From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 02:39:58 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:39:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Google Wave Message-ID: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Anyone know about this? Sounds cool. http://mashable.com/2009/09/29/google-wave-the-wait-is-almost-over/ -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 03:33:14 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:33:14 -0500 Subject: OT: Google Wave In-Reply-To: <4AC4167E.6090000-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: You really want to see the preview video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_UyVmITiYQ If this technology is half as good as it's made out to be, it will be a real game changer. It seems to integrate the best of IM, wiki, email and collaborative products and does each better while integrating with social media like FB and blogs. With history, so that you can replay to see how a wave evolved (including selective replay of only certain actors, IIRC. I can see it being a threat even to the mighty SharePoint (of course, being Google, it has great search built in from scratch). Plus it is an open standard and there is/will be a reference implementation from Google (open source/free software, I believe). Regards, Colin On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:39 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Anyone know about this? Sounds cool. > > http://mashable.com/2009/09/29/google-wave-the-wait-is-almost-over/ > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > > http://DevMentor.org > Do Good ~ Share Freely > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 03:33:10 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:33:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Google Wave In-Reply-To: <4AC4167E.6090000-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570909302033q29f4b7f3r37487379ff54f7e7@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 22:39, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Anyone know about this? Sounds cool. > > http://mashable.com/2009/09/29/google-wave-the-wait-is-almost-over/ > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > It's supposed to go into Beta today, I applied a long time ago and again recently, and have not been contacted at all...so I have a feeling I'll have to wait for final release to play around with it. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 09:30:14 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mount same ext3 filesystem in 2 places... at the same time In-Reply-To: <1389.1254272289@localhost> References: <1389.1254272289@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Anton Verevkin wrote: > William, I would not be that sure about that. I've just tried such > double-mount on my Debian system and it has mounted silently, with not > even a single warning message. That's because 2 different concepts are being confused here. I'll cover them seperately. Anton did go in to this a bit but I think it will help to cover it like this: Q1) Can one filesystem be mounted multiple times on a single system? A1) On modern Linux systems yes. Not all modern OSes support this feature. On Linux this is known as 'bind mounting'. Q2) Can one filesystem be mounted on two different directly connected systems? A2) Read-only, yes. For write access the filesystem needs to be a 'clustered filesystem'. I covered this in more detail in another post. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy http://www.practicalsysadmin.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 11:59:16 2009 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 07:59:16 -0400 Subject: Mount same ext3 filesystem in 2 places... at the same time In-Reply-To: References: <1389.1254272289@localhost> Message-ID: Thank you for the excellent responses. Interestingly, when I looked in the directory listing of /home2, there was only one userhome there, and /home had the rest (as I expected). I have just recently run across this "bind mounting" you referred to in a set of instructions for setting up NFS v4 on our team's machines. We are presently using GPFS as a clustered filesystem here (IBM... surprise, surprise), and so it is interesting to see what else is our there in terms of clustered filesystems. JohnM(onkey) On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Anton Verevkin wrote: > > William, I would not be that sure about that. I've just tried such >> double-mount on my Debian system and it has mounted silently, with not even >> a single warning message. >> > > That's because 2 different concepts are being confused here. I'll cover > them seperately. Anton did go in to this a bit but I think it will help to > cover it like this: > > Q1) Can one filesystem be mounted multiple times on a single system? > > A1) On modern Linux systems yes. Not all modern OSes support this feature. > On Linux this is known as 'bind mounting'. > > Q2) Can one filesystem be mounted on two different directly connected > systems? > > A2) Read-only, yes. For write access the filesystem needs to be a > 'clustered filesystem'. I covered this in more detail in another post. > > Cheers, > > Rob > > -- > I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy > http://www.practicalsysadmin.com > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 14:01:27 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 10:01:27 -0400 Subject: OT: Google Wave In-Reply-To: References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_UyVmITiYQ Thanks for the link. Lovely > > If this technology is half as good as it's made out to be, it will be a real > game changer. It seems to integrate the best of IM, wiki, email and > collaborative products and does each better while integrating with social > media like FB and blogs. With history, so that you can replay to see how a > wave evolved (including selective replay of only certain actors, IIRC. It reasonable to believe it will be good. Have seem a couple of article of it and its hard to find any that is critical of it. That may imply its either very good or they have been so effective at selecting the preview people that all are google admirers and can never bring themselves to criticize google. I think the later is very unlikely. Or may be, I have not looked hard enough for a critical writer. > > I can see it being a threat even to the mighty SharePoint (of course, being > Google, it has great search built in from scratch). Plus it is an open > standard and there is/will be a reference implementation from Google (open > source/free software, I believe). > Hmm, have never used SharePoint, but heard from a lot of people that it now has a competitor. Good for everyone, when we have competition The really nice side effects should this take off is, it will leave us with html5 compatible browsers. I mean, not just firefox 3.5, but even EI6. That would one huge step in killing flash. Long to see that day. > Regards, Colin > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:39 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> >> Anyone know about this? Sounds cool. >> >> http://mashable.com/2009/09/29/google-wave-the-wait-is-almost-over/ >> >> -- >> Kind Regards, >> Rajinder Yadav >> >> http://DevMentor.org >> Do Good ~ Share Freely >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 14:07:02 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 10:07:02 -0400 Subject: postgresql replication Message-ID: <4AC4B786.4040702@utoronto.ca> I'm looking at setting up a replication system for a number of disparate postgresql databases (multiple databases on multiple machines). Mostly I just want ease of backups without taking down the live databases. Failover isn't a concern at the moment. I've looked around and am less sure of what would be the ideal than when I started e.g. a number of the tools on this page link to websites that are down or don't seem to exist anymore.. http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Replication,_Clustering,_and_Connection_Pooling I was thinking pgcluster or slony-1 initially, but both sites are out of commission. Checking on pgforge it looks like slony-1 last had a release in 2006. But pgcluster seems like it requires a modified build of postgresql. So Bucardo is at the top of my list now, but documentation seems a bit scarce. They do have a git repository with active development though.. Anyone have thoughts about postgresql replication (backup slaves specifically) that they might be willing to share? Thanks, Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 14:11:07 2009 From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 07:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: terminalcast Message-ID: <182133.8212.qm@web65408.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi, I found this site that may be useful for showing or teaching Linux and Linux apps commands etc: http://terminalcast.com/ --------------------- Fernando Duran http://www.fduran.com __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer? 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 14:56:14 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 10:56:14 -0400 Subject: postgresql replication In-Reply-To: <4AC4B786.4040702-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC4B786.4040702@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20091001105614.d6dd58d0.tleslie@tcn.net> check out enterpriseDB -tl On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 10:07:02 -0400 Jamon Camisso wrote: > I'm looking at setting up a replication system for a number of disparate > postgresql databases (multiple databases on multiple machines). Mostly I > just want ease of backups without taking down the live databases. > Failover isn't a concern at the moment. > > I've looked around and am less sure of what would be the ideal than when > I started e.g. a number of the tools on this page link to websites that > are down or don't seem to exist anymore.. > http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Replication,_Clustering,_and_Connection_Pooling > > I was thinking pgcluster or slony-1 initially, but both sites are out of > commission. Checking on pgforge it looks like slony-1 last had a release > in 2006. But pgcluster seems like it requires a modified build of > postgresql. > > So Bucardo is at the top of my list now, but documentation seems a bit > scarce. They do have a git repository with active development though.. > > Anyone have thoughts about postgresql replication (backup slaves > specifically) that they might be willing to share? > > Thanks, Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 16:50:50 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 12:50:50 -0400 Subject: Lost sound card Message-ID: <20091001165050.GA8204@yam.witteman.ca> Today I rebooted, and on boot a message it complained about not being able to register intel-hda (sound card onboard). I would like to try again, as it worked with this kernel as recently as a few hours ago. I tried to modprobe snd, which should do something, but all I get is a Warning message: WARNING: All config files need .conf: /etc/modprobe.d/nvidia-kernel-nkc, it will be ignored in a future release. I'd really like sound to work on this machine - any have any suggestions? Thanks. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 17:18:22 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 13:18:22 -0400 Subject: OT: Google Wave In-Reply-To: References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:01 AM, William Muriithi wrote: > It reasonable to believe it will be good. Have seem a couple of > article of it and its hard to find any that is critical of it. That > may imply its either very good or they have been so effective at > selecting the preview people that all are google admirers and can > never bring themselves to criticize google. I think the later is very > unlikely. ?Or may be, I have not looked hard enough for a critical > writer. I would think it rather essential for there to be people (particularly in the "free software community") to make sure they are frequently making use of server instances that *aren't* operated by Google; that helps encourage there *not* to be shenanigans. Sort of the same way that the very existence of Debian (which is "forcibly free") encourages folks like Red Hat (who have quite often been the targets of pretty wildly paranoid suspicions over the years) to consistently listen to their "better angels." That is, because migrating to Debian is a plausible option, this discourages makers of other distributions from playing overly silly proprietary games. It's similarly important that "free servers" ("free" in the sense of "free from Google's influence") be usable/viable... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Joan Crawford - "I, Joan Crawford, I believe in the dollar. Everything I earn, I spend." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/joan_crawford.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 17:31:35 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 13:31:35 -0400 Subject: terminalcast In-Reply-To: <182133.8212.qm-hghbPWfArVb5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <182133.8212.qm@web65408.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Fernando Duran wrote: > Hi, > > I found this site that may be useful for showing or teaching Linux and Linux apps commands etc: http://terminalcast.com/ Thanks for sharing but I can't seem to play any of the terminalcast videos at work on IE 8? I am also behind a firewall, wonder if that might be the case, but when I click play I see an error message on the state pane saying, "error on page". > --------------------- > Fernando Duran > http://www.fduran.com -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav May the { source } be with you ! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 19:41:47 2009 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 15:41:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Google Wave In-Reply-To: References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: Google is releasing the code and protocol open source and Wave has the ability to work over XMPP so your could have your own Wave that can still interact with Google's. http://www.waveprotocol.org/ http://code.google.com/p/wave-protocol/ One interesting thing in the at the Google I/O conference is that they already have a client that doesn't require the web browser but can work on a *nix console. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > I would think it rather essential for there to be people (particularly > in the "free software community") to make sure they are frequently > making use of server instances that *aren't* operated by Google; that > helps encourage there *not* to be shenanigans. > > Sort of the same way that the very existence of Debian (which is > "forcibly free") encourages folks like Red Hat (who have quite often > been the targets of pretty wildly paranoid suspicions over the years) > to consistently listen to their "better angels." ?That is, because > migrating to Debian is a plausible option, this discourages makers of > other distributions from playing overly silly proprietary games. > > It's similarly important that "free servers" ("free" in the sense of > "free from Google's influence") be usable/viable... -- Myles Braithwaite me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 19:54:47 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 15:54:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Google Wave In-Reply-To: References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Myles Braithwaite wrote: > Google is releasing the code and protocol open source and Wave has the > ability to work over > XMPP so your could have your own Wave that can still interact with Google's. > > http://www.waveprotocol.org/ > http://code.google.com/p/wave-protocol/ > > One interesting thing in the at the Google I/O conference is that they > already have a client that > doesn't require the web browser but can work on a *nix console. This is all very nice, wondering how I can make use for the wave APIs for my website ideas. I think I might want to be ahead of the curve on understanding and most of all applying it. So much on my plate as of late =( ... I am complete with Ruby, now onto Rails and then Wave API? Hope they provide a Ruby interface! > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: >> I would think it rather essential for there to be people (particularly >> in the "free software community") to make sure they are frequently >> making use of server instances that *aren't* operated by Google; that >> helps encourage there *not* to be shenanigans. >> >> Sort of the same way that the very existence of Debian (which is >> "forcibly free") encourages folks like Red Hat (who have quite often >> been the targets of pretty wildly paranoid suspicions over the years) >> to consistently listen to their "better angels." ?That is, because >> migrating to Debian is a plausible option, this discourages makers of >> other distributions from playing overly silly proprietary games. >> >> It's similarly important that "free servers" ("free" in the sense of >> "free from Google's influence") be usable/viable... > > -- > Myles Braithwaite > me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org > http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav May the { source } be with you ! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 19:59:49 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 15:59:49 -0400 Subject: OT: Google Wave In-Reply-To: References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just asking, if anyone manages to get a Wave account please add me =) ... Thanks!!! On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Myles Braithwaite > wrote: >> Google is releasing the code and protocol open source and Wave has the >> ability to work over >> XMPP so your could have your own Wave that can still interact with Google's. >> >> http://www.waveprotocol.org/ >> http://code.google.com/p/wave-protocol/ >> >> One interesting thing in the at the Google I/O conference is that they >> already have a client that >> doesn't require the web browser but can work on a *nix console. > > This is all very nice, wondering how I can make use for the wave APIs > for my website ideas. > > I think I might want to be ahead of the curve on understanding and > most of all applying it. So much on my plate as of late =( ... I am > complete with Ruby, now onto Rails and then Wave API? Hope they > provide a Ruby interface! > >> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: >>> I would think it rather essential for there to be people (particularly >>> in the "free software community") to make sure they are frequently >>> making use of server instances that *aren't* operated by Google; that >>> helps encourage there *not* to be shenanigans. >>> >>> Sort of the same way that the very existence of Debian (which is >>> "forcibly free") encourages folks like Red Hat (who have quite often >>> been the targets of pretty wildly paranoid suspicions over the years) >>> to consistently listen to their "better angels." ?That is, because >>> migrating to Debian is a plausible option, this discourages makers of >>> other distributions from playing overly silly proprietary games. >>> >>> It's similarly important that "free servers" ("free" in the sense of >>> "free from Google's influence") be usable/viable... >> >> -- >> Myles Braithwaite >> me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org >> http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > > May the { source } be with you ! > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://devmentor.org Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 21:01:42 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:01:42 -0400 Subject: postgresql replication In-Reply-To: <4AC4B786.4040702-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC4B786.4040702@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <491f66a50910011401u19c0a8d5w9d444c7d08a98c1c@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > I'm looking at setting up a replication system for a number of disparate > postgresql databases (multiple databases on multiple machines). Mostly I > just want ease of backups without taking down the live databases. Failover > isn't a concern at the moment. > > I've looked around and am less sure of what would be the ideal than when I > started e.g. a number of the tools on this page link to websites that are > down or don't seem to exist anymore.. > http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Replication,_Clustering,_and_Connection_Pooling > > I was thinking pgcluster or slony-1 initially, but both sites are out of > commission. Checking on pgforge it looks like slony-1 last had a release in > 2006. But pgcluster seems like it requires a modified build of postgresql. > > So Bucardo is at the top of my list now, but documentation seems a bit > scarce. They do have a git repository with active development though.. > > Anyone have thoughts about postgresql replication (backup slaves > specifically) that they might be willing to share? > > Yes, use log shipping. Dave > Thanks, Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 21:37:51 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:37:51 -0400 Subject: terminalcast In-Reply-To: References: <182133.8212.qm@web65408.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280910011437q3b24f928s9e1a7175ef175cb9@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/1 Rajinder Yadav : > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Fernando Duran wrote: >> I found this site that may be useful for showing or teaching Linux and Linux apps commands etc: http://terminalcast.com/ > > Thanks for sharing but I can't seem to play any of the terminalcast > videos at work on IE 8? I am also behind a firewall, wonder if that > might be the case, but when I click play I see an error message on the > state pane saying, "error on page". I had different problems: it works fairly well in FF3, but in IE7 I get fine audio and no text at all. "Pause" works in both (although only affecting sound in IE because there is no text) but "Stop" does nothing. I found the sound was very good, but the keystrokes were substantially delayed from the audio (you can hear him hitting keys, it sounds like he uses an IBM Model M :-) and quite jumpy. So his description doesn't fit with what's going on on screen. It's an interesting idea, but doesn't seem to be quite "there" yet. I'm also not sure how much it would get used in a world as graphically driven as ours when it locks you into using only stuff that runs inside a modified rxvt? Hmm - who wants to do the audio tutorials for configuring Apache? How about PostgreSQL? -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 1 21:52:20 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:52:20 -0400 Subject: postgresql replication In-Reply-To: <4AC4B786.4040702-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC4B786.4040702@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > I was thinking pgcluster or slony-1 initially, but both sites are out of > commission. Checking on pgforge it looks like slony-1 last had a release in > 2006. But pgcluster seems like it requires a modified build of postgresql. You might want to see http://slony.info; that has Rather More Recent information about Slony-I... There are commits to CVS on a reasonably regular basis: http://lists.slony.info/pipermail/slony1-commit/ And the last releases were in May... I've been sitting on 1.2.17/2.0.3 for a while; probably should try to get those releases out shortly. But you mayn't necessarily want to use either Slony-I or Bucardo; if what you need is purely for backup, then it's quite possible that the "standby" features added in 8.0 (and improving in successors) may be adequate. (AKA "WAL shipping"/"Log shipping") -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Charles de Gaulle - "The better I get to know men, the more I find myself loving dogs." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/c/charles_de_gaulle.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 01:06:29 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 21:06:29 -0400 Subject: Openldap help Message-ID: <20091002010629.GA23778@watson-wilon.ca> LDAP is not my strong point. I'm trying to setup an address book using Openldap (debian stable). It seems the schema that I chose does not allow for a country address field. I can't seem to find a suitable one that does. Is there away around this trouble? ldif file dn: ou=people,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: organizationalUnit description: address book ou: people dn: cn=Neil Watson,ou=people,dc=example,dc=com objectClass: top objectClass: person objectClass: organizationalPerson objectClass: inetOrgPerson cn: Neil Watson sn: Watson gn: Neil mail: neil-hcDgGtZH8xNBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org street: 1 lane street l: Springfield st: nowhere postalCode: H0H0H0 telephoneNumber: 555-555-5555 homePhone: 555-555-5555 c: CA Running ldapadd produces ldap_add: Object class violation (65) additional info: attribute 'c' not allowed If I remove the 'c:' there are no errors. -- Neil Watson Linux/UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rich+tlug-CncV1Atd1VQsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 14:10:02 2009 From: rich+tlug-CncV1Atd1VQsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Rich Lafferty) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:10:02 -0400 Subject: FreshBooks is looking for a system administrator! Message-ID: <4AC609BA.9040203@lafferty.ca> Hey folks, I work at FreshBooks (http://www.freshbooks.com/) and I've recently started looking for another system administrator here. We've been growing like a weed and there's lots of work to do so it's time to add to the team. The description's below -- if you'd like it pretty-printed or if you want to pass it around to others, you can find it at http://www.freshbooks.com/careers/system-administrator.php Please send expressions of interest to careers-ShEmRV+3uf9SwrhanM7KvQ at public.gmane.org, not to me directly. -Rich ---------------------------------------------------------- System Administrator (Linux) The success of FreshBooks is completely dependent on a fast and reliable infrastructure. If you're a well-rounded sysadmin with web application chops, we'd like you to help us continue to exceed our customers' expectations. You will: Join in the responsibility for maintaining our good reputation for availability, performance, and security. You will work with our lead system administrator and the rest of the team here to learn our current architecture and become a key contributor to developing and implementing our technical plan for growth. You'll also share responsibility for our internal IT needs, office network, development systems, users' desktops, and whatever else we might be doing at the time. It does get busy around here, so you'll need plenty of energy! We need you to have: * 5-7 years of Linux system administration experience (SAGE Level III), preferably with Red Hat or Ubuntu Linux * Experience building or maintaining a high-performance, highly-available Linux/Apache/MySQL environment * Thorough understanding of networking concepts and firewalls * Programming experience in sh, and in a dynamic language like PHP or Perl * Hands-on experience implementing secure servers and networks * Experience maintaining Windows or OS X desktops * Demonstrated proficiency communicating with users, developers, and upper management * Attention to detail, ability to work without close supervision and a passion for professional system administration practice We hope you have: * A working knowledge of Web 2.0 * Familiarity with configuration management and source control systems * Experience with PCI DSS compliance * Experience with office phone systems * Informed tastes in coffee and beer * Excellent writing skills, and a hankering to blog This position requires after-hours and holiday on-call support. How to apply: Send your resume to careers-ShEmRV+3uf8X1ozpZ4Kgfw at public.gmane.org Please send your resume and cover letter along to us at careers-ShEmRV+3uf8X1ozpZ4Kgfw at public.gmane.org We?d love to hear from you! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 06:44:30 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 02:44:30 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice Message-ID: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> I upgraded my system recently to Fedora Core 11. I have just discovered that my Open Office is not working. Upon further hacking, I have discovered that it does work on accounts other than mine. I have found a couple of .openoffice directories and I deleted them, but this is having no effect. Does anybody know what directories are controlling Open Office? -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 14:35:09 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:35:09 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> How can you have a COUPLE .openoffice directories? I've had similar problems at times and deleting the .openoffice directory has always resolved it. What sorts of errors/behaviour are you getting? Are you sure it isn't already running and simply not responding? You night need to kill it first or relogin/reboot. cheers, darryl Howard Gibson wrote: > I upgraded my system recently to Fedora Core 11. I have just > discovered that my Open Office is not working. Upon further hacking, > I have discovered that it does work on accounts other than mine. I > have found a couple of .openoffice directories and I deleted them, > but this is having no effect. > > Does anybody know what directories are controlling Open Office? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 14:42:33 2009 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:42:33 -0300 Subject: OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1089a0320910020742j4ed12cbev2d4eb4214c07705f@mail.gmail.com> Couple of .openoffice on you home? How could it be possible? With the same name? Try to paste: $ ls -lh ~/ | grep openoffice Let me check the directories and permissions. Remove the directorie, should resolve your problem. I can't understand what's goin on... --- - ?v? Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha / Kalib - /(_)\ ITIL V3 Foundation Certified | Certified Scrum Master - ^ ^ Usu?rio Linux #407564 / Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 - GNU-Linux - Livre, Poderoso e Seguro - TUX-CE Member - www.tux-ce.org - Archlinux-br Developer Team - http://archlinux-br.org - KDE Brasil Member - TLUG Member - Toronto Linux User Group - http://www.marcelocavalcante.net On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 3:44 AM, Howard Gibson wrote: > I upgraded my system recently to Fedora Core 11. I have just discovered > that my Open Office is not working. Upon further hacking, I have discovered > that it does work on accounts other than mine. I have found a couple of > .openoffice directories and I deleted them, but this is having no effect. > > Does anybody know what directories are controlling Open Office? > > -- > Howard Gibson > hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org > howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org > http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 14:46:39 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 07:46:39 -0700 Subject: Lost sound card In-Reply-To: <20091001165050.GA8204-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20091001165050.GA8204@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0910020746x7a4baddfrf9e1d354613b28ac@mail.gmail.com> I used to work? Did it load an updated kernel after the reboot? On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:50 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > Today I rebooted, and on boot a message it complained about not being > able to register intel-hda (sound card onboard). ?I would like to try > again, as it worked with this kernel as recently as a few hours ago. > > I tried to modprobe snd, which should do something, but all I get is a > Warning message: > > WARNING: All config files need .conf: /etc/modprobe.d/nvidia-kernel-nkc, > it will be ignored in a future release. > > I'd really like sound to work on this machine - any have any > suggestions? ?Thanks. > -- > > yours, > > William > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFKxN3qHQtmiuz+KT8RAtqjAKCQx8vZ+sy2r1K14d7N9Beq7yNL2QCglIpg > o70qUv9lMiMvktdAZqhEYzs= > =j7G7 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (778) 890-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 15:31:25 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:31:25 -0400 Subject: Lost sound card In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0910020746x7a4baddfrf9e1d354613b28ac-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091001165050.GA8204@yam.witteman.ca> <3a97ef0910020746x7a4baddfrf9e1d354613b28ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091002153125.GA14603@yam.witteman.ca> On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 07:46:39AM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote: >I used to work? Did it load an updated kernel after the reboot? Yes, it used to work, and with the same kernel too. Something must have changed with boot order, because when udev starts up it barfs complaining about not being able to initialize the card. I have found a fix, at least to some degree - "alsa reload" seems to trigger a reinitialization and then the sound works again. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 15:54:59 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:54:59 -0400 Subject: Lost sound card In-Reply-To: <20091001165050.GA8204-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20091001165050.GA8204@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20091002155459.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 12:50:50PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > Today I rebooted, and on boot a message it complained about not being > able to register intel-hda (sound card onboard). I would like to try > again, as it worked with this kernel as recently as a few hours ago. > > I tried to modprobe snd, which should do something, but all I get is a > Warning message: > > WARNING: All config files need .conf: /etc/modprobe.d/nvidia-kernel-nkc, > it will be ignored in a future release. Ignore that. Means nothing. Just modprobe being very noisy. > I'd really like sound to work on this machine - any have any > suggestions? Thanks. Also modprobe snd does nothing interesting, it just loads the central snd module. You have to load the chip specific module to get anything interesting to happen, which would be snd-hda-intel. Check /proc/asound/cards Check dmesg. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 16:25:40 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 12:25:40 -0400 Subject: Lost sound card In-Reply-To: <20091002155459.GA26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091001165050.GA8204@yam.witteman.ca> <20091002155459.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091002162540.GA18120@yam.witteman.ca> On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 11:54:59AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 12:50:50PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >> Today I rebooted, and on boot a message it complained about not being >> able to register intel-hda (sound card onboard). I would like to try >> again, as it worked with this kernel as recently as a few hours ago. >Ignore that. Means nothing. Just modprobe being very noisy. > >> I'd really like sound to work on this machine - any have any >> suggestions? Thanks. > >Also modprobe snd does nothing interesting, it just loads the central >snd module. You have to load the chip specific module to get anything >interesting to happen, which would be snd-hda-intel. I tried that too - no dice. >Check /proc/asound/cards Once I fire up "alsa reload" I get two entries, one for the Intel chip and one for the Logitech QuickCam 9000 Pro (which is "works out of the box" webcam, BTW). >Check dmesg. Here are the messages relating to the failure to load the sound card: [ 9.239197] cannot find the slot for index 0 (range 0-0), error: -16 [ 9.239231] hda-intel: Error creating card! [ 9.239293] HDA Intel: probe of 0000:00:10.1 failed with error -16 -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 17:10:26 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:10:26 -0400 Subject: command prompter Message-ID: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> Greetings, I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the man page. Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? Nothing applicable jumped out at me from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command prompter. If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe it should? If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an example of what it might do for you. Cheers, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 17:34:47 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 13:34:47 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0910021034m4016d825w251d19b62009787a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Terrence Enger wrote: > Greetings, > > I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves > of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry > panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the > man page. > > Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? ?Nothing applicable jumped out at me > from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command > prompter. > > If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe > it should? ?If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an > example of what it might do for you. Hi Terry, I'm curious enough to ask for an example. I'm also curious as to which existing platform and tool you're referring to. TIA, - Scott. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 17:41:17 2009 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 13:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > Greetings, > > I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves > of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry > panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the > man page. > > Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? Nothing applicable jumped out at me > from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command > prompter. > > If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe > it should? If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an > example of what it might do for you. You could do it with bash's completion functions. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 18:34:04 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 14:34:04 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0910021034m4016d825w251d19b62009787a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <99a6c38f0910021034m4016d825w251d19b62009787a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1254508444.5663.30.camel@cougar-hardy> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 13:34 -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Terrence Enger wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves > > of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry > > panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the > > man page. > > > > Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? Nothing applicable jumped out at me > > from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command > > prompter. > > > > If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe > > it should? If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an > > example of what it might do for you. > > Hi Terry, > > I'm curious enough to ask for an example. I'll go to work on a mock-up. > I'm also curious as to > which existing platform and tool you're referring to. The platform in question is the IBM i or AS/400 or whatever its nom-du-jour happens to be, and the tool is "command definition". In that evironment, I have a positive fetish for creating command definitions. The AS/400 command definition is beautifully integrated into the system, but that makes it not a good example to follow closely. Still, there may be good lessons. Cheers, Terry. > > TIA, > - Scott. > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 18:38:16 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 14:38:16 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: <1254508696.5663.36.camel@cougar-hardy> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 13:41 -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves > > of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry > > panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the > > man page. > > > > Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? Nothing applicable jumped out at me > > from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command > > prompter. > > > > If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe > > it should? If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an > > example of what it might do for you. > > You could do it with bash's completion functions. > Does that know anything about the paramaters needed for particular commands. For example, it is not long since I went to `man find` for a reminder that I wanted to specify argument -wholename instead of -name, the latter being what my fingers unhelpfully remembered. Cheers, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 18:57:14 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 14:57:14 -0400 Subject: OT: Google Wave In-Reply-To: References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: Afternoon Christopher > > I would think it rather essential for there to be people (particularly > in the "free software community") to make sure they are frequently > making use of server instances that *aren't* operated by Google; that > helps encourage there *not* to be shenanigans. I think you misunderstood me. I did not in any way insinuate that we should all drink google cool aid, far from it. I was only implying that it may be good software from the reviews I had seem, something that was triggered by the earlier post. Personally, the biggest argument for its success would be html5, I am not too keen into using it. Seriously, I even never registered as earlier user or followed its development closely. I did however read about it during the course of my news intake. That being said, I would also say you may be a little too paranoid, and I say that with respect. You remind me of the book project they are involved with. Most people say there is privacy issue involved, there is monopoly involved etc. This is very correct, but then, its better to get half a bread than nothing. Seriously, if all we do is object to google, just because we fear its growing too big, don't we run a risk of putting them off with no other organization to provide the service in question? For example on the book project, if they ever get tied of it and can it, there is 95% chance no one will ever pick it again. On the other hand, if it take off, there will be every incentive to provide something superior to what they are offering. Heck, and libraries will still be there if they become assholes. Heck, a book is still better tp read in paper form that on the screen > > Sort of the same way that the very existence of Debian (which is > "forcibly free") encourages folks like Red Hat (who have quite often > been the targets of pretty wildly paranoid suspicions over the years) > to consistently listen to their "better angels." ?That is, because > migrating to Debian is a plausible option, this discourages makers of > other distributions from playing overly silly proprietary games. > > It's similarly important that "free servers" ("free" in the sense of > "free from Google's influence") be usable/viable... > -- > http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html > Joan Crawford ?- "I, Joan Crawford, I believe in the dollar. > Everything I earn, I spend." - > http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/joan_crawford.html > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 19:04:08 2009 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 15:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <1254508696.5663.36.camel@cougar-hardy> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <1254508696.5663.36.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 13:41 -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves > > > of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry > > > panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the > > > man page. > > > > > > Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? Nothing applicable jumped out at me > > > from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command > > > prompter. > > > > > > If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe > > > it should? If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an > > > example of what it might do for you. > > > > You could do it with bash's completion functions. > > > > Does that know anything about the paramaters needed for particular > commands. You would have to program them, just as would have had to be done for other platform. > For example, it is not long since I went to `man find` for a > reminder that I wanted to specify argument -wholename instead of -name, > the latter being what my fingers unhelpfully remembered. For a list of operands: man find | grep '^ *-' -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 19:07:29 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:07:29 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0910021034m4016d825w251d19b62009787a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <99a6c38f0910021034m4016d825w251d19b62009787a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC64F71.4000105@rogers.com> Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Terrence Enger wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves >> of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry >> panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the >> man page. >> >> Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? Nothing applicable jumped out at me >> from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command >> prompter. >> >> If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe >> it should? If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an >> example of what it might do for you. >> > > Hi Terry, > > I'm curious enough to ask for an example. I'm also curious as to > which existing platform and tool you're referring to. > I've seen similar in router configuration, where you can ask what the next parameter might be. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 20:35:23 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:35:23 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <1254508696.5663.36.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: <1254515723.5663.56.camel@cougar-hardy> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 15:04 -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > > > On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 13:41 -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > > > I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves > > > > of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry > > > > panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the > > > > man page. > > > > > > > > Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? Nothing applicable jumped out at me > > > > from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command > > > > prompter. > > > > > > > > If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe > > > > it should? If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an > > > > example of what it might do for you. > > > > > > You could do it with bash's completion functions. > > > > > > > Does that know anything about the paramaters needed for particular > > commands. > > You would have to program them, just as would have had to be done > for other platform. That is what I suspected. Command completion is wonderful, but not quite magic . Any new tool must provide enough benefit without too much data entry, and it must be sufficiently robust to continue providing benefit after small changes in documentation of the prompted command. Right now, I am trying to a feeling for what might be "enough" or "too much". > > > For example, it is not long since I went to `man find` for a > > reminder that I wanted to specify argument -wholename instead of -name, > > the latter being what my fingers unhelpfully remembered. > > For a list of operands: > > man find | grep '^ *-' > Oh, I am gonna remember that trick. It beats a search within `less` by leaving hints in front of you on the screen, and quite often a quick reminder is all it takes. In either place, the search is subject to false hits when the body of an explanation just happens at the beginning of a line to refer to an argument. Meanwhile, I have started a mockup (and I am learning things I never knew about `cp`, and I am relearning lots of things I have forgotten about html), so I shall keep plugging a bit longer. Cheers, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 20:35:37 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 16:35:37 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves >> of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry >> panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the >> man page. >> >> Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? ?Nothing applicable jumped out at me >> from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command >> prompter. >> >> If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe >> it should? ?If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an >> example of what it might do for you. > > ? ?You could do it with bash's completion functions. The "granddaddy" of this is the zsh completion functionality... http://zsh.sourceforge.net/Doc/Release/zsh_19.html A significant example that I use is the completion functions for PostgreSQL... http://www.zsh.org/mla/users/2004/msg01002.html For instance, it encodes the arguments for the "psql" client thus: _psql () { local curcontext="$curcontext" state line expl typeset -A opt_args _arguments -C -s \ "$_pgsql_common_opts[@]" \ {-V,--version}'[display client version]' \ {-a,--echo-all}'[print commands read]' \ {-A,--no-align}'[unaligned output mode]' \ {-c+,--command=}':execute SQL command:' \ {-d+,--dbname=}':database to connect to:_pgsql_databases' \ {-e,--echo-queries}'[display queries submitted]' \ {-E,--echo-hidden}'[display hidden queries]' \ {-f+,--file=}':SQL file to read:_files' \ {-F+,--field-separator=}':field separator char:' \ {-H,--html}'[HTML output]' \ {-l,--list}'[list databases]' \ {-o+,--output=}':query output:_files' \ {-P+,--pset=}':set psql variable:' \ {-q,--quiet}'[non verbose mode]' \ {-R+,--record-separator=}':record separator char:' \ {-s,--single-step}'[prompt before each query]' \ {-S,--single-line}'[newline sends query]' \ {-t,--tuples-only}'[dont display header/footer]' \ {-T+,--table-attr=}':HTML table options:' \ -u'[prompt for username/password]' \ {-v+,--set=,--variable=}':set SQL variable:' \ {-x,--expanded}'[one column per line]' \ {-X,--no-psqlrc}'[dont read ~/.psqlrc]' \ ':PostgreSQL database:_pgsql_databases' \ ':PostgreSQL user:_pgsql_users' } As a result of the above, if you type... psql -[tab] it'll display (in a fairly attractive format) the list of possible completions of the option. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Ted Turner - "Sports is like a war without the killing." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/ted_turner.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tim-Ww2BJfnxIYteoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 20:47:03 2009 From: tim-Ww2BJfnxIYteoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Tim Middleton) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 16:47:03 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <1254508696.5663.36.camel@cougar-hardy> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <1254508696.5663.36.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: <200910021647.03654.tim@xxvii.net> debian/ubuntu has a package called "bash-completion" that drops a bunch of scripts to do auto-completion for a bunch of programs into /etc/bash_completion.d/ Other linux platforms probably have a similar package (freebsd does also). The ubuntu package points to this url: http://bash- completion.alioth.debian.org/ The freebsd package points here: http://www.caliban.org/bash/index.shtml The collection of scripts isn't very extensive. But if there's any commands you want to add support for, these scripts can serve as example. "find" is not there, for example. But find has *so* many options it'd probably just fill up your screen anyhow. (-; On Friday 02 October 2009 14:38:16 Terrence Enger wrote: > On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 13:41 -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > > > I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves > > > of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry > > > panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the > > > man page. > > > > > > Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? Nothing applicable jumped out at > > > me from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command > > > prompter. > > > > > > If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe > > > it should? If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an > > > example of what it might do for you. > > > > You could do it with bash's completion functions. > > Does that know anything about the paramaters needed for particular > commands. For example, it is not long since I went to `man find` for a > reminder that I wanted to specify argument -wholename instead of -name, > the latter being what my fingers unhelpfully remembered. > > Cheers, > Terry. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 2 21:08:13 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 14:08:13 -0700 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <200910021647.03654.tim-Ww2BJfnxIYteoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <1254508696.5663.36.camel@cougar-hardy> <200910021647.03654.tim@xxvii.net> Message-ID: <3a97ef0910021408p3e5a1001q355ac202460cf72c@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Tim Middleton wrote: > debian/ubuntu has a package called "bash-completion" that drops a bunch of > scripts to do auto-completion for a bunch of programs into > /etc/bash_completion.d/ > > Other linux platforms probably have a similar package (freebsd does also). > > The ubuntu package points to this url: http://bash- > completion.alioth.debian.org/ > > The freebsd package points here: http://www.caliban.org/bash/index.shtml > > The collection of scripts isn't very extensive. But if there's any commands > you want to add support for, these scripts can serve as example. > > "find" is not there, for example. But find has *so* many options it'd probably > just ?fill up your screen anyhow. (-; > > > > On Friday 02 October 2009 14:38:16 Terrence Enger wrote: >> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 13:41 -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: >> > > Greetings, >> > > >> > > I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves >> > > of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry >> > > panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the >> > > man page. >> > > >> > > Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? ?Nothing applicable jumped out at >> > > me from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command >> > > prompter. >> > > >> > > If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe >> > > it should? ?If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an >> > > example of what it might do for you. >> > >> > ? ? You could do it with bash's completion functions. >> >> Does that know anything about the paramaters needed for particular >> commands. ?For example, it is not long since I went to `man find` for a >> reminder that I wanted to specify argument -wholename instead of -name, >> the latter being what my fingers unhelpfully remembered. >> >> Cheers, >> Terry. >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Actually, find works on the system as my office: # find -[tab] -amin -cnewer -empty -follow -fstype -ilname -iregex -maxdepth -mtime -noleaf -print -regex -uid -wholename -anewer -ctime -exec -fprint -gid -iname -links -mindepth -name -nouser -print0 -size -used -xdev -atime -daystart -false -fprint0 -group -inum -lname -mmin -newer -ok -printf -true -user -xtype -cmin -depth -fls -fprintf -help -ipath -ls -mount -nogroup -perm -prune -type -version The only big issue I've found with enabling command-completion is that sometimes it seems to make the login process (SSH) take a second+ longer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 00:13:35 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:13:35 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0910021408p3e5a1001q355ac202460cf72c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <1254508696.5663.36.camel@cougar-hardy> <200910021647.03654.tim@xxvii.net> <3a97ef0910021408p3e5a1001q355ac202460cf72c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1254528816.5663.65.camel@cougar-hardy> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 14:08 -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote: [ some quoted material snipped ] > > Actually, find works on the system as my office: > > # find -[tab] > -amin -cnewer -empty -follow -fstype -ilname > -iregex -maxdepth -mtime -noleaf -print -regex > -uid -wholename > -anewer -ctime -exec -fprint -gid -iname > -links -mindepth -name -nouser -print0 -size > -used -xdev > -atime -daystart -false -fprint0 -group -inum > -lname -mmin -newer -ok -printf -true > -user -xtype > -cmin -depth -fls -fprintf -help -ipath > -ls -mount -nogroup -perm -prune -type > -version > I wrote earlier today that command completion is not magic. Silly me, wrong again. The magic even works for me. And it does seem like magic. Where on earth is the information coming from? Cheers, Terry. > > The only big issue I've found with enabling command-completion is that > sometimes it seems to make the login process (SSH) take a second+ > longer. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 00:24:30 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:24:30 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <200910021647.03654.tim-Ww2BJfnxIYteoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <1254508696.5663.36.camel@cougar-hardy> <200910021647.03654.tim@xxvii.net> Message-ID: <1254529470.5663.73.camel@cougar-hardy> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 16:47 -0400, Tim Middleton wrote: > debian/ubuntu has a package called "bash-completion" that drops a bunch of > scripts to do auto-completion for a bunch of programs into > /etc/bash_completion.d/ > > Other linux platforms probably have a similar package (freebsd does also). > > The ubuntu package points to this url: http://bash- > completion.alioth.debian.org/ > > The freebsd package points here: http://www.caliban.org/bash/index.shtml > > The collection of scripts isn't very extensive. But if there's any commands > you want to add support for, these scripts can serve as example. > > "find" is not there, for example. But find has *so* many options it'd probably > just fill up your screen anyhow. (-; Tyler Aviss' to your message showed me how to get command completion to show the arguments to a command. The result for find seems good enough for me. I do have bash-completion installed, and I am curious to see what more it does for a program which is supported. Any suggestions? Cheers, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 00:26:25 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 20:26:25 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <4AC60F9D.4050809-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> Message-ID: <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson@eol.ca> On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:35:09 -0400 Darryl Moore wrote: > How can you have a COUPLE .openoffice directories? > > I've had similar problems at times and deleting the .openoffice > directory has always resolved it. I had a directory .openoffice and a directory .openoffice.org. Now, I just have .openoffice.org, and deleting it does not seem to do anything. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 00:31:55 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:31:55 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: <1254529915.5663.80.camel@cougar-hardy> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 16:35 -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > > > >> Greetings, > >> > >> I am used, working on another platform, to having a tool which relieves > >> of the need to remember command line parameters ... sort of an entry > >> panel with brief prompts and hyperlinks to the applicable part of the > >> man page. > >> > >> Is there such a tool for GNU/Linux? Nothing applicable jumped out at me > >> from the first hundred results of a google search for linux command > >> prompter. > >> > >> If this does not already exist, is there anybody else who thinks maybe > >> it should? If anybody expresses an interest, I shall put together an > >> example of what it might do for you. > > > > You could do it with bash's completion functions. > > The "granddaddy" of this is the zsh completion functionality... > > http://zsh.sourceforge.net/Doc/Release/zsh_19.html > > A significant example that I use is the completion functions for PostgreSQL... > > http://www.zsh.org/mla/users/2004/msg01002.html > > For instance, it encodes the arguments for the "psql" client thus: > > _psql () { > local curcontext="$curcontext" state line expl > typeset -A opt_args > > _arguments -C -s \ > "$_pgsql_common_opts[@]" \ > {-V,--version}'[display client version]' \ > {-a,--echo-all}'[print commands read]' \ > {-A,--no-align}'[unaligned output mode]' \ > {-c+,--command=}':execute SQL command:' \ > {-d+,--dbname=}':database to connect to:_pgsql_databases' \ > {-e,--echo-queries}'[display queries submitted]' \ > {-E,--echo-hidden}'[display hidden queries]' \ > {-f+,--file=}':SQL file to read:_files' \ > {-F+,--field-separator=}':field separator char:' \ > {-H,--html}'[HTML output]' \ > {-l,--list}'[list databases]' \ > {-o+,--output=}':query output:_files' \ > {-P+,--pset=}':set psql variable:' \ > {-q,--quiet}'[non verbose mode]' \ > {-R+,--record-separator=}':record separator char:' \ > {-s,--single-step}'[prompt before each query]' \ > {-S,--single-line}'[newline sends query]' \ > {-t,--tuples-only}'[dont display header/footer]' \ > {-T+,--table-attr=}':HTML table options:' \ > -u'[prompt for username/password]' \ > {-v+,--set=,--variable=}':set SQL variable:' \ > {-x,--expanded}'[one column per line]' \ > {-X,--no-psqlrc}'[dont read ~/.psqlrc]' \ > ':PostgreSQL database:_pgsql_databases' \ > ':PostgreSQL user:_pgsql_users' > } > > As a result of the above, if you type... > > psql -[tab] > > it'll display (in a fairly attractive format) the list of possible > completions of the option. I can see that this encodes a lot of useful information. Do these functions come with PostgreSQL, or zsh, or what? Cheers, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 00:53:37 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:53:37 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0910021034m4016d825w251d19b62009787a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <99a6c38f0910021034m4016d825w251d19b62009787a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1254531217.5663.92.camel@cougar-hardy> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 13:34 -0400, Scott Elcomb wrote: [snip] > I'm curious enough to ask for an example. I have put a page at . It is rough and in some respects outright wrong, but others here (my thanks are due to all of you) have showed me that the system is already more capable that I knew. I shudda googled for "completion" instead of "prompter". To be able to enter parameters in a form integrated with prompts would be some benefit, but not much, I think. Unless I feel different in the morning--or somebody else, perchance, feels different--I see no place for further effort. Thank you, Scott, for your attention. Cheers, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 04:08:09 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 00:08:09 -0400 Subject: OT: Getting Kicked Out Of A Concert. Message-ID: <7c50d3570910022108s42d24f95t4ff6c753d04b24@mail.gmail.com> What is your take on the following: I was kicked out of the DragonForce concert at Sound Academy after a white person took a swing at him and he protected himself; the white guy got to stay and the black person got thrown out...doesn't seem fair does it! ---- I will be contacting all involved come Monday: TicketMaster, Sound Academy, SecurTrust, Northern Protection; because this was not fair at all. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 04:13:36 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 00:13:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Getting Kicked Out Of A Concert. In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910022108s42d24f95t4ff6c753d04b24-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910022108s42d24f95t4ff6c753d04b24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570910022113l4fc407dbvd7abf07457a93269@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 00:08, Michael Lauzon wrote: > What is your take on the following: > > I was kicked out of the DragonForce concert at Sound Academy after a > white person took a swing at him and he protected himself; the white > guy got to stay and the black person got thrown out...doesn't seem > fair does it! > That should read: "...took a swing at me..."; as I posted on my facebook profile in the third person. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 14:19:36 2009 From: mattseburn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Matt Seburn) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 10:19:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Getting Kicked Out Of A Concert. In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910022113l4fc407dbvd7abf07457a93269-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910022108s42d24f95t4ff6c753d04b24@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910022113l4fc407dbvd7abf07457a93269@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8e023ee60910030719l3473b004s9a215134f527bbf3@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 00:08, Michael Lauzon wrote: >> What is your take on the following: >> >> I was kicked out of the DragonForce concert at Sound Academy after a >> white person took a swing at him and he protected himself; the white >> guy got to stay and the black person got thrown out...doesn't seem >> fair does it! >> > > That should read: "...took a swing at me..."; as I posted on my > facebook profile in the third person. I was there! I'm sorry you were kicked out, it was an awesome concert. Whereabouts were you? There was a lot of craziness near the front, and I think the security guards likely couldn't really tell what was going on. Mosh pits are one of those near-lawless environments, and unfortunately in those situations sometimes those with some authority make quick decisions because they have to do *something*, and they don't always make the right choice :( Did you get to see some of the concert at least? > -- > Sincerely, > > Michael Lauzon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 15:33:57 2009 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:33:57 -0400 Subject: MS Customer Support In-Reply-To: <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <200910031133.57758.dbmacg@look.ca> Has *anybody* ever had a satisfactory solution to a problem they presented to MS customer support? How much did it cost you? Just asking. -- Duncan MacGregor -- Toronto -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 18:32:54 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 14:32:54 -0400 Subject: MS Customer Support In-Reply-To: <200910031133.57758.dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson@eol.ca> <200910031133.57758.dbmacg@look.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0910031132u7f445765r80b1df871d72def7@mail.gmail.com> I generally don't deal with MS Support often, but a buddy of mine manages a number of MS servers. At times when a resolution is known to them, he says the business-level support was quite good. For issues they didn't know a resolution to (which sadly, can be ones that are known and several years old), it involves much digging into forums etc for "crufty hacks" etc (not that dissimilar to 'nix at time). On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Duncan MacGregor wrote: > Has *anybody* ever had a satisfactory solution to a problem > they presented ?to MS customer support? > > How much did it cost you? > Just ? asking. > -- > Duncan MacGregor ?-- Toronto -- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (778) 890-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 3 20:03:13 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 16:03:13 -0400 Subject: MS Customer Support In-Reply-To: <200910031133.57758.dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson@eol.ca> <200910031133.57758.dbmacg@look.ca> Message-ID: <20091003160313.483f3f6e.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:33:57 -0400 Duncan MacGregor wrote: > Has *anybody* ever had a satisfactory solution to a problem > they presented to MS customer support? > > How much did it cost you? > Just asking. Duncan, This is Open Office, not Microsoft Office. I have solved the problem. One reason Open Office will not launch is that an Open Office process already is running. I was unable to find the process, but rebooting the computer fixed it. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 4 00:01:07 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 20:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <1254531217.5663.92.camel@cougar-hardy> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <99a6c38f0910021034m4016d825w251d19b62009787a@mail.gmail.com> <1254531217.5663.92.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terrence Enger wrote: > To be able to enter parameters in a form integrated with prompts would > be some benefit, but not much, I think. Unless I feel different in the > morning--or somebody else, perchance, feels different--I see no place > for further effort. You may also want to look at aliases and functions within bash. It is normal for shell users to create aliases that include various switches for their most common commands. Functions can do everything aliases can do and allow for increased complexity. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy http://www.practicalsysadmin.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 4 00:57:31 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 20:57:31 -0400 Subject: MS Customer Support In-Reply-To: <20091003160313.483f3f6e.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson@eol.ca> <200910031133.57758.dbmacg@look.ca> <20091003160313.483f3f6e.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4AC7F2FB.1080201@moores.ca> I'm not sure Duncan's query was related to your issue, though I could be wrong. I suspected that might have been your problem. I've found this occationally with Open Office, as well as Thunderbird and Firefox. Usually it does not require a reboot. Just open up the system monitor and kill it there. cheers, darryl Howard Gibson wrote: > On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:33:57 -0400 Duncan MacGregor > wrote: > >> Has *anybody* ever had a satisfactory solution to a problem they >> presented to MS customer support? >> >> How much did it cost you? Just asking. > > Duncan, > > This is Open Office, not Microsoft Office. > > I have solved the problem. One reason Open Office will not launch is > that an Open Office process already is running. I was unable to find > the process, but rebooting the computer fixed it. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 4 01:09:07 2009 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 21:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MS Customer Support In-Reply-To: <4AC7F2FB.1080201-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson@eol.ca> <200910031133.57758.dbmacg@look.ca> <20091003160313.483f3f6e.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC7F2FB.1080201@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 2009, Darryl Moore wrote: > I'm not sure Duncan's query was related to your issue, though I could be > wrong. > > I suspected that might have been your problem. I've found this > occationally with Open Office, as well as Thunderbird and Firefox. > > Usually it does not require a reboot. Just open up the system monitor > and kill it there. System monitor? What's that? top? I use: killall or: ps -ef | grep ; kill ... I find that KDE apps are the worst offenders; they often stay alive in the background after exiting. > Howard Gibson wrote: > > On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:33:57 -0400 Duncan MacGregor > > wrote: > > > >> Has *anybody* ever had a satisfactory solution to a problem they > >> presented to MS customer support? > >> > >> How much did it cost you? Just asking. > > > > Duncan, > > > > This is Open Office, not Microsoft Office. > > > > I have solved the problem. One reason Open Office will not launch is > > that an Open Office process already is running. I was unable to find > > the process, but rebooting the computer fixed it. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 4 01:53:12 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:53:12 -0400 Subject: MS Customer Support In-Reply-To: References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson@eol.ca> <200910031133.57758.dbmacg@look.ca> <20091003160313.483f3f6e.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC7F2FB.1080201@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4AC80008.6050001@moores.ca> LOL :-) Personally I use pkill when working on the commandline Since I'm not sure anyone has done a curses port of openoffice, I was pretty sure he was working in 'X' and therefore would have easy access to some GUI sysadmin tools. Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On Sat, 3 Oct 2009, Darryl Moore wrote: > >> I'm not sure Duncan's query was related to your issue, though I could be >> wrong. >> >> I suspected that might have been your problem. I've found this >> occationally with Open Office, as well as Thunderbird and Firefox. >> >> Usually it does not require a reboot. Just open up the system monitor >> and kill it there. > > System monitor? What's that? top? > > I use: > > killall > > or: > > ps -ef | grep ; kill ... > > I find that KDE apps are the worst offenders; they often stay alive > in the background after exiting. > >> Howard Gibson wrote: >>> On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:33:57 -0400 Duncan MacGregor >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Has *anybody* ever had a satisfactory solution to a problem they >>>> presented to MS customer support? >>>> >>>> How much did it cost you? Just asking. >>> Duncan, >>> >>> This is Open Office, not Microsoft Office. >>> >>> I have solved the problem. One reason Open Office will not launch is >>> that an Open Office process already is running. I was unable to find >>> the process, but rebooting the computer fixed it. >>> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-+oaQStku59NWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 4 03:11:13 2009 From: hugh-+oaQStku59NWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Hugh Gamble) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 23:11:13 -0400 Subject: MS Customer Support In-Reply-To: <4AC80008.6050001-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson@eol.ca> <200910031133.57758.dbmacg@look.ca> <20091003160313.483f3f6e.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC7F2FB.1080201@moores.ca> <4AC80008.6050001@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4AC81251.1080105@phaedrav.com> Darryl Moore wrote: > Since I'm not sure anyone has done a curses port of openoffice, I've worked with the curses port of MS Office (for Unix/Xenix) but that was some years ago. > >> >> >>> Howard Gibson wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:33:57 -0400 Duncan MacGregor >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Has *anybody* ever had a satisfactory solution to a problem they >>>>> presented to MS customer support? >>>>> >>>>> How much did it cost you? Just asking. >>>>> I've always had successful resolution of actual bug reports, as a developer. For free. Granted, it can take a while with any company that big. Usually the resolution isn't until the next update cycle. For user issues the resolution, or lack thereof, usually lies with the VAR chain. MS gets blamed when the smaller ones go out of business or just provide poor quality service. They're aware of that problem and are doing their best to ameliorate it, given contractual limitations. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 4 18:48:34 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 14:48:34 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:44 AM, Howard Gibson wrote: > ? I upgraded my system recently to Fedora Core 11. ?I have just discovered that my Open Office is not working. ?Upon further hacking, I have discovered that it does work on accounts other than mine. ?I have found a couple of .openoffice directories and I deleted them, but this is having no effect. > > ? Does anybody know what directories are controlling Open Office? Any clues when you start writer from the command line? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 4 21:49:25 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 17:49:25 -0400 Subject: command prompter In-Reply-To: <1254529915.5663.80.camel@cougar-hardy> References: <1254503426.5663.13.camel@cougar-hardy> <1254529915.5663.80.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Terrence Enger wrote: > I can see that this encodes a lot of useful information. ?Do these > functions come with PostgreSQL, or zsh, or what? As it happens, those haven't been included in "base" zsh functionality; that's archived at present on the mailing list for zsh. There are, however, quite a lot of command completions included (>500) in the zsh sources. http://zsh.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/zsh/zsh/Completion -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Ted Turner - "Sports is like a war without the killing." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/ted_turner.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 4 22:39:50 2009 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 18:39:50 -0400 Subject: Laptops Compatible with Virtualization and Linux Message-ID: <4AC92436.2010602@utoronto.ca> Is there a review out there of laptops compatible with virtualization and Linux. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 4 22:38:22 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:38:22 -0400 Subject: OpenOffice In-Reply-To: References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20091004183822.bca71f0d.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 14:48:34 -0400 Richard Weait wrote: > > ? Does anybody know what directories are controlling Open Office? > > Any clues when you start writer from the command line? Richard, No clues. I tried running it through gdb and it indicated it could not find a file. Problem solved though, as noted in previous messages. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 02:48:37 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:48:37 -0400 Subject: Laptops Compatible with Virtualization and Linux In-Reply-To: <4AC92436.2010602-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC92436.2010602@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4AC95E85.3080302@alteeve.com> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Is there a review out there of laptops compatible with virtualization > and Linux. > > Ivan. Hi Ivan, I've had my Thinkpad T400s for about a month now. It's got a p9400 Core 2 Duo (http://tinyurl.com/yex33o3 - wikipedia link) which supports hardware virtualization. The T400 version is a bit heavier, but a fair bit less expensive. That said, if you have a bit more to spare, I *sighly* recommend the T400s. It supports Linux fine. I got the Bluetooth, camera and Intel 5300 wifi options and all worked on Ubuntu 9.04 out of the box. The fingerprint reader did not, not does the Fn+F8 touchpad toggle though. Personally, this doesn't bug me. The important things like power management, CPU throttling and what not is all fine. As for the actual machine; The keyboard and weight are probably the main highlights. The machine, with DVD-RW, 6-cell battery and 14.1" 1440x900 screen is only 3.9lbs. To compare, my Eee 10" netbook is 3.3lbs! What is probably less noticed but even more impressive is just how cool this machine runs. I've got it sitting on my lap, on a blanket and it's just barely warm directly under the CPU! The keyboard... well, I can't exactly describe just how amazing the keyboard is. I would say that it's tactile feedback is as close to the old IBM click keyboards I've ever used; desktop or laptop. It's slightly annoying that they moved the Insert key above F12 being a vim user, but I got used to that pretty quick. The feel of the keys though... I can not overstate just how awesome this keyboard feels to type on. It's just... it's a work of tactile art! The only two downsides I could really think of, if pressed, are; 1. The battery is a bit small, so I only get about two hours of real use out of it. There is no bigger battery, either. Unlike the T400 and most other Thinkpads, the battery does not slot in the back It sits in a pocket under the base, so there is no room for a 9-cell. However, the T400 proper does not have this limitation. Personally, I kinda wish I'd gotten the spare ultra-bay battery given how rarely I use the optical drove. 2. I decided to get the platter drive and wait for SSDs to come down in price over the next year. This is a noticeable performance hit. The drive is a 1.8" uSATA drive, which are rare. Intel has a version though, but it is still too expensive for my taste. If you worry about disk I/O, splurge for the SSD or go with the T400 proper which uses normal sized 2.5" platter disks and get a 7,200rpm drive. Other than those two caveats, I can't really think of anything bad to say. It's certainly no gaming machine... It's 100% business. For coding and work though, I looked for a long time, considered a Macbook Pro, looked at ASUS B* series... nothing comes close to being as sturdy and as well built. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 03:11:27 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 23:11:27 -0400 Subject: Laptops Compatible with Virtualization and Linux In-Reply-To: <4AC92436.2010602-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC92436.2010602@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Is there a review out there of laptops compatible with virtualization > and Linux. One of my coworkers has been using VMWare for pretty much this purpose, for many years now. He's a FreeBSD guy; his usual combination was to host VMWare atop Windows, then spawn hordes of FreeBSD instances. (The usual point being that they are running PostgreSQL instances that he might kill off in varying ways to do tests...) At any rate, VMWare has worked fine for him on a whole bunch of different laptops since the other end of the decade. I've seen others using VMWare for such things on Linux since before that. There may be merits to having special hardware to support virtualization, but VMWare started doing this well before that was a twinkle in Intel's eye. There may be reasons to avoid VMWare (hey, it's proprietary stuff, so RMS would not be proud :-)), but it may be worth considering... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Stephen Leacock - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue that I shall some day die, which is not so." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/stephen_leacock.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 04:09:50 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 00:09:50 -0400 Subject: MS Customer Support In-Reply-To: <200910031133.57758.dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM@public.gmane.org> References: <20091002024430.5148cc98.hgibson@eol.ca> <4AC60F9D.4050809@moores.ca> <20091002202625.31f640d2.hgibson@eol.ca> <200910031133.57758.dbmacg@look.ca> Message-ID: <4AC9718E.7060702@gmail.com> Duncan MacGregor wrote: > Has *anybody* ever had a satisfactory solution to a problem > they presented to MS customer support? > > How much did it cost you? > Just asking. I once had to a get a new key for my WinXP install CD that came with my Laptop. I called Compaq (my laptop owner) and they told me I had to contact MS. I called MS and they issued me a new key and the support guy stayed on the phone until my WinXP got activated.The support guy told me if I have any problem in the future when doing a clean install that I could call them back for a new key again. It didn't cost me anything, and it was quick and painless. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 04:16:43 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 00:16:43 -0400 Subject: Laptops Compatible with Virtualization and Linux In-Reply-To: References: <4AC92436.2010602@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4AC9732B.7000604@gmail.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: >> Is there a review out there of laptops compatible with virtualization >> and Linux. > > One of my coworkers has been using VMWare for pretty much this > purpose, for many years now. > > He's a FreeBSD guy; his usual combination was to host VMWare atop > Windows, then spawn hordes of FreeBSD instances. (The usual point > being that they are running PostgreSQL instances that he might kill > off in varying ways to do tests...) > > At any rate, VMWare has worked fine for him on a whole bunch of > different laptops since the other end of the decade. I've seen others > using VMWare for such things on Linux since before that. > > There may be merits to having special hardware to support > virtualization, but VMWare started doing this well before that was a > twinkle in Intel's eye. > > There may be reasons to avoid VMWare (hey, it's proprietary stuff, so > RMS would not be proud :-)), but it may be worth considering... I have an old Compaq Laptop with AMD Athlon 64bit processor. I've got VMware installed on it and I've been able to install various Linux Distor: CentOS 5.3, Slackware 12.3, Kubuntu 9.10, Fedora 11, and Debian 5.0. They all seem to work just fine for me. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mnativid-G1DYhSM1WHTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 08:04:32 2009 From: mnativid-G1DYhSM1WHTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Mervin Natividad) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 04:04:32 -0400 Subject: AUTO: Mervin Natividad is out of the office (returning 12/10/2009) Message-ID: I am out of the office until 12/10/2009. Note: This is an automated response to your message "Re: [TLUG]: Laptops Compatible with Virtualization and Linux" sent on 10/5/09 0:16:43. This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 13:49:26 2009 From: lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Julian C. Dunn) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 09:49:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PHP templating engine recommendations? Message-ID: I realize this is only peripherally related to Linux and I apologize in advance. I'm looking to impose a PHP templating engine on folks who have a hard time separating code and content. In the past, I've used Smarty with great success; now I hear that there is a replacement, Dwoo. Does anyone have recommendations for other candidates? Has anyone used Dwoo? - Julian [ Julian C. Dunn * Sorry, I'm ] [ WWW: http://www.aquezada.com/staff/julian * only Web 1.0 ] [ gopher://sdf.lonestar.org/11/users/keymaker * compliant! ] [ PGP: 91B3 7A9D 683C 7C16 715F 442C 6065 D533 FDC2 05B9 ] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 14:18:51 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 10:18:51 -0400 Subject: Laptops Compatible with Virtualization and Linux In-Reply-To: <4AC92436.2010602-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC92436.2010602@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20091005141851.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 04, 2009 at 06:39:50PM -0400, Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Is there a review out there of laptops compatible with virtualization > and Linux. My thinkpad SL500 works fine with KVM and such. Of course I made sure to pick one of the CPUs that supports it. Not all do. Now sony laptops often don't support it even if the CPU does apparently. This seems to have surprised and annoyed a number of people. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 14:33:45 2009 From: gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (George Nicol) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:33:45 -0400 Subject: PHP templating engine recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ACA03C9.9020900@primus.ca> Julian C. Dunn wrote: > I'm looking to impose a PHP templating engine on folks who have > a hard time separating code and content. > > Does anyone have recommendations for other candidates? Are you looking for a Content Management System (CMS)? I recommend investigating ExpressionEngine. It is Open Source, has a good record for security, is reasonably priced, and runs on any LAMP or WAMP system. It is also well documented and supported. http://expressionengine.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 15:05:30 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 11:05:30 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax Message-ID: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> A bit OT, but important. http://www.stopthetvtax.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 15:23:15 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 11:23:15 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA0B3A.50902-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4ACA0F63.3040103@moores.ca> Meh, I'm not too concerned, I got rid of my cable over ten years ago. I watch the occasional show via bit torrent these days though. I figure this action will simply hasten the demise of the cable companies and the old broadcast business model. So in the the long run, this is probably a good thing. James Knott wrote: > A bit OT, but important. > > http://www.stopthetvtax.ca/ > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 15:45:45 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 11:45:45 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA0F63.3040103-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> <4ACA0F63.3040103@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4ACA14A9.7070707@alteeve.com> Darryl Moore wrote: > Meh, I'm not too concerned, I got rid of my cable over ten years ago. > > I watch the occasional show via bit torrent these days though. > > I figure this action will simply hasten the demise of the cable > companies and the old broadcast business model. So in the the long run, > this is probably a good thing. Until they decide that the Internet is a fancy TV and expand the tax. Just like how we're all guilty of stealing music and have to pay a "levi" when buying recordable media. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 15:49:03 2009 From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 08:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA0F63.3040103-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> <4ACA0F63.3040103@moores.ca> Message-ID: <847835.40950.qm@web59512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I don't pay and will not for TV. That is what the commercials are for. Besides, we could easily switch to Free To Air Satellite TV. There are other option than paid services. So, I'm not concerned either. Abby ________________________________ From: Darryl Moore To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Monday, October 5, 2009 11:23:15 AM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT - Stop The TV Tax Meh, I'm not too concerned, I got rid of my cable over ten years ago. I watch the occasional show via bit torrent these days though. I figure this action will simply hasten the demise of the cable companies and the old broadcast business model. So in the the long run, this is probably a good thing. James Knott wrote: > A bit OT, but important. > > http://www.stopthetvtax.ca/ > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 15:59:30 2009 From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 08:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA14A9.7070707-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> <4ACA0F63.3040103@moores.ca> <4ACA14A9.7070707@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <844061.19413.qm@web59507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Yes, I will be adding my voice of opposition to adding more taxes or Levi to anything. However, here is some food for thought that may or may not need to be said. The governments of the world will always try to find ways to Tax the people. We can not avoid it. Yes, we can voice our objections, but in the end they will do something, if not the original idea. BTW, are we Canadians the most heavily tax people, when comparing other countries, and how does our government services, human rights, health care, etc., compare / stack up as well? Abby ________________________________ From: Madison Kelly To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Monday, October 5, 2009 11:45:45 AM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT - Stop The TV Tax Darryl Moore wrote: > Meh, I'm not too concerned, I got rid of my cable over ten years ago. > > I watch the occasional show via bit torrent these days though. > > I figure this action will simply hasten the demise of the cable > companies and the old broadcast business model. So in the the long run, > this is probably a good thing. Until they decide that the Internet is a fancy TV and expand the tax. Just like how we're all guilty of stealing music and have to pay a "levi" when buying recordable media. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer? 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 16:19:45 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:19:45 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <844061.19413.qm-9zO9EEzDbjn5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> <4ACA0F63.3040103@moores.ca> <4ACA14A9.7070707@alteeve.com> <844061.19413.qm@web59507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ACA1CA1.9020501@rogers.com> Abidel Bassie-Cripps wrote: > Yes, I will be adding my voice of opposition to adding more taxes or > Levi to anything. > > However, here is some food for thought that may or may not need to be > said. The governments of the world will always try to find ways to Tax > the people. We can not avoid it. Yes, we can voice our objections, but > in the end they will do something, if not the original idea. BTW, are > we Canadians the most heavily tax people, when comparing other > countries, and how does our government services, human rights, health > care, etc., compare / stack up as well? One minor detail: Taxes are supposed to provide some benefit to the general population. This provides benefit to the broadcasters only. It's like taking highway tolls and giving them to GM, Ford etc. People should not be taxed for the benefit of some corporation. Also, for many people, cable or satellite are the only way to get TV. Should they have to pay this tax, while a neighbour, who can put up an antenna, does not? Also, last time I checked, cable & satellite do a decent job of bringing many more viewers to a station. Are they, or their customers, now to pay for providing that benefit to the broadcasters? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 16:28:35 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 12:28:35 -0400 Subject: Laptops Compatible with Virtualization and Linux In-Reply-To: References: <4AC92436.2010602@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20091005162835.GC26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Oct 04, 2009 at 11:11:27PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > One of my coworkers has been using VMWare for pretty much this > purpose, for many years now. > > He's a FreeBSD guy; his usual combination was to host VMWare atop > Windows, then spawn hordes of FreeBSD instances. (The usual point > being that they are running PostgreSQL instances that he might kill > off in varying ways to do tests...) > > At any rate, VMWare has worked fine for him on a whole bunch of > different laptops since the other end of the decade. I've seen others > using VMWare for such things on Linux since before that. > > There may be merits to having special hardware to support > virtualization, but VMWare started doing this well before that was a > twinkle in Intel's eye. Some vmware versions take advantage of the hardware. It does improve performance for some things. > There may be reasons to avoid VMWare (hey, it's proprietary stuff, so > RMS would not be proud :-)), but it may be worth considering... Well the fact they are always way behind in supporting new kernels is one reason. Their new windows style installer that workstation 6.5 and server 2.0 use is another reason to no longer care about them. Now that KVM is here (and kqemu for those without the hardware support), I have no need for vmware anymore. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 16:30:52 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 12:30:52 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <844061.19413.qm-9zO9EEzDbjn5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> <4ACA0F63.3040103@moores.ca> <4ACA14A9.7070707@alteeve.com> <844061.19413.qm@web59507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091005163052.GD26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 08:59:30AM -0700, Abidel Bassie-Cripps wrote: > Yes, I will be adding my voice of opposition to adding more taxes or Levi to anything. > > However, here is some food for thought that may or may not need to be said. The governments of the world will always try to find ways to Tax the people. We can not avoid it. Yes, we can voice our objections, but in the end they will do something, if not the original idea. BTW, are we Canadians the most heavily tax people, when comparing other countries, and how does our government services, human rights, health care, etc., compare / stack up as well? No not even remotely close. If you want to see taxation, look at the scandinavian countries. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 16:46:21 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:46:21 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <844061.19413.qm-9zO9EEzDbjn5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> <4ACA0F63.3040103@moores.ca> <4ACA14A9.7070707@alteeve.com> <844061.19413.qm@web59507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ACA22DD.3050502@the-wire.com> Abidel Bassie-Cripps wrote: > [ ... ]The governments of the world will always try to find ways to Tax the people. We can not avoid it. Yes, we can voice our objections, but in the end they will do something, if not the original idea. BTW, are we Canadians the most heavily tax people, when comparing other countries, and how does our government services, human rights, health care, etc., compare / stack up as well? No, some of the northern European places tax higher. ISTR Canada is in, say, the top quartal. Though I've thought that if you look at some third-world places where a money economy is trying to squeeze tax revenue out of a subsistence economy, you might find some horrendously high rates. I think that the real question for us as citizens is "What are we getting for the money?" If we don't deal with that, we spend all our energy on unendable arguments about stupid things, like they do down south. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 16:48:05 2009 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 09:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA0B3A.50902-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> Message-ID: <997215.96220.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > From: James Knott > A bit OT, but important. > > http://www.stopthetvtax.ca/ > I am a bit sympathetic for the TV stations. Most, if not all, of the cable only stations get paid by the cable companies to carry their signals. The broadcast companies need to compete against companies that not onlt get advertising revenue, but also fees from the cable companies. And it is very dishonest to call the proposed fees a "tax" Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 16:55:57 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 12:55:57 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA0F63.3040103-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> <4ACA0F63.3040103@moores.ca> Message-ID: <20091005125557.4e434dcd@teksavvy.com> Darryl Moore wrote: > Meh, I'm not too concerned, I got rid of my cable over ten years ago. > > I watch the occasional show via bit torrent these days though. > > I figure this action will simply hasten the demise of the cable > companies and the old broadcast business model. So in the the long run, > this is probably a good thing. Ditto. To me this sounds like a debate about taxing gas lamps and steam engines. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 16:56:09 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:56:09 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <997215.96220.qm-d7tsDWDCFVGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <997215.96220.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ACA2529.90308@rogers.com> Stephen wrote: >> From: James Knott >> > > >> A bit OT, but important. >> >> http://www.stopthetvtax.ca/ >> >> > I am a bit sympathetic for the TV stations. > > Most, if not all, of the cable only stations get paid by the cable companies to carry their signals. > > The broadcast companies need to compete against companies that not onlt get advertising revenue, but also fees from the cable companies. > > And it is very dishonest to call the proposed fees a "tax" > > Many of those specialty channels are owned by CTV & Global, so they are competing with themselves. Also, cable and satellite deliver more viewers to the broadcasters. Further, IIRC, the current mess was caused by Global & CTV overextending themselves buying up competitors, in addition to problems affecting the financial markets. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 17:05:38 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:05:38 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <997215.96220.qm-d7tsDWDCFVGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> <997215.96220.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091005170538.GE26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 09:48:05AM -0700, Stephen wrote: > I am a bit sympathetic for the TV stations. > > Most, if not all, of the cable only stations get paid by the cable companies to carry their signals. > > The broadcast companies need to compete against companies that not onlt get advertising revenue, but also fees from the cable companies. > > And it is very dishonest to call the proposed fees a "tax" Broadcast stations deliver their signal for free over the air. They are funded by advertising or donations (PBS for example), or government funding to some extent (CBC, TVO, etc). The cable company provides me with a good quality copy of that signal saving me the hassle of putting up an antenna at my house, and I pay them for the convinience. Specialty stations have a different idea, in that they are subscription funded (and sometimes advertising as well). The cable company offers to provide me with those signals too in exchange for money. I could get the same service from a satelite provider like expressvue or shawdirect. Asking me to pay extra money to the cable company to go to the companies who broadcast in my area makes no sense. If everyone stopped using cable and switched to antennas on their house, the broadcast station would be back to the same place they were before the new fee, except they would have lost some customers who were unable to put up an antenna or are now slightly too far away to get a good signal. So there is no good reason for the broadcast stations to get money from the cable companies. It is only because 90% or something of viewers use cable instead of antennas these days that they want to do this. Cable companies make money so let us take some of that because the advertising doesn't pay enough to affort the pile of US programs we buy. If you want money from the cable company, then stop being a broadcast station, give back your broadcast license and frequency, and become a cable/satelite only specialty channel and see how many customers will subscribe to you. You can't have it both ways. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 17:56:06 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:56:06 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <997215.96220.qm-d7tsDWDCFVGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <997215.96220.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ACA3336.2020205@moores.ca> Oddly enough a real tax that the government collects, like the BBC TV tax, I'd be all in favour of. If we can actually manage to make the paradigm shift in the right direction, then this will be a really good way to fund the creation of national cultural content. That content could then be distributed freely via efficient Internet P2P. Stephen wrote: >> From: James Knott > >> A bit OT, but important. >> >> http://www.stopthetvtax.ca/ >> > I am a bit sympathetic for the TV stations. > > Most, if not all, of the cable only stations get paid by the cable companies to carry their signals. > > The broadcast companies need to compete against companies that not onlt get advertising revenue, but also fees from the cable companies. > > And it is very dishonest to call the proposed fees a "tax" > > Stephen > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 17:57:15 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:57:15 -0400 Subject: How secure is the appearance of Ubuntu Update Manager? Message-ID: <4ACA337B.6020206@the-wire.com> News of a slow bruteforce attack http://bsdly.blogspot.com/2009/10/third-time-uncharmed.html on Linux root accounts brought on an outbreak of paranoia -- in this chair, anyway. Since I upgraded to Ubuntu 9.04, Update Manager no longer sets an icon on the taskbar when it finds available updates; it opens a window directly on the desktop listing the upgrades, and when I click to start the process, prompts for my sudo password. It occurs to me that I'm not at all sure that this new window is really Update Manager, rather than something from, say, ECMAScript in a browser. I couldn't find a preference to restore the old (icon on taskbar) behaviour, but, on second thought, the appearance of a process from wherever on the taskbar is no more or less evidence of a secure origin that the appearance of a window on the desktop. I guess the sane workaround is to kill the auto-started process and start Update Manager by hand from the System menu. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 18:11:46 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:11:46 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA3336.2020205-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <997215.96220.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4ACA3336.2020205@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4ACA36E2.3050006@the-wire.com> Darryl Moore wrote: > Oddly enough a real tax that the government collects, like the BBC TV > tax, I'd be all in favour of. > > If we can actually manage to make the paradigm shift in the right > direction, then this will be a really good way to fund the creation of > national cultural content. That content could then be distributed freely > via efficient Internet P2P. This, through no fault of its own, hit one of my hot buttons. Both _DaVinci's City Hall_ and _Intelligence_ got canceled. Both were shows about the use of politics and political power in Canada -- DaVinci could have been Canada's _West Wing_. But no! There are words you can't say on television; two of them are "senator" and "cabinet minister". Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 18:20:34 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:20:34 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA3336.2020205-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <997215.96220.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4ACA3336.2020205@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Darryl Moore wrote: > Oddly enough a real tax that the government collects, like the BBC TV > tax, I'd be all in favour of. > > If we can actually manage to make the paradigm shift in the right > direction, then this will be a really good way to fund the creation of > national cultural content. That content could then be distributed freely > via efficient Internet P2P. Hmm... i. Would that be a tax on the Internet, assumed to imply that all of our usage of the Internet is of "broadcasted" material which needs to be paid for? ii. Or a tax on the TV set, implying that our usage of a television set involves the use of "broadcasted" material which needs to be paid for? Both of those have some pretty big holes that can get poked in them: a) Any time I'm accessing not-broadcasted material on the Internet, then i. isn't valid. At a gross protocol level, there are a number of kinds of traffic where that's really not true... - When I receive messages via SMTP/POP/IMAP - When I connect to a web site where I'm "transacting" some kind of business (whether commercial or not!) - When I connect to a Git repository to pull code (which may be extended infinitely to other protocols ;-) b) Personally, the only time I turn my television set on anymore is to play recorded material on it. I haven't tuned it into a broadcast in many months. Is it proper to charge a TV tax for broadcasts if I'm not tuning into broadcasts? I'm not saying you're wrong (nor that you're right! :-)) - rather that the policy needs to be rather precisely defined, otherwise one might assume things and come to dramatically wrong conclusions based on how actual usage might differ from assumptions inherent in the policy... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Mike Ditka - "If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have given us arms." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mike_ditka.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 18:22:07 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:22:07 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA36E2.3050006-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <997215.96220.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4ACA3336.2020205@moores.ca> <4ACA36E2.3050006@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <4ACA394F.9080204@moores.ca> I'm not quite sure what the point is you are trying to make here, but I doubt very much there was any political interference, particularly of the kind you imply. The quality of shows that can be produced by public broadcasters is as good as any other broadcasters. It has been demonstrated by BBC, PBS, and yes even the CBC, many time over. Given that, and with the threat our current Internet presents to the private broadcasting business models, I am sure that the real solution is to pump more public money into our public broadcasters for drama and cultural production, and leave the public broadcasters to service the live entertainment TV market such as sports, news and special events. Mel Wilson wrote: > Darryl Moore wrote: >> Oddly enough a real tax that the government collects, like the BBC TV >> tax, I'd be all in favour of. >> >> If we can actually manage to make the paradigm shift in the right >> direction, then this will be a really good way to fund the creation of >> national cultural content. That content could then be distributed freely >> via efficient Internet P2P. > > This, through no fault of its own, hit one of my hot buttons. Both > _DaVinci's City Hall_ and _Intelligence_ got canceled. Both were shows > about the use of politics and political power in Canada -- DaVinci could > have been Canada's _West Wing_. But no! There are words you can't say > on television; two of them are "senator" and "cabinet minister". > > Mel. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 18:36:10 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:36:10 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: References: <997215.96220.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4ACA3336.2020205@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4ACA3C9A.5080002@moores.ca> Good points, however if you believe that there are stories that need to be told from a Canadian perspective, that it is right for the government to subsidize the creation of cultural content (especially in these times when free enterprise business models are failing), then it shouldn't really matter if you watch the particular shows or not. Just like it doesn't matter if you have kids as to whether you pay school taxes or not. As for the tax model to best do this. Obviously a direct television tax is out as the line between tv and computer is increasingly becoming grayed and, as I said, conventional broadcast would not be the preferred distribution method. An internet tax might be a possibility as it would be the primary means of distribution. However a household property tax, or a head tax could work too. Again this would be to fund new productions by public broadcasters, not to compensate private producers for perceived losses. In this way, jobs would shift from the private producers to the public broadcasters. The private producers could be relieved of their can-con obligations (which are incompatible with an internet world) and reduce to a more niche market, while the public broadcasters grow to fill the void and assume the can-con requirements. Of course this works against the interests of the private broadcasters as they will necessarily be reduced in size, but it is in the interest of the Canadian public. Christopher Browne wrote: > On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Darryl Moore wrote: >> Oddly enough a real tax that the government collects, like the BBC TV >> tax, I'd be all in favour of. >> >> If we can actually manage to make the paradigm shift in the right >> direction, then this will be a really good way to fund the creation of >> national cultural content. That content could then be distributed freely >> via efficient Internet P2P. > > Hmm... > > i. Would that be a tax on the Internet, assumed to imply that all of > our usage of the Internet is of "broadcasted" material which needs to > be paid for? > > ii. Or a tax on the TV set, implying that our usage of a television > set involves the use of "broadcasted" material which needs to be paid > for? > > Both of those have some pretty big holes that can get poked in them: > > a) Any time I'm accessing not-broadcasted material on the Internet, > then i. isn't valid. At a gross protocol level, there are a number of > kinds of traffic where that's really not true... > - When I receive messages via SMTP/POP/IMAP > - When I connect to a web site where I'm "transacting" some kind of > business (whether commercial or not!) > - When I connect to a Git repository to pull code (which may be > extended infinitely to other protocols ;-) > > b) Personally, the only time I turn my television set on anymore is to > play recorded material on it. I haven't tuned it into a broadcast in > many months. Is it proper to charge a TV tax for broadcasts if I'm > not tuning into broadcasts? > > I'm not saying you're wrong (nor that you're right! :-)) - rather that > the policy needs to be rather precisely defined, otherwise one might > assume things and come to dramatically wrong conclusions based on how > actual usage might differ from assumptions inherent in the policy... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 19:53:53 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 15:53:53 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA3336.2020205-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <997215.96220.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4ACA3336.2020205@moores.ca> Message-ID: <20091005195353.GF26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 01:56:06PM -0400, Darryl Moore wrote: > Oddly enough a real tax that the government collects, like the BBC TV > tax, I'd be all in favour of. I would not. I much prefer that general taxes simply pay for the CBC as it currently is. The UK (and similar programs in many other countries) spend a lot of time and effort to enforce the payment of your tv tax for anyone that has a TV. These days it is becoming very confusing because, is your cell phone a TV? Is your computer a TV? At what point do you have to pay the TV tax? Simpler to just have it paid for out of general revenue and not worry about charging individual users. Too much administrative overhead and enforcement issues. > If we can actually manage to make the paradigm shift in the right > direction, then this will be a really good way to fund the creation of > national cultural content. That content could then be distributed freely > via efficient Internet P2P. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 5 20:53:52 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:53:52 -0400 Subject: OT - Stop The TV Tax In-Reply-To: <4ACA0F63.3040103-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA0B3A.50902@rogers.com> <4ACA0F63.3040103@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4ACA5CE0.3060706@rogers.com> Darryl Moore wrote: > Meh, I'm not too concerned, I got rid of my cable over ten years ago. > > I watch the occasional show via bit torrent these days though. > > I figure this action will simply hasten the demise of the cable > companies and the old broadcast business model. So in the the long run, > this is probably a good thing. > Well, many people rely on cable and I prefer to keep my TV viewing separate from my computer activities. Now, I can receive youtube videos via my Blu-Ray player, but not regular TV shows. Of course, with bandwidth caps, downloading a lot of video is going to cost a *LOT*. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 01:11:03 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 21:11:03 -0400 Subject: How secure is the appearance of Ubuntu Update Manager? In-Reply-To: <4ACA337B.6020206-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACA337B.6020206@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <4ACA9927.8050803@gmail.com> Mel Wilson wrote: > News of a slow bruteforce attack > > http://bsdly.blogspot.com/2009/10/third-time-uncharmed.html > > on Linux root accounts brought on an outbreak of paranoia -- in this > chair, anyway. > > Since I upgraded to Ubuntu 9.04, Update Manager no longer sets an icon > on the taskbar when it finds available updates; it opens a window > directly on the desktop listing the upgrades, and when I click to start > the process, prompts for my sudo password. It occurs to me that I'm not > at all sure that this new window is really Update Manager, rather than > something from, say, ECMAScript in a browser. > > I couldn't find a preference to restore the old (icon on taskbar) > behaviour, but, on second thought, the appearance of a process from > wherever on the taskbar is no more or less evidence of a secure origin > that the appearance of a window on the desktop. > > I guess the sane workaround is to kill the auto-started process and > start Update Manager by hand from the System menu. > > Mel. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > If you're really paranoid, you might want to add yourself to the ubunutu mailing list that announces security alerts and updates. Fro updates do it from the shell (if you don't trust who's presenting the the GUI password manager). $> sudo apt-get update $> sudo apt-get upgrade you will be prompted to enter you admin password once if you don't want to be prompted to select yes during the update you can type the 2nd command with the 'assume yes switch' $> sudo apt-get -y upgrade he upgrade actually start the update, it's doesn't upgrade your system to the next version in the sense of new OS, and the update actually updates the database to determine what's changed so the 2nd command can start to download and install the right stuff hope that helps your paranoia, until someone hijacks your shell ;) -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 02:42:43 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:42:43 -0400 Subject: almost nothing going to /var/log/messages and DNS not resolving remotely Message-ID: <4ACAAEA3.6070102@alteeve.com> Hi all, I just noticed that almost nothing is being written to my /var/log/messages anymore. I noticed this when (related?) my bind server stopped answering queries and I checked. Here are all the archived versions: ikebukuro:~# ls -lah /var/log/ |grep message -rw-r----- 1 root adm 768 2009-10-05 22:34 messages -rw-r----- 1 root adm 4.5K 2009-10-04 07:43 messages.1 -rw-r----- 1 root adm 272 2009-09-27 07:56 messages.2.gz -rw-r----- 1 root adm 306 2009-09-20 07:43 messages.3.gz -rw-r----- 1 root adm 267 2009-09-13 08:03 messages.4.gz And the entirety of the current 'messages': ikebukuro:~# cat /var/log/messages Oct 4 07:43:13 ikebukuro kernel: imklog 3.18.6, log source = /proc/kmsg started. Oct 4 07:43:13 ikebukuro rsyslogd: [origin software="rsyslogd" swVersion="3.18.6" x-pid="2354" x-info="http://www.rsyslog.com"] restart Oct 5 08:01:28 ikebukuro kernel: imklog 3.18.6, log source = /proc/kmsg started. Oct 5 08:01:28 ikebukuro rsyslogd: [origin software="rsyslogd" swVersion="3.18.6" x-pid="2354" x-info="http://www.rsyslog.com"] restart Oct 5 22:34:15 ikebukuro kernel: Kernel logging (proc) stopped. Oct 5 22:34:15 ikebukuro kernel: imklog 3.18.6, log source = /proc/kmsg started. Oct 5 22:34:15 ikebukuro rsyslogd: [origin software="rsyslogd" swVersion="3.18.6" x-pid="8877" x-info="http://www.rsyslog.com"] restart Oct 5 22:34:36 ikebukuro dhcdbd: Started up. I've restarted bind, and even that isn't recorded. I also restarted 'rsyslogd', no difference. Any ideas? madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 02:53:15 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:53:15 -0400 Subject: almost nothing going to /var/log/messages and DNS not resolving remotely In-Reply-To: <4ACAAEA3.6070102-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACAAEA3.6070102@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4ACAB11B.9060608@alteeve.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I just noticed that almost nothing is being written to my > /var/log/messages anymore. I noticed this when (related?) my bind server > stopped answering queries and I checked. Here are all the archived > versions: > > ikebukuro:~# ls -lah /var/log/ |grep message > -rw-r----- 1 root adm 768 2009-10-05 22:34 messages > -rw-r----- 1 root adm 4.5K 2009-10-04 07:43 messages.1 > -rw-r----- 1 root adm 272 2009-09-27 07:56 messages.2.gz > -rw-r----- 1 root adm 306 2009-09-20 07:43 messages.3.gz > -rw-r----- 1 root adm 267 2009-09-13 08:03 messages.4.gz > > And the entirety of the current 'messages': > > ikebukuro:~# cat /var/log/messages > Oct 4 07:43:13 ikebukuro kernel: imklog 3.18.6, log source = /proc/kmsg > started. > Oct 4 07:43:13 ikebukuro rsyslogd: [origin software="rsyslogd" > swVersion="3.18.6" x-pid="2354" x-info="http://www.rsyslog.com"] restart > Oct 5 08:01:28 ikebukuro kernel: imklog 3.18.6, log source = /proc/kmsg > started. > Oct 5 08:01:28 ikebukuro rsyslogd: [origin software="rsyslogd" > swVersion="3.18.6" x-pid="2354" x-info="http://www.rsyslog.com"] restart > Oct 5 22:34:15 ikebukuro kernel: Kernel logging (proc) stopped. > Oct 5 22:34:15 ikebukuro kernel: imklog 3.18.6, log source = /proc/kmsg > started. > Oct 5 22:34:15 ikebukuro rsyslogd: [origin software="rsyslogd" > swVersion="3.18.6" x-pid="8877" x-info="http://www.rsyslog.com"] restart > Oct 5 22:34:36 ikebukuro dhcdbd: Started up. > > I've restarted bind, and even that isn't recorded. I also restarted > 'rsyslogd', no difference. Any ideas? > > madi Darnit, I've been on CentOS machines too much lately... It was writing to 'syslog' (it's a Debian box). Still doesn't answer my DNS issues, but I'll start another thread. madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 02:55:20 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:55:20 -0400 Subject: DNS queries being denied Message-ID: <4ACAB198.8080306@alteeve.com> Ok, new thread, (hopefully) less stupid. My DNS server decided to stop answering queries this evening. When I try a query, ie: ------------------------------------------------------ digimer at lework:~$ dig google.ca @192.139.81.117 ; <<>> DiG 9.5.1-P2 <<>> google.ca @192.139.81.117 ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: REFUSED, id: 55559 ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;google.ca. IN A ;; Query time: 44 msec ;; SERVER: 192.139.81.117#53(192.139.81.117) ;; WHEN: Mon Oct 5 22:49:52 2009 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 27 ------------------------------------------------------ I see in /var/log/syslog: ------------------------------------------------------ named[9307]: client 206.108.5.162#49710: query (cache) 'google.ca/A/IN' denied ------------------------------------------------------ Have I done something silly? Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 03:29:57 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:29:57 -0400 Subject: Solved: was: DNS queries being denied In-Reply-To: <4ACAB198.8080306-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACAB198.8080306@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4ACAB9B5.9050104@alteeve.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Ok, new thread, (hopefully) less stupid. > > My DNS server decided to stop answering queries this evening. When I try > a query, ie: > > ------------------------------------------------------ > digimer at lework:~$ dig google.ca @192.139.81.117 > > ; <<>> DiG 9.5.1-P2 <<>> google.ca @192.139.81.117 > ;; global options: printcmd > ;; Got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: REFUSED, id: 55559 > ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 > ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available > > ;; QUESTION SECTION: > ;google.ca. IN A > > ;; Query time: 44 msec > ;; SERVER: 192.139.81.117#53(192.139.81.117) > ;; WHEN: Mon Oct 5 22:49:52 2009 > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 27 > ------------------------------------------------------ > > I see in /var/log/syslog: > > ------------------------------------------------------ > named[9307]: client 206.108.5.162#49710: query (cache) 'google.ca/A/IN' > denied > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Have I done something silly? > > Madi Apparently, it suddenly needed to have: allow-query { any; }; Added to the options file. I know that it should be restricted to a certain set of hosts, but I've long offered it to clients and friends, so I can't restrict it. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 06:37:00 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 02:37:00 -0400 Subject: Linux Software Picks: Six Alternatives to Photoshop Message-ID: <7c50d3570910052337n1a71115p9cd33fba5bb55530@mail.gmail.com> This article can be found on Maximum PC's web site, here is an excerpt, the URL will follow: "Although many graphics professionals turn to Windows or Mac OS to execute their designs, Linux is far from helpless in this area. While it helps that Adobe Photoshop, the undisputed gold-standard program that most professionals use for raster graphics, runs on Linux through Wine, there are several native Linux programs that offer some of the same functionality. Furthermore, there are many free vector graphics programs that can produce infinitely scalable graphics much like what Adobe Illustrator can do. Aside from the software situation, there is no reason why Linux could not be just as effective with graphics applications as OS X and Windows, since Linux supports many peripherals like tablets out of the box with full plug-and-play support. "Are the Linux programs drop-in replacements for Photoshop and Illustrator? The answer could be either yes and no, depending on the way you look at it and what your needs are. If you compare the Linux alternatives to Photoshop/Illustrator feature-by-feature, the free open source tools will come up short by a significant margin and there is simply no way to get around that fact. If you actually need those features on a day-to-day basis, then you should get your wallet out and purchase Photoshop and/or Illustrator. However, if you can get by with less, the free open source software tools may be enough to get the job done and save you considerable money in the process." http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/linux_software_picks_six_alternatives_photoshop -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 09:42:34 2009 From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 05:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: big win for OSS at the london stock exchange Message-ID: FYI: http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=2568&blogid=14 rday -- ======================================================================== Robert P. J. Day Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry. Web page: http://crashcourse.ca Twitter: http://twitter.com/rpjday ======================================================================== -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 10:34:17 2009 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:34:17 -0400 Subject: [OT] Local TV Matters Message-ID: <4ACB1D29.8030203@rogers.com> http://localtvmatters.ca/ "Since the inception of cable and satellite service, local television signals have been accessible to cable and satellite companies free of charge. Yet over the last five years, your basic cable bill has gone up more than four times the cost of living." Comment: The CRTC can rule that cable companies must pay local TV to carry their signals, but also rule that cable companies **may not** raise their fees for basic cable. This is why the cable companies are fighting so hard. And lying by calling this proposal a "tax". The CRTC can say that the pie is not getting any bigger, but the cable companies piece of it will be a little smaller. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 13:25:25 2009 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 09:25:25 -0400 Subject: looking to purchase a Linux compatible laptop ... recommendations? Message-ID: <200910060925.26490.icanprogram@295.ca> A colleague of mine is looking to purchase a new laptop to use with Linux. I don't have any real laptop + Linux experience. Which brand should he be looking at? which distro? Thanks in advance. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 13:42:28 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 09:42:28 -0400 Subject: Linux Software Picks: Six Alternatives to Photoshop In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910052337n1a71115p9cd33fba5bb55530-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910052337n1a71115p9cd33fba5bb55530@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACB4944.3050409@moores.ca> Brilliant! Some of those I never knew about. Thanks. Interesting they don't mention Kolourpaint. I guess they figure Krita is pretty close, and I suppose superior. Kolourpaint has the advantage that it is simpler and anyone who has used MS paint before will be quite at home using it. I'd really like to see a Gnome version of Kolourpaint. Michael Lauzon wrote: > This article can be found on Maximum PC's web site, here is an > excerpt, the URL will follow: > > "Although many graphics professionals turn to Windows or Mac OS to > execute their designs, Linux is far from helpless in this area. While > it helps that Adobe Photoshop, the undisputed gold-standard program > that most professionals use for raster graphics, runs on Linux through > Wine, there are several native Linux programs that offer some of the > same functionality. Furthermore, there are many free vector graphics > programs that can produce infinitely scalable graphics much like what > Adobe Illustrator can do. Aside from the software situation, there is > no reason why Linux could not be just as effective with graphics > applications as OS X and Windows, since Linux supports many > peripherals like tablets out of the box with full plug-and-play > support. > > "Are the Linux programs drop-in replacements for Photoshop and > Illustrator? The answer could be either yes and no, depending on the > way you look at it and what your needs are. If you compare the Linux > alternatives to Photoshop/Illustrator feature-by-feature, the free > open source tools will come up short by a significant margin and there > is simply no way to get around that fact. If you actually need those > features on a day-to-day basis, then you should get your wallet out > and purchase Photoshop and/or Illustrator. However, if you can get by > with less, the free open source software tools may be enough to get > the job done and save you considerable money in the process." > > http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/linux_software_picks_six_alternatives_photoshop > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 13:58:07 2009 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking to purchase a Linux compatible laptop ... recommendations? Message-ID: <748180.55018.qm@web88102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> bob 295 wrote: > A colleague of mine is looking to purchase a new laptop to use with Linux. > I don't have any real laptop + Linux experience. Which brand should he be > looking at? which distro? MSI sells laptops without an OS. You save the Microsoft tax. I have been using one for two years and am happy with it. But I run XP (a retail version). I am a fan of the Ubuntu distro and would suggest that first. You can get MSI laptops at Computers and Peripherals, on Steeles, just east of Keele Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 14:11:45 2009 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 10:11:45 -0400 Subject: Vector Tool for Schematics Message-ID: <4ACB5021.1020004@sympatico.ca> The article on Linux graphics tools reminded me that I have an upcoming cottage project for which I should draw some schematics and plan out what I'm going to do before I royally mess it up. In a nutshell, I will be doing some foundation work underneath the cabin (no basement) and would like to lay out the lower part of the cabin to scale and make schematic plans of the foundation work in some detail. It won't be as detailed as a professional blueprint and I don't need something as sophisticated as a CAD program. I think something that I can keep to scale and be able to make infinite changes without using an eraser. The scale thing could be something as simple as a grid on the screen. I was going to look at Inkscape, Xfig and Kivio, which have been mentioned on previous posts, but have not used any of them to date. Quite a while back, I did schematics of a cabinet I wanted to build using using Lotus Freelance Plus. It did the job then and would probably have worked for what I need now. I've given up on IBM porting it to Linux. Anyone have any experience making schematics for building/renovations that could make a recommendation? Thanks, John (oops, kind of ended up with a long post... sorry) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 14:18:08 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 10:18:08 -0400 Subject: Vector Tool for Schematics In-Reply-To: <4ACB5021.1020004-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB5021.1020004@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4ACB51A0.4090202@moores.ca> Qcad John Moniz wrote: > The article on Linux graphics tools reminded me that I have an upcoming > cottage project for which I should draw some schematics and plan out > what I'm going to do before I royally mess it up. > > In a nutshell, I will be doing some foundation work underneath the cabin > (no basement) and would like to lay out the lower part of the cabin to > scale and make schematic plans of the foundation work in some detail. It > won't be as detailed as a professional blueprint and I don't need > something as sophisticated as a CAD program. I think something that I > can keep to scale and be able to make infinite changes without using an > eraser. The scale thing could be something as simple as a grid on the > screen. I was going to look at Inkscape, Xfig and Kivio, which have been > mentioned on previous posts, but have not used any of them to date. > > Quite a while back, I did schematics of a cabinet I wanted to build > using using Lotus Freelance Plus. It did the job then and would probably > have worked for what I need now. I've given up on IBM porting it to Linux. > > Anyone have any experience making schematics for building/renovations > that could make a recommendation? > > Thanks, > > John > (oops, kind of ended up with a long post... sorry) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 14:26:20 2009 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 10:26:20 -0400 Subject: Vector Tool for Schematics In-Reply-To: <4ACB51A0.4090202-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB5021.1020004@sympatico.ca> <4ACB51A0.4090202@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4ACB538C.2050808@linuxcaffe.ca> Darryl Moore wrote: > Qcad I second that, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 14:32:59 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:32:59 -0400 Subject: DNS queries being denied In-Reply-To: <4ACAB198.8080306-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACAB198.8080306@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20091006143259.GG26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 10:55:20PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > Ok, new thread, (hopefully) less stupid. > > My DNS server decided to stop answering queries this evening. When I try > a query, ie: > > ------------------------------------------------------ > digimer at lework:~$ dig google.ca @192.139.81.117 > > ; <<>> DiG 9.5.1-P2 <<>> google.ca @192.139.81.117 > ;; global options: printcmd > ;; Got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: REFUSED, id: 55559 > ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 > ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available > > ;; QUESTION SECTION: > ;google.ca. IN A > > ;; Query time: 44 msec > ;; SERVER: 192.139.81.117#53(192.139.81.117) > ;; WHEN: Mon Oct 5 22:49:52 2009 > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 27 > ------------------------------------------------------ > > I see in /var/log/syslog: > > ------------------------------------------------------ > named[9307]: client 206.108.5.162#49710: query (cache) 'google.ca/A/IN' > denied > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Have I done something silly? Well bind started to be paranoid at some version. It no longer accepts remote queries by default, only queries from directly connected subnets. I run with this for /etc/bind/named.conf.options: acl "trusted" { 172.30.0.0/16; localhost; localnets; }; options { allow-query { any; }; allow-recursion { trusted; }; allow-query-cache { trusted; }; directory "/var/cache/bind"; // If there is a firewall between you and nameservers you want // to talk to, you may need to fix the firewall to allow multiple // ports to talk. See http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/800113 // If your ISP provided one or more IP addresses for stable // nameservers, you probably want to use them as forwarders. // Uncomment the following block, and insert the addresses replacing // the all-0's placeholder. // forwarders { // 0.0.0.0; // }; auth-nxdomain no; # conform to RFC1035 listen-on-v6 { any; }; }; The idea here is that 172.30.0.0/16 is not directly connected to this box (localnets) but should be allowed to do DNS requests through this dns server. I believe I have it configured to allow queries for local data from anyone, and forwarded lookups and caching for the trusted nets only. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 14:36:14 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:36:14 -0400 Subject: [OT] Local TV Matters In-Reply-To: <4ACB1D29.8030203-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB1D29.8030203@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091006143614.GH26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 06:34:17AM -0400, Stephen wrote: > http://localtvmatters.ca/ > > "Since the inception of cable and satellite service, local television > signals have been accessible to cable and satellite companies free of > charge. Yet over the last five years, your basic cable bill has gone up > more than four times the cost of living." > > Comment: > > The CRTC can rule that cable companies must pay local TV to carry their > signals, but also rule that cable companies **may not** raise their fees > for basic cable. > > This is why the cable companies are fighting so hard. And lying by > calling this proposal a "tax". > > The CRTC can say that the pie is not getting any bigger, but the cable > companies piece of it will be a little smaller. But as far as I can tell the cable companies are requiered to carry the local stations and to place them in the low channel numbers. So does this mean the cable companies now get the choice of not carrying the local stations? I don't much care for the cable companies, but I still consider this completely unreasonable. It is a tax, but maybe not on consumers, but on cable companies. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 14:38:25 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:38:25 -0400 Subject: looking to purchase a Linux compatible laptop ... recommendations? In-Reply-To: <200910060925.26490.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <200910060925.26490.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <20091006143825.GI26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 09:25:25AM -0400, bob 295 wrote: > A colleague of mine is looking to purchase a new laptop to use with Linux. > I don't have any real laptop + Linux experience. Which brand should he be > looking at? which distro? > > Thanks in advance. You generally can't go wrong with a thinkpad. Well as long as you avoid one with ATI graphics (which are just a pain under linux. I really hope this changes some day since it is very nice hardware, burdened with crappy drivers). I think they are even having yet another sale (redflagdeals.com should have the coupon code). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 14:45:45 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 10:45:45 -0400 Subject: [OT] Local TV Matters In-Reply-To: <20091006143614.GH26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB1D29.8030203@rogers.com> <20091006143614.GH26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ACB5819.9050103@moores.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > But as far as I can tell the cable companies are requiered to carry the > local stations and to place them in the low channel numbers. So does > this mean the cable companies now get the choice of not carrying the > local stations? > > I don't much care for the cable companies, but I still consider this > completely unreasonable. It is a tax, but maybe not on consumers, > but on cable companies. > To hell with the cable companies choice. What about the consumers choice not to pay for something they don't want to receive. Frankly the cable companies have been doing the local broadcasters a service by ensuring their signals reach 99% of their market area. Supposedly they then make more money off of advertising. This whole thing is the wrong 'solution' to the wrong problem. As far as I'm concerned they are welcome to this tax and they should feel free to make it as big as they whould like too. It will only hasten their demise, which can't happen soon enough. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 14:48:09 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:48:09 -0400 Subject: Vector Tool for Schematics In-Reply-To: <4ACB5021.1020004-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB5021.1020004@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20091006144809.GJ26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 10:11:45AM -0400, John Moniz wrote: > The article on Linux graphics tools reminded me that I have an upcoming > cottage project for which I should draw some schematics and plan out > what I'm going to do before I royally mess it up. > > In a nutshell, I will be doing some foundation work underneath the cabin > (no basement) and would like to lay out the lower part of the cabin to > scale and make schematic plans of the foundation work in some detail. It > won't be as detailed as a professional blueprint and I don't need > something as sophisticated as a CAD program. I think something that I > can keep to scale and be able to make infinite changes without using an > eraser. The scale thing could be something as simple as a grid on the > screen. I was going to look at Inkscape, Xfig and Kivio, which have been > mentioned on previous posts, but have not used any of them to date. > > Quite a while back, I did schematics of a cabinet I wanted to build > using using Lotus Freelance Plus. It did the job then and would probably > have worked for what I need now. I've given up on IBM porting it to > Linux. > > Anyone have any experience making schematics for building/renovations > that could make a recommendation? Well you could try qcad. They release the older versions as GPL, so most distributions have packages of it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 14:54:14 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:54:14 -0400 Subject: [OT] Local TV Matters In-Reply-To: <4ACB5819.9050103-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB1D29.8030203@rogers.com> <20091006143614.GH26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ACB5819.9050103@moores.ca> Message-ID: <20091006145414.GK26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 10:45:45AM -0400, Darryl Moore wrote: > To hell with the cable companies choice. What about the consumers choice > not to pay for something they don't want to receive. Well right now if You wanted to use cable for specialty channels but an antenna for local stations, there is no way to skip 'basic cable'. I believe teh CRTC actually makes it mandetory that cable companies must carry the local stations. So the consumer has no choice, in part because the cable company has no choice. > Frankly the cable companies have been doing the local broadcasters a > service by ensuring their signals reach 99% of their market area. > Supposedly they then make more money off of advertising. Absolutely. Perhaps if they started showing something people wanted to see and didn't spend so much money on buying US shows there would be more money for them. Try cheaper shows. Cheap doesn't mean bad. > This whole thing is the wrong 'solution' to the wrong problem. As far as > I'm concerned they are welcome to this tax and they should feel free to > make it as big as they whould like too. It will only hasten their > demise, which can't happen soon enough. Certainly. If the broadcast stations can't stay in business on their current business model, perhaps some of them should go out of business and let someone else use that frequency that can run a business. It sounds like CHCH is doing a complete makeover to a much more locally focused station (which it used to be many years ago). Should be a nice change. Back when they ran local shows like Smith & Smith's comedy stuff people actually watched them. CityTV used to be great, but I can't honestly remember the last time they were worth watching now. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 15:28:07 2009 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:28:07 -0400 Subject: Vector Tool for Schematics In-Reply-To: <4ACB538C.2050808-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB5021.1020004@sympatico.ca> <4ACB51A0.4090202@moores.ca> <4ACB538C.2050808@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <4ACB6207.9050102@sympatico.ca> David J Patrick wrote: > Darryl Moore wrote: >> Qcad > > I second that, > djp > -- > I didn't know about Qcad but it looks like the right tool (even though I wasn't looking for a CAD program). I thought I had to purchase it and was prepared to do it, but as per Lennart's reply, older versions are free and it's all I would need. Thanks for the replies. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 15:58:08 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:58:08 -0400 Subject: [OT] Local TV Matters In-Reply-To: <20091006143614.GH26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB1D29.8030203@rogers.com> <20091006143614.GH26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ACB6910.2070500@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > But as far as I can tell the cable companies are requiered to carry the > local stations and to place them in the low channel numbers. So does > this mean the cable companies now get the choice of not carrying the > local stations? > > I certainly hope so and they should also lose simultaneous substitution. There's so little content on the Canadian channels that I watch, that doesn't originate in the U.S., that I could happily drop the Canadian channels. Why should I be forced to pay for something that I don't watch? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 16:52:02 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 09:52:02 -0700 Subject: looking to purchase a Linux compatible laptop ... recommendations? In-Reply-To: <200910060925.26490.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <200910060925.26490.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0910060952q562c6457r5422a3c36d968416@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:25 AM, bob 295 wrote: > A colleague of mine is looking to purchase a new laptop to use with Linux. > I don't have any real laptop + Linux experience. ? ? Which brand should he be > looking at? ? which distro? > > Thanks in advance. > > bob > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > What features is he looking for? Even a machine with a cheap i915 card seems to do compiz these days, but recommendations are going to vary depending on what he needs it for. If it's just web then some cheaper machine should be fine. If he wants media/graphics then an ATI card should be OK in most cases. If he wants to run Wine/Cedega and games then something with an NVidia card is going to be a better bet. And then there's the smaller options like the EEE's or the mini-10's too. Less power, more portability. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 17:28:48 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:28:48 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? Message-ID: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/28/charlie-brooker-microsoft-mac-windows -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 17:50:45 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:50:45 -0400 Subject: [OT] Local TV Matters In-Reply-To: <4ACB6910.2070500-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB1D29.8030203@rogers.com> <20091006143614.GH26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ACB6910.2070500@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091006175045.GL26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 11:58:08AM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > But as far as I can tell the cable companies are requiered to carry the > > local stations and to place them in the low channel numbers. So does > > this mean the cable companies now get the choice of not carrying the > > local stations? > > > > > > I certainly hope so and they should also lose simultaneous > substitution. There's so little content on the Canadian channels that I > watch, that doesn't originate in the U.S., that I could happily drop the > Canadian channels. Why should I be forced to pay for something that I > don't watch? Certainly only seems fair. If they have to pay to carry the signal they should also be allowed to not carry them and to not substitute them (and their ads) for the channels people choose to watch. Oh and do US cable companies near the canadian border have to pay too? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 18:22:19 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:22:19 -0400 Subject: [OT] Local TV Matters In-Reply-To: <20091006175045.GL26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB1D29.8030203@rogers.com> <20091006143614.GH26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ACB6910.2070500@rogers.com> <20091006175045.GL26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ACB8ADB.60908@moores.ca> Yes, and speaking of the relevancy of cable companies and broadcasters to our modern lives, BBC announced today a new Dr. Who logo. http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2009/10_october/06/doctor.shtml Meh, I liked the old one better. There is some speculation that the next episode is coming out for halloween. Of course you wont find it on CBC for weeks or months after that. Most people anywhere on the planet who have any interest in watching this will have already seen it by... oh... about the third day after the first broadcast. Thank you Bit Torrent. Local TV does NOT matter, (in it's current form) Neither does cable. Let them both die please, then let the local broadcasters be reborn in the form of a YouTube channel, a pod cast, or something similar. Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 11:58:08AM -0400, James Knott wrote: >> Lennart Sorensen wrote: >>> But as far as I can tell the cable companies are requiered to carry the >>> local stations and to place them in the low channel numbers. So does >>> this mean the cable companies now get the choice of not carrying the >>> local stations? >>> >>> >> I certainly hope so and they should also lose simultaneous >> substitution. There's so little content on the Canadian channels that I >> watch, that doesn't originate in the U.S., that I could happily drop the >> Canadian channels. Why should I be forced to pay for something that I >> don't watch? > > Certainly only seems fair. If they have to pay to carry the signal > they should also be allowed to not carry them and to not substitute them > (and their ads) for the channels people choose to watch. > > Oh and do US cable companies near the canadian border have to pay too? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 18:35:18 2009 From: gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (George Nicol) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:35:18 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> Point taken, Evan. From the article: "I know other operating systems are available. But *their advocates* seem even creepier, snootier, and more insistent than Mac owners. The harder they try to convince me, the more I'm repelled." (emphasis my own) A very good illustration of why you promote the correct style of Linux evangelism that you've always recommended on this listserv. To some degree, railing against Microsoft is okay when preaching to the choir at TLUG but always counterproductive when we take the fight to them and attack them on a battlefield they hold. The "ice house" incident comes to mind. I don't want to dredge up old conflicts but I would like to ask DJP for the benefit of his experienced opinion. David, you've tried both extremes of evangelism: A 10 foot Tux in their face, and the quiet availability of Linux and OSS in your fine establishment. Which has gained the most converts? So easy to bash MS, so hard to resist the temptation. I'm just asking. Please, no flames folks. Thanks. . -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 20:45:36 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 16:45:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <4ACB8DE6.4010205-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> Message-ID: <7fc604580910061345l60453c23ye3104ba377f1489a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/6 George Nicol > A very good illustration of why you promote the correct style of > Linux evangelism that you've always recommended on this listserv. > Thanks, George. I liked the article because its tone, I wasn't really going for points :-) . I myself have been around Mac-heads who scoff if my Linux wireless isn't auto-discovered or my PulseAudio isn't talking right to ... you get the idea. My favourite bit was the quote just before the one you liked: I know Windows is awful. Everyone knows Windows is awful. Windows is like > the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can > do about it. > - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 21:39:55 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:39:55 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <4ACB8DE6.4010205-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 2:35 PM, George Nicol wrote: > A very good illustration of why you promote the correct style of > Linux evangelism that you've always recommended on this listserv. > To some degree, railing against Microsoft is okay when preaching > to the choir at TLUG but always counterproductive when we take > the fight to them and attack them on a battlefield they hold. I think it's an error to "play the game" of railing against Microsoft. It's a particularly bad idea as the software that people keep promoting gets to be more and more conformant with "Microsoft-ish" approaches, as opposed to "Unix Philosophy" approaches. Pointer back to Gancarz... - small is beautiful - make each program do one thing well - use software leverage to your advantage - avoid captive user interfaces - make every program a filter - use shell scripts to increase leverage If we look at applications that people laud rather a lot, we get pretty much the diametric opposite to these principles with such notables as: - OpenOffice.org - Web browsers at large The recent discussion about OpenOffice.org was pretty much the epitome of "Microsoft magic", what with the following diagnostics: a) "I never could figure out what made it work again" b) "There were several .openoffice.* directories to delete" c) "Reboot to fix it!" It seems to me that we're going in absolutely the wrong direction with both "office software" and web browsers... In both cases, they violate the "Unix Philosophy" in *ALL* of the ways described above. The tendancy to hack modules onto Firefox is just making this *worse.* http://www.cccs.de/wiki/pub/Main/VorTraege/uzbl-print.pdf There are, in the case of web browsing, a couple of possible answers... - uzbl - surf These are in somewhat nascent phases, where they're pretty deliberately unfriendly. I don't believe that *needs* to be permanently the case; it's perfectly reasonable for "creature comforts" to grow around them. In contrast, the "captive UIs" surrounding document writing software seem to also be bound up inside scripts that seem intended to make it harder to get at what something like OpenOffice.org is really doing, inside. (Witness the whole "I had to delete all the .openoffice* directories, and reboot" thing). It's unfair to bash Microsoft for going down particular roads when we seem hell-bent on taking the Same Sulphury Path! -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Pablo Picasso - "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/pablo_picasso.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 6 22:30:20 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 18:30:20 -0400 Subject: [OT] Local TV Matters In-Reply-To: <4ACB8ADB.60908-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB1D29.8030203@rogers.com> <20091006143614.GH26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ACB6910.2070500@rogers.com> <20091006175045.GL26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ACB8ADB.60908@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Darryl Moore wrote: > Yes, and speaking of the relevancy of cable companies and broadcasters > to our modern lives, BBC announced today a new Dr. Who logo. > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2009/10_october/06/doctor.shtml > > Meh, I liked the old one better. The new one is definitely *clever*, which fits with the program. In effect, the problem I can identify with it is that it looks rather too slick and modern for a Tardis that has a lot of "ancient" going on. If it weren't so glossy, I'd think it better. > There is some speculation that the next episode is coming out for > halloween. Of course you wont find it on CBC for weeks or months after > that. Most people anywhere on the planet who have any interest in > watching this will have already seen it by... oh... about the third day > after the first broadcast. Thank you Bit Torrent. I doubt it's as long as 3 days! :-) > Local TV does NOT matter, (in it's current form) > Neither does cable. > Let them both die please, then let the local broadcasters be reborn in > the form of a YouTube channel, a pod cast, or something similar. It seems likely that newspapers will die off quite a bit before any of the "TV apparatus" does. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Jonathan Swift - "May you live every day of your life." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jonathan_swift.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 03:58:40 2009 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:58:40 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACBD9B0.1171.1F033234@sciguy.vex.net> Well-put! I just wish I had writen it! My favourite quote (apart from Evan's already-cited piss-in-the-subway quote): [The Windows 7 promo] is so terrible, it induces an entirely new emotion: a blend of vertigo, disgust, anger and embarrassment which I like to call "shitasmia". It not only creates this emotion: it defines it. It's the most shitasmic cultural artefact in history. The whole article is truly inspired. Thanks for sharing, Evan. Paul -------------------------------------------------- On 6 Oct 2009 at 13:28, Evan Leibovitch wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/28/charlie-brooker-microsoft- mac-windows -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 04:05:21 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 00:05:21 -0400 Subject: Vector Tool for Schematics In-Reply-To: <4ACB6207.9050102-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB5021.1020004@sympatico.ca> <4ACB51A0.4090202@moores.ca> <4ACB538C.2050808@linuxcaffe.ca> <4ACB6207.9050102@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20091007000521.a2b8d711.hgibson@eol.ca> On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:28:07 -0400 John Moniz wrote: > David J Patrick wrote: > > Darryl Moore wrote: > >> Qcad > > > > I second that, > > djp > > -- > > > I didn't know about Qcad but it looks like the right tool (even though I > wasn't looking for a CAD program). I thought I had to purchase it and > was prepared to do it, but as per Lennart's reply, older versions are > free and it's all I would need. I third that. I have been useing Qcad for home reno drawings, and it is completely adequate for the job. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 04:11:23 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 00:11:23 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail Message-ID: I've set up a system here using labels, as per this: http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/02/gmail-adds-folders-by-improving-label.html and this: http://www.geek.com/articles/feature/feature-getting-things-done-with-labels-and-filters-in-gmail-20-20071217/ but messages that are labelled as TLUG still go to inbox instead of being moved to the same location as all others labelled the same way. Anyone else use this system with gmail and have an idea what I'm missing? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 04:15:27 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 00:15:27 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > I've set up a system here using labels, as per this: > > http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/02/gmail-adds-folders-by-improving-label.html > > and this: > > http://www.geek.com/articles/feature/feature-getting-things-done-with-labels-and-filters-in-gmail-20-20071217/ > > but messages that are labelled as TLUG still go to inbox instead of > being moved to the same location as all others labelled the same way. > > Anyone else use this system with gmail and have an idea what I'm missing? Never mind, I think I just needed to add 'skip the inbox'. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 04:38:28 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 00:38:28 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> Message-ID: <200910070038.28281.amarjan@pobox.com> On October 6, 2009 05:39:55 pm Christopher Browne wrote: > It seems to me that we're going in absolutely the wrong direction with > both "office software" and web browsers... In both cases, they > violate the "Unix Philosophy" in *ALL* of the ways described above. > > The tendancy to hack modules onto Firefox is just making this *worse.* Firefox in particular, like Seamonkey before it, isn't in the Unix tradition -- it's the spiritual descendent of Emacs. Really: Emacs is a lisp VM that specialises in text manipulation, and Firefox is a javascript VM that specialises in webby networky stuff. To wit: https://bespin.mozilla.com/ No comment on OpenOffice -- that train wreck makes MS Office look good. As a troublsehooting aside, on my current install i have a ~/.ooo3 settings directory, and OO.o processes tend to be called soffice.bin -- references to Star Office are still hard coded all over the place, though there are fewer with every major release. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 05:45:47 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 01:45:47 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> Thomas Milne wrote: > I've set up a system here using labels, as per this: > > http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/02/gmail-adds-folders-by-improving-label.html > > and this: > > http://www.geek.com/articles/feature/feature-getting-things-done-with-labels-and-filters-in-gmail-20-20071217/ > > but messages that are labelled as TLUG still go to inbox instead of > being moved to the same location as all others labelled the same way. > > Anyone else use this system with gmail and have an idea what I'm missing? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > I think all emails go into your inbox, but when you click on you folder you will see the filter emails there. i.e TLUG from here if you do a 'select all' and then click on the inbox then select 'move to' (TLUG) you can move the email from the inbox to one of the filters folders (TLUG). I ended up installing Thunderbird and filtering my email from my gmail account properly into their respective folders. Also no more logging into to my web gmail a/c. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 09:19:34 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:19:34 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <4ACC2B0B.2020103-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Thomas Milne wrote: >> >> I've set up a system here using labels, as per this: >> >> >> http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/02/gmail-adds-folders-by-improving-label.html >> >> and this: >> >> >> http://www.geek.com/articles/feature/feature-getting-things-done-with-labels-and-filters-in-gmail-20-20071217/ >> >> but messages that are labelled as TLUG still go to inbox instead of >> being moved to the same location as all others labelled the same way. >> >> Anyone else use this system with gmail and have an idea what I'm missing? >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > I think all emails go into your inbox, but when you click on you folder you > will see the filter emails there. i.e TLUG > > from here if you do a 'select all' and then click on the inbox then select > 'move to' (TLUG) you can move the email from the inbox to one of the filters > folders (TLUG). > > I ended up installing Thunderbird and filtering my email from my gmail > account properly into their respective folders. Also no more logging into to > my web gmail a/c. > Ideally, I would just install Claws Mail everywhere I went, but that kinda defeats the purpose of GMail ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 12:13:15 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 08:13:15 -0400 Subject: Anyone willing to share their mozpluggerrc? Message-ID: <20091007121315.GA8390@waltdnes.org> With the removal of mplayer-plugin from Gentoo linux (due to dependancy on outdated libs) I find that some embedded videos no longer play on my machine. I've installed mozplugger, but even after RTFM, the setup is intimidating. I would appreciate a working sample. I use mplayer as my video player of choice. Another question is how do you set up a new type when you first encounter it? -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 13:53:02 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 09:53:02 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <4ACB8DE6.4010205-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> Message-ID: <20091007135302.GM26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 02:35:18PM -0400, George Nicol wrote: > Point taken, Evan. > > From the article: "I know other operating systems are available. > But *their advocates* seem even creepier, snootier, and more > insistent than Mac owners. The harder they try to convince me, > the more I'm repelled." (emphasis my own) > > A very good illustration of why you promote the correct style of > Linux evangelism that you've always recommended on this listserv. > To some degree, railing against Microsoft is okay when preaching > to the choir at TLUG but always counterproductive when we take > the fight to them and attack them on a battlefield they hold. > The "ice house" incident comes to mind. I don't want to dredge > up old conflicts but I would like to ask DJP for the benefit of > his experienced opinion. Well clearly this particular person doesn't want a good system. He explicitly said so. He likes dealing with an unreliable system. Some people don't believe in listening to advice, they only want to do what they have already decided. Some people can't admit that their original decision is no longer the best choice. That would be admitting to making a mistake to some extent. > David, you've tried both extremes of evangelism: A 10 foot Tux > in their face, and the quiet availability of Linux and OSS in > your fine establishment. Which has gained the most converts? > > So easy to bash MS, so hard to resist the temptation. > > I'm just asking. Please, no flames folks. Thanks. Well most people use windows because it is what comes on the computer, not because they picked it. Or they use windows because they happen to use some application that only comes for windows. Mac users to a large extent and linux users almost entirely have specificaly chosen to use their system. Windows users pretty much never made that choice, they just live with it. It's like a guy once told me: His dad kept on buying fords because he had alweays bought fords, and assumed all other cars were just as unreliable so why buy anything else. He was content to deal with the problems he was used to rather than try something else. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 14:05:44 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 10:05:44 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> Message-ID: <20091007140544.GN26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 05:39:55PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 2:35 PM, George Nicol wrote: > > A very good illustration of why you promote the correct style of > > Linux evangelism that you've always recommended on this listserv. > > To some degree, railing against Microsoft is okay when preaching > > to the choir at TLUG but always counterproductive when we take > > the fight to them and attack them on a battlefield they hold. > > I think it's an error to "play the game" of railing against Microsoft. > > It's a particularly bad idea as the software that people keep > promoting gets to be more and more conformant with "Microsoft-ish" > approaches, as opposed to "Unix Philosophy" approaches. > > Pointer back to Gancarz... > - small is beautiful > - make each program do one thing well > - use software leverage to your advantage > - avoid captive user interfaces > - make every program a filter > - use shell scripts to increase leverage > > If we look at applications that people laud rather a lot, we get > pretty much the diametric opposite to these principles with such > notables as: > - OpenOffice.org > - Web browsers at large > > The recent discussion about OpenOffice.org was pretty much the epitome > of "Microsoft magic", what with the following diagnostics: > a) "I never could figure out what made it work again" > b) "There were several .openoffice.* directories to delete" > c) "Reboot to fix it!" > > It seems to me that we're going in absolutely the wrong direction with > both "office software" and web browsers... In both cases, they > violate the "Unix Philosophy" in *ALL* of the ways described above. > > The tendancy to hack modules onto Firefox is just making this *worse.* > http://www.cccs.de/wiki/pub/Main/VorTraege/uzbl-print.pdf > > There are, in the case of web browsing, a couple of possible answers... > - uzbl > - surf > > These are in somewhat nascent phases, where they're pretty > deliberately unfriendly. I don't believe that *needs* to be > permanently the case; it's perfectly reasonable for "creature > comforts" to grow around them. > > In contrast, the "captive UIs" surrounding document writing software > seem to also be bound up inside scripts that seem intended to make it > harder to get at what something like OpenOffice.org is really doing, > inside. (Witness the whole "I had to delete all the .openoffice* > directories, and reboot" thing). > > It's unfair to bash Microsoft for going down particular roads when we > seem hell-bent on taking the Same Sulphury Path! Have you noticed that practically all open source applications that are unstable and annoying all seem to have started out as closed source commercial applications before someone gave up on them and tossed the whole thing over the fence? Certainly the case for mozilla (netscape), openoffice (staroffice), and I am sure I could think of some more if I tried. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 14:29:15 2009 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 10:29:15 -0400 Subject: Vector Tool for Schematics In-Reply-To: <20091007000521.a2b8d711.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACB5021.1020004@sympatico.ca> <4ACB51A0.4090202@moores.ca> <4ACB538C.2050808@linuxcaffe.ca> <4ACB6207.9050102@sympatico.ca> <20091007000521.a2b8d711.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4ACCA5BB.6050905@sympatico.ca> Howard Gibson wrote: > On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:28:07 -0400 > John Moniz wrote: > > >> David J Patrick wrote: >> >>> Darryl Moore wrote: >>> >>>> Qcad >>>> >>> I second that, >>> djp >>> -- >>> >>> >> I didn't know about Qcad but it looks like the right tool (even though I >> wasn't looking for a CAD program). I thought I had to purchase it and >> was prepared to do it, but as per Lennart's reply, older versions are >> free and it's all I would need. >> > > I third that. > > I have been useing Qcad for home reno drawings, and it is completely adequate for the job. > > I have a learning curve ahead of me, but the documentation looks very professional. I think it will be worthwhile learning this one. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 15:33:38 2009 From: pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 08:33:38 -0700 Subject: for those that like to hack their router - netgear WNR3500L In-Reply-To: <4AC4167E.6090000-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://tinyurl.com/yd5j3mh A "light" review: http://tinyurl.com/ydcrqbm -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 15:35:10 2009 From: pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 08:35:10 -0700 Subject: London Stock Exchange - $Soft out, Linux/Solaris in In-Reply-To: References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49667a661c6f693fe86bf87028c54558.squirrel@petelancashire.com> London Stock Exchange is dumping a .NET- based system for an open source -based system: http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=2568 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 15:45:38 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 11:45:38 -0400 Subject: London Stock Exchange - $Soft out, Linux/Solaris in In-Reply-To: <49667a661c6f693fe86bf87028c54558.squirrel-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> <49667a661c6f693fe86bf87028c54558.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Message-ID: <20091007154538.GO26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 08:35:10AM -0700, Pete Lancashire wrote: > London Stock Exchange is dumping a .NET- > based system for an open source -based system: > > http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=2568 And as a result so is one in italy owned by the london stock exchange, and the one in norway has canceled plans to move to the .net based one and is going with the same choice as london (and italy) which apparently leaves only southafrica using the .net software and they are contemplating moving over as well. That would leave microsoft with zero customers for their trading software. Apparently the fact the linux software is almost 10 times faster at doing a trade than the .net software was apparently not important compared to cost savings, flexibility and speed of adding new features and support. Nice to know somebody gets it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 15:49:05 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 11:49:05 -0400 Subject: for those that like to hack their router - netgear WNR3500L In-Reply-To: References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091007154905.GP26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 08:33:38AM -0700, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > http://tinyurl.com/yd5j3mh > > A "light" review: > > http://tinyurl.com/ydcrqbm Damn it. No 5GHz support. Crap! Oh well, not interesting after all then. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 16:09:03 2009 From: pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 09:09:03 -0700 Subject: London Stock Exchange - $Soft out, Linux/Solaris in In-Reply-To: <49667a661c6f693fe86bf87028c54558.squirrel-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <4AC4167E.6090000@gmail.com> <49667a661c6f693fe86bf87028c54558.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Message-ID: <174922c8dcb2b45459bbcdf29cad0a67.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Sorry this had all ready been posted by Robert Day -pete lost in the world of spam -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 16:01:53 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 12:01:53 -0400 Subject: scanner recommendation Message-ID: <4ACCBB71.4030102@alteeve.com> Hi all, Can anyone recommend a half-decent flat-bed scanner (8.5" x 11" is fine) that works well with Linux/Ubuntu (64bit)? Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 16:32:00 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 12:32:00 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <20091007135302.GM26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> <20091007135302.GM26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <7fc604580910070932k37ce3942iedbe0e04bde3612@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/7 Lennart Sorensen Well clearly this particular person doesn't want a good system. > He explicitly said so. He likes dealing with an unreliable system. > No, he *tolerates* an unreliable system. He's simply made the judgement call that the grief and stress associated with searching, evaluating, choosing and learning a new system exceed the stress and grief of using the status quo. He simply thinks that Windows, unreliable as it is, is to him at least comfortable and the lesser of the available evils. > Some people don't believe in listening to advice, they only want to do what > they have already decided. Some people can't admit that their original > decision is no longer the best choice. I think you misread the article. He know Windows sucks, and suspects Apple and others are better, but has invested too much time in what he knows to be bothered to switch. (AND he can't stand the smugness and arrogance of people who insist on reminding him what he already knows...) - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 16:32:09 2009 From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 09:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scanner recommendation In-Reply-To: <4ACCBB71.4030102-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACCBB71.4030102@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <253750.7762.qm@web59510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> We have two flat-bed scanners, both working on Ubuntu. One is a Canon (lide 60) on Ubuntu Dell 32bit and the other is an Acer (640U) on Ubuntu amd64. We also have a bother mfc-5440cn (all in one) working on Ubuntu amd64. All three scanners are working great with Gimp. Good luck in your search. Our bother mfc-5440cn colour printing is failing. If anyone knows of a compatible colour printer. Please let me know. We are looking to keep our budget to under $100. We have been using this site: http://www.openprinting.org, to help us find which are compatible. Kind regards Abby ________________________________ From: Madison Kelly To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 12:01:53 PM Subject: [TLUG]: scanner recommendation Hi all, Can anyone recommend a half-decent flat-bed scanner (8.5" x 11" is fine) that works well with Linux/Ubuntu (64bit)? Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists __________________________________________________________________ Get the name you've always wanted @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 16:40:58 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 12:40:58 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> I've recent moved my decades of email archives to Gmail and am very happy to have made the switch ... if for no other reason than to be able to search those archives in a way that Thunderbird or Evolution never even tried. Moving conceptually from conventional IMAP folders to Gmail labels takes some getting used to, but isn't a step down in functionality. I like that I can assign multiple labels to an email, whereas in IMAP a mail can only go in one folder. I also highly recommend that Gmail function that allows you to construct filters based on emails in your inbox. Either open a message or check multiple messages (to which you want the same action performed), then go the "more actions" drop-down and select "Filter messages like these". It then takes you through one step that helps you refine the criteria of what's filtered, and a next screen on what to do with them. I find this very useful; it allows Gmail to move, flag, star or delete anything that you might want to filter. Personally, I found the Gmail filters more flexible to use than Thunderbird's. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 16:47:02 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 12:47:02 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > I've recent moved my decades of email archives to Gmail and am very happy to > have made the switch ... if for no other reason than to be able to search > those archives in a way that Thunderbird or Evolution never even tried. > Moving conceptually from conventional IMAP folders to Gmail labels takes > some getting used to, but isn't a step down in functionality. I like that I > can assign multiple labels to an email, whereas in IMAP a mail can only go > in one folder. > > I also highly recommend that Gmail function that allows you to construct > filters based on emails in your inbox. Either open a message or check > multiple messages (to which you want the same action performed), then go the > "more actions" drop-down and select "Filter messages like these". It then > takes you through one step that helps you refine the criteria of what's > filtered, and a next screen on what to do with them. I find this very > useful; it allows Gmail to move, flag, star or delete anything that you > might want to filter. > > Personally, I found the Gmail filters more flexible to use than > Thunderbird's. > What I like most about Gmail and miss in Thunderbird is it's ability to thread conversations. > - Evan > > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://devmentor.org Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 16:47:46 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 12:47:46 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910070932k37ce3942iedbe0e04bde3612-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> <20091007135302.GM26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7fc604580910070932k37ce3942iedbe0e04bde3612@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACCC632.9050008@moores.ca> So what you're really say is: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/microsofts_secret_weapon_isnt_fud_its_inertia The real lesson of this sorry episode is that maybe, and I say maybe, the best efforts of Mark Shuttleworth will never be enough to lure Windows users away. It?s not a technology problem, *it?s an inertial mindset problem*. Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > 2009/10/7 Lennart Sorensen > > > Well clearly this particular person doesn't want a good system. > He explicitly said so. He likes dealing with an unreliable system. > > > > No, he /tolerates/ an unreliable system. He's simply made the judgement > call that the grief and stress associated with searching, evaluating, > choosing and learning a new system exceed the stress and grief of using > the status quo. He simply thinks that Windows, unreliable as it is, is > to him at least comfortable and the lesser of the available evils. > > > > Some people don't believe in listening to advice, they only want to > do what they have already decided. Some people can't admit that > their original decision is no longer the best choice. > > > > I think you misread the article. He know Windows sucks, and suspects > Apple and others are better, but has invested too much time in what he > knows to be bothered to switch. (AND he can't stand the smugness and > arrogance of people who insist on reminding him what he already knows...) > > > - Evan > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 16:47:24 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 12:47:24 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32f6a8880910070947k23391b2ctad8be39e86f52f8f@mail.gmail.com> Hi Evan, The only problem I ever saw with gmail is that google owns your email. On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > I've recent moved my decades of email archives to Gmail and am very happy to > have made the switch ... if for no other reason than to be able to search > those archives in a way that Thunderbird or Evolution never even tried. > Moving conceptually from conventional IMAP folders to Gmail labels takes > some getting used to, but isn't a step down in functionality. I like that I > can assign multiple labels to an email, whereas in IMAP a mail can only go > in one folder. > > I also highly recommend that Gmail function that allows you to construct > filters based on emails in your inbox. Either open a message or check > multiple messages (to which you want the same action performed), then go the > "more actions" drop-down and select "Filter messages like these". It then > takes you through one step that helps you refine the criteria of what's > filtered, and a next screen on what to do with them. I find this very > useful; it allows Gmail to move, flag, star or delete anything that you > might want to filter. > > Personally, I found the Gmail filters more flexible to use than > Thunderbird's. > > - Evan > > -- Dave Germiquet -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 17:00:42 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 13:00:42 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <4ACCC632.9050008-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> <20091007135302.GM26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7fc604580910070932k37ce3942iedbe0e04bde3612@mail.gmail.com> <4ACCC632.9050008@moores.ca> Message-ID: <7fc604580910071000r68b245a4g3e1c695a762062d3@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/7 Darryl Moore > So what you're really say is: > > > http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/microsofts_secret_weapon_isnt_fud_its_inertia > Yeah, I may have said that once or twice before.... http://technology.canoe.ca/2009/06/17/9832971-cp.html ;-) > The real lesson of this sorry episode is that maybe, and I say maybe, the > best efforts of Mark Shuttleworth will never be enough to lure Windows users > away. It?s not a technology problem, *it?s an inertial mindset problem*. > The main point is that it's not good enough that FOSS software is better, more reliable, etc. It often needs to provide a *compelling* reason to switch, to overcome the inertia factor. And sometimes those compelling reasons are not of the FOSS community's making For instance: If Windows 7 starter edition (the one to be installed on netbooks) turns out to cause too many obstacles to users and is too expensive to upgrade, that may be one of the compelling reasons to consider alternatives. Of course, let's not forget about attempts to provide compelling reasons *not* to switch, otherwise known as "vendor lock-in". Incompatible file formats, lack of interoperability, etc. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 17:19:59 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:19:59 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910071000r68b245a4g3e1c695a762062d3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> <20091007135302.GM26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7fc604580910070932k37ce3942iedbe0e04bde3612@mail.gmail.com> <4ACCC632.9050008@moores.ca> <7fc604580910071000r68b245a4g3e1c695a762062d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACCCDBF.40301@moores.ca> Of course everybody has a different threshold for what a compelling rational is, and as you say much of it is outside of the control of the OSS community. There are three things we need to do as a community then: 1) Make the compelling case to businesses and individuals. For many the cost savings and extra security may be sufficient to make the leap. Unfortunately, as Microsoft is the primary competitor in this field, many of the arguments one might use could be perceived as Microsoft bashing. 2) Help them through the transition period. Once they decide to switch, every effort has to be made to relieve the frustrations they will experience in making it. The worst thing that could happen would be for them to switch back out of frustration. 3) Lobby governments to do everything possible to prevent the vendor lock in which increases that inertia substantially. In the hands of a company like Microsoft some of these lock in tactics can be considered anti-competitive and therefore illegal. Unfortunately, as with (1), bringing attention to this can easily be seen as MS bashing again. Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > 2009/10/7 Darryl Moore > > > So what you're really say is: > > http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/microsofts_secret_weapon_isnt_fud_its_inertia > > > > Yeah, I may have said that once or twice before.... > > http://technology.canoe.ca/2009/06/17/9832971-cp.html > > ;-) > > > > The real lesson of this sorry episode is that maybe, and I say > maybe, the best efforts of Mark Shuttleworth will never be enough to > lure Windows users away. It?s not a technology problem, *it?s an > inertial mindset problem*. > > > > The main point is that it's not good enough that FOSS software is > better, more reliable, etc. It often needs to provide a *compelling* > reason to switch, to overcome the inertia factor. And sometimes those > compelling reasons are not of the FOSS community's making > > For instance: If Windows 7 starter edition (the one to be installed on > netbooks) turns out to cause too many obstacles to users and is too > expensive to upgrade, that may be one of the compelling reasons to > consider alternatives. > > Of course, let's not forget about attempts to provide compelling reasons > *not* to switch, otherwise known as "vendor lock-in". Incompatible file > formats, lack of interoperability, etc. > > - Evan > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 17:28:03 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 13:28:03 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091007172803.GA14778@yam.witteman.ca> On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 12:47:02PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >What I like most about Gmail and miss in Thunderbird is it's ability >to thread conversations. I am no lover of Thunderbird, but it does thread conversations. The leftmost column (by default) of your email list is a "thread" sort. It does a very passable job. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 17:34:22 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 13:34:22 -0400 Subject: Recent update broke postfix/dovecot In-Reply-To: <20090928202542.GA4188-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090928202542.GA4188@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20091007173422.GB14778@yam.witteman.ca> On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 04:25:42PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >I recently updated a Debian testing box, and now mail is not getting >delivered to dovecot > >dovecot seems to be fine - I can log into it and check mail (after a >tweak to the config file - but there don't seem to be any other tweaks >required). > >postfix seems fine too - but I get "status=deferred (temporary failure)" >messages all over the place. I'm at a loss as to what could be the >problem. Anyone have any thoughts? It turns out that dovecot has *three* logfiles of interest. There are dovecot.log and dovecot-info.log in /var/log/, and then there is a dovecot-deliver.log stored elsewhere. It was in this last log that I found an error of interest, which quickly resolved the problem. Speaking of dovecot, they have some of the best error messages I have seen - the error contains a link to the dovecot wiki describing the error, its causes, and a variety of resolutions. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 17:45:49 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 13:45:49 -0400 Subject: How To: Windows XP Mode In...Ubuntu Linux? Message-ID: <7c50d3570910071045k3b0c0d8bse4b6e5251c7d6116@mail.gmail.com> You guys are going to *love* this one; here's an excerpt 10 page article, the URL will follow: "With Windows 7 due out later this month, many of you are no doubt counting the days until release. I've played with both the beta and RC of Microsoft's latest OS, and quite honestly, I liked what I saw. If this had come out in 2006 when 'Longhorn' was promised, I have no doubt that I would not have switched to Linux (at least not yet). "However, that's not how events played out. What really happened was 'Longhorn' became Vista, and it didn't make it out the door until 2007. It arrived late, buggy, irritating (UAC), overpriced, underwhelming, confusing (licensing), and in some cases, incompatible. Now, almost three years later, and almost five since Longhorn's initially-planned release, Microsoft is releasing the OS they should have launched several years ago. Unfortunately, Windows 7 is also overpriced (slightly less so than Vista), and even more confusing. "But first, let's go over what Microsoft did right. Windows 7 is going to launch when the company said it will launch. Because of a long beta and RC testing phase, 7 is not going to be as buggy as Vista was when it debuted. Microsoft has taken the UAC down a notch. It has also come down on the price a little. The highest edition of 7 (Ultimate) is fifty percent more expensive than the highest edition of XP (Pro). This is opposed to 100% more expensive (Vista Ultimate versus XP Pro). But fair enough, the price did drop somewhat. "Underwhelming, 7 is not. In terms of its user interface, Vista was pretty much XP with a reorganized Start Menu and a black taskbar. Flip 3D was basically nothing more than a choppy gimmick (though the thumbnail previews of windows within the taskbar are pretty sweet; Windows 7 kept them, and I use them in Linux). Windows 7 actually succeeds in terms of a being a unified vision that pays tribute to the brand. Everything is made of glass in 7. Vista began this trend with the transparent glass window borders and the overlaid faux-reflection texture. But 7 really takes the use of transparent glass and reflections to the extreme. The window borders, menus, some applications, and even the taskbar and start menu are all made of glass. New tricks include being able to make all windows transparent to see the desktop. As a total package, Windows 7 has what I consider to be the first true Windows theme." http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/xp-mode-ubuntu,2434.html -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 18:35:57 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:35:57 -0400 Subject: scanner recommendation In-Reply-To: <253750.7762.qm-nT3pnqqGy0T5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACCBB71.4030102@alteeve.com> <253750.7762.qm@web59510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091007183557.GQ26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 09:32:09AM -0700, Abidel Bassie-Cripps wrote: > We have two flat-bed scanners, both working on Ubuntu. One is a Canon (lide 60) on Ubuntu Dell 32bit and the other is an Acer (640U) on Ubuntu amd64. We also have a bother mfc-5440cn (all in one) working on Ubuntu amd64. All three scanners are working great with Gimp. Unfortunately sane says that the 60 was the last model to be supported. The lide 70, 80, 90 and 100 are all unsupported, as is apparently every other canon scanner listed at canada computers (that's 4 models not supported). They list two epson's as well (the V30 and V300). Those do actually work with linux, but only through the use of a plugin from avasys which is listed as not DFSG. Not sure what that involves. Sane lists the support for those two epsons as 'good' but with the note that they require the non DFSG filter to work. Apparently the V700 from epson is supported in status 'good' with sane, but they sell for about $650. I tried the old multifunction crapbox HP I have sitting around, and much to my surprise when I plugged it in linux had a working scanner (the printer and copy function are quite broken on the thing so they won't work anymore). > Good luck in your search. > > Our bother mfc-5440cn colour printing is failing. If anyone knows of a compatible colour printer. Please let me know. We are looking to keep our budget to under $100. We have been using this site: http://www.openprinting.org, to help us find which are compatible. Well the Epson Stylus C88+ is about $100 and is listed as supported perfectly using the gutenprint drivers. The Epson Stylus Photo R280 is listed as mostly working (not sure what part isn't working perfectly). It too is about $100. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 18:43:53 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:43:53 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910070932k37ce3942iedbe0e04bde3612-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> <20091007135302.GM26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7fc604580910070932k37ce3942iedbe0e04bde3612@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091007184353.GR26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 12:32:00PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > 2009/10/7 Lennart Sorensen > > Well clearly this particular person doesn't want a good system. > > He explicitly said so. He likes dealing with an unreliable system. > > No, he *tolerates* an unreliable system. He's simply made the judgement call > that the grief and stress associated with searching, evaluating, choosing > and learning a new system exceed the stress and grief of using the status > quo. He simply thinks that Windows, unreliable as it is, is to him at least > comfortable and the lesser of the available evils. Some people just can't let go of their mistakes and start over. Even when the payback long term (and probably even short term) is so great. Some people also seem to be allergic to learning. Or even thinking in some cases. That's too hard. > > Some people don't believe in listening to advice, they only want to do what > > they have already decided. Some people can't admit that their original > > decision is no longer the best choice. > > I think you misread the article. He know Windows sucks, and suspects Apple > and others are better, but has invested too much time in what he knows to be > bothered to switch. (AND he can't stand the smugness and arrogance of people > who insist on reminding him what he already knows...) I have met some windows evangelists too. Fortuantely they aren't that common, but boy are they annoying. I don't think I misread the article at all. I think I got it exactly right. The author may disagree with me, but I still suspect I am right. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 19:42:36 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:42:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <20091007135302.GM26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> <20091007135302.GM26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 02:35:18PM -0400, George Nicol wrote: >> Point taken, Evan. >> >> From the article: "I know other operating systems are available. >> But *their advocates* seem even creepier, snootier, and more >> insistent than Mac owners. The harder they try to convince me, >> the more I'm repelled." (emphasis my own) >> >> A very good illustration of why you promote the correct style of >> Linux evangelism that you've always recommended on this listserv. >> To some degree, railing against Microsoft is okay when preaching >> to the choir at TLUG but always counterproductive when we take >> the fight to them and attack them on a battlefield they hold. >> The "ice house" incident comes to mind. I don't want to dredge >> up old conflicts but I would like to ask DJP for the benefit of >> his experienced opinion. > > Well clearly this particular person doesn't want a good system. > He explicitly said so. ?He likes dealing with an unreliable system. > > Some people don't believe in listening to advice, they only want to > do what they have already decided. ?Some people can't admit that their > original decision is no longer the best choice. ?That would be admitting > to making a mistake to some extent. > >> David, you've tried both extremes of evangelism: A 10 foot Tux >> in their face, and the quiet availability of Linux and OSS in >> your fine establishment. Which has gained the most converts? >> >> So easy to bash MS, so hard to resist the temptation. >> >> I'm just asking. Please, no flames folks. Thanks. > > Well most people use windows because it is what comes on the computer, > not because they picked it. ?Or they use windows because they happen to > use some application that only comes for windows. ?Mac users to a large > extent and linux users almost entirely have specificaly chosen to use > their system. ?Windows users pretty much never made that choice, they > just live with it. > > It's like a guy once told me: ?His dad kept on buying fords because > he had alweays bought fords, and assumed all other cars were just as > unreliable so why buy anything else. ?He was content to deal with the > problems he was used to rather than try something else. > One point that's missed a _lot_ in these discussions is that using Windows is _not_ a victimless crime. I don't think that it is at all 'smug' or overly pious to remind Windows users that their choice has a huge impact on the overall ecology of the Internet. The botnets that plague us with spam, ddos attacks, and all the other worms, malware (and lions and tigers and bears, oh my) are a direct result of Microsoft's monopolistic and proprietary shenanigans. I am at a loss to explain how anyone could equate the sometimes zealous promotion of Mac or Linux superiority with the ignorance that perpetuates Microsoft's dominance. If Windows users are sick of hearing about how crappy their OS is, well, I don't really care. I guess people who used 8-track tapes were sick of hearing about how crappy their technology was too, and look where they are now. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 19:38:29 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:38:29 -0400 Subject: Still fighting against telco's limiting other ISP In-Reply-To: References: <4ABBB1AC.8000703@alteeve.com> <1253815258.16549.96.camel@bliss.ss.org> <4AC0FF4B.5060902@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570910071238y39846e6ahb4b34227d5f3c6d6@mail.gmail.com> Sorry to bring back an old topic, but I just received the following: "Dear Mr. Lauzon "Thank you for your correspondence concerning the broadband industry in Canada. The Liberal Party believes that competitive rates and accessibility for high speed internet are key components for economic growth in Canada. "We have some of the highest-cost internet access when compared to other developed nations. It is important to note that in 2002, Canada ranked 2nd out of 30 OECD countries in number of broadband users per 100 inhabitants. In 2007, we dropped to 10th. Furthermore, in costs versus speed, Canada ranks 27th out of 30 for average broadband monthly price per advertised megabit per second. "What we need is better service for Canadian consumers. Canadians deserve the best internet service possible along with competitive fares. This is what we need to do in order to compete in a new global economy. A Liberal government will take steps to increase competition and get more investment into internet infrastructure. These steps must be taken in order to lower rates and improve broadband services for all. "The future economy will be very dependent on the digital economy. It is crucial that we, as a country, invest in broadband infrastructure today. Our Caucus is very determined on this issue, and will continue to work hard in the House of Commons and in the Senate to best serve Canadians. "Thank you again for your correspondence on this important matter. Should you have any questions or comments about this or any other matter, please do not hesitate to contact Mr. Rae again. "Yours Sincerely Christopher Leslie Parliamentary Assistant Office of the Hon. Bob Rae 613-992-5234 raeb-o8LxKXBI9Raw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org" -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 19:54:25 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:54:25 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB8DE6.4010205@primus.ca> <20091007135302.GM26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091007195425.GS26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 03:42:36PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > One point that's missed a _lot_ in these discussions is that using > Windows is _not_ a victimless crime. I don't think that it is at all > 'smug' or overly pious to remind Windows users that their choice has a > huge impact on the overall ecology of the Internet. The botnets that > plague us with spam, ddos attacks, and all the other worms, malware > (and lions and tigers and bears, oh my) are a direct result of > Microsoft's monopolistic and proprietary shenanigans. Microsoft has made many decisions on what features to enable by default (usually all of them) in order to avoid tech support costs when someone can't figure out how to enable something. The cost of this bad decision security wise is harder to measure, so Microsoft simply hasn't cared. It's not their time and money being wasted after all. > I am at a loss to explain how anyone could equate the sometimes > zealous promotion of Mac or Linux superiority with the ignorance that > perpetuates Microsoft's dominance. > > If Windows users are sick of hearing about how crappy their OS is, > well, I don't really care. I guess people who used 8-track tapes were > sick of hearing about how crappy their technology was too, and look > where they are now. Sure. Of course you would need people to take responsibility for their actions for anything to change. Like realizing that opening stupid attachments is not a good idea. Realizing that forwarding clearly false information to all your friends just because an email says so is not a good idea. Like realizing that giving money for products in spam causes spam. Just because you don't care about having spyware and viruses on your machine doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't care about what it makes your machine do. Unfortunately many windows users don't understand this and all too often simply don't care to learn anything about it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 19:58:25 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 15:58:25 -0400 Subject: Still fighting against telco's limiting other ISP In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910071238y39846e6ahb4b34227d5f3c6d6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ABBB1AC.8000703@alteeve.com> <1253815258.16549.96.camel@bliss.ss.org> <4AC0FF4B.5060902@alteeve.com> <7c50d3570910071238y39846e6ahb4b34227d5f3c6d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACCF2E1.2090906@dinamis.com> This is an example of the art of saying nothing and sounding earnest and almost incensed while doing it and implying your political opponents aren't doing "something" about it while ignoring the fact that your party also didn't do much to fix the problem when it governed and in fact, might have even created or at the very least, exacerbated it, all the while saying nothing on which you could be later called to account on. It takes real skill to do that. -- Regards, Clifford Michael Lauzon wrote: > Sorry to bring back an old topic, but I just received the following: > > "Dear Mr. Lauzon > > > "Thank you for your correspondence concerning the broadband industry > in Canada. The Liberal Party believes that competitive rates and > accessibility for high speed internet are key components for economic > growth in Canada. > > "We have some of the highest-cost internet access when compared to > other developed nations. It is important to note that in 2002, Canada > ranked 2nd out of 30 OECD countries in number of broadband users per > 100 inhabitants. In 2007, we dropped to 10th. Furthermore, in costs > versus speed, Canada ranks 27th out of 30 for average broadband > monthly price per advertised megabit per second. > > "What we need is better service for Canadian consumers. Canadians > deserve the best internet service possible along with competitive > fares. This is what we need to do in order to compete in a new global > economy. A Liberal government will take steps to increase competition > and get more investment into internet infrastructure. These steps must > be taken in order to lower rates and improve broadband services for > all. > > "The future economy will be very dependent on the digital economy. It > is crucial that we, as a country, invest in broadband infrastructure > today. Our Caucus is very determined on this issue, and will continue > to work hard in the House of Commons and in the Senate to best serve > Canadians. > > "Thank you again for your correspondence on this important matter. > Should you have any questions or comments about this or any other > matter, please do not hesitate to contact Mr. Rae again. > > "Yours Sincerely > > > Christopher Leslie > Parliamentary Assistant > Office of the Hon. Bob Rae > 613-992-5234 > raeb-o8LxKXBI9Raw5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org" -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 19:59:47 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:59:47 -0400 Subject: How To: Windows XP Mode In...Ubuntu Linux? In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910071045k3b0c0d8bse4b6e5251c7d6116-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910071045k3b0c0d8bse4b6e5251c7d6116@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > You guys are going to *love* this one; here's an excerpt 10 page > article, the URL will follow: > > "With Windows 7 due out later this month, many of you are no doubt > counting the days until release. I've played with both the beta and RC > of Microsoft's latest OS, and quite honestly, I liked what I saw. If > this had come out in 2006 when 'Longhorn' was promised, I have no > doubt that I would not have switched to Linux (at least not yet). > > "However, that's not how events played out. What really happened was > 'Longhorn' became Vista, and it didn't make it out the door until > 2007. It arrived late, buggy, irritating (UAC), overpriced, > underwhelming, confusing (licensing), and in some cases, incompatible. > Now, almost three years later, and almost five since Longhorn's > initially-planned release, Microsoft is releasing the OS they should > have launched several years ago. Unfortunately, Windows 7 is also > overpriced (slightly less so than Vista), and even more confusing. > > "But first, let's go over what Microsoft did right. Windows 7 is going > to launch when the company said it will launch. Because of a long beta > and RC testing phase, 7 is not going to be as buggy as Vista was when > it debuted. Microsoft has taken the UAC down a notch. It has also come > down on the price a little. The highest edition of 7 (Ultimate) is > fifty percent more expensive than the highest edition of XP (Pro). > This is opposed to 100% more expensive (Vista Ultimate versus XP Pro). > But fair enough, the price did drop somewhat. > > "Underwhelming, 7 is not. In terms of its user interface, Vista was > pretty much XP with a reorganized Start Menu and a black taskbar. Flip > 3D was basically nothing more than a choppy gimmick (though the > thumbnail previews of windows within the taskbar are pretty sweet; > Windows 7 kept them, and I use them in Linux). Windows 7 actually > succeeds in terms of a being a unified vision that pays tribute to the > brand. Everything is made of glass in 7. Vista began this trend with > the transparent glass window borders and the overlaid faux-reflection > texture. But 7 really takes the use of transparent glass and > reflections to the extreme. The window borders, menus, some > applications, and even the taskbar and start menu are all made of > glass. New tricks include being able to make all windows transparent > to see the desktop. As a total package, Windows 7 has what I consider > to be the first true Windows theme." > > http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/xp-mode-ubuntu,2434.html > Honestly, who the heck cares? Guaranteed, the underlying OS is exactly the same as it's always been, a kludged derivative of Windows 3.1. Perhaps they've acquired a couple of other proprietary doodads to throw in for managing photos or something, but in the end it's all the same story: security will be trivially compromised, anything you want to accomplish beyond the basics will require either the purchase or pirating of 3rd party software, and if you want support, well, good luck with that. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 20:22:39 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:22:39 -0400 Subject: How To: Windows XP Mode In...Ubuntu Linux? In-Reply-To: References: <7c50d3570910071045k3b0c0d8bse4b6e5251c7d6116@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091007202239.GT26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 03:59:47PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > Honestly, who the heck cares? Guaranteed, the underlying OS is exactly > the same as it's always been, a kludged derivative of Windows 3.1. > Perhaps they've acquired a couple of other proprietary doodads to > throw in for managing photos or something, but in the end it's all the > same story: security will be trivially compromised, anything you want > to accomplish beyond the basics will require either the purchase or > pirating of 3rd party software, and if you want support, well, good > luck with that. No it is a derivative ot Windows NT 3.1. Nothing to do with windows 3.1 which ran on top of DOS. The last windows to be related to that was Windows Me. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 20:50:27 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:50:27 -0400 Subject: How To: Windows XP Mode In...Ubuntu Linux? In-Reply-To: <20091007202239.GT26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910071045k3b0c0d8bse4b6e5251c7d6116@mail.gmail.com> <20091007202239.GT26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 03:59:47PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Honestly, who the heck cares? Guaranteed, the underlying OS is exactly >> the same as it's always been, a kludged derivative of Windows 3.1. >> Perhaps they've acquired a couple of other proprietary doodads to >> throw in for managing photos or something, but in the end it's all the >> same story: security will be trivially compromised, anything you want >> to accomplish beyond the basics will require either the purchase or >> pirating of 3rd party software, and if you want support, well, good >> luck with that. > > No it is a derivative ot Windows NT 3.1. ?Nothing to do with windows > 3.1 which ran on top of DOS. ?The last windows to be related to that > was Windows Me. > Granted. To the end user, however, the result is the same. I don't think I need to tell you that we're splitting hairs here ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 21:35:27 2009 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:35:27 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880910070947k23391b2ctad8be39e86f52f8f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> <32f6a8880910070947k23391b2ctad8be39e86f52f8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1254951327.12760.5.camel@hatsya.starnix.com> On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 12:47 -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > I've recent moved my decades of email archives to Gmail and am very happy to > > have made the switch ... if for no other reason than to be able to search > > those archives in a way that Thunderbird or Evolution never even tried. > > Moving conceptually from conventional IMAP folders to Gmail labels takes > > some getting used to, but isn't a step down in functionality. I like that I > > can assign multiple labels to an email, whereas in IMAP a mail can only go > > in one folder. I haven't confirmed this myself but it is my understanding that, if you connect via IMAP [and maybe POP] to get your e-mail, the labels appear as folders. So you can have both. --matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 21:37:53 2009 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:37:53 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <20091007172803.GA14778-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> <20091007172803.GA14778@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <4ACD0A31.20505@utoronto.ca> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 12:47:02PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> What I like most about Gmail and miss in Thunderbird is it's ability >> to thread conversations. > > I am no lover of Thunderbird, but it does thread conversations. The > leftmost column (by default) of your email list is a "thread" sort. It > does a very passable job. But Gmail will actually take your replies and place them in the conversation. When I reply to an email Gmail automatically adds it to the conversation regardless of where I choose to save my sent mail. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 22:28:13 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:28:13 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACD15FD.7060401@dinamis.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I've recent moved my decades of email archives to Gmail and am very > happy to have made the switch ... I'm not. I could read your posts before without having to resort to a magnifying glass. Now, it looks like you're using 5 point Times, though I don't understand why because your email is plain-text. It might have something to do with the fact that I've made a transition recently from an older machine running Kubuntu 8.04 with KDE 3x to a new machine running Fedora 11 with KDE 4.2 and the transition hasn't been smooth. Here , I wonder if the transition to OS X or Windows would have been any less traumatic. By the way, you may be amused that Thunderbird's spell checker suggested Shostakovitch for your last name. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 7 22:30:57 2009 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:30:57 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <4ACD15FD.7060401-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> <4ACD15FD.7060401@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <1254954657.15110.1.camel@hatsya.starnix.com> On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 18:28 -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > By the way, you may be amused that Thunderbird's spell checker suggested > Shostakovitch for your last name. That's better than the occasional typo I make: leivobitch PS: It's 'ei' as in 'receive' which makes it worse. --matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 01:47:26 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 21:47:26 -0400 Subject: scanner recommendation In-Reply-To: <20091007183557.GQ26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACCBB71.4030102@alteeve.com> <253750.7762.qm@web59510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20091007183557.GQ26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091007214726.7501593d.hgibson@eol.ca> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:35:57 -0400 lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > They list two epson's as well (the V30 and V300). Those do actually > work with linux, but only through the use of a plugin from avasys which > is listed as not DFSG. Not sure what that involves. Sane lists the > support for those two epsons as 'good' but with the note that they > require the non DFSG filter to work. Apparently the V700 from epson is > supported in status 'good' with sane, but they sell for about $650. Lennart, I have an Epson V350 here, and I run it using Epson iscan software. Xsane supports my plotter, but iscan seems to work better. I had no problems installing iscan. The only problem I had was finding out that that was what I needed. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 06:38:46 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 02:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Evan Leibovitch | http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/28/charlie-brooker-microsoft-mac-windows I have to say that I thought that this was a despicable article. Instead of reason, it used mockery. Silly shallow mockery. Based on stereotypes. Kind of like what a bully does. This is the style of argument that divides the world into "us" and "them" and argues we're right because we're us. This kind of article could be a fun guilty pleasure but it didn't actually give me any pleasure: I felt sorry for those attacked. The substantive claims seem to be: - all Mac owners are smug because they are mac owners (I know this not to be true) - all Mac owners proselytize (not true) - proselytization is always obnoxious (not true) - Windows 7 launch party tutorials are really really creepy (perhaps not to their intended audience) - nobody recommends Windows (patently untrue) If you take the universal quantifier off these claims, they are probably true and probably uninteresting. What the heck is the claim here? I know Windows is awful. Everyone knows Windows is awful. Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it. In our society, many of us use the things we own as part of our identity. The Mac seems to fulfill this function for a number of people. Wanting to wear object because of designer labels is apparently widespread, so this isn't a characteristic peculiar to Mac owners. I've seen Windows some users fetishize things like overclocked CPUs or big graphics cards or expensive "business" laptops. Or Windows 7! You may think that getting identity from possessing things is funny, but I bet you do the same for other objects. I admit that I do, but I won't be specific in public :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 13:19:52 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 09:19:52 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACDE6F8.1080204@moores.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Evan Leibovitch > > | http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/28/charlie-brooker-microsoft-mac-windows > > I have to say that I thought that this was a despicable article. > Instead of reason, it used mockery. Silly shallow mockery. Based on > stereotypes. Kind of like what a bully does. > > ... > > If you take the universal quantifier off these claims, they are > probably true and probably uninteresting. > If you do that then it wouldn't be satire. Overstating its point in order to make it is the style. It is suppose to be funny. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 14:13:14 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:13:14 -0400 Subject: Debian pushes development of kFreeBSD port Message-ID: <7c50d3570910080713p5393f6a3r45b6a57f768920a@mail.gmail.com> October 7th, 2009 The Debian Release Team is pleased to announce that it sees the port of the Debian system to the FreeBSD kernel fit to be handled equal with the other release ports. The upcoming release codenamed 'Squeeze' is planned to be the first Debian distribution to be released with Linux and FreeBSD kernels. The kFreeBSD architectures for the AMD64/Intel EM64T and i386 processor architectures are now release architectures. Severe bugs on these architectures will be considered release critical the same way as bugs on other architectures like armel or i386 are. If a particular package does not build or work properly on such an architecture this problem is considered release-critical. Debian's main motivation for the inclusion of the FreeBSD kernel into the official release process is the opportunity to offer to its users a broader choice of kernels and also include a kernel that provides features such as jails, the OpenBSD Packet Filter and support for NDIS drivers in the mainline kernel with full support. http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20091007 -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 14:39:51 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:39:51 -0400 Subject: scanner recommendation In-Reply-To: <20091007214726.7501593d.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACCBB71.4030102@alteeve.com> <253750.7762.qm@web59510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20091007183557.GQ26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091007214726.7501593d.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20091008143951.GU26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 09:47:26PM -0400, Howard Gibson wrote: > I have an Epson V350 here, and I run it using Epson iscan software. Xsane supports my plotter, but iscan seems to work better. I had no problems installing iscan. The only problem I had was finding out that that was what I needed. Well if using iscan is acceptable, then the V30 and V300 are supported quite well. Some people don't want that kind of solution though. Some people expect open source on their linux systems. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 14:41:05 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:41:05 -0400 Subject: Debian pushes development of kFreeBSD port In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910080713p5393f6a3r45b6a57f768920a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910080713p5393f6a3r45b6a57f768920a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091008144105.GV26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 08, 2009 at 10:13:14AM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote: > October 7th, 2009 > > The Debian Release Team is pleased to announce that it sees the port > of the Debian system to the FreeBSD kernel fit to be handled equal > with the other release ports. The upcoming release codenamed 'Squeeze' > is planned to be the first Debian distribution to be released with > Linux and FreeBSD kernels. > > The kFreeBSD architectures for the AMD64/Intel EM64T and i386 > processor architectures are now release architectures. Severe bugs on > these architectures will be considered release critical the same way > as bugs on other architectures like armel or i386 are. If a particular > package does not build or work properly on such an architecture this > problem is considered release-critical. > > Debian's main motivation for the inclusion of the FreeBSD kernel into > the official release process is the opportunity to offer to its users > a broader choice of kernels and also include a kernel that provides > features such as jails, the OpenBSD Packet Filter and support for NDIS > drivers in the mainline kernel with full support. > > http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20091007 Well it blows up quite well under kvm if smp is enabled. Can't even boot the installer, just crashes the kernel. Works OK with one cpu though. The current installer is a couple of months old though, so perhaps the current kernel is better. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 15:44:42 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <4ACDE6F8.1080204-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <4ACDE6F8.1080204@moores.ca> Message-ID: | From: Darryl Moore | If you do that then it wouldn't be satire. Overstating its point in | order to make it is the style. It is suppose to be funny. http://www.arts.yorku.ca/lamarsh/projects/trp/trp_wwl01.html "Bullying causes distress to the victims even though bullies may say they are 'just having fun'." My sense is that the article's point is mean-spirited and that it adds nothing to understanding. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 19:57:19 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:57:19 -0400 Subject: mousing in linux, center mouse, or place it top of screen or bottom, with short cut?? Message-ID: <20091008155719.a11fb1f9.tleslie@tcn.net> i have a new keyboard that has a mouse built into the keys, i.e., the f and j key are not only keys when pressed, but when you move them, other then in the direct down click, they move the mouse, so one never has to take their fingers of the typing keys to move the mouse. it gets even better, but also more complicated, but with practice, its an amazing keyboard, as ones movement to type is reduced by 80% and movement to mouse around is virtually eliminated. also the f j "mouse keys" work together to give, fine, med. and fast mouse resolution, having said all this, i have still had to max my xset m 9 1 and max out all other setting so i can acheive the fine resolution to be able to grab at a window boundry to drag on it to resize, but also have to mouse to fly across the screen fast, from one side to another, (i have a 30" hp 2560x1600 in portrait mode) and as it stands right now it takes 3 seconds to mouse from top of screen to bottom of screen (or reverse of that), which seems like an eternity, but making it faster, impacts the fine resolution, so what i have now is good, but what would really be great is a ctrl sequence or alt key that would center, top, or bottom position the mouse/cursor instantly, and i get zip in googles because the search words seem to be some common with about any discussion talking about mousing around, so i have found nothing on whether this is possible. for that matter, if there is any way to position the mouse via some simple command, i can write some script to run off a ctrl- in the gnome key binding settings. i hope someone has heard of something, else my next step is to look into hitting C/gmone programming to try and achieve it, or perhaps into X. maybe digging into some tablet X driver can give me some ideas, but i am just hoping someone knows of a tool or easier way to do this. -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 20:20:32 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 16:20:32 -0400 Subject: mousing in linux, center mouse, or place it top of screen or bottom, with short cut?? In-Reply-To: <20091008155719.a11fb1f9.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20091008155719.a11fb1f9.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <1f13df280910081320y105fd3fey499cd703e4bb6a95@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/8 ted leslie : > i have a new keyboard that has a mouse built into the keys, > i.e., the f and j key are not only keys when pressed, but > when you move them, other then in the direct down click, > they move the mouse, so one never has to take their fingers > of the typing keys to move the mouse. > it gets even better, but also more complicated, but with practice, > its an amazing keyboard, as ones movement to type is reduced by 80% > and movement to mouse around is virtually eliminated. also the > f j "mouse keys" work together to give, fine, med. and fast mouse resolution, Ted, could you tell us what keyboard this is? I'm a keyboard fan: I own several IBM model Ms (best feel ever, hideously loud), and two Kinesis Advantages (one at home, one at work). Not that people necessarily needed to know that, but ... the point is I'm interested in keyboards, and there are probably others on the list who'll be interested too. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 20:56:20 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 16:56:20 -0400 Subject: mousing in linux, center mouse, or place it top of screen or bottom, with short cut?? In-Reply-To: <1f13df280910081320y105fd3fey499cd703e4bb6a95-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091008155719.a11fb1f9.tleslie@tcn.net> <1f13df280910081320y105fd3fey499cd703e4bb6a95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091008165620.4731c9e4.tleslie@tcn.net> at 1200+$ delivered your interest probably just wained, www.datahand.com it is the most advanced keyboard in the world, but , comes at a price. they are also only special order now too, as company isnt in too good of shape from what I read on googling them, but given i want to hack for life, you know, into my 90's+ this thing is worth its weight in clear cut diamonds. -tl On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 16:20:32 -0400 Giles Orr wrote: > 2009/10/8 ted leslie : > > i have a new keyboard that has a mouse built into the keys, > > i.e., the f and j key are not only keys when pressed, but > > when you move them, other then in the direct down click, > > they move the mouse, so one never has to take their fingers > > of the typing keys t o move the mouse. > > it gets even better, but also more complicated, but with practice, > > its an amazing keyboard, as ones movement to type is reduced by 80% > > and movement to mouse around is virtually eliminated. also the > > f j "mouse keys" work together to give, fine, med. and fast mouse resolution, > > Ted, could you tell us what keyboard this is? I'm a keyboard fan: I > own several IBM model Ms (best feel ever, hideously loud), and two > Kinesis Advantages (one at home, one at work). Not that people > necessarily needed to know that, but ... the point is I'm interested > in keyboards, and there are probably others on the list who'll be > interested too. > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 21:27:57 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:27:57 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib Message-ID: Hi, I am wondering if there is a good cryptography lib C/C++ that is pretty much self contained and easy to build as a shared lib? It would also need to be well documented on usage / APIs. I started to look for Blowfish and came across "Twofish" but the author provides source code (on his site) but it's lacking documentation, etc. I am looking to make a crypto module for Ruby that will be fast and efficient vs Ruby native Gems that exist. Now that I've managed to get figure out how to call my C++ code from Ruby, I think this will be my first contribution to the Open Source community, and I am kind of excited about the idea. I need help in tracking down a good crytpo library that's easy to build for my 1st crack at this. Would GnuPGP fit this bill if anyone has experience building a shared lib? -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://devmentor.org Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 8 21:37:21 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:37:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091008213721.GW26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 08, 2009 at 05:27:57PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > I am wondering if there is a good cryptography lib C/C++ that is > pretty much self contained and easy to build as a shared lib? It would > also need to be well documented on usage / APIs. > > I started to look for Blowfish and came across "Twofish" but the > author provides source code (on his site) but it's lacking > documentation, etc. I am looking to make a crypto module for Ruby that > will be fast and efficient vs Ruby native Gems that exist. > > Now that I've managed to get figure out how to call my C++ code from > Ruby, I think this will be my first contribution to the Open Source > community, and I am kind of excited about the idea. > > I need help in tracking down a good crytpo library that's easy to > build for my 1st crack at this. Would GnuPGP fit this bill if anyone > has experience building a shared lib? Does libssl from openssl by any chance work? Or do the license issues cause too much hassle? gnutls perhaps? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andreilitvin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 02:44:19 2009 From: andreilitvin-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Andrei) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 22:44:19 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1255056259.6320.77.camel@goofz> Crypto++ is very good and complete (+ as a bonus, shared builds are possible,I don't think it has other dependencies and builds on both unix and windows). Openssl is quite known, however I found it hard to use. Andrei On Thu, 2009-10-08 at 17:27 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Hi, > > I am wondering if there is a good cryptography lib C/C++ that is > pretty much self contained and easy to build as a shared lib? It would > also need to be well documented on usage / APIs. > > I started to look for Blowfish and came across "Twofish" but the > author provides source code (on his site) but it's lacking > documentation, etc. I am looking to make a crypto module for Ruby that > will be fast and efficient vs Ruby native Gems that exist. > > Now that I've managed to get figure out how to call my C++ code from > Ruby, I think this will be my first contribution to the Open Source > community, and I am kind of excited about the idea. > > I need help in tracking down a good crytpo library that's easy to > build for my 1st crack at this. Would GnuPGP fit this bill if anyone > has experience building a shared lib? > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 09:56:31 2009 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 05:56:31 -0400 Subject: [OT] HTML in posts (was: [OT] folders in gmail) In-Reply-To: <4ACD15FD.7060401-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>; from clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org on Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 18:28:13 -0400 References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> <4ACD15FD.7060401@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20091009095631.GA1925@localhost> On Wed Oct 07,2009 06:28:13 PM CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> I've recent moved my decades of email archives to Gmail and am >> very happy to have made the switch ... > > I'm not. I could read your posts before without having to resort to > a magnifying glass. Now, it looks like you're using 5 point Times, > though I don't understand why because your email is plain-text. No, Evan's posts are not just plain-text, they also contain an HTML section, contrary to what the TLUG mailing list requests. This is what you (and I) are seeing. If Evan is using the Gmail client, what he should do is click on the "Plain Text" link above the message entry area before posting. If Abidel Bassie-Cripps is reading this post, she should take note of it and do the same thing. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 11:14:44 2009 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 07:14:44 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4ACEE2E4.6289.291209@sciguy.vex.net> On 8 Oct 2009 at 2:38, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Evan Leibovitch > > | > http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/28/charlie-brooker-microsoft-ma > c-windows > > I have to say that I thought that this was a despicable article. > Instead of reason, it used mockery. Silly shallow mockery. Based on > stereotypes. Kind of like what a bully does. > > This is the style of argument that divides the world into "us" and > "them" and argues we're right because we're us. > I didn't take it that way at all. I thought he could have been drawing from personal experience and, shall we say, embellishing a few of the details. It might backfire in the "Linux marketing department" (didn't know we had one, but tons of folks seem to be talking about it as if there is one), but I don't think that was ever on his radar. He seemed to have a shot of creative inspiration, and followed it. As a piece of "good writing", I think it totally rocked. Although, I might agree, his days at the Ubuntu marketing department could be numbered. It's inflamatory. It invites the danger of annoying a few Microsoft lawyers, advertisers and sales reps. But it was fun. > This kind of article could be a fun guilty pleasure but it didn't > actually give me any pleasure: I felt sorry for those attacked. > > The substantive claims seem to be: > > - all Mac owners are smug because they are mac owners (I know this not > to be true) > > - all Mac owners proselytize (not true) > > - proselytization is always obnoxious (not true) > > - Windows 7 launch party tutorials are really really creepy (perhaps > not to their intended audience) > > - nobody recommends Windows (patently untrue) > > If you take the universal quantifier off these claims, they are > probably true and probably uninteresting. > > What the heck is the claim here? > I know Windows is awful. Everyone knows Windows is awful. > Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's > there, and there's nothing you can do about it. Trying to follow this as if it is part of a course in "Rhetoric 101" misses the point. By comparing the problems MS customers face with the "faint smell of piss in a subway", he is being literary. Indulging in a literary flair does not land you in jail for false (or even ambiguous) advertising. Nor does it equate you with being a propagandist. It is just an enjoyable read. That's all. If a reader is unsympathetic to his opinions, they can always surf somewhere else. Paul > > In our society, many of us use the things we own as part of our > identity. The Mac seems to fulfill this function for a number of > people. Wanting to wear object because of designer labels is > apparently widespread, so this isn't a characteristic peculiar to Mac > owners. > > I've seen Windows some users fetishize things like overclocked CPUs or > big graphics cards or expensive "business" laptops. Or Windows 7! > > You may think that getting identity from possessing things is funny, > but I bet you do the same for other objects. I admit that I do, but I > won't be specific in public :-) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 4492 (20091009) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 13:40:20 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:40:20 -0400 Subject: mousing in linux, center mouse, or place it top of screen or bottom, with short cut?? In-Reply-To: <20091008155719.a11fb1f9.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20091008155719.a11fb1f9.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <200910090940.20494.amarjan@pobox.com> On October 8, 2009 03:57:19 pm ted leslie wrote: > so what i have now is good, but what would really be great is > a ctrl sequence or alt key that would center, top, or bottom > position the mouse/cursor instantly, > and i get zip in googles because the search words seem to be some > common with about any discussion talking about mousing around, > so i have found nothing on whether this is possible. > for that matter, if there is any way to position the mouse > via some simple command, i can write some script to run off > a ctrl- in the gnome key binding settings. > i hope someone has heard of something, else my next step is > to look into hitting C/gmone programming to try and achieve it, > or perhaps into X. maybe digging into some tablet X driver can > give me some ideas, but i am just hoping someone knows of a > tool or easier way to do this. xte (part of xautomation) is supposed to be able to move the mouse with the mousemove command: http://linux.die.net/man/1/xte -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 14:49:43 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:49:43 -0400 Subject: OT: It's the little things Message-ID: <4ACF4D87.4000009@alteeve.com> So I've got this MEC backpack with a laptop slot that has a little velcro strap to hold the laptop in place. Originally I though "meh, where is it going to go? Then today, late for the train, I ran into the station and the rest of the contents of my bag went flying everywhere. In my rush I forgot to zip up my bag. The only thing that didn't go flying was my laptop! So ya, it's the little things that make a difference. :) Now to see if the backup drive was ruined... :( Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 16:29:08 2009 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT] Source for Locking SATA Cables Message-ID: <837030.14245.qm@web88105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Anyong know a local source for these. Some surfing left me to include that it is a common problem that these come off the hard drive. I have found mail order sources for ones with locking clips. Anyone know of a brick & morter source in Toronto? Thanks Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 16:43:02 2009 From: efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ed F. McCurdy) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 12:43:02 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:27:57 EDT." References: Message-ID: <24251.1255106582@lowell> Rajinder> I am looking to make a crypto module for Ruby This project wraps openssl for use from python: http://chandlerproject.org/bin/view/Projects/MeTooCrypto It could be used as guide for how to build a similar interface for Ruby. Regards, Ed -- Edward F. McCurdy | efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 18:32:10 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:32:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7fc604580910091132r3af6cbe8y4c9b4ac0a46e4645@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/8 D. Hugh Redelmeier | > http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/28/charlie-brooker-microsoft-mac-windows > > I have to say that I thought that this was a despicable article. > I can't perceive the word "despicable" without drawing a mental picture of it being said by Daffy Duck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq8F8PeDBOU > Instead of reason, it used mockery. Silly shallow mockery. Based on > stereotypes. Kind of like what a bully does. > Or kind of like the British style of humour, which is overloaded with sarcasm, mockery, exaggeration and feigned nastiness. Where else would anyone think that Ricky Gervais is funny, Gordon Ramsey is a good chef, that or that Anne Robinson and Simon Cowell are an entertaining TV personalities? This is the style of argument that divides the world into "us" and "them" > and argues we're right because we're us. > It's not argument. It's humour, or at least an attempt that I found moderately amusing. - Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 18:42:34 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:42:34 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910091132r3af6cbe8y4c9b4ac0a46e4645-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <7fc604580910091132r3af6cbe8y4c9b4ac0a46e4645@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACF841A.2050203@moores.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > This is the style of argument that divides the world into "us" and > "them" and argues we're right because we're us. > > > > It's not argument. It's humour, or at least an attempt that I found > moderately amusing. > > - Evan > Ah yes, well, that is because he only thought it was an argument. What it really was, is abuse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 18:44:46 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:44:46 -0400 Subject: mousing in linux, center mouse, or place it top of screen or bottom, with short cut?? In-Reply-To: <200910090940.20494.amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <20091008155719.a11fb1f9.tleslie@tcn.net> <200910090940.20494.amarjan@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20091009144446.6518ea17.tleslie@tcn.net> Perfect, works great!!!! thanks. -tl On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:40:20 -0400 Andrej Marjan wrote: > On October 8, 2009 03:57:19 pm ted leslie wrote: > > > so what i have now is good, but what would really be great is > > a ctrl sequence or alt key that w ould center, top, or bottom > > position the mouse/cursor instantly, > > and i get zip in googles because the search words seem to be some > > common with about any discussion talking about mousing around, > > so i have found nothing on whether this is possible. > > for that matter, if there is any way to position the mouse > > via some simple command, i can write some script to run off > > a ctrl- in the gnome key binding settings. > > i hope someone has heard of something, else my next step is > > to look into hitting C/gmone programming to try and achieve it, > > or perhaps into X. maybe digging into some tablet X driver can > > give me some ideas, but i am just hoping someone knows of a > > tool or easier way to do this. > > xte (part of xautomation) is supposed to be able to move the mouse with the > mousemove command: > > http://linux.die.net/man/1/xte > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 18:49:36 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:49:36 -0400 Subject: [OT] Source for Locking SATA Cables In-Reply-To: <837030.14245.qm-W9LGSkMRpjmB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <837030.14245.qm@web88105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091009184936.GX26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 09:29:08AM -0700, Stephen wrote: > Anyong know a local source for these. > > Some surfing left me to include that it is a common problem that these come off the hard drive. > > I have found mail order sources for ones with locking clips. > > Anyone know of a brick & morter source in Toronto? http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=019679&cid=CAB.742.860 Personally I find most SATA cables stick on quite well, but I have encountered a couple of the years that would fall off. I have only ever seen one locking cable so far. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 18:50:46 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:50:46 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <4ACF841A.2050203-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <7fc604580910091132r3af6cbe8y4c9b4ac0a46e4645@mail.gmail.com> <4ACF841A.2050203@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4ACF8606.2050108@moores.ca> Sorry wrong link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdS7ffB-usY&feature=related :-( (kinda spoils the joke. oh well) Darryl Moore wrote: > > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > >> This is the style of argument that divides the world into "us" and >> "them" and argues we're right because we're us. >> >> >> >> It's not argument. It's humour, or at least an attempt that I found >> moderately amusing. >> >> - Evan >> > > > Ah yes, well, that is because he only thought it was an argument. What > it really was, is abuse > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM > > > :-) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 21:41:47 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 17:41:47 -0400 Subject: clustering is SO AWESOME Message-ID: <4ACFAE1B.7030803@alteeve.com> The last couple of weeks I've been messing around with clustering here at the office. I've been banging my head against the wall trying to get it working (busted CentOS RPMs aside...). Anyway, I've got it working now and oh wow! When it works, it is a thing of beauty. If I had portable enough hardware I would love to give a talk on it. For example; I've got a simple 2-node cluster running LVM on DRBD. This acts as a base for a set of Xen VMs. I use on-board IPMI as my fence devices and CentOS/Red Hat Cluster suite for the magic. I've been testing failure and recovery. Just now I decided to bite the bullet and kill both nodes (simulated power event). This was were things kept falling apart for me up until now. This time though, with the bugs squashed, it recovered fine. It's how it recovered that was so sweet. So I fire up the first node and set to work on the docs. After about five minutes I think "well, it should be up, lets see how bad it is". I fire up 'luci' and log in to check the cluster state. It said both nodes were up and the cluster was fine. Now, I think to myself "crap, what went soooo wrong that it thinks the cluster is ok??". So I log in and start parsing the log file. Then I see this: ------------------------------------- Oct 9 17:12:26 vsh02 openais[3748]: [CLM ] got nodejoin message 10.255.135.2 Oct 9 17:12:26 vsh02 ccsd[3742]: Initial status:: Quorate Oct 9 17:13:17 vsh02 fenced[3767]: vsh03.canadaequity.com not a cluster member after 3 sec post_join_delay Oct 9 17:13:17 vsh02 fenced[3767]: fencing node "vsh03.canadaequity.com" Oct 9 17:13:17 vsh02 kernel: tg3: eth1: Link is down. Oct 9 17:13:23 vsh02 kernel: tg3: eth1: Link is up at 1000 Mbps, full duplex. Oct 9 17:13:23 vsh02 kernel: tg3: eth1: Flow control is off for TX and off for RX. Oct 9 17:13:24 vsh02 fenced[3767]: fence "vsh03.canadaequity.com" success ------------------------------------- That's right, the first node said "hey, my buddy isn't here! Let me call him." and BOOTED THE OTHER NODE. Sure enough, a few minutes later, it came online, rejoined the cluster, sync'ed it's data over DRBD and all was good. That is sooooo coooool. Time for the weekend! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 22:05:41 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:05:41 -0400 Subject: clustering is SO AWESOME In-Reply-To: <4ACFAE1B.7030803-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACFAE1B.7030803@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4ACFB3B5.6000006@moores.ca> I wrote a script to automate the building of basic block device clusters using DRBD. I've started writing other scripts to build services on top of that. So far just NFS, by I plan to do MySQL, and others too. I'm really impressed with DRBD so far, though I haven't put it into a production environment yet. Soon I hope. The only down side of DRBD is that only one machine is the master at any given time which means that the other one is idle and a waste of resources. It is a good idea to give the slave a few other duties so that it doesn't ever get too bored. The other thing you can do is make your DRBD cluster doubled headed. I.E. have each machine be the master of separate resources and also be the backup for each other. I've recently updated my build scripts to do this, though I haven't tested it yet. As soon as I get my high availability SQL build scripts going I'm going to build a double headed NFS / MySQL cluster and take it for a spin. One thing to watch out for, regardless of how you build it, is that you don't load down the slaves during normal operations to such an extent that they will not be able to cope with the additional load in the event that the master goes down. cheers and happy thanksgiving weekend, darryl Madison Kelly wrote: > The last couple of weeks I've been messing around with clustering here > at the office. I've been banging my head against the wall trying to get > it working (busted CentOS RPMs aside...). > > Anyway, I've got it working now and oh wow! When it works, it is a thing > of beauty. If I had portable enough hardware I would love to give a talk > on it. > > For example; > > I've got a simple 2-node cluster running LVM on DRBD. This acts as a > base for a set of Xen VMs. I use on-board IPMI as my fence devices and > CentOS/Red Hat Cluster suite for the magic. > > I've been testing failure and recovery. Just now I decided to bite the > bullet and kill both nodes (simulated power event). This was were things > kept falling apart for me up until now. This time though, with the bugs > squashed, it recovered fine. > > It's how it recovered that was so sweet. > > So I fire up the first node and set to work on the docs. After about > five minutes I think "well, it should be up, lets see how bad it is". I > fire up 'luci' and log in to check the cluster state. It said both nodes > were up and the cluster was fine. > > Now, I think to myself "crap, what went soooo wrong that it thinks the > cluster is ok??". So I log in and start parsing the log file. Then I see > this: > > ------------------------------------- > Oct 9 17:12:26 vsh02 openais[3748]: [CLM ] got nodejoin message > 10.255.135.2 > Oct 9 17:12:26 vsh02 ccsd[3742]: Initial status:: Quorate > Oct 9 17:13:17 vsh02 fenced[3767]: vsh03.canadaequity.com not a cluster > member after 3 sec post_join_delay > Oct 9 17:13:17 vsh02 fenced[3767]: fencing node "vsh03.canadaequity.com" > Oct 9 17:13:17 vsh02 kernel: tg3: eth1: Link is down. > Oct 9 17:13:23 vsh02 kernel: tg3: eth1: Link is up at 1000 Mbps, full > duplex. > Oct 9 17:13:23 vsh02 kernel: tg3: eth1: Flow control is off for TX and > off for RX. > Oct 9 17:13:24 vsh02 fenced[3767]: fence "vsh03.canadaequity.com" success > ------------------------------------- > > That's right, the first node said "hey, my buddy isn't here! Let me call > him." and BOOTED THE OTHER NODE. Sure enough, a few minutes later, it > came online, rejoined the cluster, sync'ed it's data over DRBD and all > was good. > > That is sooooo coooool. > > Time for the weekend! > > Madi > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 22:35:22 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 18:35:22 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System Message-ID: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> I just got this via a McMaster RSS feed: "McMaster University has developed a comprehensive, secure, web-based and open source electronic health records system which is ready to be rolled out across Canada." Good to hear considering the recent fiasco. The full article is at http://dailynews.mcmaster.ca/story.cfm?id=6421 -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 23:02:58 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:02:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Microsoft's grinning robots or the Brotherhood of the Mac. Which is worse? In-Reply-To: <4ACF8606.2050108-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910061028oaf7c19doa8943a932764775c@mail.gmail.com> <7fc604580910091132r3af6cbe8y4c9b4ac0a46e4645@mail.gmail.com> <4ACF841A.2050203@moores.ca> <4ACF8606.2050108@moores.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Darryl Moore wrote: > Sorry wrong link: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdS7ffB-usY&feature=related > > :-( You need some Getting Hit on the Head lessons. > (kinda spoils the joke. oh well) > > Darryl Moore wrote: >> >> Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> >>> ? ? This is the style of argument that divides the world into "us" and >>> ? ? "them" and argues we're right because we're us. >>> >>> >>> >>> It's not argument. It's humour, or at least an attempt that I found >>> moderately amusing. >>> >>> ?- Evan >>> >> >> >> Ah yes, well, that is because he only thought it was an argument. What >> it really was, is abuse >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM >> >> >> :-) >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 23:45:01 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:45:01 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> Unfortunately it's a piece of crap. On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I just got this via a McMaster RSS feed: > > "McMaster University has developed a comprehensive, secure, web-based > and open source electronic health records system which is ready to be > rolled out across Canada." > > Good to hear considering the recent fiasco. > > The full article is at http://dailynews.mcmaster.ca/story.cfm?id=6421 > > -- > Scott Elcomb > http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 > > Member of the Pirate Party of Canada > http://www.pirateparty.ca/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 9 23:57:20 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:57:20 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0910091657u3f5254f1oea39cd3661a54ac1@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Dave Cramer wrote: > Unfortunately it's a piece of crap. Well that's a little disappointing. Can you expand on your response a bit? TIA -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 00:00:57 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 20:00:57 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 19:45, Dave Cramer wrote: > Unfortunately it's a piece of crap. > Well, they need to start somewhere, when any software starts it's a piece of crap, give it time. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 00:26:31 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:26:31 -0400 Subject: clustering is SO AWESOME In-Reply-To: <4ACFB3B5.6000006-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACFAE1B.7030803@alteeve.com> <4ACFB3B5.6000006@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4ACFD4B7.6040409@alteeve.com> Darryl Moore wrote: > I wrote a script to automate the building of basic block device clusters > using DRBD. I've started writing other scripts to build services on top > of that. So far just NFS, by I plan to do MySQL, and others too. Awesome, you have those up anywhere? > I'm really impressed with DRBD so far, though I haven't put it into a > production environment yet. Soon I hope. I've been using DRBD for ~3y now. Just recently though have I switched to the new version and began playing with primary/primary mode. > The only down side of DRBD is that only one machine is the master at any > given time which means that the other one is idle and a waste of resources. Not true any more! :) > It is a good idea to give the slave a few other duties so that it > doesn't ever get too bored. The other thing you can do is make your DRBD > cluster doubled headed. I.E. have each machine be the master of separate > resources and also be the backup for each other. I've recently updated > my build scripts to do this, though I haven't tested it yet. As soon as > I get my high availability SQL build scripts going I'm going to build a > double headed NFS / MySQL cluster and take it for a spin. Check out the new version. With a cluster-aware FS (I personally use LVM with locking), you have have both servers using the DRBD partition at the same time. Also useful are OCFS2, GFS and others. > One thing to watch out for, regardless of how you build it, is that you > don't load down the slaves during normal operations to such an extent > that they will not be able to cope with the additional load in the event > that the master goes down. > > cheers and happy thanksgiving weekend, > darryl In my case, I've got dual CPU, quad-core Opeterons (total of 8 cores) with 32GB/CPU and bring up virtual machines on either server set to use a minimum of X resources and let them balloon out to Y (to use up the unused resources on each node). This way, when one node fails or is taken off line for maintenance, I know I have enough resources to run all VMs on the one node without wasting the resources available when both nodes are alive. If you want any help/hints/whatever getting dual-primary running, let me know. I've bashed my head off this stuff enough... It'd be nice to help save someone else some of the hassle. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 02:05:57 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 22:05:57 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0910091657u3f5254f1oea39cd3661a54ac1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0910091657u3f5254f1oea39cd3661a54ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910091905h29205821t958f6355dbda00b5@mail.gmail.com> It's been around for a long time.probably 5 years It's written in java using just about every technology web based java ever used. Including struts, gwt .... It uses mysql with very little RI. it's very difficult to install Dave On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Scott Elcomb wrote: > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Dave Cramer > wrote: > > Unfortunately it's a piece of crap. > > Well that's a little disappointing. Can you expand on your response a bit? > > TIA > > -- > Scott Elcomb > http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 > > Member of the Pirate Party of Canada > http://www.pirateparty.ca/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 19:06:29 2009 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:06:29 -0400 Subject: Server Weirdness Message-ID: I have been having problems with a CentOS 5.3 Fileserver (64 Bit) lately that wants to run reboot all of a sudden. It was up for over 200 days without an issue. I have run a burn in on the server and it was fine. Checked the memory with memcheck86+ and it was fine. Ran a CPU burn-in along with bonnie++ looping for 5 hours and the I couldn't get the CPU to over heat or the power supply to choke on heavy load. It seems to be a power management problem, yet am even running the same kernel that it ran for 200 days hasn't made the system stable. I did have to replace the motherboard battery but I have restored the BIOS settings and the problems existed before the battery went. The system just stops working without warning and it's getting worse. It only seems to happen when it's somewhat idle for an extended period. It's a Athlon 64x2 3800+ Running on a MSI K9N Platinum with Linux software raid 5 across 4 WD 250 Satas. I have checked the drives and they seem fine. I am currently running FSCK to see if it finds any problems. Anyone else experiencing problems with CentOS 5.3 lately? I am wondering if it's a package that might be causing the instability. And yes I have checked to see if the system was compromised but I haven't found anything. -- Mark Lane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 19:09:35 2009 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:09:35 -0400 Subject: Server Weirdness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update FSCK is finding problems but they appear to be related to the random shutdowns. On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Mark Lane wrote: > I have been having problems with a CentOS 5.3 Fileserver (64 Bit) lately > that wants to run reboot all of a sudden. It was up for over 200 days > without an issue. I have run a burn in on the server and it was fine. > Checked the memory with memcheck86+ and it was fine. Ran a CPU burn-in along > with bonnie++ looping for 5 hours and the I couldn't get the CPU to over > heat or the power supply to choke on heavy load. It seems to be a power > management problem, yet am even running the same kernel that it ran for 200 > days hasn't made the system stable. I did have to replace the motherboard > battery but I have restored the BIOS settings and the problems existed > before the battery went. The system just stops working without warning and > it's getting worse. It only seems to happen when it's somewhat idle for an > extended period. > > It's a Athlon 64x2 3800+ Running on a MSI K9N Platinum with Linux software > raid 5 across 4 WD 250 Satas. I have checked the drives and they seem fine. > I am currently running FSCK to see if it finds any problems. > > Anyone else experiencing problems with CentOS 5.3 lately? I am wondering if > it's a package that might be causing the instability. And yes I have checked > to see if the system was compromised but I haven't found anything. > > > -- > Mark Lane > > -- Mark Lane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 19:12:35 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:12:35 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <4ACD15FD.7060401-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> <4ACD15FD.7060401@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <7fc604580910101212i23e04d61md323be72f9d3bfbf@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/7 CLIFFORD ILKAY > > Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> >> I've recent moved my decades of email archives to Gmail and am very happy to have made the switch ... > > I'm not. I could read your posts before without having to resort to a magnifying glass. Now, it looks like you're using 5 point Times, though I don't understand why because your email is plain-text. Is this any better? As suggested, I've turned off formatting, based on what has been suggested. I'll try and remember to do this in the past, but some messages may inadverently sneak out with the dreaded formatting; I'm subscribed to literally dozens of lists, local and global, and only one insists on plain text only. Apparently it's not just Windows users who have issues with inertia... - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 19:15:51 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:15:51 -0400 Subject: Server Weirdness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD0DD67.3090509@alteeve.com> Mark Lane wrote: > I have been having problems with a CentOS 5.3 Fileserver (64 Bit) lately > that wants to run reboot all of a sudden. It was up for over 200 days > without an issue. I have run a burn in on the server and it was fine. > Checked the memory with memcheck86+ and it was fine. Ran a CPU burn-in > along with bonnie++ looping for 5 hours and the I couldn't get the CPU > to over heat or the power supply to choke on heavy load. It seems to be > a power management problem, yet am even running the same kernel that it > ran for 200 days hasn't made the system stable. I did have to replace > the motherboard battery but I have restored the BIOS settings and the > problems existed before the battery went. The system just stops working > without warning and it's getting worse. It only seems to happen when > it's somewhat idle for an extended period. > > It's a Athlon 64x2 3800+ Running on a MSI K9N Platinum with Linux > software raid 5 across 4 WD 250 Satas. I have checked the drives and > they seem fine. I am currently running FSCK to see if it finds any > problems. > > Anyone else experiencing problems with CentOS 5.3 lately? I am wondering > if it's a package that might be causing the instability. And yes I have > checked to see if the system was compromised but I haven't found anything. What daemons/services are you running? I've run into bad openais and cman RPMs that messed things up, but not reboots (unless you have fence devices in which case they could be in a fence loop, but not likely). As for possible simple problems, check the fans. If they're sleeve-bearing fans, they could have "spun out". They'll work sometimes (sometimes with noise, other times quiet), and occasionally stop. If they were running during your burn-in you would not reproduce the reboots. However, if they stop, particularly the CPU fan, it could over-heat and trigger a thermal shutdown/reboot. A bad power supply could also do this, but that is less likely. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 19:47:08 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:47:08 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910101212i23e04d61md323be72f9d3bfbf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> <4ACD15FD.7060401@dinamis.com> <7fc604580910101212i23e04d61md323be72f9d3bfbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD0E4BC.4060906@dinamis.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > 2009/10/7 CLIFFORD ILKAY >> Evan Leibovitch wrote: >>> I've recent moved my decades of email archives to Gmail and am very happy to have made the switch ... >> I'm not. I could read your posts before without having to resort to a magnifying glass. Now, it looks like you're using 5 point Times, though I don't understand why because your email is plain-text. > > > Is this any better? As suggested, I've turned off formatting, based on > what has been suggested. I see 10pt Courier now, which isn't the default font I have in T'bird but again, your message seems like it's plain-text to me so I have no idea why T'bird 2x running on Fedora 11 64 bit displays it that way. When I look at it on T'bird running on 32 bit Kubuntu Hardy, it looks no different than any other plain-text message. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 19:50:29 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:50:29 -0400 Subject: Server Weirdness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD0E585.6000200@dinamis.com> Mark Lane wrote: > I have been having problems with a CentOS 5.3 Fileserver (64 Bit) lately > that wants to run reboot all of a sudden. [snip] We had a Dell server Windows 2003 Server that was misbehaving exactly the same way at a client, random reboots, random BSODs. Memtest didn't catch anything. Dell sent us replacement RAM, CPU, and power supply, all to no avail. An on-site tech eventually replaced the motherboard when he concluded that we had bad capacitors on the motherboard and it has been running fine ever since. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 22:03:28 2009 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:03:28 -0400 Subject: mousing in linux, center mouse, or place it top of screen or bottom, with short cut?? In-Reply-To: <20091008165620.4731c9e4.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20091008155719.a11fb1f9.tleslie@tcn.net> <1f13df280910081320y105fd3fey499cd703e4bb6a95@mail.gmail.com> <20091008165620.4731c9e4.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <4AD104B0.8010704@utoronto.ca> ted leslie wrote: > at 1200+$ delivered your interest probably just wained, > www.datahand.com > it is the most advanced keyboard in the world, but , comes at a price. > they are also only special order now too, as company isnt in too good of shape > from what I read on googling them, > but given i want to hack for life, you know, into my 90's+ > this thing is worth its weight in clear cut diamonds. I wonder what this would do for gaming? Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 22:20:05 2009 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:20:05 -0400 Subject: Server Weirdness In-Reply-To: <4AD0E585.6000200-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD0E585.6000200@dinamis.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I am sure that's what it is now. It restarted during an fsck check so minimal stuff was running. Getting a similar motherboard to replace that will be hard so I think it will be much easier to build a new server and move the files over. On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 3:50 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Mark Lane wrote: > >> I have been having problems with a CentOS 5.3 Fileserver (64 Bit) lately >> that wants to run reboot all of a sudden. >> > [snip] > > We had a Dell server Windows 2003 Server that was misbehaving exactly the > same way at a client, random reboots, random BSODs. Memtest didn't catch > anything. Dell sent us replacement RAM, CPU, and power supply, all to no > avail. An on-site tech eventually replaced the motherboard when he concluded > that we had bad capacitors on the motherboard and it has been running fine > ever since. > -- > Regards, > > Clifford Ilkay > Dinamis > 1419-3266 Yonge St. > Toronto, ON > Canada M4N 3P6 > > > +1 416-410-3326 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Mark Lane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 22:22:19 2009 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:22:19 -0400 Subject: Server Weirdness In-Reply-To: <4AD0DD67.3090509-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD0DD67.3090509@alteeve.com> Message-ID: Yeah it's not the fans the system is running at about 47C even under heavy load. The hottest I could get the processors was only 50C so well with in tolerances. Also I don't think it's the power supply because it's not going down under heavy power usage. On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Mark Lane wrote: > >> I have been having problems with a CentOS 5.3 Fileserver (64 Bit) lately >> that wants to run reboot all of a sudden. It was up for over 200 days >> without an issue. I have run a burn in on the server and it was fine. >> Checked the memory with memcheck86+ and it was fine. Ran a CPU burn-in along >> with bonnie++ looping for 5 hours and the I couldn't get the CPU to over >> heat or the power supply to choke on heavy load. It seems to be a power >> management problem, yet am even running the same kernel that it ran for 200 >> days hasn't made the system stable. I did have to replace the motherboard >> battery but I have restored the BIOS settings and the problems existed >> before the battery went. The system just stops working without warning and >> it's getting worse. It only seems to happen when it's somewhat idle for an >> extended period. >> >> It's a Athlon 64x2 3800+ Running on a MSI K9N Platinum with Linux software >> raid 5 across 4 WD 250 Satas. I have checked the drives and they seem fine. >> I am currently running FSCK to see if it finds any problems. >> >> Anyone else experiencing problems with CentOS 5.3 lately? I am wondering >> if it's a package that might be causing the instability. And yes I have >> checked to see if the system was compromised but I haven't found anything. >> > > What daemons/services are you running? I've run into bad openais and cman > RPMs that messed things up, but not reboots (unless you have fence devices > in which case they could be in a fence loop, but not likely). > > As for possible simple problems, check the fans. If they're sleeve-bearing > fans, they could have "spun out". They'll work sometimes (sometimes with > noise, other times quiet), and occasionally stop. If they were running > during your burn-in you would not reproduce the reboots. However, if they > stop, particularly the CPU fan, it could over-heat and trigger a thermal > shutdown/reboot. > > A bad power supply could also do this, but that is less likely. > > Madi > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Mark Lane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 22:33:53 2009 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:33:53 -0400 Subject: Server Weirdness In-Reply-To: References: <4AD0E585.6000200@dinamis.com> Message-ID: Actually Tiger Direct has the newer version of that board with 4GB of RAM for 189. So I guess I can replace it. On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Mark Lane wrote: > Yeah, I am sure that's what it is now. It restarted during an fsck check so > minimal stuff was running. Getting a similar motherboard to replace that > will be hard so I think it will be much easier to build a new server and > move the files over. > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 3:50 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY < > clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> Mark Lane wrote: >> >>> I have been having problems with a CentOS 5.3 Fileserver (64 Bit) lately >>> that wants to run reboot all of a sudden. >>> >> [snip] >> >> We had a Dell server Windows 2003 Server that was misbehaving exactly the >> same way at a client, random reboots, random BSODs. Memtest didn't catch >> anything. Dell sent us replacement RAM, CPU, and power supply, all to no >> avail. An on-site tech eventually replaced the motherboard when he concluded >> that we had bad capacitors on the motherboard and it has been running fine >> ever since. >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Clifford Ilkay >> Dinamis >> 1419-3266 Yonge St. >> Toronto, ON >> Canada M4N 3P6 >> >> >> +1 416-410-3326 >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > Mark Lane > > -- Mark Lane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 10 22:43:06 2009 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:43:06 -0400 Subject: Server Weirdness In-Reply-To: References: <4AD0E585.6000200@dinamis.com> Message-ID: Opps I was on tigerdirect.com. The motherboard is $202 Canadian by itself. On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Mark Lane wrote: > Actually Tiger Direct has the newer version of that board with 4GB of RAM > for 189. So I guess I can replace it. > > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Mark Lane wrote: > >> Yeah, I am sure that's what it is now. It restarted during an fsck check >> so minimal stuff was running. Getting a similar motherboard to replace that >> will be hard so I think it will be much easier to build a new server and >> move the files over. >> >> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 3:50 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY < >> clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote: >> >>> Mark Lane wrote: >>> >>>> I have been having problems with a CentOS 5.3 Fileserver (64 Bit) lately >>>> that wants to run reboot all of a sudden. >>>> >>> [snip] >>> >>> We had a Dell server Windows 2003 Server that was misbehaving exactly the >>> same way at a client, random reboots, random BSODs. Memtest didn't catch >>> anything. Dell sent us replacement RAM, CPU, and power supply, all to no >>> avail. An on-site tech eventually replaced the motherboard when he concluded >>> that we had bad capacitors on the motherboard and it has been running fine >>> ever since. >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Clifford Ilkay >>> Dinamis >>> 1419-3266 Yonge St. >>> Toronto, ON >>> Canada M4N 3P6 >>> >>> >>> +1 416-410-3326 >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Mark Lane >> >> > > > -- > Mark Lane > > -- Mark Lane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 11 00:43:29 2009 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:43:29 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910101212i23e04d61md323be72f9d3bfbf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> <4ACD15FD.7060401@dinamis.com> <7fc604580910101212i23e04d61md323be72f9d3bfbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD12A31.7040404@sympatico.ca> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > 2009/10/7 CLIFFORD ILKAY > >> Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> >>> I've recent moved my decades of email archives to Gmail and am very happy to have made the switch ... >>> >> I'm not. I could read your posts before without having to resort to a magnifying glass. Now, it looks like you're using 5 point Times, though I don't understand why because your email is plain-text. >> > > > Is this any better? As suggested, I've turned off formatting, based on > what has been suggested. > > I'll try and remember to do this in the past, but some messages may > inadverently sneak out with the dreaded formatting; I'm subscribed to > literally dozens of lists, local and global, and only one insists on > plain text only. > > Apparently it's not just Windows users who have issues with inertia... > > - Evan It might be more useful if you try to remember to do this in the future. Unless, of course, you have the unique ability to change the past :-). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 11 02:16:53 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:16:53 -0400 Subject: [OT] folders in gmail In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910101212i23e04d61md323be72f9d3bfbf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACC2B0B.2020103@gmail.com> <7fc604580910070940l614956ccm9cb15e547b5fb2e8@mail.gmail.com> <4ACD15FD.7060401@dinamis.com> <7fc604580910101212i23e04d61md323be72f9d3bfbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I'll try and remember to do this in the past, but some messages may > inadverently sneak out with the dreaded formatting; I'm subscribed to > literally dozens of lists, local and global, and only one insists on > plain text only. > > Apparently it's not just Windows users who have issues with inertia... I'm on other lists where this issue comes up... There are people I get email from (mostly at work) where I have to filter out huge amounts of irritating "MS-HTML cruft" in order to read the contents. It's *really* irritating when people embed Word documents into their emails because they felt like writing with Word. I'm with Scott McNealy on this... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html "Let's face it -- ASCII text is a far richer medium than most of us deserve." -- Scott McNealy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 11 18:03:51 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:03:51 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib In-Reply-To: <1255056259.6320.77.camel@goofz> References: <1255056259.6320.77.camel@goofz> Message-ID: <4AD21E07.20904@gmail.com> Andrei wrote: > Crypto++ is very good and complete (+ as a bonus, shared builds are > possible,I don't think it has other dependencies and builds on both unix > and windows). > Openssl is quite known, however I found it hard to use. Len also mentioned using openssl, but yes I just want a lib that is easy to build and use. I have to admit I don't know anything about openssl, so without a document that will hold my hands, specially one without some accompanying API usage, I would be lost. I will take a closer look at Crypto++, I just noticed it also provides compression using the well known algorithms, which would be handy for sending over large data sets. I assume you've worked with the Crypto++ APIs, and found it easy to use? anything you could point me to if you have, reading wise. Thanks! > Andrei > > On Thu, 2009-10-08 at 17:27 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I am wondering if there is a good cryptography lib C/C++ that is >> pretty much self contained and easy to build as a shared lib? It would >> also need to be well documented on usage / APIs. >> >> I started to look for Blowfish and came across "Twofish" but the >> author provides source code (on his site) but it's lacking >> documentation, etc. I am looking to make a crypto module for Ruby that >> will be fast and efficient vs Ruby native Gems that exist. >> >> Now that I've managed to get figure out how to call my C++ code from >> Ruby, I think this will be my first contribution to the Open Source >> community, and I am kind of excited about the idea. >> >> I need help in tracking down a good crytpo library that's easy to >> build for my 1st crack at this. Would GnuPGP fit this bill if anyone >> has experience building a shared lib? >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 11 18:09:34 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:09:34 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib In-Reply-To: <24251.1255106582@lowell> References: <24251.1255106582@lowell> Message-ID: <4AD21F5E.7000707@gmail.com> Ed F. McCurdy wrote: > Rajinder> I am looking to make a crypto module for Ruby > > This project wraps openssl for use from python: > > http://chandlerproject.org/bin/view/Projects/MeTooCrypto > > It could be used as guide for how to build a similar interface > for Ruby. > Hi Ed, on the M2Crypto website, I read this: > "M2Crypto's unit tests cover over 80% of the Python code." What does that mean, the code is written mostly in python? With Ruby I am planning on doing all the heavy lifting in C/C++ code and just writing Ruby wrappers. Would know have an idea how M2Crypto is coded, thanks! > Regards, > Ed -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 11 19:47:31 2009 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:47:31 -0400 Subject: Laptop Batteries Message-ID: <200910111547.31369.mervc@eol.ca> A while back this topic came up and someone had a spot in the city which had a pretty good selection. My daughter-in-law has a Toshiba laptop which needs a new battery and Toshiba don't stock them any more. I haven't found the location in my copies of list messages, could someone remember who it was? Thanks -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.10 KMail 1.9.9 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 11 20:05:21 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:05:21 -0400 Subject: Laptop Batteries In-Reply-To: <200910111547.31369.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200910111547.31369.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <4AD23A81.3030008@alteeve.com> Merv Curley wrote: > A while back this topic came up and someone had a spot in the city which had a > pretty good selection. My daughter-in-law has a Toshiba laptop which needs a > new battery and Toshiba don't stock them any more. > > I haven't found the location in my copies of list messages, could someone > remember who it was? > > Thanks > I think it was me (or at least, me plus others). I've gotten batteries from here: http://www.laptopcloseout.ca They were nice, they let me plug in the battery and check how many times it had been cycled before I bought it. Decent price, too. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 12 05:32:35 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 01:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Laptop Batteries In-Reply-To: <200910111547.31369.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200910111547.31369.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: | From: Merv Curley | My daughter-in-law has a Toshiba laptop which needs a | new battery and Toshiba don't stock them any more. I bought a battery for my daughter's Dell through a local store. I found it through googling. The store and the battery seemed fine and not too expensive. I cannot say how they would compare with other places. The battery is working over a year later (as one would hope). The store is in a mall in Scarborough. It seems like a normal non-chain computer store. They did sell refurb computers too. http://www.gtalaptops.com/buy/#j273 "Original" means that it is a Toshiba brand battery. "generic" means the battery is not Toshiba-branded. I chose a "generic" battery even though I thought it slightly more risky. They don't have the batteries in stock: you order them, with some money up front. I could have bypassed the middleman and ordered over the web but I felt more comfortable with a physical storefront. Also: consider phoning these people: http://www.ccsiweb.ca/home.asp They seem to have some inside track with Toshiba. (I've not dealt with them.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 12 06:41:07 2009 From: andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org (Andrew Cowie) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:41:07 +1100 Subject: Laptop Batteries In-Reply-To: <200910111547.31369.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200910111547.31369.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <1255329667.31991.10.camel@moonglow> On Sun, 2009-10-11 at 15:47 -0400, Merv Curley wrote: > A while back this topic came up and someone had a spot in the city which had a > pretty good selection. My daughter-in-law has a Toshiba laptop which needs a > new battery and Toshiba don't stock them any more. That being the case you have little choice but to go after-market, but [some years ago now] I had repeated experiences of buying generic look-alike Toshiba batteries from third-party suppliers only to have them last less than a month and then be completely dead. One time we cracked it open and found weights instead of batteries. Another time we found alkaline single use AA cells instead of lithium ion cells... It's certainly unfair of me to paint such a wide brush; perhaps there are reliable third-party part makers out there, but they complete against all the other dodgy laptop battery selling websites out there, and they don't exactly thrive on repeat business from individual buyers. AfC Sydney -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics is an operations and engineering consultancy focusing on IT strategy, organizational architecture, systems review, and effective procedures for change management: enabling successful deployment of mission critical information technology in enterprises, worldwide. http://www.operationaldynamics.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 12 15:15:07 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:15:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: free laser printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, it's been almost a month since I last offered this. The person who said he'd take it hasn't shown up and does not answer private emails. So I'm offering it again. The original person may also request this but will not be given priority over others. I've seen toner cartridges offered for $35 on craigslist. (I find that giving things away on FreeCycle is more trouble than it is worth. One reason is that too many people who say they want something don't follow through or in other ways make things difficult.) | Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:34:55 -0400 (EDT) | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | To: Toronto Linux Users Group | Subject: [TLUG]: free laser printer | | Would anyone like my Brother HL1435 printer? | http://solutions.brother.com/hl1435/spec.html | It works fine with Linux. | | The only problem is that it has no toner. Toner cartridges are almost | as expensive as on-sale lasers printers. | http://www.staples.ca/ENG/Catalog/cat_class.asp?CatIds=419%2C422,1150&name=MD_Brother_HL-1435& | | If you are willing to refill the cartridge, the price gets better. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 12 19:54:43 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:54:43 -0400 Subject: OT: writing a book, creating a community, etc.... Message-ID: <4AD38983.3040906@gmail.com> Well, I just came across this blog and found out you really don't make much money writing a tech book? It seems some of the authors are really smart, some cover a vast amount of material, others may go into a subject a bit deeper. Yet you get pimped by the publisher at the end. http://beginningruby.org/ These days my mind is all over the map trying to be an entrepreneur. So I am playing with several ideas. I started to write my own cheat sheet while learning Ruby, it's now grown and become to be known as 'RubyQuickNotes'. Being a programmer, I kept to small notes about language syntax and usage (mostly for me), it's not long winded with fluff (yet) and still some areas are not complete and I am already up to 76 page with no page breaks, picture, or diagrams. I also gave up on LYX and Latex, it (Lyx) is buggy and annoying as hell, you still ended up fight Lyx trying to get things to layout, I don't care too much for their mantra. The few times, I would have an error when trying to view, and had to undo the last few edits to figure out where the dam stupid error was coming from. I got paranoid with my writing as it started to get long that I would type, save and try to view. It was not the most effective way to work. Trying to add sample code was annoying, never mind trying to add picture with layout, I didn't even bother. I know I was headed down the wrong path to hell with Lyx so I bailed and transferred the tech notes to using OpenOffice. It's like night and day! I am a MS Word kind of guy and this does everything Lyx can do but easier and without the stupid view build error or learning Latex code that stop you cold at odd times. The version of Lyx I have (latest on Kubuntu) could not export to text, my code sample was missing. I had to learn Latex to insert code section by hand, was a pain in the neck, and in the end the sample code output was lost. OpenOffice I added a test picture with ease, TOC, tables, can generate my PDF without errors. I am sure I can save it in MS format and open it in word on my Window box. For my notes, if I were to even try looking for a publisher for a book with the idea of my notes becoming a workshop style book with examples and (short) walk though exercises it would only be for fame? but not fortune. Well not fortune from the book, the real money would be found in doing the talk show thing, be a speaker and having your own lecture and training class charging peepz $2000 to attend your class! So, in the end, if you're smart and talented in that area, you end up giving away your ebook for free on the internet, you sell the printed version, get your name out there and give talks and classes. I would love to do that if I could find someone smarter or more experienced than me to hook up with or passionate enough to just go for it. A year from now I would like to see how far I can take my ideas, before I joined TLUG I ended up taking one of those personal growth seminar and I have to say it had a strong impact on me. It got me off the fence about thinking to sharing and talking and being in action. Anyone know or heard of any good local, must be local entrepreneur network / mentorship places. I know I need to keep moving with my ideas and make something of them, but want to leap-frog those stages/areas where people make a lot of trial and error learning that other have figure a way around or learned to ignore, case in point forget publishing, go for the training classes if that's your think about teaching. My real reason to learn Ruby and Rails is to be able to slap up a online merchandising website, starting off selling custom designed printed (geek) tee shirts, it's more for the experience and learning to create a powerful community. FYI: the online tee shirt thing, looked into it, its been done (working model) to show you can make money, visited local print shop and one owner told me there was money to be made, he started off like I did printing a few tees. There is one site online that is selling over 1 million tee a year, it was started up by 2 web developers who fumbled their way to success, and they don't design the tee, the community does, they just pick, print and make money. That didn't happen over night unfortunately, but it's possible for anyone, not rocket science here. I've been told most successful entrepreneurs failed at their first few ideas before they got it right, so the tee shirt thing is not my ultimate goal, but I am not starting it up to fail either. If I succeed cool, it will become my cash cow for my other ideas, if not I will take everything from it and the experience and try again with something different. Think of criagslist, it's built a community and it's something anyone with some programing skills can reproduce with little starting cost, it provided a good live for its creator/owner and a few of his employees. If anyone on here is trying to get something going or knows of a good network site or just wants to talk, I would not mind meeting up from time to time for beers and motivating/stimulating talks with each other liked minded geeks, or starting up a social group, etc. I know trying to be a lone entrepreneur in your house, one can feel burden at times, and other people just don't seem to get you! Most have heard your stories a million time how you're going to do something =P -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 12 19:55:07 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:55:07 -0400 Subject: clustering is SO AWESOME In-Reply-To: <4ACFD4B7.6040409-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACFAE1B.7030803@alteeve.com> <4ACFB3B5.6000006@moores.ca> <4ACFD4B7.6040409@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4AD3899B.9030109@moores.ca> Hey Madi, just a quick note. Are you aware that LINBIT do not yet recommend DRBD running primary-primary for production environments yet? http://www.drbd.org/home/mirroring/ DRBD's primary-primary mode with a shared disk file system (GFS, OCFS2). These systems are very sensitive to failures of the replication network. Currently we cannot generally recommend this for production use. You say that it is not true anymore that the slave will be idle most of the time. I'm unsure how this would be. One of the ways DRBD works is that the master node assumes the cluster IP address. When it goes down the slave takes over that address. Accessing the cluster via the slave would be problematic without the custer IP address. You could do it via the nodes regular IP, but then if it goes down you have a more complicated issue in trying to discover this. As well, even from the documentation I've seen on their website, accessing data through the slave device via snapshots still means read only. Lastly, from the configurations I've seen, (and modeled by build scripts after), the actual service daemons are not even running on the slave until the master goes down. Perhaps I am missing something and do not yet fully appreciate the power of DRBD. If I am, I'd be grateful if you could enlighten me as to how these issues are resolved. I think using a different file system such as GFS might resolve some of them, but not all. I certainly haven't yet contemplated how to set up a system like this yet. I'm still in the process of testing and documenting my build scripts. I will be posting all of them shortly. My target date is around the middle of next month. I can post what I have so far if you want to offer criticism, but keep in mind they are unfinished. My target systems are Ubuntu, so they would need a bit of adapting for other distros, particularly non-debian ones. cheers, darryl Madison Kelly wrote: > Darryl Moore wrote: >> I wrote a script to automate the building of basic block device clusters >> using DRBD. I've started writing other scripts to build services on top >> of that. So far just NFS, by I plan to do MySQL, and others too. > > Awesome, you have those up anywhere? > >> I'm really impressed with DRBD so far, though I haven't put it into a >> production environment yet. Soon I hope. > > I've been using DRBD for ~3y now. Just recently though have I switched > to the new version and began playing with primary/primary mode. > >> The only down side of DRBD is that only one machine is the master at any >> given time which means that the other one is idle and a waste of >> resources. > > Not true any more! :) > >> It is a good idea to give the slave a few other duties so that it >> doesn't ever get too bored. The other thing you can do is make your DRBD >> cluster doubled headed. I.E. have each machine be the master of separate >> resources and also be the backup for each other. I've recently updated >> my build scripts to do this, though I haven't tested it yet. As soon as >> I get my high availability SQL build scripts going I'm going to build a >> double headed NFS / MySQL cluster and take it for a spin. > > Check out the new version. With a cluster-aware FS (I personally use LVM > with locking), you have have both servers using the DRBD partition at > the same time. Also useful are OCFS2, GFS and others. > >> One thing to watch out for, regardless of how you build it, is that you >> don't load down the slaves during normal operations to such an extent >> that they will not be able to cope with the additional load in the event >> that the master goes down. >> >> cheers and happy thanksgiving weekend, >> darryl > > In my case, I've got dual CPU, quad-core Opeterons (total of 8 cores) > with 32GB/CPU and bring up virtual machines on either server set to use > a minimum of X resources and let them balloon out to Y (to use up the > unused resources on each node). This way, when one node fails or is > taken off line for maintenance, I know I have enough resources to run > all VMs on the one node without wasting the resources available when > both nodes are alive. > > If you want any help/hints/whatever getting dual-primary running, let me > know. I've bashed my head off this stuff enough... It'd be nice to help > save someone else some of the hassle. > > Madi > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 12 22:33:41 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:33:41 -0400 Subject: clustering is SO AWESOME In-Reply-To: <4AD3899B.9030109-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACFAE1B.7030803@alteeve.com> <4ACFB3B5.6000006@moores.ca> <4ACFD4B7.6040409@alteeve.com> <4AD3899B.9030109@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4AD3AEC5.3080908@alteeve.com> Darryl Moore wrote: > Hey Madi, just a quick note. > > Are you aware that LINBIT do not yet recommend DRBD running > primary-primary for production environments yet? Yup. > http://www.drbd.org/home/mirroring/ > DRBD's primary-primary mode with a shared disk file system (GFS, OCFS2). > These systems are very sensitive to failures of the replication network. > Currently we cannot generally recommend this for production use. In my case, I have an LVM PV on top of the DRBD. From there, I slice it up into LV; One for each virtual machine. This way, each logical volume, and thus DRBD slice (apologies to the BSD'ers), is only written to from one side of the cluster at a time. This way, I feel, is pretty safe. However, I've been testing various failure and recovery scenarios to be safe. Specifically, things like starting a disk I/O intensive app on a VM, killing it's underlying server and trying to recover the VM on the surviving node. So far, so good. > You say that it is not true anymore that the slave will be idle most of > the time. I'm unsure how this would be. One of the ways DRBD works is > that the master node assumes the cluster IP address. When it goes down > the slave takes over that address. Accessing the cluster via the slave > would be problematic without the custer IP address. You could do it via > the nodes regular IP, but then if it goes down you have a more > complicated issue in trying to discover this. As well, even from the > documentation I've seen on their website, accessing data through the > slave device via snapshots still means read only. Lastly, from the > configurations I've seen, (and modeled by build scripts after), the > actual service daemons are not even running on the slave until the > master goes down. I use Xen to create VMs, I don't use the cluster for individual services any more. I used to, a-la HA Heartbeat manager, but having dedicated, self-contained virtual machines seems more robust so far. In my setup, dom0 is nothing special. I have three NICs; A dedicated DRBD link, a "back channel" used by all VMs which also gives me access to the node's IPMI interface, and a third that is only used by the firewall VM for Internet access. Dom0 nor any of the other VMs use this NIC. Then, I setup each VM to use a minimum number of CPUs and RAM. Specifically, an amount that adds up to the equivalent to consuming most of the resources available on a single node. Then, I let the VMs "balloon" to use more resources up to a point where the given subset of VMs on a given node consume most of that node's CPU cores and RAM. This way, under normal operation, the VMs have extra headroom to do whatever each does, but are still able to all come up on one node should the other fail. Thus minimizing resource wasting. > Perhaps I am missing something and do not yet fully appreciate the power > of DRBD. If I am, I'd be grateful if you could enlighten me as to how > these issues are resolved. I think using a different file system such as > GFS might resolve some of them, but not all. I certainly haven't yet > contemplated how to set up a system like this yet. I've already documented all the steps needed to do the above, but I did a lot of it for work. I need to talk to my boss to see how or what I can use to create a publicly available document. Once I know, I will use what I can and re-write the rest as a how-to on my website. I'm seeing what I can do to create the docs for a simple 2-node on DRBD and a 3+node using centralized storage on a software-iSCSI/SAN server. If/when I get those done, I'll probably put together a clustering talk, if TLUG is interested. That won't be for some time though, so in the meantime, if you are interested, I'd be happy to share what I know. > I'm still in the process of testing and documenting my build scripts. I > will be posting all of them shortly. My target date is around the middle > of next month. I can post what I have so far if you want to offer > criticism, but keep in mind they are unfinished. My target systems are > Ubuntu, so they would need a bit of adapting for other distros, > particularly non-debian ones. > > cheers, > darryl I'm mainly a Debian/Ubuntu user myself, but work is forcing my hand towards CentOS. I am interested in checking them out, and will be happy to test some scripts for you, too. However, I've got my TPM talk at the end of the month and a fairly scary test in the beginning of December. I doubt I will have much time for extra stuff until after that though. If you're interested though, I'd be curious to take a gander at them in the meantime, even if I don't have the spare cycles just now to run one up. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 12 22:58:42 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:58:42 -0400 Subject: OT: writing a book, creating a community, etc.... In-Reply-To: <4AD38983.3040906-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD38983.3040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7fc604580910121558ob5df10cpc360a5f0af20b542@mail.gmail.com> Maybe I can offer some perspectives based on some work I'm doing at York U. 2009/10/12 Rajinder Yadav : > I just came across this blog and found out you really don't make much money > writing a tech book? It seems some of the authors are really smart, some > cover a vast amount of material, others may go into a subject a bit deeper. > Yet you get pimped by the publisher at the end. [...] > I started to write my own cheat sheet while learning Ruby, it's now grown > and become to be known as 'RubyQuickNotes'. [...] > I know I was headed down the wrong path to hell with Lyx so I bailed and > transferred the tech notes to using OpenOffice. It's like night and day! I > am a MS Word kind of guy and this does everything Lyx can do but easier and > without the stupid view build error or learning Latex code that stop you > cold at odd times. The version of Lyx I have (latest on Kubuntu) ?could not > export to text, my code sample was missing. I had to learn Latex to insert > code section by hand, was a pain in the neck, and in the end the sample code > output was lost. > > OpenOffice I added a test picture with ease, TOC, tables, can generate my > PDF without errors. I am sure I can save it in MS format and open it in word > on my Window box. If you are looking to self-publish, my suggestion is to design and develop and store your book using strict HTML. That way you have a number of options: - Produce as a web page; - Export to PDF; - Publish as an e-book using the ePub format ePub documents are a combination of XML and HTML documents zipped together. It is a format heavily supported by all e-book readers such as the Sony, and can be converted for use with the Amazon Kindle. Software for reading is available for most computer and smartphone OSs (support for Linux, OSX and Android is quite good). And, unlike PDFs, the ePub documents are designed to reformat themselves to be most easily readable using the chosen device (text can be resized and the document re-flows, just like a web page.) There are some challenges (such as doing footnotes for documents that don't have physical pages) but these are surmountable. If you are not looking for revenue you can distribute your work through Google Books or make it available for download on your own website. If you want to sell it, you have the option if applying DRM to ePub if you want through third-party tools. Check out http://www.openebook.org/ for more info on the ePub document standard. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 01:08:09 2009 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:08:09 -0400 Subject: [Bulk]OT: writing a book, creating a community, etc.... In-Reply-To: <4AD38983.3040906-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD38983.3040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD3D2F9.9010603@rogers.com> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > If anyone on here is trying to get something going or knows of a good > network site or just wants to talk, I would not mind meeting up from > time to time for beers and motivating/stimulating talks with each other > liked minded geeks, or starting up a social group, etc. I think you're looking for the barcamp community. Try some searches with terms like: - barcamp toronto - democamp toronto - startupcamp - coworking Good luck on your endeavors. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 12 21:52:38 2009 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sidekick Data Disaster Message-ID: <14195.99.253.254.243.1255384358.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2009/10/12/the_sidekick_data_disaster/ -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 01:51:56 2009 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:51:56 -0400 Subject: Sidekick Data Disaster In-Reply-To: <14195.99.253.254.243.1255384358.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <14195.99.253.254.243.1255384358.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20091013015156.GA11186@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 05:52:38PM -0400, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2009/10/12/the_sidekick_data_disaster/ Whoever came up with that idea should get a raise! --William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 02:31:42 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 22:31:42 -0400 Subject: OT: writing a book, creating a community, etc.... In-Reply-To: <4AD38983.3040906-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD38983.3040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Well, > > I just came across this blog and found out you really don't make much money > writing a tech book? It seems some of the authors are really smart, some > cover a vast amount of material, others may go into a subject a bit deeper. > Yet you get pimped by the publisher at the end. Publishing is a mighty mature industry (it began in 1439, after all!), so you can expect it to be fairly well understood, and profits fairly much fully extracted. > These days my mind is all over the map trying to be an entrepreneur. So I am > playing with several ideas. Part of entrepreneurship is to find business opportunities that are somehow *new*. Selling books is "so 1439" :-). There may be new things to do about publishing, but to be sure, authorship tends NOT to be ultra-profitable, except for a few superstars. Magnum P.I. had, as part of its premise, that Magnum was the on-site security for the eponymous "Robin Masters," who was apparently such a successful author that he could afford to have a mansion on Hawaii, complete with Ferrari sports car for use by the security guard, that said author never got around to visiting. In real life, authors tend NOT to make millions of dollars, and writing isn't a notable "entrepreneurial opportunity." > I started to write my own cheat sheet while learning Ruby, it's now grown > and become to be known as 'RubyQuickNotes'. Being a programmer, I kept to > small notes about language syntax and usage (mostly for me), it's not long > winded with fluff (yet) and still some areas are not complete and I am > already up to 76 page with no page breaks, picture, or diagrams. > > I also gave up on LYX and Latex, it (Lyx) is buggy and annoying as hell, you > still ended up fight Lyx trying to get things to layout, I don't care too > much for their mantra. The few times, I would have an error when trying to > view, and had to undo the last few edits to figure out where the dam stupid > error was coming from. I got paranoid with my writing as it started to get > long that I would type, save and try to view. It was not the most effective > way to work. Trying to add sample code was annoying, never mind trying to > add picture with layout, I didn't even bother. If your process is all about layout, then you need to write with a tool that focuses on that. The thing I *like* about Lyx is that it allows me to IGNORE layout considerations, to a great degree. When *writing*, that's usually the case. If the word's the thing (analagous to "the play's the thing), then layout is mostly an extraneous detail. For most writers over the last 500 years, that was indeed so. Pages covered with nothing more than words, whether hand-written or typewritten would be transformed by printers into type, and there was NO need for the drafts to have remotely analagous layout to the final version. It's only in probably the last 15 years that anyone had an expectation of working with documents in something notably similar to the to-be-typeset form. > I know I was headed down the wrong path to hell with Lyx so I bailed and > transferred the tech notes to using OpenOffice. It's like night and day! I > am a MS Word kind of guy and this does everything Lyx can do but easier and > without the stupid view build error or learning Latex code that stop you > cold at odd times. The version of Lyx I have (latest on Kubuntu) ?could not > export to text, my code sample was missing. I had to learn Latex to insert > code section by hand, was a pain in the neck, and in the end the sample code > output was lost. I suspect that what you *actually* need is something else still; the traditional good professional "layout-sensitive" tools were things like QuarkXPress, Framemaker, Ventura Publisher, but they're pretty pricey, and Microsoft has certainly taken over the mindshare in the "prole market," with OpenOffice.org slavishly following down their garden path. > My real reason to learn Ruby and Rails is to be able to slap up a online > merchandising website, starting off selling custom designed printed (geek) > tee shirts, it's more for the experience and learning to create a powerful > community. FYI: the online tee shirt thing, looked into it, its been done > (working model) to show you can make money, visited local print shop and one > owner told me there was money to be made, he started off like I did printing > a few tees. There is one site online that is selling over 1 million tee a > year, it was started up by 2 web developers who fumbled their way to > success, and they don't design the tee, the community does, they just pick, > print and make money. That didn't happen over night unfortunately, but it's > possible for anyone, not rocket science here. > > I've been told most successful entrepreneurs failed at their first few ideas > before they got it right, so the tee shirt thing is not my ultimate goal, > but I am not starting it up to fail either. If I succeed cool, it will > become my cash cow for my other ideas, if not I will take everything from it > and the experience and try again with something different. Think of > criagslist, it's built a community and it's something anyone with some > programing skills can reproduce with little starting cost, it provided a > good live for its creator/owner and a few of his employees. I wonder what's involved there that hasn't already been done by one of: a) CafePress b) lulu c) ThinkGeek But whatever floats your boat... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach - "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/marie_von_ebnereschenbac.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 03:08:57 2009 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: writing a book, creating a community, etc.... In-Reply-To: References: <4AD38983.3040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <21066.99.253.254.243.1255403337.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > In real life, authors tend NOT to make millions of dollars, and > writing isn't a notable "entrepreneurial opportunity." Textbook writing can be *very* profitable. I have no direct experience of this myself, alas, but know of three other people who have done well. One local example, when asked about revenue from the text, said 'Well, it paid for the house in High Park'. That said, a textbook has to fit very specific requirements so one has to work very closely with a publisher. I suspect one's preference for writing tools is closely related to one's preference for an editor, a matter which may be idiosyncratic and personal. I've completed one engineering text (Design of Light Aircraft) and I'm working on a second (Analog Electronic Circuit Design). In both cases, the books have many, many equations and diagrams. I'm doing both using Latex. Latex is essentially a programming language, so I don't recommend it to non-programmers. But if you understand notions like 'include files', and 'binary search for errors', it's not difficult to use and the results (in my opinion) are excellent. The final output can easily be converted to pdf format. That is my preferred route since the quality is excellent and the document can be printed or downloaded and read on the web. It may not scale well to non-traditional video displays. It is claimed that Latex output can be converted to html, and there are two different processors available. I have no direct experience of either. I use Open Office for things like our datasheets, letters and other short documents. I find it quite good for those applications, but I wouldn't attempt to use it on a technical book project. My 2 cents worth.... Peter -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 04:29:19 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:29:19 -0400 Subject: [Bulk]OT: writing a book, creating a community, etc.... In-Reply-To: <4AD3D2F9.9010603-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD38983.3040906@gmail.com> <4AD3D2F9.9010603@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4AD4021F.3060708@gmail.com> Yanni Chiu wrote: > Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> If anyone on here is trying to get something going or knows of a good >> network site or just wants to talk, I would not mind meeting up from >> time to time for beers and motivating/stimulating talks with each >> other liked minded geeks, or starting up a social group, etc. > > I think you're looking for the barcamp community. Try some searches with > terms like: > - barcamp toronto > - democamp toronto > - startupcamp > - coworking > > Good luck on your endeavors. > Hi Yanni, this sounds like something I may enjoy. Thanks for the site and the good luck! -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 06:37:09 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Google study of DRAM errors Message-ID: This Ars Technica gives an interesting summary. It seems that DRAM errors aren't distributed quite the way one might expect http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2009/10/dram-study-turns-assumptions-about-errors-upside-down.ars The actual paper is here: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf The lead author was at the U of T (as well as Google). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 06:39:10 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Comcast traffic shaping looks OK Message-ID: http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/09/comcast-loses-p2p-religion-goes-agnostic-on-throttling.ars This is what I've repeatedly advocated: don't shape based on protocol, shaped based on the customer's volume. I like this in theory but I don't know what it feels like in practice. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 09:18:30 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:18:30 +0400 Subject: OT: writing a book, creating a community, etc.... In-Reply-To: <4AD38983.3040906-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD38983.3040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD445E6.9070803@gmail.com> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > > I also gave up on LYX and Latex, it (Lyx) is buggy and annoying as > hell, you still ended up fight Lyx trying to get things to layout, I > don't care too much for their mantra. The few times, I would have an > error when trying to view, and had to undo the last few edits to > figure out where the dam stupid error was coming from. I got paranoid > with my writing as it started to get long that I would type, save and > try to view. It was not the most effective way to work. Trying to add > sample code was annoying, never mind trying to add picture with > layout, I didn't even bother. > I did try LyX in the past, a few times, and wasn't happy either. However, my approach to the problem was different (like with HTML): learn LaTeX rather, well, and do not bother about GUI interface to either of them (HTML or LaTeX). I am probably not a super duper specialist on LaTeX (in case of HTML - who knows) but I do now enjoy using it like a hell. And yes, I am used now to write my own notes in LaTeX, non stop. What a saving of time! Later on when I want to prepare an article for publication, I have a lot of the work done already. BTW, there is TeXmacs as a possible GUI to LaTeX. I have little experience with it so will not comment more but it seems worth of attention and investigation. It is good in particular in computation environment, because it is designed to integrate with several open source advanced algebraic packages. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 14:05:16 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:05:16 -0400 Subject: TLUG Meeting tonight Message-ID: <4AD4891C.7060202@moores.ca> Hi all, I've never been to a TLUG meeting. I notice the website says tonight's is your AGM, so I'm not sure if this is the most appropriate one for a newbie. My experience with AGMs is that there is a lot of bureaucracy and little chance to see what a normal meeting is like or to get to meet new people. I'd like to come, but I'll be coming all the way from Aurora, so I'd like my first meeting to be worth the effort. Please let me know. cheers, darryl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 14:14:23 2009 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:14:23 -0400 Subject: TLUG Meeting tonight In-Reply-To: <4AD4891C.7060202-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD4891C.7060202@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4AD48B3F.30900@utoronto.ca> Darryl Moore wrote: > Hi all, I've never been to a TLUG meeting. I notice the website says > tonight's is your AGM, so I'm not sure if this is the most appropriate > one for a newbie. My experience with AGMs is that there is a lot of > bureaucracy and little chance to see what a normal meeting is like or to > get to meet new people. > > I'd like to come, but I'll be coming all the way from Aurora, so I'd > like my first meeting to be worth the effort. Looks like the Meeting stuff didn't make it to the main TLUG list. I'll post it. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 14:15:34 2009 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:15:34 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: TLUG Meeting Tue Oct 13] Message-ID: <4AD48B86.9050307@utoronto.ca> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: TLUG Meeting Tue Oct 13 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 14:20:19 -0400 From: Drew Sullivan Reply-To: drew-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org To: tlug-announce-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Date: Tuesday October 13, 2009 Time: 7:30 pm Annual general meeting and short topics. Speakers Tentative short topic speaker list: Colin McGregor Describing the GTALUG Election David Patrick "My emerging all-CLI task/document/accounting application use" Colin McGregor Damn Vulnerable Linux Seneca Cunningham "Media metadata handling with exiftool" Christopher Browne A Quick Overview of Screen Myles Braithwaithe So you want a personal web site? Description Tonight will be the annual general meeting and a series of short (15 - 20 minute) talks on several different topics. Location TBA, but will likely be: Room GB248, Galbraith Building, University of Toronto 35 St George St Toronto, Ontario M5S 3G8 University of Toronto Schedule 6:00 PM - There will be an informal get together of Linux fans at the Pho Hung restaurant 350 Spadina Ave. to talk about Linux related topics over Vietnamese style food. 7:30 PM - Meeting and presentation. Late evening - After the presentation a large group of Linux fans will move to a nearby pub for further informal socializing. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 16:21:46 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:21:46 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 08:00:57PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote: > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 19:45, Dave Cramer wrote: > > Unfortunately it's a piece of crap. > > > > Well, they need to start somewhere, when any software starts it's a > piece of crap, give it time. No, if you design it (rather than evolve it) then it should be not a piece of crap at the start. Recovering a piece of crap into a working system hardly ever happens. You just end up with a bloated useless bigger piece of crap. Besides anything written in java can't be rescued without a rewrite in a useful efficient language. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 16:23:30 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:23:30 -0400 Subject: OT: writing a book, creating a community, etc.... In-Reply-To: <4AD445E6.9070803-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD38983.3040906@gmail.com> <4AD445E6.9070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 5:18 AM, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> >> I also gave up on LYX and Latex, it (Lyx) is buggy and annoying as hell, >> you still ended up fight Lyx trying to get things to layout, I don't care >> too much for their mantra. The few times, I would have an error when trying >> to view, and had to undo the last few edits to figure out where the dam >> stupid error was coming from. I got paranoid with my writing as it started >> to get long that I would type, save and try to view. It was not the most >> effective way to work. Trying to add sample code was annoying, never mind >> trying to add picture with layout, I didn't even bother. >> > I did try LyX in the past, a few times, and wasn't happy either. However, my > approach to the problem was different (like with HTML): > learn LaTeX rather, well, and do not bother about GUI interface to either of > them (HTML or LaTeX). I am probably not a super duper specialist on LaTeX > (in case of HTML - who knows) but I do now enjoy using it like a hell. And > yes, I am used now to write my own notes in LaTeX, non stop. What a saving > of time! Later on when I want to prepare an article for publication, I have > a lot of the work done already. > > BTW, there is TeXmacs as a possible GUI to LaTeX. I have little experience > with it so will not comment more but it seems worth of attention and > investigation. It is good in particular in computation environment, because > it is designed to integrate with several open source advanced algebraic > packages. > Hi ZB, thanks for pointing out Texmacs, I will take a look at it. > zb. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://devmentor.org Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 17:24:04 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <20091013162146.GY26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | No, if you design it (rather than evolve it) then it should be not a | piece of crap at the start. Recovering a piece of crap into a working | system hardly ever happens. You just end up with a bloated useless | bigger piece of crap. That is mostly true. At least I want to believe it. There are cases where communities have put in enough work to get useful results out of crap. It offends my sence of what is right and proper, but it does happen. The amount of effort put into DOS / Win 3.x / Win 9x / Win NT... was disproportionate to the results, but results there were. Also: sometimes an artifact like that system can nucleate a community and the community can go on to do good things. Both these quibbles are long shots and don't actually disagree with you. | Besides anything written in java can't be rescued without a rewrite in | a useful efficient language. Are you sure? That seems like a strong claim. Not that I'm a Java fan -- I've been resisting learning it since slightly before it was released to the world. Do you feel the same way about C#? Here's a link to an article from yesterday's Globe and Mail. I don't think that a realistic analysis is possible for a reporter. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/oscar-shows-electronic-health-system-doable/article1320727/ (I don't know when that link will cease to work.) It does touch on the issue of open source. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 17:29:12 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:29:12 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <20091013162146.GY26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 08:00:57PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 19:45, Dave Cramer > wrote: > > > Unfortunately it's a piece of crap. > > > > > > > Well, they need to start somewhere, when any software starts it's a > > piece of crap, give it time. > > No, if you design it (rather than evolve it) then it should be not a > piece of crap at the start. Recovering a piece of crap into a working > system hardly ever happens. You just end up with a bloated useless > bigger piece of crap. > > This is essentially what happened, and where it is. > Besides anything written in java can't be rescued without a rewrite in > a useful efficient language. > This is not the problem, and nor is java inefficient, look at the performance comparison between C++, or even C and java. You will be amazed. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 17:59:33 2009 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:59:33 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I am a developer at McMaster for the EMR OSCAR. I'm not sure where the negativity is coming from, but as to be expected, I disagree. McMaster uses OSCAR at all 3 of their clinics with well over 30 000 patients' records. I personally provide support for another 7 clinics which use OSCAR. We have a strong user base in BC as well as McGill University in Quebec.. We are just now putting together more accurate numbers of who is using OSCAR. With ubuntu, installing OSCAR for a technically inclined person is painless. Check out http://indivica.com/?page_id=40 for installation instructions. We also have documentation on how to use the program on http://www.oscarcanada.org . I have had great satisfaction seeing OSCAR used in many settings; from homeless shelters to teaching clinics, to family physician practices. It runs on minimal hardware with very good performance. Check it out. It's a great alternative to a billion dollar non solution. Cheers, Randy -- Oscar Developer McMaster University 175 Longwood Road South, Suite 201A Hamilton ON L8P 0A1 905 525 9140 x27735 On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Dave Cramer wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Lennart Sorensen < > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 08:00:57PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote: >> > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 19:45, Dave Cramer >> wrote: >> > > Unfortunately it's a piece of crap. >> > > >> > >> > Well, they need to start somewhere, when any software starts it's a >> > piece of crap, give it time. >> >> No, if you design it (rather than evolve it) then it should be not a >> piece of crap at the start. Recovering a piece of crap into a working >> system hardly ever happens. You just end up with a bloated useless >> bigger piece of crap. >> >> This is essentially what happened, and where it is. > >> Besides anything written in java can't be rescued without a rewrite in >> a useful efficient language. >> > > This is not the problem, and nor is java inefficient, look at the > performance comparison between C++, or even C and java. You will be amazed. > >> >> -- >> Len Sorensen >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 18:07:28 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:07:28 -0400 Subject: Screen Blanking in X In-Reply-To: <20090730194022.GA30259-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090729165948.GA17383@yam.witteman.ca> <5C7DAD11-9488-4C0D-B648-80122D305224@gmail.com> <20090730194022.GA30259@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20091013180728.GA8947@yam.witteman.ca> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 03:40:22PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: >>>> I am trying to turn off the powersaving features of X, specifically >>>> screen blanking, display powerdown etc. >>>> >>>> I do this because I turn off my monitor when I am not in front of it, >>>> but when I turn it back on, I want it to come right back. ?Also, when I >>>> am watching something I don't want the screen to blank while I'm in the >>>> middle. >>>> >>>> I started here: >>>> >>>> http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/x-screen-blanking.html >>>> >>>> and updated my xorg.conf with this: >>>> >>>> ?Option ? ? ?"BlankTime" "0" >>>> ?Option ? ? ?"Standby" "0" >>>> ?Option ? ? ?"Suspend" "0" >>>> ?Option ? ? ?"OffTime" "0" >>>> >I use a plain window manager >(Openbox) and there aren't any settings. It looks like Lennart was on >the right track by pointing out that I have 'Option "DPMS"' in my >xorg.conf - once I set that to 'Option "DPMS" "FALSE"' and restart X, I >seem to be in the clear. There were still times when my screen would go blank, even after the machinations above. The final solution was to add these lines to my .xinitrc: setterm -blank 0 -powersave off -powerdown 0 xset s off I think that the first actually stops the screen from blanking in the console, but whatever the reason, this works. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 18:13:25 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:13:25 -0400 Subject: Can anyone recommend a webcam? In-Reply-To: <1089a0320909081242s28732491t3c3152701289e393-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090908161157.GA12558@yam.witteman.ca> <20090908161812.GY23701@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1089a0320909081242s28732491t3c3152701289e393@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091013181325.GB8947@yam.witteman.ca> On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 04:42:23PM -0300, Marcelo Cavalcante wrote: >Hi Willian, > >I don't think you should be worried about this. Almost 100% os the webcams >will work on Linux. The new kernel versions are suporting almost 100% of the >cams. > >If you use kernel >=2.6.29, u probably won't have problems to make it work. To follow up, I realized that my wife's webcam is not in use when she is away, so I could use that. It is a UVC webcam, and it does "just work". It is a Logitech Quickcam 9000 Pro. Be warned though, that Logitech makes most of the consumer-grade webcams non-UVC compliant(!). -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 18:32:08 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:32:08 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910131132sf2b04dcm456dbf9a89d0ec20@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > Hi, > > I am a developer at McMaster for the EMR OSCAR. I'm not sure where the > negativity is coming from, but as to be expected, I disagree. McMaster uses > OSCAR at all 3 of their clinics with well over 30 000 patients' records. I > personally provide support for another 7 clinics which use OSCAR. We have a > strong user base in BC as well as McGill University in Quebec.. We are just > now putting together more accurate numbers of who is using OSCAR. > > With ubuntu, installing OSCAR for a technically inclined person is > painless. Check out http://indivica.com/?page_id=40 for installation > instructions. We also have documentation on how to use the program on > http://www.oscarcanada.org . > > I have had great satisfaction seeing OSCAR used in many settings; from > homeless shelters to teaching clinics, to family physician practices. It > runs on minimal hardware with very good performance. Check it out. It's a > great alternative to a billion dollar non solution. > > So how many different java web technologies are in there ? Last time I checked there was straight JSP, struts, gwt, assorted javascript libraries. It is using mysql. Is it using any kind of database OR mapping, or just SQL all over the place ? Is there any relational integrity ? Are you also aware there are people distributing extensions of this without all of the source ? Dave >>> >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 18:35:18 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:35:18 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091013183518.GZ26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 01:24:04PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Lennart Sorensen > > | No, if you design it (rather than evolve it) then it should be not a > | piece of crap at the start. Recovering a piece of crap into a working > | system hardly ever happens. You just end up with a bloated useless > | bigger piece of crap. > > That is mostly true. At least I want to believe it. > > There are cases where communities have put in enough work to get > useful results out of crap. It offends my sence of what is right and > proper, but it does happen. > > The amount of effort put into DOS / Win 3.x / Win 9x / Win NT... was > disproportionate to the results, but results there were. > > Also: sometimes an artifact like that system can nucleate a community > and the community can go on to do good things. > > Both these quibbles are long shots and don't actually disagree with > you. > > | Besides anything written in java can't be rescued without a rewrite in > | a useful efficient language. > > Are you sure? That seems like a strong claim. Not that I'm a Java > fan -- I've been resisting learning it since slightly before it was > released to the world. > > Do you feel the same way about C#? C# looks like a better language, but I have never used it or even had to deal with it. At least it seems that .net applications actually work when installed. Java applications often don't work, are a nightmare to get running, figuring out which java version they require, etc. Complete mess. That that's without having to actually try writing java code. I hate object oriented programming in most cases. Making everything a class is just stupid and not productive and certainly doesn't make for readable or maintainable code. I agree with Dijkstra on that. I found some nice (funny) quotes on java (and C++ and perl and such) here: http://www.sysprog.net/?tag=java-quotes > Here's a link to an article from yesterday's Globe and Mail. I don't > think that a realistic analysis is possible for a reporter. > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/oscar-shows-electronic-health-system-doable/article1320727/ > (I don't know when that link will cease to work.) > It does touch on the issue of open source. Well given that the london stock exchange (and apparently a bunch of other stock exchanges) are willing to run on a linux based system (although I doubt they intend to open source the actual application code), and believe that having control over the source and development of their complete system is a benefit, I don't think open source is looking so bad. Having something that works and can be made to do what is needed is actually better than having someone to blame when it doesn't work. Strange how many people just worry about having someone to blame for failures. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 18:37:33 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:37:33 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 01:29:12PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > This is not the problem, and nor is java inefficient, look at the > performance comparison between C++, or even C and java. You will be amazed. Yes C is much easier to write efficient code in. C++ can (with a good compiler if you can find one) be made to do efficient code as long as you avoid most of its stupid features (which makes it mostly C anyhow). Java is just hopeless. I suspect the main problem with java's performance is that there are an awful lot of bad java programmers. It seems to attract them (or perhaps create them). A good programmer could do a much better job given a better language. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 18:40:41 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:40:41 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910131132sf2b04dcm456dbf9a89d0ec20-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131132sf2b04dcm456dbf9a89d0ec20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Dave Cramer wrote: > So how many different java web technologies are in there ? Last time I > checked there was straight JSP, struts, gwt, assorted javascript libraries. > It is using mysql. Is it using any kind of database OR mapping, or just SQL > all over the place ? Is there any relational integrity ? I see in the source code that there are "init scripts" for Oracle and PostgreSQL as well... This may bode either well or ill... The "ill" part is that when you build to be "totally generic," then you have to eschew any features that aren't available everywhere, which, in this case, tends to rule out relational integrity (e.g. - foreign keys) or having constraint validation. I did notice the "sin" of tables with scores of columns. The alternative, alas, is usually the EAV sin, which I think I'd *less* rather see... > Are you also aware there are people distributing extensions of this without > all of the source ? What could possibly go wrong with that??? ;-) -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Charles de Gaulle - "The better I get to know men, the more I find myself loving dogs." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/c/charles_de_gaulle.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 18:45:52 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:45:52 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 01:59:33PM -0400, Randy Jonasz wrote: > I am a developer at McMaster for the EMR OSCAR. I'm not sure where the > negativity is coming from, but as to be expected, I disagree. McMaster uses > OSCAR at all 3 of their clinics with well over 30 000 patients' records. I > personally provide support for another 7 clinics which use OSCAR. We have a > strong user base in BC as well as McGill University in Quebec.. We are just > now putting together more accurate numbers of who is using OSCAR. > > With ubuntu, installing OSCAR for a technically inclined person is > painless. Check out http://indivica.com/?page_id=40 for installation > instructions. We also have documentation on how to use the program on > http://www.oscarcanada.org . > > I have had great satisfaction seeing OSCAR used in many settings; from > homeless shelters to teaching clinics, to family physician practices. It > runs on minimal hardware with very good performance. Check it out. It's a > great alternative to a billion dollar non solution. Good grief... mysql for one half of the system, postgres for the other half, java here, python there. And pages and pages of instructions to set it up. If it's that easy why didn't someone just make a ubuntu package for it? Looks like 3/4 of it could be scripted in the .postinst anyhow. And cvs checkouts? Don't they have actual releases? Nevermind how bad cvs is at tracking changes. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 18:48:29 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:48:29 -0400 Subject: Can anyone recommend a webcam? In-Reply-To: <20091013181325.GB8947-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090908161157.GA12558@yam.witteman.ca> <20090908161812.GY23701@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1089a0320909081242s28732491t3c3152701289e393@mail.gmail.com> <20091013181325.GB8947@yam.witteman.ca> Message-ID: <20091013184829.GC26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 02:13:25PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 04:42:23PM -0300, Marcelo Cavalcante wrote: > >Hi Willian, > > > >I don't think you should be worried about this. Almost 100% os the webcams > >will work on Linux. The new kernel versions are suporting almost 100% of the > >cams. > > > >If you use kernel >=2.6.29, u probably won't have problems to make it work. > > To follow up, I realized that my wife's webcam is not in use when she is > away, so I could use that. It is a UVC webcam, and it does "just work". > It is a Logitech Quickcam 9000 Pro. Be warned though, that Logitech > makes most of the consumer-grade webcams non-UVC compliant(!). Not anymore if they want a windows compatible logo. Vista and Windows 7 logo requires webcams to be UVC. And logitech invented UVC as far as I recall. They have on the other hand had a lot of buggy firmware that made their UVC webcams not work well in the past. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 18:49:32 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:49:32 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131132sf2b04dcm456dbf9a89d0ec20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910131149s19d2dc86gd894e930b2b5a95c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Dave Cramer > wrote: > > So how many different java web technologies are in there ? Last time I > > checked there was straight JSP, struts, gwt, assorted javascript > libraries. > > It is using mysql. Is it using any kind of database OR mapping, or just > SQL > > all over the place ? Is there any relational integrity ? > > I see in the source code that there are "init scripts" for Oracle and > PostgreSQL as well... This may bode either well or ill... > > I was never able to get it all running on pg. > The "ill" part is that when you build to be "totally generic," then > you have to eschew any features that aren't available everywhere, > which, in this case, tends to rule out relational integrity (e.g. - > foreign keys) or having constraint validation. > > Actually hibernate does pretty solid job of this, but of course there is partial hibernate support in this and then there is SQL spread liberally throughout the views, etc. Also it's a very big (herculean) stretch to compare this to the billion dollar non-solution which was as I understand it to provide e-records for everything. This is just a small office scheduling, billing and encounter(dr jargon for visit) tracking solution. Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 19:14:48 2009 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:14:48 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910131132sf2b04dcm456dbf9a89d0ec20-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131132sf2b04dcm456dbf9a89d0ec20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Dave Cramer wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am a developer at McMaster for the EMR OSCAR. I'm not sure where the >> negativity is coming from, but as to be expected, I disagree. McMaster uses >> OSCAR at all 3 of their clinics with well over 30 000 patients' records. I >> personally provide support for another 7 clinics which use OSCAR. We have a >> strong user base in BC as well as McGill University in Quebec.. We are just >> now putting together more accurate numbers of who is using OSCAR. >> >> With ubuntu, installing OSCAR for a technically inclined person is >> painless. Check out http://indivica.com/?page_id=40 for installation >> instructions. We also have documentation on how to use the program on >> http://www.oscarcanada.org . >> >> I have had great satisfaction seeing OSCAR used in many settings; from >> homeless shelters to teaching clinics, to family physician practices. It >> runs on minimal hardware with very good performance. Check it out. It's a >> great alternative to a billion dollar non solution. >> >> > So how many different java web technologies are in there ? Last time I > checked there was straight JSP, struts, gwt, assorted javascript libraries. > It is using mysql. Is it using any kind of database OR mapping, or just SQL > all over the place ? Is there any relational integrity ? > I've worked with Spring, Hibernate, JPA, JSP, and Struts in OSCAR. The SQL that was used in JDBC calls is being centralized in a Spring bean. That job is a work in progress, but it's coming. We also use the scriptaculous/prototype javascript library and a calendar javascript library. I don't find this a negative. After all what is wrong with using 3rd party libraries and frameworks? We don't want to reinvent the wheel all the time. > > Are you also aware there are people distributing extensions of this without > all of the source ? > Actually, no I was not. Do you know who is doing this? Cheers, Randy > > Dave > > > >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > -- Oscar Developer McMaster University 175 Longwood Road South, Suite 201A Hamilton ON L8P 0A1 905 525 9140 x27735 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 19:21:45 2009 From: rjonasz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Randy Jonasz) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:21:45 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <20091013184552.GB26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 01:59:33PM -0400, Randy Jonasz wrote: > > I am a developer at McMaster for the EMR OSCAR. I'm not sure where the > > negativity is coming from, but as to be expected, I disagree. McMaster > uses > > OSCAR at all 3 of their clinics with well over 30 000 patients' records. > I > > personally provide support for another 7 clinics which use OSCAR. We > have a > > strong user base in BC as well as McGill University in Quebec.. We are > just > > now putting together more accurate numbers of who is using OSCAR. > > > > With ubuntu, installing OSCAR for a technically inclined person is > > painless. Check out http://indivica.com/?page_id=40 for installation > > instructions. We also have documentation on how to use the program on > > http://www.oscarcanada.org . > > > > I have had great satisfaction seeing OSCAR used in many settings; from > > homeless shelters to teaching clinics, to family physician practices. It > > runs on minimal hardware with very good performance. Check it out. It's > a > > great alternative to a billion dollar non solution. > > Good grief... mysql for one half of the system, postgres for the other > half, java here, python there. And pages and pages of instructions > to set it up. If it's that easy why didn't someone just make a ubuntu > package for it? Looks like 3/4 of it could be scripted in the .postinst > anyhow. And cvs checkouts? Don't they have actual releases? Nevermind > how bad cvs is at tracking changes. > It's true the install could be simplified. Currently we try to make it so an interested physician can set it up herself. But the bottom line is to hire a tech to do it it if you don't know how. The python is being phased out as it was used only to manage Health Canada's drug database dump. This was also being stored in postgreSQL which I believe a co-worker was changing to use MySQL. We use sourceforge as our code repository so yes we have used cvs successfully for years. Cheers, Randy > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Oscar Developer McMaster University 175 Longwood Road South, Suite 201A Hamilton ON L8P 0A1 905 525 9140 x27735 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 19:58:02 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:58:02 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> > The python is being phased out as it was used only to manage Health > Canada's drug database dump. This was also being stored in postgreSQL which > I believe a co-worker was changing to use MySQL. > > Hmmm.... the notion that my health records are stored in MySQL is reason for me to find another doctor. Too bad your co-worker didn't move the MySQL to PostgreSQL > We use sourceforge as our code repository so yes we have used cvs > successfully for years. > > wonder why the rest of the world is ditching cvs ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 19:58:53 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:58:53 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131132sf2b04dcm456dbf9a89d0ec20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910131258v63385498q6bfe20f2f6f692e2@mail.gmail.com> > Are you also aware there are people distributing extensions of this without >> all of the source ? >> > > Actually, no I was not. Do you know who is doing this? > Oscarservice -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 20:19:19 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:19:19 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091013201919.GD26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 03:58:02PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > Hmmm.... the notion that my health records are stored in MySQL is reason > for me to find another doctor. Too bad your co-worker didn't move the MySQL > to PostgreSQL Certainly a much better database. Would have been the better direction to move, although I suspect the postgres part was small and clean and easy to move while the mysql part is likely big and complicated and not very portable to another database. That is often the case at least. > > We use sourceforge as our code repository so yes we have used cvs > > successfully for years. > > > wonder why the rest of the world is ditching cvs ? Ehm, could it be because tracking file changes is far less useful than tracking changes to a set of files together than implement one change? Makes for much more useful patches that can actually be moved between branches and used. Unlike cvs which is just awful. Only thing worse than using cvs would be to use just the rcs that cvs runs on top of. I also find sourceforge to be an awful site to deal with. What a horrible interface. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 20:22:23 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Dave Cramer | > The python is being phased out as it was used only to manage Health | > Canada's drug database dump. This was also being stored in postgreSQL which | > I believe a co-worker was changing to use MySQL. | > | > | Hmmm.... the notion that my health records are stored in MySQL is reason | for me to find another doctor. Too bad your co-worker didn't move the MySQL | to PostgreSQL Just to make this clear: PostgreSQL is considered much better technology than MySQL. I'm not a DB person so I don't know enough to explain this well. On the other hand, several people who do know enough have independently told me this. For business-critical work like OSCAR, using MySQL is probably a serious mistake. Here's a comparison from the PostgreSQL wiki (hence it might be biased): http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Why_PostgreSQL_Instead_of_MySQL_2009 If you find it wrong, you can fix it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 22:02:24 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:02:24 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Dave Cramer > > | > The python is being phased out as it was used only to manage Health > | > Canada's drug database dump. This was also being stored in postgreSQL which > | > I believe a co-worker was changing to use MySQL. > | > > | > > | Hmmm.... the notion that my health records are stored in MySQL is reason > | for me to find another doctor. Too bad your co-worker didn't move the MySQL > | to PostgreSQL > > Just to make this clear: PostgreSQL is considered much better > technology than MySQL. Depends who you ask. > I'm not a DB person so I don't know enough to explain this well. On > the other hand, several people who do know enough have independently > told me this. See above. > For business-critical work like OSCAR, using MySQL is probably a > serious mistake. If it's good enough for Yahoo! and Wikipedia, it's probably good enough for the rest of us. Sure there may be bad implementations of it around (no comment on oscar, haven't looked), but I'm sure if postgresql had the same installation base, some people would scream bloody murder about it too. > Here's a comparison from the PostgreSQL wiki (hence it might be > biased): > http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Why_PostgreSQL_Instead_of_MySQL_2009 > If you find it wrong, you can fix it. I'm biased towards postgresql as well (just because I like it is all), but honestly, mysql powers some really large sites just like postgresql, and if setup properly it is easily secured and maintainable. My $0.02, ymmv. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 22:20:05 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:20:05 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <4AD4F8F0.9050907-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <491f66a50910131520k588fcbbfm277c8a6a011226ba@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > >> | From: Dave Cramer >> >> | > The python is being phased out as it was used only to manage Health >> | > Canada's drug database dump. This was also being stored in postgreSQL >> which >> | > I believe a co-worker was changing to use MySQL. >> | > >> | > >> | Hmmm.... the notion that my health records are stored in MySQL is >> reason >> | for me to find another doctor. Too bad your co-worker didn't move the >> MySQL >> | to PostgreSQL >> >> Just to make this clear: PostgreSQL is considered much better >> technology than MySQL. >> > > Depends who you ask. Well if you can do insert into foo (varchar(8) column) > values ( "charlargerthan8") and it accepts it I consider this a major flaw. > What did it just store ? > > > I'm not a DB person so I don't know enough to explain this well. On >> the other hand, several people who do know enough have independently >> told me this. >> > > See above. > > For business-critical work like OSCAR, using MySQL is probably a >> serious mistake. >> > > If it's good enough for Yahoo! and Wikipedia, it's probably good enough for > the rest of us. Sure there may be bad implementations of it around (no > comment on oscar, haven't looked), but I'm sure if postgresql had the same > installation base, some people would scream bloody murder about it too. Well if I lose data on Wikipedia, it's not the end of the world, nor is Yahoo. My health records are a different story. Just for kicks what is Yahoo using it for since I know they are using a derivation of postgresql for other things. > > > Here's a comparison from the PostgreSQL wiki (hence it might be >> biased): >> http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Why_PostgreSQL_Instead_of_MySQL_2009 >> If you find it wrong, you can fix it. >> > > I'm biased towards postgresql as well (just because I like it is all), but > honestly, mysql powers some really large sites just like postgresql, and if > setup properly it is easily secured and maintainable. > I'm not debating it's security or maintainability, I'm debating it's robustness. I've had customers pull the fibre channel out of a postgresql database server and not lose any data. Are you suggesting that this is remotely possible with MySQL ? > > My $0.02, ymmv. > > Jamon > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 22:41:32 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:41:32 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <4AD4F8F0.9050907-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20091013224132.GA5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 06:02:24PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> | From: Dave Cramer >> >> | > The python is being phased out as it was used only to manage Health >> | > Canada's drug database dump. This was also being stored in postgreSQL which >> | > I believe a co-worker was changing to use MySQL. >> | > >> | > >> | Hmmm.... the notion that my health records are stored in MySQL is reason >> | for me to find another doctor. Too bad your co-worker didn't move the MySQL >> | to PostgreSQL >> >> Just to make this clear: PostgreSQL is considered much better >> technology than MySQL. > > Depends who you ask. > >> I'm not a DB person so I don't know enough to explain this well. On >> the other hand, several people who do know enough have independently >> told me this. > > See above. > >> For business-critical work like OSCAR, using MySQL is probably a >> serious mistake. > > If it's good enough for Yahoo! and Wikipedia, it's probably good enough > for the rest of us. Sure there may be bad implementations of it around > (no comment on oscar, haven't looked), but I'm sure if postgresql had > the same installation base, some people would scream bloody murder about > it too. > >> Here's a comparison from the PostgreSQL wiki (hence it might be >> biased): >> http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Why_PostgreSQL_Instead_of_MySQL_2009 >> If you find it wrong, you can fix it. > > I'm biased towards postgresql as well (just because I like it is all), > but honestly, mysql powers some really large sites just like postgresql, > and if setup properly it is easily secured and maintainable. I bet those sites have systems setup to ensure they never hit any of the bad stuff. They are also mostly read and not much write sites. They likely also have lots of reduncancy and backups so that a database corruption (if they are crazy enough to use myISAM) is unlikely to cause any issues. I also think the section size limit on wikipedia is a mysql limitation. I am surprised that there are now 5 different development teams doing mysql development. Sounds like that could become quite the mess. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 13 20:13:20 2009 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:13:20 -0400 Subject: Can anyone recommend a webcam? In-Reply-To: <4AA68466.40107-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090908161157.GA12558@yam.witteman.ca> <4AA68466.40107@telly.org> Message-ID: <200910131613.20720.dbmacg@look.ca> On your advice, I got the Dynex 1.3, and it works like a charm, producing a very nice picture. Thank you. I got it at Future Shop for 35 bucks. Duncan On September 8, 2009 12:20:54 pm Evan Leibovitch wrote: > William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > > I am looking for a cheap, simple webcam with a mic for Skype on Debian > > Linux. Can anyone recommend something that will work with minimal (or > > zero) messing around? > > > I've had zero problems with the Dynex webcam sold at both BestBuy and > FutureShop, plug n play under Ubuntu for both the camera and mike. > > http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10098615&catid=20403 > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Duncan MacGregor -- Toronto -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 00:30:47 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:30:47 -0400 Subject: clustering is SO AWESOME In-Reply-To: <4ACFAE1B.7030803-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACFAE1B.7030803@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4AD51BB7.4080106@utoronto.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: > The last couple of weeks I've been messing around with clustering here > at the office. I've been banging my head against the wall trying to get > it working (busted CentOS RPMs aside...). > > Anyway, I've got it working now and oh wow! When it works, it is a thing > of beauty. If I had portable enough hardware I would love to give a talk > on it. > > For example; > > I've got a simple 2-node cluster running LVM on DRBD. This acts as a > base for a set of Xen VMs. I use on-board IPMI as my fence devices and > CentOS/Red Hat Cluster suite for the magic. > > I've been testing failure and recovery. Just now I decided to bite the > bullet and kill both nodes (simulated power event). This was were things > kept falling apart for me up until now. This time though, with the bugs > squashed, it recovered fine. Question, are you using a cluster filesystem on top of your volumes? I'm trying to decide between ocfs2 and gfs2 for a san backend shared between 4 machines. Any suggestions? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 00:39:48 2009 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:39:48 -0400 Subject: ExifTool Tag Names via Seneca's Short Talk Message-ID: <670B3B99-A5AF-40C0-8208-257703177887@mylesbraithwaite.com> http://search.cpan.org/~exiftool/Image-ExifTool-7.89/lib/Image/ExifTool/TagNames.pod Sent from my mobile device. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 00:50:12 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:50:12 -0400 Subject: clustering is SO AWESOME In-Reply-To: <4AD51BB7.4080106-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4ACFAE1B.7030803@alteeve.com> <4AD51BB7.4080106@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4AD52044.5030702@alteeve.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: >> The last couple of weeks I've been messing around with clustering here >> at the office. I've been banging my head against the wall trying to >> get it working (busted CentOS RPMs aside...). >> >> Anyway, I've got it working now and oh wow! When it works, it is a >> thing of beauty. If I had portable enough hardware I would love to >> give a talk on it. >> >> For example; >> >> I've got a simple 2-node cluster running LVM on DRBD. This acts as a >> base for a set of Xen VMs. I use on-board IPMI as my fence devices and >> CentOS/Red Hat Cluster suite for the magic. >> >> I've been testing failure and recovery. Just now I decided to bite the >> bullet and kill both nodes (simulated power event). This was were >> things kept falling apart for me up until now. This time though, with >> the bugs squashed, it recovered fine. > > Question, are you using a cluster filesystem on top of your volumes? I'm > trying to decide between ocfs2 and gfs2 for a san backend shared between > 4 machines. Any suggestions? > > Jamon For my 2-node, I run cluster-aware LVM on top of DRBD. I've been meaning to play with OCFS2 and GFS, but haven't yet. Currently I am working on a home-brew iSCSI/SAN box though, so I may have an opinion in the relatively near future. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 03:49:18 2009 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:49:18 -0400 Subject: C is fastest (was: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System) In-Reply-To: <20091013183733.GA26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 01:29:12PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: >> This is not the problem, and nor is java inefficient, look at the >> performance comparison between C++, or even C and java. You will be >> amazed. > > Yes C is much easier to write efficient code in. C++ can (with a > good compiler if you can find one) be made to do efficient code as > long as you avoid most of its stupid features (which makes it mostly > C anyhow). Java is just hopeless. When I read the original comment, I assumed that "efficient language" meant efficient use of the developer's time. I'm surprised (but I shouldn't be) that people still want to talk about "code written in language A, runs faster than if written in language B). As to runtime efficiency, the Sun Java HotSpotVM technology is derived from the Animorphic VM built for Smalltalk, which was bought by Sun. At runtime, the VM chooses "hot" methods to compile its bytecodes into native machine code, and caches the compiled machine code for subsequent invocations. And, this still works for polymorphic invocations (i.e. the calling code doesn't know the exact class in the hierarchy of the object being invoked). This will execute faster than any C++ compiler that uses vtables. I'll also contend that, except for very short programs, a system written in Smalltalk or Java, running with Animorphic VM ideas, could run faster than a well written C version. There are two reasons. One, once a program gets big enough, you need to do memory mgmt, and the VM's garbage collection would probably do a better job than ad hoc code. Two, the VM optimizations are discovered and applied at runtime, and it will find optimizations that developers could not have imagined, when looking at a small bit of code -- i.e. like what happens when the global optimization switch is used for a C compiler. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 03:57:48 2009 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:57:48 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <4AD4F8F0.9050907-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> For business-critical work like OSCAR, using MySQL is probably a >> serious mistake. > > If it's good enough for Yahoo! and Wikipedia, it's probably good enough > for the rest of us. If Oscar is just a scheduling, billing and visit tracking app, then it's probably not a big deal. If it were to be storing patient history and drug treatment regimen, then I'd be worried that it's MySQL instead of PostgreSQL. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 07:30:17 2009 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 03:30:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Documentation Licensing Message-ID: Hey everyone, Can someone briefly tell if there is any major difference between the GNU FDL and the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 Canada http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/ca/ All I want is that someone can take my documentation and modify it for commercial or non commercial purposes provided the modified work is also licensed under the same license and remains free. Thanks -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 09:46:56 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 05:46:56 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <4AD54C3C.6030006-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910140246j74df4849h56f2696a009d0ba6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Yanni Chiu wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> >>> For business-critical work like OSCAR, using MySQL is probably a >>> serious mistake. >>> >> >> If it's good enough for Yahoo! and Wikipedia, it's probably good enough >> for the rest of us. >> > > If Oscar is just a scheduling, billing and visit tracking app, then it's > probably not a big deal. If it were to be storing patient history and drug > treatment regimen, then I'd be worried that it's MySQL instead of > PostgreSQL. > > encounters are patient history. :( > -- > Yanni > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 13:50:48 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:50:48 -0400 Subject: World of Goo game Message-ID: <20091014135048.GB5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> I just saw today that World of Goo (a nifty little puzzle game) is on sale to celebrate its aniversary, and well they actually have linux versions of it, as .rpm, .deb and .tar.gz. The sale is that you pay whatever you want for it, with whatever you want being from $0.01 up to $20 (the regular price), in US dollars (not that it makes any real difference currently). You can find it at http://www.worldofgoo.com/ if interested. They have a free demo verison too to try out first. The server is rather overloaded at the moment, but once you get through the download is pretty quick. ....many hours pass.... Well it would have been today had I finished and sent the email yesterday. Well it is still on and might be less busy now. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 13:51:58 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:51:58 -0400 Subject: Documentation Licensing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091014135158.GC5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 03:30:17AM -0400, Jason Carson wrote: > Hey everyone, > > Can someone briefly tell if there is any major difference between the GNU > FDL and the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 Canada > > http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html > http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/ca/ > > All I want is that someone can take my documentation and modify it for > commercial or non commercial purposes provided the modified work is also > licensed under the same license and remains free. Well I know Debian seems OK with the GNU FDL as long as it contains no 'invariant' sections. They consider any GFDL with invariant sections to be 'non free'. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 13:55:58 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:55:58 -0400 Subject: C is fastest (was: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System) In-Reply-To: <4AD54A3E.40301-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:49:18PM -0400, Yanni Chiu wrote: > When I read the original comment, I assumed that "efficient language" > meant efficient use of the developer's time. I'm surprised (but I > shouldn't be) that people still want to talk about "code written in > language A, runs faster than if written in language B). Some of us don't like seeing perfectly good hardware being wasted by lazy ass idiot programmers. Also some of us work on embedded hardware and really hate wasting CPU on stupid languages. Saving developer time is highly overrated. How about the time of the tester you waste, the resources of customers you waste, etc. > As to runtime efficiency, the Sun Java HotSpotVM technology is derived > from the Animorphic VM built for Smalltalk, which was bought by Sun. At > runtime, the VM chooses "hot" methods to compile its bytecodes into > native machine code, and caches the compiled machine code for subsequent > invocations. And, this still works for polymorphic invocations (i.e. the > calling code doesn't know the exact class in the hierarchy of the object > being invoked). This will execute faster than any C++ compiler that uses > vtables. I don't like C++ either for the same reason. C++ only gets decent performance when you avoid that stuff. > I'll also contend that, except for very short programs, a system written > in Smalltalk or Java, running with Animorphic VM ideas, could run faster > than a well written C version. There are two reasons. One, once a > program gets big enough, you need to do memory mgmt, and the VM's > garbage collection would probably do a better job than ad hoc code. Two, > the VM optimizations are discovered and applied at runtime, and it will > find optimizations that developers could not have imagined, when looking > at a small bit of code -- i.e. like what happens when the global > optimization switch is used for a C compiler. Java's garbage collection has always been amazingly bad. Java might actually become almost useful if it let the developer do the memory management. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:18:27 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:18:27 -0400 Subject: C is fastest (was: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System) In-Reply-To: <20091014135558.GD5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <491f66a50910140718w6a014b56xcf05413a0db9ad0c@mail.gmail.com> > Java's garbage collection has always been amazingly bad. Java might > actually become almost useful if it let the developer do the memory > management. > Well, this certainly isn't the opinion of most researchers. Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:20:19 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: World of Goo game In-Reply-To: <20091014135048.GB5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091014135048.GB5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | I just saw today that World of Goo (a nifty little puzzle game) is on sale | to celebrate its aniversary, and well they actually have linux versions of | it, as .rpm, .deb and .tar.gz. Any idea how long a binary that you buy now is likely to run given that Linux's "ABI" changes over time? About the only binary that we've bought is Mathmatica, about 10 years ago, and it certainly got stranded within a couple or Red Hat releases. She probably should have bought the Win9x version -- it would likely still work. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:32:54 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:32:54 -0400 Subject: World of Goo game In-Reply-To: References: <20091014135048.GB5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091014143254.GE5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:20:19AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Lennart Sorensen > > | I just saw today that World of Goo (a nifty little puzzle game) is on sale > | to celebrate its aniversary, and well they actually have linux versions of > | it, as .rpm, .deb and .tar.gz. > > Any idea how long a binary that you buy now is likely to run given > that Linux's "ABI" changes over time? Actually the ABI seems to have gotten much more stable. The last ABI issues I remember were around 2.4.10 or something like that, which is many years ago. Most of those ABI issues even have workarounds. > About the only binary that we've bought is Mathmatica, about 10 years > ago, and it certainly got stranded within a couple or Red Hat > releases. She probably should have bought the Win9x version -- it would > likely still work. Well in the case of this game, you can get the linux, windows and mac versions. Something is likely to work. Besides we have virtual machines now you could run it in later if needed. It even includes both 32 and 64bit versions for x86 it would seem. It has its own copies of some shared libraries it uses that it puts in /opt along with the game. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:35:42 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:35:42 -0400 Subject: C is fastest (was: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System) In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910140718w6a014b56xcf05413a0db9ad0c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910140718w6a014b56xcf05413a0db9ad0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091014143542.GF5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:18:27AM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > > Java's garbage collection has always been amazingly bad. Java might > > actually become almost useful if it let the developer do the memory > > management. > > Well, this certainly isn't the opinion of most researchers. Well researchers don't get everything right. Garbage collection sounds like a good idea, until real applications have to be written. The number of java applications that like to consume 500MB or 1GB of ram to do almost nothing is rediculous. Maybe the garbage collection simply isn't working because the programmers are doing a terrible job. Either way it is encouraging developers to not think about resources at all. Clearly that isn't working. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:39:31 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:39:31 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014135558.GD5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Saving developer time is highly overrated. How about the time of the > tester you waste, the resources of customers you waste, etc. > That depends entirely on the situation. If you are building something that will be used internally, or will only be sold in small quantities, then the development cycle becomes the biggest component of the overall cost. If you are doing an embedded system that will be produced in large quantities, then production cost becomes the larger component and you need to reduce that by spending extra development time, fine tuning part selection and using the smallest processor you can get away with. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:40:35 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: World of Goo game In-Reply-To: <20091014143254.GE5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091014135048.GB5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014143254.GE5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | > Any idea how long a binary that you buy now is likely to run given | > that Linux's "ABI" changes over time? | | Actually the ABI seems to have gotten much more stable. The last ABI | issues I remember were around 2.4.10 or something like that, which is | many years ago. Most of those ABI issues even have workarounds. You take me too literally. The ABI practically includes glibc, xlib, and who knows what else. | It even includes both 32 and 64bit versions for x86 it would seem. | It has its own copies of some shared libraries it uses that it puts in | /opt along with the game. That's probably the best hope. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:45:00 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:45:00 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <4AD5E2A3.2030900-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> Message-ID: <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:39:31AM -0400, Darryl Moore wrote: > That depends entirely on the situation. If you are building something > that will be used internally, or will only be sold in small quantities, > then the development cycle becomes the biggest component of the overall > cost. Then perhaps you should be using python, ocaml or haskall. They all seem to do very well whenever fast implementation of something is required. ocaml and haskall do very well in competitions where time limits and maintainability and improvements of code and functionality quickly are needed. java and C++ never so. Even perl might be an OK option. > If you are doing an embedded system that will be produced in large > quantities, then production cost becomes the larger component and you > need to reduce that by spending extra development time, fine tuning part > selection and using the smallest processor you can get away with. Internal programs have a tendancy to stick around forever being changed again and again. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:46:01 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:46:01 -0400 Subject: World of Goo game In-Reply-To: References: <20091014135048.GB5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014143254.GE5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091014144601.GH5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:40:35AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Lennart Sorensen > > | > Any idea how long a binary that you buy now is likely to run given > | > that Linux's "ABI" changes over time? > | > | Actually the ABI seems to have gotten much more stable. The last ABI > | issues I remember were around 2.4.10 or something like that, which is > | many years ago. Most of those ABI issues even have workarounds. > > You take me too literally. The ABI practically includes glibc, xlib, > and who knows what else. The C library ABI seems to have become very stable too. That is part of the above (surprisingly). > | It even includes both 32 and 64bit versions for x86 it would seem. > | It has its own copies of some shared libraries it uses that it puts in > | /opt along with the game. > > That's probably the best hope. It seems to include at least SDL and a few other libs. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:48:45 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:48:45 -0400 Subject: C is fastest (was: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System) In-Reply-To: <20091014143542.GF5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910140718w6a014b56xcf05413a0db9ad0c@mail.gmail.com> <20091014143542.GF5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <491f66a50910140748i6f9de530o6a5beb88c768a3db@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:18:27AM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > > > Java's garbage collection has always been amazingly bad. Java might > > > actually become almost useful if it let the developer do the memory > > > management. > > > > Well, this certainly isn't the opinion of most researchers. > > Well researchers don't get everything right. Garbage collection sounds > like a good idea, until real applications have to be written. The number > of java applications that like to consume 500MB or 1GB of ram to do > almost nothing is rediculous. Maybe the garbage collection simply isn't > working because the programmers are doing a terrible job. Either way > it is encouraging developers to not think about resources at all. > Clearly that isn't working. > > Ok, I now understand your POV, and I agree, however just because programmers don't know how to use it does not make it bad, it just makes it dangerous. Programming has always been that way, pointers to functions are serious foot guns to poor programmers, that doesn't make them bad. 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URL: From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:51:31 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:51:31 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014144500.GG5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:39:31AM -0400, Darryl Moore wrote: >> That depends entirely on the situation. If you are building something >> that will be used internally, or will only be sold in small quantities, >> then the development cycle becomes the biggest component of the overall >> cost. > > Then perhaps you should be using python, ocaml or haskall. They all seem > to do very well whenever fast implementation of something is required. > ocaml and haskall do very well in competitions where time limits and > maintainability and improvements of code and functionality quickly > are needed. java and C++ never so. Even perl might be an OK option. > Perhaps. I wasn't actually talking in defense of C++, and it didn't appear to me that your prior comment was specific to C++ either. >> If you are doing an embedded system that will be produced in large >> quantities, then production cost becomes the larger component and you >> need to reduce that by spending extra development time, fine tuning part >> selection and using the smallest processor you can get away with. > > Internal programs have a tendancy to stick around forever being changed > again and again. > non-sequitur? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vanaltj-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 14:53:17 2009 From: vanaltj-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jon VanAlten) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:53:17 -0400 Subject: C is fastest (was: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System) In-Reply-To: <20091014135558.GD5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Some of us don't like seeing perfectly good hardware being wasted by > lazy ass idiot programmers. > > Also some of us work on embedded hardware and really hate wasting CPU > on stupid languages. > Not being the best tool for a particular task doesn't make a tool useless or stupid. > Saving developer time is highly overrated. ?How about the time of the > tester you waste, the resources of customers you waste, etc. > The lazy ass idiot programmers you speak of earlier are capable of such wastage regardless of the language used. >> I'll also contend that, except for very short programs, a system written >> in Smalltalk or Java, running with Animorphic VM ideas, could run faster >> than a well written C version. There are two reasons. One, once a >> program gets big enough, you need to do memory mgmt, and the VM's >> garbage collection would probably do a better job than ad hoc code. Two, >> the VM optimizations are discovered and applied at runtime, and it will >> find optimizations that developers could not have imagined, when looking >> at a small bit of code -- i.e. like what happens when the global >> optimization switch is used for a C compiler. > > Java's garbage collection has always been amazingly bad. ?Java might > actually become almost useful if it let the developer do the memory > management. > Again, "not useful for my particular needs" does not imply "not useful at all". Even accepting your premise that Java's garbage collection is inefficient, there are use cases where one is less concerned with CPU cycles. The average desktop or laptop on the market today is grossly overpowered relative to the typical use of "Joe Consumer". I think that where Java's strength lies is in the wide range of preexisting functionality already built into the language. Of course, to make good use of these a programmer must not be lazy or stupid, good Java programmers have invested a lot of time in learning the multitude of classes made available. And the fact that there continues to be improvements made in the efficiency, ie Hotspot, of the language at runtime just sweetens the deal. cheers, jon ps: I say these things, but also my personal preference is for C. I do like the low level of abstraction, and literal control over memory, and the potential for efficiency esp. with a good optimizing compiler. But I can also see that there are uses for higher level languages such as Java, with its myriad of libraries. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 15:05:57 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:05:57 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <4AD5E573.2070707-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> Message-ID: <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:51:31AM -0400, Darryl Moore wrote: > Perhaps. I wasn't actually talking in defense of C++, and it didn't > appear to me that your prior comment was specific to C++ either. No mainly at java. I don't mind people using C++. I am not a fan of it and wouldn't really want to use it. Java I put in the category of 'hate'. It is that bad. It is actually harmful. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 15:09:07 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:09:07 -0400 Subject: C is fastest (was: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System) In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091014150907.GJ5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:53:17AM -0400, Jon VanAlten wrote: > Not being the best tool for a particular task doesn't make a tool > useless or stupid. > > The lazy ass idiot programmers you speak of earlier are capable of > such wastage regardless of the language used. Oh probably they are, but they in many cases would realize they don't know what they are doing. Some languages encourage people to think they know what they are doing by hiding all the problems they are creating. > Again, "not useful for my particular needs" does not imply "not useful > at all". Even accepting your premise that Java's garbage collection > is inefficient, there are use cases where one is less concerned with > CPU cycles. The average desktop or laptop on the market today is > grossly overpowered relative to the typical use of "Joe Consumer". As a user, I hate everytime I encounter a java application because my machine slows to a crawl. Nothing to do with writing programs personally. It simply sucks. > I think that where Java's strength lies is in the wide range of > preexisting functionality already built into the language. Of course, > to make good use of these a programmer must not be lazy or stupid, > good Java programmers have invested a lot of time in learning the > multitude of classes made available. And the fact that there > continues to be improvements made in the efficiency, ie Hotspot, of > the language at runtime just sweetens the deal. Having lots of libraries doesn't mean the language as a base is worth it. python has lots of libraries, ocaml has lots of libraries. Both are better choices. > ps: I say these things, but also my personal preference is for C. I > do like the low level of abstraction, and literal control over memory, > and the potential for efficiency esp. with a good optimizing compiler. > But I can also see that there are uses for higher level languages > such as Java, with its myriad of libraries. Having libraries is good. Having java with mandetory turning everything in to objected oriented spagheti is not. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 15:14:27 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:14:27 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014150557.GI5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD5EAD3.3060507@moores.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:51:31AM -0400, Darryl Moore wrote: >> Perhaps. I wasn't actually talking in defense of C++, and it didn't >> appear to me that your prior comment was specific to C++ either. > > No mainly at java. I don't mind people using C++. I am not a fan of it > and wouldn't really want to use it. Java I put in the category of 'hate'. > It is that bad. It is actually harmful. > Interesting. I haven't had much oportunity to use java yet. Most of what I write is still in C and assembly, as most of it runs on small embedded platforms which are produced in large quantities. I actually want to get into writing Java as I want to get into doing some Android development. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 18:01:49 2009 From: mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Matthew Godycki) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014150557.GI5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <809576.87919.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > No mainly at java. I don't mind people using C++. I am not a fan of it > and wouldn't really want to use it. Java I put in the category of 'hate'. >It is that bad. It is actually harmful. You folks really get super evangelical about this stuff don't you? The tone of these exchanges is bordering on the contempt often show by religious crusaders. The world of technology is vast, and there are many tools suitable for many things. As with all tools/technologies, it takes a good designer and developer to make good use of the tool. That's true of C, perl, Java, etc. I for one am thankful at all the Java frameworks I have available to me that allow me to standardize the banalities of data access, unit and integration testing, etc. All things that matter a great deal in the world of enterprise development. In that world for example, individual CPU cycles are irrelevant. My budgets often break down like this: - hardware cost: 50-100k for Linux servers - development cost: 500k-$1million So yes, development time matters. For the sorts of systems I happen to build a good Java developer is significantly more productive than a C developer (let's remove the idiots from the conversation because as we've all seen, bad code is universal regardless of the underlying technologies). Now, just so that I don't get called a pro-Java fluffcake... ;) I grew up on C and assembler and spent a lot of enjoyable time in UNIX systems programming. I certainly appreciate THOSE technologies and their place in our world as well. Cheers, -Matthew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 18:10:55 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:10:55 -0400 Subject: World of Goo game In-Reply-To: <20091014135048.GB5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091014135048.GB5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091014141055.68e43686@teksavvy.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I just saw today that World of Goo (a nifty little puzzle game) is on sale > to celebrate its aniversary, and well they actually have linux versions of > it, as .rpm, .deb and .tar.gz. The sale is that you pay whatever you want > for it, with whatever you want being from $0.01 up to $20 (the regular > price), in US dollars (not that it makes any real difference currently). > > You can find it at http://www.worldofgoo.com/ if interested. > > They have a free demo verison too to try out first. > > The server is rather overloaded at the moment, but once you get through > the download is pretty quick. > > ....many hours pass.... > > Well it would have been today had I finished and sent the email yesterday. > Well it is still on and might be less busy now. It's a really good game for kids too, and in my view it can only teach them useful things. At least they're not blowing things up all the time :-) -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 18:39:33 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:39:33 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <4AD54C3C.6030006-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> Message-ID: Yanni, >>> For business-critical work like OSCAR, using MySQL is probably a >>> serious mistake. >> >> If it's good enough for Yahoo! and Wikipedia, it's probably good enough >> for the rest of us. > > If Oscar is just a scheduling, billing and visit tracking app, then it's > probably not a big deal. If it were to be storing patient history and drug > treatment regimen, then I'd be worried that it's MySQL instead of > PostgreSQL. I am going to avoid getting on which of the two database is better. Its likely that mysql is inferior to PostgreSQL for sure. However, I do think you come out too strong to be frank. Problem is, when you are that strong, people start wondering if you are being objective. Try pushing Linux to a Window user in that style and you will not go far. Now, the other thing you can not take away from mysql, is it does some real critical stuff in real life. That history should ease your worries if it were to be used in medicine industry. I think you can evaluate how much people trust a software by the dollar amount they entrust to such software. And google comes in very handy at that. Every cent that google makes is earned through mysql. I learned that while watching their QA methods on youtube. Just google it to be certain. This is a quote from wikipedia.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdWords Begin quote The AdWords system was initially implemented on top of the MySQL database engine. After the system had been launched, management decided to use a commercial database (Oracle) instead. As is typical of applications simultaneously written and tuned for one database, and ported to another, the system became much slower, so eventually it was returned to MySQL. [14] The interface has also been revamped to offer better work flow with additional new features, such as, Spreadsheet Editing, Search Query Reports, and better Conversion Metrics[15] End quote Now, if mysql can make google billions, why would you assert it should not be trusted at all? > > -- > Yanni > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 18:57:38 2009 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:57:38 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014135558.GD5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD61F22.4090509@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Also some of us work on embedded hardware and really hate wasting CPU > on stupid languages. In the mid-80's Tektronics oscilloscopes were built using Smalltalk running on a VM (i.e. bytecode interpreter). I'm not sure whether they had custom garbage collection though. In any case, garbage collection can be managed by controlling when it is invoked - by setting the policy hooks, or by having the system initiate garbage collection at an opportune time. Hardware resources were even more scarce back then, and yet they found the trade-off worthwhile. A Java VM is basically the same - a bytecode interpreter with garbage collection. So if Java is failing to yield useful software, in your experience, then it may indeed be due to the language itself encouraging poor coding practice, since the VM technology is certainly up for the challenge. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:06:17 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:06:17 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910141206k790f935erda1763aeec22cef5@mail.gmail.com> > > > Now, if mysql can make google billions, why would you assert it should > not be trusted at all? > I'm fairly sure that google has fairly sophisticated DBA's running their MySQL servers. Doctors do not. I would want something that was very difficult to break, MySQL isn't. AdWords is not a critical function. Medical "history" is the point... of the an EMR system. If you lose the history it is worthless. Not to mention the fact that how much money something makes does not infer it's robustness. Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:09:10 2009 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:09:10 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4AD621D6.6010003@rogers.com> William Muriithi wrote: > I am going to avoid getting on which of the two database is better. > Its likely that mysql is inferior to PostgreSQL for sure. However, I > do think you come out too strong to be frank. I didn't think I was too strong. I was just try to avoid having to repeat what has been posted here many times, which is that the integrity of the data is much more secure in PostgreSQL than in MySQL. I think you've missed my point, unless you believe that losing a few micro-dollars due to lack of data integrity in Google AdWords is comparable to mis-diagnosis or mis-treatment due to lack of data integrity in patient records. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:12:33 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:12:33 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014150557.GI5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:51:31AM -0400, Darryl Moore wrote: >> Perhaps. I wasn't actually talking in defense of C++, and it didn't >> appear to me that your prior comment was specific to C++ either. > > No mainly at java. ?I don't mind people using C++. ?I am not a fan of it > and wouldn't really want to use it. ?Java I put in the category of 'hate'. > It is that bad. ?It is actually harmful. Dang you would be a hard partner to convince that using C++ is better than C , that OO design/code is better than procedural C code and mostly Ruby is better then tab indented Python code ;) ;) .... kidding!!! > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://devmentor.org Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:23:29 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:23:29 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4AD62531.7080506@dinamis.com> William Muriithi wrote: > Now, if mysql can make google billions, why would you assert it should > not be trusted at all? I don't know about Google but I know that Yahoo has a private and apparently heavily-modified build of BSD and MySQL. If you have the resources of a Yahoo or Google to maintain your own MySQL distribution, maybe it's a choice, and even then one has to wonder why they would bother. It's not like MySQL has *any* advantage to offer over PostgreSQL. It's a mistake to assume that these big organizations are any better at making these choices than smaller ones or that they're made any differently. They might have backed into using MySQL due to the ignorance, limitations, or biases of whoever decided to use MySQL originally and are now stuck with that choice. Many IT decisions are made out of fashion, FUD, and happenstance, not necessarily because there was an entirely rational process in making them. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:39:34 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:39:34 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:51:31AM -0400, Darryl Moore wrote: >>> Perhaps. I wasn't actually talking in defense of C++, and it didn't >>> appear to me that your prior comment was specific to C++ either. >> >> No mainly at java. ?I don't mind people using C++. ?I am not a fan of it >> and wouldn't really want to use it. ?Java I put in the category of 'hate'. >> It is that bad. ?It is actually harmful. > > Dang you would be a hard partner to convince that using C++ is better > than C , that OO design/code is better than procedural C code and > mostly Ruby is better then tab indented Python code ;) ;) .... > kidding!!! You'll find a number of us that haven't "taken the OO kool-aid." A fair bit of my "language non-preference" is pretty similar to Lennart's except that I'd swap C++ and Java, and would throw in that UML seems worse to me than either C++ or Java. (And yes, I know it's not used as an executable language.) I have seen reasonably performant applications written in Java, so can believe it doesn't *have* to be terrible. I think a lot of developers have gone into Java without a knowledge of programming in general, and so wind up committing many of the more egregious "programming sins" there first. And you can "sin mighty badly" in Java without your application actually totally falling apart, because the absence of direct pointer manipulation (typical in C/C++) means you don't have *that* "foot-gun" available to drop the foundation out from under your application. Of course, my typical actual threat at work is to put forth a serious proposal to rewrite all our Java stuff in Ada :-). Every so often, I joke about that, with the comment that I'm not totally UNserious about it. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/languages.html "If Ada became the hot, in-language you would see a lot more bad code in Ada." -- Thaddeus L. Olczyk , comp.lang.C++ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:44:34 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:44:34 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091014194434.GK5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 03:12:33PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Dang you would be a hard partner to convince that using C++ is better > than C , that OO design/code is better than procedural C code and > mostly Ruby is better then tab indented Python code ;) ;) .... > kidding!!! Can you believe I learned C++ before C and in fact learned C by finding which parts of my code the compiler didn't like? I do believe that if we actually want to take advantage of our now common 4 and 8 way machines, we need languages that are functional not OO so that the language and compiler can auto generate multithreaded code to take advantage of modern machines. Most programmers can't write multithreaded code that works. Preferably they shouldn't have to either, but I do believe they have to give up OO to get there. Perhaps OO doesn't have to completely go, but certainly I don't believe java and C++ stand a chance here. Microsoft may be able to do something with C# or more likely F# (which is a nice looking language, too bad I don't care to write code in Visual Studio on windows). 10 years ago, having more than one cpu core was for expensive servers. These days a laptop has 2 or 4 cores. It's time to get used to it. The days of ever increasing clock frequencies are done. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:45:55 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:45:55 -0400 Subject: Washington Post: To bank safely online, use Linux Message-ID: <7fc604580910141245j7c589495qa41bf62925a02eaa@mail.gmail.com> http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/10/avoid_windows_malware_bank_on.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:47:02 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:47:02 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091014194702.GL5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 03:39:34PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > You'll find a number of us that haven't "taken the OO kool-aid." > > A fair bit of my "language non-preference" is pretty similar to > Lennart's except that I'd swap C++ and Java, and would throw in that > UML seems worse to me than either C++ or Java. (And yes, I know it's > not used as an executable language.) > > I have seen reasonably performant applications written in Java, so can > believe it doesn't *have* to be terrible. I think a lot of developers > have gone into Java without a knowledge of programming in general, and > so wind up committing many of the more egregious "programming sins" > there first. > > And you can "sin mighty badly" in Java without your application > actually totally falling apart, because the absence of direct pointer > manipulation (typical in C/C++) means you don't have *that* "foot-gun" > available to drop the foundation out from under your application. > > Of course, my typical actual threat at work is to put forth a serious > proposal to rewrite all our Java stuff in Ada :-). Every so often, I > joke about that, with the comment that I'm not totally UNserious about > it. ADA is a nice language that somehow has gone largely ignored. Apparently many people don't want their language to tell them 'no' when they try to do something stupid and likely to make buggy code. Funny that. ADA even makes nice pseudo code. Practically the only thing I have ever seen it used for. I do know a few people that have written some ADA code though, although only for assignments. Very readable. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:49:59 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:49:59 -0400 Subject: C is fastest (was: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System) In-Reply-To: <20091014143542.GF5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910140718w6a014b56xcf05413a0db9ad0c@mail.gmail.com> <20091014143542.GF5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Well researchers don't get everything right. ?Garbage collection sounds > like a good idea, until real applications have to be written. ?The number > of java applications that like to consume 500MB or 1GB of ram to do > almost nothing is rediculous. ?Maybe the garbage collection simply isn't > working because the programmers are doing a terrible job. ?Either way > it is encouraging developers to not think about resources at all. > Clearly that isn't working. I have seen *terrible* things happen with this, but disagree that it's the fault of garbage collection itself. Case in point... We used to use a replication system called eRserver, implemented in Java. The programmer had the NON-bright idea of drawing all the queries he was submitting into memory, so that the Java process would bloat up in size in keeping with how much data was getting synchronized. This was totally unnecessary - each SQL statement getting generated and submitted could get discarded immediately upon having been generated. Garbage collection hid from that developer that the queries were getting held up in memory; he never noticed (possibly ever). This wasn't a Java problem, or a garbage collection problem; all of that is a red herring. If he was allocating strings in C using malloc(), or using "new" in C++, THE SAME PROBLEM WOULD HAVE ARISEN, and for fairly much the same reasons. The problem isn't that "garbage collection is bad," it is that programmers who don't pay enough attention to their systems to have either: a) interest, or b) ability to profile and address the bottlenecks of the systems that they build shouldn't be let near anything "going to production." The visible presence of malloc() in C throws these problems in the C programmer's face; most of the time, I'd prefer to NOT have those details thrown in my face. I'd rather profile + fix when there actually is a problem. Otherwise, we're heading back down the road towards "better write everything in assembly language, because otherwise it might not all be optimized!" There are cases where that's appropriate (e.g. - embedded), but not everywhere. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Stephen Leacock - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue that I shall some day die, which is not so." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/stephen_leacock.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:50:20 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:50:20 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014194434.GK5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014194434.GK5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD62B7C.906@moores.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > 10 years ago, having more than one cpu core was for expensive servers. > These days a laptop has 2 or 4 cores. It's time to get used to it. > The days of ever increasing clock frequencies are done. > Interesting you say that.... http://www.insidescience.org/research/computers_faster_only_for_75_more_years -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:51:03 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:51:03 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <4AD61F22.4090509-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD61F22.4090509@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091014195103.GM5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 02:57:38PM -0400, Yanni Chiu wrote: > In the mid-80's Tektronics oscilloscopes were built using Smalltalk > running on a VM (i.e. bytecode interpreter). I'm not sure whether they > had custom garbage collection though. In any case, garbage collection > can be managed by controlling when it is invoked - by setting the policy > hooks, or by having the system initiate garbage collection at an > opportune time. Hardware resources were even more scarce back then, and > yet they found the trade-off worthwhile. Smalltalk is its own weird thing. I suspect most people working with it are pretty good programmers to begin with. > A Java VM is basically the same - a bytecode interpreter with garbage > collection. So if Java is failing to yield useful software, in your > experience, then it may indeed be due to the language itself encouraging > poor coding practice, since the VM technology is certainly up for the > challenge. The VM may be similar, but the language being compiled into byte code isn't. Garbage in -> garbage out. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:57:12 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:57:12 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014194434.GK5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014194434.GK5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I do believe that if we actually want to take advantage of our now common > 4 and 8 way machines, we need languages that are functional not OO so > that the language and compiler can auto generate multithreaded code > to take advantage of modern machines. ?Most programmers can't write > multithreaded code that works. ?Preferably they shouldn't have to either, > but I do believe they have to give up OO to get there. ?Perhaps OO > doesn't have to completely go, but certainly I don't believe java and > C++ stand a chance here. ?Microsoft may be able to do something with C# > or more likely F# (which is a nice looking language, too bad I don't > care to write code in Visual Studio on windows). With this I agree. FYI, F# is a dialect of ML which is mostly like OCAML. (Presumably except for some parts that aren't like OCAML; dunno what...) It should be pointed out that OO has a propensity for being incompatible with thread-safety, and that's an increasing problem these days. OO tends to bind state together with data structures, and requires having strict interfaces to those objects, which, with the greater concurrency we're seeing on many-core CPUs, leads to a lot more locking/blocking. The language that seems to have gone the furthest in the opposite direction is Erlang. They basically took Prolog, dropped out backtracking, which means you're left with deterministic functional (e.g. - "one path") code, which has the massive benefit that practically all your code becomes re-entrant, and may be invoked many times in parallel. Unfortunately, they took a Prolog-ish syntax, which tends to confuse people. It's not clear whether ML can be readily parallelized in congruent fashion. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach - "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/marie_von_ebnereschenbac.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 19:58:09 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:58:09 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <4AD62B7C.906-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014194434.GK5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD62B7C.906@moores.ca> Message-ID: <20091014195809.GN5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 03:50:20PM -0400, Darryl Moore wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > 10 years ago, having more than one cpu core was for expensive servers. > > These days a laptop has 2 or 4 cores. It's time to get used to it. > > The days of ever increasing clock frequencies are done. > > > > Interesting you say that.... > > http://www.insidescience.org/research/computers_faster_only_for_75_more_years Well IBM has 5GHz cpus. Intel and AMD seems to be stuck at around 3 to 3.5GHz and have been for a number of years now. They have just gone from 1 to 2 to 4 (and 3) cores, sometimes adding multiple threads per core (only 2 per core so far). Having a 2.67GHz machine capable of 8 way computing is pretty neat. Doesn't run firefox any faster though it seems. Intel originally thought the P4 could be scaled to 10GHz over its lifespan. That didn't happen. 3.8GHz was it, and that didn't seem very reliable. You could probably make a 10GHz cpu right now, as long as you were willing to liquid cool it to the extreme to dissipate 300 to 400W. The cooling would probably require quite a bit of power too. Or you can use all those extra transisters the current die processes have to add more independant cores at the currently achivable clock speeds, which seems to be what everyone has decided makes sense to do. Too bad the sequential one thing at a time programs people have been writing for years and years don't benefit directly from that. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 20:03:46 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:03:46 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014194434.GK5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091014200346.GO5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 03:57:12PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > I do believe that if we actually want to take advantage of our now common > > 4 and 8 way machines, we need languages that are functional not OO so > > that the language and compiler can auto generate multithreaded code > > to take advantage of modern machines. ?Most programmers can't write > > multithreaded code that works. ?Preferably they shouldn't have to either, > > but I do believe they have to give up OO to get there. ?Perhaps OO > > doesn't have to completely go, but certainly I don't believe java and > > C++ stand a chance here. ?Microsoft may be able to do something with C# > > or more likely F# (which is a nice looking language, too bad I don't > > care to write code in Visual Studio on windows). > > With this I agree. > > FYI, F# is a dialect of ML which is mostly like OCAML. (Presumably > except for some parts that aren't like OCAML; dunno what...) Yes it does look a lot like it. > It should be pointed out that OO has a propensity for being > incompatible with thread-safety, and that's an increasing problem > these days. OO tends to bind state together with data structures, and > requires having strict interfaces to those objects, which, with the > greater concurrency we're seeing on many-core CPUs, leads to a lot > more locking/blocking. Data structures are a good thing. Tieing the state with the data is not such a good thing once you want to make it scalable. > The language that seems to have gone the furthest in the opposite > direction is Erlang. Not one I have used. > They basically took Prolog, dropped out backtracking, which means > you're left with deterministic functional (e.g. - "one path") code, > which has the massive benefit that practically all your code becomes > re-entrant, and may be invoked many times in parallel. Prolog I have used, and it sure is weird. My wife has done much more with it and some of the stuff she did I still can't understand. Apparently prolog can do things I had never imagined, but the syntax to do it is just weird. Like what direction is this executing in anyhow? > Unfortunately, they took a Prolog-ish syntax, which tends to confuse people. It certainly would. > It's not clear whether ML can be readily parallelized in congruent fashion. At least it appears to have potential for it. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 20:07:17 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:07:17 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091014200717.GP5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 02:39:33PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > Yanni, > >>> For business-critical work like OSCAR, using MySQL is probably a > >>> serious mistake. > >> > >> If it's good enough for Yahoo! and Wikipedia, it's probably good enough > >> for the rest of us. > > > > If Oscar is just a scheduling, billing and visit tracking app, then it's > > probably not a big deal. If it were to be storing patient history and drug > > treatment regimen, then I'd be worried that it's MySQL instead of > > PostgreSQL. > > I am going to avoid getting on which of the two database is better. > Its likely that mysql is inferior to PostgreSQL for sure. However, I > do think you come out too strong to be frank. Problem is, when you are > that strong, people start wondering if you are being objective. Try > pushing Linux to a Window user in that style and you will not go far. > > Now, the other thing you can not take away from mysql, is it does some > real critical stuff in real life. That history should ease your > worries if it were to be used in medicine industry. I think you can > evaluate how much people trust a software by the dollar amount they > entrust to such software. And google comes in very handy at that. > Every cent that google makes is earned through mysql. I learned that > while watching their QA methods on youtube. Just google it to be > certain. > > This is a quote from wikipedia.. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdWords > > Begin quote > The AdWords system was initially implemented on top of the MySQL > database engine. After the system had been launched, management > decided to use a commercial database (Oracle) instead. As is typical > of applications simultaneously written and tuned for one database, and > ported to another, the system became much slower, so eventually it was > returned to MySQL. [14] The interface has also been revamped to offer > better work flow with additional new features, such as, Spreadsheet > Editing, Search Query Reports, and better Conversion Metrics[15] > End quote > > > Now, if mysql can make google billions, why would you assert it should > not be trusted at all? Worst thing that happens if mysql fails for google? They loose some add money. Their search users won't care, the search engine still works. Simply not a big deal. No comparison. There are good technical reasons to avoid mysql, although you can work around them with enough effort. But better databases exist, so why bother with mysql at all? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 20:26:01 2009 From: mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Matthew Godycki) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C is fastest (was: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System) In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910140718w6a014b56xcf05413a0db9ad0c@mail.gmail.com> <20091014143542.GF5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <770304.98885.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > If he was allocating strings in C using malloc(), or using "new" in > C++, THE SAME PROBLEM WOULD HAVE ARISEN, and for fairly much the same > reasons. > > The problem isn't that "garbage collection is bad," it is that > programmers who don't pay enough attention to their systems to have > either: > a) interest, or > b) ability > to profile and address the bottlenecks of the systems that they build > shouldn't be let near anything "going to production." Christopher, you hit the nail on the head. At the end of the day, developers write/design good or bad code. While it's true that certain technologies become more accessible to poorer developers because they abstract some details out (as is the case in this garbage collection example) I personally would rather not stop the evolution of technologies to make my job easier because lousy programmers may not use it the right way. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 20:28:40 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:28:40 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910091700j59d0488es5dc63ffe11f9136f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910140718w6a014b56xcf05413a0db9ad0c@mail.gmail.com> <20091014143542.GF5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD63478.7070600@the-wire.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > The problem isn't that "garbage collection is bad," it is that > programmers who don't pay enough attention to their systems to have > either: > a) interest, or > b) ability > to profile and address the bottlenecks of the systems that they build > shouldn't be let near anything "going to production." Maybe this is the price of institutional acceptance: programmers for wages, who program whether they want to or not, get sent to program in Java, whether they want to or not. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 21:36:14 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:36:14 -0400 Subject: How-To: Configure and Schedule Automated Backups in Linux Message-ID: <7c50d3570910141436l25b84303te6566cead3c7264d@mail.gmail.com> Most of you probably already know how to do this, but it's an interesting article regardless, the only problem it's 2 pages which is small for a how-to done by MPC; here is an excerpt: "Regardless of the operating system you are using, data loss is inevitable. Sooner or later, it will happen to you?the only question is how much data you will lose. Although RAID can act as an insurance policy for hardware failures, it was never designed to serve as a backup and will not perform this task well at all. Human error is always the greatest concern since important files can be accidentally overwritten or deleted at careless moments. It is easy to fall behind on your backups or get complacent; without recent backups you have no recovery strategy. This guide will help you automate your backups on your Linux rig so you will always have your files up to date." http://www.maximumpc.com/article/howtos/howto_configure_and_schedule_automated_backups_linux -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 21:56:23 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <20091014200717.GP5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> <20091014200717.GP5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: >> >> Now, if mysql can make google billions, why would you assert it should >> not be trusted at all? > > Worst thing that happens if mysql fails for google? ?They loose some > add money. ?Their search users won't care, the search engine still works. > > Simply not a big deal. ?No comparison. > >From what I saw on that youtube video, its would not be as simple as that. It need to work reliably to a cent else the customer would take the advantage of the perceived unreliability to claim charge back. I quoted this case for one reason, the management thought it was such an important database they even wanted to replace mysql with oracle. And considering the number of people who logs on adsense a day, that would have meant millions in oracle licensing fee. One thing we are missing here is the business model of google. Yes, its true search engine would work and users would not be affected initially, but if the business has no positive cash flow, those would also eventually fail. Anyway, that was my 2 cents. May be I am not good at explaining myself or something > There are good technical reasons to avoid mysql, although you can work > around them with enough effort. ?But better databases exist, so why > bother with mysql at all? > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 22:48:40 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:48:40 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014194434.GK5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014194434.GK5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 03:12:33PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> Dang you would be a hard partner to convince that using C++ is better >> than C , that OO design/code is better than procedural C code and >> mostly Ruby is better then tab indented Python code ;) ;) .... >> kidding!!! > > Can you believe I learned C++ before C and in fact learned C by finding > which parts of my code the compiler didn't like? You wrote C++ code the compiler barfed up =) .... than I am sure you're glad you don't need to worry about working with STL and C++ Template classes in C. I went the other way C to C++, took a while to get use to OO programming. I don't think about it that much. possibly I see things more easily as object due to the long-term C++ exposure? I remember when I worked at Nortel as a intern( when Nortel was the place to be ). The server team wrote code in C only, they didn't understand C++ and they feared it like no tomorrow. So I get it when some people (not you) say they don't like C++ or any other OO language. > > I do believe that if we actually want to take advantage of our now common > 4 and 8 way machines, we need languages that are functional not OO so > that the language and compiler can auto generate multithreaded code > to take advantage of modern machines. ?Most programmers can't write > multithreaded code that works. ?Preferably they shouldn't have to either, > but I do believe they have to give up OO to get there. We write C++ multi-thread code here at work and the last few places I worked they wrote multi-threaded C++ code. I don't think OO gets in the way of threading, just that some can't understand how to design and code multi-threaded apps. If you gave them C in place of C++, they would create the same multi-threaded mess only in C. I've written multi-threaded code in C++ as well as multi-thread classes, not once did I have to stop and say, damn this OO, it keep getting in the way, let me drop down to C in this code module. I mentioned RapidMind here before on a different thread. They built a multi-processor, multi-threaded framework for C++ programmers, it also harness the power for GPUs to parallelizes methods, algorithms and the code in general. http://www.rapidmind.net/technology.php "With RapidMind, developers continue to write code in standard C++ and use their existing skills, tools and processes. The RapidMind platform then parallelizes the application across multiple cores and manages its execution." So C++ and threading can and do work very well. Seems like Rapidmind is trying to let the platform take care of the parallel work to some extent and not have it all fall on the programmer. >Perhaps OO > doesn't have to completely go, but certainly I don't believe java and > C++ stand a chance here. ?Microsoft may be able to do something with C# > or more likely F# (which is a nice looking language, too bad I don't > care to write code in Visual Studio on windows). > > 10 years ago, having more than one cpu core was for expensive servers. > These days a laptop has 2 or 4 cores. ?It's time to get used to it. > The days of ever increasing clock frequencies are done. I saw a video from MS a year or 2 ago that talked about one of their small research lab trying to figure out how to parallelize code at the compiler level without multi-threading getting in the way of the programmer. The lady heading the lab was a manager type not a geek type, and her work did sound challenging to say the least since she has zero dedicated resource doing actual development work. I do know MS is was looking into harnessing multi-core either at the OS level or the compiler level, or a union of both. Their dilemma they were trying to avoid and why they were slow getting out of the gate was not to rush out with a solution to market and then handcuff the development community with a poorly thought out way to do this. They will probably do it in .NET with C# ... it seems C++ at MS doesn't get much hype and attention, which is a shame. The last good thing to come out of MS in term of C++ productivity was MFC and that was in 1992... 17 years ago, my goodness has it been that long. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://devmentor.org Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 14 23:29:15 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:29:15 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014194434.GK5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091014232915.GQ5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 06:48:40PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > You wrote C++ code the compiler barfed up =) .... than I am sure > you're glad you don't need to worry about working with STL and C++ > Template classes in C. I learned C++ before STL existed. I tried a practice ACM programming competition at waterloo, and at the time they only supported C. I spent a while learning which subset of C++ was legal in C. I clearly didn't do well at all on that particular practice event, but I mostly figured out what C supported. It didn't help that I really like the libg++ string support at the time. > I went the other way C to C++, took a while to get use to OO > programming. I don't think about it that much. possibly I see things > more easily as object due to the long-term C++ exposure? > > I remember when I worked at Nortel as a intern( when Nortel was the > place to be ). The server team wrote code in C only, they didn't > understand C++ and they feared it like no tomorrow. So I get it when > some people (not you) say they don't like C++ or any other OO > language. I think too many people jump on OO because it is a buzz word, not because it is a good solution. Problems often don't map neatly into class hierachies, so you end up having people force things into a tree anyhow with a few hacks here and there, and the result is a mess. In java it is mandetory it seems. Sometimes you really just have a chunk of code to run across a huge pile of data, and no objects at all. > We write C++ multi-thread code here at work and the last few places I > worked they wrote multi-threaded C++ code. I don't think OO gets in > the way of threading, just that some can't understand how to design > and code multi-threaded apps. If you gave them C in place of C++, they > would create the same multi-threaded mess only in C. I've written > multi-threaded code in C++ as well as multi-thread classes, not once > did I have to stop and say, damn this OO, it keep getting in the way, > let me drop down to C in this code module. Sure C isn't a solution either, but objects certainly don't help. They just make it worse. At least the way they seem to currently be implemented in C++. > I mentioned RapidMind here before on a different thread. They built a > multi-processor, multi-threaded framework for C++ programmers, it also > harness the power for GPUs to parallelizes methods, algorithms and the > code in general. > > http://www.rapidmind.net/technology.php > > "With RapidMind, developers continue to write code in standard C++ and > use their existing skills, tools and processes. The RapidMind platform > then parallelizes the application across multiple cores and manages > its execution." But they have to call the special library to do the heavy lifting in parallel. It is very neat stuff though, and looks very promissing for some types of work. > So C++ and threading can and do work very well. Seems like Rapidmind > is trying to let the platform take care of the parallel work to some > extent and not have it all fall on the programmer. Sure, you can write multithreaded code, but you have to explictly do it. There is promising indications that functional programming languages could automatically make parallel code for many operations without the programmer even having to think about it, other than having to learn to write code in a functional programming language (which may be a big enough problem in itself). > I saw a video from MS a year or 2 ago that talked about one of their > small research lab trying to figure out how to parallelize code at the > compiler level without multi-threading getting in the way of the > programmer. The lady heading the lab was a manager type not a geek > type, and her work did sound challenging to say the least since she > has zero dedicated resource doing actual development work. I do know > MS is was looking into harnessing multi-core either at the OS level or > the compiler level, or a union of both. Their dilemma they were trying > to avoid and why they were slow getting out of the gate was not to > rush out with a solution to market and then handcuff the development > community with a poorly thought out way to do this. MS certainly is doing work on it. F# is part of that work apparently. > They will probably do it in .NET with C# ... it seems C++ at MS > doesn't get much hype and attention, which is a shame. The last good > thing to come out of MS in term of C++ productivity was MFC and that > was in 1992... 17 years ago, my goodness has it been that long. These days the .net runtime is what 50MB? Makes the java runtime look tiny. Well I just saw this article a few minutes ago: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/342870/The_Desktop_Traffic_Jam?intsrc=print_latest Seemed at least somewhat relevant to the topic. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 00:52:37 2009 From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:52:37 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: References: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> <20091014200717.GP5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <32f6a8880910141752y2a2bc5c1r476356b544dc4b0f@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I'm kinda new in the field of knowing which sql applications are better, recently out of college. How does postgres handle hundreds of thousands to millions of transactions a second? How many transactions a second can postgres do? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 01:45:38 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:45:38 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200910142145.38073.amarjan@pobox.com> On October 14, 2009 03:39:34 pm Christopher Browne wrote: > A fair bit of my "language non-preference" is pretty similar to > Lennart's except that I'd swap C++ and Java, and would throw in that > UML seems worse to me than either C++ or Java. (And yes, I know it's > not used as an executable language.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable_UML -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 03:17:05 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:17:05 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <20091014232915.GQ5497-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014194434.GK5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091014232915.GQ5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD69431.3000202@gmail.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 06:48:40PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> You wrote C++ code the compiler barfed up =) .... than I am sure >> you're glad you don't need to worry about working with STL and C++ >> Template classes in C. > > I learned C++ before STL existed. I tried a practice ACM programming > competition at waterloo, and at the time they only supported C. I spent > a while learning which subset of C++ was legal in C. I clearly didn't > do well at all on that particular practice event, but I mostly figured > out what C supported. It didn't help that I really like the libg++ > string support at the time. > >> I went the other way C to C++, took a while to get use to OO >> programming. I don't think about it that much. possibly I see things >> more easily as object due to the long-term C++ exposure? >> >> I remember when I worked at Nortel as a intern( when Nortel was the >> place to be ). The server team wrote code in C only, they didn't >> understand C++ and they feared it like no tomorrow. So I get it when >> some people (not you) say they don't like C++ or any other OO >> language. > > I think too many people jump on OO because it is a buzz word, not because > it is a good solution. Problems often don't map neatly into class > hierachies, so you end up having people force things into a tree anyhow > with a few hacks here and there, and the result is a mess. In java it > is mandetory it seems. Sometimes you really just have a chunk of code > to run across a huge pile of data, and no objects at all. > >> We write C++ multi-thread code here at work and the last few places I >> worked they wrote multi-threaded C++ code. I don't think OO gets in >> the way of threading, just that some can't understand how to design >> and code multi-threaded apps. If you gave them C in place of C++, they >> would create the same multi-threaded mess only in C. I've written >> multi-threaded code in C++ as well as multi-thread classes, not once >> did I have to stop and say, damn this OO, it keep getting in the way, >> let me drop down to C in this code module. > > Sure C isn't a solution either, but objects certainly don't help. > They just make it worse. At least the way they seem to currently be > implemented in C++. > >> I mentioned RapidMind here before on a different thread. They built a >> multi-processor, multi-threaded framework for C++ programmers, it also >> harness the power for GPUs to parallelizes methods, algorithms and the >> code in general. >> >> http://www.rapidmind.net/technology.php >> >> "With RapidMind, developers continue to write code in standard C++ and >> use their existing skills, tools and processes. The RapidMind platform >> then parallelizes the application across multiple cores and manages >> its execution." > > But they have to call the special library to do the heavy lifting in > parallel. It is very neat stuff though, and looks very promissing for > some types of work. > >> So C++ and threading can and do work very well. Seems like Rapidmind >> is trying to let the platform take care of the parallel work to some >> extent and not have it all fall on the programmer. > > Sure, you can write multithreaded code, but you have to explictly do it. > There is promising indications that functional programming languages > could automatically make parallel code for many operations without the > programmer even having to think about it, other than having to learn > to write code in a functional programming language (which may be a big > enough problem in itself). > >> I saw a video from MS a year or 2 ago that talked about one of their >> small research lab trying to figure out how to parallelize code at the >> compiler level without multi-threading getting in the way of the >> programmer. The lady heading the lab was a manager type not a geek >> type, and her work did sound challenging to say the least since she >> has zero dedicated resource doing actual development work. I do know >> MS is was looking into harnessing multi-core either at the OS level or >> the compiler level, or a union of both. Their dilemma they were trying >> to avoid and why they were slow getting out of the gate was not to >> rush out with a solution to market and then handcuff the development >> community with a poorly thought out way to do this. > > MS certainly is doing work on it. F# is part of that work apparently. > >> They will probably do it in .NET with C# ... it seems C++ at MS >> doesn't get much hype and attention, which is a shame. The last good >> thing to come out of MS in term of C++ productivity was MFC and that >> was in 1992... 17 years ago, my goodness has it been that long. > > These days the .net runtime is what 50MB? Makes the java runtime > look tiny. > > Well I just saw this article a few minutes ago: > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/342870/The_Desktop_Traffic_Jam?intsrc=print_latest That was a stimulating read, I got to read up more on Win7 multi-core support and 'User Mode Scheduling', only because the company I work for happens to produce a virus scanner and this could greatly improve the performance of this product. > > Seemed at least somewhat relevant to the topic. > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 03:33:15 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:33:15 -0400 Subject: Washington Post: To bank safely online, use Linux In-Reply-To: <7fc604580910141245j7c589495qa41bf62925a02eaa-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7fc604580910141245j7c589495qa41bf62925a02eaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD697FB.5070905@gmail.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/10/avoid_windows_malware_bank_on.html > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > His articles are great reading. I was reading about what a money mule is and came upon this funny part of a mother talking about her son new job ===== But Kenneth's mother, Dixie Durastanti, said the Entrust Group told her son they had found his resume on Careerbuilder.com, and that Kenneth could make thousands of dollars a month working from home. "I warned him that the offer sounded too-good-to-be-true, but he didn't want to believe me," Ms. Durastanti told Security Fix. "As soon as my son told me they wanted his ID number and bank account number and wanted to put this large sum into his account, I told him 'You're in trouble, buddy.' " Not long after that conversation, she said, Downeast Energy's bank called, inquiring into the whereabouts of a $9,589 transfer that was sent to Kenneth on Sept. 2. Ms. Durastanti said when Kenneth went to wire the money via Western Union to individuals in Ukraine, he made a small but important error. "He put the money wire in his name and to his own name, and so the transfer came back to him. He ended up giving the money back to the bank," she said. "Thank goodness, I think his stupidity saved him. ===== http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/09/money_mules_carry_loot_for_org.html -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 03:41:43 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:41:43 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <20091013183733.GA26341-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200910142341.43764.amarjan@pobox.com> On October 13, 2009 02:37:33 pm Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Yes C is much easier to write efficient code in. C++ can (with a good > compiler if you can find one) be made to do efficient code as long as > you avoid most of its stupid features (which makes it mostly C anyhow). > Java is just hopeless. I suspect the main problem with java's performance > is that there are an awful lot of bad java programmers. It seems to > attract them (or perhaps create them). A good programmer could do a > much better job given a better language. Do you consider template metaprogramming to be "mostly C"? For instance there are portable numeric template libraries in C++ which are competitive with vendor-tuned BLAS, and much faster than anything you can create in C. Modern C++ isn't an easy (or pretty) language by any means, but it's come a long way since the early 90's. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 04:48:42 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:48:42 -0400 Subject: OT: Trusted cellphone unlocking? Message-ID: <7fc604580910142148w180ccf8esa4aab091209ed9ef@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, Is there someone trustworthy in Toronto at unlocking cellphones? The screen on my Rogers HTC 621 broke, and I hated the phone even before that happened so I don't want to repair it. It's my hope to replace it with one of the new Android phones coming down the pipe (specifically the HTC Hero, the Motorola Cliq or the LG GW620 -- all are quite nice). But that means a stopgap until then, which means either buying a cheap unlocked phone, or (preferably) unlocking one of the many castoff Fido phones hanging around the house. There's one here that I'd like to unlock if possible -- a Sont/Ericsson flip-phone -- and I was wondering if there are people on this list who have gone through the exercise. Who to trust? Who to avoid? Can I do this online? (I'm looking at UK-based FoneZone -- http://www.foneszone.co.uk/nav/unlock_code_pricelist.php). Any suggestions are welcome -- short of "just walk around Pacific Mall and you're bound to find something" -- which is what I'd probably do if I can't find some decent advice here. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 05:35:15 2009 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:35:15 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <200910142145.38073.amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <200910142145.38073.amarjan@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4AD6B493.2080808@rogers.com> Andrej Marjan wrote: > On October 14, 2009 03:39:34 pm Christopher Browne wrote: > >> A fair bit of my "language non-preference" is pretty similar to >> Lennart's except that I'd swap C++ and Java, and would throw in that >> UML seems worse to me than either C++ or Java. (And yes, I know it's >> not used as an executable language.) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable_UML Nobody (that I've heard of) has implemented a system that executes/interprets the xUML models directly, except maybe in model simulation/debug mode. The technique is to compile the model into a target archetype. The archetype may be implemented in C, C++, ADA, etc. The archetype can be re-used for any system that is modeled. The model elements get transformed, by code generation, into pieces that match up with the archetype code. Then the generated code is compiled and linked to yield the executable system. I'm not sure what you wanted to imply by the link - that UML is executable? I think the answer currently is: not without code generation of a carefully selected subset of UML. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 06:02:04 2009 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:02:04 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD6BADC.8010303@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > You'll find a number of us that haven't "taken the OO kool-aid." It's sad if your impression of OO is formulated from C++ and Java. OO was originally conceived of in Smalltalk, and in that environment, objects have a "liveness" characteristic that was a design goal. This is missing in a dead code environment like C++ and Java, where the code is just text in a file. In Smalltalk, objects are all available to be poked and prodded via inspectors. Even the class object itself can be inspected, just like any other object you've created. To pick up on an earlier critique of OO from someone else (namely that you have to create a class be able to start writing code), this idea has been explored in the Self language. In Self, there is no distinction between classes and non-classes. Everything is just a thing with slots to hold other things. What I've been told is that you start out creating new objects without thinking about classes as you develop your system, and by the time you've finished re-factoring and such, you end up with some objects that pretty much function like classes. These class-like objects end up holding the behaviour that's common for a group of objects. There can still be some objects that don't have an associated class-like object though. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 06:25:45 2009 From: andrew-2KHxOkysSnqmy7d5DmSz6TlRY1/6cnIP at public.gmane.org (Andrew Cowie) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:25:45 +1100 Subject: Documentation Licensing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1255587945.2766.44.camel@moonglow> On Wed, 2009-10-14 at 03:30 -0400, Jason Carson wrote: > All I want is that someone can take my documentation and modify it for > commercial or non commercial purposes provided the modified work is also > licensed under the same license and remains free. The relevant question isn't whether you want to enable the same licence terms to apply (they will, regardless), but whether you want it to be copyleft (ie GPL, CC-BY-SA) or not. "Remains free [no matter what]" is a lay interpretation of what copyleft means, but of course the GPL requirement (for instance) to share your source code is interpreted by some to be less than ideal for commercial entities. That, of course, is nonsense (else IBM couldn't be such a major contributor to the Linux kernel, for one example amongst thousands), but "commercial use" in the software context is usually taken to imply "close source proprietary use" which is where copyleft is not as appealing. Anyway, there was a fairly good recent discussion on the topic of GFDL vs CC (vs GPL) on the mailing list of the Bazaar version control system not too long ago. Someone was asking bzr to relicence its documentation CC. As theirs is a community with quite a number of different interests and participants ? both corporate and not ? representing a huge range of views, the discussion was wide ranging and well informed. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2009q3/062329.html I tend to side with Robert Collins on this one: a) there is no reason for a project's documentation not to be under the GPL [if the software itself is], and b) having one (and only one) licence across a project is vitally important; if you try to have multiple (especially if there are multiple incompatible) licences then all you're doing is calling down a perpetual world of hurt in the years to come. AfC Sydney -- Andrew Frederick Cowie Operational Dynamics is an operations and engineering consultancy focusing on IT strategy, organizational architecture, systems review, and effective procedures for change management: enabling successful deployment of mission critical information technology in enterprises, worldwide. http://www.operationaldynamics.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 07:25:36 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:25:36 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <4AD6BADC.8010303-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD6BADC.8010303@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4AD6CE70.3030207@gmail.com> Yanni Chiu wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: >> You'll find a number of us that haven't "taken the OO kool-aid." > > It's sad if your impression of OO is formulated from C++ and Java. OO > was originally conceived of in Smalltalk, and in that environment, > objects have a "liveness" characteristic that was a design goal. This is > missing in a dead code environment like C++ and Java, where the code is > just text in a file. In Smalltalk, objects are all available to be poked > and prodded via inspectors. Even the class object itself can be > inspected, just like any other object you've created. This smalltalk environment sounds similar to the Ruby's Interactive shell (IRB). As a C++ developer that is why I think I love Ruby, first because it's truly OO, everything is an object. Secondly it's elegant and I can write fewer lines of code in Ruby vs C++ and get a lot more done, less error prone, easier to maintain and read(assuming less/shorter code in better). With the Ruby Interactive shell, one can inspect objects, classes, and play with them in a environment that allows for quick testing of ideas, learning Ruby or a new module/library (Ruby Gem) and building rapid prototypes. Classes are never closed in Ruby so you can define, add or remove methods. This is really powerful, because if I want to redefine a method add a new one then I don't need to worry about having to redeclare the entire static class code like you would have to in a language like C++. I just declare the class with the new stuff and it gets added on to what was already there in the IRB or a running state. I can also inject code from modules into the class with a technique called mixin, so if I want add Enumeration, I inject the module into my class and I have enumeration support and just need to declare a single method which is called 'each'. This is one way Ruby gets around the issue of multiple inheritance since it's a single inheritance class. I can even load static code and make it come alive and interact with it inside the IRB. The neat thing about Ruby vs C++ is that I don't need to compile and link my code, I just type and run. Also if I want to do some heavy lifting I can easily call my C++ code from Ruby. "Tab beautified" Python has a similar test environment. > To pick up on an earlier critique of OO from someone else (namely that > you have to create a class be able to start writing code), this idea has > been explored in the Self language. In Self, there is no distinction > between classes and non-classes. Everything is just a thing with slots > to hold other things. What I've been told is that you start out creating > new objects without thinking about classes as you develop your system, > and by the time you've finished re-factoring and such, you end up with > some objects that pretty much function like classes. These class-like > objects end up holding the behaviour that's common for a group of > objects. There can still be some objects that don't have an associated > class-like object though. > There is a concept like this in Ruby where you create an object and then add methods and data to it in a dynamica running state. With cool things like reflection using proc objects and lamda functions, you can do some really cool stuff passing code-blocks to objects and methods and having those code-blokes get executed later, this is more powerful than C/C++ function pointers and callbacks, and much simpler to do. Ruby is a powerful yet beautiful dynamic OO script language, dynamic in the true sense of the word. Python has similar features, but not everything is treated as an object from what I assume. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 07:35:53 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:35:53 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] Message-ID: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> Thinking of upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10, maybe after a month it's out in the wild. Note sure what they've done to make it better, anyone have any ideas? -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Langasek Subject: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10 Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:28:09 -0700 Size: 5086 URL: From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 10:04:10 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:04:10 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880910141752y2a2bc5c1r476356b544dc4b0f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> <20091014200717.GP5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880910141752y2a2bc5c1r476356b544dc4b0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910150304j31b99565q56e5a3100f30c436@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Dave Germiquet wrote: > Hi, > > I'm kinda new in the field of knowing which sql applications are > better, recently out of college. > > How does postgres handle hundreds of thousands to millions of > transactions a second? > > It doesn't ... > How many transactions a second can postgres do? > Transactions per second come down to roughly this equation .. Filesystem I/O speed (MB/s) / transaction size (MB) So the answer to your question is "it depends on the hardware that it is installed on". Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 11:59:29 2009 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 08:59:29 -0300 Subject: [TLUG] Applause For Finland: First Country To Make Broadband Access A Legal Right Message-ID: <1089a0320910150459l71b12024je88d456d83d26355@mail.gmail.com> That's really cool.. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/14/applause-for-finland-first-country-to-make-broadband-access-a-legal-right/ cheers --- - ?v? Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha / Kalib - /(_)\ ITIL V3 Foundation Certified | Certified Scrum Master - ^ ^ Usu?rio Linux #407564 / Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 - GNU-Linux - Livre, Poderoso e Seguro - TUX-CE Member - www.tux-ce.org - Archlinux-br Developer Team - http://archlinux-br.org - KDE Brasil Member - TLUG Member - Toronto Linux User Group - http://www.marcelocavalcante.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jthiele-bux5bdj6uGJBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 12:06:56 2009 From: jthiele-bux5bdj6uGJBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Jon Thiele) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 08:06:56 -0400 Subject: [TLUG] Applause For Finland: First Country To Make Broadband Access A Legal Right In-Reply-To: <1089a0320910150459l71b12024je88d456d83d26355-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1089a0320910150459l71b12024je88d456d83d26355@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3B6B5972E9FC49C2AAA70860D80D44F1@plex06> Cool or not, I see that there isn?t any mention on how they are going to pay for this. Obviously, someone has to _____ From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Marcelo Cavalcante Sent: 15-Oct-09 7:59 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: [TLUG]: [TLUG] Applause For Finland: First Country To Make Broadband Access A Legal Right That's really cool.. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/14/applause-for-finland-first-country-to-m ake-broadband-access-a-legal-right/ cheers --- - ?v? Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha / Kalib - /(_)\ ITIL V3 Foundation Certified | Certified Scrum Master - ^ ^ Usu?rio Linux #407564 / Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 - GNU-Linux - Livre, Poderoso e Seguro - TUX-CE Member - www.tux-ce.org - Archlinux-br Developer Team - http://archlinux-br.org - KDE Brasil Member - TLUG Member - Toronto Linux User Group - http://www.marcelocavalcante.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 12:21:36 2009 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:21:36 -0300 Subject: [TLUG] Applause For Finland: First Country To Make Broadband Access A Legal Right In-Reply-To: <3B6B5972E9FC49C2AAA70860D80D44F1@plex06> References: <1089a0320910150459l71b12024je88d456d83d26355@mail.gmail.com> <3B6B5972E9FC49C2AAA70860D80D44F1@plex06> Message-ID: <1089a0320910150521x44e9fc5fs56b32a6505fd81df@mail.gmail.com> Well, I don't care too much about this specific issue. They pay taxes, right? So.. for sure, it wouldn't be sooooo expansive for the government to make it works. In fact, many other countries in Europe or even here, in Brazil, we can see many people discuting about this kind of initiative. In my city, Fortaleza - Brazil, we do already have some projects working with BPL (Broadband Over Power Lines). It's already working in some pilot projects. This kind of thing is amazing and for sure will reduce the cost of connectivity and improve the access. Anyway.. I think it's a good oportunity to open "other" minds. ;] cheers --- - ?v? Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha / Kalib - /(_)\ ITIL V3 Foundation Certified | Certified Scrum Master - ^ ^ Usu?rio Linux #407564 / Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 - GNU-Linux - Livre, Poderoso e Seguro - TUX-CE Member - www.tux-ce.org - Archlinux-br Developer Team - http://archlinux-br.org - KDE Brasil Member - TLUG Member - Toronto Linux User Group - http://www.marcelocavalcante.net On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Jon Thiele wrote: > > > Cool or not, I see that there isn?t any mention on how they are going to > pay for this. Obviously, someone has to? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] *On Behalf Of *Marcelo > Cavalcante > *Sent:* 15-Oct-09 7:59 AM > *To:* tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > *Subject:* [TLUG]: [TLUG] Applause For Finland: First Country To Make > Broadband Access A Legal Right > > > > That's really cool.. > > > > > http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/14/applause-for-finland-first-country-to-make-broadband-access-a-legal-right/ > > > > cheers > --- > - ?v? Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha / Kalib > - /(_)\ ITIL V3 Foundation Certified | Certified Scrum Master > - ^ ^ Usu?rio Linux #407564 / Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 > - GNU-Linux - Livre, Poderoso e Seguro > - TUX-CE Member - www.tux-ce.org > - Archlinux-br Developer Team - http://archlinux-br.org > - KDE Brasil Member > - TLUG Member - Toronto Linux User Group > - http://www.marcelocavalcante.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 12:50:58 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 08:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TLUG] Applause For Finland: First Country To Make Broadband Access A Legal Right In-Reply-To: <1089a0320910150521x44e9fc5fs56b32a6505fd81df-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1089a0320910150459l71b12024je88d456d83d26355@mail.gmail.com> <3B6B5972E9FC49C2AAA70860D80D44F1@plex06> <1089a0320910150521x44e9fc5fs56b32a6505fd81df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2009, Marcelo Cavalcante wrote: > Well, I don't care too much about this specific issue. > They pay taxes, right? So.. for sure, it wouldn't be sooooo expansive for > the government to make it works. > In fact, many other countries in Europe or even here, in Brazil, we can see > many people discuting about this kind of initiative. I don't think it has made headlines overseas but 90% of Aussies will have 100Mb/s to their door within 8 years. Work started a few months ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadband_Network_(Australia) Rob (who is currently in Australia) -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy http://www.practicalsysadmin.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 13:56:48 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:56:48 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910150304j31b99565q56e5a3100f30c436-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091013162146.GY26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> <20091014200717.GP5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880910141752y2a2bc5c1r476356b544dc4b0f@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910150304j31b99565q56e5a3100f30c436@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Dave Cramer wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Dave Germiquet > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm kinda new in the field of knowing which sql applications are >> better, recently out of college. >> >> How does postgres handle hundreds of thousands to millions of >> transactions a second? >> > It doesn't ... > >> >> How many transactions a second can postgres do? > > Transactions per second come down to roughly this equation .. Filesystem I/O > speed (MB/s) / transaction size (MB) > > So the answer to your question is "it depends on the hardware that it is > installed on". Well, from a requirement of "millions of transactions per second," we can infer some interesting things... For it to be economically viable to track a million transactions per second, each one must have an economic value of at *least* a few cents. If the value isn't that high, then it is hardly necessary to have each be an individual transaction. Therefore, the system, in coping with multiple billions of transactions per hour, and on the order of trillions per week, must have, somewhere, an economic input of on the order of ten billion dollars per month, or of something like $100B per year. Out of a budget of $100B, one can be fairly certain to have enough money to pay someone to do a proper professional study of this. Scale that down by a factor of 1000 and it's still a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars, plenty enough to pay for a proper study. The main commercial application area that looks like this is telecom, where there is a need to track some information about each call session, and where (indeed) each call costs some pennies. If someone has an application that genuinely this strenuous in its requirements, they should be looking for real professional assistance, asking for recommendations as to who they might hire to do proper analysis, as opposed to asking vague questions on a public mailing list. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Jonathan Swift - "May you live every day of your life." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jonathan_swift.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 13:59:39 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:59:39 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <4AD6D0D9.2010804-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Rajinder Yadav ????????: > Thinking of upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10, maybe after a month it's out in > the wild. Note sure what they've done to make it better, anyone have any > ideas? Oddly enough, I upgraded to it last night (beta, obviously). So far, I like! It's not bug free... I managed to crash it just after installing it by changing the hostname, but a reboot fixed it. I already submitted a bug report on that. A few things I've noticed already; - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it highlights the part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. - The default font size in terminals, and I mean outside of X, is much smaller. This means that when you do ctrl+alt+f[1-6], you have MUCH more screen space to work with. This is probably one of my favourite changes. - Gnome's wallpaper function now supports a set of backgrounds you can have cycle over time. And not just all the ones you've added, you can created different sets to use, or use normal static ones. - Input method switching now is done by ctrl+space instead of shift+space. This is long over due! For example, if I was trying to write a SQL query, I have a habit of capitalizing command words. I'd often switch to kana input when I didn't want to. That won't happen any more. - Input method switching now works in KDE apps launched in Gnome! I often use Kate and, until now, would have to write whatever in gedit or the shell and then copy/paste it into Kate. This isn't needed any more. - Kate not has predictive text complete pop-ups. So far, I don't find it gets in the way, and it seems to use some sort of learning because it brings up chunks of text I've typed before that would be in no dictionary. I've not made use of this yet, but I think I can see myself using it soon. - They've changed their theme to a darker brown. This is a small thing, but it is refreshing. - They dropped Pidgin for Empathy as the default IM client. I've not used it yet though, I just installed pidgin. If you or anyone else is interested, I'll post more as I get more used to it. In short though: I like! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 14:06:41 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:06:41 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <4AD6BADC.8010303-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD6BADC.8010303@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091015140641.GB32576@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 02:02:04AM -0400, Yanni Chiu wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: >> You'll find a number of us that haven't "taken the OO kool-aid." > > It's sad if your impression of OO is formulated from C++ and Java. OO > was originally conceived of in Smalltalk, and in that environment, > objects have a "liveness" characteristic that was a design goal. This is > missing in a dead code environment like C++ and Java, where the code is > just text in a file. In Smalltalk, objects are all available to be poked > and prodded via inspectors. Even the class object itself can be > inspected, just like any other object you've created. Actually simula-67 had objects and classes and all that long before smalltalk existed. It is considered the first OO language. > To pick up on an earlier critique of OO from someone else (namely that > you have to create a class be able to start writing code), this idea has > been explored in the Self language. In Self, there is no distinction > between classes and non-classes. Everything is just a thing with slots > to hold other things. What I've been told is that you start out creating > new objects without thinking about classes as you develop your system, > and by the time you've finished re-factoring and such, you end up with > some objects that pretty much function like classes. These class-like > objects end up holding the behaviour that's common for a group of > objects. There can still be some objects that don't have an associated > class-like object though. But I don't want everything to be an object. It doesn't fit a lot of problems well at all. Objects can be useful tools (although far less often than people try to use them). They should not be required in a language. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 14:09:26 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:09:26 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <200910142341.43764.amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <99a6c38f0910091535j6b7990b4tf8eec6c3046f8c78@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <200910142341.43764.amarjan@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20091015140926.GC32576@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:41:43PM -0400, Andrej Marjan wrote: > Do you consider template metaprogramming to be "mostly C"? For instance there > are portable numeric template libraries in C++ which are competitive with > vendor-tuned BLAS, and much faster than anything you can create in C. Well than _I_ can write in C yes. Than anyone can write in C, no. Especially given you could convert C++ to C (not very readable C, but still C). And of course if g++ is your compiler, I highly doubt it will be anywhere near BLAS in performance. > Modern C++ isn't an easy (or pretty) language by any means, but it's come a > long way since the early 90's. Yeah STL certainly made it bloated enough. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 14:10:01 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:10:01 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <4AD6BADC.8010303-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD6BADC.8010303@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:02 AM, Yanni Chiu wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: >> >> You'll find a number of us that haven't "taken the OO kool-aid." > > It's sad if your impression of OO is formulated from C++ and Java. OO was > originally conceived of in Smalltalk, and in that environment, objects have > a "liveness" characteristic that was a design goal. By the way, objects were introduced in Simula-67, predating Smalltalk by about 4 years. "The first version, known as Smalltalk-71, was created in a few mornings on a bet that a programming language based on the idea of message passing inspired by Simula could be implemented in "a page of code." -- Wikipedia on Smalltalk I remember the 1981 Byte magazine with the balloon; didn't see C++ until the late '80s, so my impression is certainly *not* formulated from that. I have a fair bit of derision for the common conception that OO basically means the object models of C++ or Java - my thinking is rather more influenced by CLOS... In any case, *which* object model is much less at issue, to my mind, than the frequent slavish following of the notion that "you MUST have an object model!!!" To my mind, OO is just a programming tool, and one that frequently *less* useful than other programming paradigms. Wikipedia has a pretty good list of "programming paradigms": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm OO doesn't quite even fit onto that list; it's not sufficiently coherently defined (witness that every language that comes along just about has another object model!) -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Samuel Goldwyn - "I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/samuel_goldwyn.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 14:48:22 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:48:22 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD6BADC.8010303@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091015144822.GD32576@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 10:10:01AM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote: > By the way, objects were introduced in Simula-67, predating Smalltalk > by about 4 years. > > "The first version, known as Smalltalk-71, was created in a few > mornings on a bet that a programming language based on the idea of > message passing inspired by Simula could be implemented in "a page of > code." -- Wikipedia on Smalltalk > > I remember the 1981 Byte magazine with the balloon; didn't see C++ > until the late '80s, so my impression is certainly *not* formulated > from that. > > I have a fair bit of derision for the common conception that OO > basically means the object models of C++ or Java - my thinking is > rather more influenced by CLOS... I certainly think simula has a better model than C++, and to my knowledge java follows C++'s model to a large extent. > In any case, *which* object model is much less at issue, to my mind, > than the frequent slavish following of the notion that "you MUST have > an object model!!!" > > To my mind, OO is just a programming tool, and one that frequently > *less* useful than other programming paradigms. Pretty much. I have seen very well done OO designs for GUI frameworks that work very well. > Wikipedia has a pretty good list of "programming paradigms": > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm > > OO doesn't quite even fit onto that list; it's not sufficiently > coherently defined (witness that every language that comes along just > about has another object model!) It certainly varries a lot. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 14:56:49 2009 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:56:49 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <4AD6D0D9.2010804-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD73831.20209@golden.net> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Thinking of upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10, maybe after a month it's out in > the wild. Note sure what they've done to make it better, anyone have > any ideas? > > One possible glitch you may run into is pulse audio. I'm on 9.1 on 2 boxes. The clean install box gave me grief with sound especially with flash video. The other box was an upgrade and it went smoothly. I can't comment much on any improvements. Maybe eye candy a little but I turn that off. John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 15:10:23 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:10:23 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <4AD73831.20209-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD73831.20209@golden.net> Message-ID: <4AD73B5F.7060707@utoronto.ca> John Myshrall wrote: > Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> Thinking of upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10, maybe after a month it's out in >> the wild. Note sure what they've done to make it better, anyone have >> any ideas? >> >> > One possible glitch you may run into is pulse audio. I'm on 9.1 on 2 > boxes. The clean install box gave me grief with sound especially with > flash video. The other box was an upgrade and it went smoothly. I can't > comment much on any improvements. Maybe eye candy a little but I turn > that off. Pulseaudio is not a feature, it is a bug. I despise it. It is slow and buggy, and even stutters on quad core machines. That just shouldn't be the case. OSS4 is out and is available, I find it works very well on my Debian Squeeze systems (KDE/Gnome) try it out: http://developer.opensound.com Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 15:54:02 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:54:02 -0400 Subject: blacklist checks Message-ID: <4AD7459A.1090505@tmis.ca> I got some clients who spam. (some deliberate, some not) Not crazy amounts, but enough to get on some blacklists. Instead of me manually testing IPs or perhaps entire blocks, against blacklists, is there some web based tool that can do this for me? And email me daily? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 16:27:01 2009 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:27:01 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD6BADC.8010303@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4AD74D55.5080608@rogers.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:02 AM, Yanni Chiu wrote: >> ... OO was originally conceived of in Smalltalk ... > > By the way, objects were introduced in Simula-67, predating Smalltalk > by about 4 years. > > "The first version, known as Smalltalk-71, was created in a few > mornings on a bet that a programming language based on the idea of > message passing inspired by Simula could be implemented in "a page of > code." -- Wikipedia on Smalltalk Yes, Simula is one of the languages that gave the inventors inspiration. But the term "object-oriented programming" was coined by the the inventors of Smalltalk. -- Wikipedia on Alan Kay So the quibble is "Objects come from Simula" vs. "object-oriented, i.e. OO, comes from Smalltalk". > To my mind, OO is just a programming tool, and one that frequently > *less* useful than other programming paradigms. > > Wikipedia has a pretty good list of "programming paradigms": > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm > > OO doesn't quite even fit onto that list; it's not sufficiently > coherently defined (witness that every language that comes along just > about has another object model!) I can see what you're getting at. I think there needs to be a distinction made between OOP and OOA -- OO-programming vs. OO-analysis. If you analyze your problem and come up with an object-oriented solution, where you determine relevant classes and their relationships and behaviours, then you have an OOA of your solution. You can implement that solution using any language, even C. You could define a C-struct for each analysis class, and use an argument passing and naming convention to connect loose C-functions to the structs. However, if you target C++, then you can choose the class facilities provided by the C++ language. So I agree, OO Analysis is just one of many approaches (paradigms) that can be used to formulate a solution. For some problems, OOA may be a poor fit, and in those cases, if you're forced to use and OOP (that was designed to make analysis objects easy to implement), then it may seem like the language is fighting against you. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 16:43:13 2009 From: yanni-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Yanni Chiu) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:43:13 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <4AD6CE70.3030207-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013183733.GA26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD54A3E.40301@rogers.com> <20091014135558.GD5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E2A3.2030900@moores.ca> <20091014144500.GG5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD5E573.2070707@moores.ca> <20091014150557.GI5497@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD6BADC.8010303@rogers.com> <4AD6CE70.3030207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD75121.6080007@rogers.com> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > This smalltalk environment sounds similar to the Ruby's Interactive > shell (IRB). It's well known in the Smalltalk community that Ruby is really Smalltalk with a different syntax, along with a re-introduction of files to store dead code. However, it seems that these two factors are crucial for programmers who've grown up with C-like function call syntax, and a file edit/compile/execute mentality. Another feature "lost" was a native windowing interface. The Smalltalk GUI is what Steve Jobs saw when he visited Xerox PARC, then went off to create Apple Computer. It's kind of sad that Java/Eclipse and Ruby/IRB are re-inventing the wheel. -- Yanni -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 17:22:03 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:22:03 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <4AD72ACB.9070405-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Rajinder Yadav ????????: >> >> Thinking of upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10, maybe after a month it's out in the >> wild. Note sure what they've done to make it better, anyone have any ideas? > > Oddly enough, I upgraded to it last night (beta, obviously). So far, I like! > It's not bug free... I managed to crash it just after installing it by > changing the hostname, but a reboot fixed it. I already submitted a bug > report on that. > > A few things I've noticed already; > > - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it highlights > the part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. > > - The default font size in terminals, and I mean outside of X, is much > smaller. This means that when you do ctrl+alt+f[1-6], you have MUCH more > screen space to work with. This is probably one of my favourite changes. > > - Gnome's wallpaper function now supports a set of backgrounds you can have > cycle over time. And not just all the ones you've added, you can created > different sets to use, or use normal static ones. > > - Input method switching now is done by ctrl+space instead of shift+space. > This is long over due! For example, if I was trying to write a SQL query, I > have a habit of capitalizing command words. I'd often switch to kana input > when I didn't want to. That won't happen any more. > > - Input method switching now works in KDE apps launched in Gnome! I often > use Kate and, until now, would have to write whatever in gedit or the shell > and then copy/paste it into Kate. This isn't needed any more. > > - Kate not has predictive text complete pop-ups. So far, I don't find it > gets in the way, and it seems to use some sort of learning because it brings > up chunks of text I've typed before that would be in no dictionary. I've not > made use of this yet, but I think I can see myself using it soon. > > - They've changed their theme to a darker brown. This is a small thing, but > it is refreshing. > > - They dropped Pidgin for Empathy as the default IM client. I've not used it > yet though, I just installed pidgin. > > If you or anyone else is interested, I'll post more as I get more used to > it. In short though: > > I like! > > Madi Great update Madi, ya please keep me informed, maybe do another follow up post in 2 weeks when the final release is out, and let us know it some of the bugs you found have been plugged. I stopped using kate for bluefish early on, not sure if I will go back to kate with the new changes, but will have a look. I use KDE, but wondering what the new xfce is like, have you tired taking that for a spin? I will ping you if you forget. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://devmentor.org Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 17:58:58 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:58:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <4AD72ACB.9070405-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Message-ID: | From: Madison Kelly | A few things I've noticed already; Thanks for the update. I run Ubuntu on some of my systems and I salvishly update when a new version seems safe. Thanks for being one of the testers! | - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it highlights the | part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. How could it do that without violating normal UNIX abstractions?? | - The default font size in terminals, and I mean outside of X, is much | smaller. This means that when you do ctrl+alt+f[1-6], you have MUCH more | screen space to work with. This is probably one of my favourite changes. That's been possible, I think, with a kernel parameter (i.e. vga=something in the kernel line in the grub config file /boot/grub/menu.lst). I don't do this so I'm not sure if this has changed in the last decade. I do usually scrape off the kernel parameters I don't like, splash and quiet. | - Input method switching now is done by ctrl+space instead of shift+space. | This is long over due! For example, if I was trying to write a SQL query, I | have a habit of capitalizing command words. I'd often switch to kana input | when I didn't want to. That won't happen any more. Yikes! My fingers have been using CTRL-SPACE for NUL since 1982 (the EMACS set-mark command). They are not going to be happy. | - They dropped Pidgin for Empathy as the default IM client. I've not used it | yet though, I just installed pidgin. I'm kind of used to Pidgin for the very few times I use it. LICQ used to be fine. Is Empathy better or just different? This is some Gnome issue, I guess. | If you or anyone else is interested, I'll post more as I get more used to | it. In short though: I'm interested. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 17:59:58 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:59:58 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4AD7631E.8080503@alteeve.com> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Great update Madi, ya please keep me informed, maybe do another follow > up post in 2 weeks when the final release is out, and let us know it > some of the bugs you found have been plugged. > > I stopped using kate for bluefish early on, not sure if I will go back > to kate with the new changes, but will have a look. I like Kate because it has "just enough" features without being clutering. At least, this is my opinion. > I use KDE, but wondering what the new xfce is like, have you tired > taking that for a spin? Nope. Never had enough of an issue with Gnome to feel the need to try others. Though sometimes I pine for Enlightenment, for naustalgia's sake. :P > I will ping you if you forget. Please do! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 18:07:58 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:07:58 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4AD764FE.9090203@alteeve.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Madison Kelly > > | A few things I've noticed already; > > Thanks for the update. > > I run Ubuntu on some of my systems and I salvishly update when a new > version seems safe. Thanks for being one of the testers! Figured it's time I contribute. :) > | - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it highlights the > | part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. > > How could it do that without violating normal UNIX abstractions?? No idea, though I think it might be a Gnome Terminal thing. I've noticed it doesn't highlight in one of the "normal" terminals (a-la ctrl+alt+f[1-6]). > | - The default font size in terminals, and I mean outside of X, is much > | smaller. This means that when you do ctrl+alt+f[1-6], you have MUCH more > | screen space to work with. This is probably one of my favourite changes. > > That's been possible, I think, with a kernel parameter (i.e. > vga=something in the kernel line in the grub config file > /boot/grub/menu.lst). I don't do this so I'm not sure if this has > changed in the last decade. > > I do usually scrape off the kernel parameters I don't like, splash and > quiet. I knew you could, but it's nice to have it done by default now. I'm curious though how it would handle low-resolution screens... Modern screens can report their capabilities so perhaps this setting is only enabled when it can confirm the screen type? By the way, the new size (on my 1440x900 screen) is 180x56. > | - Input method switching now is done by ctrl+space instead of shift+space. > | This is long over due! For example, if I was trying to write a SQL query, I > | have a habit of capitalizing command words. I'd often switch to kana input > | when I didn't want to. That won't happen any more. > > Yikes! My fingers have been using CTRL-SPACE for NUL since 1982 (the > EMACS set-mark command). They are not going to be happy. Lol! It is still configurable to something else. :) Poor emacs people... Should use vim! (I keed!) > | - They dropped Pidgin for Empathy as the default IM client. I've not used it > | yet though, I just installed pidgin. > > I'm kind of used to Pidgin for the very few times I use it. LICQ used > to be fine. Is Empathy better or just different? This is some Gnome > issue, I guess. No idea, haven't tried it yet. Just noted the difference. > | If you or anyone else is interested, I'll post more as I get more used to > | it. In short though: > > I'm interested. Will do then! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 18:09:07 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:09:07 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20091015180907.GE32576@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 01:58:58PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Madison Kelly > > | A few things I've noticed already; > > Thanks for the update. > > I run Ubuntu on some of my systems and I salvishly update when a new > version seems safe. Thanks for being one of the testers! > > | - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it highlights the > | part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. > > How could it do that without violating normal UNIX abstractions?? Only do it if output is a tty? ls --color=auto does the same thing. If output is a tty, colour it, and if it is a pipe or a file, then don't touch it. > That's been possible, I think, with a kernel parameter (i.e. > vga=something in the kernel line in the grub config file > /boot/grub/menu.lst). I don't do this so I'm not sure if this has > changed in the last decade. > > I do usually scrape off the kernel parameters I don't like, splash and > quiet. Some X drivers have also at times been broken whenever the console was anything other than 80x25, although I don't know if that is the case anymore. > | - Input method switching now is done by ctrl+space instead of shift+space. > | This is long over due! For example, if I was trying to write a SQL query, I > | have a habit of capitalizing command words. I'd often switch to kana input > | when I didn't want to. That won't happen any more. > > Yikes! My fingers have been using CTRL-SPACE for NUL since 1982 (the > EMACS set-mark command). They are not going to be happy. Anytime someone tries to add a short cut, they break something. I have seen people map alt+F# to desktop switching. Rather annoying given alt+f2 seems rather universally to be 'run program'. When you are used to that, any other use is annoying. Or mapping a function key to activate something, when that is a key lots of applications can use for their own needs. Tricky business indeed. > I'm kind of used to Pidgin for the very few times I use it. LICQ used > to be fine. Is Empathy better or just different? This is some Gnome > issue, I guess. I have been happy with pidgin. I hadn't heard of Empathy before. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vic-2vUEnoANFF8dnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 18:08:44 2009 From: vic-2vUEnoANFF8dnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org (Vic Gedris) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:08:44 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <9858fafd0910151108v59c9b98do473be147625d7cf9@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 1:58 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Madison Kelly > > | - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it highlights the > | part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. > > How could it do that without violating normal UNIX abstractions?? This has been around for a long time. Maybe Ubuntu is now just making it a default by aliasing grep to "grep --color" or setting the GREP_COLOR environment variable? man grep Not sure it violates any common usage. When you pipe it, the color goes away etc. Definitely a nice feature...makes reading output easier. -Vic -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 18:17:53 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:17:53 -0400 Subject: blacklist fascists In-Reply-To: <4AD7459A.1090505-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD7459A.1090505@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <4AD76751.9090207@tmis.ca> What are the top 5 RBL fascists ? Does Outblaze make the top 5 ? teddy mills wrote: > > I got some clients who spam. (some deliberate, some not) > Not crazy amounts, but enough to get on some blacklists. > > Instead of me manually testing IPs or perhaps entire blocks, > against blacklists, is there some web based tool that can do > this for me? > > And email me daily? > > > > > > > > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 18:18:00 2009 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Madison Kelly > > | A few things I've noticed already; > > Thanks for the update. > > I run Ubuntu on some of my systems and I salvishly update when a new > version seems safe. Thanks for being one of the testers! > > | - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it highlights the > | part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. > > How could it do that without violating normal UNIX abstractions?? GNU grep has the --color option which provides that. Perhaps Ubuntu has the stupid and dangerous practice of installing aliases for standard commands? -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 18:27:30 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:27:30 -0400 Subject: blacklist checks In-Reply-To: <4AD7459A.1090505-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD7459A.1090505@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <4AD76992.10505@moores.ca> You mean like this? http://www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx teddy mills wrote: > > I got some clients who spam. (some deliberate, some not) > Not crazy amounts, but enough to get on some blacklists. > > Instead of me manually testing IPs or perhaps entire blocks, > against blacklists, is there some web based tool that can do > this for me? > > And email me daily? > > > > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 18:35:21 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:35:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <9858fafd0910151108v59c9b98do473be147625d7cf9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> <9858fafd0910151108v59c9b98do473be147625d7cf9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Vic Gedris | | On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 1:58 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > | From: Madison Kelly | > | > | - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it highlights the | > | part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. | > | > How could it do that without violating normal UNIX abstractions?? | | This has been around for a long time. Maybe Ubuntu is now just making | it a default by aliasing grep to "grep --color" or setting the | GREP_COLOR environment variable? man grep | | Not sure it violates any common usage. When you pipe it, the color | goes away etc. Sorry, I misread what Madi said. I almost always pipe the output of grep to less and less highlights search strings. So I pictured grep somehow telling less what to highlight. In other words: I was confused. I don't actually like automatic the only automatic colouring I notice: in ls. It makes some things hard to read on some displays. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 18:39:02 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:39:02 -0400 Subject: blacklist checks In-Reply-To: <4AD76992.10505-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD7459A.1090505@tmis.ca> <4AD76992.10505@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4AD76C46.2040105@tmis.ca> Yes, I know of mtoolbox.com There are a few others like this one as well. I need something to daily test the ips/blocks for me, and email me the results. Darryl Moore wrote: > You mean like this? > http://www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx > > teddy mills wrote: >> I got some clients who spam. (some deliberate, some not) >> Not crazy amounts, but enough to get on some blacklists. >> >> Instead of me manually testing IPs or perhaps entire blocks, >> against blacklists, is there some web based tool that can do >> this for me? >> >> And email me daily? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 19:31:56 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:31:56 -0400 Subject: blacklist checks In-Reply-To: <4AD76C46.2040105-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD7459A.1090505@tmis.ca> <4AD76992.10505@moores.ca> <4AD76C46.2040105@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <4AD778AC.3080700@moores.ca> Ah yes, well if you have money you can go here: http://www.mailworkz.com/products/blacklistmonitor.htm If not you can write your own, and this might get you started: http://www.nabble.com/rbl.monitor---warn-if-mailservers-are-in-a-blacklist-td11418518.html Google is your friend. cheers, darryl teddy mills wrote: > > Yes, I know of mtoolbox.com > There are a few others like this one as well. > > I need something to daily test the ips/blocks for me, > and email me the results. > > > > > Darryl Moore wrote: >> You mean like this? >> http://www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx >> >> teddy mills wrote: >>> I got some clients who spam. (some deliberate, some not) >>> Not crazy amounts, but enough to get on some blacklists. >>> >>> Instead of me manually testing IPs or perhaps entire blocks, >>> against blacklists, is there some web based tool that can do >>> this for me? >>> >>> And email me daily? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 15 20:37:36 2009 From: efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ed F. McCurdy) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:37:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:09:34 EDT." <4AD21F5E.7000707-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD21F5E.7000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2530.1255639056@lowell> >>>>> "Rajinder" == Rajinder Yadav writes: >> This project wraps openssl for use from python: >> >> http://chandlerproject.org/bin/view/Projects/MeTooCrypto >> >> It could be used as guide for how to build a similar interface >> for Ruby. Python and Ruby have similar mechanisms for calling code written in C. M2Crypto uses SWIG to generate the wrapper code to use openssl. SWIG can generate wrapper code for Ruby as well as Python. >> "M2Crypto's unit tests cover over 80% of the Python code." Rajinder> What does that mean, the code is written mostly in python? Rajinder> With Ruby I am planning on doing all the heavy lifting in Rajinder> C/C++ code and just writing Ruby wrappers. The Python code being tested is the wrapper code that makes openssl functions callable from Python, all the crypto work is done inside libssl.so and libcrypto.so from openssl.org. Rajinder> Would know have an idea how M2Crypto is coded, thanks! It is coded in much the same way as any typical Ruby Extension Module; a google search for "swig ruby" will turn up many similiar examples. Ed -- Edward F. McCurdy | efmccurdy-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 00:30:20 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:30:20 -0400 Subject: C is fastest In-Reply-To: <4AD6B493.2080808-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910091645g3424fcd3y7a7d31fec0549711@mail.gmail.com> <200910142145.38073.amarjan@pobox.com> <4AD6B493.2080808@rogers.com> Message-ID: <200910152030.20743.amarjan@pobox.com> On October 15, 2009 01:35:15 am Yanni Chiu wrote: > Nobody (that I've heard of) has implemented a system that > executes/interprets the xUML models directly, except maybe in model > simulation/debug mode. The technique is to compile the model into a > target archetype. The archetype may be implemented in C, C++, ADA, etc. > The archetype can be re-used for any system that is modeled. The model > elements get transformed, by code generation, into pieces that match up > with the archetype code. Then the generated code is compiled and linked > to yield the executable system. Certainly I agree that nobody executes all of UML -- for one thing it's too vast and much of the semantics are underspecified. I don't understand what you're saying -- it seems to me that your description of UML compilation is generic enough to apply to compilation in general. > I'm not sure what you wanted to imply by the link - that UML is > executable? I think the answer currently is: not without code generation > of a carefully selected subset of UML. > The link was merely (an attempt at) a tongue-in-cheek example of the fact that it is possible to generate an executable system directly from UML. A subset of UML with its own extended semantics, but UML nonetheless. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 00:32:00 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:32:00 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <20091015180907.GE32576-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> <20091015180907.GE32576@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD7BF00.90808@gmail.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 01:58:58PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >> | From: Madison Kelly >> >> | A few things I've noticed already; >> >> Thanks for the update. >> >> I run Ubuntu on some of my systems and I salvishly update when a new >> version seems safe. Thanks for being one of the testers! >> >> | - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it highlights the >> | part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. >> >> How could it do that without violating normal UNIX abstractions?? > > Only do it if output is a tty? ls --color=auto does the same thing. > If output is a tty, colour it, and if it is a pipe or a file, then don't > touch it. > i already was getting colour ls listing in ubuntu 9.04, tired the grep with--color and i see the match highlighted in color, so it must be an alias on 9.10 if i type alias in my shell i get the following output: yadav at K64x2:$ alias alias ls='ls --color=auto' i think i am going to add the alias --color to grep now =) >> That's been possible, I think, with a kernel parameter (i.e. >> vga=something in the kernel line in the grub config file >> /boot/grub/menu.lst). I don't do this so I'm not sure if this has >> changed in the last decade. >> >> I do usually scrape off the kernel parameters I don't like, splash and >> quiet. > > Some X drivers have also at times been broken whenever the console > was anything other than 80x25, although I don't know if that is the > case anymore. > >> | - Input method switching now is done by ctrl+space instead of shift+space. >> | This is long over due! For example, if I was trying to write a SQL query, I >> | have a habit of capitalizing command words. I'd often switch to kana input >> | when I didn't want to. That won't happen any more. >> >> Yikes! My fingers have been using CTRL-SPACE for NUL since 1982 (the >> EMACS set-mark command). They are not going to be happy. > > Anytime someone tries to add a short cut, they break something. I have > seen people map alt+F# to desktop switching. Rather annoying given alt+f2 > seems rather universally to be 'run program'. When you are used to that, > any other use is annoying. Or mapping a function key to activate > something, when that is a key lots of applications can use for their > own needs. Tricky business indeed. > >> I'm kind of used to Pidgin for the very few times I use it. LICQ used >> to be fine. Is Empathy better or just different? This is some Gnome >> issue, I guess. > > I have been happy with pidgin. I hadn't heard of Empathy before. > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 00:55:33 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:55:33 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib In-Reply-To: <2530.1255639056@lowell> References: <2530.1255639056@lowell> Message-ID: <4AD7C485.70509@gmail.com> Ed F. McCurdy wrote: >>>>>> "Rajinder" == Rajinder Yadav writes: > > >> This project wraps openssl for use from python: > >> > >> http://chandlerproject.org/bin/view/Projects/MeTooCrypto > >> > >> It could be used as guide for how to build a similar interface > >> for Ruby. > > Python and Ruby have similar mechanisms for calling code written in C. > M2Crypto uses SWIG to generate the wrapper code to use openssl. > SWIG can generate wrapper code for Ruby as well as Python. > > >> "M2Crypto's unit tests cover over 80% of the Python code." > > Rajinder> What does that mean, the code is written mostly in python? > Rajinder> With Ruby I am planning on doing all the heavy lifting in > Rajinder> C/C++ code and just writing Ruby wrappers. > > The Python code being tested is the wrapper code that makes > openssl functions callable from Python, all the > crypto work is done inside libssl.so and libcrypto.so from openssl.org. > > Rajinder> Would know have an idea how M2Crypto is coded, thanks! > > It is coded in much the same way as any typical Ruby Extension Module; > a google search for "swig ruby" will turn up many similiar examples. > > Ed Thanks ED, I was hoping M2Crypto was using SWIG, because than it's just a matter of calling swig with the -ruby switch and you have instant interface bindings for Ruby as far as I understand. I started to play around with SWIG and liked the fact that you can leverage SWIG interfaces to map C/C++ code to other languages like Ruby, Perl, Python, over a dozen other languages to pick. Unfortunately the SWIG mailing list is pretty limp, great tool with good document, but they need to build a more active community, then again maybe not that many people get this deep into coding. I am still waiting for a reply about memory allocation and GC behavior on C/C++ allocated memory and passed to Ruby, or vice versa. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 04:11:57 2009 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 00:11:57 -0400 Subject: McMaster University Creates Open Source eHealth Records System In-Reply-To: <4AD621D6.6010003-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910131029p1bbf91ceq2122e128626c266f@mail.gmail.com> <20091013184552.GB26341@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <491f66a50910131258w7391bb58va2937993dfe44e0a@mail.gmail.com> <4AD4F8F0.9050907@utoronto.ca> <4AD54C3C.6030006@rogers.com> <4AD621D6.6010003@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091016041156.GA18186@node1.opengeometry.net> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 03:09:10PM -0400, Yanni Chiu wrote: > William Muriithi wrote: > >I am going to avoid getting on which of the two database is better. > >Its likely that mysql is inferior to PostgreSQL for sure. However, I > >do think you come out too strong to be frank. > > I didn't think I was too strong. I was just try to avoid having to > repeat what has been posted here many times, which is that the integrity > of the data is much more secure in PostgreSQL than in MySQL. > > I think you've missed my point, unless you believe that losing a few > micro-dollars due to lack of data integrity in Google AdWords is > comparable to mis-diagnosis or mis-treatment due to lack of data > integrity in patient records. I'll bet, if MySQL is used for MySQL guys' payroll, it'll be fixed fast. I chuckle everytime they wave off this issue of "losing data"... :-) --William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 11:07:04 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:07:04 -0400 Subject: grep colouring, was [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <4AD7BF00.90808-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> <20091015180907.GE32576@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD7BF00.90808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1255691224.12662.24.camel@cougar-hardy> On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 20:32 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > i think i am going to add the alias --color to grep now =) Or, if you are so inclined, --colour. Heh, heh. Who wouldda thunk it? Cheers, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 13:56:11 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:56:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib In-Reply-To: <4AD7C485.70509-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <2530.1255639056@lowell> <4AD7C485.70509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091016135611.GF32576@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:55:33PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > I was hoping M2Crypto was using SWIG, because than it's just a matter of > calling swig with the -ruby switch and you have instant interface > bindings for Ruby as far as I understand. > > I started to play around with SWIG and liked the fact that you can > leverage SWIG interfaces to map C/C++ code to other languages like Ruby, > Perl, Python, over a dozen other languages to pick. > > Unfortunately the SWIG mailing list is pretty limp, great tool with good > document, but they need to build a more active community, then again > maybe not that many people get this deep into coding. But if the tool works and is feature complete, why does it need an active community? It is done. :) > I am still waiting for a reply about memory allocation and GC behavior on > C/C++ allocated memory and passed to Ruby, or vice versa. > -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 14:51:33 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:51:33 -0400 Subject: adv. reg. closing: New talks confirmed at OGLF Message-ID: Hi All, Advanced, discounted registration for Ontario GNU Linux Fest is closing today. We really want you to take advantage of the reduced rate ($40/each) by registering today. Admission is $60 at the door. http://onlinux.ca/olfreg We've recently confirmed more awesome talks and speakers. I know you've heard about the $1Billion dollar e-health debacle? Learn about Open Source Electronic Medical Record systems from the founder of McMaster's OSCAR, Dr. David H Chan. But did you know that the economy is a little soft? Jim Elliott from IBM will tell us about Linux in Hash Economic Times and the applications to green business. Wish that your project had more participants? Mel Chua will talk about the silent blockers that are preventing people form contributing to your project. Like electronics? Think our new robot overlords are cool? Leigh Honeywell and Rob P. J. Day have talks on Arduino and Beagleboard. Over 24 talks, hundreds of your newest friends and colleagues, a full day of information and idea sharing and two great parties. Presentations - http://onlinux.ca/talks Final schedule TBA Monday. Doors open 8am First keynote 9am Last Keynote 5pm See you there, Richard -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 16:22:35 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:22:35 -0400 Subject: grep colouring, was [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <1255691224.12662.24.camel@cougar-hardy> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> <20091015180907.GE32576@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AD7BF00.90808@gmail.com> <1255691224.12662.24.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: <4AD89DCB.2050407@gmail.com> Terrence Enger wrote: > On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 20:32 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >> i think i am going to add the alias --color to grep now =) > > Or, if you are so inclined, --colour. Heh, heh. Who wouldda thunk it? HA! That is how I first typed it but figured I had to use en-us for it to work ! > Cheers, > Terry. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 16:41:00 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:41:00 -0400 Subject: OT: Cypto Lib In-Reply-To: <20091016135611.GF32576-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <2530.1255639056@lowell> <4AD7C485.70509@gmail.com> <20091016135611.GF32576@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AD8A21C.1030403@gmail.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:55:33PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> I was hoping M2Crypto was using SWIG, because than it's just a matter of >> calling swig with the -ruby switch and you have instant interface >> bindings for Ruby as far as I understand. >> >> I started to play around with SWIG and liked the fact that you can >> leverage SWIG interfaces to map C/C++ code to other languages like Ruby, >> Perl, Python, over a dozen other languages to pick. >> >> Unfortunately the SWIG mailing list is pretty limp, great tool with good >> document, but they need to build a more active community, then again >> maybe not that many people get this deep into coding. > > But if the tool works and is feature complete, why does it need an> active community? It is done. :) I know you know what I am about to say already... people need a place to go ask questions and learn that is why i like active community sponsorship, also things are never complete in software, the moment they are complete, they are dead or it may seem that was to some people, wrongly or rightly. SWIG developers are still working on the next release to better incorporate C++ into SWIG., so it's not dead or done yet =) I will keep on said limp mailing list(ML) to lurk, learn, and provide answers if I can. This is pretty much what I did when I was learning Ruby, although it was very easy to learn with my C++ background, on the ML I picked up a few tricks here and there that I might not have otherwise if I was just writing and eating my own "dog food" ;) ... For instance I learned the proper way to redefine a class method to perform a deep copy of an object. The obvious way to me was wrong and it was broken. I asked why it was broken and I got a lot of insights, many update to my Ruby Quick Note doc, which by the way is now up to 107 pages! As you know TLUG is an active community and I enjoy this ML a lot, great smart people, smarter than me, except for you Mr.....I kid!!! > >> I am still waiting for a reply about memory allocation and GC behavior on >> C/C++ allocated memory and passed to Ruby, or vice versa. >> > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 17:19:47 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:19:47 -0400 Subject: Five ways the Linux desktop shoots itself in the foot Message-ID: <7c50d3570910161019y69f6bc3ex7e639f567d694290@mail.gmail.com> An article on ComputerWorld, here is an excertp, to see the five reasons you'll have to go to the site: "I don't just write about the Linux desktop; I use it every day. At my desk, I tend to use MEPIS and Mint, while on the road, it's Ubuntu on my Dell netbook and openSUSE on my Lenovo ThinkPad. I do this because they work well and they're as safe as a desktop operating system can get. So why aren't more people using them? "Microsoft is the biggest reason. Microsoft is a jealous monopoly that doesn't want to share the desktop with anyone. Desktop Linux is just another target in a long list that has included OS/2, DR-DOS, and -- that eternal thorn in their side -- the Mac. It's no surprise, then, to see in the history of the Linux desktop that Microsoft has always tried to crush it. "The very first attempt at a mass-market Linux desktop, 1999's Corel Linux Desktop, lasted less than a year. Why? In 2000, Microsoft paid off debt-ridden Corel to kill it. "Much more recently, Microsoft, caught by surprise by the rise of Linux-powered netbooks, brought XP Home back from the dead and offered it to OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) for next to nothing to stem Linux's rise on low-end netbooks. "It's hard to beat a monopoly that will do whatever it takes to make sure people don't see there's a better, cheaper alternative. I understand that. At the same time, Linux has shot itself in the foot quite often. How?" http://blogs.computerworld.com/14911/five_ways_the_linux_desktop_shoots_itself_in_the_foot -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 17:29:08 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:29:08 -0400 Subject: Five ways the Linux desktop shoots itself in the foot In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910161019y69f6bc3ex7e639f567d694290-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910161019y69f6bc3ex7e639f567d694290@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > An article on ComputerWorld, here is an excertp, to see the five > reasons you'll have to go to the site: > > "I don't just write about the Linux desktop; I use it every day. At my > desk, I tend to use MEPIS and Mint, while on the road, it's Ubuntu on > my Dell netbook and openSUSE on my Lenovo ThinkPad. I do this because > they work well and they're as safe as a desktop operating system can > get. So why aren't more people using them? I'll note... None of the reasons actually say *anything AT ALL* about the Linux desktop!!! I would have expected it to say that there was one thing or another that was concretely deficient in the software, but software is never once mentioned. Seeing as how that's what Linux is (e.g. - SOFTWARE), a criticism of it presumably ought to at least say *something* about software. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Ted Turner - "Sports is like a war without the killing." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/ted_turner.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 17:29:15 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:29:15 -0400 Subject: Five ways the Linux desktop shoots itself in the foot In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910161019y69f6bc3ex7e639f567d694290-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910161019y69f6bc3ex7e639f567d694290@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091016132915.2eeb93e2@teksavvy.com> Michael Lauzon wrote: > An article on ComputerWorld, here is an excertp, to see the five > reasons you'll have to go to the site: > > "I don't just write about the Linux desktop; I use it every day. At my > desk, I tend to use MEPIS and Mint, while on the road, it's Ubuntu on > my Dell netbook and openSUSE on my Lenovo ThinkPad. I do this because > they work well and they're as safe as a desktop operating system can > get. So why aren't more people using them? > > "Microsoft is the biggest reason. Microsoft is a jealous monopoly that > doesn't want to share the desktop with anyone. Desktop Linux is just > another target in a long list that has included OS/2, DR-DOS, and -- > that eternal thorn in their side -- the Mac. It's no surprise, then, > to see in the history of the Linux desktop that Microsoft has always > tried to crush it. > > "The very first attempt at a mass-market Linux desktop, 1999's Corel > Linux Desktop, lasted less than a year. Why? In 2000, Microsoft paid > off debt-ridden Corel to kill it. > > "Much more recently, Microsoft, caught by surprise by the rise of > Linux-powered netbooks, brought XP Home back from the dead and offered > it to OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) for next to nothing to > stem Linux's rise on low-end netbooks. > > "It's hard to beat a monopoly that will do whatever it takes to make > sure people don't see there's a better, cheaper alternative. I > understand that. At the same time, Linux has shot itself in the foot > quite often. How?" > > http://blogs.computerworld.com/14911/five_ways_the_linux_desktop_shoots_itself_in_the_foot Oh, lord, why? Every day someone blogs some garbage like this, hoping that they'll attract a hellstorm of debate and thereby elevate the status of their pointless blog. Seen it a trillion times, boring. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 16 17:35:04 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:35:04 -0400 Subject: Five ways the Linux desktop shoots itself in the foot In-Reply-To: References: <7c50d3570910161019y69f6bc3ex7e639f567d694290@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD8AEC8.90805@moores.ca> Perhaps a more appropriate headline then would be "Five ways the Linux desktop gets shot in the head by foes and well intentions compatriots alike" Doesn't really matter. Either way Kenny is just as dead. Christopher Browne wrote: > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Michael Lauzon wrote: >> An article on ComputerWorld, here is an excertp, to see the five >> reasons you'll have to go to the site: >> >> "I don't just write about the Linux desktop; I use it every day. At my >> desk, I tend to use MEPIS and Mint, while on the road, it's Ubuntu on >> my Dell netbook and openSUSE on my Lenovo ThinkPad. I do this because >> they work well and they're as safe as a desktop operating system can >> get. So why aren't more people using them? > > I'll note... None of the reasons actually say *anything AT ALL* about > the Linux desktop!!! > > I would have expected it to say that there was one thing or another > that was concretely deficient in the software, but software is never > once mentioned. > > Seeing as how that's what Linux is (e.g. - SOFTWARE), a criticism of > it presumably ought to at least say *something* about software. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 17 00:01:25 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:01:25 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <4AD73B5F.7060707-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD73831.20209@golden.net> <4AD73B5F.7060707@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4AD90955.6000606@dinamis.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Pulseaudio is not a feature, it is a bug. I despise it. It is slow and > buggy, and even stutters on quad core machines. That just shouldn't be > the case. > > OSS4 is out and is available, I find it works very well on my Debian > Squeeze systems (KDE/Gnome) try it out: http://developer.opensound.com If there is one thing that I can point to and say, "This is why Linux can't be successful on the desktop, yet.", it has to be the sorry state of multi-media. I'm finding that Pulseaudio is a complete mystery to me. Occasionally it works on my Fedora 11 machine. Sometimes it even sounds passable. Most of the time, it's choppy, has annoying pops and clicks, and often doesn't work with Flash. Then again, Flash itself is a mystery. Now when I hit "Play" in Flash, I'll see the progress bar in the player filling up but the frames don't advance. When Flash is working, if I fullscreen the Flash player, all I will see is a wireframe where the Flash player is embedded on the page but I won't see any video or hear any audio. Why? No idea and I don't have the time to investigate so when I get really exasperated, I just turn 90 degrees, face my notebook computer running XP, and just use that. Back in my early days of running Linux 11 years ago, this sort of thing, I expected. Since then, the Linux desktop has gotten much better to the point where in the not-too-distant-past, it was a credible alternative as a desktop operating system. Now, it seems we have a bunch of regressions and I find my machine is much faster at being less usable. :) -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 17 01:19:30 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: adv. reg. closing: New talks confirmed at OGLF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Oct 2009, Richard Weait wrote: > But did you know that the economy is a little soft? Jim Elliott from > IBM will tell us about Linux in Hash Economic Times and the > applications to green business. _Hash_ economic times _Green_ business Is there a hidden message here? :) Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy http://www.practicalsysadmin.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 17 01:24:50 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:24:50 -0400 Subject: adv. reg. closing: New talks confirmed at OGLF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Fri, 16 Oct 2009, Richard Weait wrote: > >> But did you know that the economy is a little soft? ?Jim Elliott from >> IBM will tell us about Linux in Hash Economic Times and the >> applications to green business. > > _Hash_ economic times > _Green_ business Oops. s/Hash/Harsh/ But some perhaps will continue to look for hidden messages. The venue is still non-smoking. ;-) Thank you, Robert. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 17 03:20:30 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:20:30 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <4AD72ACB.9070405-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20091017032030.GA20182@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 09:59:39AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote > - The default font size in terminals, and I mean outside of X, is much > smaller. This means that when you do ctrl+alt+f[1-6], you have MUCH more > screen space to work with. This is probably one of my favourite changes. I've been doing this for ages on various distros, *WITHOUT* using VGATextMode . Here's the scoop... * it requires a combination of VGA boot modes and font selections * in lilo/grub - VGA=2 gives you 640 pixels across x 350 scanlines (ye olde EGA) - the default is 640 pixels across x 400 scanlines - VGA=6 gives you 640 pixels across x 480 scanlines In Gentoo, the fonts are stored in /usr/share/consolefonts/ waltdnes at d530 ~ $ ll -og /usr/share/consolefonts/lat1* -rw-r--r-- 1 1681 Jul 10 05:02 /usr/share/consolefonts/lat1-08.psfu.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 1771 Jul 10 05:02 /usr/share/consolefonts/lat1-10.psfu.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 1861 Jul 10 05:02 /usr/share/consolefonts/lat1-12.psfu.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 1906 Jul 10 05:02 /usr/share/consolefonts/lat1-14.psfu.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 1973 Jul 10 05:02 /usr/share/consolefonts/lat1-16.psfu.gz The "-08", "-10", etc gives the pixel height of the font. The number of rows in a true textmode console is calculated by dividing the number of scanlines by the height of the font. In the old days of CGA in DOS on the IBM PC, the only mode was 8x8 font on a 640x200 textmode console, giving 80 columns x 25 rows. Along came the EGA at 640x350 display with a 14-pixel high font. It was much more readable. By using various combinations of scanlines and fonts you can get 80 columns by various numbers of rows... Font height 350 400 480 16 21 25 30 14 25 28 34 12 29 33 40 10 35 40 48 8 43 50 60 Did you know that you can change the number of rows from a text console? In Gentoo, the command is setfont. Select the font you want. Stick with the lat1-* fonts, or you might complain that "it's all Greek to me". -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 17 03:49:44 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:49:44 -0400 Subject: Lobbyists trying to gut anti-spyware laws in Bill C27 Message-ID: <20091017034944.GB20182@waltdnes.org> Michael Geist in http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4464/125/ writes about out outrageous amendmants submitted by various MPs to water down anti-spyware laws. They want to create a major loophole, that would allow most software to *SURREPTITIOUSLY* install DRM and/or spy on end users, e.g. Sony rootkits. The loophole is that spying must be "the primary purpose" of a program to be illegal. So a program that plays a proprietary media format could be claimed to have a "primary purpose" of playing the media, and spyware, rootkits, etc was "only secondary". Write your MP. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 17 21:03:51 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lobbyists trying to gut anti-spyware laws in Bill C27 In-Reply-To: <20091017034944.GB20182-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091017034944.GB20182@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: | From: Walter Dnes | Michael Geist in http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4464/125/ | writes about out outrageous amendmants submitted by various MPs to water | down anti-spyware laws. Yeah. I just emailed my MP. It is worth reading Geist in general. I don't get arround to that often enough. One that I just read and got me mad was this one: http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4423/159/ I listened to Peter Van Loan on the CBC's Cross-Country Check-Up saying Canada needs Lawful Access. He gave an example of a kidnapping case where the investigation was heald up by a 36 hour delay in getting ISP records, precious time during a kidnapping. The progam is here: http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/archive/2009/090621CC.mp3 Listen to about 7 minutes and 45 seconds in. The interview starts a little earlier. Geist has uncovered evidence showing that this never happened. The kidnapping happened, but no request for ISP records was made. Shame! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 17 21:28:32 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:28:32 -0400 Subject: Lobbyists trying to gut anti-spyware laws in Bill C27 In-Reply-To: References: <20091017034944.GB20182@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4ADA3700.9080705@gmail.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Walter Dnes > > | Michael Geist in http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4464/125/ > | writes about out outrageous amendmants submitted by various MPs to water > | down anti-spyware laws. > > Yeah. I just emailed my MP. Thanks, I just emailed Industry Minister Tony Clement. > > > It is worth reading Geist in general. I don't get arround to that > often enough. One that I just read and got me mad was this one: > http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4423/159/ > > I listened to Peter Van Loan on the CBC's Cross-Country Check-Up > saying Canada needs Lawful Access. He gave an example of a kidnapping > case where the investigation was heald up by a 36 hour delay in > getting ISP records, precious time during a kidnapping. > > The progam is here: > http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/archive/2009/090621CC.mp3 > Listen to about 7 minutes and 45 seconds in. The interview starts a > little earlier. > > Geist has uncovered evidence showing that this never happened. The > kidnapping happened, but no request for ISP records was made. > > Shame! > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 17 23:46:56 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:46:56 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest Message-ID: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual install represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up a Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a disk partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running VirtualBox, in this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system running within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as a root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different one...." http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 00:21:13 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:21:13 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <1255823216.10854.2.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Message-ID: <4ADA5F79.9060203@utoronto.ca> Ken Burtch wrote: > My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: > > "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual install > represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. > > This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up a > Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a disk > partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running VirtualBox, in > this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system running > within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as a > root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different one...." > > http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html > If you have a working gentoo system, you can save compiling packages again by using prebuilt packages with emerge: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-amd64.xml?part=2&chap=3#doc_chap4 You might also try funtoo, Daniel Robbins' git based Gentoo fork. http://www.funtoo.org/en/funtoo/about/ Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 00:55:45 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:55:45 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <1255823216.10854.2.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Message-ID: <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> Ken Burtch wrote: > My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: > > "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual install > represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. > > This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up a > Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a disk > partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running VirtualBox, in > this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system running > within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as a > root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different one...." > > http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html > Hi Ken, this is a well written article, excellent work. Question, about when you say "manual install represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox."Is it really that challenging? I've used VMWare and installed many distro on my WinXP, with custom partition, the process was relative effortless and quick. So is it Gentoo that's involved to install or does VirtualBox makes it so, or do you just like to command line it like a guru =) ... I compared the steps to install Ubuntu and Debain, and I never had to drop into the shell to type stuff to install Linux, ever, not even with Slackware. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 00:57:15 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:57:15 -0400 Subject: [TLUG] Applause For Finland: First Country To Make Broadband Access A Legal Right In-Reply-To: <1089a0320910150521x44e9fc5fs56b32a6505fd81df-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1089a0320910150459l71b12024je88d456d83d26355@mail.gmail.com> <3B6B5972E9FC49C2AAA70860D80D44F1@plex06> <1089a0320910150521x44e9fc5fs56b32a6505fd81df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADA67EB.60209@rogers.com> Marcelo Cavalcante wrote: > Well, I don't care too much about this specific issue. > They pay taxes, right? So.. for sure, it wouldn't be sooooo expansive > for the government to make it works. > In fact, many other countries in Europe or even here, in Brazil, we > can see many people discuting about this kind of initiative. > > In my city, Fortaleza - Brazil, we do already have some projects > working with BPL (Broadband Over Power Lines). It's already working in > some pilot projects. This kind of thing is amazing and for sure will > reduce the cost of connectivity and improve the access. BPL is not a good technology. There is enormous potential for it to interfere with various radio services. This was a big issue in the U.S. recently. It really polluted the radio spectrum. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 02:48:52 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:48:52 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1851C79D-7EED-4698-AD9E-962440451A35@gmail.com> On 15-Oct-09, at 10:22 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Madison Kelly > wrote: >> Rajinder Yadav ????????: >>> >>> Thinking of upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10, maybe after a month it's out >>> in the >>> wild. Note sure what they've done to make it better, anyone have >>> any ideas? >> >> Oddly enough, I upgraded to it last night (beta, obviously). So >> far, I like! >> It's not bug free... I managed to crash it just after installing it >> by >> changing the hostname, but a reboot fixed it. I already submitted a >> bug >> report on that. >> >> A few things I've noticed already; >> >> - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it >> highlights >> the part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo >> nice. >> >> - The default font size in terminals, and I mean outside of X, is >> much >> smaller. This means that when you do ctrl+alt+f[1-6], you have MUCH >> more >> screen space to work with. This is probably one of my favourite >> changes. >> >> - Gnome's wallpaper function now supports a set of backgrounds you >> can have >> cycle over time. And not just all the ones you've added, you can >> created >> different sets to use, or use normal static ones. >> >> - Input method switching now is done by ctrl+space instead of shift >> +space. >> This is long over due! For example, if I was trying to write a SQL >> query, I >> have a habit of capitalizing command words. I'd often switch to >> kana input >> when I didn't want to. That won't happen any more. >> >> - Input method switching now works in KDE apps launched in Gnome! I >> often >> use Kate and, until now, would have to write whatever in gedit or >> the shell >> and then copy/paste it into Kate. This isn't needed any more. >> >> - Kate not has predictive text complete pop-ups. So far, I don't >> find it >> gets in the way, and it seems to use some sort of learning because >> it brings >> up chunks of text I've typed before that would be in no dictionary. >> I've not >> made use of this yet, but I think I can see myself using it soon. >> >> - They've changed their theme to a darker brown. This is a small >> thing, but >> it is refreshing. >> >> - They dropped Pidgin for Empathy as the default IM client. I've >> not used it >> yet though, I just installed pidgin. >> >> If you or anyone else is interested, I'll post more as I get more >> used to >> it. In short though: >> >> I like! >> >> Madi > > Great update Madi, ya please keep me informed, maybe do another follow > up post in 2 weeks when the final release is out, and let us know it > some of the bugs you found have been plugged. > > I stopped using kate for bluefish early on, not sure if I will go back > to kate with the new changes, but will have a look. > Anyone using Quanta (web) or Anjuta (C/C++)? I like Quanta's interface but it's a real memory hog/leak in 9.04, Anjuta has served me well but if anyone knows of new features or changes I would love to hear on them before I next update. > I use KDE, but wondering what the new xfce is like, have you tired > taking that for a spin? > > I will ping you if you forget. > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > > http://devmentor.org > Do Good! ~ Share Freely > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 02:44:04 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:44:04 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <4AD73B5F.7060707-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD73831.20209@golden.net> <4AD73B5F.7060707@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <5D8E8891-E79B-49AB-9022-B7E12A3E7474@gmail.com> Pulse seems to be mainly intended to allow mixing multiple sources without blocking, but I've found that this works even with just plain ALSA on most cards nowadays. However if OSS4 can get the mic input to work on my "HD Audio" based laptop chipset I will gladly switch. While I do understand that there are many variants on these chipsets having it broken for so long is a real setback for Linux on the desktop (IMHO). (sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos) On 15-Oct-09, at 8:10 AM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > John Myshrall wrote: >> Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>> Thinking of upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10, maybe after a month it's out >>> in the wild. Note sure what they've done to make it better, anyone >>> have any ideas? >>> >>> >> One possible glitch you may run into is pulse audio. I'm on 9.1 on >> 2 boxes. The clean install box gave me grief with sound especially >> with flash video. The other box was an upgrade and it went >> smoothly. I can't comment much on any improvements. Maybe eye candy >> a little but I turn that off. > > Pulseaudio is not a feature, it is a bug. I despise it. It is slow > and buggy, and even stutters on quad core machines. That just > shouldn't be the case. > > OSS4 is out and is available, I find it works very well on my Debian > Squeeze systems (KDE/Gnome) try it out: http://developer.opensound.com > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 04:25:19 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 00:25:19 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Archive frozen for preparation of Ubuntu 9.10] In-Reply-To: <1851C79D-7EED-4698-AD9E-962440451A35-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4AD6D0D9.2010804@gmail.com> <4AD72ACB.9070405@alteeve.com> <1851C79D-7EED-4698-AD9E-962440451A35@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADA98AF.2040500@gmail.com> Aviss,Tyler wrote: > > On 15-Oct-09, at 10:22 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Madison Kelly wrote: >>> Rajinder Yadav ????????: >>>> >>>> Thinking of upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10, maybe after a month it's out >>>> in the >>>> wild. Note sure what they've done to make it better, anyone have any >>>> ideas? >>> >>> Oddly enough, I upgraded to it last night (beta, obviously). So far, >>> I like! >>> It's not bug free... I managed to crash it just after installing it by >>> changing the hostname, but a reboot fixed it. I already submitted a bug >>> report on that. >>> >>> A few things I've noticed already; >>> >>> - At the command line, when you pipe something through grep, it >>> highlights >>> the part of the string grep matched on. A small change, but soooo nice. >>> >>> - The default font size in terminals, and I mean outside of X, is much >>> smaller. This means that when you do ctrl+alt+f[1-6], you have MUCH more >>> screen space to work with. This is probably one of my favourite changes. >>> >>> - Gnome's wallpaper function now supports a set of backgrounds you >>> can have >>> cycle over time. And not just all the ones you've added, you can created >>> different sets to use, or use normal static ones. >>> >>> - Input method switching now is done by ctrl+space instead of >>> shift+space. >>> This is long over due! For example, if I was trying to write a SQL >>> query, I >>> have a habit of capitalizing command words. I'd often switch to kana >>> input >>> when I didn't want to. That won't happen any more. >>> >>> - Input method switching now works in KDE apps launched in Gnome! I >>> often >>> use Kate and, until now, would have to write whatever in gedit or the >>> shell >>> and then copy/paste it into Kate. This isn't needed any more. >>> >>> - Kate not has predictive text complete pop-ups. So far, I don't find it >>> gets in the way, and it seems to use some sort of learning because it >>> brings >>> up chunks of text I've typed before that would be in no dictionary. >>> I've not >>> made use of this yet, but I think I can see myself using it soon. >>> >>> - They've changed their theme to a darker brown. This is a small >>> thing, but >>> it is refreshing. >>> >>> - They dropped Pidgin for Empathy as the default IM client. I've not >>> used it >>> yet though, I just installed pidgin. >>> >>> If you or anyone else is interested, I'll post more as I get more >>> used to >>> it. In short though: >>> >>> I like! >>> >>> Madi >> >> Great update Madi, ya please keep me informed, maybe do another follow >> up post in 2 weeks when the final release is out, and let us know it >> some of the bugs you found have been plugged. >> >> I stopped using kate for bluefish early on, not sure if I will go back >> to kate with the new changes, but will have a look. >> > Anyone using Quanta (web) or Anjuta (C/C++)? I like Quanta's interface > but it's a real memory hog/leak in 9.04, Anjuta has served me well but > if anyone knows of new features or changes I would love to hear on them > before I next update. Hi Tyler, for C/C++, have you tried Code::Blocks? I haven't done much C/C++ development on Linux, but I was very impressed with this cross platform C/C++ IDE. I did use it to port a unit test tool I wrote in C++ for Windows, setting up the project and getting rolling was relatively easy, more so because it was similar to using VisualStudio. Finding and cchanging complier/linker setting was intuitive (at least for me). http://www.codeblocks.org/ For web development, you can take a look at Aptana http://www.aptana.org/studio I like it because it has plugin support for ruby on rails, I have not used it much, but plan to as I ramp up on my Ruby on Rails development learning. You don't need to upgrade your Ubuntu to start enjoying them =) > >> I use KDE, but wondering what the new xfce is like, have you tired >> taking that for a spin? >> >> I will ping you if you forget. >> >> -- >> Kind Regards, >> Rajinder Yadav >> >> http://devmentor.org >> Do Good! ~ Share Freely >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 12:42:35 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 08:42:35 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADA6791.2010808-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 20:55 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Ken Burtch wrote: > > My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: > > > > "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual install > > represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. > > > > This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up a > > Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a disk > > partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running VirtualBox, in > > this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system running > > within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as a > > root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different one...." > > > > http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html > > > > Hi Ken, > > this is a well written article, excellent work. > > Question, about when you say "manual install represents the ultimate challenge > to boot Linux on VirtualBox."Is it really that challenging? As I wrote at the end of the article, it took an hour to install Fedora and OpenSolaris. And it took a week to install Gentoo, looking up the right commands and settings through Google, So, on that basis, the Gentoo install was 35 times longer and more complicated, and 35 times the cost. > I've used VMWare and installed many distro on my WinXP, with custom partition, > the process was relative effortless and quick. > > So is it Gentoo that's involved to install or does VirtualBox makes it so, or do > you just like to command line it like a guru =) ... I compared the steps to > install Ubuntu and Debain, and I never had to drop into the shell to type stuff > to install Linux, ever, not even with Slackware. Because of its nature, Gentoo has no installer or setup program. There's no alternative except to use the shell and to use commands like "fdisk" that I haven't otherwise needed to use in years. Ken B. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 13:38:25 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 09:38:25 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <1255869755.11856.5.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Message-ID: <4ADB1A51.3070003@utoronto.ca> Ken Burtch wrote: > On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 20:55 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> Ken Burtch wrote: >>> My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: >>> >>> "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual install >>> represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. >>> >>> This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up a >>> Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a disk >>> partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running VirtualBox, in >>> this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system running >>> within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as a >>> root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different one...." >>> >>> http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html >>> >> Hi Ken, >> >> this is a well written article, excellent work. >> >> Question, about when you say "manual install represents the ultimate challenge >> to boot Linux on VirtualBox."Is it really that challenging? > > As I wrote at the end of the article, it took an hour to install Fedora > and OpenSolaris. And it took a week to install Gentoo, looking up the > right commands and settings through Google, So, on that basis, the > Gentoo install was 35 times longer and more complicated, and 35 times > the cost. The question was would a bare metal install have taken longer or would it have been about the same time? e.g. is there something specific about VirtualBox that requires more work. >> I've used VMWare and installed many distro on my WinXP, with custom partition, >> the process was relative effortless and quick. >> >> So is it Gentoo that's involved to install or does VirtualBox makes it so, or do >> you just like to command line it like a guru =) ... I compared the steps to >> install Ubuntu and Debain, and I never had to drop into the shell to type stuff >> to install Linux, ever, not even with Slackware. > > Because of its nature, Gentoo has no installer or setup program. > There's no alternative except to use the shell and to use commands like > "fdisk" that I haven't otherwise needed to use in years. They have an installer and have had for some time. A number of their releases have a livecd that do all the work for you. No fdisk needed. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 14:03:22 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:03:22 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADB1A51.3070003-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADB1A51.3070003@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1255874602.11856.15.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 09:38 -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Ken Burtch wrote: > > On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 20:55 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >> Ken Burtch wrote: > >>> My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: > >>> > >>> "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual install > >>> represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. > >>> > >>> This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up a > >>> Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a disk > >>> partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running VirtualBox, in > >>> this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system running > >>> within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as a > >>> root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different one...." > >>> > >>> http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html > >>> > >> Hi Ken, > >> > >> this is a well written article, excellent work. > >> > >> Question, about when you say "manual install represents the ultimate challenge > >> to boot Linux on VirtualBox."Is it really that challenging? > > > > As I wrote at the end of the article, it took an hour to install Fedora > > and OpenSolaris. And it took a week to install Gentoo, looking up the > > right commands and settings through Google, So, on that basis, the > > Gentoo install was 35 times longer and more complicated, and 35 times > > the cost. > > The question was would a bare metal install have taken longer or would > it have been about the same time? e.g. is there something specific about > VirtualBox that requires more work. There is additional work for a VirtualBox install, such as configuring the Guest Additions, but I did not do a bare metal install so I can't compare. > >> I've used VMWare and installed many distro on my WinXP, with custom partition, > >> the process was relative effortless and quick. > >> > >> So is it Gentoo that's involved to install or does VirtualBox makes it so, or do > >> you just like to command line it like a guru =) ... I compared the steps to > >> install Ubuntu and Debain, and I never had to drop into the shell to type stuff > >> to install Linux, ever, not even with Slackware. > > > > Because of its nature, Gentoo has no installer or setup program. > > There's no alternative except to use the shell and to use commands like > > "fdisk" that I haven't otherwise needed to use in years. > > They have an installer and have had for some time. A number of their > releases have a livecd that do all the work for you. No fdisk needed. The LiveCD is not an installer. It merely runs a generic Gentoo kernel off the CD. To put Gentoo on your hard drive, you still need fdisk, install portage, download the root file system image, etc. as far as I know. Gentoo's documentation didn't say anything about the LiveCD doing "all the work for you". Perhaps I am mistaken?? > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 14:15:36 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:15:36 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <1255874602.11856.15.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADB1A51.3070003@utoronto.ca> <1255874602.11856.15.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Message-ID: <4ADB2308.4020609@utoronto.ca> Ken Burtch wrote: > On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 09:38 -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Ken Burtch wrote: >>> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 20:55 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>>> Ken Burtch wrote: >>>>> My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: >>>>> >>>>> "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual install >>>>> represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. >>>>> >>>>> This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up a >>>>> Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a disk >>>>> partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running VirtualBox, in >>>>> this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system running >>>>> within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as a >>>>> root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different one...." >>>>> >>>>> http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html >>>>> >>>> Hi Ken, >>>> >>>> this is a well written article, excellent work. >>>> >>>> Question, about when you say "manual install represents the ultimate challenge >>>> to boot Linux on VirtualBox."Is it really that challenging? >>> As I wrote at the end of the article, it took an hour to install Fedora >>> and OpenSolaris. And it took a week to install Gentoo, looking up the >>> right commands and settings through Google, So, on that basis, the >>> Gentoo install was 35 times longer and more complicated, and 35 times >>> the cost. >> The question was would a bare metal install have taken longer or would >> it have been about the same time? e.g. is there something specific about >> VirtualBox that requires more work. > > There is additional work for a VirtualBox install, such as configuring > the Guest Additions, but I did not do a bare metal install so I can't > compare. That can be good or bad. Using genkernel will save figuring out your kernel .config either way, but bare metal can take a bit of fiddling to find the right kernel options (whereas I'd assume VirtualBox kernel images are rather more standardized). >>>> I've used VMWare and installed many distro on my WinXP, with custom partition, >>>> the process was relative effortless and quick. >>>> >>>> So is it Gentoo that's involved to install or does VirtualBox makes it so, or do >>>> you just like to command line it like a guru =) ... I compared the steps to >>>> install Ubuntu and Debain, and I never had to drop into the shell to type stuff >>>> to install Linux, ever, not even with Slackware. >>> Because of its nature, Gentoo has no installer or setup program. >>> There's no alternative except to use the shell and to use commands like >>> "fdisk" that I haven't otherwise needed to use in years. >> They have an installer and have had for some time. A number of their >> releases have a livecd that do all the work for you. No fdisk needed. > > The LiveCD is not an installer. It merely runs a generic Gentoo kernel > off the CD. To put Gentoo on your hard drive, you still need fdisk, > install portage, download the root file system image, etc. as far as I > know. Gentoo's documentation didn't say anything about the LiveCD doing > "all the work for you". Perhaps I am mistaken?? It does it all. See here for a screenshot of the installer running via Xen: http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1544/gentooinstaller1.png Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 20:25:00 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:25:00 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADB2308.4020609-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADB1A51.3070003@utoronto.ca> <1255874602.11856.15.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADB2308.4020609@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1255897500.11856.30.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 10:15 -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Ken Burtch wrote: > > On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 09:38 -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: > >> Ken Burtch wrote: > >>> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 20:55 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > >>>> Ken Burtch wrote: > >>>>> My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: > >>>>> > >>>>> "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual install > >>>>> represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. > >>>>> > >>>>> This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up a > >>>>> Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a disk > >>>>> partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running VirtualBox, in > >>>>> this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system running > >>>>> within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as a > >>>>> root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different one...." > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html > >>>>> > >>>> Hi Ken, > >>>> > >>>> this is a well written article, excellent work. > >>>> > >>>> Question, about when you say "manual install represents the ultimate challenge > >>>> to boot Linux on VirtualBox."Is it really that challenging? > >>> As I wrote at the end of the article, it took an hour to install Fedora > >>> and OpenSolaris. And it took a week to install Gentoo, looking up the > >>> right commands and settings through Google, So, on that basis, the > >>> Gentoo install was 35 times longer and more complicated, and 35 times > >>> the cost. > >> The question was would a bare metal install have taken longer or would > >> it have been about the same time? e.g. is there something specific about > >> VirtualBox that requires more work. > > > > There is additional work for a VirtualBox install, such as configuring > > the Guest Additions, but I did not do a bare metal install so I can't > > compare. > > That can be good or bad. Using genkernel will save figuring out your > kernel .config either way, but bare metal can take a bit of fiddling to > find the right kernel options (whereas I'd assume VirtualBox kernel > images are rather more standardized). > > >>>> I've used VMWare and installed many distro on my WinXP, with custom partition, > >>>> the process was relative effortless and quick. > >>>> > >>>> So is it Gentoo that's involved to install or does VirtualBox makes it so, or do > >>>> you just like to command line it like a guru =) ... I compared the steps to > >>>> install Ubuntu and Debain, and I never had to drop into the shell to type stuff > >>>> to install Linux, ever, not even with Slackware. > >>> Because of its nature, Gentoo has no installer or setup program. > >>> There's no alternative except to use the shell and to use commands like > >>> "fdisk" that I haven't otherwise needed to use in years. > >> They have an installer and have had for some time. A number of their > >> releases have a livecd that do all the work for you. No fdisk needed. > > > > The LiveCD is not an installer. It merely runs a generic Gentoo kernel > > off the CD. To put Gentoo on your hard drive, you still need fdisk, > > install portage, download the root file system image, etc. as far as I > > know. Gentoo's documentation didn't say anything about the LiveCD doing > > "all the work for you". Perhaps I am mistaken?? > > It does it all. See here for a screenshot of the installer running via > Xen: http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1544/gentooinstaller1.png > > Jamon According to the Gentoo website (http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/installer/), the Installer is abandonware and is not supported. Ken B. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 21:18:32 2009 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <1255897500.11856.30.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADB1A51.3070003@utoronto.ca> <1255874602.11856.15.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADB2308.4020609@utoronto.ca> <1255897500.11856.30.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Message-ID: <001ac1e3656e88fe03d36fab727fa08a.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> > On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 10:15 -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Ken Burtch wrote: >> > On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 09:38 -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote: >> >> Ken Burtch wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 20:55 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> >>>> Ken Burtch wrote: >> >>>>> My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual >> install >> >>>>> represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up >> a >> >>>>> Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a >> disk >> >>>>> partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running >> VirtualBox, in >> >>>>> this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system >> running >> >>>>> within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as >> a >> >>>>> root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different >> one...." >> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html >> >>>>> >> >>>> Hi Ken, >> >>>> >> >>>> this is a well written article, excellent work. >> >>>> >> >>>> Question, about when you say "manual install represents the >> ultimate challenge >> >>>> to boot Linux on VirtualBox."Is it really that challenging? >> >>> As I wrote at the end of the article, it took an hour to install >> Fedora >> >>> and OpenSolaris. And it took a week to install Gentoo, looking up >> the >> >>> right commands and settings through Google, So, on that basis, the >> >>> Gentoo install was 35 times longer and more complicated, and 35 >> times >> >>> the cost. >> >> The question was would a bare metal install have taken longer or >> would >> >> it have been about the same time? e.g. is there something specific >> about >> >> VirtualBox that requires more work. >> > >> > There is additional work for a VirtualBox install, such as configuring >> > the Guest Additions, but I did not do a bare metal install so I can't >> > compare. >> >> That can be good or bad. Using genkernel will save figuring out your >> kernel .config either way, but bare metal can take a bit of fiddling to >> find the right kernel options (whereas I'd assume VirtualBox kernel >> images are rather more standardized). >> >> >>>> I've used VMWare and installed many distro on my WinXP, with custom >> partition, >> >>>> the process was relative effortless and quick. >> >>>> >> >>>> So is it Gentoo that's involved to install or does VirtualBox makes >> it so, or do >> >>>> you just like to command line it like a guru =) ... I compared the >> steps to >> >>>> install Ubuntu and Debain, and I never had to drop into the shell >> to type stuff >> >>>> to install Linux, ever, not even with Slackware. >> >>> Because of its nature, Gentoo has no installer or setup program. >> >>> There's no alternative except to use the shell and to use commands >> like >> >>> "fdisk" that I haven't otherwise needed to use in years. >> >> They have an installer and have had for some time. A number of their >> >> releases have a livecd that do all the work for you. No fdisk needed. >> > >> > The LiveCD is not an installer. It merely runs a generic Gentoo >> kernel >> > off the CD. To put Gentoo on your hard drive, you still need fdisk, >> > install portage, download the root file system image, etc. as far as I >> > know. Gentoo's documentation didn't say anything about the LiveCD >> doing >> > "all the work for you". Perhaps I am mistaken?? >> >> It does it all. See here for a screenshot of the installer running via >> Xen: http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1544/gentooinstaller1.png >> >> Jamon > > According to the Gentoo website > (http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/installer/), the Installer is > abandonware and is not supported. > > > Ken B. > Yeah, I've been using Gentoo for about 7 years. The recommended way of installing it is to download and burn to CD the Gentoo Weekly Minimal Install CD for your architecture and follow the Gentoo handbook. I've never tried the installer. The first time I tried installing Gentoo it took me a few attempts and several days but now that I know what I'm doing I can have a basic system up and running in 'only' a few hours. I'll admit installing and configuring Gentoo has a fairly steep learning curve but once you have it installed its great. Once command "emerge program" and your program is downloaded, compiled and installed along with all its dependencies onto your system according to your optimization settings. If you don't like manually editing configuration files you can always use Webmin. I'm glad I took the time to figure out how to install Gentoo, it taught me a lot about how a Linux system is setup. I look forward to trying out Funtoo when I have some free time. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 18 22:28:18 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:28:18 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADB1A51.3070003-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADB1A51.3070003@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Ken Burtch wrote: >> >> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 20:55 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >>> >>> Ken Burtch wrote: >>>> >>>> My latest Lone Coder column, very long and technical: >>>> >>>> "Regardless if you think Gentoo is genius or madness, a manual install >>>> represents the ultimate challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox. >>>> >>>> This document assumes you have a basic understanding of setting up a >>>> Linux computer, such as how to build a kernel and how to format a disk >>>> partition. "Host" refers to the operating system running VirtualBox, in >>>> this case, Windows Vista. "Guest" refers to the operating system running >>>> within VirtualBox, in this case, Gentoo Linux. I use "gentoo #" as a >>>> root Gentoo prompt but your actual prompt may be a different one...." >>>> >>>> http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder/coder_october_2009.html >>>> >>> Hi Ken, >>> >>> this is a well written article, excellent work. >>> >>> Question, about when you say "manual install represents the ultimate >>> challenge to boot Linux on VirtualBox."Is it really that challenging? >> >> As I wrote at the end of the article, it took an hour to install Fedora >> and OpenSolaris. ?And it took a week to install Gentoo, looking up the >> right commands and settings through Google, ?So, on that basis, the >> Gentoo install was 35 times longer and more complicated, and 35 times >> the cost. > > The question was would a bare metal install have taken longer or would it > have been about the same time? e.g. is there something specific about > VirtualBox that requires more work. > Ken, bumping up the question I and Jamon had about VirtualBox, see above. >>> I've used VMWare and installed many distro on my WinXP, with custom >>> partition, the process was relative effortless and quick. >>> >>> So is it Gentoo that's involved to install or does VirtualBox makes it >>> so, or do you just like to command line it like a guru =) ... I compared the >>> steps to install Ubuntu and Debain, and I never had to drop into the shell >>> to type stuff to install Linux, ever, not even with Slackware. >> >> Because of its nature, Gentoo has no installer or setup program. >> There's no alternative except to use the shell and to use commands like >> "fdisk" that I haven't otherwise needed to use in years. > > They have an installer and have had for some time. A number of their > releases have a livecd that do all the work for you. No fdisk needed. > > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://devmentor.org Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 01:35:41 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:35:41 -0400 Subject: OT: Of Orange Juice and iPods Message-ID: <1f13df280910181835q2cf011ebufc0d35404bea14d1@mail.gmail.com> A rather bizarre gift has fallen into my hands today: an iPod that someone decided to pour some Orange Juice on. I suppose this is recommended by the people at the Apple Genius Spa, and the iPod enjoyed it so much it decided to stop work forthwith. It has previously passed through the hands of another technologically competent person (which implies I'm technologically competent, but we'll leave that one hanging) who did their best to get it cleaned up, but to no avail. What interests me is the 60GB 1.8" hard drive. It's a Toshiba IDE HD with a ZIF connector - essentially a ribbon cable you stuff into a slot on the drive. Does anyone have an easy way to test this so I can find out if it's worth investing further money? Are there choices in USB enclosures available in Canada? It would make an awesome portable HD. TigerDirect is the only one I've found so far: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4242581&CatId=4349. Other thoughts are welcome. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 01:40:59 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:40:59 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed Message-ID: Not sure even what question to ask, but basically I've got my desktop machine with an onboard gigabit ethernet, a Linksys WRT54GL, and a multimedia drive connected to my TV which has wireless networking built in: http://www.mediagateusa.com/mg800hd.html For wireless, it supports: (Wi-Fi) IEEE 802.11 b/g/n; Wireless Security: WEP, WPA-P5K, WPA2-PSK, Wireless infrastructure and Ad-Hoc Mode I've been seeing transfer speeds around 1.2 MB/s, which is about 1/10th what I was hoping/expecting. Was I expecting too much? This is the first time this has ever been an issue, so I'm not sure how to investigate this. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 03:09:07 2009 From: bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Brandon Sandrowicz) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:09:07 -0700 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > Not sure even what question to ask, but basically I've got my desktop > machine with an onboard gigabit ethernet, a Linksys WRT54GL, and a > multimedia drive connected to my TV which has wireless networking > built in: > > http://www.mediagateusa.com/mg800hd.html > > For wireless, it supports: > > (Wi-Fi) IEEE 802.11 b/g/n; Wireless Security: WEP, WPA-P5K, WPA2-PSK, > Wireless infrastructure and Ad-Hoc Mode > > I've been seeing transfer speeds around 1.2 MB/s, which is about > 1/10th what I was hoping/expecting. Was I expecting too much? This is > the first time this has ever been an issue, so I'm not sure how to > investigate this. Is the drive connecting with 802.11b? Try changing your network over to be 802.11g-only in the router/ap settings. Apparently when you are in mixed mode -- b and g -- if a 802.11b device connects to the network the entire network speed drops. I'm not sure if this is AccessPoint-dependent or just a product of the 802.11 wireless protocol, but I've heard of it. Another thing to consider is wireless interference. For example, 802.11g's max speed of 54Mbit/s, but that is the theoretical max. If there is a lot of interference from other wireless networks, devices, microwaves in operation, etc, this can effect the speed causing it to drop. Sometimes this is also wireless chip and/or driver dependent. For example, the ath5k kernel driver doesn't deal with noise as well as the ath_pci (MadWifi) driver. I've been too lazy to change it back, but when I connect to the network after getting home from work it connects/disconnects at least 2 or 3 times before it decides to keep a stable connection (which is interesting seeing as my laptop is at most 6 feet from the access point with nothing but air in between). I've also seen claims on mailing lists that the ath5k doesn't run at 'full speed' compared to the ath_pci driver with the same hardware on the same network. The only thing that you could try to do to deal with interference (at least interference from other networks) is to try different channels for your access point, but even then you may have issues. Those 'SuperG' routers that used to be popular basically increased their bandwidth by using *all channels at once*... creating a helluva lot of interference for other networks that were too close. -- Brandon Sandrowicz -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 03:19:49 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:19:49 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <1255869755.11856.5.camel-sLtTAFnw5m7xXJQZHMdDwiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> Message-ID: <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 08:42:35AM -0400, Ken Burtch wrote > As I wrote at the end of the article, it took an hour to install Fedora > and OpenSolaris. And it took a week to install Gentoo, looking up the > right commands and settings through Google, So, on that basis, the > Gentoo install was 35 times longer and more complicated, and 35 times > the cost. Huh ??? It took me a few days the first time, way back when, in the days of stage 1 installs (the hard way), on a 400 mhz PII, whilst asking questions, and waiting for replies on the Gentoo mailing list. With stage 3 installs being the preferred method, no way does it take a week. I don't understand what is so hard about it. And why were you looking up commands on Google when the Gentoo installation docs walk you through the process? Gentoo (actually the current version of xorg-server) does *NOT* require an xorg.conf. It's only required for weird setups. And the dependancy resolving features of portage allow you to emerge any GUI app (mozilla-firefox, gimp, gnumeric, etc) on a console-only machine, and portage will build a functional X with TWM. You can add GNOME/KDE/whatever later. I prefer Blackbox, because I don't run desktops, I run applications. As for the Java crud... write once and run anywhere... that Java 1.2.3.4.5 is installed. Not 1.2.3.4.4 or 1.2.3.4.6 but it absolutely *MUST* be 1.2.3.4.5. I do not have Java on my machine. Ditto for OpenOffice and GNOME and KDE. If you're a Java developer, I can see Java being necessary for you, but for end-users, forget it. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 06:09:18 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADB1A51.3070003@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: It would be a kindness to the readers of this list if posters would trim the text they quote. Do quote the parts you are responding to, including attribution, but leave the rest out. It makes your point clearer and reduces the amount the reader must scan and process for relevance. Some people I respect actually eliminate attribution, but I personally don't like that. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 13:33:51 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADB1A51.3070003@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Oct 2009, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Jamon Camisso >> Ken Burtch wrote: >>> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 20:55 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> The question was would a bare metal install have taken longer or would it >> have been about the same time? e.g. is there something specific about >> VirtualBox that requires more work. >> > > Ken, bumping up the question I and Jamon had about VirtualBox, see above. I believe I answered this question in a previous post. I didn't do a bare metal install. There are several aspects of the install which are different on VirtualBox than the documented install process. Ken B. > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > > http://devmentor.org > Do Good! ~ Share Freely > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 13:55:19 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <20091019031949.GA10875-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 18 Oct 2009, waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 08:42:35AM -0400, Ken Burtch wrote > >> As I wrote at the end of the article, it took an hour to install Fedora >> and OpenSolaris. And it took a week to install Gentoo, looking up the >> right commands and settings through Google, So, on that basis, the >> Gentoo install was 35 times longer and more complicated, and 35 times >> the cost. > > Huh ??? It took me a few days the first time, way back when, in the > days of stage 1 installs (the hard way), on a 400 mhz PII, whilst asking > questions, and waiting for replies on the Gentoo mailing list. With > stage 3 installs being the preferred method, no way does it take a week. > I don't understand what is so hard about it. And why were you looking > up commands on Google when the Gentoo installation docs walk you through > the process? > > Gentoo (actually the current version of xorg-server) does *NOT* > require an xorg.conf. It's only required for weird setups. Thank you, Walter, for your feedback. In regards to your statements, if Fedora installs 20 packages and you argue that if you only install 10 on Gentoo that you can setup Gentoo just as fast, I think that proves my point that Gentoo is a slower install. Not installing packages would certainly reduce the time of an install, and would reduce the number of files Gentoo requires you to configure by hand. Following the Gentoo docs would absolutely lead to a failed installation on VirtualBox, as the installation process is not identical to a bare metal install. As Gentoo doesn't come with an xorg.conf file--except the sample one provided with the software and that doesn't support VirtualBox--and X Windows cannot not run without an xorg.conf file, and Gnome and KDE require X to run, I find it unlikely that you can get a graphical desktop in VirtualBox without creating and configuring the X config file. To get what I considered a full install of Gentoo on VirtualBox took me a week. To install the same on Fedora took an hour. Hopefully, my article will cut through a lot of the difficulties and will make the install go a little faster, since I gathered a lot of information from different sources into one place. Based on experience, the cost of installing Gentoo on VirtualBox was signficantly higher that installing Fedora, especially when Fedora supports VirtualBox right "out of the box" and Gentoo does not. I hope that clarifies things. Ken B. > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From vanaltj-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 14:19:10 2009 From: vanaltj-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Jon VanAlten) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:19:10 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: > > As Gentoo doesn't come with an xorg.conf file--except the sample one > provided with the software and that doesn't support VirtualBox--and X > Windows cannot not run without an xorg.conf file, and Gnome and KDE require > X to run, I find it unlikely that you can get a graphical desktop in > VirtualBox without creating and configuring the X config file. > I don't know at which version this changed, but (for most common hardware) X does not need xorg.conf to run anymore. Hardware is auto-detected at runtime. Now, I don't use Virtualbox so I can't speak to whether its virtualized hardware would be detected correctly... jon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 14:19:45 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:19:45 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4ADC7581.4070409@utoronto.ca> Ken Burtch wrote: >> Huh ??? It took me a few days the first time, way back when, in the >> days of stage 1 installs (the hard way), on a 400 mhz PII, whilst asking >> questions, and waiting for replies on the Gentoo mailing list. With >> stage 3 installs being the preferred method, no way does it take a week. >> I don't understand what is so hard about it. And why were you looking >> up commands on Google when the Gentoo installation docs walk you through >> the process? >> >> Gentoo (actually the current version of xorg-server) does *NOT* >> require an xorg.conf. It's only required for weird setups. > > Thank you, Walter, for your feedback. > > In regards to your statements, if Fedora installs 20 packages and you > argue that if you only install 10 on Gentoo that you can setup Gentoo > just as fast, I think that proves my point that Gentoo is a slower > install. Not installing packages would certainly reduce the time of an > install, and would reduce the number of files Gentoo requires you to > configure by hand. > > Following the Gentoo docs would absolutely lead to a failed installation > on VirtualBox, as the installation process is not identical to a bare > metal install. Failed in terms of your expectations of a bootable linux with a console or with full Xorg? I'm guessing the latter, but for some all that is needed is a working console and login. > As Gentoo doesn't come with an xorg.conf file--except the sample one > provided with the software and that doesn't support VirtualBox--and X > Windows cannot not run without an xorg.conf file, and Gnome and KDE > require X to run, I find it unlikely that you can get a graphical > desktop in VirtualBox without creating and configuring the X config file. There are tools for doing that too, xorgconfig and xorgcfg (tui, gui respectively). But, and I'll get to this in a second, doing things manually up front doesn't hurt in the long term. > To get what I considered a full install of Gentoo on VirtualBox took me > a week. To install the same on Fedora took an hour. Hopefully, my > article will cut through a lot of the difficulties and will make the > install go a little faster, since I gathered a lot of information from > different sources into one place. Now you have a working gentoo install. You won't have to reinstall it every time there's a new release. The amount of time you've just saved isn't quantifiable up front, but think of all the backups and clean installs you won't have to do versus upgrading in place between Fedora releases (which I've never had very good success with, resulting in more time spent fixing the botched upgrade than just doing a new install and copying backups over). > Based on experience, the cost of installing Gentoo on VirtualBox was > signficantly higher that installing Fedora, especially when Fedora > supports VirtualBox right "out of the box" and Gentoo does not. If speaking about costs, as you've discovered there can be time costs up front. But now you know how the system works, don't have to do it again, and have an article to show for it. Not bad in my estimation. Now that you've seen there are different ways to get Gentoo setup, try debootstrap and build a Debian system that way. My guess is that you won't be so put off by Gentoo's method :) That said, I pretty much only use debootstrap for new installs since it is so easy once you get the hang of it. The best part is that Fedora, Gentoo and others all include it so I can Debianize practically any system. Sweet! Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 14:23:26 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: Thanks for the info. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, Jon VanAlten wrote: >> >> As Gentoo doesn't come with an xorg.conf file--except the sample one >> provided with the software and that doesn't support VirtualBox--and X >> Windows cannot not run without an xorg.conf file, and Gnome and KDE require >> X to run, I find it unlikely that you can get a graphical desktop in >> VirtualBox without creating and configuring the X config file. >> > > I don't know at which version this changed, but (for most common > hardware) X does not need xorg.conf to run anymore. Hardware is > auto-detected at runtime. Now, I don't use Virtualbox so I can't > speak to whether its virtualized hardware would be detected > correctly... > > jon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 15:08:31 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:08:31 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4ADC80EF.6010608@tmis.ca> I have done stage3 Gentoo installs at least 50 or more times. It has been about a year since I have installed Gentoo on a regular basis. So now I still get tripped up by 1. selecting the right kernel modules 2. getting the new compiled kernel into /boot without the no kernel found error 3. getting the /dev/sda or /dev/hda right depending on the motherboard Ken Burtch wrote: > > Thanks for the info. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 > "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, Jon VanAlten wrote: > >>> >>> As Gentoo doesn't come with an xorg.conf file--except the sample one >>> provided with the software and that doesn't support VirtualBox--and X >>> Windows cannot not run without an xorg.conf file, and Gnome and KDE >>> require >>> X to run, I find it unlikely that you can get a graphical desktop in >>> VirtualBox without creating and configuring the X config file. >>> >> >> I don't know at which version this changed, but (for most common >> hardware) X does not need xorg.conf to run anymore. Hardware is >> auto-detected at runtime. Now, I don't use Virtualbox so I can't >> speak to whether its virtualized hardware would be detected >> correctly... >> >> jon >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 15:31:55 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:31:55 -0400 Subject: OT: Of Orange Juice and iPods In-Reply-To: <1f13df280910181835q2cf011ebufc0d35404bea14d1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280910181835q2cf011ebufc0d35404bea14d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > A rather bizarre gift has fallen into my hands today: an iPod that > someone decided to pour some Orange Juice on. The proper thing would have been to spill Apple juice on ;) > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://devmentor.org Do Good! ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 16:11:51 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:11:51 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Brandon Sandrowicz wrote: > On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> Not sure even what question to ask, but basically I've got my desktop >> machine with an onboard gigabit ethernet, a Linksys WRT54GL, and a >> multimedia drive connected to my TV which has wireless networking >> built in: >> >> http://www.mediagateusa.com/mg800hd.html >> >> For wireless, it supports: >> >> (Wi-Fi) IEEE 802.11 b/g/n; Wireless Security: WEP, WPA-P5K, WPA2-PSK, >> Wireless infrastructure and Ad-Hoc Mode >> >> I've been seeing transfer speeds around 1.2 MB/s, which is about >> 1/10th what I was hoping/expecting. Was I expecting too much? This is >> the first time this has ever been an issue, so I'm not sure how to >> investigate this. > > Is the drive connecting with 802.11b? ?Try changing your network over > to be 802.11g-only in the router/ap settings. ?Apparently when you are > in mixed mode -- b and g -- if a 802.11b device connects to the > network the entire network speed drops. I'm not sure if this is > AccessPoint-dependent or just a product of the 802.11 wireless > protocol, but I've heard of it. > > Another thing to consider is wireless interference. For example, > 802.11g's max speed of 54Mbit/s, but that is the theoretical max. ?If > there is a lot of interference from other wireless networks, devices, > microwaves in operation, etc, this can effect the speed causing it to > drop. ?Sometimes this is also wireless chip and/or driver dependent. > For example, the ath5k kernel driver doesn't deal with noise as well > as the ath_pci (MadWifi) driver. I've been too lazy to change it back, > but when I connect to the network after getting home from work it > connects/disconnects at least 2 or 3 times before it decides to keep a > stable connection (which is interesting seeing as my laptop is at most > 6 feet from the access point with nothing but air in between). ?I've > also seen claims on mailing lists that the ath5k doesn't run at 'full > speed' compared to the ath_pci driver with the same hardware on the > same network. > > The only thing that you could try to do to deal with interference (at > least interference from other networks) is to try different channels > for your access point, but even then you may have issues. ?Those > 'SuperG' routers that used to be popular basically increased their > bandwidth by using *all channels at once*... creating a helluva lot of > interference for other networks that were too close. Thanks for the info, I looked up the specs for 802.11 and found that what I should be expecting is around 22 Mb/s, so really not much more that I'm seeing now. From all of this, am I correct in assuming that I would be better off connecting the media drive to the network with a cable instead? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 16:30:59 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:30:59 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:11:51PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > Thanks for the info, I looked up the specs for 802.11 and found that > what I should be expecting is around 22 Mb/s, so really not much more > that I'm seeing now. From all of this, am I correct in assuming that I > would be better off connecting the media drive to the network with a > cable instead? Wifi is great for being able to move a laptop around. It totally sucks for anything where you want reliable communications. There are times my network drops to 35KB/s (when I suspect a neighbour decides to use the old crap 2.4GHz phone, given the problem always lasts about 1 to 10 minutes before going back to normal). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 16:47:10 2009 From: bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Brandon Sandrowicz) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:47:10 -0700 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <20091019163059.GA5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Wifi is great for being able to move a laptop around. ?It totally sucks > for anything where you want reliable communications. ?There are times > my network drops to 35KB/s (when I suspect a neighbour decides to use > the old crap 2.4GHz phone, given the problem always lasts about 1 to 10 > minutes before going back to normal). For that time period it could just as well be a microwave too. -- Brandon Sandrowicz -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 16:51:12 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:51:12 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <20091019163059.GA5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADC9900.80305@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > There are times > my network drops to 35KB/s (when I suspect a neighbour decides to use > the old crap 2.4GHz phone, given the problem always lasts about 1 to 10 > minutes before going back to normal). > > One thing a lot of people fail to realize is that the radio spectrum used by WiFi is shared by many things and as an unlicensed service, it is not entitled to any protection from interference. It also may not cause interference to a licensed service. That neighbour's phone may be working fine and may even be interfered with by you. Neither of you would have any recourse on such interference. On the other hand, the 2.4 GHz band partially overlaps an amateur radio band. Since amateur radio is a licensed service, it has absolutely no concerns about interference to WiFi or phones etc., but is entitled to protection from those devices. So, if you were interfering with amateur radio on that band, you'd have to fix the problem, even if it means shutting down completely. If you were interfered with by someone using that amateur band, you'd have no recourse whatsoever. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 16:56:13 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:56:13 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADC9A2D.3030403@rogers.com> Brandon Sandrowicz wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > >> Wifi is great for being able to move a laptop around. It totally sucks >> for anything where you want reliable communications. There are times >> my network drops to 35KB/s (when I suspect a neighbour decides to use >> the old crap 2.4GHz phone, given the problem always lasts about 1 to 10 >> minutes before going back to normal). >> > > For that time period it could just as well be a microwave too. > Again, as I mentioned in a previous message, WiFi, as an unlicensed service, enjoys no protection from such interference. The Industrial, Scientific & Medical (ISM) bands that many unlicensed wireless use must be assumed to be full of interference that has every right to be there. Those bands were originally set up for things like welders, heaters, diathermy machines etc., which generate radio frequency energy, as part of their operation. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 18:49:58 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:49:58 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 09:47:10AM -0700, Brandon Sandrowicz wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > > > Wifi is great for being able to move a laptop around. ?It totally sucks > > for anything where you want reliable communications. ?There are times > > my network drops to 35KB/s (when I suspect a neighbour decides to use > > the old crap 2.4GHz phone, given the problem always lasts about 1 to 10 > > minutes before going back to normal). > > For that time period it could just as well be a microwave too. My microwave doesn't do it. My old phone (years ago) certainly did. Pick up phone totally killed wifi. Microwaves are supposed to be shielded. Cordless phones are supposed to send out 2.4ghz (if that's their band) signals. Many older cheap ones didn't seem to care about being good neighbours however. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 18:51:47 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:51:47 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <4ADC9900.80305-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADC9900.80305@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091019185147.GC5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:51:12PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > There are times > > my network drops to 35KB/s (when I suspect a neighbour decides to use > > the old crap 2.4GHz phone, given the problem always lasts about 1 to 10 > > minutes before going back to normal). > > > > > One thing a lot of people fail to realize is that the radio spectrum > used by WiFi is shared by many things and as an unlicensed service, it > is not entitled to any protection from interference. It also may not > cause interference to a licensed service. That neighbour's phone may be > working fine and may even be interfered with by you. Neither of you > would have any recourse on such interference. On the other hand, the > 2.4 GHz band partially overlaps an amateur radio band. Since amateur > radio is a licensed service, it has absolutely no concerns about > interference to WiFi or phones etc., but is entitled to protection from > those devices. So, if you were interfering with amateur radio on that > band, you'd have to fix the problem, even if it means shutting down > completely. If you were interfered with by someone using that amateur > band, you'd have no recourse whatsoever. Yep, I know. Which is why I would never rely on wifi for anything important. Doesn't mean I can't complain loudly when my wifi dies for a few minutes. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 19:00:16 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:00:16 +0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <20091019184958.GB5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADCB740.4020504@gmail.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 09:47:10AM -0700, Brandon Sandrowicz wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Lennart Sorensen >> wrote: >> >>> Wifi is great for being able to move a laptop around. It totally sucks >>> for anything where you want reliable communications. There are times >>> my network drops to 35KB/s (when I suspect a neighbour decides to use >>> the old crap 2.4GHz phone, given the problem always lasts about 1 to 10 >>> minutes before going back to normal). >>> >> For that time period it could just as well be a microwave too. >> > > My microwave doesn't do it. My old phone (years ago) certainly did. > Pick up phone totally killed wifi. > > Microwaves are supposed to be shielded. Cordless phones are supposed > to send out 2.4ghz (if that's their band) signals. Many older cheap > ones didn't seem to care about being good neighbours however. > It is impossible to entirely shield microwave (which is certainly a health issue as well, not to be ignored at all, only by fools). Its radio-frequency power (inside) is perhaps 10^6 to 10^8 times larger than that of cordless phone. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 19:58:16 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:58:16 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <4ADCB740.4020504-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADCB740.4020504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091019195816.GD5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:00:16PM +0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > It is impossible to entirely shield microwave (which is certainly a > health issue as well, not to be ignored at all, only by fools). Its > radio-frequency power (inside) is perhaps 10^6 to 10^8 times larger than > that of cordless phone. I don't think that's quite right. If my phone is allowed to radiate at 1W, and my microwave is about 1000W, then somehow I think 10^3 is more likely. I know the phone is not as low as 1mW, and I know the microwave can't be more than 1kW, so 10^6 is out, and 10^8 is just completely bonkers. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 19:54:19 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:54:19 +0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <20091019195816.GD5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADCB740.4020504@gmail.com> <20091019195816.GD5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADCC3EB.2020505@gmail.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:00:16PM +0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> It is impossible to entirely shield microwave (which is certainly a >> health issue as well, not to be ignored at all, only by fools). Its >> radio-frequency power (inside) is perhaps 10^6 to 10^8 times larger than >> that of cordless phone. >> > > I don't think that's quite right. > > If my phone is allowed to radiate at 1W, and my microwave is about 1000W, > then somehow I think 10^3 is more likely. > > I know the phone is not as low as 1mW, and I know the microwave can't be > more than 1kW, so 10^6 is out, and 10^8 is just completely bonkers. > > Right, a small mistake on my side. Which however does not change the merit ;) zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 20:21:47 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:21:47 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <20091019184958.GB5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADCCA5B.6000302@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Microwaves are supposed to be shielded. Cordless phones are supposed > to send out 2.4ghz (if that's their band) signals. Many older cheap > ones didn't seem to care about being good neighbours however. > > ???? All those devices have an antenna and are intended to radiate microwaves. That's how they work. The term "microwave" is nothing more than a name referring to the portion of the radio spectrum above 1 GHz. Many consumer devices use microwaves. These include, among others, WiFi, cordless phones, cell phones, baby monitors, ovens etc. Of the items I listed, only microwave ovens arent't supposed to transmit microwave signals as a fundamental part of their operation. With the ovens, they're supposed to be shielded to contain the microwave energy, but a small amount may still escape. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 20:27:54 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:27:54 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <20091019195816.GD5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADCB740.4020504@gmail.com> <20091019195816.GD5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADCCBCA.2060603@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:00:16PM +0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> It is impossible to entirely shield microwave (which is certainly a >> health issue as well, not to be ignored at all, only by fools). Its >> radio-frequency power (inside) is perhaps 10^6 to 10^8 times larger than >> that of cordless phone. >> > > I don't think that's quite right. > > If my phone is allowed to radiate at 1W, and my microwave is about 1000W, > then somehow I think 10^3 is more likely. > > I know the phone is not as low as 1mW, and I know the microwave can't be > more than 1kW, so 10^6 is out, and 10^8 is just completely bonkers. > > I don't think cordless phones transmit that much power. Even cell phones don't. While the old mobile cell phones could do better than 1W, IIRC hand held cell phones are limited to something around 0.5 watt and frequently run much less, as they automagically adjust power level to the minimum required for operation. A ratio of 10^7 is certainly possible. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 20:53:02 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:53:02 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <4ADCC3EB.2020505-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADCB740.4020504@gmail.com> <20091019195816.GD5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADCC3EB.2020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091019205302.GE5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:54:19PM +0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Right, a small mistake on my side. Which however does not change the > merit ;) Certainly a leak of 0.1% on the microwave would probably match the output allowed on the phone, so yes valid point. I still suspect the phone though, based on duration (most people don't run the microwave for 10 minutes), and the time of day it usually happens. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 20:54:27 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:54:27 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <4ADCCA5B.6000302-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADCCA5B.6000302@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091019205427.GF5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 04:21:47PM -0400, James Knott wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Microwaves are supposed to be shielded. Cordless phones are supposed > > to send out 2.4ghz (if that's their band) signals. Many older cheap > > ones didn't seem to care about being good neighbours however. > > > > > > ???? > > All those devices have an antenna and are intended to radiate > microwaves. That's how they work. The term "microwave" is nothing more > than a name referring to the portion of the radio spectrum above 1 GHz. > Many consumer devices use microwaves. These include, among others, > WiFi, cordless phones, cell phones, baby monitors, ovens etc. Of the > items I listed, only microwave ovens arent't supposed to transmit > microwave signals as a fundamental part of their operation. With the > ovens, they're supposed to be shielded to contain the microwave energy, > but a small amount may still escape. microwave _ovens_ are supposed to be shielded. I guess we should be specific. I hope none of the other microwave using devices operate at the 1000W range. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 21:05:03 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:05:03 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <20091019205302.GE5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADCB740.4020504@gmail.com> <20091019195816.GD5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADCC3EB.2020505@gmail.com> <20091019205302.GE5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADCD47F.7070409@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:54:19PM +0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> Right, a small mistake on my side. Which however does not change the >> merit ;) >> > > Certainly a leak of 0.1% on the microwave would probably match the output > allowed on the phone, so yes valid point. I still suspect the phone > though, based on duration (most people don't run the microwave for 10 > minutes), and the time of day it usually happens. > > Actually, I often do. If I'm thawing something, I leave it on for 10 minutes or more at reduced power. I also frequently use the hold warm function. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 21:12:21 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:12:21 -0400 Subject: [kinda OT] home network speed In-Reply-To: <20091019205427.GF5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <712ca2da0910182009n58c9bc2eje399a6682e99fa4c@mail.gmail.com> <20091019163059.GA5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910190947r1c86160l621f3a19733d2df6@mail.gmail.com> <20091019184958.GB5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADCCA5B.6000302@rogers.com> <20091019205427.GF5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADCD635.3060801@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > microwave _ovens_ are supposed to be shielded. I guess we should be > specific. I hope none of the other microwave using devices operate at > the 1000W range. > > Actually, the radio amateur next door could be doing so legally and then running it through a high gain antenna for several more dB. Just last week at work, we were testing some 38 GHz gear for a short haul microwave link. We had it covered in black foam that's designed to absorb microwaves and keep it to safe levels. If you see me and I look like I'm sunburned, that's why! ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 19 23:57:51 2009 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:57:51 -0400 Subject: Laptop Batteries In-Reply-To: <4AD23A81.3030008-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200910111547.31369.mervc@eol.ca> <4AD23A81.3030008@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200910191957.51904.mervc@eol.ca> On Sunday 11 October 2009, Madison Kelly wrote: > Merv Curley wrote: > > A while back this topic came up and someone had a spot in the city which > > had a pretty good selection. My daughter-in-law has a Toshiba laptop > > which needs a new battery and Toshiba don't stock them any more. > > > > I haven't found the location in my copies of list messages, could > > someone remember who it was? > > > > Thanks > > I think it was me (or at least, me plus others). I've gotten batteries > from here: http://www.laptopcloseout.ca > > They were nice, they let me plug in the battery and check how many times > it had been cycled before I bought it. Decent price, too. > > Madi > -- Sorry this has taken a while to say thanks for the sites and warning. Problem solved. Merv -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.10 KMail 1.9.9 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 00:18:13 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:18:13 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20091020001813.GA4834@waltdnes.org> To summarize, a distro that is designed to take full advantage of a bare metal install has problems with an imperfectly-emulated virtual machine. The problem is that Gentoo is running into something it was not designed for. As an experiment, I suggest the following... - follow the instructions for BIOS setup (on the host) required for installing an OS/2 guest (Intel-VT/AMD-V enabled and virtualization enabled in the BIOS) - then try installing Gentoo, it might go a bit easier I'll be getting a netbook soon, which will probably come pre-loaded with Windows. I just might keep the Windows around long enough to try out Gentoo in Virtualbox. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 00:25:59 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:25:59 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? Message-ID: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> Specifically the 11.6" screen Acer Aspireone AO751h-1505 Netbook at http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=024766&cid=NBK.862.670 I intend to eventually install Gentoo on it, although I may experiment with Virtualbox on Windows first as mentioned in another thread. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 01:15:00 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:15:00 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADC7581.4070409-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> <4ADC7581.4070409@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4ADD0F14.3090807@dinamis.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Ken Burtch wrote: >> Based on experience, the cost of installing Gentoo on VirtualBox was >> signficantly higher that installing Fedora, especially when Fedora >> supports VirtualBox right "out of the box" and Gentoo does not. > > If speaking about costs, as you've discovered there can be time costs up > front. But now you know how the system works, don't have to do it again, > and have an article to show for it. Not bad in my estimation. You don't ever have to reinstall Gentoo... until you do. Gentoo is a useful learning tool but I don't have much use for it beyond that. Granted, you don't have glibc changes that require *everything*, including the build toolchain, be rebuilt all over again all the time but when it happens, the results are non-deterministic, or at least they were up to two or three years ago. It didn't take me long to find tales of woe on the Gentoo forums about how many passes people had to make rebuilding things (and one more for good measure!) to (maybe) get everything rebuilt and working. No thanks. I'll pass. Gentoo is nice if you want to create a custom distro that only you can (maybe) maintain. > Now that you've seen there are different ways to get Gentoo setup, try > debootstrap and build a Debian system that way. My guess is that you > won't be so put off by Gentoo's method :) That said, I pretty much only > use debootstrap for new installs since it is so easy once you get the > hang of it. The best part is that Fedora, Gentoo and others all include > it so I can Debianize practically any system. Sweet! Debootstrap in a virtual machine is an excellent way of deploying Debian or its derivatives. That how we deploy both in Xen and OpenVZ virtual machines in our hosting environment. Gentoo and Debian fans criticize Red Hat and derivatives because it (supposedly) can't be upgraded in situ as Gentoo and Debian (supposedly) can be. I've upgraded Fedora servers but I prefer to "nuke 'n pave", especially since it's so trivially easy to do with Cobbler . I've upgraded Debian and Ubuntu servers where I typically don't install X and a desktop manager or such and it worked as advertised. Desktop machines are a different story, no matter what the distro. With the big changes in KDE, for example, upgrading really doesn't get you much since there is no way to migrate some (many?) of the config files anyway. Let me just expand on Cobbler. Last week, I was at a client where I demonstrated a hands-off, bare metal installation of CentOS 5.3, over PXE. From selecting the PXE menu option to having a machine that was ready for use, it was about 20 minutes, and that included creating filesystems on a 1TB disk presented by hardware RAID. (The RAID set had been created prior to the installation. It was left running over the weekend building the array.) Once we had the working CentOS machine, to create another CentOS installation in a Xen virtual machine was a matter of running "koan" and pulling a kickstart installation from the Cobbler server. That took another 10 minutes. By contrast, the first Xen installation I did back in 2005, took me a *week*. I believe the Cobbler approach, particularly if it's used in conjunction with a configuration management system like bcfg2, cfengine, puppet, chef, etc., is a far better solution to systems management than doing in situ upgrades and ad hoc systems administration that often accompanies that practice. If the cost of recreating the environment is so high that you value in situ major upgrades over bare metal installations, you have a problem. You most likely have an environment that can't be replicated in a reasonable amount of time, if it can be replicated at all, which does not bode well for disaster recovery. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 02:02:20 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:02:20 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADD0F14.3090807-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> <4ADC7581.4070409@utoronto.ca> <4ADD0F14.3090807@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <4ADD1A2C.5050603@utoronto.ca> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Jamon Camisso wrote: >> Ken Burtch wrote: >>> Based on experience, the cost of installing Gentoo on VirtualBox was >>> signficantly higher that installing Fedora, especially when Fedora >>> supports VirtualBox right "out of the box" and Gentoo does not. >> >> If speaking about costs, as you've discovered there can be time costs >> up front. But now you know how the system works, don't have to do it >> again, and have an article to show for it. Not bad in my estimation. > > You don't ever have to reinstall Gentoo... until you do. Gentoo is a > useful learning tool but I don't have much use for it beyond that. > Granted, you don't have glibc changes that require *everything*, > including the build toolchain, be rebuilt all over again all the time > but when it happens, the results are non-deterministic, or at least they > were up to two or three years ago. It didn't take me long to find tales > of woe on the Gentoo forums about how many passes people had to make > rebuilding things (and one more for good measure!) to (maybe) get > everything rebuilt and working. No thanks. I'll pass. Gentoo is nice if > you want to create a custom distro that only you can (maybe) maintain. Yep, it can be a headache to maintain more than one or two, especially if they weren't your boxes in the first place. But I expect someone on the list will chime in with the age of their oldest up to date gentoo box that has only had one install in the last X years. Anyone? >> Now that you've seen there are different ways to get Gentoo setup, try >> debootstrap and build a Debian system that way. My guess is that you >> won't be so put off by Gentoo's method :) That said, I pretty much >> only use debootstrap for new installs since it is so easy once you get >> the hang of it. The best part is that Fedora, Gentoo and others all >> include it so I can Debianize practically any system. Sweet! > > Debootstrap in a virtual machine is an excellent way of deploying Debian > or its derivatives. That how we deploy both in Xen and OpenVZ virtual > machines in our hosting environment. I typically build as small an image as I can e.g. working ssh with a key for login and that's it. Small means easily copied and deployed as a new domU for my purposes. > Gentoo and Debian fans criticize Red Hat and derivatives because it > (supposedly) can't be upgraded in situ as Gentoo and Debian (supposedly) > can be. I've upgraded Fedora servers but I prefer to "nuke 'n pave", > especially since it's so trivially easy to do with Cobbler > . I've upgraded Debian and Ubuntu > servers where I typically don't install X and a desktop manager or such > and it worked as advertised. Desktop machines are a different story, no > matter what the distro. With the big changes in KDE, for example, > upgrading really doesn't get you much since there is no way to migrate > some (many?) of the config files anyway. Not sure, I remember being presented with a migration tool when kde4 first came into Squeeze, all my stuff still seems to work as I expect/remember. But in my narrowminded Debian world, I have no idea how well it would work in Fedora for example. > Let me just expand on Cobbler. Last week, I was at a client where I > demonstrated a hands-off, bare metal installation of CentOS 5.3, over > PXE. From selecting the PXE menu option to having a machine that was > ready for use, it was about 20 minutes, and that included creating > filesystems on a 1TB disk presented by hardware RAID. (The RAID set had > been created prior to the installation. It was left running over the > weekend building the array.) LOM+PXE boot is awesome. I've recently started using it with ipmi on host servers for clustering filesystems too (gfs2 as it turns out, ocfs2 noes seemed prone to dropping out of the cluster). Really fun stuff. Also r.e. PXE boot, the linuxcaffe was making extensive use of it for a while and it seemed to work really well. XDMCP is being used now I think since it isn't as hardware dependent. I haven't tried it, but http://boot.kernel.org looks neat (as long as you trust it, which I don't particularly). > Once we had the working CentOS machine, to create another CentOS > installation in a Xen virtual machine was a matter of running "koan" and > pulling a kickstart installation from the Cobbler server. That took > another 10 minutes. By contrast, the first Xen installation I did back > in 2005, took me a *week*. There is a pretty steep Xen learning curve, and building newer dom0 pv_ops enabled kernels is a black art to me still. Can't wait until the code goes into mainline kernel.org sources, see http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps for more on that. > I believe the Cobbler approach, particularly if it's used in conjunction > with a configuration management system like bcfg2, cfengine, puppet, > chef, etc., is a far better solution to systems management than doing in > situ upgrades and ad hoc systems administration that often accompanies > that practice. If the cost of recreating the environment is so high that > you value in situ major upgrades over bare metal installations, you have > a problem. You most likely have an environment that can't be replicated > in a reasonable amount of time, if it can be replicated at all, which > does not bode well for disaster recovery. Cobbler does look useful for installs, better than virt-manager I suppose? Will have to look into it some more. I'm not sure I agree with you about upgrades though. For systems I'm working on in an academic research setting, where developers are used to playing with shiny new code for their research, domU is unique enough that it usually requires some hands on work to maintain. Especially since there isn't just one distribution in use. I'm not sure how cfengine could help automate upgrades in this particular (albeit somewhat unique?) setting. For us, rsnapshots really help with replicating an install to a given point in time. I haven't used anaconda and kickstart so I don't know how it handles config files, but rsnapshot for pitr on fibre channel disks seems fast enough that there isn't much cost timewise if something goes terribly wrong. But then having root on a domU (and having a non-uniform target for images) isn't a given so I can see your point. In the end I guess it is a matter of different user bases and requirements. In environments like these there is no one size fits all solution, so knowing Cobbler is out there will be a handy thing indeed, thanks for the explanation. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 02:18:38 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:18:38 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADD1A2C.5050603-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> <4ADC7581.4070409@utoronto.ca> <4ADD0F14.3090807@dinamis.com> <4ADD1A2C.5050603@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4ADD1DFE.8030701@dinamis.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Cobbler does look useful for installs, better than virt-manager I > suppose? Will have to look into it some more. I'm not sure I agree with > you about upgrades though. Cobbler can also do upgrades, by the way. > For systems I'm working on in an academic > research setting, where developers are used to playing with shiny new > code for their research, domU is unique enough that it usually requires > some hands on work to maintain. bcfg2 was built at Argonne National Labs to address similar needs so you might want to take a look at it. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 03:01:25 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:01:25 -0400 Subject: OT: Humor Funny Video.... Message-ID: <4ADD2805.7040001@gmail.com> Apparently the word on the mailing list is this guy tried to install Gentoo on VirtualBox. After a week he made it out of the house barely alive looking for something to revive him back to life! Safe to watch at work ;) ... no naked Tux girl.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZQsA7G0hvQ&feature Friends don't let friends install Gentoo ;) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 03:55:21 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:55:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Humor Funny Video.... In-Reply-To: <4ADD2805.7040001-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4ADD2805.7040001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADD34A9.2070305@gmail.com> Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Apparently the word on the mailing list is this guy tried to install > Gentoo on VirtualBox. After a week he made it out of the house barely > alive looking for something to revive him back to life! > > Safe to watch at work ;) ... no naked Tux girl.... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZQsA7G0hvQ&feature > > Friends don't let friends install Gentoo ;) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > My Apology to Ken, this has nothing to with his excellent technical article..but I needed a Segue ;) -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 11:36:31 2009 From: kalibslack-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Marcelo Cavalcante) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:36:31 -0300 Subject: OT: Humor Funny Video.... In-Reply-To: <4ADD34A9.2070305-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4ADD2805.7040001@gmail.com> <4ADD34A9.2070305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1089a0320910200436m2edb2439qfda8c19f37705e52@mail.gmail.com> I like this one.. Thanks Linux... Now we can enjoy our beer and let our baby sleeping and dreaming.. :p http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYcF_xX2DE8 cheers --- - ??v? ? Marcelo Cavalcante Rocha / Kalib - /(_)\ ?ITIL V3 Foundation Certified | Certified Scrum Master - ?^ ^ ? Usu?rio Linux #407564 / Usu?rio Asterisk #1148 - GNU-Linux - Livre, Poderoso e Seguro - TUX-CE Member - www.tux-ce.org - Archlinux-br Developer Team - http://archlinux-br.org - KDE Brasil Member - TLUG Member - Toronto Linux User Group - http://www.marcelocavalcante.net On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:55 AM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > > Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> >> Apparently the word on the mailing list is this guy tried to install Gentoo on VirtualBox. After a week he made it out of the house barely alive looking for something to revive him back to life! >> >> Safe to watch at work ;) ... no naked Tux girl.... >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZQsA7G0hvQ&feature >> >> Friends don't let friends install Gentoo ;) >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > My Apology to Ken, this has nothing to with his excellent technical article..but I needed a Segue ;) > > -- > Kind Regards, > Rajinder Yadav > > http://DevMentor.org > Do Good ~ Share Freely > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 12:34:57 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:34:57 -0400 Subject: OT: Humor Funny Video.... In-Reply-To: <4ADD2805.7040001-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <4ADD2805.7040001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570910200534o627faed3n4c5fb31559a70d4a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: > Apparently the word on the mailing list is this guy tried to install Gentoo > on VirtualBox. After a week he made it out of the house barely alive looking > for something to revive him back to life! > > Safe to watch at work ;) ... no naked Tux girl.... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZQsA7G0hvQ&feature > > Friends don't let friends install Gentoo ;) > -- Here's the full version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh6oGwOMVeY However, I prefer the music in the version you linked to. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 14:06:06 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:06:06 -0500 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091020002559.GA5029-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: I have an Acer Aspire 4720 Z running fine under Debian (dual booting Vista, simply for RDP, which worked under Vista but I never actually got going on a Linux platform - no longer needed as that job ended). I originally loaded Ubuntu, but I had a number of (Ubuntu) issues and eventually got tired of fixing them. Debian has been fine, very few problems. Can't comment on your model. Regards, Colin On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 7:25 PM, wrote: > ?Specifically the 11.6" screen Acer Aspireone AO751h-1505 Netbook at > http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=024766&cid=NBK.862.670 > > ?I intend to eventually install Gentoo on it, although I may experiment > with Virtualbox on Windows first as mentioned in another thread. > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 14:53:45 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:53:45 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091020002559.GA5029-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 08:25:59PM -0400, waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote: > Specifically the 11.6" screen Acer Aspireone AO751h-1505 Netbook at > http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=024766&cid=NBK.862.670 > > I intend to eventually install Gentoo on it, although I may experiment > with Virtualbox on Windows first as mentioned in another thread. I really really wish intel would stop being such assholes and stop making chips without 64bit support. These days wtih 2 to 4GB ram becoming normal even in laptops, 32bit only cpus are totally stupid. Right now for the atom the 64bit capable chips are: 230 (1600MHz single core, HT) D410 (1667MHz single core, HT, integrated GPU and memory controller) 330 (1600MHz dual core, HT) D510 (1667MHz dual core, HT, integrated GPU and memory controller) None of the Nxxx and Zxxx support 64bit. Strangely though the Z520, Z530, Z540 and Z550 support virtualization though. Somehow that seems like it would be more useful on a machine able to use more ram than a 32bit chip can use. Of course I have yet to see any netbooks with any of the 4 nice 64bit atom chips in them. Well hopefully next year there could be little netbooks with the loongson-3/godson-3 processor (1GHz 4 core 64bit MIPS, at 10W TDP). That would be interesting (it will totally outrun the current atom chips by a large margin). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 15:00:14 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:00:14 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADD0F14.3090807-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> <4ADC7581.4070409@utoronto.ca> <4ADD0F14.3090807@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20091020150014.GH5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 09:15:00PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > You don't ever have to reinstall Gentoo... until you do. Gentoo is a > useful learning tool but I don't have much use for it beyond that. > Granted, you don't have glibc changes that require *everything*, > including the build toolchain, be rebuilt all over again all the time > but when it happens, the results are non-deterministic, or at least they > were up to two or three years ago. It didn't take me long to find tales > of woe on the Gentoo forums about how many passes people had to make > rebuilding things (and one more for good measure!) to (maybe) get > everything rebuilt and working. No thanks. I'll pass. Gentoo is nice if > you want to create a custom distro that only you can (maybe) maintain. I don't consider gentoo a good learning tool. I believe you learn a lot more by poking at a well designed distribution and learning how a really good design works and how it manages packages and keeps track of everything. Watching a compiler and make do it's thing teaches you nothing useful. It is quite boring in fact. > Debootstrap in a virtual machine is an excellent way of deploying Debian > or its derivatives. That how we deploy both in Xen and OpenVZ virtual > machines in our hosting environment. > > Gentoo and Debian fans criticize Red Hat and derivatives because it > (supposedly) can't be upgraded in situ as Gentoo and Debian (supposedly) > can be. I've upgraded Fedora servers but I prefer to "nuke 'n pave", > especially since it's so trivially easy to do with Cobbler > . I've upgraded Debian and Ubuntu > servers where I typically don't install X and a desktop manager or such > and it worked as advertised. Desktop machines are a different story, no > matter what the distro. With the big changes in KDE, for example, > upgrading really doesn't get you much since there is no way to migrate > some (many?) of the config files anyway. Funny claim. I have never reinstalled a debian machine. It has never been necesary. My oldest currently running install was done in 1999. I don't even know how many debian releases it has been through by now. To me a reinstall is a sign of a very flawed distribution that isn't well tested and isn't well designed. With a proper system you can upgrade the system while in use and most of the time the users of that system won't even notice it happening. > Let me just expand on Cobbler. Last week, I was at a client where I > demonstrated a hands-off, bare metal installation of CentOS 5.3, over > PXE. From selecting the PXE menu option to having a machine that was > ready for use, it was about 20 minutes, and that included creating > filesystems on a 1TB disk presented by hardware RAID. (The RAID set had > been created prior to the installation. It was left running over the > weekend building the array.) > > Once we had the working CentOS machine, to create another CentOS > installation in a Xen virtual machine was a matter of running "koan" and > pulling a kickstart installation from the Cobbler server. That took > another 10 minutes. By contrast, the first Xen installation I did back > in 2005, took me a *week*. > > I believe the Cobbler approach, particularly if it's used in conjunction > with a configuration management system like bcfg2, cfengine, puppet, > chef, etc., is a far better solution to systems management than doing in > situ upgrades and ad hoc systems administration that often accompanies > that practice. If the cost of recreating the environment is so high that > you value in situ major upgrades over bare metal installations, you have > a problem. You most likely have an environment that can't be replicated > in a reasonable amount of time, if it can be replicated at all, which > does not bode well for disaster recovery. Being able to do multiple installs from a template is nice. It is no excuse for not making upgrades just work though. Using it as an excuse for why you don't have to support upgrades properly is simply crap. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 19:04:43 2009 From: gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jing) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:04:43 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091020145345.GG5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I really really wish intel would stop being such assholes and stop making > chips without 64bit support. ?These days wtih 2 to 4GB ram becoming > normal even in laptops, 32bit only cpus are totally stupid. Completely innocent question out of curiosity; why all the craze for 64-bit processors? I personally don't understand this request for 64-bit machines for average users. Yes, I understand there may be some out there writing monster scientific or DB applications and what-not that require big memory spaces on monster servers. But I just don't see how Firefox, OpenOffice, or MSOffice need 64-bits. I don't even understand why people are asking for 64-bit machines on laptops. As I understand it, current Intel 32-bit machines are not limited to only 4GB of RAM by enabling PAE. Thus, the OS is more than capable of supporting and servicing more than 4GB of ram. What a 32-bit machine cannot do, is it cannot allow a single process to address more than 32-bits of address space. Thus, the extra ram will have to be distributed to feeding more than one application. For example, Firefox gets 4GB of memory, and OpenOffice gets 4GB of memory, and there's no swapping on an 8GB machine (oversimplified, but not too far off, I hope). Much of what makes a system run smoothly is caching and buffering, which is managed by the OS anyways so it's not like the app itself needs to address more than 32-bits of address space. I think I would be worried about the underlying design of Firefox if it started asking for more than 32-bits of address space as a fundamental requirement. Again, I know there are people out there running big DBs and scientific genome computations and what-not. You know who you are and you know you have big iron requirements, and there are machines you can buy for that. I'm curious about average users that want 64-bits. So this goes back to my original question. I hear from many people (especially consumer users) who push for 64-bit machines. Why? You can still pop more ram into it (AFAIK) and the OS still uses all the extra ram just fine. The PAE-enabled 32-bit Linux kernel can service up to 64GB of RAM (again, AFAIK). It seems like extra bits mean extra transistors and extra power burn, especially for laptops. Furthermore, special-case uses are covered by special registers already -- for example 64 and 128-bit FPUs and even some 256-bit SIMD units. So why the push for 64-bits on everything? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 19:33:37 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:33:37 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 03:04:43PM -0400, jing wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > I really really wish intel would stop being such assholes and stop making > > chips without 64bit support. ?These days wtih 2 to 4GB ram becoming > > normal even in laptops, 32bit only cpus are totally stupid. > > Completely innocent question out of curiosity; why all the craze for > 64-bit processors? I personally don't understand this request for > 64-bit machines for average users. Yes, I understand there may be > some out there writing monster scientific or DB applications and > what-not that require big memory spaces on monster servers. But I > just don't see how Firefox, OpenOffice, or MSOffice need 64-bits. I > don't even understand why people are asking for 64-bit machines on > laptops. Well a few simple reasons: x86-64 is a better instruction set, and runs faster except in a few odd cases. This is very different from pretty much every other architecture that has ever gone from 32 to 64bit. Most slow down. x86-64 mandates the use of SSE for floating point, while x86 uses x87. This makes floating point much much faster, and avoids the awfullness that is the x87 stack based FPU. This means all 64bit software can safely use SSE because it is a part of the instruction set. x86 code can not assume that if it wants to just work. 64bit mode also gets 64bit registers, twice as many registers, and a number of other nice cleanups to make code run faster in general. To some extent the extra memory space of x86-64 is just a bonus, the real feature is the much nicer instruction set AMD designed. Intel has always just piled on new features. AMD actually threw away legacy garbage from x86 when in 64bit mode. Best thing to ever happen to the x86. You get simple direct access to more than 3GB of ram, and each application can use more than 2GB, including memory mapping files, which allows for simpler and more efficient code when dealing with large files. Most desktop machines these days come with 2+GB of ram, often 4 or 6GB, which means a 32bit OS simply doesn't work anymore. So the move has to happen, and once the common desktop moves, a lot of software is going to go 64bit. Why would you want your brand new machine to be obsolete out of the box? You may not have more than 2GB ram now, but 6 month from now they might have 4GB, and you still would like to be able to run software on your machine a couple of years from now. > As I understand it, current Intel 32-bit machines are not limited to > only 4GB of RAM by enabling PAE. Thus, the OS is more than capable of > supporting and servicing more than 4GB of ram. What a 32-bit machine > cannot do, is it cannot allow a single process to address more than > 32-bits of address space. Thus, the extra ram will have to be > distributed to feeding more than one application. For example, > Firefox gets 4GB of memory, and OpenOffice gets 4GB of memory, and > there's no swapping on an 8GB machine (oversimplified, but not too far > off, I hope). Much of what makes a system run smoothly is caching and > buffering, which is managed by the OS anyways so it's not like the app > itself needs to address more than 32-bits of address space. PAE is a disgusting hack, has very high overhead, and is no solution. Still doesn't allow more than 2GB of memory space for each application. You are better off loosing 800MB on a 32bit OS out of 4GB than to turn on PAE. Much better. > I think I would be worried about the underlying design of Firefox if > it started asking for more than 32-bits of address space as a > fundamental requirement. Again, I know there are people out there > running big DBs and scientific genome computations and what-not. You > know who you are and you know you have big iron requirements, and > there are machines you can buy for that. I'm curious about average > users that want 64-bits. Oh firefox has issues, and it practically already tries to use that much ram. > So this goes back to my original question. I hear from many people > (especially consumer users) who push for 64-bit machines. Why? You > can still pop more ram into it (AFAIK) and the OS still uses all the > extra ram just fine. The PAE-enabled 32-bit Linux kernel can service > up to 64GB of RAM (again, AFAIK). It seems like extra bits mean extra > transistors and extra power burn, especially for laptops. > Furthermore, special-case uses are covered by special registers > already -- for example 64 and 128-bit FPUs and even some 256-bit SIMD > units. So why the push for 64-bits on everything? It does NOT use it just fine. It uses it at a serious performance hit, and only by running many applications at once can you actually use the memory. PAE is only useful for database servers where more ram at a lower speed was still better than less ram. It is not a good solution if you actually want performance. The sooner all machines are 64bit capable the better. Why intel decided to make 32bit only atoms is beyond my imagination given all their other CPUs already have 64bit support. Of course AMD is starting to make lower power Athlon II chips now, so perhaps this will make intel rethink things for the better. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 20 20:00:28 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:00:28 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <20091020150014.GH5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> <4ADC7581.4070409@utoronto.ca> <4ADD0F14.3090807@dinamis.com> <20091020150014.GH5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADE16DC.1060402@dinamis.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I don't consider gentoo a good learning tool. I believe you learn a > lot more by poking at a well designed distribution and learning how a > really good design works and how it manages packages and keeps track > of everything. That wouldn't/didn't teach me a thing about how to do bootstrap installations. > Watching a compiler and make do it's thing teaches you > nothing useful. It is quite boring in fact. Agreed, that part wasn't a particularly useful learning exercise. However, getting Gentoo to the point where I could boot a Gentoo kernel was a worthwhile learning experience for me. Much of the complexity of installation is hidden behind tui or gui interfaces in most other distros (and that's a good thing) but it was useful to learn what goes on behind the scenes. >> Debootstrap in a virtual machine is an excellent way of deploying Debian >> or its derivatives. That how we deploy both in Xen and OpenVZ virtual >> machines in our hosting environment. >> >> Gentoo and Debian fans criticize Red Hat and derivatives because it >> (supposedly) can't be upgraded in situ as Gentoo and Debian (supposedly) >> can be. I've upgraded Fedora servers but I prefer to "nuke 'n pave", >> especially since it's so trivially easy to do with Cobbler >> . I've upgraded Debian and Ubuntu >> servers where I typically don't install X and a desktop manager or such >> and it worked as advertised. Desktop machines are a different story, no >> matter what the distro. With the big changes in KDE, for example, >> upgrading really doesn't get you much since there is no way to migrate >> some (many?) of the config files anyway. > > Funny claim. I have never reinstalled a debian machine. It has never > been necesary. My oldest currently running install was done in 1999. > I don't even know how many debian releases it has been through by now. > > To me a reinstall is a sign of a very flawed distribution that isn't > well tested and isn't well designed. With a proper system you can > upgrade the system while in use and most of the time the users of that > system won't even notice it happening. With a "proper" system, the cost of reinstalling won't be so high that you think that "rolling updates/upgrades" are The One True Way. Having the option, but not the obligation, to do repeatable, fresh installs is a very good thing. That shouldn't preclude you from doing in situ updates and upgrades. >> Let me just expand on Cobbler. Last week, I was at a client where I >> demonstrated a hands-off, bare metal installation of CentOS 5.3, over >> PXE. From selecting the PXE menu option to having a machine that was >> ready for use, it was about 20 minutes, and that included creating >> filesystems on a 1TB disk presented by hardware RAID. (The RAID set had >> been created prior to the installation. It was left running over the >> weekend building the array.) >> >> Once we had the working CentOS machine, to create another CentOS >> installation in a Xen virtual machine was a matter of running "koan" and >> pulling a kickstart installation from the Cobbler server. That took >> another 10 minutes. By contrast, the first Xen installation I did back >> in 2005, took me a *week*. >> >> I believe the Cobbler approach, particularly if it's used in conjunction >> with a configuration management system like bcfg2, cfengine, puppet, >> chef, etc., is a far better solution to systems management than doing in >> situ upgrades and ad hoc systems administration that often accompanies >> that practice. If the cost of recreating the environment is so high that >> you value in situ major upgrades over bare metal installations, you have >> a problem. You most likely have an environment that can't be replicated >> in a reasonable amount of time, if it can be replicated at all, which >> does not bode well for disaster recovery. > > Being able to do multiple installs from a template is nice. It is no > excuse for not making upgrades just work though. Using it as an excuse > for why you don't have to support upgrades properly is simply crap. It isn't "an excuse for why you don't have to support upgrades properly". You can still do in situ updates/upgrades with yum, just like you can with apt-get. Cobbler helps manage that. I can wake up a machine across the network and do a repeatable install or update without touching that machine. I know about and have done preseed installations for Debian/Ubuntu and aside from the fact that they're more complex and not as well documented as kickstart, I don't know of a tool like Cobbler for Debian/Ubuntu. If one exists, we'd use it because we happily use Debian and derivatives, too and we need something like it there. The creators of Red Hat and derivatives have made more effort addressing manageability than the creators of Debian and derivatives, which isn't surprising given that Red Hat targets and is used by organizations that are bound to have such problems to address. I think Debian is used in some large compute clusters where the manageability problems are similar, hence debootstrap, but there are capabilities missing in debootstrap that tools like Cobbler and Spacewalk are attempting to address. Ubuntu, despite what Canonical may claim, isn't really ready for "the enterprise". We have a client with a Canonical support contract. It's a waste of money as far as I can tell because the moment you stray away from what they consider to be "the standard", e.g. deploying PHP apps via fcgi vs. mod_php, they throw up their hands and say, "Oh, we can't provide support for that." -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 01:54:59 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:54:59 -0400 Subject: "World of Goo" for Linux Message-ID: The game "World of Goo" is being offered on a "pay what you think it is worth" basis, details to be seen here: www.2dboy.com/games.php Yes, it is available for Linux (as a .deb, .rpm or tar.gz file) as well as those other platforms... Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 02:57:30 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091020193337.GI5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | x86-64 mandates the use of SSE for floating point, while x86 uses x87. The AMD 64-bit architecture supports the old-style FP. The Linux and MS Windows ABIs have chosen not to do so. | This makes floating point much much faster, and avoids the awfullness | that is the x87 stack based FPU. I've not seen why x87 stack-based FPU implementations had to be slow. Perhaps it is the NaN (signaling and non-signalling) and denorm support is expensive. Is that gone from SSE? | Most desktop machines these days come with 2+GB of ram, often 4 or 6GB, | which means a 32bit OS simply doesn't work anymore. Actually, too many computer systems built by big-name manufacturers have top out at 4G just because 32-bit WinXP and Vista don't even manage to use all of that. In other words, the requirements of a stupidly constrained OS encourage limited hardware. Luckily MS has declared 64-bit to be required for Windows 7 branding. They have held us back but are now kicking the industry forward. (I've been running x86-64 for 4 or 5 years. Linux was ready rather quickly for the transition.) I think that MS has been a little better this time than for the 16->32 bit transition. The hacks for addressability that DOS and Windows users had to endure were horrible (users didn't seem to blame the perpetrator). | PAE is a disgusting hack, has very high overhead, and is no solution. PAE is standard practice, repeated each time memory grows beyond address space. I remember bank switching on the PDP-8 when memory grew beyond 4K 12-bit words of core memory. Unix as we know it grew for years on the PDP-11 with 16-bit addresses but a wider address bus. In fact PAE was designed long before most of us needed it which made the transition orderly. It came out with the Pentium Pro! | Still doesn't allow more than 2GB of memory space for each application. Carefully crafted applications can use more than 2GB of memory on a PAE system. They can use system calls to switch stuff in and out of the address space. Some applications (eg. DB systems, OSes) are so hungry for memory that they will work hard to get it. | You are better off loosing 800MB on a 32bit OS out of 4GB than to turn | on PAE. Much better. Really? The few real world reports of the performance hit for PAE haven't been extreme. | The sooner all machines are 64bit capable the better. Why intel decided | to make 32bit only atoms is beyond my imagination given all their other | CPUs already have 64bit support. Of course AMD is starting to make lower | power Athlon II chips now, so perhaps this will make intel rethink things | for the better. Technical issues are one thing. Business factors are key to understanding this. It is important to realize that Intel has very good technical people and if they do something dumb technically, it is often for business reasons (not always). The following is "reverse engineered" logic: it may not be true, but it makes sense to me. Intel wanted to push everyone into ia64 (Itanium) which they would own rather than x86 where they had to compete with other suppliers. What better way than slow starvation of being limited to 32-bits in x86. There were strong rumours that Intel had designed a 64-bit x86 for the P4 generation. But they suppressed it. Further rumours suggested that this architecture was very close to the AMD64. AMD had nothing to lose and much to win with a 64-bit x86 architecture. They would have won even more if Microsoft had followed through with their promise to support the new architecture well and promptly. The "bullet point" of supporting AMD 64 did cause a few sales. And so did Linux support. But all that was insignificant in the sea of PC sales. They did make real inroads into the server world, but even that was slow because that world is conservative (for good reasons and bad). Back to Atom: Intel and Microsoft both feared the Atom might cannibalize their mainstream sales (they apparently actually have). Each company crippled Atom systems in different ways to prevent this. - Microsoft limits the sales of WinXP to netbooks with certain severe limitations (screen size, RAM, and processor, I think). - Intel will not sell bare Atoms to anyone who will not sign a license that restricts on their use. I don't remember all the limititations. If anyone gets close to competing with Atom, the Atom will suddenly get more powerful or the agreements will be more liberal. We already saw how Linux on netbooks forced MS to rethink the rules they imposed on their customers (the computer manufacturers). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 03:06:30 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:06:30 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091020193337.GI5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 03:33:37PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > x86-64 is a better instruction set, and runs faster except in a > few odd cases. This is very different from pretty much every other > architecture that has ever gone from 32 to 64bit. Most slow down. This, and a lot of your other points are valid for heavy-duty tasks. But I'm talking about buying a *NETBOOK* fer-cryin-out-loud. Many of your arguments are equivalant to urging potential buyers of subcompacts to buy a Hummer instead. If I was doing stuff that needed that much ram and cpu power, I wouldn't be looking at a netbook in the first place. > x86-64 mandates the use of SSE for floating point, while x86 uses x87. > This makes floating point much much faster, and avoids the awfullness > that is the x87 stack based FPU. This means all 64bit software can > safely use SSE because it is a part of the instruction set. x86 code > can not assume that if it wants to just work. Long live Gentoo. From my /etc/make.conf (yes, I'm running 32 bits) CFLAGS="-O2 -march=prescott -mmmx -msse -msse2 -msse3 -mfpmath=sse -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe" > Most desktop machines these days come with 2+GB of ram, often 4 or > 6GB, which means a 32bit OS simply doesn't work anymore. So the move > has to happen, and once the common desktop moves, a lot of software > is going to go 64bit. Why would you want your brand new machine to > be obsolete out of the box? You may not have more than 2GB ram now, > but 6 month from now they might have 4GB, and you still would like to > be able to run software on your machine a couple of years from now. Since the Open Source world does have open source, this allows distros like Gentoo to compile apps from tarballs to a variety of architectures. There are currently handbooks for installing Gentoo on x86, sparc, amd64, ppc, ppc64, alpha, hppa, mips, ia64, and arm. Given that sparc, ppc, alpha, hppa, and mips are still being supported now, I'm sure that x86 support will continue for a long while. If I was buying a machine for running Windows, your argument might be more valid. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 03:58:58 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:58:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Humor Funny Video.... In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910200534o627faed3n4c5fb31559a70d4a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4ADD2805.7040001@gmail.com> <7c50d3570910200534o627faed3n4c5fb31559a70d4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADE8702.3050208@gmail.com> Michael Lauzon wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote: >> Apparently the word on the mailing list is this guy tried to install Gentoo >> on VirtualBox. After a week he made it out of the house barely alive looking >> for something to revive him back to life! >> >> Safe to watch at work ;) ... no naked Tux girl.... >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZQsA7G0hvQ&feature >> >> Friends don't let friends install Gentoo ;) >> -- > > > Here's the full version: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh6oGwOMVeY > > However, I prefer the music in the version you linked to. The clip made it on to Jay Leno tonight and I started cracking up for the nth time! It seems I am easily amused =) -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 03:59:53 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:59:53 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091021030630.GC4883-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4ADE8739.9070801@rogers.com> waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote: > This, and a lot of your other points are valid for heavy-duty tasks. > But I'm talking about buying a *NETBOOK* fer-cryin-out-loud. Many of > your arguments are equivalant to urging potential buyers of subcompacts > to buy a Hummer instead. If I was doing stuff that needed that much > ram and cpu power, I wouldn't be looking at a netbook in the first > place. You might like to read this thread from the Mepis forums that includes a detailed how to on installing Mepis 8 on an Acer Aspire One. http://www.mepislovers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23438 hth John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 12:23:50 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:23:50 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADEFD56.7080407@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I think that MS has been a little better this time than for the 16->32 > bit transition. The hacks for addressability that DOS and Windows > users had to endure were horrible (users didn't seem to blame the > perpetrator). > Most people simply didn't know better. I was working with VAX/VMS on a VAX 11/780 long before I ever touched a "PC" and knew better. > | PAE is a disgusting hack, has very high overhead, and is no solution. > > PAE is standard practice, repeated each time memory grows beyond > address space. I remember bank switching on the PDP-8 when memory > grew beyond 4K 12-bit words of core memory. Unix as we know it grew > for years on the PDP-11 with 16-bit addresses but a wider address bus. > I remember "overlays" on a Date General Nova, using a head per track disk (all of 256 or 512KB). There was also a memory mapping board for the DG Eclipse that allowed much more than the base 32K 16 bit words. Of course, in the PC world, there was everybody's favourite, the LIM boards, which provided a more or less standard method of memory mapping. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 15:33:32 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:33:32 -0400 Subject: OT: CRTC issues ruling on net neutrality Message-ID: <7c50d3570910210833j2a598481x3bd84e739f9fad96@mail.gmail.com> The CRTC has issued a highly anticipated ruling on net neutrality, saying internet service providers should shape internet traffic only as a last resort. The ruling says ISPs should instead manage traffic through "economic measures," or by setting transparent download limits that consumers can choose between. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 16:07:41 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:07:41 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091021160741.GJ5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 10:57:30PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The AMD 64-bit architecture supports the old-style FP. The Linux and > MS Windows ABIs have chosen not to do so. And AMD recommended that too. They have even said in the spec that future x86-64 CPUs may drop the support if they drop 32bit support. The x86-64 instruction set has x87 instructions listed as optional. They are only required for x86 support. > | This makes floating point much much faster, and avoids the awfullness > | that is the x87 stack based FPU. > > I've not seen why x87 stack-based FPU implementations had to be slow. Because the stack means memory access which means slower than registers. The CPUs try to fake it but you just can't do it as efficiently as if the compiler has direct control over what goes in what register. > Perhaps it is the NaN (signaling and non-signalling) and denorm > support is expensive. Is that gone from SSE? Well dropping the stupid 80but floating point support is a bonus too. Using the pretty much standard 64bit that everyone else has is just better. Fits in a more sensible memory size too. > Actually, too many computer systems built by big-name manufacturers > have top out at 4G just because 32-bit WinXP and Vista don't even > manage to use all of that. In other words, the requirements of a > stupidly constrained OS encourage limited hardware. That too. 4 or 6GB ram costs almost nothing these days. > Luckily MS has declared 64-bit to be required for Windows 7 branding. > They have held us back but are now kicking the industry forward. > > (I've been running x86-64 for 4 or 5 years. Linux was ready rather > quickly for the transition.) Yes, about time too. Linux users have been doing 64bit since forever. > I think that MS has been a little better this time than for the 16->32 > bit transition. The hacks for addressability that DOS and Windows > users had to endure were horrible (users didn't seem to blame the > perpetrator). Well much to my surprise, there is still windows software out there using 16bit code which can't even run on 64bit windows (although it apparently should run in XP mode on 64bit windows 7). > PAE is standard practice, repeated each time memory grows beyond > address space. I remember bank switching on the PDP-8 when memory > grew beyond 4K 12-bit words of core memory. Unix as we know it grew > for years on the PDP-11 with 16-bit addresses but a wider address bus. That doesn't mean it isn't a bad solution compared to natively using a larger address space. > In fact PAE was designed long before most of us needed it which made > the transition orderly. It came out with the Pentium Pro! Yes it did, and it still doesn't perform very well. > Carefully crafted applications can use more than 2GB of memory on a > PAE system. They can use system calls to switch stuff in and out of > the address space. Some applications (eg. DB systems, OSes) are so > hungry for memory that they will work hard to get it. True, but at the same time on a 64bit OS they don't have to do that making for simpler and faster code. > | You are better off loosing 800MB on a 32bit OS out of 4GB than to turn > | on PAE. Much better. > > Really? The few real world reports of the performance hit for PAE > haven't been extreme. As far as I recall from reading about it, 10 to 15% overhead for PAE is not unusual. > Technical issues are one thing. Business factors are key to > understanding this. It is important to realize that Intel has very > good technical people and if they do something dumb technically, it is > often for business reasons (not always). Well they did make the pentium 4.... Just because marketing thinks it is a good idea, doesn't mean it is. > The following is "reverse engineered" logic: it may not be true, but > it makes sense to me. > > Intel wanted to push everyone into ia64 (Itanium) which they would own > rather than x86 where they had to compete with other suppliers. What > better way than slow starvation of being limited to 32-bits in x86. Of course, although even intel by now realizes that isn't going to ever happen. > There were strong rumours that Intel had designed a 64-bit x86 for the > P4 generation. But they suppressed it. Further rumours suggested > that this architecture was very close to the AMD64. They were working on one, but microsoft told them that there would be only one x86 64bit windows, and it would be the AMD design. > AMD had nothing to lose and much to win with a 64-bit x86 > architecture. They would have won even more if Microsoft had followed > through with their promise to support the new architecture well and > promptly. Well 64bit xp betas were in use by many 3D graphics places very soon after the 64bit AMDs came out. It took a long time to get a final release out though. > The "bullet point" of supporting AMD 64 did cause a few sales. And so > did Linux support. But all that was insignificant in the sea of PC > sales. They did make real inroads into the server world, but even > that was slow because that world is conservative (for good reasons and > bad). > > Back to Atom: > > Intel and Microsoft both feared the Atom might cannibalize their > mainstream sales (they apparently actually have). Each company > crippled Atom systems in different ways to prevent this. > > - Microsoft limits the sales of WinXP to netbooks with certain severe > limitations (screen size, RAM, and processor, I think). I believe 10" screen and 1GB ram. I don't remember a CPU limitation. > - Intel will not sell bare Atoms to anyone who will not sign a license > that restricts on their use. I don't remember all the limititations. > > If anyone gets close to competing with Atom, the Atom will suddenly get more > powerful or the agreements will be more liberal. > > We already saw how Linux on netbooks forced MS to rethink the rules > they imposed on their customers (the computer manufacturers). If intel would try to be a bit more inovative rather than reactive, they might actually do better. There are people out there that want efficient low power chips with good features. Intel just doesn't seem to want to make those because well they could cut into sales of high end chips, except the high end chips don't fit the need. To some extend the intel PXA and IXP lines are better CPUs for low power use than the atom, except of course they are not x86 and intel hates anything that isn't x86 (unless it is itanium). They hate stuff that they didn't invent. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 16:12:37 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:12:37 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091021030630.GC4883-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:06:30PM -0400, waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 03:33:37PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > > > x86-64 is a better instruction set, and runs faster except in a > > few odd cases. This is very different from pretty much every other > > architecture that has ever gone from 32 to 64bit. Most slow down. > > This, and a lot of your other points are valid for heavy-duty tasks. > But I'm talking about buying a *NETBOOK* fer-cryin-out-loud. Many of > your arguments are equivalant to urging potential buyers of subcompacts > to buy a Hummer instead. If I was doing stuff that needed that much > ram and cpu power, I wouldn't be looking at a netbook in the first > place. If 64bit instructions do the task 10% faster, than that's 10% faster performance on your netbook, and less time before it can go back to power saving mode. Sounds like a feature you might want. > > x86-64 mandates the use of SSE for floating point, while x86 uses x87. > > This makes floating point much much faster, and avoids the awfullness > > that is the x87 stack based FPU. This means all 64bit software can > > safely use SSE because it is a part of the instruction set. x86 code > > can not assume that if it wants to just work. > > Long live Gentoo. From my /etc/make.conf (yes, I'm running 32 bits) > CFLAGS="-O2 -march=prescott -mmmx -msse -msse2 -msse3 -mfpmath=sse -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe" And now your code is no longer 32bit x86 compatible. Only some CPUs will run it. With 64bit x86 that is safe to do all the time since all CPUs have it. And good grief I hope gentoo and java could just go away one of these days for serving no real purpose other than to waste time and resources. > Since the Open Source world does have open source, this allows distros > like Gentoo to compile apps from tarballs to a variety of architectures. > There are currently handbooks for installing Gentoo on x86, sparc, amd64, > ppc, ppc64, alpha, hppa, mips, ia64, and arm. Given that sparc, ppc, > alpha, hppa, and mips are still being supported now, I'm sure that x86 > support will continue for a long while. If I was buying a machine for > running Windows, your argument might be more valid. Sure it will, but until the majority of software in use is opensource and compiles and works on all those architectures people will still have to deal with it. For me running a pure 64bit system has been rather easy and painless. For my dad running windows, 64bit has had some issues with software compatibility (so far 2 of his programs simply can't run on 64bit and have to be run on his old machine instead). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 16:21:13 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:21:13 -0400 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADE16DC.1060402-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> <4ADC7581.4070409@utoronto.ca> <4ADD0F14.3090807@dinamis.com> <20091020150014.GH5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADE16DC.1060402@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20091021162113.GL5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 04:00:28PM -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > That wouldn't/didn't teach me a thing about how to do bootstrap > installations. Something no sane person should ever want to do. And if you want to see how it is done in a proper installer, go look at the sources. I have, I have even made some fixes to the installer process in the past. I learned a lot of useful stuff from it. >> Watching a compiler and make do it's thing teaches you >> nothing useful. It is quite boring in fact. > > Agreed, that part wasn't a particularly useful learning exercise. > However, getting Gentoo to the point where I could boot a Gentoo kernel > was a worthwhile learning experience for me. Much of the complexity of > installation is hidden behind tui or gui interfaces in most other > distros (and that's a good thing) but it was useful to learn what goes > on behind the scenes. Except what gentoo does is NOT what goes on behind the scenes. What gentoo is doing is what might be going on (if your definition is loose enough) at the build server or package maintainer. It is not what the installer would normally be doing. > With a "proper" system, the cost of reinstalling won't be so high that > you think that "rolling updates/upgrades" are The One True Way. Having > the option, but not the obligation, to do repeatable, fresh installs is > a very good thing. That shouldn't preclude you from doing in situ > updates and upgrades. Seems many distributions consider it a good enough solution that rolling upgrades don't have to be supported though. Perhaps making sure the upgrade method works first and best, before implementing the other part works out for the better. > It isn't "an excuse for why you don't have to support upgrades > properly". You can still do in situ updates/upgrades with yum, just like > you can with apt-get. Cobbler helps manage that. I can wake up a machine > across the network and do a repeatable install or update without > touching that machine. I know about and have done preseed installations > for Debian/Ubuntu and aside from the fact that they're more complex and > not as well documented as kickstart, I don't know of a tool like Cobbler > for Debian/Ubuntu. If one exists, we'd use it because we happily use > Debian and derivatives, too and we need something like it there. Then why do I keep reading about fedora upgrades going splat and people always just doing fresh installs? Strangely seems to happen to ubuntu a fair bit too. Perhaps the real issue is a lack of testing and too much preasure to release on a given date. > The creators of Red Hat and derivatives have made more effort addressing > manageability than the creators of Debian and derivatives, which isn't > surprising given that Red Hat targets and is used by organizations that > are bound to have such problems to address. I think Debian is used in > some large compute clusters where the manageability problems are > similar, hence debootstrap, but there are capabilities missing in > debootstrap that tools like Cobbler and Spacewalk are attempting to > address. Ubuntu, despite what Canonical may claim, isn't really ready > for "the enterprise". We have a client with a Canonical support > contract. It's a waste of money as far as I can tell because the moment > you stray away from what they consider to be "the standard", e.g. > deploying PHP apps via fcgi vs. mod_php, they throw up their hands and > say, "Oh, we can't provide support for that." Well I don't care much for ubuntu. It has good ideas, but also a lot of flaws. I suspect debian is just mainly used in places that don't need a support contract because they know what they are doing, where quality of software and mangeability of the system matters more than having a support contract for help and someone to blame when things don't work. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 16:23:44 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:23:44 -0400 Subject: Acer Aspire netbook In-Reply-To: <20091021161237.GK5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADF3590.30605@tmis.ca> I have had one for a few months now. They are very handy. I did not bother to ditch the default XP (mostly because of wireless device drivers) Then I installed VirtualBox, bridge the network and install some Linux distros. (have your cake and eat it too) Or boot lots of distros off a key. (pendrive and other sites, or make a bootable key in Ubuntu) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 16:40:27 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:40:27 -0400 Subject: Acer Aspire netbook In-Reply-To: <4ADF3590.30605-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADF3590.30605@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <20091021164027.GM5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:23:44PM -0400, teddy mills wrote: > I have had one for a few months now. > They are very handy. > > I did not bother to ditch the default XP > (mostly because of wireless device drivers) > > Then I installed VirtualBox, bridge the network > and install some Linux distros. > (have your cake and eat it too) > > Or boot lots of distros off a key. > (pendrive and other sites, or make a bootable key in Ubuntu) Interestingly on my wife's EEEpc 1008HA, the wireless works perfectly in linux, but the wired ethernet did not (I think 2.6.31 fixed it, but haven't tried yet since it is always on wifi anyhow). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 17:05:02 2009 From: bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Brandon Sandrowicz) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:05:02 -0700 Subject: Acer Aspire netbook In-Reply-To: <20091021164027.GM5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADF3590.30605@tmis.ca> <20091021164027.GM5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <712ca2da0910211005i69e0499ah5efee8c1a2cffbb3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Interestingly on my wife's EEEpc 1008HA, the wireless works perfectly > in linux, but the wired ethernet did not (I think 2.6.31 fixed it, > but haven't tried yet since it is always on wifi anyhow). > I'm curious what distro you find to be the easiest to work with on the EEE. -- Brandon Sandrowicz -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 17:23:35 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:23:35 -0400 Subject: OT: CRTC issues ruling on net neutrality In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910210833j2a598481x3bd84e739f9fad96-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910210833j2a598481x3bd84e739f9fad96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570910211023n301124dfvf1af1041c3c5f802@mail.gmail.com> Well, CBC finally put the article online, the thing I sent before was just a brief clip I get sent to my inbox; here is part of the article: "Big telecommunications companies such as Bell and Rogers can interfere with internet traffic only as a last resort, the CRTC says. Instead, they should use "economic measures" such as new investment and usage limits to combat congestion on their networks. "The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission on Wednesday issued a new framework by which it will judge whether internet service providers are discriminating against certain kinds of traffic and content. "'Canada is the first country to develop and implement a comprehensive approach to internet traffic management practices,' said CRTC chairman Konrad von Finckenstein in a statement. "'More and more, the internet is serving as the backbone for communication, commerce, governance, health, education and entertainment. Our framework will foster an environment where ISPs, application providers and users have the utmost freedom to innovate.' "Under the framework, the CRTC will require ISPs to provide retail customers with 30 days notice of any changes to network management, and wholesale customers with 60 days. The moves must be posted prominently on the ISP's website and consumers must be informed of how and when they will be affected, with a particular emphasis on how the speed of their service will change. "The CRTC is also requiring ISPs to institute economic measures to control usage such as charging 'consumers rates based on how much bandwidth they use each month, or offer discounts during off-peak hours.'" http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/10/20/crtc-net-neutrality-ruling.html -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 18:03:28 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:03:28 -0400 Subject: Acer Aspire netbook In-Reply-To: <20091021164027.GM5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADF3590.30605@tmis.ca> <20091021164027.GM5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4ADF4CF0.40806@moores.ca> My Aspire One came with a version of Linux. A pretty crappy distro that does more to explain the current prevalence of XP on sub-notebooks then anything MS could have ever concocted. I quickly install Ubuntu Netbook Remix, and it has worked great since. The only thing I don't have working is the little LED for the Wifi. I know there is a patch for this to get it working too. I just haven't bothered. I expect the Karmic version of this distro will address that anyways. Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:23:44PM -0400, teddy mills wrote: >> I have had one for a few months now. >> They are very handy. >> >> I did not bother to ditch the default XP >> (mostly because of wireless device drivers) >> >> Then I installed VirtualBox, bridge the network >> and install some Linux distros. >> (have your cake and eat it too) >> >> Or boot lots of distros off a key. >> (pendrive and other sites, or make a bootable key in Ubuntu) > > Interestingly on my wife's EEEpc 1008HA, the wireless works perfectly > in linux, but the wired ethernet did not (I think 2.6.31 fixed it, > but haven't tried yet since it is always on wifi anyhow). > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 18:14:31 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:14:31 -0400 Subject: OT: CRTC issues ruling on net neutrality In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910211023n301124dfvf1af1041c3c5f802-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910210833j2a598481x3bd84e739f9fad96@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910211023n301124dfvf1af1041c3c5f802@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADF4F87.3080909@moores.ca> What a pitiful ruling. Well, if we ever had a chance of growing innovative technology companies here, we just lost it. This country has just been seriously hosed by the CRTC. Our only hope now is that Parliament can step in and do things right, but with the Cons in charge there is slim to no chance of that. Michael Lauzon wrote: > Well, CBC finally put the article online, the thing I sent before was > just a brief clip I get sent to my inbox; here is part of the article: > > "Big telecommunications companies such as Bell and Rogers can > interfere with internet traffic only as a last resort, the CRTC says. > Instead, they should use "economic measures" such as new investment > and usage limits to combat congestion on their networks. > > "The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission on > Wednesday issued a new framework by which it will judge whether > internet service providers are discriminating against certain kinds of > traffic and content. > > "'Canada is the first country to develop and implement a comprehensive > approach to internet traffic management practices,' said CRTC chairman > Konrad von Finckenstein in a statement. > > "'More and more, the internet is serving as the backbone for > communication, commerce, governance, health, education and > entertainment. Our framework will foster an environment where ISPs, > application providers and users have the utmost freedom to innovate.' > > "Under the framework, the CRTC will require ISPs to provide retail > customers with 30 days notice of any changes to network management, > and wholesale customers with 60 days. The moves must be posted > prominently on the ISP's website and consumers must be informed of how > and when they will be affected, with a particular emphasis on how the > speed of their service will change. > > "The CRTC is also requiring ISPs to institute economic measures to > control usage such as charging 'consumers rates based on how much > bandwidth they use each month, or offer discounts during off-peak > hours.'" > > http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/10/20/crtc-net-neutrality-ruling.html > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 19:31:39 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:31:39 -0400 Subject: Android books Message-ID: <4ADF619B.4030907@moores.ca> Hi all, I may have an opportunity to do a project with Android soon. Yippee, I've been wanting to for a while. I looked at chapters and found several books on it, so I need to decide which is best. Has anybody here bought any Android SDK books? Any you'd recommend, or recommend I stay away from? Please share your thoughts. cheers, darryl -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 21 23:01:00 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:01:00 -0400 Subject: Acer Aspire netbook In-Reply-To: <712ca2da0910211005i69e0499ah5efee8c1a2cffbb3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADF3590.30605@tmis.ca> <20091021164027.GM5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910211005i69e0499ah5efee8c1a2cffbb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091021230100.GN5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:05:02AM -0700, Brandon Sandrowicz wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: > > > > Interestingly on my wife's EEEpc 1008HA, the wireless works perfectly > > in linux, but the wired ethernet did not (I think 2.6.31 fixed it, > > but haven't tried yet since it is always on wifi anyhow). > > > > I'm curious what distro you find to be the easiest to work with on the EEE. Well debian unstable installed just fine. Since Debian is all I run on anything anymore, that's what I find easiest. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 00:35:00 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:35:00 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091021161237.GK5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091022003500.GA18290@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:12:37PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:06:30PM -0400, waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Long live Gentoo. From my /etc/make.conf (yes, I'm running 32 bits) > > CFLAGS="-O2 -march=prescott -mmmx -msse -msse2 -msse3 -mfpmath=sse -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe" > > And now your code is no longer 32bit x86 compatible. Only some CPUs > will run it. It will run on *MY* machine, which is all I really care about. > For me running a pure 64bit system has been rather easy and painless. Gentoo has long been able to run in 64-bit mode. A few years ago, the 2 stumbling blocks were Realplayer and Schlockwave-Trash. They didn't have 64-bit versions, and I did not feel like futzing around with compatability libraries and/or chrooting. Realplayer is no longer important on the web, and Adobe has a pre-release 64-bit linux flash player at http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html I will give 64-bit mode a shot this time around. No guarantees that I will stick with it, but I will give it a shot. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 00:43:32 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:43:32 -0400 Subject: Android books In-Reply-To: <4ADF619B.4030907-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org> References: <4ADF619B.4030907@moores.ca> Message-ID: <4ADFAAB4.6080004@gmail.com> Darryl Moore wrote: > Hi all, > > I may have an opportunity to do a project with Android soon. Yippee, > I've been wanting to for a while. I looked at chapters and found several > books on it, so I need to decide which is best. > > Has anybody here bought any Android SDK books? Any you'd recommend, or > recommend I stay away from? > > Please share your thoughts. I don't know anything about android, but have you tired their mailing list? might be a good idea to join and just lurk, a invaluable way to learn imho http://developer.android.com/community/index.html > > cheers, > darryl > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 00:40:38 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:40:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091022003500.GA18290-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091022003500.GA18290@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20091022004038.GA18306@waltdnes.org> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:35:00PM -0400, waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote > I will give 64-bit mode a shot this time around. No guarantees that I > will stick with it, but I will give it a shot. In case I wasn't clear, the laptop will be my backup system. I know it won't run 64 bits. But it will free up an older 64-bit-capable Intel machine for experimentation. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 00:49:26 2009 From: edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (edward chin) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:49:26 -0400 Subject: monitors Message-ID: <8369b0fa0910211749h23ad7c26jf1804175f282098e@mail.gmail.com> A while back there was a project that needed monitors. I located a few 15"-17" CRT's. Does anyone know who might need these? Ed Chin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 00:51:22 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:51:22 -0400 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091022003500.GA18290-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091022003500.GA18290@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <4ADFAC8A.8050000@gmail.com> waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:12:37PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote >> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:06:30PM -0400, waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote: > >>> Long live Gentoo. From my /etc/make.conf (yes, I'm running 32 bits) >>> CFLAGS="-O2 -march=prescott -mmmx -msse -msse2 -msse3 -mfpmath=sse -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe" >> And now your code is no longer 32bit x86 compatible. Only some CPUs >> will run it. > > It will run on *MY* machine, which is all I really care about. > >> For me running a pure 64bit system has been rather easy and painless. > > Gentoo has long been able to run in 64-bit mode. A few years ago, the > 2 stumbling blocks were Realplayer and Schlockwave-Trash. They didn't > have 64-bit versions, and I did not feel like futzing around with > compatability libraries and/or chrooting. Realplayer is no longer > important on the web, and Adobe has a pre-release 64-bit linux flash > player at http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html > > I will give 64-bit mode a shot this time around. No guarantees that I > will stick with it, but I will give it a shot. > I've been running x86_64 Kubuntu 9.04 for a few months on my AMD Athlon64x2, it's rock solid and adobe-flash works fine for me. I did not install any multi-lib on my system as far as I know. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good ~ Share Freely -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 00:53:37 2009 From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:53:37 -0400 Subject: monitors In-Reply-To: <8369b0fa0910211749h23ad7c26jf1804175f282098e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <8369b0fa0910211749h23ad7c26jf1804175f282098e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADFAD11.8050500@moores.ca> Pfff, I can get you a hundred of these at the local recycle depot. When I take my junk in, I see they have a whole bin 8' x 8' x 20' dedicated to monitors only. Another one for other electronics, and a couple more for other things. People don't seem to be able to get rid of them fast enough now the LCD screens are so cheap. edward chin wrote: > A while back there was a project that needed monitors. > I located a few 15"-17" CRT's. > Does anyone know who might need these? > > Ed Chin > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 02:31:21 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:31:21 -0400 Subject: Acer Aspire netbook In-Reply-To: <20091021230100.GN5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADF3590.30605@tmis.ca> <20091021164027.GM5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910211005i69e0499ah5efee8c1a2cffbb3@mail.gmail.com> <20091021230100.GN5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:01 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Well debian unstable installed just fine. ?Since Debian is all I run on > anything anymore, that's what I find easiest. :) I recently did an install of squeeze/sid on an out-of-lease Thinkpad T43 that I picked up. I *had* been installing Ubuntu (with generally decent results) on laptoppy things lately, and didn't have high expectations on the "friendliness" of Debian. I've been using Debian long enough that it's intuitive enough *TO ME,* but wasn't expecting much on either "pretty GUI installer" or on what all would start up on a graphical note once things were installed. I was fairly impressed: they have evidently put effort into making the installer process fairly nearly "pretty." By far the worst thing was that I consulted wikied material on what you have to fiddle post-install, notably for wireless support, and was fighting through installing all sorts of extra components (kernelly bits) from source, only to discover it wasn't working. I then reinstalled the kernel package (which had gotten a bit overwritten by my "fight"), and discovered that recent Linux kernels can talk to the wifi hardware quite nicely "out of the box." Debian has something of a historical reputation of being Not Pretty, and of possibly needing some manual intervention to cope with hardware. A Debian install in 2009 is Quite a different thing from a Debian install of 1999... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Stephen Leacock - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue that I shall some day die, which is not so." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/stephen_leacock.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 15:50:45 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:50:45 -0400 Subject: HDTV monitor Message-ID: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> Has anyone tried using a 1920 x 1080 HDTV monitor with OpenSUSE 11.0? I'm looking at the Acer X233H 23" monitor. I have the Nvidia GeForce 7300 GS video card, which supports DVI. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 16:21:56 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:21:56 -0700 Subject: Lone Coder: VirtualBox on Vista with a Gentoo Guest In-Reply-To: <4ADC80EF.6010608-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <1255823216.10854.2.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <4ADA6791.2010808@gmail.com> <1255869755.11856.5.camel@rosette.pegasoft.ca> <20091019031949.GA10875@waltdnes.org> <4ADC80EF.6010608@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0910220921m527fa165m8e9b7743e8e912ce@mail.gmail.com> > 3. getting the /dev/sda or /dev/hda right depending on the motherboard I found this changed between certain kernel versions too. My drives that used to be /dev/hd? for IDE are now all /dev/sd?, regardless of whether they're SATA or IDE. > > > > > Ken Burtch wrote: >> >> Thanks for the info. >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ken O. Burtch ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Phone/Fax: >> 905-562-0848 >> ?"Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org >> ?"Perl Phrasebook" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, Jon VanAlten wrote: >> >>>> >>>> As Gentoo doesn't come with an xorg.conf file--except the sample one >>>> provided with the software and that doesn't support VirtualBox--and X >>>> Windows cannot not run without an xorg.conf file, and Gnome and KDE >>>> require >>>> X to run, I find it unlikely that you can get a graphical desktop in >>>> VirtualBox without creating and configuring the X config file. >>>> >>> >>> I don't know at which version this changed, but (for most common >>> hardware) X does not need xorg.conf to run anymore. ?Hardware is >>> auto-detected at runtime. ?Now, I don't use Virtualbox so I can't >>> speak to whether its virtualized hardware would be detected >>> correctly... >>> >>> jon >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (778) 890-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 16:29:48 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:29:48 -0400 Subject: HDTV monitor In-Reply-To: <4AE07F55.2080805-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20091022122948.8c12aa5c.tleslie@tcn.net> i use a 8600gt dual head config on linux mint with a 30" hp at 2560x1600 dualed with a LG 50" plasma 1920x1080p works fine, but for fine text work i usually have to scale the plasma down, so i usually only put multimedia up to it (its 10' away from my desk, if it was closer i'd probably be ok), cant see why opensuse11 wouldnt do it, i do know only more recently did xorg support a display width of > 4000, or something close to that, but they have over come that limitation as of recent. tl On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:50:45 -0400 James Knott wrote: > Has anyone tried using a 1920 x 1080 HDTV monitor with OpenSUSE 11.0? > I'm looking at the Acer X233H 23" monitor. I have the Nvidia GeForce > 7300 GS video card, which supports DVI. > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 16:32:50 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:32:50 -0700 Subject: HDTV monitor In-Reply-To: <4AE07F55.2080805-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:50 AM, James Knott wrote: > Has anyone tried using a 1920 x 1080 HDTV monitor with OpenSUSE 11.0? > I'm looking at the Acer X233H 23" monitor. ?I have the Nvidia GeForce > 7300 GS video card, which supports DVI. > > I'd imagine that it might be more a function of your video card+drivers (nvidia binary?)+Xorg version than the distro I know on a slightly outdated Ubuntu system (8.4 or 9.0, I can't quite remember which) I get perfect full-res picture from an older Nvidia 6600 card, even using a DVI->HDMI conversion cable. Since the nvidia blob should be about the same for both the 6600 and the 7300, I'd imagine it should work OK for you as well without too much tweaking. -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (778) 890-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 16:38:13 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:38:13 -0700 Subject: "World of Goo" for Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a97ef0910220938sad92bb7y3df476128a7e51e1@mail.gmail.com> I picked this up awhile back when they had a sale of some sort. Definitely a fun and addictive time-waster On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > The game "World of Goo" is being offered on a "pay what you think it > is worth" basis, details to be seen here: > > ? www.2dboy.com/games.php > > Yes, it is available for Linux (as a .deb, .rpm or tar.gz file) as > well as those other platforms... > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (778) 890-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 16:46:40 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:46:40 -0700 Subject: Anyone have experience with Acer netbooks ? In-Reply-To: <20091022003500.GA18290-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020145345.GG5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091022003500.GA18290@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <3a97ef0910220946n519257bcnfdb8a32e841a214@mail.gmail.com> > > ?Gentoo has long been able to run in 64-bit mode. ?A few years ago, the > 2 stumbling blocks were Realplayer and Schlockwave-Trash. ?They didn't > have 64-bit versions, and I did not feel like futzing around with > compatability libraries and/or chrooting. ?Realplayer is no longer > important on the web, and Adobe has a pre-release 64-bit linux flash > player at http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html > > ?I will give 64-bit mode a shot this time around. ?No guarantees that I > will stick with it, but I will give it a shot. > The 64-bit "flash" player is much better than a lot of the previous hacks used to make it work on firefox/64 (yes, I'm looking at you, "nspluginwrapper"). I've been fairly happy to enjoy more stability with their "pre-release" than the alternative. For actual shockwave though (which is a bit different from flash), I believe that it still has no Linux support (even 32bit) unless you want to install firefox+shockwave under WINE :-( -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 18:54:59 2009 From: bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Brandon Sandrowicz) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:54:59 -0700 Subject: Acer Aspire netbook In-Reply-To: References: <20091020002559.GA5029@waltdnes.org> <20091020193337.GI5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20091021030630.GC4883@waltdnes.org> <20091021161237.GK5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4ADF3590.30605@tmis.ca> <20091021164027.GM5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <712ca2da0910211005i69e0499ah5efee8c1a2cffbb3@mail.gmail.com> <20091021230100.GN5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <712ca2da0910221154s1caeab46x454df8a0c0003edc@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > I then reinstalled the kernel package (which had gotten a bit > overwritten by my "fight"), and discovered that recent Linux kernels > can talk to the wifi hardware quite nicely "out of the box." > > Debian has something of a historical reputation of being Not Pretty, > and of possibly needing some manual intervention to cope with > hardware. ?A Debian install in 2009 is Quite a different thing from a > Debian install of 1999... I would say that the state of wireless with the kernel (or just Linux in general) than Debian specifically. All distros have had issues with wireless which have largely settled down more recently. That said, it's great to hear that Debian is improving rather than just maintaining. It's been a while since I was on a pure Debian install. -- Brandon Sandrowicz -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 19:00:49 2009 From: bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Brandon Sandrowicz) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:00:49 -0700 Subject: HDTV monitor In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <712ca2da0910221200s78ab64e2u2a0d367a66407262@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > I know on a slightly outdated Ubuntu system (8.4 or 9.0, I can't quite > remember which) FYI, Ubuntu's versioning is in Y.MM format (i.e. 9.10 mean 2009-Oct release) and they target Apr and Oct releases. That's why the versioning increases so quickly... They don't use the more accepted Major.Minor versioning... Of course, IIRC Slackware jumped a bunch of versions because too many people were complaining that they were 'behind' because Mandrake/RedHet/etc at the time all had versions many numbers ahead (which doesn't really mean anything in reality though). -- Brandon Sandrowicz -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 19:04:53 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:04:53 -0400 Subject: Linus Celebrates Windows 7 Launch Message-ID: <7c50d3570910221204x4910a804u325e42746467bf6@mail.gmail.com> http://picasaweb.google.com/cschlaeger/JapanLinuxSymposium#5395400000458161906 -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 19:10:10 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:10:10 -0400 Subject: Linus Celebrates Windows 7 Launch In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910221204x4910a804u325e42746467bf6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910221204x4910a804u325e42746467bf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > http://picasaweb.google.com/cschlaeger/JapanLinuxSymposium#5395400000458161906 > Linus' greatest asset has always been his sense of humour. -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 19:24:55 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HDTV monitor In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Tyler Aviss | I know on a slightly outdated Ubuntu system (8.4 or 9.0, I can't quite | remember which) Those are not actual Ubuntu release numbers. Ubuntu numbers are dates: Y.MM. Not decimal fractions; I assume that next year a leading digit of 1 will be prepended. 8.04, 8.10, 9.04, and (very soon) 9.10 are all valid. Actually, "8.04 LTS" is the proper name for 8.04, I think. LTS == Long Term Support. Releases are intended to be six moths apart. I only mention this because I've seen others use incorrect notation suggesting that they don't know the meaning of the name. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 19:59:57 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:59:57 -0400 Subject: HDTV monitor In-Reply-To: References: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091022195957.GO5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 03:24:55PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Tyler Aviss > > | I know on a slightly outdated Ubuntu system (8.4 or 9.0, I can't quite > | remember which) > > Those are not actual Ubuntu release numbers. Ubuntu numbers are > dates: Y.MM. Not decimal fractions; I assume that next year a leading > digit of 1 will be prepended. > > 8.04, 8.10, 9.04, and (very soon) 9.10 are all valid. Actually, "8.04 > LTS" is the proper name for 8.04, I think. LTS == Long Term Support. > Releases are intended to be six moths apart. > > I only mention this because I've seen others use incorrect notation > suggesting that they don't know the meaning of the name. Ubuntu's numbers can be treated as any other normal version number. 9.4 comes before 9.10 just like 2.6.3 comes before 2.6.21. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 20:49:32 2009 From: bsandrow-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Brandon Sandrowicz) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:49:32 -0700 Subject: HDTV monitor In-Reply-To: References: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <712ca2da0910221349q248b36baw10adf55090ebea86@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 12:24 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Those are not actual Ubuntu release numbers. ?Ubuntu numbers are > dates: Y.MM. ?Not decimal fractions; I assume that next year a leading > digit of 1 will be prepended. This is the confusion. *No* version numbers are decimal fractions. The period/decimal is used as a separator between Major and Minor revision numbers (e.g. Major_Rev.Minor_Rev.BugFix_Rev). If they were decimal fractions, then 2.6.2 would be invalid, and 2.21 would come before 2.3. It could just as easily be 2$6$30 or 2/6/30 or 2,6,30 but the decimal looks cleaner, (and the comma would have the same confusion, just in Europe/Oceania instead of in North America). -- Brandon Sandrowicz -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 20:56:06 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:56:06 -0400 Subject: HDTV monitor In-Reply-To: <712ca2da0910221349q248b36baw10adf55090ebea86-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46@mail.gmail.com> <712ca2da0910221349q248b36baw10adf55090ebea86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091022205606.GP5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 01:49:32PM -0700, Brandon Sandrowicz wrote: > On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 12:24 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > Those are not actual Ubuntu release numbers. ?Ubuntu numbers are > > dates: Y.MM. ?Not decimal fractions; I assume that next year a leading > > digit of 1 will be prepended. > > This is the confusion. *No* version numbers are decimal fractions. The > period/decimal is used as a separator between Major and Minor revision > numbers (e.g. Major_Rev.Minor_Rev.BugFix_Rev). If they were decimal > fractions, then 2.6.2 would be invalid, and 2.21 would come before > 2.3. It could just as easily be 2$6$30 or 2/6/30 or 2,6,30 but the > decimal looks cleaner, (and the comma would have the same confusion, > just in Europe/Oceania instead of in North America). I would be surprised if next year's ubuntu isn't 10.4 since that would be year 10, month 4. Seems reasonable. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 20:59:15 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:59:15 -0700 Subject: HDTV monitor In-Reply-To: References: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <394A56C6-8622-408D-9C82-FBC968082B9C@gmail.com> I always somewhat wondered about those numbers. For a time-based distro this somewhat makes sense, as long as it has no more than monthly update periods. (sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos) On 22-Oct-09, at 12:24 PM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier" wrote: > | From: Tyler Aviss > > | I know on a slightly outdated Ubuntu system (8.4 or 9.0, I can't > quite > | remember which) > > Those are not actual Ubuntu release numbers. Ubuntu numbers are > dates: Y.MM. Not decimal fractions; I assume that next year a leading > digit of 1 will be prepended. > > 8.04, 8.10, 9.04, and (very soon) 9.10 are all valid. Actually, "8.04 > LTS" is the proper name for 8.04, I think. LTS == Long Term Support. > Releases are intended to be six moths apart. > > I only mention this because I've seen others use incorrect notation > suggesting that they don't know the meaning of the name. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 22 22:15:34 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:15:34 -0400 Subject: sudoers not working after transfer to a new machine Message-ID: <20091022221534.GB7027@waltdnes.org> I can su, but I can't run some scripts; /etc/sudoers contains... waltdnes d531 = (root) NOPASSWD: /etc/init.d/net.eth0 restart ...and it has worked for years on another machine (with d531 changed to d530). But on this machine... [d531][waltdnes][~] /etc/init.d/net.eth0 restart * /sbin/runscript.sh: must be root to run init scripts other commands in /etc/sudoers end up asking for my password, notwithstanding the NOPASSWD: flag, and after entering password I get... Sorry, user waltdnes is not allowed to execute as root on d531 To answer the the obvious questions people will ask... [d531][waltdnes][~] hostname d531 and yes, I am a member of wheel. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 23 00:11:41 2009 From: kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kyle O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:11:41 -0400 Subject: sudoers not working after transfer to a new machine In-Reply-To: <20091022221534.GB7027-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091022221534.GB7027@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <2274b9c30910221711i1203792ah896500ea78845dff@mail.gmail.com> sudo /etc/init.d/net.eth0 restart On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 6:15 PM, wrote: > I can su, but I can't run some scripts; /etc/sudoers contains... > > waltdnes d531 = (root) NOPASSWD: /etc/init.d/net.eth0 restart > > ...and it has worked for years on another machine (with d531 changed to > d530). But on this machine... > > [d531][waltdnes][~] /etc/init.d/net.eth0 restart > * /sbin/runscript.sh: must be root to run init scripts > > other commands in /etc/sudoers end up asking for my password, > notwithstanding the NOPASSWD: flag, and after entering password I get... > > Sorry, user waltdnes is not allowed to execute as root on d531 > > To answer the the obvious questions people will ask... > > [d531][waltdnes][~] hostname > d531 > > and yes, I am a member of wheel. > > > -- > Walter Dnes > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 23 00:31:32 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:31:32 -0400 Subject: export a *portable* playlist, including music files Message-ID: <1256257892.8807.1468.camel@gont> sometimes i want to share a playlist with someone. I guess i could burn a cd, but since no one has cd players anymore, i'd rather export a directory containing both the music and a playlist. Ideally it should be possible to just drop the directory into some file sharing service (dropbox, ubuntuone, ifolder, or whatever) and have a mac-or windows-using friend just grab the directory, import the playlist, and play it in itunes or whatever (unless someone has a better suggestion). Oh, and i should say that right now i'm using the Goggles Music Manager (http://code.google.com/p/gogglesmm/ ) to manage music, but could try whatever i needed to for this project (though amarok slows my system down to a crawl right now, so i'd sort of rather not do it that way). Anyway now that everyone only plays music on their computers, this seems like a nearly-essential feature that i'd really love to have... look forward to everyone's suggestions! -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 23 00:37:22 2009 From: kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kyle O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:37:22 -0400 Subject: export a *portable* playlist, including music files In-Reply-To: <1256257892.8807.1468.camel@gont> References: <1256257892.8807.1468.camel@gont> Message-ID: <2274b9c30910221737w75cdd079yb9e2e0ea7b853278@mail.gmail.com> find /path/to/music -name "*.mp3..." > file.m3u then when you move the m3u file over make sure the path is the same or use sed or vi to mass change if diff On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Matt Price wrote: > sometimes i want to share a playlist with someone. I guess i could burn > a cd, but since no one has cd players anymore, i'd rather export a > directory containing both the music and a playlist. Ideally it should > be possible to just drop the directory into some file sharing service > (dropbox, ubuntuone, ifolder, or whatever) and have a mac-or > windows-using friend just grab the directory, import the playlist, and > play it in itunes or whatever (unless someone has a better suggestion). > > Oh, and i should say that right now i'm using the Goggles Music Manager > (http://code.google.com/p/gogglesmm/ ) to manage music, but could try > whatever i needed to for this project (though amarok slows my system > down to a crawl right now, so i'd sort of rather not do it that way). > > Anyway now that everyone only plays music on their computers, this seems > like a nearly-essential feature that i'd really love to have... > > look forward to everyone's suggestions! > > > -- > Matt Price > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 23 02:40:11 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:40:11 -0400 Subject: HDTV monitor In-Reply-To: <20091022195957.GO5527-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE07F55.2080805@rogers.com> <3a97ef0910220932r2265c723m956444c0483bbc46@mail.gmail.com> <20091022195957.GO5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <7c50d3570910221940o78fd5e20uce00fc99ae6a1002@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Ubuntu's numbers can be treated as any other normal version number. > 9.4 comes before 9.10 just like 2.6.3 comes before 2.6.21. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- ATi/AMD does the same thing with their drivers, the last driver release was 9.9 (September 2009), and the next release will be 9.10, and so forth. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 23 03:46:34 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:46:34 -0400 Subject: sudoers not working after transfer to a new machine In-Reply-To: <2274b9c30910221711i1203792ah896500ea78845dff-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091022221534.GB7027@waltdnes.org> <2274b9c30910221711i1203792ah896500ea78845dff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091023034634.GA4805@waltdnes.org> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 08:11:41PM -0400, Kyle O'Donnell wrote > sudo /etc/init.d/net.eth0 restart gack! How could I forget that. I confess to having everything set up as scripts, and never manually doing stuff (for instance, when I run dialup). I finally got hibernate-script working yesterday, and wanted to be able to hibernate from my regular user account. That's when I did my first script in a long while, and forgot to include the the "sudo". Anyhow... Thank you, thank you, thank you verrry verrry much -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 23 13:37:20 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:37:20 -0400 Subject: export a *portable* playlist, including music files In-Reply-To: <2274b9c30910221737w75cdd079yb9e2e0ea7b853278-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1256257892.8807.1468.camel@gont> <2274b9c30910221737w75cdd079yb9e2e0ea7b853278@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256305040.8807.3169.camel@gont> On Thu, 2009-10-22 at 20:37 -0400, Kyle O'Donnell wrote: > find /path/to/music -name "*.mp3..." > file.m3u > > > then when you move the m3u file over make sure the path is the same or > use sed or vi to mass change if diff that solution is totally straightforward, but doesn't really generate the experience i'm looking for. in the old days we would sit around a record player together and make a mixed tape, which we would then duplicate on our crappy tape-to-tape recorder, and distribute to each other as a kind of present. the recordings were terrible, but we shared the experience in a casual way; it was a mode of friendship. i'd like to be able to sit around with my music collection -- and for me, right now, that means a GUI of some kind where i can search for and casually play clips from individual files -- and generate a playlist for friends, then send it to them in a way that lets them just trivially enjoy the experience. i have a kind of idea, though i'm not sure whether it'll work for windows users with their forward slashes. it goes like this: create an m3u playlist with whatever gui tool. Then parse it for file names, copy those files to a new directory, and rewrite the playlistso that it refers to the new files. Below is some quick python code i just put together to do this. does anyone have a better suggestion -- maybe using pure shell scripting, for instance? anyway here's what i've got so far: #!/usr/bin/python # usage: # playlistExporter.py -i oldplaylist -o newdirectory -n playlistname import os.path, sys, shutil from optparse import OptionParser # parse the command line first parser = OptionParser() parser.add_option ("-i", "--input", dest="inputFile", default="~/playlist.m3u", help="get playlist from FILE", action="store", type="string", ) parser.add_option("-o", "--output", dest="newFolder", default="~/NewPlaylist", action="store", type="string", help="save songs and playlist to") parser.add_option("-n", "--name", dest="playlistName", default="myplaylist", action="store", type="string", help="save songs and playlist to") (options, args) = parser.parse_args() # now start the real script # read the playlist, writing the song names to a new list # called "songs" oldPlaylist=open(options.inputFile) songs=[] newPlaylistText="" while 1: line=oldPlaylist.readline() if not line: break if line[0] != "#": clean=line.strip('\n') songs.append(clean) # create the new directory if it doesn't exist already newDir = os.path.abspath(options.newFolder) if not os.path.isdir(newDir): os.mkdir(newDir) # copy the files and create the playlist for song in songs: print(song) song=os.path.abspath(song) print(song) shutil.copy2(song,newDir) newPath=os.path.join("./", os.path.basename(song)) newPlaylistText += "newPath" + "\n" # write the new playlist to a file newPlaylist=open(os.path.join(newDir,options.playlistName + ".m3u"),"w") newPlaylist.write(newPlaylistText) newPlaylist.close -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 23 17:22:16 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:22:16 -0400 Subject: OT: Automatic parallelism across multiple machines Message-ID: Someone once asked about parallel programming across networks? I came across this project and it may have some value to the person who originally post this question looking for a simple tool or script way to do this? http://tiamat.rubyforge.org/ http://purefunctional.rubyforge.org/ I am personally looking into this project trying to understand how I would use it in the future. >From what I understand, Tiamat is a plugin for Pure. Pure provides the automatic thread parallelization, while Tiamat provides parallelization across multi-core and machines. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: James M. Lawrence Date: Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:42 PM Subject: [ANN] Tiamat: Automatic parallelism across multiple machines To: ruby-talk ML = Tiamat == Summary Automatic parallelism across multiple cores and machines: a plugin for Pure. == Synopsis ?require 'tiamat/autoconfig' ?require 'benchmark' ?mod = Pure.define do ? ?def total(left, right) ? ? ?left + right ? ?end ? ?def left ? ? ?(1..500_000).inject(0) { |acc, n| acc + n } ? ?end ? ?def right ? ? ?(1..500_000).inject(0) { |acc, n| acc + n } ? ?end ?end ?# compute using two threads ?puts Benchmark.realtime { mod.compute(2).total } ?# => 0.4432079792022705 ?# compute using two local Ruby interpreters ?Tiamat.open_local(2) { ? ?puts Benchmark.realtime { mod.compute.total } ? # => 0.2420041561126709 ?} == Description Tiamat is a worker plugin for the pure functional package. ?It links Ruby interpreters together with DRb, forming a back-end for Pure's parallelizing engine. == Install ?% gem install tiamat Or for the (non-gem) .tgz package, ?% ruby install.rb [--uninstall] == Links * Pure: http://purefunctional.rubyforge.org * Documentation: http://tiamat.rubyforge.org * Download: http://rubyforge.org/frs/?group_id=9145 * Rubyforge home: http://rubyforge.org/projects/tiamat * Repository: http://github.com/quix/tiamat == Author * James M. Lawrence -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good! - Share Freely, Enrich and Empower people to Transform their lives. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 24 04:13:27 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 00:13:27 -0400 Subject: Broken Debian upgrade Message-ID: <1f13df280910232113k5888ae71q6e565b54b201474e@mail.gmail.com> I have an old Debian testing-based laptop (550 MHz Pentium) that I attempted to upgrade. It usually stays off the network, so the last time it got a round of updates was back in June, and this time was about 330 packages. I ran "aptitude update ; aptitude dist-upgrade". It installed GRUB2 chainloaded (fine), but the conversion to dependency-based boot failed (looks fixable). That's not why I'm writing, but it might have a bearing on the matter. The install hung on this: Setting up console-setup (1.45) ... Everything else installed okay, except for all the xserver-xorg-video-{radeon|ati|savage|tseng|etc.} which are dependent on console-setup. I can think of a couple things that may have affected this: when the install was asking its questions, there were a whole bunch I answered without much thought which I now realize were probably related to this, about what console font I wanted (terminus), did I want utf-8 support (yes), how many pixels tall did I want the font (I chose 14, not the standard 16), and what combination of fonts did I want (I think I chose Western Europe/Turkish). There were other questions I don't remember. The other weird thing is I had a package called qingy installed: it's a getty replacement, but I had it running only on consoles 3 and 4. I've now uninstalled it, but that hasn't helped. I can't reconfigure the package because it's not installed, and I can't install it - presumably because it's misconfigured. The laptop boots into text mode but won't run X because X isn't configured properly. I could uninstall console-setup, but doing so looks likely to pull out the entirety of X - hardly desirable. I'll do this if I can't find another solution though. Does anybody have suggestions? -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 24 13:37:17 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 09:37:17 -0400 Subject: gov't sponsored site requires proprietary software Message-ID: <1256391437.6603.68.camel@cougar-hardy> Greetings, The Ontario Ministry of Culture is sponsoring Ontario Library Service Download Centre , which lends out any of a collection of audio books over the net. Disappointingly, the service works only only with Windows or Mac. It is perhaps no coincidence that the "guided tour" requires Adobe Flash, and they use the word "free" only in the sense "gratis". Time for a letter to your MPP, do you think? Cheers, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 24 19:50:59 2009 From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 12:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gov't sponsored site requires proprietary software In-Reply-To: <1256391437.6603.68.camel@cougar-hardy> References: <1256391437.6603.68.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: <704050.96476.qm@web59515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Interesting! I use Ubuntu 9.04 and went to that link. I had no issue browsing it and tested the download. I got as far as inputting my library card number (of which I don't have). I went to your other link and browsed it fine, but couldn't fine a link to downloads. I would check your version of flash first. I had previous installed flasyplugin-nonfree and my access to websites improved. Kind regards! Abi ________________________________ From: Terrence Enger To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Sat, October 24, 2009 9:37:17 AM Subject: [TLUG]: gov't sponsored site requires proprietary software Greetings, The Ontario Ministry of Culture is sponsoring Ontario Library Service Download Centre , which lends out any of a collection of audio books over the net. Disappointingly, the service works only only with Windows or Mac. It is perhaps no coincidence that the "guided tour" requires Adobe Flash, and they use the word "free" only in the sense "gratis". Time for a letter to your MPP, do you think? Cheers, Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer? 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 24 21:40:05 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:40:05 -0400 Subject: gov't sponsored site requires proprietary software In-Reply-To: <1256391437.6603.68.camel@cougar-hardy> References: <1256391437.6603.68.camel@cougar-hardy> Message-ID: <20091024214005.GA11331@waltdnes.org> On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 09:37:17AM -0400, Terrence Enger wrote > Disappointingly, the service works only only with Windows or Mac. > It is perhaps no coincidence that the "guided tour" requires > Adobe Flash, and they use the word "free" only in the > sense "gratis". I didn't get too deep into it, but it seems to work OK on Gentoo with Firefox 3.0.14 and Shockwave Flash 10.0 r32. Remember to enable javascript on those sites. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 25 14:24:22 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:24:22 -0400 Subject: gov't sponsored site requires proprietary software In-Reply-To: <704050.96476.qm-AA3Glc/8B2v5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <1256391437.6603.68.camel@cougar-hardy> <704050.96476.qm@web59515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AE45F96.4000301@rogers.com> Abidel Bassie-Cripps wrote: > Interesting! > > I use Ubuntu 9.04 and went to that link. I had no issue browsing it > and tested the download. I got as far as inputting my library card > number (of which I don't have). I went to your other link and browsed > it fine, but couldn't fine a link to downloads. > > I would check your version of flash first. I had previous installed > flasyplugin-nonfree and my access to websites improved. I just checked that site and see neither Toronto nor Mississauga libraries, among others, are not listed, so I can't even attempt to log in. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org Sun Oct 25 16:25:15 2009 From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 12:25:15 -0400 Subject: gov't sponsored site requires proprietary software In-Reply-To: <704050.96476.qm-AA3Glc/8B2v5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <1256391437.6603.68.camel@cougar-hardy> <704050.96476.qm@web59515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1256487915.11585.10.camel@cougar-hardy> My thanks to Abidel, James, and Walter for your comments. More of my thoughts in-line. On Sat, 2009-10-24 at 12:50 -0700, Abidel Bassie-Cripps wrote: > Interesting! > > I use Ubuntu 9.04 and went to that link. I had no issue browsing it and tested the download. I got as far as inputting my library card number (of which I don't have). I actually got as far as checking out an audio book. It was available for loan, it was in mp3 format, and I have an mp3 player. What can go wrong? Only when I tried to do the download--this is my own fault, I could have checked system requirements right at the start--did I find that the download required a proprietary executable to interpret a presumably prietary version of WMA > I went to your other link and browsed it fine, but couldn't fine a link to downloads. Sorry, my comment there was just a general expression of frustration and bad temper. I was not looking for downloads. > > I would check your version of flash first. I had previous installed flasyplugin-nonfree and my access to websites improved. Nothing to check. I do not have any version installed. Cheers, Terry. > > Kind regards! > Abi > > > From: Terrence Enger > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Sent: Sat, October 24, 2009 9:37:17 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: gov't sponsored site requires proprietary software > > Greetings, > > The Ontario Ministry of Culture is sponsoring Ontario Library > Service Download Centre , > which lends out any of a collection of audio books over the net. > > Disappointingly, the service works only only with Windows or Mac. > It is perhaps no coincidence that the "guided tour" requires > Adobe Flash, and they use the word "free" only in the > sense "gratis". > > > > Time for a letter to your MPP, do you think? > > Cheers, > Terry. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 26 01:02:34 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:02:34 -0400 Subject: Making an OpenOffice index clickable Message-ID: <4AE4F52A.9040500@alteeve.com> Hi all, I often see PDFs where each entry in an index can be clicked on which jumps you to that section in the document. Does anyone here know off hand how to do this in OpenOffice? Thanks! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 26 04:15:49 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 00:15:49 -0400 Subject: Making an OpenOffice index clickable In-Reply-To: <4AE4F52A.9040500-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE4F52A.9040500@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4AE52275.7040906@gmail.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I often see PDFs where each entry in an index can be clicked on which > jumps you to that section in the document. Does anyone here know off > hand how to do this in OpenOffice? This bothered me too, so I finally found the solution (today) and it works =) so thanks for asking ;) here it is: http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=18262 It is freaking retarded the way you need to do this. I had to read the instructions a few time to understand what 'n0mer' was saying. Just follow the step for 'level 1' and then click on the 'All' button. > > Thanks! > > Madi > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good! - Share Freely, Enrich and Empower people to Transform their lives. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 26 15:38:21 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:21 -0400 Subject: boot multiple net install distros from usb key Message-ID: <4AE5C26D.80409@tmis.ca> I would like to install onto a bootable USB key Net Installers for: Centos net install 32+64 bit fedora net install 32+64 bit a bootable linux system rescue cd etc and choose the distro from prompt Is there much a usb distro or iso for this? Or will it have to be homemade? Will I need one key for 32-bit distros and another for 64-bit distros? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 26 18:12:05 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:12:05 -0400 Subject: boot multiple net install distros from usb key In-Reply-To: <4AE5C26D.80409-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE5C26D.80409@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <4AE5E675.9040002@dinamis.com> teddy mills wrote: > I would like to install onto a bootable USB key > Net Installers for: > > Centos net install 32+64 bit > fedora net install 32+64 bit > a bootable linux system rescue cd > etc > > and choose the distro from prompt > > Is there much a usb distro or iso for this? > Or will it have to be homemade? > Will I need one key for 32-bit distros and another for 64-bit distros? If all you're targeting is Red Hat, CentOS, or Fedora, Cobbler is what you want. It can create a Cobbler boot CD for you so if it can do that, you can probably figure out how to create the key. You can make the installation as hands on or off as you want it to be. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 26 21:38:52 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:38:52 -0400 Subject: Patch error messages - rpmbuild Message-ID: Afternoon, I am trying to build an rpm for erlang as I can not seem to find any out there for the most current release. So, I went out there and found a rpm spec file for an older erlang that I used as a base for building the recent release. I am however not as strong as I would wish as far patch management is concerned. In short, I have been unable to make sense of what the patch error its throwing means. I think the patch fails because it was written for a different version of source code. My wish was to figure out the failing hunk and search the offending line(s) to make the necessary change. However, that seem to be harder than I thought and would appreciate any assistance on how to go about it. May be use this case as an example and hopefully I will be able to figure it out for other patches. When I attempt building, I get the following message: Snippet of the last few lines of rpmbuild + /bin/chmod -Rf a+rX,u+w,g-w,o-w . + echo 'Patch #0 (otp-links.patch):' Patch #0 (otp-links.patch): + patch -p1 -b --suffix .links -s + echo 'Patch #1 (otp-install.patch):' Patch #1 (otp-install.patch): + patch -p1 -b --suffix .install -s 1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file erts/etc/unix/Install.src.rej error: Bad exit status from /var/tmp/rpm-tmp.90300 (%prep) When I look at the reject file, it looks like this: *************** *** 84,90 **** /bin/rm -f epmd fi - ln -s $ERL_ROOT/erts-%I_VSN%/bin/epmd epmd cp -p $ERL_ROOT/erts-%I_VSN%/bin/run_erl . cp -p $ERL_ROOT/erts-%I_VSN%/bin/to_erl . --- 84,90 ---- /bin/rm -f epmd fi + ln -s ../erts-%I_VSN%/bin/epmd epmd cp -p $ERL_ROOT/erts-%I_VSN%/bin/run_erl . cp -p $ERL_ROOT/erts-%I_VSN%/bin/to_erl . And the patch looks like this: --- otp_src_R9C-0/erts/etc/unix/Install.src.install 2003-10-17 12:52:14.000000000 +0200 +++ otp_src_R9C-0/erts/etc/unix/Install.src 2003-10-17 14:26:49.000000000 +0200 @@ -84,7 +84,7 @@ /bin/rm -f epmd fi -ln -s $ERL_ROOT/erts-%I_VSN%/bin/epmd epmd +ln -s ../erts-%I_VSN%/bin/epmd epmd cp -p $ERL_ROOT/erts-%I_VSN%/bin/run_erl . cp -p $ERL_ROOT/erts-%I_VSN%/bin/to_erl . @@ -145,16 +145,4 @@ (ranlib $library) > /dev/null 2>&1 done fi - - -# -# Fixing the man pages -# - -if [ -d $ERL_ROOT/man ] -then - cd $ERL_ROOT - ./misc/format_man_pages $ERL_ROOT -fi - - +exit 0 Question, how should I go about making sense of these information? Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Mon Oct 26 22:50:10 2009 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 18:50:10 -0400 Subject: boot multiple net install distros from usb key In-Reply-To: <4AE5C26D.80409-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE5C26D.80409@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <20091026225010.GA3229@node1.opengeometry.net> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 11:38:21AM -0400, teddy mills wrote: > > I would like to install onto a bootable USB key > Net Installers for: > > Centos net install 32+64 bit > fedora net install 32+64 bit > a bootable linux system rescue cd > etc > > and choose the distro from prompt > > Is there much a usb distro or iso for this? > Or will it have to be homemade? > Will I need one key for 32-bit distros and another for 64-bit distros? Best analogy would be... how would you boot a harddisk that contains Windows 97, Windows 98, Windows 99, Windows 2000, Windows 2003, etc. :-) Each partition will have both OS and "root" boot loader. And, you would have MBR with simply the list to jump to. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 01:20:51 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:20:51 -0400 Subject: FUDCon Planning Message-ID: FUDcon (a Fedora Convention) is coming up on December 5-7 at Seneca College's York University campus. There will be a planning meeting regarding GTALug involvement at this event on October 29th. We will be meeting at 7:00 PM at the Starbuck's coffee shop in Indigo at Yonge & Eglinton (2300 Yonge St.). All are welcome. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 02:13:23 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:13:23 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? Message-ID: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> hi, I need to show this animation in a lecture hall where I can't count on internet access: http://goingtoschool.com/englishAnimation.htm I've downloaded the .swf file, but the file itself doesn't seem to contain the video stream I need; it's a binary, but I assume it's just a set of instructions that describe how to access the real video file. Does anyone know of a tool, command-line or otherwise, that would allow me to capturethe video stream to a file for later playback? keeping it in a nonfree format is fine, I have flashplayer installed... thanks much! Matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 03:17:09 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:17:09 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> Message-ID: <4AE66635.9080808@rogers.com> Matt Price wrote: > hi, > > I need to show this animation in a lecture hall where I can't count on > internet access: > http://goingtoschool.com/englishAnimation.htm > > I've downloaded the .swf file, but the file itself doesn't seem to > contain the video stream I need; it's a binary, but I assume it's just a > set of instructions that describe how to access the real video file. > Does anyone know of a tool, command-line or otherwise, that would allow > me to capturethe video stream to a file for later playback? keeping it > in a nonfree format is fine, I have flashplayer installed... > > thanks much! > Matt > There is a plug in for Firefox called Video Download Helper that allows you to grab videos from the web and convert them into a useful format. Note that it requires ffmpeg as a backend. http://www.downloadhelper.net/conversion-manual.php HTH John > > > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 03:43:02 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:43:02 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: <4AE66635.9080808-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> <4AE66635.9080808@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1256614982.27531.2895.camel@gont> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 23:17 -0400, John McGregor wrote: > Matt Price wrote: > > hi, > > > > I need to show this animation in a lecture hall where I can't count on > > internet access: > > http://goingtoschool.com/englishAnimation.htm > > > > I've downloaded the .swf file, but the file itself doesn't seem to > > contain the video stream I need; it's a binary, but I assume it's just a > > set of instructions that describe how to access the real video file. > > Does anyone know of a tool, command-line or otherwise, that would allow > > me to capturethe video stream to a file for later playback? keeping it > > in a nonfree format is fine, I have flashplayer installed... > > > > thanks much! > > Matt > > > There is a plug in for Firefox called Video Download Helper that allows > you to grab videos from the web and convert them into a useful format. > Note that it requires ffmpeg as a backend. > > http://www.downloadhelper.net/conversion-manual.php > thanks for htis, john. unfortunately, with the particular flash animation i mention here, I can't seem to get this to work. Automatic conversion fails silently, while manual conversion fails with a not-so-helpful error message ("conversion failed"). do you have any idea what i might be able to do to improve the outcome? if you try this file on your system, does the download succeed? knowing that it does would be a pretty big help. Anyway, thanks again for your assistance. matt > HTH > > John > > > > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 03:54:48 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:54:48 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> Message-ID: <4AE66F08.3040806@dinamis.com> Matt Price wrote: > Does anyone know of a tool, command-line or otherwise, that would allow > me to capturethe video stream to a file for later playback? keeping it > in a nonfree format is fine, I have flashplayer installed... RealPlayer that I have installed on one of my XP notebooks can capture almost any video stream to disk. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 04:36:46 2009 From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> Message-ID: <256363.61189.qm@web59508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hello Matt I used Downloadhelper as some one already mentioned. After it was downloaded I used VLC to view it. All with no issue at all. Kind regards! Abby ________________________________ From: Matt Price To: tlug Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 10:13:23 PM Subject: [TLUG]: capturing an swf stream from the web? hi, I need to show this animation in a lecture hall where I can't count on internet access: http://goingtoschool.com/englishAnimation.htm I've downloaded the .swf file, but the file itself doesn't seem to contain the video stream I need; it's a binary, but I assume it's just a set of instructions that describe how to access the real video file. Does anyone know of a tool, command-line or otherwise, that would allow me to capturethe video stream to a file for later playback? keeping it in a nonfree format is fine, I have flashplayer installed... thanks much! Matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org __________________________________________________________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 05:37:30 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:37:30 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: <1256614982.27531.2895.camel@gont> References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> <4AE66635.9080808@rogers.com> <1256614982.27531.2895.camel@gont> Message-ID: <4AE6871A.4060305@rogers.com> Matt Price wrote: > thanks for htis, john. > unfortunately, with the particular flash animation i mention here, I > can't seem to get this to work. Automatic conversion fails silently, > while manual conversion fails with a not-so-helpful error message > ("conversion failed"). do you have any idea what i might be able to do > to improve the outcome? if you try this file on your system, does the > download succeed? knowing that it does would be a pretty big help. > > Anyway, thanks again for your assistance. > > matt It works fine with Mepis 8. However that it failed for you may be due to the fact that the standard Debian ffmpeg package has most of the transcoding capabilities crippled due to patent problems in the U.S. I use the ffmpeg package that is available from the Mepis community restricted repos which is located outside of the U.S. Mepis 8 is heavily based on Lenny so it may work for you as well (if you are using Debian, Mepis, or Sidux). Restricted repo : deb http://restricted.mepis-deb.org/mepiscr/repo/ mepis8cr restricted restricted-non-free HTH John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 05:47:23 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:47:23 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: <4AE6871A.4060305-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> <4AE66635.9080808@rogers.com> <1256614982.27531.2895.camel@gont> <4AE6871A.4060305@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 1:37 AM, John McGregor wrote: > Matt Price wrote: >> >> thanks for htis, john. ?unfortunately, with the particular flash animation >> i mention here, I >> can't seem to get this to work. ?Automatic conversion fails silently, >> while manual conversion fails with a not-so-helpful error message >> ("conversion failed"). ?do you have any idea what i might be able to do >> to improve the outcome? ?if you try this file on your system, does the >> download succeed? ?knowing that it does would be a pretty big help. >> Anyway, thanks again for your assistance. >> >> matt > > It works fine with Mepis 8. However that it failed for you may be due to the > fact that the standard Debian ffmpeg package has most of the transcoding > capabilities crippled due to patent problems in the U.S. I use the ffmpeg > package that is available from the Mepis community restricted repos which is > located outside of the U.S. Mepis 8 is heavily based on Lenny so it may work > for you as well (if you are using Debian, Mepis, or Sidux). > > Restricted repo : deb http://restricted.mepis-deb.org/mepiscr/repo/ mepis8cr > restricted restricted-non-free > For Debian see http://debian-multimedia.org/ Pretty sure there's nothing that their ffmpeg package can't handle :-) -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 12:37:51 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:37:51 -0400 Subject: 300 Penguins Message-ID: Ran across the following parody piece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V8wesYyCCg&NR=1 Basicly a take on the promo for the movie "300" (ancient Sparta vs. the Persian Empire) done with penguins. Overall cute, but the line that stood out for me was one of the penguins announcing: "A new age is begun ... an age of freedom" Enjoy. Colin. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 14:04:32 2009 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:04:32 -0400 Subject: December's Short Talks on Revision control Message-ID: For December's meeting we are planning to have short talks on different revision control systems. We are currently looking for speakers who could talk about Fossil, CVS, and Git. These talks might be 30 to 15 minutes in length and should only cover basic usage. If you are interested please email the GTALUG talks mailing list @ tlug-talks-jmbJ75VLJBo at public.gmane.org http://gtalug.org/wiki/Meetings:2009-12 --- Myles Braithwaite me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 14:30:42 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:30:42 -0400 Subject: December Talk Message-ID: I can do a bit on Darcs... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Stephen Leacock - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue that I shall some day die, which is not so." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/stephen_leacock.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 15:05:56 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:05:56 -0400 Subject: boot multiple net install distros from usb key In-Reply-To: <20091026225010.GA3229-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE5C26D.80409@tmis.ca> <20091026225010.GA3229@node1.opengeometry.net> Message-ID: <20091027150556.GQ5527@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 06:50:10PM -0400, William Park wrote: > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 11:38:21AM -0400, teddy mills wrote: > > > > I would like to install onto a bootable USB key > > Net Installers for: > > > > Centos net install 32+64 bit > > fedora net install 32+64 bit > > a bootable linux system rescue cd > > etc > > > > and choose the distro from prompt > > > > Is there much a usb distro or iso for this? > > Or will it have to be homemade? > > Will I need one key for 32-bit distros and another for 64-bit distros? > > Best analogy would be... how would you boot a harddisk that contains > Windows 97, Windows 98, Windows 99, Windows 2000, Windows 2003, etc. > :-) Each partition will have both OS and "root" boot loader. And, > you would have MBR with simply the list to jump to. I actually have something that does what was requested on my usb key, but I can't remember what it is called. Let me check it... UNetbootin http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ Seems to allow turning multiple ISO's into data files on a usb stick with a boot menu. Rather neat. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 16:11:40 2009 From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:11:40 -0400 Subject: Panel Discussions Message-ID: A random idea popped into my head today, what about we do some panel discussions for a GTALUG meeting. VMs, dynamic programming languages, editors, etc. It might be a little hard considering the panellist would have to stand. But it would be really cool to have a wide range of discussion. -- Myles Braithwaite me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org http://mylesbraithwaite.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Oct 27 17:24:52 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:24:52 -0400 Subject: Broken Debian upgrade In-Reply-To: <1f13df280910232113k5888ae71q6e565b54b201474e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280910232113k5888ae71q6e565b54b201474e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280910271024m17b72ea2i27d12377c59e1e85@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/24 Giles Orr : > I have an old Debian testing-based laptop (550 MHz Pentium) that I > attempted to upgrade. ?It usually stays off the network, so the last > time it got a round of updates was back in June, and this time was > about 330 packages. ?I ran "aptitude update ; aptitude dist-upgrade". > It installed GRUB2 chainloaded (fine), but the conversion to > dependency-based boot failed (looks fixable). ?That's not why I'm > writing, but it might have a bearing on the matter. ?The install hung > on this: > > ? Setting up console-setup (1.45) ... > > Everything else installed okay, except for all the > xserver-xorg-video-{radeon|ati|savage|tseng|etc.} which are dependent > on console-setup. > > I can think of a couple things that may have affected this: when the > install was asking its questions, there were a whole bunch I answered > without much thought which I now realize were probably related to > this, about what console font I wanted (terminus), did I want utf-8 > support (yes), how many pixels tall did I want the font (I chose 14, > not the standard 16), and what combination of fonts did I want (I > think I chose Western Europe/Turkish). ?There were other questions I > don't remember. ?The other weird thing is I had a package called qingy > installed: it's a getty replacement, but I had it running only on > consoles 3 and 4. ?I've now uninstalled it, but that hasn't helped. ?I > can't reconfigure the package because it's not installed, and I can't > install it - presumably because it's misconfigured. ?The laptop boots > into text mode but won't run X because X isn't configured properly. ?I > could uninstall console-setup, but doing so looks likely to pull out > the entirety of X - hardly desirable. ?I'll do this if I can't find > another solution though. ?Does anybody have suggestions? Apologies for replying to myself, but in case anyone is curious: This is a known Debian bug: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=536683 . I can't find the page with the fix I used at the moment, but essentially I made sure I had no /etc/default/console-setup(?) file, and that /etc/X11/xorg.conf included only "default" values, and the install went fine. I use the Dvorak keyboard layout, which triggered the bug. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 03:20:14 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:20:14 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> <4AE66635.9080808@rogers.com> <1256614982.27531.2895.camel@gont> <4AE6871A.4060305@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1256700014.1956.1053.camel@gont> On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 01:47 -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 1:37 AM, John McGregor wrote: > > Matt Price wrote: > >> > >> thanks for htis, john. unfortunately, with the particular flash animation > >> i mention here, I > >> can't seem to get this to work. Automatic conversion fails silently, > >> while manual conversion fails with a not-so-helpful error message > >> ("conversion failed"). do you have any idea what i might be able to do > >> to improve the outcome? if you try this file on your system, does the > >> download succeed? knowing that it does would be a pretty big help. > >> Anyway, thanks again for your assistance. > >> > >> matt > > > > It works fine with Mepis 8. However that it failed for you may be due to the > > fact that the standard Debian ffmpeg package has most of the transcoding > > capabilities crippled due to patent problems in the U.S. I use the ffmpeg > > package that is available from the Mepis community restricted repos which is > > located outside of the U.S. Mepis 8 is heavily based on Lenny so it may work > > for you as well (if you are using Debian, Mepis, or Sidux). > > > > Restricted repo : deb http://restricted.mepis-deb.org/mepiscr/repo/ mepis8cr > > restricted restricted-non-free > > > > For Debian see http://debian-multimedia.org/ > > Pretty sure there's nothing that their ffmpeg package can't handle :-) > irritatingly, I haven't been able to get this working on ubuntu karmic, which is what most of my computers are running right now. The debian-multimedia packages land me in dependency hell, and compiling my own ffmpeg isn't doing the trick. ghashin of teeth! fortunately (but a little humiliatingly) my wife's vista machine handled it without any problems. It's just possible that this is some kind of an interaction between downloadhelper and recent firefoxes -- is anyone else using a recent firefox? thanks though for all the help, i'm sure i'll get it sorted at some point. matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 13:01:06 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:01:06 -0400 Subject: Ontario GNU Linux Fest Wrap up Message-ID: Dear All, Thanks for making OGLF2009 so good! We'd love to make next year even better and we'd love to have your feedback. We have feedback forms for attendees and for those who couldn't attend this year. And feedback can be anonymous. Those who chose to identify themselves and offer feedback are eligible for a door prize. Attendees http://onlinux.ca/attendee-feedback Missed 2009 http://onlinux.ca/community-feedback Best regards, Richard (and the rest of the OGLF 2009 team) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 14:59:41 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:59:41 -0400 Subject: [OT] Toronto Innovation Showcase Message-ID: <99a6c38f0910280759p3ff4f363v22ae2968a01c0b62@mail.gmail.com> Just a quick note that David Eaves - one of the forces behind Vancouver Council's decision to support Open Source, Open Standards & Open Data - will be involved in a panel discussion about Open Government in Toronto on Monday (Nov 2nd). The goal of the showcase is to provide: "a venue for you to come and meet with your colleagues to discuss these questions, hear their success stories, share experiences about opportunities and challenges in the public sector using social media, propose suggestions, exchange information on IT and trends, create connections, knowledge, tools and policies that address the increased demand by citizens for better public service, transparency, civic engagement and democratic empowerment." For more information, please see http://eaves.ca/2009/10/28/upcoming-talk-toronto-innovation-showcase/ -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 16:52:03 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:52:03 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card Message-ID: Hi pals, I am looking to buy a video card that should primary be optimized for video capturing, and not to worried at the moment how it does on display. Ideally, should support OSS as I would rather buy from vendors who are open source friendly. The card should have a S-video input as most of the data that will be going to it is analogue. I have an extra PCI slot so, would be more interested on internal cards instead of USB based cards. I have done a bit of googling and I do not seem to be getting any good article, may be my key words are not that good as I think this should be well documented at this time. Would you mind sharing your experience if you have done something similar in the past? Any information is appreciated, even caveat to look out for when going through the process. Regards, William -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 17:16:36 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:16:36 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091028171636.GA11671@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 12:52:03PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote: > Hi pals, > > I am looking to buy a video card that should primary be optimized for > video capturing, and not to worried at the moment how it does on > display. Ideally, should support OSS as I would rather buy from > vendors who are open source friendly. > > The card should have a S-video input as most of the data that will be > going to it is analogue. I have an extra PCI slot so, would be more > interested on internal cards instead of USB based cards. I have done a > bit of googling and I do not seem to be getting any good article, may > be my key words are not that good as I think this should be well > documented at this time. > > Would you mind sharing your experience if you have done something > similar in the past? Any information is appreciated, even caveat to > look out for when going through the process. Well I suspect the hauppauge cards in general would do the job (ivtv driver) for capturing. Output is the job of your video card, and not related at all. A PVR-150 certainly would capture svideo and should let you get it either raw or mpeg2 compressed. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 17:22:47 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:22:47 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/28/09, William Muriithi wrote: > Hi pals, > > I am looking to buy a video card that should primary be optimized for > video capturing, and not to worried at the moment how it does on > display. Ideally, should support OSS as I would rather buy from > vendors who are open source friendly. > > The card should have a S-video input as most of the data that will be > going to it is analogue. I have an extra PCI slot so, would be more > interested on internal cards instead of USB based cards. I have done a > bit of googling and I do not seem to be getting any good article, may > be my key words are not that good as I think this should be well > documented at this time. > > Would you mind sharing your experience if you have done something > similar in the past? Any information is appreciated, even caveat to > look out for when going through the process. > > Regards, > > William My experience in video capture comes out of working with MythTV. When it comes to open source friendly analog capture the gold standard is the Hauppauge PVR series of PCI capture cards (the PVR-150, PVR-250, PVR-350 and PVR-500). Each of the PVR card models has a slightly different feature set, and there is some variation within each model (some shipped with remote controls, etc...). I would recommend any of above for analog capture. I have a PVR-150 and have been very happy with it for capture off cable TV. Now the bad news, in the lead-up to analog TV shutdown the Federal Communications Commission in the US banned the sale of analog only capture cards. This in turn meant that Hauppauge stopped production of the PVR series. Basicly the only place you will find PVR cards for sale is on the used market. There are some cards currently on the market, such as the Hauppauge HVR series that can do HDTV and analog capture. Problem here is that the open source HDTV side of these drivers get all the attention, and the analog side of these cards ... well that tends to be problematic. Hope this helps. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 17:54:03 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:54:03 -0400 Subject: New wireless router Message-ID: <20091028175403.GB11671@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> So two days ago, my WL-500gP suddenly decided to stop doing its job, and after pwoer cycling it it no longer booted. Reflashing it seemed to get it booting again, but not for long, and I then discovered the WAN port had turned into a LAN port on the switch, which meant the switch chip was no longer being configuring correctly. So time for a new router. After looking what was available at local stores and researching them, I found out simultanious dual band routers with 802.11n are actually getting affordable now, and some of them are being worked on and will probably be supported by openwrt and the like pretty soon. So I bought a D-Link DIR-825 rev B1 with 2.02NA firmware (all nicely labeled on the outside of the box. Linksys could learn something here). Very specificly NOT a rev A1 (which is apparently a piece of junk, with totally different hardware and software inside). The rev A uses an ubicom CPU (300MHz proprietary RISC chip), while the rev B uses a 680MHz atheros 7161 MIPS 24k CPU. The rev B runs linux (the A does not apparently). So with a 680MHz CPU and 64MB ram it is quite decent performance. So far I am impressed. The signal strength for the various wifi enabled machines in the house is much improved over the old router too. I really like the guest wifi feature. I now have it running as: wifi5 - WPA2/AES 5GHz 802.11 a/n wifi24 - WPA2/AES 2.4GHz 802.11 b/g/n wifi24ds - WEP 128bit 2.4GHz 802.11 b/g guest (firewalled from the other wifi and hence internet only access). I run my Nintendo DS lite on this now. I never had it able to connect to the internet before because it doesn't do WPA. The only issues with the default settings are a couple of misfeatures. The QoS support by default tries to measure the upstream bandwidth to decide how to configure the QoS support. This takes a while, isn't that accurate and slows down boot time by a noticeable amount. I turned that off and set my 1Mbit upstream speed manually. Boot time is now much better and nicer. The second misfeature, is a capcha at the login screen in addition to the password. That is totally stupid, not even a well done capcha, and I turned that off too. Everything else is great. Well the blue LEDs for the ports and power and such are awfully bright. I made mine face the wall for now. Apparently blue means working and amber means not yet working on this thing rather than red/green. So I would certainly recommend the DIR0825 rev B for anyone that wants the everything in one and at the same time wifi router. Once openwrt and such hopefully one day runs on it, it will just get better. I also like the fact that the first thing you see when you open up the box, is a printed copy of the GPL along with an offer of getting a disc with the GPL parts of the code by writing them or sending an email. You can also download it from the website ofcourse. The CD with the windows software also has a note on the back for Mac and Linux (both listed explicitly) users telling them where on the CD to find the documentation files. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 19:50:41 2009 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:50:41 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: <1256700014.1956.1053.camel@gont> References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> <4AE66635.9080808@rogers.com> <1256614982.27531.2895.camel@gont> <4AE6871A.4060305@rogers.com> <1256700014.1956.1053.camel@gont> Message-ID: Here's the link to the flv file. http://goingtoschool.com/Be!Animation_English.flv On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Matt Price wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 01:47 -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 1:37 AM, John McGregor > wrote: > > > Matt Price wrote: > > >> > > >> thanks for htis, john. unfortunately, with the particular flash > animation > > >> i mention here, I > > >> can't seem to get this to work. Automatic conversion fails silently, > > >> while manual conversion fails with a not-so-helpful error message > > >> ("conversion failed"). do you have any idea what i might be able to > do > > >> to improve the outcome? if you try this file on your system, does the > > >> download succeed? knowing that it does would be a pretty big help. > > >> Anyway, thanks again for your assistance. > > >> > > >> matt > > > > > > It works fine with Mepis 8. However that it failed for you may be due > to the > > > fact that the standard Debian ffmpeg package has most of the > transcoding > > > capabilities crippled due to patent problems in the U.S. I use the > ffmpeg > > > package that is available from the Mepis community restricted repos > which is > > > located outside of the U.S. Mepis 8 is heavily based on Lenny so it may > work > > > for you as well (if you are using Debian, Mepis, or Sidux). > > > > > > Restricted repo : deb http://restricted.mepis-deb.org/mepiscr/repo/mepis8cr > > > restricted restricted-non-free > > > > > > > For Debian see http://debian-multimedia.org/ > > > > Pretty sure there's nothing that their ffmpeg package can't handle :-) > > > irritatingly, I haven't been able to get this working on ubuntu karmic, > which is what most of my computers are running right now. The > debian-multimedia packages land me in dependency hell, and compiling my > own ffmpeg isn't doing the trick. ghashin of teeth! fortunately (but a > little humiliatingly) my wife's vista machine handled it without any > problems. > > It's just possible that this is some kind of an interaction between > downloadhelper and recent firefoxes -- is anyone else using a recent > firefox? > > thanks though for all the help, i'm sure i'll get it sorted at some > point. > > matt > > > > -- > Matt Price > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > -- Mark Lane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 20:12:54 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:12:54 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> <4AE66635.9080808@rogers.com> <1256614982.27531.2895.camel@gont> <4AE6871A.4060305@rogers.com> <1256700014.1956.1053.camel@gont> Message-ID: <1256760774.1956.3056.camel@gont> On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 15:50 -0400, Mark Lane wrote: > Here's the link to the flv file. > > http://goingtoschool.com/Be!Animation_English.flv > wow, thanks! that's great. can you tell me how you located it? did you do some kind of snooping inside the .swf file or something? again, thanks very much. matt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Oct 28 22:41:10 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:41:10 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie@tcn.net> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:22:47 -0400 Colin McGregor wrote: > On 10/28/09, William Muriithi wrote: > > Hi pals, > > > > I am looking to buy a video card that should primary be optimized for > > video capturing, and not to worried at the moment how it does on > > display. Ideally, should support OSS as I would rather buy from > > vendors who are open source friendly. > > > > The card should have a S-video input as most of the data that will be > > going to it is analogue. I have an extra PCI slot so, would be more > > interested on internal cards instead of USB based cards. I have done a > > bit of googling and I do not seem to be getting any good article, may > > be my key words are not that good as I think this should be well > > documented at this time. > > > > Would you mind sharing your experience if you have done something > > similar in the past? Any information is appreciated, even caveat to > > look out for when going through the process. > > > > Regards, > > > > William > > My experience in video capture comes out of working with MythTV. When > it comes to open source friendly analog capture the gold standard is > the Hauppauge PVR series of PCI capture cards (the PVR-150, PVR-250, > PVR-350 and PVR-500). Each of the PVR card models has a slightly > different feature set, and there is some variation within each model > (some shipped with remote controls, etc...). I would recommend any of > above for analog capture. I have a PVR-150 and have been very happy > with it for capture off cable TV. > > Now the bad news, in the lead-up to analog TV shutdown the Federal > Communications Commission in the US banned the sale of analog only > capture cards. This in turn meant that Hauppauge stopped production of > the PVR series. Basicly the only place you will find PVR cards for > sale is on the used market. > > There are some cards currently on the market, such as the Hauppauge > HVR series that can do HDTV and analog capture. Problem here is that > the open source HDTV side of these drivers get all the attention, and > the analog side of these cards ... well that tends to be problematic. i bought a hd-pvr and I noticed they are still selling, you sure they are cutting them, i might consider buying another, records 720p and 1080i very nice in linux, and of course subverts all that nasty copy protection, which oddly enough is fine to do in canada. tl > > Hope this helps. > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 01:29:29 2009 From: lmlane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mark Lane) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:29:29 -0400 Subject: capturing an swf stream from the web? In-Reply-To: <1256760774.1956.3056.camel@gont> References: <1256609603.27531.2336.camel@gont> <4AE66635.9080808@rogers.com> <1256614982.27531.2895.camel@gont> <4AE6871A.4060305@rogers.com> <1256700014.1956.1053.camel@gont> <1256760774.1956.3056.camel@gont> Message-ID: I used a download manager to download it and it told me the URL. On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Matt Price wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 15:50 -0400, Mark Lane wrote: > > Here's the link to the flv file. > > > > http://goingtoschool.com/Be!Animation_English.flv > > > > wow, thanks! that's great. can you tell me how you located it? did > you do some kind of snooping inside the .swf file or something? > > again, thanks very much. > > matt > -- Mark Lane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 14:14:55 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:14:55 -0700 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e@mail.gmail.com> > i bought a hd-pvr and I noticed they are still selling, > you sure they are cutting them, i might consider buying another, > records 720p and 1080i very nice in linux, and of course subverts all that > nasty copy protection, which oddly enough is fine to do in canada. > > tl >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Colin McGregor You mean an actual PVR or a PVR card?. If the card, who's your television provider? I had a rather rude shock shortly after moving back to western Canada. Shortly after acquiring a PVR-250 (hauppauge) and *finally* getting all my MythTV stuff to work, the buggers at the default Cableco (Shaw) switched everything to digital. This renders my analog card fairly useless unless I want to manually preset the channels on the digital box, and apparently the digital signal is encrypted so a digital PVR card would be equally unhelpful. I was led to believe it was the same with Rogers/Bell. Is this not the case? >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > -- > ted leslie > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (778) 890-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 14:22:29 2009 From: chris-E7bvbYbpR6jSUeElwK9/Pw at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT] The internet is 40 years old today! Message-ID: The internet is 40 years old today! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8331253.stm -- Chris F.A. Johnson Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 14:51:34 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:51:34 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie@tcn.net> <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091029105134.97f329d4.tleslie@tcn.net> it the usb pvr, that capture hd via component input, right from the rogers digital hd tuner. tl On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:14:55 -0700 Tyler Aviss wrote: > > i bought a hd-pvr and I noticed they are still selling, > > you sure they are cutting them, i might consider buying another, > > records 720p and 1080i very nice in linux, and of course subverts all that > > nasty copy protection, which oddly enough is fine to do in canada. > > > > tl > >> > >> Hope this helps. > >> > >> Colin McGregor > > You mean an actual PVR or a PVR card?. If the card, who's your > television provider? > > I had a rather rude shock shortly after moving back to western Canada. > Shortly after acquiring a PVR-250 (hauppauge) and *finally* getting > all my MythTV stuff to work, the buggers at the default Cableco (Shaw) > switched everything to digital. This renders my analog card fairly > useless unless I want to manually preset the channels on the digital > box, and apparently the digital signal is encrypted so a digital PVR > card would be equally unhelpful. > > I was led to believe it was the same with Rogers/Bell. Is this not the case? > > > > > > > > >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > >> > > > > > > -- > > ted leslie > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2 > (778) 890-0942 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 15:15:42 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:15:42 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie@tcn.net> <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091029151542.GC11671@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 07:14:55AM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote: > You mean an actual PVR or a PVR card?. If the card, who's your > television provider? > > I had a rather rude shock shortly after moving back to western Canada. > Shortly after acquiring a PVR-250 (hauppauge) and *finally* getting > all my MythTV stuff to work, the buggers at the default Cableco (Shaw) > switched everything to digital. This renders my analog card fairly > useless unless I want to manually preset the channels on the digital > box, and apparently the digital signal is encrypted so a digital PVR > card would be equally unhelpful. > > I was led to believe it was the same with Rogers/Bell. Is this not the case? Analog cable is still fine on rogers. Bell is satelite and has always required a receiver box. Rogers has slowly been removing analog channels, but so far most of them are still there. If they ever remove them all I will have to cancel cable since it will no longer be useful at all. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 15:21:51 2009 From: gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jing) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:21:51 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie@tcn.net> <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > You mean an actual PVR or a PVR card?. If the card, who's your > television provider? > > I had a rather rude shock shortly after moving back to western Canada. > Shortly after acquiring a PVR-250 (hauppauge) and *finally* getting > all my MythTV stuff to work, the buggers at the default Cableco (Shaw) > switched everything to digital. This renders my analog card fairly > useless unless I want to manually preset the channels on the digital > box, and apparently the digital signal is encrypted so a digital PVR > card would be equally unhelpful. > > I was led to believe it was the same with Rogers/Bell. Is this not the case? Yet another example of how Canadians get screwed. The US, AFAIK, has mandated that consumers be able to use a digital decryption card to port their equipment around (like SIM cards on unlocked phones). Such a feature is not available in Canada. So if you buy a Rogers digital box here in Ontario, you can't use it in Quebec or BC, and vice versa. I'm not sure if Rogers is even willing to give a decryption card if you import a digital box from elsewhere. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 15:42:27 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:42:27 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie@tcn.net> <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/29/09, Tyler Aviss wrote: >> i bought a hd-pvr and I noticed they are still selling, >> you sure they are cutting them, i might consider buying another, >> records 720p and 1080i very nice in linux, and of course subverts all that >> nasty copy protection, which oddly enough is fine to do in canada. >> >> tl >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> Colin McGregor > > You mean an actual PVR or a PVR card?. If the card, who's your > television provider? > > I had a rather rude shock shortly after moving back to western Canada. > Shortly after acquiring a PVR-250 (hauppauge) and *finally* getting > all my MythTV stuff to work, the buggers at the default Cableco (Shaw) > switched everything to digital. This renders my analog card fairly > useless unless I want to manually preset the channels on the digital > box, and apparently the digital signal is encrypted so a digital PVR > card would be equally unhelpful. Not useless, but ... There are IR blasters supported under Linux that will let your Linux PC mimic the remote control for your cable box. This in turn means that your MythTV software could capture from any channel your cable box. The IR blaster set-up means one extra bit of hardware, and a extra bit of software that needs to be configured, all adding a bit more pain to things... > I was led to believe it was the same with Rogers/Bell. Is this not the case? No, there is a fairly large number of unencrypted analog channels still available via Rogers. Colin. >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> >> -- >> ted leslie >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2 > (778) 890-0942 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 15:59:37 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:59:37 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: References: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie@tcn.net> <3a97ef0910290714y530793d8mac8c707d6f31713e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/29/09, jing wrote: [snip] > Yet another example of how Canadians get screwed. The US, AFAIK, has > mandated that consumers be able to use a digital decryption card to > port their equipment around (like SIM cards on unlocked phones). Such > a feature is not available in Canada. So if you buy a Rogers digital > box here in Ontario, you can't use it in Quebec or BC, and vice versa. Two differences between the US and Canada. First, in the US they are required to offer the local over the air digital channels unencrypted (they can encrypt the "premium" channels, like the movie channels to their hearts content (and yes, they typically do encrypt everything they can get away with ... :-( )). Second, the MythTV mailing list has carried quite a few stories from Americans who have had to fight with their cable company regarding getting a CableCARD... Yes, they are required to offer it, but many do their best to make it close to impossible to get... Bottom line, no bed of roses in the US, but they are better off than we are... Colin. > I'm not sure if Rogers is even willing to give a decryption card if > you import a digital box from elsewhere. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 17:00:29 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:00:29 -0500 Subject: TELEPHONE NUMBER EX-DIRECTORY LISTING Message-ID: <4AE9CA2D.3000907@tmis.ca> ENSURE THAT NEW TELEPHONE NUMBER IS NOT LISTED IN DIRECTORY. POINT OUT THAT REASON FOR DOING SO IS THAT SISTER, WHO LIVES WITH ME, HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO HARASSMENT BY A STALKER; OTHERWISE, THERE IS A CHARGE FOR BEING EX-DIRECTORY. _*for caller id purposes, have number listed as "private caller"*_ -- [ Teddy David Mills System Administrator TMIS.ca ] [ Teddys Virtual Space of Sciences, Technology ] [ Music, Media, Linux and Open Source ] [ http://vger1.dyndns.org ] [ http://vger1.dyndns.org/wordpress ] -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ayilmaz-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 16:14:23 2009 From: ayilmaz-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Amanda Yilmaz) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:14:23 -0400 Subject: TELEPHONE NUMBER EX-DIRECTORY LISTING In-Reply-To: <4AE9CA2D.3000907-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <4AE9CA2D.3000907@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <1256832863.18789.1342609955@webmail.messagingengine.com> Umm, Teddy, I get the impression this wasn't meant for the list. :-) I hope your sister is OK though! Amanda On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:00 -0500, "teddymills" wrote: > ENSURE THAT NEW TELEPHONE NUMBER IS NOT LISTED IN DIRECTORY. > > POINT OUT THAT REASON FOR DOING SO IS THAT SISTER, WHO LIVES WITH ME, > HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO HARASSMENT BY A STALKER; OTHERWISE, THERE IS > A CHARGE FOR BEING EX-DIRECTORY. > > _*for caller id purposes, have number listed as "private caller"*_ > > -- > [ Teddy David Mills System Administrator TMIS.ca ] > [ Teddys Virtual Space of Sciences, Technology ] > [ Music, Media, Linux and Open Source ] > [ http://vger1.dyndns.org ] > [ http://vger1.dyndns.org/wordpress ] > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 16:24:40 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:24:40 -0400 Subject: Affordable video capturing card In-Reply-To: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20091028184110.1503d594.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: On 10/28/09, ted leslie wrote: > On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:22:47 -0400 > Colin McGregor wrote: > >> On 10/28/09, William Muriithi wrote: >> > Hi pals, >> > >> > I am looking to buy a video card that should primary be optimized for >> > video capturing, and not to worried at the moment how it does on >> > display. Ideally, should support OSS as I would rather buy from >> > vendors who are open source friendly. >> > >> > The card should have a S-video input as most of the data that will be >> > going to it is analogue. I have an extra PCI slot so, would be more >> > interested on internal cards instead of USB based cards. I have done a >> > bit of googling and I do not seem to be getting any good article, may >> > be my key words are not that good as I think this should be well >> > documented at this time. >> > >> > Would you mind sharing your experience if you have done something >> > similar in the past? Any information is appreciated, even caveat to >> > look out for when going through the process. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > William >> >> My experience in video capture comes out of working with MythTV. When >> it comes to open source friendly analog capture the gold standard is >> the Hauppauge PVR series of PCI capture cards (the PVR-150, PVR-250, >> PVR-350 and PVR-500). Each of the PVR card models has a slightly >> different feature set, and there is some variation within each model >> (some shipped with remote controls, etc...). I would recommend any of >> above for analog capture. I have a PVR-150 and have been very happy >> with it for capture off cable TV. >> >> Now the bad news, in the lead-up to analog TV shutdown the Federal >> Communications Commission in the US banned the sale of analog only >> capture cards. This in turn meant that Hauppauge stopped production of >> the PVR series. Basicly the only place you will find PVR cards for >> sale is on the used market. >> >> There are some cards currently on the market, such as the Hauppauge >> HVR series that can do HDTV and analog capture. Problem here is that >> the open source HDTV side of these drivers get all the attention, and >> the analog side of these cards ... well that tends to be problematic. > > i bought a hd-pvr and I noticed they are still selling, The old PVR series (the model 150, 250, 350 and 500) have been dropped as they could only deal with with analog TV (thus banned by the FCC in the US). The (fairly) new Hauppauge HD-PVR can deal with digital broadcasts, thus is allowed in the US. Your guess is as good as mine as to how long the HD-PVR will be around, likely it will be as long as both Hauppauge is around and the product is profitable for Hauppauge... > you sure they are cutting them, i might consider buying another, > records 720p and 1080i very nice in linux, and of course subverts all that > nasty copy protection, which oddly enough is fine to do in canada. > > tl >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Colin McGregor >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > -- > ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 16:58:23 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:58:23 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming Message-ID: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Anyone do any PIC MIDI programming. I want to make an electronic bagpipe, questions I have are: How to use a MIDI chip to output sound alternatively how to use a DAC to output more than one channel. I guess I could use multiple DAC's any resources including PIC programming, would be welcome. Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 17:12:19 2009 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:12:19 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091029131219.5r4e4zp9cgwwgcgs@easymail.pathcom.com> ----- Message from davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org --------- > How to use a MIDI chip to output sound Since I'm not familiar with "PIC" there's a fair chance that I don't understand the question, but.... Typically MIDI is strictly data and has no intrinsic sound. It can get sent to some kind of sound-producing device that interprets it and makes sound based on the MIDI instructions. There are integrated devices that do both, I guess, but I think of them as sound modules that happen to understand MIDI. :-) Is it some specific device that you're trying to program or just anything that accepts MIDI (or GM)? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 17:31:42 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:31:42 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <20091029131219.5r4e4zp9cgwwgcgs-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <20091029131219.5r4e4zp9cgwwgcgs@easymail.pathcom.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910291031xb4207c8qc643585f5ee69458@mail.gmail.com> The end goal is to create an electronic bagpipe. Yes, I know I can buy one, but I'd like to build it. So it has 8 switch inputs and outputs notes depending on which switches are pressed. So my initial thought was to use a PIC microcontroller to read the switches and then either output to a MIDI synth chip, or generate the notes with the PIC and a D to A Now for those unfamiliar with bagpipes they actually have 4 reeds in total so I would need 4 DAC's ( I think ) Dave On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Phillip Mills wrote: > ----- Message from davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org --------- > > > How to use a MIDI chip to output sound >> > > Since I'm not familiar with "PIC" there's a fair chance that I don't > understand the question, but.... Typically MIDI is strictly data and has no > intrinsic sound. It can get sent to some kind of sound-producing device > that interprets it and makes sound based on the MIDI instructions. There > are integrated devices that do both, I guess, but I think of them as sound > modules that happen to understand MIDI. :-) > > Is it some specific device that you're trying to program or just anything > that accepts MIDI (or GM)? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 17:42:55 2009 From: pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:42:55 -0700 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <471d08f5521a51da9408c162782b38c9.squirrel@petelancashire.com> By PIC do you mean the IC family made by Microchip ? If so here's a couple URLs from a quick search http://www.audiomulch.com/midipic/ http://m.bareille.free.fr/midi2pic/midi2pic.htm MIDI devices by them selves do no output sound, think if MIDI as a protocol just like TCP/IP is. A MIDI command in its simplest form basically says 'play note x on instrument y for n seconds' (Not exact but). It is up to hardware and software to take the command and process it. At the very end of these blocks there is at least one Digigal to analog converter (with filtering and a gain/isolation block). As to your question on needing more then one DAC, the digital data for these 'instruments' can be combined (summed etc) and then fed to a single DAC. Think of a stereo amp in mono mode. To keep this on a Linux/OSS level you can dig into the code in some of the various music players. -pete > Hi, > > Anyone do any PIC MIDI programming. I want to make an electronic bagpipe, > questions I have are: > > How to use a MIDI chip to output sound > alternatively how to use a DAC to output more than one channel. I guess I > could use multiple DAC's > > any resources including PIC programming, would be welcome. > > Dave > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 17:41:56 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:41:56 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE9D3E4.6020704@utoronto.ca> Dave Cramer wrote: > Hi, > > Anyone do any PIC MIDI programming. I want to make an electronic bagpipe, > questions I have are: > > How to use a MIDI chip to output sound > alternatively how to use a DAC to output more than one channel. I guess I > could use multiple DAC's > > any resources including PIC programming, would be welcome. Try using an Arduino -- open hardware schematic, and they have an open source ide as well. http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/Midi Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 17:58:29 2009 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:58:29 +0000 Subject: [OT]Gmail message Source Message-ID: I am trying to find a way to get the originating IP address of an email sent from a gmail account. To make a long story short, I'd like to show that some emails originated from a certain location. I think that location has a static IP address. It's rather important. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, John. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 18:27:08 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:27:08 -0400 Subject: [OT]Gmail message Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0910291127g641554d2qa9f8c059ba7d7b39@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 1:58 PM, wrote: > I am trying to find a way to get the originating IP address of an email sent > from a gmail account. I'm not sure how much help this will be but on the right-hand side of each message you should find a drop-down. Look for the 'Show Original' option. That will get you the headers. In looking through a number of messages in my inbox the only place I found an originating IP header was, ironically enough, your email. I don't see anything particularly useful for you in the headers from my or other Gmail users' messages. Then again I'm not feeling well and may have missed something. :S Best of luck -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 18:45:25 2009 From: pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:45:25 -0700 Subject: [OT]pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910291031xb4207c8qc643585f5ee69458-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <20091029131219.5r4e4zp9cgwwgcgs@easymail.pathcom.com> <491f66a50910291031xb4207c8qc643585f5ee69458@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > The end goal is to create an electronic bagpipe. Yes, I know I can buy > one, but I'd like to build it. > > So it has 8 switch inputs and outputs notes depending on which switches > are pressed. Ah ok .. a PIC or ARM are good and cheap. do a google search lots of free designs. I've built MIDI -> 'stuff' devices in the past. Where stuff has been anything from banks of lights to solenoids hitting 5 gallon plastic buckets. I've never done a switch -> MIDI. > So my initial thought was to use a PIC microcontroller to read the > switches and then either output to a MIDI synth chip, or generate > the notes with the PIC and a D to A. > > Now for those unfamiliar with bagpipes they actually have 4 reeds > in total so I would need 4 DAC's ( I think ) The major building blocks 1. switch contact to MIDI 2. MIDI to instrument 3. instrument to analog output You have two choices for the instrument, sampled or synthesizer. The output from the "instrument" can be summed into one digital output then sent to a single DAC/filter/amp. A clean DAC/filter/amp is not easy but there are a lot of designs that can be copied. With all the distortion a bag pipe puts out, I'd hate to see the DSP code :-). check out http://www.ucapps.de/index.html click around, i think there is a switch->MIDI somewhere in there and http://ask.metafilter.com/57144/How-to-get-started-with-MIDI-on-the-cheap > > Dave > > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Phillip Mills > wrote: > >> ----- Message from davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org --------- >> >> >> How to use a MIDI chip to output sound >>> >> >> Since I'm not familiar with "PIC" there's a fair chance that I don't >> understand the question, but.... Typically MIDI is strictly data and >> has no >> intrinsic sound. It can get sent to some kind of sound-producing device >> that interprets it and makes sound based on the MIDI instructions. >> There >> are integrated devices that do both, I guess, but I think of them as >> sound >> modules that happen to understand MIDI. :-) >> >> Is it some specific device that you're trying to program or just >> anything >> that accepts MIDI (or GM)? >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 19:13:24 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:13:24 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> Dave Cramer wrote: > Anyone do any PIC MIDI programming. I want to make an electronic bagpipe, > questions I have are: > > How to use a MIDI chip to output sound > alternatively how to use a DAC to output more than one channel. I guess I > could use multiple DAC's > > any resources including PIC programming, would be welcome. MIDI transport layer is UART output at 31250 baud 8 bits, no parity, one stop bit, buffered to drive an opto-isolator at the receiving end. The messages, at the absolute bare-bones minimum are: To turn a note On send bits: 1001cccc 0nnnnnnn 0vvvvvvv cccc is a "channel number" decided arbitrarily between you and the MIDI-controlled sound generator you're dealing with. nnnnnnn is a "note number". Notes are numbered up and down the chromatic scale, with 0x4C (decimal 60) representing middle C. vvvvvvv is a "velocity" which controls the volume of the note. Larger means louder. Zero means silence. So to turn on middle C on a synth listening on channel 2 with reasonable loudness, send the 3 bytes 0x92 0x4C 0xC0 To turn a note off, do as above but with zero velocity. 0x91 0x4C 0x00 There's lots more, but just this will make things happen. I too agree that Arduino would be a good way to get results fast (caveat -- check that Arduino serial ports can handle 31250 baud.) You can get the hardware locally if you want at Creatron, at 255 College St. http://www.creatroninc.com . If you lose MIDI and do the sound yourself, I'd think start with 3 fixed-pitch square waves for the drones and a tuned wave for the chanter, followed by the rudiments of a low-pass filter. It might fool a few people. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 19:28:02 2009 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Gmail message Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <579069.75565.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 10/29/09, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > I am trying to find a way to get the originating IP address > of an email sent from a gmail account. > > To make a long story short, I'd like to show that some > emails originated from a certain location. I think that > location has a static IP address. It's rather > important. The headers of gmail emails contain lots of IP addresses :) Probably the one you want is included. I looked an an email I downloaded using a POP3 client, Thunderbird. GMail may not make them all visible while online. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 19:44:09 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:44:09 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <4AE9E954.6060502-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910291244w6d866ecbv59d079e158867b64@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > Dave Cramer wrote: > >> Anyone do any PIC MIDI programming. I want to make an electronic bagpipe, >> questions I have are: >> >> How to use a MIDI chip to output sound >> alternatively how to use a DAC to output more than one channel. I guess I >> could use multiple DAC's >> >> any resources including PIC programming, would be welcome. >> > > MIDI transport layer is UART output at 31250 baud 8 bits, no parity, one > stop bit, buffered to drive an opto-isolator at the receiving end. The > messages, at the absolute bare-bones minimum are: > > To turn a note On send bits: > > 1001cccc 0nnnnnnn 0vvvvvvv > > cccc is a "channel number" decided arbitrarily between you and the > MIDI-controlled sound generator you're dealing with. > > nnnnnnn is a "note number". Notes are numbered up and down the chromatic > scale, with 0x4C (decimal 60) representing middle C. > > vvvvvvv is a "velocity" which controls the volume of the note. Larger > means louder. Zero means silence. > > So to turn on middle C on a synth listening on channel 2 with reasonable > loudness, send the 3 bytes > > 0x92 0x4C 0xC0 > > > To turn a note off, do as above but with zero velocity. > > 0x91 0x4C 0x00 > > > There's lots more, but just this will make things happen. > > I too agree that Arduino would be a good way to get results fast (caveat -- > check that Arduino serial ports can handle 31250 baud.) You can get the > hardware locally if you want at Creatron, at 255 College St. > http://www.creatroninc.com . > > > If you lose MIDI and do the sound yourself, I'd think start with 3 > fixed-pitch square waves for the drones and a tuned wave for the chanter, > followed by the rudiments of a low-pass filter. It might fool a few people. > Thanks for all the answers, this has been educational. I've actually found a pretty interesting chip http://www.speechchips.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=2 Although I may decide to try creating the voices myself. Dave > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 19:47:38 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:47:38 -0400 Subject: [OT]Gmail message Source In-Reply-To: <579069.75565.qm-d7tsDWDCFVGB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <579069.75565.qm@web88104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0910291247n52585a90kd509f588b878e6ba@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Stephen wrote: > > The headers of gmail emails contain lots of IP addresses :) Probably the one you want is included. > > I looked an an email I downloaded using a POP3 client, Thunderbird. > > GMail may not make them all visible while online. Gah. Just realized John isn't a gmail user. Sorry 'bout the noise in my last message... Duh. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ @psema4 Member of the Pirate Party of Canada http://www.pirateparty.ca/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 19:52:23 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:52:23 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <4AE9E954.6060502-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <4AE9F277.3040401@the-wire.com> Mel Wilson wrote: > So to turn on middle C on a synth listening on channel 2 with reasonable > loudness, send the 3 bytes > > 0x92 0x4C 0xC0 There's a serious thinko! Any byte with the high-order bit set starts a new command sequence. It ain't data. The 0xC0 should be half that, instead. Like 0x60. Sorry. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 20:01:37 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:01:37 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910291244w6d866ecbv59d079e158867b64-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910291244w6d866ecbv59d079e158867b64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE9F4A1.6030307@the-wire.com> Dave Cramer wrote: > Thanks for all the answers, this has been educational. > > I've actually found a pretty interesting chip > http://www.speechchips.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=2 Indeed. I hate the price, but ... I've got a mixed-signal Cypress PSoC CY8C29466 microcontroller here that, in theory, I'll find the time to try something with. (NOTE the thinko alert on that post of mine, above. 0xC0 should have read 0x60 .) Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 20:42:19 2009 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:42:19 +0000 Subject: [OT]Gmail message Source Message-ID: > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: [OT]Gmail message Source > From: marc-LS3TOEUECMo/ppqrhe30yd4JHULOz3QN at public.gmane.org > To: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org > Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:48:38 -0400 > > Use a client that let's you see the full message headers and look for > the header X-Originating-IP. > > M I set up Thunderbird to download his gmail messages. Looking at the messages in question, I only found a "Received by" IP address. Nothing for originating, which is what I really need. Any other ideas? Would google supply this info if requested, anyone know? > > On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 17:58 +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: > > I am trying to find a way to get the originating IP address of an > > email sent from a gmail account. > > > > To make a long story short, I'd like to show that some emails > > originated from a certain location. I think that location has a static > > IP address. It's rather important. > > > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > John. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 21:13:38 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:13:38 -0500 Subject: [OT]Gmail message Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the sender used google webmail, google is probably the only source of this information, if it exists at all. I highly doubt that it would be legal for them to release the information, short of a court order (I believe that PIPEDA requires that such information be held confidential, strictly protected and not released to unauthorized parties). I other words, unless you're prepared to take legal action you probably aren't going to be able to find out (legally - I suppose a highly illegal crack of google's servers may find the information, but there is no way I would ever recommend that and I sincerely hope you wouldn't consider trying). Regards, the other Colin On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 3:42 PM, wrote: > >> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: [OT]Gmail message Source >> From: marc-LS3TOEUECMo/ppqrhe30yd4JHULOz3QN at public.gmane.org >> To: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org >> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:48:38 -0400 >> >> Use a client that let's you see the full message headers and look for >> the header X-Originating-IP. >> >> M > > > I set up Thunderbird to download his gmail messages. Looking at the messages > in question, I only found a "Received by" IP address. Nothing for > originating, which is what I really need. > > Any other ideas? Would google supply this info if requested, anyone know? > > > >> >> On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 17:58 +0000, john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org wrote: >> > I am trying to find a way to get the originating IP address of an >> > email sent from a gmail account. >> > >> > To make a long story short, I'd like to show that some emails >> > originated from a certain location. I think that location has a static >> > IP address. It's rather important. >> > >> > Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > John. >> > >> > >> > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 22:03:33 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:03:33 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910291244w6d866ecbv59d079e158867b64-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910291244w6d866ecbv59d079e158867b64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AEA1135.50306@the-wire.com> Dave Cramer wrote: > I've actually found a pretty interesting chip > http://www.speechchips.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=2 > > Although I may decide to try creating the voices myself. Now you've got me going. If square waves + low-pass could do it, then a really simple uC with 4 16-bit output compares might work. I'm wondering ATmega48 or -168. But I notice there are no plaid-covered Chumbies. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 22:33:02 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:33:02 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <4AEA1135.50306-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910291244w6d866ecbv59d079e158867b64@mail.gmail.com> <4AEA1135.50306@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910291533s4d9bfa36q810b9f809c73783e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > Dave Cramer wrote: > > I've actually found a pretty interesting chip >> http://www.speechchips.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=2 >> >> Although I may decide to try creating the voices myself. >> > > Now you've got me going. If square waves + low-pass could do it, then a > really simple uC with 4 16-bit output compares might work. I'm wondering > ATmega48 or -168. > > Well the drones are pretty simple two of them are at the same frequency, and one of them is at a lower frequency, but they never change. The chanter is a little more difficult. The problem with the square wave/filter idea is there is no volume control. But it's certainly an interesting start. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Oct 29 23:45:44 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT] The internet is 40 years old today! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Chris F.A. Johnson | The internet is 40 years old today! | | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8331253.stm I've heard so many media sources say that this was the beginning of the internet. The Globe and Mail article headline said that it was the beginning of the web! Personally, I feel that there was no single beginning and that many different creations and inventions fed into what we now call the internet. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 00:52:28 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:52:28 -0400 Subject: Imagine... Message-ID: http://ied.unipr.it/silve/node125.html -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Jonathan Swift - "May you live every day of your life." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jonathan_swift.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 01:01:39 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:01:39 -0400 Subject: Imagine... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7c50d3570910291801r68977545m7201e3658db9a4c8@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > http://ied.unipr.it/silve/node125.html > > -- > http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html > Jonathan Swift ?- "May you live every day of your life." - > http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jonathan_swift.html > Now only if someone made that into a video and put it up on YouTube. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 01:31:10 2009 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:31:10 -0400 Subject: [OT] The internet is 40 years old today! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200910292131.11567.dbmacg@look.ca> > Personally, I feel that there was no single beginning Actually the beginning was surely the first demonstration of a standard network interchange between the systems of different vendors. It was driven by a customer, (DOD) not a vendor to avoid vendor lock-in. Each vendor, (IBM, CDC, Honeywell, Burroughs, etc.) had developed their own incompatible network. Often vendor networks could not even talk to all their own products, let alone their competitor's machines. The marketing perspective was that a locked-in customer would *have* to buy more product, because they could not leave. This was a 'milk-the-base' strategy among mainframe vendors, and is echoed still in the PC world for decades as seen with Appletalk, and Microsoft's SMB. Anyone who has had to get Apple gear working with Microsoft PCs sees this still. There is still a need for the 'Dave' product, after all these years. There is *still* a need for Samba. Duncan On October 29, 2009 07:45:44 pm D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Chris F.A. Johnson > > | The internet is 40 years old today! . . . > I've heard so many media sources say that this was the beginning of > the internet. The Globe and Mail article headline said that it was > the beginning of the web! > > Personally, I feel that there was no single beginning and that many > different creations and inventions fed into what we now call the > internet. -- Duncan MacGregor -- Toronto -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 02:26:45 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:26:45 -0400 Subject: [OT] The internet is 40 years old today! In-Reply-To: <200910292131.11567.dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM@public.gmane.org> References: <200910292131.11567.dbmacg@look.ca> Message-ID: <4AEA4EE5.4010608@the-wire.com> Duncan MacGregor wrote: > Actually the beginning was surely the first demonstration of a standard network interchange between the systems of different vendors. It was driven by a customer, (DOD) not a vendor to avoid vendor lock-in. > Each vendor, (IBM, CDC, Honeywell, Burroughs, etc.) had developed their own incompatible network. Often vendor networks could not even talk to all their own products, let alone their competitor's machines. Not so much in Honeywell's case. Each customer had developed its own network, and Honeywell would get one if its two or three communications specialists to come in and create a unique Datanet-355 program to handle the protocols. Your point remains, though. No two systems that weren't born in the same litter would even dream of exchanging data remotely. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 02:56:01 2009 From: dbmacg-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Duncan MacGregor) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:56:01 -0400 Subject: [OT] The internet is 40 years old today! In-Reply-To: <4AEA4EE5.4010608-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <200910292131.11567.dbmacg@look.ca> <4AEA4EE5.4010608@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <200910292256.01811.dbmacg@look.ca> On October 29, 2009 10:26:45 pm Mel Wilson wrote: > Not so much in Honeywell's case. Each customer had developed its own > network, and Honeywell would get one if its two or three > communications specialists to come in and create a unique Datanet-355 > program to handle the protocols. Your point remains, though. No two > systems that weren't born in the same litter would even dream of > exchanging data remotely. >Each customer had developed or inherited >its own network You are right. Modifying a Datanet-355 using NPS was not uncommon. so as to recognize a *terminal* device. I remember briefly working with a customer's NPS setup to use a teletype as a remote terminal. Hopping across the floor at 75 baud? The host-terminal notion was pretty strong, but we were a long way from the peer-to-peer network we assume today. DPS6s, DPS7s, and DPS8s could not talk to each other readily, in the manner that we now take for granted. -- Duncan MacGregor -- Toronto -- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 03:43:26 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:43:26 -0400 Subject: need to burn an audio CD Message-ID: Should be easy, right? I googled it, suggestions are many years old and refer to applications that do not even exist any more. That makes sense, because I haven't burned an audio CD in years. All I want to do is decode some mp3's and burn the resulting wav's as an audio CD, but for the life of me I can't remember how the heck I used to do it. I see there is an 'mp3towav' on my system, and I think what I used to use was cdrdao, and I needed a TOC file or something? Anyway, I'm supposed to have this for my daughter for tomorrow morning for a Halloween party, so, any tips greatly appreciated. -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 05:29:04 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:29:04 -0400 Subject: need to burn an audio CD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7c50d3570910292229q1edeb96ak4d8a1d2be851e35d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:43 PM, Thomas Milne wrote: > Should be easy, right? I googled it, suggestions are many years old > and refer to applications that do not even exist any more. That makes > sense, because I haven't burned an audio CD in years. > > All I want to do is decode some mp3's and burn the resulting wav's as > an audio CD, but for the life of me I can't remember how the heck I > used to do it. I see there is an 'mp3towav' on my system, and I think > what I used to use was cdrdao, and I needed a TOC file or something? > > Anyway, I'm supposed to have this for my daughter for tomorrow morning > for a Halloween party, so, any tips greatly appreciated. > > -- > TBM > -- > Use k3b (http://k3b.org/). -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 06:14:03 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:14:03 -0400 Subject: USB key == USB hard drive??? Message-ID: <20091030061403.GA5348@waltdnes.org> I got me a shiny new toy at home this week, an Acer Aspire One 11.6" laptop. I had been intending to confirm that it worked under Vista, then blow it away, and install Linux. But it looks like I'll be keeping Windows for a little while longer. We're doing "pandemic planning" at work, and one possibility is having MS Office loaded on my machine (OK under our site licence) for me to work at home if required. Regardless, I still wanted to set up a Knoppix boot USB key. So I followed instructions, and * set up the USB key * selected "USB KEY" as the first boot option in the BIOS * inserted the key into a USB slot * rebooted But Windows came up each time. A couple of looks later at the BIOS menu, it finally dawned on me. The item labelled "USB HD" had changed to include a truncated description of my USB key. So the key was being identied as a USB drive, instead. Once I figured that out, I moved the "USB HD" entry ahead of the regular HD entry. Now Knoppix comes up when the key is inserted before booting, otherwise, Windows comes up. If anybody has a similar problem, your cause and solution may be similar. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 06:29:00 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:29:00 -0400 Subject: need to burn an audio CD In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910292229q1edeb96ak4d8a1d2be851e35d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910292229q1edeb96ak4d8a1d2be851e35d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:29 AM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:43 PM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> Should be easy, right? I googled it, suggestions are many years old >> and refer to applications that do not even exist any more. That makes >> sense, because I haven't burned an audio CD in years. >> >> All I want to do is decode some mp3's and burn the resulting wav's as >> an audio CD, but for the life of me I can't remember how the heck I >> used to do it. I see there is an 'mp3towav' on my system, and I think >> what I used to use was cdrdao, and I needed a TOC file or something? >> >> Anyway, I'm supposed to have this for my daughter for tomorrow morning >> for a Halloween party, so, any tips greatly appreciated. >> >> -- >> TBM >> -- >> > > Use k3b (http://k3b.org/). > That's kind of a hammer to kill an ant ;) Turns out this is all I really need: 1. mkdir wav for file in *.mp3 ; do lame --decode "$file" "wav/$file.wav" done 2. cd wav { echo "CD_DA" for file in *.wav ; do echo "TRACK AUDIO" echo "FILE \"$file\" 0" done } > toc 3. cdrdao write --speed 8 toc -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 06:33:06 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:33:06 -0400 Subject: need to burn an audio CD In-Reply-To: References: <7c50d3570910292229q1edeb96ak4d8a1d2be851e35d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570910292333s107119bcy4f0d78f4357f8d8f@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:29 AM, Thomas Milne wrote: > That's kind of a hammer to kill an ant ;) > > Turns out this is all I really need: > > 1. > > mkdir wav > for file in *.mp3 ; do > ? lame --decode "$file" "wav/$file.wav" > done > > 2. > > cd wav > { > ?echo "CD_DA" > ?for file in *.wav ; do > ? ?echo "TRACK AUDIO" > ? ?echo "FILE \"$file\" 0" > ?done > } > toc > > > 3. > > cdrdao write --speed 8 toc > > -- > TBM > -- > I was trying to make it easy for you, you asked for something, and I provided an answer. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 14:49:03 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:49:03 -0700 Subject: need to burn an audio CD In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570910292333s107119bcy4f0d78f4357f8d8f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570910292229q1edeb96ak4d8a1d2be851e35d@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570910292333s107119bcy4f0d78f4357f8d8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0910300749n399a52acid5c93bddf0833398@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Michael Lauzon wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:29 AM, Thomas Milne > wrote: >> That's kind of a hammer to kill an ant ;) >> >> Turns out this is all I really need: >> >> 1. >> >> mkdir wav >> for file in *.mp3 ; do >> ? lame --decode "$file" "wav/$file.wav" >> done >> >> 2. >> >> cd wav >> { >> ?echo "CD_DA" >> ?for file in *.wav ; do >> ? ?echo "TRACK AUDIO" >> ? ?echo "FILE \"$file\" 0" >> ?done >> } > toc >> >> >> 3. >> >> cdrdao write --speed 8 toc >> >> -- >> TBM >> -- >> > > I was trying to make it easy for you, you asked for something, and I > provided an answer. > > > -- Actually, that would have been my answer too. For all the annoyances that some KDE apps give me, K3b is awesome for pretty much anything involving burning. -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (778) 890-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 14:55:58 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:55:58 +0000 Subject: need to burn an audio CD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091030145558.GA29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:43:26PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: > Should be easy, right? I googled it, suggestions are many years old > and refer to applications that do not even exist any more. That makes > sense, because I haven't burned an audio CD in years. > > All I want to do is decode some mp3's and burn the resulting wav's as > an audio CD, but for the life of me I can't remember how the heck I > used to do it. I see there is an 'mp3towav' on my system, and I think > what I used to use was cdrdao, and I needed a TOC file or something? > > Anyway, I'm supposed to have this for my daughter for tomorrow morning > for a Halloween party, so, any tips greatly appreciated. mpg321 (with -w option) cdrdao -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 15:01:29 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:01:29 +0000 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910291031xb4207c8qc643585f5ee69458-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <20091029131219.5r4e4zp9cgwwgcgs@easymail.pathcom.com> <491f66a50910291031xb4207c8qc643585f5ee69458@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091030150129.GB29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 01:31:42PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > The end goal is to create an electronic bagpipe. Yes, I know I can buy one, > but I'd like to build it. > > So it has 8 switch inputs and outputs notes depending on which switches are > pressed. > > So my initial thought was to use a PIC microcontroller to read the switches > and then either output to a MIDI synth chip, or generate the notes with the > PIC and a D to A > > Now for those unfamiliar with bagpipes they actually have 4 reeds in total > so I would need 4 DAC's ( I think ) Unless you want to get into the accoustics and wonder how many that would take. Of course if you did the physics simulation in software you probably only need one output. You also need a serious amp if you want to get anywhere near bagpipes. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 15:02:48 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:02:48 +0000 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <471d08f5521a51da9408c162782b38c9.squirrel-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <471d08f5521a51da9408c162782b38c9.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Message-ID: <20091030150248.GC29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:42:55AM -0700, Pete Lancashire wrote: > By PIC do you mean the IC family made by Microchip ? > > If so here's a couple URLs from a quick search > > http://www.audiomulch.com/midipic/ > http://m.bareille.free.fr/midi2pic/midi2pic.htm > > MIDI devices by them selves do no output sound, think if MIDI as > a protocol just like TCP/IP is. > > A MIDI command in its simplest form basically says 'play note > x on instrument y for n seconds' (Not exact but). It is up to > hardware and software to take the command and process it. At > the very end of these blocks there is at least one Digigal to > analog converter (with filtering and a gain/isolation block). I believe it actually sends note on/note off commands, not duration. > As to your question on needing more then one DAC, the digital > data for these 'instruments' can be combined (summed etc) and > then fed to a single DAC. Think of a stereo amp in mono mode. > > To keep this on a Linux/OSS level you can dig into the code > in some of the various music players. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 15:07:04 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:07:04 +0000 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <4AE9E954.6060502-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 03:13:24PM -0400, Mel Wilson wrote: > MIDI transport layer is UART output at 31250 baud 8 bits, no parity, one > stop bit, buffered to drive an opto-isolator at the receiving end. The > messages, at the absolute bare-bones minimum are: > > To turn a note On send bits: > > 1001cccc 0nnnnnnn 0vvvvvvv > > cccc is a "channel number" decided arbitrarily between you and the > MIDI-controlled sound generator you're dealing with. > > nnnnnnn is a "note number". Notes are numbered up and down the > chromatic scale, with 0x4C (decimal 60) representing middle C. > > vvvvvvv is a "velocity" which controls the volume of the note. Larger > means louder. Zero means silence. > > So to turn on middle C on a synth listening on channel 2 with reasonable > loudness, send the 3 bytes > > 0x92 0x4C 0xC0 > > > To turn a note off, do as above but with zero velocity. > > 0x91 0x4C 0x00 > > > There's lots more, but just this will make things happen. > > I too agree that Arduino would be a good way to get results fast (caveat > -- check that Arduino serial ports can handle 31250 baud.) You can get > the hardware locally if you want at Creatron, at 255 College St. > http://www.creatroninc.com . > > > If you lose MIDI and do the sound yourself, I'd think start with 3 > fixed-pitch square waves for the drones and a tuned wave for the > chanter, followed by the rudiments of a low-pass filter. It might fool a > few people. The fixed pitch being two at about an A (and octave below the keynote of the chanter) and the other one being an octave below that. A being about 480Hz in this case, not 440. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 15:08:03 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:08:03 +0000 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910291533s4d9bfa36q810b9f809c73783e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910291244w6d866ecbv59d079e158867b64@mail.gmail.com> <4AEA1135.50306@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910291533s4d9bfa36q810b9f809c73783e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091030150803.GE29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 06:33:02PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > Well the drones are pretty simple two of them are at the same frequency, and > one of them is at a lower frequency, but they never change. > > The chanter is a little more difficult. The problem with the square > wave/filter idea is there is no volume control. Well bagpipes don't have volume control either, so that sounds OK. :) > But it's certainly an interesting start. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 15:12:40 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:12:40 +0000 Subject: [OT] The internet is 40 years old today! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091030151240.GF29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 07:45:44PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Chris F.A. Johnson > > | The internet is 40 years old today! > | > | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8331253.stm > > I've heard so many media sources say that this was the beginning of > the internet. The Globe and Mail article headline said that it was > the beginning of the web! > > Personally, I feel that there was no single beginning and that many > different creations and inventions fed into what we now call the > internet. Well data sent between the first two nodes of arpanet which later became the internet does seem like the start of the internet. It was not necesarily the start of the web though since that was probably more related to http/html in the early 90s. The web requires the internet, but the internet worked fine before the web came along. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 15:18:01 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:18:01 -0400 Subject: need to burn an audio CD In-Reply-To: <20091030145558.GA29304-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20091030145558.GA29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:43:26PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote: >> Should be easy, right? I googled it, suggestions are many years old >> and refer to applications that do not even exist any more. That makes >> sense, because I haven't burned an audio CD in years. >> >> All I want to do is decode some mp3's and burn the resulting wav's as >> an audio CD, but for the life of me I can't remember how the heck I >> used to do it. I see there is an 'mp3towav' on my system, and I think >> what I used to use was cdrdao, and I needed a TOC file or something? >> >> Anyway, I'm supposed to have this for my daughter for tomorrow morning >> for a Halloween party, so, any tips greatly appreciated. > > mpg321 (with -w option) > cdrdao > That ended up being what I did, except lame instead of mpg321. I used to use cdrdao all the time, but could not for the life of me remember how to create a TOC file. -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 15:28:30 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:28:30 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <20091030150129.GB29304-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <20091029131219.5r4e4zp9cgwwgcgs@easymail.pathcom.com> <491f66a50910291031xb4207c8qc643585f5ee69458@mail.gmail.com> <20091030150129.GB29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <491f66a50910300828p486f5db2ua9a5e29b241e17eb@mail.gmail.com> > > Unless you want to get into the accoustics and wonder how many that > would take. Of course if you did the physics simulation in software you > probably only need one output. You also need a serious amp if you want > to get anywhere near bagpipes. :) > > Well I have 3 pipers in my family so I'm familiar with the energy one of these puts out. but having a practice chanter they can use their headphones with is one of the goals, the other is to have an interesting project for my son( one of the pipers) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 16:05:58 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:05:58 -0400 Subject: [OT] The internet is 40 years old today! In-Reply-To: <20091030151240.GF29304-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20091030151240.GF29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AEB0EE6.7090502@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > Well data sent between the first two nodes of arpanet which later > became the internet does seem like the start of the internet. It was > not necesarily the start of the web though since that was probably more > related to http/html in the early 90s. The web requires the internet, > but the internet worked fine before the web came along. > > Here's another article about it: http://www.computerhistory.org/internet_history/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 19:29:55 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:29:55 -0400 Subject: USB key == USB hard drive??? In-Reply-To: <20091030061403.GA5348-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org> References: <20091030061403.GA5348@waltdnes.org> Message-ID: <20091030192955.GA10835@gondolin.home.yipyip.ca> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 02:14:03AM -0400, waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote: > Regardless, I still wanted to set up a Knoppix boot USB key. So I > followed instructions, and > * set up the USB key > * selected "USB KEY" as the first boot option in the BIOS > * inserted the key into a USB slot > * rebooted > But Windows came up each time. A couple of looks later at the BIOS > menu, it finally dawned on me. The item labelled "USB HD" had changed > to include a truncated description of my USB key. So the key was being > identied as a USB drive, instead. Once I figured that out, I moved the > "USB HD" entry ahead of the regular HD entry. Now Knoppix comes up when > the key is inserted before booting, otherwise, Windows comes up. If > anybody has a similar problem, your cause and solution may be similar. They're all USB Mass Storage devices. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_mass-storage_device_class Does the Acer actually have different boot options for "usb key" and "usb hard drive"? I wonder what the difference is supposed to be. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 19:50:44 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:50:44 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <20091030150704.GD29304-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4AEB4394.7030408@the-wire.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 03:13:24PM -0400, Mel Wilson wrote: >> If you lose MIDI and do the sound yourself, I'd think start with 3 >> fixed-pitch square waves for the drones and a tuned wave for the >> chanter, followed by the rudiments of a low-pass filter. It might fool a >> few people. > > The fixed pitch being two at about an A (and octave below the keynote > of the chanter) and the other one being an octave below that. A being > about 480Hz in this case, not 440. Really! Just short of a tone sharp. I can change the numbers for that. A MIDI solution can do it too, by manipulating the Fine Tuning parameter for its channel. The square waves so far are almost-but-not-quite-entirely-unlike pipes. They will only fool people who want to be fooled, but I haven't done much about a high-cut filter yet. I tried to enrich the sound by detuning the two high drone sounds by 1/8 semitone each way, but got an ugly beat at about 3/second. Probably needs more subtlety, maybe an LFSR to shake up the detuning in a less repetitious way. The thing needs an ATmega128. The -48, -168 etc. don't have enough timer output compares to do it nicely. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 19:58:13 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:58:13 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <4AEB4394.7030408-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AEB4394.7030408@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50910301258s60e80651k199173a0fae44858@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > >> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 03:13:24PM -0400, Mel Wilson wrote: >> > > If you lose MIDI and do the sound yourself, I'd think start with 3 >>> fixed-pitch square waves for the drones and a tuned wave for the chanter, >>> followed by the rudiments of a low-pass filter. It might fool a few people. >>> >> >> The fixed pitch being two at about an A (and octave below the keynote >> of the chanter) and the other one being an octave below that. A being >> about 480Hz in this case, not 440. >> > > Really! Just short of a tone sharp. I can change the numbers for that. A > MIDI solution can do it too, by manipulating the Fine Tuning parameter for > its channel. > > The square waves so far are almost-but-not-quite-entirely-unlike pipes. > They will only fool people who want to be fooled, but I haven't done much > about a high-cut filter yet. I tried to enrich the sound by detuning the > two high drone sounds by 1/8 semitone each way, but got an ugly beat at > about 3/second. Probably needs more subtlety, maybe an LFSR to shake up the > detuning in a less repetitious way. > > The thing needs an ATmega128. The -48, -168 etc. don't have enough timer > output compares to do it nicely. > Well pipers spend a whole lot of time doing exactly this, tuning their drones ;) Dave > > Mel. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 20:02:16 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:02:16 +0000 Subject: USB key == USB hard drive??? In-Reply-To: <20091030192955.GA10835-XQvu0L+U/CjGzwq5IRNa4gvvzUkNGRG8@public.gmane.org> References: <20091030061403.GA5348@waltdnes.org> <20091030192955.GA10835@gondolin.home.yipyip.ca> Message-ID: <20091030200216.GG29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 03:29:55PM -0400, Andrej Marjan wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 02:14:03AM -0400, waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org wrote: > > > Regardless, I still wanted to set up a Knoppix boot USB key. So I > > followed instructions, and > > > * set up the USB key > > * selected "USB KEY" as the first boot option in the BIOS > > * inserted the key into a USB slot > > * rebooted > > > But Windows came up each time. A couple of looks later at the BIOS > > menu, it finally dawned on me. The item labelled "USB HD" had changed > > to include a truncated description of my USB key. So the key was being > > identied as a USB drive, instead. Once I figured that out, I moved the > > "USB HD" entry ahead of the regular HD entry. Now Knoppix comes up when > > the key is inserted before booting, otherwise, Windows comes up. If > > anybody has a similar problem, your cause and solution may be similar. > > They're all USB Mass Storage devices. See > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_mass-storage_device_class > > Does the Acer actually have different boot options for "usb key" and > "usb hard drive"? I wonder what the difference is supposed to be. Partitioned versus non partitioned probably. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 20:04:27 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:04:27 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <4AEB4394.7030408-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AEB4394.7030408@the-wire.com> Message-ID: <4AEB46CB.2010204@utoronto.ca> Mel Wilson wrote: > Really! Just short of a tone sharp. I can change the numbers for > that. A MIDI solution can do it too, by manipulating the Fine Tuning > parameter for its channel. > > The square waves so far are almost-but-not-quite-entirely-unlike pipes. > They will only fool people who want to be fooled, but I haven't done > much about a high-cut filter yet. I tried to enrich the sound by > detuning the two high drone sounds by 1/8 semitone each way, but got an > ugly beat at about 3/second. Probably needs more subtlety, maybe an > LFSR to shake up the detuning in a less repetitious way. > > The thing needs an ATmega128. The -48, -168 etc. don't have enough > timer output compares to do it nicely. What about a 1280? The Arduino Mega uses one, and is available at Creatron just at College and Spadina. http://creatroninc.com/product.php?ProductID=62 Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 20:16:34 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910301258s60e80651k199173a0fae44858-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AEB4394.7030408@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910301258s60e80651k199173a0fae44858@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280910301316h7c659f3es20da90a4c68e8375@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/30 Dave Cramer : > Well pipers spend a whole lot of time doing exactly this, tuning their > drones ;) Not being a fan of the bagpipes I've been trying to keep out of this, but a temptation threshold was just passed ... Don't you mean "droning their tunes?" I'm Scottish, so don't place the race card. :-) So one day a man comes rushing into a small Scottish town, and all out of breath he runs up to the police man saying "Officer, officer, there's a man on the hill strangling a small plaid cow!" -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 20:22:00 2009 From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:22:00 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <4AEB46CB.2010204-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AEB4394.7030408@the-wire.com> <4AEB46CB.2010204@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4AEB4AE8.60206@the-wire.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Mel Wilson wrote: >> The thing needs an ATmega128. The -48, -168 etc. don't have enough >> timer output compares to do it nicely. > > What about a 1280? The Arduino Mega uses one, and is available at > Creatron just at College and Spadina. > http://creatroninc.com/product.php?ProductID=62 Yikes! That's a big chip. Even the 1281 will do -- what I need are 4 independent 16-bit output compares, one for each pitch. The full 1280 has -- what -- 12? I guess I should check and see how much control Arduino-C gives over all this stuff. Mel. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 20:24:32 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:24:32 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <1f13df280910301316h7c659f3es20da90a4c68e8375-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AEB4394.7030408@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910301258s60e80651k199173a0fae44858@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280910301316h7c659f3es20da90a4c68e8375@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AEB4B80.20903@rogers.com> Giles Orr wrote: > 2009/10/30 Dave Cramer: > >> Well pipers spend a whole lot of time doing exactly this, tuning their >> drones ;) >> > Not being a fan of the bagpipes I've been trying to keep out of this, > but a temptation threshold was just passed ... Don't you mean > "droning their tunes?" > > I'm Scottish, so don't place the race card. :-) > > So one day a man comes rushing into a small Scottish town, and all out > of breath he runs up to the police man saying "Officer, officer, > there's a man on the hill strangling a small plaid cow!" > > I always thought bagpipes were played by stuffing the bag full of cats and then squeezing the heck out of them. ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 21:25:44 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:25:44 -0500 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <4AEB4B80.20903-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AEB4394.7030408@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910301258s60e80651k199173a0fae44858@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280910301316h7c659f3es20da90a4c68e8375@mail.gmail.com> <4AEB4B80.20903@rogers.com> Message-ID: It is said of the lone piper playing by the loch that the sound improves greatly with as you move away. It is also said that those in London consider themselves almost the perfect listening distance... On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:24 PM, James Knott wrote: > Giles Orr wrote: >> >> 2009/10/30 Dave Cramer: >> >>> >>> Well pipers spend a whole lot of time doing exactly this, tuning their >>> drones ;) >>> >> >> Not being a fan of the bagpipes I've been trying to keep out of this, >> but a temptation threshold was just passed ... ?Don't you mean >> "droning their tunes?" >> >> I'm Scottish, so don't place the race card. ?:-) >> >> So one day a man comes rushing into a small Scottish town, and all out >> of breath he runs up to the police man saying "Officer, officer, >> there's a man on the hill strangling a small plaid cow!" >> >> > > I always thought bagpipes were played by stuffing the bag full of cats and > then squeezing the heck out of them. ?;-) > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Oct 30 22:30:40 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 22:30:40 +0000 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <491f66a50910301258s60e80651k199173a0fae44858-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AEB4394.7030408@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910301258s60e80651k199173a0fae44858@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091030223040.GH29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 03:58:13PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Mel Wilson wrote: > > > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 03:13:24PM -0400, Mel Wilson wrote: > >> > > > > If you lose MIDI and do the sound yourself, I'd think start with 3 > >>> fixed-pitch square waves for the drones and a tuned wave for the chanter, > >>> followed by the rudiments of a low-pass filter. It might fool a few people. > >>> > >> > >> The fixed pitch being two at about an A (and octave below the keynote > >> of the chanter) and the other one being an octave below that. A being > >> about 480Hz in this case, not 440. > >> > > > > Really! Just short of a tone sharp. I can change the numbers for that. A > > MIDI solution can do it too, by manipulating the Fine Tuning parameter for > > its channel. > > > > The square waves so far are almost-but-not-quite-entirely-unlike pipes. > > They will only fool people who want to be fooled, but I haven't done much > > about a high-cut filter yet. I tried to enrich the sound by detuning the > > two high drone sounds by 1/8 semitone each way, but got an ugly beat at > > about 3/second. Probably needs more subtlety, maybe an LFSR to shake up the > > detuning in a less repetitious way. > > > > The thing needs an ATmega128. The -48, -168 etc. don't have enough timer > > output compares to do it nicely. > > > > Well pipers spend a whole lot of time doing exactly this, tuning their > drones ;) Of course for midi there is the fun that the scale on pipes is nothing like the equal tempered that the midi notes expect. You will have to use a pitch bend on almost every note as well. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 31 01:41:39 2009 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gentoo performance benchmarked Message-ID: <3d35b9985d131853b801a56704ba67b5.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> I know there was a fairly long thread about Gentoo a week or so ago. I came across this link (http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7574/1) and thought it would make an interesting follow up. Linux Magazine has benchmarked three different GCC optimizations on Gentoo and compared the results with Ubuntu. The conclusion... "Gentoo did out-perform Ubuntu in almost every test, and sometimes by a fair margin. It does appear that optimizing for a specific CPU can yield a decent performance increase...The question is whether the amount of time it takes is worth the benefit, and that?s a personal choice." I've been using Gentoo for several years now. I was initially drawn to it because I thought it would outperform other distributions but for what I use it for the optimizations make little, probably not even noticeable, differences but I stuck with Gentoo because I like Portage (The package management system). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 31 02:22:30 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 22:22:30 -0400 Subject: DHCPd setup trouble Message-ID: <4AEB9F66.9020706@alteeve.com> Hi all, I'm trying to do something that should be dead simple, and am managing to fail miserably. I've got a CentOS 5.3 machine and I want to set up a dhcpd daemon. However, it fails to start and I can't seem to find where or if it is logging. I've added to the following to '/etc/syslog.conf' and reloaded the syslog daemon as the dhcpd.conf man page suggests: local7.debug /var/log/dhcpd.log Nothing works though. When I try to start the dhcpd daemon it simply prints "failed". I've currently stripped my config down to the bare bones: subnet 192.168.10.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 { option routers 192.168.1.1; option subnet-mask 255.255.255.0; range 192.168.1.100 192.168.1.110; } I don't know how to make it any simpler than that and it still won't start... Am I missing something simple? Thanks! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 31 02:26:25 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 22:26:25 -0400 Subject: DHCPd setup trouble In-Reply-To: <4AEB9F66.9020706-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4AEB9F66.9020706@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4AEBA051.9060605@alteeve.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm trying to do something that should be dead simple, and am managing > to fail miserably. > > I've got a CentOS 5.3 machine and I want to set up a dhcpd daemon. > However, it fails to start and I can't seem to find where or if it is > logging. I've added to the following to '/etc/syslog.conf' and reloaded > the syslog daemon as the dhcpd.conf man page suggests: > > local7.debug /var/log/dhcpd.log > > Nothing works though. When I try to start the dhcpd daemon it simply > prints "failed". I've currently stripped my config down to the bare bones: > > subnet 192.168.10.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 { > option routers 192.168.1.1; > option subnet-mask 255.255.255.0; > range 192.168.1.100 192.168.1.110; > } > > I don't know how to make it any simpler than that and it still won't > start... Am I missing something simple? > > Thanks! > > Madi Well, I figured out the error... After sending this I started reading the init.d dhcpd file and saw the 'configtest' option. Typo in the address. However, I am still wondering why the failure isn't logging anywhere. Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 31 06:22:01 2009 From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 02:22:01 -0400 Subject: Gentoo performance benchmarked In-Reply-To: <3d35b9985d131853b801a56704ba67b5.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org> References: <3d35b9985d131853b801a56704ba67b5.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Message-ID: <4AEBD789.6020009@gmail.com> Jason Carson wrote: > I know there was a fairly long thread about Gentoo a week or so ago. I > came across this link (http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7574/1) and thought it > would make an interesting follow up. Linux Magazine has benchmarked three > different GCC optimizations on Gentoo and compared the results with > Ubuntu. The conclusion... > > "Gentoo did out-perform Ubuntu in almost every test, and sometimes by a > fair margin. It does appear that optimizing for a specific CPU can yield a > decent performance increase...The question is whether the amount of time > it takes is worth the benefit, and that?s a personal choice." I gave up on Slackware Linux because I didn't want to tinker around with my Linux box, I want to use my Linux box as a tool to get other things done. I would think many more are in this camp. I perceive Gentoo far more of an annoyance than Slackware, but I might be wrong. I would also think far more people care about easy of use Vs customized performance boost. Personally I love Ubuntu and Debian because it makes my Linux life simple and easy. There have been a few things I've built from source, but for the most part I don't usually need to build from source. If you start thinking in terms of cost/value, and what your time is really worth, then the choice is obvious, go with Ubuntu or Debain. > > I've been using Gentoo for several years now. I was initially drawn to it > because I thought it would outperform other distributions but for what I > use it for the optimizations make little, probably not even noticeable, > differences but I stuck with Gentoo because I like Portage (The package > management system). > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Kind Regards, Rajinder Yadav http://DevMentor.org Do Good! - Share Freely, Enrich and Empower people to Transform their lives. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 31 13:00:43 2009 From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:00:43 -0400 Subject: USB key == USB hard drive??? In-Reply-To: <20091030200216.GG29304-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <20091030061403.GA5348@waltdnes.org> <20091030192955.GA10835@gondolin.home.yipyip.ca> <20091030200216.GG29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20091031130043.GA9510@waltdnes.org> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 08:02:16PM +0000, Lennart Sorensen wrote > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 03:29:55PM -0400, Andrej Marjan wrote: > > > > They're all USB Mass Storage devices. See > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_mass-storage_device_class > > > > Does the Acer actually have different boot options for "usb key" and > > "usb hard drive"? I wonder what the difference is supposed to be. > > Partitioned versus non partitioned probably. I don't know, but I hope to save people some banging of heads against brick walls by pointing out what happened to me. -- Walter Dnes -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 31 14:06:12 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:06:12 -0400 Subject: pic/midi programming In-Reply-To: <20091030223040.GH29304-FLMGYpZoEPUVyA88d6xpokBVGOaHBpLCRSdOKOjytBY@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50910290958p34f59478n2e0495198567acd3@mail.gmail.com> <4AE9E954.6060502@the-wire.com> <20091030150704.GD29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4AEB4394.7030408@the-wire.com> <491f66a50910301258s60e80651k199173a0fae44858@mail.gmail.com> <20091030223040.GH29304@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <491f66a50910310706j71a57231nbb7de8734f89957b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 03:58:13PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Mel Wilson > wrote: > > > > > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > > >> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 03:13:24PM -0400, Mel Wilson wrote: > > >> > > > > > > If you lose MIDI and do the sound yourself, I'd think start with 3 > > >>> fixed-pitch square waves for the drones and a tuned wave for the > chanter, > > >>> followed by the rudiments of a low-pass filter. It might fool a few > people. > > >>> > > >> > > >> The fixed pitch being two at about an A (and octave below the keynote > > >> of the chanter) and the other one being an octave below that. A > being > > >> about 480Hz in this case, not 440. > > >> > > > > > > Really! Just short of a tone sharp. I can change the numbers for > that. A > > > MIDI solution can do it too, by manipulating the Fine Tuning parameter > for > > > its channel. > > > > > > The square waves so far are almost-but-not-quite-entirely-unlike pipes. > > > They will only fool people who want to be fooled, but I haven't done > much > > > about a high-cut filter yet. I tried to enrich the sound by detuning > the > > > two high drone sounds by 1/8 semitone each way, but got an ugly beat at > > > about 3/second. Probably needs more subtlety, maybe an LFSR to shake > up the > > > detuning in a less repetitious way. > > > > > > The thing needs an ATmega128. The -48, -168 etc. don't have enough > timer > > > output compares to do it nicely. > > > > > > > Well pipers spend a whole lot of time doing exactly this, tuning their > > drones ;) > > Of course for midi there is the fun that the scale on pipes is nothing > like the equal tempered that the midi notes expect. You will have to > use a pitch bend on almost every note as well. > > Here's some information that may be of help. These files are from bagpipe writer. They have the midi notes http://cityofoaks.home.netcom.com/tunes/AmazingGrace.bww > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 31 16:45:04 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 12:45:04 -0400 Subject: Gentoo performance benchmarked In-Reply-To: <4AEBD789.6020009-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3d35b9985d131853b801a56704ba67b5.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> <4AEBD789.6020009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280910310945u663333fbkc03bb8b8fa7738ad@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/31 Rajinder Yadav : > Jason Carson wrote: >> "Gentoo did out-perform Ubuntu in almost every test, and sometimes by a >> fair margin. It does appear that optimizing for a specific CPU can yield a >> decent performance increase...The question is whether the amount of time >> it takes is worth the benefit, and that?s a personal choice." > > I gave up on Slackware Linux because I didn't want to tinker around with my > Linux box, I want to use my Linux box as a tool to get other things done. I > would think many more are in this camp. I perceive Gentoo far more of an > annoyance than Slackware, but I might be wrong. I would also think far more > people care about easy of use Vs customized performance boost. > > Personally I love Ubuntu and Debian because it makes my Linux life simple > and easy. There have been a few things I've built from source, but for the > most part I don't usually need to build from source. > > If you start thinking in terms of cost/value, and what your time is really > worth, then the choice is obvious, go with Ubuntu or Debain. I'm in the same "camp" as you, ie. I think Debian is easiest to work with and constitutes the best use of my time - but it's worth remembering that we're all on this mailing list because we adhere to a different set of values than the majority of the population. Most of the world (either by choice or inertia) think that Windows is the answer when you look at the cost/value equation. So Linux users are outliers on the graph of computer users. And Gentoo users are outliers on the graph of Linux users. But what constitutes "cost" and what constitutes "value" is actually a very personal question: I've always had a fascination and respect for Gentoo, and for Jason it offers a lot of value. For me, patches and upgrades take too long on Gentoo, but for him it's an acceptable cost - in part because he gets Portage, arguably one of the best package management systems available for Linux. (Apologies to Jason for possibly putting words in his mouth.) It's the right answer for him: and personally, I'm glad to have people using a wide variety of distros on this list. >> I've been using Gentoo for several years now. I was initially drawn to it >> because I thought it would outperform other distributions but for what I >> use it for the optimizations make little, probably not even noticeable, >> differences but I stuck with Gentoo because I like Portage (The package >> management system). -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org Sat Oct 31 21:30:58 2009 From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 17:30:58 -0400 Subject: Gentoo performance benchmarked In-Reply-To: <1f13df280910310945u663333fbkc03bb8b8fa7738ad-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3d35b9985d131853b801a56704ba67b5.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> <4AEBD789.6020009@gmail.com> <1f13df280910310945u663333fbkc03bb8b8fa7738ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Giles Orr wrote: > 2009/10/31 Rajinder Yadav : >> Jason Carson wrote: >>> "Gentoo did out-perform Ubuntu in almost every test, and sometimes by a >>> fair margin. It does appear that optimizing for a specific CPU can yield a >>> decent performance increase...The question is whether the amount of time >>> it takes is worth the benefit, and that?s a personal choice." >> >> I gave up on Slackware Linux because I didn't want to tinker around with my >> Linux box, I want to use my Linux box as a tool to get other things done. I >> would think many more are in this camp. I perceive Gentoo far more of an >> annoyance than Slackware, but I might be wrong. I would also think far more >> people care about easy of use Vs customized performance boost. >> >> Personally I love Ubuntu and Debian because it makes my Linux life simple >> and easy. There have been a few things I've built from source, but for the >> most part I don't usually need to build from source. >> >> If you start thinking in terms of cost/value, and what your time is really >> worth, then the choice is obvious, go with Ubuntu or Debain. > > I'm in the same "camp" as you, ie. I think Debian is easiest to work > with and constitutes the best use of my time - but it's worth > remembering that we're all on this mailing list because we adhere to a > different set of values than the majority of the population. ?Most of > the world (either by choice or inertia) think that Windows is the > answer when you look at the cost/value equation. ?So Linux users are > outliers on the graph of computer users. ?And Gentoo users are > outliers on the graph of Linux users. ?But what constitutes "cost" and > what constitutes "value" is actually a very personal question: I've > always had a fascination and respect for Gentoo, and for Jason it > offers a lot of value. ?For me, patches and upgrades take too long on > Gentoo, but for him it's an acceptable cost - in part because he gets > Portage, arguably one of the best package management systems available > for Linux. ?(Apologies to Jason for possibly putting words in his > mouth.) ?It's the right answer for him: and personally, I'm glad to > have people using a wide variety of distros on this list. > >>> I've been using Gentoo for several years now. I was initially drawn to it >>> because I thought it would outperform other distributions but for what I >>> use it for the optimizations make little, probably not even noticeable, >>> differences but I stuck with Gentoo because I like Portage (The package >>> management system). > I hate to admit it, but for me the changes in my priorities have come with age. I used to enjoy spending many hours putting together a highly personalized system, configuring everything for maximum speed. After a while, though, I found that I was spending more time putting things together than I was actually using them, and with two children and more responsibilities, well, you know. Now I use Debian, and I'm mostly happy with whatever the Gnome desktop wants to do. Someone once told me that Debian is for 'old farts'. I think I'm comfortable with that now ;) -- TBM -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists