From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 00:33:15 2010 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 20:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: <20100930150944.GV8580-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20100930150944.GV8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Lennart Sorensen wrote: ... > Well I have started using the firefox 4 beta version. So far I am > actually impressed. It is much faster and much less resource hungry > than firefox 3.x has been. Might be worth a try. I tried it, but none of the add-ons work with it, so back to 3.6.10. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 01:05:02 2010 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:05:02 -0400 Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101001010502.GA4259@node1.opengeometry.net> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:03:24AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > My FIrefox is exhibiting unpleasant behaviour and I wonder if anyone knows > how to deal with this. > > I started Firefox at 1:10 AM this morning and I used it for an hour or > two. It was OK. I could browse normally. Which, for me, means having > lots of windows and tabs open, effectively for weeks. > > Now, when I try to continue using it ~7 hours later, it is > non-responsive. Here's output from top: When you say, "non-responsive", do you see tabs displaying their current webpages, and can you move through them? On right-side end (where tabs would be), there is pull-down button (with triangle pointing downward). What happens when you click that? > > PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND > 2502 hugh 20 0 9269m 4.6g 9m R 100.0 79.1 497:19.60 firefox > > It is taking all the CPU available, and has for some time, even while > I sleep. It is also taking 9G of RAM, 4.6G of it being "resident" > (real, not virtual) on a machine with 6G. > > Some web page I have open must be the root of this problem. As a > further support to this theory, I've had to restart my browser a few > times recently for similar behaviour. I always open with the same > tabs as before the shutdown. > > - is there any way to identify which web pages are the problem? I > don't consider a trial-and-error search to be a useful approach. > > - is there any way to tell Firefox to limit the resources that it will > consume on behalf of one web page? > > Note: Flash is blamed for all sorts of browser problems. Not in this > case: I don't have Flash on my system. > > I capture the stderr and stdout from Firefox. This run generated no > messages. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gyre-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 03:08:29 2010 From: gyre-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Eric Battersby) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Off-topic: My employer is looking for 2-3 more Linux people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, Do you know if the Lexis Nexis was filled yet? Do you know of any other contract jobs, perferably Unix/Linux scripting, Perl, Oracle, SQL, etc.? -- Eric Battersby 647-403-5119 On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN) wrote: > Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:26:17 -0400 > From: "Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN)" > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: "Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN)" > Subject: [TLUG]: Off-topic: My employer is looking for 2-3 more Linux people > > Lexis Nexis, the legal publishing company (whom you may know as > QuickLaw) needs as many as three junior through intermediate Linux > people, for a long-term effort refactoring their Web and eBook > publishing systems. > > If you're interested you primarily need Linux and text processing > experience, either XML processing or classic lexing and parsing. It > would also help if you also know agile methods, java and at least one > scripting language. > > I'll be at Tuesday's meeting, anyone interested can speak to me > afterwards, and I'm of course also available by email. > > --dave > -- > David Collier-Brown, > (905) 479-2665 x306 > > > --dave > -- > David Collier-Brown, > (905) 479-2665 x306 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 13:11:23 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: <20101001010502.GA4259-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101001010502.GA4259@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: | From: William Park | When you say, "non-responsive", do you see tabs displaying their current | webpages, and can you move through them? | | On right-side end (where tabs would be), there is pull-down button (with | triangle pointing downward). What happens when you click that? | > PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND | > 2502 hugh 20 0 9269m 4.6g 9m R 100.0 79.1 497:19.60 firefox PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 2423 hugh 20 0 2561m 1.5g 27m S 86.0 26.1 243:10.44 firefox This morning, Firefox is still responsive. Even though it is eating a lot of CPU and RAM, I still have 3 CPUs that it isn't eating (good thing it isn't multithreaded) and resident set size is "only" 1.5G, leaving more than 4G for the rest of us. Perhaps this is because FF has only been running 7 hours. So: I cannot run William's tests yet. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 13:21:25 2010 From: jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (JOSE) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 09:21:25 -0400 Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: <20100930150944.GV8580-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20100930150944.GV8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CA5E055.1080105@totaltravelmarketing.com> On 9/30/2010 11:09 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:03:24AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> My FIrefox is exhibiting unpleasant behaviour and I wonder if anyone knows >> how to deal with this. >> >> I started Firefox at 1:10 AM this morning and I used it for an hour or >> two. It was OK. I could browse normally. Which, for me, means having >> lots of windows and tabs open, effectively for weeks. >> >> Now, when I try to continue using it ~7 hours later, it is >> non-responsive. Here's output from top: >> >> PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND >> 2502 hugh 20 0 9269m 4.6g 9m R 100.0 79.1 497:19.60 firefox >> >> It is taking all the CPU available, and has for some time, even while >> I sleep. It is also taking 9G of RAM, 4.6G of it being "resident" >> (real, not virtual) on a machine with 6G. >> >> Some web page I have open must be the root of this problem. As a >> further support to this theory, I've had to restart my browser a few >> times recently for similar behaviour. I always open with the same >> tabs as before the shutdown. >> >> - is there any way to identify which web pages are the problem? I >> don't consider a trial-and-error search to be a useful approach. >> >> - is there any way to tell Firefox to limit the resources that it will >> consume on behalf of one web page? >> >> Note: Flash is blamed for all sorts of browser problems. Not in this >> case: I don't have Flash on my system. >> >> I capture the stderr and stdout from Firefox. This run generated no >> messages. > > Well I have started using the firefox 4 beta version. So far I am > actually impressed. It is much faster and much less resource hungry > than firefox 3.x has been. Might be worth a try. > > It hasn't crashed yet. > I have found that even without flash, FF would take resources, mainly to some page having a loop script trying to load its content on the page. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From David.Collier-Brown-ghy6y1RO5ssFyWsGDH9TEg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 13:54:17 2010 From: David.Collier-Brown-ghy6y1RO5ssFyWsGDH9TEg at public.gmane.org (Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN)) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:54:17 -0400 Subject: Off-topic: My employer is looking for 2-3 more Linux people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We're still looking for a second person... --dave -----Original Message----- From: Eric Battersby [mailto:gyre-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 11:08 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Cc: Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN) Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Off-topic: My employer is looking for 2-3 more Linux people Dave, Do you know if the Lexis Nexis was filled yet? Do you know of any other contract jobs, perferably Unix/Linux scripting, Perl, Oracle, SQL, etc.? -- Eric Battersby 647-403-5119 On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN) wrote: > Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:26:17 -0400 > From: "Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN)" > Reply-To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Cc: "Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN)" > Subject: [TLUG]: Off-topic: My employer is looking for 2-3 more Linux people > > Lexis Nexis, the legal publishing company (whom you may know as > QuickLaw) needs as many as three junior through intermediate Linux > people, for a long-term effort refactoring their Web and eBook > publishing systems. > > If you're interested you primarily need Linux and text processing > experience, either XML processing or classic lexing and parsing. It > would also help if you also know agile methods, java and at least one > scripting language. > > I'll be at Tuesday's meeting, anyone interested can speak to me > afterwards, and I'm of course also available by email. > > --dave > -- > David Collier-Brown, > (905) 479-2665 x306 > > > --dave > -- > David Collier-Brown, > (905) 479-2665 x306 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 14:43:02 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: <4CA5E055.1080105-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK@public.gmane.org> References: <20100930150944.GV8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CA5E055.1080105@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: | From: JOSE | I have found that even without flash, FF would take resources, mainly to some | page having a loop script trying to load its content on the page. Interesting hint. (I don't run flash.) While the browser was running, but I was not browsing, I ran /usr/sbin/tcpdump -i eth0 port for a minute and got 7454 packets captured 7535 packets received by filter 81 packets dropped by kernel Yikes! So fast that the kernel is dropping them! More than 100 per second! 30 "different" sites, not all discernable via their reverse lookup, but many are related. Have I got an infection? If I do, it is running in FF since there is no port 80 traffic when I shut it down. The the most packets to or from a single destination is 707 to and 643 back from mpr1.ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com. Number two is 216.154.11.41 (659 to and 330 back). It doesn't resolve but is in a range assigned to look.ca. Look.ca was my former ISP and even though the ADSL business was sold to Telnet Communications, my gateway's IP address is still assigned to Look Communications. I don't know if that is relevant. Here are the different sites, in alphabetic order so that groups can be inferred. Each is prefixed by the count of packets transferred. For each IP address that could not be reversed, I've added the name whois says is assigned that address. Count Site [Organization Name] 90 128.242.250.155 [NTT America Enterprise Hosting - San Jose] 191 208.68.159.63 [Alurium Hosting] 154 216.154.11.40 [Look Communications Inc.] 989 216.154.11.41 [Look Communications Inc.] 106 216.154.11.42 [Look Communications Inc.] 596 66.151.61.142 [the Rubicon project] 112 70.33.205.133 [Eye Return PEER1-EYERETURN-02] 43 70.33.205.136 [Eye Return PEER1-EYERETURN-02] 11 72.21.91.19 [EdgeCast Networks, Inc.] 20 76.74.140.165 [Eye Return PEER1-EYERETURN-02] 52 8.17.87.173 [Joyent, Inc.] 103 a173-222-184-74.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com 176 cookex1.cl1.ads.adx.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 407 cookex1.cl2.ads.adx.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 194 ec2-75-101-227-132.compute-1.amazonaws.com 3 mojofarm.mediaplex.com 319 mpr1.2ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 1350 mpr1.ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 791 mpr5.ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 32 mpr8.ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 661 pixel.quantserve.com 3 pz-in-f139.1e100.net 20 tlvmedia.com 13 vip1.G-anycast1.cachefly.net 179 www.globeandmail.com 24 yyz06s05-in-f100.1e100.net 28 yyz06s05-in-f104.1e100.net 351 yyz06s05-in-f148.1e100.net 397 yyz06s05-in-f154.1e100.net 39 yyz06s05-in-f164.1e100.net There are so many different sites that I suspect that the traffic is due to several tabs that I have open. I sure wish that I could easily ascribe traffic to a tab. Is there any tool to do that? I guess I can capture the packets and see what they are actually saying. Think of the wasted bandwidth! I say "wasted" because it isn't doing anything I want done (I wasn't actually using the browser). I guess, in some sense, I've been infected: sites I visit are using my resources without my intent or knowledge. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From David.Collier-Brown-ghy6y1RO5ssFyWsGDH9TEg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 15:22:46 2010 From: David.Collier-Brown-ghy6y1RO5ssFyWsGDH9TEg at public.gmane.org (Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN)) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 11:22:46 -0400 Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: References: <20100930150944.GV8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CA5E055.1080105@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: I use the "net" tab of Firebug to look at the over-the-wire behavior of individual pages, and see amazing masses of dreck... Things found by tcpdump and not shown by firebug for a given period would definitely be suspicious. --dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of D. Hugh Redelmeier Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 10:43 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: firefox grows, taking over all resources | From: JOSE | I have found that even without flash, FF would take resources, mainly to some | page having a loop script trying to load its content on the page. Interesting hint. (I don't run flash.) While the browser was running, but I was not browsing, I ran /usr/sbin/tcpdump -i eth0 port for a minute and got 7454 packets captured 7535 packets received by filter 81 packets dropped by kernel Yikes! So fast that the kernel is dropping them! More than 100 per second! 30 "different" sites, not all discernable via their reverse lookup, but many are related. Have I got an infection? If I do, it is running in FF since there is no port 80 traffic when I shut it down. The the most packets to or from a single destination is 707 to and 643 back from mpr1.ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com. Number two is 216.154.11.41 (659 to and 330 back). It doesn't resolve but is in a range assigned to look.ca. Look.ca was my former ISP and even though the ADSL business was sold to Telnet Communications, my gateway's IP address is still assigned to Look Communications. I don't know if that is relevant. Here are the different sites, in alphabetic order so that groups can be inferred. Each is prefixed by the count of packets transferred. For each IP address that could not be reversed, I've added the name whois says is assigned that address. Count Site [Organization Name] 90 128.242.250.155 [NTT America Enterprise Hosting - San Jose] 191 208.68.159.63 [Alurium Hosting] 154 216.154.11.40 [Look Communications Inc.] 989 216.154.11.41 [Look Communications Inc.] 106 216.154.11.42 [Look Communications Inc.] 596 66.151.61.142 [the Rubicon project] 112 70.33.205.133 [Eye Return PEER1-EYERETURN-02] 43 70.33.205.136 [Eye Return PEER1-EYERETURN-02] 11 72.21.91.19 [EdgeCast Networks, Inc.] 20 76.74.140.165 [Eye Return PEER1-EYERETURN-02] 52 8.17.87.173 [Joyent, Inc.] 103 a173-222-184-74.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com 176 cookex1.cl1.ads.adx.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 407 cookex1.cl2.ads.adx.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 194 ec2-75-101-227-132.compute-1.amazonaws.com 3 mojofarm.mediaplex.com 319 mpr1.2ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 1350 mpr1.ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 791 mpr5.ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 32 mpr8.ngd.vip.ac4.yahoo.com 661 pixel.quantserve.com 3 pz-in-f139.1e100.net 20 tlvmedia.com 13 vip1.G-anycast1.cachefly.net 179 www.globeandmail.com 24 yyz06s05-in-f100.1e100.net 28 yyz06s05-in-f104.1e100.net 351 yyz06s05-in-f148.1e100.net 397 yyz06s05-in-f154.1e100.net 39 yyz06s05-in-f164.1e100.net There are so many different sites that I suspect that the traffic is due to several tabs that I have open. I sure wish that I could easily ascribe traffic to a tab. Is there any tool to do that? I guess I can capture the packets and see what they are actually saying. Think of the wasted bandwidth! I say "wasted" because it isn't doing anything I want done (I wasn't actually using the browser). I guess, in some sense, I've been infected: sites I visit are using my resources without my intent or knowledge. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 18:10:52 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 14:10:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: References: <20100930150944.GV8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CA5E055.1080105@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: | From: "Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN)" | I use the "net" tab of Firebug to look at the over-the-wire behavior of | individual pages, and see amazing masses of dreck... I didn't know about firebug. So I installed it. Now my browser is unresponsive all the time :-( The resident set size is still not all of my memory, so it must be a CPU issue. Now I have to figure out how to uninstall it without a responsive browser. I guess I'll have to lose mey open tabs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 19:23:23 2010 From: jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (JOSE) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:23:23 -0400 Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: References: <20100930150944.GV8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CA5E055.1080105@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: <4CA6352B.8070405@totaltravelmarketing.com> On 10/1/2010 2:10 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: "Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN)" > > | I use the "net" tab of Firebug to look at the over-the-wire behavior of > | individual pages, and see amazing masses of dreck... > > I didn't know about firebug. So I installed it. Now my browser is > unresponsive all the time :-( > > The resident set size is still not all of my memory, so it must be a CPU > issue. > > Now I have to figure out how to uninstall it without a responsive browser. > I guess I'll have to lose mey open tabs. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > if you kill the process, it should prompt you with a page allowing you to select which pages want to start up again for that session -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 19:37:01 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:37:01 -0400 Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: References: <20100930150944.GV8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CA5E055.1080105@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: <4CA6385D.2000607@dinamis.com> On 10/01/2010 02:10 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Now I have to figure out how to uninstall it without a responsive browser. > I guess I'll have to lose mey open tabs. Kill FF and bring down your network interface. Start FF and it will try to connect to all those sites but it can't so FF will work in "offline" mode. Uninstall Firebug, bring up your network interface, and selectively refresh the browser tabs until you find which one breaks the camel's back. (Talk about mixed metaphors.) You could also disable Firebug and enable it selectively for when you need it, as I do. Firebug is the number one reason I use Firefox. Without it, web development would be much more difficult. The Net tab, as David CB pointed out, is useful. By the way, I've noticed sites using eyereturn.com are often terribly slow. Perhaps a solution is to set eyereturn.com to 127.0.0.1 in your hosts file. :) -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 19:50:23 2010 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 12:50:23 -0700 Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: <4CA6385D.2000607-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20100930150944.GV8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CA5E055.1080105@totaltravelmarketing.com> <4CA6385D.2000607@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:37 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > By the way, I've noticed sites using eyereturn.com are often terribly slow. > Perhaps a solution is to set eyereturn.com to 127.0.0.1 in your hosts file. 0.0.0.0 would be better than 127.0.0.1. I think it fails immediately, rather than trying to connect to localhost. Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 21:20:04 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 17:20:04 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... Message-ID: I trust folks have seen articles such as: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/09/there-is-no-plan-b-why-the-ipv4-to-ipv6-transition-will-be-ugly.ars that explain why things are going to HURT as we move (because we have to) from IPv4 to IPv6. So, questions to be tossed around, which ISPs support IPv6, as in, if I wanted to set-up an IPv6 tunnel over IPv4 now, who does that? In terms of hardware, I have an OLD Linksys WRT54G (one of the ones that supports Linux) router, which I know can be converted to firmware that supports IPv6 (see http://openwrt.org/), but what other "consumer/small office" grade hardware supports/can be made to support IPv6? Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 1 22:24:07 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:24:07 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA65F87.5020105@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > So, questions to be tossed around, which ISPs support IPv6, as in, if > I wanted to set-up an IPv6 tunnel over IPv4 now, who does that? I use http://gogonet.gogo6.com for a tunnel broker. They have a client for Linux, which does 6in4 tunneling to their site in Montreal. There is also he.net in Toronto, among others. I have my Linux firewall configured to provide a subnet with 2^72 addresses* on it, but the client can also be configured for a single address, as I do on my ThinkPad. I use Rogers for my ISP and I haven't heard anything from them about IPv6. *Yes, that's right. My own personal subnet is about a trillion times the size of the entire, world wide, IPv4 Internet! The subnets he.net provides are 256x bigger. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andmalc-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 2 00:57:34 2010 From: andmalc-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 20:57:34 -0400 Subject: Nokia CS-18 Rocket stick from Rogers In-Reply-To: <20100930182756.GX8580-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20100929000357.13f90917.tleslie@tcn.net> <20100930182756.GX8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Update on the 6G/$30 plan: Signups extended to 10/5 Overage is .50 cents/M up to $60, and .03 cents/M after up to $500. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 2 01:36:49 2010 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:36:49 -0400 Subject: firefox grows, taking over all resources In-Reply-To: References: <4CA6385D.2000607@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <201010012136.50176.amarjan@pobox.com> On October 1, 2010 03:50:23 pm Ian Petersen wrote: > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:37 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY > > wrote: > > By the way, I've noticed sites using eyereturn.com are often terribly > > slow. Perhaps a solution is to set eyereturn.com to 127.0.0.1 in your > > hosts file. > > 0.0.0.0 would be better than 127.0.0.1. I think it fails immediately, > rather than trying to connect to localhost. > > Ian The noscript extension is a must for any moderately savvy web user. It defaults to disabling javascript and content plugins, and lets you easily whitelist (permanently or temporarily) any sites you like. It's amazing how much leaner Firefox is, and how much faster the web is in general, with this extension. It also includes protection against quite an assortment of browser attacks, like many types of XSS, clickjacking, etc. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 2 05:13:09 2010 From: teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 01:13:09 -0400 Subject: tlug archives Message-ID: <4CA6BF65.7000205@gmail.com> Is there a TLUG archives in the mailing list? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 2 05:31:49 2010 From: gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 01:31:49 -0400 Subject: tlug archives In-Reply-To: <4CA6BF65.7000205-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA6BF65.7000205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA6C3C5.4030906@teksavvy.com> On 10/02/2010 01:13 AM, teddy mills wrote: > Is there a TLUG archives in the mailing list? > http://news.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.tolug/ -- Glen Strom gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 00:18:51 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 20:18:51 -0400 Subject: linux security books Message-ID: <4CA7CBEB.6080601@gmail.com> can someone recommend me a good linux security book? i just want it to cover the fundamentals and also explain how to configure and set up ssl. i want to setup a subversion server over ssl at home that i can access from outside, i am behind a router firewall so i need to know a few things about basic system hardening and monitoring as well. thanks! -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 00:31:09 2010 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:31:09 -0400 Subject: linux security books In-Reply-To: <4CA7CBEB.6080601-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA7CBEB.6080601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101002203109.f31dca03.tleslie@tcn.net> i think a question similar was posted before recently, and i agree, and reiterate answer here, turn off all ports, and use knock for the ssl, that way it appears all down to an outside port sniffer, yet you knock and it opens. not sure there are book that would help much, much better just to ask for advice here :) tl On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 20:18:51 -0400 Rajinder Yadav wrote: > can someone recommend me a good linux security book? i just want it to > cover the fundamentals and also explain how to configure and set up ssl. > > i want to setup a subversion server over ssl at home that i can access > from outside, i am behind a router firewall so i need to know a few > things about basic system hardening and monitoring as well. > > thanks! > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 02:13:53 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 22:13:53 -0400 Subject: vnc setup questions Message-ID: <4CA7E6E1.1060400@gmail.com> guys i just got done with a vnc basic setup running, i installed x11vnc on my debina server and xvnc4viewer on my workstation. do i need to worry about using ssl for vnc to avoid man in the middle exploits/snooping ? are there better faster viewers that you are happy with? -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 02:59:36 2010 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 22:59:36 -0400 Subject: vnc setup questions In-Reply-To: <4CA7E6E1.1060400-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA7E6E1.1060400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101002225936.78b76049.tleslie@tcn.net> if you are worried, i would set up a openswan ipsec vpn, then tunnel what ever you want. use AES256. tl On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 22:13:53 -0400 Rajinder Yadav wrote: > guys i just got done with a vnc basic setup running, i installed x11vnc > on my debina server and xvnc4viewer on my workstation. > > do i need to worry about using ssl for vnc to avoid man in the middle > exploits/snooping ? are there better faster viewers that you are happy with? > > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 08:13:42 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 04:13:42 -0400 Subject: vnc setup questions In-Reply-To: <20101002225936.78b76049.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA7E6E1.1060400@gmail.com> <20101002225936.78b76049.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <4CA83B36.2090500@gmail.com> On 10-10-02 10:59 PM, ted leslie wrote: > > if you are worried, i would set up a openswan ipsec vpn, then tunnel what ever you want. > use AES256. ted thanks for pointing out i only replied to you! i still have much learning to do, i had to lookup what ipsec even stood for =P i came across this nice guide if anyone else is interested http://unixwiz.net/techtips/iguide-ipsec.html Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 09:41:13 2010 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 06:41:13 -0300 Subject: linux security books In-Reply-To: <4CA7CBEB.6080601-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA7CBEB.6080601@gmail.com> Message-ID: As I can see, you're not just looking for a ssl tutorial, but also content about security, right?! You can check this magazine (for free): http://www.net-security.org/insecuremag.php You can also check their archive and download it all. And about books, I would recommend these: Security Power Tools - http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596009632/ Network Security Hacks - http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596527631/ Practical Unix and internet security - http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596003234/ Security Monitoring - http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596518165/ Silence on the wire - http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781593270469/ Have fun. ;] --- - ?v? Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha / Kalib - /(_)\ ITIL V3 Foundation Certified | Certified Scrum Master - ^ ^ Usu?rio Linux #407564 / Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 - GNU-Linux - Livre, Poderoso e Seguro - TUX-CE Member - www.tux-ce.org - KDE Brasil Member - TLUG Member - Toronto Linux User Group - http://www.marcelocavalcante.net On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > can someone recommend me a good linux security book? i just want it to > cover the fundamentals and also explain how to configure and set up ssl. > > i want to setup a subversion server over ssl at home that i can access from > outside, i am behind a router firewall so i need to know a few things about > basic system hardening and monitoring as well. > > thanks! > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 15:22:15 2010 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 11:22:15 -0400 Subject: linux security books In-Reply-To: <4CA7CBEB.6080601-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA7CBEB.6080601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA89FA7.5060708@gmail.com> On 10/2/2010 8:18 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > i am behind a router firewall If you're behind a router-firewall, you've already most of the way there. Check your router manufacturer site to make sure there are no recent firmware patches to your router. There have been attacks against the routers themselves. Ensure that the router cannot be remotely administered, or if it can, that it has a stunningly complex password, because it will be attacked endlessly, and are you *really* going to watch it? If the router does wifi, use WPA or better (Only WPA2 should be considered actually secure) remember that anyone on the wifi network can get into your home network. It sounds like you're learning, and you're also talking about protocols like VNC. Free versions of VNC are not secure without some kind of tunnel. The following is a very lazy configuration: - patch and secure your router/firewall - set your computer to automatically install security updates to ssh - use your router to forward port 22 to serve ssh to the Internet - configure ssh to not allow root logins. If you must allow root logins, force ssh keys. - Use strong passwords on all your ssh accounts and don't give accounts to anyone you don't trust to use a strong password. - Do a portscan from a free remote portscanning website to ensure you got your router config right. To reach your code repository, use SSH port forwarding, it's a poor-man's tunnel, but ssh is easy to maintain. You can do the same for VNC. You can even use ssh to tunnel back to your router to remotely administer it without remote administration being enabled. The end result is that you're sharing one well-known, well-trusted and well patched service (SSH) to access all services on your machine. In this configuration, you don't need to bother with SSL either. If you want to be paranoid, configure the server to only serve http on 127.0.0.1, then you can only reach it locally or from your ssh tunnel. The principle here is to simplify, expose as little as possible and then secure, maintain and monitor what's exposed. ...the books will tell you how to open up the configuration securely to do more interesting things. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 16:07:09 2010 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:07:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Zyxel Linux firmware sources Message-ID: The $subj are not to be found. New vdsl Zyxel modem supplied by local telco (Romania) has linux 2.6.21.x on it, a BCM CPU and no trace of GPL message or source download. A firmware image exists online, with no comments and no licenses. The kernel build time is forzen with a CF timezone (Likely Canadian Francais...). Any ideas where sources can be located? The modem has serious bugs and I need to fix it asap. More data: # cat /proc/cpuinfo system type : 96368VVW processor : 0 cpu model : BCM6368 V3.1 BogoMIPS : 398.95 wait instruction : no microsecond timers : yes tlb_entries : 32 extra interrupt vector : no hardware watchpoint : no ASEs implemented : VCED exceptions : not available VCEI exceptions : not available unaligned exceptions : 6690367 # cat /proc/version Linux version 2.6.21.5 (kuanjung at moses) (gcc version 4.2.3) #1 Wed Jul 1 19:31:37 CST 2009 Additionally it seems that the software is a seriously crippled busybox with no license message anywhere, and with ls and other key commands removed to avoid inspection. The binary only 'firmware' from the maker's website contains a pdf manual which makes mention of kernel 2.6.21.5 and has no GPL anywhere in it, but boldly claims that " Date: Nov 25, 2009 Author: KuanJung Tung Reviewer: Jerry Chang THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS PROPRIETARY TECHNICAL INFORMATION THAT IS THE PROPERTY OF THE ZyXEL AND SHOULD NOT BE DISCLOSED TO OTHERS IN WHOLE OR IN PART, REPRODUCED, COPIED, OR USED AS BASIS FOR DESIGN, MANUFACTURING OR SALE OF APPARATUS WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION OF ZyXEL. " and later in the same manual: " Versions: Bootbase version: V1.10 | 09/30/2009 Firmware version: 101AWZ6 Kernel version: 2.6.21.5 DSL code version: A2pv6bC012d.d21k5 WLAN code version: 5.10.85.0.cpe4.402.8 " Monsieur KuanJung Tung please stand up and be counted. tia, -- Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 17:01:24 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Zyxel Linux firmware sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Peter | Additionally it seems that the software is a seriously crippled busybox with no | license message anywhere, and with ls and other key commands removed to avoid | inspection. All too common. There are folks that fight this. It depends very much on local legal system. How is Romania's system? Harald Welte was (is?) very involved in this: The Software Freedom Law Center / Software Freedom Conservancy has been assigned the copyright for BusyBox and has been using it. It probably only has US reach. They don't have tools to defend Linux. Have you looked here? The wording leads me to suspect that SFLC has been talking to them. In fact, googling shows that the SFLC/SFC has sued Zyxel: (The GPL has a quirk that makes some of this difficult. Once you are out of compliance, there is no way to get back in except for all the copyright holders agreeing. So a settlement to a suit cannot do that for Linux since there are untracked thousands of copyright holders who would have to sign off. At least in theory.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 17:03:00 2010 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 13:03:00 -0400 Subject: getting recent drivers/kernel with Debian Message-ID: I have Debian 5.0.6 on Linux kernel 2.6.26-2-686. I would like to get the newer drivers without moving to an unstable versoin Is there a way to do that easily? (That being one of the main putative attractions of Debian after all.) Thanks ../Dace -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 17:07:40 2010 From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:07:40 -0400 Subject: getting recent drivers/kernel with Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not certain of the Debian way to do it, but since it's linux, you can go on over to http://kernel.org and grab a newer version of the kernel, compile it, install it, add it to your bootloader and reboot. Since the latest versions are 2.6.3X and you are 2.2.26, you "should" be able to use your same config file (always double check though) so that all of the current modules and options you have should be included with the new one. I'd assume there's a more Debian way to do it though. -jason On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Dave Mason wrote: > I have Debian 5.0.6 on Linux kernel 2.6.26-2-686. I would like to get the > newer drivers without moving to an unstable versoin > > Is there a way to do that easily? (That being one of the main putative > attractions of Debian after all.) > > Thanks ../Dace > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 17:21:31 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:21:31 -0400 Subject: getting recent drivers/kernel with Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Jason Shaw wrote: > I'm not certain of the Debian way to do it, but since it's linux, you can go > on over to http://kernel.org and grab a newer version of the kernel, compile > it, install it, add it to your bootloader and reboot. > Since the latest versions are 2.6.3X and you are 2.2.26, you "should" be > able to use your same config file (always double check though) so that all > of the current modules and options you have should be included with the new > one. > I'd assume there's a more Debian way to do it though. Yeah, you can readily turn your favorite kernel into a Debian package. http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-kernel.en.html So... -------------- Users who wish to (or must) build a custom kernel are encouraged to download the package kernel-package. This package contains the script to build the kernel package, and provides the capability to create a Debian linux-image-version package just by running the command make-kpkg --initrd kernel_image in the top-level kernel source directory. Help is available by executing the command make-kpkg --help and through the manual page make-kpkg(1). Users must separately download the source code for the most recent kernel (or the kernel of their choice) from their favorite Linux archive site, unless a linux-source-version package is available (where version stands for the kernel version). Detailed instructions for using the kernel-package package are given in the file /usr/share/doc/kernel-package/README.gz. -------------- -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 18:15:26 2010 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 18:15:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Zyxel Linux firmware sources References: Message-ID: D. Hugh Redelmeier writes: > It depends very much on local legal system. How is Romania's system? Technically it's part of the EU and should work with EU rules on this, in practice there are too many other problems for this to be a priority. Thanks for the links, I did not know Zyxel had a brush in with the enforcers. Still the way in which the software must be requested, by email, is dodgy. Anyway, that's the way they want it then well that's it. I assume that they continue to try to put liens on it by claiming you cannot publish it or otherwise display it?! That's the only reason I know for not putting it on a website. thanks, -- Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 19:51:48 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 15:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Zyxel Linux firmware sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Peter | Still the way in which the software must be requested, by email, is dodgy. | Anyway, that's the way they want it then well that's it. I assume that they | continue to try to put liens on it by claiming you cannot publish it or | otherwise display it?! That's the only reason I know for not putting it on a | website. The original GPL predates ubiquitous internet. So putting it up for internet download doesn't technically satisfy the GPL. That may be why they offer the source through an email request -- strict adherence to the GPL. You should get a copy of the GPLed code with no additional restrictions (modulo patent and trademark issues). That's what the GPL requires. You would then be free to put it on the internet yourself. Perhaps github? Note: the source you get is most likely not enough for you to build a new firmware load. Parts of the firmware image likely include proprietary things like a GUI for operating the device. The manufacturer will probably claim that kernel modules to drive specific devices are not GPLed; this claim is common but not clearly true. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 20:01:51 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:01:51 -0400 Subject: Zyxel Linux firmware sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 3:51 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Note: the source you get is most likely not enough for you to build a new > firmware load. ?Parts of the firmware image likely include proprietary > things like a GUI for operating the device. ?The manufacturer will > probably claim that kernel modules to drive specific devices are not > GPLed; this claim is common but not clearly true. Well, and anything from /sbin/init onwards is NOT "linked to the kernel," and could very well be implemented independently by the vendor. With the Kobo, that appears to be the case. There's a project at GitHub publishing the GPLed bits, which are the kernel, BusyBox, and various libraries. There are presumably rather material portions beyond that which were written by the Kobo folk that aren't GPLed or linked to GPLed code. If you boot one at a Chapters store, you'll see a message mentioning that there's Adobe code in there. (Interesting that they'd thus advertise Adobe!) -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 20:10:18 2010 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:10:18 -0400 Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router Message-ID: Hi Guys, Canada Computers is down, can anyone suggest a good cheap router that'll run Tomato and OpenWRT? -- Dave Germiquet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 20:10:58 2010 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:10:58 -0400 Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: and some locations to buy it. On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Canada Computers is down, can anyone suggest a good cheap router that'll > run Tomato and OpenWRT? > > -- > > > > Dave Germiquet > > -- Dave Germiquet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlow-AZu5J0u3PMt/LtIqEKMDMfN90d+awN/n at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 3 20:31:18 2010 From: tlow-AZu5J0u3PMt/LtIqEKMDMfN90d+awN/n at public.gmane.org (Tom Low-Shang) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:31:18 -0400 Subject: getting recent drivers/kernel with Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101003203118.GA3641@goblin.tomlowshang.bogus> On Sun, Oct 03, 2010 at 01:03:00PM -0400, Dave Mason wrote: > I have Debian 5.0.6 on Linux kernel 2.6.26-2-686. I would like to > get the newer drivers without moving to an unstable versoin > > Is there a way to do that easily? (That being one of the main > putative attractions of Debian after all.) http://backports.debian.org/ has 2.6.32 kernel packages for lenny. -- Tom Low-Shang : Email : tlow-AZu5J0u3PMt/LtIqEKMDMfN90d+awN/n at public.gmane.org Skype : tomlowshang XMPP : tomlowshang-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 00:07:02 2010 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499123.25771.qm@web51808.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ASUS WL-520GU I believe that it'll run Tomato and OpenWRT. I am still running the stock ASUS firmware on it though. I bought this from Infonec when there was a rebate on it; it should be available from Canada Computers as well. -- Salman Ahmed ________________________________ From: Dave Germiquet To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 4:10:18 PM Subject: [TLUG]: anyone can suggest a good cheap router Hi Guys, Canada Computers is down, can anyone suggest a good cheap router that'll run Tomato and OpenWRT? -- Dave Germiquet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 00:31:51 2010 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:31:51 -0400 Subject: getting recent drivers/kernel with Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Dave Mason wrote: > I have Debian 5.0.6 on Linux kernel 2.6.26-2-686. ?I would like to get the > newer drivers without moving to an unstable versoin > > Is there a way to do that easily? ?(That being one of the main putative > attractions of Debian after all.) I recently needed the fixes and drivers of a more recent kernel myself... This is how I compiled a kernel within my home directory the 'debian way' running all commands as a non-privileged user except for Step 2 and Step 5. Step 1: Download the most recent stable kernel source (currently 2.6.35.7) from kernel.org Step 2: Install: aptitude install build-essential fakeroot kernel-package libncurses5-dev Step 3: Configure Pull in the working config of the currently installed kernel and only prompt for new config options... make oldconfig If you want to make further config modifications... make menuconfig Step 4: Compile make-kpkg clean grep -c '^processor' /proc/cpuinfo * get the number of CPUs for concurrency export CONCURRENCY_LEVEL=4 fakeroot make-kpkg --append-to-version "-custom0" --revision "2010.10.03" --initrd kernel_image kernel_headers Step 5: Install dpkg -i linux-image...deb *confirm that the initrd is created and grub updated dpkg -i linux-headers...deb I am currently running Debian unstable with a 2.6.35.7 kernel. Hope this helps! -- ?? ((@)) (\__/) -- Daniel (=.= ) -- http://circuidipity.com (")_(") -- http://identi.ca/dwa -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 01:34:48 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 21:34:48 -0400 Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Dave Germiquet wrote: > and some locations to buy it. > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Dave Germiquet > wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> Canada Computers is down, can anyone suggest a good cheap router that'll >> run Tomato and OpenWRT? Well, there is the "classic" answer, the Linksys WRT54GL and one of the places you can get is: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1820385&sku=L48-2468 TigerDirect is typically not the cheapest place to get stuff, but they do have a well laid out website... TigerDirect does do mail order and they do have a few stores in the GTA. >> -- >> >> >> >> Dave Germiquet >> > > > > -- > > > > Dave Germiquet > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 01:49:53 2010 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 21:49:53 -0400 Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which is better the ASUS WL-520GU or the Linksys 54or the Linksys WRT54GL.... The Asus is about 10-20 dollars cheaper... And they have a couple at Canada Computers new location on college...Any suggestions? On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 9:34 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Dave Germiquet > wrote: > > and some locations to buy it. > > > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Dave Germiquet > > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Guys, > >> > >> Canada Computers is down, can anyone suggest a good cheap router that'll > >> run Tomato and OpenWRT? > > Well, there is the "classic" answer, the Linksys WRT54GL and one of > the places you can get is: > > > http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1820385&sku=L48-2468 > > TigerDirect is typically not the cheapest place to get stuff, but they > do have a well laid out website... TigerDirect does do mail order and > they do have a few stores in the GTA. > > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> Dave Germiquet > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Dave Germiquet > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Dave Germiquet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 01:52:32 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 21:52:32 -0400 Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: <499123.25771.qm-0TFTB1ODR9iB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <499123.25771.qm@web51808.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Any options with wireless-n? I'm also interested, but since all computers at home support N, might as well get something a bit better. - FZ On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 20:07, Salman Ahmed wrote: > ASUS WL-520GU -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 02:02:24 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 22:02:24 -0400 Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: References: <499123.25771.qm@web51808.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Fabio FZero wrote: > Any options with wireless-n? I'm also interested, but since all > computers at home support N, might as well get something a bit better. Yes, some of the Linksys 802.11n routers can be made to run OpenWRT, have a look here as a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRT150N Colin. > - FZ > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 20:07, Salman Ahmed wrote: >> ASUS WL-520GU > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 03:04:56 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 23:04:56 -0400 Subject: The Hand Eye Society... Message-ID: I was out at last night's "Nuit Blanche" event (for anyone who ignored the news, in summary this was a sunset to sunrise arts event at several locations downtown). One of the stops I made was at the Toronto International Film Festival building where there was a demo by "The Hand Eye Society" (handeyesociety.com) a group that among other things creates new video games in the same style as the classic coin operated games of the 1970's, 80's and 90's. Worth a look at them and/or some of their associated projects like tojam.ca and gamercamp.ca if your at all interested in classic style games... Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 07:06:03 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 03:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Dave Germiquet | Canada Computers is down, can anyone suggest a good cheap router that'll run | Tomato and OpenWRT? The no-brainer, of course, is the WRT54GL. You should be able to do a lot better. It depends on what features you consider valuable: - easy to find locally - well-worn path putting up your chosen firmware - price - 802.11n - multiple bands (2.4G and 5G) - gigabit ethernet - USB ports - lots of RAM and flash for extended firmware capability - decent actual performance (not just great specs) I think (but don't know) that this is a fairly reasonable mix of those features for $55: - Bewawa has free fast delivery within their version of the GTA - I don't know how easy it is to install Tomato or OpenWRT - the price is good for what you get - 802.11n - only one band - gigabit ethernet - USB port - more RAM and flash than wrt54gl - I don't know actual performance You can spend two or three times as much and get a better router. Since the money isn't really a lot in absolute terms, that might be a good idea. The most popular third party firmware is DD-WRT. I prefer OpenWRT because it is more open. I don't hear that much about Tomato. says wr1043nd is supported. See I don't really know what this is about: The fact that it has "Open Source" in its name is interesting. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 10:11:43 2010 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 06:11:43 -0400 Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, I actually bought a few extra Netgear WNR 3500L's that I want to get rid of . They are still sealed in the box. DAVE On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Dave Germiquet wrote: > and some locations to buy it. > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Dave Germiquet > wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> Canada Computers is down, can anyone suggest a good cheap router that'll >> run Tomato and OpenWRT? >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Dave Germiquet >> > > > > -- > > > > Dave Germiquet > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 15:56:10 2010 From: teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 11:56:10 -0400 Subject: OT-GG binary Message-ID: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Personal_Coat_of_Arms_of_Governor_General_of_Canada_David_Lloyd_Johnston.jpg.jpg any ideas? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 16:21:48 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 12:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Off Topic: Governor General's Coat of Arms has a binary stream [was: OT-GG binary] In-Reply-To: <4CA9F91A.8030507-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: teddy mills | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Personal_Coat_of_Arms_of_Governor_General_of_Canada_David_Lloyd_Johnston.jpg.jpg | | any ideas? What's with the .jpg.jpg suffix? The bitstream is: 110010111001001010100100111010011 33 bits long. Unlikely to be a fixed-width character set. Googling shows me that /. covered this: My favourite pair of comments: 110010111001001010100100111010011 is 33 successive digits of pi (in decimal/binary/ternary/etc.). Cunningly, he did not choose the first 33 digits, of course. Neither the 33 last. I can tell because I just checked it. (The first comment is true (tautologically).) Insightful comment: The blazon [archive.gg.ca] (the heraldic technical description) of the arms is what officially defines them, and it doesn't include the particular sequence of digits; it just says "in base a bar wavy Sable inscribed with zeros and ones Or." So even if it means something, that particular sequence is just the artist's interpretation; somebody else who redrew the arms would be entitled to change it. Most likely, it's just what the artist liked visually. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ijaaz-UwkSZrAjFfdkDLQDXwjzI9BPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 16:47:15 2010 From: ijaaz-UwkSZrAjFfdkDLQDXwjzI9BPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Ijaaz A. Ullah) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 12:47:15 -0400 Subject: Off Topic: Governor General's Coat of Arms has a binary stream [was: OT-GG binary] In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 12:21 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: teddy mills > > | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Personal_Coat_of_Arms_of_Governor_General_of_Canada_David_Lloyd_Johnston.jpg.jpg > | > | any ideas? > > What's with the .jpg.jpg suffix? > > The bitstream is: > ?110010111001001010100100111010011 > > 33 bits long. ?Unlikely to be a fixed-width character set. > > Googling shows me that /. covered this: > ? > > My favourite pair of comments: > > ? ?110010111001001010100100111010011 is 33 successive digits of pi (in > ? ?decimal/binary/ternary/etc.). Cunningly, he did not choose the first > ? ?33 digits, of course. > > ? ?Neither the 33 last. I can tell because I just checked it. I saw that earlier today too, I was about to post the same thing here :) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 16:54:21 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 12:54:21 -0400 Subject: Off Topic: Governor General's Coat of Arms has a binary stream [was: OT-GG binary] In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Ijaaz A. Ullah wrote: > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 12:21 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> | From: teddy mills >> >> | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Personal_Coat_of_Arms_of_Governor_General_of_Canada_David_Lloyd_Johnston.jpg.jpg >> | >> | any ideas? >> >> What's with the .jpg.jpg suffix? >> >> The bitstream is: >> ?110010111001001010100100111010011 >> >> 33 bits long. ?Unlikely to be a fixed-width character set. >> >> Googling shows me that /. covered this: >> ? >> >> My favourite pair of comments: >> >> ? ?110010111001001010100100111010011 is 33 successive digits of pi (in >> ? ?decimal/binary/ternary/etc.). Cunningly, he did not choose the first >> ? ?33 digits, of course. >> >> ? ?Neither the 33 last. I can tell because I just checked it. > > I saw that earlier today too, I was about to post the same thing here :) Not sure if this is relevant, but it reminded me of a show I just saw last week, The Story of Maths. I was astounded to learn that binary predates computers by hundreds of years. Binary was 'invented' by mathematicians in India and China, IIRC, about a thousand years ago. -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 17:35:57 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 13:35:57 -0400 Subject: OT-GG binary In-Reply-To: <4CA9F91A.8030507-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:56 AM, teddy mills wrote: > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Personal_Coat_of_Arms_of_Governor_General_of_Canada_David_Lloyd_Johnston.jpg.jpg > > any ideas? First a little bit of background for those on this list who don't live in Canada or are new to Canada... The Governor General acts as the Queen's representative in Canada, a very largely ceremonial job. No bill can become law without the signature of the Queen or Governor General, but the Governor General is required to sign any bill passed by Parliament. On October 1st David Lloyd Johnson became the new Governor General, replacing Micha?lle Jean (who served as Governor General for 5 years). As with tradition the new Governor General had a new coat of arms (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms) made for him (see the link above for an image of his coat of arms). Across the bottom of the coat of arms are the digits: 110010111001001010100100111010011 Question is, what does the above mean, if anything? My first impulse was to chop the above into 8 digit blocks ... problem, there are 33 digits so the above can not be evenly broken into 8 digit blocks. If we assume the above is 4 x 8 digit blocks followed by a 1 we have: CB 92 A4 E9 1 In ASCII that is E'$e1, which is meaningless to me. For the old school IBM mainframe programmers the above is also meaningless in EBCDIC (some of the above codes point to non-existent/undefined codes). Taking the flip side, assuming a 1 followed by 4 x 8 digit blocks we have: 1 4B 25 49 D3 In ASCII that is 1K%1O, which is also meaningless to me. The above is also meaningless in EBSDIC. As a decimal (base 10 number) the above is 6830770643 a number that doesn't have any special significance that I am aware of. >From 1943 to 1945 Canadian nickels had a Morse code message ("We Win When We Work Willingly") around the edge of every nickel (coincollecting.a-z-series.com/canada-victory-nickel-of-1943-1945-and-its-story) . So, is the above Morse? Well, Morse is a binary code, but one that doesn't have fixed length characters, so the above could be broken down MANY ways, more than I am willing to spend the time to work through... So, the digits may have been chosen because they "look good"... Or, as Mr. Johnson is a former University of Waterloo President (a university with a first rate computer science department) there may be a well hidden meaning in the digits. All I can say after a fairly quick look is that there is no obvious meaning to the digits chosen... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 19:25:56 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 15:25:56 -0400 Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101004192556.GY8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 04, 2010 at 03:06:03AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Dave Germiquet > > | Canada Computers is down, can anyone suggest a good cheap router that'll run > | Tomato and OpenWRT? > > The no-brainer, of course, is the WRT54GL. Which of course is stuck on 2.4 kernel, limited ram, limited flash, etc. > You should be able to do a lot better. It depends on what features > you consider valuable: > > - easy to find locally > > - well-worn path putting up your chosen firmware > > - price > > - 802.11n > > - multiple bands (2.4G and 5G) > > - gigabit ethernet > > - USB ports > > - lots of RAM and flash for extended firmware capability > > - decent actual performance (not just great specs) > > > I think (but don't know) that this is a fairly reasonable mix of those > features for $55: > > - Bewawa has free fast delivery within their version of the GTA > - I don't know how easy it is to install Tomato or OpenWRT > - the price is good for what you get > - 802.11n > - only one band > - gigabit ethernet > - USB port > - more RAM and flash than wrt54gl > - I don't know actual performance > > You can spend two or three times as much and get a better router. > Since the money isn't really a lot in absolute terms, that might be a > good idea. > > The most popular third party firmware is DD-WRT. I prefer OpenWRT > because it is more open. I don't hear that much about Tomato. > > says wr1043nd is > supported. See > > > > > I don't really know what this is about: > > The fact that it has "Open Source" in its name is interesting. Certainly the router I use does much better, but I wouldn't call it cheap. The D-Link DIR-615 is currently $50 at 'the source' on sale, and at least according to this page https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?id=18314 is working in openwrt's trunk. Since it is Atheros based, the support is quite good, the CPU is apparently a 400MHz MIPS, and it has 32MB ram and 4MB flash. This is the rev C1 specifically. Dlink nicely labels the revision on the box in my experience, so it is quite easy to make sure you get the right thing. Older revisions are totally different and of no interest to openwrt users. The DIR-615 has 802.11bgn so at least that is fairly modern, as far as a single band wifi router is concerned. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 19:29:39 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 15:29:39 -0400 Subject: getting recent drivers/kernel with Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101004192939.GZ8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 03, 2010 at 01:03:00PM -0400, Dave Mason wrote: > I have Debian 5.0.6 on Linux kernel 2.6.26-2-686. I would like to get > the newer drivers without moving to an unstable versoin > > Is there a way to do that easily? (That being one of the main putative > attractions of Debian after all.) backports (Now an official debian component) has 2.6.32 kernels for stable available. Check backports.debian.org for information. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 20:15:31 2010 From: daniel-HRJVlgn2G/y5aS82P/H3Zg at public.gmane.org (Daniel Wayne Armstrong) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:15:31 -0400 Subject: anyone can suggest a good cheap router In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Dave Germiquet wrote: > Which is better the ASUS WL-520GU or the Linksys 54or the Linksys > WRT54GL.... I have the WL-520GU running OpenWRT. If you want to experiment with alternative firmwares one of the nice things about this router is they are practically "unbrickable". If you completely trash a firmware install and render the router unusable... I have always been able to back up and try again and get it working again. Not so with the WRT54GL. -- ?? ((@)) (\__/) -- Daniel (=.= ) -- http://circuidipity.com (")_(") -- http://identi.ca/dwa -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marthter-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 21:38:45 2010 From: marthter-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (marthter) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 17:38:45 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> On 10-10-04 01:35 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:56 AM, teddy mills wrote: > >> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Personal_Coat_of_Arms_of_Governor_General_of_Canada_David_Lloyd_Johnston.jpg.jpg >> >> any ideas? >> > First a little bit of background for those on this list who don't live > in Canada or are new to Canada... The Governor General acts as the > Queen's representative in Canada, a very largely ceremonial job. No > bill can become law without the signature of the Queen or Governor > General, but the Governor General is required to sign any bill passed > by Parliament. > > On October 1st David Lloyd Johnson became the new Governor General, > replacing Micha?lle Jean (who served as Governor General for 5 years). > As with tradition the new Governor General had a new coat of arms > (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms) made for him (see the link above > for an image of his coat of arms). Across the bottom of the coat of > arms are the digits: > > 110010111001001010100100111010011 > > Question is, what does the above mean, if anything? My first impulse > was to chop the above into 8 digit blocks ... problem, there are 33 > digits so the above can not be evenly broken into 8 digit blocks. If > we assume the above is 4 x 8 digit blocks followed by a 1 we have: > > CB 92 A4 E9 1 > > In ASCII that is E'$e1, which is meaningless to me. For the old school > IBM mainframe programmers the above is also meaningless in EBCDIC > (some of the above codes point to non-existent/undefined codes). > Taking the flip side, assuming a 1 followed by 4 x 8 digit blocks we > have: > > 1 4B 25 49 D3 > > In ASCII that is 1K%1O, which is also meaningless to me. The above is > also meaningless in EBSDIC. As a decimal (base 10 number) the above is > 6830770643 a number that doesn't have any special significance that I > am aware of. > > > From 1943 to 1945 Canadian nickels had a Morse code message ("We Win > When We Work Willingly") around the edge of every nickel > (coincollecting.a-z-series.com/canada-victory-nickel-of-1943-1945-and-its-story) > . So, is the above Morse? Well, Morse is a binary code, but one that > doesn't have fixed length characters, so the above could be broken > down MANY ways, more than I am willing to spend the time to work > through... > > So, the digits may have been chosen because they "look good"... Or, as > Mr. Johnson is a former University of Waterloo President (a university > with a first rate computer science department) there may be a well > hidden meaning in the digits. All I can say after a fairly quick look > is that there is no obvious meaning to the digits chosen... > First off, that is a pretty rockin coat of arms if you ask me. I liked the little disembodied winged feet, the candle in the top centre (enlightenment?), and of course the red narwhal/horse hybrids with their lashing tongues and fuzzy beards... definitely not your my-little-pony(tm) versions of the unicorn. My first observation on the ones and zeros was just that they were a palindrome, which probably most supports the "just because it looks good" theory. Either that or it is the key clue to the location of Samuel de Champlain's buried treasure. I love how nobody here even mentioned the two more obvious attempts at messages embedded in the coat... the gold writing around the circle (largely blocked by the horses' front legs) or the latin message just above the digits, and the question of the ones and zeros was simply implied by the original poster's "any ideas?" Also I don't think horses have cloven hooves so that's a little weird, or perhaps that's just due to a mis-informed artist, or I guess I could be jumping to conclusions about unicorn feet. Oh well, cool tradition anyway. Martin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 21:51:27 2010 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 17:51:27 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: <4CAA4965.8010408-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 5:38 PM, marthter wrote: ... > My first observation on the ones and zeros was just that they were a > palindrome, which probably most supports the "just because it looks good" > theory. ?Either that or it is the key clue to the location of Samuel de > Champlain's buried treasure. the best explanation I've heard is that it's a prime number which when represented in binary is a palindrome. (I found that on Slashdot) -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 22:16:19 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 18:16:19 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <20101004221619.GA8580@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 04, 2010 at 05:51:27PM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > the best explanation I've heard is that it's a prime number which when > represented in binary is a palindrome. > > (I found that on Slashdot) Yeah that is certainly the best I have seen too. A 33 digit binary palindromic prime is pretty neat. Now what does the text that is partially covered by the horses say? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 22:33:45 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 18:33:45 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Mike Kallies wrote: > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 5:38 PM, marthter wrote: > ... >> My first observation on the ones and zeros was just that they were a >> palindrome, which probably most supports the "just because it looks good" >> theory. ?Either that or it is the key clue to the location of Samuel de >> Champlain's buried treasure. > > the best explanation I've heard is that it's a prime number which when > represented in binary is a palindrome. > > (I found that on Slashdot) cbbrowne at cbbrowne [06:09:21] [~/Lisp] [master *] -> % clisp [1]> #B110010111001001010100100111010011 6830770643 [2]> Bye. cbbrowne at cbbrowne [06:09:24] [~/Lisp] [master *] -> % matho-primes 6830770640 6830770670 6830770643 6830770649 6830770657 6830770669 That seems to confirm that the value is a prime number, and I do not imagine they picked a palindromic prime number "just because it looks good." They aren't *that* common. I rather think that someone gave a call over to the Faculty of Mathematics to find a "cool number" to put into the coat of arms. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 23:00:06 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 19:00:06 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: <4CAA4965.8010408-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAA5C76.2030303@rogers.com> marthter wrote: > I guess I could be jumping to conclusions about unicorn feet There was something on the CBC news tonight about a unicorn in the Don Valley. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 4 23:50:24 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 19:50:24 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: <4CAA4965.8010408-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 5:38 PM, marthter wrote: > On 10-10-04 01:35 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:56 AM, teddy mills ?wrote: >>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Personal_Coat_of_Arms_of_Governor_General_of_Canada_David_Lloyd_Johnston.jpg.jpg >>> >>> any ideas? >>> >> >> First a little bit of background for those on this list who don't live >> in Canada or are new to Canada... The Governor General acts as the >> Queen's representative in Canada, a very largely ceremonial job. No >> bill can become law without the signature of the Queen or Governor >> General, but the Governor General is required to sign any bill passed >> by Parliament. >> >> On October 1st David Lloyd Johnson became the new Governor General, >> replacing Micha?lle Jean (who served as Governor General for 5 years). >> As with tradition the new Governor General had a new coat of arms >> (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms) made for him (see the link above >> for an image of his coat of arms). Across the bottom of the coat of >> arms are the digits: >> >> 110010111001001010100100111010011 >> >> Question is, what does the above mean, if anything? My first impulse >> was to chop the above into 8 digit blocks ... problem, there are 33 >> digits so the above can not be evenly broken into 8 digit blocks. If >> we assume the above is 4 x ?8 digit blocks followed by a 1 we have: >> >> CB 92 A4 E9 1 >> >> In ASCII that is E'$e1, which is meaningless to me. For the old school >> IBM mainframe programmers the above is also meaningless in EBCDIC >> (some of the above codes point to non-existent/undefined codes). >> Taking the flip side, assuming a 1 followed by 4 x 8 digit blocks we >> have: >> >> 1 4B 25 49 D3 >> >> In ASCII that is 1K%1O, which is also meaningless to me. The above is >> also meaningless in EBSDIC. As a decimal (base 10 number) the above is >> 6830770643 a number that doesn't have any special significance that I >> am aware of. >> >> > From 1943 to 1945 Canadian nickels had a Morse code message ("We Win >> When We Work Willingly") around the edge of every nickel >> >> (coincollecting.a-z-series.com/canada-victory-nickel-of-1943-1945-and-its-story) >> . So, is the above Morse? Well, Morse is a binary code, but one that >> doesn't have fixed length characters, so the above could be broken >> down MANY ways, more than I am willing to spend the time to work >> through... >> >> So, the digits may have been chosen because they "look good"... Or, as >> Mr. Johnson is a former University of Waterloo President (a university >> with a first rate computer science department) there may be a well >> hidden meaning in the digits. All I can say after a fairly quick look >> is that there is no obvious meaning to the digits chosen... >> > > First off, that is a pretty rockin coat of arms if you ask me. ?I liked the > little disembodied winged feet, the candle in the top centre > (enlightenment?), and of course the red narwhal/horse hybrids with their > lashing tongues and fuzzy beards... definitely not your my-little-pony(tm) > versions of the unicorn. > > My first observation on the ones and zeros was just that they were a > palindrome, which probably most supports the "just because it looks good" > theory. ?Either that or it is the key clue to the location of Samuel de > Champlain's buried treasure. > > I love how nobody here even mentioned the two more obvious attempts at > messages embedded in the coat... ?the gold writing around the circle > (largely blocked by the horses' front legs) or the latin message just above > the digits, and the question of the ones and zeros was simply implied by the > original poster's "any ideas?" The two Latin inscriptions are easy. The gold writing around the circle has shown up in some past Governor General coat of arms, it is DESIDERANTES MELIOREM PATRIAM, meaning ?They desire a better country?, the motto of the Order of Canada (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Canada , an award for outstanding public service) which Mr. Johnson won in 1994 (you can see a small drawing of the Order of Canada medal just above the words "CONTEMPLARE MELIORA"). The other inscription, CONTEMPLARE MELIORA, means ?To envisage better things?. Only the digits in the coat of arms are not fairly clear as to meaning... > Also I don't think horses have cloven hooves so that's a little weird, or > perhaps that's just due to a mis-informed artist, or I guess I could be > jumping to conclusions about unicorn feet. > > Oh well, cool tradition anyway. > > Martin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 5 01:46:41 2010 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 21:46:41 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: <4CAA4965.8010408-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAA8381.3090703@the-wire.com> On 10-10-04 05:38 PM, marthter wrote: > First off, that is a pretty rockin coat of arms if you ask me. I liked > the little disembodied winged feet, the candle in the top centre > (enlightenment?), and of course the red narwhal/horse hybrids with their > lashing tongues and fuzzy beards... definitely not your > my-little-pony(tm) versions of the unicorn. Yeah. Genuine heraldic unicorns are definitely major league ... but they also have astrolabes (or something.) Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 5 02:03:37 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 22:03:37 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: <4CAA8381.3090703-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> <4CAA8381.3090703@the-wire.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > On 10-10-04 05:38 PM, marthter wrote: > >> First off, that is a pretty rockin coat of arms if you ask me. I liked >> the little disembodied winged feet, the candle in the top centre >> (enlightenment?), and of course the red narwhal/horse hybrids with their >> lashing tongues and fuzzy beards... definitely not your >> my-little-pony(tm) versions of the unicorn. > > Yeah. ?Genuine heraldic unicorns are definitely major league ... but they > also have astrolabes (or something.) The official summary (which doesn't go into why that particular number in the coat of arms) can be seen here: www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=13889 Colin > ? ? ? ?Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 5 10:10:08 2010 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 10:10:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Zyxel Linux firmware sources References: Message-ID: Christopher Browne writes: > Well, and anything from /sbin/init onwards is NOT "linked to the > kernel," and could very well be implemented independently by the > vendor. That may well be the case, and probably is so for large swaths of code in the WiFi area, but that does not cover the base system and user if. Both are clearly busybox (crippled) and (tiny?)libc based. I strongly doubt manufacturers choose Linux kernels so they can build their effort duplications on 'bare metal' kernel syscalls, they choose it because the pre-existing codebase already does 90% of what they need. There is a stark difference between adding something to a 1 million LOC system and writing it from scratch, in man-haours and testing hours needed. I don't have a problem with people running their proprietary binaries on top of a Linux kernel and standard system tools but I do have one when the kernel and the standard system tools are crippled and mis- represented. In this case there were several bugs I had to work around and could not. RMS was not joking in his GPL when he wrote about "the freedom to change and improve", and let's not forget the role a certain buggy printer driver played in the genesis of the GPL. -- Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 5 10:23:52 2010 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 10:23:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Off Topic: Governor General's Coat of Arms has a binary stream [was: OT-GG binary] References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thomas Milne writes: > predates computers by hundreds of years. Binary was 'invented' by > mathematicians in India and China, IIRC, about a thousand years ago. Well the Romans used biquinal abacii. And they were not new when they started using them apparently. Biquinal means base-2-and-base-5 which is actually clever, you only have one free hand to check things off on fingers while holding an abacus in the other. Of course 2 came from having 2 hands in total (used 1 at a time). Later 2*5 became our current base 10. Apparently biquinal is tightly connected to Roman numbers, the numbers from 1 to 10 clearly reflect this, including the built-in shorthand notation (IIX = 8 instead of VIII etc). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_abacus According to this calculus may have meant 'playing with pebbles' to someone way back then... -- Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 5 17:27:28 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:27:28 -0400 Subject: Off Topic: Governor General's Coat of Arms has a binary stream [was: OT-GG binary] In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101005172728.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 10:23:52AM +0000, Peter wrote: > Well the Romans used biquinal abacii. And they were not new when they started > using them apparently. Biquinal means base-2-and-base-5 which is actually > clever, you only have one free hand to check things off on fingers while holding > an abacus in the other. Of course 2 came from having 2 hands in total (used 1 at > a time). Later 2*5 became our current base 10. Apparently biquinal is tightly > connected to Roman numbers, the numbers from 1 to 10 clearly reflect this, > including the built-in shorthand notation (IIX = 8 instead of VIII etc). I have never seen IIX although it has apparently been seen in rare cases. It is shorter, but not by much. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_abacus > > According to this calculus may have meant 'playing with pebbles' to someone way > back then... -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From maureen-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 5 20:42:21 2010 From: maureen-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Maureen Thornton) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:42:21 -0400 Subject: Off Topic: Governor General's Coat of Arms has a binary stream [was: OT-GG binary] In-Reply-To: <20101005172728.GA12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <20101005172728.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1286311341.14930.4.camel@bliss.ss.org> Want the answer from the "horses mouth!"? Looking at the explanation of the symbolism on the website, there is the statement ?The wavy band inscribed with zeros and ones represents a flow of information, digital communication and modern media.? We are surprised by the speculations that are appearing about the significance of the set of digits. However, there is nothing significant about the construction of the digits except to say that the symmetry of digits presents a better appearance. Sincerely Yours, Darrel E. Kennedy Assiniboine Herald / H?raut Assiniboine The Canadian Heraldic Authority / L'Autorit? h?raldique du Canada Rideau Hall 1 Sussex Drive / 1, promenade Sussex Ottawa, ON. / Ottawa (Ontario). K1A 0A1 Phone: (613) 998-5481 / (800) 465-6890 Fax: (613) 990-5818 Government of Canada / Gouvernement du Canada www.gg.ca (showing our grants of arms at http://archive.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/main.asp?lang=e Email after 15 Sep 2010: darrel.kennedy-2fiWaKc/skw at public.gmane.org Well there you is! On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 13:27 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 10:23:52AM +0000, Peter wrote: > > Well the Romans used biquinal abacii. And they were not new when they started > > using them apparently. Biquinal means base-2-and-base-5 which is actually > > clever, you only have one free hand to check things off on fingers while holding > > an abacus in the other. Of course 2 came from having 2 hands in total (used 1 at > > a time). Later 2*5 became our current base 10. Apparently biquinal is tightly > > connected to Roman numbers, the numbers from 1 to 10 clearly reflect this, > > including the built-in shorthand notation (IIX = 8 instead of VIII etc). > > I have never seen IIX although it has apparently been seen in rare cases. > It is shorter, but not by much. > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_abacus > > > > According to this calculus may have meant 'playing with pebbles' to someone way > > back then... > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 5 22:35:52 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:35:52 -0400 Subject: Off Topic: Governor General's Coat of Arms has a binary stream [was: OT-GG binary] In-Reply-To: <1286311341.14930.4.camel-Cc8bTzyuDCFg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <20101005172728.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1286311341.14930.4.camel@bliss.ss.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Maureen Thornton wrote: > Want the answer from the "horses mouth!"? > Looking at the explanation of the symbolism on the website, there is the > statement ?The wavy band inscribed with zeros and ones represents a flow > of information, digital communication and modern media.? > > We are surprised by the speculations that are appearing about the > significance of the set of digits. However, there is nothing significant > about the construction of the digits except to say that the symmetry of > digits presents a better appearance. Okay, as I thought quite possible at the start, the digits were picked because they looked good, fair enough... Still, the reaction of the geek community should really NOT surprise these folks, drop any sort sort of a puzzle in front of many geeks and they will attack it until they they have some sort of solution (years ago when I got a Rubik's Cube, my solution was to figure out how to disassemble the puzzle and then re-assemble it correctly, none of that spinning sides around to get things right :-) ). So, a number coded into a symbol and "what is this?" "how does it work?" are normal geek reactions. Colin. > Sincerely Yours, > Darrel E. Kennedy > Assiniboine Herald / H?raut Assiniboine > The Canadian Heraldic Authority / L'Autorit? h?raldique du Canada > Rideau Hall > 1 Sussex Drive / 1, promenade Sussex > Ottawa, ON. / Ottawa (Ontario). K1A 0A1 > > Phone: (613) 998-5481 / (800) 465-6890 > Fax: (613) 990-5818 > Government of Canada / Gouvernement du Canada > www.gg.ca ?(showing our grants of arms at > http://archive.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/main.asp?lang=e > Email after 15 Sep 2010: darrel.kennedy-2fiWaKc/skw at public.gmane.org > > Well there you is! > > > > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 13:27 -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 10:23:52AM +0000, Peter wrote: >> > Well the Romans used biquinal abacii. And they were not new when they started >> > using them apparently. Biquinal means base-2-and-base-5 which is actually >> > clever, you only have one free hand to check things off on fingers while holding >> > an abacus in the other. Of course 2 came from having 2 hands in total (used 1 at >> > a time). Later 2*5 became our current base 10. Apparently biquinal is tightly >> > connected to Roman numbers, the numbers from 1 to 10 clearly reflect this, >> > including the built-in shorthand notation (IIX = 8 instead of VIII etc). >> >> I have never seen IIX although it has apparently been seen in rare cases. >> It is shorter, but not by much. >> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_abacus >> > >> > According to this calculus may have meant 'playing with pebbles' to someone way >> > back then... >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 5 23:33:15 2010 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 19:33:15 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <4CABB5BB.6000509@the-wire.com> On 10-10-04 06:33 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > That seems to confirm that the value is a prime number, and I do not > imagine they picked a palindromic prime number "just because it looks > good." They aren't *that* common. There seem to be 2972 33-bit palindromic primes. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ijaaz-UwkSZrAjFfdkDLQDXwjzI9BPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 00:33:42 2010 From: ijaaz-UwkSZrAjFfdkDLQDXwjzI9BPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Ijaaz A. Ullah) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:33:42 -0400 Subject: Off Topic: Governor General's Coat of Arms has a binary stream [was: OT-GG binary] In-Reply-To: <1286311341.14930.4.camel-Cc8bTzyuDCFg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <20101005172728.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1286311341.14930.4.camel@bliss.ss.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Maureen Thornton wrote: > Want the answer from the "horses mouth!"? > Looking at the explanation of the symbolism on the website, there is the > statement ?The wavy band inscribed with zeros and ones represents a flow > of information, digital communication and modern media.? > > We are surprised by the speculations that are appearing about the > significance of the set of digits. However, there is nothing significant > about the construction of the digits except to say that the symmetry of > digits presents a better appearance. That's just what they *want* you to believe. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 00:58:15 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:58:15 -0400 Subject: Off Topic: Governor General's Coat of Arms has a binary stream [was: OT-GG binary] In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <20101005172728.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1286311341.14930.4.camel@bliss.ss.org> Message-ID: <4CABC9A7.4020402@rogers.com> Colin McGregor wrote: > Okay, as I thought quite possible at the start, the digits were picked > because they looked good, fair enough... > Perhaps there's a hidden message, if you play it backwards. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 03:45:11 2010 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 23:45:11 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 05:20:04PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote > So, questions to be tossed around, which ISPs support IPv6, as in, if > I wanted to set-up an IPv6 tunnel over IPv4 now, who does that? In > terms of hardware, I have an OLD Linksys WRT54G (one of the ones that > supports Linux) router, which I know can be converted to firmware that > supports IPv6 (see http://openwrt.org/) Teksavvy users see... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23849317-IPv6-beta I don't know if they're still accepting new beta testers. Interesting item... > First of all, the service is provided over native PPP, there is no > tunneling involved or 6to4 like most other providers. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 03:58:57 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 23:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: <4CABB5BB.6000509-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> <4CABB5BB.6000509@the-wire.com> Message-ID: | From: Mel Wilson | There seem to be 2972 33-bit palindromic primes. Out of how many 33-bit palindromes? Top and bottom bit are 1. That leaves 31 bits to be determined. The top-but-1 16 bit can be anything This determines the remaining 15 bits. So there are 64K 33-bit palindromes. So 4.5% are primes. The density of primes around N is about 1 / ln(N). 2^16 / ln(2^33.5) == 2822.34... Not too far off 2972. But note: all primes in this area are odd, and so are palindromes so the density in palindromes of 33 bits ought to be double. So something seems wrong. I wrote two variants of a program to count 33-bit binary palindromic primes. They both count 5572. They both might be buggy. Mel: were did you get your number? Did I make a mistake? ================ counting-palindromes.c ================ /* gcc -g -Wall counting-palindromes.c -lgmp */ #include #include int main() { unsigned long i; int pal_count = 0; int pri_count = 0; for (i = 0; i < 1ul<<16; i++) { unsigned long ri = i; mpz_t p; ri = ((ri & 0x00FF)<<8) | ((ri >> 8) & 0x00FF); ri = ((ri & 0x0F0F)<<4) | ((ri >> 4) & 0x0F0F); ri = ((ri & 0x3333)<<2) | ((ri >> 2) & 0x3333); ri = ((ri & 0x5555)<<1) | ((ri >> 1) & 0x5555); mpz_init_set_ui(p, (1ul << 32) | 1ul | (i << 1) | (ri << 16)); pal_count++; pri_count += mpz_probab_prime_p(p, 10); mpz_clear(p); } printf("33-bit palindromes: %d\nprimes %d\n", pal_count, pri_count); return 0; } ================ counting-palindromes-2.c ================ /* gcc -g -Wall counting-palindromes-2.c -lgmp */ #include #include int main() { unsigned long i; int pal_count = 0; int pri_count = 0; for (i = 1ul<<16; i < 1ul<<17; i++) { mpz_t p; unsigned long pal = i; unsigned long x; for (x = i>>1; x != 0; x >>= 1) { pal = (pal << 1) | (x & 1); } mpz_init_set_ui(p, pal); pal_count++; pri_count += mpz_probab_prime_p(p, 10); mpz_clear(p); } printf("33-bit palindromes: %d\nprimes %d\n", pal_count, pri_count); return 0; } ================ end ================ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 06:27:02 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 02:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> <4CABB5BB.6000509@the-wire.com> Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | I wrote two variants of a program to count 33-bit binary palindromic | primes. They both count 5572. They both might be buggy. I should have mentioned that this code only works on C implementations where unsigned long can hold 33-bit numbers (eg. AMD64, but not i386). I could have used unsigned long long as the type but then mpz_init_set_ui would have been unhappy. There is a simple work-around. Since 32-bit numbers are representable in unsigned long, and the 33rd bit is always one in a call to mpz_init_set_ui, it is pretty simple to code around the limitation of 32 bit unsigned long. So I saved a little bit of code at the expense of portability. Bad me. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 10:29:15 2010 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 06:29:15 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> <4CABB5BB.6000509@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <4CAC4F7B.9050401@the-wire.com> On 10-10-05 11:58 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Mel Wilson > > | There seem to be 2972 33-bit palindromic primes. > > Out of how many 33-bit palindromes? > > Top and bottom bit are 1. > That leaves 31 bits to be determined. > The top-but-1 16 bit can be anything > This determines the remaining 15 bits. > So there are 64K 33-bit palindromes. > > So 4.5% are primes. > > The density of primes around N is about 1 / ln(N). > > 2^16 / ln(2^33.5) == 2822.34... > > Not too far off 2972. > > But note: all primes in this area are odd, and so are palindromes so > the density in palindromes of 33 bits ought to be double. So > something seems wrong. > > I wrote two variants of a program to count 33-bit binary palindromic > primes. They both count 5572. They both might be buggy. > > Mel: were did you get your number? > > Did I make a mistake? Ah my! I got my number from a buggy program that ignored palindromes with '0' in the middle. According to my program after corrections, your result is spot on. Sorry for the confusion. Mel. P.S. I appreciate the herald's point now. Out of the palindromic primes, the chosen bit string is one of the nicest-looking ones. MPW # primetest.py #======================= import random def radexp2 (n): q, k = n, 0 while not q & 1: k += 1 q /= 2 return q, k def prime_test (n): '''Knuth's Algorithm P''' x = random.randint (1, n) q, k = radexp2 (n-1) y = pow (x, q, n) for j in xrange (k): if (j == 0 and y == 1) or (y == n-1): return True if j > 0 and y == 1: return False if j >= k: return False y = pow (y, 2, n) return False def is_prime (n, count=25): for times in xrange (count): if not prime_test (n): return False return True # palprimes_33.py #======================= import primetest def bitstr (n): '''Represent a binary number as a string of '1' and '0'.''' s = [] while n: n, r = divmod (n, 2) s.append (str (r)) return ''.join (s[::-1]) for n in xrange (0x10001, 0x20000, 2): s = bitstr (n) t = s[-1:0:-1] + s # make a palindrome m = int (t, 2) if primetest.is_prime (m): print m, t, len (t) t = t[:16] + '0' + t[17:] # same again with middle '0' m = int (t, 2) if primetest.is_prime (m): print m, t, len (t) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 12:16:07 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 08:16:07 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006034511.GA23883-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> Walter Dnes wrote: > Teksavvy users see... > http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23849317-IPv6-beta I don't know if > they're still accepting new beta testers. Interesting item... > Hmmm... "First of all, the service is provided over native PPP, there is no tunneling involved or 6to4 like most other providers." That doesn't make sense. PPP is a method of carrying almost any type of packet over some serial medium. In ADSL a form of it called PPPoE is used to carry IP via PPP over an ethernet connection. So, unless they're running some serial protocol directly over the wires, they are in fact using tunnelling, which is no different than OpenVPN (ignoring encryption) in UDP packets or IPv6 6in4 tunnelling with IP protocol 41. In 6in4 tunnelling, the only difference from an IPv6 packet is the 20 byte IPv4 tacked on the front of it. When used to transport IPv6, PPP is tunnelling. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 12:54:02 2010 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 08:54:02 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAC6887.9010509-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 6 October 2010 08:16, James Knott wrote: > "First of all, the service is provided over native PPP, there is no > tunneling involved or 6to4 like most other providers." > > That doesn't make sense. [...] They probably mean that they negotiate true IPV6 over PPP (actually PPPoE) instead of negotiating IPV4 over PPP and then using 6to4 or some other tunneling method over IPV4. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 14:29:18 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:29:18 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> Scott Allen wrote: > On 6 October 2010 08:16, James Knott wrote: > >> "First of all, the service is provided over native PPP, there is no >> tunneling involved or 6to4 like most other providers." >> >> That doesn't make sense. [...] >> > They probably mean that they negotiate true IPV6 over PPP (actually > PPPoE) instead of negotiating IPV4 over PPP and then using 6to4 or > some other tunneling method over IPV4. > That's what I thought, but it's still tunnelling IPv6 > PPP > ethernet vs IPv6 > ethernet. Of course IPv4 does the same, IPv4 > PPP > ethernet. From a functional view, there's no difference between encapsulating IPv6 in PPPoE vs IPv6 in IP protocol 41. However, since they're modifying a router, which adds an additional step, they now have IPv6 > PPP, which is then carried by IPv4 PPPoE to Teksavyy. This is necessary because they are not modifying the ADSL modem. There is a similar router mod for the tunnel broker I use. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 14:49:10 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:49:10 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: <4CABB5BB.6000509-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> <4CABB5BB.6000509@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <20101006144910.GB12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 07:33:15PM -0400, Mel Wilson wrote: > On 10-10-04 06:33 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > >> That seems to confirm that the value is a prime number, and I do not >> imagine they picked a palindromic prime number "just because it looks >> good." They aren't *that* common. > > There seem to be 2972 33-bit palindromic primes. Out of 4 billion 33-bit numbers. Now how many 33-bit numbers are palindromic? The first digit has to be a one, then pick a random 16bits to follow, and the last 16 bits are determined by the first 16 bits, so 65536 of them. So it seems that if they picked a 33-bit palindrome, they had a 2972/65536 change to get a prime one. 5% or so is a pretty good chance of doing that by accident. Of course wanting something with a fairly even distribution of 0s and 1s probably changes the probability as well. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 14:52:45 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:52:45 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAC6887.9010509-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006145245.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 08:16:07AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Hmmm... > > "First of all, the service is provided over native PPP, there is no > tunneling involved or 6to4 like most other providers." > > That doesn't make sense. PPP is a method of carrying almost any type of > packet over some serial medium. In ADSL a form of it called PPPoE is > used to carry IP via PPP over an ethernet connection. So, unless > they're running some serial protocol directly over the wires, they are > in fact using tunnelling, which is no different than OpenVPN (ignoring > encryption) in UDP packets or IPv6 6in4 tunnelling with IP protocol 41. > In 6in4 tunnelling, the only difference from an IPv6 packet is the 20 > byte IPv4 tacked on the front of it. > > When used to transport IPv6, PPP is tunnelling. There is a difference between running IPv6 over IPv4 over PPP versus IPv6 over PPP. It does save 20 bytes per packet after all, which is not irrelevant. If you consider tunnel to mean tunner over IP, then they are right. Most people don't consider ppp to be a tunnel since it is point to point over a wire. Tunnels tend to be between end points that are not directly connected. Hence the idea of tunneling through a network. PPP doesn't do that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 14:54:49 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:54:49 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAC87BE.2090403-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 10:29:18AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > That's what I thought, but it's still tunnelling IPv6 > PPP > ethernet > vs IPv6 > ethernet. Of course IPv4 does the same, IPv4 > PPP > > ethernet. From a functional view, there's no difference between > encapsulating IPv6 in PPPoE vs IPv6 in IP protocol 41. However, since > they're modifying a router, which adds an additional step, they now have > IPv6 > PPP, which is then carried by IPv4 PPPoE to Teksavyy. This is > necessary because they are not modifying the ADSL modem. There is a > similar router mod for the tunnel broker I use. PPPoE does NOT run on IPv4. It runs on raw ethernet. The ADSL modem knows nothing about IP. It doesn't care. It just moves ethernet frames. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 14:55:04 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAC87BE.2090403-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | IPv6 > PPP, which is then carried by IPv4 PPPoE to Teksavyy. This is | necessary because they are not modifying the ADSL modem. I assume that you mean "because they are not modifying the router (which in many cases is combined with the ADSL modem)". In my setup, PPPoE is not implemented in the modem so the modem would not need to be modified. Perhaps you meant that something in the Bell-controlled part of the path would need to be changed. In theory PPPoE implementations ought to be agnostic about IPv6 vs. IPv4 since PPP is Link Layer and IPv4 and IPv6 are Internet Layer. But that might not be the case (I'm too lazy to look). Look at the diagrams in -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 15:06:16 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:06:16 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006145449.GD12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > PPPoE does NOT run on IPv4. It runs on raw ethernet. I didn't say it did. I said IPv4 PPPoE, in that the modems are configured to handle IPv4 only. Unless I misread that article, they are modifying a WRT router to produce IPv6 over PPP. Now, how does that IPv6 over PPP get to the ISP? It connects to the ADSL modem (the same would work over cable modem) via IPv4, which then uses PPPoE to get to the ISP. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 15:13:02 2010 From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:13:02 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: <20101006144910.GB12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> <4CABB5BB.6000509@the-wire.com> <20101006144910.GB12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > So it seems that if they picked a 33-bit palindrome, they had a 2972/65536 > change to get a prime one. ?5% or so is a pretty good chance of doing > that by accident. > I don't know whether to be amused by the likelihood that they stumbled upon a binary palindromic prime number based purely on visual aesthetics, or to be disappointed that a techie like the new G.G. would leave such a detail to chance ;-) Cheers, Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 15:18:56 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:18:56 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAC9068.2070000-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 11:06:16AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> PPPoE does NOT run on IPv4. It runs on raw ethernet. > I didn't say it did. I said IPv4 PPPoE, in that the modems are > configured to handle IPv4 only. Unless I misread that article, they are > modifying a WRT router to produce IPv6 over PPP. Now, how does that > IPv6 over PPP get to the ISP? It connects to the ADSL modem (the same > would work over cable modem) via IPv4, which then uses PPPoE to get to > the ISP. No it doesn't. It connects to the ADSL modem using ethernet, and the ethernet frames are sent to the ISP. There is no IP of any kind involved in moving PPP frames to the ISP. PPP runs on layer2 frames, not layer3. PPPoE goes from the router to the ISP. Between the router and the ISP it is just ethernet (temporarily transported over ATM over DSL by the ADSL modem). The modem knows nothing about PPP or IP unless it happens to be a router as well. So no, the modem is NOT configured for IPv4 because it doesn't even know what IP is. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 15:19:41 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:19:41 -0400 Subject: OT-Governor General binary In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9F91A.8030507@gmail.com> <4CAA4965.8010408@yahoo.ca> <4CABB5BB.6000509@the-wire.com> <20101006144910.GB12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101006151941.GF12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 11:13:02AM -0400, Mike wrote: > I don't know whether to be amused by the likelihood that they stumbled > upon a binary palindromic prime number based purely on visual > aesthetics, or to be disappointed that a techie like the new G.G. > would leave such a detail to chance ;-) Yeah I certainly thought it was picked on purpose when I saw the report that it is a prime. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 15:28:52 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Canada Computers' downtown location [was: Computer store fire] In-Reply-To: <4C84EC0D.1080001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4C84EC0D.1080001@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 09:26:37 -0400 | The Canada Computers store at College and Bathurst was destroyed by fire. | http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/857192--6-alarm-fire-in-kensington-market?bn=1 According to their web site, they are now at 343 College St. This is the same address as Jumbo Computers -- perhaps Jumbo has disappeared. It is also CC's original address downtown (they moved some years ago). Ah. Jumbo has gone: -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 15:29:33 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:29:33 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006145245.GC12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <20101006145245.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAC95DD.7070605@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > There is a difference between running IPv6 over IPv4 over PPP versus > IPv6 over PPP. > > It does save 20 bytes per packet after all, which is not irrelevant. > PPP adds at least 5 bytes, PPPoE adds 8. 6in4 tunnelling adds 20, for a "savings" of 12 bytes in favour of PPPoE. However, the minimum MTU for IPv6 is 1280 bytes, IIRC. In that context, there's not much of a difference. > If you consider tunnel to mean tunner over IP, then they are right. > Most people don't consider ppp to be a tunnel since it is point to > point over a wire. Tunnels tend to be between end points that are not > directly connected. Hence the idea of tunneling through a network. > PPP doesn't do that. > That is precisely what PPPoE does. It routes your connection to the ISP, independent of the underlying ethernet network, just like tunneling with UDP, IP protocol 41, GRE etc. In each and every one of these, you take the IP data (v4 or v6) and encapsulate it into an added layer. As I mentioned in another note, PPP is used for some serial connection (I've configured it over T1, ISDN, SHDSL and good ol' dial up modem). ADSL normally used PPPoE. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 15:30:30 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:30:30 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CAC9616.2020306@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: James Knott > > | IPv6> PPP, which is then carried by IPv4 PPPoE to Teksavyy. This is > | necessary because they are not modifying the ADSL modem. > > I assume that you mean "because they are not modifying the router > (which in many cases is combined with the ADSL modem)". In my setup, > PPPoE is not implemented in the modem so the modem would not need to > be modified. > > Perhaps you meant that something in the Bell-controlled part of the > path would need to be changed. > > In theory PPPoE implementations ought to be agnostic about IPv6 vs. > IPv4 since PPP is Link Layer and IPv4 and IPv6 are Internet Layer. > But that might not be the case (I'm too lazy to look). > > Look at the diagrams in > > > > If the ADSL modem can be configured so that it provides only ethernet to the router, then you'd wind up with IPv6 over PPPoE, in the same manner as ADSL provides IPv4 over PPPoE. The router mentioned in the article is the Linksys WRT54G, which, last I heard, does not connect directly to a phone line to provide ADSL service. However, some ISPs provide a router that does. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 15:47:52 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:47:52 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAC95DD.7070605-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <20101006145245.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC95DD.7070605@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006154752.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 11:29:33AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > PPP adds at least 5 bytes, PPPoE adds 8. 6in4 tunnelling adds 20, for a > "savings" of 12 bytes in favour of PPPoE. However, the minimum MTU for > IPv6 is 1280 bytes, IIRC. In that context, there's not much of a > difference. 6in4 tunneling adds 20 bytes on top of what IPv4 PPPoE already needed. The 6in4 still runs on top of PPPoE after all, so it is in addition, not instead of. > That is precisely what PPPoE does. It routes your connection to the > ISP, independent of the underlying ethernet network, just like tunneling > with UDP, IP protocol 41, GRE etc. In each and every one of these, you > take the IP data (v4 or v6) and encapsulate it into an added layer. Actually PPPoE runs on layer2 ethernet and is not even routeable. Now the ATM layer than the ADSL modem adds is routeable as far as I know, which is how the phone network moves the data to the ISP I believe. > As I mentioned in another note, PPP is used for some serial connection > (I've configured it over T1, ISDN, SHDSL and good ol' dial up modem). > ADSL normally used PPPoE. Well ADSL in this part of the world normally uses Ethernet, and frequently (for home users at least) uses PPPoE on top of that. Other parts of the world often use PPPoA instead skipping the ethernet bit entirely. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 15:50:15 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:50:15 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAC9616.2020306-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <4CAC9616.2020306@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006155015.GH12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 11:30:30AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > If the ADSL modem can be configured so that it provides only ethernet to > the router, then you'd wind up with IPv6 over PPPoE, in the same manner > as ADSL provides IPv4 over PPPoE. The router mentioned in the article > is the Linksys WRT54G, which, last I heard, does not connect directly to > a phone line to provide ADSL service. However, some ISPs provide a > router that does. Certainly most if not all of the ADSL modems I have ever seen teksavvy sell, provide ethernet only. They are not routers, and they do not run PPPoE in the modem (that would be a router job after all), and they do not have IP of any kind. The other things are combined ADSL modems and routers. I got one of those for my sister when she got ADSL which is a router/ADSL2+ modem/Wifi AP in one. Very handy. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 16:06:27 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 12:06:27 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006151856.GE12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > No it doesn't. It connects to the ADSL modem using ethernet, and the > ethernet frames are sent to the ISP. There is no IP of any kind involved > in moving PPP frames to the ISP. PPP runs on layer2 frames, not layer3. > Perhaps I'm being overly economical with words. When you connect via ADSL you are using IP over ethernet. In my previous note, the ethernet was assumed. Now, that IP gets stuffed into PPPoE to the ISP. This might be described as layer 3 on layer 2 on layer 2, with PPPoE being the extra layer 2. > PPPoE goes from the router to the ISP. Between the router and the ISP > it is just ethernet (temporarily transported over ATM over DSL by the > ADSL modem). The modem knows nothing about PPP or IP unless it happens > to be a router as well. > > So no, the modem is NOT configured for IPv4 because it doesn't even know > what IP is. > Perhaps I should have said ADSL service. Right now, with most ISPs you'd have a tough time passing IPv6 traffic, because all the equipment is not configured to handle it. If Teksavvy had their own DSLAMs in the Bell CO, then it would be easier for them to provide IPv6 support (they'd also avoid Bell throttling), as PPP, including PPPoE will support almost any packet based protocol. The big problem is how the various devices are configured. When you have an ADSL connection, the equipment commonly used is expecting IPv4 and nothing else. Will the basic ADSL modem, as provided by Bell etc., support multiple protocols? Or will it filter out those other protocols? (I realize D.H.R. has a basic ethernet ADSL modem) What about the equipment back at the C.O.? The DSLAM shelves I've worked with supported only IPv4 (It's been about 5 years since I've worked on a DSLAM in a C.O., but I have worked on others, in corporate networks more recently. I have also worked with SHDSL gear, TSUs and short haul microwave that didn't care, as they were were configured as an ethernet bridge.). Hopefully equipment suppliers are starting to take the hint, as I've seen some consumer level routers that now support IPv6, as does Cisco gear. Last time I was talking to an Adtran engineer, it was still "in development" with no target dates. On the cable modem side, DOCSIS 3 supports IPv6 as part of the standard and there's an update for DOCSIS 2. Will Rogers provide an update for my modem? Or will I have to buy a new one? However, even when the equipment supports IPv6, the ISPs and carriers also have to get off their butts. A few months ago, I was talking to a hosting site manager for a major ISP/telecom and he said they had no plans for IPv6. Teksavvy appears to be an exception to this and I believe Telus is also working on setting up IPv6 support. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 16:14:39 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 12:14:39 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006154752.GG12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <20101006145245.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC95DD.7070605@rogers.com> <20101006154752.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CACA06F.70909@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > 6in4 tunneling adds 20 bytes on top of what IPv4 PPPoE already needed. > The 6in4 still runs on top of PPPoE after all, so it is in addition, > not instead of. > Lets review that article linked to in the original post. It talks about modifying a WRT54G router to support IPv6 to an ADSL ISP. Does that ADSL service support IPv6 over PPPoE directly? Or does it require the PPP link be carried over IPv4? That router, as far as I know, does not connect directly to the phone line. I have worked with industrial level routers that support ADSL through a plug in module. However, as those routers supported only IPv4, you couldn't send IPv6 over that ADSL line, without some form of tunnelling. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 16:29:08 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 12:29:08 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006155015.GH12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <4CAC9616.2020306@rogers.com> <20101006155015.GH12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CACA3D4.10908@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > The other things are combined ADSL modems and routers. I got one of those > for my sister when she got ADSL which is a router/ADSL2+ modem/Wifi AP > in one. Very handy. > Perhaps I should mention that my discussion in this thread has been coloured by my experiences in working with Bell/Sympatico ADSL at customer sites. My experience with them has mostly been to connect industrial grade routers to ADSL. Bell likes to supply a modem that will not work easily with those routers as they're configured to make things "easy" for customers who might not know how to configure for PPPoE. I have, on occasion, had a real struggle to get them to supply the appropriate equipment, which is a basic ADSL modem that relied on the attached device (computer, router etc.) to log onto the ADSL service, instead of the modem doing it. A modem like that would work fine with the WRT modem as described. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 16:36:34 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:36:34 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CACA06F.70909-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <20101006145245.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC95DD.7070605@rogers.com> <20101006154752.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACA06F.70909@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006163634.GI12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 12:14:39PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lets review that article linked to in the original post. It talks about > modifying a WRT54G router to support IPv6 to an ADSL ISP. Does that > ADSL service support IPv6 over PPPoE directly? Or does it require the > PPP link be carried over IPv4? That router, as far as I know, does not > connect directly to the phone line. I have worked with industrial level > routers that support ADSL through a plug in module. However, as those > routers supported only IPv4, you couldn't send IPv6 over that ADSL line, > without some form of tunnelling. Given the ISP in this case is teksavvy themselves, then it sounds like yes they do. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 16:47:28 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:47:28 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAC9E83.4080501-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 12:06:27PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Perhaps I'm being overly economical with words. When you connect via > ADSL you are using IP over ethernet. In my previous note, the ethernet > was assumed. Now, that IP gets stuffed into PPPoE to the ISP. This > might be described as layer 3 on layer 2 on layer 2, with PPPoE being > the extra layer 2. You can run ADSL in pure bridged ethernet mode (which doesn't hence have PPPoE) if you have a direct connection to the DSLAM of the ISP. Teksavvy has that service in some places. Some business services from Bell also work that way. Most connections use PPPoE instead, which permits Bell to route the PPP packets to an ISP over a shared network and hence doesn't require the ISP to have their own equipment at the C.O. > Perhaps I should have said ADSL service. Right now, with most ISPs > you'd have a tough time passing IPv6 traffic, because all the equipment > is not configured to handle it. If Teksavvy had their own DSLAMs in the > Bell CO, then it would be easier for them to provide IPv6 support > (they'd also avoid Bell throttling), as PPP, including PPPoE will > support almost any packet based protocol. The big problem is how the > various devices are configured. When you have an ADSL connection, the > equipment commonly used is expecting IPv4 and nothing else. Will the > basic ADSL modem, as provided by Bell etc., support multiple protocols? > Or will it filter out those other protocols? (I realize D.H.R. has a > basic ethernet ADSL modem) What about the equipment back at the C.O.? > The DSLAM shelves I've worked with supported only IPv4 (It's been about > 5 years since I've worked on a DSLAM in a C.O., but I have worked on > others, in corporate networks more recently. I have also worked with > SHDSL gear, TSUs and short haul microwave that didn't care, as they were > were configured as an ethernet bridge.). Hopefully equipment suppliers > are starting to take the hint, as I've seen some consumer level routers > that now support IPv6, as does Cisco gear. Last time I was talking to > an Adtran engineer, it was still "in development" with no target dates. > On the cable modem side, DOCSIS 3 supports IPv6 as part of the standard > and there's an update for DOCSIS 2. Will Rogers provide an update for > my modem? Or will I have to buy a new one? Well I don't think Bell's network needs to know anything about IP. The PPP connection request (which is a layer2 control packet, NOT IP), contains the username, which is used to route the connection to the correct ISP. Once it reaches the ISP, the PPP link can negotaite between the end user and the ISP. That negotiation then provides an IP link on top of PPP. So at no point does Bell care what kind of traffic PPP is going to carry. To Bell they are all PPP packets and what is inside is irrelevant. This is also how teksavvy can support MLPPP even though Bell doesn't. It happens to also conviniently confuse Bell's throthling box because it doesn't understand MLPPP packets, even though Bell's network has no problem moving them (after all MLPPP packets are still perfectly normal PPP packets). So if the ISP supports IPv6 on PPP (and teksavvy does) and the end user supports IPv6 on PPP (which the modified router teksavvy is selling does), then you can get native IPv6 over PPP. In the case of the cable modem, they seem to use MAC addreses on each modem and essentially appear as ethernet bridges and even use DHCP (which really only works on ethernet like networks), so I would be surprised if DOCSIS had any part in which version of IP they can run. It would seem like a design mistake if they needed to know. Of course that doesn't mean they didn't make such a design mistake. > However, even when the equipment supports IPv6, the ISPs and carriers > also have to get off their butts. A few months ago, I was talking to a > hosting site manager for a major ISP/telecom and he said they had no > plans for IPv6. Teksavvy appears to be an exception to this and I > believe Telus is also working on setting up IPv6 support. It seems many telco's hate spending money on infastructure if they can see any way to avoid it. After all they are making lots of money now with what they have, and they don't know if the new stuff will make them more money, so why take a risk. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 16:50:06 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:50:06 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CACA3D4.10908-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <4CAC9616.2020306@rogers.com> <20101006155015.GH12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACA3D4.10908@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006165006.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 12:29:08PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Perhaps I should mention that my discussion in this thread has been > coloured by my experiences in working with Bell/Sympatico ADSL at > customer sites. My experience with them has mostly been to connect > industrial grade routers to ADSL. Bell likes to supply a modem that > will not work easily with those routers as they're configured to make > things "easy" for customers who might not know how to configure for > PPPoE. I have, on occasion, had a real struggle to get them to supply > the appropriate equipment, which is a basic ADSL modem that relied on > the attached device (computer, router etc.) to log onto the ADSL > service, instead of the modem doing it. A modem like that would work > fine with the WRT modem as described. That's what Bell provides these days. It used to be they supplied nice simple ADSL modems and it was up to the end user's PC or other equipment to take care of PPPoE. They used to provide PPPoE connection manager software for windows users. As far as I recall the PPPoE support in Linux was originally done by someone in Ontario that wanted to connect to Bell's new ADSL service (after they started converting away from the old Nortel proprietary system). That was in the late 90s. Had the modems back then had built in routers there would probably have been a lot less need for PPPoE support in linux. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 17:20:52 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 13:20:52 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006164728.GJ12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Well I don't think Bell's network needs to know anything about IP. > At some point, you're going to hit some equipment, such as a router, that only understands IP. As I mentioned in another note, Bell is in the habit of supplying ADSL modems that only work with IP. > In the case of the cable modem, they seem to use MAC addreses on each > modem and essentially appear as ethernet bridges and even use DHCP > (which really only works on ethernet like networks), so I would be > surprised if DOCSIS had any part in which version of IP they can run. > It would seem like a design mistake if they needed to know. Of course > that doesn't mean they didn't make such a design mistake. > I don't know enough about DOCSIS to know where the problem lies, however, "design mistakes" are common in a lot of areas. I wouldn't be surprised if they filtered for IPv4 only, in order to keep non IP protocols off the cable networks. IPX anyone? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 18:11:05 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:11:05 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CACAFF4.20500-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 01:20:52PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > At some point, you're going to hit some equipment, such as a router, > that only understands IP. As I mentioned in another note, Bell is in > the habit of supplying ADSL modems that only work with IP. They do now. They didn't always. Also many ISPs don't do that. I don't think anyone in their right mind would sign up for service from Bell. The horror stories about their service and billing departments are just awful. > I don't know enough about DOCSIS to know where the problem lies, > however, "design mistakes" are common in a lot of areas. I wouldn't be > surprised if they filtered for IPv4 only, in order to keep non IP > protocols off the cable networks. IPX anyone? That is certainly a possibility. I could see why they might want to do that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 18:19:07 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:19:07 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006165006.GK12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <4CAC9616.2020306@rogers.com> <20101006155015.GH12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACA3D4.10908@rogers.com> <20101006165006.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CACBD9B.7010304@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > That's what Bell provides these days. Virtually all of my ADSL experience has been with Bell/Sympatico. The only exception is a friend who's with Primus. They gave her a WiFi/router that often causes problems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 18:19:43 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006165006.GK12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <4CAC9616.2020306@rogers.com> <20101006155015.GH12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACA3D4.10908@rogers.com> <20101006165006.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | That's what Bell provides these days. It used to be they supplied nice | simple ADSL modems and it was up to the end user's PC or other equipment | to take care of PPPoE. They used to provide PPPoE connection manager | software for windows users. As far as I recall the PPPoE support in | Linux was originally done by someone in Ontario that wanted to connect | to Bell's new ADSL service (after they started converting away from the | old Nortel proprietary system). That was in the late 90s. Had the | modems back then had built in routers there would probably have been a | lot less need for PPPoE support in linux. Roaring Penguin PPPoE. Written by David Skoll of Ottawa. Their main product now is email filtering. David's brother is Jeffrey Skoll, the first EBay president and philanthropist. The original ADSL modems were just modems. That's what I use (an Alcatel SpeedTouch Home). Newer modems usually include routers but no switch (i.e. a router with only one ethernet socket). The ones I've looked at will suppress the router function if you talk through them with PPPoE. For example, often available for less than $20. I bought that one as a spare and have tested the "suppressed router" mode. Some include a switch and have 4 ethernet ports and sometimes a 802.11x interface. I don't know if you can suppress the router function on those. I prefer to control the router. I actually use a PC as a gateway. It does firewalling and VPNing and some other server functions. In my copious spare time I intend to try to migrate all that into an OpenWRT box. I guess that there is no reason that the PPPoE processor needs to be a router but those functions seem to be combined in one unit. By doing PPPoE in my gateway, I guess I'm getting better logging. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 18:22:25 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:22:25 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006181105.GL12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > They do now. They didn't always. Forgot to mention, the big problem with that gear is it issues RFC1918 addresses in the 182.168.x.x range. Since I was usually trying to provide an end to end service, I needed real, non-RFC1918 addresses. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 18:31:07 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CACBE61.3040009-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | Lennart Sorensen wrote: | > They do now. They didn't always. | Forgot to mention, the big problem with that gear is it issues RFC1918 | addresses in the 182.168.x.x range. Since I was usually trying to provide an | end to end service, I needed real, non-RFC1918 addresses. Are you saying that it only supports NAPT? Without NAPT, I would expect it to be agnostic about the LAN IP addresses. My ADSL gateway doesn't do NAPT. I have my Class C subnet routed through it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 18:59:51 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:59:51 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CACBE61.3040009-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006185951.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 02:22:25PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Forgot to mention, the big problem with that gear is it issues RFC1918 > addresses in the 182.168.x.x range. Since I was usually trying to > provide an end to end service, I needed real, non-RFC1918 addresses. Right they provide a router than does NAT and uses DHCP to serve multiple machines in a household. You want the real IP assigned to the PPPoE interface. So I guess don't use Bell's router/modem and get a real ADSL modem. :) They don't cost much. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 20:03:55 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:03:55 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Are you saying that it only supports NAPT? Without NAPT, I would > expect it to be agnostic about the LAN IP addresses. > Yes, those boxes provided an RFC1918 address. I don't know if the Bell side was also RFC1918, as some ISPs provide. For example Rogers does that to my smart phone. It would be one way for an ISP to avoid the IPv4 address shortage. However, that brings with it the problems associated with NAT. It's bad enough when a customer uses NAT, as they can set up forwarding etc. to get around it. That option is not available when the ISP uses it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 20:07:35 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:07:35 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006185951.GM12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <20101006185951.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CACD707.1070005@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > They don't cost much. All this was for customers, not me. They expect Bell to provide what's necessary. It is this work that has left such a bad taste in my mouth re Sympatico. The rest of Bell isn't so bad. However, I also had some other experience with them, when I was helping a neighbour. After 3 DOA modems, one of which also killed the phone line, they gave up and went with Rogers, which work fine from the start. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 20:15:17 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 16:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CACD62B.40903-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > Are you saying that it only supports NAPT? Without NAPT, I would | > expect it to be agnostic about the LAN IP addresses. | > | Yes, those boxes provided an RFC1918 address. You didn't answer the question that I intended. "provide" is ambiguous. "offer"? "only support"? Usually these things are configurable on the router. | I don't know if the Bell side | was also RFC1918, as some ISPs provide. Not usually, at least in North America. Some countries are so short of IP addresses that ISPs may do that. | For example Rogers does that to my | smart phone. Well smart phones are often second-class citizens. Some kind of cultural thing. | It's bad enough when a customer uses NAT, as they can set up forwarding etc. | to get around it. That option is not available when the ISP uses it. Yes. I hate imposed NAPT. (I call it NAPT because it requires Address and Port translation.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 20:35:33 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:35:33 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > You didn't answer the question that I intended. > > "provide" is ambiguous. "offer"? "only support"? Usually these things > are configurable on the router. > The boxes had only RFC1918 addresses. I couldn't see a way to change it and Sympatico "help" wasn't able to tell me either. > Not usually, at least in North America. Some countries are so short > of IP addresses that ISPs may do that. > I'm aware of one person in Edmonton who had it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 21:49:53 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 17:49:53 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CACD707.1070005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <20101006185951.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACD707.1070005@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101006214953.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 04:07:35PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > All this was for customers, not me. They expect Bell to provide what's > necessary. It is this work that has left such a bad taste in my mouth > re Sympatico. The rest of Bell isn't so bad. However, I also had some > other experience with them, when I was helping a neighbour. After 3 DOA > modems, one of which also killed the phone line, they gave up and went > with Rogers, which work fine from the start. Bell is in general a decent phone company. Their cell phone service works pretty well, although is over priced as cell phones are in Canada. Their internet service is simply awful. I use Bell for my phone line. I use rogers for my cell phone (and cable TV) and currently for internet since Bell didn't support ADSL when I moved in 6 years ago. They do now, and I keep meaning to switch to teksavvy, I just haven't got around to it. Rogers is expensive for internet, but it is quite reliable and very fast. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 22:01:30 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:01:30 -0400 Subject: Why not to buy cheap power supplies Message-ID: <20101006220130.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Here is a "500W" power supply being tested at 420W load. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCwgK_fvZ6I It was the second one they tried just in case the first one was a fluke. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 23:03:27 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CACDD95.7080803-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | The boxes had only RFC1918 addresses. I couldn't see a way to change it and | Sympatico "help" wasn't able to tell me either. OK, I think that we have a communicatinos gap. I don't know what you were trying to do that the router wasn't supporting. My guess is that it isn't a router limitation but one further upstream. The real issue is surely routing within the Bell system. It is likely that there was no way to get Bell to route IP addresses assigned by ARIN to you (if you even had any). Normally, if you need routable IP addresses (plural), they would be assigned to you by your upstream (Bell) via some contractual arrangement. ARIN only gives out portable IP addresses to big fish (I got mine about 20 years ago under different rules). If you have routable addresses in another site (with another provider) you can create a tunnel that lets the address to be attached to a machine elsewhere. Rogers used to let you pay extra to get a second routable IP address. Those were very slow moving dynamic IP addresses. Bell's are fairly fast moving dynamic IP addresses (and hence less useful for serving). Can you summarise what you were trying to do and how you were blocked.? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 6 23:48:08 2010 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 19:48:08 -0400 Subject: Why not to buy cheap power supplies In-Reply-To: <20101006220130.GO12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006220130.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAD0AB8.6070601@alteeve.com> On 10-10-06 06:01 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Here is a "500W" power supply being tested at 420W load. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCwgK_fvZ6I > > It was the second one they tried just in case the first one was a fluke. There is a very good reason why I've advocated for quality PSUs. Over the last 15 years I have seen no end of fuxxored systems that were killed by cheap power supplies. The axiom "You get what you paid for" was made for PSUs. -- Digimer E-Mail: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org AN!Whitepapers: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 00:31:35 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 20:31:35 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101006214953.GN12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <20101006185951.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACD707.1070005@rogers.com> <20101006214953.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAD14E7.9010207@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I use rogers for my cell phone (and cable > TV) and currently for internet I use Rogers for internet, home phone, cell phone and TV. As I result, I get a 15% discount on everything. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 00:41:01 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 20:41:01 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CAD171D.1070601@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Can you summarise what you were trying to do and how you were > blocked.? > Among other things, I was setting up a device called a "PBX extender". This is used when a company wants some phone at a different location from where the PBX is located. One end looks likes digital phones to the PBX and the other, like a PBX to the phones. I've connected them via ISDN, fractional T1, short haul microwave, fibre and also IP. The modems that Bell likes to supply use NAT, even on single port models and DHCP, rather than have the computer or other device configure for PPPoE. These modems hand out the RFC1918 addresses, which are unsuitable. They had another modem available, that would do what was necessary, but sometimes they delivered the wrong one and I would have the "pleasure" of calling Sympatico help to get a replacement. Bell would provide a static IP to business customers on (extra cost?) request. I have Rogers at home and my DHCP address is virtually static, and I also have a consistent host name that doesn't change, unless I replace equipment and wind up with different MAC addresses. This contrasts with Bell, where your host name depends on your IP address. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 00:49:26 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 20:49:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 2010 FSOSS Symposium at Seneca at York Message-ID: October 28 and 29 (Thursday and Friday). The early-bird registration is a lot cheaper up until October 8 (Friday): See the preseneations list and the workshops list. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 01:01:52 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAD171D.1070601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> <4CAD171D.1070601@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > Can you summarise what you were trying to do and how you were | > blocked.? | > | Among other things, I was setting up a device called a "PBX extender". This | is used when a company wants some phone at a different location from where the | PBX is located. One end looks likes digital phones to the PBX and the other, | like a PBX to the phones. I've connected them via ISDN, fractional T1, short | haul microwave, fibre and also IP. The modems that Bell likes to supply use | NAT, even on single port models and DHCP, rather than have the computer or | other device configure for PPPoE. These modems hand out the RFC1918 | addresses, which are unsuitable. They had another modem available, that would | do what was necessary, but sometimes they delivered the wrong one and I would | have the "pleasure" of calling Sympatico help to get a replacement. Bell | would provide a static IP to business customers on (extra cost?) request. Are you saying that PBX extenders would do PPPoE but could not function as ADSL modems? What an odd capability. Were the "good" modems just modems and the "bad" ones modem + PPPoE client + router-that-cannot-be-configured-usefully? | have Rogers at home and my DHCP address is virtually static, and I also have a | consistent host name that doesn't change, unless I replace equipment and wind | up with different MAC addresses. This contrasts with Bell, where your host | name depends on your IP address. True. Not quite static. It changes every year or two for me. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 02:37:49 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 22:37:49 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> <4CAC87BE.2090403@rogers.com> <20101006145449.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9068.2070000@rogers.com> <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> <4CAD171D.1070601@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CAD327D.7020001@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Are you saying that PBX extenders would do PPPoE but could not > function as ADSL modems? What an odd capability. > No. Those devices could be connected via V.35 serial port or IP. If using IP over ADSL, there'd be a router that connected to the ADSL line. The router would be configured to provided an IPSec VPN between sites. I have also used IP over fibre, microwave and SHDSL, where those devices were simply an ethernet bridge. The serial port is used to connect via ISDN, using an ISU or fractional T1, using a TSU, or sometimes via a TDM multiplexer with a V.35 card. Depending on the model, they could handle up to 24 extensions. The bandwidth required depended on the compression used. They used a proprietary protocol and not SIP. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 11:45:41 2010 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 07:45:41 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <20101006034511.GA23883@waltdnes.org> <4CAC6887.9010509@rogers.com> Message-ID: While reading this thread with Google's web reader, one of the sponsored add links had the description "Native ADSL IPv6 connections no tunnels - better performance" and lead to here: This sounds like the same thing Teksavvy is testing. -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 15:16:19 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:16:19 -0400 Subject: Why not to buy cheap power supplies In-Reply-To: <4CAD0AB8.6070601-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006220130.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAD0AB8.6070601@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20101007151619.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 07:48:08PM -0400, Digimer wrote: > On 10-10-06 06:01 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Here is a "500W" power supply being tested at 420W load. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCwgK_fvZ6I > > > > It was the second one they tried just in case the first one was a fluke. > > There is a very good reason why I've advocated for quality PSUs. Over > the last 15 years I have seen no end of fuxxored systems that were > killed by cheap power supplies. > > The axiom "You get what you paid for" was made for PSUs. I don't think that power supply was even worth what one would pay for it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 15:17:52 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:17:52 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAD14E7.9010207-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <20101006185951.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACD707.1070005@rogers.com> <20101006214953.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAD14E7.9010207@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101007151752.GQ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 08:31:35PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> I use rogers for my cell phone (and cable >> TV) and currently for internet > I use Rogers for internet, home phone, cell phone and TV. As I result, > I get a 15% discount on everything. I will never use rogers home phone. I want my main phone line to always work, which I don't trust a cable network based system with battery backup (for a few hours) to do. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 15:21:49 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:21:49 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> <4CAD171D.1070601@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101007152149.GR12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 09:01:52PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Are you saying that PBX extenders would do PPPoE but could not > function as ADSL modems? What an odd capability. PPPoE is just software. Any device with an ethernet port can trivially support it. Just about all wifi routers support it. Nothing odd about that. ADSL hardware on the other hand is not trivial and hence not worth including in most routers, only those that are specificly intended to connect to an ADSL line. > Were the "good" modems just modems and the "bad" ones modem + PPPoE > client + router-that-cannot-be-configured-usefully? I suspect the "good" modems were ones that let you choose which way they operated. The older ones were just modems and nothing else, but I suspect Bell stopped suppliying those some years ago given they now love to advertise that their internet service includes wifi for your laptop. > True. Not quite static. It changes every year or two for me. Close enough to static for many people though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 15:25:26 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:25:26 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAD327D.7020001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> <4CAD171D.1070601@rogers.com> <4CAD327D.7020001@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101007152526.GS12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 10:37:49PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > No. Those devices could be connected via V.35 serial port or IP. If > using IP over ADSL, there'd be a router that connected to the ADSL line. > The router would be configured to provided an IPSec VPN between sites. I > have also used IP over fibre, microwave and SHDSL, where those devices > were simply an ethernet bridge. The serial port is used to connect via > ISDN, using an ISU or fractional T1, using a TSU, or sometimes via a TDM > multiplexer with a V.35 card. Depending on the model, they could handle > up to 24 extensions. The bandwidth required depended on the compression > used. They used a proprietary protocol and not SIP. s/IP over ADSL/Ethernet over ADSL/ There is no such thing as IP over ADSL. You can run IP on ethernet which ADSL can carry, or you can run IP on PPPoE over ethernet which ADSL can carry. You can have bridged ethernet mode, or PPPoE mode (which actually still uses bridged ethernet but is generally limited in what ethernet traffic it will carry). Nothing wrong with running IPX over a bridged ethernet ADSL link if you wanted to, although why you would want to I can't imagine. The modem doesn't care. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 15:44:47 2010 From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:44:47 -0400 Subject: Why not to buy cheap power supplies In-Reply-To: <20101007151619.GP12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006220130.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAD0AB8.6070601@alteeve.com> <20101007151619.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 07:48:08PM -0400, Digimer wrote: >> On 10-10-06 06:01 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> > Here is a "500W" power supply being tested at 420W load. >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCwgK_fvZ6I >> > >> > It was the second one they tried just in case the first one was a fluke. >> >> There is a very good reason why I've advocated for quality PSUs. Over >> the last 15 years I have seen no end of fuxxored systems that were >> killed by cheap power supplies. >> >> The axiom "You get what you paid for" was made for PSUs. > > I don't think that power supply was even worth what one would pay for it. > Over the years, I've come to realize that as with so many things, "You get what you pay for" turns out not to be the axiom it's supposed to be. Rather, it's a kind of curve from there through an inflection point right on through to "You pay for what you get". This is related, perhaps, to the point of diminishing returns. Oh, how I miss Douglas Adams... Cheers, Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 15:52:36 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:52:36 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101007152149.GR12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> <4CAD171D.1070601@rogers.com> <20101007152149.GR12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I suspect the "good" modems were ones that let you choose which way > they operated. ?The older ones were just modems and nothing else, but > I suspect Bell stopped suppliying those some years ago given they now > love to advertise that their internet service includes wifi for your > laptop. Bingo. Renting users a more sophisticated, hence higher rental fee, device is a larger revenue stream, and I used to pretty regularly get calls from Bell hawking this. BTW, I speak as a "not loving, but not particularly disgruntled" user that happens to use Sympatico. I haven't had a need to touch anything frequently, so the problems people report are ones I have (thus far) evaded. My worst problem was when they forced an upgrade because the circa-2001 ADSL "modem" wasn't compatible with whatever newish network hardware they were moving to. The painful part was the several day outage. And I noticed pretty material speed increases afterwards, so I haven't grand complaints. My main complaint that hasn't justified "making a leap" yet is the periodic "junk mail" calls where they try to sell supplementary services. Usually one of: - We've got this cool "security software." Oh, you're not running Windows... (This is the time I pick the most obscure thing on my network, usually the laptop running FreeBSD, as "what I'm running." "You don't have a FreeBSD version? How sad...") - Would you like a wireless router? Only a few bucks more per month... The sad bit is that I know in *an instant* from the accents I hear that: - It's Bell, hiring a 3rd world call centre - They're operating their *sales centre* in the 3rd world - If they chose to offer *more* service, it could be "cheaper but better" - But reality is that they're offering less, and worse, service, because it's cheaper. The 3rd world call centre thing saddens me more than Bell's lack of technical acumen. Not only are they not particularly "world class," they've not got terribly much "class"... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 16:40:32 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 12:40:32 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> <4CAD171D.1070601@rogers.com> <20101007152149.GR12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101007164032.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 11:52:36AM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > Bingo. Renting users a more sophisticated, hence higher rental fee, > device is a larger revenue stream, and I used to pretty regularly get > calls from Bell hawking this. > > BTW, I speak as a "not loving, but not particularly disgruntled" user > that happens to use Sympatico. I haven't had a need to touch anything > frequently, so the problems people report are ones I have (thus far) > evaded. > > My worst problem was when they forced an upgrade because the > circa-2001 ADSL "modem" wasn't compatible with whatever newish network > hardware they were moving to. The painful part was the several day > outage. And I noticed pretty material speed increases afterwards, so > I haven't grand complaints. Yeah that was when they finally removed the last of the old proprietary Nortel DSL gear. I think they started rolling out the standards compliant ADSL in 98 or 99, and eventually decided to stop supporting the old stuff. > My main complaint that hasn't justified "making a leap" yet is the > periodic "junk mail" calls where they try to sell supplementary > services. Usually one of: > - We've got this cool "security software." Oh, you're not running > Windows... (This is the time I pick > the most obscure thing on my network, usually the laptop running > FreeBSD, as "what I'm running." > "You don't have a FreeBSD version? How sad...") > - Would you like a wireless router? Only a few bucks more per month... > > The sad bit is that I know in *an instant* from the accents I hear that: > - It's Bell, hiring a 3rd world call centre > - They're operating their *sales centre* in the 3rd world > - If they chose to offer *more* service, it could be "cheaper but better" > - But reality is that they're offering less, and worse, service, > because it's cheaper. > > The 3rd world call centre thing saddens me more than Bell's lack of > technical acumen. > > Not only are they not particularly "world class," they've not got > terribly much "class"... Yeah they are quite bad that way. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 16:43:44 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 12:43:44 -0400 Subject: Why not to buy cheap power supplies In-Reply-To: <20101007151619.GP12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006220130.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAD0AB8.6070601@alteeve.com> <20101007151619.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: That's nothing. It was pretty common to find power supplies in Brazil that had two wattages: a "peak" one (that would be your 500W) and a "regular" (around 300W). As a friend of mine once said: I never knew you could sell power supplies claiming you have PMPO Watts. :-P Obviously these were crap, but they're standard issue for almost everybody who builds vanilla machines. I bought an Akasa power supply as soon as I could when I still had a desktop. - FZ On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 11:16, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 07:48:08PM -0400, Digimer wrote: >> On 10-10-06 06:01 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> > Here is a "500W" power supply being tested at 420W load. >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCwgK_fvZ6I >> > >> > It was the second one they tried just in case the first one was a fluke. >> >> There is a very good reason why I've advocated for quality PSUs. Over >> the last 15 years I have seen no end of fuxxored systems that were >> killed by cheap power supplies. >> >> The axiom "You get what you paid for" was made for PSUs. > > I don't think that power supply was even worth what one would pay for it. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 16:45:26 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 12:45:26 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101007151752.GQ12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <20101006185951.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACD707.1070005@rogers.com> <20101006214953.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAD14E7.9010207@rogers.com> <20101007151752.GQ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 11:17, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 08:31:35PM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>> I use rogers for my cell phone (and cable >>> TV) and currently for internet >> I use Rogers for internet, home phone, cell phone and TV. ?As I result, >> I get a 15% discount on everything. > > I will never use rogers home phone. ?I want my main phone line to always > work, which I don't trust a cable network based system with battery backup > (for a few hours) to do. I don't have a landline and I don't miss it. - FZ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 17:28:25 2010 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:28:25 -0400 Subject: Why not to buy cheap power supplies In-Reply-To: References: <20101006220130.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAD0AB8.6070601@alteeve.com> <20101007151619.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: And after our very first blackout, the 300W blew up. We were lucky enough because the 500/300 was the only piece of hardware at our place that died on that blackout. And it was OMG AMAZING how the new Akasa was so incredibly silent and way better. It was even smaller. On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 12:43, Fabio FZero wrote: > That's nothing. It was pretty common to find power supplies in Brazil > that had two wattages: a "peak" one (that would be your 500W) and a > "regular" (around 300W). > > As a friend of mine once said: I never knew you could sell power > supplies claiming you have PMPO Watts. :-P > > Obviously these were crap, but they're standard issue for almost > everybody who builds vanilla machines. I bought an Akasa power supply > as soon as I could when I still had a desktop. > > - FZ > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 11:16, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 07:48:08PM -0400, Digimer wrote: >>> On 10-10-06 06:01 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>> > Here is a "500W" power supply being tested at 420W load. >>> > >>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCwgK_fvZ6I >>> > >>> > It was the second one they tried just in case the first one was a fluke. >>> >>> There is a very good reason why I've advocated for quality PSUs. Over >>> the last 15 years I have seen no end of fuxxored systems that were >>> killed by cheap power supplies. >>> >>> The axiom "You get what you paid for" was made for PSUs. >> >> I don't think that power supply was even worth what one would pay for it. >> >> -- >> Len Sorensen >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Renata Rocha http://renata.org http://www.linkedin.com/in/renatarocha -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 18:17:30 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:17:30 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <20101007152526.GS12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> <4CAD171D.1070601@rogers.com> <4CAD327D.7020001@rogers.com> <20101007152526.GS12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAE0EBA.3030402@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > s/IP over ADSL/Ethernet over ADSL/ I used that only to indicate how the customer connected to the interent. I've done others over fibre, short haul microwave, cable modem, TDM muxes etc. My work is in the world where computer networks and telecom meet. As a result I work with a wide range of technolgies and perhaps sometimes I may not use exactly the correct word in my attempts to be brief. If I really wanted to get specific, a lot of you wouldn't know what I was referring to because you've never heard of it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 18:20:27 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:20:27 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <4CACD62B.40903@rogers.com> <4CACDD95.7080803@rogers.com> <4CAD171D.1070601@rogers.com> <20101007152149.GR12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAE0F6B.9030304@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > The sad bit is that I know in*an instant* from the accents I hear that: > - It's Bell, hiring a 3rd world call centre > Might be from Brampton. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 18:27:13 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:27:13 -0400 Subject: Why not to buy cheap power supplies In-Reply-To: References: <20101006220130.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAD0AB8.6070601@alteeve.com> <20101007151619.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAE1101.7000808@rogers.com> Fabio FZero wrote: > That's nothing. It was pretty common to find power supplies in Brazil > that had two wattages: a "peak" one (that would be your 500W) and a > "regular" (around 300W). > > That reminds me of some of the stereo ads of many years ago, when they posted *VERY* optimistic power levels. They'd use terms like "peak to peak" power, whatever that nonsense is supposed to be. Then in the computer world we had CPUs rated by what speed of '286 CPU would give the same performance. Anyone here remembmer "Winmarks" in a certain computer vendors ads? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 18:28:55 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:28:55 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: References: <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <20101006185951.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACD707.1070005@rogers.com> <20101006214953.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAD14E7.9010207@rogers.com> <20101007151752.GQ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CAE1167.9030800@rogers.com> Fabio FZero wrote: > I don't have a landline and I don't miss it. > My Rogers cell phone doesn't work well at one end of my condo. I had the same issues with my work phone, when we were on Telus. Also, even radio reception could be better at this end of my unit. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 18:53:19 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:53:19 -0400 Subject: IPv4 to IPv6... In-Reply-To: <4CAE1167.9030800-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101006151856.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAC9E83.4080501@rogers.com> <20101006164728.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACAFF4.20500@rogers.com> <20101006181105.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACBE61.3040009@rogers.com> <20101006185951.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CACD707.1070005@rogers.com> <20101006214953.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAD14E7.9010207@rogers.com> <20101007151752.GQ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CAE1167.9030800@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:28 PM, James Knott wrote: > Fabio FZero wrote: >> >> I don't have a landline and I don't miss it. > > My Rogers cell phone doesn't work well at one end of my condo. ?I had the > same issues with my work phone, when we were on Telus. ?Also, even radio > reception could be better at this end of my unit. I switched from Bell Mobility to Rogers because the Bell antenna near work was placed such that I had a large Faraday cage (e.g. - server room :-)) between my desk and Bell's antenna. The placement of large chunks of metal in one's infrastructure can certainly affect reception for wireless links. I tend to prefer wired links, myself, whenever I can get them... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 21:34:38 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:34:38 -0400 Subject: linux security books In-Reply-To: References: <4CA7CBEB.6080601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 5:41 AM, Marcelo Cavalcante wrote: > As I can see, you're not just looking for a ssl tutorial, but also content > about security, right?! > You can check this magazine (for > free):?http://www.net-security.org/insecuremag.php?You can also check their > archive and download it all. > And about books, I would recommend these: > Security Power Tools -?http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596009632/ > Network Security Hacks -?http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596527631/ > Practical Unix and internet security > -?http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596003234/ > Security Monitoring -?http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596518165/ > Silence on the wire -?http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781593270469/ > Have fun. ;] > --- > -? ?v??? Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha / Kalib > - /(_)\? ITIL V3 Foundation Certified | Certified Scrum Master > -? ^ ^?? Usu?rio Linux #407564 / Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 > - GNU-Linux - Livre, Poderoso e Seguro > - TUX-CE Member - www.tux-ce.org > - KDE Brasil Member > - TLUG Member - Toronto Linux User Group > - http://www.marcelocavalcante.net Thanks I will take a look at these books! -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | http://DevMentor.org | Do Good! - Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 21:38:24 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:38:24 -0400 Subject: linux security books In-Reply-To: <4CA89FA7.5060708-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CA7CBEB.6080601@gmail.com> <4CA89FA7.5060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Mike Kallies wrote: > On 10/2/2010 8:18 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> i am behind a router firewall > > > If you're behind a router-firewall, you've already most of the way there. > > Check your router manufacturer site to make sure there are no recent > firmware patches to your router. ?There have been attacks against the > routers themselves. > > Ensure that the router cannot be remotely administered, or if it can, > that it has a stunningly complex password, because it will be attacked > endlessly, and are you *really* going to watch it? > > If the router does wifi, use WPA or better (Only WPA2 should be > considered actually secure) remember that anyone on the wifi network can > get into your home network. > > It sounds like you're learning, and you're also talking about protocols > like VNC. ?Free versions of VNC are not secure without some kind of > tunnel. ?The following is a very lazy configuration: > > - patch and secure your router/firewall > - set your computer to automatically install security updates to ssh > - use your router to forward port 22 to serve ssh to the Internet > - configure ssh to not allow root logins. ?If you must allow root > logins, force ssh keys. > - Use strong passwords on all your ssh accounts and don't give accounts > to anyone you don't trust to use a strong password. > - Do a portscan from a free remote portscanning website to ensure you > got your router config right. > > To reach your code repository, use SSH port forwarding, it's a > poor-man's tunnel, but ssh is easy to maintain. ?You can do the same for > VNC. ?You can even use ssh to tunnel back to your router to remotely > administer it without remote administration being enabled. > > The end result is that you're sharing one well-known, well-trusted and > well patched service (SSH) to access all services on your machine. > > In this configuration, you don't need to bother with SSL either. ?If you > want to be paranoid, configure the server to only serve http on > 127.0.0.1, then you can only reach it locally or from your ssh tunnel. > > The principle here is to simplify, expose as little as possible and then > secure, maintain and monitor what's exposed. > > ...the books will tell you how to open up the configuration securely to > do more interesting things. > > -Mike > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Mike thanks for the checklist, it's very handy for the kind of setup i want. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | http://DevMentor.org | Do Good! - Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 22:02:29 2010 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:02:29 -0400 Subject: Information Technology Infrastructure Library course? Message-ID: Hi pals Apology for spamming your in box, and I hope you do not mind a quick question. I am interested in taking ITIL course. The odd thing is, I can not seem to find any ITIL class on either Ryerson, York or Seneca website. Seriously, I have googled on it a lot. Is there someone here who can point me to such a class, or someone who can advice. Would really appreciate some pointes Thanks in advance for your advice William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 22:17:23 2010 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:17:23 -0400 Subject: Information Technology Infrastructure Library course? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101007221723.GA5067@yam.witteman.ca> On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 06:02:29PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: >Apology for spamming your in box, and I hope you do not mind a quick >question. I am interested in taking ITIL course. The odd thing is, I >can not seem to find any ITIL class on either Ryerson, York or Seneca >website. Seriously, I have googled on it a lot. > >Is there someone here who can point me to such a class, or someone who >can advice. Would really appreciate some pointes You may be looking for something taught at U of T's Faculty of Information (caveat - I am a 2005 Masters grad). Here is the course list. http://www.ischool.utoronto.ca/programs-courses/courses If you decide to apply, drop me a note offlist to hear more about my experience and see if I have any advice about tuning an application (if you want). -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 22:52:12 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:52:12 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use Message-ID: how do i start a service when a request comes in? i don't want the service running when the system boots up. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 22:59:12 2010 From: asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Asaf Maruf) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:59:12 -0400 Subject: Information Technology Infrastructure Library course? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B95AFE-9372-4A04-830C-1CE7DA994066@gmail.com> Hi ACM members have access to over 18 hours of ITIL ver 3 online training. Check with an ACM member. Asaf Sent from my iPhone. Please reply to asaf-EkmVulN54SnhvxM+mQhndA at public.gmane.org Asaf Maruf On 2010-10-07, at 6:02 PM, William Muriithi wrote: > Hi pals > > Apology for spamming your in box, and I hope you do not mind a quick > question. I am interested in taking ITIL course. The odd thing is, I > can not seem to find any ITIL class on either Ryerson, York or Seneca > website. Seriously, I have googled on it a lot. > > Is there someone here who can point me to such a class, or someone who > can advice. Would really appreciate some pointes > > Thanks in advance for your advice > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 23:46:42 2010 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 19:46:42 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE5BE2.7070108@alteeve.com> On 10-10-07 06:52 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > how do i start a service when a request comes in? > i don't want the service running when the system boots up. > I would suggest that, whatever app is called, checks the daemon's pid file on start. If it doesn't exist, then have it start the daemon. With this in place, disable the daemon's init.d script. Detailed advice will require a detailed question. :) -- Digimer E-Mail: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org AN!Whitepapers: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 7 23:59:54 2010 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 19:59:54 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE5EFA.2010409@utoronto.ca> On 07/10/10 06:52 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > how do i start a service when a request comes in? > i don't want the service running when the system boots up. You want to use xinetd. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 00:22:14 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 20:22:14 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: <4CAE5EFA.2010409-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CAE5EFA.2010409@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 07/10/10 06:52 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> how do i start a service when a request comes in? >> i don't want the service running when the system boots up. > > You want to use xinetd. > > Jamon afik ubuntu doesn't come with xinetd, i think it uses inetd? if so is it a simple matter of removing one and installing the other, do i need to worry about configuration files? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 00:27:45 2010 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:27:45 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE5EFA.2010409@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4CAE6581.6090402@utoronto.ca> On 07/10/10 08:22 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> On 07/10/10 06:52 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>> how do i start a service when a request comes in? >>> i don't want the service running when the system boots up. >> >> You want to use xinetd. >> >> Jamon > > afik ubuntu doesn't come with xinetd, i think it uses inetd? if so is > it a simple matter of removing one and installing the other, do i need > to worry about configuration files? The configuration files are different. Functionally, it sounds either will do what you're after so stick with Ubuntu's super-server. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ijaaz-UwkSZrAjFfdkDLQDXwjzI9BPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 01:15:30 2010 From: ijaaz-UwkSZrAjFfdkDLQDXwjzI9BPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Ijaaz A. Ullah) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:15:30 -0400 Subject: Information Technology Infrastructure Library course? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did the itil v3 foundations course through globalknowledge.com On 2010-10-07 6:02 PM, "William Muriithi" wrote: > Hi pals > > Apology for spamming your in box, and I hope you do not mind a quick > question. I am interested in taking ITIL course. The odd thing is, I > can not seem to find any ITIL class on either Ryerson, York or Seneca > website. Seriously, I have googled on it a lot. > > Is there someone here who can point me to such a class, or someone who > can advice. Would really appreciate some pointes > > Thanks in advance for your advice > > William > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 02:15:02 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 22:15:02 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > how do i start a service when a request comes in? > i don't want the service running when the system boots up. > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > -- This is my first time actually trying to do this, I found the following helpful https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBootupHowto bootup scripts managers you may want to install: BUM, sysv-rc-conf -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 13:56:57 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 09:56:57 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101008135657.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 06:52:12PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > how do i start a service when a request comes in? > i don't want the service running when the system boots up. inetd will launch things when a connection happens to a given port. However, in that case inetd is the one listening on the port, and I believe it requires launching one copy of the service per connection, and when the connection finishes the service instance terminates again. So unless the service can have multiple instances at once (which pretty much means it was designed to work with inet as an option) then there really is no good way to do what you want. The only way to recognize the incoming connection is to be listening on the port, but if you do that then you have to be the one that handles the request (or pass it on in the case of inetd). You could perhaps make a program that ran on the port and when it got a connection request it disconnected from the port and launched the real service, but then your first connection attempt would always fail and you would have to try again after the real service launched. That's pretty yucky really. So really, if you want a service, run it all the time, unless it supports inetd, in which case it can handle it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 14:05:17 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:05:17 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: <20101008135657.GU12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101008135657.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > So really, if you want a service, run it all the time, unless it supports > inetd, in which case it can handle it. That's a pretty good answer. If someone really doesn't want the service automatically started, they might look into "port knocking" as an approach... Basically, you have a service (possibly xinetd-based, or watching logs for port denials) which watches for someone knocking at some sequence of ports. If it sees this, it starts up the "real" service. But that requires a funky protocol addition for the client that was going to try to connect; it needs to be modified to "knock on the door" first. Which is quite likely to be an unacceptable imposition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_knocking -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 14:38:32 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:38:32 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: References: <20101008135657.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101008143832.GV12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 10:05:17AM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > That's a pretty good answer. > > If someone really doesn't want the service automatically started, they > might look into "port knocking" as an approach... True. After all the port knocking won't be a failed connection to the real service, it is a seperate step. > Basically, you have a service (possibly xinetd-based, or watching logs > for port denials) which watches for someone knocking at some sequence > of ports. If it sees this, it starts up the "real" service. > > But that requires a funky protocol addition for the client that was > going to try to connect; it needs to be modified to "knock on the > door" first. Which is quite likely to be an unacceptable imposition. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_knocking Of course if you are going for simple and you are the only user that needs the service, how about: ssh to box, start service, connect to service. Seems simple. If you need it often enough that that isn't convinient, then you should probably just leave it running. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 15:10:36 2010 From: grazer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jason Shaw) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 11:10:36 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: <20101008143832.GV12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101008135657.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101008143832.GV12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > > Of course if you are going for simple and you are the only user that > needs the service, how about: > > ssh to box, start service, connect to service. Seems simple. If you > need it often enough that that isn't convinient, then you should probably > just leave it running. > > Or if you want to potential attacks off a little bit, you could also run the service on an alternate port that only you know. Sure a port scan would still notice it, but scripts and the like that are set to go after port 80 and you're running the service on 9000 wouldn't pick it up. -jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 19:26:59 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 15:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: <20101008135657.GU12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101008135657.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > However, in that case inetd is the one listening on the port, and I > believe it requires launching one copy of the service per connection, > and when the connection finishes the service instance terminates again. My recollection was that inetd does not start any instances of a daughter daemon until a port connection comes in. As it happens I have something[1] using Inetd on my laptop and just tried it and sure enough there are no daughter daemons present until the connection comes in. [1] It's Leafnode. I'm back to using Usenet regularly and it seems to be more popular than it was a few years ago (but still not near the heyday of the early 90s). Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 8 19:41:59 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 15:41:59 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: References: <20101008135657.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101008194159.GW12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 03:26:59PM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: > My recollection was that inetd does not start any instances of a daughter > daemon until a port connection comes in. As it happens I have > something[1] using Inetd on my laptop and just tried it and sure enough > there are no daughter daemons present until the connection comes in. Right, but it is inetd listening on the port, not the service. The service gets called with stdio/out connected to the established connection. > [1] It's Leafnode. I'm back to using Usenet regularly and it seems to be > more popular than it was a few years ago (but still not near the heyday > of the early 90s). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 03:29:36 2010 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 23:29:36 -0400 Subject: Open license PROHIBITED at CBC. Message-ID: Want to meet the next open licensing issue? Here you go. "Hi, Matt. You're not looking in the wrong place. There's simply no Creative Commons music used in this episode. By management decree, CBC podcasts are no longer permitted to use CC music. " http://www.cbc.ca/spark/2010/10/spark-122-october-3-6-2010/#comment-26550 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From web-d7rjRpVnz4HL3mmD008VJw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 04:06:34 2010 From: web-d7rjRpVnz4HL3mmD008VJw at public.gmane.org (Eliot Frost) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 00:06:34 -0400 Subject: Open license PROHIBITED at CBC. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Or not: > > The issue with our use of Creative Commons music is that a lot of our > content is readily available on a multitude of platforms, some of which are > deemed to be ?commercial? in nature (e.g. streaming with pre-roll ads, or > pay for download on iTunes) and currently the vast majority of the music > available under a Creative Commons license prohibits commercial use. > > ... > > Everyone can rest easy-- there are no ?groups? setting out to stop the use > of Creative Commons music at the CBC, and we will continue to use Creative > Commons licensed music, pictures etc. across a number of our non-commercial > platforms. > They actually just aren't allowed to use CC music, so they don't. Seems straightforward to me. If you don't license non-commercial, they can use it. Easy. Eliot On 8 October 2010 23:29, Richard Weait wrote: > Want to meet the next open licensing issue? Here you go. > > "Hi, Matt. You're not looking in the wrong place. There's simply no > Creative Commons music used in this episode. By management decree, CBC > podcasts are no longer permitted to use CC music. " > > http://www.cbc.ca/spark/2010/10/spark-122-october-3-6-2010/#comment-26550 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 04:25:11 2010 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 00:25:11 -0400 Subject: Firefox compilation question Message-ID: <20101009042511.GA24696@waltdnes.org> Before totally giving up on Firefox, I want to try building it manually. It seems that that the Gentoo build force-feeds a lot of "options" that I don't want. I want to give it one last fair try. A long time ago, in a place far away, I used to build Mozilla 0.9x "the hard way", because the downloadable binary was painfully slow on my machine. And later on Phoenix 0.9x (remember that?). I've forgotten most of what I learned, but I can follow the instructions at https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Simple_Firefox_build I have a couple of questions before proceeding... 1) what do I have to set to force all files to be installed in /opt or in /usr/local ? Because this is outside of Gentoo's control, I'd like to be able to keep all the manually-built stuff in a separate directory. 2) I've got 8 gigs of ram. How do I force the compiler to use /dev/shm as the scratch directory ? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 05:11:17 2010 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 01:11:17 -0400 Subject: Firefox compilation question In-Reply-To: <20101009042511.GA24696-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20101009042511.GA24696@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: ./configure --prefix=/opt/firefox is usually the way. tl On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:25 AM, Walter Dnes wrote: > > ?Before totally giving up on Firefox, I want to try building it > manually. ?It seems that that the Gentoo build force-feeds a lot of > "options" that I don't want. ?I want to give it one last fair try. > > ?A long time ago, in a place far away, I used to build Mozilla 0.9x > "the hard way", because the downloadable binary was painfully slow on my > machine. ?And later on Phoenix 0.9x (remember that?). ?I've forgotten > most of what I learned, but I can follow the instructions at > https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Simple_Firefox_build ? I have a couple > of questions before proceeding... > > 1) what do I have to set to force all files to be installed in /opt or > in /usr/local ? ?Because this is outside of Gentoo's control, I'd like > to be able to keep all the manually-built stuff in a separate directory. > > 2) I've got 8 gigs of ram. ?How do I force the compiler to use /dev/shm > as the scratch directory ? > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 13:02:55 2010 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 09:02:55 -0400 Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows Message-ID: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> Hello Anyone using Ubuntu 10.04? I have a problem with sound. I can hear sound if I log on to a character console as root (a TTY, not an xterm), but not under any X-Windows applications. If I log onto a TTY as myself, I can only get sound if I use sudo, as in _$ sudo mpg123 Mrag.mp3 which will work. This trick does not work in X-Windows if I sudo in an xterm. I un-muted everything under alsamixer, and still nothing, following a reccomendation at the Ubuntu website for troubleshooting sound. It seems to be a problem affecting only my user account under X-Windows. When I log off, I hear the requisite bongo drums. Any suggestions? Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 14:45:35 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 10:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows In-Reply-To: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> References: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: | From: Paul King | It seems to be a problem affecting only my user account under X-Windows. | When I log off, I hear the requisite bongo drums. Shot in the dark: create a new account and see if sound works with it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 18:24:42 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:24:42 -0400 Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows In-Reply-To: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> References: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: Disable Pulse Audio. FOREVER. - FZ On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 09:02, Paul King wrote: > Hello > > Anyone using Ubuntu 10.04? I have a problem with sound. I can hear sound > if I log on to a character console as root (a TTY, not an xterm), but > not under any X-Windows applications. > > If I log onto a TTY as myself, I can only get sound if I use sudo, as in > > _$ sudo mpg123 Mrag.mp3 > > which will work. This trick does not work in X-Windows if I sudo in an > xterm. > > I un-muted everything under alsamixer, and still nothing, following a > reccomendation at the Ubuntu website for troubleshooting sound. > > It seems to be a problem affecting only my user account under X-Windows. > When I log off, I hear the requisite bongo drums. > > Any suggestions? > > Paul > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 18:27:41 2010 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:27:41 -0400 Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows In-Reply-To: References: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: disable alsa and pulse, and install oss4. that the only way i have ever been able to get sound and multiplex channels working in linux. check owner of /dev/ files. tl On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 2:24 PM, Fabio FZero wrote: > Disable Pulse Audio. > > FOREVER. > > - FZ > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 09:02, Paul King wrote: >> Hello >> >> Anyone using Ubuntu 10.04? I have a problem with sound. I can hear sound >> if I log on to a character console as root (a TTY, not an xterm), but >> not under any X-Windows applications. >> >> If I log onto a TTY as myself, I can only get sound if I use sudo, as in >> >> _$ sudo mpg123 Mrag.mp3 >> >> which will work. This trick does not work in X-Windows if I sudo in an >> xterm. >> >> I un-muted everything under alsamixer, and still nothing, following a >> reccomendation at the Ubuntu website for troubleshooting sound. >> >> It seems to be a problem affecting only my user account under X-Windows. >> When I log off, I hear the requisite bongo drums. >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> Paul >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 19:32:28 2010 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 15:32:28 -0400 Subject: To Teksavvy users... any billing problem? Message-ID: <20101009193228.GA4183@node1.opengeometry.net> Hi, I'm trying to switch Home Phone and Internet, from Rogers to Teksavvy. So, I called Teksavvy and was put on hold too long. I filled out online question and it got bounced. I email their sales address directly and no reply so far. All reminds me of Rogers. The only thing left is "billing problem" (the main reason why I want to switch). For those of you with Teksavvy, do you experience any billing problem? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 19:53:30 2010 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 15:53:30 -0400 Subject: To Teksavvy users... any billing problem? In-Reply-To: <20101009193228.GA4183-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101009193228.GA4183@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <60e31c8454102081d7348a9644a91639.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> I have been with TekSavvy for several years I have never had a problem. They charge my Visa every month and email me the receipt. > Hi, > > I'm trying to switch Home Phone and Internet, from Rogers to Teksavvy. > So, I called Teksavvy and was put on hold too long. I filled out online > question and it got bounced. I email their sales address directly and > no reply so far. All reminds me of Rogers. The only thing left is > "billing problem" (the main reason why I want to switch). > > For those of you with Teksavvy, do you experience any billing problem? > -- > William > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 20:04:48 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 16:04:48 -0400 Subject: To Teksavvy users... any billing problem? In-Reply-To: <60e31c8454102081d7348a9644a91639.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org> References: <20101009193228.GA4183@node1.opengeometry.net> <60e31c8454102081d7348a9644a91639.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Message-ID: Same here. Not one problem. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Jason Carson wrote: > I have been with TekSavvy for several years I have never had a problem. > They charge my Visa every month and email me the receipt. > >> Hi, >> >> I'm trying to switch Home Phone and Internet, from Rogers to Teksavvy. >> So, I called Teksavvy and was put on hold too long. ?I filled out online >> question and it got bounced. ?I email their sales address directly and >> no reply so far. ?All reminds me of Rogers. ?The only thing left is >> "billing problem" (the main reason why I want to switch). >> >> For those of you with Teksavvy, do you experience any billing problem? >> -- >> William >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 21:36:33 2010 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 17:36:33 -0400 Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows In-Reply-To: References: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <1286660193.6450.7.camel@aragorn> Hugh: I created a new account, and the sound worked obediently. The user has no password (don't worry, I intend to delete this account), and is I don't think it's an ALSA or any kind of driver problem, as I have had this same installation since April with no sound issues. This problem has only occurred in the past couple of days. It is likely that a recent "update" of Linux has caused a problem, as I've been updating mindlessly so far. Can't think of anything else. Paul On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 10:45 -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Paul King > > | It seems to be a problem affecting only my user account under X-Windows. > | When I log off, I hear the requisite bongo drums. > > Shot in the dark: create a new account and see if sound works with it. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 21:58:36 2010 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 17:58:36 -0400 Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows In-Reply-To: <1286660193.6450.7.camel@aragorn> References: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> <1286660193.6450.7.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <1286661516.6450.8.camel@aragorn> I would like to add quickly that it still doesn't solve the sound problem in my own account. That is still a problem. Paul On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 17:36 -0400, Paul King wrote: > Hugh: > > I created a new account, and the sound worked obediently. The user has > no password (don't worry, I intend to delete this account), and is I > don't think it's an ALSA or any kind of driver problem, as I have had > this same installation since April with no sound issues. This problem > has only occurred in the past couple of days. > > It is likely that a recent "update" of Linux has caused a problem, as > I've been updating mindlessly so far. Can't think of anything else. > > Paul > > On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 10:45 -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > | From: Paul King > > > > | It seems to be a problem affecting only my user account under X-Windows. > > | When I log off, I hear the requisite bongo drums. > > > > Shot in the dark: create a new account and see if sound works with it. > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 22:09:58 2010 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 18:09:58 -0400 Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows In-Reply-To: <1286661516.6450.8.camel@aragorn> References: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> <1286660193.6450.7.camel@aragorn> <1286661516.6450.8.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <1286662198.7341.2.camel@aragorn> I logged on as root, and the date stamp, group, user attributes and permission on ~/.gvfs was undefined (just "?" marks). But logging into the same directory as the owner of the home directory shows the same directory using ls -la with all of the attributes defined. This shows up the most under a TTY. Paul On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 17:58 -0400, Paul King wrote: > I would like to add quickly that it still doesn't solve the sound > problem in my own account. That is still a problem. > > Paul > > On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 17:36 -0400, Paul King wrote: > > Hugh: > > > > I created a new account, and the sound worked obediently. The user has > > no password (don't worry, I intend to delete this account), and is I > > don't think it's an ALSA or any kind of driver problem, as I have had > > this same installation since April with no sound issues. This problem > > has only occurred in the past couple of days. > > > > It is likely that a recent "update" of Linux has caused a problem, as > > I've been updating mindlessly so far. Can't think of anything else. > > > > Paul > > > > On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 10:45 -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > > | From: Paul King > > > > > > | It seems to be a problem affecting only my user account under X-Windows. > > > | When I log off, I hear the requisite bongo drums. > > > > > > Shot in the dark: create a new account and see if sound works with it. > > > -- > > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 22:39:52 2010 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 18:39:52 -0400 Subject: Information Technology Infrastructure Library course? In-Reply-To: <20101007221723.GA5067-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101007221723.GA5067@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <4CB0EF38.20307@utoronto.ca> On 07/10/10 06:17 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 06:02:29PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > >> Apology for spamming your in box, and I hope you do not mind a quick >> question. I am interested in taking ITIL course. The odd thing is, I >> can not seem to find any ITIL class on either Ryerson, York or Seneca >> website. Seriously, I have googled on it a lot. >> >> Is there someone here who can point me to such a class, or someone who >> can advice. Would really appreciate some pointes > > You may be looking for something taught at U of T's Faculty of > Information (caveat - I am a 2005 Masters grad). Here is the course > list. > > http://www.ischool.utoronto.ca/programs-courses/courses > > If you decide to apply, drop me a note offlist to hear more about my > experience and see if I have any advice about tuning an application (if > you want). I'm almost done my Masters at the Faculty of Information too. Happy to answer questions. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 9 22:58:07 2010 From: gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 18:58:07 -0400 Subject: To Teksavvy users... any billing problem? In-Reply-To: <60e31c8454102081d7348a9644a91639.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org> References: <20101009193228.GA4183@node1.opengeometry.net> <60e31c8454102081d7348a9644a91639.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Message-ID: <4CB0F37F.1010500@teksavvy.com> On 10/09/2010 03:53 PM, Jason Carson wrote: > I have been with TekSavvy for several years I have never had a problem. > They charge my Visa every month and email me the receipt. > I've been with them for several years and have not had problems. I too pay by VISA but they don't e-mail me a receipt. I didn't know they did that. Maybe I should ask for it. -- Glen Strom gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 00:02:10 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 20:02:10 -0400 Subject: Firefox compilation question In-Reply-To: <20101009042511.GA24696-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20101009042511.GA24696@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4CB10282.7010100@gmail.com> On 10-10-09 12:25 AM, Walter Dnes wrote: > Before totally giving up on Firefox, I want to try building it > manually. It seems that that the Gentoo build force-feeds a lot of > "options" that I don't want. I want to give it one last fair try. > > A long time ago, in a place far away, I used to build Mozilla 0.9x > "the hard way", because the downloadable binary was painfully slow on my > machine. And later on Phoenix 0.9x (remember that?). I've forgotten > most of what I learned, but I can follow the instructions at > https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Simple_Firefox_build I have a couple > of questions before proceeding... looks easy i'm going to give that a shot and try to build FF 4.0 beta on my ubuntu system! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 01:47:14 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 21:47:14 -0400 Subject: Are you running Linux as your desktop? Message-ID: Just to note, the following folks are attempting to refute the claim that Linux is on less than 1% of all desktops... If you are running Linux on your desktop PC you may want to add your vote: http://www.dudalibre.com/gnulinuxcounter?lang=en Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 01:51:15 2010 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 18:51:15 -0700 Subject: Are you running Linux as your desktop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are we allowed to vote more than once if we have multiple PC's, or use it both personally and at work? How about phones and mobile devices... that should add several thousands of Android users. Linux's not just for servers or *even* the desktop anymore, it's everywhere. :-) On 2010-10-09 6:47 PM, "Colin McGregor" wrote: Just to note, the following folks are attempting to refute the claim that Linux is on less than 1% of all desktops... If you are running Linux on your desktop PC you may want to add your vote: http://www.dudalibre.com/gnulinuxcounter?lang=en Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 02:03:19 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 22:03:19 -0400 Subject: Are you running Linux as your desktop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Are we allowed to vote more than once if we have multiple PC's, or use it > both personally and at work? If you have more than 1 desktop computer you can note that. I gather they are attempting to get away from the CLAIM that Linux is only a server/dedicated device OS. So, sure at home I am running Tomato Linux on my router (an early Linksys WRT54G), but when counting I didn't include that router, just desktops... Colin. > How about phones and mobile devices... that should add several thousands of > Android users. Linux's not just for servers or *even* the desktop anymore, > it's everywhere. :-) > > On 2010-10-09 6:47 PM, "Colin McGregor" wrote: > > Just to note, the following folks are attempting to refute the claim > that Linux is on less than 1% of all desktops... If you are running > Linux on your desktop PC you may want to add your vote: > > http://www.dudalibre.com/gnulinuxcounter?lang=en > > > > Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 03:33:00 2010 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 23:33:00 -0400 Subject: Are you running Linux as your desktop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: grrrr. i feel robbed, my wife has mint desktop, ubuntu portable, i have a ubuntu toughbook, and a ubuntu tablet, a redflag MID, a mint desktop, and a ubuntu desktop, and another mint desktop coming back online, and all they have is 5+ as an option! This stat is already going to be biases downwards :( .... :) not including my new samsung android (when ever it arrives). and not including about 4 linux servers, but, wouldn't be honest to count those. actually it already looks odd, MINT distro's are way out of proportion with what mint or distrowatch says, way out of proportion, i wonder if Minters are saying ubuntu? gotta find out what country belongs to that flag that is currently way out in front.... hitting google now. tl On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:03 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: >> Are we allowed to vote more than once if we have multiple PC's, or use it >> both personally and at work? > > If you have more than 1 desktop computer you can note that. I gather > they are attempting to get away from the CLAIM that Linux is only a > server/dedicated device OS. > > So, sure at home I am running Tomato Linux on my router (an early > Linksys WRT54G), but when counting I didn't include that router, just > desktops... > > Colin. > >> How about phones and mobile devices... that should add several thousands of >> Android users. Linux's not just for servers or *even* the desktop anymore, >> it's everywhere. :-) >> >> On 2010-10-09 6:47 PM, "Colin McGregor" wrote: >> >> Just to note, the following folks are attempting to refute the claim >> that Linux is on less than 1% of all desktops... If you are running >> Linux on your desktop PC you may want to add your vote: >> >> http://www.dudalibre.com/gnulinuxcounter?lang=en >> >> >> >> Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 04:36:05 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 00:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows In-Reply-To: <1286662198.7341.2.camel@aragorn> References: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> <1286660193.6450.7.camel@aragorn> <1286661516.6450.8.camel@aragorn> <1286662198.7341.2.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: Straightening out the top-posting: | > On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 17:36 -0400, Paul King wrote: | > > Hugh: | > > | > > I created a new account, and the sound worked obediently. The user has | > > no password (don't worry, I intend to delete this account), and is I | > > don't think it's an ALSA or any kind of driver problem, as I have had | > > this same installation since April with no sound issues. This problem | > > has only occurred in the past couple of days. That strongly indicates that you (your account) has some setting that is interfering with sound. I know that that is rather vague, but it eliminates a whole bunch of possible problems: - your hardware is clearly supported - the driver is working - the kernel, Gnome, etc. can work in your setup. - the updates seem fine (i.e. can work) | > > It is likely that a recent "update" of Linux has caused a problem, as | > > I've been updating mindlessly so far. Can't think of anything else. Not impossible, but clearly if it was an upgrade, it isn't broken in itself (because the new user's sound worked). Updates don't normally to change a user's settings -- they live in the user's home directory somewhere, usually within a .something-or-other file or directory. If the problem was created by an update, it is one that changed how your settings are being interpreted. | On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 17:58 -0400, Paul King wrote: | > I would like to add quickly that it still doesn't solve the sound | > problem in my own account. That is still a problem. Understood. It would be very odd if creating a new user account fixed something in your account. On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Paul King wrote: | I logged on as root, and the date stamp, group, user attributes and | permission on ~/.gvfs was undefined (just "?" marks). But logging into | the same directory as the owner of the home directory shows the same | directory using ls -la with all of the attributes defined. This shows up | the most under a TTY. I don't think .gvfs is relevant. It is a mysterious Gnome Virtual File System thingee. Suggested approach: - muck about looking for a relevant setting - if that doesn't work, carefully and temporarily replace some of your . files with ones from the new user. - beware: you may lose settings that you care about, ones that have nothing to do with sound - beware: there are are lots and lots of settings files. - each setting change may or may not only take effect when you log in again. A reboot should not be needed. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 04:47:23 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 00:47:23 -0400 Subject: monitoring login Message-ID: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> how can i send out a email whenever someone logs into a linux box or even attempts to? what are some of the methods and practices you guys use? thanks! -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 05:18:13 2010 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 01:18:13 -0400 Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: <4CB1455B.3010202-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: In the passwd file (or equiv, shadow,etc), you can set the login shell to a script you write that can run first, then run bash (sh, etc). for attempts , you can just consult standard logging. /var/log/auth.log. for immediate email notification of a fail login attempt? maybe watch log in real time? actually you can deal with all cases by watching auth.log log in realtime. tl On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:47 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > how can i send out a email whenever someone logs into a linux box or even > attempts to? what are some of the methods and practices you guys use? > thanks! > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 05:20:33 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 01:20:33 -0400 Subject: starting a service on use In-Reply-To: <20101008135657.GU12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101008135657.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CB14D21.1030703@gmail.com> On 10-10-08 09:56 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 06:52:12PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> how do i start a service when a request comes in? >> i don't want the service running when the system boots up. > So really, if you want a service, run it all the time, unless it supports > inetd, in which case it can handle it. i trying to setup a headless x11vnc server, i think i got the parameter right. i'm loggin with ssh and then start x11vnc. however i noticed that when i am not logged in (after a system reboot), i need to run the x11vnc server twice, it exits after initial login. how can i correct this, the command i am using is: x11vnc -forever -auth /var/lib/gdm/:0.Xauth also not sure if this will work for a headless server? i haven't removed my monitor yet to see =) also how can i increase the screen size? i am fixed at 1280x1024 which the monitor support but since i want to go headless i want to work with a bigger size of my vnc client. thanks -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 06:05:23 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 02:05:23 -0400 Subject: kubuntu 10.10 Message-ID: <4CB157A3.4060701@gmail.com> new release of kubuntu 10.10 should be out by tomorrow 10/10/10, anyone know what's new in this release? how is the desktop better than 10.04? i'm not excited to upgrade, still love 10.04! but there might be a reason to upgrade if performance is better? -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 07:51:14 2010 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 03:51:14 -0400 Subject: kubuntu 10.10 In-Reply-To: <4CB157A3.4060701-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB157A3.4060701@gmail.com> Message-ID: Reading your email, i went to ubuntu to download but it turned out to still be 10.4, but i saw about the weirdest thing i have ever seen (with respect to linux) on their site just now, under the download of 10.4, 64bit, it says: Not recommended for daily desktop usage Who even has 32 bit computers any more? so ubuntu only recommends 32bit os for "daily desktop usage". Maybe their site got hacked? I have to give 10.10 a try, 9.10 supported sleep/hibernate on my pc, but 10.04 didn't (great regression), hoping it comes back to workable in 10.10 . Probably linux's only sore spot now is not so great suspend support. looking forward to kick the tires on kde as well. tl On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:05 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > new release of kubuntu 10.10 should be out by tomorrow 10/10/10, anyone know > what's new in this release? how is the desktop better than 10.04? > > i'm not excited to upgrade, still love 10.04! but there might be a reason to > upgrade if performance is better? > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 08:27:46 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 04:27:46 -0400 Subject: kubuntu 10.10 In-Reply-To: References: <4CB157A3.4060701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB17902.1050301@gmail.com> On 10-10-10 03:51 AM, ted leslie wrote: > Reading your email, i went to ubuntu to download but it turned out to > still be 10.4, ya apparent 10.10 is not out but should be today, read this http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1590098 btw, if you go to the kubuntu site it still says 1 day left! i guess they are having problems finding maintainers =) > but i saw about the weirdest thing i have ever seen (with respect to > linux) on their site > just now, > under the download of 10.4, 64bit, it says: Not recommended for daily > desktop usage ha! i've been using kubuntu 10.04 x64 daily with no problems for over a year > Who even has 32 bit computers any more? so ubuntu only recommends > 32bit os for "daily desktop usage". > Maybe their site got hacked? > > I have to give 10.10 a try, 9.10 supported sleep/hibernate on my pc, > but 10.04 didn't (great regression), I have sleep/hibernation on my 10.04 kubuntu, possibly you need to go to settings to enable? i usually suspend to ram rather than shutting down, its awesome for faster boot up. I save any open document to disk first and close them down just in case of memory corruption! -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 11:00:57 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 07:00:57 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released Message-ID: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> It's official, the release is *finally* out! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:10:10 +0100 From: Robbie Williamson Organization: Ubuntu To: ubuntu-announce-nLRlyDuq1AZFpShjVBNYrg at public.gmane.org Some time ago a group of hyper-intelligent pan dimensional beings decided to finally answer the great question of Life, The Universe and Everything. To this end, a small band of these Debians built an incredibly powerful distribution, Ubuntu. After this great computer programme had run (a very quick 3 million minutes...or 6 years) the answer was announced. The Ultimate answer to Life, the Universe and Everything is...42, and in its' purest form 101010. Which suggests that what you really need to know is 'What was the Question?'. The great distribution kindly pointed out that what the problem really was that no-one knew the question. Accordingly, the distribution designed a set of successors, marked by a circle of friends...to ultimately bring Unity to all things living...Ubuntu 10.10, to find the question to the ultimate answer. And with that, the Ubuntu team is pleased to announce Ubuntu 10.10. Codenamed "Maverick Meerkat", 10.10 continues Ubuntu's proud tradition of integrating the latest and greatest open source technologies into a high-quality, easy-to-use Linux distribution. Read more about the features of Ubuntu 10.10 in the following press releases: Desktop and Netbook editions http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntu-10.10-desktop-edition Server edition http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntu-10.10-server-edition Canonical has also launched the ?Ubuntu Server on Cloud 10? program. Anyone will be able to try out Ubuntu 10.10 Server Edition on Amazon EC2 for free for one hour. Visitors to the download pages will now be able to choose to experience the ease and speed of public cloud computing and Ubuntu. For a direct link to the trial, please go to http://10.cloud.ubuntu.com Ubuntu 10.10 will be supported for 18 months on desktops, netbooks, and servers. Thanks to the efforts of the global translation community, Ubuntu is available in 37 languages. For a list of supported languages and detailed translation statistics for these and other languages, see: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dpm/ubuntu-10.10-translation-stats.html Ubuntu 10.10 is also the basis for new 10.10 releases of Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, UbuntuStudio, and Mythbuntu: Kubuntu http://kubuntu.org/news/10.10-release Xubuntu http://xubuntu.org/news/10.10-release Edubuntu http://edubuntu.org/news/10.10-release Mythbuntu http://mythbuntu.org/10.10/release Ubuntu Studio https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/10.10release_notes To Get Ubuntu 10.10 ------------------- To download Ubuntu 10.10, or obtain CDs, visit: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu Users of Ubuntu 10.04 LTS will be offered an automatic upgrade to 10.10 via Update Manager. For further information about upgrading, see: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/upgrading As always, upgrades to the latest version of Ubuntu are entirely free of charge. We recommend that all users read the release notes, which document caveats and workarounds for known issues. They are available at: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/1010 Find out what's new in this release with a graphical overview: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/1010overview If you have a question, or if you think you may have found a bug but aren't sure, try asking on the #ubuntu IRC channel, on the Ubuntu Users mailing list, or on the Ubuntu forums: #ubuntu on irc.freenode.net http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users http://www.ubuntuforums.org/ Helping Shape Ubuntu -------------------- If you would like to help shape Ubuntu, take a look at the list of ways you can participate at: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/ About Ubuntu ------------ Ubuntu is a full-featured Linux distribution for desktops, laptops, netbooks and servers, with a fast and easy installation and regular releases. A tightly-integrated selection of excellent applications is included, and an incredible variety of add-on software is just a few clicks away. Professional services including support are available from Canonical and hundreds of other companies around the world. For more information about support, visit: http://www.ubuntu.com/support More Information ---------------- You can find out more about Ubuntu and about this release on our website: http://www.ubuntu.com/ To sign up for future Ubuntu announcements, please subscribe to Ubuntu's very low volume announcement list at: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-announce -- Robbie Williamson robbie-GeWIH/nMZzLQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Ubuntu robbiew[irc.freenode.net] "You can't be lucky all the time, but you can be smart everyday" -Mos Def "Arrogance is thinking you are better than everyone else, while Confidence is knowing no one else is better than you." -Me ;) -- ubuntu-announce mailing list ubuntu-announce-nLRlyDuq1AZFpShjVBNYrg at public.gmane.org Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-announce -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 14:41:36 2010 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 07:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Are you running Linux as your desktop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <905326.14230.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi, An online survey is an awful way to get meaningful data. A much better way (but still imprecise) method is to look at the statistics from web server logs and it seems that Linux clients are about 2% - 5% of all clients (desktops or not), see for example http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/linux-desktop-market-share-small-no-matter-ho These percentages are in line with what I see in the web servers I manage. Cheers, Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com ----- Original Message ---- > From: Colin McGregor > To: tlug ; UU > Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 9:47:14 PM > Subject: [TLUG]: Are you running Linux as your desktop? > > Just to note, the following folks are attempting to refute the claim > that Linux is on less than 1% of all desktops... If you are running > Linux on your desktop PC you may want to add your vote: > > http://www.dudalibre.com/gnulinuxcounter?lang=en > > > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 14:58:50 2010 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 07:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: <4CB1455B.3010202-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <616284.91732.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi, I do this actually in my servers, by adding this line to /etc/profile: echo "`whoami` logged in at `date` from `echo $SSH_CLIENT`" | mail -s "`hostname` login" me-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Cheers, Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com ----- Original Message ---- > From: Rajinder Yadav > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 12:47:23 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: monitoring login > > how can i send out a email whenever someone logs into a linux box or even >attempts to? what are some of the methods and practices you guys use? thanks! > > -- Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 15:41:07 2010 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:41:07 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CB19CE9.9040004-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've never seen anything very humble come out from this Ubuntu group... at least they're consistent. > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 07:00:57 -0400 > From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: [TLUG]: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released > > It's official, the release is *finally* out! > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:10:10 +0100 > From: Robbie Williamson > Organization: Ubuntu > To: ubuntu-announce-nLRlyDuq1AZFpShjVBNYrg at public.gmane.org > > Some time ago a group of hyper-intelligent pan dimensional beings > decided to finally answer the great question of Life, The Universe and > Everything. To this end, a small band of these Debians built an > incredibly powerful distribution, Ubuntu. After this great computer > programme had run (a very quick 3 million minutes...or 6 years) the > answer was announced. The Ultimate answer to Life, the Universe and > Everything is...42, and in its' purest form 101010. Which suggests that > what you really need to know is 'What was the Question?'. The great > distribution kindly pointed out that what the problem really was that > no-one knew the question. Accordingly, the distribution designed a set > of successors, marked by a circle of friends...to ultimately bring Unity > to all things living...Ubuntu 10.10, to find the question to the > ultimate answer. > > And with that, the Ubuntu team is pleased to announce Ubuntu 10.10. > Codenamed "Maverick Meerkat", 10.10 continues Ubuntu's proud tradition > of integrating the latest and greatest open source technologies into a > high-quality, easy-to-use Linux distribution. > > Read more about the features of Ubuntu 10.10 in the following press > releases: > > Desktop and Netbook editions > http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntu-10.10-desktop-edition > Server edition > http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntu-10.10-server-edition > > Canonical has also launched the ?Ubuntu Server on Cloud 10? program. > Anyone will be able to try out Ubuntu 10.10 Server Edition on Amazon EC2 > for free for one hour. Visitors to the download pages will now be able > to choose to experience the ease and speed of public cloud computing and > Ubuntu. For a direct link to the trial, please go to > http://10.cloud.ubuntu.com > > Ubuntu 10.10 will be supported for 18 months on desktops, netbooks, and > servers. > > Thanks to the efforts of the global translation community, Ubuntu is > available in 37 languages. For a list of supported languages and > detailed > translation statistics for these and other languages, see: > > http://people.ubuntu.com/~dpm/ubuntu-10.10-translation-stats.html > > Ubuntu 10.10 is also the basis for new 10.10 releases of Kubuntu, > Xubuntu, Edubuntu, UbuntuStudio, and Mythbuntu: > > Kubuntu http://kubuntu.org/news/10.10-release > Xubuntu http://xubuntu.org/news/10.10-release > Edubuntu http://edubuntu.org/news/10.10-release > Mythbuntu http://mythbuntu.org/10.10/release > Ubuntu Studio https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/10.10release_notes > > To Get Ubuntu 10.10 > ------------------- > > To download Ubuntu 10.10, or obtain CDs, visit: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu > > Users of Ubuntu 10.04 LTS will be offered an automatic upgrade to 10.10 > via Update Manager. For further information about upgrading, see: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/upgrading > > As always, upgrades to the latest version of Ubuntu are entirely free of > charge. > > We recommend that all users read the release notes, which document > caveats and workarounds for known issues. They are available at: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/1010 > > Find out what's new in this release with a graphical overview: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/1010overview > > If you have a question, or if you think you may have found a bug but > aren't sure, try asking on the #ubuntu IRC channel, on the Ubuntu Users > mailing list, or on the Ubuntu forums: > > #ubuntu on irc.freenode.net > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users > http://www.ubuntuforums.org/ > > Helping Shape Ubuntu > -------------------- > > If you would like to help shape Ubuntu, take a look at the list of ways > you can participate at: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/ > > About Ubuntu > ------------ > > Ubuntu is a full-featured Linux distribution for desktops, laptops, > netbooks and servers, with a fast and easy installation and regular > releases. A tightly-integrated selection of excellent applications is > included, and an incredible variety of add-on software is just a few > clicks away. > > Professional services including support are available from Canonical and > hundreds of other companies around the world. For more information > about support, visit: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/support > > More Information > ---------------- > > You can find out more about Ubuntu and about this release on our > website: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/ > > To sign up for future Ubuntu announcements, please subscribe to Ubuntu's > very low volume announcement list at: > > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-announce > > -- > Robbie Williamson robbie-GeWIH/nMZzLQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org > Ubuntu robbiew[irc.freenode.net] > > > "You can't be lucky all the time, but you can be smart everyday" > -Mos Def > > "Arrogance is thinking you are better than everyone else, while > Confidence is knowing no one else is better than you." -Me ;) > > > -- > ubuntu-announce mailing list > ubuntu-announce-nLRlyDuq1AZFpShjVBNYrg at public.gmane.org > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-announce > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 16:03:52 2010 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:03:52 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB1E3E8.8070802@gmail.com> On 10-10-10 11:41 , john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I've never seen anything very humble come out from this Ubuntu group... > at least they're consistent. It's a Douglas Adams pastiche. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 16:30:59 2010 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:30:59 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re:starting a service on use In-Reply-To: <4CB14D21.1030703-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101008135657.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CB14D21.1030703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB1EA43.9090305@rogers.com> On 10/10/10 1:20 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On 10-10-08 09:56 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 06:52:12PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>> how do i start a service when a request comes in? >>> i don't want the service running when the system boots up. > > >> So really, if you want a service, run it all the time, unless it supports >> inetd, in which case it can handle it. > > i trying to setup a headless x11vnc server... Now we have a better idea of what kind of service you're trying to start. If you happen to have Apache running on your server, you could piggyback on the proxy mechanism. I can look up some specifics, if you're interested, but the basic idea is to configure Apache to run a script based on a certain URL. That script should start your VNC server. The start up script can then throw away the proxy connection from Apache. I'm not sure how you could stop the VNC server. Maybe another script that located the VNC server process, by knowing the portno it's using, then killing the process. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 20:54:11 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:54:11 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB227F3.4060301@gmail.com> On 10-10-10 11:41 AM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I've never seen anything very humble come out from this Ubuntu group... > at least they're consistent. if you watched the hitcher's guide to the universe you would have been cracking-up reading this. I find the ubuntu camp can look at themselves and poke fun at their work! you can watch the entire movie on youtube, its in many parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6KWnVh-JDs&feature=fvw -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 22:31:35 2010 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:31:35 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CB227F3.4060301-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> ,<4CB227F3.4060301@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I understood the references. No big deal, probably more youthful exuberance than anything else. Still, the "aren't we geniuses" attitude comes through loud and clear... yet again. But I enjoyed the video clips anyway, thanks. John. > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:54:11 -0400 > From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released > > On 10-10-10 11:41 AM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I've never seen anything very humble come out from this Ubuntu group... > > at least they're consistent. > > if you watched the hitcher's guide to the universe you would have been > cracking-up reading this. I find the ubuntu camp can look at themselves > and poke fun at their work! > > you can watch the entire movie on youtube, its in many parts: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6KWnVh-JDs&feature=fvw > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 10 23:20:23 2010 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 19:20:23 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB24A37.9050901@alteeve.com> On 10-10-10 11:41 AM, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I've never seen anything very humble come out from this Ubuntu group... > at least they're consistent. They have a distro to be proud of. Most folks who contribute, be it tech or any other field, are generally (overly?) confident in their ability. If they weren't, I wonder if they'd have taken on such a large task. -- Digimer E-Mail: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org AN!Whitepapers: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 00:02:07 2010 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 20:02:07 -0400 Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows In-Reply-To: References: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> <1286660193.6450.7.camel@aragorn> <1286661516.6450.8.camel@aragorn> <1286662198.7341.2.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <1286755327.20959.5.camel@aragorn> On Sun, 2010-10-10 at 00:36 -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Suggested approach: > > - muck about looking for a relevant setting > More mucking around in the same settings made me notice that there were some settings under System|Preferences|Sound that only worked under certain conditions. For example, I could test the speakers (Hardware tab) if "Settings were selected Device" was set to "Analog" and not "Digital". Under digital, these buttons would disappear (and so would the sound), but when I saw the buttons, I could test them and the sound came back. I take it this is a "feature" of Ubuntu. I also upgraded to 10.10. Not too many obvious changes, although I like the "Ubuntu Software Centre" (is this new, or have I just noticed this now?) Paul -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 00:31:19 2010 From: ted.leslie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 20:31:19 -0400 Subject: No sound in ubuntu 10.04 under X-Windows In-Reply-To: <1286755327.20959.5.camel@aragorn> References: <1286629375.2982.17.camel@aragorn> <1286660193.6450.7.camel@aragorn> <1286661516.6450.8.camel@aragorn> <1286662198.7341.2.camel@aragorn> <1286755327.20959.5.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: i havn't tried it yet (10.10) but the news earlier was they were supposed to be coming out with an "app store", so if what you see has product that can cost money, I am thinking thats the app store, and its new, or the integration of it to 10.10 is new. tl On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 8:02 PM, Paul King wrote: > On Sun, 2010-10-10 at 00:36 -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> Suggested approach: >> >> - muck about looking for a relevant setting >> > > More mucking around in the same settings made me notice that there were > some settings under System|Preferences|Sound that only worked under > certain conditions. For example, I could test the speakers (Hardware > tab) if "Settings were selected Device" was set to "Analog" and not > "Digital". Under digital, these buttons would disappear (and so would > the sound), but when I saw the buttons, I could test them and the sound > came back. I take it this is a "feature" of Ubuntu. > > I also upgraded to 10.10. Not too many obvious changes, although I like > the "Ubuntu Software Centre" (is this new, or have I just noticed this > now?) > > Paul > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 00:53:52 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 20:53:52 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re:starting a service on use In-Reply-To: <4CB1EA43.9090305-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101008135657.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CB14D21.1030703@gmail.com> <4CB1EA43.9090305@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CB26020.60804@gmail.com> On 10-10-10 12:30 PM, Yanni Chiu wrote: > On 10/10/10 1:20 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> On 10-10-08 09:56 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>> On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 06:52:12PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>>> how do i start a service when a request comes in? >>>> i don't want the service running when the system boots up. >> >> >>> So really, if you want a service, run it all the time, unless it >>> supports >>> inetd, in which case it can handle it. >> >> i trying to setup a headless x11vnc server... > > Now we have a better idea of what kind of service you're trying to start. > > If you happen to have Apache running on your server, you could piggyback > on the proxy mechanism. I can look up some specifics, if you're > interested, but the basic idea is to configure Apache to run a script > based on a certain URL. That script should start your VNC server. The > start up script can then throw away the proxy connection from Apache. > > I'm not sure how you could stop the VNC server. Maybe another script > that located the VNC server process, by knowing the portno it's using, > then killing the process. > i managed to get a setup that is working, i like the idea of just ssh(ing) into the box and starting x11vnc when i need it. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 05:08:47 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 01:08:47 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CB19CE9.9040004-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB29BDF.7010106@gmail.com> On 10-10-10 07:00 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > It's official, the release is *finally* out! > i've had a chance to install kubuntu x64 10.10 on my laptop running on vmware and it looks solid and runs smooth. the previous version 10.04 would hang on me during shutdown or reboot. test system my hardware (HP pavilion dv7) cpu intel i7 with 4GB of ram running on win7 kubuntu running in vmware about 1GB ram on kubuntu 10.10 i've installed all my packages, compiled a few that i needed to have a working development platform, everything went smoothly. i installed netbeans (a java hog-ware), had it running with firefox playing a music video on youtube and the performance on it was excellent, i could switch between apps, load web pages, create a simple rails app see it run and life is good. audio works fine, to get amarok working with mp3 and streaming audio you will need to do the following sudo aptitude install ubuntu-restricted-extras libxine-extracodecs there seems to be a minor bug with flash, sometimes i need to refresh the browser to get flash to work, other than this i have not noticed any other annoying quirks my current xubuntu 10.04 setup running xfce has been replaced with kubuntu 10.10 on my laptop, i am loving it! i don't know if the new version runs faster than the previous, or if kde is more solid, etc. i plan to keep 10.04 on my desktop and not upgrade yet, as i see no reason to, i just didn't like xubunut on my laptop much. i have to add this release went better then 10.04, i recall having issues with 10.04 for a while and, it took weeks for the initial bugs to get fixed before i was able to install a solid 10.04 -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 06:19:31 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 02:19:31 -0400 Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: <616284.91732.qm-tJCKuaaTlw35nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> <616284.91732.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CB2AC73.9050805@gmail.com> On 10-10-10 10:58 AM, Fernando Duran wrote: > Hi, > > I do this actually in my servers, by adding this line to /etc/profile: > > echo "`whoami` logged in at `date` from `echo $SSH_CLIENT`" | mail -s > "`hostname` login" me-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org i want something that will work from any account, even if someone creates a new account for a backdoor what i would like is a way to monitor a login even systemwide and then have a script execute to fire off an email > > Cheers, > Fernando Duran > http://www.fduran.com -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 12:10:03 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 08:10:03 -0400 Subject: Are you running Linux as your desktop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB2FE9B.5090502@rogers.com> Tyler Aviss wrote: > > Are we allowed to vote more than once if we have multiple PC's, or use > it both personally and at work? > There's a drop down list for number of computers. I selected 4. > > How about phones and mobile devices... that should add several > thousands of Android users. Linux's not just for servers or *even* the > desktop anymore, it's everywhere. :-) > Well, I've got a Google Nexus One, Nokia N800, Sharp HDTV, Samsung Blu-ray player and a couple of routers all running Linux. On the other hand, I've got one, 1, count 'em, one computer with XP installed, but it's used mostly with Linux. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 12:17:00 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 08:17:00 -0400 Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: <4CB1455B.3010202-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB3003C.1090200@rogers.com> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > how can i send out a email whenever someone logs into a linux box or > even attempts to? what are some of the methods and practices you guys > use? thanks! > You should be able to trigger it with a login script, if command promt login, or Autostart folder for desktop users. In KDE, it's ~/.kde/Autostart. You can use the mail command to send the email. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 14:06:30 2010 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:06:30 -0400 Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: <4CB2AC73.9050805-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> <616284.91732.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4CB2AC73.9050805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB319E6.2090007@ve3syb.ca> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > what i would like is a way to monitor a login even systemwide and then > have a script execute to fire off an email Just a thought... how about a PAM module that could alert you when someone tries to log in? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 03:14:42 2010 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 23:14:42 -0400 Subject: Adding xorg from unstable to existing stable - Debian Message-ID: <471BBD63-18B5-4638-8BD4-1DCE2CAAD446@sarg.ryerson.ca> Hi all Debian experts, I have determined the problem with my graphics is that the xorg drivers in lenny (Debian stable) are version 1.4.2 from Xorg and the drivers in 1.4.2 don't come close to supporting my hardware but I know for sure that the 2.12.0 drivers (which are in unstable) definitely do. The page: http://packages.qa.debian.org/x/xserver-xorg-video- intel.html says that 2.12.0 is in unstable and 2.3.2-2+lenny8 is in stable. 2.3.2 might solve my problem, but I just did an apt-get update and upgrade, but it didn't go near updating xorg (it only did 6 packages). How would I get that 2.3.2-2+lenny8 version to see if it works? If not, how can I install a subset of packages from unstable without moving completely to unstable? Thanks ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 15:17:12 2010 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:17:12 -0400 Subject: Adding xorg from unstable to existing stable - Debian In-Reply-To: <471BBD63-18B5-4638-8BD4-1DCE2CAAD446-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <471BBD63-18B5-4638-8BD4-1DCE2CAAD446@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4CB32A78.9030000@utoronto.ca> On 10/10/2010 11:14 PM, Dave Mason wrote: > Hi all Debian experts, > > I have determined the problem with my graphics is that the xorg drivers > in lenny (Debian stable) are version 1.4.2 from Xorg and the drivers in > 1.4.2 don't come close to supporting my hardware but I know for sure > that the 2.12.0 drivers (which are in unstable) definitely do. > > The page: http://packages.qa.debian.org/x/xserver-xorg-video-intel.html > says that 2.12.0 is in unstable and 2.3.2-2+lenny8 is in stable. 2.3.2 > might solve my problem, but I just did an apt-get update and upgrade, > but it didn't go near updating xorg (it only did 6 packages). > > How would I get that 2.3.2-2+lenny8 version to see if it works? If not, > how can I install a subset of packages from unstable without moving > completely to unstable? I wouldn't go from Lenny directly to Sid, take a look at Xorg 1.7.7 in Squeeze (testing) first, especially since Squeeze has been frozen for a while in preparation for release as stable. Also, can you post the output of "dpkg --status xserver-xorg-video-intel"? 2.3.2 should already be installed. If it isn't, that's odd. If it is, try using the version from Squeeze, 2.9.1. To use a mix of packages from stable/testing/unstable, look into apt pinning. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 15:18:07 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:18:07 -0400 Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: <4CB319E6.2090007-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> <616284.91732.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4CB2AC73.9050805@gmail.com> <4CB319E6.2090007@ve3syb.ca> Message-ID: <4CB32AAF.2030802@gmail.com> On 10-10-11 10:06 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote: > Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> what i would like is a way to monitor a login even systemwide and then >> have a script execute to fire off an email > > Just a thought... how about a PAM module that could alert you when > someone tries to log in? > -- looks like an idea, my initial perception is that it looks a bit more involved. i don't want to write an authentication system, i just want to listen to events. maybe there is a simple way to so this with pam? -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 16:03:01 2010 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:03:01 -0400 Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: <4CB2AC73.9050805-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> <616284.91732.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4CB2AC73.9050805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB33535.6030505@utoronto.ca> On 10/11/2010 02:19 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On 10-10-10 10:58 AM, Fernando Duran wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I do this actually in my servers, by adding this line to /etc/profile: >> >> echo "`whoami` logged in at `date` from `echo $SSH_CLIENT`" | mail -s >> "`hostname` login" me-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > > i want something that will work from any account, even if someone > creates a new account for a backdoor > > what i would like is a way to monitor a login even systemwide and then > have a script execute to fire off an email That's exactly what Fernando's line does. Since /etc/profile is read by all valid login shells, it effectively works for any account. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 16:36:57 2010 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 12:36:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: <4CB33535.6030505-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> <616284.91732.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4CB2AC73.9050805@gmail.com> <4CB33535.6030505@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 10/11/2010 02:19 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> On 10-10-10 10:58 AM, Fernando Duran wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I do this actually in my servers, by adding this line to /etc/profile: >>> >>> echo "`whoami` logged in at `date` from `echo $SSH_CLIENT`" | mail -s >>> "`hostname` login" me-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org >> >> i want something that will work from any account, even if someone >> creates a new account for a backdoor >> >> what i would like is a way to monitor a login even systemwide and then >> have a script execute to fire off an email > > That's exactly what Fernando's line does. Since /etc/profile is read by > all valid login shells, it effectively works for any account. It is not read by [t]csh. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 11 17:52:30 2010 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> <616284.91732.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4CB2AC73.9050805@gmail.com> <4CB33535.6030505@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <367396.52492.qm@web65405.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi, If someone can create a new user account then the system is rooted and we got bigger problems. I guess other (non-Bash) shells can be disabled in the server and changes in /etc/passwd monitored (to detect new users) so that this loophole that Chris mentions is plugged (but there may be other workarounds). In any case you can also install 'logwatch' or similar, it can be configured to send a daily email with a summary of activities like shell logins and system status like disk space etc. This is a quick and easy solution (apt-get or yum install logwatch). Or if you just want the email when there's a login, probably you can use 'inotify' and trigger the email when it detects a change in the /var/log/wtmp (login) log file, or perhaps it's easier to do with 'monit' (I haven't tried either option for this case). Also note that this 'login warning' won't notify you when there's a security breach in an application (for example a web app). So while it's an easy-to-do, nice-to-have feature I wouldn't make it a critical part of a system's security. Cheers, --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com ----- Original Message ---- > From: Chris F.A. Johnson > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 12:36:57 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: monitoring login > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Jamon Camisso wrote: > > > On 10/11/2010 02:19 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >> On 10-10-10 10:58 AM, Fernando Duran wrote: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I do this actually in my servers, by adding this line to /etc/profile: > >>> > >>> echo "`whoami` logged in at `date` from `echo $SSH_CLIENT`" | mail -s > >>> "`hostname` login" me-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org > >> > >> i want something that will work from any account, even if someone > >> creates a new account for a backdoor > >> > >> what i would like is a way to monitor a login even systemwide and then > >> have a script execute to fire off an email > > > > That's exactly what Fernando's line does. Since /etc/profile is read by > > all valid login shells, it effectively works for any account. > > It is not read by [t]csh. > > -- Chris F.A. Johnson, > Author: > Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) > Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 12 00:45:24 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 20:45:24 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [u-u] Unix Unanimous meeting - Wed 13 Oct 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Unix Unanimous Webmaster Date: Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 12:01 AM Subject: [u-u] Unix Unanimous meeting - Wed 13 Oct 2010 To: u-u-nUbHFpetmNumKAeH2fHhIti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org The next meeting of Unix Unanimous will be held at 6:45 pm on Wednesday 13 October 2010, in room BA 2179 on the 2nd floor of the the Bahen Centre for Information Technology at 40 St. George Street, on the University of Toronto campus. Unix Unanimous is an informal gathering of people interested in Unix and related topics. There are no fees or membership requirements, and the meeting is open to all. Participants typically include Unix professionals, students, and hobbyists. This message will be repeated on the Monday before the meeting. If there are any items for the agenda, email u-u-owner-nUbHFpetmNumKAeH2fHhIti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org before then. The meeting is always held on the second Wednesday of each month. Special Announcements: A mailing list has been set up for this announcement. If you wish to receive notification via email, go to the web page https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u/ in order to subscribe yourself. A map of the area can be found at http://unixunanimous.org where this message is repeated, and will always contain the correct location and time of the next meeting. _______________________________________________ u-u mailing list u-u-sb41XHKw7bdvuSlQZN9BUtrUbErFZevf at public.gmane.org https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 12 03:52:24 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:52:24 -0400 Subject: monitoring login In-Reply-To: <367396.52492.qm-Tm7EnexblBL5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB1455B.3010202@gmail.com> <616284.91732.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4CB2AC73.9050805@gmail.com> <4CB33535.6030505@utoronto.ca> <367396.52492.qm@web65405.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CB3DB78.1040002@gmail.com> On 10-10-11 01:52 PM, Fernando Duran wrote: > Hi, > > If someone can create a new user account then the system is rooted and we got > bigger problems. I guess other (non-Bash) shells can be disabled in the server > and changes in /etc/passwd monitored (to detect new users) so that this loophole > that Chris mentions is plugged (but there may be other workarounds). > > In any case you can also install 'logwatch' or similar, it can be configured to > send a daily email with a summary of activities like shell logins and system > status like disk space etc. This is a quick and easy solution (apt-get or yum > install logwatch). > > Or if you just want the email when there's a login, probably you can use > 'inotify' and trigger the email when it detects a change in the /var/log/wtmp > (login) log file, or perhaps it's easier to do with 'monit' (I haven't tried > either option for this case). > > Also note that this 'login warning' won't notify you when there's a security > breach in an application (for example a web app). So while it's an easy-to-do, > nice-to-have feature I wouldn't make it a critical part of a system's security. > > Cheers, > --------------------- > Fernando Duran > http://www.fduran.com > > > > ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Chris F.A. Johnson >> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >> Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 12:36:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: monitoring login >> >> On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> >>> On 10/11/2010 02:19 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>>> On 10-10-10 10:58 AM, Fernando Duran wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I do this actually in my servers, by adding this line to /etc/profile: >>>>> >>>>> echo "`whoami` logged in at `date` from `echo $SSH_CLIENT`" | mail -s >>>>> "`hostname` login" me-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org >>>> >>>> i want something that will work from any account, even if someone >>>> creates a new account for a backdoor >>>> >>>> what i would like is a way to monitor a login even systemwide and then >>>> have a script execute to fire off an email >>> >>> That's exactly what Fernando's line does. Since /etc/profile is read by >>> all valid login shells, it effectively works for any account. >> >> It is not read by [t]csh. >> >> -- Chris F.A. Johnson, >> Author: >> Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) >> Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) >> -- both inotify and monit look exactly like the the tools I can use to do what I want! this has got me thinking about a whole array of monitoring tools =P and once I can wrap my noodle brain around it I'm going to hack together a ruby script and possibly a ruby plugin. it would be easy to extend an idea with a web-interface, if the interval are large enough one can throw stats into a database and monitor for trends, meta changes, and do data (intrusion) mining! for example, if part of the system is off-limits for write access due to a policy and there is write activity this could be recovered later from a (activity) database as a rudimentary form of system forensic and it would help to track down files and areas that may have been compromised. one of the things I've been playing with is twitter, so one can get realtime tweet alerts without the need to have a mail server setup to send out mail, etc. all you need is REST access to the web via http get/post this is cool enough to try just for the fun of it =) we'll i started to dig around into this a bit and there seems to be a GOD monitoring tool for the Ruby community that makes a lazy hacker's life easy, if anyone is interested in knowing even for the sake of recommending a solution to others, here are some links: http://god.rubyforge.org/ http://thewebfellas.com/blog/2008/2/12/a-simple-faith-monitoring-by-god here is also a good write up on using inotify in C for those who love to compile, link and work with makefiles =P http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8478 -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 12 15:02:40 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CB29BDF.7010106-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB29BDF.7010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Rajinder Yadav | i plan to keep 10.04 on my desktop and not upgrade yet, as i | see no reason to, i just didn't like xubunut on my laptop much. 10.04 has one important advantage over 10.10: 10.04 is LTS (Long Term Support). Thanks for your review of 10.10. So far, LTS is one of my main reasons for using Ubuntu. 10.04 LTS is so much fresher than CentOS yet has a longer horizon than Fedora. So I often consider 10.04 for machines that I don't want to fuss with. It may well be that Debian is a better choice. I don't have an intuitive understanding of what versions to run for what tasks and how to mix and match between them (eg. Dave Mason's question last night). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 12 15:32:13 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:32:13 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CB227F3.4060301-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB227F3.4060301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101012153213.GX12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 04:54:11PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > if you watched the hitcher's guide to the universe you would have been > cracking-up reading this. I find the ubuntu camp can look at themselves > and poke fun at their work! I have seen the movie, the tv shows, heard the radio shows and read the books. I did not find Ubuntu's release comments at all funny. I think they have completely missed the point. What does 42 = 101010 have to do with ubuntu 10.10? It doens't even have the same digits. Overall a very ill conceived and not well thought out rambling. > you can watch the entire movie on youtube, its in many parts: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6KWnVh-JDs&feature=fvw -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 12 16:01:25 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:01:25 -0400 Subject: Adding xorg from unstable to existing stable - Debian In-Reply-To: <471BBD63-18B5-4638-8BD4-1DCE2CAAD446-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <471BBD63-18B5-4638-8BD4-1DCE2CAAD446@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20101012160125.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 11:14:42PM -0400, Dave Mason wrote: > I have determined the problem with my graphics is that the xorg drivers > in lenny (Debian stable) are version 1.4.2 from Xorg and the drivers in > 1.4.2 don't come close to supporting my hardware but I know for sure that > the 2.12.0 drivers (which are in unstable) definitely do. > > The page: http://packages.qa.debian.org/x/xserver-xorg-video-intel.html > says that 2.12.0 is in unstable and 2.3.2-2+lenny8 is in stable. 2.3.2 > might solve my problem, but I just did an apt-get update and upgrade, but > it didn't go near updating xorg (it only did 6 packages). The version of xorg is not the same as the version of xserver-xorg-video-intel. xorg is modular and the version of xorg is not the same as the version of the drivers. > How would I get that 2.3.2-2+lenny8 version to see if it works? If not, > how can I install a subset of packages from unstable without moving > completely to unstable? Given you would have to pull in a new libc6, probably new udev which requires a new kernel (minimum 2.6.27 for the current udev version), the answer is that you can't. Now if backports.debian.org happens to have built it for stable, then you could use that. Unfortunately, they have not. So you have the choices: Use vesa Upgrade to testing instead (which has 2.9.1) Upgrade to unstable instead (which has 2.12.0) Upgrade to unstable instead and grab xserver-xorg-video-intel from experimental (which has 2.13.0) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 12 17:17:07 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:17:07 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <20101012153213.GX12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB227F3.4060301@gmail.com> <20101012153213.GX12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 04:54:11PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > What does 42 = 101010 have to do with ubuntu 10.10? ?It doens't even > have the same digits. ?Overall a very ill conceived and not well thought > out rambling. The release date was 10/10/10, so 101010 is binary 42, rather witty if I say so myself =P Kind Regards, Rajinder -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 12 17:31:47 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:31:47 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <20101012153213.GX12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB227F3.4060301@gmail.com> <20101012153213.GX12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 04:54:11PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> if you watched the hitcher's guide to the universe you would have been >> cracking-up reading this. I find the ubuntu camp can look at themselves >> and poke fun at their work! > > I have seen the movie, the tv shows, heard the radio shows and read > the books. ?I did not find Ubuntu's release comments at all funny. > I think they have completely missed the point. > > What does 42 = 101010 have to do with ubuntu 10.10? ?It doens't even > have the same digits. ?Overall a very ill conceived and not well thought > out rambling. 101010 binary = 42 decimal I found it much more entertaining that 110010111001001010100100111010011 is a palindromic prime. Of course, in the HHGTTG frame, it would be true to say that, in base 13, 9 times 6 = 42. Those that want to regard the Ubuntu folk as annoying gits will find the whole release thing to be annoying. There are BSD folk that think roughly the same way about Linus Torvalds, and there's not a strong counterargument to be made. Sadly, no entertaining prime numbers there :-). -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 12 17:45:02 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:45:02 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB29BDF.7010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 11:02 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Rajinder Yadav > > | ?i plan to keep 10.04 on my desktop and not upgrade yet, as i > | see no reason to, i just didn't like xubunut on my laptop much. > > 10.04 has one important advantage over 10.10: 10.04 is LTS (Long Term > Support). > > Thanks for your review of 10.10. ?So far, LTS is one of my main > reasons for using Ubuntu. ?10.04 LTS is so much fresher than CentOS > yet has a longer horizon than Fedora. ?So I often consider 10.04 for > machines that I don't want to fuss with. > > It may well be that Debian is a better choice. ?I don't have an > intuitive understanding of what versions to run for what tasks and how > to mix and match between them (eg. Dave Mason's question last night). I'm happy with 10.04 on my desktop so I'll stick with till one more release. I have Debian 5.0 on my spare box that I am using as a subversion server as well as a web server for my Ruby on Rails hosting and testing environment. It's running on a AMD 1000 w/ 500MB of ram. It's pretty much the same thing as the Ubuntu server, other than the philosophy of what open source truly means. So I got one foot in the Debian camp and other in the Ubuntu camp! -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | http://DevMentor.org | Do Good! - Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 12 20:26:11 2010 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:26:11 -0400 Subject: ubuntu repository question Message-ID: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram@295.ca> I have recently setup a Linode to help expand the reach of my online Linux programming course. I chose to install the Ubuntu Lucid on my Linode partition. The Linode Ubuntu image is very basic and doesn't include a lot of the build tools I'll need for my course. Unfortunately, I'm an Ubuntu novice, even though I'm an experienced Linux developer. The Ubuntu repository online search capability isn't all that helpful. It is more a catalog of available stuff, but doesn't put that stuff in context. Is there an easy way to "discover" what packages I would need to get tools like GCC, make, Tcl/Tk etc? or does one have to go by trial and error? Thanks in advance for your response. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 02:22:20 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:22:20 -0400 Subject: ubuntu repository question In-Reply-To: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: Commonly, if you can identify what you want installed, you could run apt-get install [list of packages] And that would identify all the dependencies. So, apt-get install gcc make tcl8.5 tk8.5 The challenge, such as it is comes in identifying which packages you want. The package management system should cope quite well with figuring out the dependencies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 05:17:28 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 01:17:28 -0400 Subject: Audio and slides of the Amazon EC2 talk Message-ID: I've just uploaded the audio for tonight's Amazon EC2 talk in MP3 and Ogg. You can get it at: http://mondofzero.com/audio/TLUG-EC2-Talk.mp3 http://mondofzero.com/audio/TLUG-EC2-Talk.ogg The presentation is available at Prezi: http://prezi.com/lfnvw1g1h-_v/amazon-aws/ By the way, I mistakenly mentioned RackSpace when I really meant RightScale (http://rightscale.com) as the hosting provider that uses EC2 as the underlying server infrastructure. Thanks to everyone that showed up! - Fabio -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 10:20:36 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:20:36 -0400 Subject: ubuntu repository question In-Reply-To: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <4CB587F4.5050108@gmail.com> On 10-10-12 04:26 PM, bob 295 wrote: > I have recently setup a Linode to help expand the reach of my online Linux > programming course. > > I chose to install the Ubuntu Lucid on my Linode partition. The Linode > Ubuntu image is very basic and doesn't include a lot of the build tools I'll > need for my course. Unfortunately, I'm an Ubuntu novice, even though I'm > an experienced Linux developer. > > The Ubuntu repository online search capability isn't all that helpful. It is > more a catalog of available stuff, but doesn't put that stuff in context. > > Is there an easy way to "discover" what packages I would need to get tools > like GCC, make, Tcl/Tk etc? or does one have to go by trial and error? > > Thanks in advance for your response. > > bob > -- to identify packages if you have a general name use: sudo aptitiude search you will need to install the following for the basic gcc environment sudo aptitude install build-essential make -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 10:22:53 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:22:53 -0400 Subject: ubuntu repository question In-Reply-To: <4CB587F4.5050108-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram@295.ca> <4CB587F4.5050108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB5887D.1050904@gmail.com> On 10-10-13 06:20 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On 10-10-12 04:26 PM, bob 295 wrote: >> I have recently setup a Linode to help expand the reach of my online >> Linux >> programming course. >> >> I chose to install the Ubuntu Lucid on my Linode partition. The Linode >> Ubuntu image is very basic and doesn't include a lot of the build >> tools I'll >> need for my course. Unfortunately, I'm an Ubuntu novice, even though I'm >> an experienced Linux developer. >> >> The Ubuntu repository online search capability isn't all that helpful. >> It is >> more a catalog of available stuff, but doesn't put that stuff in context. >> >> Is there an easy way to "discover" what packages I would need to get >> tools >> like GCC, make, Tcl/Tk etc? or does one have to go by trial and error? >> >> Thanks in advance for your response. >> >> bob >> -- > > to identify packages if you have a general name use: > > sudo aptitiude search > > you will need to install the following for the basic gcc environment > > sudo aptitude install build-essential make > i should have said this will install the gnu tool chain -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 14:12:03 2010 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 07:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ubuntu repository question In-Reply-To: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <194844.96477.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hello, A couple of tips: 1) To look for packages related to application 'app': $ sudo apt-cache search app (or with aptitude as well) When trying to install a package 'apt' will prompt if you want to install the dependent packages it found. 2) To list available packages versions within the distro you can use apt-show-versions: $ sudo apt-get install apt-show-versions For example to show available and installed package gcc: $ sudo apt-show-versions -p gcc Cheers, --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com ----- Original Message ---- > From: bob 295 > To: TLUG > Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 4:26:11 PM > Subject: [TLUG]: ubuntu repository question > > I have recently setup a Linode to help expand the reach of my online Linux > programming course. > > I chose to install the Ubuntu Lucid on my Linode partition. The Linode > Ubuntu image is very basic and doesn't include a lot of the build tools I'll > need for my course. Unfortunately, I'm an Ubuntu novice, even though I'm > an experienced Linux developer. > > The Ubuntu repository online search capability isn't all that helpful. It is > > more a catalog of available stuff, but doesn't put that stuff in context. > > Is there an easy way to "discover" what packages I would need to get tools > like GCC, make, Tcl/Tk etc? or does one have to go by trial and error? > > Thanks in advance for your response. > > bob > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 14:26:44 2010 From: avolkov-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Volkov) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:26:44 -0400 Subject: ubuntu repository question In-Reply-To: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <1286980004.2553.1.camel@alex-laptop.vlk.int> $apt-cache pkgnames | grep $sudo apt-get install apt-file $apt-file update $apt-file search On Tue, 2010-10-12 at 16:26 -0400, bob 295 wrote: > I have recently setup a Linode to help expand the reach of my online Linux > programming course. > > I chose to install the Ubuntu Lucid on my Linode partition. The Linode > Ubuntu image is very basic and doesn't include a lot of the build tools I'll > need for my course. Unfortunately, I'm an Ubuntu novice, even though I'm > an experienced Linux developer. > > The Ubuntu repository online search capability isn't all that helpful. It is > more a catalog of available stuff, but doesn't put that stuff in context. > > Is there an easy way to "discover" what packages I would need to get tools > like GCC, make, Tcl/Tk etc? or does one have to go by trial and error? > > Thanks in advance for your response. > > bob > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 14:52:04 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:52:04 -0400 Subject: ubuntu repository question In-Reply-To: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <20101013145204.GZ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 04:26:11PM -0400, bob 295 wrote: > I have recently setup a Linode to help expand the reach of my online Linux > programming course. > > I chose to install the Ubuntu Lucid on my Linode partition. The Linode > Ubuntu image is very basic and doesn't include a lot of the build tools I'll > need for my course. Unfortunately, I'm an Ubuntu novice, even though I'm > an experienced Linux developer. > > The Ubuntu repository online search capability isn't all that helpful. It is > more a catalog of available stuff, but doesn't put that stuff in context. > > Is there an easy way to "discover" what packages I would need to get tools > like GCC, make, Tcl/Tk etc? or does one have to go by trial and error? > > Thanks in advance for your response. Well on debian I would do this: apt-get install build-essential Also 'apt-cache search keywords' is handy for finding packages. synaptic is a gui version if you think that's better. To get the stuff needed to build a specific package you can do: apt-get build-dep packagename -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 16:02:27 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:02:27 -0400 Subject: MP Letter. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At last evening's GTALug meeting people heard about the GTALug political action committee, a group that I have attending. Last month I sent the following letter to my member of parliament via snail mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------- Colin McGregor 151 Roehampton Ave. Toronto, Ontario M4P 1P9 September 22nd, 2010 Dr. Carolyn Bennett Member of Parliament for St. Paul's House of Commons Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 Dear Dr. Bennett, Recently I was speaking with a number of people associated with the information technology industry about the potential devastating impact of the digital right management provisions in Bill C-32. What I would like to know is what your position and that of the Liberal Party of Canada regarding Bill C-32. Thank you. Sincerely, Colin McGregor ---------------------------------------------------------------- So far I have not heard anything back from Dr. Bennett, but I will report back on what (if anything) I do hear from her. If anyone else wants to send a similar letter to their member of parliament, you can find the name, address and party affiliation of your MP here: http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/index.asp?language=E . Remember that you do NOT need to put a stamp on letters being sent to your member of parliament. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 22:16:00 2010 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:16:00 -0400 Subject: how to solve Ubuntu setlocale() warning Message-ID: <201010131816.02158.icanprogram@295.ca> Thanks for all the responses to my Ubuntu repository question. I've managed to get a system configured with all the necessary tools now. When I run any BASH script I get a setlocale() warning. It doesn't seem to affect the script but I'd like to see if I can remove it. Here is a snip of the warning: =========== begin snip1 ============ /bin/bash: warning: setlocale: LC_ALL: cannot change locale (en_US) hi bob =========== end snip 1 ============= I poked around the Net. Some suggested running "dpkg-reconfigure locale". Did that and nothing much changed. Here is the response I get when I run "locale" on the system: =========== begin snip2 ============= locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory LANG=en_US LC_CTYPE="en_US" LC_NUMERIC="en_US" LC_TIME="en_US" LC_COLLATE="en_US" LC_MONETARY="en_US" LC_MESSAGES="en_US" LC_PAPER="en_US" LC_NAME="en_US" LC_ADDRESS="en_US" LC_TELEPHONE="en_US" LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US" LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US" LC_ALL=en_US =========== end snip2 ============== Any suggestions? Thanks again in advance for your help. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 13 22:59:29 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:59:29 -0400 Subject: how to solve Ubuntu setlocale() warning In-Reply-To: <201010131816.02158.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201010131816.02158.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <20101013225929.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 06:16:00PM -0400, bob 295 wrote: > Thanks for all the responses to my Ubuntu repository question. I've managed > to get a system configured with all the necessary tools now. > > When I run any BASH script I get a setlocale() warning. It doesn't seem to > affect the script but I'd like to see if I can remove it. Here is a snip of > the warning: > > =========== begin snip1 ============ > /bin/bash: warning: setlocale: LC_ALL: cannot change locale (en_US) > hi bob > =========== end snip 1 ============= > > I poked around the Net. Some suggested running "dpkg-reconfigure locale". > Did that and nothing much changed. Here is the response I get when I run > "locale" on the system: And which locales did you select when you reconfigured locales (not locale)? I tend to enable en_CA and en_US myself (the UTF8 versions at least). > =========== begin snip2 ============= > locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory > locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory > locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory > LANG=en_US > LC_CTYPE="en_US" > LC_NUMERIC="en_US" > LC_TIME="en_US" > LC_COLLATE="en_US" > LC_MONETARY="en_US" > LC_MESSAGES="en_US" > LC_PAPER="en_US" > LC_NAME="en_US" > LC_ADDRESS="en_US" > LC_TELEPHONE="en_US" > LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US" > LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US" > LC_ALL=en_US > > =========== end snip2 ============== > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks again in advance for your help. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andmalc-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 03:46:28 2010 From: andmalc-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 23:46:28 -0400 Subject: ubuntu repository question In-Reply-To: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201010121626.11569.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:26 PM, bob 295 wrote: ... > Is there an easy way to "discover" what packages I would need to get tools > like GCC, ?make, ?Tcl/Tk etc? ?or does one have to go by trial and error? > The suggestion above to install build-essential is correct. A good way to browse packages is to run aptitude in full screen (i.e. curses) mode. Just run: 'sudo aptitude'. Read the User Manual from Help at the top left. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 06:03:37 2010 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 02:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SanDisk mp3 player not seen Message-ID: Does anyone know why this SanDisk mp3 player is not showing up on my Mandriva system? It's a 1GB SanDisk Clip: . I followed the instructions at , but nothing works. I also have an Onyx player which works without any problem. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 11:04:22 2010 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:04:22 -0400 Subject: SanDisk mp3 player not seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB6E3B6.9010101@gmail.com> On 10-10-14 02:03 , Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > Does anyone know why this SanDisk mp3 player is not showing up on > my Mandriva system? Sandisk made two versions of the Sansa; the regular and the 'R' (Rhapsody) models. The latter use some weird proprietary MS thing, the former are just standard USB storage. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 13:30:18 2010 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:30:18 -0400 Subject: how to solve Ubuntu setlocale() warning In-Reply-To: <20101013225929.GA12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <201010131816.02158.icanprogram@295.ca> <20101013225929.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <201010140930.19862.icanprogram@295.ca> On Wednesday 13 October 2010 06:59 pm, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 06:16:00PM -0400, bob 295 wrote: > > Thanks for all the responses to my Ubuntu repository question. I've > > managed to get a system configured with all the necessary tools now. > > > > When I run any BASH script I get a setlocale() warning. It doesn't seem > > to affect the script but I'd like to see if I can remove it. Here is a > > snip of the warning: > > > > =========== begin snip1 ============ > > /bin/bash: warning: setlocale: LC_ALL: cannot change locale (en_US) > > hi bob > > =========== end snip 1 ============= > > > > I poked around the Net. Some suggested running "dpkg-reconfigure > > locale". Did that and nothing much changed. Here is the response I get > > when I run "locale" on the system: > > And which locales did you select when you reconfigured locales (not > locale)? > > I tend to enable en_CA and en_US myself (the UTF8 versions at least). > > > =========== begin snip2 ============= > > locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory > > locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or > > directory locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or > > directory LANG=en_US > > LC_CTYPE="en_US" > > LC_NUMERIC="en_US" > > LC_TIME="en_US" > > LC_COLLATE="en_US" > > LC_MONETARY="en_US" > > LC_MESSAGES="en_US" > > LC_PAPER="en_US" > > LC_NAME="en_US" > > LC_ADDRESS="en_US" > > LC_TELEPHONE="en_US" > > LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US" > > LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US" > > LC_ALL=en_US > > > > =========== end snip2 ============== > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > Thanks again in advance for your help. Here is what I get when I run dpkg-reconfigure locales ======= begin snip ============= perl: warning: Setting locale failed. perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings: LANGUAGE = (unset), LC_ALL = "en_US", LANG = "en_US" are supported and installed on your system. perl: warning: Falling back to the standard locale ("C"). locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory /bin/bash: warning: setlocale: LC_ALL: cannot change locale (en_US) Generating locales... en_AG.UTF-8... up-to-date en_AU.UTF-8... up-to-date en_BW.UTF-8... up-to-date en_CA.UTF-8... up-to-date en_DK.UTF-8... up-to-date en_GB.UTF-8... up-to-date en_HK.UTF-8... up-to-date en_IE.UTF-8... up-to-date en_IN.UTF-8... up-to-date en_NG.UTF-8... up-to-date en_NZ.UTF-8... up-to-date en_PH.UTF-8... up-to-date en_SG.UTF-8... up-to-date en_US.UTF-8... up-to-date en_ZA.UTF-8... up-to-date en_ZW.UTF-8... up-to-date Generation complete. ====== end snip ========= This is an Ubuntu system and if I understand things it won't prompt me for locales like it does on a true Debian system. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 13:51:22 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:51:22 -0400 Subject: how to solve Ubuntu setlocale() warning In-Reply-To: <201010140930.19862.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201010131816.02158.icanprogram@295.ca> <20101013225929.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <201010140930.19862.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <20101014135122.GB12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 09:30:18AM -0400, bob 295 wrote: > Here is what I get when I run dpkg-reconfigure locales > > ======= begin snip ============= > perl: warning: Setting locale failed. > perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings: > LANGUAGE = (unset), > LC_ALL = "en_US", > LANG = "en_US" > are supported and installed on your system. > perl: warning: Falling back to the standard locale ("C"). > locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory > locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory > locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory > /bin/bash: warning: setlocale: LC_ALL: cannot change locale (en_US) > Generating locales... > en_AG.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_AU.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_BW.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_CA.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_DK.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_GB.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_HK.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_IE.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_IN.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_NG.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_NZ.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_PH.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_SG.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_US.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_ZA.UTF-8... up-to-date > en_ZW.UTF-8... up-to-date > Generation complete. > > ====== end snip ========= > > This is an Ubuntu system and if I understand things it won't prompt me for > locales like it does on a true Debian system. Well it has en_US generated, so that should be OK. You can probably make it prompt by changing the priority. I think it is dpkg-reconfigure -p low locales But that doesn't appear to be the issue. No idea why it says it can't use locale en_US when it clearly has that locale generated. Unless something is broken and makes it think it can't use the .UTF8 version. You could try setting LC_ALL and LANG to en_US.UTF8 and see if that helps. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 13:53:17 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:53:17 -0400 Subject: SanDisk mp3 player not seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101014135317.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 02:03:37AM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > Does anyone know why this SanDisk mp3 player is not showing up on > my Mandriva system? > > It's a 1GB SanDisk Clip: . > > I followed the instructions at > , but nothing > works. > > I also have an Onyx player which works without any problem. You did follow those instructions and actually change the USB mode to MSC rather than MTP or whatever microsoft's method is? What does lsusb show? What does dmesg say after you plug it in? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 14:19:11 2010 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:19:11 -0400 Subject: how to solve Ubuntu setlocale() warning In-Reply-To: <20101014135122.GB12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <201010131816.02158.icanprogram@295.ca> <201010140930.19862.icanprogram@295.ca> <20101014135122.GB12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <201010141019.12401.icanprogram@295.ca> On Thursday 14 October 2010 09:51 am, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 09:30:18AM -0400, bob 295 wrote: > > Here is what I get when I run dpkg-reconfigure locales > > > > ======= begin snip ============= > > perl: warning: Setting locale failed. > > perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings: > > LANGUAGE = (unset), > > LC_ALL = "en_US", > > LANG = "en_US" > > are supported and installed on your system. > > perl: warning: Falling back to the standard locale ("C"). > > locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory > > locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or > > directory locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or > > directory /bin/bash: warning: setlocale: LC_ALL: cannot change locale > > (en_US) Generating locales... > > en_AG.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_AU.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_BW.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_CA.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_DK.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_GB.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_HK.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_IE.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_IN.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_NG.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_NZ.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_PH.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_SG.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_US.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_ZA.UTF-8... up-to-date > > en_ZW.UTF-8... up-to-date > > Generation complete. > > > > ====== end snip ========= > > > > This is an Ubuntu system and if I understand things it won't prompt me > > for locales like it does on a true Debian system. > > Well it has en_US generated, so that should be OK. > > You can probably make it prompt by changing the priority. > > I think it is dpkg-reconfigure -p low locales > > But that doesn't appear to be the issue. > > No idea why it says it can't use locale en_US when it clearly has that > locale generated. Unless something is broken and makes it think it > can't use the .UTF8 version. > > You could try setting LC_ALL and LANG to en_US.UTF8 and see if that helps. If I type export LC_ALL="en_US.UTF-8" the warning disappears !!! Didn't change the LANG environment variable. Now the "locale" command also runs without warnings. Is there a mechanism to create a locale alias for en_US? or do I have to add the line LC_ALL="en_US.UTF-8" to /etc/default/locale as some on the Net are suggesting for an Ubuntu system. Just curious do you know where LC_ALL is defined on an Ubuntu system? I did some cursory grep's in /etc and in my hidden files and it didn't come up. Thanks in advance for all your help. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 14:58:30 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:58:30 -0400 Subject: how to solve Ubuntu setlocale() warning In-Reply-To: <201010141019.12401.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <201010131816.02158.icanprogram@295.ca> <201010140930.19862.icanprogram@295.ca> <20101014135122.GB12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <201010141019.12401.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <20101014145830.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 10:19:11AM -0400, bob 295 wrote: > If I type > > export LC_ALL="en_US.UTF-8" > > the warning disappears !!! Didn't change the LANG environment variable. > Now the "locale" command also runs without warnings. > > Is there a mechanism to create a locale alias for en_US? or do I have to add > the line > > LC_ALL="en_US.UTF-8" > > to > > /etc/default/locale > > as some on the Net are suggesting for an Ubuntu system. > > Just curious do you know where LC_ALL is defined on an Ubuntu system? I did > some cursory grep's in /etc and in my hidden files and it didn't come up. > > Thanks in advance for all your help. On debian, the default is set when you answer the dpkg-reconfigure locales questions. But you may have to run it with the right priority to get the question at all. Personally I use en_CA.UTF8. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 16:26:20 2010 From: teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:26:20 -0400 Subject: shellinabox Message-ID: <4CB72F2C.1030302@gmail.com> I am sure many TLUG have portforwarded 22 NAT SSHv2 to a physical or virtual server. But to get a remote shell with just a browser was sometimes tricky. You had to use WebMin/SSHv2 java module or use a laptop with SSH client. In many remote locations, this was not easy or possible. I found this be another option. I used one of the TurnKey Linux distros. http://www.turnkeylinux.org/ I like these distros because they seem well made. Fast+Secure+Small footprint. I installed TurnKey on my ESXI server. You can install TurnKey on a virtual or physical box. Portforward to your TurnKey Linux distro 12320/ShellinaBox 12321/Webmin Then your set. You got a shell wherever you got a browser. Browse to your server remotely at http://a.b.c.d:12320 and login! It is SSL, so it seems pretty secured. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 17:01:10 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SanDisk mp3 player not seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Chris F.A. Johnson | It's a 1GB SanDisk Clip: . | | I followed the instructions at | , but nothing | works. Those instructions are for the e200 series. You have a Sansa Clip of some kind (there are several versions, the current being the Clip+). Judging from the fact that rockbox has stable ports for the e200 series and unstable ones for the Clip v2 and Clip+, they are surely different in guts. That does not mean that the Linux support is different, but it means that it could be. There are two "standard" protocols for USB Digital Audio Players: UMS (USB Mass Storage -- looks like flash memory; well supported) aka MSC (usb Mass Storage Class) and MTP (Microsoft's favoured Media Transport Protocol ). MTP support does exist in Linux. My understanding is that various manufacturers implement it a little differently so there are some device-dependent fiddles. Your version of the Clip may or may not let you configure which you are using. The instructions pointed at (for the e250) tell you to switch it to "MSC". MTP is supported in current Linux, but it has been improving over the last few years. So you should be using a non-ancient distro if you want good luck with MTP devices. If that sounds like superstition, that's because it is: I don't know the cold hard facts. So: before I go too much further, I should know if MTP is an issue here. Do you know if your clip can be set to be UMS? If so, that is the easiest approach. MTP may be more suited to DAP uses. I don't understand it, but it seems to have a model of files as having artists, titles, albums, covers, etc. that matches commercial music. MSC just has a filesystem hierarchy (which I'm more comfortable with) and some convention(s) for encoding playlists in a file. Programs such as Amorok and Gnomad2 understand MTP, with the aid of libraries (libmtp in particular). I don't know if MTP devices can appear as mounted filesystems. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 17:10:26 2010 From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (aaron d) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:10:26 -0400 Subject: SanDisk mp3 player not seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a clip+ and can second the MSC protocol for use as mass storage filesystem. It then works well with gpodder and simple 'cp' (or GUI equiv.) On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 1:01 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Chris F.A. Johnson > > | It's a 1GB SanDisk Clip: . > | > | I followed the instructions at > | , but nothing > | works. > > Those instructions are for the e200 series. You have a Sansa Clip of > some kind (there are several versions, the current being the Clip+). > > Judging from the fact that rockbox has stable ports for the e200 > series and unstable ones for the Clip v2 and Clip+, they are surely > different in guts. > > That does not mean that the Linux support is different, but it means > that it could be. > > There are two "standard" protocols for USB Digital Audio Players: UMS > (USB Mass Storage -- looks like flash memory; well supported) aka MSC > (usb Mass Storage Class) and MTP (Microsoft's favoured Media Transport > Protocol ). > > MTP support does exist in Linux. My understanding is that various > manufacturers implement it a little differently so there are some > device-dependent fiddles. > > Your version of the Clip may or may not let you configure which you > are using. The instructions pointed at (for the e250) tell you to > switch it to "MSC". > > MTP is supported in current Linux, but it has been improving over the > last few years. So you should be using a non-ancient distro if you > want good luck with MTP devices. If that sounds like superstition, > that's because it is: I don't know the cold hard facts. > > So: before I go too much further, I should know if MTP is an issue > here. Do you know if your clip can be set to be UMS? If so, that is > the easiest approach. > > MTP may be more suited to DAP uses. I don't understand it, but it > seems to have a model of files as having artists, titles, albums, > covers, etc. that matches commercial music. MSC just has a filesystem > hierarchy (which I'm more comfortable with) and some convention(s) > for encoding playlists in a file. > > Programs such as Amorok and Gnomad2 understand MTP, with the aid of > libraries (libmtp in particular). I don't know if MTP devices can > appear as mounted filesystems. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 17:18:27 2010 From: teddymills-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:18:27 -0400 Subject: shellinabox In-Reply-To: <4CB72F2C.1030302-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB72F2C.1030302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB73B63.2010104@gmail.com> https://a.b.c.d:12320 and login On 10/14/2010 12:26 PM, teddy mills wrote: > > I am sure many TLUG have portforwarded 22 NAT SSHv2 to a physical or > virtual server. > > But to get a remote shell with just a browser was sometimes tricky. > You had to use WebMin/SSHv2 java module or use a laptop with SSH client. > In many remote locations, this was not easy or possible. > > I found this be another option. > > I used one of the TurnKey Linux distros. > http://www.turnkeylinux.org/ > > I like these distros because they seem well made. > Fast+Secure+Small footprint. > > I installed TurnKey on my ESXI server. > You can install TurnKey on a virtual or physical box. > > Portforward to your TurnKey Linux distro > > 12320/ShellinaBox > 12321/Webmin > > Then your set. You got a shell wherever you got a browser. > > Browse to your server remotely at http://a.b.c.d:12320 and login! > It is SSL, so it seems pretty secured. > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 17:42:11 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:42:11 -0400 Subject: A Linux career opportunity in southern Florida Message-ID: Last evening at the Unix Unanimous user group I was talking to Mark Lapointe whose firm Prolexic is looking to fill an opening in their southern Florida head office. Prolexic is a firm that helps companies protect themselves from distributed denial of service attacks. What they want is someone with proficiency in these areas, typically at least 6 years: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Java: knows how to make jars, jsp and other related tech. C/C++ PHP (a nice to have) Perl (a nice to have) Knowledge of UNIX Knowledge of RedHat based systems (*cough*CentOS*cough*) Knows how to create Makefiles Knows how to use SVN / CVS Knows how to build RPMS. Cisco Knowledge (a nice to have) Liferay Admin and Development Knowledge (a nice to have, you will eventually learn) - http://www.liferay.com/ Eclipse is our popular IDE, but if you like notepad.. that is your choice. Would be good to mention the SDLC and botnet knowledge. A powerpoint presentation would be a great asset to show ones portfolio. Also good communication skills, writing ability,can work in groups not afraid to document(one would think that they wouldn't have to ask for this). We typically are a relaxed company, health care and 401K packages available. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone interested in this opportunity and willing to relocate to southern Florida should touch base with Mark Lapointe (mlapointe-mDvk1qcdE6VWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org). It is the relocation part that explains why I am not sending in my resume for this opportunity... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 14 23:43:48 2010 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 19:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SanDisk mp3 player not seen In-Reply-To: <20101014135317.GC12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101014135317.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2010, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 02:03:37AM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> >> Does anyone know why this SanDisk mp3 player is not showing up on >> my Mandriva system? >> >> It's a 1GB SanDisk Clip: . >> >> I followed the instructions at >> , but nothing >> works. >> >> I also have an Onyx player which works without any problem. > > You did follow those instructions and actually change the USB mode to > MSC rather than MTP or whatever microsoft's method is? Yes. > What does lsusb show? After running lsusb twice, it showed up. I copied some tracks to it; only some were copied, and I can play them. I reconnected it to the USB port, and it doesn't show up, either with lsusb or fdisk -l. dmesg shows: usb 2-5: device not accepting address 60, error -71 hub 2-0:1.0: unable to enumerate USB device on port 5 usb 2-5: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 61 usb 2-5: device descriptor read/64, error -71 usb 2-5: device descriptor read/64, error -71 usb 2-5: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 62 usb 2-5: device descriptor read/64, error -71 usb 2-5: device descriptor read/64, error -71 usb 2-5: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 63 usb 2-5: device not accepting address 63, error -71 hub 2-0:1.0: unable to enumerate USB device on port 5 -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 15 14:24:34 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:24:34 -0400 Subject: SanDisk mp3 player not seen In-Reply-To: References: <20101014135317.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101015142434.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 07:43:48PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > After running lsusb twice, it showed up. > > I copied some tracks to it; only some were copied, and I can play > them. > > I reconnected it to the USB port, and it doesn't show up, either > with lsusb or fdisk -l. > > dmesg shows: > > usb 2-5: device not accepting address 60, error -71 > hub 2-0:1.0: unable to enumerate USB device on port 5 > usb 2-5: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 61 > usb 2-5: device descriptor read/64, error -71 > usb 2-5: device descriptor read/64, error -71 > usb 2-5: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 62 > usb 2-5: device descriptor read/64, error -71 > usb 2-5: device descriptor read/64, error -71 > usb 2-5: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 63 > usb 2-5: device not accepting address 63, error -71 > hub 2-0:1.0: unable to enumerate USB device on port 5 Well a few possibilities: You have a bad USB cable. You have a bad USB port. You have a bad USB device. You have a bad USB driver (I saw this a few years ago in a certain kernel version). Certainly your USB isn't working properly when connecting that device, which makes it unreliable. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 15 16:17:42 2010 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 12:17:42 -0400 Subject: Data recovery services... Message-ID: <20101015161742.GA31038@yam.witteman.ca> Can anyone recommend a data recovery service in the GTA? A colleague at work has two HDs that were in a PC were the power supply died (I think - he said it wouldn't turn on and made a bad smell). I had him bring in the HDs, and I tried to put them in enclosures, but they don't spin up at all, or make any sign of life. That is all I can do, so now he's asking if I have any recommendations, and I don't, but you all might. Thanks! -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 15 16:53:34 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 12:53:34 -0400 Subject: Data recovery services... In-Reply-To: <20101015161742.GA31038-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101015161742.GA31038@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: You should try firing them in the freezer for an hour or so, then seeing if they work. On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 12:17 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman < william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote: > Can anyone recommend a data recovery service in the GTA? A colleague at > work has two HDs that were in a PC were the power supply died (I think - > he said it wouldn't turn on and made a bad smell). > > I had him bring in the HDs, and I tried to put them in enclosures, but > they don't spin up at all, or make any sign of life. > > That is all I can do, so now he's asking if I have any recommendations, > and I don't, but you all might. Thanks! > -- > > yours, > > William > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFMuH6mHQtmiuz+KT8RAqMsAJ4yT+ZupRmDVv+4t32eqIW1VIXRlACfXDoo > MD6SV5vPfa/WzUdbRVTMTfU= > =Mmh4 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 15 17:05:39 2010 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:05:39 -0400 Subject: Data recovery services... In-Reply-To: <20101015161742.GA31038-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101015161742.GA31038@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <4CB889E3.6080509@alteeve.com> On 10-10-15 12:17 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > Can anyone recommend a data recovery service in the GTA? A colleague at > work has two HDs that were in a PC were the power supply died (I think - > he said it wouldn't turn on and made a bad smell). > > I had him bring in the HDs, and I tried to put them in enclosures, but > they don't spin up at all, or make any sign of life. > > That is all I can do, so now he's asking if I have any recommendations, > and I don't, but you all might. Thanks! I've had decent luck with Ontrack in Markham, but I last needed their services some years ago. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 15 20:34:22 2010 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:34:22 -0700 Subject: Data recovery services... In-Reply-To: References: <20101015161742.GA31038@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: In a sealed ziplock bag. Drives don't like moisture. On 2010-10-15 9:54 AM, "Timothy Hildred" wrote: You should try firing them in the freezer for an hour or so, then seeing if they work. On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 12:17 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman < william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > Can anyone recommend a data recovery service in the GTA? A colleague at > > work has two HDs that... > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFMuH6mHQtmiuz+KT8RAqMsAJ4yT+ZupRmDVv+4t32eqIW1VIXRlACfXDoo > MD6SV5vPfa/WzUdbRVTMTfU= > =Mmh4 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 00:47:14 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 20:47:14 -0400 Subject: Data recovery services... In-Reply-To: References: <20101015161742.GA31038@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: good point, should have mentioned that On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > In a sealed ziplock bag. Drives don't like moisture. > > On 2010-10-15 9:54 AM, "Timothy Hildred" wrote: > > You should try firing them in the freezer for an hour or so, then seeing if > they work. > > On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 12:17 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman < > william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> > >> > Can anyone recommend a data recovery service in the GTA? A colleague at >> > work has two HDs that... >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >> >> iD8DBQFMuH6mHQtmiuz+KT8RAqMsAJ4yT+ZupRmDVv+4t32eqIW1VIXRlACfXDoo >> MD6SV5vPfa/WzUdbRVTMTfU= >> =Mmh4 >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ijaaz-UwkSZrAjFfdkDLQDXwjzI9BPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 02:43:44 2010 From: ijaaz-UwkSZrAjFfdkDLQDXwjzI9BPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Ijaaz A. Ullah) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 22:43:44 -0400 Subject: LISA 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone going? http://www.usenix.org/event/lisa10/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 11:09:48 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 07:09:48 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CB19CE9.9040004-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> If you don't care about kubuntu/unbuntu please kindly ignore this email, regards! I went ahead and upgraded my desktop system this time around from 10.04 to 10.10, I usually like to do a clean install rather than a upgrade. I am happy to report my personal experience was a good one, the upgrade went smoothly with my kubuntu setup, I didn't loose any old settings, the upgraded system is running smooth. For Amarok I was not required to manually install the mp3 modules, it took my old settings and installed the new binaries. Likewise for flash with Firefox, and Java it's all there working like before. My experience with flash is great, likewise with amarok and streaming music the audio works great. A biggie for me, my dual monitor setup is working, I didn't need to fuss with it or adjust the screen resolution it just works. My NVidia driver is still there, they didn't fudge my setup. The upgrade followed the path of no surprises for me, exactly the way the experience should be! I recall upgrading to 10.04 and my system was pooched, and I was forced to do a clean install. I have dual booth setup and they didn't do something with my grub2 setup. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 17:54:03 2010 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 13:54:03 -0400 Subject: OT: Update on the fire Message-ID: At the town hall meeting they held today, they told us that we will most likely be out of our apartments for another 5 weeks, could be longer, those that were on the affected area will most definetely be out longer. On a side note, does anyone have a laptop that I can borrow for the duration? Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 18:12:42 2010 From: alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 18:12:42 +0000 Subject: OT: Update on the fire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1105593683-1287252763-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-620654525-@bda695.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Damn, that seems an awful long time to be out of your house! I have a spare that's being wiped (via DBAN), which, assuming all goes well, you can borrow shortly. The battery doesn't work very well (30 minutes max) but if you've got power you're set. Alex Gabriel Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network -----Original Message----- From: Michael Lauzon Sender: owner-tlug at ss.org Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 13:54:03 To: Reply-To: tlug at ss.org Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Update on the fire At the town hall meeting they held today, they told us that we will most likely be out of our apartments for another 5 weeks, could be longer, those that were on the affected area will most definetely be out longer. On a side note, does anyone have a laptop that I can borrow for the duration? Michael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 19:54:48 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:54:48 -0400 Subject: LISA 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBA0308.1010109@rogers.com> Ijaaz A. Ullah wrote: > > Anyone going? > > http://www.usenix.org/event/lisa10/ > Do you know the way to San Jose? ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 20:15:12 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 16:15:12 -0400 Subject: LISA 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Ijaaz A. Ullah wrote: > Anyone going? > > http://www.usenix.org/event/lisa10/ I'm not going (San Jose, California is a little father/more expensive for a conference than I am willing to take on at the moment) but I have added the above to the upcoming events page here: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Events If anyone knows of other potentially interesting IT events coming up let me know and I will add them to the GTALug list... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 21:16:23 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:16:23 -0400 Subject: throttling Message-ID: Howdy guys; I called up teksavvy to ask them about the slowness of my internet, and they asked me if i had been running torrents between 5pm and 2am. seemingly thats when bell will hit you with a throttle that will last until you reboot your modem. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 21:54:56 2010 From: echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Elliott Chapin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:54:56 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> On 10/16/2010 05:16 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > Howdy guys; > > I called up teksavvy to ask them about the slowness of my internet, and > they asked me if i had been running torrents between 5pm and 2am. > seemingly thats when bell will hit you with a throttle that will last > until you reboot your modem. Try tomato? -- Elliott Chapin http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 22:07:14 2010 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:07:14 -0700 Subject: Data recovery services... In-Reply-To: References: <20101015161742.GA31038@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: I'll add that the ziplog-bag-in-a-freezer method has worked well for me on at least 2 occasions that I can recall. On 2010-10-15 5:48 PM, "Timothy Hildred" wrote: good point, should have mentioned that On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > > In a sealed ziplock ba... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 16 23:58:04 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:58:04 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: <4CBA1F30.80905-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: you mean the router OS? Mine runs OpenWRT, do you like tomato better? i've noticed a big difference since I started not doing torrents during that time. i figure i'll write a script that scans a folder for .torrent files, adds any new ones to the download queue. run at 205, killed at 4:55 On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Elliott Chapin wrote: > On 10/16/2010 05:16 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > >> Howdy guys; >> >> I called up teksavvy to ask them about the slowness of my internet, and >> they asked me if i had been running torrents between 5pm and 2am. >> seemingly thats when bell will hit you with a throttle that will last >> until you reboot your modem. >> > > Try tomato? > > -- > Elliott Chapin > http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 01:51:44 2010 From: echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Elliott Chapin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 21:51:44 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <4CBA56B0.3020506@teksavvy.com> On 10/16/2010 07:58 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > you mean the router OS? Mine runs OpenWRT, do you like tomato better? Actually, I haven't tried any of them yet, but may try tomato after I'm reasonably sure I won't trash my router - I understand there is a risk. > i've noticed a big difference since I started not doing torrents during > that time. > > i figure i'll write a script that scans a folder for .torrent files, > adds any new ones to the download queue. run at 205, killed at 4:55 > > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Elliott Chapin > wrote: > > On 10/16/2010 05:16 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > > Howdy guys; > > I called up teksavvy to ask them about the slowness of my > internet, and > they asked me if i had been running torrents between 5pm and 2am. > seemingly thats when bell will hit you with a throttle that will > last > until you reboot your modem. > > > Try tomato? > > -- > Elliott Chapin > http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- Elliott Chapin http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 02:01:44 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:01:44 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: <4CBA56B0.3020506-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> <4CBA56B0.3020506@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: do you have one of the linksys 54g ones? On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Elliott Chapin wrote: > On 10/16/2010 07:58 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > >> you mean the router OS? Mine runs OpenWRT, do you like tomato better? >> > > Actually, I haven't tried any of them yet, but may try tomato after I'm > reasonably sure I won't trash my router - I understand there is a risk. > > i've noticed a big difference since I started not doing torrents during >> that time. >> >> i figure i'll write a script that scans a folder for .torrent files, >> adds any new ones to the download queue. run at 205, killed at 4:55 >> >> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Elliott Chapin > > wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2010 05:16 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: >> >> Howdy guys; >> >> I called up teksavvy to ask them about the slowness of my >> internet, and >> they asked me if i had been running torrents between 5pm and 2am. >> seemingly thats when bell will hit you with a throttle that will >> last >> until you reboot your modem. >> >> >> Try tomato? >> >> -- >> Elliott Chapin >> http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> >> > > -- > Elliott Chapin > http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 02:41:16 2010 From: echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Elliott Chapin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:41:16 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> <4CBA56B0.3020506@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <4CBA624C.6010201@teksavvy.com> On 10/16/2010 10:01 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > do you have one of the linksys 54g ones? > > Yup, the l. I guess that's the safest. -- Elliott Chapin http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 07:26:45 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 03:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: <4CBA1F30.80905-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: | From: Elliott Chapin | Try tomato? I think what you mean is: are you using MLPPP? Using that protocol supposedly fools Bells "Deep Packet Inspection". Teksavvy supports it on their end; various router firmware also supports it on the customer side. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 13:12:47 2010 From: echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Elliott Chapin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 09:12:47 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <4CBAF64F.7060509@teksavvy.com> On 10/17/2010 03:26 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Elliott Chapin > > | Try tomato? > > I think what you mean is: are you using MLPPP? Using that protocol > supposedly fools Bells "Deep Packet Inspection". > > Teksavvy supports it on their end; various router firmware also > supports it on the customer side. Does the fact that I am on Teksavvy mean by itself that I am less subject to throttling? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Elliott Chapin http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 14:28:14 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 10:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: <4CBAF64F.7060509-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> <4CBAF64F.7060509@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: | From: Elliott Chapin | Does the fact that I am on Teksavvy mean by itself that I am less subject to | throttling? Not clear. The CRTC decided that Bell was allowed to throttle you and other 3rd party ISPs using the Bell ADSL infrastructure. Sad. But Bell could certainly decide to throttle its own customers more than other ISPs' customers. I don't know whether this makes any sense to them. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 14:51:40 2010 From: echapin-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Elliott Chapin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 10:51:40 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> <4CBAF64F.7060509@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <4CBB0D7C.6070209@teksavvy.com> On 10/17/2010 10:28 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Elliott Chapin > > | Does the fact that I am on Teksavvy mean by itself that I am less subject to > | throttling? > > Not clear. > > The CRTC decided that Bell was allowed to throttle you and other 3rd > party ISPs using the Bell ADSL infrastructure. Sad. And I thought it was otherwise. Thx, E.C. -- Elliott Chapin http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 17:41:26 2010 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 13:41:26 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CB987FC.4010103-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 07:09:48 -0400 Rajinder Yadav wrote: > If you don't care about kubuntu/unbuntu please kindly ignore this email, > regards! ... Rajinder, Congrats on a successful install. My experience with Fedora Core 12 was messy. I have put my notes online at http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/RevLinux/ Perhaps if a bunch of us were to do this, we would have a nice install library showing what works, and how to troubleshoot the stuff that does not work. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 18:48:03 2010 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:48:03 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> Had one upgrade to Ubuntu 10.10 go completely cleanly. The other decided it would be a great idea to do the reboot before the global dpkg-reconfigure was done. It's still a bit wobbly, especially around gdm and my bluetooth keyboard/trackpad combo. (If anyone's looking for a tidy wireless controller for their living room machine, the "Logitech Cordless MediaBoard Pro for PLAYSTATION 3" can be had quite cheaply, and works just fine with those $8-10 Bluetooth dongles.) Still can't get it to do sound over HDMI, tho'. Some other day. Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 20:38:32 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:38:32 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: <4CBB0D7C.6070209-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> <4CBAF64F.7060509@teksavvy.com> <4CBB0D7C.6070209@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: you are definitely not less subject to throttling being at teksavvy. the guy was pretty clear, 5pm-2am, no torrents, and your fine. i just realized i didn't ask what the score was for weekends and holidays... On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Elliott Chapin wrote: > On 10/17/2010 10:28 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >> | From: Elliott Chapin >> >> | Does the fact that I am on Teksavvy mean by itself that I am less >> subject to >> | throttling? >> >> Not clear. >> >> The CRTC decided that Bell was allowed to throttle you and other 3rd >> party ISPs using the Bell ADSL infrastructure. Sad. >> > > And I thought it was otherwise. > > Thx, > E.C. > > -- > Elliott Chapin > http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 20:39:15 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:39:15 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CBB44E3.3000507-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> Message-ID: launch party at linux caffe, harbord and grace, 2nite at 5. i'm here now and its packed! On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Had one upgrade to Ubuntu 10.10 go completely cleanly. The other decided > it would be a great idea to do the reboot before the global > dpkg-reconfigure was done. It's still a bit wobbly, especially around > gdm and my bluetooth keyboard/trackpad combo. > > (If anyone's looking for a tidy wireless controller for their living > room machine, the "Logitech Cordless MediaBoard Pro for PLAYSTATION 3" > can be had quite cheaply, and works just fine with those $8-10 Bluetooth > dongles.) > > Still can't get it to do sound over HDMI, tho'. Some other day. > > Stewart > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 20:53:31 2010 From: alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:53:31 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com><4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com><20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca><4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1899221965-1287348812-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1584907075-@bda695.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> This is the first I've heard of either the LinuxCaffe or the launch party. I'll likely head down to check it out! Alex Gabriel Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Hildred Sender: owner-tlug at ss.org Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:39:15 To: Reply-To: tlug at ss.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released launch party at linux caffe, harbord and grace, 2nite at 5. i'm here now and its packed! On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Had one upgrade to Ubuntu 10.10 go completely cleanly. The other decided > it would be a great idea to do the reboot before the global > dpkg-reconfigure was done. It's still a bit wobbly, especially around > gdm and my bluetooth keyboard/trackpad combo. > > (If anyone's looking for a tidy wireless controller for their living > room machine, the "Logitech Cordless MediaBoard Pro for PLAYSTATION 3" > can be had quite cheaply, and works just fine with those $8-10 Bluetooth > dongles.) > > Still can't get it to do sound over HDMI, tho'. Some other day. > > Stewart > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 17 22:40:45 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:40:45 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> <4CBAF64F.7060509@teksavvy.com> <4CBB0D7C.6070209@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: All Teksavvy does is allow for MLPPP, which _does_ defeat throttling. I never see any speed difference, torrents are running 7/24. On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > you are definitely not less subject to throttling being at teksavvy. the guy > was pretty clear, 5pm-2am, no torrents, and your fine. i just realized i > didn't ask what the score was for weekends and holidays... > > On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Elliott Chapin > wrote: >> >> On 10/17/2010 10:28 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >>> >>> | From: Elliott Chapin >>> >>> | Does the fact that I am on Teksavvy mean by itself that I am less >>> subject to >>> | throttling? >>> >>> Not clear. >>> >>> The CRTC decided that Bell was allowed to throttle you and other 3rd >>> party ISPs using the Bell ADSL infrastructure. ?Sad. >> >> And I thought it was otherwise. >> >> Thx, >> E.C. >> -- >> Elliott Chapin >> http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 08:20:31 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:20:31 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4CBC034F.50207@gmail.com> On 10-10-17 01:41 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 07:09:48 -0400 > Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >> If you don't care about kubuntu/unbuntu please kindly ignore this email, >> regards! ... > > Rajinder, > > Congrats on a successful install. > > My experience with Fedora Core 12 was messy. I have put my notes online at http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/RevLinux/ > > Perhaps if a bunch of us were to do this, we would have a nice install library showing what works, and how to troubleshoot the stuff that does not work. > Howard, nice site idea, you should give ubuntu a try =) if you want the bells and whistle I say try Kubuntu for KDE, if like gnome try ubuntu, or Xubuntu for xfce. I just thought it would be nice if we posted our install or upgrade experience, it might help others who are considering the same thing. In cases where a new version of a given distro is released, it would be helpful to know if others had a easy time or a difficult time with the process! Know what failed, what's not up to par, and what's improved. If it's a bad release, this knowledge will allow others to reconsider waiting till the initial bugs are fixed before they attempt to upgrade or do a clean install on the latest and greatest! I have a vmware image running on my laptop, so for me I usually try a clean install on there and see how things go, also I can do the upgrade and see how that goes. If anything fails I can revert back to a working image in a matter of seconds. Others might not have access to a working vm image either wmware or virtualbox, due to hardware or disk space restriction. Here is where the early adopters can provide a report of their experiences. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely [Kubuntu x86_64 10.10 | Ruby 1.9.2p0 | Rails 3.0.1] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 08:25:20 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:25:20 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CBB44E3.3000507-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> On 10-10-17 02:48 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Had one upgrade to Ubuntu 10.10 go completely cleanly. The other decided > it would be a great idea to do the reboot before the global > dpkg-reconfigure was done. It's still a bit wobbly, especially around > gdm and my bluetooth keyboard/trackpad combo. you should report this bug, its a nice finding! https://bugs.kde.org/ i've notcied once in a while my xorg start to consume more cpu then it needs and the only way for me to correct this is with a reboot or killing the xorg process. this is a bug i am going to log. if there a better way to restart the XServer ? - Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely [Kubuntu x86_64 10.10 | Ruby 1.9.2p0 | Rails 3.0.1] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 08:36:31 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:36:31 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CBC0470.6000500-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CBC070F.1020909@gmail.com> On 10-10-18 04:25 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On 10-10-17 02:48 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >> Had one upgrade to Ubuntu 10.10 go completely cleanly. The other decided >> it would be a great idea to do the reboot before the global >> dpkg-reconfigure was done. It's still a bit wobbly, especially around >> gdm and my bluetooth keyboard/trackpad combo. > > you should report this bug, its a nice finding! > provided the wrong bug reporting link, here is the right one https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Bugs/Reporting -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely [Kubuntu x86_64 10.10 | Ruby 1.9.2p0 | Rails 3.0.1] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 09:18:29 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 05:18:29 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CBC070F.1020909-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> <4CBC070F.1020909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CBC10E5.2060600@gmail.com> On 10-10-18 04:36 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On 10-10-18 04:25 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> On 10-10-17 02:48 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >>> Had one upgrade to Ubuntu 10.10 go completely cleanly. The other decided >>> it would be a great idea to do the reboot before the global >>> dpkg-reconfigure was done. It's still a bit wobbly, especially around >>> gdm and my bluetooth keyboard/trackpad combo. >> >> you should report this bug, its a nice finding! >> > provided the wrong bug reporting link, here is the right one > > https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Bugs/Reporting > i went to log a bug for xorg and found out i was using a nvidia driver =P so i decided to update that, hopefully i won't see anymore xorg odd cpu loads after my box has been running for a long time with only shutdown to ram. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely [Kubuntu x86_64 10.10 | Ruby 1.9.2p0 | Rails 3.0.1] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 11:03:36 2010 From: alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:03:36 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CBC0470.6000500-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: Historically, using the key combination of Ctrl+Alt+Backspace was sufficient to restart X. However, this seems to have been disabled in the more recent versions of (K)Ubuntu, though it still works for other distros. I've noticed that the only way now to restart X is to log out of your session, then use the power menu on the main screen to restart X. I don't know the exact method (I use Kubuntu, so the option may be different), but that's generally what I have to do. It's a bit slower than the older method, but it still works to restart X. I prefer the older method (I suppose I could change key bindings somewhere) as it allowed me to restart a non functioning X, but the new way still works. Alex Gabriel Winders: Where's y'all wanna git t'day? On 10-10-18 04:25 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On 10-10-17 02:48 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >> Had one upgrade to Ubuntu 10.10 go completely cleanly. The other decided >> it would be a great idea to do the reboot before the global >> dpkg-reconfigure was done. It's still a bit wobbly, especially around >> gdm and my bluetooth keyboard/trackpad combo. > > you should report this bug, its a nice finding! > > https://bugs.kde.org/ > > i've notcied once in a while my xorg start to consume more cpu then it > needs and the only way for me to correct this is with a reboot or > killing the xorg process. this is a bug i am going to log. > > if there a better way to restart the XServer ? > > - > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely > > [Kubuntu x86_64 10.10 | Ruby 1.9.2p0 | Rails 3.0.1] > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 11:39:25 2010 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:39:25 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CBC070F.1020909-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> <4CBC070F.1020909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CBC31ED.6020504@gmail.com> On 10-10-18 04:36 , Rajinder Yadav wrote: > > you should report this bug, its a nice finding! > > https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Bugs/Reporting Except I wouldn't touch KDE with a bargepole. The new Gnome and Ubuntu designs are very nicely done. On 10-10-18 07:03 , Alex Gabriel wrote: > > Historically, using the key combination of Ctrl+Alt+Backspace was > sufficient to restart X. ... which is enormous fun when your system can't even find the Bluetooth keyboard and mouse ;-( Stewart -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 12:00:27 2010 From: mlxxxp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:00:27 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18 October 2010 07:03, Alex Gabriel wrote: > Historically, using the key combination of Ctrl+Alt+Backspace was sufficient > to restart X. ?However, this seems to have been disabled in the more recent > versions of (K)Ubuntu, though it still works for other distros. It was simple to re-enable Ctrl+Alt+Backspace with my Ubuntu 10.04 but I forgot how I did it. A quick search turned up this for 10.10 (which is the same for 10.04). -- Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 13:33:20 2010 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:33:20 -0400 Subject: throttling In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA1F30.80905@teksavvy.com> <4CBAF64F.7060509@teksavvy.com> <4CBB0D7C.6070209@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: I would suggest DD-WRT over Tomato. Just make sure you use the EKO builds with MLPPP On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > All Teksavvy does is allow for MLPPP, which _does_ defeat throttling. > I never see any speed difference, torrents are running 7/24. > > > On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: >> you are definitely not less subject to throttling being at teksavvy. the guy >> was pretty clear, 5pm-2am, no torrents, and your fine. i just realized i >> didn't ask what the score was for weekends and holidays... >> >> On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Elliott Chapin >> wrote: >>> >>> On 10/17/2010 10:28 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >>>> >>>> | From: Elliott Chapin >>>> >>>> | Does the fact that I am on Teksavvy mean by itself that I am less >>>> subject to >>>> | throttling? >>>> >>>> Not clear. >>>> >>>> The CRTC decided that Bell was allowed to throttle you and other 3rd >>>> party ISPs using the Bell ADSL infrastructure. ?Sad. >>> >>> And I thought it was otherwise. >>> >>> Thx, >>> E.C. >>> -- >>> Elliott Chapin >>> http://clients.teksavvy.com/~echapin >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > > > > -- > TBM > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Mark Lane -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 14:05:31 2010 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:05:31 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead Message-ID: Don't blame me for the title, it's taken directly from the article. I'll post a link to the full article after the brief excerpt. Do you agree or disagree with his conclusions? "It kills me to say this: The dream of Linux as a major desktop OS is now pretty much dead. "Despite phenomenal security and stability--and amazing strides in usability, performance, and compatibility--Linux simply isn?t catching on with desktop users. And if there ever was a chance for desktop Linux to succeed, that ship has long since sunk. "Over the past few years, modern Linux distributions such as Ubuntu have utterly transformed the open-source desktop user experience into something sleek and simple, while arguably surpassing Windows and Mac OS in both security and stability. Meanwhile, the public failure of Windows Vista and the rise of the netbook gave Linux some openings to capture a meaningful slice of the market. But those opportunities have been squandered and lost, and Linux desktop market share remains stagnant at around 1 percent. "I should emphasize that I'm not by any means talking about the demise of Linux itself. New projections from the Linux Foundation credibly show that demand for Linux on servers will outstrip demand for all other options over the next few years. And, as I'll discuss at length in this article, Linux has already established itself as a dominant operating system on mobile and embedded devices ranging from tablets and phones to TVs and printers. "But for anyone who has longed for a future in which free, open-source Linux distributions would rival premium commercial operating systems from Microsoft and Apple on desktop PCs, now might be a good time to set more-realistic expectations. Though I personally wish that the opposite were true, the year of the Linux desktop will never come." http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/207999/desktop_linux_the_dream_is_dead.html -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 14:07:38 2010 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:07:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Update on the fire In-Reply-To: <1105593683-1287252763-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-620654525--6MQWB4Gd5KvjL2gL5RxOEzYg3SYOavFBmZ6FRVpaDsI@public.gmane.org> References: <1105593683-1287252763-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-620654525-@bda695.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 14:12, Alex Gabriel wrote: > Damn, that seems an awful long time to be out of your house! > > I have a spare that's being wiped (via DBAN), which, assuming all goes well, > you can borrow shortly. The battery doesn't work very well (30 minutes max) > but if you've got power you're set. > > Alex Gabriel Thanks for the offer, however, I want to see if anyone else has one for offer, it's just that I don't want to have to carry a power cord everywhere, if no one else has one, then I'll take you up on your offer. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 14:35:19 2010 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:35:19 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That article describes my situation. I have Linux on my server and Windows on my Desktop (Although I dual boot with Kubuntu). I primarily use Windows for gaming. For other people the various programs they use are written for Windows only. Granted that Linux has made great strides in "usability, performance, and compatibility" but until the most popular Windows programs (games and applications) are written for Linux too the "dream is dead". > Don't blame me for the title, it's taken directly from the article. > I'll post a link to the full article after the brief excerpt. Do you > agree or disagree with his conclusions? > > "It kills me to say this: The dream of Linux as a major desktop OS is > now pretty much dead. > > "Despite phenomenal security and stability--and amazing strides in > usability, performance, and compatibility--Linux simply isn???t catching > on with desktop users. And if there ever was a chance for desktop > Linux to succeed, that ship has long since sunk. > > "Over the past few years, modern Linux distributions such as Ubuntu > have utterly transformed the open-source desktop user experience into > something sleek and simple, while arguably surpassing Windows and Mac > OS in both security and stability. Meanwhile, the public failure of > Windows Vista and the rise of the netbook gave Linux some openings to > capture a meaningful slice of the market. But those opportunities have > been squandered and lost, and Linux desktop market share remains > stagnant at around 1 percent. > > "I should emphasize that I'm not by any means talking about the demise > of Linux itself. New projections from the Linux Foundation credibly > show that demand for Linux on servers will outstrip demand for all > other options over the next few years. And, as I'll discuss at length > in this article, Linux has already established itself as a dominant > operating system on mobile and embedded devices ranging from tablets > and phones to TVs and printers. > > "But for anyone who has longed for a future in which free, open-source > Linux distributions would rival premium commercial operating systems > from Microsoft and Apple on desktop PCs, now might be a good time to > set more-realistic expectations. Though I personally wish that the > opposite were true, the year of the Linux desktop will never come." > > > http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/207999/desktop_linux_the_dream_is_dead.html > > -- > Sincerely, > > Michael Lauzon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 14:40:50 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:40:50 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For North America and Europe, I agree. For the rest of the world, not so much - simply because Macs are too expensive. Because, you see, lots of Mac people are Linux/Unix people too. And you know why? Because, given the option, a Mac is much better at being a desktop than Linux. Sorry, it's a fact. Having said that, I'd still take Linux over Windows any time. The problem is I'm a regular person who needs to get things that are not server or development related done. If you've ever tried to make music on Linux, you know how absolutely PAINFUL it is to set everything up just to find out that most programs are too unstable to be useful -- and the stable ones have horrid UIs. That applies to design, video and illustration applications too. But I would worry too much, since the desktop itself is kind of dying too. Things are changing, people. That's not necessarily bad. - Fabio On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 10:05, Michael Lauzon wrote: > Don't blame me for the title, it's taken directly from the article. > I'll post a link to the full article after the brief excerpt. ?Do you > agree or disagree with his conclusions? > > "It kills me to say this: The dream of Linux as a major desktop OS is > now pretty much dead. > > "Despite phenomenal security and stability--and amazing strides in > usability, performance, and compatibility--Linux simply isn?t catching > on with desktop users. And if there ever was a chance for desktop > Linux to succeed, that ship has long since sunk. > > "Over the past few years, modern Linux distributions such as Ubuntu > have utterly transformed the open-source desktop user experience into > something sleek and simple, while arguably surpassing Windows and Mac > OS in both security and stability. Meanwhile, the public failure of > Windows Vista and the rise of the netbook gave Linux some openings to > capture a meaningful slice of the market. But those opportunities have > been squandered and lost, and Linux desktop market share remains > stagnant at around 1 percent. > > "I should emphasize that I'm not by any means talking about the demise > of Linux itself. New projections from the Linux Foundation credibly > show that demand for Linux on servers will outstrip demand for all > other options over the next few years. And, as I'll discuss at length > in this article, Linux has already established itself as a dominant > operating system on mobile and embedded devices ranging from tablets > and phones to TVs and printers. > > "But for anyone who has longed for a future in which free, open-source > Linux distributions would rival premium commercial operating systems > from Microsoft and Apple on desktop PCs, now might be a good time to > set more-realistic expectations. Though I personally wish that the > opposite were true, the year of the Linux desktop will never come." > > > http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/207999/desktop_linux_the_dream_is_dead.html > > -- > Sincerely, > > Michael Lauzon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 14:52:25 2010 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:52:25 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC5F29.6000201@alteeve.com> On 10-10-18 10:05 AM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > Don't blame me for the title, it's taken directly from the article. > I'll post a link to the full article after the brief excerpt. Do you > agree or disagree with his conclusions? It's a long road to an over-night success. I see Microsoft staying dominant in the gaming market and Apple staying dominant in the content creation market. Linux still very much has a future on the desktop. The problem is people never-ending prediction of "the year of Linux on the desktop", and then feeling the need to cover their tracks after the fact. I agree with the Red Hat philosophy in this regard; It will happen when it is ready, and not a day sooner. Digi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 14:52:55 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:52:55 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I obviously meant "woldn't". On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 10:40, Fabio FZero wrote: > But I would worry too much, since the desktop itself is kind of dying > too. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 16:19:36 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:19:36 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > Don't blame me for the title, it's taken directly from the article. > I'll post a link to the full article after the brief excerpt. ?Do you > agree or disagree with his conclusions? > > "It kills me to say this: The dream of Linux as a major desktop OS is > now pretty much dead. > > "Despite phenomenal security and stability--and amazing strides in > usability, performance, and compatibility--Linux simply isn?t catching > on with desktop users. And if there ever was a chance for desktop > Linux to succeed, that ship has long since sunk. > > "Over the past few years, modern Linux distributions such as Ubuntu > have utterly transformed the open-source desktop user experience into > something sleek and simple, while arguably surpassing Windows and Mac > OS in both security and stability. Meanwhile, the public failure of > Windows Vista and the rise of the netbook gave Linux some openings to > capture a meaningful slice of the market. But those opportunities have > been squandered and lost, and Linux desktop market share remains > stagnant at around 1 percent. > > "I should emphasize that I'm not by any means talking about the demise > of Linux itself. New projections from the Linux Foundation credibly > show that demand for Linux on servers will outstrip demand for all > other options over the next few years. And, as I'll discuss at length > in this article, Linux has already established itself as a dominant > operating system on mobile and embedded devices ranging from tablets > and phones to TVs and printers. > > "But for anyone who has longed for a future in which free, open-source > Linux distributions would rival premium commercial operating systems > from Microsoft and Apple on desktop PCs, now might be a good time to > set more-realistic expectations. Though I personally wish that the > opposite were true, the year of the Linux desktop will never come." > > > http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/207999/desktop_linux_the_dream_is_dead.html > I've read this article a million times before, and it'll be written a million times more. Why? Because it gets people riled up and reading the article and sells ad space. It's a headline with no body. That's it. The fact is no one, not even the heaviest IT guru on the planet, has the slightest clue what the situation will be 3, 5, or 10 years down the road. Look at the history of IT predictions and see how many of them came true. Hell, the Mac was supposed to be done with years ago. How do we know that 'compatibility' will even be an issue in a year or so? The cloud could utterly strip Windows of that advantage. When you're only using a browser there is very little difference between Win and Lin for most users. Or it could be that the entire idea of the desktop computer is becoming moot. Who knows? My recommendation is to avoid articles like this like the plague. Anyone who claims to have even the vaguest idea what will happen with computing in the future is selling snake oil, and is most likely just trolling for an argument. -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 16:54:09 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Thomas Milne | I've read this article a million times before, and it'll be written a | million times more. Why? Because it gets people riled up and reading | the article and sells ad space. It's a headline with no body. You have a point. | Anyone who claims to have even the vaguest idea what will happen with | computing in the future is selling snake oil, and is most likely just | trolling for an argument. Someone has to make the future. Articles like this can affect that process. Possibly negatively for us (preventing effort towards a Linux desktop). Possibly positively (preventing wasted effort towards a Linux desktop). I was looking for an Alan Kay quote and found other apt ones here The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay pretty similar to the earlier: We cannot predict the future, but we can invent it. Dandridge M. Cole Also relevant: If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one. John Galsworthy The future is already here ? it's just not very evenly distributed. William Gibson (Example: many of us use a Linux desktop.) The present is theirs; the future, for which I really worked, is mine. Nikola Tesla My desktop and notebooks run Linux all the time. My wife often uses WinXP because I haven't found a good QuickBooks replacement. My (grad student) children use Linux desktops exclusively except when gaming. Even gaming is mostly done on a console these days. I ran Win7 last night on an Acer Revo that I'm using as an HTPC. The reason? I wanted to watch a TV show from Global TV's web site and Adobe Flash is much smoother on Win7 than on Linux. Damned closed-source. In the event, I didn't have flash on the Win7 box and it used some other facility (Silverlight? It didn't tell me) that was just as choppy as Adobe Flash on Linux. I've since loaded Adobe Flash on the Win7. From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 16:57:35 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:57:35 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Version -- one step forward, 10 steps back Message-ID: Hi all, I've upgraded my Ubuntu netbook to 10.10 and it's a massive step down. Canonical has made a strategic decision to chase not only Apple and Microsoft, but also Google and RIM and Intel into the realm of touch and tablets. Based on what I see on my little Asus this is a stunningly bad decision. I only hope they don't burn too many bridges and force too many others away in the process of alienating their core. In making the new Ubuntu Netbook distribution touch-friendly, they've made desktop administration and customization a nightmare. There's pride in eliminating the taskbar at the bottom, but it's been replaced with a bigger apps/taskbar at the left. Documentation is sparse and they're no help icon. Microsoft found that you couldn't just simply adapt a desktop UI to a tablet and expect it to work well. In 10.10, Ubuntu (or more probably Canonical, seeing some revenue potential in embedded devices) has made the opposite mistake in chosing to switch to a tablet-focused UI, and those of us still with mice and touchpads and sticks can fend for ourselves. Even if they make massive strides in this system they'll be far behind the others in this field. They have no chance of succeeding to compete with iOS or Android or WebOS or WinMo7, certainly with this tech. I only hope they don't completely screw over their traditional laptop users in pursuit of tablet vendors. Meanwhile. I'll have a serious look at the Kubuntu netbook edition and maybe -- if desperate -- Meego. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 17:06:15 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:06:15 -0400 Subject: Dist upgrade from 9.10 to 10.04 Message-ID: I'm doing it in a vm on a Ubuntu image i respun with remastersys, to see what ill happen. Only 7 hours to go! On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've upgraded my Ubuntu netbook to 10.10 and it's a massive step down. > > Canonical has made a strategic decision to chase not only Apple and Microsoft, but also Google and RIM and Intel > into the realm of touch and tablets. Based on what I see on my little Asus > this is a stunningly bad decision. I only hope they don't burn too many > bridges and force too many others away in the process of alienating their > core. > > In making the new Ubuntu Netbook distribution touch-friendly, they've made > desktop administration and customization a nightmare. There's pride in > eliminating the taskbar at the bottom, but it's been replaced with a bigger > apps/taskbar at the left. Documentation is sparse and they're no help icon. > > Microsoft found that you couldn't just simply adapt a desktop UI to a > tablet and expect it to work well. In 10.10, Ubuntu (or more probably > Canonical, seeing some revenue potential in embedded devices) has made the > opposite mistake in chosing to switch to a tablet-focused UI, and those of > us still with mice and touchpads and sticks can fend for ourselves. Even if > they make massive strides in this system they'll be far behind the others in > this field. > > They have no chance of succeeding to compete with iOS or Android or WebOS > or WinMo7, certainly with this tech. I only hope they don't completely screw > over their traditional laptop users in pursuit of tablet vendors. Meanwhile. > I'll have a serious look at the Kubuntu netbook edition and maybe -- if > desperate -- Meego. > > - Evan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 17:09:38 2010 From: cdasilva-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org (Clive DaSilva) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:09:38 -0400 Subject: Dist upgrade from 9.10 to 10.04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC7F52.5080601@iprimus.ca> Well I upgraded one laptop and one desktop from 10.04 to 10.10 and I think its just great. Phenomenal boot up time, snappy screen reloads, etc On 10-10-18 01:06 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > I'm doing it in a vm on a Ubuntu image i respun with remastersys, to > see what ill happen. Only 7 hours to go! > > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Evan Leibovitch > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I've upgraded my Ubuntu netbook to 10.10 and it's a massive step down. > > Canonical has made a strategic decision > to chase not only Apple and > Microsoft, but also Google and RIM and Intel into the realm of > touch and tablets. Based on what I see on my little Asus this is a > stunningly bad decision. I only hope they don't burn too many > bridges and force too many others away in the process of > alienating their core. > > In making the new Ubuntu Netbook distribution touch-friendly, > they've made desktop administration and customization a nightmare. > There's pride in eliminating the taskbar at the bottom, but it's > been replaced with a bigger apps/taskbar at the left. > Documentation is sparse and they're no help icon. > > Microsoft found that you couldn't just simply adapt a desktop UI > to a tablet and expect it to work well. In 10.10, Ubuntu (or more > probably Canonical, seeing some revenue potential in embedded > devices) has made the opposite mistake in chosing to switch to a > tablet-focused UI, and those of us still with mice and touchpads > and sticks can fend for ourselves. Even if they make massive > strides in this system they'll be far behind the others in this field. > > They have no chance of succeeding to compete with iOS or Android > or WebOS or WinMo7, certainly with this tech. I only hope they > don't completely screw over their traditional laptop users in > pursuit of tablet vendors. Meanwhile. I'll have a serious look at > the Kubuntu netbook edition and maybe -- if desperate -- Meego. > > - Evan > > -- Clive DaSilva CMA Tel: 416-421-2480 Cell: 416-560-8820 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 17:21:41 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:21:41 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree we have to invent the future, but the problem is this future is sort of being ignored most of the time. Take for example 10/GUI; it's a perfect mash-up of multi-touch and desktop interfaces. For some reason it's being ignored to this date. http://10gui.com (Notice the linux-based GUI mockup!) I really hoped the Toshiba dual-screen Libretto would implement it in some form, but they seem to have screwed up royally in the UI department. http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/08/toshiba-libretto-w105-review Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the desktop will continue to change and become even less relevant in the near future. In fact it already has; most people use notebooks now, and it *is* a different way to use the computer. Instead of going to a desk and turning it on, you put it on your lap and wake it up. This alone is a huge shift. I for one believe the computer will be the cellphone pretty soon. You will simply insert it or connect it (wireless, probably) to an "empty" laptop-like device to do more complex tasks, but that's it. And you know what? Microsoft doesn't have that much of a foothold in this market (yet). - Fabio On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 12:54, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Thomas Milne > > | I've read this article a million times before, and it'll be written a > | million times more. Why? Because it gets people riled up and reading > | the article and sells ad space. It's a headline with no body. > > You have a point. > > | Anyone who claims to have even the vaguest idea what will happen with > | computing in the future is selling snake oil, and is most likely just > | trolling for an argument. > > Someone has to make the future. ?Articles like this can affect that > process. ?Possibly negatively for us (preventing effort towards a > Linux desktop). ?Possibly positively (preventing wasted effort towards > a Linux desktop). > > I was looking for an Alan Kay quote and found other apt ones here > > > ? ? ? ?The best way to predict the future is to invent it. > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Alan Kay > > pretty similar to the earlier: > > ? ? ? ?We cannot predict the future, but we can invent it. > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Dandridge M. Cole > > Also relevant: > > ? ? ? ?If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one. > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?John Galsworthy > > ? ? ? ?The future is already here ? it's just not very > ? ? ? ?evenly distributed. > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?William Gibson > ? ? ? ?(Example: many of us use a Linux desktop.) > > ? ? ? ?The present is theirs; the future, for which I really worked, > ? ? ? ?is mine. > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Nikola Tesla > > My desktop and notebooks run Linux all the time. ?My wife often uses > WinXP because I haven't found a good QuickBooks replacement. ?My (grad > student) children use Linux desktops exclusively except when gaming. > Even gaming is mostly done on a console these days. > > I ran Win7 last night on an Acer Revo that I'm using as an HTPC. ?The > reason? ?I wanted to watch a TV show from Global TV's web site and > Adobe Flash is much smoother on Win7 than on Linux. ?Damned > closed-source. ?In the event, I didn't have flash on the Win7 box and > it used some other facility (Silverlight? ?It didn't tell me) that was > just as choppy as Adobe Flash on Linux. ?I've since loaded Adobe Flash > on the Win7. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 17:22:30 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Version -- one step forward, 10 steps back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Evan Leibovitch | I've upgraded my Ubuntu netbook to 10.10 and it's a massive step down. Thanks for your useful analysis. I want a netbook to be a small notebook. A couple of relevant consequences: I try to get netbooks with useful resolutions (1366x768) and I run a normal distro (not a netbook distro). Most netbooks have low resolution screens. Many users find that normal distros don't work well with that resolution. I suspect that is a significant driver for netbook "remixes". Netbooks are felt to have other differentiators, but only sometimes: - even radically lower resolution - touch screens - use cases skewed towards "social media" - use cases skewed towards low attention span and intensity - low memory - low CPU All these lead away from characteristics I want in a distro so the chance I'd like such a distro low. Maybe that applies to you too. Yesterday I was using my zaurus. What did I run? "terminal", so I could use grep and less. That's all. I'm old school. But you knew that. I have a ThinkPad x61t tablet. Do I ever use the tablet features? No. That may be a reflection of me, what I do with the tablet, or the state of Linux programs. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 17:27:20 2010 From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (aaron d) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:27:20 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Version -- one step forward, 10 steps back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > There's pride in eliminating the taskbar at the bottom, but it's been > replaced with a bigger apps/taskbar at the left. Documentation is sparse and > they're no help icon. > > Is that new (in 10.10)? Pretty sure it is not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 17:34:41 2010 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:34:41 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC8531.9060707@gmail.com> On 10/18/2010 12:19 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: .... > I've read this article a million times before, and it'll be written a > million times more. Why? Because it gets people riled up and reading > the article and sells ad space. It's a headline with no body. > > That's it. > > The fact is no one, not even the heaviest IT guru on the planet, has > the slightest clue what the situation will be 3, 5, or 10 years down > the road. Look at the history of IT predictions and see how many of > them came true. Hell, the Mac was supposed to be done with years ago. > > How do we know that 'compatibility' will even be an issue in a year or > so? The cloud could utterly strip Windows of that advantage. When > you're only using a browser there is very little difference between > Win and Lin for most users. > > Or it could be that the entire idea of the desktop computer is > becoming moot. Who knows? I agree completely and would like to add some controversy... "Linux on the desktop" is the same as saying "NT Kernel on the desktop", "Hurd on the desktop" or "BSD on the desktop". Gnome, KDE and ChromeOS are attempts to use Linux as an OS underneath a desktop marketplace. ChromeOS might make gains in the market, but it won't be very satisfying to people on this list because it's not a FOSS platform. Gnome seems to be doing well as a generic desktop environment, although QT, being in Nokia's hands, might boost KDE in unexpected ways. MacOS being ported to the BSD variant Darwin answered a lot of the technical promises of "Linux on the desktop", but stopped short on the freedom aspects. It snapped up a lot of the technical userbase of Linux. All that said, currently, there *is* no competitor for Gnome, KDE and the miscelaneous alternatives on the desktop. They're the *only* free and open platforms. Microsoft and Apple have 0% marketshare. As a platform underneath a desktop environment, Linux splits its marketshare with BSD, Hurd and I'm sure I'm missing some others. Using this measurement, I'd guess Linux at... 95% of the market. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 18:43:22 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:43:22 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Version -- one step forward, 10 steps back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18 October 2010 13:27, aaron d wrote: > >> There's pride in eliminating the taskbar at the bottom, but it's been >> replaced with a bigger apps/taskbar at the left. Documentation is sparse and >> they're no help icon. >> > > Is that new (in 10.10)? Pretty sure it is not. > Was to me. I've been current with the Ubuntu Netbook Remix since it came out, and this is the first I've seen the parade of app icons on the left. Till now they were menus and categories.. - Evan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 18:47:34 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:47:34 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > Don't blame me for the title, it's taken directly from the article. > I'll post a link to the full article after the brief excerpt. ?Do you > agree or disagree with his conclusions? Rule ONE in the IT field: IT will ALWAYS go with the lowest cost solution that does the job. Years ago I remember feeling upset because of IBM's seeming domination at the IT field, how IBM seemed to have a total lock on mainframe computers to the exclusion of almost everyone else. IBM seemed to be overcharging for what they were offering, while seemingly using ... questionable ... tactics to continue in that role. Guess what, IBM still has a near total lock on mainframe computers, but I (and most of the rest of IT) doesn't really care. Why? Well, there are still a few roles / jobs where BIG mainframes still do make sense, just not many roles, and those niches are getting smaller each year. So, why the near death of the mainframe computer? Well, a number of upstart visionaries/entrepreneurs, like Paul Allen, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Ken Olson, Jack Tramiel, and Steve Wozniak among MANY others, showed that in many roles the mainframe could be replaced with far less expensive hardware / software combinations. These various people offered a lower cost solution that could do the job. So, where are we now? Well, Microsoft has a seeming near total lock on the desktop while using seemingly ... questionable ... tactics to continue that role. Going forward, where does Microsoft stand? Well, Microsoft are dead or dying in the server markets, and the embedded device markets. I don't know what will happen to desktop market, Microsoft may, like IBM with their mainframes, continue to dominate the desktop market ... and almost nobody will care. Microsoft can NOT compete on cost with Linux, so they will not be the mainstream of IT. It MIGHT be that mainstream IT will be Linux based smart phones backed up with Linux based servers, with Microsoft holding a lock on a the steadily becoming irrelevant desktop market. Regardless as to how things play out, I do know that the least expensive solution will eventually win out as the mainstream IT technology and that may mean a small Microsoft catering to a small niche market... Colin McGregor > "It kills me to say this: The dream of Linux as a major desktop OS is > now pretty much dead. > > "Despite phenomenal security and stability--and amazing strides in > usability, performance, and compatibility--Linux simply isn?t catching > on with desktop users. And if there ever was a chance for desktop > Linux to succeed, that ship has long since sunk. > > "Over the past few years, modern Linux distributions such as Ubuntu > have utterly transformed the open-source desktop user experience into > something sleek and simple, while arguably surpassing Windows and Mac > OS in both security and stability. Meanwhile, the public failure of > Windows Vista and the rise of the netbook gave Linux some openings to > capture a meaningful slice of the market. But those opportunities have > been squandered and lost, and Linux desktop market share remains > stagnant at around 1 percent. > > "I should emphasize that I'm not by any means talking about the demise > of Linux itself. New projections from the Linux Foundation credibly > show that demand for Linux on servers will outstrip demand for all > other options over the next few years. And, as I'll discuss at length > in this article, Linux has already established itself as a dominant > operating system on mobile and embedded devices ranging from tablets > and phones to TVs and printers. > > "But for anyone who has longed for a future in which free, open-source > Linux distributions would rival premium commercial operating systems > from Microsoft and Apple on desktop PCs, now might be a good time to > set more-realistic expectations. Though I personally wish that the > opposite were true, the year of the Linux desktop will never come." > > > http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/207999/desktop_linux_the_dream_is_dead.html > > -- > Sincerely, > > Michael Lauzon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 18:51:21 2010 From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (aaron d) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:51:21 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Version -- one step forward, 10 steps back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ok, so you are describing something worse than the left handed menu that was in 10.04? I haven't tried 10.10 so I don't know, but at first your description didnt sound like anything new (lack of a bottom bar and something going on on the left had side). Perhaps I don't want to bother giving it a whirl. > > Was to me. I've been current with the Ubuntu Netbook Remix since it came > out, and this is the first I've seen the parade of app icons on the left. > Till now they were menus and categories.. > > - Evan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 18:54:38 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:54:38 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Version -- one step forward, 10 steps back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18 October 2010 14:51, aaron d wrote: > ok, so you are describing something worse than the left handed menu that > was in 10.04? Yes I am. There are no menus along the left, just a rolling Mac-like scroll of application icons. The icon scrolling is designed well for a swiping finger but badly for a mouse and horribly for a touchpad. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 18:59:09 2010 From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (aaron d) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:59:09 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Version -- one step forward, 10 steps back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: eww On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > On 18 October 2010 14:51, aaron d wrote: > >> ok, so you are describing something worse than the left handed menu that >> was in 10.04? > > > > Yes I am. There are no menus along the left, just a rolling Mac-like scroll > of application icons. > > The icon scrolling is designed well for a swiping finger but badly for a > mouse and horribly for a touchpad. > > - Evan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 18 22:28:41 2010 From: martjh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Martin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:28:41 -0400 Subject: Dist upgrade from 9.10 to 10.04 In-Reply-To: <4CBC7F52.5080601-q6EoVN9bke6w5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBC7F52.5080601@iprimus.ca> Message-ID: Word seems to be that 10.10 Netbook won't run in VMs, certainly not in VirtualBox 3.2.10; I've tried. -j On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Clive DaSilva wrote: > Well I upgraded one laptop and one desktop from 10.04 to 10.10 and I think > its just great. Phenomenal boot up time, snappy screen reloads, etc > > > > > On 10-10-18 01:06 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > > I'm doing it in a vm on a Ubuntu image i respun with remastersys, to see > what ill happen. Only 7 hours to go! > > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I've upgraded my Ubuntu netbook to 10.10 and it's a massive step down. >> >> Canonical has made a strategic decision to chase not only Apple and >> Microsoft, but also Google and RIM and Intel into the realm of touch and >> tablets. Based on what I see on my little Asus this is a stunningly bad >> decision. I only hope they don't burn too many bridges and force too many >> others away in the process of alienating their core. >> >> In making the new Ubuntu Netbook distribution touch-friendly, they've made >> desktop administration and customization a nightmare. There's pride in >> eliminating the taskbar at the bottom, but it's been replaced with a bigger >> apps/taskbar at the left. Documentation is sparse and they're no help icon. >> >> Microsoft found that you couldn't just simply adapt a desktop UI to a >> tablet and expect it to work well. In 10.10, Ubuntu (or more probably >> Canonical, seeing some revenue potential in embedded devices) has made the >> opposite mistake in chosing to switch to a tablet-focused UI, and those of >> us still with mice and touchpads and sticks can fend for ourselves. Even if >> they make massive strides in this system they'll be far behind the others in >> this field. >> >> They have no chance of succeeding to compete with iOS or Android or WebOS >> or WinMo7, certainly with this tech. I only hope they don't completely screw >> over their traditional laptop users in pursuit of tablet vendors. Meanwhile. >> I'll have a serious look at the Kubuntu netbook edition and maybe -- if >> desperate -- Meego. >> >> - Evan >> > > > > -- > > Clive DaSilva CMA > Tel: 416-421-2480 > Cell: 416-560-8820 > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 00:01:55 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:01:55 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: <4CBC31ED.6020504-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> <4CBC070F.1020909@gmail.com> <4CBC31ED.6020504@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 7:39 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 10-10-18 04:36 , Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> >> you should report this bug, its a nice finding! >> >> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Bugs/Reporting > > Except I wouldn't touch KDE with a bargepole. The new Gnome and Ubuntu > designs are very nicely done. Keep using ubuntu & gnome then! > On 10-10-18 07:03 , Alex Gabriel wrote: >> >> Historically, using the key combination of Ctrl+Alt+Backspace was >> sufficient to restart X. > > ... which is enormous fun when your system can't even find the Bluetooth > keyboard and mouse ;-( > > ?Stewart > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | http://DevMentor.org | Do Good! - Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 00:04:05 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:04:05 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Scott Allen wrote: > On 18 October 2010 07:03, Alex Gabriel wrote: >> Historically, using the key combination of Ctrl+Alt+Backspace was sufficient >> to restart X. ?However, this seems to have been disabled in the more recent >> versions of (K)Ubuntu, though it still works for other distros. > > It was simple to re-enable Ctrl+Alt+Backspace with my Ubuntu 10.04 but > I forgot how I did it. A quick search turned up this for 10.10 (which > is the same for 10.04). > thanks that worked just as well as me killing xorg, i was hoping it would just restart xorg but still keep my session intact, that would be neat =) > > -- > Scott -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 03:08:19 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 23:08:19 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBD0BA3.9020509@gmail.com> On 10-10-18 10:05 AM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > Don't blame me for the title, it's taken directly from the article. > I'll post a link to the full article after the brief excerpt. Do you > agree or disagree with his conclusions? > > "It kills me to say this: The dream of Linux as a major desktop OS is > now pretty much dead. what did some schmuck say about only needing 1, 2 maybe 3 computers in the world and that no one would want or need a computer? you remember that guy, what a noob! this must be an offspring version 2.0-patch2010 =P -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely GNU/Linux: 2.6.35-22-generic Kubuntu x86_64 10.10 | KDE 4.5.1 Ruby 1.9.2p0 | Rails 3.0.1 GCC (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.4.4-14ubuntu5) 4.4.5 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 03:04:57 2010 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 23:04:57 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson@eol.ca> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:40:50 -0400 Fabio FZero wrote: > ... > > But I would worry too much, since the desktop itself is kind of dying > too. Things are changing, people. That's not necessarily bad. > > - Fabio Fabio, Is the desktop really dying? I accept you can do email on a Blackberry, but can you do serious work on one. For any kind of documentation, I go looking for the largest screen I can. This is absolutely necessary for CAD and for spreadsheets. It is less critical for word processing, although I love having two documents side by side up on my screen. How secure is the cloud? If I want something secure, it goes on _my_ computer, and it stays there. The application is contained within my computer too. When I see free stuff offered by servers, I want to know where their revenue stream comes from. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 03:38:37 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 23:38:37 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 23:04, Howard Gibson wrote: > Fabio, > > ? Is the desktop really dying? Yes. > ? I accept you can do email on a Blackberry, but can you do serious work on one. ?For any kind of documentation, I go looking for the largest screen I can. ?This is absolutely necessary for CAD and for spreadsheets. ?It is less critical for word processing, although I love having two documents side by side up on my screen. See what I said about the computer being your cellphone and connecting it to a bigger, "empty" device to do that. > ? How secure is the cloud? ?If I want something secure, it goes on _my_ computer, and it stays there. ?The application is contained within my computer too. ?When I see free stuff offered by servers, I want to know where their revenue stream comes from. Ok, step back a little and think about the configuration of your first computer. If you had an Apple II or one of the first IBM PCs, probably your wristwatch has more processing power than that. If we're talking 386 or even a Pentium, well... my cellphone has more power *and* memory than that. Now think how things are going to be 5 years from now. Yep, the desktop is dead a doornail. - Fabio -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 05:32:25 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 01:32:25 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: As described in another TLUG email thread, the major UI change in the Netbook version of Ubuntu is a horrible step in the wrong direction unless you have a touchscreen system. After installing it Friday on my EeePC I am quickly looking to either revert to 10.04, or try the Kubuntu netbook system which appears to be more conventional. In this case immaturity may be an asset! The attempt by Canonical to get into tablet space at the expense of its existing netbook users is IMO a serious mistake and cannot succeed, Even Meego -- itself a cartoonish-looking also-ran in a crowded field of handheld and tablet OSs -- looks better at this point. Usually the Ubuntu team has had its strategy right but the 10.10 netbook is IMO one massive fail. OTOH, I've upgraded my Kubuntu desktops to 10.10 and the improvements, while incremental and often subtle, are noticeable and all positive. A serious video-card stability problem with one of my systems _appears_ to have been corrected by the update and for that I am grateful. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 13:17:15 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 09:17:15 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:40:50 -0400 > Fabio FZero wrote: > >> ... >> >> But I would worry too much, since the desktop itself is kind of dying >> too. Things are changing, people. That's not necessarily bad. >> >> - Fabio > > Fabio, > > ? Is the desktop really dying? > > ? I accept you can do email on a Blackberry, but can you do serious work on one. ?For any kind of documentation, I go looking for the largest screen I can. ?This is absolutely necessary for CAD and for spreadsheets. ?It is less critical for word processing, although I love having two documents side by side up on my screen. > > ? How secure is the cloud? ?If I want something secure, it goes on _my_ computer, and it stays there. ?The application is contained within my computer too. ?When I see free stuff offered by servers, I want to know where their revenue stream comes from. > The cloud is not an all or nothing proposition. Of course everyone will have files that they store at home, but these days that is moving toward home NAS setups, away from the desktop PC. There are so many advantages to the cloud that have nothing to do with storage of your files, like greater processing power than you could ever contain in a home PC, and of course the collaborative and sharing aspects. No one is saying you have to upload your entire life to the web, but the desktop PC is quickly becoming unnecessary. All you really need at home is storage, an internet connection and a web browser. There is no logical reason at all to trust an application running on your home PC more than one running from the cloud, unless I suppose you wrote and built it yourself from the ground up. The way I see it, the desktop PC is slowly having most of its traditional roles replaced by more specialized devices, which is very desirable in a lot of ways, particularly when it comes to mobility obviously. Not to predict the future (ha), but it's possible we may be headed for a return to the 'dumb terminal' days, or something resembling that. The desktop PC, remember, came about when networks were barely off the ground in terms of availability. You had to have everything on your desktop because it was prohibitively expensive to get connected. Now the network is everywhere and it is almost free, so the desktop PC starts to make far less sense. -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From David.Collier-Brown-ghy6y1RO5ssFyWsGDH9TEg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 13:19:35 2010 From: David.Collier-Brown-ghy6y1RO5ssFyWsGDH9TEg at public.gmane.org (Collier-Brown, David (LNG-CAN)) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 09:19:35 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On the other hand, the big screen and quality keyboard still live on my desk, and get plugged into the moderately small device I carry around. The server they used to be plugged into is now headless and on the shelf in the corner. --dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Fabio FZero Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 11:39 PM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 23:04, Howard Gibson wrote: > Fabio, > > ? Is the desktop really dying? Yes. > ? I accept you can do email on a Blackberry, but can you do serious work on one. ?For any kind of documentation, I go looking for the largest screen I can. ?This is absolutely necessary for CAD and for spreadsheets. ?It is less critical for word processing, although I love having two documents side by side up on my screen. See what I said about the computer being your cellphone and connecting it to a bigger, "empty" device to do that. > ? How secure is the cloud? ?If I want something secure, it goes on _my_ computer, and it stays there. ?The application is contained within my computer too. ?When I see free stuff offered by servers, I want to know where their revenue stream comes from. Ok, step back a little and think about the configuration of your first computer. If you had an Apple II or one of the first IBM PCs, probably your wristwatch has more processing power than that. If we're talking 386 or even a Pentium, well... my cellphone has more power *and* memory than that. Now think how things are going to be 5 years from now. Yep, the desktop is dead a doornail. - Fabio -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 14:26:45 2010 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Howard Gibson wrote: > On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:40:50 -0400 > Fabio FZero wrote: > >> ... >> >> But I would worry too much, since the desktop itself is kind of dying >> too. Things are changing, people. That's not necessarily bad. >> >> - Fabio > > Fabio, > > Is the desktop really dying? Not until portable devices have 24" screens. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 14:56:09 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:56:09 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Howard Gibson wrote: > >> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:40:50 -0400 >> Fabio FZero wrote: >> >>> ... >>> >>> But I would worry too much, since the desktop itself is kind of dying >>> too. Things are changing, people. That's not necessarily bad. >>> >>> - Fabio >> >> Fabio, >> >> ?Is the desktop really dying? > > ? Not until portable devices have 24" screens. Well, here is a pocket size device that does a 100" screen: www.microvision.com/showwx/ Extreme mini video projectors might not be an ideal example, you still need to find a white wall, in dim room light to project the image onto. Still, point is even right now for a big screen you don't have to be tied to a desktop. Also, projector technology is getting better. Further, other alternate display technologies are getting up there like ePaper (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_paper) mean that leaving the desktop for portable devices is getting easier... What I see as a sticking point AT THE MOMENT is text entry tools, decent keyboards are a pain to lug, voice recognition and other "alternate" text entry tools are not YET up to the task of large scale text entry. Still, 5-10 years down the road, who knows... Colin McGregor > -- > ? Chris F.A. Johnson, > ? Author: > ? Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) > ? Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 15:12:34 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:12:34 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20101019151234.GF12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:56:09AM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Well, here is a pocket size device that does a 100" screen: > > www.microvision.com/showwx/ Quote: "High resolution (WVGA 848x480) brings out every detail" What idiot marketing person decided 848x480 could be called high resolution and to claim it brings out every detail especially at 100" projected screen size. It is a completely useless joke of a projector. I just put up with the 1680x1050 display on my laptop. My desktop has 1920x1200 which I consider minimum for a workable display. Going back to the resolutions of VGA 20 years ago is nothing but a joke. > Extreme mini video projectors might not be an ideal example, you still > need to find a white wall, in dim room light to project the image > onto. Still, point is even right now for a big screen you don't have > to be tied to a desktop. Also, projector technology is getting better. > Further, other alternate display technologies are getting up there > like ePaper (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_paper) mean that leaving > the desktop for portable devices is getting easier... > > What I see as a sticking point AT THE MOMENT is text entry tools, > decent keyboards are a pain to lug, voice recognition and other > "alternate" text entry tools are not YET up to the task of large scale > text entry. Still, 5-10 years down the road, who knows... -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 15:37:26 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:37:26 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Howard Gibson wrote: > ? Is the desktop really dying? > > ? I accept you can do email on a Blackberry, but can you do serious work on one. ?For any kind of documentation, I go looking for the largest screen I can. ?This is absolutely necessary for CAD and for spreadsheets. ?It is less critical for word processing, although I love having two documents side by side up on my screen. > > ? How secure is the cloud? ?If I want something secure, it goes on _my_ computer, and it stays there. ?The application is contained within my computer too. ?When I see free stuff offered by servers, I want to know where their revenue stream comes from. Both of these factors point to the notion that this isn't a strict thing. -> There's certainly still a place for large screens and keyboards. -> This doesn't prevent there from also being a place for: - Tablets that are fairly large, with a preference for touch-sensitivity - Tiny devices (e.g. - mobile phones). Entertainingly, I just figured out, the other day, that the latest release of my phone's software (CyanogenMod version 6) at last natively supports Bluetooth keyboards, with the consequence that I can hook a fullscale keyboard up to my cell phone. The screen's still microscopic, but hey, steps ahead are a good thing, and the story certainly isn't done. A number of recent Android phones offer HDMI output (Acer Stream, Dell Streak, HTC Evo, Motorola Droid X, Motorola XT720), which is promising. No doubt tablets will have a higher propensity of this. In the end, it's not clear what one would carry in one's pocket. - 32GB of storage isn't outlandish now, but having storage "in the cloud" isn't outlandish either. - GHz of meaningless processor cycles are getting to be available on-board; connecting to CPU cycles either nearby or afar off, in the cloud, isn't outlandish. - Obviously you can't have a big screen or keyboard in your pocket, but those are getting to be readily connectible. What you *really* need, when mobile, are the 'keys to the kingdom,' the pointers to enable access to your data, wherever it may be. That'll fit trivially onto a 1GB USB stick, so the debate falls all around "how much more do you want to carry?" Which bits are necessity and which are "nice to have" fall into a matter of taste, to a considerable extent. I suppose the question is, what needs to be on the "server in my pocket?" The amount of storage and CPU horsepower available on mobile phones is steadily increasing, so there's room for a fair bit of "matter of taste." As for "trusting the cloud," that's also, to a degree, a matter of taste. Entrusting *everything* to The GooglePlex doesn't seem notably wise, even if one holds to a most optimistic view as to their "corporate morality." But in the whole "Web 2.0" realm, we're seeing more and more applications where responsibility, and hence risk, is increasingly widely distributed. Pointing simply at apps on my Android phone, I have: a) An application manager (AppBrain) which uses a Google authentication API, but which seems otherwise separate from them; b) A weight tracker that uses some XML-RPC-like interface to connect and sync data to a web framework-based system, again, nothing to do with Google; c) An SMS backup system, available in source code form, which happens to sync my messages into IMAP folders; d) Twitter's a separate service, obviously; e) I use "Shuffle" for ToDo list, which syncs against a Ruby-on-Rails-based web app called Tracks; f) ThinkingSpace is a diagrammer tool that interoperates with FreeMind and MindJet, and allows pushing docs "thru the cloud." Not sure how much I want to trust the operators of Appspot.com with my data; I'm not too comfortable with this one... We may discover that there are only a small fraction of documents or applications that *truly* need big screens and local storage. I don't have a super answer to that yet. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 17:10:41 2010 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 13:10:41 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux: The Dream Is Dead In-Reply-To: References: <20101018230457.06c1b4fa.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4CBDD111.3080104@the-wire.com> On 10-10-19 10:56 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Extreme mini video projectors might not be an ideal example, you still > need to find a white wall, in dim room light to project the image > onto. Blank wall space -- tragedy of the commons -- or collaboration tool? Film at 11, over there. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 18:34:28 2010 From: ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org (Ken Heard) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 14:34:28 -0400 Subject: Posting to TLUG Message-ID: <4CBDE4B4.40801@heard.name> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Does it work? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAky95LIACgkQlNlJzOkJmTfSWQCfdMsU2STnUvAFapHIYVeq8X4c TgMAnAs4YMiCxPNTNAyD5aDfcgvvaYih =w7xU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 18:37:30 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 14:37:30 -0400 Subject: Posting to TLUG In-Reply-To: <4CBDE4B4.40801-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBDE4B4.40801@heard.name> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Ken Heard wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Does it work? Nope, doesn't work, I never heard of you :-) . Colin McGregor > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAky95LIACgkQlNlJzOkJmTfSWQCfdMsU2STnUvAFapHIYVeq8X4c > TgMAnAs4YMiCxPNTNAyD5aDfcgvvaYih > =w7xU > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 18:43:56 2010 From: ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org (Ken Heard) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 14:43:56 -0400 Subject: Posting to TLUG In-Reply-To: <4CBDE4B4.40801-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBDE4B4.40801@heard.name> Message-ID: <4CBDE6EC.5050709@heard.name> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ken Heard wrote: > Does it work? Please ignore message. I sent it because last January I tried to post a message to TLUG. My message was refused, and the refusal message explained why. I have not been able to find that message, but it had to do -- I think -- with using an unauthenticated e-mail address. I used the same e-mail address which I am using for this message. All messages used by that address are then forwarded to my teksavvy address. A few minutes ago I opened an account on gtalug.org using the same e-mail address: ken-qoNZw2a/gFtdfMqftFriWw at public.gmane.org The website asked my to confirm it; I did so. On a hunch I sent a message from ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org to the list; it was accepted. So it appears that by opening an account a confirming my .name e-mail address I can now post to this list. Regards, Ken Heard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAky95uoACgkQlNlJzOkJmTeozwCfX65OwVbtqCa3vvnbXDKbEV10 tcYAniSlZkVRXtl6TgO7mF0yqInFevcS =H6o3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 19:07:55 2010 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:07:55 -0400 Subject: PGP provides nonrepudiation, but... In-Reply-To: <4CBDE4B4.40801-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBDE4B4.40801@heard.name> Message-ID: <4CBDEC8B.6050303@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Does it work? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAky95LIACgkQlNlJzOkJmTfSWQCfdMsU2STnUvAFapHIYVeq8X4c TgMAnAs4YMiCxPNTNAyD5aDfcgvvaYih =w7xU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- (Sorry Ken, I couldn't resist, FWIW, I love PGP) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 19:13:21 2010 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 12:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Posting to TLUG In-Reply-To: <4CBDE6EC.5050709-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBDE4B4.40801@heard.name> <4CBDE6EC.5050709@heard.name> Message-ID: <800173.37320.qm@web113404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ken Heard > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 2:43:56 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Posting to TLUG > A few minutes ago I opened an account on gtalug.org using the same > e-mail address: ken-qoNZw2a/gFtdfMqftFriWw at public.gmane.org The website asked my to confirm it; I > did so. I didn't know TLUG gave out free email accounts? -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 18:49:08 2010 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 22:49:08 +0400 Subject: PGP provides nonrepudiation, but... In-Reply-To: <4CBDEC8B.6050303-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBDE4B4.40801@heard.name> <4CBDEC8B.6050303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CBDE824.3060400@gmail.com> Could not you make your PGP tests privately? On 19/10/10 11:07 PM, Mike Kallies wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Does it work? > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAky95LIACgkQlNlJzOkJmTfSWQCfdMsU2STnUvAFapHIYVeq8X4c > TgMAnAs4YMiCxPNTNAyD5aDfcgvvaYih > =w7xU > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > (Sorry Ken, I couldn't resist, FWIW, I love PGP) > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 19:20:54 2010 From: ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org (Ken Heard) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:20:54 -0400 Subject: Posting to TLUG In-Reply-To: <800173.37320.qm-CtIdhJAQs3MA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBDE4B4.40801@heard.name> <4CBDE6EC.5050709@heard.name> <800173.37320.qm@web113404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CBDEF96.70303@heard.name> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 William Park wrote: > I didn't know TLUG gave out free email accounts? The e-mail address ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org I pay $30 a year for. Included in that amount is hosting for that address. I have that host forward e-mails sent to the address assigned to me by the particular ISP I happen to be using at the time. So if, as and when I change ISP and am assigned a new e-mail address, I simply change the forwarding address; I consequently do not have to inform my correspondents of a new e-mail address. Regards, Ken Heard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAky975QACgkQlNlJzOkJmTdnpACfcB6zQVa3NxMdAxDXpz/7hyJY gP8An3VY4lxIVOoonJVgnHNvrzHjhBhX =vBjK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 19:27:37 2010 From: ken-qoNZw2a/gFtBDLzU/O5InQ at public.gmane.org (Ken Heard) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:27:37 -0400 Subject: MP Letter. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBDF129.8040700@heard.name> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Colin McGregor wrote: > Remember that you do NOT need to put a stamp on letters being sent to > your member of parliament. But only if the letter is addressed to them at the House of Commons, Ottawa -- not to the constituency office or their Ottawa office which may not be on Parliament Hill. Ken Heard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEUEARECAAYFAky98SgACgkQlNlJzOkJmTeE8ACXcHp7Hg7ZqwFWLR0r3sNbKI7o WwCfXfkSPK2dd3dwuUv1nkPqp2xmCpo= =1TvB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 19:56:17 2010 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:56:17 -0400 Subject: OT: websites calling external scripts Message-ID: I know this isn't strictly the correct list for this, but I know a number of you work in web development and I respect the knowledge of the people on this list. So I thought I'd give this a try. I'm trying to create a comprehensive (hah!) list of external scripts called by a website I'm working on. As it's developed by a number of people and we use several technologies, this isn't simple. Of course as soon as you call someone else's JavaScript you allow the possibility of their calling someone else's site entirely, and calls like that can change at their whim - so any list I manage to create is transitory. What I'd like is an application like Xenu Link Sleuth (http://home.snafu.de/tilman/xenulink.html) that spiders a site and lists off all calls required to load the web page that aren't on the primary host. So far the best I've managed is looking at pages loading in Firefox with the Firebug plug-in: its "Net" tab shows all the calls made during page load. But this would require crawling hundreds of pages by hand - extremely error-prone and tedious. Possible solutions for a site-wide crawl would seem to call for a good deal of scripting, which A) I probably won't be given time for and B) may still be re-inventing the wheel. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 20:35:35 2010 From: alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:35:35 +0000 Subject: Meetings Message-ID: <93457933-1287520534-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-814931893-@bda695.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Hey all, just a general question on the GTALUG group meetings. I see there was a meeting last week, and another scheduled for next month. I'd dropped into Linuxcaffe on the weekend but didn't notice a whole lot going on, so I didn't stick around overly long. Given that I've never been out to any gatherings, how frequently are they held, or is it random? Alex Gabriel Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 20:52:56 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:52:56 -0400 Subject: Meetings In-Reply-To: <93457933-1287520534-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-814931893--6MQWB4Gd5KvjL2gL5RxOEzYg3SYOavFBmZ6FRVpaDsI@public.gmane.org> References: <93457933-1287520534-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-814931893-@bda695.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Alex Gabriel wrote: > Hey all, just a general question on the GTALUG group meetings. I see there was a meeting last week, and another scheduled for next month. GTALug meets on the 2nd Tuesday of each month and has used that meeting date for over a decade. Now, there are a number of other groups that are Linux related, as far I I know the follow list is complete on that score (and if there are any missing, let me know, I'll add them): http://gtalug.org/wiki/Toronto_opensource_computing_groups > I'd dropped into Linuxcaffe on the weekend but didn't notice a whole lot going on, so I didn't stick around overly long. > > Given that I've never been out to any gatherings, how frequently are they held, or is it random? GTALug and most of the other groups are anything but random. They have schedules they keep pretty close to... Colin. > Alex Gabriel > > Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 19 20:57:37 2010 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:57:37 -0400 Subject: Information Technology Infrastructure Library course? In-Reply-To: <20101007221723.GA5067-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101007221723.GA5067@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: William, How is your afternoon. I am taking an earlier offer you made on advising how to go about taking above course. Hope you have not yet changed your mind! > > You may be looking for something taught at U of T's Faculty of > Information (caveat - I am a 2005 Masters grad). ?Here is the course > list. > > http://www.ischool.utoronto.ca/programs-courses/courses Hmm, I went through the list and I could not see anything named ITIL. I am sure there is a reason you pointed me here, but I am at a loss at which class would be pertinent to my needs. > > If you decide to apply, drop me a note offlist to hear more about my > experience and see if I have any advice about tuning an application (if > you want). Thanks for the offer. I appreciate a lot. I assume you like the instructor as you seem happy to be associated with the school. Would this be correct? Do i need to find all the requirements for masters student applicant considering all I need is ITIL certificate? I mean, I do not intend to be a matriculating student. And how would you advice to approach the application now that you have the inside knowledge about the school. > -- > > yours, > > William > Thank you William > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFMrkbzHQtmiuz+KT8RAoR3AJ90JTRKD/jaNqq2vuKaiyOdACOyZgCeIWhq > 7RBIDYpg29ANKvkrKYhFQvA= > =RO3g > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 20 12:56:49 2010 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 08:56:49 -0400 Subject: Dell 27" monitor on sale Message-ID: OT, but we've covered this territory before: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=bsd&cs=cabsdt1&sku=224-8284 27" monitor, 2560 x 1440. May even be Lennart-approved! (Oh am I going to catch it if it's not ...) On special today for $779. Damn I want that - but I just got back from a bank-emptying vacation. And it does seem to come up for sale every few months. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 20 13:02:11 2010 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 09:02:11 -0400 Subject: looking for someone to provide support for Zimbra Message-ID: Have a friend running zimbra, she is looking for an admin to take care of it, probably 5 hrs / week. Dave Cramer VP Software Development Visible Assets Inc. www.visibleassets.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 20 15:44:58 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:44:58 -0400 Subject: Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101020154458.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 08:56:49AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > OT, but we've covered this territory before: > > http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=bsd&cs=cabsdt1&sku=224-8284 > > 27" monitor, 2560 x 1440. May even be Lennart-approved! (Oh am I > going to catch it if it's not ...) > > On special today for $779. > > Damn I want that - but I just got back from a bank-emptying vacation. > And it does seem to come up for sale every few months. It is a very nice screen. Not quite as huge as the 2560x1600 16:10 30" (3008WFP), but almost as high a resolution (simply a 16:9 version instead). Best price I have ever seen the 30" on sale is $1500, so getting 90% of that screen (just about) for about half that is quite nice. The old 27" was just a 1920x1200 16:10 PVA screen (quite nice and all), but this one is an IPS panel and high res. It will NOT make a good TV, but it does make a really nice monitor. Yeah I would love one, but I am dropping $1000 on a timing belt change on my car today, and really don't need another monitor just now. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 20 16:55:07 2010 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:55:07 -0400 Subject: Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBF1EEB.5000407@alteeve.com> On 10-10-20 08:56 AM, Giles Orr wrote: > OT, but we've covered this territory before: > > http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=bsd&cs=cabsdt1&sku=224-8284 > > 27" monitor, 2560 x 1440. May even be Lennart-approved! (Oh am I > going to catch it if it's not ...) > > On special today for $779. > > Damn I want that - but I just got back from a bank-emptying vacation. > And it does seem to come up for sale every few months. > Oh. My. God. The number of terminals I could have open on that thing... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 20 17:26:42 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:26:42 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: Followup: I've installed the Kubuntu Netbook configuration on the netbook (pretty simple to do) and it's pretty impressive. Generally, it's standard KDE (which has minor tweak updates in 10.10) with just a few (useful) added tools to help folks with smaller screens. So I'm very happy with it. But that "Unity" UI in Ubuntu Netbook Edition just bites. - Evan On 19 October 2010 01:32, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > As described in another TLUG email thread, the major UI change in the > Netbook version of Ubuntu is a horrible step in the wrong direction unless > you have a touchscreen system. After installing it Friday on my EeePC I am > quickly looking to either revert to 10.04, or try the Kubuntu netbook system > which appears to be more conventional. In this case immaturity may be an > asset! > > The attempt by Canonical to get into tablet space at the expense of its > existing netbook users is IMO a serious mistake and cannot succeed, Even > Meego -- itself a cartoonish-looking also-ran in a crowded field of handheld > and tablet OSs -- looks better at this point. Usually the Ubuntu team has > had its strategy right but the 10.10 netbook is IMO one massive fail. > > OTOH, I've upgraded my Kubuntu desktops to 10.10 and the improvements, > while incremental and often subtle, are noticeable and all positive. A > serious video-card stability problem with one of my systems _appears_ to > have been corrected by the update and for that I am grateful. > > - Evan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 20 17:32:53 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: high-spec Dell netbook; Re: Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: <20101020154458.GG12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101020154458.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Another interesting Dell netbook deal. - $379 for the next couple of days, so not cheap + 1366x768 resolution 10" screen + Crystal HD Broadcom Media Accelerator + bluetooth (but why does it mention USB?) + 250GB disk + 6-cell battery - looks like wireless is only G, not N - only 1GiB RAM - only 10/100M ethernet Evan: get one so you can ditch netbook remixes :-) | From: Lennart Sorensen | It is a very nice screen. Not quite as huge as the 2560x1600 16:10 | 30" (3008WFP), but almost as high a resolution (simply a 16:9 version | instead). Best price I have ever seen the 30" on sale is $1500, so | getting 90% of that screen (just about) for about half that is quite nice. | It will NOT make a good TV, but it does make a really nice monitor. I posted a deal for a different Dell 30" for $900 June of 2009. You didn't like it because it could only do two resolutions (no scaler). I think that only really matters if you want it as a TV. I'm happy with my older Dell 30". I would not like to lose the 10% height. A quick look suggests that Dell's only 30" is the U3011 now ($1599, not on sale). | Yeah I would love one, but I am dropping $1000 on a timing belt change | on my car today, and really don't need another monitor just now. :) Bad timing, eh? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 20 18:12:52 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 14:12:52 -0400 Subject: high-spec Dell netbook; Re: Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: References: <20101020154458.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101020181252.GH12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 01:32:53PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Another interesting Dell netbook deal. > > > - $379 for the next couple of days, so not cheap > + 1366x768 resolution 10" screen > + Crystal HD Broadcom Media Accelerator > + bluetooth (but why does it mention USB?) > + 250GB disk > + 6-cell battery > - looks like wireless is only G, not N > - only 1GiB RAM > - only 10/100M ethernet > > Evan: get one so you can ditch netbook remixes :-) But that's a Dell computer. Sane people don't buy those. Something like the new Asus EeePC 1015PN looks much better (faster graphics, faster CPU (dual core atom), better wifi, USB 3, etc). Yeah the screen is only 1024x600 unfortunately, but nvidia ion2 graphics and a ridiculous battery life and being an asus rather than a dell certainly makes a difference. Assuming you think 10" netbooks are useful in the first place. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From pwong33-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 02:54:34 2010 From: pwong33-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter Wong) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 22:54:34 -0400 Subject: looking for someone to provide support for Zimbra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, I am interested in this opportunity & would like details. I have 17 years of development experience on Unix platforms & now heavily into learning Linux with a goal of getting into admin work since getting laid off last year (have not done admin work before). I am in the north end of Burlington. Thanks. Peter Wong 905-319-7030 On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Dave Cramer wrote: > Have a friend running zimbra, she is looking for an admin to take care > of it, probably 5 hrs / week. > > Dave Cramer > VP Software Development > Visible Assets Inc. > www.visibleassets.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 03:10:05 2010 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 23:10:05 -0400 Subject: maybe OT? apache configuration Message-ID: Hi folks, ok, so I have an ubuntu server running multiple wordpress sites; so I have the file wordpress-sites in /etc/apache2/sites-available, containing the following fairly straightforward code: ------------------- ## Virtual host VirtualDocumentRoot Options FollowSymLinks AllowOverride All UseCanonicalName Off VirtualDocumentRoot /var/www/%0 Options All #ServerAdmin admin-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org # Store uploads in /var/www/wp-uploads/$0 RewriteEngine On RewriteRule ^/wp-uploads/(.*)$ /var/www/wp-uploads/%{HTTP_HOST}/$1 ------------------------ now I would like to try a drupal site on the same server (actually, the drupal commons install profile). This works fine with the following code in /etc/apache2/conf.d/drupal-commons: --------------------------- Alias /drupal-commons /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons Options +FollowSymLinks AllowOverride All order allow,deny allow from all ------------------------------ except, of course, that this makes the default drupal site show up as a subdirectory of any site mapped to the server! not what I want. The problem is that I can't see how to combine the dynamic virtual host method with old fashioned static virtual hosts, e.g. like this: DocumentRoot /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons ServerName drupal.commons.site.hostname but, and here's my problem, if I put this stanza below the dynamic stanzas I already have, then they're pre-empted by the *wildcard blogging; but if I put the new stanza ahead of the old dynamic stuff, _SURPRISE_, now any site hosted at this ip address suddenly get served up the drupal commons site! i don't really understand why that happens -- surely the ServerName directive is supposed to limit the application of the directive? Can anyone offer me any guidance? Thanks as always, Matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 04:19:29 2010 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 00:19:29 -0400 Subject: Are you running Linux as your desktop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101021001929.19f1f815.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 21:47:14 -0400 Colin McGregor wrote: > Just to note, the following folks are attempting to refute the claim > that Linux is on less than 1% of all desktops... If you are running > Linux on your desktop PC you may want to add your vote: > > http://www.dudalibre.com/gnulinuxcounter?lang=en 0.0186248% and counting! :( The Windows machines have virii that automatically log in and vote. That is my story, and I am sticking to it. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 12:18:04 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 08:18:04 -0400 Subject: Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: <4CBF1EEB.5000407-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBF1EEB.5000407@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4CC02F7C.3070309@rogers.com> Digimer wrote: > The number of terminals I could have open on that thing... > I have a 23" 1080p monitor. While not quite the same resolution as that Dell, it's nice to have all that real estate. One thing that's nice is having two documents up, side by side, at the same time. I often have 30-40 windows open at the same time. I previously used a 15" 1024 x 768 monitor. When I first got the 23" monitor, it took some getting used to all the space. I also have a HD terminal connected to it, so I can use it as a TV in my "office". -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 13:00:14 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:00:14 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade Message-ID: I ran an apt-get upgrade and for the first time ever (testament to the perfection of Debian) I got an error: Preparing to replace lives-data 1:1.0.0-0.0 (using .../lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb) ... Unpacking replacement lives-data ... dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb (--unpack): trying to overwrite '/usr/bin/build-lives-rfx-plugin', which is also in package lives 1:1.0.0-0.0 Errors were encountered while processing: /var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) Tried Google, but not sure what part of that to google, mostly get no hits. It looks like I've got a permissions problem, it can't overwrite the old binaries? First time I've ever run into this, so I'm lost. Any hints? Thanks! -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 13:00:38 2010 From: andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org (Andrew Cowie) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:00:38 +0200 Subject: high-spec Dell netbook; Re: Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: References: <20101020154458.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1287666038.12154.11.camel@worthil.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 13:32 -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > + 1366x768 resolution 10" screen > + Crystal HD Broadcom Media Accelerator Any idea what the driver for that is? Is it something proprietary & wrapped (like the original Broadcom wireless devices), or is it well supported but closed (NVidia), or it something well supported but open (ie most of Intel's graphics chips)? AfC A Coru?a -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics is an operations and engineering consultancy focusing on IT strategy, organizational architecture, systems review, and effective procedures for change management: enabling successful deployment of mission critical information technology in enterprises, worldwide. http://www.operationaldynamics.com/ Sydney New York Toronto London -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 15:17:53 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:17:53 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > I ran an apt-get upgrade and for the first time ever (testament to the > perfection of Debian) I got an error: > > Preparing to replace lives-data 1:1.0.0-0.0 (using > .../lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb) ... > Unpacking replacement lives-data ... > dpkg: error processing > /var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb (--unpack): > ?trying to overwrite '/usr/bin/build-lives-rfx-plugin', which is also > in package lives 1:1.0.0-0.0 > Errors were encountered while processing: > ?/var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb > E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) > > Tried Google, but not sure what part of that to google, mostly get no > hits. It looks like I've got a permissions problem, it can't overwrite > the old binaries? > > First time I've ever run into this, so I'm lost. Any hints? It is somewhat self-explanatory... That particular file is in two packages, which conflicts. You might resolve this by de-installing the offending packages, and installing "fresh" the stuff you want. Perhaps a bug needs to be reported. You could use reportbug to do so. You can cause the new .deb to overwrite the file from the other package via: dpkg -i whatever.deb --force-overwrite See the force options: root at cbbrowne:~# dpkg --force-help dpkg forcing options - control behaviour when problems found: warn but continue: --force-,,... stop with error: --refuse-,,... | --no-force-,... Forcing things: all [!] Set all force options downgrade [*] Replace a package with a lower version configure-any Configure any package which may help this one hold Process incidental packages even when on hold bad-path PATH is missing important programs, problems likely not-root Try to (de)install things even when not root overwrite Overwrite a file from one package with another overwrite-diverted Overwrite a diverted file with an undiverted version bad-verify Install a package even if it fails authenticity check depends-version [!] Turn dependency version problems into warnings depends [!] Turn all dependency problems into warnings confnew [!] Always use the new config files, don't prompt confold [!] Always use the old config files, don't prompt confdef [!] Use the default option for new config files if one is available, don't prompt. If no default can be found, you will be prompted unless one of the confold or confnew options is also given confmiss [!] Always install missing config files confask [!] Offer to replace config files with no new versions breaks [!] Install even if it would break another package conflicts [!] Allow installation of conflicting packages architecture [!] Process even packages with wrong architecture overwrite-dir [!] Overwrite one package's directory with another's file remove-reinstreq [!] Remove packages which require installation remove-essential [!] Remove an essential package WARNING - use of options marked [!] can seriously damage your installation. Forcing options marked [*] are enabled by default. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 15:59:28 2010 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:59:28 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re:Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: <4CC02F7C.3070309-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBF1EEB.5000407@alteeve.com> <4CC02F7C.3070309@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CC06360.9000109@rogers.com> On 21/10/10 8:18 AM, James Knott wrote: > ... I also have a HD terminal connected to it, so I can use > it as a TV in my "office". What is an HD terminal? Is it a TV receiver? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 16:18:36 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: high-spec Dell netbook; Re: Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: <1287666038.12154.11.camel-p7aX53JaVWoe/2IRKz1ZWdih8TpMrEp6psu3eQ5ks+k5UWNf+nJyDw@public.gmane.org> References: <20101020154458.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1287666038.12154.11.camel@worthil.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> Message-ID: | From: Andrew Cowie | On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 13:32 -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > + 1366x768 resolution 10" screen | > + Crystal HD Broadcom Media Accelerator | | Any idea what the driver for that is? | | Is it something proprietary & wrapped (like the original Broadcom | wireless devices), or is it well supported but closed (NVidia), or it | something well supported but open (ie most of Intel's graphics chips)? >From Jarod Wilson of MythTV and Red Hat: In this case, Broadcom have been very open. Not sure why. See What's it good for? Accelerating hardware decoding of video formats (I'm not sure which ones). Support seems to be needed in each application that might use it. MythTV and XBMC are current targets (according to Jarod's page). The Atom isn't good enough to do HD video decoding via software. Nor is the old AppleTV. The Broadcom Crystal has been used to advantage in both platforms. My suspicion is that the nVidia ION is a better choice for this purpose but that isn't an educated opinion. But the nVidia driver is not open-source. And the Crystal comes in forms that can be added to machines after you buy them (eg. minipci card). Anecdote: my daughter says that her netbook with an Atom and a 1366x768 display driven by Intel chipset, under Linux, doesn't let her watch youtube TV shows well. I suspect that with an ordinary netbook display of 1024x600, the performance might be OK. Unfortunately, the Flash under Linux is unlikely to use the Broadcom device. Heck, it doesn't even exploit the nVidia ION (as I've whined about in a previous message). The Windows version of Flash does exploit the ION. Grrr. Perhaps Dell's Win7 has a way to exploit the Crystal with Flash. Lots of interesting stuff if you google. I've not absorbed it all. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 16:42:40 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:42:40 -0400 Subject: high-spec Dell netbook; Re: Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: <1287666038.12154.11.camel-p7aX53JaVWoe/2IRKz1ZWdih8TpMrEp6psu3eQ5ks+k5UWNf+nJyDw@public.gmane.org> References: <20101020154458.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1287666038.12154.11.camel@worthil.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> Message-ID: <20101021164240.GI12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 03:00:38PM +0200, Andrew Cowie wrote: > Any idea what the driver for that is? The mythtv mailing list taked about it recently. Apparently there are drivers for it, whatever it is. > Is it something proprietary & wrapped (like the original Broadcom > wireless devices), or is it well supported but closed (NVidia), or it > something well supported but open (ie most of Intel's graphics chips)? Well lately broadcom has actually been getting nicer to opensource it seems. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 16:44:26 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:44:26 -0400 Subject: high-spec Dell netbook; Re: Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: References: <20101020154458.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1287666038.12154.11.camel@worthil.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> Message-ID: <20101021164426.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:18:36PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > From Jarod Wilson of MythTV and Red Hat: > > > > In this case, Broadcom have been very open. Not sure why. See > > > What's it good for? Accelerating hardware decoding of video formats > (I'm not sure which ones). > > Support seems to be needed in each application that might use it. > MythTV and XBMC are current targets (according to Jarod's page). > > The Atom isn't good enough to do HD video decoding via software. Nor > is the old AppleTV. The Broadcom Crystal has been used to advantage > in both platforms. > > My suspicion is that the nVidia ION is a better choice for this > purpose but that isn't an educated opinion. But the nVidia driver is > not open-source. And the Crystal comes in forms that can be added to > machines after you buy them (eg. minipci card). For 3D and other things, the nvidia is most likely much more capable. But yes the drivers are not open source, and the free drivers will probably not be around any time soon. > Anecdote: my daughter says that her netbook with an Atom and a > 1366x768 display driven by Intel chipset, under Linux, doesn't let > her watch youtube TV shows well. I suspect that with an ordinary > netbook display of 1024x600, the performance might be OK. > > Unfortunately, the Flash under Linux is unlikely to use the Broadcom > device. Heck, it doesn't even exploit the nVidia ION (as I've whined > about in a previous message). The Windows version of Flash does > exploit the ION. Grrr. Perhaps Dell's Win7 has a way to exploit the > Crystal with Flash. Very likely. > Lots of interesting stuff if you google. I've not absorbed it all. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 16:48:02 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:48:02 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:00:14AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > I ran an apt-get upgrade and for the first time ever (testament to the > perfection of Debian) I got an error: > > Preparing to replace lives-data 1:1.0.0-0.0 (using > .../lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb) ... > Unpacking replacement lives-data ... > dpkg: error processing > /var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb (--unpack): > trying to overwrite '/usr/bin/build-lives-rfx-plugin', which is also > in package lives 1:1.0.0-0.0 > Errors were encountered while processing: > /var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb > E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) > > Tried Google, but not sure what part of that to google, mostly get no > hits. It looks like I've got a permissions problem, it can't overwrite > the old binaries? > > First time I've ever run into this, so I'm lost. Any hints? So a file has moved from one package to another and was not flagged properly (at least that's the normal cause). Try removing 'lives' then install lives-data and lives again. Make sure to file a bug report on the package too about the missing 'Replaces' flag. With the flag dpkg will know how to handle the moving of a file from one package to another by doing the ordering right. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 16:49:10 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:49:10 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101021164910.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:17:53AM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > It is somewhat self-explanatory... > > That particular file is in two packages, which conflicts. > > You might resolve this by de-installing the offending packages, and > installing "fresh" the stuff you want. > > Perhaps a bug needs to be reported. You could use reportbug to do so. > > You can cause the new .deb to overwrite the file from the other package via: > dpkg -i whatever.deb --force-overwrite > > See the force options: > root at cbbrowne:~# dpkg --force-help > dpkg forcing options - control behaviour when problems found: > warn but continue: --force-,,... > stop with error: --refuse-,,... | --no-force-,... > Forcing things: > all [!] Set all force options > downgrade [*] Replace a package with a lower version > configure-any Configure any package which may help this one > hold Process incidental packages even when on hold > bad-path PATH is missing important programs, problems likely > not-root Try to (de)install things even when not root > overwrite Overwrite a file from one package with another > overwrite-diverted Overwrite a diverted file with an undiverted version > bad-verify Install a package even if it fails authenticity check > depends-version [!] Turn dependency version problems into warnings > depends [!] Turn all dependency problems into warnings > confnew [!] Always use the new config files, don't prompt > confold [!] Always use the old config files, don't prompt > confdef [!] Use the default option for new config files if one > is available, don't prompt. If no default can be found, > you will be prompted unless one of the confold or > confnew options is also given > confmiss [!] Always install missing config files > confask [!] Offer to replace config files with no new versions > breaks [!] Install even if it would break another package > conflicts [!] Allow installation of conflicting packages > architecture [!] Process even packages with wrong architecture > overwrite-dir [!] Overwrite one package's directory with another's file > remove-reinstreq [!] Remove packages which require installation > remove-essential [!] Remove an essential package > > WARNING - use of options marked [!] can seriously damage your installation. > Forcing options marked [*] are enabled by default. Force should really never be used and is certainly unnecesary in this case. Simply removing one package before installing the update and the package again will work. But it is a package bug and should be reported of course. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 17:14:20 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 13:14:20 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: <20101021164802.GK12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:00:14AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> I ran an apt-get upgrade and for the first time ever (testament to the >> perfection of Debian) I got an error: >> >> Preparing to replace lives-data 1:1.0.0-0.0 (using >> .../lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb) ... >> Unpacking replacement lives-data ... >> dpkg: error processing >> /var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb (--unpack): >> ?trying to overwrite '/usr/bin/build-lives-rfx-plugin', which is also >> in package lives 1:1.0.0-0.0 >> Errors were encountered while processing: >> ?/var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb >> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) >> >> Tried Google, but not sure what part of that to google, mostly get no >> hits. It looks like I've got a permissions problem, it can't overwrite >> the old binaries? >> >> First time I've ever run into this, so I'm lost. Any hints? > > So a file has moved from one package to another and was not flagged > properly (at least that's the normal cause). > > Try removing 'lives' then install lives-data and lives again. > > Make sure to file a bug report on the package too about the missing > 'Replaces' flag. ?With the flag dpkg will know how to handle the moving > of a file from one package to another by doing the ordering right. > Excellent, that did it. Thankfully it's not some package with 400 dependencies, that could make a mess. Incredible that in a few years of use, this is the first time I've ever experienced an error like this. Now that's quality control. Thanks! -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 17:22:44 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 13:22:44 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: <20101021164802.GK12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:00:14AM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> I ran an apt-get upgrade and for the first time ever (testament to the >> perfection of Debian) I got an error: >> >> Preparing to replace lives-data 1:1.0.0-0.0 (using >> .../lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb) ... >> Unpacking replacement lives-data ... >> dpkg: error processing >> /var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb (--unpack): >> ?trying to overwrite '/usr/bin/build-lives-rfx-plugin', which is also >> in package lives 1:1.0.0-0.0 >> Errors were encountered while processing: >> ?/var/cache/apt/archives/lives-data_1%3a1.3.10-0.1_all.deb >> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) >> >> Tried Google, but not sure what part of that to google, mostly get no >> hits. It looks like I've got a permissions problem, it can't overwrite >> the old binaries? >> >> First time I've ever run into this, so I'm lost. Any hints? > > So a file has moved from one package to another and was not flagged > properly (at least that's the normal cause). > > Try removing 'lives' then install lives-data and lives again. > > Make sure to file a bug report on the package too about the missing > 'Replaces' flag. ?With the flag dpkg will know how to handle the moving > of a file from one package to another by doing the ordering right. > I forgot to mention one thing that really amazed me. As soon as I ran 'apt-get remove lives lives-data', the whole upgrade process that had choked on lives finished running automatically as soon as lives was removed. So cool. -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 17:50:59 2010 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 13:50:59 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 10.10 is Released In-Reply-To: References: <4CB19CE9.9040004@gmail.com> <4CB987FC.4010103@gmail.com> <20101017134126.1aa0ce8b.hgibson@eol.ca> <4CBB44E3.3000507@gmail.com> <4CBC0470.6000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Followup: > > I've installed the Kubuntu Netbook configuration on the netbook (pretty > simple to do) and it's pretty impressive. Generally, it's standard KDE > (which has minor tweak updates in 10.10) with just a few (useful) added > tools to help folks with smaller screens. > > So I'm very happy with it. But that "Unity" UI in Ubuntu Netbook Edition > just bites. > > - Evan for xfce fans, I completed a fresh install of Xubuntu x86_64 10.10 on my spare old laptop and it's sweet, the nice thing I found it that it detected my wireless hardware and the chipset on my laptop and asked me if I wanted to install the driver, the install was painless. if you like xfce this is worth checking out. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav | DevMentor.org | Do Good! ~ Share Freely GNU/Linux: 2.6.35-22-generic Kubuntu x86_64 10.10 | KDE 4.5.1 Ruby 1.9.2p0 | Rails 3.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 18:59:45 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:59:45 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101021185945.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 01:14:20PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > Excellent, that did it. Thankfully it's not some package with 400 > dependencies, that could make a mess. Incredible that in a few years > of use, this is the first time I've ever experienced an error like > this. Now that's quality control. If you run unstable you see it occationally. In testing it should almost never happen. Certainly in stable it does not happen. This appears to be a somewhat infrequently used package, so it could have slipped through to testing. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 19:22:18 2010 From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:22:18 -0400 Subject: Embedded Linux Virtual Conference On Now Message-ID: <1287688938.22155.4.camel@jimslaptop> You would probably have to register or if you are registered with EETimes, login ID is your email address and password is eetconference . Here is the link . https://vts.inxpo.com/scripts/Server.nxp?LASCmd=AI:4;F:APIUTILS! 10&ShowKey=3155 Jim -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 19:30:19 2010 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:30:19 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: <20101021185945.GM12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101021185945.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <5F46CDFC-2F83-4EC0-9612-19954DC98ABC@sarg.ryerson.ca> On Oct 21, 2010, at 14:59, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > If you run unstable you see it occationally. In testing it should almost > never happen. Certainly in stable it does not happen. This is something I've been wondering... I guess it's quite reasonable to run unstable. The Debian releases page says about unstable: > run by developers and those who like to live on the edge. If I'm using a relatively special (limited) install this seems like it would be fairly reasonable. I think rather than "unstable" I'd put "sid" in my /etc/apt/sources.list so that I would track that as it moved, eventually, to stable. To move to sid, I found a page that said to add: deb http://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/ sid main contrib non-free to sources.list and then: apt-get update && apt-get upgrade *Then* do I remove all the references to lenny from my sources.list file? I have a later kernel from backports; will that be upgraded too? Thanks for any help ../Dave-- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 20:36:08 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:36:08 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: <5F46CDFC-2F83-4EC0-9612-19954DC98ABC-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101021185945.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5F46CDFC-2F83-4EC0-9612-19954DC98ABC@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20101021203608.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 03:30:19PM -0400, Dave Mason wrote: > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 14:59, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > If you run unstable you see it occationally. In testing it should almost > > never happen. Certainly in stable it does not happen. > > This is something I've been wondering... I guess it's quite reasonable to run unstable. The Debian releases page says about unstable: > > > run by developers and those who like to live on the edge. > > If I'm using a relatively special (limited) install this seems like it would be fairly reasonable. I think rather than "unstable" I'd put "sid" in my /etc/apt/sources.list so that I would track that as it moved, eventually, to stable. It won't. sid == unstable. Remember in toy story sid is the kid next door that destroys toys. So sid is where things may be broken. sid is also not a toy. All the Debian releases are named after toys in toy story. The way it works is that when a new release happens, it changes from testing to stable. A copy of the new stable then becomes the new testing with a new name, and packages from unstable continue to trickle in if they stay relatively bug free as development progresses. Some packages may never leave unstable if they never become bug free enough. So sid/unstable will never become a release. The last release to come from unstable being turned into stable was potato (Debian 2.2). It was so slow and painful that they invented the 'almost always stable' testing concept to keep very broken things out of the way of getting a release done. It was a good change. The next testing name after squeeze is released has already been decided, although I can't remember what it is right now. > To move to sid, I found a page that said to add: > > deb http://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/ sid main contrib non-free > > to sources.list and then: > > apt-get update && apt-get upgrade > > *Then* do I remove all the references to lenny from my sources.list file? I have a later kernel from backports; will that be upgraded too? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 21:43:13 2010 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:43:13 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: <20101021203608.GN12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101021185945.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5F46CDFC-2F83-4EC0-9612-19954DC98ABC@sarg.ryerson.ca> <20101021203608.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <774F8F17-C2C8-4967-A587-D94D9A328237@sarg.ryerson.ca> On Oct 21, 2010, at 16:36, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 03:30:19PM -0400, Dave Mason wrote: >> >> If I'm using a relatively special (limited) install this seems like it would be fairly reasonable. I think rather than "unstable" I'd put "sid" in my /etc/apt/sources.list so that I would track that as it moved, eventually, to stable. > > It won't. sid == unstable. Remember in toy story sid is the kid next > door that destroys toys. So sid is where things may be broken. sid is > also not a toy. All the Debian releases are named after toys in toy > story. When I said eventually stable, I assumed via testing. I thought that lenny was once unstable, then it was testing, then it was released as stable. sid is the release that is currently equivalent to unstable; when squeeze becomes stable, will not lenny become oldstable, sid become testing, and a copy of sid be made under another name (which you referenced as already having been decided upon) and that will be the new unstable? > The way it works is that when a new release happens, it changes > from testing to stable. A copy of the new stable then becomes the > new testing with a new name, and packages from unstable continue to > trickle in if they stay relatively bug free as development progresses. > Some packages may never leave unstable if they never become bug free > enough. So sid/unstable will never become a release. No, but won't sid/unstable eventually become sid/testing and sid/testing eventually become sid/stable and be a release? >> To move to sid, I found a page that said to add: >> >> deb http://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/ sid main contrib non-free >> >> to sources.list and then: >> >> apt-get update && apt-get upgrade >> >> *Then* do I remove all the references to lenny from my sources.list file? I have a later kernel from backports; will that be upgraded too? Can someone confirm? Thanks ../Dave-- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 21:56:52 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: why does Ubuntu need so large a USB stick? Message-ID: I've downloaded Ubuntu 10.10 desktop .iso files and am reading the directions for making a bootable USB flash memory from them. The first thing it says is: Insert a USB stick with at least 2GB of free space Why does it need 2GB when the .iso is only 728754176 bytes? Perhaps the .iso is compressed and the USB is not, but that would seem dumb. Why does it say "2GB free"? Does it preserve the existing content? If so, surely there must be a limitation on what filesystems are supported and this isn't mentioned. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 21 22:19:54 2010 From: alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:19:54 +0000 Subject: why does Ubuntu need so large a USB stick? Message-ID: <296812573-1287699595-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2118735104-@bda695.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I assume this is to allow for the option of adding a persistence file. I've installed 10.10 to a 1GB USB stick for a friend, and had no issues running it. I think, for clarity, that "we recommend a USB stick of at least 2GB be used" should be added, as it isn't a hard and fast rule, but seems to be more of a guideline when using a USB stick for running Ubuntu. ------Original Message------ From: D. Hugh Redelmeier Sender: owner-tlug at ss.org To: Toronto Linux Users Group ReplyTo: tlug at ss.org Subject: [TLUG]: why does Ubuntu need so large a USB stick? Sent: Oct 21, 2010 17:56 I've downloaded Ubuntu 10.10 desktop .iso files and am reading the directions for making a bootable USB flash memory from them. The first thing it says is: Insert a USB stick with at least 2GB of free space Why does it need 2GB when the .iso is only 728754176 bytes? Perhaps the .iso is compressed and the USB is not, but that would seem dumb. Why does it say "2GB free"? Does it preserve the existing content? If so, surely there must be a limitation on what filesystems are supported and this isn't mentioned. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Alex Gabriel Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 22 00:36:40 2010 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:36:40 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: <774F8F17-C2C8-4967-A587-D94D9A328237-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101021185945.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5F46CDFC-2F83-4EC0-9612-19954DC98ABC@sarg.ryerson.ca> <20101021203608.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <774F8F17-C2C8-4967-A587-D94D9A328237@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On 21 October 2010 17:43, Dave Mason wrote: > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 16:36, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 03:30:19PM -0400, Dave Mason wrote: >>> >>> If I'm using a relatively special (limited) install this seems like it would be fairly reasonable. ?I think rather than "unstable" I'd put "sid" in my /etc/apt/sources.list so that I would track that as it moved, eventually, to stable. >> >> It won't. ?sid == unstable. ?Remember in toy story sid is the kid next >> door that destroys toys. ?So sid is where things may be broken. ?sid is >> also not a toy. ?All the Debian releases are named after toys in toy >> story. > > When I said eventually stable, I assumed via testing. ?I thought that lenny was once unstable, then it was testing, then it was released as stable. ?sid is the release that is currently equivalent to unstable; when squeeze becomes stable, will not lenny become oldstable, sid become testing, and a copy of sid be made under another name (which you referenced as already having been decided upon) and that will be the new unstable? > >> The way it works is that when a new release happens, it changes >> from testing to stable. ?A copy of the new stable then becomes the >> new testing with a new name, and packages from unstable continue to >> trickle in if they stay relatively bug free as development progresses. >> Some packages may never leave unstable if they never become bug free >> enough. ?So sid/unstable will never become a release. > > No, but won't sid/unstable eventually become sid/testing and sid/testing eventually become sid/stable and be a release? As Lennart said, no. testing and stable releases have other names (from "Toy Story"), and whatever is testing now will eventually become stable. So ... your logic is sound but it doesn't apply here - it took me a while to wrap my head around this as well. Look at it this way: testing and stable with their names are "releases," while sid/unstable isn't so much a "release" or even a deliberate grouping of packages, it's just a test platform. So Sid is always Sid, and Sid is always unstable. Stuff from unstable trickles into testing when it's considered reasonably tested/usable, and then it becomes part of a named testing release. But Sid stays Sid. Clear as mud? Good! Sorry about that ... just wait a bit and it'll probably soak in. >>> To move to sid, I found a page that said to add: >>> >>> ? ? ?deb http://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/ sid main contrib non-free >>> >>> to sources.list and then: >>> >>> ? ? ?apt-get update && apt-get upgrade >>> >>> *Then* do I remove all the references to lenny from my sources.list file? ?I have a later kernel from backports; will that be upgraded too? > > Can someone confirm? Sounds about right: basically you would change any occurrence of the word "testing" (or "stable" if that's what you're using) to "sid" or "unstable". Either the name or the "status" works. Then update and probably "full-upgrade" rather than "upgrade". Kernels aren't usually installed automatically (my experience, don't know the official policy), but even if one is, the old one should still be there and usable: they aren't removed automatically for sure. (If it offers any reassurance, I did the name search-and-replace dance many times with Ubuntu installs - now that I'm running Debian almost exclusively I tend to leave my systems on "testing" pretty much all the time.) -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 22 11:56:15 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:56:15 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re:Dell 27" monitor on sale In-Reply-To: <4CC06360.9000109-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CBF1EEB.5000407@alteeve.com> <4CC02F7C.3070309@rogers.com> <4CC06360.9000109@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CC17BDF.30604@rogers.com> Yanni Chiu wrote: > On 21/10/10 8:18 AM, James Knott wrote: >> ... I also have a HD terminal connected to it, so I can use >> it as a TV in my "office". > > What is an HD terminal? Is it a TV receiver? A "cable box" for Rogers Cable. It's the Scientific Atlanta 4250 that Rogers rents & sells. I bought two of them from Future Shop during last year's "boxing week" sale. The other one is used with my bedroom TV and I also have a PVR connected to my 42" HDTV. My monitor, an LG W2353V, has 3 inputs. The DVI input is connected to my computer, HDMI to the HD box and the VGA input is connected to a KVM switch for 3 more computers. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 22 18:32:40 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:32:40 -0400 Subject: Gratis availability of Amazon data services Message-ID: Interesting thing coming up... Amazon's offering a "free tier" of services from Nov 1 2010 to Oct 31 2011. http://aws.amazon.com/free/?tag=gmgamzn-20 So if you were interested in trying out some of the stuff Fabio discussed last month , well here's a "freebie level." The free access to S3 is probably worth looking at independent of all the other stuff. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 22 18:38:20 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:38:20 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: <774F8F17-C2C8-4967-A587-D94D9A328237-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101021185945.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5F46CDFC-2F83-4EC0-9612-19954DC98ABC@sarg.ryerson.ca> <20101021203608.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <774F8F17-C2C8-4967-A587-D94D9A328237@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20101022183820.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 05:43:13PM -0400, Dave Mason wrote: > When I said eventually stable, I assumed via testing. I thought that lenny was once unstable, then it was testing, then it was released as stable. sid is the release that is currently equivalent to unstable; when squeeze becomes stable, will not lenny become oldstable, sid become testing, and a copy of sid be made under another name (which you referenced as already having been decided upon) and that will be the new unstable? Nope won't ever happen. potato was the last unstable release to turn into a stable release. It was too impractical. > No, but won't sid/unstable eventually become sid/testing and sid/testing eventually become sid/stable and be a release? No sid is always unstable. unstable never converts to testing. Individial packages migrate from unstable to testing. sid/unstable is where new development happens. It is not where a future release is happening. testing is where a future release is being worked on by moving in the packages that look good from unstable. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 22 18:40:28 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:40:28 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101021185945.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5F46CDFC-2F83-4EC0-9612-19954DC98ABC@sarg.ryerson.ca> <20101021203608.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <774F8F17-C2C8-4967-A587-D94D9A328237@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20101022184028.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 08:36:40PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote: > Sounds about right: basically you would change any occurrence of the > word "testing" (or "stable" if that's what you're using) to "sid" or > "unstable". Either the name or the "status" works. Then update and > probably "full-upgrade" rather than "upgrade". Kernels aren't usually > installed automatically (my experience, don't know the official > policy), but even if one is, the old one should still be there and > usable: they aren't removed automatically for sure. (If it offers any > reassurance, I did the name search-and-replace dance many times with > Ubuntu installs - now that I'm running Debian almost exclusively I > tend to leave my systems on "testing" pretty much all the time.) upgrade sucks, dist-upgrade always works, never heard of full-upgrade. New kernels will be pulled in if you have the meta pacakge linux-image-2.6-cputype installed which depends on the current kernel. The kernel in unstable isn't tracked right away by the meta package though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 23 17:13:43 2010 From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: why does Ubuntu need so large a USB stick? In-Reply-To: <296812573-1287699595-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2118735104--6MQWB4Gd5KvjL2gL5RxOEzYg3SYOavFBmZ6FRVpaDsI@public.gmane.org> References: <296812573-1287699595-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2118735104-@bda695.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <637394.30118.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> It does preserve the existing file. I had to carry the .iso on the same stick that I made? bootable, because I downloaded the iso on an Ubuntu 8.04 machine that doesn't have the utility. At the end of the process I have the bootable USB stick with the original .iso file intact. In that scenario, 2GB is reasonable. Probably, that is the scenario that they are assuming. EK --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Alex Gabriel wrote: From: Alex Gabriel Subject: Re: [TLUG]: why does Ubuntu need so large a USB stick? To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Received: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:19 PM I assume this is to allow for the option of adding a persistence file. I've installed 10.10 to a 1GB USB stick for a friend, and had no issues running it. I think, for clarity, that "we recommend a USB stick of at least 2GB be used" should be added, as it isn't a hard and fast rule, but seems to be more of a guideline when using a USB stick for running Ubuntu. ------Original Message------ From: D. Hugh Redelmeier Sender: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org To: Toronto Linux Users Group ReplyTo: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: why does Ubuntu need so large a USB stick? Sent: Oct 21, 2010 17:56 I've downloaded Ubuntu 10.10 desktop .iso files and am reading the directions for making a bootable USB flash memory from them. The first thing it says is: ??? Insert a USB stick with at least 2GB of free ??? space Why does it need 2GB when the .iso is only 728754176 bytes? Perhaps the .iso is compressed and the USB is not, but that would seem dumb. Why does it say "2GB free"?? Does it preserve the existing content? If so, surely there must be a limitation on what filesystems are supported and this isn't mentioned. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Alex Gabriel Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless NetworkN???'?????T????.????)??m?????n????2?????-????h?',6??0?+j?^????? From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 23 17:19:17 2010 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:19:17 -0700 Subject: why does Ubuntu need so large a USB stick? In-Reply-To: <637394.30118.qm-Q9ppC46l1fv5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <296812573-1287699595-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2118735104-@bda695.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <637394.30118.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just out of curiosity, did your client at all the gobblegook characters to the end of the message, or is it just me. Seems odd. On 2010-10-23 10:14 AM, "E K" wrote: It does preserve the existing file. I had to carry the .iso on the same stick that I made bootable, because I downloaded the iso on an Ubuntu 8.04 machine that doesn't have the utility. At the end of the process I have the bootable USB stick with the original .iso file intact. In that scenario, 2GB is reasonable. Probably, that is the scenario that they are assuming. EK --- On *Thu, 10/21/10, Alex Gabriel * wrote: From: Alex Gabriel Subject: Re: [TLUG]: why does Ubuntu need so large a USB stick? To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Received: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:19 PM > I assume this is to allow for the option of adding a persistence file. I've installed 10.10 to a 1... Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless NetworkN???'?????T????.????)??m?????n????2?????-????h?',6??0?+j?^????? From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 23 18:43:49 2010 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 14:43:49 -0400 Subject: dpkg error on apt-get upgrade In-Reply-To: <20101022183820.GO12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101021164802.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101021185945.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <5F46CDFC-2F83-4EC0-9612-19954DC98ABC@sarg.ryerson.ca> <20101021203608.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <774F8F17-C2C8-4967-A587-D94D9A328237@sarg.ryerson.ca> <20101022183820.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2010-Oct-22, at 14:38 , Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> No, but won't sid/unstable eventually become sid/testing and sid/ >> testing eventually become sid/stable and be a release? > > No sid is always unstable. unstable never converts to testing. > Individial packages migrate from unstable to testing. > > sid/unstable is where new development happens. It is not where a > future > release is happening. testing is where a future release is being > worked > on by moving in the packages that look good from unstable. Got it. Thanks. I would argue that unstable shouldn't have a name, but I'm not Debian.org, so wht I'd do is irrelevant! ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 23 20:55:03 2010 From: sadiq-KzRxrKfdH+/c+919tysfdA at public.gmane.org (Sadiq S) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:55:03 -0400 Subject: SPF records? Message-ID: <1287867303.29532.4.camel@boss> Hi, I just setup a domain I purchased for Google Apps, which as you know comes with e-mail. This is what I get when I try to send a subscription request: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 554 554 : Recipient address rejected: for TLD info we require a SPF record Please see http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=ss% 40sadiqs.info&ip=74.125.82.178&receiver=rock.ss.org (state 14). Now, I have added the SPF records required: v=spf1 mx ~all Will this be alright? How long does this take to update? Thanks, Sadiq S -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 23 22:34:10 2010 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 18:34:10 -0400 Subject: SPF records? In-Reply-To: <1287867303.29532.4.camel@boss> References: <1287867303.29532.4.camel@boss> Message-ID: Hello Sadiq, I am not an expert on SPF and I am not sure if your configuration will work, I guess the only way to find out is to test it. I would assume that since SPF is a DNS entry the time it takes to update depends on your ttl. I do use SPF for my domain. Here are both of my SPF records. v=spf1 a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.ca ip4:69.196.152.151 ~all spf2.0/pra a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.ca ip4:69.196.152.151 ~all penguin.jasoncarson.ca is my mail server. jasoncarson.ca is my domain and 69.196.152.151 is my static IP. > Hi, > > I just setup a domain I purchased for Google Apps, which as you know > comes with e-mail. > > This is what I get when I try to send a subscription request: > > Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the > recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for > further information about the cause of this error. The error that the > other server returned was: 554 554 : Recipient > address rejected: for TLD info we require a SPF record Please see > http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=ss% > 40sadiqs.info&ip=74.125.82.178&receiver=rock.ss.org (state 14). > > Now, I have added the SPF records required: > > v=spf1 mx ~all > > Will this be alright? How long does this take to update? > > Thanks, > Sadiq S > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 23 23:12:54 2010 From: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 19:12:54 -0400 Subject: SPF records? In-Reply-To: References: <1287867303.29532.4.camel@boss> Message-ID: The one I had before wasn't working, now I put this one in: v=spf1 a mx ptr mx:ALT1.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ALT2.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx: ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ASPMX2.GOOGLEMAIL.COM mx:ASPMX3.GOOGLEMAIL.COM -all Sadiq S mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Blog: www.staticsafe.me Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Jason Carson wrote: > Hello Sadiq, > > I am not an expert on SPF and I am not sure if your configuration will > work, I guess the only way to find out is to test it. I would assume that > since SPF is a DNS entry the time it takes to update depends on your ttl. > I do use SPF for my domain. Here are both of my SPF records. > > v=spf1 a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.ca ip4:69.196.152.151 > ~all > > spf2.0/pra a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.ca > ip4:69.196.152.151 ~all > > > > penguin.jasoncarson.ca is my mail server. jasoncarson.ca is my domain and > 69.196.152.151 is my static IP. > > > Hi, > > > > I just setup a domain I purchased for Google Apps, which as you know > > comes with e-mail. > > > > This is what I get when I try to send a subscription request: > > > > Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the > > recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for > > further information about the cause of this error. The error that the > > other server returned was: 554 554 : Recipient > > address rejected: for TLD info we require a SPF record Please see > > http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=ss% > > 40sadiqs.info&ip=74.125.82.178&receiver=rock.ss.org (state 14). > > > > Now, I have added the SPF records required: > > > > v=spf1 mx ~all > > > > Will this be alright? How long does this take to update? > > > > Thanks, > > Sadiq S > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 23 23:35:17 2010 From: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 19:35:17 -0400 Subject: SPF records? In-Reply-To: References: <1287867303.29532.4.camel@boss> Message-ID: Apparently it takes 48 hours to work properly: http://help.godaddy.com/article/5783 I just set it up to that. Sadiq S mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Blog: www.staticsafe.me Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Sadiq Saif wrote: > The one I had before wasn't working, now I put this one in: > > v=spf1 a mx ptr mx:ALT1.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ALT2.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx: > ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ASPMX2.GOOGLEMAIL.COM mx:ASPMX3.GOOGLEMAIL.COM -all > > Sadiq S > mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > Blog: www.staticsafe.me > Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe > Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe > > > > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Jason Carson wrote: > >> Hello Sadiq, >> >> I am not an expert on SPF and I am not sure if your configuration will >> work, I guess the only way to find out is to test it. I would assume that >> since SPF is a DNS entry the time it takes to update depends on your ttl. >> I do use SPF for my domain. Here are both of my SPF records. >> >> v=spf1 a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.ca ip4:69.196.152.151 >> ~all >> >> spf2.0/pra a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.ca >> ip4:69.196.152.151 ~all >> >> >> >> penguin.jasoncarson.ca is my mail server. jasoncarson.ca is my domain and >> 69.196.152.151 is my static IP. >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > I just setup a domain I purchased for Google Apps, which as you know >> > comes with e-mail. >> > >> > This is what I get when I try to send a subscription request: >> > >> > Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the >> > recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for >> > further information about the cause of this error. The error that the >> > other server returned was: 554 554 : >> Recipient >> > address rejected: for TLD info we require a SPF record Please see >> > http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=ss% >> > 40sadiqs.info&ip=74.125.82.178&receiver=rock.ss.org (state 14). >> > >> > Now, I have added the SPF records required: >> > >> > v=spf1 mx ~all >> > >> > Will this be alright? How long does this take to update? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Sadiq S >> > >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 24 00:22:58 2010 From: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 20:22:58 -0400 Subject: SPF records? In-Reply-To: References: <1287867303.29532.4.camel@boss> Message-ID: It has propagated, and is now working; subscribing to the TLUG list now. Sadiq S mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Blog: www.staticsafe.me Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Sadiq Saif wrote: > Apparently it takes 48 hours to work properly: > > http://help.godaddy.com/article/5783 > > I just set it up to that. > > > Sadiq S > mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > Blog: www.staticsafe.me > Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe > Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe > > > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Sadiq Saif wrote: > >> The one I had before wasn't working, now I put this one in: >> >> v=spf1 a mx ptr mx:ALT1.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ALT2.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx: >> ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ASPMX2.GOOGLEMAIL.COM mx:ASPMX3.GOOGLEMAIL.COM -all >> >> Sadiq S >> mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org >> Blog: www.staticsafe.me >> Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe >> Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Jason Carson wrote: >> >>> Hello Sadiq, >>> >>> I am not an expert on SPF and I am not sure if your configuration will >>> work, I guess the only way to find out is to test it. I would assume that >>> since SPF is a DNS entry the time it takes to update depends on your ttl. >>> I do use SPF for my domain. Here are both of my SPF records. >>> >>> v=spf1 a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.caip4:69.196.152.151 >>> ~all >>> >>> spf2.0/pra a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.ca >>> ip4:69.196.152.151 ~all >>> >>> >>> >>> penguin.jasoncarson.ca is my mail server. jasoncarson.ca is my domain >>> and >>> 69.196.152.151 is my static IP. >>> >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > I just setup a domain I purchased for Google Apps, which as you know >>> > comes with e-mail. >>> > >>> > This is what I get when I try to send a subscription request: >>> > >>> > Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the >>> > recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for >>> > further information about the cause of this error. The error that the >>> > other server returned was: 554 554 : >>> Recipient >>> > address rejected: for TLD info we require a SPF record Please see >>> > http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=ss% >>> > 40sadiqs.info&ip=74.125.82.178&receiver=rock.ss.org (state 14). >>> > >>> > Now, I have added the SPF records required: >>> > >>> > v=spf1 mx ~all >>> > >>> > Will this be alright? How long does this take to update? >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Sadiq S >>> > >>> > -- >>> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 24 00:32:57 2010 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 20:32:57 -0400 Subject: SPF records? In-Reply-To: References: <1287867303.29532.4.camel@boss> Message-ID: <41e1f96fb0b402b34e88835ee03de4ef.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Glad to hear it is working. One other thing, you might have to submit your SPF record to Microsoft so you can send emails to Hotmail. I know I had too. Try sending a test email to a Hotmail account and see if that Hotmail account receives it, if it doesn't visit this link... http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/technologies/senderid/default.mspx ...and click "Sender ID SPF Record Submission Form" in the box on the right and fill out the form. Cheers, Jason > It has propagated, and is now working; subscribing to the TLUG list now. > > Sadiq S > mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > Blog: www.staticsafe.me > Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe > Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe > > > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Sadiq Saif wrote: > >> Apparently it takes 48 hours to work properly: >> >> http://help.godaddy.com/article/5783 >> >> I just set it up to that. >> >> >> Sadiq S >> mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org >> Blog: www.staticsafe.me >> Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe >> Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Sadiq Saif >> wrote: >> >>> The one I had before wasn't working, now I put this one in: >>> >>> v=spf1 a mx ptr mx:ALT1.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ALT2.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM >>> mx: >>> ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ASPMX2.GOOGLEMAIL.COM mx:ASPMX3.GOOGLEMAIL.COM >>> -all >>> >>> Sadiq S >>> mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org >>> Blog: www.staticsafe.me >>> Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe >>> Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Jason Carson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Sadiq, >>>> >>>> I am not an expert on SPF and I am not sure if your configuration will >>>> work, I guess the only way to find out is to test it. I would assume >>>> that >>>> since SPF is a DNS entry the time it takes to update depends on your >>>> ttl. >>>> I do use SPF for my domain. Here are both of my SPF records. >>>> >>>> v=spf1 a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca >>>> mx:jasoncarson.caip4:69.196.152.151 >>>> ~all >>>> >>>> spf2.0/pra a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.ca >>>> ip4:69.196.152.151 ~all >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> penguin.jasoncarson.ca is my mail server. jasoncarson.ca is my domain >>>> and >>>> 69.196.152.151 is my static IP. >>>> >>>> > Hi, >>>> > >>>> > I just setup a domain I purchased for Google Apps, which as you know >>>> > comes with e-mail. >>>> > >>>> > This is what I get when I try to send a subscription request: >>>> > >>>> > Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the >>>> > recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider >>>> for >>>> > further information about the cause of this error. The error that >>>> the >>>> > other server returned was: 554 554 : >>>> Recipient >>>> > address rejected: for TLD info we require a SPF record Please see >>>> > http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=ss% >>>> > 40sadiqs.info&ip=74.125.82.178&receiver=rock.ss.org (state 14). >>>> > >>>> > Now, I have added the SPF records required: >>>> > >>>> > v=spf1 mx ~all >>>> > >>>> > Will this be alright? How long does this take to update? >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > Sadiq S >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>>> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>>> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>>> >>> >>> >> > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ss-tWm8UfAypx3iB9QmIjCX8w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 24 00:44:56 2010 From: ss-tWm8UfAypx3iB9QmIjCX8w at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 20:44:56 -0400 Subject: SPF records? In-Reply-To: <41e1f96fb0b402b34e88835ee03de4ef.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org> References: <1287867303.29532.4.camel@boss> <41e1f96fb0b402b34e88835ee03de4ef.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Message-ID: Actually, e-mails to Hotmail were working before I even knew about the SPF issue. One of the first thing I did was send an e-mail to my Hotmail address. On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Jason Carson wrote: > Glad to hear it is working. > > One other thing, you might have to submit your SPF record to Microsoft so > you can send emails to Hotmail. I know I had too. Try sending a test email > to a Hotmail account and see if that Hotmail account receives it, if it > doesn't visit this link... > > http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/technologies/senderid/default.mspx > > ...and click "Sender ID SPF Record Submission Form" in the box on the > right and fill out the form. > > Cheers, > > Jason > > > It has propagated, and is now working; subscribing to the TLUG list now. > > > > Sadiq S > > mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > > Blog: www.staticsafe.me > > Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe > > Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Sadiq Saif > wrote: > > > >> Apparently it takes 48 hours to work properly: > >> > >> http://help.godaddy.com/article/5783 > >> > >> I just set it up to that. > >> > >> > >> Sadiq S > >> mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > >> Blog: www.staticsafe.me > >> Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe > >> Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Sadiq Saif > >> wrote: > >> > >>> The one I had before wasn't working, now I put this one in: > >>> > >>> v=spf1 a mx ptr mx:ALT1.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ALT2.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM > >>> mx: > >>> ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM mx:ASPMX2.GOOGLEMAIL.COM mx:ASPMX3.GOOGLEMAIL.COM > >>> -all > >>> > >>> Sadiq S > >>> mailto: sadiq.9541-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > >>> Blog: www.staticsafe.me > >>> Twitter - www.twitter.com/staticsafe > >>> Facebook- www.facebook.com/static.safe > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Jason Carson > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello Sadiq, > >>>> > >>>> I am not an expert on SPF and I am not sure if your configuration will > >>>> work, I guess the only way to find out is to test it. I would assume > >>>> that > >>>> since SPF is a DNS entry the time it takes to update depends on your > >>>> ttl. > >>>> I do use SPF for my domain. Here are both of my SPF records. > >>>> > >>>> v=spf1 a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca > >>>> mx:jasoncarson.caip4:69.196.152.151 > >>>> ~all > >>>> > >>>> spf2.0/pra a mx a:penguin.jasoncarson.ca mx:jasoncarson.ca > >>>> ip4:69.196.152.151 ~all > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> penguin.jasoncarson.ca is my mail server. jasoncarson.ca is my domain > >>>> and > >>>> 69.196.152.151 is my static IP. > >>>> > >>>> > Hi, > >>>> > > >>>> > I just setup a domain I purchased for Google Apps, which as you know > >>>> > comes with e-mail. > >>>> > > >>>> > This is what I get when I try to send a subscription request: > >>>> > > >>>> > Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the > >>>> > recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider > >>>> for > >>>> > further information about the cause of this error. The error that > >>>> the > >>>> > other server returned was: 554 554 : > >>>> Recipient > >>>> > address rejected: for TLD info we require a SPF record Please see > >>>> > http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=ss% > >>>> > 40sadiqs.info&ip=74.125.82.178&receiver=rock.ss.org (state 14). > >>>> > > >>>> > Now, I have added the SPF records required: > >>>> > > >>>> > v=spf1 mx ~all > >>>> > > >>>> > Will this be alright? How long does this take to update? > >>>> > > >>>> > Thanks, > >>>> > Sadiq S > >>>> > > >>>> > -- > >>>> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > >>>> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >>>> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > >>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 24 00:46:20 2010 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 20:46:20 -0400 Subject: why does Ubuntu need so large a USB stick? In-Reply-To: References: <296812573-1287699595-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2118735104-@bda695.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <637394.30118.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20101024004620.GA16564@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 10:19:17AM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote > Just out of curiosity, did your client at all the gobblegook > characters to the end of the message, or is it just me. Me too. Not only is Bell throttling down to dialup speeds, they're providing the total dialup experience . > Received: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:19 PM > > > I assume this is to allow for the option of adding a persistence file. > I've installed 10.10 to a 1... > Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless > NetworkN???????'???????????T????????.????????)????m??????????n?????????2??????????-????????h??',6?????0??+j???^??????????? ???????)"?????????)?????+- -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 24 16:19:39 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: free old tech books Message-ID: These books are available. Anyone want some? I can probably deliver to a TLUG meeting. Programming Guide to Pen Services for Microsoft Windows 95 a Pascal manual, in Chinese (which I cannot read). I don't remember if this is a translation of one of the classic texts. Very cheaply printed. Microsoft Windows 95 Resource Kit. (Includes 3 floppies) Bruce K. Brickman, Esq.: Legal Aspects: Acquiring & Protecting Software; Software protection . contracts . negotiations; 1984 HP LaserJet IIP Printer User's Manual >From the era when there were real manuals: a couple of hundred pages! Scott Maxwell: Linux Core Kernel Commentary A fat book with annotated Linux Kernel. Old: 1999 Stephen T. Satchell, H. B. J. Clifford: Linux IP Stacks Commentary A fat book with annotated Linux IP stack. Old: 2000 Charles Petzold: Programming Windows 3.1 Supposedly a classic Ralston et al: Encyclopedia of Computer Science Very good but very old: 1976, 1523 pages. X/Open Portability Guide: Window Management Old: 1988 Solaris Porting Guide >From SunSoft. 1995. 700 pages John Shirley: Guide to Writing DCE Applications O'Reilly & Associates 1993. 251 pages James E. Buchanan: BiCMOS / CMOS Systems Design Old: 1991. Much might actually still apply but I don't know. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 24 23:07:33 2010 From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: maybe OT? apache configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <941851.11039.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Matt, I don't fully understand the function of the serverName in the stanza. The only time I specify it is in a secure website specification. When I configure virtual hosts I have some thing like ???? ??????? virtual domain configuration stuff goes here ???? The stanza ??? ??????? ....... ?? is for the default website that is not configured with any of the .... stanzas above it. Anything under it is just redundant which will never be accessed (well, with port 80, to be exact). Long story short, one solution you might try is to create a symbolic link to your ??? /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons at /var/www/ with ln -s /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons /var/www/drupalsitename and let the drupal site be accessed like the other Wordpress sites. If your drupal site requires different configuration setting than the word press ones, then this will not work. You have to have a drupal virtual host stanza with ??? ??????? configuration stuff ??? stanza above the default stanza which happened to serve the WordPress sites. HTH, Equbay --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Matt Price wrote: From: Matt Price Subject: [TLUG]: maybe OT? apache configuration To: "TLUG" Received: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 11:10 PM Hi folks, ok, so I have an ubuntu server running multiple wordpress sites; so I have the file wordpress-sites in /etc/apache2/sites-available, containing the following fairly straightforward code: ------------------- ## Virtual host VirtualDocumentRoot???????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????? Options FollowSymLinks????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????? AllowOverride All?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? UseCanonicalName??? Off???????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? VirtualDocumentRoot /var/www/%0???????????????????????????????????????? ??????? Options All???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? #ServerAdmin admin-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? # Store uploads in /var/www/wp-uploads/$0?????????????????????????????? ??????? RewriteEngine On??????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? RewriteRule ^/wp-uploads/(.*)$ /var/www/wp-uploads/%{HTTP_HOST}/$1????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? ?????????? ------------------------ now I would like to try a drupal site on the same server (actually, the drupal commons install profile).? This works fine with the following code in /etc/apache2/conf.d/drupal-commons: --------------------------- Alias /drupal-commons /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons ??? Options +FollowSymLinks ??? AllowOverride All ??? order allow,deny ??? allow from all ------------------------------ except, of course, that this makes the default drupal site show up as a subdirectory of any site mapped to the server!? not what I want.? The problem is that I can't see how to combine the dynamic virtual host method with old fashioned static virtual hosts, e.g. like this: ??????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? DocumentRoot /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons??????????????????????? ??????? ServerName drupal.commons.site.hostname ???????????????????????????????????? ??????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? but, and here's my problem, if I put this stanza below the dynamic stanzas I already have, then they're pre-empted by the *wildcard blogging; but if I put the new stanza ahead of the old dynamic stuff, _SURPRISE_, now any site hosted at this ip address suddenly get served up the drupal commons site!? i don't really understand why that happens -- surely the ServerName directive is supposed to limit the application of the directive?? Can anyone offer me any guidance? Thanks as always, Matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 24 23:49:13 2010 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:49:13 -0400 Subject: maybe OT? apache configuration In-Reply-To: <941851.11039.qm-XZZpPA3K4zX5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <941851.11039.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC4C5F9.2060104@utoronto.ca> On 10/24/2010 07:07 PM, E K wrote: > Hi Matt, > > I don't fully understand the function of the serverName in the stanza. The only time I specify it is in a secure website specification. > > When I configure virtual hosts I have some thing like > > virtual domain configuration stuff goes here > > > The stanza > > ....... > > is for the default website that is not configured with any of the .... stanzas above it. Anything under it is just redundant which will never be accessed (well, with port 80, to be exact). > > Long story short, one solution you might try is to create a symbolic link to your > /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons at /var/www/ with > > ln -s /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons /var/www/drupalsitename > > and let the drupal site be accessed like the other Wordpress sites. > > If your drupal site requires different configuration setting than the word press ones, then this will not work. You have to have a drupal virtual host stanza with > > > configuration stuff > > stanza above the default stanza which happened to serve the WordPress sites. > > HTH, Lots of different ways to do virtual hosts in Apache. is pretty common with ServerName and ServerAlias directives. Something like this would work: ServerName drupal.example.com DocumentRoot /home/drupal-commons-etc ServerName example.com ServerAlias *.example.com Otherwise, mod_rewrite could be used based on matching HTTP_HOST and redirecting accordingly. tl;dr it doesn't hurt to be explicit with ServerName and ServerAlias directives. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 13:04:40 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gartner predictions Message-ID: Gartner make many predictions about the future of the IT industry but if you try to find information on how successful previous predictions were information is sorely limited. Well I just found an article from 2002 which goes into Gartner's predictions for 2010. You be the judge of how close they were to reality :) http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10878_11-1054116.html The claim about a reduced workforce as a result of automation is interesting. Everytime someone automates part of my job (as a sysadmin) I end up with more work to do, and it is more interesting work. This is a natural function of the layer nature of IT. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 13:24:26 2010 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:24:26 -0400 Subject: Gartner predictions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5850A.1010203@gmail.com> On 10/25/2010 9:04 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > Gartner make many predictions about the future of the IT industry but if > you try to find information on how successful previous predictions were > information is sorely limited. > > Well I just found an article from 2002 which goes into Gartner's > predictions for 2010. You be the judge of how close they were to > reality :) > > http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10878_11-1054116.html "By 2011, processors will clock at 150 GHz, and 6 terabytes of storage will be common" I think they didn't see the move towards miniaturization, energy efficiency and price decreases... particularly in handheld devices. We probably saw the same level of innovation, but in a different direction. "4. Successful firms in strong economy lay off millions" Strangely true but for the wrong reasons. Not bad predictions. I think they really missed the shift in demand and market price-points brought about through cell phones and set-top-box devices. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 14:39:52 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gartner predictions In-Reply-To: <4CC5850A.1010203-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5850A.1010203@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Mike Kallies wrote: > "By 2011, processors will clock at 150 GHz, and 6 terabytes of storage > will be common" I was pondering the cpu speed. IIRC the fact that the speeds of existing cpu architectures were going to hit a limit due to heat was well understood by 2002. The storage and ram predictions weren't far off but the trend has been fairly linear for decades so I don't think I can award them much kudos :) > "4. Successful firms in strong economy lay off millions" > > Strangely true but for the wrong reasons. Exactly :) In my first draft of the original post I spelt that out but then removed it. They were saying that it would be caused by automation. Every time someone automates part of my job (as a sysadmin) I end up with more to do, and it is more interesting work. As the complexity of the systems we run increases so will the work force. > Not bad predictions. I think they really missed the shift in demand and You're being more kind than I am about their predictions :) > market price-points brought about through cell phones and set-top-box > devices. Agreed. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 14:49:04 2010 From: moptop99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:49:04 -0400 Subject: maybe OT? apache configuration In-Reply-To: <4CC4C5F9.2060104-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <941851.11039.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4CC4C5F9.2060104@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > On 10/24/2010 07:07 PM, E K wrote: > > Hi Matt, > > > > I don't fully understand the function of the serverName in the > stanza. The only time I specify it is in a secure > website specification. > > > > When I configure virtual hosts I have some thing like > > > > virtual domain configuration stuff goes here > > > > > > The stanza > > > > ....... > > > > is for the default website that is not configured with any of the > .... stanzas above it. Anything under it is just > redundant which will never be accessed (well, with port 80, to be exact). > that's what i'd thought, but i was flailing around a bit... > > > > Long story short, one solution you might try is to create a symbolic link > to your > > /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons at /var/www/ with > > > > ln -s /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons /var/www/drupalsitename > > > > and let the drupal site be accessed like the other Wordpress sites. > so, i tried this. it doesn't seem to work -- I get a "Forbidden" page form apache. I can't for the life of me figure it out, as the softlink points to the same place as this alias in my /etc/apache2/conf.d: Alias /drupal-commons /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons i guess there's something i fundamentally don't understand about hte way apache assigns permissions. > > > If your drupal site requires different configuration setting than the > word press ones, then this will not work. You have to have a drupal virtual > host stanza with > > > > > > configuration stuff > > > > stanza above the default stanza which happened to > serve the WordPress sites. > i thought that Took an IP address as an argument, e.g., this seems confirmed by my experience, e.g. when I add this stana: DocumentRoot /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons ServerName tdhc.digitalcommons.ca it has no effect. > Lots of different ways to do virtual hosts in Apache. > is pretty common with ServerName and ServerAlias > directives. > > Something like this would work: > > > ServerName drupal.example.com > DocumentRoot /home/drupal-commons-etc > > > > ServerName example.com > ServerAlias *.example.com > > yes, so this is what I had (see the original posting) but for some reason it isn't working when the second (generic) stanza is dynamic. This is what I have for the second stanza: UseCanonicalName Off VirtualDocumentRoot /var/www/%0 Options All # Store uploads in /var/www/wp-uploads/$0 RewriteEngine On RewriteRule ^/wp-uploads/(.*)$ /var/www/wp-uploads/%{HTTP_HOST}/$1 > Otherwise, mod_rewrite could be used based on matching HTTP_HOST and > redirecting accordingly. > > Is this really easy? How would I use it for the site root (which doesn't really have any regexes to match on)? Thanks again, Matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 15:49:35 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A splendidly declarative beginning Message-ID: I got a card in the mail. I was excited to read the first two quotes: "A splendidly declarative beginning" Robert Cushman, National Post "Programming with a passionate vision... Leading rather than following" J. Kelly Nestruck, The Globe and Mail Then I was disappointed to discover that this was not an ad for a new computer language but one for the CanadianStage.com theatre season. I think that those quotes could perhaps better describe, say, Prolog or ML. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 17:40:52 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 13:40:52 -0400 Subject: today is the day Message-ID: for voting! just a friendly reminder not to let the forces of idiocy position their mascot above us in triumph. NO FORD! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 18:16:40 2010 From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: maybe OT? apache configuration Message-ID: <938660.83075.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Matt Price wrote: From: Matt Price Subject: Re: [TLUG]: maybe OT? apache configuration To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Received: Monday, October 25, 2010, 10:49 AM On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: On 10/24/2010 07:07 PM, E K wrote: > Hi Matt, > > I don't fully understand the function of the serverName in the stanza. The only time I specify it is in a secure website specification. > > When I configure virtual hosts I have some thing like > ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? virtual domain configuration stuff goes here > ? ? ? > > The stanza > ? ? > ? ? ? ? ....... > ? ? > is for the default website that is not configured with any of the .... stanzas above it. Anything under it is just redundant which will never be accessed (well, with port 80, to be exact). that's what i'd thought, but i was flailing around a bit... ? > > Long story short, one solution you might try is to create a symbolic link to your > ? ? /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons at /var/www/ with > > ln -s /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons /var/www/drupalsitename > > and let the drupal site be accessed like the other Wordpress sites. >so, i tried this.? it doesn't seem to work -- I get a "Forbidden" page >form apache. ? I can't for the life of me figure it out, as the softlink >points to the same place as this alias in my /etc/apache2/conf.d: >Alias /drupal-commons /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons >i guess there's something i fundamentally don't understand about hte way >apache assigns permissions. ? Try enabling followSymLinks in the directive because that is what you are actually doing. I am assuming that you Apache is able to list and read the Drupal directories and that php is not restricted from executing scripts in any directories. I have this feeling you are just around the corner with this. Check also if php is restricted to executing scripts to the Wordpress directory tree only as a security measure. > > If your drupal site requires different configuration setting than the >word press ones, then this will not work. You have to have a drupal >virtual host stanza with > > ? ? > ? ? ? ? configuration stuff > ? ? > stanza above the default stanza which happened to >serve the WordPress sites. >i thought that Took an IP address as an argument, e.g., > >this seems confirmed by my experience, e.g. when I add this stana: >??????? >??????? DocumentRoot /home/drupal-commons/drupal_commons >??????? ServerName tdhc.digitalcommons.ca >??????? >it has no effect.? ? takes ip address or FQDN. Where did you put the stanza? It should come before the default virtual host stanza. Lots of different ways to do virtual hosts in Apache. is pretty common with ServerName and ServerAlias directives. Something like this would work: ? ?ServerName drupal.example.com ? ?DocumentRoot /home/drupal-commons-etc ? ?ServerName example.com ? ?ServerAlias *.example.com yes, so this is what I had (see the original posting) but for some reason it isn't working when the second (generic) stanza is dynamic.? This is what I have for the second stanza: ????? ??????? UseCanonicalName??? Off ??????? VirtualDocumentRoot /var/www/%0 ??????? Options All ??????? # Store uploads in /var/www/wp-uploads/$0?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? RewriteEngine On ??????? RewriteRule ^/wp-uploads/(.*)$ /var/www/wp-uploads/%{HTTP_HOST}/$1 ??????? >Otherwise, mod_rewrite could be used based on matching HTTP_HOST and >redirecting accordingly. >Is this really easy?? How would I use it for the site root (which doesn't >really have any regexes to match on)?? Like most sysadmin problems it is easy once you solve it. Regards, Equbay (EK) >Thanks again, >Matt ? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 18:29:49 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:29:49 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5CC9D.7000306@dinamis.com> On 10/25/2010 01:40 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > for voting! just a friendly reminder not to let the forces of idiocy > position their mascot above us in triumph. > > NO FORD! By the way, there is nothing "friendly" about calling hundreds of thousands of people idiots. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 18:37:11 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:37:11 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > for voting! just a friendly reminder not to let the forces of idiocy > position their mascot above us in triumph. > > NO FORD! I'm sufficiently unhappy with the options out there that I wonder if his "temporary triumph" wouldn't be a well-deserved expression of contempt for the city. Historically, it seems pretty common that our democracies get the kind of leadership that they deserve, particularly when that leadership stinks. I find the prospect of the city having completely doubled back on political tendencies (e.g. - shifting from re-electing NDP-biased Miller to the "conservative-ish" Ford) makes me consider the result compromised. People don't swing that far, that fast. If they do, we should be expecting the federal Tories to take over most Toronto seats, which seems implausible. And I'm with Clifford - if you are keen to call a very large number of people "idiots," then whatever you are, it's not "friendly," and you shouldn't try to mistake yourself as such. My best idea thus far has been to consider expressing my contempt for the campaign by spoiling my ballot. That's not a terribly friendly option, but I haven't seen a candidate I actually want to vote for. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dkreuter-q4+D78v0SMv8u52rGdhAxQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 18:42:17 2010 From: dkreuter-q4+D78v0SMv8u52rGdhAxQ at public.gmane.org (dkreuter-q4+D78v0SMv8u52rGdhAxQ at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:42:17 -0700 Subject: today is the day Message-ID: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 18:46:25 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:46:25 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe-+3XUZGCMCPvShzhksYgB+AejPw4fNl8p@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <20101025184625.GQ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:42:17AM -0700, dkreuter-q4+D78v0SMv8u52rGdhAxQ at public.gmane.org wrote: >
ha. Try living in Vaughan. The "City Above Toronto" that has been essentially ungoverned for years. 
Despite this by many accounts a successful municipality.
Our choices aren't great either.
David
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: today is the day
> From: Christopher Browne <cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
[snip] Your email client appears broken. :0 -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 18:50:56 2010 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Digimer) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:50:56 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe-+3XUZGCMCPvShzhksYgB+AejPw4fNl8p@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <4CC5D190.9040703@alteeve.com> On 10-10-25 02:42 PM, dkreuter-q4+D78v0SMv8u52rGdhAxQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > ha. Try living in Vaughan. The "City Above Toronto" that has been essentially > ungoverned for years. > Despite this by many accounts a successful municipality. > Our choices aren't great either. > David Oakville is not better... Not even one candidate that I can vote for. Gonna go in and spoil my ballot instead of vote for any of the current lot. Digi PS: And yes, I do consider a spoiled ballot a valid form of voting. -- Digimer E-Mail: digimer-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org AN!Whitepapers: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 18:58:50 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:58:50 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101025185850.GR12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 02:37:11PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > I'm sufficiently unhappy with the options out there that I wonder if > his "temporary triumph" wouldn't be a well-deserved expression of > contempt for the city. Historically, it seems pretty common that our > democracies get the kind of leadership that they deserve, particularly > when that leadership stinks. > > I find the prospect of the city having completely doubled back on > political tendencies (e.g. - shifting from re-electing NDP-biased > Miller to the "conservative-ish" Ford) makes me consider the result > compromised. People don't swing that far, that fast. If they do, we > should be expecting the federal Tories to take over most Toronto > seats, which seems implausible. > > And I'm with Clifford - if you are keen to call a very large number of > people "idiots," then whatever you are, it's not "friendly," and you > shouldn't try to mistake yourself as such. > > My best idea thus far has been to consider expressing my contempt for > the campaign by spoiling my ballot. That's not a terribly friendly > option, but I haven't seen a candidate I actually want to vote for. Well as someone up in York Region, I just hope Toronto makes a good choice. I have no idea who would be a good choice unfortunately. Good luck down there. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 19:00:38 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:00:38 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC5D190.9040703-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> <4CC5D190.9040703@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20101025190038.GS12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 02:50:56PM -0400, Digimer wrote: > Oakville is not better... Not even one candidate that I can vote for. > Gonna go in and spoil my ballot instead of vote for any of the current lot. > > Digi > > PS: And yes, I do consider a spoiled ballot a valid form of voting. Unfortunately I am not sure those who do end up getting elected pay any attension to how many spoiled ballots there are. I am trying to imagine a vote where you have 10000 spoiled ballots and 1 vote for a candidate and hence they become the winner. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 19:01:54 2010 From: alexgabriel-CzeTG9NwML0 at public.gmane.org (Alex Gabriel) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:01:54 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025185850.GR12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025185850.GR12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: In my opinion, the decision comes down to the lesser of multiple evils. *shrug* None of the candidates have done anything to sway me in any direction, therefore I'm liable to refrain from voting. Alex Gabriel Winders: Where's y'all wanna git t'day? On 10-10-25 02:58 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 02:37:11PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: >> I'm sufficiently unhappy with the options out there that I wonder if >> his "temporary triumph" wouldn't be a well-deserved expression of >> contempt for the city. Historically, it seems pretty common that our >> democracies get the kind of leadership that they deserve, particularly >> when that leadership stinks. >> >> I find the prospect of the city having completely doubled back on >> political tendencies (e.g. - shifting from re-electing NDP-biased >> Miller to the "conservative-ish" Ford) makes me consider the result >> compromised. People don't swing that far, that fast. If they do, we >> should be expecting the federal Tories to take over most Toronto >> seats, which seems implausible. >> >> And I'm with Clifford - if you are keen to call a very large number of >> people "idiots," then whatever you are, it's not "friendly," and you >> shouldn't try to mistake yourself as such. >> >> My best idea thus far has been to consider expressing my contempt for >> the campaign by spoiling my ballot. That's not a terribly friendly >> option, but I haven't seen a candidate I actually want to vote for. > > Well as someone up in York Region, I just hope Toronto makes a good > choice. I have no idea who would be a good choice unfortunately. > Good luck down there. :) > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 19:05:26 2010 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:05:26 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> On 10/25/2010 2:37 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: >> for voting! just a friendly reminder not to let the forces of idiocy >> position their mascot above us in triumph. >> >> NO FORD! > > I'm sufficiently unhappy with the options out there that I wonder if > his "temporary triumph" wouldn't be a well-deserved expression of > contempt for the city. Historically, it seems pretty common that our > democracies get the kind of leadership that they deserve, particularly > when that leadership stinks. Could any Ford supporter comment on how Rob Ford is running on a transit platform which looks suspiciously like the old one his father helped can in 1995? The thought of another 180 degree shift in transit "vision" actually makes me angry. I vehemently oppose Rob Ford because of his preposterous transit plan. Everything else on this campaign is fluff. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 19:31:30 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:31:30 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC5D4F6.9090402-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:05:26PM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > Could any Ford supporter comment on how Rob Ford is running on a transit > platform which looks suspiciously like the old one his father helped can > in 1995? > > The thought of another 180 degree shift in transit "vision" actually > makes me angry. > > I vehemently oppose Rob Ford because of his preposterous transit plan. > Everything else on this campaign is fluff. Well anyone that thinks street cards should be replaced by busses because leaving room for cars is a good thing is nuts. Your best bet is to elliminate most cars from downtown. Other major cities around the world have done it and boy does it make things better. If transit worked well, people would not want to drive into downtown. So the solution is to fix transit, not make it better for cars (because you can never make enough room for cars in downtown toronto to avoid traffic problems, and the streetcars are not the problem). If you want cars to have an easier time, elliminate pedestrians. They get in the way of cars all the time. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 19:36:02 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:36:02 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025193130.GT12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: i will stand by my right to call rob ford supporters idiots and myself friendly. this is the guy who says that cyclists deserve what they get, when they get hit by cars. sounds like an idiot to me! On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:05:26PM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > > Could any Ford supporter comment on how Rob Ford is running on a transit > > platform which looks suspiciously like the old one his father helped can > > in 1995? > > > > The thought of another 180 degree shift in transit "vision" actually > > makes me angry. > > > > I vehemently oppose Rob Ford because of his preposterous transit plan. > > Everything else on this campaign is fluff. > > Well anyone that thinks street cards should be replaced by busses > because leaving room for cars is a good thing is nuts. Your best bet > is to elliminate most cars from downtown. Other major cities around > the world have done it and boy does it make things better. > > If transit worked well, people would not want to drive into downtown. > So the solution is to fix transit, not make it better for cars (because > you can never make enough room for cars in downtown toronto to avoid > traffic problems, and the streetcars are not the problem). If you want > cars to have an easier time, elliminate pedestrians. They get in the > way of cars all the time. :) > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 19:46:51 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Timothy Hildred wrote: > for voting! just a friendly reminder not to let the forces of idiocy > position their mascot above us in triumph. I wish I could. I discovered too late that if you buy a house and _then_ become a citizen that the city's voter roll is not automatically updated (even though the federal one is). Since I discovered this after the roll had closed for this election I am unable to vote. So I'm disenfranchied in Australia because I've been gone too long, and now I'm disenfranchied here too :) Well at least the federal roll should have my name.. but I should check... Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:00:11 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:00:11 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5E1CB.5060204@dinamis.com> On 10/25/2010 03:46 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Timothy Hildred wrote: > >> for voting! just a friendly reminder not to let the forces of idiocy >> position their mascot above us in triumph. > > I wish I could. I discovered too late that if you buy a house and _then_ > become a citizen that the city's voter roll is not automatically updated > (even though the federal one is). Since I discovered this after the roll > had closed for this election I am unable to vote. > > So I'm disenfranchied in Australia because I've been gone too long, and > now I'm disenfranchied here too :) > > Well at least the federal roll should have my name.. but I should check... You don't need to be on the voter roll to vote. You just need to produce ID at the polling station. Some polling stations will even accept a sworn affidavit. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:00:53 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:00:53 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101025200053.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:36:02PM -0400, Timothy Hildred wrote: > i will stand by my right to call rob ford supporters idiots and myself > friendly. > > this is the guy who says that cyclists deserve what they get, when they get > hit by cars. sounds like an idiot to me! Yes that does qualify one to be called an idiot. > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Lennart Sorensen < > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:05:26PM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > > > Could any Ford supporter comment on how Rob Ford is running on a transit > > > platform which looks suspiciously like the old one his father helped can > > > in 1995? > > > > > > The thought of another 180 degree shift in transit "vision" actually > > > makes me angry. > > > > > > I vehemently oppose Rob Ford because of his preposterous transit plan. > > > Everything else on this campaign is fluff. > > > > Well anyone that thinks street cards should be replaced by busses > > because leaving room for cars is a good thing is nuts. Your best bet > > is to elliminate most cars from downtown. Other major cities around > > the world have done it and boy does it make things better. > > > > If transit worked well, people would not want to drive into downtown. > > So the solution is to fix transit, not make it better for cars (because > > you can never make enough room for cars in downtown toronto to avoid > > traffic problems, and the streetcars are not the problem). If you want > > cars to have an easier time, elliminate pedestrians. They get in the > > way of cars all the time. :) In fact catering to drivers reminds me of playing simcity. There was always complaints about "We want more roads for our cars" and no matter how many expensive to maintain roads you made, there was always too much traffic and polution and they still wanted more roads. The only way to do well in simcity was to ignore the vocal minority that wanted to drive their cars and make a good public transit system instead. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:05:34 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:05:34 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101025200534.GV12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:46:51PM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: > I wish I could. I discovered too late that if you buy a house and _then_ > become a citizen that the city's voter roll is not automatically updated > (even though the federal one is). Since I discovered this after the roll > had closed for this election I am unable to vote. > > So I'm disenfranchied in Australia because I've been gone too long, and > now I'm disenfranchied here too :) > > Well at least the federal roll should have my name.. but I should check... You can vote. If you are a resident of toronto and have ID that shows your picture, address (in toronto) and has your signature, then you can vote. http://www.toronto.ca/elections/terms.htm#elector http://www.toronto.ca/elections/voters/identification.htm In the US you have to be on the elector list ahead of time. In Canada you can vote if you are a citizen living in a given area. That is all it takes. I am not a citizen so I can't vote, but that's the only reason. Now it is more convinient to have your preregistered voter card and all that but it is not a requirement. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:32:07 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:32:07 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5E947.6070304@rogers.com> Timothy Hildred wrote: > for voting! just a friendly reminder not to let the forces of idiocy > position their mascot above us in triumph. > > NO FORD! Chevy sucks!!! ;-) You can be sure I won't be voting for Ford. I live in Mississauga. ;-) However, I think Ford's the lesser evil. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:36:00 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:36:00 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5EA30.60507@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > but I haven't seen a candidate I actually want to vote for I wonder how many will vote today for Sarah Thompson or Rocco Rocci? Their names are still on the ballot. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:38:12 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:38:12 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe-+3XUZGCMCPvShzhksYgB+AejPw4fNl8p@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <4CC5EAB4.1020107@rogers.com> dkreuter-q4+D78v0SMv8u52rGdhAxQ at public.gmane.org wrote: > Our choices aren't great either. Well, lessee now. In Mississauga, I can vote for Hazel or ... ummm... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:42:04 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:42:04 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC5EAB4.1020107-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> <4CC5EAB4.1020107@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101025204204.GW12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 04:38:12PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Well, lessee now. In Mississauga, I can vote for Hazel or ... ummm... Good point. Now is she any good? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:45:36 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:45:36 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5EC70.6060601@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Timothy Hildred wrote: > >> for voting! just a friendly reminder not to let the forces of idiocy >> position their mascot above us in triumph. > > I wish I could. I discovered too late that if you buy a house and > _then_ become a citizen that the city's voter roll is not > automatically updated (even though the federal one is). Since I > discovered this after the roll had closed for this election I am > unable to vote. > > So I'm disenfranchied in Australia because I've been gone too long, > and now I'm disenfranchied here too :) > > Well at least the federal roll should have my name.. but I should > check... > > You don't have to own property to vote. As soon as you became a citizen you were eligible. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:49:47 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:49:47 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025204204.GW12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> <4CC5EAB4.1020107@rogers.com> <20101025204204.GW12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 04:38:12PM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> Well, lessee now. ?In Mississauga, I can vote for Hazel or ... ? ummm... > > Good point. > > Now is she any good? Apparently quite. She has been returning to office continually since 1978. She has evidently been very popular with constituents. There's a conflict of interest scandal relating to one of her children, which is apparently a problem for this campaign. She's 89 years old, implying that she has been a "senior citizen" throughout her remarkably long mayoral career. And to retire now would hardly imply cutting a career tragically short! :-) -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:50:16 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:50:16 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC5EC70.6060601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5EC70.6060601@rogers.com> Message-ID: "You can be sure I won't be voting for Ford. I live in Mississauga. ;-) However, I think Ford's the lesser evil." Someone told me that Ford is like toronto's ralph kline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:57:43 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:57:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: My opinion is: - there are only two candidates with a chance to win (Ford and Smitherman) - Ford looks dangerous. The single hope is that council would keep him in check. Not very comforting. - Smitherman isn't as apparently dangerous. - the probability distribution function of Ford badness is much worse than the p.d.f. of Smitherman badness Therefore it is important to vote for Smitherman. | From: Christopher Browne | My best idea thus far has been to consider expressing my contempt for | the campaign by spoiling my ballot. That's not a terribly friendly | option, but I haven't seen a candidate I actually want to vote for. Nihilism will get you nowhere. For my sake, if not yours, vote Smitherman. Councillors matter too. | From: Timothy Hildred | i will stand by my right to call rob ford supporters idiots and myself | friendly. You have the right but you would not be right. Apparently a lot of people who are not idiots are not paying sufficient attention. A minimum requirement for my support is (generally) to not say stupid things thinking I won't notice. | this is the guy who says that cyclists deserve what they get, when they get | hit by cars. sounds like an idiot to me! Many things he says are unreasonable. The idea that cutting down the cost of councillors would make an important difference in the city's budget is ludicrous and yet that is the centre of his platform. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:59:30 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:59:30 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5EC70.6060601@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CC5EFB2.8060500@dinamis.com> On 10/25/2010 04:50 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > "You can be sure I won't be voting for Ford. I live in Mississauga. ;-) > > However, I think Ford's the lesser evil." > > Someone told me that Ford is like toronto's ralph kline And you base voting decisions based on "someone told me"? By the way, Ralph *Klein*, despite the incessant criticisms of him in the press, which seems more determined to shape the news rather than report it, was very popular as Mayor of Calgary and subsequently as the Premier of Alberta. Calgary and Alberta both seem to be better off than they were before he got into office so being likened to Ralph Klein doesn't seem like such a bad thing. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 21:13:15 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:13:15 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> <4CC5EAB4.1020107@rogers.com> <20101025204204.GW12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101025211315.GX12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 04:49:47PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > Apparently quite. She has been returning to office continually since > 1978. She has evidently been very popular with constituents. I know she has been at it forever. > There's a conflict of interest scandal relating to one of her > children, which is apparently a problem for this campaign. It didn't sound like that big a deal to me, but who knows. > She's 89 years old, implying that she has been a "senior citizen" > throughout her remarkably long mayoral career. And to retire now > would hardly imply cutting a career tragically short! :-) Well she couldn't have been a senior citizen in 1978. I wonder if she would want to merge with toronto. Probably not. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 21:21:53 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:21:53 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025204204.GW12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025114217.b2346f13f9d300829b471d34de0fa166.4dd036e49a.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> <4CC5EAB4.1020107@rogers.com> <20101025204204.GW12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC5F4F1.9040509@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 04:38:12PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > >> Well, lessee now. In Mississauga, I can vote for Hazel or ... ummm... >> > Good point. > > Now is she any good? > > She's done OK so far. This is supposed to be her last term. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 21:24:39 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:24:39 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC5F597.1060508@dinamis.com> On 10/25/2010 04:57 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The idea that cutting down the cost of councillors would make an > important difference in the city's budget is ludicrous and yet that is > the centre of his platform. I read an article, perhaps by Thomas Walkom at the Star (I don't remember), where this issue was discussed. I think the author was spot on when he wrote that while it's true that even if they eliminated 100% of the councillors and their expenditures on running their respective offices it wouldn't amount to enough to make a big difference, Ford's political opponents misread the populace who aren't just looking for "Big Ideas" but also symbolic gestures. He went on to write that while it may amount to a token amount for Kyle Rae, for example, to spend $12,000 on a going away party funded by the public, that really incenses many taxpayers because they view it as a symptom of a bigger problem, namely that public funds are spent in a cavalier fashion. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 21:55:23 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:55:23 -0400 Subject: Distributed crypto filesystem Message-ID: I hadn't seen this before; looks interesting... In effect, it's "RAIDing" encrypted data across a multiplicity of data stores. http://tahoe-lafs.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2010-September/005248.html There's intent to package it for Debian ; doesn't seem like there's anything fundamentally preventing that. This is presumably a reasonable way to use not-quite-trusted substrates such as cloud storage (Amazon S3 and such) to store data securely. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 21:59:09 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:59:09 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics Message-ID: This, too, is not terribly encouraging of optimism today :-( http://lwn.net/Articles/411570/ But it may be reason to stand behind The Document Foundation... http://www.documentfoundation.org/ I've got a machine pulling down the source code: git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/libreoffice/build ./autogen.sh --with-git --with-num-cpus=2 ./download make That "download" step is a doozy, paralleling the whole "how many repos am I cloning?!?!??!" characteristic of doing a build of Android. The code's pullable, in any case... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 22:38:07 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:38:07 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 05:59:09PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > This, too, is not terribly encouraging of optimism today :-( > http://lwn.net/Articles/411570/ > > But it may be reason to stand behind The Document Foundation... > http://www.documentfoundation.org/ > > I've got a machine pulling down the source code: > > git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/libreoffice/build > ./autogen.sh --with-git --with-num-cpus=2 > ./download > make > > That "download" step is a doozy, paralleling the whole "how many repos > am I cloning?!?!??!" characteristic of doing a build of Android. The > code's pullable, in any case... So how much of what Oracle bought will survive Oracle's treatment of it? I think they may find that they have nothing left in the end the way they are going about things. Of course I am personally hoping Oracle succeeds at killing off Java. I am pretty indefferent about the survival of Solaris and MySql. Actually I am probably pretty indefferent about the survival of openoffice too for that matter. I despise office suites, and openoffice is one of the worse ones. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ss-tWm8UfAypx3iB9QmIjCX8w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 22:58:43 2010 From: ss-tWm8UfAypx3iB9QmIjCX8w at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:58:43 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: <20101025223807.GY12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: I just got the .deb packages from their site, running smoothly on my Ubuntu 10.10 system. Also, I don't know much about MySQL, but isn't it the industry standard for web hosting databases etc.? On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 05:59:09PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > > This, too, is not terribly encouraging of optimism today :-( > > http://lwn.net/Articles/411570/ > > > > But it may be reason to stand behind The Document Foundation... > > http://www.documentfoundation.org/ > > > > I've got a machine pulling down the source code: > > > > git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/libreoffice/build > > ./autogen.sh --with-git --with-num-cpus=2 > > ./download > > make > > > > That "download" step is a doozy, paralleling the whole "how many repos > > am I cloning?!?!??!" characteristic of doing a build of Android. The > > code's pullable, in any case... > > So how much of what Oracle bought will survive Oracle's treatment of it? > > I think they may find that they have nothing left in the end the way > they are going about things. > > Of course I am personally hoping Oracle succeeds at killing off Java. > I am pretty indefferent about the survival of Solaris and MySql. Actually > I am probably pretty indefferent about the survival of openoffice too > for that matter. I despise office suites, and openoffice is one of the > worse ones. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Sadiq Saif http://staticsafe.tumblr.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 23:03:05 2010 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:03:05 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025193130.GT12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: > Well anyone that thinks street cards should be replaced by busses > because leaving room for cars is a good thing is nuts. ?Your best bet > is to elliminate most cars from downtown. ?Other major cities around > the world have done it and boy does it make things better. > Well said Sorensen. I really can never get how someone can consider himself/herself a leader when they are ignorant of such hard fact. > If transit worked well, people would not want to drive into downtown. > So the solution is to fix transit, not make it better for cars (because > you can never make enough room for cars in downtown toronto to avoid > traffic problems, and the streetcars are not the problem). ?If you want > cars to have an easier time, elliminate pedestrians. ?They get in the > way of cars all the time. ?:) The biggest problem is actually not the space. If that was the only problem, I would be open to debating on the pro and cons of being car friendly. The biggest problem is sustainability of that mode of transport. We have the oil price being $83 per barrel despite all the developed countries being barely above recession. It should therefore be plainly obvious to anybody who consider themselves a leader the moment growth will reach around 2% in most developed countries, oil prices will go past $100 again. Actually, even if we do not have any growth going forward, we will still have oil selling above $130 in 2015. If we will still be heavily dependent of oil at that time, that shock alone will push us back into a recession. That alone should imply we should be investing every dollars we have on less oil depended transport mode. People like Ford are managers, but I do not unfortunately perceive him as a leader. Sure, he may balance the budget, but what good is that if he leaves the city barely unable to survive an impending calamity. We have been running governments like business and we will pay dearly for it. > > -- > Len Sorensen William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 25 20:21:35 2010 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:21:35 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025200534.GV12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025200534.GV12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that if you dislike all of the candidates you can formally reject your ballot. You go to the voting station, obtain a ballot, and then say to the polling officer 'I reject this ballot'. They have to mark you down, and at the end of the election, there should be a total available of rejected ballots. Would be in any way effective as a strategy? I doubt it. Peter > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:46:51PM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: >> I wish I could. I discovered too late that if you buy a house and >> _then_ >> become a citizen that the city's voter roll is not automatically updated >> (even though the federal one is). Since I discovered this after the >> roll >> had closed for this election I am unable to vote. >> >> So I'm disenfranchied in Australia because I've been gone too long, and >> now I'm disenfranchied here too :) >> >> Well at least the federal roll should have my name.. but I should >> check... > > You can vote. > > If you are a resident of toronto and have ID that shows your picture, > address (in toronto) and has your signature, then you can vote. > > http://www.toronto.ca/elections/terms.htm#elector > http://www.toronto.ca/elections/voters/identification.htm > > In the US you have to be on the elector list ahead of time. In Canada > you can vote if you are a citizen living in a given area. That is all > it takes. I am not a citizen so I can't vote, but that's the only reason. > > Now it is more convinient to have your preregistered voter card and all > that but it is not a requirement. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 00:39:18 2010 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:39:18 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: <20101025223807.GY12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <56e4b1d04093b3331738dbda4aa96862.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Actually > I am probably pretty indefferent about the survival of openoffice too ^^^^^^^^^^^ Spelling Pedant Alert!! > for that matter. I despise office suites, and openoffice is one of the > worse ones. Deferent: a feature of Ptolemaic astronomy. I use OO Calc, Word and Impress in 'mission-critical' applications and I find them really pretty good. Would you like to elaborate on the source of your dislike? Perhaps you prefer troff? -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 03:27:16 2010 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:27:16 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025193130.GT12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:31:30PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:05:26PM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > > I vehemently oppose Rob Ford because of his preposterous transit plan. > > Everything else on this campaign is fluff. > > Well anyone that thinks street cards should be replaced by busses > because leaving room for cars is a good thing is nuts. Your best bet > is to elliminate most cars from downtown. Other major cities around > the world have done it and boy does it make things better. > > If transit worked well, people would not want to drive into downtown. > So the solution is to fix transit, not make it better for cars (because > you can never make enough room for cars in downtown toronto to avoid > traffic problems, and the streetcars are not the problem). If you want > cars to have an easier time, elliminate pedestrians. They get in the > way of cars all the time. :) I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. So, I may be biased, but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. If city wants to assist people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 03:43:16 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:43:16 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101026032716.GA4388-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: a friendly congrats to the forces of idiocy. thanks for making our beds, now lets all cuddle up! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 05:52:24 2010 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:52:24 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101026032716.GA4388-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> On 25/10/10 11:27 PM, William Park wrote: > I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. So, I may be biased, > but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. If city wants to assist > people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". Oh crap, I wanted to stay out of this thread, but this is too much. William, are you also utterly opposed to Public Roads too? Those cost big bucks to build and maintain. Your position on "public car rental" (which I assume is an attempt at humour), reminds me of former Premier Mike Harris, who canceled three (I think the number was three) subways lines over a decade ago. With his limited experience in Northern Ontario, his insight was that people got into their cars to go places. That behaviour does not scale from rural to urban areas. If you add cars in an urban area, eventually the roads are gridlocked. If you add cars in a rural area, you run out of drivers, so there's no gridlock. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 11:44:47 2010 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 07:44:47 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: I think the mature thing to say is "the people have spoken....' But I guess that may be too much for you. On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > a friendly congrats to the forces of idiocy. thanks for making our beds, > now lets all cuddle up! > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 12:05:20 2010 From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (aaron d) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:05:20 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: I think you mean "Half of the people have spoken (and slightly more than half of those wanted Ford)", but whatever. If the guy voted, he is free to voice his disapproval in any manner he so chooses (he's also free to do so even if he DIDN'T vote, but that would be silly). On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > I think the mature thing to say is > "the people have spoken....' > > But I guess that may be too much for you. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 13:41:06 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 09:41:06 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101026032716.GA4388-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 23:27, William Park wrote: > I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. ?So, I may be biased, > but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. ?If city wants to assist > people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". ... I will refrain to comment this or I'll have to be EXTREMELY impolite (to say the least). - FZ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 14:16:52 2010 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:16:52 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC6E2D4.6010606@gmail.com> On 10/25/2010 6:58 PM, Sadiq Saif wrote: > I just got the .deb packages from their site, running smoothly on my > Ubuntu 10.10 system. > > Also, I don't know much about MySQL, but isn't it the industry standard > for web hosting databases etc.? MySQL is great. It's not going to disappear, it may fork though. MySQL kept their codebase under a single, ownable copyright so that they can dual-license the code. This means that all patches and updates have been given to the single copyright holder. The holder of the copyright of this kind of dual license can stop releasing updates under the second license and effectively close their fork. The outcry would be severe enough that an open fork would be inevitable. The real barrier to a fully-open fork of any code is finding reliable leadership, but it's happened in the past. IMHO, Oracle should sell the copyright on the MySQL codebase, it's a conflict of interest to keep it... it's a competing product and it has real value. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 14:24:35 2010 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:24:35 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: Actually no. The voters who have not voted, have also spoken. They didn't care who won. This is how democracy works. And this is a Linux DL, not a soapbox for politics or for insulting political parties/supporters. On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:05 AM, aaron d wrote: > I think you mean "Half of the people have spoken (and slightly more than > half of those wanted Ford)", but whatever. If the guy voted, he is free to > voice his disapproval in any manner he so chooses (he's also free to do so > even if he DIDN'T vote, but that would be silly). > > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > >> I think the mature thing to say is >> "the people have spoken....' >> >> But I guess that may be too much for you. >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 14:30:30 2010 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:30:30 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: There are many people in this city who are unable to vote. I'm one of them. I'll be affected by Rob Ford, I would have voted if I could. 4 years from now I hope I'm a citizen. On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 10:24, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > Actually no. The voters who have not voted, have also spoken.?They didn't > care who won. This is how democracy works. > > And this is a Linux DL, not a soapbox for?politics or for insulting > political parties/supporters. > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:05 AM, aaron d wrote: >> >> I think you mean "Half of the people have spoken (and slightly more than >> half of those wanted Ford)", but whatever. If the guy voted, he is free to >> voice his disapproval in any manner he so chooses (he's also free to do so >> even if he DIDN'T vote, but that would be silly). >> >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Ansar Mohammed wrote: >>> >>> I think the mature thing to say is >>> "the people have spoken....' >>> >>> But I guess that may be too much for you. >>> > > -- Renata Rocha http://renata.org http://www.linkedin.com/in/renatarocha -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 14:37:33 2010 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:37:33 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: And you (and I) will earn that right when we become citizens. Again, this is how democracy works.. On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Renata Rocha wrote: > There are many people in this city who are unable to vote. I'm one of > them. I'll be affected by Rob Ford, I would have voted if I could. > > 4 years from now I hope I'm a citizen. > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 10:24, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > > Actually no. The voters who have not voted, have also spoken. They didn't > > care who won. This is how democracy works. > > > > And this is a Linux DL, not a soapbox for politics or for insulting > > political parties/supporters. > > > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:05 AM, aaron d > wrote: > >> > >> I think you mean "Half of the people have spoken (and slightly more than > >> half of those wanted Ford)", but whatever. If the guy voted, he is free > to > >> voice his disapproval in any manner he so chooses (he's also free to do > so > >> even if he DIDN'T vote, but that would be silly). > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Ansar Mohammed > wrote: > >>> > >>> I think the mature thing to say is > >>> "the people have spoken....' > >>> > >>> But I guess that may be too much for you. > >>> > > > > > > > > -- > Renata Rocha > http://renata.org > http://www.linkedin.com/in/renatarocha > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 14:40:18 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:40:18 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101026144018.GZ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 07:03:05PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > > Well anyone that thinks street cars should be replaced by busses > > because leaving room for cars is a good thing is nuts. ?Your best bet > > is to elliminate most cars from downtown. ?Other major cities around > > the world have done it and boy does it make things better. > > Well said Sorensen. I really can never get how someone can consider > himself/herself a leader when they are ignorant of such hard fact. I also wonder how much more it would cost to operate busses rather than streetcars. Streetcars have very few parts to service (electric motors need very little service compared to a combustion engine, never mind the hybrid busses that have a combustion engine, a generator and electric motors). Streetcars move a lot more people using one driver than a bus can. So using busses means more drivers to pay, more busses than streetcars to service and higher service cost per vehicle too. I don't know what TTC drivers make, but I still think needing less of them must be cheaper. Now the advantage of the bus is that is doesn't get stuck if another bus breaks down on the route or some car decides to have a crash in front of it. That doesn't seem to be that big a deal in general though but perhaps I am wrong about how many issues the streetcars run into. The dedicated streetcar ways seem to work pretty well at avoiding traffic though. Of course busses can have the same thing if you are willing to dedicate streets to them like Ottawa has done. Given the hatred of streetcars being in the way of cars I highly doubt Ford wants to give busses any right of ways. Now as for doing what other major cities around the world have done, how about banning cars from queen street and only allowing streetcars there along with bicycles and pedestrians. With all the stores around that would probably be really nice. It isn't as if driving on queen street ever gets you anywhere. Cetainly doesn't get you to the stores because there is never parking available. > > If transit worked well, people would not want to drive into downtown. > > So the solution is to fix transit, not make it better for cars (because > > you can never make enough room for cars in downtown toronto to avoid > > traffic problems, and the streetcars are not the problem). ?If you want > > cars to have an easier time, elliminate pedestrians. ?They get in the > > way of cars all the time. ?:) > The biggest problem is actually not the space. If that was the only > problem, I would be open to debating on the pro and cons of being car > friendly. The biggest problem is sustainability of that mode of > transport. > > We have the oil price being $83 per barrel despite all the developed > countries being barely above recession. It should therefore be > plainly obvious to anybody who consider themselves a leader the moment > growth will reach around 2% in most developed countries, oil prices > will go past $100 again. Actually, even if we do not have any growth > going forward, we will still have oil selling above $130 in 2015. If > we will still be heavily dependent of oil at that time, that shock > alone will push us back into a recession. Does anyone know why we have gas at $1.10/L with oil at $83/barrel when a couple of years ago we had gas at $1.10/L with oil at $130/barrel? How does this work exactly? > That alone should imply we should be investing every dollars we have > on less oil depended transport mode. People like Ford are managers, > but I do not unfortunately perceive him as a leader. Sure, he may > balance the budget, but what good is that if he leaves the city barely > unable to survive an impending calamity. We have been running > governments like business and we will pay dearly for it. I think Ford is trying to cater to short term complaints rather than long term solutions. I don't particularly like the idea of tolls for driving in Toronto that some have proposed, but that's probably mostly because transit in Toronto is so bad. Now if someone would fix transit and then after they fixed transit they implemented tolls, then I would probably be OK with that. I unfortunately suspect that they would be more likely to introduce tolls, get used to the extra funding, and still not fix transit. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 14:43:09 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:43:09 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101026032716.GA4388-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20101026144309.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:27:16PM -0400, William Park wrote: > I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. So, I may be biased, > but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. If city wants to assist > people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". Well I will just consider you crazy. Plenty of people are really awful drivers and should not be allowed to operate cars. As for commuting 100km per day, that's silly too. I think my 40km commute total per day is already too long. Mississauga is also a seriously bad case of urban sprawl making any decent transit system nearly impossible to implement. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 14:45:42 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:45:42 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20101026144542.GB12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 07:44:47AM -0400, Ansar Mohammed wrote: > I think the mature thing to say is > "the people have spoken....' > > But I guess that may be too much for you. Or at least about 50% of those that bothered to vote have. What was the turn out this time? He did run a very nice to the point campaign. Some of the points may be bad but they were very clear. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 14:55:23 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:55:23 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: <56e4b1d04093b3331738dbda4aa96862.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <56e4b1d04093b3331738dbda4aa96862.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20101026145523.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 08:39:18PM -0400, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Actually > > I am probably pretty indefferent about the survival of openoffice too > ^^^^^^^^^^^ Spelling Pedant Alert!! I should remember to use my spell checker. That should have been indifferent. > > for that matter. I despise office suites, and openoffice is one of the > > worse ones. > > Deferent: a feature of Ptolemaic astronomy. > > I use OO Calc, Word and Impress in 'mission-critical' applications and I > find them really pretty good. Would you like to elaborate on the source of > your dislike? Perhaps you prefer troff? Openoffice has a tendancy to try to be helpful and when it gets it wrong it is hard to convince (at least microsoft got it right that when it does something to "help" hitting undo just undoes the help, not what you did originally). Sometimes backspaces can undo the mess, or other methods. Still rather annoying. My wife also says it's colaboration features are awful. If I have to make a nice looking document, I will use latex. At least then it does what I say and nothing else and it is visible where everything will happen. And I can write it in an editor I like using. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 14:56:41 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:56:41 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101026145641.GD12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 06:58:43PM -0400, Sadiq Saif wrote: > I just got the .deb packages from their site, running smoothly on my Ubuntu > 10.10 system. > > Also, I don't know much about MySQL, but isn't it the industry standard for > web hosting databases etc.? It is common, but postgresql is a much better database, and also doesn't have any threat of Oracle hanging over it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 15:09:24 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:09:24 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: <20101025223807.GY12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 05:59:09PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: >> This, too, is not terribly encouraging of optimism today :-( >> http://lwn.net/Articles/411570/ >> >> But it may be reason to stand behind The Document Foundation... >> http://www.documentfoundation.org/ >> >> I've got a machine pulling down the source code: >> >> git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/libreoffice/build >> ./autogen.sh --with-git --with-num-cpus=2 >> ./download >> make >> >> That "download" step is a doozy, paralleling the whole "how many repos >> am I cloning?!?!??!" characteristic of doing a build of Android. ?The >> code's pullable, in any case... > > So how much of what Oracle bought will survive Oracle's treatment of it? > > I think they may find that they have nothing left in the end the way > they are going about things. And they may not care about that, vis-a-vis the "open sores" stuff. (Somehow, it seems appropriate to use that normally perjorative term in this case.) I think Oracle were interested in two things: a) Java, which bodes some amount of ill for people with dependency on it. (And as I know you're a non-fan of Java, I expect you don't care very much about this :-).) b) Sun's hardware business, to extend Oracle's "integrated offerings." All these other side things are just side matters. Oracle has enough lawyers on staff that they can readily throw a few at the bigger OSS projects, to try to capture some value and/or control. But it would be a mistake to consider that "strategic." > Of course I am personally hoping Oracle succeeds at killing off Java. Hmm. a) ? :-) > I am pretty indefferent about the survival of Solaris and MySql. ?Actually > I am probably pretty indefferent about the survival of openoffice too > for that matter. ?I despise office suites, and openoffice is one of the > worse ones. The thing to watch out for is Oracle's involvement with the Linux kernel, which, of course predates this. OCFS and BTRFS are interesting, but I have always been wary about them. How Oracle behaves over the next little while seems likely to punctuate why one might want to be wary... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 15:17:11 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:17:11 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101026151711.GE12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:09:24AM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > And they may not care about that, vis-a-vis the "open sores" stuff. > (Somehow, it seems appropriate to use that normally perjorative term > in this case.) > > I think Oracle were interested in two things: > > a) Java, which bodes some amount of ill for people with dependency on > it. (And as I know you're a non-fan of Java, I expect you don't care > very much about this :-).) > > b) Sun's hardware business, to extend Oracle's "integrated offerings." Certainly that part makes sense, although it seems they are already pissing of their hardware business customers in many cases. > All these other side things are just side matters. Oracle has enough > lawyers on staff that they can readily throw a few at the bigger OSS > projects, to try to capture some value and/or control. But it would > be a mistake to consider that "strategic." > > > Of course I am personally hoping Oracle succeeds at killing off Java. > > Hmm. a) ? :-) Of course. > The thing to watch out for is Oracle's involvement with the Linux > kernel, which, of course predates this. > > OCFS and BTRFS are interesting, but I have always been wary about > them. How Oracle behaves over the next little while seems likely to > punctuate why one might want to be wary... Well Oracle does have an interest in using Linux as the OS to run their database on top of and the point of BTRFS is to get a decent filesystem to do so. Oracle certainly does NOT like Microsoft and would rather not depend on them for an OS to run Oracle on. I doubt Oracle thinks Solaris will ever become popular enough to be worth the bother. But as long as it does anything Linux doesn't, it will be worth a bit of effort to keep it going (even if they don't put much effort into improving it). I don't think Oracle can harm Linux and it would not serve any advantage for them. Oracle is as far as I can tell not interested in being in the OS business. They may in fact understand that operating systems are a commodity and not a viable market (Only Microsoft thinks it still is). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 15:44:48 2010 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:44:48 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: <20101026145523.GC12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <56e4b1d04093b3331738dbda4aa96862.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20101026145523.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <818af3ee6b566110d662a016f7a60443.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Len Sorensen wrote: > If I have to make a nice looking document, I will use latex. At least > then it does what I say and nothing else and it is visible where > everything will happen. And I can write it in an editor I like using. I just finished a large book project (Analog Circuit Design) using Latex, and it's great for that kind of project. Word or OO Writer would be very cumbersome by comparison. But for writing a short document, it seems to me using Latex is like using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. So what do you use to write a one or two page document? -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 16:17:07 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:17:07 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: <818af3ee6b566110d662a016f7a60443.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <56e4b1d04093b3331738dbda4aa96862.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20101026145523.GC12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <818af3ee6b566110d662a016f7a60443.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20101026161707.GF12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:44:48AM -0400, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > I just finished a large book project (Analog Circuit Design) using Latex, > and it's great for that kind of project. Word or OO Writer would be very > cumbersome by comparison. But for writing a short document, it seems to me > using Latex is like using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. > > So what do you use to write a one or two page document? Plain text, or latex. I don't believe in changing the tool just because the size of the document is different. If you are used to it and have the templates already, a two page document is trivial. Why does your two page document not deserve to look consistent and good? And if it doesn't deserve that, then use plain text. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 17:10:27 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:10:27 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: <4CC6E2D4.6010606-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC6E2D4.6010606@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 26 October 2010 10:16, Mike Kallies wrote: > On 10/25/2010 6:58 PM, Sadiq Saif wrote: > > I just got the .deb packages from their site, running smoothly on my > > Ubuntu 10.10 system. > > > > Also, I don't know much about MySQL, but isn't it the industry standard > > for web hosting databases etc.? > > MySQL is great. It's not going to disappear, it may fork though. > I am already starting to hear and read a lot more noise about PostgreSQL as an alternative backend with a community that has long been in the shadows of mySQL. It's quite possible that there may be more activity to make it even more suitable as a mySQL replacement. IMHO, Oracle should sell the copyright on the MySQL codebase, it's a > conflict of interest to keep it... it's a competing product and it has > real value. > It *was* a competing product. Now it can be a loss-leader, and Oracle's way to take on Microsoft in the low end. Likely won't get sold. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 17:16:22 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:16:22 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC5CC9D.7000306-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5CC9D.7000306@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On 25 October 2010 14:29, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > > By the way, there is nothing "friendly" about calling hundreds of thousands > of people idiots. > That didn't stop former federal politician and incumbent Mississauga councillor Carolyn Parrish from doing just that. Thankfully, the Hazel-wannabe-in-waiting lost in Ward 6, and her perception as McCallion's unstoppable replacement is now gone. That is the best news from the night IMO. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 17:19:41 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:19:41 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <20101025200534.GV12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 25 October 2010 16:21, wrote: > My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that if you dislike > all of the candidates you can formally reject your ballot. You go to the > voting station, obtain a ballot, and then say to the polling officer 'I > reject this ballot'. They have to mark you down, and at the end of the > election, there should be a total available of rejected ballots. > > Would be in any way effective as a strategy? I doubt it. > One other option was to vote for Rossi, who was still on the ballot even though he'd dropped out of the race. Apparently more than 1,000 people did just that. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 17:27:19 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:27:19 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101026144309.GA12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <20101026144309.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 26 October 2010 10:43, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:27:16PM -0400, William Park wrote: > > I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. So, I may be biased, > > but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. If city wants to assist > > people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". > > Well I will just consider you crazy. Plenty of people are really awful > drivers and should not be allowed to operate cars. As for commuting > 100km per day, that's silly too. I think my 40km commute total per day > is already too long. > > Mississauga is also a seriously bad case of urban sprawl making any > decent transit system nearly impossible to implement. > It can work for the various concentrations of housing that are going up around a couple of the main shopping malls (ie, Square 1, Erin Mills Town Centre and Meadowvale Town Centre). There are plans there for quite a few dedicated bus laneways -- eventually becoming LRT rights-of-way -- in Peel and York Region that are beyond Ford's ability to kill. Who knows? The fastest transit from the airport to Scarborough could end up being along Highway 7 if Toronto politicians can't agree on a vision for transit going forward... - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 17:28:55 2010 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:28:55 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <20101025200534.GV12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC70FD7.3090307@rogers.com> On 26/10/10 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > One other option was to vote for Rossi, who was still on the ballot even > though he'd dropped out of the race. > Apparently more than 1,000 people did just that. They may have voted in advance polls. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 18:36:41 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 14:36:41 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <20101025200534.GV12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC71FB9.9000607@rogers.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > One other option was to vote for Rossi, who was still on the ballot > even though he'd dropped out of the race. > Apparently more than 1,000 people did just that. How many of those voted at advance polls, prior to his dropping out? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 20:43:36 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:43:36 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: >> for voting! just a friendly reminder not to let the forces of idiocy >> position their mascot above us in triumph. >> >> NO FORD! > > I'm sufficiently unhappy with the options out there that I wonder if > his "temporary triumph" wouldn't be a well-deserved expression of > contempt for the city. ?Historically, it seems pretty common that our > democracies get the kind of leadership that they deserve, particularly > when that leadership stinks. > > I find the prospect of the city having completely doubled back on > political tendencies (e.g. - shifting from re-electing NDP-biased > Miller to the "conservative-ish" Ford) makes me consider the result > compromised. ?People don't swing that far, that fast. ?If they do, we > should be expecting the federal Tories to take over most Toronto > seats, which seems implausible. > > And I'm with Clifford - if you are keen to call a very large number of > people "idiots," then whatever you are, it's not "friendly," and you > shouldn't try to mistake yourself as such. > > My best idea thus far has been to consider expressing my contempt for > the campaign by spoiling my ballot. ?That's not a terribly friendly > option, but I haven't seen a candidate I actually want to vote for. I am honestly mystified by the hatred of Miller in this city. No one can ever tell me _why_ they hate him, I just get this 'well he's really left wing'. Facts are simple. Miller moved this city forward with significant investments in transit, saved Toronto billions of future dollars by negotiating an end to the city workers banked holiday pay, and if anyone would just take the time, rather than simply repeat the nonsense from the pundits on the idiot box, they would see that Miller has a pretty good vision for this city, and he has reasonable plans for accomplishing this vision. Everything is right on the front page of his website. Oh, wait, I forgot, he's just a lying, leftie NDP elitist flunkie. Of course everything a right wing retard who barely made it through high school says is _much_ more trustworthy. I just don't understand why people see investment and development as some kind of great evil. To me, Pantalone was the obvious choice. The only one who wasn't repeating this myth that lower taxes are the salvation of people everywhere. -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 21:00:42 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:00:42 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 04:43:36PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > I am honestly mystified by the hatred of Miller in this city. No one > can ever tell me _why_ they hate him, I just get this 'well he's > really left wing'. > > Facts are simple. Miller moved this city forward with significant > investments in transit, saved Toronto billions of future dollars by > negotiating an end to the city workers banked holiday pay, and if > anyone would just take the time, rather than simply repeat the > nonsense from the pundits on the idiot box, they would see that Miller > has a pretty good vision for this city, and he has reasonable plans > for accomplishing this vision. Everything is right on the front page > of his website. Well Miller decided a bridge to the island airport was a bad idea and claimed that getting elected meant the people supported his idea. Well I think he was just the least bad choice at the time and lots of people did not agree with his entire platform and highly disagreed with parts of it. Certainly a lot of his platform was popular and he got elected, but not all of it. As for transit, what has he really done? Looks pretty much the same now as when he was originally elected. Sure there is talks of extending the subway in a few places, sometime in the next decade. I suppose the streetcars got some dedicated lanes in a few places, which is a good thing. A lot of new busses get bought (paid for by other levels of government as far as I recall), including some very unreliable hybrid busses (It seems version 2 is working out a lot better than version 1 of those though so perhaps they will turn out OK). > Oh, wait, I forgot, he's just a lying, leftie NDP elitist flunkie. Of > course everything a right wing retard who barely made it through high > school says is _much_ more trustworthy. > > I just don't understand why people see investment and development as > some kind of great evil. To me, Pantalone was the obvious choice. The > only one who wasn't repeating this myth that lower taxes are the > salvation of people everywhere. For people without much money, tax cuts don't help much. They need public services like transit and such. I don't personally need them, but I think they are a good idea, and I couldn't care less about tax cuts. My taxes are just fine the way they are. Just because I could afford to pay for things myself directly doesn't mean I don't think publicly funded services aren't a better idea. After all plenty of people can't afford to pay for it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 26 21:01:13 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:01:13 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <20101025200534.GV12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC74199.2010709@dinamis.com> On 10/26/2010 01:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > On 25 October 2010 16:21, > wrote: > > My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that if you > dislike > all of the candidates you can formally reject your ballot. You go to the > voting station, obtain a ballot, and then say to the polling officer 'I > reject this ballot'. They have to mark you down, and at the end of the > election, there should be a total available of rejected ballots. > > Would be in any way effective as a strategy? I doubt it. > > > One other option was to vote for Rossi, who was still on the ballot even > though he'd dropped out of the race. > Apparently more than 1,000 people did just that. There were 40(!) mayoral candidates on the ballot. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 01:34:59 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Thomas Milne | I am honestly mystified by the hatred of Miller in this city. No one | can ever tell me _why_ they hate him, I just get this 'well he's | really left wing'. Me too. (The garbage strike did look like a bad failure.) But then I didn't see anything that wrong with Dion. "Greenshift" was mostly a good market-oriented approach. | Of | course everything a right wing retard who barely made it through high | school says is _much_ more trustworthy. Now that is over the top. Why would you call Ford a retard? I imagine that you have no evidence for that. | I just don't understand why people see investment and development as | some kind of great evil. To me, Pantalone was the obvious choice. The | only one who wasn't repeating this myth that lower taxes are the | salvation of people everywhere. I have to say that I never got a feeling of vision from any candidate. Maybe the visions could not fit through keyholes through which they talk to me (TV news & newspapers). The one debate I watched (there were a lot) was rhetoric, at best. Ammend that. Ford's vision appeared to be so small to fit through the keyhole. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 01:48:36 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:48:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Christopher Browne | This, too, is not terribly encouraging of optimism today :-( | http://lwn.net/Articles/411570/ I saw that story unfolding the week before last & wrote private mail to a couple of the board members (one now ex). One of them is speaking at the FSOSS conference this week He lives in Toronto. Perhaps naively, I think that this is bad for both OO and LO. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marthter-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 02:00:31 2010 From: marthter-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (marthter) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:00:31 -0400 Subject: OT today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101026032716.GA4388-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4CC787BF.4040206@yahoo.ca> On 10-10-25 11:27 PM, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:31:30PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:05:26PM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: >>> I vehemently oppose Rob Ford because of his preposterous transit plan. >>> Everything else on this campaign is fluff. >> Well anyone that thinks street cards should be replaced by busses >> because leaving room for cars is a good thing is nuts. Your best bet >> is to elliminate most cars from downtown. Other major cities around >> the world have done it and boy does it make things better. >> >> If transit worked well, people would not want to drive into downtown. >> So the solution is to fix transit, not make it better for cars (because >> you can never make enough room for cars in downtown toronto to avoid >> traffic problems, and the streetcars are not the problem). If you want >> cars to have an easier time, elliminate pedestrians. They get in the >> way of cars all the time. :) > I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. So, I may be biased, > but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. If city wants to assist > people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". This more than just biased, this is the kind of selfish attitude that, in my experience, is typical of most conservative politics and its supporters... "_I_ don't go to the library so cut library budget." "_I_ don't have school age kids so cut education funding." "_I_ don't go to the public swimming pools so there does not need to be a parks and rec budget." "_I_ don't go to the museum, art gallery, theatre so there is no need for cultural and arts funding." Having these things contributes to the well-being of the society as a whole, whether you in particular use them or not. And, I'm sorry but if people who are "utterly opposed to public transit" got their way, many of the people pumping your gas and serving your drive-through coffee couldn't get to their work so that YOU can commute to your work. I'd much rather live in a civilization than just in an economy. Martin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 03:08:31 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC5E1CB.5060204-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5E1CB.5060204@dinamis.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > You don't need to be on the voter roll to vote. You just need to produce ID > at the polling station. Some polling stations will even accept a sworn > affidavit. _Now_ you tell me! ;) Seriously, that is cool - I wish I had known a couple of days ago. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 03:31:29 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC5EC70.6060601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5EC70.6060601@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, James Knott wrote: > You don't have to own property to vote. As soon as you became a citizen you > were eligible. What I was alluding to was that my wife was a citizen when we bought our house. It appears the city automatically put her on the roll when they processed the title transfer. I was a permanent resident at the time of the purchase and became a citizen later. She got a voter card but I didn't. I wish I had known I could vote anyway... oh well. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 03:32:03 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:32:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5EC70.6060601@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Timothy Hildred wrote: > "You can be sure I won't be voting for Ford. I live in Mississauga. ;-) Wow that would have made a great bumper sticker ;) Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 04:10:40 2010 From: hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Herb Richter) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:10:40 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <20101026144309.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC7A640.7080002@buynet.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > On 26 October 2010 10:43, Lennart Sorensen > > > wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:27:16PM -0400, William Park wrote: > > I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. So, I may be > biased, > > but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. If city wants to assist > > people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". > > Well I will just consider you crazy. Plenty of people are really > awful > drivers and should not be allowed to operate cars. As for commuting > 100km per day, that's silly too. I think my 40km commute total > per day > is already too long. > > Mississauga is also a seriously bad case of urban sprawl making any > decent transit system nearly impossible to implement. > > > > It can work for the various concentrations of housing that are going > up around a couple of the main shopping malls (ie, Square 1, Erin > Mills Town Centre and Meadowvale Town Centre). > > There are plans there for quite a few dedicated bus laneways -- > eventually becoming LRT rights-of-way -- in Peel and York Region that > are beyond Ford's ability to kill. Over the past two or three years I have been involved with a (urban) revitalization study (Finch Warden area) with city planners, politicians, community members and a developer who sought to build 8 condo towers of up to 38 stories high with 1400 households in the parking lot of Bridlewood Mall. One of the major areas we considered was transit and traffic. It became very clear to me that planners are just plain doing it wrong - that increasing capacity is NOT the answer! ...decreasing volume would be much more effective. Much like the thinking 20 and 30 years ago with respect to garbage where it was just assumed that you could always increase capacity by building another landfill. Transportation planners seem to have only one plan: to just add another lane for cars or buses or bikes. At some point you can't - just like we now can't add garbage dumps and now have to "reduce, reuse and recycle". In transportation terms this could be to reduce the number AND LENGTH of commutes. I constantly argued that any re-development that would convert commercial property to "mixed-use" be required TO BE mixed use and that for every new household built, there be at least one new permanent job created on the site. This would reduce or shorten many commutes. Of course developers fight this kind of thinking because residential condos are much more lucrative than employment space. And here is why I voted for Ford: during the summer, with much urgency, the developer and the (city) planning department pushed through the study and a somewhat downsized (re-zoning) application with what appears to have been a lot of sleazy back room deals and mis-information. They pulled out all the stops to get these though in the last session of that council. It was clear to me that they did not want to face a new council and a new mayor like Ford. On another note; one question I often put to the intensification obsessed planners was "when is a city full?" ...when we are all standing shoulder to shoulder like in a Star Trek episode? ...I never got an answer! ...I think Ford did at one point wounder why we have to keep increasing the population in the city at increasing rates. I hope Ford will keep his promise to ask the common sense questions and to demand answers that make sense. Like maybe, "can't the city save a lot of money by running Linux on more of its computers?" Toronto needs a *lot* of fresh new thinking. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 04:57:39 2010 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:57:39 -0400 Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: <4CC66C98.80909-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 01:52:24AM -0400, Yanni Chiu wrote: > On 25/10/10 11:27 PM, William Park wrote: > >I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. So, I may be biased, > >but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. If city wants to assist > >people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". > > Oh crap, I wanted to stay out of this thread, but this is too much. > > William, are you also utterly opposed to Public Roads too? Those cost > big bucks to build and maintain. > > Your position on "public car rental" (which I assume is an attempt at > humour), reminds me of former Premier Mike Harris, who canceled three (I > think the number was three) subways lines over a decade ago. With his > limited experience in Northern Ontario, his insight was that people got > into their cars to go places. That behaviour does not scale from rural > to urban areas. If you add cars in an urban area, eventually the roads > are gridlocked. If you add cars in a rural area, you run out of drivers, > so there's no gridlock. Perhaps, it's rural vs urban, but it's about money too. For some strange reason, public transit attracts wrong type of people, solution, and policy. Public transit promotes increase in population density, when public/national interest points to decrease in density. 100km is 1 hour drive, which is nothing. You can drive to London and back with the time you typically spend in grid-locked GTA commute. Solution to traffic jam is reduction in population density, not more public transit. -- William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 05:05:34 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:05:34 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4CC7B31E.5070208@dinamis.com> On 10/25/2010 11:43 PM, Timothy Hildred wrote: > a friendly congrats to the forces of idiocy. thanks for making our beds, > now lets all cuddle up! So idiots are those who voted for a candidate different than the one you liked? You need to grow up. I'll bet you'd be blathering on about "the democratic process" and "the will of the people" had your candidate been elected. To write off 383,501 people as "idiots" says more about you than it does about them. The three leading contenders were all imperfect choices. Many people picked the one they thought was the least imperfect. That doesn't necessarily mean people agreed with everything that Ford said but the one thing that I think really resonated was "The gravy train stops now." It was a catchy slogan, like Miller's broom prop, and like all such slogans and props, had a bit of truth running through it even if it might be an over-simplification. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 05:05:44 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:05:44 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101026210042.GG12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC7B328.40902@dinamis.com> On 10/26/2010 05:00 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 04:43:36PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> I am honestly mystified by the hatred of Miller in this city. No one >> can ever tell me _why_ they hate him, I just get this 'well he's >> really left wing'. >> >> Facts are simple. Miller moved this city forward with significant >> investments in transit, saved Toronto billions of future dollars by >> negotiating an end to the city workers banked holiday pay, and if >> anyone would just take the time, rather than simply repeat the >> nonsense from the pundits on the idiot box, they would see that Miller >> has a pretty good vision for this city, and he has reasonable plans >> for accomplishing this vision. Everything is right on the front page >> of his website. > > Well Miller decided a bridge to the island airport was a bad idea and > claimed that getting elected meant the people supported his idea. This was a success, though not in the way he or the NIMBY groups who opposed the bridge thought it would be. Porter Air built up a first-class airline on the island despite what a columnist characterized as "the world's most pointless ferry ride". We now have a viable option for short-hop flights to various destinations that we didn't have before. That's a good thing and we have David Miller to thank for it. > Well I > think he was just the least bad choice at the time and lots of people did > not agree with his entire platform and highly disagreed with parts of it. > Certainly a lot of his platform was popular and he got elected, but not > all of it. > > As for transit, what has he really done? Looks pretty much the same now > as when he was originally elected. Sure there is talks of extending > the subway in a few places, sometime in the next decade. I suppose > the streetcars got some dedicated lanes in a few places, which is a > good thing. Having a "light rail" line that bisects streets destroys neighbourhoods. Spadina is now essentially a highway with a rail line through the middle with lots of ugly overhead wiring. Merchants along St. Clair Ave. W. fought hard against the same thing in their neighbourhood but lost. Arguably, you couldn't make Sheppard Ave. much uglier than it already is by doing the same but light rail lines do have their drawbacks, not that busses are a wonderful substitute. Look at the Scarborough LRT. It has to be replaced because politicians of the day made the expedient rather than the right choice. It has never worked reliably and now, they apparently can't get replacement cars. The right choice was and continues to be a subway. That was the original vision and hopefully, that will be implemented. It's amazing that Ford's plan of completing the Sheppard subway and replacement of the Scarborough LRT with a subway line is seen as "radical". That plan has been in existence for more than 20 years but no one has had the political will or vision to implement it. It remains to be seen how successful Ford will be at it. It's insane that we're still arguing over something that should have been completed 20 years ago. Read if you want to have a good laugh over the grandiose plans of 1985 for "Network 2011". None of it ever got implemented. You can bet expensive consultants were paid handsomely for all sorts of reports, models, etc. but it amounted to nothing. We have 248 streetcars, most of which are apparently near the end of their service life as per WikiPedia . "Unique track gauge" alone sounds like it's just a recipe for overpaying. The best analogy I can think of is PCs vs. proprietary mini-computers and we know how that one turned out. Having said that, I doubt Ford will be able to convince Council to get rid of streetcars so those who like streetcars don't have to worry about this issue, at least not until there is a viable replacement, which isn't going to happen anytime soon. By the way, reading in the second WikiPedia article about the Queen and Eglinton subway lines that were started but never got completed is sad. Imagine how differently the city would have evolved had there been two more east/west lines. > A lot of new busses get bought (paid for by other levels of > government as far as I recall), including some very unreliable hybrid > busses (It seems version 2 is working out a lot better than version 1 > of those though so perhaps they will turn out OK). > >> Oh, wait, I forgot, he's just a lying, leftie NDP elitist flunkie. Of >> course everything a right wing retard who barely made it through high >> school says is _much_ more trustworthy. More people vote directly for the Mayor of Toronto than for any other politician in Canada, including our Premier and Prime Minister, both of whom are elected directly only by their respective parties and then by constituents in their respective ridings. Given that, Ford seems to have done rather well for "a right wing retard", which goes to show that success, or lack of thereof, in high school has little correlation to success later in life, assuming that he really did struggle to get through high school. I recall a Princeton grad, no less, who authorized "wise guy" political ads during this mayoral campaign. It just goes to show that formal education and common sense aren't necessarily correlated either. (What in the world was he thinking anyway? What a stain on an otherwise reasonable campaign.) >> I just don't understand why people see investment and development as >> some kind of great evil. To me, Pantalone was the obvious choice. To you and 95,481 other people, apparently. Unfortunately for Pantalone, 289,832 people thought that Smitherman was a better choice, and 383,501 people, almost one in two of those who voted, thought that Ford was the best choice. Every one of the 37 other candidates managed to garner some votes, including Gerald Derome, who came in last with 251 votes. Watch that guy - he has nowhere to go but up. :) >> The >> only one who wasn't repeating this myth that lower taxes are the >> salvation of people everywhere. > > For people without much money, tax cuts don't help much. They need > public services like transit and such. I don't personally need them, > but I think they are a good idea, and I couldn't care less about tax cuts. > My taxes are just fine the way they are. Toronto has the highest level of business taxes in the GTA. That causes many businesses to move to Mississauga, Vaughan, or Markham, which all have substantially lower business taxes but higher residential property taxes. That contributes to urban sprawl, smog, reduced viability of public transit (you need higher densities for mass transit), and gridlock, all things that no matter whom you voted for, you would probably agree are undesirable things. Cutting business taxes would be a good start to making Toronto more competitive in the region. I don't want Toronto to be a bedroom community for the outlying regions. I want people to be able to live close to where they work and vice versa. Only then can we put a dent into the serious problems that we have with the unsustainable sprawl, traffic, and concomitant environmental impact. > Just because I could afford to pay for things myself directly doesn't > mean I don't think publicly funded services aren't a better idea. > After all plenty of people can't afford to pay for it. In 2006, the city allegedly overpaid by $100 million for new subway cars due to single-source contracts. That isn't exactly pocket change and that is just one of many things that Council spent money on. Who knows how they spent the other few billion? We already know that some councillors spent their office budgets stupidly while some councillors were promoting stupidities like $3.5 million flag poles. If the allegations of overpaying $100 million on the subway cars are true, and we'll never know because it already happened, that was $100 million that couldn't have been spent on something else, or $100 million too much that they took from taxpayers, who in turn couldn't have spent it on something else themselves. There is always an opportunity cost for such decisions, no matter how noble the motives may be. I've read irrelevant arguments of how buying from Bombardier, we were supporting a major employer in Thunder Bay. It isn't the job of the TTC or Toronto City Council to engage in economic development efforts beyond its borders. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 05:05:47 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:05:47 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC7A640.7080002-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <20101026144309.GA12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC7A640.7080002@buynet.com> Message-ID: <4CC7B32B.8050508@dinamis.com> On 10/27/2010 12:10 AM, Herb Richter wrote: > Over the past two or three years I have been involved with a (urban) > revitalization study (Finch Warden area) with city planners, > politicians, community members and a developer who sought to build 8 > condo towers of up to 38 stories high with 1400 households in the > parking lot of Bridlewood Mall. > One of the major areas we considered was transit and traffic. It became > very clear to me that planners are just plain doing it wrong - that > increasing capacity is NOT the answer! ...decreasing volume would be > much more effective. Much like the thinking 20 and 30 years ago with > respect to garbage where it was just assumed that you could always > increase capacity by building another landfill. Transportation planners > seem to have only one plan: to just add another lane for cars or buses > or bikes. At some point you can't - just like we now can't add garbage > dumps and now have to "reduce, reuse and recycle". > > In transportation terms this could be to reduce the number AND LENGTH of > commutes. I constantly argued that any re-development that would convert > commercial property to "mixed-use" be required TO BE mixed use and that > for every new household built, there be at least one new permanent job > created on the site. This would reduce or shorten many commutes. Of > course developers fight this kind of thinking because residential condos > are much more lucrative than employment space. That is a perfectly rational economic choice for developers and I don't think they're evil for making it. If you had the choice of building office space in Toronto or Markham, all things being equal, you'd probably pick Markham because you're more likely get a better return on your investment there. The total rent for office space in Markham is often the same as the taxes alone in Toronto for comparable space. That being the case, the city is actually in competition with landlords for the scarce dollars of tenants. If the city taxes more, that leaves less room for landlords to charge rent. If the city taxes less, that leaves more room for rent. It's not hard to guess which is the better situation for landlords. > And here is why I voted for Ford: Oh! So you're the one! :) > during the summer, with much urgency, > the developer and the (city) planning department pushed through the > study and a somewhat downsized (re-zoning) application with what appears > to have been a lot of sleazy back room deals and mis-information. They > pulled out all the stops to get these though in the last session of that > council. It was clear to me that they did not want to face a new council > and a new mayor like Ford. > On another note; one question I often put to the intensification > obsessed planners was "when is a city full?" ...when we are all standing > shoulder to shoulder like in a Star Trek episode? ...I never got an > answer! ...I think Ford did at one point wounder why we have to keep > increasing the population in the city at increasing rates. ... for which he was labelled "anti-immigrant" by the Toronto Star. > I hope Ford will keep his promise to ask the common sense questions and > to demand answers that make sense. > Like maybe, "can't the city save a lot of money by running Linux on more > of its computers?" Or, "How many commuters can we get off the roads if we had real broadband Internet service as opposed to the illusion of broadband service that we currently have?" I've been trying to get fibre optic to the node on the municipal agenda. I think it's a travesty that Toronto Hydro is digging up streets, driveways, and gardens all over the city to bury electrical services without putting a strand of fibre in the conduits while they're doing this. Fibre to the node would be an enabler for more telecommuting and for creating opportunities that we can't even imagine right now. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 05:43:20 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:43:20 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC70FD7.3090307-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025200534.GV12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC70FD7.3090307@rogers.com> Message-ID: On 26 October 2010 13:28, Yanni Chiu wrote: > On 26/10/10 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >> >> One other option was to vote for Rossi, who was still on the ballot even >> though he'd dropped out of the race. >> Apparently more than 1,000 people did just that. >> > > They may have voted in advance polls. Yes, but I simply point out that the option was available on voting day as an alternative to ballot spoiling. Came really close to doing it myself. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 05:52:25 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:52:25 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 October 2010 21:48, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > > > Perhaps naively, I think that this is bad for both OO and LO. > > > Well, it (ie, the fracturing of loyalties, and the emergence of two parallel communities) can't be good. But I think that the corporate culture of Oracle is coming across as too heavy handed for the OOo folks. OTOH, emergence of the new project as independent from any one vendor may actually increase involvement from companies such as Red Hat that would not support something so closely tied to a competitor. Arguably, though, this is happening at a time when cloud-based services such as Google Docs are threatening all desktop suites. I use Impress more than Writer or calc these days because most documents that are not private (and especially those being done collaboratively) are well suited to cloud services. Inevitably I see something similar happening to mySQL. And the PostgresSQL folks are just sitting back and being patient... - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 06:14:56 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 02:14:56 -0400 Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: <20101027045739.GA4222-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On 27 October 2010 00:57, William Park wrote: > > Perhaps, it's rural vs urban, but it's about money too. For some > strange reason, public transit attracts wrong type of people, solution, > and policy. Public transit promotes increase in population density, > when public/national interest points to decrease in density. > > Please back this up. All reasonable planning research I have seen indicates that *higher* density is needed in order to make delivery of services (not just transit, but also things such as social services and parks). Higher density, not suburban sprawl, is the sustainable option for the public interest. The other public interest is served by reducing turf wars. You would be able to our your TTC pass between the dozen or so GO train stations within 416. One thing I'm looking forward to post-election is an end to the squabbling over the TTC's use of the Presto card. > 100km is 1 hour drive, which is nothing. You can drive to London and > back with the time you typically spend in grid-locked GTA commute. > And if more of those grid-locked Torontonians were underground using transit, your ride would be a lot nicer. Then again, driving one's self on the 401 west of Kitchener is a truly mind-numbing experience. I for a while had a contract that required me to actually commute from Brampton to London; I hated it. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 06:36:28 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 02:36:28 -0400 Subject: OLPC on the Colbert Report Message-ID: Monday's episode featured an interview with Nicholas Negroponte, head of the One Laptop Per Child Project. The interview clip can be found here: http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-colbert-report/interviews-a-z/the-colbert-report---interviews-a/clip275903#clip275903 Not bad stuff. The highlight IMO was watching them both fling the little laptops onto the floor to demonstrate their resiliancy. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 12:43:29 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:43:29 -0400 Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: <20101027045739.GA4222-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:57 AM, William Park wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 01:52:24AM -0400, Yanni Chiu wrote: >> On 25/10/10 11:27 PM, William Park wrote: >> >I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. ?So, I may be biased, >> >but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. ?If city wants to assist >> >people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". >> >> Oh crap, I wanted to stay out of this thread, but this is too much. >> >> William, are you also utterly opposed to Public Roads too? Those cost >> big bucks to build and maintain. >> >> Your position on "public car rental" (which I assume is an attempt at >> humour), reminds me of former Premier Mike Harris, who canceled three (I >> think the number was three) subways lines over a decade ago. With his >> limited experience in Northern Ontario, his insight was that people got >> into their cars to go places. That behaviour does not scale from rural >> to urban areas. If you add cars in an urban area, eventually the roads >> are gridlocked. If you add cars in a rural area, you run out of drivers, >> so there's no gridlock. > > Perhaps, it's rural vs urban, but it's about money too. ?For some > strange reason, public transit attracts wrong type of people, solution, > and policy. ?Public transit promotes increase in population density, > when public/national interest points to decrease in density. > > 100km is 1 hour drive, which is nothing. ?You can drive to London and > back with the time you typically spend in grid-locked GTA commute. > Solution to traffic jam is reduction in population density, not more > public transit. > Okay, so the solution is a massive Soviet-style relocation of the populace, not a few million for some streetcars. Amazing. Only the most selfish, ideologically-driven car fanatic could come up with that one. Yeah, William, we'll move out all the undesirables for you, so you can continue to drive your pwecious wittle car :-) Meanwhile, back in the real world... -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 12:56:26 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:56:26 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:34 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Thomas Milne > > | I am honestly mystified by the hatred of Miller in this city. No one > | can ever tell me _why_ they hate him, I just get this 'well he's > | really left wing'. > > Me too. ?(The garbage strike did look like a bad failure.) > > But then I didn't see anything that wrong with Dion. ?"Greenshift" was > mostly a good market-oriented approach. > > | ?Of > | course everything a right wing retard who barely made it through high > | school says is _much_ more trustworthy. > > Now that is over the top. > > Why would you call Ford a retard? ?I imagine that you have no evidence > for that. In my opinion, anyone who uses the phrase 'war on cars' is indeed a retard. Obviously I'm not using the word in the literal sense, but to describe someone who is so deliberately ignorant that they fall off the bottom of the scale of intelligence. If it seems unfair, Ford has more than asked for it by deliberately creating an atmosphere of mistrust and animosity toward public service in general, and using that as a cynical launchpad to the mayor's office. He is truly a disgusting human being. He is a liar and a bigot. For that there is _plenty_ of evidence. > | I just don't understand why people see investment and development as > | some kind of great evil. To me, Pantalone was the obvious choice. The > | only one who wasn't repeating this myth that lower taxes are the > | salvation of people everywhere. > > I have to say that I never got a feeling of vision from any candidate. > Maybe the visions could not fit through keyholes through which they > talk to me (TV news & newspapers). ?The one debate I watched (there > were a lot) was rhetoric, at best. Those debates are a joke. No one can present a 'vision' in the time they allow for speaking. People's attention spans have been so eroded that they are only able to digest slogans and buzzwords. Hence 'stop the gravy train' will always beat our 'lets build a subway!'. The fact that all people rely on is TV and newspapers to make their choice is a very sad indictment of our democracy in general. Absolutely nothing seen on TV should ever be used for such a serious purpose as choosing a representative. There needs to be a much more direct involvement for it to work. Unfortunately, most people don't have the time because they spend almost all of their time earning money to survive. > Ammend that. ?Ford's vision appeared to be so small to fit through the > keyhole. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 13:07:58 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:07:58 -0400 Subject: OT today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC787BF.4040206-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC787BF.4040206@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 10:00 PM, marthter wrote: > On 10-10-25 11:27 PM, William Park wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:31:30PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 03:05:26PM -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: >>>> >>>> I vehemently oppose Rob Ford because of his preposterous transit plan. >>>> Everything else on this campaign is fluff. >>> >>> Well anyone that thinks street cards should be replaced by busses >>> because leaving room for cars is a good thing is nuts. ?Your best bet >>> is to elliminate most cars from downtown. ?Other major cities around >>> the world have done it and boy does it make things better. >>> >>> If transit worked well, people would not want to drive into downtown. >>> So the solution is to fix transit, not make it better for cars (because >>> you can never make enough room for cars in downtown toronto to avoid >>> traffic problems, and the streetcars are not the problem). ?If you want >>> cars to have an easier time, elliminate pedestrians. ?They get in the >>> way of cars all the time. ?:) >> >> I live in Mississauga, and commute 100km per day. ?So, I may be biased, >> but I'm utterly opposed to Public Transit. ?If city wants to assist >> people with transportation, then city can run "public car rental". > > This more than just biased, this is the kind of selfish attitude that, in my > experience, is typical of most conservative politics and its supporters... > > "_I_ don't go to the library so cut library budget." > > "_I_ don't have school age kids so cut education funding." > > "_I_ don't go to the public swimming pools so there does not need to be a > parks and rec budget." > > "_I_ don't go to the museum, art gallery, theatre so there is no need for > cultural and arts funding." > > Having these things contributes to the well-being of the society as a whole, > whether you in particular use them or not. ?And, I'm sorry but if people who > are "utterly opposed to public transit" got their way, many of the people > pumping your gas and serving your drive-through coffee couldn't get to their > work so that YOU can commute to your work. > > I'd much rather live in a civilization than just in an economy. I like that. Well said. -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 13:43:31 2010 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:43:31 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC7B328.40902-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC7B328.40902@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4CC82C83.1050109@gmail.com> On 10/27/2010 1:05 AM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > The right choice was and continues to be a subway. That was the original > vision and hopefully, that will be implemented. It's amazing that Ford's > plan of completing the Sheppard subway and replacement of the > Scarborough LRT with a subway line is seen as "radical". That plan has > been in existence for more than 20 years but no one has had the > political will or vision to implement it. It remains to be seen how > successful Ford will be at it. It's insane that we're still arguing over > something that should have been completed 20 years ago. You mean the plan that Harris cancelled while Rob "everyman's" Ford's father sat on the back bench of the Harris government? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Ford_%28politician%29 Ford's promises are empty. Except the one where he's cancelling Transit city, just like his father helped cancel Network 2011. Miller pushed hard for subways, only to have all but his least ambitious transit plans crushed. The cost of subways requires provincial support. The province withdrew $4B in funding and Miller said that if we waited for provincial support on subways, we'll never get anywhere. Better to build what we can. Ford is naively stating that he can take the 4.7B earmarked for transit city, cancel the plan, and build subway lines instead. What do you think Bombardier is going to say when their streetcar order gets cancelled? It's profoundly stupid to change directions in the middle of a plan. This sets back Toronto transit another 20 years. Ford is lying. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 13:56:00 2010 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:56:00 -0400 Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: <20101027045739.GA4222-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> On 2010-10-27, at 12:57 AM, William Park wrote: > Solution to traffic jam is reduction in population density, not more > public transit. The most direct path to fewer traffic jams is less traffic (i.e. fewer cars). Anything that serves as a deterrent to in-Toronto driving is a good thing from at least economic, environmental, health, and safety points of view. Or, as someone once said, "Make all the North/South streets one-way North...pretty soon it's Richmond Hill's problem." :-)-- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 14:03:15 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:03:15 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC7B328.40902-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC7B328.40902@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4CC83123.2050606@rogers.com> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > though not in the way he or the NIMBY groups who opposed the bridge > thought it would be. I find it a bit much that those who moved into the area, long after the airport was built (1938), feel they have a right to complain about it. I live under a flight path into Pearson. As I moved here, knowing full well the airport was there, I do not complain, nor do I have the right to. It'd be different if the island airport had been built after those people moved in. The same thing happened several years ago, when people moved in next to the stockyards. As for the waterfront, why is that area crammed with condos, when it was supposed to be open to the people? Where do I go to complain about all those unsightly condos blocking access to the lake? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 14:03:22 2010 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:03:22 -0400 Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Phillip Mills wrote: > On 2010-10-27, at 12:57 AM, William Park wrote: > >> Solution to traffic jam is reduction in population density, not more >> public transit. > > The most direct path to fewer traffic jams is less traffic (i.e. fewer cars). ?Anything that serves as a deterrent to in-Toronto driving is a good thing from at least economic, environmental, health, and safety points of view. > > Or, as someone once said, "Make all the North/South streets one-way North...pretty soon it's Richmond Hill's problem." ?:-) lol -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 14:10:58 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:10:58 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC82C83.1050109-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC7B328.40902@dinamis.com> <4CC82C83.1050109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CC832F2.5080302@rogers.com> Mike Kallies wrote: > It's profoundly stupid to change directions in the middle of a plan. > This sets back Toronto transit another 20 years. > > Ford is lying. > That's long been the Toronto way. Look at what happened to the underground streetcars that were supposed to be on Queen St. Or the Eglinton subway that was started and then abandoned, or the truncated Sheppard subway. Then we get to the Spadina and Scarborough expressways that are sorely needed now. Toronto needs good mix of transportation systems, including roads. Unfortunatlely the long term plans have been repeatedly sabotaged by short sighted politicians and special interest groups. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 14:12:56 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:12:56 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52-HInyCGIudOg@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> Message-ID: <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> Phillip Mills wrote: > The most direct path to fewer traffic jams is less traffic (i.e. fewer cars). Anything that serves as a deterrent to in-Toronto driving is a good thing from at least economic, environmental, health, and safety points of view. > The problem is no matter how much public transit there is, there will still be a need for roads. For many, public transit is simply not an option. Regardless, Toronto's public transit would be much better, if so many plans hadn't been killed over the years. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 14:25:07 2010 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:25:07 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CC83368.8050601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3DC6A579-20C5-421E-8EC3-42607C8290D4@acm.org> On 2010-10-27, at 10:12 AM, James Knott wrote: > For many, public transit is simply not an option. No disagreement there...and if those were the *only* people driving private, non-commercial vehicles in the city I suspect there wouldn't be much of a problem. (Though I do know some people who would say "not an option" when what they really mean is "I don't like it".)-- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 14:56:52 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CC83368.8050601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | The problem is no matter how much public transit there is, there will still be | a need for roads. For many, public transit is simply not an option. Not really. Sure roads are necessary but we already have them. The question is: how much road capacity do we need. Since using the roads is kind of free (if you already have a car and ignore the cost of gas), the limitation that kicks in is capacity. If we priced the use of roads and users were rational, we could reduce traffic to the extent that it would not cause slowdowns. I'm *not* saying that that is the right choice, just that it is possible. | Regardless, Toronto's public transit would be much better, if so many plans | hadn't been killed over the years. I think so. But an unimplemented plan hasn't been tested: some could have turned out to be bad. Some of the weaknesses of getting to a good subway system: - deserves careful design, rather than politically motivated approaches (It isn't at all clear to me that the route to York has been justified on the basis of traffic, current or projected. I have suspicions of how it got done.) - is awesomely expensive (a billion dollars for a mile or two?). I think it creates value (eg. real estate value) but the government hasn't been able to figure out how to capture enough of this to finance the building. So folks on a subway (like me!) are being subsidized by folks elsewhere (like Cornerbrook or Kamloops). - it has a tremendous lead-time. You cannot solve current problems by building a subway. You don't actually know the needs by the time the system is delivered. With luck, the promise of a subway can cause the appropriate adjustment of development in the area served (e.g. perhaps in Vaughan with the new extension). - subways are not flexible. Bus routes are much easier to add or change (assuming you can grab existing road capacity). - our current system doesn't scale. Some "express" system is needed if it is to service a larger area. Even in the current system this shows: downtown subway stops are very comfortably spaced for pedestrians but that's not true at the north end: the stops are one concession apart (except for the North York City Centre add-on). (The 1.25mi concession grid structure of much of Ontario dates back to Governor Simcoe!) - the current system feels shabby and the seats are too narrow for many. During rush hour, the trains are uncomfortably crowded. The result is that many middle-class people feel that the subway isn't for them. - cars are mass produced. Transit equipment seems to be custom made and hence a lot more expensive. See, for example, what the auditor general said about the Canadian helicopter purchases: prices went up (roughly) a factor of two for what appear to be minor upgrades. - during an individual trip, the cost in time and convenience of switching between a bus and a subway is way too high. As a contrast, I find switching between the Spadina streetcar and the subway to have much less overhead. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 15:18:55 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:18:55 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CC842DF.1090203@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Transit equipment seems to be custom made > and hence a lot more expensive. You can thank the various local/provincial/state governments for that one. Years ago, GM pretty much owned the local transit bus market and produced an excellent product. Then the governments seemed to think they could do better, provide local jobs etc., which resulted in a fragmented bus industry, in which few do well. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 15:40:21 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:40:21 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC7B328.40902-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC7B328.40902@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20101027154021.GH12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:05:44AM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > This was a success, though not in the way he or the NIMBY groups who > opposed the bridge thought it would be. Porter Air built up a > first-class airline on the island despite what a columnist characterized > as "the world's most pointless ferry ride". We now have a viable option > for short-hop flights to various destinations that we didn't have > before. That's a good thing and we have David Miller to thank for it. And you don't think Porter would have done well if there was a bridge? Your argument makes no sense. > Having a "light rail" line that bisects streets destroys neighbourhoods. > Spadina is now essentially a highway with a rail line through the middle > with lots of ugly overhead wiring. Merchants along St. Clair Ave. W. > fought hard against the same thing in their neighbourhood but lost. > Arguably, you couldn't make Sheppard Ave. much uglier than it already is > by doing the same but light rail lines do have their drawbacks, not that > busses are a wonderful substitute. Look at the Scarborough LRT. It has > to be replaced because politicians of the day made the expedient rather > than the right choice. It has never worked reliably and now, they > apparently can't get replacement cars. The right choice was and > continues to be a subway. That was the original vision and hopefully, > that will be implemented. It's amazing that Ford's plan of completing > the Sheppard subway and replacement of the Scarborough LRT with a subway > line is seen as "radical". That plan has been in existence for more than > 20 years but no one has had the political will or vision to implement > it. It remains to be seen how successful Ford will be at it. It's insane > that we're still arguing over something that should have been completed > 20 years ago. And if the car guys had their way spadina would have been an expressway 30 years ago. Now that would almost certainly have destroyed the neighbourhood. If they really wanted replacement cars I am sure someone would build them, but they might not be cheap because they wouldn't be reusing an existing design. The fact toronto's subway is completely nonstandard makes them more expensive than they had to be. > Read if you want to > have a good laugh over the grandiose plans of 1985 for "Network 2011". > None of it ever got implemented. You can bet expensive consultants were > paid handsomely for all sorts of reports, models, etc. but it amounted > to nothing. > > We have 248 streetcars, most of which are apparently near the end of > their service life as per WikiPedia > . "Unique track > gauge" alone sounds like it's just a recipe for overpaying. The best > analogy I can think of is PCs vs. proprietary mini-computers and we know > how that one turned out. The only part of Toronto's system that uses a standard track gauge is the LRT. The subway and streetcars use the same gauge and nothing else in the world uses it. > Having said that, I doubt Ford will be able to convince Council to get > rid of streetcars so those who like streetcars don't have to worry about > this issue, at least not until there is a viable replacement, which > isn't going to happen anytime soon. I sure hope so. > By the way, reading in the second WikiPedia article about the Queen and > Eglinton subway lines that were started but never got completed is sad. > Imagine how differently the city would have evolved had there been two > more east/west lines. Well the queen subway was a streetcar based subway. Could have been nice given how awful service is on the queenline through downtown. > More people vote directly for the Mayor of Toronto than for any other > politician in Canada, including our Premier and Prime Minister, both of > whom are elected directly only by their respective parties and then by > constituents in their respective ridings. Given that, Ford seems to have > done rather well for "a right wing retard", which goes to show that > success, or lack of thereof, in high school has little correlation to > success later in life, assuming that he really did struggle to get > through high school. > > I recall a Princeton grad, no less, who authorized "wise guy" political > ads during this mayoral campaign. It just goes to show that formal > education and common sense aren't necessarily correlated either. (What > in the world was he thinking anyway? What a stain on an otherwise > reasonable campaign.) > > To you and 95,481 other people, apparently. Unfortunately for Pantalone, > 289,832 people thought that Smitherman was a better choice, and 383,501 > people, almost one in two of those who voted, thought that Ford was the > best choice. Every one of the 37 other candidates managed to garner some > votes, including Gerald Derome, who came in last with 251 votes. Watch > that guy - he has nowhere to go but up. :) Well I hope Ford manages to clean up city hall and get things to be more efficient. Unfortunately streetcars are more efficient than busses and subways are stupidly expensive to build, so he doesn't seem to be in complete agreement with himself on that. > Toronto has the highest level of business taxes in the GTA. That causes > many businesses to move to Mississauga, Vaughan, or Markham, which all > have substantially lower business taxes but higher residential property > taxes. That contributes to urban sprawl, smog, reduced viability of > public transit (you need higher densities for mass transit), and > gridlock, all things that no matter whom you voted for, you would > probably agree are undesirable things. Cutting business taxes would be a > good start to making Toronto more competitive in the region. I don't > want Toronto to be a bedroom community for the outlying regions. I want > people to be able to live close to where they work and vice versa. Only > then can we put a dent into the serious problems that we have with the > unsustainable sprawl, traffic, and concomitant environmental impact. I am not sure there is room in Toronto for a lot of new businesses. I also didn't know my property taxes in Markham were high, but I don't know what people pay in Toronto. As for Toronto being a bedroom community, don't worry. It is much too expensive to live in for that to happen. Adding more business to Toronto will do the reverse in fact and make traffic worse as all those people out in mississauga and markham and such are commuting to jobs in Toronto. > In 2006, the city allegedly overpaid by $100 million for new subway cars > due to single-source contracts. That isn't exactly pocket change and > that is just one of many things that Council spent money on. Who knows > how they spent the other few billion? We already know that some > councillors spent their office budgets stupidly while some councillors > were promoting stupidities like $3.5 million flag poles. If the > allegations of overpaying $100 million on the subway cars are true, and > we'll never know because it already happened, that was $100 million that > couldn't have been spent on something else, or $100 million too much > that they took from taxpayers, who in turn couldn't have spent it on > something else themselves. There is always an opportunity cost for such > decisions, no matter how noble the motives may be. I've read irrelevant > arguments of how buying from Bombardier, we were supporting a major > employer in Thunder Bay. It isn't the job of the TTC or Toronto City > Council to engage in economic development efforts beyond its borders. Oh having the city councel cleaned up would be great. I recall the computer contract scandel and there have been others. Clearly the city hasn't been run well in many cases. Now can anyone prove that they did in fact overpay? How much did other places want to charge for subway cars for toronto's custom tracks? A lot of places don't even want to touch toronto's system because it doesn't really fit in their factories. Bombardier knows the toronto system and has made trains for it before. They know when they are getting into. Often you end up going with a low bid and then end up with cost overruns or things that don't work because they didn't really know what they were getting into. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 15:40:28 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:40:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101025200053.GU12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101025200053.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > In fact catering to drivers reminds me of playing simcity. There was > always complaints about "We want more roads for our cars" and no matter > how many expensive to maintain roads you made, there was always too > much traffic and polution and they still wanted more roads. The only > way to do well in simcity was to ignore the vocal minority that wanted > to drive their cars and make a good public transit system instead. Hmm.. When I play Simcity[1] I always put in a good public transport system but I've never played with a deliberate bias away from cars (despite my real-world views on this). I'm going to try that :) [1] Simcity classic was released open source a few years ago as Micropolis and is available on Linux. This is the version I continue to play. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 15:45:46 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:45:46 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC832F2.5080302-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC7B328.40902@dinamis.com> <4CC82C83.1050109@gmail.com> <4CC832F2.5080302@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101027154546.GI12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 10:10:58AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > That's long been the Toronto way. Look at what happened to the > underground streetcars that were supposed to be on Queen St. Or the > Eglinton subway that was started and then abandoned, or the truncated > Sheppard subway. Then we get to the Spadina and Scarborough expressways > that are sorely needed now. Toronto needs good mix of transportation > systems, including roads. Unfortunatlely the long term plans have been > repeatedly sabotaged by short sighted politicians and special interest > groups. The expressways were canceled because the city listened to the public (well the public with lots of money living in areas where the expressway would be built). All we have now is allen road, and black creek drive and a bit of eglington near the 427 and I guess a bit of king road out east by the 401. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 15:51:07 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:51:07 -0400 Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: <20101027045739.GA4222-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20101027155107.GJ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:57:39AM -0400, William Park wrote: > Perhaps, it's rural vs urban, but it's about money too. For some > strange reason, public transit attracts wrong type of people, solution, > and policy. Public transit promotes increase in population density, > when public/national interest points to decrease in density. > > 100km is 1 hour drive, which is nothing. You can drive to London and > back with the time you typically spend in grid-locked GTA commute. > Solution to traffic jam is reduction in population density, not more > public transit. A 100km 1 hour drive is nothing for a weekend trip once in a while. As a commute you would have to be insane to consider that reasonable. We have enough air polution as it is and we don't need to use up all the oil that quickly either. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 15:53:11 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:53:11 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CC83368.8050601-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 10:12:56AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > The problem is no matter how much public transit there is, there will > still be a need for roads. For many, public transit is simply not an > option. Regardless, Toronto's public transit would be much better, if > so many plans hadn't been killed over the years. Why is public transit not an option? If it worked well it would be an option. So the solution is to make it work, not to cater to those people that insist on driving. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 16:00:57 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:00:57 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101027160057.GL12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 10:56:52AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: James Knott > > | The problem is no matter how much public transit there is, there will still be > | a need for roads. For many, public transit is simply not an option. > > Not really. Sure roads are necessary but we already have them. > > The question is: how much road capacity do we need. > > Since using the roads is kind of free (if you already have a car and > ignore the cost of gas), the limitation that kicks in is capacity. > > If we priced the use of roads and users were rational, we could reduce > traffic to the extent that it would not cause slowdowns. I'm *not* > saying that that is the right choice, just that it is possible. I am not sure road tolls in London has helped traffic very much. I am sure the city makes good money on it though. Hopefully some of that money is being used to improve transit. > | Regardless, Toronto's public transit would be much better, if so many plans > | hadn't been killed over the years. > > I think so. But an unimplemented plan hasn't been tested: some could > have turned out to be bad. > > Some of the weaknesses of getting to a good subway system: > > - deserves careful design, rather than politically motivated approaches > (It isn't at all clear to me that the route to York has been > justified on the basis of traffic, current or projected. I have > suspicions of how it got done.) York university has a lot of students. A stupid amount of them commute by car because transit in the area is so awful. > - is awesomely expensive (a billion dollars for a mile or two?). I > think it creates value (eg. real estate value) but the government > hasn't been able to figure out how to capture enough of this to > finance the building. So folks on a subway (like me!) are being > subsidized by folks elsewhere (like Cornerbrook or Kamloops). Yes it is. And Ford thinks building more subways in places where light rail is an option is a good idea? Save subways for places where it is the only option. > - it has a tremendous lead-time. You cannot solve current problems by > building a subway. You don't actually know the needs by the time > the system is delivered. With luck, the promise of a subway can > cause the appropriate adjustment of development in the area served > (e.g. perhaps in Vaughan with the new extension). All the subway extensions they are planning to build should be in use already. They are years behind in building a proper transit system in the GTA. Why does it need to take so many years to build? I thought we had lots of unemployed people looking for work. Let them help. > - subways are not flexible. Bus routes are much easier to add or > change (assuming you can grab existing road capacity). Busses are also affected by cars in many cases unfortunately, which makes them very unreliable for commuting. Now if you have dedicated roads for them as some places do (and the dedicated power line corridor up to york university is a great idea. They should make more of those), then you can do well and busses can be very cheap, although I do wonder if paved roads cost more or less than train tracks. > - our current system doesn't scale. Some "express" system is needed > if it is to service a larger area. > > Even in the current system this shows: downtown subway stops are > very comfortably spaced for pedestrians but that's not true at the > north end: the stops are one concession apart (except for the North > York City Centre add-on). > > (The 1.25mi concession grid structure of much of Ontario dates back > to Governor Simcoe!) > > - the current system feels shabby and the seats are too narrow for many. > During rush hour, the trains are uncomfortably crowded. > The result is that many middle-class people feel that the subway > isn't for them. > > - cars are mass produced. Transit equipment seems to be custom made > and hence a lot more expensive. See, for example, what the auditor > general said about the Canadian helicopter purchases: prices went up > (roughly) a factor of two for what appear to be minor upgrades. > > - during an individual trip, the cost in time and convenience of switching > between a bus and a subway is way too high. As a contrast, I find > switching between the Spadina streetcar and the subway to have much less > overhead. Certainly. Actually at some of the newer stations bus to subway and vice versa is quite good. Don Mills station (much as it appears highly under used) is very nice for changing to and from busses. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 16:01:40 2010 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:01:40 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <20101027155311.GK12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> On 10-10-27 11:53 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 10:12:56AM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> The problem is no matter how much public transit there is, there will >> still be a need for roads. For many, public transit is simply not an >> option. Regardless, Toronto's public transit would be much better, if >> so many plans hadn't been killed over the years. > > Why is public transit not an option? If it worked well it would be > an option. So the solution is to make it work, not to cater to those > people that insist on driving. For "many". My commute, when I do it, is from south Etobicoke to central Markham, and that's a two-hour trip by public transit. It can be a two-hour trip by road too, but it's more commonly 30..40 minutes. That said, the City of London (i.e. financial district) was handling 1 million commuters every weekday around the year 1920 (source: a speaker on TVO). The 401/427/QEW routes are choking up now at about half that load. There's clearly room to do better. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 16:06:31 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:06:31 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CC842DF.1090203-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <4CC842DF.1090203@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101027160631.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:18:55AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > You can thank the various local/provincial/state governments for that > one. Years ago, GM pretty much owned the local transit bus market and > produced an excellent product. Then the governments seemed to think > they could do better, provide local jobs etc., which resulted in a > fragmented bus industry, in which few do well. Well I have a hard time believing GM made an excellent product, but I guess at some point in time (long ago) they probably did. Of course given how they have done since they would probably have been making the same model still if no one had been competing with them. Now certainly the Orion and New Flyer busses don't exactly seem great (not sure who else around here makes busses now), although they do seem to have gotten better lately. York Region of course bought busses from Europe (Belgium I believe) when they wanted express route busses (The very nice VIVA system). Perhaps the local companies could look at them and learn something about designing a modern city bus. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 16:45:59 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:45:59 -0400 Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101025200053.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > Hmm.. When I play Simcity[1] I always put in a good public transport system > ?but I've never played with a deliberate bias away from cars (despite my > real-world views on this). ?I'm going to try that :) Which may be somewhat interesting, but with the caveat that it will indicate whatever model the authors encoded into Simcity, as opposed to forcibly being a reflection of reality. I must say that the debate on transit that has taken place *AFTER* the election has been lively and worthy of thought. And it's the sort of debate that should have taken BEFORE the election :-(. I think I've seen *some* clueless comment, but there are conflicting issues that have been mentioned where it's not obvious that there's anything that is safe to be dismissed. It seems to me that: - Extending the subway system is a hideously expensive answer. It's quite possibly worthwhile, but it requires committing to a decade worth of billions in spending per year to do it. If Toronto can't afford to pay for it, it seems hardly just to expect people in Kamloops or Timmins to pay for it. That points at it seeming reasonable that provincial and federal governments are reluctant to throw money at this sort of thing. In any case, Ford's "on crack" if he imagines he can "cut costs" and do this at the same time. - Above-ground trains are disruptive of all kinds of nearby traffic, so, while they appear cheaper than going underground, they're not a great answer. And there are some clearly disputable issues surrounding this. It's well deserving of more debate. - It's quite clear that we're observing two positions, which have appeared not-infrequently in GTALUG debate surrounding locations of things (and which means that this really does connect legitimately to the "proper business of GTALUG")... --> There are carless people that connect thru the core that perceive the world as if roads and cars are a plague, and that any place that isn't within easy walking distance of a subway station isn't a "legitimate" part of Toronto. (If I engage in a little hyperbole here, I hope I can be forgiven. I have *heard* statements this adamant!) --> To people that reside in more suburban parts of the GTA, it's an annoyance to need to interface with the traffic constrictions, expensive parking, and such that result from interfacing with parts of Toronto that are too close to the "dense subway bits." Ford might call cyclists "a plague," which goes too far. But I think there are decent arguments to be made that removing car lanes in favour of bike lanes isn't likely to be too useful. Those that consider Ford "a plague" should keep in mind that he's, in effect, a natural consequence of the amalgamation of various cities into Toronto. Those voters in Scarborough, North York, and Etobicoke have peskily different interests than those in Old Toronto. It looks a lot like Toronto politics have been focused on O.T., and the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction. There's plenty bad about that - but it shouldn't be so much of a surprise. And if Etobicokians are getting their way, that's NOT an inherently broken thing. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 16:53:44 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:53:44 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <20101027155311.GK12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC85918.1030102@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 10:12:56AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > >> The problem is no matter how much public transit there is, there will >> still be a need for roads. For many, public transit is simply not an >> option. Regardless, Toronto's public transit would be much better, if >> so many plans hadn't been killed over the years. >> > Why is public transit not an option? If it worked well it would be > an option. So the solution is to make it work, not to cater to those > people that insist on driving. > > I normally used transit when I worked in downtown Toronto. However, for a few years, I worked in Markham and lived in Mississauga. There was no way to get to & from work, via transit, in a reasonable time. Also, in some of my work, I've had to travel to customer sites, carrying computer, tools and several boxes of equipment. I've driven as far as Windsor, Sudbury and Kingston (also flown to Halifax, Vancouver and points in between) to do that work. Try doing all that on public transit. Some people have health issues that prevent them using transit. Also many work schedules that cannot be accomodated by transit. I experienced that myself, years ago, when I had to drive into work on Sundays. Back then, it was impossible for me to take transit, other than taxi, to get to work on Sunday morning. There simply were not any buses/streetcars/Go Trains etc. that I could take for that trip and make it to work on time. Incidentally, around that time (mid '80s), a Mississauga councillor was saying we didn't need transit on Sunday. When I called him to tell him that some people needed it to get to work, he told me I should be going to church on Sundays! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:05:24 2010 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:05:24 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <20101027160631.GM12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <4CC842DF.1090203@rogers.com> <20101027160631.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4aa6aa6d4e15babe14e459a877919f9d.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Well I have a hard time believing GM made an excellent product, but I > guess at some point in time (long ago) they probably did. Of course > given how they have done since they would probably have been making the > same model still if no one had been competing with them. > GM were instrumental in getting streetcars replaced with busses in many American cities. It's interesting to speculate why that didn't happen entirely in Toronto: farsightedness or inertia? The Great American Streetcar Scandal http://environment.about.com/od/fossilfuels/a/streetcars.htm -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:12:02 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CC84CE4.90901-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> Message-ID: | From: Mel Wilson | For "many". My commute, when I do it, is from south Etobicoke to central | Markham, and that's a two-hour trip by public transit. It can be a two-hour | trip by road too, but it's more commonly 30..40 minutes. The subway system is a very imperfect hub-and-spoke system. If you are traveling between two spokes, your transit time naturally doubles. Two hours is better than I would have feared. When the subway was built, many families had only one person who worked out of the house. So there was a better chance that a home could be picked to reduce commute time. And the city was a lot smaller: suburbs as we know them go going about the same time as the first subway line opened. | That said, the City of London (i.e. financial district) was handling 1 million | commuters every weekday around the year 1920 (source: a speaker on TVO). The | 401/427/QEW routes are choking up now at about half that load. There's | clearly room to do better. Interesting. Most people sure didn't drive to the City then. I think that they took a combination of the underground, buses, and trains. The London Transit system is quite complicated (so is the road system!). Interestingly, I find that the stops are a bit far apart. But it covers what I think of as London in a 2D fashion rather than our 2.5 * 1D subway system. [I originally wrote 2d and 1d but I didn't want you to think I was talking about the fare. London omnibus fare system in 1921 was 1d (i.e. one penny) per mile according to .] Scaling transit is a tricky thing. There seem to be phase changes in the process. What works for one scale of city may not work for another: Kitchener, Ottawa, Toronto, New York. History has a large effect too -- London's history is so different from Toronto's that lessons may not be very applicable. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:18:05 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:18:05 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CC85918.1030102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC85918.1030102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101027171805.GN12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:53:44PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > I normally used transit when I worked in downtown Toronto. However, for > a few years, I worked in Markham and lived in Mississauga. There was no > way to get to & from work, via transit, in a reasonable time. Also, in > some of my work, I've had to travel to customer sites, carrying > computer, tools and several boxes of equipment. I've driven as far as > Windsor, Sudbury and Kingston (also flown to Halifax, Vancouver and > points in between) to do that work. Try doing all that on public > transit. If you are doing service, and carrying around tools, then it makes sense you have to drive. But most people don't. Most are going to an office or some service job or retail. They aren't carrying anything that couldn't be in a small bag. > Some people have health issues that prevent them using transit. Not very many of them. > Also many work schedules that cannot be accomodated by transit. I > experienced that myself, years ago, when I had to drive into work on > Sundays. Back then, it was impossible for me to take transit, other > than taxi, to get to work on Sunday morning. There simply were not any > buses/streetcars/Go Trains etc. that I could take for that trip and make > it to work on time. Incidentally, around that time (mid '80s), a > Mississauga councillor was saying we didn't need transit on Sunday. > When I called him to tell him that some people needed it to get to work, > he told me I should be going to church on Sundays! Well that's just nuts. Toronto's subway start time on sundays is pretty dumb too. I have heard Hazel say that mississauga completely messed up transit in the past. They are trying to fix it now. I would think it would be great if I could take transit to work. Unfortunately with the current service I would have to first take a bus 5km north on don mills, which runs every 30 minutes, then take the viva along highway 7 to york university (or promenade if I change to the 77 instead), and then the viva orange from york university back up to highway 7 to jane, and then either walk the last 1km north or wait for another bus that runs who knows when to get up jane to langstaff. It takes about 2 hours each way. It's 20km. I can drive there in 20 minutes. If they made those right of ways on highway 7 that they have talked about, the viva would go accross a lot faster, and if it didn't have to go down to york university and instead kept going on highway 7 I would probably save 1 hour already. That york subway extension up to highway 7 past the university would mean no reason for the viva busses to go down to york university (going down keele from 7 to steeles takes forever during rush hour). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:19:42 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:19:42 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4aa6aa6d4e15babe14e459a877919f9d.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <4CC842DF.1090203@rogers.com> <20101027160631.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4aa6aa6d4e15babe14e459a877919f9d.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On 27 October 2010 13:05, wrote: > > > Well I have a hard time believing GM made an excellent product, but I > > guess at some point in time (long ago) they probably did. Of course > > given how they have done since they would probably have been making the > > same model still if no one had been competing with them. > > > > GM were instrumental in getting streetcars replaced with busses in many > American cities. It's interesting to speculate why that didn't happen > entirely in Toronto: farsightedness or inertia? > Neither. In Canada GM's lobbying has to compete with that of Bombardier, a prominent maker of subway and LRT cars which has received plenty of government assistance (most notably in its global commuter-plane competition with Brazil's Embraer). And before Bombardier there was Hawker Siddley, (Remember the recent mini-controversy about Toronto's replacement subway cars? One bidder claimed they could do them a little cheaper if built offshore, but the contract went to Bombardier and single-handedly breathed new life into its Thunder Bay factory. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:21:12 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:21:12 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <20101027172112.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:12:02PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The subway system is a very imperfect hub-and-spoke system. If you > are traveling between two spokes, your transit time naturally > doubles. Two hours is better than I would have feared. > > When the subway was built, many families had only one person who > worked out of the house. So there was a better chance that a home > could be picked to reduce commute time. And the city was a lot > smaller: suburbs as we know them go going about the same time as the > first subway line opened. Unfortunately both the subway and go trains are run with the assumption that people are going to work in downtown toronto and live in the suburbs. That isn't true anymore, but the system still assumes it. many of the train lines still only bring people in to toronto in the morning and out in the evening (and the trains run back empty bypassing all the stations on the way back). > Interesting. > > Most people sure didn't drive to the City then. > I think that they took a combination of the underground, buses, and trains. > > The London Transit system is quite complicated (so is the road > system!). Interestingly, I find that the stops are a bit far apart. > But it covers what I think of as London in a 2D fashion rather than > our 2.5 * 1D subway system. > > [I originally wrote 2d and 1d but I didn't want you to think I was > talking about the fare. London omnibus fare system in 1921 was 1d > (i.e. one penny) per mile according to > .] > > Scaling transit is a tricky thing. There seem to be phase changes in > the process. What works for one scale of city may not work for > another: Kitchener, Ottawa, Toronto, New York. History has a large > effect too -- London's history is so different from Toronto's that > lessons may not be very applicable. Montreal certainly has a far better subway layout than toronto. I think their train service is actually better too, but I am not entirely sure about that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:34:37 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4aa6aa6d4e15babe14e459a877919f9d.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <4CC842DF.1090203@rogers.com> <20101027160631.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4aa6aa6d4e15babe14e459a877919f9d.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: | From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org | GM were instrumental in getting streetcars replaced with busses in many | American cities. It's interesting to speculate why that didn't happen | entirely in Toronto: farsightedness or inertia? We lost the Radial Line about that time. My understanding is that it was unable to pay for itself. But then little public transit does. Two of its stops are within walking distance of where I am. The Glen Echo Loop (which I used before the subway extended this far and before I lived here) was replaced by a car dealer and then our Loblaws. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:36:37 2010 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:36:37 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <4CC842DF.1090203@rogers.com> <20101027160631.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4aa6aa6d4e15babe14e459a877919f9d.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <191a1e89b81344802d70a52e9908a034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > Neither. In Canada GM's lobbying has to compete with that of Bombardier, a > prominent maker of subway and LRT cars which has received plenty of > government assistance (most notably in its global commuter-plane > competition > with Brazil's Embraer). And before Bombardier there was Hawker Siddley, > > (Remember the recent mini-controversy about Toronto's replacement subway > cars? One bidder claimed they could do them a little cheaper if built > offshore, but the contract went to Bombardier and single-handedly breathed > new life into its Thunder Bay factory. > > - Evan > I think we're talking about two different periods of history. I'm referring to something much earlier. ========================================= Indeed, in the 1920s automaker General Motors (GM) began a covert campaign to undermine the popular rail-based public transit systems that were ubiquitous in and around the country?s bustling urban areas. At the time, only one in 10 Americans owned cars and most people traveled by trolley and streetcar. Within three decades, GM, with help from Standard Oil, Firestone Tire, Mack Truck and Phillips Petroleum, succeeded in decimating the nation?s trolley systems, while seeing to the creation of the federal highway system and the ensuing dominance of the automobile as America?s preferred mode of transport. ========================================== -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:41:24 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:41:24 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> Message-ID: Toronto has always had bits of brilliant transit planning squished between large mounds of mediocrity. Brilliance: Building capacity for trains under the Bloor Viaduct ages before the trains were designed. Mediocrity: Putting the northwest line in the ditch made by the Spadina Expressway cock-up. Brilliance: maintaining streetcars in the face of political pressure and a continental shift away from them Mediocrity: The Scarborough LRT Brilliance: GO Transit, easily one of the best suburban commuter rail systems on the continent Mediocrity: Inter-system squabbling prevents logical and deeper integration of regional and local transit. Too much of Toronto's transit grid is designed to go through Union Station. This mentality has prevented consideration of valuable *existing* resources (such as the east-west train lines parallel to Dupont and Steeles that could serve transit well but are untouched by GO.) The downtown-centric mentality that encourages this "vision" will hopefully be shaken away by finally being forced to listen to the suburban voices. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:49:58 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:49:58 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <191a1e89b81344802d70a52e9908a034.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <4CC842DF.1090203@rogers.com> <20101027160631.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4aa6aa6d4e15babe14e459a877919f9d.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <191a1e89b81344802d70a52e9908a034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: On 27 October 2010 13:36, wrote: > > I think we're talking about two different periods of history. I'm > referring to something much earlier. > ========================================= > Indeed, in the 1920s automaker General Motors (GM) began a covert campaign > to undermine the popular rail-based public transit systems that were > ubiquitous in and around the country?s bustling urban areas. At the time, > only one in 10 Americans owned cars and most people traveled by trolley > and streetcar. > I guess we can be happy that GM & friends concentrated more on the domestic market. Given that this was pre-auto-pact and pre-tar-sands, Canada was not exactly home to quite as massive a domestic car and oil industry to grow. Also consider that the pro-car attitude was always more prominent in the US, -- compare the US Interstate Highway initiative with the Trans-Canada Highway. Indeed, perhaps the decentralization in Canada -- in which transportation is primarily a provincial issue -- was another factor in making life more difficult for would-be lobbyists. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 17:51:35 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:51:35 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <20101027175135.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:41:24PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Toronto has always had bits of brilliant transit planning squished between > large mounds of mediocrity. > > Brilliance: Building capacity for trains under the Bloor Viaduct ages before > the trains were designed. That one was absolutely briliant. > Mediocrity: Putting the northwest line in the ditch made by the Spadina > Expressway cock-up. I thought they always meant to have a subway/rail in the middle of the expressway. I consider that to have been a smart plan given they were tearing up the area anyhow. > Brilliance: maintaining streetcars in the face of political pressure and a > continental shift away from them Well some of them. Of course one way streets have broken some of the existing streetcar lines they used to have. > Mediocrity: The Scarborough LRT > > Brilliance: GO Transit, easily one of the best suburban commuter rail > systems on the continent It is absolutely awful. The line up through weston may become great now that they are resignaling it (after buying it instead of leasing access to the line), so that they can run trains more than every 30 minutes. Now if they will run more frequent service and both ways throughout the day, then it can start to be considered a good train system. As it is it is probably the worst train system I have ever seen. If you lived downtown and worked in markham, you can't take the train to work, because they only service the other direction. THe lakeshore lines have service both ways throughout the day, but the other lines do not. So if you think Go is one of the best on the continent, then clearly the continenent has no good commuter train service. > Mediocrity: Inter-system squabbling prevents logical and deeper integration > of regional and local transit. That is bad. A few bits are slowly improving. Some viva lines are now allowed to operate full service in TTC area and accept TTC fare for that (the viva orange between downsview and york university for example is now considered TTC service so you can take the subway and then get on the viva express bus up to the university using your metropass or the fare you already paid for the subway). > Too much of Toronto's transit grid is designed to go through Union Station. > This mentality has prevented consideration of valuable *existing* resources > (such as the east-west train lines parallel to Dupont and Steeles that could > serve transit well but are untouched by GO.) The downtown-centric mentality > that encourages this "vision" will hopefully be shaken away by finally being > forced to listen to the suburban voices. That is the biggest problem they have. Who cares about union station anymore, there is plenty of other parts of toronto people work in. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 18:16:05 2010 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:16:05 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <191a1e89b81344802d70a52e9908a034.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <4CC842DF.1090203@rogers.com> <20101027160631.GM12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4aa6aa6d4e15babe14e459a877919f9d.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <191a1e89b81344802d70a52e9908a034.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <4CC86C65.6010201@the-wire.com> On 10-10-27 01:36 PM, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > I think we're talking about two different periods of history. I'm > referring to something much earlier. > ========================================= > Indeed, in the 1920s automaker General Motors (GM) began a covert campaign > to undermine the popular rail-based public transit systems that were > ubiquitous in and around the country?s bustling urban areas. At the time, > only one in 10 Americans owned cars and most people traveled by trolley > and streetcar. > > Within three decades, GM, with help from Standard Oil, Firestone Tire, > Mack Truck and Phillips Petroleum, succeeded in decimating the nation?s > trolley systems, while seeing to the creation of the federal highway > system and the ensuing dominance of the automobile as America?s preferred > mode of transport. > ========================================== I see from the internets that Hawker Siddley bought Canadian Car & Foundry which was producing streetcars in Montreal around 1921 for many Canadian markets, including Toronto. What their lobbying power might have been, I can't find. In the 1920s these would have been the large and small Peter Witt cars. The Preston Car Company and Ottawa Car Company were also building them. CC&F had been building buses in Fort William, until Hawker Sidley transferred rail production there, so Bombardier's streetcars from Thunder Bay have a long history. There's a good book, _Internal Combustion_ by Edwin Black, detailing the development of the modern automobile. Late on it covers the GM/Firestone/Standard Oil takeover. It starts with the Ford/Edison electric automobiles, industrial shenanigans, and a patent troll. Fun. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 18:54:58 2010 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <519302.66305.qm@web113413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Public transit is not "few millions", but rather "billions". If you put all those money into affordable housing, then traffic pattern will adjust accordingly. I must admit, this is more of provincial or federal area, not the municipal one from which this thread started. You need to get out more. I drove 60,000km in my 1986 VW Jetta, literally around North America (and Baja California) along the 4 Ocean coastlines. I just couldn't help marvel at American Interstate system. It makes affordable housing possible, which is "American Dream" after all. ----- Original Message ---- > From: Thomas Milne > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Sent: Wed, October 27, 2010 8:43:29 AM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Public Transit (was: today is the day) > > Okay, so the solution is a massive Soviet-style relocation of the > populace, not a few million for some streetcars. Amazing. Only the > most selfish, ideologically-driven car fanatic could come up with that > one. Yeah, William, we'll move out all the undesirables for you, so > you can continue to drive your pwecious wittle car :-) > > Meanwhile, back in the real world... > > -- > TBM > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 19:57:09 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:57:09 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <20101027175135.GP12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> <20101027175135.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:41:24PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> Toronto has always had bits of brilliant transit planning squished between >> large mounds of mediocrity. >> >> Brilliance: Building capacity for trains under the Bloor Viaduct ages before >> the trains were designed. > > That one was absolutely briliant. Well, almost. As you can read in the following history of the Bloor-Danforth line the Bloor Viaduct was built with an underground streetcar line in mind: - transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5104.shtml The provisioning for a streetcar line under the Bloor Viaduct helped a LOT, but the TTC did have to deal with sharp turns just west of the viaduct (turns that would not have been an issue for a streetcar to manage, but were for a subway)... >> Mediocrity: Putting the northwest line in the ditch made by the Spadina >> Expressway cock-up. > > I thought they always meant to have a subway/rail in the middle of > the expressway. ?I consider that to have been a smart plan given they > were tearing up the area anyhow. > >> Brilliance: maintaining streetcars in the face of political pressure and a >> continental shift away from them > > Well some of them. ?Of course one way streets have broken some of the > existing streetcar lines they used to have. A bit of the history of the current CLRV (Canadian Light Rail Vehicle), and how Toronto streets have a Swiss designed street car: - transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4503.shtml Going forward, the next generation of TTC streetcars will be based off the Bombardier FLEXITY streetcars: - www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/light-rail-vehicles?docID=0901260d8000a536 So, the TTC is going for a more-or-less off the shelf design. If you look at the various cities you will see that some cities have tweaked the design one way or another, I kind of like the ship style motif FLEXITY streetcars that were done for Marseille, France: - www.bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BT-FLEXITY_Outlook_Marseille.jpg >> Mediocrity: The Scarborough LRT The TTC wanted to run streetcars where the Scarborough LRT runs (a technology the TTC was/is comfortable with), but due to political pressure they went with the current system, details to be seen here: - transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5107.shtml What I think will go down as Brilliance: Design of the Sheppard line. The trains that run on the Yonge-University-Spadina and the Bloor-Danforth line are all 6 train cars long. On the Sheppard line trains are 4 cars long (not enough demand at present to justify longer trains). But if you pay attention to each of the stations on the Sheppard line, you will see they have made it easy to convert stations to 6 car operation (knock down a piece of wall and do some tile work...). >> Brilliance: GO Transit, easily one of the best suburban commuter rail >> systems on the continent > > It is absolutely awful. ?The line up through weston may become great now > that they are resignaling it (after buying it instead of leasing access > to the line), so that they can run trains more than every 30 minutes. > Now if they will run more frequent service and both ways throughout the > day, then it can start to be considered a good train system. ?As it is > it is probably the worst train system I have ever seen. > > If you lived downtown and worked in markham, you can't take the train to > work, because they only service the other direction. ?THe lakeshore lines > have service both ways throughout the day, but the other lines do not. > > So if you think Go is one of the best on the continent, then clearly > the continenent has no good commuter train service. > >> Mediocrity: Inter-system squabbling prevents logical and deeper integration >> of regional and local transit. > > That is bad. ?A few bits are slowly improving. ?Some viva lines are now > allowed to operate full service in TTC area and accept TTC fare for that > (the viva orange between downsview and york university for example is > now considered TTC service so you can take the subway and then get on > the viva express bus up to the university using your metropass or the > fare you already paid for the subway). > >> Too much of Toronto's transit grid is designed to go through Union Station. >> This mentality has prevented consideration of valuable *existing* resources >> (such as the east-west train lines parallel to Dupont and Steeles that could >> serve transit well but are untouched by GO.) The downtown-centric mentality >> that encourages this "vision" will hopefully be shaken away by finally being >> forced to listen to the suburban voices. > > That is the biggest problem they have. ?Who cares about union station > anymore, there is plenty of other parts of toronto people work in. > > -- > Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 20:03:42 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:03:42 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <20101027154021.GH12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC7B328.40902@dinamis.com> <20101027154021.GH12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC8859E.3060704@dinamis.com> On 10/27/2010 11:40 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:05:44AM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> This was a success, though not in the way he or the NIMBY groups who >> opposed the bridge thought it would be. Porter Air built up a >> first-class airline on the island despite what a columnist characterized >> as "the world's most pointless ferry ride". We now have a viable option >> for short-hop flights to various destinations that we didn't have >> before. That's a good thing and we have David Miller to thank for it. > > And you don't think Porter would have done well if there was a bridge? > Your argument makes no sense. The argument, which really isn't mine but one that I read and thought made sense, is that Air Canada/Jazz was pushing hard for the bridge to expand operations at the Island Airport, which is now called Billy Bishop Airport, apparently. (I wasn't aware of the name change until a few weeks ago.) When the bridge was killed, AC effectively abandoned the island and that left the door open for Porter to start an airline offering exceptional service and flourish with no competition at the airport. The very thing the NIMBYs and Miller wanted to do, which was to make the airport not viable for commercial operations by depriving it of the convenience of having a bridge, was the thing that protected Porter and made it such a resounding success that today, that airport is busier than it ever has been. That is an exemplar of the law of unintended consequences. >> Having a "light rail" line that bisects streets destroys neighbourhoods. >> Spadina is now essentially a highway with a rail line through the middle >> with lots of ugly overhead wiring. Merchants along St. Clair Ave. W. >> fought hard against the same thing in their neighbourhood but lost. >> Arguably, you couldn't make Sheppard Ave. much uglier than it already is >> by doing the same but light rail lines do have their drawbacks, not that >> busses are a wonderful substitute. Look at the Scarborough LRT. It has >> to be replaced because politicians of the day made the expedient rather >> than the right choice. It has never worked reliably and now, they >> apparently can't get replacement cars. The right choice was and >> continues to be a subway. That was the original vision and hopefully, >> that will be implemented. It's amazing that Ford's plan of completing >> the Sheppard subway and replacement of the Scarborough LRT with a subway >> line is seen as "radical". That plan has been in existence for more than >> 20 years but no one has had the political will or vision to implement >> it. It remains to be seen how successful Ford will be at it. It's insane >> that we're still arguing over something that should have been completed >> 20 years ago. > > And if the car guys had their way spadina would have been an expressway > 30 years ago. Now that would almost certainly have destroyed the > neighbourhood. It was stupid to stop that expressway. It was the usual NIMBY nonsense that crippled this city. We ended up with a pointless highway to nowhere that created more traffic problems than it solved by having these stumps of highways ending on east/west roads. > If they really wanted replacement cars I am sure someone would build > them, but they might not be cheap because they wouldn't be reusing an > existing design. The fact toronto's subway is completely nonstandard > makes them more expensive than they had to be. > >> Read if you want to >> have a good laugh over the grandiose plans of 1985 for "Network 2011". >> None of it ever got implemented. You can bet expensive consultants were >> paid handsomely for all sorts of reports, models, etc. but it amounted >> to nothing. >> >> We have 248 streetcars, most of which are apparently near the end of >> their service life as per WikiPedia >> . "Unique track >> gauge" alone sounds like it's just a recipe for overpaying. The best >> analogy I can think of is PCs vs. proprietary mini-computers and we know >> how that one turned out. > > The only part of Toronto's system that uses a standard track gauge is > the LRT. The subway and streetcars use the same gauge and nothing else > in the world uses it. > >> Having said that, I doubt Ford will be able to convince Council to get >> rid of streetcars so those who like streetcars don't have to worry about >> this issue, at least not until there is a viable replacement, which >> isn't going to happen anytime soon. > > I sure hope so. > >> By the way, reading in the second WikiPedia article about the Queen and >> Eglinton subway lines that were started but never got completed is sad. >> Imagine how differently the city would have evolved had there been two >> more east/west lines. > > Well the queen subway was a streetcar based subway. Could have been > nice given how awful service is on the queenline through downtown. > >> More people vote directly for the Mayor of Toronto than for any other >> politician in Canada, including our Premier and Prime Minister, both of >> whom are elected directly only by their respective parties and then by >> constituents in their respective ridings. Given that, Ford seems to have >> done rather well for "a right wing retard", which goes to show that >> success, or lack of thereof, in high school has little correlation to >> success later in life, assuming that he really did struggle to get >> through high school. >> >> I recall a Princeton grad, no less, who authorized "wise guy" political >> ads during this mayoral campaign. It just goes to show that formal >> education and common sense aren't necessarily correlated either. (What >> in the world was he thinking anyway? What a stain on an otherwise >> reasonable campaign.) >> >> To you and 95,481 other people, apparently. Unfortunately for Pantalone, >> 289,832 people thought that Smitherman was a better choice, and 383,501 >> people, almost one in two of those who voted, thought that Ford was the >> best choice. Every one of the 37 other candidates managed to garner some >> votes, including Gerald Derome, who came in last with 251 votes. Watch >> that guy - he has nowhere to go but up. :) > > Well I hope Ford manages to clean up city hall and get things to be > more efficient. Unfortunately streetcars are more efficient than busses > and subways are stupidly expensive to build, so he doesn't seem to be > in complete agreement with himself on that. I don't think anyone argues that subways are cheap to build, not even Ford, but the argument is that light rail lines have to be replaced every 25 to 30 years and have problems with inclement weather, of which we have no shortage, but subways last three to four times longer and aren't affected by inclement weather. "Cheaper" isn't always "best value for the money" and you're the first to argue that in the context of computers. >> Toronto has the highest level of business taxes in the GTA. That causes >> many businesses to move to Mississauga, Vaughan, or Markham, which all >> have substantially lower business taxes but higher residential property >> taxes. That contributes to urban sprawl, smog, reduced viability of >> public transit (you need higher densities for mass transit), and >> gridlock, all things that no matter whom you voted for, you would >> probably agree are undesirable things. Cutting business taxes would be a >> good start to making Toronto more competitive in the region. I don't >> want Toronto to be a bedroom community for the outlying regions. I want >> people to be able to live close to where they work and vice versa. Only >> then can we put a dent into the serious problems that we have with the >> unsustainable sprawl, traffic, and concomitant environmental impact. > > I am not sure there is room in Toronto for a lot of new businesses. There is lots of room in Toronto for new businesses. We just squander it and for reasons I outlined above, investors would rather build residential units rather than commercial units. > I also didn't know my property taxes in Markham were high, but I don't > know what people pay in Toronto. The City of Toronto has the lowest level of residential taxes in the GTA. Commercial properties are taxed at the highest level in the GTA. Rectifying that is of course politically suicidal so it's unlikely to change. > As for Toronto being a bedroom community, don't worry. It is much too > expensive to live in for that to happen. It has already happened. There is no such thing as "rush hour" or "going against traffic" any more. Traffic northbound from Toronto to Markham is often as heavy as traffic going south. > Adding more business to Toronto > will do the reverse in fact and make traffic worse as all those people > out in mississauga and markham and such are commuting to jobs in Toronto. We're building lots of condos all over the city. Where are all those people going to work? As Herb Richter asked, what is the point of adding greater density if all we're going to do is force people to commute to some other jurisdiction? Good planning should require a mix of residential and commercial space. >> In 2006, the city allegedly overpaid by $100 million for new subway cars >> due to single-source contracts. That isn't exactly pocket change and >> that is just one of many things that Council spent money on. Who knows >> how they spent the other few billion? We already know that some >> councillors spent their office budgets stupidly while some councillors >> were promoting stupidities like $3.5 million flag poles. If the >> allegations of overpaying $100 million on the subway cars are true, and >> we'll never know because it already happened, that was $100 million that >> couldn't have been spent on something else, or $100 million too much >> that they took from taxpayers, who in turn couldn't have spent it on >> something else themselves. There is always an opportunity cost for such >> decisions, no matter how noble the motives may be. I've read irrelevant >> arguments of how buying from Bombardier, we were supporting a major >> employer in Thunder Bay. It isn't the job of the TTC or Toronto City >> Council to engage in economic development efforts beyond its borders. > > Oh having the city councel cleaned up would be great. I recall the > computer contract scandel and there have been others. Clearly the city > hasn't been run well in many cases. > > Now can anyone prove that they did in fact overpay? How much did other > places want to charge for subway cars for toronto's custom tracks? > A lot of places don't even want to touch toronto's system because it > doesn't really fit in their factories. Bombardier knows the toronto > system and has made trains for it before. They know when they are > getting into. Often you end up going with a low bid and then end up > with cost overruns or things that don't work because they didn't really > know what they were getting into. Siemens claimed they could save the city at least $100 million if they were allowed to bid in 2006. We'll never know if their bid would have been viable or if by their mere presence Bombardier would have sharpened its pencil. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 20:19:37 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: today is the day In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101025200053.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Robert Brockway > wrote: >> Hmm.. When I play Simcity[1] I always put in a good public transport system >> ?but I've never played with a deliberate bias away from cars (despite my >> real-world views on this). ?I'm going to try that :) > > Which may be somewhat interesting, but with the caveat that it will > indicate whatever model the authors encoded into Simcity, as opposed > to forcibly being a reflection of reality. Indeed, but given that it is now OSS it could be _improved_ :) > --> There are carless people that connect thru the core that perceive I initially parsed this as 'careless' :) Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 20:19:49 2010 From: scruss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Stewart Russell) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:19:49 -0400 Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: <519302.66305.qm-iGg6QNsgFOH6X00i2u5GFvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <519302.66305.qm@web113413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:54 PM, William Park wrote: > > I just > couldn't help marvel at American Interstate system. ?It makes affordable housing > possible, which is "American Dream" after all. I think we have the streetcar suburbs of the early 20th century to thank for that. Dig though any of the old streetcar maps for any NA city on the David Rumsey Historical Map Collection , and you'll be amazed how far out they go. The Eisenhower interstates came much later. Stewart (who doesn't apologize for the number of hours you'll lose on David Rumsey's website) -- http://scruss.com/blog/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 21:28:55 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:28:55 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC8859E.3060704-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC7B328.40902@dinamis.com> <20101027154021.GH12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC8859E.3060704@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20101027212855.GQ12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 04:03:42PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > The argument, which really isn't mine but one that I read and thought > made sense, is that Air Canada/Jazz was pushing hard for the bridge to > expand operations at the Island Airport, which is now called Billy > Bishop Airport, apparently. (I wasn't aware of the name change until a > few weeks ago.) When the bridge was killed, AC effectively abandoned the > island and that left the door open for Porter to start an airline > offering exceptional service and flourish with no competition at the > airport. The very thing the NIMBYs and Miller wanted to do, which was to > make the airport not viable for commercial operations by depriving it of > the convenience of having a bridge, was the thing that protected Porter > and made it such a resounding success that today, that airport is busier > than it ever has been. That is an exemplar of the law of unintended > consequences. I thought porter had bought the terminal and kicked air canada out. > It was stupid to stop that expressway. It was the usual NIMBY nonsense > that crippled this city. We ended up with a pointless highway to nowhere > that created more traffic problems than it solved by having these stumps > of highways ending on east/west roads. The highway would have been a good idea and yes eglington is much worse off from having a highway end at it. > I don't think anyone argues that subways are cheap to build, not even > Ford, but the argument is that light rail lines have to be replaced > every 25 to 30 years and have problems with inclement weather, of which > we have no shortage, but subways last three to four times longer and > aren't affected by inclement weather. "Cheaper" isn't always "best value > for the money" and you're the first to argue that in the context of > computers. Well our existing subway system has plenty of surface sections. They seem to manage OK even in the winter. The go trains seem to have a lot more problems with winter for some reason than the subway does. Most of the subways are even parked outside when not in use. Sure long term subways probably work out cheaper to maintain. At least I would hope so, but that up front cost is huge if you have to tunnel it. If you can dig it from the surface instead it would be a lot cheaper. So if it goes somewhere without buildings on top, then the cost should be a lot lower. > There is lots of room in Toronto for new businesses. We just squander it > and for reasons I outlined above, investors would rather build > residential units rather than commercial units. > > The City of Toronto has the lowest level of residential taxes in the > GTA. Commercial properties are taxed at the highest level in the GTA. > Rectifying that is of course politically suicidal so it's unlikely to > change. Well perhaps if people in Toronto want a decent city to live in they have to vote for someone willing to do the right things. > It has already happened. There is no such thing as "rush hour" or "going > against traffic" any more. Traffic northbound from Toronto to Markham is > often as heavy as traffic going south. > > We're building lots of condos all over the city. Where are all those > people going to work? As Herb Richter asked, what is the point of adding > greater density if all we're going to do is force people to commute to > some other jurisdiction? Good planning should require a mix of > residential and commercial space. Certainly a mix is required. > Siemens claimed they could save the city at least $100 million if they > were allowed to bid in 2006. We'll never know if their bid would have > been viable or if by their mere presence Bombardier would have sharpened > its pencil. Hmm, I seem to recall seeing a mock up steetcar/light rail from siemens at the Ex a few years ago. The design and layout was awful. The bombardier design was much more practical. No idea if siemens subway designs are better. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 21:43:34 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:43:34 -0400 Subject: OT: today is the day In-Reply-To: <4CC83123.2050606-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101026210042.GG12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC7B328.40902@dinamis.com> <4CC83123.2050606@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CC89D06.3070703@rogers.com> Update: I just heard on the news that Buttonville airport is going to close. This will make the island airport even more important. James Knott wrote: > CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: >> though not in the way he or the NIMBY groups who opposed the bridge >> thought it would be. > I find it a bit much that those who moved into the area, long after > the airport was built (1938), feel they have a right to complain about > it. I live under a flight path into Pearson. As I moved here, > knowing full well the airport was there, I do not complain, nor do I > have the right to. It'd be different if the island airport had been > built after those people moved in. The same thing happened several > years ago, when people moved in next to the stockyards. > > As for the waterfront, why is that area crammed with condos, when it > was supposed to be open to the people? Where do I go to complain > about all those unsightly condos blocking access to the lake? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 21:51:34 2010 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:51:34 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101027175135.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <201010271751.34405.dbmacg@look.ca> On Wednesday 27 October 2010 15:57:09 you wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Lennart Sorensen > > wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:41:24PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >> Toronto has always had bits of brilliant transit planning squished > >> between large mounds of mediocrity. > >> > >> Brilliance: Building capacity for trains under the Bloor Viaduct ages > >> before the trains were designed. > > > > That one was absolutely briliant. > > Well, almost. As you can read in the following history of the > Bloor-Danforth line the Bloor Viaduct was built with an underground > streetcar line in mind: > > - transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5104.shtml > > The provisioning for a streetcar line under the Bloor Viaduct helped a > LOT, but the TTC did have to deal with sharp turns just west of the > viaduct (turns that would not have been an issue for a streetcar to > manage, but were for a subway)... > > >> Mediocrity: Putting the northwest line in the ditch made by the Spadina > >> Expressway cock-up. Even more mediocrity. The Spadina expressway, etc., etc., was justification for creating a 401 Interchange for Cadillac Fairview's Yorkdale shopping centre, as requested of the Province by CF. > >> Brilliance: maintaining streetcars in the face of political pressure and > >> a continental shift away from them > > > > Well some of them. Of course one way streets have broken some of the > > existing streetcar lines they used to have. > > A bit of the history of the current CLRV (Canadian Light Rail > Vehicle), and how Toronto streets have a Swiss designed street car: > > - transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4503.shtml > > Going forward, the next generation of TTC streetcars will be based off > the Bombardier FLEXITY streetcars: Actually, a modern LRV looks more like a train than a streetcar. It has five to seven doors, and five to seven units, low floors, and an isolated motorman. > www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail- vehicles/light > -rail-vehicles?docID=0901260d8000a536 > > So, the TTC is going for a more-or-less off the shelf design. If you > look at the various cities you will see that some cities have tweaked > the design one way or another, I kind of like the ship style motif > FLEXITY streetcars that were done for Marseille, France: There is no such thing as off-the-shelf design. a modern LRV is a combination of standard parts. Even GM does not have an off-the shelf automobile. (That's why they sell more than one model.) LRV width, power supply, and track gauge, cars-per-train are all parts to be selected. > www.bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BT- FL > EXITY_Outlook_Marseille.jpg > > >> Mediocrity: The Scarborough LRT > > The TTC wanted to run streetcars where the Scarborough LRT runs (a > technology the TTC was/is comfortable with), but due to political > pressure they went with the current system, details to be seen here: The TTC wanted an extension of the current system, and the Province wanted a showpiece. Funny how the SRT is so noisy, when it is powered by linear motors, that could be silent. every rattle and bang on that equipment is a testament to sloppy design. > - transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5107.shtml > > What I think will go down as Brilliance: Design of the Sheppard line. > The trains that run on the Yonge-University-Spadina and the > Bloor-Danforth line are all 6 train cars long. On the Sheppard line > trains are 4 cars long (not enough demand at present to justify longer > trains). But if you pay attention to each of the stations on the > Sheppard line, you will see they have made it easy to convert stations > to 6 car operation (knock down a piece of wall and do some tile > work...). The Eglinton LRT is to have a tunnel that could accommodate a subway. > >> Brilliance: GO Transit, easily one of the best suburban commuter rail > >> systems on the continent > > > > It is absolutely awful. -- snip -- North Toronto station still has five tracks. Summerhill Subway station was built so as to allow for an entrance at the *south* end of the platform directly to North Toronto Station. The Province's 2020 plans include making the east-west CPR line into a GO Line. Dunc MacGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From xanexp-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 22:00:25 2010 From: xanexp-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Xane) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:00:25 -0400 Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? Message-ID: Hey guys, I am really disappointed about this group. I have joined here couple of days ago just because I am interested in Linux, but since then the only conversation I am getting is around Toronto's Mayoral candidates, recent election, Toronto public transit etc. These have nothing to do with the purpose of this group. I don't really get it why those of you who are interested in these topics do not go and join other thousands of groups or forums where you can better enjoy yourself. Under the description of this group, it is clearly mentioned "This list is for the discussion of Linux related issues, news, problems, and ideas. This list is not anyone's personal soapbox. It is not for the discussion of political, social, or religious issues, bad jokes, personal rants or similar non Linux related discussion": http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Don't get me wrong, I am not against any of the city or mayoral conversations, my point is why we don't do it somewhere else where you can really enjoy talking about it with same people interested like you. I am not here to argue or anything, if this continues, I will simply unsubscribe, but I thought I give it a try before doing so. Thanks for your understating. Xane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 22:21:23 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:21:23 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> <20101027175135.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101027222123.GR12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 03:57:09PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Well, almost. As you can read in the following history of the > Bloor-Danforth line the Bloor Viaduct was built with an underground > streetcar line in mind: > > - transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5104.shtml > > The provisioning for a streetcar line under the Bloor Viaduct helped a > LOT, but the TTC did have to deal with sharp turns just west of the > viaduct (turns that would not have been an issue for a streetcar to > manage, but were for a subway)... Well slight hassle, but they managed. > A bit of the history of the current CLRV (Canadian Light Rail > Vehicle), and how Toronto streets have a Swiss designed street car: > > - transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4503.shtml > > Going forward, the next generation of TTC streetcars will be based off > the Bombardier FLEXITY streetcars: > > - www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/light-rail-vehicles?docID=0901260d8000a536 They look quite nice. > So, the TTC is going for a more-or-less off the shelf design. If you > look at the various cities you will see that some cities have tweaked > the design one way or another, I kind of like the ship style motif > FLEXITY streetcars that were done for Marseille, France: > > - www.bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BT-FLEXITY_Outlook_Marseille.jpg > > >> Mediocrity: The Scarborough LRT > > The TTC wanted to run streetcars where the Scarborough LRT runs (a > technology the TTC was/is comfortable with), but due to political > pressure they went with the current system, details to be seen here: > > - transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5107.shtml Well at least vancouver seems happy with their system. Of course they run the newer cars and are actually expanding the system. > What I think will go down as Brilliance: Design of the Sheppard line. > The trains that run on the Yonge-University-Spadina and the > Bloor-Danforth line are all 6 train cars long. On the Sheppard line > trains are 4 cars long (not enough demand at present to justify longer > trains). But if you pay attention to each of the stations on the > Sheppard line, you will see they have made it easy to convert stations > to 6 car operation (knock down a piece of wall and do some tile > work...). Yeah I noticed that the first time I was ever on the sheppard line. Sensible way to do it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 22:26:18 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:26:18 -0400 Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101027222618.GS12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 06:00:25PM -0400, Xane wrote: > I am really disappointed about this group. I have joined here couple of days > ago just because I am interested in Linux, but since then the only > conversation I am getting is around Toronto's Mayoral candidates, recent > election, Toronto public transit etc. These have nothing to do with the > purpose of this group. I don't really get it why those of you who are > interested in these topics do not go and join other thousands of groups or > forums where you can better enjoy yourself. Under the description of this > group, it is clearly mentioned "This list is for the discussion of Linux > related issues, news, problems, and ideas. This list is not anyone's > personal soapbox. It is not for the discussion of political, social, or > religious issues, bad jokes, personal rants or similar non Linux related > discussion": http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Where is a good forum for this particular topic? Does it have the same level of intelligent people? > Don't get me wrong, I am not against any of the city or mayoral > conversations, my point is why we don't do it somewhere else where you can > really enjoy talking about it with same people interested like you. I am not > here to argue or anything, if this continues, I will simply unsubscribe, but > I thought I give it a try before doing so. > > Thanks for your understating. It happens occationally. I think if you try to be too strict about a community, you end up killing it. This discussion has actually been surprisingly civilized compared to a few that have happend over the years when things get off topic. This one even seems to be marked off topic. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 22:30:17 2010 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:30:17 -0400 Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? In-Reply-To: <20101027222618.GS12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101027222618.GS12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <201010271830.17174.dbmacg@look.ca> On Wednesday 27 October 2010 18:26:18 you wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 06:00:25PM -0400, Xane wrote: > > I am really disappointed about this group. That is unfortunate. > > I have joined here couple of > > days ago just because I am interested in Linux, but ... Patience, please. Duncan MacGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 22:30:39 2010 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:30:39 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <20101027222123.GR12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027222123.GR12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <201010271830.39646.dbmacg@look.ca> On Wednesday 27 October 2010 18:21:23 you wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 03:57:09PM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > > Well, almost. As you can read in the following history of the > > Bloor-Danforth line the Bloor Viaduct was built with an underground > > streetcar line in mind: > > > > - transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5104.shtml > > > > The provisioning for a streetcar line under the Bloor Viaduct helped a > > LOT, but the TTC did have to deal with sharp turns just west of the > > viaduct (turns that would not have been an issue for a streetcar to > > manage, but were for a subway)... > > Well slight hassle, but they managed. > The two bridges were to have been a part of the radial roads project, in which roads and subways/streetcars would travel downtown diagonally. The Parliament/Castle Frank bridge was to feed a line going southwest, not west, and could not be used for a westbound subway continuation along Bloor. -- Duncan MacGregor -- Toronto -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 22:39:15 2010 From: timhildred-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Timothy Hildred) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:39:15 -0400 Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? In-Reply-To: <201010271830.17174.dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM@public.gmane.org> References: <20101027222618.GS12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <201010271830.17174.dbmacg@look.ca> Message-ID: And there is something to be said for seeing what Toronto Linux users, as a unique subset of the population, think about the politics of their city. On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Duncan MacGregor wrote: > On Wednesday 27 October 2010 18:26:18 you wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 06:00:25PM -0400, Xane wrote: > > > I am really disappointed about this group. > > That is unfortunate. > > > > I have joined here couple of > > > days ago just because I am interested in Linux, but ... > > > > Patience, please. > > Duncan MacGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 22:42:38 2010 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:42:38 -0400 Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52C32038-65B6-4EE0-8FF4-0170E9177500@acm.org> On 2010-10-27, at 6:00 PM, Xane wrote: > These have nothing to do with the purpose of this group. I think you have a reasonable point. I also think the best way to deal with it -- especially since it's been quiet here otherwise -- would be to raise a Linux topic that interests you. That way you'll discover whether the potential for information outweighs the annoyance of some conversational drift. So, what would you like to ask or tell? :-)-- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 27 22:48:09 2010 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:48:09 -0400 Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC8AC29.9060908@dinamis.com> Yes, this is really a Linux user group with real people who have more than one dimension to them. On 10/27/2010 06:00 PM, Xane wrote: > Hey guys, > > I am really disappointed about this group. Why? Have you asked a question that wasn't answered? Did it get drowned out in all the off-topic discussion? Do you have some Linux-related questions? If so, fire away and you may get responses. > I have joined here couple of > days ago just because I am interested in Linux, Welcome! > but since then the only > conversation I am getting is around Toronto's Mayoral candidates, recent > election, Toronto public transit etc. Then "tune out" that conversation. You have the option in most decent email clients of ignoring threads you're not interested in. Even when the messages are on-topic, they're not all interesting to everyone all the time. > These have nothing to do with the > purpose of this group. I don't really get it why those of you who are > interested in these topics do not go and join other thousands of groups > or forums where you can better enjoy yourself. Under the description of > this group, it is clearly mentioned "This list is for the discussion of > Linux related issues, news, problems, and ideas. This list is not > anyone's personal soapbox. It is not for the discussion of political, > social, or religious issues, bad jokes, personal rants or similar non > Linux related discussion": http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > Don't get me wrong, I am not against any of the city or mayoral > conversations, my point is why we don't do it somewhere else where you > can really enjoy talking about it with same people interested like you. It appears there were more than few people interested in those topics right here on this list so there was no need to go elsewhere. > I am not here to argue or anything, if this continues, I will simply > unsubscribe, but I thought I give it a try before doing so. > > Thanks for your understating. You should search the list archives. I think you'll find lots of useful discussion, and the occasional off-topic discussions, too. I, for one, don't mind if we veer off-topic once in a while, particularly when it's very difficult to separate politics from technology and particularly when the subject clearly indicates messages as such. Someone has already touched on how the new Mayor might be open to using open source software to save money so the discussion isn't entirely off-topic, not that I think it has to be on-topic, all the time. Whom we elect to govern us certainly matters even if we're only narrowly focused on the open source software agenda. If you decide to unsubscribe based upon a sample of two days when understandably, the talk has been about the municipal election, that would be unfortunate and the list will somehow manage to survive without you but we would be happy to have you back should you reconsider later. I suggest patience, and ignoring threads that don't interest you. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 00:09:00 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:09:00 -0400 Subject: Toronto Social Technology Un-Conference Message-ID: Regarding Xane's comment about if this is a Linux user group mailing list (as opposed to recent discussions about transit and the recent municipal election), let me turn attention to last Saturday's Social Technology Un-Conference... Last Saturday I was out at the FreeGeek Toronto's (www.freegeektoronto.org) Social Technology Un-conference. The location was near Bloor and St. George (great for me as I came by subway, would not have been so good for the car drivers). This was a fairly last minute semi-replacement for the canceled Ontario Linuxfest. While much of the conference dealt with Linux, it wasn't directly a Linux conference (ie: there was a talk about making money with open source, which was generic enough to apply to things like FreeBSD, etc...). Classic problem, 3 program tracks, so no way possible to see everything. In a few cases I bounced from one talk area to another, and sampled bits from different speakers. There was an element of the surreal regarding the Toronto Free-Net talk, an organization I've been involved with since 1993 (there was an element there of knowing more than the speaker... :-) ). Not sure how many GTALug folks were there, I did see GTALug board member Myles Braithwaite who gave a talk about CouchDB... During the un-conference part, where people were asked to do a talk about their favorite open source project, I volunteered to talk about my favorite hardware pig and Linux application, MythTV (see: www.mythtv.org ). One of the people there wondered about using MythTV as the basis of a video-on-demand system for a large apartment complex, something I could instantly see several major issues with ... mind you if someone were willing to offer me buckets of money, I would be happy to tackle said problems :-) . Some MythTV related contract work would be neat :-) . Not sure if the FreeGeek people will repeat something like this next year, but if they do I would recommend it... Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 00:21:35 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Xane wrote: > Hey guys, > > I am really disappointed about this group. I have joined here couple of days Hi Xane. I think your sample space may be a little small :) As others have noted, check the archives. LUG lists are usually like this with a mixture of on-topic and off-topic discussions. This is because LUGs are communities of intelligent, inquisitive people. Sometimes a seperate list is created for off-topic chat but GTALUG has never felt the need. A lot of people here have spent a lot of years supporting and giving to Linux and open source and if we feel like having an off-topic discussion I think we should be allowed to :) It's easy to ignore threads that don't interest you. I do it all the time. If you want to talk about Linux, start a thread :) Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 00:52:37 2010 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:52:37 -0400 Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ed697ffeb99b32e781856f46955917c.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Hello Xane, It seems you subscribed just at the wrong time :-) Prior to the "Today is the day" thread which was fairly long and changed into the "Public transit" thread there where discussion on SPF, Ubuntu on a USB stick, technical predictions, Apache and Dell computers, So don't fret, Linux and technology are discussed here all the time. Personally I like some off topic discussion, you get to know the views of others and get to know them as people as well as learn all kinds of other stuff. Cheers, Jason > Hey guys, > > I am really disappointed about this group. I have joined here couple of > days > ago just because I am interested in Linux, but since then the only > conversation I am getting is around Toronto's Mayoral candidates, recent > election, Toronto public transit etc. These have nothing to do with the > purpose of this group. I don't really get it why those of you who are > interested in these topics do not go and join other thousands of groups or > forums where you can better enjoy yourself. Under the description of this > group, it is clearly mentioned "This list is for the discussion of Linux > related issues, news, problems, and ideas. This list is not anyone's > personal soapbox. It is not for the discussion of political, social, or > religious issues, bad jokes, personal rants or similar non Linux related > discussion": http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > Don't get me wrong, I am not against any of the city or mayoral > conversations, my point is why we don't do it somewhere else where you can > really enjoy talking about it with same people interested like you. I am > not > here to argue or anything, if this continues, I will simply unsubscribe, > but > I thought I give it a try before doing so. > > Thanks for your understating. > > Xane > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 12:22:34 2010 From: andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org (Andrew Cowie) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:22:34 +0200 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: <4CC6E2D4.6010606-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC6E2D4.6010606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1288268554.28692.122.camel@worthil.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> On Tue, 2010-10-26 at 10:16 -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > MySQL is great. It's not going to disappear, it may fork though. In a sense it already has, with the bulk of the core developers now working on Drizzle (and in many cases, having left MySQL ^W Sun ^W Oracle). AfC Granada -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 14:11:20 2010 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <559050.21291.qm@web113411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> You have point. I blame Yanni for branching into "Public Transit". :-) There are 365 days in a year, and you've only seen a few days of it. But, it does indicate "responsiveness" and "dedication" of TLUG list members. If you were to ask Linux questions, I'm sure our answers will be equally varied and relevant, and all typed on Linux machines. -- William > >From: Xane >To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org >Sent: Wed, October 27, 2010 6:00:25 PM >Subject: [TLUG]: Is this really a Linux user group? > > >Hey guys, > >I am really disappointed about this group. I have joined here couple of days ago >just because I am interested in Linux, but since then the only conversation I am >getting is around Toronto's Mayoral candidates, recent election, Toronto public >transit etc. These have nothing to do with the purpose of this group. I don't >really get it why those of you who are interested in these topics do not go and >join other thousands of groups or forums where you can better enjoy yourself. >Under the description of this group, it is clearly mentioned "This list is for >the discussion of Linux related issues, news, problems, and ideas. This list is >not anyone's personal soapbox. It is not for the discussion of political, >social, or religious issues, bad jokes, personal rants or similar non Linux >related discussion": http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > >Don't get me wrong, I am not against any of the city or mayoral conversations, >my point is why we don't do it somewhere else where you can really enjoy talking >about it with same people interested like you. I am not here to argue or >anything, if this continues, I will simply unsubscribe, but I thought I give it >a try before doing so. > >Thanks for your understating. > >Xane > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 14:16:24 2010 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:16:24 -0400 Subject: Is this really a Linux user group? In-Reply-To: <559050.21291.qm-iGg6QNsgFOGORdMXk8NaZPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org> References: <559050.21291.qm@web113411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I like it that you can talk about other things in TLUG other than linux occasionally. We have quite a smart bunch and a variety of different opinions on a variety of topics. It's nice to see some intelligent comparisons and differences in a variety of topics some times. On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:11 AM, William Park wrote: > You have point. I blame Yanni for branching into "Public Transit". :-) > There are 365 days in a year, and you've only seen a few days of it. But, > it does indicate "responsiveness" and "dedication" of TLUG list members. If > you were to ask Linux questions, I'm sure our answers will be equally varied > and relevant, and all typed on Linux machines. > -- > William > > > *From:* Xane > *To:* tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > *Sent:* Wed, October 27, 2010 6:00:25 PM > *Subject:* [TLUG]: Is this really a Linux user group? > > Hey guys, > > I am really disappointed about this group. I have joined here couple of > days ago just because I am interested in Linux, but since then the only > conversation I am getting is around Toronto's Mayoral candidates, recent > election, Toronto public transit etc. These have nothing to do with the > purpose of this group. I don't really get it why those of you who are > interested in these topics do not go and join other thousands of groups or > forums where you can better enjoy yourself. Under the description of this > group, it is clearly mentioned "This list is for the discussion of Linux > related issues, news, problems, and ideas. This list is not anyone's > personal soapbox. It is not for the discussion of political, social, or > religious issues, bad jokes, personal rants or similar non Linux related > discussion": http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > Don't get me wrong, I am not against any of the city or mayoral > conversations, my point is why we don't do it somewhere else where you can > really enjoy talking about it with same people interested like you. I am not > here to argue or anything, if this continues, I will simply unsubscribe, but > I thought I give it a try before doing so. > > Thanks for your understating. > > Xane > > > -- Dave Germiquet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 14:58:20 2010 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:58:20 -0400 Subject: Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Version -- one step forward, 10 steps back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC98F8C.8020907@the-wire.com> On 10-10-18 02:54 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > On 18 October 2010 14:51, aaron d wrote: > >> ok, so you are describing something worse than the left handed menu that >> was in 10.04? > > > > Yes I am. There are no menus along the left, just a rolling Mac-like scroll > of application icons. > > The icon scrolling is designed well for a swiping finger but badly for a > mouse and horribly for a touchpad. Looks like this will be their desktop (on desktops, even) in 11.04 . Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 16:05:16 2010 From: jtc-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK at public.gmane.org (JOSE) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:05:16 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <20101027172112.GO12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> <20101027172112.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CC99F3C.4090309@totaltravelmarketing.com> On 27/10/2010 1:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:12:02PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> The subway system is a very imperfect hub-and-spoke system. If you >> are traveling between two spokes, your transit time naturally >> doubles. Two hours is better than I would have feared. >> >> When the subway was built, many families had only one person who >> worked out of the house. So there was a better chance that a home >> could be picked to reduce commute time. And the city was a lot >> smaller: suburbs as we know them go going about the same time as the >> first subway line opened. > > Unfortunately both the subway and go trains are run with the assumption > that people are going to work in downtown toronto and live in the suburbs. > That isn't true anymore, but the system still assumes it. many of the > train lines still only bring people in to toronto in the morning and out > in the evening (and the trains run back empty bypassing all the stations > on the way back). > >> Interesting. >> >> Most people sure didn't drive to the City then. >> I think that they took a combination of the underground, buses, and trains. >> >> The London Transit system is quite complicated (so is the road >> system!). Interestingly, I find that the stops are a bit far apart. >> But it covers what I think of as London in a 2D fashion rather than >> our 2.5 * 1D subway system. >> >> [I originally wrote 2d and 1d but I didn't want you to think I was >> talking about the fare. London omnibus fare system in 1921 was 1d >> (i.e. one penny) per mile according to >> .] >> >> Scaling transit is a tricky thing. There seem to be phase changes in >> the process. What works for one scale of city may not work for >> another: Kitchener, Ottawa, Toronto, New York. History has a large >> effect too -- London's history is so different from Toronto's that >> lessons may not be very applicable. > > Montreal certainly has a far better subway layout than toronto. I think > their train service is actually better too, but I am not entirely sure > about that. > Montreal's system has a better layout no dobt about it, but it runs slower for some reason, I've had to wait for trains for almost 10-15 minutes, their users seem to be so used to it that one of my companions actually observed nobody seemed to mind the waiting, people in Toronto would be upset if they had to wait that long, even for 5 minutes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 16:57:41 2010 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:57:41 -0400 Subject: Wireless encryption Message-ID: I've done some research on this but haven't had any luck ... In the old days of "hubs" you could sniff pretty much anyone's network traffic just by plugging into the hub. And the same thing is true of unencrypted wireless traffic: just get your wireless card in promiscuous mode and start logging. But now comes the question(s): if Alice and Bob are both connected/associated to the same wireless router that uses WEP encryption, can Bob see (sniff) Alice's traffic as clear text? How about with WPA, and WPA2? I encourage people to use SSL at all times anyway ... Blame Firesheep for the questions. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 17:23:28 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:23:28 -0400 Subject: Office Software Politics In-Reply-To: <1288268554.28692.122.camel-p7aX53JaVWoe/2IRKz1ZWdih8TpMrEp6psu3eQ5ks+k5UWNf+nJyDw@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025223807.GY12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC6E2D4.6010606@gmail.com> <1288268554.28692.122.camel@worthil.roaming.operationaldynamics.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Andrew Cowie wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-26 at 10:16 -0400, Mike Kallies wrote: > >> MySQL is great. ?It's not going to disappear, it may fork though. > > In a sense it already has, with the bulk of the core developers now > working on Drizzle (and in many cases, having left MySQL ^W Sun ^W > Oracle). If this survives, whether via Drizzle, MariaDB, or Percona's fork, then it will put the lie to the belief that "dueling licenses" are a necessary thing, in that, since none of the relevant organizations hold title to the code, and thus cannot do business by selling proprietary versions. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 20:41:54 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:41:54 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CC99F3C.4090309-vS8X3Ji+8Wg6e3DpGhMbh2oLBQzVVOGK@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> <20101027172112.GO12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC99F3C.4090309@totaltravelmarketing.com> Message-ID: On 28 October 2010 12:05, JOSE wrote: > Montreal certainly has a far better subway layout than toronto. I think >> their train service is actually better too, but I am not entirely sure >> about that. >> > Montreal's subway has some very nice design features but a couple of really awful ones. In terms of layout, the M?tro certainly covers more territory. But its blue line is barely more used than Toronto's sheppard line, even though it stops right near one of my childhood neighborhoods in Outremont. But its routes have also been even more politically driven (consider how much the green line curves west of Atwater to avoid touching Westmount, and for that matter any other traditionally Anglo areas). The commission also named a major transfer point after Lionel Groulx, a really nasty xenophobe and anti-semitic catholic priest. Things Montreal did right: - tunnels are deeper than stations, so trains get a gravity boost when leaving stations and a gravity slowdown when entering them. - Its transfers at Lionel-Groulx (and I think at Snowdon) are very clever, so that most people don't need to go up or down a floor to switch (I wish St. George could be done that way...) - From the very beginning the Metro went outside of Montr?al proper (Longueuil) and it now goes into Laval -- decades before the Toronto subway ventures out of 416. - Nicely designed stations (compared to Toronto's traditional bathroom-tile motif) Things Montr?al's subway does worse than Toronto's - really horrible bus-to-Metro and Metro-to-bus transfers, especially in the Montreal winter. The TTC really got this right, and at some newer stations (such as Kipling) it's REALLY fast. - rubber tires. The ride isn't really much better, but the system always smells of burning rubber and occasionally they explode - smaller cars and smaller tunnels -- much lower capacity than Toronto's - really, REALLY long exit corridors in some stations. Think of the tunnel that connects the two lines at Spadina, and some are longer than that. On the balance I like Toronto's system better. Uglier, but far more functional and efficient. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 21:00:34 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:00:34 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <20101027175135.GP12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> <20101027175135.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 27 October 2010 13:51, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Brilliance: GO Transit, easily one of the best suburban commuter rail > > systems on the continent > > It is absolutely awful. The line up through weston may become great now > that they are resignaling it (after buying it instead of leasing access > to the line), so that they can run trains more than every 30 minutes. > Now if they will run more frequent service and both ways throughout the > day, then it can start to be considered a good train system. As it is > it is probably the worst train system I have ever seen. > They work with what they have. Unlike in Europe and Japan, commuter rail here has always had to deal with limtations of working with and alongside freight-train lines. GO is trying to increase capacity to the Georgetown line to give that northwest service similar capacity and times to the lakeshore line. But neighborhood opposition in Weston has impeded progress. In any case, there are not trainfuls of commuters going from downtown to Markham in the morning, so there is bus service from Union station, but now that area is best served by GO bus service to Finch station, York University and Scarborough Centre (and will soon be complemented by a VIVA LRT on highway 7). It's nice to see GO taking advantage of highway 407 from Oshawa to Hamilton, as an alternative to going through downtown. In some cases, fares for service on that line are less than the 407 tolls alone (or so it seems). Its also in other areas -- payment methods, station upgrades, other intangibles and even car design -- where I think GO does very well. If it's the worst train system you've seen, you need to get out more ;-) - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 28 21:10:17 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:10:17 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> <20101027175135.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20101028211017.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 05:00:34PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > They work with what they have. Unlike in Europe and Japan, commuter rail > here has always had to deal with limtations of working with and alongside > freight-train lines. GO is trying to increase capacity to the Georgetown > line to give that northwest service similar capacity and times to the > lakeshore line. But neighborhood opposition in Weston has impeded progress. One would think the people in Weston would appreciate getting some decent service. > In any case, there are not trainfuls of commuters going from downtown to > Markham in the morning, so there is bus service from Union station, but now > that area is best served by GO bus service to Finch station, York University > and Scarborough Centre (and will soon be complemented by a VIVA LRT on > highway 7). It's nice to see GO taking advantage of highway 407 from Oshawa > to Hamilton, as an alternative to going through downtown. In some cases, > fares for service on that line are less than the 407 tolls alone (or so it > seems). And which decade can we expect VIVA to have an LRT? For years they have talked about dedicated bus lanes on highway 7, when did they suddenly start talking about LRTs? > Its also in other areas -- payment methods, station upgrades, other > intangibles and even car design -- where I think GO does very well. > > If it's the worst train system you've seen, you need to get out more ;-) At least montreal seems to run commuter trains without the issue of freight trains, and they run service both ways. GO is already running the trains back out for the next run in, why NOT carry passengers both ways? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From marthter-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 01:48:18 2010 From: marthter-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (marthter) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:48:18 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> <20101027175135.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CCA27E2.8050302@yahoo.ca> On 10-10-28 05:00 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > On 27 October 2010 13:51, Lennart Sorensen > > > wrote: > > > Brilliance: GO Transit, easily one of the best suburban commuter > rail > > systems on the continent > > It is absolutely awful. The line up through weston may become > great now > that they are resignaling it (after buying it instead of leasing > access > to the line), so that they can run trains more than every 30 minutes. > Now if they will run more frequent service and both ways > throughout the > day, then it can start to be considered a good train system. As it is > it is probably the worst train system I have ever seen. > > > They work with what they have. Unlike in Europe and Japan, commuter > rail here has always had to deal with limtations of working with and > alongside freight-train lines. GO is trying to increase capacity to > the Georgetown line to give that northwest service similar capacity > and times to the lakeshore line. But neighborhood opposition in Weston > has impeded progress. > > In any case, there are not trainfuls of commuters going from downtown > to Markham in the morning, so there is bus service from Union station, > but now that area is best served by GO bus service to Finch station, > York University and Scarborough Centre (and will soon be complemented > by a VIVA LRT on highway 7). It's nice to see GO taking advantage of > highway 407 from Oshawa to Hamilton, as an alternative to going > through downtown. In some cases, fares for service on that line are > less than the 407 tolls alone (or so it seems). > > Its also in other areas -- payment methods, station upgrades, other > intangibles and even car design -- where I think GO does very well. > There's one, PAYMENT METHODS, where the TTC is still in the 1950s. Try using a credit or debit card to buy a roll of tokens at a TTC collection booth... [game show sound effect] wah wah waaaah [/game show sound effect]. Sorry, no can do. Cash only. And try asking for a receipt for that. They'll give you a little slip from a pad of paper where the collector writes (illegibly) their employee number, the date, and the amount. Well anyway, you've woken them up from their snooze, so what do you expect. Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 12:51:23 2010 From: natzilla-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Renata Rocha) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 08:51:23 -0400 Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: <20101027045739.GA4222-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 00:57, William Park wrote: > 100km is 1 hour drive, which is nothing. ?You can drive to London and > back with the time you typically spend in grid-locked GTA commute. > Solution to traffic jam is reduction in population density, not more > public transit. THAT'S NOTHING 500km is a 1 hour flight. That means you can fly from YYZ to Montr?al in one hour. Think ahead, government should spend money in RENTAL JETS for those who commute daily between the two cities! -- Renata Rocha http://renata.org http://www.linkedin.com/in/renatarocha -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 13:04:25 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 09:04:25 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <20101028211017.GT12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> <20101027175135.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101028211017.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 28 October 2010 17:10, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > And which decade can we expect VIVA to have an LRT? For years they have > talked about dedicated bus lanes on highway 7, when did they suddenly > start talking about LRTs? > It's hardly a pipedream; construction on dedicatedhas already started on bus lanes on Highway 7 through Brampton and .Markham and is expected to finish in 2013. As for the LRT being sudden? Might be sudden to you. Not only is it real and long in the works, it's already funded. http://www.vivanext.com/light_rail Bus Rapid transit lines in Missisauga and Brampton are also anticipating upgrades from bus-rapid-transit to LRT service. http://www.mississauga.com/news/article/845836--council-endorses-lrt-on-hurontario At this rate the suburban ones will be done before Toronto's - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 13:16:14 2010 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 09:16:14 -0400 Subject: [OT] Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CCA27E2.8050302-FFYn/CNdgSA@public.gmane.org> References: <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <2E2BF38C-2344-4861-9F95-34562DD39A52@acm.org> <4CC83368.8050601@rogers.com> <20101027155311.GK12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CC84CE4.90901@the-wire.com> <20101027175135.GP12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4CCA27E2.8050302@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On 28 October 2010 21:48, marthter wrote: > There's one, PAYMENT METHODS, where the TTC is still in the 1950s. Try > using a credit or debit card to buy a roll of tokens at a TTC collection > booth... [game show sound effect] wah wah waaaah [/game show sound effect]. > Sorry, no can do. Cash only. And try asking for a receipt for that. > They'll give you a little slip from a pad of paper where the collector > writes (illegibly) their employee number, the date, and the amount. Well > anyway, you've woken them up from their snooze, so what do you expect. > > Guess what? GO Transit, York Region, Brampton and Mississauga Transit have all agreed on a common card that is already in use on lakeshore GO and is installed (but not yet functional) on the suburban buses. https://www.prestocard.ca/ The big delay has been in the TTC's unwillingness to go along with it, mainly thanks to the personal obsession of (outgoing) TTC Chair Giambrone with a competing project that the province said it would never fund. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/868552--ttc-slows-smart-card-decision-after-warning Everyone's hoping that a Giambrone-less TTC and different mood at city hall will clear the logjam. Well, I am. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 14:15:09 2010 From: fabio.fzero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Fabio FZero) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:15:09 -0400 Subject: Public Transit (was: today is the day) In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 08:51, Renata Rocha wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 00:57, William Park wrote: > >> 100km is 1 hour drive, which is nothing. ?You can drive to London and >> back with the time you typically spend in grid-locked GTA commute. >> Solution to traffic jam is reduction in population density, not more >> public transit. > > THAT'S NOTHING > > 500km is a 1 hour flight. That means you can fly from YYZ to Montr?al > in one hour. Think ahead, government should spend money in RENTAL JETS > for those who commute daily between the two cities! Ok, now imagine that... with CONCORDES! PROBLEM. FSCKING. SOLVED. - FZ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 14:57:40 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:57:40 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <4CCAE0E4.3060501@rogers.com> Fabio FZero wrote: > Ok, now imagine that... with CONCORDES! > Fine by me, though F-16s might be more suitable for commuters. You can avoid the public transit crowds that way. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 15:26:46 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:26:46 -0400 Subject: Wireless encryption In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCAE7B6.1030405@rogers.com> Giles Orr wrote: > I've done some research on this but haven't had any luck ... > > In the old days of "hubs" you could sniff pretty much anyone's network > traffic just by plugging into the hub. And the same thing is true of > unencrypted wireless traffic: just get your wireless card in > promiscuous mode and start logging. > > But now comes the question(s): if Alice and Bob are both > connected/associated to the same wireless router that uses WEP > encryption, can Bob see (sniff) Alice's traffic as clear text? > > How about with WPA, and WPA2? > > I encourage people to use SSL at all times anyway ... Blame Firesheep > for the questions. > > The encryption method doesn't matter. It's essentially the same as if you're plugged into an ethernet switch. Some WiFi gear can be configured to block communication directly between users. Back in the days when I was using WEP, I had my WiFi network outside of my firewall and could only reach my network by using OpenVPN or SSH. However, I'm now using WPA2 (with a 63 random character password*), which is very secure and have the WiFi connected directly to my home network. *Those random passwords can be obtained from www.grc.com. Click on Services > Perfect Passwords. I use the alpha-numeric passwords only, as I've found some equipment chokes on some of the other characters. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 15:36:51 2010 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:36:51 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CCAE0E4.3060501-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CCAE0E4.3060501@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:57 AM, James Knott wrote: > Fabio FZero wrote: >> >> Ok, now imagine that... with CONCORDES! >> > > Fine by me, though F-16s might be more suitable for commuters. ?You can > avoid the public transit crowds that way. ? ;-) Well, I could be happy with a MIG-29, faster than a F-16, and unlike the F-16, there are some MIG-29s (well, two) in private hands: www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.10/kirlin.html Talk about toys for big boys :-) . Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 15:40:12 2010 From: jmyshrall-v+ARZjKqHIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:40:12 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CCAE0E4.3060501-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CCAE0E4.3060501@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CCAEADC.2020208@yaknet.ca> On 29/10/10 10:57, James Knott wrote: > Fabio FZero wrote: >> Ok, now imagine that... with CONCORDES! > Fine by me, though F-16s might be more suitable for commuters. You > can avoid the public transit crowds that way. ;-) Why waste all that money on expensive runways. We need to use the new F-35 that can take off vertically and land vertically. http://www.jsf.mil/video/f35test/10-011C%20Highlights%20Video_ppt.wmv John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 15:43:16 2010 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:43:16 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <4CCAE0E4.3060501-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CCAE0E4.3060501@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:57 AM, James Knott wrote: > Fabio FZero wrote: >> >> Ok, now imagine that... with CONCORDES! >> > > Fine by me, though F-16s might be more suitable for commuters. ?You can > avoid the public transit crowds that way. ? ;-) Avoid? You can *eliminate* the crowds :-). I love the smell of napalm in the morning... Smells like... victory... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 16:06:56 2010 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:06:56 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CCAE0E4.3060501@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20101029160656.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:36:51AM -0400, Colin McGregor wrote: > Well, I could be happy with a MIG-29, faster than a F-16, and unlike > the F-16, there are some MIG-29s (well, two) in private hands: > > www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.10/kirlin.html > > Talk about toys for big boys :-) . I thought I read once that FedEx had a couple of F16s. Not sure if it was true or not or whether they still have them if it was. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ehsangh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 19:48:53 2010 From: ehsangh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ehsan Gharegozlo) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:48:53 -0400 Subject: Job opportunities Message-ID: Hi Folks, We have bunch of positions to recruit for in our organization including a Sr. Linux Admin within my team. Please take a look at the link below and feel free to forward it to anyone who might be interested. http://www.tenzing.com/careers/careers.asp If you have any question, please feel free to contact me. Cheers, Ehsan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 20:00:45 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:00:45 -0400 Subject: Public Transit In-Reply-To: <20101029160656.GU12911-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <4CC5D4F6.9090402@gmail.com> <20101025193130.GT12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20101026032716.GA4388@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CC66C98.80909@rogers.com> <20101027045739.GA4222@node1.opengeometry.net> <4CCAE0E4.3060501@rogers.com> <20101029160656.GU12911@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4CCB27ED.6050606@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I thought I read once that FedEx had a couple of F16s. Not sure if it > was true or not or whether they still have them if it was. > No, it's not true and yes, they still have them. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 29 20:57:14 2010 From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:57:14 -0400 Subject: OLPC on the Colbert Report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCB352A.7080800@ss.org> On 10/27/2010 02:36 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Monday's episode featured an interview with Nicholas Negroponte, head > of the One Laptop Per Child Project. > The interview clip can be found here: > http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-colbert-report/interviews-a-z/the-colbert-report---interviews-a/clip275903#clip275903 > > Not bad stuff. The highlight IMO was watching them both fling the > little laptops onto the floor to demonstrate their resiliancy. > > - Evan > Link seems to be off, this is the correct one. http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-colbert-report/interviews-a-z/the-colbert-report---interviews-a/clip275903#clip367184 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 30 02:04:21 2010 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wireless encryption In-Reply-To: <4CCAE7B6.1030405-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CCAE7B6.1030405@rogers.com> Message-ID: | From: James Knott | *Those random passwords can be obtained from www.grc.com. Click on | Services > Perfect Passwords. I use the alpha-numeric passwords only, | as I've found some equipment chokes on some of the other characters. Getting your secret passwords from someone else seems oxymoronic. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 30 03:02:19 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:02:19 -0400 Subject: Wireless encryption In-Reply-To: References: <4CCAE7B6.1030405@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CCB8ABB.7030200@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: James Knott > > | *Those random passwords can be obtained from www.grc.com. Click on > | Services> Perfect Passwords. I use the alpha-numeric passwords only, > | as I've found some equipment chokes on some of the other characters. > > Getting your secret passwords from someone else seems oxymoronic. > > Well, they'd have to know where the WiFi network is and it's SSID to use a password. This is of course assuming they bother to save it. According to their info they don't and they also use HTTPS and try to ensure the password is not cached anywhere. I suppose that if you're really worried, you can use another location, such as a library or coffee shop, to disguise where you'd be using that password. Or perhaps, as they suggest, you could rearrange it. Assume you found a key on the street, with no identification. Would you know what it unlocked? Same with a WiFi password, if you don't know where it's used. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 30 05:14:40 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 01:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? Message-ID: A: Because DEC 25 = OCT 31 Ok how many of you confirmed the result? :) Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 30 12:15:15 2010 From: instantkamera-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (aaron d) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:15:15 -0400 Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did. dec(imal) 25 = 2 X 10 + 5 X 1 oct(al) 31 = 3 X 8 + 1 X 1 = 25 old joke :) On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 1:14 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > A: Because DEC 25 = OCT 31 > > Ok how many of you confirmed the result? :) > > Rob > > -- > Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 > IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) > Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com > Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest ( > http://spi-inc.org/) > Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 30 12:17:05 2010 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 16:17:05 +0400 Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCC0CC1.9000601@gmail.com> I can not mix up Christmas and Halloween. So why is the question? Very silly. Halloween is a sort of pagan tradition taken of from northern tribes from Europe. In Poland, at almost the same time there is tradition of visiting graves of these of us whom we will never see again. Christmas in Polish tradition starts in the evening of 24th of December. This remains in my memory as the most wonderful day of the year. Entire family, if only possible, gathers together behind the table. There is a place left at the table to that one who could not come, or to anyone who might wish to come, even though a homeless. On 30/10/10 09:14 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > A: Because DEC 25 = OCT 31 > > Ok how many of you confirmed the result? :) > > Rob > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 30 19:54:29 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:54:29 -0400 Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? In-Reply-To: <4CCC0CC1.9000601-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4CCC0CC1.9000601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CCC77F5.3080703@rogers.com> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Christmas in Polish tradition starts in the evening of 24th of December. Christmas was also a Celtic pagan event that was hijacked by Christian pagans. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 31 02:48:06 2010 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:48:06 -0400 Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? In-Reply-To: <4CCC77F5.3080703-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4CCC0CC1.9000601@gmail.com> <4CCC77F5.3080703@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:54 PM, James Knott wrote: > Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >> >> Christmas in Polish tradition starts in the evening of 24th of December. > > Christmas was also a Celtic pagan event that was hijacked by Christian > pagans. > No the date of Christmas was most likely based on the Roman Celibration of the Winter Solistice. It was Holloween which was based on old celtic rituals. Though the date is based on the All Saint's Day. -- Mark Lane -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 31 03:15:27 2010 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 23:15:27 -0400 Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? In-Reply-To: References: <4CCC0CC1.9000601@gmail.com> <4CCC77F5.3080703@rogers.com> Message-ID: The date for the 25th of December to celebrate Xmas came from the birth of Sol Invictus. Michael P.S. Still not home, still in need of a laptop. On Oct 30, 2010 10:48 PM, "Mark Lane" wrote: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:54 PM, James Knott wrote: > Zbigniew Koziol wrote... No the date of Christmas was most likely based on the Roman Celibration of the Winter Solistice. It was Holloween which was based on old celtic rituals. Though the date is based on the All Saint's Day. -- Mark Lane -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 31 04:38:40 2010 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 00:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Oct 2010, aaron d wrote: > I did. > > dec(imal) 25 = 2 X 10 + 5 X 1 > > oct(al) 31 = 3 X 8 + 1 X 1 = 25 > > old joke :) Indeed :) So I was reflecting on how likely it was that this joke would pan out and I've decided it isn't as unlikely as it might first seem. October was the 8th months and December the 10th Month under older incarnations of the calendar and both Christmas and Halloween were deliberately put at or near the end of months so in hindsight it isn't so unlikely that the numbers lined up to make this joke. Cheers, Rob -- Email: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Contributing member of Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 31 13:47:29 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:47:29 -0400 Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? In-Reply-To: References: <4CCC0CC1.9000601@gmail.com> <4CCC77F5.3080703@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4CCD7371.6080305@rogers.com> Mark Lane wrote: > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:54 PM, James Knott wrote: > >> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >> >>> Christmas in Polish tradition starts in the evening of 24th of December. >>> >> Christmas was also a Celtic pagan event that was hijacked by Christian >> pagans. >> >> > No the date of Christmas was most likely based on the Roman > Celibration of the Winter Solistice. > > It was Holloween which was based on old celtic rituals. Though the > date is based on the All Saint's Day. > Either way, may of the Christian pagan festivals have been hijacked from older ones. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 31 13:48:55 2010 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:48:55 -0400 Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCD73C7.7080407@rogers.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > so in hindsight it isn't so unlikely that the numbers lined up to make > this joke. The computer gods have a sense of humour. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 31 14:47:07 2010 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:47:07 -0400 Subject: Q: Why do programmers always get Christmas and Halloween mixed up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCD816B.3030301@the-wire.com> On 10-10-31 12:38 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Sat, 30 Oct 2010, aaron d wrote: > >> I did. >> >> dec(imal) 25 = 2 X 10 + 5 X 1 >> >> oct(al) 31 = 3 X 8 + 1 X 1 = 25 >> >> old joke :) > > Indeed :) > > So I was reflecting on how likely it was that this joke would pan out > and I've decided it isn't as unlikely as it might first seem. > > October was the 8th months and December the 10th Month under older > incarnations of the calendar and both Christmas and Halloween were > deliberately put at or near the end of months so in hindsight it isn't > so unlikely that the numbers lined up to make this joke. Once upon a time, (ahh .. the old days) I got to troll alt.folklore computers with a variation on this.. I could have done it a tad better had I known about the sdate command, and the true reason that Sept. 34 will never come again. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 31 19:03:39 2010 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:03:39 -0400 Subject: Importing Outlook PST files? Message-ID: <20101031190339.GA11504@waltdnes.org> Are there any simple converters that will import Outlook PST files into qmail or mbox format? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ss-tWm8UfAypx3iB9QmIjCX8w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 31 19:06:11 2010 From: ss-tWm8UfAypx3iB9QmIjCX8w at public.gmane.org (Sadiq Saif) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:06:11 -0400 Subject: Importing Outlook PST files? In-Reply-To: <20101031190339.GA11504-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20101031190339.GA11504@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4CCDBE23.8080105@sadiqs.info> On 10-10-31 03:03 PM, Walter Dnes wrote: > Are there any simple converters that will import Outlook PST files > into qmail or mbox format? > Depends, which version of Outlook is this? On a quick Google search I have found this: http://www.five-ten-sg.com/libpst/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 31 19:38:52 2010 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:38:52 -0800 Subject: Importing Outlook PST files? In-Reply-To: References: <20101031190339.GA11504@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: Usually what I've done is add a secondary IMAP account and drag+drop folders from the old outlook one. Doesn't scale well, but ok if you're just doing a few users... On 2010-10-31 12:02 PM, "Walter Dnes" wrote: Are there any simple converters that will import Outlook PST files into qmail or mbox format? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: