From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 00:22:00 2009 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:22:00 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <498267F8.8030102-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: > If I did, it was a typo. I've got a Linksys WRT54GL G router, but I > think I can get rid of that pretty easy so I didn't list it, but if > someone wants it, I've got it. oh !oh ! [waves arm in the air] pick ME ! pick ME ! ;-) djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 01:07:15 2009 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:07:15 -0500 Subject: OT: Rogers PVR: A Question...? In-Reply-To: <20090131171726.f1aa7179.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>; from tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org on Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 17:17:26 -0500 References: <7c50d3570901281828k32e8bbbcs3ace60f14da21e0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090128215558.08dd36f0.tleslie@tcn.net> <49819E61.3060809@rogers.com> <20090131113324.GA1948@localhost> <20090131171726.f1aa7179.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20090201010715.GB1427@localhost> On Sat Jan 31,2009 05:17:26 PM ted leslie wrote: > what is the confidence factor on this? See this thread on the Digital Home Canada forums: I took the less cluttered approach and upgraded the internal IDE drive (from 160G to 320G): You can also use switch the internal drive to a larger SATA drive with an adaptor: -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 02:30:07 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 21:30:07 -0500 Subject: Handling weird input devices In-Reply-To: <1f13df280901311508x168798f4w3d47f81e256092d9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280901311508x168798f4w3d47f81e256092d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/31/09, Giles Orr wrote: > The short version: I bought a Contour Shuttle Xpress > (http://www.contourdesign.com/shuttlepro/shuttlexpress.htm). I'd like > to get it working (ie. be able to map all the buttons and dials to > functions of my choosing) with Debian testing (amd64). Should I use > gizmod (which has never worked for me in the past) or the much more > ancient evrouter (which is much praised, but seems to have been > abandoned five years ago), or is there some other program or method > better suited to this? Question is, "Is this a an odd looking device that acts like something mundane like say a mouse?". I have a Silverstone LC-14 computer case that has a bunch of buttons on of the case front. Turns out the case looks to the motherboard like a standard USB keyboard. I've put notes on how to make the LC-14 case happy with the MythTV program here: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/SilverstoneTek_LC14 a tweaked .xmodmaprc file is almost all you need to make the LC14 happy. Is your device just as simple? > The long version: Many years ago I bought a Griffin Powermate > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin_powermate) - essentially a large > knob, looks like it's from an old stereo. Except that it attaches via > USB and glows blue. At the time, the best choice to get it working > with Linux was powermated > (http://sourceforge.net/projects/powermated/) which is a bit of a pig > to set up, but works. I adore the Powermate: when someone calls, I > don't have to find my music application (which desktop did I leave it > on?), I just poke the Powermate and it pauses (or restarts) the music. > powermated is now deprecated in favour of the more generic gizmod > (http://gizmod.sourceforge.net/) which - in theory - can work with the > Powermate and any specialty buttons on weird keyboards or devices. > I've spent perhaps six hours over several days fighting with gizmod > (most recently about a year ago) and I found that in debug mode it > would acknowledge any push or twist on the Powermate correctly, but > nothing I did with the config files would actually make them _do_ > anything. That sent me back to powermated, but obviously that's not > going to work quite as well with a new device. I've never tried > evrouter, and it seems unwise to start when it appears abandoned. But > I'm less than inspired by gizmod too. gizmod is available as a Debian > package, evrouter isn't. xev shows most of the buttons on the Xpress > do nothing at all by default, and those that do something are hard to > map because they're indistinguishable from mouse button clicks. > > Does anyone have experience with gizmod or the Shuttle Xpress under > Linux? Thanks. > > If I've failed to provide needed information, let me know. > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 02:47:44 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 21:47:44 -0500 Subject: Handling weird input devices In-Reply-To: References: <1f13df280901311508x168798f4w3d47f81e256092d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280901311847m3fcd8644g59982504ac7346c0@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/31 Colin McGregor : > On 1/31/09, Giles Orr wrote: >> The short version: I bought a Contour Shuttle Xpress >> (http://www.contourdesign.com/shuttlepro/shuttlexpress.htm). I'd like >> to get it working (ie. be able to map all the buttons and dials to >> functions of my choosing) with Debian testing (amd64). Should I use >> gizmod (which has never worked for me in the past) or the much more >> ancient evrouter (which is much praised, but seems to have been >> abandoned five years ago), or is there some other program or method >> better suited to this? > > Question is, "Is this a an odd looking device that acts like something > mundane like say a mouse?". I have a Silverstone LC-14 computer case > that has a bunch of buttons on of the case front. Turns out the case > looks to the motherboard like a standard USB keyboard. I've put notes > on how to make the LC-14 case happy with the MythTV program here: > > http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/SilverstoneTek_LC14 > > a tweaked .xmodmaprc file is almost all you need to make the LC14 > happy. Is your device just as simple? As I mentioned further on, the "xev" command doesn't even see most of the button presses on this device. And the events that xev can identify on the Xpress, it identifies as mouse clicks. I can't distinguish them from a mouse click, so I can't xmodmap them to another function. gizmod in debug mode does see distinctive clicks from the device, but gizmod and I aren't really on speaking terms: it's my last choice (I'm just hoping it's not my _only_ choice). >> The long version: Many years ago I bought a Griffin Powermate >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin_powermate) - essentially a large >> knob, looks like it's from an old stereo. Except that it attaches via >> USB and glows blue. At the time, the best choice to get it working >> with Linux was powermated >> (http://sourceforge.net/projects/powermated/) which is a bit of a pig >> to set up, but works. I adore the Powermate: when someone calls, I >> don't have to find my music application (which desktop did I leave it >> on?), I just poke the Powermate and it pauses (or restarts) the music. >> powermated is now deprecated in favour of the more generic gizmod >> (http://gizmod.sourceforge.net/) which - in theory - can work with the >> Powermate and any specialty buttons on weird keyboards or devices. >> I've spent perhaps six hours over several days fighting with gizmod >> (most recently about a year ago) and I found that in debug mode it >> would acknowledge any push or twist on the Powermate correctly, but >> nothing I did with the config files would actually make them _do_ >> anything. That sent me back to powermated, but obviously that's not >> going to work quite as well with a new device. I've never tried >> evrouter, and it seems unwise to start when it appears abandoned. But >> I'm less than inspired by gizmod too. gizmod is available as a Debian >> package, evrouter isn't. xev shows most of the buttons on the Xpress >> do nothing at all by default, and those that do something are hard to >> map because they're indistinguishable from mouse button clicks. >> >> Does anyone have experience with gizmod or the Shuttle Xpress under >> Linux? Thanks. >> >> If I've failed to provide needed information, let me know. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 05:07:19 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 00:07:19 -0500 Subject: OT: Rogers PVR: A Question...? In-Reply-To: <20090201010715.GB1427@localhost> References: <7c50d3570901281828k32e8bbbcs3ace60f14da21e0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090128215558.08dd36f0.tleslie@tcn.net> <49819E61.3060809@rogers.com> <20090131113324.GA1948@localhost> <20090131171726.f1aa7179.tleslie@tcn.net> <20090201010715.GB1427@localhost> Message-ID: <20090201000719.f35eae70.tleslie@tcn.net> ok, i have a 8300HD, and will give it go. now, if the stuff goes to the external, and i then remove it and plug it into a linux box, can I some how get the contents off it? or is it encrypted some how, and there is just no way? will it except a 1.5TB drive i wonder? -tl On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:07:15 -0500 Scott Allen wrote: > On Sat Jan 31,2009 05:17:26 PM ted leslie wrote: > > what is the confidence factor on this? > > See this thread on the Digital Home Canada forums: > > > I took the less cluttered approach and upgraded the internal IDE > drive (from 160G to 320G): > > > You can also use switch the internal drive to a larger SATA drive > with an adaptor: > > > > -- > ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** > ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 05:29:49 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 00:29:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Rogers PVR: A Question...? In-Reply-To: <20090201000719.f35eae70.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570901281828k32e8bbbcs3ace60f14da21e0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090128215558.08dd36f0.tleslie@tcn.net> <49819E61.3060809@rogers.com> <20090131113324.GA1948@localhost> <20090131171726.f1aa7179.tleslie@tcn.net> <20090201010715.GB1427@localhost> <20090201000719.f35eae70.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, ted leslie wrote: > ok, i have a 8300HD, and will give it go. > now, if the stuff goes to the external, > and i then remove it and plug it into a linux box, > can I some how get the contents off it? > or is it encrypted some how, and there is just no way? I've been doing some reading on this. I read on digitialhome.ca that the FS is encrypted and that the data is only visible on _that PVR_ let alone a Linux box. Apparently the filesystem may be proprietory anyway. > will it except a 1.5TB drive i wonder? Good question. It all depends on whether the hardware/firmware/etc can detect a HDD of that capacity, just like on a regular box. Since they are SATA I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try one if you had one available. I'm going to try adding at least 1TB externally. As an aside the thread below indicates that non-Rogers Set Top Boxes can't/won't be enabled on their network: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=35032 Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 06:10:29 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 06:10:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: David J Patrick writes: > pick ME ! pick ME ! I do not dare to ask why you would need it :) Speaking of which, has anyone here good/bad experiences with an ASUS WL-330 usb wifi access point ? I am interested (very) in Linux experiences with this device. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 06:37:44 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 01:37:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: TLUG meetings, topics and speakers Message-ID: <42723.74.14.17.200.1233470264.squirrel@webmail.weait.com> Hi all, As discussed at the January meeting Colin McGregor and I are now sharing the position of "TLUG talks organizer committee of putting things atop other things". It makes for a long business card. ;-) Our goals include, posting meeting topics well in advance of meetings, encouraging a diversity of presentation topics that appeal to attendees, encouraging a diversity of speakers to present their topics. You can reach us via talks [a] mcgregor.org and talks [a] weait.com. The schedule is currently clear for the rest of 2009. We'd like to fill it up a bit. Please email the talks committee with: a) Your topic suggestions. Have an idea for a presentation topic that you know people will come from miles around to see? Suggest that topic to us. b) Volunteer to speak. Have a topic idea, and you are willing to deliver the presentation to our attendees? Awesome! We'll be collecting these suggestions on an ongoing basis and scheduling meetings as best we can. Periodically, we may come to the list and ask for your thoughts on a topic; is so-and-so too commercial? And we may present a list of the suggested / requested topics to solicit for a presenter. In the short term, we need a presenter and topic for the March meeting and future meetings. At the January meeting I volunteered to present Introduction to OpenStreetMap on Tuesday 10 February 2009. I look forward to seeing all of you there. Best regards, Richard -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 07:48:40 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 02:48:40 -0500 Subject: KDE4, Newer ATI (fglrx) drivers Message-ID: <3a97ef0901312348l48f03133s23a2f7d39b12328@mail.gmail.com> Earlier on I had shared my dismay at how KDE4 ran on my system. Since switching to the beta of 4.2, I've noticed many of the small annoyances have been fixed up (there are some *new* issues as well, but I'm going to pin those on the fact things being beta). However, up until recently, graphics on my laptop's ATI card have still been somewhat of annoyance, especially when trying to run anything with video on an accelerated desktop. It seems that in the last few days ATI's release some newer drivers though (in addition to many other "friendly" steps like releasing open hardware specs etc). The 9.1 fglrx driver performs MUCH better than the previous ones, and a lot of the weird graphical glitches on Gnome/KDE have now vanished (gnome was also previously somewhat "flickery" with FMV) I remember being very leery of purchasing a machine with an ATI graphics chipset, but having seen some improvements since the AMD buyout I gave it a shot. I must say that thus far I've been extremely impressed with ATI's responsiveness in updating drivers, the overall improvements in performance/functionality with each release, and the way they seem to be working towards working more with the community in general. In many cases I've even had more luck with the ATI installed than the Nvidia one. For those who - like myself - had been rather anti-ATI in the past, you may want to give them chance again. Anyhow, just my 2c, but I thought I'd share in case anyone's considering a new rig and debating the graphics chipset, or had been having issues with the old 8.x or previous drivers. - TJA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 11:57:41 2009 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 06:57:41 -0500 Subject: OT: Rogers PVR: A Question...? In-Reply-To: <20090201000719.f35eae70.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org>; from tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org on Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 00:07:19 -0500 References: <7c50d3570901281828k32e8bbbcs3ace60f14da21e0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090128215558.08dd36f0.tleslie@tcn.net> <49819E61.3060809@rogers.com> <20090131113324.GA1948@localhost> <20090131171726.f1aa7179.tleslie@tcn.net> <20090201010715.GB1427@localhost> <20090201000719.f35eae70.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20090201115741.GD2021@localhost> On Sun Feb 01,2009 12:07:19 AM ted leslie wrote: > will it except a 1.5TB drive i wonder? If you had read through even just the first post of the thread that I gave a link to, you would have found: "Note that the largest external drive installed to date is now 1.5 TB (post 1586), but care needs to be taken to use the correct drive/enclosure combination." -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 12:58:44 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 07:58:44 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <49859C84.4010400@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > David J Patrick writes: > >> pick ME ! pick ME ! >> > > I do not dare to ask why you would need it :) Speaking of which, has anyone here > good/bad experiences with an ASUS WL-330 usb wifi access point ? I am interested > (very) in Linux experiences with this device. > > I have a WL-330gE portable access point and it works great. You can use it as an access point/router for WiFi devices and also in "hot spot" mode, where you can share a paid hot spot, such as in Starbucks. It can also work as a repeater for WiFi signals, to add WiFi support for ethernet only devices or as an ordinary access point to an ethernet network. It runs on Linux. As an experiment, I went to the library, with it, a ThinkPad, a Nokia N800 and an Asus EEE PC. All computers were running Linux. I then connected to the library's WiFi, using the ThinkPad via the Asus portable AP. Once I was logged in, I could then access the internet from the EEE PC & N800, as well as the ThinkPad via the AP. Normally, I have it configured as an access point, so that I can connect it to any ethernet network and give my N800 access to it. BTW, the USB port is used only for obtaining power from your computer. It does not carry data. The access point comes with an AC adapter, short ethernet cable and short USB cable that plugs into the same connector as the AC adaptor. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 14:49:42 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 09:49:42 -0500 Subject: OT: Rogers PVR: A Question...? In-Reply-To: <20090131113324.GA1948@localhost> References: <7c50d3570901281828k32e8bbbcs3ace60f14da21e0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090128215558.08dd36f0.tleslie@tcn.net> <49819E61.3060809@rogers.com> <20090131113324.GA1948@localhost> Message-ID: <20090201144942.GB19047@watson-wilson.ca> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 06:33:24AM -0500, Scott Allen wrote: > A Rogers SA8300HD PVR will autodetect and provision any drive that is > not formatted with its proprietary file system, when the drive is > attached for the first time. Does the none HD PVR do the same thing? -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 15:30:18 2009 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:30:18 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> Peter wrote: > David J Patrick writes: >> pick ME ! pick ME ! > > I do not dare to ask why you would need it :) Speaking of which, has anyone here > good/bad experiences with an ASUS WL-330 usb wifi access point ? I am interested > (very) in Linux experiences with this device. linuxcaffe's access points are working fine, but our central router gave up the ghost a while ago. Our principal packet re-director is a consumer-grade Belkin piece o junk, and I'm hoping to upgrade. I'm debating the use of an "appliance", like a WRT, vs. a "snottier" box, like P4, and a stack of NICs. As a result of a protracted seasonal slow-down + general economic slowdown, our purchasing power is.. uhhh limited, so I'm looking to replace the broken junk with working junk. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 15:53:36 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:53:36 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <4985C00A.1060609-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <4985C580.7050007@rogers.com> David J Patrick wrote: > Peter wrote: >> David J Patrick writes: >>> pick ME ! pick ME ! >> >> I do not dare to ask why you would need it :) Speaking of which, has >> anyone here >> good/bad experiences with an ASUS WL-330 usb wifi access point ? I am >> interested >> (very) in Linux experiences with this device. > linuxcaffe's access points are working fine, but our central router > gave up the ghost a while ago. Our principal packet re-director is a > consumer-grade Belkin piece o junk, and I'm hoping to upgrade. I'm > debating the use of an "appliance", like a WRT, vs. a "snottier" box, > like P4, and a stack of NICs. > > As a result of a protracted seasonal slow-down + general economic > slowdown, our purchasing power is.. uhhh limited, so I'm looking to > replace the broken junk with working junk. > My home firewall is a Linux box, with 3 NICs. The 3rd NIC is used for WiFi access, so that should anyone break the WPA2 encryption, they'll find themselves on the outside of my firewall, which is configured to allow only SSH (asymmetrical key only) and OpenVPN through. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 19:00:39 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 14:00:39 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <4984EB28.1050500-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <4985F157.9040406@alteeve.com> David J Patrick wrote: > Madison Kelly wrote: >> If I did, it was a typo. I've got a Linksys WRT54GL G router, but I >> think I can get rid of that pretty easy so I didn't list it, but if >> someone wants it, I've got it. > > oh !oh ! > [waves arm in the air] > pick ME ! pick ME ! > ;-) > djp Hi Dave, I'll try to stop by this week. If you get another one first, no worries, otherwise it's yours. Thanks! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 21:35:16 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 21:35:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: David J Patrick writes: > linuxcaffe's access points are working fine, but our central router gave > up the ghost a while ago. Our principal packet re-director is a > consumer-grade Belkin piece o junk, and I'm hoping to upgrade. I'm > debating the use of an "appliance", like a WRT, vs. a "snottier" box, > like P4, and a stack of NICs. Imnsho a P4 and a 'stack of NICs' will likely do better than any consumer grade box you can buy for money now. Otoh, if you would shop around for an older Cisco or other brand name business grade router, that would very likely fit the bill for the same money and work almost forever. A well used older model Cisco should be well under $100 and with some expert programming will very likely fulfill ALL your special packet routing needs, plus it's an all metal super rugged part that will last almost forever. $0.02 (cdn) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 1 22:12:34 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:12:34 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <49861E52.6070607@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > David J Patrick writes: > >> linuxcaffe's access points are working fine, but our central router gave >> up the ghost a while ago. Our principal packet re-director is a >> consumer-grade Belkin piece o junk, and I'm hoping to upgrade. I'm >> debating the use of an "appliance", like a WRT, vs. a "snottier" box, >> like P4, and a stack of NICs. >> > > Imnsho a P4 and a 'stack of NICs' will likely do better than any consumer grade > box you can buy for money now. Otoh, if you would shop around for an older Cisco > or other brand name business grade router, that would very likely fit the bill > for the same money and work almost forever. A well used older model Cisco should > be well under $100 and with some expert programming will very likely fulfill ALL > your special packet routing needs, plus it's an all metal super rugged part that > will last almost forever. > > Another brand of similar equipment is Adtran. I have a lot of experience with it and it works well. My firewall is a mini case Compaq with an 800+ MHz P3, running OpenSUSE 11.0. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 02:34:01 2009 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:34:01 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <4985F157.9040406-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985F157.9040406@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <49865B99.4060603@linuxcaffe.ca> Madison Kelly wrote: > David J Patrick wrote: >> Madison Kelly wrote: >>> If I did, it was a typo. I've got a Linksys WRT54GL G router, but I >>> think I can get rid of that pretty easy so I didn't list it, but if >>> someone wants it, I've got it. lovely ! thanks Madi, djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 02:40:06 2009 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:40:06 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <49865D06.1090206@linuxcaffe.ca> Peter wrote: > Imnsho a P4 and a 'stack of NICs' will likely do better than any consumer grade > box you can buy for money now. I'm getting that impression, especially if I want to implement any load-balanging, fail-over, QoS or especially a decent squid installation. Otoh, if you would shop around for an older Cisco > or other brand name business grade router, that would very likely fit the bill > for the same money and work almost forever. A well used older model Cisco should > be well under $100 and with some expert programming will very likely fulfill ALL > your special packet routing needs, plus it's an all metal super rugged part that > will last almost forever. I'll keep an eye out for such a unit, would you be that expert programmer ?? thanks for the $0.02, valued far higher on the geek exchange. ;-) djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 03:38:21 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 03:38:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: :) :) :) <- self explaining subject Message-ID: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/26480 Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 03:57:40 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 22:57:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: RMS at U of T Monday Message-ID: -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 04:10:57 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:10:57 -0500 Subject: Disabling favicon errors In-Reply-To: <20090131021034.GA4951-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <20090131021034.GA4951@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Hi, Thanks Ian and William. This helped. Funny how one can overlook simple elegant solution. My thought was for a script to clean out the log, but then, that would mean locking the file. Thank you and have a great week William 2009/1/30 William O'Higgins Witteman > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 05:48:27PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > > >Now, as far as I we are concerned this is just a nuisance. I have googled > about > >it, read apache manual for a while but I have not come across a way of > >disabling favicon related error without disabling all the other errors > message. > >Would any of us here have experience disabling apache error logs > selectively > >that he/she can share with the rest of tlug please? > > I take a different tack with this problem - I generate a favicon with > "touch" in each web root. Apache serves a 0 byte file pretty quickly, > there are no errors to log, and everybody is happy. If there is a > favicon in place it is unperturbed, but if it didn't exist it does now. > > Do this with cron or with your website creation script. > -- > > yours, > > William > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFJg7MaHQtmiuz+KT8RAjO/AKCScNGPXJd19MpnGawK5x2KE8PUVQCfbAny > lmr0pGOFZIsPidbKUfMDS7I= > =XU3T > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three. ?Alice Kahn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 12:18:58 2009 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 07:18:58 -0500 Subject: OT: Rogers PVR: A Question...? In-Reply-To: <20090201144942.GB19047-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org>; from tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org on Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 09:49:42 -0500 References: <7c50d3570901281828k32e8bbbcs3ace60f14da21e0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090128215558.08dd36f0.tleslie@tcn.net> <49819E61.3060809@rogers.com> <20090131113324.GA1948@localhost> <20090201144942.GB19047@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20090202121858.GA1960@localhost> On Sun Feb 01,2009 09:49:42 AM Neil Watson wrote: > Does the none HD PVR do the same thing? I can't remember anything I might have seen about increasing the storage on a Rogers SD (non-HD) PVR. Does it even have an eSATA port on the back? Putting a larger internal IDE drive into one might work. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 14:34:47 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:34:47 -0500 Subject: Wifi FYI In-Reply-To: <4984B6C7.6070107-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <4984B6C7.6070107@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20090202093447.87e5cced.hgibson@eol.ca> On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 15:38:31 -0500 Elliott Chapin wrote: > After a mess of Wifi setup problems with Ubuntu 8.10 - culminating in > additional network problems, I tried Fc10. Wifi setup was a cinch (via > h/w, s/w network menus). This on an Acer Aspire. Elliott, My Acer Aspire 3623's wireless did not work on FC6. It works fine now on FC9. I do not not much about Ubuntu, but maybe it is an older distribution. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 15:54:04 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:54:04 -0500 Subject: New Vantec Nexstar 3i In-Reply-To: <4983B131.9030306-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4983B131.9030306@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090202155404.GL26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 09:02:25PM -0500, Madison Kelly wrote: > I've been eye'ing the new Vantec Nexstar 3i SATA HDD chassis for the > last little bit, and was debating picking it up. I'd not seen any > mention of it being supported by Linux, so was a little worried. I'm > happy to say thought that, on initial testing, it works great. > > It's a bit different in that it's got a built-in processor that spins > the drive down after a period of inactivity, from "Idle", to "Stand by" > and finally "Power Down". It claims that the three states reduce power > draw from 100% when in "Active" state to 80/20/7% power use, respectively. > > I've tried accessing the drive when in full idle and it only took > about 5 seconds or so to be fully available again. Not too bad, I think. > > I like it, and thought others might, for use with backups. I run a > nightly rsync of my local machines and remote servers and it bothered me > that the normal USB carriers kept the HDD spinning the whole time. It > was a waste of hydro and needless wear on the drive. My experience is that drives last longer if you leave them spinning. Can't help with the wasted electricity part though. I have one 18GB quantum IDE drive that has about 80000 power on hours, and about 100 power cycles. The ball bearings are starting to sound a bit worn by now, but it still works. > So anyway, now you know it works, should any of you be curious to > check it out. Cost me $45 at Canada Computers. > > http://www.vantecusa.com/front/product/view_detail/292 > http://canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=019533&cid=516.700 -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 16:30:00 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:30:00 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <20090202162959.GM26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 06:10:29AM +0000, Peter wrote: > David J Patrick writes: > > pick ME ! pick ME ! > > I do not dare to ask why you would need it :) Speaking of which, has anyone here > good/bad experiences with an ASUS WL-330 usb wifi access point ? I am interested > (very) in Linux experiences with this device. I have an Asus WL500gp v1 that I like a lot. No idea what the 330 is like. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 16:33:33 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:33:33 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <20090202163333.GN26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 09:35:16PM +0000, Peter wrote: > Imnsho a P4 and a 'stack of NICs' will likely do better than any consumer grade > box you can buy for money now. Otoh, if you would shop around for an older Cisco > or other brand name business grade router, that would very likely fit the bill > for the same money and work almost forever. A well used older model Cisco should > be well under $100 and with some expert programming will very likely fulfill ALL > your special packet routing needs, plus it's an all metal super rugged part that > will last almost forever. Cisco's are rugged? Since when? They generate heat like crazy, and hate anything outside cool room temperature. And getting firmware updates to fix security problems is nearly imposible unless you pay for a support contract. Of course a P4 runs hot too, so it's probably no better. An athlon or P3 or something would be a lot nicer. -- Len Sorense -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 16:36:54 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:36:54 -0500 Subject: KDE4, Newer ATI (fglrx) drivers In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0901312348l48f03133s23a2f7d39b12328-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0901312348l48f03133s23a2f7d39b12328@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090202163654.GO26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 02:48:40AM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Earlier on I had shared my dismay at how KDE4 ran on my system. > Since switching to the beta of 4.2, I've noticed many of the small > annoyances have been fixed up (there are some *new* issues as well, > but I'm going to pin those on the fact things being beta). > > However, up until recently, graphics on my laptop's ATI card have > still been somewhat of annoyance, especially when trying to run > anything with video on an accelerated desktop. It seems that in the > last few days ATI's release some newer drivers though (in addition to > many other "friendly" steps like releasing open hardware specs etc). > The 9.1 fglrx driver performs MUCH better than the previous ones, and > a lot of the weird graphical glitches on Gnome/KDE have now vanished > (gnome was also previously somewhat "flickery" with FMV) > > I remember being very leery of purchasing a machine with an ATI > graphics chipset, but having seen some improvements since the AMD > buyout I gave it a shot. I must say that thus far I've been extremely > impressed with ATI's responsiveness in updating drivers, the overall > improvements in performance/functionality with each release, and the > way they seem to be working towards working more with the community in > general. In many cases I've even had more luck with the ATI installed > than the Nvidia one. > > For those who - like myself - had been rather anti-ATI in the past, > you may want to give them chance again. ATI isn't getting another chance from me until the day there is a working open source 3D driver that really works. Their drivers are still far behind nvidia's in quality. Their past driver history and my personal experience with customer support from them is not something I will overlook even if they managed to somehow make one working driver release. > Anyhow, just my 2c, but I thought I'd share in case anyone's > considering a new rig and debating the graphics chipset, or had been > having issues with the old 8.x or previous drivers. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 17:04:17 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:04:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090202162959.GM26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Lennart Sorensen writes: > I have an Asus WL500gp v1 that I like a lot. No idea what the 330 > is like. Thanks to all for answering. The WL-330 is a tiny (2oz) external box that connects to laptop (or not) USB (for power) and RJ45 (ethernet) and can be configured as a standalone access point, normal wifi receiver, or signal booster (range booster). It needs zero configuration since it looks like a router to the laptop, so all 'auto connect' schemes will work great. Minus: no WPA support, WEP or open config will have to be enough. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 17:21:33 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:21:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> <49865D06.1090206@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: David J Patrick writes: > > Imnsho a P4 and a 'stack of NICs' will likely do better than ... > I'm getting that impression, especially if I want to implement any > load-balanging, fail-over, QoS or especially a decent squid installation. Stop right there. Squid won't work well in a Linksys WRT54GL because it has too little RAM and no disk. Squid needs a few 100's of MB of disk to be noticeably good, and the more, the better. > Otoh, if you would shop around for an older Cisco > I'll keep an eye out for such a unit, would you be that expert programmer ?? It does not have to be Cisco. Can be Catalyst and many others (see the list of firms that went bust when the dot com fallout started). My experience with Cisco router programming is limited, but there are other experts out there, it is not o hard. However, neither of these boxes will help with squid or any other similar proxy. They will help with the QoS part (which is harder to do in Linux). Imho the most stable 'small router' boxes made so far are FreeBSD based (esp m0n0wall and pfsense). See: http://www.freebsdnews.net/systems/ Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 18:45:55 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:45:55 -0500 Subject: laptop suggestions? Message-ID: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c@webmail.utoronto.ca> hey folks, somehting's just killed the second hard drive in a row on my dell latitude d820 -- i suspect either the constant overheating or a bug with hard drive controllers in ubuntu 8.04/8.10 -- and i'm htinking it might be worht just buying a new laptop instead of going through the same drive nightmare another time. has anyone bought a reasonably proced, dual-core laptop with a half-decent battery life lately? I guess my preference would be for an asus or something without windows, but if i have to pay the windows tax i will. anyway: any suggestions? i'm headed down to the states next week and thought i might pick up something cheap. thanks! matt -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 19:07:21 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:07:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: US Passport RFID read, cloned at 30ft w. $250 quipment Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/02/low_cost_rfid_cloner/ P. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 19:11:15 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:11:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <20090130214017.GK26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Is there a list of wifi hardware that works in access point mode with linux ? (internal or external usb, pci and mini-pci (laptop) cards). The ASUS WL-330 device is the only 'always works' option for this so far, afaik. Please set me right ? tia, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 19:34:12 2009 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:34:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptop suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <612907.32681.qm@web51802.mail.re2.yahoo.com> You might want to consider Lenovo laptops. I have a 15" Lenovo Thinkpad T61 that's very good except for it's battery life... the 15" WSXGA screen and the NVidia card seem to be big battery hogs though. And the 9-cell lenovo battery for my T61 wasn't cheap (CDN$175). I have a feeling you're averse to Dell Latitude laptops, otherwise I'd recommend a new-ish Latitude D830. They are standard issue in our company and my entire team has been using fairly well-specced D830s without any problems. Compared to my personal Lenovo T61 I find my office Latitude D830 to be better built with an excellent display (15" UXGA) and amazing battery life. Salman Ahmed -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 19:28:12 2009 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:28:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66547.88173.qm@web51811.mail.re2.yahoo.com> You can check the Madwifi HW compat list to get some ideas: http://madwifi-project.org/wiki/Compatibility I used the above list to find a TrendNet 802.11g PCI wireless NIC and turn an old PC into a bridging wireless AP. Salman Ahmed --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Peter wrote: > From: Peter > Subject: [TLUG]: Re:OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 2:11 PM > > > Is there a list of wifi hardware that works in access point > mode with linux ? > (internal or external usb, pci and mini-pci (laptop) > cards). The ASUS WL-330 > device is the only 'always works' option for this > so far, afaik. Please set me > right ? > > tia, > Peter > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 19:38:29 2009 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:38:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware Message-ID: <557329.68761.qm@web51812.mail.re2.yahoo.com> You can check the Madwifi HW compat list to get some ideas: http://madwifi-project.org/wiki/Compatibility I have an old PC with a TrendNet 802.11g PCI wireless NIC running Debian Lenny, MadWifi, and hostapd configured as a bridging wireless AP. Salman Ahmed --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Peter wrote: > From: Peter > Subject: [TLUG]: Re:OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 2:11 PM > > > Is there a list of wifi hardware that works in access point > mode with linux ? > (internal or external usb, pci and mini-pci (laptop) > cards). The ASUS WL-330 > device is the only 'always works' option for this > so far, afaik. Please set me > right ? > > tia, > Peter > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 19:50:17 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 14:50:17 -0500 Subject: laptop suggestions? In-Reply-To: <612907.32681.qm-1HoIwBZJ7NaB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c@webmail.utoronto.ca> <612907.32681.qm@web51802.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902021150kfbb7c29w57c98df9e6c79848@mail.gmail.com> In general I've had good luck with HP Pavillions, but my more recent acquisition (tx2500ca) is still going through "growing pains". Turion X2 Ultra CPU: Powerful, but can get a little "toasty" on the lap Mobility Radeon HD 3200 IGP graphics (working quite nicely with newest FGLRX drivers) 12" reversible-tablet screen /w touchscreen and digitizer pen (update wacom drivers to use pen) Intel HD audio (output is good, mic in seems to not be working) Good battery life: (1.5h of doing 3d stuff /w Blender used maybe 25-30%) Expresscard slot (PCMCIA successor, haven't tested) Gigabit ethernet: native support 802.11n Wireless: (driver issues in current kernels. B43 project expects to be addressing N cards hopefully sometime in the not-too-far-future) 320GB HDD 4GB RAM Cardreader: native supoprt Bluetooth: native support tabletpcreview has a page on it here: http://www.tabletpcreview.com/default.asp?newsID=1217 On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Salman Ahmed wrote: > You might want to consider Lenovo laptops. I have a 15" Lenovo Thinkpad T61 that's very good except for it's battery life... the 15" WSXGA screen and the NVidia card seem to be big battery hogs though. And the 9-cell lenovo battery for my T61 wasn't cheap (CDN$175). > > I have a feeling you're averse to Dell Latitude laptops, otherwise I'd recommend a new-ish Latitude D830. They are standard issue in our company and my entire team has been using fairly well-specced D830s without any problems. Compared to my personal Lenovo T61 I find my office Latitude D830 to be better built with an excellent display (15" UXGA) and amazing battery life. > > > > Salman Ahmed > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 20:20:22 2009 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:20:22 -0500 Subject: laptop suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c-2RFepEojUI0fbXvGcxQkLSwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <49875586.3080102@rogers.com> matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > hey folks, > > somehting's just killed the second hard drive in a row on my dell > latitude d820 -- i suspect either the constant overheating or a bug > with hard drive controllers in ubuntu 8.04/8.10 -- and i'm htinking it > might be worht just buying a new laptop instead of going through the > same drive nightmare another time. has anyone bought a reasonably > proced, dual-core laptop with a half-decent battery life lately? I > guess my preference would be for an asus or something without windows, > but if i have to pay the windows tax i will. anyway: any > suggestions? i'm headed down to the states next week and thought i > might pick up something cheap. thanks! > I suggest checking out MSI laptops. No MS tax. Mine is a year old, so I can't offer current info. I recommend http://www.cnpcanada.com/ Call Steven and let him know what you are looking for. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 21:33:32 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 16:33:32 -0500 Subject: laptop suggestions? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902021150kfbb7c29w57c98df9e6c79848-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c@webmail.utoronto.ca> <612907.32681.qm@web51802.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3a97ef0902021150kfbb7c29w57c98df9e6c79848@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090202163332.4be676d9.tleslie@tcn.net> i got this one too, the price was too good to pass up (from the source), anyways i installed ubuntu ibex on it, but the tablet computing (and handwirtting recognition) didnt seem to be there, i like using it right now with vista and visio (well just for visio), and vista has pretty decent tablet computing setup, i'd like to run ubunutu on it more often, but from what i see the state of tablet computing on linux seems to be well behind MS vista. anyways for now, i have to use it for visio, but be nice to have a linux distro making use of the wacom tablet/pen,etc. its a little toasty, but when you use the tablet mode, you can rotate the screen, and i rotate it so its in portrait mode with the cpu/fan at top away from me, this seems to work well. I am not so much have issue with the heat, as with the high pitched (but low volume luckly) fan whine :( the display also isnt the best when viewed at angle, but then this isnt advised because the alignment of the pen doesnt work on angle anyways. i am not getting the battery life your getting, maybe linux is better a power management on it? (but that would be contrarty to what i've been reading) having a tablet is amazing, for me anyways, i am in front of the computer all day, and it rocks to be able to relax in a lazy boy, and surf and hack with it on your lap, not having to worry about good posture for typing position, just rather laying back relaxing and using it, where as, I just can't do the portable with keyboard thing (after i am toast for the day). (i use a vnc to go through to my desktops ubuntu, but the handwriting rec. doesn't pass the finalized word thorugh vnc which is odd, also it doesnt work on alot of fields in firefox browser, but always works on explorer, seems like its one of those lock in thigns with microsoft, that is, even firefox on MX vista doesnt "tablet compute" nearly as well as IE does. Ateast i get to talk knowledgable about how bad vista really is, by having to excperience it (because of tablet/visio need). And boy did they screw up .. i know why they have such a bad wrap with vista, they hurry the boot up, give you a desktop, that you think is usable, and it sort of is, but in the back ground it is doing so much other set up stuff, that the OS appears broken for the first 2-3 minutes once booted to desktop (and have a valid cursor), the trick is to leave it 3 minutes after you get the desk top. Of course i have still have unexplainable shutdowns, and unnecessary restarts needed, but hey, its MS! -tl On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 14:50:17 -0500 Tyler Aviss wrote: > In general I've had good luck with HP Pavillions, but my more recent > acquisition (tx2500ca) is still going through "growing pains". > > Turion X2 Ultra CPU: Powerful, but can get a little "toasty" on the lap > Mobility Radeon HD 3200 IGP graphics (working quite nicely with newest > FGLRX drivers) > 12" reversible-tablet screen /w touchscreen and digitizer pen (update > wacom drivers to use pen) > Intel HD audio (output is good, mic in seems to not be working) > Good battery life: (1.5h of doing 3d stuff /w Blender used maybe 25-30%) > Expresscard slot (PCMCIA successor, haven't tested) > Gigabit ethernet: native support > 802.11n Wireless: (driver issues in current kernels. B43 project > expects to be addressing N cards hopefully sometime in the > not-too-far-future) > 320GB HDD > 4GB RAM > Cardreader: native supoprt > Bluetooth: native support > > tabletpcreview has a page on it here: > http://www.tabletpcreview.com/default.asp?newsID=1217 > > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Salman Ahmed wrote: > > You might want to consider Lenovo laptops. I have a 15" Lenovo Thinkpad T61 that's very good except for it's battery life... the 15" WSXGA screen and the NVidia card seem to be big battery hogs though. And the 9-cell lenovo battery for my T61 wasn't cheap (CDN$175). > > > > I have a feeling you're averse to Dell Latitude laptops, otherwise I'd recommend a new-ish Latitude D830. They are standard issue in our company and my entire team has been using fairly well-specced D830s without any problems. Compared to my personal Lenovo T61 I find my office Latitude D830 to be better built with an excellent display (15" UXGA) and amazing battery life. > > > > > > > > Salman Ahmed > > > > > > > > > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2 > (647) 302-0942 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 22:23:42 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:23:42 -0500 Subject: laptop suggestions? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902021150kfbb7c29w57c98df9e6c79848-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c@webmail.utoronto.ca> <612907.32681.qm@web51802.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3a97ef0902021150kfbb7c29w57c98df9e6c79848@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090202222342.GP26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 02, 2009 at 02:50:17PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: > In general I've had good luck with HP Pavillions, but my more recent > acquisition (tx2500ca) is still going through "growing pains". > > Turion X2 Ultra CPU: Powerful, but can get a little "toasty" on the lap > Mobility Radeon HD 3200 IGP graphics (working quite nicely with newest > FGLRX drivers) > 12" reversible-tablet screen /w touchscreen and digitizer pen (update > wacom drivers to use pen) > Intel HD audio (output is good, mic in seems to not be working) > Good battery life: (1.5h of doing 3d stuff /w Blender used maybe 25-30%) > Expresscard slot (PCMCIA successor, haven't tested) > Gigabit ethernet: native support > 802.11n Wireless: (driver issues in current kernels. B43 project > expects to be addressing N cards hopefully sometime in the > not-too-far-future) > 320GB HDD > 4GB RAM > Cardreader: native supoprt > Bluetooth: native support > > tabletpcreview has a page on it here: > http://www.tabletpcreview.com/default.asp?newsID=1217 Well I wouldn't expect much from it based on my experience with HP's crappy quality on their consumer products. ATI graphics and chipset and broadcom wireless are also on my avoid at all cost list. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 01:19:06 2009 From: jason-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg at public.gmane.org (Jason Carson) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:19:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: RMS at U of T Monday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fc252ac8224af6bc99438295e1596cc.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Anyone go? How was it? > > > -- > Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster > =================================================================== > Author: > Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 12:28:30 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 07:28:30 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <20090202163333.GN26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090202163333.GN26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4988386E.4000802@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 09:35:16PM +0000, Peter wrote: > >> Imnsho a P4 and a 'stack of NICs' will likely do better than any consumer grade >> box you can buy for money now. Otoh, if you would shop around for an older Cisco >> or other brand name business grade router, that would very likely fit the bill >> for the same money and work almost forever. A well used older model Cisco should >> be well under $100 and with some expert programming will very likely fulfill ALL >> your special packet routing needs, plus it's an all metal super rugged part that >> will last almost forever. >> > > Cisco's are rugged? Since when? They generate heat like crazy, and > hate anything outside cool room temperature. And getting firmware > updates to fix security problems is nearly imposible unless you pay for > a support contract. > > Take a look at Adtran. I haven't noticed them running hot and updates are free. All you have to do is download & install them. Adtran's AOS is very similar to IOS. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 12:41:34 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 07:41:34 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090202162959.GM26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49883B7E.70307@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > Lennart Sorensen writes: > >> I have an Asus WL500gp v1 that I like a lot. No idea what the 330 >> is like. >> > > Thanks to all for answering. The WL-330 is a tiny (2oz) external box that > connects to laptop (or not) USB (for power) and RJ45 (ethernet) and can be > configured as a standalone access point, normal wifi receiver, or signal booster > (range booster). It needs zero configuration since it looks like a router to the > laptop, so all 'auto connect' schemes will work great. Minus: no WPA support, > WEP or open config will have to be enough. > > You have to configure which mode you want. As for encryption, I regularly use WPA2 with mine. The 5 modes are gateway, where the AP connects wireless devices to the internet, and also includes a "hot spot" mode, where you can share a hot spot connection. It's also a repeater, can connect ethernet devices to WiFi and it will even act as a plain access point. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 13:25:26 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:25:26 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <20090130214017.GK26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <498845C6.4070206@rogers.com> Peter wrote: > Is there a list of wifi hardware that works in access point mode with linux ? > (internal or external usb, pci and mini-pci (laptop) cards). The ASUS WL-330 > device is the only 'always works' option for this so far, afaik. Please set me > right ? > > Well, anything that connects with an ethernet cable should work. Routers & stuff need only a browser and shouldn't care about the OS. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 15:00:34 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 10:00:34 -0500 Subject: RMS at U of T Monday In-Reply-To: <9fc252ac8224af6bc99438295e1596cc.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org> References: <9fc252ac8224af6bc99438295e1596cc.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Message-ID: <7c50d3570902030700k1109bebamacf4afd697623d5f@mail.gmail.com> On 02/02/2009, Jason Carson wrote: > Anyone go? How was it? > > > > > > > > -- > > Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster > > I was going to go, but remembered only at the last minute, so I missed it. :( -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 2 14:52:12 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:52:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: FOSDEM 2009 - Ada Developer Room, Sat 7 & Sun 8 2009, Brussels Message-ID: If you happen to be in Belgium this week, there's a day-long open source GNU Ada workshop. Ken B. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken at pegasoft.ca "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 22:24:06 +0100 From: Dirk Craeynest To: SIGADA-ANNOUNCE-0lvw86wZMd8LmzJvb425Mg at public.gmane.org Subject: FOSDEM 2009 - Ada Developer Room, Sat 7 & Sun 8 2009, Brussels The following message is distributed to various mailing lists and newsgroups. As FOSDEM is an international event attracting thousands of participants, you might be interested to attend and/or help announce the Ada Developer Room. Thanks for any help! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ada-Belgium is pleased to announce its A d a D e v e l o p e r R o o m a t F O S D E M 2 0 0 9 (Free and Open-Source Software Developers' European Meeting) Saturday 7 & Sunday 8 February 2009 Universit? Libre de Bruxelles (U.L.B.), Solbosch Campus, Room AW1.124 Avenue Franklin D. Roosevelt Laan 50, B-1050 Brussels, Belgium http://www.cs.kuleuven.be/~dirk/ada-belgium/events/09/090207-fosdem.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The Free and Open-Source Developers' Meeting (FOSDEM) is an annual event held in Brussels, Belgium, in February. The 2009 edition will take place on Saturday the 7th and Sunday the 8th of February. Ada-Belgium has organized a series of presentations related to Ada, to be held in a dedicated Developer Room, on both days of the event. Ada is a general-purpose language originally designed for safety- and mission-critical software engineering. It is used extensively in air traffic control, rail transportation, aerospace, nuclear, financial services and medical devices. The new Ada 2005 standard which was published by ISO in 2007, starts to spread thanks to the advent of its first full implementation which is none other than the GNU Compiler Collection (GNAT). This DevRoom aims to present a couple of the possibilities offered by the Ada Language (object-oriented, multi-core, embedded programming) and some of the very useful existing tools (GNAT Programming Studio, GNATBench, ...). Presentations on Saturday 7 February 2009 ----------------------------------------- 13:00-13:15 Welcome to the Ada DevRoom, by Dirk Craeynest - Ada-Belgium 13:15-14:00 Lunch Time - Ada informal discussions, by Valentine Reboul 14:00-15:00 An Introduction to Ada for Beginning or Experienced Programmers, by Jean-Pierre Rosen - Adalog This presentation exposes the main features of the Ada language, with special emphasis on the features that make it especially attractive for free software development. 15:00-16:00 GPS - The GNAT Programming Studio, by Vincent Celier - AdaCore GPS, the GNAT Programming Studio, is a powerful and simple-to-use Integrated Development Environment that serves as portal to the GNAT toolchain. It provides customizable settings, browsing, syntax- directed editing, easy integration with third party tools such as Version Control Systems, source navigation, dependency graphs, and more. Built entirely in Ada, GPS is designed to allow programmers to get the most out of GNAT technology. 16:00-17:00 Ada in Debian, by Ludovic Brenta - Debian Ludovic Brenta will explain his work as the principal maintainer of Ada in Debian, and the policy that unites all Ada packages, thereby making Debian the best free Ada development platform in the world. The Debian Project is an association of individuals who have made common cause to create a free operating system. The development processes are open to the public and anyone can contribute. The strict Debian Free Software Guidelines are the basis of the Open Source Definition. The resulting operating system consists of tens of thousands of Free Software packages and is renowned for its reliability, thanks to Debian's extensive quality assurance policy. Debian GNU/Linux supports 12 hardware architectures and 4 more are in various stages of development. Debian GNU/Hurd, Debian GNU/NetBSD and Debian GNU/kFreeBSD are works in progress. Several other distributions use Debian as their foundation. 17:00-18:00 Ada Annex E - Distributed Systems, by Thomas Quinot - AdaCore The Distributed Systems Annex is an optional part of the Ada language that allows writing programs that are distributed across several computers. Each "partition" of the program, running on one machine, communicates with the others by means of remote procedure calls and shared data structures. Ada provides facilities to make this communication completely transparent to the programmer. Thanks to it, writing a distributed program is no more complex than writing a monolithic one. Indeed, it is possible to recompile a distributed program to make it either distributed or monolithic with no changes to the program source. There are two Free Software implementations of Annex E for GNAT, the GNU Ada compiler: GLADE and its successor PolyORB, both licensed under terms of the GPL. 18:00-19:00 NARVAL - Distributed Data Acquisition from Particle Accelerators, by Xavier Grave - Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique NARVAL stands for "Nouvelle Acquisition temps Reel Version 1.6 Avec Linux". It is a distributed data acquisition software system that collects and processes data from nuclear and particles physics detectors. NARVAL replaces an older system based on C, Fortran and proprietary technologies with Ada and Debian GNU/Linux and is itself Free Software. In order to ensure maximum data safety most of the program is written in Ada with heavy use of Annex E, the Distributed Systems Annex. Software engineers and physicists from several countries used this system for fundamental research. The talk will present the NARVAL architecture in detail with some focus on the multi-tasking dataflow core and the configuration done through Annex E. Presentations on Sunday 8 February 2009 --------------------------------------- 10:00-11:00 GPRBuild - A New Build Tool for Large-Scale Software Development, by Vincent Celier - AdaCore GPRBuild is a Free (GPL) modern multi-language builder from AdaCore. It is a configurable tool that is able to drive a large number of tool chains, both native and cross, of many languages, such as Ada, C, C++, Fortran, Assembler, etc. With GPRBuild, you are able to build systems written in one or several languages, with the main program in any language. GPRBuild (re)compiles sources, (re)builds libraries and (re)links executables. 11:00-12:00 The Object-Oriented Programming Model in Ada 2005, by Jean-Pierre Rosen - Adalog This presentation exposes how Ada handles the object oriented paradigm, and especially how its model is different from what is commonly found in other languages. It discusses the benefits and drawbacks of this original approach. 12:00-13:00 Ast2Cfg - A Framework for CFG-Based Analysis and Visualisation of Ada Programs, by Georg Kienesberger - Vienna University of Technology The control flow graph is the basis for many code optimisation and analysis techniques. Ast2Cfg is a Free Software framework for the construction of powerful CFG-based representations of arbitrary Ada programs. The generated data holds extensive information about the original Ada source, such as visibility, package structure and type definitions and provides means for complete interprocedural analysis. Ast2Cfg was developed exclusively with Free Software like GNAT, the GNU Ada Compiler, and ASIS-for-GNAT. This presentation gives an overview on how to use the Ast2Cfg framework, and includes basics on the used data structures, an introduction to the architecture and a thorough coverage of the programming interface with numerous examples. 13:00-14:00 Lunch Time - Ada informal discussions, by Valentine Reboul 14:00-15:00 MaRTE-OS - A Hard Real-Time Operating System for Embedded Devices, by Daniel Sangorrin and Miguel Telleria de Esteban - Universidad de Cantabria MaRTE-OS is a Free (GPL) operating system developed in Ada that complies with the POSIX.13 minimal real-time subset (also known as "the toaster profile") and Ada Real-Time Systems Annex D. It is thread based (no support for processes or different memory spaces and MMU's) and provides all synchronisation and timing features of the POSIX Real Time standard. It can run as stand-alone (providing full Real-Time capabilitiies with support for drivers and real-time networks) or as a Linux process (handling task scheduling itself and possibly interacting with Linux shared libraries and filesystems). Applications can be developed in Ada 2005, C or C++. The talk will present MaRTE features, the choice of Ada for Real-Time, developement environments and a demo from the FRESCOR project. 15:00-16:00 GNATBench - Ada programming with Eclipse, by Vincent Celier - AdaCore The GNATbench plug-in for Eclipse brings the advantages of AdaCore's GNAT toolset to Wind River's Workbench integrated development environment for embedded systems running VxWorks. More information on Ada DevRoom ------------------------------- Speakers bios, pointers to relevant information, links to other sites about this event, etc., are available on the Ada-Belgium site at http://www.cs.kuleuven.be/~dirk/ada-belgium/events/09/090207-fosdem.html We invite you to attend some or all of the presentations: they will be given in English. Everybody interested can attend FOSDEM 2009; no registration is necessary. We hope to see many of you there! Valentine, Ludovic, Dirk The FOSDEM Team of Ada-Belgium ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 15:27:11 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 10:27:11 -0500 Subject: RMS at U of T Monday In-Reply-To: <9fc252ac8224af6bc99438295e1596cc.squirrel-HjkH5KTEMfuEjziKL+yzSg@public.gmane.org> References: <9fc252ac8224af6bc99438295e1596cc.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Message-ID: On 2/2/09, Jason Carson wrote: > Anyone go? How was it? I went and it was good. Last time I saw Richard Stallman was in 1989 when he gave a talk in Boston, MA. My impression is that the man has mellowed a bit, or just gotten a bit older :-) . How does a 10 year copyright sound to everyone? Colin McGregor >> >> >> -- >> Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster >> =================================================================== >> Author: >> Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 15:54:18 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 10:54:18 -0500 Subject: Has Anyone Heard Of: Phantom OS Message-ID: <7c50d3570902030754h4ad12dd7ja08e8edca4bf66f5@mail.gmail.com> A excerpt from the story: "It's nine degrees Fahrenheit in Moscow right now. That's the kind of cold that makes a man concentrate on his work so he can keep from remembering that the tears the wind blows out of his eyes will freeze on the side of his face before they hit the ground. In the middle of this icebox, Dmitry Zavalishin is cooking up a new operating system. He calls it Phantom. Phantom is a different approach on the OS than any other out there, with the primary goal of being immortal. In Phantom, powering off the computer will not cause programs to lose state. They can pick up where they left off as soon as the machine is turned back on." Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/03/phantom_russian_os/ -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 16:19:09 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:19:09 -0500 Subject: FOSDEM 2009 - Ada Developer Room, Sat 7 & Sun 8 2009, Brussels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49886E7D.9090602@rogers.com> Ken Burtch wrote: > > If you happen to be in Belgium this week, there's a day-long open > source GNU Ada workshop. If it's Tuesday, this must be Belgium. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 16:54:10 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:54:10 -0500 Subject: RMS at U of T Monday In-Reply-To: References: <9fc252ac8224af6bc99438295e1596cc.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0902030854w67083898p41f333b1bdfe0733@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > On 2/2/09, Jason Carson wrote: >> Anyone go? How was it? > > I went and it was good. Last time I saw Richard Stallman was in 1989 > when he gave a talk in Boston, MA. My impression is that the man has > mellowed a bit, or just gotten a bit older :-) . > > How does a 10 year copyright sound to everyone? I was down with a nasty cold through the weekend so I didn't make it. 10 years total (ie. not after death) I could live with though. :) -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 17:18:49 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:18:49 -0500 Subject: RMS at U of T Monday In-Reply-To: References: <9fc252ac8224af6bc99438295e1596cc.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> Message-ID: <20090203171849.GQ26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 10:27:11AM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > I went and it was good. Last time I saw Richard Stallman was in 1989 > when he gave a talk in Boston, MA. My impression is that the man has > mellowed a bit, or just gotten a bit older :-) . > > How does a 10 year copyright sound to everyone? Could be interesting. Would certainly keep up with the pace of development better. I guess music people would have to keep making new stuff if they wanted copyright royalties, although I think they make most moeny from concerts anyhow, so no difference there. Lots of books seem to be hard to find once they are a few years old, so even if you want to buy a copy you can't. So the publishers are larhgely just sitting on a copyright and preventing access to the material even from people that would pay them money. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 17:20:33 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:20:33 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <4988386E.4000802-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090202163333.GN26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4988386E.4000802@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20090203172033.GR26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 07:28:30AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > Take a look at Adtran. I haven't noticed them running hot and updates > are free. All you have to do is download & install them. Adtran's AOS > is very similar to IOS. We make nice rugged network gear at ruggedcom, although it's not cheap. :) The routers run a modified Debian. The switches are some realtime OS that I don't really know anything about. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 17:25:11 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:25:11 -0500 Subject: Has Anyone Heard Of: Phantom OS In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570902030754h4ad12dd7ja08e8edca4bf66f5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570902030754h4ad12dd7ja08e8edca4bf66f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090203172510.GS26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 10:54:18AM -0500, Michael Lauzon wrote: > A excerpt from the story: > > "It's nine degrees Fahrenheit in Moscow right now. That's the kind of > cold that makes a man concentrate on his work so he can keep from > remembering that the tears the wind blows out of his eyes will freeze > on the side of his face before they hit the ground. > > In the middle of this icebox, Dmitry Zavalishin is cooking up a new > operating system. He calls it Phantom. Phantom is a different approach > on the OS than any other out there, with the primary goal of being > immortal. In Phantom, powering off the computer will not cause > programs to lose state. They can pick up where they left off as soon > as the machine is turned back on." > > Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/03/phantom_russian_os/ So if you are constantly snapshotting, you are going to be VERY inefficient, and your laptop will have very little battery life. If you have no filesystem, but only persistent state, then any error that does happen will be exteremely hard to recover from since how do you recreate the current persistent state from scratch if the system has gotten into a bad state. So interesting idea, which I expect to never hear about ever again, because no one will want anything with these tradeoffs. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 17:26:01 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:26:01 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <20090203172033.GR26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090202163333.GN26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4988386E.4000802@rogers.com> <20090203172033.GR26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49887E29.90206@rogers.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 07:28:30AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > >> Take a look at Adtran. I haven't noticed them running hot and updates >> are free. All you have to do is download & install them. Adtran's AOS >> is very similar to IOS. >> > > We make nice rugged network gear at ruggedcom, although it's not cheap. > :) The routers run a modified Debian. The switches are some realtime > OS that I don't really know anything about. > > The company I work for sells Adtran, among others. However, some of the gear we sell runs on Linux. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 17:31:41 2009 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:31:41 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <20090203172033.GR26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090202163333.GN26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4988386E.4000802@rogers.com> <20090203172033.GR26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49887F7D.9030200@linuxcaffe.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > We make nice rugged network gear at ruggedcom, although it's not cheap. "not cheap" as in "really expensive" ? > :) The routers run a modified Debian. The switches are some realtime > OS that I don't really know anything about. [GASP!] whatdya mean Lennart ?? What are you saying ?? [staggers about disillusioned] how is this possible ? [begins to rebuild world view] djp > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 17:58:14 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:58:14 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <49887F7D.9030200-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090202163333.GN26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4988386E.4000802@rogers.com> <20090203172033.GR26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49887F7D.9030200@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <20090203175814.GT26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 12:31:41PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > >:) The routers run a modified Debian. The switches are some realtime > >OS that I don't really know anything about. > [GASP!] whatdya mean Lennart ?? What are you saying ?? [staggers about > disillusioned] how is this possible ? [begins to rebuild world view] The switches run some proprietary real time OS, and I have never worked on the switch products, so hence I haven't had any reason to look at the source code. It also uses C++ which I prefer to avoid. I work on the routers, which is part of the reason they use Debian (slightly modified). Working on the linux stuff is more my thing. I don't have room in my head for details of all the various things that aren't linux after all. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 18:06:20 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:06:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Has Anyone Heard Of: Phantom OS In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570902030754h4ad12dd7ja08e8edca4bf66f5-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570902030754h4ad12dd7ja08e8edca4bf66f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Feb 2009, Michael Lauzon wrote: > In the middle of this icebox, Dmitry Zavalishin is cooking up a new > operating system. He calls it Phantom. Phantom is a different approach > on the OS than any other out there, with the primary goal of being > immortal. In Phantom, powering off the computer will not cause > programs to lose state. They can pick up where they left off as soon > as the machine is turned back on." Eros has this capability. I expect Coyotos and CapROS (it's successors) will too. I'll check out Phantom though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_Reliable_Operating_System Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 18:41:48 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:41:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: RMS at U of T Monday In-Reply-To: <20090203171849.GQ26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <9fc252ac8224af6bc99438295e1596cc.squirrel@jasoncarson.ca> <20090203171849.GQ26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 10:27:11AM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: | > How does a 10 year copyright sound to everyone? | Lots of books seem to be hard to find once they are a few years old, so | even if you want to buy a copy you can't. So the publishers are | larhgely just sitting on a copyright and preventing access to the | material even from people that would pay them money. RMS argued that 10 years (from date of publication) seemed about right since it is three times the traditional three-year cycle of publication to non-availability. On the other hand, I actually like the Penguin model which seems to have a long life for their back catalogue. I also think that the book to film transition often takes longer than 10 years. So this argument for 10 years does not convince me. Not that I'm a fan of "forever". It might be worth thinking about copyright being contingent on availability. There is nothing so sad as a work lost because of copyright. (One of the evils of DRM is that it effectively prevents copyrights from expiring, if the publisher so chooses. RMS didn't mention this because he just says DRM is evil and should not exist, period.) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 16:20:44 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:20:44 -0500 Subject: sed syntax Message-ID: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> ok after all these years with linux i still have all kinds of trouble with regexp's. i have a file full of error messages from dmesg: [125559.165041] Buffer I/O error on device sda5, logical block 19698429 (i know, it's not a good sign; i'm just trying to hang onto this drive for a little longer) i want to cut these lines back so i just have the block number: 19698429 now, i know i can do that with 'cut -d " " -f 10', but my first impulse was to do it with sed, and i, as usual, don't understand what i'md doing wrong. since i just want the final 8-digit block number, i thought i could do this: cat file | sed 's/(^.*)([0-9]*$)/\2/' but that returns the initial file unmodified. any ints out there? thanks as always, matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 16:12:46 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:12:46 -0500 Subject: laptop suggestions? In-Reply-To: <612907.32681.qm-1HoIwBZJ7NaB9c0Qi4KiSl5cfvJIxWXgQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <612907.32681.qm@web51802.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1233677566.15735.486.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 11:34 -0800, Salman Ahmed wrote: > You might want to consider Lenovo laptops. I have a 15" Lenovo Thinkpad T61 that's very good except for it's battery life... the 15" WSXGA screen and the NVidia card seem to be big battery hogs though. And the 9-cell lenovo battery for my T61 wasn't cheap (CDN$175). > > I have a feeling you're averse to Dell Latitude laptops, otherwise I'd recommend a new-ish Latitude D830. They are standard issue in our company and my entire team has been using fairly well-specced D830s without any problems. Compared to my personal Lenovo T61 I find my office Latitude D830 to be better built with an excellent display (15" UXGA) and amazing battery life. > dude -- never again! the battery life on my d820 fell off to 45 minutes within 9 months. awful. and the keys on the keyboard are really flimsy; i have a clumsy right hand, and i'm constantly catching a nail underneath one and popping it off. some go back on, some don't -- so for instance i shift by pressing my pinky on directly on the contact wires in the circuitboard... i think the battery issue was fixed after the 820, not sure though. m > > > Salman Ahmed > > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 19:22:54 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:22:54 -0500 Subject: laptop suggestions? In-Reply-To: <1233677566.15735.486.camel@localhost> References: <612907.32681.qm@web51802.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1233677566.15735.486.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090203192254.GU26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 11:12:46AM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > dude -- never again! the battery life on my d820 fell off to 45 minutes > within 9 months. awful. and the keys on the keyboard are really > flimsy; i have a clumsy right hand, and i'm constantly catching a nail > underneath one and popping it off. some go back on, some don't -- so > for instance i shift by pressing my pinky on directly on the contact > wires in the circuitboard... > > i think the battery issue was fixed after the 820, not sure though. My wife's asus tablet actually dropped battery life like that after about 6 months, and a call to asus support with the line "I have a tablet with no battery life left" was answered with "would you like a new one shipped to you for an RMA?" without even getting to checking serial numbers or anything. They had a bad batch of batteries, and they were replacing them with no fuss what so ever. Maybe Dell too got a bad batch of batteries. Not sure Dell would be as easy to deall with however. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 19:25:49 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:25:49 -0500 Subject: sed syntax In-Reply-To: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> References: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090203192548.GV26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 11:20:44AM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > after all these years with linux i still have all kinds of trouble with > regexp's. i have a file full of error messages from dmesg: > > [125559.165041] Buffer I/O error on device sda5, logical block 19698429 > > (i know, it's not a good sign; i'm just trying to hang onto this drive > for a little longer) > > i want to cut these lines back so i just have the block number: > 19698429 > > now, i know i can do that with 'cut -d " " -f 10', but my first impulse > was to do it with sed, and i, as usual, don't understand what i'md doing > wrong. since i just want the final 8-digit block number, i thought i > could do this: > cat file | sed 's/(^.*)([0-9]*$)/\2/' > > but that returns the initial file unmodified. > > any ints out there? thanks as always, How about: sed 's/.*block \([0-9]*\)$/\1/' I think the main problem was you failed to escape the ()'s which sed requires. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 19:27:10 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:27:10 -0500 Subject: sed syntax In-Reply-To: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> References: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> Message-ID: I think you're missing backslashes in front of the opening and closing parentheses, but it's been around 30 years since I last used sed, so I could easily be wrong. Colin On 2/3/09, Matt Price wrote: > ok > > after all these years with linux i still have all kinds of trouble with > regexp's. i have a file full of error messages from dmesg: > > [125559.165041] Buffer I/O error on device sda5, logical block 19698429 > > (i know, it's not a good sign; i'm just trying to hang onto this drive > for a little longer) > > i want to cut these lines back so i just have the block number: > 19698429 > > now, i know i can do that with 'cut -d " " -f 10', but my first impulse > was to do it with sed, and i, as usual, don't understand what i'md doing > wrong. since i just want the final 8-digit block number, i thought i > could do this: > cat file | sed 's/(^.*)([0-9]*$)/\2/' > > but that returns the initial file unmodified. > > any ints out there? thanks as always, > > matt > > > -- > Matt Price > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 16:10:32 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:10:32 -0500 Subject: laptop suggestions? In-Reply-To: <49875586.3080102-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c@webmail.utoronto.ca> <49875586.3080102@rogers.com> Message-ID: <1233677432.15735.477.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 15:20 -0500, Stephen wrote: > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > > hey folks, > > > > somehting's just killed the second hard drive in a row on my dell > > latitude d820 -- i suspect either the constant overheating or a bug > > with hard drive controllers in ubuntu 8.04/8.10 -- and i'm htinking it > > might be worht just buying a new laptop instead of going through the > > same drive nightmare another time. has anyone bought a reasonably > > proced, dual-core laptop with a half-decent battery life lately? I > > guess my preference would be for an asus or something without windows, > > but if i have to pay the windows tax i will. anyway: any > > suggestions? i'm headed down to the states next week and thought i > > might pick up something cheap. thanks! > > > I suggest checking out MSI laptops. No MS tax. Mine is a year old, so I > can't offer current info. > > I recommend http://www.cnpcanada.com/ > > Call Steven and let him know what you are looking for. the price looks pretty good for the specs stephen -- thanks for the heads-up. Since you're an msi user -- can you tell me how you like the keyboard? i used to be a thinkpad user, and while i really can't afford them anymore now that i pay for my lkaptop myself, i miss that awesome keyboard. thanks! matt > > Stephen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 19:29:43 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 14:29:43 -0500 Subject: sed syntax In-Reply-To: <20090203192548.GV26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> <20090203192548.GV26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49889B27.9060207@utoronto.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 11:20:44AM -0500, Matt Price wrote: >> after all these years with linux i still have all kinds of trouble with >> regexp's. i have a file full of error messages from dmesg: >> >> [125559.165041] Buffer I/O error on device sda5, logical block 19698429 >> >> (i know, it's not a good sign; i'm just trying to hang onto this drive >> for a little longer) >> >> i want to cut these lines back so i just have the block number: >> 19698429 >> >> now, i know i can do that with 'cut -d " " -f 10', but my first impulse >> was to do it with sed, and i, as usual, don't understand what i'md doing >> wrong. since i just want the final 8-digit block number, i thought i >> could do this: >> cat file | sed 's/(^.*)([0-9]*$)/\2/' >> >> but that returns the initial file unmodified. >> >> any ints out there? thanks as always, > > How about: > > sed 's/.*block \([0-9]*\)$/\1/' > > I think the main problem was you failed to escape the ()'s which sed > requires. > Sed works, but awk is designed for just the task you're attempting: cat file.txt | awk '{print $10}' Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 20:18:53 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 15:18:53 -0500 Subject: sed syntax In-Reply-To: <49889B27.9060207-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> <20090203192548.GV26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49889B27.9060207@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1233692333.15735.1251.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-02-03 at 14:29 -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 11:20:44AM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > >> after all these years with linux i still have all kinds of trouble with > >> regexp's. i have a file full of error messages from dmesg: > >> > >> [125559.165041] Buffer I/O error on device sda5, logical block 19698429 > >> > >> (i know, it's not a good sign; i'm just trying to hang onto this drive > >> for a little longer) > >> > >> i want to cut these lines back so i just have the block number: > >> 19698429\ > >> cat file | sed 's/(^.*)([0-9]*$)/\2/' > >> > >> but that returns the initial file unmodified. > >> > >> any ints out there? thanks as always, ^hints > > > > How about: > > > > sed 's/.*block \([0-9]*\)$/\1/' > > hmm, that also seems to just return the same data unprocessed. > > > I think the main problem was you failed to escape the ()'s which sed > > requires. > > > > Sed works, but awk is designed for just the task you're attempting: > cat file.txt | awk '{print $10}' > cool. what if there weren't always 10 fields? is there a straightforward awk way to just get the final numerical expression? thx again, m > Jamon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 20:24:10 2009 From: stephen-d-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Stephen) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 15:24:10 -0500 Subject: laptop suggestions? In-Reply-To: <1233677432.15735.477.camel@localhost> References: <20090202134555.wdsgb3svv48gww8c@webmail.utoronto.ca> <49875586.3080102@rogers.com> <1233677432.15735.477.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4988A7EA.5090906@rogers.com> Matt Price wrote: > the price looks pretty good for the specs stephen -- thanks for the > heads-up. Since you're an msi user -- can you tell me how you like the > keyboard? i used to be a thinkpad user, and while i really can't afford > them anymore now that i pay for my lkaptop myself, i miss that awesome > keyboard. > I found the keyboard needed a heavier touch. Took a couple of days to get used to. But it does have a separate numeric keyboard which I really like. After 15 months the laptop is still in great shape. (Otherwise I would not have recommended it). But I find with every new laptop (and I am on my 7th) there is a learning curve. Different feel. Different layout. Stephen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 20:47:16 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:47:16 -0500 Subject: sed syntax In-Reply-To: <1233692333.15735.1251.camel@localhost> References: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> <20090203192548.GV26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49889B27.9060207@utoronto.ca> <1233692333.15735.1251.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090203204715.GW26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 03:18:53PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > How about: > > > > > > sed 's/.*block \([0-9]*\)$/\1/' > > > > hmm, that also seems to just return the same data unprocessed. echo "[125559.165041] Buffer I/O error on device sda5, logical block 19698429" | sed 's/.*block \([0-9]*\)$/\1/' returns: 19698429 What else should it do? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 20:53:30 2009 From: ispeters-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ian Petersen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 12:53:30 -0800 Subject: sed syntax In-Reply-To: <20090203204715.GW26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> <20090203192548.GV26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49889B27.9060207@utoronto.ca> <1233692333.15735.1251.camel@localhost> <20090203204715.GW26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <7ac602420902031253n36f8c7e7o39d8bcdeb3e3c78f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 03:18:53PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: >> > Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> > > How about: >> > > >> > > sed 's/.*block \([0-9]*\)$/\1/' >> > > >> hmm, that also seems to just return the same data unprocessed. > > echo "[125559.165041] Buffer I/O error on device sda5, logical block 19698429" | sed 's/.*block \([0-9]*\)$/\1/' > > returns: 19698429 > > What else should it do? Maybe Matt is looking for this: sed -n 's/.*block \([0-9]*\)$/\1/p' ? Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 20:57:08 2009 From: jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:57:08 -0500 Subject: sed syntax In-Reply-To: <1233692333.15735.1251.camel@localhost> References: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> <20090203192548.GV26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49889B27.9060207@utoronto.ca> <1233692333.15735.1251.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 03:18:53PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > ... > cool. what if there weren't always 10 fields? is there a > straightforward awk way to just get the final numerical expression? This sed 's/^.*[^0-9]//' will discard as much as possible from the start of the line, ending with a non-digit. Of course, if there's anything after the number, even whitespace, it won't work. HTH JV -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4 at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 21:01:34 2009 From: psema4 at gmail.com (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: Linux Community Begins Crafting Radio Ad Message-ID: <99a6c38f0902031301i56eda8e4vba1505e0729fc815@mail.gmail.com> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/01/linux-community-begins-crafting-radio.html FTA: "It's been discussed to distraction...whether advertising Linux would do any good or not. Well, we are not far from finding out. Our "Voice of Linux", we'll call him George...simply because that's his name; has given us some raw audio to work with. It is awesome...truly it is. Now we simply need to form and polish it. Cut it, splice it, add music, voice-overs...whatever you want to do...redo it in your own voice or make your own...we are going to showcase the Linux Community talent on this project." Thanks for pointing this one out AB! PS - Earlier today I posted a link on my Reader feed to a list of audio software for Linux; may be useful to some wanting to get in on the effort: http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/freeware/linux/ PSS - Please forgive the cross-post. (Please? ;-) -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 21:16:21 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:16:21 -0500 Subject: sed syntax In-Reply-To: <1233692333.15735.1251.camel@localhost> References: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> <20090203192548.GV26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49889B27.9060207@utoronto.ca> <1233692333.15735.1251.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4988B425.2000602@utoronto.ca> Matt Price wrote: >>> How about: >>> >>> sed 's/.*block \([0-9]*\)$/\1/' >>> > hmm, that also seems to just return the same data unprocessed. > > >> >>> I think the main problem was you failed to escape the ()'s which sed >>> requires. >>> >> Sed works, but awk is designed for just the task you're attempting: >> cat file.txt | awk '{print $10}' >> > cool. what if there weren't always 10 fields? is there a > straightforward awk way to just get the final numerical expression? Try '{print $NF}'. Even better: awk '/I\/O error/ {print $NF}' file.txt The part between the / / is for regexes, escaped as usual (like I\/O instead of I/O) using a \. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 3 21:47:10 2009 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 16:47:10 -0500 Subject: sed syntax In-Reply-To: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> References: <1233678044.15735.518.camel@localhost> Message-ID: There's a simple solution with Perl: foo at bar$ perl -ne '@w=split;print"$w[-1]\n"' block.lst You can use awk as well: foo at bar$ awk '{print $NF}' block.lst Alex On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Matt Price wrote: > ok > > after all these years with linux i still have all kinds of trouble with > regexp's. i have a file full of error messages from dmesg: > > [125559.165041] Buffer I/O error on device sda5, logical block 19698429 > > (i know, it's not a good sign; i'm just trying to hang onto this drive > for a little longer) > > i want to cut these lines back so i just have the block number: > 19698429 > > now, i know i can do that with 'cut -d " " -f 10', but my first impulse > was to do it with sed, and i, as usual, don't understand what i'md doing > wrong. since i just want the final 8-digit block number, i thought i > could do this: > cat file | sed 's/(^.*)([0-9]*$)/\2/' > > but that returns the initial file unmodified. > > any ints out there? thanks as always, > > matt > > > -- > Matt Price > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 05:28:18 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 00:28:18 -0500 Subject: Xephyr/Xnest in gentoo/sabayon (how?) Message-ID: <20090204002818.cff1c9e9.tleslie@tcn.net> i was just reading an old linux magazine, and came across a marcel article about xnest. I'd really like to try it, and I am just putting together a new linux box (ubuntu ibex and opensuse 11.1 just aren't doing it for me), so i am trying out sabayon (and so far completely blown away with it), and would like to get xnest || xephyr running on it, but I can't even get to first base with it (googling and such). Perhaps its that Sabayon (out of the box) doesn't "gentoo" right away, or whatever. I am really really new to the gentoo way of doing things, so maybe I am just missing something so obvious. I want to run a kde virtual X env on my Gnome desktop (i have the real-estate to allow this to work). -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 05:57:03 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 00:57:03 -0500 Subject: Xephyr/Xnest in gentoo/sabayon (how?) In-Reply-To: <20090204002818.cff1c9e9.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20090204002818.cff1c9e9.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20090204005703.c7f4077a.tleslie@tcn.net> Argghhhh its case sensitve, so it was right under my nose the whole time, i cant even remember aside from "X" (and that was ages ago), running a command that had a capital in it :( oh well i feel dumb! -tl On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 00:28:18 -0500 ted leslie wrote: > > i was just reading an old linux magazine, and came across a marcel article about xnest. > I'd really like to try it, > and I am just putting together a new linux box (ubuntu ibex and opensuse 11.1 just aren't doing it for me), so i am trying out > sabayon (and so far completely blown away with it), > and would like to get xnest || xephyr running on it, but I can't even get to first base with it (googling and such). > Perhaps its that Sabayon (out of the box) doesn't "gentoo" right away, or whatever. > I am really really new to the gentoo way of doing things, so maybe I am just missing something so obvious. > I want to run a kde virtual X env on my Gnome desktop (i have the real-estate to allow this to work). > > > > -- > ted leslie > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 06:15:44 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 01:15:44 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <49887F7D.9030200-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090202163333.GN26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4988386E.4000802@rogers.com> <20090203172033.GR26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49887F7D.9030200@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <20090204011544.6df462c8@teksavvy.com> David J Patrick wrote: > Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > > > We make nice rugged network gear at ruggedcom, although it's not cheap. > "not cheap" as in "really expensive" ? > > > :) The routers run a modified Debian. The switches are some realtime > > OS that I don't really know anything about. > [GASP!] whatdya mean Lennart ?? What are you saying ?? [staggers about > disillusioned] how is this possible ? [begins to rebuild world view] Ha! I had _exactly_ the same reaction :-) -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 08:09:00 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 03:09:00 -0500 Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware In-Reply-To: <20090203172033.GR26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <491f66a50901291813h11937ae9i78eb623bafe4af4e@mail.gmail.com> <498267F8.8030102@alteeve.com> <4984EB28.1050500@linuxcaffe.ca> <4985C00A.1060609@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090202163333.GN26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4988386E.4000802@rogers.com> <20090203172033.GR26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090204030900.7f880d1f@teksavvy.com> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 07:28:30AM -0500, James Knott wrote: > > Take a look at Adtran. I haven't noticed them running hot and updates > > are free. All you have to do is download & install them. Adtran's AOS > > is very similar to IOS. > > We make nice rugged network gear at ruggedcom, although it's not cheap. > :) The routers run a modified Debian. The switches are some realtime > OS that I don't really know anything about. Was just reading some of the specs for those routers. Says they will operate in environments up to 85C. You could almost boil water on one of these things and it would still be working. That's crazy impressive. -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 15:49:32 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 10:49:32 -0500 Subject: identifying logical sectors from disk sectors Message-ID: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> hi, so i have this failing disk drive i've mentioned in a couple of other posts. i've largely worked around that now by labelling the offending sectors as bad blocks, using fsck -L. There's at least one sector left, though, but for some reason dmesg is no longer showing the name of the offending logical sector, just the hardware sector: [211665.104970] ata1.00: configured for UDMA/133 [211665.105002] ata1: EH complete [211669.291778] ata1.00: exception Emask 0x0 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x0 action 0x0 [211669.291792] ata1.00: BMDMA stat 0x25 [211669.291805] ata1.00: cmd 25/00:08:aa:d9:79/00:00:11:00:00/e0 tag 0 dma 4096 in [211669.291808] res 51/40:08:aa:d9:79/40:00:11:00:00/e1 Emask 0x9 (media error) [211669.291815] ata1.00: status: { DRDY ERR } [211669.291820] ata1.00: error: { UNC } [211669.312792] ata1.00: configured for UDMA/133 [211669.312827] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Result: hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE,SUGGEST_OK [211669.312837] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Sense Key : Medium Error [current] [descriptor] [211669.312848] Descriptor sense data with sense descriptors (in hex): [211669.312854] 72 03 11 04 00 00 00 0c 00 0a 80 00 00 00 00 00 [211669.312877] 11 79 d9 aa [211669.312886] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Add. Sense: Unrecovered read error - auto reallocate failed [211669.312900] end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 293198250 [211669.312947] ata1: EH complete so i have this sector number, 293198250. i want to tell the drive never to try to read there. the only way i know how to do that is to use fsck to identify bad blocks; but i'm pretty sure this sector number is not on the scale that fsck requires for this particular file system (my other bad blocks are 8-digit numbers, this is a 9-digit number). is there a straightforward way to convert from one to the other? i have this info from dumpe2fs; Filesystem OS type: Linux Block count: 43839369 Block size: 4096 Fragment size: 4096 Reserved GDT blocks: 1013 Blocks per group: 32768 Fragments per group: 32768 Inodes per group: 8192 Inode blocks per group: 256 and this from fdisk: Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda5 8316 30146 175357476 83 Linux do i need to just divide the block number by 4 (175357476/43839369=4)? thanks as always, matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 17:06:37 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 17:06:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: Trying to offload some new wireless network hardware References: <49824F42.1090603@alteeve.com> <20090130214017.GK26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <498845C6.4070206@rogers.com> Message-ID: James Knott writes: > Well, anything that connects with an ethernet cable should work. > Routers & stuff need only a browser and shouldn't care about the OS. Sure but I need something internal preferrably, both for laptops and for boxes. The situation for standalone boxes is pretty clear. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 18:44:33 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 13:44:33 -0500 Subject: files and disk sectors In-Reply-To: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> References: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> while i'm thinking about this, is there a way to tell which files sit on a particular disk sector? something is accessing the bad sector on my disk over and over again, presumably reading a config file or something; if i could move that file to another sector things might get better for me. thx, matt ps i know i should get rid of the disk, or at least reformat and restore, but i have a lot of big video files on this disk, for which i have no backup space at the moment, and hwile it wouldn't kill me to lose them i'd stil lrather not. anyway appreciate the help as always... -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 18:58:08 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:58:08 -0500 Subject: files and disk sectors In-Reply-To: <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> References: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Hi Matt, You can definitely find out which file is at which sector. In fact, there are probably many ways to do this. A last resort methods is to dump the disk (dd the raw device). You have to have a larger partition to do this, of course. Then you can use a binary editory and manually examine and interpret the dump (you will have to understand partitioning and filesystem formats to do this). As I said, a last resort. Some filesystems come with tools - what filesystem do you have on your disk? The answer to your question (and others, potentially) will depend on that. Assuming that you're using one of the "ext" family, you could check wikipedia for useful information/links: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ext2" Cheers, Colin On 2/4/09, Matt Price wrote: > while i'm thinking about this, is there a way to tell which files sit on > a particular disk sector? something is accessing the bad sector on my > disk over and over again, presumably reading a config file or something; > if i could move that file to another sector things might get better for > me. > > thx, > matt > > ps i know i should get rid of the disk, or at least reformat and > restore, but i have a lot of big video files on this disk, for which i > have no backup space at the moment, and hwile it wouldn't kill me to > lose them i'd stil lrather not. anyway appreciate the help as always... > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 19:00:17 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:00:17 -0500 Subject: files and disk sectors In-Reply-To: <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> References: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090204190016.GX26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 01:44:33PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > while i'm thinking about this, is there a way to tell which files sit on > a particular disk sector? something is accessing the bad sector on my > disk over and over again, presumably reading a config file or something; > if i could move that file to another sector things might get better for > me. > > thx, > matt > > ps i know i should get rid of the disk, or at least reformat and > restore, but i have a lot of big video files on this disk, for which i > have no backup space at the moment, and hwile it wouldn't kill me to > lose them i'd stil lrather not. anyway appreciate the help as always... Try debugfs (in read only mode and with the filesystem mounted readonly) and use icheck to find the inode number using the block (mapping block to sector is going to be a different problem). Often the block size is 4k, but you can check with tune2fs -l on the device. If it is 4k, well then your block number would be 1/8th of the sector number. So sector 2 is in block 0, sector 14 is in block 1, sector 55 is in block 6, etc. Of course you have to adjust the sector from starting at the begining of disk to starting at the begining of the partition, so check the start location of the partition using fdisk -lu to get the sector the partition starts on, and subtract that from the physical sector number. So if your sector number was 123456789 and your partition starts at sector 240000, you would get sector 123216789 on the partition which would then be block 15402098 on the partition (and hence of the filesystem). icheck 15402098 in debugfs on the partition should then hopefully give you which inode number is using that block (and hence sector). Then use ncheck with the inode number to get a list of paths which refer to that inode number. This should hopefully find the file you are dealing with. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 20:20:39 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:20:39 -0500 Subject: files and disk sectors In-Reply-To: <20090204190016.GX26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> <20090204190016.GX26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1233778840.6122.287.camel@localhost> thanks colin and lennart, On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 14:00 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 01:44:33PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > > while i'm thinking about this, is there a way to tell which files sit on > > a particular disk sector? something is accessing the bad sector on my > > disk over and over again, presumably reading a config file or something; > > if i could move that file to another sector things might get better for > > me. > > just to clarify, this is an ext3 fs on /dev/sda5 > Try debugfs (in read only mode and with the filesystem mounted readonly) > and use icheck to find the inode number using the block (mapping block > to sector is going to be a different problem). > > Often the block size is 4k, but you can check with tune2fs -l on the > device. If it is 4k, well then your block number would be 1/8th of the > sector number. So sector 2 is in block 0, sector 14 is in block 1, > sector 55 is in block 6, etc. tune2fs shows block size of 4096 = 4k. dmesg gives this error: [231699.913878] end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 293198250 so my first pass would be to call this block 36649781. > > Of course you have to adjust the sector from starting at the begining of > disk to starting at the begining of the partition, so check the start > location of the partition using fdisk -lu to get the sector the > partition starts on, and subtract that from the physical sector number. > > So if your sector number was 123456789 and your partition starts at > sector 240000, you would get sector 123216789 on the partition which > would then be block 15402098 on the partition (and hence of the > filesystem). icheck 15402098 in debugfs on the partition should then > hopefully give you which inode number is using that block (and hence > sector). Then use ncheck with the inode number to get a list of paths > which refer to that inode number. This should hopefully find the file > you are dealing with. fdisk -lu gives: Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 63 465884 232911 83 Linux /dev/sda2 465885 61898444 30716280 83 Linux /dev/sda3 61898445 133580474 35841015 83 Linux /dev/sda4 133580475 488392064 177405795 5 Extended /dev/sda5 133580538 484295489 175357476 83 Linux ^ start of bad partition /dev/sda6 484295553 488392064 2048256 82 Linux swap / so do i want (293198250+133580538)/8= 53347348 ? or rather (293198250-133580538)/8=19952214 ? at first i thought you meant the former but the latter seems to make more sense, and also groups the bad sector nicely in with my other bad sectors, which is kinda comforting. currently running debugfs with the latter number, the first number gave me: 53347348 but this one is taking forever -- hanging on the dead sector no doubt -- so thought i'd send this off without waiting for the outcome (esp in case my machine goes belly-up in the interim...) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 4 21:14:56 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:14:56 -0500 Subject: Debian question - stuck between sid and experimental on gnome Message-ID: <20090204161456.33ccfefc.tleslie@tcn.net> i am evailing sabayon/gentoo and now sidux/debian, i wanted to go with a constantly updaing distro, that doesnt have fixed release cycle (that is just so BAD), and as cool as gentoo is (and sabayon), if i can get what I want out of debian, and then still benifit in certain areas from the ubuntu community (resources), that might be my best bet .. but I am just so feed up with disto release cycles, and fixed release cycles, and debian "sid" might be "the answer", (i definitely dont mind weekly software updates (that i choose), in fact there kinda fun, plus picking selectively from unstable, and even experimental, and hopefully being able to back out, but i will backup my own stable mixture just to be sure), so I have a question regarding package management for debian, that i am sure one of the many debian users on this list might know the answer, i installed sidux, to get me "sid" and i have installed some stuff from "experimental" repo. and of course stuff from the main "sid" unstable repo (by default), now i want gnome 2.24.1 the sid is 2.22.2~5 and the experimental is 2.24.2~2 but i would like 2.24.1 now I could survive with 2.22.2 but i know there will be times when i want something more bleeding edge then whats in 'sid' but not as bleeding edge and perhaps totally broken as is in "experimental" repo. how can i selectively grab 2.24.1 ? now this might be a bad example, because maybe debian never packaged ".deb" the 2.24.1 version, but even if that is the case (with this gnome example), it certainly would popup up with other packages, where one would want to grab that version thats "in the middle". I read something about a lock feature in aptitude, to not allow a update to something you fix/lock to a certain version, but in this case I don't want to do that. any ideas? i know i could tar ball ./configure/make it, but.... would be better to do it purely through apt ? to keep things happy? # sid (unstable) (gnome): The GNOME Desktop Environment, with extra components 1:2.22.2~5: all # experimental (gnome): The GNOME Desktop Environment, with extra components 1:2.24.2~2: all thanks, -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 00:54:22 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 00:54:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: router (OpenBSD) for Linuxcaffe and not only Message-ID: Just found this. I don't know if it works or how well (will be tortured in VirtualBox later). Bu there is no Canadian mirror ?! http://www.alti.at/knowhow/obsdlivecd/fw.php#four (firewall distro runs off of iso cd or usb stick - can store data on second usb stick - has squid, pf the works) Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 02:14:45 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:14:45 -0500 Subject: Windows 7 will kill Linux on netbooks -- NOT!! Message-ID: <498A4B95.3020502@telly.org> To anyone who was bothered by the ZD story "Windows kicks Linux to the curb", (http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=379) suggesting that the arrival of Windows 7 would close the window of opportunity for Linux on desktops -- and specifically netbooks... I have sources that suggest that MS will want netbook vendors to pay 50% more for Windows 7 per system than they now pay for XP. And in return, they'll get a crippled version of Windows 7 that will only be able to run three programs simultaneously: http://www.liliputing.com/2009/02/microsoft-to-offer-crippled-version-of-windows-7-for-netbooks.html In other words, Microsoft may be playing its own part to keep Linux very much alive on netbooks. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 02:53:48 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:53:48 -0500 Subject: Windows 7 will kill Linux on netbooks -- NOT!! In-Reply-To: <498A4B95.3020502-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <498A4B95.3020502@telly.org> Message-ID: <498A54BC.8060401@alteeve.com> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > To anyone who was bothered by the ZD story "Windows kicks Linux to the > curb", (http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=379) suggesting that the > arrival of Windows 7 would close the window of opportunity for Linux on > desktops -- and specifically netbooks... > > I have sources that suggest that MS will want netbook vendors to pay 50% > more for Windows 7 per system than they now pay for XP. And in return, > they'll get a crippled version of Windows 7 that will only be able to > run three programs simultaneously: > http://www.liliputing.com/2009/02/microsoft-to-offer-crippled-version-of-windows-7-for-netbooks.html > > > In other words, Microsoft may be playing its own part to keep Linux very > much alive on netbooks. > > - Evan The mainstream success of Linux should not, and I hope will not, ride on the fates of Microsoft. Anyone interested in the long term success of Linux needs to think more about how to make Linux as a collective better for Jane and Joe User. That's it. Heck, I hope MS and Apple keep on doing well. It will keep us on our toes. :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 03:43:53 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 22:43:53 -0500 Subject: Windows 7 will kill Linux on netbooks -- NOT!! In-Reply-To: <498A4B95.3020502-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <498A4B95.3020502@telly.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > To anyone who was bothered by the ZD story "Windows kicks Linux to the > curb", (http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=379) suggesting that the arrival > of Windows 7 would close the window of opportunity for Linux on desktops -- > and specifically netbooks... These sorts of tales don't bother me much at all. To my mind, the fact that someone feels a need to write this propaganda^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hstory in the first place is a demonstration that there's some *un*truth to it. The nature of news, these days, is more a mix of entertainment and propaganda than anything that can be straightforwardly called "fact." TV is particularly bad this way. > I have sources that suggest that MS will want netbook vendors to pay 50% > more for Windows 7 per system than they now pay for XP. And in return, > they'll get a crippled version of Windows 7 that will only be able to run > three programs simultaneously: > http://www.liliputing.com/2009/02/microsoft-to-offer-crippled-version-of-windows-7-for-netbooks.html > > In other words, Microsoft may be playing its own part to keep Linux very > much alive on netbooks. I saw another story (which may have its own aspects of fable!) that suggested a somewhat opposite view that seemed plausibly reasonable, effectively that Vista's failure has pressed people towards Linux that weren't *really* ready for the degree of change that a move to Linux properly involves. Using Linux well involves fairly different processes (cultural, technological, social, and otherwise) than are involved in using Windows well. (A snide remark might involve the notion that "using Windows well" must involve propelling through a window from a high altitude; I'll dismiss that as pointlessly mean...) Trying to migrate, and failing, due to a lack of preparedness, isn't necessarily helpful to "Linux adoption by the wide masses." But I'm in the "class" that isn't sure that attracting "wide masses" of the mainstream is necessarily a wonderful thing. I have considerable sympathy for Tom Christiansen's observation: "Windows was designed to keep the idiots away from Unix so we could hack in peace. Let's not break that." The Vista project team seems to have gone out of their way to break that! :-) Of course, Apple has a considerable amount to answer for, too! :-) -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Gilda Radner - "Adopted kids are such a pain - you have to teach them how to look like you." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 04:08:49 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 23:08:49 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS Message-ID: This is mighty interesting... http://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.Asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=PW-%24%24EE-015-18733&FED_ONLY=0&hcode=Au64x22Vv9pVNE3IKtFp3Q%3d%3d -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Calvin Trillin - "Health food makes me sick." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 04:34:29 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 23:34:29 -0500 Subject: Windows 7 will kill Linux on netbooks -- NOT!! In-Reply-To: <498A54BC.8060401-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <498A4B95.3020502@telly.org> <498A54BC.8060401@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <498A6C55.9040301@rogers.com> Madison Kelly wrote: > > The mainstream success of Linux should not, and I hope will not, ride on > the fates of Microsoft. Anyone interested in the long term success of > Linux needs to think more about how to make Linux as a collective better > for Jane and Joe User. That's it. Heck, I hope MS and Apple keep on > doing well. It will keep us on our toes. :) > To a certain extent, I agree with you but I also think that it has been a failing of the Linux community not to capitalize on Microsoft's missteps. I think that the download of Windows 7 beta by the masses could provide another opportunity for us to publicize the virtues of Linux. It occurred to me and I'm sure that it occurred to the marketing droids at Microsoft that the vast majority of those downloaders will grudgingly pay a not insubstantial fee to continue using Windows 7 past the beta's stated expiry date instead of having to migrate back to Vista or XP. I can also envisage Microsoft charging a similar fee for the release candidate and for the final version. In the tough economic situation we all current face, it shouldn't be all that hard to convince some of those folks to switch to linux instead. Microsoft: the gift that keeps on costing John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 12:10:48 2009 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 07:10:48 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> Christopher Browne wrote: > This is mighty interesting... yes, so VERY interesting.. it BEGS a response, of only to insists the clarification of the term. I have never heard "No Charge Software" used, and while it MIGHT mean Free Libre, it could also include 100% discounted, the-first-hit-is-free, proprietary software. Should we respond as a community group ? a software professionals group or a raft of individual software enthusiasts, or ALL of the above ? or should we blow it off ? djp > > http://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.Asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=PW-%24%24EE-015-18733&FED_ONLY=0&hcode=Au64x22Vv9pVNE3IKtFp3Q%3d%3d > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 12:31:42 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 07:31:42 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: <498AD748.8060304-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> Reading further it specifically states FLOSS software, so I'd suggest that we craft a response together. It also appears that they are looking for reasons to buy FLOSS. Worth a shot, but I think the response should be placed in the public domain somehow. Dave On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:10 AM, David J Patrick wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: > >> This is mighty interesting... >> > yes, so VERY interesting.. it BEGS a response, of only to insists the > clarification of the term. I have never heard "No Charge Software" used, and > while it MIGHT mean Free Libre, it could also include 100% discounted, > the-first-hit-is-free, proprietary software. > > Should we respond as a community group ? a software professionals group or > a raft of individual software enthusiasts, or ALL of the above ? > > or should we blow it off ? > > djp > >> >> >> http://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.Asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=PW-%24%24EE-015-18733&FED_ONLY=0&hcode=Au64x22Vv9pVNE3IKtFp3Q%3d%3d >> >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 13:50:40 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 08:50:40 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: <498AD748.8060304-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0902050550k2908020m23ec0b6117f1132c@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:10 AM, David J Patrick wrote: > Christopher Browne wrote: >> >> This is mighty interesting... > > yes, so VERY interesting.. it BEGS a response, of only to insists the > clarification of the term. I have never heard "No Charge Software" used, and > while it MIGHT mean Free Libre, it could also include 100% discounted, > the-first-hit-is-free, proprietary software. > > Should we respond as a community group ? a software professionals group or a > raft of individual software enthusiasts, or ALL of the above ? > > or should we blow it off ? > I'm inclined to believe that the more responses ("ALL of the above" option), the better - as long as they're thought out and informative. That said I think it might be worth discussing for a few days on-list and then crafting a community response. Individuals and SMB/Enterprise/Non-Profit business leaders can then modify/add information specific to their positions. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 17:05:51 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:05:51 -0500 Subject: files and disk sectors In-Reply-To: <1233778840.6122.287.camel@localhost> References: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> <20090204190016.GX26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1233778840.6122.287.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090205170551.GY26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 03:20:39PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > thanks colin and lennart, > > On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 14:00 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 01:44:33PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > > > while i'm thinking about this, is there a way to tell which files sit on > > > a particular disk sector? something is accessing the bad sector on my > > > disk over and over again, presumably reading a config file or something; > > > if i could move that file to another sector things might get better for > > > me. > > > > > just to clarify, this is an ext3 fs on /dev/sda5 > > > Try debugfs (in read only mode and with the filesystem mounted readonly) > > and use icheck to find the inode number using the block (mapping block > > to sector is going to be a different problem). > > > > Often the block size is 4k, but you can check with tune2fs -l on the > > device. If it is 4k, well then your block number would be 1/8th of the > > sector number. So sector 2 is in block 0, sector 14 is in block 1, > > sector 55 is in block 6, etc. > > tune2fs shows block size of 4096 = 4k. dmesg gives this error: > [231699.913878] end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 293198250 > > so my first pass would be to call this block 36649781. Right, except you have to subtract the start sector of the partition first to convert to a partition sector number rather than a physical disk sector number. > > Of course you have to adjust the sector from starting at the begining of > > disk to starting at the begining of the partition, so check the start > > location of the partition using fdisk -lu to get the sector the > > partition starts on, and subtract that from the physical sector number. > > > > So if your sector number was 123456789 and your partition starts at > > sector 240000, you would get sector 123216789 on the partition which > > would then be block 15402098 on the partition (and hence of the > > filesystem). icheck 15402098 in debugfs on the partition should then > > hopefully give you which inode number is using that block (and hence > > sector). Then use ncheck with the inode number to get a list of paths > > which refer to that inode number. This should hopefully find the file > > you are dealing with. > > fdisk -lu gives: > Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System > /dev/sda1 63 465884 232911 83 Linux > /dev/sda2 465885 61898444 30716280 83 Linux > /dev/sda3 61898445 133580474 35841015 83 Linux > /dev/sda4 133580475 488392064 177405795 5 Extended > /dev/sda5 133580538 484295489 175357476 83 Linux > ^ start of bad partition > > /dev/sda6 484295553 488392064 2048256 82 Linux swap / > > so do i want (293198250+133580538)/8= 53347348 ? or rather > (293198250-133580538)/8=19952214 ? at first i thought you meant the > former but the latter seems to make more sense, and also groups the bad > sector nicely in with my other bad sectors, which is kinda comforting. > currently running debugfs with the latter number, the first number gave No you subtract. If sector 293198250 is the problem, and your partition starts at 133580538, then the sector is number 159617712 in the partition, and hence block 19952214. After all sector 159617712 on a partition starting with 133580538 would be sector 293198250 from the beginning of the disk. > me: > 53347348 > but this one is taking forever -- hanging on the dead sector no doubt -- > so thought i'd send this off without waiting for the outcome (esp in > case my machine goes belly-up in the interim...) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 17:06:59 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:06:59 -0500 Subject: Debian question - stuck between sid and experimental on gnome In-Reply-To: <20090204161456.33ccfefc.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <20090204161456.33ccfefc.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20090205170659.GZ26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 04:14:56PM -0500, ted leslie wrote: > i am evailing sabayon/gentoo and now sidux/debian, > i wanted to go with a constantly updaing distro, that doesnt have fixed release cycle (that is just so BAD), > and as cool as gentoo is (and sabayon), if i can get what I want out of debian, and then still benifit > in certain areas from the ubuntu community (resources), that might be my best bet .. but I am > just so feed up with disto release cycles, and fixed release cycles, and debian "sid" might be "the answer", > (i definitely dont mind weekly software updates (that i choose), in fact there kinda fun, plus picking selectively from unstable, and > even experimental, and hopefully being able to back out, but i will backup my own stable mixture just to be sure), > so I have a question regarding package management for debian, > that i am sure one of the many debian users on this list might know the answer, > > i installed sidux, to get me "sid" > and i have installed some stuff from "experimental" repo. > and of course stuff from the main "sid" unstable repo (by default), > now i want gnome 2.24.1 > the sid is 2.22.2~5 > and the experimental is > 2.24.2~2 > > but i would like 2.24.1 > > now I could survive with 2.22.2 but i know there will be times when i want something > more bleeding edge then whats in 'sid' but not as bleeding edge and perhaps totally broken > as is in "experimental" repo. > > how can i selectively grab 2.24.1 ? > now this might be a bad example, because maybe debian never packaged ".deb" the 2.24.1 version, > but even if that is the case (with this gnome example), it certainly would popup up > with other packages, where one would want to grab that version thats "in the middle". > I read something about a lock feature in aptitude, to not allow a update to something you > fix/lock to a certain version, but in this case I don't want to do that. > > any ideas? > > i know i could tar ball ./configure/make it, but.... would be better to do it purely through apt ? to keep > things happy? > > > # sid (unstable) (gnome): The GNOME Desktop Environment, with extra components > 1:2.22.2~5: all > # experimental (gnome): The GNOME Desktop Environment, with extra components > 1:2.24.2~2: all apt-get install -t experimental gnome or apt-get install gnome=1:2.24.2~2 I am sure the debian developers would tell you that you have no business playing with experimental if you didn't already know that. :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 17:10:30 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:10:30 -0500 Subject: Teksavvy users? Message-ID: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> Anyone here get their internet service through Teksavvy? I noticed recently that the "rwhois" info on my IP has my full contact info, and was wondering if it's a normal thing or just the way my account is configured. Does anyone else get this when doing a "whois" on their home IP's? - TJA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 17:23:28 2009 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:23:28 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system Message-ID: Good day! I'm a web developer. One of my former clients called me this morning asking about a problem they would like solved, that I feel is a tad over my head. I'm hoping that the combined wisdom of this list can help solve it! The client currently has a system whereby one group produces original documents using MS Word. Those documents are then fed to a variety of sources, ultimately becoming PDFs and Web pages. They currently use a product called Transit which handles the conversion. However, there's a great deal of signal loss during the translation -- these are fairly complicated documents, with each page containing both English and French versions of the text. Ultimately, the people responsible for posting these documents in their respective formats, especially the web version, have to do a lot of post-processing. And the final published results contain errors. My advice to the client was that, if they moved away from Word, they would be taking a great deal of uncertainty out of the equation. I mentioned either LaTeX or some other kind of customized XML-based solution as a way to circumvent these format transition issues. The goal being to work with plain text rather than an opaque file format. The situation is complicated by the fact that we've got a current workflow that is run by many people, any of whom may not be comfortable with a change in technology. However, it appears the organization is more willing to run that gauntlet than they have in the past. My vision looks like this: 1. Content authors produce LaTeX using some undisclosed tool on Windows. These folks would need to be trained to work against a template. 2. A transformation turns that latex doc into a PDF and a nicely- formatted HTML/CSS document. 3. Profit!!! This strikes me as a non-trivial project. I've worked with LaTeX a little bit, but not enough to handle this project. I think this client needs someone for whom LaTeX is their bitch, to put it bluntly. That person would create the templates and recommend the tools to be used. I'm not this person. :-) Anyone who feels they could accomplish this, I'd love to hear from. I've asked the client if they would like to meet such a person, and he enthusiastically agreed. This could turn into a nice consulting gig, who knows? Any suggestions or alternative approaches are welcome. Cheers! Aaron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 18:07:27 2009 From: gargamel.su-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (jing) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:07:27 -0500 Subject: Teksavvy users? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Anyone here get their internet service through Teksavvy? I noticed > recently that the "rwhois" info on my IP has my full contact info, and > was wondering if it's a normal thing or just the way my account is > configured. > > Does anyone else get this when doing a "whois" on their home IP's? I did a lookup on my home IP on ARIN.NET and all I get is Teksavvy's info. No personal info shown. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 18:13:14 2009 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:13:14 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> Aaron Vegh wrote: > Good day! > I'm a web developer. One of my former clients called me this morning > asking about a problem they would like solved, that I feel is a tad over > my head. I'm hoping that the combined wisdom of this list can help solve > it! > > The client currently has a system whereby one group produces original > documents using MS Word. Those documents are then fed to a variety of > sources, ultimately becoming PDFs and Web pages. This one seems like a no-brainer; openoffice.org. M$Word users switching to OpenOffice may not even notice, and PDF output is built-in. M$Word user switching to LaTeX will moan and howl and gnash their teeth, cursing whoever made them use this *^%%$*%^ thing. (yes, LeTeX or Lyx is a superior publishing solution, but it demands a new metaphor; WYSIWYM vs. WYSIWYG) OO.o will also happily spit out .html. As a bonus, Word <---> OO.o conversions are 95% seamless (although your complicated documents may get somewhat mangled. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 18:19:27 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:19:27 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <498B2C3A.6030900-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <20090205181927.GA26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 01:13:14PM -0500, David J Patrick wrote: > This one seems like a no-brainer; openoffice.org. > M$Word users switching to OpenOffice may not even notice, and PDF output > is built-in. M$Word user switching to LaTeX will moan and howl and gnash > their teeth, cursing whoever made them use this *^%%$*%^ thing. (yes, > LeTeX or Lyx is a superior publishing solution, but it demands a new > metaphor; WYSIWYM vs. WYSIWYG) OO.o will also happily spit out .html. As > a bonus, Word <---> OO.o conversions are 95% seamless (although your > complicated documents may get somewhat mangled. Many word users will also hate openoffice, because of its many flaws and bugs. Openoffice is not word. Far from it. The PDF and html output from openoffice are also not always that great. For large systems and scalability and consistency, latex or docbook xml or similar is really the only way to go. Where I work we are moving to a docbook system which I believe will have a web interface as well at some point. We were using openoffice and word (different between products. The ones done by developers running windows were done in word, while those of us doing linux development used openoffice). Going to docbook with stylesheets is much more scalable than using a word processor. A word processor's job is to let an amateur create pretty documents. It is not a tool for creating real documents and publishing them. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 18:23:28 2009 From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Plumber Bob) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:23:28 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Aaron Vegh wrote: > > My advice to the client was that, if they moved away from Word, they would > be taking a great deal of uncertainty out of the equation. I mentioned > either LaTeX or some other kind of customized XML-based solution as a way to > circumvent these format transition issues. The goal being to work with plain > text rather than an opaque file format. > I happen to be in the midst of migrating a 300-ish page document from Open Office to DocBook(v5) XML and rendering it with a very beta Apache Tomcat-based application named "Calenco" http://trac.calenco.com/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/calenco/ I haven't yet solved the problem of migrating Word / OO users to another friendly program that can edit DocBook XML, and I'm using emacs for the time being. Having said that, I've already received edits to the XML from programmers, and hallelujah, I can use "diff"! DocBook v5 uses Uncode, so we expect multi-language translation to be more straightforward than using LateX. So far, I'm quite happy with multi-HTML and PDF output, complete with auto-TOC, indices, and embedded linking. This whole effort is very much in progress, but for example, if I discover that Apache FOP (which renders the PDF) isn't capable of doing something (Aramaic, perhaps), then there are other tools that can be inserted to that spot in the rendering toolchain. Imagine: treating documentation like software. Heresy! Cheers, Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 18:16:09 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:16:09 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498B2CE9.6080304@gmail.com> Once i had a somewhat similar problem. I used LaTeX. However, with LaTeX things are not quite trivial always. While my solution worked, I think a better one exists around, which I somewhat explored but not implemented. The latest versions of OpenOffice (guess versions later than 2.3) allow to run a lot of ooffice commands from terminal window. And even more: it is possible to run ooffice as a service (server). And ooffice handles document conversion quite nicely (of course, depending on complexity of document and the format of the original one). Hope this helps. zb. Aaron Vegh wrote: > Good day! > I'm a web developer. One of my former clients called me this morning > asking about a problem they would like solved, that I feel is a tad > over my head. I'm hoping that the combined wisdom of this list can > help solve it! > > The client currently has a system whereby one group produces original > documents using MS Word. Those documents are then fed to a variety of > sources, ultimately becoming PDFs and Web pages. They currently use a > product called Transit which handles the conversion. However, there's > a great deal of signal loss during the translation -- these are fairly > complicated documents, with each page containing both English and > French versions of the text. Ultimately, the people responsible for > posting these documents in their respective formats, especially the > web version, have to do a lot of post-processing. And the final > published results contain errors. > > My advice to the client was that, if they moved away from Word, they > would be taking a great deal of uncertainty out of the equation. I > mentioned either LaTeX or some other kind of customized XML-based > solution as a way to circumvent these format transition issues. The > goal being to work with plain text rather than an opaque file format. > > The situation is complicated by the fact that we've got a current > workflow that is run by many people, any of whom may not be > comfortable with a change in technology. However, it appears the > organization is more willing to run that gauntlet than they have in > the past. > > My vision looks like this: > > 1. Content authors produce LaTeX using some undisclosed tool on > Windows. These folks would need to be trained to work against a template. > 2. A transformation turns that latex doc into a PDF and a > nicely-formatted HTML/CSS document. > 3. Profit!!! > > This strikes me as a non-trivial project. I've worked with LaTeX a > little bit, but not enough to handle this project. I think this client > needs someone for whom LaTeX is their bitch, to put it bluntly. That > person would create the templates and recommend the tools to be used. > I'm not this person. :-) > > Anyone who feels they could accomplish this, I'd love to hear from. > I've asked the client if they would like to meet such a person, and he > enthusiastically agreed. This could turn into a nice consulting gig, > who knows? > > Any suggestions or alternative approaches are welcome. > > Cheers! > Aaron. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 18:24:52 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:24:52 -0500 Subject: Teksavvy users? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090205182452.GA13399@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 12:10:30PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: >Anyone here get their internet service through Teksavvy? I noticed >recently that the "rwhois" info on my IP has my full contact info, and >was wondering if it's a normal thing or just the way my account is >configured. > >Does anyone else get this when doing a "whois" on their home IP's? > Nope, just Teksavvy info. I bet they'd want to know if they were broadcasting your personal info. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 18:34:49 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:34:49 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090205183449.GA13452@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 12:23:28PM -0500, Aaron Vegh wrote: > 1. Content authors produce LaTeX using some undisclosed tool on Windows. > These folks would need to be trained to work against a template. > 2. A transformation turns that latex doc into a PDF and a nicely- > formatted HTML/CSS document. > 3. Profit!!! I agree with David that straight LaTeX is going to cause growing pains. OpenOffice will give you intermediate methods that you may find helpful, like DocBook. Similarly, something like FrameMaker is a proprietary document creation tool that is commonly used in the industry. While I grant that the "problem" is that you need good, accurate, automatic replication of your documents across several formats, the ultimate success of the project will be determined by which tool people use up front, and whether they feel like it does what they need. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 18:54:40 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:54:40 -0500 Subject: files and disk sectors In-Reply-To: <20090205170551.GY26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> <20090204190016.GX26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1233778840.6122.287.camel@localhost> <20090205170551.GY26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1233860080.6122.2991.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-02-05 at 12:05 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 03:20:39PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > > so do i want (293198250+133580538)/8= 53347348 ? or rather > > (293198250-133580538)/8=19952214 ? at first i thought you meant the > > former but the latter seems to make more sense, and also groups the bad > > sector nicely in with my other bad sectors, which is kinda comforting. > > currently running debugfs with the latter number, the first number gave > > No you subtract. If sector 293198250 is the problem, and your partition > starts at 133580538, then the sector is number 159617712 in the > partition, and hence block 19952214. After all sector 159617712 on a > partition starting with 133580538 would be sector 293198250 from the > beginning of the disk. > did this, and turns out firefox 3.0's places.sqlite was located on the bad sector. deleted it and it regenerated elsewhere on disk -- and lo and behold, firefox now runs about 50 times faster than before, and my drive isn't constantly freezing up. life is _so_ much better than it was! thanks, matt > > me: > > 53347348 -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 19:55:04 2009 From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:55:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Dave Cramer wrote: > Reading further it specifically states FLOSS software, so I'd > suggest that we craft a response together. > > It also appears that they are looking for reasons to buy FLOSS.? > Worth a shot, but I think the response should be placed in the > public domain somehow. FWIW, I know for a fact that Microsoft has (not surprisingly) already downloaded that RFI, and there's only one thing Microsoft is going to try to do with it -- make a case as to why open source is a bad idea. Quite simply, they're going to try to fuck things up, the way they always do. You've been warned. rday -- ======================================================================== Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry: Have classroom, will lecture. http://crashcourse.ca Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA ======================================================================== From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 20:01:56 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:01:56 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090205200156.GB26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 01:23:28PM -0500, Plumber Bob wrote: > I happen to be in the midst of migrating a 300-ish page document from > Open Office to DocBook(v5) XML and rendering it with a very beta > Apache Tomcat-based application named "Calenco" > > http://trac.calenco.com/ > http://sourceforge.net/projects/calenco/ > > I haven't yet solved the problem of migrating Word / OO users to > another friendly program that can edit DocBook XML, and I'm using > emacs for the time being. Having said that, I've already received > edits to the XML from programmers, and hallelujah, I can use "diff"! I thought you were going to do the job of being the "friendly program" for us users. :) > DocBook v5 uses Uncode, so we expect multi-language translation to be > more straightforward than using LateX. So far, I'm quite happy with > multi-HTML and PDF output, complete with auto-TOC, indices, and > embedded linking. > > This whole effort is very much in progress, but for example, if I > discover that Apache FOP (which renders the PDF) isn't capable of > doing something (Aramaic, perhaps), then there are other tools that > can be inserted to that spot in the rendering toolchain. > > Imagine: treating documentation like software. Heresy! Better than treating it like something brand new every time you have to update a document. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 20:03:46 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:03:46 -0500 Subject: files and disk sectors In-Reply-To: <1233860080.6122.2991.camel@localhost> References: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> <20090204190016.GX26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1233778840.6122.287.camel@localhost> <20090205170551.GY26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1233860080.6122.2991.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090205200346.GC26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 01:54:40PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > did this, and turns out firefox 3.0's places.sqlite was located on the > bad sector. deleted it and it regenerated elsewhere on disk -- and lo > and behold, firefox now runs about 50 times faster than before, and my > drive isn't constantly freezing up. life is _so_ much better than it > was! thanks, Excellent. Good to know I still remember the right tools. Imagine if you had to guess the file by yourself. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 19:51:20 2009 From: phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org (phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:51:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <20090205181927.GA26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090205181927.GA26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4416.173.34.8.54.1233863480.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> > A word processor's job is to let an amateur create pretty documents. It > is not a tool for creating real documents and publishing them. I'd put this differently. We use the OO word processor for short documents (letters, invoices, datasheets) and it works well. We use Latex for longer documents or documents that contain a lot of math. So the right tool depends on the job. In my experience word processors do not scale well to large documents, but they can be used as a publishing tool for simple documents such as a two-page data sheet. Using Latex to write a letter is like using a chop saw on balsa wood. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 5 23:57:54 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:57:54 -0500 Subject: Flex Builder 3 with Eclipse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498B7D02.9010607@gmail.com> Anyone around using this sh*t? It looks like that there are problems. An example: http://www.tekool.net/blog/2008/06/28/flex-builder-3-plugin-dont-work-with-eclipse-34/ Actually, I am impressed by the work Adobe did. Their mxml looks like a wonder weapon. How many people know however how to use it? All these flash embeddings have the future and we (as web developers) can not avoid going into that direction. However, even though Adobe makes great afford that things are working right away -they must fail. Why? Well... their code is closed in fact, not available to the public. As such, we remain on their mercy. So not so many people know what is going on around. Fixing problems takes ages. And indeed there seems to be a lot of problems. Even such a simple thing, as instructions (that would work) how to start working with flash projects in Flex Builder are... I think.. simply.. stupidly missing.. I want to try all this, on Eclipse. Please if anyone is successful with using these toys, let me know, perhaps privately. zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 02:34:22 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:34:22 -0500 Subject: Teksavvy users? In-Reply-To: <20090205182452.GA13399-dS67q9zC6oM7y9Lc2D0nHSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090205182452.GA13399@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902051834n54f89c3n4ad159a3bbac6aad@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps it only applies if you have a fixed IP/subnet? The response I got from TekSavvy was the following: ---- Apologies on the delay. I've checked with the admins, and the RWHOIS data is a requirement of ARIN (essentially, the IP authority), which is why the information is on there. ---- I've never heard of such a thing. And according to ARIN 4.2.3.7.6, they don't need MY info on there. I'd rather not have anyone on the internet have my full name+address associable with my IP.... On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:24 PM, William O'Higgins Witteman wrote: > On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 12:10:30PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: >>Anyone here get their internet service through Teksavvy? I noticed >>recently that the "rwhois" info on my IP has my full contact info, and >>was wondering if it's a normal thing or just the way my account is >>configured. >> >>Does anyone else get this when doing a "whois" on their home IP's? >> > > Nope, just Teksavvy info. I bet they'd want to know if they were > broadcasting your personal info. > -- > > yours, > > William > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFJiy70HQtmiuz+KT8RAshhAKCmfkCZBnuXQ5dzuJ0lfO4vsv4EzQCfUTBR > ylicgKJxOpTEoO2BMzfle7U= > =U2V5 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 02:47:48 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:47:48 -0500 Subject: Teksavvy users? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902051834n54f89c3n4ad159a3bbac6aad-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090205182452.GA13399@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <3a97ef0902051834n54f89c3n4ad159a3bbac6aad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090206024748.GA15174@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 09:34:22PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: >Perhaps it only applies if you have a fixed IP/subnet? The response I >got from TekSavvy was the following: I too, have a fixed IP, but no personal info associated with it. >---- >Apologies on the delay. I've checked with the admins, and the RWHOIS data is a >requirement of ARIN (essentially, the IP authority), which is why the >information >is on there. >---- That seems not so true... I am generally very happy with Teksavvy, but this is not very cool. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From scott-VK/PCEBaDz+N9aS15agKxg at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 02:26:46 2009 From: scott-VK/PCEBaDz+N9aS15agKxg at public.gmane.org (Scott C. Ripley) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:26:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Flex Builder 3 with Eclipse In-Reply-To: <498B7D02.9010607-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <498B7D02.9010607@gmail.com> Message-ID: i downloaded the Adobe Flex 3 Builder (trial) software: http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/ and used the following as a starting point: http://examples.adobe.com/flex3/componentexplorer/explorer.html referencing the tutorials/lanuage reference as required: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/ http://livedocs.adobe.com/flex/3/langref/ (e-mail me if i can assist further...) On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Anyone around using this sh*t? It looks like that there are problems. An > example: > http://www.tekool.net/blog/2008/06/28/flex-builder-3-plugin-dont-work-with-eclipse-34/ > > Actually, I am impressed by the work Adobe did. Their mxml looks like a > wonder weapon. How many people know however how to use it? All these flash > embeddings have the future and we (as web developers) can not avoid going > into that direction. However, even though Adobe makes great afford that > things are working right away -they must fail. Why? Well... their code is > closed in fact, not available to the public. As such, we remain on their > mercy. So not so many people know what is going on around. Fixing problems > takes ages. And indeed there seems to be a lot of problems. Even such a > simple thing, as instructions (that would work) how to start working with > flash projects in Flex Builder are... I think.. simply.. stupidly missing.. > > I want to try all this, on Eclipse. > Please if anyone is successful with using these toys, let me know, perhaps > privately. > > zb. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Scott C. Ripley 416.738.6357 http://www.scottripley.com -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 03:36:58 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:36:58 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <498B2C3A.6030900-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> Message-ID: <20090205223658.5b7ffa09.hgibson@eol.ca> On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:13:14 -0500 David J Patrick wrote: > This one seems like a no-brainer; openoffice.org. > M$Word users switching to OpenOffice may not even notice, and PDF output > is built-in. M$Word user switching to LaTeX will moan and howl and gnash > their teeth, cursing whoever made them use this *^%%$*%^ thing. (yes, > LeTeX or Lyx is a superior publishing solution, but it demands a new > metaphor; WYSIWYM vs. WYSIWYG) OO.o will also happily spit out .html. As > a bonus, Word <---> OO.o conversions are 95% seamless (although your > complicated documents may get somewhat mangled. > djp David, Actually, users will notice. Open Office uses different line spacing than Word. If the user uses page breaks to format their documents, the conversion between Word and Open Office will be a mess. I am starting to write an article on style sheets, but I have not gotten very far. The style sheets of both Word and Open Office are powerful, but counterintuitive. Few people understand them. If you use them, conversions are seamless. Implementing Open Office, and training people on stylesheets is still a good option. It will cut down the complaints that will occur with LaTeX, and the skill will port nicely to MS Word. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 06:23:30 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 01:23:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Dave Cramer wrote: > Reading further it specifically states FLOSS software, so I'd suggest that > we craft a response together. > > It also appears that they are looking for reasons to buy FLOSS. Worth a > shot, but I think the response should be placed in the public domain > somehow. I expect large companies supporting OSS (such as IBM) are already working on their submissions. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 06:26:34 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 01:26:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teksavvy users? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902051834n54f89c3n4ad159a3bbac6aad-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090205182452.GA13399@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <3a97ef0902051834n54f89c3n4ad159a3bbac6aad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Tyler Aviss wrote: > I've never heard of such a thing. And according to ARIN 4.2.3.7.6, Agreed. The whois DB is supposed to contain technical & administrative contact information andd/or the owner. You are a client of the ISP who controls the address space. It is not yours and your name should not appear there. I'd raise this higher with Teksavvy. If you get no luck you may like to try the NANOG mailing list but explore other avenues first. Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 12:49:49 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 07:49:49 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 01:23:30AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > I expect large companies supporting OSS (such as IBM) are already > working on their submissions. IBM can be somewhat bipolar by offering Linux one moment and AIX the next. -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 13:46:34 2009 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 08:46:34 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <20090205223658.5b7ffa09.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090205223658.5b7ffa09.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <77C08E56-CB1A-4F40-9ED7-EFB4151E4317@gmail.com> Hi all, Thanks so far for your answers, both off- and on-list. I've been reviewing these responses and trying to wrap my head around this problem. Ultimately, I'm not looking to have a role in this project; ideally I'd like to find someone who I could feel comfortable introducing to my client, that can run with this problem. I have some concerns, however, with what I've read so far. 1. Substituting OO.o for MS Office doesn't strike me as a winning proposition. In my (albeit limited) use of the application, I've come away with the impression that while it may solve some issues, it will create others. In the end, the client will end up with different headaches altogether. 2. LaTeX or DocBook XML, while clearly a respected choice by this group, is also to be approached with great caution. The assumption being that non-technical users will balk at it. I get that, for sure. But I still wonder if, with the right template design, a LaTeX or DocBook expert couldn't put together a sample document, and arrange for training of the staff who will use this. I think once people saw this text-based file on the one hand, then saw a single command given and boom! instant, perfect HTML and PDF versions -- they would find that very persuasive. Perhaps persuasive enough to actually learn and use this thing. Let me be a bit more specific now. The client is the Ontario Legislature. They are required to produce "Hansards", verbatim transcripts of the proceedings of the legislature. These documents are published on their web site. Here's an example of a PDF of a recent legislative session: http://www.ontla.on.ca/house-proceedings/transcripts/files_pdf/29-JAN-2009_L108.pdf You'll note that the document is both quite long and features a fairly complicated layout, not to mention a large number of individual paragraph and character styles. There are also errors in the rendering of this document (for example, several blank pages). The original documents produced in Word are done with very specific Word styles, so I would say that the users are slightly above your average "non- technical". My thinking is that, any solution that requires post-processing is not adequate. They already have a system that has several idiosyncrasies, and exchanging that for another one (OO-based) is probably not going to be accepted. If there are any serious, knowledgeable advocates of a clean document creation pipeline, I'm looking forward to hearing from you. If you feel this can be done with OO without compromising the translation between formats, show me some examples using documents as complex as the kind at issue here! :-) Cheers, Aaron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 14:08:42 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:08:42 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <77C08E56-CB1A-4F40-9ED7-EFB4151E4317-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090205223658.5b7ffa09.hgibson@eol.ca> <77C08E56-CB1A-4F40-9ED7-EFB4151E4317@gmail.com> Message-ID: <491f66a50902060608o4e30e85i109f020dd95af2ef@mail.gmail.com> I'm not sure if you are looking for a document management system, or a document editing system. I found this very interesting though. http://www.alfresco.com/ Allows for collaborative editing, and management. Dave On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Aaron Vegh wrote: > Hi all, > Thanks so far for your answers, both off- and on-list. I've been reviewing > these responses and trying to wrap my head around this problem. Ultimately, > I'm not looking to have a role in this project; ideally I'd like to find > someone who I could feel comfortable introducing to my client, that can run > with this problem. I have some concerns, however, with what I've read so > far. > > 1. Substituting OO.o for MS Office doesn't strike me as a winning > proposition. In my (albeit limited) use of the application, I've come away > with the impression that while it may solve some issues, it will create > others. In the end, the client will end up with different headaches > altogether. > > 2. LaTeX or DocBook XML, while clearly a respected choice by this group, is > also to be approached with great caution. The assumption being that > non-technical users will balk at it. I get that, for sure. But I still > wonder if, with the right template design, a LaTeX or DocBook expert > couldn't put together a sample document, and arrange for training of the > staff who will use this. I think once people saw this text-based file on the > one hand, then saw a single command given and boom! instant, perfect HTML > and PDF versions -- they would find that very persuasive. Perhaps persuasive > enough to actually learn and use this thing. > > Let me be a bit more specific now. The client is the Ontario Legislature. > They are required to produce "Hansards", verbatim transcripts of the > proceedings of the legislature. These documents are published on their web > site. Here's an example of a PDF of a recent legislative session: > > > http://www.ontla.on.ca/house-proceedings/transcripts/files_pdf/29-JAN-2009_L108.pdf > > You'll note that the document is both quite long and features a fairly > complicated layout, not to mention a large number of individual paragraph > and character styles. There are also errors in the rendering of this > document (for example, several blank pages). The original documents produced > in Word are done with very specific Word styles, so I would say that the > users are slightly above your average "non-technical". > > My thinking is that, any solution that requires post-processing is not > adequate. They already have a system that has several idiosyncrasies, and > exchanging that for another one (OO-based) is probably not going to be > accepted. > > If there are any serious, knowledgeable advocates of a clean document > creation pipeline, I'm looking forward to hearing from you. If you feel this > can be done with OO without compromising the translation between formats, > show me some examples using documents as complex as the kind at issue here! > :-) > > Cheers, > Aaron. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 14:12:29 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:12:29 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <491f66a50902060608o4e30e85i109f020dd95af2ef-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090205223658.5b7ffa09.hgibson@eol.ca> <77C08E56-CB1A-4F40-9ED7-EFB4151E4317@gmail.com> <491f66a50902060608o4e30e85i109f020dd95af2ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498C454D.3040608@dinamis.com> Dave Cramer wrote: > I'm not sure if you are looking for a document management system, or a > document editing system. I found this very interesting though. > > http://www.alfresco.com/ > > Allows for collaborative editing, and management. I had exactly the same thought when I read the requirements. Any sufficiently complex process needs something like what Alfresco offers, though Alfresco is one of those "pretend to be Open Source to bask in its glow" products. Sure, there is an Open Source version but they deliberately cripple it to encourage people to sign up for the commercial version. I've used Plone and Nuxeo ECM for this purpose and both are FOSS and both have very sophisticated document transformation and workflow methods. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 14:18:04 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:18:04 -0500 Subject: files and disk sectors In-Reply-To: <20090205200346.GC26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> <20090204190016.GX26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1233778840.6122.287.camel@localhost> <20090205170551.GY26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1233860080.6122.2991.camel@localhost> <20090205200346.GC26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Sorensen, 2009/2/5 Lennart Sorensen > On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 01:54:40PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > > did this, and turns out firefox 3.0's places.sqlite was located on the > > bad sector. deleted it and it regenerated elsewhere on disk -- and lo > > and behold, firefox now runs about 50 times faster than before, and my > > drive isn't constantly freezing up. life is _so_ much better than it > > was! thanks, > > Excellent. Good to know I still remember the right tools. > > Imagine if you had to guess the file by yourself. > Got to say that is very impressive knowledge you displayed here. I was like, what the heck, that is way to neat. Wonder sharing how you came to accumulate this particular skill? I plan to play around with debugfs and see what I can master. Regards, William > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three. ?Alice Kahn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 14:34:39 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:34:39 -0500 Subject: files and disk sectors In-Reply-To: References: <1233762572.7751.1908.camel@localhost> <1233773073.6122.31.camel@localhost> <20090204190016.GX26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1233778840.6122.287.camel@localhost> <20090205170551.GY26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1233860080.6122.2991.camel@localhost> <20090205200346.GC26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090206143439.GD26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 09:18:04AM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > Got to say that is very impressive knowledge you displayed here. I was like, > what the heck, that is way to neat. Wonder sharing how you came to > accumulate this particular skill? I plan to play around with debugfs and > see what I can master. Well I just have to poke a bit at everything I encouter. I used debugfs to deal with a corrupted filesystem once, and found that it was a great tool for anything you needed to know the exact location of something. So a case like yours for example. After all finding block to file mappings seems like the kind of thing a filesystem debug tool should be able to do. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 14:37:50 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <4416.173.34.8.54.1233863480.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2DznVbVsZi4adLQS1dU2Lr@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090205181927.GA26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4416.173.34.8.54.1233863480.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <20090206143750.GE26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 02:51:20PM -0500, phiscock-g851W1bGYuGnS0EtXVNi6w at public.gmane.org wrote: > I'd put this differently. We use the OO word processor for short documents > (letters, invoices, datasheets) and it works well. We use Latex for longer > documents or documents that contain a lot of math. So the right tool > depends on the job. > > In my experience word processors do not scale well to large documents, but > they can be used as a publishing tool for simple documents such as a > two-page data sheet. Using Latex to write a letter is like using a chop > saw on balsa wood. I used latex to do my essays at university. Of course I only had an account on unix systems being in the math faculty doing CS, so I had no word processor. Latex (and tex in general) isn't really that hard to sue and you get to focus on writing your content and not really worrying about the layout because the layout will be 100% consistent and good looking. Latex looks scary, but I think most people highly overestimate the difficulty of using it. It fails at the instant gratification that a WYSIWYG tool gives you, but then again people were much more productice with wordperfect 5.1 with a text display than they are with word because they spend too much time playing with formating. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 14:40:53 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:40:53 -0500 Subject: Teksavvy users? In-Reply-To: References: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090205182452.GA13399@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <3a97ef0902051834n54f89c3n4ad159a3bbac6aad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902060640o7efe8549t92d1ecf464ed61ed@mail.gmail.com> I sent them this tidbit from ARIN, and it looks like they're going to be fixing it up to have their contact info now. ---- 4.2.3.7.6. Residential Customer Privacy To maintain the privacy of their residential customers, an organization with downstream residential customers may substitute that organization's name for the customer's name, e.g. 'Private Customer - XYZ Network', and the customer's street address may read 'Private Residence'. Each private downstream residential reassignment must have accurate upstream Abuse and Technical POCs visible on the WHOIS record for that block. ---- If my co-worker hadn't been done a WHOIS against an "odd IP" in our SSH logs (IP happened to be mine), I probably wouldn't have noticed this myself. Anyone else with a reserved netblock might want to make sure their personal info isn't in the rwhois (just "WHOIS" your IP in 'nix), unless of course you like junkmail and/or possible visits from odd internet denizens :-) - TJA On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 1:26 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Tyler Aviss wrote: > >> I've never heard of such a thing. And according to ARIN 4.2.3.7.6, > > Agreed. The whois DB is supposed to contain technical & administrative > contact information andd/or the owner. You are a client of the ISP who > controls the address space. It is not yours and your name should not appear > there. > > I'd raise this higher with Teksavvy. If you get no luck you may like to try > the NANOG mailing list but explore other avenues first. > > Rob > > -- > I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 14:45:48 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:45:48 -0500 Subject: Teksavvy users? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902060640o7efe8549t92d1ecf464ed61ed-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090205182452.GA13399@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <3a97ef0902051834n54f89c3n4ad159a3bbac6aad@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0902060640o7efe8549t92d1ecf464ed61ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498C4D1C.4030500@utoronto.ca> Tyler Aviss wrote: > I sent them this tidbit from ARIN, and it looks like they're going to > be fixing it up to have their contact info now. > > ---- > > 4.2.3.7.6. Residential Customer Privacy > > To maintain the privacy of their residential customers, an > organization with downstream residential customers may substitute that > organization's name for the customer's name, e.g. 'Private Customer - > XYZ Network', and the customer's street address may read 'Private > Residence'. Each private downstream residential reassignment must have > accurate upstream Abuse and Technical POCs visible on the WHOIS record > for that block. > > ---- > > If my co-worker hadn't been done a WHOIS against an "odd IP" in our > SSH logs (IP happened to be mine), I probably wouldn't have noticed > this myself. Anyone else with a reserved netblock might want to make > sure their personal info isn't in the rwhois (just "WHOIS" your IP in > 'nix), unless of course you like junkmail and/or possible visits from > odd internet denizens :-) Nice catch regardless. I have a single static IP with rdns set, so I guess they only publish those records if you have a netblock (of any size). Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 15:15:47 2009 From: djp-tnsZcVQxgqO2dHQpreyxbg at public.gmane.org (David J Patrick) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:15:47 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <20090206143750.GE26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090205181927.GA26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4416.173.34.8.54.1233863480.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20090206143750.GE26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <498C5423.1000604@linuxcaffe.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Latex (and tex in general) isn't really that hard to sue and you get to > focus on writing your content and not really worrying about the layout > because the layout will be 100% consistent and good looking. I certainly agree that a sharp division between content and style is likely to have more consistent output quality and that (once set up) will offer much less distraction to the writer. > > Latex looks scary, but I think most people highly overestimate the > difficulty of using it. It fails at the instant gratification that a > WYSIWYG tool gives you, but then again people were much more productice > with wordperfect 5.1 with a text display than they are with word because > they spend too much time playing with formating. anyone who was proficient with WP5.1 will probably pine for that level of productivity. Words are words, format is format. Gotta keep 'em separated. djp > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 15:29:29 2009 From: mggagne-oUREY1nl/XXQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Marcel Gagne) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:29:29 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system Message-ID: <200902061029.29995.mggagne@salmar.com> Finally! On Friday 06 February 2009 09:08:42 Dave Cramer wrote: > I'm not sure if you are looking for a document management system, or a > document editing system. I found this very interesting though. > > http://www.alfresco.com/ Yes! Use an enterprise class document management system. Seriously folks, and I mean no offence here, I know we all love geeking out over our command line tools, docbooks, and LaTex systems, but seriously, you can't ask users to walk away from a set of comfortable tools without giving them something equally comfortable to work with. Furthermore, since the original question was about a document management system, it makes sense to focus on that rather then editing text as though we were still in the eighties. Alfresco, which is an open source Sharepoint-like system (for those of you who know what that is), lets users work with the tools they are used to, including OpenOffice.org, and yes, Microsoft Office. There are tools built-in that make it easy to collaborate on documents, maintain a versioning system, and export to many different formats including text, PDF, Flash, and more. All this can be done using share protocols like WebDav, FTP, NFS, etc, and through a rich AJAX Web interface . . . and no, I don't work for Alfresco. But there is a line that's worth thinking about . . . the right tool for the right job. Take care out there. > Allows for collaborative editing, and management. > > Dave > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Aaron Vegh wrote: > > Hi all, > > Thanks so far for your answers, both off- and on-list. I've been > > reviewing these responses and trying to wrap my head around this problem. > > Ultimately, I'm not looking to have a role in this project; ideally I'd > > like to find someone who I could feel comfortable introducing to my > > client, that can run with this problem. I have some concerns, however, > > with what I've read so far. > > > > 1. Substituting OO.o for MS Office doesn't strike me as a winning > > proposition. In my (albeit limited) use of the application, I've come > > away with the impression that while it may solve some issues, it will > > create others. In the end, the client will end up with different > > headaches altogether. > > > > 2. LaTeX or DocBook XML, while clearly a respected choice by this group, > > is also to be approached with great caution. The assumption being that > > non-technical users will balk at it. I get that, for sure. But I still > > wonder if, with the right template design, a LaTeX or DocBook expert > > couldn't put together a sample document, and arrange for training of the > > staff who will use this. I think once people saw this text-based file on > > the one hand, then saw a single command given and boom! instant, perfect > > HTML and PDF versions -- they would find that very persuasive. Perhaps > > persuasive enough to actually learn and use this thing. > > > > Let me be a bit more specific now. The client is the Ontario Legislature. > > They are required to produce "Hansards", verbatim transcripts of the > > proceedings of the legislature. These documents are published on their > > web site. Here's an example of a PDF of a recent legislative session: > > > > > > http://www.ontla.on.ca/house-proceedings/transcripts/files_pdf/29-JAN-200 > >9_L108.pdf > > > > You'll note that the document is both quite long and features a fairly > > complicated layout, not to mention a large number of individual paragraph > > and character styles. There are also errors in the rendering of this > > document (for example, several blank pages). The original documents > > produced in Word are done with very specific Word styles, so I would say > > that the users are slightly above your average "non-technical". > > > > My thinking is that, any solution that requires post-processing is not > > adequate. They already have a system that has several idiosyncrasies, and > > exchanging that for another one (OO-based) is probably not going to be > > accepted. > > > > If there are any serious, knowledgeable advocates of a clean document > > creation pipeline, I'm looking forward to hearing from you. If you feel > > this can be done with OO without compromising the translation between > > formats, show me some examples using documents as complex as the kind at > > issue here! > > > > :-) > > > > Cheers, > > Aaron. > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Marcel (Writer and Free Thinker at Large) Gagn? Note: This massagee wos nat speel or gramer-checkered. Websites: marcelgagne.com AND cookingwithlinux.com AND wftlbytes.com Author of the "Moving to Linux" series of books Follow me : http://identi.ca/wftl Join the WFTL-LUG : http://www.wftl-lug.org -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 16:42:06 2009 From: ansarm-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Ansar Mohammed) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:42:06 -0500 Subject: Teksavvy users? In-Reply-To: <498C4D1C.4030500-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090205182452.GA13399@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <3a97ef0902051834n54f89c3n4ad159a3bbac6aad@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0902060640o7efe8549t92d1ecf464ed61ed@mail.gmail.com> <498C4D1C.4030500@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <025901c98879$d8e00470$8aa00d50$@com> I do have a netblock but my info is not in the whois. -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Jamon Camisso Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 9:46 AM To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [TLUG]: Teksavvy users? Tyler Aviss wrote: > I sent them this tidbit from ARIN, and it looks like they're going to > be fixing it up to have their contact info now. > > ---- > > 4.2.3.7.6. Residential Customer Privacy > > To maintain the privacy of their residential customers, an > organization with downstream residential customers may substitute that > organization's name for the customer's name, e.g. 'Private Customer - > XYZ Network', and the customer's street address may read 'Private > Residence'. Each private downstream residential reassignment must have > accurate upstream Abuse and Technical POCs visible on the WHOIS record > for that block. > > ---- > > If my co-worker hadn't been done a WHOIS against an "odd IP" in our > SSH logs (IP happened to be mine), I probably wouldn't have noticed > this myself. Anyone else with a reserved netblock might want to make > sure their personal info isn't in the rwhois (just "WHOIS" your IP in > 'nix), unless of course you like junkmail and/or possible visits from > odd internet denizens :-) Nice catch regardless. I have a single static IP with rdns set, so I guess they only publish those records if you have a netblock (of any size). Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 18:41:41 2009 From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 13:41:41 -0500 Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <77C08E56-CB1A-4F40-9ED7-EFB4151E4317-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090205223658.5b7ffa09.hgibson@eol.ca> <77C08E56-CB1A-4F40-9ED7-EFB4151E4317@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Aaron Vegh wrote: > > 2. LaTeX or DocBook XML, while clearly a respected choice by this group, is > also to be approached with great caution. The assumption being that > non-technical users will balk at it. I get that, for sure. But I still > wonder if, with the right template design, a LaTeX or DocBook expert > couldn't put together a sample document, and arrange for training of the > staff who will use this. I think once people saw this text-based file on the > one hand, then saw a single command given and boom! instant, perfect HTML > and PDF versions -- they would find that very persuasive. Perhaps persuasive > enough to actually learn and use this thing. > One of the top items in the collective DocBook / DITA etc. wish list seems to be reliable "round-tripping" templates and stylesheets for MS-Word (or for OO, for that matter). If I could give DocBook XML to people with Word, have them edit it and return it to me in DocBook, I would be very happy. As far as systems such as Alfresco are concerned, I think they are quite useful and capable, but they do not address the problem you've posed - they still involve the same (old) tools for authoring and typesetting all in one interface. Bigwigs such as J.G. Ballard and Robertson Davies have long railed against the modern word processor for some of the design reasons that are starting to complicate matters for people trying to build and maintain large documents in a consistent manner. Too much typesetting complexity and control in the same interface in which you're supposed to be composing and editing text - prose - information, is killing both the quality of writing and of typesetting. But don't take it from me. Check out what Ballard and Davies have to say ;-) Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 6 19:30:23 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 14:30:23 -0500 Subject: Linux coding In-Reply-To: References: <3a97ef0901291131w68f1e3br655c9b4dfb0a2186@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902061130v4fddb853ke532a1fdf572a81a@mail.gmail.com> Sadly, the link to the Red Book HTML version is broken, but the code samples link works and they look rather promising. I'll see how well they compile on my system. Hopefully if they work then I can get cracking with those. On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 3:02 PM, wrote: > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 02:31:35PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: >> Does anyone else on the list actually code C++'ish apps under Linux, >> or has played around with 3d/Ogre/SDL/etc development? >> What do you find are the best resources for these? I find that a large >> portion of books tend to be windows-focussed, even for the >> cross-platform apps or frameworks. > > I've dabbled with OpenGL, and I found these to be very useful and not > Windows-centric: > http://www.opengl.org/documentation/red_book/ > http://www.opengl.org/documentation/blue_book/ > > JV > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 7 00:28:40 2009 From: hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Henry de Valence) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:28:40 -0500 Subject: Linux coding In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902061130v4fddb853ke532a1fdf572a81a-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0901291131w68f1e3br655c9b4dfb0a2186@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0902061130v4fddb853ke532a1fdf572a81a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902061928.41040.hdevalence@gmail.com> On Fri February 6 2009 2:30:23 pm Tyler Aviss wrote: > Sadly, the link to the Red Book HTML version is broken, but the code > samples link works and they look rather promising. > I'll see how well they compile on my system. Hopefully if they work > then I can get cracking with those. I found http://fly.cc.fer.hr/~unreal/theredbook/ which looks like the same version (1.1) as on that site. > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 3:02 PM, wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 02:31:35PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: > >> Does anyone else on the list actually code C++'ish apps under Linux, > >> or has played around with 3d/Ogre/SDL/etc development? > >> What do you find are the best resources for these? I find that a large > >> portion of books tend to be windows-focussed, even for the > >> cross-platform apps or frameworks. > > > > I've dabbled with OpenGL, and I found these to be very useful and not > > Windows-centric: > > http://www.opengl.org/documentation/red_book/ > > http://www.opengl.org/documentation/blue_book/ > > > > JV > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 7 12:57:41 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 07:57:41 -0500 Subject: Teksavvy users? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902060640o7efe8549t92d1ecf464ed61ed-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902050910j7e5edebaud2372b2254429f0f@mail.gmail.com> <20090205182452.GA13399@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> <3a97ef0902051834n54f89c3n4ad159a3bbac6aad@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0902060640o7efe8549t92d1ecf464ed61ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498D8545.8060903@rogers.com> Tyler Aviss wrote: > I sent them this tidbit from ARIN, and it looks like they're going to > be fixing it up to have their contact info now. > > FWIW, I just tried that and it lists Rogers on Mount Pleasant, in Toronto. Yes, I know I have DHCP. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 7 15:48:49 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 10:48:49 -0500 Subject: Linux coding In-Reply-To: <200902061928.41040.hdevalence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0901291131w68f1e3br655c9b4dfb0a2186@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0902061130v4fddb853ke532a1fdf572a81a@mail.gmail.com> <200902061928.41040.hdevalence@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902070748s1bd5d8aax8ad116a66dbff106@mail.gmail.com> Even better, they have a zipped version of the HTML there, which means I can load it up on my laptop and reference it while I'm travelling (most of my reading/coding is done during the subway trip to/from work). Thanks! - TJA On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Henry de Valence wrote: > On Fri February 6 2009 2:30:23 pm Tyler Aviss wrote: >> Sadly, the link to the Red Book HTML version is broken, but the code >> samples link works and they look rather promising. >> I'll see how well they compile on my system. Hopefully if they work >> then I can get cracking with those. > > I found > http://fly.cc.fer.hr/~unreal/theredbook/ > which looks like the same version (1.1) as on that site. > >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 3:02 PM, wrote: >> > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 02:31:35PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: >> >> Does anyone else on the list actually code C++'ish apps under Linux, >> >> or has played around with 3d/Ogre/SDL/etc development? >> >> What do you find are the best resources for these? I find that a large >> >> portion of books tend to be windows-focussed, even for the >> >> cross-platform apps or frameworks. >> > >> > I've dabbled with OpenGL, and I found these to be very useful and not >> > Windows-centric: >> > http://www.opengl.org/documentation/red_book/ >> > http://www.opengl.org/documentation/blue_book/ >> > >> > JV >> > -- >> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 7 16:01:45 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 11:01:45 -0500 Subject: Linux coding In-Reply-To: References: <3a97ef0901291131w68f1e3br655c9b4dfb0a2186@mail.gmail.com> <20090129213029.GJ26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902070801o1c7792f1mf66f7a3f409c0c5e@mail.gmail.com> One of the things I had moved towards a framework for was some of the extra features like the prebuilt OO structure, as well as more "canned" stuff for shadows, input, hit-detection, etc. When you code OpenGL stuff, do you work with a framework/SDK/etc for these or it is mostly in-house stuff? Anything else out there that you might recommend that can be dropped on top of OpenGL to extend this functionality (free is nice but so long as it's "affordable" that works too)? Having poked quickly at the "Red Book" samples, they seem to be well-formatted, simple, and to-the-point. If I can stick with straight "GL" and work upward.I'd imagine there may be a lot of cruft with OGRE etc, although recently I did find that it has an "mobject/mogre" (manual object/ogre) framework for manual entity creation. - TJA On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:10 AM, colin davidson wrote: > I do a lot of work with OpenGL, though as an embedded OGL implementer, > rather than as a user. So I tend to be more concerned with "what > allocated objects do I need to free when a context is deleted" or > "what portions of what call lists can be accelerated by storing them > in indirect buffers in video memory" rather than "should I use an RGB > or an intensity texture" or "is it better to push and pop or just > reload the perspective matrix". > > Still, I should be able to answer a fair number of questions and I > know others who can answer more (about OpenGL). > > Cheers, The (an?) other Colin. > > On 1/29/09, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 02:31:35PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: >> >> > Awhile ago I bought an EEE to make use of some of that otherwise >> > wasted time I spend on the subway. So far I've been trying to update >> > my somewhat rusty knowledge of C++ and working with toolkits such as >> > OGRE. >> > Does anyone else on the list actually code C++'ish apps under Linux, >> > or has played around with 3d/Ogre/SDL/etc development? >> >> >> I have played a bit with SDL and opengl in the past. I avoid c++ in >> favour of c on principle though. Python is more fun and quicker to play >> with for sdl and opengl though especially using the pygame library. All >> of the fun with none of the ugly c or c++ bits to worry about. >> >> >> > What do you find are the best resources for these? I find that a large >> > portion of books tend to be windows-focussed, even for the >> > cross-platform apps or frameworks. >> > >> > Also, this may start a bit of a flamewar... but on modern systems, how >> > would compare performance of something like Python (I haven't used it, >> > but after Perl/PHP/C/C++ they're all somewhat familiar in >> > concept/layout) or interpreted languages VS something compiled with >> > C/C++/etc >> >> >> python actually does some compiling when you run it, and I believe, >> caches the result so running the same script (if it hasn't changed) is >> much faster. It is also very good at interfacing with c libraries and >> hence taking advantage of c libraries doing the heavy work, but letting >> someone else write those. >> >> >> -- >> Len Sorensen >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 00:11:27 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 19:11:27 -0500 Subject: 64-bit flash plugin for 'nix Message-ID: <3a97ef0902071611w7878de11nc0496e52e277e725@mail.gmail.com> I seem to remember reading awhile back that a 64-bit flash plugin had been (finally) made available for linux. However, I haven't been able to find anything on adobe's website, and Ubuntu et al seem to still be using the awful nspluginwrapper hack. Anyone know if/where the 64-bit plugin is? - TJA -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 00:15:14 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 19:15:14 -0500 Subject: 64-bit flash plugin for 'nix In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902071611w7878de11nc0496e52e277e725-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902071611w7878de11nc0496e52e277e725@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902071615k69024302l1eca670fbd8e3814@mail.gmail.com> NVM, apparently it's still only out as an alpha/pre-release/etc For those interested, it's here:: http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html I'll give it a shot and see if it's at least a bit more stable than the production-but-wrapper version. - TJA On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > I seem to remember reading awhile back that a 64-bit flash plugin had > been (finally) made available for linux. However, I haven't been able > to find anything on adobe's website, and Ubuntu et al seem to still be > using the awful nspluginwrapper hack. > > Anyone know if/where the 64-bit plugin is? > > - TJA > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 01:50:27 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 20:50:27 -0500 Subject: Web spurs map-making renaissance Message-ID: <498E3A63.60805@rogers.com> I thought this might be of interest to TLUG members involved in creating open source maps. http://www.thestar.com/article/583888 -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 12:16:52 2009 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 07:16:52 -0500 Subject: Flash 10 doesn't work for me Message-ID: <1234095412.7332.19.camel@aragorn> Someone on this list suggested a link to a 64-bit Adobe Flash download page. I unpacked the gz file, and installed the shared object file under ~/.mozilla/plugins (as instructed on their installation page), then enabled. No luck in getting it to work. I noticed that this is not a production version but a prerelease through Adobe Labs. I am using Linux Ubuntu 8.04 (64-bit), and with kernel 2.6.24-23-generic. I don't think I have previous versions of Flash on here (dselect doesn't even list such a package), and couldn't find anything suspicious under /usr/share/firefox. Any suggestions on getting this thing to work? Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 14:04:27 2009 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:04:27 -0500 Subject: My USB drives are not recognised Message-ID: <1234101867.7332.32.camel@aragorn> I am having problems with USB functionality under the latest Ubuntu for 64-bit. I previously emailed that flash is VERY broken in 64-bit, and now this problem with my USB drives. I now miss my 32-bit machine. Running dmesg, I get this over and over again: [ 76.957312] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 77.318014] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 77.678692] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 78.039382] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 78.400071] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 78.400076] hub 6-2:1.0: Cannot enable port 3. Maybe the USB cable is bad? After 5 or 6 of those, I get: [ 87.237199] sd 7:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error recovery [ 87.237209] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdc] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK Then, after a few more of the first kind of error, I get this as the final messages before it totally gives up: [ 97.818282] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) [ 98.827526] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) [ 98.828407] sd 6:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error recovery [ 98.828422] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK [ 98.828426] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 60227685 [ 98.828443] FAT: unable to read boot sector [ 103.878999] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) [ 108.148908] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) As for "bad usb cables", my drives work perfectly under Windows XP, and they are even used as network drives. Now admittedly I have had a new kernel install, but even going back to an old kernel version didn't fix the problem. Anyone have any ideas about this? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 15:39:46 2009 From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 07:39:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: 64-bit flash plugin for 'nix References: <3a97ef0902071611w7878de11nc0496e52e277e725@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0902071615k69024302l1eca670fbd8e3814@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <347402.16655.qm@web59501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hello! The link below worked for my Opensuse 11.1, & and my Ubuntu 8.10 with winfast motherboard. But it didn't work with my Ubuntu 8.10 on my own computer. When I compared both Ubuntu's, I found no appreciatable differances in the flash preformance. Hope that helps Abidel ________________________________ From: Tyler Aviss To: tlug Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2009 7:15:14 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: 64-bit flash plugin for 'nix NVM, apparently it's still only out as an alpha/pre-release/etc For those interested, it's here:: http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html I'll give it a shot and see if it's at least a bit more stable than the production-but-wrapper version. - TJA On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > I seem to remember reading awhile back that a 64-bit flash plugin had > been (finally) made available for linux. However, I haven't been able > to find anything on adobe's website, and Ubuntu et al seem to still be > using the awful nspluginwrapper hack. > > Anyone know if/where the 64-bit plugin is? > > - TJA > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > __________________________________________________________________ Get the name you've always wanted @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 15:45:20 2009 From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 07:45:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: My USB drives are not recognised References: <1234101867.7332.32.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <457313.89135.qm@web59508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Paul When I had the problem with flash, I uninstalled all flash versions, then I tried the link that Tyler found and the one computer worked. I did the same with the other computer and found I had to expariment with which version worked. Which was not from Adobe. Why! I do not know! I does went with what worked. :) Sorry, can't help you on the USB issue. Hope it helps! Abidel ________________________________ From: Paul King To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 9:04:27 AM Subject: [TLUG]: My USB drives are not recognised I am having problems with USB functionality under the latest Ubuntu for 64-bit. I previously emailed that flash is VERY broken in 64-bit, and now this problem with my USB drives. I now miss my 32-bit machine. Running dmesg, I get this over and over again: [ 76.957312] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 77.318014] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 77.678692] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 78.039382] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 78.400071] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) [ 78.400076] hub 6-2:1.0: Cannot enable port 3. Maybe the USB cable is bad? After 5 or 6 of those, I get: [ 87.237199] sd 7:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error recovery [ 87.237209] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdc] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK Then, after a few more of the first kind of error, I get this as the final messages before it totally gives up: [ 97.818282] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) [ 98.827526] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) [ 98.828407] sd 6:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error recovery [ 98.828422] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK [ 98.828426] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 60227685 [ 98.828443] FAT: unable to read boot sector [ 103.878999] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) [ 108.148908] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) As for "bad usb cables", my drives work perfectly under Windows XP, and they are even used as network drives. Now admittedly I have had a new kernel install, but even going back to an old kernel version didn't fix the problem. Anyone have any ideas about this? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 17:01:54 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 12:01:54 -0500 Subject: My USB drives are not recognised In-Reply-To: <1234101867.7332.32.camel@aragorn> References: <1234101867.7332.32.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <20090208170153.GA15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 09:04:27AM -0500, Paul King wrote: > I am having problems with USB functionality under the latest Ubuntu for > 64-bit. I previously emailed that flash is VERY broken in 64-bit, and > now this problem with my USB drives. I now miss my 32-bit machine. > > Running dmesg, I get this over and over again: > [ 76.957312] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 77.318014] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 77.678692] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 78.039382] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 78.400071] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 78.400076] hub 6-2:1.0: Cannot enable port 3. Maybe the USB cable > is bad? Are you using a usb hub? If so try without it. > After 5 or 6 of those, I get: > [ 87.237199] sd 7:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error > recovery > [ 87.237209] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdc] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT > driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK > > Then, after a few more of the first kind of error, I get this as the > final messages before it totally gives up: > [ 97.818282] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) > [ 98.827526] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) > [ 98.828407] sd 6:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error > recovery > [ 98.828422] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT > driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK > [ 98.828426] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 60227685 > [ 98.828443] FAT: unable to read boot sector > [ 103.878999] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) > [ 108.148908] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) > > As for "bad usb cables", my drives work perfectly under Windows XP, and > they are even used as network drives. Now admittedly I have had a new > kernel install, but even going back to an old kernel version didn't fix > the problem. > > Anyone have any ideas about this? Do they work under windows XP on the SAME machine? After all testing on another machine just tells you your drives appear fine, but doesn't tell you if a usb controller has failed on your linux machine. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 18:01:01 2009 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 13:01:01 -0500 Subject: Japanese on Linux Message-ID: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of viruses and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow that is Windows, is asking about Linux. What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to allow for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. All the sites I've been able to Google are quite aged, and basically are intended for high end sysadmins, not the "spell it out for me and don't skip a step" types like Your Humble Correspondent. What's the state of the art procedures in setting up a nice modern home (emphasis on "home") PC with the ability to use Japanese input on its e-mail program? Any leads as to where to look? Preferred distributions would be the more common ones, like Mandriva or Ubuntu. If the website's in Japanese, that's OK. -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 18:10:45 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 13:10:45 -0500 Subject: Japanese on Linux In-Reply-To: <200902081301.01981.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <498F2025.6030709@gmail.com> I am on CentOS 5.2 (things should be similar on RedHat and probably on Fedora). There, one should do this: Go to System->Preferences->Keyboard->Layouts. There you can add available languages and set which one is default. A small icon will show up at the bottom of the screen. By clicking there one can change between currently used languages. zb. Gary Layng wrote: > I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of viruses > and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow that is > Windows, is asking about Linux. > > What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to allow > for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. > > All the sites I've been able to Google are quite aged, and basically are > intended for high end sysadmins, not the "spell it out for me and don't skip > a step" types like Your Humble Correspondent. What's the state of the art > procedures in setting up a nice modern home (emphasis on "home") PC with the > ability to use Japanese input on its e-mail program? Any leads as to where > to look? > > Preferred distributions would be the more common ones, like Mandriva or > Ubuntu. > > If the website's in Japanese, that's OK. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 20:39:40 2009 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 15:39:40 -0500 Subject: My USB drives are not recognised In-Reply-To: <457313.89135.qm-pvAMNDiD2Dj5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <1234101867.7332.32.camel@aragorn>, <457313.89135.qm@web59508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <498EFCBC.14227.1604A47@sciguy.vex.net> Yeah, I read that you were supposed to uninstall. But I don't know the name of the package to uninstall. Also, nothing found after snooping under /usr/share/firefox/*. > > Hi Paul > > When I had the problem with flash, I uninstalled all flash versions, then I > tried the link that Tyler found and the one computer worked. I did the same with > the other computer and found I had to expariment with which version worked. > Which was not from Adobe. Why! I do not know! I does went with what worked. :) > Sorry, can't help you on the USB issue. > > Hope it helps! > Abidel > > > > From: Paul King > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 9:04:27 AM > Subject: [TLUG]: My USB drives are not recognised > > I am having problems with USB functionality under the latest Ubuntu for > 64-bit. I previously emailed that flash is VERY broken in 64-bit, and > now this problem with my USB drives. I now miss my 32-bit machine. > > Running dmesg, I get this over and over again: > [ 76.957312] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 77.318014] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 77.678692] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 78.039382] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 78.400071] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > [ 78.400076] hub 6-2:1.0: Cannot enable port 3. Maybe the USB cable > is bad? > > After 5 or 6 of those, I get: > [ 87.237199] sd 7:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error > recovery > [ 87.237209] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdc] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT > driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK > > Then, after a few more of the first kind of error, I get this as the > final messages before it totally gives up: > [ 97.818282] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) > [ 98.827526] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) > [ 98.828407] sd 6:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error > recovery > [ 98.828422] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT > driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK > [ 98.828426] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 60227685 > [ 98.828443] FAT: unable to read boot sector > [ 103.878999] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) > [ 108.148908] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) > > As for "bad usb cables", my drives work perfectly under Windows XP, and > they are even used as network drives. Now admittedly I have had a new > kernel install, but even going back to an old kernel version didn't fix > the problem. > > Anyone have any ideas about this? > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > Looking for the perfect gift?Give the gift of Flickr! > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 3836 (20090207) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 20:57:16 2009 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 15:57:16 -0500 Subject: My USB drives are not recognised In-Reply-To: <20090208170153.GA15808-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1234101867.7332.32.camel@aragorn>, <20090208170153.GA15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <498F00DC.31861.170693B@sciguy.vex.net> > On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 09:04:27AM -0500, Paul King wrote: > > I am having problems with USB functionality under the latest Ubuntu for > > 64-bit. I previously emailed that flash is VERY broken in 64-bit, and > > now this problem with my USB drives. I now miss my 32-bit machine. > > > > Running dmesg, I get this over and over again: > > [ 76.957312] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > > [ 77.318014] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > > [ 77.678692] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > > [ 78.039382] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > > [ 78.400071] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) > > [ 78.400076] hub 6-2:1.0: Cannot enable port 3. Maybe the USB cable > > is bad? > > Are you using a usb hub? If so try without it. I was going to say "no", but lucky I checked. They are all coming off the same hub. I have a USB keyboard, mouse, and three external drives, which necessitated a hub, at least for the time being. The hub worked up until last week when I added a kernel change and some 120 updates (the system hadn't been used in a while). I have a feeling that broke something. This is a dual-boot machine, and the drives are there under Windows. I can't attribute it to anything else. > > > After 5 or 6 of those, I get: > > [ 87.237199] sd 7:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error > > recovery > > [ 87.237209] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdc] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT > > driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK > > > > Then, after a few more of the first kind of error, I get this as the > > final messages before it totally gives up: > > [ 97.818282] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) > > [ 98.827526] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) > > [ 98.828407] sd 6:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error > > recovery > > [ 98.828422] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT > > driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK > > [ 98.828426] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 60227685 > > [ 98.828443] FAT: unable to read boot sector > > [ 103.878999] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) > > [ 108.148908] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) > > > > As for "bad usb cables", my drives work perfectly under Windows XP, and > > they are even used as network drives. Now admittedly I have had a new > > kernel install, but even going back to an old kernel version didn't fix > > the problem. > > > > Anyone have any ideas about this? > > Do they work under windows XP on the SAME machine? > > After all testing on another machine just tells you your drives appear > fine, but doesn't tell you if a usb controller has failed on your linux > machine. > It works on the same machine, without touching or moving anything. This machine is dual-boot. Booting into XP, it works perfectly. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 21:33:37 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 16:33:37 -0500 Subject: Japanese on Linux In-Reply-To: <200902081301.01981.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902081333gbbb26adl2da82d4603cdadd0@mail.gmail.com> I believe that most alternate-language input is handled by SCIM/SKIM. My girlfriend is Chinese and I set her up with the appropriate IM settings, which allows her to select from english/Chinese from a little floating bar (or a shortcut key). Other asian languages would also use SCIM, but with the appropriate plugins and fonts. On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Gary Layng wrote: > I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of viruses > and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow that is > Windows, is asking about Linux. > > What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to allow > for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. > > All the sites I've been able to Google are quite aged, and basically are > intended for high end sysadmins, not the "spell it out for me and don't skip > a step" types like Your Humble Correspondent. What's the state of the art > procedures in setting up a nice modern home (emphasis on "home") PC with the > ability to use Japanese input on its e-mail program? Any leads as to where > to look? > > Preferred distributions would be the more common ones, like Mandriva or > Ubuntu. > > If the website's in Japanese, that's OK. > -- > there's no place like 127.0.0.1 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 21:36:04 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 16:36:04 -0500 Subject: Flash 10 doesn't work for me In-Reply-To: <1234095412.7332.19.camel@aragorn> References: <1234095412.7332.19.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902081336x7e5a3d3dyb529b34053c90959@mail.gmail.com> I was the one that originally brought it up. Once you unpack, try putting the "libflashplayer.so" in /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins instead. Also make sure to remove existing references in there to flash or nspluginwrapper. Worked for me on 8.10, but 8.04 should work similarly I'd imagine. - TJA On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 7:16 AM, Paul King wrote: > Someone on this list suggested a link to a 64-bit Adobe Flash download > page. I unpacked the gz file, and installed the shared object file under > ~/.mozilla/plugins (as instructed on their installation page), then > enabled. No luck in getting it to work. I noticed that this is not a > production version but a prerelease through Adobe Labs. > > I am using Linux Ubuntu 8.04 (64-bit), and with kernel > 2.6.24-23-generic. > > I don't think I have previous versions of Flash on here (dselect doesn't > even list such a package), and couldn't find anything suspicious > under /usr/share/firefox. > > Any suggestions on getting this thing to work? > > Paul King > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 21:37:34 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 16:37:34 -0500 Subject: 64-bit flash plugin for 'nix In-Reply-To: <347402.16655.qm-psvczfE7sJD5nGHA2nhOEg9VFclH1bkmQQ4Iyu8u01E@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902071611w7878de11nc0496e52e277e725@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0902071615k69024302l1eca670fbd8e3814@mail.gmail.com> <347402.16655.qm@web59501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902081337m52a6b6e7tf1b82672fa7e08ad@mail.gmail.com> Working for me in 8.10 Did you check to make sure you have no hanger-on plugins such as the old flashplugin, nspluginwrapper, etc in /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins? On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Abidel Bassie-Cripps wrote: > Hello! > > The link below worked for my Opensuse 11.1, & and my Ubuntu 8.10 with > winfast motherboard. But it didn't work with my Ubuntu 8.10 on my own > computer. When I compared both Ubuntu's, I found no appreciatable > differances in the flash preformance. > > Hope that helps > Abidel > > > ________________________________ > From: Tyler Aviss > To: tlug > Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2009 7:15:14 PM > Subject: Re: [TLUG]: 64-bit flash plugin for 'nix > > NVM, apparently it's still only out as an alpha/pre-release/etc > > For those interested, it's here:: > > http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html > > I'll give it a shot and see if it's at least a bit more stable than > the production-but-wrapper version. > > - TJA > > On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: >> I seem to remember reading awhile back that a 64-bit flash plugin had >> been (finally) made available for linux. However, I haven't been able >> to find anything on adobe's website, and Ubuntu et al seem to still be >> using the awful nspluginwrapper hack. >> >> Anyone know if/where the 64-bit plugin is? >> >> - TJA >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > > ________________________________ > All new Yahoo! Mail - Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading > pane. -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 21:41:49 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 16:41:49 -0500 Subject: My USB drives are not recognised In-Reply-To: <498F00DC.31861.170693B-TElMtxJ9tQ95lvbp69gI5w@public.gmane.org> References: <1234101867.7332.32.camel@aragorn> <20090208170153.GA15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <498F00DC.31861.170693B@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902081341p73727a49j936753137abeda8b@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Paul King wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 09:04:27AM -0500, Paul King wrote: >> > I am having problems with USB functionality under the latest Ubuntu for >> > 64-bit. I previously emailed that flash is VERY broken in 64-bit, and >> > now this problem with my USB drives. I now miss my 32-bit machine. >> > >> > Running dmesg, I get this over and over again: >> > [ 76.957312] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) >> > [ 77.318014] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) >> > [ 77.678692] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) >> > [ 78.039382] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) >> > [ 78.400071] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot reset port 3 (err = -110) >> > [ 78.400076] hub 6-2:1.0: Cannot enable port 3. Maybe the USB cable >> > is bad? >> >> Are you using a usb hub? If so try without it. > > I was going to say "no", but lucky I checked. They are all coming off the same > hub. I have a USB keyboard, mouse, and three external drives, which > necessitated a hub, at least for the time being. > > The hub worked up until last week when I added a kernel change and some 120 > updates (the system hadn't been used in a while). I have a feeling that broke > something. This is a dual-boot machine, and the drives are there under Windows. > I can't attribute it to anything else. > >> >> > After 5 or 6 of those, I get: >> > [ 87.237199] sd 7:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error >> > recovery >> > [ 87.237209] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdc] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT >> > driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK >> > >> > Then, after a few more of the first kind of error, I get this as the >> > final messages before it totally gives up: >> > [ 97.818282] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) >> > [ 98.827526] hub 6-2:1.0: cannot disable port 2 (err = -110) >> > [ 98.828407] sd 6:0:0:0: Device offlined - not ready after error >> > recovery >> > [ 98.828422] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdb] Result: hostbyte=DID_ABORT >> > driverbyte=DRIVER_OK,SUGGEST_OK >> > [ 98.828426] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 60227685 >> > [ 98.828443] FAT: unable to read boot sector >> > [ 103.878999] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) >> > [ 108.148908] hub 6-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -110) >> > >> > As for "bad usb cables", my drives work perfectly under Windows XP, and >> > they are even used as network drives. Now admittedly I have had a new >> > kernel install, but even going back to an old kernel version didn't fix >> > the problem. >> > >> > Anyone have any ideas about this? >> >> Do they work under windows XP on the SAME machine? >> >> After all testing on another machine just tells you your drives appear >> fine, but doesn't tell you if a usb controller has failed on your linux >> machine. >> > > It works on the same machine, without touching or moving anything. This machine > is dual-boot. Booting into XP, it works perfectly. > > Paul King > > I've found that the high-speed USB drivers in linux can be VERY finicky at times. In a previous kernel version, my USB used to drop out all the time with I/O errors unless I removed the "ehci-hcd" driver (which also slows down USB considerably as that is the "high-speed" driver). When I bumped up to 2.6.28 the problem went away, so I'm guessing it may have been an issue supporting the USB controller in my laptop. -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 22:06:42 2009 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:06:42 -0500 Subject: flash 10 (64bit) problem fixed Message-ID: <1234130802.6769.3.camel@aragorn> Because this was a (relatively) fresh and little-used install of Linux, no older flash installations were on my system. But I did have Gnash installed, and got rid of the installation with apt-get remove gnash then it just plain worked. And for whatever reason, my hard drives magically reappeared. Don't know what the problem was. Maybe the next time I reboot, they won't be there. Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 22:08:38 2009 From: sciguy-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Paul King) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:08:38 -0500 Subject: flash 10 (64bit) problem fixed In-Reply-To: <1234130802.6769.3.camel@aragorn> References: <1234130802.6769.3.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <1234130918.6769.6.camel@aragorn> BTW, a big thanks to all who helped, including Tyler, who pointed me towards /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins where I discovered what appeared to be a link to a link to a file (gnash), which I removed with apt-get. On Sun, 2009-02-08 at 17:06 -0500, Paul King wrote: > Because this was a (relatively) fresh and little-used install of Linux, > no older flash installations were on my system. But I did have Gnash > installed, and got rid of the installation with > > apt-get remove gnash > > then it just plain worked. > > And for whatever reason, my hard drives magically reappeared. Don't know > what the problem was. Maybe the next time I reboot, they won't be there. > > Paul King -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 22:12:44 2009 From: mrsabidel-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (Abidel Bassie-Cripps) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 14:12:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: My USB drives are not recognised References: <1234101867.7332.32.camel@aragorn>, <457313.89135.qm@web59508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <498EFCBC.14227.1604A47@sciguy.vex.net> Message-ID: <923212.25874.qm@web59514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Paul Go to Apllications, then Add/Remove, then in search type "flash". I made a note of what was checked off and proceeded to delete by unchecking the ones that showed up and the Apply. Because of my habits with winxp, I rebooted the started over on the installing, either by the same method as the Add/Remove or by install in other means required by the download. Hoped that helps! Abidel ________________________________ From: Paul King To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 3:39:40 PM Subject: Re: [TLUG]: My USB drives are not recognised Yeah, I read that you were supposed to uninstall. But I don't know the name of the package to uninstall. Also, nothing found after snooping under /usr/share/firefox/*. > > Hi Paul > > When I had the problem with flash, I uninstalled all flash versions, then I > tried the link that Tyler found and the one computer worked. I did the same with > the other computer and found I had to expariment with which version worked. > Which was not from Adobe. Why! I do not know! I does went with what worked. :) > Sorry, can't help you on the USB issue. > > Hope it helps! > Abidel > > __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 01:20:00 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 20:20:00 -0500 Subject: Japanese on Linux In-Reply-To: <200902081301.01981.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <498F84C0.2000601@alteeve.com> Gary Layng wrote: > I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of viruses > and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow that is > Windows, is asking about Linux. > > What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to allow > for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. > > All the sites I've been able to Google are quite aged, and basically are > intended for high end sysadmins, not the "spell it out for me and don't skip > a step" types like Your Humble Correspondent. What's the state of the art > procedures in setting up a nice modern home (emphasis on "home") PC with the > ability to use Japanese input on its e-mail program? Any leads as to where > to look? > > Preferred distributions would be the more common ones, like Mandriva or > Ubuntu. > > If the website's in Japanese, that's OK. Hi, I'm also learning (couple years now) and have no trouble using kana/kanji input on Ubuntu. Simply install the following (from my notes): sudo apt-get install thunderbird-locale-ja ttf-kochi-mincho-naga10 ttf-kochi-gothic-naga10 ttf-sazanami-gothic ttf-sazanami-mincho unifont uim-anthy uim-applet-gnome language-pack-gnome-ja language-pack-ja language-pack-kde-ja language-support-ja Some of those you may or may not want, they're just all I installed. The main ones are 'uim-anthy uim-applet-gnome'. Once they're installed, restart Gnome and add the applet to your panel by right-click -> Add to Panel -> Input Method Indicator. You may or may not need to restart again. At this point, you will see the tool on your panel. It's default method is plain ascii input. You can set defaults, change hot keys and so forth easily. You can also choose to set it to change input for a single window or the entire desktop. When anthy is active, you switch between romanji and kana/kanji input by pressing 'shift + space'. It can also be set to support half-width kana, default between hiragana/katakana and so on. I've found the library to choose kanji is extremely intelligent and accurate, too. It has no trouble choosing the right kanji using various variations caused by verb conjugation, short forms and so on. If you or your teacher need any help, I'm more than happy to help. ??????? Madi PS - Where are you studying? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 01:41:20 2009 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 20:41:20 -0500 Subject: Japanese on Linux In-Reply-To: <498F84C0.2000601-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> <498F84C0.2000601@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200902082041.21071.glayng@sympatico.ca> I think that should work very well. Thanks, Madison!!!!!! On Sunday 08 February 2009 20:20, Madison Kelly wrote: > Gary Layng wrote: > > I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of > > viruses and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow > > that is Windows, is asking about Linux. > > > > What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to > > allow for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. > > > > All the sites I've been able to Google are quite aged, and basically are > > intended for high end sysadmins, not the "spell it out for me and don't > > skip a step" types like Your Humble Correspondent. What's the state of > > the art procedures in setting up a nice modern home (emphasis on "home") > > PC with the ability to use Japanese input on its e-mail program? Any > > leads as to where to look? > > > > Preferred distributions would be the more common ones, like Mandriva or > > Ubuntu. > > > > If the website's in Japanese, that's OK. > > Hi, > > I'm also learning (couple years now) and have no trouble using > kana/kanji input on Ubuntu. Simply install the following (from my notes): > > sudo apt-get install thunderbird-locale-ja ttf-kochi-mincho-naga10 > ttf-kochi-gothic-naga10 ttf-sazanami-gothic ttf-sazanami-mincho unifont > uim-anthy uim-applet-gnome language-pack-gnome-ja language-pack-ja > language-pack-kde-ja language-support-ja > > Some of those you may or may not want, they're just all I installed. > The main ones are 'uim-anthy uim-applet-gnome'. Once they're installed, > restart Gnome and add the applet to your panel by right-click -> Add to > Panel -> Input Method Indicator. You may or may not need to restart again. > > At this point, you will see the tool on your panel. It's default > method is plain ascii input. You can set defaults, change hot keys and > so forth easily. You can also choose to set it to change input for a > single window or the entire desktop. When anthy is active, you switch > between romanji and kana/kanji input by pressing 'shift + space'. It can > also be set to support half-width kana, default between > hiragana/katakana and so on. I've found the library to choose kanji is > extremely intelligent and accurate, too. It has no trouble choosing the > right kanji using various variations caused by verb conjugation, short > forms and so on. > > If you or your teacher need any help, I'm more than happy to help. > > ??????? > > Madi > > PS - Where are you studying? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 8 19:25:12 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 14:25:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Japanese on Linux In-Reply-To: <200902081301.01981.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <33389.74.13.125.28.1234121112.squirrel@webmail.weait.com> > I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of > viruses > and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow that is > Windows, is asking about Linux. > > What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to > allow > for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. I have no idea. But you might find an helpful person with experience at the Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre? http://staff.jccc.net/vpn/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 05:30:56 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 00:30:56 -0500 Subject: Japanese on Linux In-Reply-To: <33389.74.13.125.28.1234121112.squirrel-2RFepEojUI2A1MdSvfkuFwC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org> References: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> <33389.74.13.125.28.1234121112.squirrel@webmail.weait.com> Message-ID: <498FBF90.9010807@alteeve.com> richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org wrote: >> I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of >> viruses >> and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow that is >> Windows, is asking about Linux. >> >> What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to >> allow >> for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. > > I have no idea. But you might find an helpful person with experience at > the Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre? http://staff.jccc.net/vpn/ I think you mean: http://www.jccc.on.ca/ :) Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 14:39:20 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:39:20 -0500 Subject: My USB drives are not recognised In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902081341p73727a49j936753137abeda8b-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1234101867.7332.32.camel@aragorn> <20090208170153.GA15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <498F00DC.31861.170693B@sciguy.vex.net> <3a97ef0902081341p73727a49j936753137abeda8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090209143920.GB15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 04:41:49PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: > I've found that the high-speed USB drivers in linux can be VERY > finicky at times. In a previous kernel version, my USB used to drop > out all the time with I/O errors unless I removed the "ehci-hcd" > driver (which also slows down USB considerably as that is the > "high-speed" driver). > > When I bumped up to 2.6.28 the problem went away, so I'm guessing it > may have been an issue supporting the USB controller in my laptop. It may actually be a recent udev change that broke USB. I vaguely recall reading something about a udev change in ubuntu messing up some usb drives. Not sure though. The kernel change is much more likely though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 14:57:11 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:57:11 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [u-u] Unix Unanimous meeting - Wed 11 Feb 2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For those who would like to expand your horizons a bit, you might want to look at Unix Unanimous. Colin McGregor ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Unix Unanimous Webmaster Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 00:01:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [u-u] Unix Unanimous meeting - Wed 11 Feb 2009 To: u-u-nUbHFpetmNumKAeH2fHhIti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org The next meeting of Unix Unanimous will be held at 6:45 pm on Wednesday 11 February 2009, in room BA 5256 of the Bahen Centre for Information Technology at 40 St. George Street, on the University of Toronto campus. Unix Unanimous is an informal gathering of people interested in Unix and related topics. There are no fees or membership requirements, and the meeting is open to all. Participants typically include Unix professionals, students, and hobbyists. This message will be repeated on the Monday before the meeting. If there are any items for the agenda, email u-u-owner-nUbHFpetmNumKAeH2fHhIti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org before then. The meeting is always held on the second Wednesday of each month. Special Announcements: A mailing list has been set up for this announcement. If you wish to receive notification via email, go to the web page https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u/ in order to subscribe yourself. A map of the area can be found at http://unixunanimous.org where this message is repeated, and will always contain the correct location and time of the next meeting. _______________________________________________ u-u mailing list u-u-sb41XHKw7bdvuSlQZN9BUtrUbErFZevf at public.gmane.org https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 15:15:02 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:15:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fwd: [u-u] Unix Unanimous meeting - Wed 11 Feb 2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Colin McGregor wrote: > For those who would like to expand your horizons a bit, you might want > to look at Unix Unanimous. I have attended UU many times and it is great fun. Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 15:21:54 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:21:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: <20090206124949.GB5986-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Feb 2009, Neil Watson wrote: > IBM can be somewhat bipolar by offering Linux one moment and AIX the > next. Well they offer both all the time :) It seems to me that they aim them at quite different roles though. A lot of IBMs larger and older customers use AIX for high end systems and will continue to do so for a very long time. At the same time IBM has pushed Linux in different markets. I think it makes a lot of sense for them as without Linux or an OS like it they would have needed to adapt AIX in those cases. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 15:33:23 2009 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:33:23 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: <20090206124949.GB5986-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 01:23:30AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: >> >> I expect large companies supporting OSS (such as IBM) are already >> working on their submissions. > > IBM can be somewhat bipolar by offering Linux one moment and AIX the > next. As Rob has already indicated, operating systems are not necessarily one-size-fits-all; offering a choice makes it easier to convince a customer that IBM has a solution that will work for them. And this puzzles me about Microsoft: instead of continuing to sell and support Windows XP, they insist on closing down a now stable operating system and forcing their customer to buy The New Thing, Vista. And then Microsoft's compounding the problem by coming out with Windows 7, meaning some customers will skip Vista altogether and go with that product instead. That's weird. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 15:40:49 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 10:40:49 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <49904E81.7030207@telly.org> Alex Beamish wrote: > As Rob has already indicated, operating systems are not necessarily > one-size-fits-all; offering a choice makes it easier to convince a > customer that IBM has a solution that will work for them. And this > puzzles me about Microsoft: instead of continuing to sell and support > Windows XP, they insist on closing down a now stable operating system > and forcing their customer to buy The New Thing, Vista. And then > Microsoft's compounding the problem by coming out with Windows 7, > meaning some customers will skip Vista altogether and go with that > product instead. That's weird Not really, if you consider their business model (selling software licenses) Once everyone has XP on their computer, the market is saturated. People expect not to have to pay for security updates. So the only way to get recurring revenue out of that market is to offer a 'feature' upgrade that requires a new license. The feature upgrade also justifies a price increase -- The cost of Windows 7 for netbooks will be significantly more than the existing XP licenses. I don't necessarily agree with that model, but I wouldn't call it wierd. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 15:46:42 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:46:42 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: In traditional software companies, on of the most difficult problems faced is maintaining multiple versions. This isn't much of an issue in the FOSS world, because the source is available and developers can just wash their hands of version and move on (if someone really cares about that previous version, they can "scratch the itch" themselves either by maintaining it for themselves or by paying someone to maintain it). Microsoft has solved this problem (for themselves - their "solution" only hurts their customers) by simply closing down previous versions (stopping support AND stopping legal sales of the outdated versions). The reason they don't simply abandon them is that this then makes the unsupported version the main competitor for their new software and encourages others to stick to previous versions, confident that their applications will live on. I am fairly convinced that one of these days, one of the sporadic customer revolts will catch MS offgaurd and kill them for all practical purposes. Cheers, the other Colin On 2/9/09, Alex Beamish wrote: > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Neil Watson wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 01:23:30AM -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > >> > >> I expect large companies supporting OSS (such as IBM) are already > >> working on their submissions. > > > > IBM can be somewhat bipolar by offering Linux one moment and AIX the > > next. > > > As Rob has already indicated, operating systems are not necessarily > one-size-fits-all; offering a choice makes it easier to convince a > customer that IBM has a solution that will work for them. And this > puzzles me about Microsoft: instead of continuing to sell and support > Windows XP, they insist on closing down a now stable operating system > and forcing their customer to buy The New Thing, Vista. And then > Microsoft's compounding the problem by coming out with Windows 7, > meaning some customers will skip Vista altogether and go with that > product instead. That's weird. > > > -- > Alex Beamish > Toronto, Ontario > aka talexb > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 9 16:03:04 2009 From: talexb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Alex Beamish) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:03:04 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: <49904E81.7030207-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> <49904E81.7030207@telly.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Alex Beamish wrote: >> As Rob has already indicated, operating systems are not necessarily >> one-size-fits-all; offering a choice makes it easier to convince a >> customer that IBM has a solution that will work for them. And this >> puzzles me about Microsoft: instead of continuing to sell and support >> Windows XP, they insist on closing down a now stable operating system >> and forcing their customer to buy The New Thing, Vista. And then >> Microsoft's compounding the problem by coming out with Windows 7, >> meaning some customers will skip Vista altogether and go with that >> product instead. That's weird > Not really, if you consider their business model (selling software licenses) > > Once everyone has XP on their computer, the market is saturated. People > expect not to have to pay for security updates. So the only way to get > recurring revenue out of that market is to offer a 'feature' upgrade > that requires a new license. I'm talking about people who want to buy new computers, installed with XP, not Vista -- those customers are the ones hearing that Microsoft isn't selling XP anymore. I don't get that part of the equation. I think it's agreed that Vista requires 2-3 times more powerful systems; why not sell XP as the older, slower, less featured product? I presume that the cost of providing security updates for XP is built into the cost of selling the OS in the first place. If there's still a solid revenue stream from people buying XP, that alone should pay for the security updates and minor bug fixes. The original development cost for XP must have been fully amortized by now. They don't need to advertise. What other costs are there? I just don't understand a business that discontinues a product or service that's still making them money. That's the part I find weird. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 10 15:26:47 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:26:47 -0500 Subject: riddle me this In-Reply-To: <495AE3C9.6040208-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> Message-ID: Morning all, 2008/12/30 Stephen > teddymills wrote: > >> How the heck do they know I am in Canada? >> What are some ways to bypass this? >> > > Your IP address. > > Use a web proxy based in the US > Any suggestion of a cheap/reliable US proxies I can use? I do not mind paying a reasonable fee if there is none that is free at the moment. Regards, William > > Stephen > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three. ?Alice Kahn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 10 15:59:37 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:59:37 -0500 Subject: riddle me this In-Reply-To: References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> Message-ID: <4991A469.8020505@gmail.com> William Muriithi wrote: > Morning all, > > 2008/12/30 Stephen > > > teddymills wrote: > > How the heck do they know I am in Canada? > What are some ways to bypass this? > > > Your IP address. > > Use a web proxy based in the US > > > Any suggestion of a cheap/reliable US proxies I can use? I do not > mind paying a reasonable fee if there is none that is free at the moment. Just google them. Have in mind however that most proxy servers are probably run by covert police or intelligence agents ;) zb. > > Regards, > > William > > > > Stephen > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > > -- > For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the > quality of life, please press three. > ?Alice Kahn > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 10 16:23:02 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:23:02 -0500 Subject: riddle me this In-Reply-To: <4991A469.8020505-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> <4991A469.8020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kaziol, Any suggestion of a cheap/reliable US proxies I can use? I do not mind paying a reasonable fee if there is none that is free at the moment. > > Just google them. Have in mind however that most proxy servers are probably > run by covert police or intelligence agents ;) > Opps, that was something that I just learned now. And come to think of it, its very clever of them to do that. Thanks, William > > zb. > > > >> Regards, >> >> William >> >> >> Stephen >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> >> >> >> >> -- >> For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of >> life, please press three. >> ?Alice Kahn >> >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three. ?Alice Kahn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 10 16:49:05 2009 From: dmason-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w at public.gmane.org (Dave Mason) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:49:05 -0500 Subject: riddle me this In-Reply-To: <4991A469.8020505-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> <4991A469.8020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090210164905.6A653854F1@sarg.ryerson.ca> There was an article in the Toronto Star in the last few days about this (it was talking about episodes of TV blocked on web sites). ../Dave -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 10 20:22:57 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:22:57 -0500 Subject: riddle me this In-Reply-To: <20090210164905.6A653854F1-bqArmZWzea/GcjXNFnLQ/w@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> <4991A469.8020505@gmail.com> <20090210164905.6A653854F1@sarg.ryerson.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902101222m20ab4465rfa6726f0b7945ab9@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Dave Mason wrote: > There was an article in the Toronto Star in the last few days about this > (it was talking about episodes of TV blocked on web sites). > > ../Dave > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Would US police care if you're using a proxy to watch online TV or whatever? I'd imagine they're more interested in the attempting-to-be-anonymous pervs or dealers-of-shady-merchandise? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From maureen-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 15:07:42 2009 From: maureen-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org (Maureen Thornton) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:07:42 -0500 Subject: shopping help needed In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902101222m20ab4465rfa6726f0b7945ab9-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> <4991A469.8020505@gmail.com> <20090210164905.6A653854F1@sarg.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0902101222m20ab4465rfa6726f0b7945ab9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1234364862.29499.16.camel@bliss.mt.ss.org> Has anyone found a WATERPROOF camera that uses Linux - not the other OS! We are off to the Caribbean on the weekend and have been shopping for a disposable type waterproof camera (read cheap). All I have been able to find is the type that you shoot, download via USB to Windows or Mac. This will not work with our Linux laptop and we cannot find anything compatible. (Other than of course adding WINE to the laptop.) Any help out there? Maureen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 15:52:48 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:52:48 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux Message-ID: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> Hi guys, My main machine at home has really been slow and I realized I made a bad purchase 2 years ago. I'm quite sure it was low quality hardware that was to blame, a HP Pavilion that came with a Pentium D chip which I'd never heard of. I never figured out if Ubuntu was the cause of any of the slow down but I do know that when I used Fluxbox over Gnome, or KDE applications vs. Gnome applications the slowdown was more tolerable. If I left my machine on all the time.. after 2-3 days it became unusable unless I rebooted it. It became quite loud too, regardless of how many fans I'd used to try to fix the heat problem. I recently ordered a Dell Precision T3400. It's coming with a 64-bit Intel Core 2 Duo (3 GHz) processor. It's a desktop intended to be a home machine, user-friendly enough for my girlfriend to use as well. In the past I've fought with 64-bit distributions. It's not Linux itself that was the problem, it was the lack of compatibility for certain key applications I'd gotten used to, mainly: Flash and Java browser plugins. Now I've done the whole having a separate Firefox, or having a 32-bit plugin wrapper, or using open flash alternatives. I'm not interested in these "hacks". I would like to run Adobe Flash native and Sun's (not Blackdown or anything else) Java plugin for Firefox. I ran into so many problems that I decided I wasn't ready to run 64-bit Linux on a desktop and have been dealing with a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit capable processor. I've seen recently that Adobe *finally* released support for 64-bit Flash in version 10 (beta?). It seems like after 2 years there's hope for me running 64-bit Linux on my desktop. My questions are, /from your experience/ - I'll need to shrink the partition with Vista on it to make space for my Linux partition. I usually use GNU parted. Do you foresee any issues with this? - Is the 64-bit NVIDIA drivers stable and working well (compared to the 32-bit ones). I'm getting a "256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor DVI Capable". The most intense thing I do with my video card is watch movies (no games, no video production, etc.) With my current machine, even watching a single movie will cause noticeable slow down afterwards. - Is 64-bit Flash 10 stable and working well? - Can I use an up-to-date Sun 64-bit Java plugin for Firefox (let's say "up-to-date means" 5.0 or later) - Is there any reason I would install, say, Debian vs. Ubuntu. Of all the distros I've tried these two remain my favorite. However, Ubuntu has continued to let me down since it came out. I keep using it because it's more user friendly for my girlfriend (nice apps for Digital Cameras etc.) though I have gone back and forth several times. The main issue I have is that it makes a lot of assumptions that slow your machine down.. like file system options and running several unnecessary background processes that bloat up the system. I've had problem with compiz slowing down video as well. Maybe this won't be much of an issue on the new machine... or maybe I can just look into a HOWTO for slimming down the default Ubuntu. - Are there any other obvious problems running 64-bit Linux on a Desktop I should know about? Your answers will determine whether or not I stick with 32-bit OS for the time-being. Thanks in advance for your help. Marc -- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 16:04:59 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:04:59 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4992F450.7090002-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <4992F72B.5010109@ualberta.ca> Marc Lanctot wrote: > Hi guys, > > My main machine at home has really been slow and I realized I made a bad > purchase 2 years ago. I'm quite sure it was low quality hardware that > was to blame, a HP Pavilion that came with a Pentium D chip which I'd > never heard of. I never figured out if Ubuntu was the cause of any of > the slow down but I do know that when I used Fluxbox over Gnome, or KDE > applications vs. Gnome applications the slowdown was more tolerable. If > I left my machine on all the time.. after 2-3 days it became unusable > unless I rebooted it. It became quite loud too, regardless of how many > fans I'd used to try to fix the heat problem. > > I recently ordered a Dell Precision T3400. It's coming with a 64-bit > Intel Core 2 Duo (3 GHz) processor. It's a desktop intended to be a home > machine, user-friendly enough for my girlfriend to use as well. > > In the past I've fought with 64-bit distributions. It's not Linux itself > that was the problem, it was the lack of compatibility for certain key > applications I'd gotten used to, mainly: Flash and Java browser plugins. > > Now I've done the whole having a separate Firefox, or having a 32-bit > plugin wrapper, or using open flash alternatives. I'm not interested in > these "hacks". I would like to run Adobe Flash native and Sun's (not > Blackdown or anything else) Java plugin for Firefox. I ran into so many > problems that I decided I wasn't ready to run 64-bit Linux on a desktop > and have been dealing with a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit capable processor. > > I've seen recently that Adobe *finally* released support for 64-bit > Flash in version 10 (beta?). > > It seems like after 2 years there's hope for me running 64-bit Linux on > my desktop. > > My questions are, /from your experience/ > > - I'll need to shrink the partition with Vista on it to make space for > my Linux partition. I usually use GNU parted. Do you foresee any issues > with this? > > - Is the 64-bit NVIDIA drivers stable and working well (compared to the > 32-bit ones). I'm getting a "256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor > DVI Capable". The most intense thing I do with my video card is watch > movies (no games, no video production, etc.) With my current machine, > even watching a single movie will cause noticeable slow down afterwards. > > - Is 64-bit Flash 10 stable and working well? > > - Can I use an up-to-date Sun 64-bit Java plugin for Firefox (let's say > "up-to-date means" 5.0 or later) > > - Is there any reason I would install, say, Debian vs. Ubuntu. Of all > the distros I've tried these two remain my favorite. However, Ubuntu has > continued to let me down since it came out. I keep using it because it's > more user friendly for my girlfriend (nice apps for Digital Cameras > etc.) though I have gone back and forth several times. The main issue I > have is that it makes a lot of assumptions that slow your machine down.. > like file system options and running several unnecessary background > processes that bloat up the system. I've had problem with compiz slowing > down video as well. Maybe this won't be much of an issue on the new > machine... or maybe I can just look into a HOWTO for slimming down the > default Ubuntu. > > - Are there any other obvious problems running 64-bit Linux on a Desktop > I should know about? > > Your answers will determine whether or not I stick with 32-bit OS for > the time-being. Thanks in advance for your help. Sorry .. I forgot a few things - The applications I use the most: firefox (with acroread, flash, and java plugins), thunderbird (with lightning and google calendar plugin), gvim and vim, gcc/g++, make, java, subversion, latex (tetex), pidgin, and audacious. - If CUPS supports a printer in 32-bit Linux, would there be any issues with that same printer through CUPS in 64-bit? I'm looking forward to finall harnessing the power of a 64-bit processor :) Marc -- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 16:18:23 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:18:23 -0500 Subject: shopping help needed In-Reply-To: <1234364862.29499.16.camel-TYYFDwxCHJP5OPYHOmv4JA@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> <4991A469.8020505@gmail.com> <20090210164905.6A653854F1@sarg.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0902101222m20ab4465rfa6726f0b7945ab9@mail.gmail.com> <1234364862.29499.16.camel@bliss.mt.ss.org> Message-ID: <20090211161823.GC15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:07:42AM -0500, Maureen Thornton wrote: > Has anyone found a WATERPROOF camera that uses Linux - not the other OS! > We are off to the Caribbean on the weekend and have been shopping for a > disposable type waterproof camera (read cheap). All I have been able to > find is the type that you shoot, download via USB to Windows or Mac. > This will not work with our Linux laptop and we cannot find anything > compatible. (Other than of course adding WINE to the laptop.) Why do you want to camera to run linux? I just want it to work with linux, which certainly any Canon I have ever used did, either as USB mass storage, or using pictbridge or similar with gphoto. Of course taking the SD card out and putting it in a reader works too. Now if you are talking video cameras, then there is the issue of which codec it uses for the video and what it uses for transfers. I haven't played with any of those in a while, other than my father's sony which uses firewire and standard DV mpeg data, which linux has no problem dealing with. As for waterproof, that's a job for the case. You can get waterproof cases for many digital cameras, often both from the maker and 3rd partys (often much better than the camera makers cases). -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 16:27:28 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:27:28 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4992F450.7090002-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090211162728.GD15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:52:48AM -0500, Marc Lanctot wrote: > My main machine at home has really been slow and I realized I made a bad > purchase 2 years ago. I'm quite sure it was low quality hardware that > was to blame, a HP Pavilion that came with a Pentium D chip which I'd > never heard of. I never figured out if Ubuntu was the cause of any of > the slow down but I do know that when I used Fluxbox over Gnome, or KDE > applications vs. Gnome applications the slowdown was more tolerable. If > I left my machine on all the time.. after 2-3 days it became unusable > unless I rebooted it. It became quite loud too, regardless of how many > fans I'd used to try to fix the heat problem. Clean the heatsink. If the heatsink is full of dust, then air can't flow through it, which stalls the fan, and makes the fan run faster (while doing nothing useful) and hence make more noise. I cleaned the heatsink on my wife's laptop, and it went from making a ton of noise to be as quiet as the day she got it, and the CPU temp dropped 15C. The Pentium D was first a rebranded Pentium4 dual core, which like all other pentium 4s is just a crappy design. Some newer ones are Core Duo's (Pentium M based) which is better, or even Core 2 Duo's with most of their cache stripped off (think celeron). > I recently ordered a Dell Precision T3400. It's coming with a 64-bit > Intel Core 2 Duo (3 GHz) processor. It's a desktop intended to be a home > machine, user-friendly enough for my girlfriend to use as well. I know better than to buy computers from Dell. > In the past I've fought with 64-bit distributions. It's not Linux itself > that was the problem, it was the lack of compatibility for certain key > applications I'd gotten used to, mainly: Flash and Java browser plugins. Yeah proprietary software is the only problem with 64bit linux. Go figure. Now flash with the 32bit wrapper seems to work (about as well as it does on 32bit linux, which isn't great stability wise), and for java, well I think I read in the bug report at sun about 64bit plugin support that they promised to look at the problem in Q1 of 2009, so maybe they are working on it now. Never mind blackdown managed to make it work years ago. Apparently sun programmers work differently. > Now I've done the whole having a separate Firefox, or having a 32-bit > plugin wrapper, or using open flash alternatives. I'm not interested in > these "hacks". I would like to run Adobe Flash native and Sun's (not > Blackdown or anything else) Java plugin for Firefox. I ran into so many > problems that I decided I wasn't ready to run 64-bit Linux on a desktop > and have been dealing with a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit capable processor. Well feel free to nag the responsible companies, or find open source alternatives (good luck on that part too). No one other than those companies can decide when they will get a clue. > I've seen recently that Adobe *finally* released support for 64-bit > Flash in version 10 (beta?). alpha? Not sure. > It seems like after 2 years there's hope for me running 64-bit Linux on > my desktop. > > My questions are, /from your experience/ > > - I'll need to shrink the partition with Vista on it to make space for > my Linux partition. I usually use GNU parted. Do you foresee any issues > with this? You will probably have to run the vista repair console to fix the boot loader since vista's bootloader is paranoid about ANY changes to the vista partition. Simple procedure if you have a _real_ vista install disc. A recovery disc is of no use. An 'upgrade anytime' disc or whatever they are called that some systems come with, does work. Dell does include a real DVD with vista I believe, contrary to most of the name brand machines. > - Is the 64-bit NVIDIA drivers stable and working well (compared to the > 32-bit ones). I'm getting a "256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor > DVI Capable". The most intense thing I do with my video card is watch > movies (no games, no video production, etc.) With my current machine, > even watching a single movie will cause noticeable slow down afterwards. Nvidia works exactly the same on 32 and 64bit. My mythtv box has been running 64bit for a year now on a Core 2 Quad Q6600. > - Is 64-bit Flash 10 stable and working well? No. It's adobe flash. It will _never_ be stable or working well. > - Can I use an up-to-date Sun 64-bit Java plugin for Firefox (let's say > "up-to-date means" 5.0 or later) Never seen one yet. > - Is there any reason I would install, say, Debian vs. Ubuntu. Of all > the distros I've tried these two remain my favorite. However, Ubuntu has > continued to let me down since it came out. I keep using it because it's > more user friendly for my girlfriend (nice apps for Digital Cameras > etc.) though I have gone back and forth several times. The main issue I > have is that it makes a lot of assumptions that slow your machine down.. > like file system options and running several unnecessary background > processes that bloat up the system. I've had problem with compiz slowing > down video as well. Maybe this won't be much of an issue on the new > machine... or maybe I can just look into a HOWTO for slimming down the > default Ubuntu. Well I am happy with Debian on mine, and have been for many years now. > - Are there any other obvious problems running 64-bit Linux on a Desktop > I should know about? Other than the flash, video codecs, java, and other proprietary software things, nope none I have encountered. It just works. > Your answers will determine whether or not I stick with 32-bit OS for > the time-being. Thanks in advance for your help. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 16:29:26 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:29:26 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4992F72B.5010109-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <4992F72B.5010109@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090211162926.GE15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:04:59AM -0500, Marc Lanctot wrote: > - The applications I use the most: firefox (with acroread, flash, and > java plugins), thunderbird (with lightning and google calendar plugin), > gvim and vim, gcc/g++, make, java, subversion, latex (tetex), pidgin, > and audacious. No idea who writes the plugins for thunderbird (I don't use GUI mail clients). Java is almost certainly going to be a problem, with flash potentially "working" now. Everything else will work for sure. If it is open source, it will almost certainly work. If it is not open source, then it depends. > - If CUPS supports a printer in 32-bit Linux, would there be any issues > with that same printer through CUPS in 64-bit? There shouldn't be, unless you use a proprietary driver. > I'm looking forward to finall harnessing the power of a 64-bit processor :) > > Marc > > -- > In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of > people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. > -- Douglas Adams > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 16:45:14 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:45:14 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4992F450.7090002-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> Hi Marc. 2009/2/11 Marc Lanctot : > My main machine at home has really been slow and I realized I made a bad > purchase 2 years ago. I'm quite sure it was low quality hardware that was to > blame, a HP Pavilion that came with a Pentium D chip which I'd never heard > of. I never figured out if Ubuntu was the cause of any of the slow down but > I do know that when I used Fluxbox over Gnome, or KDE applications vs. Gnome > applications the slowdown was more tolerable. If I left my machine on all > the time.. after 2-3 days it became unusable unless I rebooted it. It became > quite loud too, regardless of how many fans I'd used to try to fix the heat > problem. The Pentium D may run hot, but it's not generally accused of being "slow" (yes, the Core series is better, but the D is still a lot newer than a P2). There's probably some other problem, my first thought would be to run memtest86 ... > I recently ordered a Dell Precision T3400. It's coming with a 64-bit Intel > Core 2 Duo (3 GHz) processor. It's a desktop intended to be a home machine, > user-friendly enough for my girlfriend to use as well. > > In the past I've fought with 64-bit distributions. It's not Linux itself > that was the problem, it was the lack of compatibility for certain key > applications I'd gotten used to, mainly: Flash and Java browser plugins. I'm running Debian amd64 on a Dell Core 2 Quad, it's been great. I _think_, but cannot tell you for sure, that I'm using the 64 bit flash. I _may_ be using the 32-bit with wrapper. Either way, it's been very stable. But I've had a bizarre problem with videos on youtube showing up as a big gray rectangle. No controls, no nothing, and a page reload does nothing. But the next day it'll be fine. > I would like to run Adobe Flash native and Sun's (not Blackdown or > anything else) Java plugin for Firefox. I ran into so many problems that I I'm using Sun's native Java. Haven't used it heavily, but no problems. > - I'll need to shrink the partition with Vista on it to make space for my > Linux partition. I usually use GNU parted. Do you foresee any issues with > this? I did this: you may need to follow Lennart's instructions, but I found that while Vista was unhappy after resizing, it managed to recover on its own. Linux tools allowed me to shrink Vista's partition a great deal smaller than Vista was willing to shrink itself, but if Vista will go small enough on its own it's probably slightly more reliable (and less likely to complain). > - Is the 64-bit NVIDIA drivers stable and working well (compared to the > 32-bit ones). I'm getting a "256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor DVI > Capable". The most intense thing I do with my video card is watch movies (no > games, no video production, etc.) With my current machine, even watching a > single movie will cause noticeable slow down afterwards. I'm using a low-end (6200?) dual head nVidia card, following Lennart's advice from several months ago for compiling the module: I suppose that means I'm using the Linux driver, not nVidia's own. I don't have OpenGL support, but haven't bothered to pursue it as it isn't a big problem for me. I have dual head, that's all I wanted. > - Is there any reason I would install, say, Debian vs. Ubuntu. Of all the > distros I've tried these two remain my favorite. I prefer Debian, and run it with fluxbox right now, but the window manager changes periodically. But since you need a big dose of user-friendliness fast, Ubuntu may be the better choice. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 16:48:48 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:48:48 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4992F450.7090002-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902110848o718f1b4bn318dc75d5c441768@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Hi guys, > > My main machine at home has really been slow and I realized I made a bad > purchase 2 years ago. I'm quite sure it was low quality hardware that was to > blame, a HP Pavilion that came with a Pentium D chip which I'd never heard > of. I never figured out if Ubuntu was the cause of any of the slow down but > I do know that when I used Fluxbox over Gnome, or KDE applications vs. Gnome > applications the slowdown was more tolerable. If I left my machine on all > the time.. after 2-3 days it became unusable unless I rebooted it. It became > quite loud too, regardless of how many fans I'd used to try to fix the heat > problem. > > I recently ordered a Dell Precision T3400. It's coming with a 64-bit Intel > Core 2 Duo (3 GHz) processor. It's a desktop intended to be a home machine, > user-friendly enough for my girlfriend to use as well. > > In the past I've fought with 64-bit distributions. It's not Linux itself > that was the problem, it was the lack of compatibility for certain key > applications I'd gotten used to, mainly: Flash and Java browser plugins. > > Now I've done the whole having a separate Firefox, or having a 32-bit plugin > wrapper, or using open flash alternatives. I'm not interested in these > "hacks". I would like to run Adobe Flash native and Sun's (not Blackdown or > anything else) Java plugin for Firefox. I ran into so many problems that I > decided I wasn't ready to run 64-bit Linux on a desktop and have been > dealing with a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit capable processor. > > I've seen recently that Adobe *finally* released support for 64-bit Flash in > version 10 (beta?). > > It seems like after 2 years there's hope for me running 64-bit Linux on my > desktop. > > My questions are, /from your experience/ > > - I'll need to shrink the partition with Vista on it to make space for my > Linux partition. I usually use GNU parted. Do you foresee any issues with > this? > I've used gparted for this before and never had any issues. It's always a good idea to make sure you create the restore disk as a just-in-case though, it seems many laptops don't ship with one by default and require that you burn it yourself (lame) > - Is the 64-bit NVIDIA drivers stable and working well (compared to the > 32-bit ones). I'm getting a "256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor DVI > Capable". The most intense thing I do with my video card is watch movies (no > games, no video production, etc.) With my current machine, even watching a > single movie will cause noticeable slow down afterwards. > Last time I setup an Nvidia card was around Christmas. My cousin's laptop worked fine, though I had to use a 2.6.27 kernel since it wouldn't compile against 2.6.28 (might be since fixed) > - Is 64-bit Flash 10 stable and working well? Been using it for the last few days now, and it seems that after I mentioned it a few others picked it up as well. The driver is "beta" but runs a lot better than using the nspluginwrapper cruft > > - Can I use an up-to-date Sun 64-bit Java plugin for Firefox (let's say > "up-to-date means" 5.0 or later) > I think I had to jump through some hoops for this. I'll rebuild and see if I can remember what was involved > - Is there any reason I would install, say, Debian vs. Ubuntu. Of all the > distros I've tried these two remain my favorite. However, Ubuntu has > continued to let me down since it came out. I keep using it because it's > more user friendly for my girlfriend (nice apps for Digital Cameras etc.) > though I have gone back and forth several times. The main issue I have is > that it makes a lot of assumptions that slow your machine down.. like file > system options and running several unnecessary background processes that > bloat up the system. I've had problem with compiz slowing down video as > well. Maybe this won't be much of an issue on the new machine... or maybe I > can just look into a HOWTO for slimming down the default Ubuntu. > > - Are there any other obvious problems running 64-bit Linux on a Desktop I > should know about? > > Your answers will determine whether or not I stick with 32-bit OS for the > time-being. Thanks in advance for your help. > Ubuntu. But if you like KDE3.5 stick with Hardy for now. If you're a Gnome user or want to brave KDE4, you could go with Intrepid (I recommend using the extra sources to at least get KDE4.2 in the case) - If CUPS supports a printer in 32-bit Linux, would there be any issues with that same printer through CUPS in 64-bit? Always seem to work just as well with my 32-bit and 64-bit systems. They both seem to have the same drivers AFAIK > Marc > > -- > In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of > people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. > -- Douglas Adams > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 16:53:32 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:53:32 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902110848o718f1b4bn318dc75d5c441768-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <3a97ef0902110848o718f1b4bn318dc75d5c441768@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090211165332.GF15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:48:48AM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: > I've used gparted for this before and never had any issues. It's > always a good idea to make sure you create the restore disk as a > just-in-case though, it seems many laptops don't ship with one by > default and require that you burn it yourself (lame) Well vista on my wife's laptop got very upset after using gparted on the drive, but using a vista install disc to boot and run the boot repair made it perfectly happy again. > Last time I setup an Nvidia card was around Christmas. My cousin's > laptop worked fine, though I had to use a 2.6.27 kernel since it > wouldn't compile against 2.6.28 (might be since fixed) It has been. I am running 180.22 with 2.6.28 kernel no problem. > Been using it for the last few days now, and it seems that after I > mentioned it a few others picked it up as well. The driver is "beta" > but runs a lot better than using the nspluginwrapper cruft > > I think I had to jump through some hoops for this. I'll rebuild and > see if I can remember what was involved > > Ubuntu. But if you like KDE3.5 stick with Hardy for now. If you're a > Gnome user or want to brave KDE4, you could go with Intrepid (I > recommend using the extra sources to at least get KDE4.2 in the case) 4.2 is certainly much closer to being useable now. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 17:07:37 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:07:37 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> Giles Orr wrote: > Hi Marc. > > 2009/2/11 Marc Lanctot : >> My main machine at home has really been slow and I realized I made a bad >> purchase 2 years ago. I'm quite sure it was low quality hardware that was to >> blame, a HP Pavilion that came with a Pentium D chip which I'd never heard >> of. I never figured out if Ubuntu was the cause of any of the slow down but >> I do know that when I used Fluxbox over Gnome, or KDE applications vs. Gnome >> applications the slowdown was more tolerable. If I left my machine on all >> the time.. after 2-3 days it became unusable unless I rebooted it. It became >> quite loud too, regardless of how many fans I'd used to try to fix the heat >> problem. > > The Pentium D may run hot, but it's not generally accused of being > "slow" (yes, the Core series is better, but the D is still a lot newer > than a P2). There's probably some other problem, my first thought > would be to run memtest86 ... I've done that. I've also cleaned the heat sink several times, as Lennart suggested.. in fact at one point it was a monthly thing :) I think it may be because I put a higher-end NVidia card that required a 50W power supply which my casing was not designed for. I did my research on the fans and got the best ones people recommended.. but still it was hot and still it ended up being noisy. It could have just been that the power supply + video card generated too much heat. The funny thing was that during one of my love/hate Ubuntu-Debian reinstall periods I noticed the fan problem suddenly disappeared after I'd re-installed Debian. I thought that was odd. Several months later I put Ubuntu back on after a new release (figuring if there was any bug/issue in the OS or daemons with detection of CPU temperatures it'd have been fixed by now), bam fan issue reappeared after a few days of re-customizing. Unfortunately it also coincided with the changing into a warmer season, and I was too lazy to go back to Debian to re-verify after having customized Ubuntu to my liking again. I realized maybe it had something to do with the video card working hard and generating more heat in Ubuntu, so I scrapped compiz. That got my videos and Gnome working more smoothly but ultimately didn't fix the problem. At one point, it would be quiet for a while but any time I compiled a C++ program, it would send my fan off into a rage, and not go back to normal. Found nothing about it online. That's about the time I started experimenting with the fans. It's been hell. I can't wait for the new machine to arrive. I used to be able to work from home it's become so awkward with this pitiful excuse for a computer .. :( > > I'm using Sun's native Java. Haven't used it heavily, but no problems. Do you know what version? My big test, which 64-bit Blackdown has failed in the past, is running the Text Twist game on Yahoo games. If it doesn't come up or it comes up without sound, then it's not working 100%. My girlfriend and I make a hobby out of that game, so this is a no no :) >> - Is the 64-bit NVIDIA drivers stable and working well (compared to the >> 32-bit ones). I'm getting a "256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor DVI >> Capable". The most intense thing I do with my video card is watch movies (no >> games, no video production, etc.) With my current machine, even watching a >> single movie will cause noticeable slow down afterwards. > > I'm using a low-end (6200?) dual head nVidia card, following Lennart's > advice from several months ago for compiling the module: I suppose > that means I'm using the Linux driver, not nVidia's own. I don't have > OpenGL support, but haven't bothered to pursue it as it isn't a big > problem for me. I have dual head, that's all I wanted. Why would you do that over using the proprietary driver (I mean other than RMS's loss of freedom argument)? Isn't it crippling? Are you implying that the proprietary driver doesn't come with dual head support?! >> - Is there any reason I would install, say, Debian vs. Ubuntu. Of all the >> distros I've tried these two remain my favorite. > > I prefer Debian, and run it with fluxbox right now, but the window > manager changes periodically. But since you need a big dose of > user-friendliness fast, Ubuntu may be the better choice. *sigh* Thanks for all the info :) Marc -- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 17:33:33 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:33:33 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4992F450.7090002-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090211123333.3fe537c0.tleslie@tcn.net> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:52:48 -0500 Marc Lanctot wrote: > Hi guys, > > My main machine at home has really been slow and I realized I made a bad > purchase 2 years ago. I'm quite sure it was low quality hardware that > was to blame, a HP Pavilion that came with a Pentium D chip which I'd > never heard of. I never figured out if Ubuntu was the cause of any of > the slow down but I do know that when I used Fluxbox over Gnome, or KDE > applications vs. Gnome applications the slowdown was more tolerable. If > I left my machine on all the time.. after 2-3 days it became unusable > unless I rebooted it. It became quite loud too, regardless of how many > fans I'd used to try to fix the heat problem. > > I recently ordered a Dell Precision T3400. It's coming with a 64-bit > Intel Core 2 Duo (3 GHz) processor. It's a desktop intended to be a home > machine, user-friendly enough for my girlfriend to use as well. > > In the past I've fought with 64-bit distributions. It's not Linux itself > that was the problem, it was the lack of compatibility for certain key > applications I'd gotten used to, mainly: Flash and Java browser plugins. > > Now I've done the whole having a separate Firefox, or having a 32-bit > plugin wrapper, or using open flash alternatives. I'm not interested in > these "hacks". I would like to run Adobe Flash native and Sun's (not > Blackdown or anything else) Java plugin for Firefox. I ran into so many > problems that I decided I wasn't ready to run 64-bit Linux on a desktop > and have been dealing with a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit capable processor. > > I've seen recently that Adobe *finally* released support for 64-bit > Flash in version 10 (beta?). > > It seems like after 2 years there's hope for me running 64-bit Linux on > my desktop. > > My questions are, /from your experience/ > > - I'll need to shrink the partition with Vista on it to make space for > my Linux partition. I usually use GNU parted. Do you foresee any issues > with this? > > - Is the 64-bit NVIDIA drivers stable and working well (compared to the > 32-bit ones). I'm getting a "256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor > DVI Capable". The most intense thing I do with my video card is watch > movies (no games, no video production, etc.) With my current machine, > even watching a single movie will cause noticeable slow down afterwards. i just installed sidux/debian and a mix of sid/experimental, i installed latest nvidia drivers, and have a dual xinerama 30" HP and 22" samsung, xinerama's together or a 2560x1600+1200x1600(rotated), the nvidia drivers do not support TwinView with one monitor rotated, so no compiz for me :( cause compiz+xinerama isnt possible, so that sucked. other then this, nvvidia 8600 support seemed perfect. > > - Is 64-bit Flash 10 stable and working well? Flash sux by default, thats why its so important for opensource moonlight to crush flash as soon as possible. having said that so far flash 10 64bit seems to work well. On my last hardy install, ibex (on wifes), it does the usuall 100% load crap constantly. It loads up pretty good on sidux too, but atleast it returns to normal after the flash app is finished, and sound seems to work to. > > - Can I use an up-to-date Sun 64-bit Java plugin for Firefox (let's say > "up-to-date means" 5.0 or later) > > - Is there any reason I would install, say, Debian vs. Ubuntu. Of all > the distros I've tried these two remain my favorite. However, Ubuntu has my thought exactly, and after installing sidux/debian, (after using ubuntu fiesty, gutsy, heron, ibex), to my surprize i discovered ubuntu isnt really a distro at all, just a install front end for debian, to bad i found that out this late. also having a fix date release distro (i.e. ubuntu) really is turning out to be the worst distros to use. > continued to let me down since it came out. I keep using it because it's > more user friendly for my girlfriend (nice apps for Digital Cameras > etc.) though I have gone back and forth several times. The main issue I > have is that it makes a lot of assumptions that slow your machine down.. > like file system options and running several unnecessary background > processes that bloat up the system. I've had problem with compiz slowing > down video as well. Maybe this won't be much of an issue on the new > machine... or maybe I can just look into a HOWTO for slimming down the > default Ubuntu. > > - Are there any other obvious problems running 64-bit Linux on a Desktop > I should know about? i was able to get TS video play back to work with the necessary installed codecs pack, even the w64codecs, but i couldnt get it to play some DVD's, i guess they had certain DRM, and i have libcss, libdvdread, etc, but no dice, could play brand new TS stuff from my haupauge HD PVR. I took a 32bit mplayer and libs from my old ubuntu set up (where is was also needed to be 32 bit) to get it (mplayer) to play some DVD proper also shuttling in HD TS files is rough, but i think thats just the state of linux for MP4/TS files at this time :( . i didnt use a chroot, just moved my mplayer from old machine to /usr/bin/mplayer32 on new, and ldd to locate and move those 32bit libs to the /usr/lib32 on the new box, and i can use that 32 bit mplayer for those certain DVD's. if you dont need access to 3-4+GB ram (i do for vmware), not sure need go 64bit route at this time, having said that, i havnt run into any 64vs32 bit issues thus far. (but havnt done anything with java customization yet). i did have trouble with vmware install, but since the new vmware server (web console) suxs, i decided instead to upgrade a free vmware workstation license i got at a toronto linux show a few years back, added 99$ and got a new workstation that installed and runs well. so you might have issue with vmware serevr, but seems like its doable. kde 4.2 gave me nothing but grief (but having said that , Xinerama has a tendancy to expose lots of DE bugs), i dont think its ready for prime time yet. i use gnome, with xfce and flux in a Zephyr, and wanted to try Xephyr'ing kde to, but no point until they get it to work. -tl > > Your answers will determine whether or not I stick with 32-bit OS for > the time-being. Thanks in advance for your help. > > Marc > > -- > In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of > people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. > -- Douglas Adams > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 17:43:03 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:43:03 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <20090211123333.3fe537c0.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <20090211123333.3fe537c0.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: <20090211174303.GG15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 12:33:33PM -0500, ted leslie wrote: > my thought exactly, and after installing sidux/debian, (after using ubuntu > fiesty, gutsy, heron, ibex), to my surprize i discovered ubuntu isnt really a > distro at all, just a install front end for debian, to bad i found that out this late. > also having a fix date release distro (i.e. ubuntu) really is turning out to be > the worst distros to use. Hardly news. That was true of redhat as well when they used to do 6 month release cycles on the redhat releases years ago. > i was able to get TS video play back to work with the necessary installed codecs pack, > even the w64codecs, but i couldnt get it to play some DVD's, i guess they had certain > DRM, and i have libcss, libdvdread, etc, but no dice, could play brand new TS stuff from > my haupauge HD PVR. I took a 32bit mplayer and libs from my old ubuntu set up > (where is was also needed to be 32 bit) to get it (mplayer) to play some DVD proper > also shuttling in HD TS files is rough, but i think thats just the state of linux for > MP4/TS files at this time :( . i didnt use a chroot, just moved my mplayer from old machine to > /usr/bin/mplayer32 on new, and ldd to locate and move those 32bit libs to the /usr/lib32 on the new box, > and i can use that 32 bit mplayer for those certain DVD's. Well DVD's play fine on mythtv on 64bit debian for me, so DVD playback is possible with 64bit. Not sure which player program you use for DVDs. mplayer has always been awful at playing DVDs. ogle and mythdvd are much much better. > if you dont need access to 3-4+GB ram (i do for vmware), not sure need go 64bit route > at this time, having said that, i havnt run into any 64vs32 bit issues thus far. > (but havnt done anything with java customization yet). > > i did have trouble with vmware install, but since the new vmware server (web console) suxs, > i decided instead to upgrade a free vmware workstation license i got at a toronto linux show a few years back, > added 99$ and got a new workstation that installed and runs well. > so you might have issue with vmware serevr, but seems like its doable. > > kde 4.2 gave me nothing but grief (but having said that , Xinerama has a tendancy to expose lots of DE bugs), > i dont think its ready for prime time yet. > i use gnome, with xfce and flux in a Zephyr, and wanted to try Xephyr'ing kde to, > but no point until they get it to work. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 18:13:58 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:13:58 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <499305D9.5080605-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280902111013k61998a60q124808ad5d95838d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/2/11 Marc Lanctot : > Giles Orr wrote: >> 2009/2/11 Marc Lanctot : >> I'm using Sun's native Java. Haven't used it heavily, but no problems. > > Do you know what version? My big test, which 64-bit Blackdown has failed in > the past, is running the Text Twist game on Yahoo games. If it doesn't come > up or it comes up without sound, then it's not working 100%. My girlfriend > and I make a hobby out of that game, so this is a no no :) I'm at work, specific details will have to wait for me to get home. I'll try to answer then. >> I'm using a low-end (6200?) dual head nVidia card, following Lennart's >> advice from several months ago for compiling the module: I suppose >> that means I'm using the Linux driver, not nVidia's own. I don't have >> OpenGL support, but haven't bothered to pursue it as it isn't a big >> problem for me. I have dual head, that's all I wanted. > > Why would you do that over using the proprietary driver (I mean other than > RMS's loss of freedom argument)? Isn't it crippling? Are you implying that > the proprietary driver doesn't come with dual head support?! Because I don't make a hobby of running GLXGears and then cursing if the fps is less than 500. Gimp, Firefox, and aterm are all running really well, I have dual head, what more would I want? I do prefer to use fully free stuff when I can: in this case, I haven't moved to the proprietary driver for a mix of two reasons: it's harder to install and the only reason I care is because I can't currently play crack-attack (a Tetris-Attack clone video game that requires OpenGL) and that just hasn't been enough to motivate me to fight with NV's proprietary driver. I think my DVD playback is fine, but I'll try to check that when I get home. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 18:40:27 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:40:27 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4992F72B.5010109-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <4992F72B.5010109@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49931B9B.6060005@dinamis.com> Marc Lanctot wrote: > - The applications I use the most: firefox (with acroread, flash, and > java plugins), thunderbird (with lightning and google calendar plugin), > gvim and vim, gcc/g++, make, java, subversion, latex (tetex), pidgin, > and audacious. > > - If CUPS supports a printer in 32-bit Linux, would there be any issues > with that same printer through CUPS in 64-bit? > > I'm looking forward to finall harnessing the power of a 64-bit processor :) I'm not sure that running 64 bit Linux would make any appreciable difference in performance for those applications. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 18:53:25 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:53:25 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <49931B9B.6060005-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <4992F72B.5010109@ualberta.ca> <49931B9B.6060005@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <49931EA5.9050303@ualberta.ca> CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > Marc Lanctot wrote: >> - The applications I use the most: firefox (with acroread, flash, and >> java plugins), thunderbird (with lightning and google calendar plugin), >> gvim and vim, gcc/g++, make, java, subversion, latex (tetex), pidgin, >> and audacious. >> >> - If CUPS supports a printer in 32-bit Linux, would there be any issues >> with that same printer through CUPS in 64-bit? >> >> I'm looking forward to finall harnessing the power of a 64-bit processor :) > > I'm not sure that running 64 bit Linux would make any appreciable > difference in performance for those applications. Haha, very good point! I should have mentioned that: a) I want to address large memory (4 GB at the moment, maybe 8 GB or more in the future) b) There will certainly be an appreciable difference in performance in the programs that I'm producing with g++, gcc, and make... I can promise you that :) Marc -- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 19:09:50 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:09:50 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902111013k61998a60q124808ad5d95838d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902111013k61998a60q124808ad5d95838d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090211190950.GH15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:13:58PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > Because I don't make a hobby of running GLXGears and then cursing if > the fps is less than 500. > > Gimp, Firefox, and aterm are all running really well, I have dual > head, what more would I want? I do prefer to use fully free stuff > when I can: in this case, I haven't moved to the proprietary driver > for a mix of two reasons: it's harder to install and the only reason I > care is because I can't currently play crack-attack (a Tetris-Attack > clone video game that requires OpenGL) and that just hasn't been > enough to motivate me to fight with NV's proprietary driver. > > I think my DVD playback is fine, but I'll try to check that when I get home. Well I don't think the free driver has Xv and Xvmc support, but maybe it does. It does not have openGL. The proprietary driver certainly has multihead support, Xv and Xvmc support, openGL, and a few other bits. So it depends what you need. I find the debian package trivial to install, as long as your kernel is supported by the driver version. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 19:12:15 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:12:15 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <49931B9B.6060005-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <4992F72B.5010109@ualberta.ca> <49931B9B.6060005@dinamis.com> Message-ID: <20090211191215.GI15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:40:27PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote: > I'm not sure that running 64 bit Linux would make any appreciable > difference in performance for those applications. Well often you can gain 5 to 10% just from the fact x86_64 has twice as many registers as x86 and that it uses SSE rather than x87 for floating point. Also memory hungry applications can use more than 2GB (or 3 in some cases) of memory each. Maybe that's actually not a benefit in some cases (like firefox). Using more than 3GB of ram in the system also requires PAE on x86, which involves extra paging and memory mapping calls, which on x86_64 is flat memory accesses with no penalty. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 19:21:22 2009 From: joehill-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (JoeHill) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:21:22 -0500 Subject: Deadline Nears to Speak Out on Net Neutrality Message-ID: <20090211142122.246f476d@teksavvy.com> http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/3669/125/ -- J -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 20:38:55 2009 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:38:55 -0500 Subject: NFSLinux Clients AIX Servers Message-ID: Hi, Last night Drew was kind enough to provide me with a pretty cool solution to a problem we're having (NFS proxy) (4 AIX boxes serving up dozens of NFS exports each to a couple of thousand machines.... and somehow everytime a mass of machines try to mount them, apparently the client's do not time out and begin hammering the NFS servers). I'd like to try and understand why the problem actually happens - and the answer could simply be - AIX won't use standardized NFS, but wondering if there is a definitive answer. Thanks for the info - and the post-meeting suds! John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 21:11:27 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:11:27 -0500 Subject: NFSLinux Clients AIX Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090211211126.GJ15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 03:38:55PM -0500, John Miles wrote: > Hi, > Last night Drew was kind enough to provide me with a pretty cool solution to > a problem we're having (NFS proxy) > (4 AIX boxes serving up dozens of NFS exports each to a couple of thousand > machines.... and somehow everytime a mass of machines try to mount them, > apparently the client's do not time out and begin hammering the NFS > servers). > > I'd like to try and understand why the problem actually happens - and the > answer could simply be - AIX won't use standardized NFS, but wondering if > there is a definitive answer. > > Thanks for the info - and the post-meeting suds! Well NFS has lots of variations. V2, V3, V4, tcp or udp, soft versus hard, interruptable, etc. Different assumptions are made by clients and servers, and perhaps when lots of clients connect at once, if they use UDP you end up with dropped packets, and then lots of delays and timeuts and retries for a while. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 21:17:29 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:17:29 -0500 Subject: shopping help needed In-Reply-To: <20090211161823.GC15808-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> <4991A469.8020505@gmail.com> <20090210164905.6A653854F1@sarg.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0902101222m20ab4465rfa6726f0b7945ab9@mail.gmail.com> <1234364862.29499.16.camel@bliss.mt.ss.org> <20090211161823.GC15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <49934069.90302@utoronto.ca> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:07:42AM -0500, Maureen Thornton wrote: >> Has anyone found a WATERPROOF camera that uses Linux - not the other OS! >> We are off to the Caribbean on the weekend and have been shopping for a >> disposable type waterproof camera (read cheap). All I have been able to >> find is the type that you shoot, download via USB to Windows or Mac. >> This will not work with our Linux laptop and we cannot find anything >> compatible. (Other than of course adding WINE to the laptop.) > > Why do you want to camera to run linux? I just want it to work with > linux, which certainly any Canon I have ever used did, either as USB > mass storage, or using pictbridge or similar with gphoto. > > Of course taking the SD card out and putting it in a reader works too. > > Now if you are talking video cameras, then there is the issue of which > codec it uses for the video and what it uses for transfers. I haven't > played with any of those in a while, other than my father's sony which > uses firewire and standard DV mpeg data, which linux has no problem > dealing with. > > As for waterproof, that's a job for the case. You can get waterproof > cases for many digital cameras, often both from the maker and 3rd partys > (often much better than the camera makers cases). > Pentax, Olympus, and (I think) Panasonic make waterproof to 13 feet or more point and shoots. They should all work with Linux as well. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 21:24:43 2009 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:24:43 -0500 Subject: NFSLinux Clients AIX Servers In-Reply-To: <20090211211126.GJ15808-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090211211126.GJ15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Thank you for the reply Len, In our case they are AIX boxes using NFS 3 using soft mounts. The permissions are being granted via netgroup files also. To give you an idea of how big this situation is - all of our Linux client machines have /etc/fstabs that are longer than 200 lines..... which is a big problem in its self. I am counting the mounts timing out on one of the AIX boxes - it is at * mount_name*28 (i.e. that server has mounts starting with 1 to at least 28). (yikes) John On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen < lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 03:38:55PM -0500, John Miles wrote: > > Hi, > > Last night Drew was kind enough to provide me with a pretty cool solution > to > > a problem we're having (NFS proxy) > > (4 AIX boxes serving up dozens of NFS exports each to a couple of > thousand > > machines.... and somehow everytime a mass of machines try to mount them, > > apparently the client's do not time out and begin hammering the NFS > > servers). > > > > I'd like to try and understand why the problem actually happens - and the > > answer could simply be - AIX won't use standardized NFS, but wondering if > > there is a definitive answer. > > > > Thanks for the info - and the post-meeting suds! > > Well NFS has lots of variations. > > V2, V3, V4, tcp or udp, soft versus hard, interruptable, etc. > > Different assumptions are made by clients and servers, and perhaps when > lots of clients connect at once, if they use UDP you end up with dropped > packets, and then lots of delays and timeuts and retries for a while. > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 21:26:08 2009 From: jmiles242-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (John Miles) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:26:08 -0500 Subject: NFSLinux Clients AIX Servers In-Reply-To: References: <20090211211126.GJ15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Forgot to add - the nfs options in /etc/fstab on the clients are: "timeo=100,retrans=5,soft,intr,bg,suid,rw,nolock" John On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 4:24 PM, John Miles wrote: > Thank you for the reply Len, > > In our case they are AIX boxes using NFS 3 using soft mounts. > The permissions are being granted via netgroup files also. > To give you an idea of how big this situation is - all of our Linux client > machines have /etc/fstabs that are longer than 200 lines..... which is a big > problem in its self. > I am counting the mounts timing out on one of the AIX boxes - it is at * > mount_name*28 (i.e. that server has mounts starting with 1 to at least > 28). > (yikes) > > John > > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Lennart Sorensen < > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 03:38:55PM -0500, John Miles wrote: >> > Hi, >> > Last night Drew was kind enough to provide me with a pretty cool >> solution to >> > a problem we're having (NFS proxy) >> > (4 AIX boxes serving up dozens of NFS exports each to a couple of >> thousand >> > machines.... and somehow everytime a mass of machines try to mount them, >> > apparently the client's do not time out and begin hammering the NFS >> > servers). >> > >> > I'd like to try and understand why the problem actually happens - and >> the >> > answer could simply be - AIX won't use standardized NFS, but wondering >> if >> > there is a definitive answer. >> > >> > Thanks for the info - and the post-meeting suds! >> >> Well NFS has lots of variations. >> >> V2, V3, V4, tcp or udp, soft versus hard, interruptable, etc. >> >> Different assumptions are made by clients and servers, and perhaps when >> lots of clients connect at once, if they use UDP you end up with dropped >> packets, and then lots of delays and timeuts and retries for a while. >> >> -- >> Len Sorensen >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 21:34:34 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:34:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <499305D9.5080605-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: | From: Marc Lanctot | | Giles Orr wrote: | > Hi Marc. | > | > 2009/2/11 Marc Lanctot : | > > My main machine at home has really been slow and I realized I made a bad | > > purchase 2 years ago. I'm quite sure it was low quality hardware that was | > > to | > > blame, a HP Pavilion that came with a Pentium D chip which I'd never heard | > > of. I never figured out if Ubuntu was the cause of any of the slow down | > > but | > > I do know that when I used Fluxbox over Gnome, or KDE applications vs. | > > Gnome | > > applications the slowdown was more tolerable. If I left my machine on all | > > the time.. after 2-3 days it became unusable unless I rebooted it. It | > > became | > > quite loud too, regardless of how many fans I'd used to try to fix the | > > heat | > > problem. | > | > The Pentium D may run hot, but it's not generally accused of being | > "slow" (yes, the Core series is better, but the D is still a lot newer | > than a P2). There's probably some other problem, my first thought | > would be to run memtest86 ... | | I've done that. I've also cleaned the heat sink several times, as Lennart | suggested.. in fact at one point it was a monthly thing :) There is something odd about the slowdown you report. Do you know why you feel that it is slowing down? - Is the bottleneck CPU cycles, disk activity, network bandwidth, or something else? We have been inferring that you think CPU cycle are the issue. - if it is CPU cycles, where are they going? The P4D is pretty fast. In fact, CPUs are not getting much faster in recent years. Just more cores. I don't find good machines from four years ago to be slow. + is there heat-throttling going on? The P4D is quite capable of slowing down when it gets hot. + is some useless process eating CPU resources? top(1) might help you discover this. You can run a graphical system monitor program to show you another dimension of this. FWIW, I've had Firefox quietly go into 100% CPU-eating mode. X too. Flash! might be another villain (I don't have it). + is some kernel activity eating CPU. Most tools don't help you figure that out. I've seen that happen too. + are you on Jolt and expecting the CPU to get faster as you do? :-) I recently had an interesting experience. My hard drive was dying. It would cause system slowdowns (I think) because of retrying. No symptoms but speed. SMART scanning found some problems. Touch wood, the system seems much better with a new drive. | I think it may be because I put a higher-end NVidia card that required a 50W | power supply which my casing was not designed for. I did my research on the | fans and got the best ones people recommended.. but still it was hot and still | it ended up being noisy. It could have just been that the power supply + video | card generated too much heat. That might be the case (pun intended). 50W? Do you mean 50W extra? 500W? I put a high-end nVidia card in my HP desktop a few years ago. I could not find reliable information about what power was required. They would suggest an over-all system power supply rating. Stupid since the suggestion took no account of other things in the system. They should specify the maximum power draw for the decice itself. I was able to find out the HP power budget for add-in cards (good on HP). Just to be safe, I installed a larger power supply (but no new fans). I like HP desktops so far. Lennart has higher/different standards. My HPs have been quite quiet. But then I've never bought a P4 (Athlons seemed always like a better choice). P4s do 64-bit really badly. I think many 64-bit operations have to go through the ALU twice. It was a tack on. Athlon 64 and Core 2 are quite good at 64-bit operation. 64-bit isn't as much of a win as one would expect. Code density goes down so there is higher cache pressure. I've run x86-64 on my desktop for three or four years but I don't think that I'd notice the performance difference (it takes a fairly large difference to be noticeable without some yardstick). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 22:14:42 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:14:42 -0500 Subject: Deadline Nears to Speak Out on Net Neutrality In-Reply-To: <20090211142122.246f476d-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <20090211142122.246f476d@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: Joe, 2009/2/11 JoeHill > > http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/3669/125/ > Does this still matter considering the USA government seem to be stuck against it? I think Obama even railed against it in his inauguration speech. This make very unlikely the US ISP are going to be going that way. And if that is the case, can Canadian ISP do it alone? Regards, William > > -- > J > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three. ?Alice Kahn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 22:33:15 2009 From: paulmora-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Paul Mora) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:33:15 -0500 Subject: NFSLinux Clients AIX Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:38 PM, John Miles wrote: > > Hi, > Last night Drew was kind enough to provide me with a pretty cool solution to a problem we're having (NFS proxy) > (4 AIX boxes serving up dozens of NFS exports each to a couple of thousand machines.... and somehow everytime a mass of machines try to mount them, apparently the client's do not time out and begin hammering the NFS servers). > > I'd like to try and understand why the problem actually happens - and the answer could simply be - AIX won't use standardized NFS, but wondering if there is a definitive answer. > > Thanks for the info - and the post-meeting suds! >From the nfs(5) man page: retry=n The number of minutes to retry an NFS mount operation in the foreground or background before giving up. The default value for forground mounts is 2 minutes. The default value for background mounts is 10000 minutes, which is roughly one week. Add this to the mount options you've already got in /etc/fstab. pm -- Paul Mora Registered Linux user #2065 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 22:41:04 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:41:04 -0500 Subject: Deadline Nears to Speak Out on Net Neutrality In-Reply-To: References: <20090211142122.246f476d@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: On 2/11/09, William Muriithi wrote: > Joe, > > 2009/2/11 JoeHill > >> http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/3669/125/ > > Does this still matter considering the USA government seem to be stuck > against it? I think Obama even railed against it in his inauguration > speech. This make very unlikely the US ISP are going to be going that way. > And if that is the case, can Canadian ISP do it alone? ISPs will (like any business) follow what they see as their best interests. If an ISP also has a cable or sat. TV arm, then they will likely see the end of P2P file sharing (i.e.: an anti-net neutrality stand) as a help to their TV delivery business. Likewise the entertainment production firms would see the end of P2P as helping their current business models. The above firms can/do hire lobbyists to make sure law makers are very aware of their ... "concerns". Regardless as to how things go in the US, some major Canadian ISPs / entertainment firms will for the reasons noted above be pushing against net neutrality. Also, you assume the US Government is a monolith, it isn't. Various factions have different goals. For example U.S. Senator Diane Feinstein (from California) is against Net Neutrality, as the following story notes: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/11/feinstein_stimulus_amendment/ Question is how much weight does the likes Ms. Feinstein and other anti-net neutrality people in the US government carry? I hope not enough to stop net neutrality, but... > Regards, > > William > >> >> -- >> J Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 23:03:40 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:03:40 -0500 Subject: NFSLinux Clients AIX Servers In-Reply-To: References: <20090211211126.GJ15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090211230340.GK15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 04:24:43PM -0500, John Miles wrote: > Thank you for the reply Len, > > In our case they are AIX boxes using NFS 3 using soft mounts. > The permissions are being granted via netgroup files also. > To give you an idea of how big this situation is - all of our Linux client > machines have /etc/fstabs that are longer than 200 lines..... which is a big > problem in its self. > I am counting the mounts timing out on one of the AIX boxes - it is at * > mount_name*28 (i.e. that server has mounts starting with 1 to at least 28). Might be one of the few cases where automount makes sense (mounts NFS shares on access, rather than at boot). It can also use a distributed list of available shares, which means much less fstab to maintain on all the boxes. Sounds like a maintainance nightmare the way it is now. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 23:04:50 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:04:50 -0500 Subject: shopping help needed In-Reply-To: <49934069.90302-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> <4991A469.8020505@gmail.com> <20090210164905.6A653854F1@sarg.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0902101222m20ab4465rfa6726f0b7945ab9@mail.gmail.com> <1234364862.29499.16.camel@bliss.mt.ss.org> <20090211161823.GC15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <49934069.90302@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20090211230450.GL15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 04:17:29PM -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Pentax, Olympus, and (I think) Panasonic make waterproof to 13 feet or > more point and shoots. They should all work with Linux as well. Canon has waterproof to 130 feet cases available for some of the point and shoots. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 23:10:27 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:10:27 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090211231027.GM15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 04:34:34PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > There is something odd about the slowdown you report. > > Do you know why you feel that it is slowing down? > > - Is the bottleneck CPU cycles, disk activity, network bandwidth, or > something else? We have been inferring that you think CPU cycle are > the issue. > > - if it is CPU cycles, where are they going? The P4D is pretty fast. > In fact, CPUs are not getting much faster in recent years. Just > more cores. I don't find good machines from four years ago to be > slow. The P4D also throtles if it overheats (which is does easily), up to 50% down as far as I recall. > + is there heat-throttling going on? The P4D is quite capable of > slowing down when it gets hot. Exactly. > + is some useless process eating CPU resources? top(1) might help you > discover this. You can run a graphical system monitor program to > show you another dimension of this. FWIW, I've had Firefox > quietly go into 100% CPU-eating mode. X too. Flash! might be > another villain (I don't have it). Swapping makes things slow, flash spiing at 100%, firefox spinnning at 100%, running sched_idle tasks messing up the schedular (2.6.19 to current seems affected by this very annoying and hard to fix bug). > + is some kernel activity eating CPU. Most tools don't help you > figure that out. I've seen that happen too. Well top and iotop are both handy at times. vmstat is handy too. > + are you on Jolt and expecting the CPU to get faster as you do? :-) > > I recently had an interesting experience. My hard drive was dying. > It would cause system slowdowns (I think) because of retrying. No > symptoms but speed. SMART scanning found some problems. Touch wood, > the system seems much better with a new drive. > > That might be the case (pun intended). > > 50W? Do you mean 50W extra? 500W? I suspect extra. > I put a high-end nVidia card in my HP desktop a few years ago. I > could not find reliable information about what power was required. > They would suggest an over-all system power supply rating. Stupid > since the suggestion took no account of other things in the system. > They should specify the maximum power draw for the decice itself. > > I was able to find out the HP power budget for add-in cards (good on > HP). > > Just to be safe, I installed a larger power supply (but no new fans). > > I like HP desktops so far. Lennart has higher/different standards. > My HPs have been quite quiet. But then I've never bought a P4 > (Athlons seemed always like a better choice). I expect machines to not break. I expect them to have BIOS updates when needed (and not have buggy BIOS's in the first place). HP has been bad on both counts for me (OK, not emachines bad, but close). > P4s do 64-bit really badly. I think many 64-bit operations have to go > through the ALU twice. It was a tack on. Athlon 64 and Core 2 are > quite good at 64-bit operation. Yeah it was a quick hack. > 64-bit isn't as much of a win as one would expect. Code density goes > down so there is higher cache pressure. I've run x86-64 on my desktop > for three or four years but I don't think that I'd notice the > performance difference (it takes a fairly large difference to be > noticeable without some yardstick). It certainly makes a difference to some tasks, but it does depend. I have seen 10 to 20% mentioned on many tests under linux, but it does depend on the task. There are the occational odd case where the cache overhead actually hurts instead, although in the case of x86 with variable length instructions, it is only actually pointer size that hurts code size. The instructions themselves are no larger than 32 code. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 11 23:29:10 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:29:10 -0500 Subject: Deadline Nears to Speak Out on Net Neutrality In-Reply-To: References: <20090211142122.246f476d@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <49935F46.10001@dinamis.com> William Muriithi wrote: > JoeHill wrote: > http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/3669/125/ > > Does this still matter considering the USA government seem to be stuck > against it? I think Obama even railed against it in his inauguration > speech. This make very unlikely the US ISP are going to be going that > way. And if that is the case, can Canadian ISP do it alone? Yes, it still matters because propagandists working on behalf of the entrenched monopolies can sell either position, pro or anti U.S. It is a sad fact that mindless anti-Americanism is an easy sell in this country so all they would have to do is present it as, "We don't care what those stupid Americans do. Canadians deserve a made-in-Canada policy." and the many Canadians who seem to define themselves as "not an American", will lap it up. They could invoke the name "George Bush" to seal the deal. Conversely, if the Obama Administration were against net neutrality, they could present it as, "See? Even The Obama supports our virtuous position." and those same Canadians would lap that up seeing as The Obama apparently walks on water. That is on the propaganda front. On the technical front, nothing stops Canadian ISPs from doing whatever they want, as they have been, because there is only the illusion of competition in this country in telecom and Internet services. By virtue of their taxpayer-funded monopoly positions, the big ISPs have very deep pockets to hire lobbyists and buy politicians (Hello, Sarmita Bulte.) so expecting that they will give up without a fight just because Obama is for net neutrality, however he defines that, is wishful thinking. Even with a well-organized resistance to the might of the monopolists, success is not assured. Many Canadians, if they think about copyright or net neutrality at all, probably think it's some esoteric geek issue that doesn't concern them. It's a standard trick in the propagandists book to drive a wedge between the strongly committed ones and those who are apathetic and portray the strongly committed ones as socially irresponsible, nuts, thieves, "bandwidth hogs", or whatever other negative attribute they can make stick. It's a naturally-occurring pattern. Lions chasing down a pack of wildebeest in those nature films most of us have probably seen are instructive. They don't attack the whole herd. They isolate a few and then kill and eat them. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 02:30:16 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:30:16 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902111013k61998a60q124808ad5d95838d-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902111013k61998a60q124808ad5d95838d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280902111830j746206d4gb01649df74ccc18c@mail.gmail.com> Sorry for the reply-to-self, just wanted to confirm what I said earlier. 2009/2/11 Giles Orr : > 2009/2/11 Marc Lanctot : >> Giles Orr wrote: >>> 2009/2/11 Marc Lanctot : >>> I'm using Sun's native Java. Haven't used it heavily, but no problems. >> >> Do you know what version? My big test, which 64-bit Blackdown has failed in >> the past, is running the Text Twist game on Yahoo games. If it doesn't come >> up or it comes up without sound, then it's not working 100%. My girlfriend >> and I make a hobby out of that game, so this is a no no :) > > I'm at work, specific details will have to wait for me to get home. > I'll try to answer then. I'm using Sun's JRE version 6-07-4 (Debian package name sun-java6-jre). As far as I can tell from my install records it's now a being treated as a standard Debian package and upgraded along with other packages. I don't remember off the top of my head how to determine which repository it's coming from though, but my sources.list isn't showing anything wilder than http://www.debian-multimedia.org . It passes the "Text Twist with sound" test. Fun game. >>> I'm using a low-end (6200?) dual head nVidia card, following Lennart's >>> advice from several months ago for compiling the module: I suppose >>> that means I'm using the Linux driver, not nVidia's own. I don't have >>> OpenGL support, but haven't bothered to pursue it as it isn't a big >>> problem for me. I have dual head, that's all I wanted. >> >> Why would you do that over using the proprietary driver (I mean other than >> RMS's loss of freedom argument)? Isn't it crippling? Are you implying that >> the proprietary driver doesn't come with dual head support?! > > Because I don't make a hobby of running GLXGears and then cursing if > the fps is less than 500. > > Gimp, Firefox, and aterm are all running really well, I have dual > head, what more would I want? I do prefer to use fully free stuff > when I can: in this case, I haven't moved to the proprietary driver > for a mix of two reasons: it's harder to install and the only reason I > care is because I can't currently play crack-attack (a Tetris-Attack > clone video game that requires OpenGL) and that just hasn't been > enough to motivate me to fight with NV's proprietary driver. > > I think my DVD playback is fine, but I'll try to check that when I get home. DVD playback is fine, on both heads (unusual in my past experience). And now I know I don't like totem. gmplayer is irritating as all get-out - but I still prefer it over totem. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 00:58:42 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:58:42 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49937442.9020304@ualberta.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > There is something odd about the slowdown you report. > > Do you know why you feel that it is slowing down? The GUI becomes unresponsive.. ever app lags, almost as if I was out of primary memory and everything is swapping in and out, but top reveals nothing unusual (tons of free primary memory). I have 3 GB of memory and the most I ever use at one time, after days of leaving everything up, is around 1-1.5 GB. > - Is the bottleneck CPU cycles, disk activity, network bandwidth, or > something else? We have been inferring that you think CPU cycle are > the issue. Definitely not network bandwidth. I doubt disk activity unless there's something going on that I don't know about, or Ubuntu is doing something wonky. I have reason to believe it's some interaction with the video card/driver because sometimes when I restart X it lessens the problem for about 20 minutes. Sometimes it doesn't help at all. I'm using NVidia proprietary drivers; at first I used the ones packaged with Ubuntu, now I mostly just download them from the NVidia site and build them. I have a GeForce 8600 GT. > - if it is CPU cycles, where are they going? The P4D is pretty fast. > In fact, CPUs are not getting much faster in recent years. Just > more cores. I don't find good machines from four years ago to be > slow. > > + is there heat-throttling going on? The P4D is quite capable of > slowing down when it gets hot. How can I tell? > + is some useless process eating CPU resources? top(1) might help you > discover this. You can run a graphical system monitor program to > show you another dimension of this. FWIW, I've had Firefox > quietly go into 100% CPU-eating mode. X too. Flash! might be > another villain (I don't have it). top doesn't reveal a process going wild. But if there is something more useful than top it would be good to know. > + is some kernel activity eating CPU. Most tools don't help you > figure that out. I've seen that happen too. Any tools that do? > + are you on Jolt and expecting the CPU to get faster as you do? :-) I've actually gradually cut my caffeine intake to half of what it was last year so if anything I should notice the opposite effect :) > I recently had an interesting experience. My hard drive was dying. > It would cause system slowdowns (I think) because of retrying. No > symptoms but speed. SMART scanning found some problems. Touch wood, > the system seems much better with a new drive. Is SMART an acronym for some program or used for emphasis? I wonder if it is disk activity. What did you use to find this? > | I think it may be because I put a higher-end NVidia card that required a 50W > | power supply which my casing was not designed for. I did my research on the > | fans and got the best ones people recommended.. but still it was hot and still > | it ended up being noisy. It could have just been that the power supply + video > | card generated too much heat. > > That might be the case (pun intended). > > 50W? Do you mean 50W extra? 500W? Sorry, typo, 500W. I was told I needed it for this card, and I think it said that on the back of the card's box as well. > I like HP desktops so far. Lennart has higher/different standards. > My HPs have been quite quiet. But then I've never bought a P4 > (Athlons seemed always like a better choice). I don't like this thing at all. It's always had problems .. repartitioning Windows was a pain and for some reason (BIOS problem?), drives are detected in different orders each time I boot in Linux. One time I'll boot and my Western Digital will be /dev/sda while my Seagate gets /dev/sdb. Next time I'll boot they'll be reversed. Well I would consider selling it to you at a decent price if you're interested :) > P4s do 64-bit really badly. I think many 64-bit operations have to go > through the ALU twice. It was a tack on. Athlon 64 and Core 2 are > quite good at 64-bit operation. > > 64-bit isn't as much of a win as one would expect. Code density goes > down so there is higher cache pressure. I've run x86-64 on my desktop > for three or four years but I don't think that I'd notice the > performance difference (it takes a fairly large difference to be > noticeable without some yardstick). I can guarantee you that the things I run on it there will be a noticeable difference, not just in performance but accuracy of computation. Right now I'm working on solution techniques for large games.. most of the computation is double-precision arithmetic. The more accurate the computations are, the less iterations the algorithm needs to do to ensure a certain tolerance/precision. So... any extra speed I get from using it as a desktop is just bonus. At the moment I need to run my large jobs on remote servers; it'll be nice to run some of my large jobs overnight without worry that I'd be affecting other people's work and that they won't be affecting mine. Marc -- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 02:54:50 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:54:50 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4992F72B.5010109-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <4992F72B.5010109@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49938F7A.6010309@rogers.com> Marc Lanctot wrote: > > I'm looking forward to finall harnessing the power of a 64-bit > processor :) > Well, you'll *LOVE* running vi on it! ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 03:29:52 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (teddymills) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:29:52 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <49938F7A.6010309-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <4992F72B.5010109@ualberta.ca> <49938F7A.6010309@rogers.com> Message-ID: <499397B0.6000505@tmis.ca> Step 89 on the Rules of Aquisition says something about AMD Phenom II processors and Ubuntu server. James Knott wrote: > Marc Lanctot wrote: > >> I'm looking forward to finall harnessing the power of a 64-bit >> processor :) >> >> > > Well, you'll *LOVE* running vi on it! ;-) > > > -- -------------------------------------- Teddy David Mills TMIS Linux System Administrator E: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org W1: http://vger1.dyndns.org/ W2: http://vger1.dyndns.org/wordpress -------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 03:30:03 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:30:03 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902111830j746206d4gb01649df74ccc18c-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902111013k61998a60q124808ad5d95838d@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280902111830j746206d4gb01649df74ccc18c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <499397BB.3000504@ualberta.ca> Giles Orr wrote: > I'm using Sun's JRE version 6-07-4 (Debian package name > sun-java6-jre). As far as I can tell from my install records it's now > a being treated as a standard Debian package and upgraded along with > other packages. I don't remember off the top of my head how to > determine which repository it's coming from though, but my > sources.list isn't showing anything wilder than > http://www.debian-multimedia.org . > > It passes the "Text Twist with sound" test. Fun game. Thanks for confirming that; are you sure that the sun-java6-jre is not installing a 32-bit emulated Java plugin? If there any way to verify this, could you? I think there's a test applet out there somewhere that acts like phpInfo(), ie. it tells you all about your interpreter. Looks like I'm all set. Marc -- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 02:31:20 2009 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:31:20 -0500 Subject: shopping help needed In-Reply-To: <1234364862.29499.16.camel-TYYFDwxCHJP5OPYHOmv4JA@public.gmane.org> References: <495ADF75.3040909@tmis.ca> <495AE3C9.6040208@rogers.com> <4991A469.8020505@gmail.com> <20090210164905.6A653854F1@sarg.ryerson.ca> <3a97ef0902101222m20ab4465rfa6726f0b7945ab9@mail.gmail.com> <1234364862.29499.16.camel@bliss.mt.ss.org> Message-ID: <499389F8.3020800@sympatico.ca> Maureen Thornton wrote: > Has anyone found a WATERPROOF camera that uses Linux - not the other > OS! We are off to the Caribbean on the weekend and have been > shopping for a disposable type waterproof camera (read cheap). All I > have been able to find is the type that you shoot, download via USB to > Windows or Mac. This will not work with our Linux laptop and we > cannot find anything compatible. (Other than of course adding WINE to > the laptop.) > > Any help out there? > Maureen If you get stuck finding the disposal digital camera you want, and if you can find a disposable 35mm waterproof camera, you can take it to a developer that will give you prints plus a cd with jpegs. For example, Shoppers Drug Mart provides that service. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 07:24:24 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 02:24:24 -0500 Subject: PCI-E wireless Message-ID: <4993CEA8.7050807@telly.org> Hi all, It seems that I'm going to be testing a laptop that ships with a VIA wireless card. This chipset is reported to have problems with its Linux driver (whose problems start with ambiguous licensing). So it seems I may be in the market for a wireless mini PCI-E card. So H have two questions; - Intel, Atheros or something else? (Intended platform: Ubuntu 8.10 or 9.04) - Does anywhere in Toronto sell them? The best I've found so far is mail order from Vancouver. Thanks! -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 13:44:58 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 08:44:58 -0500 Subject: Penguicon 7.0 Message-ID: <1f13df280902120544q19e36f24q1e129fd4e4ecf39f@mail.gmail.com> I recommended this convention last year, without having gone: now I'm recommending it after having been there. I'm not affiliated with the convention in any way. http://www.penguicon.org/ Penguicon is a mix of science fiction and open source software (mostly Linux as you might gather from the penguin) for a weekend (May 1-3) in Romulus, Michigan - right next to the Detroit airport. Imagine a guy walking around the parties in the evening with a large canister of soda on his back, dispensing Open Cola (or some Open soda, I don't remember) for free. Imagine large Tesla coils set up on the lawn for an evening display - evidently they "sing" as well as put on a light show, unfortunately my presentation happened at the same time as the Tesla coils. Speaking of which ... while I highly recommend the convention, I don't particularly recommend presenting there. For my presentation, I received ... nothing. Not even a thank you. I was told you have to do three presentations to be comped a membership (which is ~$40 US). Since I put in about 60 hours of work on my presentation, I was unimpressed. Still, my presentation was very well received: and you know they're hardcore when they're staying after a presentation about Window Managers on a Saturday night. There we a lot of knowledgeable and interesting people there. When I booked a room a couple days ago the hotel said they had nearly sold out the convention block. Book soon! -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 14:16:22 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:16:22 -0500 Subject: 64-bit flash plugin for 'nix In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902071615k69024302l1eca670fbd8e3814-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902071611w7878de11nc0496e52e277e725@mail.gmail.com> <3a97ef0902071615k69024302l1eca670fbd8e3814@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902120616s771fe599mc595bea95a2d37c@mail.gmail.com> Just a note for those that might be using different ubuntu/firefox versions On my newer machine with Intrepid, plugins installed to: /usr/lib/firefox/plugins On my machine at work with an older firefox on Hardy it's: /usr/lib/firefox-addons/plugins After removing conflicting plugins (nsspluginwrapper/gnash/etc) the beta plugin works on both machines. Now I can see flash in all it's ad-laden glory (and as an added note, the "flashblock" plugin also works with this beta of flash10) - TJA On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: > NVM, apparently it's still only out as an alpha/pre-release/etc > > For those interested, it's here:: > > http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html > > I'll give it a shot and see if it's at least a bit more stable than > the production-but-wrapper version. > > - TJA > > On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Tyler Aviss wrote: >> I seem to remember reading awhile back that a 64-bit flash plugin had >> been (finally) made available for linux. However, I haven't been able >> to find anything on adobe's website, and Ubuntu et al seem to still be >> using the awful nspluginwrapper hack. >> >> Anyone know if/where the 64-bit plugin is? >> >> - TJA >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 14:48:46 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:48:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: plugger problems Message-ID: Hi all, I have a problem with plugger, the universal firefox plugin handler. I added a handler by hand, with a new mime type. It gets listed in about:plugins but it does not work. Replacing the handler proper with a printargs type executable prints nothing, so plugger does not exec the program. Does aynone here have experience with this ? Hints ? tia, Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 17:01:58 2009 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:01:58 +0200 Subject: Penguicon 7.0 In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902120544q19e36f24q1e129fd4e4ecf39f-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280902120544q19e36f24q1e129fd4e4ecf39f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <92ee967a0902120901q184427dftc0d692dc6602d1d3@mail.gmail.com> On 2/12/09, Giles Orr wrote: > I recommended this convention last year, without having gone: now I'm > recommending it after having been there. I'm not affiliated with the > convention in any way. > > http://www.penguicon.org/ > > Penguicon is a mix of science fiction and open source software (mostly > Linux as you might gather from the penguin) for a weekend (May 1-3) in > Romulus, Michigan - right next to the Detroit airport. It's an awesome con. I made the 2.0. That was a while back, but it's worth the roadtrip, especially if you can fill your car with geeks :-) -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From overholt-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 18:32:25 2009 From: overholt-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Andrew Overholt) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:32:25 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4992F450.7090002-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090212183224.GC9942@redhat.com> Hi, * Marc Lanctot [2009-02-11 10:53]: > - Can I use an up-to-date Sun 64-bit Java plugin for Firefox (let's say > "up-to-date means" 5.0 or later) I use OpenJDK (6) with the IcedTea browser plugin and it works fine on x86_64 Fedora 10 out of the box. I'm told on good authority that the proprietary Sun JDK/JRE 6u12 and up releases now also include a 64-bit browser plugin. Andrew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 19:02:12 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:02:12 -0500 Subject: PCI-E wireless In-Reply-To: <4993CEA8.7050807-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4993CEA8.7050807@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090212190212.GN15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 02:24:24AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > It seems that I'm going to be testing a laptop that ships with a VIA > wireless card. This chipset is reported to have problems with its Linux > driver (whose problems start with ambiguous licensing). > > So it seems I may be in the market for a wireless mini PCI-E card. So H > have two questions; > > - Intel, Atheros or something else? (Intended platform: Ubuntu 8.10 or 9.04) > > - Does anywhere in Toronto sell them? The best I've found so far is mail > order from Vancouver. And does the laptop allow you to swap out the card? Some brands/models do not allow booting with another wifi card installed. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 19:13:04 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:13:04 -0500 Subject: PCI-E wireless In-Reply-To: <20090212190212.GN15808-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <4993CEA8.7050807@telly.org> <20090212190212.GN15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <499474C0.4040000@telly.org> Lennart Sorensen wrote: > And does the laptop allow you to swap out the card? Some brands/models > do not allow booting with another wifi card installed I've been told that this particular one isn't fussy :-P - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From overholt-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 19:27:22 2009 From: overholt-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Andrew Overholt) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:27:22 -0500 Subject: PCI-E wireless In-Reply-To: <4993CEA8.7050807-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <4993CEA8.7050807@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090212192722.GB10250@redhat.com> Hi, * Evan Leibovitch [2009-02-12 02:27]: > So it seems I may be in the market for a wireless mini PCI-E card. So H > have two questions; > > - Intel, Atheros or something else? (Intended platform: Ubuntu 8.10 or 9.04) Intel. I've always had great luck with it and had poor luck with Atheros. This may change now that the driver's upstream. I've bought multiple used mini PCI-E wireless cards from one of the small shops on the north side of College just west of Spadina. Coming Computer is the one, I think. Andrew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 20:59:55 2009 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:59:55 -0500 Subject: just how big is $800 billion Message-ID: <200902121559.56201.icanprogram@295.ca> If my math is right we could allocate $3.5million to each of the 230,000 open source projects currently hosted on Sourceforge.net. That could potentially create one bucketload of open source developer jobs, to say nothing of the wealth creation in the form of new software applications. Oh well, missed opportunity ... bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 12 20:57:35 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:57:35 -0500 Subject: just how big is $800 billion In-Reply-To: <200902121559.56201.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <200902121559.56201.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <20090212205735.GO15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 03:59:55PM -0500, bob 295 wrote: > If my math is right we could allocate $3.5million to each of the 230,000 open > source projects currently hosted on Sourceforge.net. That could > potentially create one bucketload of open source developer jobs, to say > nothing of the wealth creation in the form of new software applications. > > Oh well, missed opportunity ... Yeah, because software is the only thing we need more of. :) Quality, not quantity please. A lot of the stuff on sourceforge is garbage. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 01:49:43 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:49:43 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> <49904E81.7030207@telly.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Alex Beamish wrote: > I'm talking about people who want to buy new computers, installed with > XP, not Vista -- those customers are the ones hearing that Microsoft > isn't selling XP anymore. I don't get that part of the equation. I > think it's agreed that Vista requires 2-3 times more powerful systems; > why not sell XP as the older, slower, less featured product? The trouble is, XP isn't slower than Vista, it seems (from a lack of personally using either!) that the opposite is the case. And I gather there may also be issues of Vista having a smaller set of built-in "stuff on the side." I heard (and this mightn't be entirely true) that they were intending to drop a lot of the extras out because managing releases for them was proving to be a headache. As near as I can tell, the main "more featureful" aspect of Vista is the presence of a whole lot more "chrome-y" things in the UI, which pretty much explains it being bloated and slow, despite requiring massively more hardware. There will doubtless be hardware compatible only with Vista, but that is a sword that cuts both ways in that there's doubtless also plenty of XP-only hardware out there. I'd be curious as to what *really* is a meaningful enhancement to the user in getting Vista... Note that Linux can suffer from the same. The Compiz "ray tracing windows on the sides of cube" thing that recent Fedora/Ubuntu releases have trumpeted may be *cool*, but even though there's *some* utility to being able to see what's going on on all the virtual consoles, it strikes me as a hugely expensive feature that's not valuable enough to warrant the bloat. > I presume that the cost of providing security updates for XP is built > into the cost of selling the OS in the first place. If there's still a > solid revenue stream from people buying XP, that alone should pay for > the security updates and minor bug fixes. The original development > cost for XP must have been fully amortized by now. They don't need to > advertise. What other costs are there? Historically, Microsoft has factored the cost of updates into the cost of selling *NEW* versions of their OSes. Gates had a whole "there are no important bugs in Windows" thing some years ago that nicely expressed this attitude. The cost of deploying this, for Microsoft, has gone *WAY* up, way faster than sales, over the last number of years. Consider that 10 years ago, Windows 98 was basically still a shell atop MS-DOS, and essentially unsecurable, as a result, The shift to having systems where it's even worth *attempting* to secure them, let alone having more-or-less regular security updates is a really big change. I have to "call nonsense" on most of your presumptions, not because you seem particularly wrong, or because they seem illogical, but rather because there's indication of them being untrue. 1. Microsoft was trying to turn the taps off on "XP, the old, obsolete version." If Vista hadn't been the evident disaster it has been, XP would no longer be for sale. They didn't intend there to be any "solid revenue stream" - they intended for people to buy Vista to replace it. 2. I see nothing to quibble about surrounding amortization of sunk costs. 3. I see plenty enough advertising from Microsoft that it seems that THEY believe they need to advertise! > I just don't understand a business that discontinues a product or > service that's still making them money. That's the part I find weird. Frequently odd, yes, but rationales can be found, and ones consistent with the kinds of policies we see coming out of Microsoft. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Doug Larson - "Instead of giving a politician the keys to the city, it might be better to change the locks." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 04:05:56 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 23:05:56 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200902122305.56755.amarjan@pobox.com> On February 12, 2009 08:49:43 pm Christopher Browne wrote: > As near as I can tell, the main "more featureful" aspect of Vista is > the presence of a whole lot more "chrome-y" things in the UI, which > pretty much explains it being bloated and slow, despite requiring > massively more hardware. There will doubtless be hardware compatible > only with Vista, but that is a sword that cuts both ways in that > there's doubtless also plenty of XP-only hardware out there. Vista is a major revision of NT, with a new driver model, new graphics and audio subsystems, and DRM baked into the kernel. A lot of the stuff they were trying to do was overdue modernization, and on sufficiently new hardware, Vista is about as snappy as XP -- not bad considering the DRM overhead. Unfortunately the user experience is an utter train wreck. That's probably partly related to the fact that they threw out about 3-4 years of failed work and started over with Vista, then rushed to get something out the door sooner rather than later. I think a big part of what Windows 7 is supposed to be is a completed Vista (making built-in utilities not look like Windows 95 apps, some semblance of consistency...). Interestingly, the Windows 7 kernel is undergoing similar sorts of scalability improvements to what's been done with Linux over the last few years. I listened to an interview with an NT architect and the sorts of changes he described were eerily similar to many articles on LWN. Apparently they're targeting 256 cores on the server side. There were also some similarities on power management, like allowing non-critical timers to be bunched up. > I'd be curious as to what *really* is a meaningful enhancement to the > user in getting Vista... SMB operations are interruptible. The file manager no longer hangs for a minute or two waiting for the kernel to time out. Seriously. Also an improved security model. > Historically, Microsoft has factored the cost of updates into the cost > of selling *NEW* versions of their OSes. Gates had a whole "there are > no important bugs in Windows" thing some years ago that nicely > expressed this attitude. Indeed, and XP represents a significant drain on resources because it *is* a different kernel than Vista. It's not just the cost of supporting both base OSes and their security patches, it's the added cost on other products, like having to support two versions of IE7, having to backport their shiny new .NET graphics API to XP (at least in a degraded mode because XP apparently can't support the full feature set), and now they've also backported IE8 to XP. However there *have* been important bugs in Windows. XP was so catastrophically insecure that that pretty much all work stopped at MS for a period while they fixed the most egregious problems in a free service pack. Anyway that's wandering rather far afield, but I think it's worth looking into the recent history of Windows because it's such a large part of the computing landscape, and explains what's happening now. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 05:05:49 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:05:49 -0500 Subject: PCI-E wireless In-Reply-To: <20090212192722.GB10250-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4993CEA8.7050807@telly.org> <20090212192722.GB10250@redhat.com> Message-ID: Evans, Intel, any time of the day. Seriously, when dealing with Linux and network, you can not go long with Intel. Regards, William 2009/2/12 Andrew Overholt > Hi, > > * Evan Leibovitch [2009-02-12 02:27]: > > So it seems I may be in the market for a wireless mini PCI-E card. So H > > have two questions; > > > > - Intel, Atheros or something else? (Intended platform: Ubuntu 8.10 or > 9.04) > > Intel. I've always had great luck with it and had poor luck with > Atheros. This may change now that the driver's upstream. > > I've bought multiple used mini PCI-E wireless cards from one of the > small shops on the north side of College just west of Spadina. Coming > Computer is the one, I think. > > Andrew > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three. ?Alice Kahn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 15:25:01 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:25:01 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> <49904E81.7030207@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090213152501.GP15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 08:49:43PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > The trouble is, XP isn't slower than Vista, it seems (from a lack of > personally using either!) that the opposite is the case. > > And I gather there may also be issues of Vista having a smaller set of > built-in "stuff on the side." I heard (and this mightn't be entirely > true) that they were intending to drop a lot of the extras out because > managing releases for them was proving to be a headache. > > As near as I can tell, the main "more featureful" aspect of Vista is > the presence of a whole lot more "chrome-y" things in the UI, which > pretty much explains it being bloated and slow, despite requiring > massively more hardware. There will doubtless be hardware compatible > only with Vista, but that is a sword that cuts both ways in that > there's doubtless also plenty of XP-only hardware out there. Well really vista is a whole lot nicer to work with than XP (and earlier). It has much better ability to quickly find things without lots of scrolling and mouse clicks by having added search ability to most parts of the interface. Like pop open the "start" menu (no longer labaled start in vista), type something, and you get a list of all items in your entire menu tree that match that word. So hit the windows key, type putty and you get a couple of things with putty in the name in a list, and a cursor down or two and enter, and putty is running. windows+r and a command name was an option in the past, but only if you knew the program name exactly and it was in your path. > I'd be curious as to what *really* is a meaningful enhancement to the > user in getting Vista... Well I think the one above is huge. Of course Microsoft apparently didn't think advertising "It's easier and faster to use" was much of a selling point. Apparently "It looks pretty" was. Of course (huge surprise) lots of people (especially businesses) didn't thing pretty was worth $200. It is also much more stable than XP. So far in close to two years, my wife has only had a blue screen of death in the last week, and that was due to installing a free proxy client which turned out to have a very unstable driver and conflict very badly with AVG. After removing that piece of crap it went back to normal. Can't say that for XP. > Note that Linux can suffer from the same. The Compiz "ray tracing > windows on the sides of cube" thing that recent Fedora/Ubuntu releases > have trumpeted may be *cool*, but even though there's *some* utility > to being able to see what's going on on all the virtual consoles, it > strikes me as a hugely expensive feature that's not valuable enough to > warrant the bloat. Of course only a few distributions and users think compiz is a selling point for upgrades (which of course you rarely pay for in the linux world). > Historically, Microsoft has factored the cost of updates into the cost > of selling *NEW* versions of their OSes. Gates had a whole "there are > no important bugs in Windows" thing some years ago that nicely > expressed this attitude. > > The cost of deploying this, for Microsoft, has gone *WAY* up, way > faster than sales, over the last number of years. Consider that 10 > years ago, Windows 98 was basically still a shell atop MS-DOS, and > essentially unsecurable, as a result, The shift to having systems > where it's even worth *attempting* to secure them, let alone having > more-or-less regular security updates is a really big change. The security of windows 98 didn't really have anything to do with running on DOS, since it was actually running its own drivers in 32bit mode not DOS. Any security issues were entirely a matter of crappy coding practices and the idea of making things easy out of the box rather than secure out of the box, so all services were enabled by default and generally not designed to be secure, just easy to use. > I have to "call nonsense" on most of your presumptions, not because > you seem particularly wrong, or because they seem illogical, but > rather because there's indication of them being untrue. > > 1. Microsoft was trying to turn the taps off on "XP, the old, > obsolete version." If Vista hadn't been the evident disaster it has > been, XP would no longer be for sale. They didn't intend there to be > any "solid revenue stream" - they intended for people to buy Vista to > replace it. I suspect people just figure XP is good enough, vista requires more resources to do the same job (it may or may not do the job better, but it does require more computing resources to do it). Moving to vista may require retraining. After all some users need training if the colour of the screen changes. Making the start button a round coloured thing is just way too different for them to comprehend and adapter to without extensive training. This applies even more so to office 2007 which is very very different looking (it works quite well, but sure takes a bit of getting used to for those used to many years of pretty much the same thing every version). > 2. I see nothing to quibble about surrounding amortization of sunk costs. > > 3. I see plenty enough advertising from Microsoft that it seems that > THEY believe they need to advertise! Apple has been growing in market share. Microsoft has a market share large enough that growth isn't really likely, only maintaining status quo. > Frequently odd, yes, but rationales can be found, and ones consistent > with the kinds of policies we see coming out of Microsoft. Certainly maintaining a product when you would rather spend your development efforts making new products doesn't make sense. Especially when you don't get paid by the users for support, only upfront for new releases. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 15:38:06 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:38:06 -0500 Subject: disturbing /. article about Ontario IP addresses Message-ID: <499593DE.4080400@utoronto.ca> Quote: "An Ontario Superior Court Justice has ruled that Canadian police can obtain the identities of Internet users without a warrant, writing that there is 'no reasonable expectation of privacy' for a user's online identity, and drawing the analogy that 'One's name and address or the name and address of your spouse are not biographical information one expects would be kept private from the state.' But why in the world is it valid to compare an IP address with a street address in the phone book?" More here: http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/13/1455256 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 17:32:29 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:32:29 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: <20090213152501.GP15808-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> <49904E81.7030207@telly.org> <20090213152501.GP15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2/13/09, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 08:49:43PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote: > > The trouble is, XP isn't slower than Vista, it seems (from a lack of > > personally using either!) that the opposite is the case. > > > > And I gather there may also be issues of Vista having a smaller set of > > built-in "stuff on the side." I heard (and this mightn't be entirely > > true) that they were intending to drop a lot of the extras out because > > managing releases for them was proving to be a headache. > > > > As near as I can tell, the main "more featureful" aspect of Vista is > > the presence of a whole lot more "chrome-y" things in the UI, which > > pretty much explains it being bloated and slow, despite requiring > > massively more hardware. There will doubtless be hardware compatible > > only with Vista, but that is a sword that cuts both ways in that > > there's doubtless also plenty of XP-only hardware out there. > > > Well really vista is a whole lot nicer to work with than XP (and > earlier). It has much better ability to quickly find things without > lots of scrolling and mouse clicks by having added search ability to > most parts of the interface. Like pop open the "start" menu (no longer > labaled start in vista), type something, and you get a list of all items > in your entire menu tree that match that word. So hit the windows key, > type putty and you get a couple of things with putty in the name in a > list, and a cursor down or two and enter, and putty is running. > windows+r and a command name was an option in the past, but only if you > knew the program name exactly and it was in your path. > > > > I'd be curious as to what *really* is a meaningful enhancement to the > > user in getting Vista... > > > Well I think the one above is huge. Of course Microsoft apparently > didn't think advertising "It's easier and faster to use" was much of a > selling point. Apparently "It looks pretty" was. Of course (huge > surprise) lots of people (especially businesses) didn't thing pretty was > worth $200. > > It is also much more stable than XP. So far in close to two years, my > wife has only had a blue screen of death in the last week, and that was > due to installing a free proxy client which turned out to have a very > unstable driver and conflict very badly with AVG. After removing that > piece of crap it went back to normal. Can't say that for XP. > > > > Note that Linux can suffer from the same. The Compiz "ray tracing > > windows on the sides of cube" thing that recent Fedora/Ubuntu releases > > have trumpeted may be *cool*, but even though there's *some* utility > > to being able to see what's going on on all the virtual consoles, it > > strikes me as a hugely expensive feature that's not valuable enough to > > warrant the bloat. > > > Of course only a few distributions and users think compiz is a selling > point for upgrades (which of course you rarely pay for in the linux > world). > > > > Historically, Microsoft has factored the cost of updates into the cost > > of selling *NEW* versions of their OSes. Gates had a whole "there are > > no important bugs in Windows" thing some years ago that nicely > > expressed this attitude. > > > > The cost of deploying this, for Microsoft, has gone *WAY* up, way > > faster than sales, over the last number of years. Consider that 10 > > years ago, Windows 98 was basically still a shell atop MS-DOS, and > > essentially unsecurable, as a result, The shift to having systems > > where it's even worth *attempting* to secure them, let alone having > > more-or-less regular security updates is a really big change. > > > The security of windows 98 didn't really have anything to do with > running on DOS, since it was actually running its own drivers in 32bit > mode not DOS. Any security issues were entirely a matter of crappy > coding practices and the idea of making things easy out of the box > rather than secure out of the box, so all services were enabled by > default and generally not designed to be secure, just easy to use. > > > > I have to "call nonsense" on most of your presumptions, not because > > you seem particularly wrong, or because they seem illogical, but > > rather because there's indication of them being untrue. > > > > 1. Microsoft was trying to turn the taps off on "XP, the old, > > obsolete version." If Vista hadn't been the evident disaster it has > > been, XP would no longer be for sale. They didn't intend there to be > > any "solid revenue stream" - they intended for people to buy Vista to > > replace it. > > > I suspect people just figure XP is good enough, vista requires more > resources to do the same job (it may or may not do the job better, but > it does require more computing resources to do it). Moving to vista may > require retraining. After all some users need training if the colour of > the screen changes. Making the start button a round coloured thing is > just way too different for them to comprehend and adapter to without > extensive training. This applies even more so to office 2007 which is > very very different looking (it works quite well, but sure takes a bit > of getting used to for those used to many years of pretty much the same > thing every version). > > > > 2. I see nothing to quibble about surrounding amortization of sunk costs. > > > > 3. I see plenty enough advertising from Microsoft that it seems that > > THEY believe they need to advertise! > > > Apple has been growing in market share. Microsoft has a market share > large enough that growth isn't really likely, only maintaining status > quo. > > > > Frequently odd, yes, but rationales can be found, and ones consistent > > with the kinds of policies we see coming out of Microsoft. > > > Certainly maintaining a product when you would rather spend your > development efforts making new products doesn't make sense. Especially > when you don't get paid by the users for support, only upfront for new > releases. > > > -- > Len Sorensen > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > I have Vista on my laptop (came installed). Because I have yet to figure out how to run rdesktop across an MS VPN (and I HAVE tried, I assure you - just keep getting a black screen), I use Vista to remote in to work. Because I run my laptop in a sealed environment (don't ask), I care rather a lot whether the machine boots up to use the external monitor. Vista is a little random in that regard (Debian has been pretty solid, so far). Also, Vista has this endearing little habit of updating while you're using remote desktop full screen. Then, without and visible warning, rebooting to complete the install of the update. Try having your system restart on you without warning while you're trying to work say six or seven times, and see how much you like that system... Cheers, Colin -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 17:56:47 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:56:47 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> <49904E81.7030207@telly.org> <20090213152501.GP15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Collins, > > > been pretty solid, so far). Also, Vista has this endearing little > habit of updating while you're using remote desktop full screen. Then, > without and visible warning, rebooting to complete the install of the > update. Try having your system restart on you without warning while > you're trying to work say six or seven times, and see how much you > like that system... > Can not agree more. Nothing is as annoying as the system insisting on rebooting when you are in the middle of something -local or remote. It actually become tempting to disable auto update all together. Do these guys ever get feedback because I have a feeling we are not alone? Regards, William > > Cheers, Colin > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three. ?Alice Kahn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 18:13:17 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:13:17 -0500 Subject: disturbing /. article about Ontario IP addresses In-Reply-To: <499593DE.4080400-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <499593DE.4080400@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902131013i57410a25sb61c0f3af7b7c1d3@mail.gmail.com> Anyone else notice (it was mentioned in a /. post too) that there have been a lot of pushes to expand gov't power/tracking on the internet which has seemed to be rather in sync with a lot of high-publicity "busts" for illegal porn, etc? Is one prep-work for the other? On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Jamon Camisso wrote: > Quote: > > "An Ontario Superior Court Justice has ruled that Canadian police can > obtain the identities of Internet users without a warrant, writing that > there is 'no reasonable expectation of privacy' for a user's online > identity, and drawing the analogy that 'One's name and address or the > name and address of your spouse are not biographical information one > expects would be kept private from the state.' But why in the world is > it valid to compare an IP address with a street address in the phone book?" > > More here: http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/13/1455256 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 18:54:41 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:54:41 -0500 Subject: keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: <20081105192832.GM5681@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <4995C1F1.8050908@telly.org> Not sure about xubuntu, but ubuntu (and IIRC ubuntu) have a tool for selecting keyboard layouts. And also... the international variant is very useful if you want to do accented characters. I use the "altgr-intl" variant of the US keyboard and there is almost no latin alphabet accented character beyond its ability (ie, ?????????????) - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 19:45:04 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:45:04 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0902131145q30be9c12o5f2e9fa454586e93@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > This is mighty interesting... > > http://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.Asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=PW-%24%24EE-015-18733&FED_ONLY=0&hcode=Au64x22Vv9pVNE3IKtFp3Q%3d%3d The CBC website posted a story on this just yesterday with comments from Evan Leibovitch and Russell McOrmand. http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/02/12/tech-feds-open-source.html I'm curious if anyone's been able to start a community-response template. If so, I'd like to post a copy on my blog. I haven't had a chance to formulate a response yet as I've been busy with work. I've more work and two birthday parties to attend on the weekend, Valentines Day fun and a relatively important meeting on Monday. If there isn't a template available by Tuesday, I'll try to put something together for others to use and/or work from. (That'd only leave one or two days to edit and send responses in though.) -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 13 20:51:27 2009 From: plpeter2006-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Peter) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:51:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: disturbing /. article about Ontario IP addresses References: <499593DE.4080400@utoronto.ca> <3a97ef0902131013i57410a25sb61c0f3af7b7c1d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Is one prep-work for the other? The powers that be have always had the power to obtain addresses and more by phone number (or ip location), using suitable channels. What has not been possible and is being made possible now is the wide scale random use of such information by low level law 'enforcement' to opportunistically 'search' for evidence on an unprecedented level. That is the same kind of search that an officer would conduct on a car stopped for having a nonworking right side brake light, which would lead to the 'discovery' of an opened alcohol bottle or can in the car leading to a fine or an arrest or similar, or that of an officer entering an apparently abandoned house (he would always claim it to be so subsequently) without a warrant to 'search for illegal activity or squatting'. Except now with ip number tracing it would mean that all the computers on the net would be potentially 'suspect abodes', open to search on demand. The powers have always used precedents (successfully solved cases) to mandate an increase in funding and powers. They have also used their failures for that. What is surprising ?! Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 00:24:39 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:24:39 -0500 Subject: Open source Band website software? Message-ID: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> Hi all, A young friend of mine has a (music) band and is starting to actually get off the ground. They've already got a show booked at the Opera House and they're looking at touring this summer. I'd like to help them out, so I was going to register a domain for them and try to setup a website. So my question is, can anyone here recommend a website package that provides features like a calendar for upcoming gigs, photos, embedded media and so on? I am sure something like this wouldn't be to complicated. :) Thanks! Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 00:27:15 2009 From: trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (cameron lord) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:27:15 -0500 Subject: Open source Band website software? In-Reply-To: <49960F47.3020909-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> Message-ID: i dont know of any but looking into the linux web templates might help!> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:24:39 -0500> From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> To: tlug at ss.org> Subject: [TLUG]: Open source Band website software?> > Hi all,> > A young friend of mine has a (music) band and is starting to actually > get off the ground. They've already got a show booked at the Opera House > and they're looking at touring this summer. I'd like to help them out, > so I was going to register a domain for them and try to setup a website.> > So my question is, can anyone here recommend a website package that > provides features like a calendar for upcoming gigs, photos, embedded > media and so on? I am sure something like this wouldn't be to > complicated. :)> > Thanks!> > Madi> --> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists _________________________________________________________________ The new Windows Live Messenger. You don?t want to miss this. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 00:31:41 2009 From: trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (cameron lord) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:31:41 -0500 Subject: [TLUG]Linux CD's? Message-ID: hi all! I need some linux distros for a school project i need: Backtrack 3 CentOS and Fedora 9 (kde) but im not allowed to buy them new or burn them! can any one help? _________________________________________________________________ So many new options, so little time. Windows Live Messenger. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 00:41:07 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:41:07 -0500 Subject: Calgary Open Source Festival - April 17-18 Message-ID: The folks in Calgary are in the process of planning an 'Open Source Festival' for April 17th and 18th, at the Coast Plaza Hotel. Anyone who can see themselves out in Calgary on the above dates should try and check it out. Details to be seen here: http://www.cossfest.ca Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 00:42:08 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:42:08 -0500 Subject: [TLUG]Linux CD's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49961360.1000608@utoronto.ca> cameron lord wrote: > hi all! > I need some linux distros for a school project > i need: > Backtrack 3 > CentOS > and Fedora 9 (kde) > but im not allowed to buy them new or burn them! > can any one help? Try http://linuxcaffe.ca, if you can get the Christie subway you can get the disks that you need ;) Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 01:45:57 2009 From: trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (cameron lord) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:45:57 -0500 Subject: [TLUG]Linux CD's? In-Reply-To: <49961360.1000608-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49961360.1000608@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: hi all! I need some linux distros for a school project i need: Backtrack 3 CentOS and Fedora 9 (kde) but im not allowed to buy them new or burn them! can any one help? oh by the way if someone con mail me the cd's that would be awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!! _________________________________________________________________ Twice the fun?Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 03:06:55 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:06:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <49937442.9020304-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> <49937442.9020304@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: | From: Marc Lanctot | > - Is the bottleneck CPU cycles, disk activity, network bandwidth, or | > something else? We have been inferring that you think CPU cycle are | > the issue. | | Definitely not network bandwidth. I doubt disk activity unless there's | something going on that I don't know about, or Ubuntu is doing something | wonky. I have reason to believe it's some interaction with the video | card/driver because sometimes when I restart X it lessens the problem for | about 20 minutes. Sometimes it doesn't help at all. I'm using NVidia | proprietary drivers; at first I used the ones packaged with Ubuntu, now I | mostly just download them from the NVidia site and build them. I have a | GeForce 8600 GT. There can be problems with caching of memory. Have a look at /proc/mtrr. Is your video frame buffer write-combining? All of it? Is all your RAM write-back? Is your BIOS the latest released by HP? | > + is there heat-throttling going on? The P4D is quite capable of | > slowing down when it gets hot. | | How can I tell? There are applets that show the CPU speed and hence should reflect throttling (I think). The Gnome panel can have "CPU Frequency Scaling Monitor" added on my F10 system, for example. That would tell you the speed, but not why the speed is set the way it is (heat? lack of work?). | > + is some kernel activity eating CPU. Most tools don't help you | > figure that out. I've seen that happen too. | | Any tools that do? I don't actually know. Accounting for kernel time is a hard problem because interrupts "steal" time from the user process that was running. Accounting correctly can add overhead to paths that must be fast so historically that hasn't been done. I imagine that there are now appropriate instruments but I don't know them. vmstat might work. I don't know. | > I recently had an interesting experience. My hard drive was dying. | > It would cause system slowdowns (I think) because of retrying. No | > symptoms but speed. SMART scanning found some problems. Touch wood, | > the system seems much better with a new drive. | | Is SMART an acronym for some program or used for emphasis? I wonder if it is | disk activity. What did you use to find this? Yeah, it is an acronym. Try "man startctl". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Monitoring,_Analysis,_and_Reporting_Technology | > I like HP desktops so far. Lennart has higher/different standards. | > My HPs have been quite quiet. But then I've never bought a P4 | > (Athlons seemed always like a better choice). | | I don't like this thing at all. It's always had problems .. repartitioning | Windows was a pain That's likely a Windows issue, not an HP issue. | and for some reason (BIOS problem?), drives are detected in | different orders each time I boot in Linux. One time I'll boot and my Western | Digital will be /dev/sda while my Seagate gets /dev/sdb. Next time I'll boot | they'll be reversed. Drives detected in different order may well be due to non-determinism in controller detection. Using UUIDs in fstab makes this a non-problem. | Well I would consider selling it to you at a decent price if you're interested | :) I haven't bought P4-based systems so far. I'd have to have a compelling reason to change that. (Hint: I'm a cheapskate.) | > P4s do 64-bit really badly. I think many 64-bit operations have to go | > through the ALU twice. It was a tack on. Athlon 64 and Core 2 are | > quite good at 64-bit operation. I should have said 64-bit integer operations. I would expect (but don't know) that the FPU is 64-bit. Various bus widths might or might not be different too. In serious number crunching, memory bandwidth (not just cache bandwidth) often matters. The Athlon and Intel Core i7 memory controllers are better than previous generation CPUs. | > 64-bit isn't as much of a win as one would expect. Code density goes | > down so there is higher cache pressure. I've run x86-64 on my desktop | > for three or four years but I don't think that I'd notice the | > performance difference (it takes a fairly large difference to be | > noticeable without some yardstick). | | I can guarantee you that the things I run on it there will be a noticeable | difference, not just in performance but accuracy of computation. Right now I'm | working on solution techniques for large games.. most of the computation is | double-precision arithmetic. The more accurate the computations are, the less | iterations the algorithm needs to do to ensure a certain tolerance/precision. | So... any extra speed I get from using it as a desktop is just bonus. | | At the moment I need to run my large jobs on remote servers; it'll be nice to | run some of my large jobs overnight without worry that I'd be affecting other | people's work and that they won't be affecting mine. The x87 FPU (used in i386 ABI) does intermediate calculations in greater precision than the SSE FPU (used in x86-64 ABI). Fundamentally, the x87 FP registers are 80-bit rather than 64. This can make a significant difference in the error accumulation is such calculations as inner product. Other than that, the FP precisions are the same in both architectures, I think. The P4 has SSE if you prefer it to x87. Doing FP calculations in video cards is starting to become interesting. Decent double precision support may be coming (it wasn't there when I last looked). The IBM Cell's latest version does DP better than the one in the Sony PS3, if I remember correctly. But the programming model is quite different from single processors. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 03:28:44 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:28:44 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> <49937442.9020304@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090214032844.GA14556@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:06:55PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: >| > I recently had an interesting experience. My hard drive was dying. >| > It would cause system slowdowns (I think) because of retrying. No >| > symptoms but speed. SMART scanning found some problems. Touch wood, >| > the system seems much better with a new drive. >| >| Is SMART an acronym for some program or used for emphasis? I wonder if it is >| disk activity. What did you use to find this? > >Yeah, it is an acronym. Try "man startctl". He means "man smartctl" -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 04:10:58 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 23:10:58 -0500 Subject: [TLUG]Linux CD's? In-Reply-To: References: <49961360.1000608@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <49964452.9050504@rogers.com> cameron lord wrote: > hi all! > I need some linux distros for a school project > i need: > Backtrack 3 > CentOS > and Fedora 9 (kde) > but im not allowed to buy them new or burn them! > can any one help? > I think that you should explain the scope of the project and why you can't just download / burn them yourself like any other linux user does. You are asking us to be out of pocket for the CDs, our time, and the shipping costs as though we have some obligation to do so.Life doesn't work that way. My gut reaction from reading your initial email is that you have deliberately left out some very pertinent details. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 11:23:13 2009 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 06:23:13 -0500 Subject: Open source Band website software? In-Reply-To: <49960F47.3020909-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>; from linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org on Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 19:24:39 -0500 References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <20090214112313.GA1974@localhost> On Fri Feb 13,2009 07:24:39 PM Madison Kelly wrote: > So my question is, can anyone here recommend a website package > that provides features like a calendar for upcoming gigs, photos, > embedded media and so on? Coincidentally, this project appeared on Freshmeat a few days ago: The actual home page for the projest is: I haven't looked at this at all, so I don't know how good or suitable it is. -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 11:56:51 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 06:56:51 -0500 Subject: World of Goo Linux Version is Ready! Message-ID: <7c50d3570902140356j143131ffu123e9d0d1fc06e07@mail.gmail.com> The Linux version of World of Goo is finally ready for download! It's available exclusively from our site, in three different packages depending on what your computer likes. (tar.gz, deb, rpm) If you already got the game from our site, you can use your same download link to get the linux version in addition to your Windows and Mac versions. A huge thanks to Maks Verver for getting this running on linux, and the beta testers for making sure it runs smoothly! The full game and demo versions all available here. Update: Yes, still DRM free! And works on 64 bit systems too. Source: http://2dboy.com/2009/02/12/world-of-goo-linux-version-is-ready/ -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 12:35:07 2009 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 07:35:07 -0500 Subject: developers derivative of Puppy Linux available Message-ID: <200902140735.08906.icanprogram@295.ca> One of my recent iCanProgram (http://www.icanprogram.com/nofeecourses.html) students has worked up a variation of Puppy Linux which includes GCC toolchain, RCS, Tcl/Tk and SIMPL (http://www.icanprogram.com/simpl). He has been able to install this on a memory stick and use it to do all the iCanProgram: Intro to Linux Programming (http://www.icanprogram.com/linuxProgramming.html) lessons. He has made this version available for others at: http://www.icanprogpup.tuxfamily.org/ I'm impressed at how snappy this works as a liveCD on my old clunker of a machine here. bob -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 14:26:15 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 09:26:15 -0500 Subject: World of Goo Linux Version is Ready! In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570902140356j143131ffu123e9d0d1fc06e07-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570902140356j143131ffu123e9d0d1fc06e07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280902140626t7d5babc7g60f53c771cfb9d3@mail.gmail.com> 2009/2/14 Michael Lauzon : > The Linux version of World of Goo is finally ready for download! It's > available exclusively from our site, in three different packages > depending on what your computer likes. (tar.gz, deb, rpm) > > If you already got the game from our site, you can use your same > download link to get the linux version in addition to your Windows and > Mac versions. A huge thanks to Maks Verver for getting this running on > linux, and the beta testers for making sure it runs smoothly! The full > game and demo versions all available here. > > Update: Yes, still DRM free! And works on 64 bit systems too. > > Source: http://2dboy.com/2009/02/12/world-of-goo-linux-version-is-ready/ For those who are curious about the game but who don't want to shell out the cash or download the demo to find out what it's like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_PyLjJjYDQ There are lots of other videos, but that looks like the best starting point. Reminds me a bit of lemmings: building stuff to rescue not very bright blobs. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 15:04:29 2009 From: glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (Gary Layng) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:04:29 -0500 Subject: World of Goo Linux Version is Ready! In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902140626t7d5babc7g60f53c771cfb9d3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570902140356j143131ffu123e9d0d1fc06e07@mail.gmail.com> <1f13df280902140626t7d5babc7g60f53c771cfb9d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902141004.29533.glayng@sympatico.ca> On Saturday 14 February 2009 09:26, Giles Orr wrote: >to rescue not very bright blobs. The war cry of Tech Support everywhere. -- there's no place like 127.0.0.1 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 20:26:13 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 15:26:13 -0500 Subject: World of Goo Linux Version is Ready! In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570902140356j143131ffu123e9d0d1fc06e07-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570902140356j143131ffu123e9d0d1fc06e07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090214152613.fecbc349.tleslie@tcn.net> On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 06:56:51 -0500 Michael Lauzon wrote: > The Linux version of World of Goo is finally ready for download! It's > available exclusively from our site, in three different packages > depending on what your computer likes. (tar.gz, deb, rpm) > > If you already got the game from our site, you can use your same > download link to get the linux version in addition to your Windows and > Mac versions. A huge thanks to Maks Verver for getting this running on > linux, and the beta testers for making sure it runs smoothly! The full > game and demo versions all available here. > > Update: Yes, still DRM free! And works on 64 bit systems too. > i downloaded the deb file, on install, said "package architecture (i386) does not match system (amd64)" so it doesnt seem to be 64bit, unless demo is 32bit only, and have to purchase to get 64bit. ? -tl > Source: http://2dboy.com/2009/02/12/world-of-goo-linux-version-is-ready/ > > -- > Sincerely, > > Michael Lauzon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 21:37:00 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 16:37:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: World of Goo Linux Version is Ready! In-Reply-To: <20090214152613.fecbc349.tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570902140356j143131ffu123e9d0d1fc06e07@mail.gmail.com> <20090214152613.fecbc349.tleslie@tcn.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Feb 2009, ted leslie wrote: > i downloaded the deb file, on install, said > "package architecture (i386) does not match system (amd64)" > > so it doesnt seem to be 64bit, unless demo is 32bit only, > and have to purchase to get 64bit. ? You could try --force-architecture but you would probably need 32bit compatibiity libraries installed. I've successfully used this a number of times before. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 14 23:01:25 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 18:01:25 -0500 Subject: Open source Band website software? In-Reply-To: <20090214112313.GA1974@localhost> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <20090214112313.GA1974@localhost> Message-ID: <49974D45.3060102@dinamis.com> Scott Allen wrote: > On Fri Feb 13,2009 07:24:39 PM Madison Kelly wrote: >> So my question is, can anyone here recommend a website package that >> provides features like a calendar for upcoming gigs, photos, embedded >> media and so on? > > Coincidentally, this project appeared on Freshmeat a few days ago: > It's just what the world needs, Yet Another CMS, especially one written in PHP and using MySQL. :) -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 15 00:23:13 2009 From: rdice-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Dice) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:23:13 -0500 Subject: Open source Band website software? In-Reply-To: <49960F47.3020909-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <5bef4baf0902141623s6fcb8a60gc8599310a166e1ff@mail.gmail.com> Hi Madi, Have you and/or your friend considered Myspace? While it's not open source per se, and while personally I find it pretty awful, it is where all the bands in the world have their web space. There are a lot of plugins that are tailored to bands, e-newletter distribution, audio, photos, tour calendars, etc. If what your friend cares about is being a successful band, Myspace is a pretty much a must-do. Cheers, - Richard On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > A young friend of mine has a (music) band and is starting to actually get > off the ground. They've already got a show booked at the Opera House and > they're looking at touring this summer. I'd like to help them out, so I was > going to register a domain for them and try to setup a website. > > So my question is, can anyone here recommend a website package that > provides features like a calendar for upcoming gigs, photos, embedded media > and so on? I am sure something like this wouldn't be to complicated. :) > > Thanks! > > Madi > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 15 02:45:05 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:45:05 -0500 Subject: Open source Band website software? In-Reply-To: <5bef4baf0902141623s6fcb8a60gc8599310a166e1ff-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <5bef4baf0902141623s6fcb8a60gc8599310a166e1ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Richard Dice wrote: > Hi Madi, > > Have you and/or your friend considered Myspace? While it's not open source > per se, and while personally I find it pretty awful, it is where all the > bands in the world have their web space. There are a lot of plugins that > are tailored to bands, e-newletter distribution, audio, photos, tour > calendars, etc. > > If what your friend cares about is being a successful band, Myspace is a > pretty much a must-do. Similar is true for Facebook, too; I'm not quite sure where preference would lie between the two. As you say, it's not "open source", and the services are in many ways *quite* proprietary, however, Facebook and Myspace have become "shared social platforms" and there are specific merits to using common platforms of that sort over putting up your own individual "web space" where it may NOT interoperate easily with peoples' calendars and such. It's definitely worth thinking about: there are also some substantial demerits to using Myspace/Facebook, including the "RMS head exploding" property. (I expect he's *very* unkeen on their platforms!) -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Mike Ditka - "If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have given us arms." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 15 03:37:33 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 22:37:33 -0500 Subject: World of Goo Linux Version is Ready! In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570902140356j143131ffu123e9d0d1fc06e07-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570902140356j143131ffu123e9d0d1fc06e07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090214223733.1b3712b0.tleslie@tcn.net> this game is insanely cool. I can't help but think it has the wrong pricing model however. Probably better to have sold it for 9.99, and then expansion packs. I will probably drop the 20$ on it, none the less. thanks for the heads up about it. My brother is a automotive engineer in Detroit, and he will get a huge kick out of this game, I know already am. -tl On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 06:56:51 -0500 Michael Lauzon wrote: > The Linux version of World of Goo is finally ready for download! It's > available exclusively from our site, in three different packages > depending on what your computer likes. (tar.gz, deb, rpm) > > If you already got the game from our site, you can use your same > download link to get the linux version in addition to your Windows and > Mac versions. A huge thanks to Maks Verver for getting this running on > linux, and the beta testers for making sure it runs smoothly! The full > game and demo versions all available here. > > Update: Yes, still DRM free! And works on 64 bit systems too. > > Source: http://2dboy.com/2009/02/12/world-of-goo-linux-version-is-ready/ > > -- > Sincerely, > > Michael Lauzon > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 15 16:32:46 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 11:32:46 -0500 Subject: Open source Band website software? In-Reply-To: <49960F47.3020909-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > A young friend of mine has a (music) band and is starting to actually get > off the ground. They've already got a show booked at the Opera House and > they're looking at touring this summer. I'd like to help them out, so I was > going to register a domain for them and try to setup a website. > > So my question is, can anyone here recommend a website package that > provides features like a calendar for upcoming gigs, photos, embedded media > and so on? I am sure something like this wouldn't be to complicated. :) > > Thanks! > > Madi > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > ModX is a FOSS CMS. I've only had a bit of exposure to it myself (recently inherited a site that uses it) but it seems decent for a free CMS. http://modxcms.com/features.html It's also extensible with addons for calendar support, etc, so it should be able to do most of what you want (you could always use multiple packages for various functions too). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 15 23:14:37 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:14:37 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> Greetings fellow Linux users, My HP-Compaq laptop recently died and wanted to buy a new one, also with HP. In fact I buy a lot of products at HP such as printers, scanners, etc.. I was about to purchase a business class HP laptop when the product information specialist informed me ALL HARDWARE WARRANTIES ARE VOID THE SECOND YOU INSTALL LINUX. My first impression was that I was speaking to a under-trained call centre op so asked to speak with someone else. After speaking with four reps, two technicians, and the client relations department, I realized it was their policy. I sent a polite and constructive e-mail to HP President Mark Hurd to reconsider this policy. His office sent me an e-mail and said they are reviewing my request. One technician offered a work-around, in case of a hardware defect, re-install Windows and send it in. So, in case of a defective power supply or CPU fan, how does one install Windows? Linux applications are used throughout North America in the business world, from servers, to supply management logistics, to database management, etc.. How does HP function in the face of this policy? Companies like ASUS and Toshiba vowed to stand by their hardware regardless of what OS I use (I called and checked), but I want the HP--but not if they do not back their product. Considering HP sponsors a lot of linux applications and even pre-installs some of their machines with Linux, is this not a double standard? Personally, I would like to take this issue to the papers. My case number with HP is #80216227703 Views would be appreciated. regards, Ib Khider -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 15 18:46:45 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 13:46:45 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <1234739677.11896.33.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49986315.7040707@rogers.com> I. Khider wrote: > Considering HP sponsors a lot of linux applications and even > pre-installs some of their machines with Linux, is this not a double > standard? > > Personally, I would like to take this issue to the papers. > > My case number with HP is #80216227703 > > Views would be appreciated. > > regards, > > Ib Khider > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > FWIW, I recently read an article about how HP is no longer supplying Linux on netbooks, even though that market is doing very well for other brands. It sounds like a certain software company, which shall remain nameless, is up to their old tricks again. Incidentally, in a large company like HP it's possible for one division to work against the interests of another, as happened with IBM & OS/2. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 15 20:24:10 2009 From: trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (cameron lord) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 15:24:10 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <49986315.7040707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49986315.7040707@rogers.com> Message-ID: That aint right...........Everything that i have is SUN microsystems anyways so i dont know about this does microsoft do the same thing with their winmodems and win-hardware?> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 13:46:45 -0500> From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org> Subject: Re: [TLUG]: anti-Linux Policy at HP> > I. Khider wrote:> > Considering HP sponsors a lot of linux applications and even> > pre-installs some of their machines with Linux, is this not a double> > standard?> >> > Personally, I would like to take this issue to the papers. > >> > My case number with HP is #80216227703> >> > Views would be appreciated. > >> > regards, > >> > Ib Khider> >> >> > --> > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/> > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns> > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists> > > FWIW, I recently read an article about how HP is no longer supplying> Linux on netbooks, even though that market is doing very well for other> brands. It sounds like a certain software company, which shall remain> nameless, is up to their old tricks again. Incidentally, in a large> company like HP it's possible for one division to work against the> interests of another, as happened with IBM & OS/2.> > > -- > Use OpenOffice.org > --> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Messenger. Multitasking at its finest. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 15 20:29:20 2009 From: trieocorp-PkbjNfxxIARBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (cameron lord) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 15:29:20 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <49986315.7040707-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49986315.7040707@rogers.com> Message-ID: that anti linux thing is not right.........as in its not good does microsoft do the same thing withe their winmodems and other win-hardware? GO Linux!! from: cameron http://blackhat.hopto.org/ _________________________________________________________________ Twice the fun?Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andzy-bYF1QM81rroS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 01:28:09 2009 From: andzy-bYF1QM81rroS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 20:28:09 -0500 Subject: Lenny! Message-ID: <1234747689.613.1300544541@webmail.messagingengine.com> Lenny is released as of yesterday, Valentine's Day. To show the love, the Debian.org homepage is updated with a pretty, new Debian 5.0 graphic. http://debian.org ------------------- Andrew Malcolmson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 01:35:08 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 20:35:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <1234739677.11896.33.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: | From: I. Khider | I was about to purchase a business class HP laptop when the product | information specialist informed me ALL HARDWARE WARRANTIES ARE VOID THE | SECOND YOU INSTALL LINUX. Unless it says that in the actual warranty, I imagine that this position is unsupportable. On the other hand, what tech support says is, in a practical sense, effectively how things go. For example, I have an Acer notebook. The published specs say that it can handle up to 4G of RAM. In fact it cannot. Evidence suggests taht this is a BIOS bug. I have found no way to deal with this through their support system. I'm unwilling to use the court system. I've not really had great experience with warranty support when the problem is not with my particular machine but with all of them. The best that they know how to do is give you a replacement and if the replacement is going to have the same flaw, what is the point? Unfortunately, tech support and engineering just don't talk for consumer products or services. | My first impression was that I was speaking to | a under-trained call centre op so asked to speak with someone else. | After speaking with four reps, two technicians, and the client relations | department, I realized it was their policy. I sent a polite and | constructive e-mail to HP President Mark Hurd to reconsider this policy. | His office sent me an e-mail and said they are reviewing my request. A reasonable position (from their standpoint) would be if the problem cannot be demonstrated in Windows, then it isn't a problem. They may feel that they don't have the resources to support other OSes. I actually think that "PCness" is sufficiently well defined that you could find hardware to be out of spec. without Windows tripping over the problem. | One technician offered a work-around, in case of a hardware defect, | re-install Windows and send it in. So, in case of a defective power | supply or CPU fan, how does one install Windows? I always leave MS Windows on the systems that I buy with Windows (hard to avoid). This may be stupid but it does let me apply firmware updates that are delivered as Windows packages. | Personally, I would like to take this issue to the papers. HP has (had?) internal Linux advocates who might help first. Bdale Garbee http://www.gag.com/~bdale/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bdale_Garbee told me some years ago that the consumer-class stuff had no Linux support but that business-class was more likely to. The "papers" are particularly bad at this kind of thing. | My case number with HP is #80216227703 Can we do anything with this number? I assume that we cannot due to privacy concerns. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 03:49:11 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 22:49:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: SMART [was Re: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux] In-Reply-To: References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <1f13df280902110845wf7b68abp1f3211985f06ab6c@mail.gmail.com> <499305D9.5080605@ualberta.ca> <49937442.9020304@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | | From: Marc Lanctot | | > I recently had an interesting experience. My hard drive was dying. | | > It would cause system slowdowns (I think) because of retrying. No | | > symptoms but speed. SMART scanning found some problems. Touch wood, | | > the system seems much better with a new drive. | | | | Is SMART an acronym for some program or used for emphasis? I wonder if it is | | disk activity. What did you use to find this? | | Yeah, it is an acronym. Try "man startctl". | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Monitoring,_Analysis,_and_Reporting_Technology As mentioned by William O'Higgins Witteman, s/startctl/smartctl/ SMART is hard to figure out from the LINUX command documentation. Here's what I have used: /usr/sbin/smartctl -a /dev/sda Tells you lots of stuff. /usr/sbin/smartctl -t long /dev/sda Starts a long test self-test. The test is done autonomously by the drive. This apparently does not interfere with the computer using the drive for other purposes. Takes hours. /usr/sbin/smartctl -l selftest /dev/sda reports the result of self-tests. I recently found a problem with a Seagate drive. After that, I used stand-alone test software (SeaTools for DOS) to figure out more. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 10:33:41 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:33:41 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <1234780421.18993.12.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello Hugh, In light of your post I think it would be pertinent to add Toshiba's take on the problem. The Toshiba rep said that any smart technician, when faced with a computer with an alternate operating system, would simply switch the hard drive and resume diagnostics. That answer made sense to me. Someone else mentioned doing a 'level two diagnostics' which meant a computer can be diagnosed without going through the OS. It seems that alternate ways exist for manufacturers to test and back their product. All I want is HP's backing for their hardware. As for software, of course I cannot ask for that. My case number can be quoted just to prove my grievance exists. Someone said that Linux distros like Ubuntu have a bug that burn out hard drives quicker and that is why companies will not back machines that run them. I am trying to figure out how Gentoo works and am told that distro is a lot better for my hardware. I do not know as I am still a 'newbie'--but asking for a company to not sell me a lemon is not asking for the moon. I may sound bitter, and I am, I think HP's policy is gratuitous and without merit. I have a lot to learn yet, but my gut tells me Linux is good, Windows is bad. "Four legs good, two legs baaaaaaaad." -George Orwell, Animal Farm. -Ib- On Sun, 2009-02-15 at 20:35 -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: I. Khider > > | I was about to purchase a business class HP laptop when the product > | information specialist informed me ALL HARDWARE WARRANTIES ARE VOID THE > | SECOND YOU INSTALL LINUX. > > Unless it says that in the actual warranty, I imagine that this position > is unsupportable. > > On the other hand, what tech support says is, in a practical sense, > effectively how things go. > > For example, I have an Acer notebook. The published specs say that it > can handle up to 4G of RAM. In fact it cannot. Evidence suggests > taht this is a BIOS bug. I have found no way to deal with this > through their support system. I'm unwilling to use the court system. > > I've not really had great experience with warranty support when the > problem is not with my particular machine but with all of them. The > best that they know how to do is give you a replacement and if the > replacement is going to have the same flaw, what is the point? > > Unfortunately, tech support and engineering just don't talk for > consumer products or services. > > | My first impression was that I was speaking to > | a under-trained call centre op so asked to speak with someone else. > | After speaking with four reps, two technicians, and the client relations > | department, I realized it was their policy. I sent a polite and > | constructive e-mail to HP President Mark Hurd to reconsider this policy. > | His office sent me an e-mail and said they are reviewing my request. > > A reasonable position (from their standpoint) would be if the problem > cannot be demonstrated in Windows, then it isn't a problem. They may > feel that they don't have the resources to support other OSes. > > I actually think that "PCness" is sufficiently well defined that you > could find hardware to be out of spec. without Windows tripping over > the problem. > > | One technician offered a work-around, in case of a hardware defect, > | re-install Windows and send it in. So, in case of a defective power > | supply or CPU fan, how does one install Windows? > > I always leave MS Windows on the systems that I buy with Windows (hard > to avoid). This may be stupid but it does let me apply firmware > updates that are delivered as Windows packages. > > | Personally, I would like to take this issue to the papers. > > HP has (had?) internal Linux advocates who might help first. Bdale > Garbee > http://www.gag.com/~bdale/ > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bdale_Garbee > told me some years ago that the consumer-class stuff had no Linux > support but that business-class was more likely to. > > The "papers" are particularly bad at this kind of thing. > > | My case number with HP is #80216227703 > > Can we do anything with this number? I assume that we cannot due to > privacy concerns. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 13:44:03 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:44:03 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <1234780421.18993.12.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1234780421.18993.12.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49996DA3.9030000@rogers.com> I. Khider wrote: > Hello Hugh, > > In light of your post I think it would be pertinent to add Toshiba's > take on the problem. The Toshiba rep said that any smart technician, > when faced with a computer with an alternate operating system, would > simply switch the hard drive and resume diagnostics. That answer made > sense to me. Someone else mentioned doing a 'level two diagnostics' > which meant a computer can be diagnosed without going through the OS. > It seems that alternate ways exist for manufacturers to test and back > their product. > > All I want is HP's backing for their hardware. As for software, of > course I cannot ask for that. > One suggestion I've heard, is to send the computer back without the hard drive and a note saying it was removed due to confidential content. Any shop servicing computers should have a drive available. It's sounds, to me, more like MS got to them. -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 16:04:01 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:04:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | I always leave MS Windows on the systems that I buy with Windows (hard | to avoid). This may be stupid but it does let me apply firmware | updates that are delivered as Windows packages. Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I install Linux and can choose either Linux of Windows at boot time. I almost never *use* Windows on these boxes other than for maintenance (firmware updates and Windows updates). I've found Windows Vista to be cantankerous about this but it will behave if you do things just the right way. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 16:54:38 2009 From: james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (James Knott) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:54:38 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49999A4E.8030701@rogers.com> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I've found Windows Vista to be cantankerous about this but it will > behave if you do things just the right way. > Such as animal sacrifices under a full moon? ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 19:29:52 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:29:52 -0500 Subject: "Nepomuk" and KDE4 Message-ID: <3a97ef0902161129p136279ctea2d3d9eda5cc5a3@mail.gmail.com> FYI, If you're running KDE4 you'll probably want to disable this. It has an annoying tendency to consume large amount of CPU/IO, and various components require running under a Java VM. Lame http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?format=multiple&id=161380 I caught it on my system when it started throwing up weird java-related segfaults. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From andzy-bYF1QM81rroS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 22:58:48 2009 From: andzy-bYF1QM81rroS+FvcfC7Uqw at public.gmane.org (Andrew Malcolmson) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:58:48 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <1234780421.18993.12.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1234780421.18993.12.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <1234825128.26818.1300739101@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:33:41 -0500, "I. Khider" said: [snip] > I may sound bitter, and I am, I think HP's policy is gratuitous and > without merit. I have a lot to learn yet, but my gut tells me Linux is > good, Windows is bad. Nice use of 'gratuitous'. Don't see that in a sentence too often. HP's position in this case is unreasonable. However, if you wanted to buy a ProLiant server instead of a laptop, HP would pre-install Ubuntu for you: http://blogs.computerworld.com/ubuntu_partners_with_hp_on_servers ------------------- Andrew Malcolmson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 16 23:31:32 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 18:31:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <49996DA3.9030000-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1234780421.18993.12.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49996DA3.9030000@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Feb 2009, James Knott wrote: > One suggestion I've heard, is to send the computer back without the hard > drive and a note saying it was removed due to confidential content. Any That's a very good suggestion, and for most of us would be true anyway. I have never sent a HDD with user info to a repair department. Too much potential for info leakage. > shop servicing computers should have a drive available. It's sounds, to > me, more like MS got to them. I suspect, as others have noted, that different business units are operating independently. HP _certifies_ some servers for use with Debian so at least one of their business units has some Linux-foo. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 17 00:58:24 2009 From: gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Glen Strom) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:58:24 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1234780421.18993.12.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49996DA3.9030000@rogers.com> Message-ID: <499A0BB0.7060507@teksavvy.com> Robert Brockway wrote: > > I suspect, as others have noted, that different business units are > operating independently. HP _certifies_ some servers for use with > Debian so at least one of their business units has some Linux-foo. > > Cheers, > > Rob > I bought an HP xw4600 workstation last August. You get to choose between Vista, an XP downgrade from Vista, or Red Hat. I've called the workstation group for assistance and the automated answering system asks if you're in a Linux environment so you can be connected to the right technicians. -- Glen Strom gstrom-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 17 02:54:34 2009 From: mr.mcgregor-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (John McGregor) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:54:34 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <499A0BB0.7060507-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1234780421.18993.12.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49996DA3.9030000@rogers.com> <499A0BB0.7060507@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <499A26EA.4010504@rogers.com> I think that this whole conversation may be moot. I read all the on-line warranty addenda information for HP notebooks available on the HP site and nowhere is an OS mentioned in conjunction with a hardware warranty. http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DocumentIndex.jsp?contentGroup=NT_CT_Warranty&lang=en&cc=us&prodSeriesId=3687778&prodTypeId=321957&docIndexId=64184 In the main warranty document it states that the software portion of the warranty may be voided if the consumer installs freeware, third party proprietary software or open soure operating systems. http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/warranty.do Ib Khider: I'd say that your next move should be to send copies of both warranty statements to HP and point out that the first document makes no reference to operating systems at all while the second does but only so far as how the installation of open source software will affect the warranties for any software pre-installed by HP. HTH John (IANAL) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 17 14:16:08 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:16:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: <20090206143750.GE26063-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090205181927.GA26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4416.173.34.8.54.1233863480.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20090206143750.GE26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Feb 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > Latex looks scary, but I think most people highly overestimate > the difficulty of using it. It fails at the instant > gratification that a WYSIWYG tool gives you, There is LyX with WYSIWYM which may close the gap. > but then again people were much more productice with > wordperfect 5.1 with a text display than they are with word > because they spend too much time playing with formating. I used Word 5 for DOS (menu on bottom) and for me it is one of the best word processor ever. :-) I did layouts for few booklet using it. That said, I do like the WP concept where formatting can generally be applied to any text (open and closing code). -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 17 18:22:29 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:22:29 -0500 Subject: Open source Band website software? In-Reply-To: References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <5bef4baf0902141623s6fcb8a60gc8599310a166e1ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0902171022k226bbb59g592ae8c890542944@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: > On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Richard Dice wrote: >> Hi Madi, >> >> Have you and/or your friend considered Myspace? While it's not open source >> per se, and while personally I find it pretty awful, it is where all the >> bands in the world have their web space. There are a lot of plugins that >> are tailored to bands, e-newletter distribution, audio, photos, tour >> calendars, etc. >> >> If what your friend cares about is being a successful band, Myspace is a >> pretty much a must-do. > > Similar is true for Facebook, too; I'm not quite sure where preference > would lie between the two. I would take a good hard look at the TOS first; Facebook recently made changes to theirs that have a lot of people upset as regards who "owns" information posted. I do know however their TOS state specifically that they may use ANYTHING you post without compensation. I don't know or use Myspace at all so I can't speak to their terms. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 17 18:29:18 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:29:18 -0500 Subject: Open source Band website software? In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0902171022k226bbb59g592ae8c890542944-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <5bef4baf0902141623s6fcb8a60gc8599310a166e1ff@mail.gmail.com> <99a6c38f0902171022k226bbb59g592ae8c890542944@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570902171029m18fa53c6lfdf506f9f1323d59@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 13:22, Scott Elcomb wrote: > I would take a good hard look at the TOS first; Facebook recently made > changes to theirs that have a lot of people upset as regards who > "owns" information posted. I do know however their TOS state > specifically that they may use ANYTHING you post without compensation. > > I don't know or use Myspace at all so I can't speak to their terms. > > -- > Scott Elcomb > http://www.psema4.com/ This is nothing new, remember Geocities tried the same thing, and there was also a big outcry about it...they changed their tune really fast! -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ray-UsHhwO8CmvuakBO8gow8eQ at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 17 19:02:03 2009 From: ray-UsHhwO8CmvuakBO8gow8eQ at public.gmane.org (Ray Payne) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:02:03 -0500 Subject: OT - Need an internal LVD SCSI cable References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1234780421.18993.12.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49996DA3.9030000@rogers.com> Message-ID: <3C31E454411187439E3314D99DD950272E05B4@jack.pcrepairs.com> I know this is off topic. I need an internal LVD SCSI cable (HD68) to replace a damaged cable. Does anybody know anywhere that would carry this sort of item anymore? The only place I've found with something in stock doesn't have enough connections for all 4 drives. I have to get the machine up quickly, so ordering online and having it shipped won't work. Everything I can find on Google (minus the one short cable) is online for shipment only. I'm in Mississauga, but can travel for somewhere with stock on old cables. Thanks in advance, Ray -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 17 22:43:26 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:43:26 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing Message-ID: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> hey all, i'm re-rebuilding our long-out-of-commission media center here at home, and thinking about what components to use. As my kids get older and start to need a computer, I'd really like to limit the number of boxes we have draining power, so i'm kind of thinking i'd like to have just one box that records, downloads and plays video, stores music, and ALSO has a second seat/x-session on which my kids can surf the internet, type up homework, and also play educational games (for the last one i'm likely to need a windows virtual machine). Because it's doing double duty, i'd like this machine to have a fairly powerful cpu; but because it'll be on a lot of the time, i'd like it to have a half-decent power profile -- especially, i guess, really good sleep states for all the processors, and a bios that supports timed wake-up, so i can setup mythtv to shutdown if it doesn't have any recording to do. it's been a while since i bought any new hardware, and i just wondered if anyone out there had any recent experience looking for similar attributes. also if you have any experience running multiple x-sessions -- e.g. can i run one session on the video out of my nvidia card, and a second one on the vga? i'd love to hear about some helpful stories. Thanks as always! matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 17 22:52:13 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:52:13 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 17:43, Matt Price wrote: > hey all, > > i'm re-rebuilding our long-out-of-commission media center here at home, > and thinking about what components to use. As my kids get older and > start to need a computer, I'd really like to limit the number of boxes > we have draining power, so i'm kind of thinking i'd like to have just > one box that records, downloads and plays video, stores music, and ALSO > has a second seat/x-session on which my kids can surf the internet, type > up homework, and also play educational games (for the last one i'm > likely to need a windows virtual machine). > > Because it's doing double duty, i'd like this machine to have a fairly > powerful cpu; but because it'll be on a lot of the time, i'd like it to > have a half-decent power profile -- especially, i guess, really good > sleep states for all the processors, and a bios that supports timed > wake-up, so i can setup mythtv to shutdown if it doesn't have any > recording to do. it's been a while since i bought any new hardware, and > i just wondered if anyone out there had any recent experience looking > for similar attributes. also if you have any experience running > multiple x-sessions -- e.g. can i run one session on the video out of my > nvidia card, and a second one on the vga? i'd love to hear about some > helpful stories. Thanks as always! > > matt > > > -- > Matt Price > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Most of the HDD manufactures -- Western Digital, etc -- are making "green" drives along with their regular ones. -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 17 23:08:42 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:08:42 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On 2/17/09, Matt Price wrote: > hey all, > > i'm re-rebuilding our long-out-of-commission media center here at home, > and thinking about what components to use. As my kids get older and > start to need a computer, I'd really like to limit the number of boxes > we have draining power, so i'm kind of thinking i'd like to have just > one box that records, downloads and plays video, stores music, and ALSO > has a second seat/x-session on which my kids can surf the internet, type > up homework, and also play educational games (for the last one i'm > likely to need a windows virtual machine). A topic that has been drawing a LOT of attention on the MythTV-users mailing list is the topic of VDPAU (Video Decode and Presentation API for Unix) a feature found in some NVidia GeForce 8 series and later video cards. A VDPAU supporting card will let you off load a lot of the video decoding work normally done by the CPU to the video card. Cards that support this can be found for under $60 (Canadian). These cards will let you use a fairly modest (read low power consumption) CPU chip. How modest you could go is a subject of debate, but let's just say that you will not need the latest fire breathing AMD/Intel CPU to support video tasks. The gotchas include, only the testing version 0.22 of MythTV supports VDPAU (the current stable version of MythTV 0.21 doesn't support VDPAU). You have to tread cafefully regarding VDPAU support, there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to what cards in the GeForce 8 series support what... > Because it's doing double duty, i'd like this machine to have a fairly > powerful cpu; but because it'll be on a lot of the time, i'd like it to > have a half-decent power profile -- especially, i guess, really good > sleep states for all the processors, and a bios that supports timed > wake-up, so i can setup mythtv to shutdown if it doesn't have any > recording to do. it's been a while since i bought any new hardware, and > i just wondered if anyone out there had any recent experience looking > for similar attributes. also if you have any experience running > multiple x-sessions -- e.g. can i run one session on the video out of my > nvidia card, and a second one on the vga? i'd love to hear about some > helpful stories. Thanks as always! > > matt > > > -- > Matt Price > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 06:48:07 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:48:07 -0500 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI Message-ID: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> Hello all, As many of you know the Canadian government has produced a formal Request for Information (RFI) regarding "no cost software" (which lumps together FOSS as well as free-to-download proprietary). I haven't had the time to create a complete doc on behalf of TLUG or CLUE, but I'm at least planning to put in a submission on my own behalf. I've attached a draft of what I've done so far. There are three questions of the 10 -- #4, #8 and #10 -- that I either don't fully understand or don't have an answer for. Any assistance or suggestions will be welcomed, and I'll be happy to credit on the document the name of anyone who helps. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------- Q1. In the Overview, the Crown provided a definition for No Charge Licensed Software. Is this an appropriate definition? No, it is not appropriate. The current definition encompasses two categories of software that share a single trait in common but are otherwise substantially different: Software that is free of cost for an individual to download but otherwise proprietary, usually shipped in binary-only form (to be referred to in the rest of this document as ?free-proprietary software?) Software that upholds both senses of the the English word ?free? -- not only free of cost (in French, gratuit) but also free of most limitations to use, copy or redistribute (in French, libre) ? (to be referred to in the rest of this document as ?open source software?) Indeed, confusion about the two uses of the word ?free? have led to the common use of the term ?Open Source? to describe software distributed with such freedoms. ?Free Software?, a term used by proponents of such software, has often been confused with software that is free of cost. This confusion, we believe, is menifested in the Crown's improperly combining these two different kinds of software for the purpose of this RFI. How is ?free-proprietary? software different from ?open source? software? Many different software licences that qualify as ?open source? according to guidelines of the Open Source Initiative (http://www.opensource.org) or ?free software? according the the Free Software Foundation (http://www.fsf.org), they share significant common and basic traits: They do not limit re-distribution; They do not define inappropriate use nor put any limitations on use; They supply source code and allow anyone to make modifications for their own use; They allow and encourage (and in some licenses they require) that modifications are also distributed with these same charateristics Proprietary-free software generally lack some or all of the above characteristics; indeed, they are no different from the conventional packaged software except that under a certain circumstance it is downloadable at no cost. Generally, free versions of proprietary-free software are provided as promotions, preliminary versions, or as enabling tools or drivers to support other non-free software or hardware. The revenue model behind the production of proprietary-free software ultimately requires that revenue is derived from either the software or something that the software enables. Conversely, open source software is intended to be provided as a finished product, not intended to promote something else. Its revenue model generally avoids monetizing the software itself, instead providers derive revenue from ancillary services such as support, training and consulting which are not necessarily required for the operation of the software. Because of the differences in purpose and revenue model, often free-proprietary software has various limitations, not all of which may be known at the time of first use or until the license is read in detail: Certain features are ?locked? unless a fee is paid or some action is taken The software is time-limited and will stop working after a certain period or on a certain date Free use may be restricted to personal or non-profit systems The software is a preliminary or ?beta? version; the full release version must be paid for The software contains advertising which in some cases can be turned off by paying a fee1 Current version is free to download; future versions and upgrades will be charged for Proper use of the software requires registration (and loss of privacy) Messages ?encouraging? users to send money are shown. In other words, what may appear to be ?free? may instead be just a demonstration, or software disabled in such a manner as to encourage purchase of the full version. It is not a coincidence that the terms ?nagware? and ?crippleware? have been coined, most often to refer to free-proprietary software. By definition (of the common traits explained above), open source software is not susceptable to such limitations. There are occasional legitimate and helpful uses of free-proprietary software ? hardware drivers and evaluations, for example. However, such software is so substantially different in characteristics and motivation that it should not be ?lumped in? with open source software for the purpose of this RFI or any other future Crown request for goods, services or information. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Q2. What are reasonable criteria that the Crown should consider in a decision process for acquiring No Charge Licensed Software? Are there circumstances in which the acquisition of No Charge Licensed Software would not be advisable? As stated above, we can demonstrate that free-proprietary software ? while serving some useful purposes ? is rarely useful in production environments. We are not aware of any legally acquired free-proprietary software that us useful for production environments without requiring an upgrade to a paid version. Conversely, we are of the position that open source software should be considered in any situation in which an open source alternative exists to conventional proprietary software. Open source alternatives will not always be the superior choice in regards to features and performance; however, the phenomenal flexibility and adaptability of open source software should also be a consideration in tenders and RFPs. We also suggest consideration of the following issues when developing policies and processes regarding the procurement of open source software: 1.The listed ?source? or maintainer of a specific open source software package may not necessarily be indicative of ? or aligned with ? the best sources of knowledge and support for that package. A package should not be demoted if it is listed as having a foreign source, if high quality Canadian support organizations are prepared to support it. Likewise, a package may be seen to be ?maintained? by a single individual, yet it may be surrounded by a substantial infrastructure of support, training and integration. 2.For the purposes of any tender or RFP, it is the supplier of support and integration services who must be primarily evaluated. Conventional ?vendor? evaluations are of reduced value in the virtual, decentralized world of open source software development. Even in the case where an open source software package is seen to have a high-profile sponsor (such as Sun's involvement in OpenOffice.org and MySQL or Google's support of the Mozilla Project), procurement policies must primarily focus on the suitability and track record of the proposed local implementors. Because of the availability of source code, a contracted implementor of open source software is capable of providing support at a level far beyond that of proprietary software resellers. 3.The Crown must take into consideration that, because of the models supporting their development, open source software projects usually have negligible marketing talents and resources behind them. It is more important than usual to look beyond the gloss of vendor presentations to evaluate the quality of the service to be provided. Open source support companies usually have less marketing resources than similarly sized companies selling proprietary solutions. Open source support organizations break the conventional Value-Added Reseller (VAR) model because they are not reselling anything ? and as such do not receive financial incentives and support from the software supplier. The Crown should make an extra effort when evaluating IT solutions based on open source software, not to confuse the quality of a solution with the gloss surrounding it. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Q3. What factors other than price should be considered as part of an evaluation guideline for No Charge Licensed Software? Are there other factors beyond those outlined in Appendix A & B that the Crown should consider? As stated above, the personal background of the open source software developers must not be as much of a point of evaluation as it is for vendors of conventional proprietary software. However, it is legitimate to evaluate the stability or health of any open source project that is proposed for Crown use. The following criteria may assist in determining the long-term stability and health of open source software projects: 1.How long has the project existed? 2.How long has the current lead developer held that position? 3.Is there an incoporporated body supporting the organization? If so, who are its sponsors? 4.What is the size of the developer community? 5.When was its last release? 6.Do developers consider the current version stable? (Is the release version less than 1.0) 7.How often are updates released? 8.Is the software included in the repositories of major Linux distributions? Related criteria that may be asked of a service provider proposing support for an open source project ? that might not be asked of a proprietary software reseller may include: 1.How long has the provider supported the project? 2.Are any of the provider's staff on the projects development team? 3.Have staff contributed code, documentation reviews, bug reports or other resources? 4.Are they subscribed to the project's mailing list(s)? Requests for examples of existing uses and case studies are completely appropriate, as they should be for any software being considered. ------------------------------------------------------------ Q4. How should existing Government Furnished Equipment, Services, Service Level Agreements and internal resources be considered when evaluating the usage of No Charge Licensed Software? We do not have a response to this question. -------------------------------------------------------------- Q5. How practical is No Charge Licensed Software? Are there hidden costs that need to be considered as part of the process of evaluating the alternatives available? As listed above, we have serious concerns about the limitations, often hidden, within free-proprietary software. As well the Crown should consider what file formats and interfaces are being used, and receive a declaration related to any claims of patents or other intellectual property. Genuine open source software entails no hidden costs; indeed, it is indeed a matter of ?what you see is what you get?. Any warrantees, if even possible, would need to be provided by the integrator as opposed to the software developer(s). The Crown needs to ensure that any proposed provider of solutions based on open source software clarify the availability and cost ? as applicable ? of Tutorial and Reference documentation. Services such as training, integration, installation, configuration and maintenance should be quoted by solution providers using open source software. Local providers may be responsible for sourcing services and materials such as courseware which may usually be provided by proprietary software vendors. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q6. What are the general financial, technical and security risks associated with acquiring and using No Charge Licensed Software? As listed above, we have serious concerns about the limitations, often hidden, within free-proprietary software. It is critical to evaluate the license of any software of this kind in advance of using it, even for evaluation purposes. Usually, free-proprietary software has little or no support, even less than the community of volunteers who routinely help users of open source software. For open source software, the risk evaluation should be similar to that for proprietary software. As recommended above, the stability of open source projects should be evaluated as well as that of the proposed solution providers, to compensate for the lack of a software ?vendor? to evaluate. ----------------------------------------------------------- Q7. How do Open Standards and interoperability factor into evaluation considerations? Because it is supplied with source code, any interfaces and formats used by open source software are by definition open themselves. As such open source software is most likely to use open standards (such as the ISO-standard OpenDocument format) than proprietary software that has an interest in ?vendor lock-in?. Open source software developers have never asserted patents or other intellectual property claims on such formats and interfaces. As such, standards made with and by open source software will always remain open and available. Users of open source now will avoid the current situation in which old documents can no longer be read because they were created with proprietary formats by old proprietary software which is no longer available. Indeed, open source software has evolved in a world that has been dominated by proprietary software vendors; it had to be interoperable in order to even be accepted. Tools such as the Samba file-sharing infrastructure have been critical components of the acceptance of open source systems into the IT mainstream. Whenever possible open source software developers have strived to maintain compatibility with proprietary counterparts; however the reverse is not true. As a result, open source software tends to be easier to intergrate with other systems than proprietary tools. (As a simple example, most modern Linux and BSD based operating systems are capable of dual booting and mounting of Windows filesystems. The reverse is not true.) ------------------------------------------------------------- Q8. How does the technology factor into the evaluation consideration, such as ability to maintain and evergreen? We do not have a response to this question. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q9. How does the Crown evaluate the flexibility of the licensing models for No Charge Licensed Software? As mentioned in the response to Q1, all licenses claimed to meet well-understood definitions of ?open source? or ?free software? have a number of common characteristics. A detailed contrast of the various approaches is beyond the scope of the RFI; however, it is reasonable to assert a number of criteria that should be evaluated, depending on the particular needs of the Crown: The main distinction between most licenses is in what rights or limitations exist when open source source software is modifed (that is, changed in source code as opposed to configured). Some licences provide no limitation, allowing a user to take the software, make modifications to it, and close the result as proprietary. Other licenses prohibit this, requiring any modifications to be as open as the original software. If the purpose of the Crown's procurement is as an end-user, and not as a re-distributor of open source software, than the distinctions above may not be significant. Most (but not all) open source software licenses freely allow modification and do not require modifications to be open of the software is not redistributed. The Crown is advised to ensure in its RFPs that the licenses provide the required rights, either to ensure the continued freedom of modifications, or to allow proprietary derivatives. It is our position that open source software which is modified by the Crown on behalf of the people of Canada should be as free as the original code, whether or not the software license requires it. Keeping modifications open gives benefit to Canadians to learn, reduce their own IT costs, and help the Crown ensure its software is as secure as possible. ----------------------------------------------------------- Q10. What impact will No Charge Licensed Software have on Government Licensed End-User Networks (http://software.tpsgc.gc.ca//catalogue/index-e.cfm) We do not have a response to this question. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 07:52:54 2009 From: mike.kallies-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike Kallies) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:52:54 +0200 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <499BAF27.7060808-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> Message-ID: <92ee967a0902172352x734f0829jed1cbc66c7d0f0a3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: .... > > Q1. In the Overview, the Crown provided a definition for No > Charge Licensed Software. Is this an appropriate definition? > > > No, it is not appropriate. .... Hello Evan, I think after you describe this item, there's not much point in answering their other questions. They need to understand the difference, else they'll cherry-pick facts from your response to suit whatever agenda they like such as: "...we have serious concerns about the limitations, often hidden, within free-proprietary software...." You know how people read these things. On a side note, it disturbs me that they're talking about this stuff like they're talking about a vendor. They should be looking at it as participating in the community... which is what government should be doing. The alternative is sending taxpayer dollars to a company which had kept them on an hardware and software upgrade treadmill since Win95/Office 95. -Mike -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 08:27:32 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:27:32 -0500 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <92ee967a0902172352x734f0829jed1cbc66c7d0f0a3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> <92ee967a0902172352x734f0829jed1cbc66c7d0f0a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <499BC674.90608@telly.org> Mike Kallies wrote: > I think after you describe this item, there's not much point in > answering their other questions. Well, where I could, I repeatedly made the distinction and referred back to the original point. > They need to understand the difference, else they'll cherry-pick facts from your response to suit > whatever agenda they like such as: > > "...we have serious concerns about the limitations, often hidden, > within free-proprietary software...." > > You know how people read these things. > I have no problem with them picking out that quote, because it's true. I would prefer them to avoid the category completely than to mix the two (open source and free-proprietary) interchangably. In the original RFI they deliberately combine the two and I made the point that this is a mistake, That does not mean the other questions cannot be answered in relation to open source. > On a side note, it disturbs me that they're talking about this stuff like they're talking about a vendor. That's what they know and understand and have always done. Part of the purpose of the RFI (and part of my answer) requires that we tell them that FOSS projects can't be treated as vendors and that the conventional vendor/VAR relationship doesn't apply. > They should be looking at it as participating in the community... which is what government should be doing. > Then that is what the RFI should be advising. I'll be satisfied if the feds start by simply supporting FOSS support orgs who themselves are part of the community. This is a major culture shift that can't happen overnight. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gordontc-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 12:01:48 2009 From: gordontc-HLeSyJ3qPdM at public.gmane.org (Gordon Chillcott) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 07:01:48 -0500 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <499BC674.90608-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> <92ee967a0902172352x734f0829jed1cbc66c7d0f0a3@mail.gmail.com> <499BC674.90608@telly.org> Message-ID: <1234958508.4202.11.camel@gnat.gordhome.local> On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 03:27 -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Mike Kallies wrote: > > I think after you describe this item, there's not much point in > > answering their other questions. > Well, where I could, I repeatedly made the distinction and referred back > to the original point. > > > They need to understand the difference, else they'll cherry-pick facts from your response to suit > > whatever agenda they like such as: > > > > "...we have serious concerns about the limitations, often hidden, > > within free-proprietary software...." > > > > You know how people read these things. > > > I have no problem with them picking out that quote, because it's true. I > would prefer them to avoid the category completely than to mix the two > (open source and free-proprietary) interchangably. In the original RFI > they deliberately combine the two and I made the point that this is a > mistake, That does not mean the other questions cannot be answered in > relation to open source. > > > > On a side note, it disturbs me that they're talking about this stuff like they're talking about a vendor. > That's what they know and understand and have always done. Part of the > purpose of the RFI (and part of my answer) requires that we tell them > that FOSS projects can't be treated as vendors and that the conventional > vendor/VAR relationship doesn't apply. > > > They should be looking at it as participating in the community... which is what government should be doing. > > > Then that is what the RFI should be advising. > > I'll be satisfied if the feds start by simply supporting FOSS support > orgs who themselves are part of the community. This is a major culture > shift that can't happen overnight. > > - Evan > -- It would be wise, I think, to find out something about the Government's procurement processes before diving too deeply into this. It would also be wise to spend less time looking for hidden agendas and spend some effort looking seriously at the questions that are being asked here. Three points: Firstly, linux is in use already in some departments of the Government of Canada. Secondly, the Government of Canada has a procurement process that, although sometimes cumbersome, is mandated by law. There is not a culture, rather a set of rules they MUST follow. Thirdly, there are, in fact, vendors who offer linux-based solutions and open source support. What they want, out of this, is a way manage procurement of open source products (if I can use that term), and some understanding of the ramifications. And there are some. This is a very good opportunity to address the concerns of a business community that looks at open source products and sees something that sounds too good to be true. And they have worries. Please remember where they've been getting their advice from up until now. And what they're going to be telling them - they downloaded this thing too. I suggest you use this as a chance to present a calm, reasoned response to the concerns of a VERY large group of people who should be using open source solutions. Gordon Chillcott > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 13:55:08 2009 From: icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg at public.gmane.org (bob 295) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:55:08 -0500 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <499BAF27.7060808-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> Message-ID: <200902180855.11825.icanprogram@295.ca> As an open source developer I'm always concerned when someone refers to open source software as free in the sense of "gratuit". The advantage of open source lies much more in the free in the sense of "libre". Libre implies the ability to adjust and customize the software product to suit the government needs exactly. Libre implies that the government would have to pay local developers to do those customizations. Libre implies a better product at a lower cost, NOT an substitutable product for gratuit. I was involved with Elections Canada in the past number of elections as an automation coordinator. That software is a classic example of a vendor (IBM) solution not fitting the needs of the customer (EC), but the customer not having the ability make any changes. Unfortunately when we floated the possibility of the Canadian Government creating an open source project to generate the next generation of EC software, we ran square up against what I would call the "need to have someone to sue should something go wrong" mentality. The Canadian Government doesn't yet see themselves as a partner in a process which provides a service, but rather they see themselves as a customer purchasing a product which is supposed to provide the service. This is a shame because if they could make that mindshift I'm convinced that our taxpayer $$$ could be more efficiently allocated in the software area. In this era of multi billion $ stimulus packages aimed at creating jobs, we should be emphasizing the immediate local Canadian job creation potential offered by customizable open source government software solutions. We should be emphasizing the long term value and cost savings afforded by customizable open source software. We should be giving the Canadian government examples where this collaborative custom software development model has worked, with specific emphasis on taxpayer savings. bob On February 18, 2009 01:48 am, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hello all, > > As many of you know the Canadian government has produced a formal > Request for Information (RFI) regarding "no cost software" (which > lumps together FOSS as well as free-to-download proprietary). > > I haven't had the time to create a complete doc on behalf of > TLUG or CLUE, but I'm at least planning to put in a submission > on my own behalf. > > I've attached a draft of what I've done so far. There are three > questions of the 10 -- #4, #8 and #10 -- that I either don't fully > understand or don't have an answer for. Any assistance or suggestions > will be welcomed, and I'll be happy to credit on the document the > name of anyone who helps. > > - Evan > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Q1. In the Overview, the Crown provided a definition for No > Charge Licensed Software. Is this an appropriate definition? > > > No, it is not appropriate. > > The current definition encompasses two categories of software that share a > single trait in common but are otherwise substantially different: > > Software that is free of cost for an individual to download but otherwise > proprietary, usually shipped in binary-only form (to be referred to in the > rest of this document as ?free-proprietary software?) > > Software that upholds both senses of the the English word ?free? -- not > only free of cost (in French, gratuit) but also free of most limitations to > use, copy or redistribute (in French, libre) ? (to be referred to in the > rest of this document as ?open source software?) > > Indeed, confusion about the two uses of the word ?free? have led to the > common use of the term ?Open Source? to describe software distributed with > such freedoms. ?Free Software?, a term used by proponents of such software, > has often been confused with software that is free of cost. This confusion, > we believe, is menifested in the Crown's improperly combining these two > different kinds of software for the purpose of this RFI. > > How is ?free-proprietary? software different from ?open source? software? > > Many different software licences that qualify as ?open source? according to > guidelines of the Open Source Initiative (http://www.opensource.org) or > ?free software? according the the Free Software Foundation > (http://www.fsf.org), they share significant common and basic traits: > > They do not limit re-distribution; > They do not define inappropriate use nor put any limitations on use; > They supply source code and allow anyone to make modifications for their > own use; They allow and encourage (and in some licenses they require) that > modifications are also distributed with these same charateristics > > Proprietary-free software generally lack some or all of the above > characteristics; indeed, they are no different from the conventional > packaged software except that under a certain circumstance it is > downloadable at no cost. Generally, free versions of proprietary-free > software are provided as promotions, preliminary versions, or as enabling > tools or drivers to support other non-free software or hardware. The > revenue model behind the production of proprietary-free software ultimately > requires that revenue is derived from either the software or something that > the software enables. > > Conversely, open source software is intended to be provided as a finished > product, not intended to promote something else. Its revenue model > generally avoids monetizing the software itself, instead providers derive > revenue from ancillary services such as support, training and consulting > which are not necessarily required for the operation of the software. > > > Because of the differences in purpose and revenue model, often > free-proprietary software has various limitations, not all of which may be > known at the time of first use or until the license is read in detail: > > Certain features are ?locked? unless a fee is paid or some action is taken > The software is time-limited and will stop working after a certain period > or on a certain date Free use may be restricted to personal or non-profit > systems > The software is a preliminary or ?beta? version; the full release version > must be paid for The software contains advertising which in some cases can > be turned off by paying a fee1 Current version is free to download; future > versions and upgrades will be charged for Proper use of the software > requires registration (and loss of privacy) Messages ?encouraging? users to > send money are shown. > > In other words, what may appear to be ?free? may instead be just a > demonstration, or software disabled in such a manner as to encourage > purchase of the full version. It is not a coincidence that the terms > ?nagware? and ?crippleware? have been coined, most often to refer to > free-proprietary software. > > By definition (of the common traits explained above), open source software > is not susceptable to such limitations. > > There are occasional legitimate and helpful uses of free-proprietary > software ? hardware drivers and evaluations, for example. However, such > software is so substantially different in characteristics and motivation > that it should not be ?lumped in? with open source software for the > purpose of this RFI or any other future Crown request for goods, services > or information. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Q2. What are reasonable criteria that the Crown should consider > in a decision process for acquiring No Charge Licensed Software? > Are there circumstances in which the acquisition of No Charge > Licensed Software would not be advisable? > > > As stated above, we can demonstrate that free-proprietary software ? while > serving some useful purposes ? is rarely useful in production environments. > We are not aware of any legally acquired free-proprietary software that us > useful for production environments without requiring an upgrade to a paid > version. Conversely, we are of the position that open source software > should be considered in any situation in which an open source alternative > exists to conventional proprietary software. Open source alternatives will > not always be the superior choice in regards to features and performance; > however, the phenomenal flexibility and adaptability of open source > software should also be a consideration in tenders and RFPs. We also > suggest consideration of the following issues when developing policies and > processes regarding the procurement of open source software: 1.The listed > ?source? or maintainer of a specific open source software package may not > necessarily be indicative of ? or aligned with ? the best sources of > knowledge and support for that package. A package should not be demoted if > it is listed as having a foreign source, if high quality Canadian support > organizations are prepared to support it. Likewise, a package may be seen > to be ?maintained? by a single individual, yet it may be surrounded by a > substantial infrastructure of support, training and integration. 2.For the > purposes of any tender or RFP, it is the supplier of support and > integration services who must be primarily evaluated. Conventional ?vendor? > evaluations are of reduced value in the virtual, decentralized world of > open source software development. Even in the case where an open source > software package is seen to have a high-profile sponsor (such as Sun's > involvement in OpenOffice.org and MySQL or Google's support of the Mozilla > Project), procurement policies must primarily focus on the suitability and > track record of the proposed local implementors. Because of the > availability of source code, a contracted implementor of open source > software is capable of providing support at a level far beyond that of > proprietary software resellers. 3.The Crown must take into consideration > that, because of the models supporting their development, open source > software projects usually have negligible marketing talents and resources > behind them. It is more important than usual to look beyond the gloss of > vendor presentations to evaluate the quality of the service to be provided. > Open source support companies usually have less marketing resources than > similarly sized companies selling proprietary solutions. Open source > support organizations break the conventional Value-Added Reseller (VAR) > model because they are not reselling anything ? and as such do not receive > financial incentives and support from the software supplier. The Crown > should make an extra effort when evaluating IT solutions based on open > source software, not to confuse the quality of a solution with the gloss > surrounding it. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Q3. What factors other than price should be considered as part > of an evaluation guideline for No Charge Licensed Software? Are > there other factors beyond those outlined in Appendix A & B that > the Crown should consider? > > As stated above, the personal background of the open source software > developers must not be as much of a point of evaluation as it is for > vendors of conventional proprietary software. However, it is legitimate to > evaluate the stability or health of any open source project that is > proposed for Crown use. > > The following criteria may assist in determining the long-term stability > and health of open source software projects: 1.How long has the project > existed? > 2.How long has the current lead developer held that position? > 3.Is there an incoporporated body supporting the organization? If so, who > are its sponsors? 4.What is the size of the developer community? > 5.When was its last release? > 6.Do developers consider the current version stable? (Is the release > version less than 1.0) 7.How often are updates released? > 8.Is the software included in the repositories of major Linux > distributions? > > Related criteria that may be asked of a service provider proposing support > for an open source project ? that might not be asked of a proprietary > software reseller may include: 1.How long has the provider supported the > project? > 2.Are any of the provider's staff on the projects development team? > 3.Have staff contributed code, documentation reviews, bug reports or other > resources? 4.Are they subscribed to the project's mailing list(s)? > > Requests for examples of existing uses and case studies are completely > appropriate, as they should be for any software being considered. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Q4. How should existing Government Furnished Equipment, > Services, Service Level Agreements and internal resources be > considered when evaluating the usage of No Charge Licensed > Software? > > We do not have a response to this question. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Q5. How practical is No Charge Licensed Software? Are there > hidden costs that need to be considered as part of the process > of evaluating the alternatives available? > > As listed above, we have serious concerns about the limitations, often > hidden, within free-proprietary software. As well the Crown should consider > what file formats and interfaces are being used, and receive a declaration > related to any claims of patents or other intellectual property. > > Genuine open source software entails no hidden costs; indeed, it is indeed > a matter of ?what you see is what you get?. Any warrantees, if even > possible, would need to be provided by the integrator as opposed to the > software developer(s). The Crown needs to ensure that any proposed provider > of solutions based on open source software clarify the availability and > cost ? as applicable ? of Tutorial and Reference documentation. > > Services such as training, integration, installation, configuration and > maintenance should be quoted by solution providers using open source > software. Local providers may be responsible for sourcing services and > materials such as courseware which may usually be provided by proprietary > software vendors. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------------------------------------------------ Q6. What are the > general financial, technical and security risks associated with acquiring > and using No Charge Licensed Software? > > As listed above, we have serious concerns about the limitations, often > hidden, within free-proprietary software. It is critical to evaluate the > license of any software of this kind in advance of using it, even for > evaluation purposes. Usually, free-proprietary software has little or no > support, even less than the community of volunteers who routinely help > users of open source software. > > For open source software, the risk evaluation should be similar to that for > proprietary software. As recommended above, the stability of open source > projects should be evaluated as well as that of the proposed solution > providers, to compensate for the lack of a software ?vendor? to evaluate. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Q7. How do Open Standards and interoperability factor into > evaluation considerations? > > Because it is supplied with source code, any interfaces and formats used by > open source software are by definition open themselves. As such open source > software is most likely to use open standards (such as the ISO-standard > OpenDocument format) than proprietary software that has an interest in > ?vendor lock-in?. Open source software developers have never asserted > patents or other intellectual property claims on such formats and > interfaces. As such, standards made with and by open source software will > always remain open and available. Users of open source now will avoid the > current situation in which old documents can no longer be read because they > were created with proprietary formats by old proprietary software which is > no longer available. > > Indeed, open source software has evolved in a world that has been dominated > by proprietary software vendors; it had to be interoperable in order to > even be accepted. Tools such as the Samba file-sharing infrastructure have > been critical components of the acceptance of open source systems into the > IT mainstream. Whenever possible open source software developers have > strived to maintain compatibility with proprietary counterparts; however > the reverse is not true. As a result, open source software tends to be > easier to intergrate with other systems than proprietary tools. (As a > simple example, most modern Linux and BSD based operating systems are > capable of dual booting and mounting of Windows filesystems. The reverse is > not true.) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Q8. How does the technology factor into the evaluation > consideration, such as ability to maintain and evergreen? > > We do not have a response to this question. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------------------------ Q9. How does the Crown evaluate the > flexibility of the licensing models for No Charge Licensed Software? > > As mentioned in the response to Q1, all licenses claimed to meet > well-understood definitions of ?open source? or ?free software? have a > number of common characteristics. > > A detailed contrast of the various approaches is beyond the scope of the > RFI; however, it is reasonable to assert a number of criteria that should > be evaluated, depending on the particular needs of the Crown: > > The main distinction between most licenses is in what rights or limitations > exist when open source source software is modifed (that is, changed in > source code as opposed to configured). > > Some licences provide no limitation, allowing a user to take the software, > make modifications to it, and close the result as proprietary. Other > licenses prohibit this, requiring any modifications to be as open as the > original software. > > If the purpose of the Crown's procurement is as an end-user, and not as a > re-distributor of open source software, than the distinctions above may not > be significant. Most (but not all) open source software licenses freely > allow modification and do not require modifications to be open of the > software is not redistributed. The Crown is advised to ensure in its RFPs > that the licenses provide the required rights, either to ensure the > continued freedom of modifications, or to allow proprietary derivatives. > > It is our position that open source software which is modified by the Crown > on behalf of the people of Canada should be as free as the original code, > whether or not the software license requires it. Keeping modifications open > gives benefit to Canadians to learn, reduce their own IT costs, and help > the Crown ensure its software is as secure as possible. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Q10. What impact will No Charge Licensed Software have on > Government Licensed End-User Networks > (http://software.tpsgc.gc.ca//catalogue/index-e.cfm) > > We do not have a response to this question. > > > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 15:04:13 2009 From: rpjday-L09J2beyid0N/H6P543EQg at public.gmane.org (Robert P. J. Day) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:04:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: yeah, about that Canadian government open source RFI ... Message-ID: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Charges+laid+massive+Ottawa+rigging+scheme/1301778/story.html i'm guessing life in the IT procurement departments around ottawa is going to be a little stressful for the next little while. rday -- ======================================================================== Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry: Have classroom, will lecture. http://crashcourse.ca Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA ======================================================================== -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 15:38:11 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:38:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <499BAF27.7060808-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 2009, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > As many of you know the Canadian government has produced a > formal Request for Information (RFI) regarding "no cost > software" (which lumps together FOSS as well as > free-to-download proprietary). For most people to be able to distinguish start by ability to name; so I suggest you more consistently throw the term "Free Open Source Software" and the acronym "FOSS". Not sure whether it is true that governmental entities do like acronyms, but when they start using the term FOSS around they may be able to see it easier that it is not just "no cost software". As you already said the RFI treated as if requesting information from vendors. I think this is normal: they are customer, and may not yet ready to become more than just customer. So the answer should also provide for a customer, i.e. if for plain customer, what is the advantage of FOSS? That said, it can be mentioned as well that FOSS allow various degree of participation, from primary maintainer, a partner, to simply a customer. As simple customer, in short term there is no much different between FOSS or proprietary software (they still need to find a vendor to provide service and support for the software), but the main advantage with FOSS is that there is much less (if any) dependency to any vendor: it will be much easier for the customer to switch vendor in the end of a contract, in some case with keeping all the installation intact. New vendor can just come in and take the service and support of previously installed software, since no vendor have exclusive ownership and knowledge about the software. This can go to Q8. > They do not limit re-distribution; ... > They allow and encourage (and in some licenses they require) > that modifications are also distributed with these same > charateristics The last clause - when it is required - can be seen as some kind of limitation to the first. > Q4. How should existing Government Furnished Equipment, > Services, Service Level Agreements and internal resources be > considered when evaluating the usage of No Charge Licensed > Software? One thing I can think of is that FOSS work better with equipment which specification is open or known. So it may have issue with new equipment with secretive or license protected specification, but in the other hand it may more easily fitted to legacy equipment for which vendor does not fully support anymore. As simple customer, SLA and resources should be the same as other software. Can point out again that they have choice to become more than simply customer and have their own internal resources provide part of the service and support in addition to vendor. > Q8. How does the technology factor into the evaluation > consideration, such as ability to maintain and evergreen? What is evergreen? As said above it actually easier to maintain FOSS, since it will much less driven by vendor needs (i.e. greed). > Q10. What impact will No Charge Licensed Software have on > Government Licensed End-User Networks What is "Government Licensed End-User Networks"? -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 15:48:33 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:48:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Matt Price wrote: > a second seat/x-session on which my kids can surf the > internet, type up homework, and also play educational games I am wondering whether it is not more energy efficient to have a couple of less powerful low powered laptop / netbooks with no moving part? Maybe even an OLPC powered from foot pedal? Other thing to think about is the power requirement and waste to manufacture the computer and to throw away old computers. Wouldn't it probably more green to get a couple of old servers, keeping them from being thrown away, eventhough they use more power? I actually wondering if one can get pretty powerful machine and run it underclocked (so it run much cooler and less heat), will it be more power efficient per processing power than running less powerful machine as its specification (which will have more heat)? -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 16:14:10 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:14:10 -0500 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> Message-ID: <499C33D2.8010902@telly.org> S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > For most people to be able to distinguish start by ability to name; so > I suggest you more consistently throw the term "Free Open Source > Software" and the acronym "FOSS". Not sure whether it is true that > governmental entities do like acronyms, but when they start using the > term FOSS around they may be able to see it easier that it is not just > "no cost software". For reasons I don't want to review at this time I stick with the term "open source software" and contrast it to "free-proprietary" downloads. I am fully aware of the rationale behind "FOSS", "FLOSS", "F/LOSS", all of which I consider a linguistic botch to serve a political agenda which is out of place in the the RFI. > As you already said the RFI treated as if requesting information from > vendors. I think this is normal: they are customer, and may not yet > ready to become more than just customer. So the answer should also > provide for a customer, i.e. if for plain customer, what is the > advantage of FOSS? As I read it, the RFI is **NOT** asking the question "should we use open source" but rather "if we do, how do our policies, processes and expectations need to change?" The Canadian government is already using open source, and it's trying to come to grips with how to reconcile open source methods and models with its existing ways of obtaining and using software. Well, that's how *I* read the RFI. It's not my intent to fill my answer with advocacy; I'm sure there are others who will. :-) What is important is to understand that the Crown may indeed want to be a simple consumer and not a partner, developer, maintainer, or community participant. Part of my answer describes how they do that (by contracting service providers that *are* sufficiently plugged in). - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 18:13:16 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:13:16 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <499C4FBC.7060807@gmail.com> S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Matt Price wrote: >> a second seat/x-session on which my kids can surf the internet, type >> up homework, and also play educational games > > I am wondering whether it is not more energy efficient to have a > couple of less powerful low powered laptop / netbooks with no moving part? Newer processors tend to have better performance normalized by their power consumption. The last diagram on this page illustrates that: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-cpu-power-consumption,1750-10.html Hence, in general, the answer will be negative. > Maybe even an OLPC powered from foot pedal? I bet that using electricity provided from power plant is much more energy efficient than creating electricity from food we are eating by our organism ;) > > Other thing to think about is the power requirement and waste to > manufacture the computer and to throw away old computers. Wouldn't it > probably more green to get a couple of old servers, keeping them from > being thrown away, eventhough they use more power? I actually > wondering if one can get pretty powerful machine and run it > underclocked (so it run much cooler and less heat), will it be more > power efficient per processing power than running less powerful > machine as its specification (which will have more heat)? > zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 18:52:03 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:52:03 -0500 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <499BAF27.7060808-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0902181052m3f860a85pdcb4a9fd94e63023@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:48 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Hello all, > > As many of you know the Canadian government has produced a formal > Request for Information (RFI) regarding "no cost software" (which > lumps together FOSS as well as free-to-download proprietary). > > I haven't had the time to create a complete doc on behalf of > TLUG or CLUE, but I'm at least planning to put in a submission > on my own behalf. > > I've attached a draft of what I've done so far. There are three > questions of the 10 -- #4, #8 and #10 -- that I either don't fully > understand or don't have an answer for. Any assistance or suggestions > will be welcomed, and I'll be happy to credit on the document the > name of anyone who helps. A nice, balanced, writeup. Thanks for sharing - it's certainly more thorough and written much more clearly than what I'd come up with. I haven't read through your response completely but what I have read, I liked. Would it be worth suggesting some form of online tool (eg. wiki, message boards, mailing list) for ongoing Q&A discussions post-RFI? Perhaps such a tool could provide a forum where Canadian FOSS communities (the citizenship), business leaders (private sector) and PWGSC (public sector) to facilitate a more complete understanding of Open Source and the pros and cons of it's usage (and mindset) within Government. 10 Questions are a great start but I can't help but figure they'll have more questions later. I'm not sure this would even need to be a "formal" tool - just a comfortable place to discuss FOSS-related material with concerned Canadian interests. Minus undue pressure from the almighty dollar of course. :-) -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 18:57:39 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:57:39 -0500 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0902181052m3f860a85pdcb4a9fd94e63023-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> <99a6c38f0902181052m3f860a85pdcb4a9fd94e63023@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <499C5A23.9030409@telly.org> Hi Scott, Thanks for the comments! > Would it be worth suggesting some form of online tool (eg. wiki, > message boards, mailing list) for ongoing Q&A discussions post-RFI? > I've moved it to Google Docs http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dmqxr8w_24g9jf57kn but would be happy to bring it to a Wiki or elsewhere. Anyone is welcome to ask for R/W access. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 20:18:42 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:18:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: <499C4FBC.7060807-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <499C4FBC.7060807@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 2009, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: >> I am wondering whether it is not more energy efficient to >> have a couple of less powerful low powered laptop / netbooks >> with no moving part? > Newer processors tend to have better performance normalized by > their power consumption. Not sure what that have to do with using laptop / netbooks. The laptop / netbooks will also be new, and laptop / netbooks are design to be energy efficient (since it should be able to run as much as possible from battery), for example by having no moving part (e.g. hard drive). > I bet that using electricity provided from power plant is much > more energy efficient than creating electricity from food we > are eating by our organism ;) Do you really want to bet? :-) While the energy from power plant is something need to be produced, the energy to operate to pedal probably come from excess energy (something we already eat for, will go to fat or we need to exercise it out anyway), so effectively zero input. Anyway, just to express how low the energy requirement of this machines. >> Other thing to think about is the power requirement and waste >> to manufacture the computer and to throw away old computers. >> Wouldn't it probably more green to get a couple of old >> servers, keeping them from being thrown away, eventhough they >> use more power? Maybe your previous reply about performance per energy is to answer this? Keep in mind that the power required to manufacture a computer system can easily multiple times the power required to run the computer for a year. And the waste is many times the weight of the final computer system. I am thinking if you got an used 2Ghz machine, ran it at 1GHz with 25% reduced core voltage, the machine will run pretty cool and with very little excess heat. -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 20:55:23 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:55:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <499C33D2.8010902-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> <499C33D2.8010902@telly.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Feb 2009, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > For reasons I don't want to review at this time I stick with > the term "open source software" and contrast it to > "free-proprietary" downloads. > > I am fully aware of the rationale behind "FOSS", "FLOSS", > "F/LOSS", all of which I consider a linguistic botch to serve > a political agenda which is out of place in the the RFI. My guess is the proprietary software world, naming is important and the fact that FOSS people cannot even agree on standarized naming is liability in entering those world. :-) IMHO "open source" software is inadequate since it seems refer to any software which source is available publicly, regardless what license limit that source or what NDA you have to sign to get it. IMHO if it need to be short "free source" software seems convey the characteristic better - in any case there is no limitation that the binary need to be free of cost. Thinking about other terms as well, but not sure if they will work: "enfranchised", "unfettered", "unbound", "liberated" software. :-) > As I read it, the RFI is **NOT** asking the question "should > we use open source" but rather "if we do, how do our policies, > processes and expectations need to change?" > > The Canadian government is already using open source, and it's > trying to come to grips with how to reconcile open source > methods and models with its existing ways of obtaining and > using software. > > Well, that's how *I* read the RFI. It's not my intent to fill > my answer with advocacy; I'm sure there are others who will. > :-) Yes, sorry, didn't say it properly. What I want to say is not about advocacy, but that the explanation should say what the effect to customer / consumer. So explaining the what is FOSS is necessary, but should also something about how that affect the customer / consumer, e.g. less ties to a vendor / ability to choose service / support provider more freely. The ability to choose how deep the institution want to involve probably a nice thing to add as well. -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 21:26:32 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:26:32 -0500 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> <499C33D2.8010902@telly.org> Message-ID: <499C7D08.7060301@telly.org> S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > IMHO "open source" software is inadequate since it seems refer to any > software which source is available publicly I don't consider that to be a usable or defensible definition. "Open Source", to me, is much better defined than that in IT circles. But just in case.... In my own document, I explicitly refer to "open source software" as any software using a license that abides by the OSI's Open Source Definition or the FSF's Free Software Definition. Both sets of guidelines are openly published and fairly clear. I'm also comfortable with the Wikipedia definition at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_software as well as the information available from the fiorst page of hits on a Google search of "open source software". Anyone using a definition that doesn't refer to any of the above is being deliberately and provably misleading. I happen to believe that "open source" is generally meant to refer to the above, even by its detractors; for instance, Microsoft has never referred to its "Shared Source" initiative as open source. If you are aware of any published mainstream definition of the term "open source" that does not refer to the above guidelines, I would like to see it. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 21:27:55 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:27:55 -0500 Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <200902180855.11825.icanprogram-sKcZck+fQKg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> <200902180855.11825.icanprogram@295.ca> Message-ID: <20090218212755.GA26515@gondolin.home.yipyip.ca> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 08:55:08AM -0500, bob 295 wrote: > I was involved with Elections Canada in the past number of elections as an > automation coordinator. That software is a classic example of a vendor > (IBM) solution not fitting the needs of the customer (EC), but the customer > not having the ability make any changes. Unfortunately when we floated > the possibility of the Canadian Government creating an open source project to > generate the next generation of EC software, we ran square up against what I > would call the "need to have someone to sue should something go wrong" > mentality. I think this nails it on the head and explains why the RFI lumps together freeware and Free Software. >From the lawyers' perspective, there's well established law, precedent, whatever that governs the exchange of software for money. This includes things like: - warranties - support - LIABILITY -- this one is huge, governments want vendors to indemnify them against claims of IP violations by 3rd parties for use of vendor software. Think SCO. For instance IBM's WebSphere uses all kinds of open source software internally but IBM will protect its paying clients from lawsuits by others claiming the use of, say, Apache or OpenLDAP infringes on their IP rights. There's also not having to rely on internal staff who aren't trusted as much as external vendors. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 23:39:39 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:39:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: <499BAF27.7060808-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> Message-ID: | From: Evan Leibovitch | I haven't had the time to create a complete doc on behalf of | TLUG or CLUE, but I'm at least planning to put in a submission | on my own behalf. Thanks for doing this! And thanks for showing it to us. | Q5. How practical is No Charge Licensed Software? Are there | hidden costs that need to be considered as part of the process | of evaluating the alternatives available? There is a hidden benefit to Open Source to be considered: the ability to switch vendors more easily. I think that this should be *extremely* important to governments. It affects worst-case long term costs. Governments often feel they need to consider worst-case situations. I think that this deserves emphasis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 23:41:14 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:41:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Response to the Federal govt RFI In-Reply-To: References: <499BAF27.7060808@telly.org> Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | There is a hidden benefit to Open Source to be considered: the ability to switch | vendors more easily. I forgot to mention: ability to audit the system. Security is only one reason. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From overholt-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 18 23:53:31 2009 From: overholt-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Andrew Overholt) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:53:31 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090218235331.GA30007@redhat.com> Hi, * Matt Price [2009-02-17 17:44]: > one box that records, downloads and plays video, stores music, and ALSO > has a second seat/x-session on which my kids can surf the internet, type Chris Tyler up at Seneca has been doing some interesting multi-seat stuff with Fedora. See his recent blog entry as a starting point: http://blog.chris.tylers.info/index.php?/archives/182-Multiseat-on-Dual-ATI-R710s-Working.html Andrew -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 07:48:15 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 02:48:15 -0500 Subject: Any Gentoo Users on this list? In-Reply-To: <20090218235331.GA30007-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090218235331.GA30007@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1235029695.11972.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> Greetings all, I am a refugee from Ubuntu who wishes to learn Gentoo Linux. I was hoping I could meet with a fellow Gentoo user in Toronto and work out a tutoring arrangment. All I want is help with some basics of Gentoo so I can take it from there. Please e-mail me off list and hopeully we can work something out. Thanks, Ib Khider -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 09:44:44 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 04:44:44 -0500 Subject: Second draft of RFI response Message-ID: <499D2A0C.7040404@telly.org> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dmqxr8w_24g9jf57kn I've tried to incorporate many of the responses that I have (thankfully!) received. Any other comments are welcome, but it needs to be sent today. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 14:06:34 2009 From: kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kyle O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:06:34 -0500 Subject: Second draft of RFI response In-Reply-To: <499D2A0C.7040404-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499D2A0C.7040404@telly.org> Message-ID: <2274b9c30902190606i68aeaad3w75dd6cae8b671f22@mail.gmail.com> Great Document. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Here are some comments: Q2 As stated above, we can demonstrate that free-proprietary software ? while serving some useful purposes ? is rarely useful in production environments. We are not aware of any legally acquired free-proprietary software that is useful for commercial production environments without requiring an upgrade to a paid version. I would leave this statement out, as it is speculative ("We are not aware"), and it may negatively influence someone's opinion on "free-proprietary software" Q2.1 typo: ... if high quality Canadian SSERVICE providers are prepared to support it. Q3.8 Is the software included in the repositories of major Linux distributions? I would change 'Linux' to 'open source operating systems' maybe add 'such as Linux'. --kyleo On 2/19/09, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dmqxr8w_24g9jf57kn > > I've tried to incorporate many of the responses that I have > (thankfully!) received. > Any other comments are welcome, but it needs to be sent today. > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 14:28:26 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:28:26 -0500 Subject: Any Gentoo Users on this list? In-Reply-To: <1235029695.11972.26.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090218235331.GA30007@redhat.com> <1235029695.11972.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902190628y11d618b8na946c3979323dcc8@mail.gmail.com> I asked this awhile ago and there weren't many out there. If I find some more free time in my future I may look at poking around with Gentoo a bit myself though. If you do decide to switch over, would you care to keep a log of important differences to note, etc? It would be nice to create a knowledge-base of sorts for this. - TJA On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 2:48 AM, I. Khider wrote: > Greetings all, > > I am a refugee from Ubuntu who wishes to learn Gentoo Linux. I was hoping I > could meet with a fellow Gentoo user in Toronto and work out a tutoring > arrangment. All I want is help with some basics of Gentoo so I can take it > from there. Please e-mail me off list and hopeully we can work something > out. > > Thanks, > > Ib Khider -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 14:58:02 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:58:02 -0500 Subject: Second draft of RFI response In-Reply-To: <2274b9c30902190606i68aeaad3w75dd6cae8b671f22-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <499D2A0C.7040404@telly.org> <2274b9c30902190606i68aeaad3w75dd6cae8b671f22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <499D737A.8090801@telly.org> Kyle O'Donnell wrote: > Great Document. Thanks for taking the time to write it. > And thanks for the feedback! > Q2 As stated above, we can demonstrate that free-proprietary software > ? while serving some useful purposes ? is rarely useful in production > environments. We are not aware of any legally acquired > free-proprietary software that is useful for commercial production > environments without requiring an upgrade to a paid version. > > I would leave this statement out, as it is speculative ("We are not > aware"), and it may negatively influence someone's opinion on > "free-proprietary software" > Actually, I would deliberately like to infer that free-proprietary is inherantly inferior to open source and is less honest than paid proprietary. I actually held back the oft-used drug-pusher analogy -- "the first hit is free" -- though it was tempting to use. I'll see what I can do to make it less strident. > Q2.1 typo: > ... if high quality Canadian SSERVICE providers are prepared to support it. > will fix. > Q3.8 Is the software included in the repositories of major Linux distributions? > I would change 'Linux' to 'open source operating systems' maybe add > 'such as Linux'. > Good point. will fix. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 15:02:25 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:02:25 -0500 Subject: Second draft of RFI response In-Reply-To: <499D737A.8090801-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499D2A0C.7040404@telly.org> <2274b9c30902190606i68aeaad3w75dd6cae8b671f22@mail.gmail.com> <499D737A.8090801@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090219150225.GA7675@watson-wilson.ca> I'm a little late to the party but one thing that you might consider if you've not done so already is the issue of support. I recently discussed this in a blog entry. http://watson-wilson.ca/blog/support.html -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 15:04:25 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:04:25 -0500 Subject: Public Works Canada solicitation about FOSS In-Reply-To: References: <498AD748.8060304@linuxcaffe.ca> <491f66a50902050431u1f25f0cbx619c0f40b3b5babf@mail.gmail.com> <20090206124949.GB5986@watson-wilson.ca> <49904E81.7030207@telly.org> <20090213152501.GP15808@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090219150425.GA7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:32:29PM -0500, colin davidson wrote: > I have Vista on my laptop (came installed). Because I have yet to > figure out how to run rdesktop across an MS VPN (and I HAVE tried, I > assure you - just keep getting a black screen), I use Vista to remote > in to work. Because I run my laptop in a sealed environment (don't > ask), I care rather a lot whether the machine boots up to use the > external monitor. Vista is a little random in that regard (Debian has > been pretty solid, so far). Also, Vista has this endearing little > habit of updating while you're using remote desktop full screen. Then, > without and visible warning, rebooting to complete the install of the > update. Try having your system restart on you without warning while > you're trying to work say six or seven times, and see how much you > like that system... XP does that too. I have seen an XP laptop reboot with no option (it did pop up a box saying "I am rebooting in 60 seconds and there is nothing you can do about it", right as the CEO of the company was starting his presentation to the whole company. Thanks microsoft. As for multiple monitors or remote desktop, I have no idea. I rarely deal with any version of windows myself. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 15:06:43 2009 From: colinpdavidson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (colin davidson) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:06:43 -0500 Subject: Any Gentoo Users on this list? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902190628y11d618b8na946c3979323dcc8-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090218235331.GA30007@redhat.com> <1235029695.11972.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0902190628y11d618b8na946c3979323dcc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, I have run Gentoo for a year or two on my home box, until the motherboard fried. I have a new MoBo and am setting it up - installing Gentoo right now, but it's a slow process (not per se - the problem is finding time to do it). However, you're welcome to consult with me, for what it's worth. There really isn't much difference in the "user experience". You use "emerge" rather than "apt-get" or whatever. There seem to be a lot more "supported" packages - but "supported" just means that there's a ebuild script, Gentoo does very little if anything in the way of patching. You will likely find yourself updating fairly frequently (I did) and that will mean updating your configuration which becomes a pain in the **** chore. The big difference is in the "USE" flags. Here is where Gentoo really comes into it's own. Forget about any benefits that come from compiling for your hardware - they are neglibable if they even exist. But with the "USE" flags you can disable conditional compilation to support packages that you will never use, and here there can be a real difference. With Gentoo you are bound to learn a lot (you may with other Distros, but with Gentoo you WILL, like it or not). I wouldn't recommend Gentoo for newbies (I've seen some who do, and shudder when I see it), nor would I recommend it for a corporate standard, but if you want to learn and particularly if you want to be able to look at the code, Gentoo is a great choice. My gmail is colinpdavidson, feel free to ask questions there if you don't want to bother the tlug list (though I can't see why not, any question will most likely have interesting technical content). Cheers, Colin On 2/19/09, Tyler Aviss wrote: > I asked this awhile ago and there weren't many out there. If I find > some more free time in my future I may look at poking around with > Gentoo a bit myself though. > > If you do decide to switch over, would you care to keep a log of > important differences to note, etc? It would be nice to create a > knowledge-base of sorts for this. > > > - TJA > > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 2:48 AM, I. Khider wrote: > > Greetings all, > > > > I am a refugee from Ubuntu who wishes to learn Gentoo Linux. I was hoping I > > could meet with a fellow Gentoo user in Toronto and work out a tutoring > > arrangment. All I want is help with some basics of Gentoo so I can take it > > from there. Please e-mail me off list and hopeully we can work something > > out. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ib Khider > > > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2 > (647) 302-0942 > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 15:17:11 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:17:11 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <1234739677.11896.33.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 06:14:37PM -0500, I. Khider wrote: > Greetings fellow Linux users, > > My HP-Compaq laptop recently died and wanted to buy a new one, also with > HP. In fact I buy a lot of products at HP such as printers, scanners, > etc.. > > I was about to purchase a business class HP laptop when the product > information specialist informed me ALL HARDWARE WARRANTIES ARE VOID THE > SECOND YOU INSTALL LINUX. My first impression was that I was speaking to > a under-trained call centre op so asked to speak with someone else. > After speaking with four reps, two technicians, and the client relations > department, I realized it was their policy. I sent a polite and > constructive e-mail to HP President Mark Hurd to reconsider this policy. > His office sent me an e-mail and said they are reviewing my request. > > One technician offered a work-around, in case of a hardware defect, > re-install Windows and send it in. So, in case of a defective power > supply or CPU fan, how does one install Windows? > > Linux applications are used throughout North America in the business > world, from servers, to supply management logistics, to database > management, etc.. How does HP function in the face of this policy? > > Companies like ASUS and Toshiba vowed to stand by their hardware > regardless of what OS I use (I called and checked), but I want the > HP--but not if they do not back their product. Well my experience is that Asus supports their laptops very well (at least in canada) and they are well built. I can only say the opposite for HP. > Considering HP sponsors a lot of linux applications and even > pre-installs some of their machines with Linux, is this not a double > standard? It's downright stupid. I am not even sure they can void the warrenty on the hardware based on what you run on it. They can refuse tech support, which makes perfectly good sense. > Personally, I would like to take this issue to the papers. > > My case number with HP is #80216227703 > > Views would be appreciated. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 15:26:02 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:26:02 -0500 Subject: BSD Users? Re:was "Any Gentoo Users on this list?" Message-ID: <3a97ef0902190726w10086d77off8662a4a17cf938@mail.gmail.com> Actually, one thing I'd be interested in hearing about would be if there are any desktop BSD users. In my previous job I maintained about 80-90% Linux servers (with some BSD, and a few windows), so it's been a switch to about 80-90% BSD at my current position. My impressions over the last 15-18 months have been quite positive for BSD in terms of servers, with the OS itself being very solid. My primary complaints are in the annoyance of upgrading outdated BSD's (but then again, Linux is a big PITA too) and that Linux seems to have support for more drivers. I haven't played with desktop BSD at all, but if anyone has any thoughts/contributions it would be quite interesting for myself and possibly others in the group. The ports tree is in some ways comparable to Gentoo in that it provides source packages/dependencies for a huge amount of software. On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:06 AM, colin davidson wrote: > Hi All, > > I have run Gentoo for a year or two on my home box, until the > motherboard fried. I have a new MoBo and am setting it up - installing > Gentoo right now, but it's a slow process (not per se - the problem is > finding time to do it). However, you're welcome to consult with me, > for what it's worth. > > There really isn't much difference in the "user experience". You use > "emerge" rather than "apt-get" or whatever. There seem to be a lot > more "supported" packages - but "supported" just means that there's a > ebuild script, Gentoo does very little if anything in the way of > patching. > > You will likely find yourself updating fairly frequently (I did) and > that will mean updating your configuration which becomes a pain in the > **** chore. > > The big difference is in the "USE" flags. Here is where Gentoo really > comes into it's own. Forget about any benefits that come from > compiling for your hardware - they are neglibable if they even exist. > But with the "USE" flags you can disable conditional compilation to > support packages that you will never use, and here there can be a real > difference. > > With Gentoo you are bound to learn a lot (you may with other Distros, > but with Gentoo you WILL, like it or not). > > I wouldn't recommend Gentoo for newbies (I've seen some who do, and > shudder when I see it), nor would I recommend it for a corporate > standard, but if you want to learn and particularly if you want to be > able to look at the code, Gentoo is a great choice. > > My gmail is colinpdavidson, feel free to ask questions there if you > don't want to bother the tlug list (though I can't see why not, any > question will most likely have interesting technical content). > > Cheers, Colin > > On 2/19/09, Tyler Aviss wrote: >> I asked this awhile ago and there weren't many out there. If I find >> some more free time in my future I may look at poking around with >> Gentoo a bit myself though. >> >> If you do decide to switch over, would you care to keep a log of >> important differences to note, etc? It would be nice to create a >> knowledge-base of sorts for this. >> >> >> - TJA >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 2:48 AM, I. Khider wrote: >> > Greetings all, >> > >> > I am a refugee from Ubuntu who wishes to learn Gentoo Linux. I was hoping I >> > could meet with a fellow Gentoo user in Toronto and work out a tutoring >> > arrangment. All I want is help with some basics of Gentoo so I can take it >> > from there. Please e-mail me off list and hopeully we can work something >> > out. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Ib Khider >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Tyler Aviss >> Systems Support >> LPIC/LPIC-2 >> (647) 302-0942 >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 15:33:37 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:33:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Efficent handling of sockets Message-ID: Any socket gurus out there? I had a question from a guy at work writing his own socket server in C. He is writing an application which needs to handle thousands of users. He would like to know the most efficient way of servicing sockets. Although he blocks on sockets with a select(2) call to the kernel, he must still search thorugh the select list to determine which socket needs to be serviced. He would like to know if there is a more efficient way to handle the socket stack. In particular, he heard that there is a way to have the kernel call a C function to processess particular sockets but he doesn't know how to set that up nor is he certain if he has to use a custom kernel module to achive this. Can anyone give him pointers on how to make searching through the select(2) results more efficient or give him a more efficient alternative to select(2) for managing large numbers of sockets? Thanks, Ken B. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 15:44:24 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:44:24 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090219154424.GC7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 05:43:26PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > i'm re-rebuilding our long-out-of-commission media center here at home, > and thinking about what components to use. As my kids get older and > start to need a computer, I'd really like to limit the number of boxes > we have draining power, so i'm kind of thinking i'd like to have just > one box that records, downloads and plays video, stores music, and ALSO > has a second seat/x-session on which my kids can surf the internet, type > up homework, and also play educational games (for the last one i'm > likely to need a windows virtual machine). > > Because it's doing double duty, i'd like this machine to have a fairly > powerful cpu; but because it'll be on a lot of the time, i'd like it to > have a half-decent power profile -- especially, i guess, really good > sleep states for all the processors, and a bios that supports timed > wake-up, so i can setup mythtv to shutdown if it doesn't have any > recording to do. it's been a while since i bought any new hardware, and > i just wondered if anyone out there had any recent experience looking > for similar attributes. also if you have any experience running > multiple x-sessions -- e.g. can i run one session on the video out of my > nvidia card, and a second one on the vga? i'd love to hear about some > helpful stories. Thanks as always! I am not sure X officially supports running multi session. The problem is that all mice and keyboards are by default combined into a single source of input. You have to work against that system and split it up and run X in raw mode for at least one of the keyboards. For a power efficient CPU with lots of power, you could look at one of the intel Core 2 Quad Q8xxx or Q9xxx chips. The Q6xxx use quite a bit more power so probably isn't the right choice, even though it costs a bit less. The Core i7 quads might actually be even better, althought they are very recent and hence I haven't seen too much about them yet. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 15:45:34 2009 From: davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/G2K4zDHf at public.gmane.org (Dave Cramer) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:45:34 -0500 Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <491f66a50902190745xc91f9c8o9ee8312572b75324@mail.gmail.com> Have him look at postgresql's server code. The bit that does socket handling is pretty easy reading. Although handling thousands is a stretch Dave On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Ken Burtch wrote: > > Any socket gurus out there? > > I had a question from a guy at work writing his own socket server in C. He > is writing an application which needs to handle thousands of users. > > He would like to know the most efficient way of servicing sockets. > Although he blocks on sockets with a select(2) call to the kernel, he must > still search thorugh the select list to determine which socket needs to be > serviced. He would like to know if there is a more efficient way to handle > the socket stack. In particular, he heard that there is a way to have the > kernel call a C function to processess particular sockets but he doesn't > know how to set that up nor is he certain if he has to use a custom kernel > module to achive this. Can anyone give him pointers on how to make > searching through the select(2) results more efficient or give him a more > efficient alternative to select(2) for managing large numbers of sockets? > > Thanks, > Ken B. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 > "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 15:52:39 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:52:39 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090219155239.GD7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 06:08:42PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > A topic that has been drawing a LOT of attention on the MythTV-users > mailing list is the topic of VDPAU (Video Decode and Presentation API > for Unix) a feature found in some NVidia GeForce 8 series and later > video cards. A VDPAU supporting card will let you off load a lot of > the video decoding work normally done by the CPU to the video card. > Cards that support this can be found for under $60 (Canadian). These > cards will let you use a fairly modest (read low power consumption) > CPU chip. How modest you could go is a subject of debate, but let's > just say that you will not need the latest fire breathing AMD/Intel > CPU to support video tasks. > > The gotchas include, only the testing version 0.22 of MythTV supports > VDPAU (the current stable version of MythTV 0.21 doesn't support > VDPAU). You have to tread cafefully regarding VDPAU support, there > seems to be no rhyme or reason as to what cards in the GeForce 8 > series support what... There is very obvious reason for which geforce 8 series have it. If the card uses a G80 GPU, it does not have it. If it uses a newer one (G84, G86 or G92) then it has it. The G80 is used in the 8800GTX, 8800 Ultra, and the 8800 GTS 320 and 640MB versions. The 8800GS, GT and GTS512MB are all G92, and all other 8xxx cards are G84 or G86 and hence all have the required PureVideo2 HD. I will have to try this out on my 8600GT with mythtv. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 16:33:19 2009 From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:33:19 -0500 Subject: Please help with public keys Message-ID: <499D89CF.50501@teksavvy.com> Hi Sorry about the long "cut-and-paste". I "googled" around but have no answers. I installed lenny and am trying out lxde. I've both debian-keyring and debian-archive-keyring. Can anyone please help or point me in the right direction? :-) Thanks in advance. Meng I modified my /etc/apt/sources.list and am getting errors with public keys. cat /etc/apt/sources.list # # deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.0 _Lenny_ - Official i386 xfce+lxde-CD Binary-1 20090214-17:36]/ lenny main #deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.0 _Lenny_ - Official i386 xfce+lxde-CD Binary-1 20090214-17:36]/ lenny main deb http://ftp.uni-koeln.de/debian/ lenny main deb-src http://ftp.uni-koeln.de/debian/ lenny main deb http://security.debian.org/ lenny/updates main deb-src http://security.debian.org/ lenny/updates main deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny main deb http://ftp.uni-koeln.de/debian/ lenny contrib non-free deb-src http://ftp.uni-koeln.de/debian/ lenny contrib non-free deb http://security.debian.org/ lenny/updates contrib non-free deb http://volatile.debian.org/debian-volatile lenny/volatile main deb-src http://volatile.debian.org/debian-volatile lenny/volatile main When I run sudo apt-get update, I get Hit http://security.debian.org lenny/updates Release.gpg Ign http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/main Translation-en_CA Ign http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/contrib Translation-en_CA Hit http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny Release.gpg Ign http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/non-free Translation-en_CA Hit http://security.debian.org lenny/updates Release Hit http://volatile.debian.org lenny/volatile Release.gpg Ign http://volatile.debian.org lenny/volatile/main Translation-en_CA Hit http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny Release.gpg Hit http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny/main Translation-en_CA Ign http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/main Packages/DiffIndex Hit http://volatile.debian.org lenny/volatile Release Ign http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/main Sources/DiffIndex Ign http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/contrib Packages/DiffIndex Ign http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/non-free Packages/DiffIndex Ign http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/main Translation-en_CA Hit http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny Release Ign http://volatile.debian.org lenny/volatile/main Packages/DiffIndex Hit http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/main Packages Ign http://volatile.debian.org lenny/volatile/main Sources/DiffIndex Hit http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/main Sources Hit http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/contrib Packages Hit http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny/main Packages/DiffIndex Hit http://volatile.debian.org lenny/volatile/main Packages Hit http://security.debian.org lenny/updates/non-free Packages Ign http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/contrib Translation-en_CA Hit http://volatile.debian.org lenny/volatile/main Sources Ign http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/non-free Translation-en_CA Hit http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny Release Ign http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/main Packages/DiffIndex Ign http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/main Sources/DiffIndex Ign http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/contrib Packages/DiffIndex Ign http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/non-free Packages/DiffIndex Ign http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/contrib Sources/DiffIndex Ign http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/non-free Sources/DiffIndex Hit http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/main Packages Hit http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/main Sources Hit http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/contrib Packages Hit http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/non-free Packages Hit http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/contrib Sources Hit http://ftp.uni-koeln.de lenny/non-free Sources Reading package lists... Done -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 21:46:39 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:46:39 -0500 Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: <20090219151711.GB7313-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello All, What does TLUG think of reporting HP to the Better Business Bureau about their anti-Linux policy? Linux is used in the business and public service world, and this policy goes against that. I agree tech support can be voided, but not hardware. I have filed reports against big business before and think maybe this it is time to do so again. I suppose I would have to buy the machine before I file the report...or not? HP has 'business laptops', so their policy is anti-business. They are not selling what is advertised. Anyway, what does everyone here think about the feasibility of this? -Ib Khider- On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 10:17 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 06:14:37PM -0500, I. Khider wrote: > > Greetings fellow Linux users, > > > > My HP-Compaq laptop recently died and wanted to buy a new one, also with > > HP. In fact I buy a lot of products at HP such as printers, scanners, > > etc.. > > > > I was about to purchase a business class HP laptop when the product > > information specialist informed me ALL HARDWARE WARRANTIES ARE VOID THE > > SECOND YOU INSTALL LINUX. My first impression was that I was speaking to > > a under-trained call centre op so asked to speak with someone else. > > After speaking with four reps, two technicians, and the client relations > > department, I realized it was their policy. I sent a polite and > > constructive e-mail to HP President Mark Hurd to reconsider this policy. > > His office sent me an e-mail and said they are reviewing my request. > > > > One technician offered a work-around, in case of a hardware defect, > > re-install Windows and send it in. So, in case of a defective power > > supply or CPU fan, how does one install Windows? > > > > Linux applications are used throughout North America in the business > > world, from servers, to supply management logistics, to database > > management, etc.. How does HP function in the face of this policy? > > > > Companies like ASUS and Toshiba vowed to stand by their hardware > > regardless of what OS I use (I called and checked), but I want the > > HP--but not if they do not back their product. > > Well my experience is that Asus supports their laptops very well (at > least in canada) and they are well built. I can only say the opposite > for HP. > > > Considering HP sponsors a lot of linux applications and even > > pre-installs some of their machines with Linux, is this not a double > > standard? > > It's downright stupid. I am not even sure they can void the warrenty > on the hardware based on what you run on it. They can refuse tech > support, which makes perfectly good sense. > > > Personally, I would like to take this issue to the papers. > > > > My case number with HP is #80216227703 > > > > Views would be appreciated. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 16:52:33 2009 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 08:52:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: BSD Users? Re:was "Any Gentoo Users on this list?" In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902190726w10086d77off8662a4a17cf938-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902190726w10086d77off8662a4a17cf938@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <885452.36177.qm@web51801.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I am glad that someone on this list mentioned the BSDs! I have tried and used both Gentoo and FreeBSD a few years back and am of the opinion that if anyone is looking into Gentoo Linux then they also should consider looking into FreeBSD. Note that FreeBSD compares to Gentoo but OpenBSD or NetBSD do not since the latter two BSDs are generally not meant to be used as Desktop OSes. There's nothing stopping one from trying to run an OpenBSD or NetBSD desktop, but the desktop experience is more pleasant on FreeBSD. While I was initially impressed with Gentoo a few years back, I think the BSD ports system is more elegant and just works better. On more than one occasion I managed to screw up Gentoo's ebuild-based packages. But rarely have I run into similar problems with the FreeBSD ports tree. My impression has always been that the BSD ports system is more mature and integrates really well with the entire system. And on FreeBSD, the ports tree is really really huge: you have a wealth of package choices available to you. These days my desktops are running either Debian or CentOS only because I have moved past the "appeal" of maintaining a source-based UNIX but I would use FreeBSD in a heartbeat if I had more time (and perhaps another machine) to experiment some more. Bottom line: if you are looking into Gentoo Linux I think you should also take a look at FreeBSD if only to get a feel for a similar source-based package management system that's been around longer and in use longer than Gentoo's ebuild/emerge based setup. My $0.02. Salman Ahmed --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Tyler Aviss wrote: > From: Tyler Aviss > Subject: BSD Users? Re: [TLUG]: was "Any Gentoo Users on this list?" > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 10:26 AM > Actually, one thing I'd be interested in hearing about > would be if > there are any desktop BSD users. > > In my previous job I maintained about 80-90% Linux servers > (with some > BSD, and a few windows), so it's been a switch to about > 80-90% BSD at > my current position. > My impressions over the last 15-18 months have been quite > positive for > BSD in terms of servers, with the OS itself being very > solid. My > primary complaints are in the annoyance of upgrading > outdated BSD's > (but then again, Linux is a big PITA too) and that Linux > seems to have > support for more drivers. > > I haven't played with desktop BSD at all, but if anyone > has any > thoughts/contributions it would be quite interesting for > myself and > possibly others in the group. The ports tree is in some > ways > comparable to Gentoo in that it provides source > packages/dependencies > for a huge amount of software. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 17:04:36 2009 From: fia_wrc_fanatic-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Salman Ahmed) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:04:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <354946.46641.qm@web51801.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The following site has some good information on how to tackle this problem: http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html Salman Ahmed --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Ken Burtch wrote: > From: Ken Burtch > Subject: [TLUG]: Efficent handling of sockets > To: tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org > Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 10:33 AM > Any socket gurus out there? > > I had a question from a guy at work writing his own socket > server in C. He is writing an application which needs to > handle thousands of users. > > He would like to know the most efficient way of servicing > sockets. Although he blocks on sockets with a select(2) > call to the kernel, he must still search thorugh the select > list to determine which socket needs to be serviced. He > would like to know if there is a more efficient way to > handle the socket stack. In particular, he heard that there > is a way to have the kernel call a C function to processess > particular sockets but he doesn't know how to set that > up nor is he certain if he has to use a custom kernel module > to achive this. Can anyone give him pointers on how to make > searching through the select(2) results more efficient or > give him a more efficient alternative to select(2) for > managing large numbers of sockets? > > Thanks, > Ken B. > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 17:21:54 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:21:54 -0500 Subject: BSD Users? Re:was "Any Gentoo Users on this list?" In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902190726w10086d77off8662a4a17cf938-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902190726w10086d77off8662a4a17cf938@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090219172154.GA11598@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:26:02AM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: >Actually, one thing I'd be interested in hearing about would be if >there are any desktop BSD users. It has been a few years, but I used FreeBSD on a desktop and a laptop for a year or so. The core OS is excellent, and it is great to go to one website for all your documentation needs. Where FreeBSD fell down for me was rolling, in-place updates. You could update everything for a while, but then you started to get dependency wedges, strange behaviour and general frustration. Also, if you are trying to track a fast-moving piece of software you are going to have to take over the port. I switched to Debian, because I can update seamlessly for years at a time - basically the life of the hard drive - without any problems. If you don't mind reinstalling once a year or so, and don't need today's latest build of anything, you can be very happy with FreeBSD and some of its friends (Dragonfly, OS X, etc.). -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 17:37:04 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:37:04 -0500 Subject: BSD Users? Re:was "Any Gentoo Users on this list?" In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902190726w10086d77off8662a4a17cf938-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902190726w10086d77off8662a4a17cf938@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2009-02-19, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Actually, one thing I'd be interested in hearing about would be if > there are any desktop BSD users. I think you'd want to visit the GTABUG list to find out about that (GTA BSD Users Group ;-)). They're a rather smaller group, and have much less formal meetings (they meet at a Pizza place near Yonge & Bloor), but nonetheless meet about as often as does TLUG :-). -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 18:17:48 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:17:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Second draft of RFI response In-Reply-To: <499D2A0C.7040404-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499D2A0C.7040404@telly.org> Message-ID: | From: Evan Leibovitch | http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dmqxr8w_24g9jf57kn | | I've tried to incorporate many of the responses that I have (thankfully!) | received. | Any other comments are welcome, but it needs to be sent today. Thanks again! In Q9, you say: Some licenses (such as the GNU GPL) would require the Crown to publish as open source any work that it would cause to be created or modified. Other licenses, such as those used by Apache, Perl or BSD, would allow the Crown to keep its modifications private or proprietary. You clarify this subsequently, but you should say right here that this only applies if the crown distributes the modified work. Possible wording. A little awkward. Some licenses (such as the GNU GPL) would require the Crown, if it were to distribute a modified version of the software, to also offer the source code of that software under the orignal terms. Other licenses, such as those used by Apache, Perl or BSD, would allow the Crown to keep its modifications private or proprietary. ================ Do you know of useful writeups of other governments' experiences? Are references worth adding? ================ I'm not saying to add this; it is just what I thought of while reading this again: I think that "vendor lock in" is just a specific instance of control. Other forms, off the top of my head: - change is at the whim of the provider (including possibly "monopoly rent" charges). + a small change desired by the Crown might be expensive or refused + a bug fix desired by the Crown might be expensive or refused + a change might actually interfere with the Crown's use but not be optional - diagnosing a problem with a system in which the work is a component might be made harder due to the work being a black box. - redesigning deployment might require acquiring additional licenses. Each time licenses need to be acquired, the vendor may change the terms. - upgrading a platform may require acquiring new licences - transfering work to another entity (eg. outsourcing) might require acquiring new licenses - ensuring licensing compliance turns out to be an onerous task in large organizations. It can be intrusive, expensive, and disruptive. Not doing it right leaves the organization open to serious liability. For Open Source, this is generally easy. All this could be considered vendor lock-in, but it isn't evident in you explanation in the last paragraph of Q5. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 18:34:31 2009 From: sgh-Ja3L+HSX0kI at public.gmane.org (Steve Harvey) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:34:31 -0500 Subject: Second draft of RFI response In-Reply-To: <499D2A0C.7040404-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <499D2A0C.7040404@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090219183431.GG559@shell.vex.net> Evan, Thanks for taking the time to produce this. I have only one concern after my quick reading of it: Q7: "Open source software developers have never asserted patents or other intellectual property claims on such formats and interfaces." It takes only a single counter example to demolish this. I wouldn't trust that no vendor wouldn't try to sneak their patent pending interface into general acceptance by making the source code freely available. Such shenaningans are often used by hardware vendors with regards to standards bodies. As FLOSS becomes even more mainstream, I'd expect to see such attempts happen more often. Even a government is beholden to treaty obligations. -sgh -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 18:37:45 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:37:45 -0500 Subject: serious xfs (file ystem) issues Message-ID: Hi pals Got this problem and I am just seeking help here in case someone has a quick solution that can get us out of the problem. We have a mysql database that run on xfs. About noon today, the database died and a quick digging pointed to an issue with the file system. We have tried file system check, but the restarting the database causes the problem to reappear again. Now, I am not sure whether this is a bug in xfs, dmks or data, and thats where I am seeking some assistance. Here is the tech details - Linux database 2.6.18-92.1.10.el5 #1 SMP Tue Aug 5 07:42:41 EDT 2008 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux - kmod-xfs-0.4-1.2.6.18_92.1.10.el5 - xfsprogs-2.9.4-1.el5.centos Below are the logs. What would the most advisable way to go about it if it were in you in facing this problem: Thannks for any assistance: Regards, William Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: Filesystem "dm-0": XFS internal error xfs_alloc_read_agf at line 2190 of file /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_alloc.c. Caller 0xffffffff8858d0f4 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_corruption_error+0xe4/0xf6 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:kmem_zone_zalloc+0x1e/0x2f Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_buf_item_init+0x56/0xc8 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_trans_read_buf+0x27a/0x2c7 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_alloc_read_agf+0x110/0x189 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_alloc_fix_freelist+0x45/0x413 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_alloc_fix_freelist+0x45/0x413 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_free_extent+0x88/0xc9 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xlog_recover_finish+0x15a/0x244 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_mountfs+0xa24/0xc30 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_mount+0x762/0x83b Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_fs_fill_super+0x0/0x1e3 Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_fs_fill_super+0x7e/0x1e3 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: Filesystem "dm-0": XFS internal error xfs_alloc_read_agf at line 2190 of file /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_alloc.c. Caller 0xffffffff8858d0f4 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_corruption_error+0xe4/0xf6 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:kmem_zone_zalloc+0x1e/0x2f Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_buf_item_init+0x56/0xc8 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_trans_read_buf+0x27a/0x2c7 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_alloc_read_agf+0x110/0x189 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_alloc_fix_freelist+0x45/0x413 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_alloc_fix_freelist+0x45/0x413 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_free_extent+0x88/0xc9 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_bmap_finish+0xf0/0x169 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_itruncate_finish+0x172/0x2b3 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_inactive_free_eofblocks+0x190/0x1d6 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_release+0x94/0xc5 Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: [] :xfs:xfs_file_release+0x1a/0x1e Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: xfs_force_shutdown(dm-0,0x8) called from line 4267 of file /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_bmap.c. Return address = 0xffffffff8859a2ea Feb 19 12:26:55 database kernel: xfs_force_shutdown(dm-0,0x1) called from line 424 of file /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_rw.c. Return address = 0xffffffff885d17f1 Feb 19 12:26:55 database kernel: xfs_force_shutdown(dm-0,0x1) called from line 424 of file /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_rw.c. Return address = 0xffffffff885d17f1 -- For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three. ?Alice Kahn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 18:53:36 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:53:36 -0500 Subject: Second draft of RFI response In-Reply-To: <20090219183431.GG559-bEteefDXIgtmcu3hnIyYJQ@public.gmane.org> References: <499D2A0C.7040404@telly.org> <20090219183431.GG559@shell.vex.net> Message-ID: <499DAAB0.2080800@telly.org> Steve Harvey wrote: > "Open source software developers have never asserted patents or other > intellectual property claims on such formats and interfaces." > > It takes only a single counter example to demolish this. I consider myself protected by tense. :-) "have never asserted" != " will never assert" I was accurate in saying that it has not happened yet. What happens the moment after I submit does not invalidate what I said. Maybe it's a litttle disingenuous, and I probably would have changed it, but the deadline is now (2pm) and I submitted an hour ago. > I wouldn't trust that no vendor wouldn't try to sneak their patent pending interface into general acceptance by making the source code freely available. > Possibly, but a patent that was knowingly infected into an open source project (especially by the inventor!) would have a very difficult time asserting a claim in court. Newer FOSS licenses such as the GPL4, I believe, expressly deal with this. IANAPLBIAAPH(*) - Evan (*) I Am Not A Patent Lawyer But I Am A Patent Owner (US 5579117) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 18:57:43 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:57:43 -0500 Subject: Please help with public keys In-Reply-To: <499D89CF.50501-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> References: <499D89CF.50501@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <499DABA7.8040100@utoronto.ca> Meng Cheah wrote: > Hi > > Sorry about the long "cut-and-paste". > I "googled" around but have no answers. > I installed lenny and am trying out lxde. > I've both debian-keyring and debian-archive-keyring. > > Can anyone please help or point me in the right direction? :-) > Thanks in advance. What's the specific problem? Try #debian on irc.freenode.net, I've seen a few people asking there about keys and lenny. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 20:21:28 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:21:28 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: <20090219154424.GC7313-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090219154424.GC7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1f13df280902191221m588c4ecavaf0a79e1be248e54@mail.gmail.com> 2009/2/19 Lennart Sorensen : > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 05:43:26PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: >> i'm re-rebuilding our long-out-of-commission media center here at home, >> and thinking about what components to use. As my kids get older and >> start to need a computer, I'd really like to limit the number of boxes >> we have draining power, so i'm kind of thinking i'd like to have just >> one box that records, downloads and plays video, stores music, and ALSO >> has a second seat/x-session on which my kids can surf the internet, type >> up homework, and also play educational games (for the last one i'm >> likely to need a windows virtual machine). >> >> Because it's doing double duty, i'd like this machine to have a fairly >> powerful cpu; but because it'll be on a lot of the time, i'd like it to >> have a half-decent power profile -- especially, i guess, really good >> sleep states for all the processors, and a bios that supports timed >> wake-up, so i can setup mythtv to shutdown if it doesn't have any >> recording to do. it's been a while since i bought any new hardware, and >> i just wondered if anyone out there had any recent experience looking >> for similar attributes. also if you have any experience running >> multiple x-sessions -- e.g. can i run one session on the video out of my >> nvidia card, and a second one on the vga? i'd love to hear about some >> helpful stories. Thanks as always! > > I am not sure X officially supports running multi session. The problem > is that all mice and keyboards are by default combined into a single > source of input. You have to work against that system and split it up > and run X in raw mode for at least one of the keyboards. Interestingly, X does at least support multiple pointers and keyboards: http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=mpx http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/144 What these essentially say is that A) someone developed a "Multi-Pointer X Server" and B) that it's been merged with Xorg. So the support appears to be there - although whether it's made it to the distros yet is open to question when the merge was May 2008. A short session with google also turned up this page: http://www.linuxtoys.org/multiseat/multiseat.html It references the tyler blog someone else mentioned, but seems to be more straight-forward. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 20:27:27 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:27:27 -0700 Subject: Any Gentoo Users on this list? In-Reply-To: References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090218235331.GA30007@redhat.com> <1235029695.11972.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0902190628y11d618b8na946c3979323dcc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090219132727.46581v7dmv27hqro@webmail.ualberta.ca> Hi, I would happily help you install it. I've done it at least 5 times.. probably around 10. However, I would like to know why you're considering Gentoo. Based on my experience, I would personally recommend against Gentoo in most cases. Gentoo was among my list of distros that I kept going back and forth between but now it's no longer in my good books.. last time I installed it I felt like Gentoo had gone downhill for good. I'm replying to the list in the hopes that if some of my dated knowledge is in need of correction. I mostly used it as a Desktop not as a server. I don't want to start a flame war or anything, but I'll list why I think so in the form of bullet points with a summary paragraph at the end. - USE Flags As Colin mentioned maybe the biggest pro for Gentoo is the USE flags which I have yet to see on another of the major Linux distros. Like many things in Gentoo this seems to be a pro at first (wow, hey, I can customize my Linux installation!) and it does its job mostly well. So if that's what you want then great. If you don't want any KDE apps or all the libs you can prevent them from being installed and any other packages that use them optionally can turn off support for them. Let me not undermine the versatility of these flags; you can override them on a per-install basis. So if you want some apps to have X capability built-in and some not then you have a default USE flag which you override whenever you need X. Several months down the road you hear about this cool new KDE app, in my case it was some Movie editing software-- name is escaping me-- that Marcel Gagne wrote about in a Linux Journal article. Guess what? I had to wait overnight for it to install because I'd disabled KDE apps and libs up to that point so I had to build something like 50-100 of them. Now I have KDE installed but none of my previous apps built with support for KDE. So I have to rebuild them all with KDE support, which I can do nicely with emerge on a good day, but it will still take forever. - Blocking packages, blocking updates, custom versions Another cool feature of Gentoo is that you can block unwanted packages quite well.. you can even do it by specific version numbers. So if you do an update but you don't want your Java version to be touched then you can add a rule that blocks Java from being updated. You can even block packages altogether, and you can install specific versions too. - Bootstrapped Linux One of the coolest things about Gentoo was their idea of stages. You had three installation stages, stage1, stage2, and stage3 install. The first stage was the bare bones of the system such as coreutils and gcc. Stage2 was more of the core, and stage3 was the rest. The great thing was that you could choose to build every one of these stages or download pre-built binaries. Doing a stage1 installation meant that all your coreutils, gcc, everything you'd need to compile the kernel would have your CPU's optimizations, and then you'd proceed to build everything in stage2 using your optimized stage1 binaries, etc. If you were short on time you could download pre-built stages and start building from a further point. They dropped support for stage1 and stage2 installations last time I tried (on x86 and/or amd64 -- very common arch!). So the coolest part of Gentoo was just thrown away. - Package system (emerge vs. apt and yum) emerge downloads a source which is then built rather than downloading binaries. This, in theory, is one of the coolest things about the distro because it allows you to do customizing via the USE flags *and* allows you to compile the source with optimization flags according to your architecture. In other distros you're download pre-built binaries meant to work on all versions of your architecture, so ie. x86 may not have anything more than 386 CPU ptimizations in it (so packages are build for many archs, like the kernel, but most not). So at first this make you think that everything will run faster, but studies show that there's hardly a difference if at all. In fact Debian often beats Gentoo in the performance tests. The biggest problem I had with emerge is I found a lack of maintenance for packages. This one package didn't install because one of the source files was missing a newline character at the end of it (or something as trivial) and my gcc version marked that as an error rather than a warning. bugs.gentoo.org had a bug fix that was dated to several months before. It boggled my mind that such a simple patch had not been submitted to fix the build script in that amount of time. This is only one such story, but in general emerge failed more often than both apt and yum in my experience. Most of the time it's a quick fix, but it does get annoying. One plus of portage/emerge is that you can mix and match stable and unstable packages by overriding a flag when using emerge. Again this is customizable on a per-package and version range basis. Last time I checked (over a year ago) most amd64 packages were still in "unstable". Most distros had the same packages in stable by now. I'm not talking about rare unheard-of packages, I'm talking about mostly common ones. That was the last straw for me because it just seemed to me that Gentoo was getting nowhere by then. This was slightly after their main president/leader had left. Sorry I don't remember his or her name. So in summary Gentoo seems like it might be a fun toy. If customization is important to you then Gentoo will be a good distro as long as you're patient enough to wait for emerge to build packages (updating your packages is usually an overnight thing too). But nowadays I'm getting the impression that Arch is the better way to go if you want something custom (though I've never tried it so don't hold me to that!). A lot of the cool things that spark your inner geek actually aren't as cool/good as you'd expect and that's only if it's still support for it. Package maintenance is good, but not as good as other major Linux distros. Marc -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 20:42:05 2009 From: teddy-5sHjOODPK7E at public.gmane.org (Teddy Mills) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:42:05 -0500 Subject: Any Gentoo Users on this list? In-Reply-To: <20090219132727.46581v7dmv27hqro-2RFepEojUI3J95IEyCi5CCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090218235331.GA30007@redhat.com> <1235029695.11972.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0902190628y11d618b8na946c3979323dcc8@mail.gmail.com> <20090219132727.46581v7dmv27hqro@webmail.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <499DC41D.4000207@tmis.ca> Our Linux ISP datacenter at one point was 80% Gentoo. Clients servers as well as our own. Now the swing I see is towards Ubuntu-servers. I got tired have having 8 miles of compiling to do. 'People cycles' are more important than 'CPU cycles'. /teddy lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > Hi, > > I would happily help you install it. I've done it at least 5 times.. > probably around 10. > > However, I would like to know why you're considering Gentoo. Based on > my experience, I would personally recommend against Gentoo in most > cases. Gentoo was among my list of distros that I kept going back and > forth between but now it's no longer in my good books.. last time I > installed it I felt like Gentoo had gone downhill for good. I'm > replying to the list in the hopes that if some of my dated knowledge > is in need of correction. I mostly used it as a Desktop not as a server. > > I don't want to start a flame war or anything, but I'll list why I > think so in the form of bullet points with a summary paragraph at the > end. > > - USE Flags > > As Colin mentioned maybe the biggest pro for Gentoo is the USE flags > which I have yet to see on another of the major Linux distros. Like > many things in Gentoo this seems to be a pro at first (wow, hey, I can > customize my Linux installation!) and it does its job mostly well. So > if that's what you want then great. If you don't want any KDE apps or > all the libs you can prevent them from being installed and any other > packages that use them optionally can turn off support for them. Let > me not undermine the versatility of these flags; you can override them > on a per-install basis. So if you want some apps to have X capability > built-in and some not then you have a default USE flag which you > override whenever you need X. > > Several months down the road you hear about this cool new KDE app, in > my case it was some Movie editing software-- name is escaping me-- > that Marcel Gagne wrote about in a Linux Journal article. Guess what? > I had to wait overnight for it to install because I'd disabled KDE > apps and libs up to that point so I had to build something like 50-100 > of them. > > Now I have KDE installed but none of my previous apps built with > support for KDE. So I have to rebuild them all with KDE support, which > I can do nicely with emerge on a good day, but it will still take > forever. > > - Blocking packages, blocking updates, custom versions > > Another cool feature of Gentoo is that you can block unwanted packages > quite well.. you can even do it by specific version numbers. So if you > do an update but you don't want your Java version to be touched then > you can add a rule that blocks Java from being updated. You can even > block packages altogether, and you can install specific versions too. > > - Bootstrapped Linux > > One of the coolest things about Gentoo was their idea of stages. You > had three installation stages, stage1, stage2, and stage3 install. The > first stage was the bare bones of the system such as coreutils and > gcc. Stage2 was more of the core, and stage3 was the rest. The great > thing was that you could choose to build every one of these stages or > download pre-built binaries. Doing a stage1 installation meant that > all your coreutils, gcc, everything you'd need to compile the kernel > would have your CPU's optimizations, and then you'd proceed to build > everything in stage2 using your optimized stage1 binaries, etc. If you > were short on time you could download pre-built stages and start > building from a further point. > > They dropped support for stage1 and stage2 installations last time I > tried (on x86 and/or amd64 -- very common arch!). So the coolest part > of Gentoo was just thrown away. > > - Package system (emerge vs. apt and yum) > > emerge downloads a source which is then built rather than downloading > binaries. This, in theory, is one of the coolest things about the > distro because it allows you to do customizing via the USE flags *and* > allows you to compile the source with optimization flags according to > your architecture. In other distros you're download pre-built binaries > meant to work on all versions of your architecture, so ie. x86 may not > have anything more than 386 CPU ptimizations in it (so packages are > build for many archs, like the kernel, but most not). So at first this > make you think that everything will run faster, but studies show that > there's hardly a difference if at all. In fact Debian often beats > Gentoo in the performance tests. > > The biggest problem I had with emerge is I found a lack of maintenance > for packages. This one package didn't install because one of the > source files was missing a newline character at the end of it (or > something as trivial) and my gcc version marked that as an error > rather than a warning. bugs.gentoo.org had a bug fix that was dated to > several months before. It boggled my mind that such a simple patch had > not been submitted to fix the build script in that amount of time. > This is only one such story, but in general emerge failed more often > than both apt and yum in my experience. Most of the time it's a quick > fix, but it does get annoying. > > One plus of portage/emerge is that you can mix and match stable and > unstable packages by overriding a flag when using emerge. Again this > is customizable on a per-package and version range basis. > > Last time I checked (over a year ago) most amd64 packages were still > in "unstable". Most distros had the same packages in stable by now. > I'm not talking about rare unheard-of packages, I'm talking about > mostly common ones. That was the last straw for me because it just > seemed to me that Gentoo was getting nowhere by then. This was > slightly after their main president/leader had left. Sorry I don't > remember his or her name. > > > > So in summary Gentoo seems like it might be a fun toy. If > customization is important to you then Gentoo will be a good distro as > long as you're patient enough to wait for emerge to build packages > (updating your packages is usually an overnight thing too). But > nowadays I'm getting the impression that Arch is the better way to go > if you want something custom (though I've never tried it so don't hold > me to that!). A lot of the cool things that spark your inner geek > actually aren't as cool/good as you'd expect and that's only if it's > still support for it. Package maintenance is good, but not as good as > other major Linux distros. > > Marc > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 20:50:48 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:50:48 -0500 Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090219205047.GE7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:33:37AM -0500, Ken Burtch wrote: > > Any socket gurus out there? > > I had a question from a guy at work writing his own socket server in C. > He is writing an application which needs to handle thousands of users. > > He would like to know the most efficient way of servicing sockets. > Although he blocks on sockets with a select(2) call to the kernel, he > must still search thorugh the select list to determine which socket needs > to be serviced. He would like to know if there is a more efficient way > to handle the socket stack. In particular, he heard that there is a way > to have the kernel call a C function to processess particular sockets but > he doesn't know how to set that up nor is he certain if he has to use a > custom kernel module to achive this. Can anyone give him pointers on how > to make searching through the select(2) results more efficient or give > him a more efficient alternative to select(2) for managing large numbers > of sockets? I use pthreads instead, and launch a thread for every incoming request. It might be a problem if you actually have thousands of simultanious connections. Since each thread only has a single connection to listen for, there is no searching needed. I don't like select very much personally. Also with a single thread and select, you can only be processing one request at a time, while with threads you could be using multiple CPUs and handling multiple sockets at once. Locking of course is an issue to deal with for threaded code. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 01:56:06 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:56:06 -0500 Subject: Any Gentoo Users on this list? In-Reply-To: <499DC41D.4000207-5sHjOODPK7E@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090218235331.GA30007@redhat.com> <1235029695.11972.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0902190628y11d618b8na946c3979323dcc8@mail.gmail.com> <20090219132727.46581v7dmv27hqro@webmail.ualberta.ca> <499DC41D.4000207@tmis.ca> Message-ID: <1235094966.11996.53.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello Teddy, Marc et al, The reason I want to run Gentoo is so I can understand Linux. Yes, Gentoo is a royal pain for a newb so I am going through a trial by fire. I have a teenaged brother who installed my desktop system. He is a whiz at linux/bsd/whatever--but get him to explain anything to you...well, deal with a frustrated teenager see how far you get. So I have DWM as my GUI and I am learning console in the proccess. No KDE, no Gnome--just the more user intensive way of doing things. (Prior to that I ran Ubuntu with Gnome, KDE and XFCE.) With Gentoo, guess what? I am learning how the system works. In a perverse way, I like DWM more than any other GUI I used. I want an optimal desktop system and to learn to use Linux, Gentoo is perfect for that. Now getting my graphics card configured, the damn printer to work, or find my music files on my hard drive is another matter. I am optomistic I will get those things working in about a year or so. Now I just e-mail files to print, run to a net cafe and print out the documents there, listen to the radio more often and read books. When I ran Ubuntu--I would have apps mysteriously not working. So I figured, 'okay, just learn Linux already so I won't have a fit everytime something doesn't work.' I guess I will have to wear a hair shirt or whip myself for Linux next. -Ib- On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 15:42 -0500, Teddy Mills wrote: > Our Linux ISP datacenter at one point was 80% Gentoo. > Clients servers as well as our own. > > Now the swing I see is towards Ubuntu-servers. > > I got tired have having 8 miles of compiling to do. > 'People cycles' are more important than 'CPU cycles'. > > /teddy > > > > > > lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I would happily help you install it. I've done it at least 5 times.. > > probably around 10. > > > > However, I would like to know why you're considering Gentoo. Based on > > my experience, I would personally recommend against Gentoo in most > > cases. Gentoo was among my list of distros that I kept going back and > > forth between but now it's no longer in my good books.. last time I > > installed it I felt like Gentoo had gone downhill for good. I'm > > replying to the list in the hopes that if some of my dated knowledge > > is in need of correction. I mostly used it as a Desktop not as a server. > > > > I don't want to start a flame war or anything, but I'll list why I > > think so in the form of bullet points with a summary paragraph at the > > end. > > > > - USE Flags > > > > As Colin mentioned maybe the biggest pro for Gentoo is the USE flags > > which I have yet to see on another of the major Linux distros. Like > > many things in Gentoo this seems to be a pro at first (wow, hey, I can > > customize my Linux installation!) and it does its job mostly well. So > > if that's what you want then great. If you don't want any KDE apps or > > all the libs you can prevent them from being installed and any other > > packages that use them optionally can turn off support for them. Let > > me not undermine the versatility of these flags; you can override them > > on a per-install basis. So if you want some apps to have X capability > > built-in and some not then you have a default USE flag which you > > override whenever you need X. > > > > Several months down the road you hear about this cool new KDE app, in > > my case it was some Movie editing software-- name is escaping me-- > > that Marcel Gagne wrote about in a Linux Journal article. Guess what? > > I had to wait overnight for it to install because I'd disabled KDE > > apps and libs up to that point so I had to build something like 50-100 > > of them. > > > > Now I have KDE installed but none of my previous apps built with > > support for KDE. So I have to rebuild them all with KDE support, which > > I can do nicely with emerge on a good day, but it will still take > > forever. > > > > - Blocking packages, blocking updates, custom versions > > > > Another cool feature of Gentoo is that you can block unwanted packages > > quite well.. you can even do it by specific version numbers. So if you > > do an update but you don't want your Java version to be touched then > > you can add a rule that blocks Java from being updated. You can even > > block packages altogether, and you can install specific versions too. > > > > - Bootstrapped Linux > > > > One of the coolest things about Gentoo was their idea of stages. You > > had three installation stages, stage1, stage2, and stage3 install. The > > first stage was the bare bones of the system such as coreutils and > > gcc. Stage2 was more of the core, and stage3 was the rest. The great > > thing was that you could choose to build every one of these stages or > > download pre-built binaries. Doing a stage1 installation meant that > > all your coreutils, gcc, everything you'd need to compile the kernel > > would have your CPU's optimizations, and then you'd proceed to build > > everything in stage2 using your optimized stage1 binaries, etc. If you > > were short on time you could download pre-built stages and start > > building from a further point. > > > > They dropped support for stage1 and stage2 installations last time I > > tried (on x86 and/or amd64 -- very common arch!). So the coolest part > > of Gentoo was just thrown away. > > > > - Package system (emerge vs. apt and yum) > > > > emerge downloads a source which is then built rather than downloading > > binaries. This, in theory, is one of the coolest things about the > > distro because it allows you to do customizing via the USE flags *and* > > allows you to compile the source with optimization flags according to > > your architecture. In other distros you're download pre-built binaries > > meant to work on all versions of your architecture, so ie. x86 may not > > have anything more than 386 CPU ptimizations in it (so packages are > > build for many archs, like the kernel, but most not). So at first this > > make you think that everything will run faster, but studies show that > > there's hardly a difference if at all. In fact Debian often beats > > Gentoo in the performance tests. > > > > The biggest problem I had with emerge is I found a lack of maintenance > > for packages. This one package didn't install because one of the > > source files was missing a newline character at the end of it (or > > something as trivial) and my gcc version marked that as an error > > rather than a warning. bugs.gentoo.org had a bug fix that was dated to > > several months before. It boggled my mind that such a simple patch had > > not been submitted to fix the build script in that amount of time. > > This is only one such story, but in general emerge failed more often > > than both apt and yum in my experience. Most of the time it's a quick > > fix, but it does get annoying. > > > > One plus of portage/emerge is that you can mix and match stable and > > unstable packages by overriding a flag when using emerge. Again this > > is customizable on a per-package and version range basis. > > > > Last time I checked (over a year ago) most amd64 packages were still > > in "unstable". Most distros had the same packages in stable by now. > > I'm not talking about rare unheard-of packages, I'm talking about > > mostly common ones. That was the last straw for me because it just > > seemed to me that Gentoo was getting nowhere by then. This was > > slightly after their main president/leader had left. Sorry I don't > > remember his or her name. > > > > > > > > So in summary Gentoo seems like it might be a fun toy. If > > customization is important to you then Gentoo will be a good distro as > > long as you're patient enough to wait for emerge to build packages > > (updating your packages is usually an overnight thing too). But > > nowadays I'm getting the impression that Arch is the better way to go > > if you want something custom (though I've never tried it so don't hold > > me to that!). A lot of the cool things that spark your inner geek > > actually aren't as cool/good as you'd expect and that's only if it's > > still support for it. Package maintenance is good, but not as good as > > other major Linux distros. > > > > Marc > > -- > > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 21:09:26 2009 From: clifford_ilkay-biY6FKoJMRdBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (CLIFFORD ILKAY) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:09:26 -0500 Subject: Any Gentoo Users on this list? In-Reply-To: <20090219132727.46581v7dmv27hqro-2RFepEojUI3J95IEyCi5CCwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090218235331.GA30007@redhat.com> <1235029695.11972.26.camel@khider.homenetwork> <3a97ef0902190628y11d618b8na946c3979323dcc8@mail.gmail.com> <20090219132727.46581v7dmv27hqro@webmail.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <499DCA86.6080401@dinamis.com> lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org wrote: [snip] > - Blocking packages, blocking updates, custom versions > > Another cool feature of Gentoo is that you can block unwanted packages > quite well.. you can even do it by specific version numbers. So if you > do an update but you don't want your Java version to be touched then you > can add a rule that blocks Java from being updated. You can even block > packages altogether, and you can install specific versions too. YUM and APT both have ways of doing this. [snip] > The biggest problem I had with emerge... [snip] ... was that "rolling upgrades" were illusory when you had major changes in glibc versions. About three years ago, which was my second attempt at using Gentoo seriously, there were many tales of woe on the Gentoo forums about how non-deterministic it was to upgrade when you had major changes like that. It was easy to get your machine into a state where you couldn't go forward or go back and the easiest upgrade path was to just reinstall at that point. I didn't see the point of Gentoo if "rolling upgrades" didn't work reliably. Today, I run Kubuntu on my desktop and I'm indifferent, at best, to it. We run Debian Etch, Ubuntu LTS, some old Mandriva that will eventually get replaced by something else, CentOS, and Fedora 10 in our hosting environment. Though I really like Debian, I'm leaning more towards the Red Hat/CentOS/Fedora camp these days because of projects like Cobbler and FreeIPA. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 +1 416-410-3326 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3286 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 21:20:10 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:20:10 -0500 Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2009-02-19, Ken Burtch wrote: > I had a question from a guy at work writing his own socket server in C. > He is writing an application which needs to handle thousands of users. I'd suggest being careful to ensure that you're solving the right problem... The "c10k" site - http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html - points to the "direct" ways of attacking this by trying to do "highly concurrent I/O." I'd suggest considering the idea of aggregating requests together and then having some central processes that do "batch processing" on them in order to get efficiencies of scale on that processing. This tends to get handled via "message passing" or "message queuing" systems; things that would be worth looking at (for ideas, if not implementation) would include: - SIMPL - QNX-style messaging http://sourceforge.net/projects/simpl/ - Spread - providing a high performance messaging bus resilient to faults - http://www.spread.org/ - AMQP - an open standard (with several free software implementations) fro Message Oriented Middleware - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Message_Queuing_Protocol Using messaging is likely to be easier to think about, which is of non-zero value :-). -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 21:21:47 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:21:47 -0500 Subject: serious xfs (file ystem) issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090219212147.GF7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 01:37:45PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > Got this problem and I am just seeking help here in case someone has a quick > solution that can get us out of the problem. > > We have a mysql database that run on xfs. About noon today, the database > died and a quick digging pointed to an issue with the file system. We have > tried file system check, but the restarting the database causes the problem > to reappear again. Now, I am not sure whether this is a bug in xfs, dmks or > data, and thats where I am seeking some assistance. > > Here is the tech details > - Linux database 2.6.18-92.1.10.el5 #1 SMP Tue Aug 5 07:42:41 EDT 2008 > x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux > - kmod-xfs-0.4-1.2.6.18_92.1.10.el5 > - xfsprogs-2.9.4-1.el5.centos Why are you using an external xfs version when the kernel contains xfs support already? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 21:31:08 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:31:08 -0500 Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: <1235079999.11996.36.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <499DCF9C.8080506@utoronto.ca> I. Khider wrote: > Hello All, > > What does TLUG think of reporting HP to the Better Business Bureau about > their anti-Linux policy? > > Linux is used in the business and public service world, and this policy > goes against that. I agree tech support can be voided, but not hardware. > I have filed reports against big business before and think maybe this it > is time to do so again. I suppose I would have to buy the machine before > I file the report...or not? > > HP has 'business laptops', so their policy is anti-business. They are > not selling what is advertised. > > Anyway, what does everyone here think about the feasibility of this? Yours is a clear case of exclusive dealing and perhaps tied selling, not false advertising etc. However, I'm not sure what Canada says about it outside of the banking world e.g. http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/eng/consumers/rights/tiedselling/rightstiedselling-eng.asp "However, banks in Canada are not allowed to engage in "coercive tied selling" or "forced purchases". This means that banks are not allowed to unduly pressure or coerce you into obtaining a product or service from them or from their affiliates, as a condition for obtaining another product or service from them. This practice, called coercive tied selling, is illegal in Canada." More relevant to your purposes is the Competition Bureau: http://www.stratdemo.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/01246.html You have to prove the following (quoting): The exclusive dealing, tied-selling and market restriction sections of the Competition Act may apply when the following conditions are met: * The conduct is engaged in by a major supplier or is widespread in a market. A firm with less than 35 percent market share is not generally considered to be a major supplier. However, market share is only one factor that must be considered. Others include the existence of barriers to entry that limit competition, a lack of substitute products, and lack of competition among existing suppliers. * The conduct in question constitutes a practice. Different restrictive acts considered together, as well as repeated instances of one act with one or more customers, may constitute a practice. * The restrictive practice discourages a firm's entry into, or expansion in, the market; in other words, you must show an exclusionary effect. * The practice has substantially lessened competition, or is likely to do so. This may happen when the supplier's restrictive practice prevents, for example, a rival's entry into the market, potential competition, product innovation or lower prices. I know from experience that with Lenovo when buying a thinkpad last year, speaking to a manager and mentioning exclusive dealing and tied selling quiets them down pretty quickly. I got a $75 credit because I refused to accept the vista eula. At first Lenovo said that they wouldn't honour the license from microsoft that plainly explained that the oem is responsible for refunding a customer's money. After reading it to the manager over the phone he admitted that they don't have an actual price of windows to refer to, which is when I noted the competition bureau would probably have something to say about that. I was also told that Linux would not allow me to use my warranty if it was installed on the thinkpad with no version of windows that their technicians could use. That despite the fact that Lenovo offered SuSE on the very Thinkpad that I purchased.. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 03:13:16 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:13:16 -0500 Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: <499DCF9C.8080506-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> <499DCF9C.8080506@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1235099596.11996.59.camel@khider.homenetwork> Jamon, This is beautiful! Fantastic! Do you mind if I use this in another e-mail I am composing to Mark Hurd--I will not mention your name--unless you want me to. Based on this, I will take HP to the BBB. On top of that, I want a credit for Windows. Why should I pay for something I do not want? That money can go to a new battery or something. I'm not Bill Gates! I will file the report tommorow or Monday and update the list about the battle. Thanks! -Ib Khider- On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 16:31 -0500, Jamon Camisso wrote: > > Yours is a clear case of exclusive dealing and perhaps tied selling, > not > false advertising etc. However, I'm not sure what Canada says about > it > outside of the banking world e.g. > http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/eng/consumers/rights/tiedselling/rightstiedselling-eng.asp > > "However, banks in Canada are not allowed to engage in "coercive tied > selling" or "forced purchases". This means that banks are not allowed > to > unduly pressure or coerce you into obtaining a product or service > from > them or from their affiliates, as a condition for obtaining another > product or service from them. This practice, called coercive tied > selling, is illegal in Canada." > > More relevant to your purposes is the Competition Bureau: > http://www.stratdemo.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/01246.html > > You have to prove the following (quoting): > > The exclusive dealing, tied-selling and market restriction sections > of > the Competition Act may apply when the following conditions are met: > > * The conduct is engaged in by a major supplier or is widespread > in > a market. A firm with less than 35 percent market share is not > generally > considered to be a major supplier. However, market share is only one > factor that must be considered. Others include the existence of > barriers > to entry that limit competition, a lack of substitute products, and > lack > of competition among existing suppliers. > * The conduct in question constitutes a practice. Different > restrictive acts considered together, as well as repeated instances > of > one act with one or more customers, may constitute a practice. > * The restrictive practice discourages a firm's entry into, or > expansion in, the market; in other words, you must show an > exclusionary > effect. > * The practice has substantially lessened competition, or is > likely > to do so. This may happen when the supplier's restrictive practice > prevents, for example, a rival's entry into the market, potential > competition, product innovation or lower prices. > > I know from experience that with Lenovo when buying a thinkpad last > year, speaking to a manager and mentioning exclusive dealing and tied > selling quiets them down pretty quickly. I got a $75 credit because I > refused to accept the vista eula. At first Lenovo said that they > wouldn't honour the license from microsoft that plainly explained > that > the oem is responsible for refunding a customer's money. After > reading > it to the manager over the phone he admitted that they don't have an > actual price of windows to refer to, which is when I noted the > competition bureau would probably have something to say about that. > > I was also told that Linux would not allow me to use my warranty if > it > was installed on the thinkpad with no version of windows that their > technicians could use. That despite the fact that Lenovo offered SuSE > on > the very Thinkpad that I purchased.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 22:16:51 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:16:51 -0500 Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: <29602_1235081627_n1JMDjiJ032517_1235099596.11996.59.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> <499DCF9C.8080506@utoronto.ca> <29602_1235081627_n1JMDjiJ032517_1235099596.11996.59.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <499DDA53.5000201@utoronto.ca> I. Khider wrote: > Jamon, > > This is beautiful! Fantastic! > > Do you mind if I use this in another e-mail I am composing to Mark > Hurd--I will not mention your name--unless you want me to. Based on > this, I will take HP to the BBB. On top of that, I want a credit for > Windows. Why should I pay for something I do not want? That money can go > to a new battery or something. I'm not Bill Gates! > > I will file the report tommorow or Monday and update the list about the > battle. No problem either way. Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 23:24:52 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:24:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: <20090219205047.GE7313-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090219205047.GE7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | I use pthreads instead, and launch a thread for every incoming request. | It might be a problem if you actually have thousands of simultanious | connections. | | Since each thread only has a single connection to listen for, there is | no searching needed. Threads are a very general purpose mechanism and are implemented quite expensively compared with a reasonable "get next event" loop. | I don't like select very much personally. Why? But, for high efficiency, with thousands of file descriptors, other mechanisms exist that don't have to shovel large bitstrings in and out of the kernel at every call. (I don't do this so I don't remember the details. epoll(7), I think, but what horrible man pages.) | Also with a single thread and select, you can only be processing one | request at a time, while with threads you could be using multiple CPUs | and handling multiple sockets at once. Locking of course is an issue | to deal with for threaded code. With select, you can (should) process all the things that come ready at the time of the select call returning. Under load, this is likely to be more than one (heck, that is a symptom of heavy load). This matters because often it is the process switching that is expensive rather than the actual transaction processing. If some (but not all) transactions are expensive to process, they can then be farmed off to other threads or processes. Anecdote: I first realized this when I talked with the designer of a board to handle 64 (I think) serial lines. I always thought interrupts were the way to go, but they found polling worked better for the worst case. If you can handle the worst case, the rest is easy. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 23:33:19 2009 From: phillip.mills1-HInyCGIudOg at public.gmane.org (Phillip Mills) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:33:19 -0500 Subject: Fwd: feedback on second draft References: <5CE12384-E52D-4684-8E5F-9DFC6EE49AF3@garthsonleadership.ca> Message-ID: This is a comment from my wife who, as she writes below, has been involved in RFI processes from both sides for quite some time. Begin forwarded message: > From: Jane Garthson > > Evan, you don't know me but my husband, Phil Mills, belongs to tlug > and knows I write reports and answer RFIs and RFPs. And I strongly > support the values of Open Source. > > The document is very well written. However, it starts with a > strong negative, which will discourage the civil servants involved > (I spent 21 years in government). An opening paragraph that is > fully positive (congratulating them on asking the questions, on > considering Open Source, on seeking to maximize value obtained for > resources, etc.) will make the following clarifications much more > palatable. > > Jane Garthson > http://www.garthsonleadership.ca > 416-512-6765 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 19 23:56:17 2009 From: william.muriithi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (William Muriithi) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:56:17 -0500 Subject: serious xfs (file ystem) issues In-Reply-To: <20090219212147.GF7313-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090219212147.GF7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Sorensen, > > > Why are you using an external xfs version when the kernel contains xfs > support already? > Come again. I am not sure I understood your question properly. Would you mind to explain further please Regards, William > > -- > Len Sorensen > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 00:10:55 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:10:55 -0500 Subject: Fwd: feedback on second draft In-Reply-To: References: <5CE12384-E52D-4684-8E5F-9DFC6EE49AF3@garthsonleadership.ca> Message-ID: <499DF50F.8050909@telly.org> Phillip Mills wrote: >> However, it starts with a strong negative, which will discourage the >> civil servants involved (I spent 21 years in government). An opening >> paragraph that is fully positive (congratulating them on asking the >> questions, on considering Open Source, on seeking to maximize value >> obtained for resources, etc.) will make the following clarifications >> much more palatable. This is excellent feedback and I only wish I'd had it a few hours ago since the deadline was 2pm today. Could Jane comment if there is any point or advantage in re-submitting after the deadline? - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 00:50:32 2009 From: ekg_ab-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (E K) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:50:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: serious xfs (file ystem) issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <920616.82083.qm@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Can it be that the xfs module is corrupt? The other possibility is that the file system is corrupt which the filesystem check does not detect or fix. I would try the following 1. shut down mysql and try to read and write large directory/files on the xfs file system (assuming you got ample disk space) to make sure the filesystem is all fine. If xfs give you the similar problem then either you got to recreate the filesystem or reinstall the machine. 2. remove the mysql files (they may be in /var/mysql) and restoring them from a backup. (this might work if the problem is with mysql files which might probably force mysql to request file reading outside of xfs file allocations). Last resort is, of course, to start from a clean slate and restore the database from backups, upgrading the system on the way. Hope that helps. EK --- On Thu, 2/19/09, William Muriithi wrote: > From: William Muriithi > Subject: [TLUG]: serious xfs (file ystem) issues > To: "TLUG mailing list" > Received: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 1:37 PM > Hi pals > > Got this problem and I am just seeking help here in case > someone has a quick > solution that can get us out of the problem. > > We have a mysql database that run on xfs. About noon today, > the database > died and a quick digging pointed to an issue with the file > system. We have > tried file system check, but the restarting the database > causes the problem > to reappear again. Now, I am not sure whether this is a bug > in xfs, dmks or > data, and thats where I am seeking some assistance. > > Here is the tech details > - Linux database 2.6.18-92.1.10.el5 #1 SMP Tue Aug 5 > 07:42:41 EDT 2008 > x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux > - kmod-xfs-0.4-1.2.6.18_92.1.10.el5 > - xfsprogs-2.9.4-1.el5.centos > > Below are the logs. What would the most advisable way to go > about it if it > were in you in facing this problem: > > Thannks for any assistance: > > Regards, > > William > > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: Filesystem > "dm-0": XFS internal error > xfs_alloc_read_agf at line 2190 of file > /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_alloc.c. > Caller > 0xffffffff8858d0f4 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_corruption_error+0xe4/0xf6 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:kmem_zone_zalloc+0x1e/0x2f > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_buf_item_init+0x56/0xc8 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_trans_read_buf+0x27a/0x2c7 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_alloc_read_agf+0x110/0x189 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_alloc_fix_freelist+0x45/0x413 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_alloc_fix_freelist+0x45/0x413 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_free_extent+0x88/0xc9 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xlog_recover_finish+0x15a/0x244 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_mountfs+0xa24/0xc30 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_mount+0x762/0x83b > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_fs_fill_super+0x0/0x1e3 > Feb 19 12:08:22 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_fs_fill_super+0x7e/0x1e3 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: Filesystem > "dm-0": XFS internal error > xfs_alloc_read_agf at line 2190 of file > /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_alloc.c. > Caller > 0xffffffff8858d0f4 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_corruption_error+0xe4/0xf6 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:kmem_zone_zalloc+0x1e/0x2f > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_buf_item_init+0x56/0xc8 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_trans_read_buf+0x27a/0x2c7 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_alloc_read_agf+0x110/0x189 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_alloc_fix_freelist+0x45/0x413 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_alloc_fix_freelist+0x45/0x413 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_free_extent+0x88/0xc9 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_bmap_finish+0xf0/0x169 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_itruncate_finish+0x172/0x2b3 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_inactive_free_eofblocks+0x190/0x1d6 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_release+0x94/0xc5 > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > [] > :xfs:xfs_file_release+0x1a/0x1e > Feb 19 12:24:35 database kernel: > xfs_force_shutdown(dm-0,0x8) called from > line 4267 of file > /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_bmap.c. > Return > address = 0xffffffff8859a2ea > Feb 19 12:26:55 database kernel: > xfs_force_shutdown(dm-0,0x1) called from > line 424 of file > /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_rw.c. > Return > address = 0xffffffff885d17f1 > Feb 19 12:26:55 database kernel: > xfs_force_shutdown(dm-0,0x1) called from > line 424 of file > /home/buildsvn/rpmbuild/BUILD/xfs-kmod-0.4/_kmod_build_/xfs_rw.c. > Return > address = 0xffffffff885d17f1 > > > -- > For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve > the quality of > life, please press three. > ?Alice Kahn __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 01:37:28 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:37:28 -0500 Subject: The state of 64-bit Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <20090212183224.GC9942-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <4992F450.7090002@ualberta.ca> <20090212183224.GC9942@redhat.com> Message-ID: <499E0958.3040307@ualberta.ca> Andrew Overholt wrote: > Hi, > > * Marc Lanctot [2009-02-11 10:53]: >> - Can I use an up-to-date Sun 64-bit Java plugin for Firefox (let's say >> "up-to-date means" 5.0 or later) > > I use OpenJDK (6) with the IcedTea browser plugin and it works fine on > x86_64 Fedora 10 out of the box. I'm told on good authority that the > proprietary Sun JDK/JRE 6u12 and up releases now also include a 64-bit > browser plugin. Just some installation notes on my 64-bit Ubuntu 8.10 install on my new Dell T3400. I didn't have to do any repartitioning for Windows (XP x64) because I just re-used disks I had in my old machine. So now I have a dual-boot and left Windows on the disk that it came on. I will confirm that Sun's 64-bit Java plugin (JDK/JRE 6u12) is now working in my newly installed Ubuntu 8.10 amd64 and it passes the "Text Twist test" I mentioned before. Thanks to Giles Orr for confirming it on his Debian machine. I found it hard to find the right way to install it from the manual downliad.. because it has changed from previous versions, the file names are different and the docs on their site nor the READMEs don't seem to be updated. After a bit of search (the /sixth/ link on Google, oh my!) I found it on their dev site: https://jdk6.dev.java.net/plugin2/#INSTALLATION So the file you have to symlink is now 'libnpjp2.so' instead of 'libjavaplugin_oji.so' for anybody else that will have to do this manually any time soon. Of course, they include a file 'libjavaplugin_jni.so' in their package but that's not it. :) Documentation 1, Sun 0. Nobody mentioned that Adobe doens't have a 64-bit reader yet .. forget just the plugin, there is no 64-bit acroread period! Luckily I can do without that for the most part..... I hope. There are some monster-sized PDFs my girlfriend has to deal with for work purposes that have given me trouble in the past for any reader other than acroread.. but now they seem to work fine in evince. For some reason it didn't work well before. There is no 64-bit lightning or Google Provider yet. You can build them from source. Luckily they've been contributed: http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/calendar/lightning/releases/0.9/contrib/linux-x86_64/ For some reason the i686 Google Provider works with the 64-bit Lightning within 64-bit Thunderbird. Not sure how this works; maybe there's no actual library or shared object installed in it? Mplayer with the 64-bit essential codecs works, check. 64-bit Adobe Flash 10 plugin seems to be OK so far though I have not used it much yet. The printer was already setup and working after the install. FYI, this printer (Canon 3-in-1 PIXMA MP-520) is awesome for the price. And so far works quite well in Linux. I have not tried the scanner yet. Everything else is working like a charm. There's a noticeable increase in speed, and the thing is so quiet that we can't even tell if it's on. I can compile, play music, write email, cook, and play games without any noticeable slowdown. This machine rocks. I'd recommend it. I don't expect it to get sluggish or loud after I leave it on for several days but we'll have to see what happens. Marc -- Theory is when you know something, but it doesn't work. Practice is when something works, but you don't know why. Programmers combine theory and practice: Nothing works and they don't know why. -- Anonymous -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 14:22:51 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:22:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: References: <20090219205047.GE7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: Thanks for everyone's feedback. It was appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Lennart Sorensen > > | I use pthreads instead, and launch a thread for every incoming request. > | It might be a problem if you actually have thousands of simultanious > | connections. > | > | Since each thread only has a single connection to listen for, there is > | no searching needed. > > Threads are a very general purpose mechanism and are implemented quite > expensively compared with a reasonable "get next event" loop. > > | I don't like select very much personally. > > Why? > > But, for high efficiency, with thousands of file descriptors, other > mechanisms exist that don't have to shovel large bitstrings in and out > of the kernel at every call. (I don't do this so I don't remember the > details. epoll(7), I think, but what horrible man pages.) > > | Also with a single thread and select, you can only be processing one > | request at a time, while with threads you could be using multiple CPUs > | and handling multiple sockets at once. Locking of course is an issue > | to deal with for threaded code. > > With select, you can (should) process all the things that come ready at the > time of the select call returning. Under load, this is likely to be > more than one (heck, that is a symptom of heavy load). > > This matters because often it is the process switching that is > expensive rather than the actual transaction processing. > > If some (but not all) transactions are expensive to process, they can > then be farmed off to other threads or processes. > > Anecdote: > > I first realized this when I talked with the designer of a board to > handle 64 (I think) serial lines. I always thought interrupts were > the way to go, but they found polling worked better for the worst > case. If you can handle the worst case, the rest is easy. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 15:26:32 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:26:32 -0500 Subject: serious xfs (file ystem) issues In-Reply-To: References: <20090219212147.GF7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090220152632.GG7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 06:56:17PM -0500, William Muriithi wrote: > Come again. I am not sure I understood your question properly. Would you > mind to explain further please xfs has been supported by the linux kernel for years. Why do you hav a dkms module for xfs support? What purpose could it possibly serve? Is it a newer version than the 2.6.18 kernel provides? Is it an older version by some chance? Is it an extra buggy version? Could be the whole cause of your troubles. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 15:31:08 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:31:08 -0500 Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: References: <20090219205047.GE7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090220153107.GH7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 06:24:52PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Threads are a very general purpose mechanism and are implemented quite > expensively compared with a reasonable "get next event" loop. Threads are not expensive in linux. I wouldn't be surprised if the overhead of managing bitstrings in select costs more than threads. > | I don't like select very much personally. > > Why? > > But, for high efficiency, with thousands of file descriptors, other > mechanisms exist that don't have to shovel large bitstrings in and out > of the kernel at every call. (I don't do this so I don't remember the > details. epoll(7), I think, but what horrible man pages.) Because I like software that tries to scale, and single threaded processes using select on a huge number of sockets doesn't scale. I also think the select interface is awful. > | Also with a single thread and select, you can only be processing one > | request at a time, while with threads you could be using multiple CPUs > | and handling multiple sockets at once. Locking of course is an issue > | to deal with for threaded code. > > With select, you can (should) process all the things that come ready at the > time of the select call returning. Under load, this is likely to be > more than one (heck, that is a symptom of heavy load). > > This matters because often it is the process switching that is > expensive rather than the actual transaction processing. On a multi core system (as most are) you wouldn't even have to context switch (which is very cheap on linux too) > If some (but not all) transactions are expensive to process, they can > then be farmed off to other threads or processes. Which just means you are writing a scheduler to some extent, which is something the kernel already has, and its scheduler is often better than one thrown together without much thought into the design. > Anecdote: > > I first realized this when I talked with the designer of a board to > handle 64 (I think) serial lines. I always thought interrupts were > the way to go, but they found polling worked better for the worst > case. If you can handle the worst case, the rest is easy. Sometimes interrupts are good, sometimes they are not. Sometimes a hybrid between polling and interrupts is the way to go. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 16:35:22 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:35:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: <20090220153107.GH7313-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090219205047.GE7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090220153107.GH7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: | From: Lennart Sorensen | On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 06:24:52PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | > Threads are a very general purpose mechanism and are implemented quite | > expensively compared with a reasonable "get next event" loop. | | Threads are not expensive in linux. I wouldn't be surprised if the | overhead of managing bitstrings in select costs more than threads. Process switching is expensive in Linux. Why would you say otherwise? Not the fault of Linux, it is the nature of modern hardware. The semantics of "process" could be pared down to allow a cheaper implementation but we'd not like that semantics (eg. no process isolation). I suggested epoll so that bitstrings did not have to be copied in and out of kernel space at each "get next event". So the comparision is not relevant. (I admit that I've never used epoll.) Let's assume that we were using select. How many file descriptors do you think we would be considering? How many threads? Should they be the same order of magnitude? How many threads can a Linux kernel handle well? I have no idea, so this isn't rhetorical. How about 1000 of each? Then each socket call needs to copy in and copy out 125 contiguous bytes. Yuck. But I bet that is a lot less than context switching (between user processes (same as between user threads)). How much process context is in registers? 8 * 8B plain registers (roughly) 8 * 8B FP registers (guess) unknown MMU context, some of which causes caching hickups. TSC stuff? I don't know what else. Remember, under load, the select version should handle multiple transactions per select. Not true of the analogous thread version. | Because I like software that tries to scale, and single threaded processes | using select on a huge number of sockets doesn't scale. I also think | the select interface is awful. Locks in userland code (or their lack!) seem to be a great source of problems too. The existence of thousands of sockets might be a sign of a bad design too. Perhaps the demultiplexing is being done in the wrong place. It depends on what is being attempted. | On a multi core system (as most are) you wouldn't even have to context | switch (which is very cheap on linux too) How so? Are you saying that you have thousands of cores? | > If some (but not all) transactions are expensive to process, they can | > then be farmed off to other threads or processes. | | Which just means you are writing a scheduler to some extent, which is | something the kernel already has, and its scheduler is often better than | one thrown together without much thought into the design. If you are handling thousands of transaction streams, you had better think about scheduling. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 17:04:47 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:04:47 -0500 Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: References: <20090219205047.GE7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090220153107.GH7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090220120447.6a6ddd5d.tleslie@tcn.net> I currently work on some chat servers, and other client server apps with threads and sockets, i always spawn threads, in fact, pre-spawn then, to avoid gang up when a network event has 1000's of socket attempts in seconds (there is some set up on each thread, so nice to get that out of the way on initial app start up, i.e. like i believe apache does). I current have a chat app. on a 1GHz pent. 4 server, with 3000 threads spawned, for 1500 socket connects, i spawn two threads for each connect, one for consuming, the other for producing. I have 5000 cs's per second, and i notice on a old system like that, things start to get harry at 60000. it is also a single cpu i find for my design, cs's is cheap, i have run a server with more then 1024 threads, and thus had to ulimit it up, i would guess i can manage over 10000 chat clients from that old server, and probably 50K-60K from a quad core 3Ghz modern box. i think as long as the L1/L2/L3 cache are humming along, cs's isn't all that bad. for sys% on the 3000 threads on the old cpu, its running sys% at about 1/10 %, and typically user% is <1% and idle > 99.X i totally gotta agree with Len, and i find the thread approach a clean code set up myself. this is written in mono, so i would guess its using pthreads underneath, not sure. but years ago in a C implementation, i did the same design but with pthreads. locks and sems are fun!!! :) well for other jobs, personally , i really need to know them well, but yeah there are some rare times they are the reason for a late night debug session :( -tl On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:35:22 -0500 (EST) "D. Hugh Redelmeier" wrote: > | From: Lennart Sorensen > > | On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 06:24:52PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | > Threads are a very general purpose mechanism and are implemented quite > | > expensively compared with a reasonable "get next event" loop. > | > | Threads are not expensive in linux. I wouldn't be surprised if the > | overhead of managing bitstrings in select costs more than threads. > > Process switching is expensive in Linux. Why would you say otherwise? > Not the fault of Linux, it is the nature of modern hardware. The > semantics of "process" could be pared down to allow a cheaper > implementation but we'd not like that semantics (eg. no process > isolation). > > I suggested epoll so that bitstrings did not have to be copied in and > out of kernel space at each "get next event". So the comparision is > not relevant. (I admit that I've never used epoll.) > > Let's assume that we were using select. How many file descriptors do > you think we would be considering? How many threads? Should they be > the same order of magnitude? > > How many threads can a Linux kernel handle well? I have no idea, so > this isn't rhetorical. > > How about 1000 of each? Then each socket call needs to copy in and > copy out 125 contiguous bytes. Yuck. But I bet that is a lot less > than context switching (between user processes (same as between user > threads)). How much process context is in registers? > 8 * 8B plain registers (roughly) > 8 * 8B FP registers (guess) > unknown MMU context, some of which causes caching hickups. > TSC stuff? > I don't know what else. > > Remember, under load, the select version should handle multiple > transactions per select. Not true of the analogous thread version. > > | Because I like software that tries to scale, and single threaded processes > | using select on a huge number of sockets doesn't scale. I also think > | the select interface is awful. > > Locks in userland code (or their lack!) seem to be a great source of > problems too. > > The existence of thousands of sockets might be a sign of a bad design > too. Perhaps the demultiplexing is being done in the wrong place. It > depends on what is being attempted. > > | On a multi core system (as most are) you wouldn't even have to context > | switch (which is very cheap on linux too) > > How so? Are you saying that you have thousands of cores? > > | > If some (but not all) transactions are expensive to process, they can > | > then be farmed off to other threads or processes. > | > | Which just means you are writing a scheduler to some extent, which is > | something the kernel already has, and its scheduler is often better than > | one thrown together without much thought into the design. > > If you are handling thousands of transaction streams, you had better > think about scheduling. > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 17:13:43 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:13:43 -0500 Subject: Efficent handling of sockets In-Reply-To: References: <20090219205047.GE7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090220153107.GH7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090220171343.GI7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 11:35:22AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > Process switching is expensive in Linux. Why would you say otherwise? > Not the fault of Linux, it is the nature of modern hardware. The > semantics of "process" could be pared down to allow a cheaper > implementation but we'd not like that semantics (eg. no process > isolation). > > I suggested epoll so that bitstrings did not have to be copied in and > out of kernel space at each "get next event". So the comparision is > not relevant. (I admit that I've never used epoll.) > > Let's assume that we were using select. How many file descriptors do > you think we would be considering? How many threads? Should they be > the same order of magnitude? I like one thread per socket myself. Simple and clean. > How many threads can a Linux kernel handle well? I have no idea, so > this isn't rhetorical. Quite a lot these days. > How about 1000 of each? Then each socket call needs to copy in and > copy out 125 contiguous bytes. Yuck. But I bet that is a lot less > than context switching (between user processes (same as between user > threads)). How much process context is in registers? > 8 * 8B plain registers (roughly) > 8 * 8B FP registers (guess) Yeah those. On CPU instruction does that. How many instructions does it take to copy 125 bytes from user space to kernel space? The registers happen all in kernel space. Thread switches are much less expensive than process switches. They haven't always been, but for the last number of years they have been. (On Linux at least. Many other OSs have much higher context switch costs) > unknown MMU context, some of which causes caching hickups. No MMU changes when switching threads. And if you are swithching to another process, then it isn't related to the problem and there is nothing you can do about it. > TSC stuff? No that's CPU, not process specific. > I don't know what else. > > Remember, under load, the select version should handle multiple > transactions per select. Not true of the analogous thread version. But it only handles one at a time, even if it doesn't have to call select again. > Locks in userland code (or their lack!) seem to be a great source of > problems too. If the different sockets have to share resources, then locks can be a problem, but serializing the whole job isn't going to make it faster. > The existence of thousands of sockets might be a sign of a bad design > too. Perhaps the demultiplexing is being done in the wrong place. It > depends on what is being attempted. Certainly something that should be considered too. > How so? Are you saying that you have thousands of cores? No, but I also didn't think all 1000 established sockets were likely to deliver data at the same time. Certainly 4 cores is common, 8 and even 16 cores is becoming quite common, and sun has systems with 64 cores per chip. > If you are handling thousands of transaction streams, you had better > think about scheduling. Sure, but it may be that the kernel scheduler still works better. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 18:46:53 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:46:53 -0500 Subject: freenx question Message-ID: <20090220184653.GA20056@watson-wilson.ca> In an attempt to over come ISP based throttling I've been looking at Freenx. Having read the docs I'm still unclear as to how the client authenticates. Why is an 'nx' user needed on the server? Does it work like this? nxlcient --ssh as my acct-> sshserver --ssh as 'nx'-> localhost That seems very odd. Can anyone here explain how Freenx works? Sincerely, -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 19:06:29 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:06:29 -0700 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook Message-ID: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> Hi, I'm considering buying one of the new one-piece Macbooks. I apologize in advance; I know nothing about these or their OS. I'm looking for answers from people who've had experience in doing what I am considering doing and can shed some light on there experience. Can you comment on: - general compatibility of X-based apps and the leading X server. Would I be able to compile and run, eg. gvim, without an X-server? Would running gvim be slow because I have to run and X server just to use it? - fink; its compatibility and package support. Is it a sufficient analogue of APT? In particular, for example can I use fink to install boost/boost-dev, gvim, and/or GLPK? Does it work like apt and resolves dependencies & downloads binaries (no compilation required)? Is installing free / open-source stuff as easy and painless as it is on say Debian and Ubuntu? - suppose I download the source of a random non-X open source project intended to compile+run on a Linux machine. How likely is it that it will build on MacOS X? Will pretty much any piece of source code that has Linux system calls fail to compile in MacOS X? I assume the worst but maybe you can be the bringer of good news! - do the mac books come (only) with Intel chips now? Are they 64-bit processors? - in the worst case if MacOS X will slow me down then maybe I'll dual-boot the thing. Do you know of anybody who has a Mac/Linux dual-boot? Have you done it? In general, is this hard to setup or cumbersome to maintain? - As a Linux user is there any reason you would recommend against buying a Macbook (other than the "proprietary is evil" argument)? Marc -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -- Steven Wright -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 19:33:25 2009 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:33:25 -0500 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: <499EFF35.9000903-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: Hey Marc, I'm a Mac super-freak, so I could probably take a stab at your questions. > > - general compatibility of X-based apps and the leading X server. > Would I be able to compile and run, eg. gvim, without an X-server? > Would running gvim be slow because I have to run and X server just > to use it? I'm not familiar with gvim, but there are GUI vim apps for OS X. Here's an example: http://code.google.com/p/macvim/ > - fink; its compatibility and package support. Is it a sufficient > analogue of APT? In particular, for example can I use fink to > install boost/boost-dev, gvim, and/or GLPK? Does it work like apt > and resolves dependencies & downloads binaries (no compilation > required)? Is installing free / open-source stuff as easy and > painless as it is on say Debian and Ubuntu? There is fink for OS X, but the community prefers Darwin Ports for running *NIX applications on OS X. http://darwinports.com/ > > - suppose I download the source of a random non-X open source > project intended to compile+run on a Linux machine. How likely is it > that it will build on MacOS X? Will pretty much any piece of source > code that has Linux system calls fail to compile in MacOS X? I > assume the worst but maybe you can be the bringer of good news! In some cases, yes, in others no. It depends on the program's dependencies: simple C-based applications that only rely on standard libraries have no trouble; in other cases where they rely on specific dev libs to compile you'd have to do more work. Overall though, the environment is nearly identical to Linux; you'll be comfortable and productive on the command line right away. > - do the mac books come (only) with Intel chips now? Are they 64-bit > processors? Every current Mac uses Intel's Core 2 Duo processor, so it's all Intel, all 64-bit. Well, except for the high-end Mac Pros; they use 8- core chips, but that's a different story. > - in the worst case if MacOS X will slow me down then maybe I'll > dual-boot the thing. Do you know of anybody who has a Mac/Linux dual- > boot? Have you done it? In general, is this hard to setup or > cumbersome to maintain? You can use Apple's Boot Camp to boot Linux or Windows. VMWare is what I use, however, and it works very well. http://wiki.onmac.net/index.php/Triple_Boot_via_BootCamp http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion/ > > - As a Linux user is there any reason you would recommend against > buying a Macbook (other than the "proprietary is evil" argument)? To my mind it's the perfect platform. It's the only hardware that will (legitimately) let you run Mac OS X, while also letting you run Linux and Windows easily and quickly. I love Linux, so I'm not going to say anything negative about it. In my own practice I consider it an excellent choice for commodity hardware and server tasks. For my own productivity on the desktop, you can't beat the MacBook Pro. :-) Cheers, Aaron. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 22:37:03 2009 From: kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kyle O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:37:03 -0500 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <2274b9c30902201437r7e3daa96tb03f85979c9b93f3@mail.gmail.com> I just picked up my macbook on the weekend and I was going to run Linux instead of OSX, but I figured I would give OSX a try for a while. I've been running a UNIX based (Linux/Free/OpenBSD) desktop as my primary machine for over a decade and I was reluctant at first, but after only 3 days I am ... wouldn't say converted, but very impressed. I find myself using X11 less and less and native osx apps more. There seem to be a number of equivalent tools available natively. Don't forget about macports, which brings bsd style ports to osx (if you are not familiar, ports ==apt-get||yum) On 2/20/09, Aaron Vegh wrote: > Hey Marc, > I'm a Mac super-freak, so I could probably take a stab at your > questions. >> >> - general compatibility of X-based apps and the leading X server. >> Would I be able to compile and run, eg. gvim, without an X-server? >> Would running gvim be slow because I have to run and X server just >> to use it? > > I'm not familiar with gvim, but there are GUI vim apps for OS X. > Here's an example: http://code.google.com/p/macvim/ > >> - fink; its compatibility and package support. Is it a sufficient >> analogue of APT? In particular, for example can I use fink to >> install boost/boost-dev, gvim, and/or GLPK? Does it work like apt >> and resolves dependencies & downloads binaries (no compilation >> required)? Is installing free / open-source stuff as easy and >> painless as it is on say Debian and Ubuntu? > > There is fink for OS X, but the community prefers Darwin Ports for > running *NIX applications on OS X. http://darwinports.com/ >> >> - suppose I download the source of a random non-X open source >> project intended to compile+run on a Linux machine. How likely is it >> that it will build on MacOS X? Will pretty much any piece of source >> code that has Linux system calls fail to compile in MacOS X? I >> assume the worst but maybe you can be the bringer of good news! > > In some cases, yes, in others no. It depends on the program's > dependencies: simple C-based applications that only rely on standard > libraries have no trouble; in other cases where they rely on specific > dev libs to compile you'd have to do more work. Overall though, the > environment is nearly identical to Linux; you'll be comfortable and > productive on the command line right away. > >> - do the mac books come (only) with Intel chips now? Are they 64-bit >> processors? > > Every current Mac uses Intel's Core 2 Duo processor, so it's all > Intel, all 64-bit. Well, except for the high-end Mac Pros; they use 8- > core chips, but that's a different story. > >> - in the worst case if MacOS X will slow me down then maybe I'll >> dual-boot the thing. Do you know of anybody who has a Mac/Linux dual- >> boot? Have you done it? In general, is this hard to setup or >> cumbersome to maintain? > > You can use Apple's Boot Camp to boot Linux or Windows. VMWare is what > I use, however, and it works very well. > > http://wiki.onmac.net/index.php/Triple_Boot_via_BootCamp > http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion/ > >> >> - As a Linux user is there any reason you would recommend against >> buying a Macbook (other than the "proprietary is evil" argument)? > > To my mind it's the perfect platform. It's the only hardware that will > (legitimately) let you run Mac OS X, while also letting you run Linux > and Windows easily and quickly. > > I love Linux, so I'm not going to say anything negative about it. In > my own practice I consider it an excellent choice for commodity > hardware and server tasks. For my own productivity on the desktop, you > can't beat the MacBook Pro. :-) > > Cheers, > Aaron. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 22:41:18 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:41:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Aaron Vegh wrote: > I'm not familiar with gvim, but there are GUI vim apps for OS > X. Here's an example: http://code.google.com/p/macvim/ There are also vim-app port from macports. > There is fink for OS X, but the community prefers Darwin Ports > for running *NIX applications on OS X. http://darwinports.com/ I think it is officially moved to http://www.macports.org/ ; and the download from MacPorts does not ask for personal information, so I definitely suggest that. MacPorts is a portage system: on installation it will always compile things in your machine, no prepackage binary around. However, if you want, MacPorts system can produce rpm binary, which then you can install in other OS X system without compiling (e.g. when security dictate a system without compiler). Fink should have some prepackage binaries, but in my experience most things I want to install does not have binary available, so fink will compile it in the machine. > Overall though, the environment is nearly identical to Linux; > you'll be comfortable and productive on the command line right > away. There are some differences originally since OS X is a BSD system (on Mach kernel). However if it bother you, there are several sysutils packages / ports (such as coreutils, findutils, diffutils) which will make sure your tools work are as what you expected in Linux. You can even install common linux desktop manager, such as Gnome, KDE, or XFCE. Haven't tried that, though. > VMWare is what I use, however, and it works very well. That's what I use as well. I tried QEMU but VMWare definitely much more usable. > To my mind it's the perfect platform. It's the only hardware > that will (legitimately) let you run Mac OS X, while also > letting you run Linux and Windows easily and quickly. My thought as well. As hardware I think it is generally a nice one in perfomance, reliability, and durability. At least comparable to non-Mac on the same price point. Just a note: make sure you have more than 1GB memory, make a quite a difference. :-) -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 23:03:28 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:03:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? Message-ID: Hi! I am looking for a solution for document templating / report generation. There is a discussion similar to this earlier on the thread "Advice for a document management system" some time ago, but the requirement I have is a bit different, so I start a new thread. Basically I need several documents whose content mostly derived from a single database (do those documents shared a lot of content with each other) but which information in each document can be different. The layout of the documents varies greatly, including how the database information laid out in each document. This is basically more like reports from database application (such as MS Access), only that the layout setting can be quite complex (font sizes, table, floating frame, etc.). When the information in the database changed, the document must be regenerated. The document layouts (templates) are changes all the time as well, which mean the documents must also be regenerated. Additionally, for each document layout (template), more than one documents may be generated for different query. The resulting documents have to be in PDF, HTML, and editabel MS Word (tables etc should be there). Additionally it will be nice to have OpenOffice.org file as well. Text files are needed also, but I guess it will be trivial. What I think right now is using OpenOffice.org. Unfortunately the report feature in OpenOffice.org Base is very limited (no way to have free form report - it has to be in table). Using mailmerge can have any form, but no way to make a loop in a Writer document. I am thinking to use scripting to manually added "loop" feature to a mailmerge document. Obviously many in this forum familiar with latex. Can latex do the job? Specifically, can latex embed feature to do database query and report generation, or this have to be done externally (an external script that modify latex document)? How good are latex exports to MS Word? Thanks! -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 20 23:25:30 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:25:30 -0500 Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2009-02-20, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > Obviously many in this forum familiar with latex. Can latex do > the job? Specifically, can latex embed feature to do database > query and report generation, or this have to be done externally > (an external script that modify latex document)? How good are > latex exports to MS Word? LaTeX isn't a terribly suitable solution, given your expectation of generating PDF, HTML, and RTF/Word; it is intended to provide attractive, typeset-quality output, so that really the only one of those formats that it would be convenient to generate would be PDF. As a second factor, LaTeX isn't particularly amenable to the sort of programming model that you seem to be contemplating. Now, while it's "Turing complete," and thus, in *principle*, capable, along with the hooks people have added to it, over the years, of doing just about anything, what it *conveniently* supports are not "procedural" sorts of things (e.g. - opening files, databases, and such), but rather operations surrounding how to format particular bits of your document. If you *did* want to use LaTeX, I'd recommend writing code in some other language to *generate* LaTeX. I'd tend to think that a more suitable data format to start from might be DocBook. http://www.docbook.org/ This is based on SGML/XML, and is intended to support remapping documents written in DocBook to various other formats that tend to include PDF, HTML, RTF, and such. Again, it's not amenable, by itself, to programming things like mail merge or database access - you'd presumably want to write code in some other language that generates DocBook XML/SGML as output. What language you'd use for your programming would be up to you - one could use anything that seems "comfortable," whether that be Perl, Python, Java, or, for that matter, C, Eiffel, or Ada. Separation of concerns does seem like a good idea. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 01:58:38 2009 From: meng-R6A+fiHC8nRWk0Htik3J/w at public.gmane.org (Meng Cheah) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:58:38 -0500 Subject: Please help with public keys In-Reply-To: <499DABA7.8040100-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <499D89CF.50501@teksavvy.com> <499DABA7.8040100@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <499F5FCE.9070602@teksavvy.com> Jamon Camisso wrote: > Meng Cheah wrote: >> Hi >> >> Sorry about the long "cut-and-paste". >> I "googled" around but have no answers. >> I installed lenny and am trying out lxde. >> I've both debian-keyring and debian-archive-keyring. >> >> Can anyone please help or point me in the right direction? :-) >> Thanks in advance. > > What's the specific problem? Try #debian on irc.freenode.net, I've > seen a few people asking there about keys and lenny. > > Jamon I'd rather not see the messages re the keys. Before modifying /etc/apt/sources.list, there were no messages when I ran apt-get update. Thanks for replying, I'll do some more poking around :-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 02:04:42 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:04:42 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: <20090219155239.GD7313-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090219155239.GD7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1235181882.1688.20.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 10:52 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 06:08:42PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > > A topic that has been drawing a LOT of attention on the MythTV-users > > mailing list is the topic of VDPAU (Video Decode and Presentation API > > for Unix) a feature found in some NVidia GeForce 8 series and later > > video cards. A VDPAU supporting card will let you off load a lot of > > the video decoding work normally done by the CPU to the video card. > > Cards that support this can be found for under $60 (Canadian). These > > cards will let you use a fairly modest (read low power consumption) > > CPU chip. How modest you could go is a subject of debate, but let's > > just say that you will not need the latest fire breathing AMD/Intel > > CPU to support video tasks. > > > > The gotchas include, only the testing version 0.22 of MythTV supports > > VDPAU (the current stable version of MythTV 0.21 doesn't support > > VDPAU). You have to tread cafefully regarding VDPAU support, there > > seems to be no rhyme or reason as to what cards in the GeForce 8 > > series support what... > > There is very obvious reason for which geforce 8 series have it. If the > card uses a G80 GPU, it does not have it. If it uses a newer one (G84, > G86 or G92) then it has it. > > The G80 is used in the 8800GTX, 8800 Ultra, and the 8800 GTS 320 and > 640MB versions. The 8800GS, GT and GTS512MB are all G92, and all other > 8xxx cards are G84 or G86 and hence all have the required PureVideo2 HD. > ha! my asus en8400gs happens to work fairly well, according to: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/VDPAU#Supported_Cards this is a big help, thanks much colin, and sorry to be so long responding. matt > I will have to try this out on my 8600GT with mythtv. > -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 02:16:35 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:16:35 -0500 Subject: "green" drives and hdparm In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 17:52 -0500, Michael Lauzon wrote: > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 17:43, Matt Price wrote: > > Most of the HDD manufactures -- Western Digital, etc -- are making > "green" drives along with their regular ones. anyone know much about this? I will use old drives for the os(es) but hopefully a huge new drive for video. i'd really like to have it parked//off when it's not in use -- that is, if nothing's recording or playing. i remember there's been controversy about setting hd powersaving parameters, especially in ubuntu, where i\iirc there were lots of dead drives as a result of a bad policy decision.... thx, matt > -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 02:21:21 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:21:21 -0500 Subject: semi-green computing In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902191221m588c4ecavaf0a79e1be248e54-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <20090219154424.GC7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1f13df280902191221m588c4ecavaf0a79e1be248e54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1235182881.1688.52.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 15:21 -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > 2009/2/19 Lennart Sorensen : > > I am not sure X officially supports running multi session. The problem > > is that all mice and keyboards are by default combined into a single > > source of input. You have to work against that system and split it up > > and run X in raw mode for at least one of the keyboards. > > Interestingly, X does at least support multiple pointers and keyboards: > > http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=mpx > http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/144 > > What these essentially say is that A) someone developed a > "Multi-Pointer X Server" and B) that it's been merged with Xorg. So > the support appears to be there - although whether it's made it to the > distros yet is open to question when the merge was May 2008. > > A short session with google also turned up this page: > > http://www.linuxtoys.org/multiseat/multiseat.html > > It references the tyler blog someone else mentioned, but seems to be > more straight-forward. i've seen that bob smith article before, it is part of the inspiration for me. tyler's recent article (http://blog.chris.tylers.info/index.php?url=archives/184-Multiseat-on-Dual-ATI-and-Dual-NVIDIA.html&serendipity[csuccess]=moderate#feedback) gives some hope that it MIGHT be possible to do a multiseat setup with one card, though i don't think he's desscribing having done it -- he's suggesting you might be able todo it using Xephyr, which isn't exactly what i hoped for but might have to be good enough. m > -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 05:08:57 2009 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 00:08:57 -0500 Subject: Japanese on Linux -1 In-Reply-To: <200902081301.01981.glayng-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg@public.gmane.org> References: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200902210008.57857.mervc@eol.ca> Hi Hank Thought you might be interested in this thread of messages. Maybe you know this stuff, maybe not. On Sunday 08 February 2009, Gary Layng wrote: > I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of > viruses and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow > that is Windows, is asking about Linux. > > What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to allow > for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. > > All the sites I've been able to Google are quite aged, and basically are > intended for high end sysadmins, not the "spell it out for me and don't > skip a step" types like Your Humble Correspondent. What's the state of the > art procedures in setting up a nice modern home (emphasis on "home") PC > with the ability to use Japanese input on its e-mail program? Any leads as > to where to look? > > Preferred distributions would be the more common ones, like Mandriva or > Ubuntu. > > If the website's in Japanese, that's OK. -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.10 KMail 1.9.9 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 05:09:34 2009 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 00:09:34 -0500 Subject: Japanese on Linux - 2 In-Reply-To: <498F2025.6030709-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> <498F2025.6030709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902210009.34952.mervc@eol.ca> On Sunday 08 February 2009, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > I am on CentOS 5.2 (things should be similar on RedHat and probably on > Fedora). > > There, one should do this: > > Go to System->Preferences->Keyboard->Layouts. > > There you can add available languages and set which one is default. A > small icon will show up at the bottom of the screen. By clicking there > one can change between currently used languages. > > zb. > > Gary Layng wrote: > > I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of > > viruses and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow > > that is Windows, is asking about Linux. > > > > What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to > > allow for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. > > > > All the sites I've been able to Google are quite aged, and basically are > > intended for high end sysadmins, not the "spell it out for me and don't > > skip a step" types like Your Humble Correspondent. What's the state of > > the art procedures in setting up a nice modern home (emphasis on "home") > > PC with the ability to use Japanese input on its e-mail program? Any > > leads as to where to look? > > > > Preferred distributions would be the more common ones, like Mandriva or > > Ubuntu. > > > > If the website's in Japanese, that's OK. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.10 KMail 1.9.9 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 05:10:10 2009 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 00:10:10 -0500 Subject: Japanese on Linux - 3 In-Reply-To: <498F84C0.2000601-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200902081301.01981.glayng@sympatico.ca> <498F84C0.2000601@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <200902210010.10698.mervc@eol.ca> On Sunday 08 February 2009, Madison Kelly wrote: > Gary Layng wrote: > > I'm learning the Japanese language. My sensei, having had enough of > > viruses and worms and spyware and miscellaneous other pieces of the Wow > > that is Windows, is asking about Linux. > > > > What I need to know is, how do I set up a nice modern distribution to > > allow for dual language input in e-mail: English and Japanese. > > > > All the sites I've been able to Google are quite aged, and basically are > > intended for high end sysadmins, not the "spell it out for me and don't > > skip a step" types like Your Humble Correspondent. What's the state of > > the art procedures in setting up a nice modern home (emphasis on "home") > > PC with the ability to use Japanese input on its e-mail program? Any > > leads as to where to look? > > > > Preferred distributions would be the more common ones, like Mandriva or > > Ubuntu. > > > > If the website's in Japanese, that's OK. > > Hi, > > I'm also learning (couple years now) and have no trouble using > kana/kanji input on Ubuntu. Simply install the following (from my notes): > > sudo apt-get install thunderbird-locale-ja ttf-kochi-mincho-naga10 > ttf-kochi-gothic-naga10 ttf-sazanami-gothic ttf-sazanami-mincho unifont > uim-anthy uim-applet-gnome language-pack-gnome-ja language-pack-ja > language-pack-kde-ja language-support-ja > > Some of those you may or may not want, they're just all I installed. > The main ones are 'uim-anthy uim-applet-gnome'. Once they're installed, > restart Gnome and add the applet to your panel by right-click -> Add to > Panel -> Input Method Indicator. You may or may not need to restart again. > > At this point, you will see the tool on your panel. It's default > method is plain ascii input. You can set defaults, change hot keys and > so forth easily. You can also choose to set it to change input for a > single window or the entire desktop. When anthy is active, you switch > between romanji and kana/kanji input by pressing 'shift + space'. It can > also be set to support half-width kana, default between > hiragana/katakana and so on. I've found the library to choose kanji is > extremely intelligent and accurate, too. It has no trouble choosing the > right kanji using various variations caused by verb conjugation, short > forms and so on. > > If you or your teacher need any help, I'm more than happy to help. > > ??????? > > Madi > > PS - Where are you studying? > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.10 KMail 1.9.9 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 05:32:46 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 00:32:46 -0500 Subject: xine sound crippled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499F91FE.1020508@gmail.com> Some here are good in these multimedia things. I am not. I like watching movies from Google Movies. I intercept them and save from web browser cache and then try to use xine to play. Movies are displayed properly when viewed in web browser window (flash), with sound played properly also. However, some movies, while video plays properly, have problem with sound, when I try to play later a copy from a stored file. This is definitely a problem of xine and/or audio codecs. Why I know this? Because I installed a newest version of xine and after that some movies that played sound properly with older version had problem to play properly sound with newer version. While some movies that could not play the sound properly with older version, now do not play well with newer version. The sound does exist but it is so crippled that it is very hard to understand it. All this is very frustrating. How to approach the problem? zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 22:44:20 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:44:20 -0500 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <1235256260.11968.15.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello, Certainly Mac computers are aestheticaly pleasing, very well marketed and their operating system apparently is a very good one. Hoewever, I also think Mac's are very expensive for what you are getting and if you use Linux, I do not see the point in having one. Linux can be very empowering and the perfect way to get all the features of a Mac--or better--at a fraction of the cost. Mac's are too darn expensive (in my opinion). Also, I have spoken with several laptop repair persons who say Mac's are fragile and if they last long--it is because people who shelled out a bundle of cash for them treat them more carefully. My opinion is that you get the sturdiest machine for your money--like a business class laptop from any manufacturer--Lenovo, Sony, HP, Toshiba, Dell, whatever. They are usually less expensive than a Mac, have just as much power if not more so--and with a Linux OS, you will have the best of all worlds. I have an IBM thinkpad from 1996 that still works. That thing is a brick. The big problem with *some* PC manufacturers are the spurious claim that you have to pay the Windows tax and use nothing but Windows if you want a warranty. That claim can (and is) being fought. I got word from an HP rep that warranty can be backed if you use Linux and you don't have to pay a Windows tax--but I will believe it once the sales people tell me so as well. My opinion is find the best value for your money--do not pay for the MAC machine OS/X if you can avoid it. Use the extra money on something else. That's my 2 cents. -Ib- On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 17:41 -0500, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Aaron Vegh wrote: > > I'm not familiar with gvim, but there are GUI vim apps for OS > > X. Here's an example: http://code.google.com/p/macvim/ > > There are also vim-app port from macports. > > > There is fink for OS X, but the community prefers Darwin Ports > > for running *NIX applications on OS X. http://darwinports.com/ > > I think it is officially moved to http://www.macports.org/ ; and > the download from MacPorts does not ask for personal > information, so I definitely suggest that. > > MacPorts is a portage system: on installation it will always > compile things in your machine, no prepackage binary around. > However, if you want, MacPorts system can produce rpm binary, > which then you can install in other OS X system without > compiling (e.g. when security dictate a system without > compiler). > > Fink should have some prepackage binaries, but in my experience > most things I want to install does not have binary available, so > fink will compile it in the machine. > > > Overall though, the environment is nearly identical to Linux; > > you'll be comfortable and productive on the command line right > > away. > > There are some differences originally since OS X is a BSD system > (on Mach kernel). However if it bother you, there are several > sysutils packages / ports (such as coreutils, findutils, > diffutils) which will make sure your tools work are as what you > expected in Linux. > > You can even install common linux desktop manager, such as > Gnome, KDE, or XFCE. Haven't tried that, though. > > > VMWare is what I use, however, and it works very well. > > That's what I use as well. I tried QEMU but VMWare definitely > much more usable. > > > To my mind it's the perfect platform. It's the only hardware > > that will (legitimately) let you run Mac OS X, while also > > letting you run Linux and Windows easily and quickly. > > My thought as well. As hardware I think it is generally a nice > one in perfomance, reliability, and durability. At least > comparable to non-Mac on the same price point. > > Just a note: make sure you have more than 1GB memory, make a > quite a difference. :-) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 17:57:50 2009 From: aaronvegh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Aaron Vegh) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:57:50 -0500 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: <1235256260.11968.15.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> <1235256260.11968.15.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <61689578-5CF7-4C6D-B0EF-964DBB28C97B@gmail.com> Hi there, > Hoewever, I also think Mac's are very expensive for what you are > getting and if you use Linux, I do not see the point in having one. > Linux can be very empowering and the perfect way to get all the > features of a Mac--or better--at a fraction of the cost. Mac's are > too darn expensive (in my opinion). Also, I have spoken with several > laptop repair persons who say Mac's are fragile and if they last > long--it is because people who shelled out a bundle of cash for them > treat them more carefully. My opinion is that you get the sturdiest > machine for your money--like a business class laptop from any > manufacturer--Lenovo, Sony, HP, Toshiba, Dell, whatever. They are > usually less expensive than a Mac, have just as much power if not > more so--and with a Linux OS, you will have the best of all worlds. It appears your opinion is based on purely circumstantial evidence: you are using the opinions of others, and your own impressions to support your beliefs. Here's an example of circumstantial evidence being used to support an opposite position: New Mac users, whether they come from Windows or Linux, find themselves impressed by the operating system. Linux users in particular really enjoy not having to worry about drivers and compatibility: things just work. These people value their time as they do money: time spent getting all the features of a Mac to actually work, and who prefer to actually do the work they've purchased their computer for. That last paragraph is brought to you by the (perhaps) dozens of people who have commented in this way to me. Still, it's circumstantial, until you *try it yourself*. You haven't done that. I'm not saying you should, either. But perhaps you should, before commenting on this thread. > My opinion is find the best value for your money--do not pay for the > MAC machine OS/X if you can avoid it. Use the extra money on > something else. It's Mac, not MAC. This isn't the Macintosh Acronym Club. I won't even go near how you conflate OS X with OS/2! :-D > That's my 2 cents. Gomen nasai, that's about what it's worth. Aaron. P.S. This is not an attack on Linux! I've said it before, and it bears repeating: Linux is awesome. But if someone wishes to use the Mac, then it's worth mentioning that the platform has its advantages. Every platform does; your choice as a consumer is to decide which platform will give you the biggest win. > > On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 17:41 -0500, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: >> >> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Aaron Vegh wrote: >> > I'm not familiar with gvim, but there are GUI vim apps for OS >> > X. Here's an example: http://code.google.com/p/macvim/ >> >> There are also vim-app port from macports. >> >> > There is fink for OS X, but the community prefers Darwin Ports >> > for running *NIX applications on OS X. http://darwinports.com/ >> >> I think it is officially moved to http://www.macports.org/ ; and >> the download from MacPorts does not ask for personal >> information, so I definitely suggest that. >> >> MacPorts is a portage system: on installation it will always >> compile things in your machine, no prepackage binary around. >> However, if you want, MacPorts system can produce rpm binary, >> which then you can install in other OS X system without >> compiling (e.g. when security dictate a system without >> compiler). >> >> Fink should have some prepackage binaries, but in my experience >> most things I want to install does not have binary available, so >> fink will compile it in the machine. >> >> > Overall though, the environment is nearly identical to Linux; >> > you'll be comfortable and productive on the command line right >> > away. >> >> There are some differences originally since OS X is a BSD system >> (on Mach kernel). However if it bother you, there are several >> sysutils packages / ports (such as coreutils, findutils, >> diffutils) which will make sure your tools work are as what you >> expected in Linux. >> >> You can even install common linux desktop manager, such as >> Gnome, KDE, or XFCE. Haven't tried that, though. >> >> > VMWare is what I use, however, and it works very well. >> >> That's what I use as well. I tried QEMU but VMWare definitely >> much more usable. >> >> > To my mind it's the perfect platform. It's the only hardware >> > that will (legitimately) let you run Mac OS X, while also >> > letting you run Linux and Windows easily and quickly. >> >> My thought as well. As hardware I think it is generally a nice >> one in perfomance, reliability, and durability. At least >> comparable to non-Mac on the same price point. >> >> Just a note: make sure you have more than 1GB memory, make a >> quite a difference. :-) >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 23:40:31 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 18:40:31 -0500 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: <61689578-5CF7-4C6D-B0EF-964DBB28C97B-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> <1235256260.11968.15.camel@khider.homenetwork> <61689578-5CF7-4C6D-B0EF-964DBB28C97B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1235259631.11968.38.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello Aaron, Certainly, I agree with you if you want to buy a machine that 'just works' without having to worry about 'how', then yes--buy a Mac. That said, Linux users tend to be better informed and willing to go through the trouble of getting a machine configured for his/her needs. If you read my e-mail you will see I have practical concerns when buying a machine. 1) Cost. Mac's are expensive compared to PC's. 2) Durability. Mac's are not the most durable machines. Are Mac's bad machines? Absolutely not--they are the standard for professional media developers for a reason. That said, I believe a PC with Linux installed and a knowledgeable user can come up with something just as good at 1) less cost 2) more durability--hence more value. I get into this argument a lot with people who swear by Mac and it creates this mentality that using said machine is the only way to get into media development. It pleases me to no end when I hear Linux is used by professional media developers as well who got the same or better performance than a Mac. Unfortunately, they are rare at this time. I hope that changes and people anywhere in the world who cannot afford a Mac, embrace Linux as a low cost alternative. Perhaps you will say I am a dreamer...but I'm not the only one. Vivat Linux! -Ib- On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 12:57 -0500, Aaron Vegh wrote: > Hi there, > > > > > Hoewever, I also think Mac's are very expensive for what you are > > getting and if you use Linux, I do not see the point in having one. > > Linux can be very empowering and the perfect way to get all the > > features of a Mac--or better--at a fraction of the cost. Mac's are > > too darn expensive (in my opinion). Also, I have spoken with several > > laptop repair persons who say Mac's are fragile and if they last > > long--it is because people who shelled out a bundle of cash for them > > treat them more carefully. My opinion is that you get the sturdiest > > machine for your money--like a business class laptop from any > > manufacturer--Lenovo, Sony, HP, Toshiba, Dell, whatever. They are > > usually less expensive than a Mac, have just as much power if not > > more so--and with a Linux OS, you will have the best of all worlds. > > > It appears your opinion is based on purely circumstantial evidence: > you are using the opinions of others, and your own impressions to > support your beliefs. Here's an example of circumstantial evidence > being used to support an opposite position: > > > New Mac users, whether they come from Windows or Linux, find > themselves impressed by the operating system. Linux users in > particular really enjoy not having to worry about drivers and > compatibility: things just work. These people value their time as they > do money: time spent getting all the features of a Mac to actually > work, and who prefer to actually do the work they've purchased their > computer for. > > > That last paragraph is brought to you by the (perhaps) dozens of > people who have commented in this way to me. Still, it's > circumstantial, until you *try it yourself*. You haven't done that. > > > I'm not saying you should, either. But perhaps you should, before > commenting on this thread. > > > > My opinion is find the best value for your money--do not pay for the > > MAC machine OS/X if you can avoid it. Use the extra money on > > something else. > > > It's Mac, not MAC. This isn't the Macintosh Acronym Club. I won't even > go near how you conflate OS X with OS/2! :-D > > > > That's my 2 cents. > > > Gomen nasai, that's about what it's worth. > > > Aaron. > > > P.S. This is not an attack on Linux! I've said it before, and it bears > repeating: Linux is awesome. But if someone wishes to use the Mac, > then it's worth mentioning that the platform has its advantages. Every > platform does; your choice as a consumer is to decide which platform > will give you the biggest win. > > > > > > On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 17:41 -0500, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Aaron Vegh wrote: > > > > I'm not familiar with gvim, but there are GUI vim apps for OS > > > > X. Here's an example: http://code.google.com/p/macvim/ > > > > > > There are also vim-app port from macports. > > > > > > > There is fink for OS X, but the community prefers Darwin Ports > > > > for running *NIX applications on OS X. http://darwinports.com/ > > > > > > I think it is officially moved to http://www.macports.org/ ; and > > > the download from MacPorts does not ask for personal > > > information, so I definitely suggest that. > > > > > > MacPorts is a portage system: on installation it will always > > > compile things in your machine, no prepackage binary around. > > > However, if you want, MacPorts system can produce rpm binary, > > > which then you can install in other OS X system without > > > compiling (e.g. when security dictate a system without > > > compiler). > > > > > > Fink should have some prepackage binaries, but in my experience > > > most things I want to install does not have binary available, so > > > fink will compile it in the machine. > > > > > > > Overall though, the environment is nearly identical to Linux; > > > > you'll be comfortable and productive on the command line right > > > > away. > > > > > > There are some differences originally since OS X is a BSD system > > > (on Mach kernel). However if it bother you, there are several > > > sysutils packages / ports (such as coreutils, findutils, > > > diffutils) which will make sure your tools work are as what you > > > expected in Linux. > > > > > > You can even install common linux desktop manager, such as > > > Gnome, KDE, or XFCE. Haven't tried that, though. > > > > > > > VMWare is what I use, however, and it works very well. > > > > > > That's what I use as well. I tried QEMU but VMWare definitely > > > much more usable. > > > > > > > To my mind it's the perfect platform. It's the only hardware > > > > that will (legitimately) let you run Mac OS X, while also > > > > letting you run Linux and Windows easily and quickly. > > > > > > My thought as well. As hardware I think it is generally a nice > > > one in perfomance, reliability, and durability. At least > > > comparable to non-Mac on the same price point. > > > > > > Just a note: make sure you have more than 1GB memory, make a > > > quite a difference. :-) > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 19:23:03 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:23:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: <1235259631.11968.38.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> <1235256260.11968.15.camel@khider.homenetwork> <61689578-5CF7-4C6D-B0EF-964DBB28C97B@gmail.com> <1235259631.11968.38.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, I. Khider wrote: > 1) Cost. Mac's are expensive compared to PC's. You should compare with comparable non-Mac. In my observation, Mac price is comparable to non-Mac with the same perfomance, reliability, and durability. > 2) Durability. Mac's are not the most durable machines. Compare to what? As I said, in my observation Mac machines is at least as durable to PC to in the same price point. Off course you won't compare a Mac to a rugged computer. > That said, I believe a PC with Linux installed and a > knowledgeable user can come up with something just as good at > 1) less cost 2) more durability--hence more value. Less cost yes, but with less durability. Or more durability, with more cost. I am not talking about the OS at all here, just hardware. I think the point is, Mac is good machine for general purpose (nothing about media development), however, they don't have much choices. Some computer requirements are not provided by Mac. But for many computer requirements which are provided by Mac, Mac is a good deal. -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 19:46:47 2009 From: kyleodonnell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Kyle O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:46:47 -0500 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> <1235256260.11968.15.camel@khider.homenetwork> <61689578-5CF7-4C6D-B0EF-964DBB28C97B@gmail.com> <1235259631.11968.38.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <2274b9c30902211146v1114186dw9249d4e42bcceb64@mail.gmail.com> the cost? I almost bought a Lenovo Thinkpad T400 with almost the exact same specs as the Mac (13.3" macbook vs 14.1" thinkpad). And the Mac was a few dollars cheaper. I picked a Mac because the fit, finish, and the sturdiness. I can also dual boot Linux or run VMWare Fusion/Parallels/VirtualBox. Unfortunately it seems Linux has not caught up with the innovative things manufacturers are doing with notebooks these days: - two graphic chipsets and when the gpu usage exceeds x percentage switch to the more powerful chip set - much of the power management is not up to par either. That being said if I didn't like OSX I would have installed Linux and lived with the pain of waiting for it to catch up as I have for so many years :) The main reason I decided against the Thinkpad was because they are NOT built like they used to be. They are more flimsy now, the flex in the hand rest and keyboard is unbelievable. The Lenovo t60's closer represented the manufacturing practices of IBM, but it now appears Lenovo is not interested in upholding the Thinkpad reputation. the durability? Have you seen the new macbooks? The unibody is built from one solid piece of aluminium (the video on apple.ca is very neat). I cannot speak for any specific details on durability, but it feels more sturdy than any laptop I have owned. My sister has had her plastic macbook for 5 years now and is only buying a new one because she spilled water all over it. They have also made upgrading hard drives and ram / replacing the battery very simple. As someone who has run Linux as his primary workstation for well over a decade and has just recently (1 week) owned a Mac, I say if you are looking to spend more than 1300$ on a laptop go for it! --kyleo On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 2:23 PM, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, I. Khider wrote: > >> 1) Cost. Mac's are expensive compared to PC's. >> > > You should compare with comparable non-Mac. In my observation, Mac price is > comparable to non-Mac with the same perfomance, reliability, and durability. > > 2) Durability. Mac's are not the most durable machines. >> > > Compare to what? As I said, in my observation Mac machines is at least as > durable to PC to in the same price point. Off course you won't compare a Mac > to a rugged computer. > > That said, I believe a PC with Linux installed and a knowledgeable user >> can come up with something just as good at 1) less cost 2) more >> durability--hence more value. >> > > Less cost yes, but with less durability. Or more durability, with more > cost. > > I am not talking about the OS at all here, just hardware. > > I think the point is, Mac is good machine for general purpose (nothing > about media development), however, they don't have much choices. Some > computer requirements are not provided by Mac. But for many computer > requirements which are provided by Mac, Mac is a good deal. > > > -- > (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo > _____ _____ _____ _____ > /____ /____/ /____/ /____ > _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 21:26:05 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:26:05 -0500 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: <2274b9c30902211146v1114186dw9249d4e42bcceb64-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> <1235256260.11968.15.camel@khider.homenetwork> <61689578-5CF7-4C6D-B0EF-964DBB28C97B@gmail.com> <1235259631.11968.38.camel@khider.homenetwork> <2274b9c30902211146v1114186dw9249d4e42bcceb64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A0716D.7030706@ualberta.ca> Thanks for all the feedback. I certainly did not intend to start a "Mac vs. PC" argument. This is a summary response to the last few posts. I forgot to mention in my original email that I'm considering buying the Macbook because sometimes you need things to "just work" or "be officially supported". In my case, when I'm giving a presentation at a conference -- that's not the time to stumble with video card / projector incompatibilities or failing wireless drivers, etc.. Also, it will mostly be used by my girlfriend around the house when my our main desktop is tied up by me working. Ok I'll admit it, maybe I'd also like to play Magic: The Gathering online without running a virtual OS or rebooting. That being said I tend to find Windows bulky and awkard to use in general and outright dreadful for my work. MacOSX is based on BSD Unix (right?) and it seems that over the years there's been a good deal of effort by the community to get good Unix/Linux/MacOSX compatibility. Thinking that I'd like to use the machine for working when I'm out-of-town it would be nice if I didn't have to install a Linux dual-boot with MacOS. In general I don't like running virtual operating systems; I'd rather not do that. I had an Acer laptop's hard drive crash on me recently after only a year after buying the thing.. I'm not clumping it with all "PC laptops" but in general the Macs tend to be lighter. This new one-piece-aluminum Macbook seems as robust and light as ever. Who knows.. if there is a design flaw we'll probably know about it in the next year or so. Also, my impression was that Apple produces better hardware in general for the same price, not the other way around. From what I gather in the responses this seems to be right on the mark. So I'd only be using the Macbook for work once in a while and when I do it would be nice to have a work environment that doesn't slow me down, hence all my original questions. And, I'd rather do it in MacOSX which would save me the trouble and hassle of dual-booting it with Linux. It seems that I'll be able to do this nicely and still get everything I want, but if not I'll dual-boot it with Linux and post my notes about experience. If I have extra time somewhere maybe I'll just do it for the fun of it and to see the face of Mac zealots when I boot the thing up in Ubuntu :) Marc -- A computer without Windows is like chocolate cake without mustard. -- Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 21 23:25:26 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 18:25:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Christopher Browne wrote: > "procedural" sorts of things (e.g. - opening files, databases, > and such), Thanks for the comment! Yes, it is procedural, but a pretty established routine: open / connect to database, query for the first grouping, loop on the first grouping, ... query for the n grouping, loop on the n grouping, query for the details, loop on the details end loop end loop ... end loop close database Basically normal loop for a database report generator. In fact, I probably can use most report generator (including OpenOffice.org Base) to get the *content* I needed. The problems are that I cannot get in the *layout* I needed, and that some other report generators cannot produce output to all format I need (PDF, HTML, editable MS Word). > Again, it's not amenable, by itself, to programming things > like mail merge or database access - you'd presumably want to > write code in some other language that generates DocBook > XML/SGML as output. Ok, docbook will be something different: it is not a layout nor template, but more like structured content. So the procedure will be as below, right? 1. A script queries the database according the rules of the intended layout. 2. The script generate a docbook contain the data. 3. An XSL convert the docbook to intended XML or an intermediate XML according to intended layout. 4. Another converter convert the intermediate XML to final non-XML document. There are several issues with using docbook this way: 1. The "intended layout" / template definition need to be broken into the rules for the docbook generator script and the XSL. This complicates changing the "intended layout" / template. 2. As MS Word .doc files are not XML, the docbook need to be converted to something else first. It seems the good candidate is to ODF (there is converter to RTF but there will be many issues with complex formatting). 3. Is there any tools, that given an ODF file, can automatically generate a XSL from docbook to that ODF layout? If not, that's mean I need to learn the ODF specification, and how to generate XML for complex formatting in ODF, and how to do it using XSL. This sounds to be huge endeavour, definitely sounds much more than scripting OpenOffice.org. Any other idea? Thanks! -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dl-VfU7g9ZgxX7GZwFJSaPsbg at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 22 00:09:47 2009 From: dl-VfU7g9ZgxX7GZwFJSaPsbg at public.gmane.org (Tyler) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:09:47 -0500 Subject: freenx question In-Reply-To: <20090220184653.GA20056-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20090220184653.GA20056@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <49A097CB.9040808@blackpacket.net> Neil Watson wrote: > In an attempt to over come ISP based throttling I've been looking at > Freenx. Having read the docs I'm still unclear as to how the client > authenticates. Why is an 'nx' user needed on the server? Does it work > like this? > > nxlcient --ssh as my acct-> sshserver --ssh as 'nx'-> localhost > > That seems very odd. Can anyone here explain how Freenx works? > > Sincerely, I believe the process works like this: nxclient connects as 'ns' using a universally-known private key for authentication. Although insecure, this account has absolutely no rights on the server system. (Alternatively, you can change out the key, but you would need to change it on every client.) Through this connection, the client authenticates (for real this time), negotiates the session (use disconnected session? start a new one?), and gets connection information. You then disconnect and reconnect as your user account, using the connection information you received. Tyler -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 22 02:41:59 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:41:59 -0500 Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 6:25 PM, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Christopher Browne wrote: >> >> "procedural" sorts of things (e.g. - opening files, databases, and such), > > Thanks for the comment! Yes, it is procedural, but a pretty established > routine: > open / connect to database, > query for the first grouping, > loop on the first grouping, > ... > query for the n grouping, > loop on the n grouping, > query for the details, > loop on the details > end loop > end loop > ... > end loop > close database None of that's surprising, and none of that is particularly plausible to do using LaTeX. It's a macro language intended to transform bits of text into the sets of glyphs, words, and paragraphs that get "glued together" to comprise a document. Querying and looping aren't things it really has concepts for. > Basically normal loop for a database report generator. In fact, I probably > can use most report generator (including OpenOffice.org Base) to get the > *content* I needed. The problems are that I cannot get in the *layout* I > needed, and that some other report generators cannot produce output to all > format I need (PDF, HTML, editable MS Word). Getting all of those forms *is* a pretty high "bar" to set. I'd observe that on MacOS, the general model that the platform has taken has been to make it as convenient as possible to generate PDF output. For all kinds of applications, there's really just the one form of output, which simplifies things dramatically. I understand why someone might ask for all formats to do all kinds of things, but they'll have to accept that choosing to generate output in all those forms is a mighty expensive endeavor since they are conceptually such different forms. >> Again, it's not amenable, by itself, to programming things like mail merge >> or database access - you'd presumably want to write code in some other >> language that generates DocBook XML/SGML as output. > > Ok, docbook will be something different: it is not a layout nor template, > but more like structured content. So the procedure will be as below, right? > 1. A script queries the database according the rules of the intended > layout. > 2. The script generate a docbook contain the data. > 3. An XSL convert the docbook to intended XML or an intermediate XML > according to intended layout. > 4. Another converter convert the intermediate XML to final non-XML > document. XSL is one possibility, yes. I have *far* more frequently used DSSSL, myself, but XSL does seem to be the "modern way" to do remappings. > There are several issues with using docbook this way: > > 1. The "intended layout" / template definition need to be broken into the > rules for the docbook generator script and the XSL. This complicates > changing the "intended layout" / template. > 2. As MS Word .doc files are not XML, the docbook need to be converted to > something else first. It seems the good candidate is to ODF (there is > converter to RTF but there will be many issues with complex formatting). > 3. Is there any tools, that given an ODF file, can automatically generate a > XSL from docbook to that ODF layout? If not, that's mean I need to learn the > ODF specification, and how to generate XML for complex formatting in ODF, > and how to do it using XSL. This sounds to be huge endeavour, definitely > sounds much more than scripting OpenOffice.org. I think you're fairly nicely characterizing the problems that you'll face in trying to "be all things at once." Conceivably, generating ODF (which, as you suggest, could be quite a task) could replace generating DocBook. You may want to step back and present, to the stakeholders, that trying to create editable highly-formatted reports will be mighty costly, and point out that cutting down on the number of formats (e.g. - I could see arguing for "only PDF") would be a Very Large Savings in how much it costs them to have their desired report generation infrastructure. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html Fred Allen - "California is a fine place to live - if you happen to be an orange." -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Sun Feb 22 07:25:58 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 02:25:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Advice for a document management system In-Reply-To: References: <498B2C3A.6030900@linuxcaffe.ca> <20090205181927.GA26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <4416.173.34.8.54.1233863480.squirrel@webmail.ee.ryerson.ca> <20090206143750.GE26063@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > There is LyX with WYSIWYM which may close the gap. > LyX rocks. I've used it to write 90% of all my documents since about 2003. Note, it is quite different to the word processors that most people are used to. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 07:00:29 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 02:00:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: my last-minute CRTC submission on net neutrality Message-ID: The CRTC is accepting comments from the public until today. The request for comments is here: http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2008/pt2008-19.htm To respond, go here: http://support.crtc.gc.ca/rapidscin/default.aspx?lang=en go to the bottom of the pages and click on the button labelled pt2008-19-2 You can type in a comment or upload a an HTML, MS Word, of MS Excel document I've attached my proposed submission. I welcome suggestions, preferably before, say, noon. PS: I don't really know HTML. One problem that I've inherited from the original document is that I use
    for indentation (dumb, I think). I've not used
  • which is wrong. But if I add
  • I get bullets where I want nothing. CSS can fix this but I don't know how to use CSS. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 07:37:43 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 02:37:43 -0500 Subject: xine sound crippled In-Reply-To: <499F91FE.1020508-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <499F91FE.1020508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A25247.4010902@gmail.com> No one answered. Without sound and video working properly forget about linux as a desktop. zb. Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Some here are good in these multimedia things. I am not. > > I like watching movies from Google Movies. I intercept them and save > from web browser cache and then try to use xine to play. > > Movies are displayed properly when viewed in web browser window > (flash), with sound played properly also. > > However, some movies, while video plays properly, have problem with > sound, when I try to play later a copy from a stored file. > > This is definitely a problem of xine and/or audio codecs. > > Why I know this? Because I installed a newest version of xine and > after that some movies that played sound properly with older version > had problem to play properly sound with newer version. While some > movies that could not play the sound properly with older version, now > do not play well with newer version. > > The sound does exist but it is so crippled that it is very hard to > understand it. > > All this is very frustrating. How to approach the problem? > > zb. > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 08:36:35 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 03:36:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: my last-minute CRTC submission on net neutralityy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The CRTC is accepting comments from the public until today. > > The request for comments is here: > http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2008/pt2008-19.htm > > To respond, go here: > http://support.crtc.gc.ca/rapidscin/default.aspx?lang=en > go to the bottom of the pages and click on the button labelled > pt2008-19-2 > > You can type in a comment or upload a an HTML, MS Word, of MS Excel > document > > I've attached my proposed submission. I welcome suggestions, preferably > before, say, noon. > > PS: I don't really know HTML. One problem that I've inherited from the > original document is that I use
      for indentation (dumb, I > think). I've not used
    • which is wrong. But if I add
    • I get > bullets where I want nothing. CSS can fix this but I don't know how to > use CSS. You can get rid of the bullets with:
        .
      • ....
      If all you want to do is indent, the easiest (though, strictly speaking, incorrect) way is to use
      . Or use a class:

      And put a style block in the of the document: -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 16:09:54 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:09:54 -0500 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: <499EFF35.9000903-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090223160953.GA23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 12:06:29PM -0700, Marc Lanctot wrote: > I'm considering buying one of the new one-piece Macbooks. I apologize in > advance; I know nothing about these or their OS. I'm looking for answers > from people who've had experience in doing what I am considering doing > and can shed some light on there experience. > > Can you comment on: > > - general compatibility of X-based apps and the leading X server. Would > I be able to compile and run, eg. gvim, without an X-server? Would > running gvim be slow because I have to run and X server just to use it? Well it has an x server. Vim may already support mac os x, just like it supports os/2, windows, and some other systems. > - fink; its compatibility and package support. Is it a sufficient > analogue of APT? In particular, for example can I use fink to install > boost/boost-dev, gvim, and/or GLPK? Does it work like apt and resolves > dependencies & downloads binaries (no compilation required)? Is > installing free / open-source stuff as easy and painless as it is on say > Debian and Ubuntu? Fink works very well. I believe they have binaries, but it certainly can work from source too. It is quite painless (or at least was when I played with it 6 years ago). > - suppose I download the source of a random non-X open source project > intended to compile+run on a Linux machine. How likely is it that it > will build on MacOS X? Will pretty much any piece of source code that > has Linux system calls fail to compile in MacOS X? I assume the worst > but maybe you can be the bringer of good news! Well underneath the fancy GUI, is a BSD system, and it does come with an X server you can run. Most things should build and run quite easily, and there are even prebuilt things you can install using something like 'fink' which is a debian dpkg/apt based system for mac os x. > - do the mac books come (only) with Intel chips now? Are they 64-bit > processors? Yes and yes as far as I know. I believe they have all been Core 2 Duo processors. > - in the worst case if MacOS X will slow me down then maybe I'll > dual-boot the thing. Do you know of anybody who has a Mac/Linux > dual-boot? Have you done it? In general, is this hard to setup or > cumbersome to maintain? Lots of people have dual boot mac os X and linux. Some even tripple boot with windows as well. > - As a Linux user is there any reason you would recommend against buying > a Macbook (other than the "proprietary is evil" argument)? They are lovely machines, although priced rather high for what you get. There have been some serious quality issues with some models and the response from apple has apparently not been great in some cases. I have never owned one so I don't know about that myself. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 16:12:36 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:12:36 -0500 Subject: Questions from a Linux user considering a Macbook In-Reply-To: <2274b9c30902201437r7e3daa96tb03f85979c9b93f3-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <499EFF35.9000903@ualberta.ca> <2274b9c30902201437r7e3daa96tb03f85979c9b93f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090223161236.GB23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 05:37:03PM -0500, Kyle O'Donnell wrote: > I just picked up my macbook on the weekend and I was going to run > Linux instead of OSX, but I figured I would give OSX a try for a > while. > > I've been running a UNIX based (Linux/Free/OpenBSD) desktop as my > primary machine for over a decade and I was reluctant at first, but > after only 3 days I am ... wouldn't say converted, but very impressed. > > I find myself using X11 less and less and native osx apps more. There > seem to be a number of equivalent tools available natively. > > Don't forget about macports, which brings bsd style ports to osx (if > you are not familiar, ports ==apt-get||yum) No ports is really not like apt. It is much less capable than apt, and generally a pain to deal with. I really despise the BSD user space in general. Lovely kernels, lovely software quality, awful user interface and install system. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 16:35:12 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:35:12 -0500 Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090223163512.GC23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 06:03:28PM -0500, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > I am looking for a solution for document templating / report generation. > There is a discussion similar to this earlier on the thread "Advice for a > document management system" > some > time ago, but the requirement I have is a bit different, so I start a new > thread. > > Basically I need several documents whose content mostly derived from a > single database (do those documents shared a lot of content with each > other) but which information in each document can be different. The > layout of the documents varies greatly, including how the database > information laid out in each document. This is basically more like > reports from database application (such as MS Access), only that the > layout setting can be quite complex (font sizes, table, floating frame, > etc.). > > When the information in the database changed, the document must be > regenerated. The document layouts (templates) are changes all the time as > well, which mean the documents must also be regenerated. Additionally, > for each document layout (template), more than one documents may be > generated for different query. > The resulting documents have to be in PDF, HTML, and editabel MS Word > (tables etc should be there). Additionally it will be nice to have > OpenOffice.org file as well. Text files are needed also, but I guess it > will be trivial. I think you may unfortunately have to make a choice: You can have good looking consistent auto generated documents or you can have something you can edit in a word processor. Now why you would ever want to even allow someone to edit the report after it was generated just makes no sense to me. How would you format the table in plain text? > What I think right now is using OpenOffice.org. Unfortunately the report > feature in OpenOffice.org Base is very limited (no way to have free form > report - it has to be in table). Using mailmerge can have any form, but > no way to make a loop in a Writer document. I am thinking to use > scripting to manually added "loop" feature to a mailmerge document. > > Obviously many in this forum familiar with latex. Can latex do the job? > Specifically, can latex embed feature to do database query and report > generation, or this have to be done externally (an external script that > modify latex document)? How good are latex exports to MS Word? latex is for typesetting. Not report generating. Perl is for report generating, and perl could generate the latex code which you then turn into HTML or PDF or whatever you need. Or you can look at a docbook based system, where you have templates for how to format tings (the style) and you generate the data with a perl script or similar. The data is then processed through the templates and out comes the resulting pdf, html or rtf or whatever you want. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 16:39:42 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:39:42 -0500 Subject: "green" drives and hdparm In-Reply-To: <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78@mail.gmail.com> <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090223163942.GD23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 09:16:35PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > anyone know much about this? I will use old drives for the os(es) but > hopefully a huge new drive for video. i'd really like to have it > parked//off when it's not in use -- that is, if nothing's recording or > playing. i remember there's been controversy about setting hd > powersaving parameters, especially in ubuntu, where i\iirc there were > lots of dead drives as a result of a bad policy decision.... Well if you power off the drive, that might take too long to spin up again if you suddenly have video data to store. Also spinning up takes power too. The green drives from WD generally run lower RPM and hence are a bit slower transfer rate, although often plenty for what you need, but by running slower they use less power. My experience also is that a drive lasts longer if you don't spin it down ever. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 16:53:54 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:53:54 -0500 Subject: my last-minute CRTC submission on net neutrality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090223165354.GE23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 02:00:29AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > The CRTC is accepting comments from the public until today. > > The request for comments is here: > http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2008/pt2008-19.htm > > To respond, go here: > http://support.crtc.gc.ca/rapidscin/default.aspx?lang=en > go to the bottom of the pages and click on the button labelled > pt2008-19-2 > > You can type in a comment or upload a an HTML, MS Word, of MS Excel > document > > I've attached my proposed submission. I welcome suggestions, preferably > before, say, noon. > > PS: I don't really know HTML. One problem that I've inherited from the > original document is that I use

        for indentation (dumb, I > think). I've not used
      • which is wrong. But if I add
      • I get > bullets where I want nothing. CSS can fix this but I don't know how to > use CSS. > > > > > D. Hugh Redelmeier's Response to Telecom Public Notice CRTC 2008-19 > > >

        >

        >
        >

        Recommendation and Rationale

        >

        > There are two practical means of providing broadband internet > connectivity for the vast majority of Canadian households: cable and phone line. > In fact a significant number of households have only one of these available. > >

        > This fact give the owners of the cable and telephone plant effective monopoly control over broadband. > Someday a third mechanism might become widely deployed but that isn't the case now. > Perhaps the correct term is duopoly, but it is simpler to use the word monopoly. > >

        > Technical reasons dictate that these monopolies cannot be eliminated. > But it hardly needs explanation that monopolies must be carefully constrained. > In particular, monopolies stifle the vibrant creativity of the marketplace. > >

        > One constraint that is necessary comes under the imprecise term network neutrality. > In particular, network implementations must not privilege in any way applications, providers, or goals > chosen by the monopoly providers. > >

        > This is especially the case when the monopoly provider also > provides a service for which it has competitors. > >

        > A microcosm of this is the traffic shaping by Bell of the traffic of its customers' customers. > The last mile that Bell provides has no contention (they've told me this in a series of ads) > so this portion cannot justify traffic management. > If there is contention, it must be in the back-haul from the central office to the ISP. > After all, the connection from the ISP to the internet cloud is provided by the ISP and not Bell. > If the back-haul traffic is to be shaped, the policies for shaping surely ought to be provided by > the actual customer (ISP), not the provider. Well there are quite a few connections involved. 1:The ADSL line from the end customer to the Bell CO. This line isn't shared and hence has no problem. 2:The line from the Bell CO to other parts of Bell for carrying the traffic between the CO and where the ISP connects to Bell. After all the ISP doesn't connect to Bell at the CO. 3:The line from Bell to the ISP. This one only affects the ISP's customers, and hence shouldn't be any of Bell's business. 4:The connection from the ISP to the rest of the internet. This one is certainly none of Bell's business. The traffic shaping Bell does is on number 2, the internal Bell network used to carry traffic between the COs and the ISPs (including Bell's own internet connections). This is the one Bell claims is getting overloaded. I find it ammusing that Bell advertises having a "next generation fiber optic network" while at the same time whining about too much traffic overloading their network. I guess the question is: What is the ISP paying Bell to provide when a DSL customer has a Bell phone line and gets DSL service through a given ISP? Certainly there is the connection to a DSLAM and providing the actual DSL connection. Then there is carrying the traffic from the CO to somewhere that the ISP has a connection to Bell. Is there any limits or promisses on the amount or speed of data that Bell is going to carry? I am sure that like all other phone companies, Bell is used to oversubscribing their system since that's how circuit switched systems were done. Now that suddenly everything could be used at the same time, and some people really are running close to 24/7 use of their line (after all they advertise it as always on), their system is suddenly not keeping up. Now rather than expanding to meet demand, they seem to have decided that they can just reduce usage on their lines by whatever means they want, since they apparently don't think they ever promised any particular level of service. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 17:08:24 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:08:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Christopher Browne wrote: > none of that is particularly plausible to do using LaTeX. > > It's a macro language intended to transform bits of text into > the sets of glyphs, words, and paragraphs that get "glued > together" to comprise a document. Ok, so the proper mechanism when the text content is variable, is to have other script generate a Latex document, right? > Getting all of those forms *is* a pretty high "bar" to set. Thanks for the comment. While I am not sure I agree about it is being "high" - obviously for word processor (formated document editor) this is a normal requirement - but basically you said the the requirement that it should go to various format put the solution in somewhat narrow choices. > Conceivably, generating ODF (which, as you suggest, could be > quite a task) could replace generating DocBook. My thought as well. Of course with ODF we can have much easier tools such as UNO interface of OpenOffice.org, so I don't even have to know the internal structure of ODF XML. -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 17:42:13 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:42:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: <20090223163512.GC23245-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090223163512.GC23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > I think you may unfortunately have to make a choice: > You can have good looking consistent auto generated documents > or you can have something you can edit in a word processor. Well, basically I want both. :-) > Now why you would ever want to even allow someone to edit the > report after it was generated just makes no sense to me. These are not "report" per se, these are documents. I mentioned report generation mechanism since I need to have those documents produced through similar mechanism. As documents they may get edited again by the recipients as needed. > How would you format the table in plain text? Most likely the plain text one will be from a separate template which accommodate plain text (i.e. no real layout complexity). In any case not a significant part of the requirement. > latex is for typesetting. Not report generating. Perl is for > report generating, and perl could generate the latex code > which you then turn into HTML or PDF or whatever you need. How good are latex exports to MS Word or OpenOffice.org? > Or you can look at a docbook based system, where you have > templates for how to format tings (the style) and you generate > the data with a perl script or similar. The data is then > processed through the templates and out comes the resulting > pdf, html or rtf or whatever you want. However, creating the template for a specific layout - a complex one - can be a huge endeavour. Thanks! -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 17:47:13 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:47:13 -0500 Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: References: <20090223163512.GC23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090223174713.GB21465@watson-wilson.ca> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 12:42:13PM -0500, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > How good are latex exports to MS Word or OpenOffice.org? You can output to RTF but the results are poor. I posted here a while back about trying to create a Word version of my resume from the Latex source. I ended up having to keep two versions. One in Latex to offer HTML, PDF and text. The other was Word which I hate giving out because the head hunters have a habit of reformatting or changing it. -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 18:11:46 2009 From: arifsaha-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (S P Arif Sahari Wibowo) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:11:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: <20090223174713.GB21465-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20090223163512.GC23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090223174713.GB21465@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Neil Watson wrote: > You can output to RTF but the results are poor. I posted here > a while back about trying to create a Word version of my > resume from the Latex source. Googling around there is also other solution using TeX4ht tool; not sure how that perform. > The other was Word which I hate giving out because the head > hunters have a habit of reformatting or changing it. Well, I think head hunters often have to at least remove all references to you, in case their clients will try to bypass the head hunters by saying they saw the applicants before. -- (stephan paul) Arif Sahari Wibowo _____ _____ _____ _____ /____ /____/ /____/ /____ _____/ / / / _____/ http://www.arifsaha.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 18:57:40 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:57:40 -0500 Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2009-02-23, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Christopher Browne wrote: >> none of that is particularly plausible to do using LaTeX. >> >> It's a macro language intended to transform bits of text into >> the sets of glyphs, words, and paragraphs that get "glued >> together" to comprise a document. > > Ok, so the proper mechanism when the text content is variable, > is to have other script generate a Latex document, right? Yes, that would be a fine idea. >> Getting all of those forms *is* a pretty high "bar" to set. > > Thanks for the comment. While I am not sure I agree about it is > being "high" - obviously for word processor (formated document > editor) this is a normal requirement - but basically you said > the the requirement that it should go to various format put the > solution in somewhat narrow choices. The more requirements that you add to your specification, the greater the risk that you'll find them either mutually contradictory, or that you rule out all pre-existing possible solutions. >> Conceivably, generating ODF (which, as you suggest, could be >> quite a task) could replace generating DocBook. > > My thought as well. Of course with ODF we can have much easier > tools such as UNO interface of OpenOffice.org, so I don't even > have to know the internal structure of ODF XML. Not being familiar with UNO, I don't know whether or not that represents an "easy" tool to use. If it is, then you have your solution... -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 20:25:14 2009 From: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ken Burtch) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:25:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: xine sound crippled In-Reply-To: <49A25247.4010902-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <499F91FE.1020508@gmail.com> <49A25247.4010902@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, if it's a codec problem, you could try installing older codec packages from the mplayer web site, www.mplayerhq.hu. Maybe it's a bug in the newer codecs. xine / totem both are both front-ends to mplayer, if I remember correctly. Ken B. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: 905-562-0848 "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > No one answered. > > Without sound and video working properly forget about linux as a desktop. > > zb. > > Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >> Some here are good in these multimedia things. I am not. >> >> I like watching movies from Google Movies. I intercept them and save from >> web browser cache and then try to use xine to play. >> >> Movies are displayed properly when viewed in web browser window (flash), >> with sound played properly also. >> >> However, some movies, while video plays properly, have problem with sound, >> when I try to play later a copy from a stored file. >> >> This is definitely a problem of xine and/or audio codecs. >> >> Why I know this? Because I installed a newest version of xine and after >> that some movies that played sound properly with older version had >> problem to play properly sound with newer version. While some movies that >> could not play the sound properly with older version, now do not play well >> with newer version. >> >> The sound does exist but it is so crippled that it is very hard to >> understand it. >> >> All this is very frustrating. How to approach the problem? >> >> zb. >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 20:52:32 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:52:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: my last-minute CRTC submission on net neutrality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: D. Hugh Redelmeier | To respond, go here: | http://support.crtc.gc.ca/rapidscin/default.aspx?lang=en | go to the bottom of the pages and click on the button labelled | pt2008-19-2 | | You can type in a comment or upload a an HTML, MS Word, of MS Excel | document Thanks for your help. When I tried to submit, I got an error from their Microsoft web server: Server Error in '/RapidsCIN' Application. Object reference not set to an instance of an object. Version Information: Microsoft .NET Framework Version:1.1.4322.2300; ASP.NET Version:1.1.4322.2300 I tried again and it worked. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 20:53:07 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:53:07 -0500 Subject: BASH 4.0 Has Been Released Message-ID: <7c50d3570902231253h6ba08814xf85284325b4b1fbb@mail.gmail.com> http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bashtop.html -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 22:01:53 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:01:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: BASH 4.0 Has Been Released In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570902231253h6ba08814xf85284325b4b1fbb-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570902231253h6ba08814xf85284325b4b1fbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: | From: Michael Lauzon | http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bashtop.html Thanks for the news. Odd new features: d. There is a new `autocd' option that, when enabled, causes bash to attempt to `cd' to a directory name that is supplied as the first word of a simple command. h. If creation of a child process fails due to insufficient resources, bash will try again several times before reporting failure. w. There is a new shell option: `globstar'. When enabled, the globbing code treats `**' specially -- it matches all directories (and files within them, when appropriate) recursively. [I proposed this syntax and semantics over 20 years ago. Smart folks said that this gets messy when symlinks are used.] ee. The new `;&' case statement action list terminator causes execution to continue with the action associated with the next pattern in the statement rather than terminating the command. ff. The new `;;&' case statement action list terminator causes the shell to test the next set of patterns after completing execution of the current action, rather than terminating the command. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 22:30:27 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:30:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: BASH 4.0 Has Been Released In-Reply-To: References: <7c50d3570902231253h6ba08814xf85284325b4b1fbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Michael Lauzon > > | http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bashtop.html > > Thanks for the news. > > Odd new features: The features I like best are the new parameter expansions: ${var^}, ${var,}, etc.. The new mapfile builtin might also come in handy. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster ========= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: ======== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 22:38:30 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:38:30 -0500 Subject: xine sound crippled In-Reply-To: References: <499F91FE.1020508@gmail.com> <49A25247.4010902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A32566.1000703@gmail.com> Ken, I know that website. Is it not somewhat ridiculous that sound and video on Linux depend on a single semi-legal website in Hungary? Hungary is a wonderful country. I have been there in 1978. ;) zb. Ken Burtch wrote: > Well, if it's a codec problem, you could try installing older codec > packages from the mplayer web site, www.mplayerhq.hu. Maybe it's a > bug in the newer codecs. xine / totem both are both front-ends to > mplayer, if I remember correctly. > > Ken B. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ken O. Burtch Phone/Fax: > 905-562-0848 > "Linux Shell Scripting with Bash" Email: > ken-8VyUGRzHQ8IsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > "Perl Phrasebook" Blog: > http://www.pegasoft.ca/coder.html > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> No one answered. >> >> Without sound and video working properly forget about linux as a >> desktop. >> >> zb. >> >> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: >>> Some here are good in these multimedia things. I am not. >>> >>> I like watching movies from Google Movies. I intercept them and save >>> from web browser cache and then try to use xine to play. >>> >>> Movies are displayed properly when viewed in web browser window >>> (flash), with sound played properly also. >>> >>> However, some movies, while video plays properly, have problem with >>> sound, when I try to play later a copy from a stored file. >>> >>> This is definitely a problem of xine and/or audio codecs. >>> >>> Why I know this? Because I installed a newest version of xine and >>> after that some movies that played sound properly with older >>> version had problem to play properly sound with newer version. While >>> some movies that could not play the sound properly with older >>> version, now do not play well with newer version. >>> >>> The sound does exist but it is so crippled that it is very hard to >>> understand it. >>> >>> All this is very frustrating. How to approach the problem? >>> >>> zb. >>> >>> -- >>> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >>> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >>> >> >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 06:27:48 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 01:27:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: <1235099596.11996.59.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> <499DCF9C.8080506@utoronto.ca> <1235099596.11996.59.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, I. Khider wrote: > this, I will take HP to the BBB. On top of that, I want a credit for > Windows. Why should I pay for something I do not want? That money can go > to a new battery or something. I'm not Bill Gates! 11 years ago and a different country but this is worth looking at: http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html I met Geoff once. Cool guy. Thanks to this incident he's a minor celebrity amone OSSers in Australia :) Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 18:08:34 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:08:34 -0500 Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> <499DCF9C.8080506@utoronto.ca> <1235099596.11996.59.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <1235498914.3842.24.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello Robert and thanks for the update, much appreciated. I forwarded the link to the HP sales rep I have been dealing with. Richard Weait was super-helpful by introducing me Bob Gobeille who works at the HP Open Source Program Office. Bob spoke with the World Directory at HP and got them to change the warranty policy on HP products for Linux users. This means that HP, like Toshiba, Averatec, Asus, et al will fully back their hardware warranty for servicing if Linux is installed. Bob informed me that a circular was passed down to HP call centre managers to spread the good word for Linux users. Of course, Jamon spoiled the victory when he posted about how I can get a refund on the Windows OS. (Those Linux users, give 'em an inch and they want a kilometer! ) Now I will settle for nothing less than complete removal of the Windows OS AND an OS refund with the machine upon purchase. Again, Bob at HP says that is possible--but he referred me the US site where a buyer can remove the OS, not so for Canada, yet. My HP sales rep (Glenna, who uses Ubuntu on her machine, hence why I like her) has yet to get back to me to confirm all this wonderful information. Upon confirmation, however, I said I will place an order. Bob mentioned it will take time for the information to spread at HP as it is a big company. I would love to see the face of those call centre mangers, technicians and other sales people who told me otherwise. This is great information and I will spread it to other Linux users I know to ensure they do not pay the Windows tax. Vivat Linux and super-helpful Opensource People! -ib- On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 01:27 -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, I. Khider wrote: > > > this, I will take HP to the BBB. On top of that, I want a credit for > > Windows. Why should I pay for something I do not want? That money can go > > to a new battery or something. I'm not Bill Gates! > > 11 years ago and a different country but this is worth looking at: > > http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html > > I met Geoff once. Cool guy. Thanks to this incident he's a minor > celebrity amone OSSers in Australia :) > > Cheers, > > Rob > > -- > I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 14:21:30 2009 From: hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Howard Gibson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:21:30 -0500 Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: <20090223174713.GB21465-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <20090223163512.GC23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090223174713.GB21465@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <20090224092130.850edfb6.hgibson@eol.ca> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:47:13 -0500 Neil Watson wrote: > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 12:42:13PM -0500, S P Arif Sahari Wibowo wrote: > > How good are latex exports to MS Word or OpenOffice.org? > > You can output to RTF but the results are poor. I posted here a while > back about trying to create a Word version of my resume from the Latex > source. I ended up having to keep two versions. One in Latex to offer > HTML, PDF and text. The other was Word which I hate giving out because > the head hunters have a habit of reformatting or changing it. Neil, I use latex2rtf for this. Visually, the text formatting is actually not bad. All of LaTeX's intelligence is gone, unfortunately. It would nice to have something that would write LaTeX out with a logical style sheet. -- Howard Gibson hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org howardg-PadmjKOQAFn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 14:13:22 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:13:22 -0500 Subject: Document Templating / Report Generation solution? In-Reply-To: <20090224092130.850edfb6.hgibson-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <20090223163512.GC23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <20090223174713.GB21465@watson-wilson.ca> <20090224092130.850edfb6.hgibson@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20090224141322.GA2412@watson-wilson.ca> On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 09:21:30AM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote: > I use latex2rtf for this. Visually, the text formatting is actually This is what I used also. As you say it is not bad. When documents ranges beyond block paragraphs things go down hill. -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 15:55:12 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:55:12 -0500 Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: <1235498914.3842.24.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> <499DCF9C.8080506@utoronto.ca> <1235099596.11996.59.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1235498914.3842.24.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49A41860.2030108@telly.org> I. Khider wrote: > Richard Weait was super-helpful by introducing me Bob Gobeille who > works at the HP Open Source Program Office. Bob spoke with the World > Directory at HP and got them to change the warranty policy on HP > products for Linux users. This means that HP, like Toshiba, Averatec, > Asus, et al will fully back their hardware warranty for servicing if > Linux is installed. Bob informed me that a circular was passed down to > HP call centre managers to spread the good word for Linux users. Good to see this is resolving well. Certainly HP as a company was not completely badmouthing Linux; they appear to have invested significantly, for instance, in a unique Ubuntu-based netbook user interface -- http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7556806272.html HP servers certainly support Red Hat and SuSE, and their Linux printer support is the best in the industry. So it was a matter of one arm of HP that was acting badly. A company-wide complaint would have been not only pointless but lacking credibility. > Of course, Jamon spoiled the victory when he posted about how I can > get a refund on the Windows OS. (Those Linux users, give 'em an inch > and they want a kilometer! ) Now I will settle for nothing less than > complete removal of the Windows OS AND an OS refund with the machine > upon purchase. The refund is usually very small, considering the small amount OEMs pay for their copies (and especially if those copies are subsidized by pre-loaded trials of antivirus, etc). Besides, often companies will put useful hardware diagnostics on their Windows partitions. If some hardware fails to work under Linux, booting to Windows is helpful in tracing whether it's a driver or software problem. (For instance: a recent kernel update -- 2.6.27-11 -- broke the driver for the Realtek Ethernet chipset, a very common one in laptops.) Certainly booting Windows will help you with the helpdesk... If a system doesn't ship with Windows I won't load it. But if it DOES ship with it I just reduce its partition size to about 6GB, put Linux on the rest, and set it up for dual boot. Getting the money back in the past has usually not been worth the hassle and the Windows partition just might come in handy -- if you already have it. > This is great information and I will spread it to other Linux users I > know to ensure they do not pay the Windows tax. If your time has any value at all you'll be paying more than double that tax to ask for the refund. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 16:31:10 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:31:10 -0500 Subject: BASH 4.0 Has Been Released In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570902231253h6ba08814xf85284325b4b1fbb-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <7c50d3570902231253h6ba08814xf85284325b4b1fbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280902240831r22ce3c5fh532480d332448897@mail.gmail.com> 2009/2/23 Michael Lauzon : > http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bashtop.html ii. The shell provides associative array variables, with the appropriate support to create, delete, assign values to, and expand them. Associative arrays - that's got to be good. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 18:31:34 2009 From: kevin-4dS5u2o1hCn3fQ9qLvQP4Q at public.gmane.org (Kevin Cozens) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:31:34 -0500 Subject: anti-Linux Policy at HP In-Reply-To: <49996DA3.9030000-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1234780421.18993.12.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49996DA3.9030000@rogers.com> Message-ID: <49A43D06.3020606@ve3syb.ca> James Knott wrote: > One suggestion I've heard, is to send the computer back without the hard > drive and a note saying it was removed due to confidential content. Interesting idea. Of course, one hopes that opening the machine to removed the hard drive won't void the warranty on the machine. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 |"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include | -Pinkutus & the Borg -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 18:52:49 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:52:49 -0500 Subject: wierd firefox issue w/ nytimes.com Message-ID: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> hey folks this is a little OT, but since i don't know where else to turn... i've been having a little trouble with firefox for the last 2 months or so. this is running ubuntu intrepid, firefox version 3.0.6 +nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.10.1 . At least one site I use a lot, www.nytimes.com, renders very poorly -- I see the top banner and the left column of what should be the main table, but the main body of the site doesn't display at the top -- instead, I find it waaaayyyy down below the very long left-hand column. and below the first set of stories, there's another loooooooong break, and then the rest of the page. I've created a new profile, and the new profile does NOT have the same problem, so presumably the issue lies in my Default profile. But4 I've disabled every add-in and wiped the cache without any effect. Has anyone else ever seen this problem -- and hopefully solved it? Or if not, any suggestions for a more systematic testing that isn't likely to wreck my firefox setup -- I've done a fair bit of customization and don't want to start from scratch. anyway, thanks as always, matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 19:01:09 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:01:09 -0500 Subject: wierd firefox issue w/ nytimes.com In-Reply-To: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> References: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090224190108.GF23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 01:52:49PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > hey folks > > this is a little OT, but since i don't know where else to turn... > > i've been having a little trouble with firefox for the last 2 months or > so. this is running ubuntu intrepid, firefox version 3.0.6 > +nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.10.1 . At least one site I use a lot, > www.nytimes.com, renders very poorly -- I see the top banner and the > left column of what should be the main table, but the main body of the > site doesn't display at the top -- instead, I find it waaaayyyy down > below the very long left-hand column. and below the first set of > stories, there's another loooooooong break, and then the rest of the > page. I've created a new profile, and the new profile does NOT have the > same problem, so presumably the issue lies in my Default profile. But4 > I've disabled every add-in and wiped the cache without any effect. Has > anyone else ever seen this problem -- and hopefully solved it? Or if > not, any suggestions for a more systematic testing that isn't likely to > wreck my firefox setup -- I've done a fair bit of customization and > don't want to start from scratch. anyway, thanks as always, iceweasel 3.0.6 on debian lenny looks fine to me on that page. Sounds like you have someting messed up in your user's settings for firefox. Maybe a font size change, or other change that affects the layout. The cache and add-ins have nothing to do with your settings. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 19:36:13 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:36:13 -0500 Subject: wierd firefox issue w/ nytimes.com In-Reply-To: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> References: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <49A44C2D.3070209@ualberta.ca> Matt Price wrote: > hey folks > > this is a little OT, but since i don't know where else to turn... > > i've been having a little trouble with firefox for the last 2 months or > so. this is running ubuntu intrepid, firefox version 3.0.6 > +nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.10.1 . At least one site I use a lot, > www.nytimes.com, renders very poorly -- I see the top banner and the > left column of what should be the main table, but the main body of the > site doesn't display at the top -- instead, I find it waaaayyyy down > below the very long left-hand column. and below the first set of > stories, there's another loooooooong break, and then the rest of the > page. I've created a new profile, and the new profile does NOT have the > same problem, so presumably the issue lies in my Default profile. But4 > I've disabled every add-in and wiped the cache without any effect. Has > anyone else ever seen this problem -- and hopefully solved it? Or if > not, any suggestions for a more systematic testing that isn't likely to > wreck my firefox setup -- I've done a fair bit of customization and > don't want to start from scratch. anyway, thanks as always, > Just a suggestion.. a shot in the dark, really. This is probably a bad thing to do in general. Try a recursive copy of all the files in your old profile (under ~/.mozilla/firefox) to the new profile, then try bringing up Firefox with the new profile. It's possible that it's due to a custom setting several versions ago that is stored somewhere outside your profile (but attached to that profile) or an improperly updated file which may be noticed when you bring up the new profile. Assuming this even works.. if the problem occurs in the new profile after the copy, then if you have enough patience you can repeat the trial-and-error copying file-by-file to find the culprit. And then try a profile that doesn't have a copy of that file but has everything else. Marc -- A computer without Windows is like chocolate cake without mustard. -- Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Tue Feb 24 20:03:31 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:03:31 -0500 Subject: wierd firefox issue w/ nytimes.com In-Reply-To: <20090224190108.GF23245-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> <20090224190108.GF23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1235505812.7752.7087.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 14:01 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 01:52:49PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > > hey folks > > > > this is a little OT, but since i don't know where else to turn... > > > > i've been having a little trouble with firefox for the last 2 months or > > so. this is running ubuntu intrepid, firefox version 3.0.6 > > +nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.10.1 . At least one site I use a lot, > > www.nytimes.com, renders very poorly -- I see the top banner and the > > left column of what should be the main table, but the main body of the > > site doesn't display at the top -- instead, I find it waaaayyyy down > > below the very long left-hand column. and below the first set of > > stories, there's another loooooooong break, and then the rest of the > > page. I've created a new profile, and the new profile does NOT have the > > same problem, so presumably the issue lies in my Default profile. But4 > > I've disabled every add-in and wiped the cache without any effect. Has > > anyone else ever seen this problem -- and hopefully solved it? Or if > > not, any suggestions for a more systematic testing that isn't likely to > > wreck my firefox setup -- I've done a fair bit of customization and > > don't want to start from scratch. anyway, thanks as always, > > iceweasel 3.0.6 on debian lenny looks fine to me on that page. > > Sounds like you have someting messed up in your user's settings for > firefox. Maybe a font size change, or other change that affects the > layout. > > The cache and add-ins have nothing to do with your settings. well, i did have some addins (greasemonkey & adblock, e.g.) that can affect layout when rendering. but it's not them. i don't htink it's a font size setting either, but i'll keep checking. m > -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 02:01:58 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:01:58 -0500 Subject: wierd firefox issue w/ nytimes.com In-Reply-To: <49A44C2D.3070209-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> <49A44C2D.3070209@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <1235527318.7752.8169.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 14:36 -0500, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Matt Price wrote: > > hey folks > > > > this is a little OT, but since i don't know where else to turn... > > > > i've been having a little trouble with firefox for the last 2 months or > > so. this is running ubuntu intrepid, firefox version 3.0.6 > > +nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.10.1 . At least one site I use a lot, > > www.nytimes.com, renders very poorly -- I see the top banner and the > > left column of what should be the main table, but the main body of the > > site doesn't display at the top -- instead, I find it waaaayyyy down > > below the very long left-hand column. and below the first set of > > stories, there's another loooooooong break, and then the rest of the > > page. I've created a new profile, and the new profile does NOT have the > > same problem, so presumably the issue lies in my Default profile. But4 > > I've disabled every add-in and wiped the cache without any effect. Has > > anyone else ever seen this problem -- and hopefully solved it? Or if > > not, any suggestions for a more systematic testing that isn't likely to > > wreck my firefox setup -- I've done a fair bit of customization and > > don't want to start from scratch. anyway, thanks as always, > > > > Just a suggestion.. a shot in the dark, really. This is probably a bad > thing to do in general. > > Try a recursive copy of all the files in your old profile (under > ~/.mozilla/firefox) to the new profile, then try bringing up Firefox > with the new profile. It's possible that it's due to a custom setting > several versions ago that is stored somewhere outside your profile (but > attached to that profile) or an improperly updated file which may be > noticed when you bring up the new profile. > > Assuming this even works.. if the problem occurs in the new profile > after the copy, then if you have enough patience you can repeat the > trial-and-error copying file-by-file to find the culprit. And then try a > profile that doesn't have a copy of that file but has everything else. > well, this did work. the culprit is content-prefs.sqlite, which i guess stores site-specific preferences which somehow get automatically set when you visit the site. I'd really like to be able to just remove the preferences for nytimes.com, but there's no obvious interface to the database from within firefox, and i'm not familiar enough with sqlite to feel comfortable just deleting an entry -- though i guess i probably could do that and try. anyway thanks! matt > Marc > -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 02:10:01 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:10:01 -0500 Subject: wierd firefox issue w/ nytimes.com In-Reply-To: <1235527318.7752.8169.camel@localhost> References: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> <49A44C2D.3070209@ualberta.ca> <1235527318.7752.8169.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1235527801.7752.8194.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 21:01 -0500, Matt Price wrote: > I'd really like to be able to just remove the > preferences for nytimes.com, but there's no obvious interface to the > database from within firefox, and i'm not familiar enough with sqlite to > feel comfortable just deleting an entry -- though i guess i probably > could do that and try. did it, and it was easy. just 2 DELETE statements from the sqlite command prompt, and my problem's solved! m -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 03:18:39 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:18:39 -0500 Subject: wierd firefox issue w/ nytimes.com In-Reply-To: <1235527318.7752.8169.camel@localhost> References: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> <49A44C2D.3070209@ualberta.ca> <1235527318.7752.8169.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090225031839.GA20390@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 09:01:58PM -0500, Matt Price wrote: >well, this did work. the culprit is content-prefs.sqlite, which i guess >stores site-specific preferences which somehow get automatically set >when you visit the site. I'd really like to be able to just remove the >preferences for nytimes.com, but there's no obvious interface to the >database from within firefox, and i'm not familiar enough with sqlite to >feel comfortable just deleting an entry -- though i guess i probably >could do that and try. I see that you have solved your problem, but if anyone feels like exploring an sqlite database, like the one bundled with Firefox, there is a Firefox plugin for managing sqlite databases. It's a handy tool when you are dealing with a database you don't yet know. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 03:32:21 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:32:21 -0500 Subject: parsing HTML with awk or sed Message-ID: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7@mail.gmail.com> I'd like to extract the contents of paragraph tags (

        ) from an HTML file. Don't want anything else, just that - the P tags and what's inside them, all other tags and contents not printed. Unfortunately, some are single line:

        data

        and some are multi-line:

        More data

        cat filename | sed -n '/

        /,/<\/p>/p' works fine on the latter but not the former. I can catch the former on a separate sweep, but I need to get both in one pass. Awk is fine too, in fact I'd probably prefer it. I have a mild aversion to perl, but would use it if needed. Here's an example file (most will be quite simple, similar to this): photo17

        Photo photo17

        Various discussion of what's going on in the photo.

        Photo #photo17

        Photo © 2001, Giles Orr

        Thanks for any help offered. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 03:34:00 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:34:00 -0500 Subject: wierd firefox issue w/ nytimes.com In-Reply-To: <1235527801.7752.8194.camel@localhost> References: <1235501569.7752.6797.camel@localhost> <49A44C2D.3070209@ualberta.ca> <1235527318.7752.8169.camel@localhost> <1235527801.7752.8194.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <49A4BC28.2080900@ualberta.ca> Matt Price wrote: > On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 21:01 -0500, Matt Price wrote: >> I'd really like to be able to just remove the >> preferences for nytimes.com, but there's no obvious interface to the >> database from within firefox, and i'm not familiar enough with sqlite to >> feel comfortable just deleting an entry -- though i guess i probably >> could do that and try. > > did it, and it was easy. just 2 DELETE statements from the sqlite > command prompt, and my problem's solved! Great, but what I should have suggested earlier and still suggest you do is follow-up with a Firefox support forum or mailing list; they'll be better-informed on how to "properly" deal with this problem.. or, there's a rare chance that you may have discovered a bug ("unintentional feature"?) that's hard to find because of your built-up environment. Marc -- A computer without Windows is like chocolate cake without mustard. -- Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 03:56:25 2009 From: tleslie-RBVUpeUoHUc at public.gmane.org (ted leslie) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:56:25 -0500 Subject: parsing HTML with awk or sed In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090224225625.cec1d4fa.tleslie@tcn.net> just remove all \r \n , i.e. bring it together on one long line, then do a split on

        i.e.

        -> \n

        and

        -> \n<\p> and your good to do what you have proposed to do below. -tl On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:32:21 -0500 Giles Orr wrote: > I'd like to extract the contents of paragraph tags (

        ) from an HTML > file. Don't want anything else, just that - the P tags and what's > inside them, all other tags and contents not printed. Unfortunately, > some are single line: > >

        data

        > > and some are multi-line: > >

        > More data > >

        > > cat filename | sed -n '/

        /,/<\/p>/p' works fine on the latter but > not the former. I can catch the former on a separate sweep, but I > need to get both in one pass. Awk is fine too, in fact I'd probably > prefer it. I have a mild aversion to perl, but would use it if > needed. > > Here's an example file (most will be quite simple, similar to this): > > > > > photo17 > > > >

        Photo photo17

        > >

        > Various discussion of what's going on in the photo. >

        > > > >
        Photo #photo17
        >

        Photo © 2001, Giles Orr

        > > > > > > Thanks for any help offered. > > -- > Giles > http://www.gilesorr.com/ > gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- ted leslie -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 03:57:46 2009 From: cfaj-uVmiyxGBW52XDw4h08c5KA at public.gmane.org (Chris F.A. Johnson) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:57:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: parsing HTML with awk or sed In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, Giles Orr wrote: > I'd like to extract the contents of paragraph tags (

        ) from an HTML > file. Don't want anything else, just that - the P tags and what's > inside them, all other tags and contents not printed. Unfortunately, > some are single line: > >

        data

        > > and some are multi-line: > >

        > More data > >

        > > cat filename | sed -n '/

        /,/<\/p>/p' works fine on the latter but > not the former. I can catch the former on a separate sweep, but I > need to get both in one pass. Awk is fine too, in fact I'd probably > prefer it. I have a mild aversion to perl, but would use it if > needed. > > Here's an example file (most will be quite simple, similar to this): > > > > > photo17 > > > >

        Photo photo17

        > >

        > Various discussion of what's going on in the photo. >

        > > > >
        Photo #photo17
        >

        Photo © 2001, Giles Orr

        > > > file=FILE.html sed -e 's|]*>|&\n|' -e 's|]*>|\n&|' "$file" | awk '/

        ]*>/,"") if ( length ) print } ' -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 03:57:51 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:57:51 -0500 Subject: OSS/Linux Games Programming (was "Re: [TLUG-ANNOUNCE]: Feb 24th NewTLUG meeting - games available under Linux") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A4C1BF.5050905@ualberta.ca> Herb Richter wrote: > > This month's NewTLUG meeting will be held at Seneca College on the YorkU > campus in room S2168 (SEQ building) - upper kaleidoscope room > I'm sorry that I could not make it out tonight, but here's an email I sent to Colin that I realize is relevant to the list.. I was hoping to talk about this with some of you tonight... ---- What an excellent subject! (The NewTLUG meeting subject) I've been thinking about forming or joining an existing "Linux/OSS Gaming Project" (a group of people interested in programming open-source games) lately. I'd like to know if there are any LUG members who would be interested in this as well, or even just forming a small group that would develop games in their spare time in the hopes that eventually it got big enough and be like a Sourceforge for games but with more emphasis on building a community of OSS games programmers that would contribute to each other's game projects. A few days ago I've been playing around with GCCG (http://gccg.sf.net/). I don't know if you've tried it or will be talking about it but if not maybe I can offer a few words. It's a general CCG engine; it has a virtual economy etc. for buying/trading/selling cards-- right now it has servers running 5-6 games and it's active, meaning there are people playing games on the servers so you can find people to play with. I haven't looked much into the code yet but I probably will because I wanted to make such a thing and had started but never had the time to finish it; now, I'm hoping to use it for a game I had in mind. I also had another idea a while back about an "Open Gaming Site". Sort of like a completely open/Web 2.0 version of Yahoo Games where anybody can develop and submit a game for others to play. Like Richard Rognlie's PBEM server but for games played in real-time. I've had a friend working on this since I had to bow out due to lack of time.. not sure how far he's gotten, though. Also, I think Kongregate might beat us to this. But it may be worth mentioning. The great thing about this idea is that it would catch on fast and have tons of good games eventually but the server maintenance would be something someone would have to do full-time. Marc -- A computer without Windows is like chocolate cake without mustard. -- Unknown -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 12:46:38 2009 From: gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Giles Orr) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 07:46:38 -0500 Subject: parsing HTML with awk or sed In-Reply-To: References: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f13df280902250446t52bf50cah7a4d481fdebf4f0f@mail.gmail.com> > On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, Giles Orr wrote: > >> I'd like to extract the contents of paragraph tags (

        ) from an HTML >> file. ?Don't want anything else, just that - the P tags and what's >> inside them, all other tags and contents not printed. ?Unfortunately, >> some are single line: >> >>

        data

        >> >> and some are multi-line: >> >>

        >> More data >> >>

        >> >> cat filename | sed -n '/

        /,/<\/p>/p' ? works fine on the latter but >> not the former. ?I can catch the former on a separate sweep, but I >> need to get both in one pass. ?Awk is fine too, in fact I'd probably >> prefer it. ?I have a mild aversion to perl, but would use it if >> needed. >> >> Here's an example file (most will be quite simple, similar to this): >> >> >> >> >> photo17 >> >> >> >>

        Photo photo17

        >> >>

        >> Various discussion of what's going on in the photo. >>

        >> >> >> >>
        Photo #photo17
        >>

        Photo © 2001, Giles Orr

        >> >> >> > 2009/2/24 ted leslie : > just remove all \r \n , i.e. bring it together on one long line, > then do a split on

        i.e.

        -> \n

        > and

        -> \n<\p> > and your good to do what you have proposed to do below. > > > -tl > 2009/2/24 Chris F.A. Johnson : > file=FILE.html > sed -e 's|]*>|&\n|' -e 's|]*>|\n&|' "$file" | > ?awk '/

        ]*>/,"") > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? if ( length ) print } ' > Wow, this is one of those things that's blindingly obvious _after_ you've been hit with it: re-arrange the file _before_ you parse it. I was blocked (without ever realizing it) by the unconscious thought that I was parsing/mangling the file already, why do anything to it first? Huge thanks to Ted and Chris. I haven't finished writing the script yet, but now I know I can. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 15:03:55 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:03:55 -0500 Subject: parsing HTML with awk or sed In-Reply-To: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090225150355.GG23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:32:21PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: > I'd like to extract the contents of paragraph tags (

        ) from an HTML > file. Don't want anything else, just that - the P tags and what's > inside them, all other tags and contents not printed. Unfortunately, > some are single line: > >

        data

        > > and some are multi-line: > >

        > More data > >

        And some are:

        stuff

        other stuff

        yet more stuff The

        tag was not required to be closed. Kind of a pain isn't it? -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 15:07:48 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:07:48 -0500 Subject: parsing HTML with awk or sed In-Reply-To: <20090225150355.GG23245-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7@mail.gmail.com> <20090225150355.GG23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090225150748.GA19340@watson-wilson.ca> What if you dumped to plain text via elinks? Would that be easier to work with? -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 21:23:00 2009 From: contact-uc+NVM1kvX9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (I. Khider) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:23:00 -0500 Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: <49A41860.2030108-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> <499DCF9C.8080506@utoronto.ca> <1235099596.11996.59.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1235498914.3842.24.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49A41860.2030108@telly.org> Message-ID: <1235596980.3840.28.camel@khider.homenetwork> Hello Evan, Just an update on the Windows tax and Linux warranty backing. So far the sales team at HP have not confirmed Bob's claim that Hardware Warranty is backed if one installs Linux. But I am sure they will be told eventually. The second part is HP insists I buy the computer with Windows as they are powerless to remove the operating system. I called Microsoft and spoke with a helpful fellow named Storey (who uses Suse linux at home) who showed me the link to the Micorsoft end user license agreement http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/productrefund/hardwarr.mspx and Microsoft legal who must be contacted by fax 1-425-706-7409 Storey said legal would help me deal with HP if the latter refused to remove windows, or would help remove the OS if HP was powerless to do so. With regards to hardware diagnostics, I could switch to Ubuntu to test the wireless devices et al as I have a support contract with Canonical. It is no biggie to operate outside the wonderful world of Windows. Bob quoted $100 for the Windows OS, maybe chump change to you but that's a lot of coffee money to me. ; - ) Sure it's a royal pain to go through this, but someone has gotta clear the way for Linux users. I know of at least one other Linux user who plans to buy an HP laptop in the next couple of months. He should be able to ask for a warranty and removal of Windows without hassle. As long as a Linux customer gets hassle from sales at HP or any corporation, the latter is anti-linux in my books. They may display all sorts of public acts about how nice and Linux friendly they are, but they should be 100% pro Linux or not at all. 50 or 60% or whatever is not good enough. -ib- On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 10:55 -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > I. Khider wrote: > > Richard Weait was super-helpful by introducing me Bob Gobeille who > > works at the HP Open Source Program Office. Bob spoke with the World > > Directory at HP and got them to change the warranty policy on HP > > products for Linux users. This means that HP, like Toshiba, Averatec, > > Asus, et al will fully back their hardware warranty for servicing if > > Linux is installed. Bob informed me that a circular was passed down to > > HP call centre managers to spread the good word for Linux users. > Good to see this is resolving well. Certainly HP as a company was not > completely badmouthing Linux; they appear to have invested > significantly, for instance, in a unique Ubuntu-based netbook user > interface -- http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7556806272.html > > HP servers certainly support Red Hat and SuSE, and their Linux printer > support is the best in the industry. So it was a matter of one arm of HP > that was acting badly. A company-wide complaint would have been not only > pointless but lacking credibility. > > > Of course, Jamon spoiled the victory when he posted about how I can > > get a refund on the Windows OS. (Those Linux users, give 'em an inch > > and they want a kilometer! ) Now I will settle for nothing less than > > complete removal of the Windows OS AND an OS refund with the machine > > upon purchase. > The refund is usually very small, considering the small amount OEMs pay > for their copies (and especially if those copies are subsidized by > pre-loaded trials of antivirus, etc). > > Besides, often companies will put useful hardware diagnostics on their > Windows partitions. If some hardware fails to work under Linux, booting > to Windows is helpful in tracing whether it's a driver or software problem. > > (For instance: a recent kernel update -- 2.6.27-11 -- broke the driver > for the Realtek Ethernet chipset, a very common one in laptops.) > > Certainly booting Windows will help you with the helpdesk... > > If a system doesn't ship with Windows I won't load it. But if it DOES > ship with it I just reduce its partition size to about 6GB, put Linux on > the rest, and set it up for dual boot. Getting the money back in the > past has usually not been worth the hassle and the Windows partition > just might come in handy -- if you already have it. > > > This is great information and I will spread it to other Linux users I > > know to ensure they do not pay the Windows tax. > > If your time has any value at all you'll be paying more than double that > tax to ask for the refund. > > - Evan > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 16:44:45 2009 From: robert-5LEc/6Zm6xCUd8a0hrldnti2O/JbrIOy at public.gmane.org (Robert Brockway) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:44:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: "green" drives and hdparm In-Reply-To: <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78@mail.gmail.com> <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Matt Price wrote: > anyone know much about this? I will use old drives for the os(es) but > hopefully a huge new drive for video. i'd really like to have it The OS is unlikely to take up more than a few GB and there will be relatively little OS related disk activity so I recommend just putting the OS and the media data on the same drive[1]. Running an extra disk just for the OS would be a waste of energy. [1] or set of drives if using RAID. Cheers, Rob -- I tried to change the world but they had a no-return policy -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 17:11:09 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:11:09 -0500 Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: <1235596980.3840.28.camel-egX5H+F/hXEu8BFL9Asa/WHqWbEk1Anr@public.gmane.org> References: <49960F47.3020909@alteeve.com> <3a97ef0902150832m59faca5ct78f6ebad9e423302@mail.gmail.com> <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> <499DCF9C.8080506@utoronto.ca> <1235099596.11996.59.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1235498914.3842.24.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49A41860.2030108@telly.org> <1235596980.3840.28.camel@khider.homenetwork> Message-ID: <49A57BAD.7080700@telly.org> I. Khider wrote: > The second part is HP insists I buy the computer with Windows as they > are powerless to remove the operating system. It' s not a matter of power, it's a matter of volume. HP calculates the price of the system based in part of the work required to make it. Clearly it's more efficient -- and cheaper -- if everything is set up the same way. (This is why pre-built packages are almost always cheaper than systems that you "assemble" on the website.) > With regards to hardware diagnostics, I could switch to Ubuntu to test > the wireless devices et al as I have a support contract with > Canonical. It is no biggie to operate outside the wonderful world of > Windows. Not for you, but it could be a biggie to HP tech support. And if you're giving in a system for warranty repair, they need to use their own tools of choice to determine what's wrong. > Bob quoted $100 for the Windows OS, maybe chump change to you but > that's a lot of coffee money to me. The $100 is closer to a retail price. OEMs pay a LOT less, especially if it's XP rather than Windows. When doing research a few months ago I found OEMs who were paying $45 each -- and even that could be reduced by subsisides from companies (like Symantec) that want to pre-install demo software on every system. And bigger volume buyers such as HP could be paying even less per copy. So if you expect to get back more than $40 or so you're probably dreaming. That's less than three weeks of Starbucks. Which brings me back to my original question... what is your time worth? > Sure it's a royal pain to go through this, but someone has gotta clear > the way for Linux users. I know of at least one other Linux user who > plans to buy an HP laptop in the next couple of months. He should be > able to ask for a warranty and removal of Windows without hassle. That sends NOBODY a useful message and is just painful for all involved. You should be telling your purchaser that HP laptops do not support Windows and that (s)he should be partronizing a vendor that does. It's one thing to be taken by surprise by HP's actions, but now you should know better. Encouraging someone else to make a new HP laptop purchase, KNOWING that HP laptop division is Linux-hostile, is just exceptionally poor consumerism. And your fight against HP will be largely solitary, and as likely as not to be unsuccessful. > As long as a Linux customer gets hassle from sales at HP or any > corporation, the latter is anti-linux in my books. They may display > all sorts of public acts about how nice and Linux friendly they are, > but they should be 100% pro Linux or not at all. 50 or 60% or whatever > is not good enough. So says you. The marketplace does not work that way, however. If people choose to boycott HP printers -- that have fantastic Linux support -- because their laptop division is Linux-hostile, then HP has *less* incentive to support Linux moving forward. In other words, your actions -- if followed by others -- will surely make HP move closer to 0 than to 100%. I prefer more positive strategy. It's more-fullfilling (and easier) to reward the friendly rather than to punish the hostile. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 17:39:16 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:39:16 -0500 Subject: LGPL, GPL, BSD licenses [Was: OSS/Linux Games Programming] Message-ID: <3a97ef0902250939r176abcfco316eac371ecd7c45@mail.gmail.com> One of the things I would eventually like to do is develop some small commercial products. Even if they're just something small and silly like an iPhone game. My initial thoughts would be to have a short closed-source release cycle for the project's core, possibly with a "modding" SDK. Once enough time passes or some form of sustainable revenue cycle emerges, to release to full source (I believe that ID et al did this with some older engines). I know that most Linux/Unix users are fairly against the concept of any non-open software (and one has to be careful with how/what libraries one uses to avoid (L)GPL issues), but how do you all think the concept of a to-be-open release would work? One could even incorporate wording into a new license that basically says the game source would be "liberated" upon certain conditions being met, which would prevent things from becoming like WineX/Cedega. Again, I know a lot of people are against the idea of such things, but in these times it's fairly hard as it is to find time for the projects. Enough money to pay the bills could mean more dedication to the project itself. Actually, one thing I considered also would be to allow source releases for one platform, and binaries for another. Give the windows users binaries and the linux users source (or source for "opened" iphones and binaries for the iTunes store, etc). - TJA On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Herb Richter wrote: >> >> This month's NewTLUG meeting will be held at Seneca College on the YorkU >> campus in room S2168 (SEQ building) - upper kaleidoscope room >> > > I'm sorry that I could not make it out tonight, but here's an email I sent > to Colin that I realize is relevant to the list.. I was hoping to talk about > this with some of you tonight... > > ---- > > What an excellent subject! (The NewTLUG meeting subject) > > I've been thinking about forming or joining an existing "Linux/OSS Gaming > Project" (a group of people interested in programming open-source games) > lately. I'd like to know if there are any LUG members who would be > interested in this as well, or even just forming a small group that would > develop games in their spare time in the hopes that eventually it got big > enough and be like a Sourceforge for games but with more emphasis on > building a community of OSS games programmers that would contribute to each > other's game projects. > > A few days ago I've been playing around with GCCG (http://gccg.sf.net/). I > don't know if you've tried it or will be talking about it but if not maybe I > can offer a few words. It's a general CCG engine; it has a virtual economy > etc. for buying/trading/selling cards-- right now it has servers running 5-6 > games and it's active, meaning there are people playing games on the servers > so you can find people to play with. I haven't looked much into the code yet > but I probably will because I wanted to make such a thing and had started > but never had the time to finish it; now, I'm hoping to use it for a game I > had in mind. > > I also had another idea a while back about an "Open Gaming Site". Sort of > like a completely open/Web 2.0 version of Yahoo Games where anybody can > develop and submit a game for others to play. Like Richard Rognlie's PBEM > server but for games played in real-time. I've had a friend working on this > since I had to bow out due to lack of time.. not sure how far he's gotten, > though. Also, I think Kongregate might beat us to this. But it may be worth > mentioning. The great thing about this idea is that it would catch on fast > and have tons of good games eventually but the server maintenance would be > something someone would have to do full-time. > > > Marc > > -- > A computer without Windows is like chocolate cake without mustard. > ?-- Unknown > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 17:51:20 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:51:20 -0500 Subject: LGPL, GPL, BSD licenses [Was: OSS/Linux Games Programming] In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902250939r176abcfco316eac371ecd7c45-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902250939r176abcfco316eac371ecd7c45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/25/09, Tyler Aviss wrote: > One of the things I would eventually like to do is develop some small > commercial products. Even if they're just something small and silly > like an iPhone game. > My initial thoughts would be to have a short closed-source release > cycle for the project's core, possibly with a "modding" SDK. Once > enough time passes or some form of sustainable revenue cycle emerges, > to release to full source (I believe that ID et al did this with some > older engines). > > I know that most Linux/Unix users are fairly against the concept of > any non-open software (and one has to be careful with how/what > libraries one uses to avoid (L)GPL issues), but how do you all think > the concept of a to-be-open release would work? One could even > incorporate wording into a new license that basically says the game > source would be "liberated" upon certain conditions being met, which > would prevent things from becoming like WineX/Cedega. > > Again, I know a lot of people are against the idea of such things, but > in these times it's fairly hard as it is to find time for the > projects. Enough money to pay the bills could mean more dedication to > the project itself. > > Actually, one thing I considered also would be to allow source > releases for one platform, and binaries for another. Give the windows > users binaries and the linux users source (or source for "opened" > iphones and binaries for the iTunes store, etc). > > - TJA A sort of third route that has been taken by ID Software for their older games is to release the source code under the GPL, but not release the data files. So, want to produce a first person shooter type game, well, the source for some older games is out there, but you will have to come up with your own monster definitions and level descriptions... Colin McGregor > On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Marc Lanctot wrote: >> Herb Richter wrote: >>> >>> This month's NewTLUG meeting will be held at Seneca College on the YorkU >>> campus in room S2168 (SEQ building) - upper kaleidoscope room >>> >> >> I'm sorry that I could not make it out tonight, but here's an email I sent >> to Colin that I realize is relevant to the list.. I was hoping to talk >> about >> this with some of you tonight... >> >> ---- >> >> What an excellent subject! (The NewTLUG meeting subject) >> >> I've been thinking about forming or joining an existing "Linux/OSS Gaming >> Project" (a group of people interested in programming open-source games) >> lately. I'd like to know if there are any LUG members who would be >> interested in this as well, or even just forming a small group that would >> develop games in their spare time in the hopes that eventually it got big >> enough and be like a Sourceforge for games but with more emphasis on >> building a community of OSS games programmers that would contribute to >> each >> other's game projects. >> >> A few days ago I've been playing around with GCCG (http://gccg.sf.net/). I >> don't know if you've tried it or will be talking about it but if not maybe >> I >> can offer a few words. It's a general CCG engine; it has a virtual economy >> etc. for buying/trading/selling cards-- right now it has servers running >> 5-6 >> games and it's active, meaning there are people playing games on the >> servers >> so you can find people to play with. I haven't looked much into the code >> yet >> but I probably will because I wanted to make such a thing and had started >> but never had the time to finish it; now, I'm hoping to use it for a game >> I >> had in mind. >> >> I also had another idea a while back about an "Open Gaming Site". Sort of >> like a completely open/Web 2.0 version of Yahoo Games where anybody can >> develop and submit a game for others to play. Like Richard Rognlie's PBEM >> server but for games played in real-time. I've had a friend working on >> this >> since I had to bow out due to lack of time.. not sure how far he's gotten, >> though. Also, I think Kongregate might beat us to this. But it may be >> worth >> mentioning. The great thing about this idea is that it would catch on fast >> and have tons of good games eventually but the server maintenance would be >> something someone would have to do full-time. >> >> >> Marc >> >> -- >> A computer without Windows is like chocolate cake without mustard. >> -- Unknown >> -- >> The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ >> TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns >> How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists >> > > > > -- > Tyler Aviss > Systems Support > LPIC/LPIC-2 > (647) 302-0942 > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 17:56:00 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:56:00 -0500 Subject: Taking HP to the BBB...? In-Reply-To: <49A57BAD.7080700-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <1234739677.11896.33.camel@khider.homenetwork> <20090219151711.GB7313@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> <1235079999.11996.36.camel@khider.homenetwork> <499DCF9C.8080506@utoronto.ca> <1235099596.11996.59.camel@khider.homenetwork> <1235498914.3842.24.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49A41860.2030108@telly.org> <1235596980.3840.28.camel@khider.homenetwork> <49A57BAD.7080700@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090225175600.GH23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:11:09PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Not for you, but it could be a biggie to HP tech support. And if you're > giving in a system for warranty repair, they need to use their own tools > of choice to determine what's wrong. And are you going to give them the machine with your data on it and your password? They can darn well put in another drive with a known good copy of windows to run their tools. >> Bob quoted $100 for the Windows OS, maybe chump change to you but >> that's a lot of coffee money to me. > The $100 is closer to a retail price. OEMs pay a LOT less, especially if > it's XP rather than Windows. When doing research a few months ago I > found OEMs who were paying $45 each -- and even that could be reduced by > subsisides from companies (like Symantec) that want to pre-install demo > software on every system. And bigger volume buyers such as HP could be > paying even less per copy. > > So if you expect to get back more than $40 or so you're probably > dreaming. That's less than three weeks of Starbucks. > > Which brings me back to my original question... what is your time worth? Certainly a good question. Of course someone has to convince these companies that not everyone wants a machine with windows on it. > That sends NOBODY a useful message and is just painful for all involved. > You should be telling your purchaser that HP laptops do not support > Windows and that (s)he should be partronizing a vendor that does. So which vendors are those currently? > It's one thing to be taken by surprise by HP's actions, but now you > should know better. Encouraging someone else to make a new HP laptop > purchase, KNOWING that HP laptop division is Linux-hostile, is just > exceptionally poor consumerism. And your fight against HP will be > largely solitary, and as likely as not to be unsuccessful. > > So says you. The marketplace does not work that way, however. If people > choose to boycott HP printers -- that have fantastic Linux support -- > because their laptop division is Linux-hostile, then HP has *less* > incentive to support Linux moving forward. In other words, your actions > -- if followed by others -- will surely make HP move closer to 0 than to > 100%. > > I prefer more positive strategy. It's more-fullfilling (and easier) to > reward the friendly rather than to punish the hostile. Certainly true. I will buy Dell LCD monitors (but only the good ones, not the cheap crap ones). I would never dream of buying one of their computers though. Support the good stuff and avoid the crap. If enough people did, then perhaps there would be less crap sold. Of course if everyone was that sensible we wouldn't have spam either since no one would ever have bought anything from a spam message and hence there would be zero profit in spam. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 17:57:00 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:57:00 -0500 Subject: AVCHD (video camera) formatting under Linux Message-ID: <49A5866C.3020500@telly.org> Hello, Does anyone here have any experience converting .mts files (the high def video created by Canon, Sony and other makes -- also known as AVCHD) to to podcast-sized videos (mp4, flv, whatever) using open source tools? I've been trying mencoder and ffmpeg, both with unsatisfying results. They can both read the mts format but produce files that are out of sync and/or missing frames. Some of the web resources talking about this make reference to a package called 'xporthdmv' that I can't seem to find anywhere. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. At very least, are the opinions on ffmpeg vs mencoder for this kind of task? Thanks! - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 17:59:44 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:59:44 -0500 Subject: LGPL, GPL, BSD licenses [Was: OSS/Linux Games Programming] In-Reply-To: References: <3a97ef0902250939r176abcfco316eac371ecd7c45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090225175944.GI23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:51:20PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > A sort of third route that has been taken by ID Software for their > older games is to release the source code under the GPL, but not > release the data files. So, want to produce a first person shooter > type game, well, the source for some older games is out there, but you > will have to come up with your own monster definitions and level > descriptions... So sell the data, but give away the engine. :) After all tis the data that really makes the game. Just look at what different data can do in terms of Quake 3 versus Alice. Same engine, way different game. Of course since ID licenses their game engine, they only give it away when it becomes "obsolete" to some extent and they have a new one they are licensing. No reason to give all the goodies to the competirors too soon after all. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 18:00:34 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:00:34 -0500 Subject: AVCHD (video camera) formatting under Linux In-Reply-To: <49A5866C.3020500-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49A5866C.3020500@telly.org> Message-ID: <20090225180034.GJ23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:57:00PM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Does anyone here have any experience converting .mts files (the high def > video created by Canon, Sony and other makes -- also known as AVCHD) to > to podcast-sized videos (mp4, flv, whatever) using open source tools? > > I've been trying mencoder and ffmpeg, both with unsatisfying results. > They can both read the mts format but produce files that are out of sync > and/or missing frames. > > Some of the web resources talking about this make reference to a package > called 'xporthdmv' that I can't seem to find anywhere. > > Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. At very least, are the opinions > on ffmpeg vs mencoder for this kind of task? Does transcode work any better? No idea really, I have never had to do this. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 18:01:25 2009 From: cbbrowne-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Christopher Browne) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:01:25 -0500 Subject: parsing HTML with awk or sed In-Reply-To: <20090225150355.GG23245-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1f13df280902241932l7ad0f90cu91ea8f5a7a462fa7@mail.gmail.com> <20090225150355.GG23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On 2009-02-25, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:32:21PM -0500, Giles Orr wrote: >> I'd like to extract the contents of paragraph tags (

        ) from an HTML >> file. Don't want anything else, just that - the P tags and what's >> inside them, all other tags and contents not printed. Unfortunately, >> some are single line: >> >>

        data

        >> >> and some are multi-line: >> >>

        >> More data >> >>

        > > And some are: >

        stuff >

        other stuff >

        yet more stuff > > The

        tag was not required to be closed. Kind of a pain isn't it? For that particular reason, I'd suggest running some "tidyer" tool. The one I usually use is the following one... http://www.w3.org/People/Raggett/tidy/ That cleans up the HTML, fixing up misordered end tags, ensuring

        and

        are matched, as well as
      • and
        • , and such. -- http://linuxfinances.info/info/linuxdistributions.html -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 18:02:56 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:02:56 -0500 Subject: LGPL, GPL, BSD licenses [Was: OSS/Linux Games Programming] In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902250939r176abcfco316eac371ecd7c45-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <3a97ef0902250939r176abcfco316eac371ecd7c45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A587D0.9070801@ualberta.ca> Tyler Aviss wrote: > One of the things I would eventually like to do is develop some small > commercial products. Even if they're just something small and silly > like an iPhone game. > My initial thoughts would be to have a short closed-source release > cycle for the project's core, possibly with a "modding" SDK. Once > enough time passes or some form of sustainable revenue cycle emerges, > to release to full source (I believe that ID et al did this with some > older engines). > > I know that most Linux/Unix users are fairly against the concept of > any non-open software (and one has to be careful with how/what > libraries one uses to avoid (L)GPL issues), but how do you all think > the concept of a to-be-open release would work? One could even > incorporate wording into a new license that basically says the game > source would be "liberated" upon certain conditions being met, which > would prevent things from becoming like WineX/Cedega. > > Again, I know a lot of people are against the idea of such things, but > in these times it's fairly hard as it is to find time for the > projects. Enough money to pay the bills could mean more dedication to > the project itself. This doesn't touch on your questions or concerns, but is somewhat relevant and good for you or others to know. Kongregate is an emerging games site that allows players to build and submit games that are hosted on the Kongragate site.. the cool part is that they give you up to 50% of the revenues your game generates from ads. Now, that's incentive to make a game people return to often, and a pretty cool business model! I don't know how well it's working, though, I haven't had time to look into it much.. but it has been getting quite popular. Details at http://www.kongregate.com/pages/earn Marc -- Without requirements or design, programming is the art of adding bugs to an empty text file. -- Louis Srygley -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 18:47:52 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:47:52 -0500 Subject: AVCHD (video camera) formatting under Linux In-Reply-To: <49A5866C.3020500-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49A5866C.3020500@telly.org> Message-ID: <7c50d3570902251047n7b7bfae4pdebf3ddb9b650793@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:57, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hello, > > Does anyone here have any experience converting .mts files (the high def > video created by Canon, Sony and other makes -- also known as AVCHD) to to > podcast-sized videos (mp4, flv, whatever) using open source tools? > > I've been trying mencoder and ffmpeg, both with unsatisfying results. They > can both read the mts format but produce files that are out of sync and/or > missing frames. > > Some of the web resources talking about this make reference to a package > called 'xporthdmv' that I can't seem to find anywhere. > > Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. At very least, are the opinions on > ffmpeg vs mencoder for this kind of task? > > Thanks! > > - Evan http://www.w6rz.net/xport.zip -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 18:51:37 2009 From: mlauzon-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Michael Lauzon) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:51:37 -0500 Subject: AVCHD (video camera) formatting under Linux In-Reply-To: <7c50d3570902251047n7b7bfae4pdebf3ddb9b650793-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <49A5866C.3020500@telly.org> <7c50d3570902251047n7b7bfae4pdebf3ddb9b650793@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c50d3570902251051i486871ffnb62253e725f237f4@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 13:47, Michael Lauzon wrote: > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:57, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Does anyone here have any experience converting .mts files (the high def >> video created by Canon, Sony and other makes -- also known as AVCHD) to to >> podcast-sized videos (mp4, flv, whatever) using open source tools? >> >> I've been trying mencoder and ffmpeg, both with unsatisfying results. They >> can both read the mts format but produce files that are out of sync and/or >> missing frames. >> >> Some of the web resources talking about this make reference to a package >> called 'xporthdmv' that I can't seem to find anywhere. >> >> Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. At very least, are the opinions on >> ffmpeg vs mencoder for this kind of task? >> >> Thanks! >> >> - Evan > > > http://www.w6rz.net/xport.zip Here's a video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIpVNhz7MrA -- Sincerely, Michael Lauzon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 21:56:01 2009 From: jmyshrall-6duGhz7i8susTnJN9+BGXg at public.gmane.org (John Myshrall) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:56:01 -0500 Subject: AVCHD (video camera) formatting under Linux In-Reply-To: <49A5866C.3020500-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org> References: <49A5866C.3020500@telly.org> Message-ID: <49A5BE71.8080900@golden.net> Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Hello, > > Does anyone here have any experience converting .mts files (the high > def video created by Canon, Sony and other makes -- also known as > AVCHD) to to podcast-sized videos (mp4, flv, whatever) using open > source tools? > > I've been trying mencoder and ffmpeg, both with unsatisfying results. > They can both read the mts format but produce files that are out of > sync and/or missing frames. > > Some of the web resources talking about this make reference to a > package called 'xporthdmv' that I can't seem to find anywhere. > > Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. At very least, are the > opinions on ffmpeg vs mencoder for this kind of task? > > Thanks! > > - Evan > > Here is a good article. http://wesleybailey.com/articles/m2tstoavi-avchd I've used this and it works great. You can easily convert to what ever you like from there. I actually converted my neighbors HD movies from his vacation with it. Uncompressed files really take up a lot of space though. I'm currently now trying to figure out the community version "CV" of Cinelerra because I want to edit in HD then covert if necessary http://cvs.cinelerra.org/ HTH John -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 22:52:03 2009 From: opengeometry-FFYn/CNdgSA at public.gmane.org (William Park) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:52:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: parsing HTML with awk or sed In-Reply-To: <20090225150355.GG23245-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <20090225150355.GG23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <881717.8418.qm@web110808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > > some are single line: > > > >

        data

        > > > > and some are multi-line: > > > >

        > > More data > > > >

        > > And some are: >

        stuff >

        other stuff >

        yet more stuff Your main problem is determining the end of P tag. If it's terminated with

        , then there are many ways to cut/slice your file. If it's not terminated, then find ways to terminate it. --William __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Wed Feb 25 23:29:16 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:29:16 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? Message-ID: Last evening I went out to talk about Linux Games at the Seneca NewTLUG meeting... What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad ... very sad ... More to the point, this isn't the first time I've done a Seneca talk, where the total peak attendance was under 5 people. I am happy enough to help, preparing talks, etc., as I am currently looking for a new job, I have the time at present. But, not much point in doing the talk prep. work when I can count my audience on the fingers of one hand, and have fingers left over... The January meeting at IBM had over 20 people show up (which was a reasonable enough crowd), this month it was 3 ... So, how do we fix this? We could: - Have all NewTLUG meetings at IBM (but this could be hard on Paul Mora). - Not have meetings when there is an issue with IBM - Find better ways to promote Seneca as a meeting location - Find better public speakers than me - Find another venue when IBM isn't available - None of the above? Ideas, suggestions? Thanks Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From dgardiner0821-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 00:46:46 2009 From: dgardiner0821-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (Daniel Gardiner) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:46:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <314592.44807.qm@web88205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Colin McGregor wrote: Last evening I went out to talk about Linux Games at the Seneca NewTLUG meeting... What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad ... very sad ... More to the point, this isn't the first time I've done a Seneca talk, where the total peak attendance was under 5 people. I am happy enough to help, preparing talks, etc., as I am currently looking for a new job, I have the time at present. But, not much point in doing the talk prep. work when I can count my audience on the fingers of one hand, and have fingers left over... The January meeting at IBM had over 20 people show up (which was a reasonable enough crowd), this month it was 3 ... So, how do we fix this? We could: - Have all NewTLUG meetings at IBM (but this could be hard on Paul Mora). - Not have meetings when there is an issue with IBM - Find better ways to promote Seneca as a meeting location - Find better public speakers than me - Find another venue when IBM isn't available - None of the above? Ideas, suggestions? Thanks Colin McGregor I'd suggest first asking people why they are not attending (and what could get them out to meetings) and then look for suggestions on how to address the issues.? Perhaps start with a poll / survey on the website?? I notice that the page at http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/NewTLUG_meetings wasn't updated for last night's meeting, that might have been a contributing factor. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 01:05:25 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:05:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: | From: Colin McGregor | What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad Thanks for giving the talk. One datapoint: I rarely go the NewTLUG. When it is at IBM, you need to commit a day ahead. That is some kind of psychological barrier for me. I also would prefer if the venue were closer, but that is silly too because the drive would take less time than the transit to TLUG. I am such a penny-pincher that I find the York University parking charges disuade me. TTC doesn't get me to York efficiently. In this particular case, I should admit that I never play games so I didn't need to hear the talk. In theory, downtown talks are more technical and hence more often of interest to me. | - Have all NewTLUG meetings at IBM (but this could be hard on Paul Mora). Is it the case that meetings at IBM are better attended than meetings at Seneca at York? Perhaps the parking fees are a problem. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 01:46:05 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:46:05 -0500 Subject: onboard flash? In-Reply-To: References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78@mail.gmail.com> <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1235612765.11121.4169.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 11:44 -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Matt Price wrote: > > > anyone know much about this? I will use old drives for the os(es) but > > hopefully a huge new drive for video. i'd really like to have it > > The OS is unlikely to take up more than a few GB and there will be > relatively little OS related disk activity so I recommend just putting the > OS and the media data on the same drive[1]. Running an extra disk just > for the OS would be a waste of energy. > > [1] or set of drives if using RAID. > thanks rob, i hadn't thought of it that way. hmm, i wonder if it'd be worthwhile to run the os off of some kind of flash memory. haven't even checked lately, is it now possible to run linux off of onboard flash? do lots of MB's have onboard flash now? need to check that out... m > Cheers, > > Rob > -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 02:14:25 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:14:25 -0500 Subject: onboard flash? In-Reply-To: <1235612765.11121.4169.camel@localhost> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78@mail.gmail.com> <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> <1235612765.11121.4169.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3a97ef0902251814r49d9477eya9aeb8d602a4ac05@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Matt Price wrote: > > > On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 11:44 -0500, Robert Brockway wrote: >> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Matt Price wrote: >> >> > anyone know much about this? ?I will use old drives for the os(es) but >> > hopefully a huge new drive for video. ?i'd really like to have it >> >> The OS is unlikely to take up more than a few GB and there will be >> relatively little OS related disk activity so I recommend just putting the >> OS and the media data on the same drive[1]. ?Running an extra disk just >> for the OS would be a waste of energy. >> >> [1] or set of drives if using RAID. >> > > thanks rob, i hadn't thought of it that way. ?hmm, i wonder if it'd be > worthwhile to run the os off of some kind of flash memory. ?haven't even > checked lately, is it now possible to run linux off of onboard flash? > do lots of MB's have onboard flash now? ?need to check that out... > > m > >> Cheers, >> >> Rob >> > -- > Matt Price > matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > Some of the VIA and Jetway mini-ITX boards do. For others you can use a CF->IDE adaptor (for boards that still support IDE drives). Not sure if there's a CF->SATA adaptor. You have to be careful with the adaptors. A lot are intended for laptop-sized connectors (in which case you might have to use an adaptor for that too) and others plug right into the IDE channel rather than the cable, in which case the combined size of adaptor+card might not fit in your chassis. -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 02:35:46 2009 From: cinetron-uEvt2TsIf2EsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (jim) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:35:46 -0500 Subject: UK government backs open source Message-ID: <1235615746.31827.4.camel@jims-laptop> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7910110.stm -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 03:07:54 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:07:54 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: > Last evening I went out to talk about Linux Games at the Seneca > NewTLUG meeting... What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad > ... very sad ... More to the point, this isn't the first time I've > done a Seneca talk, where the total peak attendance was under 5 > people. > [...] > Ideas, suggestions? I really wanted to make it out last night and couldn't so now I feel especially bad that I didn't. If you prepared slides could you send them to me? - What is NewTLUG and how is it different than TLUG? - Herb sent out the reminder 2 days before the meeting.. that's not a lot of time to plan for it. I'd recommend 4-5 days, even a week. And maybe a 2-day-before reminder. - I'm guessing the set of people interested in games and set of people interested in Linux don't have a large intersection. I'm one of the few in there.. but throw in the following and it gets even harder... - York is out of the way. I was stuck downtown until 7ish.. so going home and then taking the car to York after a long day did not appeal to me, especially since I was going to miss most of the meeting. Add 401+400 traffic and paying for parking.. it's just not fun. If the meeting was near or at UofT, or along a subway line I could have attended and probably made it on time. - If location is a problem I can look into using some rooms at UofT.. (we can do half/half with IBM maybe?) that could be "the other venue". I've had to book rooms for other stuff before and being a grad student that kind of thing is easy to do. Let me know if you're interested. In passing, where is IBM? - If you're willing to re-give your talk I would be very grateful :-p I very much wanted to hear it! I'm totally up for discussion on gaming in Linux. And then you won't have to prepare anything and you'll have a bigger audience! Marc -- Without requirements or design, programming is the art of adding bugs to an empty text file. -- Louis Srygley -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 15:53:23 2009 From: jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org (jvetterli-Rn4VEauK+AKRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f at public.gmane.org) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:53:23 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would have loved to come out to your games talk -- I've been looking for some good games that will run on my machine. Unfortunately, I typically don't leave work until 7:00pm, and I'm coming from the west end of Mississauga, so I wouldn't have arrived until 7:45~ish. JV On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 06:29:16PM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > Last evening I went out to talk about Linux Games at the Seneca > NewTLUG meeting... What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad > ... very sad ... More to the point, this isn't the first time I've > done a Seneca talk, where the total peak attendance was under 5 > people. > ... > So, how do we fix this? ... Ideas, suggestions? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 16:33:25 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:33:25 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/25/09, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Colin McGregor > > | What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad > > Thanks for giving the talk. Thanks [snip] > | - Have all NewTLUG meetings at IBM (but this could be hard on Paul Mora). > > Is it the case that meetings at IBM are better attended than meetings > at Seneca at York? Perhaps the parking fees are a problem. Yes, the meetings at IBM are typically 20-30 people, the Seneca meetings seem to normally be 2-10 people. Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 16:53:45 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:53:45 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: <49A6078A.6060204-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On 2/25/09, Marc Lanctot wrote: > Colin McGregor wrote: >> Last evening I went out to talk about Linux Games at the Seneca >> NewTLUG meeting... What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad >> ... very sad ... More to the point, this isn't the first time I've >> done a Seneca talk, where the total peak attendance was under 5 >> people. >> > > [...] > >> Ideas, suggestions? > > I really wanted to make it out last night and couldn't so now I feel > especially bad that I didn't. If you prepared slides could you send them > to me? After a presentation I want to include things I learned from the audience, so give me a bit... > - What is NewTLUG and how is it different than TLUG? NewTLUG was traditionally the new user meeting, things have seemingly evolved to where NewTLUG is in practice the suburban user group, while TLUG is the downtown group... > - Herb sent out the reminder 2 days before the meeting.. that's not a > lot of time to plan for it. I'd recommend 4-5 days, even a week. And > maybe a 2-day-before reminder. > > - I'm guessing the set of people interested in games and set of people > interested in Linux don't have a large intersection. I'm one of the few > in there.. but throw in the following and it gets even harder... > > - York is out of the way. I was stuck downtown until 7ish.. so going > home and then taking the car to York after a long day did not appeal to > me, especially since I was going to miss most of the meeting. Add > 401+400 traffic and paying for parking.. it's just not fun. If the > meeting was near or at UofT, or along a subway line I could have > attended and probably made it on time. > > - If location is a problem I can look into using some rooms at UofT.. > (we can do half/half with IBM maybe?) that could be "the other venue". > I've had to book rooms for other stuff before and being a grad student > that kind of thing is easy to do. Let me know if you're interested. In > passing, where is IBM? At the January meeting one of the questions that was asked was why not have the meetings downtown? My answer was that while I don't know why it is there seems to be a suburban/downtown split, many people who go to one meeting will not go to the other. Then I tossed the question out to the 20+ people who were there "How many would not have attended the meeting if it had been downtown?". About 3/4 of the people raised their hands... So, because of suburbanits who will not come downtown there is a need for meetings out on the edge of the city, but we need (a) location(s) people will go to. Put another way, U of T is a fantastic venue, but it is in the wrong part of the city for NewTLUG purposes... When we meet at IBM, it is the IBM office on the north east corner of Steeles and Pharmacy. > - If you're willing to re-give your talk I would be very grateful :-p I > very much wanted to hear it! I'm totally up for discussion on gaming in > Linux. And then you won't have to prepare anything and you'll have a > bigger audience! Well, I would have to rework (slightly) what I did for this past Tuesday... > Marc > > -- > Without requirements or design, programming is the art of adding bugs > to an empty text file. > -- Louis Srygley Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 17:31:56 2009 From: lanctot-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Marc Lanctot) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:31:56 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49A6D20C.9040200@ualberta.ca> Colin McGregor wrote: > At the January meeting one of the questions that was asked was why not > have the meetings downtown? My answer was that while I don't know why > it is there seems to be a suburban/downtown split, many people who go > to one meeting will not go to the other. Then I tossed the question > out to the 20+ people who were there "How many would not have attended > the meeting if it had been downtown?". About 3/4 of the people raised > their hands... > > So, because of suburbanits who will not come downtown there is a need > for meetings out on the edge of the city, but we need (a) location(s) > people will go to. Put another way, U of T is a fantastic venue, but > it is in the wrong part of the city for NewTLUG purposes... > > When we meet at IBM, it is the IBM office on the north east corner of > Steeles and Pharmacy. Yeah someone explained to me several months ago and after living in Toronto I now see why; it's just seems easier to either a) stay in the main part of the city and use the subway or b) stay in the GTA and travel by car.. crossing that line seems to add pain and frustration. The problem is still that the GTA is so **** huge (geographically) on its own that even York is "far" for people living in, say, Scarborough or Mississauga. Personally, I avoid driving as much as I can in Toronto. I'm sure this is an old discussion, so I'll just attempt to end it with "has anybody ever proposed a compromise"? Like meeting along a north/south subway along say around 401 like Yorkdale or Yonge/401? Somewhere you don't have to take another bus after. I'm assuming there's no good place to meet there.. I think your claims on attendance are really due to the subject. There just aren't many people interested in Linux & Games (unfortunately). Maybe your January meeting would have attracted downtowners to make up for the lost 3/4 of the suburbanites that you mention. In summary, Toronto is too vast. We need quantum teleportation. :) I promise I'll make it to the next NewTLUG if I'm in town and there's sufficient notice (>= 5 days). I've been meaning to go to both meetings because I haven't met anybody here yet... Marc -- If you want to accomplish something in the world, idealism is not enough-- you need to choose a method that works to achieve the goal. In other words, you need to be "pragmatic." -- Richard Stallman -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 18:05:43 2009 From: william.ohiggins-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (William O'Higgins Witteman) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:05:43 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: <49A6D20C.9040200-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> <49A6D20C.9040200@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20090226180543.GA1863@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:31:56PM -0500, Marc Lanctot wrote: > In summary, Toronto is too vast. We need quantum teleportation. :) We have quantum teleportation - the problem is that it requires a lot of energy, really small passengers and you can't get very far. It is much less usable than Windows. I'd rather walk. -- yours, William -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 19:47:41 2009 From: hugh-pmF8o41NoarQT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:47:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: <49A6D20C.9040200-yfeSBMgouQgsA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> <49A6D20C.9040200@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: | From: Marc Lanctot | I'm sure this is an old discussion, so I'll just attempt to end it with "has | anybody ever proposed a compromise"? Like meeting along a north/south subway | along say around 401 like Yorkdale or Yonge/401? Somewhere you don't have to | take another bus after. I'm assuming there's no good place to meet there.. TLUG first met in such a place (in the mid 1990s): the North York Memorial Hall. It is in the same building as the North York Central Library and next to the old North York City Hall. The North York City Centre stop on the Yonge subway line is right there. Parking is free after 18:00 if you know where to find it (side streets a block or two away). The rooms cost money but I don't know how much. It is possible to rent rooms from the library as well. The Asterisk Users Group holds meetings in the old City Hall. Again, those committee rooms surely cost money. I don't know where that money comes from since there are no membership dues. So I guess that the sticking point is funding. I think that it is wonderful that York and IBM have been providing free space. I'd even like to think that holding meetings at York would cause more students to get involved. I have the impression that this isn't the case -- is there a way to fix that? Is there a York CS club? Could they they join in? That would surely change the nature of the meetings but that might be a good thing. The same could be said about U of T. I don't really notice a large student contingent at TLUG. Sad that we're mostly a bunch of old timers (like me!). -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 20:19:56 2009 From: tjaviss-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Tyler Aviss) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:19:56 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a97ef0902261219m3ae06af5v987b66a891a8d142@mail.gmail.com> Oddly, I got one of the responses to this (titled: OSS/Linux Games Programming), but I never got the initial announcement. It's not in my SPAM box either, and I don't think gmail bins emails without sending them there first...? On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Last evening I went out to talk about Linux Games at the Seneca > NewTLUG meeting... What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad > ... very sad ... More to the point, this isn't the first time I've > done a Seneca talk, where the total peak attendance was under 5 > people. > > I am happy enough to help, preparing talks, etc., as I am currently > looking for a new job, I have the time at present. But, not much point > in doing the talk prep. work when I can count my audience on the > fingers of one hand, and have fingers left over... The January meeting > at IBM had over 20 people show up (which was a reasonable enough > crowd), this month it was 3 ... > > So, how do we fix this? We could: > > - Have all NewTLUG meetings at IBM (but this could be hard on Paul Mora). > - Not have meetings when there is an issue with IBM > - Find better ways to promote Seneca as a meeting location > - Find better public speakers than me > - Find another venue when IBM isn't available > - None of the above? > > Ideas, suggestions? > > Thanks > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- Tyler Aviss Systems Support LPIC/LPIC-2 (647) 302-0942 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 16:43:00 2009 From: matt-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (G. Matthew Rice) Date: 26 Feb 2009 11:43:00 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe just ask for RSVPs and say that we won't have the meeting for under 5? Colin McGregor writes: > Last evening I went out to talk about Linux Games at the Seneca > NewTLUG meeting... What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad > ... very sad ... More to the point, this isn't the first time I've > done a Seneca talk, where the total peak attendance was under 5 > people. > > I am happy enough to help, preparing talks, etc., as I am currently > looking for a new job, I have the time at present. But, not much point > in doing the talk prep. work when I can count my audience on the > fingers of one hand, and have fingers left over... The January meeting > at IBM had over 20 people show up (which was a reasonable enough > crowd), this month it was 3 ... > > So, how do we fix this? We could: > > - Have all NewTLUG meetings at IBM (but this could be hard on Paul Mora). > - Not have meetings when there is an issue with IBM > - Find better ways to promote Seneca as a meeting location > - Find better public speakers than me > - Find another venue when IBM isn't available > - None of the above? > > Ideas, suggestions? > > Thanks > > Colin McGregor > -- g. matthew rice starnix care, toronto, ontario, ca phone: 647.722.5301 x242 gpg id: EF9AAD20 http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 21:24:55 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:24:55 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> <49A6D20C.9040200@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49A708A7.3050207@utoronto.ca> D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Marc Lanctot > > | I'm sure this is an old discussion, so I'll just attempt to end it with "has > | anybody ever proposed a compromise"? Like meeting along a north/south subway > | along say around 401 like Yorkdale or Yonge/401? Somewhere you don't have to > | take another bus after. I'm assuming there's no good place to meet there.. > > TLUG first met in such a place (in the mid 1990s): the North York > Memorial Hall. It is in the same building as the North York Central > Library and next to the old North York City Hall. The North York City > Centre stop on the Yonge subway line is right there. > > Parking is free after 18:00 if you know where to find it (side streets > a block or two away). > > The rooms cost money but I don't know how much. > > It is possible to rent rooms from the library as well. > > The Asterisk Users Group holds meetings in the old City Hall. Again, > those committee rooms surely cost money. I don't know where that > money comes from since there are no membership dues. > > So I guess that the sticking point is funding. What are membership fees for again? Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 21:42:14 2009 From: el.fontanero-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Mike) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:42:14 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: > So, because of suburbanits who will not come downtown ... "Suburbanits"... Is this a cool modern pejorative with which I was previously unfamiliar, or was it a 'Freudian slur'? :-) Cheers, ML -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Thu Feb 26 21:47:22 2009 From: jamon.camisso-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Jamon Camisso) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:47:22 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49A70DEA.2030204@utoronto.ca> Mike wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Colin McGregor wrote: >> So, because of suburbanits who will not come downtown ... > > "Suburbanits"... Is this a cool modern pejorative with which I was > previously unfamiliar, or was it a 'Freudian slur'? Perhaps he meant suburbanitis :p Jamon -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 04:27:55 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:27:55 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> <49A6D20C.9040200@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On 2/26/09, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > I think that it is wonderful that York and IBM have been providing > free space. Small correction here, Seneca College owns two buildings on the York University campus. We get meeting space from IBM and Seneca College (on York University campus). > I'd even like to think that holding meetings at York would cause more > students to get involved. I have the impression that this isn't the > case -- is there a way to fix that? Is there a York CS club? Could > they they join in? That would surely change the nature of the > meetings but that might be a good thing. > > The same could be said about U of T. I don't really notice a large > student contingent at TLUG. Sad that we're mostly a bunch of old > timers (like me!). The question I guess is, how aware are Seneca College, U of T, York and even much of IBM that we exist? Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 15:31:42 2009 From: edchin99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (edward chin) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:31:42 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8369b0fa0902270731k47fc15behb273eceaa93897e6@mail.gmail.com> I believe parking is the main issue. On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Colin McGregor wrote: > Last evening I went out to talk about Linux Games at the Seneca > NewTLUG meeting... What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad > ... very sad ... More to the point, this isn't the first time I've > done a Seneca talk, where the total peak attendance was under 5 > people. > > I am happy enough to help, preparing talks, etc., as I am currently > looking for a new job, I have the time at present. But, not much point > in doing the talk prep. work when I can count my audience on the > fingers of one hand, and have fingers left over... The January meeting > at IBM had over 20 people show up (which was a reasonable enough > crowd), this month it was 3 ... > > So, how do we fix this? We could: > > - Have all NewTLUG meetings at IBM (but this could be hard on Paul Mora). > - Not have meetings when there is an issue with IBM > - Find better ways to promote Seneca as a meeting location > - Find better public speakers than me > - Find another venue when IBM isn't available > - None of the above? > > Ideas, suggestions? > > Thanks > > Colin McGregor > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. ? ? ?Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 16:05:59 2009 From: colin.mc151-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Colin McGregor) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:05:59 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: <8369b0fa0902270731k47fc15behb273eceaa93897e6-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <8369b0fa0902270731k47fc15behb273eceaa93897e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/27/09, edward chin wrote: > I believe parking is the main issue. Okay, well as someone who doesn't normally drive, I assume you mean the price of parking is the issue in your view (as there is a large un-crowded parking garage across the street from the building where we meet). So if this is the issue, then to fix this we need a location that has: - Free or very cheap parking close to the site (for the drivers on this list, what is an acceptable price for parking? As in, if we see a potential alternative to IBM, what price tag would rule out a site based on parking charges?). Based on the relative success of IBM as a location , the following characteristics seem to be important (and how IBM meets the characteristics): - Near the edge of Toronto (IBM is southern edge of Markham). - Car friendly, with lots of free (or very cheap) parking and easy to drive to, near major highway(s) (IBM offers free parking, and is close to highway 404). - Free or very cheap room that can deal with 20+ people (the IBM classrooms can deal with this size crowd easily). - Easy to get to by TTC (a bus from Finch station will drop you off across the street from IBM). Other thoughts? Colin McGregor > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Colin McGregor > wrote: >> Last evening I went out to talk about Linux Games at the Seneca >> NewTLUG meeting... What can I say, the turnout was to be polite, sad >> ... very sad ... More to the point, this isn't the first time I've >> done a Seneca talk, where the total peak attendance was under 5 >> people. >> >> I am happy enough to help, preparing talks, etc., as I am currently >> looking for a new job, I have the time at present. But, not much point >> in doing the talk prep. work when I can count my audience on the >> fingers of one hand, and have fingers left over... The January meeting >> at IBM had over 20 people show up (which was a reasonable enough >> crowd), this month it was 3 ... >> >> So, how do we fix this? We could: >> >> - Have all NewTLUG meetings at IBM (but this could be hard on Paul Mora). >> - Not have meetings when there is an issue with IBM >> - Find better ways to promote Seneca as a meeting location >> - Find better public speakers than me >> - Find another venue when IBM isn't available >> - None of the above? >> >> Ideas, suggestions? >> >> Thanks >> >> Colin McGregor -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 20:46:43 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:46:43 -0500 Subject: onboard flash? In-Reply-To: <3a97ef0902251814r49d9477eya9aeb8d602a4ac05-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78@mail.gmail.com> <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> <1235612765.11121.4169.camel@localhost> <3a97ef0902251814r49d9477eya9aeb8d602a4ac05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090227204643.GK23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:14:25PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: > Some of the VIA and Jetway mini-ITX boards do. For others you can use > a CF->IDE adaptor (for boards that still support IDE drives). Not sure > if there's a CF->SATA adaptor. CF->IDE->SATA might work. Gets silly though. -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 20:47:58 2009 From: lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:47:58 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: <8369b0fa0902270731k47fc15behb273eceaa93897e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090227204758.GL23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:05:59AM -0500, Colin McGregor wrote: > Okay, well as someone who doesn't normally drive, I assume you mean > the price of parking is the issue in your view (as there is a large > un-crowded parking garage across the street from the building where we > meet). So if this is the issue, then to fix this we need a location > that has: > > - Free or very cheap parking close to the site (for the drivers on > this list, what is an acceptable price for parking? As in, if we see a > potential alternative to IBM, what price tag would rule out a site > based on parking charges?). > > Based on the relative success of IBM as a location , the following > characteristics seem to be important (and how IBM meets the > characteristics): > > - Near the edge of Toronto (IBM is southern edge of Markham). > - Car friendly, with lots of free (or very cheap) parking and easy to > drive to, near major highway(s) (IBM offers free parking, and is close > to highway 404). > - Free or very cheap room that can deal with 20+ people (the IBM > classrooms can deal with this size crowd easily). > - Easy to get to by TTC (a bus from Finch station will drop you off > across the street from IBM). > > Other thoughts? Not on tuesday and thursday so I could actually consider coming to a meeting ever? :) -- Len Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 20:48:44 2009 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:48:44 -0500 Subject: icecast2 server Message-ID: <200902271548.44738.mervc@eol.ca> Hi I was wondering if there is anyone here running this audio server. My problems are really with generating the streams. ices2 is supposed to work without much trouble but I need scripting help to generate the playlists. Darkice has advantages but I haven't figured out the ALSA device name that it wants to see. I just wasn't sure if this was something to clutter up the list with since it is of limited interest I assume. Cheers -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.10 KMail 1.9.9 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 21:04:31 2009 From: tlug-neil-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q at public.gmane.org (Neil Watson) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:04:31 -0500 Subject: icecast2 server In-Reply-To: <200902271548.44738.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200902271548.44738.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <20090227210431.GB11747@watson-wilson.ca> Is your goal to stream to multiple locations or pull a single stream upon request? I tried Icecast long ago but abandoned after being unsuccessful. I only wanted something I could query and stream for personal use so I went with gnump3d instead. -- Neil Watson UNIX Consultant http://watson-wilson.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 21:18:39 2009 From: richard-gNTHUr35LhcAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Richard Weait) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:18:39 -0500 Subject: Presentations and presenters Message-ID: <1235769519.5402.45.camel@leon> Dear all, As mentioned at the February meeting, Colin McGregor and I are the current talks coordination committee. We believe, and the February attendees concurred that having a speaker and topic lined up in advance for a meeting or two is a Good Thing. For that to happen we need a few things to intersect. Namely, a volunteer speaker, a compelling topic, and the time and motivation to put the abstract on the TLUG web site. You can help with all of these things. 0. Ideally, you have expertise in a compelling topic, a prepared presentation and you want to deliver a talk at our next meeting. Are you a capable and comfortable presenter as well, with an easy sense of humour and a natural presentation delivery? You should let us know. Really. Let's be more practical now. What if you don't consider yourself to be that charming and entertaining Unicorn of a prepared presenter? You can still help. Do these things: 1. Suggest a topic that you would like to attend. You may hit on a popular and compelling topic and inspire one of our members to offer to present. 2. Suggest a speaker who you would like to have at TLUG. Do you know an expert in a FLOSS software package who is not a TLUG member? Perhaps an amazing illustrator who uses Inkscape and Scribus? Those would make great talks, even if, or perhaps because, the presenter is not a programmer. 3. Think again about what would interest you in a presentation topic. Have you done something recently that took more time than it might have, had the task been illustrated at a previous meeting? Turn that in to a talk for TLUG that will save time for us when we have to perform that task. We want more voices to be heard at TLUG and more perspectives. Best regards, Richard -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 21:42:15 2009 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:42:15 -0500 Subject: icecast2 server In-Reply-To: <20090227210431.GB11747-8agRmHhQ+n2CxnSzwYWP7Q@public.gmane.org> References: <200902271548.44738.mervc@eol.ca> <20090227210431.GB11747@watson-wilson.ca> Message-ID: <200902271642.15117.mervc@eol.ca> On Friday 27 February 2009, Neil Watson wrote: > Is your goal to stream to multiple locations or pull a single stream > upon request? I tried Icecast long ago but abandoned after being > unsuccessful. I only wanted something I could query and stream for > personal use so I went with gnump3d instead. Well I have some 16 GB of CD's on a hard drive. Since there are several computers in the house along with one on the hi-fi system, I thought I would like to just leave music running and be able to listen to it, where ever I was in the mansion. Darkice supposedly streams from the audio card so that means I could have my music, web radio, anything I can listen to, on the server computer. Ices2 streams from playlists, which for me are impossible to generate due to trying to generate items from long pathnames. Since I have no experience in this field and help for setting icecast2 up suddenly appeared, I thought I would try it. I'll look at gnump3d, but all my files are encoded in .ogg format. So yes I guess I want to stream to multiple locations. Thanks for the response and a pointer to something else. regards -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.10 KMail 1.9.9 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Fri Feb 27 22:02:13 2009 From: psema4-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Scott Elcomb) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:02:13 -0500 Subject: icecast2 server In-Reply-To: <200902271642.15117.mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ@public.gmane.org> References: <200902271548.44738.mervc@eol.ca> <20090227210431.GB11747@watson-wilson.ca> <200902271642.15117.mervc@eol.ca> Message-ID: <99a6c38f0902271402n203d1e10t66356406651d84fc@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Merv Curley wrote: > On Friday 27 February 2009, Neil Watson wrote: >> Is your goal to stream to multiple locations or pull a single stream >> upon request? ?I tried Icecast long ago but abandoned after being >> unsuccessful. ?I only wanted something I could query and stream for >> personal use so I went with gnump3d instead. > > Well I have some 16 GB of CD's on a hard drive. ?Since there are several > computers in the house along with one on the hi-fi system, I thought I would > like to just leave music running and be able to listen to it, where ever I > was in the mansion. Sockso might be an alternative. I tried it briefly when it came on a recent LFX coverdisc (last month?) and was rather impressed with the implemetation. Summary from the home page: "Sockso is a free, open-source, personal music server for everyone! It's designed to be as simple as possible so that anyone with a mouse and some mp3's can get their friends listening to their music across the internet in seconds!" http://sockso.pu-gh.com/ -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 01:07:34 2009 From: mervc-MwcKTmeKVNQ at public.gmane.org (Merv Curley) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:07:34 -0500 Subject: icecast2 server In-Reply-To: <99a6c38f0902271402n203d1e10t66356406651d84fc-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> References: <200902271548.44738.mervc@eol.ca> <200902271642.15117.mervc@eol.ca> <99a6c38f0902271402n203d1e10t66356406651d84fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902272007.34801.mervc@eol.ca> On Friday 27 February 2009, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > "Sockso is a free, open-source, personal music server for everyone! > It's designed to be as simple as possible so that anyone with a mouse > and some mp3's can get their friends listening to their music across > the internet in seconds!" > > http://sockso.pu-gh.com/ Thanks Scott, the home page is encouraging, now to find some documentation. Even forums setup for help. Nice. have a good weekend. Cheers -- Merv Curley Toronto, Ont. Can Debian Sid Linux Desktop KDE 3.5.10 KMail 1.9.9 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 03:22:18 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:22:18 -0500 Subject: onboard flash? In-Reply-To: <20090227204643.GK23245-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78@mail.gmail.com> <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> <1235612765.11121.4169.camel@localhost> <3a97ef0902251814r49d9477eya9aeb8d602a4ac05@mail.gmail.com> <20090227204643.GK23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <1235791338.24605.193.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 15:46 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:14:25PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: > > Some of the VIA and Jetway mini-ITX boards do. For others you can use > > a CF->IDE adaptor (for boards that still support IDE drives). Not sure > > if there's a CF->SATA adaptor. > > CF->IDE->SATA might work. Gets silly though. > i'll look into this -- meant to write earlier to say thanks, but forgot. so thanks! matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 03:24:42 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:24:42 -0500 Subject: xine sound crippled In-Reply-To: <499F91FE.1020508-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <499F91FE.1020508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902272224.43061.amarjan@pobox.com> On February 21, 2009 12:32:46 am Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Some here are good in these multimedia things. I am not. > > I like watching movies from Google Movies. I intercept them and save > from web browser cache and then try to use xine to play. > > Movies are displayed properly when viewed in web browser window (flash), > with sound played properly also. > > However, some movies, while video plays properly, have problem with > sound, when I try to play later a copy from a stored file. > > This is definitely a problem of xine and/or audio codecs. > > Why I know this? Because I installed a newest version of xine and after > that some movies that played sound properly with older version had > problem to play properly sound with newer version. While some movies > that could not play the sound properly with older version, now do not > play well with newer version. > > The sound does exist but it is so crippled that it is very hard to > understand it. > > All this is very frustrating. How to approach the problem? > > zb. > I've had problems lately with libxine and sound synchronization on all sorts of video files. The longer the video, the more likely it is to go out of sync, though it's more related to time spent in playback than to file length. I haven't bothered to debug it because mplayer works. Over the years I've found the mplayer engine to be more robust on the whole than xine, even though libxine-based media players tend to be much nicer than mplayer. Also mplayer will occasionally screw up the aspect ratio (IIRC fixable through commandline options), but I've almost never had it fail to play a file. Even the really nasty ones that have been transcoded umpteen times and only barely work on Windows Media Player with an unholy amount of CPU. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 03:27:30 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:27:30 -0500 Subject: tomato-compatible wireless routers? Message-ID: <1235791650.24605.214.camel@localhost> I run my home network off of a linksys WRT54G, on which I've installed tomato/MLPPP firmware. I love the firmware upgrade -- my router's a real computer now! -- but this is the second wrt54g i've had (the first one was, ironically, a newer model, and i couldn't run tomato on it) and both have had pretty flaky hardware: on one the wireless network drops out all the time, which is really annoying, and on the other one the uplink drops out, which is, well, also really annoying. Flashing firmware has had no effect on these properties. Anyway, I wondered if anyone else had had experience with other tomato-compatible routers -- am thinking about buying a new one but won't do it if i can't flash the firmware, and for now at least i'm dead set against the wrt's, unless other people have had uniformly good experience with them... thanks as always, matt -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 04:11:16 2009 From: softquake-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Zbigniew Koziol) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:11:16 -0500 Subject: xine sound crippled In-Reply-To: <200902272224.43061.amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <499F91FE.1020508@gmail.com> <200902272224.43061.amarjan@pobox.com> Message-ID: <49A8B964.2010702@gmail.com> Andrej Marjan wrote: > On February 21, 2009 12:32:46 am Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > >> Some here are good in these multimedia things. I am not. >> >> I like watching movies from Google Movies. I intercept them and save >> from web browser cache and then try to use xine to play. >> >> Movies are displayed properly when viewed in web browser window (flash), >> with sound played properly also. >> >> However, some movies, while video plays properly, have problem with >> sound, when I try to play later a copy from a stored file. >> >> This is definitely a problem of xine and/or audio codecs. >> >> Why I know this? Because I installed a newest version of xine and after >> that some movies that played sound properly with older version had >> problem to play properly sound with newer version. While some movies >> that could not play the sound properly with older version, now do not >> play well with newer version. >> >> The sound does exist but it is so crippled that it is very hard to >> understand it. >> >> All this is very frustrating. How to approach the problem? >> >> zb. >> >> > > I've had problems lately with libxine and sound synchronization on all sorts > of video files. The longer the video, the more likely it is to go out of sync, > though it's more related to time spent in playback than to file length. I > haven't bothered to debug it because mplayer works. > > Over the years I've found the mplayer engine to be more robust on the whole > than xine, even though libxine-based media players tend to be much nicer than > mplayer. Also mplayer will occasionally screw up the aspect ratio (IIRC > fixable through commandline options), but I've almost never had it fail to > play a file. Even the really nasty ones that have been transcoded umpteen > times and only barely work on Windows Media Player with an unholy amount of > CPU. > After some extra reading on from googled links (usually, a really waste of time) and experimenting, now I have two more comments. How accurate - I am not sure. 1. No good documentation on how to use mplayer. Or, rather, so many options on command line that are hard to understand that one can get crazy very fast and go back to windows rather. 2. I suspect that my video card, which is somewhat outdated (ATI Mach64/3DRag) might be the source of the problem with video. However, I am able to get sound with mplayer with movies that had sound entirely crippled when using xine. But with mplayer I do not know now how to display video! And I am able to play everything properly when viewed on Google Videos (flv files). zb. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 05:48:53 2009 From: matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Matt Price) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:48:53 -0500 Subject: xine sound crippled In-Reply-To: <49A8B964.2010702-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <499F91FE.1020508@gmail.com> <200902272224.43061.amarjan@pobox.com> <49A8B964.2010702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1235800134.24605.639.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 23:11 -0500, Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > Andrej Marjan wrote: > > Over the years I've found the mplayer engine to be more robust on the whole > > than xine, even though libxine-based media players tend to be much nicer than > > mplayer. Also mplayer will occasionally screw up the aspect ratio (IIRC > > fixable through commandline options), but I've almost never had it fail to > > play a file. Even the really nasty ones that have been transcoded umpteen > > times and only barely work on Windows Media Player with an unholy amount of > > CPU. > > > After some extra reading on from googled links (usually, a really waste > of time) and experimenting, now I have two more comments. How accurate - > I am not sure. > > 1. No good documentation on how to use mplayer. Or, rather, so many > options on command line that are hard to understand that one can get > crazy very fast and go back to windows rather. > to starat with, try launching gmlayer instead, so you have a GUI. m > > -- > The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ > TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns > How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Matt Price matt.price-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 10:51:32 2009 From: scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Scott Allen) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 05:51:32 -0500 Subject: onboard flash? In-Reply-To: <20090227204643.GK23245-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>; from lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org on Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 15:46:43 -0500 References: <1234910606.6559.4097.camel@localhost> <7c50d3570902171452u59548fafs69304ae58cc39f78@mail.gmail.com> <1235182595.1688.44.camel@localhost> <1235612765.11121.4169.camel@localhost> <3a97ef0902251814r49d9477eya9aeb8d602a4ac05@mail.gmail.com> <20090227204643.GK23245@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <20090228105132.GA1953@localhost> On Fri Feb 27,2009 03:46:43 PM Lennart Sorensen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 09:14:25PM -0500, Tyler Aviss wrote: >> Some of the VIA and Jetway mini-ITX boards do. For others you can >> use a CF->IDE adaptor (for boards that still support IDE drives). >> Not sure if there's a CF->SATA adaptor. > > CF->IDE->SATA might work. Gets silly though. A Google search with the terms: "compact flash" sata turned up a number of direct CF->SATA adaptors. In the future, CFast cards might be the way to go (if they ever become a reality). -- ** Scott Allen scotta-cpI+UMyWUv9BDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org ** ** Toronto, Ontario, Canada ** -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 17:12:19 2009 From: ivan.frey-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org (Ivan Avery Frey) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:12:19 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> <49A6D20C.9040200@ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <49A97073.9040506@utoronto.ca> Both Seneca at York and IBM on Steeles are served by express buses. There is the York University Rocket and the Steeles East Express. Mind these only apply in the early evening before the meeting starts. After the meeting is over some express service is no longer in effect. Ivan. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 17:45:16 2009 From: linux-5ZoueyuiTZhBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org (Madison Kelly) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:45:16 -0500 Subject: Presentations and presenters In-Reply-To: <1235769519.5402.45.camel@leon> References: <1235769519.5402.45.camel@leon> Message-ID: <49A9782C.60709@alteeve.com> Richard Weait wrote: > 1. Suggest a topic that you would like to attend. You may hit on a > popular and compelling topic and inspire one of our members to offer to > present. > > 2. Suggest a speaker who you would like to have at TLUG. Do you know > an expert in a FLOSS software package who is not a TLUG member? Perhaps > an amazing illustrator who uses Inkscape and Scribus? Those would make > great talks, even if, or perhaps because, the presenter is not a > programmer. > > 3. Think again about what would interest you in a presentation topic. > Have you done something recently that took more time than it might have, > had the task been illustrated at a previous meeting? Turn that in to a > talk for TLUG that will save time for us when we have to perform that > task. We want more voices to be heard at TLUG and more perspectives. If people want to throw out topics that interest them, maybe someone who feels comfortable with one of the suggested topics will take it on. I can't think of anything right now, but I feel comfortable presenting. Personally, I'd grab an interesting topic I thought I could do. Assuming of course my past presentations didn't bore people tooooo much. ;) Suggestions? Madi -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 18:50:08 2009 From: evan-ieNeDk6JonTYtjvyW6yDsg at public.gmane.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 13:50:08 -0500 Subject: NewTLUG and Seneca? In-Reply-To: <49A97073.9040506-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA@public.gmane.org> References: <49A6078A.6060204@ualberta.ca> <49A6D20C.9040200@ualberta.ca> <49A97073.9040506@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <49A98760.6010407@telly.org> Ivan Avery Frey wrote: > Both Seneca at York and IBM on Steeles are served by express buses. > There is the York University Rocket and the Steeles East Express. > To York there's also a Steeles West express (60E) and express service along Jane (35E). York is also a termnal for multiple routes of GO Transit, York Region Transit, VIVA and I just discovered that it's even served by Brampton Tramsit. More than 1600 buses a day stop at York. > Mind these only apply in the early evening before the meeting starts. > After the meeting is over some express service is no longer in effect. > The 196 express from York to Downsview Station now runs until 1am The Steeles and Jane express service doesn't run at night but the Steeles West runs pretty fast at that time. Also, I now have some access to rooms on the York campus proper which are steps away from the bus terminal in York Lanes. - Evan -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org Sat Feb 28 23:18:20 2009 From: amarjan-e+AXbWqSrlAAvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org (Andrej Marjan) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:18:20 -0500 Subject: xine sound crippled In-Reply-To: <49A8B964.2010702-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <200902272224.43061.amarjan@pobox.com> <49A8B964.2010702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902281818.20402.amarjan@pobox.com> On February 27, 2009 11:11:16 pm Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > After some extra reading on from googled links (usually, a really waste > of time) and experimenting, now I have two more comments. How accurate - > I am not sure. > > 1. No good documentation on how to use mplayer. Or, rather, so many > options on command line that are hard to understand that one can get > crazy very fast and go back to windows rather. You can ignore most of the options. One nice thing about the preponderance of options is that you can often do whatever you want with mplayer. For instance it's probably the easiest way to rip an arbitrary media stream from the Internet, once you figure out the appropriate handful of flags. > 2. I suspect that my video card, which is somewhat outdated (ATI > Mach64/3DRag) might be the source of the problem with video. I don't know why you're not seeing video with mplayer, it's Just Worked for me for years. For video, the option is -vo and allows you to select the video output driver. I don't know what works with such an old video card, but there's only so many drivers so one of them is bound to work. Some (all?) of mplayer is configurable graphically via the gmplayer GUI version. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists From john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org Mon Feb 23 14:59:13 2009 From: john.moniz-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org (John Moniz) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:59:13 -0500 Subject: xine sound crippled In-Reply-To: <49A25247.4010902-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> References: <499F91FE.1020508@gmail.com> <49A25247.4010902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A2B9C1.20004@sympatico.ca> Zbigniew Koziol wrote: > No one answered. > > Without sound and video working properly forget about linux as a desktop. > > zb. I was hoping to read some replies myself. Sound is one of the things I have a hard time getting to work properly. I would love some day to attend a NewTLUG presentation on sound (mixers, ALSA vs whatever )... just don't understand the stuff. John. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/ TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists