01C1.4090709@gmail.com> <4EFE120E.6040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EFE158C.4070402@gmail.com> Thomas Milne, > >> When you log in, there should be an option for Gnome Classic or >> something like that. It will give you the old Gnome 2 desktop that you >> are used to. >> > > This seems to be helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xDXeOsLQ3k > > sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback > > If I do not return soon means I am lost entirely or everything went > very easy ;) > > You make my evening here, December 30 2011, 23:50. Gnome Classical works now on Ubuntu 11.10. I love it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 20:04:29 2011 From: alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:04:29 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4EFE141F.20607-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On 30 December 2011 14:42, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 30/12/11 02:22 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: >>> Through my experimentation with PCLinuxOS back in 2006/2007, I >>> discovered KeePassX, a cross platform password manager. ?While some of >>> my at work use Windows, the majority are Linux based. ?Having the >>> ability to access a single encrypted password file [CIFS share mounted >>> on each system] making management of the systems here much simpler. >>> >>> FYI, I just noticed the garbage at the end of my signature. ?Sorry for >>> that, I'll ensure I don't send anything from my BlackBerry until I >>> figure out how to change the formatting. >> >> As another reason why I prefer to use PCLinuxOS, it natively supports >> Opera, my preferred web browser. ?I don't need to download the package >> using Firefox, and then install it, and remove Firefox. ?It's a small >> issue, of course, but if it means one less thing I have to do in the >> event I need to setup another system, so much the better. > > Mint have an Opera deb: > > apt-cache madison opera > ? ? opera | 11.60.1185-1linuxmint | http://packages.linuxmint.com/ > debian/import amd64 Packages > > With Mint you have your choice of the Gnome 3 or the forked version > called Cinnamon that is designed to be similar to Gnome 2. Then there is > very nice integration with KDE, XFCE or LXDE amongst other desktop > environments. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists There are deb files on the Opera site as well, but I'd rather not have to add that step into the configuration necessary to get a new system up and running. I prefer to simply install the operating, and then run one command to install and configure everything I need. Yes, I'm aware that I could write a shell script to automate installation and configuration on *buntu, I just see no specific reason to switch to *buntu. I suppose I could have made my previous comments on PCLinuxOS a bit clearer. I initially found the distro [after playing with Fedora 5, and Mandrake], and installed it as my preferred distribution. Around the same time, my employer [now former employer], decided to move all desktops [except 3] and all servers to Linux. I applauded this idea, of course, until I discovered Kubuntu was the distro of choice. I've never been a big fan of some choices made by the *buntu developers, but the decision to select [using KDE] the Netbook interface [when using a netbook] or Unity [using GNOME] when installing [and without giving me the option to choose during install] really annoyed me when I encountered it. GNOME's Unity can be disabled, and the workspace in KDE can be changed, but why should I receive what someone else has determined is the "best configuration" for my system when Linux is being installed? I realize these minor interface issues can be rectified, but I'd rather have the choice to install the components I deem necessary to my use of a system as opposed to someone making choices for me. If I want my choices made for me, I'll switch to Apple products [insert mindless zombie/sheep noises here], and stop using Linux altogether. PCLinuxOS does, by default, install specific applications, but it is also very simple to remove them, and their configurations, if they are inadvertently installed. Moreover, there's a "MiniMe" variant that installs a much more slim version of the distro, so there's no bloat, unless I want it. I've noted that *buntu over the years has become more resource intensive, and I've no inclination to buy a new netbook/laptop/desktop every year or two. Alex Gabriel Dimensia Design Studio alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Dec 30 21:31:53 2011 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:31:53 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <377375425-1325269610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026081374-@b16.c8.bise6.blackberry> <4EFE0C85.2070108@gmail.com> <4EFE141F.20607@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: I really like mint Debian. It is great for me and I love the user interface and simplicity. The only thing I don't like is that I can't encrypt the drive easily on install. On Dec 30, 2011 3:05 PM, "Alex Gabriel" wrote: > On 30 December 2011 14:42, Jamon Camisso > wrote: > > On 30/12/11 02:22 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: > >>> Through my experimentation with PCLinuxOS back in 2006/2007, I > >>> discovered KeePassX, a cross platform password manager. While some of > >>> my at work use Windows, the majority are Linux based. Having the > >>> ability to access a single encrypted password file [CIFS share mounted > >>> on each system] making management of the systems here much simpler. > >>> > >>> FYI, I just noticed the garbage at the end of my signature. Sorry for > >>> that, I'll ensure I don't send anything from my BlackBerry until I > >>> figure out how to change the formatting. > >> > >> As another reason why I prefer to use PCLinuxOS, it natively supports > >> Opera, my preferred web browser. I don't need to download the package > >> using Firefox, and then install it, and remove Firefox. It's a small > >> issue, of course, but if it means one less thing I have to do in the > >> event I need to setup another system, so much the better. > > > > Mint have an Opera deb: > > > > apt-cache madison opera > > opera | 11.60.1185-1linuxmint | http://packages.linuxmint.com/ > > debian/import amd64 Packages > > > > With Mint you have your choice of the Gnome 3 or the forked version > > called Cinnamon that is designed to be similar to Gnome 2. Then there is > > very nice integration with KDE, XFCE or LXDE amongst other desktop > > environments. > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > There are deb files on the Opera site as well, but I'd rather not have > to add that step into the configuration necessary to get a new system > up and running. I prefer to simply install the operating, and then > run one command to install and configure everything I need. > > Yes, I'm aware that I could write a shell script to automate > installation and configuration on *buntu, I just see no specific > reason to switch to *buntu. > > I suppose I could have made my previous comments on PCLinuxOS a bit > clearer. I initially found the distro [after playing with Fedora 5, > and Mandrake], and installed it as my preferred distribution. Around > the same time, my employer [now former employer], decided to move all > desktops [except 3] and all servers to Linux. I applauded this idea, > of course, until I discovered Kubuntu was the distro of choice. > > I've never been a big fan of some choices made by the *buntu > developers, but the decision to select [using KDE] the Netbook > interface [when using a netbook] or Unity [using GNOME] when > installing [and without giving me the option to choose during install] > really annoyed me when I encountered it. > > GNOME's Unity can be disabled, and the workspace in KDE can be > changed, but why should I receive what someone else has determined is > the "best configuration" for my system when Linux is being installed? > > I realize these minor interface issues can be rectified, but I'd > rather have the choice to install the components I deem necessary to > my use of a system as opposed to someone making choices for me. If I > want my choices made for me, I'll switch to Apple products [insert > mindless zombie/sheep noises here], and stop using Linux altogether. > > PCLinuxOS does, by default, install specific applications, but it is > also very simple to remove them, and their configurations, if they are > inadvertently installed. Moreover, there's a "MiniMe" variant that > installs a much more slim version of the distro, so there's no bloat, > unless I want it. I've noted that *buntu over the years has become > more resource intensive, and I've no inclination to buy a new > netbook/laptop/desktop every year or two. > > Alex Gabriel > Dimensia Design Studio > alexgabriel-Nmj6Sl6vboSovDFt+AQlJdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 04:15:43 2011 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:15:43 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4EFE120E.6040604-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE01C1.4090709@gmail.com> <4EFE120E.6040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 2:33 PM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > This seems to be helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=5xDXeOsLQ3k > > sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback > Here's something for you to quickly skim through (under 30 seconds), instead of waiting for the video to unfold. Return to Ubuntu Classic Desktop in Ubuntu 11.10 http://www.liberiangeek.net/2011/08/return-to-ubuntu-classic-desktop-in-ubuntu-11-10/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 05:39:22 2011 From: antoniosun-N9AOi2cAC9ZBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Antonio Sun) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 00:39:22 -0500 Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: <4EFE0478.4030200-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4EFE01C1.4090709@gmail.com> <4EFE0478.4030200@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Digimer wrote: > It seems that all the major GUIs are re-inventing themselves for various > reasons. I decided to forget how I used to work and try to understand > the intended work-flow of Gnome 3, and now I love it. I actually find > the old Gnome 2 frustrating. > > All of the new GUIs will take time to get used to, but it will go a lot > easier if you don't try to hang on to old ways. . . > The good part of gnome-session-fallback is that, it allows you to fall back to Gnome Classical, and can also allow you try out Gnome 3 if you want. To open anything not in the default menu (e.g. terminal/xterm) in Gnome 3, Press 'meta' key (aka windows key), this will open the 'dash', click on 'more applications' start typing software-center in search box, when it's icon appears in first position, hit 'enter' key. Software-center icon is also located in the launcher (menu on the left side of desktop). For example, xterm is under installed apps, open the dash and start typing xterm, the first symbol in the row will execute when pressing [enter], gnome-terminal starts with ctrl+alt+t, run cmd with alt+f2. HTH -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Dec 31 20:08:53 2011 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:08:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ubuntu first time In-Reply-To: References: <4EFE01C1.4090709@gmail.com> <4EFE0478.4030200@alteeve.com> Message-ID: | From: Antonio Sun | Press 'meta' key (aka windows key) Interesting. The conventional mapping is to use the ALT key whenever Meta is called for. For example M-B (Meta-b) in EMACS conventionally means "back one word" and is typed by holding down ALT while hitting the B key. Conventionally, Meta is a kind of shift key (see also Bucky Bits (Bucky, as in Buckminster Fuller, was the nickname of Niclaus Wirth at Stanford)). The Windows key in Gnome 3 shell, at least for this use, is not a shift key. When I play with it, it doesn't seem to act as a shift key. So I don't think that calling the Windows Key "the meta key" is a good idea. Perhaps it could be called the "System Key" but it really is the Windows Key -- it has the trademark engraved on it. Now that I'm living with the Gnome 3 shell, I've used the Windows key regularly for the first time in my life. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists