From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 00:27:34 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:27:34 -0400
Subject: Semi OT: communication between telco networks
Message-ID: <54E24FC3-7AF1-4FA1-A123-F174602E2AB9@gmail.com>

Not Linux related, but interesting in a technical sense.

I've often heard of ISPs coming to an impasse with pairing agreements,  
and ceasing to route traffic for each other (resulting in "dead zones"  
if IPs the clients can't connect to).

Has anyone ever heard of routing issues with phones. President's  
choice (and many others) use Bell for calls. My Pc card gives a "this  
call cannot be completed as dialled" when calling a 778-890-xxxx (Fido/ 
Prince George) area phone. I talk to an operator, and from her  
landline she gets the same message.

I *know* the number is correct, one is my GF's (calling her while in  
Toronto to finish my house sale, I moved) and one if mine.

This isn't (a least not yet) a complaint about Bell/Fido/PC, but  
rather a question of whether such things can or often do happen in  
phone-land. Maybe they use VOIP and it doesn't recognize that  
extension, or some other weirdness?

Anyone know a company that uses Telus/Rogers/other for phone cards, or  
someone other than PC that has a cheapie $5 Bell-network card for  
testing.

PC is supposed to email me when the learned more. Ironically, they  
likely can't call my cell if their operators have the same issues  
calling 777 :-)

(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 00:33:10 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:33:10 -0400
Subject: How about creating / developing FOSS? Re: what is the  situation wrt. ideas created by employees while employed ? who owns them ?
In-Reply-To: <loom.20090630T215904-70-eS7Uydv5nfjZ+VzJOa5vwg@public.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20090629T192109-480@post.gmane.org> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0906301115000.4705@imac2006.local> <d6d6637f0906300905x75856269t6d4f884689e4b97b@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0906301206440.4705@imac2006.local> <d6d6637f0906300927r54d862beo6586ea6d3ba9683b@mail.gmail.com> <loom.20090630T183522-761@post.gmane.org> <20090630170536.9e0a064b.tleslie@tcn.net> <loom.20090630T215904-70@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <6057C1D9-2E14-46AA-9EC0-77B805FA1E5B@gmail.com>

Anyone know where Canada/Ontario law stands on the "we own stuff you  
invent up to 1 year *AFTER* employment" clauses? When I moved here  
from BC, they hit me with that after I arrived. Luckily I don't code  
web for hire and my C++ is currenly in the "re-learning stuff I used  
to know and others" stage for at least the next year anyhow



(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 30-Jun-09, at 5:59 PM, Peter <plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> ted leslie <tleslie at ...> writes:
>> I think its infinitely complicated, especially since,
>> a employer and even a knowledgeable lawyer can put in
>> "employer owns all intellectual property created by employees at  
>> any time
> during their period of
>> employment" rule,
>> but can it hold up in court? of course not, its too broad a  
>> statement and
> can't be enforced in any way.
>
> The reason I am asking all this is among others the fact that I  
> *know* that
> there are places where the shackle rule is enforced by default (in  
> certain US
> states, it is implied even if it is not mentioned on the contract),  
> whereas
> elsewhere (Europe), the employer NEVER EVER owns anything the  
> employee makes
> outside his work hours (as long as it is unrelated to the work he  
> does), and any
> such provision would be unenforceable and illegal. So I was trying  
> to understand
> where the 51st star [*] is standing on this ?
>
> Peter
>
> [*] evil pun on Canada by an European who is just visiting for now,  
> but looking
> hard at other options while he is at it - the reason for the pun is  
> that CBC
> seems to show more of Obama than of Harper somehow - maybe this is  
> subjective, I
> don't watch it that much ... anyways apologies for any possible  
> insult, it was
> not meant to be such. Of course the 51st is to mean in addition to  
> the 50
> already on the US flag, i.e. the star that decided to stay off the  
> flag, yet
> seems to belong there in many ways <duck & run away>
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 00:41:22 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:41:22 -0400
Subject: Question on OT topics in general
Message-ID: <0C994BE8-4B01-474D-93ED-C7D4CA868D6B@gmail.com>

Yes, I'm bored in a hotel room so this is post #3 in a row on varying  
topics.

The question: where do we stand or draw the line on starting OT (non  
Linux) threads. Obviously as geeks/intellectuals/etc we have somewhat  
common interests in technical issues, related legal issues, or even  
stuff like recommending (or asking about) ISP's, sales of tech stuff,  
etc.

I don't often notice angry retorts to such things, so I'm guessing  
that such topics are acceptable on a "slow list day"

How about lists other than TLUG for such things in TO/Canada/anywhere?

Is there a "technical/intellectual persons" list?


(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)
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From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 01:28:28 2009
From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:28:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
Message-ID: <287115.87502.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Tue, 6/30/09, Jamon Camisso <jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> From: Jamon Camisso <jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org>
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Received: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 11:55 AM
> Giles Orr wrote:
> > 2009/6/29 E K <ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>:
> >>> On 29-Jun-09, at 7:27 PM, Peter <plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> acanc seems to have a good deal for ADSL
> on dry pair
> >>> (or am I reading it wrong).
> >>>> I am curious if anyone is using them ?
> >> Yes, they got a good deal. But you also need a
> good deal of patience.
> >>
> >> EK
> > 
> > Could you elaborate on this?? Have you used their
> specific service?
> > Another dry pair service?? What were the
> problems?
> > 
> > For those interested:
> > 
> > http://acanac.ca/NakedDSL.htm
> > 
> > Cost is stated as "$8 more" - presumably above and
> beyond regular DSL
> > service, and I'd guess you'd have to get the more
> expensive ADSL at
> > $30 per month.? So yes, a good deal.? Enough
> to make me think about
> > getting off my land line and actually getting a cell
> for the first
> > time in years.? But I'm spoiled by teksavvy (when
> not disrupted by
> > Bell).
> > 
> > I'm also interested in Acanac's statement (http://acanac.ca/DSL.html):
> > 
> > "No Blocked Ports or Traffic Shapping" [sic]
> > 
> > They're still using Bell's lines, and Bell still does
> traffic shaping,
> > right?? They can't prevent that, which means any
> claim of "no traffic
> > shaping" is a bit disingenuous.? If your upstream
> provider does it,
> > just because you don't doesn't mean it's not
> happening.
> > 
> > Or maybe they're telling the truth: since no one knows
> what "shapping"
> > is they can say with some surety that they're not
> doing it.
> > 
> 
> Teksavvy just rolled out single and multilink mlppp, wonder
> if acanac 
> offer it now too? (mlppp works around Bell's shaping).
> 
> Jamon

It took them about a month to give me the 5Mpbs bandwidth they promised. I was connected at 3Mbps and getting 2.4Mbps for a month.

EK



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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 01:38:11 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:38:11 -0400
Subject: Question on OT topics in general
In-Reply-To: <0C994BE8-4B01-474D-93ED-C7D4CA868D6B-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <0C994BE8-4B01-474D-93ED-C7D4CA868D6B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4ABE03.5010800@alteeve.com>

Aviss,Tyler wrote:
> Yes, I'm bored in a hotel room so this is post #3 in a row on varying 
> topics.
> 
> The question: where do we stand or draw the line on starting OT (non 
> Linux) threads. Obviously as geeks/intellectuals/etc we have somewhat 
> common interests in technical issues, related legal issues, or even 
> stuff like recommending (or asking about) ISP's, sales of tech stuff, etc.
> 
> I don't often notice angry retorts to such things, so I'm guessing that 
> such topics are acceptable on a "slow list day"
> 
> How about lists other than TLUG for such things in TO/Canada/anywhere?
> 
> Is there a "technical/intellectual persons" list?

*Personally*, I think that if a topic is suitably marked as 'OT: ' then 
it's fine. TLUG is enough of a community/family/what-have-you that, I 
think, there is plenty of room for non-linux idea sharing.

If we standardized on the already-kinda-standard 'OT:' then people not 
interested in off-topic threads could easily filter them the Trash.

:)

The Chatty Madi
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 06:44:42 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 02:44:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Semi OT: communication between telco networks
In-Reply-To: <54E24FC3-7AF1-4FA1-A123-F174602E2AB9-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <54E24FC3-7AF1-4FA1-A123-F174602E2AB9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907010226480.6362@castor.opentrend.net>

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, Aviss,Tyler wrote:

> I've often heard of ISPs coming to an impasse with pairing agreements, and 
> ceasing to route traffic for each other (resulting in "dead zones" if IPs the 
> clients can't connect to).

A dead zone would constitute a misconfiguration or a transient failure.

BGP will find a 'shortest path' of Autonomous Systems between any two 
networks on the Internet.

IXPs are highly desirable but not essential.

> This isn't (a least not yet) a complaint about Bell/Fido/PC, but rather a 
> question of whether such things can or often do happen in phone-land. Maybe

The circuit switched global phone system continues to have a level of 
reliability the Internet can only dream of.

> they use VOIP and it doesn't recognize that extension, or some other 
> weirdness?

Quite a few times I've been unable to reach certain phone numbers using 
certain long distance carriers (or been unable to reach the long distance 
carriers from the local phone company) but these problems never occur with 
the old time Telcos (which suck in other ways).

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 06:52:18 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 02:52:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Question on OT topics in general
In-Reply-To: <0C994BE8-4B01-474D-93ED-C7D4CA868D6B-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <0C994BE8-4B01-474D-93ED-C7D4CA868D6B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907010245160.6362@castor.opentrend.net>

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, Aviss,Tyler wrote:

> The question: where do we stand or draw the line on starting OT (non Linux) 
> threads. Obviously as geeks/intellectuals/etc we have somewhat common

I've never had a problem woth OT posts, especially if marked as such. 
Some of the most interesting threads I've seen are OT :)

> I don't often notice angry retorts to such things, so I'm guessing that such 
> topics are acceptable on a "slow list day"

They are also easy to ignore.

> How about lists other than TLUG for such things in TO/Canada/anywhere?
>
> Is there a "technical/intellectual persons" list?

There's a list for just about any Internet/computer related topic you 
could imagine.  Serious technical discussions continue to be dominated by 
mailing lists, rather than blogs or whatever.

All of these lists see a steady stream of OT posts in my experience.  Some 
lists are 'summary' lists only - some voluntary, some enforced by 
moderation.  Summary lists normally don't see OT posts as a result of 
their nature.

Outside computing my sense is that mailing lists have declined in 
popularity in favour of other forms of communication.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
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From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 07:40:11 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 03:40:11 -0400
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
Message-ID: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com>


I've got a notebook here with built in Broadcom wireless, and before I mess
this up too much I though I would ask for some tips in getting this working.

I did lspci and got the model like so:

Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4328 802.11a/b/g/n (rev 03)

I found this article:

http://wiki.debian.org/bcm43xx

which seemed to indicate that this was going to be a pretty trivial process.
Installing the b43-fwcutter and wireless-tools went off without error and the
firmware was extracted, but so far I've got no wireless.

I followed the suggested troubleshooting steps, excluding manual installation
of the firmware, no answers.

Help?

-- 
J
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From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 07:56:20 2009
From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 03:56:20 -0400
Subject: Question on OT topics in general
In-Reply-To: <0C994BE8-4B01-474D-93ED-C7D4CA868D6B-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <0C994BE8-4B01-474D-93ED-C7D4CA868D6B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4B16A4.30600@ualberta.ca>

Aviss,Tyler wrote:
> Yes, I'm bored in a hotel room so this is post #3 in a row on varying 
> topics.
> 
> The question: where do we stand or draw the line on starting OT (non 
> Linux) threads. Obviously as geeks/intellectuals/etc we have somewhat 
> common interests in technical issues, related legal issues, or even 
> stuff like recommending (or asking about) ISP's, sales of tech stuff, etc.
> 
> I don't often notice angry retorts to such things, so I'm guessing that 
> such topics are acceptable on a "slow list day"

I don't know about everyone but I use the subject line more than the 
"OT" prefix to determine whether I want to read a thread/discussion and 
be a part of it. Usually it's quite easy to tell if a thread is 
off-topic by using a descriptive subject, and changing it when 
appropriate. Most people who post to this list use "OT" properly, more 
so than other LUG lists I've been on in the past.

Sometimes, a thread turns into a rant/flamewar/"hot topic". Sometimes 
the original subject line sometimes becomes less relevant. In these 
cases, it would be nice if someone would modify the subject line.

> How about lists other than TLUG for such things in TO/Canada/anywhere?
> 
> Is there a "technical/intellectual persons" list?
> 

School programs might be your best bet. ;-)

While I do have an interest in Linux, I am also interested in the 
evolution of software, open-source software in particular. Since Linux 
is the biggest example of success in this category, people with 
interests similar to mine tend to reside here. Similarly for political 
and legal issues, inspired by Linux and other major open source projects.

Based on the content of Linux magazines these days, the trends are the 
same.. some have noted that this has lead to less technical talk about 
the OS (eg. kernel implementation, drivers, etc.). I wish I knew more 
about that stuff; I have the programming experience, just not the time 
to delve into learning all the gritty details unless I have a solid 
contribution to make.

Marc
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 08:21:40 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 04:21:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: why might debian install require constant pressing of ENTER?
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost>


  when installing debian 5.01 on one of my gateway mx7120 laptops,
almost invariably, the install runs fine partway through all the SW
install, then slows to a crawl for each package -- a situation i can
rectify by simply holding down the ENTER key.

  i'm not doing anything unusual, and i'm just starting another test
install thusly:

  - regular (non-graphical) install
  - on the net
  - LVM-based, full HD
  - separate /home, /usr, /tmp, /tmp partitions
  - filesystems created just fine
  - base system currently unpacking and installing
  - telling install that i have no more DVDs to insert, DVD 1
    is all i think i need

  at this point, it may have started -- apt is claiming to be
"scanning the mirror" but there is no net or DVD activity and it's
been sitting there for over a minute.  press ENTER and ... activity!
we've moved on to "configuring apt/please wait" and ... no motion
again.  press ENTER and ... we're off again.

  what the crap is going on?  this is completely reproducible.  what
is the debian install doing that requires user input to keep it moving
forward?  should i have fed the install all 5 DVDs early on?  and this
has happened on more than one of that model of laptop so i'm convinced
it's not a single-system HW problem.  thoughts?


rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 08:25:35 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 04:25:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010423320.6666@localhost>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:

> I've got a notebook here with built in Broadcom wireless, and before
> I mess this up too much I though I would ask for some tips in
> getting this working.
>
> I did lspci and got the model like so:
>
> Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4328 802.11a/b/g/n (rev
> 03)
>
> I found this article:
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/bcm43xx
>
> which seemed to indicate that this was going to be a pretty trivial
> process. Installing the b43-fwcutter and wireless-tools went off
> without error and the firmware was extracted, but so far I've got no
> wireless.
>
> I followed the suggested troubleshooting steps, excluding manual
> installation of the firmware, no answers.
>
> Help?

  amusingly, i went thru almost exactly that last night, with a
BCM4318-equipped laptop, and i followed the directions on that page.
it didn't seem to make a difference and then, suddenly, a couple
minutes later, i had wireless.  not sure what i did to have it kick in
but it appeared to work.  i'll be testing again shortly if this
$%*^&%(*&$%(*&) install ever finishes.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 09:38:59 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 05:38:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:

> I've got a notebook here with built in Broadcom wireless, and before
> I mess this up too much I though I would ask for some tips in
> getting this working.
>
> I did lspci and got the model like so:
>
> Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4328 802.11a/b/g/n (rev 03)
>
> I found this article:
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/bcm43xx
>
> which seemed to indicate that this was going to be a pretty trivial
> process. Installing the b43-fwcutter and wireless-tools went off
> without error and the firmware was extracted, but so far I've got no
> wireless.
>
> I followed the suggested troubleshooting steps, excluding manual
> installation of the firmware, no answers.

  i just followed the same page for a BCM4318 wireless chip on a
laptop running debian 5.01 and it worked fine.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 11:34:49 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:34:49 +0400
Subject: selinux strangeness
Message-ID: <4A4B49D9.9050601@gmail.com>

This time I am not breaking threads? ;)

This is more of out of curiosity, not so much a problem. But it would be 
nice to be able to play doom.

Centos 5.3 is here, which is supposed to be like RedHat Enterprise of 
the same version.

I have xdosemu installed, an emulation of DOS. To play doom.

Sometime, not always, when I try to start xdosemu, I get this message:

/usr/bin/xdosemu: relocation error: /usr/lib/dosemu/libplugin_X.so: 
symbol getenv, version GLIBC_2.0 not defined in file libc.so.6 with link 
time reference

My intuition told me rightly that this is a message from selinux. So, I 
go to menu
System-> Administration -> Security Level and Firewall. I choose as root 
SELinux tab, and disable again Selinux. Sometime that does help. 
Sometime it does not...


Any comments?
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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 11:47:36 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:47:36 +0400
Subject: selinux strangeness
In-Reply-To: <4A4B49D9.9050601-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4B49D9.9050601@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4B4CD8.3050002@gmail.com>

After:

yum install compat-glibc

things seem to work. For how long?

zb.

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> This time I am not breaking threads? ;)
>
> This is more of out of curiosity, not so much a problem. But it would 
> be nice to be able to play doom.
>
> Centos 5.3 is here, which is supposed to be like RedHat Enterprise of 
> the same version.
>
> I have xdosemu installed, an emulation of DOS. To play doom.
>
> Sometime, not always, when I try to start xdosemu, I get this message:
>
> /usr/bin/xdosemu: relocation error: /usr/lib/dosemu/libplugin_X.so: 
> symbol getenv, version GLIBC_2.0 not defined in file libc.so.6 with 
> link time reference
>
> My intuition told me rightly that this is a message from selinux. So, 
> I go to menu
> System-> Administration -> Security Level and Firewall. I choose as 
> root SELinux tab, and disable again Selinux. Sometime that does help. 
> Sometime it does not...
>
>
> Any comments?
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 11:52:21 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:52:21 +0400
Subject: selinux strangeness
In-Reply-To: <4A4B4CD8.3050002-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4B49D9.9050601@gmail.com> <4A4B4CD8.3050002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4B4DF5.5080005@gmail.com>

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> After:
>
> yum install compat-glibc
>
> things seem to work. For how long?
>

Exactly! For how long?

Right after yum install compat-glibc I was able to use xdosemu. I turned 
terminal window off. After I send this message, I try again and got 
again that cited error message! Insane!

zb.

> zb.
>
> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>> This time I am not breaking threads? ;)
>>
>> This is more of out of curiosity, not so much a problem. But it would 
>> be nice to be able to play doom.
>>
>> Centos 5.3 is here, which is supposed to be like RedHat Enterprise of 
>> the same version.
>>
>> I have xdosemu installed, an emulation of DOS. To play doom.
>>
>> Sometime, not always, when I try to start xdosemu, I get this message:
>>
>> /usr/bin/xdosemu: relocation error: /usr/lib/dosemu/libplugin_X.so: 
>> symbol getenv, version GLIBC_2.0 not defined in file libc.so.6 with 
>> link time reference
>>
>> My intuition told me rightly that this is a message from selinux. So, 
>> I go to menu
>> System-> Administration -> Security Level and Firewall. I choose as 
>> root SELinux tab, and disable again Selinux. Sometime that does help. 
>> Sometime it does not...
>>
>>
>> Any comments?
>> -- 
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>
>

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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 12:00:45 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:00:45 +0400
Subject: selinux strangeness
In-Reply-To: <4A4B4DF5.5080005-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4B49D9.9050601@gmail.com> <4A4B4CD8.3050002@gmail.com> <4A4B4DF5.5080005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4B4FED.8090208@gmail.com>

What a sort of insanity!

Now, from another terminal window I can issue xdosemu command. Where I 
could not just a moment ago. From another terminal window where I am 
root I get the same error message. I did run ldconfig and such things.

zb.

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>> After:
>>
>> yum install compat-glibc
>>
>> things seem to work. For how long?
>>
>
> Exactly! For how long?
>
> Right after yum install compat-glibc I was able to use xdosemu. I 
> turned terminal window off. After I send this message, I try again and 
> got again that cited error message! Insane!
>
> zb.
>
>> zb.
>>
>> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>>> This time I am not breaking threads? ;)
>>>
>>> This is more of out of curiosity, not so much a problem. But it 
>>> would be nice to be able to play doom.
>>>
>>> Centos 5.3 is here, which is supposed to be like RedHat Enterprise 
>>> of the same version.
>>>
>>> I have xdosemu installed, an emulation of DOS. To play doom.
>>>
>>> Sometime, not always, when I try to start xdosemu, I get this message:
>>>
>>> /usr/bin/xdosemu: relocation error: /usr/lib/dosemu/libplugin_X.so: 
>>> symbol getenv, version GLIBC_2.0 not defined in file libc.so.6 with 
>>> link time reference
>>>
>>> My intuition told me rightly that this is a message from selinux. 
>>> So, I go to menu
>>> System-> Administration -> Security Level and Firewall. I choose as 
>>> root SELinux tab, and disable again Selinux. Sometime that does 
>>> help. Sometime it does not...
>>>
>>>
>>> Any comments?
>>> -- 
>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 13:02:17 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:02:17 -0400
Subject: selinux strangeness
In-Reply-To: <4A4B49D9.9050601-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4B49D9.9050601@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4B5E59.90104@utoronto.ca>

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> This time I am not breaking threads? ;)
> 
> This is more of out of curiosity, not so much a problem. But it would be 
> nice to be able to play doom.
> 
> Centos 5.3 is here, which is supposed to be like RedHat Enterprise of 
> the same version.
> 
> I have xdosemu installed, an emulation of DOS. To play doom.
> 
> Sometime, not always, when I try to start xdosemu, I get this message:
> 
> /usr/bin/xdosemu: relocation error: /usr/lib/dosemu/libplugin_X.so: 
> symbol getenv, version GLIBC_2.0 not defined in file libc.so.6 with link 
> time reference
> 
> My intuition told me rightly that this is a message from selinux. So, I 
> go to menu
> System-> Administration -> Security Level and Firewall. I choose as root 
> SELinux tab, and disable again Selinux. Sometime that does help. 
> Sometime it does not...

LD_ASSUME_KERNEL will fix that.
Read http://people.redhat.com/drepper/assumekernel.html for more.

People tend to blame selinux for a lot of problems that they haven't 
encountered before, but generally, if your problem is selinux related, 
there will be a message in /var/log/messages and /var/log/audit/audit.log.

selinux isn't the boogeyman (turn it back on), though I dislike working 
with it sometimes since the logged messages are rather verbose and yet 
still somewhat cryptic.

Jamon
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 14:08:21 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:08:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: why might debian install require constant pressing of
 ENTER?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011004310.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Robert P. J. Day <rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org>

|   when installing debian 5.01 on one of my gateway mx7120 laptops,
| almost invariably, the install runs fine partway through all the SW
| install, then slows to a crawl for each package -- a situation i can
| rectify by simply holding down the ENTER key.

Does it have to be ENTER?  Does SPACE work?  How about SHIFT?

I seem to vaguely remember there being occasions where my systems have
perked up when I hit the keyboard.  My thought was that there was a
lost interrupt and the next interrupt kind of got it going again.
Very fuzzy memory.

Consider playing with APIC-related kernel parameters if this is the case.
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 14:11:56 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:11:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: why might debian install require constant pressing of
 ENTER?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011004310.26820-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011004310.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011007340.3218@localhost>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

> > From: Robert P. J. Day <rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org>
>
> > when installing debian 5.01 on one of my gateway mx7120 laptops,
> > almost invariably, the install runs fine partway through all the
> > SW install, then slows to a crawl for each package -- a situation
> > i can rectify by simply holding down the ENTER key.
>
> Does it have to be ENTER?  Does SPACE work?  How about SHIFT?

  good question -- i didn't check.  this was with the non-graphical
install.  i recall, a while back, during a graphical install, i could
get the same effect by moving the mouse constantly.  after a while,
that lost its amusement value.

> I seem to vaguely remember there being occasions where my systems
> have perked up when I hit the keyboard.  My thought was that there
> was a lost interrupt and the next interrupt kind of got it going
> again. Very fuzzy memory.
>
> Consider playing with APIC-related kernel parameters if this is the
> case.

  i'll give that a shot.  i know others who have seen the same thing.
i can't believe this is a common problem since others would have been
complaining about it as well, so i'm guessing it's tied to the HW on
this system somehow.

rday

p.s.  i've seen this behaviour only during install.  once the system
is up and running, it seems fine.  and, yes, i have working BCM4318
wireless.  :-)

--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 14:42:06 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:42:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: why might debian install require constant pressing of
 ENTER?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011004310.26820-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011004310.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011018190.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>

| I seem to vaguely remember there being occasions where my systems have
| perked up when I hit the keyboard.

There is one case where this can be explained: when the system is
generating keys (eg. for IPSec or BIND or SSHD) it needs random
numbers.

/dev/random will only yield bytes if the system thinks that it has
enough "entropy"; otherwise, a read will hang until enough entropy has
accumulated.  One source of entropy is keystroke timing and another is
mouse events.

    "Any one who considers arithmetical methods of producing random
    digits is, of course, in a state of sin. For, as has been pointed
    out several times, there is no such thing as a random number --
    there are only methods to produce random numbers, and a strict
    arithmetic procedure of course is not such a method."

	John von Neumann

If the program needing random numbers uses /dev/urandom, no delay will
occur BUT the keys may be very weak.

PS: I was looking for that quote and came up with von Neumann's
wikiquote page.  I saw this quote for the first time and liked it:

    "You should call it entropy, for two reasons. In the first place
    your uncertainty function has been used in statistical mechanics
    under that name, so it already has a name. In the second place,
    and more important, no one really knows what entropy really is, so
    in a debate you will always have the advantage."

	Suggesting to Claude Shannon a name for his new uncertainty
	function, as quoted in Scientific American Vol. 225 , (1971),
	p. 180

They don't say which Number of Volume 225 that came from.  It is
Volume 3 (September), one of only two that I still have from 1971.
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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 14:40:24 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:40:24 +0400
Subject: selinux strangeness
In-Reply-To: <4A4B5E59.90104-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4B49D9.9050601@gmail.com> <4A4B5E59.90104@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <4A4B7558.3090005@gmail.com>

Jamon Camisso wrote:
> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>> This time I am not breaking threads? ;)
>>
>> This is more of out of curiosity, not so much a problem. But it would 
>> be nice to be able to play doom.
>>
>> Centos 5.3 is here, which is supposed to be like RedHat Enterprise of 
>> the same version.
>>
>> I have xdosemu installed, an emulation of DOS. To play doom.
>>
>> Sometime, not always, when I try to start xdosemu, I get this message:
>>
>> /usr/bin/xdosemu: relocation error: /usr/lib/dosemu/libplugin_X.so: 
>> symbol getenv, version GLIBC_2.0 not defined in file libc.so.6 with 
>> link time reference
>>
>> My intuition told me rightly that this is a message from selinux. So, 
>> I go to menu
>> System-> Administration -> Security Level and Firewall. I choose as 
>> root SELinux tab, and disable again Selinux. Sometime that does help. 
>> Sometime it does not...
>
> LD_ASSUME_KERNEL will fix that.
> Read http://people.redhat.com/drepper/assumekernel.html for more.
I did in the past something like that. Perhaps on another system. Dont 
assume however that I understand what I did or what you wrote...
I actually right now do not understand what you wrote... ;)

The situation is really crazy. Now, I find that when I issue "xdosemu" 
command from terminal window, it sometimes works. And.. sometimes it 
does not work, producing error message. This is a something entirely out 
of mind.

>
> People tend to blame selinux for a lot of problems that they haven't 
> encountered before, but generally, if your problem is selinux related, 
> there will be a message in /var/log/messages and 
> /var/log/audit/audit.log.

I know about these messages.
>
> selinux isn't the boogeyman (turn it back on), though I dislike 
> working with it sometimes since the logged messages are rather verbose 
> and yet still somewhat cryptic.
>
I disagree somewhat about all this selinux. If one can not understand 
security, than that is not security.

Besides, what a hell is this selinux for? Anyone around could really 
explain? I mean - I do probably know what for (and I doubt that the 
model used there is really useful commonly), but I want to hear from the 
list.

Regards,

zb.


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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 14:49:54 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:49:54 -0400
Subject: PHP
In-Reply-To: <5fce9a0806cbd1e69266457006384e4c.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org>
References: <64b8391116a18367e46f209dc0e16734.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
	 <20090630063355.GA7225@yam.witteman.ca>
	 <5aa434200906301159q2aeb6f9eh771f878f114cad51@mail.gmail.com>
	 <5fce9a0806cbd1e69266457006384e4c.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907010749r6504dd30s5c416c11ac03b64d@mail.gmail.com>

2009/6/30 Jason Carson <jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org>:
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:33 AM, William O'Higgins
>> Witteman<william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 01:28:00AM -0400, Jason Carson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Does anyone know the difference between "Programming PHP" and "Learning
>>>>PHP5". Both are published by O'reilly.
>>>
>>> Assuming that it is like any other "learning/programming" O'Reilly
>>> books, the Learning title is a beginner book that covers the basics, and
>>> the Programming book assumes you can already program, and just need to
>>> know how the language works, the pitfalls and the details. ?There is
>>> usually a much larger section explaining the common or included
>>> libraries as well. ?The Programming book will also be three times
>>> thicker, and a better value/reference than the Learning book.
>>> --
>>>
>>> yours,
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>
>> Seconding Mr. Witteman here. In the case of Programming Perl and
>> Learning Perl, it's exactly this way. Learning Perl is a beginner's
>> introduction. By contrast, well, "Programming Perl" is sometimes
>> called "The Perl Bible" for a reason.
>>
>> Personally, I'd go for "Programming PHP", but that depends on your own
>> background and whatnot.
>>
>> - Mike
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
> ok, great, thanks for info guys :-)

>From personal experience in dealing with both "Learning" and
"Programming" books in both Perl and Python ... do NOT buy the
"Programming" book if you are a beginner.  It's for intermediates and
I'm sure it's good, and it'd be a good reference: but honestly, the
"Learning" books are what you need and will take you a long way.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 15:03:42 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:03:42 -0400
Subject: why might debian install require constant pressing of
 ENTER?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost>
Message-ID: <20090701110342.2c926039@teksavvy.com>

Robert P. J. Day wrote: 

>   when installing debian 5.01 on one of my gateway mx7120 laptops,
> almost invariably, the install runs fine partway through all the SW
> install, then slows to a crawl for each package -- a situation i can
> rectify by simply holding down the ENTER key.

That's _nothing_. The notebook I was asking about below (broadcom wireless)
would not begin the install until I pressed in the power button at the 'booting
kernel' stage. Only way I figured that out was completelyl by accident when I
went to shut it down, thinking it had locked up, and my finger slipped.

-- 
J
--
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From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 15:31:06 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:31:06 -0400
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost>
Message-ID: <20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com>

Robert P. J. Day wrote: 

> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:
> 
> > I've got a notebook here with built in Broadcom wireless, and before
> > I mess this up too much I though I would ask for some tips in
> > getting this working.
> >
> > I did lspci and got the model like so:
> >
> > Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4328 802.11a/b/g/n (rev 03)
> >
> > I found this article:
> >
> > http://wiki.debian.org/bcm43xx
> >
> > which seemed to indicate that this was going to be a pretty trivial
> > process. Installing the b43-fwcutter and wireless-tools went off
> > without error and the firmware was extracted, but so far I've got no
> > wireless.
> >
> > I followed the suggested troubleshooting steps, excluding manual
> > installation of the firmware, no answers.  
> 
>   i just followed the same page for a BCM4318 wireless chip on a
> laptop running debian 5.01 and it worked fine.

The thing I'm not sure about is that the wiki seems to indicate that the
firmware installation is completely automated, but then I see things explaining
when you need to use the b43 fw, and when you need to use the b43legacy fw. Is
is automatically detected and loaded? I tried entering both 'modprobe b43' and
'modprobe b43legacy', but still no go.

Thanks!

-- 
J
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 15:34:50 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:34:50 -0400
Subject: selinux strangeness
In-Reply-To: <4A4B7558.3090005-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4B49D9.9050601@gmail.com> <4A4B5E59.90104@utoronto.ca> <4A4B7558.3090005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4B821A.8070907@utoronto.ca>

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> Jamon Camisso wrote:
>> LD_ASSUME_KERNEL will fix that.
>> Read http://people.redhat.com/drepper/assumekernel.html for more.
> I did in the past something like that. Perhaps on another system. Dont 
> assume however that I understand what I did or what you wrote...
> I actually right now do not understand what you wrote... ;)

I don't assume anything which is why I pointed out the information. What 
you choose to do with it is entirely up to you, I don't know the 
intricacies of your system to be able to spoon feed an answer (though 
plugging the original error message into google and retrieving that 
first result seems close enough).

> The situation is really crazy. Now, I find that when I issue "xdosemu" 
> command from terminal window, it sometimes works. And.. sometimes it 
> does not work, producing error message. This is a something entirely out 
> of mind.

Set that environment variable and then see.

>>
>> People tend to blame selinux for a lot of problems that they haven't 
>> encountered before, but generally, if your problem is selinux related, 
>> there will be a message in /var/log/messages and 
>> /var/log/audit/audit.log.
> 
> I know about these messages.
>>
>> selinux isn't the boogeyman (turn it back on), though I dislike 
>> working with it sometimes since the logged messages are rather verbose 
>> and yet still somewhat cryptic.
>>
> I disagree somewhat about all this selinux. If one can not understand 
> security, than that is not security.

That's the advantage of selinux, you can't break it if you don't 
understand it, all you can do it turn it off. It is an effective way to 
keep people who should know better from making a mess in their system.

To turn it off you have to be root and have to know that you're turning 
it off. If you break something after that, it's a simple matter of pebkac.

> Besides, what a hell is this selinux for? Anyone around could really 
> explain? I mean - I do probably know what for (and I doubt that the 
> model used there is really useful commonly), but I want to hear from the 
> list.

It enforces mandatory access controls via the kernel's lsm framework.
http://magazine.redhat.com/2007/05/04/whats-new-in-selinux-for-red-hat-enterprise-linux-5/

Jamon
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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 15:36:01 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:36:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SeLinux Talk
Message-ID: <48482.72089.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Could someone give a talk on SeLinux, I would really like to understand this topic better and would attend this meeting.

I've only managed to figure out how to change the security context of a directory or file =)

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


      __________________________________________________________________
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.  Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca

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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 16:42:38 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:42:38 +0400
Subject: selinux strangeness
In-Reply-To: <4A4B821A.8070907-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4B49D9.9050601@gmail.com> <4A4B5E59.90104@utoronto.ca> <4A4B7558.3090005@gmail.com> <4A4B821A.8070907@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <4A4B91FE.3040501@gmail.com>

Jamon Camisso wrote:
> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>> Jamon Camisso wrote:
>>> LD_ASSUME_KERNEL will fix that.
>>> Read http://people.redhat.com/drepper/assumekernel.html for more.
>> I did in the past something like that. Perhaps on another system. 
>> Dont assume however that I understand what I did or what you wrote...
>> I actually right now do not understand what you wrote... ;)
>
> I don't assume anything which is why I pointed out the information. 
> What you choose to do with it is entirely up to you, I don't know the 
> intricacies of your system to be able to spoon feed an answer (though 
> plugging the original error message into google and retrieving that 
> first result seems close enough).
>
>> The situation is really crazy. Now, I find that when I issue 
>> "xdosemu" command from terminal window, it sometimes works. And.. 
>> sometimes it does not work, producing error message. This is a 
>> something entirely out of mind.
>
> Set that environment variable and then see.
>
>>>
>>> People tend to blame selinux for a lot of problems that they haven't 
>>> encountered before, but generally, if your problem is selinux 
>>> related, there will be a message in /var/log/messages and 
>>> /var/log/audit/audit.log.
>>
>> I know about these messages.
>>>
>>> selinux isn't the boogeyman (turn it back on), though I dislike 
>>> working with it sometimes since the logged messages are rather 
>>> verbose and yet still somewhat cryptic.
>>>
>> I disagree somewhat about all this selinux. If one can not understand 
>> security, than that is not security.
>
> That's the advantage of selinux, you can't break it if you don't 
> understand it, all you can do it turn it off. It is an effective way 
> to keep people who should know better from making a mess in their system.
>
> To turn it off you have to be root and have to know that you're 
> turning it off. If you break something after that, it's a simple 
> matter of pebkac.
>
>> Besides, what a hell is this selinux for? Anyone around could really 
>> explain? I mean - I do probably know what for (and I doubt that the 
>> model used there is really useful commonly), but I want to hear from 
>> the list.
>
> It enforces mandatory access controls via the kernel's lsm framework.
> http://magazine.redhat.com/2007/05/04/whats-new-in-selinux-for-red-hat-enterprise-linux-5/ 
>
Thanks ;)

Well... I still claim that 93.37% of users of _this_ list does not 
understand what is selinux ;)

My feeling is that it is basically about local access control. Or.. if a 
hacker brakes in and compiles something as root than after installing 
shitty stuff these may not work. Good. But this is not a sort of 
security we are mostly used to think about, a kind that would prevent 
hacking the system from outside. It rather helps to keep the system 
intact from fool actions of users and... root.

There is a catch. Often, oh God, how often, I did install software from 
outside and then I had to suffer a lot because of crazy, cryptic error 
messages. The reason? Well... software was not compiled properly with 
selinux in mind...

Dont assume that I am entirely ignorant in this subject ;) I did play 
with selinux security ;)

zb.


>
> Jamon
> -- 
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 16:58:47 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:58:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <20090701113106.4e3f719d-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost> <20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011251480.6381@localhost>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:

> Robert P. J. Day wrote:

[referring to http://wiki.debian.org/bcm43xx]

> >   i just followed the same page for a BCM4318 wireless chip on a
> > laptop running debian 5.01 and it worked fine.
>
> The thing I'm not sure about is that the wiki seems to indicate that the
> firmware installation is completely automated, ...

  for me, it was.  first, i made this change to /etc/apt/sources.list:

   deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian lenny main contrib non-free

then ran:

  # apt-get install b43-fwcutter wireless-tools

at which point i was prompted to allow the installation of the actual
firmware.  if memory serves, i simply said yes, away it went and when
it was over, "lsmod" showed me numerous b43-related loaded modules.

  i still had no wireless until i invoked System -> Administration ->
Network.  didn't *do* anything there, just opened it up and closed it
and, suddenly, Network Manager could see the wireless networks in the
area.  i'm not a debian guru so i'm guessing that doing that somehow
ran a combo of iwconfig/ifconfig underneath.  in any event, wireless!
no need to modprobe anything.  surprisingly painless.

  this was all on a gateway mx7120, 64-bit AMD CPU, with BCM3418
802.11g wireless.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 17:12:41 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 13:12:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: why might debian install require constant pressing of
 ENTER?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011018190.26820-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011004310.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011018190.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011309070.6674@localhost>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

> | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>
>
> | I seem to vaguely remember there being occasions where my systems have
> | perked up when I hit the keyboard.
>
> There is one case where this can be explained: when the system is
> generating keys (eg. for IPSec or BIND or SSHD) it needs random
> numbers.
>
> /dev/random will only yield bytes if the system thinks that it has
> enough "entropy"; otherwise, a read will hang until enough entropy
> has accumulated.  One source of entropy is keystroke timing and
> another is mouse events.

  the *instant* i saw the aforementioned behaviour (cripplingly slow
install unless i kept pressing ENTER or, in the case of a graphical
install, moving the mouse), my absolutely first reaction was, "crap,
it needs entropy for something."  seriously, i did think that but it
just seemed weird because it needed that *constantly*.  i could see
maybe occasionally having to pause but this was non-stop.  literally,
this morning, installing debian 5.01 on my gateway laptop, i just put
something heavy on the ENTER key and left it there, that's how absurd
it was.

  does anyone have a solid explanation for this?  entropy sounds like
a good guess, but i'm feeling it's still a guess.

rday
--


========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 18:02:44 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:02:44 -0600
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <20090701113106.4e3f719d-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost> <20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <E53600B1-2A1C-42F5-9B73-DBFE8842072A@gmail.com>

 From what I remember, You should only use one or the other of "b43"  
or "b43legacy."

Also, I'd have to check your particular card, but from my experience  
the b43 drivers don't often support the 802.11N cards. My coworkers N  
card requires ndiswrapper, and mine works with the closed "wl" driver  
that broadcomm themselves maintain (similar to the nvidia/ATI binary  
blob drivers for video)

I can check further when I get home and at my laptop if you'd like



(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 1-Jul-09, at 9:31 AM, JoeHill <joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:
>>
>>> I've got a notebook here with built in Broadcom wireless, and before
>>> I mess this up too much I though I would ask for some tips in
>>> getting this working.
>>>
>>> I did lspci and got the model like so:
>>>
>>> Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4328 802.11a/b/g/n  
>>> (rev 03)
>>>
>>> I found this article:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.debian.org/bcm43xx
>>>
>>> which seemed to indicate that this was going to be a pretty trivial
>>> process. Installing the b43-fwcutter and wireless-tools went off
>>> without error and the firmware was extracted, but so far I've got no
>>> wireless.
>>>
>>> I followed the suggested troubleshooting steps, excluding manual
>>> installation of the firmware, no answers.
>>
>>  i just followed the same page for a BCM4318 wireless chip on a
>> laptop running debian 5.01 and it worked fine.
>
> The thing I'm not sure about is that the wiki seems to indicate that  
> the
> firmware installation is completely automated, but then I see things  
> explaining
> when you need to use the b43 fw, and when you need to use the  
> b43legacy fw. Is
> is automatically detected and loaded? I tried entering both  
> 'modprobe b43' and
> 'modprobe b43legacy', but still no go.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -- 
> J
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 18:54:13 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:54:13 -0400
Subject: why might debian install require constant pressing of
 ENTER?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011309070.6674@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011004310.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011018190.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011309070.6674@localhost>
Message-ID: <4A4BB0D5.1060705@dinamis.com>

On 01/07/09 01:12 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> 
>> | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org>
>>
>> | I seem to vaguely remember there being occasions where my systems have
>> | perked up when I hit the keyboard.
>>
>> There is one case where this can be explained: when the system is
>> generating keys (eg. for IPSec or BIND or SSHD) it needs random
>> numbers.
>>
>> /dev/random will only yield bytes if the system thinks that it has
>> enough "entropy"; otherwise, a read will hang until enough entropy
>> has accumulated.  One source of entropy is keystroke timing and
>> another is mouse events.
> 
>   the *instant* i saw the aforementioned behaviour (cripplingly slow
> install unless i kept pressing ENTER or, in the case of a graphical
> install, moving the mouse), my absolutely first reaction was, "crap,
> it needs entropy for something."  seriously, i did think that but it
> just seemed weird because it needed that *constantly*.  i could see
> maybe occasionally having to pause but this was non-stop.  literally,
> this morning, installing debian 5.01 on my gateway laptop, i just put
> something heavy on the ENTER key and left it there, that's how absurd
> it was.
> 
>   does anyone have a solid explanation for this?  entropy sounds like
> a good guess, but i'm feeling it's still a guess.


Maybe you can borrow Colin McGregor's cat(s) while you're doing
installations. I recall Colin (I think) asking about how to keep his
cats from sleeping on one of his systems. Perhaps random cat movements
across your keyboard might expedite the Debian installation process. You
might have to rig some sort of cat toy on either side of the computer to
get them to walk back and forth across your keyboard and channel their
movements accordingly rather than just have them curl up and sleep on
the keyboard. Some trial and error might be necessary because, well, I'm
sure you've heard the expression "herding kittens".

By the way, do you think I might be able to get a patent on "Feline
Facilitated Entropy for Computer Systems"? This could be a good subject
for a Ph.D. thesis.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 19:01:53 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:01:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: why might debian install require constant pressing of
 ENTER?
In-Reply-To: <4A4BB0D5.1060705-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011004310.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011018190.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011309070.6674@localhost> <4A4BB0D5.1060705@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907011500320.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: CLIFFORD ILKAY <clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>

| Maybe you can borrow Colin McGregor's cat(s) while you're doing
| installations.

Or Schr?dinger's.

From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 19:40:17 2009
From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:40:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PHP
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907010749r6504dd30s5c416c11ac03b64d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <64b8391116a18367e46f209dc0e16734.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
    <20090630063355.GA7225@yam.witteman.ca>
    <5aa434200906301159q2aeb6f9eh771f878f114cad51@mail.gmail.com>
    <5fce9a0806cbd1e69266457006384e4c.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
    <1f13df280907010749r6504dd30s5c416c11ac03b64d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a414804f76b6b30a95d3e50550975247.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>

> 2009/6/30 Jason Carson <jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org>:
>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:33 AM, William O'Higgins
>>> Witteman<william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 01:28:00AM -0400, Jason Carson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Does anyone know the difference between "Programming PHP" and
>>>>> "Learning
>>>>>PHP5". Both are published by O'reilly.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming that it is like any other "learning/programming" O'Reilly
>>>> books, the Learning title is a beginner book that covers the basics,
>>>> and
>>>> the Programming book assumes you can already program, and just need to
>>>> know how the language works, the pitfalls and the details. ?There is
>>>> usually a much larger section explaining the common or included
>>>> libraries as well. ?The Programming book will also be three times
>>>> thicker, and a better value/reference than the Learning book.
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> yours,
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>
>>> Seconding Mr. Witteman here. In the case of Programming Perl and
>>> Learning Perl, it's exactly this way. Learning Perl is a beginner's
>>> introduction. By contrast, well, "Programming Perl" is sometimes
>>> called "The Perl Bible" for a reason.
>>>
>>> Personally, I'd go for "Programming PHP", but that depends on your own
>>> background and whatnot.
>>>
>>> - Mike
>>> --
>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>>
>> ok, great, thanks for info guys :-)
>
> From personal experience in dealing with both "Learning" and
> "Programming" books in both Perl and Python ... do NOT buy the
> "Programming" book if you are a beginner.  It's for intermediates and
> I'm sure it's good, and it'd be a good reference: but honestly, the
> "Learning" books are what you need and will take you a long way.
>
> --
> Giles
> http://www.gilesorr.com/
> gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

Yeah, I am new to programming. I know HTML and a little PHP from messing
around with PHP scripts I have used but I don't know enough to create my
own scripts from scratch. I came across another book by O'Reilly called
"Learning PHP and MySQL" so I bought that as that is what I want to learn.

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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 19:41:12 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:41:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Perl or Python?
Message-ID: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


I am considering investing some time learning a script language to automate stuff etc.

Has anyone here used both/either perl and python? I would like to get their feel on which is better for writing powerful yet simple scripts? I am a C++ developer so I don't need to learn about programming, just want to know which of the two script is really easy to pick up and has all the module support I could ever need?

I assume python was designed to be object-oriented from the start and thus would lend to clean OO coding. Can python do everything perl can in terms of text manipulation and extraction?

comments, feedback welcome.

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


      __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/

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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 19:46:47 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Perl or Python?
Message-ID: <723433.75040.qm@web111212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


I came across this on the Python page:

"Because of its more general data types Python is applicable to a much larger problem domain than Awk or even Perl, yet many things are at least as easy in Python as in those languages."

The reason I am asking is if I wanted to write my own simple package manager for the Linux distro I am planning to created from scratch I would like to have a script language to do all this in to automate steps, etc.

Yes I am well aware there are package managers out there for me to use.

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Rajinder Yadav <devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> From: Rajinder Yadav <devguy at ymail.com>
> Subject: [TLUG]: Perl or Python?
> To: "[TLUG]" <tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org>
> Received: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 3:41 PM
> 
> I am considering investing some time learning a script
> language to automate stuff etc.
> 
> Has anyone here used both/either perl and python? I would
> like to get their feel on which is better for writing
> powerful yet simple scripts? I am a C++ developer so I don't
> need to learn about programming, just want to know which of
> the two script is really easy to pick up and has all the
> module support I could ever need?
> 
> I assume python was designed to be object-oriented from the
> start and thus would lend to clean OO coding. Can python do
> everything perl can in terms of text manipulation and
> extraction?
> 
> comments, feedback welcome.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
> 
> 
> ? ? ?
> __________________________________________________________________
> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/gift/
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ?
> Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80
> columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


      __________________________________________________________________
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 19:57:10 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:57:10 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <175305.22518.qm-LGZSB/hsMXIA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A4BBF96.4030204@alteeve.com>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> I am considering investing some time learning a script language to automate stuff etc.
> 
> Has anyone here used both/either perl and python? I would like to get their feel on which is better for writing powerful yet simple scripts? I am a C++ developer so I don't need to learn about programming, just want to know which of the two script is really easy to pick up and has all the module support I could ever need?
> 
> I assume python was designed to be object-oriented from the start and thus would lend to clean OO coding. Can python do everything perl can in terms of text manipulation and extraction?
> 
> comments, feedback welcome.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav

As a perl coder, I've been told by many people that I should try python. :)

For what I gather, Python enforces more rigid coding style, so I think 
it is hard to shoot yourself in the foot. Also, people often tell me 
that it's language is much more "natural" compared to spoken English. 
I've decided that once I get to a point where I feel comfortable as a 
perl programmer (if), I will give Python a go.

As for Perl;

I think that people see it's strengths as it's weaknesses. It really 
enforces nothing. This can lend itself to very creative applications of 
the language. You can also drive yourself mad trying to find bugs 
because just about everything is a valid statement is some way or another.

For example, I recently beat my head against the wall for over an hour 
trying to figure out why:

my @months=["", "January", "February", "...", "December"];

Was not returning the month when I tried:

my $this_month=$months[2];

I expected "February", but got nothing. The reason? I was using square 
brackets '[]' instead of braces '()'. This was valid in perl, so no 
errors were generated. What I actually did was create an array whose 
first element was a reference to an anonymous array containing my 
months. To get the date out with the error in place, I would have had to 
say 'my $this_month=$months[0]->[2]'.

It comes down to personality, I think. I personally *love* the 
flexibility of perl and frequently exploit it's many quirks. to get 
complex issues done with relative ease. However, I am arguably quite 
crazy, too, so there you go. :)

No one will be able to answer for you what is best for you to learn. You 
will probably be best served by thinking of some problem you'd like to 
solve and then try solving that problem in both Python and Perl, and 
decide based on which you liked working in the most.

Best of luck!

Madi
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 20:57:53 2009
From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 16:57:53 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <175305.22518.qm-LGZSB/hsMXIA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090701165753.528cbdce@gravid>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:41:12 -0700 (PDT)
Rajinder Yadav <devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> 
> I am considering investing some time learning a script language to
> automate stuff etc.
> 
> Has anyone here used both/either perl and python? I would like to get
> their feel on which is better for writing powerful yet simple
> scripts? I am a C++ developer so I don't need to learn about
> programming, just want to know which of the two script is really easy
> to pick up and has all the module support I could ever need?
> 
> I assume python was designed to be object-oriented from the start and
> thus would lend to clean OO coding. Can python do everything perl can
> in terms of text manipulation and extraction?
> 
> comments, feedback welcome.
> 

I've coded in both, but have much more experience with Perl. 

It's basically a "use the right tool for the right job" argument.

"Powerful yet simple scripts" is too vague. What is powerful? What is
simple? Does simple mean least number of lines? Then perl is probably
your beast. If it means programs that are easy to read and follow? Then
it's python. If by powerful you mean has a large standard library,
implements OO "properly", I'd recommend python. If by powerful you mean
can handle regular expressions in string matching implicitly, then use
perl. 

Perl was made for parsing documents. Think of it as a step up from
bash scripting. With CPAN, you can find Perl modules that do pretty
much anything. It is extremely flexible, but it's not uncommon to find
Perl scripts that look like a dump from /dev/urandom.

Python is still a high-level scripting language, but higher than Perl
is. Python is more like Java, really. It is a full-fledged language in
the sense that it comes with a standard library, enforces stronger
syntax requirements, etc. etc. 

Marc

-- 
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
  -- Linus Torvalds
--
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From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 21:09:52 2009
From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 17:09:52 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <723433.75040.qm-ocD5SZSfVayZZBmlwP4mLPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <723433.75040.qm@web111212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090701170952.6c48fffb@gravid>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT)
Rajinder Yadav <devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> 
> I came across this on the Python page:
> 
> "Because of its more general data types Python is applicable to a
> much larger problem domain than Awk or even Perl, yet many things are
> at least as easy in Python as in those languages."
> 
> The reason I am asking is if I wanted to write my own simple package
> manager for the Linux distro I am planning to created from scratch I
> would like to have a script language to do all this in to automate
> steps, etc.
> 
> Yes I am well aware there are package managers out there for me to
> use.

You know APT is coded in C++, right? Yum is coded in Python. If it's
between Python and Perl, for this particular tool I'd recommend Perl. I
could be slightly biased because I find Yum so darn slow. I don't know
if that's because Python is slower than Perl in general, though I feel
that might be true. 

By the way, what is your incentive for making yet another package
manager (yapm?). If you have no good reason to reinvent the wheel, I
suggest you consider using Zero Install:

  http://0install.net/
  http://0install.net/matrix.html

I'm still waiting to hear of a distro that uses it as its main package
manager :)

Marc

-- 
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
  -- Linus Torvalds
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 21:17:45 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:17:45 -0400
Subject: JS "onclick" stops the given button from being passed to CGI
Message-ID: <4A4BD279.3000902@alteeve.com>

Hi all,

   I've added an 'onclick' event to an HTML form button, and now the 
value set in the button is not being passed to/picked up by my script. 
This is a problem because how I process the script depends on what 
button the user pressed.

   Anyone run into this before? Any idea how to get around it? Removing 
the 'onclick' function solves the problem, but I need the function, so... :)

Madi
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 21:31:44 2009
From: mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Matthew Godycki)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 14:31:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: JS "onclick" stops the given button from being passed to CGI
In-Reply-To: <4A4BD279.3000902-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4BD279.3000902@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <877851.54813.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com>




> Hi all,
> 
>  I've added an 'onclick' event to an HTML form button, and now the value set in the 
> button is not being passed to/picked up by my script. This is a problem because 
> how I process the script depends on what button the user pressed.
> Anyone run into this before? Any idea how to get around it? Removing the
> 'onclick' function solves the problem, but I need the function, so... :)

Don't forget to make sure the script for the onclick event has a return value.  Ie,
'return true', etc.

Cheers,
-M

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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 21:41:50 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:41:50 -0400
Subject: JS "onclick" stops the given button from being passed
 to CGI
In-Reply-To: <877851.54813.qm-5xIzErvUpPiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4BD279.3000902@alteeve.com> <877851.54813.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A4BD81E.3000307@alteeve.com>

Matthew Godycki wrote:
> 
> 
>> Hi all,
>>
>>  I've added an 'onclick' event to an HTML form button, and now the value set in the 
>> button is not being passed to/picked up by my script. This is a problem because 
>> how I process the script depends on what button the user pressed.
>> Anyone run into this before? Any idea how to get around it? Removing the
>> 'onclick' function solves the problem, but I need the function, so... :)
> 
> Don't forget to make sure the script for the onclick event has a return value.  Ie,
> 'return true', etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> -M

Thanks, but with 'return true;' it still doesn't pass back the value of 
the button. =(

Madi
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 21:45:33 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:45:33 -0400
Subject: JS "onclick" stops the given button from being passed
 to CGI
In-Reply-To: <877851.54813.qm-5xIzErvUpPiB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4BD279.3000902@alteeve.com> <877851.54813.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A4BD8FD.2070901@alteeve.com>

Matthew Godycki wrote:
> 
> 
>> Hi all,
>>
>>  I've added an 'onclick' event to an HTML form button, and now the value set in the 
>> button is not being passed to/picked up by my script. This is a problem because 
>> how I process the script depends on what button the user pressed.
>> Anyone run into this before? Any idea how to get around it? Removing the
>> 'onclick' function solves the problem, but I need the function, so... :)
> 
> Don't forget to make sure the script for the onclick event has a return value.  Ie,
> 'return true', etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> -M

In case it makes a difference, the button is an '<input type="image" ...>".

<input type="image" name="rescan" id="rescan" value="true" alt="Rescan" 
src="/skins/interlink/images/icon_reload_small.png" 
onclick="lockOnSubmit('line_info', 'rescan');" onMouseOver="stm(...)" 
onMouseOut="htm()">

Madi
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 22:20:55 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:20:55 -0400
Subject: JS "onclick" stops the given button from being passed
 to CGI
In-Reply-To: <4A4BD8FD.2070901-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4BD279.3000902@alteeve.com> <877851.54813.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A4BD8FD.2070901@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <4A4BE147.3000103@alteeve.com>

Madison Kelly wrote:
> Matthew Godycki wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>  I've added an 'onclick' event to an HTML form button, and now the 
>>> value set in the button is not being passed to/picked up by my 
>>> script. This is a problem because how I process the script depends on 
>>> what button the user pressed.
>>> Anyone run into this before? Any idea how to get around it? Removing the
>>> 'onclick' function solves the problem, but I need the function, so... :)
>>
>> Don't forget to make sure the script for the onclick event has a 
>> return value.  Ie,
>> 'return true', etc.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -M
> 
> In case it makes a difference, the button is an '<input type="image" ...>".
> 
> <input type="image" name="rescan" id="rescan" value="true" alt="Rescan" 
> src="/skins/interlink/images/icon_reload_small.png" 
> onclick="lockOnSubmit('line_info', 'rescan');" onMouseOver="stm(...)" 
> onMouseOut="htm()">
> 
> Madi


Found the problem... I disable the button to prevent multiple submits, 
but of course, this disables returning it's value. *sigh*.

Madi
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 22:23:01 2009
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:23:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Perl or Python?y
In-Reply-To: <175305.22518.qm-LGZSB/hsMXIA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LMD.2.00.0907011821230.3961@doublethink>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Rajinder Yadav wrote:

> 
> I am considering investing some time learning a script language to automate stuff etc.
> 
> Has anyone here used both/either perl and python?

      I have dabbled in both, and always return to the shell.


> I would like to get their feel on which is better for writing powerful yet simple scripts? I am a C++ developer so I don't need to learn about programming, just want to know which of the two script is really easy to pick up and has all the module support I could ever need?
> 
> I assume python was designed to be object-oriented from the start and thus would lend to clean OO coding. Can python do everything perl can in terms of text manipulation and extraction?
> 
> comments, feedback welcome.

-- 
   Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster         <http://woodbine-gerrard.com>
   Author:
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
--
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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 22:29:28 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Perl or Python?
Message-ID: <837429.42938.qm@web111210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Marc thanks for your input,

since both perl and python are consider high level languages and I am already coding in C++, I guess I could say they are both easy to learn.

So by "simple" I guess what I should have said is, which language is clean and easier to maintain. Since I already understand OO concepts, I guess it would make sense to leverage those skills, which would imply Python is the way to go.

Also it seems you can do more with Python in terms of building real-world applications around it, if I am to believe the Python tutorial. I like the idea of not having to compile and link, so for very simple things I would most likely leverage using Python or Perl.

I really like the idea of having an extensive library to work with, good to know Python has this covered.

The only reason I would want to write a package manager is for learning, better understanding. I have not yet started to look into existing package managers.

I feel if I am going to build my Linux skills I should learn at least a script language that I am proficient with =)

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> From: Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org>
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Perl or Python?
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Received: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 4:57 PM
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:41:12 -0700
> (PDT)
> Rajinder Yadav <devguy at ymail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I am considering investing some time learning a script
> language to
> > automate stuff etc.
> > 
> > Has anyone here used both/either perl and python? I
> would like to get
> > their feel on which is better for writing powerful yet
> simple
> > scripts? I am a C++ developer so I don't need to learn
> about
> > programming, just want to know which of the two script
> is really easy
> > to pick up and has all the module support I could ever
> need?
> > 
> > I assume python was designed to be object-oriented
> from the start and
> > thus would lend to clean OO coding. Can python do
> everything perl can
> > in terms of text manipulation and extraction?
> > 
> > comments, feedback welcome.
> > 
> 
> I've coded in both, but have much more experience with
> Perl. 
> 
> It's basically a "use the right tool for the right job"
> argument.
> 
> "Powerful yet simple scripts" is too vague. What is
> powerful? What is
> simple? Does simple mean least number of lines? Then perl
> is probably
> your beast. If it means programs that are easy to read and
> follow? Then
> it's python. If by powerful you mean has a large standard
> library,
> implements OO "properly", I'd recommend python. If by
> powerful you mean
> can handle regular expressions in string matching
> implicitly, then use
> perl. 
> 
> Perl was made for parsing documents. Think of it as a step
> up from
> bash scripting. With CPAN, you can find Perl modules that
> do pretty
> much anything. It is extremely flexible, but it's not
> uncommon to find
> Perl scripts that look like a dump from /dev/urandom.
> 
> Python is still a high-level scripting language, but higher
> than Perl
> is. Python is more like Java, really. It is a full-fledged
> language in
> the sense that it comes with a standard library, enforces
> stronger
> syntax requirements, etc. etc. 
> 
> Marc
> 
> -- 
> If you want to travel around the world and be invited to
> speak at a lot
> of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
> ? -- Linus Torvalds
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ?
> Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80
> columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 22:47:11 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:47:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Perl or Python?
Message-ID: <463813.82152.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Marc,

thanks again for pointing out 0install. I guess I could give it a trial run and see how easy it is to create a package for CodeBlock that I just got build for my system. This C++ IDE had many addition supporting software I needed to build. So if I can roll my currently CodeBlock install up very easily and install it on a virgin CentOS, that would be a good test.

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> From: Marc Lanctot <lanctot at ualberta..ca>
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Perl or Python?
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Received: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 5:09 PM
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:46:47 -0700
> (PDT)
> Rajinder Yadav <devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I came across this on the Python page:
> > 
> > "Because of its more general data types Python is
> applicable to a
> > much larger problem domain than Awk or even Perl, yet
> many things are
> > at least as easy in Python as in those languages."
> > 
> > The reason I am asking is if I wanted to write my own
> simple package
> > manager for the Linux distro I am planning to created
> from scratch I
> > would like to have a script language to do all this in
> to automate
> > steps, etc.
> > 
> > Yes I am well aware there are package managers out
> there for me to
> > use.
> 
> You know APT is coded in C++, right? Yum is coded in
> Python. If it's
> between Python and Perl, for this particular tool I'd
> recommend Perl. I
> could be slightly biased because I find Yum so darn slow. I
> don't know
> if that's because Python is slower than Perl in general,
> though I feel
> that might be true. 
> 
> By the way, what is your incentive for making yet another
> package
> manager (yapm?). If you have no good reason to reinvent the
> wheel, I
> suggest you consider using Zero Install:
> 
> ? http://0install.net/
> ? http://0install.net/matrix.html
> 
> I'm still waiting to hear of a distro that uses it as its
> main package
> manager :)
> 
> Marc
> 
> -- 
> If you want to travel around the world and be invited to
> speak at a lot
> of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
> ? -- Linus Torvalds
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ?
> Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80
> columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


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From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 23:02:14 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 19:02:14 -0400
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <E53600B1-2A1C-42F5-9B73-DBFE8842072A-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost>
	<20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com>
	<E53600B1-2A1C-42F5-9B73-DBFE8842072A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090701190214.0908b45b@teksavvy.com>

Aviss,Tyler wrote: 

>  From what I remember, You should only use one or the other of "b43"  
> or "b43legacy."

That's the thing, I couldn't really see anywhere in the process that I had a
choice...
 
> Also, I'd have to check your particular card, but from my experience  
> the b43 drivers don't often support the 802.11N cards. My coworkers N  
> card requires ndiswrapper, and mine works with the closed "wl" driver  
> that broadcomm themselves maintain (similar to the nvidia/ATI binary  
> blob drivers for video)
> 
> I can check further when I get home and at my laptop if you'd like

That would be awesome if you could. I would like to avoid ndiswrapper, but if I
have to I have to, right?

Thanks!

-- 
J
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 23:07:09 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:07:09 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <463813.82152.qm-ocD5SZSfVaz6X00i2u5GFvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <463813.82152.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A4BEC1D.80206@utoronto.ca>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> Marc,
> 
> thanks again for pointing out 0install. I guess I could give it a trial run and see how easy it is to create a package for CodeBlock that I just got build for my system. This C++ IDE had many addition supporting software I needed to build. So if I can roll my currently CodeBlock install up very easily and install it on a virgin CentOS, that would be a good test.

Arch's pacman is supposed to be quite good, done in C as well so you 
might find it rather more intuitive to hack on. I'm sure the Arch folk 
would love to have someone else use pacman for their distro as well 
(only one or two others do iirc).

Jamon
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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 23:10:27 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 16:10:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Perl or Python?
Message-ID: <764218.47556.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


My quest as lead me down the path to also consider Ruby =)

The website states: 

"The beauty of Ruby is found in its balance between simplicity and power." - Marc, yes it's a vague statement ;)

More to the point the creator says this:

Initially, Matz looked at other languages to find an ideal syntax. Recalling his search, he said, ?I wanted a scripting language that was more powerful than Perl, and more object-oriented than Python3.?

Are there any Ruby fans?

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Rajinder Yadav <devguy at ymail.com> wrote:

> From: Rajinder Yadav <devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Perl or Python?
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Received: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 6:47 PM
> 
> Marc,
> 
> thanks again for pointing out 0install. I guess I could
> give it a trial run and see how easy it is to create a
> package for CodeBlock that I just got build for my system.
> This C++ IDE had many addition supporting software I needed
> to build. So if I can roll my currently CodeBlock install up
> very easily and install it on a virgin CentOS, that would be
> a good test.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 7/1/09, Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Marc Lanctot <lanctot at ualberta..ca>
> > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Perl or Python?
> > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> > Received: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 5:09 PM
> > On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:46:47 -0700
> > (PDT)
> > Rajinder Yadav <devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I came across this on the Python page:
> > > 
> > > "Because of its more general data types Python
> is
> > applicable to a
> > > much larger problem domain than Awk or even Perl,
> yet
> > many things are
> > > at least as easy in Python as in those
> languages."
> > > 
> > > The reason I am asking is if I wanted to write my
> own
> > simple package
> > > manager for the Linux distro I am planning to
> created
> > from scratch I
> > > would like to have a script language to do all
> this in
> > to automate
> > > steps, etc.
> > > 
> > > Yes I am well aware there are package managers
> out
> > there for me to
> > > use.
> > 
> > You know APT is coded in C++, right? Yum is coded in
> > Python. If it's
> > between Python and Perl, for this particular tool I'd
> > recommend Perl. I
> > could be slightly biased because I find Yum so darn
> slow. I
> > don't know
> > if that's because Python is slower than Perl in
> general,
> > though I feel
> > that might be true. 
> > 
> > By the way, what is your incentive for making yet
> another
> > package
> > manager (yapm?). If you have no good reason to
> reinvent the
> > wheel, I
> > suggest you consider using Zero Install:
> > 
> > ? http://0install.net/
> > ? http://0install.net/matrix.html
> > 
> > I'm still waiting to hear of a distro that uses it as
> its
> > main package
> > manager :)
> > 
> > Marc
> > 
> > -- 
> > If you want to travel around the world and be invited
> to
> > speak at a lot
> > of different places, just write a Unix operating
> system.
> > ? -- Linus Torvalds
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ?
> > Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below
> 80
> > columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> > 
> 
> 
> ? ? ?
> __________________________________________________________________
> Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with
> All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ?
> Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80
> columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


      __________________________________________________________________
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  1 23:09:39 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 19:09:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <20090701190214.0908b45b-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost> <20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com> <E53600B1-2A1C-42F5-9B73-DBFE8842072A@gmail.com> <20090701190214.0908b45b@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011908430.3137@localhost>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:

> Aviss,Tyler wrote:
>
> >  From what I remember, You should only use one or the other of
> > "b43"  or "b43legacy."
>
> That's the thing, I couldn't really see anywhere in the process that
> I had a choice...

  i never had to make a choice.  once i installed the packages,
the firmware was downloaded automatically and the b43-related modules
were loaded for me.

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 00:02:24 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:02:24 -0400
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011251480.6381@localhost>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost>
	<20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011251480.6381@localhost>
Message-ID: <20090701200224.05a76b58@teksavvy.com>

Robert P. J. Day wrote: 

> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:
> 
> > Robert P. J. Day wrote:  
> 
> [referring to http://wiki.debian.org/bcm43xx]
> 
> > >   i just followed the same page for a BCM4318 wireless chip on a
> > > laptop running debian 5.01 and it worked fine.  
> >
> > The thing I'm not sure about is that the wiki seems to indicate that the
> > firmware installation is completely automated, ...  
> 
>   for me, it was.  first, i made this change to /etc/apt/sources.list:
> 
>    deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian lenny main contrib non-free
> 
> then ran:
> 
>   # apt-get install b43-fwcutter wireless-tools
> 
> at which point i was prompted to allow the installation of the actual
> firmware.  if memory serves, i simply said yes, away it went and when
> it was over, "lsmod" showed me numerous b43-related loaded modules.

Ack! This is where lack of experience comes in...forgot lsmod. When I run
lsmod, there is nothing in there about b43.

>   i still had no wireless until i invoked System -> Administration ->
> Network.  didn't *do* anything there, just opened it up and closed it
> and, suddenly, Network Manager could see the wireless networks in the
> area.  i'm not a debian guru so i'm guessing that doing that somehow
> ran a combo of iwconfig/ifconfig underneath.  in any event, wireless!
> no need to modprobe anything.  surprisingly painless.
> 
>   this was all on a gateway mx7120, 64-bit AMD CPU, with BCM3418
> 802.11g wireless.

Does your notebook have a 'switch' for the wireless? This one has a sliding
toggle on the front that switches between a blue and a red indicator. I assume
blue is 'on', red is 'off'?

-- 
J
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 00:11:55 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:11:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <20090701200224.05a76b58-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost> <20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011251480.6381@localhost> <20090701200224.05a76b58@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907012011100.3000@localhost>

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:

> Does your notebook have a 'switch' for the wireless? This one has a
> sliding toggle on the front that switches between a blue and a red
> indicator. I assume blue is 'on', red is 'off'?

  on/off switch on the left hand side.   currently on, of course.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 00:32:32 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:32:32 -0400
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907012011100.3000@localhost>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost>
	<20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011251480.6381@localhost>
	<20090701200224.05a76b58@teksavvy.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907012011100.3000@localhost>
Message-ID: <20090701203232.4c5feaea@teksavvy.com>

Robert P. J. Day wrote: 

> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:
> 
> > Does your notebook have a 'switch' for the wireless? This one has a
> > sliding toggle on the front that switches between a blue and a red
> > indicator. I assume blue is 'on', red is 'off'?  
> 
>   on/off switch on the left hand side.   currently on, of course.

Hmmm. Just tried the switch again, looks like it switches between Bluetooth and
Wireless LAN? When I switch it to blue, a Bluetooth icon shows up in the
notification area.

Makes no difference, though. Still no wireless connection in Network Manager.

-- 
J
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 00:55:29 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:55:29 -0400
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing, Trying NDISWrapper
In-Reply-To: <E53600B1-2A1C-42F5-9B73-DBFE8842072A-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost>
	<20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com>
	<E53600B1-2A1C-42F5-9B73-DBFE8842072A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090701205529.03788a63@teksavvy.com>

Aviss,Tyler wrote: 

>  From what I remember, You should only use one or the other of "b43"  
> or "b43legacy."
> 
> Also, I'd have to check your particular card, but from my experience  
> the b43 drivers don't often support the 802.11N cards. My coworkers N  
> card requires ndiswrapper, and mine works with the closed "wl" driver  
> that broadcomm themselves maintain (similar to the nvidia/ATI binary  
> blob drivers for video)
> 
> I can check further when I get home and at my laptop if you'd like

I've just been reading some information that says the same thing, that the card
I have needs ndiswrapper. I am trying to follow this page, but the page that
should show me the right driver to download has no entry for the b4328:

http://www.burnthesorbonne.com/ndiswrapper/b.html

-- 
J
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From askshakthimaan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 04:04:10 2009
From: askshakthimaan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Shakthi Kannan)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 09:34:10 +0530
Subject: GNU Tool-Chain
In-Reply-To: <292596.14271.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJ+W+z1sZEpBPu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <292596.14271.qm@web111205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <17daacef0907012104l262993d0w8ed1a0a808f36715@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

--- On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Rajinder Yadav<devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
| If I wanted to learn more about what types of build tools are
available and what they do as well as how to use them, is there any
| good sources or books available that discuss them hopefully in some detail?
\--

Karim Yaghmour. 2003. Building Embedded Linux Systems. O'Reilly.
http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596002220/

SK

-- 
Shakthi Kannan
http://www.shakthimaan.com
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 04:04:26 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 00:04:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing
In-Reply-To: <20090701203232.4c5feaea-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost> <20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907011251480.6381@localhost> <20090701200224.05a76b58@teksavvy.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907012011100.3000@localhost>
 <20090701203232.4c5feaea@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907012251200.26820@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: JoeHill <joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>

| Hmmm. Just tried the switch again, looks like it switches between Bluetooth and
| Wireless LAN? When I switch it to blue, a Bluetooth icon shows up in the
| notification area.

On my notebook, a ThinkPad x61t, the switch turns on or off both
802.11g AND Bluetooth.  In other words, the choice is between both and
neither, not either-or (isn't English fun?).  I don't know why.
Perhaps they share the antenna -- they apparently use the same radio
spectrum.

I think that software can turn off either when they are enabled; with
even less certainty, I think that software cannot enable either when
the switch is set to off.
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 06:29:29 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 23:29:29 -0700
Subject: Broadcom wireless on Debian Testing, Trying NDISWrapper
In-Reply-To: <20090701205529.03788a63-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090701034011.3f52fd3c@teksavvy.com>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010537450.7426@localhost>
	 <20090701113106.4e3f719d@teksavvy.com>
	 <E53600B1-2A1C-42F5-9B73-DBFE8842072A@gmail.com>
	 <20090701205529.03788a63@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907012329u24858f5r195484d4b280f9aa@mail.gmail.com>

What's your laptop? Normally I just download the appropriate XP
driver, extract, and then

ndiswrapper -i bcmwl5.inf (or whatever inf file applies)

You'll need the ndiswrapper userland, as well as wireless stuff, installed.

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 5:55 PM, JoeHill<joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Aviss,Tyler wrote:
>
>> ?From what I remember, You should only use one or the other of "b43"
>> or "b43legacy."
>>
>> Also, I'd have to check your particular card, but from my experience
>> the b43 drivers don't often support the 802.11N cards. My coworkers N
>> card requires ndiswrapper, and mine works with the closed "wl" driver
>> that broadcomm themselves maintain (similar to the nvidia/ATI binary
>> blob drivers for video)
>>
>> I can check further when I get home and at my laptop if you'd like
>
> I've just been reading some information that says the same thing, that the card
> I have needs ndiswrapper. I am trying to follow this page, but the page that
> should show me the right driver to download has no entry for the b4328:
>
> http://www.burnthesorbonne.com/ndiswrapper/b.html
>
> --
> J
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 16:21:35 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:21:35 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <764218.47556.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <764218.47556.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907020921i91910cfib637436686f85f0a@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/1 Rajinder Yadav <devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>
> My quest as lead me down the path to also consider Ruby =)
>
> The website states:
>
> "The beauty of Ruby is found in its balance between simplicity and power." - Marc, yes it's a vague statement ;)
>
> More to the point the creator says this:
>
> Initially, Matz looked at other languages to find an ideal syntax. Recalling his search, he said, ?I wanted a scripting language that was more powerful than Perl, and more object-oriented than Python3.?
>
> Are there any Ruby fans?

This is somewhat OT, but the mention of Ruby reminded me of an article
I saw recently:

http://gmarceau.qc.ca/blog/2009/05/speed-size-and-dependability-of.html

It's an attempt to chart code size vs. speed of execution for various
languages.  Ironically a language most of us have barely heard of
(OCAML) produces the best-looking graph.  Ruby, Python, and Perl are
all off-the-charts slow (they're being compared to compiled languages)
but have very small code size.  Of course it's also dependent on
things like how well the author wrote the code ...

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 16:43:54 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:43:54 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <829928.14861.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1f13df280906300758l22874b98s2709881b5db66156@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A358F.5030201@utoronto.ca> <7c50d3570906300926t130848cct31fc16462843703c@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A5D7B.9040700@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301153g4d6a11a5v32b67d8c7a072718@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A677D.1000401@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090702164354.GK15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 03:34:11PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> I was with Rogers, and there was no TS going on, I could download from
> the torrent sites to my hearts content.  The only reason why I left is
> because almost every weekend my connection would drop off the face of
> the earth for about 2 to 3 days.  They even sent a tech at one point
> who stole from me when I was out of the room.

Rogers does traffic shape (and has for at least a couple of years),
although it would appear that they don't do it as agresively as Bell.

> So, how does this MLPPP thing work that I see people mentioning on
> here, do you get it with Teksavvy or is it something you have to do
> yourself?

As far as I understand it, Bell's traffic snooping box is too dumb to
analyze multilink ppp traffic.  It only works with normal ppp traffic,
which is what pppoe has normally been.  Hence since they can't analyze
the traffic, they can't shape it either.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 16:45:44 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:45:44 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570906301258n64548d31l8901ba209d35cdac-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <829928.14861.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1f13df280906300758l22874b98s2709881b5db66156@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A358F.5030201@utoronto.ca> <7c50d3570906300926t130848cct31fc16462843703c@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A5D7B.9040700@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301153g4d6a11a5v32b67d8c7a072718@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A677D.1000401@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A6D59.7080105@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301258n64548d31l8901ba209d35cdac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090702164544.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 03:58:22PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> I called Teksavvy before this email showed up, didn't know they had an
> 877 number, so I just paid long distance fees.  Anyeverhow....
> Teksavvy quoted me a price of around $80 to get MLPPP, they said I'd
> need a second phone line, etc.

That's if you want mlppp using two lines for double the bandwidth of a
single line.  You only need mlppp on a single line to work around bell's
traffic mess.

Teksavvy will do both things.  Two adsl links will of course cost twice
what one link costs.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 16:47:13 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:47:13 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <287115.87502.qm-JnPC7FIEsd35nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <287115.87502.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090702164712.GM15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 06:28:28PM -0700, E K wrote:
> It took them about a month to give me the 5Mpbs bandwidth they promised. I was connected at 3Mbps and getting 2.4Mbps for a month.

Probably more correct would be:

It took them a month to get Bell to provide 5Mbps service on your line.

Getting Bell to do anything, is quite a feat.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 16:48:54 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:48:54 -0400
Subject: why might debian install require constant pressing of
	ENTER?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907010352190.6391@localhost>
Message-ID: <20090702164854.GN15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 04:21:40AM -0400, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>   when installing debian 5.01 on one of my gateway mx7120 laptops,
> almost invariably, the install runs fine partway through all the SW
> install, then slows to a crawl for each package -- a situation i can
> rectify by simply holding down the ENTER key.
> 
>   i'm not doing anything unusual, and i'm just starting another test
> install thusly:
> 
>   - regular (non-graphical) install
>   - on the net
>   - LVM-based, full HD
>   - separate /home, /usr, /tmp, /tmp partitions
>   - filesystems created just fine
>   - base system currently unpacking and installing
>   - telling install that i have no more DVDs to insert, DVD 1
>     is all i think i need
> 
>   at this point, it may have started -- apt is claiming to be
> "scanning the mirror" but there is no net or DVD activity and it's
> been sitting there for over a minute.  press ENTER and ... activity!
> we've moved on to "configuring apt/please wait" and ... no motion
> again.  press ENTER and ... we're off again.
> 
>   what the crap is going on?  this is completely reproducible.  what
> is the debian install doing that requires user input to keep it moving
> forward?  should i have fed the install all 5 DVDs early on?  and this
> has happened on more than one of that model of laptop so i'm convinced
> it's not a single-system HW problem.  thoughts?

Sounds like a laptop with broken power management.

Booting without acpi or lapic or something might work around it.
Perhaps a bios upgrade would help (although the chances of one of those
from gateway are pretty slim).

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 16:53:25 2009
From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:53:25 -0400
Subject: using old mp3 players as bootable flash drives
Message-ID: <4A4CE605.6070007@tmis.ca>


Any reason you cannot use old mp3 players as usb bootable flash drives?

I know that not all flash drives can be made bootable (not sure what the 
bootable requirement is)
http://www.pendrivelinux.com/







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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 17:04:09 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 13:04:09 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <175305.22518.qm-LGZSB/hsMXIA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907021004p4c6c2319t20c942dccc6c2b24@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Rajinder Yadav<devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> I am considering investing some time learning a script language to automate stuff etc.
>
> Has anyone here used both/either perl and python?

I would tend to think that Bash is a preferable language for this purpose.

It's not the least bit object oriented, but I don't think that's
notably a downside.

Microsoft was pretty proud when they created Monad/PowerShell, a
"totally object oriented" scripting language with pretty much a
superset of the features of Bash and zsh, where you don't just get
"dumb streams of text," but rather streams of objects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_PowerShell

Unfortunately, passing around streams of objects has some really
significant downsides:

1.  Wildly more marshalling of data
2.  Wildly more object declarations

You have to redesign all of your tools that generate output to add in
object declarations to turn them into objects.

And you need to declare the inputs similarly whenever writing a
program accepting input.  A fair bit of that *might* be able to be
handled implicitly (ala the ML thing of polymorphic arguments),
*maybe*.

If you are filtering, then you need to be pretty explicit so that the
objects remain objects as streamed around.

I find I almost always find the "lowest common denominator of plain
text" a fine thing about shell scripting.

I used to write a fair bit of Perl; the last couple of years, I have
been mostly using Bash instead, and finding that preferable.  When
scripting, I usually don't want objects (e.g. - the "Monad mess").
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Princess Margaret  - "I have as much privacy as a goldfish in a bowl."
- http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/princess_margaret.html
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 17:31:45 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 13:31:45 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <20090702164544.GL15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <829928.14861.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A4A358F.5030201@utoronto.ca> 
	<7c50d3570906300926t130848cct31fc16462843703c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A4A5D7B.9040700@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301153g4d6a11a5v32b67d8c7a072718@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A4A677D.1000401@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A4A6D59.7080105@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301258n64548d31l8901ba209d35cdac@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090702164544.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907021031g18cb979br3fd34999cdf172c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:45, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> That's if you want mlppp using two lines for double the bandwidth of a
> single line. ?You only need mlppp on a single line to work around bell's
> traffic mess.
>
> Teksavvy will do both things. ?Two adsl links will of course cost twice
> what one link costs.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen

So, what's better, MLPPP on a single line or get dual lines and put it
on there, would dual lines give me faster speed?


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 17:59:20 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 13:59:20 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907021031g18cb979br3fd34999cdf172c1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4A358F.5030201@utoronto.ca> <7c50d3570906300926t130848cct31fc16462843703c@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A5D7B.9040700@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301153g4d6a11a5v32b67d8c7a072718@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A677D.1000401@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A6D59.7080105@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301258n64548d31l8901ba209d35cdac@mail.gmail.com> <20090702164544.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7c50d3570907021031g18cb979br3fd34999cdf172c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090702175920.GO15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 01:31:45PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:45, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > That's if you want mlppp using two lines for double the bandwidth of a
> > single line. ?You only need mlppp on a single line to work around bell's
> > traffic mess.
> >
> > Teksavvy will do both things. ?Two adsl links will of course cost twice
> > what one link costs.
> >
> > --
> > Len Sorensen
> 
> So, what's better, MLPPP on a single line or get dual lines and put it
> on there, would dual lines give me faster speed?

Sure, two lines with mlppp gives you twice the speed.  Twice the speed,
twice the bandwidth quota, all on a single IP.

Both should (currently) prevent bell from messing with the bandwidth.

Of course if you don't already have two land lines to the house, the
price is higher I would expect, given Bell charges a line rental fee
for ADSL lines on lines that don't have phone service on them.
Cheaper than paying for the service on the line, but not nothing.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 18:25:44 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:25:44 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <175305.22518.qm-LGZSB/hsMXIA0QRgWO9Mevu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090702182543.GP15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 12:41:12PM -0700, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> I am considering investing some time learning a script language to automate stuff etc.
> 
> Has anyone here used both/either perl and python? I would like to get their feel on which is better for writing powerful yet simple scripts? I am a C++ developer so I don't need to learn about programming, just want to know which of the two script is really easy to pick up and has all the module support I could ever need?
> 
> I assume python was designed to be object-oriented from the start and thus would lend to clean OO coding. Can python do everything perl can in terms of text manipulation and extraction?

Well I have used both, although mostly perl.  Given a choice I would
pick python, although I tend to use perl for small simple programs to
just do some quick text manipulation.  The python code turns out much
cleaner and more maintainable though, and is much more consistent in
syntax (something perl can never be described as).

If you want to be able to call c libraries from your scripts to do some
heavy lifting, python is much better than perl.  Perl may have cpan,
but python has much more interesting libraries and is easier and more
efficient at interfacing with libraries.

As for object oriented, I haven't tried that in python.  I use it as
a mostly functional language, although occationally procedural when
passing too many arguments gets ineffcient.  Of course I am not a fan
of OO at all.

Certainly python is perfectly capable of text extraction and such.
There may be a few things perl is easier to use for, although I suspect
most people don't even use some of those perl features anyhow, because
they are weird to figure out.

Python has nice list handling, and handles multi dimentional arrays very
well, something perl has always been a nightmare for.

-- 
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 18:27:43 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:27:43 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <20090701170952.6c48fffb@gravid>
References: <723433.75040.qm@web111212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20090701170952.6c48fffb@gravid>
Message-ID: <20090702182742.GQ15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 05:09:52PM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote:
> You know APT is coded in C++, right? Yum is coded in Python. If it's
> between Python and Perl, for this particular tool I'd recommend Perl. I
> could be slightly biased because I find Yum so darn slow. I don't know
> if that's because Python is slower than Perl in general, though I feel
> that might be true. 

I doubt that.  Remember poor yum has to deal with rpm's after all. :)

> By the way, what is your incentive for making yet another package
> manager (yapm?). If you have no good reason to reinvent the wheel, I
> suggest you consider using Zero Install:
> 
>   http://0install.net/
>   http://0install.net/matrix.html
> 
> I'm still waiting to hear of a distro that uses it as its main package
> manager :)

I will stick with debian myself.  At least until someone makes something
better, but no one seems to be even trying anymore.

-- 
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 18:35:47 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:35:47 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <20090701165753.528cbdce@gravid>
References: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20090701165753.528cbdce@gravid>
Message-ID: <20090702183547.GR15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 04:57:53PM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote:
> Python is still a high-level scripting language, but higher than Perl
> is. Python is more like Java, really. It is a full-fledged language in
> the sense that it comes with a standard library, enforces stronger
> syntax requirements, etc. etc. 

That's a mean thing to say about python.  Unlike java, python is actually
useful and doesn't make you go insane trying to run it on other systems,
and python has decent performance.

-- 
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 18:42:08 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:42:08 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907020921i91910cfib637436686f85f0a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <764218.47556.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1f13df280907020921i91910cfib637436686f85f0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090702184207.GS15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 12:21:35PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> 2009/7/1 Rajinder Yadav <devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
> >
> > My quest as lead me down the path to also consider Ruby =)
> >
> > The website states:
> >
> > "The beauty of Ruby is found in its balance between simplicity and power." - Marc, yes it's a vague statement ;)
> >
> > More to the point the creator says this:
> >
> > Initially, Matz looked at other languages to find an ideal syntax. Recalling his search, he said, ?I wanted a scripting language that was more powerful than Perl, and more object-oriented than Python3.?
> >
> > Are there any Ruby fans?
> 
> This is somewhat OT, but the mention of Ruby reminded me of an article
> I saw recently:
> 
> http://gmarceau.qc.ca/blog/2009/05/speed-size-and-dependability-of.html
> 
> It's an attempt to chart code size vs. speed of execution for various
> languages.  Ironically a language most of us have barely heard of
> (OCAML) produces the best-looking graph.  Ruby, Python, and Perl are
> all off-the-charts slow (they're being compared to compiled languages)
> but have very small code size.  Of course it's also dependent on
> things like how well the author wrote the code ...

OCAML (and ML in general) is a lovely language.  If I had any big project
to start, I would use that.  Too bad I haven't used it that much yet,
so I am not that used to the syntax yet.

Strong type checking, polymorphic functions, partial evaluation, lists
as a native type, etc.  Just lovely.  They might even have a decent OO
implementation, unlike C++ and java.  Haven't checked yet.

OCAML is often the language of choice (I think haskall is another
often seen) for programming competitions where execution speed and fast
development time for a team of developers matters.  java, c and c++ pretty
much never have a chance, being either way too slow, or way to difficult
to write bug free functional and maintainable code in under serious
time preasure.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 19:11:41 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:11:41 -0400
Subject: Semi OT: communication between telco networks
In-Reply-To: <54E24FC3-7AF1-4FA1-A123-F174602E2AB9-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <54E24FC3-7AF1-4FA1-A123-F174602E2AB9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090702191141.GT15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 08:27:34PM -0400, Aviss,Tyler wrote:
> Not Linux related, but interesting in a technical sense.
>
> I've often heard of ISPs coming to an impasse with pairing agreements,  
> and ceasing to route traffic for each other (resulting in "dead zones"  
> if IPs the clients can't connect to).
>
> Has anyone ever heard of routing issues with phones. President's choice 
> (and many others) use Bell for calls. My Pc card gives a "this call 
> cannot be completed as dialled" when calling a 778-890-xxxx (Fido/Prince 
> George) area phone. I talk to an operator, and from her landline she gets 
> the same message.
>
> I *know* the number is correct, one is my GF's (calling her while in  
> Toronto to finish my house sale, I moved) and one if mine.
>
> This isn't (a least not yet) a complaint about Bell/Fido/PC, but rather a 
> question of whether such things can or often do happen in phone-land. 
> Maybe they use VOIP and it doesn't recognize that extension, or some 
> other weirdness?
>
> Anyone know a company that uses Telus/Rogers/other for phone cards, or  
> someone other than PC that has a cheapie $5 Bell-network card for  
> testing.
>
> PC is supposed to email me when the learned more. Ironically, they  
> likely can't call my cell if their operators have the same issues  
> calling 777 :-)
>
> (sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

I have had cases on my Bell cell phone where I tried calling a friends
rogers cell phone and got a 'this number is not in service' message.
2 hours later it worked again.  I have heard of this happening a number
of times.  I have also managed to try calling my father from my cell
phone (which is now on rogers) at home, and have it essentially indicate
'number not in service' while calling the other line at the house worked
fine, and it worked again later that day.

It really seems that sometimes Bell and/or rogers manage to flag numbers
as not in service even though they have been in service for years and
still are, but on the other provider's network.

I think they are both incompetent.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 19:41:51 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:41:51 -0700
Subject: Semi OT: communication between telco networks
In-Reply-To: <20090702191141.GT15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <54E24FC3-7AF1-4FA1-A123-F174602E2AB9@gmail.com>
	 <20090702191141.GT15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907021241n2467bdbco10ff99b277ebee1f@mail.gmail.com>

It makes me worry somewhat for the future though. As we end up with
phone numbers strewn all over the places, and
dozens/hundreds/thousands of VOIP carriers picking up various phone
blocks, things will likely get rather confusion.

Who's in charge of keeping track of what number belongs to a certain
carrier? Previously, it used to be that you could tell by the first 7
digits, but with number portability you can't even tell what's a cell
or not anymore.


On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 08:27:34PM -0400, Aviss,Tyler wrote:
>> Not Linux related, but interesting in a technical sense.
>>
>> I've often heard of ISPs coming to an impasse with pairing agreements,
>> and ceasing to route traffic for each other (resulting in "dead zones"
>> if IPs the clients can't connect to).
>>
>> Has anyone ever heard of routing issues with phones. President's choice
>> (and many others) use Bell for calls. My Pc card gives a "this call
>> cannot be completed as dialled" when calling a 778-890-xxxx (Fido/Prince
>> George) area phone. I talk to an operator, and from her landline she gets
>> the same message.
>>
>> I *know* the number is correct, one is my GF's (calling her while in
>> Toronto to finish my house sale, I moved) and one if mine.
>>
>> This isn't (a least not yet) a complaint about Bell/Fido/PC, but rather a
>> question of whether such things can or often do happen in phone-land.
>> Maybe they use VOIP and it doesn't recognize that extension, or some
>> other weirdness?
>>
>> Anyone know a company that uses Telus/Rogers/other for phone cards, or
>> someone other than PC that has a cheapie $5 Bell-network card for
>> testing.
>>
>> PC is supposed to email me when the learned more. Ironically, they
>> likely can't call my cell if their operators have the same issues
>> calling 777 :-)
>>
>> (sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)
>
> I have had cases on my Bell cell phone where I tried calling a friends
> rogers cell phone and got a 'this number is not in service' message.
> 2 hours later it worked again. ?I have heard of this happening a number
> of times. ?I have also managed to try calling my father from my cell
> phone (which is now on rogers) at home, and have it essentially indicate
> 'number not in service' while calling the other line at the house worked
> fine, and it worked again later that day.
>
> It really seems that sometimes Bell and/or rogers manage to flag numbers
> as not in service even though they have been in service for years and
> still are, but on the other provider's network.
>
> I think they are both incompetent.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 19:42:58 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:42:58 -0700
Subject: using old mp3 players as bootable flash drives
In-Reply-To: <4A4CE605.6070007-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4CE605.6070007@tmis.ca>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907021242m3b876d07g72b96532a7adfb39@mail.gmail.com>

Along that vein, has anyone had good luck with making a bootable
Ubuntu drive? When I use the built-in option it makes a partition
table which cfdisk, etc can't recognize.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, teddy mills<teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Any reason you cannot use old mp3 players as usb bootable flash drives?
>
> I know that not all flash drives can be made bootable (not sure what the
> bootable requirement is)
> http://www.pendrivelinux.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 19:51:32 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:51:32 -0700
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com>

I've been looking at upgrading from my EEE700. The SSD is a bit
smallish at 4GB, and it seems that most of the bigger ones available
only work on the 900's and above from what I've been seeing online.
That, and the SSD's are almost half the price of a new unit.

Anyone know a machine along the lines of an EEE which still has SSD's
(the newer ones seem to be all HDD's again). As I lug my machine
around a fair bit, the impact-resistance and low consumption of the
SSD is somewhat preferable.

Optimal specs: something with an Atom CPU, 1024x600 screen, 16GB+ SSD,
wifi/cardreader/cam, and of course Linux-friendly drivers.

Ideas/suggestions?

-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 20:04:54 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 16:04:54 -0400
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 12:51:32PM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> I've been looking at upgrading from my EEE700. The SSD is a bit
> smallish at 4GB, and it seems that most of the bigger ones available
> only work on the 900's and above from what I've been seeing online.
> That, and the SSD's are almost half the price of a new unit.
> 
> Anyone know a machine along the lines of an EEE which still has SSD's
> (the newer ones seem to be all HDD's again). As I lug my machine
> around a fair bit, the impact-resistance and low consumption of the
> SSD is somewhat preferable.
> 
> Optimal specs: something with an Atom CPU, 1024x600 screen, 16GB+ SSD,
> wifi/cardreader/cam, and of course Linux-friendly drivers.
> 
> Ideas/suggestions?

I haven't seen one.  SSD's are still rather expensive unfortunately.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 20:06:49 2009
From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 20:06:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: How about creating / developing FOSS? Re: what is the  situation wrt. ideas created by employees while employed ? who owns them ?
References: <loom.20090629T192109-480@post.gmane.org> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0906301115000.4705@imac2006.local> <d6d6637f0906300905x75856269t6d4f884689e4b97b@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0906301206440.4705@imac2006.local> <d6d6637f0906300927r54d862beo6586ea6d3ba9683b@mail.gmail.com> <loom.20090630T183522-761@post.gmane.org> <20090630170536.9e0a064b.tleslie@tcn.net> <loom.20090630T215904-70@post.gmane.org> <6057C1D9-2E14-46AA-9EC0-77B805FA1E5B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20090702T200503-100@post.gmane.org>

Tyler, sorry, I do not have an answer for you, maybe some other forums can help
with that.

Thanks to all who responded, it has been a very useful discussion.

Peter

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From erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 20:19:26 2009
From: erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Erik (Caneris))
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 16:19:26 -0400
Subject: Semi OT: communication between telco networks
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907021241n2467bdbco10ff99b277ebee1f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <54E24FC3-7AF1-4FA1-A123-F174602E2AB9@gmail.com>
	 <20090702191141.GT15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>,<3a97ef0907021241n2467bdbco10ff99b277ebee1f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9743@klsapp1.klssys.com>

Tyler Aviss wrote:
> It makes me worry somewhat for the future though. As we end up with
> phone numbers strewn all over the places, and
> dozens/hundreds/thousands of VOIP carriers picking up various phone
> blocks, things will likely get rather confusion.
> 
Very few of these "dozens/hundreds/thousands of VOIP" "carriers" are in fact "carriers" or LECs. 

> Who's in charge of keeping track of what number belongs to a certain
> carrier? Previously, it used to be that you could tell by the first 7
> digits, but with number portability you can't even tell what's a cell
> or not anymore.
> 
NPAC. You can't tell by the NPA-NXX anymore, but those of us who can query LRNs can :)

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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  2 22:43:27 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:43:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: GNU Tool-Chain
Message-ID: <440764.69940.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


I will have to check it out if I can find one if the book store, someone mentioned in the comment section that it is a lot like LSF.

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Shakthi Kannan <askshakthimaan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> From: Shakthi Kannan <askshakthimaan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: GNU Tool-Chain
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Received: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 12:04 AM
> Hi,
> 
> --- On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Rajinder Yadav<devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
> | If I wanted to learn more about what types of build tools
> are
> available and what they do as well as how to use them, is
> there any
> | good sources or books available that discuss them
> hopefully in some detail?
> \--
> 
> Karim Yaghmour. 2003. Building Embedded Linux Systems.
> O'Reilly.
> http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596002220/
> 
> SK
> 
> -- 
> Shakthi Kannan
> http://www.shakthimaan.com
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ?
> Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80
> columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


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From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul  3 05:01:28 2009
From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:01:28 -0400
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <20090702200454.GU15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com> <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4A4D90A8.4050009@ss.org>

The Acer Aspire One has all your looking for but with only a 8gig SSD 
and linux already installed.
There has been a hardware revision since I bought mine 8 months ago, so 
there might be one with a larger SSD.

I've lugged mine around a lot too and it holds up, plus it has a second 
SD slot for storage expansion and one the better keyboards out there.

?2

--
Scott Sullivan

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 12:51:32PM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
>   
>> I've been looking at upgrading from my EEE700. The SSD is a bit
>> smallish at 4GB, and it seems that most of the bigger ones available
>> only work on the 900's and above from what I've been seeing online.
>> That, and the SSD's are almost half the price of a new unit.
>>
>> Anyone know a machine along the lines of an EEE which still has SSD's
>> (the newer ones seem to be all HDD's again). As I lug my machine
>> around a fair bit, the impact-resistance and low consumption of the
>> SSD is somewhat preferable.
>>
>> Optimal specs: something with an Atom CPU, 1024x600 screen, 16GB+ SSD,
>> wifi/cardreader/cam, and of course Linux-friendly drivers.
>>
>> Ideas/suggestions?
>>     
>
> I haven't seen one.  SSD's are still rather expensive unfortunately.
>
>   
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul  3 07:39:57 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 03:39:57 -0400
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <4A4D90A8.4050009-lxSQFCZeNF4@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A4D90A8.4050009@ss.org>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1@mail.gmail.com>

The second SD slot sounds like a nice feature. How do you find the
battery life on that one?

Another I noticed today is the Dell mini 9 or mini 10, which seem to
have some flavor of ubuntu installed.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Scott Sullivan<scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> The Acer Aspire One has all your looking for but with only a 8gig SSD and
> linux already installed.
> There has been a hardware revision since I bought mine 8 months ago, so
> there might be one with a larger SSD.
>
> I've lugged mine around a lot too and it holds up, plus it has a second SD
> slot for storage expansion and one the better keyboards out there.
>
> ?2
>
> --
> Scott Sullivan
>
> Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 12:51:32PM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I've been looking at upgrading from my EEE700. The SSD is a bit
>>> smallish at 4GB, and it seems that most of the bigger ones available
>>> only work on the 900's and above from what I've been seeing online.
>>> That, and the SSD's are almost half the price of a new unit.
>>>
>>> Anyone know a machine along the lines of an EEE which still has SSD's
>>> (the newer ones seem to be all HDD's again). As I lug my machine
>>> around a fair bit, the impact-resistance and low consumption of the
>>> SSD is somewhat preferable.
>>>
>>> Optimal specs: something with an Atom CPU, 1024x600 screen, 16GB+ SSD,
>>> wifi/cardreader/cam, and of course Linux-friendly drivers.
>>>
>>> Ideas/suggestions?
>>>
>>
>> I haven't seen one. ?SSD's are still rather expensive unfortunately.
>>
>>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul  3 14:24:27 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 10:24:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com>  <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A4D90A8.4050009@ss.org> <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907031010460.4607@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Tyler Aviss <tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

|  How do you find the
| battery life on that one?

If you care about battery life, there are a couple of things to know.

Most netbooks come with 3-cell batteries.  An extra-cost option is a
6-cell battery, doubling the battery life.

There seeem to be some newer Asus netbooks that claim very long run
times: 8.5 to 10.5 hours, if I remember.  I don't know how they do
this (LED backlights?  more cells? new battery chemistry?).  I think
they have model suffixes like HA or HE.

The next Intel chipset should make a significant difference on power
usage.

| Another I noticed today is the Dell mini 9 or mini 10, which seem to
| have some flavor of ubuntu installed.

The Dell Mini 9 is discontinued.  To bad: it had no rotating
machinery!  No fan, no disk.

The Mini 10v is logically similar (looks the same to software -- same
peripheral chips) but it does have a fan and may only come with a hard
disk.

The normal Mini 10 (not 10v) comes with GMA 500 video.  Horrible for
Linux since the open source drivers are really really bad news.
http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/01/30/intel-gma-500-poulsbo-graphics-on-linux-a-precise-and-comprehensive-summary-as-to-why-youre-screwed/


I don't have a netbook.  On paper, I like the size of the eepc 700 but
newer netbooks are all 9" and more.  What you would know, and I don't,
is how the physical tradeoffs "feel".
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul  3 14:35:16 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 10:35:16 -0400
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com> <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A4D90A8.4050009@ss.org> <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090703143516.GV15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jul 03, 2009 at 03:39:57AM -0400, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> The second SD slot sounds like a nice feature. How do you find the
> battery life on that one?
> 
> Another I noticed today is the Dell mini 9 or mini 10, which seem to
> have some flavor of ubuntu installed.

Apparently the mini 10 requires a pile of binary only drivers, and hence
is running a hacked up job of ubuntu, and does not work if you try to
install anything else without a lot of work getting those binary only
drivers to run.  It apparently uses the new intel chip that they made
using a bought graphics core rather than using their own.  Linux support
is hence awful at this time.

Oh, and it's a Dell computer, so well, no thanks.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul  3 14:40:38 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 10:40:38 -0400
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907031010460.4607-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com> <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A4D90A8.4050009@ss.org> <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907031010460.4607@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20090703144037.GW15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jul 03, 2009 at 10:24:27AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> If you care about battery life, there are a couple of things to know.
> 
> Most netbooks come with 3-cell batteries.  An extra-cost option is a
> 6-cell battery, doubling the battery life.
> 
> There seeem to be some newer Asus netbooks that claim very long run
> times: 8.5 to 10.5 hours, if I remember.  I don't know how they do
> this (LED backlights?  more cells? new battery chemistry?).  I think
> they have model suffixes like HA or HE.

The 1000HA does have a very long battery life.  It has a 6 cell battery,
and does just about everything they can to be energy efficient.
My parents-in-law bought one, and so far they are finding that the
battery life is pretty close to what was promised.

My wife's 1008 with a 3 cell internal battery probably does 4 to 5 hours,
which is quite reasonable.  The 1008 takes no space at all in a bag.

> The next Intel chipset should make a significant difference on power
> usage.

Well, it couldn't be much worse. :)

> The Dell Mini 9 is discontinued.  To bad: it had no rotating
> machinery!  No fan, no disk.
> 
> The Mini 10v is logically similar (looks the same to software -- same
> peripheral chips) but it does have a fan and may only come with a hard
> disk.
> 
> The normal Mini 10 (not 10v) comes with GMA 500 video.  Horrible for
> Linux since the open source drivers are really really bad news.
> http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/01/30/intel-gma-500-poulsbo-graphics-on-linux-a-precise-and-comprehensive-summary-as-to-why-youre-screwed/
> 
> I don't have a netbook.  On paper, I like the size of the eepc 700 but
> newer netbooks are all 9" and more.  What you would know, and I don't,
> is how the physical tradeoffs "feel".

Most people find the 7 and 9" are imposible to actually type on.  You can
poke out text, but not type.  The 10" are possible to type on reasonably
well, unless you have huge fingers.

Also the 7" with the 800x480 resolution just doesn't give any space for
anything.  At least 1024x600 is a lot better, which is what the 9 and 10"
seem to have in general, except Dell that thought 1024x576 was sufficient,
never mind the fact that XP always had a minimum requirement of 800x600
listed.  Not sure where Dell got that odd ball screen that no one else
ever used.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul  3 23:11:38 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:11:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Perl or Python?
Message-ID: <733362.13034.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Dare I say this but Ruby is a fun language. I had a chance to kick it around and I'm hooked. If I have to learn one script language, this would be it.

You can pretty much do anything the other procedural scripts can do. I've read it is much easier to hook/interface with C code to do the heavy lift, much so than with Python.

There are a few keywords which I wish they had borrowed rather than try to be different. I have tired a few times to get rolling with perl, but it never grabbed me.

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense at csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

> From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbsgBhcjK8J40g at public.gmane.orgo.ca>
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Perl or Python?
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Received: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 2:25 PM
> On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 12:41:12PM
> -0700, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> > I am considering investing some time learning a script
> language to automate stuff etc.
> > 
> > Has anyone here used both/either perl and python? I
> would like to get their feel on which is better for writing
> powerful yet simple scripts? I am a C++ developer so I don't
> need to learn about programming, just want to know which of
> the two script is really easy to pick up and has all the
> module support I could ever need?
> > 
> > I assume python was designed to be object-oriented
> from the start and thus would lend to clean OO coding. Can
> python do everything perl can in terms of text manipulation
> and extraction?
> 
> Well I have used both, although mostly perl.? Given a
> choice I would
> pick python, although I tend to use perl for small simple
> programs to
> just do some quick text manipulation.? The python code
> turns out much
> cleaner and more maintainable though, and is much more
> consistent in
> syntax (something perl can never be described as).
> 
> If you want to be able to call c libraries from your
> scripts to do some
> heavy lifting, python is much better than perl.? Perl
> may have cpan,
> but python has much more interesting libraries and is
> easier and more
> efficient at interfacing with libraries.
> 
> As for object oriented, I haven't tried that in
> python.? I use it as
> a mostly functional language, although occationally
> procedural when
> passing too many arguments gets ineffcient.? Of course
> I am not a fan
> of OO at all.
> 
> Certainly python is perfectly capable of text extraction
> and such.
> There may be a few things perl is easier to use for,
> although I suspect
> most people don't even use some of those perl features
> anyhow, because
> they are weird to figure out.
> 
> Python has nice list handling, and handles multi
> dimentional arrays very
> well, something perl has always been a nightmare for.
> 
> -- 
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ?
> Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80
> columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


      __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul  4 02:03:02 2009
From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:03:02 -0400
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com>	 <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A4D90A8.4050009@ss.org> <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A4EB856.2010309@ss.org>



Tyler Aviss wrote:
> The second SD slot sounds like a nice feature. How do you find the
> battery life on that one?
>   
I find it to be good enough, but it I could go back, I'd pay the extra 
for the 6-cell battery like other commenter's have suggested.  Also I'd 
like the point out that the keyboard really does make a difference! Go 
into the stores and Try them out, Really.
> Another I noticed today is the Dell mini 9 or mini 10, which seem to
> have some flavor of ubuntu installed.
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Scott Sullivan<scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>   
>> The Acer Aspire One has all your looking for but with only a 8gig SSD and
>> linux already installed.
>> There has been a hardware revision since I bought mine 8 months ago, so
>> there might be one with a larger SSD.
>>
>> I've lugged mine around a lot too and it holds up, plus it has a second SD
>> slot for storage expansion and one the better keyboards out there.
>>
>> ?2
>>
>> --
>> Scott Sullivan
>>
>> Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>>     
>>> On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 12:51:32PM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> I've been looking at upgrading from my EEE700. 
>>>>         
[Snip]
--
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul  4 18:40:05 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 11:40:05 -0700
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <20090703144037.GW15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com> <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A4D90A8.4050009@ss.org> <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907031010460.4607@redclaw.mimosa.com> <20090703144037.GW15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <7C722EE6-64CC-47F4-8D77-FA83600EE745@gmail.com>

I actually do already have an EEE701. Battery life is good and even  
the keyboard is ok for me, but as you mentioned the screen resolution  
is rather annoying. Since my GF is going on holidays I was thinking on  
upgrading and giving her the 701.

I've been looking at the 1000 series but wasn't sure if they can come  
with SSDs (only seen 700-900 series with those) or i'd they're still  
Linux-friendly as all the ones I see are now windows preloads.

I'd actually be happy to have a windows license for use in virtualbox,  
and load eeebuntu myself (which is awesome even on the 700) as long as  
the hardware supports it

(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 3-Jul-09, at 7:40 AM, lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart  
Sorensen) wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 03, 2009 at 10:24:27AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
>> If you care about battery life, there are a couple of things to know.
>>
>> Most netbooks come with 3-cell batteries.  An extra-cost option is a
>> 6-cell battery, doubling the battery life.
>>
>> There seeem to be some newer Asus netbooks that claim very long run
>> times: 8.5 to 10.5 hours, if I remember.  I don't know how they do
>> this (LED backlights?  more cells? new battery chemistry?).  I think
>> they have model suffixes like HA or HE.
>
> The 1000HA does have a very long battery life.  It has a 6 cell  
> battery,
> and does just about everything they can to be energy efficient.
> My parents-in-law bought one, and so far they are finding that the
> battery life is pretty close to what was promised.
>
> My wife's 1008 with a 3 cell internal battery probably does 4 to 5  
> hours,
> which is quite reasonable.  The 1008 takes no space at all in a bag.
>
>> The next Intel chipset should make a significant difference on power
>> usage.
>
> Well, it couldn't be much worse. :)
>
>> The Dell Mini 9 is discontinued.  To bad: it had no rotating
>> machinery!  No fan, no disk.
>>
>> The Mini 10v is logically similar (looks the same to software -- same
>> peripheral chips) but it does have a fan and may only come with a  
>> hard
>> disk.
>>
>> The normal Mini 10 (not 10v) comes with GMA 500 video.  Horrible for
>> Linux since the open source drivers are really really bad news.
>> http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/01/30/intel-gma-500-poulsbo-graphics-on-linux-a-precise-and-comprehensive-summary-as-to-why-youre-screwed/
>>
>> I don't have a netbook.  On paper, I like the size of the eepc 700  
>> but
>> newer netbooks are all 9" and more.  What you would know, and I  
>> don't,
>> is how the physical tradeoffs "feel".
>
> Most people find the 7 and 9" are imposible to actually type on.   
> You can
> poke out text, but not type.  The 10" are possible to type on  
> reasonably
> well, unless you have huge fingers.
>
> Also the 7" with the 800x480 resolution just doesn't give any space  
> for
> anything.  At least 1024x600 is a lot better, which is what the 9  
> and 10"
> seem to have in general, except Dell that thought 1024x576 was  
> sufficient,
> never mind the fact that XP always had a minimum requirement of  
> 800x600
> listed.  Not sure where Dell got that odd ball screen that no one else
> ever used.
>
> -- 
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul  4 14:28:12 2009
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:28:12 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <733362.13034.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <733362.13034.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1246717692.29734.11.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>

On Fri, 2009-07-03 at 16:11 -0700, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> Dare I say this but Ruby is a fun language. I had a chance to kick it around and I'm hooked. If I have to learn one script language, this would be it.
> 
> You can pretty much do anything the other procedural scripts can do. I've read it is much easier to hook/interface with C code to do the heavy lift, much so than with Python.
> 
> There are a few keywords which I wish they had borrowed rather than try to be different. I have tired a few times to get rolling with perl, but it never grabbed me.

Try a 'hello world!' program in each of them.  If you can't decide then,
grab pictures of a camel, snake and Jewel and put them up on a dart
board.

At the level of programming prowess that I recall the original poster
mentioning, any language will do.  And no one will be able to guess
which one he'll enjoy best.

Regards,
--matt

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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul  4 22:02:03 2009
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:02:03 -0400
Subject: Recommendations Please: Music Player and Library Manager
Message-ID: <4A4FD15B.5010706@rogers.com>

I have been using Rhythmbox. It is fine, but if there is something 
better I would like to hear what people recommend.

I have a Linux (Ubuntu) server, and I want to put all my CD music on it. 
I record as lossless flac format.

I have two PS3's on my network, also running Ubuntu. I want them to 
access music files on the server.

Google gave me thousands of hits, but focusing on iPod or MP3 servers.

So, any advice?

Thanks
Stephen
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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul  4 22:15:07 2009
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:15:07 -0400
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <7C722EE6-64CC-47F4-8D77-FA83600EE745-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com> <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A4D90A8.4050009@ss.org> <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907031010460.4607@redclaw.mimosa.com> <20090703144037.GW15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7C722EE6-64CC-47F4-8D77-FA83600EE745@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090704221507.GA22082@watson-wilon.ca>

On Sat, Jul 04, 2009 at 11:40:05AM -0700, Aviss,Tyler wrote:
> I've been looking at the 1000 series but wasn't sure if they can come  
> with SSDs (only seen 700-900 series with those) or i'd they're still  
> Linux-friendly as all the ones I see are now windows preloads.

Some 1000's have SSDs.  I have one.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul  4 22:52:48 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:52:48 -0400
Subject: OT: Unravelling the Canadian Copyright Policy Laundering Strategy
Message-ID: <4A4FDD40.7030700@teksavvy.com>

"...This lengthy post seeks to unravel the effort further by 
demonstrating how there has been a clear strategy of deploying seemingly 
independent organizations to advance the same goals, claims, arguments, 
and recommendations.  Over the past three years, this strategy has 
played out with multiple reports, each building on the next with a 
steady stream of self-citation..."

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4079/125/

Meng
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From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul  4 23:41:10 2009
From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:41:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: cross-platform GUI mail client that support maildir?
In-Reply-To: <4A4A6513.9070701-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0906300954250.4705@imac2006.local> <7c50d3570906300954t2e78eabegb59516f0a70e2f5a@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0906301504520.4705@imac2006.local> <4A4A6513.9070701@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907041939210.10839@imac2006.local>

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
> By the way, KMail supports local maildir and allegedly runs on 
> Windows.

BTW, what KDE package that contain KMail? I tried to install KDE 
for Windows 4.2.3 and cannot seem to find KMail. :-(

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   /___  /___/ /___/ /___      http://www.arifsaha.com/
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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 00:56:43 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 17:56:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: LFS
Message-ID: <426436.3973.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Has anyone here built their own LFS system?

I've started down this exciting road today and currently waiting for GCC to finish building =) ... I am deviating from the book slightly and picking up the latest packages where it makes sense. So far it seems pretty smooth sailing and I can't wait to get to the stage when I bootstrap the system after compiling a new kernel.

I wonder if there is a local LFS user group?

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 01:54:36 2009
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:54:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: LFS
In-Reply-To: <426436.3973.qm-LGZSB/hsMXJeqboJWQvT7/u2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <426436.3973.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LMD.2.00.0907042149480.3961@doublethink>

On Sat, 4 Jul 2009, Rajinder Yadav wrote:

> 
> Has anyone here built their own LFS system?
> 
> I've started down this exciting road today and currently waiting for GCC to finish building =) ... I am deviating from the book slightly and picking up the latest packages where it makes sense. So far it seems pretty smooth sailing and I can't wait to get to the stage when I bootstrap the system after compiling a new kernel.
> 
> I wonder if there is a local LFS user group?

   Gerard Beekmans, the author of the original LFS book lives in
   Toronto (at least he did a few years ago, having just moved here
   from Holland). He came to a party I gave some years ago (2001, I
   think). I had just built my LFS system and had been active on the
   mailing list.

   See <http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/6283>.

-- 
   Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster         <http://woodbine-gerrard.com>
   ===================================================================
   Author:
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 03:03:58 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: LFS
Message-ID: <413156.21424.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Hi Chris,

that was a most interesting article and to think Gerard Beekman built a system from scratch at such a young age. Thanks for sharing, would be nice to meet him for kicks =)

Personally, I am impressed with his work of putting together LFS, but there are some unclear things in the book or assumptions made about the reader.

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


--- On Sat, 7/4/09, Chris F.A. Johnson <cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> From: Chris F.A. Johnson <cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org>
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: LFS
> To: "[TLUG]" <tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org>
> Received: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 9:54 PM
> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009, Rajinder Yadav
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Has anyone here built their own LFS system?
> > 
> > I've started down this exciting road today and
> currently waiting for GCC to finish building =) ... I am
> deviating from the book slightly and picking up the latest
> packages where it makes sense. So far it seems pretty smooth
> sailing and I can't wait to get to the stage when I
> bootstrap the system after compiling a new kernel.
> > 
> > I wonder if there is a local LFS user group?
> 
> ???Gerard Beekmans, the author of the
> original LFS book lives in
> ???Toronto (at least he did a few years ago,
> having just moved here
> ???from Holland). He came to a party I gave
> some years ago (2001, I
> ???think). I had just built my LFS system
> and had been active on the
> ???mailing list.
> 
> ???See <http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/6283>.
> 
> -- 
> ???Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster?
> ? ? ???<http://woodbine-gerrard.com>
> ???===================================================================
> ???Author:
> ???Shell Scripting Recipes: A
> Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ?
> Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80
> columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


      __________________________________________________________________
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 08:29:29 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 04:29:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FYI: Fire at 151 Front St Data Centre
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907050423340.6362@castor.opentrend.net>

Hi all.  Peer1 reported a fire at their DC at 151 Front St.  Reports have 
varied about which floors were impacted.

http://forums.peer1.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=117

Rob

-- 
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 12:17:50 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:17:50 -0400
Subject: FYI: Fire at 151 Front St Data Centre
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907050423340.6362-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907050423340.6362@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <4A5099EE.3030509@rogers.com>

Robert Brockway wrote:
> Hi all.  Peer1 reported a fire at their DC at 151 Front St.  Reports
> have varied about which floors were impacted.
>
> http://forums.peer1.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=117
>
> Rob
>
Hmmm...  Air Canada used to have part of their reservation system on the
7th floor and the 8th floor was CN Telecommunincations/CNCP
Telecommunications engineering, before the HQ moved out to Bloor &
Islington.  Prior to Air Canada, the 7th floor was the CNT/CNCP regional
HQ.  Air Canada also had the 6th floor.  Later, after they moved out,
those floors were used for various telecom resellers.  Cable & Wireless
was on the 6th floor, IIRC.

I worked in that building for many years.  I used to have the corner
office at the east end of the 5th floor, overlooking Front St.




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From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 16:11:52 2009
From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:11:52 -0400
Subject: Recommendations Please: Music Player and Library Manager
In-Reply-To: <4A4FD15B.5010706-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4FD15B.5010706@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4A50D0C8.7030906@linuxcaffe.ca>

Stephen wrote:
> I have been using Rhythmbox. It is fine, but if there is something 
> better I would like to hear what people recommend.
> So, any advice?
mpd + favorite client(s)
djp
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From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 18:44:07 2009
From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:44:07 -0400
Subject: Recommendations Please: Music Player and Library
 Manager
In-Reply-To: <4A50D0C8.7030906-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4FD15B.5010706@rogers.com>
	<4A50D0C8.7030906@linuxcaffe.ca>
Message-ID: <20090705144407.b5a5bad4.tleslie@tcn.net>

ubuntu is thinking of replacing RB with banshee,
i still use amarok (even thou i love mono),
but banshee has a lot of resources behind it,
and is really getting better and better quickly,
if ubuntu doesnt put  banshee in as the default for their next release,
it will probably be the release after that.
I am getting close to switching to Banshee, just not in any rush,
but eventually I will , as it just has too much momentum to be ignored.


-tl

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:11:52 -0400
David J Patrick <djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Stephen wrote:
> > I have been using Rhythmbox. It is fine, but if there is something 
> > better I would like to hear what people recommend.
> > So, any advice?
> mpd + favorite client(s)
> djp
> --
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> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


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From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 20:34:15 2009
From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 16:34:15 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <20090702183547.GR15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20090701165753.528cbdce@gravid>
	<20090702183547.GR15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20090705163415.135cb632@gravid>

On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:35:47 -0400
lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 04:57:53PM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote:
> > Python is still a high-level scripting language, but higher than
> > Perl is. Python is more like Java, really. It is a full-fledged
> > language in the sense that it comes with a standard library,
> > enforces stronger syntax requirements, etc. etc. 
> 
> That's a mean thing to say about python.  Unlike java, python is
> actually useful and doesn't make you go insane trying to run it on
> other systems, and python has decent performance.
> 

You're going to have to do a fair bit of convincing to get anyone to
believe you that "Java is not useful". Specifically, oh, say 20% (the
highest proportion) of the programmers out there [1]. 

It's very hard to make a general comparison on performance between these
two languages; it depends on the specific task at hand, the
JVM/Python interpreter implementation, and the specific system.
There's wayyyy too much variance. If you could point to scientific
evidence, I would be inclined to look into it. I doubt anybody would
ever spend effort on that, though, because /that/ is useless -- if
anybody ever has to make the Python vs. Java decision, it will depend
highly on what they're using the language for. 

[1] http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Marc

-- 
Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a
completely unintentional side effect.
  -- Linus Torvalds
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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 21:39:48 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SeLinux again has system hardening
Message-ID: <790920.32681.qm@web111209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


OK it seems like I need to learn a bit more about Security Enhanced Linux from a system/package maintainer point of view.

In particular how to harden software packages at build cycles? Since I am building a Linux system using LFS, I ma wondering if there is a good book that will explain to me how I can go about building a harden Linux system.

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 21:43:21 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:43:21 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <20090702175920.GO15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4A358F.5030201@utoronto.ca> <4A4A5D7B.9040700@teksavvy.com> 
	<7c50d3570906301153g4d6a11a5v32b67d8c7a072718@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A4A677D.1000401@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A4A6D59.7080105@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301258n64548d31l8901ba209d35cdac@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090702164544.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7c50d3570907021031g18cb979br3fd34999cdf172c1@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090702175920.GO15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907051443g4f73a828y7096996b7580b1b8@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 13:59, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Sure, two lines with mlppp gives you twice the speed. ?Twice the speed,
> twice the bandwidth quota, all on a single IP.
>
> Both should (currently) prevent bell from messing with the bandwidth.
>
> Of course if you don't already have two land lines to the house, the
> price is higher I would expect, given Bell charges a line rental fee
> for ADSL lines on lines that don't have phone service on them.
> Cheaper than paying for the service on the line, but not nothing.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen


So, then I can get MLPPP on a single DSL line...?


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
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From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 22:16:32 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 15:16:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Perl or Python?
Message-ID: <189134.33415.qm@web111208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


--- On Sun, 7/5/09, Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> From: Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org>
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Perl or Python?
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Received: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 4:34 PM
> On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:35:47 -0400
> lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org
> (Lennart Sorensen) wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 04:57:53PM -0400, Marc Lanctot
> wrote:
> > > Python is still a high-level scripting language,
> but higher than
> > > Perl is. Python is more like Java, really. It is
> a full-fledged
> > > language in the sense that it comes with a
> standard library,
> > > enforces stronger syntax requirements, etc. etc..
> 
> > 
> > That's a mean thing to say about python.? Unlike
> java, python is
> > actually useful and doesn't make you go insane trying
> to run it on
> > other systems, and python has decent performance.
> > 
> 
> You're going to have to do a fair bit of convincing to get
> anyone to
> believe you that "Java is not useful". Specifically, oh,
> say 20% (the
> highest proportion) of the programmers out there [1]. 
> 
> It's very hard to make a general comparison on performance
> between these
> two languages; it depends on the specific task at hand,
> the
> JVM/Python interpreter implementation, and the specific
> system.
> There's wayyyy too much variance. If you could point to
> scientific
> evidence, I would be inclined to look into it. I doubt
> anybody would
> ever spend effort on that, though, because /that/ is
> useless -- if
> anybody ever has to make the Python vs. Java decision, it
> will depend
> highly on what they're using the language for. 
> 
> [1] http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
> 
> Marc
> 
> -- 

And I thought there was only bad blood between C++ and Java developers ;)

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


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From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 22:34:48 2009
From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:34:48 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907051443g4f73a828y7096996b7580b1b8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4A5D7B.9040700@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301153g4d6a11a5v32b67d8c7a072718@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A677D.1000401@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A6D59.7080105@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301258n64548d31l8901ba209d35cdac@mail.gmail.com> <20090702164544.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7c50d3570907021031g18cb979br3fd34999cdf172c1@mail.gmail.com> <20090702175920.GO15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7c50d3570907051443g4f73a828y7096996b7580b1b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090705223448.GA8676@watson-wilon.ca>

On Sun, Jul 05, 2009 at 05:43:21PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
>So, then I can get MLPPP on a single DSL line...?

Yes.  I believe that this is possible.

-- 
Neil Watson
Linux/UNIX Consultant
http://watson-wilson.ca
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 22:40:16 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:40:16 -0400
Subject: CRTC to look at how Internet traffic is managed
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907051540l5e8ff7e9vfdd08277fed2d810@mail.gmail.com>

>From an article on CTV.ca:

MONTREAL -- How Internet service providers deal with thousands of
customers using their networks will come under scrutiny by the CRTC
starting this week with public hearings on their policies to manage or
shape the flow of user traffic.

The CRTC hearings will look at Internet traffic management practices
by service providers. Among ISPs testifying are Bell (TSX:BCE), Rogers
Communications (TSX:RCI,B), Telus (TSX:T) and Quebecor (TSX:QBR.B)

Independent Internet service providers say they are being penalized by
practices to limit some traffic.

"I have no way to change that experience," said Tom Copeland, head of
the Canadian Association of Internet Providers.

"It's out of my control," said Copeland, who provides Internet service
to about 3,500 customers on Eagle.ca. in Cobourg, Ont. He buys
wholesale Internet services from Bell.

The CRTC sided with Bell in a ruling last fall that stated the
telecommunications company was within its right to regulate the flow
of traffic on its network, but the commission agreed to hearings on
the issue.

Copeland's association filed a complaint in April 2008 saying that
Bell's attempts to regulate who has access to the Internet at peak
hours was an attempt to stifle competition and made it almost
impossible for its members to properly manage the services they
provide.

"It's hard to imagine that Bell's entire network across Ontario and
Quebec is consistently burdened between 4:30 p.m. and 2 a.m. seven
days a week, 365 days a year," Copeland said.

But, Bell successfully argued it was necessary to limit some traffic
because a relatively small number of users using peer-to-peer
networking were taking up more than half of the network's capacity,
slowing service for regular customers.

Copeland would like those who are using too much bandwidth and slowing
speeds for other customers to be dealt with individually.

"We don't target a class of people or a class or applications just
because we have a few rogues on the network who are abusing the
privilege."

Bell's Mirko Bibic, senior vice-president of regulatory and government
affairs, said the hearings are about traffic management and not net
neutrality.

"Those who claim that these practices violate so-called net neutrality
principles are being alarmist, can't point to any specific harm, and
are taking positions that ignore the realities associated with
building networks and operating them efficiently to ensure the best
possible customer experience," Bibic said.

Bibic noted the CRTC has said that Bell's traffic management practices
are appropriate and expects that to continue to be the case.

Bell Canada is scheduled to appear before the CRTC on July 13.

Analyst Iain Grant said owners of the networks must be allowed to
manage Internet traffic for the majority of their users.

"That principal is true in traffic on our streets, it's true in
traffic on our skies and I think it has to be true along the pipelines
that are the flow of information," said Grant of the SeaBord Group, a
technology research and consulting firm.

The Internet isn't "some romantic notion" and businesses are making
decisions to invest in their networks, Grant said.

Search engine giant Google will also be making a presentation at the
CRTC hearing as part of the Open Internet Coalition, which also
includes Amazon, Skype and eBay.

Lawyer Jabob Glick said the coalition doesn't want traffic management
that would restrict or affect software applications, noting that the
file sharing application BitTorrent has been targeted.

Glick said the coalition believes targeting applications would affect
innovation online and that pricing could help manage Internet traffic.

"We think the ISPs (Internet service providers) should have
flexibility in charging different kinds of amounts for different kinds
of usage," said Glick, Canadian policy counsel for Google Inc.

Rogers Communications said it wants an open Internet with few restrictions.

Traffic isn't shaped when a Rogers customer downloads a file or a
video, said Ken Engelhart, senior vice-president of regulatory.

"We give complete access to any content you want," Engelhart said.

But he said peer-to-peer file sharing applications that "swamp" the
network are managed, he said.


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090705/crtc_internet_090705/20090705?hub=SciTech

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 22:42:00 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:42:00 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <20090705223448.GA8676-8agRmHhQ+n0LFV1hc+Bozg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4A5D7B.9040700@teksavvy.com> <4A4A677D.1000401@teksavvy.com> 
	<7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A4A6D59.7080105@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301258n64548d31l8901ba209d35cdac@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090702164544.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7c50d3570907021031g18cb979br3fd34999cdf172c1@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090702175920.GO15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7c50d3570907051443g4f73a828y7096996b7580b1b8@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090705223448.GA8676@watson-wilon.ca>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907051542g7dc629ebrfdf44593531080d9@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 18:34, Neil Watson<tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 05, 2009 at 05:43:21PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
>>
>> So, then I can get MLPPP on a single DSL line...?
>
> Yes. ?I believe that this is possible.
>
> --
> Neil Watson
> Linux/UNIX Consultant
> http://watson-wilson.ca
> --

Anyone else know if it's possible, if I must I'll get a second line,
but if I don't need to....


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul  5 23:39:52 2009
From: devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 16:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CRTC to look at how Internet traffic is managed
Message-ID: <172933.62712.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


I find the following statement perplexing, which is it? Rogers wants to sound like the good guy in all this traffic shaping =)

>>Traffic isn't shaped when a Rogers customer downloads a file or a
>>video, said Ken Engelhart, senior vice-president of regulatory.
>>
>>"We give complete access to any content you want," Engelhart said.
>>
>>But he said peer-to-peer file sharing applications that "swamp" the
>>network are managed, he said.

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav


--- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Lauzon <mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> From: Michael Lauzon <mlauzon at gmail.com>
> Subject: [TLUG]: CRTC to look at how Internet traffic is managed
> To: "TLUG" <tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org>
> Received: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:40 PM
> From an article on CTV.ca:
> 
> MONTREAL -- How Internet service providers deal with
> thousands of
> customers using their networks will come under scrutiny by
> the CRTC
> starting this week with public hearings on their policies
> to manage or
> shape the flow of user traffic.
> 
> The CRTC hearings will look at Internet traffic management
> practices
> by service providers. Among ISPs testifying are Bell
> (TSX:BCE), Rogers
> Communications (TSX:RCI,B), Telus (TSX:T) and Quebecor
> (TSX:QBR.B)
> 
> Independent Internet service providers say they are being
> penalized by
> practices to limit some traffic.
> 
> "I have no way to change that experience," said Tom
> Copeland, head of
> the Canadian Association of Internet Providers.
> 
> "It's out of my control," said Copeland, who provides
> Internet service
> to about 3,500 customers on Eagle.ca. in Cobourg, Ont. He
> buys
> wholesale Internet services from Bell.
> 
> The CRTC sided with Bell in a ruling last fall that stated
> the
> telecommunications company was within its right to regulate
> the flow
> of traffic on its network, but the commission agreed to
> hearings on
> the issue.
> 
> Copeland's association filed a complaint in April 2008
> saying that
> Bell's attempts to regulate who has access to the Internet
> at peak
> hours was an attempt to stifle competition and made it
> almost
> impossible for its members to properly manage the services
> they
> provide.
> 
> "It's hard to imagine that Bell's entire network across
> Ontario and
> Quebec is consistently burdened between 4:30 p.m. and 2
> a.m. seven
> days a week, 365 days a year," Copeland said.
> 
> But, Bell successfully argued it was necessary to limit
> some traffic
> because a relatively small number of users using
> peer-to-peer
> networking were taking up more than half of the network's
> capacity,
> slowing service for regular customers..
> 
> Copeland would like those who are using too much bandwidth
> and slowing
> speeds for other customers to be dealt with individually.
> 
> "We don't target a class of people or a class or
> applications just
> because we have a few rogues on the network who are abusing
> the
> privilege."
> 
> Bell's Mirko Bibic, senior vice-president of regulatory and
> government
> affairs, said the hearings are about traffic management and
> not net
> neutrality.
> 
> "Those who claim that these practices violate so-called net
> neutrality
> principles are being alarmist, can't point to any specific
> harm, and
> are taking positions that ignore the realities associated
> with
> building networks and operating them efficiently to ensure
> the best
> possible customer experience," Bibic said.
> 
> Bibic noted the CRTC has said that Bell's traffic
> management practices
> are appropriate and expects that to continue to be the
> case.
> 
> Bell Canada is scheduled to appear before the CRTC on July
> 13.
> 
> Analyst Iain Grant said owners of the networks must be
> allowed to
> manage Internet traffic for the majority of their users.
> 
> "That principal is true in traffic on our streets, it's
> true in
> traffic on our skies and I think it has to be true along
> the pipelines
> that are the flow of information," said Grant of the
> SeaBord Group, a
> technology research and consulting firm.
> 
> The Internet isn't "some romantic notion" and businesses
> are making
> decisions to invest in their networks, Grant said.
> 
> Search engine giant Google will also be making a
> presentation at the
> CRTC hearing as part of the Open Internet Coalition, which
> also
> includes Amazon, Skype and eBay.
> 
> Lawyer Jabob Glick said the coalition doesn't want traffic
> management
> that would restrict or affect software applications, noting
> that the
> file sharing application BitTorrent has been targeted.
> 
> Glick said the coalition believes targeting applications
> would affect
> innovation online and that pricing could help manage
> Internet traffic.
> 
> "We think the ISPs (Internet service providers) should
> have
> flexibility in charging different kinds of amounts for
> different kinds
> of usage," said Glick, Canadian policy counsel for Google
> Inc.
> 
> Rogers Communications said it wants an open Internet with
> few restrictions.
> 
> Traffic isn't shaped when a Rogers customer downloads a
> file or a
> video, said Ken Engelhart, senior vice-president of
> regulatory.
> 
> "We give complete access to any content you want,"
> Engelhart said.
> 
> But he said peer-to-peer file sharing applications that
> "swamp" the
> network are managed, he said.
> 
> 
> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090705/crtc_internet_090705/20090705?hub=SciTech
> 
> -- 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Michael Lauzon
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ?
> Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80
> columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


      __________________________________________________________________
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.  Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 00:20:39 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:20:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CRTC to look at how Internet traffic is managed
In-Reply-To: <172933.62712.qm-ocD5SZSfVaz6X00i2u5GFvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <172933.62712.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907052013170.7802@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Rajinder Yadav <devguy-DaQTI0RpDDMAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| I find the following statement perplexing, which is it? Rogers wants to 
| sound like the good guy in all this traffic shaping =)
| 
| >>Traffic isn't shaped when a Rogers customer downloads a file or a
| >>video, said Ken Engelhart, senior vice-president of regulatory.
| >>
| >>"We give complete access to any content you want," Engelhart said.
| >>
| >>But he said peer-to-peer file sharing applications that "swamp" the
| >>network are managed, he said.

I don't think that he is lying, I think he is being economical with
the truth.

As far as I know, traffic to the Rogers customer isn't throttled, it
is traffic from the customer that is shaped.

Bittorrent in particular has its upload speed whacked really hard.
For example, I have used BT to download a number of Linux distro .iso
files.  I can often acquire them in a very reasonable time, but
leaving BT on for a day afterwards does not transmit the same volume
from me to others.

The internet was designed as a dumb network with smart endpoints.
Each endpoint is conceptually a peer.  Rogers and Bell want us to be
limited to being consumers, not producers.  That is the real shaping
of the internet.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 00:40:43 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:40:43 -0400
Subject: CRTC to look at how Internet traffic is managed
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907052013170.7802-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <172933.62712.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> 
	<alpine.LRH.2.00.0907052013170.7802@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907051740g28bb4bf3yee1ca45855262858@mail.gmail.com>

Here are the public hearing details:

2008-19 Public Hearing Details

Monday, 6 July 2009

Appearing individually

1. Sandvine Incorporated
2. Juniper Networks

Panel

3. National Union
4. Union des consommateurs

Appearing individually

5. Public Interest Advocacy Centre
Tuesday, 7 July2009

Appearing individually

6. Open Internet Coalition
7. Zip.ca
8. Canadian Conference of the Arts
9. Canadian Independent Record Production Association

Panel

10. Jason Roks
11. Norm Friesen
12. Vaxination Informatique (Jean-Francois Mezei)

Wednesday, 8 July 2009

Panel

13. Independent Film and Television Alliance
14. Canadian Film & Television Production Association

Appearing individually

15. Score Media
16. Council of Canadians with Disabilities and ARCH Disability Law Centre
17 Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
18. Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic on behalf of
Campaign for Democratic Media

Thursday, 9 July 2009

Appearing individually

19. Canadian Association of Internet Providers
20. Coalition of Internet Service Providers
21. Cybersurf
22. Execulink Telecom
23. Rip.net

Friday, 10 July 2009

Appearing individually

24. Quebecor Media, on behalf of Videotron lt?e
25. MTS Allstream
26. Primus Telecommunications Canada Inc.
27. Cogeco Cable Inc.
28. Barrett Xplore Inc.

Monday, 13 July 2009

Appearing individually

29. Rogers Communications Inc.
30. Telus Communications Company
31. Shaw Communications Inc.
32. Bell Aliant Communications Partnership and Bell Canada





-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 01:33:22 2009
From: erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Erik (Caneris))
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:33:22 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907051542g7dc629ebrfdf44593531080d9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4A5D7B.9040700@teksavvy.com> <4A4A677D.1000401@teksavvy.com>
 	<7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9@mail.gmail.com>
 	<4A4A6D59.7080105@teksavvy.com>
 <7c50d3570906301258n64548d31l8901ba209d35cdac@mail.gmail.com>
 	<20090702164544.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <7c50d3570907021031g18cb979br3fd34999cdf172c1@mail.gmail.com>
 	<20090702175920.GO15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
 <7c50d3570907051443g4f73a828y7096996b7580b1b8@mail.gmail.com>
 	<20090705223448.GA8676@watson-wilon.ca>,<7c50d3570907051542g7dc629ebrfdf44593531080d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9746@klsapp1.klssys.com>

Michael Lauzon wrote: 
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 18:34, Neil 
> Watson<tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 05, 2009 at 05:43:21PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> >>
> >> So, then I can get MLPPP on a single DSL line...?
> >
> > Yes. ?I believe that this is possible.
> >
> > --
> > Neil Watson
> > Linux/UNIX Consultant
> > http://watson-wilson.ca
> > --
> 
> Anyone else know if it's possible, if I must I'll get a second line,
> but if I don't need to....
> 
Yes, you can do MLPPP on a single line. We (Caneris) are in the process of deploying MLPPP support on our LNSs.

Erik
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 02:55:45 2009
From: dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org (David Christopher Chipman)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:55:45 -0400
Subject: CRTC to look at how Internet traffic is managed
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907051740g28bb4bf3yee1ca45855262858-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <172933.62712.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> 	<alpine.LRH.2.00.0907052013170.7802@redclaw.mimosa.com> <7c50d3570907051740g28bb4bf3yee1ca45855262858@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A5167B1.6040504@ican.net>

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> Here are the public hearing details:
>
> [Hearing details snipped]
>   
Where are they appearing, though? Toronto? Ottawa? It makes a big 
difference for at least some of us.

-David Chipman
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 04:55:12 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 00:55:12 -0400
Subject: CRTC to look at how Internet traffic is managed
In-Reply-To: <4A5167B1.6040504-rYHPKw+MWrk@public.gmane.org>
References: <172933.62712.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> 
	<alpine.LRH.2.00.0907052013170.7802@redclaw.mimosa.com> <7c50d3570907051740g28bb4bf3yee1ca45855262858@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A5167B1.6040504@ican.net>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907052155q5ae0e3bey9032e1ebd7567f62@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 22:55, David Christopher
Chipman<dchipman-rYHPKw+MWrk at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Where are they appearing, though? Toronto? Ottawa? It makes a big difference
> for at least some of us.
>
> -David Chipman

You could have easily gone to the CRTC web site yourself, but here I
did it for you:

Gatineau


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 13:40:29 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:40:29 -0400
Subject: CRTC to look at how Internet traffic is managed
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907051740g28bb4bf3yee1ca45855262858-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <172933.62712.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> 	<alpine.LRH.2.00.0907052013170.7802@redclaw.mimosa.com> <7c50d3570907051740g28bb4bf3yee1ca45855262858@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A51FECD.1050009@utoronto.ca>

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> Here are the public hearing details:
> 
> 2008-19 Public Hearing Details
> 
> Monday, 6 July 2009
> 
> Appearing individually
> 
> 1. Sandvine Incorporated
> 2. Juniper Networks
> 
> Panel
> 
> 3. National Union
> 4. Union des consommateurs
> 
> Appearing individually
> 
> 5. Public Interest Advocacy Centre
> Tuesday, 7 July2009
> 
> Appearing individually
> 
> 6. Open Internet Coalition
> 7. Zip.ca
> 8. Canadian Conference of the Arts
> 9. Canadian Independent Record Production Association
> 
> Panel
> 
> 10. Jason Roks
> 11. Norm Friesen
> 12. Vaxination Informatique (Jean-Francois Mezei)
> 
> Wednesday, 8 July 2009
> 
> Panel
> 
> 13. Independent Film and Television Alliance
> 14. Canadian Film & Television Production Association
> 
> Appearing individually
> 
> 15. Score Media
> 16. Council of Canadians with Disabilities and ARCH Disability Law Centre
> 17 Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
> 18. Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic on behalf of
> Campaign for Democratic Media
> 
> Thursday, 9 July 2009
> 
> Appearing individually
> 
> 19. Canadian Association of Internet Providers
> 20. Coalition of Internet Service Providers
> 21. Cybersurf
> 22. Execulink Telecom
> 23. Rip.net
> 
> Friday, 10 July 2009
> 
> Appearing individually
> 
> 24. Quebecor Media, on behalf of Videotron lt?e
> 25. MTS Allstream
> 26. Primus Telecommunications Canada Inc.
> 27. Cogeco Cable Inc.
> 28. Barrett Xplore Inc.
> 
> Monday, 13 July 2009
> 
> Appearing individually
> 
> 29. Rogers Communications Inc.
> 30. Telus Communications Company
> 31. Shaw Communications Inc.
> 32. Bell Aliant Communications Partnership and Bell Canada

Great that all the big players who shape/throttle get to speak last.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 15:00:06 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:00:06 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <189134.33415.qm-LGZSB/hsMXIP4eY3Ra60wvu2YVrzzGjVVpNB7YpNyf8@public.gmane.org>
References: <189134.33415.qm@web111208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090706150005.GX15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jul 05, 2009 at 03:16:32PM -0700, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> 
> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
> > From: Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org>
> > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Perl or Python?
> > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> > Received: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 4:34 PM
> > On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:35:47 -0400
> > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org
> > (Lennart Sorensen) wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, Jul 01, 2009 at 04:57:53PM -0400, Marc Lanctot
> > wrote:
> > > > Python is still a high-level scripting language,
> > but higher than
> > > > Perl is. Python is more like Java, really. It is
> > a full-fledged
> > > > language in the sense that it comes with a
> > standard library,
> > > > enforces stronger syntax requirements, etc. etc..
> > 
> > > 
> > > That's a mean thing to say about python.? Unlike
> > java, python is
> > > actually useful and doesn't make you go insane trying
> > to run it on
> > > other systems, and python has decent performance.
> > > 
> > 
> > You're going to have to do a fair bit of convincing to get
> > anyone to
> > believe you that "Java is not useful". Specifically, oh,
> > say 20% (the
> > highest proportion) of the programmers out there [1]. 
> > 
> > It's very hard to make a general comparison on performance
> > between these
> > two languages; it depends on the specific task at hand,
> > the
> > JVM/Python interpreter implementation, and the specific
> > system.
> > There's wayyyy too much variance. If you could point to
> > scientific
> > evidence, I would be inclined to look into it. I doubt
> > anybody would
> > ever spend effort on that, though, because /that/ is
> > useless -- if
> > anybody ever has to make the Python vs. Java decision, it
> > will depend
> > highly on what they're using the language for. 
> > 
> > [1] http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
> > 
> > Marc
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> And I thought there was only bad blood between C++ and Java developers ;)

I just hate java.

The runtime has changes so many times, and is frequently not backwards
compatible.  Very annoying to try and install some java stuff for
developers just to eventually find out that the library you need only
works with java 1.4, and you have 1.3, and there is nothing in the
library or documentation that tells you this.  Java developers hardly
ever even consider this.  They just use whatever version they have,
and assume everyone else has that too.

You should not need a class to store your main function.  Programs require
some control logic.  It should not all be objects.  Something has to
manage your objects.  What a stupid design.

Anytime you hit a website that is stupidly slow, you can be sure the
pages end in .jsp or something simular.  Of course each page will jump
through 10 other pages on the way to where you are going, taking multiple
seconds per page.

So overall, the only impression one can get is that java is either a very
crappy language, or it attracts incredibly bad programmers, or maybe it
just makes people incredibly bad programmers.

OO can be a good tool.  Making it the only tool in a language can never
go well, in in the case of java it certainly didn't go well.

The write once run everywhere, well that hasn't happened yet.  So since
that doesn't work, please give us high performance native code instead,
rather than a stupid virtual machine that often doesn't let you reuse
code anyhow.  It was a huge marketing push by sun and lots of managers
jumped on it, and it never delivered, and now we are stuck with all these
java programmers tying together hundreds of bloated java classes into
huge bloated slow applications.

I am not saying use python, or c or anything else.  I am just saying
java isn't a solution.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 15:03:37 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:03:37 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <20090705163415.135cb632@gravid>
References: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20090701165753.528cbdce@gravid> <20090702183547.GR15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090705163415.135cb632@gravid>
Message-ID: <20090706150337.GY15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jul 05, 2009 at 04:34:15PM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote:
> You're going to have to do a fair bit of convincing to get anyone to
> believe you that "Java is not useful". Specifically, oh, say 20% (the
> highest proportion) of the programmers out there [1]. 

Well in my opinion they are probably the worst 20% of programmers out
there.  It's rather like visual basic that way, except that seems to be
going out of style now.  I guess java has replaced it.

So if you have lots of resources to waste, and want unskilled programmers
to coble together premade classes, then sure java is useful.  That is
almost the only thing I have ever seen java accomplish.  There are rare
exceptions, but not many.

> It's very hard to make a general comparison on performance between these
> two languages; it depends on the specific task at hand, the
> JVM/Python interpreter implementation, and the specific system.
> There's wayyyy too much variance. If you could point to scientific
> evidence, I would be inclined to look into it. I doubt anybody would
> ever spend effort on that, though, because /that/ is useless -- if
> anybody ever has to make the Python vs. Java decision, it will depend
> highly on what they're using the language for. 

I didn't mean to compare python and java.  Comparing a scripting language
to a "compiled" language makes little sense.

> [1] http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 15:04:42 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:04:42 -0400
Subject: is anyone here using acanac.ca with linux ?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907051443g4f73a828y7096996b7580b1b8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4A5D7B.9040700@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301153g4d6a11a5v32b67d8c7a072718@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A677D.1000401@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301234q1d52e3aeqa230c2d70dd26bf9@mail.gmail.com> <4A4A6D59.7080105@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570906301258n64548d31l8901ba209d35cdac@mail.gmail.com> <20090702164544.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7c50d3570907021031g18cb979br3fd34999cdf172c1@mail.gmail.com> <20090702175920.GO15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7c50d3570907051443g4f73a828y7096996b7580b1b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090706150441.GZ15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jul 05, 2009 at 05:43:21PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> So, then I can get MLPPP on a single DSL line...?

Yes.

mlppp doesn't require multiple links, it just supports multiple links.
After all if a link fails mlppp just uses what's left until the link
comes back.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 15:10:03 2009
From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:10:03 -0400
Subject: usb key firewall and openvpn
Message-ID: <4A5213CB.3050108@tmis.ca>


I would like to run a reasonably secure firewall and openvpn off a usb key.

I have been using IPCOP running off a hard disk and it has been a Tux 
warrior
(300GB/month for a year without an error or downtime, deserving full 
honours)
I know that IPCOP includes VPN, but I would like to use OpenVPN instead 
of NX.


I figure

Ubuntu 8.10 on USB key
apt-get install openvpn
apt-get install some_ubuntu_firewall ?

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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 16:00:43 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:00:43 -0400
Subject: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux
In-Reply-To: <7C722EE6-64CC-47F4-8D77-FA83600EE745-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907021251s6e55b273ja223542d2dfbca37@mail.gmail.com> <20090702200454.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A4D90A8.4050009@ss.org> <3a97ef0907030039l29520809od5d84ebf93ed9ba1@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907031010460.4607@redclaw.mimosa.com> <20090703144037.GW15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7C722EE6-64CC-47F4-8D77-FA83600EE745@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090706160043.GA15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sat, Jul 04, 2009 at 11:40:05AM -0700, Aviss,Tyler wrote:
> I actually do already have an EEE701. Battery life is good and even the 
> keyboard is ok for me, but as you mentioned the screen resolution is 
> rather annoying. Since my GF is going on holidays I was thinking on  
> upgrading and giving her the 701.
>
> I've been looking at the 1000 series but wasn't sure if they can come  
> with SSDs (only seen 700-900 series with those) or i'd they're still  
> Linux-friendly as all the ones I see are now windows preloads.

My wife has Debian unstable on her 1008HA in addition to windows 7 RC.
So far almost everything seems OK under linux.  The wired network port
is detected but not working.  Seems the driver isn't quite finished yet.
Wireless works fine though.

> I'd actually be happy to have a windows license for use in virtualbox,  
> and load eeebuntu myself (which is awesome even on the 700) as long as  
> the hardware supports it

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 16:35:23 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:35:23 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <20090706150337.GY15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <175305.22518.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	 <20090701165753.528cbdce@gravid>
	 <20090702183547.GR15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <20090705163415.135cb632@gravid>
	 <20090706150337.GY15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907060935u609df7a0r547bce9b1c318e51@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 05, 2009 at 04:34:15PM -0400, Marc Lanctot wrote:
>> You're going to have to do a fair bit of convincing to get anyone to
>> believe you that "Java is not useful". Specifically, oh, say 20% (the
>> highest proportion) of the programmers out there [1].
>
> Well in my opinion they are probably the worst 20% of programmers out
> there. ?It's rather like visual basic that way, except that seems to be
> going out of style now. ?I guess java has replaced it.

I would agree that the worst 10% of the programmers headed off and
learned Java...

"If Ada became the hot, in-language  you would see a lot more bad code
in   Ada."
-- Thaddeus L.  Olczyk <olczyk-IKAnbrrkwKZdz2imjWt+ww at public.gmane.org>, comp.lang.C++

> So if you have lots of resources to waste, and want unskilled programmers
> to coble together premade classes, then sure java is useful. ?That is
> almost the only thing I have ever seen java accomplish. ?There are rare
> exceptions, but not many.

I've seen *incredibly* awful Java code, but the folks I sit with at
work have built some pretty scalable Java-based applications, too.

It's worth noting that, when doing that, they eschewed the "grand
unified frameworks" - those seem to be necessary to structure the work
of the "bozos cobbling together premade classes", but those frameworks
pretty much preclude decent performance.
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Clifford Stoll  - "The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten
uppity." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/c/clifford_stoll.html
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 16:51:05 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:51:05 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <20090706150005.GX15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <189134.33415.qm@web111208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	 <20090706150005.GX15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907060951t493904c9l6053943912b53e9c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> So overall, the only impression one can get is that java is either a very
> crappy language, or it attracts incredibly bad programmers, or maybe it
> just makes people incredibly bad programmers.

The fundamental problem is that any language that becomes popular
will, by sheer virtue of popularity, attract the "worst element" of
bad programmers.

The only language in which I haven't seen much terrible code is
Prolog, and that's a language sufficiently esoteric that only
interested programmers (who are likely to not be TOO incredibly bad)
wind up using it.

- In academic programming courses, students write spectacularly
horrible Lisp code.

- I don't see much bad C anymore; it's no longer "hot," so bad
programmers don't pick it up.  Ten years ago was a different story...

- PHP is "hot," ergo I have seen a fair bit of horrid PHP code.  I try
to avoid it like the plague, now, but have certainly seen awful bits.

- C++ used to be popular, and 10 years ago, was attracting that "worst element."

Java became popular as a specific consequence of the troubles with the
"worst elements" working with C++...  The handling of memory
management in C++ was Really Really Horrible, between memory leaks and
crashes.

Java was a meaningful replacement for C++, in that:
a) It has similar syntax, loosely similar semantics, and a loosely
similar object model
b) Its memory management system is a whole lot safer.  None of the
direct pointer manipulations that lead to segfaults, and garbage
collection is safer than the usual explicit destroy() calls of C++.

It therefore allowed nearly 100% of the "bad C++ programmers" to
migrate to being slightly-happier "bad Java programmers."

I think this is way more a demographic problem than a technological problem.

I tend to agree with your technical criticisms of Java; I think it's
"object oriented to a fault," *except* that it's also simultaneously
"not OO enough" in some respects (e.g. - integer isn't an object type
when Integer is).

But I think you've got the causality backwards.
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Mary Pickford  - "Adding sound to movies would be like putting
lipstick on the Venus de Milo." -
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mary_pickford.html
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 17:20:31 2009
From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:20:31 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0907060951t493904c9l6053943912b53e9c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <189134.33415.qm@web111208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20090706150005.GX15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<d6d6637f0907060951t493904c9l6053943912b53e9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090706132031.gker4sbako4cww0w@easymail.pathcom.com>

----- Message from cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org ---------

> The fundamental problem is that any language that becomes popular
> will, by sheer virtue of popularity, attract the "worst element" of
> bad programmers.

I think that Java programming is affected by both the demographic 
problem that you describe and also by a mismatch between its popularity 
and its design.  People adopt the language under the assumption that 
anything with that much market penetration must be suitable for every 
purpose.  When they discover that it's not, they respond by denying the 
evidence and forcing it.  I believe that kind of thinking is behind the 
Java EE corruption of OOP using components, AOP, reflection, and 
related horrors.

I've been doing primarily object-oriented development -- at least 
nominally -- for about 19 years and I've noticed that when people "get" 
OO modeling they have expectations of the programming language being 
able to mimic the problem space.  Right from the beginning, Java's 
attempts to protect programmers from themselves have caused that 
expectation to fail.  As a result, you get language constructs that aid 
implementation and sabotage design.  Bad design tends to lead to bad 
code.
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 17:50:40 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:50:40 -0700
Subject: UnionFS and SD Cards (WAS: "mini" PC's, SSD's, and Linux)
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907061050p6860943bq6e129445e8204430@mail.gmail.com>

A neat trick for netbooks if you want to "go easy" on your internal
SSD and/or have swappable cards for different purposes:

http://forum.eeeuser.com/viewtopic.php?id=7694&p=1

This describes setting up unionFS with an SD card for the default
Xandros install, but you could probably do it just as well with
"eeebuntu" (a much better OS IMHO) or others.

If you had an 8GB+ SD card, setting up part for system files (software
installs, etc) and another part for user files (/home) should work out
nicely.

I'll be testing this out soon to see how it works.



On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tyler Aviss<tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I've been looking at upgrading from my EEE700. The SSD is a bit
> smallish at 4GB, and it seems that most of the bigger ones available
> only work on the 900's and above from what I've been seeing online.
> That, and the SSD's are almost half the price of a new unit.
>
> Anyone know a machine along the lines of an EEE which still has SSD's
> (the newer ones seem to be all HDD's again). As I lug my machine
> around a fair bit, the impact-resistance and low consumption of the
> SSD is somewhat preferable.
>
> Optimal specs: something with an Atom CPU, 1024x600 screen, 16GB+ SSD,
> wifi/cardreader/cam, and of course Linux-friendly drivers.
>
> Ideas/suggestions?
>
> --
> Tyler Aviss
> Systems Support
> LPIC/LPIC-2
> (778) 890-0942
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 17:50:39 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:50:39 -0400
Subject: Recommendations Please: Music Player and Library Manager
In-Reply-To: <20090705144407.b5a5bad4.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4FD15B.5010706@rogers.com> <4A50D0C8.7030906@linuxcaffe.ca>
	 <20090705144407.b5a5bad4.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907061050u404b46e0j22986b47bc208576@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, ted leslie<tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> ubuntu is thinking of replacing RB with banshee,
> i still use amarok (even thou i love mono),
> but banshee has a lot of resources behind it,
> and is really getting better and better quickly,
> if ubuntu doesnt put ?banshee in as the default for their next release,
> it will probably be the release after that.
> I am getting close to switching to Banshee, just not in any rush,
> but eventually I will , as it just has too much momentum to be ignored.

Hopefully a *rational* argument about the merits/demerits of Mono will
take place in the course of this...

I haven't been impressed by either of the tacks I have seen taken.

On the one hand, there's the "totally pragmatic" path, of "it works,
therefore it must be good."  Down that road lies "Oh, slave labour
built the Pyramids, hence slavery must be fine," admittedly as
something of a distant endpoint ;-).

On the other hand, RMS has been making the argument that "oh, there
might be patent problems, so nobody should *consider* using it..."

I'd much rather hear him make the more courageous argument:
 "We *should* use Mono, fairly heavily, so that we have an investment in the
  idea of fighting the broken things about the patent system."

I'd be fine with an argument to the effect that "we shouldn't use Mono
for strategically important things," as a dose of pragmatism.  But it
seems to me that RMS is avoiding a fight that rather ought to get
fought.
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Paula Poundstone  - "I don't have a bank account because I don't know
my mother's maiden name." -
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/paula_poundstone.html
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 18:22:03 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 14:22:03 -0400
Subject: Perl or Python?
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0907060951t493904c9l6053943912b53e9c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <189134.33415.qm@web111208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20090706150005.GX15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <d6d6637f0907060951t493904c9l6053943912b53e9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090706182203.GB15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 06, 2009 at 12:51:05PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > So overall, the only impression one can get is that java is either a very
> > crappy language, or it attracts incredibly bad programmers, or maybe it
> > just makes people incredibly bad programmers.
> 
> The fundamental problem is that any language that becomes popular
> will, by sheer virtue of popularity, attract the "worst element" of
> bad programmers.

But if the language encouraged good things, then that might not be so bad.
It seems the popular ones never do though.

> The only language in which I haven't seen much terrible code is
> Prolog, and that's a language sufficiently esoteric that only
> interested programmers (who are likely to not be TOO incredibly bad)
> wind up using it.

Prolog is certainly weird.  I haven't used it much at all, but I have seen
some stuff written in it and been rather amazed that you could do such
things in prolog.  It is much more capable that I thought it could be.
My wife likes prolog.

> - In academic programming courses, students write spectacularly
> horrible Lisp code.

Yeah probably.

> - I don't see much bad C anymore; it's no longer "hot," so bad
> programmers don't pick it up.  Ten years ago was a different story...

There is plenty of bad C code around.  Maybe not much horrible C code,
but plenty of bad C code.

> - PHP is "hot," ergo I have seen a fair bit of horrid PHP code.  I try
> to avoid it like the plague, now, but have certainly seen awful bits.

PHP is amazingly nice to work with.  It unfortunately makes it much too
easy to make security disasters.  It is very easy to do things that work
great, but also permit things you never thought of.

> - C++ used to be popular, and 10 years ago, was attracting that "worst element."
> 
> Java became popular as a specific consequence of the troubles with the
> "worst elements" working with C++...  The handling of memory
> management in C++ was Really Really Horrible, between memory leaks and
> crashes.

To some extent the fact java hides memory management from the programmer
seems to work as an excuse to no longer care about memory use.  RAM may
be cheap, but I have other things I wanted to use it for.

> Java was a meaningful replacement for C++, in that:
> a) It has similar syntax, loosely similar semantics, and a loosely
> similar object model

I think both have horrible syntax.

> b) Its memory management system is a whole lot safer.  None of the
> direct pointer manipulations that lead to segfaults, and garbage
> collection is safer than the usual explicit destroy() calls of C++.

It is also very easy to write programs that consume 500MB of ram for no
apparent reason.

> It therefore allowed nearly 100% of the "bad C++ programmers" to
> migrate to being slightly-happier "bad Java programmers."
> 
> I think this is way more a demographic problem than a technological problem.
> 
> I tend to agree with your technical criticisms of Java; I think it's
> "object oriented to a fault," *except* that it's also simultaneously
> "not OO enough" in some respects (e.g. - integer isn't an object type
> when Integer is).

It's a very badly designed language.  That might also be the reason they
had to go through so many incompatible versions to get where they are now.
How many GUI tookkits did they go through so far?  2?  3?  Besides,
the bad programmers aren't qualified to do OO properly in the first
place and now they have to do everything that way?

> But I think you've got the causality backwards.

No, I think to a large extent the design of the language encourages it.

And the everything is OO is simply a mistake.  LISP probably takes it
too far the other way with everything is a list or function.

Some things should not be classes/objects.  Some stuff really should be
control logic, and not part of any class or object.

Some languages seem to take the standard runtime too far.  How big
is the standard java runtime set of libraries that every java version
expects to have?  What about .net?  Sure you can write a handy tool in
.net in 5 minutes, but the user needs a 60MB runtime downloaded to use
your little handy tool.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul  6 23:04:27 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 19:04:27 -0400
Subject: ISPs should prove they need to control Internet traffic, consumers 
	tell CRTC
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907061604l6a19f5bdy7ea2f2fd8e9d60bc@mail.gmail.com>

First day of hearings:

GATINEAU, Que. ? The federal regular has an obligation to Canadians to
ensure efforts by Internet providers don't unjustly discriminate
against certain classes of users when they manage their networks,
consumer groups said Monday.

In a presentation that drew a line in the sand between end users and
the big Internet service providers, the Consumers' Association of
Canada, representing several public interest groups, told CRTC
commissioners it was their responsibility to ensure access is fair and
equal.

The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission called
the one-week of hearings to determine under what conditions providers
such as Bell (TSX:BCE), Rogers Communications (TSX:RCI,B), Telus
(TSX:T) and Quebecor (TSX:QBR.B) can control flow of traffic on their
networks.

The issue not only involves the speed on the Internet, but also raises
concerns about anti-competitive practices and privacy, since certain
management practices allows providers to discern the content being
shared by users.

NDP digital affairs spokesman Charlie Angus said the hearings were
critical because of the Internet's importance in the new economy.

"It sets a really bad signal if it's the telcoms that get to decide
what's in the fast lane and what's in the slow lane," Angus said.

Providers say they need to be able to "manage the flow of traffic,
particularly during peak hours, in order that the relative few users
that require a lot of bandwidth can't clog up the pipeline and slow
traffic for everyone else."

The one-week hearings began with testimony by two network managing
firms that argued that providers need to ensure the vast majority of
users are not disadvantaged by the few.

"An unmanaged network is not neutral," said Don Bowman, chief
technology officer with Sandvine Inc., a Waterloo, Ont. network
management firm.

"Certain bandwidth-hungry applications introduce delays into the
network that prejudice" others.

But John Lawford, representing the consumers association and several
public interest groups, questioned whether providers are using
high-bandwidth peer-to-peer file sharing as a scapegoat for their
failure to expand networks to meet demand.

Peer-to-peer is used to distribute large files, including software,
academic files, movies, television programs and music, from computer
to computer over the Internet.

Lawford said one service provider estimated peer-to-peer at about
three per cent of network traffic, although it is growing.

"If three per cent is causing a problem, how finely tuned is your
network?" Lawford asked. "Are we getting in Canada a good enough
Internet, and the answer is no."

Lawford said he is not opposed to all network traffic management, but
providers must first justify why it is necessary and receive
permission from the CRTC.

And he said some forms of control, such as deep packet inspection
(DPI) that allows providers to detect the types of content on the
Internet, is a violation of privacy laws and open to abuse. He said
providers can measure the traffic without resorting to such intrusive
means.

The hearings continue until next Monday.


http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090706/090706_crtc_internet/20090706/?hub=CP24Home

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 00:49:16 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 20:49:16 -0400
Subject: Test
Message-ID: <a05162a70907061749h62a6bdah82d06fcfb4084889@mail.gmail.com>

I've just setup a new gmail account, ymail is too slow at times for my
liking!

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 01:32:21 2009
From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:32:21 -0400
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907061749h62a6bdah82d06fcfb4084889-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907061749h62a6bdah82d06fcfb4084889@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090706213221.0c7edb69@gravid>

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 20:49:16 -0400
Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I've just setup a new gmail account, ymail is too slow at times for my
> liking!
> 

Raj -- can you do me a favor and reply to this email. I want to see if
it shows as a reply to mine. 

I suspect your old email account was not properly respecting the
mail headers responsible for proper threading; your responses were
always listed as replies to the original thread's post. (Could be my
client, too, though.)

Marc

-- 
Impatience is the sign of a practical mind.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 01:43:35 2009
From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:43:35 -0400
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <20090706213221.0c7edb69@gravid>
References: <a05162a70907061749h62a6bdah82d06fcfb4084889@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090706213221.0c7edb69@gravid>
Message-ID: <cc63eb120907061843y1bc01e87y400f85763ac07e2c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Marc Lanctot<lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 20:49:16 -0400
> Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> I've just setup a new gmail account, ymail is too slow at times for my
>> liking!
>>
>
> Raj -- can you do me a favor and reply to this email. I want to see if
> it shows as a reply to mine.
>
> I suspect your old email account was not properly respecting the
> mail headers responsible for proper threading; your responses were
> always listed as replies to the original thread's post. (Could be my
> client, too, though.)
>
Nah, I saw that too. Could never figure out who the heck Rajinder was
replying to. Never said anything because I knew it was probably Yahoo
Mail's doing. Thank you Rajinder!
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 01:45:17 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:45:17 -0400
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <20090706213221.0c7edb69@gravid>
References: <a05162a70907061749h62a6bdah82d06fcfb4084889@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090706213221.0c7edb69@gravid>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907061845w7c75cfekfc3e18435832434b@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 20:49:16 -0400
> Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> > I've just setup a new gmail account, ymail is too slow at times for my
> > liking!
> >
>
> Raj -- can you do me a favor and reply to this email. I want to see if
> it shows as a reply to mine.
>
> I suspect your old email account was not properly respecting the
> mail headers responsible for proper threading; your responses were
> always listed as replies to the original thread's post. (Could be my
> client, too, though.)
>
> Marc



Hi Marc,

I suspect ymail is the culprit. I am also on the LFS mailing-list and
someone laughed about yahoo sticking ad tags, this one was about IE8 from
Microsoft...glad these hard-core linux guys found it hilarious and didn't
flame me to polluting their ML =P

After that I started to notice all the crap yahoo would append to my email
at the end. Well I hope gmail is better with your email client. Let me know
if you're still seeing text wrapping problem....I looked through gmail
setting and I didn't see anything about this or html disabling/enabling.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 02:19:46 2009
From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 22:19:46 -0400
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907061845w7c75cfekfc3e18435832434b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907061749h62a6bdah82d06fcfb4084889@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090706213221.0c7edb69@gravid>
	<a05162a70907061845w7c75cfekfc3e18435832434b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090706221946.089885d4@gravid>

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:45:17 -0400
Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I suspect ymail is the culprit. I am also on the LFS mailing-list and
> someone laughed about yahoo sticking ad tags, this one was about IE8
> from Microsoft...glad these hard-core linux guys found it hilarious
> and didn't flame me to polluting their ML =P

Alejulia! Fixed. In time, you will become "hard-core" too, my son. :-p

> After that I started to notice all the crap yahoo would append to my
> email at the end. Well I hope gmail is better with your email client.
> Let me know if you're still seeing text wrapping problem....I looked
> through gmail setting and I didn't see anything about this or html
> disabling/enabling.

As far as I can tell they're fine now -- if this last email was typed
without any forced CR+LFs then it appears they your client/interface is
properly cuttings lines. 

Marc

-- 
Impatience is the sign of a practical mind.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 02:58:09 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 22:58:09 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com>

Well, it appears my connection is being shapped on a regular download
by Bell, as I am getting really shitty speeds bouncing around 13KB/sec
- 60KB/sec, and this is not a p2p download, just a regular file
download off of gamershell.com.  So, it seems Bell has gotten worse
even when they are currently in front of the CRTC!

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 03:11:16 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 23:11:16 -0400
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <20090706221946.089885d4@gravid>
References: <a05162a70907061749h62a6bdah82d06fcfb4084889@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090706213221.0c7edb69@gravid>
	 <a05162a70907061845w7c75cfekfc3e18435832434b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090706221946.089885d4@gravid>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907062011n26b87c8dk2287ca9c11b2feac@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Marc Lanctot <lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:45:17 -0400
> Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> > I suspect ymail is the culprit. I am also on the LFS mailing-list and
> > someone laughed about yahoo sticking ad tags, this one was about IE8
> > from Microsoft...glad these hard-core linux guys found it hilarious
> > and didn't flame me to polluting their ML =P
>
> Alejulia! Fixed. In time, you will become "hard-core" too, my son. :-p


I like the sound of that =P, me down with Linux !!!


>
>
> > After that I started to notice all the crap yahoo would append to my
> > email at the end. Well I hope gmail is better with your email client.
> > Let me know if you're still seeing text wrapping problem....I looked
> > through gmail setting and I didn't see anything about this or html
> > disabling/enabling.
>
> As far as I can tell they're fine now -- if this last email was typed
> without any forced CR+LFs then it appears they your client/interface is
> properly cuttings lines.
>
> Marc
>

Looks good on my end and no forced CR+LR, and I can "now" track each thread
too, wow, the gmail web-client is much better!

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 03:12:39 2009
From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 23:12:39 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Michael Lauzon<mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Well, it appears my connection is being shapped on a regular download
> by Bell, as I am getting really shitty speeds bouncing around 13KB/sec
> - 60KB/sec, and this is not a p2p download, just a regular file
> download off of gamershell.com. ?So, it seems Bell has gotten worse
> even when they are currently in front of the CRTC!
>

As much as I hate Bell Canada's internet service, I'd doubt it's
deliberate. It's probably just incompetentce! ;)

Anyhow, switch to Teksavvy and use MLPPP, no more shaping. Even
better, no more Bell.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 03:16:41 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 23:16:41 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907062016r4b164c26v45a11c8fc4d70d95@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 23:12, Thomas
Milne<tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> As much as I hate Bell Canada's internet service, I'd doubt it's
> deliberate. It's probably just incompetentce! ;)
>
> Anyhow, switch to Teksavvy and use MLPPP, no more shaping. Even
> better, no more Bell.
> --

I am thinking of calling them up tomorrow, and getting my phone &
Internet switched over to TekSavvy, and just use Bell for SatTV.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 04:02:07 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 00:02:07 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907062016r4b164c26v45a11c8fc4d70d95-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907062016r4b164c26v45a11c8fc4d70d95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907062102r1e8f42adya96ec3bd6baf0ce2@mail.gmail.com>

By the way, what kind of router would I need to get, because I know
that Tomato/MLPPP firmware is needed?


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 04:53:12 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 00:53:12 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907062102r1e8f42adya96ec3bd6baf0ce2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c50d3570907062016r4b164c26v45a11c8fc4d70d95@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c50d3570907062102r1e8f42adya96ec3bd6baf0ce2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090707005312.39cdb61c@teksavvy.com>

Michael Lauzon wrote: 

> By the way, what kind of router would I need to get, because I know
> that Tomato/MLPPP firmware is needed?

I got the Linksys WRT54GL, very inexpensive. If you check the site here:

http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato

it has a list on the main page.

Then you need this for MLPPP support:

http://fixppp.org/

-- 
J
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 11:01:21 2009
From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:01:21 -0400
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907062011n26b87c8dk2287ca9c11b2feac-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>; from devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org on Mon, Jul 06, 2009 at 23:11:16 -0400
References: <a05162a70907061749h62a6bdah82d06fcfb4084889@mail.gmail.com> <20090706213221.0c7edb69@gravid> <a05162a70907061845w7c75cfekfc3e18435832434b@mail.gmail.com> <20090706221946.089885d4@gravid> <a05162a70907062011n26b87c8dk2287ca9c11b2feac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090707110121.GA1870@localhost>

On Mon Jul 06,2009 11:11:16 PM Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> Looks good on my end and no forced CR+LR, and I can "now" track 
> each thread too, wow, the gmail web-client is much better!

Hi Rajinder,

Your next assignment is to change gmail so that you are not including 
HTML formatting, only plain text, as requested by this mailing list.

For the gmail client you should see a link above the box where you 
compose your message named "Plain Text". Please click on this before 
posting your message. The link should change to "Rich Format" (to 
give you the option to change back to HTML).

It's a little confusing. If you see "Plain Text" then you will be 
posting with HTML (bad). If you see "Rich Format" then you will be 
posting only plain text (good).

Thanks,
Scott

-- 
** Scott Allen   scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org **
**     Toronto, Ontario, Canada     **
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 11:50:11 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:50:11 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <20090707005312.39cdb61c-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907062016r4b164c26v45a11c8fc4d70d95@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907062102r1e8f42adya96ec3bd6baf0ce2@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090707005312.39cdb61c@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907070450l49eba9f1u1cbfdc7dbaa07ae2@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 00:53, JoeHill<joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I got the Linksys WRT54GL, very inexpensive. If you check the site here:
>
> http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato
>
> it has a list on the main page.
>
> Then you need this for MLPPP support:
>
> http://fixppp.org/
>
> --
> J


Why would I need both, when the second one is the fork of the original firmware?


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 12:30:11 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:30:11 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907070450l49eba9f1u1cbfdc7dbaa07ae2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com> 	<cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a@mail.gmail.com> 	<7c50d3570907062016r4b164c26v45a11c8fc4d70d95@mail.gmail.com> 	<7c50d3570907062102r1e8f42adya96ec3bd6baf0ce2@mail.gmail.com> 	<20090707005312.39cdb61c@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570907070450l49eba9f1u1cbfdc7dbaa07ae2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A533FD3.9030906@utoronto.ca>

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 00:53, JoeHill<joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> I got the Linksys WRT54GL, very inexpensive. If you check the site here:
>>
>> http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato
>>
>> it has a list on the main page.
>>
>> Then you need this for MLPPP support:
>>
>> http://fixppp.org/
>>
>> --
>> J
> 
> 
> Why would I need both, when the second one is the fork of the original firmware?

fixppp is a fork of tomato that specifically adds mlppp support. Or you 
can ask teksavvy about them doing mlppp for you and use whatever router 
firmware you like (dd-wrt is fancy and nice to use, openwrt is powerful 
and the most "linuxish" too).

Jamon
--
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 12:53:39 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 08:53:39 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <4A533FD3.9030906-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907062016r4b164c26v45a11c8fc4d70d95@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907062102r1e8f42adya96ec3bd6baf0ce2@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090707005312.39cdb61c@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570907070450l49eba9f1u1cbfdc7dbaa07ae2@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A533FD3.9030906@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907070553l69b8055dva141ddb6b56df353@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 08:30, Jamon Camisso<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> fixppp is a fork of tomato that specifically adds mlppp support. Or you can
> ask teksavvy about them doing mlppp for you and use whatever router firmware
> you like (dd-wrt is fancy and nice to use, openwrt is powerful and the most
> "linuxish" too).
>
> Jamon
> --


I am still on Windows, I'm a Gamer...how the firmware looks doesn't
really matter, as long as it works.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 14:20:02 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 10:20:02 -0400
Subject: LDAP Access control
Message-ID: <4A535992.5090208@moores.ca>

Hi all,

By chance does anyone on this list have any experience with LDAP?

I've installed a LDAP server on my network against which all my users
can authenticate. They can even change their passwords via GUI or CLI
without any issue.

What I am trying to do now is allow each one of them to have an address
book in their subtree.

I created a subtree in each authentication relm that looks like this

ou=Contacts,uid=user,ou=People,dc=domain,dc=ca

Their is no problem with the rootdn adding entries below this, but I am
unable to get the user to be able to. In fact I can't seem to allow the
user to write anywhere. Even with the lone access rule:

access to * by * write

in the /etc/ldap/ldap.conf file (and yes I restart slapd everytime I
change this file)

I beleive the correct access rule for what I want is:
access to dn.children="ou=People,dc=domain,dc=ca" by self write

but that doesn't work either and I figured I'd ruduce the number of
unknowns by trying to give global write permission first.

A commandline test to create an entry yields this result:
darryl at bison:~$ ldapadd  -w ${NETPASS} -x -D
"uid=darryl,ou=People,dc=domain,dc=ca" -f ~/tmp
adding new entry
"cn=test_test1,ou=Contacts,uid=darryl,ou=People,dc=domain,dc=ca"
ldap_add: Insufficient access (50)
	additional info: no write access to parent


~/tmp looks like this:
dn: cn=test_test1,ou=Contacts,uid=darryl,ou=People,dc=domain,dc=ca
cn: test_test1
objectClass: inetOrgPerson
sn: testestestets



It's not an authentication issue because if NETPASS is wrong it returns:

ldap_bind: Invalid credentials (49)

Anyone have any ideas? I'm stumped! There are some LDAP mail lists I've
skulked around but have not found anything. The next step I guess is to
register with them and ask directly there.

cheers,
darryl


--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 14:21:11 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 10:21:11 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090707142111.GC15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 06, 2009 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> Well, it appears my connection is being shapped on a regular download
> by Bell, as I am getting really shitty speeds bouncing around 13KB/sec
> - 60KB/sec, and this is not a p2p download, just a regular file
> download off of gamershell.com.  So, it seems Bell has gotten worse
> even when they are currently in front of the CRTC!

Or the server is overloaded or slow.  It does happen.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 14:22:33 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 10:22:33 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907062102r1e8f42adya96ec3bd6baf0ce2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com> <cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570907062016r4b164c26v45a11c8fc4d70d95@mail.gmail.com> <7c50d3570907062102r1e8f42adya96ec3bd6baf0ce2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090707142232.GD15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 07, 2009 at 12:02:07AM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> By the way, what kind of router would I need to get, because I know
> that Tomato/MLPPP firmware is needed?

An old PC with two network ports works I suppose.  You don't have to
use a dedicated router. :)

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 14:53:28 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 10:53:28 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <20090707142232.GD15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<cc63eb120907062012o515d1868nc9c2e7338c229f2a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907062016r4b164c26v45a11c8fc4d70d95@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907062102r1e8f42adya96ec3bd6baf0ce2@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090707142232.GD15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907070753v62821b08v8708ef1377429e32@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:22, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> An old PC with two network ports works I suppose. ?You don't have to
> use a dedicated router. :)
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --


I have the ASUS Rampage II Extreme, it has two NIC ports built in, a
dedicated router would work well, because if I got another PC -- or
something along those lines -- I could make a storage server.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 14:54:57 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 10:54:57 -0400
Subject: Traffic Shapped On Regular Downloads
In-Reply-To: <20090707142111.GC15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907061958q7854c6c1ia673fbd50efafc5f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090707142111.GC15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907070754k64117e63oc795993824784048@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:21, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Or the server is overloaded or slow. ?It does happen.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen


The server wasn't overloaded, because a bunch of people on the message
board were getting the normal rates, the few of us who are using Bell
were the ones getting the shitty download rates.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 17:17:33 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:17:33 -0400
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: <20090707110121.GA1870@localhost>
References: <a05162a70907061749h62a6bdah82d06fcfb4084889@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090706213221.0c7edb69@gravid>
	 <a05162a70907061845w7c75cfekfc3e18435832434b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090706221946.089885d4@gravid>
	 <a05162a70907062011n26b87c8dk2287ca9c11b2feac@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090707110121.GA1870@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907071017le2df7d4g76ce49e9ffcb0d9b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Scott Allen<scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon Jul 06,2009 11:11:16 PM Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>
>> Looks good on my end and no forced CR+LR, and I can "now" track each
>> thread too, wow, the gmail web-client is much better!
>
> Hi Rajinder,
>
> Your next assignment is to change gmail so that you are not including HTML
> formatting, only plain text, as requested by this mailing list.
>
> For the gmail client you should see a link above the box where you compose
> your message named "Plain Text". Please click on this before posting your
> message. The link should change to "Rich Format" (to give you the option to
> change back to HTML).
> It's a little confusing. If you see "Plain Text" then you will be posting
> with HTML (bad). If you see "Rich Format" then you will be posting only
> plain text (good).
>
> Thanks,
> Scott

I got that Scott, thanks for the 411
Now sending in plain text.

--
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 18:23:23 2009
From: edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (edward chin)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:23:23 -0400
Subject: Clive Apps
Message-ID: <8369b0fa0907071123v38efe1dfn7232f15697ad31a@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone could provide contact information about Clive Apps or his
friend Barry, it would be appreciated.
Clive contributed greatly to TLUG for many years, but has been out of
touch for a long time.

TIA
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 21:14:07 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:14:07 -0400
Subject: Emulated PC Enables Linux Desktop In Your Browser on Friday July 03, 
	@10:50AM
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907071414y5f70e83eic2b8dda49e48c318@mail.gmail.com>

Don't know if any of you saw this article on Slashdot, but here it is:

Classic DOOM and DSL Linux Desktop inside your Java-enabled browser!
The latest JPC, the fast 100% Java x86 PC emulator
(http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/aboutus_aboutus.html), is now
available with online demos and downloads
(http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/). JPC is open source and is the most
secure way of running x86 software ever ? 2 layers (applet sandbox,
JPC sandbox) of independently validated security make it the world's
most secure means of isolating x86 software. Visit the website to try
out some classic games and play around with Linux all within your web
browser. Refresh = reboot!

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul  7 21:16:25 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:16:25 -0400
Subject: Emulated PC Enables Linux Desktop In Your Browser on Friday July 
	03, @10:50AM
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907071414y5f70e83eic2b8dda49e48c318-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907071414y5f70e83eic2b8dda49e48c318@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907071416k2254605cxf74c2901eb50fff@mail.gmail.com>

Forgot the link:

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/03/1248246/Emulated-PC-Enables-Linux-Desktop-In-Your-Browser

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 17:14, Michael Lauzon<mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Don't know if any of you saw this article on Slashdot, but here it is:
>
> Classic DOOM and DSL Linux Desktop inside your Java-enabled browser!
> The latest JPC, the fast 100% Java x86 PC emulator
> (http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/aboutus_aboutus.html), is now
> available with online demos and downloads
> (http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/). JPC is open source and is the most
> secure way of running x86 software ever ? 2 layers (applet sandbox,
> JPC sandbox) of independently validated security make it the world's
> most secure means of isolating x86 software. Visit the website to try
> out some classic games and play around with Linux all within your web
> browser. Refresh = reboot!
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Michael Lauzon
>



-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 00:02:11 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:02:11 -0400
Subject: Emulated PC Enables Linux Desktop In Your Browser on 
	Friday July 03, @10:50AM
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907071416k2254605cxf74c2901eb50fff-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907071414y5f70e83eic2b8dda49e48c318@mail.gmail.com>
	 <7c50d3570907071416k2254605cxf74c2901eb50fff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907071702w18f354b7m6ba8b7e19c4ca10f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Michael Lauzon <mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Forgot the link:
>
>
> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/03/1248246/Emulated-PC-Enables-Linux-Desktop-In-Your-Browser
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 17:14, Michael Lauzon<mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Don't know if any of you saw this article on Slashdot, but here it is:
> >
> > Classic DOOM and DSL Linux Desktop inside your Java-enabled browser!
> > The latest JPC, the fast 100% Java x86 PC emulator
> > (http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/aboutus_aboutus.html), is now
> > available with online demos and downloads
> > (http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/). JPC is open source and is the most
> > secure way of running x86 software ever ? 2 layers (applet sandbox,
> > JPC sandbox) of independently validated security make it the world's
> > most secure means of isolating x86 software. Visit the website to try
> > out some classic games and play around with Linux all within your web
> > browser. Refresh = reboot!


Let me understand this, someone developed a VM to run inside another VM
that's all designed to run in a browser?

So I went to the JPC site, clicked on the DOOM link nothing happened, I
tried it again and my Firefox 3.5 crashed =) Were you able to get DOOM
going?

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 01:26:57 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 21:26:57 -0400
Subject: Emulated PC Enables Linux Desktop In Your Browser on 
	Friday July 03, @10:50AM
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907071702w18f354b7m6ba8b7e19c4ca10f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907071414y5f70e83eic2b8dda49e48c318@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907071416k2254605cxf74c2901eb50fff@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a05162a70907071702w18f354b7m6ba8b7e19c4ca10f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907071826l12807db7ge92ae39baa7fdd54@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 20:02, Rajinder Yadav<devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Let me understand this, someone developed a VM to run inside another VM
> that's all designed to run in a browser?
>
> So I went to the JPC site, clicked on the DOOM link nothing happened, I
> tried it again and my Firefox 3.5 crashed =) Were you able to get DOOM
> going?
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
>


I got it [Doom] running in IE8, but it was slow, as well as in Firefox
3.5, and it was faster than in IE8.

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 01:45:31 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 21:45:31 -0400
Subject: Emulated PC Enables Linux Desktop In Your Browser on 
	Friday July 03, @10:50AM
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907071826l12807db7ge92ae39baa7fdd54-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907071414y5f70e83eic2b8dda49e48c318@mail.gmail.com>
	 <7c50d3570907071416k2254605cxf74c2901eb50fff@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907071702w18f354b7m6ba8b7e19c4ca10f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <7c50d3570907071826l12807db7ge92ae39baa7fdd54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907071845u36a5839k3c1db4c39b4026a3@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Michael Lauzon<mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 20:02, Rajinder Yadav<devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Let me understand this, someone developed a VM to run inside another VM
>> that's all designed to run in a browser?
>>
>> So I went to the JPC site, clicked on the DOOM link nothing happened, I
>> tried it again and my Firefox 3.5 crashed =) Were you able to get DOOM
>> going?
>>
>> --
>> Kind Regards,
>> Rajinder Yadav
>>
> I got it [Doom] running in IE8, but it was slow, as well as in Firefox
> 3.5, and it was faster than in IE8.
> --
> Sincerely,
> Michael Lauzon

I gave it another go. I didn't realize it takes a long while to
download all the files but I managed to get DOOM working.
Yes it is a bit slow to enjoy the game.

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 02:16:08 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 22:16:08 -0400
Subject: Emulated PC Enables Linux Desktop In Your Browser on 
	Friday July 03, @10:50AM
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907071845u36a5839k3c1db4c39b4026a3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907071414y5f70e83eic2b8dda49e48c318@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907071416k2254605cxf74c2901eb50fff@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a05162a70907071702w18f354b7m6ba8b7e19c4ca10f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c50d3570907071826l12807db7ge92ae39baa7fdd54@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a05162a70907071845u36a5839k3c1db4c39b4026a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907071916n3651db97wb866f5cb9e241382@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 21:45, Rajinder Yadav<devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I gave it another go. I didn't realize it takes a long while to
> download all the files but I managed to get DOOM working.
> Yes it is a bit slow to enjoy the game.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav

It downloaded quite fast for me in IE8 & Firefox 3.5, however it was
only slow in IE8 but much faster in Firefox 3.5.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 03:01:18 2009
From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 23:01:18 -0400
Subject: Canadian domain registrars
Message-ID: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking at some Canadian domain name registrars, I see NamesPro,
Webnames, Domain.ca, etc. Any nightmares to avoid or positive
references?

Thanks!
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 03:02:21 2009
From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:02:21 -0400
Subject: Clive Apps
In-Reply-To: <8369b0fa0907071123v38efe1dfn7232f15697ad31a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <8369b0fa0907071123v38efe1dfn7232f15697ad31a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A53D3FD.24847.5CA79EF6@sciguy.vex.net>

I've heard from a close friend of his a few years ago, and fellow former PCCT 
member that he is actually in a bad way. A very bad way. I won't go into the 
details, but he most likely cannot be contacted. Both served on the PCCT exec, 
and he had basically faded out of contact years ago. All I can say, with 
respect to Clive's dignity, that it is a sad affair. Very sad. I had a great 
deal of respect for his technical talents, and his witty style of conversation.

For any further discussions and possible contact info (of the "friend of a 
friend" variety), please contact me off-list.

Paul King

> If anyone could provide contact information about Clive Apps or his
> friend Barry, it would be appreciated.
> Clive contributed greatly to TLUG for many years, but has been out of
> touch for a long time.
> 
> TIA
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 4222 (20090707) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 


--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 03:58:26 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:58:26 -0400
Subject: Canadian domain registrars
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A541962.6080507@dinamis.com>

On 07/07/09 11:01 PM, Thomas Milne wrote:
> I'm looking at some Canadian domain name registrars, I see NamesPro,
> Webnames, Domain.ca, etc. Any nightmares to avoid or positive
> references?
> 
> Thanks!

This is our captive domain registration site:
<http://RegisterYourDomainOnTheInter.net>. If you have only a handful of
domains, how nice the control panel is probably doesn't matter very
much. If you have more than a few, it matters. Being able to make global
changes or make changes to some subset of the whole is important and our
control panel makes it easy to do both. Moreover, day or night, you'll
get competent telephone support from someone in the U.S. usually within
a few minutes. You can register there and host elsewhere, if you wish.
There is no obligation to host with us. For more complex hosting, such
as for Django, Plone, Ruby on Rails, or various Java application
servers, we tell our clients to talk to us first because we have better
options than the ones offered on that site.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 08:10:06 2009
From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 01:10:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Canadian domain registrars
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <600232.28489.qm@web59508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Don't forget Domains At Cost! That is where I had my .ca. The only problem is .ca is a pain to deal with cira.ca. I'm now using a free domain name.

Good luck on your search.
Abby




________________________________
From: Thomas Milne <tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org>
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 11:01:18 PM
Subject: [TLUG]: Canadian domain registrars

I'm looking at some Canadian domain name registrars, I see NamesPro,
Webnames, Domain.ca, etc. Any nightmares to avoid or positive
references?

Thanks!
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists



      __________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 09:37:42 2009
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 05:37:42 -0400
Subject: Recommendations Please: Music Player and Library Manager
In-Reply-To: <20090705144407.b5a5bad4.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A4FD15B.5010706@rogers.com>	<4A50D0C8.7030906@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090705144407.b5a5bad4.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <4A5468E6.8050901@rogers.com>

ted leslie wrote:
> ubuntu is thinking of replacing RB with banshee,
> i still use amarok (even thou i love mono),
> but banshee has a lot of resources behind it,
> and is really getting better and better quickly,
> if ubuntu doesnt put  banshee in as the default for their next release,
> it will probably be the release after that.
> I am getting close to switching to Banshee, just not in any rush,
> but eventually I will , as it just has too much momentum to be ignored.
>   
banshee started off looking good, I have encountered a serious problem.

For many CD's, banshee can't find the metadata. It found Diana Krall 
just fine, Dead Can't Dance,
but it could not find Janis Joplin.

Importing that album results in "Unknown files" that get clobbered  by 
the next unknown album. This
seems to be a serious bug (according to my Google searches).

Rythmbox never had a problem like this.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Stephen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 11:56:50 2009
From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:56:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Canadian domain registrars
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45955.192.168.20.1.1247054210.squirrel@nray.ca>

I've had a lot of luck with netfirms.ca

Stephen


On Tue, July 7, 2009 23:01, Thomas Milne wrote:
> I'm looking at some Canadian domain name registrars, I see NamesPro,
> Webnames, Domain.ca, etc. Any nightmares to avoid or positive
> references?
>
> Thanks!
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>


-- 
Stephen W. Clarke
Marketing and Communications Officer
Nray Services Inc.
56A Head Street
Dundas, ON L9H 3H7
CANADA

(905) 627-1302 x14

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 12:25:45 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 08:25:45 -0400
Subject: Is Bell Blocking Skype?
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907080525r45555107v9f552df442d1ea8b@mail.gmail.com>

As the subject says: "Is Bell blocking Skype", because I am unable to
connect at all, and I've tried a tonne of times..?!

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 12:40:54 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 08:40:54 -0400
Subject: Is Bell Blocking Skype?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907080525r45555107v9f552df442d1ea8b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907080525r45555107v9f552df442d1ea8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A5493D6.4060607@moores.ca>

I say Michael, you are having a difficult time. First downloading issues
now skype.

I think this suggests that possibly you issue is a little closer to home
than your ISP. Can't say what the issue is, but I might start with your
router and your wiring.

I once had a home made cable where I had one wire from each pair mixed
up. It caused a whole bunch of issues very much like you are
experiencing. Took a while to find too!

cheers,
darryl

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> As the subject says: "Is Bell blocking Skype", because I am unable to
> connect at all, and I've tried a tonne of times..?!
> 
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 13:38:50 2009
From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:38:50 -0400
Subject: Canadian domain registrars
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f9870c010907080638p1a1c7cb9ubdd93b333cefaa14@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Thomas
Milne<tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I'm looking at some Canadian domain name registrars, I see NamesPro,
> Webnames, Domain.ca, etc. Any nightmares to avoid or positive
> references?

Thomas,

I use registeryour.ca (http://www.registeryour.ca/) as the registrar
for my .ca domains. I've been happy with them.

-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
aka talexb
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 14:46:42 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:46:42 -0400
Subject: Is Bell Blocking Skype?
In-Reply-To: <4A5493D6.4060607-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907080525r45555107v9f552df442d1ea8b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A5493D6.4060607@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907080746r30db653me19028c587f3b86a@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Darryl Moore<darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I say Michael, you are having a difficult time. First downloading issues
> now skype.
>
> I think this suggests that possibly you issue is a little closer to home
> than your ISP. Can't say what the issue is, but I might start with your
> router and your wiring.
>
> I once had a home made cable where I had one wire from each pair mixed
> up. It caused a whole bunch of issues very much like you are
> experiencing. Took a while to find too!
>
> cheers,
> darryl
>
> Michael Lauzon wrote:
>> As the subject says: "Is Bell blocking Skype", because I am unable to
>> connect at all, and I've tried a tonne of times..?!

I am will bell sympatico, I use their portable wireless internet and
don't have issues with connection or using skype. if you're behind a
router trying eliminating as many variables and the work toward your
current setup.

-- 
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Rajinder Yadav
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 14:56:57 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:56:57 -0400
Subject: Canadian domain registrars
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907080756l3f2fb2a2qd72df40e4c9e5a16@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Thomas
Milne<tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I'm looking at some Canadian domain name registrars, I see NamesPro,
> Webnames, Domain.ca, etc. Any nightmares to avoid or positive
> references?

The official ICANN list is thus:
http://www.icann.org/en/registrars/accredited-list.html

There are 147 registrars that ICANN has accredited for TLDs like ORG,
INFO, NET, COM, and such...

CIRA has a similar number of registrars (that quite likely overlaps
quite a lot!):
http://ro.cira.ca/re_choose_en

I'm in the registry "biz," so can't comment on relative merits of registrars.
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Eddie Izzard  - "Never put a sock in a toaster." -
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/eddie_izzard.html
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 15:32:36 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:32:36 -0400
Subject: Canadian domain registrars
In-Reply-To: <600232.28489.qm-pvAMNDiD2Dj5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2@mail.gmail.com> <600232.28489.qm@web59508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A54BC14.7010103@telly.org>

Abidel Bassie-Cripps wrote:
> Don't forget Domains At Cost! That is where I had my .ca. The only
> problem is .ca is a pain to deal with cira.ca.

That "pain to deal with" is a consequence of .ca being one of the most
secure and trusted top level domains. CIRA is widely regarded as being
one of the most transparent, best-run registries on the planet. Its
requirement of accurate WHOIS information and its strict procedures for
ownership transfers serve to protect both domain owners and the
Internet-using public. Domain kiting and bad-faith use, commonplace in
the wild-west world that is .com, .org and .net, are very uncommon in
.ca, which also preserves what IMO is a reasonable balance between WHOIS
privacy and accountability.

For what it's worth, I've been maintaining my own domains through Tucows
for more than a decade and find their service quite nice (and extremely
ethical).
I've also used Domainsatcost.ca, which  is also good if you don't need
much support.

> I'm now using a free domain name.
Given that every registration requires a payment to ICANN and the
appropriate registry, there is no such thing as a "free" domain. You're
paying for it somewhere, often as part of a bundle that includes hosting.

I personally consider combo  hosting/domain deals to generally be a Very
Bad Idea. Be sure to check the details; in some of these packages you
don't even own "your" domain and are locked into the hosting service if
you want to keep using it. In many cases, transferring a domain to a
different registrar is deliberately made very difficult. I personally
think it is far better to keep your hosting and domain registration as
completely separate transactions, preferably with different vendors. It
may be more hassle but you know exactly what you have.


Evan Leibovitch
Chair, ICANN North American Region At-Large Organization


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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 15:35:01 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:35:01 -0400
Subject: Canadian domain registrars
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0907080756l3f2fb2a2qd72df40e4c9e5a16-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907072001k6c15cc2as6c40594b6d53dcd2@mail.gmail.com> <d6d6637f0907080756l3f2fb2a2qd72df40e4c9e5a16@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A54BCA5.4060808@telly.org>

Christopher Browne wrote:
> I'm in the registry "biz,"
>   

... not to be confused with being "in the .biz registry".

:-)


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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 15:43:59 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:43:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FYI, the new kernel newbie column is out
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081142590.17727@localhost>


  http://cli.gs/0LUN27

enjoy.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 16:09:43 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:09:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FYI, the new kernel newbie column is out
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081142590.17727@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081142590.17727@localhost>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907081158130.3733@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Robert P. J. Day <rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org>

|   http://cli.gs/0LUN27

     int err;
     /* registration takes a pointer and a name */
     err = register_this(ptr1, "skull");
     if (err) goto fail_this;
     err = register_that(ptr2, "skull");
     if (err) goto fail_that;
     err = register_those(ptr3, "skull");
     if (err) goto fail_those;
     return 0; /* success */

      fail_those: unregister_that(ptr2, "skull");
     fail_that: unregister_this(ptr1, "skull");
     fail_this: return err; /* propagate the error */

I think that the code would be clearer if written this way:

     int err;
     /* registration takes a pointer and a name */
     err = register_this(ptr1, "skull");
     if (!err) {
	 err = register_that(ptr2, "skull");
	 if (!err) {
	     err = register_those(ptr3, "skull");
	     if (!err)
		return 0; /* success */

	     unregister_that(ptr2, "skull");
	 }
	 unregister_this(ptr1, "skull");
     }
     return err; /* propagate the error */
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 16:15:49 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FYI, the new kernel newbie column is out
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907081158130.3733-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081142590.17727@localhost> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907081158130.3733@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081213150.18410@localhost>

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

> | From: Robert P. J. Day <rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org>
>
> |   http://cli.gs/0LUN27
>
>      int err;
>      /* registration takes a pointer and a name */
>      err = register_this(ptr1, "skull");
>      if (err) goto fail_this;
>      err = register_that(ptr2, "skull");
>      if (err) goto fail_that;
>      err = register_those(ptr3, "skull");
>      if (err) goto fail_those;
>      return 0; /* success */
>
>       fail_those: unregister_that(ptr2, "skull");
>      fail_that: unregister_this(ptr1, "skull");
>      fail_this: return err; /* propagate the error */
>
> I think that the code would be clearer if written this way:
>
>      int err;
>      /* registration takes a pointer and a name */
>      err = register_this(ptr1, "skull");
>      if (!err) {
> 	 err = register_that(ptr2, "skull");
> 	 if (!err) {
> 	     err = register_those(ptr3, "skull");
> 	     if (!err)
> 		return 0; /* success */
>
> 	     unregister_that(ptr2, "skull");
> 	 }
> 	 unregister_this(ptr1, "skull");
>      }
>      return err; /* propagate the error */

  i disagree, and there's actually a tradition in modules to use the
"goto" to avoid precisely that cascading indentation.  in any event, i
was stealing straight out of the LDD3 book so i wanted to stick with
their content to allow readers to cross-reference and not have to
mentally translate.

  but even if that last part weren't an issue, i'd probably still go
with the original code.  it seems to be the standard and i find it
more readable.  but that's just me.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 16:20:12 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:20:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FYI, the new kernel newbie column is out
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907081158130.3733-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081142590.17727@localhost> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907081158130.3733@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081218570.18530@localhost>

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

> | From: Robert P. J. Day <rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org>
>
> |   http://cli.gs/0LUN27
>
>      int err;
>      /* registration takes a pointer and a name */
>      err = register_this(ptr1, "skull");
>      if (err) goto fail_this;
>      err = register_that(ptr2, "skull");
>      if (err) goto fail_that;
>      err = register_those(ptr3, "skull");
>      if (err) goto fail_those;
>      return 0; /* success */
>
>       fail_those: unregister_that(ptr2, "skull");
>      fail_that: unregister_this(ptr1, "skull");
>      fail_this: return err; /* propagate the error */
>
> I think that the code would be clearer if written this way:
>
>      int err;
>      /* registration takes a pointer and a name */
>      err = register_this(ptr1, "skull");
>      if (!err) {
> 	 err = register_that(ptr2, "skull");
> 	 if (!err) {
> 	     err = register_those(ptr3, "skull");
> 	     if (!err)
> 		return 0; /* success */
>
> 	     unregister_that(ptr2, "skull");
> 	 }
> 	 unregister_this(ptr1, "skull");
>      }
>      return err; /* propagate the error */

  BTW, if you want to see the perfect example of this sort of coding,
look at, say, the tail end of drivers/usb/gadget/dummy_hcd.c.  that
really is the kernel-approved way of doing things.

rday
--


========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 17:02:16 2009
From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:02:16 -0400
Subject: FYI, the new kernel newbie column is out
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081142590.17727@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081142590.17727@localhost>
Message-ID: <f9870c010907081002n6e99eb1bw1d893f92e42095d2@mail.gmail.com>

With a couple of years of Perl development on top of a couple more
years of C development, I'd propose using a table and some pointers:

======================================
/*  Prototype the registration functions. */

int register_this(void *, char *);
int register_that(void *, char *);
int register_those(void *, char *);
int unregister_this(void *, char *);
int unregister_that(void *, char *);

/*  Define a skull element structure that contains a void pointer for a return
 *  value, as well as pointers to the functions that register and unregister.
 *  */

typedef struct {
  void	*pv;
  int	(*pfiRegister)();
  int	(*pfiUnRegister)();
} SKULL_ELEMENT;

/*  Define an array of skull elements and initialize them with function
 *  pointers or NULLs. */

SKULL_ELEMENT astrStack[3] = {
  NULL, register_this,  unregister_this,
  NULL, register_that,  unregister_that,
  NULL, register_those, NULL,
};

int registration ()
{
    SKULL_ELEMENT *pstr;

    /*  Cycle through each the skull elements .. */

    for ( pstr = astrStack; pstr <= &astrStack[2]; pstr++ ) {

      /*  Try to register a skull using the appropriate pointer and function ..
       *  */

      int err = pstr->pfiRegister ( pstr->pv, "skull" );
      if ( err ) {

	/*  If there was an error, go back through the stack and unregister any
	 *  prior registrations, and return the error.  */

        while ( --pstr > astrStack ) {

	  pstr->pfiUnRegister ( pstr->pv, "skull" );

	}
	return ( err );
      }
    }

    /*  Success!  */

    return ( 0 );
}
======================================

I prefer the usage of 'if ( err )' rather than the somewhat
counterintuitive 'if ( !err )', but that's probably a matter for
discussion over beer, and not a mailing list.

It looks like this code tries to register with three different
functions, and if any of them fail, it unregisters from any that
succeeded. I note that there are no tests for failure on
unregistration -- perhaps they were removed from the example code for
clarity.

I didn't have the time to actually confirm that my code is
functionally the same, but it does compile. I think I last used
function pointers in C back in 1998, so I'm not positive I have the
syntax right, but the meaning should be clear enough.

Cheers,
Alex

-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
aka talexb
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From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 18:32:26 2009
From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:32:26 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
Message-ID: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th

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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 18:35:54 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:35:54 -0400
Subject: FYI, the new kernel newbie column is out
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081213150.18410@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081142590.17727@localhost>
	 <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907081158130.3733@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081213150.18410@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907081135ua9e4f3h16e41bd70f5695e9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Robert P. J. Day<rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
>
>> | From: Robert P. J. Day <rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org>
>>
>> | ? http://cli.gs/0LUN27
>>
>> ? ? ?int err;
>> ? ? ?/* registration takes a pointer and a name */
>> ? ? ?err = register_this(ptr1, "skull");
>> ? ? ?if (err) goto fail_this;
>> ? ? ?err = register_that(ptr2, "skull");
>> ? ? ?if (err) goto fail_that;
>> ? ? ?err = register_those(ptr3, "skull");
>> ? ? ?if (err) goto fail_those;
>> ? ? ?return 0; /* success */
>>
>> ? ? ? fail_those: unregister_that(ptr2, "skull");
>> ? ? ?fail_that: unregister_this(ptr1, "skull");
>> ? ? ?fail_this: return err; /* propagate the error */
>>
>> I think that the code would be clearer if written this way:
>>
>> ? ? ?int err;
>> ? ? ?/* registration takes a pointer and a name */
>> ? ? ?err = register_this(ptr1, "skull");
>> ? ? ?if (!err) {
>> ? ? ? ?err = register_that(ptr2, "skull");
>> ? ? ? ?if (!err) {
>> ? ? ? ? ? ?err = register_those(ptr3, "skull");
>> ? ? ? ? ? ?if (!err)
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? return 0; /* success */
>>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ?unregister_that(ptr2, "skull");
>> ? ? ? ?}
>> ? ? ? ?unregister_this(ptr1, "skull");
>> ? ? ?}
>> ? ? ?return err; /* propagate the error */
>
> ?i disagree, and there's actually a tradition in modules to use the
> "goto" to avoid precisely that cascading indentation. ?in any event, i
> was stealing straight out of the LDD3 book so i wanted to stick with
> their content to allow readers to cross-reference and not have to
> mentally translate.
>
> ?but even if that last part weren't an issue, i'd probably still go
> with the original code. ?it seems to be the standard and i find it
> more readable. ?but that's just me.
>
> rday

one thing that took me time and one eventually comes to this
conclusion as a developer is to follow the standard on the project
they are coding for. This helps to keep the format the same and makes
for more maintainable code. if someone knows the structure and format
of coding policy, then they don't need to stop and think when reading
your new code.

i.e. some functions will return 0 for success, while others will
return a non-zero for success, that's what happen when you don't stop
to see how other before you are doing things.

I personally do not like goto statements, but I agree with rday, it's
much easier to read code that is not nested. If that is the way the
kernel developer are doing things (using goto), then I would comply.

if kernel developers are doing core review I am sure they would point
certain things out and ask the submitter to modified before
acceptance? rday would know about that better than me since I've never
participate on a open source project myself.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 18:51:46 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:51:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:

> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th

  someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and not
much else.  so it's linux.  big deal.  not exactly a new "OS".

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 19:03:13 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:03:13 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907081203y75d8454xf1dee40066b15219@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Robert P. J. Day<rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
>
> ?someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
> distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and not
> much else. ?so it's linux. ?big deal. ?not exactly a new "OS".
>
> rday
> --
makes for good PR, sounds better to say new OS than stripped down
Linux.... get more bite when they hype up android i guess?

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 19:07:57 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:07:57 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
Message-ID: <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>

On 08/07/09 02:51 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
> 
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
> 
>   someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
> distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and not
> much else.  so it's linux.  big deal.  not exactly a new "OS".

To about 90% of the population, it is a new OS so why dismiss it? With
Google's market reach and PR, this is a very positive development.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 19:15:13 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:15:13 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907081203y75d8454xf1dee40066b15219-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost> <a05162a70907081203y75d8454xf1dee40066b15219@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A54F041.3000709@utoronto.ca>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Robert P. J. Day<rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
>>  someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
>> distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and not
>> much else.  so it's linux.  big deal.  not exactly a new "OS".
>>
>> rday
>> --
> makes for good PR, sounds better to say new OS than stripped down
> Linux.... get more bite when they hype up android i guess?

/me sheds a silent tear for the internets.

Hopefully with a linux base people will be able to edit their /etc/hosts 
file and block google analytics etc. from collecting more data than they 
already do about everyone. Same goes for being able to view tcp etc. 
traffic. Hopefully it doesn't call home at all.

Whatever it is google plans to do, the privacy implications are 
enormous. And frankly, it would take a lot on their part for me to not 
find them rather disturbing.

Jamon
--
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 19:16:30 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:16:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <4A54EE8D.5060506-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost> <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:

> On 08/07/09 02:51 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
> >
> >   someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
> > distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and
> > not much else.  so it's linux.  big deal.  not exactly a new "OS".
>
> To about 90% of the population, it is a new OS so why dismiss it?
> With Google's market reach and PR, this is a very positive
> development.

  i disagree, since that article makes no admission whatsoever that
their "new" OS is simply a repackaged linux.  while, *technically*,
they have the right to do that, *ethically*, i think it sucks.
they're announcing this exciting new development without giving credit
to all of the linux developers who made it possible.  i find that
incredibly sleazy.  but that's just me.

rday
--



========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
--
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 19:21:42 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:21:42 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <4A54EE8D.5060506-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
	 <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907081221n337edbe3m651deea474bd8a0f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 3:07 PM, CLIFFORD
ILKAY<clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 08/07/09 02:51 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
>>
>> ? someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
>> distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and not
>> much else. ?so it's linux. ?big deal. ?not exactly a new "OS".
>
> To about 90% of the population, it is a new OS so why dismiss it? With
> Google's market reach and PR, this is a very positive development.

I would dismiss it and Google just on the pure grounds of integrity,
taking credit for the works of other engineers, totally disrespectful,
they know better! That's whats sucks if their new OS is in fact a
stripped down linux.

btw, Wasn't java suppose to initially run everywhere and threaten Microsoft?

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 19:35:40 2009
From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:35:40 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
	<4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>
Message-ID: <20090708153540.277c28ad@gravid>

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:16:30 -0400 (EDT)
"Robert P. J. Day" <rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:

[snip]

> > To about 90% of the population, it is a new OS so why dismiss it?
> > With Google's market reach and PR, this is a very positive
> > development.
> 
>   i disagree, since that article makes no admission whatsoever that
> their "new" OS is simply a repackaged linux.  while, *technically*,
> they have the right to do that, *ethically*, i think it sucks.
> they're announcing this exciting new development without giving credit
> to all of the linux developers who made it possible.  i find that
> incredibly sleazy.  but that's just me.

Robert, 

I agree with the sleaziness of the /article/ for the reason you state,
but it's the New York Times journalists who are at fault, not Google.
The first link of the article refers to Google's actual announcement
[1], which mentions that: 

"The software architecture is simple ? Google Chrome running within a
new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel."

I'm sure their OS also contains all the GNU utilities and they should
probably give credit to those guys too. 

I agree with Jamon, though. I'd be very worried about privacy.. in
particular, I'd worry that the whole OS is a mechanism to collect more
private data from unaware users. I've managed to avoid gmail all this
time for these reasons. I wouldn't touch Chrome OS with a ten-foot
pole. Let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if the OS uploaded process
usage data to Big Brother. 

Marc

[1]
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html

-- 
Theory is when you know something, but it doesn't work. Practice
is when something works, but you don't know why. Programmers combine
theory and practice: Nothing works and they don't know why.
  -- Anonymous
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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 19:41:35 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:41:35 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost> <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>
Message-ID: <4A54F66F.8010302@dinamis.com>

On 08/07/09 03:16 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
> 
>> On 08/07/09 02:51 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>>> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
>>>   someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
>>> distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and
>>> not much else.  so it's linux.  big deal.  not exactly a new "OS".
>> To about 90% of the population, it is a new OS so why dismiss it?
>> With Google's market reach and PR, this is a very positive
>> development.
> 
>   i disagree, since that article makes no admission whatsoever that
> their "new" OS is simply a repackaged linux.  while, *technically*,
> they have the right to do that, *ethically*, i think it sucks.
> they're announcing this exciting new development without giving credit
> to all of the linux developers who made it possible.  i find that
> incredibly sleazy.  but that's just me.

First, there is the world of geeks, where operating systems are debated
with religious zeal. Then, there is the rest of the rest of the world,
which for the most part doesn't understand or care about the fuss over
operating systems, cost-of-ownership, vendor lock-in, or licensing
models. At this point, I'm not convinced that being based on Linux is a
positive to anyone other than the religious zealots. The masses aren't
going to be won over if it's mentioned that this "new" OS is based on
Linux. If they're going to be won over at all, and that's a dubious
proposition, they'll be won over on the basis of relieving some point of
pain for users and apparently, users have a very high threshold for pain
based upon how many of them use Windows without even considering any
alternatives.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 20:13:42 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:13:42 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
Message-ID: <4A54FDF6.7030605@rogers.com>

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
>
>   
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
>>     
>
>   someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
> distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and not
> much else.  so it's linux.  big deal.  not exactly a new "OS".
>
>
>   
Actually, Goolge says that too in their announcement:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html

"The software architecture is simple ? Google Chrome running within a
new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel"

--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 20:15:15 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:15:15 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost> <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>
Message-ID: <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com>

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
>
>   
>> On 08/07/09 02:51 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>>     
>>> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
>>>>         
>>>   someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
>>> distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and
>>> not much else.  so it's linux.  big deal.  not exactly a new "OS".
>>>       
>> To about 90% of the population, it is a new OS so why dismiss it?
>> With Google's market reach and PR, this is a very positive
>> development.
>>     
>
>   i disagree, since that article makes no admission whatsoever that
> their "new" OS is simply a repackaged linux.  while, *technically*,
> they have the right to do that, *ethically*, i think it sucks.
> they're announcing this exciting new development without giving credit
> to all of the linux developers who made it possible.  i find that
> incredibly sleazy.  but that's just me.
>   

The announcement from Google says "The software architecture is simple ?
Google Chrome running within a new windowing system on top of a Linux
kernel".

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 20:23:26 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:23:26 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <4A54FE53.3010307-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
	 <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>
	 <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 4:15 PM, James Knott<james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 08/07/09 02:51 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
>>>>>
>>>> ? someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
>>>> distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and
>>>> not much else. ?so it's linux. ?big deal. ?not exactly a new "OS".
>>>>
>>> To about 90% of the population, it is a new OS so why dismiss it?
>>> With Google's market reach and PR, this is a very positive
>>> development.
>>>
>>
>> ? i disagree, since that article makes no admission whatsoever that
>> their "new" OS is simply a repackaged linux. ?while, *technically*,
>> they have the right to do that, *ethically*, i think it sucks.
>> they're announcing this exciting new development without giving credit
>> to all of the linux developers who made it possible. ?i find that
>> incredibly sleazy. ?but that's just me.
>>
>
> The announcement from Google says "The software architecture is simple ?
> Google Chrome running within a new windowing system on top of a Linux
> kernel".
>
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

This is the real kicker about the new google OS, from their blog:

"And of course, these apps will run not only on Google Chrome OS, but
on any standards-based browser on Windows, Mac and Linux thereby
giving developers the largest user base of any platform"

So really google OS = linux kernel + browser, nothing innovative about
this or even worth talking about. More like chome + linux and they
call it an OS =)

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 20:46:30 2009
From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:46:30 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
	 <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>
	 <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com>
	 <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1247085990.13756.13.camel@jimslaptop>



On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 16:23 -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 4:15 PM, James Knott<james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 08/07/09 02:51 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, jim wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/technology/companies/08operate.html?th&emc=th
> >>>>>
> >>>>   someone on the fedora list claims that all this is is a google
> >>>> distro of linux, stripped down to host their chrome browser and
> >>>> not much else.  so it's linux.  big deal.  not exactly a new "OS".
> >>>>
> >>> To about 90% of the population, it is a new OS so why dismiss it?
> >>> With Google's market reach and PR, this is a very positive
> >>> development.
> >>>
> >>
> >>   i disagree, since that article makes no admission whatsoever that
> >> their "new" OS is simply a repackaged linux.  while, *technically*,
> >> they have the right to do that, *ethically*, i think it sucks.
> >> they're announcing this exciting new development without giving credit
> >> to all of the linux developers who made it possible.  i find that
> >> incredibly sleazy.  but that's just me.
> >>
> >
> > The announcement from Google says "The software architecture is simple ?
> > Google Chrome running within a new windowing system on top of a Linux
> > kernel".
> >
> > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> >
> 
> This is the real kicker about the new google OS, from their blog:
> 
> "And of course, these apps will run not only on Google Chrome OS, but
> on any standards-based browser on Windows, Mac and Linux thereby
> giving developers the largest user base of any platform"
> 
> So really google OS = linux kernel + browser, nothing innovative about
> this or even worth talking about. More like chome + linux and they
> call it an OS =)

Sounds a bit like Splashtop http://www.splashtop.com/ with a Chrome
browser. With the exception that splashtop puts some of it's code in the
BIOS. 


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From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 21:40:26 2009
From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 17:40:26 -0400
Subject: usb wireless networking for notebook
Message-ID: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0@mail.gmail.com>

I've totally given up on the Broadcom crap. Some people just don't
know how to make a simple network device.

Anyhow, someone suggested i get a usb wireless card for the notebook,
but I've no experience with those at all. I wonder if anyone can point
me to a wireless add-on that is easily recognized and supported under
Linux.

Thanks!
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 21:47:46 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:47:46 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>	 <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>	 <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com> <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A551402.2080507@rogers.com>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> This is the real kicker about the new google OS, from their blog:
>
> "And of course, these apps will run not only on Google Chrome OS, but
> on any standards-based browser on Windows, Mac and Linux thereby
> giving developers the largest user base of any platform"
>
> So really google OS = linux kernel + browser, nothing innovative about
> this or even worth talking about. More like chome + linux and they
> call it an OS =)
>
>   
Actually, this is what Microsoft was fearing, when they attacked
Netscape.  Since the browser is being used, it can run anything a
browser can run.  This isn't just web sites, but includes Java etc. 
Think of one situation where this might be useful.  Many people fire up
their computer to simply surf the web.  This could boot up much faster,
similar to those mom boards that already boot into Linux, for such things.


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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 22:27:50 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:27:50 -0400
Subject: usb wireless networking for notebook
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A551D66.6020303@utoronto.ca>

Thomas Milne wrote:
> I've totally given up on the Broadcom crap. Some people just don't
> know how to make a simple network device.
> 
> Anyhow, someone suggested i get a usb wireless card for the notebook,
> but I've no experience with those at all. I wonder if anyone can point
> me to a wireless add-on that is easily recognized and supported under
> Linux.

http://linux-wless.passys.nl/query_hostif.php?hostif=USB

ralink chipsets show decent support across the board, and I'm sure you 
can find one of the adaptors listed there for ~$20 at most computer shops.

Jamon
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From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 23:08:31 2009
From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:08:31 -0400
Subject: usb wireless networking for notebook
In-Reply-To: <4A551D66.6020303-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A551D66.6020303@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <cc63eb120907081608l3418c13aga19785f8860e7d80@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Jamon Camisso<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Thomas Milne wrote:
>>
>> I've totally given up on the Broadcom crap. Some people just don't
>> know how to make a simple network device.
>>
>> Anyhow, someone suggested i get a usb wireless card for the notebook,
>> but I've no experience with those at all. I wonder if anyone can point
>> me to a wireless add-on that is easily recognized and supported under
>> Linux.
>
> http://linux-wless.passys.nl/query_hostif.php?hostif=USB
>
> ralink chipsets show decent support across the board, and I'm sure you can
> find one of the adaptors listed there for ~$20 at most computer shops.
>
One thing worries me about this list: the devices that are labelled as
'green', most show links to driver downloads and such. Are there no
usb wireless adaptors that are supported natively in the kernel?

I guess it's been so long since I've used Windows, I've become
somewhat suspicious of the concept of going and downloading my own
drivers ;)

Thanks!
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 23:39:40 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:39:40 -0400
Subject: usb wireless networking for notebook
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907081608l3418c13aga19785f8860e7d80-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A551D66.6020303@utoronto.ca> <cc63eb120907081608l3418c13aga19785f8860e7d80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A552E3C.40102@utoronto.ca>

Thomas Milne wrote:
>> http://linux-wless.passys.nl/query_hostif.php?hostif=USB
>>
>> ralink chipsets show decent support across the board, and I'm sure you can
>> find one of the adaptors listed there for ~$20 at most computer shops.
>>
> One thing worries me about this list: the devices that are labelled as
> 'green', most show links to driver downloads and such. Are there no
> usb wireless adaptors that are supported natively in the kernel?
> 
> I guess it's been so long since I've used Windows, I've become
> somewhat suspicious of the concept of going and downloading my own
> drivers ;)


rt2x00 chipsets (rt2400, rt2500, rt2570) are all in the kernel and have 
been for a year and a bit. not sure about rt61 and rt73, but they're 
part of the rt2x00 project (http://rt2x00.serialmonkey.com) so I'd 
imagine that they are as well. You'll have exactly zero problems with them.

Jamon
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From tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul  8 23:45:44 2009
From: tbrucemilne-TcoXwbchSccMMYnvST3LeUB+6BGkLq7r at public.gmane.org (Thomas Milne)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:45:44 -0400
Subject: usb wireless networking for notebook
In-Reply-To: <4A552E3C.40102-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A551D66.6020303@utoronto.ca>
	 <cc63eb120907081608l3418c13aga19785f8860e7d80@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A552E3C.40102@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <cc63eb120907081645o53bc6f3fva432e991e4df338f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Jamon Camisso<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Thomas Milne wrote:
>>>
>>> http://linux-wless.passys.nl/query_hostif.php?hostif=USB
>>>
>>> ralink chipsets show decent support across the board, and I'm sure you
>>> can
>>> find one of the adaptors listed there for ~$20 at most computer shops.
>>>
>> One thing worries me about this list: the devices that are labelled as
>> 'green', most show links to driver downloads and such. Are there no
>> usb wireless adaptors that are supported natively in the kernel?
>>
>> I guess it's been so long since I've used Windows, I've become
>> somewhat suspicious of the concept of going and downloading my own
>> drivers ;)
>
>
> rt2x00 chipsets (rt2400, rt2500, rt2570) are all in the kernel and have been
> for a year and a bit. not sure about rt61 and rt73, but they're part of the
> rt2x00 project (http://rt2x00.serialmonkey.com) so I'd imagine that they are
> as well. You'll have exactly zero problems with them.
>

Awesome, man, thanks for the tips and the reassurance. My paranoia
about support also stems from my experience over the past week and a
half with a Broadcom wireless device. I have nightmares, cold sweats,
the whole thing ;)
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 00:38:18 2009
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:38:18 -0400
Subject: Linux compatability of Acer Aspireone AO751H netbook?
Message-ID: <20090709003817.GD9136@waltdnes.org>

  The 7/9/10 inch ASUS EEE models have seemed too small for me.  The
11.6" Acer Aspireone AO751H series with 1366x768 screen looks like the
best compromise for my needs.  My question is whether anyone here has
successfully installed linux (specifically Gentoo) on it after wiping
Windows.  I'm looking at the following model...
http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=024322&cid=896.862.670

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org>
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 04:51:45 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 00:51:45 -0400
Subject: Is Bell Blocking Skype?
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907080746r30db653me19028c587f3b86a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907080525r45555107v9f552df442d1ea8b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A5493D6.4060607@moores.ca>
	 <a05162a70907080746r30db653me19028c587f3b86a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907082151h5c79844ak23ef8fe408fa73ca@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Rajinder Yadav<devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Darryl Moore<darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> I say Michael, you are having a difficult time. First downloading issues
>> now skype.
>>
>> I think this suggests that possibly you issue is a little closer to home
>> than your ISP. Can't say what the issue is, but I might start with your
>> router and your wiring.
>>
>> I once had a home made cable where I had one wire from each pair mixed
>> up. It caused a whole bunch of issues very much like you are
>> experiencing. Took a while to find too!
>>
>> cheers,
>> darryl
>>
>> Michael Lauzon wrote:
>>> As the subject says: "Is Bell blocking Skype", because I am unable to
>>> connect at all, and I've tried a tonne of times..?!
>
> I am will bell sympatico, I use their portable wireless internet and
> don't have issues with connection or using skype. if you're behind a
> router trying eliminating as many variables and the work toward your
> current setup.
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



Indeed. It's usually a good idea to eliminate what suspects you have
control over such as your router, etc, before blaming the ISP. If
you've got more than one PC, and/or can connect directly to the modem,
give that a shot first. You could always invite a buddy over with
his/her laptop to test things out too

A lot of ISP's have been up to unsavory practices lately (particularly
Bell), but they're not the root of *all* evil... just a good portion
of it online ;-)
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 05:01:47 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:01:47 -0400
Subject: usb wireless networking for notebook
In-Reply-To: <4A551D66.6020303-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A551D66.6020303@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907082201y4ebbea97t588ab113982ea77c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Jamon Camisso<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Thomas Milne wrote:
>>
>> I've totally given up on the Broadcom crap. Some people just don't
>> know how to make a simple network device.
>>
>> Anyhow, someone suggested i get a usb wireless card for the notebook,
>> but I've no experience with those at all. I wonder if anyone can point
>> me to a wireless add-on that is easily recognized and supported under
>> Linux.
>
> http://linux-wless.passys.nl/query_hostif.php?hostif=USB
>
> ralink chipsets show decent support across the board, and I'm sure you can
> find one of the adaptors listed there for ~$20 at most computer shops.
>
> Jamon
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

I dealt with issues on my Broadcomm for about 6 months before the "WL"
driver got it working properly. Before that I used a little gumstick
"TP-Link" adaptor.
It's just slightly bigger than a USB thumb drive, but has a pretty
good signal and works just fine in 'nix with a minimum of fuss.

Specifically, mine's a "TL-WN321G" and it uses the "rt73usb" driver. I
believe I bought it from "Fortune Computers" around College and
Spadina

http://www.tp-link.com/products/product_des.asp?id=47


Anyone else tried TP-Link stuff? I had a co-worker who had one of
their routers and said that it was cheap and worked better than most
of the more expensive stuff he tried before. My own experience is only
with this USB-Wireless adaptor though/
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 06:01:51 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 02:01:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <20090708153540.277c28ad@gravid>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost> <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost> <20090708153540.277c28ad@gravid>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090201250.24763@localhost>

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Marc Lanctot wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:16:30 -0400 (EDT)
> "Robert P. J. Day" <rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > To about 90% of the population, it is a new OS so why dismiss
> > > it? With Google's market reach and PR, this is a very positive
> > > development.
> >
> >   i disagree, since that article makes no admission whatsoever
> > that their "new" OS is simply a repackaged linux.  while,
> > *technically*, they have the right to do that, *ethically*, i
> > think it sucks. they're announcing this exciting new development
> > without giving credit to all of the linux developers who made it
> > possible.  i find that incredibly sleazy.  but that's just me.
>
> Robert,
>
> I agree with the sleaziness of the /article/ for the reason you
> state, but it's the New York Times journalists who are at fault, not
> Google. The first link of the article refers to Google's actual
> announcement [1], which mentions that:
>
> "The software architecture is simple ? Google Chrome running within
> a new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel."
>
> I'm sure their OS also contains all the GNU utilities and they
> should probably give credit to those guys too.

  you're right -- i stand corrected.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================

From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 06:07:28 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 02:07:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>  <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>  <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>  <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>  <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com>
 <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090205000.24763@localhost>

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Rajinder Yadav wrote:

> This is the real kicker about the new google OS, from their blog:
>
> "And of course, these apps will run not only on Google Chrome OS,
> but on any standards-based browser on Windows, Mac and Linux thereby
> giving developers the largest user base of any platform"
>
> So really google OS = linux kernel + browser, nothing innovative
> about this or even worth talking about. More like chome + linux and
> they call it an OS =)

  amusingly, i wanted to see the "chromium" browser in action on my
f11 x86_64 laptop, so i went looking for a fedora rpm.  i could find
it only in i586 form, which would have required installing a buttload
of i586 rpms for no good reason.

  so i grabbed the source rpm and tried to build it for x86_64 -- epic
fail, since the spec file architectures are only arm and ix86.  in
short, i can't get a native x86_64 build of that browser.  what's up
with *that*?

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 06:17:44 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 02:17:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <4A551402.2080507-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>  <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>  <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>  <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>  <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com> <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com>
 <4A551402.2080507@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090216060.24763@localhost>

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, James Knott wrote:

> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> > This is the real kicker about the new google OS, from their blog:
> >
> > "And of course, these apps will run not only on Google Chrome OS,
> > but on any standards-based browser on Windows, Mac and Linux
> > thereby giving developers the largest user base of any platform"
> >
> > So really google OS = linux kernel + browser, nothing innovative
> > about this or even worth talking about. More like chome + linux
> > and they call it an OS =)
> >
> Actually, this is what Microsoft was fearing, when they attacked
> Netscape.  Since the browser is being used, it can run anything a
> browser can run.  This isn't just web sites, but includes Java etc.
> Think of one situation where this might be useful.  Many people fire
> up their computer to simply surf the web.  This could boot up much
> faster, similar to those mom boards that already boot into Linux,
> for such things.

  and a lot of folks only need something that browses, emails and --
ideally -- has as MS-compatible office suite and they're set to go.
and given the apparent pricing for windows 7:

  http://cli.gs/zVB5ym

the final difference in cost for a netbook could be substantial.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 07:10:51 2009
From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 03:10:51 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090205000.24763@localhost>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost>
	 <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost>
	 <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com>
	 <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090205000.24763@localhost>
Message-ID: <1247123451.9681.21.camel@jimslaptop>


> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> 
> > This is the real kicker about the new google OS, from their blog:
> >
> > "And of course, these apps will run not only on Google Chrome OS,
> > but on any standards-based browser on Windows, Mac and Linux thereby
> > giving developers the largest user base of any platform"
> >
> > So really google OS = linux kernel + browser, nothing innovative
> > about this or even worth talking about. More like chome + linux and
> > they call it an OS =)
> 
>   amusingly, i wanted to see the "chromium" browser in action on my
> f11 x86_64 laptop, so i went looking for a fedora rpm.  i could find
> it only in i586 form, which would have required installing a buttload
> of i586 rpms for no good reason.
> 
>   so i grabbed the source rpm and tried to build it for x86_64 -- epic
> fail, since the spec file architectures are only arm and ix86.  in
> short, i can't get a native x86_64 build of that browser.  what's up
> with *that*?

You can get a 64 bit Debian package here if that is of any use to you.
http://dev.chromium.org/getting-involved/dev-channel


jim
> 
> rday
> --
> 
> ========================================================================
> Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
> 
>         Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.
> 
> Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
> Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
> Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
> ========================================================================
> --
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> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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> 

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 12:24:13 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:24:13 -0400
Subject: Is Bell Blocking Skype?
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907082151h5c79844ak23ef8fe408fa73ca-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907080525r45555107v9f552df442d1ea8b@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A5493D6.4060607@moores.ca>	 <a05162a70907080746r30db653me19028c587f3b86a@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0907082151h5c79844ak23ef8fe408fa73ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A55E16D.8080501@rogers.com>

Tyler Aviss wrote:
> A lot of ISP's have been up to unsavory practices lately (particularly
> Bell), but they're not the root of *all* evil... just a good portion
> of it online ;-)
>   

Correction:
"but they're not the /root of *all* evil"  ;-)


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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 12:29:00 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:29:00 -0400
Subject: Is Bell Blocking Skype?
In-Reply-To: <4A55E16D.8080501-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907080525r45555107v9f552df442d1ea8b@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A5493D6.4060607@moores.ca>	 <a05162a70907080746r30db653me19028c587f3b86a@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0907082151h5c79844ak23ef8fe408fa73ca@mail.gmail.com> <4A55E16D.8080501@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4A55E28C.20501@moores.ca>



James Knott wrote:
> Tyler Aviss wrote:
>> A lot of ISP's have been up to unsavory practices lately (particularly
>> Bell), but they're not the root of *all* evil... just a good portion
>> of it online ;-)
>>   
> 
> Correction:
> "but they're not the /root of *all* evil"  ;-)
> 
> 

sudo evil then ?
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 14:05:00 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:05:00 -0700
Subject: Is Bell Blocking Skype?
In-Reply-To: <4A55E28C.20501-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907080525r45555107v9f552df442d1ea8b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A5493D6.4060607@moores.ca>
	 <a05162a70907080746r30db653me19028c587f3b86a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <3a97ef0907082151h5c79844ak23ef8fe408fa73ca@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A55E16D.8080501@rogers.com> <4A55E28C.20501@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907090705i18f4db6wb7b5df067abe50ef@mail.gmail.com>

# evil
evil: command not found

# ./evil
./evil: No such file or directory

# sudo apt-get install evil
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Get:1 http://partners.microsoft.com bell/main evil 6.6-6 [138kB]


AHAAAAA....


On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:29 AM, Darryl Moore<darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>
> James Knott wrote:
>> Tyler Aviss wrote:
>>> A lot of ISP's have been up to unsavory practices lately (particularly
>>> Bell), but they're not the root of *all* evil... just a good portion
>>> of it online ;-)
>>>
>>
>> Correction:
>> "but they're not the /root of *all* evil" ?;-)
>>
>>
>
> sudo evil then ?
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 15:17:25 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:17:25 -0400
Subject: Linux compatability of Acer Aspireone AO751H netbook?
In-Reply-To: <20090709003817.GD9136-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090709003817.GD9136@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907090817l260b1cbfh5858b51fe28ffc84@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/8 Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org>:
> ?The 7/9/10 inch ASUS EEE models have seemed too small for me. ?The
> 11.6" Acer Aspireone AO751H series with 1366x768 screen looks like the
> best compromise for my needs. ?My question is whether anyone here has
> successfully installed linux (specifically Gentoo) on it after wiping
> Windows. ?I'm looking at the following model...
> http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=024322&cid=896.862.670

I agree with you completely about the screen - which is why I'm still
using a Dell m700 from 2005 (12" 1280x800 screen).  The Dell
unfortunately has a 92% keyboard, and that's another place this Acer
wins: it's a 100% keyboard.  So my initial reaction was "hey, this
looks great," but then I noticed the processor.  Big battery and slow
processor = (probably) great run-time, but that "slow processor" part
is definitely putting me off.  I really wish they were throwing the
dual core Atom in some of these things (although you'd pay for it in
shorter battery life).  I guess I'll stay with the Dell a bit longer.

Other than the screen size and a slightly slower version of the Atom,
it looks pretty much identical to the 10" Aspireones, which are very
common.  You could probably get a good read on this one by checking on
the 10" version Linux compatibility?  Or maybe see if Canada Computers
will let you boot the latest Knoppix disc in their demo model?

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 15:23:16 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:23:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Linux compatability of Acer Aspireone AO751H netbook?
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907090817l260b1cbfh5858b51fe28ffc84-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090709003817.GD9136@waltdnes.org> <1f13df280907090817l260b1cbfh5858b51fe28ffc84@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907091122140.9786@localhost>

On Thu, 9 Jul 2009, Giles Orr wrote:

> 2009/7/8 Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org>:
> > ?The 7/9/10 inch ASUS EEE models have seemed too small for me. ?The
> > 11.6" Acer Aspireone AO751H series with 1366x768 screen looks like the
> > best compromise for my needs. ?My question is whether anyone here has
> > successfully installed linux (specifically Gentoo) on it after wiping
> > Windows. ?I'm looking at the following model...
> > http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=024322&cid=896.862.670
>
> I agree with you completely about the screen - which is why I'm
> still using a Dell m700 from 2005 (12" 1280x800 screen).  The Dell
> unfortunately has a 92% keyboard, and that's another place this Acer
> wins: it's a 100% keyboard.  So my initial reaction was "hey, this
> looks great," but then I noticed the processor.  Big battery and
> slow processor = (probably) great run-time, but that "slow
> processor" part is definitely putting me off.  I really wish they
> were throwing the dual core Atom in some of these things (although
> you'd pay for it in shorter battery life).  I guess I'll stay with
> the Dell a bit longer.
>
> Other than the screen size and a slightly slower version of the
> Atom, it looks pretty much identical to the 10" Aspireones, which
> are very common.  You could probably get a good read on this one by
> checking on the 10" version Linux compatibility?  Or maybe see if
> Canada Computers will let you boot the latest Knoppix disc in their
> demo model?

  i don't think this one's available yet, but it looks sweet:

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/HP-Mini-5101/

i'm a big fan of the higher res (1366x768) displays.

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Linked In:                             http://www.linkedin.com/in/rpjday
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
========================================================================

From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 15:46:05 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:46:05 -0400
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
Message-ID: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com>

I am not sure if anyone is already doing this. What I would like to
eventually provide for the Linux base I am working on putting together
is a way for the user to download modules with an integrated bit
torrent download manager. (For security reasons the torrent would only
use known trusted servers.)

I am planning on building a core Linux base that could be quickly
downloaded. Then during the install phase or after, allow the user to
customize their download of extras using a bit torrent server.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 17:02:40 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 13:02:40 -0400
Subject: Small January NewTLUG update
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907091002y71c5c707ne5d4275ee6f36c75@mail.gmail.com>

Back in January when I did my talk on portable media players for
NewTLUG I noted that when it came to ripping commercial CD's on my
Linux machine I had run across a total of one "commercial" CD that had
not been in the CD database (http://www.freedb.org/) The non-listed CD
was from a Toronto concert, and that only some 200 copies of the CD
had been made. Thanks to my efforts that small run CD is now in the CD
database... :-) .

Any event, thanks to my brother (who has been teaching in South Korea)
I have now run across a 2nd commercial CD that is not in the CD
database, and I have not been able to enter the data into the
database... The CD is titled "Korea Team Fighting" and as far as I can
tell from the photos is a collection of songs to encourage / support
South Korea's national soccer team. So, not only can I not read most
of the information on the CD package but, the package lists four songs
while the CD player software shows 8 tracks.

Bottom line, in playing completist I would like "Korea Team Fighting"
in the FreeDB, but I need someone who can understand written and
spoken Korean...

Thanks.

Colin McGregor
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 18:39:53 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 14:39:53 -0400
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090709183953.GE15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 11:46:05AM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> I am not sure if anyone is already doing this. What I would like to
> eventually provide for the Linux base I am working on putting together
> is a way for the user to download modules with an integrated bit
> torrent download manager. (For security reasons the torrent would only
> use known trusted servers.)
> 
> I am planning on building a core Linux base that could be quickly
> downloaded. Then during the install phase or after, allow the user to
> customize their download of extras using a bit torrent server.

People have talked about this for debian many many times in the past,
and everytime it is pointed out taht bittorrent is a lousy method for
updates because:

Packages are obviously compressed (it would be stupid not to).  This means
that every time a new version of the package is made, there is nothing
reuseable from the old one to make bittorrent more efficient (same is
true for rsync unfortuantely).  In the case of rsync there have been
talk of extending gzip in a way that allows predictable blocks to occour
that would result in identical compressed blocks if only part of a
package changes.  Not sure where that ever went.

Who is going to keep all the packages around just to feed bittorrent
once they have installed them?  What a waste of disk space.

So really, other than saving you bandwidth (assuming it is your
distribution on your server), where is the benefit to anyone else?

Oh and if you want to see what bittorrent does to server load and
resources, have a look at the info from last years linux symposium from
one of the admins of mirrors.kernel.org.  It showed just how horrible
and wasteful bittorrent is for distribution.  If you have the choice
of having some decent http/ftp servers and using bittorrent, then the
http/ftp servers will always be far faster and more efficient.  Bittorrent
is only good when you have absolutely no way to do any real servers,
or you are dealing with something not very popular or at least very
short lived.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 18:49:20 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 14:49:20 -0400
Subject: Linux compatability of Acer Aspireone AO751H netbook?
In-Reply-To: <20090709003817.GD9136-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090709003817.GD9136@waltdnes.org>
Message-ID: <20090709184920.GF15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 08:38:18PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote:
>   The 7/9/10 inch ASUS EEE models have seemed too small for me.  The
> 11.6" Acer Aspireone AO751H series with 1366x768 screen looks like the
> best compromise for my needs.  My question is whether anyone here has
> successfully installed linux (specifically Gentoo) on it after wiping
> Windows.  I'm looking at the following model...
> http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=024322&cid=896.862.670

It uses the same intel graphics chip from hell that will not work nicely
with linux.  Some of the 10" Dell's use the same one.

The chip is the SCH Poulsbo, and while it may get good linux support
some day, that day sure hasn't happened yet.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 19:15:00 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:15:00 -0400
Subject: usb wireless networking for notebook
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090709191459.GG15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 05:40:26PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote:
> I've totally given up on the Broadcom crap. Some people just don't
> know how to make a simple network device.

Well they probably know how to make them.  What broadcom doesn't know
is how to deal with customers (as in end users, not the customers that
pays money directly to broadcom, although they aren't great at dealing
with that kind either).  THey also don't know how to document things to
make them useable.

> Anyhow, someone suggested i get a usb wireless card for the notebook,
> but I've no experience with those at all. I wonder if anyone can point
> me to a wireless add-on that is easily recognized and supported under
> Linux.

Well I have a ralink card in one PC, and I know they make usb chips too.
There is a site with a list of ralink based devices which can be handy
for shopping from.

Surprisingly under windows 7 on the PC in question, the wireless card
was not supported, since apparently linksys feels no need to release
a driver for a 3 year old card for anything other than windows XP.
Downloading a vista driver from ralink and forcing it to install made
the card work perfectly.  Under linux it simply works of course.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 19:19:21 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:19:21 -0400
Subject: usb wireless networking for notebook
In-Reply-To: <cc63eb120907081608l3418c13aga19785f8860e7d80-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <cc63eb120907081440g52c153c6le6e3462ccd64eb0@mail.gmail.com> <4A551D66.6020303@utoronto.ca> <cc63eb120907081608l3418c13aga19785f8860e7d80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090709191921.GH15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 07:08:31PM -0400, Thomas Milne wrote:
> One thing worries me about this list: the devices that are labelled as
> 'green', most show links to driver downloads and such. Are there no
> usb wireless adaptors that are supported natively in the kernel?
> 
> I guess it's been so long since I've used Windows, I've become
> somewhat suspicious of the concept of going and downloading my own
> drivers ;)

Well current kernel versions include:

rt2x00usb
rt2500usb
rt2800usb
rt73usb

So ralink looks fairly well supported out of the box these days.

The 2x00 drivers are the new development, rather than the legacy code
ralink originally released.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 19:26:07 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:26:07 -0400
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
In-Reply-To: <20090709183953.GE15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090709183953.GE15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907091226x84fc2d0n5112c5bd1d4e60ad@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 11:46:05AM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> I am not sure if anyone is already doing this. What I would like to
>> eventually provide for the Linux base I am working on putting together
>> is a way for the user to download modules with an integrated bit
>> torrent download manager. (For security reasons the torrent would only
>> use known trusted servers.)
>>
>> I am planning on building a core Linux base that could be quickly
>> downloaded. Then during the install phase or after, allow the user to
>> customize their download of extras using a bit torrent server.
>
> People have talked about this for debian many many times in the past,
> and everytime it is pointed out taht bittorrent is a lousy method for
> updates because:
>
> Packages are obviously compressed (it would be stupid not to). ?This means
> that every time a new version of the package is made, there is nothing
> reuseable from the old one to make bittorrent more efficient (same is
> true for rsync unfortuantely). ?In the case of rsync there have been
> talk of extending gzip in a way that allows predictable blocks to occour
> that would result in identical compressed blocks if only part of a
> package changes. ?Not sure where that ever went.
>
> Who is going to keep all the packages around just to feed bittorrent
> once they have installed them? ?What a waste of disk space.
>
> So really, other than saving you bandwidth (assuming it is your
> distribution on your server), where is the benefit to anyone else?
>
> Oh and if you want to see what bittorrent does to server load and
> resources, have a look at the info from last years linux symposium from
> one of the admins of mirrors.kernel.org. ?It showed just how horrible
> and wasteful bittorrent is for distribution. ?If you have the choice
> of having some decent http/ftp servers and using bittorrent, then the
> http/ftp servers will always be far faster and more efficient. ?Bittorrent
> is only good when you have absolutely no way to do any real servers,
> or you are dealing with something not very popular or at least very
> short lived.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen

I am trying to understand what you're sharing, and with my limited
knowledge I can only imagine how things (should) work from a higher
level.

About wasted space, not quite sure I follow. If Package A was made
download-able i.e. gcc4.3, it would have to reside on a server and one
or more mirror, which is how things are done today. If you introduce a
bit torrent (BT), where does the wasted space come from?

Overall throughput of a BT download should be faster when connecting
to several slow servers, if compared to ftp/http connected to a single
slow server.

If ftp/http downloads from a slow server or BT downloads how does that
make the server load any different? I am not saying it does not, just
doesn't seem to make sense =)

I can see the issue of logistic to make sure all the mirror servers
are always up to date with the main package server. Otherwise BT will
not deliver on its throughput.

About a decent server being faster than BT. Would you know if it's the
norm today that "most" (mirror) servers out there are decent? What
would constitute decent in terms of kb/sec I am wondering, roughly the
top speed of a typical home internet connection? If so than the
argument for BT is mute.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 19:36:11 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:36:11 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090205000.24763@localhost>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost> <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost> <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com> <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090205000.24763@localhost>
Message-ID: <20090709193611.GI15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 02:07:28AM -0400, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>   amusingly, i wanted to see the "chromium" browser in action on my
> f11 x86_64 laptop, so i went looking for a fedora rpm.  i could find
> it only in i586 form, which would have required installing a buttload
> of i586 rpms for no good reason.
> 
>   so i grabbed the source rpm and tried to build it for x86_64 -- epic
> fail, since the spec file architectures are only arm and ix86.  in
> short, i can't get a native x86_64 build of that browser.  what's up
> with *that*?

Only linux users, server operators and a few hardcode gamers have realized
we have 64bit machines available. :)

Oh and maybe content creation folks (3D graphics/rendering) and some
CAD users.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 19:38:24 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:38:24 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <1247123451.9681.21.camel@jimslaptop>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost> <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost> <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com> <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090205000.24763@localhost> <1247123451.9681.21.camel@jimslaptop>
Message-ID: <20090709193823.GJ15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 03:10:51AM -0400, jim wrote:
> You can get a 64 bit Debian package here if that is of any use to you.
> http://dev.chromium.org/getting-involved/dev-channel

Interesting to see debian (and ubuntu) as the only linux distributions
mentioned.  That's rather unusual.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 19:47:42 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:47:42 -0400
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907091226x84fc2d0n5112c5bd1d4e60ad-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com> <20090709183953.GE15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907091226x84fc2d0n5112c5bd1d4e60ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090709194742.GK15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 03:26:07PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> I am trying to understand what you're sharing, and with my limited
> knowledge I can only imagine how things (should) work from a higher
> level.
> 
> About wasted space, not quite sure I follow. If Package A was made
> download-able i.e. gcc4.3, it would have to reside on a server and one
> or more mirror, which is how things are done today. If you introduce a
> bit torrent (BT), where does the wasted space come from?

Bittorrent is only useful if lots of users participate.  To participate
they have to have the files to share with others.  That means they have
to keep the files after they download and install them.  If they don't
then they won't do any sharing as soon as they are down downloading and
installing them.

> Overall throughput of a BT download should be faster when connecting
> to several slow servers, if compared to ftp/http connected to a single
> slow server.

Not even close.  The server using ftp/http can use the kernel's sendfile
function and offload the whole job to the kernel.  bittorrent requires
the cpu to checksum each block and packetize it, which means entirely
userspace.  There is no server capable of saturating a 1gbit link with
bittorrent.  It is trivial to do so for ftp and http.

> If ftp/http downloads from a slow server or BT downloads how does that
> make the server load any different? I am not saying it does not, just
> doesn't seem to make sense =)

bittorrent has overhead, so it requires more bandwidth than just sending
the files would.

> I can see the issue of logistic to make sure all the mirror servers
> are always up to date with the main package server. Otherwise BT will
> not deliver on its throughput.
> 
> About a decent server being faster than BT. Would you know if it's the
> norm today that "most" (mirror) servers out there are decent? What
> would constitute decent in terms of kb/sec I am wondering, roughly the
> top speed of a typical home internet connection? If so than the
> argument for BT is mute.

bittorrent simply sucks as a distribution method.

Oh and most packages are so small that you wouldn't get any decent chunks
going at all which bittorrent also rellies on.

You are not the first to suggest it, but there is a reason no distribution
uses bittorrent for anything other than distributing iso images, and
even for that http and ftp are far supperior.

It doesn't help of course that ISPs hate bittorent in general.

You would be better off using the technique used by download accelerators,
which request byte ranges within a file using http (something supported
by some web servers), and then do multiple http transfers of the same
file of different ranges.  It could even be from different servers at
the same time.  This would work way better than bittorrent.  It is
compatible with proxy servers, ISPs don't hate it, it uses something the
server would already have, and avoids something the server doesn't want
to have.  It also works with sendfile and is hence offloadable to the
kernel by apache and the like.  Very efficient and fast.

So to download a 2MB package, you could request bytes 0-100k from server1,
100k-200k from server2, 200k-300k from server3, and when each chunk
finishes start another.  That way you might get 10 pieces from server1,
6 from server2 and the last 4 from server3, depending on their speeds
and loads.

Look up 'http byte serving'.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 20:08:50 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:08:50 -0400
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
In-Reply-To: <20090709194742.GK15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com> <20090709183953.GE15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907091226x84fc2d0n5112c5bd1d4e60ad@mail.gmail.com> <20090709194742.GK15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20090709200850.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 03:47:42PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> So to download a 2MB package, you could request bytes 0-100k from server1,
> 100k-200k from server2, 200k-300k from server3, and when each chunk
> finishes start another.  That way you might get 10 pieces from server1,
> 6 from server2 and the last 4 from server3, depending on their speeds
> and loads.
> 
> Look up 'http byte serving'.

An example using the python-urlgrabber tool:

urlgrabber --range=,10000 http://server1.org/package package.1
urlgrabber --range=10000,20000 http://server2.org/package package.2
urlgrabber --range=20000,30000 http://server3.org/package package.3
urlgrabber --range=30000, http://server4.org/package package.4

cat package.* > package

The 4 urlgrabbers could run in parallel, and when all done you have
the whole file.  Of course s smart download tool would do the byte
range requests itself and write it to one file directly using seeks
as appropriate.  The only requirement is that the http server support
byte range requests, which many do, since it is required to do resume
downloads.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 20:28:49 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:28:49 -0400
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
In-Reply-To: <20090709200850.GL15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090709183953.GE15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <a05162a70907091226x84fc2d0n5112c5bd1d4e60ad@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090709194742.GK15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <20090709200850.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907091328q8022308v238f949864cb39d2@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 03:47:42PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>> So to download a 2MB package, you could request bytes 0-100k from server1,
>> 100k-200k from server2, 200k-300k from server3, and when each chunk
>> finishes start another. ?That way you might get 10 pieces from server1,
>> 6 from server2 and the last 4 from server3, depending on their speeds
>> and loads.
>>
>> Look up 'http byte serving'.
>
> An example using the python-urlgrabber tool:
>
> urlgrabber --range=,10000 http://server1.org/package package.1
> urlgrabber --range=10000,20000 http://server2.org/package package.2
> urlgrabber --range=20000,30000 http://server3.org/package package.3
> urlgrabber --range=30000, http://server4.org/package package.4
>
> cat package.* > package
>
> The 4 urlgrabbers could run in parallel, and when all done you have
> the whole file. ?Of course s smart download tool would do the byte
> range requests itself and write it to one file directly using seeks
> as appropriate. ?The only requirement is that the http server support
> byte range requests, which many do, since it is required to do resume
> downloads.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen

Glad I asked about BT, the http byte serving is a cool idea that I
never heard about, nice to know it's already available. Now that I
have a better understand about things I can see why BT is not a good
idea, thank you for educating me!

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 20:50:59 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:50:59 -0400
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907091328q8022308v238f949864cb39d2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com> <20090709183953.GE15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907091226x84fc2d0n5112c5bd1d4e60ad@mail.gmail.com> <20090709194742.GK15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090709200850.GL15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907091328q8022308v238f949864cb39d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090709205059.GM15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 04:28:49PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 03:47:42PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> >> So to download a 2MB package, you could request bytes 0-100k from server1,
> >> 100k-200k from server2, 200k-300k from server3, and when each chunk
> >> finishes start another. ?That way you might get 10 pieces from server1,
> >> 6 from server2 and the last 4 from server3, depending on their speeds
> >> and loads.
> >>
> >> Look up 'http byte serving'.
> >
> > An example using the python-urlgrabber tool:
> >
> > urlgrabber --range=,10000 http://server1.org/package package.1
> > urlgrabber --range=10000,20000 http://server2.org/package package.2
> > urlgrabber --range=20000,30000 http://server3.org/package package.3
> > urlgrabber --range=30000, http://server4.org/package package.4
> >
> > cat package.* > package
> >
> > The 4 urlgrabbers could run in parallel, and when all done you have
> > the whole file. ?Of course s smart download tool would do the byte
> > range requests itself and write it to one file directly using seeks
> > as appropriate. ?The only requirement is that the http server support
> > byte range requests, which many do, since it is required to do resume
> > downloads.
> >
> > --
> > Len Sorensen
> 
> Glad I asked about BT, the http byte serving is a cool idea that I
> never heard about, nice to know it's already available. Now that I
> have a better understand about things I can see why BT is not a good
> idea, thank you for educating me!

Of course if you just get on some of the nice mirrors out there already
then plain http is plenty.  I have no problem saturating my 10Mbit link
at home when downloading debian updates.  Using multiple servers would
not help at all.  Would still be neat though.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 22:30:06 2009
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:30:06 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <20090709193611.GI15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost> <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost> <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com> <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090205000.24763@localhost> <20090709193611.GI15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4A566F6E.3050204@rogers.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> Only linux users, server operators and a few hardcode gamers have realized
> we have 64bit machines available. :)
>
> Oh and maybe content creation folks (3D graphics/rendering) and some
> CAD users.
>   
Photoshop users do as well.

CS4 needs 64 bit and at least 4 gigs of ram.

Now.. if Adobe made a Linux version ...

Stephen

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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 23:03:28 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:03:28 -0700
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F49C2558-1C79-465F-90F4-02536B3EA04E@gmail.com>

Due to various issues mentioned by others, iIm not sure it would be  
suitable for Internet distribution, but it could be useful in a LAN or  
private network for updating a lit of machines at once.

(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 9-Jul-09, at 8:46 AM, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I am not sure if anyone is already doing this. What I would like to
> eventually provide for the Linux base I am working on putting together
> is a way for the user to download modules with an integrated bit
> torrent download manager. (For security reasons the torrent would only
> use known trusted servers.)
>
> I am planning on building a core Linux base that could be quickly
> downloaded. Then during the install phase or after, allow the user to
> customize their download of extras using a bit torrent server.
>
> -- 
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul  9 23:21:59 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 19:21:59 -0400
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
In-Reply-To: <F49C2558-1C79-465F-90F4-02536B3EA04E-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com> 
	<F49C2558-1C79-465F-90F4-02536B3EA04E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907091621r705d644dx29be0a3f40d08a39@mail.gmail.com>

There is a P2P distribution application that runs on Windows called
DistriBrute (http://www.4m88.com/), unfortunately it does not run on
anything else...possibly if you ask the company enough then maybe
they'll make it for non-Windows platforms but I doubt it for some
reason.  There's got to be something similar for the various *nix.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 02:42:41 2009
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:42:41 -0400
Subject: Linux compatability of Acer Aspireone AO751H netbook?
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907090817l260b1cbfh5858b51fe28ffc84-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090709003817.GD9136@waltdnes.org> <1f13df280907090817l260b1cbfh5858b51fe28ffc84@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090710024241.GA10936@waltdnes.org>

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 11:17:25AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote

> Other than the screen size and a slightly slower version of the Atom,
> it looks pretty much identical to the 10" Aspireones, which are very
> common.

  Although I'm not an "idiot Gentoo ricer", I'm sure that some tweaking
in Gentoo will speed things up.  And of course, there's the "desktop
environment", or lack thereof.  My reaction to GNOME+KDE is "The Pox on
both your houses".  Running Blackbox or Fluxbox as the WM is an amazing
speedup.  From 1999 to 2007, I had a 450 mhz Dell PIII with 128 megs of
system ram (today's video cards have more).  With Gentoo+Blackbox, it
was OK for everything except "internet TV" and editing 2560x1920 photos
in GIMP, until it died in the summer of 2007.

  Any machine that calls itself a "netbook" is warning you that it is
*NOT* a desktop replacement, let alone a gaming rig.

> You could probably get a good read on this one by checking on
> the 10" version Linux compatibility?

  Earlier SSD-only (no hard drive) versions with a smaller screen
offered "Linpus Lite" Linux as an option.  "Linpus Lite" is Fedora-based,
but it's based on Fedora 8.0, and Acer has limited the repository that
it can access.  Besides, you prabaly get stuck with i386 RPMs and DEBs,
Some people did manage to install Fedora and Gentoo on it.  But the
11.6" version is so new that I can't find anybody else's experiences on
Google.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org>
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From gyre-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 08:30:46 2009
From: gyre-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Eric Battersby)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 04:30:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FYI, the new kernel newbie column is out
In-Reply-To: <f9870c010907081002n6e99eb1bw1d893f92e42095d2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081142590.17727@localhost> <f9870c010907081002n6e99eb1bw1d893f92e42095d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.0907100427100.39570@vex.net>

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009, Alex Beamish wrote:

> With a couple of years of Perl development on top of a couple more
> years of C development, I'd propose using a table and some pointers:
>
> ======================================
> /*  Prototype the registration functions. */
>
> int register_this(void *, char *);
> int register_that(void *, char *);
> int register_those(void *, char *);
> int unregister_this(void *, char *);
> int unregister_that(void *, char *);
>
> /*  Define a skull element structure that contains a void pointer for a return
> *  value, as well as pointers to the functions that register and unregister.
> *  */
>
> typedef struct {
>  void	*pv;
>  int	(*pfiRegister)();
>  int	(*pfiUnRegister)();
> } SKULL_ELEMENT;
>
> /*  Define an array of skull elements and initialize them with function
> *  pointers or NULLs. */
>
> SKULL_ELEMENT astrStack[3] = {
>  NULL, register_this,  unregister_this,
>  NULL, register_that,  unregister_that,
>  NULL, register_those, NULL,
> };
>
> int registration ()
> {
>    SKULL_ELEMENT *pstr;
>
>    /*  Cycle through each the skull elements .. */
>
>    for ( pstr = astrStack; pstr <= &astrStack[2]; pstr++ ) {
>
>      /*  Try to register a skull using the appropriate pointer and function ..
>       *  */
>
>      int err = pstr->pfiRegister ( pstr->pv, "skull" );
>      if ( err ) {
>
> 	/*  If there was an error, go back through the stack and unregister any
> 	 *  prior registrations, and return the error.  */
>
>        while ( --pstr > astrStack ) {
>
> 	  pstr->pfiUnRegister ( pstr->pv, "skull" );
>
> 	}
> 	return ( err );
>      }
>    }
>
>    /*  Success!  */
>
>    return ( 0 );
> }
> ======================================
>
> I prefer the usage of 'if ( err )' rather than the somewhat
> counterintuitive 'if ( !err )', but that's probably a matter for
> discussion over beer, and not a mailing list.
>
> It looks like this code tries to register with three different
> functions, and if any of them fail, it unregisters from any that
> succeeded. I note that there are no tests for failure on
> unregistration -- perhaps they were removed from the example code for
> clarity.
>
> I didn't have the time to actually confirm that my code is
> functionally the same, but it does compile. I think I last used
> function pointers in C back in 1998, so I'm not positive I have the
> syntax right, but the meaning should be clear enough.


That code still looks a bit hairy to me.
Using a stack abstraction,
I think the actual code logic is easier to understand
and becomes easier to read.
This code is functionally the same as the orginal.

***

...

/* do single registration here */
int reg_it( int(*  reg)(char *p, char *s)
           , int(*unreg)(char *p, char *s)
           , char *p, char *s) {
     int err;

     err = reg( p, s );
     if (err) { pop_all();	    }  /* undo previous registrations */
     else     { push( unreg, p, s ); }  /* save new unregistration fn  */

     return( err );
}/* reg_it() */

/* macro to simplify relevant code and eliminate duplication */
#define REG_IT_OR_RETURN(name,ptr,str)				   \
     err = reg_it(register_##name , unregister_##name , ptr, str);  \
     if ( err ) return(err);

/* MAIN CODE LOGIC */
int proc(char *ptr1, char *ptr2, char *ptr3) {
     int err;
     gREG_stack_inx = 0;  /* reset stack */

     /* do registration with undo */
     REG_IT_OR_RETURN( this , ptr1, "skull");
     REG_IT_OR_RETURN( that , ptr2, "skull");
     REG_IT_OR_RETURN( those, ptr3, "skull");

     return 0;
}/* proc() */

--
Eric Battersby
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From stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 12:51:39 2009
From: stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org (Stephen W. Clarke)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:51:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [OT] Open Source Outlook/calendar Alternative?
Message-ID: <10529.192.168.20.1.1247230299.squirrel@nray.ca>

I am once again in discussions about moving away from MS Office and
implementing OpenOffice site wide. However, one question that has recently
come up is what will replace the Outlook calendar? We don't use the
exchange server for email so there is no real tie to Outlook other than a
few users who really like the calendar.

If I install Thunderbird and Sunbird can I just import the Outlook
calendar? Or is there a better solution.

Thanks,
Stephen


-- 
Stephen W. Clarke
Marketing and Communications Officer
Nray Services Inc.
56A Head Street
Dundas, ON L9H 3H7
CANADA

(905) 627-1302 x14

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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 14:20:08 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:20:08 -0400
Subject: [OT] Open Source Outlook/calendar Alternative?
In-Reply-To: <10529.192.168.20.1.1247230299.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org>
References: <10529.192.168.20.1.1247230299.squirrel@nray.ca>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907100720o23898d8fyfd0529b996cde4f1@mail.gmail.com>

Steven,

2009/7/10 Stephen W. Clarke <stephenc-wtWqQT8woy8 at public.gmane.org>

> I am once again in discussions about moving away from MS Office and
> implementing OpenOffice site wide. However, one question that has recently
> come up is what will replace the Outlook calendar? We don't use the
> exchange server for email so there is no real tie to Outlook other than a
> few users who really like the calendar.
>
> If I install Thunderbird and Sunbird can I just import the Outlook
> calendar? Or is there a better solution.
>

Try a recent version of evolution and configure it to connect to exchange
through exchange connector also known as MAPI. I have successfully managed
to set up with all the feature provided by outlook. That was with the
evolution MUA that came with fedora 11

There has been improvement recently after  openchange managed to reverse
engineer MAPI.  If you are interested, you can read more about it from the
links below.

http://www.openchange.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=64&Itemid=72

http://www.openchange.org/images/Conferences/sambaxp_2008.pdf

I am assuming the site is currently using exchange. And since all users are
not going to go along in the conversion, the above can allow you to
gradually phase in open office for those who will co-operate

Anyway, hopes that helps

William

>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
>
>
> --
> Stephen W. Clarke
> Marketing and Communications Officer
> Nray Services Inc.
> 56A Head Street
> Dundas, ON L9H 3H7
> CANADA
>
> (905) 627-1302 x14
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 14:36:45 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:36:45 -0400
Subject: partition backup
Message-ID: <a05162a70907100736v23138dcdg20bc9e99b19d3bbf@mail.gmail.com>

I am looking for a partition backup for Linux, something like Norton
Ghost, are there any good open source one?
I would like one where I can boot off the CD to run the tool.

Thanks!

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 14:42:53 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:42:53 -0400
Subject: partition backup
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907100736v23138dcdg20bc9e99b19d3bbf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907100736v23138dcdg20bc9e99b19d3bbf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A57536D.9060804@utoronto.ca>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> I am looking for a partition backup for Linux, something like Norton
> Ghost, are there any good open source one?
> I would like one where I can boot off the CD to run the tool.

Try the gparted livecd/usb and dd. Or any livecd/usb image for that matter.

Jamon
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 16:24:15 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:24:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: anyone out there use the ecm "nuxeo"?
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907101221330.20024@localhost>


  a friend of mine is looking for an open source ECM solution, and the
name "nuxeo" came up.  anyone out there use it?  any thoughts?
thanks.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
"Kernel Newbie Corner" column @ linux.com:          http://cli.gs/WG6WYX
========================================================================
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 17:06:46 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:06:46 -0400
Subject: partition backup
In-Reply-To: <4A57536D.9060804-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907100736v23138dcdg20bc9e99b19d3bbf@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A57536D.9060804@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907101006p4e897adfhdb7b655baa459b0e@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Jamon
Camisso<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>
>> I am looking for a partition backup for Linux, something like Norton
>> Ghost, are there any good open source one?
>> I would like one where I can boot off the CD to run the tool.
>
> Try the gparted livecd/usb and dd. Or any livecd/usb image for that matter.
>
> Jamon
> --
Jamon, thanks for the info, I was able to find the SystemRescueCD
which provides exactly this.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 17:30:56 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:30:56 -0700
Subject: OT: TP-Link gigabit managed switch
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336@mail.gmail.com>

I noticed this one on clearance @ newegg.ca


It's managed, supports VLAN's, has 26 gigabit ports, and the price
seems pretty good

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833704018

Thus far my experience with TP-Link has been a very friendly
wireless-USB adaptor, and my co-worker's router. I haven't tried any
of the higher-end stuff like managed switches. Anyone care to comment
on the quality of this and/or price?


- TJA

-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 17:37:07 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:37:07 -0400
Subject: anyone out there use the ecm "nuxeo"?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907101221330.20024@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907101221330.20024@localhost>
Message-ID: <4A577C43.9020603@utoronto.ca>

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>   a friend of mine is looking for an open source ECM solution, and the
> name "nuxeo" came up.  anyone out there use it?  any thoughts?
> thanks.

I haven't, usually stick to alfresco for an ecm. But if he truly needs 
it for "enterprisey" content management, he should probably have a well 
defined set of criteria against which to compare foss (or proprietary) 
offerings before just picking something.

He should probably pick 3-5, install and try each one. Let the install 
process be a criteria for choosing a cms as well since someone is going 
to have to run and support the thing.

Jamon
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 17:39:29 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:39:29 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com>

Has anyone heard of Acanac (http://acanac.ca/)?  They claim that:

No Blocked Ports or Traffic Shapping

However, I see nothing on their site about MLPPP, so why would they
claim the above, more specifically the part about TS when they have no
control over it?!

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 17:44:08 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:44:08 -0400
Subject: OT: TP-Link gigabit managed switch
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A577DE8.5090204@rogers.com>

Minor correction.  It has 24 10/100 port and 2 10/100/1000 ports.  These
last two can be either copper or fibre, via SFP modules.  The two
gigabit ports would normally be used for stacking.  I have done some
installations, where there would be a few switches similar to this and
the gigabit ports are used to connect each of the switches to a 24 port
gigabit switch.


Tyler Aviss wrote:
> I noticed this one on clearance @ newegg.ca
>
>
> It's managed, supports VLAN's, has 26 gigabit ports, and the price
> seems pretty good
>
> http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833704018
>
> Thus far my experience with TP-Link has been a very friendly
> wireless-USB adaptor, and my co-worker's router. I haven't tried any
> of the higher-end stuff like managed switches. Anyone care to comment
> on the quality of this and/or price?
>
>
> - TJA
>
>   

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 18:56:55 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:56:55 -0400
Subject: Google Plans a PC Operating System
In-Reply-To: <4A566F6E.3050204-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247077946.13756.4.camel@jimslaptop> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081450480.20771@localhost> <4A54EE8D.5060506@dinamis.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907081514080.21247@localhost> <4A54FE53.3010307@rogers.com> <a05162a70907081323p4806a9d2td35952cd5cf1ee7b@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907090205000.24763@localhost> <20090709193611.GI15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A566F6E.3050204@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20090710185655.GN15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 06:30:06PM -0400, Stephen wrote:
> Photoshop users do as well.
>
> CS4 needs 64 bit and at least 4 gigs of ram.
>
> Now.. if Adobe made a Linux version ...

Well based on the quality of the linux code adobe has written so far,
I would probably rather they didn't.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 18:57:47 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:57:47 -0400
Subject: Bit Torrent, Updating Linux
In-Reply-To: <F49C2558-1C79-465F-90F4-02536B3EA04E-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907090846ya3874eev9b8fc804b4becfe0@mail.gmail.com> <F49C2558-1C79-465F-90F4-02536B3EA04E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090710185747.GO15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 04:03:28PM -0700, Aviss,Tyler wrote:
> Due to various issues mentioned by others, iIm not sure it would be  
> suitable for Internet distribution, but it could be useful in a LAN or  
> private network for updating a lit of machines at once.

Well for that using multicast from the server to all the clients would
be even better.  Either way, the http transfer will still outperform
bittorrent.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 19:01:33 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:01:33 -0400
Subject: OT: TP-Link gigabit managed switch
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090710190132.GP15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 10:30:56AM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> I noticed this one on clearance @ newegg.ca
> 
> It's managed, supports VLAN's, has 26 gigabit ports, and the price
> seems pretty good
> 
> http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833704018
> 
> Thus far my experience with TP-Link has been a very friendly
> wireless-USB adaptor, and my co-worker's router. I haven't tried any
> of the higher-end stuff like managed switches. Anyone care to comment
> on the quality of this and/or price?

I think you are wrong.

It appears to be 24 10/100 ports + 4 Gbit ports (2 RJ45 + 2 SFP).

Looking here seems to agree with my reading of it:
http://www.tp-link.com/products/product_des.asp?id=54

So is it a good price for 24 100Mbit ports and a few Gbit ports?

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 19:03:28 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:03:28 -0700
Subject: OT: TP-Link gigabit managed switch
In-Reply-To: <4A577DE8.5090204-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A577DE8.5090204@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907101203t199f06d4pe092320f0712f019@mail.gmail.com>

You're right, my bad. From the newegg page it looked like all gigabit
(which would have been great) but the product manufacturers page
indicates only the two :-(

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 10:44 AM, James Knott<james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Minor correction. ?It has 24 10/100 port and 2 10/100/1000 ports. ?These
> last two can be either copper or fibre, via SFP modules. ?The two
> gigabit ports would normally be used for stacking. ?I have done some
> installations, where there would be a few switches similar to this and
> the gigabit ports are used to connect each of the switches to a 24 port
> gigabit switch.
>
>
> Tyler Aviss wrote:
>> I noticed this one on clearance @ newegg.ca
>>
>>
>> It's managed, supports VLAN's, has 26 gigabit ports, and the price
>> seems pretty good
>>
>> http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833704018
>>
>> Thus far my experience with TP-Link has been a very friendly
>> wireless-USB adaptor, and my co-worker's router. I haven't tried any
>> of the higher-end stuff like managed switches. Anyone care to comment
>> on the quality of this and/or price?
>>
>>
>> - TJA
>>
>>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 19:03:37 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:03:37 -0400
Subject: OT: TP-Link gigabit managed switch
In-Reply-To: <4A577DE8.5090204-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336@mail.gmail.com> <4A577DE8.5090204@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20090710190337.GQ15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 01:44:08PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> Minor correction.  It has 24 10/100 port and 2 10/100/1000 ports.  These
> last two can be either copper or fibre, via SFP modules.  The two
> gigabit ports would normally be used for stacking.  I have done some
> installations, where there would be a few switches similar to this and
> the gigabit ports are used to connect each of the switches to a 24 port
> gigabit switch.

I don't think you can do copper with SFP modules.  The hole lookes too small.

-- 
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 21:04:58 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:04:58 -0400
Subject: OT: TP-Link gigabit managed switch
In-Reply-To: <20090710190132.GP15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336@mail.gmail.com> <20090710190132.GP15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4A57ACFA.3020900@rogers.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 10:30:56AM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
>   
>> I noticed this one on clearance @ newegg.ca
>>
>> It's managed, supports VLAN's, has 26 gigabit ports, and the price
>> seems pretty good
>>
>> http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833704018
>>
>> Thus far my experience with TP-Link has been a very friendly
>> wireless-USB adaptor, and my co-worker's router. I haven't tried any
>> of the higher-end stuff like managed switches. Anyone care to comment
>> on the quality of this and/or price?
>>     
>
> I think you are wrong.
>
> It appears to be 24 10/100 ports + 4 Gbit ports (2 RJ45 + 2 SFP).
>
>   
Actually, it's likely only 2 gigabit ports.  You can use either copper
or fibre via SPF module, but not both.  At least that the way it works
on all the switches I've worked with.


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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 21:17:30 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:17:30 -0400
Subject: OT: TP-Link gigabit managed switch
In-Reply-To: <20090710190337.GQ15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336@mail.gmail.com> <4A577DE8.5090204@rogers.com> <20090710190337.GQ15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4A57AFEA.3070806@rogers.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 01:44:08PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
>   
>> Minor correction.  It has 24 10/100 port and 2 10/100/1000 ports.  These
>> last two can be either copper or fibre, via SFP modules.  The two
>> gigabit ports would normally be used for stacking.  I have done some
>> installations, where there would be a few switches similar to this and
>> the gigabit ports are used to connect each of the switches to a 24 port
>> gigabit switch.
>>     
>
> I don't think you can do copper with SFP modules.  The hole lookes too small.
>
>   
You can get copper SFP modules, but they're more expensive than the
fibre ones and there's generally not much need for them.  Regardless, I
wasn't implying you'd use SFP for copper.

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 21:44:28 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:44:28 -0400
Subject: OT: TP-Link gigabit managed switch
In-Reply-To: <4A57ACFA.3020900-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907101030s2167c0bdj5eef908d7cf87336@mail.gmail.com> <20090710190132.GP15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A57ACFA.3020900@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20090710214428.GR15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 05:04:58PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> Actually, it's likely only 2 gigabit ports.  You can use either copper
> or fibre via SPF module, but not both.  At least that the way it works
> on all the switches I've worked with.

It has two permanent gig copper ports and two SFP ports.  It says you
can use 4 Gig ports.  It is a 28 port switch (hence the 28 in the name).

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 21:55:16 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:55:16 -0400
Subject: anyone out there use the ecm "nuxeo"?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907101221330.20024@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907101221330.20024@localhost>
Message-ID: <4A57B8C4.4010101@dinamis.com>

On 10/07/09 12:24 PM, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>   a friend of mine is looking for an open source ECM solution, and the
> name "nuxeo" came up.  anyone out there use it?  any thoughts?
> thanks.

We used to use Nuxeo CPS (Community Portal Server) when it was a product
based on Zope. It had some very impressive capabilities but it was a
very frustrating thing to use because it had lousy to non-existent
documentation in English and not-so-great documentation in French.
Nuxeo, the company behind CPS, either didn't care to or didn't know how
to build a community. There were many times when I was the only person
in the CPS IRC channel and many questions went unanswered on the mailing
list. We ditched CPS before they moved to Java and that move only
reinforced the decision. We were also using Plone at the time and by
contrast, Plone had a real community around it and very good documentation.

Nuxeo seems to be making a push into the North American market now and
have signed up a local VAR (whom I know). We haven't touched Nuxeo since
they migrated to Java so I have no idea if it's better-documented than
CPS or if there is any sort of a community around it. The former is
possible. The latter, I doubt exists.

If you read the blurbs of the various "open source ECM" vendors, there
are lots of buzz words but there isn't any obvious thing that makes them
more "enterprisey" than Plone, for example.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 21:57:51 2009
From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:57:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Acanac...?
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>

Michael Lauzon <mlauzon at ...> writes:
> Has anyone heard of Acanac (http://acanac.ca/)?  They claim that:

Yes, but, more importantly, is anyone running acanac on a *dry* dsl line ?
Because that's what I need and I am pretty sure the people I talked to have no
idea what they are talking about. I will eventually go there (acanac store) and
try to sort it out but a posting here is worth a thousand paces (literally).

tia,

  Peter

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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 22:11:42 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:11:42 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <loom.20090710T215616-857-eS7Uydv5nfjZ+VzJOa5vwg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com> <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com>

Peter wrote:
> Michael Lauzon <mlauzon at ...> writes:
>> Has anyone heard of Acanac (http://acanac.ca/)?  They claim that:
> 
> Yes, but, more importantly, is anyone running acanac on a *dry* dsl line ?
> Because that's what I need and I am pretty sure the people I talked to have no
> idea what they are talking about. I will eventually go there (acanac store) and
> try to sort it out but a posting here is worth a thousand paces (literally).
> 
> tia,
> 
>   Peter

I don't know about acanac.ca, but we (small local ISP who resell's 
Bell's DSL) have looked at ways to get around their bandwidth capping 
with minimal success. They seem to throttle what they don't like at 
their central concentrator(s) before we get it. If Acanac has found a 
way around this, power to them!

On the question of Dry loop...

There seems to be some confusion on this term. As *I* understand it, a 
"Dry Loop" is a phone line with no voltage and a "Wet Loop" is a line 
with voltage but no dial tone. Bell refers to lines /with/ voltage as 
Dry Loops though, so I guess the terms are muddy now.

On the good side, Fiber is getting cheaper...

Madi
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 22:25:37 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:25:37 -0400
Subject: kubuntu xserver
Message-ID: <a05162a70907101525p1cf228b5ja37c3a03a5c1cb4a@mail.gmail.com>

how do I tell xserver that it can display a higher resolution?

right now I am getting 800x600, when I can go as high as 1600x1200
also my monitor shows 60Hz when I know it can go up to 75Hz, I usually
set it to 70Hz in WinXP

the KDE monitor settings applet  display 800x600 as the highest setting.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 23:22:14 2009
From: erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Erik (Caneris))
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:22:14 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <4A57BC9E.7010003-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com>
 <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>,<4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com>

Madison wrote:
> I don't know about acanac.ca, but we (small local ISP who resell's 
> Bell's DSL) have looked at ways to get around their bandwidth capping 
> with minimal success. They seem to throttle what they don't like at 
> their central concentrator(s) before we get it. If Acanac has found a 
> way around this, power to them!
> 
It's actually pretty straight-forward. We (Caneris) have bypassed Bell's throttling using both MLPPP and SSH tunnels. I imagine MPPE would probably work too, but it's a real PITA for us to re-config our LNSs, RADIUS, prov, tools, and everything else to completely support MPPE. 

Bell throttles on the egress from the BASs, using equipment from Arbor Networks (formerly Ellacoya), which does DPI.


> There seems to be some confusion on this term. As *I* 
> understand it, a 
> "Dry Loop" is a phone line with no voltage and a "Wet Loop" is a line 
> with voltage but no dial tone. Bell refers to lines /with/ voltage as 
> Dry Loops though, so I guess the terms are muddy now.
> 
The term is a bit muddy, but usually in the context of DSL it's taken to mean "no active voice service" rather than "no voltage" or "no dial tone". Nearly all "dry loops" actually have a dial tone and techs are able to call ANAC just like on regular loops.

Erik
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 23:38:16 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:38:16 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747-dCwRk7XjkHbuDgzvhp7rgdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com> <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>,<4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com> <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com>
Message-ID: <4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com>

Erik (Caneris) wrote:
> Madison wrote:
>> I don't know about acanac.ca, but we (small local ISP who resell's 
>> Bell's DSL) have looked at ways to get around their bandwidth capping 
>> with minimal success. They seem to throttle what they don't like at 
>> their central concentrator(s) before we get it. If Acanac has found a 
>> way around this, power to them!
>>
> It's actually pretty straight-forward. We (Caneris) have bypassed Bell's throttling using both MLPPP and SSH tunnels. I imagine MPPE would probably work too, but it's a real PITA for us to re-config our LNSs, RADIUS, prov, tools, and everything else to completely support MPPE. 
> 
> Bell throttles on the egress from the BASs, using equipment from Arbor Networks (formerly Ellacoya), which does DPI.

Trick is doing it on our end for all customers... I've not been the one 
looking into it though, so I am not sure what the actual challenge is.

I thought Bell was flat-out denying using Deep Packet Inspection? Have 
they changed their tune or did someone do their homework?

Madi
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 23:47:48 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:47:48 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <4A57D0E8.1090103-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com> 
	<loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org> <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com> 
	<E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com> 
	<4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com>

I think Bell may also be Traffic Shaping using the DSL modem, because
when I open up the settings everything is going through UDP ports
6666, however I think this is only for their newer modems.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 10 23:53:53 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:53:53 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com> 	<loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org> <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com> 	<E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com> 	<4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com> <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A57D491.6080108@alteeve.com>

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> I think Bell may also be Traffic Shaping using the DSL modem, because
> when I open up the settings everything is going through UDP ports
> 6666, however I think this is only for their newer modems.

If they are, it would be in addition to central throttling. It would 
also be rather... intense... of them. However, this is Bell...

Madi
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From erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 00:31:31 2009
From: erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Erik (Caneris))
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:31:31 -0400
Subject: bypassing DPI/throttling (was: Re:Acanac...?)
Message-ID: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9748@klsapp1.klssys.com>

Madison wrote:
> Trick is doing it on our end for all customers... I've not 
> been the one 
> looking into it though, so I am not sure what the actual challenge is.
> 
Not sure what your setup is or how feasible MLPPP is for you guys, but as far as doing SSH tunnel for all of our customers, that was not terribly difficult. We made a custom one-click version of putty which does everything for the users, had the SSH tunnel box auth against RADIUS so no prov work required and folks can login with their existing PPPoE logins, documented the steps for them, and that's pretty much it. It's still in beta, but we're about to roll it out across the user base. It's not perfect, but it's decent enough for now. We're going to improve the method and docs a bit as we go, it's a bit narrow in scope right now. Check out http://www.caneris.com/Support#sshtunnel

We weren't the first to use this method, but we were the first to make it that easy from the end user's perspective, simply due to the customized version of putty combined with the docs. So, you should be able to replicate that setup pretty easily for your customers.

We're still considering whether doing MPPE is worth the effort. It would certainly be a "cleaner" solution, but we haven't researched how widespread CPE support is for it nor the full impact on our LNSs, RADIUS, OSS, tools, and everything else. MPPE requires CHAP, not PAP, if I'm not mistaken, so that's one of the main issues.

Erik
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 00:41:13 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:41:13 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <4A57D491.6080108-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com> 
	<loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org> <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com> 
	<E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com> 
	<4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com> <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A57D491.6080108@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907101741n1757984atf5065839115df10e@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 19:53, Madison Kelly<linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> If they are, it would be in addition to central throttling. It would also be
> rather... intense... of them. However, this is Bell...
>
> Madi


Well, it appears my external & internal ports have been changed, when
I first looked a few days ago, they were showing port 6666 for both,
now the port is: 56963; seems Bell's got some way to change things.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 00:47:58 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:47:58 -0400
Subject: bypassing DPI/throttling (was: Re:Acanac...?)
In-Reply-To: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9748-dCwRk7XjkHbuDgzvhp7rgdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9748@klsapp1.klssys.com>
Message-ID: <4A57E13E.8070505@alteeve.com>

Erik (Caneris) wrote:
> Madison wrote:
>> Trick is doing it on our end for all customers... I've not 
>> been the one 
>> looking into it though, so I am not sure what the actual challenge is.
>>
> Not sure what your setup is or how feasible MLPPP is for you guys, but as far as doing SSH tunnel for all of our customers, that was not terribly difficult. We made a custom one-click version of putty which does everything for the users, had the SSH tunnel box auth against RADIUS so no prov work required and folks can login with their existing PPPoE logins, documented the steps for them, and that's pretty much it. It's still in beta, but we're about to roll it out across the user base. It's not perfect, but it's decent enough for now. We're going to improve the method and docs a bit as we go, it's a bit narrow in scope right now. Check out http://www.caneris.com/Support#sshtunnel
> 
> We weren't the first to use this method, but we were the first to make it that easy from the end user's perspective, simply due to the customized version of putty combined with the docs. So, you should be able to replicate that setup pretty easily for your customers.
> 
> We're still considering whether doing MPPE is worth the effort. It would certainly be a "cleaner" solution, but we haven't researched how widespread CPE support is for it nor the full impact on our LNSs, RADIUS, OSS, tools, and everything else. MPPE requires CHAP, not PAP, if I'm not mistaken, so that's one of the main issues.
> 
> Erik
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 

Our case is a bit different, as a good percentage of our users are on 
Linux or some variation of Unix. We need to find an OS-independent 
solution. I think the big boss has been playing with some stuff, but 
I've been too jammed up on another project to really look into it close 
myself.

It's madness that we have to deal with this at all, truth be told. 
Bloody useless CRTC. If Bell really gave a damn they'd invest the money 
they've spent on this gambit in upgrading their infrastructure.

I am ranting now, I digress...

Madi
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 00:49:00 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:49:00 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907101741n1757984atf5065839115df10e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com> 	<loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org> <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com> 	<E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com> 	<4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com> <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A57D491.6080108@alteeve.com> <7c50d3570907101741n1757984atf5065839115df10e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A57E17C.10701@alteeve.com>

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 19:53, Madison Kelly<linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> If they are, it would be in addition to central throttling. It would also be
>> rather... intense... of them. However, this is Bell...
>>
>> Madi
> 
> 
> Well, it appears my external & internal ports have been changed, when
> I first looked a few days ago, they were showing port 6666 for both,
> now the port is: 56963; seems Bell's got some way to change things.

If Erik is right, and I have no reason to doubt he is, and Bell is 
indeed doing deep packet inspection, then anything is possible.

Madi
--
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From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 01:31:23 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:31:23 -0400
Subject: bypassing DPI/throttling (was: Re:Acanac...?)
In-Reply-To: <4A57E13E.8070505-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9748@klsapp1.klssys.com>
	<4A57E13E.8070505@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <20090710213123.31bec7bc@teksavvy.com>

Madison Kelly wrote: 

> Erik (Caneris) wrote:
> > Madison wrote:  
> >> Trick is doing it on our end for all customers... I've not 
> >> been the one 
> >> looking into it though, so I am not sure what the actual challenge is.
> >>  
> > Not sure what your setup is or how feasible MLPPP is for you guys, but as
> > far as doing SSH tunnel for all of our customers, that was not terribly
> > difficult. We made a custom one-click version of putty which does
> > everything for the users, had the SSH tunnel box auth against RADIUS so no
> > prov work required and folks can login with their existing PPPoE logins,
> > documented the steps for them, and that's pretty much it. It's still in
> > beta, but we're about to roll it out across the user base. It's not
> > perfect, but it's decent enough for now. We're going to improve the method
> > and docs a bit as we go, it's a bit narrow in scope right now. Check out
> > http://www.caneris.com/Support#sshtunnel
> > 
> > We weren't the first to use this method, but we were the first to make it
> > that easy from the end user's perspective, simply due to the customized
> > version of putty combined with the docs. So, you should be able to
> > replicate that setup pretty easily for your customers.
> > 
> > We're still considering whether doing MPPE is worth the effort. It would
> > certainly be a "cleaner" solution, but we haven't researched how widespread
> > CPE support is for it nor the full impact on our LNSs, RADIUS, OSS, tools,
> > and everything else. MPPE requires CHAP, not PAP, if I'm not mistaken, so
> > that's one of the main issues.
> > 
> > Erik
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> >   
> 
> Our case is a bit different, as a good percentage of our users are on 
> Linux or some variation of Unix. We need to find an OS-independent 
> solution. I think the big boss has been playing with some stuff, but 
> I've been too jammed up on another project to really look into it close 
> myself.
> 
> It's madness that we have to deal with this at all, truth be told. 
> Bloody useless CRTC. If Bell really gave a damn they'd invest the money 
> they've spent on this gambit in upgrading their infrastructure.
> 
> I am ranting now, I digress...

This is where I'm in agreement with Robert Kahn that government will never be
able to guarantee any kind of 'net neutrality'. The strength of the Internet is
that it can be very easily manipulated to circumvent any attempts at censorship.

I have little or no faith in bureaucrats to protect my networking freedoms, but
I am damned sure the hackers will always be on the lookout for new and more
wonderful ways for me to stick it to the man ;)

-- 
J
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 02:52:25 2009
From: erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Erik (Caneris))
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 22:52:25 -0400
Subject: bypassing DPI/throttling (was: Re:Acanac...?)
In-Reply-To: <4A57E13E.8070505-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9748@klsapp1.klssys.com>,<4A57E13E.8070505@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9749@klsapp1.klssys.com>

Madison wrote: 
> Our case is a bit different, as a good percentage of our users are on 
> Linux or some variation of Unix. We need to find an OS-independent 
> solution. I think the big boss has been playing with some stuff, but 
> I've been too jammed up on another project to really look 
> into it close 
> myself.
> 
Well, the two known (MLPPP and SSH) and the one suspected (MPPE) solutions are all OS/CPE-independent.
In fact, the SSH tunnel is even easier on Linux/openssh, it's something ridicuously simple similar to this (untested):
ssh -N -D 8888 user at host

We haven't posted the instructions for ours yet, but I suspect the above will give you the Linux equivalent of our custom putty for Windows.

> It's madness that we have to deal with this at all, truth be told. 
> Bloody useless CRTC. If Bell really gave a damn they'd invest 
> the money 
> they've spent on this gambit in upgrading their infrastructure.
> 
Indeed, but it's nothing new though, we've seen it before, and these issues have been going on for over 10 years with Bell.

There has been lots of activity on the regulatory front lately, affecting DSL. There are several separate issues before the CRTC now, including GAS UBB tariff, GAS throttling R&V, LA&S changes, the mis-named ITMP review, and a few others. It's becoming hard to keep up. Bell's throwing everything they've got at ISPs and it's not exactly a pleasant situation right now.

Erik
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 03:20:11 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:20:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: bypassing DPI/throttling (was: Re:Acanac...?)
In-Reply-To: <20090710213123.31bec7bc-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9748@klsapp1.klssys.com> <4A57E13E.8070505@alteeve.com> <20090710213123.31bec7bc@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907102314540.19007@castor.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009, JoeHill wrote:

> This is where I'm in agreement with Robert Kahn that government will 
> never be able to guarantee any kind of 'net neutrality'. The strength of 
> the Internet is that it can be very easily manipulated to circumvent any 
> attempts at censorship.
>
> I have little or no faith in bureaucrats to protect my networking 
> freedoms, but I am damned sure the hackers will always be on the lookout 
> for new and more wonderful ways for me to stick it to the man ;)

It's a true testiment to the flexible design of TCP/IP that it continues 
to cope with so many demands that were not invisioned by the original 
designers.  This goes beyond just coping with new applications.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 07:36:31 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 03:36:31 -0400
Subject: kubuntu xserver
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907101525p1cf228b5ja37c3a03a5c1cb4a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907101525p1cf228b5ja37c3a03a5c1cb4a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907110036i725fb08cs786b20f1c9420403@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/09, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> how do I tell xserver that it can display a higher resolution?
>
> right now I am getting 800x600, when I can go as high as 1600x1200
> also my monitor shows 60Hz when I know it can go up to 75Hz, I usually
> set it to 70Hz in WinXP
>
> the KDE monitor settings applet  display 800x600 as the highest setting.

It was easier than I thought, just had to install the nvidia driver
which are not installed by default.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 16:45:01 2009
From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:45:01 -0400
Subject: [OT] Open Source Outlook/calendar Alternative?
In-Reply-To: <10529.192.168.20.1.1247230299.squirrel-wtWqQT8woy8@public.gmane.org>
References: <10529.192.168.20.1.1247230299.squirrel@nray.ca>
Message-ID: <4A58C18D.8020200@rogers.com>

Stephen W. Clarke wrote:
> If I install Thunderbird and Sunbird can I just import the Outlook
> calendar? Or is there a better solution.
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
I suggest that you provide a calendar by  using the Lightning extension 
for Thunderbird.


John
--
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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 17:14:42 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:14:42 -0400
Subject: [OT] Open Source Outlook/calendar Alternative?
In-Reply-To: <4A58C18D.8020200-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <10529.192.168.20.1.1247230299.squirrel@nray.ca> <4A58C18D.8020200@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4A58C882.9070306@moores.ca>

I've used Thunderbird a lot in the past, but these days I'm leaning more
towards Evolution because it has much better LDAP contacts support.
Calender support I think are pretty similar between the two of them.

cheers,
darryl

John McGregor wrote:
> Stephen W. Clarke wrote:
>> If I install Thunderbird and Sunbird can I just import the Outlook
>> calendar? Or is there a better solution.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Stephen
> I suggest that you provide a calendar by  using the Lightning extension
> for Thunderbird.
> 
> 
> John
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 20:29:53 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:29:53 -0400
Subject: Managed switches and 'nix (WAS: TP-Link gigabit managed switch)
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907111329k5e3b9d94v8fab4cb857d45c36@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 05:04:58PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
>> Actually, it's likely only 2 gigabit ports. ?You can use either copper
>> or fibre via SPF module, but not both. ?At least that the way it works
>> on all the switches I've worked with.
>
> It has two permanent gig copper ports and two SFP ports. ?It says you
> can use 4 Gig ports. ?It is a 28 port switch (hence the 28 in the name).
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>


Seems I've opened a can of worms on this :-)
Since it's only got the two gig ports (the SFP I suppose would be nice
if modules didn't cost more than a switch these days) it's not quite
as attractive as all-gig. However, price-wise it was still comparable
in terms of the last "managed" switches the price isn't too bad,
depending on how well the management, snmp, VLAN, and other such
things actually work.


Actually, along that vein I would recommend that anyone in a 'nix shop
seeing products listed as "Cisco Small Business" steer clear. Where I
previously worked we bought a few and found they're actually just
Linksys crap (which some vendors don't advertise on the site,
preferring the big name of "Cisco Small Business"). I don't remember
the particular models we got, but they were 48-port managed switches,
however the management console actually *REQUIRED* windows+IE+ActiveX
to configure the VLAN's etc to work. They had no telnet console. No
cross-browser compatibility, and a few other missing things like SNMP.

It seems to me a sad day when even core networking equipment is tied
to a given OS, but I thought I'd pass along a warning to anyone else
that has to deal with this. Not all vendors use the "Cisco Small
Business" label, as many are a bit more honest and list them as
"Linksys".
--
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 20:38:40 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:38:40 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>
	 <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com>
	 <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com>
	 <4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com>
	 <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907111338m69206547q6149e07b11d01f53@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Michael Lauzon<mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I think Bell may also be Traffic Shaping using the DSL modem, because
> when I open up the settings everything is going through UDP ports
> 6666, however I think this is only for their newer modems.
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Michael Lauzon
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>


I'd imagine in that case they're doing both then, as the modem for
most 3rd-party ISP's isn't supplied by Bell, yet they still seem to
get throttled or otherwise interfered with.

Erik,are you saying that you encrypt traffic between the customers'
modem and your own endpoint, or is this just for employee's etc? Seems
like a smart way of doing things, and if you've managed to thus avoid
Bell's idiocy then I must applaud you for that! When you can't trust
the corps or your government/regulators to ensure fair and unbiased
service, it seems that a dedicated team of innovative "hackers" can
still manage to get the job done.

My main concern in this would be that if encryption became widespread,
then Bell may end up throttling *all* the traffic for third-party
ISP's down to a less-than-optimal level. However at that point I think
that even the regulators couldn't ignore this as anti-competitive.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 20:40:21 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:40:21 -0400
Subject: partition backup
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907101006p4e897adfhdb7b655baa459b0e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907100736v23138dcdg20bc9e99b19d3bbf@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A57536D.9060804@utoronto.ca>
	 <a05162a70907101006p4e897adfhdb7b655baa459b0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907111340n6f959111hc477dd943b1dc69c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Rajinder Yadav<devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Jamon
> Camisso<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>>
>>> I am looking for a partition backup for Linux, something like Norton
>>> Ghost, are there any good open source one?
>>> I would like one where I can boot off the CD to run the tool.
>>
>> Try the gparted livecd/usb and dd. Or any livecd/usb image for that matter.
>>
>> Jamon
>> --
> Jamon, thanks for the info, I was able to find the SystemRescueCD
> which provides exactly this.
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

On a Ubuntu liveCD you can also grab it from apt if you update your
sources to include universe. Just mentioning it because sometimes I've
had issues with SRCD not having the hardware drivers I might have
needed at a given time.
--
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From erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 11 23:22:30 2009
From: erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Erik (Caneris))
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:22:30 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907111338m69206547q6149e07b11d01f53-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>	 <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com>
	 <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com>
	 <4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com>
	 <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com>,<3a97ef0907111338m69206547q6149e07b11d01f53@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974B@klsapp1.klssys.com>

Tyler wrote: 
> Erik,are you saying that you encrypt traffic between the customers'
> modem and your own endpoint, or is this just for employee's etc? Seems
> like a smart way of doing things, and if you've managed to thus avoid
> Bell's idiocy then I must applaud you for that! When you can't trust
> the corps or your government/regulators to ensure fair and unbiased
> service, it seems that a dedicated team of innovative "hackers" can
> still manage to get the job done.
> 
The SSH tunnel feature is for customers. It allows our DSL customers to use any application which is able to use a SOCKS5 proxy to bypass the throttling. See http://www.caneris.com/Support#sshtunnel for an example.

This is not the same as encryption between the two PPP endpoints; for that we'd have to be doing MPPE on our LNSs and on the CPE side. There is also MLPPP, which is another method for avoiding the throttling. I commented on all of this briefly in another post, so I'll refrain from getting into the details here. As far as end users are concerned, the effects on their applications, namely bypassing Bell's throttling, are the same in all cases. There are various technical and usability advantages and disadvantages to each method.

> My main concern in this would be that if encryption became widespread,
> then Bell may end up throttling *all* the traffic for third-party
> ISP's down to a less-than-optimal level. However at that point I think
> that even the regulators couldn't ignore this as anti-competitive.
>
Right now the CRTC is in the midst of the Internet Traffic Management hearings, which may have an effect on the current DPI/throttling employed by Bell Canada. As I mentioned in another post, there are several matters before the Commission now which are bound to have an effect on all of this.

Erik
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 12 01:22:33 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:22:33 -0400
Subject: Neowin Exclusive: Stallman on the current state of GNU/Linux
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907111822o53215c26sc73ce28433406c59@mail.gmail.com>

>From the article:

Richard M. Stallman is defined by Wikipedia as being an "American
software freedom activist, hacker and software developer." He is
perhaps most notably known for his work on the Free Software movement.
Stallman is also the father of the GNU operating system, that which is
commonly referred to as Linux but more accurately defined as
GNU/Linux.

Link:

http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/07/11/neowin-exclusive-stallman-on-the-current-state-of-gnulinux


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 12 01:37:11 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:37:11 -0400
Subject: Managed switches and 'nix (WAS: TP-Link gigabit managed
 switch)
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907111329k5e3b9d94v8fab4cb857d45c36-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907111329k5e3b9d94v8fab4cb857d45c36@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A593E47.1040603@rogers.com>

Tyler Aviss wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>   
>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 05:04:58PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
>>     
>>> Actually, it's likely only 2 gigabit ports.  You can use either copper
>>> or fibre via SPF module, but not both.  At least that the way it works
>>> on all the switches I've worked with.
>>>       
>> It has two permanent gig copper ports and two SFP ports.  It says you
>> can use 4 Gig ports.  It is a 28 port switch (hence the 28 in the name).
>>
>> --
>> Len Sorensen
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>>     
>
>
> Seems I've opened a can of worms on this :-)
> Since it's only got the two gig ports (the SFP I suppose would be nice
> if modules didn't cost more than a switch these days) it's not quite
> as attractive as all-gig. However, price-wise it was still comparable
> in terms of the last "managed" switches the price isn't too bad,
> depending on how well the management, snmp, VLAN, and other such
> things actually work.
>
>
> Actually, along that vein I would recommend that anyone in a 'nix shop
> seeing products listed as "Cisco Small Business" steer clear. Where I
> previously worked we bought a few and found they're actually just
> Linksys crap (which some vendors don't advertise on the site,
> preferring the big name of "Cisco Small Business"). I don't remember
> the particular models we got, but they were 48-port managed switches,
> however the management console actually *REQUIRED* windows+IE+ActiveX
> to configure the VLAN's etc to work. They had no telnet console. No
> cross-browser compatibility, and a few other missing things like SNMP.
>
> It seems to me a sad day when even core networking equipment is tied
> to a given OS, but I thought I'd pass along a warning to anyone else
> that has to deal with this. Not all vendors use the "Cisco Small
> Business" label, as many are a bit more honest and list them as
> "Linksys".
>   

As I understand it, Cisco is planning on dropping the Linksys name and
calling everything Cisco.  The gear I'm most familiar with is made by
Adtran.  That link is for a switch that's similar to the Adtran 1224,
though it may be closer to the replacement for the 1224, however, I've
forgotten that model number.  With the Adtran gear, you can use a
browser with HTTP or HTTPS or CLI via telnet, SSH or serial port. 
Adtran's AOS is similar to Cisco's IOS.  I have used SFP modules on jobs
where fibre is necessary due to distance.

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 12 01:41:36 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:41:36 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974B-dCwRk7XjkHbuDgzvhp7rgdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com>	 <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>	 <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com>	 <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com>	 <4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com>	 <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com>,<3a97ef0907111338m69206547q6149e07b11d01f53@mail.gmail.com> <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974B@klsapp1.klssys.com>
Message-ID: <4A593F50.4050001@rogers.com>

Erik (Caneris) wrote:
> Tyler wrote: 
>   
>> Erik,are you saying that you encrypt traffic between the customers'
>> modem and your own endpoint, or is this just for employee's etc? Seems
>> like a smart way of doing things, and if you've managed to thus avoid
>> Bell's idiocy then I must applaud you for that! When you can't trust
>> the corps or your government/regulators to ensure fair and unbiased
>> service, it seems that a dedicated team of innovative "hackers" can
>> still manage to get the job done.
>>
>>     
> The SSH tunnel feature is for customers. It allows our DSL customers to use any application which is able to use a SOCKS5 proxy to bypass the throttling. See http://www.caneris.com/Support#sshtunnel for an example.
>
>   

As I understand this, you may have problems caused by two TCP
connections trying to maintain the traffic flow.  It's one reason why
VPNs should be using UDP, instead of TCP.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 12 02:07:26 2009
From: erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Erik (Caneris))
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:07:26 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <4A593F50.4050001-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>	 <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com>
	 <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com>
	 <4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com>
	 <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com>,<3a97ef0907111338m69206547q6149e07b11d01f53@mail.gmail.com>
 <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974B@klsapp1.klssys.com>,<4A593F50.4050001@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974C@klsapp1.klssys.com>

James wrote:
> As I understand this, you may have problems caused by two TCP
> connections trying to maintain the traffic flow.  It's one reason why
> VPNs should be using UDP, instead of TCP.
>
Indeed, as with any TCP-over-TCP tunneling, it's not an optimal solution. There are a couple of other, bigger, issues with this setup, but it's only our first attempt at it and it's something that will improve with time. The two alternatives I mentioned before, MLPPP and MPPE, each have their own advantages and disadvantages, just like this method.

How much could another layer of encapsulation and tunneling possibly hurt? :)
After all, it's only TCP over IP over TCP over IP over PPP over L2TP over UDP over IP over Ethernet, and that's just to get to Bell.

Erik
--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 12 02:15:56 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:15:56 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974C-dCwRk7XjkHbuDgzvhp7rgdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com>	 <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>	 <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com>	 <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com>	 <4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com>	 <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com>,<3a97ef0907111338m69206547q6149e07b11d01f53@mail.gmail.com> <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974B@klsapp1.klssys.com>,<4A593F50.4050001@rogers.com> <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974C@klsapp1.klssys.com>
Message-ID: <4A59475C.1010005@rogers.com>

Erik (Caneris) wrote:
> James wrote:
>   
>> As I understand this, you may have problems caused by two TCP
>> connections trying to maintain the traffic flow.  It's one reason why
>> VPNs should be using UDP, instead of TCP.
>>
>>     
> Indeed, as with any TCP-over-TCP tunneling, it's not an optimal solution. There are a couple of other, bigger, issues with this setup, but it's only our first attempt at it and it's something that will improve with time. The two alternatives I mentioned before, MLPPP and MPPE, each have their own advantages and disadvantages, just like this method.
>
> How much could another layer of encapsulation and tunneling possibly hurt? :)
> After all, it's only TCP over IP over TCP over IP over PPP over L2TP over UDP over IP over Ethernet, and that's just to get to Bell.
>
>   

It's not the extra encapsulation that's the problem.  It's two TCP
streams trying to maintain traffic flow.  TCP can adjust to network
changes.  If you have two TCP connections, they may conflict, causing
performance issues.  This does not occur when UDP is used as it's
performance characteristics are the same as bare ethernet.  Have you
considered something like OpenVPN?  Or at least SSL?


--
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From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 12 03:06:09 2009
From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:06:09 -0400
Subject: partition backup
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907111340n6f959111hc477dd943b1dc69c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907100736v23138dcdg20bc9e99b19d3bbf@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A57536D.9060804@utoronto.ca>
	 <a05162a70907101006p4e897adfhdb7b655baa459b0e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <3a97ef0907111340n6f959111hc477dd943b1dc69c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7a05bcd0907112006h1b45d18docc0f5fad6506b898@mail.gmail.com>

partimage is a great tool - also on the systemrescuecd.

On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Tyler Aviss <tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Rajinder Yadav<devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Jamon
> > Camisso<jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I am looking for a partition backup for Linux, something like Norton
> >>> Ghost, are there any good open source one?
> >>> I would like one where I can boot off the CD to run the tool.
> >>
> >> Try the gparted livecd/usb and dd. Or any livecd/usb image for that
> matter.
> >>
> >> Jamon
> >> --
> > Jamon, thanks for the info, I was able to find the SystemRescueCD
> > which provides exactly this.
> >
> > --
> > Kind Regards,
> > Rajinder Yadav
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> >
>
> On a Ubuntu liveCD you can also grab it from apt if you update your
> sources to include universe. Just mentioning it because sometimes I've
> had issues with SRCD not having the hardware drivers I might have
> needed at a given time.
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 12 03:40:14 2009
From: erik_list-etARiVBfTZtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Erik (Caneris))
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:40:14 -0400
Subject: Acanac...?
In-Reply-To: <4A59475C.1010005-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907101039m39116a8n49fd299bb25bb72b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <loom.20090710T215616-857@post.gmane.org>	 <4A57BC9E.7010003@alteeve.com>
	 <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E9747@klsapp1.klssys.com>
	 <4A57D0E8.1090103@alteeve.com>
	 <7c50d3570907101647p3220e2c9mb8f2f60408ff9b7e@mail.gmail.com>,<3a97ef0907111338m69206547q6149e07b11d01f53@mail.gmail.com>
 <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974B@klsapp1.klssys.com>,<4A593F50.4050001@rogers.com>
 <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974C@klsapp1.klssys.com>,<4A59475C.1010005@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <E00B9EBD1532EF4EABA3C51B190BA6150358BF5E974D@klsapp1.klssys.com>

James wrote:
> It's not the extra encapsulation that's the problem.  It's two TCP
> streams trying to maintain traffic flow.  TCP can adjust to network
> changes.  If you have two TCP connections, they may conflict, causing
> performance issues.  This does not occur when UDP is used as it's
> performance characteristics are the same as bare ethernet.  Have you
> considered something like OpenVPN?  Or at least SSL?
> 
Clearly my sarcasm was missed, despite the smiley face. Yes, I know what the potential problem is.

SSL or OpenVPN (well, still SSL) were not yet considered, but they're excellent ideas, so we'll definitely take a look at them. 

Every solution has good and bad about it and nothing's perfect, but out of all the solutions, the SSH tunnel requires the least amount of hardware/software/changes on the CPE side, the least amount of work on our side, and it works across the largest amount of platforms. 

Of course, the regulatory solution beats all of those ;)

Erik
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 12 20:57:15 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 16:57:15 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
Message-ID: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone here been using Kubuntu 64 for sometime? Is the system overall
pretty stable? I noticed the other day the CodeBlocks my fav IDE seem
to crash both with the one obtained using get-apt and built from
tarball source. I've logged the error wit the CB developer.

I just want to know if anyone else has seen odd crashes on this distro?

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 03:22:35 2009
From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:22:35 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>

Since the acquisition of my new 64-bit machine, I have found that with such 
firepower, you get stability in Linux all right. Now if only they can write 
software for it. Much of what I wanted in Linux didn't have 64-bit versions. 
Even on Firefox, it was some time before any flash applets would work, once 
they were written. 

This problem was compounded by the fact that I recently purchased a new HP 
multifunction color laser printer, which didn't work in Linux that well. In 
addition, my 1 TB external drive (with accomodata firewire/usb housing) is not 
recognised, and Ubuntu has been notoriously slow with updates on this 
architecture. When I was using 32-bit, not logging on for a month would mean 
that there were a myriad of updates waiting for my approval. Doing the same 
thing now in the 64-bit system would yield nothing or very little in the way of 
updates. To date, I have a 64-bit OS, with a blank (icon-less) desktop since it 
seems nothing will connect to it.

We have entered a new "low phase" in Linux: the long wait for apps to run in 
the new 64-bit architecture. I think this happened before, when the 
architecture first moved to 32-bit.

Paul King

> Anyone here been using Kubuntu 64 for sometime? Is the system overall
> pretty stable? I noticed the other day the CodeBlocks my fav IDE seem
> to crash both with the one obtained using get-apt and built from
> tarball source. I've logged the error wit the CB developer.
> 
> I just want to know if anyone else has seen odd crashes on this distro?
> 
> -- 
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 4237 (20090712) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 


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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 05:00:31 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:00:31 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Paul King<sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Since the acquisition of my new 64-bit machine, I have found that with such
> firepower, you get stability in Linux all right. Now if only they can write
> software for it. Much of what I wanted in Linux didn't have 64-bit versions.
> Even on Firefox, it was some time before any flash applets would work, once
> they were written.
>
> This problem was compounded by the fact that I recently purchased a new HP
> multifunction color laser printer, which didn't work in Linux that well. In
> addition, my 1 TB external drive (with accomodata firewire/usb housing) is not
> recognised, and Ubuntu has been notoriously slow with updates on this
> architecture. When I was using 32-bit, not logging on for a month would mean
> that there were a myriad of updates waiting for my approval. Doing the same
> thing now in the 64-bit system would yield nothing or very little in the way of
> updates. To date, I have a 64-bit OS, with a blank (icon-less) desktop since it
> seems nothing will connect to it.
>
> We have entered a new "low phase" in Linux: the long wait for apps to run in
> the new 64-bit architecture. I think this happened before, when the
> architecture first moved to 32-bit.
>
> Paul King

Paul,

thanks for the feedback. As a precaution I have decided to make
Fedora11 x32 my main Linux development OS for now. Although fedora11
upgrades keep crapping out for me!

I looked into Kubuntu x64 as a way to stay on top of Linux 64bit
development, but I have to admit it will only server as OS I use to
learn about 64bit C++ development.

I was planning on upping the anti about developing a Linux from
scratch by using the 64bit Linux to cross compile for a 32bit Linux. I
will have to come back to this once I get a good feel for doing things
in the 32bit environment =)

Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 08:36:00 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 04:36:00 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>
	 <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907130136s24400685u240a633686e1234d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 1:00 AM, Rajinder Yadav<devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Paul King<sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Since the acquisition of my new 64-bit machine, I have found that with such
>> firepower, you get stability in Linux all right. Now if only they can write
>> software for it. Much of what I wanted in Linux didn't have 64-bit versions.
>> Even on Firefox, it was some time before any flash applets would work, once
>> they were written.
>>
>> This problem was compounded by the fact that I recently purchased a new HP
>> multifunction color laser printer, which didn't work in Linux that well. In
>> addition, my 1 TB external drive (with accomodata firewire/usb housing) is not
>> recognised, and Ubuntu has been notoriously slow with updates on this
>> architecture. When I was using 32-bit, not logging on for a month would mean
>> that there were a myriad of updates waiting for my approval. Doing the same
>> thing now in the 64-bit system would yield nothing or very little in the way of
>> updates. To date, I have a 64-bit OS, with a blank (icon-less) desktop since it
>> seems nothing will connect to it.
>>
>> We have entered a new "low phase" in Linux: the long wait for apps to run in
>> the new 64-bit architecture. I think this happened before, when the
>> architecture first moved to 32-bit.
>>
>> Paul King
>
> Paul,
>
> thanks for the feedback. As a precaution I have decided to make
> Fedora11 x32 my main Linux development OS for now. Although fedora11
> upgrades keep crapping out for me!
>
> I looked into Kubuntu x64 as a way to stay on top of Linux 64bit
> development, but I have to admit it will only server as OS I use to
> learn about 64bit C++ development.
>
> I was planning on upping the anti about developing a Linux from
> scratch by using the 64bit Linux to cross compile for a 32bit Linux. I
> will have to come back to this once I get a good feel for doing things
> in the 32bit environment =)
>
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
>

I have also given up on Fedora11 working on my system, it is totally
crap. I can't manage to get a legit update completed, several
attempts. When I partial update only the "bugs" and I reboot my system
gets hosed and I end up in a console window, this has happened twice.

Very disappointed and annoyed with Fedora11, not solid/stable at all
... Kubuntu x64 was more solid and stable from a OS (base) point of
view, I was able to update and reboot with no issues.

I am going to give Kubuntu x32 a try, hopefully I can have a solid
Linux OS working soon.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 12:29:21 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:29:21 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com> <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>
Message-ID: <4A5B28A1.1010602@rogers.com>

Paul King wrote:
> We have entered a new "low phase" in Linux: the long wait for apps to run in 
> the new 64-bit architecture. I think this happened before, when the 
> architecture first moved to 32-bit.
>   
I have been running 64 bit OpenSUSE for over 3 years and don't seem to
have those problems.  The only issue I've had is browser plugins, so I
simply run the 32 bit browsers.  Also, I don't think Linux was ever less
than 32 bits, as it was originally written for the i386.  You should be
able to run 32 bit apps on 64 bit systems, as I have done.



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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 15:50:29 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:50:29 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <4A5B28A1.1010602-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net> <4A5B28A1.1010602@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907130850j76a8a204m2e695fdfa76ce25d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 8:29 AM, James Knott<james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Paul King wrote:
>> We have entered a new "low phase" in Linux: the long wait for apps to run in
>> the new 64-bit architecture. I think this happened before, when the
>> architecture first moved to 32-bit.
>>
> I have been running 64 bit OpenSUSE for over 3 years and don't seem to
> have those problems. ?The only issue I've had is browser plugins, so I
> simply run the 32 bit browsers. ?Also, I don't think Linux was ever less
> than 32 bits, as it was originally written for the i386. ?You should be
> able to run 32 bit apps on 64 bit systems, as I have done.

Apparently from what I have been able to gather, there is a bug with
wxWidgets, this is what seems to be crashing CodeBlocks. The crash
happen when a child window panel is moved around, trying to align it
to the side of the main window. I am sure the same bug will be
apparent on OpenSUSE x64.

This bug is only there for x64 Linux as I also have codeblocks running
on CentOS 5.3 which a only x32 and it is rock solid. It's ugly sister
Fedora11 seems to be alpha trash on my box?

I will give OpenSUSE x64 a go.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 17:56:48 2009
From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:56:48 -0400
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
Message-ID: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca>

I find myself having to install Linux firewall boxes in front on Window 
servers.
(dont ask dont tell) I do not want big +bulky for the Linux firewalls. 
Smaller is better.

I could use DLinks or Cisco/Linksys, but I know a Linux firewall would 
be better. (perhaps for cheaper in this case)

Any ideas/urls for tiny form factors?
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 18:06:32 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:06:32 -0400
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <4A5B7560.6090902-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca>
Message-ID: <4A5B77A8.5050508@rogers.com>

teddy mills wrote:
> I find myself having to install Linux firewall boxes in front on
> Window servers.
> (dont ask dont tell) I do not want big +bulky for the Linux firewalls.
> Smaller is better.
>
> I could use DLinks or Cisco/Linksys, but I know a Linux firewall would
> be better. (perhaps for cheaper in this case)
>
> Any ideas/urls for tiny form factors?

Some boxes, such as the Linksys WRT54GL run Linux.  What's wrong with them?

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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 18:09:55 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:09:55 -0400
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <4A5B7560.6090902-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca>
Message-ID: <4A5B7873.70302@utoronto.ca>

teddy mills wrote:
> I find myself having to install Linux firewall boxes in front on Window 
> servers.
> (dont ask dont tell) I do not want big +bulky for the Linux firewalls. 
> Smaller is better.
> 
> I could use DLinks or Cisco/Linksys, but I know a Linux firewall would 
> be better. (perhaps for cheaper in this case)
> 
> Any ideas/urls for tiny form factors?
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

How about a $99 SheevaPlug on a vlan? Only 1 gige port which could be a 
problem depending on your network setup. I think Tim at the linuxcaffe 
got one recently, ask him about it. They're tiny, 512mb ram, running a 
1.2ghz arm processor with a usb port too.

http://www.plugcomputer.org lists Gentoo and Ubuntu os images, so I'd 
expect any distro with an arm port would run on it very well. 5 watts 
power consumption too.

Jamon
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 20:39:35 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:39:35 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com> <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>
Message-ID: <20090713203935.GS15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 11:22:35PM -0400, Paul King wrote:
> Since the acquisition of my new 64-bit machine, I have found that with such 
> firepower, you get stability in Linux all right. Now if only they can write 
> software for it. Much of what I wanted in Linux didn't have 64-bit versions. 
> Even on Firefox, it was some time before any flash applets would work, once 
> they were written. 
> 
> This problem was compounded by the fact that I recently purchased a new HP 
> multifunction color laser printer, which didn't work in Linux that well. In 
> addition, my 1 TB external drive (with accomodata firewire/usb housing) is not 
> recognised, and Ubuntu has been notoriously slow with updates on this 
> architecture. When I was using 32-bit, not logging on for a month would mean 
> that there were a myriad of updates waiting for my approval. Doing the same 
> thing now in the 64-bit system would yield nothing or very little in the way of 
> updates. To date, I have a 64-bit OS, with a blank (icon-less) desktop since it 
> seems nothing will connect to it.
> 
> We have entered a new "low phase" in Linux: the long wait for apps to run in 
> the new 64-bit architecture. I think this happened before, when the 
> architecture first moved to 32-bit.

Well linux was always at least 32bit.  Certainly windows has (and still
has) issues with old 16bit code.  Windows in 64bit mode can't run 16bit
windows code at all (and gives a very cryptic error message if you try).

Now certainly my linux system in 64bit mode has working flash, epson
printer works fine, usb driver works fine, etc.  Really no problems
at all.  Pretty much the only 32bit only software left causing any issues
would be proprietary closed source stuf like acroread and such and you
can pretty much do without those.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 20:41:21 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:41:21 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com> <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net> <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090713204121.GT15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 01:00:31AM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> thanks for the feedback. As a precaution I have decided to make
> Fedora11 x32 my main Linux development OS for now. Although fedora11
> upgrades keep crapping out for me!
> 
> I looked into Kubuntu x64 as a way to stay on top of Linux 64bit
> development, but I have to admit it will only server as OS I use to
> learn about 64bit C++ development.
> 
> I was planning on upping the anti about developing a Linux from
> scratch by using the 64bit Linux to cross compile for a 32bit Linux. I
> will have to come back to this once I get a good feel for doing things
> in the 32bit environment =)

Cross compiling is pretty much a pain in the ass.

Now you can simply create a 32bit chroot environment for compiling for
32bit systems and run them using 'linux32 chroot'  That way an
amd64/x86_64 system appears as an i686 to the software being compiled.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 20:43:01 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:43:01 -0400
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <4A5B7560.6090902-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca>
Message-ID: <20090713204301.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 01:56:48PM -0400, teddy mills wrote:
> I find myself having to install Linux firewall boxes in front on Window  
> servers.
> (dont ask dont tell) I do not want big +bulky for the Linux firewalls.  
> Smaller is better.
>
> I could use DLinks or Cisco/Linksys, but I know a Linux firewall would  
> be better. (perhaps for cheaper in this case)
>
> Any ideas/urls for tiny form factors?

Tiny tends to make it expensive.  The cheapest way to build a firewall
is to go buy a used PC (like a P3/P4 level machine) for $100 or so,
or find one given away fo free.  Still much more capable and powerful
than any linksys box.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 20:44:16 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:44:16 -0400
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <4A5B7873.70302-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca> <4A5B7873.70302@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20090713204416.GV15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 02:09:55PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> teddy mills wrote:
>> I find myself having to install Linux firewall boxes in front on Window 
>> servers.
>> (dont ask dont tell) I do not want big +bulky for the Linux firewalls.  
>> Smaller is better.
>>
>> I could use DLinks or Cisco/Linksys, but I know a Linux firewall would  
>> be better. (perhaps for cheaper in this case)
>>
>> Any ideas/urls for tiny form factors?
>> -- 
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
> How about a $99 SheevaPlug on a vlan? Only 1 gige port which could be a  
> problem depending on your network setup. I think Tim at the linuxcaffe  
> got one recently, ask him about it. They're tiny, 512mb ram, running a  
> 1.2ghz arm processor with a usb port too.
>
> http://www.plugcomputer.org lists Gentoo and Ubuntu os images, so I'd  
> expect any distro with an arm port would run on it very well. 5 watts  
> power consumption too.

Much better version for that (and many other) job(s).
http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/p-24-openrd-client-openrd-client-board-with-enclosure.aspx

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 22:13:33 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:13:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <20090713204301.GU15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca> <20090713204301.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907131754010.19007@castor.opentrend.net>

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> Tiny tends to make it expensive.  The cheapest way to build a firewall
> is to go buy a used PC (like a P3/P4 level machine) for $100 or so,
> or find one given away fo free.  Still much more capable and powerful
> than any linksys box.

I use this approach all the time.  If the box can boot USB then you can do 
without a HDD.  This cuts down the noise, power consumption and reduces 
the liklihood of a h/w failure.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 23:21:30 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:21:30 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <20090713204121.GT15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>
	 <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090713204121.GT15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907131621y4ce591c8jd58f79fc3ed20ad0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 01:00:31AM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> thanks for the feedback. As a precaution I have decided to make
>> Fedora11 x32 my main Linux development OS for now. Although fedora11
>> upgrades keep crapping out for me!
>>
>> I looked into Kubuntu x64 as a way to stay on top of Linux 64bit
>> development, but I have to admit it will only server as OS I use to
>> learn about 64bit C++ development.
>>
>> I was planning on upping the anti about developing a Linux from
>> scratch by using the 64bit Linux to cross compile for a 32bit Linux. I
>> will have to come back to this once I get a good feel for doing things
>> in the 32bit environment =)
>
> Cross compiling is pretty much a pain in the ass.
>
> Now you can simply create a 32bit chroot environment for compiling for
> 32bit systems and run them using 'linux32 chroot' ?That way an
> amd64/x86_64 system appears as an i686 to the software being compiled.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --

I trust that cross compiling is a pain. I am still trying to
understand what is required to have multiple GCC version and making
sure they compile and link with the proper GCC version. The GNU GCC
page is pretty lame when it comes to telling you how to do this.

It's just that I have 4G of RAM and I am itching to make it all
available, on x32 I only see 3G.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 23:46:41 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:46:41 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907131621y4ce591c8jd58f79fc3ed20ad0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com> <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net> <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b@mail.gmail.com> <20090713204121.GT15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907131621y4ce591c8jd58f79fc3ed20ad0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090713234641.GW15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 07:21:30PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> I trust that cross compiling is a pain. I am still trying to
> understand what is required to have multiple GCC version and making
> sure they compile and link with the proper GCC version. The GNU GCC
> page is pretty lame when it comes to telling you how to do this.
> 
> It's just that I have 4G of RAM and I am itching to make it all
> available, on x32 I only see 3G.

Well x86_32 with PAE can use more than 3GB for the system, but a single
process will still be limited.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 13 23:49:39 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:49:39 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907131621y4ce591c8jd58f79fc3ed20ad0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>	 <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b@mail.gmail.com>	 <20090713204121.GT15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907131621y4ce591c8jd58f79fc3ed20ad0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A5BC813.8050800@utoronto.ca>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Cross compiling is pretty much a pain in the ass.
>>
>> Now you can simply create a 32bit chroot environment for compiling for
>> 32bit systems and run them using 'linux32 chroot'  That way an
>> amd64/x86_64 system appears as an i686 to the software being compiled.
> 
> I trust that cross compiling is a pain. I am still trying to
> understand what is required to have multiple GCC version and making
> sure they compile and link with the proper GCC version. The GNU GCC
> page is pretty lame when it comes to telling you how to do this.
> 
> It's just that I have 4G of RAM and I am itching to make it all
> available, on x32 I only see 3G.

"export CC=/usr/bin/gcc-4.x" where x is the version you want to use for 
the package you are compiling.

For 4gb+ on an x86 system, you want a pae enabled kernel. I don't know 
how 32bit Ubuntu does it, but I'd imagine their linux-image package has 
a server version that has pae extensions compiled in.

Jamon

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From lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 01:10:22 2009
From: lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Julian C. Dunn)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:10:22 -0400
Subject: best kitten entertainment program for Linux?
Message-ID: <1247533822.2524.4.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com>

I have an amusing request for TLUGgers. My new kitten regards the mouse
cursor (har-de-har-har) on my Linux box as something worth chasing.
Although this is irritating while attempting to get some work done, I
find it extremely entertaining when not.

I wonder if there is a program that would randomly move the mouse cursor
around so the cat can be entertained when I am not at the computer?

For those who are about to suggest it, yes, I did try oneko (har har
again) but Neko stops moving when the mouse cursor stops moving. I also
tried the Fedora Bubbles screensaver but the bubbles aren't sharp enough
for the kitten to follow.

- Julian

-- 
[ Julian C. Dunn <jdunn-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>          * Sorry, I'm    ]
[ WWW: http://www.aquezada.com/staff/julian    * only Web 1.0  ]
[ gopher://sdf.lonestar.org/11/users/keymaker  * compliant!    ]
[ PGP: 91B3 7A9D 683C 7C16 715F 442C 6065 D533 FDC2 05B9       ]

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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 01:17:07 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:17:07 -0400
Subject: best kitten entertainment program for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1247533822.2524.4.camel-sd4rSCkhOeu0gumUbo5taVDdeaDYgqOw@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247533822.2524.4.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907131817j1cb30a2fg651a520bfb1fcc55@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/13/09, Julian C. Dunn <lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I have an amusing request for TLUGgers. My new kitten regards the mouse
> cursor (har-de-har-har) on my Linux box as something worth chasing.
> Although this is irritating while attempting to get some work done, I
> find it extremely entertaining when not.
>
> I wonder if there is a program that would randomly move the mouse cursor
> around so the cat can be entertained when I am not at the computer?
>
> For those who are about to suggest it, yes, I did try oneko (har har
> again) but Neko stops moving when the mouse cursor stops moving. I also
> tried the Fedora Bubbles screensaver but the bubbles aren't sharp enough
> for the kitten to follow.
>
> - Julian
>
> --
> [ Julian C. Dunn <jdunn-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>          * Sorry, I'm    ]
> [ WWW: http://www.aquezada.com/staff/julian    * only Web 1.0  ]
> [ gopher://sdf.lonestar.org/11/users/keymaker  * compliant!    ]
> [ PGP: 91B3 7A9D 683C 7C16 715F 442C 6065 D533 FDC2 05B9       ]
>

what about swarm for the screen saver?

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 02:26:51 2009
From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:26:51 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <4A5B28A1.1010602-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>, <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>, <4A5B28A1.1010602@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4A5BB4AB.5765.41800A2@sciguy.vex.net>

My experience with running 32-bit apps under Ubuntu were generally that they 
even refuse to install, let alone run.

Paul King

> Paul King wrote:
> > We have entered a new "low phase" in Linux: the long wait for apps to run in
> > the new 64-bit architecture. I think this happened before, when the
> > architecture first moved to 32-bit.
> >   
> I have been running 64 bit OpenSUSE for over 3 years and don't seem to
> have those problems.  The only issue I've had is browser plugins, so I
> simply run the 32 bit browsers.  Also, I don't think Linux was ever less
> than 32 bits, as it was originally written for the i386.  You should be
> able to run 32 bit apps on 64 bit systems, as I have done.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 4240 (20090713) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 


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From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 03:41:33 2009
From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:41:33 -0400
Subject: best kitten entertainment program for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1247533822.2524.4.camel-sd4rSCkhOeu0gumUbo5taVDdeaDYgqOw@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247533822.2524.4.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com>
Message-ID: <20090713234133.6af7307e.hgibson@eol.ca>

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:10:22 -0400
"Julian C. Dunn" <lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I have an amusing request for TLUGgers. My new kitten regards the mouse
> cursor (har-de-har-har) on my Linux box as something worth chasing.
> Although this is irritating while attempting to get some work done, I
> find it extremely entertaining when not.
> 
> I wonder if there is a program that would randomly move the mouse cursor
> around so the cat can be entertained when I am not at the computer?
> 
> For those who are about to suggest it, yes, I did try oneko (har har
> again) but Neko stops moving when the mouse cursor stops moving. I also
> tried the Fedora Bubbles screensaver but the bubbles aren't sharp enough
> for the kitten to follow.
> 
> - Julian

Julian,

    It is unpredictable what cats will like.  Neither of my cats are interested in the computer screen.  One of them sits on the keyboard while I am trying to type.  The other one knocks stuffs off the shelf behind me to attract attention.  

    Cat toys are popular for a while, then the cats grow tired of them and start playing with something else.  This is sort of like me with video games.  You could always find a video game that you find fascinating.  FlightGear?  Arena?  It will be your cat's duty to interrupt you.

    What moves your cursor around when you are not trying to get work done?

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org
howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org 
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 03:43:49 2009
From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:43:49 -0400
Subject: best kitten entertainment program for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1247533822.2524.4.camel-sd4rSCkhOeu0gumUbo5taVDdeaDYgqOw@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247533822.2524.4.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com>
Message-ID: <4A5BFEF5.6020502@linuxcaffe.ca>

Julian C. Dunn wrote:
> I have an amusing request for TLUGgers. My new kitten regards the mouse
> cursor (har-de-har-har) on my Linux box as something worth chasing.
find an emulator and play pong
djp
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From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 13:11:52 2009
From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:11:52 -0400
Subject: best kitten entertainment program for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1247533822.2524.4.camel-sd4rSCkhOeu0gumUbo5taVDdeaDYgqOw@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247533822.2524.4.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com>
Message-ID: <4A5C8418.5030701@gmail.com>

Julian C. Dunn wrote:
> I have an amusing request for TLUGgers. My new kitten regards the mouse
> cursor (har-de-har-har) on my Linux box as something worth chasing.
> Although this is irritating while attempting to get some work done, I
> find it extremely entertaining when not.
...


Try this, there are lots of weird extensions, like decimal sleeps,
printf and tput, 80x25 terminal, but it works in my boring Ubuntu
install and it's easy enough that your kitten should be able to fix it :-)

#!/bin/bash

x=20
y=20
xdir=1
ydir=1
width=77
height=23

clear

while [ 1 ]
do
        if [ $x -gt $height ]; then xdir=-1; fi
        if [ $y -gt $width ]; then ydir=-1; fi
        if [ $x -lt 1 ]; then xdir=1; fi
        if [ $y -lt 1 ]; then ydir=1; fi

        tput cup $x $y
        printf "#"

        sleep .05

        tput cup $x $y
        printf " "

        x=$(( x + xdir ))
        y=$(( y + ydir ))


done


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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 13:44:48 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:44:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: best kitten entertainment program for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1247533822.2524.4.camel-sd4rSCkhOeu0gumUbo5taVDdeaDYgqOw@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247533822.2524.4.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907140941090.19007@castor.opentrend.net>

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Julian C. Dunn wrote:

> I wonder if there is a program that would randomly move the mouse cursor
> around so the cat can be entertained when I am not at the computer?

Hi Julian.  Aren't you concerned about kitten size scratch marks on the 
LCD when you return? :)

> For those who are about to suggest it, yes, I did try oneko (har har
> again) but Neko stops moving when the mouse cursor stops moving. I also

Yes Neko goes for a nap if you stop moving the mouse :)

Also check out the oneko man page.  I love it :)

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
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From rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 14:12:47 2009
From: rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Dice)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:12:47 -0400
Subject: Damian Conway event, Monday 27 July 2009
Message-ID: <5bef4baf0907140712i32eee470jd0b3b3a45c76f6a7@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

Damian Conway, world-class Perl programming expert and extremely fun and
energetic presenter, will be giving a free public talk in Toronto in
about 2 weeks, on the evening of July 27.  If you can fit it into your
schedule I'm sure you'll enjoy the experience.  Here are the details:

Presenter:  Dr. Damian Conway, the Mad Scientist of Perl
            http://damian.conway.org/About_us//Bio_formal.html
            http://www.googlism.com/index.htm?ism=damian+conway&type=1
Talk Title: The Missing Link
Details:    What do watching trees grow, debugging debuggers,
            Greek mythology, code that writes code that writes code
             that writes code, the hazards of LaTeX, successful failures,
            the treacherous Vorta, objective syntax, anti-stacks,
             Danish mind-control, active null statements, synthetic standup,
            and the prospect of certain death all have in common?
             Watch as Damian weaves them together into a new and improbably
            useful module that demonstrates the awesome power and beauty
             of Perl 5.10.
Date:       Monday 27 July 2009
Time:       7pm - 9pm
            show up early to get a seat, find place to park if you're
             driving, etc.
Location:   Bahen Centre for IT
             Room 1160 (i.e. the major lecture theater on the ground floor)
            University of Toronto St. George (downtown) campus
             40 St. George Street
            (just North of College on the East side of St. George)
Parking:    See the following URL for information about parking on
            UofT St. George campus
             http://tinyurl.com/u-of-t-parking
            Looks like there is an underground lot directly beneath
             Bahen Centre (marker #17).  I also find it convenient to
            park on King's College Circle (marker #13).
Transit:    St. George subway Stn, St. George St. exit,
            walk south approx. 7 minutes
             _or_ Queen's Park subway Stn., walk west approx. 5 minutes
            _or_ College streetcar westbound from either College Stn
             or Queen's Park Stn (but walking may be faster than waiting
            for a car, especially if you're at Queen's Park Stn)

Hope to see you there!

Cheers,
- Richard
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 14:25:15 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:25:15 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <4A5BB4AB.5765.41800A2-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>, <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>, <4A5B28A1.1010602@rogers.com> <4A5BB4AB.5765.41800A2@sciguy.vex.net>
Message-ID: <4A5C954B.1040805@rogers.com>

Paul King wrote:
> My experience with running 32-bit apps under Ubuntu were generally that they 
> even refuse to install, let alone run.
>   
Curious.  With OpenSUSE, in Yast, you can specify which version you want
to install.

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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 15:19:09 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:19:09 -0700
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <4A5B7560.6090902-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907140819r6a788caas843ed3960ec28185@mail.gmail.com>

I have a Jetway motherboard with a VIA C-7 processor. I'm not sure of
the exact model but I believe it's been replaced with newer ones (I've
seen similar with an Atom instead of a C-7). The board has dual NICs,
and one legacy IDE interface which you could use with an IDE-CF
adaptor.

It's somewhat convenient since it comes with the board/cpu/NIC. Some
boards have integrated DC power jacks, or you can get an adaptor like
a PicoPSU, etc.



On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 10:56 AM, teddy mills<teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I find myself having to install Linux firewall boxes in front on Window
> servers.
> (dont ask dont tell) I do not want big +bulky for the Linux firewalls.
> Smaller is better.
>
> I could use DLinks or Cisco/Linksys, but I know a Linux firewall would be
> better. (perhaps for cheaper in this case)
>
> Any ideas/urls for tiny form factors?
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 15:24:25 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:24:25 -0700
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907131754010.19007-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca>
	 <20090713204301.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907131754010.19007@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907140824w48c140c5r60b3048bda61ef96@mail.gmail.com>

IDE->CF adaptors work nicely too. I've seen firewall-oriented distros
that fit on a 32MB CF card, and I use a 4GB for fanless desktop (some
mini-ITX boards have an integrated cardreader that's bootable too).

The adaptors are on ebay for peanuts, but one has to beware the
female/male pinnings as some have to plug into the motherboard, while
others run on a standard IDE cable (sometimes you may need a
3.5"->2.5" HDD adaptor too for cable size).

With USB, boards that have an internal "extension" adaptor can be
nicely jury-rigged to have the USB stick inside, rather than sticking
out where it can be broken by accident. I've seen thin-client boxes
that have a USB cage for bootable sticks or wifi cards that's internal
in an easily-accessible location.

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Robert
Brockway<robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>
>> Tiny tends to make it expensive. ?The cheapest way to build a firewall
>> is to go buy a used PC (like a P3/P4 level machine) for $100 or so,
>> or find one given away fo free. ?Still much more capable and powerful
>> than any linksys box.
>
> I use this approach all the time. ?If the box can boot USB then you can do
> without a HDD. ?This cuts down the noise, power consumption and reduces the
> liklihood of a h/w failure.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rob
>
> --
> I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
> Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 16:43:47 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:43:47 -0400
Subject: best kitten entertainment program for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4A5C8418.5030701-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247533822.2524.4.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com>
	 <4A5C8418.5030701@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907140943v2b881822g39f319bbe422fa94@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Mike Kallies<mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Julian C. Dunn wrote:
>> I have an amusing request for TLUGgers. My new kitten regards the mouse
>> cursor (har-de-har-har) on my Linux box as something worth chasing.
>> Although this is irritating while attempting to get some work done, I
>> find it extremely entertaining when not.
> ...
>
>
> Try this, there are lots of weird extensions, like decimal sleeps,
> printf and tput, 80x25 terminal, but it works in my boring Ubuntu
> install and it's easy enough that your kitten should be able to fix it :-)
>
> #!/bin/bash
>
> x=20
> y=20
> xdir=1
> ydir=1
> width=77
> height=23
>
> clear
>
> while [ 1 ]
> do
> ? ? ? ?if [ $x -gt $height ]; then xdir=-1; fi
> ? ? ? ?if [ $y -gt $width ]; then ydir=-1; fi
> ? ? ? ?if [ $x -lt 1 ]; then xdir=1; fi
> ? ? ? ?if [ $y -lt 1 ]; then ydir=1; fi
>
> ? ? ? ?tput cup $x $y
> ? ? ? ?printf "#"
>
> ? ? ? ?sleep .05
>
> ? ? ? ?tput cup $x $y
> ? ? ? ?printf " "
>
> ? ? ? ?x=$(( x + xdir ))
> ? ? ? ?y=$(( y + ydir ))
>
>
> done
>

This board is amazing, we even look out for kittens =)
-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From marta-WMDKtnXVRv5BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 18:01:57 2009
From: marta-WMDKtnXVRv5BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Marta Lewandowski)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:01:57 -0400
Subject: Toronto Plone Trainings in August
Message-ID: <94ea49120907141101g128211a0u3a56987f8bd2bd42@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everybody,
We thought some of you may be interested to hear about two Plone training
courses being run in August.

Plone is an Open Source Content Management System (CMS) written in Python and
running on top of the Zope application server.

Offered is a Plone Content Management and a Plone Customization Training.
There is a special offer for GTALUG members, email me for more info.

For more information on the training visit
http://www.scryent.com/services/plone-training

Thanks for your time,
Marta

-- 
Marta Lewandowski, MISt
Information Specialist
Scryent
Clearly Open Source
Plone, Zope, Python, Linux & more

+1 416 433-4915
www.scryent.com
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From jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 15:29:32 2009
From: jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org (John Sellens)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:29:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
Message-ID: <200907141529.n6EFTWok074494@gc0.generalconcepts.com>

The canonical tiny firewall box is a Soekris box: www.soekris.com
No disk, compact flash, no fan, just sits there and runs.

I know this is a linux list, but you should have a look at
m0n0wall http://m0n0.ch/wall/ and pfsense http://www.pfsense.com/
which are both FreeBSD based, but are very nice embedded firewalls.

Hope that helps!

John
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 20:10:28 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:10:28 -0700
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <200907141529.n6EFTWok074494-KXptd8nw1xHC8fiuoqhjLId3RwegZlz3@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907141529.n6EFTWok074494@gc0.generalconcepts.com>
Message-ID: <8FC1C2FD-24F0-4800-B324-9C7E3DB059FB@gmail.com>

Having dealt with both Linux (iptables/ipchains) and BSD (ipnat/ 
ipfilter/ipfw) I would have to say that there's little to be feared by  
BSD firewall rules. They're actually quite easy to figure out if you  
have 'nix firewall experience, and comparably nice to maintain.

(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 14-Jul-09, at 8:29 AM, John Sellens <jsellens-Iv5KO+h6AVB+Y12zHexnB0EOCMrvLtNR at public.gmane.org>  
wrote:

> The canonical tiny firewall box is a Soekris box: www.soekris.com
> No disk, compact flash, no fan, just sits there and runs.
>
> I know this is a linux list, but you should have a look at
> m0n0wall http://m0n0.ch/wall/ and pfsense http://www.pfsense.com/
> which are both FreeBSD based, but are very nice embedded firewalls.
>
> Hope that helps!
>
> John
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 20:27:08 2009
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:27:08 -0400
Subject: Sending information to a cell phone programmatically
Message-ID: <20090714202708.GA31546@yam.witteman.ca>

I would like to get my computer to send me occasional updates to my cell
phone.  I don't really care how, but it does not have a data service -
no email or web service enabled.

Ideally, I would like to have my computer send me a text message.  Does
anyone have any experience with such thing?  Thanks.
-- 

yours,

William

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From mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 20:37:12 2009
From: mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Matthew Godycki)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:37:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sending information to a cell phone programmatically
In-Reply-To: <20090714202708.GA31546-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090714202708.GA31546@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <18192.30536.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


> I would like to get my computer to send me occasional updates to my cell

> phone.  I don't really care how, but it does not have a data service -
> no email or web service enabled.
>
> Ideally, I would like to have my computer send me a text message.  Does
> anyone have any experience with such thing?  Thanks.

Most cell carriers have a special e-mail address you can use to "email"
your cell phone.  For example, Rogers subscribers use the following:
phonenumber-N2cUGYwyuVJYzD5mSbZInQ at public.gmane.org

where phonenumber is... your cell phone number.

That may be an easy way of doing utilizing straight forward interfaces.

Cheers,
-M

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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 20:43:17 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:43:17 -0400
Subject: Sending information to a cell phone programmatically
In-Reply-To: <20090714202708.GA31546-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090714202708.GA31546@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907141343h212e7ce1j6bce0a2bb8fedde5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 4:27 PM, William O'Higgins
Witteman<william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I would like to get my computer to send me occasional updates to my cell
> phone. ?I don't really care how, but it does not have a data service -
> no email or web service enabled.
>
> Ideally, I would like to have my computer send me a text message. ?Does
> anyone have any experience with such thing? ?Thanks.

See the Email-to-SMS gateway list
http://www.mutube.com/projects/open-email-to-sms/gateway-list/

The email address to use depends on your cellular provider...

Note that the usage is Rather Clumsy, in Rogers' implementation.  You
have to reply to their server in order to accept each message.  Down
this road, surcharges for sending more than your "free" quota of
messages lie...
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Milton Berle  - "If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door." -
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/milton_berle.html
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From jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 22:15:41 2009
From: jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 18:15:41 -0400
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <8FC1C2FD-24F0-4800-B324-9C7E3DB059FB-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907141529.n6EFTWok074494@gc0.generalconcepts.com> <8FC1C2FD-24F0-4800-B324-9C7E3DB059FB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP19B0B747CD1F2F23C2D5F2DA230@phx.gbl>

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 01:10:28PM -0700, Aviss,Tyler wrote:
> Having dealt with both Linux (iptables/ipchains) and BSD (ipnat/ 
> ipfilter/ipfw) I would have to say that there's little to be feared by  
> BSD firewall rules. They're actually quite easy to figure out if you  
> have 'nix firewall experience, and comparably nice to maintain.

Don't forget packetfilter (pf) on BSD (at least OpenBSD and FreeBSD).  I 
personally found it a lot better than the others you mentioned.  (Then 
my FreeBSD machine died. *Sniff*)

JV
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From lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 14 23:33:17 2009
From: lists-JN5fZfbfKAtWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Julian C. Dunn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:33:17 -0400
Subject: best kitten entertainment program for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907140941090.19007-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <1247533822.2524.4.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907140941090.19007@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP194178DF185F4C46AA48D1A3230@phx.gbl>

Robert Brockway wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Julian C. Dunn wrote:
>
>> I wonder if there is a program that would randomly move the mouse cursor
>> around so the cat can be entertained when I am not at the computer?
> Hi Julian.  Aren't you concerned about kitten size scratch marks on 
> the LCD when you return? :)
I am still using an ancient CRT. But my partner (who has the LCD) did 
point out that training the kitten in this way may be sub-optimal for 
her computer ;-)
>> For those who are about to suggest it, yes, I did try oneko (har har
>> again) but Neko stops moving when the mouse cursor stops moving. I also
> Yes Neko goes for a nap if you stop moving the mouse :)
>
> Also check out the oneko man page.  I love it :)
Yes, I did look at the man page to see if there were other options for 
automating it but no luck. Some of the other variations are amusing though.

Thank you for all the suggestions especially Mike for the shell script!

- Julian
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 15 01:47:23 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:47:23 -0400
Subject: Sending information to a cell phone programmatically
In-Reply-To: <20090714202708.GA31546-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090714202708.GA31546@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <4A5D352B.6020305@rogers.com>

William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> I would like to get my computer to send me occasional updates to my cell
> phone.  I don't really care how, but it does not have a data service -
> no email or web service enabled.
>
> Ideally, I would like to have my computer send me a text message.  Does
> anyone have any experience with such thing?  Thanks.
>   
Assuming the phone can receive SMS messages, simply send an email to the
phone.  You'll have to get the details from your provider, but with
Rogers it's in the form of <phone number>@pcs.rogers.com.

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From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 15 14:16:08 2009
From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:16:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Applications Dock functionality (launcher, lister, switcher combined),
 no eye candy required?
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907150657340.15500@imac2006.local>

Hi!

I am looking for an application which can function as 
applications dock (combined functions of applications launcher, 
lister and switcher), similar to OS X dock, but I don't need the 
eye candy (transparency, 3d effect, icon enlargement, bouncing 
icon, etc.) (in fact, when I use OS X, I set its dock visual 
effect to minimum). I actually prefer low weight low resources 
application, something like WindowMaker's application dock (not 
its widget dock) but works well with other desktop environment 
(i.e. can do drag & drop). It should also available in various 
distro, but specifically at present I need it to run in Fedora.

I tried Docker, but when I run it nothing show up in the screen. 
I tried SimDock, but it has several issues (does not seems to 
show an application is running, has errors, does not work well 
with GNOME). I tried GNOME Do (to get its Docky) but it has 
error (Failed to contact configuration server) that I still 
debug. Avant WM and CairoDock seems to be too heavy weight (need 
composited screen).

Any other suggestion? Thanks!

-- 
    ____  ____  ____  ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo
   /___  /___/ /___/ /___      http://www.arifsaha.com/
  ____/ /     /   / ____/
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 15 15:32:01 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:32:01 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
Message-ID: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com>

Len Katz, the CRTC's vice-chair of telecommunications, asked about Bell's throttled speeds.

Daniels said peer-to-peer file transfers are reduced to a speed of 256 kilobits per second between 6 p.m. and 1 a.m. in Ontario and Quebec. That is a 98.5 per cent reduction from the maximum advertised speed of 16 megabits per second that Bell uses to sell its Internet Max 16 service.

Between 4:30 p.m. and 6 p.m. and between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m., the company slows downloads to 512 kilobits per second. Daniels added that the numbers would be posted on its website soon.


http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/14/crtc-bell-internet-traffic-management-providers-custom
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 15 16:28:26 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:28:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: new kernel newbie column is up
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907151227381.28890@localhost>


  http://cli.gs/SnmXg6

yes, i'm sure it's painfully trivial for the majority on these lists,
but it'll get more challenging as the weeks go by.  really.

rday
--


========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
"Kernel Newbie Corner" column @ linux.com:          http://cli.gs/WG6WYX
========================================================================
--
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 15 18:34:28 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:34:28 -0400
Subject: new kernel newbie column is up
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907151227381.28890@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907151227381.28890@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907151134h55af99absb09408d1b101d5c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Robert P. J. Day<rpjday at crashcourse.ca> wrote:
>
> ?http://cli.gs/SnmXg6
>
> yes, i'm sure it's painfully trivial for the majority on these lists,
> but it'll get more challenging as the weeks go by. ?really.
>
> rday
> --
>
>
> ========================================================================
> Robert P. J. Day ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
> ? ? ? ?Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.
>
> Web page: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?http://crashcourse.ca
> Twitter: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://twitter.com/rpjday
> "Kernel Newbie Corner" column @ linux.com: ? ? ? ? ?http://cli.gs/WG6WYX
> ========================================================================

It's just right for me, I am enjoying the well written articles!

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav

From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 15 19:45:04 2009
From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:45:04 -0400
Subject: About Tuesday's Talk
Message-ID: <4A5E31C0.4030102@utoronto.ca>

There is a way to get Windows clients to authenticate against an
openldap-kerberos setup that was described in Tuesday's talk. It's call
pGina and here is a link:

http://www.pgina.org/?page_id=3

Ansar Mohammed first pointed to this in a presentation at NewTLUG.

Ivan.
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 15 20:00:52 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:00:52 -0400
Subject: Applications Dock functionality (launcher, lister, 
	switcher combined), no eye candy required?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907150657340.15500-aZibgg63UJu44ywRPIzf9A@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907150657340.15500@imac2006.local>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907151300s303e5434j60ee31045f67f801@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/15 S P Arif Sahari Wibowo <arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
> I am looking for an application which can function as applications dock
> (combined functions of applications launcher, lister and switcher), similar
> to OS X dock, but I don't need the eye candy (transparency, 3d effect, icon
> enlargement, bouncing icon, etc.) (in fact, when I use OS X, I set its dock
> visual effect to minimum). I actually prefer low weight low resources
> application, something like WindowMaker's application dock (not its widget
> dock) but works well with other desktop environment (i.e. can do drag &
> drop). It should also available in various distro, but specifically at
> present I need it to run in Fedora.
>
> I tried Docker, but when I run it nothing show up in the screen. I tried
> SimDock, but it has several issues (does not seems to show an application is
> running, has errors, does not work well with GNOME). I tried GNOME Do (to
> get its Docky) but it has error (Failed to contact configuration server)
> that I still debug. Avant WM and CairoDock seems to be too heavy weight
> (need composited screen).

I currently use "dmenu" (which is absolutely not a dock, but an
excellent text-based menu) and, in a more dock-like category, ROX's
panel.  ROX requires some other packages, I don't know if you'll
consider it "heavy."  (http://roscidus.com/desktop/ ... it works fine
with other window managers than their preferred one.)

You can also take a look at:

http://www.gilesorr.com/wm/helpers.html

I maintain this (occasionally) to go with my Window Managers list, and
several of the apps on that list are various types of panels.  You're
right: many of them don't work well.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From alorane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 15 21:14:33 2009
From: alorane-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (alorane)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:14:33 -0400
Subject: duplex printing with HP 2050
Message-ID: <6a394d3b0907151414n127cc7b4y3d67b06f8b515670@mail.gmail.com>

Does anybody know how to get the laserjet P2050 to print duplex?

Thx Alorane
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From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 00:10:37 2009
From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:10:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: best kitten entertainment program for Linux?
References: <1247533822.2524.4.camel@jupiter.acf.aquezada.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20090716T000744-461@post.gmane.org>

Julian C. Dunn <lists at ...> writes:
> I have an amusing request for TLUGgers. My new kitten regards the mouse
> cursor (har-de-har-har) on my Linux box as something worth chasing.

I think that you got a nerd kitten by mistake. Try to replace it with a non-nerd
kitten. I am sure people will pay a lot of money to be allowed to adopt a nerd
kitten.

Other thank that, there are various ways to move the cursor, one is
xautomation(1), another implies feeding events to the x server (usually
presented as an X programming example). The shell script will work but it will
not help a lot under X I think. Writing a quick program in wish (tcl/tk) that
moves the cursor around is trivial and a good learning experience.

Peter

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How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 01:49:16 2009
From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:49:16 -0400
Subject: Dell sells EBook reader based on Linux
In-Reply-To: <20090605200815.GB22848-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0906051500560.5674@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	 <20090605200815.GB22848@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <32f6a8880907151849s76b30dccm72f4682d1593179d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Lennart,

I bought one for my wife, and I was wondering if you need windows for
this Digital book or if you can use linux to get the books.

Do you know?

>> Things that I noted:
>>
>> - OS is Linux (but does not imply that it is hackable)
>>
>> - only 640 x 480 display (less than my Nokia n800)
>>
>> - Arm9 processor at 200MHz; 1GB flash; 32MB RAM
>>
>> - battery supports "up to 22 hours" of continuous use.
>>
>> - 227g
>>
>> - Formats Supported : HTML, EBA, EBAML (EBA2.0), TXT, PDF, BMP, JPG, GIF,
>> ? Animated GIF, MP3
>>
>> Note: Expected Release Date: July 24th 2009
>
> I believe the display on the sony 505 is 800x600 with 8 level grey scale.
> It too runs linux, although I don't know if anyone has bothered to
> hack it. ?Battery life is supposed to be 7500 page turns.
>
> If you play mp3's on it, well then you are just nuts. ?Get a tiny mp3
> player instead.
>
> The list of supported file formats looks similar, although I don't see
> LIT or EPUB listed above. ?The sony is about 2/3 as thick too which is
> rather nice.
>
> So, my wife has the sony prs-505, as do a few other people I know.
> It's very sloid, nicely designed, works well and costs $300.
>
> This one honestly looks clumsy and cheap in comparison for slightly
> smaller screen (but a bit more flash space).
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 



Dave Germiquet
--
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 04:49:12 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:49:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Writing clever code
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907160045220.19007@castor.opentrend.net>

During a discussion after the meeting last night we discussed 'clever 
code'.  I paraphrased a quote from Kernighan and was requested for the 
original.

Here it is:

?Debugging is twice as hard as writing code in the first place. Therefore, 
if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not 
smart enough to debug it. - Brian Kernighan?

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html

From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 12:55:39 2009
From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 05:55:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <90512.97148.qm@web59505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I could not find the link you supplied but I did do a search on there site and Bell has been doing this for years. 
http://www.cbc.ca/search/cbc?q=bell+internet+traffic+512+kilobits&btnG.x=0&btnG.y=0&btnG=Search&entqr=1&entsp=0&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=utf8&btnG.y=0&client=CBC&safe=high&btnG.x=0&useragent=Mozilla%2F5.0+%28X11%3B+U%3B+Linux+i686+%28x86_64%29%3B+en-US%3B+rv%3A1.9.1%29+Gecko%2F20090624+Firefox%2F3.5&oe=utf8&site=CBC
So the rumors are true! LOL
Well, I am near a Bell switching station. So, if and when I switch to Telus (or other retailer that uses Bell lines), I know it will not be to bad for me! But I will wait until the CRTC stops the throttling issues.

Kind regards!
Abby





________________________________
From: meng <meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:32:01 AM
Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC

Len Katz, the CRTC's vice-chair of telecommunications, asked about Bell's throttled speeds.

Daniels said peer-to-peer file transfers are reduced to a speed of 256 kilobits per second between 6 p.m. and 1 a.m. in Ontario and Quebec. That is a 98.5 per cent reduction from the maximum advertised speed of 16 megabits per second that Bell uses to sell its Internet Max 16 service.

Between 4:30 p.m. and 6 p.m. and between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m., the company slows downloads to 512 kilobits per second. Daniels added that the numbers would be posted on its website soon.


http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/14/crtc-bell-internet-traffic-management-providers-custom
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists



      __________________________________________________________________
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
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From liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 13:20:00 2009
From: liberosec-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Fernando Duran)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 06:20:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
Message-ID: <278291.4255.qm@web65409.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Interesting article explaining different positions: http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/15/f-internet-traffic-management-crtc-hearings.html


---------------------

Fernando Duran
http://www.fduran.com

--- On Thu, 7/16/09, Abidel Bassie-Cripps <mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Abidel Bassie-Cripps <mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Received: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 8:55 AM

I could not find the link you supplied but I did do a search on there site and Bell has been doing this for years. 
http://www.cbc.ca/search/cbc?q=bell+internet+traffic+512+kilobits&btnG.x=0&btnG.y=0&btnG=Search&entqr=1&entsp=0&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=utf8&btnG.y=0&client=CBC&safe=high&btnG.x=0&useragent=Mozilla%2F5.0+%28X11%3B+U%3B+Linux+i686+%28x86_64%29%3B+en-US%3B+rv%3A1.9.1%29+Gecko%2F20090624+Firefox%2F3.5&oe=utf8&site=CBC
So the rumors are true! LOL
Well, I am near a Bell switching station. So, if and when I switch to Telus (or other retailer that uses Bell lines), I
 know it will not be to bad for me! But I will wait until the CRTC stops the throttling issues.

Kind regards!
Abby


From: meng <meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:32:01 AM
Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC

Len Katz, the CRTC's vice-chair of telecommunications, asked about Bell's throttled speeds.

Daniels said peer-to-peer file transfers are reduced to a speed of 256 kilobits per second between 6 p.m. and 1 a.m. in Ontario and Quebec. That is a 98.5
 per cent reduction from the maximum advertised speed of 16 megabits per second that Bell uses to sell its Internet Max 16 service.

Between 4:30 p.m. and 6 p.m. and between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m., the company slows downloads to 512 kilobits per second. Daniels added that the numbers would be posted on its website soon.


http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/14/crtc-bell-internet-traffic-management-providers-custom
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.? ? ? Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists


       

  

    

    

    

    

 

      Yahoo! 
        Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on 
        the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!  
        


      __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 13:53:29 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:53:29 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <90512.97148.qm-Z2lzvIXshmf5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com> 
	<90512.97148.qm@web59505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907160653y604f6f5ava50dae9eadbcf85f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 08:55, Abidel Bassie-Cripps<mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I could not find the link you supplied but I did do a search on there site
> and Bell has been doing this for years.
> http://www.cbc.ca/search/cbc?q=bell+internet+traffic+512+kilobits&btnG.x=0&btnG.y=0&btnG=Search&entqr=1&entsp=0&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=utf8&btnG.y=0&client=CBC&safe=high&btnG.x=0&useragent=Mozilla%2F5.0+%28X11%3B+U%3B+Linux+i686+%28x86_64%29%3B+en-US%3B+rv%3A1.9.1%29+Gecko%2F20090624+Firefox%2F3.5&oe=utf8&site=CBC
> So the rumors are true! LOL
> Well, I am near a Bell switching station. So, if and when I switch to Telus
> (or other retailer that uses Bell lines), I know it will not be to bad for
> me! But I will wait until the CRTC stops the throttling issues.
>
> Kind regards!
> Abby

If they stop the throttling issue, they've had many chances and so far
have done **** all about it, I think the current hearings are just to
make it look like they care and are doing something about it, but
nothing's going to change.  The CRTC needs to get dissolved completely
and then made new.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 14:30:38 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 10:30:38 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
Message-ID: <9e389ff52f98f561a194466e4b9d44d1@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: Abidel Bassie-Cripps mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:55:39 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC

> I could not find the link you supplied but I did do a search on there site and Bell has been doing this for years. 
> http://www.cbc.ca/search/cbc?q=bell+internet+traffic+512+kilobits&btnG.x=0&btnG.y=0&btnG=Search&entqr=1&entsp=0&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=utf8&btnG.y=0&client=CBC&safe=high&btnG.x=0&useragent=Mozilla%2F5.0+%28X11%3B+U%3B+Linux+i686+%28x86_64%29%3B+en-US%3B+rv%3A1.9.1%29+Gecko%2F20090624+Firefox%2F3.5&oe=utf8&site=CBC
> So the rumors are true! LOL
> Well, I am near a Bell switching station. So, if and when I switch to Telus (or other retailer that uses Bell lines), I know it will not be to bad for me! But I will wait until the CRTC stops the throttling issues.
> 
> Kind regards!
> Abby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: meng <meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org>
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:32:01 AM
> Subject: [TLUG]: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
> 
> Len Katz, the CRTC's vice-chair of telecommunications, asked about Bell's throttled speeds.
> 
> Daniels said peer-to-peer file transfers are reduced to a speed of 256 kilobits per second between 6 p.m. and 1 a.m. in Ontario and Quebec. That is a 98.5 per cent reduction from the maximum advertised speed of 16 megabits per second that Bell uses to sell its Internet Max 16 service.
> 
> Between 4:30 p.m. and 6 p.m. and between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m., the company slows downloads to 512 kilobits per second. Daniels added that the numbers would be posted on its website soon.
> 
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/14/crtc-bell-internet-traffic-management-providers-custom

It's now here:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/07/14/crtc-bell-internet-traffic-management-providers-customers.html

_____________________________________________________________
> Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
> 
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 15:06:33 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 11:06:33 -0400
Subject: Dell sells EBook reader based on Linux
In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880907151849s76b30dccm72f4682d1593179d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0906051500560.5674@redclaw.mimosa.com> <20090605200815.GB22848@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <32f6a8880907151849s76b30dccm72f4682d1593179d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090716150633.GX15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 09:49:16PM -0400, Dave Germiquet wrote:
> I bought one for my wife, and I was wondering if you need windows for
> this Digital book or if you can use linux to get the books.
> 
> Do you know?

For the sony one, the interface for transfering books to the reader is
simply usb storage and works fine with linux.

To buy books from sony's ebook store requires the use of sony's windows
only software (no linux or mac support).

Lots of free books can be found from other stores of course, and of
course some people use bittorrent and there are always plain text and
pdf files too.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 20:06:34 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:06:34 -0400
Subject: About Tuesday's Talk
In-Reply-To: <4A5E31C0.4030102-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5E31C0.4030102@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907161306n3fdbcceex7c1ab613ee03be34@mail.gmail.com>

Ivan,

2009/7/15 Ivan Avery Frey <ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org>

> There is a way to get Windows clients to authenticate against an
> openldap-kerberos setup that was described in Tuesday's talk. It's call
> pGina and here is a link:
>

 This will work, but it will still not be seamless. Applications that rely
on window version of kerberos may not work, think outlook or exchange. Not
used it yet, but I assume it does something very similar like installing the
MIT version of kerberos on Windows.

>
> http://www.pgina.org/?page_id=3
>
> Ansar Mohammed first pointed to this in a presentation at NewTLUG.
>
> Ivan.
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>


Regards,

William
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 21:20:24 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:20:24 -0400
Subject: OT - bb curve 8330 a 3g phone?
Message-ID: <b8f780870907161420m41352bfdwebe031fed629490e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi pals,

I have noticed a bell advertisement that has left me a little lost.
Basically, they were comparing two offers and from the listed features, I
was left with the impression that Bell do have a 3G network. This confusion
could be a result of two things, either I have no idea of what 3G is or Bell
may be misleading consumers here.

I have googled on the specification of above phone and it does seem they
market it as 3G because of EV-DO. That apparently is similar to HSDPA, but
its through put is so low I would not have considered it 3G before seeing
this advertisement. In fact, until today, I was under the assumption 3G is
exclusive to GSM. So the question is, what qualify a service to be 3G?
Frequency used? Bandwidth?

Last, I read a while ago that the none GSM carriers were evaluating on
whether to change their technology from CDMA to GSM. This was apparently
driven by CDMA lack of support from phone manufactures. Apparently, all the
fun phones are all GSM or initially GSM, tipping the market in favour of
Rogers. What was the decision of their management?

Regards,

William
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 21:57:04 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:57:04 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com>

Something that caused me to shake my head there are now versions of
Ubuntu aimed at different religious faiths:

Ubuntu for Buddhist:
- http://buddhabuntu.8m.net/

Ubuntu for Christians :
- http://ubuntuce.com/

Ubuntu for Judaism:
- https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-je

Ubuntu for Muslims:
- http://www.sabily.org/website/

Ubuntu for Satanist:
- http://ubuntusatanic.org/

And for all I know there may be versions of Ubuntu for some other
faiths. I tossed the names of a few other religions plus Ubuntu at
Google and didn't find any others, but that may not mean much...

Qustion is, why? Do we not have enough things to split up the OS world
without religion?

Colin...
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 22:15:57 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:15:57 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907161515r5452d1b5yf30454fd81a844e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Qustion is, why? Do we not have enough things to split up the OS world
> without religion?

???

Aren't KDE and GNOME different faiths?

Perl versus Python versus Tcl?

qmail versus Postfix?

ESR versus RMS?

We've got *plenty* of splits just as arbitrary and "bound to faith" in
the computing world as there are amongst those of religious faith...
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/ifwhy.html
Gilda Radner  - "Adopted kids are such a pain - you have to teach them
how to look like you." -
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/gilda_radner.html
--
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From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 22:47:50 2009
From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:47:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 2.8Ghz Dells, 17" monitors @ Computer Liquidation
Message-ID: <48400.74.14.234.192.1247784470.squirrel@acheron.ss.org>

I know that a lot of us can be on a Budget, that's why I thought I pass
this on.

Computer Liquidation @ 176 Sheappard Ave. has found it's self with a lot
of off lease computers that need homes for any Reasonable offer.

Mostly Dell GX270s 2.8 GHz P4, lacking Harddrives, but also many IBM boxes.

There are also 17" LCDs with VGA and DVI input, built in USB hub but
lacking stands, ideal for wall mount or kiosk projects. Those are going at
$50 a piece.


--
Scott Sullivan


--
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From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 22:53:18 2009
From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:53:18 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200907161853.18583.amarjan@pobox.com>

On July 16, 2009 05:57:04 pm Colin McGregor wrote:
> Something that caused me to shake my head there are now versions of
> Ubuntu aimed at different religious faiths:
>
> Ubuntu for Buddhist:
> - http://buddhabuntu.8m.net/
>
> Ubuntu for Christians :
> - http://ubuntuce.com/
>
> Ubuntu for Judaism:
> - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-je
>
> Ubuntu for Muslims:
> - http://www.sabily.org/website/
>
> Ubuntu for Satanist:
> - http://ubuntusatanic.org/
>
> And for all I know there may be versions of Ubuntu for some other
> faiths. I tossed the names of a few other religions plus Ubuntu at
> Google and didn't find any others, but that may not mean much...
>
> Qustion is, why? Do we not have enough things to split up the OS world
> without religion?

These seem essentially like package sets slipstreamed into the Ubuntu install 
CD. It doesn't seem that any of them are creating forks of Ubuntu. So are they 
really splitting up anything?

It's something that I'd expect to be an add-on repository to a regular Ubuntu 
install.

A few things come to mind:

1. Maybe Ubuntu doesn't have an equivalent for suse's "add repo X and install 
package(set) Y" GUI installation functionality. I wouldn't know, I always use 
apt-* directly.

(UbuntuCE has a really painful explanation of how to add their packages to a 
regular Ubuntu.)

2. Maybe Ubuntu makes it really really easy to create your own derivative and 
these are geeks doing it more for the experience of doing it than for any real 
need

3. There can be value to having custom packages slipstreamed into an installer 
(e.g. target computer has slow or no Internet connection), so maybe these 
groups are providing a valuable service to their coreligionists.
--
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From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 22:54:25 2009
From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:54:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <d6d6637f0907161515r5452d1b5yf30454fd81a844e3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com>
    <d6d6637f0907161515r5452d1b5yf30454fd81a844e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35316.74.14.234.192.1247784866.squirrel@acheron.ss.org>

This in my view is actually a good thing, it increases the linux/ubuntu
market share and these project are still contributing to a common core. It
may be only time that these faiths my agree on anything!

> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>> Qustion is, why? Do we not have enough things to split up the OS world
>> without religion?
>
> ???
>
> Aren't KDE and GNOME different faiths?
>
> Perl versus Python versus Tcl?
>
> qmail versus Postfix?
>
> ESR versus RMS?
>
> We've got *plenty* of splits just as arbitrary and "bound to faith" in
> the computing world as there are amongst those of religious faith...
> --
> http://linuxfinances.info/info/ifwhy.html
> Gilda Radner  - "Adopted kids are such a pain - you have to teach them
> how to look like you." -
> http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/gilda_radner.html
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 22:54:25 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:54:25 -0400
Subject: 2.8Ghz Dells, 17" monitors @ Computer Liquidation
In-Reply-To: <48400.74.14.234.192.1247784470.squirrel-mb4phVZFrfSXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org>
References: <48400.74.14.234.192.1247784470.squirrel@acheron.ss.org>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907161554k61a74454g6bcaa762a2c3bc7b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 18:47, <scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I know that a lot of us can be on a Budget, that's why I thought I pass
> this on.
>
> Computer Liquidation @ 176 Sheappard Ave. has found it's self with a lot
> of off lease computers that need homes for any Reasonable offer.
>
> Mostly Dell GX270s 2.8 GHz P4, lacking Harddrives, but also many IBM boxes.
>
> There are also 17" LCDs with VGA and DVI input, built in USB hub but
> lacking stands, ideal for wall mount or kiosk projects. Those are going at
> $50 a piece.
>
>
> --
> Scott Sullivan


Do they have a web site?

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 16 23:34:49 2009
From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:34:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7162.99.253.254.243.1247787289.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>


<snip>

> And for all I know there may be versions of Ubuntu for some other
> faiths. I tossed the names of a few other religions plus Ubuntu at
> Google and didn't find any others, but that may not mean much...
>
> Qustion is, why? Do we not have enough things to split up the OS world
> without religion?
>
> Colin...

Oh good, new opportunities for religious wars about operating systems!!

I can hardly wait.

-- 
Peter Hiscocks
Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto
http://www.syscompdesign.com
USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator
647-839-0325

--
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From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 00:02:57 2009
From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:02:57 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090716200257.68da6f0f.hgibson@eol.ca>

On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:57:04 -0400
Colin McGregor <colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Something that caused me to shake my head there are now versions of
> Ubuntu aimed at different religious faiths:
> 
> Ubuntu for Buddhist:
> - http://buddhabuntu.8m.net/
> 
> Ubuntu for Christians :
> - http://ubuntuce.com/
> 
> Ubuntu for Judaism:
> - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-je
> 
> Ubuntu for Muslims:
> - http://www.sabily.org/website/
> 
> Ubuntu for Satanist:
> - http://ubuntusatanic.org/
> 
> And for all I know there may be versions of Ubuntu for some other
> faiths. I tossed the names of a few other religions plus Ubuntu at
> Google and didn't find any others, but that may not mean much...
> 
> Qustion is, why? Do we not have enough things to split up the OS world
> without religion?

   Where is the Pastafarian version dammit!

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org
howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org 
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
--
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From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 00:34:53 2009
From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:34:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: MySQL
Message-ID: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>

Hello everyone,

When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000 or
even higher?

Thanks

Jason

--
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From scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 00:56:51 2009
From: scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Scott Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:56:51 -0400
Subject: 2.8Ghz Dells, 17" monitors @ Computer Liquidation
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907161554k61a74454g6bcaa762a2c3bc7b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <48400.74.14.234.192.1247784470.squirrel@acheron.ss.org> <7c50d3570907161554k61a74454g6bcaa762a2c3bc7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A5FCC53.60204@ss.org>

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 18:47, <scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>   
>> I know that a lot of us can be on a Budget, that's why I thought I pass
>> this on.
>>
>> Computer Liquidation @ 176 Sheappard Ave. has found it's self with a lot
>> of off lease computers that need homes for any Reasonable offer.
>>
>> Mostly Dell GX270s 2.8 GHz P4, lacking Harddrives, but also many IBM boxes.
>>
>> There are also 17" LCDs with VGA and DVI input, built in USB hub but
>> lacking stands, ideal for wall mount or kiosk projects. Those are going at
>> $50 a piece.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Scott Sullivan
>>     
>
>
> Do they have a web site?
>
>   
They Don't have a website that I know of, but their hours of operation 
are 10:30am - 7:00pm Mon-Fri.
Phone number is 416.322.6512

-- 
Scott Sullivan
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 01:00:29 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:00:29 -0500
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907161800n7848d539y5de9da23025116c@mail.gmail.com>

Jason

2009/7/16 Jason Carson <jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org>

> Hello everyone,
>
> When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
> characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000 or
> even higher?
>

Try varchar2

>
> Thanks
>
> Jason
>

William

>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 01:23:41 2009
From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:23:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907161800n7848d539y5de9da23025116c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
    <b8f780870907161800n7848d539y5de9da23025116c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0869bc53a93da8af096d9b46093aac29.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>

> Jason
>
> 2009/7/16 Jason Carson <jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org>
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
>> characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000
>> or
>> even higher?
>>
>
> Try varchar2
>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jason
>>
>
> William
>

I came across this (http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/char.html) and
if you are using MySQL 5.0.3 or newer (which I am) then the length can be
up to 65535.

Is there any reason to use varchar2 over varchar or vice versa?

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From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 01:30:16 2009
From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:30:16 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <20090716200257.68da6f0f.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com> <20090716200257.68da6f0f.hgibson@eol.ca>
Message-ID: <4A5FD428.20807@golden.net>

Howard Gibson wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:57:04 -0400
> Colin McGregor <colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>   
>> Something that caused me to shake my head there are now versions of
>> Ubuntu aimed at different religious faiths:
>>
>> Ubuntu for Buddhist:
>> - http://buddhabuntu.8m.net/
>>
>> Ubuntu for Christians :
>> - http://ubuntuce.com/
>>
>> Ubuntu for Judaism:
>> - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-je
>>
>> Ubuntu for Muslims:
>> - http://www.sabily.org/website/
>>
>> Ubuntu for Satanist:
>> - http://ubuntusatanic.org/
>>
>> And for all I know there may be versions of Ubuntu for some other
>> faiths. I tossed the names of a few other religions plus Ubuntu at
>> Google and didn't find any others, but that may not mean much...
>>
>> Qustion is, why? Do we not have enough things to split up the OS world
>> without religion?
>>     
>
>    Where is the Pastafarian version dammit!
How about the Atheist or Agnostic version?

What's next Homophobic, Republican, Left handed or Flat Earth versions?

ROFL ;-)

John
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From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 02:03:02 2009
From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:03:02 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <4A5FD428.20807-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090716200257.68da6f0f.hgibson@eol.ca>
	<4A5FD428.20807@golden.net>
Message-ID: <20090716220302.cd9531de.hgibson@eol.ca>



































On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:30:16 -0400
John Myshrall <jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Howard Gibson wrote:
> > On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:57:04 -0400
> > Colin McGregor <colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
> >   
> >> Something that caused me to shake my head there are now versions of
> >> Ubuntu aimed at different religious faiths:
> >>
> >> Ubuntu for Buddhist:
> >> - http://buddhabuntu.8m.net/
> >>
> >> Ubuntu for Christians :
> >> - http://ubuntuce.com/
> >>
> >> Ubuntu for Judaism:
> >> - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-je
> >>
> >> Ubuntu for Muslims:
> >> - http://www.sabily.org/website/
> >>
> >> Ubuntu for Satanist:
> >> - http://ubuntusatanic.org/
> >>
> >> And for all I know there may be versions of Ubuntu for some other
> >> faiths. I tossed the names of a few other religions plus Ubuntu at
> >> Google and didn't find any others, but that may not mean much...
> >>
> >> Qustion is, why? Do we not have enough things to split up the OS world
> >> without religion?
> >>     
> >
> >    Where is the Pastafarian version dammit!
> How about the Atheist or Agnostic version?
> 
> What's next Homophobic, Republican, Left handed or Flat Earth versions?
> 
> ROFL ;-)
> 
> John
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 

   I really am a left handed cross country skier, and there is a cat on my keyboard.  Where is my version?

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org
howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org 
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
--
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 02:09:08 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:09:08 -0400
Subject: OT - bb curve 8330 a 3g phone?
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907161420m41352bfdwebe031fed629490e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907161420m41352bfdwebe031fed629490e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A5FDD44.6010307@utoronto.ca>

William Muriithi wrote:
> Hi pals,
> 
> I have noticed a bell advertisement that has left me a little lost. 
> Basically, they were comparing two offers and from the listed features, 
> I was left with the impression that Bell do have a 3G network. This 
> confusion could be a result of two things, either I have no idea of what 
> 3G is or Bell may be misleading consumers here.
> 
> I have googled on the specification of above phone and it does seem they 
> market it as 3G because of EV-DO. That apparently is similar to HSDPA, 
> but its through put is so low I would not have considered it 3G before 
> seeing this advertisement. In fact, until today, I was under the 
> assumption 3G is exclusive to GSM. So the question is, what qualify a 
> service to be 3G?  Frequency used? Bandwidth?
> 
> Last, I read a while ago that the none GSM carriers were evaluating on 
> whether to change their technology from CDMA to GSM. This was apparently 
> driven by CDMA lack of support from phone manufactures. Apparently, all 
> the fun phones are all GSM or initially GSM, tipping the market in 
> favour of Rogers. What was the decision of their management?

Here's a good explanation:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/93CA0BF6-6296-4DCF-88EA-9E27E617E96A.html

Also, cmda might be a better technology in terms of throughput for evdo, 
or efficiency of channel usage, but Nokia announced in 2006 that they 
were scaling back cdma phones to all but the North American market, and 
then only using branded handsets (e.g. not make their own cmda phones, 
only slap their logo on them). If Nokia, arguably? the world's largest 
mobile manufacturer drops a technology, that says something to me.

Jamon
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From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 02:47:53 2009
From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:47:53 -0400
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <0869bc53a93da8af096d9b46093aac29.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
	 <b8f780870907161800n7848d539y5de9da23025116c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0869bc53a93da8af096d9b46093aac29.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
Message-ID: <32f6a8880907161947o1d1db68bhc4ffdd861c42db09@mail.gmail.com>

Isn't there also a TEXT option for mysql?

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jason Carson<jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Jason
>>
>> 2009/7/16 Jason Carson <jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org>
>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
>>> characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000
>>> or
>>> even higher?
>>>
>>
>> Try varchar2
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>
>> William
>>
>
> I came across this (http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/char.html) and
> if you are using MySQL 5.0.3 or newer (which I am) then the length can be
> up to 65535.
>
> Is there any reason to use varchar2 over varchar or vice versa?
>
> --
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> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 03:49:38 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:49:38 -0400
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880907161947o1d1db68bhc4ffdd861c42db09-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
	 <b8f780870907161800n7848d539y5de9da23025116c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0869bc53a93da8af096d9b46093aac29.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
	 <32f6a8880907161947o1d1db68bhc4ffdd861c42db09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907162049s43a89820vec523cace7c1852d@mail.gmail.com>

Yes.
You can use a "TEXT" value for really long text values, such as input
from a textarea, etc

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Dave Germiquet<davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Isn't there also a TEXT option for mysql?
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jason Carson<jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> 2009/7/16 Jason Carson <jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org>
>>>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>> When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
>>>> characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000
>>>> or
>>>> even higher?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Try varchar2
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>
>> I came across this (http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/char.html) and
>> if you are using MySQL 5.0.3 or newer (which I am) then the length can be
>> up to 65535.
>>
>> Is there any reason to use varchar2 over varchar or vice versa?
>>
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Dave Germiquet
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
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Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 04:14:46 2009
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:14:46 -0400
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
Message-ID: <20090717041446.GA5457@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 08:34:53PM -0400, Jason Carson wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
> characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000 or
> even higher?

PostgreSQL.

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 07:56:48 2009
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:56:48 -0400
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
Message-ID: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net>

Hi all,

If my default gateway is on eth0, how do I route all email through
another interface, say eth1 or ppp0 ?

Any pointer or keywords would be appreciated.

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 12:20:42 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:20:42 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A606C9A.6000908@rogers.com>

Colin McGregor wrote:
> Qustion is, why? Do we not have enough things to split up the OS world
> without religion?
>
>   
I guess it goes to the stupidity of believers.  They all need
reinforcement of the belief that their delusion is the one true
religion.  This fact is the cause of so much violence in the world.

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 12:24:46 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:24:46 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <4A5FD428.20807-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com> <20090716200257.68da6f0f.hgibson@eol.ca> <4A5FD428.20807@golden.net>
Message-ID: <4A606D8E.3030108@rogers.com>

John Myshrall wrote:
> Howard Gibson wrote:
>>
>>    Where is the Pastafarian version dammit!
> How about the Atheist or Agnostic version?
>
> What's next Homophobic, Republican, Left handed or Flat Earth versions?
>
> ROFL ;-)
>
Several years ago, 60 Minutes did a piece on "kosher" pet foods.  The
stupidity abounds...
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 12:31:08 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:31:08 -0400
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <20090717075648.GA7233-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <4A606F0C.9030904@rogers.com>

William Park wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> If my default gateway is on eth0, how do I route all email through
> another interface, say eth1 or ppp0 ?
>
> Any pointer or keywords would be appreciated.
>
>   
Routing is based on IP address, not protocol.  If the mail server is via
eth1 or ppp0, you'd configure your routing for the server's IP address. 
Also, the defautl gateway is for all addresses that are not otherwise
defined.

Perhaps if you were to better describe what you're trying to do, we
might be able to set you straight.

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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 13:08:25 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:08:25 +0400
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <4A606F0C.9030904-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net> <4A606F0C.9030904@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4A6077C9.6040201@gmail.com>

James Knott wrote:
> William Park wrote:
>   
>> Hi all,
>>
>> If my default gateway is on eth0, how do I route all email through
>> another interface, say eth1 or ppp0 ?
>>
>> Any pointer or keywords would be appreciated.
>>
>>   
>>     
> Routing is based on IP address, not protocol.  If the mail server is via
> eth1 or ppp0, you'd configure your routing for the server's IP address. 
> Also, the defautl gateway is for all addresses that are not otherwise
> defined.
>
> Perhaps if you were to better describe what you're trying to do, we
> might be able to set you straight.
>   

Aha...

Where are you routing? The word "routing" is not precise in this context.

If the second interface is supposed to go to the internet than have a 
way to check if you can access internet through that second interface.

bla bla bla

Learn configuring your network, thats the point.

zb/

> --
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> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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>   

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 14:11:12 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:11:12 -0400
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <20090717075648.GA7233-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <20090717141112.GA2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 03:56:48AM -0400, William Park wrote:
> If my default gateway is on eth0, how do I route all email through
> another interface, say eth1 or ppp0 ?
> 
> Any pointer or keywords would be appreciated.

Look up using iptables to mangle the smtp packets so that ip rules can
use an alternate routing table for the mangled packets.

So look up ip rule, ip route table and iptables -t mangle

Example:
# Setup routing table
/sbin/ip route add table 80 default via 10.128.0.252 dev eth0

# Add rule
/sbin/ip rule add from all fwmark 8 table 80

# Add firewall mangling rule
/sbin/iptables -t mangle -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 80 -d \! 10.0.0.0/8 -j MARK --set-mark 8

This makes all outbound port 80 traffic not going to the local 10.*
network go through 10.128.0.252 rather than the normal gateway.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 14:13:14 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:13:14 -0400
Subject: 2.8Ghz Dells, 17" monitors @ Computer Liquidation
In-Reply-To: <48400.74.14.234.192.1247784470.squirrel-mb4phVZFrfSXFJAUJl40Xg@public.gmane.org>
References: <48400.74.14.234.192.1247784470.squirrel@acheron.ss.org>
Message-ID: <20090717141314.GB2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 06:47:50PM -0400, scott-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org wrote:
> I know that a lot of us can be on a Budget, that's why I thought I pass
> this on.
> 
> Computer Liquidation @ 176 Sheappard Ave. has found it's self with a lot
> of off lease computers that need homes for any Reasonable offer.
> 
> Mostly Dell GX270s 2.8 GHz P4, lacking Harddrives, but also many IBM boxes.
> 
> There are also 17" LCDs with VGA and DVI input, built in USB hub but
> lacking stands, ideal for wall mount or kiosk projects. Those are going at
> $50 a piece.

Just remember P4s are about the most inefficient machines ever made,
so if you are on a budget for your electricy bill they probably aren't
that great a choice.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 14:17:56 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:17:56 -0400
Subject: OT - bb curve 8330 a 3g phone?
In-Reply-To: <4A5FDD44.6010307-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907161420m41352bfdwebe031fed629490e@mail.gmail.com> <4A5FDD44.6010307@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20090717141756.GC2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:09:08PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> Here's a good explanation:
> http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/93CA0BF6-6296-4DCF-88EA-9E27E617E96A.html
>
> Also, cmda might be a better technology in terms of throughput for evdo,  
> or efficiency of channel usage, but Nokia announced in 2006 that they  
> were scaling back cdma phones to all but the North American market, and  
> then only using branded handsets (e.g. not make their own cmda phones,  
> only slap their logo on them). If Nokia, arguably? the world's largest  
> mobile manufacturer drops a technology, that says something to me.

Yeah it pretty much says:
Qualcomm is a pain in the ass to deal with and extremely greedy, and
guess who owns CDMA and makes all the chipsets for CDMA?

If you use GSM, you are using a worldwide standard that lots of companies
are part of.  If you use CDMA then qualcomm owns your system entirely.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 14:39:16 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:39:16 -0700
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <20090717075648.GA7233-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907170739r346f4eb4ud592f320f20d3b67@mail.gmail.com>

Depends on what email server you're connecting to. In the case of
normal routing, it's IP-based, not port-based, so you're not going to
be able to change something specifically to mail (port
25/110/143/993/995) without delving into firewall rules, unless you do
it for all connections to [the IP of] your mailserver.


For the routing methods
If, for example, your normal gateway was at:
192.168.253.1 / eth0


By default, you might have something like (from the "route" command):

Destination      Gateway           Genmask    Flags   Metric   Ref
   Use   Iface
default             192.168.253.1   0.0.0.0        UG      0
 0           0       eth0

This is saying that, by default, all traffic flows through the gateway
at 192.168.253.1 via eth0

OK, so what if you have a mail server at 256.199.23.7 (not a real IP,
example use only), and you want all traffic to that going through a
*different* gateway. In this case, we'll use the example that this
gateway is connected via eth1, and is located at IP 10.10.10.1

route add -host 256.199.23.7 gw 10.10.10.1 dev eth1

Then you should have something like (from route):
Destination      Gateway           Genmask    Flags   Metric   Ref
   Use   Iface
default             192.168.253.1   0.0.0.0        UG      0
 0           0       eth0
256.199.23.7   10.10.10.1      255.255.255.255   UGH 1           0
       0      eth1


Both of the above, of course, assume that your NIC's are wired
correctly and have IP's that can access the named 192.x or 10.x
networks on which the gateways reside.


Depending on you network configuration, this could also likely be done
specific to the given port via firewall rules (iptables) and nat (dnat
redirection or something like that).


Hope that's helpful,


TJA

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 12:56 AM, William Park<opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> If my default gateway is on eth0, how do I route all email through
> another interface, say eth1 or ppp0 ?
>
> Any pointer or keywords would be appreciated.
>
> --
> William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 14:45:15 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:45:15 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
Message-ID: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>

Hi pals,

Yesterday evening, I ended up on news.bbc.co.uk to get my daily dose of
world news. I was surprised in a sad way to note the whole site had
extensive changes, full of advertisements and heavy flash use. The most
prominent ones were from Rogers.  Five minutes into it, I gave up and
decided to call it a day. All through that experience, I assumed the changes
had something to do with the bbc organization.

Then, today at work, I just visited  news.bbc.co.uk and behold, the old
classic interface filled the screen. Now, it does not make sense to assume
this has to do with bbc organization. The problem seem to be Rogers are
dynamically changing the content.

Now, seriously, if this is correct, its a new low. For one, it does not make
sense to advertise Roger crap if I am already using them. Second, I am now
not sure I whose content I am reading, Rogers or BBC if such an extensive
surgery is deemed acceptable.  Have someone been unfortunate to notice this?


Regards,

William
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 14:48:06 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:48:06 -0700
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <20090717041446.GA5457-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
	 <20090717041446.GA5457@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907170748t21a207f3qaac2cc652b925561@mail.gmail.com>

You owe me a keyboard. Now my nose burns like tea...

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:14 PM, William Park<opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 08:34:53PM -0400, Jason Carson wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
>> characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000 or
>> even higher?
>
> PostgreSQL.
>
> --
> William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 14:50:12 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:50:12 -0700
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907170750h6fc241ccq26544b9d09e7e097@mail.gmail.com>

A lot of sites do use services for geotargetting or other such things
for ads, and I think that various google ads do this to some extent as
well. So it could be that the adserver was noticing that "hey, this
guy is from Ontario, Canada" and throwing you a bunch of Rogers ads,
as opposed to Rogers themselves doing so?


On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:45 AM, William
Muriithi<william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hi pals,
>
> Yesterday evening, I ended up on news.bbc.co.uk to get my daily dose of
> world news. I was surprised in a sad way to note the whole site had
> extensive changes, full of advertisements and heavy flash use. The most
> prominent ones were from Rogers.? Five minutes into it, I gave up and
> decided to call it a day. All through that experience, I assumed the changes
> had something to do with the bbc organization.
>
> Then, today at work, I just visited? news.bbc.co.uk and behold, the old
> classic interface filled the screen. Now, it does not make sense to assume
> this has to do with bbc organization. The problem seem to be Rogers are
> dynamically changing the content.
>
> Now, seriously, if this is correct, its a new low. For one, it does not make
> sense to advertise Roger crap if I am already using them. Second, I am now
> not sure I whose content I am reading, Rogers or BBC if such an extensive
> surgery is deemed acceptable.? Have someone been unfortunate to notice this?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> William
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 14:52:09 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:52:09 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A609019.3040904@alteeve.com>

William Muriithi wrote:
> Hi pals,
> 
> Yesterday evening, I ended up on news.bbc.co.uk <http://news.bbc.co.uk> 
> to get my daily dose of world news. I was surprised in a sad way to note 
> the whole site had extensive changes, full of advertisements and heavy 
> flash use. The most prominent ones were from Rogers.  Five minutes into 
> it, I gave up and decided to call it a day. All through that experience, 
> I assumed the changes had something to do with the bbc organization.
> 
> Then, today at work, I just visited  news.bbc.co.uk 
> <http://news.bbc.co.uk> and behold, the old classic interface filled the 
> screen. Now, it does not make sense to assume this has to do with bbc 
> organization. The problem seem to be Rogers are dynamically changing the 
> content.
> 
> Now, seriously, if this is correct, its a new low. For one, it does not 
> make sense to advertise Roger crap if I am already using them. Second, I 
> am now not sure I whose content I am reading, Rogers or BBC if such an 
> extensive surgery is deemed acceptable.  Have someone been unfortunate 
> to notice this?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> William

Here is what I see through a non-Bell ISP.

http://madisonave.ca/pics/bbc_front_page.png

Madi
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 15:12:15 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:12:15 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <4A609019.3040904-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A609019.3040904@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907170812j5f6fa631hd1363d2e4c723004@mail.gmail.com>

Madi,

>
>> Regards,
>>
>> William
>>
>
> Here is what I see through a non-Bell ISP.
>
> http://madisonave.ca/pics/bbc_front_page.png
>
> Madi
>

Which is what I see from the office. Its a different thing from home and I
will make a screen copy later this evening.

William
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 15:16:59 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <20090717075648.GA7233-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907171112460.19007@castor.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009, William Park wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> If my default gateway is on eth0, how do I route all email through
> another interface, say eth1 or ppp0 ?
>
> Any pointer or keywords would be appreciated.

Hi William.  There are a couple of options here.

In the general sense what you want to do is called 'source routing'.

Linux has advanced routing capabilities available and does allow you to 
source route based on port number.  So you could send all SMTP traffic out 
one interface and all other traffic out another, for example.  Check out 
the ip(8) man page.  The package name to enable advanced routing is 
normally 'iproute' or 'iproute2'.   iproute had a lot of amazing stuff. 
This capability has been around for years and is very stable.

Since you mention mail there is potentially another options.  Depending on 
how your routing is currently configured you may be able to use a 'relay 
host' or a 'transport' capability within the MTA to shunt your mail to the 
right location.  This doesn't directly address whicb interface is used, 
you still need to have the routing set correctly.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 15:19:19 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:19:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907171112460.19007-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907171112460.19007@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907171118230.19007@castor.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009, Robert Brockway wrote:

> 'iproute' or 'iproute2'.   iproute had a lot of amazing stuff. This

s/had/has/

The advanced routing capability is most definitely current.

Please excuse my typo :)

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 15:21:04 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:21:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907170748t21a207f3qaac2cc652b925561-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>  <20090717041446.GA5457@node1.opengeometry.net> <3a97ef0907170748t21a207f3qaac2cc652b925561@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907171120220.19007@castor.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009, Tyler Aviss wrote:

> You owe me a keyboard. Now my nose burns like tea...

I strongly recommend against putting flaming tea up your nose.

Just a suggestion.

:)

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 15:21:35 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 19:21:35 +0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907170750h6fc241ccq26544b9d09e7e097-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0907170750h6fc241ccq26544b9d09e7e097@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6096FF.9040000@gmail.com>

Tyler Aviss wrote:
> A lot of sites do use services for geotargetting or other such things
>   
I am now in Russia. Many, if not most, commonly visited web pages have 
Russian adds, even though I am browsing English content.

I am subscribed to Moscow Linux Users Group, for years. It is quite 
however. There is no activity there like on this group. I would like to 
to talk about that but there is no one to talk with.

zb.
> for ads, and I think that various google ads do this to some extent as
> well. So it could be that the adserver was noticing that "hey, this
> guy is from Ontario, Canada" and throwing you a bunch of Rogers ads,
> as opposed to Rogers themselves doing so?
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:45 AM, William
> Muriithi<william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>   
>> Hi pals,
>>
>> Yesterday evening, I ended up on news.bbc.co.uk to get my daily dose of
>> world news. I was surprised in a sad way to note the whole site had
>> extensive changes, full of advertisements and heavy flash use. The most
>> prominent ones were from Rogers.  Five minutes into it, I gave up and
>> decided to call it a day. All through that experience, I assumed the changes
>> had something to do with the bbc organization.
>>
>> Then, today at work, I just visited  news.bbc.co.uk and behold, the old
>> classic interface filled the screen. Now, it does not make sense to assume
>> this has to do with bbc organization. The problem seem to be Rogers are
>> dynamically changing the content.
>>
>> Now, seriously, if this is correct, its a new low. For one, it does not make
>> sense to advertise Roger crap if I am already using them. Second, I am now
>> not sure I whose content I am reading, Rogers or BBC if such an extensive
>> surgery is deemed acceptable.  Have someone been unfortunate to notice this?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> William
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 15:28:07 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:28:07 -0400
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907170739r346f4eb4ud592f320f20d3b67-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net> <3a97ef0907170739r346f4eb4ud592f320f20d3b67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A609887.3080807@rogers.com>

Tyler Aviss wrote:
>
> Depending on you network configuration, this could also likely be done
> specific to the given port via firewall rules (iptables) and nat (dnat
> redirection or something like that).
>   
It's difficult for me to understand a reason for doing this.  Assuming
the mail server has a valid IP somewhere, normal routing should take
care of it.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 15:33:18 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:33:18 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907170812j5f6fa631hd1363d2e4c723004-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A609019.3040904@alteeve.com> <b8f780870907170812j5f6fa631hd1363d2e4c723004@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6099BE.3090007@alteeve.com>

William Muriithi wrote:
> Madi,
> 
> 
>         Regards,
> 
>         William
> 
> 
>     Here is what I see through a non-Bell ISP.
> 
>     http://madisonave.ca/pics/bbc_front_page.png
> 
>     Madi
> 
> 
> Which is what I see from the office. Its a different thing from home and 
> I will make a screen copy later this evening.
> 
> William

Check the source and see if there are any comments that might indicate 
Roger's fiddling.

They already fiddle with pages to warn about bandwidth usage, so they 
have the tech, and they hijack unresolvable domain names and forward to 
their search engine... So nothing would surprise me.

Madi
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 15:36:37 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:36:37 -0400
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907170748t21a207f3qaac2cc652b925561-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> <20090717041446.GA5457@node1.opengeometry.net> <3a97ef0907170748t21a207f3qaac2cc652b925561@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090717153637.GD2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 07:48:06AM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> You owe me a keyboard. Now my nose burns like tea...
> 
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:14 PM, William Park<opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 08:34:53PM -0400, Jason Carson wrote:
> >> Hello everyone,
> >>
> >> When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
> >> characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000 or
> >> even higher?
> >
> > PostgreSQL.

But is was the right answer. :)

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 16:48:23 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:48:23 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <4A6099BE.3090007-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A609019.3040904@alteeve.com> <b8f780870907170812j5f6fa631hd1363d2e4c723004@mail.gmail.com> <4A6099BE.3090007@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <4A60AB57.7070405@dinamis.com>

On 17/07/09 11:33 AM, Madison Kelly wrote:
> Check the source and see if there are any comments that might indicate
> Roger's fiddling.
> 
> They already fiddle with pages to warn about bandwidth usage, so they
> have the tech, and they hijack unresolvable domain names and forward to
> their search engine... So nothing would surprise me.

That hijacking of name resolution failures is pretty sleazy and I let
them know it. Lately, they've been having lots of transient DNS failures
on of all things, Google properties. If their crappy search results page
turned up anything useful, it would be one thing but that it returns
garbage is adding further insult to injury. Imagine the potential for
malfeasance when they can make sure that one out of every ten Google
searches results in a "Can't find Google" result and ends up displaying
a (useless) Rogers/Yahoo "search" page.

Anyway, my solution to this issue has been to point my IPCop machine at
two DNS servers on completely networks at colo facilities in Toronto and
Chicago that we use. My web browsing is much faster and name resolution
failures are no longer being hijacked. It was silly of me not to do it
sooner. I guess I reached my breaking point the other day when
track-hacks.org would fail 50% of the time with the Rogers DNS but would
be consistently reachable from machines in the above-mentioned colo
facilities.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 17:53:48 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:53:48 -0400
Subject: OT - Apollo 11 replay...
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907171053h746548c4h4b63721ea3cf152f@mail.gmail.com>

A website of interest to space flight junkies:

   http://wechoosethemoon.org/

The site does require Flash 10.

This site is playing audio recording from exactly 40 years ago today,
so you can hear the recordings of the first manned flight to the Moon.

Great stuff, but in one way it does make me feel old, as I remember
were I was on the evening June 20th 1969 (sitting in my Grandparent's
cottage near Ottawa along with a bunch of neighbours, all watching a
modest size B&W TV seeing pictures from the surface of the Moon).

Ahhh ... kids these days, back in my day we didn't go to some piddling
space station a few hundred km. up, instead we went to the Moon up a
gravity well with a computer that had all of 16K memory ... and we
bloody well liked it ... :-) .

Colin McGregor
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 18:04:28 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:04:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT - Apollo 11 replay...
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907171053h746548c4h4b63721ea3cf152f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907171053h746548c4h4b63721ea3cf152f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907171359370.19007@castor.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009, Colin McGregor wrote:

> Ahhh ... kids these days, back in my day we didn't go to some piddling
> space station a few hundred km. up, instead we went to the Moon up a
> gravity well with a computer that had all of 16K memory ... and we
> bloody well liked it ... :-) .

1st guy: In my day we went up a gravity well to get to the Moon and back!

2nd guy: Both ways!

:)


Too oblique?

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 18:08:42 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:08:42 -0400
Subject: OT - Apollo 11 replay...
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907171053h746548c4h4b63721ea3cf152f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907171053h746548c4h4b63721ea3cf152f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A60BE2A.70709@rogers.com>

Colin McGregor wrote:
> A website of interest to space flight junkies:
>
>    http://wechoosethemoon.org/
>
> The site does require Flash 10.
>
> This site is playing audio recording from exactly 40 years ago today,
> so you can hear the recordings of the first manned flight to the Moon.
>
> Great stuff, but in one way it does make me feel old, as I remember
> were I was on the evening June 20th 1969 (sitting in my Grandparent's
> cottage near Ottawa along with a bunch of neighbours, all watching a
> modest size B&W TV seeing pictures from the surface of the Moon).
>
>   

I went to a friends house, where they'd rented a colour TV just for the
event.

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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 19:08:18 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:08:18 +0400
Subject: OT - Apollo 11 replay...
In-Reply-To: <4A60BE2A.70709-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907171053h746548c4h4b63721ea3cf152f@mail.gmail.com> <4A60BE2A.70709@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4A60CC22.9080405@gmail.com>

James Knott wrote:
> Colin McGregor wrote:
>   
>> A website of interest to space flight junkies:
>>
>>    http://wechoosethemoon.org/
>>
>> The site does require Flash 10.
>>
>> This site is playing audio recording from exactly 40 years ago today,
>> so you can hear the recordings of the first manned flight to the Moon.
>>
>> Great stuff, but in one way it does make me feel old, as I remember
>> were I was on the evening June 20th 1969 (sitting in my Grandparent's
>> cottage near Ottawa along with a bunch of neighbours, all watching a
>> modest size B&W TV seeing pictures from the surface of the Moon).
>>
>>   
>>     
>
> I went to a friends house, where they'd rented a colour TV just for the
> event.
>
>   
In Poland that show was also the prime entertainment on that day, a 
direct transmission, as far as I remember (not a something usual). 
Before black-white TV, one of the first in neighborhood. Some neighbors 
were there. I was 8 years then.



> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>   

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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 20:23:30 2009
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:23:30 -0400
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907170739r346f4eb4ud592f320f20d3b67-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net> <3a97ef0907170739r346f4eb4ud592f320f20d3b67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090717202330.GA3602@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 07:39:16AM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> route add -host 256.199.23.7 gw 10.10.10.1 dev eth1

Thanks Tyler. let's try this...

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 20:56:21 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:56:21 -0400
Subject: Open Source Project Hosting
Message-ID: <a05162a70907171356v1c5532e6q251b6541fc47388f@mail.gmail.com>

What are some good free hosting services for open source projects?
I am planning on setting up a project space for the Linux distro I am
working towards.

I know about SourceForge and I just came across launchpad which seems
pretty nice.

What I am looking for is a site that will provide all the tools to
track the project, bugs, member activities. Provide a mailing for
members, and other items like tracking documents, message boards for
user community.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 20:57:59 2009
From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Kink)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:57:59 -0400
Subject: Open Source Project Hosting
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907171356v1c5532e6q251b6541fc47388f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907171356v1c5532e6q251b6541fc47388f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1eea116a0907171357s90d6498q616a0dc6fab72818@mail.gmail.com>

Google Code:

http://code.google.com/projecthosting/

Regards,
Alex Kink

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> What are some good free hosting services for open source projects?
> I am planning on setting up a project space for the Linux distro I am
> working towards.
>
> I know about SourceForge and I just came across launchpad which seems
> pretty nice.
>
> What I am looking for is a site that will provide all the tools to
> track the project, bugs, member activities. Provide a mailing for
> members, and other items like tracking documents, message boards for
> user community.
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 21:17:32 2009
From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:17:32 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090717171732.2495131a.hgibson@eol.ca>

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:45:15 -0400
William Muriithi <william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Hi pals,
> 
> Yesterday evening, I ended up on news.bbc.co.uk to get my daily dose of
> world news. I was surprised in a sad way to note the whole site had
> extensive changes, full of advertisements and heavy flash use. The most
> prominent ones were from Rogers.  Five minutes into it, I gave up and
> decided to call it a day. All through that experience, I assumed the changes
> had something to do with the bbc organization.

William,

   I am on Primus, and I do not see any odd advertising on your URL.

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org
howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org 
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 21:35:06 2009
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:35:06 -0400
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <20090717202330.GA3602-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net> <3a97ef0907170739r346f4eb4ud592f320f20d3b67@mail.gmail.com> <20090717202330.GA3602@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <20090717213506.GA3697@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 04:23:30PM -0400, William Park wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 07:39:16AM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> > route add -host 256.199.23.7 gw 10.10.10.1 dev eth1
> 
> Thanks Tyler. let's try this...

Oh my God, it works!  It seems that I was looking for too general
solution, when
    route add -host 11.22.33.44 ppp0
will do.

Here is background:

eth0 goes through Rogers, and ppp0 goes through my old ISP (which I keep
for backup).  For reasons known only to Rogers, I cannot send emails
through Rogers.  Also, I don't want to mess around Rogers' account
settings, because I'm not the owner and there is no incentive for me to
learn their system.

Other than email, both eth0 and ppp0 work okey.  When only eth0 is up or
when only ppp0 is up, I can connect to Internet.  So, I need to send all
outgoing emails through ppp0.  For emails, I can connect directly to
remote mail servers or I can use my ISP's mail server as relay (it
requires client authentication, and that's working).

The simplest solution was
    1. send all emails to my ISP mail server (11.22.33.44).
    2. send that IP (11.22.33.44) through ppp0.
It was simple because I only have one single IP to deal with.

I guess if I want to send stuffs arbitrarily through one interface or
another, then I would have to find more general solution.  Actually,
this is not uncommon.  Often, companies would have multiple connections
to Internet, and they need to send email/web/etc through different
interfaces (for whatever reason, politics, technical, policy, etc).

I guess I have to read up on "iproute2".  Thanks again.

It's nice to be back.
Your truly,
-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 21:47:20 2009
From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:47:20 -0400
Subject: Open Source Project Hosting
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907171356v1c5532e6q251b6541fc47388f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907171356v1c5532e6q251b6541fc47388f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A60F168.6040100@the-wire.com>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> What are some good free hosting services for open source projects?
> I am planning on setting up a project space for the Linux distro I am
> working towards.
> 
> I know about SourceForge and I just came across launchpad which seems
> pretty nice.
> 
> What I am looking for is a site that will provide all the tools to
> track the project, bugs, member activities. Provide a mailing for
> members, and other items like tracking documents, message boards for
> user community.

maybe http://xp-dev.com/
for another.

	Mel.


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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 22:32:12 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:32:12 -0400
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
Message-ID: <3dcab46aaaf56b7267ce4054103ef14d@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: William Park opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:35:06 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 04:23:30PM -0400, William Park wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 07:39:16AM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> > > route add -host 256.199.23.7 gw 10.10.10.1 dev eth1
> > 
> > Thanks Tyler. let's try this...
> 
> Oh my God, it works!  It seems that I was looking for too general
> solution, when
>     route add -host 11.22.33.44 ppp0
> will do.

<snip>

> It's nice to be back.
> Your truly,
> -- 
> William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>

It's nice to have you back :-)

Meng


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From ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 22:32:52 2009
From: ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org (Bill Henderson)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:32:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: (unknown)
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907161527490.10899@sheppard.torfree.net>



-- 
Please use the "Replyto" address above
to reply to this email
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 17 22:52:26 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:52:26 -0400
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907161527490.10899-wb4oErDHZp6sJdpSwXFu3uTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907161527490.10899@sheppard.torfree.net>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907171552xebdcc3bg86f6322532b82e1c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Bill Henderson<ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>
> --
> Please use the "Replyto" address above
> to reply to this email
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
Replying...

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 00:29:00 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 20:29:00 -0400
Subject: odd Internet experience?
Message-ID: <a05162a70907171729s1143ed4fx99df7f94b0289038@mail.gmail.com>

This is so noticeable that I am not quite sure what to make of it? I
notice on my dual boot PC when I browser sourceforge for example on
Linux, page download is much faster when compared to WinXP?

Since I have an account on sourceforce, I was simply browsing through
the site. It's so sluggish on WinXP that I gave up on it thinking it
was SF and not me. I am on Linux and WOW I can live/work with the page
download speed! I am wondering no is my Subversion experience will be
different??

I am not sure what to make of this, WinXP TCP/IP stack can't be this crappy?
Any ideas how I can track this down, I doubt it my IPS (Sympatico
portable modem).

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 02:43:15 2009
From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:43:15 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <20090717171732.2495131a.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>
 <20090717171732.2495131a.hgibson@eol.ca>
Message-ID: <200907172243.16223.amarjan@pobox.com>

On July 17, 2009 05:17:32 pm Howard Gibson wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:45:15 -0400
>
> William Muriithi <william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Hi pals,
> >
> > Yesterday evening, I ended up on news.bbc.co.uk to get my daily dose of
> > world news. I was surprised in a sad way to note the whole site had
> > extensive changes, full of advertisements and heavy flash use. The most
> > prominent ones were from Rogers.  Five minutes into it, I gave up and
> > decided to call it a day. All through that experience, I assumed the
> > changes had something to do with the bbc organization.
>
> William,
>
>    I am on Primus, and I do not see any odd advertising on your URL.

I'm on Rogers and right now I don't see any ads on news.bbc.co.uk. I even made 
an empty Firefox profile to confirm.

http://marjan.ca/z/bbc.jpg

Which is odd because about 10 minutes ago, with adblock running in Firefox and 
Konqueror, i saw the same placeholder for ads in the left column that shows up 
in Madison's screenshot.

Also the references to doubleclick and googlesyndication have disappeared.

Nevermind, after typing this I pressed reload and they're back. I'm more 
inclined to think that the BBC is doing something with their site and 
advertising arrangements than that Rogers is targetting them specifically.
--
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From gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 03:12:14 2009
From: gnicol-PeCUgM4zDv73fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (George Nicol)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:12:14 -0400
Subject: Routing emails through non-gateway... how?
In-Reply-To: <20090717213506.GA3697-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090717075648.GA7233@node1.opengeometry.net> <3a97ef0907170739r346f4eb4ud592f320f20d3b67@mail.gmail.com> <20090717202330.GA3602@node1.opengeometry.net> <20090717213506.GA3697@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <4A613D8E.3070605@primus.ca>

William Park wrote:

> Oh my God, it works! It seems that I was looking for
> too general solution, when
>     route add -host 11.22.33.44 ppp0
> will do.
> Here is the background: ...
> <snip>
> It's nice to be back.

Welcome back. You have been missed. And the other Mr. Park?
Thanks for wrapping up the thread.

> Your truly,
from all your old friends at TLUG
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 15:46:47 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 11:46:47 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
Message-ID: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>

By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there.  This will probably result
in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
list.  This is the first.

The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the files
in the current directory take up.  There are about a million ways to
do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
... feel free to explain though.  I decided that I'd like to do this
as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing.  I've tried
bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
split the input for it.

#! /usr/bin/awk -f

BEGIN {
  total = 0
  while ( ( "ls -l" | getline ) > 0 )
    total+=$5
  magnitude = 0
  while ( ( total/=1024 ) > 1 )
    magnitude++
  if ( magnitude == 0 ) scalesize = "B"
  if ( magnitude == 1 ) scalesize = "KiB"
  if ( magnitude == 2 ) scalesize = "MiB"
  if ( magnitude == 3 ) scalesize = "GiB"
  if ( magnitude == 4 ) scalesize = "TiB"
  if ( magnitude == 5 ) scalesize = "PiB"
  if ( magnitude == 6 ) scalesize = "EiB"
  if ( magnitude == 7 ) scalesize = "ZiB"
  if ( magnitude == 8 ) scalesize = "YiB"
  printf ("%.2f%s\n", (total*1024), scalesize)
}

The problem here is that I want to have the "total+=$5" line starting
with "/^-/" so it matches only files in the ls output.  But it barfs
if I try that.  I'm not quite sure what the problem is: perhaps
because we're in the BEGIN section, but I couldn't figure out how to
move the whole process into the body without it barfing again ... how
can I make the getline output the input to the body?  So as it stands,
this goes wrong anywhere there are character devices, for example
/dev/ , because field 5 isn't the file size.

I know I can do this sort of thing:

  ls -l | awk '/^-/ {total+=$5} ; END {printf ("%.0f", total) }'

But I'd like to have a fully self-contained awk script.  Any suggestions?

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 15:57:12 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 11:57:12 -0400
Subject: New Linux Flaw Enables Null Pointer Exploits
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907180857p2cf5901bl649e42c691a02a09@mail.gmail.com>

>From the article:

A researcher has published exploit code for a new vulnerability he
discovered in the Linux kernel. The vulnerability is an especially
interesting one in that the researcher who discovered it, Brad
Spengler, has demonstrated that he can use the weakness to defeat many
of the add-on security protections offered by SELinux and AppArmor.

The vulnerability affects both the 2.6.30 and 2.6.30.1 releases of the
Linux kernel, and in a message to the Daily Dave mailing list Spengler
said that he was able to exploit the flaw. He said that he was able to
defeat the protection against exploiting NULL pointer dereferences on
systems running SELinux and those running typical Linux
implementations. SELinux is a set of security enhancements to the
Linux OS developed by the National Security Agency.

Link: http://threatpost.com/blogs/researcher-uses-new-linux-kernel-flaw-bypass-selinux-other-protections

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 16:04:15 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:04:15 -0400
Subject: New Linux Flaw Enables Null Pointer Exploits
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907180857p2cf5901bl649e42c691a02a09-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907180857p2cf5901bl649e42c691a02a09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A61F27F.30007@utoronto.ca>

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> From the article:
> 
> A researcher has published exploit code for a new vulnerability he
> discovered in the Linux kernel. The vulnerability is an especially
> interesting one in that the researcher who discovered it, Brad
> Spengler, has demonstrated that he can use the weakness to defeat many
> of the add-on security protections offered by SELinux and AppArmor.
> 
> The vulnerability affects both the 2.6.30 and 2.6.30.1 releases of the
> Linux kernel, and in a message to the Daily Dave mailing list Spengler
> said that he was able to exploit the flaw. He said that he was able to
> defeat the protection against exploiting NULL pointer dereferences on
> systems running SELinux and those running typical Linux
> implementations. SELinux is a set of security enhancements to the
> Linux OS developed by the National Security Agency.
> 
> Link: http://threatpost.com/blogs/researcher-uses-new-linux-kernel-flaw-bypass-selinux-other-protections

It is an interesting bug because it is a compiler related optimization 
that creates the conditions necessary to exploit it.
http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=6820

I doubt many people are running 2.6.30/2.6.30.1, and even fewer with 
SELinux/AppArmor etc. Pretty niche, but a great discovery on the 
researcher's part.

Jamon
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From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 16:17:21 2009
From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:17:21 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
> edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there. ?This will probably result
> in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
> list. ?This is the first.
>
> The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the files
> in the current directory take up. ?There are about a million ways to
> do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
> don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
> ... feel free to explain though. ?I decided that I'd like to do this
> as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
> and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing. ?I've tried
> bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
> split the input for it.

Sorry, but I usually use the du command for this.

  root at music:/etc/init.d# du -h .
  504K    .

Sometimes I want to know how heavy an entire tree is, so I use

  $ du -sh foo

The 'h' argument does intelligent size management, so shows K, M and G.

-- 
Alex Beamish
Toronto, Ontario
aka talexb
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From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 16:33:06 2009
From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:33:06 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A61F942.8010809@gmail.com>

Giles Orr wrote:
...
> I know I can do this sort of thing:
> 
>   ls -l | awk '/^-/ {total+=$5} ; END {printf ("%.0f", total) }'
> 
> But I'd like to have a fully self-contained awk script.  Any suggestions?
> 

Bash is better at including awk than awk is at including pipes and
redirection.

e.g,

mike at Ubuntu-VMWare:~$ cat ./thing.bash
#!/bin/bash
ls -l | awk '
BEGIN {
        total=0
}

/^.*-/ {
        total+=$5
}

END {

  while ( ( total/=1024 ) > 1 )
    magnitude++
  if ( magnitude == 0 ) scalesize = "B"
  if ( magnitude == 1 ) scalesize = "KiB"
  if ( magnitude == 2 ) scalesize = "MiB"
  if ( magnitude == 3 ) scalesize = "GiB"
  if ( magnitude == 4 ) scalesize = "TiB"
  if ( magnitude == 5 ) scalesize = "PiB"
  if ( magnitude == 6 ) scalesize = "EiB"
  if ( magnitude == 7 ) scalesize = "ZiB"
  if ( magnitude == 8 ) scalesize = "YiB"

  printf ("%.2f%s\n", (total*1024), scalesize)

}
'

mike at Ubuntu-VMWare:~$ ./thing.bash
34.49KiB


It's self-contained, but the downside is that you lose the syntax
highlighting of your text editor.  To get around that, I sometimes
troubleshoot in a secondary awk file, then include the whole thing when
I'm done.

(I heard that there *is* a way to do this kind of self-contained stuff
exclusively in awk, but the syntax is weird and I could never make it
work. )

-Mike
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 16:58:44 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:58:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New Linux Flaw Enables Null Pointer Exploits
In-Reply-To: <4A61F27F.30007-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907180857p2cf5901bl649e42c691a02a09@mail.gmail.com> <4A61F27F.30007@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907181244520.19007@castor.opentrend.net>

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote:

> It is an interesting bug because it is a compiler related optimization that 
> creates the conditions necessary to exploit it.

Yes. Unfortunately compiler optimisation bugs are more common that a lot 
of people expect.  They are very frustrating as a review of the source 
code won't reveal the bug.  Only testing or a review of the binary will.

> I doubt many people are running 2.6.30/2.6.30.1, and even fewer with 
> SELinux/AppArmor etc. Pretty niche, but a great discovery on the researcher's 
> part.

Agreed.   If this is found to exploit earlier versions it could be bad.

I just watched this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdkpJ13e6Z0

Based on that it is a local root exploit.  Since it is in the net/tun 
code I was a bit concerned it might be remotely exploitable.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 17:54:06 2009
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:54:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907181333070.501@iceland.freeshell.org>

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009, Giles Orr wrote:

> By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
> edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there.  This will probably result
> in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
> list.  This is the first.
>
> The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the files
> in the current directory take up.  There are about a million ways to
> do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
> don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
> ... feel free to explain though.  I decided that I'd like to do this
> as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
> and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing.  I've tried
> bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
> split the input for it.
>
> #! /usr/bin/awk -f
>
> BEGIN {
>  total = 0

     You don't need that in awk; variables are automatically
     initialized to 0 or the empty string.

>  while ( ( "ls -l" | getline ) > 0 )

list=$( find . -maxdepth 1 -type f -exec stat -c %s {} +)
echo $(( ${list//$'\n'/ + } )) | awk ' ...

>    total+=$5
>  magnitude = 0
>  while ( ( total/=1024 ) > 1 )
>    magnitude++
>  if ( magnitude == 0 ) scalesize = "B"
>  if ( magnitude == 1 ) scalesize = "KiB"
>  if ( magnitude == 2 ) scalesize = "MiB"
>  if ( magnitude == 3 ) scalesize = "GiB"
>  if ( magnitude == 4 ) scalesize = "TiB"
>  if ( magnitude == 5 ) scalesize = "PiB"
>  if ( magnitude == 6 ) scalesize = "EiB"
>  if ( magnitude == 7 ) scalesize = "ZiB"
>  if ( magnitude == 8 ) scalesize = "YiB"
>  printf ("%.2f%s\n", (total*1024), scalesize)
> }
>
> The problem here is that I want to have the "total+=$5" line starting
> with "/^-/" so it matches only files in the ls output.  But it barfs
> if I try that.  I'm not quite sure what the problem is: perhaps
> because we're in the BEGIN section, but I couldn't figure out how to
> move the whole process into the body without it barfing again ... how
> can I make the getline output the input to the body?  So as it stands,
> this goes wrong anywhere there are character devices, for example
> /dev/ , because field 5 isn't the file size.
>
> I know I can do this sort of thing:
>
>  ls -l | awk '/^-/ {total+=$5} ; END {printf ("%.0f", total) }'
>
> But I'd like to have a fully self-contained awk script.  Any suggestions?
>
>

-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson                      <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 18:50:47 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:50:47 -0500
Subject: OT - Apollo 11 replay...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907171359370.19007-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907171053h746548c4h4b63721ea3cf152f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907171359370.19007@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907181150v1db21898ia1af52c9f1262d17@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/17 Robert Brockway <robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org>:
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009, Colin McGregor wrote:
>
>> Ahhh ... kids these days, back in my day we didn't go to some piddling
>> space station a few hundred km. up, instead we went to the Moon up a
>> gravity well with a computer that had all of 16K memory ... and we
>> bloody well liked it ... :-) .
>
> 1st guy: In my day we went up a gravity well to get to the Moon and back!
>
> 2nd guy: Both ways!
>
> :)
>
>
> Too oblique?

Oh come on.  Monty Python is so embedded in the psyche of our entire
culture that I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "too oblique"
Python reference.  Hell, even "the kids these days" know Python
(Monty, not the language).  And besides, it made me grin.

No tea snorting though: we only do that for PostgresSQL.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 20:05:54 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:05:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907130136s24400685u240a633686e1234d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>  <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>  <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907130136s24400685u240a633686e1234d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907181547330.22878@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| I have also given up on Fedora11 working on my system, it is totally
| crap. I can't manage to get a legit update completed, several
| attempts. When I partial update only the "bugs" and I reboot my system
| gets hosed and I end up in a console window, this has happened twice.
| 
| Very disappointed and annoyed with Fedora11, not solid/stable at all
| ... Kubuntu x64 was more solid and stable from a OS (base) point of
| view, I was able to update and reboot with no issues.
| 
| I am going to give Kubuntu x32 a try, hopefully I can have a solid
| Linux OS working soon.

Fedora 11 works fine on my x86_64 desktop.
It didn't work so well on my obscure subnotebook.

I just did an update on my desktop and it was painless.

Your annoyance comes through clearly but not your actual problem.

If you encounter a bug, please look for it on Fedora's bugzilla.  If
you don't find it, add it: this is how progress is made.  If you do
find an entry, you might find useful suggestions there.  You might if
be able to add something useful too.

You should always read the release notes and common bugs documents:
  http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f11/en-US/
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F11_bugs

A lot of difficulties with F11 are due to the aggressive adoption of
"kernel mode setting".  KMS is the future but field testing exposes a
number of problems with particular systmes.

Fedora 11 x86_64 runs 32-bit programs with no trouble.  64-bit code
cannot run 32-bit libraries, of course.  Plug-ins are typically more
like libraries than programs.
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 21:53:40 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:53:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907140824w48c140c5r60b3048bda61ef96-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca>  <20090713204301.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>  <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907131754010.19007@castor.opentrend.net> <3a97ef0907140824w48c140c5r60b3048bda61ef96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907181744001.24804@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Tyler Aviss <tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| IDE->CF adaptors work nicely too.

| The adaptors are on ebay for peanuts, but one has to beware the
| female/male pinnings as some have to plug into the motherboard, while
| others run on a standard IDE cable (sometimes you may need a
| 3.5"->2.5" HDD adaptor too for cable size).

Some adapters do DMA and some don't.  You want DMA (costs no more).

Some CF cards do DMA and some don't.  You probably want DMA (may cost
more).

Some CF cards have SLC (single-level cells) and some have MLC
(multi-).  SLC is more expensive, faster, and allows way more write
cycles.

Wear-leveling capabilities of CF cards are not documented but matter.

Mark Lord gave a nice presentation at the Linux Symposium about using
a RAM disk to speed up this kind of setup.  During his talk, I
actually dropped his scripts onto my notebook running Ubuntu 9.04.
They worked with no tweeking (except for adding a grub entry).
  http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2009/view_abstract.php?content_key=72

The proceedings should appear online soon (this was expected a few
days ago so I might be looking the wrong place). Since this was a
tutorial it might not be included.
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From ivan-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 18 22:10:10 2009
From: ivan-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Ivan)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907161527490.10899-wb4oErDHZp6sJdpSwXFu3uTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907161527490.10899@sheppard.torfree.net>
Message-ID: <819646.82440.qm@web88206.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


?

 {\o/}
./_\



----- Original Message ----
> From: Bill Henderson <ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org>
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 6:32:52 PM
> Subject: 
> 
> 
> 
> -- Please use the "Replyto" address above
> to reply to this email
> --
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 03:48:01 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 23:48:01 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907182048p40df3876v3c791c13ca3ecd19@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 11:32, meng<meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Len Katz, the CRTC's vice-chair of telecommunications, asked about Bell's throttled speeds.
>
> Daniels said peer-to-peer file transfers are reduced to a speed of 256 kilobits per second between 6 p.m. and 1 a.m. in Ontario and Quebec. That is a 98.5 per cent reduction from the maximum advertised speed of 16 megabits per second that Bell uses to sell its Internet Max 16 service.
>
> Between 4:30 p.m. and 6 p.m. and between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m., the company slows downloads to 512 kilobits per second. Daniels added that the numbers would be posted on its website soon.
>
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/14/crtc-bell-internet-traffic-management-providers-custom

Why wouldn't they open the speeds faster overnight instead of slowing
them down, of course it's Bell and they are stupid!


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 07:05:08 2009
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 03:05:08 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090719070508.GA19654@waltdnes.org>

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:45:15AM -0400, William Muriithi wrote

> Yesterday evening, I ended up on news.bbc.co.uk to get my daily
> dose of world news. I was surprised in a sad way to note the whole
> site had extensive changes, full of advertisements and heavy flash
> use. The most prominent ones were from Rogers.  Five minutes into it,
> I gave up and decided to call it a day. All through that experience,
> I assumed the changes had something to do with the bbc organization.
> 
> Then, today at work, I just visited news.bbc.co.uk and behold,
> the old classic interface filled the screen. Now, it does not make
> sense to assume this has to do with bbc organization. The problem
> seem to be Rogers are dynamically changing the content.

  I don't think so.  I'm on Teksavvy.  I tried news.bbc.co.uk with
Firefox 3.011. On my regular profile with the NoScript add-in, I get
the "classic" site, but on my "wideopen" profile, I got scrolling
headlines and ads that were obviously geotargeted for Canada.  One of
them even had the 416 area code in its "contact us" area.

  A quick-n-dirty way to tell them apart...

* with NoScript (regular profile) I see "Latest Stories" and 5 lines
listing the latest stories

* without NoScript (wideopen profile) I see "Latest Stories" as only one
line, but the line gets blanked and a new headline scrolls in, gets
blanked, and replaced by the next headline.  Rinse, lather, repeat.  I
*HATE* scrolling.

  I strongly recommend Firefox with the NoScript add-in.  It greatly
improves my browsing experience.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org>
--
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From waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 07:24:34 2009
From: waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org (Walter Dnes)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 03:24:34 -0400
Subject: Redhat to replace CIT Group on S&P 500 Index on July 24
Message-ID: <20090719072434.GB19654@waltdnes.org>

  Redhat is hitting the big time.  For those who don't know about CIT
Group, it is an American lending institution that is on the verge of
bankruptcy.  See article at...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601014&sid=aAxblWMCEuDg
No, it is *NOT* related to CitiBank.

  When a company on an index gets into financial trouble, it is often
de-listed before bankruptcy, and replaced by another company.  The
replacement, in this case, is Redhat.  They're breaking into the big
leagues now.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes-SLHPyeZ9y/tg9hUCZPvPmw at public.gmane.org>
--
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 15:19:58 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:19:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <4A60AB57.7070405-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com>  <4A609019.3040904@alteeve.com> <b8f780870907170812j5f6fa631hd1363d2e4c723004@mail.gmail.com> <4A6099BE.3090007@alteeve.com> <4A60AB57.7070405@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907191113170.24804@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: CLIFFORD ILKAY <clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>

[about rogers cable service]

| That hijacking of name resolution failures is pretty sleazy and I let
| them know it. Lately, they've been having lots of transient DNS failures
| on of all things, Google properties.

| Anyway, my solution to this issue has been to point my IPCop machine at
| two DNS servers on completely networks at colo facilities in Toronto and
| Chicago that we use.

I run a DNS server on my gateway machine (connected to the internet
via Rogers).  That server does not use any forwarders: it walks the
tree itself.  And of course it caches.

Rogers' DNS servers have crapped out enough times that I just work
around them.

My gateway is a small old PC.  I don't know whether consumer routers
can easily run a DNS server.  Surely OpenWRT can.
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 15:30:36 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:30:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New Linux Flaw Enables Null Pointer Exploits
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907181244520.19007-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907180857p2cf5901bl649e42c691a02a09@mail.gmail.com> <4A61F27F.30007@utoronto.ca> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907181244520.19007@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907191124590.24804@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Robert Brockway <robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org>

| On Sat, 18 Jul 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote:
| 
| > It is an interesting bug because it is a compiler related optimization that
| > creates the conditions necessary to exploit it.
| 
| Yes. Unfortunately compiler optimisation bugs are more common that a lot of
| people expect.  They are very frustrating as a review of the source code won't
| reveal the bug.  Only testing or a review of the binary will.

Actually this is not a compiler bug.  A surprising optimization, yes.
But a correct one.

What I have not understood is why the null-pointer dereference does
not generate a kernel oops.  The articles seem to wave their hands and
say things like "mmap" and "SELinux", but that makes no sense to me.
This is a kernel null pointer and mmap deals with userland address
spaces.  Surely SELinux would not prevent null-pointer detection in
the kernel address space.
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 16:27:22 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 12:27:22 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>
	 <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/18 Alex Beamish <talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
>> edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there. ?This will probably result
>> in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
>> list. ?This is the first.
>>
>> The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the files
>> in the current directory take up. ?There are about a million ways to
>> do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
>> don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
>> ... feel free to explain though. ?I decided that I'd like to do this
>> as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
>> and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing. ?I've tried
>> bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
>> split the input for it.
>
> Sorry, but I usually use the du command for this.
>
> ?root at music:/etc/init.d# du -h .
> ?504K ? ?.
>
> Sometimes I want to know how heavy an entire tree is, so I use
>
> ?$ du -sh foo
>
> The 'h' argument does intelligent size management, so shows K, M and G.

I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
incorporated into a Bash prompt).  If it's possible to stop "du" from
recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
impossible.  Any thoughts?

Thanks to everyone else who answered too: it all helped.  It certainly
sounds like piping into "awk" is the way to go rather than trying to
write a self-contained "awk" script.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 17:05:16 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 13:05:16 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>	 <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A63524C.10805@utoronto.ca>

Giles Orr wrote:
> 2009/7/18 Alex Beamish <talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
>>> edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there.  This will probably result
>>> in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
>>> list.  This is the first.
>>>
>>> The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the files
>>> in the current directory take up.  There are about a million ways to
>>> do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
>>> don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
>>> ... feel free to explain though.  I decided that I'd like to do this
>>> as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
>>> and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing.  I've tried
>>> bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
>>> split the input for it.
>> Sorry, but I usually use the du command for this.
>>
>>  root at music:/etc/init.d# du -h .
>>  504K    .
>>
>> Sometimes I want to know how heavy an entire tree is, so I use
>>
>>  $ du -sh foo
>>
>> The 'h' argument does intelligent size management, so shows K, M and G.
> 
> I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
> right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
> the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
> makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
> incorporated into a Bash prompt).  If it's possible to stop "du" from
> recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
> impossible.  Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks to everyone else who answered too: it all helped.  It certainly
> sounds like piping into "awk" is the way to go rather than trying to
> write a self-contained "awk" script.
> 

Try this:

#!/bin/bash

i=0 j=0 k=0
echo -n "Enter directory: "
read dir
for i in `ls $dir`
   do
     if [ -f $i ]; then
       j=`du -s $i |awk '{print $1}'`
       k=`expr $k + $j`
     fi
   done
echo $k

Jamon
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 19:17:29 2009
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 15:17:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <4A63524C.10805-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>  <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com> <4A63524C.10805@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907191513570.501@iceland.freeshell.org>

On Sun, 19 Jul 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote:

> Giles Orr wrote:
>> 2009/7/18 Alex Beamish <talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>>> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>> By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
>>>> edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there.  This will probably result
>>>> in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
>>>> list.  This is the first.
>>>> 
>>>> The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the files
>>>> in the current directory take up.  There are about a million ways to
>>>> do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
>>>> don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
>>>> ... feel free to explain though.  I decided that I'd like to do this
>>>> as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
>>>> and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing.  I've tried
>>>> bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
>>>> split the input for it.
>>> Sorry, but I usually use the du command for this.
>>>
>>>  root at music:/etc/init.d# du -h .
>>>  504K    .
>>> 
>>> Sometimes I want to know how heavy an entire tree is, so I use
>>>
>>>  $ du -sh foo
>>> 
>>> The 'h' argument does intelligent size management, so shows K, M and G.
>> 
>> I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
>> right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
>> the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
>> makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
>> incorporated into a Bash prompt).  If it's possible to stop "du" from
>> recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
>> impossible.  Any thoughts?
>> 
>> Thanks to everyone else who answered too: it all helped.  It certainly
>> sounds like piping into "awk" is the way to go rather than trying to
>> write a self-contained "awk" script.
>> 
>
> Try this:

   DON'T.

> #!/bin/bash
>
> i=0 j=0 k=0
> echo -n "Enter directory: "
> read dir
> for i in `ls $dir`

     Not only is ls unnecessary, but it will cause the script to fail
     if any filenames contain spaces or other pathological characters.
     Use:

for i in "$dir"/*

>  do
>    if [ -f $i ]; then
>      j=`du -s $i |awk '{print $1}'`
>      k=`expr $k + $j`
>    fi
>  done
> echo $k


-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson                      <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
--
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 19:22:19 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 15:22:19 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907191513570.501-nQ2Ej40/2pe5WaLLEYFbnZcPDiHTxzko@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>  <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com> <4A63524C.10805@utoronto.ca> <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907191513570.501@iceland.freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <4A63726B.4060004@utoronto.ca>

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jul 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> 
>> Giles Orr wrote:
>>> 2009/7/18 Alex Beamish <talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>>>> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>>> By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
>>>>> edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there.  This will probably result
>>>>> in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
>>>>> list.  This is the first.
>>>>>
>>>>> The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the files
>>>>> in the current directory take up.  There are about a million ways to
>>>>> do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
>>>>> don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
>>>>> ... feel free to explain though.  I decided that I'd like to do this
>>>>> as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
>>>>> and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing.  I've tried
>>>>> bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
>>>>> split the input for it.
>>>> Sorry, but I usually use the du command for this.
>>>>
>>>>  root at music:/etc/init.d# du -h .
>>>>  504K    .
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I want to know how heavy an entire tree is, so I use
>>>>
>>>>  $ du -sh foo
>>>>
>>>> The 'h' argument does intelligent size management, so shows K, M and G.
>>>
>>> I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
>>> right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
>>> the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
>>> makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
>>> incorporated into a Bash prompt).  If it's possible to stop "du" from
>>> recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
>>> impossible.  Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> Thanks to everyone else who answered too: it all helped.  It certainly
>>> sounds like piping into "awk" is the way to go rather than trying to
>>> write a self-contained "awk" script.
>>>
>>
>> Try this:
> 
>   DON'T.
> 
>> #!/bin/bash
>>
>> i=0 j=0 k=0
>> echo -n "Enter directory: "
>> read dir
>> for i in `ls $dir`
> 
>     Not only is ls unnecessary, but it will cause the script to fail
>     if any filenames contain spaces or other pathological characters.
>     Use:
> 
> for i in "$dir"/*
> 
>>  do
>>    if [ -f $i ]; then
>>      j=`du -s $i |awk '{print $1}'`
>>      k=`expr $k + $j`
>>    fi
>>  done
>> echo $k
> 
> 

Interesting, I started with for i in * but that barfs on stuff too. 
Suppose since I don't have an files I can see with spaces in their names 
(pathological hatred for such names), it appears to work correctly for me :)

Jamon
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 19:53:12 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 15:53:12 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <4A63726B.4060004-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>
	 <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A63524C.10805@utoronto.ca>
	 <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907191513570.501@iceland.freeshell.org>
	 <4A63726B.4060004@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907191253n14d6e0d0u7d6f79199a192117@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/19 Jamon Camisso <jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org>:
> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 19 Jul 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote:
>>
>>> Giles Orr wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2009/7/18 Alex Beamish <talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
>>>>>> edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there. ?This will probably result
>>>>>> in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
>>>>>> list. ?This is the first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the files
>>>>>> in the current directory take up. ?There are about a million ways to
>>>>>> do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
>>>>>> don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
>>>>>> ... feel free to explain though. ?I decided that I'd like to do this
>>>>>> as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
>>>>>> and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing. ?I've tried
>>>>>> bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
>>>>>> split the input for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, but I usually use the du command for this.
>>>>>
>>>>> ?root at music:/etc/init.d# du -h .
>>>>> ?504K ? ?.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes I want to know how heavy an entire tree is, so I use
>>>>>
>>>>> ?$ du -sh foo
>>>>>
>>>>> The 'h' argument does intelligent size management, so shows K, M and G.
>>>>
>>>> I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
>>>> right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
>>>> the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
>>>> makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
>>>> incorporated into a Bash prompt). ?If it's possible to stop "du" from
>>>> recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
>>>> impossible. ?Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to everyone else who answered too: it all helped. ?It certainly
>>>> sounds like piping into "awk" is the way to go rather than trying to
>>>> write a self-contained "awk" script.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Try this:
>>
>> ?DON'T.
>>
>>> #!/bin/bash
>>>
>>> i=0 j=0 k=0
>>> echo -n "Enter directory: "
>>> read dir
>>> for i in `ls $dir`
>>
>> ? ?Not only is ls unnecessary, but it will cause the script to fail
>> ? ?if any filenames contain spaces or other pathological characters.
>> ? ?Use:
>>
>> for i in "$dir"/*
>>
>>> ?do
>>> ? if [ -f $i ]; then
>>> ? ? j=`du -s $i |awk '{print $1}'`
>>> ? ? k=`expr $k + $j`
>>> ? fi
>>> ?done
>>> echo $k
>>
>>
>
> Interesting, I started with for i in * but that barfs on stuff too. Suppose
> since I don't have an files I can see with spaces in their names
> (pathological hatred for such names), it appears to work correctly for me :)

Rewritten in bash rather than sh (this is for the Bash Prompt HOWTO, I
can assume they're using bash), removing the use of awk, and targeting
just the current directory:

#!/bin/bash
# filename "lsbytesum.du"

filesize=0
total=0
for filename in ./*
 do
   if [ -f "${filename}" ]
   then
     duout=$(du -s "${filename}")
     #filesize=$(du -s "${filename}" |awk '{print $1}')
     total=$((${total} + ${duout%       *}))
   fi
 done
echo ${total}

A note about "${duout%       *}" - "du" uses a tab as a separator, so
that's what the whitespace is here.

And to clarify the intended use:

$ export PS1="[\w (\$(lsbytesum.du)KiB)]\n[\D{%Y%m%d.%H%M}]\$ "
[/home/music/Supertramp/Breakfast in America (43388KiB)]
[20090719.1542]$ cd ..
[/home/music/Supertramp (0KiB)]
[20090719.1543]$ cd /iso/
[/iso (8593564KiB)]
[20090719.1545]$

I used a music folder because, while I agree with Jamon to a certain
extent about spaces in names, I do like them in music files ...  We
won't discuss how much owning that album dates me.

I'll work on the display (ie. KiB, MiB, GiB ...) and confirm that in
fact it _is_ KiB rather than KB, but this is almost exactly what I was
looking for.  Thanks!

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 20:04:48 2009
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:04:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <4A63726B.4060004-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>  <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com> <4A63524C.10805@utoronto.ca>
 <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907191513570.501@iceland.freeshell.org> <4A63726B.4060004@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907191555180.501@iceland.freeshell.org>

On Sun, 19 Jul 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote:

> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Jul 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote:
>> 
>>> Giles Orr wrote:
>>>> 2009/7/18 Alex Beamish <talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>>>> By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
>>>>>> edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there.  This will probably result
>>>>>> in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
>>>>>> list.  This is the first.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the files
>>>>>> in the current directory take up.  There are about a million ways to
>>>>>> do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
>>>>>> don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
>>>>>> ... feel free to explain though.  I decided that I'd like to do this
>>>>>> as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
>>>>>> and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing.  I've tried
>>>>>> bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
>>>>>> split the input for it.
>>>>> Sorry, but I usually use the du command for this.
>>>>>
>>>>>  root at music:/etc/init.d# du -h .
>>>>>  504K    .
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sometimes I want to know how heavy an entire tree is, so I use
>>>>>
>>>>>  $ du -sh foo
>>>>> 
>>>>> The 'h' argument does intelligent size management, so shows K, M and G.
>>>> 
>>>> I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
>>>> right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
>>>> the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
>>>> makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
>>>> incorporated into a Bash prompt).  If it's possible to stop "du" from
>>>> recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
>>>> impossible.  Any thoughts?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks to everyone else who answered too: it all helped.  It certainly
>>>> sounds like piping into "awk" is the way to go rather than trying to
>>>> write a self-contained "awk" script.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Try this:
>>
>>   DON'T.
>> 
>>> #!/bin/bash
>>> 
>>> i=0 j=0 k=0
>>> echo -n "Enter directory: "
>>> read dir
>>> for i in `ls $dir`
>>
>>     Not only is ls unnecessary, but it will cause the script to fail
>>     if any filenames contain spaces or other pathological characters.
>>     Use:
>> 
>> for i in "$dir"/*
>>
>>>  do
>>>    if [ -f $i ]; then
>>>      j=`du -s $i |awk '{print $1}'`

    Always quote variable references unless there is a good reason not
    to: "$i". Without them, it fails if the value contains spaces.

>>>      k=`expr $k + $j`

     Why are you using an external command for integer arithmetic?

>>>    fi
>>>  done
>>> echo $k

du -s "$dir"/* | awk '{ total += $1 } END { print total }'

> Interesting, I started with for i in * but that barfs on stuff too.

    There are other problems, too. I just reacted to the horrible
    "for i in `ls dir`". There is no point to using ls without any
    options; shell expansion can do it much more efficiently.

> Suppose since I don't have an files I can see with spaces in their
> names (pathological hatred for such names), it appears to work
> correctly for me :)

    I feel the same way of filenames with spaces, but they are hard to
    avoid. I never create any, but I expect that every distro contains
    many, and downloads often do. Unless you get into the habit of
    handling them, your scripts will fail sooner or later.

-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson                      <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
--
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 20:35:58 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:35:58 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907191555180.501-nQ2Ej40/2pe5WaLLEYFbnZcPDiHTxzko@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>  <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com> <4A63524C.10805@utoronto.ca> <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907191513570.501@iceland.freeshell.org> <4A63726B.4060004@utoronto.ca> <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907191555180.501@iceland.freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <4A6383AE.8000807@utoronto.ca>

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jul 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> 
>> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Jul 2009, Jamon Camisso wrote:
>>>
>>>> Giles Orr wrote:
>>>>> 2009/7/18 Alex Beamish <talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> By way of introduction: I'm finally, finally trying to get a new
>>>>>>> edition of the Bashprompt HOWTO out there.  This will probably 
>>>>>>> result
>>>>>>> in me posting a lot of detailed and mildly weird questions to this
>>>>>>> list.  This is the first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The intention of this script is to figure out how much space the 
>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>> in the current directory take up.  There are about a million ways to
>>>>>>> do this - and yes, I know that "ls -l" spits out a "total" line: I
>>>>>>> don't know what it's totaling, but my math has never agreed with it
>>>>>>> ... feel free to explain though.  I decided that I'd like to do this
>>>>>>> as much in awk as possible since it does decimal math (unlike bash)
>>>>>>> and it's certainly the easiest way to do the text parsing.  I've 
>>>>>>> tried
>>>>>>> bc as well, but you have to use other utility programs to parse and
>>>>>>> split the input for it.
>>>>>> Sorry, but I usually use the du command for this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  root at music:/etc/init.d# du -h .
>>>>>>  504K    .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sometimes I want to know how heavy an entire tree is, so I use
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  $ du -sh foo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 'h' argument does intelligent size management, so shows K, M 
>>>>>> and G.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
>>>>> right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
>>>>> the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
>>>>> makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
>>>>> incorporated into a Bash prompt).  If it's possible to stop "du" from
>>>>> recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
>>>>> impossible.  Any thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to everyone else who answered too: it all helped.  It certainly
>>>>> sounds like piping into "awk" is the way to go rather than trying to
>>>>> write a self-contained "awk" script.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Try this:
>>>
>>>   DON'T.
>>>
>>>> #!/bin/bash
>>>>
>>>> i=0 j=0 k=0
>>>> echo -n "Enter directory: "
>>>> read dir
>>>> for i in `ls $dir`
>>>
>>>     Not only is ls unnecessary, but it will cause the script to fail
>>>     if any filenames contain spaces or other pathological characters.
>>>     Use:
>>>
>>> for i in "$dir"/*
>>>
>>>>  do
>>>>    if [ -f $i ]; then
>>>>      j=`du -s $i |awk '{print $1}'`
> 
>    Always quote variable references unless there is a good reason not
>    to: "$i". Without them, it fails if the value contains spaces.

Right, like your last point, if there are spaces. Guess it's a good 
habit to get into so I'll definitely make a point of it.

>>>>      k=`expr $k + $j`
> 
>     Why are you using an external command for integer arithmetic?

Dunno how to do it in bash, grimace. Than fancy $(( )) stuff? Will have 
a go at that instead.

>>>>    fi
>>>>  done
>>>> echo $k
> 
> du -s "$dir"/* | awk '{ total += $1 } END { print total }'

Or I'll just use awk since that's what started this thread :)

>> Interesting, I started with for i in * but that barfs on stuff too.
> 
>    There are other problems, too. I just reacted to the horrible
>    "for i in `ls dir`". There is no point to using ls without any
>    options; shell expansion can do it much more efficiently.
> 
>> Suppose since I don't have an files I can see with spaces in their
>> names (pathological hatred for such names), it appears to work
>> correctly for me :)
> 
>    I feel the same way of filenames with spaces, but they are hard to
>    avoid. I never create any, but I expect that every distro contains
>    many, and downloads often do. Unless you get into the habit of
>    handling them, your scripts will fail sooner or later.

Got it, I suppose I should approach writing scripts as more than one off 
single use tools and see about making them more robust, your pointers 
are very much appreciated.

Jamon
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From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 21:55:04 2009
From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:55:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: odd Internet experience?
References: <a05162a70907171729s1143ed4fx99df7f94b0289038@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20090719T214647-641@post.gmane.org>

Many websites use lots of JavaScript and IE has its own way of handling this. If
you want to see raw speed try Opera, it is recognized as the fastest browser out
there. Many open source applications running on windows run much faster than the
native m$ libraries based ones likely because the libraries of the open source
programs are less bloated and make fewer stupid unneeded 'microsoft network'
'microsoft drm' 'microsoft whatever the cat brought in this week' lookups. A
notorious one is the 'image view' application which takes as long to open a
picture as it takes gimp to load all its extensions and open 10 or more 
images.

For example it is notorious that certain registry entries made in a large
registry will slow down IE and Word startup to the point where the system
appears frozen for several minutes. The 'interesting' waiting hourglass that
windows users can admire for several minutes upon logon has a similar 
explanation. 

Explaining this 'normal' state to users after reinstalling and cleaning the
system is part of any windows technicians salesmanship, and part of the reason
why I don't do that except for relatives, and only when I have to (I have a PC
repairer, soft and hard - to component level, diploma since 1994, but I took 
it to certify my already old knowledge at the time).

  Peter


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From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 22:00:44 2009
From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 22:00:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
References: <b8f780870907170745i7810edeek1da91b61d1b6e229@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0907170750h6fc241ccq26544b9d09e7e097@mail.gmail.com> <4A6096FF.9040000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20090719T215616-314@post.gmane.org>

Use tor and privoxy or vidalia and set your exit point to one in a country you
like. If you do not set the exit point you get to travel quite a bit :) A few
days ago I had to deal with Danish buttons in Google and the Norwegian edition
of Yahoo   ~8<> . Almost everyone is 'geotargetting' now. Very annoying but it's
free, so live with it.

What really ticks me off is Windows CE updates and ceaseless ad hammering on
wireless where every byte hits one in the pocket, literally. A 1GB data plan can
be reduced to 400k by 2-3 windows updates and forgetting a browser open on a
spammy site like Yahoo. I did not bother to meter the exact usage but I will try
to do that eventually, with an eye towards sending the resulting bill to Eben
Moglen (as a hint) and to Yahoo etc too.

  Peter

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From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 22:39:48 2009
From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 22:39:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bell.ca website access very slow
Message-ID: <loom.20090719T223832-347@post.gmane.org>

I have tried this with various browsers and os's and even from other accounts,
it's always extremely slow. Is there some canuck tweak that can fix this or ?

tia,
  Peter

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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 22:53:28 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 18:53:28 -0400
Subject: Kubuntu x64
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907181547330.22878-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907121357j57ba2a4eqba0ec72f1ce70039@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A5A703B.11728.7679CE1D@sciguy.vex.net>
	 <a05162a70907122200v79309162wba38cd34d1255d6b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907130136s24400685u240a633686e1234d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907181547330.22878@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907191553w672549t380701c93fd9f2f3@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier<hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> | From: Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>
> | I have also given up on Fedora11 working on my system, it is totally
> | crap. I can't manage to get a legit update completed, several
> | attempts. When I partial update only the "bugs" and I reboot my system
> | gets hosed and I end up in a console window, this has happened twice.
> |
> | Very disappointed and annoyed with Fedora11, not solid/stable at all
> | ... Kubuntu x64 was more solid and stable from a OS (base) point of
> | view, I was able to update and reboot with no issues.
> |
> | I am going to give Kubuntu x32 a try, hopefully I can have a solid
> | Linux OS working soon.
>
> Fedora 11 works fine on my x86_64 desktop.
> It didn't work so well on my obscure subnotebook.
>
> I just did an update on my desktop and it was painless.
>
> Your annoyance comes through clearly but not your actual problem.
>
> If you encounter a bug, please look for it on Fedora's bugzilla. ?If
> you don't find it, add it: this is how progress is made. ?If you do
> find an entry, you might find useful suggestions there. ?You might if
> be able to add something useful too.
>
> You should always read the release notes and common bugs documents:
> ?http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f11/en-US/
> ?https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F11_bugs
>
> A lot of difficulties with F11 are due to the aggressive adoption of
> "kernel mode setting". ?KMS is the future but field testing exposes a
> number of problems with particular systmes.
>
> Fedora 11 x86_64 runs 32-bit programs with no trouble. ?64-bit code
> cannot run 32-bit libraries, of course. ?Plug-ins are typically more
> like libraries than programs.
> --

Unless KMS effect their package download manage I don't it was KMS
that caused stability issues for me with update. It might however
point to why f11 was useless after a reboot or on the next boot up
after install. The problems I was seeing are well know for f11 from
what I found out from the form. I found f11 was not suitable for
general use of my system.

If there was a way I could update my system without package manager
going bye bye I might be inclined to help out f11 with 'field'
testing. It was really irresponsible of the fedora team to release
their OS as f11, they should have done their field testing before f11
was release. I am not sure how much it's damaged its following with
'soft fedora users?

I have been using Kunubtu 64 for about 2 weeks in which time I made a
few updates to the system and downloaded other package without any
issues. The system is rock solid from what I can tell. I also find the
Ubuntu community very well organized and I've decided to become a
member. I would rather spend my time make sure the solid Kubuntu is
kept solid rather than report countless issues on a distribution like
f11 that it too aggressive.


-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 23:06:31 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 19:06:31 -0400
Subject: odd Internet experience?
In-Reply-To: <loom.20090719T214647-641-eS7Uydv5nfjZ+VzJOa5vwg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907171729s1143ed4fx99df7f94b0289038@mail.gmail.com>
	 <loom.20090719T214647-641@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907191606s75454976u60ce8eb9581285ed@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Peter<plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Many websites use lots of JavaScript and IE has its own way of handling this. If
> you want to see raw speed try Opera, it is recognized as the fastest browser out
> there. Many open source applications running on windows run much faster than the
> native m$ libraries based ones likely because the libraries of the open source
> programs are less bloated and make fewer stupid unneeded 'microsoft network'
> 'microsoft drm' 'microsoft whatever the cat brought in this week' lookups. A
> notorious one is the 'image view' application which takes as long to open a
> picture as it takes gimp to load all its extensions and open 10 or more
> images.
>
> For example it is notorious that certain registry entries made in a large
> registry will slow down IE and Word startup to the point where the system
> appears frozen for several minutes. The 'interesting' waiting hourglass that
> windows users can admire for several minutes upon logon has a similar
> explanation.
>
> Explaining this 'normal' state to users after reinstalling and cleaning the
> system is part of any windows technicians salesmanship, and part of the reason
> why I don't do that except for relatives, and only when I have to (I have a PC
> repairer, soft and hard - to component level, diploma since 1994, but I took
> it to certify my already old knowledge at the time).
>
> ?Peter

Well I has just re-imaged my WinXP partition a week before installed
Kubuntu and notice the page load difference. I don't think SourceForge
is javascript heavy that's it's making the internet experience
different on Windows and Linux.

Why do page speed be different (only) on sourceforce?

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav

t
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From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 23:15:38 2009
From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:15:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: odd Internet experience?
References: <a05162a70907171729s1143ed4fx99df7f94b0289038@mail.gmail.com>  <loom.20090719T214647-641@post.gmane.org> <a05162a70907191606s75454976u60ce8eb9581285ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20090719T231350-256@post.gmane.org>

Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca at ...> writes:
> Well I has just re-imaged my WinXP partition a week before installed
> Kubuntu and notice the page load difference. I don't think SourceForge
> is javascript heavy that's it's making the internet experience
> different on Windows and Linux.

Use a registry cleaner instead, it's faster and gets you almost the same
improvement.
 
> Why do page speed be different (only) on sourceforce?

Because they use very heavy AJAX and IE has its own ideas on when the page is
'loaded' and displayable (breaking the standards as usual). An AJAX page of
course never 'finishes' loading.

Peter





--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 19 23:31:17 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 19:31:17 -0400
Subject: odd Internet experience?
In-Reply-To: <loom.20090719T231350-256-eS7Uydv5nfjZ+VzJOa5vwg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907171729s1143ed4fx99df7f94b0289038@mail.gmail.com>
	 <loom.20090719T214647-641@post.gmane.org>
	 <a05162a70907191606s75454976u60ce8eb9581285ed@mail.gmail.com>
	 <loom.20090719T231350-256@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907191631kcd5f890lf1051edb7826b236@mail.gmail.com>

>> Why do page speed be different (only) on sourceforce?
>
> Because they use very heavy AJAX and IE has its own ideas on when the page is
> 'loaded' and displayable (breaking the standards as usual). An AJAX page of
> course never 'finishes' loading.
>
> Peter

OK I didn't know that about AJAX, then it makes sense what I am
seeing, thanks! You're right about IE8 ideas about when a page is
displayable, I noticed on Linux the page is displayed while the status
of the browser is showing it's downloading stuff. With IE8, it keeps
downloading stuff and then there is a painful wait before the display.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 00:05:04 2009
From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Kink)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:05:04 -0400
Subject: Bell.ca website access very slow
In-Reply-To: <loom.20090719T223832-347-eS7Uydv5nfjZ+VzJOa5vwg@public.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20090719T223832-347@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1eea116a0907191705i24a2f3a5l5856ab93db54a92@mail.gmail.com>

Its been slow for as long as I can remember. Especially the whole billing
system.

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Peter <plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I have tried this with various browsers and os's and even from other
> accounts,
> it's always extremely slow. Is there some canuck tweak that can fix this or
> ?
>
> tia,
>  Peter
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 03:34:09 2009
From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:34:09 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com> <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090720033409.GA5731@node1.opengeometry.net>

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 12:27:22PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
> right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
> the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
> makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
> incorporated into a Bash prompt).  If it's possible to stop "du" from
> recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
> impossible.  Any thoughts?

1.  (find -type f -maxdepth 1 -mindepth 1 -printf '%s+'; echo 0) | bc
2.  $(( $(find -type f -maxdepth 1 -mindepth 1 -printf '%s+') 0 ))

You can use '%k' and '%b' to get disk space in 1024 and 512 bytes.

-- 
William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>
--
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From ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 06:51:39 2009
From: ab460-0l1pH2CMacvR7s880joybQ at public.gmane.org (SlackRat)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 02:51:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: What's happening here?
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907200158210.25630@sheppard.torfree.net>

Does anyone know why I should be getting hit by Microsoft every 
few seconds?

I do occasionally run Gaim/Pidgin, but the hits come in whether 
they are loaded or not.

The Source IP varies, DPT doesn't, and the interval between hits 
varies but is never more than a few minutes but more usually 
just a few seconds

They are all dropped, but neverthless a nuisance

[SNIP k^n from Syslog]
Jul 19 14:55:48 darkstar kernel: MSOFT:IN=eth0 OUT=
MAC=00:14:c2:0a:24:74:00:24:d4:b1:72:bc:08:00 SRC=65.55.67.197
DST=82.242.109.147 LEN=48 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=115 ID=757 DF
PROTO=TCP SPT=49636 DPT=6080 WINDOW=65535 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0

Jul 19 14:58:49 darkstar kernel: MSOFT:IN=eth0 OUT=
MAC=00:14:c2:0a:24:74:00:24:d4:b1:72:bc:08:00 SRC=65.55.106.115
DST=82.242.109.147 LEN=48 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=117 ID=11782 DF
PROTO=TCP SPT=48208 DPT=80 WINDOW=65535 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0

Jul 19 14:58:52 darkstar kernel: MSOFT:IN=eth0 OUT=
MAC=00:14:c2:0a:24:74:00:24:d4:b1:72:bc:08:00 SRC=65.55.106.115
DST=82.242.109.147 LEN=48 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=117 ID=17750 DF
PROTO=TCP SPT=48208 DPT=80 WINDOW=65535 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0

Jul 19 14:58:58 darkstar kernel: MSOFT:IN=eth0 OUT=
MAC=00:14:c2:0a:24:74:00:24:d4:b1:72:bc:08:00 SRC=65.55.106.182
DST=82.242.109.147 LEN=48 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=116 ID=890 DF
PROTO=TCP SPT=23028 DPT=80 WINDOW=65535 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0

-- 
Slackrat
--
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From pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 14:23:48 2009
From: pete-6NP59FE1ho9MFQD/ygXjfdBPR1lH4CV8 at public.gmane.org (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:23:48 -0700
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
Message-ID: <b03c7000cae04830454e48e8db5602d2.squirrel@petelancashire.com>

from the documentation

... and 0 to 65,535 in 5.0.3 and later versions ...

-pete

> Hello everyone,
>
> When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
> characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000 or
> even higher?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jason
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

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From rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 14:40:52 2009
From: rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Dice)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:40:52 -0400
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
Message-ID: <5bef4baf0907200740o604655bfy26e5bbeddedf5770@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jason,


> When creating a table in MySQL varchar supports a length of up to 255
> characters. Does anybody know what I use if I want to support say 10000 or
> even higher?
>

This is going to depend somewhat on what version of MySQL you are using.
Newer versions allow you to specify varchar up to varchar(65535).  For
example, see http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/char.html

If you need more than that, consider using the 'text' data type.
http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/blob.html
Before you use text data types you should read up on the various differences
between it and varchar in terms of text encoding, padding, indexing, storage
and efficiency.  It's all mentioned in the online manual, but you need to
look around in a few places for it.

Cheers,
 - Richard
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 17:08:32 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:08:32 -0400
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <0869bc53a93da8af096d9b46093aac29.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
	 <b8f780870907161800n7848d539y5de9da23025116c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0869bc53a93da8af096d9b46093aac29.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907201008h12ccb2aaob27ced3eb81010cb@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> I came across this (http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/char.html) and
> if you are using MySQL 5.0.3 or newer (which I am) then the length can be
> up to 65535.
>
> Is there any reason to use varchar2 over varchar or vice versa?


Another difference is varchar always pad stuff if the maximum length was not
utilized, while varchar2 allow for variable size. What I mean by that is, if
you are using varchar and you insert 10, I think its saved as 010 where 255
is the maximum size. varchar2 does not handle it that way though. If you
insert 10, it does not save 00010, but just 10

Regards,

>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 17:14:22 2009
From: mcg2-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Matthew Godycki)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:14:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907201008h12ccb2aaob27ced3eb81010cb-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>  <b8f780870907161800n7848d539y5de9da23025116c@mail.gmail.com>  <0869bc53a93da8af096d9b46093aac29.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> <b8f780870907201008h12ccb2aaob27ced3eb81010cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <853237.27675.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com>



I came across this (http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/char.html) and
>>if you are using MySQL 5.0.3 or newer (which I am) then the length can be
>>up to 65535.
>
>>Is there any reason to use varchar2 over varchar or vice versa?

> Another difference is varchar always pad stuff if the maximum length was not utilized, while varchar2 allow for variable size. 
> What I mean by that is, if you are using varchar and you insert 10, I think its saved as 010 where 255 is the maximum size. 
> varchar2 does not handle it that way though. If you insert 10, it does not save 00010, but just 10

You've got the ride idea  but the details are wrong.  Varchar pads with spaces, not with 0's.
These days, basically always use varchar2 unless you're only storing a one-character flag,
in which case it's easiest to use char.

-M
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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 17:48:58 2009
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:48:58 -0400
Subject: Colour Laser Printer - Free to a good home
Message-ID: <20090720174858.GA12370@yam.witteman.ca>

This is a repeat - the first taker of this item was unable to arrange
pickup.

***

At work we have recently replaced an OKI C3200n.  This printer may be
fine, put the person in charge of its care and feeding was having
problems with paper jams, so they ordered an HP.

This leaves us with an extra printer, two black cartridges and four
colour cartridges.  We basically need to get it out of the office, so if
you want it and are willing to come pick it up, it's yours.

Info:

http://www.okic3200n.co.uk/

http://www.openprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=Oki-C3200

It is being replaced because of recurring paper jams, but that is not
necessarily a fundamental problem - your mileage may vary.  Still, we
are sending this out "AS IS".

We are located at College and University.  Email offlist if you are
interested.
-- 

yours,

William

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From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 17:57:43 2009
From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:57:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: What's happening here?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907200158210.25630-wb4oErDHZp6sJdpSwXFu3uTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907200158210.25630@sheppard.torfree.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907201355470.10839@imac2006.local>

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, SlackRat wrote:
> Does anyone know why I should be getting hit by Microsoft 
> every few seconds?

Except for the first example, the other ones seems to came from 
msnbot-*.search.msn.com to port 80, so seemingly they are from 
MS web crawler. Can you think any reason a web crawler think 
there is a website at your address?

-- 
    ____  ____  ____  ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo
   /___  /___/ /___/ /___      http://www.arifsaha.com/
  ____/ /     /   / ____/
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 18:03:16 2009
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:03:16 -0400
Subject: Colour Laser Printer - Free to a good home
In-Reply-To: <20090720174858.GA12370-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090720174858.GA12370@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <20090720180316.GB13218@yam.witteman.ca>

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 01:48:58PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
>This is a repeat - the first taker of this item was unable to arrange
>pickup.

Aaand it's claimed again.  Thank you all.
-- 

yours,

William

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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 20:40:33 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:40:33 -0700
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907181744001.24804-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca>
	 <20090713204301.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907131754010.19007@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <3a97ef0907140824w48c140c5r60b3048bda61ef96@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907181744001.24804@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907201340y6470aeaakc0111a8fadda9dbd@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, one thing I've been wondering was whether anyone has
experience with card-intended filesystems.
It seems the more popular ones such as YAFFS2 or JAFFS2 require a
special interface to the flash rather than just a cardreader, etc (or
perhaps I'm just reading it wrong) which functions in block mode.

I haven't been able to find much support for flash-on-block devices,
but it seems to me that with SSD's and flash-storage becoming more
popular, questions of filesystems in relation to access times,
data-integrity, and data-wearing become important.

In my case I'm just using ext3 as I still have need/use for unix file
permissions, but I doubt that it's a great choice. Googling seems to
show that most people seem to recommend just using FAT or possibly
NTFS for compatability, but from a permissions angle that's not so
useful.

Anyone else have some knowledge along the areas of flash storage and
filesystems? In my case I have an EEE with an internal SSD, and my
user storage which automounts on login (pam-mount+UnionFS is AWESOME)
from a flash card.



On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 2:53 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier<hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> | From: Tyler Aviss <tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>
> | IDE->CF adaptors work nicely too.
>
> | The adaptors are on ebay for peanuts, but one has to beware the
> | female/male pinnings as some have to plug into the motherboard, while
> | others run on a standard IDE cable (sometimes you may need a
> | 3.5"->2.5" HDD adaptor too for cable size).
>
> Some adapters do DMA and some don't. ?You want DMA (costs no more).
>
> Some CF cards do DMA and some don't. ?You probably want DMA (may cost
> more).
>
> Some CF cards have SLC (single-level cells) and some have MLC
> (multi-). ?SLC is more expensive, faster, and allows way more write
> cycles.
>
> Wear-leveling capabilities of CF cards are not documented but matter.
>
> Mark Lord gave a nice presentation at the Linux Symposium about using
> a RAM disk to speed up this kind of setup. ?During his talk, I
> actually dropped his scripts onto my notebook running Ubuntu 9.04.
> They worked with no tweeking (except for adding a grub entry).
> ?http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2009/view_abstract.php?content_key=72
>
> The proceedings should appear online soon (this was expected a few
> days ago so I might be looking the wrong place). Since this was a
> tutorial it might not be included.
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 21:00:59 2009
From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:00:59 -0400
Subject: Fedora question
Message-ID: <200907201701.00306.icanprogram@295.ca>

I have never been able to open a TCP/IP port on Fedora 9.    ie.  I have a 
piece of server code that I want to put on port 50000,   how does one tell 
Fedora 9 that this port is available?

I've thought that it must be a firewall issue,  so I disabled the firewall in 
Fedora 9 ... no dice.    If you tell the Fedora firewall that port 50000 is 
now trusted,  the nice utility takes that in but doesn't change anything.   
If you query again immediately,  50000 is still untrusted.

Thanks in advance for the magic formula.

bob
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The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 22:28:06 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:28:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907201340y6470aeaakc0111a8fadda9dbd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca>  <20090713204301.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>  <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907131754010.19007@castor.opentrend.net>  <3a97ef0907140824w48c140c5r60b3048bda61ef96@mail.gmail.com>  <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907181744001.24804@redclaw.mimosa.com>
 <3a97ef0907201340y6470aeaakc0111a8fadda9dbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907201821111.24804@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Tyler Aviss <tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

[Please don't top-post.]

| Actually, one thing I've been wondering was whether anyone has
| experience with card-intended filesystems.
| It seems the more popular ones such as YAFFS2 or JAFFS2 require a
| special interface to the flash rather than just a cardreader, etc (or
| perhaps I'm just reading it wrong) which functions in block mode.

That is my understanding.  Ignore them.

| In my case I'm just using ext3

Mark Lord recommends ext2 over ext3 for this application.  He does not
yet use ext4 (it is pretty new); I don't remember what he thought of
ext4 and other new filesystems (eg. nilfs) for flash.

Using a union filesystem, with a ramdisk on top, reduces wear (and
persistence).  This is what Mark described at Linux Symposium.
--
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 22:33:03 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:33:03 -0400
Subject: MySQL
In-Reply-To: <853237.27675.qm-1NIlFuzKg1GB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <47ecd79d53b7f1e73b0212ab01c5f3a6.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
	 <b8f780870907161800n7848d539y5de9da23025116c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0869bc53a93da8af096d9b46093aac29.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca>
	 <b8f780870907201008h12ccb2aaob27ced3eb81010cb@mail.gmail.com>
	 <853237.27675.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907201533n4f52e4c3p1360b02d5485a671@mail.gmail.com>

Mathew,


>
> You've got the ride idea  but the details are wrong.  Varchar pads with
> spaces, not with 0's.
> These days, basically always use varchar2 unless you're only storing a
> one-character flag,
> in which case it's easiest to use char.
>
Correct, thanks for fixing my broken memory.

Regards,

William
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 02:11:14 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:11:14 -0400
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <20090720033409.GA5731-qFXCSEZiv8lIJHMOrJ9DSGq87BGP6SvQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>
	 <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090720033409.GA5731@node1.opengeometry.net>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907201911w2ab685cdn111549766a2c5500@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/19 William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>:
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 12:27:22PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
>> I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
>> right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
>> the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
>> makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
>> incorporated into a Bash prompt). ?If it's possible to stop "du" from
>> recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
>> impossible. ?Any thoughts?
>
> 1. ?(find -type f -maxdepth 1 -mindepth 1 -printf '%s+'; echo 0) | bc
> 2. ?$(( $(find -type f -maxdepth 1 -mindepth 1 -printf '%s+') 0 ))
>
> You can use '%k' and '%b' to get disk space in 1024 and 512 bytes.

Wow, thanks: that's a thing of beauty.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 02:44:55 2009
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:44:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: awk help needed
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907201911w2ab685cdn111549766a2c5500-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907180846j30c6125ex2fe1af0c5b363522@mail.gmail.com>  <f9870c010907180917o14b73255qc6f41c93f9e227d0@mail.gmail.com>  <1f13df280907190927o56715dbayaa07dcf73dcdaa4f@mail.gmail.com>  <20090720033409.GA5731@node1.opengeometry.net>
 <1f13df280907201911w2ab685cdn111549766a2c5500@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.00.0907202243480.501@iceland.freeshell.org>

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, Giles Orr wrote:

> 2009/7/19 William Park <opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org>:
>> On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 12:27:22PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
>>> I would love to use "du" because initially it seems like precisely the
>>> right tool ... but I want only the sum of the sizes of the files in
>>> the current directory, and "du" is by default recursive (which also
>>> makes it painfully slow to return, not a good thing for something
>>> incorporated into a Bash prompt). ?If it's possible to stop "du" from
>>> recursing, I'll use it immediately - but that looks difficult to
>>> impossible. ?Any thoughts?
>>
>> 1. ?(find -type f -maxdepth 1 -mindepth 1 -printf '%s+'; echo 0) | bc
>> 2. ?$(( $(find -type f -maxdepth 1 -mindepth 1 -printf '%s+') 0 ))
>>
>> You can use '%k' and '%b' to get disk space in 1024 and 512 bytes.
>
> Wow, thanks: that's a thing of beauty.

     Not if you use it anywhere but Linux. The -printf operand is
     specific to the GNU version of find.

-- 
    Chris F.A. Johnson                      <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 14:15:13 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:15:13 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907182048p40df3876v3c791c13ca3ecd19-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570907182048p40df3876v3c791c13ca3ecd19@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:48:01PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 11:32, meng<meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Len Katz, the CRTC's vice-chair of telecommunications, asked about Bell's throttled speeds.
> >
> > Daniels said peer-to-peer file transfers are reduced to a speed of 256 kilobits per second between 6 p.m. and 1 a.m. in Ontario and Quebec. That is a 98.5 per cent reduction from the maximum advertised speed of 16 megabits per second that Bell uses to sell its Internet Max 16 service.
> >
> > Between 4:30 p.m. and 6 p.m. and between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m., the company slows downloads to 512 kilobits per second. Daniels added that the numbers would be posted on its website soon.
> >
> >
> > http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/14/crtc-bell-internet-traffic-management-providers-custom
> 
> Why wouldn't they open the speeds faster overnight instead of slowing
> them down, of course it's Bell and they are stupid!

It looked to me as:

16:30 - 18:00: 512kbps
18:00 - 01:00: 256kbps
01:00 - 02:00: 512kbps
02:00 - 16:30: no limit specified

Did you get something else from it?

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 14:26:00 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:26:00 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <20090721141513.GE2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com> <7c50d3570907182048p40df3876v3c791c13ca3ecd19@mail.gmail.com> <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:48:01PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 11:32, meng<meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> Len Katz, the CRTC's vice-chair of telecommunications, asked about Bell's throttled speeds.
>>>
>>> Daniels said peer-to-peer file transfers are reduced to a speed of 256 kilobits per second between 6 p.m. and 1 a.m. in Ontario and Quebec. That is a 98.5 per cent reduction from the maximum advertised speed of 16 megabits per second that Bell uses to sell its Internet Max 16 service.
>>>
>>> Between 4:30 p.m. and 6 p.m. and between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m., the company slows downloads to 512 kilobits per second. Daniels added that the numbers would be posted on its website soon.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/14/crtc-bell-internet-traffic-management-providers-custom
>> Why wouldn't they open the speeds faster overnight instead of slowing
>> them down, of course it's Bell and they are stupid!
> 
> It looked to me as:
> 
> 16:30 - 18:00: 512kbps
> 18:00 - 01:00: 256kbps
> 01:00 - 02:00: 512kbps
> 02:00 - 16:30: no limit specified
> 
> Did you get something else from it?
> 

I've been noticing lately (last couple weeks) that at night, nothing in 
an ssh tunnel works. Or rather, when it does, I am lucky to get 2kbps. 
scp, rsync, sftp... all fail. Come morning though, it's fine.

There is throttling and then there is shutting off. The most maddening 
is that I am not even a Bell customer. Our ISP though is in the dark as 
much as out customers are though.

Madi
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 14:41:18 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:41:18 -0400
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907201340y6470aeaakc0111a8fadda9dbd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca> <20090713204301.GU15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907131754010.19007@castor.opentrend.net> <3a97ef0907140824w48c140c5r60b3048bda61ef96@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907181744001.24804@redclaw.mimosa.com> <3a97ef0907201340y6470aeaakc0111a8fadda9dbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090721144118.GF2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 01:40:33PM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> Actually, one thing I've been wondering was whether anyone has
> experience with card-intended filesystems.
> It seems the more popular ones such as YAFFS2 or JAFFS2 require a
> special interface to the flash rather than just a cardreader, etc (or
> perhaps I'm just reading it wrong) which functions in block mode.
> 
> I haven't been able to find much support for flash-on-block devices,
> but it seems to me that with SSD's and flash-storage becoming more
> popular, questions of filesystems in relation to access times,
> data-integrity, and data-wearing become important.

This is what NilFS is targeting as far as I understand it.  Not entirely
sure though.  After all since there is no seek penalty, there is no
reason to not just write wherever you want.  No reason to try and avoid
fragmentation.

> In my case I'm just using ext3 as I still have need/use for unix file
> permissions, but I doubt that it's a great choice. Googling seems to
> show that most people seem to recommend just using FAT or possibly
> NTFS for compatability, but from a permissions angle that's not so
> useful.

FAT has no benefit whatsoever over ext3 as far as being nice to the flash
is concerned (FAT is probably worse).  The only benefit to FAT is that
just about everything can read it.  NTFS doesn't even have that, it
only has the advantage of being the only filesystem windows supports
with decent acceess controls and large file support.

> Anyone else have some knowledge along the areas of flash storage and
> filesystems? In my case I have an EEE with an internal SSD, and my
> user storage which automounts on login (pam-mount+UnionFS is AWESOME)
> from a flash card.

Well if the device appears as IDE or SATA, then treating it as such
probably makes sense, although you might want to avoid unnecesary writes.

If you have a raw flash chip access (through MTD) then using JFFS2 or
such makes sense.  They only make sense on raw flash chips though.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 15:36:28 2009
From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:36:28 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <20090716200257.68da6f0f.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com> <20090716200257.68da6f0f.hgibson@eol.ca>
Message-ID: <4A65E07C.3060408@ve3syb.ca>

On 07/16/2009 08:02 PM, Howard Gibson wrote:
> Where is the Pastafarian version dammit!
Pastafarian?? Did you mean Rastafarian?

This certainly seems an odd thing to do at first, but on second thought, 
why not. There are all sorts of Linux distros aimed at a particular 
niche. Why not ones for different religious communities.

--
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From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 15:46:01 2009
From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:46:01 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <4A65CFF8.10106-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com>
 <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <200907211146.01907.amarjan@pobox.com>

On July 21, 2009 10:26:00 am Madison Kelly wrote:

> I've been noticing lately (last couple weeks) that at night, nothing in
> an ssh tunnel works. Or rather, when it does, I am lucky to get 2kbps.
> scp, rsync, sftp... all fail. Come morning though, it's fine.
>
> There is throttling and then there is shutting off. The most maddening
> is that I am not even a Bell customer. Our ISP though is in the dark as
> much as out customers are though.

Forgive the stupid question, but is it possible to get DSL service that 
doesn't run through Bell systems?

I'm on Rogers and while it works well enough technically, I've been subjected 
to business practices that are... probably illegal, and I'm looking for an 
alternative.

However I've heard from a number of people with different DSL ISPs that 
arbitrary encrypted connections get killed, as you've described.

So is there a third option -- neither Rogers, nor someone that Bell can 
sabotage?

Thanks.
--
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 15:51:46 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:51:46 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <200907211146.01907.amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com> <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com> <200907211146.01907.amarjan@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <4A65E412.3050301@utoronto.ca>

Andrej Marjan wrote:
> On July 21, 2009 10:26:00 am Madison Kelly wrote:
> 
>> I've been noticing lately (last couple weeks) that at night, nothing in
>> an ssh tunnel works. Or rather, when it does, I am lucky to get 2kbps.
>> scp, rsync, sftp... all fail. Come morning though, it's fine.
>>
>> There is throttling and then there is shutting off. The most maddening
>> is that I am not even a Bell customer. Our ISP though is in the dark as
>> much as out customers are though.
> 
> Forgive the stupid question, but is it possible to get DSL service that 
> doesn't run through Bell systems?
> 
> I'm on Rogers and while it works well enough technically, I've been subjected 
> to business practices that are... probably illegal, and I'm looking for an 
> alternative.
> 
> However I've heard from a number of people with different DSL ISPs that 
> arbitrary encrypted connections get killed, as you've described.
> 
> So is there a third option -- neither Rogers, nor someone that Bell can 
> sabotage?

Primus: iirc if you are in an area where they have their own dslam they 
don't behave like bell with their shaping (though they will prioritize 
voip/streaming). It is hard to know about your specific area though 
since Primus also have a wholesale arrangement with Bell for areas where 
they don't own their own equipment.

Jamon
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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 15:53:42 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:53:42 -0400
Subject: Religious versions of Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <4A65E07C.3060408-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907161457x1ffb52c9l89770864f794c7e9@mail.gmail.com> <20090716200257.68da6f0f.hgibson@eol.ca> <4A65E07C.3060408@ve3syb.ca>
Message-ID: <4A65E486.408@moores.ca>



Kevin Cozens wrote:
> On 07/16/2009 08:02 PM, Howard Gibson wrote:
>> Where is the Pastafarian version dammit!
> Pastafarian?? Did you mean Rastafarian?
> 

lol. Arrrg no matey he meant Pastafarian.

Shiver me timbers and pass the raman.


http://www.venganza.org/


Arrrrrggg
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From mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 15:57:17 2009
From: mwilson-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Mel Wilson)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:57:17 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <200907211146.01907.amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com> <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com> <200907211146.01907.amarjan@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <4A65E55D.4030109@the-wire.com>

Andrej Marjan wrote:
[ ... ]
> However I've heard from a number of people with different DSL ISPs that 
> arbitrary encrypted connections get killed, as you've described.
> 
> So is there a third option -- neither Rogers, nor someone that Bell can 
> sabotage?

I know of nothing, short of reinventing FidoNet with our wireless routers.

	Mel.
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 16:07:03 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:07:03 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <200907211146.01907.amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com> <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com> <200907211146.01907.amarjan@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <4A65E7A7.6040104@alteeve.com>

Andrej Marjan wrote:
> On July 21, 2009 10:26:00 am Madison Kelly wrote:
> 
>> I've been noticing lately (last couple weeks) that at night, nothing in
>> an ssh tunnel works. Or rather, when it does, I am lucky to get 2kbps.
>> scp, rsync, sftp... all fail. Come morning though, it's fine.
>>
>> There is throttling and then there is shutting off. The most maddening
>> is that I am not even a Bell customer. Our ISP though is in the dark as
>> much as out customers are though.
> 
> Forgive the stupid question, but is it possible to get DSL service that 
> doesn't run through Bell systems?
> 
> I'm on Rogers and while it works well enough technically, I've been subjected 
> to business practices that are... probably illegal, and I'm looking for an 
> alternative.
> 
> However I've heard from a number of people with different DSL ISPs that 
> arbitrary encrypted connections get killed, as you've described.
> 
> So is there a third option -- neither Rogers, nor someone that Bell can 
> sabotage?
> 
> Thanks.

Short answer, Yes.

Long answer, For now.

There is a service called HSA, High Speed Access. It basically creates a 
point to point link over DSL. This in theory should route passed Bell's 
traffic shaping, but it still goes over their copper, so nothing is 
technically (or legally, it seems), from stopping them from shaping it 
in the future.

Problem is, it's pricey.

Madi
--
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 16:11:15 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:11:15 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <4A65E55D.4030109-4YeSL8/OYKRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com> <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com> <200907211146.01907.amarjan@pobox.com> <4A65E55D.4030109@the-wire.com>
Message-ID: <4A65E8A3.1020507@alteeve.com>

Mel Wilson wrote:
> Andrej Marjan wrote:
> [ ... ]
>> However I've heard from a number of people with different DSL ISPs 
>> that arbitrary encrypted connections get killed, as you've described.
>>
>> So is there a third option -- neither Rogers, nor someone that Bell 
>> can sabotage?
> 
> I know of nothing, short of reinventing FidoNet with our wireless routers.
> 
>     Mel.

Well, that was the idea of mesh networking.

The problem though is that for 95% of people, the shaping means nothing. 
They don't care, and they see no reason to worry about it, if they think 
of it at all.

Of the last 5% of us who do care, our numbers are too small to do 
anything about it at this time. We could get into an arms race of 
sorts... We come up with ways to bypass their filters, they lock things 
down more (my theory on the SSH tunnels), but at the end of the day 
nothing gets fixed.

The problem is the bandwidth needed to compete with cable/DSL while at 
the same time being able to afford the infrastructure when the cost is 
borne by a fairly small group. As of today, I don't see a capable 
technology.

My only hope is that these restrictions will continue to press enough 
that eventuall, Internet delivery will have it's own "Linux/FOSS" moment 
and someone smarter than me will come up with that new, magical delivery 
method that finally works around the big telco's.

Madi
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From ayilmaz-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 20 22:40:22 2009
From: ayilmaz-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Amanda Yilmaz)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:40:22 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
Message-ID: <1248129622.2081.1325973271@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 06:45 -0400, "William Muriithi"
<william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
...
Yesterday evening, I ended up on news.bbc.co.uk to get my
daily dose of world news. I was surprised in a sad way to note
the whole site had extensive changes, full of advertisements
and heavy flash use. The most prominent ones were from
Rogers.  Five minutes into it, I gave up and decided to call
it a day. All through that experience, I assumed the changes
had something to do with the bbc organization.
...

This does appear to be due to a new policy at the BBC. From
<http://faq.external.bbc.co.uk/questions/bbc_online/adverts_general>:

"The BBC puts advertising on its website for users outside the UK. We use the income to help fund BBC services and keep the licence fee, (paid by UK households), lower than it otherwise would be."

The above-mentioned page also contains information on how to contact them if you're "experiencing an issue with video advertising" or see "inappropriate advertising" on their site.

While I understand their reasoning in theory, I'm not at all convinced that this is a good idea in practice. From a world perspective, BBC News isn't just any news service; since the halcyon days of shortwave radio it's also effectively been a part of the UK's foreign relations, a way of promoting Britain and the "British way" abroad for relatively little cost compared to the dividends in worldwide respect and goodwill. Seen this way, it might have made more sense to keep the BBC News site free of advertising for the same reason the BBC World Service (as far as I know) never carried advertising: advertisements can blunt the impact of the actual content, and have the potential to reduce the worldwide impression of the BBC's quality and impartiality.

Of course, no one asked me.

Amanda
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From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 17:41:00 2009
From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:41:00 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <4A65E8A3.1020507-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com>
	 <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com> <200907211146.01907.amarjan@pobox.com>
	 <4A65E55D.4030109@the-wire.com> <4A65E8A3.1020507@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <92ee967a0907211041n50dde46eib5120333d2df18c9@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Madison Kelly<linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Mel Wilson wrote:
>>
>> Andrej Marjan wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>> However I've heard from a number of people with different DSL ISPs that
>>> arbitrary encrypted connections get killed, as you've described.
>>>
>>> So is there a third option -- neither Rogers, nor someone that Bell can
>>> sabotage?
>>
>> I know of nothing, short of reinventing FidoNet with our wireless routers.
>>
>> ? ?Mel.
>
> Well, that was the idea of mesh networking.

I really like the idea of setting something like this up.  It seems to
me that IPv6 is capable of a dynamic addressing scheme devoid of
central authority.

For names, it always struck me as remarkable that Gnutella could be
fully distributed and allow for searching.  It might be a good way to
offer name resolution in a completely distributed mesh network.

So if we stuck antennas out our windows and offered a web server on an
IPv6 network to jump on the first browser request, sharing the "hi,
this is my router and this is how-to-set-up your computer" page, what
would happen?

One could also offer a site which could show a map of people running nodes.

Has anyone already created such a project?  I get conflicting info
from Google, although I can find some references to using Gnutella as
a distributed DNS protocol.

A capable routing protocol might be tricky.  Stuff that scales and is
resistant to abuse is tough.

-Mike
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 17:49:41 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:49:41 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <1248129622.2081.1325973271-2RFepEojUI2N1INw9kWLP6GC3tUn3ZHUQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248129622.2081.1325973271@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907211049t277f4117l219ba3440efc067a@mail.gmail.com>

>
> This does appear to be due to a new policy at the BBC. From
> <http://faq.external.bbc.co.uk/questions/bbc_online/adverts_general>:
>
> "The BBC puts advertising on its website for users outside the UK. We use
> the income to help fund BBC services and keep the licence fee, (paid by UK
> households), lower than it otherwise would be."
>
> The above-mentioned page also contains information on how to contact them
> if you're "experiencing an issue with video advertising" or see
> "inappropriate advertising" on their site.
>

Yeah, I did come to agree this had nothing to do with Rogers. As Madi had
suggested, I checked  the page source and was reasonably certain BBC was the
issue here.  The funny part is, they do not seem to apply it across  board
as I can still see the classic site from office with the same firefox
profile I use at home.



>
> While I understand their reasoning in theory, I'm not at all convinced that
> this is a good idea in practice. From a world perspective, BBC News isn't
> just any news service; since the halcyon days of shortwave radio it's also
> effectively been a part of the UK's foreign relations, a way of promoting
> Britain and the "British way" abroad for relatively little cost compared to
> the dividends in worldwide respect and goodwill. Seen this way, it might
> have made more sense to keep the BBC News site free of advertising for the
> same reason the BBC World Service (as far as I know) never carried
> advertising: advertisements can blunt the impact of the actual content, and
> have the potential to reduce the worldwide impression of the BBC's quality
> and impartiality.
>
Sadly, that is very true.  Have not been at their site since that day. Just
found it too repugnant - may be they had entrenched too much expectation on
them. Anyway, may finally register for washington post access,  another site
I stopped visiting couple of years back after they enforced registration.

>
> Of course, no one asked me.


Agree.... thanks a lot

>
>
> Amanda
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
Regards,

William
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 18:00:53 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:00:53 -0400
Subject: Mesh (type) networking
In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0907211041n50dde46eib5120333d2df18c9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com>	 <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>	 <4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com> <200907211146.01907.amarjan@pobox.com>	 <4A65E55D.4030109@the-wire.com> <4A65E8A3.1020507@alteeve.com> <92ee967a0907211041n50dde46eib5120333d2df18c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A660255.2050005@alteeve.com>

Mike Kallies wrote:
>>>> So is there a third option -- neither Rogers, nor someone that Bell can
>>>> sabotage?
>>> I know of nothing, short of reinventing FidoNet with our wireless routers.
>>>
>>>    Mel.
>> Well, that was the idea of mesh networking.
> 
> I really like the idea of setting something like this up.  It seems to
> me that IPv6 is capable of a dynamic addressing scheme devoid of
> central authority.
> 
> For names, it always struck me as remarkable that Gnutella could be
> fully distributed and allow for searching.  It might be a good way to
> offer name resolution in a completely distributed mesh network.
> 
> So if we stuck antennas out our windows and offered a web server on an
> IPv6 network to jump on the first browser request, sharing the "hi,
> this is my router and this is how-to-set-up your computer" page, what
> would happen?
> 
> One could also offer a site which could show a map of people running nodes.
> 
> Has anyone already created such a project?  I get conflicting info
> from Google, although I can find some references to using Gnutella as
> a distributed DNS protocol.
> 
> A capable routing protocol might be tricky.  Stuff that scales and is
> resistant to abuse is tough.
> 
> -Mike

In principle, it would work. In practice...

Let's look at potential legal pitfalls. Let's say someone jumps on and 
starts downloading illegal material. Who is at fault? The node owner 
will catch flak and possibly get shut down. The only way around this is 
to require people to sign up, but then the node owner becomes a 
mini-ISP. What then happens if the gov't passes data retention laws like 
they're trying to do?

I'm not saying it's not worth looking at, but these issues are just as 
important to address as a scalable routing protocol is.

Also, who here has time time to assemble a community where people can 
hash out ideas? Who here has enough free time and drive to work on a 
project like this?

Asking honestly, not sarcastically.

Madi
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 18:52:23 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:52:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <20090713204416.GV15752-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca> <4A5B7873.70302@utoronto.ca> <20090713204416.GV15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907211434260.6576@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>

| On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 02:09:55PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:

| > How about a $99 SheevaPlug on a vlan?

Cute!

| Much better version for that (and many other) job(s).
| http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/p-24-openrd-client-openrd-client-board-with-enclosure.aspx

Better, but more than twice the price.  That price is too close to the
price of even more capable boxes.

Another possibility is the PC Engine ALIX 2D3: C$135 (+ C$15 for a
case).  500MHz Geode (i386), 256K RAM, CF socket, MiniPCI socket, 3 ethernet
(100MHz, I think), 2 USB (I think).
http://www.xagyl.com/store/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=2&sort=&sort_direction=&page=1

One of Dell's deals of the day is the Linksys WRT160NL for C$90.
Close, but no cigar: not yet supported by OpenWRT, but it appears
possible.  A lot like the WRT54GS which might be discontinued.
Improvement: has 802.11n (which isn't yet a final standard, as far as
I know).  This router has 8G flash, 32G RAM, and a USB port -- better
than the WRT54GL.  The standard firmware is Linux-based (2.4 kernel!).

Note: I've not used any of these.

PS: there are other interesting Dell deals today: $125 19" LCD looks
good, $100 1TB external drive (USB) (Future Shop has a special on this
same drive for $130), $30 4-port HDMI switch, etc.

http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/days_of_deals
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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 18:55:42 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:55:42 -0400
Subject: Mesh (type) networking
In-Reply-To: <4A660255.2050005-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com>	 <20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>	 <4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com> <200907211146.01907.amarjan@pobox.com>	 <4A65E55D.4030109@the-wire.com> <4A65E8A3.1020507@alteeve.com> <92ee967a0907211041n50dde46eib5120333d2df18c9@mail.gmail.com> <4A660255.2050005@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <4A660F2E.1070907@dinamis.com>

On 21/07/09 02:00 PM, Madison Kelly wrote:
> In principle, it would work. In practice...
> 
> Let's look at potential legal pitfalls. Let's say someone jumps on and
> starts downloading illegal material. Who is at fault?


How about the person downloading the "illegal" material? This is the
usual refuge of the monopolists who, in an attempt to hide the real
reasons for their anti-competitive behaviour, conjure up terrorists,
pedophiles, and "pirates" behind every bush. It's a general rule of PR
that if you can get your opponents to adopt your language, you've won.
Let's not fall into that trap.


> The node owner
> will catch flak and possibly get shut down. The only way around this is
> to require people to sign up, but then the node owner becomes a
> mini-ISP. What then happens if the gov't passes data retention laws like
> they're trying to do?


That sounds like a "win" to me if those stupid data retention laws can
be bypassed so easily.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 18:58:03 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:58:03 -0400
Subject: Bell.ca website access very slow
In-Reply-To: <loom.20090719T223832-347-eS7Uydv5nfjZ+VzJOa5vwg@public.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20090719T223832-347@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20090721185803.GG2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 10:39:48PM +0000, Peter wrote:
> I have tried this with various browsers and os's and even from other accounts,
> it's always extremely slow. Is there some canuck tweak that can fix this or ?

I think bell.ca is probably one of the worlds worst examples of what
happens when you use java servlets and let idiots program stuff.  I see
some places where hitting a button causes it to pass data through about
a dozen different servlets before you get to the next page.  That is
just rediculous.

Turning each form submit into a dozen form submits clearly has to put
some load on both the client and the server.  Clearly the site was just
built by clueless programmers.  I don't even want to imagine how many
servers they are using to offer that level of service.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 18:57:38 2009
From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:57:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fedora question
In-Reply-To: <200907201701.00306.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907201701.00306.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907211455120.10839@imac2006.local>

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009, bob 295 wrote:
> I have never been able to open a TCP/IP port on Fedora 9. 
> ie.  I have a piece of server code that I want to put on port 
> 50000, how does one tell Fedora 9 that this port is available?

Don't have Fedora box handy, but why you think you need to tell 
Fedora the port is available?

I believe for non well-known port, other than that make sure the 
firewall did not block it, as soon as the server is up, you 
should be able to connect to it.

-- 
    ____  ____  ____  ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo
   /___  /___/ /___/ /___      http://www.arifsaha.com/
  ____/ /     /   / ____/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 19:08:40 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:08:40 -0400
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907211434260.6576-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca> <4A5B7873.70302@utoronto.ca> <20090713204416.GV15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907211434260.6576@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20090721190840.GH2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 02:52:23PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> | From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>
> 
> | On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 02:09:55PM -0400, Jamon Camisso wrote:
> 
> | > How about a $99 SheevaPlug on a vlan?
> 
> Cute!
> 
> | Much better version for that (and many other) job(s).
> | http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/p-24-openrd-client-openrd-client-board-with-enclosure.aspx
> 
> Better, but more than twice the price.  That price is too close to the
> price of even more capable boxes.

Ehm, that's debateable.  That thing has some serious capabilities in a
very low power consumption device.

> Another possibility is the PC Engine ALIX 2D3: C$135 (+ C$15 for a
> case).  500MHz Geode (i386), 256K RAM, CF socket, MiniPCI socket, 3 ethernet
> (100MHz, I think), 2 USB (I think).
> http://www.xagyl.com/store/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=2&sort=&sort_direction=&page=1

That would be much slower than the above device.  The ram would be 256M
not K of course on the geode.

> One of Dell's deals of the day is the Linksys WRT160NL for C$90.
> Close, but no cigar: not yet supported by OpenWRT, but it appears
> possible.  A lot like the WRT54GS which might be discontinued.
> Improvement: has 802.11n (which isn't yet a final standard, as far as
> I know).  This router has 8G flash, 32G RAM, and a USB port -- better
> than the WRT54GL.  The standard firmware is Linux-based (2.4 kernel!).

Wow 8G flash and 32G ram for $90.  I gotta get one of those. :)

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 19:11:02 2009
From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:11:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IMAP sync: offlineimap or mailsync or isync?
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907211459200.10839@imac2006.local>

Hi!

I am looking into IMAP accounts synchronization, and while 
before I thought there is only offlineimap, I found several 
tools:
  - offlineimap, in python 
<http://software.complete.org/software/projects/show/offlineimap>
  - mailsync, c-client based <http://mailsync.sourceforge.net/>
  - isync / mbsync <http://isync.sourceforge.net/>

Furthermore, there are tools such as imapsync and imapcopy, but 
these seems to only facilitate one way synchronization.

Have you ever know how these tools compare to each other?

Thanks!

-- 
    ____  ____  ____  ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo
   /___  /___/ /___/ /___      http://www.arifsaha.com/
  ____/ /     /   / ____/
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 19:15:28 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:15:28 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907211049t277f4117l219ba3440efc067a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248129622.2081.1325973271@webmail.messagingengine.com> <b8f780870907211049t277f4117l219ba3440efc067a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6613D0.9010404@telly.org>

I don't see any ads on the BBC site -- or most others.

Adblock Plus is (or if not, it should be) your friend.

- Evan

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From tug.williams-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 21 19:49:42 2009
From: tug.williams-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (tug)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:49:42 -0400
Subject: Anyone observed content change through Rogers?
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907211049t277f4117l219ba3440efc067a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248129622.2081.1325973271@webmail.messagingengine.com> <b8f780870907211049t277f4117l219ba3440efc067a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A661BD6.8060602@gmail.com>

William Muriithi wrote:
>
>
>     While I understand their reasoning in theory, I'm not at all
>     convinced that this is a good idea in practice. From a world
>     perspective, BBC News isn't just any news service; since the
>     halcyon days of shortwave radio it's also effectively been a part
>     of the UK's foreign relations, a way of promoting Britain and the
>     "British way" abroad for relatively little cost compared to the
>     dividends in worldwide respect and goodwill. Seen this way, it
>     might have made more sense to keep the BBC News site free of
>     advertising for the same reason the BBC World Service (as far as I
>     know) never carried advertising: advertisements can blunt the
>     impact of the actual content, and have the potential to reduce the
>     worldwide impression of the BBC's quality and impartiality.
>
> Sadly, that is very true.  Have not been at their site since that day. 
> Just found it too repugnant - may be they had entrenched too much 
> expectation on them. Anyway, may finally register for washington post 
> access,  another site I stopped visiting couple of years back after 
> they enforced registration.
>

Having been brought up with only the BBC as a source of broadcast media 
- we were not permitted to watch ITV because they had  adverts - I fear 
I never learnt the ability to ignore adverts (or at least the ability to 
*believe* I can ignore adverts). Personally I can't use the internet 
without AdblockPlus, and even "innocent" things (like spinning buttons) 
are like headlights to a rabbit, and I have to add them to my block list.

I wonder how much revenue the Beeb gets from adverts, or whether it's 
more to reduce the indignation of those back in Blighty fearing they're 
paying so that other people can get something for nothing...

Tug
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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 22 02:07:50 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:07:50 -0400
Subject: dd-wrt root vulnerability
Message-ID: <4A667476.8010906@utoronto.ca>

theregister has an article about a root vulnerability on recent dd-wrt 
builds:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/21/critical_ddwrt_router_vuln/

 From the article:

"The bug resides in DD-WRT's hyper text transfer protocol daemon, which 
runs as root. Because the httpd doesn't sanitize user-supplied input, 
it's vulnerable to remote command injection. While the httpd doesn't 
listen on the outbound interface, attackers can easily access it using 
CSRF (cross-site request forgery) techniques."

For people who have enabled remote httpd access, it's probably much worse.

Jamon
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 22 07:33:58 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 03:33:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: tiny firewall boxes
In-Reply-To: <20090721190840.GH2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A5B7560.6090902@tmis.ca> <4A5B7873.70302@utoronto.ca> <20090713204416.GV15752@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907211434260.6576@redclaw.mimosa.com> <20090721190840.GH2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907220332140.6576@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>

| On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 02:52:23PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

| > Another possibility is the PC Engine ALIX 2D3: C$135 (+ C$15 for a
| > case).  500MHz Geode (i386), 256K RAM, CF socket, MiniPCI socket, 3 ethernet
| > (100MHz, I think), 2 USB (I think).
| > http://www.xagyl.com/store/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=2&sort=&sort_direction=&page=1
| 
| That would be much slower than the above device.  The ram would be 256M
| not K of course on the geode.
| 
| > One of Dell's deals of the day is the Linksys WRT160NL for C$90.
| > Close, but no cigar: not yet supported by OpenWRT, but it appears
| > possible.  A lot like the WRT54GS which might be discontinued.
| > Improvement: has 802.11n (which isn't yet a final standard, as far as
| > I know).  This router has 8G flash, 32G RAM, and a USB port -- better
| > than the WRT54GL.  The standard firmware is Linux-based (2.4 kernel!).
| 
| Wow 8G flash and 32G ram for $90.  I gotta get one of those. :)

Wow.  I was certainly fast and loose with scale factors.
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From mnativid-G1DYhSM1WHTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 22 08:02:16 2009
From: mnativid-G1DYhSM1WHTQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Mervin Natividad)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 04:02:16 -0400
Subject: AUTO: Mervin Natividad is out of the office (returning 23/07/2009)
Message-ID: <OFF6B6F8DF.F66DEBE6-ON852575FB.002C2731-852575FB.002C2731@ca.ibm.com>



I am out of the office until 23/07/2009.




Note: This is an automated response to your message  "[TLUG]: dd-wrt root
vulnerability" sent on 7/21/09 22:07:50.

This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away.
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 22 14:06:58 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:06:58 -0400
Subject: SCO vs. Linux: SCO funds for SCO investor
Message-ID: <4A671D02.8040104@rogers.com>

Things are really getting interesting.
http://www.h-online.com/open/SCO-vs-Linux-SCO-funds-for-SCO-investor--/news/113814

Check groklaw.net for all the gory details.

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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 22 16:25:22 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:25:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: new kernel newbie column up at linux.com
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907221222320.23645@localhost>


  written under some time pressure really early this morning -- i
wonder how badly i pooched it:

  http://cli.gs/q5XXS9

rday

p.s.  there's a comments section there for a reason -- feel free to
share your thoughts.  even criticism is welcome.

--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
"Kernel Newbie Corner" column @ linux.com:          http://cli.gs/WG6WYX
========================================================================
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From inconnu-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 22 17:20:42 2009
From: inconnu-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org (Slack Rat)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:20:42 +0200
Subject: What's happening here?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907201355470.10839-aZibgg63UJu44ywRPIzf9A@public.gmane.org> (S. P. Arif Sahari Wibowo's message of "Mon\, 20 Jul 2009 13\:57\:43 -0400 \(EDT\)")
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907200158210.25630@sheppard.torfree.net>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.0907201355470.10839@imac2006.local>
Message-ID: <87r5w8ljmd.fsf@darkstar.azurservers.com>

S P Arif Sahari Wibowo a ?crit profondement:

| 
| Except for the first example, the other ones seems to came from
| msnbot-*.search.msn.com to port 80, so seemingly they are from MS web
| crawler. Can you think any reason a web crawler think there is a
| website at your address?

On second thoughts, the problem is inherited.

I have only had this IP number for a few weeks and the problem seems to
have started as soon as I commenced using it.

There is absolutely no reason why Microsoft would believe that there is
anything on port 80.

In fact there is, but it is not used or advertized.

-- 
Slackrat

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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 01:57:05 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:57:05 -0400
Subject: OT: Copyright Consultation Launches: Time For Canadians To Speak Out
Message-ID: <6679a2892598e267b41b9a3db39c1a97@teksavvy.com>

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4173/125/

http://copyright.econsultation.ca/

and Copyright Consultation Running On Open Source Software :-)
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4175/196/

Cheers

Meng
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 02:34:44 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:34:44 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>

Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:

  http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/

All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...


Colin McGregor
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 04:03:06 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:03:06 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
>
> ?http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
>
> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
>
>
> Colin McGregor

I Love this =) thanks for sharing!!!

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 04:43:37 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:43:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Windows-1252 is not proprietary?
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907230041400.5292@redclaw.mimosa.com>

http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#character-encodings-0

W3C HTML5 draft says that browsers must support Windows-1252.  Is this 
new?  It is news to me.  Sad news.
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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 11:53:56 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:53:56 +0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>   
>> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
>>
>>  http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
>>
>> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
>>
>>
>> Colin McGregor
>>     
>
> I Love this =) thanks for sharing!!!
>
>   
You people there are getting like monkeys.

Sure, I like the idea itself. The intentions are wonderful.

Unfortunately, monkeys only could like rap. The disintegration of moral 
values that goes through within this society has no equal through out 
the globe.

zb,



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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 12:13:39 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:13:39 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A684F54.8070907-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 07:53, Zbigniew Koziol<softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>
> You people there are getting like monkeys.
>
> Sure, I like the idea itself. The intentions are wonderful.
>
> Unfortunately, monkeys only could like rap. The disintegration of moral
> values that goes through within this society has no equal through out the
> globe.
>
> zb,
>

That was extremely rude, if you're alluding to black people being
monkeys because they like rap I take great offence to that, I am black
but hate rap, I really think you need to be removed from this list
permanently; and never allowed at a TLUG event again!


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 12:32:18 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:32:18 +0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com>

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 07:53, Zbigniew Koziol<softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>   
>> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>
>> You people there are getting like monkeys.
>>
>> Sure, I like the idea itself. The intentions are wonderful.
>>
>> Unfortunately, monkeys only could like rap. The disintegration of moral
>> values that goes through within this society has no equal through out the
>> globe.
>>
>> zb,
>>
>>     
>
> That was extremely rude, if you're alluding to black people being
> monkeys because they like rap I take great offence to that, I am black
> but hate rap, I really think you need to be removed from this list
> permanently; and never allowed at a TLUG event again!
>
>
>   
It was rude. It was rude against not color of skin but against of 
degenerating mentality of most of people watching TV and having their 
views on the world shaped by media.

It was not against blacks at all.

I consider now many whites like monkeys. Are blacks monkeys? I doubt so. 
There was no reference in my mail to color of skin at all.

Are all blacks like monkeys? I would have to be insane to say so. Are 
most of whites like monkeys? Oh, well... many are.

So, if you you think that I should be removed from this mailing list 
because I have my own views (that are not related to Linux at all) than 
please continue to argue for that.

zb.










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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 12:52:09 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:52:09 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A684F54.8070907-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A685CF9.7040003@alteeve.com>

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Colin 
>> McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>  
>>> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
>>>
>>>  http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
>>>
>>> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
>>>
>>>
>>> Colin McGregor
>>>     
>>
>> I Love this =) thanks for sharing!!!
>>
>>   
> You people there are getting like monkeys.
> 
> Sure, I like the idea itself. The intentions are wonderful.
> 
> Unfortunately, monkeys only could like rap. The disintegration of moral 
> values that goes through within this society has no equal through out 
> the globe.
> 
> zb,

That is probably one of the most rude and uncalled for posts I've seen 
on TLUG.

Whether you were eluding to blacks or not, it is a genre popular with 
them and the allusion to "monkeys" is extremely distasteful and ignorant.

As for morals; They are always in flux. 10 years ago in the US, it was 
still illegal to even be in a gay relationship in many states. 60 years 
ago and it was "immoral" and illegal for interracial marriages. During 
World War II it was perfectly moral to intern Japanese Canadians. Before 
then it was immoral for women to vote.

Beyond morality, a genre itself can not be held to account because of a 
popular opinion expressed by practitioners of it. I used to have no 
interest in rap and hip hop until I heard some very good, very positive 
songs. Listen to CBC for a while and you'll hear plenty of examples.

I think that nothing shy of a full redaction of those comments and a 
sincere acknowledgment of how rude your comments will do.

Madi
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From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 12:52:46 2009
From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:52:46 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A685852.1040300-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
	 <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f735edd00907230552w14e7230fnf2e12a783764e035@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Zbigniew Koziol<softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Michael Lauzon wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 07:53, Zbigniew Koziol<softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>>
>>> You people there are getting like monkeys.
>>>
>>> Sure, I like the idea itself. The intentions are wonderful.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, monkeys only could like rap. The disintegration of moral
>>> values that goes through within this society has no equal through out the
>>> globe.
>>>
>>> zb,
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That was extremely rude, if you're alluding to black people being
>> monkeys because they like rap I take great offence to that, I am black
>> but hate rap, I really think you need to be removed from this list
>> permanently; and never allowed at a TLUG event again!
>>
>>
>>
>
> It was rude. It was rude against not color of skin but against of
> degenerating mentality of most of people watching TV and having their views
> on the world shaped by media.
>
> It was not against blacks at all.
>
> I consider now many whites like monkeys. Are blacks monkeys? I doubt so.
> There was no reference in my mail to color of skin at all.
>
> Are all blacks like monkeys? I would have to be insane to say so. Are most
> of whites like monkeys? Oh, well... many are.
>
> So, if you you think that I should be removed from this mailing list because
> I have my own views (that are not related to Linux at all) than please
> continue to argue for that.
>
> zb.
>

Sorry zb. Go out into the street and ask any five people's reactions
to your statement that "monkeys only could like rap". See whether you
have the time to advance the remainder of your argument.

Refering to people as monkeys in this society packs a great deal of
explosive power. Perhaps we can assume the best from you and put it
down to ignorance.


... Aside from which, this is not a forum dedicated to rubbishing
people's musical tastes. Go find someplace else.

M.
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 12:54:14 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:54:14 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A685852.1040300-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> So, if you you think that I should be removed from this mailing list 
> because I have my own views (that are not related to Linux at all) than 
> please continue to argue for that.
> 
> zb.

Do you honestly know so little about how blacks were oppressed and degraded?

I don't think I or Michael are asking for you to leave. Only to 
acknowledge the callousness and inappropriateness of your comments.

Madi
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 13:00:58 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:00:58 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A685F0A.20802@alteeve.com>

Colin McGregor wrote:
> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
> 
>   http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
> 
> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
> 
> 
> Colin McGregor

That was very clever! Thanks for sharing!

Madi
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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 13:10:22 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:10:22 +0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A685D76.4060609-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com>

Madison Kelly wrote:
> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>> So, if you you think that I should be removed from this mailing list 
>> because I have my own views (that are not related to Linux at all) 
>> than please continue to argue for that.
>>
>> zb.
>
> Do you honestly know so little about how blacks were oppressed and 
> degraded?
>
Why I would care? I do not oppress anyone.

> I don't think I or Michael are asking for you to leave. Only to 
> acknowledge the callousness and inappropriateness of your comments.
>

There is nothing wrong in expressing own views, like mine. I want to 
show rather by my provoking comments that the society went too far in 
the wrong direction. I am not a racist, not a fascist, nothing like that 
at all. I have some remains of my brain still in my my mind and that is 
my guilt.

zb.

> Madi
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 13:17:15 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:17:15 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A68613E.3020103-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>



Zbigniew Koziol wrote:

> There is nothing wrong in expressing own views, like mine. I want to
> show rather by my provoking comments that the society went too far in
> the wrong direction. I am not a racist, not a fascist, nothing like that
> at all. I have some remains of my brain still in my my mind and that is
> my guilt.
> 
> zb.
> 

There is when those non-factual views are (or should) be know to be
hurtful to other people. It's called an insult, and in polite society we
keep such views to ourselves. I'm glad to see others in this thread are
practicing concept quite well, when I am sure there are strong
temptations to do otherwise. Good on them.

/darryl
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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 13:22:43 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:22:43 +0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A6862DB.7090304-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com>

Darryl Moore wrote:
> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>
>   
>> There is nothing wrong in expressing own views, like mine. I want to
>> show rather by my provoking comments that the society went too far in
>> the wrong direction. I am not a racist, not a fascist, nothing like that
>> at all. I have some remains of my brain still in my my mind and that is
>> my guilt.
>>
>> zb.
>>
>>     
>
> There is when those non-factual views are (or should) be know to be
> hurtful to other people. It's called an insult, and in polite society we
> keep such views to ourselves. I'm glad to see others in this thread are
> practicing concept quite well, when I am sure there are strong
> temptations to do otherwise. Good on them.
>   

For  God sake, did you all went insane all around?

I am myself a total ignorant on music. I have no idea what rap means. I 
had no idea that rap, as it seems, is somehow related to blacks.

And now you all jump on me like crazy dogs, not even attempting to 
discuss the merit of my words.

All this just support my original thought that this society went too far 
in brain washing, in wrong direction.

zb.


> /darryl
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>   

--
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 13:34:32 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:34:32 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A686423.6000504-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6866E8.1050908@alteeve.com>

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> For  God sake, did you all went insane all around?
> 
> I am myself a total ignorant on music. I have no idea what rap means. I 
> had no idea that rap, as it seems, is somehow related to blacks.
> 
> And now you all jump on me like crazy dogs, not even attempting to 
> discuss the merit of my words.
> 
> All this just support my original thought that this society went too far 
> in brain washing, in wrong direction.
> 
> zb.

Honest question; How much do you know about recent (north) American history?

As for our reaction;

When you (appear to) come out swinging, you can't act surprised when 
other people swing back before asking questions.

Madi
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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 13:35:21 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:35:21 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A686423.6000504-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>



Zbigniew Koziol wrote:

> 
> For  God sake, did you all went insane all around?
> 
> I am myself a total ignorant on music. I have no idea what rap means. I
> had no idea that rap, as it seems, is somehow related to blacks.
> 
> And now you all jump on me like crazy dogs, not even attempting to
> discuss the merit of my words.
> 
> All this just support my original thought that this society went too far
> in brain washing, in wrong direction.
> 
> zb.

zb, here is a little light reading for you. It is not that society has
gone too far. It is that you appear to be woefully and willfully
ignorant of many things.


http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/02/blacks-as-monke.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music
--
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How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 13:43:07 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:43:07 +0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A6866E8.1050908-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A6866E8.1050908@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <4A6868EB.7060604@gmail.com>

Madison Kelly wrote:
> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>> For  God sake, did you all went insane all around?
>>
>> I am myself a total ignorant on music. I have no idea what rap means. 
>> I had no idea that rap, as it seems, is somehow related to blacks.
>>
>> And now you all jump on me like crazy dogs, not even attempting to 
>> discuss the merit of my words.
>>
>> All this just support my original thought that this society went too 
>> far in brain washing, in wrong direction.
>>
>> zb.
>
> Honest question; How much do you know about recent (north) American 
> history?
>
I know enough. Believe me. But the question is entirely irrelevant to my 
first post.
> As for our reaction;
>
> When you (appear to) come out swinging, you can't act surprised when 
> other people swing back before asking questions.

I am,unfortunately, not surprised.

That is, unfortunately, my way of living - no one will come close 
because no one will understand.
I am however not a conformist. These will just adjust to the society. I 
pay a huge, really huge prise, by my own life for that not conformist
attitude.

zb.
>
> Madi

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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 13:46:45 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:46:45 +0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A686719.5080106-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com>

Darryl Moore wrote:
> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>
>   
>> For  God sake, did you all went insane all around?
>>
>> I am myself a total ignorant on music. I have no idea what rap means. I
>> had no idea that rap, as it seems, is somehow related to blacks.
>>
>> And now you all jump on me like crazy dogs, not even attempting to
>> discuss the merit of my words.
>>
>> All this just support my original thought that this society went too far
>> in brain washing, in wrong direction.
>>
>> zb.
>>     
>
> zb, here is a little light reading for you. It is not that society has
> gone too far. It is that you appear to be woefully and willfully
> ignorant of many things.
>
>
> http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/02/blacks-as-monke.html
>   

It seems that repeating 500 times that I did not refer to blacks will 
still remain not sufficient.

I am used to say: "the problem is in your own mind!" It seems that no 
one does understand that saying...

zb.


--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 13:58:45 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:58:45 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A6868EB.7060604-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A6866E8.1050908@alteeve.com> <4A6868EB.7060604@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A686C95.6060707@alteeve.com>

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>> Honest question; How much do you know about recent (north) American 
>> history?
>>
> I know enough. Believe me. But the question is entirely irrelevant to my 
> first post.

Actually, it's entirely relevant.

Did you read the links that Darryl posted? They give a lot better 
insight into why it is relevant than I can. Let me try to give it to you 
in a nutshell though;

Rap and Hip Hop originally came from the black community and are still 
probably the largest consumer of this style of music. So you can say 
that, to an extent, Rap and Hip Hop are "black music".

Traditionally, blacks were compared to primates as a way of showing that 
they are racially inferior to whites. This was particularly true during 
the civil rights movement and after the end to slavery.

Like the noose as a reminded of lynching, comparisons to primates is a 
particularly charged issue. This is why American history is relevant.

> I am,unfortunately, not surprised.
> 
> That is, unfortunately, my way of living - no one will come close 
> because no one will understand.
> I am however not a conformist. These will just adjust to the society. I 
> pay a huge, really huge prise, by my own life for that not conformist
> attitude.
> 
> zb.

Diplomacy; The art of making a point without making an enemy.

If you want to break it down like this, fine. We are a pack animal. For 
the pack to work, we have to think about the other members of our pack. 
If you go around pissing on them, you can't be surprised when the pack 
turns on you.

So with that out of the way, lets drop the sticks and talk, like you 
would like to.

Why do you think rap and hip hop is causing the "disintegration of moral 
values that goes through within this society has no equal through out 
the globe"? Particularly in light of your comment: "I am myself a total 
ignorant on music. I have no idea what rap means."

Madi
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 14:00:35 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:00:35 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A6869C5.5010309-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca> <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>



Zbigniew Koziol wrote:

> It seems that repeating 500 times that I did not refer to blacks will
> still remain not sufficient.
> 
> I am used to say: "the problem is in your own mind!" It seems that no
> one does understand that saying...
> 
> zb.


Quite right. It is not what you intended by what you said that matters.
It is how it is likely to be received by other people that counts. The
reason for my sending you the links I did was so that you would
understand why your remarks would be understood as they were.

If you choose to ignore that and continue to utter statements that you
know will offend people, and offer nothing that could be considered
insightful at the same time, then you are simply being callous.

I'm not sure what principle you think you are standing up for. The right
to insult others? Hardly seems worth being (rightly) shunned by society.

/darryl
--
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From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 14:33:19 2009
From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:33:19 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A685CF9.7040003-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
	<4A685CF9.7040003@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <20090723103319.0e592da3.tleslie@tcn.net>

I actually didn't make a monkey<->black relationship myself,
maybe its just a age, local thing,
but, since he said
"You people there...."  
not best grammar,
but referring to the "people" responding to the post,
from TLUG, who as a group, are very non-black (as a general stat)
i could in no way take this post as in any ways implying this negative correlation.
But it has made for interesting morning entertainment on the virtual lynching of zb :)
[and by lynching i do not make any correlation to the lynching common in the
southern states in the days of men wearing silly white bed sheets and pointy white hats, targeted at blacks, and 
therefore I am not inferring that zb is black, but rather referring to the general act of lynching - just to be clear]

-tl

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:52:09 -0400
Madison Kelly <linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> > Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Colin 
> >> McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >>  
> >>> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
> >>>
> >>>  http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
> >>>
> >>> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Colin McGregor
> >>>     
> >>
> >> I Love this =) thanks for sharing!!!
> >>
> >>   
> > You people there are getting like monkeys.
> > 
> > Sure, I like the idea itself. The intentions are wonderful.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, monkeys only could like rap. The disintegration of moral 
> > values that goes through within this society has no equal through out 
> > the globe.
> > 
> > zb,
> 
> That is probably one of the most rude and uncalled for posts I've seen 
> on TLUG.
> 
> Whether you were eluding to blacks or not, it is a genre popular with 
> them and the allusion to "monkeys" is extremely distasteful and ignorant.
> 
> As for morals; They are always in flux. 10 years ago in the US, it was 
> still illegal to even be in a gay relationship in many states. 60 years 
> ago and it was "immoral" and illegal for interracial marriages. During 
> World War II it was perfectly moral to intern Japanese Canadians. Before 
> then it was immoral for women to vote.
> 
> Beyond morality, a genre itself can not be held to account because of a 
> popular opinion expressed by practitioners of it. I used to have no 
> interest in rap and hip hop until I heard some very good, very positive 
> songs. Listen to CBC for a while and you'll hear plenty of examples.
> 
> I think that nothing shy of a full redaction of those comments and a 
> sincere acknowledgment of how rude your comments will do.
> 
> Madi
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


-- 
ted leslie <tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 14:29:45 2009
From: jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:29:45 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A686423.6000504-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP87C473A9B0C835299B2050DA180@phx.gbl>

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 05:22:43PM +0400, Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> ...
> And now you all jump on me like crazy dogs, not even attempting to 
> discuss the merit of my words.

I see no merit at all in the statement "Unfortunately, monkeys only 
could like rap."  You then went off on a tangent about moral decay as if 
the two were related, but failed to elaborate.

> All this just support my original thought that this society went too far 
> in brain washing, in wrong direction.

No, we just have our own ideas, different from yours.

JV


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From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 14:30:32 2009
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:30:32 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A686D03.2050104-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
	 <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>
	 <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>
	 <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>
	 <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com>  <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>

On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 10:00 -0400, Darryl Moore wrote:
> > I am used to say: "the problem is in your own mind!" It seems that no
> > one does understand that saying...
>
> Quite right. It is not what you intended by what you said that matters.
> It is how it is likely to be received by other people that counts. The

So, everyone isn't really looking for an apology for zb's views.
They're asking for an apology to the effect that he is sorry that
everyone misunderstood him?

I regularly call a bunch of my children "lil monkeys".  I thought that
they act like monkeys.  Now, I think that maybe I'm a racist.  ;)


> If you choose to ignore that and continue to utter statements that you
> know will offend people, and offer nothing that could be considered
> insightful at the same time, then you are simply being callous.

This is the best point anyone has made so far.  Despite the fact that zb
isn't continuing to utter the statement (I only saw him say it once,
then went into defensive mode), I think the point to make is that he may
want to restructure his statement about his view of the quality of rap
music from "only monkeys could like rap" to something else like "rap is
shit".  Even if only to avoid getting the crap beat out of him someday.

Although, the other thing no one picked up is that zb admits to knowing
nothing about music.  In that case, zb should just shut up on the
matter.  As Samuel Clemens didn't say:

   "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open
    it and remove all doubt."


> I'm not sure what principle you think you are standing up for. The right
> to insult others? Hardly seems worth being (rightly) shunned by society.

As a self-proclaimed non-PC-ist, you don't want to go to far the other
way, either.  I'm comfortable trying to maintain it at "shocking" and
"unpredictable".

PS - Is the Coder Girl song link worth clicking on?  Or just a schleppy
amateurish offering similar in the difference between Dilbert and
Userfriendly?

--matt

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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 14:38:37 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:38:37 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <1248359432.15254.12.camel-EWWT1lLJxm2ye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>	 <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>	 <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>	 <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>	 <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com>  <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca> <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <4A6875ED.4080304@moores.ca>



G. Matthew Rice wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 10:00 -0400, Darryl Moore wrote:
>>> I am used to say: "the problem is in your own mind!" It seems that no
>>> one does understand that saying...
>> Quite right. It is not what you intended by what you said that matters.
>> It is how it is likely to be received by other people that counts. The
> 
> So, everyone isn't really looking for an apology for zb's views.
> They're asking for an apology to the effect that he is sorry that
> everyone misunderstood him?
> 
> I regularly call a bunch of my children "lil monkeys".  I thought that
> they act like monkeys.  Now, I think that maybe I'm a racist.  ;)
> 
> 


I'm very sorry that your kids are so thin skinned that, coming from you,
this would likely be received as an insult.

I would work on trying to reduce their sensitivity to such things. At
the same time, perhaps a little self confidence building would be good
for the tykes.

In the meantime if you know that calling them such things offends them,
then indeed, you should refrain. :-)


--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 14:49:38 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:49:38 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907230749s1d62304me48ced89edf72a3f@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/23/09, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
>>
>>  http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
>>
>> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
>>
>>
>> Colin McGregor
>
> I Love this =) thanks for sharing!!!

You are of course most welcome.

But here I am sitting in ... quasi-awe at how what for me was a quick
light-weight diversion has exploded into a massive debate on this
list...

There is so little in the way of geek humour compared to many other
trades / professions (did you hear the one about the lawyer who ...).
So, when someone does a cute / clever bit about geeks (especially
women geeks) I think it should be promoted / encouraged.

The fact that the musically style might not be your favourite (and I
will admit rap is not among my favourite musical genres (but then, I
am also not a big country music fan)) is quite secondary.

In other words folks, like the song, don't like it, or whatever, I
don't care. But please don't bring race into this picture...

Colin McGregor

> --
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 15:07:13 2009
From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:07:13 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907230749s1d62304me48ced89edf72a3f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	<f646b91f0907230749s1d62304me48ced89edf72a3f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090723110713.d2353914.tleslie@tcn.net>

speaking of women geeks,
i was listening to a 2-3 week old TLLTS  (the linux linc tech show),
podcast yesterday,
and the guest was on because (at least in part) to the fact they are a female geek,

the guest was  "Jeri Ellsworth"
and honestly , she is probably the most techy (not going to say geeky, as she would actaully probably have issue with that),
female I have ever seen.
she has a electron microscope in her basement, and does silcon IC experimentation/creation - for fun!!
and her first job out of school was building 400hp race cars,
and she built pipe bombs for fun as a kid (ok, so we all did that),
but it was a good podcast, one worth checking out, as are all the TLLTS podcasts,
oh, but she doesn't use linux at home :(

-tl

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:49:38 -0400
Colin McGregor <colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On 7/23/09, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> > wrote:
> >> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
> >>
> >>  http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
> >>
> >> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
> >>
> >>
> >> Colin McGregor
> >
> > I Love this =) thanks for sharing!!!
> 
> You are of course most welcome.
> 
> But here I am sitting in ... quasi-awe at how what for me was a quick
> light-weight diversion has exploded into a massive debate on this
> list...
> 
> There is so little in the way of geek humour compared to many other
> trades / professions (did you hear the one about the lawyer who ...).
> So, when someone does a cute / clever bit about geeks (especially
> women geeks) I think it should be promoted / encouraged.
> 
> The fact that the musically style might not be your favourite (and I
> will admit rap is not among my favourite musical genres (but then, I
> am also not a big country music fan)) is quite secondary.
> 
> In other words folks, like the song, don't like it, or whatever, I
> don't care. But please don't bring race into this picture...
> 
> Colin McGregor
> 
> > --
> > Kind Regards,
> > Rajinder Yadav
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


-- 
ted leslie <tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 15:01:23 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:01:23 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A686C95.6060707-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A6866E8.1050908@alteeve.com> <4A6868EB.7060604@gmail.com> <4A686C95.6060707@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <20090723150122.GI2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 09:58:45AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote:
> Actually, it's entirely relevant.
>
> Did you read the links that Darryl posted? They give a lot better  
> insight into why it is relevant than I can. Let me try to give it to you  
> in a nutshell though;
>
> Rap and Hip Hop originally came from the black community and are still  
> probably the largest consumer of this style of music. So you can say  
> that, to an extent, Rap and Hip Hop are "black music".

Seems rather popular with lots of white people too, and there are white
musicians that do rap as well.  If you want racism to go away, then stop
considering black people as a distinct group of people, and stop looking
for racism everywhere where it might not have been intended.  I thought
the post about rap and monkeys was somewhat rude perhaps, but I never
saw anything racist in it at all.  The idea that it could have refered
to black people never crossed my mind.  I read it as a post by someone
that doesn't like rap and happens to think monkeys are stupid animals.
That's just someone's opinion.

It's usually very easy to be offended by things when you try to find
ways to be offended by everything.

> Traditionally, blacks were compared to primates as a way of showing that  
> they are racially inferior to whites. This was particularly true during  
> the civil rights movement and after the end to slavery.

Ehm, but humans are primates, so how can being compared against primates
be a problem when you already are one?

> Like the noose as a reminded of lynching, comparisons to primates is a  
> particularly charged issue. This is why American history is relevant.
>
> Diplomacy; The art of making a point without making an enemy.

Isn't diplomacy about getting what you want while making the other side
think they are getting what they want?

> If you want to break it down like this, fine. We are a pack animal. For  
> the pack to work, we have to think about the other members of our pack.  
> If you go around pissing on them, you can't be surprised when the pack  
> turns on you.

But pack animals often fight internally to determine seniority and
leadership.

> So with that out of the way, lets drop the sticks and talk, like you  
> would like to.
>
> Why do you think rap and hip hop is causing the "disintegration of moral  
> values that goes through within this society has no equal through out  
> the globe"? Particularly in light of your comment: "I am myself a total  
> ignorant on music. I have no idea what rap means."

Personally I just find most rap to be very annoying noise.  There are
exceptions, but they are rare.  Of course most music is crap, with the
occational good thing coming out of it.  Why should rap be an exception.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 15:19:52 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:19:52 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <20090723150122.GI2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A6866E8.1050908@alteeve.com> <4A6868EB.7060604@gmail.com> <4A686C95.6060707@alteeve.com> <20090723150122.GI2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4A687F98.8060201@moores.ca>



Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 09:58:45AM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote:
>> Actually, it's entirely relevant.
>>
>> Did you read the links that Darryl posted? They give a lot better  
>> insight into why it is relevant than I can. Let me try to give it to you  
>> in a nutshell though;
>>
>> Rap and Hip Hop originally came from the black community and are still  
>> probably the largest consumer of this style of music. So you can say  
>> that, to an extent, Rap and Hip Hop are "black music".
> 
> Seems rather popular with lots of white people too, and there are white
> musicians that do rap as well.  If you want racism to go away, then stop
> considering black people as a distinct group of people, and stop looking
> for racism everywhere where it might not have been intended.  I thought
> the post about rap and monkeys was somewhat rude perhaps, but I never
> saw anything racist in it at all.  The idea that it could have refered
> to black people never crossed my mind.  I read it as a post by someone
> that doesn't like rap and happens to think monkeys are stupid animals.
> That's just someone's opinion.
> 

Truthfully, it didn't cross come across my mind that way either when I
first read it. But then, I'm just an old white guy. However when the
first response pointed this out, I was certainly able to see how others
might be offended by it. If it had been my post, at that point I would
have apologized for my unintentional slight.

On a related note. I was listening to an interview on Radio 1 a couple
of weeks ago with a person who wrote a book about the First Nations
residential schools mess. One of the things I learned then is that a lot
of First Nations people are offended by the term Indian when applied to
them. I was not aware of this until then. As a result when speaking to
people, especially ones who self identify as First Nations, I will in
the future be very careful how I use that word. Nothing to do with
racism, per se, simply respect for other peoples feelings.

/darryl
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 15:40:35 2009
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:40:35 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A6875ED.4080304-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
	 <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>
	 <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>
	 <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>
	 <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com>  <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>
	 <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com> <4A6875ED.4080304@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <1248363635.10679.2.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>

On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 10:38 -0400, Darryl Moore wrote:
> > I regularly call a bunch of my children "lil monkeys".  I thought that
> > they act like monkeys.  Now, I think that maybe I'm a racist.  ;)
> 
> In the meantime if you know that calling them such things offends them,
> then indeed, you should refrain. :-)

LOL.  Nah, they think it's funny.  Maybe, just maybe, they're racist,
too.

--matt

--
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 16:07:28 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:07:28 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907230749s1d62304me48ced89edf72a3f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	 <f646b91f0907230749s1d62304me48ced89edf72a3f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907230907s7e162b51n6d8927b4d7053993@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/23 Colin McGregor <colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
> On 7/23/09, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>> wrote:
>>> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
>>>
>>> ?http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
>>>
>>> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
>>>
>>>
>>> Colin McGregor
>>
>> I Love this =) thanks for sharing!!!
>
> You are of course most welcome.
>
> But here I am sitting in ... quasi-awe at how what for me was a quick
> light-weight diversion has exploded into a massive debate on this
> list...

Colin, enjoyed the video.  And, important to this post, it's related
to the topic of this list, and more appreciated for that.

I'd like to suggest we all go back to the topic that drew us to this
list in the first place: Linux.  There's an old adage about two topics
never to be discussed in good company: Politics and Religion.  These
have both drawn massive flames on this list recently, and I think the
list would be better without them.  Zbigniew's comment wasn't
Linux-related, but neither was it intended to offend.  Can we just let
the OT comments go?  And talk about Linux?  Thanks.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 16:33:03 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:33:03 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <f735edd00907230552w14e7230fnf2e12a783764e035-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>	 <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <f735edd00907230552w14e7230fnf2e12a783764e035@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6890BF.9020209@telly.org>

Mike wrote:

> Refering to people as monkeys in this society packs a great deal of explosive power.

It especially pisses off creationists....

- Evan

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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 16:34:44 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:34:44 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A6890BF.9020209-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>	 <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <f735edd00907230552w14e7230fnf2e12a783764e035@mail.gmail.com> <4A6890BF.9020209@telly.org>
Message-ID: <4A689124.1070208@moores.ca>

lol, thank you Evan

Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> Mike wrote:
> 
>> Refering to people as monkeys in this society packs a great deal of explosive power.
> 
> It especially pisses off creationists....
> 
> - Evan
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 16:51:00 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:51:00 -0700
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <1248359432.15254.12.camel-EWWT1lLJxm2ye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>
	 <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>
	 <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>
	 <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com> <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>
	 <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2@mail.gmail.com>

Boy, is this an OT-flamebait thread or what.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:30 AM, G. Matthew Rice<matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 10:00 -0400, Darryl Moore wrote:
>> > I am used to say: "the problem is in your own mind!" It seems that no
>> > one does understand that saying...
>>
>> Quite right. It is not what you intended by what you said that matters.
>> It is how it is likely to be received by other people that counts. The
>
> So, everyone isn't really looking for an apology for zb's views.
> They're asking for an apology to the effect that he is sorry that
> everyone misunderstood him?
>
> I regularly call a bunch of my children "lil monkeys". ?I thought that
> they act like monkeys. ?Now, I think that maybe I'm a racist. ?;)
>


My boy (well, not mine biologically, but inherited via relationship)
is Chinese. I often wonder if somebody is going to jump on me as being
racist for calling him "little monkey", but actually his nickname used
by his relatives and mother is Xiao Houtze (forgive my horrible
mangling of PinYin), or "little monkey" in Chinese.  Still, I'm
careful about who I use that phrase around, generally using the
Chinese words in mixed company that might take it the wrong way.

>
>> If you choose to ignore that and continue to utter statements that you
>> know will offend people, and offer nothing that could be considered
>> insightful at the same time, then you are simply being callous.
>

And this is the main point. Whether or not the comment was aimed at
persons of a given race or not, and whether an existing racist
black/primate connotation exists, responding to somebody's
contribution with what is basically "only those with the brains of a
monkey would enjoy that crap" is in itself uncalled for and
counter-productive.  Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but if
your opinion involves insulting the intelligence or preferences of
others, kindly shut the F*** up and keep it to yourself.

> This is the best point anyone has made so far. ?Despite the fact that zb
> isn't continuing to utter the statement (I only saw him say it once,
> then went into defensive mode), I think the point to make is that he may
> want to restructure his statement about his view of the quality of rap
> music from "only monkeys could like rap" to something else like "rap is
> shit". ?Even if only to avoid getting the crap beat out of him someday.
>
> Although, the other thing no one picked up is that zb admits to knowing
> nothing about music. ?In that case, zb should just shut up on the
> matter. ?As Samuel Clemens didn't say:

As per the above, why should a comment of this nature be necessary at
all? I personally have little liking for rap myself, though it varies
on the content of the actual "music" I find that most of what I hear
out there caters to a lifestyle I find little admiration for. Still, I
see little use in responding as such. If you don't like it, don't
watch it.  Had it been a country song or anything else, some will like
it, and those that don't need not take the time to insult the
preferences of the provider, unless the content itself is truly
offensive.

>
> ? "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open
> ? ?it and remove all doubt."
>
>
>> I'm not sure what principle you think you are standing up for. The right
>> to insult others? Hardly seems worth being (rightly) shunned by society.
>
> As a self-proclaimed non-PC-ist, you don't want to go to far the other
> way, either. ?I'm comfortable trying to maintain it at "shocking" and
> "unpredictable".
>
> PS - Is the Coder Girl song link worth clicking on? ?Or just a schleppy
> amateurish offering similar in the difference between Dilbert and
> Userfriendly?
>
> --matt
>
> --


People have a right to their opinions. What they should also make use
of is the discetion in broadcasting it to others, particularly in a
broadly insulting manner. As mentioned before, the "your
preference/opinion/etc is a worthless pile of crap" responses I see on
here, as like Rajinder's response, are simply not useful nor do they
contribute positively to this group, no our overall image as anything
other than a bunch of elitist snobs. In other words, unless somebody
is constantly flooding the group with useless cruft there's no reason
to shoot them down like that, and even in that case a polite "please
tone it down" is more useful than a simian comparison of intelligence.
Type, think, submit... or heck, even transpose step 1 and 2.


Regards,


TJA

p.s. If I ever end up degrading somebody's preferences else on here in
this manner, please feel free to remind me of my own high and mighty
opinions in this matter :-)
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:03:14 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:03:14 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>	 <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>	 <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>	 <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com> <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>	 <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com> <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6897D2.40709@dinamis.com>

On 23/07/09 12:51 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> Type, think, submit... or heck, even transpose step 1 and 2.

I was just wondering what would happen if I did that in reverse order so
I'm thinking about it now and might type something later.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:00:40 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:00:40 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A6890BF.9020209-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <f735edd00907230552w14e7230fnf2e12a783764e035@mail.gmail.com> <4A6890BF.9020209@telly.org>
Message-ID: <20090723170040.GJ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:33:03PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> Mike wrote:
> 
> > Refering to people as monkeys in this society packs a great deal of explosive power.
> 
> It especially pisses off creationists....

Well they piss of lots of people too, so that's probably OK.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:02:12 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:02:12 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A686719.5080106-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com> 	<a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> 	<4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <7c50d3570907230513m6e52bba0g9b9539b168b25352@mail.gmail.com> <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com> <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <4A689794.4050602@telly.org>

Darryl Moore wrote:
> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>
>   
>> For  God sake, did you all went insane all around?
>>
>> I am myself a total ignorant on music. I have no idea what rap means. I
>> had no idea that rap, as it seems, is somehow related to blacks.
>>
>> And now you all jump on me like crazy dogs, not even attempting to
>> discuss the merit of my words.
>>
>> All this just support my original thought that this society went too far
>> in brain washing, in wrong direction.
>>
>> zb.
>>     
>
> zb, here is a little light reading for you. It is not that society has
> gone too far. It is that you appear to be woefully and willfully
> ignorant of many things.
>
>
> http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/02/blacks-as-monke.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music
>   


We have to (and I will) take Zbigniew at face value when he says he did
not intend the comment as a racial slur. Just because others in the past
have used the primate/black reference as a racist insult does not
immediately infer that these particular comments had that in mind.

Having said that, Zbigniew, you deserve every bit the reaction you
receive. If not racist, your comments certainly intended hurt to
*someone*. If you don't understand rap, and don't get why people like
it, that's fine; then leave it alone and let others debate away. But
instead you entered a discussion about something about which you
admitted complete ignorance, as an excuse to engage in namecalling and
pointless negativism.

You just can't post something that is deliberately worded to be
insulting (regardless to who), and then pretend to recoil in shock from
the inevitable consequences. That's not being non-conformist or
attempting a real discussion, that's just being a jerk.

- Evan

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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:06:37 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:06:37 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A6897D2.40709-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>	 <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>	 <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>	 <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com> <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>	 <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com> <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2@mail.gmail.com> <4A6897D2.40709@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <4A68989D.1090905@moores.ca>

Wait! the last item was submit so to do it in reverse order,then the
first thing to...

CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
> On 23/07/09 12:51 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote:
>> Type, think, submit... or heck, even transpose step 1 and 2.
> 
> I was just wondering what would happen if I did that in reverse order so
> I'm thinking about it now and might type something later.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:08:07 2009
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:08:07 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>
	 <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>
	 <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>
	 <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com> <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>
	 <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
	 <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1248368887.14359.4.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>

On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 09:51 -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:30 AM, G. Matthew Rice<matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Although, the other thing no one picked up is that zb admits to knowing
> > nothing about music.  In that case, zb should just shut up on the
> > matter.  As Samuel Clemens didn't say:
> 
> As per the above, why should a comment of this nature be necessary at
> all?

Oh, well that falls into another quote category:

   "Well, opinions are like assholes... everybody has one."
		-- Dirty Harry


> p.s. If I ever end up degrading somebody's preferences else on here in
> this manner, please feel free to remind me of my own high and mighty
> opinions in this matter :-)

You can count on us!! :)

--matt

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:10:39 2009
From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:10:39 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <1248368887.14359.4.camel-EWWT1lLJxm2ye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>
	 <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>
	 <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com> <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>
	 <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
	 <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1248368887.14359.4.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <32f6a8880907231010r5864148dy4b5fd9ce0ff1646e@mail.gmail.com>

Well me not being a fan of rap in general because of its content. This
content is quite good. Its written in context...You can usually think
of rap as in poetry. Most of it's crap but then you have one that
shines out.
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From davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:11:34 2009
From: davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Dave Germiquet)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:11:34 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880907231010r5864148dy4b5fd9ce0ff1646e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca> <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com>
	 <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca> <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com>
	 <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>
	 <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
	 <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1248368887.14359.4.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
	 <32f6a8880907231010r5864148dy4b5fd9ce0ff1646e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32f6a8880907231011hcdbf302t18293cbb0089e756@mail.gmail.com>

And I think this one was really well written. :) Proper content and
well written.

I really like this Rap..its a poem song to a beat.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Dave Germiquet<davegermiquet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Well me not being a fan of rap in general because of its content. This
> content is quite good. Its written in context...You can usually think
> of rap as in poetry. Most of it's crap but then you have one that
> shines out.
>



-- 



Dave Germiquet
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:11:41 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:11:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <32f6a8880907231010r5864148dy4b5fd9ce0ff1646e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>  <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>  <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>  <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com> <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca> 
 <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>  <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2@mail.gmail.com>  <1248368887.14359.4.camel@hatsya.starnix.com> <32f6a8880907231010r5864148dy4b5fd9ce0ff1646e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907231310430.3647@localhost>

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009, Dave Germiquet wrote:

> Well me not being a fan of rap in general because of its content.
> This content is quite good. Its written in context...You can usually
> think of rap as in poetry. Most of it's crap but then you have one
> that shines out.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UNQzBynaQY

i had a linux question, too, but i'll come back later.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
"Kernel Newbie Corner" column @ linux.com:          http://cli.gs/WG6WYX
========================================================================
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:15:22 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:15:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: anyone out there looking for beagleboard-like consulting?
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907231312420.3711@localhost>


  for the last while, i've been -- on my own time -- messing around
with the beagleboard, but rather than do it for free, it would be tres
cool to be able to do it for someone and make some $$$ from it.  :-)

  anyone out there needing any contract consulting on an embedded
linux system like that?  no sense hoarding all this wisdom if i can
share it with the masses and make a living from it.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
"Kernel Newbie Corner" column @ linux.com:          http://cli.gs/WG6WYX
========================================================================
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:22:03 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:22:03 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907230749s1d62304me48ced89edf72a3f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> <f646b91f0907230749s1d62304me48ced89edf72a3f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A689C3B.3080000@telly.org>

Colin McGregor wrote:
> There is so little in the way of geek humour compared to many other
> trades / professions (did you hear the one about the lawyer who ...).
> So, when someone does a cute / clever bit about geeks (especially
> women geeks) I think it should be promoted / encouraged.
>   
I'm not sure that geeks want to have a whole canon of humour about them
similar to what exists for the legal profession:

"What do you call 5,000 geeks at the bottom of the sea?"
"A good start"

There's not a lot of accountant, or garage-mechanic, or social worker
humour either. Certain fields just gravitate to it better than others.

Most geeks I know are just happy to have received some recognition as
mainstream humour targets in "Big Bang Theory" or "The IT Crowd".

As for this video .... it's cute, but smacks of pandering. Nowhere near
as clever as Al Yankovic's two-year-old "It's All About the Pentiums"
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky-JTAPhmUo) but I'm glad you mentioned
it here.

- Evan

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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:29:23 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:29:23 -0400
Subject: Microsoft opened Linux-driver code after 'violating' GPL
Message-ID: <05f6ead05bd0a735a2b2bb2c61a545bf@teksavvy.com>

Microsoft opened Linux-driver code after 'violating' GPL
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23/microsoft_hyperv_gpl_violation/

Pigs are flying low: Why Microsoft open-sourced its Linux drivers
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3433


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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:35:27 2009
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:35:27 -0400
Subject: Ethics, Free Software, Copyright and Creative Content
Message-ID: <99a6c38f0907231035i6d0b6bc9w50e826252dab6322@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, I admit that I haven't watched the Coder Girl video yet.  I rather
expect I'll enjoy it when I get around to watching it.

In following the thread though I'm reminded of a paper[1] that I read
just last night - Ethical Visions of Copyright Law by James
Grimmelmann (Associate Professor of Law, New York Law School).  It was
mentioned by Joseph Potvin on Michael Geist's blog[2] yesterday.

The paper itself is 33 pages and I have to recommend reading the essay
in it's entirety.  It does a great job of analyzing and explaining the
copyfight and, in some ways, conflict in general.  Some folks on the
list may find this a rather interesting read.  Personally, I found it
fascinating.

Cheers,
- Scott.


[1] via http://bit.ly/ehtNf or
http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009/04/of-rms-ethical-visions-and-copyright.html

[2] http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4175/196/ (Thanks Meng!)
-- 
  Scott Elcomb
  http://www.psema4.com/   @psema4
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:35:45 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:35:45 -0700
Subject: Geek humor (was: Coder Girl...)
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907231035y511b0997m871e62d697c0cc37@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Evan Leibovitch<evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Colin McGregor wrote:
>> There is so little in the way of geek humour compared to many other
>> trades / professions (did you hear the one about the lawyer who ...).
>> So, when someone does a cute / clever bit about geeks (especially
>> women geeks) I think it should be promoted / encouraged.
>>
> I'm not sure that geeks want to have a whole canon of humour about them
> similar to what exists for the legal profession:
>
> "What do you call 5,000 geeks at the bottom of the sea?"
> "A good start"
>
> There's not a lot of accountant, or garage-mechanic, or social worker
> humour either. Certain fields just gravitate to it better than others.
>
> Most geeks I know are just happy to have received some recognition as
> mainstream humour targets in "Big Bang Theory" or "The IT Crowd".
>
> As for this video .... it's cute, but smacks of pandering. Nowhere near
> as clever as Al Yankovic's two-year-old "It's All About the Pentiums"
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky-JTAPhmUo) but I'm glad you mentioned
> it here.
>
> - Evan
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

Well, luckily geeks aren't quite as reviled as some other professions
(yet), but it seems that there is quite a lot of geek-centric
stereotypical humor out there. The interesting thing is that most of
it is understood best by... other geeks. I'm thinking of things such
as Dilbert comics and various other geek/IT-focused memes which tend
to have plenty of "inside jokes". There's also the more broad
"American Pie" style humor while appeals to the masses, but these days
it almost seems to commend geekdome as much as it makes fun of it.
There's also movies such as the new "Star Trek" which appeal to the
broad-masses with the whole "lasers, SFX, and explosions" while having
quite a bit of inside humor.

Personally I find most of such things - even those poking fun at
"geeks" - tend to be more funny than insulting anyhow. As a whole we
probably shouldn't take ourselves too seriously - life's no fun that
way -  though at the same time individual or distasteful attacks
should also not be condoned either. Canucks in general are fairly
noted for a self-effacing style of humour though :-)

Anyone know anything of good "geek humour" other than the usual
Dilbert/XKCD/etc?
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From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:42:58 2009
From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:42:58 -0400
Subject: Geek humor
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907231035y511b0997m871e62d697c0cc37-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907231035y511b0997m871e62d697c0cc37@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090723134258.rtedke6mo8ccs44s@easymail.pathcom.com>

----- Message from tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org ---------

> Anyone know anything of good "geek humour" other than the usual
> Dilbert/XKCD/etc?

Most of my geek humour infusions come from music.  If you're not 
already familiar with it, I'd suggest going to YouTube and looking for: 
jonathan coulton code monkey

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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 18:04:25 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:04:25 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A689C3B.3080000-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	 <f646b91f0907230749s1d62304me48ced89edf72a3f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A689C3B.3080000@telly.org>
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907231104i49997954l2ca8618bd8e06c41@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/23/09, Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Colin McGregor wrote:
>> There is so little in the way of geek humour compared to many other
>> trades / professions (did you hear the one about the lawyer who ...).
>> So, when someone does a cute / clever bit about geeks (especially
>> women geeks) I think it should be promoted / encouraged.
>>
> I'm not sure that geeks want to have a whole canon of humour about them
> similar to what exists for the legal profession:
>
> "What do you call 5,000 geeks at the bottom of the sea?"
> "A good start"
>
> There's not a lot of accountant, or garage-mechanic, or social worker
> humour either. Certain fields just gravitate to it better than others.

Oh, a challenge :-)  :

- Did you hear about the constipated accountant? She worked it out
with a pencil.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A mechanic was removing a cylinder head from the motor of a Harley
Davidson Motorcycle when he spotted a well-known heart surgeon in his
shop.

 The surgeon was there waiting for the service manager to come take a
look at his bike when the mechanic shouted across the garage. "Hey
Doc, can I ask you a question?"

 The surgeon, a bit surprised, walked over to where the mechanic was
working on the motorcycle.

 The mechanic straightened up, wiped his hands on a rag and asked, "So
Doc, look at this engine. I open its heart, take the valves out,
repair any damage, and then put them back in, and when I finish, it
works just like new. So, how come I get such a small salary and you
get the really big bucks, when you and I are doing basically the same
work?"

 The surgeon paused, smiled and leaned over, and whispered to the
mechanic...."Try doing it with the engine running.."

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Q. What's the difference between an automobile mechanic and a quantum mechanic?

A. A quantum mechanic can get his car into the garage without opening the door.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Q: What is the difference between God and a social worker?
A: God doesn't pretend to be a social worker

Q: What is the difference between a social worker and a pit bull?
A: At least you can get part of your baby back from a pit bull

> Most geeks I know are just happy to have received some recognition as
> mainstream humour targets in "Big Bang Theory" or "The IT Crowd".
>
> As for this video .... it's cute, but smacks of pandering. Nowhere near
> as clever as Al Yankovic's two-year-old "It's All About the Pentiums"
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky-JTAPhmUo) but I'm glad you mentioned
> it here.
>
> - Evan
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 19:30:43 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:30:43 -0400
Subject: Geek humor
In-Reply-To: <20090723134258.rtedke6mo8ccs44s-tFWc0ywIa9dhaKgzZVxdTVaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907231035y511b0997m871e62d697c0cc37@mail.gmail.com> <20090723134258.rtedke6mo8ccs44s@easymail.pathcom.com>
Message-ID: <20090723193042.GK2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 01:42:58PM -0400, Phillip Mills wrote:
> Most of my geek humour infusions come from music.  If you're not already 
> familiar with it, I'd suggest going to YouTube and looking for: jonathan 
> coulton code monkey

Or "Still alive" or "skullcrusher mountain" or "mandelbrot set", or for
less geeky and just plain weird try "Mr. fancy pants".

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 23 17:28:24 2009
From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:28:24 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl... [whimsy]
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A685852.1040300@gmail.com> <4A685D76.4060609@alteeve.com>
	 <4A68613E.3020103@gmail.com> <4A6862DB.7090304@moores.ca>
	 <4A686423.6000504@gmail.com> <4A686719.5080106@moores.ca>
	 <4A6869C5.5010309@gmail.com> <4A686D03.2050104@moores.ca>
	 <1248359432.15254.12.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
	 <3a97ef0907230951y2473bb69y5cb4ab5471a5d2e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1248370104.8126.96.camel@cougar-hardy>

Well, taking this ...
?
On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 12:07 -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> I'd like to suggest we all go back to the topic that drew us to this
> list in the first place: Linux.

with this ...

On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 09:51 -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> Type, think, submit... or heck, even transpose step 1 and 2.

I cannot resist coming up with ...

    ( think | type )* think+ submit?

Note that type is entirely optional, as per ...

?On Thu, 2009-07-23 at 13:03 -0400, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: 
> I'm thinking about it now and might type something later.

Can you say "paralipsis", boys and girls?

Cheers,
Terry.


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From rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 02:04:30 2009
From: rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Dice)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:04:30 -0400
Subject: Reminder - Damian Conway event, Monday 27 July 2009
Message-ID: <5bef4baf0907231904gfa1fe96u25bea9c5f9b23036@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

A reminder for Damian's talk next Monday evening, details below.  (Note that
there was a small mistake in the details the last time I sent them;  Bahen
Centre is really on the /West/ side of St. George.)

Presenter:  Dr. Damian Conway, the Mad Scientist of Perl
            http://damian.conway.org/About_us//Bio_formal.html
            http://www.googlism.com/index.htm?ism=damian+conway&type=1
Talk Title: The Missing Link
Details:    What do watching trees grow, debugging debuggers,
            Greek mythology, code that writes code that writes code
             that writes code, the hazards of LaTeX, successful failures,
            the treacherous Vorta, objective syntax, anti-stacks,
             Danish mind-control, active null statements, synthetic standup,
            and the prospect of certain death all have in common?
             Watch as Damian weaves them together into a new and improbably
            useful module that demonstrates the awesome power and beauty
             of Perl 5.10.
Date:       Monday 27 July 2009
Time:       7pm - 9pm
            show up early to get a seat, find place to park if you're
             driving, etc.
Location:   Bahen Centre for IT
             Room 1160 (i.e. the major lecture theater on the ground floor)
            University of Toronto St. George (downtown) campus
             40 St. George Street
            (just North of College on the West side of St. George)
Parking:    See the following URL for information about parking on
            UofT St. George campus
             http://tinyurl.com/u-of-t-parking
            Looks like there is an underground lot directly beneath
             Bahen Centre (marker #17).  I also find it convenient to
            park on King's College Circle (marker #13).
Transit:    St. George subway Stn, St. George St. exit,
            walk south approx. 7 minutes
             _or_ Queen's Park subway Stn., walk west approx. 5 minutes
            _or_ College streetcar westbound from either College Stn
             or Queen's Park Stn (but walking may be faster than waiting
            for a car, especially if you're at Queen's Park Stn)
-------------- next part --------------
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From tim-Ww2BJfnxIYteoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 05:49:10 2009
From: tim-Ww2BJfnxIYteoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org (Tim Middleton)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 01:49:10 -0400
Subject: Geek humor
In-Reply-To: <20090723193042.GK2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907231035y511b0997m871e62d697c0cc37@mail.gmail.com> <20090723134258.rtedke6mo8ccs44s@easymail.pathcom.com> <20090723193042.GK2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <200907240149.10573.tim@xxvii.net>

I discovered Jonathan Coulton on "the sixtyone" some weeks ago. If anyone's 
interested in supporting his geekiness you can do it there either by giving 
him "hearts" (which makes his songs rise in the ranks to get more exposure) or 
with tips (ie. actual money).

I particularly like the song "Re: your brains". I like "Code Monkey" too, 
though it's shamelessly packed with horrendous techie/programmer cliches. I 
think the most interesting thing about it was his decision to write the lyrics 
in a sort of "cave man"/primitive/tarzan-like dialect... i think that subtle 
element says more than the actual song does... and it works... (i think)... 
conveys the feeling I think a lot of us techies have of not being able to 
communicate properly to "normal" people... or should I say rather that 
"normal" people can't seem to understand understand our sensible explanations 
for things and think we're barely speaking english half the time when we do 
talk to them... so they view us as sort of primitive proto-humans who mostly 
just talk to/like machines. Or perhaps that's just me. <-: 

He has quite a few songs posted there. Most of them are downloadable with a 
creative commons license.... which is pretty cool (you must admit).

http://www.thesixtyone.com/new/#/jonathancoulton/

It's a pretty interesting site in general. They've tried to create a site 
where independent musicians can post/share/sell their music, and engage users 
in various ways.

The most interesting part (to me) is how they've made a (optional) quasi-
adventure game for users to encourage exploring new music... if you explore 
the interface. If you start to explore, it quickly gets addictive... it's 
quite clever how they've done that.

Shameless plug: If you check it out and feel like signing up for an account 
(so you can give Jonathan some love) feel free to use my referral URL below... 
(-: I don't get anything from it except a few "reputation points" ... which 
are worthless, but fun to collect (as part of the game-like system the site 
incorporates). You'd be helping me complete the "Evangelist" quest! Wheee.

http://www.thesixtyone.com/?referred_by_username=timtoo



On Thursday 23 July 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote to tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org:
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 01:42:58PM -0400, Phillip Mills wrote:
> > Most of my geek humour infusions come from music.  If you're not already
> > familiar with it, I'd suggest going to YouTube and looking for: jonathan
> > coulton code monkey
>
> Or "Still alive" or "skullcrusher mountain" or "mandelbrot set", or for
> less geeky and just plain weird try "Mr. fancy pants".


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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 15:04:12 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:04:12 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A684F54.8070907-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Zbigniew Koziol<softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
>>>
>>> ?http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
>>>
>>> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
>>>
>>>
>>> Colin McGregor
>>>
>>
>> I Love this =) thanks for sharing!!!
>>
>>
>
> You people there are getting like monkeys.
>
> Sure, I like the idea itself. The intentions are wonderful.
>
> Unfortunately, monkeys only could like rap. The disintegration of moral
> values that goes through within this society has no equal through out the
> globe.
>
> zb,

Hello ZB,

first I am not offended with what you said, but I would like you to
try to see that your story about me and other who enjoy artist and
self-expression and sharing is totally misguided.

I would like to invite you to stand and try to see that there is
nothing wrong about Rap, however what is wrong is what you seem to be
telling yourself.

I don't care to be called a monkey, I am pretty confident in my own
skin and when I hear a comment like this I can only try to be a better
human being and try to stand for my fellow human being like yourself
ZB and try to make you understand that you are possibly wrong about
your view and your fears.

I can only invite you to change your perception about music, about
rap, about self-expression and about sharing... please drop the act
that something is or has to be wrong when there is absolutely nothing
wrong!

You stand in a place of GRATE ignorance when you judge societies on
the merits of Rap music, let me remind you many are killed in the name
or religion?

So it's ignorant people who actually causes grief in this world, not
religion and certainly not rap music or monkey people like me =)

I do not hold a value judgment on you ZB other then I hope you will
come to a better understanding that you're point of view or reality is
somewhat misguided.

You have definitely lost your integrity within this community, it is a
shame and I do hope you will restore your integrity but only if you
mean it and not because we want to hear some apology!

As for my moral values, there is nothing wrong with them. I am not a
perfect human being but I do know I don't go through life finding
issues that separate me from my fellow being so I can pass blind
judgment on them and then become a person on inaction to make a moral
difference in them or society.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 15:15:44 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:15:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A689C3B.3080000-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>  <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com> <f646b91f0907230749s1d62304me48ced89edf72a3f@mail.gmail.com> <4A689C3B.3080000@telly.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907241031170.5292@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Evan Leibovitch <evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org>

|   Nowhere near
| as clever as Al Yankovic's two-year-old "It's All About the Pentiums"
| (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky-JTAPhmUo)

Actually 10 years old.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_All_About_the_Pentiums

Now it would be "It's All About the i7s".  Except I hear very little
buzz about the i7.  And it sounds nothing like "Benjamins".

The Athlon made its debut just before the song came out (but after the
song was recorded).  It was cooler than the Pentiums.

Here's a three year old Wierd Al song that I like: White & Nerdy
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbVtbc_XzrI
I vaguely remember that my daughter pointed out an error in the
Schrodinger equation in the background (h should be h-bar?).

In fact, all the singles from his "Straight Outta Lynwood" album are
relevant to us:
  Don't Download This Song
  White & Nerdy
  Canadian Idiot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_Outta_Lynwood
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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 15:32:52 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:32:52 +0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com> <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A69D424.4020702@gmail.com>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Zbigniew Koziol<softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>   
>> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>     
>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Ran across the following rap music tribute to a woman programmer:
>>>>
>>>>  http://php-princess.net/2009/07/21/coder-girl/
>>>>
>>>> All pleasantly warped, twisted, and good fun...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Colin McGregor
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> I Love this =) thanks for sharing!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> You people there are getting like monkeys.
>>
>> Sure, I like the idea itself. The intentions are wonderful.
>>
>> Unfortunately, monkeys only could like rap. The disintegration of moral
>> values that goes through within this society has no equal through out the
>> globe.
>>
>> zb,
>>     
>
> Hello ZB,
>
> first I am not offended with what you said, but I would like you to
> try to see that your story about me and other who enjoy artist and
> self-expression and sharing is totally misguided.
>
> I would like to invite you to stand and try to see that there is
> nothing wrong about Rap, however what is wrong is what you seem to be
> telling yourself.
>
> I don't care to be called a monkey, I am pretty confident in my own
> skin and when I hear a comment like this I can only try to be a better
> human being and try to stand for my fellow human being like yourself
> ZB and try to make you understand that you are possibly wrong about
> your view and your fears.
>
> I can only invite you to change your perception about music, about
> rap, about self-expression and about sharing... please drop the act
> that something is or has to be wrong when there is absolutely nothing
> wrong!
>   
How is that possible that no one is wrong? ;) Either I am wrong or you 
are wrong. Or we both are wrong. No fourth option... We can not be both 
right when we already agreed that at least one of us is wrong. Unless we 
assume that a sort of quantum interference exists and determines already 
our logic.

> So it's ignorant people who actually causes grief in this world, not
> religion and certainly not rap music or monkey people like me =)
>   
Did you also undergo Darwin evolution? I doubt I did.

> I do not hold a value judgment on you ZB other then I hope you will
> come to a better understanding that you're point of view or reality is
> somewhat misguided.
>
>   

I am working really very hard on my own understanding of the Universe.

> You have definitely lost your integrity within this community, it is a
> shame and I do hope you will restore your integrity but only if you
> mean it and not because we want to hear some apology!
>
> As for my moral values, there is nothing wrong with them. I am not a
> perfect human being but I do know I don't go through life finding
> issues that separate me from my fellow being so I can pass blind
> judgment on them and then become a person on inaction to make a moral
> difference in them or society.
>   

You touched the right problem: moral values.

Regards,
zb.



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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 16:38:42 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:38:42 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A69D424.4020702-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A69D424.4020702@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907240938m51359aabq9e1739db1b446b57@mail.gmail.com>

> How is that possible that no one is wrong? ;) Either I am wrong or you are
> wrong. Or we both are wrong. No fourth option... We can not be both right
> when we already agreed that at least one of us is wrong. Unless we assume
> that a sort of quantum interference exists and determines already our logic.

ZB nothing is wrong with Rap because there is nothing wrong, it is
what is it, words! However, you say there is something wrong, and then
your reality is shaped by the "LANGUAGE" you have used to "CREATE"
something is WRONG! Do you get it?

What I am trying to get to is that Rap music "in and of itself" has
nothing wrong with it. You decided it was wrong. You decided it causes
moral disintegration, you decided people who listen to this are
monkeys. That's all that happened here!

All this exist in one's use of language to create a reality. So as I
declared there is nothing wrong, it is beautiful this Rap song, I
Loved it! I created a reality of social and moral values of LOVE and
expression and connectedness and sharing! My reality is powerful and
forward moving dare I say it =)

We can both be right in language when it comes to passing value and
judgment. The creator is either empowered or powerless. A powerless
leader lives in a world that is powerless and full or problems to be
complained about or avoided, etc. etc.

You are going to find a lot of areas in your life that are not working
(mostly in relationships). All of it created by your declaration in
your use of language that something is wrong! Then you draw a line in
the sand and prepare to stand for your declaration which is based on
one's ignorance.

Stop saying something is wrong, it is what it is and be a leader and
not a complainer and do something to connect people rather than
disconnect people?

You are no different than anyone here, but with your use of language
you create a reality that is only your own! No one else is going to
own your reality and even have the exact some one, NO WAY, NO HOW,
think about that one for a while.

You have been educated today dare I say by a monkey....btw, if you
live in Toronto I would like to invite you to be my guest in a seminar
that I think you would like and it would make you a great and powerful
leader who understands his moral purpose in this world. I do not want
to mention the name of the organization I am taking a class in and
currently continuing to complete which I thought would make me a
better entrepreneur at first. I got more out of it in terms of
relationships, having peace and understanding in my life and being a
powerful leader. Whatever you want in life ZB, you can create and have
it! The seminar is free, you can say no if you attend and think it's
not for you. If you are into making improvements in your life, want to
live a life without constraints than this is something you would like.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 17:04:21 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:04:21 +0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907240938m51359aabq9e1739db1b446b57-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>	 <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A69D424.4020702@gmail.com> <a05162a70907240938m51359aabq9e1739db1b446b57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A69E995.4070906@gmail.com>

Rajinder,

We are over! This discussion is done!

Otherwise Evan may come and teach us religion. So, take care and write 
since now on Linux subjects.

I can not come to your seminar (I would love to). I live now (God knows 
for how long) in Orel, which is 400 km south-west of Moscow in Russia. 
You all there may wonder how is that possible that a Canadian citizen 
who is of Polish origin (and Polish as a whole in fact consider Russia 
as an enemy) lives in Russia? Well... I ask that question myself...

zb.


Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> How is that possible that no one is wrong? ;) Either I am wrong or you are
>> wrong. Or we both are wrong. No fourth option... We can not be both right
>> when we already agreed that at least one of us is wrong. Unless we assume
>> that a sort of quantum interference exists and determines already our logic.
>>     
>
> ZB nothing is wrong with Rap because there is nothing wrong, it is
> what is it, words! However, you say there is something wrong, and then
> your reality is shaped by the "LANGUAGE" you have used to "CREATE"
> something is WRONG! Do you get it?
>
> What I am trying to get to is that Rap music "in and of itself" has
> nothing wrong with it. You decided it was wrong. You decided it causes
> moral disintegration, you decided people who listen to this are
> monkeys. That's all that happened here!
>
> All this exist in one's use of language to create a reality. So as I
> declared there is nothing wrong, it is beautiful this Rap song, I
> Loved it! I created a reality of social and moral values of LOVE and
> expression and connectedness and sharing! My reality is powerful and
> forward moving dare I say it =)
>
> We can both be right in language when it comes to passing value and
> judgment. The creator is either empowered or powerless. A powerless
> leader lives in a world that is powerless and full or problems to be
> complained about or avoided, etc. etc.
>
> You are going to find a lot of areas in your life that are not working
> (mostly in relationships). All of it created by your declaration in
> your use of language that something is wrong! Then you draw a line in
> the sand and prepare to stand for your declaration which is based on
> one's ignorance.
>
> Stop saying something is wrong, it is what it is and be a leader and
> not a complainer and do something to connect people rather than
> disconnect people?
>
> You are no different than anyone here, but with your use of language
> you create a reality that is only your own! No one else is going to
> own your reality and even have the exact some one, NO WAY, NO HOW,
> think about that one for a while.
>
> You have been educated today dare I say by a monkey....btw, if you
> live in Toronto I would like to invite you to be my guest in a seminar
> that I think you would like and it would make you a great and powerful
> leader who understands his moral purpose in this world. I do not want
> to mention the name of the organization I am taking a class in and
> currently continuing to complete which I thought would make me a
> better entrepreneur at first. I got more out of it in terms of
> relationships, having peace and understanding in my life and being a
> powerful leader. Whatever you want in life ZB, you can create and have
> it! The seminar is free, you can say no if you attend and think it's
> not for you. If you are into making improvements in your life, want to
> live a life without constraints than this is something you would like.
>
>   

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 17:21:30 2009
From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:21:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <4A69E995.4070906-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>  <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>  <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>  <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>  <4A69D424.4020702@gmail.com> <a05162a70907240938m51359aabq9e1739db1b446b57@mail.gmail.com> <4A69E995.4070906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1248456090.4a69ed9ac69d1@webmail.golden.net>

Quoting Zbigniew Koziol <softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:

> Rajinder,
> 
> We are over! This discussion is done!
> 
> Otherwise Evan may come and teach us religion. So, take care and write 
> since now on Linux subjects.
> 
> I can not come to your seminar (I would love to). I live now (God knows
> 
> for how long) in Orel, which is 400 km south-west of Moscow in Russia. 
> You all there may wonder how is that possible that a Canadian citizen 
> who is of Polish origin (and Polish as a whole in fact consider Russia 
> as an enemy) lives in Russia? Well... I ask that question myself...
> 
> zb.
> 

I'll bite. How the heck did you get all the way there ? I know the Mississauga
Transit sucks but .... wow. 

Last time I saw you you were working in Mississauga. A bunch of us from TLUG
chipped in parts so you could build a computer. 

John 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through WebMail | Courtesy of Execulink

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From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 17:31:54 2009
From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:31:54 -0400
Subject: ot: Best URL Shortening Service?
Message-ID: <4A69F00A.2050003@utoronto.ca>

What url shortening service would you recommend?

Ivan.
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 17:53:21 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:53:21 -0400
Subject: Geek humor
In-Reply-To: <200907240149.10573.tim-Ww2BJfnxIYteoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907231035y511b0997m871e62d697c0cc37@mail.gmail.com> <20090723134258.rtedke6mo8ccs44s@easymail.pathcom.com> <20090723193042.GK2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <200907240149.10573.tim@xxvii.net>
Message-ID: <20090724175320.GL2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 01:49:10AM -0400, Tim Middleton wrote:
> I discovered Jonathan Coulton on "the sixtyone" some weeks ago. If anyone's 
> interested in supporting his geekiness you can do it there either by giving 
> him "hearts" (which makes his songs rise in the ranks to get more exposure) or 
> with tips (ie. actual money).
> 
> I particularly like the song "Re: your brains". I like "Code Monkey" too, 
> though it's shamelessly packed with horrendous techie/programmer cliches. I 
> think the most interesting thing about it was his decision to write the lyrics 
> in a sort of "cave man"/primitive/tarzan-like dialect... i think that subtle 
> element says more than the actual song does... and it works... (i think)... 
> conveys the feeling I think a lot of us techies have of not being able to 
> communicate properly to "normal" people... or should I say rather that 
> "normal" people can't seem to understand understand our sensible explanations 
> for things and think we're barely speaking english half the time when we do 
> talk to them... so they view us as sort of primitive proto-humans who mostly 
> just talk to/like machines. Or perhaps that's just me. <-: 
> 
> He has quite a few songs posted there. Most of them are downloadable with a 
> creative commons license.... which is pretty cool (you must admit).
> 
> http://www.thesixtyone.com/new/#/jonathancoulton/

You can also buy them directly from him here:
http://www.jonathancoulton.com/store/

Lots of formats (including flac) available.  I personally just have a
couple of CDs bought at a concert.

> It's a pretty interesting site in general. They've tried to create a site 
> where independent musicians can post/share/sell their music, and engage users 
> in various ways.
> 
> The most interesting part (to me) is how they've made a (optional) quasi-
> adventure game for users to encourage exploring new music... if you explore 
> the interface. If you start to explore, it quickly gets addictive... it's 
> quite clever how they've done that.
> 
> Shameless plug: If you check it out and feel like signing up for an account 
> (so you can give Jonathan some love) feel free to use my referral URL below... 
> (-: I don't get anything from it except a few "reputation points" ... which 
> are worthless, but fun to collect (as part of the game-like system the site 
> incorporates). You'd be helping me complete the "Evangelist" quest! Wheee.
> 
> http://www.thesixtyone.com/?referred_by_username=timtoo

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 18:04:51 2009
From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:04:51 +0400
Subject: chipped in parts
In-Reply-To: <1248456090.4a69ed9ac69d1-2RFepEojUI3p24aHPuLyy6xOck334EZe@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>  <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>  <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>  <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>  <4A69D424.4020702@gmail.com> <a05162a70907240938m51359aabq9e1739db1b446b57@mail.gmail.com> <4A69E995.4070906@gmail.com> <1248456090.4a69ed9ac69d1@webmail.golden.net>
Message-ID: <4A69F7C3.9040607@gmail.com>

Someone is going to hang me for changing the subject not in the right 
way... But I forgot how was that the right way...

You think I remember your name? Please be forgiving, my dear friend.

I do remember situations, not names or faces. It was.. when? Quite a few 
years ago. Perhaps four? Or five? You were the one who left me 
motherboard? We met perhaps on Jarvis? Please confirm.
I know, it sounds not very realistic - but.. anyone who wants to visit 
me in Russia - please come. You pay travel tickets and akll the rest is 
my problem. Even though my present salary at university is around 300 
CAD monthly.

That motherboard helped me to survive. Did you know? It helped me to 
survive. I still have it! I use now another computer, also very cheap 
though powerful.

Did you all know that I, with PhD in Physics from Netherlands, and a 
postdoc at Dalhousie had to live on streets of Toronto? And doing very 
dirty jobs for very low money just to survive? I never ever was able to 
get a decent life opportunities in Canada. For 14 years of living in 
Canada. Why a shit I had to go to Russia for living after I lost my job? 
Do you think this is normal? Ask there yourself. Ask yourself also why 
so many educated people are on streets and doing poor and hard jobs 
barely able to survive.

I was on streets of Toronto in summer 1998. I will never ever forget that.

zb.


















jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org wrote:
> Quoting Zbigniew Koziol <softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>
>   
>> Rajinder,
>>
>> We are over! This discussion is done!
>>
>> Otherwise Evan may come and teach us religion. So, take care and write 
>> since now on Linux subjects.
>>
>> I can not come to your seminar (I would love to). I live now (God knows
>>
>> for how long) in Orel, which is 400 km south-west of Moscow in Russia. 
>> You all there may wonder how is that possible that a Canadian citizen 
>> who is of Polish origin (and Polish as a whole in fact consider Russia 
>> as an enemy) lives in Russia? Well... I ask that question myself...
>>
>> zb.
>>
>>     
>
> I'll bite. How the heck did you get all the way there ? I know the Mississauga
> Transit sucks but .... wow. 
>
> Last time I saw you you were working in Mississauga. A bunch of us from TLUG
> chipped in parts so you could build a computer. 
>
> John 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through WebMail | Courtesy of Execulink
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>   

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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 18:22:12 2009
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:22:12 -0400
Subject: ot: Best URL Shortening Service?
In-Reply-To: <4A69F00A.2050003-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A69F00A.2050003@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20090724182212.GA32019@yam.witteman.ca>

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 01:31:54PM -0400, Ivan Avery Frey wrote:
>What url shortening service would you recommend?

I wouldn't, but I do understand that that is not terribly helpful.  If
you are going to use one, follow a link created by that service while
watching your HTTP traffic - you will be able to spot obviously
nefarious or brittle behaviour pretty easily.

I generally create a URL shortening service native to the website if I 
have long links on website I run, so that there is no middle man in the 
process and some semblance of control.

For more on why they are/can be a problem, start here:

http://joshua.schachter.org/2009/04/on-url-shorteners.html
-- 

yours,

William

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From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 18:24:51 2009
From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:24:51 -0400
Subject: ot: Best URL Shortening Service?
In-Reply-To: <4A69F00A.2050003-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A69F00A.2050003@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <4A69FC73.7080602@rogers.com>

Ivan Avery Frey wrote:
> What url shortening service would you recommend?
>
> Ivan.
>   
None. I have come to regard Tinyurl and its competitors as spam vectors 
and immediately delete any that I encounter. Here's an article that 
backs up my stance:
http://www.switched.com/2009/07/09/spammers-discover-url-shorteners/

John

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From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 18:26:48 2009
From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:26:48 -0400
Subject: ot: Best URL Shortening Service?
In-Reply-To: <20090724182212.GA32019-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A69F00A.2050003@utoronto.ca> <20090724182212.GA32019@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <4A69FCE8.9060303@linuxcaffe.ca>

William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 01:31:54PM -0400, Ivan Avery Frey wrote:
>> What url shortening service would you recommend?
> 
> I wouldn't, but I do understand that that is not terribly helpful.  If
> you are going to use one, follow a link created by that service while
> watching your HTTP traffic - you will be able to spot obviously
> nefarious or brittle behaviour pretty easily.

yes, it has been said that url shortening will seriously foul up the 
future indexing of the interweb. To combat this, use shortnames in your 
sites, and look for them in other sites, when you link.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 18:51:22 2009
From: asafmaruf-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Asaf Maruf)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:51:22 -0400
Subject: ot: Best URL Shortening Service?
In-Reply-To: <4A69FCE8.9060303-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A69F00A.2050003@utoronto.ca>
	 <20090724182212.GA32019@yam.witteman.ca>
	 <4A69FCE8.9060303@linuxcaffe.ca>
Message-ID: <49e826e90907241151l245fe1a6jc804c62704bcdfa@mail.gmail.com>

tinyurl.com

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:26 PM, David J Patrick <djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 01:31:54PM -0400, Ivan Avery Frey wrote:
>>
>>> What url shortening service would you recommend?
>>>
>>
>> I wouldn't, but I do understand that that is not terribly helpful.  If
>> you are going to use one, follow a link created by that service while
>> watching your HTTP traffic - you will be able to spot obviously
>> nefarious or brittle behaviour pretty easily.
>>
>
> yes, it has been said that url shortening will seriously foul up the future
> indexing of the interweb. To combat this, use shortnames in your sites, and
> look for them in other sites, when you link.
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
twitter.com/asaf

LinkedIn Profile:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/asafmaruf
Pablo Picasso<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/pablo_picasso.html>
- "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 18:53:32 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:53:32 -0400
Subject: Coder Girl...
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907241153w10e41879p26285b916bb14e0c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Rajinder Yadav<devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> first I am not offended with what you said, but I would like you to
> try to see that your story about me and other who enjoy artist and
> self-expression and sharing is totally misguided.
>
> I would like to invite you to stand and try to see that there is
> nothing wrong about Rap, however what is wrong is what you seem to be
> telling yourself.

It seems to me that this misses an important point...

There *IS* something wrong with rap, and that is that it's not to ZB's
taste, musically.  I happen to agree with his "musical taste" at least
in this regard.  I'm not much of a rap fan, either.

- I don't like rap.
- After a summer of sharing a basement with a Bob Marley fan, I'm not
terribly keen on reggae either.
- Any of the remotely "smelly-feet-ish" cheeses disagree with me.
- Don't offer me durian.

These are matters of taste, and it's NOT WRONG to have preferences of taste.

> I can only invite you to change your perception about music, about
> rap, about self-expression and about sharing... please drop the act
> that something is or has to be wrong when there is absolutely nothing
> wrong!

There seem to be some quasi-objective reasons to think that there are
some fundamental structural differences between varieties of music
that would merit calling some sorts, which have deeper structural
complexities (notably classical and jazz) "superior"  to other sorts
that lack structural complexity and sophistication.

There's something of a gulf between that and monkeys, of course...

> You stand in a place of GRATE ignorance when you judge societies on
> the merits of Rap music, let me remind you many are killed in the name
> or religion?

... And it is in no way obvious that such claims are actually *TRUE.*

- There have been plenty of societies where it is difficult to
unambiguously separate culture from religion from political structure.

- There are few societies so lacking in political nuance that it is
not possible for leaders who are seeking political gain to describe
things in culturally- and religiously-sensitive terms so as to keep
their supporters silent.

During the last decade, the usage of the word "crusade" (which
certainly has a religious nuance) along with flag-waving kept many
Americans standing behind the military actions in Iraq, even though it
seems entirely likely that the *true* purposes of the US
administration had much more to do with projecting power and transfer
of wealth (if nothing else, via the government contracts with
Halliburton for logistical services).

It's not at all obvious that even the original Crusades that this
points back to were forcibly caused by religious principle.  To be
sure, they are associated with "religious piety," and there is an
*immense* amount of noise to suggest such.  But there are PLENTY of
complicating factors.

It was almost certainly convenient to almost all of the political
leaders involved to treat it as a religious conflict; it has been
condemned thus:

"High ideals were besmirched by cruelty and greed ? the Holy War was
nothing more than a long act of intolerance in the name of God". - Sir
Steven Runciman (_A History of the Crusades_)

That it was nominally (and loudly!) done "in the name of God" isn't
nearly an implication that it was actually religious in cause.

> So it's ignorant people who actually causes grief in this world, not
> religion and certainly not rap music or monkey people like me =)

I don't think "ignorant people" tend to have that much power to affect
all the grief.  I think instead that it is *powerful people* who have
the "cruelty and greed" to match that power...
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach  - "Even a stopped clock is right twice a
day." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/marie_von_ebnereschenbac.html
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 19:15:38 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:15:38 -0400
Subject: mysql not visible by drupal install script?
Message-ID: <a05162a70907241215g2a323efcnbd1073769d85f58e@mail.gmail.com>

I am trying to install Drupal downloaded as a tarbar. I have done so
successfully on CentOS but I recall there I ran the install script as
root. On Kubuntu I am using a non-root account. For some reason drupal
can't find me install mysql server?

I've checked that mysql is running as I had to create database for
drupal. Does anyone has any ideas what I have to do?

I know I can install drupal using my package manager, but still I
would like to know what's going on here and how to resolve this?

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 19:30:22 2009
From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:30:22 -0400
Subject: ot: Best URL Shortening Service?
In-Reply-To: <4A69FCE8.9060303-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A69F00A.2050003@utoronto.ca> <20090724182212.GA32019@yam.witteman.ca> <4A69FCE8.9060303@linuxcaffe.ca>
Message-ID: <4A6A0BCE.6000308@mylesbraithwaite.com>

David J Patrick wrote:
> yes, it has been said that url shortening will seriously foul up the 
> future indexing of the interweb. To combat this, use shortnames in 
> your sites, and look for them in other sites, when you link.

If the short url server uses the HTTP status code "301 Moved 
Permanently" this isn't an issue.

See http://bit.ly/LTeDy

Also I suggest bit.ly because it allows anchors and uses the proper 
status code for the redirects.

--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 19:33:13 2009
From: me-qIX3qoPyADtH8hdXm2+x1laTQe2KTcn/ at public.gmane.org (Myles Braithwaite)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:33:13 -0400
Subject: mysql not visible by drupal install script?
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907241215g2a323efcnbd1073769d85f58e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907241215g2a323efcnbd1073769d85f58e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6A0C79.2080504@mylesbraithwaite.com>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> I am trying to install Drupal downloaded as a tarbar. I have done so
> successfully on CentOS but I recall there I ran the install script as
> root. On Kubuntu I am using a non-root account. For some reason drupal
> can't find me install mysql server?
>
> I've checked that mysql is running as I had to create database for
> drupal. Does anyone has any ideas what I have to do?
>
> I know I can install drupal using my package manager, but still I
> would like to know what's going on here and how to resolve this?
>
>   
Do you have logs? What error code is it returning?
--
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How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 19:51:49 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:51:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SIP on a Rogers data plan
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748@castor.opentrend.net>

Hi all.  I'm seriously considering buying a new SIP enabled 3G phone 
(without a plan) and making my calls via SIP/RTP.  I already have an 
Asterisk server and will put in my existing data sim.

So has anyone done this?  I saw reports of problems with SIP on the Rogers 
network dating from 2007 and rumours that they were blocking parts of the 
SIP protocol to make calls impossible.

I will be testing this on the weekend by making SIP calls from my laptop 
over 3G but wondered if anyone actually has this working?

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 20:34:09 2009
From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Kink)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:34:09 -0400
Subject: SIP on a Rogers data plan
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <1eea116a0907241334h6e14734sc8a8189f99406d1c@mail.gmail.com>

I've been using a Nokia E71 on Rogers but I have to say that SIP over 3G is
barely usable - the latency becomes unbearable.

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Robert Brockway
<robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org>wrote:

> Hi all.  I'm seriously considering buying a new SIP enabled 3G phone
> (without a plan) and making my calls via SIP/RTP.  I already have an
> Asterisk server and will put in my existing data sim.
>
> So has anyone done this?  I saw reports of problems with SIP on the Rogers
> network dating from 2007 and rumours that they were blocking parts of the
> SIP protocol to make calls impossible.
>
> I will be testing this on the weekend by making SIP calls from my laptop
> over 3G but wondered if anyone actually has this working?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rob
>
> --
> I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
> Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 20:38:19 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:38:19 -0700
Subject: SIP on a Rogers data plan
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907241338n1be8130g5e2cbf5eb689ff82@mail.gmail.com>

I have an iPhone with "SipPhone" installed, which works very nicely
when on WiFi. Unfortunately it seems that for programs from the
AppStore, usage of SIP through 3G is disabled, so if you're looking to
use an iPhone for this, you may have trouble finding a working app on
an unmodified phone (I tried the google one on a jailbroken phone but
it just crashed all the time unfortunately).

Depending on your phone, you might be able to avoid SIP-blocking
issues by using a tunnel or VPN?



On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Robert
Brockway<robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hi all. ?I'm seriously considering buying a new SIP enabled 3G phone
> (without a plan) and making my calls via SIP/RTP. ?I already have an
> Asterisk server and will put in my existing data sim.
>
> So has anyone done this? ?I saw reports of problems with SIP on the Rogers
> network dating from 2007 and rumours that they were blocking parts of the
> SIP protocol to make calls impossible.
>
> I will be testing this on the weekend by making SIP calls from my laptop
> over 3G but wondered if anyone actually has this working?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rob
>
> --
> I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
> Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 20:46:49 2009
From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Kink)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:46:49 -0400
Subject: SIP on a Rogers data plan
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907241338n1be8130g5e2cbf5eb689ff82-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <3a97ef0907241338n1be8130g5e2cbf5eb689ff82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1eea116a0907241346h65e5f09cp690fa08ce9f6d728@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think Rogers is blocking SIP traffic - the connection itself is just
not as robust.

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Tyler Aviss <tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I have an iPhone with "SipPhone" installed, which works very nicely
> when on WiFi. Unfortunately it seems that for programs from the
> AppStore, usage of SIP through 3G is disabled, so if you're looking to
> use an iPhone for this, you may have trouble finding a working app on
> an unmodified phone (I tried the google one on a jailbroken phone but
> it just crashed all the time unfortunately).
>
> Depending on your phone, you might be able to avoid SIP-blocking
> issues by using a tunnel or VPN?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Robert
> Brockway<robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Hi all.  I'm seriously considering buying a new SIP enabled 3G phone
> > (without a plan) and making my calls via SIP/RTP.  I already have an
> > Asterisk server and will put in my existing data sim.
> >
> > So has anyone done this?  I saw reports of problems with SIP on the
> Rogers
> > network dating from 2007 and rumours that they were blocking parts of the
> > SIP protocol to make calls impossible.
> >
> > I will be testing this on the weekend by making SIP calls from my laptop
> > over 3G but wondered if anyone actually has this working?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > --
> > I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
> > Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Tyler Aviss
> Systems Support
> LPIC/LPIC-2
> (778) 890-0942
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 20:52:23 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:52:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SIP on a Rogers data plan
In-Reply-To: <1eea116a0907241334h6e14734sc8a8189f99406d1c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748@castor.opentrend.net> <1eea116a0907241334h6e14734sc8a8189f99406d1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241650340.8748@castor.opentrend.net>

On Fri, 24 Jul 2009, Alex Kink wrote:

> I've been using a Nokia E71 on Rogers but I have to say that SIP over 3G is
> barely usable - the latency becomes unbearable.

Hmm interesting.  It was in fact the E71 I was considering.  I've 
certainly seen the latency when using ssh over Rogers 3G network. 
Sometimes it is fine, sometimes it is just unusable and the state can 
change from minute to minute.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 20:59:06 2009
From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Kink)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:59:06 -0400
Subject: SIP on a Rogers data plan
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241650340.8748-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <1eea116a0907241334h6e14734sc8a8189f99406d1c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241650340.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <1eea116a0907241359h667d65c5j923439b85722e27@mail.gmail.com>

I have to add that the SIP integration in E71 is awesome. There is no clumsy
3rd party applications (read Fring) that you have to use. If you are using
SIP over WiFi, and all other links are functioning properly (no latency on
ISP, Good SIP provider) then the call quality is superb. Simply dial a
number (or select from address book) and select whether to use GSM or SIP.
You can also set a default connection, so say if you're at home and you dial
a number, it will go through SIP via WiFi and when you're out and about, GSM
will be used.



On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Robert Brockway
<robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org>wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009, Alex Kink wrote:
>
>  I've been using a Nokia E71 on Rogers but I have to say that SIP over 3G
>> is
>> barely usable - the latency becomes unbearable.
>>
>
> Hmm interesting.  It was in fact the E71 I was considering.  I've certainly
> seen the latency when using ssh over Rogers 3G network. Sometimes it is
> fine, sometimes it is just unusable and the state can change from minute to
> minute.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rob
>
> --
> I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
> Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 21:10:50 2009
From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Kink)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:10:50 -0400
Subject: SIP on a Rogers data plan
In-Reply-To: <1eea116a0907241359h667d65c5j923439b85722e27-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <1eea116a0907241334h6e14734sc8a8189f99406d1c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241650340.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <1eea116a0907241359h667d65c5j923439b85722e27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1eea116a0907241410g2cd7fa34q6f11d7d0c7b66fe0@mail.gmail.com>

I have actually taken a different approach to save some money on mobile
calls.

I've subscribed to My5 add-on which allows me to call any number as much as
I want. I've added my asterisk # to My5. Then I've written a basic dialplan
that allows me to dial into asterisk and place a call out from there. This
way all my outbound calls free and I only pay for VoIP charges.

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Alex Kink <alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I have to add that the SIP integration in E71 is awesome. There is no
> clumsy 3rd party applications (read Fring) that you have to use. If you are
> using SIP over WiFi, and all other links are functioning properly (no
> latency on ISP, Good SIP provider) then the call quality is superb. Simply
> dial a number (or select from address book) and select whether to use GSM or
> SIP. You can also set a default connection, so say if you're at home and you
> dial a number, it will go through SIP via WiFi and when you're out and
> about, GSM will be used.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Robert Brockway <robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org
> > wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009, Alex Kink wrote:
>>
>>  I've been using a Nokia E71 on Rogers but I have to say that SIP over 3G
>>> is
>>> barely usable - the latency becomes unbearable.
>>>
>>
>> Hmm interesting.  It was in fact the E71 I was considering.  I've
>> certainly seen the latency when using ssh over Rogers 3G network. Sometimes
>> it is fine, sometimes it is just unusable and the state can change from
>> minute to minute.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> --
>> I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
>> Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>
>
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From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 24 23:10:22 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:10:22 -0400
Subject: mysql not visible by drupal install script?
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907241215g2a323efcnbd1073769d85f58e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907241215g2a323efcnbd1073769d85f58e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6A3F5E.2090501@dinamis.com>

On 24/07/09 03:15 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> I am trying to install Drupal downloaded as a tarbar. I have done so
> successfully on CentOS but I recall there I ran the install script as
> root. On Kubuntu I am using a non-root account. For some reason drupal
> can't find me install mysql server?
> 
> I've checked that mysql is running as I had to create database for
> drupal. Does anyone has any ideas what I have to do?
> 
> I know I can install drupal using my package manager, but still I
> would like to know what's going on here and how to resolve this?

You can always modify your settings.php file manually. Look for the
string "$db_url" and you'll find the format.

By the way, unless you absolutely must run MySQL, there is no reason to
not run PostgreSQL with Drupal 6 any more. With Drupal 5, core was
(mostly) fine but the PG support of contributed modules often consisted of:

// TODO

We're running and hosting many D6 sites with a large variety of contrib
modules and have run into very few issues, certainly nothing that can't
be easily resolved.
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 00:37:18 2009
From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:37:18 -0400
Subject: chipped in parts
In-Reply-To: <4A69F7C3.9040607-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>  <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>  <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>  <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>  <4A69D424.4020702@gmail.com> <a05162a70907240938m51359aabq9e1739db1b446b57@mail.gmail.com> <4A69E995.4070906@gmail.com> <1248456090.4a69ed9ac69d1@webmail.golden.net> <4A69F7C3.9040607@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6A53BE.6010504@golden.net>

Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
> Someone is going to hang me for changing the subject not in the right 
> way... But I forgot how was that the right way...
>
> You think I remember your name? Please be forgiving, my dear friend.
>
> I do remember situations, not names or faces. It was.. when? Quite a 
> few years ago. Perhaps four? Or five? You were the one who left me 
> motherboard? We met perhaps on Jarvis? Please confirm.
> I know, it sounds not very realistic - but.. anyone who wants to visit 
> me in Russia - please come. You pay travel tickets and akll the rest 
> is my problem. Even though my present salary at university is around 
> 300 CAD monthly.
>
> That motherboard helped me to survive. Did you know? It helped me to 
> survive. I still have it! I use now another computer, also very cheap 
> though powerful.
>
> Did you all know that I, with PhD in Physics from Netherlands, and a 
> postdoc at Dalhousie had to live on streets of Toronto? And doing very 
> dirty jobs for very low money just to survive? I never ever was able 
> to get a decent life opportunities in Canada. For 14 years of living 
> in Canada. Why a shit I had to go to Russia for living after I lost my 
> job? Do you think this is normal? Ask there yourself. Ask yourself 
> also why so many educated people are on streets and doing poor and 
> hard jobs barely able to survive.
>
> I was on streets of Toronto in summer 1998. I will never ever forget 
> that.
>
> zb.
>
Well sorry too for the thread change.

Wow that is awful. I'm sorry to here things did not work out. You seem 
very intelligent individual however language barriers sometimes can 
really taint a persons perspective. I'm quite sure you didn't mean to 
start what happen but what's done is done. I wasn't offended but hey I'm 
white with lot's of first nation blood in me. I was confused mind you.

As a Canadian citizen I am quite appalled by how some skilled immigrants 
are treated. There was a time where he high commission would tell anyone 
anything. How often do we hear of the taxi driver that is a Doctors  
etc. I bet you were told there were lots of job too?

BTW I was the one that brought you parts to where you were working.

Take care and hope things turn for the better for you.

John

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 00:57:26 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:57:26 -0700
Subject: chipped in parts
In-Reply-To: <4A6A53BE.6010504-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>  <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>  <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>  <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>  <4A69D424.4020702@gmail.com> <a05162a70907240938m51359aabq9e1739db1b446b57@mail.gmail.com> <4A69E995.4070906@gmail.com> <1248456090.4a69ed9ac69d1@webmail.golden.net> <4A69F7C3.9040607@gmail.com> <4A6A53BE.6010504@golden.net>
Message-ID: <B01E1E91-9DEF-4FBA-82D0-2F8A47CD39BA@gmail.com>



(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 24-Jul-09, at 5:37 PM, John Myshrall <jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Zbigniew Koziol wrote:
>> Someone is going to hang me for changing the subject not in the  
>> right way... But I forgot how was that the right way...
>>
>> You think I remember your name? Please be forgiving, my dear friend.
>>
>> I do remember situations, not names or faces. It was.. when? Quite  
>> a few years ago. Perhaps four? Or five? You were the one who left  
>> me motherboard? We met perhaps on Jarvis? Please confirm.
>> I know, it sounds not very realistic - but.. anyone who wants to  
>> visit me in Russia - please come. You pay travel tickets and akll  
>> the rest is my problem. Even though my present salary at university  
>> is around 300 CAD monthly.
>>
>> That motherboard helped me to survive. Did you know? It helped me  
>> to survive. I still have it! I use now another computer, also very  
>> cheap though powerful.
>>
>> Did you all know that I, with PhD in Physics from Netherlands, and  
>> a postdoc at Dalhousie had to live on streets of Toronto? And doing  
>> very dirty jobs for very low money just to survive? I never ever  
>> was able to get a decent life opportunities in Canada. For 14 years  
>> of living in Canada. Why a shit I had to go to Russia for living  
>> after I lost my job? Do you think this is normal? Ask there  
>> yourself. Ask yourself also why so many educated people are on  
>> streets and doing poor and hard jobs barely able to survive.
>>
>> I was on streets of Toronto in summer 1998. I will never ever  
>> forget that.
>>
>> zb.
>>
> Well sorry too for the thread change.
>
> Wow that is awful. I'm sorry to here things did not work out. You  
> seem very intelligent individual however language barriers sometimes  
> can really taint a persons perspective. I'm quite sure you didn't  
> mean to start what happen but what's done is done. I wasn't offended  
> but hey I'm white with lot's of first nation blood in me. I was  
> confused mind you.
>
> As a Canadian citizen I am quite appalled by how some skilled  
> immigrants are treated. There was a time where he high commission  
> would tell anyone anything. How often do we hear of the taxi driver  
> that is a Doctors  etc. I bet you were told there were lots of job  
> too?
>
> BTW I was the one that brought you parts to where you were working.
>
> Take care and hope things turn for the better for you.
>
> John
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

The Doctor driving a taxi isn't the worst of it either. My girlfriend  
(Chinese /w degree in Accounting and masters in Business) attended  
several interviews where she went through series of tests and then was  
told "you did well, but if you want a job pay us $X to "train" you and  
then you can work from home online, or take another test and work here  
(yeah right). The worst was a LAWYER who offered her $30/day for 4h of  
bookkeeping (below minimum wage) after grilling her with questions  
about her Canadian status, family/relationship, etc

We would like to think that our country is fair and equitable and that  
there was some organization to address these concerns, but I found  
nothing. Sure, you can get a pass into the country as a skilled  
worker, but then can't find a job in your market without taking min  
wage or worse. It's bad fir immigrants, and bad for locals as it  
drives overall wages down as *somebody* is willing to take that cut  
just to pay the bills, and many don't know the laws on such things
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 01:27:47 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:27:47 -0400
Subject: mysql not visible by drupal install script?
In-Reply-To: <4A6A3F5E.2090501-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907241215g2a323efcnbd1073769d85f58e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6A3F5E.2090501@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907241827o310f043cx409d324d05aa4a81@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:10 PM, CLIFFORD
ILKAY<clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 24/07/09 03:15 PM, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> I am trying to install Drupal downloaded as a tarbar. I have done so
>> successfully on CentOS but I recall there I ran the install script as
>> root. On Kubuntu I am using a non-root account. For some reason drupal
>> can't find me install mysql server?
>>
>> I've checked that mysql is running as I had to create database for
>> drupal. Does anyone has any ideas what I have to do?
>>
>> I know I can install drupal using my package manager, but still I
>> would like to know what's going on here and how to resolve this?
>
> You can always modify your settings.php file manually. Look for the
> string "$db_url" and you'll find the format.
>
> By the way, unless you absolutely must run MySQL, there is no reason to
> not run PostgreSQL with Drupal 6 any more. With Drupal 5, core was
> (mostly) fine but the PG support of contributed modules often consisted of:
>
> // TODO
>
> We're running and hosting many D6 sites with a large variety of contrib
> modules and have run into very few issues, certainly nothing that can't
> be easily resolved.
> --
> Regards,
>
> Clifford Ilkay
> Dinamis
> 1419-3266 Yonge St.
> Toronto, ON
> Canada ?M4N 3P6

Hi Clifford,

thanks for your suggestion, I gave it a shot and that led me to
discover I was missing the php-mysql module =P

I installed it and restarted apache and now I see the database setup page!

btw, this is just a local install as I am learning how to program a
drupal website.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 02:29:52 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:29:52 -0400
Subject: chipped in parts
In-Reply-To: <4A69F7C3.9040607-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907221934v5f1e2317g61d920a5df6a3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907222103m671fc536p801421e33f7e1884@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A684F54.8070907@gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907240804p38e6f921v25e99f4d559c1275@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A69D424.4020702@gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907240938m51359aabq9e1739db1b446b57@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A69E995.4070906@gmail.com>
	 <1248456090.4a69ed9ac69d1@webmail.golden.net>
	 <4A69F7C3.9040607@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907241929t7b9183e6mc669a1a586f78a85@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Zbigniew Koziol<softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Someone is going to hang me for changing the subject not in the right way...
> But I forgot how was that the right way...
>
> You think I remember your name? Please be forgiving, my dear friend.
>
> I do remember situations, not names or faces. It was.. when? Quite a few
> years ago. Perhaps four? Or five? You were the one who left me motherboard?
> We met perhaps on Jarvis? Please confirm.
> I know, it sounds not very realistic - but.. anyone who wants to visit me in
> Russia - please come. You pay travel tickets and akll the rest is my
> problem. Even though my present salary at university is around 300 CAD
> monthly.
>
> That motherboard helped me to survive. Did you know? It helped me to
> survive. I still have it! I use now another computer, also very cheap though
> powerful.
>
> Did you all know that I, with PhD in Physics from Netherlands, and a postdoc
> at Dalhousie had to live on streets of Toronto? And doing very dirty jobs
> for very low money just to survive? I never ever was able to get a decent
> life opportunities in Canada. For 14 years of living in Canada. Why a shit I
> had to go to Russia for living after I lost my job? Do you think this is
> normal? Ask there yourself. Ask yourself also why so many educated people
> are on streets and doing poor and hard jobs barely able to survive.
>
> I was on streets of Toronto in summer 1998. I will never ever forget that.
>
> zb.
>
> jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org wrote:
>>
>> Quoting Zbigniew Koziol <softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Rajinder,
>>>
>>> We are over! This discussion is done!
>>>
>>> Otherwise Evan may come and teach us religion. So, take care and write
>>> since now on Linux subjects.
>>>
>>> I can not come to your seminar (I would love to). I live now (God knows
>>>
>>> for how long) in Orel, which is 400 km south-west of Moscow in Russia.
>>> You all there may wonder how is that possible that a Canadian citizen who is
>>> of Polish origin (and Polish as a whole in fact consider Russia as an enemy)
>>> lives in Russia? Well... I ask that question myself...
>>>
>>> zb.

ZB can I please ask you to forget the past and stop living in the
past? You lived in the street in 1998 and it was probably the lowest
point in your life. That has happened the past is dead, what matters
is now and what you are able to make of it.

You did not have anyone here to support you like family or friends,
that is not your fault or anyone else. When hard time came your way,
you were forced onto the streets, I get that but I will not feel sorry
for you. I don't think you need anyones pity!

Did you ever watch the movie "The Pursuit of Happyness?" it is a true
life story like yours. Just never stop believe in yourself, if you
have not watch the movie and can find it in Russia I ask you to rent
and watch it... it will make anyone cry! I am sure you will find it
difficult as you will see moments with your past but it's a story
about victory, one that you must continue to live for ZB, that is all
I can offer you my friend. As I said earlier you are a great leader,
unfortunately you don't know want I mean and think I am just saying
words, I can see it, but right now you can't see what I am telling
you! I will have to find out if the class I am taking is available in
Russia and possibly you can attend a free seminar there and I am
certain it will chance your outlook on what is possible even if your
circumstance do not change!

Take good care my friend =) ... all my blessings!!!

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 03:40:24 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 23:40:24 -0400
Subject: SIP on a Rogers data plan
In-Reply-To: <1eea116a0907241410g2cd7fa34q6f11d7d0c7b66fe0-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <1eea116a0907241334h6e14734sc8a8189f99406d1c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241650340.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <1eea116a0907241359h667d65c5j923439b85722e27@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1eea116a0907241410g2cd7fa34q6f11d7d0c7b66fe0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907242040p281f6463j3f9f42b56eca7e42@mail.gmail.com>

OK, so as I understand it this means you have:

cellular phone with MY5 plan
asterisk box with a local #
VOIP account with a good plan to which the asterisk box is tied

Sounds like a neat idea.

Might I ask who your VOIP provider is, and what rates do you get?
What's your average bill like combining the cost of the VOIP DID and
cellphone?





On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Alex Kink<alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I have actually taken a different approach to save some money on mobile
> calls.
>
> I've subscribed to My5 add-on which allows me to call any number as much as
> I want. I've added my asterisk # to My5. Then I've written a basic dialplan
> that allows me to dial into asterisk and place a call out from there. This
> way all my outbound calls free and I only pay for VoIP charges.
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Alex Kink <alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>> I have to add that the SIP integration in E71 is awesome. There is no
>> clumsy 3rd party applications (read Fring) that you have to use. If you are
>> using SIP over WiFi, and all other links are functioning properly (no
>> latency on ISP, Good SIP provider) then the call quality is superb. Simply
>> dial a number (or select from address book) and select whether to use GSM or
>> SIP. You can also set a default connection, so say if you're at home and you
>> dial a number, it will go through SIP via WiFi and when you're out and
>> about, GSM will be used.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Robert Brockway
>> <robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009, Alex Kink wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've been using a Nokia E71 on Rogers but I have to say that SIP over 3G
>>>> is
>>>> barely usable - the latency becomes unbearable.
>>>
>>> Hmm interesting. ?It was in fact the E71 I was considering. ?I've
>>> certainly seen the latency when using ssh over Rogers 3G network. Sometimes
>>> it is fine, sometimes it is just unusable and the state can change from
>>> minute to minute.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> --
>>> I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
>>> Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
>>> --
>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 12:41:32 2009
From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 08:41:32 -0400
Subject: scp problem
Message-ID: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram@295.ca>

I've been trying to chase down why SCP has suddenly refused to work between my 
two MEPIS Linux boxes here.

I can ssh from either direction.

When I try something like

scp myfile 192.168.1.101:/tmp

it prompts me for the password and then echos the line I put at the bottom of 
my .bashrc on the remote box (192.168.1.101) and returns without any copy 
happening.

echo $?

returns a 1 which I believe is an error.

If I repeat the command with the -v option I can't see any obvious error,   
just that no copy actually happens.    In fact with the -v option on the last 
debug line says return code 0 ... which appears to contradict $?.    The 
debug stuff says that the command it is sending is "scp -v -t /tmp" ... that 
also looks curious to me.

Thanks in advance for your help.

bob
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 13:30:05 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:30:05 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com>

Hi

I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.

I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?

I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks and cheers :-)

Meng
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 16:40:25 2009
From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Kink)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:40:25 -0400
Subject: Freebie: Mobo/CPU/RAM
Message-ID: <1eea116a0907250940gc2061aesa8b0807ad49f3746@mail.gmail.com>

I have an MSI-7142 Motherboard with an AMD Sempron CPU (Don't know the spec)
and 512MB of RAM.

This hardware has been running Ubuntu for last few years. Good as a basic
web browsing hardware.

You'll have to pick it up from my office at Sheppard W & Allen Rd.

Drop me a line if you are interested.

Regards,
Alex Kink
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 16:49:55 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:49:55 -0400
Subject: scp problem
In-Reply-To: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907250949s443a4473kd9871ee52176680c@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 8:41 AM, bob 295<icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I've been trying to chase down why SCP has suddenly refused to work between my
> two MEPIS Linux boxes here.
>
> I can ssh from either direction.
>
> When I try something like
>
> scp myfile 192.168.1.101:/tmp
>
> it prompts me for the password and then echos the line I put at the bottom of
> my .bashrc on the remote box (192.168.1.101) and returns without any copy
> happening.
>
> echo $?
>
> returns a 1 which I believe is an error.
>
> If I repeat the command with the -v option I can't see any obvious error,
> just that no copy actually happens. ? ?In fact with the -v option on the last
> debug line says return code 0 ... which appears to contradict $?. ? ?The
> debug stuff says that the command it is sending is "scp -v -t /tmp" ... that
> also looks curious to me.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> bob
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

Just curious if you tried copying using rsycn would you get the same
result? Possibly the answer to this might shed some light for other to
help you out with scp.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 17:03:30 2009
From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:03:30 -0500
Subject: scp problem
In-Reply-To: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <a3ed2cba0907251003q7efc42ek2adf582824baa424@mail.gmail.com>

Seeing as you appear to be using DHCP (level C private IP  addresses tend to
be a give-away), are you sure that neither DHCP lease has expired and it's
user been reassigned to a different address?

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 7:41 AM, bob 295 <icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I've been trying to chase down why SCP has suddenly refused to work between
> my
> two MEPIS Linux boxes here.
>
> I can ssh from either direction.
>
> When I try something like
>
> scp myfile 192.168.1.101:/tmp
>
> it prompts me for the password and then echos the line I put at the bottom
> of
> my .bashrc on the remote box (192.168.1.101) and returns without any copy
> happening.
>
> echo $?
>
> returns a 1 which I believe is an error.
>
> If I repeat the command with the -v option I can't see any obvious error,
> just that no copy actually happens.    In fact with the -v option on the
> last
> debug line says return code 0 ... which appears to contradict $?.    The
> debug stuff says that the command it is sending is "scp -v -t /tmp" ...
> that
> also looks curious to me.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> bob
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 19:36:42 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:36:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: scp problem
In-Reply-To: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907251522200.6744@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: bob 295 <icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org>

| scp myfile 192.168.1.101:/tmp

Does adding a / at the end make a difference?  Probably not, but that
is what I would have typed.
	scp myfile 192.168.1.101:/tmp/

Is there already a file or directory named myfile in /tmp on the remote machine?

| it prompts me for the password and then echos the line I put at the bottom of 
| my .bashrc on the remote box (192.168.1.101) and returns without any copy 
| happening.
| 
| echo $?

Is this echo on the local side or at the end of the remote's .bashrc?

Is there no diagnostic message printed?

Can you copy it somewhere else (like your home directory)?

|     The 
| debug stuff says that the command it is sending is "scp -v -t /tmp" ... that 
| also looks curious to me.

That appears to be normal.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 19:59:08 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:59:08 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907251259l6a401e12j343eeb9c1a825d4e@mail.gmail.com>

EXT2fs on windows is OK,with the odd permissions quirk.
Functionality-wise, NTFS-3g on Linux is good, but I've noticed that
running the NTFS-3G/fuse layer actually consumes a noticeably large
amount of CPU on older machines, so performance-wise not so good (I
think it may be a general FUSE thing due to the userland component).


On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 9:30 AM, meng<meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
>
> I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
> As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
> Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
>
> I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
> Any help will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks and cheers :-)
>
> Meng
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 20:01:38 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:01:38 -0400
Subject: scp problem
In-Reply-To: <a3ed2cba0907251003q7efc42ek2adf582824baa424-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram@295.ca>
	 <a3ed2cba0907251003q7efc42ek2adf582824baa424@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907251301p581160fcm8df7bc1c6f2464c3@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 1:03 PM, colin davidson<colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Seeing as you appear to be using DHCP (level C private IP? addresses tend to
> be a give-away), are you sure that neither DHCP lease has expired and it's
> user been reassigned to a different address?
>
Eh? Why would a level-C address be any less likely to be assigned by a
static interfaces entry than DHCP? I've got both a block of DHCP
entries and statics on my networks.


> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 7:41 AM, bob 295 <icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>> I've been trying to chase down why SCP has suddenly refused to work
>> between my
>> two MEPIS Linux boxes here.
>>
>> I can ssh from either direction.
>>
>> When I try something like
>>
>> scp myfile 192.168.1.101:/tmp
>>
>> it prompts me for the password and then echos the line I put at the bottom
>> of
>> my .bashrc on the remote box (192.168.1.101) and returns without any copy
>> happening.
>>
>> echo $?
>>
>> returns a 1 which I believe is an error.
>>
>> If I repeat the command with the -v option I can't see any obvious error,
>> just that no copy actually happens. ? ?In fact with the -v option on the
>> last
>> debug line says return code 0 ... which appears to contradict $?. ? ?The
>> debug stuff says that the command it is sending is "scp -v -t /tmp" ...
>> that
>> also looks curious to me.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>> bob
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 20:10:50 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:10:50 -0400
Subject: Geek humor
In-Reply-To: <200907240149.10573.tim-Ww2BJfnxIYteoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
References: <3a97ef0907231035y511b0997m871e62d697c0cc37@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090723134258.rtedke6mo8ccs44s@easymail.pathcom.com>
	 <20090723193042.GK2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <200907240149.10573.tim@xxvii.net>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907251310j7e4cf65g1fb991a15941e9da@mail.gmail.com>

Code-monkey was pretty good, and the mad scientist a mixture of
amusing and creepy (which seems to be the intent, of course).
It's interesting how much "emotion" people seem to get out of the
scripted WOW responses, and how WOW has replaced anime/cartoons
(AMV's) for overdubbed musical numbers.
Maybe one day 3d rendering apps will be easy enough to use (and/or
free meshes prolific) that people can make their own videos from
scratch.



On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:49 AM, Tim Middleton<tim-Ww2BJfnxIYteoWH0uzbU5w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I discovered Jonathan Coulton on "the sixtyone" some weeks ago. If anyone's
> interested in supporting his geekiness you can do it there either by giving
> him "hearts" (which makes his songs rise in the ranks to get more exposure) or
> with tips (ie. actual money).
>
> I particularly like the song "Re: your brains". I like "Code Monkey" too,
> though it's shamelessly packed with horrendous techie/programmer cliches. I
> think the most interesting thing about it was his decision to write the lyrics
> in a sort of "cave man"/primitive/tarzan-like dialect... i think that subtle
> element says more than the actual song does... and it works... (i think)...
> conveys the feeling I think a lot of us techies have of not being able to
> communicate properly to "normal" people... or should I say rather that
> "normal" people can't seem to understand understand our sensible explanations
> for things and think we're barely speaking english half the time when we do
> talk to them... so they view us as sort of primitive proto-humans who mostly
> just talk to/like machines. Or perhaps that's just me. <-:
>
> He has quite a few songs posted there. Most of them are downloadable with a
> creative commons license.... which is pretty cool (you must admit).
>
> http://www.thesixtyone.com/new/#/jonathancoulton/
>
> It's a pretty interesting site in general. They've tried to create a site
> where independent musicians can post/share/sell their music, and engage users
> in various ways.
>
> The most interesting part (to me) is how they've made a (optional) quasi-
> adventure game for users to encourage exploring new music... if you explore
> the interface. If you start to explore, it quickly gets addictive... it's
> quite clever how they've done that.
>
> Shameless plug: If you check it out and feel like signing up for an account
> (so you can give Jonathan some love) feel free to use my referral URL below...
> (-: I don't get anything from it except a few "reputation points" ... which
> are worthless, but fun to collect (as part of the game-like system the site
> incorporates). You'd be helping me complete the "Evangelist" quest! Wheee.
>
> http://www.thesixtyone.com/?referred_by_username=timtoo
>
>
>
> On Thursday 23 July 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote to tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org:
>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 01:42:58PM -0400, Phillip Mills wrote:
>> > Most of my geek humour infusions come from music. ?If you're not already
>> > familiar with it, I'd suggest going to YouTube and looking for: jonathan
>> > coulton code monkey
>>
>> Or "Still alive" or "skullcrusher mountain" or "mandelbrot set", or for
>> less geeky and just plain weird try "Mr. fancy pants".
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 21:25:06 2009
From: alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Kink)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:25:06 -0400
Subject: SIP on a Rogers data plan
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907242040p281f6463j3f9f42b56eca7e42-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241548210.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <1eea116a0907241334h6e14734sc8a8189f99406d1c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907241650340.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <1eea116a0907241359h667d65c5j923439b85722e27@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1eea116a0907241410g2cd7fa34q6f11d7d0c7b66fe0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <3a97ef0907242040p281f6463j3f9f42b56eca7e42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1eea116a0907251425h3343e4acm6a249f6490d39757@mail.gmail.com>

I'm using 2 VoIP providers - Unlimitel and vBuzzer.

90% of time I'm using vBuzzer which is a flat fee service ($15/month +
$25/year for number)
Sometimes vBuzzer is down and then asterisk automatically uses Unlimitel
trunk which is a $90/10,000min service. The unlimitel trunk I use for
business and we put through around 12,000min per month on it - I highly
recommend it for business.

In terms of cellphone bill, I have 150min a month outbound + Unlimited
evenings and weekends + Unlimited incoming + CanadaWide My5. For this
portion of the service I pay $50. I have never exceeded the 150min monthly
limit, yet my last bill had a total of 2417 minutes.

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Tyler Aviss <tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> OK, so as I understand it this means you have:
>
> cellular phone with MY5 plan
> asterisk box with a local #
> VOIP account with a good plan to which the asterisk box is tied
>
> Sounds like a neat idea.
>
> Might I ask who your VOIP provider is, and what rates do you get?
> What's your average bill like combining the cost of the VOIP DID and
> cellphone?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Alex Kink<alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > I have actually taken a different approach to save some money on mobile
> > calls.
> >
> > I've subscribed to My5 add-on which allows me to call any number as much
> as
> > I want. I've added my asterisk # to My5. Then I've written a basic
> dialplan
> > that allows me to dial into asterisk and place a call out from there.
> This
> > way all my outbound calls free and I only pay for VoIP charges.
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Alex Kink <alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have to add that the SIP integration in E71 is awesome. There is no
> >> clumsy 3rd party applications (read Fring) that you have to use. If you
> are
> >> using SIP over WiFi, and all other links are functioning properly (no
> >> latency on ISP, Good SIP provider) then the call quality is superb.
> Simply
> >> dial a number (or select from address book) and select whether to use
> GSM or
> >> SIP. You can also set a default connection, so say if you're at home and
> you
> >> dial a number, it will go through SIP via WiFi and when you're out and
> >> about, GSM will be used.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Robert Brockway
> >> <robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009, Alex Kink wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I've been using a Nokia E71 on Rogers but I have to say that SIP over
> 3G
> >>>> is
> >>>> barely usable - the latency becomes unbearable.
> >>>
> >>> Hmm interesting.  It was in fact the E71 I was considering.  I've
> >>> certainly seen the latency when using ssh over Rogers 3G network.
> Sometimes
> >>> it is fine, sometimes it is just unusable and the state can change from
> >>> minute to minute.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Rob
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
> >>> Projected IPv4 exhaustion:
> http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
> >>> --
> >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Tyler Aviss
> Systems Support
> LPIC/LPIC-2
> (778) 890-0942
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sat Jul 25 22:40:13 2009
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:40:13 -0400
Subject: [OT]: RMS on How the Swedish Pirate Party Platform Backfires on Free 
	Software
Message-ID: <99a6c38f0907251540w75c1ce12h6d820e398167e8df@mail.gmail.com>

"The bullying of the copyright industry in Sweden inspired the launch
of the first political party whose platform is to reduce copyright
restrictions: the Pirate Party. Its platform includes the prohibition
of Digital Restrictions Management, legalization of noncommercial
sharing of published works, and shortening of copyright for commercial
use to a five-year period. Five years after publication, any published
work would go into the public domain."

"I support these changes, in general; but the specific combination
chosen by the Swedish Pirate Party backfires ironically in the special
case of free software. I'm sure that they did not intend to hurt free
software, but that's what would happen."

Possible solutions are included in the complete article at:
  http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pirate-party.html

-- 
  Scott Elcomb
  http://www.psema4.com/   @psema4
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 26 01:48:53 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:48:53 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <91645ab5c8c6e1165ea8033d1f7a9e90@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: Tyler Aviss tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:59:08 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs

> EXT2fs on windows is OK,with the odd permissions quirk.
> Functionality-wise, NTFS-3g on Linux is good, but I've noticed that
> running the NTFS-3G/fuse layer actually consumes a noticeably large
> amount of CPU on older machines, so performance-wise not so good (I
> think it may be a general FUSE thing due to the userland component).

Thanks, Tyler.

I haven't noticed any permissions quirks with ext2ifs but then I've used it only once to see if it worked :-)

I been using ntfs-3g but did not notice any overhead but then I wasn't looking.
I'll check using top and see.

Thanks again for the heads up.

Meng



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The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 26 01:58:49 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:58:49 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <91645ab5c8c6e1165ea8033d1f7a9e90-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <91645ab5c8c6e1165ea8033d1f7a9e90@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907251858h25cc0fe6v2a131ea21a9c1e68@mail.gmail.com>

Well,mine was a combination.
I have a little box with a 1.5Ghz C-7 processor that runs as my NAT
box and fileserver. I had to dump some files to it recently from a USB
drive, and noticed that it was pinging. I discovered that it was
running "hot" with around 98% CPU utilization.

In addition to my normal running processes, the excess was mainly
rsync, ntfs-3g, and probably the software MD syncing up all that new
data too. The NTFS part was noticable though, between 20-30%
utilization at times.

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 9:48 PM, meng<meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> -----Original message-----
> From: Tyler Aviss tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:59:08 -0400
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
>
>> EXT2fs on windows is OK,with the odd permissions quirk.
>> Functionality-wise, NTFS-3g on Linux is good, but I've noticed that
>> running the NTFS-3G/fuse layer actually consumes a noticeably large
>> amount of CPU on older machines, so performance-wise not so good (I
>> think it may be a general FUSE thing due to the userland component).
>
> Thanks, Tyler.
>
> I haven't noticed any permissions quirks with ext2ifs but then I've used it only once to see if it worked :-)
>
> I been using ntfs-3g but did not notice any overhead but then I wasn't looking.
> I'll check using top and see.
>
> Thanks again for the heads up.
>
> Meng
>
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 26 12:00:45 2009
From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 08:00:45 -0400
Subject: scp problem
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907251522200.6744-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram@295.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907251522200.6744@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <200907260800.46770.icanprogram@295.ca>

On Saturday 25 July 2009 03:36 pm, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> | From: bob 295 <icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org>
> |
> | scp myfile 192.168.1.101:/tmp
>
> Does adding a / at the end make a difference?  Probably not, but that
> is what I would have typed.
> 	scp myfile 192.168.1.101:/tmp/
>
> Is there already a file or directory named myfile in /tmp on the remote
> machine?
>
> | it prompts me for the password and then echos the line I put at the
> | bottom of my .bashrc on the remote box (192.168.1.101) and returns
> | without any copy happening.
> |
> | echo $?
>
> Is this echo on the local side or at the end of the remote's .bashrc?
>
> Is there no diagnostic message printed?
>
> Can you copy it somewhere else (like your home directory)?
>
> |     The
> | debug stuff says that the command it is sending is "scp -v -t /tmp" ...
> | that also looks curious to me.
>
> That appears to be normal.
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

He's the exact sequence that I tried with this accompanying debug file.

i) I brought up both Mepis boxes.

box1 - 192.168.1.101 (as determined by running ifconfig)
box2 - 192.168.1.103

The .bashrc on box1 contains a line at the end which says:

echo "hi bob from box 1"

ii) since ssh is not running by default I su root and type

/etc/init.d/ssh start

on box 1

iii) on box 2 I verified that ssh was in fact open by typing

	ssh 192.168.1.101

and logging in to see the echo prompt above.

I then typed 

	exit

to come back to the box2 console.

iv) still on box 2 I went to /tmp and ran

date > bob1

to create a file called bob1

v) I then typed

scp -v  bob1 192.168.1.101:/tmp/   1>junk 2>&1

to get the debug file attached.

No file named bob1 appears in /tmp on box1,  however,  even though I get 
prompted for the box1 password and see the .bashrc echo line from box1 on my 
screen.

Thanks once again in advance for any help you can offer.

bob



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From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 26 14:14:02 2009
From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:14:02 -0400
Subject: scp problem
In-Reply-To: <200907260800.46770.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram@295.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907251522200.6744@redclaw.mimosa.com> <200907260800.46770.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <4A6C64AA.6050802@utoronto.ca>

bob 295 wrote:
> He's the exact sequence that I tried with this accompanying debug file.
> 
> i) I brought up both Mepis boxes.
> 
> box1 - 192.168.1.101 (as determined by running ifconfig)
> box2 - 192.168.1.103
> 
> The .bashrc on box1 contains a line at the end which says:
> 
> echo "hi bob from box 1"
> 
> ii) since ssh is not running by default I su root and type
> 
> /etc/init.d/ssh start
> 
> on box 1
> 
> iii) on box 2 I verified that ssh was in fact open by typing
> 
> 	ssh 192.168.1.101
> 
> and logging in to see the echo prompt above.
> 
> I then typed 
> 
> 	exit
> 
> to come back to the box2 console.
> 
> iv) still on box 2 I went to /tmp and ran
> 
> date > bob1
> 
> to create a file called bob1
> 
> v) I then typed
> 
> scp -v  bob1 192.168.1.101:/tmp/   1>junk 2>&1
> 
> to get the debug file attached.
> 
> No file named bob1 appears in /tmp on box1,  however,  even though I get 
> prompted for the box1 password and see the .bashrc echo line from box1 on my 
> screen.
> 
> Thanks once again in advance for any help you can offer.

Add this to your .bashrc: [ -z "$PS1" ] && return

That or remove the echo statement. Tools like scp, sftp, rsync over ssh 
etc. rely on having sane output from the remote shell (nothing custom), 
see http://www.openssh.com/faq.html#2.9 for more.

Jamon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 26 17:46:51 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:46:51 -0400
Subject: Freebie: Mobo/CPU/RAM
In-Reply-To: <1eea116a0907250940gc2061aesa8b0807ad49f3746-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1eea116a0907250940gc2061aesa8b0807ad49f3746@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907261046k6ee44db7w87ec64419bf87dc6@mail.gmail.com>

I would be delighted to get this and could come by Monday afternoon.

Thanks.

Colin McGregor

On 7/25/09, Alex Kink <alexkink-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I have an MSI-7142 Motherboard with an AMD Sempron CPU (Don't know the spec)
> and 512MB of RAM.
>
> This hardware has been running Ubuntu for last few years. Good as a basic
> web browsing hardware.
>
> You'll have to pick it up from my office at Sheppard W & Allen Rd.
>
> Drop me a line if you are interested.
>
> Regards,
> Alex Kink
>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 26 21:42:41 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:42:41 -0400
Subject: root partition move
Message-ID: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>

A while back I saved my linux partition using a rescue disk along with
partimage.
I recently did a restore of the system without any issues just to
verify the process, because I like to tinker with stuff =)

I am wondering though, would it be possible to move the root partition
to another partition during the restore? What would be required to
tell the kernel to use say /dev/sdb2 instead of /dev/sdb8 to mount
root? a simple change to /etc/fstab?

Would the partition move break any other programs from running, or
linkage i.e. /etc/ld.so.conf? or is stuff in here pretty self
contained to the file structure layout irrelevant to what partition
it's mounted on?  I would think is the case.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 26 21:52:16 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:52:16 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>

Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> A while back I saved my linux partition using a rescue disk along with
> partimage.
> I recently did a restore of the system without any issues just to
> verify the process, because I like to tinker with stuff =)
>
> I am wondering though, would it be possible to move the root partition
> to another partition during the restore? What would be required to
> tell the kernel to use say /dev/sdb2 instead of /dev/sdb8 to mount
> root? a simple change to /etc/fstab?
>
> Would the partition move break any other programs from running, or
> linkage i.e. /etc/ld.so.conf? or is stuff in here pretty self
> contained to the file structure layout irrelevant to what partition
> it's mounted on?  I would think is the case.
>
>   
That should be OK, but you'll have to edit /etc/fstab, to reflect the
changes.

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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 26 22:08:31 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:08:31 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <4A6CD010.4040700-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907261508r2f2bc846v5e637a58a5d9c759@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 5:52 PM, James Knott<james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> A while back I saved my linux partition using a rescue disk along with
>> partimage.
>> I recently did a restore of the system without any issues just to
>> verify the process, because I like to tinker with stuff =)
>>
>> I am wondering though, would it be possible to move the root partition
>> to another partition during the restore? What would be required to
>> tell the kernel to use say /dev/sdb2 instead of /dev/sdb8 to mount
>> root? a simple change to /etc/fstab?
>>
>> Would the partition move break any other programs from running, or
>> linkage i.e. /etc/ld.so.conf? or is stuff in here pretty self
>> contained to the file structure layout irrelevant to what partition
>> it's mounted on? ?I would think is the case.
>>
>>
> That should be OK, but you'll have to edit /etc/fstab, to reflect the
> changes.
>

Thanks James, it is good to know I can do this safely.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Sun Jul 26 22:23:37 2009
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:23:37 -0400
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com>

I figure there are a few techies here who can offer some solid opinions.

I am upgrading my home office entertainment system. There are some nice 
sales going on. I got a super deal on an LG 42" TV and an ONKYO 
receiver. Also got a PS3 for the player and Linux device. OK, guess I am 
on topic a bit.

Now, I have a large collection of vinyl. I have a vintage 1979 Dual 606 
turntable and Realistic 2-channel receiver.

The ONKYO has no phono pre-amp.

I could get a pre-amp and use the ONKYO, but the Realistic is still in 
great condition. I would like to continue using it, but would need 
something like an A/B switch to toggle between the left/right speakers 
on the two receivers.

Has anyone ever done this? Is there a suitable A/B switch.

Thanks

Stephen
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From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 00:26:38 2009
From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:26:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <4A6CD769.8010608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
    <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <13021.99.253.254.243.1248654398.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>

You could do this with what is known as a DPDT switch: Double Pole, Double
Throw. It's essentially two separate switches (one for each channel),
which can select between two sources.

You can get such a thing at just about any electronics supply house: in
the Toronto area: Active Surplus, Creatron, Active-Tech Electronics,
Sayal..

You'd need to put it in a box with binding-post connectors.

On the other hand, you may be able to find a stereo A/B switch, that would
do the same thing off the shelf.

Peter

> I figure there are a few techies here who can offer some solid opinions.
>
> I am upgrading my home office entertainment system. There are some nice
> sales going on. I got a super deal on an LG 42" TV and an ONKYO
> receiver. Also got a PS3 for the player and Linux device. OK, guess I am
> on topic a bit.
>
> Now, I have a large collection of vinyl. I have a vintage 1979 Dual 606
> turntable and Realistic 2-channel receiver.
>
> The ONKYO has no phono pre-amp.
>
> I could get a pre-amp and use the ONKYO, but the Realistic is still in
> great condition. I would like to continue using it, but would need
> something like an A/B switch to toggle between the left/right speakers
> on the two receivers.
>
> Has anyone ever done this? Is there a suitable A/B switch.
>
> Thanks
>
> Stephen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>


-- 
Peter Hiscocks
Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto
http://www.syscompdesign.com
USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator
647-839-0325

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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 01:09:22 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:09:22 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <4A6CD010.4040700-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 5:52 PM, James Knott<james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> A while back I saved my linux partition using a rescue disk along with
>> partimage.
>> I recently did a restore of the system without any issues just to
>> verify the process, because I like to tinker with stuff =)
>>
>> I am wondering though, would it be possible to move the root partition
>> to another partition during the restore? What would be required to
>> tell the kernel to use say /dev/sdb2 instead of /dev/sdb8 to mount
>> root? a simple change to /etc/fstab?
>>
>> Would the partition move break any other programs from running, or
>> linkage i.e. /etc/ld.so.conf? or is stuff in here pretty self
>> contained to the file structure layout irrelevant to what partition
>> it's mounted on? ?I would think is the case.
>>
>>
> That should be OK, but you'll have to edit /etc/fstab, to reflect the
> changes.
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
Be sure to update /boot/grub/menu.lst (or /etc/grub.conf) if you're
using GRUB, and /etc/lilo.conf if you're using LILO.

For GRUB you'll need to update the sections like
root (hd0,0)
and kernel /vmlinuz root=/dev/sda1
and if you have it the line for the menu background (splashimage?)

For the "root" part in grub, drives in GRUB start at 0, so if your
root was on the first partition of the first disk it would be (hd0,0),
and sda2 would be (hd0,1) etc. If you're using a separate boot
partition, notably for XFS users etc, then the "root (hd0,0)" would
actually be whatever /boot is mounted as.

If you get stuck, post know what your actual before/after partition
layout is and I can probably sort it out.GRUB's not that difficult
once you figure out the whole numbered partition thing,but it can be
annoying.


Anothe note: Sometimes, especially with Ubuntu, you may have UUID's in
the grub.conf or menu.lst and /etc/fstab. While the idea is nice, I
prefer to replace these with physical mappings as somebody they get
messed up with kernel updates or drive changes.

And lastly, a useful trick is to label partitions when you're
assigning a filesystem (or after with tune2fs, xfs_admin, etc) then
you can have fstab entries like
LABEL:root    /  ext3        relatime   00
etc

The only thing to watch out for with that is that you don't have
duplicate labels or for example a USB drive with the same label as a
physical disk, etc.
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From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 01:41:12 2009
From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:41:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907262139340.15500@imac2006.local>

On Sat, 25 Jul 2009, meng wrote:
> As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and 
> use ext2ifs to access it from Windows? Or use the ntfs file 
> system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?

How about LTOOLS in Windows?

http://www.hs-esslingen.de/~zimmerma/software/ltools.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTOOLS

-- 
    ____  ____  ____  ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo
   /___  /___/ /___/ /___      http://www.arifsaha.com/
  ____/ /     /   / ____/
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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 01:53:37 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:53:37 -0400
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <4A6CD769.8010608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4A6D08A1.5030808@rogers.com>

Stephen wrote:
> I figure there are a few techies here who can offer some solid opinions.
>
> I am upgrading my home office entertainment system. There are some
> nice sales going on. I got a super deal on an LG 42" TV and an ONKYO
> receiver. Also got a PS3 for the player and Linux device. OK, guess I
> am on topic a bit.
>
> Now, I have a large collection of vinyl. I have a vintage 1979 Dual
> 606 turntable and Realistic 2-channel receiver.
>
> The ONKYO has no phono pre-amp.
>
> I could get a pre-amp and use the ONKYO, but the Realistic is still in
> great condition. I would like to continue using it, but would need
> something like an A/B switch to toggle between the left/right speakers
> on the two receivers.
>
> Has anyone ever done this? Is there a suitable A/B switch.
>
You might try something like this:
http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Product.aspx?language=en-CA&catalog=Online&category=SpeakerSelector&product=4000132

However, why not just use the old receiver as a preamp and connect it's
line out to an input on the new receiver?

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 01:56:14 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:56:14 -0400
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <13021.99.253.254.243.1248654398.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>    <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com> <13021.99.253.254.243.1248654398.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>
Message-ID: <4A6D093E.4070105@rogers.com>

phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote:
> You could do this with what is known as a DPDT switch: Double Pole, Double
> Throw. It's essentially two separate switches (one for each channel),
> which can select between two sources.
>   

Depending on how the receivers are built, a 4PDT may be needed.

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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 02:11:00 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:11:00 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>
	 <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 9:09 PM, Tyler Aviss<tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 5:52 PM, James Knott<james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>> A while back I saved my linux partition using a rescue disk along with
>>> partimage.
>>> I recently did a restore of the system without any issues just to
>>> verify the process, because I like to tinker with stuff =)
>>>
>>> I am wondering though, would it be possible to move the root partition
>>> to another partition during the restore? What would be required to
>>> tell the kernel to use say /dev/sdb2 instead of /dev/sdb8 to mount
>>> root? a simple change to /etc/fstab?
>>>
>>> Would the partition move break any other programs from running, or
>>> linkage i.e. /etc/ld.so.conf? or is stuff in here pretty self
>>> contained to the file structure layout irrelevant to what partition
>>> it's mounted on? ?I would think is the case.
>>>
>>>
>> That should be OK, but you'll have to edit /etc/fstab, to reflect the
>> changes.
>>
>
> Be sure to update /boot/grub/menu.lst (or /etc/grub.conf) if you're
> using GRUB, and /etc/lilo.conf if you're using LILO.
>
> For GRUB you'll need to update the sections like
> root (hd0,0)
> and kernel /vmlinuz root=/dev/sda1
> and if you have it the line for the menu background (splashimage?)
>
> For the "root" part in grub, drives in GRUB start at 0, so if your
> root was on the first partition of the first disk it would be (hd0,0),
> and sda2 would be (hd0,1) etc. If you're using a separate boot
> partition, notably for XFS users etc, then the "root (hd0,0)" would
> actually be whatever /boot is mounted as.

Tyler thanks for the information, I was going to follow up on asking
about the boot loader stuff, but you read my mind and caught that.
Right now I have my kernel on a separate /boot partition. So I can
move root around without worrying about the bootloader stuff.

> If you get stuck, post know what your actual before/after partition
> layout is and I can probably sort it out.GRUB's not that difficult
> once you figure out the whole numbered partition thing,but it can be
> annoying.

I find GRUB quite annoying myself, I currently have WinXP, Kubuntu and
Kubuntu64 installed on separate partition. What I hate about GRUB is
that it's stupid and finds WinXP but not another Linux. So when I
installed a 2nd Linux, it would not update /root/grub/menu.lst as I
expected ... I pretty much hacked my way to adding the missing Linux.

> Anothe note: Sometimes, especially with Ubuntu, you may have UUID's in
> the grub.conf or menu.lst and /etc/fstab. While the idea is nice, I
> prefer to replace these with physical mappings as somebody they get
> messed up with kernel updates or drive changes.

In GRUB, I recall seeing all this UUID stuff and it threw me off, I
still have no idea where it's defined.

> And lastly, a useful trick is to label partitions when you're
> assigning a filesystem (or after with tune2fs, xfs_admin, etc) then
> you can have fstab entries like
> LABEL:root ? ?/ ?ext3 ? ? ? ?relatime ? 00
> etc

I didn't know how to label a drive till now. I saw it used in fstab
but was not sure where the label was getting defined. It never
occurred to me it was a volume label =)

> The only thing to watch out for with that is that you don't have
> duplicate labels or for example a USB drive with the same label as a
> physical disk, etc.
> --

I will keep the labels unique, thanks again!

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 03:17:33 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:17:33 -0400
Subject: Free open softwear book
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907262017x15b78e7diac49b541d09e509b@mail.gmail.com>

Ran across a free for the download book on open softwear (yes,
softwear in this case is spelled correctly). The book deals with
merging electronics into clothes, with specific examples using the
Arduino micro-controller...

Enjoy:

http://softwear.cc/

Colin McGregor
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From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 06:19:03 2009
From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:19:03 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
In-Reply-To: <4A65E8A3.1020507-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <6e71a35eec90a2c4af7eb8848934625b@teksavvy.com>
	<20090721141513.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	<4A65CFF8.10106@alteeve.com>
	<200907211146.01907.amarjan@pobox.com>
	<4A65E55D.4030109@the-wire.com>
	<4A65E8A3.1020507@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <20090727021903.5b8a6c15@teksavvy.com>

Madison Kelly wrote: 

> Mel Wilson wrote:
> > Andrej Marjan wrote:
> > [ ... ]  
> >> However I've heard from a number of people with different DSL ISPs 
> >> that arbitrary encrypted connections get killed, as you've described.
> >>
> >> So is there a third option -- neither Rogers, nor someone that Bell 
> >> can sabotage?  
> > 
> > I know of nothing, short of reinventing FidoNet with our wireless routers.
> > 
> >     Mel.  
> 
> Well, that was the idea of mesh networking.
> 
> The problem though is that for 95% of people, the shaping means nothing. 
> They don't care, and they see no reason to worry about it, if they think 
> of it at all.
> 
> Of the last 5% of us who do care, our numbers are too small to do 
> anything about it at this time. We could get into an arms race of 
> sorts... We come up with ways to bypass their filters, they lock things 
> down more (my theory on the SSH tunnels), but at the end of the day 
> nothing gets fixed.
> 
> The problem is the bandwidth needed to compete with cable/DSL while at 
> the same time being able to afford the infrastructure when the cost is 
> borne by a fairly small group. As of today, I don't see a capable 
> technology.
> 
> My only hope is that these restrictions will continue to press enough 
> that eventuall, Internet delivery will have it's own "Linux/FOSS" moment 
> and someone smarter than me will come up with that new, magical delivery 
> method that finally works around the big telco's.

MLPPP is working fine for me. No throttling here. :-)
 
-- 
J
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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 13:43:51 2009
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:43:51 -0400
Subject: Free open softwear book
In-Reply-To: <f646b91f0907262017x15b78e7diac49b541d09e509b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f646b91f0907262017x15b78e7diac49b541d09e509b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99a6c38f0907270643r307018bje03e46c7c3b9f498@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Colin McGregor<colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Ran across a free for the download book on open softwear (yes,
> softwear in this case is spelled correctly). The book deals with
> merging electronics into clothes, with specific examples using the
> Arduino micro-controller...
>
> Enjoy:
>
> http://softwear.cc/

About a year ago I ran into someone at the Oakville GO station who was
wearing an MP3 player (his shirt) which was rather neat.  I've got a
couple Parallax SX28's laying around; might have to prototype
something.

Just wish I had some decent electronic paper.  ;-)

-- 
  Scott Elcomb
  http://www.psema4.com/   @psema4
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From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 15:29:06 2009
From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:29:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>  <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>  <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local>

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> What I hate about GRUB is that it's stupid and finds WinXP but 
> not another Linux. So when I installed a 2nd Linux, it would 
> not update /root/grub/menu.lst as I expected ... I pretty much 
> hacked my way to adding the missing Linux.

I believe it is not the problem with GRUB, but with the 2nd 
Linux installer. I don't think updating GRUB configuration is 
responsibility of GRUB (or any boot manager), but responsibility 
of the installer (either software or human). So blame the 
installer of that linux distro, not GRUB.

I believe it is a good practise to always make backup of 
everything under /boot before installing other OS. Therefore if 
your GRUB configuration is overwritten, you can easily copy & 
paste from your backup.

-- 
    ____  ____  ____  ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo
   /___  /___/ /___/ /___      http://www.arifsaha.com/
  ____/ /     /   / ____/
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 16:28:27 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:28:27 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090727162826.GM2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 05:42:41PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> A while back I saved my linux partition using a rescue disk along with
> partimage.
> I recently did a restore of the system without any issues just to
> verify the process, because I like to tinker with stuff =)
> 
> I am wondering though, would it be possible to move the root partition
> to another partition during the restore? What would be required to
> tell the kernel to use say /dev/sdb2 instead of /dev/sdb8 to mount
> root? a simple change to /etc/fstab?
> 
> Would the partition move break any other programs from running, or
> linkage i.e. /etc/ld.so.conf? or is stuff in here pretty self
> contained to the file structure layout irrelevant to what partition
> it's mounted on?  I would think is the case.

If you fix /etc/fstab, and update your bootloader as needed, then it
should be fine.  Of course if you use UUIDs or LABELs, then you don't
even have to update the fstab.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 16:35:56 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:35:56 -0400
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <4A6CD769.8010608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20090727163556.GN2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 06:23:37PM -0400, Stephen wrote:
> I figure there are a few techies here who can offer some solid opinions.
>
> I am upgrading my home office entertainment system. There are some nice  
> sales going on. I got a super deal on an LG 42" TV and an ONKYO  
> receiver. Also got a PS3 for the player and Linux device. OK, guess I am  
> on topic a bit.
>
> Now, I have a large collection of vinyl. I have a vintage 1979 Dual 606  
> turntable and Realistic 2-channel receiver.
>
> The ONKYO has no phono pre-amp.
>
> I could get a pre-amp and use the ONKYO, but the Realistic is still in  
> great condition. I would like to continue using it, but would need  
> something like an A/B switch to toggle between the left/right speakers  
> on the two receivers.
>
> Has anyone ever done this? Is there a suitable A/B switch.

I think getting a phono preamp would probably be cheaper, and less
hassle and be much simpler to use.  Also takes a lot less space than
having two receivers around.

Who knows, but maybe you could use the other receiver somewhere else in
the house.

I personally don't think I would want a switch causing interence with
my speakers.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 17:02:54 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:02:54 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <20090727170254.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 09:30:05AM -0400, meng wrote:
> I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
> 
> I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
> As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
> Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
> 
> I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
> Any help will be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks and cheers :-)

The obvious answer would be: Use FAT32.

Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 17:06:04 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:06:04 -0400
Subject: scp problem
In-Reply-To: <200907260800.46770.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org>
References: <200907250841.33609.icanprogram@295.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907251522200.6744@redclaw.mimosa.com> <200907260800.46770.icanprogram@295.ca>
Message-ID: <20090727170603.GP2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 08:00:45AM -0400, bob 295 wrote:
> He's the exact sequence that I tried with this accompanying debug file.
> 
> i) I brought up both Mepis boxes.
> 
> box1 - 192.168.1.101 (as determined by running ifconfig)
> box2 - 192.168.1.103
> 
> The .bashrc on box1 contains a line at the end which says:
> 
> echo "hi bob from box 1"

Don't do that.  It must ONLY generate output for interactive sessions,
otherwise things like rsync, scp, etc all break.  They don't know what
your 'hi bob...' message means, so they fail.

So the .profile would be a place for such stuff, but .bashrc is not.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 18:34:41 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:34:41 -0700
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <20090727162826.GM2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <20090727162826.GM2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <489089AE-4162-4536-8011-A29B69950A9B@gmail.com>

Anyone else have the UUIDs bugger up after a kernel update? What are  
they generated from?

(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 27-Jul-09, at 9:28 AM, lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart  
Sorensen) wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 05:42:41PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> A while back I saved my linux partition using a rescue disk along  
>> with
>> partimage.
>> I recently did a restore of the system without any issues just to
>> verify the process, because I like to tinker with stuff =)
>>
>> I am wondering though, would it be possible to move the root  
>> partition
>> to another partition during the restore? What would be required to
>> tell the kernel to use say /dev/sdb2 instead of /dev/sdb8 to mount
>> root? a simple change to /etc/fstab?
>>
>> Would the partition move break any other programs from running, or
>> linkage i.e. /etc/ld.so.conf? or is stuff in here pretty self
>> contained to the file structure layout irrelevant to what partition
>> it's mounted on?  I would think is the case.
>
> If you fix /etc/fstab, and update your bootloader as needed, then it
> should be fine.  Of course if you use UUIDs or LABELs, then you don't
> even have to update the fstab.
>
> -- 
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 18:53:29 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:53:29 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <489089AE-4162-4536-8011-A29B69950A9B-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <20090727162826.GM2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <489089AE-4162-4536-8011-A29B69950A9B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090727185329.GQ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 11:34:41AM -0700, Aviss,Tyler wrote:
> Anyone else have the UUIDs bugger up after a kernel update? What are  
> they generated from?

Well I think once I had a bad udev version which meant the initramfs
didn't work properly, but that wasn't the fault of the UUIDs.

They are part of the filesystem, and no I have never had a problem
with them.  Try running blkid on your devices.

For example:
# blkid /dev/sd*
/dev/sda1: LABEL="Root" UUID="e2dc13ca-f6b1-4f85-859c-e5ce6f4a5c86" SEC_TYPE="ext2" TYPE="ext3"
/dev/sda2: UUID="2iOPQ4-ZRI7-KP4T-OJxg-n2qq-09t8-1Ra8az" TYPE="lvm2pv"
/dev/sdb1: LABEL="ENGBACKUP" UUID="17e68b25-7b04-4025-b5d6-1448c4718a2f" SEC_TYPE="ext2" TYPE="ext3"

# blkid /dev/mapper/*
/dev/mapper/MainVG-Data: LABEL="Data" UUID="f0bce73f-e9ac-41ad-90ed-2525b749be57" SEC_TYPE="ext2" TYPE="ext3"
/dev/mapper/MainVG-Home: LABEL="Home" UUID="020ac4d9-a1fb-4a96-97ad-151c1b761265" SEC_TYPE="ext2" TYPE="ext3"
/dev/mapper/MainVG-Swap: TYPE="swap" LABEL="Swap" UUID="db972dfc-ca38-4a8f-933b-c314ae987748"

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 19:43:19 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:43:19 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500-aZibgg63UJu44ywRPIzf9A@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>
	 <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 11:29 AM, S P Arif Sahari
Wibowo<arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2009, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>
>> What I hate about GRUB is that it's stupid and finds WinXP but not another
>> Linux. So when I installed a 2nd Linux, it would not update
>> /root/grub/menu.lst as I expected ... I pretty much hacked my way to adding
>> the missing Linux.
>
> I believe it is not the problem with GRUB, but with the 2nd Linux installer.
> I don't think updating GRUB configuration is responsibility of GRUB (or any
> boot manager), but responsibility of the installer (either software or
> human). So blame the installer of that linux distro, not GRUB.

So if I were to go through the process of re-installing GRUB, never
done this. You're telling me it would not find any of the
pre-installed OSes? I would have to add them in manually from memory?
>From my perspective, GRUB along with any other bootloader should be
robust enough to handle OS detection.

> I believe it is a good practise to always make backup of everything under
> /boot before installing other OS. Therefore if your GRUB configuration is
> overwritten, you can easily copy & paste from your backup.

I have /boot on a separate partition so installing another OS should
not overwrite GRUB config files as the files for it are located under
/boot/grub and this partition should be hands-off during the install
of a new OS. In fact it should not be able to overwrite GRUB
configuration file unless one re-installs over an existing OS that has
/boot on the same partition.

> --
> ? ____ ?____ ?____ ?____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo
> ?/___ ?/___/ /___/ /___ ? ? ?http://www.arifsaha.com/
> ?____/ / ? ? / ? / ____/
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 21:08:31 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:08:31 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com> <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local> <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 03:43:19PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> So if I were to go through the process of re-installing GRUB, never
> done this. You're telling me it would not find any of the
> pre-installed OSes? I would have to add them in manually from memory?
> From my perspective, GRUB along with any other bootloader should be
> robust enough to handle OS detection.

No that has never been the job of ANY bootloader.  Bootloaders don't
make decisions, they just do as they are told.

> I have /boot on a separate partition so installing another OS should
> not overwrite GRUB config files as the files for it are located under
> /boot/grub and this partition should be hands-off during the install
> of a new OS. In fact it should not be able to overwrite GRUB
> configuration file unless one re-installs over an existing OS that has
> /boot on the same partition.

Only one OS can own /boot.  No linux distribution can be expected to
know the syntax of every other linux distributions boot loader.  If you
want to share /boot between two linux systems, then you (as the admin)
become entirely responsible for the boot loader config.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Mon Jul 27 21:12:15 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:12:15 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <20090727170254.GO2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com>
	 <20090727170254.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907271412t6692585dnd0bf1b56876b82ac@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/27 Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 09:30:05AM -0400, meng wrote:
>> I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
>>
>> I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
>> As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
>> Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
>>
>> I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
>> Any help will be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks and cheers :-)
>
> The obvious answer would be: Use FAT32.
>
> Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.

It isn't?  Tell that to a DVD image file.  I don't keep more than one
or two lying around at any given time, but one was enough to convince
me I didn't need to use FAT32 anymore.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 00:15:41 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:15:41 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <9028f9286eec634244adb2da1ef962ee@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: S P Arif Sahari Wibowo arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:41:12 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs

> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009, meng wrote:
> > As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and 
> > use ext2ifs to access it from Windows? Or use the ntfs file 
> > system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
> 
> How about LTOOLS in Windows?
> 
> http://www.hs-esslingen.de/~zimmerma/software/ltools.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTOOLS

Thanks, haven't heard of that :-)
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 00:17:30 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:17:30 -0400
Subject: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC
Message-ID: <592b5ea36f4ecc2644dac6bff0fb0f7c@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: JoeHill joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:19:03 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: OT: Bell reveals internet throttling details to CRTC

> Madison Kelly wrote: 
> 
> > Mel Wilson wrote:
> > > Andrej Marjan wrote:
> > > [ ... ]  
> > >> However I've heard from a number of people with different DSL ISPs 
> > >> that arbitrary encrypted connections get killed, as you've described.
> > >>
> > >> So is there a third option -- neither Rogers, nor someone that Bell 
> > >> can sabotage?  
> > > 
> > > I know of nothing, short of reinventing FidoNet with our wireless routers.
> > > 
> > >     Mel.  
> > 
> > Well, that was the idea of mesh networking.
> > 
> > The problem though is that for 95% of people, the shaping means nothing. 
> > They don't care, and they see no reason to worry about it, if they think 
> > of it at all.
> > 
> > Of the last 5% of us who do care, our numbers are too small to do 
> > anything about it at this time. We could get into an arms race of 
> > sorts... We come up with ways to bypass their filters, they lock things 
> > down more (my theory on the SSH tunnels), but at the end of the day 
> > nothing gets fixed.
> > 
> > The problem is the bandwidth needed to compete with cable/DSL while at 
> > the same time being able to afford the infrastructure when the cost is 
> > borne by a fairly small group. As of today, I don't see a capable 
> > technology.
> > 
> > My only hope is that these restrictions will continue to press enough 
> > that eventuall, Internet delivery will have it's own "Linux/FOSS" moment 
> > and someone smarter than me will come up with that new, magical delivery 
> > method that finally works around the big telco's.
> 
> MLPPP is working fine for me. No throttling here. :-)
>  

Same here, thanks again Joe for your original post :-)

Meng

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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 00:33:27 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:33:27 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <df0c098ad1242e7bd8b7def865bdea73@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:02:54 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs

> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 09:30:05AM -0400, meng wrote:
> > I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
> > 
> > I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
> > As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
> > Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
> > 
> > I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
> > Any help will be appreciated.
> > 
> > Thanks and cheers :-)
> 
> The obvious answer would be: Use FAT32.
> 
> Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.
> 

Thanks for the suggestion, Len but as Giles pointed out, DVD image files mostly are bigger than 4 GB :-(

Often, I rent a DVD and throw it on my HDD and watch it later.
That way, I don't have to go to the store on the weekend and perhaps find that it's already out.

OT: I just ordered a DVD from amazon.co.uk (only available there).
I think it'll only play on a region-free player than can handle PAL, it's Region 2.
Or I'll have to watch it on my monitor with a region-free DVD-ROM :-)

Meng


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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 01:04:04 2009
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:04:04 -0400
Subject: [Bulk][OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <4A6CD769.8010608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4A6E4E84.8000305@rogers.com>

Stephen wrote:
> I figure there are a few techies here who can offer some solid opinions.
>
> I am upgrading my home office entertainment system. There are some 
> nice sales going on. I got a super deal on an LG 42" TV and an ONKYO 
> receiver. Also got a PS3 for the player and Linux device. OK, guess I 
> am on topic a bit.
>
> Now, I have a large collection of vinyl. I have a vintage 1979 Dual 
> 606 turntable and Realistic 2-channel receiver.
>
> The ONKYO has no phono pre-amp.
>
> I could get a pre-amp and use the ONKYO, but the Realistic is still in 
> great condition. I would like to continue using it, but would need 
> something like an A/B switch to toggle between the left/right speakers 
> on the two receivers.
>
> Has anyone ever done this? Is there a suitable A/B switch.
>
Thanks to all who replied.

I am leaning toward the A/B switch, but may go the phono preamp route 
somewhere down the road.

Stephen
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 01:43:41 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:43:41 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <a0da861cf2129345eb944f2aed30510d@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: Giles Orr gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:12:15 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs

> 2009/7/27 Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:
> > On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 09:30:05AM -0400, meng wrote:
> >> I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
> >>
> >> I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
> >> As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
> >> Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
> >>
> >> I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
> >> Any help will be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Thanks and cheers :-)
> >
> > The obvious answer would be: Use FAT32.
> >
> > Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.
> 
> It isn't?  Tell that to a DVD image file.  I don't keep more than one
> or two lying around at any given time, but one was enough to convince
> me I didn't need to use FAT32 anymore.
> 
Yes, that prodded me change to NTFS :-)



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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 02:53:20 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:53:20 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <20090727210830.GR2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>
	 <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 03:43:19PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> So if I were to go through the process of re-installing GRUB, never
>> done this. You're telling me it would not find any of the
>> pre-installed OSes? I would have to add them in manually from memory?
>> From my perspective, GRUB along with any other bootloader should be
>> robust enough to handle OS detection.
>
> No that has never been the job of ANY bootloader. ?Bootloaders don't
> make decisions, they just do as they are told.

This is good to know now so I don't find myself in a predicament if I
ever pooch the bootloader. I will have to file a bug with the Kubuntu
camp to update their installer then!

>> I have /boot on a separate partition so installing another OS should
>> not overwrite GRUB config files as the files for it are located under
>> /boot/grub and this partition should be hands-off during the install
>> of a new OS. In fact it should not be able to overwrite GRUB
>> configuration file unless one re-installs over an existing OS that has
>> /boot on the same partition.
>
> Only one OS can own /boot. ?No linux distribution can be expected to
> know the syntax of every other linux distributions boot loader. ?If you
> want to share /boot between two linux systems, then you (as the admin)
> become entirely responsible for the boot loader config.

I get this, this is what I am currently doing, each linux gets it own
/boot partition.

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 05:27:56 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 01:27:56 -0400
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <4A6CD769.8010608-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907272227x11176f32g18a80e79b75fc1cc@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Stephen<stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I figure there are a few techies here who can offer some solid opinions.
>
> I am upgrading my home office entertainment system. There are some nice
> sales going on. I got a super deal on an LG 42" TV and an ONKYO receiver.
> Also got a PS3 for the player and Linux device. OK, guess I am on topic a
> bit.
>
> Now, I have a large collection of vinyl. I have a vintage 1979 Dual 606
> turntable and Realistic 2-channel receiver.
>
> The ONKYO has no phono pre-amp.
>
> I could get a pre-amp and use the ONKYO, but the Realistic is still in great
> condition. I would like to continue using it, but would need something like
> an A/B switch to toggle between the left/right speakers on the two
> receivers.
>
> Has anyone ever done this? Is there a suitable A/B switch.
>
> Thanks
>
> Stephen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
Just a question about the PS3. What's the Linux like, and what can you
actually do with it? Are there proper video drivers etc?
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From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 10:04:07 2009
From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:04:07 -0400
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907272227x11176f32g18a80e79b75fc1cc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com> <3a97ef0907272227x11176f32g18a80e79b75fc1cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6ECD17.7040503@rogers.com>

Tyler Aviss wrote:
> Just a question about the PS3. What's the Linux like, and what can you
> actually do with it? Are there proper video drivers etc?
>   
You get a full blown Linux. Video is 1080p

The only real limit is due to the memory of the PS3, only 512mb

I connect mine to my Linux server where my music library is, and play 
through my sound system

System
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 13:50:02 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:50:02 -0400
Subject: OT: ASCII Tux
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907280650u1af4cd58m1f511f7d00ef7f9b@mail.gmail.com>

I found this cool!:

http://www.100mb.nl/

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 14:07:27 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:07:27 -0400
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <4A6ECD17.7040503-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com> <3a97ef0907272227x11176f32g18a80e79b75fc1cc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6ECD17.7040503@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20090728140726.GS2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 06:04:07AM -0400, Stephen wrote:
> Tyler Aviss wrote:
>> Just a question about the PS3. What's the Linux like, and what can you
>> actually do with it? Are there proper video drivers etc?
>>   
> You get a full blown Linux. Video is 1080p

2D video.  No 3D access at all.  Decent performance 2D, but 2D only.

> The only real limit is due to the memory of the PS3, only 512mb

And since that is 256MB for the CPU and 256MB for graphics, you really
only have 256MB, and because linux runs in a virtual machine essentially
on the PS3, you actually get 212MB in linux.

> I connect mine to my Linux server where my music library is, and play  
> through my sound system

Of course being about 3.2GHz but an in order powerpc design, it performs
similarly to a 1.6GHz G4.  Now if you write code to take advantage of
the SPEs, then performance becomes very impresive.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 14:14:04 2009
From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddy mills)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:14:04 -0400
Subject: openvpn and portforwarding 1194
Message-ID: <4A6F07AC.9000605@tmis.ca>


I installed OpenVPN (bridged mode) on my LAN computer.

Can I portforward 1194/udp from my router to the OpenVPN server?
Will that work?

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From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 14:28:21 2009
From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:28:21 -0400
Subject: openvpn and portforwarding 1194
In-Reply-To: <4A6F07AC.9000605-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A6F07AC.9000605@tmis.ca>
Message-ID: <4A6F0B05.2080807@rogers.com>

teddy mills wrote:
>
> I installed OpenVPN (bridged mode) on my LAN computer.
>
> Can I portforward 1194/udp from my router to the OpenVPN server?
> Will that work?

It should.  Get OpenVPN working first, then try forwarding.

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 14:40:41 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:40:41 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907271412t6692585dnd0bf1b56876b82ac-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com> <20090727170254.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280907271412t6692585dnd0bf1b56876b82ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728144041.GT2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 05:12:15PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> 2009/7/27 Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:
> > On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 09:30:05AM -0400, meng wrote:
> >> I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
> >>
> >> I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
> >> As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
> >> Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
> >>
> >> I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
> >> Any help will be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Thanks and cheers :-)
> >
> > The obvious answer would be: Use FAT32.
> >
> > Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.
> 
> It isn't?  Tell that to a DVD image file.  I don't keep more than one
> or two lying around at any given time, but one was enough to convince
> me I didn't need to use FAT32 anymore.

Well certainly video DVDs contain multiple 1GB files, not 4GB+ files.
Raw iso dumps of a DVD would be bigger.  I suppose you could learn to
use split and cat.

I would't let windows write to ext2/3, and I don't trust ntfs writing
from linux, so for exchanging data I will stick to fat32.  For the few
files over 4GB I can split them.  They don't happen often enough to be
a problem.

Anyhow, some people claim ntfs-3g works well.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 14:42:55 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:42:55 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <df0c098ad1242e7bd8b7def865bdea73-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <df0c098ad1242e7bd8b7def865bdea73@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <20090728144255.GU2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 08:33:27PM -0400, meng wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestion, Len but as Giles pointed out, DVD image files mostly are bigger than 4 GB :-(
> 
> Often, I rent a DVD and throw it on my HDD and watch it later.
> That way, I don't have to go to the store on the weekend and perhaps find that it's already out.

If you dump the DVD then the files are 1GB each, so that isn't a problem.
Only a problem if you dump it as a raw ISO rather than as the files on
the DVD (as dvdbackup would do).  DVD videos avoided using large files
on purpose.

> OT: I just ordered a DVD from amazon.co.uk (only available there).
> I think it'll only play on a region-free player than can handle PAL, it's Region 2.
> Or I'll have to watch it on my monitor with a region-free DVD-ROM :-)

I thought lots of players these days were multi region and multi format.

I am sure $40 would get you one at pacific mall if you don't have one,
or play it on linux (I use my mythtv box for all such things).

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 14:53:49 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:53:49 -0400
Subject: openvpn and portforwarding 1194
In-Reply-To: <4A6F07AC.9000605-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A6F07AC.9000605@tmis.ca>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907280753g40f7c861gd0c7cb12414df653@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/28 teddy mills <teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org>

>
> I installed OpenVPN (bridged mode) on my LAN computer.
>
> Can I portforward 1194/udp from my router to the OpenVPN server?
> Will that work?
>

You can do portforwarding from your router. And it will work for sure, have
done that successfully.  After setting port forwarding, use nmap to see if
you can reach the openvpn server from outside the router/firewall.

Regards,

William
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 15:14:35 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:14:35 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <20090728144255.GU2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <df0c098ad1242e7bd8b7def865bdea73@teksavvy.com> 
	<20090728144255.GU2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907280814r77ae606cs4476f5ba0d6090ee@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:42, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I am sure $40 would get you one at pacific mall if you don't have one,
> or play it on linux (I use my mythtv box for all such things).

Yeah, I know, OT, but what is Pacific Mall like, I've never been
there, even when I used to hear a lot about it from a teacher who came
into Factory Direct when I worked there back in '02; kept telling me I
should go.  Any reason to check it out?



-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 15:24:12 2009
From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:24:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>  <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>  <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com>  <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com>  <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local>
  <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com>  <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local>

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> each linux gets it own /boot partition.

Well, this can be tricky as well, since only one partition can 
be pointed from master boot record. :-) Probably the other 
partition can be booted through chain-loading, but it feels like 
one linux installation is the master and other is secondary.

I myself think shared /boot do make sense, but just as I said 
before, currently it requires some manual work: backup /boot 
before installing new linux, then synchronize the new /boot with 
the old one. Alternatively you can get the new installation to 
have its own temporary /boot without writing MBR, then 
synchronize new temporary /boot with the real /boot.

-- 
    ____  ____  ____  ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo
   /___  /___/ /___/ /___      http://www.arifsaha.com/
  ____/ /     /   / ____/
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 16:02:32 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:02:32 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907280814r77ae606cs4476f5ba0d6090ee-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <df0c098ad1242e7bd8b7def865bdea73@teksavvy.com> <20090728144255.GU2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <7c50d3570907280814r77ae606cs4476f5ba0d6090ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728160231.GV2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:14:35AM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:42, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > I am sure $40 would get you one at pacific mall if you don't have one,
> > or play it on linux (I use my mythtv box for all such things).
> 
> Yeah, I know, OT, but what is Pacific Mall like, I've never been
> there, even when I used to hear a lot about it from a teacher who came
> into Factory Direct when I worked there back in '02; kept telling me I
> should go.  Any reason to check it out?

Hmm, well its somewhat like many of the large fleamarkets in the GTA,
except the stores are actually each contained in a glass box, and they
sell all new stuff rather than sometimes used things.

It is modeled on the markets of hong kong as far as I know.

It is absolutely crazy busy on weekends.

There are lots of stores carying asian DVDs and VCDs (and in some cases
western ones too), karaoke equipment, cell phones (often unlocked GSM
phone models you can't even get here since rogers doesn't carry them),
DVD players (region free of course), computer stuff (canada computers
has a store there among others, although of course their prices are the
same as their other stores.  There isn't really much hope for getting
cheaper computer parts in general, since there isn't much margin left.),
stores with parts for fancying up cars (like honda civics as far as I
can tell), etc.  The food court is all chinese stuff and very good (unlike
any chinese food you would find at the food court of a normal mall).

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 16:04:24 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:04:24 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500-aZibgg63UJu44ywRPIzf9A@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com> <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local> <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com> <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local>
Message-ID: <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:24:12AM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote:
> Well, this can be tricky as well, since only one partition can be pointed 
> from master boot record. :-) Probably the other partition can be booted 
> through chain-loading, but it feels like one linux installation is the 
> master and other is secondary.
>
> I myself think shared /boot do make sense, but just as I said before, 
> currently it requires some manual work: backup /boot before installing 
> new linux, then synchronize the new /boot with the old one. Alternatively 
> you can get the new installation to have its own temporary /boot without 
> writing MBR, then synchronize new temporary /boot with the real /boot.

If you want something that works, then you pick one linux xystem to
be the main one.  You then let it configure grub for its use.  You can
then install your other linux and tell it to install its bootloader on
its own partition and ask the first grub to chainload the second grub.
Grub does not have to be in the MBR after all.  It just often is.

So you just chainload a second grub instance the same as you chainload
the windows boot loader.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 16:17:41 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:17:41 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <20090728160424.GW2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>
	 <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907280917n328f570i511c4263aff7bc6e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:24:12AM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote:
>> Well, this can be tricky as well, since only one partition can be pointed
>> from master boot record. :-) Probably the other partition can be booted
>> through chain-loading, but it feels like one linux installation is the
>> master and other is secondary.
>>
>> I myself think shared /boot do make sense, but just as I said before,
>> currently it requires some manual work: backup /boot before installing
>> new linux, then synchronize the new /boot with the old one. Alternatively
>> you can get the new installation to have its own temporary /boot without
>> writing MBR, then synchronize new temporary /boot with the real /boot.
>
> If you want something that works, then you pick one linux xystem to
> be the main one. ?You then let it configure grub for its use. ?You can
> then install your other linux and tell it to install its bootloader on
> its own partition and ask the first grub to chainload the second grub.
> Grub does not have to be in the MBR after all. ?It just often is.
>
> So you just chainload a second grub instance the same as you chainload
> the windows boot loader.

OK that makes more sense now. I believe this is what I did, installed
GRUB on it's own partition, 1st boot-sector or something like that
rather than the MBR.

I recall I had to edit the /boot/grub/menu.lst file to add back the
missing entry which I copied over from the other /boot/grub/menu.lst.

Is that was you mean by chaining? It seems like I can boot into every
OS without any issue, and I belive the right vmlinuz kernel image is
running as I don't see how a 32 bit kernel could be running 64 linked
apps and vice-versa.

As a sanity check with my limited knowledge I would check by using:
'uname -a' and verify the kernel info.

> --
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 16:20:19 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:20:19 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:02, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hmm, well its somewhat like many of the large fleamarkets in the GTA,
> except the stores are actually each contained in a glass box, and they
> sell all new stuff rather than sometimes used things.
>
> It is modeled on the markets of hong kong as far as I know.
>
> It is absolutely crazy busy on weekends.
>
> There are lots of stores carying asian DVDs and VCDs (and in some cases
> western ones too), karaoke equipment, cell phones (often unlocked GSM
> phone models you can't even get here since rogers doesn't carry them),
> DVD players (region free of course), computer stuff (canada computers
> has a store there among others, although of course their prices are the
> same as their other stores. ?There isn't really much hope for getting
> cheaper computer parts in general, since there isn't much margin left.),
> stores with parts for fancying up cars (like honda civics as far as I
> can tell), etc. ?The food court is all chinese stuff and very good (unlike
> any chinese food you would find at the food court of a normal mall).
>
> --
> Len Sorensen

Maybe I'll go this weekend, to check it out, sounds like fun, although
I really should have went 7yrs ago.  What else is in that area that I
should check out, actually where is PM?

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 16:37:45 2009
From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:37:45 -0400
Subject: spam from cg.ca
Message-ID: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy>

Greetings,

I have just received spam purportedly from CIRA in the domain
cg.ca.  It looks like <http://whois.domaintools.com/cg.ca> the
server is in California and the domain status is "Registered And
Parked Or Redirected".

Having heard here and in a recent TLUG meeting that cira.ca tries
hard to protect the .ca TLD, I wonder whether the similarity of
the originating domain to the well-known gc.ca can imperil the
domain registration.  I do not know who owns the domain, and I do
not know how to test whether an owner would be for example,
as "CIRA POLICIES, RULES, AND PROCEDURES" puts it,

    2(d) Corporation. A corporation under the laws of Canada or
         any province or territory of Canada;

Is there anything worthwhile I can do to stomp on this particular
source of spam?

BTW, the email has no content.  The .html attachment purports to
be from Canada Revenue Agency, but embedded link in text "To
access the form for your tax refund, please click here" goes to a
site with a domain name including "igotmyloverback".  Ah, a
second reason for my "oh-yeah?" tic to be acting up.  (My friends
here will kindly refrain from asking how long I spent looking
at "cg.ca" before twigging to the character reversal.  Thank
you.)

All suggestions welcome.

Cheers,
Terry.


--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 16:46:07 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:46:07 -0400
Subject: spam from cg.ca
In-Reply-To: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy>
References: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy>
Message-ID: <4A6F2B4F.2030904@telly.org>

Terrence Enger wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I have just received spam purportedly from CIRA in the domain
> cg.ca.  It looks like <http://whois.domaintools.com/cg.ca> the
> server is in California and the domain status is "Registered And
> Parked Or Redirected".
>   
Thanks for pointing this out.

I will make sure this gets into the right hands at CIRA.


> Having heard here and in a recent TLUG meeting that cira.ca tries
> hard to protect the .ca TLD, I wonder whether the similarity of
> the originating domain to the well-known gc.ca can imperil the
> domain registration.
In this case, probably not. You can't claim a trademarkable domain name
on two letters.

But if they were trying to cyber-squat, I think there are some people in
the federal government who will handle this better than you or I could...

>   I do not know who owns the domain,

but CIRA does. It allows you to retain privacy from casual WHOIS
searches but they still keep acurate data internally.

I'll see what I can find out.

- Evan

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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 16:54:56 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:54:56 -0400
Subject: spam from cg.ca
In-Reply-To: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy>
References: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907280954s2b3e20bfyb930ce5d06d38651@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:37, Terrence Enger<tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I have just received spam purportedly from CIRA in the domain
> cg.ca. ?It looks like <http://whois.domaintools.com/cg.ca> the
> server is in California and the domain status is "Registered And
> Parked Or Redirected".
>
> Having heard here and in a recent TLUG meeting that cira.ca tries
> hard to protect the .ca TLD, I wonder whether the similarity of
> the originating domain to the well-known gc.ca can imperil the
> domain registration. ?I do not know who owns the domain, and I do
> not know how to test whether an owner would be for example,
> as "CIRA POLICIES, RULES, AND PROCEDURES" puts it,
>
> ? ?2(d) Corporation. A corporation under the laws of Canada or
> ? ? ? ? any province or territory of Canada;
>
> Is there anything worthwhile I can do to stomp on this particular
> source of spam?
>
> BTW, the email has no content. ?The .html attachment purports to
> be from Canada Revenue Agency, but embedded link in text "To
> access the form for your tax refund, please click here" goes to a
> site with a domain name including "igotmyloverback". ?Ah, a
> second reason for my "oh-yeah?" tic to be acting up. ?(My friends
> here will kindly refrain from asking how long I spent looking
> at "cg.ca" before twigging to the character reversal. ?Thank
> you.)
>
> All suggestions welcome.
>
> Cheers,
> Terry.
>

Well, the cg.ca was registered by a company in Montreal
(http://can.ca), which you could have found out by using CIRA's own
whois lookup.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 16:59:32 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:59:32 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:20:19PM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:02, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Hmm, well its somewhat like many of the large fleamarkets in the GTA,
> > except the stores are actually each contained in a glass box, and they
> > sell all new stuff rather than sometimes used things.
> >
> > It is modeled on the markets of hong kong as far as I know.
> >
> > It is absolutely crazy busy on weekends.
> >
> > There are lots of stores carying asian DVDs and VCDs (and in some cases
> > western ones too), karaoke equipment, cell phones (often unlocked GSM
> > phone models you can't even get here since rogers doesn't carry them),
> > DVD players (region free of course), computer stuff (canada computers
> > has a store there among others, although of course their prices are the
> > same as their other stores. ?There isn't really much hope for getting
> > cheaper computer parts in general, since there isn't much margin left.),
> > stores with parts for fancying up cars (like honda civics as far as I
> > can tell), etc. ?The food court is all chinese stuff and very good (unlike
> > any chinese food you would find at the food court of a normal mall).
> >
> > --
> > Len Sorensen
> 
> Maybe I'll go this weekend, to check it out, sounds like fun, although
> I really should have went 7yrs ago.  What else is in that area that I
> should check out, actually where is PM?

Steeles and kennedy I believe is the intersection.

I suppose T&T is a nice asian supermarket near it (just west of it
on steeles) but you can find those downtown now as well, so not as
interesting.  Some people might like the mongolian grill (which is a
chain of course.  We used to go to it when at university in waterloo a
decade ago).

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:00:39 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:00:39 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907280917n328f570i511c4263aff7bc6e-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com> <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local> <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com> <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907280917n328f570i511c4263aff7bc6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728170038.GY2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:17:41PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:24:12AM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote:
> >> Well, this can be tricky as well, since only one partition can be pointed
> >> from master boot record. :-) Probably the other partition can be booted
> >> through chain-loading, but it feels like one linux installation is the
> >> master and other is secondary.
> >>
> >> I myself think shared /boot do make sense, but just as I said before,
> >> currently it requires some manual work: backup /boot before installing
> >> new linux, then synchronize the new /boot with the old one. Alternatively
> >> you can get the new installation to have its own temporary /boot without
> >> writing MBR, then synchronize new temporary /boot with the real /boot.
> >
> > If you want something that works, then you pick one linux xystem to
> > be the main one. ?You then let it configure grub for its use. ?You can
> > then install your other linux and tell it to install its bootloader on
> > its own partition and ask the first grub to chainload the second grub.
> > Grub does not have to be in the MBR after all. ?It just often is.
> >
> > So you just chainload a second grub instance the same as you chainload
> > the windows boot loader.
> 
> OK that makes more sense now. I believe this is what I did, installed
> GRUB on it's own partition, 1st boot-sector or something like that
> rather than the MBR.
> 
> I recall I had to edit the /boot/grub/menu.lst file to add back the
> missing entry which I copied over from the other /boot/grub/menu.lst.
> 
> Is that was you mean by chaining? It seems like I can boot into every
> OS without any issue, and I belive the right vmlinuz kernel image is
> running as I don't see how a 32 bit kernel could be running 64 linked
> apps and vice-versa.
> 
> As a sanity check with my limited knowledge I would check by using:
> 'uname -a' and verify the kernel info.

A 64bit kernel usually can run 32bit applications unless you specificly
disabled that.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:04:12 2009
From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:04:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <20090728160424.GW2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com> <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local>
 <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com> <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local>
 <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local>

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> If you want something that works, then you pick one linux 
> xystem to be the main one.  You then let it configure grub for 
> its use.

Sharing /boot works too. Just may need more understanding on 
grub and booting mechanism. That said, I do agree that 
chain-loading may be easier.

-- 
    ____  ____  ____  ____ (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo
   /___  /___/ /___/ /___      http://www.arifsaha.com/
  ____/ /     /   / ____/
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:07:21 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:07:21 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907281007r16cade9bj49b92f5a6ac58f05@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/28/09, Michael Lauzon <mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:02, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Hmm, well its somewhat like many of the large fleamarkets in the GTA,
>> except the stores are actually each contained in a glass box, and they
>> sell all new stuff rather than sometimes used things.
>>
>> It is modeled on the markets of hong kong as far as I know.
>>
>> It is absolutely crazy busy on weekends.
>>
>> There are lots of stores carying asian DVDs and VCDs (and in some cases
>> western ones too), karaoke equipment, cell phones (often unlocked GSM
>> phone models you can't even get here since rogers doesn't carry them),
>> DVD players (region free of course), computer stuff (canada computers
>> has a store there among others, although of course their prices are the
>> same as their other stores.  There isn't really much hope for getting
>> cheaper computer parts in general, since there isn't much margin left.),
>> stores with parts for fancying up cars (like honda civics as far as I
>> can tell), etc.  The food court is all chinese stuff and very good (unlike
>> any chinese food you would find at the food court of a normal mall).
>>
>> --
>> Len Sorensen
>
> Maybe I'll go this weekend, to check it out, sounds like fun, although
> I really should have went 7yrs ago.  What else is in that area that I
> should check out, actually where is PM?

Pacific Mall has its' own web page:

  http://www.pacificmalltoronto.com/

It is an interesting place to visit...

Any event, the Mall is at the north east corner of Steeles and Kennedy.

Colin McGregor

> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Michael Lauzon
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:07:33 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:07:33 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6F3055.601@telly.org>

Michael Lauzon wrote:
> Maybe I'll go this weekend, to check it out, sounds like fun, although
> I really should have went 7yrs ago.  What else is in that area that I
> should check out, actually where is PM?
>   
Pacific Mall <http://www.pacificmalltoronto.com/home_page.html> is on
the northeast corner of Steeles and Kennedy Road in Markham.
http://www.pacificmalltoronto.com/home_page.html
There are other large Asian shopping areas directly to the east
<http://www.marketvillage.net/History_Subdir.htm> and south
<http://www.splendidchinamall.com/en/home.php> of PM.

Interesting that according to Wikipedia, Pacific Mall has some of the
most expensive retail floor space in the GTA, on par with Yorkville.

This youtube video <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_4rhRKXWB4> gives a
sense of what the insides of the place are like.

PS: you must try the food court on the top floor. Definitely different.
Check out Sun's Kitchen and it's made-while-you-watch noodles.

HTH,

Evan
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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:12:08 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:12:08 -0400
Subject: spam from cg.ca
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907280954s2b3e20bfyb930ce5d06d38651-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy> <7c50d3570907280954s2b3e20bfyb930ce5d06d38651@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6F3168.1080904@moores.ca>



Michael Lauzon wrote:
> 
> Well, the cg.ca was registered by a company in Montreal
> (http://can.ca), which you could have found out by using CIRA's own
> whois lookup.
> 
> 

That would be the registrar. Not the registered owner. these guys are
like Internic.ca, or tucows, etc... they do not own the domain.

Unfortunately you can find out precious little from a whois query any
more. It is almost useless.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:13:17 2009
From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:13:17 -0400
Subject: spam from cg.ca
In-Reply-To: <4A6F2B4F.2030904-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy>
	 <4A6F2B4F.2030904@telly.org>
Message-ID: <1248801197.8126.161.camel@cougar-hardy>

On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 12:46 -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> I will make sure this gets into the right hands at CIRA.

Thank you, Evan.  That is the best I could possibly ask for.

Terry.


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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:15:18 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:15:18 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <20090728165931.GX2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com> <20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org>

Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> I suppose T&T is a nice asian supermarket near it (just west of it
> on steeles)
There's a massive T&T store at Steeles & Warden. I frequent the one at
the Promenade; much better prices on vegetables, good fresh meat and fish.
http://www.tnt-supermarket.com/en/index.php?

As of this week, now owned by Loblaws.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/07/24/loblaw-tandt-takeover.html

>  but you can find those downtown now as well, so not as interesting.
Hey, it's a supermarket.

I must say that it I find shopping there ... entertaining. Maybe it's
the 1990s-era Casio keyboard music. Or the automated rice-cake maker
that was more fun than a Tiny Tom donut machine at the CNE. Or the
frequent samplings of Dim Sum filled with mystery meat. Or the chicken
feet under glass in the butcher section....

- Evan



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From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:17:03 2009
From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:17:03 -0400
Subject: spam from cg.ca
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907280954s2b3e20bfyb930ce5d06d38651-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy>
	 <7c50d3570907280954s2b3e20bfyb930ce5d06d38651@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1248801423.8126.164.camel@cougar-hardy>

On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 12:54 -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:37, Terrence Enger<tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >                       I do not know who owns the domain
> Well, the cg.ca was registered by a company in Montreal
> (http://can.ca), which you could have found out by using CIRA's own
> whois lookup.
> 

Oh, I read that as the retistrar.



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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:22:10 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:22:10 -0400
Subject: spam from cg.ca
In-Reply-To: <4A6F3168.1080904-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy> <7c50d3570907280954s2b3e20bfyb930ce5d06d38651@mail.gmail.com> <4A6F3168.1080904@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <4A6F33C2.70802@telly.org>

Darryl Moore wrote:
> Unfortunately you can find out precious little from a whois query any more. It is almost useless.
>   

There are legitimate reasons for registrants (the domain owners) to
request privacy in public WHOIS requests. However, CIRA does have
accurate contact information which it can access when required.

- Evan

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:29:27 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:29:27 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500-aZibgg63UJu44ywRPIzf9A@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com> <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local> <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com> <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local>
Message-ID: <20090728172927.GZ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 01:04:12PM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote:
> Sharing /boot works too. Just may need more understanding on grub and 
> booting mechanism. That said, I do agree that chain-loading may be 
> easier.

Chain loading means you can allow each linux to automatically manage grub.
Sharing /boot means you can forget about having them automatically
managed.

Of course I must admit I have never installed multiple linuxes on
one system.  I can't see any use.  If I want to play around and try out
a distribution I will use a virtual machine.  I just never reboot so
why would I want to have two systems to maintain where somethings work
in one and some things in the other.  Just not useful to me.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:32:13 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:32:13 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <4A6F3226.3070608-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com> <20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org>
Message-ID: <20090728173213.GA2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 01:15:18PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> 
> > I suppose T&T is a nice asian supermarket near it (just west of it
> > on steeles)
> There's a massive T&T store at Steeles & Warden. I frequent the one at
> the Promenade; much better prices on vegetables, good fresh meat and fish.
> http://www.tnt-supermarket.com/en/index.php?
> 
> As of this week, now owned by Loblaws.
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/07/24/loblaw-tandt-takeover.html

Yes.  I like loblaws and I like T&T.  As long as they leave it alone
(as they say they will) I think it should work out just fine.

> >  but you can find those downtown now as well, so not as interesting.
> Hey, it's a supermarket.
> 
> I must say that it I find shopping there ... entertaining. Maybe it's
> the 1990s-era Casio keyboard music. Or the automated rice-cake maker
> that was more fun than a Tiny Tom donut machine at the CNE. Or the
> frequent samplings of Dim Sum filled with mystery meat. Or the chicken
> feet under glass in the butcher section....

The rice cake maker is quite something.  Who knew rice had that kind of
explosive power in it.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:43:20 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:43:20 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <4A6F3226.3070608-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907281043o55ec92e1t98f3cac7dc8b760d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 13:15, Evan Leibovitch<evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>
>> I suppose T&T is a nice asian supermarket near it (just west of it
>> on steeles)
> There's a massive T&T store at Steeles & Warden. I frequent the one at
> the Promenade; much better prices on vegetables, good fresh meat and fish.
> http://www.tnt-supermarket.com/en/index.php?
>
> As of this week, now owned by Loblaws.
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/07/24/loblaw-tandt-takeover.html
>
>> ?but you can find those downtown now as well, so not as interesting.
> Hey, it's a supermarket.
>
> I must say that it I find shopping there ... entertaining. Maybe it's
> the 1990s-era Casio keyboard music. Or the automated rice-cake maker
> that was more fun than a Tiny Tom donut machine at the CNE. Or the
> frequent samplings of Dim Sum filled with mystery meat. Or the chicken
> feet under glass in the butcher section....
>
> - Evan
>

Hey, don't be dissing Tiny Tom, I worked for them in '02, lots of free
donuts to take home at the end of the night!  I've shopped at T&T (in
Calgary when I lived there, as well as the one in West Edmonton Mall
-- the one in WEM has to be the biggest in Canada; and used to go
there after work as a Commissionaire, when I lived there, and of
course the on on Cherry St here in Toronto).

I'm not a big fan of noodles, but will check out the food court, will
have to get something to eat anyway.  Of course before I go, I have to
go see Harry Potter in IMAX!



-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 17:44:26 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:44:26 -0400
Subject: spam from cg.ca
In-Reply-To: <4A6F33C2.70802-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy> <7c50d3570907280954s2b3e20bfyb930ce5d06d38651@mail.gmail.com> <4A6F3168.1080904@moores.ca> <4A6F33C2.70802@telly.org>
Message-ID: <4A6F38FA.7080604@moores.ca>

I'm yet to be convinced of this. What are they? We have a land registry
so anyone with a few bucks can find out who the owners are of any piece
of real estate.

True, your car ownership is generally private, but your telephone number
is not unless you pay extra for that privilege.

What is the rational for keeping this private?

Put the onus on the other foot and ask why it should be made public?
Fair enough. At times I've wanted to know what country a particular
website worked in, which is a fair question in many circumstances. I've
wanted to contact the owner when neither neither the website was up to
date or even the CRIA database. (It's amazing what you can discover by
doing a little bit of cross referencing.)

Given that the purpose of a domain name is as a medium to communicate to
the public, does the public not have some right right to know who it is
they are communicating with?

If you really want to hide your identity, there are still ways of doing
it with rented servers, virtual domains, and dynamic DNS, so those that
really insist upon anonymity can still have it, but in general the
public's right to know who they are dealing with is met.

As well, we have reverse whois which will tell you who owns a particular
set of IP numbers. These have not been made private? So what the
difference between reverse IP, and reverse telephone numbers vs domain
names? Very little that I can see.



Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> Darryl Moore wrote:
>> Unfortunately you can find out precious little from a whois query any more. It is almost useless.
>>   
> 
> There are legitimate reasons for registrants (the domain owners) to
> request privacy in public WHOIS requests. However, CIRA does have
> accurate contact information which it can access when required.
> 
> - Evan
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 18:16:24 2009
From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:16:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <4A6F3226.3070608-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com>
    <20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
    <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org>
Message-ID: <2611.99.253.254.243.1248804984.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>

Hint on Pacific Mall:

The parking lot is a zoo on weekends. There's free on-street parking on a
small street running south off steeles opposite the mall. No one seems to
use it. That's where I dump my car.

-- 
Peter Hiscocks
Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto
http://www.syscompdesign.com
USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator
647-839-0325

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 18:29:42 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:29:42 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <2611.99.253.254.243.1248804984.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org> 
	<2611.99.253.254.243.1248804984.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907281129s65d76d65vc02cbe5cc9aa0cf@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 14:16, <phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hint on Pacific Mall:
>
> The parking lot is a zoo on weekends. There's free on-street parking on a
> small street running south off steeles opposite the mall. No one seems to
> use it. That's where I dump my car.
>

Thanks for the hint, but I never learned how to drive, yeah I'll be 33
in August and still have no idea how to drive!  I'll be taking the TTC
there and back.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 19:43:16 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:43:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <20090728172927.GZ2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com> <3a97ef0907261809o64a32fa8qb5d21700c3c9902f@mail.gmail.com> <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local> <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com>
 <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local>
 <20090728172927.GZ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907281537390.30607@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>

| Of course I must admit I have never installed multiple linuxes on
| one system.  I can't see any use.

Here's one of my uses.

I normally upgrade to a new version of a Linux distro by doing a clean
install, with the new and old installations sharing /home and swap but
each having their own /.  This is what I've done for roughly a decade.

At least these days, the cost of the disk space for / is tiny.

You, on the other hand, trust apt-get to do version upgrades.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 19:51:13 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:51:13 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <20090728172927.GZ2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>
	 <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <20090728172927.GZ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907281251i269e829brcfeff9a8fd2d375b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 01:04:12PM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote:
>> Sharing /boot works too. Just may need more understanding on grub and
>> booting mechanism. That said, I do agree that chain-loading may be
>> easier.
>
> Chain loading means you can allow each linux to automatically manage grub.
> Sharing /boot means you can forget about having them automatically
> managed.

Is there a how-to on on chaining, would it be found in the GRUB
how-to, if there is one? I would like to install fedora 11 when they
get their mirror update issues worked out, and want to make sure I am
not sharing the /boot partition between different distros.

> Of course I must admit I have never installed multiple linuxes on
> one system. ?I can't see any use. ?If I want to play around and try out
> a distribution I will use a virtual machine. ?I just never reboot so
> why would I want to have two systems to maintain where somethings work
> in one and some things in the other. ?Just not useful to me.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From slacker-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 20:01:21 2009
From: slacker-MOdoAOVCFFcswetKESUqMA at public.gmane.org (Slack Rat)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:01:21 +0200
Subject: OT: ASCII Tux
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907280650u1af4cd58m1f511f7d00ef7f9b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> (Michael Lauzon's message of "Tue\, 28 Jul 2009 09\:50\:02 -0400")
References: <7c50d3570907280650u1af4cd58m1f511f7d00ef7f9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87skgg37ce.fsf@darkstar.azurservers.com>

Michael Lauzon a ?crit profondement:

| I found this cool!:
| 
| http://www.100mb.nl/

Or get two for the price of one

http://azurservers.com/tlug/small.jpg
http://azurservers.com/tlug/big.jpg

- 
Slackrat
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 20:12:36 2009
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:12:36 -0400
Subject: OT: ASCII Tux
In-Reply-To: <87skgg37ce.fsf-4/PLUo9XfK9lY98wAZ3ymN+n+qDOcVZb@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280650u1af4cd58m1f511f7d00ef7f9b@mail.gmail.com>
 <87skgg37ce.fsf@darkstar.azurservers.com>
Message-ID: <20090728201236.GA30723@yam.witteman.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:01:21PM +0200, Slack Rat wrote:
>Michael Lauzon a ?crit profondement:
>
>| I found this cool!:
>| 
>| http://www.100mb.nl/
>
>Or get two for the price of one
>
>http://azurservers.com/tlug/small.jpg
>http://azurservers.com/tlug/big.jpg

In future, please mark such links as Not Safe For Work (NSFW).  Thank
you.
-- 

yours,

William

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 20:14:39 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:14:39 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907281537390.30607-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local> <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com> <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728172927.GZ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907281537390.30607@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <20090728201439.GB2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 03:43:16PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
> Here's one of my uses.
> 
> I normally upgrade to a new version of a Linux distro by doing a clean
> install, with the new and old installations sharing /home and swap but
> each having their own /.  This is what I've done for roughly a decade.
> 
> At least these days, the cost of the disk space for / is tiny.
> 
> You, on the other hand, trust apt-get to do version upgrades.

Well not quite, but I do trust me to be able to put the pieces back
together if apt-get fails.

I wonder if btrfs snapshots would be a neat way to try out upgrades.

The other neat method to do test updates would be using a ram unionfs.
There was a presentation at the linux symposium this year from someone
doing exactly that.

See here:
http://rtr.ca/run_from_ram/

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 20:22:18 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:22:18 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907281251i269e829brcfeff9a8fd2d375b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local> <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com> <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728172927.GZ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907281251i269e829brcfeff9a8fd2d375b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728202217.GC2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 03:51:13PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
> Is there a how-to on on chaining, would it be found in the GRUB
> how-to, if there is one? I would like to install fedora 11 when they
> get their mirror update issues worked out, and want to make sure I am
> not sharing the /boot partition between different distros.

Well here is an example:

sda1: windows with the windows boot loader
sda2: linux #1 with root and boot all in one (since generally there isn't a good reason to seperate them)
sda3: linux #2 with its root and boot all in one
sda4: extended partition containing all logical partitions for swap, /home, whatever you want
MBR contains grub for linux #1
sda3's boot sector contains grub for linux #2

The grub config for linux #1 would then look something like this:

title Windows
root (hd0,0)
chainloader +1

title Linux 2.6.26
root (hd0,1)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-686 root=/dev/sda2 ro ...
initrd /boot/initrd-2.6.26-1-686

title Linux 2.6.26
root (hd0,1)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-686 root=/dev/sda2 ro ...
initrd /boot/initrd-2.6.26-1-686

title Other GRUB
root (hd0,2)
chainloader +1

The two middle ones could then be managed automatically by linux #1,
while grub for linux #2 can be managed by linux #2.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 20:39:54 2009
From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:39:54 -0400
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <20090728140726.GS2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com>
	<3a97ef0907272227x11176f32g18a80e79b75fc1cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A6ECD17.7040503@rogers.com>
	<20090728140726.GS2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20090728163954.4fdae1f0.tleslie@tcn.net>


does the linux run in the background if you are playing a game?

-tl

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:07:27 -0400
lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 06:04:07AM -0400, Stephen wrote:
> > Tyler Aviss wrote:
> >> Just a question about the PS3. What's the Linux like, and what can you
> >> actually do with it? Are there proper video drivers etc?
> >>   
> > You get a full blown Linux. Video is 1080p
> 
> 2D video.  No 3D access at all.  Decent performance 2D, but 2D only.
> 
> > The only real limit is due to the memory of the PS3, only 512mb
> 
> And since that is 256MB for the CPU and 256MB for graphics, you really
> only have 256MB, and because linux runs in a virtual machine essentially
> on the PS3, you actually get 212MB in linux.
> 
> > I connect mine to my Linux server where my music library is, and play  
> > through my sound system
> 
> Of course being about 3.2GHz but an in order powerpc design, it performs
> similarly to a 1.6GHz G4.  Now if you write code to take advantage of
> the SPEs, then performance becomes very impresive.
> 
> -- 
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


-- 
ted leslie <tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 20:39:57 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:39:57 -0400
Subject: [OT] Audiophile Question
In-Reply-To: <20090728163954.4fdae1f0.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261442h364e0385j735c595ca938e6fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6CD769.8010608@rogers.com> <3a97ef0907272227x11176f32g18a80e79b75fc1cc@mail.gmail.com> <4A6ECD17.7040503@rogers.com> <20090728140726.GS2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090728163954.4fdae1f0.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <20090728203956.GD2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 04:39:54PM -0400, ted leslie wrote:
> does the linux run in the background if you are playing a game?

No.  The linux virtual machine is just one application you can run just
as games are.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 21:00:16 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:00:16 -0700
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <20090728144041.GT2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com>
	 <20090727170254.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <1f13df280907271412t6692585dnd0bf1b56876b82ac@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090728144041.GT2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907281400n21a76cd1kd2fe22ff7502827f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 05:12:15PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
>> 2009/7/27 Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:
>> > On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 09:30:05AM -0400, meng wrote:
>> >> I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
>> >>
>> >> I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
>> >> As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
>> >> Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
>> >>
>> >> I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
>> >> Any help will be appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks and cheers :-)
>> >
>> > The obvious answer would be: Use FAT32.
>> >
>> > Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.
>>
>> It isn't? ?Tell that to a DVD image file. ?I don't keep more than one
>> or two lying around at any given time, but one was enough to convince
>> me I didn't need to use FAT32 anymore.
>
> Well certainly video DVDs contain multiple 1GB files, not 4GB+ files.
> Raw iso dumps of a DVD would be bigger. ?I suppose you could learn to
> use split and cat.
>
> I would't let windows write to ext2/3, and I don't trust ntfs writing
> from linux, so for exchanging data I will stick to fat32. ?For the few
> files over 4GB I can split them. ?They don't happen often enough to be
> a problem.
>
> Anyhow, some people claim ntfs-3g works well.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

"I suppose you could learn to use split and cat"

Lennart, this is the type of response I've pretty much grown used  to
seeing from you, but I really wish that you would take a moment to
consider that not everybody has your particular goals, nor is it
respectful or reflects well upon the list when you make comments in
this manner.

Frankly, it makes the group in general look like the sarcastic
elitists that many have tried to help remove from the reputation of
Linux users or even computer-enthusiasts in general. Can you PLEASE
tone it down a bit.

Many of your opinions are insightful and intelligent. The delivery,
however, could use a bit more tact.


Thank you,


TJA
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 21:10:37 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:10:37 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <20090727170254.GO2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com>
	 <20090727170254.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907281410t40bb081j25db67d063edd991@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,


> > Thanks and cheers :-)
>
> The obvious answer would be: Use FAT32.
>

I second that.  The other reason why its the file system of my choice is
most video machines, car stereos and other portables seem to mount it
natively. The other file systems are not as widely supported, in my
experience at least.

>
> Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.
>

FAT32 has issues creating file system greater than 4 GB on windows. If you
create the partition and file system from Linux though, you can create go
past that limit, which mean it should not factor in on decision making

>
> --
>
William
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 21:23:04 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:23:04 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907281400n21a76cd1kd2fe22ff7502827f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com> <20090727170254.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280907271412t6692585dnd0bf1b56876b82ac@mail.gmail.com> <20090728144041.GT2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <3a97ef0907281400n21a76cd1kd2fe22ff7502827f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728212304.GE2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 02:00:16PM -0700, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> "I suppose you could learn to use split and cat"

Well back before linux we used to do that on DOS when we wanted to move
a file bigger than one floppy.  The copy command in dos has a /b option
for sticking the parts back together again although I can't remember
what we used to split them in the first place.

cat part1 part2 part3 > whole
is the same as
copy /b part1 + part2 + part3 whole (in dos)

multipart zip and rar didn't always exist.

> Lennart, this is the type of response I've pretty much grown used  to
> seeing from you, but I really wish that you would take a moment to
> consider that not everybody has your particular goals, nor is it
> respectful or reflects well upon the list when you make comments in
> this manner.

It was intended as good advice.  If you thought it was not respectful
then you should adjust your meter somewhere because it was really intended
as a very useful thing to use.  Probably the best solution in fact.

The fact is that out of all the filesystems in the world, FAT12, FAT16
and FAT32 are the only ones likely to be read and written correctly
by every OS out there.  NTFS won't, exFAT certainly won't and ext2/3/4
certainly won't.  You can take your changes on some OSs with one of them,
but it just might not work.  Sticking with the simplest and most reliable
for data exchange makes sense.

Unfortunately FAT32 has a 4GB filesize limit.  You can live with it
(I do) and for almost all your files it will work.  When you encounter
a file that is too big then you use a tool to split it for transport,
such as 'split' or rar or zip or whatever you like.

If you don't think that's convinient enough, well then you will have to
take your chances with either the ext2 driver for windows or the NTFS
driver for linux.  Either way they are not as likely to work as using
FAT is.

Either way 4GB filesize limits is not often a problem, and the one example
given so far is not in fact a problem if you backup DVD images in what
is probably the prefered format (which is the files only as dvdbackup
does it.  Plays very well with most DVD player programs in linux).
Having elliminated DVD images as a 4GB problem, that must not leave very
many things, and using a splitting tool for transport in those few cases
is probably worth it for most people rather than taking chances with
corrupting the filesystem by using a more complex filesystem between
different OSs.

exFAT could someday be a great solution if microsoft didn't purposely try
to prevent people from using it without paying a fortunet to microsoft
for a license.  They just have no interest in a universal filesystem
for data exchange.  They don't want to share their filesystems with
anyone and they don't want to support anyone elses filesystems either.

> Frankly, it makes the group in general look like the sarcastic
> elitists that many have tried to help remove from the reputation of
> Linux users or even computer-enthusiasts in general. Can you PLEASE
> tone it down a bit.

I would suggest the same back at you.

> Many of your opinions are insightful and intelligent. The delivery,
> however, could use a bit more tact.

TLUG is much much better than it used to be.  People are actually being
rather nice to each other.  In general people are showing way more
patience than they used to (and way more than you are likely to see on
most IRC channels and probably a lot of other mailing lists).

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 21:24:31 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:24:31 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907281410t40bb081j25db67d063edd991-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com> <20090727170254.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <b8f780870907281410t40bb081j25db67d063edd991@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728212431.GF2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 05:10:37PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
> I second that.  The other reason why its the file system of my choice is
> most video machines, car stereos and other portables seem to mount it
> natively. The other file systems are not as widely supported, in my
> experience at least.
> 
> FAT32 has issues creating file system greater than 4 GB on windows. If you
> create the partition and file system from Linux though, you can create go
> past that limit, which mean it should not factor in on decision making

No FAT32 has a 4GB filesize limit.  Windows won't create a FAT32 bigger
than 32GB, although mkdosfs has no such problem and windows will happily
use a FAT32 partition larger than 32GB.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 21:27:53 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:27:53 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <20090728202217.GC2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <20090728172927.GZ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <a05162a70907281251i269e829brcfeff9a8fd2d375b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090728202217.GC2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907281427j7934e8a3oe78311a4170984d1@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Lennart
Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 03:51:13PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>> Is there a how-to on on chaining, would it be found in the GRUB
>> how-to, if there is one? I would like to install fedora 11 when they
>> get their mirror update issues worked out, and want to make sure I am
>> not sharing the /boot partition between different distros.
>
> Well here is an example:
>
> sda1: windows with the windows boot loader
> sda2: linux #1 with root and boot all in one (since generally there isn't a good reason to seperate them)
> sda3: linux #2 with its root and boot all in one
> sda4: extended partition containing all logical partitions for swap, /home, whatever you want
> MBR contains grub for linux #1
> sda3's boot sector contains grub for linux #2
>
> The grub config for linux #1 would then look something like this:
>
> title Windows
> root (hd0,0)
> chainloader +1
>
> title Linux 2.6.26
> root (hd0,1)
> kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-686 root=/dev/sda2 ro ...
> initrd /boot/initrd-2.6.26-1-686
>
> title Linux 2.6.26
> root (hd0,1)
> kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-686 root=/dev/sda2 ro ...
> initrd /boot/initrd-2.6.26-1-686
>
> title Other GRUB
> root (hd0,2)
> chainloader +1
>
> The two middle ones could then be managed automatically by linux #1,
> while grub for linux #2 can be managed by linux #2.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> --

Thanks Len, that seems pretty straight forward....I was going to say
something about monkeys, but I recall what erupted last time ;)

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 21:31:58 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:31:58 -0400
Subject: OT: ASCII Tux
In-Reply-To: <87skgg37ce.fsf-4/PLUo9XfK9lY98wAZ3ymN+n+qDOcVZb@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280650u1af4cd58m1f511f7d00ef7f9b@mail.gmail.com> <87skgg37ce.fsf@darkstar.azurservers.com>
Message-ID: <4A6F6E4E.9070900@alteeve.com>

Slack Rat wrote:
> Michael Lauzon a ?crit profondement:
> 
> | I found this cool!:
> | 
> | http://www.100mb.nl/
> 
> Or get two for the price of one
> 
> http://azurservers.com/tlug/small.jpg
> http://azurservers.com/tlug/big.jpg
> 
> - 
> Slackrat

Dude, that wasn't thread-safe.

Madi
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 21:37:04 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:37:04 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907281410t40bb081j25db67d063edd991-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com>
	 <20090727170254.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <b8f780870907281410t40bb081j25db67d063edd991@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907281437g4f01ee3m204ecc96095c6524@mail.gmail.com>

>
>> Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.
>>
>
> FAT32 has issues creating file system greater than 4 GB on windows. If you
> create the partition and file system from Linux though, you can create go
> past that limit, which mean it should not factor in on decision making
>
>>
>> By the way, I take back the above statement. It not any where near what
was in discussion here. I misread the thread. The 4GB limit on the file size
is a hard limit can not be avoided on any platform. Its actually driven by
the hardware I believe. I think most file system had this limit when running
on 32 bit hardware, at least I do remember oracle have it.  Something to do
with the 2 power 32 address limit.


> --
>>
> William
>
>
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 21:43:05 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:43:05 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907281437g4f01ee3m204ecc96095c6524-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com> <20090727170254.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <b8f780870907281410t40bb081j25db67d063edd991@mail.gmail.com> <b8f780870907281437g4f01ee3m204ecc96095c6524@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728214304.GG2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 05:37:04PM -0400, William Muriithi wrote:
> >
> >> Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.
> >>
> >
> > FAT32 has issues creating file system greater than 4 GB on windows. If you
> > create the partition and file system from Linux though, you can create go
> > past that limit, which mean it should not factor in on decision making
> >
> >>
> >> By the way, I take back the above statement. It not any where near what
> was in discussion here. I misread the thread. The 4GB limit on the file size
> is a hard limit can not be avoided on any platform. Its actually driven by
> the hardware I believe. I think most file system had this limit when running
> on 32 bit hardware, at least I do remember oracle have it.  Something to do
> with the 2 power 32 address limit.

Well depends on the structures.  FAT32 uses a 32bit unsigned value
to store the filesize, so that's the limit.  It uses a 32bit value to
handle cluster numbers and by using clusters of various sizes rather
large FAT32 filesystems can be made.

More modern filesystems of course use larger values to store the filesize
which solves the 4GB limit (or 2GB in the case of those that used signed
32bit values.

Of course iso9660 doesn't support files over 4GB either, and tends
to stick with 1GB.  UDF I believe supports larger than 4GB files but
most people try to stick to less than 2GB file sizes just to maintain
compatiblity with older OSs that might not support large file sizes.
Certainly DVD video sticks to 1GB per chunk.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 23:40:42 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:40:42 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <46cee1dbd8f6c6c67aad55837e3a0ea0@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:40:41 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs

> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 05:12:15PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> > 2009/7/27 Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:
> > > On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 09:30:05AM -0400, meng wrote:
> > >> I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
> > >>
> > >> I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
> > >> As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
> > >> Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
> > >>
> > >> I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
> > >> Any help will be appreciated.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks and cheers :-)
> > >
> > > The obvious answer would be: Use FAT32.
> > >
> > > Sure you are limited to 4GB files, but that isn't usually a problem.
> > 
> > It isn't?  Tell that to a DVD image file.  I don't keep more than one
> > or two lying around at any given time, but one was enough to convince
> > me I didn't need to use FAT32 anymore.
> 
> Well certainly video DVDs contain multiple 1GB files, not 4GB+ files.
> Raw iso dumps of a DVD would be bigger.  I suppose you could learn to
> use split and cat.

Yeah, I have some iso files bigger than 4GB.

> I would't let windows write to ext2/3, and I don't trust ntfs writing
> from linux, so for exchanging data I will stick to fat32.

Hmm, you wouldn't and don't?
I didn't think of that. Thanks for the input.
Actually, since I use Linux mainly, I go with ext2/3.
If I have to access(read) it from Windows, I'll use ext2ifs.
If I have to write, I'll use Linux.
After all, I used ext2ifs only once[after installation, to confirm that it worked] :-)
The data is mainly static so the access is mainly read.

  For the few
> files over 4GB I can split them.  They don't happen often enough to be
> a problem.
> 
> Anyhow, some people claim ntfs-3g works well.
> 
> -- 
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Tue Jul 28 23:54:30 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:54:30 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <ce96aaa9336cb311b8f715c73206f763@teksavvy.com>

-----Original message-----
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:42:55 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs

> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 08:33:27PM -0400, meng wrote:
> > Thanks for the suggestion, Len but as Giles pointed out, DVD image files mostly are bigger than 4 GB :-(
> > 
> > Often, I rent a DVD and throw it on my HDD and watch it later.
> > That way, I don't have to go to the store on the weekend and perhaps find that it's already out.
> 
> If you dump the DVD then the files are 1GB each, so that isn't a problem.
> Only a problem if you dump it as a raw ISO rather than as the files on
> the DVD (as dvdbackup would do). ?DVD videos avoided using large files
> on purpose.
> 
> > OT: I just ordered a DVD from amazon.co.uk (only available there).
> > I think it'll only play on a region-free player than can handle PAL, it's Region 2.
> > Or I'll have to watch it on my monitor with a region-free DVD-ROM :-)
> 
> I thought lots of players these days were multi region and multi format.
> 
> I am sure $40 would get you one at pacific mall if you don't have one,
> or play it on linux (I use my mythtv box for all such things).

I was planning to play it on linux but thanks :-)

It's nice to know a player will cost me only about $40; the DVD will cost me about the same, UK20.11 pounds :-)
I know it's OT but check out:
http://www.20secondsofjoy.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoANL1N-5l8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgWYVoXt474
It's awesome. She was at the screening at Hot Docs in Toronto and it was also screened at the Banff Mountain Film Festival.

Thanks, Len.


> -- 
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ?????Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 00:45:38 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:45:38 -0400
Subject: OT: Penguin Bootable Linux USB Drive Loads Ubuntu and Benefits World 
	Wildlife Fund
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907281745j22cf5a0du7cb31e64e74a5d4d@mail.gmail.com>

Active Media Products, makers of the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) Penguin
and Panda USB drives, has added to its Penguin line with a bootable
Linux USB (BLU) drive that the company says is compatible with Windows
7.

"These bootable Linux USB drives are handy for users who need
flexibility in an OS, and will be an invaluable tool for disaster
recovery and system maintenance," Active Media stated in a press
release (http://www.activemp.com/Press/bootable-linux-penguin-usb-PR.htm).

Designed in the likeness of an emperor penguin with "exacting detail,"
the new drives come in 1GB, 2GB, 4GB, 8GB, and 16GB capacities, each
one pre-loaded with the full installation of Ubuntu Linux 9.0.4.,
which occupies about 700MB of space.

The drives are available now ranging in price from $13 (1GB) to $44
(16GB), with 5 percent of the retail price donated to World Wildlife
Fund.


Article:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/penguin_bootable_linux_usb_drive_loads_ubuntu_and_benefits_world_wildlife_fund

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 00:24:00 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:24:00 -0700
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907281251i269e829brcfeff9a8fd2d375b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com> <a05162a70907261911s77d870dcj1de0aae660904ccb@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907271123530.15500@imac2006.local> <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com> <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728172927.GZ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907281251i269e829brcfeff9a8fd2d375b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1720BE4E-E99B-47D5-9D23-A845DD268D53@gmail.com>

Hey Rajinder,

Have you ever tried compiling a kernel? You could probably get away  
with actually having a shared /boot between Linuxes, and common  
kernel. If you just separate partitions for each OS that should work  
well enough.

You may even be able to use a Ubuntu kernel in RedHat. My main concern  
would be the initrd's. With a self compiled kernel you could likely  
compile all drivers necessary for booting in and not need an unitrd at  
all.

(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 28-Jul-09, at 12:51 PM, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Lennart
> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 01:04:12PM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo  
>> wrote:
>>> Sharing /boot works too. Just may need more understanding on grub  
>>> and
>>> booting mechanism. That said, I do agree that chain-loading may be
>>> easier.
>>
>> Chain loading means you can allow each linux to automatically  
>> manage grub.
>> Sharing /boot means you can forget about having them automatically
>> managed.
>
> Is there a how-to on on chaining, would it be found in the GRUB
> how-to, if there is one? I would like to install fedora 11 when they
> get their mirror update issues worked out, and want to make sure I am
> not sharing the /boot partition between different distros.
>
>> Of course I must admit I have never installed multiple linuxes on
>> one system.  I can't see any use.  If I want to play around and try  
>> out
>> a distribution I will use a virtual machine.  I just never reboot so
>> why would I want to have two systems to maintain where somethings  
>> work
>> in one and some things in the other.  Just not useful to me.
>>
>> --
>> Len Sorensen
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 01:34:20 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:34:20 -0400
Subject: spam from cg.ca
In-Reply-To: <4A6F38FA.7080604-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy>
	 <7c50d3570907280954s2b3e20bfyb930ce5d06d38651@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A6F3168.1080904@moores.ca> <4A6F33C2.70802@telly.org>
	 <4A6F38FA.7080604@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907281834yaa4ce91sd4fd5e6d4f5f9dbc@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/28 Darryl Moore <darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org>:
> Given that the purpose of a domain name is as a medium to communicate to
> the public, does the public not have some right right to know who it is
> they are communicating with?

Personally I'm happy to tell you who I am and give you my email
address on my website.  But I'm less than enthusiastic about having
random people on the internet being able to walk up to my front door.
Thus the P.O. Box I own - not that it does a great deal of good when
they can do a reverse look-up on the phone number.  You may have
noticed that there are some strange people on the internet and a
website that publicly declares your house address is, in my opinion,
less than ideal.

Hmm, maybe I should drop the .com and .org domains ...  Not likely.  I
don't really feel like paying for mail and phone forwarding services,
which increase the cost of domain ownership substantially.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 01:45:02 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:45:02 -0400
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <1720BE4E-E99B-47D5-9D23-A845DD268D53-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com>
	 <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local>
	 <20090728172927.GZ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <a05162a70907281251i269e829brcfeff9a8fd2d375b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1720BE4E-E99B-47D5-9D23-A845DD268D53@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907281845i6d9db74cv92d265d40e76f7d7@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Aviss,Tyler<tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hey Rajinder,
>
> Have you ever tried compiling a kernel? You could probably get away with
> actually having a shared /boot between Linuxes, and common kernel. If you
> just separate partitions for each OS that should work well enough.

I compiled a kernel in the past a long time ago, back in college when
I learned Slackware from a friend who showed me how to install it
using floppies. I am currently (slowly) going through Linux from
Scratch. I am at the point where I need to chroot and build my system
along with the kernel in Ernest. So that will give me the opportunity
to look at building the kernel more closely.

> You may even be able to use a Ubuntu kernel in RedHat. My main concern would
> be the initrd's. With a self compiled kernel you could likely compile all
> drivers necessary for booting in and not need an unitrd at all.

I guess I could try to build a new kernel for my current Kubuntu
install, since I've already backed up the image there is no fear of
messing things up.

When you say initrd's / unitrs are you speaking about the
start-up/shut-down scripts that need to be run? Not sure I follow, I
am still a quasi-newbie =)

> On 28-Jul-09, at 12:51 PM, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Lennart
>> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 01:04:12PM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sharing /boot works too. Just may need more understanding on grub and
>>>> booting mechanism. That said, I do agree that chain-loading may be
>>>> easier.
>>>
>>> Chain loading means you can allow each linux to automatically manage
>>> grub.
>>> Sharing /boot means you can forget about having them automatically
>>> managed.
>>
>> Is there a how-to on on chaining, would it be found in the GRUB
>> how-to, if there is one? I would like to install fedora 11 when they
>> get their mirror update issues worked out, and want to make sure I am
>> not sharing the /boot partition between different distros.
>>
>>> Of course I must admit I have never installed multiple linuxes on
>>> one system. ?I can't see any use. ?If I want to play around and try out
>>> a distribution I will use a virtual machine. ?I just never reboot so
>>> why would I want to have two systems to maintain where somethings work
>>> in one and some things in the other. ?Just not useful to me.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Len Sorensen
>>> --
>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>>
>> --
>> Kind Regards,
>> Rajinder Yadav
>> --
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 01:57:42 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:57:42 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
Message-ID: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>

For the BashPrompt HOWTO I suggest a bunch of code snippets that can
be incorporated into the prompt.  I used to keep a 25MHz 486DX with
16MB of memory for speed testing using the "time" command so I could
comment on the relative speed of the code snippets.  Sadly, I no
longer have that machine.  Hell, I don't even have a netbook.  These
days even the most ungainly and inefficient piece of bash code
executes in statistically insignificant amounts of time.  So the
question: is there a simple way to limit a process (Bash) and its
subprocesses so it runs very slowly and consistently, and so that
"time" inside this process knows about it and produces numbers on a
scale I'm looking for?  An emulator?  Some kind of throttling
mechanism?  Simple would be nice.  Thanks.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 02:05:42 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:05:42 -0400
Subject: OT: Penguin Bootable Linux USB Drive Loads Ubuntu and 
	Benefits World Wildlife Fund
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907281745j22cf5a0du7cb31e64e74a5d4d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907281745j22cf5a0du7cb31e64e74a5d4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907281905m11f93a12h36935faa95c2f192@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/28 Michael Lauzon <mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
> Active Media Products, makers of the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) Penguin
> and Panda USB drives, has added to its Penguin line with a bootable
> Linux USB (BLU) drive that the company says is compatible with Windows
> 7.
>
> "These bootable Linux USB drives are handy for users who need
> flexibility in an OS, and will be an invaluable tool for disaster
> recovery and system maintenance," Active Media stated in a press
> release (http://www.activemp.com/Press/bootable-linux-penguin-usb-PR.htm).
>
> Designed in the likeness of an emperor penguin with "exacting detail,"
> the new drives come in 1GB, 2GB, 4GB, 8GB, and 16GB capacities, each
> one pre-loaded with the full installation of Ubuntu Linux 9.0.4.,
> which occupies about 700MB of space.
>
> The drives are available now ranging in price from $13 (1GB) to $44
> (16GB), with 5 percent of the retail price donated to World Wildlife
> Fund.
>
>
> Article:
> http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/penguin_bootable_linux_usb_drive_loads_ubuntu_and_benefits_world_wildlife_fund

That's just awesome.

amazon.com carries this, amazon.ca doesn't seem to.  tigerdirect.ca
seems to be our main Canadian choice.  They carry (only) the 8GB
version for $34 and the 16GB for $61.  Steep for a 16GB stick, but you
get pre-installed Ubuntu and an _awesome_ Penguin stick.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 02:22:01 2009
From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:22:01 -0400
Subject: OT: Penguin Bootable Linux USB Drive Loads Ubuntu and 
	Benefits World Wildlife Fund
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907281905m11f93a12h36935faa95c2f192-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907281745j22cf5a0du7cb31e64e74a5d4d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1f13df280907281905m11f93a12h36935faa95c2f192@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f646b91f0907281922y409ced93r35ac6182ef488b01@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/28/09, Giles Orr <gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 2009/7/28 Michael Lauzon <mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
>> Active Media Products, makers of the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) Penguin
>> and Panda USB drives, has added to its Penguin line with a bootable
>> Linux USB (BLU) drive that the company says is compatible with Windows
>> 7.
>>
>> "These bootable Linux USB drives are handy for users who need
>> flexibility in an OS, and will be an invaluable tool for disaster
>> recovery and system maintenance," Active Media stated in a press
>> release (http://www.activemp.com/Press/bootable-linux-penguin-usb-PR.htm).
>>
>> Designed in the likeness of an emperor penguin with "exacting detail,"
>> the new drives come in 1GB, 2GB, 4GB, 8GB, and 16GB capacities, each
>> one pre-loaded with the full installation of Ubuntu Linux 9.0.4.,
>> which occupies about 700MB of space.
>>
>> The drives are available now ranging in price from $13 (1GB) to $44
>> (16GB), with 5 percent of the retail price donated to World Wildlife
>> Fund.
>>
>>
>> Article:
>> http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/penguin_bootable_linux_usb_drive_loads_ubuntu_and_benefits_world_wildlife_fund
>
> That's just awesome.
>
> amazon.com carries this, amazon.ca doesn't seem to.  tigerdirect.ca
> seems to be our main Canadian choice.  They carry (only) the 8GB
> version for $34 and the 16GB for $61.  Steep for a 16GB stick, but you
> get pre-installed Ubuntu and an _awesome_ Penguin stick.

That is neat, but... it will look just like however hundreds of other
penguin USB sticks out there....

Here is a way to get a unique USB stick:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Pimp-Your-USB-Drive/

If I had a little more free cash and a bit of ability carving this
would be the way to go...

Colin McGregor

> --
> Giles
> http://www.gilesorr.com/
> gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 02:28:57 2009
From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:28:57 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1248834537.8126.206.camel@cougar-hardy>

On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 21:57 -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> For the BashPrompt HOWTO I suggest a bunch of code snippets that can
> be incorporated into the prompt.  I used to keep a 25MHz 486DX with
> 16MB of memory for speed testing using the "time" command so I could
> comment on the relative speed of the code snippets.  Sadly, I no
> longer have that machine.  Hell, I don't even have a netbook.  These
> days even the most ungainly and inefficient piece of bash code
> executes in statistically insignificant amounts of time.  So the
> question: is there a simple way to limit a process (Bash) and its
> subprocesses so it runs very slowly and consistently, and so that
> "time" inside this process knows about it and produces numbers on a
> scale I'm looking for?  An emulator?  Some kind of throttling
> mechanism?  Simple would be nice.  Thanks.
> 

valgrind?


--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 03:03:47 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 23:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: spam from cg.ca
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907281834yaa4ce91sd4fd5e6d4f5f9dbc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1248799065.8126.155.camel@cougar-hardy>  <7c50d3570907280954s2b3e20bfyb930ce5d06d38651@mail.gmail.com>  <4A6F3168.1080904@moores.ca> <4A6F33C2.70802@telly.org>  <4A6F38FA.7080604@moores.ca>
 <1f13df280907281834yaa4ce91sd4fd5e6d4f5f9dbc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907282241300.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Giles Orr <gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| Personally I'm happy to tell you who I am and give you my email
| address on my website.  But I'm less than enthusiastic about having
| random people on the internet being able to walk up to my front door.

For perhaps 15 years my signature line included my (home) phone
number.  I used this in Usenet news and mailing list postings.

I only remember one surprising call that came from this., and it was
OK.  Someone who owned the same modem asked for help by phone rather
than email or netnews.

I decided signature lines were a waste of bandwidth.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 10:30:18 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 06:30:18 -0400
Subject: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907290330n7481d85dm6e8b38050eeebf72@mail.gmail.com>

July 27th, 2009

The Debian project has decided to adopt a new policy of time-based
development freezes for future releases, on a two-year cycle. Freezes
will from now on happen in the December of every odd year, which means
that releases will from now on happen sometime in the first half of
every even year. To that effect the next freeze will happen in
December 2009, with a release expected in spring 2010. The project
chose December as a suitable freeze date since spring releases proved
successful for the releases of Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 (codenamed ?Etch?)
and Debian GNU/Linux 5.0 (?Lenny?).

Time-based freezes will allow the Debian Project to blend the
predictability of time based releases with its well established policy
of feature based releases. The new freeze policy will provide better
predictability of releases for users of the Debian distribution, and
also allow Debian developers to do better long-term planning. A
two-year release cycle will give more time for disruptive changes,
reducing inconveniences caused for users. Having predictable freezes
should also reduce overall freeze time.

Since Debian's last release happened on Feb. 14th 2009, there will
only be approximately a one year period until its next release, Debian
GNU/Linux 6.0 (codenamed ?Squeeze?). This will be a one-time exception
to the two-year policy in order to get into the new time schedule. To
accommodate the needs of larger organisations and other users with a
long upgrade process, the Debian project commits to provide the
possibility to skip the upcoming release and do a skip-upgrade
straight from Debian GNU/Linux 5.0 (?Lenny?) to Debian GNU/Linux 7.0
(not yet codenamed).

Although the next freeze is only a short time away, the Debian project
hopes to achieve several prominent goals with it. The most important
are multi-arch support, which will improve the installation of 32 bit
packages on 64 bit machines, and an optimised boot process for better
boot performance and reliability.

The new freeze policy was proposed and agreed during the Debian
Project's yearly conference, DebConf, which is currently taking place
in Caceres, Spain. The idea was well received among the attending
project members.

http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 14:44:33 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:44:33 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <1248834537.8126.206.camel@cougar-hardy>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1248834537.8126.206.camel@cougar-hardy>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907290744m39b00fp40594481e31e38f6@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/28 Terrence Enger <tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org>:
> On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 21:57 -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
>> For the BashPrompt HOWTO I suggest a bunch of code snippets that can
>> be incorporated into the prompt. ?I used to keep a 25MHz 486DX with
>> 16MB of memory for speed testing using the "time" command so I could
>> comment on the relative speed of the code snippets. ?Sadly, I no
>> longer have that machine. ?Hell, I don't even have a netbook. ?These
>> days even the most ungainly and inefficient piece of bash code
>> executes in statistically insignificant amounts of time. ?So the
>> question: is there a simple way to limit a process (Bash) and its
>> subprocesses so it runs very slowly and consistently, and so that
>> "time" inside this process knows about it and produces numbers on a
>> scale I'm looking for? ?An emulator? ?Some kind of throttling
>> mechanism? ?Simple would be nice. ?Thanks.
>>
>
> valgrind?

I'm not familiar with valgrind, but from what little I can tell it
does slow things down but isn't intended for that purpose and there's
not really a controlled amount of slow-down?  Also it looks like it
needs to be involved when you compile stuff and I don't want to have
to recompile bash ... am I correct about this?  Please let me know,
thanks.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 15:46:38 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:46:38 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090729154638.GJ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 09:57:42PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> For the BashPrompt HOWTO I suggest a bunch of code snippets that can
> be incorporated into the prompt.  I used to keep a 25MHz 486DX with
> 16MB of memory for speed testing using the "time" command so I could
> comment on the relative speed of the code snippets.  Sadly, I no
> longer have that machine.  Hell, I don't even have a netbook.  These
> days even the most ungainly and inefficient piece of bash code
> executes in statistically insignificant amounts of time.  So the
> question: is there a simple way to limit a process (Bash) and its
> subprocesses so it runs very slowly and consistently, and so that
> "time" inside this process knows about it and produces numbers on a
> scale I'm looking for?  An emulator?  Some kind of throttling
> mechanism?  Simple would be nice.  Thanks.

Run qemu with a linux install inside.  If you go emulate a powerpc or
similar you will get a nice slow but proper linux box.  SHould get you
down to about 200Mhz equivalant at least on a modern system.

After all debian installs on everything so not a problem.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 15:19:13 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:19:13 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <46cee1dbd8f6c6c67aad55837e3a0ea0-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <46cee1dbd8f6c6c67aad55837e3a0ea0@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <20090729151913.GH2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 07:40:42PM -0400, meng wrote:
> Yeah, I have some iso files bigger than 4GB.
> 
> > I would't let windows write to ext2/3, and I don't trust ntfs writing
> > from linux, so for exchanging data I will stick to fat32.
> 
> Hmm, you wouldn't and don't?

Correct.

> I didn't think of that. Thanks for the input.
> Actually, since I use Linux mainly, I go with ext2/3.
> If I have to access(read) it from Windows, I'll use ext2ifs.
> If I have to write, I'll use Linux.

Well that's reasonable then.

> After all, I used ext2ifs only once[after installation, to confirm that it worked] :-)
> The data is mainly static so the access is mainly read.

Well if read only access is all you need from both OSs then you could
use either NTFS (which linux mounts readonly just fine) or ext2/ext3 if
you are willing to install software on windows to read it.  If you want
to write that is where I get concerned.

>   For the few
> > files over 4GB I can split them.  They don't happen often enough to be
> > a problem.
> > 
> > Anyhow, some people claim ntfs-3g works well.

Well I guess I just don't trust it yet.  NTFS has changed slightly with
every single windows release (as in mount an NTFS drive under win2k
and suddenly your NT4 box can't read it anymore until you install SP6.
That sucks.), so why would I trust the linux driver to write to it given
NTFS doesn't even have published specifications.

The ext2/3 driver for windows does have the advantage of a fully
documentated filesystem, but I don't trust windows to not screw up in
general (even on NTFS).  Also it requires extra software which makes it
less convinient for general purpose data transfers to random machines.

So for a read/write filesystem that I trust everybody to support and to
read/write correctly, FAT32 is the only choice.  Too bad about the 4GB
file size limit.  Chopping up files with whatever tool does the job
can work around that though.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 15:47:58 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:47:58 -0400
Subject: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907290330n7481d85dm6e8b38050eeebf72-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907290330n7481d85dm6e8b38050eeebf72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090729154757.GK2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 06:30:18AM -0400, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> July 27th, 2009
> 
> The Debian project has decided to adopt a new policy of time-based
> development freezes for future releases, on a two-year cycle. Freezes
> will from now on happen in the December of every odd year, which means
> that releases will from now on happen sometime in the first half of
> every even year. To that effect the next freeze will happen in
> December 2009, with a release expected in spring 2010. The project
> chose December as a suitable freeze date since spring releases proved
> successful for the releases of Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 (codenamed ?Etch?)
> and Debian GNU/Linux 5.0 (?Lenny?).
> 
> Time-based freezes will allow the Debian Project to blend the
> predictability of time based releases with its well established policy
> of feature based releases. The new freeze policy will provide better
> predictability of releases for users of the Debian distribution, and
> also allow Debian developers to do better long-term planning. A
> two-year release cycle will give more time for disruptive changes,
> reducing inconveniences caused for users. Having predictable freezes
> should also reduce overall freeze time.
> 
> Since Debian's last release happened on Feb. 14th 2009, there will
> only be approximately a one year period until its next release, Debian
> GNU/Linux 6.0 (codenamed ?Squeeze?). This will be a one-time exception
> to the two-year policy in order to get into the new time schedule. To
> accommodate the needs of larger organisations and other users with a
> long upgrade process, the Debian project commits to provide the
> possibility to skip the upcoming release and do a skip-upgrade
> straight from Debian GNU/Linux 5.0 (?Lenny?) to Debian GNU/Linux 7.0
> (not yet codenamed).
> 
> Although the next freeze is only a short time away, the Debian project
> hopes to achieve several prominent goals with it. The most important
> are multi-arch support, which will improve the installation of 32 bit
> packages on 64 bit machines, and an optimised boot process for better
> boot performance and reliability.

Dependancy based init just hit unstable this week.

ia32-apt-get is in progress and is starting to work, although I am not
sure it is a great way to do it yet (interface wise, the backend of it
works very well).

> The new freeze policy was proposed and agreed during the Debian
> Project's yearly conference, DebConf, which is currently taking place
> in Caceres, Spain. The idea was well received among the attending
> project members.
> 
> http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729

-- 
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 15:23:49 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:23:49 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <ce96aaa9336cb311b8f715c73206f763-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <ce96aaa9336cb311b8f715c73206f763@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <20090729152349.GI2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 07:54:30PM -0400, meng wrote:
> I was planning to play it on linux but thanks :-)
> 
> It's nice to know a player will cost me only about $40; the DVD will cost me about the same, UK20.11 pounds :-)
> I know it's OT but check out:
> http://www.20secondsofjoy.com/
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoANL1N-5l8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgWYVoXt474
> It's awesome. She was at the screening at Hot Docs in Toronto and it was also screened at the Banff Mountain Film Festival.

Apparently it can be done for $30:

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=012271&cid=782.923

$29.99 for a PAL/NTSC upconverting to 720p/1080i with HDMI DVD player
that also plays MP3 discs and DivX files.  OK that's just getting silly.
I doubt the build quality is that great, but hey if it works.  $30 would
only get me the DVD writer for a PC, so can't complain about the price.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 16:30:29 2009
From: tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org (Terrence Enger)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:30:29 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907290744m39b00fp40594481e31e38f6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1248834537.8126.206.camel@cougar-hardy>
	 <1f13df280907290744m39b00fp40594481e31e38f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1248885029.7696.6.camel@cougar-hardy>

On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 10:44 -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> 2009/7/28 Terrence Enger <tenger-P1ovA8G34VBEfu+5ix1nRw at public.gmane.org>:
> > On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 21:57 -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> >> For the BashPrompt HOWTO I suggest a bunch of code snippets that can
> >> be incorporated into the prompt.  I used to keep a 25MHz 486DX with
> >> 16MB of memory for speed testing using the "time" command so I could
> >> comment on the relative speed of the code snippets.  Sadly, I no
> >> longer have that machine.  Hell, I don't even have a netbook.  These
> >> days even the most ungainly and inefficient piece of bash code
> >> executes in statistically insignificant amounts of time.  So the
> >> question: is there a simple way to limit a process (Bash) and its
> >> subprocesses so it runs very slowly and consistently, and so that
> >> "time" inside this process knows about it and produces numbers on a
> >> scale I'm looking for?  An emulator?  Some kind of throttling
> >> mechanism?  Simple would be nice.  Thanks.
> >>
> >
> > valgrind?
> 
> I'm not familiar with valgrind, but from what little I can tell it
> does slow things down but isn't intended for that purpose and there's
> not really a controlled amount of slow-down?  Also it looks like it
> needs to be involved when you compile stuff and I don't want to have
> to recompile bash ... am I correct about this?  Please let me know,
> thanks.
> 

Whoops, I am not familiar enough to justify opening my mouth.  I
shudda put in a smiley or waited for a brighter hour of the
day. I thought of valgrind because of its reputation for
producing remarkable slowdown.

I apologize for distracting your attention with a smart-ass comment.

Terry.


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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 16:59:48 2009
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:59:48 -0400
Subject: Screen Blanking in X
Message-ID: <20090729165948.GA17383@yam.witteman.ca>

I am trying to turn off the powersaving features of X, specifically
screen blanking, display powerdown etc.

I do this because I turn off my monitor when I am not in front of it,
but when I turn it back on, I want it to come right back.  Also, when I
am watching something I don't want the screen to blank while I'm in the
middle.

I started here:

http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/x-screen-blanking.html

and updated my xorg.conf with this:

  Option      "BlankTime" "0"
  Option      "Standby" "0"
  Option      "Suspend" "0"
  Option      "OffTime" "0"

Unfortunately, this is not doing the trick - it is still in a
screen-blanked state when I return to it later.  (Yes, I restarted X,
but good idea.)

Does anyone know where else this might be set?  (Debian testing is the
distro.)  Thanks.
-- 

yours,

William

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 17:01:13 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:01:13 -0400
Subject: Screen Blanking in X
In-Reply-To: <20090729165948.GA17383-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090729165948.GA17383@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <20090729170113.GL2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 12:59:48PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> I am trying to turn off the powersaving features of X, specifically
> screen blanking, display powerdown etc.
> 
> I do this because I turn off my monitor when I am not in front of it,
> but when I turn it back on, I want it to come right back.  Also, when I
> am watching something I don't want the screen to blank while I'm in the
> middle.
> 
> I started here:
> 
> http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/x-screen-blanking.html
> 
> and updated my xorg.conf with this:
> 
>   Option      "BlankTime" "0"
>   Option      "Standby" "0"
>   Option      "Suspend" "0"
>   Option      "OffTime" "0"
> 
> Unfortunately, this is not doing the trick - it is still in a
> screen-blanked state when I return to it later.  (Yes, I restarted X,
> but good idea.)
> 
> Does anyone know where else this might be set?  (Debian testing is the
> distro.)  Thanks.

Option "DPMS"?

gnome-power-manager?  (That one took me a while to find in the past)

xscrensaver?

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 17:06:12 2009
From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:06:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: new kernel newbie corner column
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907291305360.9944@localhost>


  nothing overly deep this week -- http://cli.gs/0AZ6pt.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day                               Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

        Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.

Web page:                                          http://crashcourse.ca
Twitter:                                       http://twitter.com/rpjday
"Kernel Newbie Corner" column @ linux.com:          http://cli.gs/WG6WYX
========================================================================
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 17:22:53 2009
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:22:53 -0400
Subject: Screen Blanking in X
In-Reply-To: <20090729170113.GL2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090729165948.GA17383@yam.witteman.ca>
 <20090729170113.GL2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20090729172253.GA18396@yam.witteman.ca>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 01:01:13PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 12:59:48PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
>> I am trying to turn off the powersaving features of X, specifically
>> screen blanking, display powerdown etc.
>> 
>> I do this because I turn off my monitor when I am not in front of it,
>> but when I turn it back on, I want it to come right back.  Also, when I
>> am watching something I don't want the screen to blank while I'm in the
>> middle.
>> 
>> I started here:
>> 
>> http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/x-screen-blanking.html
>> 
>> and updated my xorg.conf with this:
>> 
>>   Option      "BlankTime" "0"
>>   Option      "Standby" "0"
>>   Option      "Suspend" "0"
>>   Option      "OffTime" "0"
>> 
>> Unfortunately, this is not doing the trick - it is still in a
>> screen-blanked state when I return to it later.  (Yes, I restarted X,
>> but good idea.)
>> 
>> Does anyone know where else this might be set?  (Debian testing is the
>> distro.)  Thanks.
>
>Option "DPMS"?

Oh, there it is, in a different Section.  I'll comment that out and
test.  I shall report back.

>gnome-power-manager?  (That one took me a while to find in the past)
>
>xscrensaver?

Not using either at the moment, but good thoughts.
-- 

yours,

William

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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 17:58:42 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:58:42 -0400
Subject: Screen Blanking in X
In-Reply-To: <20090729172253.GA18396-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090729165948.GA17383@yam.witteman.ca> <20090729170113.GL2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090729172253.GA18396@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <20090729175842.GM2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 01:22:53PM -0400, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote:
> Oh, there it is, in a different Section.  I'll comment that out and
> test.  I shall report back.

I think X.org default to on for DPMS, so commenting it out may not do it.
Might have to explicitly disable DPMS.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 18:21:50 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:21:50 -0400
Subject: new kernel newbie corner column
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907291305360.9944@localhost>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0907291305360.9944@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907291121y22c265efg3369b0f81aced27@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Robert P. J. Day<rpjday at crashcourse.ca> wrote:
>
> ?nothing overly deep this week -- http://cli.gs/0AZ6pt.
>
> rday
> --
>
> ========================================================================
> Robert P. J. Day ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
> ? ? ? ?Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry.
>
> Web page: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?http://crashcourse.ca
> Twitter: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://twitter.com/rpjday
> "Kernel Newbie Corner" column @ linux.com: ? ? ? ? ?http://cli.gs/WG6WYX
> ========================================================================
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

I never been so busy learning so many things at once, I still need to
catch up with your kernel articles! btw, the other article you said
you might have 'pooched' in a rush to get it out, it looked fine to me
=)

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav

From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 19:10:35 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:10:35 -0700
Subject: Screen Blanking in X
In-Reply-To: <20090729165948.GA17383-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090729165948.GA17383@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <5C7DAD11-9488-4C0D-B648-80122D305224@gmail.com>

KDE/gnome both have their own powersaving stuff too, I had to override  
them for stuff on my systems. Maybe there?

(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 29-Jul-09, at 9:59 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman <william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org 
 > wrote:

> I am trying to turn off the powersaving features of X, specifically
> screen blanking, display powerdown etc.
>
> I do this because I turn off my monitor when I am not in front of it,
> but when I turn it back on, I want it to come right back.  Also,  
> when I
> am watching something I don't want the screen to blank while I'm in  
> the
> middle.
>
> I started here:
>
> http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/x-screen-blanking.html
>
> and updated my xorg.conf with this:
>
>  Option      "BlankTime" "0"
>  Option      "Standby" "0"
>  Option      "Suspend" "0"
>  Option      "OffTime" "0"
>
> Unfortunately, this is not doing the trick - it is still in a
> screen-blanked state when I return to it later.  (Yes, I restarted X,
> but good idea.)
>
> Does anyone know where else this might be set?  (Debian testing is the
> distro.)  Thanks.
> -- 
>
> yours,
>
> William
>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 19:15:54 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aviss,Tyler)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:15:54 -0700
Subject: root partition move
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907281845i6d9db74cv92d265d40e76f7d7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A6CD010.4040700@rogers.com> <a05162a70907271243q37ace06aqcb1299164e03a017@mail.gmail.com> <20090727210830.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907271953k5a671cd4l8616958619f32a34@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281109360.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728160424.GW2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0907281258480.15500@imac2006.local> <20090728172927.GZ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <a05162a70907281251i269e829brcfeff9a8fd2d375b@mail.gmail.com> <1720BE4E-E99B-47D5-9D23-A845DD268D53@gmail.com> <a05162a70907281845i6d9db74cv92d265d40e76f7d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <688B5827-6A25-4FB4-83B0-64B45FB2111B@gmail.com>

Quite often the kernel loads with inital RAMdisk (initrd) in memory  
prior to the OS base. The unitrd has basic stuff like modules/ 
components for SATA/RAID/interfaces/etc needed to actually get Linux  
up to the point of mounting root

(sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)

On 28-Jul-09, at 6:45 PM, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Aviss,Tyler<tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Hey Rajinder,
>>
>> Have you ever tried compiling a kernel? You could probably get away  
>> with
>> actually having a shared /boot between Linuxes, and common kernel.  
>> If you
>> just separate partitions for each OS that should work well enough.
>
> I compiled a kernel in the past a long time ago, back in college when
> I learned Slackware from a friend who showed me how to install it
> using floppies. I am currently (slowly) going through Linux from
> Scratch. I am at the point where I need to chroot and build my system
> along with the kernel in Ernest. So that will give me the opportunity
> to look at building the kernel more closely.
>
>> You may even be able to use a Ubuntu kernel in RedHat. My main  
>> concern would
>> be the initrd's. With a self compiled kernel you could likely  
>> compile all
>> drivers necessary for booting in and not need an unitrd at all.
>
> I guess I could try to build a new kernel for my current Kubuntu
> install, since I've already backed up the image there is no fear of
> messing things up.
>
> When you say initrd's / unitrs are you speaking about the
> start-up/shut-down scripts that need to be run? Not sure I follow, I
> am still a quasi-newbie =)
>
>> On 28-Jul-09, at 12:51 PM, Rajinder Yadav <devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Lennart
>>> Sorensen<lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 01:04:12PM -0400, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sharing /boot works too. Just may need more understanding on  
>>>>> grub and
>>>>> booting mechanism. That said, I do agree that chain-loading may be
>>>>> easier.
>>>>
>>>> Chain loading means you can allow each linux to automatically  
>>>> manage
>>>> grub.
>>>> Sharing /boot means you can forget about having them automatically
>>>> managed.
>>>
>>> Is there a how-to on on chaining, would it be found in the GRUB
>>> how-to, if there is one? I would like to install fedora 11 when they
>>> get their mirror update issues worked out, and want to make sure I  
>>> am
>>> not sharing the /boot partition between different distros.
>>>
>>>> Of course I must admit I have never installed multiple linuxes on
>>>> one system.  I can't see any use.  If I want to play around and  
>>>> try out
>>>> a distribution I will use a virtual machine.  I just never reboot  
>>>> so
>>>> why would I want to have two systems to maintain where somethings  
>>>> work
>>>> in one and some things in the other.  Just not useful to me.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Len Sorensen
>>>> --
>>>> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>>>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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>>>>
>>> --
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Rajinder Yadav
>>> --
> --
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 19:29:55 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:29:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <20090728173213.GA2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com> <20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org> <20090728173213.GA2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907291528030.8748@castor.opentrend.net>

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> Yes.  I like loblaws and I like T&T.  As long as they leave it alone
> (as they say they will) I think it should work out just fine.

Yeah they better not mess with T&T :)  If they made T&T more like Loblaws 
they would only be hurting themselves as the democraphic is different.

I'm always finding new and exciting things at T&T.

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 19:31:16 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:31:16 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907291528030.8748-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org> 
	<20090728173213.GA2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907291528030.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907291231o6eff1ebcw4eeef02714d641f0@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 15:29, Robert Brockway<robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Yeah they better not mess with T&T :) ?If they made T&T more like Loblaws
> they would only be hurting themselves as the democraphic is different.
>
> I'm always finding new and exciting things at T&T.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rob
>


I always get stuck at the beverages, especially the one at WEM in Edmonton.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
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From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 19:45:38 2009
From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:45:38 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907291528030.8748-VmJVFCIrpYC0CtQDJS5xOuTW4wlIGRCZ@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com> <20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org> <20090728173213.GA2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907291528030.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
Message-ID: <4A70A6E2.80700@telly.org>

Robert Brockway wrote:
> Yeah they better not mess with T&T :)  If they made T&T more like
> Loblaws they would only be hurting themselves as the democraphic is
> different.

Ah, but think of the synergy:

"Coming soon to Zehrs, No Frills and Real Canadian Superstores:
Presidents' Choice preserved bean curd,  'Memories of Ho Chi Minh City'
soup base, and Ziggy's Kimchi"

As for me, I'm just looking forward to collecting PC Points at T&T.

- Evan

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From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 19:53:06 2009
From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:53:06 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <4A70A6E2.80700-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org>
	 <20090728173213.GA2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907291528030.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
	 <4A70A6E2.80700@telly.org>
Message-ID: <f735edd00907291253j4aa99b6avb87d7a99a4d1001b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Evan Leibovitch<evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> ... Ziggy's Kimchi
>

You are not a well man... ;-)
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 20:05:25 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:05:25 -0400
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <f735edd00907291253j4aa99b6avb87d7a99a4d1001b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org> 
	<20090728173213.GA2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907291528030.8748@castor.opentrend.net> 
	<4A70A6E2.80700@telly.org> <f735edd00907291253j4aa99b6avb87d7a99a4d1001b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907291305l7515635cld3dbd2881661a287@mail.gmail.com>

Well, it turns out I can't go to PM this Saturday, the Caribana parade
is this Saturday, of course I couldn't care less about the parade, I
just go for the food!  Way to not represent part of my heritage.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 20:54:47 2009
From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:54:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: linuxcaffe
Message-ID: <loom.20090729T205405-104@post.gmane.org>

I'm sitting in the linux caffe now. Anyone in here besides me ? :)

Peter 

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From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 20:57:29 2009
From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:57:29 -0400
Subject: linuxcaffe
In-Reply-To: <loom.20090729T205405-104-eS7Uydv5nfjZ+VzJOa5vwg@public.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20090729T205405-104@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1248901049.19811.5.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>

On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 20:54 +0000, Peter wrote:
> I'm sitting in the linux caffe now. Anyone in here besides me ? :)
> 
Look behind you.  I'm here.

--matt

> Peter 
> 
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

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From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 21:12:45 2009
From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:12:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: linuxcaffe
References: <loom.20090729T205405-104@post.gmane.org> <1248901049.19811.5.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20090729T211153-733@post.gmane.org>

G. Matthew Rice <matt at ...> writes: 
> Look behind you.  I'm here.

I did and youre not here :) I wear a black T shirt and jeans, and have an open
laptop in front of me. Stand up and be counted.

Peter


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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 21:44:12 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:44:12 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <f83b2fc85be2e64acfefca46b38062a1@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907291444q5ce5e2e0k4a93cf1cd5e884e4@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 9:30 AM, meng<meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
>
> I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
> As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
> Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
>
> I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
> Any help will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks and cheers :-)
>
> Meng
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

One thing that I hadn't really thought of and now is just crossing my mind...
What not use both? I have a 16GB card for my EEE with a secondary ext2
partition for the Linux stuff, and a smaller VFAT primary for the odd
occasion when I need to easily ferry stuff to a windows box.
No reason you couldn't have a little of both, other than that you'd
have to slice up your space a bit.
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 21:46:09 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:46:09 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> For the BashPrompt HOWTO I suggest a bunch of code snippets that can
> be incorporated into the prompt. ?I used to keep a 25MHz 486DX with
> 16MB of memory for speed testing using the "time" command so I could
> comment on the relative speed of the code snippets. ?Sadly, I no
> longer have that machine. ?Hell, I don't even have a netbook. ?These
> days even the most ungainly and inefficient piece of bash code
> executes in statistically insignificant amounts of time. ?So the
> question: is there a simple way to limit a process (Bash) and its
> subprocesses so it runs very slowly and consistently, and so that
> "time" inside this process knows about it and produces numbers on a
> scale I'm looking for? ?An emulator? ?Some kind of throttling
> mechanism? ?Simple would be nice. ?Thanks.
>
> --
> Giles
> http://www.gilesorr.com/
> gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

This might seem like a dump answer,but what about inserting sleep
commands into the script, etc?
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From edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 22:49:11 2009
From: edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (edward chin)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:49:11 +0200
Subject: P1 128RAM
Message-ID: <8369b0fa0907291549j15eefe6er592b1eef4c3ab52c@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have any recent experience with a distro on something this old?
There are lots of suggestions on fora like DSL, Puppy, Deli, and even
Mepis 6.5 (I've been unable to locate an iso even at their site - it
bounces to 8.0.06).
Most posts say stay away from DSL. I tried two v of Puppy but can't
get it to run on this box.
I'm sending this post from the box cited using Knoppix 3.2, but the
video output is poor.

The box is from ACER MMX 233

TIA
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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 23:03:40 2009
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:03:40 -0400
Subject: P1 128RAM
In-Reply-To: <8369b0fa0907291549j15eefe6er592b1eef4c3ab52c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <8369b0fa0907291549j15eefe6er592b1eef4c3ab52c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99a6c38f0907291603r75ff7919pfdd1457d449d0c3@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 6:49 PM, edward chin<edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Does anyone have any recent experience with a distro on something this old?
> There are lots of suggestions on fora like DSL, Puppy, Deli, and even
> Mepis 6.5 (I've been unable to locate an iso even at their site - it
> bounces to 8.0.06).
> Most posts say stay away from DSL. I tried two v of Puppy but can't
> get it to run on this box.
> I'm sending this post from the box cited using Knoppix 3.2, but the
> video output is poor.
>
> The box is from ACER MMX 233

About 2 months ago I ran into a similar situation.  For that machine I
used an old copy of Ubuntu 5.10 which, while a little slow, seemed to
work just fine.

-- 
  Scott Elcomb
  http://www.psema4.com/   @psema4
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From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 23:16:51 2009
From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:16:51 -0400
Subject: P1 128RAM
In-Reply-To: <8369b0fa0907291549j15eefe6er592b1eef4c3ab52c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <8369b0fa0907291549j15eefe6er592b1eef4c3ab52c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A70D863.4080309@rogers.com>

edward chin wrote:
> Does anyone have any recent experience with a distro on something this old?
> There are lots of suggestions on fora like DSL, Puppy, Deli, and even
> Mepis 6.5 (I've been unable to locate an iso even at their site - it
> bounces to 8.0.06).
> Most posts say stay away from DSL. I tried two v of Puppy but can't
> get it to run on this box.
> I'm sending this post from the box cited using Knoppix 3.2, but the
> video output is poor.
>
> The box is from ACER MMX 233
>
> TIA
>   
Antix should run on it. There was a post recently on the Mepis forums 
where the author claimed to have it running on a 486.

http://antix.mepis.org/index.php/Main_Page

John

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From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Wed Jul 29 23:33:35 2009
From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:33:35 -0400
Subject: P1 128RAM
In-Reply-To: <4A70D863.4080309-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
References: <8369b0fa0907291549j15eefe6er592b1eef4c3ab52c@mail.gmail.com> <4A70D863.4080309@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <4A70DC4F.7030406@rogers.com>

John McGregor wrote:
> edward chin wrote:
>> Does anyone have any recent experience with a distro on something 
>> this old?
>> There are lots of suggestions on fora like DSL, Puppy, Deli, and even
>> Mepis 6.5 (I've been unable to locate an iso even at their site - it
>> bounces to 8.0.06).
>> Most posts say stay away from DSL. I tried two v of Puppy but can't
>> get it to run on this box.
>> I'm sending this post from the box cited using Knoppix 3.2, but the
>> video output is poor.
>>
>> The box is from ACER MMX 233
>>
>> TIA
>>   
> Antix should run on it. There was a post recently on the Mepis forums 
> where the author claimed to have it running on a 486.
>
> http://antix.mepis.org/index.php/Main_Page
>
> John
>
> -- 
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
I've got the flu and wasn't paying attention. According the the Antix 
wiki, it's limited to a Pentium II and above and I haven't been able to 
locate the post I mentioned.

Sorry

John
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 01:20:53 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:20:53 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <a1ee87959469acba05ac02c3388ccc8f@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: Tyler Aviss tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:44:12 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs

> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 9:30 AM, meng<meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > I'm getting an external drive enclosure for an old IDE hard drive.
> >
> > I going to load data(and movies) on it and want it accessible from Windows XP and Linux.
> > As to the file system, should I use ext2/3 on the drive and use ext2ifs to access it from Windows?
> > Or use the ntfs file system and use ntfs-3g to access the drive from Linux?
> >
> > I use Linux so the answer should be self-evident but will appreciate any considerations that I may have overlooked.
> > Any help will be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks and cheers :-)
> >
> > Meng
> > --
> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> >
> 
> One thing that I hadn't really thought of and now is just crossing my mind..
> What not use both? I have a 16GB card for my EEE with a secondary ext2
> partition for the Linux stuff, and a smaller VFAT primary for the odd
> occasion when I need to easily ferry stuff to a windows box.
> No reason you couldn't have a little of both, other than that you'd
> have to slice up your space a bit.

I haven't thought of it either :-)
Thanks for the suggestion, but...

I will go with ext2/3 because my data and movies are OS-independent.
Sure, I have a few .doc, .odt and .pdf files but either Linux or Windows will handle them.
Storing data even in proprietary format on ext2/3, I believe, will not be a problem.
I have a few tax return files in QuickTax.
I believe if need be, I can transfer the files to Windows and use QuickTax with them.
I also have the pdf copies of the tax returns.

My data are static archives.
The movies I delete when I have viewed them, I do not collect movies.
I use Windows for the odd program that I want/need and also so that I don't become totally Windows-ignorant.
Word is still useful for a resume :-)

Thanks for the help in making an informed choice.

Meng



> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 01:24:53 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:24:53 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <fb788dd89efcb78f8d2d4d99a517748f@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:19:13 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs

> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 07:40:42PM -0400, meng wrote:
> > Yeah, I have some iso files bigger than 4GB.
> > 
> > > I would't let windows write to ext2/3, and I don't trust ntfs writing
> > > from linux, so for exchanging data I will stick to fat32.
> > 
> > Hmm, you wouldn't and don't?
> 
> Correct.
> 
> > I didn't think of that. Thanks for the input.
> > Actually, since I use Linux mainly, I go with ext2/3.
> > If I have to access(read) it from Windows, I'll use ext2ifs.
> > If I have to write, I'll use Linux.
> 
> Well that's reasonable then.
> 
> > After all, I used ext2ifs only once[after installation, to confirm that it worked] :-)
> > The data is mainly static so the access is mainly read.
> 
> Well if read only access is all you need from both OSs then you could
> use either NTFS (which linux mounts readonly just fine) or ext2/ext3 if
> you are willing to install software on windows to read it.  If you want
> to write that is where I get concerned.
> 
> >   For the few
> > > files over 4GB I can split them.  They don't happen often enough to be
> > > a problem.
> > > 
> > > Anyhow, some people claim ntfs-3g works well.
> 
> Well I guess I just don't trust it yet.  NTFS has changed slightly with
> every single windows release (as in mount an NTFS drive under win2k
> and suddenly your NT4 box can't read it anymore until you install SP6.
> That sucks.), so why would I trust the linux driver to write to it given
> NTFS doesn't even have published specifications.
> 
> The ext2/3 driver for windows does have the advantage of a fully
> documentated filesystem, but I don't trust windows to not screw up in
> general (even on NTFS).  Also it requires extra software which makes it
> less convinient for general purpose data transfers to random machines.

Thanks for explaining your opinion and helping me to make an informed choice.
These are points that I didn't even think of.

> So for a read/write filesystem that I trust everybody to support and to
> read/write correctly, FAT32 is the only choice.  Too bad about the 4GB
> file size limit.  Chopping up files with whatever tool does the job
> can work around that though.

That is an option I must play with :-)

> -- 
> Len Sorensen
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 01:48:53 2009
From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:48:53 -0400
Subject: UTF8 encoding & Bash
Message-ID: <4A70FC05.10906@alteeve.com>

Hi all,

   I've got a problem that I *thought* was perl, but turns out to be 
more fundamental. I switched to bash and the problem remains...

   There is a program called 'fantasdic' which takes a Japanese 
character and returns information on it. When it outputs to STDOUT it's 
fine, but when the output is redirected to a file, 0 bytes are written. 
This only happens with certain characters, no less.

   For example;

-----------------------------------------------
#!/bin/bash

echo "### Start ? ###"
/usr/bin/fantasdic -o Japanese ?

echo "### Start ? ###"
/usr/bin/fantasdic -o Japanese ?
-----------------------------------------------

   Run this (as a script or as individual commands) and the output is 
clearly there and complete.

   However, if you redirect the output to a file, the first character 
will write out to the file where the second one will not. Actually, most 
of the output from the first character will write... it seems to 
double-encode at one point and bail, but I digress as I suspect solving 
the second command's problem will solve the first. :)

   Any idea what's going on here?

Madi
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 02:37:42 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:37:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [OT] Pacific Mall
In-Reply-To: <4A70A6E2.80700-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907280920w21255cc1y34fab81bbf580b1b@mail.gmail.com> <20090728165931.GX2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4A6F3226.3070608@telly.org> <20090728173213.GA2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907291528030.8748@castor.opentrend.net>
 <4A70A6E2.80700@telly.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907292232090.8748@castor.opentrend.net>

On Wed, 29 Jul 2009, Evan Leibovitch wrote:

> "Coming soon to Zehrs, No Frills and Real Canadian Superstores:
> Presidents' Choice preserved bean curd,  'Memories of Ho Chi Minh City'
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmm.  This is sounding good :)

Rob (the border line vegetarian)

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 02:48:10 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:48:10 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>
	 <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907291948t58dc6a67wf2c2eb4b32945425@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/29 Tyler Aviss <tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> For the BashPrompt HOWTO I suggest a bunch of code snippets that can
>> be incorporated into the prompt. ?I used to keep a 25MHz 486DX with
>> 16MB of memory for speed testing using the "time" command so I could
>> comment on the relative speed of the code snippets. ?Sadly, I no
>> longer have that machine. ?Hell, I don't even have a netbook. ?These
>> days even the most ungainly and inefficient piece of bash code
>> executes in statistically insignificant amounts of time. ?So the
>> question: is there a simple way to limit a process (Bash) and its
>> subprocesses so it runs very slowly and consistently, and so that
>> "time" inside this process knows about it and produces numbers on a
>> scale I'm looking for? ?An emulator? ?Some kind of throttling
>> mechanism? ?Simple would be nice. ?Thanks.
>
> This might seem like a dump answer,but what about inserting sleep
> commands into the script, etc?

While that would cause the scripts to run slowly, it wouldn't show
which ones "tax the system."  The idea is to see which scripts start
and run quickly on a low-powered system.  That's why the 486 was great
for this kind of testing.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 03:00:31 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:00:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: UTF8 encoding & Bash
In-Reply-To: <4A70FC05.10906-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A70FC05.10906@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907292254430.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Madison Kelly <linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>

|   There is a program called 'fantasdic' which takes a Japanese character and
| returns information on it. When it outputs to STDOUT it's fine, but when the
| output is redirected to a file, 0 bytes are written. This only happens with
| certain characters, no less.

stdio, for example, buffers more if the output device is not a tty.

If the program crashes or exits rudely, the buffers might not get
flushed.

Buffering on a pipe might be less than on a file (I don't remember).
Try
	/usr/bin/fantasdic -o Japanese ? | cat >destfile


Try
	/usr/bin/fantasdic -o Japanese ? ; echo "return code $?" >&2
That might show if the exit was bad.

You can always use strace.

From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 13:54:04 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:54:04 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <a1ee87959469acba05ac02c3388ccc8f-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <a1ee87959469acba05ac02c3388ccc8f@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <20090730135404.GN2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 09:20:53PM -0400, meng wrote:
> I haven't thought of it either :-)
> Thanks for the suggestion, but...
> 
> I will go with ext2/3 because my data and movies are OS-independent.
> Sure, I have a few .doc, .odt and .pdf files but either Linux or Windows will handle them.
> Storing data even in proprietary format on ext2/3, I believe, will not be a problem.
> I have a few tax return files in QuickTax.
> I believe if need be, I can transfer the files to Windows and use QuickTax with them.
> I also have the pdf copies of the tax returns.
> 
> My data are static archives.
> The movies I delete when I have viewed them, I do not collect movies.
> I use Windows for the odd program that I want/need and also so that I don't become totally Windows-ignorant.
> Word is still useful for a resume :-)
> 
> Thanks for the help in making an informed choice.

I just remembered there is another option for filesystem.  How about UDF-plain?

UDF plain is for read/write on any random access media.

Windows supports it, linux supports it, max filesize is 16EiB, supports
unix permissions and user/group, as well as whatever windows wants.

I haven't used it since the time I was using DVD-RAM drives for backups,
but it worked well for that.

UDF: Universal Disk Format.  Sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
And Microsoft doesn't own the spec to it.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 14:18:05 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:18:05 -0400
Subject: UTF8 encoding & Bash
In-Reply-To: <4A70FC05.10906-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A70FC05.10906@alteeve.com>
Message-ID: <20090730141805.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 09:48:53PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>   I've got a problem that I *thought* was perl, but turns out to be more 
> fundamental. I switched to bash and the problem remains...
>
>   There is a program called 'fantasdic' which takes a Japanese character 
> and returns information on it. When it outputs to STDOUT it's fine, but 
> when the output is redirected to a file, 0 bytes are written. This only 
> happens with certain characters, no less.
>
>   For example;
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> #!/bin/bash
>
> echo "### Start ? ###"
> /usr/bin/fantasdic -o Japanese ?
>
> echo "### Start ? ###"
> /usr/bin/fantasdic -o Japanese ?
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>   Run this (as a script or as individual commands) and the output is  
> clearly there and complete.
>
>   However, if you redirect the output to a file, the first character  
> will write out to the file where the second one will not. Actually, most  
> of the output from the first character will write... it seems to  
> double-encode at one point and bail, but I digress as I suspect solving  
> the second command's problem will solve the first. :)
>
>   Any idea what's going on here?

The program stupidly requries access to X to run.   If it has a command
line interface i addition to the X one, it should at least run without
access to X when used on the command line.

Seems someone wrote that without realizing what libs they were pulling in.

It also generates ^M at the end of lines, which is not unix compatible.
Except the last line which contains two pieces of non UTF8 garbage.
Looks like a bug for sure.

Of course it may also be missing the output and not using it in the
normal buffered way which might explain why the output is truncated.

Even running just the first fantasdic command gets truncated, never mind
the rest.  Seems like it is just in general a very buggy program.
It clearly doesn't use normal buffered output, nor does it seem to
understand proper line endings.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 14:19:01 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:19:01 -0400
Subject: P1 128RAM
In-Reply-To: <8369b0fa0907291549j15eefe6er592b1eef4c3ab52c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <8369b0fa0907291549j15eefe6er592b1eef4c3ab52c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090730141900.GP2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:49:11AM +0200, edward chin wrote:
> Does anyone have any recent experience with a distro on something this old?
> There are lots of suggestions on fora like DSL, Puppy, Deli, and even
> Mepis 6.5 (I've been unable to locate an iso even at their site - it
> bounces to 8.0.06).
> Most posts say stay away from DSL. I tried two v of Puppy but can't
> get it to run on this box.
> I'm sending this post from the box cited using Knoppix 3.2, but the
> video output is poor.

Debian would run just fine.  It runs fine on my 48M 486/66.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 14:20:47 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:20:47 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090730142047.GQ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 05:46:09PM -0400, Tyler Aviss wrote:
> This might seem like a dump answer,but what about inserting sleep
> commands into the script, etc?

That doesn't actually give any idea how long the script code takes to run.
The idea probably isn't to make it delay a lot, but to actually see how
much time the script is actually using.  It can be hard to compare the
efficiency of two pieces of script code if you machine is so fast that you
can't tell.  On a slower machine you could tell which is more efficient.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 15:13:22 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:13:22 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <20090730142047.GQ2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>
	 <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090730142047.GQ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907300813t29ae8b8dx6ac194be58b6365a@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/30 Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 05:46:09PM -0400, Tyler Aviss wrote:
>> This might seem like a dump answer,but what about inserting sleep
>> commands into the script, etc?
>
> That doesn't actually give any idea how long the script code takes to run.
> The idea probably isn't to make it delay a lot, but to actually see how
> much time the script is actually using. ?It can be hard to compare the
> efficiency of two pieces of script code if you machine is so fast that you
> can't tell. ?On a slower machine you could tell which is more efficient.

This is what I'm after.  I would prefer to do this on my current
desktop just for convenience, but nothing has come up that sounded
like it fits so far.  Weird that no one wants to slow their computer
down, I mean what's up with that?

It occurs to me that I have a 1200MHz Celeron with an Asus motherboard
and what appeared to be a highly adjustable BIOS: I can probably get
it to run at 200MHz(?) and that might do the trick.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
--
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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 15:26:28 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:26:28 -0400
Subject: LDAP and passwords
Message-ID: <4A71BBA4.2010907@moores.ca>

Hey folks,

Here is a question for anyone who knows a lot about LDAP.

I have LDAP running great on my network.

I can keep multiple address books
I can keep user passwords and group information
It links in nicely with the workstations so users can log in from any
machine and change their password easily using either a GUI or 'passwd'


The problem I have is with the various clients that run on the workstation.

when a user changes their password, it affects all network services from
address book access to mail servers to workstation logins.


Unfortunately every time they change password they also need to change
their clients. specifically Evolution/Thunderbird and the Firefox Weave
plugin. Is there any way that this can be done automatically so that
changing ones password does not have to become a multistep affair?

Inquiring minds want to know.

cheers,
darryl
--
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From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 15:52:08 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:52:08 -0700
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907300813t29ae8b8dx6ac194be58b6365a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>
	 <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090730142047.GQ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <1f13df280907300813t29ae8b8dx6ac194be58b6365a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907300852uc97da83he358b3f4b1eb066f@mail.gmail.com>

Can you get it down that low, or is that just the clock multiplier?

Another LUG member suggested trying Qemu and running it in a VM. I've
found posts online with others trying to do something
similar to you, and suggestions for limiting speed mentioned running
the VM with "ulimit" to limit CPU time and thus drag down the speed

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 2009/7/30 Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 05:46:09PM -0400, Tyler Aviss wrote:
>>> This might seem like a dump answer,but what about inserting sleep
>>> commands into the script, etc?
>>
>> That doesn't actually give any idea how long the script code takes to run.
>> The idea probably isn't to make it delay a lot, but to actually see how
>> much time the script is actually using. ?It can be hard to compare the
>> efficiency of two pieces of script code if you machine is so fast that you
>> can't tell. ?On a slower machine you could tell which is more efficient.
>
> This is what I'm after. ?I would prefer to do this on my current
> desktop just for convenience, but nothing has come up that sounded
> like it fits so far. ?Weird that no one wants to slow their computer
> down, I mean what's up with that?
>
> It occurs to me that I have a 1200MHz Celeron with an Asus motherboard
> and what appeared to be a highly adjustable BIOS: I can probably get
> it to run at 200MHz(?) and that might do the trick.
>
> --
> Giles
> http://www.gilesorr.com/
> gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 17:15:35 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 13:15:35 -0400
Subject: Site With Linux Apps Reprogrammed To Run On Windows
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907301015l62ef01ceta910c3dd532d0605@mail.gmail.com>

Many years ago I posted to this mailing list I believe, about a site I
found that had Linux apps that were reprogrammed to run on Windows.
Does anyone remember, or can point me in the direction of said site if
they know it?

-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 17:49:41 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 13:49:41 -0400
Subject: CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com>

Found on Slashdot
(http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/07/30/130249/CentOS-Project-Administrator-Goes-AWOL):

Lance Davis, the main project administrator for CentOS, a popular free
'rebuild' of Red Hat's Enterprise Linux, appears to have gone AWOL. In
an open letter* from his fellow CentOS developers, they describe the
precarious situation the project has been put in. There have been
attempts to contact him for some time now, as he's the sole
administrator for the centos.org domain, the IRC channels, and
apparently, CentOS funds. One can only hope that Lance gets in contact
with them and gets things sorted out.


* Open Letter (http://www.centos.org/):

July 30, 2009 04:39 UTC

This is an Open Letter to Lance Davis from fellow CentOS Developers

It is regrettable that we are forced to send this letter but we are
left with no other options. For some time now we have been attempting
to resolve these problems:

You seem to have crawled into a hole ... and this is not acceptable.

You have long promised a statement of CentOS project funds; to this
date this has not appeared.

You hold sole control of the centos.org domain with no deputy; this is
not proper.

You have, it seems, sole 'Founders' rights in the IRC channels with no
deputy ; this is not proper.

When I (Russ) try to call the phone numbers for UK Linux, and for you
individually, I get a telco intercept 'Lines are temporarily busy' for
the last two weeks. Finally yesterday, a voicemail in your voice
picked up, and I left a message urgently requesting a reply. Karanbir
also reports calling and leaving messages without your reply.

Please do not kill CentOS through your fear of shared management of the project.

Clearly the project dies if all the developers walk away.

Please contact me, or any other signer of this letter at once, to
arrange for the required information to keep the project alive at the
'centos.org' domain.

Sincerely,

Russ Herrold
Ralph Angenendt
Karanbir Singh
Jim Perrin
Donavan Nelson
Tim Verhoeven
Tru Huynh
Johnny Hughes



-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 18:18:36 2009
From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 14:18:36 -0400
Subject: CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090730141836.51034801.tleslie@tcn.net>

wow, i wonder if he took the money and ran?
this will really put a lot of distros under the microscope if it goes south.
distro's should have a trust set up for the funds, and proper procedure to spend them (not allowing a grab and run)
Shocking it happened to this distro.


-tl

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 13:49:41 -0400
Michael Lauzon <mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Found on Slashdot
> (http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/07/30/130249/CentOS-Project-Administrator-Goes-AWOL):
> 
> Lance Davis, the main project administrator for CentOS, a popular free
> 'rebuild' of Red Hat's Enterprise Linux, appears to have gone AWOL. In
> an open letter* from his fellow CentOS developers, they describe the
> precarious situation the project has been put in. There have been
> attempts to contact him for some time now, as he's the sole
> administrator for the centos.org domain, the IRC channels, and
> apparently, CentOS funds. One can only hope that Lance gets in contact
> with them and gets things sorted out.
> 
> 
> * Open Letter (http://www.centos.org/):
> 
> July 30, 2009 04:39 UTC
> 
> This is an Open Letter to Lance Davis from fellow CentOS Developers
> 
> It is regrettable that we are forced to send this letter but we are
> left with no other options. For some time now we have been attempting
> to resolve these problems:
> 
> You seem to have crawled into a hole ... and this is not acceptable.
> 
> You have long promised a statement of CentOS project funds; to this
> date this has not appeared.
> 
> You hold sole control of the centos.org domain with no deputy; this is
> not proper.
> 
> You have, it seems, sole 'Founders' rights in the IRC channels with no
> deputy ; this is not proper.
> 
> When I (Russ) try to call the phone numbers for UK Linux, and for you
> individually, I get a telco intercept 'Lines are temporarily busy' for
> the last two weeks. Finally yesterday, a voicemail in your voice
> picked up, and I left a message urgently requesting a reply. Karanbir
> also reports calling and leaving messages without your reply.
> 
> Please do not kill CentOS through your fear of shared management of the project.
> 
> Clearly the project dies if all the developers walk away.
> 
> Please contact me, or any other signer of this letter at once, to
> arrange for the required information to keep the project alive at the
> 'centos.org' domain.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Russ Herrold
> Ralph Angenendt
> Karanbir Singh
> Jim Perrin
> Donavan Nelson
> Tim Verhoeven
> Tru Huynh
> Johnny Hughes
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Michael Lauzon
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


-- 
ted leslie <tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org>
--
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 18:28:20 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 14:28:20 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <db9329562458182ac3548f105a6cc2ab@teksavvy.com>


-----Original message-----
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:54:04 -0400
To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
> 
> I just remembered there is another option for filesystem.  How about UDF-plain?
> 
> UDF plain is for read/write on any random access media.
> 
> Windows supports it, linux supports it, max filesize is 16EiB, supports
> unix permissions and user/group, as well as whatever windows wants.
> 
> I haven't used it since the time I was using DVD-RAM drives for backups,
> but it worked well for that.
> 
> UDF: Universal Disk Format.  Sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
> And Microsoft doesn't own the spec to it.

Thanks but I'll go with ext2/3 for now until I explore the possibilities.

It occurred to me that if I used FAT32, split and cat, I'd still need a "staging filesystem" that can handle over 4GB files.

>From a very quick look, I gather:

Video may pose some issues with splitting and joining which can be resolved.
See http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/05/join-and-split-files-including-video-in.html

UDF may also pose some issues, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format#Standalone_DVD_player_compatibility

All this is from a preliminary search. I'll have to look further when I have the time.

Thanks again.
--
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 18:50:10 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 14:50:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <20090730141836.51034801.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com> <20090730141836.51034801.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301444160.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: ted leslie <tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org>

| wow, i wonder if he took the money and ran?
| this will really put a lot of distros under the microscope if it goes south.
| distro's should have a trust set up for the funds, and proper procedure to spend them (not allowing a grab and run)
| Shocking it happened to this distro.

I'll be sad if CentOS folds.  I use it.

On the other hand, there are a lot of other distros around, and we do
have the source code.  That's probably enough security.

Imagine if we used a single source OS and then the provider decided
not to offer it any more.  Like, say, Windows XP.
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 19:10:23 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:10:23 -0400
Subject: CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301444160.3868-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090730141836.51034801.tleslie@tcn.net> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301444160.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907301210v1b28f856xd21047aa9a9732d4@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 14:50, D. Hugh Redelmeier<hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Imagine if we used a single source OS and then the provider decided
> not to offer it any more. ?Like, say, Windows XP.

Hey, 7 makes up for the debacle that was Vista, the only reason why I
use Windows as my main OS, I am a Gamer.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 19:16:41 2009
From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:16:41 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
In-Reply-To: <db9329562458182ac3548f105a6cc2ab-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
References: <db9329562458182ac3548f105a6cc2ab@teksavvy.com>
Message-ID: <20090730191641.GR2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 02:28:20PM -0400, meng wrote:
> 
> -----Original message-----
> From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen)
> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:54:04 -0400
> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org
> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
> > 
> > I just remembered there is another option for filesystem.  How about UDF-plain?
> > 
> > UDF plain is for read/write on any random access media.
> > 
> > Windows supports it, linux supports it, max filesize is 16EiB, supports
> > unix permissions and user/group, as well as whatever windows wants.
> > 
> > I haven't used it since the time I was using DVD-RAM drives for backups,
> > but it worked well for that.
> > 
> > UDF: Universal Disk Format.  Sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
> > And Microsoft doesn't own the spec to it.
> 
> Thanks but I'll go with ext2/3 for now until I explore the possibilities.
> 
> It occurred to me that if I used FAT32, split and cat, I'd still need a "staging filesystem" that can handle over 4GB files.
> 
> From a very quick look, I gather:
> 
> Video may pose some issues with splitting and joining which can be resolved.
> See http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/05/join-and-split-files-including-video-in.html
> 
> UDF may also pose some issues, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format#Standalone_DVD_player_compatibility

Your DVD player doesn't support your HD, so who cares?  That's a different
UDF format on DVD not HD.

> All this is from a preliminary search. I'll have to look further when I have the time.

-- 
Len Sorensen
--
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 19:17:19 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:17:19 -0400
Subject: LDAP and passwords
In-Reply-To: <4A71BBA4.2010907-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A71BBA4.2010907@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907301217p784629bbs30814cb2556aaf3f@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Unfortunately every time they change password they also need to change
> their clients. specifically Evolution/Thunderbird and the Firefox Weave
> plugin. Is there any way that this can be done automatically so that
> changing ones password does not have to become a multistep affair?
>

Unfortunately, there is not much you can do, unless you are ready to
complicate the setup a little.

You can look configuring all those applications to look for the passwords
directly from the ldap. From the way you describe it, it looks like they
indirectly depends on the ldap password - as in, they are using cached
password or local passwords. Which make your problem wield, in that, they
should not then be affected by ldap passwords at all.

Do you mind describing your setup a little?  Use evolutions as an example
and take us through the authentication process.


Alternatively, you can use kerberos. It has a little high learning curve,
but should be the best solution. Check if all your applications can use
kerberos, either directly or through pam before going that route though.

William

>
> Inquiring minds want to know.
>
> cheers,
> darryl
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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>
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 19:21:28 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:21:28 -0400
Subject: linuxcaffe
In-Reply-To: <loom.20090729T211153-733-eS7Uydv5nfjZ+VzJOa5vwg@public.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20090729T205405-104@post.gmane.org>
	 <1248901049.19811.5.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
	 <loom.20090729T211153-733@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907301221w6b7ee3c4ibe23eb28f6826217@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Peter<plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> G. Matthew Rice <matt at ...> writes:
>> Look behind you. ?I'm here.
>
> I did and youre not here :) I wear a black T shirt and jeans, and have an open
> laptop in front of me. Stand up and be counted.
>
> Peter
>
>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

Is this the geek version of the Harlequin novel... I would like to
know if there was a happy end? =P

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 19:25:17 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:25:17 -0400
Subject: Screen Blanking in X
In-Reply-To: <5C7DAD11-9488-4C0D-B648-80122D305224-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090729165948.GA17383@yam.witteman.ca>
	 <5C7DAD11-9488-4C0D-B648-80122D305224@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907301225r58ddca1ex76807ccd4d73ac4a@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Aviss,Tyler<tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> KDE/gnome both have their own powersaving stuff too, I had to override them
> for stuff on my systems. Maybe there?
>
> (sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)
>
> On 29-Jul-09, at 9:59 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman
> <william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> I am trying to turn off the powersaving features of X, specifically
>> screen blanking, display powerdown etc.
>>
>> I do this because I turn off my monitor when I am not in front of it,
>> but when I turn it back on, I want it to come right back. ?Also, when I
>> am watching something I don't want the screen to blank while I'm in the
>> middle.
>>
>> I started here:
>>
>> http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/x-screen-blanking.html
>>
>> and updated my xorg.conf with this:
>>
>> ?Option ? ? ?"BlankTime" "0"
>> ?Option ? ? ?"Standby" "0"
>> ?Option ? ? ?"Suspend" "0"
>> ?Option ? ? ?"OffTime" "0"
>>
>> Unfortunately, this is not doing the trick - it is still in a
>> screen-blanked state when I return to it later. ?(Yes, I restarted X,
>> but good idea.)
>>
>> Does anyone know where else this might be set? ?(Debian testing is the
>> distro.) ?Thanks.
>> --
>>
>> yours,
>>
>> William
>>
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

Doesn't the kernel take care of APM settings, is it not compiled in
and managed through your system settings as already mentioned?

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 19:28:16 2009
From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:28:16 -0700
Subject: linuxcaffe
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907301221w6b7ee3c4ibe23eb28f6826217-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20090729T205405-104@post.gmane.org>
	 <1248901049.19811.5.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
	 <loom.20090729T211153-733@post.gmane.org>
	 <a05162a70907301221w6b7ee3c4ibe23eb28f6826217@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a97ef0907301228w13aa9ec6yf0ff2e0dfe383785@mail.gmail.com>

... and then, from across the room, their eyes met.
Him with his long hair, tux shirt, and healthy smoothie, her with her
short pink hair and penguin tattoo.

Sadly, it did not work out, for she was a devout follower of Gentoo,
whereas he could not bring himself to forsake the ways of Debian under
which he was raised...

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Rajinder Yadav<devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Peter<plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> G. Matthew Rice <matt at ...> writes:
>>> Look behind you. ?I'm here.
>>
>> I did and youre not here :) I wear a black T shirt and jeans, and have an open
>> laptop in front of me. Stand up and be counted.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> --
>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>
> Is this the geek version of the Harlequin novel... I would like to
> know if there was a happy end? =P
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
> Rajinder Yadav
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>



-- 
Tyler Aviss
Systems Support
LPIC/LPIC-2
(778) 890-0942
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 19:36:44 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:36:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: linuxcaffe
In-Reply-To: <1248901049.19811.5.camel-EWWT1lLJxm2ye9+Y+OZS3dBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20090729T205405-104@post.gmane.org> <1248901049.19811.5.camel@hatsya.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301534310.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: G. Matthew Rice <matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org>

| On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 20:54 +0000, Peter wrote:
| > I'm sitting in the linux caffe now. Anyone in here besides me ? :)
| > 
| Look behind you.  I'm here.
| 
| --matt

Linux Caffe was on the CBC TV National News last night and I saw
neither of you there.

(They interviewed two denizens (one the proprietor) for a dumb Bing vs
Google story.)
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 19:40:22 2009
From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:40:22 -0400
Subject: Screen Blanking in X
In-Reply-To: <a05162a70907301225r58ddca1ex76807ccd4d73ac4a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090729165948.GA17383@yam.witteman.ca>
 <5C7DAD11-9488-4C0D-B648-80122D305224@gmail.com>
 <a05162a70907301225r58ddca1ex76807ccd4d73ac4a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090730194022.GA30259@yam.witteman.ca>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 03:25:17PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Aviss,Tyler<tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> KDE/gnome both have their own powersaving stuff too, I had to override them
>> for stuff on my systems. Maybe there?
>>
>> (sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)
>>
>> On 29-Jul-09, at 9:59 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman
>> <william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I am trying to turn off the powersaving features of X, specifically
>>> screen blanking, display powerdown etc.
>>>
>>> I do this because I turn off my monitor when I am not in front of it,
>>> but when I turn it back on, I want it to come right back. ?Also, when I
>>> am watching something I don't want the screen to blank while I'm in the
>>> middle.
>>>
>>> I started here:
>>>
>>> http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/x-screen-blanking.html
>>>
>>> and updated my xorg.conf with this:
>>>
>>> ?Option ? ? ?"BlankTime" "0"
>>> ?Option ? ? ?"Standby" "0"
>>> ?Option ? ? ?"Suspend" "0"
>>> ?Option ? ? ?"OffTime" "0"
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this is not doing the trick - it is still in a
>>> screen-blanked state when I return to it later. ?(Yes, I restarted X,
>>> but good idea.)
>>>
>>> Does anyone know where else this might be set? ?(Debian testing is the
>>> distro.) ?Thanks.

>Doesn't the kernel take care of APM settings, is it not compiled in
>and managed through your system settings as already mentioned?

APM has gone by the wayside some time ago for most things.  As for
"system settings", those only apply if you are running a desktop
environment like KDE, Gnome or XFCE.  I use a plain window manager
(Openbox) and there aren't any settings.  It looks like Lennart was on
the right track by pointing out that I have 'Option "DPMS"' in my
xorg.conf - once I set that to 'Option "DPMS" "FALSE"' and restart X, I
seem to be in the clear.

The way to test is to mess with my system clock, setting it forward a
couple of hours, and seeing if the screen goes black.  I haven't done
that yet, because the other running programs tend to get upset if you
mess with the clock too often.
-- 

yours,

William

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From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 20:00:04 2009
From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:00:04 -0400
Subject: GamerRe:CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907301210v1b28f856xd21047aa9a9732d4-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090730141836.51034801.tleslie@tcn.net>
	<alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301444160.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>
	<7c50d3570907301210v1b28f856xd21047aa9a9732d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090730160004.c35300f7.tleslie@tcn.net>

i have always found this odd,
i am a "Gamer", more so in the past.
I always buy the consoles, i.e. have XBOX360, PS3, nintendo-GC,
(will get wii eventually),
and i thought when i got the XBOX (used), do i want to buy something from Bill,
but really, if you buy/play 20 games a year for it, your dropping, a G$ for games on a console,
(and maybe 2-3G$ in total across a few of them)
to the game companies, granted MS gets some for Halo, etc,
but i figured it wasn't a boycott I would do, because it really hurts the game companies
(and me) if I do not get it (i.e. a xbox).
Having said that, I keep looking at the "windows" games in the stores, thinking if anything
good really comes out, i would maybe have to set up a MS box, aside from a business needed
vmware installed XP. but, and this is only a personal observation,
if its worth playing (except for some back ally x-rated stuff), its usually on the consoles,
and sometimes, only on the consoles, and sometimes, only exclusively on one console.

I just have never understood why people say Windows is needed for the games,
I have yet to see it needed for even one game yet.

of course if you are obtaining your software games (to load onto Windows)
at a very large discount, even a 100% discount :) ya then I guess that makes sence.

-tl

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:10:23 -0400
Michael Lauzon <mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 14:50, D. Hugh Redelmeier<hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Imagine if we used a single source OS and then the provider decided
> > not to offer it any more. ?Like, say, Windows XP.
> 
> Hey, 7 makes up for the debacle that was Vista, the only reason why I
> use Windows as my main OS, I am a Gamer.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Michael Lauzon
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> 


-- 
ted leslie <tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org>
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 20:18:33 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:18:33 -0400
Subject: LDAP and passwords
In-Reply-To: <4A71BBA4.2010907-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A71BBA4.2010907@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907301318l898d5c1g4d840375ee72d59c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Darryl Moore<darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Unfortunately every time they change password they also need to change
> their clients. specifically Evolution/Thunderbird and the Firefox Weave
> plugin. Is there any way that this can be done automatically so that
> changing ones password does not have to become a multistep affair?

Unfortunately,  if the clients are individually managing passwords,
then there is no way for this NOT to be a "multistep affair."

You'd need to have some sort of centralized "client authentication manager."

It's worth observing that Apple built such a thing for MacOS, called
Keychain.  Curiously, portions of it represent an implementation of
CSDA (Common Data Security Architecture), an Open Group framework
which, interestingly enough, has code available at SourceForge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keychain_(Mac_OS)
http://www.opengroup.org/security/cdsa.htm
http://sourceforge.net/projects/cdsa/

It strikes me that it would be more appropriate for these sorts of
applications to use Kerberos as an authentication management system.
For better or worse, applications don't tend to do so.
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Samuel Goldwyn  - "I'm willing to admit that I may not always be
right, but I am never wrong." -
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/samuel_goldwyn.html
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 21:13:22 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:13:22 -0400
Subject: Screen Blanking in X
In-Reply-To: <20090730194022.GA30259-BcIWU8F4MdiF6w9186ga+w@public.gmane.org>
References: <20090729165948.GA17383@yam.witteman.ca>
	 <5C7DAD11-9488-4C0D-B648-80122D305224@gmail.com>
	 <a05162a70907301225r58ddca1ex76807ccd4d73ac4a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090730194022.GA30259@yam.witteman.ca>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907301413w2d2209c7m31995c259751031a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 3:40 PM, William O'Higgins
Witteman<william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 03:25:17PM -0400, Rajinder Yadav wrote:
>>On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Aviss,Tyler<tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> KDE/gnome both have their own powersaving stuff too, I had to override them
>>> for stuff on my systems. Maybe there?
>>>
>>> (sent from my phone, so please excuse the typos)
>>>
>>> On 29-Jul-09, at 9:59 AM, William O'Higgins Witteman
>>> <william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am trying to turn off the powersaving features of X, specifically
>>>> screen blanking, display powerdown etc.
>>>>
>>>> I do this because I turn off my monitor when I am not in front of it,
>>>> but when I turn it back on, I want it to come right back. ?Also, when I
>>>> am watching something I don't want the screen to blank while I'm in the
>>>> middle.
>>>>
>>>> I started here:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/x-screen-blanking.html
>>>>
>>>> and updated my xorg.conf with this:
>>>>
>>>> ?Option ? ? ?"BlankTime" "0"
>>>> ?Option ? ? ?"Standby" "0"
>>>> ?Option ? ? ?"Suspend" "0"
>>>> ?Option ? ? ?"OffTime" "0"
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, this is not doing the trick - it is still in a
>>>> screen-blanked state when I return to it later. ?(Yes, I restarted X,
>>>> but good idea.)
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know where else this might be set? ?(Debian testing is the
>>>> distro.) ?Thanks.
>
>>Doesn't the kernel take care of APM settings, is it not compiled in
>>and managed through your system settings as already mentioned?
>
> APM has gone by the wayside some time ago for most things. ?As for
> "system settings", those only apply if you are running a desktop
> environment like KDE, Gnome or XFCE. ?I use a plain window manager
> (Openbox) and there aren't any settings. ?It looks like Lennart was on
> the right track by pointing out that I have 'Option "DPMS"' in my
> xorg.conf - once I set that to 'Option "DPMS" "FALSE"' and restart X, I
> seem to be in the clear.
>
> The way to test is to mess with my system clock, setting it forward a
> couple of hours, and seeing if the screen goes black. ?I haven't done
> that yet, because the other running programs tend to get upset if you
> mess with the clock too often.
> --

As yes, I understand the question much better now, thanks!

> yours,
>
> William
>
>
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> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFKcfcmHQtmiuz+KT8RAmZKAJsFgdk0plB4N9LaFxwipkEFZaiHcACgsV/Z
> dMFOipWRCZ9MwLfbe3I9a+k=
> =F5mu
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>



-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 21:29:50 2009
From: devguy.ca-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Rajinder Yadav)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:29:50 -0400
Subject: CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301444160.3868-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090730141836.51034801.tleslie@tcn.net>
	 <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301444160.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <a05162a70907301429v15e4df47h7775df03b9c21d05@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:50 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier<hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> | From: ted leslie <tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org>
>
> | wow, i wonder if he took the money and ran?
> | this will really put a lot of distros under the microscope if it goes south.
> | distro's should have a trust set up for the funds, and proper procedure to spend them (not allowing a grab and run)
> | Shocking it happened to this distro.
>
> I'll be sad if CentOS folds. ?I use it.
>
> On the other hand, there are a lot of other distros around, and we do
> have the source code. ?That's probably enough security.
>
> Imagine if we used a single source OS and then the provider decided
> not to offer it any more. ?Like, say, Windows XP.
> --

Maybe he actually got hit by a bus crossing the street !!!

-- 
Kind Regards,
Rajinder Yadav
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 21:36:14 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:36:14 -0400
Subject: GamerRe:CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <20090730160004.c35300f7.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090730141836.51034801.tleslie@tcn.net> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301444160.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com> 
	<7c50d3570907301210v1b28f856xd21047aa9a9732d4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090730160004.c35300f7.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907301436w6c1fa505n73b724b483068c99@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 16:00, ted leslie<tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> i have always found this odd,
> i am a "Gamer", more so in the past.
> I always buy the consoles, i.e. have XBOX360, PS3, nintendo-GC,
> (will get wii eventually),
> and i thought when i got the XBOX (used), do i want to buy something from Bill,
> but really, if you buy/play 20 games a year for it, your dropping, a G$ for games on a console,
> (and maybe 2-3G$ in total across a few of them)
> to the game companies, granted MS gets some for Halo, etc,
> but i figured it wasn't a boycott I would do, because it really hurts the game companies
> (and me) if I do not get it (i.e. a xbox).
> Having said that, I keep looking at the "windows" games in the stores, thinking if anything
> good really comes out, i would maybe have to set up a MS box, aside from a business needed
> vmware installed XP. but, and this is only a personal observation,
> if its worth playing (except for some back ally x-rated stuff), its usually on the consoles,
> and sometimes, only on the consoles, and sometimes, only exclusively on one console.
>
> I just have never understood why people say Windows is needed for the games,
> I have yet to see it needed for even one game yet.
>
> of course if you are obtaining your software games (to load onto Windows)
> at a very large discount, even a 100% discount :) ya then I guess that makes sence.
>
> -tl


I don't own any of the consoles, the computer that I built cost me
$5200 -- it's a Ci7 EE build -- and I only buy a few games: RPGs, RTS,
FPS/TPS, MMOs (and also play the F2P MMOs as well), and some games I
get through other means, just like certain esoteric movies from the
past, got to love cinemageddon.  So, yes, I am a Gamer, but not a
console Gamer, although I do plan on buying a console again, I just
don't see the need yet.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists




From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 21:47:05 2009
From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:47:05 -0400
Subject: GamerRe:CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907301436w6c1fa505n73b724b483068c99-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com> 	<20090730141836.51034801.tleslie@tcn.net> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301444160.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com> 	<7c50d3570907301210v1b28f856xd21047aa9a9732d4@mail.gmail.com> 	<20090730160004.c35300f7.tleslie@tcn.net> <7c50d3570907301436w6c1fa505n73b724b483068c99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A7214D9.3050604@dinamis.com>

On 30/07/09 05:36 PM, Michael Lauzon wrote:
> I don't own any of the consoles, the computer that I built cost me
> $5200 -- it's a Ci7 EE build 

... thus confirming my suspicion that PC gamers are completely nuts. :)
-- 
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada  M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
+1 416-410-3326
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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 21:59:13 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:59:13 -0400
Subject: GamerRe:CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <4A7214D9.3050604-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090730141836.51034801.tleslie@tcn.net> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907301444160.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com> 
	<7c50d3570907301210v1b28f856xd21047aa9a9732d4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090730160004.c35300f7.tleslie@tcn.net> <7c50d3570907301436w6c1fa505n73b724b483068c99@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A7214D9.3050604@dinamis.com>
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907301459g7f4e3332g5093ebca8d0832f9@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 17:47, CLIFFORD ILKAY<clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 30/07/09 05:36 PM, Michael Lauzon wrote:
>> I don't own any of the consoles, the computer that I built cost me
>> $5200 -- it's a Ci7 EE build
>
> ... thus confirming my suspicion that PC gamers are completely nuts. :)
> --
> Regards,
>
> Clifford Ilkay

:p


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 22:12:08 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:12:08 -0400
Subject: CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907301512p62a7f171r7046b5ec11cec6b3@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Michael Lauzon<mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Lance Davis, the main project administrator for CentOS, a popular free
> 'rebuild' of Red Hat's Enterprise Linux, appears to have gone AWOL. In
> an open letter* from his fellow CentOS developers, they describe the
> precarious situation the project has been put in. There have been
> attempts to contact him for some time now, as he's the sole
> administrator for the centos.org domain, the IRC channels, and
> apparently, CentOS funds. One can only hope that Lance gets in contact
> with them and gets things sorted out.

Ouch.

For any project of any kind of importance, it is pretty essential to
have some "continuity contingencies."

It's a lot like having a will...  You don't particularly want to *use*
it, but it's mighty risky to be without some modicum of planning to
deal with "unfortunate possibilities."

Particularly notably...  A lot of folks have been using CentOS as a
"cheap RHAT alternative," on the basis that it was readily available,
largely identical, and you weren't tied to RHAT.

Unfortunately, what is evident is that quite a bit of infrastructure
of the project was invisibly-but-vitally tied to Lance Davis.

I don't have any reason to think he's a bad guy in any fashion, but
his being so inextricably tied in has the regrettable potential to be
a fatal problem for the project :-(.
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Joan Crawford  - "I, Joan Crawford, I believe in the dollar.
Everything I earn, I spend." -
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/joan_crawford.html
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From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org  Thu Jul 30 23:57:38 2009
From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (meng)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:57:38 -0400
Subject: ntfs-3g vs. ext2ifs
Message-ID: <4ff5de220239a9f9229f3c1a1bce368a@teksavvy.com>

I want to thank all who contributed to the above discussion.
It has opened my mind to the possibilities and challenges and helped me think this through.

It also gives me new respect to the issue of archives.
I wonder if technical issues have any bearing on the current EHealth Ontario issue.

Thanks again.

Meng

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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 02:48:24 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:48:24 -0400
Subject: LDAP and passwords
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907301217p784629bbs30814cb2556aaf3f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A71BBA4.2010907@moores.ca> <b8f780870907301217p784629bbs30814cb2556aaf3f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A725B78.1000301@moores.ca>



William Muriithi wrote:
> 
> Do you mind describing your setup a little?  Use evolutions as an
> example and take us through the authentication process.
> 
> 


Sure. Although I think I've decided I can address one of the issues in
evolution by using Maildir for email instead of imap.

My network uses LDAP and PAM for user login. As well all my servers use
it too, so that the password you use to login to the network will always
be the same as the password you use to retrieve your imap email, send
your smtp email, access your ldap contact list etc... And when you
change your password, via the gui in gnome or calling passwd on the cli,
 the password will change for all these other services at the same time.

The problem comes down to the various clients that then have to access
these services. Such as evolution or thunderbird for imap, smtp and
contact lists.

After you change your password, the next time you run evolution, it will
prompt you for your password so you can access your imap email. When you
access your contact list, it will prompt you for your password again.
When you go to send your email via smtp, you will again be prompted to
enter the exact same password. Evolution stores this passwords locally
so that you don't have to enter it again until the next time you change
it, but none the less, if you change your password, you will then be
prompted many times by various clients to reenter it.

There should be some way to either get all the clients to access a
single local cache for the password (something like KDE wallet perhaps)
or make the password change utility update the various local client
configurations immediately.

Is this a problem any of those other unmentionable operating systems
have or not.

Chris Browne, said in another post that Apple has this worked out. I'm
surprised we don't have anything in the Linux world yet.


cheers,
darryl
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From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 02:46:54 2009
From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:46:54 -0400
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0907300852uc97da83he358b3f4b1eb066f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>
	 <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20090730142047.GQ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
	 <1f13df280907300813t29ae8b8dx6ac194be58b6365a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <3a97ef0907300852uc97da83he358b3f4b1eb066f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f13df280907301946x309c0d3ara1c7052262484c10@mail.gmail.com>

2009/7/30 Tyler Aviss <tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>:
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Giles Orr<gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> 2009/7/30 Lennart Sorensen <lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org>:
>>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 05:46:09PM -0400, Tyler Aviss wrote:
>>>> This might seem like a dump answer,but what about inserting sleep
>>>> commands into the script, etc?
>>>
>>> That doesn't actually give any idea how long the script code takes to run.
>>> The idea probably isn't to make it delay a lot, but to actually see how
>>> much time the script is actually using. ?It can be hard to compare the
>>> efficiency of two pieces of script code if you machine is so fast that you
>>> can't tell. ?On a slower machine you could tell which is more efficient.
>>
>> This is what I'm after. ?I would prefer to do this on my current
>> desktop just for convenience, but nothing has come up that sounded
>> like it fits so far. ?Weird that no one wants to slow their computer
>> down, I mean what's up with that?
>>
>> It occurs to me that I have a 1200MHz Celeron with an Asus motherboard
>> and what appeared to be a highly adjustable BIOS: I can probably get
>> it to run at 200MHz(?) and that might do the trick.
>>
> Can you get it down that low, or is that just the clock multiplier?

As it turns out, I can't slow it past 800MHz - but with the memory
running slow, it being a Celeron, and "time" working in the single
digit millisecond range, I'm getting repeatable, usable numbers.

For those who are interested, William Park's wonderful take on how to
sum the sizes of files in the local directory:

echo $(($(find -maxdepth 1 -mindepth 1 -type f -printf '%k+' ; echo 0)))KiB

is the winner, running faster than the other implementations we were
tossing about in another thread.

So I've found a decent solution to the main problem - slowing things
down - and I'm happy about that.  Thanks!

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 03:40:48 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 23:40:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <1f13df280907301946x309c0d3ara1c7052262484c10-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>  <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd@mail.gmail.com>  <20090730142047.GQ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>  <1f13df280907300813t29ae8b8dx6ac194be58b6365a@mail.gmail.com> 
 <3a97ef0907300852uc97da83he358b3f4b1eb066f@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280907301946x309c0d3ara1c7052262484c10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907302332120.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>

| From: Giles Orr <gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>

| echo $(($(find -maxdepth 1 -mindepth 1 -type f -printf '%k+' ; echo 0)))KiB

I was wondering what would happen if the size got to be "too big".
The world has a habit of not planning for growth.

It appears as if BASH uses 64-bit evaluation, so there appears to be
no immediate danger.

Too bad that BASH silently accepts overflow of these fixed-width
integers.  A further problem is the manual makes no promise concerning
the width of these intermediate results.

Using a pipe to bc or dc has a couple of advantages:

- there surely would not be a size limit, even in the future

- a pipe is unbounded but a command line probably is not.  This
  matters if there are a *lot* of files.
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From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 03:48:07 2009
From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 23:48:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Slowing Linux to a crawl
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907302332120.3868-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <1f13df280907281857n470b2ce0t236c5a2f4ca9456@mail.gmail.com>  <3a97ef0907291446u740e86dbi47f36a922060afdd@mail.gmail.com>  <20090730142047.GQ2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>  <1f13df280907300813t29ae8b8dx6ac194be58b6365a@mail.gmail.com> 
 <3a97ef0907300852uc97da83he358b3f4b1eb066f@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280907301946x309c0d3ara1c7052262484c10@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907302332120.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LMD.2.00.0907302345380.5691@doublethink>

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

> | From: Giles Orr <gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org>
> 
> | echo $(($(find -maxdepth 1 -mindepth 1 -type f -printf '%k+' ; echo 0)))KiB
> 
> I was wondering what would happen if the size got to be "too big".
> The world has a habit of not planning for growth.
> 
> It appears as if BASH uses 64-bit evaluation, so there appears to be
> no immediate danger.
> 
> Too bad that BASH silently accepts overflow of these fixed-width
> integers.  A further problem is the manual makes no promise concerning
> the width of these intermediate results.
> 
> Using a pipe to bc or dc has a couple of advantages:
> 
> - there surely would not be a size limit, even in the future
> 
> - a pipe is unbounded but a command line probably is not.  This
>   matters if there are a *lot* of files.

    When using commands internal to the shell, the command line is
    limited only by available memory.


-- 
   Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster         <http://woodbine-gerrard.com>
   ===================================================================
   Author:
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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From mlists-qPBrPDIhiSIW5WPm/PVmQw at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 07:31:34 2009
From: mlists-qPBrPDIhiSIW5WPm/PVmQw at public.gmane.org (Brandon Sandrowicz)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:31:34 -0700
Subject: UTF8 encoding & Bash
In-Reply-To: <20090730141805.GO2989-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A70FC05.10906@alteeve.com> <20090730141805.GO2989@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20090731073134.GA18880@precious>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:18:05AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 09:48:53PM -0400, Madison Kelly wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> >   I've got a problem that I *thought* was perl, but turns out to be more 
> > fundamental. I switched to bash and the problem remains...
> >
> >   There is a program called 'fantasdic' which takes a Japanese character 
> > and returns information on it. When it outputs to STDOUT it's fine, but 
> > when the output is redirected to a file, 0 bytes are written. This only 
> > happens with certain characters, no less.
> >
> >   For example;
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------
> > #!/bin/bash
> >
> > echo "### Start ? ###"
> > /usr/bin/fantasdic -o Japanese ?
> >
> > echo "### Start ? ###"
> > /usr/bin/fantasdic -o Japanese ?
> > -----------------------------------------------
> >
> >   Run this (as a script or as individual commands) and the output is  
> > clearly there and complete.
> >
> >   However, if you redirect the output to a file, the first character  
> > will write out to the file where the second one will not. Actually, most  
> > of the output from the first character will write... it seems to  
> > double-encode at one point and bail, but I digress as I suspect solving  
> > the second command's problem will solve the first. :)
> >
> >   Any idea what's going on here?
> 
> The program stupidly requries access to X to run.   If it has a command
> line interface i addition to the X one, it should at least run without
> access to X when used on the command line.
> 
> Seems someone wrote that without realizing what libs they were pulling in.

Seems more like this is made to be a GTK+ app. It's host on GNOME:

    http://projects.gnome.org/fantasdic/

The console output is probably an afterthought. It's supposed to support
Win32 and there is code in there to determine if there is a Win32
console too... but the STDOUT sections all specify '\n' for linebreaks
in places instead of using '\n' for unix and '\r\n' for a Windows
console.

Also, once I installed it from SVN it would immediately crash with
backtraces (when using the '-o' stdout option). Apparently, it's setup
by default to look for dictionary files for things like English and
Japanese... only it doesn't define any default files, causing the thing
to crash. Even the GUI crashes if you try to search before fooling
around in the preferences. I had to switch it over to using DICT servers
and then it started working (because there are default URLS) There are a
lot of flakey parts of this software.

There site even says "Fantasdic comes with pre-configured dictionaries
but dictionaries can be changed or added in the settings at any time."
Heh. If you call pre-configured to look at a null filepath for
definitions 'pre-configured' then yeah, it is.
 
> It also generates ^M at the end of lines, which is not unix compatible.
> Except the last line which contains two pieces of non UTF8 garbage.
> Looks like a bug for sure.

That non UTF8 garbage might be from something else, see below.
 
> Of course it may also be missing the output and not using it in the
> normal buffered way which might explain why the output is truncated.
> 
> Even running just the first fantasdic command gets truncated, never mind
> the rest.  Seems like it is just in general a very buggy program.
> It clearly doesn't use normal buffered output, nor does it seem to
> understand proper line endings.
> 

The no output to file
---------------------

 * If I replace all of the 'puts' calls with '$stderr.puts' in
   'command_line.rb' then run:

    fantasdic -o Japanese ? 2> tmp

   It works.

 * Seems that it _is_ just a buffering problem. In fantasdic.rb replace:

        define(ARGV[0], ARGV[1])

   With this:

        define(ARGV[0], ARGV[1])
        $stdout.flush

    Seems to work now. You could also do:

        $stdout.sync = true
        define(ARGV[0], ARGV[1])

    instead.


The '\r' issue
--------------

 * Looks like the carriage returns are coming from the definition
   source. I didn't delve too far into the code the pings the DICT
   server, though. The definitions are just printed out wholesale in the
   format that they were fetched, is the way it seems.

 * If you replace this line:
        
        puts d.body;

   with this line:

        puts d.body.gsub(/\r\n?/, "\n")

   This will strip out any carriage returns that are part of a Windows
   'newline'.

 * My suspicion is that either the DICT server is returning the
   definition with the '\r\n' in there (most likely) or the '\r\n' are
   part of the DICT protocol (IIRC, some protocols use '\r\n', NNTP
   comes to mind, but I was reading a C# implementation of it) and the
   author of fantasdic doesn't realize that they need to be stripped
   out.

 
Note: I'm operating off of the SVN version here so there aren't any
upstream changes that I'm missing. Though there might be some
differences between what I'm seeing and what's in a package management
system (apt,yum,etc).

The 'non UTF8' Garbage
----------------------

 * It's probably from the DICT server output. The last thing that is
   prints to STDOUT is a 'puts d.body' call. See the '\r' issue.

-- 
Brandon Sandrowicz

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From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 14:43:57 2009
From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:43:57 -0400
Subject: Fedora and cpu usage
Message-ID: <200907311043.58874.icanprogram@295.ca>

I'm running stock Fedora 10 along with an A-D card which is interrupt driven.     
The card is configured so that the interrupts are occurring every 8msec as 
determined by an external clock.

Here is a snip from some tracing info written to a file:

=========== begin snip =========
delta_usec[1719] = 8346 toTrigger =78 toFileMgr=348
delta_usec[1720] = 8324 toTrigger =59 toFileMgr=314
delta_usec[1721] = 8323 toTrigger =42 toFileMgr=296
delta_usec[1724] = 24991 toTrigger =891 toFileMgr=1125
delta_usec[1724] = 0 toTrigger =6042 toFileMgr=6318
delta_usec[1724] = 0 toTrigger =7328 toFileMgr=7715
delta_usec[1725] = 8470 toTrigger =1691 toFileMgr=1916
delta_usec[1726] = 8218 toTrigger =55 toFileMgr=305
delta_usec[1727] = 8354 toTrigger =44 toFileMgr=299
=========== end snip ============

The first delta_usec refers to the inter interrupt spacing.   The item in the 
[] is the interrupt sequence number.   The toTrigger and toFileMgr refer to 
timing points further into the multiple process application.

The question is what could have happened to the Linux system (otherwise not 
used for any other purpose than this test) in and around seq number 1721.   
The interrupts 1722 and 1723 still happened otherwise the sequence number 
would not have incremented to 1724.   The repeated 1724 is a result of an 
overwrite on some global variables.   In reality they are the triggers for 
1722 and 1723.   Similarly the 0 is an artifact because our trace timing 
variable also was overwritten.    The 24991 usec lag is real and is about 
right for those extra clock ticks ... although there is no real way to know 
if they happened at 8msec intervals.   

What appears to have happened is all was ticking along smoothly with the Linux 
kernel servicing the interrupt every 8msec or so and handing it off to the 
application, who then handled things within 300usec or so.    All of sudden, 
with the kernel still handling the interrupts on time,  the rest of the Linux 
system became very busy for over 25msec.

This is Fedora 10 running on a 1GHz processor.    The Linux box is on a 
dedicated network with one other node and is otherwise not running any other 
applications other than KDE while this test is performed.

Any thoughts on what could be causing this?    Is it something to do with the 
file system writing that trace file?     There doesn't appear to be any 
correlation to these outliers and the scheduled cron jobs like log rotate.

I'm trying to avoid the complication of adding the RTAI real time Linux patch.

Thanks in advance.

bob


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From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 14:57:54 2009
From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:57:54 -0400
Subject: UPDATE: CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
Message-ID: <7c50d3570907310757j1daf183agbe307da15b78aca3@mail.gmail.com>

The following is now posted on the CentOS.org site:

"Facts Regarding CentOS and the Open Letter to Lance Davis":

* CentOS is not dead or going away. The signers of the Open Letter are
fully committed to continue the CentOS Project. Updates and new
releases will continue.

* The issues raised in the Open Letter have been raised privately
literally for years and a voluntary resolution had been hoped for and
worked toward. But progress requires follow through. We have tried
contacting Lance in private for a long period of time before this Open
Letter. While we received promises, there was no real response or
follow through from him on promises made. We are sure he is not dead,
on vacation, or sick. Once we all decided there was no movement in the
matter we created the Open Letter. This is not something that appeared
just recently.

* We would really like to continue the project using the centos.org
domain. That is one of the reasons for the Open Letter. But the
developers will move to another domain if there is no other option.
Protective backups are in place; hot machines exist to allow for a
cutover with a simple one time installation of one RPM package. We
continue to refine our plans if this might be the case, to make the
transition as smooth as possible.

* We thank the people who have stepped forward and want to donate to
the CentOS project to hold off for now until issues surrounding the
centos.org domain and donation policy are resolved. Selected donations
will be privately solicited by the signers of the Open Letter on some
transition matters. We will post general instructions on how you can
help the project as matters become resolved.

* The CentOS project is run completely by volunteers and we are aware
that this requires a different management style. We have been and
continue to work to prevent issues like these from occurring in the
future. We will continue this effort in the future, but the matters
mentioned in the Open Letter prevent us from moving forward at this
moment, as they need to be resolved first.


-- 
Sincerely,

Michael Lauzon
--
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 15:20:41 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:20:41 -0400
Subject: LDAP and passwords
In-Reply-To: <4A725B78.1000301-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A71BBA4.2010907@moores.ca>
	 <b8f780870907301217p784629bbs30814cb2556aaf3f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A725B78.1000301@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907310820w18a9e873xdc1e5b3b3a813f52@mail.gmail.com>

Darrly,

2009/7/30 Darryl Moore <darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org>

>
>
> William Muriithi wrote:
> >
> > Do you mind describing your setup a little?  Use evolutions as an
> > example and take us through the authentication process.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> There should be some way to either get all the clients to access a
> single local cache for the password (something like KDE wallet perhaps)
> or make the password change utility update the various local client
> configurations immediately.

Okay, l get it now. Unfortunately, I do not see any other solution short of
using kerberos.

I could be wrong here, but  Keychain, KDE wallet, v-GO SSO and others all
work by saving all those passwords under a master password. If however, any
of the passwords change in the back end, authentication fails and these
applications pops up ask for the master password and then force you to
change the problematic password. This is actually the position you are in
currently, only that you do not have one wrapper application for the whole
process.

>
>
> Is this a problem any of those other unmentionable operating systems
> have or not.
>

Actually, its not entirely an OS problem. I would call it an application
problem. The operating system never cache the password, you have to type it
fresh every time. Ok, Windows does allow that in some configuration, but
then that does not mean its prudent security wise

>
> Chris Browne, said in another post that Apple has this worked out. I'm
> surprised we don't have anything in the Linux world yet.
>
> Again, I have helped someone setup cyberduck on mac and we ended up using
keychain.  The process felt more like KDE wallet as keychain never requested
any information that would enable it co-ordinate with the ftp password
change. May be I am wrong here and its possible to use keychain in a more
complicated setup. May google on it someday, or hopefully someone here will
share the technical details of how it works.

Regards,

William

>
> cheers,
> darryl
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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From darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 15:26:11 2009
From: darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Darryl Moore)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:26:11 -0400
Subject: LDAP and passwords
In-Reply-To: <b8f780870907310820w18a9e873xdc1e5b3b3a813f52-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A71BBA4.2010907@moores.ca>	 <b8f780870907301217p784629bbs30814cb2556aaf3f@mail.gmail.com>	 <4A725B78.1000301@moores.ca> <b8f780870907310820w18a9e873xdc1e5b3b3a813f52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A730D13.3090807@moores.ca>



William Muriithi wrote:
> Darrly,
> 
> 2009/7/30 Darryl Moore <darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org <mailto:darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org>>
> 
> 
> 
>     William Muriithi wrote:
>     >
>     > Do you mind describing your setup a little?  Use evolutions as an
>     > example and take us through the authentication process.
>     >
>     >
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     There should be some way to either get all the clients to access a
>     single local cache for the password (something like KDE wallet perhaps)
>     or make the password change utility update the various local client
>     configurations immediately.
> 
> Okay, l get it now. Unfortunately, I do not see any other solution short
> of using kerberos.
> 

I can do this with kerberos? It had been my intention to learn more
about kerberos, figuring I would need to implement it at some point.
This may mean I dig into it sooner rather than later.

cheers,
darryl
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 15:53:42 2009
From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:53:42 -0400
Subject: LDAP and passwords
In-Reply-To: <4A730D13.3090807-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A71BBA4.2010907@moores.ca>
	 <b8f780870907301217p784629bbs30814cb2556aaf3f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A725B78.1000301@moores.ca>
	 <b8f780870907310820w18a9e873xdc1e5b3b3a813f52@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A730D13.3090807@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <d6d6637f0907310853l5bff8b56md884a76895ddf8a6@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Darryl Moore<darryl-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Okay, l get it now. Unfortunately, I do not see any other solution short
>> of using kerberos.
>
> I can do this with kerberos? It had been my intention to learn more
> about kerberos, figuring I would need to implement it at some point.
> This may mean I dig into it sooner rather than later.

I think that overstates it a bit...

Not so much "I can do this with Kerberos", but rather "this is the
sort of thing that would be *possible* with Kerberos."

Few enough applications have been "Kerberized" that it's not obvious
how usable this will necessarily be.

On the "good side"...
 - ssh supports Kerberos, which means that anything that uses ssh should too
 - popular IMAP servers such as UW-IMAP, Dovecot, Cyrus are able to
support Kerberos
- many services that support ssl/TLS authentication:

Some other servers that support Kerberos authentication:
CUPS
Some jabber servers such as jabberd2, ejabberd
PostgreSQL databases
SAMBA
Squid
Apache (via modauthkerb)

Client side:
fetchmail
mutt

You need to configure each such service to be Kerberos-aware, which
seems to be a somewhat nontrivial task...
-- 
http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
Ogden Nash  - "The trouble with a kitten is that when it grows up,
it's always a cat." -
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/o/ogden_nash.html
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 17:14:10 2009
From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:14:10 -0400
Subject: LDAP and passwords
In-Reply-To: <4A730D13.3090807-90a536wCiRb3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.org>
References: <4A71BBA4.2010907@moores.ca>
	 <b8f780870907301217p784629bbs30814cb2556aaf3f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A725B78.1000301@moores.ca>
	 <b8f780870907310820w18a9e873xdc1e5b3b3a813f52@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4A730D13.3090807@moores.ca>
Message-ID: <b8f780870907311014l737c333bk8f051b8ca7314177@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> I can do this with kerberos? It had been my intention to learn more
> about kerberos, figuring I would need to implement it at some point.
> This may mean I dig into it sooner rather than later.
>

Sure, however as Christopher has said, before going that way, make a list of
all the applications  you are using and see if most of them are capable of
speaking kerberos  natively or have a pam module to assist.

If a lot of the application are not capable, forget it. If most of your
applications are ready, then looks at what is involved to run kerberos
service. Do  you still think you stomach it?

Anyway, you have a decision to make here, all I can say is, should you
implement kerberos, have it running on a couple of servers for redundancy. A
single kerbero server can take your whole network down should it be
unavailable

>
> cheers,
> darryl
> --
> The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>

William
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From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 17:33:27 2009
From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:33:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL
In-Reply-To: <20090730141836.51034801.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>
References: <7c50d3570907301049l7fa63d90i61ff66d819a25662@mail.gmail.com> <20090730141836.51034801.tleslie@tcn.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907311327340.8748@castor.opentrend.net>

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, ted leslie wrote:

> wow, i wonder if he took the money and ran? this will really put a lot 
> of distros under the microscope if it goes south. distro's should have a 
> trust set up for the funds, and proper procedure to spend them (not 
> allowing a grab and run)

Which is preciely what Software in the Public Interest is for.  It will 
hold funds on behalf of projects, handle accounting and can act as a legal 
entity for the project.  This cuts down on the administrative overhead for 
projects and allows them to get on with developing their apps.

http://spi-inc.org/

Cheers,

Rob

-- 
I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy
Projected IPv4 exhaustion: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html
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From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 19:01:41 2009
From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:01:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FREE: ancient X Version 11r5 manuals
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907311500160.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>

I have a set of 11 volumes of X documentation published by O'Reilly in the
early 1990s.  This was the official documentation, and more.  In great
condition (i.e. I never got around to reading much of it).

I'm going to get rid of it.  Anyone interested?

Here's a page about the first volume
 http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781565920026/

The set occupies less than a metre of shelf space.

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From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org  Fri Jul 31 19:04:18 2009
From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:04:18 -0400
Subject: FREE: ancient X Version 11r5 manuals
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907311500160.3868-zb/h1I55lmemYXyjjU2hqtBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.00.0907311500160.3868@redclaw.mimosa.com>
Message-ID: <99a6c38f0907311204w2583d620p709325e42500a205@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:01 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier<hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I have a set of 11 volumes of X documentation published by O'Reilly in the
> early 1990s. ?This was the official documentation, and more. ?In great
> condition (i.e. I never got around to reading much of it).
>
> I'm going to get rid of it. ?Anyone interested?
>
> Here's a page about the first volume
> ?http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781565920026/
>
> The set occupies less than a metre of shelf space.

Please?!?  =D

-- 
  Scott Elcomb
  http://www.psema4.com/   @psema4
--
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